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UBC Publications

UBC Reports Nov 20, 1969

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UBC's Senate, accustomed to dealing with
academic matters, was confronted Nov. 12 with a
series of issues with political overtones.
I The issues, raised at a regular Senate meeting by
student members, are related to the Viet Nam war,
the situation of native Indians in B.C.'s educational
system and the sociological background of UBC's
student body.
Senate, after lengthy and occasionally heated
— refused to act on a motion calling for
endorsation of campus activities related to the Viet
Nam moratorium of Nov. 14 and which urged "all
members of the University community to participate
in the moratorium as best they can";
—approved a motion calling for a wide-ranging
inquiry on education of Indians in B.C. and their
situation at UBC, and
—tabled   a   motion   calling   for   a   study  of  the
|x>ciological background of UBC students pending a
report on the costs of such a study and who should
carry it out.
(A summary of the discussion on the Viet Nam
moratorium resolution follows. A description of the
debates on the Indian education and sociological
study questions appears in the box at lower right on
this page).
Assistant Information Officer, UBC
Miss D.J. O'Donnell, attending her first meeting as
one of 11 newly-elected student senators, put a
motion before UBC's Senate on Nov. 12 which
polarized the meeting and eventually sparked a
half-hour non-debate.
Rising after a relatively uneventful two hours of
business-as-usual Senate debate, Miss O'Donnell
moved: "THAT the Senate endorse the Viet Nam
moratorium scheduled for Friday, November 14, and
urge all members of the University community to
participate in the moratorium as best they can."
Senate now has a total of 12 student
representatives who succeeded in making their
presence felt Nov. 12. Miss O'Donnell's motion
climaxed an evening of active participation by the
student Senators, supported by some faculty
representatives, during which they consistently
delineated a stance which evoked an indignant and
vocal response from some faculty members.
"Poppycock," roared one faculty Senator as Miss
O'Donnell argued that many of the decisions made by
Senate, such as the recent one on admissions, entailed
just as far ranging "political" implications as did her
own motion.
Another faculty senator said the Nov. 12 meeting
had been much more political in its orientation than
DR. JOHN TUZO WILSON, right, the only
Canadian to acquire a piece of moon rock
from the Apollo 11 manned moon mission,
will give the Dal Grauer Memorial Lectures at
UBC on Tuesday and Wednesday, Nov. 25
and    26.   The   internationally-known   geo-
physicist is shown above with colleague Dr.
David Strangeway, who holds the moon rock
sample. A special laboratory to examine the
sample has been built at Erindale College, in
Toronto, where Dr. Wilson is principal. For
details, turn to Page Four.
Please turn to page four
See Senate
Indian Study Approved
UBC's Senate has approved a study of Indian
education in the province but has postponed for a
month a decision on a sociological study of the
student body.
Graduate student Senator Stan Persky called
for the sociological study at the Nov. 12 meeting
of Senate. And in another motion Mr. Persky
asked that the President, in consultation with the
nominating committee, set up a committee to
study the situation of Indians at UBC.
Senate quickly approved the Indian inquiry.
Prof. Cyril Belshaw pointed out that many similar
committees have been struck in the past. He said
he hoped the inquiry wouldn't be limited to the
situation of Indians at UBC but that it would
cover the general question of Indian education in
B.C. Mr. Persky agreed.
The motion for a sociological study of the
student body received rougher treatment. Mr.
Persky asked that the survey be done through the
Office of Academic Planning and that the director
of the office. Dr. Robert Clark, make whatever
arrangements he likes.
Debate revolved around two points: how much
would the study cost and what would be its
Dr. Clark said he welcomed the idea of a study
and had been trying for two years to get enough
money to hire someone to do it. Pressed by Senate
members for an estimate, Dr. Clark said he
couldn't say how much the study would cost.
Mr. Stuart Lefeaux, a Convocation Senator,
asked what the purpose of the study would be and
Dr. V.J. Okulitch, dean of the Faculty of Science,
said he saw no practical reason for the survey.
The report of the Senate Long-Range
Objectives Committee pointed to the need for a
study of this kind, Mr. Persky said, though the
committee made no specific recommendation that
a survey be made.
