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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-06-08] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jun 8, 1989

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 17180  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 Vancouver, B.C.  2 June 8, 198 9  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  5  6 THE REGISTRAR:  In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, this  7 8th day of June, 1989.  In the matter of Delgamuukw  8 versus Her Majesty the Queen at bar, my lord.  9  10 SUSAN MARSDEN, resumed:  11  12 THE REGISTRAR:  May I remind you you are still under oath.  13 A   Yes.  14 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  Would you state your name for the  15 record, please?  16 A   Susan Marsden.  17 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  18 MR. GRANT:  Could you put Volume 1 of Ms. Marsden's expert  19 report to her in front of her, please.  And at page --  20 I believe I left at page 188.  I am at page 190 of  21 Volume 1, my lord.  22 THE COURT:  Yes.  2 3 MR. GRANT:  Or 18 9.  24  25 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT (Cont'd):  26 Q   Now, this section of your report you entitle -- you  27 are at page 189, Ms. Marsden?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   You entitle it "The Population Shifts:  Migration  30 Within the Northcoast Area", and I take it from your  31 evidence yesterday you distinguished this period from  32 what you describe earlier as it's a migration within  33 the Northcoast area itself as opposed to a migration  34 from outside the area?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And you -- just to introduce the era, you state:  37  38 "The Dispersal from Laxwiiyip.  39  40 It was during the Temlaxham period, probably near  41 its close, that the northern Gitksan area received  42 an influx of migration from Laxwiiyip.  Some of  43 these people, relatives from long ago, stayed  44 among the northern Gitksan; some stayed near  45 Temlaxham, some below Gitwingax, but many of them  46 continued on, travelling great distances in their  47 search for unclaimed land." 17181  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  THE COURT  42  A  43  THE COURT  44  A  45  MR. GRANT  46  Q  47  That is a synopsis of your conclusions out of your  reading of the oral histories and the other material,  is that right?  Yes.  And then you state:  "Others of the Laxwiiyip travelled down the  Stikine, under a glacier, to establish themselves  near the mouths of the Stikine and Nass rivers.  In both of these places, they were met by Tlingit  groups from the north coast also moving south.  From there the Laxwiiyip moved up the Nass river  to join Eagle and Wolf groups already established  on the middle Nass.  The Tlingit moved down the  coast and drove the Tsimshian established there  off the coast and up the Skeena River."  And this summation is reflected in the adaawk and oral  histories of the region, is that right?  Yes.  Now, I'd like to refer you to Exhibit 1042, if Madam  Registrar can put that in front of you.  And  specifically to tab 21.  Do you have that tab?  Uh-huh.  Is this a sketch map which reflects the description  you give in this chapter on the dispersal and the  northern dispersal, as well the Temlaxham dispersal?  Yes.  Okay.  Can you, utilizing this sketch, explain for the  court what you found?  Well, if you look in the top right-hand side you see  that there are a number of originating groups in the  Laxwiiyip area, and they consistently have fights over  fishing sites and as a result the losing groups leave.  There are groups that come under the glacier down the  Stikine, heading to the left of the map, down the --  down to the mouth of the Stikine.  Some of them  indicate that they stay at the mouth of the Stikine at  Naa'a for a period of time.  :  At where?  Naa'a, N-a-a-'-a  That's near Wrangell.  :  Near where?  Wrangell, W-r-a-n-g-e-1-1.  Is that where that star is that you have on the  island? 17182  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yes.  Yes.  That's not in the exact location.  2 Q   Yes.  3 A   There is -- once again, there is altercations over  4 food sources, and they travel further south and stop  5 at the southern most tip of the Tlingit territory in  6 the Tongasslaxse'el area,  7 T-o-n-g-a-s-s-l-a-x-s-e-'-e-1.  And one out of those  8 groups is -- actually the last one to arrive is pushed  9 back inland to Portland Canal.  That's one group.  10 There is a related group of Wolves that also travel  11 that route.  And then if you look to the top left side  12 of the map, you have the Eagles.  Among the Tlingit  13 they have Ravens and Wolf Eagles.  The southern  14 Tlingit have Wolves and the northern Tlingit have  15 Eagles.  But they just have two clans wherever they  16 are.  And the people coming from the far north are  17 Eagles and it doesn't -- it doesn't explain explicitly  18 where they come from, but the reference is at Taku,  19 which is somewhere in the northern area on the coast.  20 And they -- they join this migration that's come from  21 Laxwiiyip and are involved in the altercations that  22 take place as people are trying to find a place to  23 establish themselves.  When they reach the southern  24 part of the Tlingit territory just above the mouth of  25 the Nass, they engage in hostilities with the Frog  26 Clan there, and there is a long period of strife on  27 the coast during -- after these migrations have come  28 down and the ultimate result is that the Frog Clan are  29 dispersed from their home there.  And they spread out  30 through the Tsimshian territory and join Frog Houses  31 among the Tsimshian.  And eventually one -- one group  32 of them actually reach into Gitksan territory, but  33 that's over time.  If you look at the other -- the  34 other pattern of movement down the Skeena River, this  35 is a smaller group.  There is a small group of Wolves  36 that come down to the headwaters -- well, down the  37 Skeena and over to the headwaters of the Nass as well.  38 Q   Could I —  3 9 A  And —  40 Q   Could I just clarify, you are referring here now to  41 the dark arrows that start where it says Wolf and Wolf  42 and Frog at the top as well?  43 A   Yes.  But I'm just speaking about the Wolves at this  4 4 time.  45 Q   Okay.  Go ahead.  46 A  And they come down and those are -- that's the group  47 that forms -- that joins the Temlaxham people and 17183  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 Niislaganoos and Spokx.  Now, that line is  2 incorporated in the overall line.  The rest of the  3 movement is the Wolf and the Frog Clan and they are  4 the last wave of this migration and they come down.  5 They are fighting, but they migrate and end up  6 regrouping wherever they settle.  And they come down,  7 all the way down the Skeena and split off.  Some of  8 them go off to the Kitsumkalum valley and establish  9 themselves in the middle Nass, and some of them  10 continue on, spend some time at Metlakatla where there  11 is still insufficient food, and then continue back up  12 and join their relatives on the middle Nass there.  13 Q   Okay.  14 A  And I think that's —.  15 Q   Okay.  And you'll come -- I'll refer you back to the  16 other part where you have that crossed arrows, that  17 refers to the Temlaxham dispersal?  18 A   That's right.  19 Q   Okay.  In order do determine this migration, did you  20 look at the adaawk of a particular clan or certain  21 clans in particular?  22 A  Well, there are a large number of adaawk on these and  23 they are all inter -- intertwined.  They are in the  24 Eagle Clan adaawk and the Wolf Clan adaawk and in the  25 Frog.  And there is also an extensive body of  26 information in the Duff files and statements about  27 they are consistently called Gwenhuut,  28 G-w-e-n-h-u-u-t.  Except for the Frogs.  They are  2 9 never called that.  And so when you have them joining  30 village groups among the Tsimshian, they always refer  31 to their origins as being the Gwenhuut Eagles or to a  32 lesser extent the Gwenhuut Goats.  33 Q   Now, you state at top of page 190 of your report, if I  34 can just return you there for a moment, that:  35  36 "Although it might appear that people were trying  37 to migrate to the coast, it was not access to the  38 coast that was sought but rather a stable food  39 supply, especially salmon.  Those that could  40 return did so, in many cases consciously moving  41 upriver towards their original homeland, at the  42 same time looking for reliable, productive,  43 non-contentious fishing sites of their own, in  44 areas where they could still hunt and trap as they  45 always had."  46  47 Is that conclusion of yours reflected -- a reflection 17184  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  A  3  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  32  THE  COURT  33  MR.  GRANT  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  GRANT  36  THE  COURT  37  A  38  39  MR.  GRANT  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  47  of what you found in these oral histories?  Yes.  They state quite clearly.  For example, on page  191 --  Yes.  -- this is the one of the Wolf and Frog paired  migration.  This is a Wolf -- the Wolf group of that.  They say that "they stayed here," this is in the  Kisgagas area.  Just a moment.  You are at page 191 of your report?  In the quote, in the middle of the quote.  Yes.  "They stayed here for a time and having no  exclusive territory for their own large band, they  followed the Skeena downstream."  And they go on to explain how they build a raft and  cast themselves adrift.  And they end up at Lome  Creek, which is just above the Kitselas area there and  then they head and they are the ones that go overland  and head up to the middle Nass and that's where they  are established now.  This house group Kyexw,  K-y-e-x-w, is among the people of Aiyansh today.  A-i-y-a-n-s-h.  Now, Ms. Marsden, could you refer again to the binder  with the map in it at tab 25.  This is -- I think you  have already referred to this.  This is the "Overview  of North Coast Prehistory Project" by MacDonald and  Inglis.  Now, does this writing, did it -- was it of  any assistance when you were analysing this material?  I am sorry, where are you going now, Mr. Grant?  I am sorry, tab 25.  Of the same book?  Of the same binder, yes.  All right.  Thank you.  This is his earlier, and I think he may -- he has  adjusted the dates slightly since then.  This is MacDonald?  MacDonald, yes.  But basically -- well, as you will  see in a minute, he says basically the same thing at a  later date.  On page 45 of the article he's describing  the second period that he's -- he's designated in his  archeological work in Prince Rupert harbour and he  states that: 17185  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1    ** "About 1500 B.C. -- "  2  3 This is halfway down the page:  4  5 "-- there is a rapid midden build-up."  6  7 He's referring there to the shells, the shells --  8 people cast shells outside of their houses and it's  9 a -- it's an easy way to identify an archeological  10 site on the coast.  So the:  11  12 "rapid midden build-up, reflecting larger village  13 occupations and larger house construction and  14 probably a substantial population increase."  15  16 And then he goes on at the beginning of the next  17 paragraph:  18  19 "A large sample of burials -- "  20  21 Sorry.  Skips a paragraph and then the last paragraph:  22  23 "A large sample of burials dates to the last  24 millenium of this period.  Burial is generally in  25 a tightly flexed position either in a shallow pit  26 or a rectangular box."  27  28 Then he goes on to talk about grave goods.  And then:  29  30 "Probable ritual use of skeletons"  31  32 In Cybulski,  33  34 "and physical injuries that may be attributed to  35 intergroup hostility are encountered."  36  37 Q   Where is he talking about those finds?  I think if you  38 look at page 42 it may be of assistance.  39 A   If you look at page 44 you see the -- it's really  40 hard -- if you look up at the blowup -- the blown up  41 one, you can see the name of the sites and then his  42 range of dates for the periods.  Those are all his  43 carbon dates.  And then if you look at the map on page  44 42 you can correlate the sites that he got radiocarbon  45 dates for with the map.  46 Q   This is in the -- at the mouth or this is at Prince  47 Rupert harbour and Digby Island, in that area around 17186  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 Prince Rupert, is that right?  2 A   That's right.  There is a major site right under what  3 is now the big port in Prince Rupert.  It's -- the  4 site is totally destroyed now and that was an  5 important source of a lot of this information.  And  6 there are -- there is continuing work on Digby Island,  7 but there are a number of sites on Digby Island, one  8 of which the boardwalk site was a major source of  9 his -- his conclusions.  In fact, when I heard him  10 speak, he said that he found copper attached to wood  11 2000 years BP, which he estimated 2000 years BP and  12 that indicated to him that that was the armour of the  13 warrior.  14 THE COURT:  What does he mean at page -- is it 45 from which you  15 read?  16 MR. GRANT:  Page 45.  17 THE COURT:  Yes.  45 where he says on the first end of the first  18 paragraph under "Period II," he says:  19  20 "The subsurface bivalves of the intertidal  21 zone."  22  23 I understand all that.  He says "are heavily  24 exploited."  What does that mean?  25 A   He means that they -- there are indications in the  26 archeology that they switch -- they place more  27 emphasis on shellfish, not shellfish but clams and  28 mussels and so on in their diet.  29 THE COURT:  Is that what exploited means?  30 A   Yes.  31 THE COURT:  I would have thought the fact that they were there  32 at all showed that they had been used.  I am wondering  33 if there is some other meaning that I don't  34 comprehend.  35 A   Oh, no.  The only other use for shells that I have  36 ever heard of was to warn them of the invaders coming  37 along, because they make such a racket when they walk  38 on them.  No, I -- I don't -- I don't know why  39 archeologists use such big words for some fairly  40 simple things, but I understand that is being eaten.  41 THE COURT:  All right.  My breakfast this morning was heavily  42 exploited.  4 3 MR. GRANT:  44 Q   I would like to refer you possibly -- my lord, if I  45 can just hand this to you.  This is an excerpt from  46 the Historical Atlas of Canada, and it should be  47 inserted in as a tab 27 in that first document book. 17187  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 Now, have you reviewed this particular -- this is  2 plate 6 of the historical atlas, and of course the  3 original, my lord, is coloured and very nice and  4 larger, but the photo reproduction is what we can do.  5 Have you referred to -- what this is, my lord, I  6 should say is, this is plate 6 -- or plate 8, I am  7 sorry, and it would go like this in the photocopy.  It  8 would be one page.  And of course the second page is  9 where it says plate 8 is eastern Canada which is not  10 relevant for our purposes.  As well as the footnotes  11 around plate 8 or the notes at the end and the notes  12 of plate 6, because plate 8 says "see notes of plate  13 6."  So -- and it's an excerpt from the Historical  14 Atlas.  Now, with reference to this, this is an  15 archeological map of cultural sequences from 1000 BC  16 to 500 AD.  Is there anything on this that is of  17 significance to what you found?  18 MS. WILLMS:  My lord, perhaps the witness could say whether she  19 relied on this in her report or is this some new-found  20 knowledge to her?  21 MR. GRANT:  That's fair enough.  22 Q   Maybe you can answer my question first and then  23 explain when you came across it?  24 A  Well, in the beginning of the second paragraph they  25 reiterate what George MacDonald said about the --  26  27 "On the West Coast, villages with large shell  28 middens and plank houses were present 2000 years  29 ago.  There is also evidence for a ranked society  30 concerned with the acquisition of wealth and  31 engaging in warfare."  32  33 And then they go to to talk about the interior.  34 Q   Okay.  35 A  At the top of the first paragraph it says:  36  37 "During the period from 1000 BC to AD 500 the  38 diffusion of ideas rather than the migration of  39 people appears to have been the major mechanism  40 for cultural change."  41  42 And the arrow along the coast there, the Asiatic  43 warfare pattern, 1000 BC is down the coast from the  44 northern Tlingit right down to the -- well, if you  45 follow the area to its tip right to the tip of  46 Vancouver Island.  And that's -- that's a reiteration  47 of the statement of MacDonald that warfare is apparent 171?  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  THE  COURT  15  16  A  17  THE  COURT  18  19  A  20  21  22  **  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  THE  COURT  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  THE  COURT  42  43  MR.  GRANT  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  GRANT  46  47  in the skeletons examined by Cybulski during -- from  the period to in their archeological work.  Okay.  Now --  Excuse me.  Sorry, go ahead.  Could I have some water?  And when did you -- when did you first refer to -- if  I recall correctly, my lord, this publication didn't  come out until after the delivery of the report to my  friend.  So the answer is self-explanatory, but I will  ask the witness.  When did you first have an  opportunity to review this plate of Historical Atlas?  In the last few months.  :  Is that arrow running along the Northcoast, it says  Asiatic war --  Warfare pattern.  :  Warfare pattern,  by Asiatic?  Well, that's why I  It says:  What do you understand it to mean  tied it in with the paragraph here.  "... the diffusion of ideas rather than the  migration of people appears to have been the major  mechanism for cultural change."  Way -- the way -- are you asking me, the way I  understand George MacDonald, what he's saying there --  or I am sorry, what the atlas, the people making the  atlas say --  I am just wondering what you understand the meaning  of the word Asiatic warfare.  Well, I think that they have made connections to  the -- to the Asian Continent through these stone --  stone clubs.  But the influence is at the northern  edge of the Tlingit.  If you had a map of the whole  span of the north, you can see it's just a group of  islands going from the Alute over to Asia.  So I  understand him to mean that there are influences on  the northern peoples that come down during this time  period.  And what is that curved arrow?  Does that say  Proto-Tahltan.  No.  Proto-Taltheilei, T-a-1-t-h-e-i-l-e-i.  What does that mean?  I believe that in the chart or in the legend on  plate 8 it refers to Taltheilei as 500 BC to AD 500.  That seems to be a movement in towards the Arctic, my 17189  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  lord, if you can see the -- after Proto-Taltheilei it  goes to Taltheilei.  COURT:  Yes.  COURT:  All right.  GRANT:  And I think, my understanding is that that's further  inland from the area that's the subject --  COURT:  I think I will not worry about it.  GRANT:  I am certainly not tendering the map to talk about  Proto-Taltheilei.  COURT:  All right.  GRANT:  My lord, I would ask for exhibit -- I would ask that  this could be inserted at tab 27 of Exhibit 1042, and  be marked as Exhibit 1042-27 and that would be the --  described as the Historical Atlas of Canada, Volume 1,  plate 8, together with the notes relating to plate 8.  And I would ask that --  Well, it can only be admitted for the purpose of  being something that the witness has adopted as  supporting material for her opinion.  It can't be  admitted to prove the truth of that statement.  GRANT:  No.  That's right.  COURT:  All right.  GRANT:  And the -- I believe if I recall rightly, my lord,  that the -- that those parameters would have been  worked out some months ago with other experts.  COURT:  Yes.  GRANT:  And I understand those parameters.  (EXHIBIT 1042-27:  Historical Atlas of Canada, Volume  1, plate 8 together with notes relating to plate 8)  THE COURT  MR.  THE  MR.  GRANT:  And I would ask that -- just a second.  Exhibit or  tab 25 be marked as Exhibit 1042-25 and it would be  described as the MacDonald and Inglis article, An  Overview of North Coast Prehistory Project (1966-1980)  THE COURT:  Yes.  (EXHIBIT 1042-25:  MacDonald and Inglis article, An  Overview of North Coast Prehistory Project  (1966-1980))  MR. GRANT:  And I would ask that tab 21 be marked as Exhibit  1042-21.  MS. WILLMS:  I object, my lord.  It was just produced.  You can  see on it it's June 4, 1989.  It's clearly an opinion  and I object.  THE COURT:  21? 17190  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  14 THE COURT  15 MR. GRANT  16 THE COURT  17 MR. GRANT  1 MS. WILLMS:  Yes.  21, the copyright is in the lower left-hand  2 corner, June 4, 1989.  3 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  It was prepared by the witness on my  4 instructions to -- based on the lengthy material in  5 the report as a depiction of what is described in the  6 report that my friends have had for two years and I  7 would ask it to go in on that basis.  8 THE COURT:  Well, it can go in for the limited purpose of  9 explaining the evidence she gave assisting, I  10 understand, the evidence she gave this morning, but  11 not beyond that I should think.  12 MR. GRANT:  And assisting the evidence relating to that chapter  13 of the report.  Yes.  I think that --  Yes.  That limited purpose only.  Yes.  18  19 (EXHIBIT 1042-21: Sketch Map of Ms. Marsden re  20 Northern Dispersal and Temlaxham Dispersal dated June  21 4, 1989)  22  23 MR. GRANT:  And that tab 21 for Madam Registrar could be  24 described as the sketch map of Ms. Marsden Re Northern  25 Dispersal and Temlaxham dispersal dated June 4, 1989.  26 Q   Now, in this chapter that we're dealing with you make  27 reference to Spokx.  And I wonder if you can refer  28 to -- I will refer you to tab 21.  I am sorry, tab 19  29 Ms. Marsden, of your report and that's the tab you've  30 already observed.  My lord, it's the one you see the  31 versions of the microfilm, the typescript and Ms.  32 Marden's retyping of the typescript.  Spelling change  33 names.  34 THE COURT:  This is 19?  35 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  36 THE COURT:  Yes.  We looked at this before.  37 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  We have looked at that in terms of the type of  38 material that Ms. Marsden had to work with.  Now I am  39 asking her about the content.  40 Q   Was there information in that that was of assistance  41 to you in terms of this -- relating the sequencing of  42 this northern dispersal, if I may call it that?  43 A  Well, this is one of the sources.  It takes the -- it  44 takes it into the Gitksan area and connects it with  45 the Temlaxham period with the offshoots of this  46 northern migration establishing themselves among the  47 Temlaxham and then not really establishing themselves 17191  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 for a period of time stably and then heading up the  2 Kispiox River and eventually those people contribute  3 to the founding of the Kitwancool people.  4 Q   Now, if I can just -- you make specific reference in  5 this chapter of your report to effect of specific  6 quotes from certain adaawk and those are only excerpts  7 from some of the adaawk upon which you have relied for  8 your conclusion relating to this, is that right?  9 A   Yes.  There are a large number of adaawk on this  10 subject.  11 Q   If I could refer you to page 197.  It states -- you  12 state in the middle paragraph after referring to these  13 adaawk:  14  15 "As we have seen in these ada'ox, the groups from  16 both clans stopped for periods of time in a number  17 of locations near or with their clan relatives who  18 had preceded them in earlier times.  In most cases  19 there was no unclaimed territory in the area and  20 their relatives' territory could not support such  21 large numbers, so they moved on looking for their  22 own exclusive territory."  23  24 And that's in quotes.  That exclusive territory is  25 from the adaawk?  26 A   Yes.  The pattern is they arrive in a community.  They  27 are accepted by their clan relatives.  They don't --  28 the wars don't break out the moment they arrive, but  29 the wars break out over access to resources and so  3 0 they move on.  31 Q  32  33 "In all migration ada'ox, villages, or village  34 areas, are named as stopping places.  It is not  35 always explicitly stated that a branch of the  36 migrating group remained there as a separate  37 House, or as an amalgamated part of a House of the  38 same clan, already there.  However, an examination  39 of the Barbeau-Beynon files shows a very high  40 correlation between villages named as stopping  41 places in ada'ox and villages in which a branch of  42 the migrating group was said in the files to be  43 established in the absence of any other account of  44 their establishment in these villages, and  45 sometimes with corroborating data found  46 incidentally in files or in other ada'ox, it is  47 logical to assume that wherever a village was a 17192  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 stopping place and a related group was later said  2 to be established there, that the establishment of  3 this group occurred there at the time of  4 migration."  5  6 And that's your conclusion with respect to that, is  7 that right?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   Okay.  Now, on page 199 you refer to Saniik,  10 S-a-n-i-i-k, as the final -- as the final group that  11 left Laxwiiyip.  And is that as reflected in the  12 adaawk?  13 A   Yes.  The one that's quoted here.  14 Q   And that's the one that is quoted right after that?  15 A  16 "While at Laxwiiyip, they had a chief named  17 Saniik, and they lived alongside the Ganeda, Raven  18 and Frog, and another group of the Lax Gibuu who  19 had run away from the Ganeda and were lead by  20 Gusxaen, the  Niislaganoos Wolf Group."  21  22 That's the one that's related to Spokx.  23  24 "and lived apart from those on the Prairie."  25  26 That Prairie is a translation for Laxwiiyip.  27  28 "The Amailx Lax Gibuu, Saniik's Group,  2 9 intermarried with the Ganeda."  30  31 And then I go on to -- to describe their migrations  32 and where they end up at Portland Canal.  33 Q   And that's specific --  34 A   Tombstone Bay.  35 Q   A specific description of what one group that you have  36 described in your overview using map 1042, not 21?  37 A   That's right.  38 Q   Niislaganoos, Madam Registrar -- or Madam Reporter, is  39 N-i-i-s-1-a-g-a-n-o-o-s.  You then state that:  40  41 "Saniik and his people travelled under the glacier  42 and moved south along the coast like those before  43 them, encountering hostility all along their  44 route."  45  46 Now, his lordship has heard evidence of adaawk  47 relating to a migration of peoples under the glacier. 