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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-06-14] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jun 14, 1988

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 6970  ncouver, B.C  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Commission Evidence 1  June 14, 1988  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 10:00 a.m.)  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  Columbia, this Tuesday, June 14, 1988.  Calling  Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen at bar, My  Lord.  THE COURT:  Ms. Mandell.  MS. MANDELL:  Thank you, My Lord.  I have had an opportunity  last night of consulting with Peter Grant after your  suggestion that perhaps the proceedings might be done  on a more selective basis, and having considered the  matter, we have of the 18 tapes remaining, there has  been three selected for your Lordship's viewing:  tape  three, tape eight and tape nine.  THE COURT:  These are of Mr. Williams?  MS. MANDELL:  This is of Mr. Williams.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MS. MANDELL:  And then if my friends are themselves inclined  after that to introduce to you a portion of the  cross-examination or the redirect, that would be for  them to advise.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MS. MANDELL:  And your suggestion as to whether or not then  there could be further viewings on Your Lordship's  part of other commission witnesses, that suggestion  was also taken up and it will be our intention to have  Your Lordship use the remainder of the week, if  possible, to view more of the Gitksan commission  witnesses, and I'll advise at a later date as to the  ones on the tapes.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MS. MANDELL:  We are having a difficulty, just to advise Your  Lordship, as to the -- locating the tapes that we need  in Vancouver. I believe that at the present time they  are in Hazelton.  THE COURT:  All right.  Well, I can say that I think that it's  useful to see some of the tape of the witnesses.  It  wasn't too useful with Mr. Williams because as I  mentioned last evening, I spent a greater part of the  day with Mr. Williams on our view, and the video is  not much help from the point of view of assessing the  demeanour of a witness.  They sit at the table with  their full face to the camera rather like Mount  Rushmore.  And while Mr. Williams showed signs of his 6971  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Commission Evidence 1 jovial good nature  on video, I had already seen that  2 in real life.  It may be that other witnesses will not  3 be quite as sphinx-like as Mr. Williams was like,  4 except for --  5 MR. PLANT:  Part of the problem with Mr. Williams is that he  6 wore his glasses and the light reflected off the  7 glasses.  8 THE COURT:  Yes, he did, yes.  He looked a bit like a space  9 cadet at times but I know what he looks like and so I  10 wasn't misled by that.  But as I said, I am in  11 counsel's hands and I will watch whatever counsel tell  12 me they think I should see, and I have set aside a  13 whole week for this.  I would like to go off and hear  14 a sore neck case or a broken neck case but I know  15 that's not my role in life, and I am here for this  16 whole week and longer as counsel think is necessary.  17 So do proceed and show me whatever you think I should  18 see.  19 MS. MANDELL:  Thank you.  We'll proceed then, now, with the tape  20 three which is the continuation of what -- of what you  21 were watching yesterday.  It's found at page 41 of  22 volume 1 of the commission.  23 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  And we will watch the end of that  24 and then go to something else?  25 MS. MANDELL:  And then go to tape eight.  2 6 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  27 MS. MANDELL:  And tape nine.  I might advise, My Lord, that this  28 is my first opportunity to press the go button, and if  29 it doesn't work I have no other techniques.  30 THE COURT:  Miss Mandell, before you turn the machine on, I  31 notice the jury are still here and I think I should  32 just say to them that I am in the midst of a trial in  33 which two nations of Indian people in north-western  34 British Columbia are claiming aboriginal title or  35 rights to a vast tract of the province, comprising of  36 about 22,000 square miles.  And today is the 105th day  37 of this trial, and we are now viewing the evidence of  38 some witnesses that were taken up in Smithers on video  39 tape, and I have a transcript of what they said and I  40 am now watching selected parts of their evidence to  41 give me an idea of what sort of people they are, and  42 to see them give their evidence by video so that I can  43 better understand it when I read it.  