He cited page seven of the report:
"Unfortunately we lack the data to give an
accurate description of the sociological
background of our students. Such a study should
be undertaken as soon as possible."
Prof. R.F. Gray of Education said this kind of
information will be essential when faculties begin
their discussion of the Report. Perhaps it can't be
had soon enough, he said.
Student Senator Peter Ladner said Senate
should find out who the University serves and
what part of. the community benefits from UBC. If
the study reveals that it is predominently one
section of society, then Senate should find out
why, he said.
Prof. D.F. Hardwick moved that the motion be
tabled, saying that a month's delay to determine
how much the study would cost and who would
do it would do no harm. The tabling motion was
passed. ■&*4 -,.
- .n
UBC's Bookstore has one of the largest selections
of paperback books anywhere in North America, according
to Bookstore manager Mr. Jack Hunter, left. He is shown above with
assistants Maude Race and Barry Scott. Photo by Extension Graphic Arts.
Much of UBC's academic program revolves around
books, and the main supplier of texts, paperbacks and
supplies for students and faculty members is UBC's
oft-criticized Bookstore. To find out what makes the
Bookstore tick, UBC Reports recorded the following
interview with manager Jack Hunter, a member of the
staff for 30 years.
UBC REPORTS: Mr. Hunter, the main crit^Bi
that students have levelled at University Bookstore
over the years has been the price of text books. But
books aren't just arbitrarily priced. I wonder if you
could give us a brief explanation of the factors
involved in pricing.
MR. JACK HUNTER: Well, all publishers set a list
price on their books and from the list price we get a
certain discount.
UBC REPORTS: The list price then is a suggested
retail price.
MR. HUNTER: That's correct. Publishers can't tell
you what price to sell a book at, but they suggest a
certain price. And our retail prices are governed by
this list price because from this list price we get a
UBC REPORTS: How much of a discount do^^
get? ^^
MR. HUNTER: On text and reference books we
get 20 per cent.
UBC REPORTS: I understand that a bookstore in
downtown Vancouver that might order the same
book would get a larger discount.
MR. HUNTER: That's right. But their list price
would be higher than ours. From the higher list price
they get a higher discount.
UBC REPORTS: I see. Why do the publishers of
text and other books offer a different discount to the
University than to a downtown book seller?
MR. HUNTER: Well, the publishers have always
felt that university bookstores have a captive market
while the owner of a trade store in the city is
gambling. If the off-campus bookseller buys 15 books
he doesn't know whether he'll sell 15 books or one.
The publishers feel that a university bookstore has a
captive market, and that if you order, say, 800 books
for a certain class, you're going to sell 600 or more of
them. This is why they set a lower list price for the
university bookstores than for the trade stores.
UBC REPORTS: Does this seem to you to be a
fair policy? Has the University expressed its
unhappiness about this arrangement?
MR. HUNTER: Yes, the Canadian Association of
Bookstores, which is part of the Canadian Association
of Book Sellers, are always trying to get larger '
discounts. But we've been unsuccessful. The
publishers have so far been unpersuaded by our
UBC REPORTS: Presumably, if you got the same
kind  of discount  as downtown  book  sellers,  you
could sell the books at a lower price to students, who
generally   don't   have   a   large   amount   of   money »
available for books.
2/UBC Reports/November 20, 1969 BEHIND THE
MR. HUNTER: But on the other hand, if
university bookstores pressed for larcier discounts and
were successful, then the publisher would raise his
prices. So it's half a dozen of one and six of the
UBC REPORTS: What about the charges by
students    that    they    have   gone   downtown    and
•hased the same book from a commercial book
r at a lower price?
MR.  HUNTER:  That's hard to believe. He may
have purchased the same title in a different edition.
UBC   REPORTS:   In   other   words,   he  may  be
getting an edition that's six years old?
Mr. HUNTER: Or a cheaper paperback edition,
. such as a Bantam pocket book, for instance, at 95
cents. The one that we have is the one the professor
wants—a hard cover book at, say, $2.50. The student
may get the same title, but he's not getting the same
_^JBC REPORTS: Can you tell us something now
^Put the operations of the Bookstore? Does the
Bookstore, as has been claimed, make a profit?
