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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-02-25] British Columbia. Supreme Court Feb 25, 1989

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 1226?  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2 FEBRUARY 25, 198 9  3 VANCOUVER, B.C  4  5 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  6 THE COURT: In case we forget later in the day, counsel will be  7 reminded, of course, that I can't sit Monday morning,  8 but we will sit 2:00 o'clock Monday afternoon.  9 THE REGISTRAR: In the Supreme Court of British Columbia,  10 Vancouver, this Saturday, February 25, 1989, calling  11 Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty The Queen at bar.  I  12 caution the witness you are still under oath.  13 MR. GRANT:  14 Q   Doctor, could you turn to page 416 of your report  15 please.  16 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, page?  17 MR. GRANT:  416, My Lord.  18 Q   I just want to refer you at the bottom of that page,  19 doctor, where you state that:  20  21 "In the past, most Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  22 produced goods to be stored for future use  23 in local consumption and for exchange.  24 Today, in their selective participation in  25 the cash economy, many of the people engage  26 in economic activities which are still  27 motivated by desires to get through the  28 present season and prepare for the next.  29 Today, as in the past, this includes always  30 having something on hand with which to pay  31 sudden debts engendered by a death in the  32 family or for trade in needed goods.  This  33 emphasis upon producing for local needs,  34 rather than for capital accumulation has  35 carried through the whole era of  36 cash-cropping of furbearing animals."  37  38 Now, with respect with that last comment, you then  39 go on to refer to David Blackwater as an example.  Can  4 0 you expand on why you state that the emphasis upon  41 producing for local needs rather than capital  42 accumulation has carried through the whole era of  43 cash-cropping in furbearing animals?  44 A  Well, the very morality of the society, as annunciated  45 by the elders that I have talked to, reflects this  46 insofar as the -- they reiterate again and again how  47 important it is to have essential subsistence goods 12269  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  and funds on hand to guard against the rainy day and  the crises that come up in the course of life from  time to time, especially on the occasions of sudden  death.  And informants have told me that people -- the  best ones, those who are most reliable in terms of  having the things that are -- being a source of  necessities are often those who are not out working in  the outside world, but are closest to the land and in  the village, and the old people are the sources of  funds.  A whole lifetime of savings is instilled into  people.  So the older you get, the more you are looked  to as a resource person, even though you may have  nothing much more than a pension cheque, but you are  able to mobilize both funds and foodstuffs and access  to gifts which are necessary for these feasting rounds  in a way that --  Can I refer you to page 418 now. You go on to say,  and this is a question of accumulation of prestige,  then you say:  "Among the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  however ..."  THE COURT:  MR. GRANT:  Q  At the top of the page, My Lord.  Yes.  A  "The motivation as expressed in the values  in the people, is less one of seeking  prestige through wealth accumulation than it  is of building up or maintaining the  reputation of the House group and the  chiefly names, quietly, according to the  laws of the culture, buttressed by one's  kinship group so as to avoid the focus of  the public eye upon the actions of the  individual.  In Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  cultures, to be talked about is not a sign  of honour but rather of shame."  Can you explain why -- the basis for that  conclusion and how that fits in with your  understanding of tribal societies -- of kinship  societies?  Well, in all societies there is a blending of an ethic  of equality and an effort to compete and attain a  certain degree of gain over and above the level of 12270  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 possessions and the level of wealth and the level of  2 standing, if you like, of the social position of your  3 fellows, and there are various mechanisms and  4 combinations for encouraging one facet or the other.  5 Both trends occur in all societies.  And in tribal --  6 and in band societies, of course, there is -- there is  7 always competition over resources, but the social  8 mechanisms that put a ceiling on the competition are  9 quite pronounced, such that anyone who persistently  10 looks like a leader, a big leader, is cut down to size  11 in various ways, or their power is empheral, because  12 the economic base, the access to the resources is such  13 that there is a limit to the amount of accumulation  14 that is possible to sustain that leadership, and then  15 there is a moral boostering to bring the person back  16 down to size.  17 Q   Now, on the bottom of that page you state:  18  19 "The accumulation of goods is an integral  20 part of subsistence strategy based on  21 harvesting diverse resources."  22  23 That is a cross-cultural comment, is it, that  24 first statement, or is it specific at that point to  25 the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en?  26 A   I would say here it's specific to the Gitksan and  27 Wet'suwet'en, because there are ways and means of  28 gaining access to resources in the diverse economy  29 other than through accumulation, but that is usually  30 by having a very complex network of kinship ties to  31 other regions, other ecological zones, so that you can  32 go there and use those resources by your kinship ties.  33 And one example that comes to mind are the Bedouin or  34 Cyrenaica, which is the work that was done by Emrys  35 Peters 25 years ago in the deserts of Libya.  It's a  36 fascinating account of the kinship ties which people  37 consciously make to different ecological regions in  38 the desert.  It's a way of having a safety net against  39 an ecological disaster in one area.  40 Q   Okay.  You go on to say that:  41  42 "The Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en territories  43 have a climate, which unlike most of the  44 Northwest Coast culture area, is propitious  45 for the reliable drying of foodstuffs  46 through the bountiful summer months."  47 12271  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 And there you are relying on, in part, Sybille  2 Haeussler's work and Rod Shelton's work?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   Assuming that their work is correct?  5 A  And also my general familiarity -- as far back as when  6 I was fishing up and down the coast, the coastal  7 people always talked about how they liked the smoked  8 salmon from inland, which I couldn't quite understand  9 why there was any difference, but they said it smokes  10 better, it is less oily, and they had a desire for the  11 inland salmon, so there was a --  12 Q   Is there ethnographic work with the Alaskans which  13 refers to the problems of drying or preserving salmon?  14 A   I cited one reference in this work by Scott and  15 Heller, who were doing an assessment of native diets  16 along the coast of Alaska, both the Indian and the  17 Inuit and Alouette populations, and they found that  18 there was a significant spoilage of the fish that was  19 smoked along the coast.  They didn't draw any  20 conclusions about the implications for this for trade.  21 It was nothing to do with what they were working on,  22 but it impressed me.  23 Q   That's the —  24 A   They were speaking of how to increase or develop  25 indigenous methods of feeding people, and balancing  26 out the diet, due to the rather lamentable diet that  27 the people were existing on in the sixties.  28 Q   Okay.  That was a work called the "Alaska Dietary  29 Survey of 1956 to '61" done for the Department of --  30 the U.S. Department of Health Education and Welfare?  31 A   Uh-huh.  32 Q   Now, I would like to turn you to page 419.  First of  33 all at the top there are -- four lines down you said:  34  35 "Today some game and much salmon  36 continue to be preserved in the traditional  37 manner."  38  39 And this is the -- you have already described you  40 have observed this yourself at the fishing camps?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   Now, going to the next paragraph:  43  44 "While the pre-contact Gitksan and  45 Wet'suwet'en did emphasize storage, as well  46 as the direction of economic life by the  47 chiefs and a system of social ranking, all 12272  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 of these features operated within the limits  2 imposed by a subsistence-oriented kinship  3 economy."  4  5 Now, I don't want you -- you don't have to repeat  6 any evidence you have given, but you can refer back to  7 it if you have to, but what I would like you to  8 explain for His Lordship is what do you mean by the  9 limits imposed by a subsistence-oriented kinship  10 economy?  11 A   Of the limits most obviously are the amount of  12 resources available in their own territory, and  13 your -- the degree of readily accessible resources --  14 resources in other people's territories.  15 Q   Uh-huh.  16 A   So in reference to the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en area,  17 transportation was rather a difficulty.  Things had to  18 be carried on people's backs as far as being able to  19 accumulate large amounts of valued goods from other  20 places.  And this was quite a different situation on  21 the coast, where they had large cedar canoes that  22 travelled up and down the coast and engaged in  23 considerable accumulation and exchange of values from  24 different ecological regions along the coast all the  25 way down to California.  26 Q   Okay.  Now, I would like to go to 419 to 420.  You  27 say:  28  29 "With a good stock of produce stored for  30 winter, the House had a firm foundation for  31 its social and political affairs, and for  32 the fulfillment of its role in the credit  33 and debt relations that still exist between  34 families and Houses."  35  36 And that's one of your conclusions, your opinion,  37 is that right?  38 A   Between families and Houses.  39 Q   Between families and Houses.  40  41 "In this way, the storage of goods  42 underwrote the authority of the chief.  The  43 chiefly authority extended only to the  44 limits of House affairs, although on  45 occasion, when the situation so demanded, a  46 respected House chief could be chosen by a  47 whole community - especially in the western 12273  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 villages - as a spokesperson or  2 representative in dealings with external,  3 non-Gitksan, non-Wet'suwet'en peoples.  When  4 such occasions have been completed, the  5 chief in question is no longer given  6 authority to speak on behalf of anyone  7 beyond his or her local kinship ties."  8  9 Now, I would like you to explain that conclusion  10 and how you have come to it.  11 A  Another feature of tribal societies with -- is that --  12 I'm sorry.  Normally the authority that people -- that  13 chiefs are given is limited to their own kinship  14 grouping, but on special occasions -- I'm sorry, my  15 head is not together this morning.  16 Q   Let me rephrase the question to assist you, doctor.  17 You state that -- and here you are talking about the  18 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en, that chiefly authority  19 extended only to the limits of House affairs.  20 Now, here are you referring to the Gitksan and the  21 Wet'suwet'en when you make that statement?  22 A   Certainly to the Gitksan.  The situation is slightly  23 different with the Wet'suwet'en.  24 Q   Can you explain that difference.  25 A   The Wet'suwet'en are more in the habit and custom of  26 putting forward or -- if the issue is something that  27 involves all of them, they immediately, all their high  28 chiefs come together and discuss the issue and  29 delegate someone to be their spokesperson in  30 negotiations with outsiders, and I have seen this many  31 times in the course of community meetings and  32 deliberations in relation to this court action.  The  33 Wet'suwet'en get together right away and delegate  34 someone to speak on that, whatever the issue is, and  35 there is no issue, that's it.  36 Well, with the Gitksan the situation is much more  37 one chief speaks on behalf of his House, or perhaps a  38 group of closely related Houses, two or three other  39 Houses, and you -- they don't deem to speak on behalf  40 of all of the nations.  But on occasion they will set  41 up a -- they will have an agreement that this sort of  42 arrangement be done as well.  And in Kitwancool they  43 have a president, and this position has been in  44 existence for quite a long time.  45 My understanding is, talking to some of the  46 elders, particularly Solomon Marsden and Peter  47 Williams himself, who is the president, that this 12274  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 agreement was taken as a way of dealing with the  2 non-native outside world in an expeditious way, and in  3 a way that the white people would understand as well,  4 that we have our president, our representative, but  5 it's for very specific functions.  6 Q   Okay.  That -- you are aware of the Duff or the  7 histories, territories and laws of Kitwancool?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And that refers to the role of the president in  10 Kitwancool?  11 A   Yes, it does.  12 Q   Now, as an anthropologist can you explain, in terms of  13 the structures you have described in the last four or  14 five days, can you explain how this concept of each  15 chief speaks for his own House generally in the  16 Gitksan situation, how that fits into the society and  17 to similar societies?  18 A   It's very similar -- I think I mentioned before the  19 whole case of Handsome Lake and other leaders among  20 the Iroquois, they would throw up a leader who would  21 speak on behalf of the whole tribe or in that case the  22 confederacy, but only for very specific purposes and  23 reasons.  And it was the same situation in times of  24 war, a -- one chief, usually the wronged chief, if war  25 was usually perceived from both sides as a  26 retaliation, redressing a dishonourable situation,  27 whoever mounted a raid would be generally the  28 commander, and there would be a highly -- a high  29 devolution of authority, and this was the situation in  30 the Kweese raids on the Kitimat people, the Haisla.  31 Q   The Kweese being a Wet'suwet'en chief?  32 A  Wet'suwet'en chief, yes.  33 Q   Just to be clear, you said the wronged, w-r-o-n-g-e-d,  34 would be the one selected?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Now, then you go on to say that when such occasion  37 have been completed, the chief in question is no  38 longer given authority to speak on behalf of anyone  39 beyond his or her local kinship ties?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Why do you say that?  Do you have any examples that  42 show that?  43 A   It's a feature of the social structure, and that's  44 related to the amount of accumulative -- the  45 possibility of accumulating wealth and redeploying it  4 6 to build up your name and your own personal  47 entrepreneurial standing and abilities.  It's a 12275  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  A  28  THE  COURT  29  30  31  32  33  MR.  GRANT  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  GRANT  36  THE  COURT  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  MR.  GRANT  44  45  THE  COURT  46  47  MR.  GRANT  feature of tribal and band societies, and it's  certainly played out in the local politics on the  reserves right across the country.  Outsiders see it  as impossible factualism, but it's a working out of  this decentralized family groupings in various kinship  combinations, where no one leader will enjoy the  concerted support of the community for a very long  period of time.  Now, I would like to give you a hypothetical, doctor,  and ask if that fits in.  Evidence before the court  has demonstrated that Neil Sterritt, that's Neil John  Sterritt, was president of the Tribal Council for a  period of time when this action was commenced, and he  gave evidence that he was authorized to speak in  public on behalf of the chiefs as the president of the  Tribal Council.  Yes.  Evidence also indicates that when he was ordered by  this court to be examined for discovery on behalf of  all of the chiefs, that he was told by a number of the  chiefs not to describe their adaawk or histories of  their Houses when he gave his discovery.  Now, that  is -- given that sequence of facts, does that -- how  would that scenario fit into what you have just  described, in terms of the kinship society and the  anthropological analysis?  I think that's very consistent.  But isn't it self serving?  It happened long after  the action started.  How can it be relied upon now to  prove an anthropological proposition?  People -- I am  not suggesting that happened here, but people could go  around setting up scenarios and proving them at trial.  Well —  -- a policy consideration would exclude this.  Just a moment, My Lord.  The issue --  Especially when you have an event that took place in  a structure totally foreign to what the author is  describing.  I happen to assume that Mr. Sterritt was  told that he had to answer all proper questions and  deliberate decisions made to define the rules of the  forum that was chosen, and surely that can't be of any  assistance in buttressing an anthropological opinion.  Well, I won't -- I was not tendering it to buttress  an anthropological opinion, My Lord.  You said it's a perfect example of what you are  talking about.  Well, I was asking him to comment on that scenario 12276  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  GRANT:  Q  in terms of the system itself.  THE COURT:  Well, I couldn't put any weight on it, because I  just am quite uncertain what is going on there, and I  would rather not get into it.  I found the whole thing  offensive, but that's my culture.  That's the culture  they chose to enact this little drama in, and I just  don't think it has any demonstrative value.  MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  In light of — I don't think I have  to go further than that.  THE COURT:  I'm sure you don't.  I wish you hadn't gone this  far.  I would like to go to the next section -- I should say  page 421, doctor, "Accumulation, Hierarchy and  Political Power".  I would like to refer you to the  bottom of page 421 where you state, and I will quote:  "The Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en society, taken  as a whole social phenomenon composed of  two linguistic and historical traditions, is  a composite, or a blend of both the  decentralized and egalitarian social values  of the inland Athapaskan lifestyle and the  more centralized hierarchical, and  stratified social values of the north  coast."  Now, can you explain that conclusion?  A  Well, just like the -- I explained the overlay of the  biogeoclimatic zones and the climatic regions of  continental climatic regions.  It seems to me in the  region where the Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en live,  you have a blending of two distinct cultural  groupings, and it's fascinating from an  anthropological point of view, because you have got  features of both of them from the coast, the coastal  features and the inland features meshing right there  in that mountainous region between the coast and the  interior plateau.  And there is a gradation of  coastedness and interiorness that meets in that  general region.  Q   You go on to state that:  "The archaeological record, and the peoples'  oral histories indicate that the inland  culture moved out, south and west toward the  coast after the last deglaciation." 12277  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2 And do you adopt, based on the archaeological  3 record and oral history, do you adopt that as your  4 opinion?  5 MR. WILLMS:  I object, My Lord.  That is an opinion that we have  6 already heard from a ethnoarchaeologist about.  We  7 have got somebody who has tied ethnology and  8 archaeology together.  She's given evidence.  This is  9 an anthropologist, and if he can tie the ethnology  10 together and date it somehow, then my friend can lay  11 the foundation for that and ask the opinion.  But  12 we've already had the archaeologist here, and she has  13 explained the archaeology and ethnology, and we don't  14 need this witness to do it.  He is not qualified.  15 THE COURT:  But this isn't what she said.  16 MR. WILLMS:  No, it isn't, My Lord.  That's exactly the point.  17 And she is the archaeologist, he isn't.  18 MR. GRANT:  Well, first of all my friend — as I understand, my  19 friend made strong objection to the qualification of  20 the archaeologist as an ethnoarchaeologist.  If my  21 friend is withdrawing that objection now, then maybe  22 we can change things, but I understand that there is  23 at large a matter that you are ultimately going to  24 rule on, and you decided to hear the evidence, and at  25 the end of the day that argument will be made.  So I  26 think that my friend cannot say because one person has  27 said it that another person can't.  28 Secondly, I was just going to lead or I was going  29 to —  30 THE COURT:  Well, can you not put it on the basis that this is  31 an assumption that Dr. Daly has made?  I assume that's  32 what it is.  33 MR. GRANT:  Well, I don't think it is.  I think that it may —  34 the sentence may not be framed in a clear way.  I  35 think in part it is and in part it isn't, and I'll  36 break that apart, my Lord.  37 Q   You assume that the archaeological record which you  38 referred to is accurate?  3 9          A   I do.  40 MR. WILLMS:  Let's hear what that is then.  41 THE COURT:  I don't know what the —  42 MR. GRANT:  I am going to come to that, My Lord, if Mr. Willms  43 would give me a moment.  I am coming right to it.  44 Q   And what is -- what are the sources of that  45 archaeological record that you are referring to?  46 A  Well, the overview by Charles Borden is the thing that  47 comes first and foremost to mind. 1227?  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   Yes.  And that's cited -- that's one of the  2 authorities that you cited?  3 A  And Fladmark's overview as well on the prehistory of  4 British Columbia.  5 Q   Yes.  Now —  6 A   The rest of the archaeological sources I looked at  7 were more specific about the actual sites and  8 locations that the specific people had been  9 investigating.  10 Q   Now, you state, for example, you refer in that  11 paragraph just -- and I am going to come back to that  12 statement, but you refer to MacDonald and Inglis, and  13 you state that:  14  15 "MacDonald and Inglis discuss this  16 historical and cultural spread of coastal  17 influences inland over the last 3,000 years.  18 Focusing upon the development of the coastal  19 culture of the Tsimshian, they tend not to  20 address the question of the earlier  21 settlements inland, and the subsequent  22 coastward dispersals, as described in the  23 adaawk of the region and attested to by the  24 archaeological record of continuous  25 habitation for millennia at sites such as  26 Hagwilget and Moricetown ..."  27  28 Now, stopping there.  You are stating that  29 MacDonald and Inglis do not in this analysis of the  30 coastal influences moving inland, do not address the  31 question of earlier settlements inland in their --  32 A   No, they don't.  They certainly -- they both  33 acknowledge that the people claim they came from  34 Temlaxham-Dizkle area, somewhere around the junction  35 of the rivers.  36 Q   Skeena and Bulkley Rivers?  37 A  And the people that George MacDonald was -- whose  38 cultures he was excavating and the Prince Rupert  39 harbour area.  That's the assumption, because all the  40 living culture of the Coast Tsimshian, they say that  41 they came from Temlaxham.  But his main area of  42 investigation and analysis has been following the -- I  43 suppose it's a common feature of most researchers.  44 You work from what you know best, the area you have  45 been working, and then look for its outward influences  46 on the rest of the world.  So he has been more  47 interested in looking at the features of the coast, 12279  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 which are common to interior areas from the  2 perspective that of a diffusion of the coast to the  3 interior, which I think certainly has occurred, but  4 from the oral narratives --  5 Q   These are the ones that you have read?  6 A   Yes.  There was very likely a prior movement out from  7 the interior to the coast, and this is certainly the  8 findings of Charles Borden, after a full lifetime of  9 archaeological investigation in British Columbia.  He  10 wrote this publication shortly before he died.  11 THE COURT:  Well then, that's the assumption that you have  12 made --  13 THE WITNESS:   Well, in anthropological terms I would call it an  14 assumption, but I believe that assumption means  15 something different in this context.  16 THE COURT:  I'm sure -- I'm not sure where the problem is, Mr.  17 Grant.  18 MR. GRANT:  I want to go now —  19 Q   You state that the inland culture moved out south and  20 west toward the coast after the last deglaciation.  21 Have you based that statement on your reading of the  22 oral history and -- such as these adaawk of Barbeau  23 and Beynon?  24 THE COURT:  I thought you said you had reached that on the basis  25 of the overviews of Borden and Fladmark.  