"4caecb68-d3b2-43eb-b58f-953c3cbc4bcc"@en . "CONTENTdm"@en . "Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts"@en . "British Columbia. Supreme Court"@en . "2013"@en . "1989-02-25"@en . "In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, between: Delgamuukw, also known as Albert Tait, suing on his own behalf and on behalf of all the members of the House of Delgamuukw, and others, plaintiffs, and Her Majesty the Queen in right of the Province of British Columbia and the Attorney General of Canada, defendants: proceedings at trial."@en . ""@en . "https://open.library.ubc.ca/collections/delgamuukw/items/1.0019651/source.json"@en . "application/pdf"@en . " 1226? R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 FEBRUARY 25, 198 9 3 VANCOUVER, B.C 4 5 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. 6 THE COURT: In case we forget later in the day, counsel will be 7 reminded, of course, that I can't sit Monday morning, 8 but we will sit 2:00 o'clock Monday afternoon. 9 THE REGISTRAR: In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, 10 Vancouver, this Saturday, February 25, 1989, calling 11 Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty The Queen at bar. I 12 caution the witness you are still under oath. 13 MR. GRANT: 14 Q Doctor, could you turn to page 416 of your report 15 please. 16 THE COURT: I'm sorry, page? 17 MR. GRANT: 416, My Lord. 18 Q I just want to refer you at the bottom of that page, 19 doctor, where you state that: 20 21 \"In the past, most Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en 22 produced goods to be stored for future use 23 in local consumption and for exchange. 24 Today, in their selective participation in 25 the cash economy, many of the people engage 26 in economic activities which are still 27 motivated by desires to get through the 28 present season and prepare for the next. 29 Today, as in the past, this includes always 30 having something on hand with which to pay 31 sudden debts engendered by a death in the 32 family or for trade in needed goods. This 33 emphasis upon producing for local needs, 34 rather than for capital accumulation has 35 carried through the whole era of 36 cash-cropping of furbearing animals.\" 37 38 Now, with respect with that last comment, you then 39 go on to refer to David Blackwater as an example. Can 4 0 you expand on why you state that the emphasis upon 41 producing for local needs rather than capital 42 accumulation has carried through the whole era of 43 cash-cropping in furbearing animals? 44 A Well, the very morality of the society, as annunciated 45 by the elders that I have talked to, reflects this 46 insofar as the -- they reiterate again and again how 47 important it is to have essential subsistence goods 12269 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 and funds on hand to guard against the rainy day and the crises that come up in the course of life from time to time, especially on the occasions of sudden death. And informants have told me that people -- the best ones, those who are most reliable in terms of having the things that are -- being a source of necessities are often those who are not out working in the outside world, but are closest to the land and in the village, and the old people are the sources of funds. A whole lifetime of savings is instilled into people. So the older you get, the more you are looked to as a resource person, even though you may have nothing much more than a pension cheque, but you are able to mobilize both funds and foodstuffs and access to gifts which are necessary for these feasting rounds in a way that -- Can I refer you to page 418 now. You go on to say, and this is a question of accumulation of prestige, then you say: \"Among the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en however ...\" THE COURT: MR. GRANT: Q At the top of the page, My Lord. Yes. A \"The motivation as expressed in the values in the people, is less one of seeking prestige through wealth accumulation than it is of building up or maintaining the reputation of the House group and the chiefly names, quietly, according to the laws of the culture, buttressed by one's kinship group so as to avoid the focus of the public eye upon the actions of the individual. In Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en cultures, to be talked about is not a sign of honour but rather of shame.\" Can you explain why -- the basis for that conclusion and how that fits in with your understanding of tribal societies -- of kinship societies? Well, in all societies there is a blending of an ethic of equality and an effort to compete and attain a certain degree of gain over and above the level of 12270 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 possessions and the level of wealth and the level of 2 standing, if you like, of the social position of your 3 fellows, and there are various mechanisms and 4 combinations for encouraging one facet or the other. 5 Both trends occur in all societies. And in tribal -- 6 and in band societies, of course, there is -- there is 7 always competition over resources, but the social 8 mechanisms that put a ceiling on the competition are 9 quite pronounced, such that anyone who persistently 10 looks like a leader, a big leader, is cut down to size 11 in various ways, or their power is empheral, because 12 the economic base, the access to the resources is such 13 that there is a limit to the amount of accumulation 14 that is possible to sustain that leadership, and then 15 there is a moral boostering to bring the person back 16 down to size. 17 Q Now, on the bottom of that page you state: 18 19 \"The accumulation of goods is an integral 20 part of subsistence strategy based on 21 harvesting diverse resources.\" 22 23 That is a cross-cultural comment, is it, that 24 first statement, or is it specific at that point to 25 the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en? 26 A I would say here it's specific to the Gitksan and 27 Wet'suwet'en, because there are ways and means of 28 gaining access to resources in the diverse economy 29 other than through accumulation, but that is usually 30 by having a very complex network of kinship ties to 31 other regions, other ecological zones, so that you can 32 go there and use those resources by your kinship ties. 33 And one example that comes to mind are the Bedouin or 34 Cyrenaica, which is the work that was done by Emrys 35 Peters 25 years ago in the deserts of Libya. It's a 36 fascinating account of the kinship ties which people 37 consciously make to different ecological regions in 38 the desert. It's a way of having a safety net against 39 an ecological disaster in one area. 40 Q Okay. You go on to say that: 41 42 \"The Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en territories 43 have a climate, which unlike most of the 44 Northwest Coast culture area, is propitious 45 for the reliable drying of foodstuffs 46 through the bountiful summer months.\" 47 12271 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 And there you are relying on, in part, Sybille 2 Haeussler's work and Rod Shelton's work? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Assuming that their work is correct? 5 A And also my general familiarity -- as far back as when 6 I was fishing up and down the coast, the coastal 7 people always talked about how they liked the smoked 8 salmon from inland, which I couldn't quite understand 9 why there was any difference, but they said it smokes 10 better, it is less oily, and they had a desire for the 11 inland salmon, so there was a -- 12 Q Is there ethnographic work with the Alaskans which 13 refers to the problems of drying or preserving salmon? 14 A I cited one reference in this work by Scott and 15 Heller, who were doing an assessment of native diets 16 along the coast of Alaska, both the Indian and the 17 Inuit and Alouette populations, and they found that 18 there was a significant spoilage of the fish that was 19 smoked along the coast. They didn't draw any 20 conclusions about the implications for this for trade. 21 It was nothing to do with what they were working on, 22 but it impressed me. 23 Q That's the \u00E2\u0080\u0094 24 A They were speaking of how to increase or develop 25 indigenous methods of feeding people, and balancing 26 out the diet, due to the rather lamentable diet that 27 the people were existing on in the sixties. 28 Q Okay. That was a work called the \"Alaska Dietary 29 Survey of 1956 to '61\" done for the Department of -- 30 the U.S. Department of Health Education and Welfare? 31 A Uh-huh. 32 Q Now, I would like to turn you to page 419. First of 33 all at the top there are -- four lines down you said: 34 35 \"Today some game and much salmon 36 continue to be preserved in the traditional 37 manner.\" 38 39 And this is the -- you have already described you 40 have observed this yourself at the fishing camps? 41 A Yes. 42 Q Now, going to the next paragraph: 43 44 \"While the pre-contact Gitksan and 45 Wet'suwet'en did emphasize storage, as well 46 as the direction of economic life by the 47 chiefs and a system of social ranking, all 12272 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 of these features operated within the limits 2 imposed by a subsistence-oriented kinship 3 economy.\" 4 5 Now, I don't want you -- you don't have to repeat 6 any evidence you have given, but you can refer back to 7 it if you have to, but what I would like you to 8 explain for His Lordship is what do you mean by the 9 limits imposed by a subsistence-oriented kinship 10 economy? 11 A Of the limits most obviously are the amount of 12 resources available in their own territory, and 13 your -- the degree of readily accessible resources -- 14 resources in other people's territories. 15 Q Uh-huh. 16 A So in reference to the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en area, 17 transportation was rather a difficulty. Things had to 18 be carried on people's backs as far as being able to 19 accumulate large amounts of valued goods from other 20 places. And this was quite a different situation on 21 the coast, where they had large cedar canoes that 22 travelled up and down the coast and engaged in 23 considerable accumulation and exchange of values from 24 different ecological regions along the coast all the 25 way down to California. 26 Q Okay. Now, I would like to go to 419 to 420. You 27 say: 28 29 \"With a good stock of produce stored for 30 winter, the House had a firm foundation for 31 its social and political affairs, and for 32 the fulfillment of its role in the credit 33 and debt relations that still exist between 34 families and Houses.\" 35 36 And that's one of your conclusions, your opinion, 37 is that right? 38 A Between families and Houses. 39 Q Between families and Houses. 40 41 \"In this way, the storage of goods 42 underwrote the authority of the chief. The 43 chiefly authority extended only to the 44 limits of House affairs, although on 45 occasion, when the situation so demanded, a 46 respected House chief could be chosen by a 47 whole community - especially in the western 12273 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 villages - as a spokesperson or 2 representative in dealings with external, 3 non-Gitksan, non-Wet'suwet'en peoples. When 4 such occasions have been completed, the 5 chief in question is no longer given 6 authority to speak on behalf of anyone 7 beyond his or her local kinship ties.\" 8 9 Now, I would like you to explain that conclusion 10 and how you have come to it. 11 A Another feature of tribal societies with -- is that -- 12 I'm sorry. Normally the authority that people -- that 13 chiefs are given is limited to their own kinship 14 grouping, but on special occasions -- I'm sorry, my 15 head is not together this morning. 16 Q Let me rephrase the question to assist you, doctor. 17 You state that -- and here you are talking about the 18 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en, that chiefly authority 19 extended only to the limits of House affairs. 20 Now, here are you referring to the Gitksan and the 21 Wet'suwet'en when you make that statement? 22 A Certainly to the Gitksan. The situation is slightly 23 different with the Wet'suwet'en. 24 Q Can you explain that difference. 25 A The Wet'suwet'en are more in the habit and custom of 26 putting forward or -- if the issue is something that 27 involves all of them, they immediately, all their high 28 chiefs come together and discuss the issue and 29 delegate someone to be their spokesperson in 30 negotiations with outsiders, and I have seen this many 31 times in the course of community meetings and 32 deliberations in relation to this court action. The 33 Wet'suwet'en get together right away and delegate 34 someone to speak on that, whatever the issue is, and 35 there is no issue, that's it. 36 Well, with the Gitksan the situation is much more 37 one chief speaks on behalf of his House, or perhaps a 38 group of closely related Houses, two or three other 39 Houses, and you -- they don't deem to speak on behalf 40 of all of the nations. But on occasion they will set 41 up a -- they will have an agreement that this sort of 42 arrangement be done as well. And in Kitwancool they 43 have a president, and this position has been in 44 existence for quite a long time. 45 My understanding is, talking to some of the 46 elders, particularly Solomon Marsden and Peter 47 Williams himself, who is the president, that this 12274 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 agreement was taken as a way of dealing with the 2 non-native outside world in an expeditious way, and in 3 a way that the white people would understand as well, 4 that we have our president, our representative, but 5 it's for very specific functions. 6 Q Okay. That -- you are aware of the Duff or the 7 histories, territories and laws of Kitwancool? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And that refers to the role of the president in 10 Kitwancool? 11 A Yes, it does. 12 Q Now, as an anthropologist can you explain, in terms of 13 the structures you have described in the last four or 14 five days, can you explain how this concept of each 15 chief speaks for his own House generally in the 16 Gitksan situation, how that fits into the society and 17 to similar societies? 18 A It's very similar -- I think I mentioned before the 19 whole case of Handsome Lake and other leaders among 20 the Iroquois, they would throw up a leader who would 21 speak on behalf of the whole tribe or in that case the 22 confederacy, but only for very specific purposes and 23 reasons. And it was the same situation in times of 24 war, a -- one chief, usually the wronged chief, if war 25 was usually perceived from both sides as a 26 retaliation, redressing a dishonourable situation, 27 whoever mounted a raid would be generally the 28 commander, and there would be a highly -- a high 29 devolution of authority, and this was the situation in 30 the Kweese raids on the Kitimat people, the Haisla. 31 Q The Kweese being a Wet'suwet'en chief? 32 A Wet'suwet'en chief, yes. 33 Q Just to be clear, you said the wronged, w-r-o-n-g-e-d, 34 would be the one selected? 35 A Yes. 36 Q Now, then you go on to say that when such occasion 37 have been completed, the chief in question is no 38 longer given authority to speak on behalf of anyone 39 beyond his or her local kinship ties? 40 A Yes. 41 Q Why do you say that? Do you have any examples that 42 show that? 43 A It's a feature of the social structure, and that's 44 related to the amount of accumulative -- the 45 possibility of accumulating wealth and redeploying it 4 6 to build up your name and your own personal 47 entrepreneurial standing and abilities. It's a 12275 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 A 18 Q 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 A 28 THE COURT 29 30 31 32 33 MR. GRANT 34 THE COURT 35 MR. GRANT 36 THE COURT 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 MR. GRANT 44 45 THE COURT 46 47 MR. GRANT feature of tribal and band societies, and it's certainly played out in the local politics on the reserves right across the country. Outsiders see it as impossible factualism, but it's a working out of this decentralized family groupings in various kinship combinations, where no one leader will enjoy the concerted support of the community for a very long period of time. Now, I would like to give you a hypothetical, doctor, and ask if that fits in. Evidence before the court has demonstrated that Neil Sterritt, that's Neil John Sterritt, was president of the Tribal Council for a period of time when this action was commenced, and he gave evidence that he was authorized to speak in public on behalf of the chiefs as the president of the Tribal Council. Yes. Evidence also indicates that when he was ordered by this court to be examined for discovery on behalf of all of the chiefs, that he was told by a number of the chiefs not to describe their adaawk or histories of their Houses when he gave his discovery. Now, that is -- given that sequence of facts, does that -- how would that scenario fit into what you have just described, in terms of the kinship society and the anthropological analysis? I think that's very consistent. But isn't it self serving? It happened long after the action started. How can it be relied upon now to prove an anthropological proposition? People -- I am not suggesting that happened here, but people could go around setting up scenarios and proving them at trial. Well \u00E2\u0080\u0094 -- a policy consideration would exclude this. Just a moment, My Lord. The issue -- Especially when you have an event that took place in a structure totally foreign to what the author is describing. I happen to assume that Mr. Sterritt was told that he had to answer all proper questions and deliberate decisions made to define the rules of the forum that was chosen, and surely that can't be of any assistance in buttressing an anthropological opinion. Well, I won't -- I was not tendering it to buttress an anthropological opinion, My Lord. You said it's a perfect example of what you are talking about. Well, I was asking him to comment on that scenario 12276 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. GRANT: Q in terms of the system itself. THE COURT: Well, I couldn't put any weight on it, because I just am quite uncertain what is going on there, and I would rather not get into it. I found the whole thing offensive, but that's my culture. That's the culture they chose to enact this little drama in, and I just don't think it has any demonstrative value. MR. GRANT: Just a moment. In light of \u00E2\u0080\u0094 I don't think I have to go further than that. THE COURT: I'm sure you don't. I wish you hadn't gone this far. I would like to go to the next section -- I should say page 421, doctor, \"Accumulation, Hierarchy and Political Power\". I would like to refer you to the bottom of page 421 where you state, and I will quote: \"The Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en society, taken as a whole social phenomenon composed of two linguistic and historical traditions, is a composite, or a blend of both the decentralized and egalitarian social values of the inland Athapaskan lifestyle and the more centralized hierarchical, and stratified social values of the north coast.\" Now, can you explain that conclusion? A Well, just like the -- I explained the overlay of the biogeoclimatic zones and the climatic regions of continental climatic regions. It seems to me in the region where the Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en live, you have a blending of two distinct cultural groupings, and it's fascinating from an anthropological point of view, because you have got features of both of them from the coast, the coastal features and the inland features meshing right there in that mountainous region between the coast and the interior plateau. And there is a gradation of coastedness and interiorness that meets in that general region. Q You go on to state that: \"The archaeological record, and the peoples' oral histories indicate that the inland culture moved out, south and west toward the coast after the last deglaciation.\" 12277 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 And do you adopt, based on the archaeological 3 record and oral history, do you adopt that as your 4 opinion? 5 MR. WILLMS: I object, My Lord. That is an opinion that we have 6 already heard from a ethnoarchaeologist about. We 7 have got somebody who has tied ethnology and 8 archaeology together. She's given evidence. This is 9 an anthropologist, and if he can tie the ethnology 10 together and date it somehow, then my friend can lay 11 the foundation for that and ask the opinion. But 12 we've already had the archaeologist here, and she has 13 explained the archaeology and ethnology, and we don't 14 need this witness to do it. He is not qualified. 15 THE COURT: But this isn't what she said. 16 MR. WILLMS: No, it isn't, My Lord. That's exactly the point. 17 And she is the archaeologist, he isn't. 18 MR. GRANT: Well, first of all my friend \u00E2\u0080\u0094 as I understand, my 19 friend made strong objection to the qualification of 20 the archaeologist as an ethnoarchaeologist. If my 21 friend is withdrawing that objection now, then maybe 22 we can change things, but I understand that there is 23 at large a matter that you are ultimately going to 24 rule on, and you decided to hear the evidence, and at 25 the end of the day that argument will be made. So I 26 think that my friend cannot say because one person has 27 said it that another person can't. 28 Secondly, I was just going to lead or I was going 29 to \u00E2\u0080\u0094 30 THE COURT: Well, can you not put it on the basis that this is 31 an assumption that Dr. Daly has made? I assume that's 32 what it is. 33 MR. GRANT: Well, I don't think it is. I think that it may \u00E2\u0080\u0094 34 the sentence may not be framed in a clear way. I 35 think in part it is and in part it isn't, and I'll 36 break that apart, my Lord. 37 Q You assume that the archaeological record which you 38 referred to is accurate? 3 9 A I do. 40 MR. WILLMS: Let's hear what that is then. 41 THE COURT: I don't know what the \u00E2\u0080\u0094 42 MR. GRANT: I am going to come to that, My Lord, if Mr. Willms 43 would give me a moment. I am coming right to it. 44 Q And what is -- what are the sources of that 45 archaeological record that you are referring to? 46 A Well, the overview by Charles Borden is the thing that 47 comes first and foremost to mind. 1227? R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 Q Yes. And that's cited -- that's one of the 2 authorities that you cited? 3 A And Fladmark's overview as well on the prehistory of 4 British Columbia. 5 Q Yes. Now \u00E2\u0080\u0094 6 A The rest of the archaeological sources I looked at 7 were more specific about the actual sites and 8 locations that the specific people had been 9 investigating. 10 Q Now, you state, for example, you refer in that 11 paragraph just -- and I am going to come back to that 12 statement, but you refer to MacDonald and Inglis, and 13 you state that: 14 15 \"MacDonald and Inglis discuss this 16 historical and cultural spread of coastal 17 influences inland over the last 3,000 years. 18 Focusing upon the development of the coastal 19 culture of the Tsimshian, they tend not to 20 address the question of the earlier 21 settlements inland, and the subsequent 22 coastward dispersals, as described in the 23 adaawk of the region and attested to by the 24 archaeological record of continuous 25 habitation for millennia at sites such as 26 Hagwilget and Moricetown ...\" 27 28 Now, stopping there. You are stating that 29 MacDonald and Inglis do not in this analysis of the 30 coastal influences moving inland, do not address the 31 question of earlier settlements inland in their -- 32 A No, they don't. They certainly -- they both 33 acknowledge that the people claim they came from 34 Temlaxham-Dizkle area, somewhere around the junction 35 of the rivers. 36 Q Skeena and Bulkley Rivers? 37 A And the people that George MacDonald was -- whose 38 cultures he was excavating and the Prince Rupert 39 harbour area. That's the assumption, because all the 40 living culture of the Coast Tsimshian, they say that 41 they came from Temlaxham. But his main area of 42 investigation and analysis has been following the -- I 43 suppose it's a common feature of most researchers. 44 You work from what you know best, the area you have 45 been working, and then look for its outward influences 46 on the rest of the world. So he has been more 47 interested in looking at the features of the coast, 12279 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 which are common to interior areas from the 2 perspective that of a diffusion of the coast to the 3 interior, which I think certainly has occurred, but 4 from the oral narratives -- 5 Q These are the ones that you have read? 6 A Yes. There was very likely a prior movement out from 7 the interior to the coast, and this is certainly the 8 findings of Charles Borden, after a full lifetime of 9 archaeological investigation in British Columbia. He 10 wrote this publication shortly before he died. 11 THE COURT: Well then, that's the assumption that you have 12 made -- 13 THE WITNESS: Well, in anthropological terms I would call it an 14 assumption, but I believe that assumption means 15 something different in this context. 16 THE COURT: I'm sure -- I'm not sure where the problem is, Mr. 17 Grant. 