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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-03-23, 2] British Columbia. Supreme Court Mar 23, 1988

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 4996  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 Vancouver, B.C.,  2 March 23rd, 1988.  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  5  6 THE REGISTRAR:  In Supreme Court of British Columbia.  This  7 Wednesday, March 23, 1988.  Calling Delgamuukw versus  8 Her Majesty the Queen, at bar, my lord.  9 I caution the witness and the interpreter you're  10 still under oath.  11  12 JOAN RYAN, Resumed:  13  14 THE COURT:  Mr. Jackson.  15 MR. JACKSON:  My lord, when we took the adjournment yesterday  16 afternoon Chief Hanamuxw had described the nature of  17 the field centres which are part of the NITEP program,  18 and I'll pick up the questioning from that point.  19  20 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. JACKSON:  21 Q   What is the responsibilities of the advisory committee  22 in relation to the field centres you described  23 yesterday?  24 A   The other responsibilities for the NITEP committee has  25 to do with the selection of the NITEP staff.  We  26 usually advertise for the positions just like we do  27 for other positions for the staffing of the University  28 of British Columbia.  Usually a sub-committee is  29 established from the advisory committee that would  30 accept the applications from the applicants.  They  31 would review the qualifications of the people who  32 apply for the positions on the NITEP staff.  They  33 would short list the people that they would like to  34 interview.  And usually on the committee that deals  35 with the applications we would have a member of the  36 community in which the centre's located be on the  37 review committee, the director of NITEP, the  38 supervisor of NITEP, the co-ordinator for that centre  39 if that co-ordinator is still available, a student  40 from the area in which the centre is located.  They  41 would go through all the applications and after  42 establishing who the candidate is for the position  43 they would make the recommendation to the whole  44 advisory committee who in turn will review the  45 qualification of that particular individual and set  46 out the terms of the contract under which that person  47 is to be hired.  The advisory committee would vote on 4997  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 this applicant, and if the majority on the committee  2 agrees that this is going to be the applicant to be  3 recommended to the Dean of Education then that name is  4 forwarded to the Dean who will either say yes or no  5 depending on whether he feels this person is going to  6 fit into -- into the staff of the university or  7 faculty of the university.  So far we have not had one  8 recommendation turned down by the Faculty of  9 Education, but he still has that power to make the  10 final judgment, and if he says no then we can go back  11 and start the process over again.  12 Q   But you say that has not happened?  13 A   So far no within 14 years.  14 Q   In addition to the establishment of field centres and  15 the admission and selection of staff what other heads  16 of responsibilities do you have as the advisory  17 committee?  18 A   Before the students can be enrolled in the Faculty of  19 Education at the university our program director goes  20 through all the applications from the students.  He  21 lists in detail for the senate the academic  22 qualifications of the students.  From his list he  23 presents that information to the advisory committee.  24 We go through the list, and we either approve the list  25 or we ask the certain students be recommended to take  26 other training before enrolling in the Faculty of  27 Education.  And then our program director presents  28 that to the senate just like any other students who  29 enroll at the University of British Columbia.  30 In addition to that the advisory committee also  31 deals with what we call re-admissions.  Some of our  32 students for many different reasons cannot stay in the  33 program.  One of them being financial, the other one  34 has to do with the process that they involve  35 themselves in.  And I mentioned part of this yesterday  36 in my presentation, that there are times when our  37 students have difficulty sorting out their own values  38 and have to find a way of coping with that.  And it  39 seems to indicate to us that this process of sorting  40 out your values and your own self-discipline and your  41 own interests is connected to whether you can handle  42 the program straight through or not.  Our program is  43 designed so that there are exit points for our  44 students if they are experiencing personal problems  45 that have to do with sorting out their identity.  Last  46 week I was involved in a committee meeting of this  47 advisory board and we re-admitted nine students for 499E  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 the coming year.  Many of these students dropped out  2 about four years ago, three years ago, two years ago  3 and even just last year.  4 THE COURT:  Sorry.  Can I stop you for a minute and ask you  5 where are your field centres?  6 A   There's one in Victoria, Chilliwack, Prince George,  7 Kamloops.  8 THE COURT:  The closest one?  9 A   Chilliwack is the closest one.  10 THE COURT:  From here, but the closest one from the claim area  11 would be Prince George?  12 A   That's right.  13 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  14 MR. JACKSON:  15 Q   Does the advisory committee have any role in terms of  16 the shape of direction of programs?  17 A   Yes.  One of the things that we had to negotiate with  18 the university when the entry meets the program was to  19 request that the courses be taken not in the same  20 sequence as the regular program.  And it took awhile  21 to establish that, because we have never had the  22 regular teacher training program rearranged to the  23 extent to which we wanted NITEP to be patterned.  On  24 the part of the university it was chancy for them, but  25 it worked.  26 Q   Okay.  Is there any relationship between --  27 A   Let me just finish.  28 Q   Sorry.  I beg your pardon.  29 A   The other thing that we do as an advisory committee is  30 to review the content of many of the courses that are  31 taken by our students.  And our basic request to the  32 faculty members is that they have to look at the  33 background of our students and design the course  34 content to compliment and supplement the background  35 knowledge of our students in the program.  And in most  36 cases this has been done.  And the other thing we have  37 done is that we have made direct requests to the  38 faculty saying that we feel certain courses are really  39 important to our students, and this is where our  40 native education courses come in.  The other one  41 change that we had requested had to do with the speech  42 arts, and we felt this was really important for our  43 students because English is the second language to  44 many of our students, therefore, they need to practice  45 if they are going to be effective cummunicators in the  46 classroom.  This has never been done as part of the  47 regular teacher training program, and I'm happy to say 4999  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 that this particular course is going to be included in  2 the new five year program that is being introduced at  3 the University of British Columbia.  The speech arts  4 is going to be one of the required courses for teacher  5 trainees.  6 Q   Does the advisory committee have any role vis-a-vis  7 Indian communities away from the university and the  8 university?  9 A   Certainly we try to maintain the links with the Indian  10 community.  We have to listen to the kinds of  11 requirements that they feel our communities need which  12 may not be identical to what the larger community  13 requires.  And the university is doing its best right  14 now to respond to that request.  They have expanded  15 the role of our advisory committee to include the  16 responsibility of being part of the First House of  17 Learning group that is being established in UBC  The  18 responsibility of this First House of Learning is to  19 encourage as many post-secondary students from the  20 native communities to enter other programs.  We feel  21 that when students leave the secondary school they  22 should be encouraged to further their education, and  23 we hope that this First House of Learning will  24 accommodate that need of the communities.  One of  25 their responsibilities right now is to survey the  26 communities and see just what areas need to be looked  27 at and have courses designed to meet those needs.  And  28 I guess one of the decisions that would have to be  29 made is whether this set of courses would be offered  30 on campus or whether they would be offered off campus  31 like NITEP, but that is a decision that is going to  32 come in the future.  33 Q   You referred to the First House of Learning.  Is that  34 the full title?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   It's — I —  37 A   You have -- sorry.  38 Q   No.  I understood, and perhaps my friends will permit  39 this, it's the First Nations House of Learning?  40 A   Sorry.  Okay.  