17193  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 Is this the -- is this what you are referring to here?  2 A   There are -- there are no other -- because all of  3 these incidents are related, they intertwine.  If you  4 look at the full body of the material, you see that  5 they are interrelated.  For example, here, they have  6 the Saniik group.  They discuss Niislaganoos group.  7 They are all intertwined.  There are no other adaawk  8 dealing with movements under the glacier besides those  9 dealing with this migration period.  10 Q   Okay.  Now, with respect to this, you conclude that on  11 page 200:  12  13 "We have moved through history, from an era during  14 which widely separated branches of the original  15 northern inland peoples enjoyed large tracts of  16 land especially suitable for large mammal and  17 beaver hunting -- "  18  19 And to pause there, are you referring there to the era  20 that's reflected on map, the large map one?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q  23 " -- to a second era in which hunting people also  24 sought a stable supply of salmon."  25  26 And here you are referring to this period of time that  27 you are describing in this chapter?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q  30 "Prime large territory was no longer available, so  31 those migrating along the Nass and Skeena rivers  32 could either ally or amalgamate themselves with  33 existing groups, or acquire unclaimed territory  34 that was neither exceptionally large nor  35 exceptionally desirable.  The occasional small  36 river valley was still unclaimed but for the most  37 part the only land to be claimed for this era was  38 on the middle Nass River above Gitwinksihlxw.  The  39 greatest influx of population along the Skeena and  40 the Nass river at this time seems to have taken  41 place in this area, at what is now sometimes  42 called the headwaters of the Nass."  43  44 And if you could just use map 21, Exhibit 1042-21, I  45 would like it if you could just mark approximately  46 where you were referring to there.  Can you -- that  47 great influx. 17194  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  Q  3  THE  COURT  4  A  5  6  7  THE  COURT  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  THE  COURT  14  15  16  A  17  THE  COURT  18  A  19  20  THE  COURT  21  A  22  MR.  GRANT  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  This area here.  You can make a circle in red.  :  You are calling that the headwaters of the Nass?  Well, Nass -- I'm not, but it's quite confusing,  sometimes people do refer to this area as the  headwaters of the Nass.  :  Where is the headwaters of the Nass on this map?  Well, the real head -- the absolute ultimate  headwaters are these two branches here.  See where the  Stikine comes down, that is the Stikine headwaters and  the Skeena headwaters and the Nass headwaters all come  together at Laxwiiyip.  :  So what your description of the headwaters of the  Nass where your red circle is is really almost at  tidewater?  It's the middle Nass -- well --  :  Is it tidewater here?  Yeah.  This is where it comes over from Kitwancool  there and this probably about the boundary there.  :  You mean just north of Kitwancool?  Circle is probably a little big.  Okay.  Maybe you could just put an "X" in the rough  area.  Marked an "X" in a circle in red on the exhibit  for the record.  Now, would that be -- just to place  it, it's at -- where was that in relation to, say,  Cranberry Junction?  It's Cranberry Junction being  north of Kitwancool, is that in that area?  Yes.  You come up through Kitwancool and go up  Cranberry and you get to Aiyansh and the area I am  referring to is in the Gitlaxdamks Aiyansh.  And what you have described in that area about this  territory and the change and also the very few places  that appear open is what you found from the statements  of origin and the adaawk in the statement I have just  quoted to you?  Yes.  Well, in all the other incidents they either  amalgamate with another House, with another -- they  don't amalgamate with the House.  They join their clan  relatives and form a House in an already existing  village.  Okay.  And the same page 202, if I could just refer  you, you state:  "The northern inland peoples who settled in the  Northcoast area arrived with a clearly defined  sense of territorial ownership.  They claimed -- " 17195  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2 And I am at the bottom of that page, my lord.  3 THE COURT:  Yes.  4 MR. GRANT:  5 Q  6  7 "They claimed large tracts of virgin land which  8 they identified by the river, or part of the  9 river, that flowed through it.  Thereafter, their  10 ownership was inalienable.  It is clear from the  11 adaawk, from other origin accounts, and from  12 people's statements, that there was generally  13 acknowledged law, divine law, concerning  14 territorial ownership.  People frequently say,  15 'The creator gave us this land.  No one can take  16 it away.'"  17  18 Here, when you talk about the law and the ownership,  19 you are talking about within the laws of the  20 aboriginal groups of the -- that were in the area, is  21 that right?  22 A   Yes.  23 MS. WILLMS:  There is a quote, "People frequently say."  I  24 wonder if the witness could say which people  25 frequently say that?  What adaawk we can find that in?  26 A  What page are we in?  27 MS. WILLMS:  203, "The Creator gave us this land.  No one can  28 take it away" is in quotes.  What adaawk can we find  29 that in, please?  30 A   I am referring to people, Gitksan people there and to  31 numerous public gatherings where I have heard that  32 said and talking to people.  It's very commonly said.  33 MR. GRANT:  34 Q   Okay.  And it's also said by some of the witnesses in  35 Commission Evidence who you've heard?  36 A   Yes, that's right.  As the following quote is from  37 Thomas Wright in his Commission Evidence.  38 Q   Right.  On page 204 -- I would just in terms of  39 editing time, my lord, I would just ask your lordship  40 to highlight for your reference the paragraph at the  41 bottom of 203 and the top of 204 of the witness just  42 to -- I will go into the next -- in that paragraph you  43 describe what you found as well with respect to the  44 adaawk and how the people acquired it.  You explained  45 what you said earlier, is that right?  46 A   On the second paragraph on 204?  47 Q   Just referring to the first paragraph.  Now I will go 17196  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  to the second paragraph on 204, and you state:  "The dispersal from Laxwiiyip was the last  significant wave of migration from the north prior  to contact.  It marked the end of an era in which  migration on such a large scale was possible."  And why do you say that?  A  Well, after that the population appears to increase  and the areas become more densely populated generally.  Q   I'd like to turn you now to page 206.  THE COURT:  Well, just in order to get a framework on this, what  do you fix as the date of the dispersal from  Laxwiiyip?  A   It takes place over quite a period of time.  For  example, some of the groups that start out in the  Laxwiiyip are speaking Tlingit when they are dispersed  among the Tsimshian, so there is obviously a time  period, but in broad terms I put it prior to the  Temlaxham dispersal.  But not -- not long before the  Temlaxham dispersal.  MR.  GRANT:  Q  Is there reference in the adaawk relating to Temlaxham  of people from the Laxwiiyip dispersal at Temlaxham  prior to the Temlaxham dispersal?  A   That's what I have said.  Q   Yes.  A   There are also -- well, I will come to that after.  Q   And then there is things you found at the time of the  Temlaxham dispersal that also aided you in pre-dating  it?  A   That's correct.  Q   Okay.  Now, I'd like to refer you to page 206 where  you commence your discussion of the dispersal from  Temlaxham.  "The last phase of the Laxwiiyip dispersal might  also be considered the first phase of the  migration from Temlaxam.  Two Houses of the  Wolf Clan from Laxwiiyip had settled at Temlaxam.  Of this group, some at least, arrived during this  most recent era of migration, while others may  have been established there from the earlier era.  Some of these Wolf Houses then moved on again,  before the general Temlaxam dispersal."  And you then -- 17197  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  3  Q  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  THE  COURT  11  MR.  GRANT  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  GRANT  14  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  GRANT  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  40  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  47  That's what I was referring to when we looked at the  Spokx adaawk.  Okay.  If I could just have a moment, my lord.  Mrs. Johnson, Antgulilbix, again gave evidence in the  court about the snowfall.  That's in Volume 11, around  page 6 -- 667 and following.  And following with  respect to the adaawk of, I believe it was a boy who  mocked the fish.  You are familiar with that adaawk?  Yes.  Maidens, I think.  The Mediik adaawk was maidens.  Oh.  That's a different one.  Yes.  The Mediik adaawk is what, the maidens were at  Seeley Lake, is that right?  :  Oh, yes, you are quite right.  And that occurred in relation to the dispersal from  Temlaxam that occurred prior to the dispersal, is that  right?  That's right.  Immediately prior.  That's the Mediik adaawk?  I thought you were talking about the boy with the  fish.  Okay.  The boy -- okay.  The boy with the fish  occurred immediately prior to the dispersal from  Temlaxham?  Yes.  And the Mediik adaawk of the maidens occurred sometime  before that?  That's right.  During the occupation at Temlaxham.  Now, you make reference in your -- in your description  here of the dispersal from Temlaxam.  You make  reference to these adaawk, that is the adaawk of the  snowfall, other versions than, of course, Mrs.  Johnson's?  Yes.  There is -- this is -- there are a fair number  of adaawk on this particular event.  Okay.  Now, can you refer again to the map at tab 21  and just summarize what you found regarding the  Temlaxam dispersal and what you describe in this  chapter?  If you look at the asterisk in the general area of  Temlaxham.  Uh-huh.  The dispersal takes place down river to Gitsegukla.  One group goes over and joins the Wet'suwet'en and one  goes north -- well, a number go north to found 17198  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  THE  COURT  17  A  18  THE  COURT  19  A  20  21  22  23  24  25  MR.  GRANT  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  THE  COURT  33  A  34  35  MR.  GRANT  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  Kispiox, and another goes west to -- well, a number go  west to found the groups that eventually become the  Kitwancool.  And this is also the time of the founding  of Gitsegukla.  Both Kispiox and Gitsegukla were not  in the exact locations that they are now, but this is  when they start to call themselves by those names.  And then the line continues on past Gitsegukla and  down to Kitselas where a number of other members of  that group establish themselves in the canyon.  And  then the crossed broken lines indicate the later  movement and spread down on the lower Skeena with a  number of houses on the lower Skeena and with the  creation of Gitxahla, G-i-t-x-a-h-1-a.  Kitkatla,  K-i-t-k-a-t-1-a, is the English word.  On Porcher  Island.  :  English word for what?  For Gitxahla.  :  All right.  And where do you say that is?  It's on Porcher Island.  They didn't establish  themselves exactly where Kitkatla is today.  And they  weren't -- they only had a central location for their  feasting when they first moved to the coast.  They  used Pit Island as well at that time.  And that's  south of -- south of Porcher.  Could I -- could I just stop you for a moment.  Could  you just put a one in the area of Kitselas what you  are referring to, and I note this is an approximate  sketch map.  Well, the canyon is actually up above.  One with a circle there.  :  That's Kitselas, is it?  That's -- yes.  And here they come over to Porcher.  What do you want here?  Yeah.  Just a two with a circle.  That's not exact location.  Thank you.  And that's the founding of the House of Tsiibasaa.  That final step.  Now --  Now, it's interesting what you can see what's the time  period when they reach Kitselas, the period of  hostilities on the war is taking place.  The Tlingit  have not -- the people pushing down from the north  have not amalgamated with the Tsimshian at this point.  They've actually come down and pushed Tsimshian people 17199  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  living on the coast, up the Skeena River, and it's  during the time that Tsiibasaa -- sorry, that the  Kitselas people established themselves and that's  several centuries, that the coastal people regroup and  start to push these northern people back north.  And  when Tsiibasaa arrives on the coast, the Tlinget are  still a problem.  They refer to them as the  Gidaganits, these people pushing down from the north.  And Tsiibasaa is one of the -- is involved in one of  the last battles with these invaders from the north,  and pushing -- and they are pushed back to beyond  Dundas Island.  Q   Would you mind giving us the spelling for the name of  the group from the north?  A   G-i-d-a-g-a-n-i-t-s.  So that gives you a sense of the  interweaving of these two -- these two time periods.  And after they are pushed back, that's when some of  the -- some of them go back north and some of them  simply become Tsimshian and that's when the Frog Clan  head up the Skeena River and end up joining the  Kitselas, the House of Koom, K-o-o-m, which eventually  has an off-shoot in Wii hlengwax among the Gitksan.  W-i-i h-1-e-n-g-w-a-x.  Q   Now, I just want to be clear where you have this star  up at the junction and possibly we can mark that with  a -- that's the location of Temlaxham, is that right?  In this area right there?  The rough location, yeah.  I am just going to mark that with a T, my lord,  because there is a number of stars on this sketch.  Yes.  A T in red for the record.  Now, going out from that  in a fan, and I just want to be clear, there is an  arrow going west, not following the Skeena, and what  are you reflecting there?  I know you have already  described each of these.  I just want to make sure  which group that is.  A   That is both a Wolf and a Frog group that contribute  to the founding of Kitwancool.  Q   Okay.  THE COURT:  Well, are you suggesting by this map that the  occupants of the Nass were original migrants from  Temlaxham?  You seem to have two branches, one from  Kitselas north and the other one making the big circle  to out towards where Prince Rupert is now and then  back up what appears to be the Nass Valley.  A  Q  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  Q 17200  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  THE  COURT  9  A  10  THE  COURT  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  MR.  GRANT  17  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  GRANT  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  GRANT  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  31  THE  COURT  32  33  MR.  GRANT  34  35  36  THE  COURT  37  MR.  GRANT  38  39  40  THE  COURT  41  42  MR.  GRANT  43  THE  COURT  44  Q  45  46  47  Well, those -- those really thick black lines are all  the dispersal from Laxwiiyip.  And -- and actually I  think there is a quote in my report describing this  group as they describe it among the Nisqa', but no,  it's not the -- it doesn't constitute the Nisqa'  people.  It's simply the last large group to join the  Nisqa' people.  Already.  There were others there before them?  Yes.  All right.  There were so many arriving there and they were Wolf  and Wolf Eagles and they divided themselves into two  groups so that they could legally inter-marry because  there weren't other clans in that area on the Nass for  them to marry with.  And, my lord, the thin line with the cross-hatching  is the Temlaxham one.  Even though the --  Yes.  -- thick dark line parallels it.  Yes.  There is a different time sequence between those two  lines?  The dark black lines are the first one.  Okay.  And then -- yes, and then the cross-hatched lines are  the Temlaxham dispersal.  Could I have the ancient Fireweed Exhibit 1043 put in  front of the witness.  And I refer you here to, Ms.  Marsden, to tab 28.  :  Can you excuse me just for a moment, Mr. Grant.  All  right.  Thank you.  Where are we going now?  : The summary Exhibit 1043, adaawk -- summaries of the  adaawk of the ancient history of the Gisgas, tab 28.  This is an adaawk.  :  I am sorry, I haven't caught up yet.  :  Okay.  I am sorry.  It's one we did refer to  yesterday.  That's the one, my lord, the one with the  chart on it.  :  Oh.  All right.  Yes, all right.  And which number,  please?  :  Tab 28.  :  Thank you.  Now, Ms. Marsden, this is -- appears from the top this  is an adaawk recorded by William Beynon in 1948/49  with Heber Clifton of Hartley Bay and it's entitled a  "Migration Down the Skeena River."  Can you with 17201  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  GRANT  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  THE  COURT  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  MR.  GRANT  44  Q  45  A  46  MR.  GRANT  47  THE  COURT  reference to this adaawk amplify on what you have been  talking about with this dispersal from Temlaxham?  All right.  This Heber Clifton was one of the better  informants.  He usually gave a full, rather detailed  account of whatever he was talking about.  On page two  we have the -- page one and the top of page two deal  with the events with the fish and the snowfall.  Just a moment.  You are looking at the original --  Oh, I am sorry.  -- rather than the summary, aren't you?  Yes.  The original.  So the summary is in the small type, my lord.  :  Yes.  I have it.  But the original starts after that and that's what the  witness is referring to.  Page two of the original.  Number 48 appears "Migration Down the Skeena River."  :  Yes.  He says just at the middle of that last paragraph:  "Let us leave this place and go elsewhere, before  we all perish.  At once this chief, who was Tsiibasaa and all his  brothers got ready to depart.  They stepped out of  their houses and went down the Skeena River until  they reached Gitsegyulka.  Here they found that  everything was as in the summer.  So they stopped.  Tsiibasaa and his brothers in this household were  very numerous.  Some of them said, 'We must not  stay here.  Let us go down the river to some other  locality.'"  And then he goes on:  "Not all of Tsiibasaas' brothers and families  followed.  Some elected to remain where they were.  Others chose to go up the river. So this was the  occasion of their separation at Temlaxham."  This is on the top of the page three, is that right?  Yes.  Do you have it, my lord?  Yes. 17202  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   I am trying -- I am sorry I am hesitating.  I am  2 trying to edit out as many of the Indian words as I  3 can.  So Tsiibasaa who is accompanied by his brothers  4 and many of his nephews went down the river.  They  5 first stopped at Gitsalasxw.  So there we have  6 Gitsegukla, Gitsalasxw and the ones that chose to go  7 up -- upriver from Temlaxham.  "Here several of his  8 nephews stayed behind," and he gives their names,  9 "while the others kept on travelling down the river."  10 They went on until they reached the mouth of the  11 Skeena.  Here some more of the brothers separated.  12 Aegwilaxha, A-e-g-w-i-1-a-x-h-a, went northwards with  13 his family until they came upon the Gisparhlaw'ts,  14 G-i-s-p-a-r-h-1-a-w-'-t-s.  That's -- that's in the  15 Metlakatla area, just above the mouth of the Skeena.  16 And Gyaehluk went with his group to the Git'andaw.  17 G-y-a-e-h-1-u-k.  And Git'andaw is G-i-t-'-a-n-d-a-w.  18 And if you remembered yesterday or the day before, I  19 said Git'andaw was in the Kitselas area.  They had two  20 villages: their winter village and their summer  21 village.  They were the original chiefs of these two  22 tribes before the Lax Xskiik Eagles came.  Tsiibasaa  23 and his other brothers travelled south until they came  24 upon what is now the Gitrhahla, G-i-t-r-h-a-h-1-a,  25 section.  That's Gitxahla, each with its own small  26 household.  And then he goes on to talk about the  27 establishment of Tsiibasaa.  Then on page four -- oh,  28 I am sorry, I have skipped the founding of the  29 Gitxahla here.  At a slightly later date, in the last  30 second last line on page three, one of the lesser  31 chiefs among them who had a large group of his -- had  32 a large group of his own and he set off -- I am on top  33 of page four now -- to found a territory of his own,  34 they came upon the Wolves at Gixa'ta, at the mouth of  35 the river of the same name, and here they allied  36 themselves with these people.  37 Q   Then the next -- I am sorry, the next paragraph refers  38 to:  39  40 "At Gitsegukla there still remained many of the  41 other branches of the Tsiibasaa clan."  42  43 A   That's right.  And then he goes on to narrate at  44 length the second dispersal from Gitsegukla of  45 'Wiiseeks who goes all the way down to the coast to  46 join Tsiibasaa.  47 Q   You recall the other day when you were referring to, I 17203  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  THE  COURT  15  A  16  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  GRANT  19  20  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  GRANT  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  GRANT  25  26  27  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  GRANT  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  GRANT  32  THE  COURT  33  MR.  GRANT  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  GRANT  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  47  believe it was the Gitxahla file of Duff where he  actually had some arrows from Temlaxham to Gitsegukla  and then arrows of 'Wiiseeks?  Yes.  Those -- he was -- he was trying to portray  those two movements.  That's -- he was dealing with the same movements as  are described here?  Yes.  Yes.  It's the same.  Okay.  Now, I'd like you to refer to the chronology of  the "Men of Mediik" at tab 1042-26, which we referred  to yesterday, for different reasons.  Do you have  that?  It's the same as the map.  It's just a  different tab number.  Yes.  Tab 25?  Maybe I have got wrong -- I am in this book,  still.  No.  26.  Just a moment, my lord.  I have just put in 27 so  that it's not lost.  And it's -- okay.  Can you --  with reference to that, does that --  I am sorry, where are you, Mr. Grant?  At tab 26, my lord, of Exhibit 1042.  Yes.  And I am a number of pages in.  The page starting  "Chronology of Events In 'Men of Mediik' and 'Wars of  Mediik.'"  "Men of Mediik" and "Wars of Mediik," my  lord, is 898.  What number, please?  The "Men of Mediik"?  Yes.  It's Exhibit 898.  Thank you.  And it's entitled "Mediik" by Will Robinson.  Yes.  Now, I am not certain off the top of my head whether  that is -- it's at tab 2.  It may be that the binder  is Exhibit 898, and that's tab 2.  Okay.  Now, with  reference to the chronology, do you wish to have the  Mediik in front of you?  No.  Okay.  With reference to the chronology, can you just  refer there to how it assisted you in terms of the  Temlaxham dispersal?  Well, this is a good example of -- we have just read  of the movement of these people after leaving  Temlaxham, summarized by Heber Clifton in a way that 17204  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 adaawk do a lot.  And if you refer to the same events  2 in the "Men of Ma — " in the war — sorry, in "Men of  3 Mediik", you have after the establishment of Kitselas,  4 centuries passing before Tsiibasaa then moves on and  5 establishes himself on the coast.  So that's an  6 indication that large time spans can be covered in an  7 adaawk.  The important thing that they are relating  8 there is where they came from, where they passed  9 through, where their relatives stayed and where they  10 ended up.  11 Q   And just to be clear, you are referring there to entry  12 number six on the first page of the Chronology of  13 Events in Mediik?  14 A   That's right.  15 Q   And then the parenthetical "centuries" which comes out  16 of the "Men of Mediik"?  17 A   That's correct.  18 Q   And then the next description of War of Gitsalasxw  19 (Giskaast) on --  20 A  Well, there is a period of war there before Tsiibasaa  21 moves down.  The big time span of centuries.  If you  22 look on page two --  23 Q   Yes.  24 A   -- Tsiibasaa and Seeks resettle at Gitxahla, at the  25 top there.  So the actual time spans indicated are  26 centuries years past and many generations -- no.  27 Sorry, centuries and years past before Gitxahla is  28 established.  So the period of wars and then the  29 establishment of Gitxahla follows centuries of  30 establishing Kitselas.  31 Q   Okay.  Now, just to put us into the time we're talking  32 about now, where on this chronology is the dispersal  33 from Temlaxham?  That is, where does it fit into this?  34 A   Oh, number three.  Famine and migration from  35 Temlaxham.  36 Q   Okay.  Thank you.  So within that chronology grouping  37 of Mediik the establishment of Gitsalasxw and the use  38 of the Gilhaast territory comes within the same time  39 period as the dispersal from Temlaxham in general  4 0 terms?  41 A   Yes.  They spend some time with Gaak, with the Eagles.  42 But it's not indicated the extent.  Probably only  43 years.  44 Q   Okay.  Now, can I return you now to page 218 of your  45 report.  I will be referring back in a few moments to  46 the -- to one of the sketch maps here.  So I'll leave  47 this here.  Page 218 of your report, and you talk here 17205  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 about the founding of Kispiox, and you state:  2  3 "According to Solomon Johnson, the founders of  4 Kispayaks were:  5 1.  Gitluudahlxw."  6  7 G-i-t-1-u-u-d-a-h-l-x-w.  8  9 "2.  T'elgamuux"  10  11 T-'-e-1-g-a-m-u-u-x.  And that's the same chief's name  12 with a different spelling of the first name in this  13 action, right?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q "3. Ma'us"  16  17 M-a-'-u-s., and:  18  19 "4. Xantxw,"  20  21 X-a-n-t-x-w.  And in brackets after that "Kwiiyeehl,"  22 K-w-i-i-y-e-e-h-1.  23  24 "These chiefs argued amongst themselves as to who  25 would be head chief of this now independent tribe.  26 They called  27  28 5. Geel, from Kisgagas and made him head chief.  29 The next to come was Xhliimlaxha, Lax Gibuu chief  30 from Gitwinhlkul."  31  32 Now, this information came from Soloman Johnson, but  33 it's also reflected in the Duff files on Kispiox, is  34 that right?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Now, you go on on page 225.  37 A   Can I just go back to that Xhliimlaxha.  That's an  38 interesting --  39 Q   Yes.  40 A   Xhliimlaxha is not generally considered to be from  41 Kitwancool.  What's being referred to there is that  42 Xhliimlaxha is in part related to that Spokx  43 Niislaganoos group.  And during that Temlaxham period  44 when they went up the Kispiox River, some came back  45 and established themselves in Kispiox and others  46 established themselves in Kitwancool.  