"d6f9addc-8f5a-4a64-8478-3de03c7efe0d"@en . "CONTENTdm"@en . "Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts"@en . "British Columbia. Supreme Court"@en . "2013"@en . "1989-06-08"@en . "In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, between: Delgamuukw, also known as Albert Tait, suing on his own behalf and on behalf of all the members of the House of Delgamuukw, and others, plaintiffs, and Her Majesty the Queen in right of the Province of British Columbia and the Attorney General of Canada, defendants: proceedings at trial."@en . ""@en . "https://open.library.ubc.ca/collections/delgamuukw/items/1.0019803/source.json"@en . "application/pdf"@en . " 17180 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 Vancouver, B.C. 2 June 8, 198 9 3 4 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) 5 6 THE REGISTRAR: In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, this 7 8th day of June, 1989. In the matter of Delgamuukw 8 versus Her Majesty the Queen at bar, my lord. 9 10 SUSAN MARSDEN, resumed: 11 12 THE REGISTRAR: May I remind you you are still under oath. 13 A Yes. 14 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. Would you state your name for the 15 record, please? 16 A Susan Marsden. 17 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 18 MR. GRANT: Could you put Volume 1 of Ms. Marsden's expert 19 report to her in front of her, please. And at page -- 20 I believe I left at page 188. I am at page 190 of 21 Volume 1, my lord. 22 THE COURT: Yes. 2 3 MR. GRANT: Or 18 9. 24 25 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT (Cont'd): 26 Q Now, this section of your report you entitle -- you 27 are at page 189, Ms. Marsden? 28 A Yes. 29 Q You entitle it \"The Population Shifts: Migration 30 Within the Northcoast Area\", and I take it from your 31 evidence yesterday you distinguished this period from 32 what you describe earlier as it's a migration within 33 the Northcoast area itself as opposed to a migration 34 from outside the area? 35 A Yes. 36 Q And you -- just to introduce the era, you state: 37 38 \"The Dispersal from Laxwiiyip. 39 40 It was during the Temlaxham period, probably near 41 its close, that the northern Gitksan area received 42 an influx of migration from Laxwiiyip. Some of 43 these people, relatives from long ago, stayed 44 among the northern Gitksan; some stayed near 45 Temlaxham, some below Gitwingax, but many of them 46 continued on, travelling great distances in their 47 search for unclaimed land.\" 17181 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 A 6 Q 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 A 22 Q 23 24 25 A 26 Q 27 28 29 A 30 Q 31 32 A 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 THE COURT 42 A 43 THE COURT 44 A 45 MR. GRANT 46 Q 47 That is a synopsis of your conclusions out of your reading of the oral histories and the other material, is that right? Yes. And then you state: \"Others of the Laxwiiyip travelled down the Stikine, under a glacier, to establish themselves near the mouths of the Stikine and Nass rivers. In both of these places, they were met by Tlingit groups from the north coast also moving south. From there the Laxwiiyip moved up the Nass river to join Eagle and Wolf groups already established on the middle Nass. The Tlingit moved down the coast and drove the Tsimshian established there off the coast and up the Skeena River.\" And this summation is reflected in the adaawk and oral histories of the region, is that right? Yes. Now, I'd like to refer you to Exhibit 1042, if Madam Registrar can put that in front of you. And specifically to tab 21. Do you have that tab? Uh-huh. Is this a sketch map which reflects the description you give in this chapter on the dispersal and the northern dispersal, as well the Temlaxham dispersal? Yes. Okay. Can you, utilizing this sketch, explain for the court what you found? Well, if you look in the top right-hand side you see that there are a number of originating groups in the Laxwiiyip area, and they consistently have fights over fishing sites and as a result the losing groups leave. There are groups that come under the glacier down the Stikine, heading to the left of the map, down the -- down to the mouth of the Stikine. Some of them indicate that they stay at the mouth of the Stikine at Naa'a for a period of time. : At where? Naa'a, N-a-a-'-a That's near Wrangell. : Near where? Wrangell, W-r-a-n-g-e-1-1. Is that where that star is that you have on the island? 17182 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 A Yes. Yes. That's not in the exact location. 2 Q Yes. 3 A There is -- once again, there is altercations over 4 food sources, and they travel further south and stop 5 at the southern most tip of the Tlingit territory in 6 the Tongasslaxse'el area, 7 T-o-n-g-a-s-s-l-a-x-s-e-'-e-1. And one out of those 8 groups is -- actually the last one to arrive is pushed 9 back inland to Portland Canal. That's one group. 10 There is a related group of Wolves that also travel 11 that route. And then if you look to the top left side 12 of the map, you have the Eagles. Among the Tlingit 13 they have Ravens and Wolf Eagles. The southern 14 Tlingit have Wolves and the northern Tlingit have 15 Eagles. But they just have two clans wherever they 16 are. And the people coming from the far north are 17 Eagles and it doesn't -- it doesn't explain explicitly 18 where they come from, but the reference is at Taku, 19 which is somewhere in the northern area on the coast. 20 And they -- they join this migration that's come from 21 Laxwiiyip and are involved in the altercations that 22 take place as people are trying to find a place to 23 establish themselves. When they reach the southern 24 part of the Tlingit territory just above the mouth of 25 the Nass, they engage in hostilities with the Frog 26 Clan there, and there is a long period of strife on 27 the coast during -- after these migrations have come 28 down and the ultimate result is that the Frog Clan are 29 dispersed from their home there. And they spread out 30 through the Tsimshian territory and join Frog Houses 31 among the Tsimshian. And eventually one -- one group 32 of them actually reach into Gitksan territory, but 33 that's over time. If you look at the other -- the 34 other pattern of movement down the Skeena River, this 35 is a smaller group. There is a small group of Wolves 36 that come down to the headwaters -- well, down the 37 Skeena and over to the headwaters of the Nass as well. 38 Q Could I \u00E2\u0080\u0094 3 9 A And \u00E2\u0080\u0094 40 Q Could I just clarify, you are referring here now to 41 the dark arrows that start where it says Wolf and Wolf 42 and Frog at the top as well? 43 A Yes. But I'm just speaking about the Wolves at this 4 4 time. 45 Q Okay. Go ahead. 46 A And they come down and those are -- that's the group 47 that forms -- that joins the Temlaxham people and 17183 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 Niislaganoos and Spokx. Now, that line is 2 incorporated in the overall line. The rest of the 3 movement is the Wolf and the Frog Clan and they are 4 the last wave of this migration and they come down. 5 They are fighting, but they migrate and end up 6 regrouping wherever they settle. And they come down, 7 all the way down the Skeena and split off. Some of 8 them go off to the Kitsumkalum valley and establish 9 themselves in the middle Nass, and some of them 10 continue on, spend some time at Metlakatla where there 11 is still insufficient food, and then continue back up 12 and join their relatives on the middle Nass there. 13 Q Okay. 14 A And I think that's \u00E2\u0080\u0094. 15 Q Okay. And you'll come -- I'll refer you back to the 16 other part where you have that crossed arrows, that 17 refers to the Temlaxham dispersal? 18 A That's right. 19 Q Okay. In order do determine this migration, did you 20 look at the adaawk of a particular clan or certain 21 clans in particular? 22 A Well, there are a large number of adaawk on these and 23 they are all inter -- intertwined. They are in the 24 Eagle Clan adaawk and the Wolf Clan adaawk and in the 25 Frog. And there is also an extensive body of 26 information in the Duff files and statements about 27 they are consistently called Gwenhuut, 28 G-w-e-n-h-u-u-t. Except for the Frogs. They are 2 9 never called that. And so when you have them joining 30 village groups among the Tsimshian, they always refer 31 to their origins as being the Gwenhuut Eagles or to a 32 lesser extent the Gwenhuut Goats. 33 Q Now, you state at top of page 190 of your report, if I 34 can just return you there for a moment, that: 35 36 \"Although it might appear that people were trying 37 to migrate to the coast, it was not access to the 38 coast that was sought but rather a stable food 39 supply, especially salmon. Those that could 40 return did so, in many cases consciously moving 41 upriver towards their original homeland, at the 42 same time looking for reliable, productive, 43 non-contentious fishing sites of their own, in 44 areas where they could still hunt and trap as they 45 always had.\" 46 47 Is that conclusion of yours reflected -- a reflection 17184 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 A 3 4 Q 5 A 6 7 8 9 Q 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 Q 27 28 29 30 31 32 THE COURT 33 MR. GRANT 34 THE COURT 35 MR. GRANT 36 THE COURT 37 A 38 39 MR. GRANT 40 Q 41 A 42 43 44 45 46 47 of what you found in these oral histories? Yes. They state quite clearly. For example, on page 191 -- Yes. -- this is the one of the Wolf and Frog paired migration. This is a Wolf -- the Wolf group of that. They say that \"they stayed here,\" this is in the Kisgagas area. Just a moment. You are at page 191 of your report? In the quote, in the middle of the quote. Yes. \"They stayed here for a time and having no exclusive territory for their own large band, they followed the Skeena downstream.\" And they go on to explain how they build a raft and cast themselves adrift. And they end up at Lome Creek, which is just above the Kitselas area there and then they head and they are the ones that go overland and head up to the middle Nass and that's where they are established now. This house group Kyexw, K-y-e-x-w, is among the people of Aiyansh today. A-i-y-a-n-s-h. Now, Ms. Marsden, could you refer again to the binder with the map in it at tab 25. This is -- I think you have already referred to this. This is the \"Overview of North Coast Prehistory Project\" by MacDonald and Inglis. Now, does this writing, did it -- was it of any assistance when you were analysing this material? I am sorry, where are you going now, Mr. Grant? I am sorry, tab 25. Of the same book? Of the same binder, yes. All right. Thank you. This is his earlier, and I think he may -- he has adjusted the dates slightly since then. This is MacDonald? MacDonald, yes. But basically -- well, as you will see in a minute, he says basically the same thing at a later date. On page 45 of the article he's describing the second period that he's -- he's designated in his archeological work in Prince Rupert harbour and he states that: 17185 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 ** \"About 1500 B.C. -- \" 2 3 This is halfway down the page: 4 5 \"-- there is a rapid midden build-up.\" 6 7 He's referring there to the shells, the shells -- 8 people cast shells outside of their houses and it's 9 a -- it's an easy way to identify an archeological 10 site on the coast. So the: 11 12 \"rapid midden build-up, reflecting larger village 13 occupations and larger house construction and 14 probably a substantial population increase.\" 15 16 And then he goes on at the beginning of the next 17 paragraph: 18 19 \"A large sample of burials -- \" 20 21 Sorry. Skips a paragraph and then the last paragraph: 22 23 \"A large sample of burials dates to the last 24 millenium of this period. Burial is generally in 25 a tightly flexed position either in a shallow pit 26 or a rectangular box.\" 27 28 Then he goes on to talk about grave goods. And then: 29 30 \"Probable ritual use of skeletons\" 31 32 In Cybulski, 33 34 \"and physical injuries that may be attributed to 35 intergroup hostility are encountered.\" 36 37 Q Where is he talking about those finds? I think if you 38 look at page 42 it may be of assistance. 39 A If you look at page 44 you see the -- it's really 40 hard -- if you look up at the blowup -- the blown up 41 one, you can see the name of the sites and then his 42 range of dates for the periods. Those are all his 43 carbon dates. And then if you look at the map on page 44 42 you can correlate the sites that he got radiocarbon 45 dates for with the map. 46 Q This is in the -- at the mouth or this is at Prince 47 Rupert harbour and Digby Island, in that area around 17186 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 Prince Rupert, is that right? 2 A That's right. There is a major site right under what 3 is now the big port in Prince Rupert. It's -- the 4 site is totally destroyed now and that was an 5 important source of a lot of this information. And 6 there are -- there is continuing work on Digby Island, 7 but there are a number of sites on Digby Island, one 8 of which the boardwalk site was a major source of 9 his -- his conclusions. In fact, when I heard him 10 speak, he said that he found copper attached to wood 11 2000 years BP, which he estimated 2000 years BP and 12 that indicated to him that that was the armour of the 13 warrior. 14 THE COURT: What does he mean at page -- is it 45 from which you 15 read? 16 MR. GRANT: Page 45. 17 THE COURT: Yes. 45 where he says on the first end of the first 18 paragraph under \"Period II,\" he says: 19 20 \"The subsurface bivalves of the intertidal 21 zone.\" 22 23 I understand all that. He says \"are heavily 24 exploited.\" What does that mean? 25 A He means that they -- there are indications in the 26 archeology that they switch -- they place more 27 emphasis on shellfish, not shellfish but clams and 28 mussels and so on in their diet. 29 THE COURT: Is that what exploited means? 30 A Yes. 31 THE COURT: I would have thought the fact that they were there 32 at all showed that they had been used. I am wondering 33 if there is some other meaning that I don't 34 comprehend. 35 A Oh, no. The only other use for shells that I have 36 ever heard of was to warn them of the invaders coming 37 along, because they make such a racket when they walk 38 on them. No, I -- I don't -- I don't know why 39 archeologists use such big words for some fairly 40 simple things, but I understand that is being eaten. 41 THE COURT: All right. My breakfast this morning was heavily 42 exploited. 4 3 MR. GRANT: 44 Q I would like to refer you possibly -- my lord, if I 45 can just hand this to you. This is an excerpt from 46 the Historical Atlas of Canada, and it should be 47 inserted in as a tab 27 in that first document book. 17187 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 Now, have you reviewed this particular -- this is 2 plate 6 of the historical atlas, and of course the 3 original, my lord, is coloured and very nice and 4 larger, but the photo reproduction is what we can do. 5 Have you referred to -- what this is, my lord, I 6 should say is, this is plate 6 -- or plate 8, I am 7 sorry, and it would go like this in the photocopy. It 8 would be one page. And of course the second page is 9 where it says plate 8 is eastern Canada which is not 10 relevant for our purposes. As well as the footnotes 11 around plate 8 or the notes at the end and the notes 12 of plate 6, because plate 8 says \"see notes of plate 13 6.\" So -- and it's an excerpt from the Historical 14 Atlas. Now, with reference to this, this is an 15 archeological map of cultural sequences from 1000 BC 16 to 500 AD. Is there anything on this that is of 17 significance to what you found? 18 MS. WILLMS: My lord, perhaps the witness could say whether she 19 relied on this in her report or is this some new-found 20 knowledge to her? 21 MR. GRANT: That's fair enough. 22 Q Maybe you can answer my question first and then 23 explain when you came across it? 24 A Well, in the beginning of the second paragraph they 25 reiterate what George MacDonald said about the -- 26 27 \"On the West Coast, villages with large shell 28 middens and plank houses were present 2000 years 29 ago. There is also evidence for a ranked society 30 concerned with the acquisition of wealth and 31 engaging in warfare.\" 32 33 And then they go to to talk about the interior. 34 Q Okay. 35 A At the top of the first paragraph it says: 36 37 \"During the period from 1000 BC to AD 500 the 38 diffusion of ideas rather than the migration of 39 people appears to have been the major mechanism 40 for cultural change.\" 41 42 And the arrow along the coast there, the Asiatic 43 warfare pattern, 1000 BC is down the coast from the 44 northern Tlingit right down to the -- well, if you 45 follow the area to its tip right to the tip of 46 Vancouver Island. And that's -- that's a reiteration 47 of the statement of MacDonald that warfare is apparent 171? S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 Q 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 9 10 11 12 13 A 14 THE COURT 15 16 A 17 THE COURT 18 19 A 20 21 22 ** 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 THE COURT 31 32 A 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 THE COURT 42 43 MR. GRANT 44 THE COURT 45 MR. GRANT 46 47 in the skeletons examined by Cybulski during -- from the period to in their archeological work. Okay. Now -- Excuse me. Sorry, go ahead. Could I have some water? And when did you -- when did you first refer to -- if I recall correctly, my lord, this publication didn't come out until after the delivery of the report to my friend. So the answer is self-explanatory, but I will ask the witness. When did you first have an opportunity to review this plate of Historical Atlas? In the last few months. : Is that arrow running along the Northcoast, it says Asiatic war -- Warfare pattern. : Warfare pattern, by Asiatic? Well, that's why I It says: What do you understand it to mean tied it in with the paragraph here. \"... the diffusion of ideas rather than the migration of people appears to have been the major mechanism for cultural change.\" Way -- the way -- are you asking me, the way I understand George MacDonald, what he's saying there -- or I am sorry, what the atlas, the people making the atlas say -- I am just wondering what you understand the meaning of the word Asiatic warfare. Well, I think that they have made connections to the -- to the Asian Continent through these stone -- stone clubs. But the influence is at the northern edge of the Tlingit. If you had a map of the whole span of the north, you can see it's just a group of islands going from the Alute over to Asia. So I understand him to mean that there are influences on the northern peoples that come down during this time period. And what is that curved arrow? Does that say Proto-Tahltan. No. Proto-Taltheilei, T-a-1-t-h-e-i-l-e-i. What does that mean? I believe that in the chart or in the legend on plate 8 it refers to Taltheilei as 500 BC to AD 500. That seems to be a movement in towards the Arctic, my 17189 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 THE THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. MR. lord, if you can see the -- after Proto-Taltheilei it goes to Taltheilei. COURT: Yes. COURT: All right. GRANT: And I think, my understanding is that that's further inland from the area that's the subject -- COURT: I think I will not worry about it. GRANT: I am certainly not tendering the map to talk about Proto-Taltheilei. COURT: All right. GRANT: My lord, I would ask for exhibit -- I would ask that this could be inserted at tab 27 of Exhibit 1042, and be marked as Exhibit 1042-27 and that would be the -- described as the Historical Atlas of Canada, Volume 1, plate 8, together with the notes relating to plate 8. And I would ask that -- Well, it can only be admitted for the purpose of being something that the witness has adopted as supporting material for her opinion. It can't be admitted to prove the truth of that statement. GRANT: No. That's right. COURT: All right. GRANT: And the -- I believe if I recall rightly, my lord, that the -- that those parameters would have been worked out some months ago with other experts. COURT: Yes. GRANT: And I understand those parameters. (EXHIBIT 1042-27: Historical Atlas of Canada, Volume 1, plate 8 together with notes relating to plate 8) THE COURT MR. THE MR. GRANT: And I would ask that -- just a second. Exhibit or tab 25 be marked as Exhibit 1042-25 and it would be described as the MacDonald and Inglis article, An Overview of North Coast Prehistory Project (1966-1980) THE COURT: Yes. (EXHIBIT 1042-25: MacDonald and Inglis article, An Overview of North Coast Prehistory Project (1966-1980)) MR. GRANT: And I would ask that tab 21 be marked as Exhibit 1042-21. MS. WILLMS: I object, my lord. It was just produced. You can see on it it's June 4, 1989. It's clearly an opinion and I object. THE COURT: 21? 17190 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 14 THE COURT 15 MR. GRANT 16 THE COURT 17 MR. GRANT 1 MS. WILLMS: Yes. 21, the copyright is in the lower left-hand 2 corner, June 4, 1989. 3 MR. GRANT: Yes. It was prepared by the witness on my 4 instructions to -- based on the lengthy material in 5 the report as a depiction of what is described in the 6 report that my friends have had for two years and I 7 would ask it to go in on that basis. 8 THE COURT: Well, it can go in for the limited purpose of 9 explaining the evidence she gave assisting, I 10 understand, the evidence she gave this morning, but 11 not beyond that I should think. 12 MR. GRANT: And assisting the evidence relating to that chapter 13 of the report. Yes. I think that -- Yes. That limited purpose only. Yes. 18 19 (EXHIBIT 1042-21: Sketch Map of Ms. Marsden re 20 Northern Dispersal and Temlaxham Dispersal dated June 21 4, 1989) 22 23 MR. GRANT: And that tab 21 for Madam Registrar could be 24 described as the sketch map of Ms. Marsden Re Northern 25 Dispersal and Temlaxham dispersal dated June 4, 1989. 26 Q Now, in this chapter that we're dealing with you make 27 reference to Spokx. And I wonder if you can refer 28 to -- I will refer you to tab 21. I am sorry, tab 19 29 Ms. Marsden, of your report and that's the tab you've 30 already observed. My lord, it's the one you see the 31 versions of the microfilm, the typescript and Ms. 32 Marden's retyping of the typescript. Spelling change 33 names. 34 THE COURT: This is 19? 35 MR. GRANT: Yes. 36 THE COURT: Yes. We looked at this before. 37 MR. GRANT: Yes. We have looked at that in terms of the type of 38 material that Ms. Marsden had to work with. Now I am 39 asking her about the content. 40 Q Was there information in that that was of assistance 41 to you in terms of this -- relating the sequencing of 42 this northern dispersal, if I may call it that? 43 A Well, this is one of the sources. It takes the -- it 44 takes it into the Gitksan area and connects it with 45 the Temlaxham period with the offshoots of this 46 northern migration establishing themselves among the 47 Temlaxham and then not really establishing themselves 17191 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 for a period of time stably and then heading up the 2 Kispiox River and eventually those people contribute 3 to the founding of the Kitwancool people. 4 Q Now, if I can just -- you make specific reference in 5 this chapter of your report to effect of specific 6 quotes from certain adaawk and those are only excerpts 7 from some of the adaawk upon which you have relied for 8 your conclusion relating to this, is that right? 9 A Yes. There are a large number of adaawk on this 10 subject. 11 Q If I could refer you to page 197. It states -- you 12 state in the middle paragraph after referring to these 13 adaawk: 14 15 \"As we have seen in these ada'ox, the groups from 16 both clans stopped for periods of time in a number 17 of locations near or with their clan relatives who 18 had preceded them in earlier times. In most cases 19 there was no unclaimed territory in the area and 20 their relatives' territory could not support such 21 large numbers, so they moved on looking for their 22 own exclusive territory.\" 23 24 And that's in quotes. That exclusive territory is 25 from the adaawk? 26 A Yes. The pattern is they arrive in a community. They 27 are accepted by their clan relatives. They don't -- 28 the wars don't break out the moment they arrive, but 29 the wars break out over access to resources and so 3 0 they move on. 31 Q 32 33 \"In all migration ada'ox, villages, or village 34 areas, are named as stopping places. It is not 35 always explicitly stated that a branch of the 36 migrating group remained there as a separate 37 House, or as an amalgamated part of a House of the 38 same clan, already there. However, an examination 39 of the Barbeau-Beynon files shows a very high 40 correlation between villages named as stopping 41 places in ada'ox and villages in which a branch of 42 the migrating group was said in the files to be 43 established in the absence of any other account of 44 their establishment in these villages, and 45 sometimes with corroborating data found 46 incidentally in files or in other ada'ox, it is 47 logical to assume that wherever a village was a 17192 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 stopping place and a related group was later said 2 to be established there, that the establishment of 3 this group occurred there at the time of 4 migration.\" 5 6 And that's your conclusion with respect to that, is 7 that right? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Okay. Now, on page 199 you refer to Saniik, 10 S-a-n-i-i-k, as the final -- as the final group that 11 left Laxwiiyip. And is that as reflected in the 12 adaawk? 13 A Yes. The one that's quoted here. 14 Q And that's the one that is quoted right after that? 15 A 16 \"While at Laxwiiyip, they had a chief named 17 Saniik, and they lived alongside the Ganeda, Raven 18 and Frog, and another group of the Lax Gibuu who 19 had run away from the Ganeda and were lead by 20 Gusxaen, the Niislaganoos Wolf Group.\" 21 22 That's the one that's related to Spokx. 23 24 \"and lived apart from those on the Prairie.\" 25 26 That Prairie is a translation for Laxwiiyip. 27 28 \"The Amailx Lax Gibuu, Saniik's Group, 2 9 intermarried with the Ganeda.\" 30 31 And then I go on to -- to describe their migrations 32 and where they end up at Portland Canal. 33 Q And that's specific -- 34 A Tombstone Bay. 35 Q A specific description of what one group that you have 36 described in your overview using map 1042, not 21? 37 A That's right. 38 Q Niislaganoos, Madam Registrar -- or Madam Reporter, is 39 N-i-i-s-1-a-g-a-n-o-o-s. You then state that: 40 41 \"Saniik and his people travelled under the glacier 42 and moved south along the coast like those before 43 them, encountering hostility all along their 44 route.