And if you want  44 to come forward, this is not church, you don't have to  45 sit at the back of the room.  If you want to come  46 forward where you can see the monitor, you are welcome  47 to do so.  I am not sure how interesting you'll find 6972  S. Williams (for Plaintiffs)  Commission Evidence 1 it but you might --  you might find it worth watching  2 for as long as you are able to.  If you have to be  3 here in the building you might as well be here as  4 anywhere else, I suppose.  5 This witness is a Mr. Stanley Williams who is a  6 native chief of a house of the Gitksan nation,  7 originally from Gitsegukla which is on the Skeena  8 River, 25 miles or so west of Hazelton, although I  9 think he now lives -- yes, I now know he lives at  10 Gitwingax, which is a slightly larger village another  11 15 or 20 miles west on the Skeena where Westar has a  12 large sawmill.  13 THE REGISTRAR:  Is the court reporter excused?  14 THE COURT:  I see no reason for the reporter to remain, unless  15 counsel think otherwise?  16 MS. MANDELL:  I don't, My Lord.  17 THE COURT:  Thank you, Madam Reporter, you are excused.  18  19 (REPORTER EXCUSED AT 10:10 a.m.)  20  21 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  22 a true and accurate transcript of the  23 proceedings herein transcribed to the  24 best of my skill and ability.  25  26  27  28  29 Toni Kerekes,  30 O.R., R.P.R.  31 United Reporting Service Ltd.  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  6973 6973  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Commission Evidence 1  Vancouver, B. C.  2 June 15, 1988.  3  4  5 THE REGISTRAR:  In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, this  6 Wednesday, June 15th, 1988.  Delgamuukw versus Her  7 Majesty the Queen at bar, my lord.  8 THE COURT:  Thank you.   Ms. Mandell?  9 MS. MANDELL:  My lord, I am mindful of the time constraints.  I  10 was, at this point, wanting to direct your lordship's  11 attention to passages of the commission evidence which  12 begin at page 148, volume three.  And which then --  13 this one Adaawk --  14 THE COURT:  Still Stanley Williams?  15 MS. MANDELL:  Still Stanley Williams.  This one Adaawk I was  16 going to have you view to page 152, where the  17 proceedings were adjourned.  And then to have you read  18 the transcript with respect to page 154, volume three  19 from there.  This is all one Adaawk and it's very  20 lengthy.  I think that it would take you the better  21 part of the afternoon to see the tape and I have  22 reviewed some of it and I am satisfied that you can  23 get the content of it by yourself simply reading the  24 transcript.  25 THE COURT:  All right.  I will make a note.  Asks me to read  26 volume three, page 148 --  27 MS. MANDELL:  148 to 154.  28 THE COURT:  And the one, it starts at line seven, I guess.  29 MS. MANDELL:  Well, yes, the question is starting at line three,  30 that's right.  31 THE COURT:  To page 154, was it?  32 MS. MANDELL:  Yes.  33 THE COURT:  I will be glad to do it.  When do you want me to do  34 it?  35 MS. MANDELL:  I am satisfied that your lordship will do it at a  36 time convenient to you.  That's the -- that was going  37 to be the afternoon portion of the transcript which we  38 were going to ask you to view.  39 I am not saying not to read the rest of the  40 transcript --  41 THE COURT:  I will be reading it all anyway.  42 MS. MANDELL:  I wanted to draw to your lordship's attention that  43 passage.  Having said that, there was no further other  44 passage from this witness that we would be drawing to  45 your lordship's attention.  My friend, Mr. Plant,  46 advises that although he does have portions of the  47 cross-examination which he wishes to draw to your 6974  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Commission Evidence 1 attention, I  understand he hasn't located them  2 precisely on the tape.  The tapes were provided late  3 in the day yesterday and I believe my friend from the  4 federal Crown may also have some, although not lengthy  5 portions, to draw to your lordship's attention,  6 although those two, as I understand it, haven't been  7 identified as to their whereabouts on the tape.  I  8 might advise that following the completion of my  9 friend's sections with respect to cross-examination,  10 we intend to take your lordship into the commission  11 evidence of David Gunanoot and I have certain selected  12 passages from that commission to bring to your  13 lordship's attention and following that we will  14 proceed to take sections from as many of the Gitksan  15 witnesses as we can for the balance of the week.  I am  16 now going to have to rely on my friend to say how he  17 wants to logically proceed.  18 MR. PLANT:  Well, my lord, I very carefully made a note of where  19 the three particular passages were that I wanted your  20 lordship to see and then equally carefully left that  21 note back at the office.  