So that's what  47 that refers to is their -- their membership in that 17206  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  group.  Now, what I would like you to do, Ms. Marsden, is to  go back to the ancient Fireweed adaawk, the one that  is on your left-hand side there.  And in front of the  table of contents I have referred you to this.  :  What number is that, Mr. --  :   It's Exhibit 1043, and it's the adaawk of the  Fireweed summaries.  You were looking at it with the  Clifton adaawk.  :  Yes.  What number?  Now, right after the chart of Ancient History of the  Giskaast that you did, Ms. Marsden, in which you have  ordered these adaawk in this binder, the next page  which I already alluded you to was the chiefs of  Temlaxham origin.  And this is a sketch map that you  described that you did and except for the change that  you have made of Gitangwalk that it should be on the  river to the left.  What does -- what is the  relationship of this to the dispersal of from  Temlaxham?  :  Well, I have a note that this map shows the end  result of the dispersal from Temlaxham 2800 to 3200  BP.  :  If you have that note the witness has already given  it and that's -- that's fine.  :  I am sure that --  :  It wasn't put in yours especially.  Fine, my lord, I  didn't have that note on the map.  :  It's suspiciously in my handwriting.  :  Yes.  I believe that's right when we were dealing  with that.  And then you go on on page 225 of your report to state  this :  "By the end of the dispersal from Temlaxham, all  the major villages of the Gitksan prior to contact  had been founded except Gitwingax and Gitanmaaxs,  although their exact locations may have since  changed."  And you are referring here to Galdo'o, Kisgagas,  Gitsegyukla, and Kispayaks and Gitwinhlkul.  "The composition of these villages was also  established for the most part, with only minor  subsequent migrations, in each case with a group 17207  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 leaving or joining a House established there.  2 However, there were still small settlements  3 throughout Gitksan territory, as, for example,  4 that of 'Noole at the canyon, or the northern  5 settlement at Blackwater.  Clearly people were  6 free to establish themselves within their  7 territory wherever they deemed it suitable."  8  9 And that's your conclusion from reading these adaawk?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Isn't that right?  12 A   The dispersal, they don't -- for example, the  13 formation of the Village of Kitwancool takes place  14 over a period of time.  These -- the Gitsegukla and  15 Kispiox move, although they are basically stable.  16 Galdo'o, for example, was an ancient village that was  17 found and then people moved to Gitangasx and more  18 resent date back to Galdo'o, so there is, you know --  19 there is variation over time, but these villages have  20 been found by this time.  Well, these -- Kitwancool is  21 founded by the end of the dispersal.  22 Q   Okay.  I take it it's your conclusion that if one --  23 if one had been alive at the time after the dispersal  24 and had gone to the general vicinities of where each  25 of these villages is now, one would have found a  26 village there.  That's what you are describing?  27 A   Except for -- no.  What I am saying here is that by  28 this time these villages had been founded.  I am not  29 saying that these villages were occupied at this time.  30 There was movement back and forth in some cases.  31 Q   Okay.  Now, you describe:  32  33 "that the present system of exclusively-owned  34 House territories within a clan territory has  35 evolved since dispersal."  36  37 at the bottom of page 225, and the top of page 226:  38  39 "Until then, a large area occupied by two or more  40 clans constituted a people within the Gitksan,  41 Gitangasx, for example."  42  43 Can you just expand on what you are referring to  44 there?  45 A  Well, in the adaawk after the dispersal you start to  46 get references to -- and also in the file, the  47 territory files by -- that Duff has collected for all 1720?  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  Q  of the Tsimshian and Nisqa and Gitksan people you  start now to get a subdividing of larger areas of land  into House group territories.  Now, at page 9166 of the transcript -- this is Volume  14 4, my lord.  9166?  Page 9166.  Volume 44, one --  Volume 14 4.  Yes.  Commencing lines 15 through to 28, I will read you the  evidence of Mr. Gottesfeld.  He's talking about a  landslide event at Chicago Creek.  I am sorry, I am  starting at line four:  "Q     From your general review of the landslides  in the study area --"  And this is the area around Hazelton,  "      -- is this the largest event in the study  area?  A     This is the largest event in the map area.  Q     Now --  A     To say at least the composite fan at Chicago  Creek is the largest feature and, assuming  that the 3580 year event, the 3600 year-old  landslide, occupied all or most of the area  now covered by younger deposits, it would  have been the largest event in the area.  Q     And can you tell us from your studying of  this event whether or not it was a single  landslide event or a production of several  events?  A     Well, there is a number of events visible on  the Chicago Creek fan of different ages.  I  believe that that event did about 3600 years  which formed the lobe that blocked the  Seeley Creek and diverted Chicago Creek, I  believe that was a single event; that one  can walk across the deposit, examine it in  various places, and it hangs together as a  single map unit, similar soil development  throughout.  At least one can be sure that  it is all of similar age and that there are  no topographic expressions, no surface 17209  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 expressions of different lobes within that  2 area.  3 Q And based upon your observation, what effect  4 had this debris lobe on Seeley Lake?  5 A That debris lobe diverted Chicago Creek and  6 dammed the outlight of Seeley Lake.  7 Q And would that account for rise of water  8 level on Seeley Lake?  9 A I am quite sure it raised Seeley Lake by two  10 or three meet metres."  11  12 Now, earlier on Dr. Gottesfeld had been asked if --  13 and he assumed that if the adaawk -- and he's  14 referring here to the Mediik adaawk.  He seems that --  15 it seems like it's a distinct possibility that if  16 something -- some extraordinarily impressive event had  17 been happening and had happened and if the adaawk and  18 oral history accounts reflect things that have  19 happened in the past and such things might well have  20 been talked about today, and he was operating on --  21 there was an objection and it was an assumption that  22 the "Men of Mediik" narrative with respect to the  23 Mediik adaawk was true in the event that occurred at  24 that time.  Now, is it consistent with what you have  25 found in terms of the sequencing of events up to this  26 point that the largest events in the area of Temlaxham  27 and if -- the largest event in the area of Temlaxham  28 being a landslide, a blockage of Seeley Lake and the  29 landslide down Chicago Creek occurred in about 3600  30 years before present, is that consistent with your  31 timing of the dispersal of Temlaxham.  32 MS. WILLMS:  Well, I object, my lord.  I understand that the  33 dispersal from Temlaxham by this witness is based on  34 that, based on the landslide which Dr. Gottesfeld  35 described as very large and brown and roaring, that  36 the landslide was a grizzly bear, I assumed that that  37 is what this witness is assuming and that's how she  38 dated it.  She hasn't indicated any other independent  39 dating from this area.  It's not in her report anyway.  40 So I object.  41 MR. GRANT:  There is dating in the witness' report and the first  42 thing -- but I am asking for sequencing.  43 THE COURT:  I thought I asked her the other day, she said yes,  44 that's what the basis for that dating.  45 MR. GRANT:  Yes, but I asked if this is consistent with the  46 sequencing of events.  47 THE COURT:  Oh, I think that's a different question.  You are 17210  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  talking about sequencing.  That's right.  And that's what I was asking, if that  dating is consistent with sequencing of the events  which she described in her report.  Which is what  she's --  I think the problem with that, Mr. Grant, is that  she has already included the date in her description  of the sequence.  So there isn't anything to be  consistent, whether it's equally of the same thing or  equal to each other.  I suppose what you're asking is  is it consistent with the sequence that you have  discovered in the adaawk for there to have been an  event of the kind Dr. Gottesfeld described at 3500 --  3600.  3600 BP.  I suppose that's what you're asking.  That's right.  Well, I think she has already told you that.  If you --  She has it right in her chronology, 3500.  It's  written right in there somewhere.  I'd like to get Exhibit 844.  Should we take the morning adjournment.  Oh, certainly, my lord.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED PURSUANT TO MORNING BREAK)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Laara Yardley, Official Reporter,  United Reporting Service Ltd. 17211  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE REGISTRAR:  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  Q  MR.  MR.  MR.  Mr.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 11:20)  Order in court.  Grant.  A  Q  A  Thank you, my lord.  Miss Marsden, I'm referring you  to Exhibit 884, which is in front of you, and it is  the report of Sylvia Albright on archaeological  evidence of Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en history, and I  specifically refer you to table 5, and table 5 refers  to the Kitselas Canyon, the Paul Mason site at which  is dated at 3200 BP, and it's referred to in that  chart as a village site.  Are you aware of that -- of  that dating?  Yes.  And is the dating of a village site at Kitselas at  2300 BP consistent with your sequencing of the  dispersal of Temlaxam?  Yes.  That general area was occupied for a long time,  but there are no accounts of villages within the  canyon until the arrival of the people from Temlaxam.  Thank you.  That's table 5 of Exhibit 884 which  refers to that.  WILLMS:  My lord, I should point out, my friend put the  table from the final copy, and when Miss Albright was  cross-examined on the draft she acknowledged that the  Paul Mason site was from 3600 to 3200, not as depicted  on table 5, so I don't know whether that affects the  witness' answer that there is a village, according to  Copeland, from 3600 to 3200. Maybe it doesn't affect  her opinion at all.  GRANT:  Could you just give me the page reference there?  WILLMS:  It's page 10565, January 12th, 1989, volume 165,  lines 12 down to 32, where Miss Albright acknowledges  that her lines are out a couple of hundred years, that  they're not meant to be precise.  MR. GRANT  MR.  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Thank you, Mr. Willms, I had that noted, and I don't  have the transcript here.  Mr. Willms is just  referring to his.  And if -- are you aware of the  Copeland findings at Kitselas?  Yes.  And if the range of years for the finding of the  village site is 3600 BP to 3200 BP, is that consistent  with your findings?  Well, I know I'm not supposed to address  archaeological issues, but it's -- to my recollection 17212  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 in Copeland's work, 3600 isn't the date, but in terms  2 of the sequencing of events that I'm doing, the  3 sequence doesn't change by the dates, and there's a  4 broad range in terms of the eras that I'm dealing  5 with.  6 Q   And from your research in terms of in relation to the  7 dispersal of Temlaxam and also the adaawk you've dealt  8 with before the time of dispersal of Temlaxam, where  9 does the -- at what time does the placing of the  10 village site at Kitselas occur, that is not talking  11 about years, but in terms of the sequencing?  12 A   The people dispersed from Temlaxam, they established  13 themselves at Kitselas, they're resident there for a  14 long period of time, and then they continue on to the  15 coast.  16 MR. GRANT:  Now, I'd like to refer you back to your report,  17 still in volume 1 -- sorry, I would like to go to page  18 233 to 235.  Now, at this part you refer to the Eagle  19 group at page 233, my lord.  2 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  21 MR. GRANT:  This — you referred to an Eagle group in — Eagle  22 group at Gilots'aw', G-I-L-O-T-S, apostrophe A-W  23 apostrophe, had a long history and was composed of  24 people from a number of migrations.  25 THE COURT:  Sorry, I don't know where Gilots'aw' is?  26 A   It's in the same area as the Kitselas, it's in that  27 lake house, Terrace kind of.  There's actually a very  28 handy map that MacDonald did indicating that area.  2 9 THE COURT:  Thank you.  3 0 MR. GRANT:  31 Q   And you go on to talk about the Eagles and quote from  32 some of the adaawk in the next following pages.  Could  33 you just explain what was happening with the Eagle  34 clan in this era that is relevant to the Gitksan?  35 A  Well, the Eagle clan was present but it wasn't a  36 dominant factor the way it became later on.  With the  37 arrival of the northern Eagles from the Tlingit area  38 and from the Laxwiiyip area, the Tsimshian Eagle group  39 became stronger, and also there was a migration from  40 the Haida of Eagle people.  41 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Mr. Grant, I'm going to have to adjourn  42 for just a moment, please.  I may be as much as five  43 minutes.  44  4 5 (SHORT RECESS TAKEN)  46  47 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court. 17213  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 THE COURT:  Thank you, Mr. Grant.  2 MR. GRANT:  Could you put Exhibit 1042 in front of the witness,  3 please.  Now, just before going to that --  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Just a moment, Mr. Grant.  5 MR. GRANT:  6 Q   Just before going to that, I would like to refer you  7 to page 236 and 237 -- 237, I should say, of your  8 report.  And you refer here to -- you were referring  9 to the Eagles, that's what you've been describing?  10 A   I wasn't quite finished with the answer.  11 Q   Yes.  Could you just proceed with that?  12 A  Well, it's during this time period that the Eagles  13 become a prominant force among the Tsimshian and to a  14 lesser extent among the Gitksan, with the Haida Eagle  15 group coming up the -- up through Kitimat and joining  16 the Gitsalasxw, forming an alliance with them and  17 establishing themselves at Kitselas, and with the  18 incursion among -- on the coast among the Tsimshian  19 and Tlingit and Laxwiiyip.  These groups came to play  20 an important part in the ensuing decades.  21 Q   Just one point, on page 237, before I come to your  22 conclusion, you've been referring to Tsiibasaa, and  23 here you start:  24  25 "With Tsiibasaa in a key position among the  26 southern Tsimshian at Gitxahla, the Fireweed were  27 now established in strategic locations along the  28 entire length of the Skeena River and on the coast  29 to the south."  30  31 And that is the evolution of the Fireweed you're  32 describing, that is their spread from the time of the  33 creation of Fireweed?  34 A   Yes.  They now have closely related houses along the  35 full length of the lower Skeena and on the coast.  36 Q   Is there a Chief Tsiibasaa among the coastal Tsimshian  37 today, to your knowledge?  38 A   Yes, there is.  He lives in Prince Rupert.  39 Q   And there is a Tsiibasaa among the Gitksan?  40 A   Yes, among the Kispiox people.  41 Q   That's the brother of Antgulilibix, Mary Johnson?  42 A   That's right.  43 Q   Do you recall what Tsiibasaa, where that name in the  4 4 adaawk -- where that name came from?  45 A  Well, the way it's told in the adaawk, when they're  46 dispersing from Temlaxham one of the brothers is --  47 they're hungry and they capture a grouse, and there's 17214  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 a certain time of the year when the grouse is drumming  2 when you can almost walk right up to it.  And they  3 walk right up to the grouse and grab it by the leg,  4 and that's how they nourish themselves.  Their brother  5 is already dead by this time, if I remember correctly,  6 and they mourn his loss and they make a name,  7 Tsiibasaa, which means "He who grabs leg of the  8 drumming grouse".  9 Q   This is the adaawk that occurs in the area Kitsegukla?  10 A   That's right.  11 MR. GRANT:  That was given in evidence by Mary Johnson in that  12 volume I've referred you to, my lord.  Yes.  Was Tsiibasaa Mary Johnson's brother?  Yes.  Mary Johnson.  Mary Johnson's brother, Stanley Wilson, Tsiibasaa.  All right, thank you.  13 THE COURT:  14 MR. GRANT:  15 THE COURT:  16 MR. GRANT:  17 THE COURT:  18 MR. GRANT:  19 Q   You then state in conclusion at 237 that:  20  21 "The Skeena River Tsimshian were still a loose  22 alliance of Skeena River and Metlakatla villages  23 at this time.  It took the initial threat and  24 later influence of the Tlingit, combined with  25 competition from the expanded network of Fireweed  26 peoples, to weave the Tsimshian into a tightly  27 knit people.  The unification of the Tsimshian was  28 the final factor in a series of changes along the  29 Skeena River, changes that resulted in the  30 emergence of a new coastal-inland relationship  31 that was to have significant effects among the  32 Gitksan."  33  34 And your description of the evolution of the Tsimshian  35 into a tightly knit people, you conclude that that  36 happens after this time that we've talked to up to  37 now?  38 A   Yes.  Although they considered themselves to be one  39 people, the groups that lived on the Skeena River  40 were -- didn't interact as frequently with the groups  41 on the coast as they did after -- after this time  42 period with the need to group their forces and drive  43 the northern peoples back.  They become more united,  44 and it's stated in the -- by informants that this was  45 the time when they started their seasonal round with  46 the winter Metlakatla and the summers up river, and  47 they all had their villages together at Metlakatla 17215  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 after this.  2 Q   Could you refer to Exhibit 1042, tab 13, page 2.  This  3 is your timeline with the socioculture overview, your  4 summary of different parts of your report, and on page  5 2 you have part 3, "Dispersal from Laxwiiyip and  6 dispersal from Temlaxham".  And on the second page  7 there you list a number of features that you found --  8 or a number of features occurring at this time in  9 terms of the development of sociopolitical and  10 cultural characteristics.  And those are features that  11 you observed as a result of the -- in describing your  12 report?  13 A   That's right.  14 Q   Now, and the -- okay.  Is it correct to say that in  15 reading this time -- this sociopolitical and cultural  16 characteristics that they're cumulative?  In other  17 words, at this point in time you have all of those  18 features that have existed up to this time plus what  19 you've now listed?  20 A   Yes.  Except for those features that have been  21 modified as a result of the changes.  22 Q   Okay.  Now, I would like to go to volume 2 of your  23 report, and you don't -- I don't believe you're going  24 to need to refer to volume 1, you can let madam  25 registrar take it.  Now, my lord, I am going to  26 approach this volume in a different way, primarily for  27 pragmatic reasons, and shorten down by not making so  28 many references to sections of the volume but by  29 having the witness explain it.  Okay, the first part  30 here you talk about in chapter 5, and this is --  31 although the numbering restarts, this is sequential to  32 your first volume, is that right, as the next part of  33 your report?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   You talk about the Tsimshian and Gitsalasxw, and you  36 refer to it as "The Rise of Trade", and you also in  37 your sub-heading is the "Gitsalasxw and the  38 Coastal-Inland Border".  Now, can you -- and I would  39 like you to refer to tab 26 of that document book in  40 front of you, the Mediik time-line, just have that --  41 maybe your lordship can have that just at hand,  42 because the witness will be referring to it at times.  43 Can you describe for his lordship what your -- can you  44 describe for his lordship what you're talking about or  45 what you are dealing with here and why you have headed  46 this section as the "Rise of Trade"?  47 A   Once Gitsalasxw becomes a substantial village it's 17216  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 just at the time of Tsiibasaa's move to the coast that  2 the -- it's in that general time period that they  3 break the dam in their oral histories.  They say there  4 was a large Beaver dam on -- if you look at the -- if  5 you look at the last page in tab 26 --  6 Q   It's the very last page, my lord.  7 A   It's an aerial photograph of the canyon at Kitselas,  8 and the Paul Mason site that Copeland did was on the  9 right-hand side of the canyon about half-way up, but  10 there are other references to locations where they  11 lived in the canyon, and during over -- over time they  12 decided to break the dam, and if you look where number  13 3 is, just below that is where they say the dam was --  14 sorry, just above that, and those two islands at the  15 top of the canyon there were previously submerged, so  16 the river wasn't actually passable by canoe traffic  17 straight through the canyon.  And when this period  18 starts it is -- and the Gitsalasxw controlled the  19 canyon and they don't let anybody through to trade  20 without their permission, and the control is  21 established at this point.  22 Q   Is that control that you're describing reflected in  23 the adaawk?  24 A   Yes.  They state that explicitly.  2 5 Q   Mm-hmm.  26 A   They actually state control of the canyon earlier in  27 terms of it being their own, and during this time the  28 Tsimshian start to trade up river, and this first  29 section deals with that.  30 Q   Now, if you look at the -- if you look at the time  31 chart that is the "Chronology of Events in 'Men of  32 Mediik' and 'Wars of Mediik'", a few pages ahead of  33 that aerial photo, where are we talking about now in  34 reflecting the Men of Mediik?  35 A   The Men of Mediik is over in this time period.  On  36 page 2, number 24, it says:  37  38 "Destruction of the Beaver dam that made the great  39 lake of the beavers."  40  41 Which was one of their primary sources of food up  42 until then, and then you have the -- them all moving  43 to a new location, which is called Doon Doon, which is  44 where they establish one of the railway building  45 communities.  It's called New Town.  And then at a  46 later date they all return back closer to the canyon,  47 and then again to -- they move their villages several 17217  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 times in the canyon, and then the end of Men of  2 Mediik, and it's after this that the rise of trade  3 starts to become apparent in the adaawk.  4 Q   Now, you had already described that Tsiibasaa was  5 involved in the last wars of the Tlingit on the coast  6 and had pushed them back north.  I believe you  7 described that earlier this morning?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And is it at the same time or subsequent to that this  10 rise of trade occurs?  11 A   It's subsequent to that when Tsiibasaa is  12 established -- well, the Fireweed have established a  13 whole sequence of related village groups down the  14 Skeena and to the coast, and they use the canyon to  15 trade, and over time the Eagles become competitive  16 with them for access to that up-river trade.  17 Q   Mm-hmm.  Now, in this section of your report in the  18 first several pages 4, 5 and -- 4 and 5 you talk about  19 the development of the -- page 5 you say:  20  21 "The introduction or intensification, among the  22 Tsimshian, of class structure and competition for  23 status and the wealth that could bring it,  24 gradually change the nature of Tsimshian society."  25  26 Is this evolution or intensification that you're  27 describing, is this occurring at this period of time?  28 A   Yes.  When the village records of origins, when the --  29 when the Tsimshian villages are joined by the migrants  30 in the north, they immediately start talking more,  31 very consistently about royalty and which houses are  32 royalty, and it's very often, most often the houses  33 from the north that become the royal houses.  34 Q   Now, on pages -- page 10 you refer to the Men of  35 Mediik, and what you've already described as their  36 control of the sea route -- control of the river  37 route.  I would note that, for your lordship, and I  38 would like to turn you to the second section of this  39 part of your report, where you talk about "Gitank'aat  4 0 and Gitluusek:  The Border Area Expands".  And you  41 state on page 15:  42  43 "It is the intra-clan alliances forged at  44 Gitsalasxw that extended inland and created the  45 two great towns of Gitluusek and Gitank'aat.  As  46 with Luuxoon and his people, whose identity was  47 Gitksan, but who provided a link to the 1721?  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  THE COURT  A  THE COURT  A  THE COURT  A  THE COURT  Laxwiiyip."  And that's what you were talking about yesterday; is  that right?  That's right.  "these Gitksan towns provided a link, through  Gitsalasxw, to the Tsimshian.  Here, however, in a  later, more complex era, than Luuxoon's, and in a  highly complex situation, this link was not simply  between two branches of one clan group or common  origin, as with Luuxoon, but was formed by a  merger of groups of inland and coastal origins in  three clans, a merger based on a common ancient  heritage to which new elements had been added."  Now, can you just explain what you're referring to  there in the terms of the complex era and that  description?  Well, it's around this time that these two towns  become prominent, and they're close -- Gitsalasxw is  here and Gitank'aat is at -- I'm not very good with  the English names of rivers, it's up river from  Kitselas and above -- that is Gitluusek is.  So you  have the two very important villages, one dominated by  the Frog clan at Gitluusek, and one dominated by the  Eagle clan at Gitluudahlxw, evolving, and as they're  described in the files and in the adaawk, they're  bilingual villages and bicultural in the sense that  they have both royalty and non-royalty, and it's the  only -- it's the only period during Gitksan history  where this -- where this use of the coastal social  organization is as dominant, and the Gitsalasxw people  at this time are actually more -- well, they're  closely linked with their relatives on the coast, but  they're actually still more closely linked with their  relatives up river.  So these villages are in a sense  an extension of Kitselas.  :  I don't think I've heard of Gitluusek before.  I  take it it's close to Gitank'aat?  