\" 45 46 Now, his lordship has heard evidence of adaawk 47 relating to a migration of peoples under the glacier. 17193 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 Is this the -- is this what you are referring to here? 2 A There are -- there are no other -- because all of 3 these incidents are related, they intertwine. If you 4 look at the full body of the material, you see that 5 they are interrelated. For example, here, they have 6 the Saniik group. They discuss Niislaganoos group. 7 They are all intertwined. There are no other adaawk 8 dealing with movements under the glacier besides those 9 dealing with this migration period. 10 Q Okay. Now, with respect to this, you conclude that on 11 page 200: 12 13 \"We have moved through history, from an era during 14 which widely separated branches of the original 15 northern inland peoples enjoyed large tracts of 16 land especially suitable for large mammal and 17 beaver hunting -- \" 18 19 And to pause there, are you referring there to the era 20 that's reflected on map, the large map one? 21 A Yes. 22 Q 23 \" -- to a second era in which hunting people also 24 sought a stable supply of salmon.\" 25 26 And here you are referring to this period of time that 27 you are describing in this chapter? 28 A Yes. 29 Q 30 \"Prime large territory was no longer available, so 31 those migrating along the Nass and Skeena rivers 32 could either ally or amalgamate themselves with 33 existing groups, or acquire unclaimed territory 34 that was neither exceptionally large nor 35 exceptionally desirable. The occasional small 36 river valley was still unclaimed but for the most 37 part the only land to be claimed for this era was 38 on the middle Nass River above Gitwinksihlxw. The 39 greatest influx of population along the Skeena and 40 the Nass river at this time seems to have taken 41 place in this area, at what is now sometimes 42 called the headwaters of the Nass.\" 43 44 And if you could just use map 21, Exhibit 1042-21, I 45 would like it if you could just mark approximately 46 where you were referring to there. Can you -- that 47 great influx. 17194 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 A 2 Q 3 THE COURT 4 A 5 6 7 THE COURT 8 A 9 10 11 12 13 THE COURT 14 15 16 A 17 THE COURT 18 A 19 20 THE COURT 21 A 22 MR. GRANT 23 Q 24 25 26 27 28 29 A 30 31 32 Q 33 34 35 36 37 A 38 39 40 41 42 Q 43 44 45 46 47 This area here. You can make a circle in red. : You are calling that the headwaters of the Nass? Well, Nass -- I'm not, but it's quite confusing, sometimes people do refer to this area as the headwaters of the Nass. : Where is the headwaters of the Nass on this map? Well, the real head -- the absolute ultimate headwaters are these two branches here. See where the Stikine comes down, that is the Stikine headwaters and the Skeena headwaters and the Nass headwaters all come together at Laxwiiyip. : So what your description of the headwaters of the Nass where your red circle is is really almost at tidewater? It's the middle Nass -- well -- : Is it tidewater here? Yeah. This is where it comes over from Kitwancool there and this probably about the boundary there. : You mean just north of Kitwancool? Circle is probably a little big. Okay. Maybe you could just put an \"X\" in the rough area. Marked an \"X\" in a circle in red on the exhibit for the record. Now, would that be -- just to place it, it's at -- where was that in relation to, say, Cranberry Junction? It's Cranberry Junction being north of Kitwancool, is that in that area? Yes. You come up through Kitwancool and go up Cranberry and you get to Aiyansh and the area I am referring to is in the Gitlaxdamks Aiyansh. And what you have described in that area about this territory and the change and also the very few places that appear open is what you found from the statements of origin and the adaawk in the statement I have just quoted to you? Yes. Well, in all the other incidents they either amalgamate with another House, with another -- they don't amalgamate with the House. They join their clan relatives and form a House in an already existing village. Okay. And the same page 202, if I could just refer you, you state: \"The northern inland peoples who settled in the Northcoast area arrived with a clearly defined sense of territorial ownership. They claimed -- \" 17195 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 And I am at the bottom of that page, my lord. 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 MR. GRANT: 5 Q 6 7 \"They claimed large tracts of virgin land which 8 they identified by the river, or part of the 9 river, that flowed through it. Thereafter, their 10 ownership was inalienable. It is clear from the 11 adaawk, from other origin accounts, and from 12 people's statements, that there was generally 13 acknowledged law, divine law, concerning 14 territorial ownership. People frequently say, 15 'The creator gave us this land. No one can take 16 it away.'\" 17 18 Here, when you talk about the law and the ownership, 19 you are talking about within the laws of the 20 aboriginal groups of the -- that were in the area, is 21 that right? 22 A Yes. 23 MS. WILLMS: There is a quote, \"People frequently say.\" I 24 wonder if the witness could say which people 25 frequently say that? What adaawk we can find that in? 26 A What page are we in? 27 MS. WILLMS: 203, \"The Creator gave us this land. No one can 28 take it away\" is in quotes. What adaawk can we find 29 that in, please? 30 A I am referring to people, Gitksan people there and to 31 numerous public gatherings where I have heard that 32 said and talking to people. It's very commonly said. 33 MR. GRANT: 34 Q Okay. And it's also said by some of the witnesses in 35 Commission Evidence who you've heard? 36 A Yes, that's right. As the following quote is from 37 Thomas Wright in his Commission Evidence. 38 Q Right. On page 204 -- I would just in terms of 39 editing time, my lord, I would just ask your lordship 40 to highlight for your reference the paragraph at the 41 bottom of 203 and the top of 204 of the witness just 42 to -- I will go into the next -- in that paragraph you 43 describe what you found as well with respect to the 44 adaawk and how the people acquired it. You explained 45 what you said earlier, is that right? 46 A On the second paragraph on 204? 47 Q Just referring to the first paragraph. Now I will go 17196 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 to the second paragraph on 204, and you state: \"The dispersal from Laxwiiyip was the last significant wave of migration from the north prior to contact. It marked the end of an era in which migration on such a large scale was possible.\" And why do you say that? A Well, after that the population appears to increase and the areas become more densely populated generally. Q I'd like to turn you now to page 206. THE COURT: Well, just in order to get a framework on this, what do you fix as the date of the dispersal from Laxwiiyip? A It takes place over quite a period of time. For example, some of the groups that start out in the Laxwiiyip are speaking Tlingit when they are dispersed among the Tsimshian, so there is obviously a time period, but in broad terms I put it prior to the Temlaxham dispersal. But not -- not long before the Temlaxham dispersal. MR. GRANT: Q Is there reference in the adaawk relating to Temlaxham of people from the Laxwiiyip dispersal at Temlaxham prior to the Temlaxham dispersal? A That's what I have said. Q Yes. A There are also -- well, I will come to that after. Q And then there is things you found at the time of the Temlaxham dispersal that also aided you in pre-dating it? A That's correct. Q Okay. Now, I'd like to refer you to page 206 where you commence your discussion of the dispersal from Temlaxham. \"The last phase of the Laxwiiyip dispersal might also be considered the first phase of the migration from Temlaxam. Two Houses of the Wolf Clan from Laxwiiyip had settled at Temlaxam. Of this group, some at least, arrived during this most recent era of migration, while others may have been established there from the earlier era. Some of these Wolf Houses then moved on again, before the general Temlaxam dispersal.\" And you then -- 17197 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 A 2 3 Q 4 Q 5 6 7 8 9 A 10 THE COURT 11 MR. GRANT 12 THE COURT 13 MR. GRANT 14 15 THE COURT 16 MR. GRANT 17 Q 18 19 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 24 Q 25 26 27 A 28 Q 29 30 A 31 Q 32 33 34 35 36 A 37 38 Q 39 40 41 42 A 43 44 Q 45 A 46 47 That's what I was referring to when we looked at the Spokx adaawk. Okay. If I could just have a moment, my lord. Mrs. Johnson, Antgulilbix, again gave evidence in the court about the snowfall. That's in Volume 11, around page 6 -- 667 and following. And following with respect to the adaawk of, I believe it was a boy who mocked the fish. You are familiar with that adaawk? Yes. Maidens, I think. The Mediik adaawk was maidens. Oh. That's a different one. Yes. The Mediik adaawk is what, the maidens were at Seeley Lake, is that right? : Oh, yes, you are quite right. And that occurred in relation to the dispersal from Temlaxam that occurred prior to the dispersal, is that right? That's right. Immediately prior. That's the Mediik adaawk? I thought you were talking about the boy with the fish. Okay. The boy -- okay. The boy with the fish occurred immediately prior to the dispersal from Temlaxham? Yes. And the Mediik adaawk of the maidens occurred sometime before that? That's right. During the occupation at Temlaxham. Now, you make reference in your -- in your description here of the dispersal from Temlaxam. You make reference to these adaawk, that is the adaawk of the snowfall, other versions than, of course, Mrs. Johnson's? Yes. There is -- this is -- there are a fair number of adaawk on this particular event. Okay. Now, can you refer again to the map at tab 21 and just summarize what you found regarding the Temlaxam dispersal and what you describe in this chapter? If you look at the asterisk in the general area of Temlaxham. Uh-huh. The dispersal takes place down river to Gitsegukla. One group goes over and joins the Wet'suwet'en and one goes north -- well, a number go north to found 17198 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 THE COURT 17 A 18 THE COURT 19 A 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. GRANT 26 Q 27 28 29 30 A 31 Q 32 THE COURT 33 A 34 35 MR. GRANT 36 Q 37 A 38 Q 39 A 40 41 Q 42 A 43 44 45 46 47 Kispiox, and another goes west to -- well, a number go west to found the groups that eventually become the Kitwancool. And this is also the time of the founding of Gitsegukla. Both Kispiox and Gitsegukla were not in the exact locations that they are now, but this is when they start to call themselves by those names. And then the line continues on past Gitsegukla and down to Kitselas where a number of other members of that group establish themselves in the canyon. And then the crossed broken lines indicate the later movement and spread down on the lower Skeena with a number of houses on the lower Skeena and with the creation of Gitxahla, G-i-t-x-a-h-1-a. Kitkatla, K-i-t-k-a-t-1-a, is the English word. On Porcher Island. : English word for what? For Gitxahla. : All right. And where do you say that is? It's on Porcher Island. They didn't establish themselves exactly where Kitkatla is today. And they weren't -- they only had a central location for their feasting when they first moved to the coast. They used Pit Island as well at that time. And that's south of -- south of Porcher. Could I -- could I just stop you for a moment. Could you just put a one in the area of Kitselas what you are referring to, and I note this is an approximate sketch map. Well, the canyon is actually up above. One with a circle there. : That's Kitselas, is it? That's -- yes. And here they come over to Porcher. What do you want here? Yeah. Just a two with a circle. That's not exact location. Thank you. And that's the founding of the House of Tsiibasaa. That final step. Now -- Now, it's interesting what you can see what's the time period when they reach Kitselas, the period of hostilities on the war is taking place. The Tlingit have not -- the people pushing down from the north have not amalgamated with the Tsimshian at this point. They've actually come down and pushed Tsimshian people 17199 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 living on the coast, up the Skeena River, and it's during the time that Tsiibasaa -- sorry, that the Kitselas people established themselves and that's several centuries, that the coastal people regroup and start to push these northern people back north. And when Tsiibasaa arrives on the coast, the Tlinget are still a problem. They refer to them as the Gidaganits, these people pushing down from the north. And Tsiibasaa is one of the -- is involved in one of the last battles with these invaders from the north, and pushing -- and they are pushed back to beyond Dundas Island. Q Would you mind giving us the spelling for the name of the group from the north? A G-i-d-a-g-a-n-i-t-s. So that gives you a sense of the interweaving of these two -- these two time periods. And after they are pushed back, that's when some of the -- some of them go back north and some of them simply become Tsimshian and that's when the Frog Clan head up the Skeena River and end up joining the Kitselas, the House of Koom, K-o-o-m, which eventually has an off-shoot in Wii hlengwax among the Gitksan. W-i-i h-1-e-n-g-w-a-x. Q Now, I just want to be clear where you have this star up at the junction and possibly we can mark that with a -- that's the location of Temlaxham, is that right? In this area right there? The rough location, yeah. I am just going to mark that with a T, my lord, because there is a number of stars on this sketch. Yes. A T in red for the record. Now, going out from that in a fan, and I just want to be clear, there is an arrow going west, not following the Skeena, and what are you reflecting there? I know you have already described each of these. I just want to make sure which group that is. A That is both a Wolf and a Frog group that contribute to the founding of Kitwancool. Q Okay. THE COURT: Well, are you suggesting by this map that the occupants of the Nass were original migrants from Temlaxham? You seem to have two branches, one from Kitselas north and the other one making the big circle to out towards where Prince Rupert is now and then back up what appears to be the Nass Valley. A Q THE COURT MR. GRANT Q 17200 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 A 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 THE COURT 9 A 10 THE COURT 11 A 12 13 14 15 16 MR. GRANT 17 18 THE COURT 19 MR. GRANT 20 THE COURT 21 MR. GRANT 22 Q 23 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 28 Q 29 30 31 THE COURT 32 33 MR. GRANT 34 35 36 THE COURT 37 MR. GRANT 38 39 40 THE COURT 41 42 MR. GRANT 43 THE COURT 44 Q 45 46 47 Well, those -- those really thick black lines are all the dispersal from Laxwiiyip. And -- and actually I think there is a quote in my report describing this group as they describe it among the Nisqa', but no, it's not the -- it doesn't constitute the Nisqa' people. It's simply the last large group to join the Nisqa' people. Already. There were others there before them? Yes. All right. There were so many arriving there and they were Wolf and Wolf Eagles and they divided themselves into two groups so that they could legally inter-marry because there weren't other clans in that area on the Nass for them to marry with. And, my lord, the thin line with the cross-hatching is the Temlaxham one. Even though the -- Yes. -- thick dark line parallels it. Yes. There is a different time sequence between those two lines? The dark black lines are the first one. Okay. And then -- yes, and then the cross-hatched lines are the Temlaxham dispersal. Could I have the ancient Fireweed Exhibit 1043 put in front of the witness. And I refer you here to, Ms. Marsden, to tab 28. : Can you excuse me just for a moment, Mr. Grant. All right. Thank you. Where are we going now? : The summary Exhibit 1043, adaawk -- summaries of the adaawk of the ancient history of the Gisgas, tab 28. This is an adaawk. : I am sorry, I haven't caught up yet. : Okay. I am sorry. It's one we did refer to yesterday. That's the one, my lord, the one with the chart on it. : Oh. All right. Yes, all right. And which number, please? : Tab 28. : Thank you. Now, Ms. Marsden, this is -- appears from the top this is an adaawk recorded by William Beynon in 1948/49 with Heber Clifton of Hartley Bay and it's entitled a \"Migration Down the Skeena River.\" Can you with 17201 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 A 4 5 6 7 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 THE COURT 14 MR. GRANT 15 Q 16 17 A 18 Q 19 THE COURT 20 A 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 MR. GRANT 44 Q 45 A 46 MR. GRANT 47 THE COURT reference to this adaawk amplify on what you have been talking about with this dispersal from Temlaxham? All right. This Heber Clifton was one of the better informants. He usually gave a full, rather detailed account of whatever he was talking about. On page two we have the -- page one and the top of page two deal with the events with the fish and the snowfall. Just a moment. You are looking at the original -- Oh, I am sorry. -- rather than the summary, aren't you? Yes. The original. So the summary is in the small type, my lord. : Yes. I have it. But the original starts after that and that's what the witness is referring to. Page two of the original. Number 48 appears \"Migration Down the Skeena River.\" : Yes. He says just at the middle of that last paragraph: \"Let us leave this place and go elsewhere, before we all perish. At once this chief, who was Tsiibasaa and all his brothers got ready to depart. They stepped out of their houses and went down the Skeena River until they reached Gitsegyulka. Here they found that everything was as in the summer. So they stopped. Tsiibasaa and his brothers in this household were very numerous. Some of them said, 'We must not stay here. Let us go down the river to some other locality.'\" And then he goes on: \"Not all of Tsiibasaas' brothers and families followed. Some elected to remain where they were. Others chose to go up the river. So this was the occasion of their separation at Temlaxham.\" This is on the top of the page three, is that right? Yes. Do you have it, my lord? Yes. 17202 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 A I am trying -- I am sorry I am hesitating. I am 2 trying to edit out as many of the Indian words as I 3 can. So Tsiibasaa who is accompanied by his brothers 4 and many of his nephews went down the river. They 5 first stopped at Gitsalasxw. So there we have 6 Gitsegukla, Gitsalasxw and the ones that chose to go 7 up -- upriver from Temlaxham. \"Here several of his 8 nephews stayed behind,\" and he gives their names, 9 \"while the others kept on travelling down the river.\" 10 They went on until they reached the mouth of the 11 Skeena. Here some more of the brothers separated. 12 Aegwilaxha, A-e-g-w-i-1-a-x-h-a, went northwards with 13 his family until they came upon the Gisparhlaw'ts, 14 G-i-s-p-a-r-h-1-a-w-'-t-s. That's -- that's in the 15 Metlakatla area, just above the mouth of the Skeena. 16 And Gyaehluk went with his group to the Git'andaw. 17 G-y-a-e-h-1-u-k. And Git'andaw is G-i-t-'-a-n-d-a-w. 18 And if you remembered yesterday or the day before, I 19 said Git'andaw was in the Kitselas area. They had two 20 villages: their winter village and their summer 21 village. They were the original chiefs of these two 22 tribes before the Lax Xskiik Eagles came. Tsiibasaa 23 and his other brothers travelled south until they came 24 upon what is now the Gitrhahla, G-i-t-r-h-a-h-1-a, 25 section. That's Gitxahla, each with its own small 26 household. And then he goes on to talk about the 27 establishment of Tsiibasaa. Then on page four -- oh, 28 I am sorry, I have skipped the founding of the 29 Gitxahla here. At a slightly later date, in the last 30 second last line on page three, one of the lesser 31 chiefs among them who had a large group of his -- had 32 a large group of his own and he set off -- I am on top 33 of page four now -- to found a territory of his own, 34 they came upon the Wolves at Gixa'ta, at the mouth of 35 the river of the same name, and here they allied 36 themselves with these people. 37 Q Then the next -- I am sorry, the next paragraph refers 38 to: 39 40 \"At Gitsegukla there still remained many of the 41 other branches of the Tsiibasaa clan.\" 42 43 A That's right. And then he goes on to narrate at 44 length the second dispersal from Gitsegukla of 45 'Wiiseeks who goes all the way down to the coast to 46 join Tsiibasaa. 47 Q You recall the other day when you were referring to, I 17203 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 A 5 6 Q 7 8 A 9 Q 10 11 12 13 14 THE COURT 15 A 16 17 THE COURT 18 MR. GRANT 19 20 21 THE COURT 22 MR. GRANT 23 THE COURT 24 MR. GRANT 25 26 27 28 THE COURT 29 MR. GRANT 30 THE COURT 31 MR. GRANT 32 THE COURT 33 MR. GRANT 34 THE COURT 35 MR. GRANT 36 Q 37 38 39 40 41 A 42 Q 43 44 45 A 46 47 believe it was the Gitxahla file of Duff where he actually had some arrows from Temlaxham to Gitsegukla and then arrows of 'Wiiseeks? Yes. Those -- he was -- he was trying to portray those two movements. That's -- he was dealing with the same movements as are described here? Yes. Yes. It's the same. Okay. Now, I'd like you to refer to the chronology of the \"Men of Mediik\" at tab 1042-26, which we referred to yesterday, for different reasons. Do you have that? It's the same as the map. It's just a different tab number. Yes. Tab 25? Maybe I have got wrong -- I am in this book, still. No. 26. Just a moment, my lord. I have just put in 27 so that it's not lost. And it's -- okay. Can you -- with reference to that, does that -- I am sorry, where are you, Mr. Grant? At tab 26, my lord, of Exhibit 1042. Yes. And I am a number of pages in. The page starting \"Chronology of Events In 'Men of Mediik' and 'Wars of Mediik.'\" \"Men of Mediik\" and \"Wars of Mediik,\" my lord, is 898. What number, please? The \"Men of Mediik\"? Yes. It's Exhibit 898. Thank you. And it's entitled \"Mediik\" by Will Robinson. Yes. Now, I am not certain off the top of my head whether that is -- it's at tab 2. It may be that the binder is Exhibit 898, and that's tab 2. Okay. Now, with reference to the chronology, do you wish to have the Mediik in front of you? No. Okay. With reference to the chronology, can you just refer there to how it assisted you in terms of the Temlaxham dispersal? Well, this is a good example of -- we have just read of the movement of these people after leaving Temlaxham, summarized by Heber Clifton in a way that 17204 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 adaawk do a lot. And if you refer to the same events 2 in the \"Men of Ma \u00E2\u0080\u0094 \" in the war \u00E2\u0080\u0094 sorry, in \"Men of 3 Mediik\", you have after the establishment of Kitselas, 4 centuries passing before Tsiibasaa then moves on and 5 establishes himself on the coast. So that's an 6 indication that large time spans can be covered in an 7 adaawk. The important thing that they are relating 8 there is where they came from, where they passed 9 through, where their relatives stayed and where they 10 ended up. 11 Q And just to be clear, you are referring there to entry 12 number six on the first page of the Chronology of 13 Events in Mediik? 14 A That's right. 15 Q And then the parenthetical \"centuries\" which comes out 16 of the \"Men of Mediik\"? 17 A That's correct. 18 Q And then the next description of War of Gitsalasxw 19 (Giskaast) on -- 20 A Well, there is a period of war there before Tsiibasaa 21 moves down. The big time span of centuries. If you 22 look on page two -- 23 Q Yes. 24 A -- Tsiibasaa and Seeks resettle at Gitxahla, at the 25 top there. So the actual time spans indicated are 26 centuries years past and many generations -- no. 27 Sorry, centuries and years past before Gitxahla is 28 established. So the period of wars and then the 29 establishment of Gitxahla follows centuries of 30 establishing Kitselas. 31 Q Okay. Now, just to put us into the time we're talking 32 about now, where on this chronology is the dispersal 33 from Temlaxham? That is, where does it fit into this? 34 A Oh, number three. Famine and migration from 35 Temlaxham. 36 Q Okay. Thank you. So within that chronology grouping 37 of Mediik the establishment of Gitsalasxw and the use 38 of the Gilhaast territory comes within the same time 39 period as the dispersal from Temlaxham in general 4 0 terms? 41 A Yes. They spend some time with Gaak, with the Eagles. 42 But it's not indicated the extent. Probably only 43 years. 44 Q Okay. Now, can I return you now to page 218 of your 45 report. I will be referring back in a few moments to 46 the -- to one of the sketch maps here. So I'll leave 47 this here. Page 218 of your report, and you talk here 17205 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 about the founding of Kispiox, and you state: 2 3 \"According to Solomon Johnson, the founders of 4 Kispayaks were: 5 1. Gitluudahlxw.\" 6 7 G-i-t-1-u-u-d-a-h-l-x-w. 8 9 \"2. T'elgamuux\" 10 11 T-'-e-1-g-a-m-u-u-x. And that's the same chief's name 12 with a different spelling of the first name in this 13 action, right? 14 A Yes. 15 Q \"3. Ma'us\" 16 17 M-a-'-u-s., and: 18 19 \"4. Xantxw,\" 20 21 X-a-n-t-x-w. And in brackets after that \"Kwiiyeehl,\" 22 K-w-i-i-y-e-e-h-1. 23 24 \"These chiefs argued amongst themselves as to who 25 would be head chief of this now independent tribe. 26 They called 27 28 5. Geel, from Kisgagas and made him head chief. 29 The next to come was Xhliimlaxha, Lax Gibuu chief 30 from Gitwinhlkul.\" 31 32 Now, this information came from Soloman Johnson, but 33 it's also reflected in the Duff files on Kispiox, is 34 that right? 35 A Yes. 36 Q Now, you go on on page 225. 