I know where they are in  22 terms of the transcript and I know that the second of  23 the excerpts will be easy to find because I timed it,  24 the beginning of a tape.  But I think it would  25 probably take me about five minutes to find the first  26 one and I say there are three extracts that I would  27 ask your lordship to see and I anticipate that it  28 would take the balance of the afternoon, roughly  29 speaking, to see those three.  30 THE COURT:  Yes.  Well, what do you want to do, do you want to  31 start at the one you can find or do you want to make  32 your phone call and get your other references?  33 MR. PLANT:  My concern is that the time it would take to  34 instruct someone as to the particular place that I  35 left the note, since I don't know where it is --  36 THE COURT:  What are you suggesting?  37 MR. PLANT:  If your lordship would bear with me for about five  38 minutes, whether here or elsewhere --  39 THE COURT:  I will go for a short walk and come back in five or  40 ten minutes.  41  42  43 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR SHORT RECESS)  44  45  4 6 THE COURT:  Do we need the reporter?  47 MS. MANDELL:  No, my lord. 6975  S. Williams (For Plaintiffs)  Commission Evidence 1    THE COURT:  You are excused  for the day.  Thank you.  2  3  4 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  5 a true and accurate transcript of the  6 proceedings herein to the best of my  7 skill and ability.  8  9  10  11  12  13 Wilf Roy  14 Official Reporter  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 6976  Proceedings  Commission Evidence 1  JUNE 16, 198 8  2 VANCOUVER, B.C.  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  5 Columbia, this Thursday, June 16, 1988.  Calling  6 Delgamuukw versus her Majesty The Queen at bar, My  7 Lord.  8 MS. MANDELL:  Thank you.  9 THE COURT:  Ms. Mandell.  10 MS. MANDELL:  If I could address you with respect to two matters  11 briefly before we proceed with the viewing of David.  12 The first is a matter for which I don't have a clear  13 proposal.  It deals with the problems with which we  14 saw clearly last night with respect to the  15 transcription, and I think that the Court Reporter did  16 a terrific job, given how difficult it is for the  17 accused to be understood, although I did notice that  18 for many of the places that there were difficulties  19 arising, as I saw it, where Mr. Gunanoot would slip  20 into Gitksan and mumble his English around that, and  21 the breaks between where he went into Gitksan and  22 where he resumed in English, that segment didn't get  23 either transcribed or translated, and the transcript  24 is showing those problems.  25 We are prepared to have the videos viewed by  26 somebody who is Gitksan speaking and are in a position  27 to make recommendations regarding how to fill in some  28 of the problems with respect to Mr. Gunanoot's  29 transcription, although I don't at this time ask that  30 there be anything finally determined about this.  31 My friends both have been advised by me of our offer,  32 and they would like to consider it.  And I bring it to  33 Your Lordship's attention, and perhaps it can be  34 resolved at that time when they have had a chance to  35 do that.  36 THE COURT:  Well, that's very satisfactory.  My sense of all of  37 this is that the transcript, for perfectly  38 understandable reasons, is not perfect.  39 MS. MANDELL:  That's true.  40 THE COURT:  And that must be so, given the circumstances you  41 have already mentioned, but that the transcript is  42 perfectly adequate to provide the court with, and any  43 subsequent court that has to deal with the matter,  44 with the burden of the evidence of the witnesses.  I  45 have serious doubt if any of the errors or omissions,  46 if I can call it that, for want of a better term, are  47 going to make any difference at all in the assessment 6977  Proceedings  Commission Evidence 1              that's made of the  evidence or the outcome of the  2 trial.  3 I'm going to have to adjourn at quarter to 11 for a  4 matter.  5 But subject to that, by all means, if you and your  6 friend can work out some arrangement, make suggestions  7 for alterations in the transcript, and if you well  8 agree, then by all means that's the perfectly  9 acceptable way to proceed.  10 MR. PLANT: I should advise Your Lordship that Mr. Grant and I  11 corresponded in the fall of 1987 with respect to some  12 changes to the transcript, and my recollection is that  13 I received his list, and in some cases did check  14 against the transcript, comparing the transcript of  15 the video, but in most cases checked against the  16 transcript for what might be called a gross error, and  17 I understood that the product of our joint efforts was  18 a list of agreed upon corrections that should be filed  19 with the court.  