Yes.  41 Q   Chief Hanamuxw, when you started work in the formation  42 and establishment of the NITEP program do you know how  43 many native teachers there were in British Columbia  44 approximately?  45 A   This would be in 1974 and we had 26 qualified -- fully  46 qualified teachers in British Columbia.  47 Q   Do you know how many teachers there were in British 5000  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 Columbia generally at that point?  2 A   23,000 teachers in British Columbia.  3 Q   Since the formation of the foundation of the NITEP  4 program how many people have graduated?  5 A  We have 96 graduates from the program.  These are  6 people with full degrees, but we have had close to 400  7 students enrolled in the program since its inception.  8 And one of the reasons for our low rate of graduates  9 has to do with the fact that once the students are  10 enrolled in NITEP and they discovered that they can  11 handle the university programs some of them have  12 transferred to other programs and have completed their  13 education in other areas.  So even though our numbers  14 are low we have -- we have had an impact on other  15 programs.  16 Q   Have any of the people, to your knowledge, graduated  17 from NITEP gone into the law school?  18 A   Penny Desjarlais.  19 Q   Yes.  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Do you know of the 96 people who have graduated how  22 many of them have been from Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  23 communities?  24 A   Seven.  25 Q   And could you tell me who is the program director for  26 NITEP at the present time?  27 A   Roger Smith, and he's from Hazleton.  28 Q   And is he a Gitksan person?  29 A   He's a Gitksan person, yes.  30 Q   Chief Hanamuxw, when I showed you the other day that  31 paper by Dr. Kirkness and Dr. McEachern, and in its  32 title it refers to the NITEP program as a paradigm, as  33 I recall the title.  Do you have any knowledge of the  34 extent to which the NITEP program has been viewed as a  35 model in other -- outside of British Columbia?  36 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  Are you asking about this paper or are  37 you asking about the program?  38 MR. JACKSON:  I'm asking about the program.  39 A   Certainly it's stated in this paper Dr. McEachern had  40 used this model in the Philippines.  And we've had  41 people from Italy express an interest in the model of  42 this program, also people from New Zealand and  43 Australia as well.  44 MR. JACKSON:  Perhaps your lordship in your sojourns in  45 Australia could make some inquiries on our behalf.  46 THE COURT:  I'll make some inquiries and see if I can confirm  47 what's been said.  As a matter of fact, I received a 5001  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 call this morning from one of my judges, and who said  2 they are arguing an Aboriginal case in the -- what is  3 it called, the High Court of Australia?  4 MR. JACKSON:  Yes.  5 THE COURT:  The top court.  6 MR. JACKSON:  Yes.  7 THE COURT:  They are arguing a case as of yesterday.  I'll make  8 some inquires about it.  9 MR. JACKSON:  10 Q   Could you explain how you see the nature of the  11 relationship between the University of British  12 Columbia and NITEP?  13 A   Certainly when we were considering establishing the  14 program we were very firm in saying that input had to  15 come from the Indian people, so that our advisory  16 committee was struck to illustrate that point that  17 most of the members on the committee had to be Indian  18 people from different parts of British Columbia, along  19 with the faculty members.  We felt that if the program  20 is going to succeed it had to be a joint  21 responsibility, and that the exchange would have to  22 come from both directions at all times.  We felt that  23 the university cannot work in isolation, and neither  24 can we.  And it took a lot of politicizing to achieve  25 that point.  And when we did we felt that the program  26 had to continue with the idea of having an advisory  27 committee that included Indian people.  And that same  28 theory exists today.  We feel that the university has  29 a lot of resources that they can offer such as the  30 buildings, the staff with the knowledge that our  31 students would need if they're going to become  32 successful teachers, the funding that would maintain  33 such a program, and yet at the same time we feel that  34 our people had resources that is necessary to maintain  35 the stability that is essential in establishing such a  36 program.  They have the resources such as our own  37 adaawk, our songs, our legends, our spiritual beliefs,  38 our philosophy of life.  And we felt that the students  39 need both if they are going to be successful  40 individuals throughout their lives.  And we have tried  41 very hard to combine the two.  42 Q   Could you explain to the court how you see your  43 continuing work with the NITEP program, and the work  44 in fact you've outlined for the court over the years,  45 how do you see that related to your role, your  4 6 authority as Hanamuxw?  47 A   One of the requirements of a chief is that you are 5002  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 expected to take care of your people and to improve  2 their lot in life, whatever that may take.  And  3 certainly in my decision to be a part of this advisory  4 committee was based on this idea that I am expected as  5 Hanamuxw to help develop the skills of my people.  6 There's -- one of the things that we strongly believe  7 in is that the mind, the spirit, and the body must be  8 one, and they have to be aligned at all times.  If  9 your education was segmented then you don't achieve  10 that.  We feel that the whole person has to be  11 developed.  That you don't deal just with the mind  12 alone in isolation.  You also have to take into  13 consideration other needs of the individual, and that  14 you try and develop them totally as best you can.  And  15 I feel that in doing this work I'm also fulfilling one  16 of the historical precedents started by my  17 grandparents that whenever we try to solve problems,  18 and I'm going to have to take you back to the time  19 when the four Houses of Gisk'aast were established in  20 Gitsegukla.  The four houses of the Gisk'aast are,  21 Xsgogimlax ha, Gwis gyen, Hanamuxw and Wiigyet.  22 THE COURT:  Pardon?  What was the last one, please?  2 3    MR. JACKSON:  Wiigyet.  24 THE COURT:  Wiigyet.  Thank you.  25 A   I'm going to have to change one of those.  I'm sorry.  26 I got confused.  I was thinking ahead of myself.  27 Guxsan is the other one, not Wiigyet.  28 THE COURT:  That's Guxsan as we call it, G-U-X-S-A-N?  2 9 A  M'hm.  3 0    MR. JACKSON:  Yes, my lord.  31 A  When those four houses met a long time ago when they  32 were conducting their businesses of directing the  33 activities of the people it was always Hanamuxw who  34 had to make the announcements for the people, who had  35 to take the messages to the neighbouring tribes.  And  36 based on that role of being the spokesperson for  37 Gisk'aast at my village I looked upon my involvement  38 with NITEP as fulfilling that responsibility of being  39 the spokesperson not just for the Gitksan people, but  40 for the Indian people of British Columbia, because  41 when we conducted meetings with B.C. NITEP we found  42 that many of the Indian people in British Columbia had  43 similar needs, had similar problems that need to be  44 taken care of.  And so basically that was my  45 motivation in saying that I will work as hard as I can  46 to see that this program is established not just for a  47 short period of time, but for as long as our people 5003  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 need this kind of program.  2 Q   Are you familiar with the term ambassador?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   Can you relate the work you have done as Hanamuxw to  5 your understanding of that term?  6 A   Yes.  I can relate to it in this way, I can say that  7 when you look at an ambassador usually that person is  8 a person who has with him his cultural values, his  9 spiritual values, and that's kind of the baggage that  10 he takes with him when he travels to new territories.  11 And as he enters those territories he certainly will  12 meet other people with a similar kind of  13 qualifications.  And when you -- when you meet and  14 interact with those people you try and accommodate  15 their values, their spiritual beliefs in with yours,  16 combine them to make it stronger not only for your own  17 nation but for theirs as well, because you work  18 towards a common goal, and the stronger that you can  19 make your commitment to achieve that goal the better  20 it is for you and also for them.  21 Q   Have any of the members of your house followed your  22 example in pursuing post-secondary education?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Could you —  25 A  My brother Don has attended university.  He has three  26 years of university in the field of accountancy and  27 economics.  28 Q   Does he hold a name in your house?  29 A   Yes.  His name is Maas Gaak.  30 THE SPELLER:  Number 27 on the word list.  31 THE REGISTRAR:  Number 27 on the word list.  32 MR. JACKSON:  33 Q   Is there anyone else in your house?  34 A   Yes.  