18 MR. GRANT: I want to go now \u00E2\u0080\u0094 19 Q You state that the inland culture moved out south and 20 west toward the coast after the last deglaciation. 21 Have you based that statement on your reading of the 22 oral history and -- such as these adaawk of Barbeau 23 and Beynon? 24 THE COURT: I thought you said you had reached that on the basis 25 of the overviews of Borden and Fladmark. 26 THE WITNESS: Yes, and in addition to the whole body of the 27 adaawks and the feelings of some of the comments by 28 Barbeau himself in the body of his work, lead one to 29 this conclusion as well. 3 0 MR. GRANT: 31 Q You have reviewed the \"Men of Medeek\", which you say 32 is a fairly extensive adaawk description you described 33 a few days ago? 34 A Yes. 35 Q Do you rely on that as well as the basis for this 36 opinion? Does that reflect that? 37 A Oh, it gives a very detailed account of where this 38 chiefly group went from village to village down the 39 Skeena River after leaving the area of Temlaxham and 40 the ecological problems they had. They first of all 41 would be taken in as guests by the local chiefs of 42 their same clan, the Fireweed Clan, but they didn't -- 43 the resources couldn't stand the pressure over time, 44 and they would be asked to leave, or there would be a 45 fight that would break out and they would have a 46 battle and then leave, until they found a piece of 47 land which was unoccupied. 12280 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 Q 2 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 7 Q 8 9 10 11 A 12 Q 13 14 15 16 A 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q 23 24 25 26 A 27 Q 28 THE COURT 29 30 31 MR. GRANT 32 Q 33 34 A 35 36 Q 37 A 38 39 40 Q 41 A 42 43 44 45 46 47 Well, just to be clear, do you rely on that particular adaawk, detailed adaawk for this opinion? Yes. Okay. I am sorry, I have relied on a number of things, but \u00E2\u0080\u0094 Okay. Well, you have relied on the adaawk, you have relied on Fladmark and Borden, and that's an assumption that you made that they are accurate in their reports? Yes. But you have relied on your own review of adaawk and including the \"Men of Medeek\". Is there anything else that you have relied on in forming this opinion yourself? Well, the views of the people in the community. They are very clear about the movement -- the movement from the interior, and in some cases some of their oral narratives speak of coming out under the ice through the glaciers, coming down the Stikene River and onto the coast. I just want to refer you to this. I am not going -- I am going to tab 2 of this document book. Is that the Medeek adaawk that you have referred to, or the typed script of Medeek adaawk? Yes, it is . Okay. : Now, I don't know if you've already told me, Mr. Grant, but if you have you can remind me. Of what is this the adaawk? Medeek is what, a House? This is an adaawk of one House group; is that right doctor? Yes, Medeek refers to the main crest of that House group. And which House is that? It is the House of -- he explained it right at the beginning. He says \"Neas-D-Hok is my name\", and he says \"It's the adaawk of Neas-Hiwas.\" Of Kitselas? Of Kitselas, yes. They ended up, after -- he recounts here, they began their existence as a House in Temlaxham, and as happens in many of the adaawks, you get the impression that these are the only people really in existence. He said they were the chief of the whole of Temlaxham, but that's the general view, because everyone speaks from the position of their own 12281 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 Clan and their own House, because they don't have the 2 authority in the community to speak for the whole 3 nation. 4 THE COURT: All right. Is it Niist, N-i-i-s-t? 5 MR. GRANT: If you look at Roman numeral IX, My Lord, the 6 prologue, it says \"Neas-D-Hok\", and there it's 7 N-e-s-s - D - H-o-k. 8 THE COURT: I'm sorry, N-e \u00E2\u0080\u0094 9 MR. GRANT: s-s- - D - H-o-k. 10 11 \" ...is my name and I am the head chief of 12 the Grizzly Bear people of Kitselas. I have 13 power on both sides of the big canyon.\" 14 15 And then the House is referred to in the second 16 paragraph where he says: 17 18 \"When I was a boy my grandfather who was 19 Neas-Hiwas\", 20 21 THE COURT: How do you spell Neas? 22 MR. GRANT: N-e-a-s, and H-i-w-a-s. And I'm sorry, where I say 23 said Neas-D-Hok, it should be N-e-a-s not N-e-s-s. 24 25 \"And he taught me the history of Medeek.\" 26 27 Q So would it be correct to say that this adaawk is an 28 adaawk that describes the migration of this House 29 group whose origins are Temlaxham, that is place of 30 origin is the same place as the Gitksan? Is that how 31 it is described? 32 A That's correct. 33 Q And that this House group, after long migrations, 34 ended at Kitselas? 35 A Yes. 36 MR. GRANT: Okay. My Lord, I understand that this has been 37 referred to on many occasions, and -- 38 THE COURT: Well, its been referred to all over the place, but 39 its never been -- 40 MR. GRANT: Its never been tendered as an exhibit. 41 THE COURT: No, and its never been considered from the point of 42 view admissibility. 43 MR. GRANT: Well, I would ask that this document be marked as an 44 exhibit, as it's one of the documents in the same 45 range as -- I will -- I think ultimately we will be in 46 a position -- ultimately at some stage we would argue 47 that it would be an adaawk that would come within the 12282 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 framework of your ruling, but I don't think it's 2 necessary to make that argument now. It can go in an 3 adaawk relied upon by Dr. Daly. 4 THE COURT: Well, it can go in as a source of research or item 5 of research. 6 MR. GRANT: Yes, I appreciate that, yes, because of your ruling 7 on adaawk. I appreciate that, My Lord. 8 THE COURT: Next you exhibit number is 898, and is that at Tab 9 2? 10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. 11 12 (EXHIBIT NO. 898 - TAB 2 - WITNESS BOOK 13 III - MEDEEK ADAAWK -RESEARCH SOURCE OF DR. 14 DALY) 15 16 MR. WILLMS: My Lord, one thing that should be noted, there 17 appears to be handwriting throughout this. It looks 18 like it's Neil Sterritt's copy from the first page, 19 but there is handwriting in there, which I am sure 20 isn't part of whatever this is. 21 THE COURT: No. All right. I shall disabuse my mind of 22 whatever it says. 2 3 MR. GRANT: Yes. 24 Q That -- from your knowledge is any of the handwriting, 25 was it on the original or -- 26 A It was on the copy I saw in the Tribal Council 27 library. 28 MR. GRANT: Okay. I concede that it \u00E2\u0080\u0094 My Lord, I don't think 29 any of the handwriting is corrections. I think the 30 only thing would be if there is some typographical 31 correction. I don't think there is though. 32 THE WITNESS: I don't think there is at all. 33 MR. GRANT: So the handwriting should be disregarded. Yes, My 34 Lord, the best way of dealing with it in part is to 35 take the entire first page out, which is the cover, 36 and then you still have the title page there. That 37 would be more appropriate. 38 MR. WILLMS: Well, My Lord, I would rather have it in just the 39 way it is with us disabusing ourselves of the 40 handwriting, except to note that it is Neil Sterritt. 41 MR. GRANT: Well, I am not prepared to make that admission that 42 it's Neil Sterritt's. I don't know whose handwriting 43 it is, and I think it should be deleted. If my friend 44 doesn't want the handwriting he referred to, that page 45 should be taken out. If he wants it referred to, then 46 he should have made his objection. 47 THE COURT: I think in this connection the party tendering the 12283 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 exhibit is dominus litus, and if he doesn't want to 2 tender this page, I think can be deleted. 3 MR. WILLMS: If that's the case, My Lord, I object to my friend 4 cherry picking. So if he is going to take the page 5 out with handwriting on it, he should take all of them 6 out with handwriting on them. I don't think that he 7 can pick and chose his way through the document. I 8 think he should go one way or the other. 9 THE COURT: Where is another item with handwriting? 10 MR. WILLMS: There is handwriting on -- underlining on 13, there 11 is handwriting on 141. There is handwriting on 176. 12 THE COURT: There is an underlining of a word here, isn't there, 13 of 13? 14 MR. WILLMS: I am just looking at alterations, My Lord. And 15 then there is on the other pages that I mentioned, 16 184, and then on page 134, which is describing the 17 wars of Medeek and the feud, somebody has very 18 helpfully put in \"about 1440 to 1450\" on the first 19 page to help us all date this. Now, my friend should 20 take all of the handwriting pages out or leave them 21 all in, subject to the comment that Your Lordship 22 made. 23 MR. GRANT: My Lord, I appreciate when you say you are not going 24 to refer to it, that's fine. I thought the cover page 25 was sort of something that was -- clearly would be in 26 the realm of hearsay, and there was just no necessity 27 to have it in. I have no difficulty with ultimately 28 replacing any pages with handwriting in them, 29 substituting them with clear pages, if that's 30 necessary. 31 THE COURT: Well, in the first page, there is a second one which 32 is exactly the same. 33 MR. GRANT: That's why I suggested it. 34 THE COURT: Without marks on it, with slightly different typing 35 but exactly the same wording, I think. 36 MR. WILLMS: My Lord, may I just say one thing. My friend has 37 tendered this as something that -- the basis for the 38 admissibility is that this is a document that the 39 witness reviewed, and if that's the basis for the 40 admissibility of this document, then the document that 41 the witness reviewed should go in in its entirety in 42 my submission. 43 THE COURT: Well, if you can take that first page off, you have 44 got the document in its entirety. 45 MR. WILLMS: I don't know how the notes on the front of the page 46 affected this witness's views about how old -- 47 THE COURT: You are the one that didn't want them in. You 12284 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. THE COURT MR. FREY: THE COURT MR. GRANT didn't want the note -- you made a reservation about the notations. WILLMS: That is in light, My Lord, of my friend's discussion of the adaawk, that is, that those hand notes cannot be part of -- if it is an adaawk, that they clearly can't be part of that, but in terms of the basis that my friend sought to tender this, as something that the witness reviewed. Well, I certainly wish this was a more important point. Mr. Frey, do you want to make a contribution to this? No submission whatsoever, My Lord. I think we will take out that first page and I'll give it back to Mr. Grant, and I will -- if Mr. Willms insists, Mr. Grant will replace the pages with notations on them with clear pages. Thank you, My Lord. I will await for my friend to clarify with me outside of court. Now, to go on, My Lord. Now, on page 423, doctor, you rely on -- of your report again -- you rely on Drucker, and you refer and quote Drucker specifically, and where he states that according -- he states, after referring to certain adaawk, referring to Temlaxham, he says halfway down in that quote: \"It seems reasonable to accept these tales in a general sense. The Tsimshian had to reach their historic home by moving either from the interior or along the coast, and there is no evidence to support the possibility of coastal migration. After suffering ennumerable vicissitudes, the ancestral Tsimshian began to establish themselves in villages below the Skeena River Canyon. These villages were associate with salmon fishing grounds on streams entering the Skeena, and continued to be important economic sites to the Tsimshian until modern times.\" Now, with respect to -- with respect to that statement, do you adopt that statement as your own opinion? MR. WILLMS: I object, My Lord. Its got to be an assumption. THE COURT: In your discipline, Dr. Daly, is this an assumption you have made? THE WITNESS: No, this is not an assumption. This is something 12285 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant which is parallel with my findings, and it's -- it's something which people who work in the general area, they cite Drucker very frequently, because he makes sense in an overview -- in an overview context of their own data from their own findings in the field in the different cultures. It's very consistent. It's not an assumption, it's something based on our common experience as part of the discipline, part of our training. THE COURT: But isn't this an archaeological opinion? MR. GRANT: No, Drucker was an anthropologist, My Lord. THE COURT: And wasn't he accepting what archaeologists had found? THE WITNESS: He was -- his opinion was informed by it to some extent, but his main work was participant observation on the coast looking at the comparative work of others before him and reading all of the adaawks and the Barbeau Beynon material. He was familiar with all of that. THE COURT: So what you are just telling me is that your anthropological opinion is the same as Druckers? WITNESS: More or less. THE MR. THE MR. GRANT COURT GRANT THE COURT MR. THE MR. THE MR. GRANT COURT GRANT: COURT: GRANT: Q A On this point. Yes, on this point. And, My Lord, just the introduction is that Drucker comments on the coastal migration of the Tsimshian in the oral records as follows, and Drucker here is relying on the oral record, which is -- and this witness also has referred to the oral record. All right. Well, I am going to treat, for the moment anyway, this as an anthropological opinion, coincides in this point with Drucker. Yes. Based upon oral -- what he calls the oral record. ] suppose he means oral information or information received orally. Maybe I can clarify that with him. Or based orally or based on oral recollections of some kind. Well, you state oral record. What are you referring to there? It refers to the living oral record and the written form. The written form is basically the body of Barbeau Beynon material. There is a few that are not within that group, such as the Medeek adaawk that we just talked about that have come to light separately. 12286 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 Q Just one point about that Medeek adaawk, doctor, while 2 we are on it. Did you rely on any of the handwritten 3 notations on the copy that you looked at in terms of 4 your conclusions? 5 A I wasn't really aware of them until this interaction 6 here, except that I did note that the age of whoever 7 had written that on the front page, but it didn't have 8 any bearing on anything. This chief isn't even in the 9 Gitksan area. It was just the content of the adaawk 10 in terms of the relations between the people on the 11 land which I thought was very interesting. 12 Q So you relied on the typed script of the adaawk -- 13 A Yes. 14 Q Now, on page -- in page 424 you state in the middle 15 paragraph: 16 17 \"On the basis of these findings ...\" 18 19 And those findings -- you are referring to 20 archaeological findings that you have referred to 21 previously; is that right? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And that's -- you assume that they are correct. 24 25 \"... and the sequences of events that occur 26 in the oral histories, it is safe to 27 conclude that trading and raiding occupied 28 an important role in the socio-economic life 29 of the Northwest Coast in general, and even 30 in the more easterly hinterlands during the 31 last three thousand years. The development 32 of trade relations in the region has 33 probably been unfolding during this whole 34 lengthy period.\" 35 36 And that is an opinion that you have reached from 37 your own research as well as a reliance on the 38 archaeological record? 39 A Yes, that's correct. 40 Q And when you say the easterly hinterlands, what are 41 you referring to? 42 A I am referring to the area adjacent to the coastal 43 belt of cultures, the peoples in the mountains and on 44 the edge of the interior plateau. So that in, say, in 45 relation to Bella Coola it would be the adjacent 46 Carrier peoples on the edge of the Chilcotin Plateau. 47 In relation to the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en area it would 12287 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 be the -- that region in relation to the peoples of 2 the mouth of the Nass and the mouth of the Skeena and 3 to some extent the mouth of the Stikene, and the 4 relationship between the people at the mouth of the 5 Stikene, the very hierarchically organized coastal 6 people with the Tahltan and Tset'saut and other 7 interior groups of that region, and farther south the 8 Thompson people with the coastal people in this 9 general area. 10 Q You then go on in your report to deal with the 11 proto-contact period. And you state on page 426 and 12 427, the middle paragraph: 13 14 \"Protection of trade privilege, trade routes 15 and partners entailed the expenditure of 16 hospitality to build and renew trust and 17 credit, as well as the readiness to form 18 alliances to take up arms to defend trading 19 privileges.\" 20 21 You then say at the bottom of that page: 22 23 \"One such spiral of trading and raiding 24 appears to have been in process in 25 proto-contact and early contact times.\" 26 27 And that is -- just a moment. And that is a 28 conclusion that you've -- that is your opinion? 29 A Yes. 30 Q And on what do you rely in support of that opinion? 31 A Well, a lot of it is from my reading of the adaawk 32 histories. There is a real tempo of raiding and 33 trading in the period which -- where you begin to get 34 interweavings of European goods being mentioned, for 35 example, in the later -- in the later part of this 36 upsurge of trading and raiding that's reflected in the 37 stories that are told. 38 Q Okay. 39 A And they have been sequenced that way in the volumes 40 that I looked at by Barbeau himself. 41 Q Okay. So in the way -- Barbeau sequencing in those 42 four volumes was -- he sequenced them in a time order? 43 A Chronological order. 44 Q Okay. 45 A He didn't take sections of adaawk and put them in any 46 linear fashion, but he took each adaawk and assessed 47 the events a long time continuum, and then seemed to 122? R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 follow that format for presenting them. 2 Q Okay. Now, I would like to go onto page 427 in which 3 you state that: 4 5 \"The trade practices of the coastal peoples 6 affected the inland social life in the same 7 way that it affected the coast, but to a 8 lesser degree. In terms of pre-European 9 trade the coastal peoples obviously looked 10 on the inlanders as important but 11 exploitable trade partners.\" 12 13 And then you refer to \"Oberg\". Now, the first 14 statement, why do you conclude that the trade 15 practices affected inland social life to a lesser 16 degree, that is the trade practice of the coastal 17 people? 18 A I gave my reasons a bit earlier. The amount of 19 accumulable wealth and the ease of transportation were 20 much less in the mountainous regions, and that's quite 21 common in other regions of the world as well. If, 22 however, the coastal people are subsumed by another 23 power, because they are also accessible to attack from 24 the sea, then the inland peoples can come to an 25 ascendancy as brokers between the new force on the 26 coast and the hinterland. That was the situation with 27 the Ashanti I mentioned before, and in a way with the 28 Iroquois as well between -- who worked in the hills of 29 upstate New York, and they were controlling trade 30 between the coast and the Great Lakes basin. 31 Q Why do you conclude that the coastal peoples looked on 32 the inlanders as important but exploitable trading 33 partners? 34 A Well, it's a general finding of cross-culturally, 35 anthropologists looking at economies find that one 36 cannot really exploit one's relatives to a significant 37 degree. If one is going to exploit one's relatives, 38 one has to do it in terms of the kinship ideology and 39 the give and take of the local community. So to turn 40 a profit through trade, as we know it, you have got to 41 go into another social context. And one way is to go 42 somewhere where you are not so closely related. But 43 again you are going to another kinship society, so you 44 have to use ties of kinship to initiate your trade and 45 exchange, but if you take advantage of people there, 46 there is less repercussions for your own local social 47 relations than if you try to do it in your home area. 12289 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 Q You state on page 430 that: 2 3 \"As a whole, the Gitksan have retained more 4 of their pre-European cultural past than 5 have their coastal neighbours for the coast 6 had been subject to more missionary activity 7 and governmental administration by the 8 non-Native society.\" 9 10 And that is a conclusion that you have reached? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And why do you -- why do you come to that conclusion? 13 A Because, as I said yesterday, the documentation of the 14 fur trade reports and the ships' captains and ships' 15 logs at the end of the 18th and early part of the 19th 16 century attest to the use of the European trade goods 17 in the existing economy and system of social status 18 seeking and so on. It didn't -- there was no evidence 19 of it breaking down. The new features of the new 20 economy were fed right into an existing system, and 21 this led to the -- it appears to have led to a -- its 22 whole inflation of the feasting system and the 23 development of the potlatch and the bloating of the 24 potlatch processes into something that it hadn't been 25 before. 26 Q Where did that occur? 27 A Along the coast. 28 Q Okay. Then you state on the bottom of page 430 that: 29 30 \"It is unlikely that the Gitksan and 31 Wet'suwet'en economy in itself could have 32 generated the accumulated volume of 33 subsistence trade goods (mainly foods and 34 hides) necessary to set off such a spiral of 35 trading and raiding characteristic of the 36 coast in proto-contact times. However, the 37 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en, like other inland 38 peoples adjacent to the Northwest Coast, 39 became enveloped in these spirals of trading 40 that flooded north and south along the sea 41 coast, and then inland along the arterial 42 rivers and the capillaries of trails that 43 connected villages from the coast, for the 44 Coastal Range to the Interior Plateau and 45 onto the Rocky Mountains.\" 46 47 Now, this is a conclusion that you have arrived at 12290 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 from your research? 2 A It is, yes. 3 Q Now, why do you say that it's unlikely that the 4 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en economy in itself could have 5 generated an accumulated volume of subsistence trade 6 goods necessary to set off such a spiral of trading 7 and raiding? 8 A Given the rough estimation of population in the 9 Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en area, the goods available for 10 trade, there wasn't a very big margin that would have 11 been available for enormous -- significantly large 12 accumulation for expenditure in trade. They were 13 needed for the local round of subsistencece activities 14 in the course of the year, as I discussed earlier. 15 Q Okay. If I can go to page 435. The bottom paragraph, 16 doctor, on that page you state: 17 18 \"Still, the chief obtains a modicum of power 19 and influence through the proper hosting of 20 feasts, but this standing is seldom allowed 21 to build up and accumulate for more than 22 lifetime of the individual chief.\" 23 24 And then you go on to say: 25 26 \"This local authority and this influence by 27 example are unable to expand beyond the 28 boundaries of the kinship group and 29 effectively lead to the consolidation of 30 power in a broader and wider arena. 31 Attempts to do so, even at the height of the 32 so-called fur-trade era met with failure.\" 33 34 And this is a conclusion that you've actually 35 referred to, the reasoning for it in your explanation 36 of the hierarchy? 37 A Yes. 38 Q Is that right? 39 A Yes. 4 0 Q And \u00E2\u0080\u0094 41 A And in this region it's also impeded by the fact that 42 these are matrilineal societies which have their own 43 checks and balances against nodules of power going 44 from father to son over the generations. 45 Q Okay. Well, in fact from your reading of adaawk you 46 have seen examples of coastal chiefs, there are adaawk 47 that show the coastal chiefs that did develop a 12291 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q THE COURT MR. GRANT Q hierarchy. A Yes. Yes. Q And this would be Legaix? A Particularly Legaix. Classic example among the Tsimshian. Q Okay. I will return to that in the next chapter on trade, doctor. Now, going to page 437 -- 37 -- sorry, if I could just ask you. I won't read it, but if you refer on page 436 to Eric Wolf with respect to -- in support of this proposition as well as the oral history; is that right? Yes. I would ask the Court to note that section. I don't see the point in -- I won't read it, My Lord. Thank you. On page 437 you state: \"Since the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en do not possess institutions which reinforce chiefly exploitation of non-chiefly persons, they have never been at ease with enduring hierarchical leaders.