37 A Can I just go back to that Xhliimlaxha. That's an 38 interesting -- 39 Q Yes. 40 A Xhliimlaxha is not generally considered to be from 41 Kitwancool. What's being referred to there is that 42 Xhliimlaxha is in part related to that Spokx 43 Niislaganoos group. And during that Temlaxham period 44 when they went up the Kispiox River, some came back 45 and established themselves in Kispiox and others 46 established themselves in Kitwancool. So that's what 47 that refers to is their -- their membership in that 17206 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 THE MR. THE MR. COURT GRANT COURT GRANT Q THE COURT MR. GRANT THE MR. THE MR. COURT GRANT COURT GRANT group. Now, what I would like you to do, Ms. Marsden, is to go back to the ancient Fireweed adaawk, the one that is on your left-hand side there. And in front of the table of contents I have referred you to this. : What number is that, Mr. -- : It's Exhibit 1043, and it's the adaawk of the Fireweed summaries. You were looking at it with the Clifton adaawk. : Yes. What number? Now, right after the chart of Ancient History of the Giskaast that you did, Ms. Marsden, in which you have ordered these adaawk in this binder, the next page which I already alluded you to was the chiefs of Temlaxham origin. And this is a sketch map that you described that you did and except for the change that you have made of Gitangwalk that it should be on the river to the left. What does -- what is the relationship of this to the dispersal of from Temlaxham? : Well, I have a note that this map shows the end result of the dispersal from Temlaxham 2800 to 3200 BP. : If you have that note the witness has already given it and that's -- that's fine. : I am sure that -- : It wasn't put in yours especially. Fine, my lord, I didn't have that note on the map. : It's suspiciously in my handwriting. : Yes. I believe that's right when we were dealing with that. And then you go on on page 225 of your report to state this : \"By the end of the dispersal from Temlaxham, all the major villages of the Gitksan prior to contact had been founded except Gitwingax and Gitanmaaxs, although their exact locations may have since changed.\" And you are referring here to Galdo'o, Kisgagas, Gitsegyukla, and Kispayaks and Gitwinhlkul. \"The composition of these villages was also established for the most part, with only minor subsequent migrations, in each case with a group 17207 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 leaving or joining a House established there. 2 However, there were still small settlements 3 throughout Gitksan territory, as, for example, 4 that of 'Noole at the canyon, or the northern 5 settlement at Blackwater. Clearly people were 6 free to establish themselves within their 7 territory wherever they deemed it suitable.\" 8 9 And that's your conclusion from reading these adaawk? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Isn't that right? 12 A The dispersal, they don't -- for example, the 13 formation of the Village of Kitwancool takes place 14 over a period of time. These -- the Gitsegukla and 15 Kispiox move, although they are basically stable. 16 Galdo'o, for example, was an ancient village that was 17 found and then people moved to Gitangasx and more 18 resent date back to Galdo'o, so there is, you know -- 19 there is variation over time, but these villages have 20 been found by this time. Well, these -- Kitwancool is 21 founded by the end of the dispersal. 22 Q Okay. I take it it's your conclusion that if one -- 23 if one had been alive at the time after the dispersal 24 and had gone to the general vicinities of where each 25 of these villages is now, one would have found a 26 village there. That's what you are describing? 27 A Except for -- no. What I am saying here is that by 28 this time these villages had been founded. I am not 29 saying that these villages were occupied at this time. 30 There was movement back and forth in some cases. 31 Q Okay. Now, you describe: 32 33 \"that the present system of exclusively-owned 34 House territories within a clan territory has 35 evolved since dispersal.\" 36 37 at the bottom of page 225, and the top of page 226: 38 39 \"Until then, a large area occupied by two or more 40 clans constituted a people within the Gitksan, 41 Gitangasx, for example.\" 42 43 Can you just expand on what you are referring to 44 there? 45 A Well, in the adaawk after the dispersal you start to 46 get references to -- and also in the file, the 47 territory files by -- that Duff has collected for all 1720? S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 THE COURT MR. GRANT THE COURT MR. GRANT THE COURT MR. GRANT Q of the Tsimshian and Nisqa and Gitksan people you start now to get a subdividing of larger areas of land into House group territories. Now, at page 9166 of the transcript -- this is Volume 14 4, my lord. 9166? Page 9166. Volume 44, one -- Volume 14 4. Yes. Commencing lines 15 through to 28, I will read you the evidence of Mr. Gottesfeld. He's talking about a landslide event at Chicago Creek. I am sorry, I am starting at line four: \"Q From your general review of the landslides in the study area --\" And this is the area around Hazelton, \" -- is this the largest event in the study area? A This is the largest event in the map area. Q Now -- A To say at least the composite fan at Chicago Creek is the largest feature and, assuming that the 3580 year event, the 3600 year-old landslide, occupied all or most of the area now covered by younger deposits, it would have been the largest event in the area. Q And can you tell us from your studying of this event whether or not it was a single landslide event or a production of several events? A Well, there is a number of events visible on the Chicago Creek fan of different ages. I believe that that event did about 3600 years which formed the lobe that blocked the Seeley Creek and diverted Chicago Creek, I believe that was a single event; that one can walk across the deposit, examine it in various places, and it hangs together as a single map unit, similar soil development throughout. At least one can be sure that it is all of similar age and that there are no topographic expressions, no surface 17209 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 expressions of different lobes within that 2 area. 3 Q And based upon your observation, what effect 4 had this debris lobe on Seeley Lake? 5 A That debris lobe diverted Chicago Creek and 6 dammed the outlight of Seeley Lake. 7 Q And would that account for rise of water 8 level on Seeley Lake? 9 A I am quite sure it raised Seeley Lake by two 10 or three meet metres.\" 11 12 Now, earlier on Dr. Gottesfeld had been asked if -- 13 and he assumed that if the adaawk -- and he's 14 referring here to the Mediik adaawk. He seems that -- 15 it seems like it's a distinct possibility that if 16 something -- some extraordinarily impressive event had 17 been happening and had happened and if the adaawk and 18 oral history accounts reflect things that have 19 happened in the past and such things might well have 20 been talked about today, and he was operating on -- 21 there was an objection and it was an assumption that 22 the \"Men of Mediik\" narrative with respect to the 23 Mediik adaawk was true in the event that occurred at 24 that time. Now, is it consistent with what you have 25 found in terms of the sequencing of events up to this 26 point that the largest events in the area of Temlaxham 27 and if -- the largest event in the area of Temlaxham 28 being a landslide, a blockage of Seeley Lake and the 29 landslide down Chicago Creek occurred in about 3600 30 years before present, is that consistent with your 31 timing of the dispersal of Temlaxham. 32 MS. WILLMS: Well, I object, my lord. I understand that the 33 dispersal from Temlaxham by this witness is based on 34 that, based on the landslide which Dr. Gottesfeld 35 described as very large and brown and roaring, that 36 the landslide was a grizzly bear, I assumed that that 37 is what this witness is assuming and that's how she 38 dated it. She hasn't indicated any other independent 39 dating from this area. It's not in her report anyway. 40 So I object. 41 MR. GRANT: There is dating in the witness' report and the first 42 thing -- but I am asking for sequencing. 43 THE COURT: I thought I asked her the other day, she said yes, 44 that's what the basis for that dating. 45 MR. GRANT: Yes, but I asked if this is consistent with the 46 sequencing of events. 47 THE COURT: Oh, I think that's a different question. You are 17210 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. GRANT THE COURT MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. GRANT COURT GRANT COURT GRANT COURT GRANT COURT GRANT talking about sequencing. That's right. And that's what I was asking, if that dating is consistent with sequencing of the events which she described in her report. Which is what she's -- I think the problem with that, Mr. Grant, is that she has already included the date in her description of the sequence. So there isn't anything to be consistent, whether it's equally of the same thing or equal to each other. I suppose what you're asking is is it consistent with the sequence that you have discovered in the adaawk for there to have been an event of the kind Dr. Gottesfeld described at 3500 -- 3600. 3600 BP. I suppose that's what you're asking. That's right. Well, I think she has already told you that. If you -- She has it right in her chronology, 3500. It's written right in there somewhere. I'd like to get Exhibit 844. Should we take the morning adjournment. Oh, certainly, my lord. (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED PURSUANT TO MORNING BREAK) I hereby certify the foregoing to be a true and accurate transcript of the proceedings herein to the best of my skill and ability. Laara Yardley, Official Reporter, United Reporting Service Ltd. 17211 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 THE REGISTRAR: THE COURT MR. GRANT Q MR. MR. MR. Mr. (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 11:20) Order in court. Grant. A Q A Thank you, my lord. Miss Marsden, I'm referring you to Exhibit 884, which is in front of you, and it is the report of Sylvia Albright on archaeological evidence of Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en history, and I specifically refer you to table 5, and table 5 refers to the Kitselas Canyon, the Paul Mason site at which is dated at 3200 BP, and it's referred to in that chart as a village site. Are you aware of that -- of that dating? Yes. And is the dating of a village site at Kitselas at 2300 BP consistent with your sequencing of the dispersal of Temlaxam? Yes. That general area was occupied for a long time, but there are no accounts of villages within the canyon until the arrival of the people from Temlaxam. Thank you. That's table 5 of Exhibit 884 which refers to that. WILLMS: My lord, I should point out, my friend put the table from the final copy, and when Miss Albright was cross-examined on the draft she acknowledged that the Paul Mason site was from 3600 to 3200, not as depicted on table 5, so I don't know whether that affects the witness' answer that there is a village, according to Copeland, from 3600 to 3200. Maybe it doesn't affect her opinion at all. GRANT: Could you just give me the page reference there? WILLMS: It's page 10565, January 12th, 1989, volume 165, lines 12 down to 32, where Miss Albright acknowledges that her lines are out a couple of hundred years, that they're not meant to be precise. MR. GRANT MR. GRANT: Q A Q A Thank you, Mr. Willms, I had that noted, and I don't have the transcript here. Mr. Willms is just referring to his. And if -- are you aware of the Copeland findings at Kitselas? Yes. And if the range of years for the finding of the village site is 3600 BP to 3200 BP, is that consistent with your findings? Well, I know I'm not supposed to address archaeological issues, but it's -- to my recollection 17212 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 in Copeland's work, 3600 isn't the date, but in terms 2 of the sequencing of events that I'm doing, the 3 sequence doesn't change by the dates, and there's a 4 broad range in terms of the eras that I'm dealing 5 with. 6 Q And from your research in terms of in relation to the 7 dispersal of Temlaxam and also the adaawk you've dealt 8 with before the time of dispersal of Temlaxam, where 9 does the -- at what time does the placing of the 10 village site at Kitselas occur, that is not talking 11 about years, but in terms of the sequencing? 12 A The people dispersed from Temlaxam, they established 13 themselves at Kitselas, they're resident there for a 14 long period of time, and then they continue on to the 15 coast. 16 MR. GRANT: Now, I'd like to refer you back to your report, 17 still in volume 1 -- sorry, I would like to go to page 18 233 to 235. Now, at this part you refer to the Eagle 19 group at page 233, my lord. 2 0 THE COURT: Yes. 21 MR. GRANT: This \u00E2\u0080\u0094 you referred to an Eagle group in \u00E2\u0080\u0094 Eagle 22 group at Gilots'aw', G-I-L-O-T-S, apostrophe A-W 23 apostrophe, had a long history and was composed of 24 people from a number of migrations. 25 THE COURT: Sorry, I don't know where Gilots'aw' is? 26 A It's in the same area as the Kitselas, it's in that 27 lake house, Terrace kind of. There's actually a very 28 handy map that MacDonald did indicating that area. 2 9 THE COURT: Thank you. 3 0 MR. GRANT: 31 Q And you go on to talk about the Eagles and quote from 32 some of the adaawk in the next following pages. Could 33 you just explain what was happening with the Eagle 34 clan in this era that is relevant to the Gitksan? 35 A Well, the Eagle clan was present but it wasn't a 36 dominant factor the way it became later on. With the 37 arrival of the northern Eagles from the Tlingit area 38 and from the Laxwiiyip area, the Tsimshian Eagle group 39 became stronger, and also there was a migration from 40 the Haida of Eagle people. 41 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Mr. Grant, I'm going to have to adjourn 42 for just a moment, please. I may be as much as five 43 minutes. 44 4 5 (SHORT RECESS TAKEN) 46 47 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. 17213 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Grant. 2 MR. GRANT: Could you put Exhibit 1042 in front of the witness, 3 please. Now, just before going to that -- 4 THE REGISTRAR: Just a moment, Mr. Grant. 5 MR. GRANT: 6 Q Just before going to that, I would like to refer you 7 to page 236 and 237 -- 237, I should say, of your 8 report. And you refer here to -- you were referring 9 to the Eagles, that's what you've been describing? 10 A I wasn't quite finished with the answer. 11 Q Yes. Could you just proceed with that? 12 A Well, it's during this time period that the Eagles 13 become a prominant force among the Tsimshian and to a 14 lesser extent among the Gitksan, with the Haida Eagle 15 group coming up the -- up through Kitimat and joining 16 the Gitsalasxw, forming an alliance with them and 17 establishing themselves at Kitselas, and with the 18 incursion among -- on the coast among the Tsimshian 19 and Tlingit and Laxwiiyip. These groups came to play 20 an important part in the ensuing decades. 21 Q Just one point, on page 237, before I come to your 22 conclusion, you've been referring to Tsiibasaa, and 23 here you start: 24 25 \"With Tsiibasaa in a key position among the 26 southern Tsimshian at Gitxahla, the Fireweed were 27 now established in strategic locations along the 28 entire length of the Skeena River and on the coast 29 to the south.\" 30 31 And that is the evolution of the Fireweed you're 32 describing, that is their spread from the time of the 33 creation of Fireweed? 34 A Yes. They now have closely related houses along the 35 full length of the lower Skeena and on the coast. 36 Q Is there a Chief Tsiibasaa among the coastal Tsimshian 37 today, to your knowledge? 38 A Yes, there is. He lives in Prince Rupert. 39 Q And there is a Tsiibasaa among the Gitksan? 40 A Yes, among the Kispiox people. 41 Q That's the brother of Antgulilibix, Mary Johnson? 42 A That's right. 43 Q Do you recall what Tsiibasaa, where that name in the 4 4 adaawk -- where that name came from? 45 A Well, the way it's told in the adaawk, when they're 46 dispersing from Temlaxham one of the brothers is -- 47 they're hungry and they capture a grouse, and there's 17214 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 a certain time of the year when the grouse is drumming 2 when you can almost walk right up to it. And they 3 walk right up to the grouse and grab it by the leg, 4 and that's how they nourish themselves. Their brother 5 is already dead by this time, if I remember correctly, 6 and they mourn his loss and they make a name, 7 Tsiibasaa, which means \"He who grabs leg of the 8 drumming grouse\". 9 Q This is the adaawk that occurs in the area Kitsegukla? 10 A That's right. 11 MR. GRANT: That was given in evidence by Mary Johnson in that 12 volume I've referred you to, my lord. Yes. Was Tsiibasaa Mary Johnson's brother? Yes. Mary Johnson. Mary Johnson's brother, Stanley Wilson, Tsiibasaa. All right, thank you. 13 THE COURT: 14 MR. GRANT: 15 THE COURT: 16 MR. GRANT: 17 THE COURT: 18 MR. GRANT: 19 Q You then state in conclusion at 237 that: 20 21 \"The Skeena River Tsimshian were still a loose 22 alliance of Skeena River and Metlakatla villages 23 at this time. It took the initial threat and 24 later influence of the Tlingit, combined with 25 competition from the expanded network of Fireweed 26 peoples, to weave the Tsimshian into a tightly 27 knit people. The unification of the Tsimshian was 28 the final factor in a series of changes along the 29 Skeena River, changes that resulted in the 30 emergence of a new coastal-inland relationship 31 that was to have significant effects among the 32 Gitksan.\" 33 34 And your description of the evolution of the Tsimshian 35 into a tightly knit people, you conclude that that 36 happens after this time that we've talked to up to 37 now? 38 A Yes. Although they considered themselves to be one 39 people, the groups that lived on the Skeena River 40 were -- didn't interact as frequently with the groups 41 on the coast as they did after -- after this time 42 period with the need to group their forces and drive 43 the northern peoples back. They become more united, 44 and it's stated in the -- by informants that this was 45 the time when they started their seasonal round with 46 the winter Metlakatla and the summers up river, and 47 they all had their villages together at Metlakatla 17215 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 after this. 2 Q Could you refer to Exhibit 1042, tab 13, page 2. This 3 is your timeline with the socioculture overview, your 4 summary of different parts of your report, and on page 5 2 you have part 3, \"Dispersal from Laxwiiyip and 6 dispersal from Temlaxham\". And on the second page 7 there you list a number of features that you found -- 8 or a number of features occurring at this time in 9 terms of the development of sociopolitical and 10 cultural characteristics. And those are features that 11 you observed as a result of the -- in describing your 12 report? 13 A That's right. 14 Q Now, and the -- okay. Is it correct to say that in 15 reading this time -- this sociopolitical and cultural 16 characteristics that they're cumulative? In other 17 words, at this point in time you have all of those 18 features that have existed up to this time plus what 19 you've now listed? 20 A Yes. Except for those features that have been 21 modified as a result of the changes. 22 Q Okay. Now, I would like to go to volume 2 of your 23 report, and you don't -- I don't believe you're going 24 to need to refer to volume 1, you can let madam 25 registrar take it. Now, my lord, I am going to 26 approach this volume in a different way, primarily for 27 pragmatic reasons, and shorten down by not making so 28 many references to sections of the volume but by 29 having the witness explain it. Okay, the first part 30 here you talk about in chapter 5, and this is -- 31 although the numbering restarts, this is sequential to 32 your first volume, is that right, as the next part of 33 your report? 34 A Yes. 35 Q You talk about the Tsimshian and Gitsalasxw, and you 36 refer to it as \"The Rise of Trade\", and you also in 37 your sub-heading is the \"Gitsalasxw and the 38 Coastal-Inland Border\". Now, can you -- and I would 39 like you to refer to tab 26 of that document book in 40 front of you, the Mediik time-line, just have that -- 41 maybe your lordship can have that just at hand, 42 because the witness will be referring to it at times. 43 Can you describe for his lordship what your -- can you 44 describe for his lordship what you're talking about or 45 what you are dealing with here and why you have headed 46 this section as the \"Rise of Trade\"? 47 A Once Gitsalasxw becomes a substantial village it's 17216 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 just at the time of Tsiibasaa's move to the coast that 2 the -- it's in that general time period that they 3 break the dam in their oral histories. They say there 4 was a large Beaver dam on -- if you look at the -- if 5 you look at the last page in tab 26 -- 6 Q It's the very last page, my lord. 7 A It's an aerial photograph of the canyon at Kitselas, 8 and the Paul Mason site that Copeland did was on the 9 right-hand side of the canyon about half-way up, but 10 there are other references to locations where they 11 lived in the canyon, and during over -- over time they 12 decided to break the dam, and if you look where number 13 3 is, just below that is where they say the dam was -- 14 sorry, just above that, and those two islands at the 15 top of the canyon there were previously submerged, so 16 the river wasn't actually passable by canoe traffic 17 straight through the canyon. And when this period 18 starts it is -- and the Gitsalasxw controlled the 19 canyon and they don't let anybody through to trade 20 without their permission, and the control is 21 established at this point. 22 Q Is that control that you're describing reflected in 23 the adaawk? 24 A Yes. They state that explicitly. 2 5 Q Mm-hmm. 26 A They actually state control of the canyon earlier in 27 terms of it being their own, and during this time the 28 Tsimshian start to trade up river, and this first 29 section deals with that. 30 Q Now, if you look at the -- if you look at the time 31 chart that is the \"Chronology of Events in 'Men of 32 Mediik' and 'Wars of Mediik'\", a few pages ahead of 33 that aerial photo, where are we talking about now in 34 reflecting the Men of Mediik? 35 A The Men of Mediik is over in this time period. On 36 page 2, number 24, it says: 37 38 \"Destruction of the Beaver dam that made the great 39 lake of the beavers.\" 40 41 Which was one of their primary sources of food up 42 until then, and then you have the -- them all moving 43 to a new location, which is called Doon Doon, which is 44 where they establish one of the railway building 45 communities. It's called New Town. And then at a 46 later date they all return back closer to the canyon, 47 and then again to -- they move their villages several 17217 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 times in the canyon, and then the end of Men of 2 Mediik, and it's after this that the rise of trade 3 starts to become apparent in the adaawk. 4 Q Now, you had already described that Tsiibasaa was 5 involved in the last wars of the Tlingit on the coast 6 and had pushed them back north. I believe you 7 described that earlier this morning? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And is it at the same time or subsequent to that this 10 rise of trade occurs? 11 A It's subsequent to that when Tsiibasaa is 12 established -- well, the Fireweed have established a 13 whole sequence of related village groups down the 14 Skeena and to the coast, and they use the canyon to 15 trade, and over time the Eagles become competitive 16 with them for access to that up-river trade. 17 Q Mm-hmm. Now, in this section of your report in the 18 first several pages 4, 5 and -- 4 and 5 you talk about 19 the development of the -- page 5 you say: 20 21 \"The introduction or intensification, among the 22 Tsimshian, of class structure and competition for 23 status and the wealth that could bring it, 24 gradually change the nature of Tsimshian society.\" 25 26 Is this evolution or intensification that you're 27 describing, is this occurring at this period of time? 28 A Yes. When the village records of origins, when the -- 29 when the Tsimshian villages are joined by the migrants 30 in the north, they immediately start talking more, 31 very consistently about royalty and which houses are 32 royalty, and it's very often, most often the houses 33 from the north that become the royal houses. 34 Q Now, on pages -- page 10 you refer to the Men of 35 Mediik, and what you've already described as their 36 control of the sea route -- control of the river 37 route. I would note that, for your lordship, and I 38 would like to turn you to the second section of this 39 part of your report, where you talk about \"Gitank'aat 4 0 and Gitluusek: The Border Area Expands\". And you 41 state on page 15: 42 43 \"It is the intra-clan alliances forged at 44 Gitsalasxw that extended inland and created the 45 two great towns of Gitluusek and Gitank'aat. As 46 with Luuxoon and his people, whose identity was 47 Gitksan, but who provided a link to the 1721? S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A THE COURT A THE COURT A THE COURT A THE COURT Laxwiiyip.\" And that's what you were talking about yesterday; is that right? That's right. \"these Gitksan towns provided a link, through Gitsalasxw, to the Tsimshian. Here, however, in a later, more complex era, than Luuxoon's, and in a highly complex situation, this link was not simply between two branches of one clan group or common origin, as with Luuxoon, but was formed by a merger of groups of inland and coastal origins in three clans, a merger based on a common ancient heritage to which new elements had been added.