I have a niece who graduated from Simon Fraser  35 last year with a full degree in her majors in  36 anthropology.  I also have in my house the  37 granddaughter of Gwa'aa maats.  38 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  Granddaughter?  39 A   Granddaughter of Gwa'aa maats, yes.  She graduated  40 from the NITEP program with a full degree.  I have a  41 sister Barbara, Barbara Clifton, and her name is  42 Yagaaxe txw.  43 THE SPELLER:  807 on the word list.  801 I mean.  44 THE COURT:  Is that the sister or the granddaughter?  45 A   This is my sister Beverly -- or I'm sorry.  Barbara  46 Clifton.  47 THE COURT:  All right.  Do we have a number for the 5004  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 granddaughter, please?  2 THE REGISTRAR:  12, my lord, on the word list.  3 THE COURT:  12.  Thank you.  You were going to tell me about  4 Barbara Clifton.  5 MR. JACKSON:  I think the name you were given is the name Gwa'aa  6 maats, which is the name of the grandmother of Leona  7 Thistle.  8 Q   Is that correct?  9 A   Leona is the granddaughter of Gwa'aa maats.  10 Q   And Gwa'aa maats is in relation to your house?  11 A   Is a wing chief in my house.  12 THE COURT:  I haven't been told anything about your sister.  13 A   I'm coming to it, my lord.  14 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  15 A  My sister Barbara is taking courses that would prepare  16 her for accountancy, but not a full degree in  17 accountancy.  She has taken some courses that would  18 qualify her for a counselling position in the  19 alcoholic program, and she now works in Hazleton.  2 0 MR. JACKSON:  21 Q   Have you yourself been involved with any educational  22 projects within the Gitksan territories?  23 A  Well, has to do with establishing a kindergarten  24 program for the Gitwingax band.  The title is the  25 Nursery Kindergarden Program on the reserve.  I helped  26 them to prepare the content for the kindergarden  27 program, and assisted in establishing the content of  28 the program for the nursery part of the program.  29 Q   Chief Hanamuxw, what language do you speak?  30 A   Gitksan.  My second language is English.  31 Q   In the setting up of the kindergarten program you just  32 described would it be appropriate in instructing  33 Gitksan children in their own language to employ a  34 person who was a Tsimxsan speaker who had never worked  35 or lived within the Gitksan communities?  36 A   No.  37 Q   Could you explain why that would not be appropriate?  38 A   The Gitksan language is a very distinct language of  39 its own, and if a person from a neighbouring territory  40 comes in it would be difficult for them to do any  41 instruction in our Gitksan language for many reasons.  42 One is that when you learn a second language I think  43 the most important thing missing would be the motive  44 aspect of the words in the language, that you don't  45 appreciate the emotional connotations of the words  46 when you acquire a second language.  You can do that  47 over a period of time, and it does take time to 5005  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 acquire that.  Certainly it would be very difficult  2 for that person to explain some of our adaawk or  3 legends to the children, and to give the correct  4 pronunciation of the words.  For a Tsimxsan some of  5 their pronounciation of their words are different from  6 ours.  The phrasing could be different as well.  The  7 meaning of some of the words would be different.  So  8 if that person is going to instruct children in  9 Gitksan they are going to have to do some -- or spend  10 some time studying the language before they can handle  11 the program adequately.  12 Q   Would it be possible for a Tsimxsan person who did  13 live within the territories -- within the communities  14 of the Gitksan to acquire sufficient knowledge so that  15 they could, in fact, instruct Indian children in the  16 Gitksan language?  17 A   Certainly it's possible.  18 Q   Do you have any to your own knowledge examples of  19 where that has happened?  20 A   Yes.  In Gitwingax.  21 Q   In the school you just described?  22 A   Yes.  In the nursery school, kindergarten school in  23 Gitwingax.  Virginia Moore is originally from  24 Kitkatla, and she is Tsimxsan, which is the way we  25 call it.  26 Q   And what is her relation to you?  27 A   She is married to 'Niitsxw, a wing chief in my house.  28 And she has been in Gitwingax for a period of years,  29 and she has acquired the knowledge of the Gitksan  30 language.  31 Q   Chief Hanamuxw, in the work you have done over the  32 years that you have described for the court with the  33 NITEP program, in the work you have done in as you  34 described it negotiating with the Province, have you  35 given up or abandoned your authority as a Gitksan  36 chief?  37 A   No.  Even though I am away from the territory  38 certainly I maintain links with first of all Gitwingax  39 which is my dad's reserve, and I certainly maintain my  40 links with Gitsegukla, which is my mother's reserve.  41 And whenever there are activities in those two  42 villages if I can attend them I certainly try and  43 attend them whenever the dates are set.  And if I know  44 them sufficiently beforehand then I make every effort  45 to attend the activities that they have in those  46 villages, and as much as possible contribute where I  47 can ideas that might be helpful to them, support them 5006  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  THE  in whatever way I can.  JACKSON:  I would like you, Madam Registrar, if you could  place the Exhibit 34 again before Chief Hanamuxw, and  perhaps the witness could place it in front of her.  Q   Chief Hanamuxw, referring you back to that picture of  November the 1st, 1966, when you took the name  Hanamuxw what did you understand was passed to you  under Gitksan law?  A   I'm sorry.  I'm waiting for my dictionary to be read.  There was a sentence given to me first by Ida Moore,  Suu wii gantxw, and then it was given to me by the  Wil'na t'ahl, and I'll repeat the Indian sentence to  you now.  JACKSON:  Fern, ready?  SPELLER:  Yes.  JACKSON:  Q   What is that sentence, Chief Hanamuxw?  A   Hlaa niin xsi gyalatxwit dim ant guuhl hii dax gyets  dip niye'en.  Dim guudinhl wa midim'y ama gya'adihl  Lax yip.  Q   Do you have a translation of those words that were  given to you?  A   Roughly the translation would be that you are the one  that has been selected to take the land that was your  inheritance, to hold it, and to take care of it.  If  you were to look at the implication of that --  COURT:  Just a moment, please.  Madam reporter, have you --  SPELLER:  It's number 804 on the word list.  COURT:  The whole expression?  SPELLER:  Yes.  COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Is that sufficient, madam  reporter?  REPORTER:  Yes.  Thank you.  COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  JACKSON:  Q   You were just explaining about the implications of  that.  A   I have to collect my thoughts again.  Just a minute.  COURT:  You were going to tell me the implications of what  you have just said.  A   That's right, so I have to collect the words again.  COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  A   That means the land that your forefathers had, that  includes the regalia, that includes the adaawk, that  includes the pole, that includes the resources on the  land, that includes the name Hanamuxw, and the right  to use that name within the Gitksan territory.  That 5007  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 means the right to use the authority of the chief.  2 That includes providing leadership for the people, the  3 Gisk'aast as well as the other clans in Gitsegukla.  4 It means preserving the history of the house.  It  5 means taking care of the present, and always with the  6 idea that you link it with the future.  It means  7 having the right to assist not just the people in your  8 own house, but everyone in your community if they need  9 help.  It means going to other levels of authority  10 whenever you need to negotiate with them to take care  11 of the needs of the people, or it may mean going to  12 neighbouring nations and negotiating with them issues  13 that deal with the Indian problems, or it may mean  14 offering suggestions as to how these can be solved,  15 how the problems can be solved.  It also means that  16 you as the chief have the responsibility of training  17 the younger members of your -- of your family so that  18 all the traditions, all the customs, all the rituals  19 within your house are maintained.  So in a sense the  20 chief is also the teacher for the younger people as  21 well as a counsellor, as well as a spiritual leader.  22 MR. JACKSON:  23 Q   In giving the translation of the Gitksan words that  24 were passed to you my note is that you -- part of it  25 was to take care of the inheritance of the house.  26 Could you explain what you mean by taking care of the  27 territory, taking care of the resources?  28 A   I guess one way to get at that particular question is  2 9 to say that we have a management plan as to how we  30 take care of our resources, and one definite example  31 that I can give here is that when you look at your  32 inventory you know approximately how many dried fish  33 you need within a year, how many cans you use within a  34 year, how many are frozen, how many are half smoked,  35 and based on that inventory when you start to process  36 again in the spring, and during the summer you go to  37 the river and you only take from the river what you  38 need.  