\" That is your opinion? A Yes. Q You then go on to make an analogy with the Iroquois, which you already referred to in your oral evidence? A Yes. Q And that whole description goes, My Lord, goes from page 438 through to 441. And then at page 442 you conclude: \"It is my opinion that long before the arrival of Europeans, the large summer labour force of Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en people who gathered along the river ...\" Then you say: \"... much as they do today ... required a very large territory to fulfill its overall winter needs (that is, in addition to stored summer foodstuffs). Over-population led to resource depletion, famine conditions and social upheaval as recorded in oral 12292 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 histories like the Madeek narrative of the 2 Giskaast dispersal from Temlaxamid.\" 3 4 Now, stopping there. You are referring there to 5 the Medeek, the \"Men of Medeek\" that's just been 6 tendered this morning? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Exhibit 897, I believe. Now, you then state: 9 10 \"The territories claimed by the Gitksan and 11 Wet'suwet'en in their court action - about 12 20,000 square miles - with an estimated 13 population of 10,000, would approximate the 14 human population density that hunting 15 societies in other parts of the world have 16 been able to sustain; two to five persons 17 per square mile.\" 18 19 And you rely there on Birdsell and Professor Lee. 20 Now, first of all, is Birdsell -- who was Birdsell? 21 A Birdsell has done -- is an anthropologist who has done 22 a certain amount of work among the aboriginees of 23 Australia. Richard Lee we already referred to. 24 Q Yes. 25 A I came to this realization of two to five from 26 Professor Lee, when he said to me he was -- 27 Q Just a moment. Did he publish anything relating to 28 these figures? That is, did Professor Lee publish 29 anything of which he relied on Birdsell? 30 MR. WILLMS: Maybe my friend could ask whether this personal 31 communication has now been published. 32 MR. GRANT: Well, maybe I can deal with it. 33 THE COURT: Well, does it matter -- surely the question is, did 34 anybody publish it and is he reliable. 35 MR. WILLMS: Well -- yes, but we have got one publication, 36 Birdsell on the aborignees of Australia, and now there 37 is Richard Lee personal communication. Now, if that 38 hasn't been published, we don't need to get into at 39 all what Richard Lee said to the witness. 40 MR. GRANT: And I am not, My Lord. I asked the witness, when he 41 started to describe that, if he would refer to any 42 reference of it. But I think I can even go back to 43 the step that you raised. 44 Q This calculation of two to five persons per square 45 mile has been published by Birdsell; is that right? 46 A It has, and \u00E2\u0080\u0094 47 THE COURT: But, doctor, surely that makes a huge difference 12293 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 what your climate is and what your vegetation is and what your food supplies are, doesn't it? Surely there is a comparison here which is not much assistance. THE WITNESS: This is what they find statistically around the world, though, with hunting and gathering societies, that the level of technology has a lot to do with the population density across the face of the land, and people tend to spread themselves out according to the worst possible conditions, that they may have good returns in one season and poor returns in the other, so they budget their relationship between people and land in relation to that. THE COURT: Are you saying that a two to five ratio in tropical Australia equates to a two to five ratio in northern British Columbia, where the ground is covered with snow for half the year and temperatures are in the very low range for a good part of that year? THE WITNESS: Yes, but in Australia much of the area is of a desert nature, so that cancels out against the tropical portion. THE COURT: Is it any use at all to know that they happen to have a two to five ratio? THE WITNESS: Well, it's quite an important index in cross-cultural studies among anthropologists of an ecological bent. THE COURT: He says oh, look, here is a comparison, therefore we will base a proposition on it. My own common sense tells me that that's a meaningless comparison, but if you tell me as an anthropologist that that's the sort of thing you rely on it, I have to accept that opinion. THE WITNESS: Well, when I was doing work on historical reconstruction of the Huron society, I relied on an archaeological estimate of 20 people per square mile, and Professor Lee immediately said to me, well, this signals an entirely different social structure, because of the population density. It's used as a ready reckoner for what you can expect to find in terms of the complexity of the society, the density of the population on the face of the land. THE COURT: Well, if that's your opinion. I want to make sure that you really mean that. Maybe I can -- if I may pursue it. Yes. MR. THE MR. GRANT COURT GRANT Q The Huron example you gave, that's an agricultural society? 12294 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 A Yes. 2 Q Now, this Birdsell reference, the two to five persons 3 per square mile for hunting societies, has that been 4 relied upon by other anthropologists studying other 5 hunting societies or studying other societies in 6 concluding that they are hunting societies? 7 A That's one of the features. I mean, it's not the only 8 feature that you would use, but yes, it's part of the 9 data that you would use to establish the general 10 contours of the nature of that type of society. 11 Q Okay. Do you recall -- can you think of others who 12 have relied on this as one indicator, as you say? 13 A Well, there is a volume of papers edited by David 14 Damass, an anthropologist at McMaster University, 15 talking about the hunting groups right across northern 16 Canada, and it's very much -- the population density 17 question is very much at issue in that, as I recall. 18 Off the top of my head I don't know. But there is a 19 volume edited by Richard Lee and Irvine Devore called 20 \"Man the Hunter\", and it's dealt with in a number of 21 articles in that book as well. And it's dealt with in 22 the whole field of ecology and human geography as 23 well. It's quite a common one. 24 Q And in this volume about northern hunting societies in 25 Canada, is the two to five persons per square mile 26 relied upon for analysis of hunting societies? 27 A I believe it is, yes. 28 Q And in the articles in \"Man the Hunter\" is the two to 29 five persons per square mile relied upon for -- as an 30 indicator of hunting societies? 31 A Yes, I think -- I am not sure whether Birdsell has an 32 article in there or not. He may very well. 33 Q Now, you go on to describe the basis upon which you 34 assume the population of the Gitksan and the 35 Wet'suwet'en; is that right? 36 A Yes. 37 Q And you set that out at page 442 and 443? 38 A Yes. 39 Q And then you go on to say that, on the bottom of page 40 443, My Lord: 41 42 \"With such a population - 10,000+ - there 43 would have been considerable demands placed 44 on the local resources by the people of the 45 region - both directly for harvesting 46 foodstuffs and materials, and indirectly for 47 exchange of goods with inland and coastal 12295 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 neighbours, respectively to the east and the 2 west. Despite the fact that for at least 3 part of each year the bulk of the population 4 lived clustered in a number of fishing 5 centres in the Hazelton Variant of the 6 Interior Cedar-Hemlock biogeoclimatic zone, 7 the resources located there would not 8 sustain this many people. In other words, 9 the population required a territory of much 10 vaster proportions to maintain itself 11 through all seasons and all potential human 12 and ecological crisis. It also required a 13 clearcut system of control, ownership and 14 management of territorial resources, due to 15 the human demands placed upon these lands 16 and resources.\" 17 18 Now, just breaking that opinion down, can you 19 explain why you concluded that the resources within 20 the Hazelton variant would not have sustained 10,000 21 people? 22 A Well, certainly the villages within this variant 23 contained the very important cedar and the constricted 24 rivers where the salmon were caught. 25 Q Yes. 26 A But I don't -- it is my opinion that people could not 27 live on just the salmon as a foodstuff. 28 Q Yes. 29 A They required access to a variety, quite a wide 30 variety of other species at all different elevations. 31 A smaller population that just used the surrounding 32 areas, the sides of the valley, perhaps, would have -- 33 could have survived and may have at some point. I 34 don't know. But to have a balanced diet and a 35 balanced material culture with, grant it, some trade 36 from the interior and from the coast to supply more 37 diversity and/or certain luxury goods and certain 38 alternatives to the diet, it's my opinion that it 39 required these hunting territories, much like the 40 hunting territories of the adjacent Athabaskan 41 regions, fairly large regions which took into account 42 all the different ecological zones at the different 43 altitudes. 44 Q Okay. Now, then you say at the end of that statement 45 that it required a system -- 46 47 \"A clearcut system of control, ownership and 12296 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 management of territorial resources due to 2 human demands placed upon these lands and 3 resources.\" 4 5 Can you explain why you have come to that 6 conclusion? 7 A I raised before the work of Frank Speck in Ontario. 8 Q Yes. 9 A With regard to the husbanding of resources of the 10 peoples of Northern Ontario. It's the same concept, 11 as I see it, and there is a citation here from another 12 writer from B.C. studies, who has reviewed all of the 13 literature on this field about the nature of land 14 holding in relation to the fur trade right across 15 Canada. 16 Q Okay. Now, you state there that Ball -- this is 17 Georgina Ball? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And first of all maybe if you could look at tab 1 of 20 the third document book I have given you. Is that the 21 article upon which you are quoting from? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And who is Georgina Ball? What is her background? 24 A I don't know her background. 25 Q Okay. It indicates at the bottom that she -- footnote 26 one that she's -- 27 28 \"This is an extract of the author's M.A. 29 thesis, A History of Wildlife Management 30 Practices in British Columbia to 1918, 31 University of Victoria, 1981.\" 32 33 That -- do you know what she does now? 34 A I believe she works in some capacity as a government 35 researcher in Victoria. 36 Q Okay. Now, the quote in your report is from the first 37 page of that, isn't it? 38 A Yes. 39 Q And she is referring, amongst others, to the Gitksan 40 group and the Wet'suwet'en group? 41 A Yes. 42 Q Okay. 43 A A part of the quote is from the footnote. 44 Q Okay. Just a moment, just so that we can be clear on 45 that. Well, that quote appears to be all on the first 46 page, doctor. I think there is another quote -- 47 A This actual quote, yes, but I also -- I believe I 12297 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 cited another passage. 2 MR. GRANT: We'll come to that. Possibly that could be marked 3 as the next exhibit, My Lord. 4 THE COURT: 8 99. 5 THE REGISTRAR: 899, Tab 1. 6 7 (EXHIBIT NO. 899 - TAB 1 - WITNESS BOOK 8 THESIS EXTRACT OF GEORGINA BALL) 9 10 MR. GRANT: I am not going to \u00E2\u0080\u0094 I'll just refer you to that 11 reference, My Lord. 12 Q Now, page 445 you state your conclusion, and I'm 13 looking at halfway down there, you say: 14 15 \"In other words production and distribution 16 activities in the course of the annual cycle 17 of the economy dictated, in general, the 18 overall scope of Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en 19 territories and the system of land tenure 20 with its particular type of kin-based 21 ownership.\" 22 23 Then you state, after referring to Sheila 24 Robinson, and she is a -- you reviewed her report, 25 which was a report of the defendants, the provincial 26 defendants; is that right? 27 A Yes. 28 Q After referring to her report you state: 29 30 \"My view is, however, that indeed this body 31 of rules did exist and was an essential 32 feature of the economic and ecological 33 survival, and of pre-contact regional trade 34 and social interaction.\" 35 36 And that's your conclusion? 37 A That's right. 38 Q And in support of that you -- and I am just going to 39 refer you to these, My Lord. I don't want to take the 40 time to read them. On page 446 you refer to the 41 archaeological record? 42 A Yes. 43 Q And you rely on that and assume that that is accurate? 44 A Yes. 45 Q And just to say this, that archaeology is a branch of 46 the field of anthropology, isn't it? 47 A Yes, it's one of the four main branches of 1229? R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A THE COURT MR. GRANT anthropology. As an anthropologist, as a social cultural anthropologist in that field, archaeology is referred to and relied on -- We all have some training to varying degrees in archaeology. I have taken some introduction work and have participated in some excavation work under direction of the archaeologists, but I don't profess to be an expert in it by any means. : I don't see any reference to archaeology in page 446. : That next paragraph: \"The fur trade could only have intensitifed a process which had long been in place - which, according to the archaeologicl record had in fact been developing over the past two to three millennia.\" WILLMS: My Lord, I am assuming that that means Fladmark and Borden, because that's what the witness said archaeological record meant earlier on. I don't know if it's any different this time around. That's not what the witness said archaeological record was. He relied on the archaeologist. The archaeological record is much broader. COURT: What is the archaeological record upon which you relied on for this passage on page 446, please? MR. MR. GRANT THE MR. GRANT: Q Which authors? A I would add George MacDonald to the list. Q So Borden, Fladmark and MacDonald. Any others? A Sylvia Albright. Q Yes. Coupland? A Coupland's work, yes. I am trying to think of -- THE COURT: Allaire. THE WITNESS: The work at Namu. The name slipped my mind for the moment. THE COURT: I am going to take the morning adjournment now. THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court will recess. (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A SHORT RECESS) 12299 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO BE 3 A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE 4 PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE BEST OF MY 5 SKILL AND ABILITY. 6 7 8 LORI OXLEY 9 OFFICIAL REPORTER 10 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 12300 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO MORNING RECESS) 39 40 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. 41 THE COURT: Mr. Grant? 42 MR. GRANT: 43 Q Thank you, my lord. 44 You thought this over at the break, and as well as 45 Borden, Fladmark, MacDonald and Albright, you rely on 46 the -- Ames and Coupland -- 47 A Yes. 12301 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 Q -- in respect to your report? And also there was an 2 archaeologist who did finds and digs at Namu whose 3 name you can't quite recollect, but you rely on that 4 as well? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Now, as well as -- that's the archaeological record on 7 which you rely. You also rely, in support of your 8 opinion, that the \"body of rules governing access to 9 resources or for extensive and defined areas of land 10 for their exploitation\", existed, and \"was an 11 essential feature of the economic and ecological 12 survival, and of pre-contact regional trade and social 13 interaction.\" 14 I'm referring to the top of page 446, my lord. 15 You rely as well, in support of that proposition, on 16 anthropological work; is that right? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And you rely on the work of Dyen and Aberle? 19 A Yes. Well, that's not directly related to this 20 proposition. 21 Q Okay. Rosman and Rubel? 22 A Rosman and Rubel and Dyen and Aberle is a different -- 23 it indirectly supports these propositions, but it's 24 not directly relevant here. 25 Q Okay. And you rely on the ethnohistorical record in 26 support of this proposition? 27 A Oh, certainly. Yes. 28 Q And there you are referring to Harmon? 29 A Yeah, the descriptions that the fur traders both at 30 sea and on the land, on the coast and inland, gave of 31 the nature of the economy and the use of the land at 32 the time of contact. 33 Q Okay. And -- okay. And you also rely on the work of 34 Eric Wolf in support of this? 35 A I do. Yes. 36 Q And Fisher, Robin Fisher? 37 A Yes. 38 Q La Violette? 39 A Yes. 40 Q \"Struggle for Survival\". And Ruby and Brown, \"The 41 Chinook Indians\"? 42 A That's right. That's quite a good historical account 43 of the whole development of the fur trade along the 44 coast. You know, the Chinook language was the lingua 45 franca for the whole nineteenth century virtually, and 46 also the ethnographic accounts of the whole -- of the 47 whole region; Garfield's work on the Tsimshian, 12302 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 Swanton on the Haida, Oberg and Krauss, their work 2 among the Tlingit, De Laguna in the north, the work of 3 Robert Adlam on the Tahltan; various studies in the 4 general region, Mcllray's work on Bella Coola. 5 Q Now, you also rely in support of this thesis on the 6 evidence that you have determined about the 7 matrilineal kinship and inheritance system among the 8 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en; is that right? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And that's referred to at page 450. 11 You also rely on the oral histories, that is, 12 the -- the oral histories of the Gitksan and of the 13 Wet'suwet'en as reflected in the adaawk and the 14 Kungax? 15 A That's right. 16 Q And finally, you rely on the role of women which you 17 have determined from your research, and you refer to 18 that at page 449, \"Position of women in the society\"; 19 is that right? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And you state at page 449 that: 22 23 \"The position of women in the society is 24 an important indicator of the degree to 25 which economic accumulation and political 26 centralization have changed the reciprocal 27 relations of a kinship society.\" 28 29 And this is a proposition that is cross-cultural? 30 A Yes. And it's being explored by a number of 31 particularly women anthropologists today, assessing 32 the position of women in different types of societies 33 and the effect of colonization and first contact with 34 Europeans, the position that -- the actions of the 35 women in relation to these changes. And people like 36 Christine Gayly, working on the development of the 37 Tongan state, in -- 38 Q Tonga? 39 A Tonga. 40 Q Yes. 41 A Tongan state in Polynesia. And I can't remember the 42 author now, but there's another interesting one about 43 the women who resisted the Spanish conquistadors 44 incursions into the Inca empire by taking to the 45 altiplano and fighting to try to maintain the old 46 kinship system of the Inca state, even though the men 47 had found their -- many of the men had found their 12303 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 place within the new situation. The women had this 2 sort of Amazonian guerrilla warfare movement for about 3 a 200-year period. They took to animal husbandry with 4 Alpacas and so on, and raided the valleys against the 5 Spanish. 6 Q And is that in a book called \"Women of the Puna\"? 7 A That's \"Women of the Puna\". Yes. 8 Q Okay. And there's a \u00E2\u0080\u0094 9 A There's another anthropologist who has worked a lot 10 along this line, Eleanor Leacock. 11 Q Yes. 12 A Among the Montagnais-Naskapi in Labrador, and with 13 some of her students in relation to Iroquois women and 14 the central nature of the -- or the central -- the 15 standing and position of the women at the time of 16 contact and then what happened to this and whether or 17 not it is still a feature today. And they treat it as 18 a sort of diagnostic feature of the degree to which 19 the kinship system is still intact. If the women have 20 lost their equality, the finding -- the hypothesis is, 21 this is an anthropological hypothesis, is that they 22 don't retain their standing if the society is 23 significantly shifted into a patriarchal hierarchical 24 social system. Montagnais, M-o-n-t-a-g-n-a-i-s, 25 Naskapi, N-a-s-k-a-p-i. 26 Q You go on to say on page 449, after setting out this 27 thesis, that: 28 29 \"At the time of contact, Gitksan and 30 Wet'suwet'en women maintained control over 31 their household labour, their reproductive 32 rights, their annual produce, and their 33 specific rights and responsibilities in the 34 production process through the seasons. No 35 matter where they lived after marrying, 36 women retained their status and authority in 37 their own matrilineal house group. They 38 were able to ensure their children's access 39 to names, history, and territory, as 40 inheritance is reckoned through the mother.\" 41 42 Now, in respect of that opinion, do you -- do you 43 rely on -- what do you rely on? What have you relied 44 on to form that opinion? 45 A I've relied on my observations in the community in the 46 present day. 47 Q Yes. 12304 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 A 2 3 4 5 Q 6 7 8 9 10 A 11 Q 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 A 20 21 22 23 Q 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 A 33 Q 34 35 A 36 37 38 39 40 MR. GRANT 41 42 THE COURT 43 MR. GRANT 44 Q 45 46 47 And my comparative knowledge of the Iroquois where the standing of the women is based -- is very closely tied to their control of their own productive labour within the system. Okay. Just what I guess I should focus on because the next paragraph you talk about the contemporary situation, you refer to what I've just referred to as at the time of contact. Are you relying here on the oral histories? I'm sorry, I don't -- Well, you say you relied -- you've observed this today, and you go on to deal with that on the bottom of 449, but at the top, this description you give right after setting out the hypothesis is that at the time of contact Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en women maintained control, and you go on to what I've quoted. In support of that opinion, do you rely upon the ethnohistorical, ethnographical, and oral histories? It's the overall -- the overall documentation that I have read backs up my understanding of the situation today, particularly in relation to the role of the women in the fishing sites and so on. Okay. And I think that's what you have -- you state at the bottom. \"Chiefs still today consult their descent group, their mothers, aunts and wives, before making decisions.\"; And this is where you're referring to -- you made observations of this yourself? Yes. And observed what's happened in terms of the management of the fishing site as an example? Oh, yes. Well, usually the authority of running the fishing site is delegated, sometimes publicly, in the feast hall to one of the women and she's responsible for all the fishing. That's the case with Art Matthew's mother for example. : I'd just like to quote page 452 and 453, Doctor. You state in that middle paragraph -- : 452? 452. That's where I'll start, my lord. \"It is interesting to note that many economies which combine hunting with some 12305 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 other quite different economic pursuit, such 2 as already noted with the Iroquois, follow a 3 system of matrilineal kinship and descent.\" 4 5 You then go on to describe the situation with the 6 Iroquois and make a cross-cultural comparison, and 7 then you also refer to the Ashanti. 8 Now, going over to -- I'm sorry, the bottom of 9 that page, you say: 10 11 \"In all of the North American examples of 12 these hunting combination economies, 13 matrilineal peoples devised a local 14 organization of summer economic activity 15 which was largely under the direction of 16 women, and that of the winter season 17 (hunting, trapping, ice-fishing, and trade 18 pursuits) which was under the direction of 19 men. This division of labour necessitated 20 reciprocity between men and women, between 21 siblings and their in-laws. These societies 22 accumulated large amounts of foodstuffs for 23 winter use, and used a portion of this 24 accumulation for trade and diplomatic needs. 25 In both instances, matrilineal inheritance 26 gave great emphasis to local reciprocity, to 27 the 'sensitivity to issues of personal 28 dominance ', described by Wallace and 29 militated against enduring power blocks.\" 30 31 And that analysis that you've made of where you 32 refer to a number of societies, does that last 33 statement apply to the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en in 34 your opinion? 