MR. HUNTER: We make a paper profit. We are
charged for everything except rent and accounting
services. We have to pay our staff salaries, insurance,
telephone, etc. To get a true picture of Bookstore
operations there should be a charge for rent and
accounting services if it is to be equated with a
commercial business.
UBC REPORTS: The Bookstore is said to be a
self-supporting ancillary service of the University.
Exactly what is meant by a self-supporting operation?
MR. HUNTER: It means that we must pay ouir
way—pay all our expenses. From profits we must put
aside money for future expansion. The provincial
government will not allow the University to use
capital grants for ancillary services, such as the
Bookstore, food services, parking, etc. If we want to
plan an expansion, such as we're doing now, we have
to borrow money and repay it out of future profits.
UBC REPORTS: The Bookstore, several years ago,
instituted a rebate system of five per cent on all
purchases made in the store by students. This means
you've got five per cent less revenue now to show as
profit. This would reduce the amount you can
accumulate for further expansion.
MR. HUNTER: That's right.
UBC REPORTS: How many additions have been
put onto the existing Bookstore?
MR. HUNTER: We moved into this building in
' 1955 and since then we've put one addition on the
front or east side and two on the south side. We have
now taken up all the room that is available and we
can't expand any further on this side. And all of
those additions have been paid for out of
accumulated profits from the sale of books and
• UBC REPORTS: What plans do you have for the
MR. HUNTER: We have a joint student-faculty
committee that is discussing the construction of a
new Bookstore. We hope to get into action this
winter and that construction will start within a year.
I'd like to see a store with a sales area large enough to
allow us to carry on our business without having to
set up the book supermarket in The Armoury at the
beginning of term.
UBC REPORTS: Still, the September supermarket
in the Armoury has been a big help to students.
MR. HUNTER: A big help, yes, but very costly
because of moving all the stock, the additional staff
which has to be hired and the dismantling and moving
of stock back to the main store.
UBC REPORTS: I see. That's all charged against
your operation. You don't get any subsidy for that?
MR. HUNTER: No, none whatever.
UBC REPORTS: Has the committee given any
consideration to a site for the new Bookstore?
MR. HUNTER: I think it will be behind the
library, on the east side of the East Mall and just to
the south of Brock Hall.
UBC REPORTS: You spoke earlier about the
faculty-student Bookstore Committee. How many
people sit on that committee?
MR. HUNTER: Mr. John McLean, director of
ancillary services, is chairman. In addition there are
three professors, four students and myself.*
UBC REPORTS: Does the committee function as
a client's committee for the new Bookstore?
MR. HUNTER: Within the main committee there
is a client's committee. At other times the committee
sits as a whole to hear complaints and discuss policies.
We're concerned with the entire Bookstore operation.
The students and faculty members have been very
helpful and have made a number of suggestions which
have improved our operation.
UBC REPORTS: The Bookstore must have
problems in terms of storage and stock-taking.
MR. HUNTER: Let me give you just one example.
Four years ago we needed only one complete works
of Shakespeare. Last year we stocked 62 Shakespeare
plays. The point is that we have to do the same
amount of work for a 50-cent paperback as we do for
a $10 hard-cover book. It costs us the same amount
of money to unwrap the paperback, price it and sell
UBC REPORTS: And you have no guarantee that
all students will want all of these books.
MR. HUNTER: We have no idea which they want.
They may only buy some. They'll pair up and buy
one between them. They'll say, 'you buy this one and
"The policy-making body for the Bookstore is a president's
committee called the Student-Faculty Advisory Committee
on the Bookstore. Members of the committee, in addition to
Mr. McLean and Mr. Hunter, are: Prof. Craig Miller,
Department of English; Dr. J.E. Phillips, Zoology, and Dr.