Included in that list has to do with trading as  39 well.  I missed one item as well so I better go back  40 and add that one.  You're encouraged to protect the  41 species of the fish, that you don't take more than  42 what you require so that the cycle continues and that  43 you will continue to obtain the fish from the river in  44 the future.  We are told that we must never at any  45 time destroy the stock.  46 Q   Again, when you were translating the phrase you said  47 to hold the property.  What do you understand that 500E  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 means?  Explain to the court.  Elaborate on that.  2 A   I was directly translating our words into English  3 which at best of times is difficult to do.  To me it  4 means that the property is not given to you directly.  5 In other words, it's not your personal property, but  6 rather you are designated as the person to manage that  7 property not just for yourself but for all of the  8 members of your house.  All of our members -- all the  9 members of the house have the right to use the  10 territory whenever they need resources from the  11 territory.  And if they need to go to the territory  12 they probably would pay a courtesy call to Hanamuxw to  13 ask for permission to go to the territory.  And  14 usually that's just a routine matter.  The answer to  15 that question is always yes, because the chiefs are  16 told that they have to be generous.  And I mentioned  17 this yesterday in the list of characteristics that  18 they expect to have in a chief, that whoever is in  19 need of fish they are welcome to come to your fishing  20 site and take whatever fish they need, because there  21 are people within our Gitksan territory who do not own  22 fishing sites.  They do not have houses, but the  23 chiefs have to give them access to their -- to their  24 fishing sites so that they can survive like everybody  25 else.  26 Q   In terms of what was passed to you, what rights were  27 passed to you in relation to the use of the  28 territories in terms of people who are not members of  29 your house?  30 A   I'm not -- I'm not too clear on your question.  I see  31 myself answering it in two ways.  32 Q   Let me clarify it so you're entirely clear on the  33 question.  You mentioned in your last answer that you  34 hold the property on behalf of the other members of  35 the house, and they have rights to use the territory.  36 What is the position in relation to other members of  37 other houses who wish to use Hanamuxw's fishing site  38 or Hanamuxw's territory?  39 A   Okay.  Number one, no one can come on to your  40 territory without permission from you.  And as far as  41 some of the other chiefs are concerned they exercise  42 the same right to give permission to people who want  43 to use their sites.  For people who are not members of  44 your house it's not a standing permit for them to go  45 to your site.  Each time that they want, or each year  46 that they want to go to your site, or at least the  47 Gitksan regulation requires them that they should come 5009  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 to the chief and ask for permission again, so it's an  2 annual renewal of that type of permission.  3 Q   In receiving the name did any rights or  4 responsibilities pass to you in relation to  5 participation in the feast hall?  6 A   It gives me the right to be invited to memorial feasts  7 of other clans.  It gives me the right to attend pole  8 raising feasts of other clans.  It gives me the right  9 to pass judgment on whether Gitksan laws are fulfilled  10 when a name is transferred to a new candidate or a new  11 chief.  It also gives me veto power if I feel that  12 certain regulations and laws are not being fulfilled.  13 It gives me the right to participate in all  14 ventures -- all ventures that the chiefs would like to  15 undertake.  I'll give this land claims court as an  16 example of where I have the privilege of exercising my  17 right to make the decision to be part of this court  18 case.  19 MR. JACKSON:  Would that be a convenient time to take the break?  2 0    THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  21    THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will recess.  22  2 3 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  24  25 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  26 a true and accurate transcript of the  27 proceedings herein to the best of my  28 skill and ability.  29  30  31  32 Peri McHale, Official Reporter  33 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 5010  J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief By Mr. Jackson  JOAN RYAN, Resumed:  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. JACKSON:  (Continued)  MR. JACKSON:  Q   Before the break, Chief Hanamuxw, you had mentioned  that -- you gave evidence that one of the rights and  8 responsibilities which passed to you was those in  9 relation to participating in the feast hall, and you  10 had given evidence, as I understand, that a part of  11 that role was to validate, to confirm if things were  12 done appropriately.  Can you give an example of that  13 process?  14 A   Before you get to the feast hall, it is really  15 important that consultations take place within your  16 own house, certainly within your wilksiwitxw,  17 certainly within your wilksiwitxw and, if necessary,  18 consult with the other chiefs as well.  The extent to  19 which you consult the other chiefs, the other houses,  20 depends on the nature of the issue.  It can be  21 extensive or it can be limited but consultation does  22 take place.  It is a requirement before you get to the  23 feast hall.  And so when we sit as either -- I am  24 sorry, as witnesses in the feast hall, what we are  25 actually doing is giving our stamp of approval of the  26 way the business is conducted.  There will be times  27 when errors are made in describing some of the  28 territories and if that is the case, then it's the  29 position of the chiefs who are present to indicate  30 that an error has taken place.  And usually it's not  31 handled at the feast where it occurs, it's usually  32 dealt with in a subsequent feast.  It is usually the  33 responsibility of the wilksiwitxw to correct that  34 error.  He has to point out that mistakes were made,  35 maybe, in describing a corner of the territory or the  36 fishing sites or maybe the traplines or maybe a wrong  37 crest was used.  I can just go that far in giving you  38 examples of what may happen.  39 Q   In your experience, and to your knowledge, has that  40 occurred where you have in fact witnessed that process  41 where a chief has raised the issue of whether a  42 territory or a fishing site has been improperly  43 described or claimed?  44 A   I was not present at the feast when the error was made  45 but I was present at the feast where the correction  46 was made.  And it was done by the wilksiwitxw of  47 Haalus and that's Gwisgyen. 5011  J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief By Mr. Jackson  1 Q   Just to clarify my understanding of that, the feast at  2 which the error was made was a feast put on by Haalus?  3 A   It would have to be.  4 Q   And the correction which was made, was it a subsequent  5 feast?  6 A   It was a subsequent feast of Haalus.  7 Q   And the person who made the correction was Gwisgyen?  8 A   Yes, Gwisgyen the father of Haalus.  9 Q   In terms of what you describe as the authority that  10 had passed to you as chief Hanamuxw when you took on  11 the name, can you describe to the court how you  12 exercise that authority, the process whereby you would  13 exercise that authority?  14 A   Certainly it is more difficult for me to exercise my  15 authority because I live outside of the territory.  16 But I do have ways of delegating my authority to  17 members of my house and I do that by asking my mother  18 Gwaans to represent me at feasts that are given by  19 other clans.  That's one form of delegation.  Or I can  20 delegate -- I have to take part in an activity for me  21 or I can delegate part of my authority to as Maas  22 Gaak.  2 3 THE COURT:  I didn't get that name.  24 A  Maas Gaak.  25 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's number 27 on the word list.  2 6 MR. JACKSON:  27 Q   What was the name after your mother, you delegated to  28 somebody else?  2 9 A   K'amx tsi kaax, that's James Ryan.  30 Q   What is his position in your house?  31 A   He is a wing chief in my house.  So is Gwaans, so is  32 Maas Gaak.  Again also delegate part of my authority  33 to Gwa'aa maats, a wing chief in my office.  34 Q   That's Dora Johnson?  35 A   Yes, Dora Johnson.  'Niitsxw, Larry Moore.  36 MR. JACKSON:  Those names are all on our word list, my lord.  37 Would it assist you to have those numbers at this  38 point.  39 THE COURT:  Yes, I will have to have them, a name or a number.  40 THE TRANSLATOR:  'Niitsxw was 29, Gwa'aa maats is 12, Maas gaak  41 is 27, K'amx tsi kaax is number 19 and Gwaans is --  42 THE COURT:  I have Gwaans.  Thank you.  4 3 MR. JACKSON:  44 Q   Would you, in making a decision, would you normally  45 make that decision yourself, decision affecting your  46 house?  