It's right at Cedarvale.  :  Both of them?  At —  :  Or is Gitluusek at Cedarvale?  Right, right at the eastern end of Cedarvale on the  highway side.  :  All right, thank you. 17219  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  MR.  GRANT  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  MR.  GRANT  7  THE  COURT  8  9  10  A  11  THE  COURT  12  A  13  MR.  GRANT  14  15  A  16  17  THE  COURT  18  19  MR.  GRANT  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  GRANT  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  And Gitank'aat is down river of that?  Yes.  Yes?  Yes.  Now --  I was given a name for where -- a present name for  where Gitank'aat is, and I don't remember now, for  Lome Creek?  It's Fiddler or Legate, or --  Yeah, Fiddler Creek, one of those creeks?  Yeah.  I was trying to remember which creek it was, I just  can't remember.  I think it was between Fiddler and Legate, I think,  that's why --  All right, thank you.  That's down river from  Cederdale, is it?  Cedarvale.  Cedarvale.  Yep.  Now, Miss Albright has given evidence in this  court of a dating at Gitank'aat of 1700 years before  the present.  Is that consistent with your sequencing?  It falls in this time period, yes.  Now, on pages 15 -- or sorry, 16 at the bottom through  to page 18, you give a description.  You start by  saying:  "A sense of the place of Gitank'aat in the history  of this area comes out of an examination of the  Eagle groups who ultimately came together to make  up the present Gitwingax Eagle Houses of  T'ewelasxw, Skayeen, Sakxwmhiigook, Gilawoo' and  Simediik.  The original people at Swoolekstaat  have been discussed.  They are the Eagle-Wolf or  Laxnadze, usually referred to by the chief's name  Gook, from which both the present Eagles and some  of the Wolves at Gitwingax originate."  Now, I just want to clarify a few points there.  These  chiefs' names that you referred to at the second line  there, those are Eagle chiefs?  That's right.  Now, Skwoolekstaat, can you tell his lordship where  that is?  That's Wilson Creek. 17220  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  MR. GRANT  2  3  THE COURT  4  MR. GRANT  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  A  33  34  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  :  That's the place referred to in Art Matthew's  evidence, my lord.  :  Yes, thank you.  I believe you viewed it on the viewing.  And then the  chief's name, Gook, is that -- is there another name  for Gook?  Sakxwmhiigook.  That's the one on the second lake,  S-A-K-X-W-M-H-I-I-G-O-O-K.  And in the adaawk it's sometimes referred to as Gook  and sometimes as Sakxwmhiigook, but it's the same  chief's name?  That's right.  Now, in this part you describe the Eagles.  You go on  in the balance of this page to describe the Eagles and  their relationships; is that right?  As I was saying earlier, I go on to talk about the  other groups that join and make up the Eagle clan as  it is known today.  And this is of particular relevance to the Eagle  Houses of Gitank'aat?  Yes.  And this is the time period when it comes  together at Gitank'aat among the Gitksan.  Now, I'm going to refer you to Exhibit 898, tab 2, the  Men of Mediik and Wars of Mediik.  Now, you've already  referred to that and you're familiar with it, and I  just like to refer you to tab 2.  I believe you've  described -- you read this, okay.  Now, is there  anything in that that has assisted you in terms of the  time span -- time distinctions that you were just  describing earlier about this era?  Well, the next era, trade, wars and the slave raids,  it's part of the same era of trade, but it's the next  chapter.  Well, I refer you to Roman numeral VII of the prologue  of Exhibit 898, tab 2, Roman numeral VII, V-I-I.  Now,  is there -- there he states, and this is in the  prologue:  "The history is in two parts.  A natural break  comes in the narrative.  While chronology, as we  know it, did not exist, close questioning led to  a reasonable assumption that the first part ended  some 600 to 700 years ago."  And this is the preface of Will Robinson that he put  in in November 10 of 1941? 17221  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   That's right.  2 Q   And where was he talking about there, that 600, 700  3 year thing?  4 A  Well, that's the final events in Men of Mediik are the  5 6 to 700 years ago, but he also mentions in the  6 preface, he says "A natural break comes in the  7 narrative".  I'm not sure what page.  8 Q   That's Roman numeral VII, it's right before what I  9 just read to you.  10 A   Oh, right.  The history's in two parts.  The natural  11 break comes in the narrative, he has 6 to 700 years  12 from the last events in Men of Mediik to the present  13 from which he's speaking, but if you look at Men of  14 Mediik and analyse the internal chronology in Men of  15 Mediik, you have a span of approximately 400 years  16 in -- sorry, not Men of Mediik -- in Wars of Mediik.  17 If you look at Wars of Mediik and analyse the  18 chronology in it, you have a span of approximately 400  19 years ending approximately in 1890.  So this natural  20 break covers a couple of centuries, two or three  21 centuries in terms of the dating.  22 Q   So the Men of Mediik, now that we're almost to 1990,  23 the Men of Mediik would end about 500 years ago, if  24 there's a natural sequencing?  25 A   No.  The Men of Mediik ends when he says it does.  26 There's just a break in the narrative, there are no  27 events recorded for the time period between when Men  28 of Mediik ends and Wars of Mediik begins, and Wars of  29 Mediik takes 400 years approximately.  And the first  30 events in Wars of Mediik are the events that I've  31 outlined in chapter 6 on page 29, which are Legyeex's  32 first attacks against the people at Gitsalasxw,  33 G-I-T-S-A-L-A-S-X-W.  34 Q   That's where I was going to actually take you now.  35 We're into chapter 6, my lord, on page 29, "Trade Wars  36 and Slave Raids" 1000 BP to 200 BP, and Legyeex's  37 attacks at Gitsalasxw.  Now, his lordship has heard of  38 Legyeex, and can you assist in terms of what --  39 A  Well, Legyeex did not want to -- did not want to  40 respect the control of the canyon that the Gitsalasxw  41 had, and he tried to defeat them twice, and there are  42 excellent long accounts in Wars of Mediik of the type  43 of warfare that took place in those attempts.  In the  44 second one he was successful in forcing them to  45 retreat up river temporarily, and he burned their  46 village, but there's no indication that that allowed  47 him the success of going through the canyon at will as 17222  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 a result, but it was a major -- major defeat for the  2 Gitsalasxw, and that takes place at the beginning of  3 Wars of Mediik, so that would be approximately 1480,  4 1490, now that we're in AD dating.  5 Q   It would be about 1480 or 1490 AD?  6 A  Approximately 400 years before the end of Wars of  7 Mediik, which is 1890.  8 Q   And from page 29 through 37 you extracted parts of the  9 Wars of Mediik description of this and also synopsize  10 what was happening in this particular battle?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Or series, sorry?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Is that right?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Is there anything further you wish to say regarding  17 that battle?  18 A   Just that the name, as Wars of Mediik goes on to say,  19 that over the next 200-year period the House of  20 Legyeex, the group and the village that Legyeex leads,  21 the Gispaxloots, G-i-s-p-a-x-1-o-o-t-s, rise to a  22 position of power, and they are continually attempting  23 to increase their up-river trade.  They're not really  24 at peace with the Gitsalasxw, and then it -- they  25 go -- the hostilities between the Gitsalasxw and  26 Legyeex are terminated by the fact that the Haida  27 become a greater threat.  28 Q   Well, I just want to -- I think you've alluded to it,  29 but as his lordship said yesterday, there has been  30 evidence here of Legyeex involved in the 1800's in  31 events.  Are you aware of descriptions from the adaawk  32 or the Wars of -- and the wars of Mediik that refer to  33 Legyeex being involved in the 1800's?  34 A   Yes.  There was -- there were a number of Legyeex's,  35 one of them who burned Kispiox, another whom was  36 converted by Duncan and Metlakatla.  37 Q   You conclude from your analysis of the adaawk that  38 there are a series of Legyeex's?  39 A   Yes.  Well, it's stated —  40 Q   Stated in the —  41 A   It's stated in a number of places.  42 Q   And I believe, if I remember right, Miss Marsden, that  43 this description here that you start at page 29 in  44 terms of sequencing of the adaawk is the first time  45 you described Legyeex and his involvement; is that  46 right?  47 A   Yes.  This is the first time his name comes to 17223  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  Q  prominence.  And you've concluded that's around 1480 or 1490?  From the internal dating of Wars of Mediik, yes.  Can you go to page 37, which you then commence the  next sector after the Gitsalasxw wars in which you  talk about the Slave Raids and the Haida-Skeena River  War.  And what are you specifically dealing with here?  What has happened of significance in terms of your  sequencing in the development of the Gitksan?  Well, in Wars of Mediik, this is a couple of centuries  after the wars with the Gitsalasxw.  Mm-hmm?  Legyeex is in the Nass and his -- he is attacked by  the Haida.  He's at the Nass for the oolichan fishing  and he's attacked by the Haida, and as a result he  requests the Gitsalasxw to come to his assistance in  retaliating, and the Gitsalasxw people call upon their  relationships with some of the Gitksan and they send a  canoe up river and ask for the best warriors among the  Gitksan to assist them in this war.  And as a result  the -- Walter Wright's version in Wars of Mediik  covers the war, but so does the one that I've quoted  here from Willis Morgan and Jack Morgan.  :  On page 40 you're referring to the Jack Morgan  account, and he states there that:  "They conscript the best fighters, the strong men,  who they already trained to fight.  One man at  Gitsegyukla - his name was Gasx --"  Where are you on page 30?  40.  I'm sorry, my lord.  Page 40.  Page 40.  "he's the chief.  Really his name was Wiiget, but  he so bad man, that's why they called him  Gasx...just a nickname ... He's a strong man and  he's a fighter.  He's one of them constripts... all the  conscripts they loaded in the canoes and they went  down.  And a whole bunch of people... below  Gitsalasxw, all the way down to the mouth  of the Skeena River, there's a lot of villages,  and they conscript every village." 17224  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 And is that person they're talking about there  2 connected with the Gitksan chief today?  3 A   Yes.  As they say, really his name was Wiiget, and  4 that's the chief in Gitsegyukla.  And if you look on  5 page 41 --  6 Q   Yes?  7 A  When they go down river, before they head across the  8 open water they -- there's a supernatural experience  9 that takes place, and there's a crest that comes out  10 of this event.  And if you go to Kitsegukla today, you  11 will see in the front in Wiiget's front yard a large  12 sculptured tombstone of this crest which takes the  13 form of a large bear with a pole sticking out of its  14 back, bear-like creature.  15 Q   And you've seen that?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   You've seen that crest in Wiiget's place?  Can you  18 turn to page 46, please.  You say at the top, and I  19 think I understand from my note that you're talking  20 here -- "With this war", you're talking about the  21 Haida war, aren't you, the war with the Haida?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   Legyeex and Niistaxhuuk; Niistaxhuuk being the chief  24 of Gitsalasxw?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q  27 "united by their common enemy, formed an uneasy  28 alliance.  After this, Legyeex held in  29 check his desire to break the hold of the  30 Gitsalasxw on the river traffic.  He feuded  31 intermittently with Gitxoon, the Eagle chief of  32 Gitsalasxw, but, in spite of his efforts, the  33 Fireweed maintained control of the river, and the  34 Gitxoon remained first among the Eagles.  It  35 wasn't until the mid-1800's, when Legyeex forged  36 an alliance with the Hudson's Bay Company by  37 marrying his daughter to Dr. Kennedy, the factor  38 at Port Simpson, that he made his final bid for  39 control of the river."  40  41 So here you're talking about in this -- the first part  42 of this paragraph, the description of what's occurred  43 and alliance that arose out of the Haida wars?  44 A   That's right.  And in terms of the dating of that, you  45 have the internal dating of Wars of Mediik, but also  46 they prepared the hill at Battle Hill, which was their  47 ongoing fortress, which they used when they were 17225  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  Q  A  threatened from outside, be  Haida were going to attack  developed that hill at that  Mm-hmm?  And MacDonald refers in his  the range of possible dates  the hill, and he puts that  Q   I'm just going to refer you  registrar has it.  And this  MacDonald article on the Ep  this what you're referring  A   Yes.  WILLMS:  That's 847.  GRANT:  I'm sorry, 847?  And if you take the date fr  would be around 1680, it fa  that MacDonald has for what  quote him exactly.  On page  Page 73, my lord.  I don't think I have it.  Of Exhibit 847.  I don't have it.  What's  Page 73, my lord.  Of Exhibit 8 —  847, tab 19.  Thank you.  He says that "The occurrenc  end, just about at the end  paragraph:  Q  A  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  A  cause they thought the  them full out.  And they  time.  article on Battle Hill to  for this earlier use of  range as 1550 to 1750.  to Exhibit 847.  Madam  is — Exhibit 447 is the  ic of Nekt, my lord.  Is  to?  om Wars of Mediik, which  lis half-way in that range  he calls the -- I better  73 in the Epic of Nekt.  the pagel  e" -- this is almost at the  of the second to last  "The occurrence of lithic tools in the underlying  pre-historic strata, which have not been dated,  suggests that the pre-historic occupation  of the site pre-dates the mid-eighteenth century  by as much as one to two hundred years."  So that's 1750 back to 1550.  And then he goes on to  connect this with the oral traditions:  "These dates seem to align with those suggested in  the oral traditions, that is, the period between  the beginning of the Haida wars and the final  abandonment of the fortress in the move to  Kitwanga village."  With respect to his comment that these appear to link 17226  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 with the oral histories of the beginning of the Haida  2 wars, is that -- do you agree with that?  3 A  Well, as I said, 1680 is the date from the internal  4 dating of Wars of Mediik, and that fits in the time  5 range that MacDonald has allotted for these events.  6 THE COURT:  Is that for the start or the end of the Wars of  7 Mediik, or is that the midpoint?  8 A  Midpoint.  9 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, the MacDonald does, at the top of the  10 page, say that the oral history involving the Kitwanga  11 Fort indicates that there were wars beginning just  12 before 1700 and lasting into the 1830's.  I think that  13 sets the time a little more precisely than the  14 witness' guestimate.  15 THE COURT:  MacDonald says —  16 MR. WILLMS:  He says just before 1700 until the 1830's at the  17 top of the page on page 73.  18 MR. GRANT:  Of course my friend is free to ask the witness about  19 that or even deal with it in argument, but --  20 MR. WILLMS:  Well, I was just trying to help the witness out, my  21 lord, because it was kind of blurry.  It's 100 to 200  22 years, and maybe she hadn't seen that.  My friend  23 didn't direct her to it.  2 4 MR. GRANT:  25 Q   Now, in this particular section on Neek't and The  26 T'a'oots'ip at Battle Hill, you refer to the  27 commission evidence of Fred Johnson, that's chief  28 Lelt.  And he describes the Nekt in his evidence; is  29 that right?  30 A  Where are you?  31 Q   I'm on page 49.  I'm sorry, yes, page 49 at the very  32 bottom, page 50 and 51?  33 A   Yes.  This is the later era that we're dealing with  34 now.  35 Q   I'm sorry, yeah.  I didn't --  36 A   The Haida wars are over.  37 Q   Yes?  38 A   In that earlier period.  39 Q   Mm-hmm.  And so now you're talking about something  40 that has occurred later on?  41 A   Yes.  This is another event.  42 Q   Now, you've described Legyeex here.  You talk about  43 Nekt and The T'a'oots'ip at Battle Hill, you described  44 Legyeex as if there were a number of Legyeex's from  45 your reading of oral history?  46 A   That's right.  47 Q   Have you come to any conclusion regarding Nekt?  When 17227  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 the court sees reference to the name Nekt, should we  2 assume for the purposes of the oral history there is  3 one or more than one Nekt?  4 A  Well, the name Nekt continues on, but Nekt was not a  5 major chief of a house, much as he was very important  6 during the time when he was the main warrior, and the  7 name of the important warriors in history doesn't  8 continue on necessarily as the leading name of a house  9 the way the name of a leading chief does.  In other  10 words, the status of a warrior, much as he may be a  11 chief and his name may be perpetuated, it's not --  12 it's one generation, it's a single person thing.  13 Q   So have you in your conclusions concluded that Nekt is  14 one person when we see him in the oral --  15 A   Yes.  The events that are being dealt with in the Nekt  16 series of adaawk are dealing with one person.  17 Q   Now, you say this is after the Haida wars, and what  18 range of time are we looking at here when we're  19 talking about Nekt?  20 A   Okay.  I would like to go back to Battle Hill.  Battle  21 Hill was, according to the oral histories, prepared  22 for attack, but the attack was made instead on the  23 Haida on the Queen Charlotte Islands, and it was  24 successful, and so the -- it was not used for a period  25 of time until later events evolved with different  26 players.  In this case it's the warrior Nekt who is  27 warring, primarily with Gitamaat, but also with the  28 Nishga, and in terms of the timing of these events, I  29 know that there is one adaawk that has -- the first  30 one in brackets after the death of Nekt, but it's in  31 square brackets, which indicates the inserting of  32 opinion by the person doing the translating.  All the  33 other accounts of the death of Nekt say that he was  34 shot in the back of the leg with an arrow in the  35 Nishga area by Laxpilix, L-A-X-P-I-L-I-X of the House  36 of Xstiiyaox, X-S-T-I-I-Y-A-O-X, and in one of these  37 accounts it's clearly stated by the informant in a way  38 that other informants used the same statement.  This  39 took place while we were still at Gitwilaxgyap,  40 G-I-T-W-I-L-A-X-G-Y-A-P.  Now, Gitwilaxgyap was the  41 village that was abandoned -- that was destroyed and  42 abandoned as a result of the volcano, so these --  43 these events that take place with Nekt precede the  44 volcanic eruption, according to the sequencing in the  45 adaawk.  They're also compatible with MacDonald's  46 range of dates for the occupation of the T'a'oots'ip,  47 since he doesn't -- well, I'll get to that later. 17228  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  39  MR. GRANT  40  41  42  43  44  THE COURT  45  MR. GRANT  46  Q  47  A  Can I refer you to page -- page 52 in the middle  paragraph, which you talk about:  "In times of attack the Western Gitksan had always  retreated to their most defensible point, the  T'a'oots'ip, or the fortress, at Battle Hill.  This had been a place of retreat as far back as  the disbursal and then again for the Gitanyaaw'  when they were defeated by the Laxwiiyip.  With  the threat of an all out attack by the Haida, it  was made ready, although never used.  But it was  the threat from the Gitamaat that gave the  T'a'oots'ip such a crucial place in Gitksan  history."  And that's -- that's what you've been describing, but  that's your conclusion as to the T'a'oots'ip  longevity?  Yes.  And there are other villages with the similar  types of places that they sometimes called fortified  places.  They're on either high cliff areas or an  island in the middle of rivers, and in this case it's  the natural outcropping above the river.  Now, you go on to refer extensively, through an adaawk  example of Arthur Mowatt, as to the description of  events, and then you return to Fred Johnson, Lelt, and  page 59, my lord, where he talks about -- Fred Johnson  talks about the same thing, that is that you've just  described, that the Battle Hill was built by the Frog  tribe from Gitluusek in preparation for the Haida war?  That's right.  And then you go on to describe that?  This is -- this is the time with the threats from down  river that were causing Gitluusek and Gitluudahlxw to  be endangered.  This is the time that people moved up  to the T'a'oots'ip for protection, and gitluusek and  Gitluudahlxw were gradually abandoned.  Well,  actually -- yes, Antgesees(?) also.  :  Now, you've described about Nekt, you've referred  his lordship to the different descriptions of Nekt,  and in fact the death of Nekt, and from the oral  histories, where and when would Nekt have -- did you  determine that Nekt would have died?  :  You mean when Nekt died, did you say?  When did Nekt die?  I just described that. 17229  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  A  3  4  THE  COURT  5  MR.  GRANT  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  THE  COURT  11  A  12  THE  COURT  13  A  14  MR.  GRANT  15  Q  16  17  A  18  THE  COURT  19  A  20  THE  COURT  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  THE  COURT  31  32  MR.  GRANT  33  Q  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  MR.  WILLM  41  42  43  44  MR.  GRANT  45  46  47  THE  COURT  I'm sorry.  In terms of the timing prior to the volcano eruption  on the Nass.  Do we know when the volcano was?  have you a sense  The conservative  or minus 130.  Yes.  Maybe that's the step which  of when the volcano was?  There are a number of opinions  opinion of Clague is 250, plus  Before present?  Before present.  What is it again?  250 plus or minus 130.  Now, there is -- there is reference and a description  of the volcano in the adaawk; is that right?  Very detailed references, yes.  :  Okay.  Which village was it?  G-I-T-W-I-L-A-X-G-Y-A-P.  :  And where is that?  There's -- it's in the general -- I'm afraid I'm not  very good at picturing specific geographies.  They  describe in their adaawk and geologists have since  described the way the river has since been moved, so  there was a lake that was -- they said had a strong  unpleasant odour, and it was destroyed by the lava  flow, and the river that they used to call Caribou  River was moved, and they call that new water Seax,  and so it was in that general area.  :  I'm sorry, I don't know what the general area is  though.  Yeah.  Just in terms of if you were to drive there?  Oh, in the overall Aiyansh territory close to the  village of Aiyansh.  If you drive north from Terrace on the road that goes  up to Aiyansh you go to a lava flow area near the  Nass, and that's the area you're talking about?  Yes.  3:  My lord, that lava flow has been dated by witnesses  in this trial for the plaintiff.  It's in the 1700's.  I can't remember if it's 1770, but it's been dated by  witnesses for the plaintiff already.  :  Yeah.  My note of it was, although I couldn't find  the reference, if you want to refer to it, it was  around 1730.  :  You say 1730? 17230  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  WILLMS:  I can't -- my friend might be right.  It's  somewhere, I can't remember if it's first half or  second half.  COURT:  All right.  GRANT:  Q   In fact, I think my friend may have even conceded the  point.  Just one question, if 1730 -- if it's in the  range of the first half of the eighteenth century, is  that consistent with what you concluded in terms of  the sequencing of Nekt of this era?  A   Yes.  Q   And that he died before that volcano erupted?  A   That's correct.  GRANT:  Thank you.  COURT:  All right.  Two o'clock, please.  How much longer  are you going to be, Mr. Grant?  I can certainly -- as you can see, I'm almost  half-way through the second volume in 45 minutes, and  I'm endeavouring to reduce.  I'm hoping that I will be  completed by no later than three o'clock.  If we  commence at two that's my hope.  COURT:  Thank you.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until  two o'clock.  (LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT TAKEN AT 12:30)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein transcribed to the  best of my skill and ability  MR.  THE  MR. GRANT  Graham D. Parker  Official Reporter  United Reporting Service Ltd. 17231  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT)  THE COURT:  Mr. Grant.  MR. GRANT:  Volume 2 of the report, please.  Referring you now  to page 69 of your report.  THE COURT:  69?  MR. GRANT:  Yes.  Volume 2, my lord.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. GRANT:  Q   At the bottom of 69 you state, Ms. Marsden, that:  "Once the threat of attacks diminished -- "  Just one moment.  " -- people gradually began to regroup and by the  early 1800's the Village of Gitwingax was founded.  The first location where a number of Houses  established themselves temporarily was below the  T'a'oots'ip, along the creek, where they built,  and appear to have lived, in their smokehouses."  Now, are these smokehouses referred to in the adaawk  as smokehouses for fishing?  A   Yes.  Q   And then you have -- I should say the adaawk in the  Barbeau microfilm and Duff files, and then you have  "There were 11 smokehouses" and you referred to there  were eleven chiefs, and in brackets you have the clans  and that listing is from the Duff files, and do you  recognize those as chiefs presently who are presently  in Gitwingax?  There is one name there that I don't recognize.  The  Ludaxat.  L-u-d-a-x-a-t, the last one.  Then 'Wii Xskiik.  Those two  with now.  But the rest -- the rest are all chiefs and  Siiyeltxw, number ten, is in the same as Lelt, same  group as Lelt.  Okay.  And 'Wii Xskiik is W-i-i, one word,  X-s-k-i-i-k.  Siiyeltxw, number ten, is  S-i-i-y-e-1-t-x-w.  Ludaxat is L-u-d-a-x-a-t.  Now,  then you say -- after going to that you say:  "Again indigenous Gitksan control is indicated by  the fact that Hlengwax and Axgoot represent the  only unamalgamated coastal groups in this list.  A  Q  A  Other than that you --  names I am not familiar 17232  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 In addition crucial fishing technology was  2 controlled by 'Wii Xskiik --"  3  4 The spelling I already gave,  5  6 " — Gook, Lelt and Alaist."  7  8 Now, what are you referring to there, those two  9 sentences?  Why do you say that indigenous Gitksan  10 control?  11 A  Well, those are the chiefs' names that were there  12 prior to the influences of the -- of the downriver --  13 downriver Frog Clan through Kitselas.  