\" Now, can you just explain what you're referring to there in the terms of the complex era and that description? Well, it's around this time that these two towns become prominent, and they're close -- Gitsalasxw is here and Gitank'aat is at -- I'm not very good with the English names of rivers, it's up river from Kitselas and above -- that is Gitluusek is. So you have the two very important villages, one dominated by the Frog clan at Gitluusek, and one dominated by the Eagle clan at Gitluudahlxw, evolving, and as they're described in the files and in the adaawk, they're bilingual villages and bicultural in the sense that they have both royalty and non-royalty, and it's the only -- it's the only period during Gitksan history where this -- where this use of the coastal social organization is as dominant, and the Gitsalasxw people at this time are actually more -- well, they're closely linked with their relatives on the coast, but they're actually still more closely linked with their relatives up river. So these villages are in a sense an extension of Kitselas. : I don't think I've heard of Gitluusek before. I take it it's close to Gitank'aat? It's right at Cedarvale. : Both of them? At \u00E2\u0080\u0094 : Or is Gitluusek at Cedarvale? Right, right at the eastern end of Cedarvale on the highway side. : All right, thank you. 17219 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 MR. GRANT 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 MR. GRANT 7 THE COURT 8 9 10 A 11 THE COURT 12 A 13 MR. GRANT 14 15 A 16 17 THE COURT 18 19 MR. GRANT 20 THE COURT 21 MR. GRANT 22 Q 23 24 25 A 26 Q 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 A 45 Q 46 47 A And Gitank'aat is down river of that? Yes. Yes? Yes. Now -- I was given a name for where -- a present name for where Gitank'aat is, and I don't remember now, for Lome Creek? It's Fiddler or Legate, or -- Yeah, Fiddler Creek, one of those creeks? Yeah. I was trying to remember which creek it was, I just can't remember. I think it was between Fiddler and Legate, I think, that's why -- All right, thank you. That's down river from Cederdale, is it? Cedarvale. Cedarvale. Yep. Now, Miss Albright has given evidence in this court of a dating at Gitank'aat of 1700 years before the present. Is that consistent with your sequencing? It falls in this time period, yes. Now, on pages 15 -- or sorry, 16 at the bottom through to page 18, you give a description. You start by saying: \"A sense of the place of Gitank'aat in the history of this area comes out of an examination of the Eagle groups who ultimately came together to make up the present Gitwingax Eagle Houses of T'ewelasxw, Skayeen, Sakxwmhiigook, Gilawoo' and Simediik. The original people at Swoolekstaat have been discussed. They are the Eagle-Wolf or Laxnadze, usually referred to by the chief's name Gook, from which both the present Eagles and some of the Wolves at Gitwingax originate.\" Now, I just want to clarify a few points there. These chiefs' names that you referred to at the second line there, those are Eagle chiefs? That's right. Now, Skwoolekstaat, can you tell his lordship where that is? That's Wilson Creek. 17220 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 MR. GRANT 2 3 THE COURT 4 MR. GRANT 5 Q 6 7 8 A 9 10 Q 11 12 13 A 14 Q 15 16 17 A 18 19 20 Q 21 22 A 23 24 Q 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 A 33 34 35 Q 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 : That's the place referred to in Art Matthew's evidence, my lord. : Yes, thank you. I believe you viewed it on the viewing. And then the chief's name, Gook, is that -- is there another name for Gook? Sakxwmhiigook. That's the one on the second lake, S-A-K-X-W-M-H-I-I-G-O-O-K. And in the adaawk it's sometimes referred to as Gook and sometimes as Sakxwmhiigook, but it's the same chief's name? That's right. Now, in this part you describe the Eagles. You go on in the balance of this page to describe the Eagles and their relationships; is that right? As I was saying earlier, I go on to talk about the other groups that join and make up the Eagle clan as it is known today. And this is of particular relevance to the Eagle Houses of Gitank'aat? Yes. And this is the time period when it comes together at Gitank'aat among the Gitksan. Now, I'm going to refer you to Exhibit 898, tab 2, the Men of Mediik and Wars of Mediik. Now, you've already referred to that and you're familiar with it, and I just like to refer you to tab 2. I believe you've described -- you read this, okay. Now, is there anything in that that has assisted you in terms of the time span -- time distinctions that you were just describing earlier about this era? Well, the next era, trade, wars and the slave raids, it's part of the same era of trade, but it's the next chapter. Well, I refer you to Roman numeral VII of the prologue of Exhibit 898, tab 2, Roman numeral VII, V-I-I. Now, is there -- there he states, and this is in the prologue: \"The history is in two parts. A natural break comes in the narrative. While chronology, as we know it, did not exist, close questioning led to a reasonable assumption that the first part ended some 600 to 700 years ago.\" And this is the preface of Will Robinson that he put in in November 10 of 1941? 17221 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 A That's right. 2 Q And where was he talking about there, that 600, 700 3 year thing? 4 A Well, that's the final events in Men of Mediik are the 5 6 to 700 years ago, but he also mentions in the 6 preface, he says \"A natural break comes in the 7 narrative\". I'm not sure what page. 8 Q That's Roman numeral VII, it's right before what I 9 just read to you. 10 A Oh, right. The history's in two parts. The natural 11 break comes in the narrative, he has 6 to 700 years 12 from the last events in Men of Mediik to the present 13 from which he's speaking, but if you look at Men of 14 Mediik and analyse the internal chronology in Men of 15 Mediik, you have a span of approximately 400 years 16 in -- sorry, not Men of Mediik -- in Wars of Mediik. 17 If you look at Wars of Mediik and analyse the 18 chronology in it, you have a span of approximately 400 19 years ending approximately in 1890. So this natural 20 break covers a couple of centuries, two or three 21 centuries in terms of the dating. 22 Q So the Men of Mediik, now that we're almost to 1990, 23 the Men of Mediik would end about 500 years ago, if 24 there's a natural sequencing? 25 A No. The Men of Mediik ends when he says it does. 26 There's just a break in the narrative, there are no 27 events recorded for the time period between when Men 28 of Mediik ends and Wars of Mediik begins, and Wars of 29 Mediik takes 400 years approximately. And the first 30 events in Wars of Mediik are the events that I've 31 outlined in chapter 6 on page 29, which are Legyeex's 32 first attacks against the people at Gitsalasxw, 33 G-I-T-S-A-L-A-S-X-W. 34 Q That's where I was going to actually take you now. 35 We're into chapter 6, my lord, on page 29, \"Trade Wars 36 and Slave Raids\" 1000 BP to 200 BP, and Legyeex's 37 attacks at Gitsalasxw. Now, his lordship has heard of 38 Legyeex, and can you assist in terms of what -- 39 A Well, Legyeex did not want to -- did not want to 40 respect the control of the canyon that the Gitsalasxw 41 had, and he tried to defeat them twice, and there are 42 excellent long accounts in Wars of Mediik of the type 43 of warfare that took place in those attempts. In the 44 second one he was successful in forcing them to 45 retreat up river temporarily, and he burned their 46 village, but there's no indication that that allowed 47 him the success of going through the canyon at will as 17222 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 a result, but it was a major -- major defeat for the 2 Gitsalasxw, and that takes place at the beginning of 3 Wars of Mediik, so that would be approximately 1480, 4 1490, now that we're in AD dating. 5 Q It would be about 1480 or 1490 AD? 6 A Approximately 400 years before the end of Wars of 7 Mediik, which is 1890. 8 Q And from page 29 through 37 you extracted parts of the 9 Wars of Mediik description of this and also synopsize 10 what was happening in this particular battle? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Or series, sorry? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Is that right? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Is there anything further you wish to say regarding 17 that battle? 18 A Just that the name, as Wars of Mediik goes on to say, 19 that over the next 200-year period the House of 20 Legyeex, the group and the village that Legyeex leads, 21 the Gispaxloots, G-i-s-p-a-x-1-o-o-t-s, rise to a 22 position of power, and they are continually attempting 23 to increase their up-river trade. They're not really 24 at peace with the Gitsalasxw, and then it -- they 25 go -- the hostilities between the Gitsalasxw and 26 Legyeex are terminated by the fact that the Haida 27 become a greater threat. 28 Q Well, I just want to -- I think you've alluded to it, 29 but as his lordship said yesterday, there has been 30 evidence here of Legyeex involved in the 1800's in 31 events. Are you aware of descriptions from the adaawk 32 or the Wars of -- and the wars of Mediik that refer to 33 Legyeex being involved in the 1800's? 34 A Yes. There was -- there were a number of Legyeex's, 35 one of them who burned Kispiox, another whom was 36 converted by Duncan and Metlakatla. 37 Q You conclude from your analysis of the adaawk that 38 there are a series of Legyeex's? 39 A Yes. Well, it's stated \u00E2\u0080\u0094 40 Q Stated in the \u00E2\u0080\u0094 41 A It's stated in a number of places. 42 Q And I believe, if I remember right, Miss Marsden, that 43 this description here that you start at page 29 in 44 terms of sequencing of the adaawk is the first time 45 you described Legyeex and his involvement; is that 46 right? 47 A Yes. This is the first time his name comes to 17223 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q A Q A Q A MR. GRANT THE COURT MR. GRANT THE COURT MR. GRANT Q prominence. And you've concluded that's around 1480 or 1490? From the internal dating of Wars of Mediik, yes. Can you go to page 37, which you then commence the next sector after the Gitsalasxw wars in which you talk about the Slave Raids and the Haida-Skeena River War. And what are you specifically dealing with here? What has happened of significance in terms of your sequencing in the development of the Gitksan? Well, in Wars of Mediik, this is a couple of centuries after the wars with the Gitsalasxw. Mm-hmm? Legyeex is in the Nass and his -- he is attacked by the Haida. He's at the Nass for the oolichan fishing and he's attacked by the Haida, and as a result he requests the Gitsalasxw to come to his assistance in retaliating, and the Gitsalasxw people call upon their relationships with some of the Gitksan and they send a canoe up river and ask for the best warriors among the Gitksan to assist them in this war. And as a result the -- Walter Wright's version in Wars of Mediik covers the war, but so does the one that I've quoted here from Willis Morgan and Jack Morgan. : On page 40 you're referring to the Jack Morgan account, and he states there that: \"They conscript the best fighters, the strong men, who they already trained to fight. One man at Gitsegyukla - his name was Gasx --\" Where are you on page 30? 40. I'm sorry, my lord. Page 40. Page 40. \"he's the chief. Really his name was Wiiget, but he so bad man, that's why they called him Gasx...just a nickname ... He's a strong man and he's a fighter. He's one of them constripts... all the conscripts they loaded in the canoes and they went down. And a whole bunch of people... below Gitsalasxw, all the way down to the mouth of the Skeena River, there's a lot of villages, and they conscript every village.\" 17224 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 And is that person they're talking about there 2 connected with the Gitksan chief today? 3 A Yes. As they say, really his name was Wiiget, and 4 that's the chief in Gitsegyukla. And if you look on 5 page 41 -- 6 Q Yes? 7 A When they go down river, before they head across the 8 open water they -- there's a supernatural experience 9 that takes place, and there's a crest that comes out 10 of this event. And if you go to Kitsegukla today, you 11 will see in the front in Wiiget's front yard a large 12 sculptured tombstone of this crest which takes the 13 form of a large bear with a pole sticking out of its 14 back, bear-like creature. 15 Q And you've seen that? 16 A Yes. 17 Q You've seen that crest in Wiiget's place? Can you 18 turn to page 46, please. You say at the top, and I 19 think I understand from my note that you're talking 20 here -- \"With this war\", you're talking about the 21 Haida war, aren't you, the war with the Haida? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Legyeex and Niistaxhuuk; Niistaxhuuk being the chief 24 of Gitsalasxw? 25 A Yes. 26 Q 27 \"united by their common enemy, formed an uneasy 28 alliance. After this, Legyeex held in 29 check his desire to break the hold of the 30 Gitsalasxw on the river traffic. He feuded 31 intermittently with Gitxoon, the Eagle chief of 32 Gitsalasxw, but, in spite of his efforts, the 33 Fireweed maintained control of the river, and the 34 Gitxoon remained first among the Eagles. It 35 wasn't until the mid-1800's, when Legyeex forged 36 an alliance with the Hudson's Bay Company by 37 marrying his daughter to Dr. Kennedy, the factor 38 at Port Simpson, that he made his final bid for 39 control of the river.\" 40 41 So here you're talking about in this -- the first part 42 of this paragraph, the description of what's occurred 43 and alliance that arose out of the Haida wars? 44 A That's right. And in terms of the dating of that, you 45 have the internal dating of Wars of Mediik, but also 46 they prepared the hill at Battle Hill, which was their 47 ongoing fortress, which they used when they were 17225 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. MR. MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE Q A threatened from outside, be Haida were going to attack developed that hill at that Mm-hmm? And MacDonald refers in his the range of possible dates the hill, and he puts that Q I'm just going to refer you registrar has it. And this MacDonald article on the Ep this what you're referring A Yes. WILLMS: That's 847. GRANT: I'm sorry, 847? And if you take the date fr would be around 1680, it fa that MacDonald has for what quote him exactly. On page Page 73, my lord. I don't think I have it. Of Exhibit 847. I don't have it. What's Page 73, my lord. Of Exhibit 8 \u00E2\u0080\u0094 847, tab 19. Thank you. He says that \"The occurrenc end, just about at the end paragraph: Q A GRANT COURT GRANT COURT GRANT COURT GRANT COURT A cause they thought the them full out. And they time. article on Battle Hill to for this earlier use of range as 1550 to 1750. to Exhibit 847. Madam is \u00E2\u0080\u0094 Exhibit 447 is the ic of Nekt, my lord. Is to? om Wars of Mediik, which lis half-way in that range he calls the -- I better 73 in the Epic of Nekt. the pagel e\" -- this is almost at the of the second to last \"The occurrence of lithic tools in the underlying pre-historic strata, which have not been dated, suggests that the pre-historic occupation of the site pre-dates the mid-eighteenth century by as much as one to two hundred years.\" So that's 1750 back to 1550. And then he goes on to connect this with the oral traditions: \"These dates seem to align with those suggested in the oral traditions, that is, the period between the beginning of the Haida wars and the final abandonment of the fortress in the move to Kitwanga village.\" With respect to his comment that these appear to link 17226 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 with the oral histories of the beginning of the Haida 2 wars, is that -- do you agree with that? 3 A Well, as I said, 1680 is the date from the internal 4 dating of Wars of Mediik, and that fits in the time 5 range that MacDonald has allotted for these events. 6 THE COURT: Is that for the start or the end of the Wars of 7 Mediik, or is that the midpoint? 8 A Midpoint. 9 MR. WILLMS: My lord, the MacDonald does, at the top of the 10 page, say that the oral history involving the Kitwanga 11 Fort indicates that there were wars beginning just 12 before 1700 and lasting into the 1830's. I think that 13 sets the time a little more precisely than the 14 witness' guestimate. 15 THE COURT: MacDonald says \u00E2\u0080\u0094 16 MR. WILLMS: He says just before 1700 until the 1830's at the 17 top of the page on page 73. 18 MR. GRANT: Of course my friend is free to ask the witness about 19 that or even deal with it in argument, but -- 20 MR. WILLMS: Well, I was just trying to help the witness out, my 21 lord, because it was kind of blurry. It's 100 to 200 22 years, and maybe she hadn't seen that. My friend 23 didn't direct her to it. 2 4 MR. GRANT: 25 Q Now, in this particular section on Neek't and The 26 T'a'oots'ip at Battle Hill, you refer to the 27 commission evidence of Fred Johnson, that's chief 28 Lelt. And he describes the Nekt in his evidence; is 29 that right? 30 A Where are you? 31 Q I'm on page 49. I'm sorry, yes, page 49 at the very 32 bottom, page 50 and 51? 33 A Yes. This is the later era that we're dealing with 34 now. 35 Q I'm sorry, yeah. I didn't -- 36 A The Haida wars are over. 37 Q Yes? 38 A In that earlier period. 39 Q Mm-hmm. And so now you're talking about something 40 that has occurred later on? 41 A Yes. This is another event. 42 Q Now, you've described Legyeex here. You talk about 43 Nekt and The T'a'oots'ip at Battle Hill, you described 44 Legyeex as if there were a number of Legyeex's from 45 your reading of oral history? 46 A That's right. 47 Q Have you come to any conclusion regarding Nekt? When 17227 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 the court sees reference to the name Nekt, should we 2 assume for the purposes of the oral history there is 3 one or more than one Nekt? 4 A Well, the name Nekt continues on, but Nekt was not a 5 major chief of a house, much as he was very important 6 during the time when he was the main warrior, and the 7 name of the important warriors in history doesn't 8 continue on necessarily as the leading name of a house 9 the way the name of a leading chief does. In other 10 words, the status of a warrior, much as he may be a 11 chief and his name may be perpetuated, it's not -- 12 it's one generation, it's a single person thing. 13 Q So have you in your conclusions concluded that Nekt is 14 one person when we see him in the oral -- 15 A Yes. The events that are being dealt with in the Nekt 16 series of adaawk are dealing with one person. 17 Q Now, you say this is after the Haida wars, and what 18 range of time are we looking at here when we're 19 talking about Nekt? 20 A Okay. I would like to go back to Battle Hill. Battle 21 Hill was, according to the oral histories, prepared 22 for attack, but the attack was made instead on the 23 Haida on the Queen Charlotte Islands, and it was 24 successful, and so the -- it was not used for a period 25 of time until later events evolved with different 26 players. In this case it's the warrior Nekt who is 27 warring, primarily with Gitamaat, but also with the 28 Nishga, and in terms of the timing of these events, I 29 know that there is one adaawk that has -- the first 30 one in brackets after the death of Nekt, but it's in 31 square brackets, which indicates the inserting of 32 opinion by the person doing the translating. All the 33 other accounts of the death of Nekt say that he was 34 shot in the back of the leg with an arrow in the 35 Nishga area by Laxpilix, L-A-X-P-I-L-I-X of the House 36 of Xstiiyaox, X-S-T-I-I-Y-A-O-X, and in one of these 37 accounts it's clearly stated by the informant in a way 38 that other informants used the same statement. This 39 took place while we were still at Gitwilaxgyap, 40 G-I-T-W-I-L-A-X-G-Y-A-P. Now, Gitwilaxgyap was the 41 village that was abandoned -- that was destroyed and 42 abandoned as a result of the volcano, so these -- 43 these events that take place with Nekt precede the 44 volcanic eruption, according to the sequencing in the 45 adaawk. They're also compatible with MacDonald's 46 range of dates for the occupation of the T'a'oots'ip, 47 since he doesn't -- well, I'll get to that later. 17228 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 Q 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 A 20 21 22 23 24 Q 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 35 36 37 38 39 MR. GRANT 40 41 42 43 44 THE COURT 45 MR. GRANT 46 Q 47 A Can I refer you to page -- page 52 in the middle paragraph, which you talk about: \"In times of attack the Western Gitksan had always retreated to their most defensible point, the T'a'oots'ip, or the fortress, at Battle Hill. This had been a place of retreat as far back as the disbursal and then again for the Gitanyaaw' when they were defeated by the Laxwiiyip. With the threat of an all out attack by the Haida, it was made ready, although never used. But it was the threat from the Gitamaat that gave the T'a'oots'ip such a crucial place in Gitksan history.\" And that's -- that's what you've been describing, but that's your conclusion as to the T'a'oots'ip longevity? Yes. And there are other villages with the similar types of places that they sometimes called fortified places. They're on either high cliff areas or an island in the middle of rivers, and in this case it's the natural outcropping above the river. Now, you go on to refer extensively, through an adaawk example of Arthur Mowatt, as to the description of events, and then you return to Fred Johnson, Lelt, and page 59, my lord, where he talks about -- Fred Johnson talks about the same thing, that is that you've just described, that the Battle Hill was built by the Frog tribe from Gitluusek in preparation for the Haida war? That's right. And then you go on to describe that? This is -- this is the time with the threats from down river that were causing Gitluusek and Gitluudahlxw to be endangered. This is the time that people moved up to the T'a'oots'ip for protection, and gitluusek and Gitluudahlxw were gradually abandoned. Well, actually -- yes, Antgesees(?) also. : Now, you've described about Nekt, you've referred his lordship to the different descriptions of Nekt, and in fact the death of Nekt, and from the oral histories, where and when would Nekt have -- did you determine that Nekt would have died? : You mean when Nekt died, did you say? When did Nekt die? I just described that. 17229 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 Q 2 A 3 4 THE COURT 5 MR. GRANT 6 Q 7 8 A 9 10 THE COURT 11 A 12 THE COURT 13 A 14 MR. GRANT 15 Q 16 17 A 18 THE COURT 19 A 20 THE COURT 21 A 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 THE COURT 31 32 MR. GRANT 33 Q 34 A 35 36 Q 37 38 39 A 40 MR. WILLM 41 42 43 44 MR. GRANT 45 46 47 THE COURT I'm sorry. In terms of the timing prior to the volcano eruption on the Nass. Do we know when the volcano was? have you a sense The conservative or minus 130. Yes. Maybe that's the step which of when the volcano was? There are a number of opinions opinion of Clague is 250, plus Before present? Before present. What is it again? 250 plus or minus 130. Now, there is -- there is reference and a description of the volcano in the adaawk; is that right? Very detailed references, yes. : Okay. Which village was it? G-I-T-W-I-L-A-X-G-Y-A-P. : And where is that? There's -- it's in the general -- I'm afraid I'm not very good at picturing specific geographies. They describe in their adaawk and geologists have since described the way the river has since been moved, so there was a lake that was -- they said had a strong unpleasant odour, and it was destroyed by the lava flow, and the river that they used to call Caribou River was moved, and they call that new water Seax, and so it was in that general area. : I'm sorry, I don't know what the general area is though. Yeah. Just in terms of if you were to drive there? Oh, in the overall Aiyansh territory close to the village of Aiyansh. If you drive north from Terrace on the road that goes up to Aiyansh you go to a lava flow area near the Nass, and that's the area you're talking about? Yes. 3: My lord, that lava flow has been dated by witnesses in this trial for the plaintiff. It's in the 1700's. I can't remember if it's 1770, but it's been dated by witnesses for the plaintiff already. : Yeah. My note of it was, although I couldn't find the reference, if you want to refer to it, it was around 1730. : You say 1730? 17230 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. THE MR. THE THE WILLMS: I can't -- my friend might be right. It's somewhere, I can't remember if it's first half or second half. COURT: All right. GRANT: Q In fact, I think my friend may have even conceded the point. Just one question, if 1730 -- if it's in the range of the first half of the eighteenth century, is that consistent with what you concluded in terms of the sequencing of Nekt of this era? A Yes. Q And that he died before that volcano erupted? A That's correct. GRANT: Thank you. COURT: All right. Two o'clock, please. How much longer are you going to be, Mr. Grant? I can certainly -- as you can see, I'm almost half-way through the second volume in 45 minutes, and I'm endeavouring to reduce. I'm hoping that I will be completed by no later than three o'clock. If we commence at two that's my hope. COURT: Thank you. REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court stands adjourned until two o'clock. (LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT TAKEN AT 12:30) I hereby certify the foregoing to be a true and accurate transcript of the proceedings herein transcribed to the best of my skill and ability MR. THE MR. GRANT Graham D. Parker Official Reporter United Reporting Service Ltd. 17231 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT) THE COURT: Mr. Grant. MR. GRANT: Volume 2 of the report, please. Referring you now to page 69 of your report. THE COURT: 69? MR. GRANT: Yes. Volume 2, my lord. THE COURT: Yes. MR. GRANT: Q At the bottom of 69 you state, Ms. Marsden, that: \"Once the threat of attacks diminished -- \" Just one moment. \" -- people gradually began to regroup and by the early 1800's the Village of Gitwingax was founded. The first location where a number of Houses established themselves temporarily was below the T'a'oots'ip, along the creek, where they built, and appear to have lived, in their smokehouses.\" Now, are these smokehouses referred to in the adaawk as smokehouses for fishing? A Yes. Q And then you have -- I should say the adaawk in the Barbeau microfilm and Duff files, and then you have \"There were 11 smokehouses\" and you referred to there were eleven chiefs, and in brackets you have the clans and that listing is from the Duff files, and do you recognize those as chiefs presently who are presently in Gitwingax? There is one name there that I don't recognize. The Ludaxat. L-u-d-a-x-a-t, the last one. Then 'Wii Xskiik. Those two with now. But the rest -- the rest are all chiefs and Siiyeltxw, number ten, is in the same as Lelt, same group as Lelt. Okay. And 'Wii Xskiik is W-i-i, one word, X-s-k-i-i-k. Siiyeltxw, number ten, is S-i-i-y-e-1-t-x-w. Ludaxat is L-u-d-a-x-a-t. Now, then you say -- after going to that you say: \"Again indigenous Gitksan control is indicated by the fact that Hlengwax and Axgoot represent the only unamalgamated coastal groups in this list. A Q A Other than that you -- names I am not familiar 17232 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 In addition crucial fishing technology was 2 controlled by 'Wii Xskiik --\" 3 4 The spelling I already gave, 5 6 \" \u00E2\u0080\u0094 Gook, Lelt and Alaist.\" 7 8 Now, what are you referring to there, those two 9 sentences? Why do you say that indigenous Gitksan 10 control? 11 A Well, those are the chiefs' names that were there 12 prior to the influences of the -- of the downriver -- 13 downriver Frog Clan through Kitselas. 14 Q Okay. That is all of the chiefs except Hlengwax and 15 Axgoot? 16 A That's right. 