R.G. Campanella, Civil Engineering. Student members are:
Mr. Hugh Creighton and Mr. Peter Fairchild, both fourth-year
Arts students; Mr. Alan Dobrey, fourth-year Education and
Mr. Ralph Steele, first-year Law.
exchange it with me and I'll buy another one and
exchange it with you.' Paperbacks have certainly
changed the Bookstore operation. Our sales volume is
not increasing at the rate of our inventory. Last year
we had an eight-per-cent increase in sales and a
20-per-cent increase in inventory at the end of the
year. This means that expenses are going up,
inventory is going up, but revenue is not keeping
One thing I'd like to add about costs is that
one-half to three-quarters of the books we purchase
are eventually dropped from the curriculum. We must
then return them to the publisher. Here we are forced
to pay freight charges back to the publisher. So we're
paying freight two ways, and in Canada freight costs
are just about double, going east, what they are
coming west. We pay about $6 a hundred pounds
coming west and about $11 a hundred going east.
This is an additional cost that we must pay.
UBC REPORTS: Is theft a serious problem for
MR. HUNTER: We have quite a bit of theft. Last
year we found that theft amounted to two per cent
of our total sales.
UBC REPORTS: One other criticism I've heard
over the years of the Bookstore is the lack of a wide
spectrum of magazines and foreign newspapers, such
as the New York Times, The Observer, The Times of
London and so on. Why are these not available at the
MR. HUNTER: The only reason they're not
available is the lack of space. This is one of the things
we hope to add in the new store, as well as a good
trade book section, a much larger reference book
section, hard-bounds, and more paperbacks. We have,
incidentally, one of the largest collections of
paperbacks in North America at the present time. But
there are things that we can't do in the present
UBC REPORTS: As a person who has been at
UBC for 30 years, you must have given some thought
to the purpose of a university bookstore in the
academic community for the faculty and students
and, to a certain extent, for the general public too,
because the Bookstore is open to any member of the
public who wants to come in and make use of it.
MR. HUNTER: The Bookstore should contribute
to the general process of education, not only in the
University for the faculty and students, but also in
the community. There should be facilities for general
browsing, the acquisition of books and general
reading and the Bookstore should provide faculty
members and students with books in their area of
specialization. These objectives can only be achieved
with a considerable area set aside for an extensive
collection of general trade and reference books. I
think that a good university bookstore has a lot to
contribute to education, not only in the university
but in the community as a whole.
UBC Reports/November 20, 1969/3 Senate
continued from page one
any he had ever attended and objected to what he
called "ugly political overtones."
Speaking to her motion, Miss O'Donnell said that
Senate was not being asked to support a resolution of
condemnation, but a resolution of support for a
campus moratorium to discuss Viet Nam, its history,
problems and future.
She called the moratorium a "real example of an
extra-curricular intellectual endeavour concerned
with the social reality of today's world," and said
that the moratorium was in the spirit of the
Long-Range Objectives Report, citing the passage on
page 5 which says: "More may be accomplished for
most students outside the scheduled instruction
periods than within them, through independent study
and discussion. . ."
Dr. Malcolm F. McGregor, head of the department
of classics, objected that "no matter what words the
motion is wrapped in, Senate is still being asked to
take a political stand." He said that "all the seminars
arranged portray one side of the issue" and suggested
that the motion was not the business of Senate and
was out of order.
President Walter Gage, Senate's chairman, said he
thought the motion was in order and that he could
see no reason why someone couldn't ask whether
Senate wished to endorse the motion or not.
With the motion ruled in order. Senate found itself
in the traditional democratic dilemma, which was
cogently summed up by Mr. C.B. Bourne, professor
of law. "The trouble with this sort of motion is that
you either vote for it or you vote against it," he said,
"and Senate is going to appear to be against
something if it votes it down." Mr. Bourne added that
he thought it very unwise for Senate to entertain this
sort of motion in the interests of the University.
President Gage then asked what should be done,
and Dean Philip White of Commerce and Business
Administration supplied one possible answer.
Invoking Robert's Rules of Order, Dean White
moved that Senate proceed to the next item of
business. Senate seized on Dean White's motion as a
way out of its predicament. The motion carried.
Student senator Stan Persky, as seconder of Miss
O'Donnell's motion, reacted strongly to Senate's
decision. He said that many of the issues that
students are raising are explicitly moral issues and
that for Senate to simply find a "convenient way to
by-pass the motion," without discussing it and
without voting on it, was "insulting" and "unfair."