It only dealt with volume one.  I  20 don't know if that was filed last night.  I don't  21 think its been filed before now.  That will address  22 some matters where the transcript is really just --  23 for example, the Reporter heard the word Luce and  24 wrote it down L-u-c-e, and it's clear from the context  25 that Mr. Gunanoot was referring to the chief Luus,  26 L-u-u-s.  It doesn't respond exactly to my friend's  27 concern.  I was at this commission, and it was a  28 struggle at times to --  2 9    THE COURT:  Obviously.  30 MR. PLANT: -- to understand in precise words what Mr. Gunanoot  31 was saying.  It was never difficult to understand the  32 substance of what he was saying.  And we did have the  33 assistance of Mr. Ralph Michell as a translater there  34 on hand, but my recollection was he wasn't used as  35 often as he could have been.  And I guess I have a  36 logistical concern at this point about going back --  37 speaking of someone who spent several hours going back  38 through the transcript at Mr. Grant's request to get  39 these errors -- some errors corrected, I have, I  40 guess, a concern about going back through it all over  41 again, but otherwise, I guess, I am happy to consider  42 my friend's proposal.  43 THE COURT:  As I said, I am perfectly agreeable to what Ms.  44 Mandell is suggesting.  I don't require it.  I'm not  45 convinced it's necessary, but I certainly won't stand  46 in the way of counsels' relentless pursuit for  47 perfection. 697?  Proceedings  Commission Evidence 1    MR. PLANT: I think Miss  Harper had the videos.  I know she had  2 an audio tape.  I know she struggled long and hard  3 with these transcripts to get them into the shape that  4 they are in.  5 THE COURT:  I think she's done a commendable job.  6 MS. MANDELL:  It's very difficult, I really agree with you.  7 My Lord, the second matter that I would like to  8 address is to do with the selection of passages for  9 Your Lordship to view regarding the cross-examination.  10 This matter troubled me after we adjourned last night,  11 and if I could identify the concern this way.  I -- it  12 had to do with the selection of passages made by the  13 Federal Government with respect to the Commission of  14 Stanley Williams.  We agree that passage selection may  15 be for many purposes, but to the extent that one  16 purpose is to permit Your Lordship to view the  17 demeanour of the witness, it appeared that what  18 happened last night was that we viewed a selection of  19 12 and-a-half minutes selected randomly through the  20 cross-examination of the Federal Crown showing Mr.  21 Williams angry, and that's what we saw.  And it seems  22 that it's -- there is something faulted about the  23 procedure.  It seems unbalanced to me that we should  24 have Your Lordship view the demeanour of a witness  25 under cross-examination with the selection process  2 6 that way.  27 THE COURT:  Ms. Mandell, I don't think you need be concerned.  28 In every case, certainly in this one, the demeanour of  29 the witness is completely different in chief and on  30 cross-examination.  31 MS. MANDELL:  That's exactly the concern that I had, that after  32 many days of cross-examination, which Your Lordship  33 isn't exposed to, you are exposed to a selection of 12  34 and-a-half minutes where the accused is angry, and I  35 say that if the purpose of the passage selection on  36 cross is to permit Your Lordship to view the demeanour  37 under cross-examination, that there should be some  38 bound put to the way in which the selection of  39 passages may be made.  And it's our suggestion that  40 the -- there be a unit of time selected, whether it be  41 for break to break or several topics in total, and  42 that within that you will see more than simply  43 selection of passages at random over many days of  44 cross-examination, and you will get a balanced view of  45 what the witness was like under cross-examination.  46 And I raise this now, not expecting that the problem  47 is going to be necessarily repeated for the future, 6979  Proceedings  Commission Evidence 1 but hoping that  Your Lordship will assist in the  2 parties putting some reasonable limits to this  3 problem, so as that we don't have to have it revisited  4 every time that we end up into a cross-examination  5 viewing situation.  6 Our suggestion is that there be a unit of time  7 played, within which the passages which the Crown  8 wishes to present to Your Lordship for  9 cross-examination get viewed, and that within that  10 we'll live with the fact that hopefully within that  11 unit of time there will be some balanced  12 cross-examination capable of being viewed.  But we do  13 think that the process is wrong, that we should be  14 exposed to selected clips of many, many days of  15 cross-examination for the purposes of drawing out one  16 emotion which they would like Your Lordship to view  17 that the witness expressed.  