14 Q   Okay.  That is all of the chiefs except Hlengwax and  15 Axgoot?  16 A   That's right.  17 Q   Then you refer to them moving to the -- near the  18 present site of Gitwingax, and that the village had to  19 be -- they built there had to be abandoned because of  20 river erosion, and this would have been the Skeena  21 River, is that right?  22 A   Yes.  This is in the area of the present Gitwingax  23 village now.  24 Q   Okay.  And then you describe it and you refer -- and  25 Duff takes from Barbeau the description, and I take it  26 on that page 71 those names would reflect houses?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   House locations?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Then you state:  31  32 "The new villages reflected the new balance.  The  33 designation of Houses as royal was no longer  34 relevant.  Houses were ranked in the indigenous  35 Gitksan manner."  36  37 What are you referring to there when you say the  38 indigenous Gitksan manner?  39 A  Well, the houses were -- there was -- there were  40 leading houses and there were houses that were not  41 leading houses, but there was not a royal class within  42 the house groups.  43 Q   I refer you to -- I refer you to the top of the next  44 page, and, my lord, I am not going to read this  45 paragraph, but I'd ask you to note it on the top of  46 page 72.  In this paragraph and on this page you are  47 referring to that distinction in more detail, is that 17233  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 right?  2 A   Yes.  I'm describing the influences on the western  3 Gitksan from the downriver peoples.  4 Q   Okay.  So at this stage, then, in time span we not  5 only have those villages that you have described  6 existed at the time of the downfall of Temlaxham, but  7 at this later stage we have the founding of Gitwangak  8 as we know it today, that is at the present location?  9 A   That's right.  That's -- that is now added to the list  10 of Gitksan villages as we know them today.  11 Q   Okay.  12 A  At this time.  13 Q   I'd refer you to -- I am referring you to chapter  14 seven, the border pressures on the north, and can you  15 just -- you commence with the Raven Clan of Laxwiiyip.  16 Now, here you have a fairly large time span, 4000 BP  17 to 300 BP on the heading.  And of course overlap with  18 things that you have already talked about because we  19 have come up much more recently.  Can you just explain  20 what you are dealing with in this chapter for his  21 lordship?  22 A   These were events that took place in the north.  There  23 were indications of where they fit in the chronology,  24 but I didn't feel comfortable placing them there  25 definitively, so I put them in this chapter with my  26 opinions as to the probable time period that they  27 would have fit.  28 Q   Okay.  Now, is this where you are dealing with the  29 wars with -- wars between the Tsetsaut and the  30 Kitwancool?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Okay.  Can you tell his lordship how that sequence  33 works from your analysis of the adaawk?  34 A  Well, there are two major wars, if you want to call  35 them wars.  They involve two separate groups of  36 people.  The first one takes place between the Frog  37 Clan of Kitwancool, Luxoon, and his Tsetsaut relatives  38 to the north, and escalates to become a major war in  39 which the Gitanyaaw', G-i-t-a-n-y-a-a-w-', are reduced  40 in numbers, significantly reduced in numbers.  And  41 then there is a period of time that elapses and in a  42 recent period there is a second outbreak of  43 hostilities between -- it's actually not between  44 Kitwancool and the Tsetsaut.  The Kitwancool get  45 accidentally brought into hostilities between the  46 Nisga who are their -- their -- with whom they have  47 alliances and the Tsetsaut and as a result of that the 17234  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  Q  4  5  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38    ]  MR. GRANT  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  45  A  46  47  Kitwancool become involved in a second series of  hostilities which end sometime in the mid 1800s.  Now, I may have missed this, Ms. Marsden, but in  relation to what you were talking about earlier about  Gitank'aat and Gitluusek, is the first wars, when were  they in relation to that?  Yes, the first -- the first series of hostilities are  at a time the Kitwancool are attacked and decimated.  And then the neighbouring villages of Gitsegukla and  Gitluusek come to their assistance, and they fight  back against the Tsetsaut.  And so with the reference  in several of the adaawk about this war to Gitluusek,  I have placed it during the time before Battle Hill.  Before the move to Battle Hill, pardon me.  Before the  move to Battle Hill in the Nekt period.  And so that would be --  It's prior to the Nekt sequence.  So that would be in the area of in the pre 1550's?  No, no.  Nekt isn't that old.  Okay.  It's pre-Nekt, not pre Battle Hill?  That's correct.  All right.  Okay.  Now, you describe in this chapter  these two series of wars.  Yesterday you had talked  about, if you may recall, a migration, an earlier  migration of Luxoon.  You recall giving that evidence?  Yes.  Is these two wars you're talking about here both  subsequent to that?  Yes.  They involve those people in the first case.  Okay.  As well -- as part of the adaawk in the  material you relied on do you rely on the Luxoon  adaawk that you referred to yesterday in analysing  this area?  Yes.  And did you also rely and refer to the "Histories,  Territories and Laws of the Kitwancool"?  Yes.  :  That's Exhibit 448, my lord.  And I would just like to refer you to Exhibit 1042,  which us your prime document book.  I believe it's in  front of you, and refer you to tab number 14, which is  entitled "Historical Story of the Totem Poles of the  Clan of the Wolves, Kitwancool Village."  Do you  recognize that document?  Yes.  This is the typed account of the chiefs who gave  their adaawk to form the "Histories, Territories and  Laws of the Kitwancool," and it was prepared by a 17235  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  Q  A  A  Q  A  woman by the name of McKilvington.  She was the  secretarial person who was the wife of the teacher in  Kitwancool at the time, and the translator at the time  was Constance Cox.  And it was those people who  prepared this and this is what Duff used to write  "Histories -- " well, basically he stuck fairly close  to the text that he received to publish "Histories,  Territories and Laws of the Kitwancool."  And where did this -- where did you locate this  document from?  Where was it?  This is in the Duff files.  These are in the Duff  files in the centre that -- these are his personal  files.  Okay.  Those were part of the files that you looked at  as well?  Yes.  Those files you looked at as well?  Yes.  To a lesser extent than the other, but not in  the case of this.  That typed catalog number, I believe, has been added  subsequently, my lord, on the title page.  And this  document, did this typescript of the "Historical Story  of the Clan of the Wolves of Kitwancool," did this  draft assist you, further assist you in the dating or  the sequencing of this period, the two wars that  you've been referring to?  Yes, it did.  Okay.  I'd ask that that document be marked as the  next exhibit, my lord, on the basis it's one of the  documents the witness relied and it's a draft of  Exhibit 448.  WILLMS:  My lord, the problem with that is that I don't see  it listed in her bibliography and I saw it for the  first time when my friend was kind enough to give us  this material.  So my objection is that if it is  something that she referred to and relied on in her  report, it's too late to disclose it now.  If it  isn't, we have already got the Territory Laws of the  Kitwancool then and this is really unnecessary.  It is important to put it in, my lord.  My friends,  of course, put in Exhibit 448, you may recall, the  histories.  Yes.  It's not as if it was yesterday.  448, that  would have been a year ago.  It's during the evidence of Solomon Marsden.  It wasn't quite a year ago.  It was over a year ago, I believe.  A  GRANT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT 17236  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  GRANT  3  THE  COURT  4  5  MR.  GRANT  6  THE  COURT  7  MR.  GRANT  8  9  THE  COURT  10  11  MR.  GRANT  12  THE  COURT  13  14  MR.  GRANT  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  GRANT  17  18  19  20  21  THE  COURT  22  23  MR.  GRANT  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  THE  COURT  38  39  MR.  GRANT  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  THE  COURT  47  I don't know  Was it?  Yes, my lord.  I think we --  I haven't the document in front of me.  what you are talking about, do I?  Exhibit 448?  Yes.  Exhibit 448 is the history -- is the orange-covered  book, the "Histories -- "  Oh, yes.  I have it somewhere, yes.  But what is  it —  I am sorry, my lord.  This is --  448, you are asking for something else to go in.  I  don't know what that is.  Okay.  This is Exhibit 1042, tab 14.  Tab 14.  All right.  This is listed in the plaintiffs' list of documents,  I believe it is -- well, I think it's 3271, which I  think we listed to them, I won't say two years ago,  because it might be slightly less, but it was  certainly a long, long, long time ago.  Well, on what basis does it go in?  Are you seeking  to have it go in as evidence?  As one of the -- this is one of the documents the  witness says that as well as the "Histories,  Territories and Laws" she relied upon this document as  well and in terms of her sequencing and it's one of  the basis upon which she made -- formed her opinion.  This, of course, my lord, is what it is is it's a --  it's in fact the more -- if one may say in some ways  probably the more accurate transcription of the  histories, territories and laws as the witness has  explained the sequencing.  The chiefs told the adaawk  including the deceased chiefs that are listed here,  Fred Good and others, told this adaawk to this woman  who typescript it and sent it to Duff who later  published "Histories, Territories and Laws."  Well, I take it that the best that can be said for  it was that it was found in the Duff papers, is it?  It's part of the Duff files.  It's a draft -- the  witness has explained what it is.  It's a draft of  histories, territories and laws, but it's the one --  it's the interview, it's the transcript or the  typescript from the woman who was present during the  interviews with these chiefs who are deceased.  And it  relates to the oral histories.  Well, there is no authentication here in any way, is  there?  I mean, you know, it doesn't even know who the 17237  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  MR.  GRANT  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  THE  COURT  13  14  MR.  GRANT  15  16  17  18  THE  COURT  19  20  MR.  GRANT  21  22  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  GRANT  25  26  27  28  29  THE  COURT  30  31  MR.  GRANT  32  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  GRANT  35  THE  COURT  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  MR.  GRANT  43  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  GRANT  46  Q  47  informants were.  Yes, my lord.  The last page of the document, if you  look at the last page it shows -- and in fact there is  this in this type -- it is a typescript, but there is  sections where some of them have signed:  "These are now the Signatures of all these chiefs  who have been responsible for the telling of these  histories."  And then the names are listed down.  What's the difference between this and what Duff  published?  Well, I believe in certain parts there is a  difference in the ordering here in terms of inserts.  This was a draft of what he had published, but this  was the material that was delivered to him.  See, whatever he published at least had his  imprimatur.  This doesn't.  But this has -- but, my lord, the "Histories,  Territories and Laws" has -- it's not Duff's, I think  that —  It's —  -- that document has got in at the end of it.  It's  the chiefs who sign and above this and the  introduction to the "Histories, Territories and Laws"  are that the chiefs approved the histories,  territories and laws.  Who is the author of the "Histories, Territories and  Laws of the Gitksan"?  Well, I -- I would say that the author of that, the  substance of it, of the adaawk is the chiefs.  Who's the editor of it?  The editor is Duff.  Yes.  All right.  So Duff at least has put his name  to it as a trained researcher and is prepared to  publish it under his name.  Now, this may have been  the source of information, but unless the two are the  same, in which case there would be no point in putting  it in, there is always the risk, is there not, that  Duff rejected some of this?  Well, maybe I'll proceed with the groundwork here,  my lord.  All right.  Can you -- are you aware of the circumstances  surrounding the creation of this in relation to the 1723?  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  circumstances surrounding the creation of the  "Histories, Territories -- "  WILLMS:  I object.  That's hearsay.  How can she know what  the circumstances surrounding -- this document says  right on it when it was created.  It's created a long  time before Ms. Marsden comes on the scene and she  wasn't around when Duff wrote Territories, Laws, etc.  COURT:  Well —  WILLMS:  I object.  COURT: Does -- do you say, Ms. Marsden, that you -- that  you relied on this as part of the evidentiary basis  for your report?  In terms of the sequencing of the Tsetsaut wars, this  was -- this was particularly useful in clearing up a  problem that I had with histories, territories and  laws .  So you depended upon this to reach your conclusions?  Yes.  Well, it seems to me that it can go in on that  limited basis, Mr. Grant.  And anything else seems to  me to be far too much difficulty and I think it only  goes in there for that limited basis.  Yes.  It can be marked on that premise.  Thank you, my lord.  A  COURT  A  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  REGISTRAR:  1042-14,  MR.  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  (EXHIBIT 1042-14:  Document entitled "Historical Story  of the Totem Poles of the Clan of the Wolves,  Kitwancool Village")  Can you refer to that and just refer his lordship, I  believe, to the pages where that is dealt with, that  what you relied upon in this draft, not in your report  but in the Exhibit 1042-14, and I would refer you to  page 34.  On page 34 it says at the end of the second paragraph:  "Insert here" after the bracketed comments above it  and then further on it gives the insertion.  Is that a page 37?  Which is halfway down page 37.  And it says "insert in  original story of history."  I am sorry, that -- there is a numbered 37 after that  and it seems at the page between 36 and 37?  The first page 37.  Okay. 17239  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  THE COURT  2  3  4  A  5  THE COURT  6  MR. GRANT  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  On page 34 it says "insert here" and below that the  next line it says "insert,  are talking about?  That's yet another insert.  It's a different one?  Is that not the insert we  And then on that  halfway down that page it says:  "Page one, History of the next meeting with the  Sikanni people"?  Yes.  And that goes on for several pages.  It says:  "Insert in Original Story of History,"  Is that what you are referring to?  Yes.  It goes on to page 43.  Now, you are aware from the reading of the adaawk, and  I am referring you to page 88 of your report of -- you  talk about the Stimlaxyip, S-t-i-m-1-a-x-y-i-p, the  people who live underground, and sequentially where  does this section -- does this fit into what you have  been describing in terms of the history?  Well, it's in the quote that I give of the adaawk here  in Simon Gunanoot's account on page 89 --  Yes.  -- he refers to the people at Galdo which would  indicate, since this is obviously not a very ancient  adaawk, that it doesn't mean the old ancient Village  of Galdo before Gitangasx, so this means after the  abandonment of Gitangasx.  However, there are other  accounts that -- a number of them actually that say  that it took place both while they were at Gitangasx  and while they were -- and then -- no, while they were  at Gitangasx and as a result of that they left  Gitangasx and moved to Galdo.  Can you refer to page 95.  You state that:  "Although Simon Gunanoot refers to the people of  Galdo'o, other versions indicate that these events  began when they were still living at Gitangasx and  ended after they had moved to Galdo'o."  You then refer to John Brown and quote from the John  Brown adaawk.  A  And so the indications are that this did take place 17240  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  MR. GRANT  7  8  THE COURT  9  MR. GRANT  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  prior to the abandonment of Gitangasx, but at the very  least it took place prior to the Nisga wars, because  the Galdo was abandoned after the wars of the Nisga.  And is this the wars that involved Suu wii gos?  Yes.  :   That's been given in the evidence of Mary McKenzie,  my lord.  :  Yes.  And at the end of page 96 you refer to David Gunanoot  and the departure of Niikyap from Gitangasx in his  evidence.  And as I recall, that was in the time of  his grandfather, the late David Gunanoot's  grandfather, if I recall rightly, he gave in  Commission Evidence?  These were his relatives' departure from Gitangasx  where they were the last people to leave Gitangasx.  So in terms of our timing of these major events, the  Suu wii gos wars you view as relatively recent?  That's right.  Probably -- well, I'll come back to it  when we deal with the Nisga wars.  Okay.  You then go on page 98 -- 97 to 104 and you  talk about the inland people to the northeast.  Now,  here you are referring, as I recall, to the Meluulek,  major events of Meluulek, is that right?  That's right.  And you've described in pages 97 through 103 those --  you've taken excerpts from the adaawk and described  that event?  Yes.  And in terms of the relationship of sequencing that  you have done, where do you place these events?  These wars were particularly difficult because they  involve people to the east and I chose to not to come  to conclusions, very firm conclusions about this.  About the timing of them?  That's right.  Okay.  They appear to be recent.  Okay.  Now, on chapter eight you referred to trade and  the fur trade 200 years before the present to one  hundred years before the present and you commence by  talking about the Nisga and the Nass harbour.  Now,  here you're talking -- can you just tell us about what  you're referring to here and what was happening around  this period of time?  Well, the Maritime fur trade began around 1790 and 17241  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 although it didn't end when the fort was established  2 on the Nass in 18 -- in 1831, it did become a  3 different form of trade as soon as the fort became a  4 focus for the furs.  So the early period of this is  5 the Maritime fur trade.  And a lot of the ships --  6 well, the harbour of the Nass was one of the main  7 stopping areas for the ships during this time and the  8 Nisga were extremely interested in getting access to  9 as many quality furs as possible as a result.  10 Q   What do the oral histories tell about that and what  11 occurred as a result of this?  12 A  Well, the Nisga became involved in a feuding with the  13 group of Saniik at Portland Canal.  This is where he  14 reappears in history and as a result the Nisga are  15 trying to force them to trade with them at their -- at  16 their -- on their terms.  And as a result there are  17 people killed and Saniik moves over towards Meziadin  18 Lake and doesn't return.  And if you look at the quote  19 on page a hundred and -- 112.  20 Q   Yes.  21 A   It's -- the person speaking is -- starts on page 111:  22  23 "According to Lt. Col. Scott of the U.S. army in  24 his survey of the Indian groups along the S.E.  25 Alaskan border with B.C. for the American  26 government in 1867:"  27  28 He says:  29  30 "'There is a tribe of about 200 souls now  31 living on a Westerly branch of the Nass near  32 the Stikine River.  They are called 'Lak we  33 ieps' and formerly lived on Portland.  34 Channel.  They moved away in consequence of  35 an unsuccessful war with the Nass, and now  36 trade exclusively with the Stikeen.  The  37 Hudson's Bay Company is making strong  38 efforts to reconcile the feud in order to  39 receive their trade.'"  40  41 So this indicates the time period, the range of time  42 that this takes place.  The second thrust of their  43 hostilities are towards the Gitksan.  They attack the  44 Village of Kuldo and —  45 Q   This is the —  46 A   This is the Nisga?  47 Q   Yes. 17242  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  GRANT  32  Q  33  A  34  THE  COURT  35  A  36  MR.  GRANT  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  43  A  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  GRANT  46  THE  COURT  47  A  And that is referred to on page 115 in an article by  Jenness called "The Yukon Telegraph."  And he was up  there and he comments on the war that they have there.  And he refers to -- in that quote that you have, he  refers to:  "The deserted village of Old Kuldo, which was the  goal of our trip, has an interesting history.  During the first half the nineteenth century, and  probably for generations before that time, it was  an intermediate station on a native trading route  that led from the mouth of the Nass river to  Kisgagas.... The Kuldo people tried to levy  tribute on the traders (from the Nass) who passed  their doors, and aroused so much ill-will that the  Nass Indians attacked their village."  That was one of the -- that's consistent with your  sequencing?  That's right.  That's right.  Go ahead.  And then -- and the sequence of the attack on Kuldo  and the attack on Kispiox isn't clear, but in Martha  Brown's evidence she talks about the people of Kispiox  retreating to their fort or fortified place, which is  an island, and she talks -- she dates that in terms of  her own experience with an old woman when she was a  young girl who was born during that time period.  So  it's around 1810 that the Nisga attacked the Kispiox.  :  Is that mentioned in your text somewhere?  Is the Martha Brown reference --  Yes.  :  Yes.  I think so.  I think it is, my lord.  I just -- In Martha Brown's  Commission Evidence, my lord, she referred to a woman  who when she was 12, was a certain age about when she  died, and it would bring it -- I believe it would  bring it to around you said 1820.  Would it be around  1810 or 1820?  That's right.  I am just wondering where I should cross-index it --  Yes.  -- in my report.  We are flying so fast through the centuries here I get 17243  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  MR.  GRANT  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  THE  COURT  10  11  A  12  THE  COURT  13  A  14  THE  COURT  15  16  A  17  THE  COURT  18  A  19  MR.  GRANT  20  Q  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  dizzy with the speed of it.  There is -- on page 127 there is a reference to the  Kispiox wars or at least the peace settlement.  Do you  have that?  Sorry.  Page 127, would that be -- talking about the peace  settlement as described by John Brown, but it's --  :  Well, it says above it wasn't until 1860 that peace  was established in Nisga on the Kisgegas?  That's right.  :  We are talking about Kispiox?  Yes.  This is the Kisgegas.  :  You think the Nisga attack on Kisgegas was around  1810?  That's correct.  I know it's in here somewhere.  :  That's good enough.  Thank you.  Sorry.  Now, you also in this section of your report on page  120 you refer -- you state in the middle there between  two quotes:  "It was also Skat'iin -- "  And he's the Nisga, one of the Nisga chiefs involved  in these wars, is that right?  That's right.  He's in the Wolf Clan.  " -- who attacked the Fireweed at Anlagasemdeex."  Skat'iin is S-k-a-t-'-i-i-n and Anlagasemdeex is  A-n-1-a-g underlined a-s-e-m-d-e-e-x.  Anlagasemdeex,  is that in the area of Kisgagas?  Yes.  Okay.  And this -- this is a really interesting quote,  because it indicates the nature of trade relations.  You basically established a connection with another  group or related house of your own clan and another  and you had an agreement to trade exclusively with  them.  And so when the people from inland were going  to the Nass for their oolichan fishing or on trading  trips, the Nisga people during this time period would  also try and force them to form a relationship with  them so that they could trade, and that's what he's 17244  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 referring to here at the bottom of page 120:  2  3 "A member of the House of Laan.... went to the  4 Nass River in order to trade among the Nisga.  5 While he was there, he was killed, probably  6 because it was habitual among them that if they  7 invited you and you did not come, it was  8 considered quite an insult to them and they killed  9 the offender."  10  11 Q   After that quote you state that you describe it --  12 summarize your conclusions from that kind of  13 description that you have just described:  14  15 "The villages at the mouth of the Nass claimed the  16 right to entertain foreign visitors and to expect  17 certain trade privileges in return for their  18 hospitality.  Any refusal to be entertained by  19 them was a refusal to accept their control of the  20 trade within their borders and the penalty was  21 death.  But the Nisga wanted it both ways, control  22 in their own domain and free reign in their  23 neighbours."  24  25 Is that your conclusion about this era of time and  2 6 what was happening?  27 A   Yes.  It's a brief period, but it was very -- appears  28 to have been very intense.  29 Q   Now, Ms. Marsden, I'd like to take you -- to move  30 through page 129.  I believe if I recall rightly, this  31 is the last principal section of the report in terms  32 of your sequencing, and you are talking here about  33 Legyeex and the Skeena River trade.  On page 130 you  34 refer to a description by Harriet Hudson and you state  35 at the top of the page:  36  37 "Legyeex had feuded intermittently and  38 unsuccessfully with his clan brothers, the Eagles  39 of Gitxoon, in an attempt to break their hold on  40 the upriver trade.  Now, in the mid to late 19th  41 century, they again sought greater access.  42 According to Harriet Hudson of Gitsalasxw, they  43 sought:  44 'to have the priviledge of trading with the  45 upper Skeena tribes and the Hagwilget tribe.  46 It was from these people that the most  47 important skins or hides of moose and 17245  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 cariboo were obtained."  2  3 And then you go -- then she goes on, I should say, to  4 describe Legyeex's planning of a surprise attack on  5 Kitselas.  