Senate then went in camera to discuss the report
of the Tributes Committee and there the matter of
the motion to endorse the Viet Nam moratorium
seemed to rest. That was not, however, to be the end
of it.
At the end of the in camera debate Senate
resumed its open session and Dr. Sydney F.
Friedman,   head   of   anatomy,   rose   to   make   an
emotion-charged appeal, asking Senate to reconsider
its treatment of the motion to endorse the Viet Nam
He asked Senate to "think a little harder about its
position and about what the implications might be
not only to ourselves on Senate but to the kind of
posture we shall have to take with our colleagues and
with our students if we prevail in an attitude of not
wishing to discuss something which is in our world
and is therefore quite real."
He said he spoke as a member of the Senate Ad
Hoc Committee on the Student Brief, "The Future of
the University—Fair Weather or Foul?" (The Senate
Committee on the Student Brief, chaired by Dean of
Agriculture Michael Shaw, has met with students for
more than a year to discuss issues raised in the
document "The Future of Education at the
University—Fair Weather or Foul?" Senate has
received a report from the committee on procedures
for dealing with problems of student discipline and
increased student representation on Senate from four
to 12 persons on the committee's recommendation).
Dr. Friedman said that "by our refusal to discuss a
matter of great interest to the student body, apart
from its interest to faculty, we do ourselves an
injustice and we do the work of your committee a
great harm."
He then moved "THAT Senate consider and
discuss the implications and advisability of expressing
its endorsation of campus activities with regard to the
Viet Nam moratorium."
Senator Davie Fulton, the former federal Minister
of Justice, refuted any implication that Senate had
acted improperly in superseding the moratorium
He said he believed that Senate had accepted the
superseding motion because "they felt in their hearts
that this was not a proper area for Senate to be
discussing, not because we as individuals have no
concern, but because it is not a matter for the Senate
of the University of British Columbia.
"That is why rules of order and matters of appeals
of jurisdiction are not purely academic or devices but
are means of enabling busy organizations to deal with
the business that is properly before them to deal
with," he said.
Mr. Fulton added that in his view "a motion
which, whether by intent or otherwise, seeks to
involve Senate in expressing an opinion and implicit
or expressed support for a political point of view is
not one that is proper to be brought before Senate."
He pointed out that Senate's terms of reference
convey "at least by implication, if not expressly, that
this body should not be expressing opinions on that
kind of matter, because it certainly verges on the
Mr. Fulton concluded that Senate had acted
properly in superseding the motion and said that he
would not support Dr. Friedman's motion.
Grauer Lectures Set
Dr. John Tuzo Wilson, the man with the only
piece of moon rock in Canada, is this year's Dal
Grauer Memorial Lecturer at the University of
Dr. Wilson, principal of Erindale College of the
University of Toronto, will speak on "Continental
Drift: the Latest Revolution in Science" at 8:15
p.m. Tuesday, Nov. 25, in the lounge of UBC's
Totem Park residence. He will lecture on "Why
Does the Moon Not Look Like the Earth?" the
following day at 12:30 p.m. in the Hebb Theatre.
It was through the efforts of Dr. Wilson and
one of his former students, Dr. David Strangeway
who is also of Erindale College, that the college
now has a piece of moon rock and samples of
moon dust brought back by the United States
manned moon mission. A special laboratory has
been built at the college to examine the specimens.
Dr. Wilson is an internationally-honored
geophysicist. About two decades ago he showed
how the North American continent grew outward
from a nucleus in the Canadian Precambrian
Shield. He is a strong advocate of the theory of
continental drift and tries to explain what forces
would cause continental masses to drift on denser
material beneath.
Dr. Wilson believes that the Pacific Ocean floor
is moving eastward under B.C. and that the axis of
this movement is to the west of Vancouver Island.
Recent studies of the drift are in part the reason
for a joint program between UBC's geology
department and the federal department of energy,
mines and resources to document the process.