18 THE COURT:  I don't know how to respond to that, Miss Mandell.  19 It was obvious that the passages I saw of Mr.  20 Williams' cross-examination last night were marked  21 departures from the demeanour of the witness in chief,  22 and indeed the demeanour of the witness, as I observed  23 him during our view last week, and I think with  24 respect that's fair advocacy.  I think it's -- I think  25 it's a right of counsel to show something that they  26 think requires emphasis.  When you read the whole  27 thing, you get a sense of whether the witness is being  28 cooperative or being angry or being evasive or  29 something else, but you don't always know -- all I got  30 out of that is that on those brief passages he was  31 clearly not an easy witness to cross-examine, and I  32 think that's all that it shows.  I don't think he was  33 the same way throughout the whole of the  34 cross-examination, but I think it's fair for counsel  35 to emphasize the things they think should be  36 emphasized, and in argument you will be able to direct  37 my attention to the passage, if you think that's a  38 serious enough matter, to show that he was being more  39 than helpful, or I will have found that myself.  I  40 don't think you need be concerned about that.  But I  41 have to say that my sense is that if we are doing it  42 the way we are, which seems to me the only sensible  43 way, counsel have to be entitled to take the passages  44 they think are most useful to them from an adversarial  45 point of view and from the point of view of good  46 advocacy or they got a very good answer.  I am  47 expecting they want me to see that.  If they got a 6980  Proceedings  Commission Evidence 1 witness out of  control, then I would suspect they  2 would want me to see that too.  If you get passages  3 you think are particularly important, you are going to  4 show me those.  You are picking a passage you think  5 are most important from your point of view.  Shouldn't  6 they do the same?  7 MS. MANDELL:  The difficulty that is present for us is that  8 certainly we are not going to be selecting passages  9 from cross-examination to show the demeanour of the  10 witness under cross-examination, and it becomes a one  11 sided -- and I say imbalanced prospective to select  12 the passages as they are for that purpose.  Now, if it  13 were an informational or more substantive point, I can  14 see that there is no problem in -- as in fact the  15 Provincial Crown did yesterday, of selecting certain  16 passages which they wanted the substance of the point  17 to be emphasized to you.  But if --  18 THE COURT:  Ms. Mandell, if it's any assistance to you, I can  19 say -- I direct this mainly at Mr. Frey -- is that I  20 have already noticed those problems, a startling  21 difference of the witness between their demeanour in  22 chief and in cross-examination.  Even the mildest of  23 witnesses, such as Mr. Joseph, got quite annoyed in  24 cross-examination, towards the end of the  25 cross-examination.  He got quite personal on two or  26 three occasions, as did other witnesses.  Mrs.  27 MacKenzie was a model of responsiveness in chief, and  28 in cross she -- her true feelings came through more  29 than I think they did in chief, although her true  30 nature, I think, was more evident during her  31 examination in chief.  And I have noticed this not  32 just in this trial but in all trials, and if your  33 friends are worried that I won't notice that, and that  34 I won't pick it up from the transcript, I can tell  35 them now that I am alive to that.  Very natural and  36 common occurrence that takes place in trials, and they  37 are not going to interfere.  And their choice of the  38 passages that I see, that I can tell them that they  39 don't need to show me those passages, if they are in  40 the transcript, just to show me that there is a  41 difference between the demeanour in chief and  42 cross-examination.  I come to expect that.  43 MS. MANDELL:  But there is nuances within cross-examination too,  44 where a witness could be at one time particularly  45 expressing of an emotion during cross-examination for  46 one percent of the cross-examination, and the entire  47 rest of the balance of the cross-examination is really 6981  Proceedings  Commission Evidence  1  to be viewed in  another way.  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT: Aren't I likely to get that out of reading just as  easily out of seeing it?  MS. MANDELL:  I don't think necessarily that you will.  I don't  know that, for example, the tenor of the witnesses  presentation comes through during the transcript  reading at all, and the emphasis and the emotional  content is really what Your Lordship is being asked to  view at this time.  