17 Q Then you refer to them moving to the -- near the 18 present site of Gitwingax, and that the village had to 19 be -- they built there had to be abandoned because of 20 river erosion, and this would have been the Skeena 21 River, is that right? 22 A Yes. This is in the area of the present Gitwingax 23 village now. 24 Q Okay. And then you describe it and you refer -- and 25 Duff takes from Barbeau the description, and I take it 26 on that page 71 those names would reflect houses? 27 A Yes. 28 Q House locations? 29 A Yes. 30 Q Then you state: 31 32 \"The new villages reflected the new balance. The 33 designation of Houses as royal was no longer 34 relevant. Houses were ranked in the indigenous 35 Gitksan manner.\" 36 37 What are you referring to there when you say the 38 indigenous Gitksan manner? 39 A Well, the houses were -- there was -- there were 40 leading houses and there were houses that were not 41 leading houses, but there was not a royal class within 42 the house groups. 43 Q I refer you to -- I refer you to the top of the next 44 page, and, my lord, I am not going to read this 45 paragraph, but I'd ask you to note it on the top of 46 page 72. In this paragraph and on this page you are 47 referring to that distinction in more detail, is that 17233 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 right? 2 A Yes. I'm describing the influences on the western 3 Gitksan from the downriver peoples. 4 Q Okay. So at this stage, then, in time span we not 5 only have those villages that you have described 6 existed at the time of the downfall of Temlaxham, but 7 at this later stage we have the founding of Gitwangak 8 as we know it today, that is at the present location? 9 A That's right. That's -- that is now added to the list 10 of Gitksan villages as we know them today. 11 Q Okay. 12 A At this time. 13 Q I'd refer you to -- I am referring you to chapter 14 seven, the border pressures on the north, and can you 15 just -- you commence with the Raven Clan of Laxwiiyip. 16 Now, here you have a fairly large time span, 4000 BP 17 to 300 BP on the heading. And of course overlap with 18 things that you have already talked about because we 19 have come up much more recently. Can you just explain 20 what you are dealing with in this chapter for his 21 lordship? 22 A These were events that took place in the north. There 23 were indications of where they fit in the chronology, 24 but I didn't feel comfortable placing them there 25 definitively, so I put them in this chapter with my 26 opinions as to the probable time period that they 27 would have fit. 28 Q Okay. Now, is this where you are dealing with the 29 wars with -- wars between the Tsetsaut and the 30 Kitwancool? 31 A Yes. 32 Q Okay. Can you tell his lordship how that sequence 33 works from your analysis of the adaawk? 34 A Well, there are two major wars, if you want to call 35 them wars. They involve two separate groups of 36 people. The first one takes place between the Frog 37 Clan of Kitwancool, Luxoon, and his Tsetsaut relatives 38 to the north, and escalates to become a major war in 39 which the Gitanyaaw', G-i-t-a-n-y-a-a-w-', are reduced 40 in numbers, significantly reduced in numbers. And 41 then there is a period of time that elapses and in a 42 recent period there is a second outbreak of 43 hostilities between -- it's actually not between 44 Kitwancool and the Tsetsaut. The Kitwancool get 45 accidentally brought into hostilities between the 46 Nisga who are their -- their -- with whom they have 47 alliances and the Tsetsaut and as a result of that the 17234 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 Q 4 5 6 7 A 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 24 25 26 A 27 Q 28 29 A 30 Q 31 32 33 34 A 35 Q 36 37 A 38 ] MR. GRANT 39 Q 40 41 42 43 44 45 A 46 47 Kitwancool become involved in a second series of hostilities which end sometime in the mid 1800s. Now, I may have missed this, Ms. Marsden, but in relation to what you were talking about earlier about Gitank'aat and Gitluusek, is the first wars, when were they in relation to that? Yes, the first -- the first series of hostilities are at a time the Kitwancool are attacked and decimated. And then the neighbouring villages of Gitsegukla and Gitluusek come to their assistance, and they fight back against the Tsetsaut. And so with the reference in several of the adaawk about this war to Gitluusek, I have placed it during the time before Battle Hill. Before the move to Battle Hill, pardon me. Before the move to Battle Hill in the Nekt period. And so that would be -- It's prior to the Nekt sequence. So that would be in the area of in the pre 1550's? No, no. Nekt isn't that old. Okay. It's pre-Nekt, not pre Battle Hill? That's correct. All right. Okay. Now, you describe in this chapter these two series of wars. Yesterday you had talked about, if you may recall, a migration, an earlier migration of Luxoon. You recall giving that evidence? Yes. Is these two wars you're talking about here both subsequent to that? Yes. They involve those people in the first case. Okay. As well -- as part of the adaawk in the material you relied on do you rely on the Luxoon adaawk that you referred to yesterday in analysing this area? Yes. And did you also rely and refer to the \"Histories, Territories and Laws of the Kitwancool\"? Yes. : That's Exhibit 448, my lord. And I would just like to refer you to Exhibit 1042, which us your prime document book. I believe it's in front of you, and refer you to tab number 14, which is entitled \"Historical Story of the Totem Poles of the Clan of the Wolves, Kitwancool Village.\" Do you recognize that document? Yes. This is the typed account of the chiefs who gave their adaawk to form the \"Histories, Territories and Laws of the Kitwancool,\" and it was prepared by a 17235 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. MR. Q A A Q A woman by the name of McKilvington. She was the secretarial person who was the wife of the teacher in Kitwancool at the time, and the translator at the time was Constance Cox. And it was those people who prepared this and this is what Duff used to write \"Histories -- \" well, basically he stuck fairly close to the text that he received to publish \"Histories, Territories and Laws of the Kitwancool.\" And where did this -- where did you locate this document from? Where was it? This is in the Duff files. These are in the Duff files in the centre that -- these are his personal files. Okay. Those were part of the files that you looked at as well? Yes. Those files you looked at as well? Yes. To a lesser extent than the other, but not in the case of this. That typed catalog number, I believe, has been added subsequently, my lord, on the title page. And this document, did this typescript of the \"Historical Story of the Clan of the Wolves of Kitwancool,\" did this draft assist you, further assist you in the dating or the sequencing of this period, the two wars that you've been referring to? Yes, it did. Okay. I'd ask that that document be marked as the next exhibit, my lord, on the basis it's one of the documents the witness relied and it's a draft of Exhibit 448. WILLMS: My lord, the problem with that is that I don't see it listed in her bibliography and I saw it for the first time when my friend was kind enough to give us this material. So my objection is that if it is something that she referred to and relied on in her report, it's too late to disclose it now. If it isn't, we have already got the Territory Laws of the Kitwancool then and this is really unnecessary. It is important to put it in, my lord. My friends, of course, put in Exhibit 448, you may recall, the histories. Yes. It's not as if it was yesterday. 448, that would have been a year ago. It's during the evidence of Solomon Marsden. It wasn't quite a year ago. It was over a year ago, I believe. A GRANT MR. GRANT THE COURT MR. GRANT THE COURT MR. GRANT 17236 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 THE COURT 2 MR. GRANT 3 THE COURT 4 5 MR. GRANT 6 THE COURT 7 MR. GRANT 8 9 THE COURT 10 11 MR. GRANT 12 THE COURT 13 14 MR. GRANT 15 THE COURT 16 MR. GRANT 17 18 19 20 21 THE COURT 22 23 MR. GRANT 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 THE COURT 38 39 MR. GRANT 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 THE COURT 47 I don't know Was it? Yes, my lord. I think we -- I haven't the document in front of me. what you are talking about, do I? Exhibit 448? Yes. Exhibit 448 is the history -- is the orange-covered book, the \"Histories -- \" Oh, yes. I have it somewhere, yes. But what is it \u00E2\u0080\u0094 I am sorry, my lord. This is -- 448, you are asking for something else to go in. I don't know what that is. Okay. This is Exhibit 1042, tab 14. Tab 14. All right. This is listed in the plaintiffs' list of documents, I believe it is -- well, I think it's 3271, which I think we listed to them, I won't say two years ago, because it might be slightly less, but it was certainly a long, long, long time ago. Well, on what basis does it go in? Are you seeking to have it go in as evidence? As one of the -- this is one of the documents the witness says that as well as the \"Histories, Territories and Laws\" she relied upon this document as well and in terms of her sequencing and it's one of the basis upon which she made -- formed her opinion. This, of course, my lord, is what it is is it's a -- it's in fact the more -- if one may say in some ways probably the more accurate transcription of the histories, territories and laws as the witness has explained the sequencing. The chiefs told the adaawk including the deceased chiefs that are listed here, Fred Good and others, told this adaawk to this woman who typescript it and sent it to Duff who later published \"Histories, Territories and Laws.\" Well, I take it that the best that can be said for it was that it was found in the Duff papers, is it? It's part of the Duff files. It's a draft -- the witness has explained what it is. It's a draft of histories, territories and laws, but it's the one -- it's the interview, it's the transcript or the typescript from the woman who was present during the interviews with these chiefs who are deceased. And it relates to the oral histories. Well, there is no authentication here in any way, is there? I mean, you know, it doesn't even know who the 17237 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 MR. GRANT 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 THE COURT 13 14 MR. GRANT 15 16 17 18 THE COURT 19 20 MR. GRANT 21 22 23 THE COURT 24 MR. GRANT 25 26 27 28 29 THE COURT 30 31 MR. GRANT 32 33 THE COURT 34 MR. GRANT 35 THE COURT 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 MR. GRANT 43 44 THE COURT 45 MR. GRANT 46 Q 47 informants were. Yes, my lord. The last page of the document, if you look at the last page it shows -- and in fact there is this in this type -- it is a typescript, but there is sections where some of them have signed: \"These are now the Signatures of all these chiefs who have been responsible for the telling of these histories.\" And then the names are listed down. What's the difference between this and what Duff published? Well, I believe in certain parts there is a difference in the ordering here in terms of inserts. This was a draft of what he had published, but this was the material that was delivered to him. See, whatever he published at least had his imprimatur. This doesn't. But this has -- but, my lord, the \"Histories, Territories and Laws\" has -- it's not Duff's, I think that \u00E2\u0080\u0094 It's \u00E2\u0080\u0094 -- that document has got in at the end of it. It's the chiefs who sign and above this and the introduction to the \"Histories, Territories and Laws\" are that the chiefs approved the histories, territories and laws. Who is the author of the \"Histories, Territories and Laws of the Gitksan\"? Well, I -- I would say that the author of that, the substance of it, of the adaawk is the chiefs. Who's the editor of it? The editor is Duff. Yes. All right. So Duff at least has put his name to it as a trained researcher and is prepared to publish it under his name. Now, this may have been the source of information, but unless the two are the same, in which case there would be no point in putting it in, there is always the risk, is there not, that Duff rejected some of this? Well, maybe I'll proceed with the groundwork here, my lord. All right. Can you -- are you aware of the circumstances surrounding the creation of this in relation to the 1723? S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. THE MR. THE THE THE MR. THE MR. THE circumstances surrounding the creation of the \"Histories, Territories -- \" WILLMS: I object. That's hearsay. How can she know what the circumstances surrounding -- this document says right on it when it was created. It's created a long time before Ms. Marsden comes on the scene and she wasn't around when Duff wrote Territories, Laws, etc. COURT: Well \u00E2\u0080\u0094 WILLMS: I object. COURT: Does -- do you say, Ms. Marsden, that you -- that you relied on this as part of the evidentiary basis for your report? In terms of the sequencing of the Tsetsaut wars, this was -- this was particularly useful in clearing up a problem that I had with histories, territories and laws . So you depended upon this to reach your conclusions? Yes. Well, it seems to me that it can go in on that limited basis, Mr. Grant. And anything else seems to me to be far too much difficulty and I think it only goes in there for that limited basis. Yes. It can be marked on that premise. Thank you, my lord. A COURT A COURT GRANT COURT GRANT REGISTRAR: 1042-14, MR. GRANT: Q A Q A A Q (EXHIBIT 1042-14: Document entitled \"Historical Story of the Totem Poles of the Clan of the Wolves, Kitwancool Village\") Can you refer to that and just refer his lordship, I believe, to the pages where that is dealt with, that what you relied upon in this draft, not in your report but in the Exhibit 1042-14, and I would refer you to page 34. On page 34 it says at the end of the second paragraph: \"Insert here\" after the bracketed comments above it and then further on it gives the insertion. Is that a page 37? Which is halfway down page 37. And it says \"insert in original story of history.\" I am sorry, that -- there is a numbered 37 after that and it seems at the page between 36 and 37? The first page 37. Okay. 17239 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 THE COURT 2 3 4 A 5 THE COURT 6 MR. GRANT 7 Q 8 9 10 11 12 A 13 Q 14 15 16 17 18 A 19 Q 20 21 22 23 24 25 A 26 27 Q 28 A 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 Q 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A On page 34 it says \"insert here\" and below that the next line it says \"insert, are talking about? That's yet another insert. It's a different one? Is that not the insert we And then on that halfway down that page it says: \"Page one, History of the next meeting with the Sikanni people\"? Yes. And that goes on for several pages. It says: \"Insert in Original Story of History,\" Is that what you are referring to? Yes. It goes on to page 43. Now, you are aware from the reading of the adaawk, and I am referring you to page 88 of your report of -- you talk about the Stimlaxyip, S-t-i-m-1-a-x-y-i-p, the people who live underground, and sequentially where does this section -- does this fit into what you have been describing in terms of the history? Well, it's in the quote that I give of the adaawk here in Simon Gunanoot's account on page 89 -- Yes. -- he refers to the people at Galdo which would indicate, since this is obviously not a very ancient adaawk, that it doesn't mean the old ancient Village of Galdo before Gitangasx, so this means after the abandonment of Gitangasx. However, there are other accounts that -- a number of them actually that say that it took place both while they were at Gitangasx and while they were -- and then -- no, while they were at Gitangasx and as a result of that they left Gitangasx and moved to Galdo. Can you refer to page 95. You state that: \"Although Simon Gunanoot refers to the people of Galdo'o, other versions indicate that these events began when they were still living at Gitangasx and ended after they had moved to Galdo'o.\" You then refer to John Brown and quote from the John Brown adaawk. A And so the indications are that this did take place 17240 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 Q 5 A 6 MR. GRANT 7 8 THE COURT 9 MR. GRANT 10 Q 11 12 13 14 15 16 A 17 18 Q 19 20 A 21 22 Q 23 24 25 26 A 27 Q 28 29 30 A 31 Q 32 33 A 34 35 36 Q 37 A 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A prior to the abandonment of Gitangasx, but at the very least it took place prior to the Nisga wars, because the Galdo was abandoned after the wars of the Nisga. And is this the wars that involved Suu wii gos? Yes. : That's been given in the evidence of Mary McKenzie, my lord. : Yes. And at the end of page 96 you refer to David Gunanoot and the departure of Niikyap from Gitangasx in his evidence. And as I recall, that was in the time of his grandfather, the late David Gunanoot's grandfather, if I recall rightly, he gave in Commission Evidence? These were his relatives' departure from Gitangasx where they were the last people to leave Gitangasx. So in terms of our timing of these major events, the Suu wii gos wars you view as relatively recent? That's right. Probably -- well, I'll come back to it when we deal with the Nisga wars. Okay. You then go on page 98 -- 97 to 104 and you talk about the inland people to the northeast. Now, here you are referring, as I recall, to the Meluulek, major events of Meluulek, is that right? That's right. And you've described in pages 97 through 103 those -- you've taken excerpts from the adaawk and described that event? Yes. And in terms of the relationship of sequencing that you have done, where do you place these events? These wars were particularly difficult because they involve people to the east and I chose to not to come to conclusions, very firm conclusions about this. About the timing of them? That's right. Okay. They appear to be recent. Okay. Now, on chapter eight you referred to trade and the fur trade 200 years before the present to one hundred years before the present and you commence by talking about the Nisga and the Nass harbour. Now, here you're talking -- can you just tell us about what you're referring to here and what was happening around this period of time? Well, the Maritime fur trade began around 1790 and 17241 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 although it didn't end when the fort was established 2 on the Nass in 18 -- in 1831, it did become a 3 different form of trade as soon as the fort became a 4 focus for the furs. So the early period of this is 5 the Maritime fur trade. And a lot of the ships -- 6 well, the harbour of the Nass was one of the main 7 stopping areas for the ships during this time and the 8 Nisga were extremely interested in getting access to 9 as many quality furs as possible as a result. 10 Q What do the oral histories tell about that and what 11 occurred as a result of this? 12 A Well, the Nisga became involved in a feuding with the 13 group of Saniik at Portland Canal. This is where he 14 reappears in history and as a result the Nisga are 15 trying to force them to trade with them at their -- at 16 their -- on their terms. And as a result there are 17 people killed and Saniik moves over towards Meziadin 18 Lake and doesn't return. And if you look at the quote 19 on page a hundred and -- 112. 20 Q Yes. 21 A It's -- the person speaking is -- starts on page 111: 22 23 \"According to Lt. Col. Scott of the U.S. army in 24 his survey of the Indian groups along the S.E. 25 Alaskan border with B.C. for the American 26 government in 1867:\" 27 28 He says: 29 30 \"'There is a tribe of about 200 souls now 31 living on a Westerly branch of the Nass near 32 the Stikine River. They are called 'Lak we 33 ieps' and formerly lived on Portland. 34 Channel. They moved away in consequence of 35 an unsuccessful war with the Nass, and now 36 trade exclusively with the Stikeen. The 37 Hudson's Bay Company is making strong 38 efforts to reconcile the feud in order to 39 receive their trade.'\" 40 41 So this indicates the time period, the range of time 42 that this takes place. The second thrust of their 43 hostilities are towards the Gitksan. They attack the 44 Village of Kuldo and \u00E2\u0080\u0094 45 Q This is the \u00E2\u0080\u0094 46 A This is the Nisga? 47 Q Yes. 17242 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 A 2 3 4 Q 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 THE COURT 31 MR. GRANT 32 Q 33 A 34 THE COURT 35 A 36 MR. GRANT 37 Q 38 39 40 41 42 43 A 44 THE COURT 45 MR. GRANT 46 THE COURT 47 A And that is referred to on page 115 in an article by Jenness called \"The Yukon Telegraph.\" And he was up there and he comments on the war that they have there. And he refers to -- in that quote that you have, he refers to: \"The deserted village of Old Kuldo, which was the goal of our trip, has an interesting history. During the first half the nineteenth century, and probably for generations before that time, it was an intermediate station on a native trading route that led from the mouth of the Nass river to Kisgagas.... The Kuldo people tried to levy tribute on the traders (from the Nass) who passed their doors, and aroused so much ill-will that the Nass Indians attacked their village.\" That was one of the -- that's consistent with your sequencing? That's right. That's right. Go ahead. And then -- and the sequence of the attack on Kuldo and the attack on Kispiox isn't clear, but in Martha Brown's evidence she talks about the people of Kispiox retreating to their fort or fortified place, which is an island, and she talks -- she dates that in terms of her own experience with an old woman when she was a young girl who was born during that time period. So it's around 1810 that the Nisga attacked the Kispiox. : Is that mentioned in your text somewhere? Is the Martha Brown reference -- Yes. : Yes. I think so. I think it is, my lord. I just -- In Martha Brown's Commission Evidence, my lord, she referred to a woman who when she was 12, was a certain age about when she died, and it would bring it -- I believe it would bring it to around you said 1820. Would it be around 1810 or 1820? That's right. I am just wondering where I should cross-index it -- Yes. -- in my report. We are flying so fast through the centuries here I get 17243 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 MR. GRANT 3 Q 4 5 6 A 7 Q 8 9 THE COURT 10 11 A 12 THE COURT 13 A 14 THE COURT 15 16 A 17 THE COURT 18 A 19 MR. GRANT 20 Q 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 A 29 Q 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 A 37 Q 38 A 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 dizzy with the speed of it. There is -- on page 127 there is a reference to the Kispiox wars or at least the peace settlement. Do you have that? Sorry. Page 127, would that be -- talking about the peace settlement as described by John Brown, but it's -- : Well, it says above it wasn't until 1860 that peace was established in Nisga on the Kisgegas? That's right. : We are talking about Kispiox? Yes. This is the Kisgegas. : You think the Nisga attack on Kisgegas was around 1810? That's correct. I know it's in here somewhere. : That's good enough. Thank you. Sorry. Now, you also in this section of your report on page 120 you refer -- you state in the middle there between two quotes: \"It was also Skat'iin -- \" And he's the Nisga, one of the Nisga chiefs involved in these wars, is that right? That's right. He's in the Wolf Clan. \" -- who attacked the Fireweed at Anlagasemdeex.\" Skat'iin is S-k-a-t-'-i-i-n and Anlagasemdeex is A-n-1-a-g underlined a-s-e-m-d-e-e-x. Anlagasemdeex, is that in the area of Kisgagas? Yes. Okay. And this -- this is a really interesting quote, because it indicates the nature of trade relations. You basically established a connection with another group or related house of your own clan and another and you had an agreement to trade exclusively with them. And so when the people from inland were going to the Nass for their oolichan fishing or on trading trips, the Nisga people during this time period would also try and force them to form a relationship with them so that they could trade, and that's what he's 17244 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 referring to here at the bottom of page 120: 2 3 \"A member of the House of Laan.... went to the 4 Nass River in order to trade among the Nisga. 5 While he was there, he was killed, probably 6 because it was habitual among them that if they 7 invited you and you did not come, it was 8 considered quite an insult to them and they killed 9 the offender.\" 10 11 Q After that quote you state that you describe it -- 12 summarize your conclusions from that kind of 13 description that you have just described: 14 15 \"The villages at the mouth of the Nass claimed the 16 right to entertain foreign visitors and to expect 17 certain trade privileges in return for their 18 hospitality. Any refusal to be entertained by 19 them was a refusal to accept their control of the 20 trade within their borders and the penalty was 21 death. But the Nisga wanted it both ways, control 22 in their own domain and free reign in their 23 neighbours.\" 24 25 Is that your conclusion about this era of time and 2 6 what was happening? 27 A Yes. It's a brief period, but it was very -- appears 28 to have been very intense. 29 Q Now, Ms. Marsden, I'd like to take you -- to move 30 through page 129. I believe if I recall rightly, this 31 is the last principal section of the report in terms 32 of your sequencing, and you are talking here about 33 Legyeex and the Skeena River trade. On page 130 you 34 refer to a description by Harriet Hudson and you state 35 at the top of the page: 36 37 \"Legyeex had feuded intermittently and 38 unsuccessfully with his clan brothers, the Eagles 39 of Gitxoon, in an attempt to break their hold on 40 the upriver trade. Now, in the mid to late 19th 41 century, they again sought greater access. 42 According to Harriet Hudson of Gitsalasxw, they 43 sought: 44 'to have the priviledge of trading with the 45 upper Skeena tribes and the Hagwilget tribe. 46 It was from these people that the most 47 important skins or hides of moose and 17245 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 cariboo were obtained.\" 2 3 And then you go -- then she goes on, I should say, to 4 describe Legyeex's planning of a surprise attack on 5 Kitselas. Now, could you just maybe describe what -- 6 for his lordship what this section is about of your 7 report and how it fits into what you have thus far 8 described about the chron -- the history of the 9 Gitksan? 