47 THE COURT:  Do you mean a decision to delegate or a decision? 5012  J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief By Mr. Jackson  1 MR. JACKSON:  No, I wasn't talking about a decision to delegate,  2 but in general --  3 Q   When you have to make a decision as Hanamuxw, did you  4 make that decision on your own?  5 A  When you are a chief it's necessary for you to do  6 both.  There would be occasions when you have to make  7 the decision alone.  But basically speaking, we make  8 our decisions collectively, because that's part of the  9 tradition of the Gitksan law, that consultation has to  10 take place within your own house, it has to take place  11 within your wil'na t'ahl, it has to take place with  12 the other clans as well wil'na t'ahl.  That's at the  13 village level.  But you can also go to the other  14 villages too and go through the same process as well.  15 So the network can sometimes be very large or just  16 confined to your own village.  17 Q   What would determine whether the consultation was  18 confined to, say, your house as opposed to a  19 consultation which involved all the other chiefs or  20 all the other villages?  21 A  Well, certainly outside of the larger -- I will start  22 with the larger network.  The consultation would be  23 based on an issue that would affect all of the  24 villages and then you would have to consult all of the  25 villages.  26 Q   What would be an example of that sort of --  27 A   Certainly our land claims is one example, a very good  28 example of how the network of consultation would take  29 place before we can jointly or collectively decide  30 that we are going to take this action.  31 At the village level, certainly you can do your  32 consultation that would involve all the clans or just  33 your own wil'na t'ahl or it could be related only to  34 your own house.  And I guess the most important one  35 that you would have to deal with has to do with the  36 selection of a chief, that would be one example, where  37 consultation would start at your house level and  38 certainly it would go to your wil'na t'ahl, certainly  39 would go to your wilksiwitxw.  I am not sure whether  40 that answers that question.  41 Q   In terms of you dealt with decisions which affect, as  42 it were, all the Gitksan houses, decisions which might  43 affect the clans or the village, what would be the  44 kind of decision which would be centred, as it were,  45 at the house level?  46 A   Certainly the members who would receive names, like we  47 have names that are strictly for boys and certainly 5013  J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief By Mr. Jackson  1 strictly for girls, and you have to make a house  2 decision when is the right time for the children of  3 the house are ready to receive those names.  So that  4 would be one example where we would have a house  5 meeting.  Certainly we would have to have a house  6 meeting when we want to put on a feast, when the date  7 has to be set, so that the members of your house  8 prepare all the things that they would need to put on  9 that feast.  10 Q   On that particular issue, I would like you just to  11 direct your mind to this question:  As you have given  12 evidence, you live in Prince Rupert, and I am  13 wondering if you would explain to the court how you,  14 as a chief who is resident in Prince Rupert most of  15 the time, how do you fulfill your responsibilities as  16 a Gitksan chief within the feast system?  17 A   Part of it is solved by making many phone calls and  18 having a huge telephone bill.  Certainly part of it is  19 solved by delegating a lot of my plans to be handled  20 by Gwaans, Maas Gaak, K'amxtsi kaax, if necessary, and  21 they would make the formal arrangements for me and it  22 may require on my part to make trips back to  23 Gitsegukla before the feast but basically the  24 preparation would be handled by K'amxtsi kaax and Maas  25 Gaak.  Certainly I have received a lot of support from  2 6 Gwis gyen.  27 Q   That's Stanley Williams?  28 A   That's Stanley Williams, yes.  He would help out if  29 necessary when it's time to invite people to the  30 feast, he would assist Maas Gaak in issuing the  31 invitations to the chiefs.  32 Q   Is the process of delegation which you described, that  33 is something which is consistent with your  34 understanding of Gitksan law on the way in which a  35 chief can discharge their responsibilities?  36 A   Yes.  That's a normal part of our process in dealing  37 with the types of issues or certainly different types  38 of requirements that we have within our laws,  39 certainly what is happening when I delegate to Maas  40 Gaak is that I am training him as to how the Gitksan  41 person is to organize, a Gitksan person within a house  42 is to organize a feast.  So, in a sense, by asking him  43 to do certain jobs for me before putting on a feast,  44 in essence, I am saying this is how we do it, and I am  45 expecting you to fulfill this responsibility.  So in  46 essence it's a training programme for him and it goes  47 as well for all the other members of my house and 5014  J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief By Mr. Jackson  1 certainly within the feast hall too, there are certain  2 rules and regulations that you have to know and it's  3 at the feast hall where the members of the house get  4 practical experience that they need in order for them  5 to learn what those rules and regulations are.  So, in  6 a sense you are setting up practical experience for  7 them to be able to use the rules and regulations of  8 the Gitksan people, especially in the House of  9 Hanamuxw.  10 Q   When you delegate or rely upon other members of your  11 house, do you have to tell them specifically what it  12 is they have to do?  13 A   Yes.  We certainly believe in a division of labour, we  14 certainly recognize very strongly that each individual  15 arrives in this world with different kinds of skills  16 and we try and capitalize on it.  And so you, as a  17 chief, when you look at the members of your house you  18 take that into consideration when you assign duties to  19 them.  And, yes, you do give specific orders saying  20 that if you are going to need 500 loaves of bread,  21 that's the order you give to one member of your house  22 to order for you.  Or if you are going to need 300  23 towels, then that's what you say to them, they have to  24 go out and find ways of finding 300 towels for you and  25 you have to make sure too that you are going to give  26 them enough time to be able to acquire that.  27 Q   Can you give the court an example of how you as  2 8 Hanamuxw have worked with members of your house and  29 with your wil'na t'ahl in organizing a feast which, as  30 it were, describes how you have delegated and how you  31 have worked with those members while maintaining your  32 position as a teacher in Prince Rupert?  33 A   This process takes place not only when I am putting on  34 a feast but also when I am going to take a part in  35 other feasts in a house of Giskaast, the same kind of  36 delegation takes place.  Because even when you are  37 taking part in the feast of another house you are  38 still required to prepare food, to bring gifts that  39 would be distributed at the feast so you still have to  40 place an order for someone close to or at least in  41 your territory to be able to get these ready.  One  42 example I can give about my own house is when we put  43 up the stone for uncle Jeffery.  44 Q   This is the former Hanamuxw?  45 A   The former Hanamuxw, where I had to depend on a lot of  46 the members of my family to organize the feast for me,  47 I also have to depend on my in-laws to help me out. 5015  J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief By Mr. Jackson  1 They are assigned a role to do some of the cooking for  2 me, to help wrap up some of the gifts that are to be  3 distributed.  Some of them had to go to the bank and  4 make sure that I have the right denominations of the  5 bills that are going to be used within the feast when  6 the monetary gifts are given out to the chiefs.  7 Certainly, I had to depend on some of my wilksiwitxw  8 to help me out as well.  9 Q   Did they have a particular role, the wilksiwitxw, in  10 terms of that feast?  11 A   Usually they give me monetary support as well.  But  12 when you don't ask they give it to you automatically.  13 But some of my wilksiwitxw had to sing the songs from  14 my father's house, to indicate or to demonstrate to  15 the public that they approve of my feast and of my  16 concern that the headstone for Hanamuxw was put in  17 place over the grave.  18 Q   At that feast, were speeches made by chiefs in your  19 house, in your wil'na t'ahl?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Who made those speeches?  22 A  Which is the normal procedure at the feast.  23 Certainly, for my own house, Gwaans made a speech to  24 the people for coming and honouring the invitation to  25 this particular feast.  I thanked all my workers, I  26 also made a speech, I thanked all my workers for the  27 work they had done, carrying out all the  28 responsibilities of preparing the food and the gifts  29 for the guests, for ensuring that the hall was ready,  30 and that the chairs and tables were placed where they  31 should be, because we do have particular tables for  32 particular clans within the feast hall.  