He has published three books, more than 100
scientific papers, is a member of nine scientific
societies and associations around the globe and has
visitied 160 universities in 100 countries.
This year he was elected a member of the Royal
Society of London and a foreign associate of the
National Academy of Sciences of the U.S. His
many awards include the Order of the British
Empire and the U.S. Legion of Merit.
When not travelling or working as an academic
or administrator. Dr. Wilson relaxes by walking
and through a less pedestrian pastime—sailing a
Hong Kong junk on the Great Lakes.
Dr. Wilson is the fourth Dal Grauer Memorial
Lecturer. The lectures, named for the chancellor
of UBC from 1957 to 1961, began in 1966.
Previous lecturers were economist J.K. Galbraith,
architect R. Buckminster Fuller and political
scientist and author C. Northcote Parkinson.
Dean White defended his superseding motion and
confirmed Mr. Fulton's impression that he had made
it because he felt "that politics is an area that Senate
ought to leave to other constituencies and meetings
on campus."
While apologizing for any offence he may have
given, he said that he had moved the motion to
extricate Senate from the predicament which
Professor Bourne had outlined. That was his sole
motive in moving it, he added.
Dean White noted that Senate's meeting had been
much more political in its orientation than any that
he had attended and he deplored this trend.
He said that this trend would only reduce the
usefulness of Senate and that if it continued Senate
would "get into some very bitter disputes on issues
that are not of direct consequence to the role that
Senate has in the government of the university."
"I do not believe that there is any useful purpose
at this university in this Senate debating issues of this
kind, because they are endless," he said.
Dr. A.D. Scott, economics, who seconded Dr.
Friedman's motion, said that "since the killing of the
moratorium motion, Mr. Fulton and Dean White have
debated the matter subsequently and have explained
why they felt about it the way they did."
He criticized Mr. Fulton and Dean White for not
having done so at the time and for killing off debate.
"To kill it off," he said, "is to kill off this Senate.
If a majority just refuses to discuss things, then these
things will be discussed elsewhere and decided
Stan Persky said that when the motion was raised
it had been the intention to create debate so that
some very important theoretical issues might be
raised for Senate.
He said that several people had presented exactly
the issues he wished to counter and he proceeded to_
read a long, closely reasoned statement, during which"
he   was   interrupted   by   Mr.   Stuart  S.   Lefeaux,  a
Convocation   Senator,   who   said   Mr.   Persky's
statement "tired" him.
Mr. Persky said he believed page 8, paragraph 24,
of the Long-Range Objectives report, which
recommends that Senate not involve itself in partisan
issues and that it attempt to stay neutral, reflects the
mood of Senate.
He said, however, that he felt it was proper to use
reasoned argument to attempt to persuade Senate to
his point of view, which was "to present the Viet
Nam question. . .as a particularly special case, as a
moral issue which very much dominates our times
and which we, it may be argued, have some
responsibility for attending to."
He asked Senate to reconsider its position "on the
relationship between the neutrality you say you want
as an academic institution and the moral charges that
are being made by the students. I believe there is a
difference between intelligent neutrality that deeply
takes into account moral questions and takes action
with respect to them and a neutrality which is merely
a convenient way of avoiding issues."
President Gage then said that there had been
ample discussion and asked Dr. Friedman to give the
motion again.
Dr. Friedman said that his motion asked that
"Senate consider and discuss the implications and
advisability of expressing the endorsation of campus
activities for the Viet Nam moratorium."
He said that Senate had, in fact, "considered and
discussed the implications" and that he did not see
how Senate could invalidate what it had done for the
past half hour. It had no choice but to pass his
motion, he said.
Mr. Fulton said that the discussion actually had
concerned whether external controversies should be
brought forward to Senate for discussion or not. He
said he did not think they should and that he would
vote against the motion.
President Gage put the motion. The motion was
declared lost.
Volume 15, No. 24-Nov. 20,
1969. Published by the University of British Columbia and
distributed free. J.A. Banham,
Editor; Barbara Claghorn, Production Supervisor. Letters to the Editor
should be addressed to the Information Office,
UBC, Vancouver 8, B.C.
4/UBC Reports/November 20, 1969


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