Now, could you just maybe describe what --  6 for his lordship what this section is about of your  7 report and how it fits into what you have thus far  8 described about the chron -- the history of the  9 Gitksan?  10 A  Well, this is the last incident of hostilities between  11 Gitsalasxw and the Gispaxloots, G-i-s-p-a-x-1-o-o-t-s,  12 of Legyeex, and it ends with a forced -- in a sense  13 forced peace ceremony between all of the Gitsalasxw  14 and Legyeex people in Kitwanga.  15 Q   Is that referred to by Ms. Hudson on page 131 of your  16 quote?  17 A   Yes.  Well, what happens is they are there and there  18 is an altercation over a trade incident over a slave  19 woman and the -- the Kitwanga people, the chiefs have  20 to intercede in order to make peace, and at the end of  21 it - it's a very long account - peaceful trading  22 relations are established.  And the inter-weaving of  23 information to date, this account is extremely  24 interesting, because the woman slave that Legyeex  25 wanted to buy was a Tsetsaut woman from the Saniik  26 group.  And the Kitwancool took her as a slave after  27 the last wars they had with the Tsetsaut but before  2 8 the peace ceremony and they brought her down to  29 Kitwanga to trade her.  Legyeex ended up after this  30 peace ceremony that he had with the Gitsalasxw people,  31 he took him -- her down to his daughter to celebrate  32 her 12th birthday.  And during that ceremony it was  33 when Duncan had just arrived at Fort Simpson and  34 Duncan was ringing the school bell.  And during that  35 ceremony he rang the school bell and Legyeex was  36 furious and went to kill him.  And Arthur Wellington  37 Claw, who was the Tsimshian person teaching Duncan how  38 to speak Tsimshian, saved Duncan and later Legyeex was  39 converted and this woman moved with him and his  40 daughter to Metlakatla and married a white person by  41 the name of John Spencer.  And her name appears -- her  42 name was Tatalama and it appears through a number of  43 different accounts.  And since Duncan arrived in Fort  44 Simpson in 1857 and left for Metlakatla in 1863, that  45 places all of the events involving this woman upriver  46 prior to that time.  47 Q   And can you give a spelling for her name, please? 17246  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   T-a-t-a-1-a-m-a.  2 THE COURT:  G-a-t —  3 A   T-a-t-a-1-a-m-a.  4 MR. GRANT:  5 Q   Now, that brief overview of this woman's travels, if  6 one may say, through this historical period, that is a  7 compilation from many of the sources that you've  8 looked at, is that right?  9 A   I think there were five separate sources among the  10 adaawk and others among the accounts of Duncan.  11 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  My lord, I was going to have Ms. Marsden  12 give some detail about the Harriet Hudson account, but  13 I'll just highlight it for your lordship.  I don't  14 want to go through it in further detail.  15 THE COURT:  All right.  16 MR. GRANT:  But that's the account that starts at 130 and ends  17 at 136 and Ms. Marsden's conclusions relating to that  18 are on page 136.  19 Q   And if you -- I will just refer you to it, Ms.  20 Marsden.  You say that:  21  22 "Here we see the full force of the Gitwingax  23 chiefs brought to bear on the Tsimshian and the  24 Gitsalasxw.  Their unstated assertion of power is  25 quite clear:  it is not for foreign groups to  26 determine who has trade rights among the Gitksan.  27 The Gitksan welcomed these foreign leaders as  2 8 traders among whom they themselves would pick and  29 choose.  However, Gitxoon and Legyeex continued  30 within their own frame of reference to jockey for  31 power, and later, Legyeex, this time through  32 feasting proclaimed his exclusive right to claim  33 beyond Gitwingax."  34  35 Now, is he referring there to trading upriver of  36 Gitwangak or down when you say beyond Gitwangak?  37 A   He's upriver.  38 Q   Okay.  39 A  What they call the upper Skeena, the Gitanmaax  40 primarily and Hagwilget.  That's what Legyeex was  41 primarily interested in.  This --.  Oh, go ahead.  42 Sorry.  43 Q   You go on then to describe further the history of this  44 era and then at page -- page 141, my lord, you state  45 that:  46  47 "Legyeex remained angry that the trading 17247  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  THE COURT  43  44  A  45  46  THE COURT  47  MR. GRANT  privileges he considered to be exclusive had been  usurped.  He also discovered that his other  rivals, the Gitxahla of Tsiibasaa, had travelled  upriver to trade among the Gitksan.  Legyeex  attacked the Gitxahla but was unsuccessful.  In a  final bid for control, for the exclusive privilege  he considered his own, Legyeex planned to attack  the Gitksan and subdue them, so that, thereafter,  they would refuse to trade any group other than  his own."  And then you go on to describe a plan of Legyeex and  actually his execution of a plan to attack Kispiox and  he did attack Kispiox and the Gitksan people, the  Gitksan villages downriver, didn't he?  Yes.  He burned Kispiox to the ground.  And that's described in the John Tate version of that  adaawk that you've quoted extensively?  That's right.  Now, in terms of who this particular Legyeex was who  attacked Kispiox and Gitanmaax, have you been able to  come to any conclusions of that in terms of the  sequencing of Legyeex, if I may say?  Well, at the end of that quote on page 147 --  Yes.  -- it says:  The Gispaxloots had become less active, as Legyeex  was afraid of the reprisals of the Upper Skeena  people, who were still hostile to him and his  tribe.  Legyeex and most of his tribe had now  become a part of Mr. Wm. Duncan's flock, having  moved to Metlakatla from Port Simpson."  So this is the -- this is the Legyeex that becomes  converted.  And was that consistent with other versions that you  have or other adaawk and other -- that you have read  with respect to this?  Yes.  Okay.  :  When did you think it was that Legyeex burned,  attacked and burned Kispiox?  Well, it had to be before 1860, because that's the  approximate -- he was converted between 1857 and 1863.  :  Thank you.  :  Now, my lord, I have a few other questions of the 1724?  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  14  THE  COURT:  15  MR.  GRANT:  16  THE  COURT:  17  MR.  GRANT:  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  25  26  THE  COURT:  27  MR.  GRANT:  28  29  THE  COURT:  30  MR.  GRANT:  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  MR.  WILLMS  witness.  I am completed with your report.  And in -- when you  complete that description of the -- what we have gone  up to historically now, that is the completion of your  analysis of the historical overview of the Gitksan?  Yes.  And the cultural overview of the development of  cultural aspects?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, I would just like to refer you for a  moment to another exhibit.  I am referring to Exhibit  358-22, my lord, and this is an exhibit that was put  in evidence with Mr. Morrell.  358-22?  358-22.  Yes.  It is from the map at last.  It is map 22 of the  fishing sites.  Now, you recognize that?  Yes.  I am also going to refer you, for example, to Exhibit  8, which was initially introduced at the time of Ms.  McKenzie's evidence, Chief Gyolugyet, and was proven  through Marvin George.  Do you recognize that map of  the fishing sites at Kuldo?  That's Exhibit 8?  Exhibit 8, my lord.  That was over a year ago, my  lord.  Two years ago.  Over two years, yes.  Yes.  Now, in the evidence of Mr. Morrell, he indicated that  he was involved in the preparation of this map 22.  He  also indicated that he worked in conjunction with you  with respect to certain aspects of this map, is that  correct?  Yes.  Now, the other day you indicated that you had compiled  or had a -- had somebody working under your direction  compile the sources and different information relating  to the fishing sites.  Do you recall that?  That's right.  And would one of the sources that they -- that were  compiled in order to assist in putting this together  be Exhibit 8?  :  I object.  How does this witness know that?  She 17249  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 didn't compile it.  It was another witness that --  2 another person that --  3 MR. GRANT:  Well, I'll lead —  4 MR. WILLMS:  Well, how about laying the foundation then.  5 MR. GRANT:  6 Q   Did you review the material that was compiled and go  7 over that material in your work with Mr. Morrell?  8 A   I began the project of compiling the information that  9 was available that had already been collected for the  10 fishing sites and when it proved to be very  11 time-consuming, somebody was hired to assist me and he  12 worked on it for a period of time and then I completed  13 it.  And it was this compilation of source of  14 information that was part of what was used.  15 Q   And you are familiar with the material that you  16 compiled; you know what it was?  17 A   Yes.  I couldn't list it off the top of my head.  18 But —  19 Q   No.  It did include a copy of map eight -- of Exhibit  20 8, I should say, that Kuldo map?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   In this court case Gwaans, Olive Ryan, Gwis gyen,  23 Stanley Williams, and Antgulilbix, Mary Johnson, all  24 have referred to fishing site maps.  My lord, the maps  25 that are pulled are not the exact ones.  I believe  26 they are in Exhibits 17 and 19, if I remember  27 correctly.  And these were fishing site maps of the  28 Gitsegukla area and the Gitwangak area, and the Skeena  29 and Kispiox River area.  Are you aware of those maps?  30 A   The ones that came out of the evidence of the -- of  31 those people?  32 Q   Yes.  33 A   Yes.  We used their evidence as part of the  34 information for this map.  35 Q   Do you recall when the late Kliiyem lax haa, Martha  36 Brown, gave evidence on Commission for the case?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   I believe it was in 1986?  39 A   Yes.  I remember that.  40 Q   And do you recall going on a field trip with Martha  41 Brown and Marvin George on the Kispiox valley where  42 she pointed out fishing sites to you and Marvin  43 George?  44 A   That's right.  45 Q   And did you keep notes of those and those locations?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And those you provided to Marvin George, isn't that 17250  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 right?  2 A   That's right.  3 Q   And were those notes and those observations you made  4 part of the data you relied upon in mapping -- in the  5 assisting of the mapping of this?  6 A   Yes.  She gave the sites several times and that was  7 one of the -- that was the time that we did it on  8 the -- on the ground.  9 Q   Okay.  You've referred here to the Barbeau microfilm  10 and the Duff files in which Duff had reviewed those  11 microfilms.  Does Barbeau in those files refer to  12 fishing sites, places that Gitksan chiefs described to  13 him as fishing sites in the 1920s?  14 A   Yes.  He lists fishing sites by chief and either the  15 name of the creek where they are or the approximate  16 location.  17 Q   From your work with those files and with the adaawk,  18 were you familiar -- you've already described you have  19 an extensive Gitksan vocabulary.  Did you become  20 familiar with the meanings of a number of names,  21 Gitksan words, what those names meant?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And did you assist Mr. Morrell in telling him the  24 meanings of names when he was telling you the  25 location -- when he was telling you what he observed?  26 A   Yes.  There were occasions when that was relevant,  27 yes.  28 Q   Okay.  In the adaawk you've referred to earlier, in  29 one of the eras that you are talking about about the  30 peoples, the importance of the fishery, the  31 development of the salmon fishery in your report, do  32 the adaawk refer to places that appear to be fishing  33 sites in connection with villages?  34 A  Well, some of the contemporary fishing sites are in  35 the location of ancient villages.  And those are  36 referred to in adaawk.  37 Q   Okay.  Can you just give an example?  38 A  Well, the fishing site at Wilson Creek is the site of  39 the village that we've been talking about Skwin  40 Skestaat.  41 Q   S-k-w-i-n S-k-e-s-t-a-a-t.  And is it in this sense of  42 the reliance upon the material that you were familiar  43 with that you assisted in working with Mr. Morrell and  44 in the production of that fishing site map relating to  45 Gitksan sites?  46 A   Yes.  Plus my general knowledge of the people and the  47 houses. 17251  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  MR.  GRANT  16  17  18  19  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  WILLM  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  THE  COURT  29  30  MR.  GRANT  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  GRANT  And how did you use that knowledge?  Well, he knew who was -- who -- he knew the English  names of the people who were using those fishing sites  and who told him that they owned them and then I  helped him with the Indian names in order to correlate  that information with the other sources of information  that had those Indian sites recorded by Indian name  rather than contemporary English name.  And the script at the top of this, was that your  writing?  Yes.  And that was a summation of the information that you  knew of relating to the fishing sites?  Yes.  :   Thank you.  That document is already an exhibit, my  lord, and it was admitted with the contingencies  that -- of how far Mr. Morrell could go and this was  the witness who worked on that document with Mr.  Morrell.  :  All right.  3:  My lord, my understanding is that it's been marked  with the underlying map, in other words what Mr. Skoda  did, but the facts that are contained there are not in  evidence, and if my friend is now suggesting that this  bit of evidence that he's led through Ms. Marsden now  turns all of this overlay into facts, I object.  It  does not turn it into a fact.  :  Well, that surely must be a matter of argument, is  it not?  :  Yes.  I don't think -- I certainly don't agree with  what my friend says.  Neither of -- we clearly don't  agree.  I have the transcript of reference and your  lordship at page 13971 said -- took out the commentary  at the top at that stage as Mr. Morrell had not  written it, and he says:  "It has some evidentiary value because (Mr.  Morrell) said has that he has seen many of these  sites that were in use.  He does not pretend to  have seen them all.  But other witnesses have  described a lot of these locations and this is a  far easier map to follow that the one that Olive  Ryan used, for example."  And then you put me in a cum periculum comment.  :  Yes.  :  And I am -- there were things that Mr. Morrell did 17252  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  not do but this witness did and a great objection was  taken to that.  This witness is now here and she's  explained what she did and how she ascribed to it.  MR. MACAULAY:  Are we arguing that point now?  THE COURT:  Sounds like it.  MR. MACAULAY:  Because I have something to say if we are.  THE COURT:  I don't think we are.  I think Mr. Grant is in the  position where he got his document in on terms that  Mr. Morrell had not proven all the facts that are  shown on the map, but he has the liberty to try and  supplement that.  He says he has done that now with  some other evidence.  In the due course as a matter of  argument it may appear that Mary Johnson's evidence --  or was it Olive Ryan or both?  GRANT:  Both.  COURT:  Had contributed evidence which would support what's  in the map.  It's a matter of argument, I think.  GRANT:  Yes.  COURT:  I am not ruling on it now.  GRANT:  I don't see any point in arguing it now given our  time frame with this witness. I just wish my friends  to be on notice that I wanted this witness to explain  what she had done.  You say you have added to the sum total of evidence  we have on this point.  MR. MACAULAY:  We should save our breath until later.  MR. WILLMS:  Except save for this, my lord, when it was marked  it was marked without the legend.  It was marked as if  the legend wasn't there, so for my friend to say that  it's been marked, it is not accurate.  THE COURT:  I am not sure about the legend.  The editorial  comment was left out.  MR. GRANT:  That's right.  It was marked without the editorial  comment.  The legend is in.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. GRANT:  All right.  And Mr. Morrell went on to explain what  parts of it meant.  THE COURT:  Should we take the afternoon adjournment?  MR. GRANT:  Yes, that's appropriate, my lord.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED PURSUANT TO AFTERNOON BREAK)  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE COURT 17253  foregoing to  be  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  I hereby certify the  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Laara Yardley, Official Reporter,  United Reporting Service Ltd. 17254  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  THE  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 3:15)  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  GRANT:  My lord, just to wrap up on this matter, I would ask  that just going to check over with respect to Exhibit  1042.  I believe that I would ask that tab 10, which  is --  COURT:  Hold it.  GRANT:  Sorry, my lord.  COURT:  Yes.  GRANT:  I believe that tabs 1 through 8 have been marked as  exhibits, and --  COURT:  I don't think —  GRANT:  And 6 and 7 were exhibits for identification only.  COURT:  Yes.  GRANT:  I would ask that Exhibit 8 —  COURT:  I'm not sure.  I don't have Exhibit 7 marked for  identification.  It may have been, but --  GRANT:  Exhibit 7 I had noted was marked for identification.  REGISTRAR:  Yes.  COURT:  Yes, all right.  REGISTRAR:  Did you say 9?  GRANT:  No.  I haven't said anything about 9  that tab 10 be marked as an exhibit.  from the Barbeau file that the witness referred to  earlier today.  COURT:  All right.  REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1042-10.  I would ask  It's an extract  (EXHIBIT 1042-10 - Extract from Barbeau file)  MR. GRANT:  I did not refer the witness to tab 9.  It's an  extract in the Duff files, and I don't see a need to  mark it as an exhibit, my lord.  THE COURT:  All right.  I don't have a mark on 12.  MR. GRANT:  It was marked for identification, my lord.  THE COURT:  Was it?  All right.  MR. GRANT:  7, 12 and 24 were part of her methodology.  Actually, I would ask that those exhibits be marked as  exhibits proper with the -- that they are part of her  notations demonstrating her methodology.  That's how  we've dealt with other exhibits, and they only go that  far, they don't go any further than that.  That's how  we dealt with methodological documents in the past.  THE COURT:  What numbers are those again?  MR. GRANT:  That would be 1042, bracket — tab 7, tab 12 and tab 17255  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 24, and sorry, and 6.  Yes, my friend raises 6 as  2 well.  3 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, on the methodology, essentially that  4 marking them to show methodology without disclosing  5 them can only be self-serving and not useful, and I  6 object.  There's just no point in marking them.  7 THE COURT:  I don't know what you mean by not disclosing them.  8 You mean they weren't disclosed previously?  9 MR. WILLMS:  No, no.  This is part of the massive package we got  10 last week and --  11 THE COURT:  Well, what's the point of marking them for  12 identification?  Well, I'm sorry, you're not asking  13 them to be marked for identification.  14 MR. GRANT:  They are marked for identification.  The witness has  15 identified them in evidence, she's explained what she  16 utilized them for, and with respect to documents that  17 go to methodology, they are marked for that purpose  18 solely.  I think that it may be misleading or  19 confusing down the road when we deal with argument.  20 My friends may challenge this witness' methodology and  21 everything else and then raise well, these are marked  22 for identification, therefore we can't even talk about  23 them, but the witness has explained what they are in  24 it tells of methodological approach, what we have done  25 with documents or notes for witnesses disclosed for  26 methodology.  27 THE COURT:  I don't think there's any magic in having them  28 marked as exhibits in terms of what we talked about.  29 They don't prove the facts that are stated in them and  30 don't prove anything except what mental processes  31 except to get where she is or what she relied upon.  32 They don't prove anything, and for that reason with  33 some hesitation I'm going to allow them to be marked.  34 MR. GRANT:  Thank you, my lord.  35 THE REGISTRAR:  Okay tab 7, 12, 24 and 6.  3 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  37  38 EXHIBIT 1042-6 formerly Exhibit 1042-6 for  39 identification Index cards re Origins of Kisgaast)  40  41 (EXHIBIT 1042-7 - formerly Exhibit 1042-7 for  42 identification Wolf Clan charts)  43  44 (EXHIBIT 1042-12 formerly Exhibit 1042 for  45 identification Frog Clan charts)  46  47 (EXHIBIT 1042-24 formerly Exhibit 1042 for 17256  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 identification Eagle Clan charts)  2 MR. GRANT:  Just one moment, my lord.  I do not need to mark tab  3 15, tab 16, or -- just a moment -- tab 17, 18.  I  4 would ask for tab 19 now to be marked as an exhibit  5 proper.  The only -- this is the Barbeau-Beynon file  6 material.  My friend's only concern was he wanted an  7 opportunity to compare the typescript in which Miss  8 Marsden's explained that she's respelled some of the  9 names.  10 MR. WILLMS:  And my lord, in that respelling not only is there  11 respelling, but there's renaming, and that involves  12 opinion, and so I object.  For example, the very first  13 one, fourth line down, she's changed  14 G-I-S-L-A-G-A-N-O' to N-I-I-S-L-A-G-A-N-O-O-S, and  15 there's a number of other ones.  16 MR. GRANT:  Just a second.  Where are you referring to?  17 MR. WILLMS:  I'm —  18 THE COURT:  On the typescript?  19 MR. WILLMS:  On the typescript.  So what's happened is there's  20 been an application of opinion here as she's sorted  21 out what Barbeau has done, I suppose, and corrected  22 what Barbeau's done or whatever, but there's the  23 application of opinion there.  I don't object to  24 Barbeau going in, my lord, I do object to the witness'  25 opinion.  2 6 THE COURT:  But the change she has made is in handwriting, and  27 it is clearly identifiable.  28 MR. GRANT:  And she gave evidence on that very point three days  29 ago where she said that in Barbeau's orthography, if  30 that's the part -- the whole analysis she had to have  31 in reading this material, she had to be able to  32 understand her orthography well enough to be able to  33 understand that that spelling was what your lordship  34 would have heard of as Niislaganoos, and that's what  35 she has done with respect to the --  36 THE COURT:  Well, inasmuch as the change is clearly visible and  37 the original is there as well as the suggested change,  38 I see no reason to keep the document out on that  39 account, Mr. Willms.  40 MR. WILLMS:  Well, my lord, there's no question there's been  41 changes.  My only point here is that this is opinion,  42 it's not -- and my friend has just made it clear that  43 it's opinion.  44 THE COURT:  Yes.  But I'm going to ignore it.  45 MR. WILLMS:  Thank you, my lord.  46 THE COURT:  I'm going to ignore the change in the sense that if  47 I find the document to be of use I'm going to have to 17257  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  make use of it in its original form.  It may be that  the suggested change will assist me to understand it,  but I will have to treat the document as being one  that's in the evidence in its original form.  :  Yes.  And that's why --  :  She may lead me to -- this note may lead me to reach  the same conclusion on my own.  :  That's right.  :  I don't think that the change can go in as part of  the evidence, because as Mr. Willms says, that is  opinion.  But I don't think there's anything important  that it turns on.  That may be now marked as an  exhibit, 1042-19.  (EXHIBIT 1042-19 formerly Exhibit 1042-19 for  identification Barbeau-Beynon file material)  MR. GRANT:  And the same with 1042-20.  THE COURT:  I don't have it marked at all.  MR. WILLMS:  The witness referred to it at the same time -- I  note, my lord, that I don't either.  The witness  referred to both of these at the same time.  I think  we dealt with 1042 --  THE COURT:  They're exactly the same basis, so it will be the  next exhibit.  (EXHIBIT 1042-20 - Formerly Exhibit for  identification 1042-20 Spookw adaawk)  MR. GRANT:  Yes.  21 has already been marked, it's not  necessary.  22 wasn't mentioned.  No.  It hasn't been mentioned.  It's not necessary  to deal with 22 or 23.  24 I believe we've already  dealt with earlier.  Yes.  And 25 has been marked.  Yes.  Now, 26, my lord, your lordship takes the liberty of  using some of the empty tabs.  Now, 26 actually has  been marked in part, and that is -- okay, the first  one, two, three, four pages haven't been referred to  and may be excised.  COURT:  The first four?  GRANT:  Yes.  And what has been marked is the next three  pages, the Men of Mediik and the summary of events,  and the chronology of events of Men of Mediik and Wars  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  THE  MR. 1725?  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  THE  COURT  3  4  MR.  GRANT  5  THE  COURT  6  7  8  MR.  GRANT  9  THE  COURT  10  11  MR.  GRANT  12  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  GRANT  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  GRANT  17  18  THE  COURT  19  THE  REGIS  20  MR.  GRANT  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  THE  COURT  31  32  33  34  MR.  GRANT  35  36  THE  COURT  37  38  39  40  41  MR.  GRANT  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  COURT  of Mediik, and that was marked as Exhibit --  I've got the first five pages, so that's what you  mean, Mr. Grant?  Sorry, my lord, well --  I've got Chronology of Events and Men of Mediik  marked at -- I'm sorry, that is a reference to where  Men of Mediik may be found.  That's right.  898.  So you say the first four pages have been taken out.  I've taken them out.  And then you have a Men of Mediik, Summary of Events  and Chronology of Events in Men of Mediik?  Yes.  I don't have marked at all.  You haven't got either of those marked at all?  No.  I have a note that they were marked, but maybe my  note was --  Exhibit 26 madam registrar?  RAR:  No.  It's not marked.  I would ask that those be marked.  In fact, my lord,  we dealt with that.  My friend raised his objection,  you may recall, to the question of generations in many  years, and that Mediik -- I think it was yesterday or  two days ago that we've talked about the Men of Mediik  and Wars of Mediik on and on and on, and that this --  the witness has basically taken these key events  described in the Men of Mediik and then put  generations, many years and centuries.  I recall us  arguing that out two days ago.  