10 A Well, this is the last incident of hostilities between 11 Gitsalasxw and the Gispaxloots, G-i-s-p-a-x-1-o-o-t-s, 12 of Legyeex, and it ends with a forced -- in a sense 13 forced peace ceremony between all of the Gitsalasxw 14 and Legyeex people in Kitwanga. 15 Q Is that referred to by Ms. Hudson on page 131 of your 16 quote? 17 A Yes. Well, what happens is they are there and there 18 is an altercation over a trade incident over a slave 19 woman and the -- the Kitwanga people, the chiefs have 20 to intercede in order to make peace, and at the end of 21 it - it's a very long account - peaceful trading 22 relations are established. And the inter-weaving of 23 information to date, this account is extremely 24 interesting, because the woman slave that Legyeex 25 wanted to buy was a Tsetsaut woman from the Saniik 26 group. And the Kitwancool took her as a slave after 27 the last wars they had with the Tsetsaut but before 2 8 the peace ceremony and they brought her down to 29 Kitwanga to trade her. Legyeex ended up after this 30 peace ceremony that he had with the Gitsalasxw people, 31 he took him -- her down to his daughter to celebrate 32 her 12th birthday. And during that ceremony it was 33 when Duncan had just arrived at Fort Simpson and 34 Duncan was ringing the school bell. And during that 35 ceremony he rang the school bell and Legyeex was 36 furious and went to kill him. And Arthur Wellington 37 Claw, who was the Tsimshian person teaching Duncan how 38 to speak Tsimshian, saved Duncan and later Legyeex was 39 converted and this woman moved with him and his 40 daughter to Metlakatla and married a white person by 41 the name of John Spencer. And her name appears -- her 42 name was Tatalama and it appears through a number of 43 different accounts. And since Duncan arrived in Fort 44 Simpson in 1857 and left for Metlakatla in 1863, that 45 places all of the events involving this woman upriver 46 prior to that time. 47 Q And can you give a spelling for her name, please? 17246 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 A T-a-t-a-1-a-m-a. 2 THE COURT: G-a-t \u00E2\u0080\u0094 3 A T-a-t-a-1-a-m-a. 4 MR. GRANT: 5 Q Now, that brief overview of this woman's travels, if 6 one may say, through this historical period, that is a 7 compilation from many of the sources that you've 8 looked at, is that right? 9 A I think there were five separate sources among the 10 adaawk and others among the accounts of Duncan. 11 MR. GRANT: Okay. My lord, I was going to have Ms. Marsden 12 give some detail about the Harriet Hudson account, but 13 I'll just highlight it for your lordship. I don't 14 want to go through it in further detail. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 MR. GRANT: But that's the account that starts at 130 and ends 17 at 136 and Ms. Marsden's conclusions relating to that 18 are on page 136. 19 Q And if you -- I will just refer you to it, Ms. 20 Marsden. You say that: 21 22 \"Here we see the full force of the Gitwingax 23 chiefs brought to bear on the Tsimshian and the 24 Gitsalasxw. Their unstated assertion of power is 25 quite clear: it is not for foreign groups to 26 determine who has trade rights among the Gitksan. 27 The Gitksan welcomed these foreign leaders as 2 8 traders among whom they themselves would pick and 29 choose. However, Gitxoon and Legyeex continued 30 within their own frame of reference to jockey for 31 power, and later, Legyeex, this time through 32 feasting proclaimed his exclusive right to claim 33 beyond Gitwingax.\" 34 35 Now, is he referring there to trading upriver of 36 Gitwangak or down when you say beyond Gitwangak? 37 A He's upriver. 38 Q Okay. 39 A What they call the upper Skeena, the Gitanmaax 40 primarily and Hagwilget. That's what Legyeex was 41 primarily interested in. This --. Oh, go ahead. 42 Sorry. 43 Q You go on then to describe further the history of this 44 era and then at page -- page 141, my lord, you state 45 that: 46 47 \"Legyeex remained angry that the trading 17247 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 A 17 Q 18 19 A 20 Q 21 22 23 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 Q 38 39 40 A 41 Q 42 THE COURT 43 44 A 45 46 THE COURT 47 MR. GRANT privileges he considered to be exclusive had been usurped. He also discovered that his other rivals, the Gitxahla of Tsiibasaa, had travelled upriver to trade among the Gitksan. Legyeex attacked the Gitxahla but was unsuccessful. In a final bid for control, for the exclusive privilege he considered his own, Legyeex planned to attack the Gitksan and subdue them, so that, thereafter, they would refuse to trade any group other than his own.\" And then you go on to describe a plan of Legyeex and actually his execution of a plan to attack Kispiox and he did attack Kispiox and the Gitksan people, the Gitksan villages downriver, didn't he? Yes. He burned Kispiox to the ground. And that's described in the John Tate version of that adaawk that you've quoted extensively? That's right. Now, in terms of who this particular Legyeex was who attacked Kispiox and Gitanmaax, have you been able to come to any conclusions of that in terms of the sequencing of Legyeex, if I may say? Well, at the end of that quote on page 147 -- Yes. -- it says: The Gispaxloots had become less active, as Legyeex was afraid of the reprisals of the Upper Skeena people, who were still hostile to him and his tribe. Legyeex and most of his tribe had now become a part of Mr. Wm. Duncan's flock, having moved to Metlakatla from Port Simpson.\" So this is the -- this is the Legyeex that becomes converted. And was that consistent with other versions that you have or other adaawk and other -- that you have read with respect to this? Yes. Okay. : When did you think it was that Legyeex burned, attacked and burned Kispiox? Well, it had to be before 1860, because that's the approximate -- he was converted between 1857 and 1863. : Thank you. : Now, my lord, I have a few other questions of the 1724? S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 Q 3 4 5 6 A 7 Q 8 9 A 10 Q 11 12 13 14 THE COURT: 15 MR. GRANT: 16 THE COURT: 17 MR. GRANT: 18 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 23 24 25 26 THE COURT: 27 MR. GRANT: 28 29 THE COURT: 30 MR. GRANT: 31 Q 32 A 33 Q 34 35 36 37 38 A 39 Q 40 41 42 43 A 44 Q 45 46 47 MR. WILLMS witness. I am completed with your report. And in -- when you complete that description of the -- what we have gone up to historically now, that is the completion of your analysis of the historical overview of the Gitksan? Yes. And the cultural overview of the development of cultural aspects? Yes. Okay. Now, I would just like to refer you for a moment to another exhibit. I am referring to Exhibit 358-22, my lord, and this is an exhibit that was put in evidence with Mr. Morrell. 358-22? 358-22. Yes. It is from the map at last. It is map 22 of the fishing sites. Now, you recognize that? Yes. I am also going to refer you, for example, to Exhibit 8, which was initially introduced at the time of Ms. McKenzie's evidence, Chief Gyolugyet, and was proven through Marvin George. Do you recognize that map of the fishing sites at Kuldo? That's Exhibit 8? Exhibit 8, my lord. That was over a year ago, my lord. Two years ago. Over two years, yes. Yes. Now, in the evidence of Mr. Morrell, he indicated that he was involved in the preparation of this map 22. He also indicated that he worked in conjunction with you with respect to certain aspects of this map, is that correct? Yes. Now, the other day you indicated that you had compiled or had a -- had somebody working under your direction compile the sources and different information relating to the fishing sites. Do you recall that? That's right. And would one of the sources that they -- that were compiled in order to assist in putting this together be Exhibit 8? : I object. How does this witness know that? She 17249 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 didn't compile it. It was another witness that -- 2 another person that -- 3 MR. GRANT: Well, I'll lead \u00E2\u0080\u0094 4 MR. WILLMS: Well, how about laying the foundation then. 5 MR. GRANT: 6 Q Did you review the material that was compiled and go 7 over that material in your work with Mr. Morrell? 8 A I began the project of compiling the information that 9 was available that had already been collected for the 10 fishing sites and when it proved to be very 11 time-consuming, somebody was hired to assist me and he 12 worked on it for a period of time and then I completed 13 it. And it was this compilation of source of 14 information that was part of what was used. 15 Q And you are familiar with the material that you 16 compiled; you know what it was? 17 A Yes. I couldn't list it off the top of my head. 18 But \u00E2\u0080\u0094 19 Q No. It did include a copy of map eight -- of Exhibit 20 8, I should say, that Kuldo map? 21 A Yes. 22 Q In this court case Gwaans, Olive Ryan, Gwis gyen, 23 Stanley Williams, and Antgulilbix, Mary Johnson, all 24 have referred to fishing site maps. My lord, the maps 25 that are pulled are not the exact ones. I believe 26 they are in Exhibits 17 and 19, if I remember 27 correctly. And these were fishing site maps of the 28 Gitsegukla area and the Gitwangak area, and the Skeena 29 and Kispiox River area. Are you aware of those maps? 30 A The ones that came out of the evidence of the -- of 31 those people? 32 Q Yes. 33 A Yes. We used their evidence as part of the 34 information for this map. 35 Q Do you recall when the late Kliiyem lax haa, Martha 36 Brown, gave evidence on Commission for the case? 37 A Yes. 38 Q I believe it was in 1986? 39 A Yes. I remember that. 40 Q And do you recall going on a field trip with Martha 41 Brown and Marvin George on the Kispiox valley where 42 she pointed out fishing sites to you and Marvin 43 George? 44 A That's right. 45 Q And did you keep notes of those and those locations? 46 A Yes. 47 Q And those you provided to Marvin George, isn't that 17250 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 right? 2 A That's right. 3 Q And were those notes and those observations you made 4 part of the data you relied upon in mapping -- in the 5 assisting of the mapping of this? 6 A Yes. She gave the sites several times and that was 7 one of the -- that was the time that we did it on 8 the -- on the ground. 9 Q Okay. You've referred here to the Barbeau microfilm 10 and the Duff files in which Duff had reviewed those 11 microfilms. Does Barbeau in those files refer to 12 fishing sites, places that Gitksan chiefs described to 13 him as fishing sites in the 1920s? 14 A Yes. He lists fishing sites by chief and either the 15 name of the creek where they are or the approximate 16 location. 17 Q From your work with those files and with the adaawk, 18 were you familiar -- you've already described you have 19 an extensive Gitksan vocabulary. Did you become 20 familiar with the meanings of a number of names, 21 Gitksan words, what those names meant? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And did you assist Mr. Morrell in telling him the 24 meanings of names when he was telling you the 25 location -- when he was telling you what he observed? 26 A Yes. There were occasions when that was relevant, 27 yes. 28 Q Okay. In the adaawk you've referred to earlier, in 29 one of the eras that you are talking about about the 30 peoples, the importance of the fishery, the 31 development of the salmon fishery in your report, do 32 the adaawk refer to places that appear to be fishing 33 sites in connection with villages? 34 A Well, some of the contemporary fishing sites are in 35 the location of ancient villages. And those are 36 referred to in adaawk. 37 Q Okay. Can you just give an example? 38 A Well, the fishing site at Wilson Creek is the site of 39 the village that we've been talking about Skwin 40 Skestaat. 41 Q S-k-w-i-n S-k-e-s-t-a-a-t. And is it in this sense of 42 the reliance upon the material that you were familiar 43 with that you assisted in working with Mr. Morrell and 44 in the production of that fishing site map relating to 45 Gitksan sites? 46 A Yes. Plus my general knowledge of the people and the 47 houses. 17251 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 Q 2 A 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q 10 11 A 12 Q 13 14 A 15 MR. GRANT 16 17 18 19 20 THE COURT 21 MR. WILLM 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 THE COURT 29 30 MR. GRANT 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 THE COURT 47 MR. GRANT And how did you use that knowledge? Well, he knew who was -- who -- he knew the English names of the people who were using those fishing sites and who told him that they owned them and then I helped him with the Indian names in order to correlate that information with the other sources of information that had those Indian sites recorded by Indian name rather than contemporary English name. And the script at the top of this, was that your writing? Yes. And that was a summation of the information that you knew of relating to the fishing sites? Yes. : Thank you. That document is already an exhibit, my lord, and it was admitted with the contingencies that -- of how far Mr. Morrell could go and this was the witness who worked on that document with Mr. Morrell. : All right. 3: My lord, my understanding is that it's been marked with the underlying map, in other words what Mr. Skoda did, but the facts that are contained there are not in evidence, and if my friend is now suggesting that this bit of evidence that he's led through Ms. Marsden now turns all of this overlay into facts, I object. It does not turn it into a fact. : Well, that surely must be a matter of argument, is it not? : Yes. I don't think -- I certainly don't agree with what my friend says. Neither of -- we clearly don't agree. I have the transcript of reference and your lordship at page 13971 said -- took out the commentary at the top at that stage as Mr. Morrell had not written it, and he says: \"It has some evidentiary value because (Mr. Morrell) said has that he has seen many of these sites that were in use. He does not pretend to have seen them all. But other witnesses have described a lot of these locations and this is a far easier map to follow that the one that Olive Ryan used, for example.\" And then you put me in a cum periculum comment. : Yes. : And I am -- there were things that Mr. Morrell did 17252 S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In Chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 not do but this witness did and a great objection was taken to that. This witness is now here and she's explained what she did and how she ascribed to it. MR. MACAULAY: Are we arguing that point now? THE COURT: Sounds like it. MR. MACAULAY: Because I have something to say if we are. THE COURT: I don't think we are. I think Mr. Grant is in the position where he got his document in on terms that Mr. Morrell had not proven all the facts that are shown on the map, but he has the liberty to try and supplement that. He says he has done that now with some other evidence. In the due course as a matter of argument it may appear that Mary Johnson's evidence -- or was it Olive Ryan or both? GRANT: Both. COURT: Had contributed evidence which would support what's in the map. It's a matter of argument, I think. GRANT: Yes. COURT: I am not ruling on it now. GRANT: I don't see any point in arguing it now given our time frame with this witness. I just wish my friends to be on notice that I wanted this witness to explain what she had done. You say you have added to the sum total of evidence we have on this point. MR. MACAULAY: We should save our breath until later. MR. WILLMS: Except save for this, my lord, when it was marked it was marked without the legend. It was marked as if the legend wasn't there, so for my friend to say that it's been marked, it is not accurate. THE COURT: I am not sure about the legend. The editorial comment was left out. MR. GRANT: That's right. It was marked without the editorial comment. The legend is in. THE COURT: Yes. MR. GRANT: All right. And Mr. Morrell went on to explain what parts of it meant. THE COURT: Should we take the afternoon adjournment? MR. GRANT: Yes, that's appropriate, my lord. (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED PURSUANT TO AFTERNOON BREAK) MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE COURT 17253 foregoing to be 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 I hereby certify the a true and accurate transcript of the proceedings herein to the best of my skill and ability. Laara Yardley, Official Reporter, United Reporting Service Ltd. 17254 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE THE THE MR. THE THE (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 3:15) REGISTRAR: Order in court. GRANT: My lord, just to wrap up on this matter, I would ask that just going to check over with respect to Exhibit 1042. I believe that I would ask that tab 10, which is -- COURT: Hold it. GRANT: Sorry, my lord. COURT: Yes. GRANT: I believe that tabs 1 through 8 have been marked as exhibits, and -- COURT: I don't think \u00E2\u0080\u0094 GRANT: And 6 and 7 were exhibits for identification only. COURT: Yes. GRANT: I would ask that Exhibit 8 \u00E2\u0080\u0094 COURT: I'm not sure. I don't have Exhibit 7 marked for identification. It may have been, but -- GRANT: Exhibit 7 I had noted was marked for identification. REGISTRAR: Yes. COURT: Yes, all right. REGISTRAR: Did you say 9? GRANT: No. I haven't said anything about 9 that tab 10 be marked as an exhibit. from the Barbeau file that the witness referred to earlier today. COURT: All right. REGISTRAR: Exhibit 1042-10. I would ask It's an extract (EXHIBIT 1042-10 - Extract from Barbeau file) MR. GRANT: I did not refer the witness to tab 9. It's an extract in the Duff files, and I don't see a need to mark it as an exhibit, my lord. THE COURT: All right. I don't have a mark on 12. MR. GRANT: It was marked for identification, my lord. THE COURT: Was it? All right. MR. GRANT: 7, 12 and 24 were part of her methodology. Actually, I would ask that those exhibits be marked as exhibits proper with the -- that they are part of her notations demonstrating her methodology. That's how we've dealt with other exhibits, and they only go that far, they don't go any further than that. That's how we dealt with methodological documents in the past. THE COURT: What numbers are those again? MR. GRANT: That would be 1042, bracket \u00E2\u0080\u0094 tab 7, tab 12 and tab 17255 S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 24, and sorry, and 6. Yes, my friend raises 6 as 2 well. 3 MR. WILLMS: My lord, on the methodology, essentially that 4 marking them to show methodology without disclosing 5 them can only be self-serving and not useful, and I 6 object. There's just no point in marking them. 7 THE COURT: I don't know what you mean by not disclosing them. 8 You mean they weren't disclosed previously? 9 MR. WILLMS: No, no. This is part of the massive package we got 10 last week and -- 11 THE COURT: Well, what's the point of marking them for 12 identification? Well, I'm sorry, you're not asking 13 them to be marked for identification. 14 MR. GRANT: They are marked for identification. The witness has 15 identified them in evidence, she's explained what she 16 utilized them for, and with respect to documents that 17 go to methodology, they are marked for that purpose 18 solely. I think that it may be misleading or 19 confusing down the road when we deal with argument. 20 My friends may challenge this witness' methodology and 21 everything else and then raise well, these are marked 22 for identification, therefore we can't even talk about 23 them, but the witness has explained what they are in 24 it tells of methodological approach, what we have done 25 with documents or notes for witnesses disclosed for 26 methodology. 27 THE COURT: I don't think there's any magic in having them 28 marked as exhibits in terms of what we talked about. 29 They don't prove the facts that are stated in them and 30 don't prove anything except what mental processes 31 except to get where she is or what she relied upon. 32 They don't prove anything, and for that reason with 33 some hesitation I'm going to allow them to be marked. 34 MR. GRANT: Thank you, my lord. 35 THE REGISTRAR: Okay tab 7, 12, 24 and 6. 3 6 THE COURT: Yes. 37 38 EXHIBIT 1042-6 formerly Exhibit 1042-6 for 39 identification Index cards re Origins of Kisgaast) 40 41 (EXHIBIT 1042-7 - formerly Exhibit 1042-7 for 42 identification Wolf Clan charts) 43 44 (EXHIBIT 1042-12 formerly Exhibit 1042 for 45 identification Frog Clan charts) 46 47 (EXHIBIT 1042-24 formerly Exhibit 1042 for 17256 S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 identification Eagle Clan charts) 2 MR. GRANT: Just one moment, my lord. I do not need to mark tab 3 15, tab 16, or -- just a moment -- tab 17, 18. I 4 would ask for tab 19 now to be marked as an exhibit 5 proper. The only -- this is the Barbeau-Beynon file 6 material. My friend's only concern was he wanted an 7 opportunity to compare the typescript in which Miss 8 Marsden's explained that she's respelled some of the 9 names. 10 MR. WILLMS: And my lord, in that respelling not only is there 11 respelling, but there's renaming, and that involves 12 opinion, and so I object. For example, the very first 13 one, fourth line down, she's changed 14 G-I-S-L-A-G-A-N-O' to N-I-I-S-L-A-G-A-N-O-O-S, and 15 there's a number of other ones. 16 MR. GRANT: Just a second. Where are you referring to? 17 MR. WILLMS: I'm \u00E2\u0080\u0094 18 THE COURT: On the typescript? 19 MR. WILLMS: On the typescript. So what's happened is there's 20 been an application of opinion here as she's sorted 21 out what Barbeau has done, I suppose, and corrected 22 what Barbeau's done or whatever, but there's the 23 application of opinion there. I don't object to 24 Barbeau going in, my lord, I do object to the witness' 25 opinion. 2 6 THE COURT: But the change she has made is in handwriting, and 27 it is clearly identifiable. 28 MR. GRANT: And she gave evidence on that very point three days 29 ago where she said that in Barbeau's orthography, if 30 that's the part -- the whole analysis she had to have 31 in reading this material, she had to be able to 32 understand her orthography well enough to be able to 33 understand that that spelling was what your lordship 34 would have heard of as Niislaganoos, and that's what 35 she has done with respect to the -- 36 THE COURT: Well, inasmuch as the change is clearly visible and 37 the original is there as well as the suggested change, 38 I see no reason to keep the document out on that 39 account, Mr. Willms. 40 MR. WILLMS: Well, my lord, there's no question there's been 41 changes. My only point here is that this is opinion, 42 it's not -- and my friend has just made it clear that 43 it's opinion. 44 THE COURT: Yes. But I'm going to ignore it. 45 MR. WILLMS: Thank you, my lord. 46 THE COURT: I'm going to ignore the change in the sense that if 47 I find the document to be of use I'm going to have to 17257 S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. GRANT THE COURT MR. GRANT THE COURT make use of it in its original form. It may be that the suggested change will assist me to understand it, but I will have to treat the document as being one that's in the evidence in its original form. : Yes. And that's why -- : She may lead me to -- this note may lead me to reach the same conclusion on my own. : That's right. : I don't think that the change can go in as part of the evidence, because as Mr. Willms says, that is opinion. But I don't think there's anything important that it turns on. That may be now marked as an exhibit, 1042-19. (EXHIBIT 1042-19 formerly Exhibit 1042-19 for identification Barbeau-Beynon file material) MR. GRANT: And the same with 1042-20. THE COURT: I don't have it marked at all. MR. WILLMS: The witness referred to it at the same time -- I note, my lord, that I don't either. The witness referred to both of these at the same time. I think we dealt with 1042 -- THE COURT: They're exactly the same basis, so it will be the next exhibit. (EXHIBIT 1042-20 - Formerly Exhibit for identification 1042-20 Spookw adaawk) MR. GRANT: Yes. 21 has already been marked, it's not necessary. 22 wasn't mentioned. No. It hasn't been mentioned. It's not necessary to deal with 22 or 23. 24 I believe we've already dealt with earlier. Yes. And 25 has been marked. Yes. Now, 26, my lord, your lordship takes the liberty of using some of the empty tabs. Now, 26 actually has been marked in part, and that is -- okay, the first one, two, three, four pages haven't been referred to and may be excised. COURT: The first four? GRANT: Yes. And what has been marked is the next three pages, the Men of Mediik and the summary of events, and the chronology of events of Men of Mediik and Wars THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. COURT GRANT COURT GRANT COURT GRANT THE MR. 1725? S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 THE COURT 3 4 MR. GRANT 5 THE COURT 6 7 8 MR. GRANT 9 THE COURT 10 11 MR. GRANT 12 13 THE COURT 14 MR. GRANT 15 THE COURT 16 MR. GRANT 17 18 THE COURT 19 THE REGIS 20 MR. GRANT 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 THE COURT 31 32 33 34 MR. GRANT 35 36 THE COURT 37 38 39 40 41 MR. GRANT 42 43 44 45 46 47 THE COURT of Mediik, and that was marked as Exhibit -- I've got the first five pages, so that's what you mean, Mr. Grant? Sorry, my lord, well -- I've got Chronology of Events and Men of Mediik marked at -- I'm sorry, that is a reference to where Men of Mediik may be found. That's right. 