26 THE WITNESS:  Yes, and in addition to the whole body of the  27 adaawks and the feelings of some of the comments by  28 Barbeau himself in the body of his work, lead one to  29 this conclusion as well.  3 0 MR. GRANT:  31 Q   You have reviewed the "Men of Medeek", which you say  32 is a fairly extensive adaawk description you described  33 a few days ago?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Do you rely on that as well as the basis for this  36 opinion?  Does that reflect that?  37 A   Oh, it gives a very detailed account of where this  38 chiefly group went from village to village down the  39 Skeena River after leaving the area of Temlaxham and  40 the ecological problems they had.  They first of all  41 would be taken in as guests by the local chiefs of  42 their same clan, the Fireweed Clan, but they didn't --  43 the resources couldn't stand the pressure over time,  44 and they would be asked to leave, or there would be a  45 fight that would break out and they would have a  46 battle and then leave, until they found a piece of  47 land which was unoccupied. 12280  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  THE COURT  29  30  31  MR. GRANT  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  47  Well, just to be clear, do you rely on that particular  adaawk, detailed adaawk for this opinion?  Yes.  Okay.  I am sorry, I have relied on a number of things,  but —  Okay.  Well, you have relied on the adaawk, you have  relied on Fladmark and Borden, and that's an  assumption that you made that they are accurate in  their reports?  Yes.  But you have relied on your own review of adaawk and  including the "Men of Medeek".  Is there anything else  that you have relied on in forming this opinion  yourself?  Well, the views of the people in the community.  They  are very clear about the movement -- the movement from  the interior, and in some cases some of their oral  narratives speak of coming out under the ice through  the glaciers, coming down the Stikene River and onto  the coast.  I just want to refer you to this.  I am not going -- I  am going to tab 2 of this document book.  Is that the  Medeek adaawk that you have referred to, or the typed  script of Medeek adaawk?  Yes, it is .  Okay.  :  Now, I don't know if you've already told me, Mr.  Grant, but if you have you can remind me.  Of what is  this the adaawk?  Medeek is what, a House?  This is an adaawk of one House group; is that right  doctor?  Yes, Medeek refers to the main crest of that House  group.  And which House is that?  It is the House of -- he explained it right at the  beginning.  He says "Neas-D-Hok is my name", and he  says "It's the adaawk of Neas-Hiwas."  Of Kitselas?  Of Kitselas, yes.  They ended up, after -- he recounts  here, they began their existence as a House in  Temlaxham, and as happens in many of the adaawks, you  get the impression that these are the only people  really in existence.  He said they were the chief of  the whole of Temlaxham, but that's the general view,  because everyone speaks from the position of their own 12281  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Clan and their own House, because they don't have the  2 authority in the community to speak for the whole  3 nation.  4 THE COURT:  All right.  Is it Niist, N-i-i-s-t?  5 MR. GRANT:  If you look at Roman numeral IX, My Lord, the  6 prologue, it says "Neas-D-Hok", and there it's  7 N-e-s-s - D - H-o-k.  8 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, N-e —  9 MR. GRANT:  s-s- - D - H-o-k.  10  11 " ...is my name and I am the head chief of  12 the Grizzly Bear people of Kitselas.  I have  13 power on both sides of the big canyon."  14  15 And then the House is referred to in the second  16 paragraph where he says:  17  18 "When I was a boy my grandfather who was  19 Neas-Hiwas",  20  21 THE COURT:  How do you spell Neas?  22 MR. GRANT:  N-e-a-s, and H-i-w-a-s.  And I'm sorry, where I say  23 said Neas-D-Hok, it should be N-e-a-s not N-e-s-s.  24  25 "And he taught me the history of Medeek."  26  27 Q   So would it be correct to say that this adaawk is an  28 adaawk that describes the migration of this House  29 group whose origins are Temlaxham, that is place of  30 origin is the same place as the Gitksan?  Is that how  31 it is described?  32 A   That's correct.  33 Q   And that this House group, after long migrations,  34 ended at Kitselas?  35 A   Yes.  36 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  My Lord, I understand that this has been  37 referred to on many occasions, and --  38 THE COURT:  Well, its been referred to all over the place, but  39 its never been --  40 MR. GRANT:  Its never been tendered as an exhibit.  41 THE COURT:  No, and its never been considered from the point of  42 view admissibility.  43 MR. GRANT:  Well, I would ask that this document be marked as an  44 exhibit, as it's one of the documents in the same  45 range as -- I will -- I think ultimately we will be in  46 a position -- ultimately at some stage we would argue  47 that it would be an adaawk that would come within the 12282  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 framework of your ruling, but I don't think it's  2 necessary to make that argument now.  It can go in an  3 adaawk relied upon by Dr. Daly.  4 THE COURT:  Well, it can go in as a source of research or item  5 of research.  6 MR. GRANT:  Yes, I appreciate that, yes, because of your ruling  7 on adaawk.  I appreciate that, My Lord.  8 THE COURT:  Next you exhibit number is 898, and is that at Tab  9 2?  10 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes.  11  12 (EXHIBIT NO. 898 - TAB 2 - WITNESS BOOK  13 III - MEDEEK ADAAWK -RESEARCH SOURCE OF DR.  14 DALY)  15  16 MR. WILLMS:  My Lord, one thing that should be noted, there  17 appears to be handwriting throughout this.  It looks  18 like it's Neil Sterritt's copy from the first page,  19 but there is handwriting in there, which I am sure  20 isn't part of whatever this is.  21 THE COURT:  No.  All right.  I shall disabuse my mind of  22 whatever it says.  2 3 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  24 Q   That -- from your knowledge is any of the handwriting,  25 was it on the original or --  26 A   It was on the copy I saw in the Tribal Council  27 library.  28 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  I concede that it — My Lord, I don't think  29 any of the handwriting is corrections.  I think the  30 only thing would be if there is some typographical  31 correction.  I don't think there is though.  32 THE WITNESS:   I don't think there is at all.  33 MR. GRANT:   So the handwriting should be disregarded.  Yes, My  34 Lord, the best way of dealing with it in part is to  35 take the entire first page out, which is the cover,  36 and then you still have the title page there.  That  37 would be more appropriate.  38 MR. WILLMS:  Well, My Lord, I would rather have it in just the  39 way it is with us disabusing ourselves of the  40 handwriting, except to note that it is Neil Sterritt.  41 MR. GRANT:  Well, I am not prepared to make that admission that  42 it's Neil Sterritt's.  I don't know whose handwriting  43 it is, and I think it should be deleted.  If my friend  44 doesn't want the handwriting he referred to, that page  45 should be taken out.  If he wants it referred to, then  46 he should have made his objection.  47 THE COURT:  I think in this connection the party tendering the 12283  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 exhibit is dominus litus, and if he doesn't want to  2 tender this page, I think can be deleted.  3 MR. WILLMS:  If that's the case, My Lord, I object to my friend  4 cherry picking.  So if he is going to take the page  5 out with handwriting on it, he should take all of them  6 out with handwriting on them.  I don't think that he  7 can pick and chose his way through the document.  I  8 think he should go one way or the other.  9 THE COURT:  Where is another item with handwriting?  10 MR. WILLMS:  There is handwriting on -- underlining on 13, there  11 is handwriting on 141.  There is handwriting on 176.  12 THE COURT:  There is an underlining of a word here, isn't there,  13 of 13?  14 MR. WILLMS:  I am just looking at alterations, My Lord.  And  15 then there is on the other pages that I mentioned,  16 184, and then on page 134, which is describing the  17 wars of Medeek and the feud, somebody has very  18 helpfully put in "about 1440 to 1450" on the first  19 page to help us all date this.  Now, my friend should  20 take all of the handwriting pages out or leave them  21 all in, subject to the comment that Your Lordship  22 made.  23 MR. GRANT:  My Lord, I appreciate when you say you are not going  24 to refer to it, that's fine.  I thought the cover page  25 was sort of something that was -- clearly would be in  26 the realm of hearsay, and there was just no necessity  27 to have it in.  I have no difficulty with ultimately  28 replacing any pages with handwriting in them,  29 substituting them with clear pages, if that's  30 necessary.  31 THE COURT:  Well, in the first page, there is a second one which  32 is exactly the same.  33 MR. GRANT:  That's why I suggested it.  34 THE COURT:  Without marks on it, with slightly different typing  35 but exactly the same wording, I think.  36 MR. WILLMS:  My Lord, may I just say one thing.  My friend has  37 tendered this as something that -- the basis for the  38 admissibility is that this is a document that the  39 witness reviewed, and if that's the basis for the  40 admissibility of this document, then the document that  41 the witness reviewed should go in in its entirety in  42 my submission.  43 THE COURT:  Well, if you can take that first page off, you have  44 got the document in its entirety.  45 MR. WILLMS:  I don't know how the notes on the front of the page  46 affected this witness's views about how old --  47 THE COURT:  You are the one that didn't want them in.  You 12284  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE COURT  MR. FREY:  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  didn't want the note -- you made a reservation about  the notations.  WILLMS:  That is in light, My Lord, of my friend's  discussion of the adaawk, that is, that those hand  notes cannot be part of -- if it is an adaawk, that  they clearly can't be part of that, but in terms of  the basis that my friend sought to tender this, as  something that the witness reviewed.  Well, I certainly wish this was a more important  point.  Mr. Frey, do you want to make a contribution  to this?  No submission whatsoever, My Lord.  I think we will take out that first page and I'll  give it back to Mr. Grant, and I will -- if Mr. Willms  insists, Mr. Grant will replace the pages with  notations on them with clear pages.  Thank you, My Lord.  I will await for my friend to  clarify with me outside of court.  Now, to go on, My Lord.  Now, on page 423, doctor, you  rely on -- of your report again -- you rely on  Drucker, and you refer and quote Drucker specifically,  and where he states that according -- he states, after  referring to certain adaawk, referring to Temlaxham,  he says halfway down in that quote:  "It seems reasonable to accept these tales  in a general sense.  The Tsimshian had to  reach their historic home by moving either  from the interior or along the coast, and  there is no evidence to support the  possibility of coastal migration.  After  suffering ennumerable vicissitudes, the  ancestral Tsimshian began to establish  themselves in villages below the Skeena  River Canyon.  These villages were associate  with salmon fishing grounds on streams  entering the Skeena, and continued to be  important economic sites to the Tsimshian  until modern times."  Now, with respect to -- with respect to that  statement, do you adopt that statement as your own  opinion?  MR. WILLMS:  I object, My Lord.  Its got to be an assumption.  THE COURT:  In your discipline, Dr. Daly, is this an assumption  you have made?  THE WITNESS:  No, this is not an assumption.  This is something 12285  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  which is parallel with my findings, and it's -- it's  something which people who work in the general area,  they cite Drucker very frequently, because he makes  sense in an overview -- in an overview context of  their own data from their own findings in the field in  the different cultures.  It's very consistent.  It's  not an assumption, it's something based on our common  experience as part of the discipline, part of our  training.  THE COURT:  But isn't this an archaeological opinion?  MR. GRANT:  No, Drucker was an anthropologist, My Lord.  THE COURT:  And wasn't he accepting what archaeologists had  found?  THE WITNESS:  He was -- his opinion was informed by it to some  extent, but his main work was participant observation  on the coast looking at the comparative work of others  before him and reading all of the adaawks and the  Barbeau Beynon material.  He was familiar with all of  that.  THE COURT:  So what you are just telling me is that your  anthropological opinion is the same as Druckers?  WITNESS:  More or less.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  THE COURT  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  GRANT  COURT  GRANT:  COURT:  GRANT:  Q  A  On this point.  Yes, on this point.  And, My Lord, just the introduction is that Drucker  comments on the coastal migration of the Tsimshian in  the oral records as follows, and Drucker here is  relying on the oral record, which is -- and this  witness also has referred to the oral record.  All right.  Well, I am going to treat, for the  moment anyway, this as an anthropological opinion,  coincides in this point with Drucker.  Yes.  Based upon oral -- what he calls the oral record.  ]  suppose he means oral information or information  received orally.  Maybe I can clarify that with him.  Or based orally or based on oral recollections of  some kind.  Well, you state oral record.  What are you referring  to there?  It refers to the living oral record and the written  form.  The written form is basically the body of  Barbeau Beynon material.  There is a few that are not  within that group, such as the Medeek adaawk that we  just talked about that have come to light separately. 12286  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   Just one point about that Medeek adaawk, doctor, while  2 we are on it.  Did you rely on any of the handwritten  3 notations on the copy that you looked at in terms of  4 your conclusions?  5 A   I wasn't really aware of them until this interaction  6 here, except that I did note that the age of whoever  7 had written that on the front page, but it didn't have  8 any bearing on anything.  This chief isn't even in the  9 Gitksan area.  It was just the content of the adaawk  10 in terms of the relations between the people on the  11 land which I thought was very interesting.  12 Q   So you relied on the typed script of the adaawk --  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Now, on page -- in page 424 you state in the middle  15 paragraph:  16  17 "On the basis of these findings  ..."  18  19 And those findings -- you are referring to  20 archaeological findings that you have referred to  21 previously; is that right?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And that's -- you assume that they are correct.  24  25 "... and the sequences of events that occur  26 in the oral histories, it is safe to  27 conclude that trading and raiding occupied  28 an important role in the socio-economic life  29 of the Northwest Coast in general, and even  30 in the more easterly hinterlands during the  31 last three thousand years.  The development  32 of trade relations in the region has  33 probably been unfolding during this whole  34 lengthy period."  35  36 And that is an opinion that you have reached from  37 your own research as well as a reliance on the  38 archaeological record?  39 A   Yes, that's correct.  40 Q   And when you say the easterly hinterlands, what are  41 you referring to?  42 A   I am referring to the area adjacent to the coastal  43 belt of cultures, the peoples in the mountains and on  44 the edge of the interior plateau.  So that in, say, in  45 relation to Bella Coola it would be the adjacent  46 Carrier peoples on the edge of the Chilcotin Plateau.  47 In relation to the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en area it would 12287  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 be the -- that region in relation to the peoples of  2 the mouth of the Nass and the mouth of the Skeena and  3 to some extent the mouth of the Stikene, and the  4 relationship between the people at the mouth of the  5 Stikene, the very hierarchically organized coastal  6 people with the Tahltan and Tset'saut and other  7 interior groups of that region, and farther south the  8 Thompson people with the coastal people in this  9 general area.  10 Q   You then go on in your report to deal with the  11 proto-contact period.  And you state on page 426 and  12 427, the middle paragraph:  13  14 "Protection of trade privilege, trade routes  15 and partners entailed the expenditure of  16 hospitality to build and renew trust and  17 credit, as well as the readiness to form  18 alliances to take up arms to defend trading  19 privileges."  20  21 You then say at the bottom of that page:  22  23 "One such spiral of trading and raiding  24 appears to have been in process in  25 proto-contact and early contact times."  26  27 And that is -- just a moment.  And that is a  28 conclusion that you've -- that is your opinion?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And on what do you rely in support of that opinion?  31 A  Well, a lot of it is from my reading of the adaawk  32 histories.  There is a real tempo of raiding and  33 trading in the period which -- where you begin to get  34 interweavings of European goods being mentioned, for  35 example, in the later -- in the later part of this  36 upsurge of trading and raiding that's reflected in the  37 stories that are told.  38 Q   Okay.  39 A  And they have been sequenced that way in the volumes  40 that I looked at by Barbeau himself.  41 Q   Okay.  So in the way -- Barbeau sequencing in those  42 four volumes was -- he sequenced them in a time order?  43 A   Chronological order.  44 Q   Okay.  45 A   He didn't take sections of adaawk and put them in any  46 linear fashion, but he took each adaawk and assessed  47 the events a long time continuum, and then seemed to 122?  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 follow that format for presenting them.  2 Q   Okay.  Now, I would like to go onto page 427 in which  3 you state that:  4  5 "The trade practices of the coastal peoples  6 affected the inland social life in the same  7 way that it affected the coast, but to a  8 lesser degree.  In terms of pre-European  9 trade the coastal peoples obviously looked  10 on the inlanders as important but  11 exploitable trade partners."  12  13 And then you refer to "Oberg".  Now, the first  14 statement, why do you conclude that the trade  15 practices affected inland social life to a lesser  16 degree, that is the trade practice of the coastal  17 people?  18 A   I gave my reasons a bit earlier.  The amount of  19 accumulable wealth and the ease of transportation were  20 much less in the mountainous regions, and that's quite  21 common in other regions of the world as well.  If,  22 however, the coastal people are subsumed by another  23 power, because they are also accessible to attack from  24 the sea, then the inland peoples can come to an  25 ascendancy as brokers between the new force on the  26 coast and the hinterland.  That was the situation with  27 the Ashanti I mentioned before, and in a way with the  28 Iroquois as well between -- who worked in the hills of  29 upstate New York, and they were controlling trade  30 between the coast and the Great Lakes basin.  31 Q   Why do you conclude that the coastal peoples looked on  32 the inlanders as important but exploitable trading  33 partners?  34 A  Well, it's a general finding of cross-culturally,  35 anthropologists looking at economies find that one  36 cannot really exploit one's relatives to a significant  37 degree.  If one is going to exploit one's relatives,  38 one has to do it in terms of the kinship ideology and  39 the give and take of the local community.  So to turn  40 a profit through trade, as we know it, you have got to  41 go into another social context.  And one way is to go  42 somewhere where you are not so closely related.  But  43 again you are going to another kinship society, so you  44 have to use ties of kinship to initiate your trade and  45 exchange, but if you take advantage of people there,  46 there is less repercussions for your own local social  47 relations than if you try to do it in your home area. 12289  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   You state on page 430 that:  2  3 "As a whole, the Gitksan have retained more  4 of their pre-European cultural past than  5 have their coastal neighbours for the coast  6 had been subject to more missionary activity  7 and governmental administration by the  8 non-Native society."  9  10 And that is a conclusion that you have reached?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And why do you -- why do you come to that conclusion?  13 A   Because, as I said yesterday, the documentation of the  14 fur trade reports and the ships' captains and ships'  15 logs at the end of the 18th and early part of the 19th  16 century attest to the use of the European trade goods  17 in the existing economy and system of social status  18 seeking and so on.  It didn't -- there was no evidence  19 of it breaking down.  The new features of the new  20 economy were fed right into an existing system, and  21 this led to the -- it appears to have led to a -- its  22 whole inflation of the feasting system and the  23 development of the potlatch and the bloating of the  24 potlatch processes into something that it hadn't been  25 before.  26 Q   Where did that occur?  27 A  Along the coast.  28 Q   Okay.  Then you state on the bottom of page 430 that:  29  30 "It is unlikely that the Gitksan and  31 Wet'suwet'en economy in itself could have  32 generated the accumulated volume of  33 subsistence trade goods (mainly foods and  34 hides) necessary to set off such a spiral of  35 trading and raiding characteristic of the  36 coast in proto-contact times.  However, the  37 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en, like other inland  38 peoples adjacent to the Northwest Coast,  39 became enveloped in these spirals of trading  40 that flooded north and south along the sea  41 coast, and then inland along the arterial  42 rivers and the capillaries of trails that  43 connected villages from the coast, for the  44 Coastal Range to the Interior Plateau and  45 onto the Rocky Mountains."  46  47 Now, this is a conclusion that you have arrived at 12290  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 from your research?  2 A   It is, yes.  3 Q   Now, why do you say that it's unlikely that the  4 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en economy in itself could have  5 generated an accumulated volume of subsistence trade  6 goods necessary to set off such a spiral of trading  7 and raiding?  8 A   Given the rough estimation of population in the  9 Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en area, the goods available for  10 trade, there wasn't a very big margin that would have  11 been available for enormous -- significantly large  12 accumulation for expenditure in trade.  They were  13 needed for the local round of subsistencece activities  14 in the course of the year, as I discussed earlier.  15 Q   Okay.  If I can go to page 435.  The bottom paragraph,  16 doctor, on that page you state:  17  18 "Still, the chief obtains a modicum of power  19 and influence through the proper hosting of  20 feasts, but this standing is seldom allowed  21 to build up and accumulate for more than  22 lifetime of the individual chief."  23  24 And then you go on to say:  25  26 "This local authority and this influence by  27 example are unable to expand beyond the  28 boundaries of the kinship group and  29 effectively lead to the consolidation of  30 power in a broader and wider arena.  31 Attempts to do so, even at the height of the  32 so-called fur-trade era met with failure."  33  34 And this is a conclusion that you've actually  35 referred to, the reasoning for it in your explanation  36 of the hierarchy?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Is that right?  39 A   Yes.  4 0 Q   And —  41 A  And in this region it's also impeded by the fact that  42 these are matrilineal societies which have their own  43 checks and balances against nodules of power going  44 from father to son over the generations.  45 Q   Okay.  Well, in fact from your reading of adaawk you  46 have seen examples of coastal chiefs, there are adaawk  47 that show the coastal chiefs that did develop a 12291  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  Q  hierarchy.  A   Yes.  Yes.  Q   And this would be Legaix?  A   Particularly Legaix.  Classic example among the  Tsimshian.  Q   Okay.  I will return to that in the next chapter on  trade, doctor.  Now, going to page 437 -- 37 -- sorry, if I could  just ask you.  I won't read it, but if you refer on  page 436 to Eric Wolf with respect to -- in support of  this proposition as well as the oral history; is that  right?  Yes.  I would ask the Court to note that section.  I don't  see the point in -- I won't read it, My Lord.  Thank you.  On page 437 you state:  "Since the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en do not  possess institutions which reinforce chiefly  exploitation of non-chiefly persons, they  have never been at ease with enduring  hierarchical leaders."  That is your opinion?  A   Yes.  Q   You then go on to make an analogy with the Iroquois,  which you already referred to in your oral evidence?  