35 A Yes, it does. It's consistent with the experience of 36 the anthropologists right across what's called the 37 matrilineal belt of central Africa as well. 38 Q Thank you. I'd like to now move on to the next 39 chapter, my lord. That is the chapter on trade. I'm 40 sorry, my lord, if you could just bear with me. In 41 reference to this chapter, I'd like to -- ultimately 42 it will be a shortcut -- refer to page 96 of Volume 1, 43 which is a section that I left out. Yes, if the 44 witness could have it. 45 Do you have it, Doctor? 46 A Yes. 47 Q Okay. On page 96 you state: 12306 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 \"The peoples' oral histories indicate 3 that there have been definite periods of 4 intense barter, raiding and diplomacy across 5 the region. Probably the seventeenth and 6 nineteenth centuries constituted one such 7 era when trade goods, always important to 8 the subsistence economy, now began to take 9 on an existence of their own, as 10 increasingly exchangeable commodities, the 11 control of which led to wars and intense 12 competition through the North Pacific area.\" 13 14 And that is your opinion? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Okay. And then you -- 17 A I would qualify that a bit because I -- 18 Q Go ahead. 19 A I believe that the facts are such that we can conclude 20 that there was a degree of trade along the -- 21 commodity trade along the coast at the time of 22 contact, especially in the area of the Columbia River. 23 And from my feelings in the -- from having read the 24 migrations described in the adaawk and the wars, and 25 so on, there was a -- anthropologists normally see 26 raiding and trading very closely interlinked. And the 27 whole period of raiding and trading along the coast, 28 it's very hard to know whether this -- to what degree 29 it was the result of early contact, and to what degree 30 the existing trade was already intensifying. It's 31 been a question under investigation in other areas. 32 The Christine Gayly work I mentioned tried to assess 33 this and most of the data she found was that the 34 system was already in place, it just intensified with 35 the coming of the British. 36 Q Okay. Maybe this is -- I just want to refer you to 37 page 97 at this point, and 98. You state there that: 38 39 \"Competition and conflict with 40 neighbouring peoples in periods of intense 41 trade no doubt strengthened and reinforced 42 the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en system of 43 clearly defined, House-owned hunting 44 territories and fishing sites, a system 45 which articulated with ownership and 4 6 management of territory among the 47 neighbouring peoples. The ranking and 12307 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 stratification, and the clearly defined 2 system of property rights which have been 3 associated with trade activities existed in 4 proto-contact times and, as discussed in 5 Chapter 1, both the oral culture and 6 archaeological records affirm that such 7 stratification is of considerable antiquity. 8 Having said this I would argue that property 9 ownership evolved not simply from trade 10 between different ecological zones, but also 11 from the need to regulate resource use, 12 given the population and technology of the 13 times.\" 14 15 You go on then to refer to Ball, who is at Exhibit 16 899, and she says that: 17 18 \"Ball outlines the debate which has occurred 19 in Canadian anthropology over the past four 20 decades concerning the nature of land tenure 21 in pre-contact Canada, and adds her voice to 22 those who see the Pacific Northwest being an 23 area marked by well-defined ownership due to 24 population density, regular salmon runs and 25 indigenous trade.\" 26 27 And I'd just like you to go half-way down that 28 quote where it's stated: 29 30 \"'...1 contend that there is convincing 31 evidence that the Indians of British 32 Columbia developed land tenure systems 33 within recognized territories during 34 aboriginal times...I can offer three 35 possible reasons why: the first reason is 36 that the comparatively dense Indian 37 population on the Pacific watershed put 38 pressure on the resources; the second is 39 that the Pacific watershed Indians relied 40 heavily on anadromous fish for sustenance 41 and trade items - consequently they lived 42 rather sedentary lives compared to many 43 eastern tribes; and the third is that the 44 Indians did not exploit the resources solely 45 for local and tribal use but also for 46 intertribal trade. For archaeological 47 evidence that this trade went back as far as 1230? R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 ten thousand years ago, see Roy L. Carlson's 2 paper on \"Prehistoric Trade in British 3 Columbia: Obsidian\" that he presented to the 4 B.C. Studies Conference in Vancouver in 5 February, 1984. '\" 6 7 You then go on to state -- and that is of course 8 referred to in exhibit -- that's the first footnote in 9 Exhibit 899, isn't it? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Or part of it? 12 A Carlson was the name that I forgot in relation to the 13 site at Namu. 14 Q Thank you. 15 Then you say that: 16 17 \"There is no evidence to suggest that 18 ownership evolved from endemic conflict 19 which arose from any scarcity of resources 20 in pre-contact times. There is no doubt 21 that periods of conflict occurred during the 22 long, pre-European history of the continent; 23 however, it is more likely that the system 24 of land tenure developed at the time of 25 original settlement in the area.\" 26 27 Now, firstly, you adopt that -- the conclusions or 28 the opinions of Georgina Ball as your own with respect 29 to that statement that I have read to you? 30 A Yes, I do. 31 MR. GRANT: And I'd like you to go \u00E2\u0080\u0094 my lord, that's the \u00E2\u0080\u0094 I 32 won't be dealing with that sector or volume again. 33 I'll go back to Volume 2, Chapter 7. 34 Now, just to put your opinion on trade in context, 35 you state at page 455 that: 36 37 \"The approach adopted here, is to view 38 exchange and distribution as governed by the 39 way people own and control their economic 40 potential (resources, skills and labour); by 41 the way they organize their production 42 activities and satisfy their material needs; 43 and by the way they expend their labour and 44 wealth to maintain other social institutions 45 (such features as family, political 46 activity, religious and social welfare) 47 which are involved in the functioning of the 12309 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 THE COURT MR. GRANT Q A Q A A Q A community and its afairs. At the broadest level, the form of distribution of valued goods and services is integral to the way the community maintains itself through time.\" That's the middle paragraph there, my lord. Thank you. That is a synopsis of the approach and why you're dealing with trade here and how you relate trade to your own raw analysis of the economy? Of the economy. Now, on page 456, Doctor, you refer to economizing, and maybe you can just, in your own words, tell his lordship what -- at the bottom of page 456 what you mean when you talk about economizing? Basically what I mean is the accumulation of goods and services which can subsequently be used deployed in various ways as investments in further economic, political, and other ventures. It's an essential feature of the standard economics textbooks on the nature of economy in our society, the allocation of scarce resources to alternative ends. Well, within the Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en systems, at what level does the economizing occur within the social structures? It occurs within the -- at the level of the house group. Okay. I mean, in the hierarchical societies this is the -- this is governed by the market. Here in -- it's highly constrained in kinship systems so that the accumulation is limited to the kinship groupings and their boundaries, so people within the -- to whom you're related by blood, the blood line which is socially recognized which is matrilineal in these situations with the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en. Is this how your -- what you reflect on page 457, the middle of the first paragraph: \"The decentralized Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en do not have a tradition of central administration, but their House chiefs, nonetheless engage in the allocation of values to alternate ends within the context of the House system of ownership and 12310 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 control, especially regarding the deployment 2 of land and labour.\" 3 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. 6 A Or the deployment of labour on the land that they 7 control. 8 MR. GRANT: My lord, I just refer you to the next paragraph on 9 457, and the other paragraph on 458 starting \"The 10 society...\" I don't see the need to amplify on that 11 with the witness, but for your reference. 12 THE COURT: Thank you. 13 MR. GRANT: 14 Q Can you go to 459, Doctor? You state there, and again 15 after referring to Sheila Robinson, you state that 16 your opinion is different where you say: 17 18 \"It is my opinion, however, that trade, 19 competition and conflict, pre-dated the 20 modern era of European market relations, as 21 did the social factors which militated 22 against competitive hierarchy within the 23 society: The institutions of matrilineal 24 kinship groups, collective property-holding, 25 feast-giving and the laws of sharing and 26 reciprocity. Both competition and its 27 regulation are and were implicit in the 28 economy, society and culture of the Gitksan 2 9 and Wet'suwet'en.\" 30 31 And that is your opinion? 32 A Yes. 33 Q And in support of that opinion you rely and assume the 34 accuracy of archaeological finds of obsidian? 35 A Yes. 36 Q You rely on the -- your own findings of the -- in the 37 ethnohistorical record of the existence of trails and 38 bridges which you refer to later in this chapter? 39 A Yes. 40 Q You rely on the regional specialties which you have 41 analysed from the ethnographic and ethnohistorical 42 records, as well as the oral histories, and you 43 actually chart later in this chapter? 44 A Yes. And in the peoples' assertions and the logic of 45 what they say in an overall sense from the course of 46 my actual work in the field. 47 Q Okay. Which -- to use your own phrase, do those 12311 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 assertions ring true with respect to your other 2 aspects of your research? They are consistent with -- 3 A They're consistent. Yes. 4 Q Also you rely on the ecological location of the 5 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en -- 6 A Yes. 7 Q -- that you've already described? You rely on the 8 ethnohistorical -- I'm sorry, I referred to that. You 9 rely on the structural system, that is, the social 10 structure which you have analysed of the Gitksan and 11 Wet'suwet'en? 12 A Yes. Yes. 13 Q At the bottom of that page you state: 14 15 \"The decisions about the allocation of 16 resources to alternate ends is almost 17 eclipsed in a non-state, kinship economy by 18 the principle of reciprocity and the 19 obligation to maintain the subsistence 20 safety net of all members of the community.\" 21 22 And that's your opinion? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And this Dr. Lee has done similar work, and your -- 25 what you -- 26 A He's coined that phrase, \"the subsistence safety net\", 27 which is used quite widely among anthropologists 28 today. Nobody's allowed to fall through the cracks. 29 There's a kinship basis for social welfare, and it's 30 also an indicator for the degree of hierarchy in the 31 society too. 32 Q Okay. A few days ago his lordship raised the issue 33 with respect to section 48, the protection of the 34 widow provisions. Does this analysis of the 35 subsistence safety net, does it reflect anything on -- 36 with respect to your conclusions that that has an 37 impact? 38 A Well, in the matrilineal society, like the Gitksan and 39 Wet'suwet'en, a widow has to be looked after by her 40 own house group with the assistance of her father's 41 house group or they lose face and the standing of 42 their house is tarnished in the community. And this 43 is all worked out in the course of the transactions in 44 the feast that follow the death of the spouse. 45 Q Okay. I'd like to take you to page 461, Doctor, and 46 quote you there. You stated that: 47 12312 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 \"While the rules of reciprocity governed 2 exchanges between groups in the region this 3 is not to say that there has been no seeking 4 of maximum benefit between peoples, and 5 their respective chiefs. The seeking of 6 economic advantage was limited by 7 considerations of kinship obligation and the 8 ritualized rules of chiefly interaction in 9 the feast hall. In other words, sectional 10 interests had to be weighed against the 11 costs of jeopardizing ongoing relations 12 between Houses, villages or distant trade 13 partners with whom one interacted through a 14 common, shared cultural medium of kinship 15 reciprocity.\" 16 17 Doctor, in light of what you -- that is a 18 conclusion that you arrived at, or an opinion with 19 respect to the Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Now, you go on to explain the types of reciprocity at 22 pages 462, 463, and maybe rather than reading that, 23 you can just summarize what you mean by reciprocity in 24 anthropological terms, and the types of reciprocity 25 that you deal with? 26 A The whole discussion was -- came to the floor in 27 the -- in the late 1920's with the work of Marcel 28 Mauss, M-a-u-s-s. 29 Q Yes. 30 A A French anthropologist, who analysed the potlatch 31 material of Franz Boas, and it was in effect a 32 detailed analysis of what happens when someone gives 33 someone else a gift, the whole thing about gift giving 34 and repayment of gifts, which is in many ways a 35 prototype for the nature of social relations in band 36 and tribal societies. Since then -- 37 THE COURT: Prototype of what? 38 THE WITNESS: Of the way social relations are conducted in band 39 and tribal societies; a give and take. You do it to 40 me and I'll do it to you, or we'll behave well to you 41 if you'll behave well to us, or the eye for an eye and 42 a tooth for a tooth is the same concept. So since 43 then the anthropologists have tried to refine this 44 concept, and they generally use these today in terms 45 of a balanced reciprocity or generalized reciprocity, 46 or negative reciprocity. And it entails different 47 types of social relations which are seen to be 12313 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. GRANT: Q A Q A Q A MR. GRANT dominant in any one society being studied. Generalized reciprocity is everyone in the group involved gives from time to time and it all balances out in the end, or that's the common assumption. Balanced reciprocity is an expectation of return roughly equal to what you have given. And a negative reciprocity is seeking a gain without -- seeking to gain something which will -- you hope you will not have to repay, or where you can maximize your values at the expense of someone else, so that the give and take of the gift metaphor is negated. Now, you refer, for example, on page 462 that a generalized reciprocity would be, for example, a -- services of parents to offspring, giving of goods and services in the course of the older generation nurturing the younger one. That's an example of generalized reciprocity? Yes. And balanced reciprocity, what would be an example of that? Well, if you invite me for dinner and I arrive with a bouquet of flowers, when I invite you for dinner you would arrive with a bottle of wine. That's a balanced reciprocity. It's according to the common etiquette of our society. And negative reciprocity, what would that be? Negative reciprocity would be taking a certain amount of goods and -- or buying a certain amount of goods cheap and selling them at a high rate somewhere else and achieving a modicum of value which is not going to be repaid. It's an imbalanced situation, and that entails a whole different type of accumulation of wealth and so forth. : Now, I'd like to give you an example from the ethnohistorical material you've referred to, and I'd like to refer you to the green book, tab -- Exhibit 895, the John Brown report, at tab 87. You recall this is the 1826 report in which he discusses, amongst other things, dealings with the Wet'suwet'en. Now, on page -- my lord, there's a page that's on the right -- every second page I think is stamped on the right-hand side with the page number, and right after the page that's stamped 17 -- I apologize that I didn't get an opportunity to -- I didn't have this numbered at the top. The page immediately following that. 12314 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 THE COURT 2 MR. GRANT 3 Q 4 5 6 A 7 Q 8 9 10 A 11 Q 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 A 30 Q 31 32 33 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 39 40 41 A 42 Q 43 44 45 46 47 Yes. Now, in this area of the description, I believe that Mr. Brown was referring to meetings with the Indians at the Forks? Yes. And just about two, four, the sixth line up from the bottom -- the Forks being the -- around the area of the Bulkley and Skeena junction? Yes. \"When I went there the first time in 1823 several of the chiefs made me presents of furs, in return for which I made them what I considered very handsome presents consisting of cloth blankets, shirts, et cetera. But the following day they brought back the whole and informed me that it was not to receive such articles as these that they had given me their furs. One of them, Smuggletrum...\" S-m-u-g-g-1-e-t-r-u-m, or it may be t-s-u-m. \"... from whom I had received about twenty skins, I had given two yards of red...\" \"Stroud\". \"...stroud, one anah shirt...\" A-n-a-h. \"...one awl, one fire still, one gun flint.\" \"One fire steel\". I'm sorry. Thank you. \"...two...\" \"Two needles\". \"...two needles, two hanks thread, two yards gartering...\" \"Gartering\" it looks like. \"...ten bales, one half pound powder, one pound shot, and one six pound tobacco. Acquitted me to take...\" 12315 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 A No, \"requested me\". 2 Q Oh, \"...requested me...\", thank you, \"...to take back 3 the whole again and give him a...\" 4 A \"Dressed skin\". 5 Q 6 7 \"...dressed skin in the place. On which I 8 took the articles and in their stead gave 9 him two middling moose skins as an 10 equivalent for his furs. And the same 11 arrangement I was obliged to make with the 12 others, after which they were all well 13 pleased.\" 14 15 Now, it may be out of place, Doctor. I just 16 wondered if with respect to that description Mr. 17 Brown, with the Wet'suwet'en chief, how that fits into 18 what you've described with respect to reciprocity; if 19 that's an example of the reciprocity relationship? 20 A It's a reciprocity, of course, from the Hudson Bay 21 perspective. The trader is seeking goods at as cheap 22 a rate as possible which will be sold on an 23 international market, and the native people involved 24 are seeking what they consider to be a value 25 equivalent to what they have given, more or less a 26 balanced reciprocity. But I think that this is 27 significant for other reasons as well. 28 Q Okay. And I'll come back to it. Can you go back to 29 your report then? I'll return to that. 30 At page 462 at the bottom you say: 31 32 \"In terms of local community affairs, 33 the chiefs claim that what is expended by 34 one house is ultimately repaid by others, 35 and in this way a roughly balanced 36 reciprocity is achieved.\" 37 38 Now, when you talk about -- you're talking here 39 about the Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en? 40 A Yes. 41 Q And when you talk about local community affairs, what 42 are you talking about? What is the community you're 43 referring to? 44 A Within the -- within the village or groupings of 45 nearby villages, such as the ties between Gitseguekla, 46 Kitwanga, Kitwancool, or between Hagwilget and 47 Moricetown, or between Hagwilget and Gitanmaax or 12316 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 Gitanmaax, Kispiox, and the people from the northern 2 two villages who now live in those villages. It's the 3 local groupings of day-to-day interactions. 4 Q Can you refer to the bottom of page 463? 5 6 \"The feast or potlatch has long been the 7 ceremonial, legal and political focus in the 8 general culture of the north coast. As 9 well, the feast has economic features, 10 especially pertaining to the mobilization of 11 values which will be presented to the 12 guests: proper hosting services (the 13 mobilization of the kinship labour force), 14 as well as the food, gifts and payments to 15 be made to the chiefs and other guests. 16 Adams describes the Gitksan feast as quite 17 competitive, while I have found that the 18 participants stress that the allocation of 19 resources which occurs publicly in the feast 20 is in general carried out according to the 21 principles of balanced reciprocity (the 22 paying off of debts and the fulfilment of 23 obligations by the hosts to the guests - 24 clearing the name of the House and settling 25 business such that the House, at the end of 26 the feast, is not under obligation to 27 others).\" 28 29 And that's your opinion? 30 A Yes. 31 Q Okay. Now, you deal in the section on feasts with 32 Adams in more detail, and you actually do a -- you do 33 a detailed description of a generic pole-raising feast 34 in that chapter? 35 A Yes. 36 MR. GRANT: And you compare the differences with yourself and 37 Adams -- 38 MR. WILLMS: My lord, what's a generic pole-raising feast? 39 Perhaps Mr. Grant could define that? 40 MR. GRANT: It's not one specific feast, my lord. It's a 41 feast -- it's not the feast of a specific person, but 42 going through the whole structure of what happens at a 43 typical pole-raising feast. 44 THE COURT: Your friend says you're mixing your modifiers. 4 5 MR. GRANT: 4 6 Q We'll get a chance to come to that. 47 On page 465, Doctor, you conclude: 12317 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 \"From my experience of present-day Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en feasts, and from information elicited from members of these societies, I do not believe that the accumulation of prestige through lavish and competitive giving is an important feature of the transactions that occur.\" And you say at the beginning of the previous paragraph: \"This process, as I've experienced it, appears to be motivated throughout by the need to repay and clear the name of the chief and House from all indebtedness.\" And that is your conclusion based on your observations and your research? A Yes. MR. GRANT: And can you explain why you've come to that conclusion in that second -- the lower of the two references on page 465? THE COURT: Isn't that explained by what he just said, that the purpose is to repay and clear the name of obligation of indebtedness? Surely that's already been explained, hasn't it? Hasn't it, Doctor? THE WITNESS: I think so, and \u00E2\u0080\u0094 MR. GRANT: Q Okay. A -- the force and adamancy with which the participants explain it makes it very vivid in my mind. Q Now, on the contrary, just on the bottom -- or on page 466, you refer to the middle paragraph there. You state that chiefs: \"...can, however, remove blots and stains that previous holders may have allowed to form on the lustrous image of the name. This is achieved by demonstrating their commitment and sense of responsibility to the feast system. It is not achieved by striving to maximize economic returns so as to be able to organize unusually lavish feasts.\" Now, can you what do you mean by \"unusually 1231? R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 lavish feasts\", and why do you include that? 2 A Well, the basis for using the word \"unusually\" is that 3 there's a standard on what is appropriate for a 4 different type of feast and for the standing of the 5 participants. For example, every high chief is 6 accorded the same status. On the books every chief 7 has the same status. Every high chief has the same 8 status. Every deniize' and every simoogit in the two 9 languages. And they're seated with deference in the 10 feast hall and people listen to them and don't 11 interrupt when they speak, and so on. But the thing 12 is, each house has different fortunes at any one time, 13 and they may not live up to the status of their 14 chief's name. So in a de facto sense they're not very 15 high at one time because they're not -- they don't 16 have their act together economically or in terms of 17 the feasting exchanges, but they're still treated 18 with -- with the respect -- with the ceremonial 19 respect. If they're going to turn that ceremonial 20 respect into living political force, they have to be 21 very good at the feast-giving and mobilize all their 22 forces, but they can only go to a certain height. 23 They can't go above any other -- potential of any 24 other chief. If they do, this is considered to be not 25 just bad form but a sign of aggression that someone 26 wants a big competitive fight, and that's not -- 27 that's not accepted. 28 Q And you're talking here about the Gitksan and 29 Wet'suwet'en feasts? 30 A The Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en feasts that I've seen and 31 that people have talked about in the present 32 generation. 