And those had  33 to be in place.  And when it came time to describe the  34 territory, and the power of Hanamuxw, it was left to  35 Gwis gyen to explain that to the gathering.  36 Q   And was that in accordance with Gitksan law that Gwis  37 gyen would be the one to describe the territories for  38 Hanamuxw in the headstone feast?  39 A   Yes.  It's part of one of the characteristics I  40 explained yesterday that you have to honour your  41 elders, certainly in my house, my mother Gwaans and  42 Gwis gyen are the ones that I consider to be my  43 historians and keepers of the Gitksan laws within the  44 house of Hanamuxw.  And this is a normal procedure,  45 there is nothing unusual about that.  46 Q   Where you are required, under Gitksan law, to define  47 or describe the territories of Hanamuxw, who would you 5016  J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief By Mr. Jackson  1 rely upon to do that in a feast situation?  2 A   Certainly Gwis gyen and if Gwis gyen is not there,  3 certainly my mother Gwaans would do that.  Their  4 knowledge of the territory is extensive and certainly  5 they are respected as authorities on this issue by the  6 other chiefs.  7 Q   Outside of the context of a feast, if you are required  8 to define, describe the territories, fishing sites of  9 Hanamuxw, would you delegate that authority?  10 A   Because I am outside of the territory, really, I have  11 no choice but to delegate that authority to my mother,  12 Gwaans.  13 Q   Would you delegate that to anyone else?  14 A   If Gwaans was not there, certainly a member of my own  15 house, I would delegate that to, or if I don't have  16 anyone available from my house certainly Gwis gyen  17 would do it for me.  18 Q   Just in terms of clarifying the -- where was the  19 headstone feast of Jeffery Johnson held?  20 A   It was in Gitsegukla.  21 Q   When was that?  22 A   That was November of '85.  23 Q   In addition to those feasts where you would delegate  24 responsibilities for attendance to Gwaans or other  25 members of your house, have you participated in feasts  26 yourself, other than the headstone feast you have  27 described, within the Gitksan territories?  2 8 A   Yes, I have.  29 Q   I am showing you a list here -- and, my lord, there is  30 a copy -- I have got a mark with a squiggle here,  31 that's all -- and I am producing for you a list, is  32 that a list which you have compiled and does that list  33 show the feasts which you have yourself personally  34 attended as Hanamuxw since November, 1985?  35 A   Yes.  Yes.  This is a list that I have compiled saying  36 that these were the feasts that I actually attended in  37 person, where I have not delegated my authorities to  38 Gwaans to attend a feast on my behalf.  39 MR. JACKSON:  I would like to enter that as the next exhibit, my  40 lord.  41 THE COURT:  Yes.  The exhibit number?  42 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 375 my lord.  43  44 (EXHIBIT 375:  LIST OF FEASTS ATTENDED BY HANAMUXW)  45  4 6    MR. JACKSON:  47 Q   At the headstone feast of Jeffery Johnson, was any 5017  J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief By Mr. Jackson  1 announcement made regarding totem poles?  2 A   Yes, there was an announcement made about totem poles.  3 Q   Could you indicate what that was?  4 A   That in the future the House of Hanamuxw was going  5 to -- okay, I am going to have to say that there are  6 two poles.  The first pole -- the first pole was going  7 to be repaired, so that crests remain as they were  8 because the quality of the wood is deteriorating.  9 Q   That first pole, what pole is that one?  10 A   That's the one that was in front of our house and was  11 taken down.  12 Q   Whose pole was that?  13 A   That was Hanamuxw's pole.  That one has been in the  14 village of Gitsegukla for quite a number of years.  15 That pole was repaired in 1945 by Jeffery Johnson and  16 was placed in front of his House in Gitsegukla, then  17 the second pole is a new pole, new in the sense that  18 it is going to be new wood but it's going to contain  19 the same crests as the original pole, because I am the  20 one that is going to be putting up or at least putting  21 up that pole.  My father's crest had to be down,  22 placed at the bottom, to indicate to the people in the  23 future that it was this Hanamuxw that had prepared  24 that pole.  Wil'na t'ahl's crest must be at the  25 bottom.  26 Q   What is the significance of the raising of a pole of  27 the former Hanamuxw, Jeffery Johnson, and the raising  28 of your pole, the present Hanamuxw?  29 A   First and foremost, it means that what I am doing now  30 is preserving the past for the nieces and nephews that  31 we have now and the future members of my family.  Also  32 following the tradition that is required for the chief  33 that you put up your own pole, which indicates that  34 there is continuity in the history of the house, and  35 that putting of the pole indicates that you intend to  36 maintain that link with the past, it means that you  37 are careful about preserving the history of the house.  38 One way of ensuring that the history is there.  It  39 also indicates too that you do have a house.  I mean,  40 without the pole it certainly would be difficult to  41 identify the House of Hanamuxw because your pole  42 records experiences of your house.  It's like a  43 history book of your house.  It's evidence that  44 Hanamuxw's house did exist, does exist and will  45 continue to exist.  So maintaining your poles is  46 really important.  It's a very important evidence in  47 the Gitksan Nation, that you are what you are. 501E  J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief By Mr. Jackson  1 Q   As someone, a school teacher, who has been educated  2 both as a Gitksan chief and someone who is an educator  3 of children both Indian and non-Indian, can you make  4 any comparison for the court between the history that  5 you have talked about which is represented in the  6 totem poles and the history in the text books with  7 which -- which are part of the curriculum of the  8 non-Indian society?  9 A   I need clarification on this question.  You mean, you  10 are saying the content?  11 Q   The quality of the history.  12 A   Quality of the history?  In terms of whether it's  13 positive or negative?  14 Q   No, no.  I will ask the question again.  15 You have said that the totem pole represents your  16 history, is there anything different for you in how  17 that history is presented than if it were written down  18 in the history book, a written source of history as  19 opposed to the history which is in the pole?  20 A   It's our only way of recording our history, it's  21 pictorial rather than verbal and, in some ways, it's  22 very difficult to erase because it has been carved in  23 wood, it takes a long period of time to change it,  24 it's our form of keeping a permanent record of our  25 history.  Certainly, it doesn't have as many pages as  26 a book has.  The crests have their own meaning, just  27 like any other book, there is certain types of  28 information that you gain from a written record.  The  29 same is true of the pictorial representations that you  30 have in your pole, they have meanings and people who  31 know the poles will be able to tell you what those  32 crests mean on a pole.  So, I am saying that there is  33 a parallel, but maybe not to the same extent as a  34 history book, and that you would gain just as much  35 information from it as you would a text book, even  36 though the length of your pole may not be as long as  37 the pages in a book.  38 Q   I won't ask you whether it's a more economical way of  39 recording history then.  40 Let me change the topic.  You gave evidence before,  41 both in terms of your training as a chief and in terms  42 of giving your responsibilities, that there was --  43 spiritual strength was a quality.  Can you explain the  44 relationship between spiritual strengths and the  45 duties of a Gitksan chief?  46 A   In listing qualifications for a chief I mentioned that  47 one of the first things that they look for in a person 5019  J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief By Mr. Jackson  1 that is being prepared for chief is the idea that you  2 could accept the concept of a creator, the concept of  3 the creator is your guide, your protector, your source  4 of wisdom and to our people it is really important  5 that you incorporate those ideas into your life, that  6 you acknowledge the creator on a daily basis and that  7 you seek his guidance in the activities that you, you  8 have to undertake.  And to ask him to protect you on a  9 daily basis and to go with you wherever you go.  And  10 to make sure that the decisions that you make, your  11 conduct, is in accordance with what we consider to be  12 acceptable to our creator.  13 Q   Is there any special training or any special way in  14 which you prepare yourself to gain that spiritual  15 strength?  16 A   Certainly by listening to our elders is one way of  17 gaining understanding of what we mean by our spiritual  18 values.  