A   Yes.  Q   And that whole description goes, My Lord, goes from  page 438 through to 441.  And then at page 442 you  conclude:  "It is my opinion that long before the  arrival of Europeans, the large summer  labour force of Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  people who gathered along the river ..."  Then you say:  "... much as they do today ... required a  very large territory to fulfill its overall  winter needs (that is, in addition to stored  summer foodstuffs).  Over-population led to  resource depletion, famine conditions and  social upheaval as recorded in oral 12292  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 histories like the Madeek narrative of the  2 Giskaast dispersal from Temlaxamid."  3  4 Now, stopping there.  You are referring there to  5 the Medeek, the "Men of Medeek" that's just been  6 tendered this morning?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Exhibit 897, I believe.  Now, you then state:  9  10 "The territories claimed by the Gitksan and  11 Wet'suwet'en in their court action - about  12 20,000 square miles - with an estimated  13 population of 10,000, would approximate the  14 human population density that hunting  15 societies in other parts of the world have  16 been able to sustain; two to five persons  17 per square mile."  18  19 And you rely there on Birdsell and Professor Lee.  20 Now, first of all, is Birdsell -- who was Birdsell?  21 A   Birdsell has done -- is an anthropologist who has done  22 a certain amount of work among the aboriginees of  23 Australia.  Richard Lee we already referred to.  24 Q   Yes.  25 A   I came to this realization of two to five from  26 Professor Lee, when he said to me he was --  27 Q   Just a moment.  Did he publish anything relating to  28 these figures?  That is, did Professor Lee publish  29 anything of which he relied on Birdsell?  30 MR. WILLMS:  Maybe my friend could ask whether this personal  31 communication has now been published.  32 MR. GRANT:  Well, maybe I can deal with it.  33 THE COURT:  Well, does it matter -- surely the question is, did  34 anybody publish it and is he reliable.  35 MR. WILLMS:  Well -- yes, but we have got one publication,  36 Birdsell on the aborignees of Australia, and now there  37 is Richard Lee personal communication.  Now, if that  38 hasn't been published, we don't need to get into at  39 all what Richard Lee said to the witness.  40 MR. GRANT:  And I am not, My Lord.  I asked the witness, when he  41 started to describe that, if he would refer to any  42 reference of it.  But I think I can even go back to  43 the step that you raised.  44 Q   This calculation of two to five persons per square  45 mile has been published by Birdsell; is that right?  46 A   It has, and —  47 THE COURT:  But, doctor, surely that makes a huge difference 12293  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  what your climate is and what your vegetation is and  what your food supplies are, doesn't it?  Surely there  is a comparison here which is not much assistance.  THE WITNESS:  This is what they find statistically around the  world, though, with hunting and gathering societies,  that the level of technology has a lot to do with the  population density across the face of the land, and  people tend to spread themselves out according to the  worst possible conditions, that they may have good  returns in one season and poor returns in the other,  so they budget their relationship between people and  land in relation to that.  THE COURT:  Are you saying that a two to five ratio in tropical  Australia equates to a two to five ratio in northern  British Columbia, where the ground is covered with  snow for half the year and temperatures are in the  very low range for a good part of that year?  THE WITNESS:  Yes, but in Australia much of the area is of a  desert nature, so that cancels out against the  tropical portion.  THE COURT:  Is it any use at all to know that they happen to  have a two to five ratio?  THE WITNESS:  Well, it's quite an important index in  cross-cultural studies among anthropologists of an  ecological bent.  THE COURT:  He says oh, look, here is a comparison, therefore we  will base a proposition on it.  My own common sense  tells me that that's a meaningless comparison, but if  you tell me as an anthropologist that that's the sort  of thing you rely on it, I have to accept that  opinion.  THE WITNESS:  Well, when I was doing work on historical  reconstruction of the Huron society, I relied on an  archaeological estimate of 20 people per square mile,  and Professor Lee immediately said to me, well, this  signals an entirely different social structure,  because of the population density.  It's used as a  ready reckoner for what you can expect to find in  terms of the complexity of the society, the density of  the population on the face of the land.  THE COURT:  Well, if that's your opinion.  I want to make sure  that you really mean that.  Maybe I can -- if I may pursue it.  Yes.  MR.  THE  MR.  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  The Huron example you gave, that's an agricultural  society? 12294  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Now, this Birdsell reference, the two to five persons  3 per square mile for hunting societies, has that been  4 relied upon by other anthropologists studying other  5 hunting societies or studying other societies in  6 concluding that they are hunting societies?  7 A   That's one of the features.  I mean, it's not the only  8 feature that you would use, but yes, it's part of the  9 data that you would use to establish the general  10 contours of the nature of that type of society.  11 Q   Okay.  Do you recall -- can you think of others who  12 have relied on this as one indicator, as you say?  13 A  Well, there is a volume of papers edited by David  14 Damass, an anthropologist at McMaster University,  15 talking about the hunting groups right across northern  16 Canada, and it's very much -- the population density  17 question is very much at issue in that, as I recall.  18 Off the top of my head I don't know.  But there is a  19 volume edited by Richard Lee and Irvine Devore called  20 "Man the Hunter", and it's dealt with in a number of  21 articles in that book as well.  And it's dealt with in  22 the whole field of ecology and human geography as  23 well.  It's quite a common one.  24 Q   And in this volume about northern hunting societies in  25 Canada, is the two to five persons per square mile  26 relied upon for analysis of hunting societies?  27 A   I believe it is, yes.  28 Q   And in the articles in "Man the Hunter" is the two to  29 five persons per square mile relied upon for -- as an  30 indicator of hunting societies?  31 A   Yes, I think -- I am not sure whether Birdsell has an  32 article in there or not.  He may very well.  33 Q   Now, you go on to describe the basis upon which you  34 assume the population of the Gitksan and the  35 Wet'suwet'en; is that right?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And you set that out at page 442 and 443?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And then you go on to say that, on the bottom of page  40 443, My Lord:  41  42 "With such a population - 10,000+ - there  43 would have been considerable demands placed  44 on the local resources by the people of the  45 region - both directly for harvesting  46 foodstuffs and materials, and indirectly for  47 exchange of goods with inland and coastal 12295  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 neighbours, respectively to the east and the  2 west.  Despite the fact that for at least  3 part of each year the bulk of the population  4 lived clustered in a number of fishing  5 centres in the Hazelton Variant of the  6 Interior Cedar-Hemlock biogeoclimatic zone,  7 the resources located there would not  8 sustain this many people.  In other words,  9 the population required a territory of much  10 vaster proportions to maintain itself  11 through all seasons and all potential human  12 and ecological crisis.  It also required a  13 clearcut system of control, ownership and  14 management of territorial resources, due to  15 the human demands placed upon these lands  16 and resources."  17  18 Now, just breaking that opinion down, can you  19 explain why you concluded that the resources within  20 the Hazelton variant would not have sustained 10,000  21 people?  22 A  Well, certainly the villages within this variant  23 contained the very important cedar and the constricted  24 rivers where the salmon were caught.  25 Q   Yes.  26 A   But I don't -- it is my opinion that people could not  27 live on just the salmon as a foodstuff.  28 Q   Yes.  29 A   They required access to a variety, quite a wide  30 variety of other species at all different elevations.  31 A smaller population that just used the surrounding  32 areas, the sides of the valley, perhaps, would have --  33 could have survived and may have at some point.  I  34 don't know.  But to have a balanced diet and a  35 balanced material culture with, grant it, some trade  36 from the interior and from the coast to supply more  37 diversity and/or certain luxury goods and certain  38 alternatives to the diet, it's my opinion that it  39 required these hunting territories, much like the  40 hunting territories of the adjacent Athabaskan  41 regions, fairly large regions which took into account  42 all the different ecological zones at the different  43 altitudes.  44 Q   Okay.  Now, then you say at the end of that statement  45 that it required a system --  46  47 "A clearcut system of control, ownership and 12296  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 management of territorial resources due to  2 human demands placed upon these lands and  3 resources."  4  5 Can you explain why you have come to that  6 conclusion?  7 A   I raised before the work of Frank Speck in Ontario.  8 Q   Yes.  9 A  With regard to the husbanding of resources of the  10 peoples of Northern Ontario.  It's the same concept,  11 as I see it, and there is a citation here from another  12 writer from B.C. studies, who has reviewed all of the  13 literature on this field about the nature of land  14 holding in relation to the fur trade right across  15 Canada.  16 Q   Okay.  Now, you state there that Ball -- this is  17 Georgina Ball?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And first of all maybe if you could look at tab 1 of  20 the third document book I have given you.  Is that the  21 article upon which you are quoting from?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And who is Georgina Ball?  What is her background?  24 A   I don't know her background.  25 Q   Okay.  It indicates at the bottom that she -- footnote  26 one that she's --  27  28 "This is an extract of the author's M.A.  29 thesis, A History of Wildlife Management  30 Practices in British Columbia to 1918,  31 University of Victoria, 1981."  32  33 That -- do you know what she does now?  34 A   I believe she works in some capacity as a government  35 researcher in Victoria.  36 Q   Okay.  Now, the quote in your report is from the first  37 page of that, isn't it?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And she is referring, amongst others, to the Gitksan  40 group and the Wet'suwet'en group?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   Okay.  43 A  A part of the quote is from the footnote.  44 Q   Okay.  Just a moment, just so that we can be clear on  45 that.  Well, that quote appears to be all on the first  46 page, doctor.  I think there is another quote --  47 A   This actual quote, yes, but I also -- I believe I 12297  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 cited another passage.  2 MR. GRANT:   We'll come to that.  Possibly that could be marked  3 as the next exhibit, My Lord.  4 THE COURT:  8 99.  5 THE REGISTRAR:  899, Tab 1.  6  7 (EXHIBIT NO. 899 - TAB 1 - WITNESS BOOK  8 THESIS EXTRACT OF GEORGINA BALL)  9  10 MR. GRANT:  I am not going to — I'll just refer you to that  11 reference, My Lord.  12 Q   Now, page 445 you state your conclusion, and I'm  13 looking at halfway down there, you say:  14  15 "In other words production and distribution  16 activities in the course of the annual cycle  17 of the economy dictated, in general, the  18 overall scope of Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  19 territories and the system of land tenure  20 with its particular type of kin-based  21 ownership."  22  23 Then you state, after referring to Sheila  24 Robinson, and she is a -- you reviewed her report,  25 which was a report of the defendants, the provincial  26 defendants; is that right?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   After referring to her report you state:  29  30 "My view is, however, that indeed this body  31 of rules did exist and was an essential  32 feature of the economic and ecological  33 survival, and of pre-contact regional trade  34 and social interaction."  35  36 And that's your conclusion?  37 A   That's right.  38 Q   And in support of that you -- and I am just going to  39 refer you to these, My Lord.  I don't want to take the  40 time to read them.  On page 446 you refer to the  41 archaeological record?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And you rely on that and assume that that is accurate?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And just to say this, that archaeology is a branch of  46 the field of anthropology, isn't it?  47 A   Yes, it's one of the four main branches of 1229?  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  anthropology.  As an anthropologist, as a social cultural  anthropologist in that field, archaeology is referred  to and relied on --  We all have some training to varying degrees in  archaeology.  I have taken some introduction work and  have participated in some excavation work under  direction of the archaeologists, but I don't profess  to be an expert in it by any means.  :  I don't see any reference to archaeology in page  446.  :  That next paragraph:  "The fur trade could only have intensitifed  a process which had long been in place -  which, according to the archaeologicl record  had in fact been developing over the past  two to three millennia."  WILLMS:  My Lord, I am assuming that that means Fladmark and  Borden, because that's what the witness said  archaeological record meant earlier on.  I don't know  if it's any different this time around.  That's not what the witness said archaeological  record was. He relied on the archaeologist. The  archaeological record is much broader.  COURT:  What is the archaeological record upon which you  relied on for this passage on page 446, please?  MR.  MR. GRANT  THE  MR.  GRANT:  Q   Which authors?  A   I would add George MacDonald to the list.  Q   So Borden, Fladmark and MacDonald.  Any others?  A   Sylvia Albright.  Q   Yes.  Coupland?  A   Coupland's work, yes.  I am trying to think of --  THE COURT:  Allaire.  THE WITNESS:  The work at Namu.  The name slipped my mind for  the moment.  THE COURT:  I am going to take the morning adjournment now.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will recess.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A SHORT RECESS) 12299  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO BE  3 A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE  4 PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE BEST OF MY  5 SKILL AND ABILITY.  6  7  8 LORI OXLEY  9 OFFICIAL REPORTER  10 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 12300  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO MORNING RECESS)  39  40 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  41 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant?  42 MR. GRANT:  43 Q   Thank you, my lord.  44 You thought this over at the break, and as well as  45 Borden, Fladmark, MacDonald and Albright, you rely on  46 the -- Ames and Coupland --  47 A   Yes. 12301  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   -- in respect to your report?  And also there was an  2 archaeologist who did finds and digs at Namu whose  3 name you can't quite recollect, but you rely on that  4 as well?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   Now, as well as -- that's the archaeological record on  7 which you rely.  You also rely, in support of your  8 opinion, that the "body of rules governing access to  9 resources or for extensive and defined areas of land  10 for their exploitation", existed, and "was an  11 essential feature of the economic and ecological  12 survival, and of pre-contact regional trade and social  13 interaction."  14 I'm referring to the top of page 446, my lord.  15 You rely as well, in support of that proposition, on  16 anthropological work; is that right?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And you rely on the work of Dyen and Aberle?  19 A   Yes.  Well, that's not directly related to this  20 proposition.  21 Q   Okay.  Rosman and Rubel?  22 A   Rosman and Rubel and Dyen and Aberle is a different --  23 it indirectly supports these propositions, but it's  24 not directly relevant here.  25 Q   Okay.  And you rely on the ethnohistorical record in  26 support of this proposition?  27 A   Oh, certainly.  Yes.  28 Q   And there you are referring to Harmon?  29 A   Yeah, the descriptions that the fur traders both at  30 sea and on the land, on the coast and inland, gave of  31 the nature of the economy and the use of the land at  32 the time of contact.  33 Q   Okay.  And -- okay.  And you also rely on the work of  34 Eric Wolf in support of this?  35 A   I do.  Yes.  36 Q   And Fisher, Robin Fisher?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   La Violette?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   "Struggle for Survival".  And Ruby and Brown, "The  41 Chinook Indians"?  42 A   That's right.  That's quite a good historical account  43 of the whole development of the fur trade along the  44 coast.  You know, the Chinook language was the lingua  45 franca for the whole nineteenth century virtually, and  46 also the ethnographic accounts of the whole -- of the  47 whole region; Garfield's work on the Tsimshian, 12302  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Swanton on the Haida, Oberg and Krauss, their work  2 among the Tlingit, De Laguna in the north, the work of  3 Robert Adlam on the Tahltan; various studies in the  4 general region, Mcllray's work on Bella Coola.  5 Q   Now, you also rely in support of this thesis on the  6 evidence that you have determined about the  7 matrilineal kinship and inheritance system among the  8 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en; is that right?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And that's referred to at page 450.  11 You also rely on the oral histories, that is,  12 the -- the oral histories of the Gitksan and of the  13 Wet'suwet'en as reflected in the adaawk and the  14 Kungax?  15 A   That's right.  16 Q   And finally, you rely on the role of women which you  17 have determined from your research, and you refer to  18 that at page 449, "Position of women in the society";  19 is that right?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And you state at page 449 that:  22  23 "The position of women in the society is  24 an important indicator of the degree to  25 which economic accumulation and political  26 centralization have changed the reciprocal  27 relations of a kinship society."  28  29 And this is a proposition that is cross-cultural?  30 A   Yes.  And it's being explored by a number of  31 particularly women anthropologists today, assessing  32 the position of women in different types of societies  33 and the effect of colonization and first contact with  34 Europeans, the position that -- the actions of the  35 women in relation to these changes.  And people like  36 Christine Gayly, working on the development of the  37 Tongan state, in --  38 Q   Tonga?  39 A   Tonga.  40 Q   Yes.  41 A   Tongan state in Polynesia.  And I can't remember the  42 author now, but there's another interesting one about  43 the women who resisted the Spanish conquistadors  44 incursions into the Inca empire by taking to the  45 altiplano and fighting to try to maintain the old  46 kinship system of the Inca state, even though the men  47 had found their -- many of the men had found their 12303  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 place within the new situation.  The women had this  2 sort of Amazonian guerrilla warfare movement for about  3 a 200-year period.  They took to animal husbandry with  4 Alpacas and so on, and raided the valleys against the  5 Spanish.  6 Q   And is that in a book called "Women of the Puna"?  7 A   That's "Women of the Puna".  Yes.  8 Q   Okay.  And there's a —  9 A   There's another anthropologist who has worked a lot  10 along this line, Eleanor Leacock.  11 Q   Yes.  12 A  Among the Montagnais-Naskapi in Labrador, and with  13 some of her students in relation to Iroquois women and  14 the central nature of the -- or the central -- the  15 standing and position of the women at the time of  16 contact and then what happened to this and whether or  17 not it is still a feature today.  And they treat it as  18 a sort of diagnostic feature of the degree to which  19 the kinship system is still intact. If the women have  20 lost their equality, the finding -- the hypothesis is,  21 this is an anthropological hypothesis, is that they  22 don't retain their standing if the society is  23 significantly shifted into a patriarchal hierarchical  24 social system.  Montagnais, M-o-n-t-a-g-n-a-i-s,  25 Naskapi, N-a-s-k-a-p-i.  26 Q   You go on to say on page 449, after setting out this  27 thesis, that:  28  29 "At the time of contact, Gitksan and  30 Wet'suwet'en women maintained control over  31 their household labour, their reproductive  32 rights, their annual produce, and their  33 specific rights and responsibilities in the  34 production process through the seasons.  No  35 matter where they lived after marrying,  36 women retained their status and authority in  37 their own matrilineal house group.  They  38 were able to ensure their children's access  39 to names, history, and territory, as  40 inheritance is reckoned through the mother."  41  42 Now, in respect of that opinion, do you -- do you  43 rely on -- what do you rely on?  What have you relied  44 on to form that opinion?  45 A   I've relied on my observations in the community in the  46 present day.  47 Q   Yes. 12304  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  38  39  40  MR. GRANT  41  42  THE COURT  43  MR. GRANT  44  Q  45  46  47  And my comparative knowledge of the Iroquois where the  standing of the women is based -- is very closely tied  to their control of their own productive labour within  the system.  Okay.  Just what I guess I should focus on because the  next paragraph you talk about the contemporary  situation, you refer to what I've just referred to as  at the time of contact.  Are you relying here on the  oral histories?  I'm sorry, I don't --  Well, you say you relied -- you've observed this  today, and you go on to deal with that on the bottom  of 449, but at the top, this description you give  right after setting out the hypothesis is that at the  time of contact Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en women  maintained control, and you go on to what I've quoted.  In support of that opinion, do you rely upon the  ethnohistorical, ethnographical, and oral histories?  It's the overall -- the overall documentation that I  have read backs up my understanding of the situation  today, particularly in relation to the role of the  women in the fishing sites and so on.  Okay.  And I think that's what you have -- you state  at the bottom.  "Chiefs still today consult their  descent group, their mothers, aunts and  wives, before making decisions.";  And this is where you're referring to -- you made  observations of this yourself?  Yes.  And observed what's happened in terms of the  management of the fishing site as an example?  Oh, yes.  Well, usually the authority of running the  fishing site is delegated, sometimes publicly, in the  feast hall to one of the women and she's responsible  for all the fishing.  That's the case with Art  Matthew's mother for example.  :   I'd just like to quote page 452 and 453, Doctor.  You state in that middle paragraph --  :  452?  452.  That's where I'll start, my lord.  "It is interesting to note that many  economies which combine hunting with some 12305  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 other quite different economic pursuit, such  2 as already noted with the Iroquois, follow a  3 system of matrilineal kinship and descent."  4  5 You then go on to describe the situation with the  6 Iroquois and make a cross-cultural comparison, and  7 then you also refer to the Ashanti.  8 Now, going over to -- I'm sorry, the bottom of  9 that page, you say:  10  11 "In all of the North American examples of  12 these hunting combination economies,  13 matrilineal peoples devised a local  14 organization of summer economic activity  15 which was largely under the direction of  16 women, and that of the winter season  17 (hunting, trapping, ice-fishing, and trade  18 pursuits) which was under the direction of  19 men.  This division of labour necessitated  20 reciprocity between men and women, between  21 siblings and their in-laws.  These societies  22 accumulated large amounts of foodstuffs for  23 winter use, and used a portion of this  24 accumulation for trade and diplomatic needs.  25 In both instances, matrilineal inheritance  26 gave great emphasis to local reciprocity, to  27 the 'sensitivity to issues of personal  28 dominance ', described by Wallace and  29 militated against enduring power blocks."  30  31 And that analysis that you've made of where you  32 refer to a number of societies, does that last  33 statement apply to the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en in  34 your opinion?  35 A   Yes, it does.  