33 Q And those described in the evidence of witnesses such 34 as Mary McKenzie and -- 35 A Yes, that's right. 36 Q And you also rely on the Beynon account of the 1945 -- 37 A Certainly do. It's very rich material. 38 Q Then you talk about, just at the bottom of that: 39 40 \"In the history of the 41 Tsimshian-speaking area there have been 42 aberrations to this procedure where balanced 43 reciprocity (paying back) is converted into 44 competitive accumulation of values. These 45 values are realized by attempts to out-give 46 other chiefs. Such activities are 47 remembered in the ada'ox histories because 12319 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 they are such blatant violations of feasting 2 principles.\" 3 4 And then you state: 5 6 \"The majority of examples of 'negative 7 reciprocity feasting' derive from the 8 market-distorted period of nineteenth 9 century potlatching.\" 10 11 And you then -- you use both terms, feasting and 12 potlatching, and if you can explain if there's a 13 difference between the two in anthropological terms? 14 A Well, the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en people are 15 adamantly opposed to the word potlatch. They don't 16 like it at all. They say it's -- first of all, it's a 17 foreign word. And I understand it's -- it comes from 18 a Chinook word. And they refer to -- when they do 19 refer to the word, it's referred to a competitive 20 giving of massive amounts of goods or sometimes it's 21 referred to as power potlatching. But it's referred 22 to in relation to the coastal people not among their 23 own ranks. 24 Q And in the coastal ethnographies -- I'm sorry, in the 25 ethnographies of the Tsimshian-speaking area, and here 26 when you say that, are you referring to the area 27 encompassing the Gitksan, or a more limited area, at 28 the top of that paragraph? 29 A I'm sorry, where? 30 Q You say \"In the history of the Tsimshian-speaking 31 area\"? 32 A This is -- this is the area rough -- as I said before, 33 roughly the -- the Nass and Skeena drainage system. 34 Q Okay. 35 A Of course the Bulkley portion of the Skeena drainage 36 system is the Wet'suwet'en people, but -- 37 Q Okay. 38 A And the Upper Babine is the Babine-Carrier people. 39 Q Why do you conclude that these power potlatches 40 referred to in the oral histories are \"blatant 41 violations of feasting principles\"? 42 A Because the morality of feasting and of day-to-day 43 relations between house groups is a give and take of a 44 balanced reciprocity. That's the morality and the 45 ideology. So when this -- when this is violated in an 46 amazingly large scale, it is cause to be remembered. 47 It's something that gets passed on. 12320 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 Q Can you turn to the next page? 2 A Just as historians seldom write very much about 3 peaceful times, but you get a lot of accounts about 4 war. 5 Q Okay. Can you turn to page 467? And you -- I'm 6 sorry, I'll just -- I'll go from the bottom of 466, my 7 lord. You say: 8 9 \"The Eagle Clan ada'oxs of the trading chief, 10 Legyeex provide examples of competitive 11 feasting which present-day Gitksan consider 12 to be in violation to the Native law.\" 13 14 Legyeex was the Tsimshian -- coastal Tsimshian 15 chief; is that right? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Okay. Now, then you go on to say -- and you make a 18 contrast from the ethnography that: 19 20 \"In the anthropological literature, 21 these very anomalies are frequently treated 22 as the standard form of feasting or 23 potlatching all over the culture area. 24 Franz Boas, for instance, argued that the 25 underlying principle of potlatching is a 26 market relationship: '...the interest 27 bearing investment on property', and Codere 28 has stated that 'Potlatches were planned 29 like campaigns against an enemy.'\" 30 31 Now, what was the basis -- from your reading of 32 these authors and the ethnographies of the area, what 33 was the basis for their conclusions about this 34 feasting? 35 A The basis for their conclusions, it was an analysis of 36 potlatches which have been seen and recorded at the 37 end of the nineteenth century and the early years of 38 the twentieth century. 39 Q Where? 40 A A lot of it was based on Boas' own work in the 41 Kwagulth or Kwakiutl area on the north end of 42 Vancouver Island and the adjacent mainland and island 43 around what is today Alert Bay. 44 Q Was this -- were these in any proximity to trading 45 centres? 46 A Yes, they were. 47 Q And did that affect the situation? 12321 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 A The similar -- well, another source are the huge 2 potlatches that were held in Alaska in around the 3 mouth of the Stikine and the Taku and other rivers, 4 and Chilkat River and around Port Simpson near Prince 5 Rupert at the mouth of the Nass around the corner from 6 Prince Rupert -- 7 Q Well \u00E2\u0080\u0094 8 A -- and down on the lower -- the lower Columbia River, 9 the same. 10 Q Okay. 11 A The ethnohistorical reports show all of the very 12 lavish excessive giving of gifts. 13 Q Okay. Now, is there any -- from an anthropological 14 perspective, is there any conclusion you can arrive at 15 that there's a relationship between the timing and the 16 location of these power potlatches, and the fact that 17 they were competitive potlatches? 18 A Yes, I -- they were all -- all recorded at locations 19 where there was -- there were trading posts. There 20 was access to a huge influx of commodity goods. 21 Q Yes. 22 A And the people took this flood of commodity goods and 23 fed it back into the existing system, and they -- it 24 brought a lot of people together in areas that had -- 25 normally didn't associate with one another, and they 26 had to work out their standing, their competitive 27 standing, vis-a-vis one another, and they did it 28 through the -- through the form of the feasting, 29 giving and receiving, but in a very competitive 30 fashion. 31 And this is -- Helen Codere is very clear on that, 32 and she fits -- she locates her work in a historical 33 context. But Boas was speaking in the ethnographic 34 present, in the sense that I spoke of, without any 35 reference to historical context. 36 Q Okay. 37 A Just comparatively. 38 THE COURT: Are you saying that that was not representative of 39 traditional feasting and gifting? 40 THE WITNESS: I'm saying it's not representative of the 41 feasting in the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en areas probably at 42 that time, and in many areas in more isolated areas 43 along the coast which were some distance from the 44 centres of trade. However, at that period of the sea 45 otter trade between the late 17 -- well, about 1780 46 and 1820, it was a very marked -- there was a very 47 marked upsurge in this sort of activity. 12322 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 MR. GRANT: 2 Q Okay. And you then contrast Codere and Boas' 3 descriptions with Drucker, and Drucker, you state: 4 5 \"...quite rightly characterizes feast-giving 6 among the north coast peoples as essentially 7 concerned with the veneration of the 8 deceased chief, and the long process of 9 properly installing a new one. He argues 10 that the competitive potlatch recorded in 11 the nineteenth century was most pronounced 12 at the fur trade centres of Fort Rupert and 13 Port Simpson where a number of chiefs from a 14 wide area gathered in unusual circumstances 15 engendered by the trading posts, and feasted 16 competitively in an effort to establish an 17 order and structure of precedence in these 18 new social conditions. Yet even under these 19 conditions of rivalrous feasting in the 20 nineteenth century, the fruits of trade and 21 profit-seeking could only be socially and 22 morally validated in the framework of 23 reciprocal gift-giving.\" 24 2 5 And do you -- 26 A There's another anthropologist who is of the same 27 position. 28 Q Who's that? 29 A Who was working back in the 1920's and 30's -- Homer 30 Barnett -- among the Coast Salish. 31 Q Okay. 32 A And he is -- his general assessment of the feasting is 33 in accord with Drucker and it rings true to what I 34 have learned from -- directly from the people and from 35 the reading of their oral traditions -- 3 6 Q And \u00E2\u0080\u0094 37 A -- in the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en area. 38 Q And is Marcel Mauss, who you've already referred to, 39 does he take a similar position? 40 A Yes. He's consistent. Yes. 41 Q And that \u00E2\u0080\u0094 42 A He adds another dimension as well, which is the 43 psychic and spiritual power which is being 44 reciprocated between the chiefs in the course of the 45 events. 46 Q And you adopt this opinion on 467? You agree with 47 that opinion, at the bottom? 12323 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 A Yes, I do. 2 Q Which is set out as a summation of the Drucker 3 opinion. 4 Now, at page 469, you make reference to the Winter 5 Ceremonies, and I'd just like to refer you to it. You 6 just say half-way through that first paragraph: 7 8 \"That is to say, even in periods of greatest 9 competition and aggression - for instance, 10 during the period when the Winter 11 Ceremonies, with their expression of 12 ritualized property relations, diffused 13 northward from the central British Columbia 14 coast and reached the periphery of Gitksan 15 and Wet'suwet'en society, there were actual 16 limits to competition imposed by the 17 structure of the kinship order itself. 18 These limits were defined by the 19 principle of reciprocity. Reciprocal 20 gift-giving and debt-paying is an indigenous 21 feature of the social relations of the 22 culture area.\" 23 24 And you rely here on -- or, I'm sorry, I just 25 wanted to ask you, with respect to that, that's your 26 opinion and a further elaboration of what you've 27 earlier described? 28 A Yes. 29 Q Now, can you just explain, because here you refer to 30 the Winter Ceremonies, what you're referring to there 31 and what influence that has on this dynamic you're 32 describing? 33 A The Winter Ceremonies were a set of events very -- I 34 shouldn't say \"were\" because they're still -- they're 35 still in existence in the middle of the coast and in 36 the southern area, the Coast Salish area. It's a 37 spiritual and religious as well as hospitality event 38 that occurs after the end of the growing season when 39 the people say the spirits come out of the land. And 40 there's a whole system of dance societies that have 41 grown up around this concept that has involved the 42 hosting and guesting of members of different 43 societies, where the guests who would come to a dance 44 would bring a lot of goods to present to the host in a 45 very competitive fashion. I'm not familiar with the 46 history of this whole movement or set of social 47 events, but it seemed to have been spreading all over 12324 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 the coast because at the time of contact there are 2 mentions of it, and some of the people I've talked to 3 have memories of certain aspects of this having been 4 practised in the Wet'suwet'en area and in some of the 5 Gitksan villages. So some of the same features, some 6 of the same types of reciprocity, existed in those 7 Winter Ceremonies as in the feasting. 8 Q Okay. I'd like to refer you to page 470 where you 9 state: 10 11 \"The mobilization of goods through trade 12 in the nineteenth century was targeted upon 13 the legitimization of this activity in the 14 feast hall. The reverse never occurred: 15 the feast did not become the avenue to 16 straightforward market relations. Leading 17 trader chiefs were indeed able to mobilize a 18 retinue of support by means of feasting, but 19 feasting has never been a vehicle for 20 accumulating goods and services that can be 21 expended in trade - beyond the sphere of 22 feast-giving.\" 23 24 Do you wish to comment on that opinion or -- first 25 of all, I just wasn't sure if you had any modification 26 to it? That's what I'm referring to. 27 A I'm afraid my mind was wandering a bit. Sorry. 28 Q You say at the end: 29 30 \"...feasting has never been a vehicle for 31 accumulating goods and services that can be 32 expended in trade - beyond the sphere of 33 feast-giving.\" 34 35 A Feasting -- no, I think I would stand by that. In the 36 high -- in the high period of power potlatching, goods 37 were accumulated for the feasting and for the 38 establishing of status between high chiefs, but it -- 39 Q Okay. Now, you refer to leading trader chiefs. Are 40 you referring here to persons such as Legeeyx? 41 A Yes. 42 Q And Shakes? 43 A Chief Shakes on the mouth of the Stikine River was a 44 very big -- 45 THE COURT: How do you spell that? 46 THE WITNESS: \u00E2\u0080\u0094 Tlingit chief. S-h-a-k-e-s. 4 7 MR. GRANT: 12325 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 Q And are you referring also to Nekt? 2 A To some extent Nekt as well. Yes, he was -- 3 Q Okay. Was Nekt a Gitksan? 4 A He was a Gitksan through his mother. 5 THE COURT: Nekt is N-e \u00E2\u0080\u0094 6 THE WITNESS: N-e-k-, underlined, t. 7 MR. GRANT: 8 Q Uh-huh. 9 A Who came to prominance -- well, there's a whole series 10 of oral narratives about his origins. 11 Q Okay. 12 A But was very prominant in the -- in the defence of the 13 Kitwanga area against incursions by coastal peoples up 14 through the Gardiner Canal and through Kitimat into 15 the Kitwanga area, and the fort that George MacDonald 16 excavated and his artefacts of which are on display in 17 Ottawa. 18 THE COURT: And when was that? Is it dated? 19 MR. GRANT: When was Nekt or the fort? 20 THE COURT: No, Nekt? 21 THE WITNESS: It's in the general contact period, just on the 22 fringes. 2 3 MR. GRANT: 24 Q You earlier said there was more than one Legeeyx. Was 25 there more than one Nekt? 26 A There's more than one Nekt too. Yes. 27 Q Okay. Just \u00E2\u0080\u0094 28 A The personalities are reborn through reincarnation 29 over a long period of time, or the -- that's one way 30 of saying it. Another is that people are socialized 31 into a personality of a famous name when they're being 32 trained to be a chief. 33 Q Okay. Tab 68, 69 and 70, which will be exhibits, and 34 you don't need to refer to them, my lord, except to 35 note them. It would be Exhibit 896. 68, 69 and 70, 36 refer to adaawks or oral histories of Nekt. 37 38 Q Now \u00E2\u0080\u0094 39 A I'm not sure that's the limit of the adaawks on Nekt. 40 Q No, that was just a sampling of the adaawk that you 41 had. And MacDonald in his writings on the fortress 42 refers to Nekt; is that right? 43 A Yes. Yes. 44 Q Now, can you explain, if Nekt was a Gitksan through 45 his mother and was a trading chief, how -- and you've 46 explained that the Gitksan were not generally as 47 directly involved with this -- 12326 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 A He was a trading and raiding chief very much involved 2 in the economic and political process of that general 3 period, both on the Nass and down into the Kitimat 4 area, as well as out to the Queen Charlottes, which 5 was his origin. 6 Q Yes. 7 A So he was very much in that matrix, one of the fingers 8 of that coastal trend, if you like, which was actually 9 in the Gitksan area. 10 Q Now, you go on to talk about gambling on the bottom of 11 page 470, and you say: 12 13 \"A further aspect of the feasting 14 complex also worked against the principle of 15 negative reciprocity; that aspect was the 16 gambling which generally occurred after the 17 conclusion of a major feast.\" 18 19 Then you say: 20 21 \"In many cultures around the world gambling 22 is a highly important institution where 23 social relations between persons and groups, 24 and between persons and nature, are markedly 25 reciprocal. Gambling is one of the few ways 26 members of such societies can engage 27 actively in negative reciprocity - in 28 seeking to win or obtain values at the 29 expense of others - without provoking 30 immediate social discord, vengeance and 31 feuding.\" 32 33 Now, that's your opinion with respect to gambling 34 and its interconnection to the Gitksan and 35 Wet'suwet'en society? 36 A Yes. 37 Q And you say that this is -- that gambling is a highly 38 important institution in many cultures around the 39 world. Is this part of the study of anthropology? 40 Has this been found by anthropologists? 41 A It's certainly been found by anthropologists. It 42 strikes anthropologists in many many situations, the 43 adherence to gambling, and it has been analysed as a 44 way of seeking negative reciprocity or seeking gain 45 which is outside the strictures of kinship. So you 46 can -- you can strike it rich and nobody will be able 47 to retaliate because you end up wearing their shirt. 12327 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 That's the sort of situation that results. 2 Q Okay. Now, can you give some examples of -- 3 A Oh, there's gambling in all the cultures of this 4 coast, as far as I know, and we -- when I worked in 5 the museum we had gambling stick games from the Inuit 6 areas in northern Canada, and the forest areas, right 7 across -- and very significant parts of the ceremonial 8 cycle of the Iroquois are dependent on who wins the 9 gambling game in the middle of the ceremonies. 10 Hunting societies engage in a lot of gambling. 11 Q Okay. You just cut yourself off. You said \"forest 12 societies across\", across Canada are you talking 13 about? 14 A Across Canada. 15 Q Has there been a major work done by Woodburn regarding 16 gambling? 17 A Yes, on the group of hunters in the centre of Africa 18 called the Hadza, H-a-d-z-a, where he analysed in some 19 detail this function of gambling in a decentralized 20 society. 21 Q What about with respect to European peasant societies 22 that are kinship based? 23 A Oh, yes. A colleague of mine by the name of Michael 24 Hurzfeld, H-u-r-z-f-e-1-d, has recently brought out an 25 interesting book on the card-playing gambling among 26 the peasants of Crete as a significant way of 27 unravelling the relation -- the kinship relations of 28 this mountain peasant village. And I've certainly 29 noticed it personally in my travels in that part of 30 the world as well. 31 MR. GRANT: Possibly, my lord, we should stop at this moment. 32 I'm going to another phase of this particular part of 33 evidence. 34 THE COURT: Yes. How are you getting along? 35 MR. GRANT: I'm \u00E2\u0080\u0094 well, I think I'm doing fairly well, if I 36 could just -- I think we've got through Dr. -- we've 37 covered about almost 60 pages and, my lord, I think 38 that in light of the pace, that I would anticipate 39 completing this whole -- all of this chapter on trade. 40 And if I can, I think what I would like to do is that 41 I would -- if I organize myself and I can severely 42 edit and -- deal with the other matter in less than 43 half an hour when we next sit, that is, that chapter 44 on feasting, and complete. I'd like to be able to 45 just do it very quickly and not the -- the bulk of the 46 material you will now have, and that's what I would 47 anticipate. In other words, I think I would 1232? R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 ultimately save time by doing that. 2 THE COURT: How long do you think you'll take to finish the 3 chapter period, the whole afternoon? 4 MR. GRANT: Yes, I will finish \u00E2\u0080\u0094 that's my objective, and I'm 5 going to now over the noon hour work, reorganize if 6 it's -- if I need to. I would complete the chapter on 7 trade this afternoon. 8 THE COURT: Well, I was going to suggest that, if necessary, we 9 come back at 1:00 -- I'm sorry, at 1:30, and that we 10 go until five. Could you finish it all then if we 11 worked until five, or you say if you had the week-end 12 you could finish in half an hour? 13 MR. GRANT: Yes. What I would do is I would reorchestrate myself 14 to do that, so I may be able to do that, but I think 15 that ultimately I would save time if I had time over 16 the week-end. 17 THE COURT: All right. Well, I think I'll make an offer you 18 can't refuse, Mr. Grant. We'll go as long as we have 19 to this afternoon to finish this chapter you're 20 talking about, and we'll give you an hour on Monday 21 morning from nine to ten. Yes, Monday morning from 22 nine to ten. 23 MR. GRANT: You would be available then? 24 THE COURT: From nine to ten, yes. We start in the Court of 25 Appeal at 10:15. 26 MR. GRANT: That I think would be \u00E2\u0080\u0094 that would give me the day 27 tomorrow to organize it. 28 THE COURT: You'll have to finish at ten o'clock sharp, and not 29 only do I mean that we will adjourn at that time, but 30 you'll have to be finished by that time. That's an offer I certainly can't refuse, my lord. All right. Is 1:30 convenient? Yes, that's fine. Madam reporter? All right. Thank you. 35 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court will recess until 1:30. 36 37 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCH RECESS) 38 3 9 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) 40 41 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. 42 THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Grant? 4 3 MR. GRANT: 44 Q Thank you, my lord. Page 470. 45 Doctor, I was referring you to the institution of 46 gambling you refer to on page 470. Among the Gitksan 47 or the Wet'suwet'en, is gambling referred to in the 31 MR. GRANT 32 THE COURT 33 MR. GRANT 34 THE COURT 12329 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 oral histories? 2 A Yes, it is. It's quite prominant. There's instances 3 of people losing everything they possess through 4 gambling, which sets off a whole chain of subsequent 5 actions in the family history. It's part of the 6 ongoing culture too. It's reflected in the name of 7 one of the high chiefs of the Gitseguekla village. 8 Q Who's that? 9 A Guxsan. His name means gambler, the gambler, and his 10 nax nox -- when he had his pole-raising feast he 11 performed the -- his spirit power, which is called nax 12 nox, and it involves throwing his gambling sticks down 13 in front of the other chiefs and challenging their 14 spiritual power with his spiritual power. And this 15 whole thing was acted out with each of the high chiefs 16 who came as guests in that event. 17 Q And you saw -- that's one of the feasts you 18 attended -- 19 A Yes. 20 Q -- and you saw? 21 A The whole institution astounded the fur traders who 22 thought people would be better guided saving their 23 possessions so they could go out hunting for furs, and 24 there was a lot of gambling around the forts, as I 25 understand it, in the Carrier regions, and also I know 26 from my research in Ontario, all the forts there 27 had -- people were gambling whenever they would -- it 28 would be -- it's a form of redistribution, as I've 29 argued here, where people can seek to make windfall 30 profits without the consequence of someone putting 31 demands on those profits through their ties of 32 kinship, or taking umbrage that they have suffered 33 from an imbalanced reciprocity. 34 Q Is -- within the context of kinship societies, is 35 gambling viewed as a negative feature of the society? 36 A You mean morally? 37 Q Well, in any way, in terms of anthropological terms? 38 A No, it's just -- it's treated as a feature of the 39 society and it's avidly entered into by all the actors 40 at one time or another in their life. 41 Q You \u00E2\u0080\u0094 42 A And it's integrated right into their public and 43 ceremonial lives as well as the day-to-day. 44 Q You described earlier that the power potlatches that 45 are referred to in some of the oral histories were 46 exceptions or aberrations, and that's why they were 47 set out in those oral histories. Is that the same 12330 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A A Q A MR. GRANT THE COURT MR. GRANT Q with the gambling events that are described in the oral histories? Well, I would surmise so, yes, when it comes to the level where the man has gambled away everything, all the clothes and the possessions of his whole house group, and whole village sometimes, the extended wilnat'ahl family. In some of the earlier adaawk there are two groupings sometimes in one village or sometimes across from each other on the other side of the river, where they were completely impoverished, and this would be considered an extreme. And you must -- in any of these things, you mustn't go to extremes, like any institution. And when people do go to extremes, the consequences are remembered as points in their oral history. Like the story of the revenge of the mountain goats for the lack of respect. Those things are kept in mind. Have you -- is gambling still conducted in the modern context among the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en? Yes, it is . And is it viewed negatively as a negative activity? Well, there's -- there's discussion on it always that people -- but it's not that there shouldn't be any gambling, it should be -- it should be engaged in under -- to a certain modicum. There should be a happy balance, but no, they -- there's no -- they're not opposed to gambling, the people in the villages, is my understanding, throughout that region. : Can I refer you to page 472 of your report? I'm sorry, I'm going to have to -- : 472? 471 initially, lord, it says: Half-way down that first paragraph, my \"These differences can be classified broadly into two types: those where the recruitment of wealth-producing labour follows strict laws of succession and inheritance,\" That's the first type. \"and...