One of the ways in which you incorporate into  19 your life is to exercise every day, one of the ways in  20 which you try and enhance the presence or increase the  21 presence of the creator in your life is to prepare  22 your body, your mind and your spirit, and you do that  23 or one form of doing that is by fasting, and this is  24 where guidance from your creator is very important,  25 the length of time that you do your fasting depends on  26 the instructions that you get from your creator, so it  27 may be for a short period of time, it might be a  28 fairly lengthy time, but at all times you are  29 protected by him.  30 Q   Do you yourself engage in that, in fasting?  31 A  At times, yes.  32 Q   You gave evidence yesterday afternoon that as a young  33 child you spent time, you went out into the  34 territories of your father and that you were involved  35 in fishing with your grandfather on the Skeena, did  36 you, as a young child, spend time on the territories  37 of Hanamuxw?  38 A   Certainly on one of them, yes.  39 Q   Which territory is that?  40 A   That would be the one near Carnaby.  41 Q   The territory near Carnaby.  42 A   That's Gwaans' territories.  43 Q   That's the territory of Gwaans described in her  44 evidence?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   As a young child did you go out onto any other  47 territory of Hanamuxw? 5020  J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief By Mr. Jackson  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  No.  You gave evidence that, I believe it was a, at the age  of 13 you went to -- away from home to school?  A   Yes.  Q   And your evidence is that since that time you in fact  have been involved in your educational endeavours and  in your work as a teacher, and the work based in  Prince Rupert, have you since that time gone out on to  the other territory of Hanamuxw, the territory not at  Carnaby?  A   No, no.  Q   Is there anyone in your house who is responsible for  the Carnaby territory in terms of Gitksan law?  A   I am going to have to include the two territories in  this question.  Q   I am sorry, I should have expanded that to the two  territories.  A   Yes, when the decision was made that I was going to be  the one to take the name Hanamuxw, part of the  provision that was made on November 1st, 1966, was  that my brother James, K'amxtsi kaax, was going to be  given or, I am sorry, was given the responsibility of  taking care of the territories for me.  And there were  reasons for that.  THE COURT:  I am sorry, did you say who was given that  responsibility?  A   K'amxtsi kaax, my brother James.  THE COURT:  For both territories?  A   For both territories, yes.  MR. JACKSON:  What number is that?  THE TRANSLATOR:  Number 19.  MR. JACKSON:  Q   And you have already said your brother James is a wing  of your chief?  A   Yes, he is one of the chiefs of my house.  There were  very practical reasons for doing that.  One was I am a  female chief, and this is one of the ways in which the  wil'na t'ahl wanted to protect me, for if I was to go  out on the territory myself I may meet up with danger.  The second to me is the most important one, and that  is James has been given the responsibility of training  my nephews to know the boundaries of the territory,  not just my nephews but also the other members of my  house, the male members of my house.  And he has done  that, he has been training the other members of the  house to know the boundaries of the territories of  Hanamuxw. 5021  J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief By Mr. Jackson  1 Q   Does your brother, as the caretaker of the  2 territories, report to you regarding the territories?  3 A   Yes, he brings the reports to me, he will tell me the  4 number of times he has been out there, either with  5 myself or with my nephews and if he wants to take his  6 friends along too, that's fine, he will take them  7 along too.  Sometimes he will bring me food that comes  8 from the territories.  9 Q   Are there other -- you mentioned your nephews, are  10 there -- who would these be who would go out on to the  11 territories, as it were?  12 A  Andrew Clifton and Jamie Clifton.  13 Q   What is their --  14 A   They are the sons of my sister Barbara.  15 Q   Just to clarify this, James, in relation to your  16 family lineage, he is your brother, what's his  17 position in the family?  18 A   James is, according to Gitksan law, James would be my  19 successor as a chief, so in taking care of the  20 territory he is a chief in training.  21 Q   You mentioned that your brother gives you information,  22 gives you food from the territory, could you tell the  23 court whether or not you maintain any involvement with  24 the territories in terms of fishing activities?  25 A   Line fishing, yes, not necessarily net fishing.  2 6 Q   Could you explain what your involvement is with  27 fishing within Gitksan territory?  28 A   I thought your question started out by saying it was  29 in my territory.  30 Q   Well —  31 A   I mean, I just want to clarify that.  I may have  32 missed a word in what you were saying.  33 Q   Let me ask you, what is your involvement with fishing  34 within the territories of Hanamuxw or the territories  35 of your father's side?  36 A   Okay.  There were two parts to the question.  37 Q   I didn't make myself clear.  38 A   Not the first time around.  I thought I heard the  39 second part of it, yes.  40 Certainly, within my own territory, we don't always  41 fish with a net but we will go and do what I call line  42 fishing, fish with a line and then take some trout out  43 of the river.  If we go to my father's territory, then  44 certainly we get our salmon from Lax'wii t'in, I  45 mentioned that yesterday.  46 Q   That's one of the fishing sites --  47 A   That's one of the fishing sites of my father, known 5022  J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief By Mr. Jackson  1 for spring salmon.  And we get a lot of spring from  2 that fishing hole, to the place of Haalus, when he was  3 alive, that he would bring the salmon to my mother's  4 house, where the process would take place.  We would  5 can the salmon that would come from that fishing hole,  6 or we would freeze it, depending on the purpose we  7 need that fish for.  8 Q   Do you and have you over the years, since taking the  9 name, gone back to Gitsegukla or Kitwanga to  10 participate in the processing of fish yourself?  11 A   Nearly every summer I do spend a few weeks in  12 Gitsegukla, helping mother to process food that has  13 been given to us by wil'na t'ahl and wilksiwitxw.  14 Q   And that process would involve what?  15 A   Canning the fish, cleaning it and making sure that we  16 use up all of the fish that is given to us.  That's  17 one of the other things we are trained to do is that  18 we don't waste any part of the fish if we can possibly  19 utilize it in our menus, we certainly do.  20 Q   Would that fish processing, would that take place  21 principally at your mother's house in Gitsegukla?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   Would you spend any time when you go back into the  24 territories on your father's territory in Kitwanga?  25 A   Yes.  Sometimes I would go out and look for soap  26 berries or I will look for huckleberries, depends on  27 the part of the summer that I am up there.  Berries  28 don't ripen all at once so depends what I can get at a  29 particular time.  30 Q   You will participate in that berry picking activity?  31 A   Yes, any excuse to get out in the outdoors.  32 Q   In terms of, again, the resources of the territory, in  33 addition to fish which you yourself are involved in,  34 in processing, I would like to ask you whether you  35 receive any food, any fish, berries from the  36 territories, from other people?  And perhaps we could  37 start with fish, do you receive any fish from other  38 people?  39 A   Yes, certainly, some of my wil'na t'ahl will give me  40 some from Gitsegukla, will give me some fish, yes.  41 Q   Can you give some examples of that?  42 A   Sometimes from the house of Guxsan, I will get some  43 fish.  Certainly from Kitwancool, from my wilksiwitxw,  44 and they would bring salted fish or --  45 Q   That's Lelt?  46 A   No, Xamlaxyeltxw.  47 THE TRANSLATOR:  That's number 85 on the list. 5023  J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief By Mr. Jackson  1 MR. JACKSON:  85 on the plaintiffs' list.  2 THE COURT:  Thank you.  3 A   Or he may buy food from another territory and bring it  4 to us, if he is -- if it's in the Nass River area and  5 it's this time of year, he will bring oolichans or if  6 he is down at the coast, if it's the time of year when  7 you get herring eggs, he will bring herring eggs.  So,  8 my supply for food comes from many sources, my supply  9 of food from the land comes from many sources.  10 Q   And it comes from your father's side and your mother's  11 side also?  12 A   Yes, my mother's side also.  13 Q   Do you receive any fish from members of the family of  14 the former Hanamuxw?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And who would that be?  17 A   That is Gwoimt, which is Elmer Johnson.  18 Q   Arnold Johnson and Elmer Johnson?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   They are in what house?  21 A   Just checking the pronounciation.  Gwoimt.  22 THE TRANSLATOR:  Number 21 on the plaintiff's list.  2 3 MR. JACKSON:  21.  24 Q   And is it appropriate -- of course they are not in  25 your house, is it appropriate that they would give you  26 fish?  27 A   Yes.  