MR. PLANT: I might just add this comment, My Lord, that again  speaking as someone who was there in this case for  both Stanley Williams and David Gunanoot, that -- and  Your Lordship, I'm sure, is well aware of this, that  there is a difference between being there and seeing  what's on the tape in the first place, so that already  one stage removed from the reality of the ambiance of  a room where the examination is taking place.  THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  It's like watching an exciting football  game in the stadium and in the home.  It's all the  difference in the world.  These aren't the first  differences I have ever seen.  I am fully alive to the  difficulties that arise.  As I say, if the defence  thinks it's helpful for me to see the witnesses in the  majesty of their anger, and that's probably  exaggerating it, I won't stop them from doing so, but  they don't need to show me that to persuade me that  there is often a difference in these witnesses.  There  is no difference between chief and cross-examination.  I noticed that many times already.  MR. FREY: Perhaps I could just briefly address many of these  points.  Ms. Mandell used randomly selected.  I'm not  sure that Your Lordship realized that the passages  started when Ms. Koenigsberg commenced a topic, and  finished when Ms. Koenigsberg finished a topic.  We  thought, given we only got the tapes at lunchtime  yesterday, we did an admirable job to limiting the  things to about 15 minutes.  Those passages were put  in for substantive purposes as well.  That's a matter  of argument, but those passages weren't put in just  for demeanour.  I think on the point of demeanour Ms.  Koenigsberg's cross-examination didn't go on for days  and days, I believe it might have been a day in total,  and for our cross-examination we found trouble with  Mr. Williams being less than cooperative sometimes.  COURT: He was also getting towards the end of a long day.  FREY:  That's exactly the point I wish to make, My Lord.  We  are always in the on deck circle while the Province is  THE  MR. 6982  going at it, and  you have noti  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Proceedings  Commission Evidence 1  ced in witnesses at  trial, and Mr. Joseph is a good example, where after  many days of being dealt with by Mr. Goldie, Ms.  Koenigsberg didn't have extended to her the same  patience that was extended to Mr. Goldie.  THE COURT: Mr. Goldie got his share of ropes in  cross-examination as well.  MR. FREY:  It's understandable that the witness is tired and  weary of the whole process, but we thought, and I  believe we will probably continue to put very short  passages, to not take up time in those matters and to  focus where we think the point of this is, demeanour.  You can get the substantive points in the transcript  and selected passages where both demeanour and  substantive points occur, and we don't think they were  randomly selected or unrepresentative, and I don't see  how we will do it differently next time.  THE COURT:  Well, I'm not going to purport to or attempt to  change the style that you are following.  If at the  end of the day, Ms. Mandell, you think that it's going  to be necessary to get a more balanced view that I  can't get from reading, then I will have to consider  looking at some more passages that you might wish to  bring my attention to.  MS. MANDELL:  Okay.  THE COURT:  But I don't think I should say I require the  defendants to apply certain guidelines to the passages  they select.  I think I have to leave that to counsel.  And your remedy is to say I think I should look at  some more.  MS. MANDELL:  Well, I would, and I would say that when my friend  says that the passages were selected for demeanour, he  means the type of attitude that he would like Your  Lordship to see.  Demeanour is not that.  THE COURT:  Demeanour is a many splendid thing.  MS. MANDELL:  And we have only seen one small section of it.  THE COURT:  I saw a lot of Mr. Williams in his usual jovial self  in his evidence in chief.  I saw only two very short  passages.  As I say, I think these aren't the first  witnesses I have ever seen.  MS. MANDELL:  My Lord, then with your leave I would like to  leave the balance of the viewing to Mr. Adams.  THE COURT:  Can he handle the machine?  MR. ADAMS: We will find out.  THE COURT:  Very well, Ms. Mandell.  I think I need the Reporter  for speaking to the list at 10 o'clock.  MR. PLANT: Perhaps I could rise on one point that I am advised 6983  by Ms. Sigurdson  that  this wasn  2  3  't dealt w  4  THE COURT  5  MR. PLANT  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  THE COURT  20  21  22  MR. PLANT  23  THE COURT  24  25  MR. PLANT  26  27  THE COURT  28  MR. PLANT  29  30  THE COURT  31  32  MR. PLANT  33  34  MR. FREY:  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  Proceedings  Commission Evidence 1  Lth last  night.  