\" secondly, \"...those where only the outline of the system remains - where the ideological idiom of kinship may be preserved but the actual chiefly lineage has effectively broken the strictures of kinship 12331 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 reciprocity - \" 2 3 Then going to the next page, 472: 4 5 \"The Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en social 6 system conforms to the first type of chiefly 7 grouping, although undoubtedly its features 8 have fluctuated and changed through the 9 centuries, as the oral histories indicate.\" 10 11 And that's your conclusion with respect to those 12 two types of chiefly groupings; is that right? 13 A Yes. However, within -- the danger of making any 14 typology is there are always exceptions and usually 15 there will be an overlay of the features of one within 16 the other. So it always bears further investigation 17 and further analysis and further collection of data. 18 But a type of society or a type of institution is 19 generally identified by its dominant features, but it 20 may have some of the features of the other type within 21 it, but they're not of a dominant nature. 22 Q Now, is there any, within the Gitksan social system 23 and the Wet'suwet'en social system, is there any 24 aspects of the hierarchical situation of overarching 25 paramount chiefs? 26 A No, there are no overarching paramount chiefs, to my 27 knowledge. Are you speaking of today? 28 Q Today, yes. I'm saying in any aspect of the society. 29 A Well, within the houses, yes, certainly. 30 Q Yes. 31 A There's a hierarchy of authority and there are people 32 of higher statuses in one lineage perhaps than -- than 33 in another. 34 Q Okay. What -- is that the same with the Wet'suwet'en 35 and the Gitksan? 36 A Yes, it is. Some -- to some extent it can be extended 37 to the level of the whole clan with the Wet'suwet'en, 38 and they're more at home with having been -- having 39 one chief speak on behalf of the whole clan. 40 Q Okay. On the bottom of 472, or half-way down, you 41 refer to: 42 43 \"The Madeek Ada'ox tells of the forays of the 44 Kitselas people by canoe, to Kitimat, 45 Kitlobe and even Bella Bella in ancient 46 times (p.64 to 78), and later in wars with 47 the coastal Tsimshian, which were said to 12332 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 have occurred over several centuries (p. 2 184) . \" 3 4 That reference is -- that is one of the references 5 that you refer to and that is the Madeek Ada'ox that 6 we filed this morning? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Exhibit 899. 9 And your conclusion is on page 473, that: 10 11 \"The Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en social 12 system possessed a degree of hierarchy 13 before the coming of Europeans, but the 14 hierarchy was not consolidated into a 15 self-perpetuating aristocracy.\" 16 17 And that is your conclusion; is that right? 18 A Yes. And this was explained to me by informants again 19 and again, that no house can -- is allowed to have a 20 status higher than other houses, but you in the course 21 of paying off your debts and doing it with regularity 22 and with proper decorum, you can rise to the level of 23 a high -- what a high chief should really be. So it's 24 a question of each generation being assessed against 25 the history of their -- of their house and the history 26 of their peers, but not everyone can fulfil the equal 27 status that is ascribed to them. They have to achieve 28 as much of that as they can within the course of their 29 lifetime. 30 Q Now, you state -- you go into the next session of gift 31 and reciprocity, and you describe just before that -- 32 this is at the bottom of page 473 and going to 474: 33 34 \"To understand the normative principles which 35 govern this process, and which militate 36 against social class formation over the 37 generations, it is important to examine the 38 nature of gift-giving which is central to 39 the reciprocal feast system.\" 40 41 And this is the reason you begin to deal with the 42 gift and reciprocity; is that right? 43 A Yes. 44 Q One term that I just wanted to be -- you referred to, 45 which is prestations. It's in that first paragraph 46 under that gift of reciprocity. 47 A Yes. 12333 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE THE MR. Q What do you mean by that? A This is a term that's in use by anthropologists as an analytical term for analysing the two sides of the relationship in relation to a gift. It simply refers to the thing that is given. So the -- you have your original gift and that entails a set of expectations in the part of the receiver, and when the receiver returns he doesn't return a gift, he returns a different prestation. So it's a generic -- it's a general term for the thing given in a transaction. Q Okay. A Two-way transaction. GRANT: Can you go to the top of 475, please? COURT: Does it have to be the same thing when you're giving a gift back? Is it the same thing, or can prestations refer to exchanged gifts; one gives a cow and the other gives a horse? WITNESS: They're both prestations in both instances, yes. COURT: In that case there's two prestations? WITNESS: Yes. Yes. COURT: What's the difference between a prestation and a gift? WITNESS: Well, the gift refers to the initial thing that is given, and then you may have a series of transactions flowing between the two people, but the gift is the initial thing that kicks it off. It's a noun instead of an adverb. Sorry? It's a noun. It's a noun. Yes. COURT: WITNESS: COURT: WITNESS: GRANT: Q On the top of the next page you state: A \"In the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en system the receiving side ensures that it repays 'with interest' or 'tops off the prestation it has received, and it does so with something extra, thereby eliminating the possibility of prestige accruing to the creditor.\" Now, can you explain that by example within the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en system? Well, when -- when one chief gives another chief a gift and it's not repaid, then the giver is a creditor of the receiver. And the receiver, to get out of debt, a social debt, so to speak, will find the correct opportunity to make a repayment and he'll give 12334 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 something a little extra. It's like the baker's dozen 2 concept at the bakery and -- well, one example, when 3 the chiefs who are going to host a feast invite their 4 fellow chiefs as guests, they send out a party called 5 the Te'ts, that's T-e-'-t-s, and the Te'ts goes out 6 and invites the chief -- this is all done standing in 7 the chief's house. Nobody sits down. It's a very 8 formal relationship. Sometimes today a younger chief 9 will try to do it by telephone and will be censured. 10 They go there and in some cases they actually 11 spread-eagle down over the chief who's going to be 12 invited. 13 Q Right. 14 A I've seen that. And the chief who is being invited 15 will say whether -- whether he's coming or not. 16 Either he says right away or he says \"I'll let you 17 know tomorrow or shortly.\" And to register that he's 18 going to arrive, he gives usually these days $20, 19 something like that. When he gets to the feast, at a 20 certain period in the transactions there are all sorts 21 of things that go on there. 22 Q Yes. 23 A The host gives back the $20 to all the high chiefs, or 24 whatever the specific sum is, plus something a little 25 bit extra, two or three dollars, five dollars. But if 26 they were to give back $40, this would be considered 27 as shaming all these chiefs and really a non-U thing 2 8 to do. 29 THE COURT: Is that what Boas talked about in the gift of 30 blankets? 31 THE WITNESS: It's related, yes, but he's analysing what I call 32 the power potlatching. 33 THE COURT: Yes. 34 THE WITNESS: Where there would be literally thousands of 35 blankets exchanged. 36 THE COURT: And you would give an enemy a lot of blankets so he'd 37 have to give you more back? 38 THE WITNESS: To shame him, yes. To show that \u00E2\u0080\u0094 to work out 39 the status between you. 4 0 MR. GRANT: 41 Q That's actually what I was just going to lead to. The 42 description you gave of the Te'ts, for example, where 43 you give a little bit more to top it off, is there a 44 distinction between that and the power potlatches 45 where -- that you've described earlier? 46 A Well, the power potlatches, you're giving all you can 47 to -- and then you -- at the end the giver is 12335 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 challenging the receiver to up the ante. So you're -- 2 if you want to challenge the other person's material 3 wealth and accumulation, then that's the sort of route 4 that is taken. 5 Q And that's the situation that Boas was describing? 6 A Yes. 7 Q I'd like to take you to page -- I'm sorry, do you have 8 something more than that? 9 A No, it's really to do with feasting I guess. 10 Q Okay. On page 477 -- well, I guess I have to start on 11 476 to put this in context, Doctor. It says: 12 13 \"Fourth, the chiefly exchanges are 14 elaborated by the extra giving, receiving 15 and counter-giving of the finest foodstuffs 16 and items of clothing and adornment which 17 the chief's kin group and in-laws have been 18 able to secure for the occasion. From the 19 available evidence, most of the exchange of 20 goods across the region in pre-contact times 21 was initiated and usually carried out by 22 means of such ceremonial giving. As Gunther 23 notes in reference to a Nootkan chief that 24 Captain Galiano encountered in the 1780's: 25 26 'He offered to entertain the visitors if 27 they would come to his village, but he 28 did all his trading under the guise of 29 exchanging presents. This was a 30 frequent practice among the important 31 chiefs, who said they did not want 32 common barter but offered the commanders 33 of expeditions presents, usually of sea 34 otter skins, and in return expected 35 gifts of value.'\" 36 37 A \"Of equal value\". 38 Q \"Expected gifts of equal value\". Thank you. 39 Then back to what you state: 40 41 \"The ceremonial giving itself did not, 42 and does not constitute economic exchange 43 and distribution. It is a public ceremonial 44 celebration of social relations, kinship 45 positions, political process, ranking and 46 the demonstration of House and clan honour.\" 47 12336 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 And there you're referring in all parts, except 2 your reference to Capital Galiano, to the Gitksan and 3 Wet'suwet'en; is that right? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Now, are there -- I would like to ask you, is there 6 any cross-cultural examples, other than what Captain 7 Galiano says, of similar relationships with other 8 groups? 9 A Oh, certainly. It was the whole medium of interaction 10 between the British and the Iroquois, for example, and 11 all the surrounding peoples in Eastern Canada and the 12 Eastern Seaboard of the States. 13 Q Okay. 14 A The same sort of ceremonial gift-giving initiated and 15 sealed all the agreements. 16 Q Now, I referred you this morning to Brown's account -- 17 A In fact, the -- sorry, but the events that led to the 18 Royal Proclamation of 1763 were instigated or were 19 precipitated to a large degree when the British 20 decided to stop this reciprocal gift-giving with their 21 Indian allies who -- after the cessation of 22 hostilities with the French. And it had been a whole 23 way of trade and interaction for a very long time 24 around the Great Lakes and suddenly it stopped, and it 25 precipitated -- it was one of the main factors 26 precipitating the Pontiac Rebellion of 1763. 27 Q And that was part of what you were looking at when you 28 did your Iroquois work? 29 A Yes. Yes. 30 Q Now, you recall this morning that I referred you to 31 the William Brown report of 1826, Exhibit 895, and 32 there was a description there where Smogelgem was 33 dissatisfied with his -- the goods he had. Is that 34 connected to this or analogous to? 35 A Oh, certainly. It's a description of a giving and a 36 receiving and a returned prestation. The trader 37 gave -- or the Indians gave furs and the trader 38 responded with trade goods, but then he found out the 39 following day it wasn't quite what they expected and 40 the process had to be -- had to be altered. The 41 perceptions of the native people on what was an 42 equivalent value was different from his perceptions 43 related to similar trade in other parts of the Hudson 44 Bay Company's realms at that time. 45 Q Okay. Can you go to page 479 of your report where you 46 talk -- where you refer to Oberg. Oberg was an 47 anthropologist as well, wasn't he? 12337 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 A Yes. 2 Q And maybe you can just keep that other reference open. 3 I think this is where you may refer back to it. 4 5 \"Oberg describes the type of interpeople 6 bargaining on the Northwest Coast as 7 follows: 8 'Exchanges were made publicly, 9 accompanied by a great deal of haggling. 10 Each side set its prices high and then 11 came down to a level where exchange was 12 possible. Lesser traders and 13 representatives of other house groups 14 bartered on the side. The whole 15 proceedings smacked very much of a 16 market place. When the party was small 17 and the house chief bartered for the 18 group as a whole, his every act was 19 carefully watched by his kinsmen. Quite 20 often a shrewd old woman was taken along 21 who kept a check on exchange values. 22 The two leaders would call out the 23 values of the goods to be exchanged in 24 rotation and, when the price suited the 25 group, a shout would go out signifying 26 that exchange was agreeable at that 27 point.\" 28 29 And there he's talking about the Tlingit; is that 30 right? 31 A He's talking about the trading that the Coast Tlingit 32 did with the adjacent Athabaskans. 33 Q Okay. Then you state: 34 35 \"Even the bargaining process held 36 expectations similar to those of 37 gift-giving. The giver did not seek the 38 highest price possible so much as he 39 expected to be recompensed with a greater 40 amount of value than he had given. This led 41 to misunderstandings between the early 42 Hudson Bay Company factors and the Native 43 peoples. The European traders assessed the 44 furs in terms of the 'going rate' that the 45 market would bear while the Native peoples 46 expected that they would be recompensed 47 according to the etiquette of repaying a 1233? R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A MR. GRANT THE COURT MR. GRANT THE COURT MR. GRANT Q A MR. GRANT Q greater value at the risk of causing insult.\" And that's your opinion, that latter part I've read? Yes. And is that where you are referring, for example, to the description of William Brown? Yes. I just note that that's referenced at Exhibit 895, pages 17 to 19, my lord. 895, pages 17 to 19? Yes. Thank you. That's tab 87. Now, you make reference on the top of 480 to another reference of William Brown. It's the same William Brown? Same William Brown, I believe from his diary. Okay. Page 480. You refer again to Oberg on page 481, and there you -- Oberg states that: \"'The great man...'\" -- with reference to the Tlingit. \"'...was not a successful fisherman or hunter as was true of the Eskimo or the Athapaskan of Northern Canada, but a man who used these goods not for immediate consumption, but exchanged them for such things as slaves and coppers which were given away at potlatches. He was eminent not because he was rich in food, but because he had acquired honour through the distribution of goods derived from food.' Oberg here reveals...\" -- this is your statement. \"Oberg here reveals the two influences which are blended in the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en cultures - coast and inland - in a manner which is at the once hierarchical and egalitarian, that involves both the 12339 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 sectional maximization of benefits and the 2 reciprocal obligations of each and every 3 House.\" 4 5 I wonder if you could explain those last two 6 phrases in your conclusion there, the \"maximization of 7 benefits and the reciprocal obligations of each and 8 every house.\" 9 A Well, it's -- I'm referring to the structure of 10 relations within the houses and between the houses. 11 You have the hierarchical structure within the house, 12 and the ideology of reciprocal relations between the 13 houses. In the quote above, you have -- from Oberg, 14 discussing the house system of the Tlingit, in his 15 last line he explains, to me anyway, how this whole 16 system of power potlatching evolves out of the 17 reciprocal giving of food in the conventional feasting 18 system. 19 Q Now, I'd like to refer you to page 482, the Gitksan 20 and Wet'suwet'en trade, and you start by referring to 21 Wolf. And this is Eric Wolf that you're referring to 22 here? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And if you could -- the black book, that is the latest 25 document, I think that the -- well, I'll go through 26 it. This is an excerpt from that book; is that right? 27 A Yes. 28 Q And the first part is with respect to Wolf's concepts 29 of kin-ordered mode of production in which he analyses 30 the kinship-ordered modes of production which you've 31 already referred to? 32 A Yes. 33 Q And you relied in part upon him and his analysis in 34 your own research? 35 A Yes, I did. 36 THE COURT: What's the date of this book or paper? 37 THE WITNESS: I believe it's \u00E2\u0080\u0094 it's in the cited bibliography. 38 THE COURT: All right. Thank you, fine. 3 9 MR. GRANT: 40 Q 1982 University of California. 41 Now, I'd like to refer you to page 185. Do you 42 have that? 4 3 A I do. 44 Q Okay. Now, I'm going to read from the article, my 45 lord, because there's more in the article than was in 46 this report that I think is relevant. The first 47 statement is that: 12340 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 \"The newcomers quickly realized that 3 they were dealing with trade partners as 4 astute and calculating as any they had 5 encountered on their voyages. They had, in 6 fact, entered an area of extensive native 7 trade.\" 8 9 Now, this is his comment with respect to the 10 Northwest Coast; is that right? 11 A That's right. 12 Q During the fur trade era? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And do you agree with that opinion and adopt it as 15 your own? 16 A I agree with that opinion, particularly as it applies 17 to the coastal -- the coastal peoples. 18 Q Okay. What about with respect to the Gitksan and/or 19 the Wet'suwet'en? Now, of course, I'm not -- of 20 course the early ships didn't come there. I'm saying 21 would it be fair to say that the Gitksan were trade 22 partners as astute as any -- as the Europeans would 23 have encountered on their voyages? 24 A I don't think so, from that citation of William Brown, 25 for example. 26 Q Yes. 27 A The people were preoccupied with another evaluation 28 system than that of turning a profit through trade. 29 Q Okay. My lord, I -- then you go -- I'm sorry? 30 A They were demanding the dressed hides because they 31 were necessary or useful for them in their feasting 32 cycles rather than for turning a direct profit in 33 terms of maximizing goods that they could sell in 34 another market at a mark-up. 35 Q Okay. Now, this book \"Europe and the People Without 36 History\" analyses different aspects of that -- of 37 contact? 38 A It's -- it's an interesting account. It's written by 39 an anthropologist who has been studying all the 40 ethnohistorical work of the last 50-odd years in 41 relation to the effects of the expansion of the 42 European economy into the rest of the world between 43 1400 and 1800, in terms of what we now know or have 44 some idea of in terms of the social structure at the 45 time of contact in the different parts of the world, 46 and then how the various phases of the unfolding of 47 the European economy affected that social structure; 12341 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 such as the fur trade and the slave trade and 2 settlement and growth of industry. 3 Q Okay. 4 A Or beginnings of industry. 5 Q Now, Professor Wolf goes on to state, and I will quote 6 here from your report, which is the -- follows 7 immediately after the two sentences I've just read, 8 that: 9 10 \"'Since resources in the Northwest Coast area 11 were often localized, there had long been 12 trade between islanders and mainlanders, as 13 well as between coast-dwellers and inland 14 populations. Thus olachen ran only in 15 restricted areas, such as the Nass and 16 certain rivers and inlets along Queen 17 Charlotte Sound; people came from far away 18 with goods to trade for olachen oil, a 19 monopoly held by groups with rights held 20 over the fishing tracts. Hunting for land 21 animals was especially important in the 22 upriver communities. The northern Tlingit 23 made the Chilkat blankets woven with 24 mountain goat wool and cedar bark.'\" 25 26 THE COURT: That's C-h-i-1-k-a-t? 27 THE WITNESS: K-a-t. 2 8 MR. GRANT: 29 Q Capital C. 30 31 \"'...Copper was brought from the Copper River 32 area to the Chilkat and taken south from 33 there. The Haida and Nootka were especially 34 known for their fine canoes .... The islanders 35 supplied the mainlanders with dried venison, 36 seal oil, dried fish, shellfish, green stone 37 for tools, cedar bark, cedar bark baskets, 38 cedar wood for ceremonial artifacts, and yew 39 wood for bows and storage boxes. The 40 mainlanders furnished the islanders with 41 hides and furs, cloth and clothing, olachen 42 and olachen oil, cranberries, horned spoons, 43 baskets of spruce roots, and Chilkat 44 blankets ... The mainlanders also traded with 45 the Athabaskan speakers of the interior, 46 bringing cedar bark baskets, fish oil, iron 47 and shell ornaments to them and returning 12342 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 with hides, moccasins, thongs and placer 2 copper.'\" 3 4 A This is -- that citation is an abbreviation of the 5 whole passage in here which deals with the goods from 6 the whole of the B.C. and southern Alaskan coast. 7 Q That's that whole paragraph? 8 A Yes. 9 MR. GRANT: Oh, I see. It's a couple of paragraphs. Yes. 10 Possibly tab 3 could be marked as the next exhibit 11 number, my lord? 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 900. 14 15 (EXHIBIT 900: Tab 3, \"Europe and the People Without 16 History\", by Eric R. Wolf\") 17 18 MR. GRANT: I don't know if I win a prize or not. 19 THE COURT: I wouldn't push your luck too hard on that one. 2 0 MR. GRANT: 21 Q I almost closed up my notes. I suggest I was 22 rewarding myself. 23 Now, Doctor, you go on to say: 24 25 \"Trade networks between coast and 26 interior were much used in the fur trade 27 period for conducting barter and trade, and 28 transporting cargo. The oral histories 29 indicate that trails and river systems used 30 in this trade were used for regular 31 communication, social intercourse and the 32 exchange of goods prior to the advent of 33 Europeans. Even today members of House 34 groups still obtain coast foods for their 35 own consumption and to give away to friends 36 and neighbours and to people who live out of 37 the area. Most enduring, indigenous trade 38 in the region consisted of barter in 39 subsistence goods and equipment between 40 islands, the mainland coast, and the 41 interior. The Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en by 42 virtue of their location at the conjunction 43 of three major North American climatic and 44 biotic zones - coast, interior plateau and 45 boreal forest described in Chapter IV.4.a., 46 and located between the coastal and interior 47 peoples - were actively engaged in barter 12343 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. long before the arrival of the Europeans.\" And that is your conclusion with respect to the continuity of trade? A Yes. Unfortunately, many of these things don't show up in the archaeological record because of the acidity of the soil and the fact that they're made of organic materials that just don't last. It's consistent with all the other available source material. There have been some interesting finds in the Olympic peninsula where mud covered a large village for 700 years, and a lot of very fine cedar work and carved wooden work and skin and hide artefacts were preserved by that mud, give us some indication of the organic material at that period. Q Now, I go to 485 and a statement that you make there, fifth line down: \"Between 1876 and roughly 1960, much of the trade with coastal people took place during the weeks when cannery work brought Native groups together from all over the region.