I think it should be in simply because there was a  good deal of evidence about it and it won't make any  sense if it's not here. I don't think it will prove  anything additional to his evidence.  No.  Men of Mediik and Wars of Mediik is in, it's an  aid to your lord.  Yes.  (EXHIBIT 1042-26  Chronology)  Men of Mediik Summary and  27 is in.  Now, the last two pages I would ask your  lordship to put in, as it can either go in under one  of the other tabs and I could re-index for your  lordship, the aerial photo the witness referred to  this morning of Kitselas Canyon.  That was the last  page in that tab.  Which tab? 17259  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  MR.  GRANT  2  THE  COURT  3  MR.  GRANT  4  THE  COURT  5  6  MR.  GRANT  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  GRANT  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  GRANT  19  20  THE  COURT  21  22  MR.  GRANT  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  47  THE  COURT  Tab 26, the last page.  Is it?  It's this, my lord.  Yes.  I saw it a moment ago, but I've lost it now.  Oh, I'm sorry, I thought -- it's not part of 1042-26.  Yes, yes, it is.  I think it is.  Yes, it is .  We can leave it where it is.  The witness referred to it as the last page of  1042-26.  Now, I did not refer to the sketch map in  front of it, although it links the two together, and  I'm not wedded to that.  I mean, in other words, if my  friend -- if I can ask my friend a question about it  if my friend is going to make a big objection I'm not  going to spend more time.  :  How about a small objection?  :  The day my friend makes a small objection I think  I'll sit down.  :  I don't think any harm is going to come of this  being included as part of 26.  Thank you, my lord.  And then 27 is included.  Maybe I  can refer the witness to that map just so there's some  identification of it at tab 26, the second to last  page.  Did you recognize that map of the Kitselas  Canyon?  Yes.  And there are notations and numbers on that map which  refer to certain places on that map?  Yes.  And are those notations made by yourself?  Well, they're the ones that are printed with the map.  The strong larger circles and the other notations are  mine.  And this map came out of the same publication as the  aerial photo you referred to earlier?  That's right.  And the handwritten numbering, you've put a key of  what those are at the bottom?  Yes.  And is that the key of those places taken out of the  Men of Mediik and Wars of Mediik?  Yes.  Those are the various locations on the river  banks below in and above the canyon where people of  Kitselas lived over time.  :  I haven't been along there for several years; how 17260  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  far would you say the canyon is from Terrace?  A   It's just up the road.  COURT:  It's very close to Terrace?  A   Yes.  GRANT:  I think on the train -- I just was on the train,  it's about ten minutes.  COURT:  Yes, all right.  WILLMS:  Is that Via Rail.  GRANT:  The former Via Rail.  You will have to ask Mr.  Macaulay.  And then I've already put in I believe tab  27.  Has it been marked?  COURT:  It's in, yes, it has.  GRANT:  Now, the other point, my lord, I believe from my  notations that the three volumes of Duff files have  now been marked as exhibits, as have the tabs or  Exhibits 1046, 1047, 1048 and 1049, which are the  adaawk, the narrative -- they are the excerpted  narratives from those four volumes of Barbeau.  THE COURT:  Yes.  They're in as documented records of those  narratives and not necessarily proof of everything  that's stated in them.  MR. GRANT:  Not necessarily proof of everything that's stated in  them.  I think they're covered by your earlier ruling  on adaawk, and I of course -- I think my colleague,  Mr. Jackson, suggested at some point we may revisit  that ruling, but they are there.  THE COURT:  Yes.  I should mention to counsel that I was  noticing the other day the Ontario Court of Appeal  pronounced on proof of historical matters in the  Zumbel Appeal.  Counsel may want to look at that, it's  quite close to what we've been talking about.  GRANT:  Thank you, my lord.  And that just came down?  COURT:  Yes.  It's within the last three or four months.  I  just happened to see it the other day.  I spend as  much time as I can with the Ontario courts.  It's  reported in the -- I think it's in the Canadian  Criminal Law, C.C.C. I think, that's what it is.  MR. GRANT:  Now, my lord, the other -- of course finally I  believe the report, volume 1 and 2 has been marked as  exhibit 1050.  COURT:  Yes.  GRANT:  And I would be asking for the marking of map 1 of  Exhibit 348 -- or 358, I should say, being the map  produced by this witness as Exhibit 358-1, and I would  also ask for the enlargement of that map, that is the  wall map, to be marked as exhibit -- I believe the  next number is Exhibit 1051.  MR.  THE  THE  MR. 17261  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 MR. GRANT:  Mr. WiUrn's book is 1051.  Exhibit 1052 then, the  2 large map.  3 THE COURT:  Yes.  4 MR. WILLMS:  All right.  5 THE COURT:  But not as proof of the statement.  6 MR. GRANT:  I'm in your lordship's hands.  The other alternative  7 is it could be Exhibit 358(1)(a).  It's in the  8 enlargement of -- one of the map atlas.  9 THE COURT:  I've already marked it 1052.  10  11 (EXHIBIT 1052 - Enlarged map)  12  13 MR. GRANT:  Well, if it's in pen, I think that's the way we  14 should go.  So I would ask that that exhibit be  15 marked.  And this witness is the author -- not the  16 drafter but the author of everything on that except  17 for the press document.  18 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, just on that point, my friend has been  19 kind enough to give me the underlying drafts, which  20 don't support all the information that's on there.  So  21 I'm a bit uneasy.  I know my friend says that I  22 suppose what went to Mr. Skoda came from the witness  23 somehow, but I haven't seen it, so I haven't been able  24 to assure myself -- there are names that have been  25 added to the two draft maps Miss Marsden prepared, for  26 example, some places have changed slightly, and so  27 just in terms of --  2 8 THE COURT:  Well, shouldn't you deal with it in  29 cross-examination?  30 MR. WILLMS:  Well, my lord, the problem -- it's a foundation  31 problem really, my lord.  I mean normally these go in  32 because my friend gives me all the documents ahead of  33 time and I assure myself that the proper foundation is  34 in, and then there's no difficulty, but here of  35 course, as I've just said, the proper foundation  36 hasn't been disclosed.  If my friend were to formally  37 approve the document with the foundation, he couldn't  38 do it, because he -- it doesn't appear to be here.  39 But I don't mind it being marked as a document if the  40 witness referred to it.  41 THE COURT:  We'll mark it for that limited purpose for now, and  42 maybe you can satisfy your friend.  43 MR. GRANT:  Well, my lord, I'm very concerned about what my  44 friend is saying.  This witness -- this document has  45 been disclosed to my friend since last November.  This  46 witness has described that all the writing on the  47 document is hers, she has described in detail what the 17262  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 mapping is.  The drafts that my friend referred to are  2 the drafts of the mapping.  I do agree that they don't  3 have the little boxes, but this witness has given  4 sworn testimony that that is all her writing and her  5 conclusions, and the underlying documents have been  6 disclosed to my friend, and I ask that that document  7 go in, subject to cross-examination.  My friend -- the  8 witness adopted it, it forms part of her opinion.  9 THE COURT:  What are you saying is missing, Mr. Willms?  10 MR. WILLMS:  Well, for example, and I just see if I can find it.  11 I've got copies of the two sketch maps.  There's no  12 Laxwiiyip on the sketch maps, so obviously somebody  13 added Laxwiiyip later on from -- I'm not talking about  14 the non-map part, my lord.  The witness has said that  15 all of the other portions she wrote, except for of  16 course -- I'm just talking about the map part, and so  17 the sketch maps that I received when you try to match  18 them up and make those maps, you can't do it.  There's  19 information --  20 THE COURT:  What are the sketch maps?  Are they what the wall  21 map is supposed to have been made from?  22 MR. GRANT:  As I understand it from my friend, that map was made  23 from these two sketch maps.  That's what my  24 understanding is, and if that's the case, there's  25 some -- there's some gaps.  26 MR. GRANT:  Well, together with consultation of this witness  27 with Mr. Skoda, this witness is not a cartographer,  28 and we've been endeavouring to try and shorten  29 matters.  30 THE COURT:  All right.  I think the map can be marked as an  31 exhibit, and I think this problem can be dealt with in  32 cross-examination.  If it turns out there's something  33 in that shouldn't be there or there's some reason why  34 it shouldn't be an exhibit and as a result of  35 cross-examination then I can unmark it.  36 MR. GRANT:  Or admitted at that stage, I think that's what  37 I'm --  38 THE COURT:  All right.  1052.  39 THE COURT:  Finished, Mr. Grant?  40 MR. GRANT:  I'm sorry, my lord, that is -- I believe I have now  41 completed, and I want to just say that I spoke with  42 the witness at the break, I also spoke with my friend,  43 Mr. Willms.  He's not as optimistic as he was  44 concerning time, and --  45 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, I'm still optimistic regarding the one day  46 that I told my friend about.  I'm not as optimistic  47 about tomorrow afternoon as I was earlier. 17263  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  THE  COURT:  2  MR.  GRANT:  3  4  5  6  THE  COURT:  7  MR.  GRANT:  8  9  10  THE  COURT:  11  12  13  14  15  MR.  WILLMS  16  17  18  19  THE  COURT:  20  MR.  GRANT:  21  MR.  WILLMS  22  23  24  25  26  THE  COURT:  27  28  CROSS-EXAM  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  THE  COURT:  37  38  MR.  WILLMS  39  THE  COURT:  40  MR.  WILLMS  41  THE  COURT:  42  MR.  WILLMS  43  44  45  THE  COURT:  46  MR.  WILLMS  47  Yes, all right.  Well, see how we get on.  And I just -- also I spoke with the witness before  the break, and she did not have that much sleep last  night, and so I just -- I'm just saying that in  advance.  Well —  I'm certainly in agreement to starting early  tomorrow as well, if your lordship -- I don't know how  your lordship's schedule is.  I can start early tomorrow if I have to.  I think we  should sit for a little bit longer tonight if we can.  The witness will -- if the witness wears out on us I  won't be surprised, or we all wear out.  Go ahead, Mr.  Willms.  :  Thank you, my lord.  And I understand my friend, he  hopes to have that document down for your lordship  tomorrow morning, so hopefully we can deal with that  at an early time.  All right.  Well, yeah.  I've arranged my files to come down.  :  I wonder if Exhibit 1043 and 1042 could be put  before the witness.  Miss Marsden, could you turn to  tab 1 of Exhibit 1043, please.  And please turn to  the -- this is an adaawk entitled the "Gitksedzaw",  G-I-T-K-S-E-D-A-W, "Village Of The Nass".  Where are you, Mr. Willms?  EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLMS:  I'm at tab 1, my lord, of 1043, but I'm past the  summary.  And Miss Marsden, is this an old adaawk?  Yes.  Do you mean old in the sense of the events it  refers to, or in the sense of when it was recorded?  No.  In the sense of the events that it refers to; is  it old?  Yes.  I haven't found what you're talking about yet, Mr.  Willms.  :  My lord, 1043.  Tab 1.  :  Tab 1, the first three pages are typewritten.  Mine aren't, mine are handwritten.  :  Yours -- the handwritten portion in yours, my lord,  might be after tab 1, and in mine it's before -- I  don't know whether mine's right or --  It's headed "Ancient History of the Giskaast".  :  Yes.  That's page 1 of the volume, but my tab 1  doesn't start until after a map.  There's a map. 17264  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 THE COURT:  Well, that's — oh, I'm sorry, you're quite right.  2 I'm looking at the first tab rather than tab 1.  I  3 have it now.  4 MR. WILLMS:  And it's the fourth page in, my lord, where the  5 actual adaawk starts.  6 THE COURT:  Yes.  7 MR. WILLMS:  8 Q   Now, how old are the events -- how old are the oldest  9 events described in this adaawk?  10 A  Well, this is the event that I described that took  11 place -- that I concluded took place at Laxwiiyip, and  12 the people that are being talked about, the Gitksedzaw  13 are the people who settled at the mouth of the Nass  14 River there, and I place it in the time period prior  15 to Temlaxam.  16 Q   So are you saying you just place it somewhere before  17 3500 BP, or is it before 7000 BP?  Can you put a time  18 on it?  19 A  Well, I dealt with that period.  Do you want me to go  20 through the account that I gave in evidence already?  21 Q   No.  I would just like you to tell me the oldest date  22 that this represents to you, this adaawk?  23 A   The oldest possible date?  24 Q   Yes?  25 A  Well, in that early period you can see that in the  26 creation of the Fireweed I put a wide range of dates.  27 The earliest map deals with the -- with references to  28 deglaciation and empty land and so on, and this  29 occurs, and then the disbursal from Temlaxam occurs,  30 and so I've placed in between, and that's why I've  31 left a wide range of dates for that.  32 Q   So this is somewhere between 9000 and 4000 BP?  33 A  Well, Laxwiiyip was probably just deglaciated at 9000,  34 so it's not likely to have taken place then, and it's  35 not likely to have been as close as 4000 BP because  36 Temlaxam was established for a long time.  It's  37 probably in the mid-range.  38 Q   Say 7000?  39 A   Or 6, to be conservative.  40 Q   Now, just keeping that open, would you turn to the tab  41 27 in 1042, which is the Historical Atlas of Canada,  42 and this is plate 6, which is something that you  43 referred to and is consistent with your opinion; is  44 that correct -- plate 8, sorry?  45 A   Inasmuch as my opinion covers a certain limited area,  46 yes.  47 Q   Yes.  And you know that this plate represents or 17265  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 purports to represent cultural sequences from 1000 BC  2 to AD 500?  3 A   That's right.  4 Q   And so in terms of BP, that's 3000 BP to 1500 BP,  5 correct?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   All right.  8 A   Give or take a decade.  9 Q   If you look down to the description, and you've  10 read -- I think my friend read part of it to you, it's  11 on the first page:  12  13 "During the period from 1000 BC to AD 500 the  14 diffusion of ideas rather than the migration  15 of people appears to have been the major mechanism  16 for cultural change.  Around 1000 B.C. pottery  17 spread from Asia across northern Alaska to the  18 Yukon coast and from the south to much of eastern  19 Canada.  The bow and arrow also spread rapidly,  20 probably from a number of independent sources."  21  22 Now, you accept that, don't you?  23 A   Not necessarily, no.  24 MR. WILLMS:  No?  Because if you turn to the adaawk which you've  25 dated 6000 to 7000 BP, you will see in the third  26 paragraph describing an early fight:  27  28 "After a time, a fight broke out, because of the  29 gambling.  They uttered challenges and then began  30 to shoot arrows; they used barbed and pointed  31 spears called K'yeen, and they fought bitterly.  32 They had all sorts of weapons, each man his own.  33 A good many used only bow and arrows."  34  35 So if it's -- if the cultural sequence --  36 MR. GRANT:  Well, you should read the rest of that sentence.  37 MR. WILLMS:  38 Q  39 "bows and arrows, others, the hanrallar, a weapon  40 made of bone with pointed blade, club-like."  41  42 Now, just referring to the bow and arrows; you will  43 agree with me that if this description in the cultural  44 sequence, plate 8, is correct, this adaawk isn't much  45 older than 3,000 years; is that correct?  46 A   I'm not familiar with the work that has led to this  47 conclusion about the bow and arrow, and it's -- as 17266  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 opposed to the work that led to the conclusions that I  2 quoted here.  I'm familiar with the sources of the  3 information and why they say that, and I'm comfortable  4 with the conclusions that I used out of this excerpt.  5 I don't therefore adopt everything in this atlas.  6 Q   Well, let's put it this way:  Assuming that the atlas  7 is correct, then your dating for the adaawk is  8 incorrect?  9 A   Not necessarily.  10 Q   Well, so —  11 A  As I said earlier, when I do the dating, it involves  12 not only putting things in chronology but using a  13 number of different versions, and the weight of the  14 descriptions in the different versions and the  15 assessment of the informant also play a part in my  16 conclusions as to why -- whether I put it in a certain  17 chronology or not.  Now, the bow and arrow has never  18 been something that I've used as an indication of  19 time-depth, because I'm not sure that we have  20 definitive proof of when the bow and arrow began to be  21 used on the north coast.  22 MR. WILLMS:  All right.  So can I put it this way:  You're  23 unaware of the archaeological information on when  24 arrow heads were first located in this area; is that  25 correct?  26 MR. GRANT:  In which area?  27 MR. WILLMS:   The map area.  28 MR. GRANT:  The north coast area generally?  29 MR. WILLMS:  30 Q   Well, whatever that big map is.  Are you aware of any  31 of the archaeological information on how old arrow  32 heads are from any of the area that you've mapped on  33 your map, Ancient Times, the arrival about 10000 years  34 BP?  35 A   I know that the heads that are commonly called arrow  36 heads are described as being used for spears and as  37 well as arrows, and I'm not sure that they can define  38 by finding them in a dig whether they're arrow heads  39 or spear heads.  Microblades, for example, were used  40 for a number of different purposes.  It's not a --  41 MR. WILLMS:  The answer is you don't know.  42 MR. GRANT:  Just hold on.  I think she was in the middle of a  43 sentence.  44 MR. WILLMS:  45 Q   If you do know, please let me know which digs?  46 A   I'm not conversant with the archaeological data on  47 that, no. 17267  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GRANT  MR.  MR. GRANT  MR. WILLMS:  But so you will agree with me though that assuming  that the Map Atlas of Canada, exhibit plate 8,  assuming that that represents an introduction of bow  and arrow technology to the coast 3,000 years ago,  you've misdated the adaawk?  I object, my lord.  I object because that's not what  is said in that statement.  My friend is misstating  what's in the map atlas in that sentence in that he's  totally changed around what that sentence says.  WILLMS:  Well, I don't know what my friend is exercised  about, my lord.  It says cultural sequences 1000 B.C.  to A.D. 500, it's got a little arrow down the coast  talking about an Asiatic warfare pattern, 1000 B.C,  and in a paragraph that starts talking about diffusion  of ideas it talks about the diffusion of pottery ideas  and then about bow and arrow, but maybe my friend sees  something that I can't.  I will assist my friend, because what it says is  quite simply this:  In talking it says:  "The bow and arrow also spread rapidly, probably  from a number of independent sources."  That's it.  Where are those independent sources?  It  doesn't say it spread from Asia, it doesn't say it  spread from Vancouver Island, it doesn't say where.  It's talking about cultural sequences, 1000 B.C. to  A.D. 500.  GRANT:  Yes.  COURT:  Doesn't matter where it came from.  GRANT:  Well, it says from a number of independent sources,  and one of them may have been this very place, who  knows.  It doesn't say that.  COURT:  From what very place?  GRANT:  From the place at Laxwiiyip.  COURT:  It wouldn't matter it was invented there.  That  wouldn't affect your friend's question.  GRANT:  Oh, but —  COURT:  That's the source of the bow and arrow, it spread  from there.  The fact of the matter is if it spread  from there between 1000 and 500 it seems to me the  answer to Mr. Willms' question is obvious.  This  couldn't have happened in the time sequence the  witness has described.  It didn't matter where it  spread from, if that's when it spread, or are you  suggesting that maybe it was there all along and only  spread at that time.  THE COURT  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE 1726?  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  MR.  GRANT:  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  THE  COURT:  11  MR.  GRANT:  12  13  14  15  16  THE  COURT:  17  18  19  MR.  WILLMS  20  Q  21  A  22  THE  COURT:  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  MR.  WILLMS  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  42  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  Well, you see, it's a very truncated statement is --  what it says:  The bow and arrow spread rapidly, possibly from a  number of independent sources."  Now, it's entirely consistent with that statement that  the bow and arrow was at this location at that period  of time.  It just says independent sources.  It didn't spread until 1000 B.C.  I don't know.  The sentence is totally inconclusive,  but it doesn't contradict what the witness is saying.  My friend is suggesting that it does, and I'm just  saying he has to go a little further than this one  sentence.  I think that you can pursue your cross-examination,  Mr. Willms.  Seems to me what you asked the witness is  a matter of argument as much as anything else.  I'll move along, my lord.  Can I continue with the answer?  Yes.  If archaeology -- if you find something at a certain  level, it doesn't preclude the possibility of finding  it at an earlier level, it simply states that it's  there at that time period.  If their evidence  indicates the spread of the bow and arrow at this time  period, it doesn't preclude the existence of the bow  and arrow prior to that, it simply indicates that they  have not found any in archaeological digs, unlike the  evidence that I was quoting which simply said that  there was warfare.  It did not preclude warfare prior  to that time period.  It was simply a corroboration.  How long was it between the time that the Mediik  destroyed Temlaxam and the snowfall?  That's one of the time ranges that isn't explicit.  It  appears to be closer to the disbursal than to the  founding.  So is that a year?  Isn't there a reference in the  snowfall adaawk that the people had forgotten all  about the Mediik adaawk, about what happened when the  Mediik destroyed Temlaxam or parts of it?  Isn't that  part of the adaawk?  Do you have it at hand?  You don't recall?  If I remember correctly, they had forgotten the 17269  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 precepts of the mountain goat, and it may well be  2 reiterated that they had forgotten the precepts of the  3 Mediik, and that could be a span of a couple of  4 hundred years, 300 years, 400 years.  5 Q   Now, the disbursal from Temlaxam took place after the  6 snowfall?  7 A   That's the same event, yes.  8 Q   All right.  Could Exhibit 784 be put before the  9 witness, please.  My lord, this is a cross-examination  10 binder for Messrs. Gottesfeld, Mathewes, and a group  11 of the early witnesses.  Could you turn to tab 1.  Tab  12 1 is a summary proposal for Paleoenvironmental  13 Research by Dr. Rolf Mathewes.  Have you ever seen  14 this before?  15 A   No.  16 Q   Now, if you turn to page 2, in this summary by Dr.  17 Mathewes, he says, and I'm under, you will see, Task  18 2, "Detailed Corroboration of Oral History", and then  19 a paragraph 2.0, and then if you just skip the first  20 paragraph there, he starts the next paragraph:  21  22 "Detecting the 'Great Snowfall', if it was an event  23 of only one season or even a decade, is unlikely  24 in a pollen diagram."  25  26 Just stopping there; is there more than one "Great  27 Snowfall" in Gitksan oral tradition, or is there one?  28 A  Well, they refer to periods when the glaciers got  29 larger, but in terms of the "Great Snowfall", there's  30 just the one adaawk.  31 Q   And if you turn to page -- the top of the next page,  32 you will see Dr. Mathewes talks about this.  He says:  33  34 "A literature survey should be undertaken to  35 summarize geological and especially tree-ring  36 evidence of neoglacial cooling, it is possible,  37 for example, that the 'Great Snowfall' might refer  38 to the 'Year Without a Summer', identified as 1816  39 in eastern Canada."  40  41 Just pausing there; have you ever heard of that, "The  42 Year Without a Summer"?  43 A   Yes, I have.  44 Q   And had you ever considered that perhaps the "Great  45 Snowfall" took place at the same time as the "Year  4 6 Without the Summer"?  47 A   No.  Because it didn't work, wouldn't work. 17270  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   It didn't work in your sequencing; is that correct?  2 A   First of all, when -- the description of the "Great  3 Snowfall" is extremely problematic, because there's a  4 tremendous snowfall in a very limited area, and then  5 you go down river and it's spring.  In all of the  6 analysis of the adaawk I tried to examine whether  7 there would be scientific dating that could help.  And  8 in some cases -- in this case there obviously wasn't  9 any, and the actual events were such that they were --  10 were such that I decided to consider them as symbolic,  11 which was a process that I went through with  12 everything, and if it didn't affect the essential  13 facts of the case, which was the people could no  14 longer live at Temlaxam and migrated, and that's what  15 I was concerned with in terms of what I was doing, and  16 it didn't matter that it was symbolic or not symbolic.  17 I understand that the description all the adaawk of  18 the "Great Snowfall" to indicate a time when they  19 could no longer live from the resources, and possibly  20 as a result of some climate change, but that is not  21 part of my opinion.  22 Q   Did you know that dating the "Great Snowfall" was  23 something that had been considered in this case?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Were you not interested in seeing at least how far the  26 scientific evidence could go to do that?  27 A   Yes.  There were a number of events similar to that,  28 only less problematic in terms that they weren't  29 possibly symbolic, and in a number of cases the  30 scientific facts simply were not helpful.  31 Q   Well, certainly the fact of 1816 for the "Great  32 Snowfall" would not be helpful to your chronology,  33 would it?  34 A   Yes.  But the summer -- the "Year Without a Summer"  35 wasn't a "Great Snowfall" either.  I mean if you had a  36 climatologist describe the "Year Without a Summer" you  37 wouldn't get the description of the "Great Snowfall",  38 so I mean it doesn't prove anything either way.  It  39 was simply an exploration of a possibility.  