898. So you say the first four pages have been taken out. I've taken them out. And then you have a Men of Mediik, Summary of Events and Chronology of Events in Men of Mediik? Yes. I don't have marked at all. You haven't got either of those marked at all? No. I have a note that they were marked, but maybe my note was -- Exhibit 26 madam registrar? RAR: No. It's not marked. I would ask that those be marked. In fact, my lord, we dealt with that. My friend raised his objection, you may recall, to the question of generations in many years, and that Mediik -- I think it was yesterday or two days ago that we've talked about the Men of Mediik and Wars of Mediik on and on and on, and that this -- the witness has basically taken these key events described in the Men of Mediik and then put generations, many years and centuries. I recall us arguing that out two days ago. I think it should be in simply because there was a good deal of evidence about it and it won't make any sense if it's not here. I don't think it will prove anything additional to his evidence. No. Men of Mediik and Wars of Mediik is in, it's an aid to your lord. Yes. (EXHIBIT 1042-26 Chronology) Men of Mediik Summary and 27 is in. Now, the last two pages I would ask your lordship to put in, as it can either go in under one of the other tabs and I could re-index for your lordship, the aerial photo the witness referred to this morning of Kitselas Canyon. That was the last page in that tab. Which tab? 17259 S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 MR. GRANT 2 THE COURT 3 MR. GRANT 4 THE COURT 5 6 MR. GRANT 7 THE COURT 8 MR. GRANT 9 THE COURT 10 MR. GRANT 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 THE COURT 18 MR. GRANT 19 20 THE COURT 21 22 MR. GRANT 23 Q 24 25 26 27 28 A 29 Q 30 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 35 36 Q 37 38 A 39 Q 40 41 A 42 Q 43 44 A 45 46 47 THE COURT Tab 26, the last page. Is it? It's this, my lord. Yes. I saw it a moment ago, but I've lost it now. Oh, I'm sorry, I thought -- it's not part of 1042-26. Yes, yes, it is. I think it is. Yes, it is . We can leave it where it is. The witness referred to it as the last page of 1042-26. Now, I did not refer to the sketch map in front of it, although it links the two together, and I'm not wedded to that. I mean, in other words, if my friend -- if I can ask my friend a question about it if my friend is going to make a big objection I'm not going to spend more time. : How about a small objection? : The day my friend makes a small objection I think I'll sit down. : I don't think any harm is going to come of this being included as part of 26. Thank you, my lord. And then 27 is included. Maybe I can refer the witness to that map just so there's some identification of it at tab 26, the second to last page. Did you recognize that map of the Kitselas Canyon? Yes. And there are notations and numbers on that map which refer to certain places on that map? Yes. And are those notations made by yourself? Well, they're the ones that are printed with the map. The strong larger circles and the other notations are mine. And this map came out of the same publication as the aerial photo you referred to earlier? That's right. And the handwritten numbering, you've put a key of what those are at the bottom? Yes. And is that the key of those places taken out of the Men of Mediik and Wars of Mediik? Yes. Those are the various locations on the river banks below in and above the canyon where people of Kitselas lived over time. : I haven't been along there for several years; how 17260 S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 THE MR. THE MR. MR. THE MR. far would you say the canyon is from Terrace? A It's just up the road. COURT: It's very close to Terrace? A Yes. GRANT: I think on the train -- I just was on the train, it's about ten minutes. COURT: Yes, all right. WILLMS: Is that Via Rail. GRANT: The former Via Rail. You will have to ask Mr. Macaulay. And then I've already put in I believe tab 27. Has it been marked? COURT: It's in, yes, it has. GRANT: Now, the other point, my lord, I believe from my notations that the three volumes of Duff files have now been marked as exhibits, as have the tabs or Exhibits 1046, 1047, 1048 and 1049, which are the adaawk, the narrative -- they are the excerpted narratives from those four volumes of Barbeau. THE COURT: Yes. They're in as documented records of those narratives and not necessarily proof of everything that's stated in them. MR. GRANT: Not necessarily proof of everything that's stated in them. I think they're covered by your earlier ruling on adaawk, and I of course -- I think my colleague, Mr. Jackson, suggested at some point we may revisit that ruling, but they are there. THE COURT: Yes. I should mention to counsel that I was noticing the other day the Ontario Court of Appeal pronounced on proof of historical matters in the Zumbel Appeal. Counsel may want to look at that, it's quite close to what we've been talking about. GRANT: Thank you, my lord. And that just came down? COURT: Yes. It's within the last three or four months. I just happened to see it the other day. I spend as much time as I can with the Ontario courts. It's reported in the -- I think it's in the Canadian Criminal Law, C.C.C. I think, that's what it is. MR. GRANT: Now, my lord, the other -- of course finally I believe the report, volume 1 and 2 has been marked as exhibit 1050. COURT: Yes. GRANT: And I would be asking for the marking of map 1 of Exhibit 348 -- or 358, I should say, being the map produced by this witness as Exhibit 358-1, and I would also ask for the enlargement of that map, that is the wall map, to be marked as exhibit -- I believe the next number is Exhibit 1051. MR. THE THE MR. 17261 S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 MR. GRANT: Mr. WiUrn's book is 1051. Exhibit 1052 then, the 2 large map. 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 MR. WILLMS: All right. 5 THE COURT: But not as proof of the statement. 6 MR. GRANT: I'm in your lordship's hands. The other alternative 7 is it could be Exhibit 358(1)(a). It's in the 8 enlargement of -- one of the map atlas. 9 THE COURT: I've already marked it 1052. 10 11 (EXHIBIT 1052 - Enlarged map) 12 13 MR. GRANT: Well, if it's in pen, I think that's the way we 14 should go. So I would ask that that exhibit be 15 marked. And this witness is the author -- not the 16 drafter but the author of everything on that except 17 for the press document. 18 MR. WILLMS: My lord, just on that point, my friend has been 19 kind enough to give me the underlying drafts, which 20 don't support all the information that's on there. So 21 I'm a bit uneasy. I know my friend says that I 22 suppose what went to Mr. Skoda came from the witness 23 somehow, but I haven't seen it, so I haven't been able 24 to assure myself -- there are names that have been 25 added to the two draft maps Miss Marsden prepared, for 26 example, some places have changed slightly, and so 27 just in terms of -- 2 8 THE COURT: Well, shouldn't you deal with it in 29 cross-examination? 30 MR. WILLMS: Well, my lord, the problem -- it's a foundation 31 problem really, my lord. I mean normally these go in 32 because my friend gives me all the documents ahead of 33 time and I assure myself that the proper foundation is 34 in, and then there's no difficulty, but here of 35 course, as I've just said, the proper foundation 36 hasn't been disclosed. If my friend were to formally 37 approve the document with the foundation, he couldn't 38 do it, because he -- it doesn't appear to be here. 39 But I don't mind it being marked as a document if the 40 witness referred to it. 41 THE COURT: We'll mark it for that limited purpose for now, and 42 maybe you can satisfy your friend. 43 MR. GRANT: Well, my lord, I'm very concerned about what my 44 friend is saying. This witness -- this document has 45 been disclosed to my friend since last November. This 46 witness has described that all the writing on the 47 document is hers, she has described in detail what the 17262 S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 mapping is. The drafts that my friend referred to are 2 the drafts of the mapping. I do agree that they don't 3 have the little boxes, but this witness has given 4 sworn testimony that that is all her writing and her 5 conclusions, and the underlying documents have been 6 disclosed to my friend, and I ask that that document 7 go in, subject to cross-examination. My friend -- the 8 witness adopted it, it forms part of her opinion. 9 THE COURT: What are you saying is missing, Mr. Willms? 10 MR. WILLMS: Well, for example, and I just see if I can find it. 11 I've got copies of the two sketch maps. There's no 12 Laxwiiyip on the sketch maps, so obviously somebody 13 added Laxwiiyip later on from -- I'm not talking about 14 the non-map part, my lord. The witness has said that 15 all of the other portions she wrote, except for of 16 course -- I'm just talking about the map part, and so 17 the sketch maps that I received when you try to match 18 them up and make those maps, you can't do it. There's 19 information -- 20 THE COURT: What are the sketch maps? Are they what the wall 21 map is supposed to have been made from? 22 MR. GRANT: As I understand it from my friend, that map was made 23 from these two sketch maps. That's what my 24 understanding is, and if that's the case, there's 25 some -- there's some gaps. 26 MR. GRANT: Well, together with consultation of this witness 27 with Mr. Skoda, this witness is not a cartographer, 28 and we've been endeavouring to try and shorten 29 matters. 30 THE COURT: All right. I think the map can be marked as an 31 exhibit, and I think this problem can be dealt with in 32 cross-examination. If it turns out there's something 33 in that shouldn't be there or there's some reason why 34 it shouldn't be an exhibit and as a result of 35 cross-examination then I can unmark it. 36 MR. GRANT: Or admitted at that stage, I think that's what 37 I'm -- 38 THE COURT: All right. 1052. 39 THE COURT: Finished, Mr. Grant? 40 MR. GRANT: I'm sorry, my lord, that is -- I believe I have now 41 completed, and I want to just say that I spoke with 42 the witness at the break, I also spoke with my friend, 43 Mr. Willms. He's not as optimistic as he was 44 concerning time, and -- 45 MR. WILLMS: My lord, I'm still optimistic regarding the one day 46 that I told my friend about. I'm not as optimistic 47 about tomorrow afternoon as I was earlier. 17263 S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 THE COURT: 2 MR. GRANT: 3 4 5 6 THE COURT: 7 MR. GRANT: 8 9 10 THE COURT: 11 12 13 14 15 MR. WILLMS 16 17 18 19 THE COURT: 20 MR. GRANT: 21 MR. WILLMS 22 23 24 25 26 THE COURT: 27 28 CROSS-EXAM 29 Q 30 31 A 32 33 Q 34 35 A 36 THE COURT: 37 38 MR. WILLMS 39 THE COURT: 40 MR. WILLMS 41 THE COURT: 42 MR. WILLMS 43 44 45 THE COURT: 46 MR. WILLMS 47 Yes, all right. Well, see how we get on. And I just -- also I spoke with the witness before the break, and she did not have that much sleep last night, and so I just -- I'm just saying that in advance. Well \u00E2\u0080\u0094 I'm certainly in agreement to starting early tomorrow as well, if your lordship -- I don't know how your lordship's schedule is. I can start early tomorrow if I have to. I think we should sit for a little bit longer tonight if we can. The witness will -- if the witness wears out on us I won't be surprised, or we all wear out. Go ahead, Mr. Willms. : Thank you, my lord. And I understand my friend, he hopes to have that document down for your lordship tomorrow morning, so hopefully we can deal with that at an early time. All right. Well, yeah. I've arranged my files to come down. : I wonder if Exhibit 1043 and 1042 could be put before the witness. Miss Marsden, could you turn to tab 1 of Exhibit 1043, please. And please turn to the -- this is an adaawk entitled the \"Gitksedzaw\", G-I-T-K-S-E-D-A-W, \"Village Of The Nass\". Where are you, Mr. Willms? EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLMS: I'm at tab 1, my lord, of 1043, but I'm past the summary. And Miss Marsden, is this an old adaawk? Yes. Do you mean old in the sense of the events it refers to, or in the sense of when it was recorded? No. In the sense of the events that it refers to; is it old? Yes. I haven't found what you're talking about yet, Mr. Willms. : My lord, 1043. Tab 1. : Tab 1, the first three pages are typewritten. Mine aren't, mine are handwritten. : Yours -- the handwritten portion in yours, my lord, might be after tab 1, and in mine it's before -- I don't know whether mine's right or -- It's headed \"Ancient History of the Giskaast\". : Yes. That's page 1 of the volume, but my tab 1 doesn't start until after a map. There's a map. 17264 S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms 1 THE COURT: Well, that's \u00E2\u0080\u0094 oh, I'm sorry, you're quite right. 2 I'm looking at the first tab rather than tab 1. I 3 have it now. 4 MR. WILLMS: And it's the fourth page in, my lord, where the 5 actual adaawk starts. 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 MR. WILLMS: 8 Q Now, how old are the events -- how old are the oldest 9 events described in this adaawk? 10 A Well, this is the event that I described that took 11 place -- that I concluded took place at Laxwiiyip, and 12 the people that are being talked about, the Gitksedzaw 13 are the people who settled at the mouth of the Nass 14 River there, and I place it in the time period prior 15 to Temlaxam. 16 Q So are you saying you just place it somewhere before 17 3500 BP, or is it before 7000 BP? Can you put a time 18 on it? 19 A Well, I dealt with that period. Do you want me to go 20 through the account that I gave in evidence already? 21 Q No. I would just like you to tell me the oldest date 22 that this represents to you, this adaawk? 23 A The oldest possible date? 24 Q Yes? 25 A Well, in that early period you can see that in the 26 creation of the Fireweed I put a wide range of dates. 27 The earliest map deals with the -- with references to 28 deglaciation and empty land and so on, and this 29 occurs, and then the disbursal from Temlaxam occurs, 30 and so I've placed in between, and that's why I've 31 left a wide range of dates for that. 32 Q So this is somewhere between 9000 and 4000 BP? 33 A Well, Laxwiiyip was probably just deglaciated at 9000, 34 so it's not likely to have taken place then, and it's 35 not likely to have been as close as 4000 BP because 36 Temlaxam was established for a long time. It's 37 probably in the mid-range. 38 Q Say 7000? 39 A Or 6, to be conservative. 40 Q Now, just keeping that open, would you turn to the tab 41 27 in 1042, which is the Historical Atlas of Canada, 42 and this is plate 6, which is something that you 43 referred to and is consistent with your opinion; is 44 that correct -- plate 8, sorry? 45 A Inasmuch as my opinion covers a certain limited area, 46 yes. 47 Q Yes. And you know that this plate represents or 17265 S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms 1 purports to represent cultural sequences from 1000 BC 2 to AD 500? 3 A That's right. 4 Q And so in terms of BP, that's 3000 BP to 1500 BP, 5 correct? 6 A Yes. 7 Q All right. 8 A Give or take a decade. 9 Q If you look down to the description, and you've 10 read -- I think my friend read part of it to you, it's 11 on the first page: 12 13 \"During the period from 1000 BC to AD 500 the 14 diffusion of ideas rather than the migration 15 of people appears to have been the major mechanism 16 for cultural change. Around 1000 B.C. pottery 17 spread from Asia across northern Alaska to the 18 Yukon coast and from the south to much of eastern 19 Canada. The bow and arrow also spread rapidly, 20 probably from a number of independent sources.\" 21 22 Now, you accept that, don't you? 23 A Not necessarily, no. 24 MR. WILLMS: No? Because if you turn to the adaawk which you've 25 dated 6000 to 7000 BP, you will see in the third 26 paragraph describing an early fight: 27 28 \"After a time, a fight broke out, because of the 29 gambling. They uttered challenges and then began 30 to shoot arrows; they used barbed and pointed 31 spears called K'yeen, and they fought bitterly. 32 They had all sorts of weapons, each man his own. 33 A good many used only bow and arrows.\" 34 35 So if it's -- if the cultural sequence -- 36 MR. GRANT: Well, you should read the rest of that sentence. 37 MR. WILLMS: 38 Q 39 \"bows and arrows, others, the hanrallar, a weapon 40 made of bone with pointed blade, club-like.\" 41 42 Now, just referring to the bow and arrows; you will 43 agree with me that if this description in the cultural 44 sequence, plate 8, is correct, this adaawk isn't much 45 older than 3,000 years; is that correct? 46 A I'm not familiar with the work that has led to this 47 conclusion about the bow and arrow, and it's -- as 17266 S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms 1 opposed to the work that led to the conclusions that I 2 quoted here. I'm familiar with the sources of the 3 information and why they say that, and I'm comfortable 4 with the conclusions that I used out of this excerpt. 5 I don't therefore adopt everything in this atlas. 6 Q Well, let's put it this way: Assuming that the atlas 7 is correct, then your dating for the adaawk is 8 incorrect? 9 A Not necessarily. 10 Q Well, so \u00E2\u0080\u0094 11 A As I said earlier, when I do the dating, it involves 12 not only putting things in chronology but using a 13 number of different versions, and the weight of the 14 descriptions in the different versions and the 15 assessment of the informant also play a part in my 16 conclusions as to why -- whether I put it in a certain 17 chronology or not. Now, the bow and arrow has never 18 been something that I've used as an indication of 19 time-depth, because I'm not sure that we have 20 definitive proof of when the bow and arrow began to be 21 used on the north coast. 22 MR. WILLMS: All right. So can I put it this way: You're 23 unaware of the archaeological information on when 24 arrow heads were first located in this area; is that 25 correct? 26 MR. GRANT: In which area? 27 MR. WILLMS: The map area. 28 MR. GRANT: The north coast area generally? 29 MR. WILLMS: 30 Q Well, whatever that big map is. Are you aware of any 31 of the archaeological information on how old arrow 32 heads are from any of the area that you've mapped on 33 your map, Ancient Times, the arrival about 10000 years 34 BP? 35 A I know that the heads that are commonly called arrow 36 heads are described as being used for spears and as 37 well as arrows, and I'm not sure that they can define 38 by finding them in a dig whether they're arrow heads 39 or spear heads. Microblades, for example, were used 40 for a number of different purposes. It's not a -- 41 MR. WILLMS: The answer is you don't know. 42 MR. GRANT: Just hold on. I think she was in the middle of a 43 sentence. 44 MR. WILLMS: 45 Q If you do know, please let me know which digs? 46 A I'm not conversant with the archaeological data on 47 that, no. 17267 S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. GRANT MR. MR. GRANT MR. WILLMS: But so you will agree with me though that assuming that the Map Atlas of Canada, exhibit plate 8, assuming that that represents an introduction of bow and arrow technology to the coast 3,000 years ago, you've misdated the adaawk? I object, my lord. I object because that's not what is said in that statement. My friend is misstating what's in the map atlas in that sentence in that he's totally changed around what that sentence says. WILLMS: Well, I don't know what my friend is exercised about, my lord. It says cultural sequences 1000 B.C. to A.D. 500, it's got a little arrow down the coast talking about an Asiatic warfare pattern, 1000 B.C, and in a paragraph that starts talking about diffusion of ideas it talks about the diffusion of pottery ideas and then about bow and arrow, but maybe my friend sees something that I can't. I will assist my friend, because what it says is quite simply this: In talking it says: \"The bow and arrow also spread rapidly, probably from a number of independent sources.\" That's it. Where are those independent sources? It doesn't say it spread from Asia, it doesn't say it spread from Vancouver Island, it doesn't say where. It's talking about cultural sequences, 1000 B.C. to A.D. 500. GRANT: Yes. COURT: Doesn't matter where it came from. GRANT: Well, it says from a number of independent sources, and one of them may have been this very place, who knows. It doesn't say that. COURT: From what very place? GRANT: From the place at Laxwiiyip. COURT: It wouldn't matter it was invented there. That wouldn't affect your friend's question. GRANT: Oh, but \u00E2\u0080\u0094 COURT: That's the source of the bow and arrow, it spread from there. The fact of the matter is if it spread from there between 1000 and 500 it seems to me the answer to Mr. Willms' question is obvious. This couldn't have happened in the time sequence the witness has described. It didn't matter where it spread from, if that's when it spread, or are you suggesting that maybe it was there all along and only spread at that time. THE COURT MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE 1726? S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms 1 MR. GRANT: 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 THE COURT: 11 MR. GRANT: 12 13 14 15 16 THE COURT: 17 18 19 MR. WILLMS 20 Q 21 A 22 THE COURT: 23 A 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 MR. WILLMS 35 Q 36 37 A 38 39 40 Q 41 42 43 44 45 A 46 Q 47 A Well, you see, it's a very truncated statement is -- what it says: The bow and arrow spread rapidly, possibly from a number of independent sources.\" Now, it's entirely consistent with that statement that the bow and arrow was at this location at that period of time. It just says independent sources. It didn't spread until 1000 B.C. I don't know. The sentence is totally inconclusive, but it doesn't contradict what the witness is saying. My friend is suggesting that it does, and I'm just saying he has to go a little further than this one sentence. I think that you can pursue your cross-examination, Mr. Willms. Seems to me what you asked the witness is a matter of argument as much as anything else. I'll move along, my lord. Can I continue with the answer? Yes. If archaeology -- if you find something at a certain level, it doesn't preclude the possibility of finding it at an earlier level, it simply states that it's there at that time period. If their evidence indicates the spread of the bow and arrow at this time period, it doesn't preclude the existence of the bow and arrow prior to that, it simply indicates that they have not found any in archaeological digs, unlike the evidence that I was quoting which simply said that there was warfare. It did not preclude warfare prior to that time period. It was simply a corroboration. How long was it between the time that the Mediik destroyed Temlaxam and the snowfall? That's one of the time ranges that isn't explicit. It appears to be closer to the disbursal than to the founding. So is that a year? Isn't there a reference in the snowfall adaawk that the people had forgotten all about the Mediik adaawk, about what happened when the Mediik destroyed Temlaxam or parts of it? Isn't that part of the adaawk? Do you have it at hand? You don't recall? If I remember correctly, they had forgotten the 17269 S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms 1 precepts of the mountain goat, and it may well be 2 reiterated that they had forgotten the precepts of the 3 Mediik, and that could be a span of a couple of 4 hundred years, 300 years, 400 years. 5 Q Now, the disbursal from Temlaxam took place after the 6 snowfall? 7 A That's the same event, yes. 8 Q All right. Could Exhibit 784 be put before the 9 witness, please. My lord, this is a cross-examination 10 binder for Messrs. Gottesfeld, Mathewes, and a group 11 of the early witnesses. Could you turn to tab 1. Tab 12 1 is a summary proposal for Paleoenvironmental 13 Research by Dr. Rolf Mathewes. Have you ever seen 14 this before? 15 A No. 16 Q Now, if you turn to page 2, in this summary by Dr. 17 Mathewes, he says, and I'm under, you will see, Task 18 2, \"Detailed Corroboration of Oral History\", and then 19 a paragraph 2.0, and then if you just skip the first 20 paragraph there, he starts the next paragraph: 21 22 \"Detecting the 'Great Snowfall', if it was an event 23 of only one season or even a decade, is unlikely 24 in a pollen diagram.\" 25 26 Just stopping there; is there more than one \"Great 27 Snowfall\" in Gitksan oral tradition, or is there one? 28 A Well, they refer to periods when the glaciers got 29 larger, but in terms of the \"Great Snowfall\", there's 30 just the one adaawk. 31 Q And if you turn to page -- the top of the next page, 32 you will see Dr. Mathewes talks about this. He says: 33 34 \"A literature survey should be undertaken to 35 summarize geological and especially tree-ring 36 evidence of neoglacial cooling, it is possible, 37 for example, that the 'Great Snowfall' might refer 38 to the 'Year Without a Summer', identified as 1816 39 in eastern Canada.\" 40 41 Just pausing there; have you ever heard of that, \"The 42 Year Without a Summer\"? 43 A Yes, I have. 44 Q And had you ever considered that perhaps the \"Great 45 Snowfall\" took place at the same time as the \"Year 4 6 Without the Summer\"? 47 A No. Because it didn't work, wouldn't work. 17270 S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms 1 Q It didn't work in your sequencing; is that correct? 2 A First of all, when -- the description of the \"Great 3 Snowfall\" is extremely problematic, because there's a 4 tremendous snowfall in a very limited area, and then 5 you go down river and it's spring. In all of the 6 analysis of the adaawk I tried to examine whether 7 there would be scientific dating that could help. And 8 in some cases -- in this case there obviously wasn't 9 any, and the actual events were such that they were -- 10 were such that I decided to consider them as symbolic, 11 which was a process that I went through with 12 everything, and if it didn't affect the essential 13 facts of the case, which was the people could no 14 longer live at Temlaxam and migrated, and that's what 15 I was concerned with in terms of what I was doing, and 16 it didn't matter that it was symbolic or not symbolic. 17 I understand that the description all the adaawk of 18 the \"Great Snowfall\" to indicate a time when they 19 could no longer live from the resources, and possibly 20 as a result of some climate change, but that is not 21 part of my opinion. 22 Q Did you know that dating the \"Great Snowfall\" was 23 something that had been considered in this case? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Were you not interested in seeing at least how far the 26 scientific evidence could go to do that? 27 A Yes. There were a number of events similar to that, 28 only less problematic in terms that they weren't 29 possibly symbolic, and in a number of cases the 30 scientific facts simply were not helpful. 31 Q Well, certainly the fact of 1816 for the \"Great 32 Snowfall\" would not be helpful to your chronology, 33 would it? 34 A Yes. But the summer -- the \"Year Without a Summer\" 35 wasn't a \"Great Snowfall\" either. I mean if you had a 36 climatologist describe the \"Year Without a Summer\" you 37 wouldn't get the description of the \"Great Snowfall\", 38 so I mean it doesn't prove anything either way. It 39 was simply an exploration of a possibility. 40 Q However, if Dr. Mathewes had been successful in his 41 tree-ring analysis, it may have changed your 42 chronology somewhat, wouldn't you agree? 43 A If he had been able to show and describe an event that 44 had exactly duplicated their description, but I don't 45 think that's possible, and it wouldn't have changed 46 the chronology, it would only have presented a problem 47 in terms of putting dates beside the chronology. The 17271 S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms 1 chronology's internal. 2 Q By chronology, you mean what comes before something 3 else? 4 A That's right. 