\" And here you're talking about work at coastal canneries; is that right? That's right. Now -- Where did you find that passage, Mr. Grant? I'm sorry, my lord, 485. Oh, all right. Thank you. Four lines down from the top. Yes. Thank you. A GRANT COURT GRANT COURT GRANT COURT GRANT Q Doctor, yesterday you described the annual seasonal round, and now you're talking about trade, and you refer to the fact here that the trade took place when cannery work brought native groups together. Canneries were developed after contact; is that right? A Canneries were developed after contact. Yes. Q What is your opinion as to the impact of the involvement in the coastal fishery and canneries on the annual seasonal round of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en? A Well, I would say that the cannery work is -- fits in to one of the slots in the seasonal round. It's analogous to the annual travel out of the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en area into the Nass and the 12344 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 Kitimat areas for the oolichan run, when they would 2 take in, according to the oral histories and peoples' 3 accounts and so on, they would take their local 4 specialties for -- to give as gifts to have the right 5 to fish. They just followed the same procedure when 6 people were drawn out to the coast to work for that 7 six weeks in the summer during the fishing season 8 putting up fish in the canneries in the Nass and in 9 particularly in the lower Skeena. 10 Q Well \u00E2\u0080\u0094 11 A It was -- sorry. 12 Q Can you comment whether the involvement of the 13 Gitksan -- the Wet'suwet'en were also involved in the 14 canneries; is that right? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Can you comment on whether the involvement of the 17 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en in the coastal commercial 18 fishery in the period you've described here, 1876 to 19 1960, had a detrimental effect on their social 20 structure and seasonal round? 21 A I don't think it would have much effect at all because 22 it's not disruptive of the basic flow of the -- of the 23 season, except that a portion of each family had to -- 24 had to find access to salmon if -- they had to either 25 divide their family members so that some stayed home 26 to put up salmon along the river, or else to get 27 permission around the lower river to do food fishing 28 in the times when they were not working in the cannery 29 or working with their fish boats. And that procedure 30 still goes on today and it fits in within the slot 31 when, before canneries, they would be gathered 32 together at their fishing sites along the river in 33 their territories. 34 Q Now, you state on the same page that: 35 36 \"One of the most important features...\" 37 38 This is the next paragraph, my lord. 39 40 \"...of trade for the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en 41 was, and is, occasioned by the annual spring 42 run of oolichan, on the Nass and Gardiner 43 Canal.\" 44 45 And then you cite as -- the contemporary concern 46 by Tenimgyet, now in evidence here, as an example. 47 Why do you conclude, other than that reference, that 12345 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A Q A MR. THE THE THE THE THE THE this was -- this was and remains one of the most important features of trade? You may want to take the historical statement first. Well, I've laid it out on one of the diagrams in here showing the flow of goods between the coast and the interior. Uh-huh. Very -- it's -- one of the nodules or the nodes of trade was the oolichan fishing grounds. Uh-huh. It funnelled in gift produce from the islands, the Queen Charlotte Islands, and the down coast islands, and the islands of the Alaskan Panhandle. It funnelled in produce from the northern part of the Alaskan Panhandle, such as copper and Chilkat blankets, all the cedar products and sea mammal products from the island belt. These all came into -- for trade and exchange to the oolichan -- main oolichan places. The same thing about the hides and the furs and the dried berries were brought down by the people by the box load on their backs when they -- that's -- it was an efficient system like a railway. You didn't have empty box-cars in either direction. People were lugging their gift foods when they went to put up their oolichan oil, and then they would come home with the oil on their backs, relaying their packs back and forth -- Okay. -- two and three loads at a time, so that they say they walked to the Nass three times before they got there and three times before they got home. That's reflected in the ethnographies as well as your own research? Oh, yes. Yes. And in the commission evidence of the elders and those land claim transcripts, and so on. I'd refer you to page 486 and I'll -- How far a walk is that if you're -- from Moricetown, first, and how would they go, down to Kitwanga? WITNESS: The route -- from Moricetown there was one trade route which went over -- went through the Gitseguekla Valley behind that big massif which is -- which Roche de Boule is the centre of. COURT: Yes. WITNESS: And then they would go from there to Kitwanga and Kitwancool and into the Nass. COURT: What would that be, 50 miles? WITNESS: It would be a little more than that. Q A Q A GRANT: COURT: 12346 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 THE THE THE THE THE THE THE MR. COURT: More than that? WITNESS: Yes. COURT: And you can walk with that kind of work 25 miles a day? WITNESS: Well, packing fairly heavy loads. I forget the amount of time. There is in the -- in Horetzky's accounts of the trails at the end of the century he does explain how many days it took. COURT: It would be a five or six-day walk probably? WITNESS: It would be, and then you have added days because of all the relaying of the weights. Yes. All right. Thank you. THE MR. COURT: GRANT: Q A COURT GRANT Q A Q A A Q A Q A Can you just refer to the map that you put in after page 496? However, I'd like to say one other thing, that the -- I don't think that most of the oolichan oil went directly by the -- on the feet of the Wet'suwet'en from Moricetown -- or to Moricetown. It went through, for the most part, through the Gitksan and then was traded, peoples. I see. It was a main item of trade between the two Now, if you -- However, when the -- when the Wet'suwet'en were at Hagwilget they did certainly make the journey to the Nass . There's an adaawk about that? Yes. And Jenness talks about his experiences of getting this information too. And I believe Johnny David talks about it in his commission. Okay. Can you refer to figure 9 there? Now, this is -- is this the same map as George MacDonald had in his article? Yes, it is . Have you -- With a few modifications. Okay. Can you explain those modifications? Well, I think that Dr. MacDonald put it together rather rapidly because I followed the listing of trails that he described and, for example, the Kitwancool trail, the first one, had no number, so I gave it number 0, which was -- is right on the map above where it says \"Kitwanga Fort\". There's a little circle with a \"0\". And there were a couple of others that I understood from the description, but were 12347 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 either not noted or noted wrong on the map. So I 2 think I've adjusted where it says number 19 and 20, 3 and maybe number 15, I can't remember, down by Port 4 Simpson. 5 Q So what you did was took appendix E, the description 6 which we've referred to earlier, my lord, of the 7 George MacDonald trails, you took that and then you 8 compared it with the map and you made corrections in 9 numbering to reflect -- 10 A I think with number 15 there's one numbering way up at 11 Meziadin Lake. 12 Q Yes. 13 A But this was a route down to Port Simpson, so I put a 14 15 down to that area. 15 Q So on your map there's two 15's, but the one -- 16 A I'd have to check that, but basically it's his map. I 17 just tried to make it consistent with his description. 18 Q Yes. 19 A And these anomalies are all cleared up in the version 20 of it that came out in the Canadian Historical Atlas. 21 Q Which has been filed? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And then you have -- on the top there is a mileage 24 chart and a kilometre chart of 20 miles is shown as -- 25 appears to be a half inch, there's a scale there, 26 which would indicate the distances between -- along 27 the trails? 2 8 A Uh-huh. 29 Q Now, can I take you back for a moment to page 486? 30 Now, here I'd like to refer you, you say at the top 31 there: 32 33 \"It is unlikely that oolichan grease 34 amounted to more than 5 % of the annual fat 35 intake of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en in 36 pre-contact times.\" 37 38 And that is your conclusion? 39 A Yes. 40 Q And you used the calculations that are found below in 41 appendix D, and in appendix D you narrate your 42 calculations? 43 A Yes, I did a rough estimate based on the -- the 44 specific gravity of pure fat and how much caloric 45 content it has and how to obtain a volume figure, a 46 thousand grams. The way it's done is that -- 47 THE COURT: Excuse me, haven't we been through all this? 12348 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 MR. GRANT 2 Q 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A 10 MR. GRANT 11 12 THE COURT 13 THE WITNE 14 15 THE COURT 16 MR. GRANT 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 21 22 A 23 Q 24 25 A 26 27 28 29 Q 30 A 31 32 Q 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 A 44 45 46 47 He had alluded to it. Just -- if you can just wait a moment, Doctor, I'd like you to go to appendix D. There was -- I just had referred to him -- just have very few questions about this. First of all, on page 2 there you say: It would require 55,000 boxes of grease. Should that read 45,000? Yes, that should read 45,000 boxes of grease. : That's a typographical error. And then the second point I have -- : Still phenomenal? 3S: It's still phenomenal, yes, but not quite as phenomenal. : Yes. Yes. That doesn't change your opinion at all? No. And then you say -- you utilized analysis of specific gravity which were published and which other anthropologists have used; is that right? Yes. Yes. And those include, as well as Dr. Richard Lee, they include I believe it's Dr. Rappaport? Dr. Rappaport has used his caloric count and analysis in his work in New Guinea among the Tsembaga, T-s-e-m-b-a-g-a, in a book called \"Pigs for the Ancestor\". And he's a renowned anthropologist? He's the president of the American Anthropological Association. Okay. And the only other question I have from this, Doctor, is that in the bottom of page 658, you say this would entail -- after you explain how much were carried -- this would entail something like 4,000 boxes of grease carried inland from the Nass and the Gardiner Canal by the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en annually; roughly half of which would be traded and given as gifts to easterly neighbours. Now, my question to you, Doctor, is why do you say that roughly half of that would be traded and given as gifts to easterly neighbours? Well, I have no hard facts in relation to the distant past, but from asking my informants in the community and observing what they do today, and how -- asking them how much of their -- the grease that they have in the family they give away, and where it goes. I 12349 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 think -- I'm just arguing from the present on this 2 one. 3 Q Okay. But then you -- so today about half of it is 4 given away or bartered? 5 A Yes. Yes. 6 Q Okay. And that appendix forms part of your opinion 7 doesn't it? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Appendix D. Okay. Can I refer you now to -- my lord, 10 I don't think it's necessary to read this, but I'd 11 like to refer you for reference to page 488, and the 12 section about starting, \"Traditionally, the Gitksan 13 who go to the Nass for oolichan are hosted by 14 kinsmen.\" 15 And you go on to describe that, Dr. Daly, in the 16 balance of that page, and you refer to and rely on 17 Jenness and also on certain of the adaawk which you've 18 cited; is that right? 19 A Which specific time period? Which part of the -- 20 Q Okay. You're -- maybe I should read it to you. 21 22 \"Traditionally, the Gitksan who go to the 23 Nass for oolichan are hosted by kinsmen.\" 24 25 This seems to be -- 26 A This is contemporary. 27 Q -- contemporary? 2 8 A Uh-huh. 29 Q 30 \"They give their local food specialties to 31 their hosts and receive in return certain 32 coast foods. Gitksan without kinship links, 33 and the Wet'suwet'en who travelled to the 34 Nass at this time of time would arrive in 35 groups and be formally met by Nishga chiefs, 36 who would come out onto the river ice as 37 these inlanders approached the Nishga 38 village.\" 39 40 In this you rely on Jenness; is that right? 41 A Oh, this is the period of roughly around contact or 42 the -- after the time that the Wet'suwet'en for the 43 most part had moved to Hagwilget due to the slide and 44 they were going down, according to Jenness, to engage 45 in the trade. The adaawk certainly talk about lots of 4 6 incidents and sometimes the people who went down from 47 Kitwancool and Kitwanga were very -- had their noses 12350 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. GRANT THE COURT MR. GRANT THE COURT MR. GRANT Q A Q A Q A Q put out of joint because they were not -- if they weren't closely connected by kinship ties, they were ascribed a host and they couldn't choose who they wanted to fish with and interact with while they were there, and that's recorded in the adaawks. Okay. Now, you state that: \"The Nishga took the initiative to welcome the Gitksan to their territory and to lodge them with allotted House groups. These Gitksan had no say as to whom they would have as their hosts. This sometimes led to a degree of animosity.\" And there you refer to one of the adaawk -- that's at tab 66, my lord, of the second document book. I won't refer to it, but you may want to note it there. 66? It's tab 66. Yes. Okay. So it would be Exhibit 896 66. \"The inlanders would reciprocate for the use rights to the river and to the grease-rendering sites, cooking stones and firewood. They gave their hosts foodstuffs, hides, horn spoons, and furs. Thereafter the Gitksan worked together with their hosts to harvest the oolichan. They also engaged in barter with other Nass visitors.\" And you've relied as well -- you've concluded that this is a historical event and also contemporary? It goes on today? Yes. And you've relied as well on Barbeau and Jenness; also on Boas for this? Yes. And Poudrier? Poudrier's account, yes. Okay. And in fact on 489 you refer specifically to Poudrier, and I just note that for reference to the court. On the top of 489 you rely on Alfred Joseph, Daly interview notes with respect to the Wet'suwet'en going to Kitimat, and also up to the Dean Channel. That's 12351 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 also referred to in his evidence, isn't it? 2 A Yes. Well, I'd seen the reference in Poudrier that 3 the -- what he called the Carrier people would come 4 down to the Kitlobe arm of the Gardiner Canal in the 5 Haisla area at the time of the oolichan and pack up 6 that very steep trail up to the plateau, the grease 7 from the -- that had been put up down there. And I 8 asked Alfred Joseph if this was the case, and he said 9 he had -- he confirmed it that many of the old people 10 had told him the same thing. 11 Q And page 490 after quoting Poudrier, you state: 12 13 \"This description indicates that the grease 14 was bartered from people to people, within 15 their own territories; that is, the more 16 inland peoples would journey to obtain the 17 product from their western neighbours - the 18 Gitksan going to the Nass and Kitimat, the 19 eastern Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en going to 20 such locations as Kitwancool, the Babine 21 going to Hagwilget, and sometimes, 22 Moricetown, and so on, eastward.\" 23 24 And that's what you were describing to his 25 lordship and that is your conclusion; is that right? 26 A Yes. And the same thing occurred between Bella Coola 27 and the Williams Lake area. 28 Q Okay. 29 A As recounted in the journals of Alexander McKenzie. 30 Q Okay. Now, in terms of your analysis of trade, I'd 31 like to turn to page 491. You also took into account 32 abundance of different foods or different values I 33 guess, goods, and you state there: 34 35 \"The abundance of reliable, easily 36 preservable salmon, and sweet, easily 37 preservable berries, as well as ungulate 38 hides, thongs and sinew, furs and dried game 39 have provided the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en 40 with their basic items of barter and gift 41 exchange with coastal people. Their central 42 position between the interior and coast has 43 put the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en into a good 44 and longstanding trade position. (Figure 5 45 shows my tabulation of a number of important 46 factors concerning the resource background 47 to the trade of the Gitksan and 12352 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 Wet'suwet'en, whose territories are in the 2 transitional zone between the North, Coast 3 and Interior Plateau biogeoclimatic zones.\" 4 5 And just the page before that you have a chart, 6 \"Figure 5, Pre-contact Skeena and Upper Fraser 7 Produce\", and there is your -- you drew up that chart; 8 is that right? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And in drawing up that chart, you've relied on, with 11 respect to the fish, Mike Morrell's opinion? 12 A Yes. 13 Q The game, Dr. Hatler? 14 A Yes. 15 Q The berries, Sybille Haeussler? 16 A Yes. 17 Q The optimum food-drawing Chilton and Haeussler? 18 A Chilton and Haeussler, yes. 19 Q The oolichan grease, the ethnographies, as well as the 20 oral histories? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And -- just a moment. 23 A The same for other grease. 24 Q Okay. And the obsidian, the archaeological -- 25 A And the reliable winter fish was Morrell too. 26 Q Okay. And the obsidian was the archaeological record? 27 A Yes. 2 8 Q Okay. And you show -- what you're endeavouring to 29 show on this chart is where there's available and 30 non-available goods? 31 A Uh-huh. 32 Q Now, then you've -- 33 A I've broken it down into coast, mountain, and interior 34 basically. 35 Q Okay. And the \"G-W transition\" is the Gitksan and 36 Wet'suwet'en? 37 A Yes. 38 Q Now, just going over two pages, there is a diagram and 39 this is based on the Haeussler availability of 40 berries, the berry atlas; is that right? 41 A Yes. And I've made the same division there in the 42 section on distribution. 43 Q Yes. 44 A On the left \u00E2\u0080\u0094 the left-hand \u00E2\u0080\u0094 left half of the 45 columns on \"Distribution\" are coastal or coast-like, 46 and the right half are the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en area 47 roughly, the different biogeoclimatic zones, and the 12353 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 breakdown of the species. It's all material from 2 Haeussler and is on -- is on the map that was done 3 from her work. There's some problems with the -- I'd 4 like to qualify in the tentative groupings on the 5 right-hand side. 6 Q Okay. This is the chart after page 491, my lord. 7 It's the berry distribution chart. Just a moment. 8 Now, there's tentative groupings that you have down on 9 the right-hand side and you said you'd like to qualify 10 that? 11 A Yes, I was loading my argument a bit because -- 12 MR. WILLMS: My lord, I object to those in toto because we know, 13 because we heard Miss Haeussler, that not only was 14 that evidence not tendered from her on sweetness or 15 sourness, but she didn't give any opinion at all about 16 drying capabilities of the berries. None. That part 17 of her report was explicitly taken out by Miss Mandell 18 in leading Miss Haeussler's evidence, so there is no 19 foundation whatsoever in the evidence, if all this 20 witness referred to was Haessler, for that evidence, 21 and it should all go. There's just no foundation for 22 it. 23 MR. GRANT: What is my friend saying when he says this should 24 all go? What are you referring to? 25 MR. WILLMS: Well, the column that you were just referring to 26 the witness, \"Tentative Groupings\", which he said he 27 relied on Haeussler. 2 8 MR. GRANT: 29 Q Well, I'd just like the witness -- I may well -- 30 that's what the witness -- I just want the witness to 31 explain now, and then we can deal with the objection 32 because, you know, I -- we may not even be in 33 opposition on this position if my friend would just 34 bear with me for a moment. 35 The reference to \"Tentative Groupings\", was that 36 based on Haeussler? 37 A No, I was -- I rather loaded the argument before -- 38 before I really considered the matter, and I tend to 39 agree with the objection because the berries in the 40 first -- of the first three berries, from the 41 perception of the people on the coast, there's no 42 problem with sweetness in their eyes. 43 Q Right. 44 A However, the one where -- which is marked sweet 45 berries in the middle, the huckleberry. 46 Q Yes. 47 A Sim maa'y or digee, d-i-g-e-e, and sim maa'y is s-i-m 12354 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 m-a-a-'-y, that is a highly sought-after berry for trade wherever it grows because it is noted for its sweetness all up and down the British Columbia coast. Q Okay. A And of course anyone who's tasted one knows that soap berry is not sweet at all. Q Right. So what you're saying, basically, is that his lordship should disregard that last column -- A Yes. Q -- in considering that chart? A Yes. MR. GRANT: Okay. That's exactly what I was getting to when my friend jumped in, my lord. MR. WILLMS: I was just trying to help my friend by cutting it, my lord, but he can take his time. THE COURT: I've drawn a line through it. It's as good as striking something from the record. MR. GRANT: Q A Q A Q A A Q A Just -- I just would like to ask you about two of the species, the huckleberry and the soap berry in terms of -- based on your research, the significance they have as examples for trade and trade patterns. Well, they grow in the areas of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en. They don't -- basically they don't grow on the coast. Yes. And they're highly prized in both areas, so from that you can surmise that they're an item of trade in terms of foodstuffs. Okay. And they're -- on the coast as well when there's a feast or potlatch, they're considered a respectable thing to serve your guests because you can froth them up like whip cream. Now, you refer on the next page, 492, to how chiefs -- and you rely here on Tenimgyet's evidence as well as other -- They're very particular about the quality of the berries they eat. And they -- and the quality that they bring into the feast hall? Yes. And they make fun of each other's berries behind their backs too. Well, some people are known to have high quality berries, but if the host doesn't give berries that are considered to be up to scratch, there's talk about it. Okay. Now, you state there that -- the description on 12355 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 the top of page 492: 2 3 \"Their description of the berry qualities is 4 not unlike that of the vintner discussing 5 wines.\" 6 7 And then you refer to Tenimgyet's difficulties 8 with respect to certain berries? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Now, just at the bottom of that page you say -- state: 11 12 \"The summer village areas of the 13 Gitksan, Wet'suwet'en, like those of the 14 neighbouring Tahltan and Carrier-Sekani are 15 highly favourable for the rapid and 16 efficient drying of foodstuffs to be 17 preserved for winter storage and trade, 18 especially for trade with the more moist 19 coastal areas.\" 20 21 And here this is partly based on what has been 22 described to you and what you have observed -- 23 A Yes. 24 Q -- at the smokehouses? 25 A And also I have in mind such reports as that Heller 26 and Scott one I mentioned this morning, that in 27 certain years on the coast the conditions can be the 28 same as the interior. In other years they can have 29 disastrous wet summers and nothing dries, so -- 30 Q Okay. And you quote Heller and Scott in fact on the 31 next page, and you rely on that. And Heller and 32 Scott, what are they? What's their fields? 33 A They're nutritionalists. 34 Q Okay. And then you go to page 493. You state that: 35 36 \"The evapotranspiration rates of the 37 Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en territories, thus have 38 repercussion for the longstanding Gitksan 39 and Wet'suwet'en trade in foodstuffs with 40 coastal peoples.\" 41 42 And here you're relying upon evapotranspiration 43 rates as described by -- 44 A By Chilton. 45 Q By Chilton in his report? 