I don't think Your Lordship saw any of the  re-examination of Mr. Williams.  :  No.  : Before we began viewing Mr. Williams' video, I argued  some objections from the transcript, and I propose to  defer arguing objections raised during re-examination  to a later date.  At that time I anticipated that we  would be seeing all of the video of Mr. Williams'  examination, and I expected that Your Lordship would  have the full context of that examination and the  cross-examination in which to rule on the objections  made during redirect.  Since Your Lordship has not had  that opportunity, perhaps I could suggest that  argument, if it should be necessary, on objections  raised during re-examination be deferred until such  time as any evidence given during re-examination is  relied on by any party.  :  Yes.  Or until I have read the whole transcript,  that is the whole of the evidence in chief and  cross-examination.  : Either event would be satisfactory to me.  :  You can certainly raise that again whenever it's  convenient.  : Perhaps I could just ask Your Lordship if you still  have the list that I handed up on Monday.  :  Yes, I do.  : Perhaps that could be kept in some place for  reference.  :  I'll put it with -- I'll put it with the transcripts  of Mr. Williams' evidence.  : Thank you, My Lord.  Counsel can remind me where it  is .  While we are tying up loose ends on the Stanley  Williams' discovery, there are three objections that  Mr. Grant had raised with respect to the  cross-examination of the Federal Crown, and the first  one he raised related to volume 5 at page 345, and it  related to the use of -- well, in reference to an  estate, and you may recall Mr. Grant said that he  understood there may be a Provincial B.C. Supreme  Court probate file with the same documents.  Those  documents were listed by us and I gave copies to Mr.  Grant.  And Ms. Mandell may want to check this with  Mr. Grant, but he advised me that he had no difficulty  now with those passages going in.  :  All right. 6984  Proceedings  Commission Evidence 1    MR. FREY:  Because all of the  materials existing -- open for  2 public view in the probate file in the Terrace  3 Registry.  4 THE COURT:  All right.  5 MR. FREY: The third point he raised, just rather a mechanical  6 point, it relates to page 351 of the transcript,  7 and --  8 THE COURT: Of Mr. Williams' transcript?  9 MR. FREY: Mr. Williams.  10 THE COURT:  I don't have it here.  11 MR. FREY: Simply that Exhibit 31 was a map of Gitwangak fishing  12 sites, but I believe it was used during the evidence  13 of Mrs. Ryan, and we referred to that on the  14 cross-examination.  Of course we didn't have the  15 court's filed exhibit copy and had Ms. Koenigsberg's  16 copy, and Mr. Grant simply wanted to see the copy that  17 we were going to file on the commission.  That can be  18 done, I believe, probably tomorrow.  It's simply that  19 we didn't realize a Reporter would be here today, and  20 wanted to make sure there was a Reporter when we put  21 that in.  And I believe the second point may still be  22 outstanding, so I will have to discuss that with him.  23 MR. PLANT: I'm sorry to jump up again myself.  Your Lordship  24 should note that there were objections taken during my  25 cross-examination by Mr. Grant to some of my  26 questions.  I am referring again to my  27 cross-examination of Stanley Williams.  Mr. Grant  28 subsequently in correspondence to me has withdrawn all  29 of those objections.  30 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Shall the show go on?  I  31 think we were on page?  32 MS. MANDELL:  1-48, beginning at line 44.  33 MR. PLANT: My Lord, could I ask Mr. Williams to sit with me  34 or -- in order that he have the ability to try and  35 follow this on the transcript?  36 THE COURT:  I'm sure there is no objection to that, is there?  37 MS. MANDELL:  No.  38 THE COURT:  Okay.  If Mr. Williams will undertake to behave  39 himself.  40 MR. WILLIAMS: With difficulty, My Lord.  41 THE COURT:  I think, Madam Reporter, you may be excused.  You  42 are welcome to stay if you wish.  43  44 (REPORTER EXCUSED AT 10:05)  45  46  47 6985  Proceedings  Commission Evidence  I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO  BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT  OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE  BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  LORI OXLEY  OFFICIAL REPORTER  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 6986  Proceedings  Commission Evidence 1  June 17th, 1988  2 VANCOUVER, B.C.  3  4 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  5 THE COURT: Well, my apologies to counsel.  As you probably know,  6 I've been discharging some ceremonial duties this  7 morning.  