5 Q So that the chronology that you have done is something 6 that no matter when it got started, the chronology in 7 your opinion would stay the same, the events that 8 preceded other events would be the same? 9 A That's right. Plus there are indications of time 10 periods within the adaawk and indications of time 11 depth within the adaawk. 12 MR. WILLMS: Yes. 13 THE COURT: Do you want a short break? 14 MR. WILLMS: Well, if we're going to carry on until 5:00, my 15 lord, it might be helpful. 16 THE COURT: All right. We'll take a short break. 17 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. 18 19 (RECESS TAKEN AT 4:10) 2 0 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 4:25) 21 22 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. 2 3 THE COURT: Mr. Willms. 24 MR. WILLMS: 25 Q Miss Marsden, did you review and critique drafts of 26 other experts' reports? 27 A I wouldn't say critiqued. 28 Q Did you review drafts of other experts' reports? 29 A In the very beginning there were a few drafts that I 30 read, and then after that I didn't read either drafts 31 or reports until my opinion was completed. 32 Q And whose drafts did you read? 33 A I read the Summary of the Ancient Village References 34 by Linda Hogarth. I think I read a couple of reports 35 that were not -- were never tendered, I mean they were 36 decided they weren't going to use them. 37 Q Did you play any part in that decision making? 38 A No. 39 Q Of the experts that have been called, who else? 40 A I can't really recall. 41 Q So Hogarth is the only one you can recall? 42 A Well, I was working in the Tribal Council office, and 43 there were people around and there were conversations, 44 but that wasn't what I was doing. People came and 45 went a lot when I was there, but I was doing work for 46 council, and then I was extremely busy writing my 47 report. 17272 S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms 1 MR. WILLMS: Well, you reviewed Mr. Morrell's, didn't you; you 2 remember that? 3 MR. GRANT: His report? 4 MR. WILLMS: 5 Q Yes, a draft? 6 A I may have, but I don't remember the content of it. 7 Q Did you tell any other expert that you did not think 8 they should include an item in their report? 9 A No. 10 Q My lord, I'm reading from Mr. Gottesfeld -- Dr. 11 Gottesfeld's evidence of October 28th, page 9224, 12 starting at line 42. It's volume 145. Dr. Gottesfeld 13 gave evidence and said this: 14 15 \"Q Did you speak to Susan Marsden about any 16 of your draft reports? 17 A Yes, there were conversations. 18 Q Did your report change at all as a result 19 of those conversations? 20 A Yes. No, not in terms of was there 21 something written in there that I did not 22 include, but there was an item that I did 23 not include after I discussed it with her. 24 I said 'Well, do you think I should put this 25 item in', and she did not think I should.\" 26 27 Do you remember that now? 28 A No. You asked me if I told somebody to take something 29 out. That's not the same as my opinion. I was not in 30 a capacity to tell anybody anything, I was not an 31 administrator. 32 Q My question, and I read it word for word, was did you 33 tell any other expert that you did not think they 34 should include an item in their report, and your 35 answer was no? 36 A Well, I understood that as telling him to take it out, 37 and I don't recall that conversation with Dr. 38 Gottesfeld. 39 Q So there may have been other experts that you talked 40 to that you can't recall right now, you may have 41 discussed their report with them? 42 A There were a lot of discussions going on at the time, 43 but I was not working in the capacity as an editor or 44 as a decision maker. 45 MR. WILLMS: Did you communicate in writing with any other 46 experts? 47 MR. GRANT: Here is my friend referring to experts who have 17273 S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms 1 given evidence in the case? 2 MR. WILLMS: 3 Q Yes. 4 A There was a point early on when -- I'm not sure 5 whether it was by phone or in writing when I 6 communicated with one or the other of the linguists, I 7 think, but that was simply because somebody had said 8 \"Well, why don't you do it\". 9 Q You've known Dr. Gottesfeld for quite a period of 10 time? 11 A I knew him on a private not on a personal basis. 12 MR. WILLMS: If you still have Exhibit 784 in front of you, can 13 you turn to tab 7, please. 14 THE COURT: Which exhibit, please? 15 MR. WILLMS: 16 Q 784-7, my lord. It was the one marked Dr. Mathewes, 17 Gottesfeld, et al. This is a draft of Dr. 18 Gottesfeld's report entitled \"Stekyooden Landslides\", 19 and it's dated July 14th, 1985. Do you recall whether 20 you reviewed this report at any time? 21 A It's hard to remember. I've seen his final report 22 recently. 23 Q So you might have seen that? 24 A I might have seen this, yes. 25 Q You will see that in the introduction to the report, 26 on page 2 there is a discussion in the second 27 paragraph of the one-horned mountain goat of Temlaham; 28 do you see that discussion? 29 A Yes. 30 Q And that -- that adaawk is associated with the 31 landslide; is that correct? 32 A In the adaawk it's described in two ways; one as a 33 part of the mountain literally collapsing underneath 34 the people, and in the other is the people falling off 35 the edge of a big cliff. 36 Q And you will see Dr. Gottesfeld also sets out the 37 Mediik, a reference to the Mediik adaawk in the third 38 paragraph? And of course that's the adaawk of the 39 bear, which destroyed part of Temlaxam? 40 A That's the one in Men of Mediik, yes. 41 Q Then if you turn to page 4, you will see that Dr. 42 Gottesfeld takes up the whole page dealing with the 43 Carnaby Debris Fan. Have you heard of the Carnaby 44 Debris Fan before? 45 A Before this moment? 46 Q Yes? 47 A Yes. Oh, the Carnaby Debris Fan, I don't know. 17274 S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms 1 Q As opposed to Chicago Creek? 2 A Gee, I don't know. 3 MR. WILLMS: Did no one \u00E2\u0080\u0094 4 MR. GRANT: Just a moment. The witness would like to just look 5 at it, let her look at the exhibit. 6 MR. WILLMS: 7 Q All right. I don't know if it helps you, but at the 8 very end he refers to mountain goats? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Seen above the debris. Now, do you recall the Carnaby 11 Debris Fan, anybody telling you about it? 12 A No. But I recall a discussion about whether it would 13 be possible to do an exploration to see if a major 14 portion of Stekyooden had collapsed and to date it. I 15 don't recall it as being called the Carnaby Debris 16 Fan. I don't recall there being any results coming 17 out of that exploration. 18 Q You weren't told of Dr. Gottesfeld's carbon-dating 19 results from the Carnaby Debris Fan; is that correct? 20 A Well, no. 21 Q No? 22 A If I was, I don't recall it. 23 Q Did you understand that the Carnaby Debris Fan is a 24 landslide of size that is similar to the Chicago Creek 25 landslide? 26 A No. I thought that the Chicago Creek was the -- I'm 27 afraid that the conversations I had with him were so 28 long ago that I really can't recall accurately what I 29 was told and what I wasn't told. 30 Q Did anyone mention to you that the Carnaby Debris Fan 31 was being investigated to determine whether it could 32 be dated for the mountain goat adaawk? 33 A I knew that he was looking for a large significant 34 collapse of Stekyooden. 35 Q And you know that the carbon dates that he got 36 included dates of 250 before the present from his 37 carbon dating; did you know that? 38 A Well, even from reading this, I don't know that. 39 Q No, it's not in there. 4 0 A Oh. 41 Q He does the carbon dating later. 42 A Oh, okay. No. 43 Q All right. But 250 years ago wouldn't fit, would it, 44 because that would -- the mountain goat adaawk comes 45 before Mediik, doesn't it? 46 A That's correct. 47 Q All right. 17275 S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms 1 A But I don't know what you're referring to when you say 2 250 years ago. I don't know what this Carnaby Debris 3 Fan is. I mean -- 4 Q Well, we've heard evidence from Dr. Gottesfeld that he 5 did obtain carbon dates from the Debris Fan, including 6 a date of 250 years BP, from a sample that he took 7 from the fan? 8 A Well, with my limited understanding of what a debris 9 fan is, I thought it was something that was ongoing, 10 small debris as opposed to great big chunks of rock. 11 Q Yeah. It's described by Dr. Gottesfeld in his report 12 at Exhibit 785 page 8 as a massive debris flow. The 13 slide deposit is of uniform lethology and appears to 14 have resulted from a single massive event. I take it 15 you didn't know that? 16 A No. 17 Q No. You know that the Wet'suwet'en speak an 18 Athabaskan language? 19 A I know that that's what the linguists classify it as, 20 yes. 21 Q And did you know that Dr. Kari has given evidence on 22 behalf of the plaintiffs of the time depth of the 23 Athabaskan languages? 24 A I know -- I know that, yes. 25 Q And you know that the evidence that Dr. Kari gave 26 about the time depth of the Athabaskan language, which 27 he describes as the divergence from proto-Athabaskan 28 to be about 2500 years; you knew that, or you know 2 9 that now? 30 A I just heard it from you, yes. 31 Q All right. You didn't know that before now? 32 A I know that there -- one of the areas, as I said when 33 you were asking me before, that I looked into in terms 34 of dating was linguistics, but the subtleties of many 35 migrations over time simply can't be reflected by the 36 linguistic theory. 37 Q Do you mean the linguistic theory is inconsistent with 38 your theory? 39 A I wouldn't say it was inconsistent, no. It simply 40 wasn't a way to help me dovetail dates with the 41 chronology. 42 Q Well, did you suggest in your evidence that the time 43 period of Temlaxam is the same time period of Dizkle? 44 A Yes. 45 Q And based on that, you would have the ancestors of the 46 Wet'suwet'en in the Bulkley Valley on your assessment 47 of the adaawk prior to the disbursal at Temlaxam, 17276 S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms 1 which you put at about 3500 years BP; is that correct? 2 A Yes. There are other theories of the ancestral 3 languages of languages like the Wet'suwet'en, and they 4 go back as far as deglaciation. It is not a unified 5 opinion within the field, and those people dealing 6 with the Na-dene people have taken -- in fact, there 7 are people who say that they migrated out of the 8 northern area after deglaciation and spread down, and 9 those are the ancestors, in their opinion, of the 10 Athabaskan languages. 11 Q But did you know that some linguists, including 12 linguists who have given evidence on behalf of the 13 plaintiffs in this case, theorize that early 14 Athabaskans did not spill out into the Mackenzie 15 region initially but moved southward from northern 16 British Columbia into the Yukon -- into the Tahltan, 17 Tsesaut and Carrier territory; you were aware of that? 18 A I'm familiar with the fact that that theory exists, 19 yes. 20 Q And you're also aware that evidence has been given of 21 this case by an expert called by the plaintiffs that 22 the proto-Athabaskan homeland is somewhere in the 23 Alaska-Yukon, very northern British Columbia area. 24 Were you aware of that? 25 A Well, that's not inconsistent with other theories. 26 It's the time depth that varies. 27 Q You also know that the linguistic evidence that's been 28 given at this trial by Dr. Kari is that people 29 migrated from the proto-Athabaskan homeland to where 30 they eventually ended up; you knew that? 31 A No. I don't know that. I'm not familiar with Dr. 32 Kari's evidence. 33 Q Now, were you aware that from the linguistic evidence 34 that the Tsimshian languages of Gitksan, Nishga, coast 35 Tsimshian and southern Tsimshian derived from a 36 proto-Tsimshianic language; did you know that? 37 A I know that there once again are theories about the 38 Tsimshian language. I'm familiar with other ones as 39 well. 40 Q And you know that the evidence that's been presented 41 at this trial by the plaintiffs indicates the 42 proto-Tsimshian homeland is on the coast; in fact, in 43 the Skeena estuary and south? 44 A No. I don't know that. 45 MR. WILLMS: Did you know that the time divergence for 46 proto-Tsimshian has been estimated by evidence given 47 by the plaintiffs' experts in this case as somewhere 17277 S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms 1 between 500 and 2,000 years; did you know that? 2 THE COURT: You're saying divergence from -- 3 MR. WILLMS: Proto-Tsimshian to Gitksan. Proto-Tsimshian to the 4 four languages that Dr. Kari and Dr. Rigsby referred 5 to in their report. 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 MR. WILLMS: It's in the report, Mr. Grant. 8 MR. GRANT: If my friend is referring to when he's saying 9 something about -- first of all, I have two points. 10 One is my friend's now saying evidence that's 11 presented without any reference even to the person 12 that's representing it until I stand up, and then he 13 says it's Dr. Kari. I would like him to put what 14 witness he's referring to for my ability, if not the 15 witness, courtesy to the witness. Secondly, I wonder, 16 my friend has this evidence, and is he asking this -- 17 he's asking this witness what she knows and what is 18 the relevance of that. Are we in a situation of now 19 argument or of the witness commenting on another 20 witness' evidence which you have ruled on in the past, 21 and I know given some broader ambit, my lord, in the 22 case of experts, but I mean he's not even going that 23 far. He's just saying \"Did you know this and did you 24 know that\". If it's in evidence, it's a question of 2 5 argument. 26 THE COURT: Well, there are a number of streams involved in 27 this. Firstly, there is a theory that says that 28 counsel has to put to an important witness the burden 29 of his case, and I'm not sure he has to put to him the 30 burden of the case that calls the witness, but it 31 seems to me it is fair to put to the witness that 32 there is another theory that might be used in argument 33 to give her a chance to answer it. I'm not sure that 34 it's necessary to give the name of the witness. If 35 counsel asks for it, counsel may decide to do so. 36 Seems to me that giving the name of the witness is 37 useful in some circumstances, but in other 38 circumstances it may be said to be terrorizing the 39 witness, that it shouldn't be done. So I'm not sure 40 there's a hard-and-fast rule that can be applied. I 41 think that if you -- if counsel puts the question the 42 way that there is evidence in this case, that such and 43 such, then that being challenged, but I don't think 44 it's a question of being fair to the witness. It may 45 be unfair to the witness to give the name, because if 46 it's a person with weight and authority, the witness 47 may be, as the cases say, terrorized into agreement. 1727? S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. THE MR. GRANT COURT GRANT THE COURT MR. THE GRANT COURT MR. THE MR. MR. THE MR. On the other hand, if counsel challenges what the -- what the manner in which the evidence has been characterized, then I think it's then appropriate for cross-examining counsel to be asked to state what is the source of that description that he's given in the evidence. That second point was the one I was equally concerned about, because -- You don't agree with his description of what the evidence is. Well, in some cases I may and some cases I won't. I am in a situation, like your lordship, I confess that I have not committed to memory all of the opinions of all of the experts given since last November. And that's where I'm -- I at least want an opportunity to consider that. I don't think the cross-examination can be stood down while counsel go and check their notes. I don't ask that. If my friend -- But if counsel asks for the name of the witness, generally speaking I would permit it to be given, but I don't think that that is the rule that that is to always be the case. Here we've been talking about Dr. Kari, haven't we? WILLMS: Yes, my lord. The only linguist that the plaintiffs have called. COURT: Well, Dr. Rigsby's evidence is in. WILLMS: Yes. GRANT: That's right, there's two linguists. And even if my friend is -- he says it's linguistic evidence, that's fine as well, but sometimes he's been jumping around. COURT: All right. Go ahead, Mr. Willms. WILLMS: Q Now, you said earlier in your evidence, and correct me if I'm wrong, that from about 7000 BP to date that most -- that the people were in the area, there were no significant migrations into the area. Am I stating your evidence correctly? I thought that the date that you said -- In the broad area indicated on the map, yes. Yes. But you will -- and just backing up, let me clarify the proto-Athabaskan again. Did you say that you had heard of the linguistic theory of the proto-Athabaskan migrations, or that you didn't -- you hadn't heard about it? Maybe you would like to define proto-Athabaskan in this particular case, because it's not always readily A Q A 17279 S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms 1 apparent what people mean by that term. 2 Q All right. What I mean when I say proto-Athabaskan is 3 I mean the language from which the Athabaskan language 4 family derived? 5 A Well, as I told you, there's another term for that 6 called the Na-dene, and there are other theories about 7 the origins of the Athabaskan languages. And when I 8 investigated linguistic theory as a possible aid in 9 timing things, I saw that there were a number of 10 theories, and inasmuch as I'm not a linguist, I was 11 unable to decide for myself between them, and I 12 decided not to use any linguistic information in 13 conjunction with my work, and that was very early on. 14 And I didn't -- I did a fair amount of reading on the 15 subject, and I just came to the conclusion that there 16 was not a very fixed -- very agreed upon chronology 17 for either Athabaskan language or for Tsimshian. 18 Tsimshian is one of the most questionable languages 19 there is. It has Penuche(Phonetics). It's a 20 Penuchean which has routes below Vancouver in 21 Washington State and Oregon, it has influences from 22 the Kwak used on the south coast, there are loan words 23 from as far south as Rivers' Inlet, and it has a 24 connection with the Athabaskan languages. It's an 25 extremely complex language, and I think to say 26 proto-Tsimshian start at this place in this time is to 27 simplify the issue, and inasmuch as I was not doing 28 linguistics, I did not address the complexities of 29 trying to time date language where the authorities in 30 the field were really not in agreement at all. And 31 the closest theory in terms of what might have 32 assisted me in corroborating this was the one that I 33 referred to where -- and I can bring you the article, 34 if you would like to look at it, where the Na-dene 35 originate amongst the Ayach prior to deglaciation, and 36 they spread south after that, and that's an acceptable 37 linguistic theory that was published in a periodical, 38 and I felt that there was such disagreement on the 39 issue that it really wasn't a stable source for me for 40 corroboration. 41 Q All right. Is there any way that you can fit a theory 42 of migration 2,500 years ago into this area, into your 43 chronology? 44 A Of linguistic theory? 45 Q No, no. Yeah, but the linguistic theory, is there any 46 way that you can fit a migration of peoples 2,500 47 years ago or later from outside the map area into the 17280 S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms 1 map area into your chronology; can you fit it in? 2 A When I did the chronology, I looked at all of the 3 accounts, and there are no other accounts, and all of 4 the contemporary villages and all of their ancestors 5 are referred to in the statements of origins files, 6 and from that I concluded that after that point there 7 were no newcomers, because that's what they said. 8 Q Can you fit an early migration south through the 9 Cordillera region and occupation of the Babine Lake, 10 Bulkley River areas by people's ancestral to the 11 present Wet'suwet'en for at least 1,500 to 2,000 12 years; can you fit that into your chronology? 13 A I don't deal with the Wet'suwet'en area in my work. 14 All I deal with is the Wet'suwet'en who are related to 15 the Gitksan and those arrows coming outside of the 16 area that I'm dealing with there. I know that there 17 are movements of people south of Hazelton that are of 18 a different people. 19 MR. WILLMS: Can you fit a movement of Tsimshian speaking people 20 from the coast between 500 and 2,000 years ago into 21 the Gitksan area, can you fit that into your 22 chronology? 23 THE COURT: What were the years, 500? 24 MR. WILLMS: 25 Q Between 500 BP to 2000 BP? 26 A A movement of Tsimshian speaking people into the 27 Gitksan territories? 28 Q Yes. A migration of people from the coast, the Skeena 29 estuary into the Gitksan area ranging at a starting 30 time of at the latest to -- at the earliest 2,000 31 years ago, at the latest 500. Can you fit that into 32 your chronology? 33 A Well, if you go back another 500 to 1,000 years, yes, 34 because there's that -- that's exactly what happens in 35 terms of the people. The Tlingit, who become 36 Tsimshian, and then that influence that I talk about 37 up to the Gitksan, but it would be a slow influence 38 over time. It wouldn't be a group of people suddenly 39 arriving and being incorporated into the culture. 4 0 Q And can you fit a movement of people -- 41 A Could I just go back to that, please. As far as I 42 understand, and I'm -- I've lived and heard both 43 languages, there's not a great deal of difference. I 44 don't understand oral Gitksan that well, and I 45 understand oral Tsimshian almost as well as I 46 understand oral Gitksan. The nature of the subtleties 47 other to analyse that as an influence on the Gitksan 17281 S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms 1 that long ago, I really don't think that that's a 2 very -- a very firm -- there's not enough difference 3 between the two languages for one to say that one 4 migrated in amongst the others. 5 Q Now, I will just put a proposition to you, and I want 6 you to tell me if you can fit that into your 7 chronology. And my lord, I am reading from Exhibit 8 883, tab 2, page 6: 9 10 \"The fur trade seems to have spurred the Gitksan 11 occupation of the middle Nass and especially the 12 upper Nass and upper Skeena territories.\" 13 14 Can you fit that into your chronology? 15 A Can I see that, please. By the middle Nass, what are 16 you referring to, what is this person referring to? 17 Q Well, let's make it simple. Let's say anywhere on the 18 Nass, and anywhere on the Skeena, can you fit -- let 19 me -- I'll just rephrase it: 20 21 \"The fur trade seems to have spurred the Gitksan 22 occupation of parts of the Nass and parts 23 of the Skeena territories.\" 24 25 So I haven't got upper or lower or middle, just parts. 26 Can you fit that into your chronology based on the 27 oral histories? 28 A Not unless you're talking about the very upper reaches 29 of the Skeena River. 30 MR. WILLMS: Now, my lord, I'm going to turn to a new document 31 now and start working through a different area so -- 32 THE COURT: Well, what do you think we're facing if we adjourn 33 now, and this when we should adjourn or should we 34 carry on in the hope that perhaps saving an extra day. 35 I'm in counsels' hands, I don't care. 36 MR. WILLMS: I think I can say this, and I spoke to my friends 37 earlier, that if we sat another hour today I don't 38 think we would finish tomorrow. And of course, we 39 have the other difficulty of Mr. Grant getting that 40 material before your lordship, so it does not look 41 like even if we sat another hour we would finish 42 tomorrow. 43 THE COURT: Even if we sat very late tomorrow, if that's 44 convenient? 45 MR. WILLMS: Well \u00E2\u0080\u0094 46 THE COURT: You see, I would be happy to stay another hour if 47 that would do it and another hour tomorrow night. I 17282 S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Willms 1 don't want to press counsel unnecessarily or unduly. 2 MR. WILLMS: Well, my lord, I would anticipate at the rate I'm 3 going that I will be into the afternoon tomorrow, and 4 I know that my friend, Mr. Macaulay, suggested that he 5 would be about half a day. 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 MR. WILLMS: And perhaps Mr. Grant has no re-examination, but 8 I'm sure he doesn't know that yet. 9 MR. GRANT: As I suggested, my lord, I'm certainly amenable, and 10 that we start earlier tomorrow. 11 THE COURT 12 MR. GRANT 13 THE COURT Well, it's just -- Sometimes there's optimism. There's so much trouble in the building, it's just 14 awful. I can't start before 9:30. 15 MR. GRANT: That's fine, my lord. 16 THE COURT: There's serious difficulties downstairs and it's 17 getting worse every day, and I just can't start before 18 9:30. But I don't mind how late we stay and I don't 19 mind staying later now, but I'm in counsels' hands. 20 MR. GRANT: Well, as with most witnesses, this witness is 21 amenable to doing what counsel end up deciding, and if 22 that will assist us to complete tomorrow, I tend to go 23 along with your lordship's view, but of course I don't 24 have control of that, both my friends do, and if they 25 think that makes no difference -- 26 THE COURT: If you say it won't make any difference, Mr. Willms, 27 we might as well adjourn. 28 MR. MACAULAY: I don't think Mr. Willms should take all the 29 blame for that. I say it won't make any difference. 30 THE COURT: I think we'll adjourn until 9:30 tomorrow morning. 31 Thank you. 32 33 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED) 34 35 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 36 a true and accurate transcript of the 37 proceedings herein transcribed to the 38 best of my skill and ability 39 40 41 42 43 Graham D. Parker 44 Official Reporter 45 United Reporting Service Ltd. 46 47"@en . "Trial proceedings"@en . "British Columbia"@en . "KEB529.5.L3 B757"@en . "KEB529_5_L3_B757_1989-06-08_01"@en . "10.14288/1.0019803"@en . "English"@en . "Uukw, Delgam, 1937-"@en . "Indigenous peoples--Canada"@en . "Oral history"@en . "Wet'suwet'en First Nation"@en . "Vancouver : University of British Columbia Library"@en . "Vancouver : United Reporting Service Ltd."@en . "Images provided for research and reference use only. For permission to publish, copy, or otherwise distribute these images, please contact the Courts of British Columbia: http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/"@en . "Original Format: University of British Columbia. Library. Law Library."@en . "[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-06-08]"@en . "Text"@en .