46 A Uh-huh. It's just a general guide-line for the -- for 47 the difference in the products between coast and 12356 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 Q 3 4 5 A 6 Q 7 8 A 9 MR. GRANT 10 THE COURT 11 MR. GRANT 12 THE COURT 13 MR. GRANT 14 THE COURT 15 MR. GRANT 16 THE COURT 17 MR. GRANT 18 Q 19 20 A 21 Q 22 23 24 A 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 Q 32 A 33 34 35 36 Q 37 A 38 Q 39 40 A 41 Q 42 43 44 45 A 46 Q 47 interior. Okay. Now, table -- figure 7, which immediately follows 493, this is a rough map of the region; is that right? Very rough. And you placed the locations of villages in your handwriting in circles, right? Yes. And then you have -- Are you at page -- 4 93, my lord. Oh, yes. All right. There's a map immediately following it. After 493? Yes. It's \"Figure 7, Local Specialty Products\". Yes, I have it. Then you have listed certain species or goods under each of these names? Yes. And this is a summary which you describe in the following pages of certain specialties of certain villages? Certain specialties. It's certainly not exhaustive, but it gives some idea of the specialties in the local regions for which people were famous in the area. And these would be -- the things that they would produce in these different villages were the things that they would hold high when they came into the feast hall and they would announce the territory that it came from. Yes. And when they were away from home, they would just have to say the name of their village and people would know because the degree of specificity diminishes the farther away from home you go. Yes. Or the level of generality increases. Okay. On page 494 you refer to the Tsimshian adaawk as a basis for part of this information? Yes. And then you refer in the second paragraph to Boas and, in fact, you reiterate what Boas describes through pages 494 and 495, and you rely in part on Boas' ethnography? Yes. Yes. Now, going to your figure 8, Doctor, after page 495, here you have circled certain species with arrows or 12357 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 certain goods with arrows going between. Do each of 2 these names and circles refer to different groups, 3 that is, different aboriginal groups? 4 A Pretty well they do, yes. 5 Q Okay. Could you indicate for his lordship which of 6 the groups -- which of the circles would reflect the 7 goods, the trade goods, of the Gitksan? 8 A Well, they're the two moccasin-shaped figures right in 9 the middle. The first one starts \"dried salmon\", and 10 the one below it \"hides, pelts, moccasins, bags\". 11 Q And which one is the Wet'suwet'en? 12 A The lower one is the Wet'suwet'en, and the upper one 13 is the Gitksan. 14 Q Okay. 15 A And the oolichan, just to the left of them, is the 16 lower Nass-Nishga area, and the oolichan below that is 17 the Gardiner Canal around Kitimat. 18 Q Okay. 19 A And then you have the Haida out offshore. You have 20 the coastal island Tlingit up where it says \"seal, 21 seal oil\" up in the margin, and where the \"copper\" is 22 it's the copper Indians and Ayak from the top of the 23 Panhandle. And the Chilkat blankets come from the 24 Chilkat-Tlingit people of the -- of the Chilkat and 25 Taku River region. 26 Q Okay. Now, the arrows indicate the trade -- back and 27 forth trade between the different groups? 28 A Yes. 2 9 Q And \u00E2\u0080\u0094 30 A I didn't put any arrows in for the obsidian because it 31 flowed into many of these areas over a long long 32 period of time. 33 Q Okay. And \u00E2\u0080\u0094 34 A And we don't actually know the actual routes of who it 35 went to, although there are some references by 36 informants and people I've talked to that suggest that 37 it was still being collected and passed on into 38 Wet'suwet'en and Gitksan areas 100 or 150 years ago. Now -- Should we take a short adjournment? Certainly, my lord. All right. Thank you. 43 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court stands adjourned for a 44 recess. 45 4 6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR AFTERNOON RECESS) 47 3 9 MR. GRANT 4 0 THE COURT 41 MR. GRANT 42 THE COURT 1235? R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 I hereby certify the foregoing to be a true and accurate transcript of the proceedings herein to the best of my skill and ability. Tanita S. French Official Reporter 12359 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 1235? R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED AFTER A SHORT RECESS) 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. 5 THE COURT: Mr. Grant. 6 MR. GRANT: Thank you, My Lord. 7 Q With respect to figure eight, the -- all of the arrows 8 going in towards the oolichan and coming out from the 9 oolichan for the Nass that you referred to there, is 10 this what you were referring to His Lordship earlier 11 as -- 12 A That's what I mentioned earlier, yes. It's also very 13 evident in the adaawks, the amount of fighting and 14 friction over that region through history has been 15 considerable. Its been a focal point for all sorts of 16 animosities and competitions. 17 THE COURT: Which area are you talking about? 18 THE WITNESS: The big circle where it says \"oolichan\" just above 19 where it's written Skeena. 2 0 THE COURT: Yes. 21 MR. GRANT: 22 Q Now, after the -- on page 496 it starts after the 23 reference to figure 9, which you have already 24 described, you state that: 25 26 \"Sinuous trails linked pre-contact Native 27 communties across the breadth of northwest 28 British Columbia and southeast Alaska. 29 These trails formed a conduit for trade and 30 communications between the different native 31 villages and settlements. The trails are 32 old. George Chismore spent a summer 33 furlough from the U.S. Army exploring the 34 trail up the Nass Valley and across to 35 Kispiox in 1870. His observations as to the 36 age of the trail are interesting.\" 37 38 And you quote Chismore. 39 40 \"In one place the trail leads over the top 41 of a hill denuded of soil and is worn deeply 42 into the solid granite by the feet of 43 succeeding generations. 44 45 George McDonald also states these trails 46 were very old. 47 12359 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 The Kitwancool trail was begun in 2 prehistoric times but it is impossible to 3 say when. As a hunting trail it is 4 undoubtedly many thousands of years old, but 5 as a major trade route it probably came into 6 importance between two or three thousand 7 years ago.\" 8 9 And you have relied on these as well as other 10 authors. Chismore is for your ethnohistorical 11 analysis of the time depth of trails and also as well 12 George MacDonald's analysis? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Now, I would like to refer you to page 498 with 15 respect to the trails, where it said: 16 17 \"In 1870 the Nass-Kispiox trail was much 18 used, even in the summer months, long after 19 the annual oolichan run. Chismore states: 20 21 The trail was a constant source of interest. 22 Daily we passed parties bending under their 23 burdens, or met others hurrying back to 24 seek a load. This highway is broad and 25 clear and very old.\" 26 27 And this would be one of the main oolichan trails? 28 A Yes, that's -- after the one between Kitwancool and 29 the Nass, this is probably the most used in that 30 region, the one between Kispiox and the Nass. They 31 actually converge at the junction of the Cranberry 32 River, as you can see roughly the spot from Highway 37 33 today. 34 Q Okay. 35 36 \"This description also includes the 37 trail-side facilities for the freight 38 packers who will be carrying freight for 39 gold prospectors in the Omineca area, as 40 well as produce for local use: 41 42 Sweat-houses were built at frequent 43 intervals, where with a cup of water and a 44 few heated stones, the tired native might 45 assuage his aching limbs by a steam bath. 46 Rude huts of bark afford shelter to him who 47 needs it, and large sheds built of the same 12360 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 material mark the spots where different 2 tribes meet to trade.\" 3 4 Then you say: 5 6 \"It is appropriate to conclude this 7 description of the grease trails with 8 Chismore's description of Native design and 9 constructed bridges, of which there were 10 several in Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en 11 territories at the time of contact.\" 12 13 And Chismore was an eyewitness to these bridges; 14 is that right? 15 A That's right. 16 Q 17 Chismore describes the bridge he saw and 18 crossed at the confluence of the Cranberry 19 and Nass River (which was also described by 20 Horetzky in 1872) . The construction 21 Chismore describes is not unlike that 22 employed by the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en to 23 establish canyon-side fishing platforms. He 24 describes the bridge he crossed on the 25 Cranberry River when he travelled the 26 Kispiox: 27 Bridges span the wider stream; one, a 28 suspension bridge crossing the Har-keen.\" 29 Do you know where he is referring to there? 30 A This is -- this is -- I think this is the one at the 31 Cranberry junction to the Nass. 32 Q Okay. 33 34 \"... long ago, replacing a still older one, 35 has a clear span of 92 feet. It is located 36 at a point where opposing cliffs form 37 natural abutments, and is thus constructed. 38 From each bank two tapering logs, parallel 39 to each other - some 10 feet apart and with 40 points elevated to an angle of 10 degrees 41 are pushed out over the stream towards each 42 other as far as their butts will serve as a 43 counterpoise. Then two more are shoved out 44 between the first, but nearer together and 45 almost horizontal. The ends on shore are 46 then secured by piling logs and stones upon 47 them. Then a man crawls out to the end of 12361 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 one of the timbers, and throws a line to another in the same position opposite. A light pole is hauled into place, lashed securely and that arch completed. The three remaining sets of timbers are treated in the same manner. The upper and lower arches are then fastened together by poles, cross-pieces put in, footplank laid, and handrail bound in proper position to steady the traveller in crossing the vibrating, swaying structure. No bolt, nail or pin is used from first to last. Strips of bark and tough, flexible roots form all the fastenings.\" THE COURT: Where did you say Har-keen is? THE WITNESS: It's across the \u00E2\u0080\u0094 it's on the Cranberry River just very close to its junction with the Nass. So that's north of Kitwanga some ways up the road, about half an hour drive up the road. THE COURT: Yes. MR. GRANT: Q Now, with respect to this photograph, which is Exhibit 122 from the Madeline Alfred document book, can you -- you have said that the bridge is analagous to the fishing platforms. Can you explain that, what you are referring to for His Lordship? THE COURT: I'll come down. THE WITNESS: This is a fishing platform, I believe, at Moricetown Canyon, but the platform, it sticks here and it is cantilevered and braced here behind where the fish trap basket is. You would have this structure on both sides of the canyon, and they would push out poles from either side and lash them across and then build the superstructure. But it was this cantilever effect which he thought was quite -- he was quite impressed by it, that it was same the basic principles as bridge building in the European world of the 19th century. MR. GRANT: Just a moment, My Lord. I'll leave it, My Lord. I may come back to one photograph, but I will just leave it for a moment. Q The next section on page 500, doctor, relates to the exchange between the Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en. I would just like to quote you your opinion there, where you state: 12362 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 \"The frontier between Gitksan and 2 Wet'suwet'en has been remarkably peaceful 3 over a very long period. In many ways this 4 testifies to the balanced nature of the 5 trade within the region. Both peoples 6 utilize similar ecologial niches; both 7 occupy choice positions vis-a-vis coast and 8 inland trade, and while both peoples share 9 the salmon resources of the upper Skeena 10 system, their respective hunting territories 11 fan out from the mainstem rivers in opposite 12 directions. Thus, when the people complete 13 their salmon harvest and processing, and 14 turn to their hunting grounds, the 15 possibility of conflicts developing over 16 access to land are minimized.\" 17 18 Now, you have described -- this is your conclusion 19 that this is a peaceful frontier between these two 20 peoples? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And is there any evidence in the oral histories or any 23 other references that -- 24 A Well, there is surprisingly little discussion in the 25 Kungax songs of the Wet'suwet'en or the adaawk of the 26 Gitksan of animosities between the two peoples. 27 Q Uh-huh. On page 502 you state: 28 29 \"Transactions and agreements between the two 30 people are often conducted by consulting 31 with counterparts of one's own clan.\" 32 33 A I gave the example of the arrangement made at the time 34 of the slide on the Bulkley River, which effectively 35 blocked the salmon from getting up to Moricetown, and 36 it was an interclan arrangement. The Wet'suwet'en 37 delegated two chiefs to speak on their behalf, one of 38 them was a Frog, one of them was a Wolf, and they went 39 to speak to the Frog and Wolf chiefs of Gitanmaax who 40 they had had interaction with through the years, and 41 worked out an agreement for the use of Hagwilget. 42 Q Did you also -- you referred earlier in your evidence 43 to the example of Daniel Skawil and Knedebeas. 44 A Yes. 45 Q Is that another example? 46 A Cooperation within the same clan, yes, between the two 47 nations. 12363 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 Q Okay. You then say that: 2 3 \"Cultural difference provide for a certain 4 amount of goods exchange between the two 5 peoples.\" 6 7 My Lord, this is on page 502 as well. And there 8 do you -- you refer to an example of the eel described 9 by Art Matthews in his evidence. 10 A Yes. 11 Q Then you go on on the next page to indicate that: 12 13 \"Probably the greatest bone of contention in 14 terms of the exchange of goods between the 15 two peoples, however, has been access to the 16 oolichan fishery on the Nass. While the 17 Wet'suwet'en obtained some grease from 18 Kitimat and Kemano, and from Kimsquit on 19 Dean Channel, a far greater volume was to be 20 had on the Nass, or if need be, from the 21 neighbouring Gitksan, who obtained hides and 22 furs in exchange for oolichan grease which 23 they themselves obtained on the Nass or at 24 Kitimat.\" 25 26 Then you state: 27 28 \"The Wet'suwet'en appear to have been on 29 foreign territory when they visited the 30 Nass. Unlike the Gitksan, the Wet'suwet'en 31 had only formal trading relations with the 32 Nishga. Their Nass relations were not 33 generally reinforced by kinship and marriage 34 ties the way that Gitksan-Nishga relations 35 tended to be. Consequently, visits to the 36 coast were stressful, potentially dangerous 37 undertakings, as recounted by Jenness and by 38 Johnny David in his Commission Evidence.\" 39 40 A This is a common feature of -- in areas where there is 41 a transition between major ecological zones. The 42 Huron and the Iroquois had the same attitude towards 43 their surrounding people. They wanted to control the 44 access to the lucrative furs, both before and after 45 contact. They traded them down to the southern 46 states, and when the first Europeans came in they 47 fought tooth and nail against the Europeans going any 12364 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 further, because they had established an intermediary 2 role and wanted to, of course, maintain that trading 3 edge. And there was a certain degree of muted 4 middlemanship held, I think, by the Gitksan in 5 relation to the trade of the Wet'suwet'en and the 6 produce of the eastern Carrier and the Sekani people. 7 Q The next section is contact and proto-contact trading 8 monopolies. Now, My Lord, if I just could refer you 9 at the bottom of page 504, just for your reference, 10 where it says in that Frog Raven adaawk. Number 47 is 11 Exhibit 896-69, green book, and number 79 is Exhibit 12 896-84. 13 THE COURT: Thank you. 14 MR. GRANT: And one other correction, My Lord. The fourth line 15 on page 505 should read \"valid\" instead of a-l-i-d. 16 THE COURT: Thank you. 17 MR. GRANT: And then I would refer you for reference to page 18 505, that second paragraph, My Lord, but I am not 19 going to read it. You may wish to note it. 2 0 THE COURT: All right. 21 MR. GRANT: 22 Q In this section you -- and also, I'm sorry, My Lord, 23 page 556, that entire page. 24 In this section you deal with the -- what you have 25 already described about the coastal chiefs and the 26 power potlatches which you have already given evidence 27 of; is that right? 28 A Yes. And the expansion of aggressive trading. 29 Q In the coast? 30 A From the coast toward the interior. 31 Q Okay. Can you turn to page 507, please. You state 32 that: 33 34 \"As George MacDonald has argued, it appears 35 that the trade in European metal goods along 36 the grease trails preceded the European 37 explorers on the Northwest Coast by at least 38 a century.\" 39 40 And that is your opinion as well, is it? 41 A Yes. 42 Q And then you state that: 43 44 \"It is my opinion\" 45 46 Then you go on to make a reference that there will 47 be further proto-contact tempo of trade picked up 12365 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 momentum from eastern and southern influences as well, and that other writers are doing work on that field now; is that right? A This is a bit of a general sweeping statement. There is a certain amount of investigation going on now by Leyland Donald, who is a professor of anthropology in Victoria and some of his associates, onto the roots of the slave -- trading in slaves and captives, and the effects of the -- or repercussions of the Spanish being in Central America and California, and the early influence of the fur trade and in the American west, but there is not enough material being compiled to reach any sort of hypothesis even. Q There is not a hypothesis? A No. Q My Lord, I just ask if you could note that I asked Dr. Daly that question, that that second part of that first paragraph really shouldn't be regarded in terms of the report, as it's something that is not established in the field. He is just commenting on research that's being done in an ongoing way. THE COURT: Do you agree with that? THE WITNESS: I agree, yes. I was a bit too enthusiastic for the available facts. All right. Thank you. That passage starts \"It is my opinion\". Yes. You don't have to say anything more about it. It's your opinion that there is a possibility of finding further evidence. This would be consistent with what you found on the east coast? Yes. Oh, it certainly pertains to the northern snowball effect of the fur trade from east to west. Q Yes. A That had an effect from east to west. Q Right. A Just as the coastal trade had an effect from the west towards the east. Q Right. A But there is not enough data available for the effects coming up from the south and the southwest. Q Okay. Now, you state at the bottom of page 507: \"From the adaawk which relate events on the Tsimshian and Nishga coastal areas, we can deduce that when European trade began in the region it meshed with an indigenous process MR. THE COURT MR. FREY: GRANT Q A 12366 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 A 5 Q 6 7 A 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 Q 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 A 27 28 Q 29 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 34 35 36 Q 37 38 39 40 A 41 THE COURT 42 MR. GRANT 43 THE COURT 44 MR. GRANT 45 Q 46 47 of exchange.\" And that is your opinion? Yes. And you rely, as well as on the other sources, you rely on Eric Wolf, who comments on this in -- He doesn't just comment on it. He has assessed all of the -- or a large body of the work that's been done in this region. And I compared what he had done here with what he did on the fur trade in the Great Lakes, from my knowledge of that region, and it's pretty thorough work that he's done, and its certainly been well received in the anthropological journals, that book of his. Can you turn to 509. You state there -- this is the quote at the very bottom, My Lord, and it's the last part of that quote of Professor Wolf's: \"The Tsimshian under Chief Legaic at the Hudson Bay Company's Fort Simpson engrossed the trade on the upper Skeena with the Gitksan, who in turn controlled the trade with the Sekani.\" Now, the quote is the Sekani, but if that -- It more accurately would be with the Athabaskan people. Okay. So if that term was changed to trade with the Athabaskans, would that be your opinion? Yes. Okay. Legaix wasn't the only trader chief, but he was certainly the predominant one. There were other very powerful chiefs and rivals of his, both among the Tsimshian and the Nishga and the Tlingit. Now, on pages 510, 511 and 512 you explain this power potlatching feature that occurred at the coast that you have already described to His Lordship; is that right? Yes. I'm sorry, where did you say? Pages 510 through to 512, My Lord. Yes. And on page 513 you refer to \"Legyeex, Shakes and Haimas\", and this is part of the description that you had already described to His Lordship in evidence? 12367 R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 A Yes. 2 Q And it sets out your opinions. On page 516 you state 3 halfway down, My Lord, start at the beginning, you 4 state: 5 6 \"In my opinion the new reliance upon the fur 7 trade for economic well-being and political 8 strength occurred mainly on the coast among 9 those chiefs with access to the European 10 markets. Nonetheless, this commoditization 11 no doubt began to exert a certain pressure 12 on the remainder of the region to bend to 13 the will of the market possibilities. Be 14 this as it may, the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en 15 area was peripheral to competitive feasting 16 in the nineteenth century, particularly in 17 the eastern portion of the region. 18 Undoubtedly the mount of trading increased, 19 but the feasting relations did not. In 20 accord with the foregoing argument this 21 situation prevailed because the upper Skeena 22 area did not become a central area of 23 pre-settlement European trade which brought 24 a number of chiefs into competition and 25 interaction who generally did not interact 26 with one another.\" 27 28 Is that your opinion? 29 A Yes. And I would back up the early statement by 30 saying that there was, I think, an indicator that 31 these market relations to some extent were moving into 32 the region and being played out through conventional 33 or customary reciprocal relations between distant 34 chiefs through the development or spread of these 35 dancing societies, the winter dancing societies I 36 mentioned before. They were a form of ceremonialized 37 competition, and it was -- there was some evidence of 38 it among the Wet'suwet'en and among the Gitksan in 39 that period of time, but it certainly wasn't developed 40 the way it was in the middle of the coast and in the 41 south coast. 42 Q Can I just refer you to page 520. You state at the 43 bottom there: 44 45 \"Be that as it may, the Gitksan and 46 Wet'suwet'en territories were not on the 47 front line of European trade, although they 1236? R. Daly (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 were by no means out of touch with this 2 trade. However much the Gitksan and 3 Wet'suwet'en have engaged in the commodity 4 market by force of circumstance, they still 5 use the fruits of their labour - today, 6 measured in dollars - as the gifts and 7 payments they are bound to make to fulfill 8 their obligations in the feast hall, to pay 9 for their continuing ownership of territory, 10 whose control and use has been the basis for 11 regional barter and giftgiving for 12 millennia.\" 13 14 Is that your opinion? 15 A Yes, that's my opinion. 16 Q And with respect to the reference to millennia, you 17 are relying on the oral histories as well as the 18 archaeological records? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Now, My Lord, just -- I -- that last section I went 21 over quickly, not because I don't think that it's 22 relevant or important, but because Dr. Daly this 23 morning actually gave you a fairly detailed 24 description. I didn't think there was any need to 25 repeat it. 2 6 THE COURT: Well, it's here. 27 MR. GRANT: And it's there for you. I would now ask \u00E2\u0080\u0094 I would 28 be prepared now to adjourn, as I indicated it would -- 29 I can refocus on the last chapter. 30 THE COURT: Madam Reporter was hoping you would stay 'til 4 or 31 4:30. All right. Well then, we can finish in an hour 32 on Monday morning? 33 MR. GRANT: Yes, given that you have given me the day to review 34 this. 35 THE COURT: Yes. All right. 9 o'clock in the morning. Have a 36 pleasant weekend then. 37 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. 3 8 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:30 P.M.) 39 40 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO BE 41 A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE 42 PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE BEST OF MY 43 SKILL AND ABILITY. 44 4 5 LORI OXLEY 4 6 OFFICIAL REPORTER 47 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD."@en . "First page numbered the same as last page of previous document, although the pages are different."@en . "Trial proceedings"@en . "British Columbia"@en . "KEB529.5.L3 B757"@en . "KEB529_5_L3_B757_1989-02-25_01"@en . "10.14288/1.0019651"@en . "English"@en . "Uukw, Delgam, 1937-"@en . "Indigenous peoples--Canada"@en . "Oral history"@en . "Wet'suwet'en First Nation"@en . "Vancouver : University of British Columbia Library"@en . "Vancouver : United Reporting Service Ltd."@en . "Images provided for research and reference use only. For permission to publish, copy, or otherwise distribute these images, please contact the Courts of British Columbia: http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/"@en . "Original Format: University of British Columbia. Library. Law Library."@en . "[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-02-25]"@en . "Text"@en .