8 THE REGISTRAR: In the Supreme Court of British Columbia this  9 Friday, June 17, 1988, calling Delgamuukw versus Her  10 Majesty the Queen at bar, My Lord.  11 THE COURT:  Where I might add Mr. Macaulay was featured in some  12 of the remarks made regarding some activities with Mr.  13 Guile and Mr. Hollinrake in a former era.  14 MR. MACAULAY:  I hope there was no court reporter present.  15 THE COURT:  Well, there was, but there were no particulars  16 given.  All right.  Are you ready to proceed?  17 MR. ADAMS: My Lord, we're just picking up where we left off  18 yesterday afternoon in Mr. Johnson's commission.  19 THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Macaulay, did you have something you  20 wanted to say?  21 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  Yesterday we were served with a notice of  22 motion and an affidavit regarding, amongst other  23 things, the manner in which the Attorney-General of  24 Canada has been listing documents these past years,  25 and the application is returnable Monday morning.  I'm  26 applying for an order that the application not be  27 heard Monday morning, but some convenient date  28 convenient to counsel later in the week.  I have just  29 been told that Mr. Goldie has written to Mr. Rush  30 suggesting that the application be heard next Monday.  31 I don't know the reason for that, picking that day,  32 and Mr. Adams has suggested and I agree with him that  33 perhaps it should be adjourned from Monday to a day to  34 be fixed after counsel has had a -- counsel have had  35 an opportunity to discuss the day that would be best  36 suited to the plaintiffs of course who will be leading  37 evidence from another witness, and Mr. Goldie.  38 THE COURT:  What day do you suggest Mr. Adams?  39 MR. ADAMS: I didn't have a day to suggest, My Lord, I just  40 suggested that I would agree with Mr. Macaulay that it  41 wouldn't be Monday and that was his immediate concern.  42 THE COURT:  All right.  Should I arbitrarily fix a date such  43 as —  4 4 MR. MACAULAY: Well —  45 THE COURT:  -- or would you rather just leave it generally?  46 MR. MACAULAY: I think Mr. Adams' point is he would like to  47 discuss this with counsel who will be speaking to the 6987  Proceedings  Commission Evidence 1 application if he's  not.  2 THE COURT:  Yes.  I'll adjourn it generally and either counsel  3 can bring it back on in two days' notice or at any  4 time.  5 MR. MACAULAY: Any time.  I don't think it should be fixed at two  6 days' notice so long as we know we don't have to cope  7 with this on Monday morning.  8 THE COURT:  I'm just protecting the position of one party if  9 they say the other side won't agree to anything and  10 they want to bring it back, but any time that counsel  11 can agree upon, otherwise on two days' notice and it  12 won't go ahead on Monday.  Thank you.  13 Anything else for which we should have the  14 assistance of madam reporter?  15 MR. PLANT: Well, I'd just like to note as a housekeeping matter  16 that my understanding is that at present the tapes 9  17 through 20 from the Stanley Williams commission have  18 not yet been filed as exhibits, nor have any of the  19 tapes from the David Gunanoot or Fred Johnson  20 commissions.  21 THE COURT:  Yes.  22 MR. PLANT: And I would hope that could be done soon.  I'm in my  23 friend's hands there because he has the tapes.  24 THE COURT:  Yes.  Well, are you ready to deal with that Mr.  25 Adams or do you want to do it some other time?  26 MR. ADAMS: I started inquiries yesterday afternoon about the  27 location and the state of all the tapes and I don't  28 have the answer to that.  2 9 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, you can bring it up again any time  30 Mr. Plant.  31 MR. PLANT: Thank you, My Lord.  32 THE COURT:  All right.  33 THE REGISTRAR: How will they all be marked?  34 THE COURT:  In the same sequence as the transcripts and the  35 exhibits.  36 THE REGISTRAR: So whenever they come in they can be marked.  37 THE COURT:  Actually, if counsel can agree on the numbers it can  38 be done privately, madam registrar.  It needn't even  39 be spoken to, but after that someone should make a  40 statement for the record as to what's been done.  41 THE REGISTRAR: Because I'll have to have them marked.  42 THE COURT:  But mechanically counsel can arrange that with madam  43 registrar.  All right.  Anything else or shall we  44 relieve madam reporter of her court responsibilities  45 to this case for today?  You're welcome to stay madam  46 reporter if you wish or you may also depart.  47 69?  PLAYED)  Proceedings  Commission Evidence  (VIDEO TAPES  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein to the  best of my skill and ability.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Tanita S. French  Official Reporter

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