It's consistent with the experience of  36 the anthropologists right across what's called the  37 matrilineal belt of central Africa as well.  38 Q   Thank you.  I'd like to now move on to the next  39 chapter, my lord.  That is the chapter on trade.  I'm  40 sorry, my lord, if you could just bear with me.  In  41 reference to this chapter, I'd like to -- ultimately  42 it will be a shortcut -- refer to page 96 of Volume 1,  43 which is a section that I left out.  Yes, if the  44 witness could have it.  45 Do you have it, Doctor?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Okay.  On page 96 you state: 12306  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2 "The peoples' oral histories indicate  3 that there have been definite periods of  4 intense barter, raiding and diplomacy across  5 the region.  Probably the seventeenth and  6 nineteenth centuries constituted one such  7 era when trade goods, always important to  8 the subsistence economy, now began to take  9 on an existence of their own, as  10 increasingly exchangeable commodities, the  11 control of which led to wars and intense  12 competition through the North Pacific area."  13  14 And that is your opinion?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Okay.  And then you --  17 A   I would qualify that a bit because I --  18 Q   Go ahead.  19 A   I believe that the facts are such that we can conclude  20 that there was a degree of trade along the --  21 commodity trade along the coast at the time of  22 contact, especially in the area of the Columbia River.  23 And from my feelings in the -- from having read the  24 migrations described in the adaawk and the wars, and  25 so on, there was a -- anthropologists normally see  26 raiding and trading very closely interlinked.  And the  27 whole period of raiding and trading along the coast,  28 it's very hard to know whether this -- to what degree  29 it was the result of early contact, and to what degree  30 the existing trade was already intensifying.  It's  31 been a question under investigation in other areas.  32 The Christine Gayly work I mentioned tried to assess  33 this and most of the data she found was that the  34 system was already in place, it just intensified with  35 the coming of the British.  36 Q   Okay.  Maybe this is -- I just want to refer you to  37 page 97 at this point, and 98.  You state there that:  38  39 "Competition and conflict with  40 neighbouring peoples in periods of intense  41 trade no doubt strengthened and reinforced  42 the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en system of  43 clearly defined, House-owned hunting  44 territories and fishing sites, a system  45 which articulated with ownership and  4 6 management of territory among the  47 neighbouring peoples.  The ranking and 12307  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 stratification, and the clearly defined  2 system of property rights which have been  3 associated with trade activities existed in  4 proto-contact times and, as discussed in  5 Chapter 1, both the oral culture and  6 archaeological records affirm that such  7 stratification is of considerable antiquity.  8 Having said this I would argue that property  9 ownership evolved not simply from trade  10 between different ecological zones, but also  11 from the need to regulate resource use,  12 given the population and technology of the  13 times."  14  15 You go on then to refer to Ball, who is at Exhibit  16 899, and she says that:  17  18 "Ball outlines the debate which has occurred  19 in Canadian anthropology over the past four  20 decades concerning the nature of land tenure  21 in pre-contact Canada, and adds her voice to  22 those who see the Pacific Northwest being an  23 area marked by well-defined ownership due to  24 population density, regular salmon runs and  25 indigenous trade."  26  27 And I'd just like you to go half-way down that  28 quote where it's stated:  29  30 "'...1 contend that there is convincing  31 evidence that the Indians of British  32 Columbia developed land tenure systems  33 within recognized territories during  34 aboriginal times...I can offer three  35 possible reasons why:  the first reason is  36 that the comparatively dense Indian  37 population on the Pacific watershed put  38 pressure on the resources; the second is  39 that the Pacific watershed Indians relied  40 heavily on anadromous fish for sustenance  41 and trade items - consequently they lived  42 rather sedentary lives compared to many  43 eastern tribes; and the third is that the  44 Indians did not exploit the resources solely  45 for local and tribal use but also for  46 intertribal trade.  For archaeological  47 evidence that this trade went back as far as 1230?  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 ten thousand years ago, see Roy L. Carlson's  2 paper on "Prehistoric Trade in British  3 Columbia: Obsidian" that he presented to the  4 B.C. Studies Conference in Vancouver in  5 February, 1984. '"  6  7 You then go on to state -- and that is of course  8 referred to in exhibit -- that's the first footnote in  9 Exhibit 899, isn't it?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Or part of it?  12 A   Carlson was the name that I forgot in relation to the  13 site at Namu.  14 Q   Thank you.  15 Then you say that:  16  17 "There is no evidence to suggest that  18 ownership evolved from endemic conflict  19 which arose from any scarcity of resources  20 in pre-contact times.  There is no doubt  21 that periods of conflict occurred during the  22 long, pre-European history of the continent;  23 however, it is more likely that the system  24 of land tenure developed at the time of  25 original settlement in the area."  26  27 Now, firstly, you adopt that -- the conclusions or  28 the opinions of Georgina Ball as your own with respect  29 to that statement that I have read to you?  30 A   Yes, I do.  31 MR. GRANT:   And I'd like you to go — my lord, that's the — I  32 won't be dealing with that sector or volume again.  33 I'll go back to Volume 2, Chapter 7.  34 Now, just to put your opinion on trade in context,  35 you state at page 455 that:  36  37 "The approach adopted here, is to view  38 exchange and distribution as governed by the  39 way people own and control their economic  40 potential (resources, skills and labour); by  41 the way they organize their production  42 activities and satisfy their material needs;  43 and by the way they expend their labour and  44 wealth to maintain other social institutions  45 (such features as family, political  46 activity, religious and social welfare)  47 which are involved in the functioning of the 12309  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  community and its afairs.  At the broadest  level, the form of distribution of valued  goods and services is integral to the way  the community maintains itself through  time."  That's the middle paragraph there, my lord.  Thank you.  That is a synopsis of the approach and why you're  dealing with trade here and how you relate trade to  your own raw analysis of the economy?  Of the economy.  Now, on page 456, Doctor, you refer to economizing,  and maybe you can just, in your own words, tell his  lordship what -- at the bottom of page 456 what you  mean when you talk about economizing?  Basically what I mean is the accumulation of goods and  services which can subsequently be used deployed in  various ways as investments in further economic,  political, and other ventures.  It's an essential  feature of the standard economics textbooks on the  nature of economy in our society, the allocation of  scarce resources to alternative ends.  Well, within the Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en systems,  at what level does the economizing occur within the  social structures?  It occurs within the -- at the level of the house  group.  Okay.  I mean, in the hierarchical societies this is the --  this is governed by the market.  Here in -- it's  highly constrained in kinship systems so that the  accumulation is limited to the kinship groupings and  their boundaries, so people within the -- to whom  you're related by blood, the blood line which is  socially recognized which is matrilineal in these  situations with the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en.  Is this how your -- what you reflect on page 457, the  middle of the first paragraph:  "The decentralized Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  do not have a tradition of central  administration, but their House chiefs,  nonetheless engage in the allocation of  values to alternate ends within the context  of the House system of ownership and 12310  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 control, especially regarding the deployment  2 of land and labour."  3  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Okay.  6 A   Or the deployment of labour on the land that they  7 control.  8 MR. GRANT:   My lord, I just refer you to the next paragraph on  9 457, and the other paragraph on 458 starting "The  10 society..."  I don't see the need to amplify on that  11 with the witness, but for your reference.  12 THE COURT:  Thank you.  13 MR. GRANT:  14 Q   Can you go to 459, Doctor?  You state there, and again  15 after referring to Sheila Robinson, you state that  16 your opinion is different where you say:  17  18 "It is my opinion, however, that trade,  19 competition and conflict, pre-dated the  20 modern era of European market relations, as  21 did the social factors which militated  22 against competitive hierarchy within the  23 society:  The institutions of matrilineal  24 kinship groups, collective property-holding,  25 feast-giving and the laws of sharing and  26 reciprocity.  Both competition and its  27 regulation are and were implicit in the  28 economy, society and culture of the Gitksan  2 9 and Wet'suwet'en."  30  31 And that is your opinion?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And in support of that opinion you rely and assume the  34 accuracy of archaeological finds of obsidian?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   You rely on the -- your own findings of the -- in the  37 ethnohistorical record of the existence of trails and  38 bridges which you refer to later in this chapter?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   You rely on the regional specialties which you have  41 analysed from the ethnographic and ethnohistorical  42 records, as well as the oral histories, and you  43 actually chart later in this chapter?  44 A   Yes.  And in the peoples' assertions and the logic of  45 what they say in an overall sense from the course of  46 my actual work in the field.  47 Q   Okay.  Which -- to use your own phrase, do those 12311  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 assertions ring true with respect to your other  2 aspects of your research?  They are consistent with --  3 A   They're consistent.  Yes.  4 Q   Also you rely on the ecological location of the  5 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en --  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   -- that you've already described?  You rely on the  8 ethnohistorical -- I'm sorry, I referred to that.  You  9 rely on the structural system, that is, the social  10 structure which you have analysed of the Gitksan and  11 Wet'suwet'en?  12 A   Yes.  Yes.  13 Q   At the bottom of that page you state:  14  15 "The decisions about the allocation of  16 resources to alternate ends is almost  17 eclipsed in a non-state, kinship economy by  18 the principle of reciprocity and the  19 obligation to maintain the subsistence  20 safety net of all members of the community."  21  22 And that's your opinion?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And this Dr. Lee has done similar work, and your --  25 what you --  26 A   He's coined that phrase, "the subsistence safety net",  27 which is used quite widely among anthropologists  28 today.  Nobody's allowed to fall through the cracks.  29 There's a kinship basis for social welfare, and it's  30 also an indicator for the degree of hierarchy in the  31 society too.  32 Q   Okay.  A few days ago his lordship raised the issue  33 with respect to section 48, the protection of the  34 widow provisions.  Does this analysis of the  35 subsistence safety net, does it reflect anything on --  36 with respect to your conclusions that that has an  37 impact?  38 A  Well, in the matrilineal society, like the Gitksan and  39 Wet'suwet'en, a widow has to be looked after by her  40 own house group with the assistance of her father's  41 house group or they lose face and the standing of  42 their house is tarnished in the community.  And this  43 is all worked out in the course of the transactions in  44 the feast that follow the death of the spouse.  45 Q   Okay.  I'd like to take you to page 461, Doctor, and  46 quote you there.  You stated that:  47 12312  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 "While the rules of reciprocity governed  2 exchanges between groups in the region this  3 is not to say that there has been no seeking  4 of maximum benefit between peoples, and  5 their respective chiefs.  The seeking of  6 economic advantage was limited by  7 considerations of kinship obligation and the  8 ritualized rules of chiefly interaction in  9 the feast hall.  In other words, sectional  10 interests had to be weighed against the  11 costs of jeopardizing ongoing relations  12 between Houses, villages or distant trade  13 partners with whom one interacted through a  14 common, shared cultural medium of kinship  15 reciprocity."  16  17 Doctor, in light of what you -- that is a  18 conclusion that you arrived at, or an opinion with  19 respect to the Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Now, you go on to explain the types of reciprocity at  22 pages 462, 463, and maybe rather than reading that,  23 you can just summarize what you mean by reciprocity in  24 anthropological terms, and the types of reciprocity  25 that you deal with?  26 A   The whole discussion was -- came to the floor in  27 the -- in the late 1920's with the work of Marcel  28 Mauss, M-a-u-s-s.  29 Q   Yes.  30 A  A French anthropologist, who analysed the potlatch  31 material of Franz Boas, and it was in effect a  32 detailed analysis of what happens when someone gives  33 someone else a gift, the whole thing about gift giving  34 and repayment of gifts, which is in many ways a  35 prototype for the nature of social relations in band  36 and tribal societies.  Since then --  37 THE COURT:  Prototype of what?  38 THE WITNESS:  Of the way social relations are conducted in band  39 and tribal societies; a give and take.  You do it to  40 me and I'll do it to you, or we'll behave well to you  41 if you'll behave well to us, or the eye for an eye and  42 a tooth for a tooth is the same concept.  So since  43 then the anthropologists have tried to refine this  44 concept, and they generally use these today in terms  45 of a balanced reciprocity or generalized reciprocity,  46 or negative reciprocity.  And it entails different  47 types of social relations which are seen to be 12313  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR. GRANT  dominant in any one society being studied.  Generalized reciprocity is everyone in the group  involved gives from time to time and it all balances  out in the end, or that's the common assumption.  Balanced reciprocity is an expectation of return  roughly equal to what you have given.  And a negative  reciprocity is seeking a gain without -- seeking to  gain something which will -- you hope you will not  have to repay, or where you can maximize your values  at the expense of someone else, so that the give and  take of the gift metaphor is negated.  Now, you refer, for example, on page 462 that a  generalized reciprocity would be, for example, a --  services of parents to offspring, giving of goods and  services in the course of the older generation  nurturing the younger one.  That's an example of  generalized reciprocity?  Yes.  And balanced reciprocity, what would be an example of  that?  Well, if you invite me for dinner and I arrive with a  bouquet of flowers, when I invite you for dinner you  would arrive with a bottle of wine.  That's a balanced  reciprocity.  It's according to the common etiquette  of our society.  And negative reciprocity, what would that be?  Negative reciprocity would be taking a certain amount  of goods and -- or buying a certain amount of goods  cheap and selling them at a high rate somewhere else  and achieving a modicum of value which is not going to  be repaid.  It's an imbalanced situation, and that  entails a whole different type of accumulation of  wealth and so forth.  :   Now, I'd like to give you an example from the  ethnohistorical material you've referred to, and I'd  like to refer you to the green book, tab -- Exhibit  895, the John Brown report, at tab 87.  You recall  this is the 1826 report in which he discusses, amongst  other things, dealings with the Wet'suwet'en.  Now, on page -- my lord, there's a page that's on  the right -- every second page I think is stamped on  the right-hand side with the page number, and right  after the page that's stamped 17 -- I apologize that I  didn't get an opportunity to -- I didn't have this  numbered at the top.  The page immediately following  that. 12314  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  THE COURT  2  MR. GRANT  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  Yes.  Now, in this area of the description, I believe that  Mr. Brown was referring to meetings with the Indians  at the Forks?  Yes.  And just about two, four, the sixth line up from the  bottom -- the Forks being the -- around the area of  the Bulkley and Skeena junction?  Yes.  "When I went there the first time in 1823  several of the chiefs made me presents of  furs, in return for which I made them what I  considered very handsome presents consisting  of cloth blankets, shirts, et cetera.  But  the following day they brought back the  whole and informed me that it was not to  receive such articles as these that they had  given me their furs.  One of them,  Smuggletrum..."  S-m-u-g-g-1-e-t-r-u-m, or it may be t-s-u-m.  "... from whom I had received about twenty  skins, I had given two yards of red..."  "Stroud".  "...stroud, one anah shirt..."  A-n-a-h.  "...one awl, one fire still, one gun flint."  "One fire steel".  I'm sorry.  Thank you.  "...two..."  "Two needles".  "...two needles, two hanks thread, two yards  gartering..."  "Gartering" it looks like.  "...ten bales, one half pound powder, one  pound shot, and one six pound tobacco.  Acquitted me to take..." 12315  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   No, "requested me".  2 Q   Oh, "...requested me...", thank you, "...to take back  3 the whole again and give him a..."  4 A   "Dressed skin".  5 Q  6  7 "...dressed skin in the place.  On which I  8 took the articles and in their stead gave  9 him two middling moose skins as an  10 equivalent for his furs.  And the same  11 arrangement I was obliged to make with the  12 others, after which they were all well  13 pleased."  14  15 Now, it may be out of place, Doctor. I just  16 wondered if with respect to that description Mr.  17 Brown, with the Wet'suwet'en chief, how that fits into  18 what you've described with respect to reciprocity; if  19 that's an example of the reciprocity relationship?  20 A   It's a reciprocity, of course, from the Hudson Bay  21 perspective.  The trader is seeking goods at as cheap  22 a rate as possible which will be sold on an  23 international market, and the native people involved  24 are seeking what they consider to be a value  25 equivalent to what they have given, more or less a  26 balanced reciprocity.  But I think that this is  27 significant for other reasons as well.  28 Q   Okay.  And I'll come back to it.  Can you go back to  29 your report then?  I'll return to that.  30 At page 462 at the bottom you say:  31  32 "In terms of local community affairs,  33 the chiefs claim that what is expended by  34 one house is ultimately repaid by others,  35 and in this way a roughly balanced  36 reciprocity is achieved."  37  38 Now, when you talk about -- you're talking here  39 about the Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And when you talk about local community affairs, what  42 are you talking about?  What is the community you're  43 referring to?  44 A  Within the -- within the village or groupings of  45 nearby villages, such as the ties between Gitseguekla,  46 Kitwanga, Kitwancool, or between Hagwilget and  47 Moricetown, or between Hagwilget and Gitanmaax or 12316  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Gitanmaax, Kispiox, and the people from the northern  2 two villages who now live in those villages.  It's the  3 local groupings of day-to-day interactions.  4 Q   Can you refer to the bottom of page 463?  5  6 "The feast or potlatch has long been the  7 ceremonial, legal and political focus in the  8 general culture of the north coast.  As  9 well, the feast has economic features,  10 especially pertaining to the mobilization of  11 values which will be presented to the  12 guests:  proper hosting services (the  13 mobilization of the kinship labour force),  14 as well as the food, gifts and payments to  15 be made to the chiefs and other guests.  16 Adams describes the Gitksan feast as quite  17 competitive, while I have found that the  18 participants stress that the allocation of  19 resources which occurs publicly in the feast  20 is in general carried out according to the  21 principles of balanced reciprocity (the  22 paying off of debts and the fulfilment of  23 obligations by the hosts to the guests -  24 clearing the name of the House and settling  25 business such that the House, at the end of  26 the feast, is not under obligation to  27 others)."  28  29 And that's your opinion?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Okay.  Now, you deal in the section on feasts with  32 Adams in more detail, and you actually do a -- you do  33 a detailed description of a generic pole-raising feast  34 in that chapter?  35 A   Yes.  36 MR. GRANT:   And you compare the differences with yourself and  37 Adams --  38 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, what's a generic pole-raising feast?  39 Perhaps Mr. Grant could define that?  40 MR. GRANT:  It's not one specific feast, my lord.  It's a  41 feast -- it's not the feast of a specific person, but  42 going through the whole structure of what happens at a  43 typical pole-raising feast.  44 THE COURT:  Your friend says you're mixing your modifiers.  4 5    MR. GRANT:  4 6 Q   We'll get a chance to come to that.  47 On page 465, Doctor, you conclude: 12317  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  "From my experience of present-day  Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en feasts, and from  information elicited from members of these  societies, I do not believe that the  accumulation of prestige through lavish and  competitive giving is an important feature  of the transactions that occur."  And you say at the beginning of the previous  paragraph:  "This process, as I've experienced it,  appears to be motivated throughout by the  need to repay and clear the name of the  chief and House from all indebtedness."  And that is your conclusion based on your  observations and your research?  A   Yes.  MR. GRANT:   And can you explain why you've come to that  conclusion in that second -- the lower of the two  references on page 465?  THE COURT:  Isn't that explained by what he just said, that the  purpose is to repay and clear the name of obligation  of indebtedness?  Surely that's already been  explained, hasn't it?  Hasn't it, Doctor?  THE WITNESS:   I think so, and —  MR. GRANT:  Q   Okay.  A   -- the force and adamancy with which the participants  explain it makes it very vivid in my mind.  Q   Now, on the contrary, just on the bottom -- or on page  466, you refer to the middle paragraph there.  You  state that chiefs:  "...can, however, remove blots and stains  that previous holders may have allowed to  form on the lustrous image of the name.  This is achieved by demonstrating their  commitment and sense of responsibility to  the feast system.  It is not achieved by  striving to maximize economic returns so as  to be able to organize unusually lavish  feasts."  Now, can you  what do you mean by "unusually 1231?  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 lavish feasts", and why do you include that?  2 A  Well, the basis for using the word "unusually" is that  3 there's a standard on what is appropriate for a  4 different type of feast and for the standing of the  5 participants.  For example, every high chief is  6 accorded the same status.  On the books every chief  7 has the same status.  Every high chief has the same  8 status.  Every deniize' and every simoogit in the two  9 languages.  And they're seated with deference in the  10 feast hall and people listen to them and don't  11 interrupt when they speak, and so on.  But the thing  12 is, each house has different fortunes at any one time,  13 and they may not live up to the status of their  14 chief's name.  So in a de facto sense they're not very  15 high at one time because they're not -- they don't  16 have their act together economically or in terms of  17 the feasting exchanges, but they're still treated  18 with -- with the respect -- with the ceremonial  19 respect.  If they're going to turn that ceremonial  20 respect into living political force, they have to be  21 very good at the feast-giving and mobilize all their  22 forces, but they can only go to a certain height.  23 They can't go above any other -- potential of any  24 other chief.  If they do, this is considered to be not  25 just bad form but a sign of aggression that someone  26 wants a big competitive fight, and that's not --  27 that's not accepted.  28 Q   And you're talking here about the Gitksan and  29 Wet'suwet'en feasts?  