40 Q   However, if Dr. Mathewes had been successful in his  41 tree-ring analysis, it may have changed your  42 chronology somewhat, wouldn't you agree?  43 A   If he had been able to show and describe an event that  44 had exactly duplicated their description, but I don't  45 think that's possible, and it wouldn't have changed  46 the chronology, it would only have presented a problem  47 in terms of putting dates beside the chronology.  The 17271  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 chronology's internal.  2 Q   By chronology, you mean what comes before something  3 else?  4 A   That's right.  5 Q   So that the chronology that you have done is something  6 that no matter when it got started, the chronology in  7 your opinion would stay the same, the events that  8 preceded other events would be the same?  9 A   That's right.  Plus there are indications of time  10 periods within the adaawk and indications of time  11 depth within the adaawk.  12 MR. WILLMS:  Yes.  13 THE COURT:  Do you want a short break?  14 MR. WILLMS:  Well, if we're going to carry on until 5:00, my  15 lord, it might be helpful.  16 THE COURT:  All right.  We'll take a short break.  17 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  18  19 (RECESS TAKEN AT 4:10)  2 0 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 4:25)  21  22 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  2 3 THE COURT:  Mr. Willms.  24 MR. WILLMS:  25 Q   Miss Marsden, did you review and critique drafts of  26 other experts' reports?  27 A   I wouldn't say critiqued.  28 Q   Did you review drafts of other experts' reports?  29 A   In the very beginning there were a few drafts that I  30 read, and then after that I didn't read either drafts  31 or reports until my opinion was completed.  32 Q   And whose drafts did you read?  33 A   I read the Summary of the Ancient Village References  34 by Linda Hogarth.  I think I read a couple of reports  35 that were not -- were never tendered, I mean they were  36 decided they weren't going to use them.  37 Q   Did you play any part in that decision making?  38 A   No.  39 Q   Of the experts that have been called, who else?  40 A   I can't really recall.  41 Q   So Hogarth is the only one you can recall?  42 A  Well, I was working in the Tribal Council office, and  43 there were people around and there were conversations,  44 but that wasn't what I was doing.  People came and  45 went a lot when I was there, but I was doing work for  46 council, and then I was extremely busy writing my  47 report. 17272  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 MR. WILLMS:  Well, you reviewed Mr. Morrell's, didn't you; you  2 remember that?  3 MR. GRANT:  His report?  4 MR. WILLMS:  5 Q   Yes, a draft?  6 A   I may have, but I don't remember the content of it.  7 Q   Did you tell any other expert that you did not think  8 they should include an item in their report?  9 A   No.  10 Q   My lord, I'm reading from Mr. Gottesfeld -- Dr.  11 Gottesfeld's evidence of October 28th, page 9224,  12 starting at line 42.  It's volume 145.  Dr. Gottesfeld  13 gave evidence and said this:  14  15 "Q Did you speak to Susan Marsden about any  16 of your draft reports?  17 A Yes, there were conversations.  18 Q Did your report change at all as a result  19 of those conversations?  20 A Yes.  No, not in terms of was there  21 something written in there that I did not  22 include, but there was an item that I did  23 not include after I discussed it with her.  24 I said 'Well, do you think I should put this  25 item in', and she did not think I should."  26  27 Do you remember that now?  28 A   No.  You asked me if I told somebody to take something  29 out.  That's not the same as my opinion.  I was not in  30 a capacity to tell anybody anything, I was not an  31 administrator.  32 Q   My question, and I read it word for word, was did you  33 tell any other expert that you did not think they  34 should include an item in their report, and your  35 answer was no?  36 A  Well, I understood that as telling him to take it out,  37 and I don't recall that conversation with Dr.  38 Gottesfeld.  39 Q   So there may have been other experts that you talked  40 to that you can't recall right now, you may have  41 discussed their report with them?  42 A   There were a lot of discussions going on at the time,  43 but I was not working in the capacity as an editor or  44 as a decision maker.  45 MR. WILLMS:  Did you communicate in writing with any other  46 experts?  47 MR. GRANT:  Here is my friend referring to experts who have 17273  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 given evidence in the case?  2 MR. WILLMS:  3 Q   Yes.  4 A   There was a point early on when -- I'm not sure  5 whether it was by phone or in writing when I  6 communicated with one or the other of the linguists, I  7 think, but that was simply because somebody had said  8 "Well, why don't you do it".  9 Q   You've known Dr. Gottesfeld for quite a period of  10 time?  11 A   I knew him on a private not on a personal basis.  12 MR. WILLMS:  If you still have Exhibit 784 in front of you, can  13 you turn to tab 7, please.  14 THE COURT:  Which exhibit, please?  15 MR. WILLMS:  16 Q   784-7, my lord.  It was the one marked Dr. Mathewes,  17 Gottesfeld, et al.  This is a draft of Dr.  18 Gottesfeld's report entitled "Stekyooden Landslides",  19 and it's dated July 14th, 1985.  Do you recall whether  20 you reviewed this report at any time?  21 A   It's hard to remember.  I've seen his final report  22 recently.  23 Q   So you might have seen that?  24 A   I might have seen this, yes.  25 Q   You will see that in the introduction to the report,  26 on page 2 there is a discussion in the second  27 paragraph of the one-horned mountain goat of Temlaham;  28 do you see that discussion?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And that -- that adaawk is associated with the  31 landslide; is that correct?  32 A   In the adaawk it's described in two ways; one as a  33 part of the mountain literally collapsing underneath  34 the people, and in the other is the people falling off  35 the edge of a big cliff.  36 Q   And you will see Dr. Gottesfeld also sets out the  37 Mediik, a reference to the Mediik adaawk in the third  38 paragraph?  And of course that's the adaawk of the  39 bear, which destroyed part of Temlaxam?  40 A   That's the one in Men of Mediik, yes.  41 Q   Then if you turn to page 4, you will see that Dr.  42 Gottesfeld takes up the whole page dealing with the  43 Carnaby Debris Fan.  Have you heard of the Carnaby  44 Debris Fan before?  45 A   Before this moment?  46 Q   Yes?  47 A   Yes.  Oh, the Carnaby Debris Fan, I don't know. 17274  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   As opposed to Chicago Creek?  2 A   Gee, I don't know.  3 MR. WILLMS:  Did no one —  4 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  The witness would like to just look  5 at it, let her look at the exhibit.  6 MR. WILLMS:  7 Q   All right.  I don't know if it helps you, but at the  8 very end he refers to mountain goats?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Seen above the debris.  Now, do you recall the Carnaby  11 Debris Fan, anybody telling you about it?  12 A   No.  But I recall a discussion about whether it would  13 be possible to do an exploration to see if a major  14 portion of Stekyooden had collapsed and to date it.  I  15 don't recall it as being called the Carnaby Debris  16 Fan.  I don't recall there being any results coming  17 out of that exploration.  18 Q   You weren't told of Dr. Gottesfeld's carbon-dating  19 results from the Carnaby Debris Fan; is that correct?  20 A  Well, no.  21 Q   No?  22 A   If I was, I don't recall it.  23 Q   Did you understand that the Carnaby Debris Fan is a  24 landslide of size that is similar to the Chicago Creek  25 landslide?  26 A   No.  I thought that the Chicago Creek was the -- I'm  27 afraid that the conversations I had with him were so  28 long ago that I really can't recall accurately what I  29 was told and what I wasn't told.  30 Q   Did anyone mention to you that the Carnaby Debris Fan  31 was being investigated to determine whether it could  32 be dated for the mountain goat adaawk?  33 A   I knew that he was looking for a large significant  34 collapse of Stekyooden.  35 Q   And you know that the carbon dates that he got  36 included dates of 250 before the present from his  37 carbon dating; did you know that?  38 A  Well, even from reading this, I don't know that.  39 Q   No, it's not in there.  4 0 A   Oh.  41 Q   He does the carbon dating later.  42 A   Oh, okay.  No.  43 Q   All right.  But 250 years ago wouldn't fit, would it,  44 because that would -- the mountain goat adaawk comes  45 before Mediik, doesn't it?  46 A   That's correct.  47 Q   All right. 17275  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 A   But I don't know what you're referring to when you say  2 250 years ago.  I don't know what this Carnaby Debris  3 Fan is.  I mean --  4 Q   Well, we've heard evidence from Dr. Gottesfeld that he  5 did obtain carbon dates from the Debris Fan, including  6 a date of 250 years BP, from a sample that he took  7 from the fan?  8 A  Well, with my limited understanding of what a debris  9 fan is, I thought it was something that was ongoing,  10 small debris as opposed to great big chunks of rock.  11 Q   Yeah.  It's described by Dr. Gottesfeld in his report  12 at Exhibit 785 page 8 as a massive debris flow.  The  13 slide deposit is of uniform lethology and appears to  14 have resulted from a single massive event.  I take it  15 you didn't know that?  16 A   No.  17 Q   No.  You know that the Wet'suwet'en speak an  18 Athabaskan language?  19 A   I know that that's what the linguists classify it as,  20 yes.  21 Q   And did you know that Dr. Kari has given evidence on  22 behalf of the plaintiffs of the time depth of the  23 Athabaskan languages?  24 A   I know -- I know that, yes.  25 Q   And you know that the evidence that Dr. Kari gave  26 about the time depth of the Athabaskan language, which  27 he describes as the divergence from proto-Athabaskan  28 to be about 2500 years; you knew that, or you know  2 9 that now?  30 A   I just heard it from you, yes.  31 Q   All right.  You didn't know that before now?  32 A   I know that there -- one of the areas, as I said when  33 you were asking me before, that I looked into in terms  34 of dating was linguistics, but the subtleties of many  35 migrations over time simply can't be reflected by the  36 linguistic theory.  37 Q   Do you mean the linguistic theory is inconsistent with  38 your theory?  39 A   I wouldn't say it was inconsistent, no.  It simply  40 wasn't a way to help me dovetail dates with the  41 chronology.  42 Q   Well, did you suggest in your evidence that the time  43 period of Temlaxam is the same time period of Dizkle?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And based on that, you would have the ancestors of the  46 Wet'suwet'en in the Bulkley Valley on your assessment  47 of the adaawk prior to the disbursal at Temlaxam, 17276  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 which you put at about 3500 years BP; is that correct?  2 A   Yes.  There are other theories of the ancestral  3 languages of languages like the Wet'suwet'en, and they  4 go back as far as deglaciation.  It is not a unified  5 opinion within the field, and those people dealing  6 with the Na-dene people have taken -- in fact, there  7 are people who say that they migrated out of the  8 northern area after deglaciation and spread down, and  9 those are the ancestors, in their opinion, of the  10 Athabaskan languages.  11 Q   But did you know that some linguists, including  12 linguists who have given evidence on behalf of the  13 plaintiffs in this case, theorize that early  14 Athabaskans did not spill out into the Mackenzie  15 region initially but moved southward from northern  16 British Columbia into the Yukon -- into the Tahltan,  17 Tsesaut and Carrier territory; you were aware of that?  18 A   I'm familiar with the fact that that theory exists,  19 yes.  20 Q   And you're also aware that evidence has been given of  21 this case by an expert called by the plaintiffs that  22 the proto-Athabaskan homeland is somewhere in the  23 Alaska-Yukon, very northern British Columbia area.  24 Were you aware of that?  25 A  Well, that's not inconsistent with other theories.  26 It's the time depth that varies.  27 Q   You also know that the linguistic evidence that's been  28 given at this trial by Dr. Kari is that people  29 migrated from the proto-Athabaskan homeland to where  30 they eventually ended up; you knew that?  31 A   No.  I don't know that.  I'm not familiar with Dr.  32 Kari's evidence.  33 Q   Now, were you aware that from the linguistic evidence  34 that the Tsimshian languages of Gitksan, Nishga, coast  35 Tsimshian and southern Tsimshian derived from a  36 proto-Tsimshianic language; did you know that?  37 A   I know that there once again are theories about the  38 Tsimshian language.  I'm familiar with other ones as  39 well.  40 Q   And you know that the evidence that's been presented  41 at this trial by the plaintiffs indicates the  42 proto-Tsimshian homeland is on the coast; in fact, in  43 the Skeena estuary and south?  44 A   No.  I don't know that.  45 MR. WILLMS:  Did you know that the time divergence for  46 proto-Tsimshian has been estimated by evidence given  47 by the plaintiffs' experts in this case as somewhere 17277  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 between 500 and 2,000 years; did you know that?  2 THE COURT:  You're saying divergence from --  3 MR. WILLMS:  Proto-Tsimshian to Gitksan.  Proto-Tsimshian to the  4 four languages that Dr. Kari and Dr. Rigsby referred  5 to in their report.  6 THE COURT:  Yes.  7 MR. WILLMS:  It's in the report, Mr. Grant.  8 MR. GRANT:  If my friend is referring to when he's saying  9 something about -- first of all, I have two points.  10 One is my friend's now saying evidence that's  11 presented without any reference even to the person  12 that's representing it until I stand up, and then he  13 says it's Dr. Kari.  I would like him to put what  14 witness he's referring to for my ability, if not the  15 witness, courtesy to the witness.  Secondly, I wonder,  16 my friend has this evidence, and is he asking this --  17 he's asking this witness what she knows and what is  18 the relevance of that.  Are we in a situation of now  19 argument or of the witness commenting on another  20 witness' evidence which you have ruled on in the past,  21 and I know given some broader ambit, my lord, in the  22 case of experts, but I mean he's not even going that  23 far.  He's just saying "Did you know this and did you  24 know that".  If it's in evidence, it's a question of  2 5 argument.  26 THE COURT:  Well, there are a number of streams involved in  27 this.  Firstly, there is a theory that says that  28 counsel has to put to an important witness the burden  29 of his case, and I'm not sure he has to put to him the  30 burden of the case that calls the witness, but it  31 seems to me it is fair to put to the witness that  32 there is another theory that might be used in argument  33 to give her a chance to answer it.  I'm not sure that  34 it's necessary to give the name of the witness.  If  35 counsel asks for it, counsel may decide to do so.  36 Seems to me that giving the name of the witness is  37 useful in some circumstances, but in other  38 circumstances it may be said to be terrorizing the  39 witness, that it shouldn't be done.  So I'm not sure  40 there's a hard-and-fast rule that can be applied.  I  41 think that if you -- if counsel puts the question the  42 way that there is evidence in this case, that such and  43 such, then that being challenged, but I don't think  44 it's a question of being fair to the witness.  It may  45 be unfair to the witness to give the name, because if  46 it's a person with weight and authority, the witness  47 may be, as the cases say, terrorized into agreement. 1727?  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  THE COURT  MR.  THE  GRANT  COURT  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  On the other hand, if counsel challenges what the --  what the manner in which the evidence has been  characterized, then I think it's then appropriate for  cross-examining counsel to be asked to state what is  the source of that description that he's given in the  evidence.  That second point was the one I was equally  concerned about, because --  You don't agree with his description of what the  evidence is.  Well, in some cases I may and some cases I won't.  I  am in a situation, like your lordship, I confess that  I have not committed to memory all of the opinions of  all of the experts given since last November.  And  that's where I'm -- I at least want an opportunity to  consider that.  I don't think the cross-examination can be stood  down while counsel go and check their notes.  I don't ask that.  If my friend --  But if counsel asks for the name of the witness,  generally speaking I would permit it to be given, but  I don't think that that is the rule that that is to  always be the case.  Here we've been talking about Dr.  Kari, haven't we?  WILLMS:  Yes, my lord.  The only linguist that the  plaintiffs have called.  COURT:  Well, Dr. Rigsby's evidence is in.  WILLMS:  Yes.  GRANT:  That's right, there's two linguists.  And even if my  friend is -- he says it's linguistic evidence, that's  fine as well, but sometimes he's been jumping around.  COURT:  All right.  Go ahead, Mr. Willms.  WILLMS:  Q   Now, you said earlier in your evidence, and correct me  if I'm wrong, that from about 7000 BP to date that  most -- that the people were in the area, there were  no significant migrations into the area.  Am I stating  your evidence correctly?  I thought that the date that  you said --  In the broad area indicated on the map, yes.  Yes.  But you will -- and just backing up, let me  clarify the proto-Athabaskan again.  Did you say that  you had heard of the linguistic theory of the  proto-Athabaskan migrations, or that you didn't -- you  hadn't heard about it?  Maybe you would like to define proto-Athabaskan in  this particular case, because it's not always readily  A  Q  A 17279  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 apparent what people mean by that term.  2 Q   All right.  What I mean when I say proto-Athabaskan is  3 I mean the language from which the Athabaskan language  4 family derived?  5 A  Well, as I told you, there's another term for that  6 called the Na-dene, and there are other theories about  7 the origins of the Athabaskan languages.  And when I  8 investigated linguistic theory as a possible aid in  9 timing things, I saw that there were a number of  10 theories, and inasmuch as I'm not a linguist, I was  11 unable to decide for myself between them, and I  12 decided not to use any linguistic information in  13 conjunction with my work, and that was very early on.  14 And I didn't -- I did a fair amount of reading on the  15 subject, and I just came to the conclusion that there  16 was not a very fixed -- very agreed upon chronology  17 for either Athabaskan language or for Tsimshian.  18 Tsimshian is one of the most questionable languages  19 there is.  It has Penuche(Phonetics).  It's a  20 Penuchean which has routes below Vancouver in  21 Washington State and Oregon, it has influences from  22 the Kwak used on the south coast, there are loan words  23 from as far south as Rivers' Inlet, and it has a  24 connection with the Athabaskan languages.  It's an  25 extremely complex language, and I think to say  26 proto-Tsimshian start at this place in this time is to  27 simplify the issue, and inasmuch as I was not doing  28 linguistics, I did not address the complexities of  29 trying to time date language where the authorities in  30 the field were really not in agreement at all.  And  31 the closest theory in terms of what might have  32 assisted me in corroborating this was the one that I  33 referred to where -- and I can bring you the article,  34 if you would like to look at it, where the Na-dene  35 originate amongst the Ayach prior to deglaciation, and  36 they spread south after that, and that's an acceptable  37 linguistic theory that was published in a periodical,  38 and I felt that there was such disagreement on the  39 issue that it really wasn't a stable source for me for  40 corroboration.  41 Q   All right.  Is there any way that you can fit a theory  42 of migration 2,500 years ago into this area, into your  43 chronology?  44 A   Of linguistic theory?  45 Q   No, no.  Yeah, but the linguistic theory, is there any  46 way that you can fit a migration of peoples 2,500  47 years ago or later from outside the map area into the 17280  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 map area into your chronology; can you fit it in?  2 A  When I did the chronology, I looked at all of the  3 accounts, and there are no other accounts, and all of  4 the contemporary villages and all of their ancestors  5 are referred to in the statements of origins files,  6 and from that I concluded that after that point there  7 were no newcomers, because that's what they said.  8 Q   Can you fit an early migration south through the  9 Cordillera region and occupation of the Babine Lake,  10 Bulkley River areas by people's ancestral to the  11 present Wet'suwet'en for at least 1,500 to 2,000  12 years; can you fit that into your chronology?  13 A   I don't deal with the Wet'suwet'en area in my work.  14 All I deal with is the Wet'suwet'en who are related to  15 the Gitksan and those arrows coming outside of the  16 area that I'm dealing with there.  I know that there  17 are movements of people south of Hazelton that are of  18 a different people.  19 MR. WILLMS:  Can you fit a movement of Tsimshian speaking people  20 from the coast between 500 and 2,000 years ago into  21 the Gitksan area, can you fit that into your  22 chronology?  23 THE COURT:  What were the years, 500?  24 MR. WILLMS:  25 Q   Between 500 BP to 2000 BP?  26 A  A movement of Tsimshian speaking people into the  27 Gitksan territories?  28 Q   Yes.  A migration of people from the coast, the Skeena  29 estuary into the Gitksan area ranging at a starting  30 time of at the latest to -- at the earliest 2,000  31 years ago, at the latest 500.  Can you fit that into  32 your chronology?  33 A  Well, if you go back another 500 to 1,000 years, yes,  34 because there's that -- that's exactly what happens in  35 terms of the people.  The Tlingit, who become  36 Tsimshian, and then that influence that I talk about  37 up to the Gitksan, but it would be a slow influence  38 over time.  It wouldn't be a group of people suddenly  39 arriving and being incorporated into the culture.  4 0 Q   And can you fit a movement of people --  41 A   Could I just go back to that, please.  As far as I  42 understand, and I'm -- I've lived and heard both  43 languages, there's not a great deal of difference.  I  44 don't understand oral Gitksan that well, and I  45 understand oral Tsimshian almost as well as I  46 understand oral Gitksan.  The nature of the subtleties  47 other to analyse that as an influence on the Gitksan 17281  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 that long ago, I really don't think that that's a  2 very -- a very firm -- there's not enough difference  3 between the two languages for one to say that one  4 migrated in amongst the others.  5 Q   Now, I will just put a proposition to you, and I want  6 you to tell me if you can fit that into your  7 chronology.  And my lord, I am reading from Exhibit  8 883, tab 2, page 6:  9  10 "The fur trade seems to have spurred the Gitksan  11 occupation of the middle Nass and especially the  12 upper Nass and upper Skeena territories."  13  14 Can you fit that into your chronology?  15 A   Can I see that, please.  By the middle Nass, what are  16 you referring to, what is this person referring to?  17 Q   Well, let's make it simple.  Let's say anywhere on the  18 Nass, and anywhere on the Skeena, can you fit -- let  19 me -- I'll just rephrase it:  20  21 "The fur trade seems to have spurred the Gitksan  22 occupation of parts of the Nass and parts  23 of the Skeena territories."  24  25 So I haven't got upper or lower or middle, just parts.  26 Can you fit that into your chronology based on the  27 oral histories?  28 A   Not unless you're talking about the very upper reaches  29 of the Skeena River.  30 MR. WILLMS:  Now, my lord, I'm going to turn to a new document  31 now and start working through a different area so --  32 THE COURT:  Well, what do you think we're facing if we adjourn  33 now, and this when we should adjourn or should we  34 carry on in the hope that perhaps saving an extra day.  35 I'm in counsels' hands, I don't care.  36 MR. WILLMS:  I think I can say this, and I spoke to my friends  37 earlier, that if we sat another hour today I don't  38 think we would finish tomorrow.  And of course, we  39 have the other difficulty of Mr. Grant getting that  40 material before your lordship, so it does not look  41 like even if we sat another hour we would finish  42 tomorrow.  43 THE COURT:  Even if we sat very late tomorrow, if that's  44 convenient?  45 MR. WILLMS:  Well —  46 THE COURT:  You see, I would be happy to stay another hour if  47 that would do it and another hour tomorrow night.  I 17282  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 don't want to press counsel unnecessarily or unduly.  2 MR. WILLMS:  Well, my lord, I would anticipate at the rate I'm  3 going that I will be into the afternoon tomorrow, and  4 I know that my friend, Mr. Macaulay, suggested that he  5 would be about half a day.  6 THE COURT:  Yes.  7 MR. WILLMS:  And perhaps Mr. Grant has no re-examination, but  8 I'm sure he doesn't know that yet.  9 MR. GRANT:  As I suggested, my lord, I'm certainly amenable, and  10 that we start earlier tomorrow.  11 THE COURT  12 MR. GRANT  13 THE COURT  Well, it's just --  Sometimes there's optimism.  There's so much trouble in the building, it's just  14 awful.  I can't start before 9:30.  15 MR. GRANT:  That's fine, my lord.  16 THE COURT:  There's serious difficulties downstairs and it's  17 getting worse every day, and I just can't start before  18 9:30.  But I don't mind how late we stay and I don't  19 mind staying later now, but I'm in counsels' hands.  20 MR. GRANT:  Well, as with most witnesses, this witness is  21 amenable to doing what counsel end up deciding, and if  22 that will assist us to complete tomorrow, I tend to go  23 along with your lordship's view, but of course I don't  24 have control of that, both my friends do, and if they  25 think that makes no difference --  26 THE COURT:  If you say it won't make any difference, Mr. Willms,  27 we might as well adjourn.  28 MR. MACAULAY:  I don't think Mr. Willms should take all the  29 blame for that.  I say it won't make any difference.  30 THE COURT:  I think we'll adjourn until 9:30 tomorrow morning.  31 Thank you.  32  33 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  34  35 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  36 a true and accurate transcript of the  37 proceedings herein transcribed to the  38 best of my skill and ability  39  40  41  42  43 Graham D. Parker  44 Official Reporter  45 United Reporting Service Ltd.  46  47


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