30 A   The Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en feasts that I've seen and  31 that people have talked about in the present  32 generation.  33 Q   And those described in the evidence of witnesses such  34 as Mary McKenzie and --  35 A   Yes, that's right.  36 Q   And you also rely on the Beynon account of the 1945 --  37 A   Certainly do.  It's very rich material.  38 Q   Then you talk about, just at the bottom of that:  39  40 "In the history of the  41 Tsimshian-speaking area there have been  42 aberrations to this procedure where balanced  43 reciprocity (paying back) is converted into  44 competitive accumulation of values.  These  45 values are realized by attempts to out-give  46 other chiefs.  Such activities are  47 remembered in the ada'ox histories because 12319  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 they are such blatant violations of feasting  2 principles."  3  4 And then you state:  5  6 "The majority of examples of 'negative  7 reciprocity feasting' derive from the  8 market-distorted period of nineteenth  9 century potlatching."  10  11 And you then -- you use both terms, feasting and  12 potlatching, and if you can explain if there's a  13 difference between the two in anthropological terms?  14 A  Well, the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en people are  15 adamantly opposed to the word potlatch.  They don't  16 like it at all.  They say it's -- first of all, it's a  17 foreign word.  And I understand it's -- it comes from  18 a Chinook word.  And they refer to -- when they do  19 refer to the word, it's referred to a competitive  20 giving of massive amounts of goods or sometimes it's  21 referred to as power potlatching.  But it's referred  22 to in relation to the coastal people not among their  23 own ranks.  24 Q   And in the coastal ethnographies -- I'm sorry, in the  25 ethnographies of the Tsimshian-speaking area, and here  26 when you say that, are you referring to the area  27 encompassing the Gitksan, or a more limited area, at  28 the top of that paragraph?  29 A   I'm sorry, where?  30 Q   You say "In the history of the Tsimshian-speaking  31 area"?  32 A   This is -- this is the area rough -- as I said before,  33 roughly the -- the Nass and Skeena drainage system.  34 Q   Okay.  35 A   Of course the Bulkley portion of the Skeena drainage  36 system is the Wet'suwet'en people, but --  37 Q   Okay.  38 A  And the Upper Babine is the Babine-Carrier people.  39 Q   Why do you conclude that these power potlatches  40 referred to in the oral histories are "blatant  41 violations of feasting principles"?  42 A   Because the morality of feasting and of day-to-day  43 relations between house groups is a give and take of a  44 balanced reciprocity.  That's the morality and the  45 ideology.  So when this -- when this is violated in an  46 amazingly large scale, it is cause to be remembered.  47 It's something that gets passed on. 12320  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   Can you turn to the next page?  2 A   Just as historians seldom write very much about  3 peaceful times, but you get a lot of accounts about  4 war.  5 Q   Okay.  Can you turn to page 467?  And you -- I'm  6 sorry, I'll just -- I'll go from the bottom of 466, my  7 lord.  You say:  8  9 "The Eagle Clan ada'oxs of the trading chief,  10 Legyeex provide examples of competitive  11 feasting which present-day Gitksan consider  12 to be in violation to the Native law."  13  14 Legyeex was the Tsimshian -- coastal Tsimshian  15 chief; is that right?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Okay.  Now, then you go on to say -- and you make a  18 contrast from the ethnography that:  19  20 "In the anthropological literature,  21 these very anomalies are frequently treated  22 as the standard form of feasting or  23 potlatching all over the culture area.  24 Franz Boas, for instance, argued that the  25 underlying principle of potlatching is a  26 market relationship: '...the interest  27 bearing investment on property', and Codere  28 has stated that 'Potlatches were planned  29 like campaigns against an enemy.'"  30  31 Now, what was the basis -- from your reading of  32 these authors and the ethnographies of the area, what  33 was the basis for their conclusions about this  34 feasting?  35 A   The basis for their conclusions, it was an analysis of  36 potlatches which have been seen and recorded at the  37 end of the nineteenth century and the early years of  38 the twentieth century.  39 Q   Where?  40 A  A lot of it was based on Boas' own work in the  41 Kwagulth or Kwakiutl area on the north end of  42 Vancouver Island and the adjacent mainland and island  43 around what is today Alert Bay.  44 Q   Was this -- were these in any proximity to trading  45 centres?  46 A   Yes, they were.  47 Q   And did that affect the situation? 12321  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   The similar -- well, another source are the huge  2 potlatches that were held in Alaska in around the  3 mouth of the Stikine and the Taku and other rivers,  4 and Chilkat River and around Port Simpson near Prince  5 Rupert at the mouth of the Nass around the corner from  6 Prince Rupert --  7 Q   Well —  8 A   -- and down on the lower -- the lower Columbia River,  9 the same.  10 Q   Okay.  11 A   The ethnohistorical reports show all of the very  12 lavish excessive giving of gifts.  13 Q   Okay.  Now, is there any -- from an anthropological  14 perspective, is there any conclusion you can arrive at  15 that there's a relationship between the timing and the  16 location of these power potlatches, and the fact that  17 they were competitive potlatches?  18 A   Yes, I -- they were all -- all recorded at locations  19 where there was -- there were trading posts.  There  20 was access to a huge influx of commodity goods.  21 Q   Yes.  22 A  And the people took this flood of commodity goods and  23 fed it back into the existing system, and they -- it  24 brought a lot of people together in areas that had --  25 normally didn't associate with one another, and they  26 had to work out their standing, their competitive  27 standing, vis-a-vis one another, and they did it  28 through the -- through the form of the feasting,  29 giving and receiving, but in a very competitive  30 fashion.  31 And this is -- Helen Codere is very clear on that,  32 and she fits -- she locates her work in a historical  33 context.  But Boas was speaking in the ethnographic  34 present, in the sense that I spoke of, without any  35 reference to historical context.  36 Q   Okay.  37 A   Just comparatively.  38 THE COURT:  Are you saying that that was not representative of  39 traditional feasting and gifting?  40 THE WITNESS:   I'm saying it's not representative of the  41 feasting in the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en areas probably at  42 that time, and in many areas in more isolated areas  43 along the coast which were some distance from the  44 centres of trade.  However, at that period of the sea  45 otter trade between the late 17 -- well, about 1780  46 and 1820, it was a very marked -- there was a very  47 marked upsurge in this sort of activity. 12322  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 MR. GRANT:  2 Q   Okay.  And you then contrast Codere and Boas'  3 descriptions with Drucker, and Drucker, you state:  4  5 "...quite rightly characterizes feast-giving  6 among the north coast peoples as essentially  7 concerned with the veneration of the  8 deceased chief, and the long process of  9 properly installing a new one.  He argues  10 that the competitive potlatch recorded in  11 the nineteenth century was most pronounced  12 at the fur trade centres of Fort Rupert and  13 Port Simpson where a number of chiefs from a  14 wide area gathered in unusual circumstances  15 engendered by the trading posts, and feasted  16 competitively in an effort to establish an  17 order and structure of precedence in these  18 new social conditions.  Yet even under these  19 conditions of rivalrous feasting in the  20 nineteenth century, the fruits of trade and  21 profit-seeking could only be socially and  22 morally validated in the framework of  23 reciprocal gift-giving."  24  2 5 And do you --  26 A   There's another anthropologist who is of the same  27 position.  28 Q   Who's that?  29 A  Who was working back in the 1920's and 30's -- Homer  30 Barnett -- among the Coast Salish.  31 Q   Okay.  32 A  And he is -- his general assessment of the feasting is  33 in accord with Drucker and it rings true to what I  34 have learned from -- directly from the people and from  35 the reading of their oral traditions --  3 6 Q   And —  37 A   -- in the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en area.  38 Q   And is Marcel Mauss, who you've already referred to,  39 does he take a similar position?  40 A   Yes.  He's consistent. Yes.  41 Q   And that —  42 A   He adds another dimension as well, which is the  43 psychic and spiritual power which is being  44 reciprocated between the chiefs in the course of the  45 events.  46 Q   And you adopt this opinion on 467?  You agree with  47 that opinion, at the bottom? 12323  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yes, I do.  2 Q   Which is set out as a summation of the Drucker  3 opinion.  4 Now, at page 469, you make reference to the Winter  5 Ceremonies, and I'd just like to refer you to it.  You  6 just say half-way through that first paragraph:  7  8 "That is to say, even in periods of greatest  9 competition and aggression - for instance,  10 during the period when the Winter  11 Ceremonies, with their expression of  12 ritualized property relations, diffused  13 northward from the central British Columbia  14 coast and reached the periphery of Gitksan  15 and Wet'suwet'en society, there were actual  16 limits to competition imposed by the  17 structure of the kinship order itself.  18 These limits were defined by the  19 principle of reciprocity.  Reciprocal  20 gift-giving and debt-paying is an indigenous  21 feature of the social relations of the  22 culture area."  23  24 And you rely here on -- or, I'm sorry, I just  25 wanted to ask you, with respect to that, that's your  26 opinion and a further elaboration of what you've  27 earlier described?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Now, can you just explain, because here you refer to  30 the Winter Ceremonies, what you're referring to there  31 and what influence that has on this dynamic you're  32 describing?  33 A   The Winter Ceremonies were a set of events very -- I  34 shouldn't say "were" because they're still -- they're  35 still in existence in the middle of the coast and in  36 the southern area, the Coast Salish area.  It's a  37 spiritual and religious as well as hospitality event  38 that occurs after the end of the growing season when  39 the people say the spirits come out of the land.  And  40 there's a whole system of dance societies that have  41 grown up around this concept that has involved the  42 hosting and guesting of members of different  43 societies, where the guests who would come to a dance  44 would bring a lot of goods to present to the host in a  45 very competitive fashion.  I'm not familiar with the  46 history of this whole movement or set of social  47 events, but it seemed to have been spreading all over 12324  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 the coast because at the time of contact there are  2 mentions of it, and some of the people I've talked to  3 have memories of certain aspects of this having been  4 practised in the Wet'suwet'en area and in some of the  5 Gitksan villages.  So some of the same features, some  6 of the same types of reciprocity, existed in those  7 Winter Ceremonies as in the feasting.  8 Q   Okay.  I'd like to refer you to page 470 where you  9 state:  10  11 "The mobilization of goods through trade  12 in the nineteenth century was targeted upon  13 the legitimization of this activity in the  14 feast hall.  The reverse never occurred:  15 the feast did not become the avenue to  16 straightforward market relations.  Leading  17 trader chiefs were indeed able to mobilize a  18 retinue of support by means of feasting, but  19 feasting has never been a vehicle for  20 accumulating goods and services that can be  21 expended in trade - beyond the sphere of  22 feast-giving."  23  24 Do you wish to comment on that opinion or -- first  25 of all, I just wasn't sure if you had any modification  26 to it?  That's what I'm referring to.  27 A   I'm afraid my mind was wandering a bit.  Sorry.  28 Q   You say at the end:  29  30 "...feasting has never been a vehicle for  31 accumulating goods and services that can be  32 expended in trade - beyond the sphere of  33 feast-giving."  34  35 A   Feasting -- no, I think I would stand by that.  In the  36 high -- in the high period of power potlatching, goods  37 were accumulated for the feasting and for the  38 establishing of status between high chiefs, but it --  39 Q   Okay.  Now, you refer to leading trader chiefs.  Are  40 you referring here to persons such as Legeeyx?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And Shakes?  43 A   Chief Shakes on the mouth of the Stikine River was a  44 very big --  45 THE COURT:  How do you spell that?  46 THE WITNESS:   — Tlingit chief. S-h-a-k-e-s.  4 7    MR. GRANT: 12325  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   And are you referring also to Nekt?  2 A   To some extent Nekt as well.  Yes, he was --  3 Q   Okay.  Was Nekt a Gitksan?  4 A   He was a Gitksan through his mother.  5 THE COURT:  Nekt is N-e —  6 THE WITNESS: N-e-k-, underlined, t.  7 MR. GRANT:  8 Q   Uh-huh.  9 A  Who came to prominance -- well, there's a whole series  10 of oral narratives about his origins.  11 Q   Okay.  12 A   But was very prominant in the -- in the defence of the  13 Kitwanga area against incursions by coastal peoples up  14 through the Gardiner Canal and through Kitimat into  15 the Kitwanga area, and the fort that George MacDonald  16 excavated and his artefacts of which are on display in  17 Ottawa.  18 THE COURT:  And when was that?  Is it dated?  19 MR. GRANT:  When was Nekt or the fort?  20 THE COURT:  No, Nekt?  21 THE WITNESS:   It's in the general contact period, just on the  22 fringes.  2 3 MR. GRANT:  24 Q   You earlier said there was more than one Legeeyx.  Was  25 there more than one Nekt?  26 A   There's more than one Nekt too.  Yes.  27 Q   Okay.  Just —  28 A   The personalities are reborn through reincarnation  29 over a long period of time, or the -- that's one way  30 of saying it.  Another is that people are socialized  31 into a personality of a famous name when they're being  32 trained to be a chief.  33 Q   Okay.  Tab 68, 69 and 70, which will be exhibits, and  34 you don't need to refer to them, my lord, except to  35 note them.  It would be Exhibit 896.  68, 69 and 70,  36 refer to adaawks or oral histories of Nekt.  37  38 Q   Now —  39 A   I'm not sure that's the limit of the adaawks on Nekt.  40 Q   No, that was just a sampling of the adaawk that you  41 had.  And MacDonald in his writings on the fortress  42 refers to Nekt; is that right?  43 A   Yes.  Yes.  44 Q   Now, can you explain, if Nekt was a Gitksan through  45 his mother and was a trading chief, how -- and you've  46 explained that the Gitksan were not generally as  47 directly involved with this -- 12326  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   He was a trading and raiding chief very much involved  2 in the economic and political process of that general  3 period, both on the Nass and down into the Kitimat  4 area, as well as out to the Queen Charlottes, which  5 was his origin.  6 Q   Yes.  7 A   So he was very much in that matrix, one of the fingers  8 of that coastal trend, if you like, which was actually  9 in the Gitksan area.  10 Q   Now, you go on to talk about gambling on the bottom of  11 page 470, and you say:  12  13 "A further aspect of the feasting  14 complex also worked against the principle of  15 negative reciprocity; that aspect was the  16 gambling which generally occurred after the  17 conclusion of a major feast."  18  19 Then you say:  20  21 "In many cultures around the world gambling  22 is a highly important institution where  23 social relations between persons and groups,  24 and between persons and nature, are markedly  25 reciprocal.  Gambling is one of the few ways  26 members of such societies can engage  27 actively in negative reciprocity - in  28 seeking to win or obtain values at the  29 expense of others - without provoking  30 immediate social discord, vengeance and  31 feuding."  32  33 Now, that's your opinion with respect to gambling  34 and its interconnection to the Gitksan and  35 Wet'suwet'en society?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And you say that this is -- that gambling is a highly  38 important institution in many cultures around the  39 world.  Is this part of the study of anthropology?  40 Has this been found by anthropologists?  41 A   It's certainly been found by anthropologists.  It  42 strikes anthropologists in many many situations, the  43 adherence to gambling, and it has been analysed as a  44 way of seeking negative reciprocity or seeking gain  45 which is outside the strictures of kinship.  So you  46 can -- you can strike it rich and nobody will be able  47 to retaliate because you end up wearing their shirt. 12327  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 That's the sort of situation that results.  2 Q   Okay.  Now, can you give some examples of --  3 A   Oh, there's gambling in all the cultures of this  4 coast, as far as I know, and we -- when I worked in  5 the museum we had gambling stick games from the Inuit  6 areas in northern Canada, and the forest areas, right  7 across -- and very significant parts of the ceremonial  8 cycle of the Iroquois are dependent on who wins the  9 gambling game in the middle of the ceremonies.  10 Hunting societies engage in a lot of gambling.  11 Q   Okay.  You just cut yourself off.  You said "forest  12 societies across", across Canada are you talking  13 about?  14 A  Across Canada.  15 Q   Has there been a major work done by Woodburn regarding  16 gambling?  17 A   Yes, on the group of hunters in the centre of Africa  18 called the Hadza, H-a-d-z-a, where he analysed in some  19 detail this function of gambling in a decentralized  20 society.  21 Q   What about with respect to European peasant societies  22 that are kinship based?  23 A   Oh, yes.  A colleague of mine by the name of Michael  24 Hurzfeld, H-u-r-z-f-e-1-d, has recently brought out an  25 interesting book on the card-playing gambling among  26 the peasants of Crete as a significant way of  27 unravelling the relation -- the kinship relations of  28 this mountain peasant village.  And I've certainly  29 noticed it personally in my travels in that part of  30 the world as well.  31 MR. GRANT:   Possibly, my lord, we should stop at this moment.  32 I'm going to another phase of this particular part of  33 evidence.  34 THE COURT:  Yes.  How are you getting along?  35 MR. GRANT:  I'm — well, I think I'm doing fairly well, if I  36 could just -- I think we've got through Dr. -- we've  37 covered about almost 60 pages and, my lord, I think  38 that in light of the pace, that I would anticipate  39 completing this whole -- all of this chapter on trade.  40 And if I can, I think what I would like to do is that  41 I would -- if I organize myself and I can severely  42 edit and -- deal with the other matter in less than  43 half an hour when we next sit, that is, that chapter  44 on feasting, and complete.  I'd like to be able to  45 just do it very quickly and not the -- the bulk of the  46 material you will now have, and that's what I would  47 anticipate.  In other words, I think I would 1232?  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 ultimately save time by doing that.  2 THE COURT:  How long do you think you'll take to finish the  3 chapter period, the whole afternoon?  4 MR. GRANT:  Yes, I will finish — that's my objective, and I'm  5 going to now over the noon hour work, reorganize if  6 it's -- if I need to.  I would complete the chapter on  7 trade this afternoon.  8 THE COURT:  Well, I was going to suggest that, if necessary, we  9 come back at 1:00 -- I'm sorry, at 1:30, and that we  10 go until five.  Could you finish it all then if we  11 worked until five, or you say if you had the week-end  12 you could finish in half an hour?  13 MR. GRANT:  Yes. What I would do is I would reorchestrate myself  14 to do that, so I may be able to do that, but I think  15 that ultimately I would save time if I had time over  16 the week-end.  17 THE COURT: All right.  Well, I think I'll make an offer you  18 can't refuse, Mr. Grant.  We'll go as long as we have  19 to this afternoon to finish this chapter you're  20 talking about, and we'll give you an hour on Monday  21 morning from nine to ten.  Yes, Monday morning from  22 nine to ten.  23 MR. GRANT:  You would be available then?  24 THE COURT:  From nine to ten, yes.  We start in the Court of  25 Appeal at 10:15.  26 MR. GRANT:  That I think would be — that would give me the day  27 tomorrow to organize it.  28 THE COURT:  You'll have to finish at ten o'clock sharp, and not  29 only do I mean that we will adjourn at that time, but  30 you'll have to be finished by that time.  That's an offer I certainly can't refuse, my lord.  All right.  Is 1:30 convenient?  Yes, that's fine.  Madam reporter?  All right.  Thank you.  35 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court will recess until 1:30.  36  37 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCH RECESS)  38  3 9 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  40  41 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  42 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Grant?  4 3 MR. GRANT:  44 Q   Thank you, my lord.  Page 470.  45 Doctor, I was referring you to the institution of  46 gambling you refer to on page 470.  Among the Gitksan  47 or the Wet'suwet'en, is gambling referred to in the  31 MR. GRANT  32 THE COURT  33 MR. GRANT  34 THE COURT 12329  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 oral histories?  2 A   Yes, it is.  It's quite prominant.  There's instances  3 of people losing everything they possess through  4 gambling, which sets off a whole chain of subsequent  5 actions in the family history.  It's part of the  6 ongoing culture too.  It's reflected in the name of  7 one of the high chiefs of the Gitseguekla village.  8 Q   Who's that?  9 A   Guxsan.  His name means gambler, the gambler, and his  10 nax nox -- when he had his pole-raising feast he  11 performed the -- his spirit power, which is called nax  12 nox, and it involves throwing his gambling sticks down  13 in front of the other chiefs and challenging their  14 spiritual power with his spiritual power.  And this  15 whole thing was acted out with each of the high chiefs  16 who came as guests in that event.  17 Q   And you saw -- that's one of the feasts you  18 attended --  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   -- and you saw?  21 A   The whole institution astounded the fur traders who  22 thought people would be better guided saving their  23 possessions so they could go out hunting for furs, and  24 there was a lot of gambling around the forts, as I  25 understand it, in the Carrier regions, and also I know  26 from my research in Ontario, all the forts there  27 had -- people were gambling whenever they would -- it  28 would be -- it's a form of redistribution, as I've  29 argued here, where people can seek to make windfall  30 profits without the consequence of someone putting  31 demands on those profits through their ties of  32 kinship, or taking umbrage that they have suffered  33 from an imbalanced reciprocity.  34 Q   Is -- within the context of kinship societies, is  35 gambling viewed as a negative feature of the society?  36 A   You mean morally?  37 Q   Well, in any way, in terms of anthropological terms?  38 A   No, it's just -- it's treated as a feature of the  39 society and it's avidly entered into by all the actors  40 at one time or another in their life.  41 Q   You —  42 A  And it's integrated right into their public and  43 ceremonial lives as well as the day-to-day.  44 Q   You described earlier that the power potlatches that  45 are referred to in some of the oral histories were  46 exceptions or aberrations, and that's why they were  47 set out in those oral histories.  Is that the same 12330  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  A  Q  A  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  Q  with the gambling events that are described in the  oral histories?  Well, I would surmise so, yes, when it comes to the  level where the man has gambled away everything, all  the clothes and the possessions of his whole house  group, and whole village sometimes, the extended  wilnat'ahl family.  In some of the earlier adaawk  there are two groupings sometimes in one village or  sometimes across from each other on the other side of  the river, where they were completely impoverished,  and this would be considered an extreme.  And you  must -- in any of these things, you mustn't go to  extremes, like any institution.  And when people do go  to extremes, the consequences are remembered as points  in their oral history.  Like the story of the revenge  of the mountain goats for the lack of respect.  Those  things are kept in mind.  Have you -- is gambling still conducted in the modern  context among the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en?  Yes, it is .  And is it viewed negatively as a negative activity?  Well, there's -- there's discussion on it always that  people -- but it's not that there shouldn't be any  gambling, it should be -- it should be engaged in  under -- to a certain modicum.  There should be a  happy balance, but no, they -- there's no -- they're  not opposed to gambling, the people in the villages,  is my understanding, throughout that region.  :   Can I refer you to page 472 of your report?  I'm  sorry, I'm going to have to --  :  472?  471 initially,  lord, it says:  Half-way down that first paragraph, my  "These differences can be classified broadly  into two types:  those where the recruitment  of wealth-producing labour follows strict  laws of succession and inheritance,"  That's the first type.  "and..." secondly, "...those where only the  outline of the system remains - where the  ideological idiom of kinship may be  preserved but the actual chiefly lineage has  effectively broken the strictures of kinship 12331  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 reciprocity - "  2  3 Then going to the next page, 472:  4  5 "The Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en social  6 system conforms to the first type of chiefly  7 grouping, although undoubtedly its features  8 have fluctuated and changed through the  9 centuries, as the oral histories indicate."  10  11 And that's your conclusion with respect to those  12 two types of chiefly groupings; is that right?  13 A   Yes.  However, within -- the danger of making any  14 typology is there are always exceptions and usually  15 there will be an overlay of the features of one within  16 the other.  So it always bears further investigation  17 and further analysis and further collection of data.  18 But a type of society or a type of institution is  19 generally identified by its dominant features, but it  20 may have some of the features of the other type within  21 it, but they're not of a dominant nature.  22 Q   Now, is there any, within the Gitksan social system  23 and the Wet'suwet'en social system, is there any  24 aspects of the hierarchical situation of overarching  25 paramount chiefs?  26 A   No, there are no overarching paramount chiefs, to my  27 knowledge.  Are you speaking of today?  28 Q   Today, yes.  I'm saying in any aspect of the society.  29 A  Well, within the houses, yes, certainly.  30 Q   Yes.  31 A   There's a hierarchy of authority and there are people  32 of higher statuses in one lineage perhaps than -- than  33 in another.  34 Q   Okay.  What -- is that the same with the Wet'suwet'en  35 and the Gitksan?  36 A   Yes, it is.  Some -- to some extent it can be extended  37 to the level of the whole clan with the Wet'suwet'en,  38 and they're more at home with having been -- having  39 one chief speak on behalf of the whole clan.  40 Q   Okay.  On the bottom of 472, or half-way down, you  41 refer to:  42  43 "The Madeek Ada'ox tells of the forays of the  44 Kitselas people by canoe, to Kitimat,  45 Kitlobe and even Bella Bella in ancient  46 times (p.64 to 78), and later in wars with  47 the coastal Tsimshian, which were said to 12332  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 have occurred over several centuries (p.  2 184) . "  3  4 That reference is -- that is one of the references  5 that you refer to and that is the Madeek Ada'ox that  6 we filed this morning?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Exhibit 899.  9 And your conclusion is on page 473, that:  10  11 "The Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en social  12 system possessed a degree of hierarchy  13 before the coming of Europeans, but the  14 hierarchy was not consolidated into a  15 self-perpetuating aristocracy."  16  17 And that is your conclusion; is that right?  18 A   Yes.  And this was explained to me by informants again  19 and again, that no house can -- is allowed to have a  20 status higher than other houses, but you in the course  21 of paying off your debts and doing it with regularity  22 and with proper decorum, you can rise to the level of  23 a high -- what a high chief should really be.  So it's  24 a question of each generation being assessed against  25 the history of their -- of their house and the history  26 of their peers, but not everyone can fulfil the equal  27 status that is ascribed to them.  They have to achieve  28 as much of that as they can within the course of their  29 lifetime.  30 Q   Now, you state -- you go into the next session of gift  31 and reciprocity, and you describe just before that --  32 this is at the bottom of page 473 and going to 474:  33  34 "To understand the normative principles which  35 govern this process, and which militate  36 against social class formation over the  37 generations, it is important to examine the  38 nature of gift-giving which is central to  39 the reciprocal feast system."  40  41 And this is the reason you begin to deal with the  42 gift and reciprocity; is that right?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   One term that I just wanted to be -- you referred to,  45 which is prestations.  It's in that first paragraph  46 under that gift of reciprocity.  47 A   Yes. 12333  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  Q   What do you mean by that?  A   This is a term that's in use by anthropologists as an  analytical term for analysing the two sides of the  relationship in relation to a gift.  It simply refers  to the thing that is given.  So the -- you have your  original gift and that entails a set of expectations  in the part of the receiver, and when the receiver  returns he doesn't return a gift, he returns a  different prestation.  So it's a generic -- it's a  general term for the thing given in a transaction.  Q   Okay.  A   Two-way transaction.  GRANT:   Can you go to the top of 475, please?  COURT:  Does it have to be the same thing when you're giving  a gift back?  Is it the same thing, or can prestations  refer to exchanged gifts; one gives a cow and the  other gives a horse?  WITNESS:   They're both prestations in both instances, yes.  COURT:  In that case there's two prestations?  WITNESS:   Yes.  Yes.  COURT:  What's the difference between a prestation and a  gift?  WITNESS:   Well, the gift refers to the initial thing that  is given, and then you may have a series of  transactions flowing between the two people, but the  gift is the initial thing that kicks it off.  It's a noun instead of an adverb.  Sorry?  It's a noun.  It's a noun.  Yes.  COURT:  WITNESS:  COURT:  WITNESS:  GRANT:  Q   On the top of the next page you state:  A  "In the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en system the  receiving side ensures that it repays 'with  interest' or 'tops off the prestation it  has received, and it does so with something  extra, thereby eliminating the possibility  of prestige accruing to the creditor."  Now, can you explain that by example within the  Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en system?  Well, when -- when one chief gives another chief a  gift and it's not repaid, then the giver is a creditor  of the receiver.  And the receiver, to get out of  debt, a social debt, so to speak, will find the  correct opportunity to make a repayment and he'll give 12334  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 something a little extra.  It's like the baker's dozen  2 concept at the bakery and -- well, one example, when  3 the chiefs who are going to host a feast invite their  4 fellow chiefs as guests, they send out a party called  5 the Te'ts, that's T-e-'-t-s, and the Te'ts goes out  6 and invites the chief -- this is all done standing in  7 the chief's house.  Nobody sits down.  It's a very  8 formal relationship.  Sometimes today a younger chief  9 will try to do it by telephone and will be censured.  10 They go there and in some cases they actually  11 spread-eagle down over the chief who's going to be  12 invited.  13 Q   Right.  14 A   I've seen that.  And the chief who is being invited  15 will say whether -- whether he's coming or not.  16 Either he says right away or he says "I'll let you  17 know tomorrow or shortly."  And to register that he's  18 going to arrive, he gives usually these days $20,  19 something like that.  When he gets to the feast, at a  20 certain period in the transactions there are all sorts  21 of things that go on there.  22 Q   Yes.  23 A   The host gives back the $20 to all the high chiefs, or  24 whatever the specific sum is, plus something a little  25 bit extra, two or three dollars, five dollars.  But if  26 they were to give back $40, this would be considered  27 as shaming all these chiefs and really a non-U thing  2 8 to do.  29 THE COURT:  Is that what Boas talked about in the gift of  30 blankets?  31 THE WITNESS:   It's related, yes, but he's analysing what I call  32 the power potlatching.  33 THE COURT:  Yes.  34 THE WITNESS:   Where there would be literally thousands of  35 blankets exchanged.  36 THE COURT: And you would give an enemy a lot of blankets so he'd  37 have to give you more back?  38 THE WITNESS:   To shame him, yes.  To show that — to work out  39 the status between you.  4 0 MR. GRANT:  41 Q   That's actually what I was just going to lead to.  The  42 description you gave of the Te'ts, for example, where  43 you give a little bit more to top it off, is there a  44 distinction between that and the power potlatches  45 where -- that you've described earlier?  46 A  Well, the power potlatches, you're giving all you can  47 to -- and then you -- at the end the giver is 12335  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 challenging the receiver to up the ante.  So you're --  2 if you want to challenge the other person's material  3 wealth and accumulation, then that's the sort of route  4 that is taken.  5 Q   And that's the situation that Boas was describing?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   I'd like to take you to page -- I'm sorry, do you have  8 something more than that?  9 A   No, it's really to do with feasting I guess.  10 Q   Okay.  On page 477 -- well, I guess I have to start on  11 476 to put this in context, Doctor.  It says:  12  13 "Fourth, the chiefly exchanges are  14 elaborated by the extra giving, receiving  15 and counter-giving of the finest foodstuffs  16 and items of clothing and adornment which  17 the chief's kin group and in-laws have been  18 able to secure for the occasion.  From the  19 available evidence, most of the exchange of  20 goods across the region in pre-contact times  21 was initiated and usually carried out by  22 means of such ceremonial giving.  As Gunther  23 notes in reference to a Nootkan chief that  24 Captain Galiano encountered in the 1780's:  25  26 'He offered to entertain the visitors if  27 they would come to his village, but he  28 did all his trading under the guise of  29 exchanging presents.  This was a  30 frequent practice among the important  31 chiefs, who said they did not want  32 common barter but offered the commanders  33 of expeditions presents, usually of sea  34 otter skins, and in return expected  35 gifts of value.'"  36  37 A   "Of equal value".  38 Q   "Expected gifts of equal value".  Thank you.  39 Then back to what you state:  40  41 "The ceremonial giving itself did not,  42 and does not constitute economic exchange  43 and distribution.  It is a public ceremonial  44 celebration of social relations, kinship  45 positions, political process, ranking and  46 the demonstration of House and clan honour."  47 12336  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 And there you're referring in all parts, except  2 your reference to Capital Galiano, to the Gitksan and  3 Wet'suwet'en; is that right?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Now, are there -- I would like to ask you, is there  6 any cross-cultural examples, other than what Captain  7 Galiano says, of similar relationships with other  8 groups?  9 A   Oh, certainly.  It was the whole medium of interaction  10 between the British and the Iroquois, for example, and  11 all the surrounding peoples in Eastern Canada and the  12 Eastern Seaboard of the States.  13 Q   Okay.  14 A   The same sort of ceremonial gift-giving initiated and  15 sealed all the agreements.  16 Q   Now, I referred you this morning to Brown's account --  17 A   In fact, the -- sorry, but the events that led to the  18 Royal Proclamation of 1763 were instigated or were  19 precipitated to a large degree when the British  20 decided to stop this reciprocal gift-giving with their  21 Indian allies who -- after the cessation of  22 hostilities with the French.  And it had been a whole  23 way of trade and interaction for a very long time  24 around the Great Lakes and suddenly it stopped, and it  25 precipitated -- it was one of the main factors  26 precipitating the Pontiac Rebellion of 1763.  27 Q   And that was part of what you were looking at when you  28 did your Iroquois work?  29 A   Yes.  Yes.  30 Q   Now, you recall this morning that I referred you to  31 the William Brown report of 1826, Exhibit 895, and  32 there was a description there where Smogelgem was  33 dissatisfied with his -- the goods he had.  Is that  34 connected to this or analogous to?  35 A   Oh, certainly.  It's a description of a giving and a  36 receiving and a returned prestation.  The trader  37 gave -- or the Indians gave furs and the trader  38 responded with trade goods, but then he found out the  39 following day it wasn't quite what they expected and  40 the process had to be -- had to be altered.  The  41 perceptions of the native people on what was an  42 equivalent value was different from his perceptions  43 related to similar trade in other parts of the Hudson  44 Bay Company's realms at that time.  45 Q   Okay.  Can you go to page 479 of your report where you  46 talk -- where you refer to Oberg.  Oberg was an  47 anthropologist as well, wasn't he? 12337  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And maybe you can just keep that other reference open.  3 I think this is where you may refer back to it.  4  5 "Oberg describes the type of interpeople  6 bargaining on the Northwest Coast as  7 follows:  8 'Exchanges were made publicly,  9 accompanied by a great deal of haggling.  10 Each side set its prices high and then  11 came down to a level where exchange was  12 possible.  Lesser traders and  13 representatives of other house groups  14 bartered on the side.  The whole  15 proceedings smacked very much of a  16 market place.  When the party was small  17 and the house chief bartered for the  18 group as a whole, his every act was  19 carefully watched by his kinsmen.  Quite  20 often a shrewd old woman was taken along  21 who kept a check on exchange values.  22 The two leaders would call out the  23 values of the goods to be exchanged in  24 rotation and, when the price suited the  25 group, a shout would go out signifying  26 that exchange was agreeable at that  27 point."  28  29 And there he's talking about the Tlingit; is that  30 right?  31 A   He's talking about the trading that the Coast Tlingit  32 did with the adjacent Athabaskans.  33 Q   Okay.  Then you state:  34  35 "Even the bargaining process held  36 expectations similar to those of  37 gift-giving. The giver did not seek the  38 highest price possible so much as he  39 expected to be recompensed with a greater  40 amount of value than he had given.  This led  41 to misunderstandings between the early  42 Hudson Bay Company factors and the Native  43 peoples.  The European traders assessed the  44 furs in terms of the 'going rate' that the  45 market would bear while the Native peoples  46 expected that they would be recompensed  47 according to the etiquette of repaying a 1233?  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  Q  A  MR. GRANT  Q  greater value at the risk of causing  insult."  And that's your opinion, that latter part I've  read?  Yes.  And is that where you are referring, for example, to  the description of William Brown?  Yes.  I just note that that's referenced at Exhibit 895,  pages 17 to 19, my lord.  895, pages 17 to 19?  Yes.  Thank you.  That's tab 87.  Now, you make reference on the top of 480 to  another reference of William Brown.  It's the same  William Brown?  Same William Brown, I believe from his diary.  Okay.  Page 480.  You refer again to Oberg on page  481, and there you -- Oberg states that:  "'The great man...'"  -- with reference to the Tlingit.  "'...was not a successful fisherman or hunter  as was true of the Eskimo or the Athapaskan  of Northern Canada, but a man who used these  goods not for immediate consumption, but  exchanged them for such things as slaves and  coppers which were given away at potlatches.  He was eminent not because he was rich in  food, but because he had acquired honour  through the distribution of goods derived  from food.'  Oberg here reveals..."  -- this is your statement.  "Oberg here reveals the two influences which  are blended in the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  cultures - coast and inland - in a manner  which is at the once hierarchical and  egalitarian, that involves both the 12339  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 sectional maximization of benefits and the  2 reciprocal obligations of each and every  3 House."  4  5 I wonder if you could explain those last two  6 phrases in your conclusion there, the "maximization of  7 benefits and the reciprocal obligations of each and  8 every house."  9 A  Well, it's -- I'm referring to the structure of  10 relations within the houses and between the houses.  11 You have the hierarchical structure within the house,  12 and the ideology of reciprocal relations between the  13 houses.  In the quote above, you have -- from Oberg,  14 discussing the house system of the Tlingit, in his  15 last line he explains, to me anyway, how this whole  16 system of power potlatching evolves out of the  17 reciprocal giving of food in the conventional feasting  18 system.  19 Q   Now, I'd like to refer you to page 482, the Gitksan  20 and Wet'suwet'en trade, and you start by referring to  21 Wolf.  And this is Eric Wolf that you're referring to  22 here?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And if you could -- the black book, that is the latest  25 document, I think that the -- well, I'll go through  26 it.  This is an excerpt from that book; is that right?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   And the first part is with respect to Wolf's concepts  29 of kin-ordered mode of production in which he analyses  30 the kinship-ordered modes of production which you've  31 already referred to?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And you relied in part upon him and his analysis in  34 your own research?  35 A   Yes, I did.  36 THE COURT:  What's the date of this book or paper?  37 THE WITNESS:   I believe it's — it's in the cited bibliography.  38 THE COURT: All right.  Thank you, fine.  3 9    MR. GRANT:  40 Q   1982 University of California.  41 Now, I'd like to refer you to page 185.  Do you  42 have that?  4 3 A   I do.  44 Q   Okay.  Now, I'm going to read from the article, my  45 lord, because there's more in the article than was in  46 this report that I think is relevant.  The first  47 statement is that: 12340  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2 "The newcomers quickly realized that  3 they were dealing with trade partners as  4 astute and calculating as any they had  5 encountered on their voyages.  They had, in  6 fact, entered an area of extensive native  7 trade."  8  9 Now, this is his comment with respect to the  10 Northwest Coast; is that right?  11 A   That's right.  12 Q   During the fur trade era?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And do you agree with that opinion and adopt it as  15 your own?  16 A   I agree with that opinion, particularly as it applies  17 to the coastal -- the coastal peoples.  18 Q   Okay.  What about with respect to the Gitksan and/or  19 the Wet'suwet'en?  Now, of course, I'm not -- of  20 course the early ships didn't come there.  I'm saying  21 would it be fair to say that the Gitksan were trade  22 partners as astute as any -- as the Europeans would  23 have encountered on their voyages?  24 A   I don't think so, from that citation of William Brown,  25 for example.  26 Q   Yes.  27 A   The people were preoccupied with another evaluation  28 system than that of turning a profit through trade.  29 Q   Okay.  My lord, I -- then you go -- I'm sorry?  30 A   They were demanding the dressed hides because they  31 were necessary or useful for them in their feasting  32 cycles rather than for turning a direct profit in  33 terms of maximizing goods that they could sell in  34 another market at a mark-up.  35 Q   Okay.  Now, this book "Europe and the People Without  36 History" analyses different aspects of that -- of  37 contact?  38 A   It's -- it's an interesting account.  It's written by  39 an anthropologist who has been studying all the  40 ethnohistorical work of the last 50-odd years in  41 relation to the effects of the expansion of the  42 European economy into the rest of the world between  43 1400 and 1800, in terms of what we now know or have  44 some idea of in terms of the social structure at the  45 time of contact in the different parts of the world,  46 and then how the various phases of the unfolding of  47 the European economy affected that social structure; 12341  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 such as the fur trade and the slave trade and  2 settlement and growth of industry.  3 Q   Okay.  4 A   Or beginnings of industry.  5 Q   Now, Professor Wolf goes on to state, and I will quote  6 here from your report, which is the -- follows  7 immediately after the two sentences I've just read,  8 that:  9  10 "'Since resources in the Northwest Coast area  11 were often localized, there had long been  12 trade between islanders and mainlanders, as  13 well as between coast-dwellers and inland  14 populations.  Thus olachen ran only in  15 restricted areas, such as the Nass and  16 certain rivers and inlets along Queen  17 Charlotte Sound; people came from far away  18 with goods to trade for olachen oil, a  19 monopoly held by groups with rights held  20 over the fishing tracts.  Hunting for land  21 animals was especially important in the  22 upriver communities.  The northern Tlingit  23 made the Chilkat blankets woven with  24 mountain goat wool and cedar bark.'"  25  26 THE COURT:  That's C-h-i-1-k-a-t?  27 THE WITNESS:   K-a-t.  2 8    MR. GRANT:  29 Q   Capital C.  30  31 "'...Copper was brought from the Copper River  32 area to the Chilkat and taken south from  33 there.  The Haida and Nootka were especially  34 known for their fine canoes .... The islanders  35 supplied the mainlanders with dried venison,  36 seal oil, dried fish, shellfish, green stone  37 for tools, cedar bark, cedar bark baskets,  38 cedar wood for ceremonial artifacts, and yew  39 wood for bows and storage boxes.  The  40 mainlanders furnished the islanders with  41 hides and furs, cloth and clothing, olachen  42 and olachen oil, cranberries, horned spoons,  43 baskets of spruce roots, and Chilkat  44 blankets ... The mainlanders also traded with  45 the Athabaskan speakers of the interior,  46 bringing cedar bark baskets, fish oil, iron  47 and shell ornaments to them and returning 12342  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 with hides, moccasins, thongs and placer  2 copper.'"  3  4 A   This is -- that citation is an abbreviation of the  5 whole passage in here which deals with the goods from  6 the whole of the B.C. and southern Alaskan coast.  7 Q   That's that whole paragraph?  8 A   Yes.  9 MR. GRANT:   Oh, I see.  It's a couple of paragraphs.  Yes.  10 Possibly tab 3 could be marked as the next exhibit  11 number, my lord?  12 THE COURT:  All right.  13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 900.  14  15 (EXHIBIT 900: Tab 3, "Europe and the People Without  16 History", by Eric R. Wolf")  17  18 MR. GRANT:  I don't know if I win a prize or not.  19 THE COURT:  I wouldn't push your luck too hard on that one.  2 0 MR. GRANT:  21 Q   I almost closed up my notes.  I suggest I was  22 rewarding myself.  23 Now, Doctor, you go on to say:  24  25 "Trade networks between coast and  26 interior were much used in the fur trade  27 period for conducting barter and trade, and  28 transporting cargo.  The oral histories  29 indicate that trails and river systems used  30 in this trade were used for regular  31 communication, social intercourse and the  32 exchange of goods prior to the advent of  33 Europeans.  Even today members of House  34 groups still obtain coast foods for their  35 own consumption and to give away to friends  36 and neighbours and to people who live out of  37 the area.  Most enduring, indigenous trade  38 in the region consisted of barter in  39 subsistence goods and equipment between  40 islands, the mainland coast, and the  41 interior.  The Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en by  42 virtue of their location at the conjunction  43 of three major North American climatic and  44 biotic zones - coast, interior plateau and  45 boreal forest described in Chapter IV.4.a.,  46 and located between the coastal and interior  47 peoples - were actively engaged in barter 12343  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  long before the arrival of the Europeans."  And that is your conclusion with respect to the  continuity of trade?  A   Yes.  Unfortunately, many of these things don't show  up in the archaeological record because of the acidity  of the soil and the fact that they're made of organic  materials that just don't last.  It's consistent with  all the other available source material.  There have  been some interesting finds in the Olympic peninsula  where mud covered a large village for 700 years, and a  lot of very fine cedar work and carved wooden work and  skin and hide artefacts were preserved by that mud,  give us some indication of the organic material at  that period.  Q   Now, I go to 485 and a statement that you make there,  fifth line down:  "Between 1876 and roughly 1960, much of the  trade with coastal people took place during  the weeks when cannery work brought Native  groups together from all over the region."  And here you're talking about work at coastal  canneries; is that right?  That's right.  Now --  Where did you find that passage, Mr. Grant?  I'm sorry, my lord, 485.  Oh, all right.  Thank you.  Four lines down from the top.  Yes.  Thank you.  A  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  Doctor, yesterday you described the annual seasonal  round, and now you're talking about trade, and you  refer to the fact here that the trade took place when  cannery work brought native groups together.  Canneries were developed after contact; is that right?  A   Canneries were developed after contact.  Yes.  Q   What is your opinion as to the impact of the  involvement in the coastal fishery and canneries on  the annual seasonal round of the Gitksan and  Wet'suwet'en?  A  Well, I would say that the cannery work is -- fits in  to one of the slots in the seasonal round.  It's  analogous to the annual travel out of the  Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en area into the Nass and the 12344  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Kitimat areas for the oolichan run, when they would  2 take in, according to the oral histories and peoples'  3 accounts and so on, they would take their local  4 specialties for -- to give as gifts to have the right  5 to fish.  They just followed the same procedure when  6 people were drawn out to the coast to work for that  7 six weeks in the summer during the fishing season  8 putting up fish in the canneries in the Nass and in  9 particularly in the lower Skeena.  10 Q   Well —  11 A   It was -- sorry.  12 Q   Can you comment whether the involvement of the  13 Gitksan -- the Wet'suwet'en were also involved in the  14 canneries; is that right?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Can you comment on whether the involvement of the  17 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en in the coastal commercial  18 fishery in the period you've described here, 1876 to  19 1960, had a detrimental effect on their social  20 structure and seasonal round?  21 A   I don't think it would have much effect at all because  22 it's not disruptive of the basic flow of the -- of the  23 season, except that a portion of each family had to --  24 had to find access to salmon if -- they had to either  25 divide their family members so that some stayed home  26 to put up salmon along the river, or else to get  27 permission around the lower river to do food fishing  28 in the times when they were not working in the cannery  29 or working with their fish boats.  And that procedure  30 still goes on today and it fits in within the slot  31 when, before canneries, they would be gathered  32 together at their fishing sites along the river in  33 their territories.  34 Q   Now, you state on the same page that:  35  36 "One of the most important features..."  37  38 This is the next paragraph, my lord.  39  40 "...of trade for the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  41 was, and is, occasioned by the annual spring  42 run of oolichan, on the Nass and Gardiner  43 Canal."  44  45 And then you cite as -- the contemporary concern  46 by Tenimgyet, now in evidence here, as an example.  47 Why do you conclude, other than that reference, that 12345  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR.  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  this was -- this was and remains one of the most  important features of trade?  You may want to take the  historical statement first.  Well, I've laid it out on one of the diagrams in here  showing the flow of goods between the coast and the  interior.  Uh-huh.  Very -- it's -- one of the nodules or the nodes of  trade was the oolichan fishing grounds.  Uh-huh.  It funnelled in gift produce from the islands, the  Queen Charlotte Islands, and the down coast islands,  and the islands of the Alaskan Panhandle.  It  funnelled in produce from the northern part of the  Alaskan Panhandle, such as copper and Chilkat  blankets, all the cedar products and sea mammal  products from the island belt.  These all came into --  for trade and exchange to the oolichan -- main  oolichan places. The same thing about the hides and  the furs and the dried berries were brought down by  the people by the box load on their backs when they --  that's -- it was an efficient system like a railway.  You didn't have empty box-cars in either direction.  People were lugging their gift foods when they went to  put up their oolichan oil, and then they would come  home with the oil on their backs, relaying their packs  back and forth --  Okay.  -- two and three loads at a time, so that they say  they walked to the Nass three times before they got  there and three times before they got home.  That's reflected in the ethnographies as well as your  own research?  Oh, yes.  Yes.  And in the commission evidence of the  elders and those land claim transcripts, and so on.  I'd refer you to page 486 and I'll --  How far a walk is that if you're -- from Moricetown,  first, and how would they go, down to Kitwanga?  WITNESS: The route -- from Moricetown there was one trade  route which went over -- went through the Gitseguekla  Valley behind that big massif which is -- which Roche  de Boule is the centre of.  COURT:  Yes.  WITNESS:   And then they would go from there to Kitwanga and  Kitwancool and into the Nass.  COURT:  What would that be, 50 miles?  WITNESS:   It would be a little more than that.  Q  A  Q  A  GRANT:  COURT: 12346  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  COURT:  More than that?  WITNESS:   Yes.  COURT:  And you can walk with that kind of work 25 miles a  day?  WITNESS:   Well, packing fairly heavy loads.  I forget the  amount of time.  There is in the -- in Horetzky's  accounts of the trails at the end of the century he  does explain how many days it took.  COURT:  It would be a five or six-day walk probably?  WITNESS:   It would be, and then you have added days because  of all the relaying of the weights.  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  THE  MR.  COURT:  GRANT:  Q  A  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Can you just refer to the map that you put in after  page 496?  However, I'd like to say one other thing, that the --  I don't think that most of the oolichan oil went  directly by the -- on the feet of the Wet'suwet'en  from Moricetown -- or to Moricetown.  It went through,  for the most part, through the Gitksan and then was  traded,  peoples.  I see.  It was a main item of trade between the two  Now, if you --  However, when the -- when the Wet'suwet'en were at  Hagwilget they did certainly make the journey to the  Nass .  There's an adaawk about that?  Yes.  And Jenness talks about his experiences of  getting this information too.  And I believe Johnny  David talks about it in his commission.  Okay.  Can you refer to figure 9 there?  Now, this  is -- is this the same map as George MacDonald had in  his article?  Yes, it is .  Have you --  With a few modifications.  Okay.  Can you explain those modifications?  Well, I think that Dr. MacDonald put it together  rather rapidly because I followed the listing of  trails that he described and, for example, the  Kitwancool trail, the first one, had no number, so I  gave it number 0, which was -- is right on the map  above where it says "Kitwanga Fort".  There's a little  circle with a "0".  And there were a couple of others  that I understood from the description, but were 12347  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 either not noted or noted wrong on the map.  So I  2 think I've adjusted where it says number 19 and 20,  3 and maybe number 15, I can't remember, down by Port  4 Simpson.  5 Q   So what you did was took appendix E, the description  6 which we've referred to earlier, my lord, of the  7 George MacDonald trails, you took that and then you  8 compared it with the map and you made corrections in  9 numbering to reflect --  10 A   I think with number 15 there's one numbering way up at  11 Meziadin Lake.  12 Q   Yes.  13 A   But this was a route down to Port Simpson, so I put a  14 15 down to that area.  15 Q   So on your map there's two 15's, but the one --  16 A   I'd have to check that, but basically it's his map.  I  17 just tried to make it consistent with his description.  18 Q   Yes.  19 A  And these anomalies are all cleared up in the version  20 of it that came out in the Canadian Historical Atlas.  21 Q   Which has been filed?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And then you have -- on the top there is a mileage  24 chart and a kilometre chart of 20 miles is shown as --  25 appears to be a half inch, there's a scale there,  26 which would indicate the distances between -- along  27 the trails?  2 8 A   Uh-huh.  29 Q   Now, can I take you back for a moment to page 486?  30 Now, here I'd like to refer you, you say at the top  31 there:  32  33 "It is unlikely that oolichan grease  34 amounted to more than 5 % of the annual fat  35 intake of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en in  36 pre-contact times."  37  38 And that is your conclusion?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And you used the calculations that are found below in  41 appendix D, and in appendix D you narrate your  42 calculations?  43 A   Yes, I did a rough estimate based on the -- the  44 specific gravity of pure fat and how much caloric  45 content it has and how to obtain a volume figure, a  46 thousand grams.  The way it's done is that --  47 THE COURT:  Excuse me, haven't we been through all this? 12348  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  MR.  GRANT  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  MR.  GRANT  11  12  THE  COURT  13  THE  WITNE  14  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  GRANT  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  A  44  45  46  47  He had alluded to it.  Just -- if you can just wait a  moment, Doctor, I'd like you to go to appendix D.  There was -- I just had referred to him -- just have  very few questions about this.  First of all, on page 2 there you say:  It would  require 55,000 boxes of grease.  Should that read  45,000?  Yes, that should read 45,000 boxes of grease.  :   That's a typographical error.  And then the second  point I have --  :  Still phenomenal?  3S:   It's still phenomenal, yes, but not quite as  phenomenal.  :  Yes.  Yes.  That doesn't change your opinion at all?  No.  And then you say -- you utilized analysis of specific  gravity which were published and which other  anthropologists have used; is that right?  Yes.  Yes.  And those include, as well as Dr. Richard Lee, they  include I believe it's Dr. Rappaport?  Dr. Rappaport has used his caloric count and analysis  in his work in New Guinea among the Tsembaga,  T-s-e-m-b-a-g-a, in a book called "Pigs for the  Ancestor".  And he's a renowned anthropologist?  He's the president of the American Anthropological  Association.  Okay. And the only other question I have from this,  Doctor, is that in the bottom of page 658, you say  this would entail -- after you explain how much were  carried -- this would entail something like 4,000  boxes of grease carried inland from the Nass and the  Gardiner Canal by the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  annually; roughly half of which would be traded and  given as gifts to easterly neighbours.  Now, my question to you, Doctor, is why do you say  that roughly half of that would be traded and given as  gifts to easterly neighbours?  Well, I have no hard facts in relation to the distant  past, but from asking my informants in the community  and observing what they do today, and how -- asking  them how much of their -- the grease that they have in  the family they give away, and where it goes.  I 12349  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 think -- I'm just arguing from the present on this  2 one.  3 Q   Okay.  But then you -- so today about half of it is  4 given away or bartered?  5 A   Yes.  Yes.  6 Q   Okay.  And that appendix forms part of your opinion  7 doesn't it?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   Appendix D.  Okay. Can I refer you now to -- my lord,  10 I don't think it's necessary to read this, but I'd  11 like to refer you for reference to page 488, and the  12 section about starting, "Traditionally, the Gitksan  13 who go to the Nass for oolichan are hosted by  14 kinsmen."  15 And you go on to describe that, Dr. Daly, in the  16 balance of that page, and you refer to and rely on  17 Jenness and also on certain of the adaawk which you've  18 cited; is that right?  19 A  Which specific time period?  Which part of the --  20 Q   Okay.  You're -- maybe I should read it to you.  21  22 "Traditionally, the Gitksan who go to the  23 Nass for oolichan are hosted by kinsmen."  24  25 This seems to be --  26 A   This is contemporary.  27 Q   -- contemporary?  2 8 A   Uh-huh.  29 Q  30 "They give their local food specialties to  31 their hosts and receive in return certain  32 coast foods.  Gitksan without kinship links,  33 and the Wet'suwet'en who travelled to the  34 Nass at this time of time would arrive in  35 groups and be formally met by Nishga chiefs,  36 who would come out onto the river ice as  37 these inlanders approached the Nishga  38 village."  39  40 In this you rely on Jenness; is that right?  41 A   Oh, this is the period of roughly around contact or  42 the -- after the time that the Wet'suwet'en for the  43 most part had moved to Hagwilget due to the slide and  44 they were going down, according to Jenness, to engage  45 in the trade.  The adaawk certainly talk about lots of  4 6 incidents and sometimes the people who went down from  47 Kitwancool and Kitwanga were very -- had their noses 12350  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  put out of joint because they were not -- if they  weren't closely connected by kinship ties, they were  ascribed a host and they couldn't choose who they  wanted to fish with and interact with while they were  there, and that's recorded in the adaawks.  Okay.  Now, you state that:  "The Nishga took the initiative to welcome  the Gitksan to their territory and to lodge  them with allotted House groups.  These  Gitksan had no say as to whom they would  have as their hosts.  This sometimes led to  a degree of animosity."  And there you refer to one of the adaawk -- that's  at tab 66, my lord, of the second document book.  I  won't refer to it, but you may want to note it there.  66?  It's tab 66.  Yes.  Okay.  So it would be Exhibit 896  66.  "The inlanders would reciprocate for the use  rights to the river and to the  grease-rendering sites, cooking stones and  firewood.  They gave their hosts foodstuffs,  hides, horn spoons, and furs.  Thereafter  the Gitksan worked together with their hosts  to harvest the oolichan.  They also engaged  in barter with other Nass visitors."  And you've relied as well -- you've concluded that  this is a historical event and also contemporary?  It  goes on today?  Yes.  And you've relied as well on Barbeau and Jenness; also  on Boas for this?  Yes.  And Poudrier?  Poudrier's account, yes.  Okay. And in fact on 489 you refer specifically to  Poudrier, and I just note that for reference to the  court.  On the top of 489 you rely on Alfred Joseph, Daly  interview notes with respect to the Wet'suwet'en going  to Kitimat, and also up to the Dean Channel.  That's 12351  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 also referred to in his evidence, isn't it?  2 A   Yes.  Well, I'd seen the reference in Poudrier that  3 the -- what he called the Carrier people would come  4 down to the Kitlobe arm of the Gardiner Canal in the  5 Haisla area at the time of the oolichan and pack up  6 that very steep trail up to the plateau, the grease  7 from the -- that had been put up down there.  And I  8 asked Alfred Joseph if this was the case, and he said  9 he had -- he confirmed it that many of the old people  10 had told him the same thing.  11 Q   And page 490 after quoting Poudrier, you state:  12  13 "This description indicates that the grease  14 was bartered from people to people, within  15 their own territories; that is, the more  16 inland peoples would journey to obtain the  17 product from their western neighbours - the  18 Gitksan going to the Nass and Kitimat, the  19 eastern Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en going to  20 such locations as Kitwancool, the Babine  21 going to Hagwilget, and sometimes,  22 Moricetown, and so on, eastward."  23  24 And that's what you were describing to his  25 lordship and that is your conclusion; is that right?  26 A   Yes.  And the same thing occurred between Bella Coola  27 and the Williams Lake area.  28 Q   Okay.  29 A  As recounted in the journals of Alexander McKenzie.  30 Q   Okay.  Now, in terms of your analysis of trade, I'd  31 like to turn to page 491.  You also took into account  32 abundance of different foods or different values I  33 guess, goods, and you state there:  34  35 "The abundance of reliable, easily  36 preservable salmon, and sweet, easily  37 preservable berries, as well as ungulate  38 hides, thongs and sinew, furs and dried game  39 have provided the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  40 with their basic items of barter and gift  41 exchange with coastal people.  Their central  42 position between the interior and coast has  43 put the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en into a good  44 and longstanding trade position.  (Figure 5  45 shows my tabulation of a number of important  46 factors concerning the resource background  47 to the trade of the Gitksan and 12352  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Wet'suwet'en, whose territories are in the  2 transitional zone between the North, Coast  3 and Interior Plateau biogeoclimatic zones."  4  5 And just the page before that you have a chart,  6 "Figure 5, Pre-contact Skeena and Upper Fraser  7 Produce", and there is your -- you drew up that chart;  8 is that right?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And in drawing up that chart, you've relied on, with  11 respect to the fish, Mike Morrell's opinion?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   The game, Dr. Hatler?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   The berries, Sybille Haeussler?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   The optimum food-drawing Chilton and Haeussler?  18 A   Chilton and Haeussler, yes.  19 Q   The oolichan grease, the ethnographies, as well as the  20 oral histories?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And -- just a moment.  23 A   The same for other grease.  24 Q   Okay.  And the obsidian, the archaeological --  25 A  And the reliable winter fish was Morrell too.  26 Q   Okay.  And the obsidian was the archaeological record?  27 A   Yes.  2 8 Q   Okay.  And you show -- what you're endeavouring to  29 show on this chart is where there's available and  30 non-available goods?  31 A   Uh-huh.  32 Q   Now, then you've --  33 A   I've broken it down into coast, mountain, and interior  34 basically.  35 Q   Okay.  And the "G-W transition" is the Gitksan and  36 Wet'suwet'en?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Now, just going over two pages, there is a diagram and  39 this is based on the Haeussler availability of  40 berries, the berry atlas; is that right?  41 A   Yes.  And I've made the same division there in the  42 section on distribution.  43 Q   Yes.  44 A   On the left — the left-hand — left half of the  45 columns on "Distribution" are coastal or coast-like,  46 and the right half are the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en area  47 roughly, the different biogeoclimatic zones, and the 12353  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 breakdown of the species.  It's all material from  2 Haeussler and is on -- is on the map that was done  3 from her work.  There's some problems with the -- I'd  4 like to qualify in the tentative groupings on the  5 right-hand side.  6 Q   Okay.  This is the chart after page 491, my lord.  7 It's the berry distribution chart.  Just a moment.  8 Now, there's tentative groupings that you have down on  9 the right-hand side and you said you'd like to qualify  10 that?  11 A   Yes, I was loading my argument a bit because --  12 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, I object to those in toto because we know,  13 because we heard Miss Haeussler, that not only was  14 that evidence not tendered from her on sweetness or  15 sourness, but she didn't give any opinion at all about  16 drying capabilities of the berries.  None.  That part  17 of her report was explicitly taken out by Miss Mandell  18 in leading Miss Haeussler's evidence, so there is no  19 foundation whatsoever in the evidence, if all this  20 witness referred to was Haessler, for that evidence,  21 and it should all go.  There's just no foundation for  22 it.  23 MR. GRANT:  What is my friend saying when he says this should  24 all go?  What are you referring to?  25 MR. WILLMS:  Well, the column that you were just referring to  26 the witness, "Tentative Groupings", which he said he  27 relied on Haeussler.  2 8    MR. GRANT:  29 Q   Well, I'd just like the witness -- I may well --  30 that's what the witness -- I just want the witness to  31 explain now, and then we can deal with the objection  32 because, you know, I -- we may not even be in  33 opposition on this position if my friend would just  34 bear with me for a moment.  35 The reference to "Tentative Groupings", was that  36 based on Haeussler?  37 A   No, I was -- I rather loaded the argument before --  38 before I really considered the matter, and I tend to  39 agree with the objection because the berries in the  40 first -- of the first three berries, from the  41 perception of the people on the coast, there's no  42 problem with sweetness in their eyes.  43 Q   Right.  44 A   However, the one where -- which is marked sweet  45 berries in the middle, the huckleberry.  46 Q   Yes.  47 A   Sim maa'y or digee, d-i-g-e-e, and sim maa'y is s-i-m 12354  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  m-a-a-'-y, that is a highly sought-after berry for  trade wherever it grows because it is noted for its  sweetness all up and down the British Columbia coast.  Q   Okay.  A  And of course anyone who's tasted one knows that soap  berry is not sweet at all.  Q   Right.  So what you're saying, basically, is that his  lordship should disregard that last column --  A   Yes.  Q   -- in considering that chart?  A   Yes.  MR. GRANT:   Okay.  That's exactly what I was getting to when my  friend jumped in, my lord.  MR. WILLMS:  I was just trying to help my friend by cutting it,  my lord, but he can take his time.  THE COURT:  I've drawn a line through it.  It's as good as  striking something from the record.  MR.  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Just -- I just would like to ask you about two of the  species, the huckleberry and the soap berry in terms  of -- based on your research, the significance they  have as examples for trade and trade patterns.  Well, they grow in the areas of the Gitksan and  Wet'suwet'en.  They don't -- basically they don't grow  on the coast.  Yes.  And they're highly prized in both areas, so from that  you can surmise that they're an item of trade in terms  of foodstuffs.  Okay.  And they're -- on the coast as well when there's a  feast or potlatch, they're considered a respectable  thing to serve your guests because you can froth them  up like whip cream.  Now, you refer on the next page, 492, to how chiefs --  and you rely here on Tenimgyet's evidence as well as  other --  They're very particular about the quality of the  berries they eat.  And they -- and the quality that they bring into the  feast hall?  Yes.  And they make fun of each other's berries behind  their backs too.  Well, some people are known to have  high quality berries, but if the host doesn't give  berries that are considered to be up to scratch,  there's talk about it.  Okay.  Now, you state there that -- the description on 12355  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 the top of page 492:  2  3 "Their description of the berry qualities is  4 not unlike that of the vintner discussing  5 wines."  6  7 And then you refer to Tenimgyet's difficulties  8 with respect to certain berries?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Now, just at the bottom of that page you say -- state:  11  12 "The summer village areas of the  13 Gitksan, Wet'suwet'en, like those of the  14 neighbouring Tahltan and Carrier-Sekani are  15 highly favourable for the rapid and  16 efficient drying of foodstuffs to be  17 preserved for winter storage and trade,  18 especially for trade with the more moist  19 coastal areas."  20  21 And here this is partly based on what has been  22 described to you and what you have observed --  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   -- at the smokehouses?  25 A  And also I have in mind such reports as that Heller  26 and Scott one I mentioned this morning, that in  27 certain years on the coast the conditions can be the  28 same as the interior.  In other years they can have  29 disastrous wet summers and nothing dries, so --  30 Q   Okay.  And you quote Heller and Scott in fact on the  31 next page, and you rely on that.  And Heller and  32 Scott, what are they?  What's their fields?  33 A   They're nutritionalists.  34 Q   Okay.  And then you go to page 493.  You state that:  35  36 "The evapotranspiration rates of the  37 Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en territories, thus have  38 repercussion for the longstanding Gitksan  39 and Wet'suwet'en trade in foodstuffs with  40 coastal peoples."  41  42 And here you're relying upon evapotranspiration  43 rates as described by --  44 A   By Chilton.  45 Q   By Chilton in his report?  46 A   Uh-huh.  It's just a general guide-line for the -- for  47 the difference in the products between coast and 12356  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  MR.  GRANT  10  THE  COURT  11  MR.  GRANT  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  GRANT  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  GRANT  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  GRANT  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  interior.  Okay.  Now, table -- figure 7, which immediately  follows 493, this is a rough map of the region; is  that right?  Very rough.  And you placed the locations of villages in your  handwriting in circles, right?  Yes.  And then you have --  Are you at page --  4 93, my lord.  Oh, yes.  All right.  There's a map immediately following it.  After 493?  Yes.  It's "Figure 7, Local Specialty Products".  Yes, I have it.  Then you have listed certain species or goods under  each of these names?  Yes.  And this is a summary which you describe in the  following pages of certain specialties of certain  villages?  Certain specialties.  It's certainly not exhaustive,  but it gives some idea of the specialties in the local  regions for which people were famous in the area.  And  these would be -- the things that they would produce  in these different villages were the things that they  would hold high when they came into the feast hall and  they would announce the territory that it came from.  Yes.  And when they were away from home, they would just  have to say the name of their village and people would  know because the degree of specificity diminishes the  farther away from home you go.  Yes.  Or the level of generality increases.  Okay.  On page 494 you refer to the Tsimshian adaawk  as a basis for part of this information?  Yes.  And then you refer in the second paragraph to Boas  and, in fact, you reiterate what Boas describes  through pages 494 and 495, and you rely in part on  Boas' ethnography?  Yes.  Yes.  Now, going to your figure 8, Doctor, after page 495,  here you have circled certain species with arrows or 12357  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 certain goods with arrows going between.  Do each of  2 these names and circles refer to different groups,  3 that is, different aboriginal groups?  4 A   Pretty well they do, yes.  5 Q   Okay.  Could you indicate for his lordship which of  6 the groups -- which of the circles would reflect the  7 goods, the trade goods, of the Gitksan?  8 A  Well, they're the two moccasin-shaped figures right in  9 the middle. The first one starts "dried salmon", and  10 the one below it "hides, pelts, moccasins, bags".  11 Q   And which one is the Wet'suwet'en?  12 A   The lower one is the Wet'suwet'en, and the upper one  13 is the Gitksan.  14 Q   Okay.  15 A  And the oolichan, just to the left of them, is the  16 lower Nass-Nishga area, and the oolichan below that is  17 the Gardiner Canal around Kitimat.  18 Q   Okay.  19 A  And then you have the Haida out offshore.  You have  20 the coastal island Tlingit up where it says "seal,  21 seal oil" up in the margin, and where the "copper" is  22 it's the copper Indians and Ayak from the top of the  23 Panhandle.  And the Chilkat blankets come from the  24 Chilkat-Tlingit people of the -- of the Chilkat and  25 Taku River region.  26 Q   Okay.  Now, the arrows indicate the trade -- back and  27 forth trade between the different groups?  28 A   Yes.  2 9 Q   And —  30 A   I didn't put any arrows in for the obsidian because it  31 flowed into many of these areas over a long long  32 period of time.  33 Q   Okay.  And —  34 A  And we don't actually know the actual routes of who it  35 went to, although there are some references by  36 informants and people I've talked to that suggest that  37 it was still being collected and passed on into  38 Wet'suwet'en and Gitksan areas 100 or 150 years ago.  Now --  Should we take a short adjournment?  Certainly, my lord.  All right.  Thank you.  43 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  Court stands adjourned for a  44 recess.  45  4 6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR AFTERNOON RECESS)  47  3 9 MR. GRANT  4 0 THE COURT  41 MR. GRANT  42 THE COURT 1235?  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein to the  best of my skill and ability.  Tanita S. French  Official Reporter 12359  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 1235?  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2 (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED AFTER A SHORT RECESS)  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  5 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant.  6 MR. GRANT:  Thank you, My Lord.  7 Q   With respect to figure eight, the -- all of the arrows  8 going in towards the oolichan and coming out from the  9 oolichan for the Nass that you referred to there, is  10 this what you were referring to His Lordship earlier  11 as --  12 A   That's what I mentioned earlier, yes.  It's also very  13 evident in the adaawks, the amount of fighting and  14 friction over that region through history has been  15 considerable.  Its been a focal point for all sorts of  16 animosities and competitions.  17 THE COURT:  Which area are you talking about?  18 THE WITNESS:  The big circle where it says "oolichan" just above  19 where it's written Skeena.  2 0    THE COURT:  Yes.  21 MR. GRANT:  22 Q   Now, after the -- on page 496 it starts after the  23 reference to figure 9, which you have already  24 described, you state that:  25  26 "Sinuous trails linked pre-contact Native  27 communties across the breadth of northwest  28 British Columbia and southeast Alaska.  29 These trails formed a conduit for trade and  30 communications between the different native  31 villages and settlements.  The trails are  32 old.  George Chismore spent a summer  33 furlough from the U.S. Army exploring the  34 trail up the Nass Valley and across to  35 Kispiox in 1870.  His observations as to the  36 age of the trail are interesting."  37  38 And you quote Chismore.  39  40 "In one place the trail leads over the top  41 of a hill denuded of soil and is worn deeply  42 into the solid granite by the feet of  43 succeeding generations.  44  45 George McDonald also states these trails  46 were very old.  47 12359  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 The Kitwancool trail was begun in  2 prehistoric times but it is impossible to  3 say when.  As a hunting trail it is  4 undoubtedly many thousands of years old, but  5 as a major trade route it probably came into  6 importance between two or three thousand  7 years ago."  8  9 And you have relied on these as well as other  10 authors.  Chismore is for your ethnohistorical  11 analysis of the time depth of trails and also as well  12 George MacDonald's analysis?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Now, I would like to refer you to page 498 with  15 respect to the trails, where it said:  16  17 "In 1870 the Nass-Kispiox trail was much  18 used, even in the summer months, long after  19 the annual oolichan run.  Chismore states:  20  21 The trail was a constant source of interest.  22 Daily we passed parties bending under their  23 burdens, or met others hurrying back to  24 seek a load.  This highway is broad and  25 clear and very old."  26  27 And this would be one of the main oolichan trails?  28 A   Yes, that's -- after the one between Kitwancool and  29 the Nass, this is probably the most used in that  30 region, the one between Kispiox and the Nass.  They  31 actually converge at the junction of the Cranberry  32 River, as you can see roughly the spot from Highway 37  33 today.  34 Q   Okay.  35  36 "This description also includes the  37 trail-side facilities for the freight  38 packers who will be carrying freight for  39 gold prospectors in the Omineca area, as  40 well as produce for local use:  41  42 Sweat-houses were built at frequent  43 intervals, where with a cup of water and a  44 few heated stones, the tired native might  45 assuage his aching limbs by a steam bath.  46 Rude huts of bark afford shelter to him who  47 needs it, and large sheds built of the same 12360  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 material mark the spots where different  2 tribes meet to trade."  3  4 Then you say:  5  6 "It is appropriate to conclude this  7 description of the grease trails with  8 Chismore's description of Native design and  9 constructed bridges, of which there were  10 several in Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  11 territories at the time of contact."  12  13 And Chismore was an eyewitness to these bridges;  14 is that right?  15 A   That's right.  16 Q  17 Chismore describes the bridge he saw and  18 crossed at the confluence of the Cranberry  19 and Nass River (which was also described by  20 Horetzky in 1872) .  The construction  21 Chismore describes is not unlike that  22 employed by the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en to  23 establish canyon-side fishing platforms.  He  24 describes the bridge he crossed on the  25 Cranberry River when he travelled the  26 Kispiox:  27 Bridges span the wider stream; one, a  28 suspension bridge crossing the Har-keen."  29 Do you know where he is referring to there?  30 A   This is -- this is -- I think this is the one at the  31 Cranberry junction to the Nass.  32 Q   Okay.  33  34 "... long ago, replacing a still older one,  35 has a clear span of 92 feet.  It is located  36 at a point where opposing cliffs form  37 natural abutments, and is thus constructed.  38 From each bank two tapering logs, parallel  39 to each other - some 10 feet apart and with  40 points elevated to an angle of 10 degrees  41 are pushed out over the stream towards each  42 other as far as their butts will serve as a  43 counterpoise.  Then two more are shoved out  44 between the first, but nearer together and  45 almost horizontal.  The ends on shore are  46 then secured by piling logs and stones upon  47 them.  Then a man crawls out to the end of 12361  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  one of the timbers, and throws a line to  another in the same position opposite.  A  light pole is hauled into place, lashed  securely and that arch completed.  The three  remaining sets of timbers are treated in the  same manner.  The upper and lower arches are  then fastened together by poles,  cross-pieces put in, footplank laid, and  handrail bound in proper position to steady  the traveller in crossing the vibrating,  swaying structure.  No bolt, nail or pin is  used from first to last.  Strips of bark and  tough, flexible roots form all the  fastenings."  THE COURT:  Where did you say Har-keen is?  THE WITNESS:  It's across the — it's on the Cranberry River  just very close to its junction with the Nass.  So  that's north of Kitwanga some ways up the road, about  half an hour drive up the road.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. GRANT:  Q   Now, with respect to this photograph, which is Exhibit  122 from the Madeline Alfred document book, can you --  you have said that the bridge is analagous to the  fishing platforms.  Can you explain that, what you are  referring to for His Lordship?  THE COURT:  I'll come down.  THE WITNESS:  This is a fishing platform, I believe, at  Moricetown Canyon, but the platform, it sticks here  and it is cantilevered and braced here behind where  the fish trap basket is.  You would have this  structure on both sides of the canyon, and they would  push out poles from either side and lash them across  and then build the superstructure.  But it was this  cantilever effect which he thought was quite -- he was  quite impressed by it, that it was same the basic  principles as bridge building in the European world of  the 19th century.  MR. GRANT:  Just a moment, My Lord.  I'll leave it, My Lord.  I  may come back to one photograph, but I will just leave  it for a moment.  Q   The next section on page 500, doctor, relates to the  exchange between the Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en.  I  would just like to quote you your opinion there, where  you state: 12362  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 "The frontier between Gitksan and  2 Wet'suwet'en has been remarkably peaceful  3 over a very long period.  In many ways this  4 testifies to the balanced nature of the  5 trade within the region.  Both peoples  6 utilize similar ecologial niches; both  7 occupy choice positions vis-a-vis coast and  8 inland trade, and while both peoples share  9 the salmon resources of the upper Skeena  10 system, their respective hunting territories  11 fan out from the mainstem rivers in opposite  12 directions.  Thus, when the people complete  13 their salmon harvest and processing, and  14 turn to their hunting grounds, the  15 possibility of conflicts developing over  16 access to land are minimized."  17  18 Now, you have described -- this is your conclusion  19 that this is a peaceful frontier between these two  20 peoples?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And is there any evidence in the oral histories or any  23 other references that --  24 A  Well, there is surprisingly little discussion in the  25 Kungax songs of the Wet'suwet'en or the adaawk of the  26 Gitksan of animosities between the two peoples.  27 Q   Uh-huh.  On page 502 you state:  28  29 "Transactions and agreements between the two  30 people are often conducted by consulting  31 with counterparts of one's own clan."  32  33 A   I gave the example of the arrangement made at the time  34 of the slide on the Bulkley River, which effectively  35 blocked the salmon from getting up to Moricetown, and  36 it was an interclan arrangement.  The Wet'suwet'en  37 delegated two chiefs to speak on their behalf, one of  38 them was a Frog, one of them was a Wolf, and they went  39 to speak to the Frog and Wolf chiefs of Gitanmaax who  40 they had had interaction with through the years, and  41 worked out an agreement for the use of Hagwilget.  42 Q   Did you also -- you referred earlier in your evidence  43 to the example of Daniel Skawil and Knedebeas.  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   Is that another example?  46 A   Cooperation within the same clan, yes, between the two  47 nations. 12363  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   Okay.  You then say that:  2  3 "Cultural difference provide for a certain  4 amount of goods exchange between the two  5 peoples."  6  7 My Lord, this is on page 502 as well.  And there  8 do you -- you refer to an example of the eel described  9 by Art Matthews in his evidence.  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Then you go on on the next page to indicate that:  12  13 "Probably the greatest bone of contention in  14 terms of the exchange of goods between the  15 two peoples, however, has been access to the  16 oolichan fishery on the Nass.  While the  17 Wet'suwet'en obtained some grease from  18 Kitimat and Kemano, and from Kimsquit on  19 Dean Channel, a far greater volume was to be  20 had on the Nass, or if need be, from the  21 neighbouring Gitksan, who obtained hides and  22 furs in exchange for oolichan grease which  23 they themselves obtained on the Nass or at  24 Kitimat."  25  26 Then you state:  27  28 "The Wet'suwet'en appear to have been on  29 foreign territory when they visited the  30 Nass.  Unlike the Gitksan, the Wet'suwet'en  31 had only formal trading relations with the  32 Nishga.  Their Nass relations were not  33 generally reinforced by kinship and marriage  34 ties the way that Gitksan-Nishga relations  35 tended to be.  Consequently, visits to the  36 coast were stressful, potentially dangerous  37 undertakings, as recounted by Jenness and by  38 Johnny David in his Commission Evidence."  39  40 A   This is a common feature of -- in areas where there is  41 a transition between major ecological zones.  The  42 Huron and the Iroquois had the same attitude towards  43 their surrounding people.  They wanted to control the  44 access to the lucrative furs, both before and after  45 contact.  They traded them down to the southern  46 states, and when the first Europeans came in they  47 fought tooth and nail against the Europeans going any 12364  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 further, because they had established an intermediary  2 role and wanted to, of course, maintain that trading  3 edge.  And there was a certain degree of muted  4 middlemanship held, I think, by the Gitksan in  5 relation to the trade of the Wet'suwet'en and the  6 produce of the eastern Carrier and the Sekani people.  7 Q   The next section is contact and proto-contact trading  8 monopolies.  Now, My Lord, if I just could refer you  9 at the bottom of page 504, just for your reference,  10 where it says in that Frog Raven adaawk.  Number 47 is  11 Exhibit 896-69, green book, and number 79 is Exhibit  12 896-84.  13 THE COURT:  Thank you.  14 MR. GRANT:  And one other correction, My Lord.  The fourth line  15 on page 505 should read "valid" instead of a-l-i-d.  16 THE COURT:  Thank you.  17 MR. GRANT:  And then I would refer you for reference to page  18 505, that second paragraph, My Lord, but I am not  19 going to read it.  You may wish to note it.  2 0 THE COURT: All right.  21 MR. GRANT:  22 Q   In this section you -- and also, I'm sorry, My Lord,  23 page 556, that entire page.  24 In this section you deal with the -- what you have  25 already described about the coastal chiefs and the  26 power potlatches which you have already given evidence  27 of; is that right?  28 A   Yes.  And the expansion of aggressive trading.  29 Q   In the coast?  30 A   From the coast toward the interior.  31 Q   Okay.  Can you turn to page 507, please.  You state  32 that:  33  34 "As George MacDonald has argued, it appears  35 that the trade in European metal goods along  36 the grease trails preceded the European  37 explorers on the Northwest Coast by at least  38 a century."  39  40 And that is your opinion as well, is it?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And then you state that:  43  44 "It is my opinion"  45  46 Then you go on to make a reference that there will  47 be further proto-contact tempo of trade picked up 12365  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  momentum from eastern and southern influences as well,  and that other writers are doing work on that field  now; is that right?  A   This is a bit of a general sweeping statement.  There  is a certain amount of investigation going on now by  Leyland Donald, who is a professor of anthropology in  Victoria and some of his associates, onto the roots of  the slave -- trading in slaves and captives, and the  effects of the -- or repercussions of the Spanish  being in Central America and California, and the early  influence of the fur trade and in the American west,  but there is not enough material being compiled to  reach any sort of hypothesis even.  Q   There is not a hypothesis?  A   No.  Q   My Lord, I just ask if you could note that I asked Dr.  Daly that question, that that second part of that  first paragraph really shouldn't be regarded in terms  of the report, as it's something that is not  established in the field.  He is just commenting on  research that's being done in an ongoing way.  THE COURT:  Do you agree with that?  THE WITNESS:  I agree, yes.  I was a bit too enthusiastic for  the available facts.  All right.  Thank you.  That passage starts "It is my opinion".  Yes.  You don't have to say anything more about it.  It's  your opinion that there is a possibility of finding  further evidence.  This would be consistent with what  you found on the east coast?  Yes.  Oh, it certainly pertains to the northern  snowball effect of the fur trade from east to west.  Q   Yes.  A   That had an effect from east to west.  Q   Right.  A   Just as the coastal trade had an effect from the west  towards the east.  Q   Right.  A   But there is not enough data available for the effects  coming up from the south and the southwest.  Q   Okay.  Now, you state at the bottom of page 507:  "From the adaawk which relate events on the  Tsimshian and Nishga coastal areas, we can  deduce that when European trade began in the  region it meshed with an indigenous process  MR.  THE COURT  MR. FREY:  GRANT  Q  A 12366  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  Q  37  38  39  40  A  41  THE COURT  42  MR. GRANT  43  THE COURT  44  MR. GRANT  45  Q  46  47  of exchange."  And that is your opinion?  Yes.  And you rely, as well as on the other sources, you  rely on Eric Wolf, who comments on this in --  He doesn't just comment on it.  He has assessed all of  the -- or a large body of the work that's been done in  this region.  And I compared what he had done here  with what he did on the fur trade in the Great Lakes,  from my knowledge of that region, and it's pretty  thorough work that he's done, and its certainly been  well received in the anthropological journals, that  book of his.  Can you turn to 509. You state there -- this is the  quote at the very bottom, My Lord, and it's the last  part of that quote of Professor Wolf's:  "The Tsimshian under Chief Legaic at the  Hudson Bay Company's Fort Simpson engrossed  the trade on the upper Skeena with the  Gitksan, who in turn controlled the trade  with the Sekani."  Now, the quote is the Sekani, but if that --  It more accurately would be with the Athabaskan  people.  Okay.  So if that term was changed to trade with the  Athabaskans, would that be your opinion?  Yes.  Okay.  Legaix wasn't the only trader chief, but he was  certainly the predominant one.  There were other very  powerful chiefs and rivals of his, both among the  Tsimshian and the Nishga and the Tlingit.  Now, on pages 510, 511 and 512 you explain this power  potlatching feature that occurred at the coast that  you have already described to His Lordship; is that  right?  Yes.  I'm sorry, where did you say?  Pages 510 through to 512, My Lord.  Yes.  And on page 513 you refer to "Legyeex, Shakes and  Haimas", and this is part of the description that you  had already described to His Lordship in evidence? 12367  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And it sets out your opinions.  On page 516 you state  3 halfway down, My Lord, start at the beginning, you  4 state:  5  6 "In my opinion the new reliance upon the fur  7 trade for economic well-being and political  8 strength occurred mainly on the coast among  9 those chiefs with access to the European  10 markets.  Nonetheless, this commoditization  11 no doubt began to exert a certain pressure  12 on the remainder of the region to bend to  13 the will of the market possibilities.  Be  14 this as it may, the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  15 area was peripheral to competitive feasting  16 in the nineteenth century, particularly in  17 the eastern portion of the region.  18 Undoubtedly the mount of trading increased,  19 but the feasting relations did not.  In  20 accord with the foregoing argument this  21 situation prevailed because the upper Skeena  22 area did not become a central area of  23 pre-settlement European trade which brought  24 a number of chiefs into competition and  25 interaction who generally did not interact  26 with one another."  27  28 Is that your opinion?  29 A   Yes.  And I would back up the early statement by  30 saying that there was, I think, an indicator that  31 these market relations to some extent were moving into  32 the region and being played out through conventional  33 or customary reciprocal relations between distant  34 chiefs through the development or spread of these  35 dancing societies, the winter dancing societies I  36 mentioned before.  They were a form of ceremonialized  37 competition, and it was -- there was some evidence of  38 it among the Wet'suwet'en and among the Gitksan in  39 that period of time, but it certainly wasn't developed  40 the way it was in the middle of the coast and in the  41 south coast.  42 Q   Can I just refer you to page 520.  You state at the  43 bottom there:  44  45 "Be that as it may, the Gitksan and  46 Wet'suwet'en territories were not on the  47 front line of European trade, although they 1236?  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 were by no means out of touch with this  2 trade.  However much the Gitksan and  3 Wet'suwet'en have engaged in the commodity  4 market by force of circumstance, they still  5 use the fruits of their labour - today,  6 measured in dollars - as the gifts and  7 payments they are bound to make to fulfill  8 their obligations in the feast hall, to pay  9 for their continuing ownership of territory,  10 whose control and use has been the basis for  11 regional barter and giftgiving for  12 millennia."  13  14 Is that your opinion?  15 A   Yes, that's my opinion.  16 Q   And with respect to the reference to millennia, you  17 are relying on the oral histories as well as the  18 archaeological records?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   Now, My Lord, just -- I -- that last section I went  21 over quickly, not because I don't think that it's  22 relevant or important, but because Dr. Daly this  23 morning actually gave you a fairly detailed  24 description.  I didn't think there was any need to  25 repeat it.  2 6    THE COURT:  Well, it's here.  27 MR. GRANT:  And it's there for you.  I would now ask — I would  28 be prepared now to adjourn, as I indicated it would --  29 I can refocus on the last chapter.  30 THE COURT:  Madam Reporter was hoping you would stay 'til 4 or  31 4:30.  All right.  Well then, we can finish in an hour  32 on Monday morning?  33 MR. GRANT:  Yes, given that you have given me the day to review  34 this.  35 THE COURT: Yes.  All right.  9 o'clock in the morning.  Have a  36 pleasant weekend then.  37 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  3 8 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:30 P.M.)  39  40 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO BE  41 A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE  42 PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE BEST OF MY  43 SKILL AND ABILITY.  44  4 5 LORI OXLEY  4 6 OFFICIAL REPORTER  47 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.

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