Because their father was Hanamuxw and so even  28 though I am, we don't have a term for it, it's still  2 9 the same as and Gmnigwootxu and that would be the  30 purpose of giving me the fish.  31 Q   Do you receive, in addition to fish you have received  32 from your father's side and your mother's side and as  33 you described from the family of the former Hanamuxw,  34 do you receive any berries from them, from anyone?  35 A   Yes.  Most of the berries that I would receive would  36 come from Sinankxws, that is Fanny Williams, she is a  37 wing chief in Haalus.  38 MR. JACKSON:  That number, Miss Stevens?  39 THE TRANSLATOR:  693.  4 0 Q   And what would she give you?  41 A   Sometimes she will give me huckleberries or it could  42 be soap berries, sometimes it would be wild  43 raspberries, which she will have collected from the  44 territory.  Sometimes it will be wild crabapples from  45 her own backyard, and she says if you don't believe  46 me, she left an open invitation the other day saying  47 you are wellcome to come to her back door to pick your 5024  J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief By Mr. Jackson  1 own crabapples to make your own jelly.  Sometimes her  2 version of an Indian fruit cocktail, she will leave  3 jars with either mother or with me.  It's part of the  4 sharing that our families are encouraged to do.  It's  5 part of her way of looking after me.  That's part of  6 the job of wilksiwitxw to make sure that you are well  7 provided for.  8 MR. JACKSON:  Would it be appropriate to take the break?  9 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  2 o'clock, please.  10  11 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCH)  12  13  14  15  16 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  17 a true and accurate transcript of the  18 proceedings herein to the best of my  19 skill and ability.  20  21  22  23  24  25 Wilf Roy  26 Official Reporter  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON RECESS) 5025  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1  2 THE REGISTRAR:  Calling Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen,  3 at bar, my lord.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Jackson.  5 MR. JACKSON:  Thank you, my lord.  6 Q   Chief Hanamuxw, just before we broke for lunch you had  7 mentioned that of the people who supplied you with  8 fish some of these are members of your wil'na t'ahl.  9 Could you indicate for the court who they would be?  10 A   Sammy Williams, Gwis gyen, would bring fish to  11 mother's house.  Xsgo gimlaxha's house would bring  12 fish to us in the person of Vernon Williams from  13 Gitsegukla.  14 MR. JACKSON:  Xsgo gimlaxha is number 87 on the list, my lord.  15 THE COURT:  Thank you.  16 MR. JACKSON:  17 Q   Also before the luncheon, perhaps appropriately, you  18 made a reference to Gitksan fruit cocktail.  Could you  19 explain exactly what that is?  20 A  Well, usually it's preserving two different -- two or  21 three different kinds of berries at the same time, or  22 in the same jar.  So it's equivalent to the kind of  23 fruit cocktail that you would buy in the store except  24 that the content would be from the land of Sinankxws.  25 Q   Thank you.  Do any other members of your house who  26 live outside of the territories receive food from  27 either members of the House of Hanamuxw or members of  28 the wil'na t'ahl?  29 A   Certainly my sister Beverly Alexander who lives in  30 Seattle will get the same kind of food given to me  31 from Sinankxws.  That she will set aside a portion for  32 my sister Beverly Alexander, or for my sister Barbara  33 Clifton, or for my brothers Don, James and Eric.  34 Q   They don't -- they live within the territories?  35 A   They live within the territory.  It's her  36 responsibility, as I said before lunch, that as our  37 wilksi witxw she makes sure -- she makes certain that  38 we are well provided for.  39 Q   Okay.  Your sister Barbara, has she ever supplied food  40 from outside of the territories?  41 A   Yes.  Through her in-laws from Hartley Bay that she  42 would bring herring eggs that she had obtained from  43 her in-laws, clams, seaweed, cockles.  Those would be  44 the food items that she would bring to mother's house.  45 Q   The —  46 A   Or sometimes to my house.  47 Q   The -- in relation to your last response, when you 5026  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 receive fish and berries from within the Gitksan  2 territories how are they delivered to you?  3 A   Sometimes mother's house serves as a depot for -- for  4 our family.  That our wilksi witxw leaves the food  5 items at our house.  When we go there we can pick them  6 up.  Or sometimes they are delivered to us directly if  7 possible, or sometimes they are given to us at the  8 feast.  9 Q   This morning you gave some evidence of the  10 significance of the -- the raising of the totem pole  11 which your house plans.  Are there any other aspects  12 of that pole raising which you can talk about in terms  13 of the significance of that event in the life of your  14 house?  15 A   Certainly it's a way of maintaining the heritage  16 from -- from our grandfathers, and in making sure that  17 the pole is put up again.  We have taken it down to  18 restore it, and also to put a new one with an added  19 crest to indicate that it's my pole as opposed to the  20 previous owner.  It's a way of reaffirming and  21 confirming the Dax gyet of Hanamuxw.  It's a way of  22 establishing that the property of Hanamuxw has not  23 been abandoned, nor will it be in the future.  It's a  24 way of telling the other chiefs that the house is as  25 strong as it was before, and that it will continue to  26 exist because we do have a fair number of people in  27 our houses who will continue with the activities  28 within the House of Hanamuxw who will ensure that it  29 will continue in the future.  It's also a way of  30 releasing the spirits of those who have passed on.  31 It's a way of giving thanks for having had them in --  32 in your house.  It's a way of giving recognition to  33 the contributions that they have made to your house.  34 It's a way of acknowledging to our creator too the  35 privilege of having had them share their lives with  36 you.  It's a way of saying that we have completed the  37 business of caring for them.  It's a way of saying  38 that they have added a dimension to our lives.  And  39 when I say our lives I'm talking about the members of  40 my house, and to you as an individual.  And it's a way  41 of saying that we respect them, and we are saying that  42 they were important to us.  That's it.  43 Q   Chief Hanamuxw, your mother, Gwaans, gave evidence in  44 this court regarding the first salmon ceremony.  Is  45 that something which takes place in a contemporary  46 context?  Is it something which you yourself have  47 participated? 5027  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 A   Yes.  If I am in the territory when the first salmon  2 arrives I -- like all wildlife you can't always  3 accurately predict when they will arrive.  I would  4 say, yes.  And in the modern context it's a very  5 private type of ceremony.  You do it within the  6 confines of your home.  The first thing that you do is  7 you give thanks to your creator for providing you with  8 the salmon.  You ask him to protect the species.  You  9 ask him to replenish the species.  You ask the creator  10 to protect the fishermen as they go and harvest the  11 river that no harm will come to them.  And that you  12 ask forgiveness from your creator for having to  13 destroy the creatures smaller than you are in order  14 for your own life to be sustained.  That's it.  15 Q   This morning you gave in your evidence when I asked  16 you regarding -- I asked you how you exercised your  17 authority and you gave us as an example of a case in  18 which your authority is exercised in conjunction with  19 other chiefs the land claims and this case, initiation  20 of this case.  Are there any other examples which you  21 can tell the court regarding collective decision  22 making by the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en chiefs?  23 A   One other example that I can give you is the decision  24 made by the Gitwingax band to do a blockade on the  25 Canadian National Railway tracks.  The Gitwingax Band  26 had invited the chiefs from the other Gitksan villages  27 as witnesses to their decision to do the blockade.  It  28 was a collective decision to do the blockade.  And  29 when the action plan was going to be put into effect  30 I received a phone call from Ken Russell, who's the  31 chief councillor at Gitsegukla, asking me to attend a  32 meeting to finalize the plan to do the blockade.  At  33 the time I had a chest cold and found it was  34 impossible for me to return to Gitwingax for the  35 meeting, so the nearest person who could delegate my  36 authority was my brother James, K'amxtsi kaax, at  37 Gitwingax.  I explained to him what the meeting was  38 going to be about.  I explained to him what my  39 decision was with regard to this issue, that I  40 certainly would lend my support to the decision of the  41 Gitwingax to do the blockade.  He consented to sit in  42 on the meeting.  And he was able to work alongside the  43 members of the Gitwingax Band to do the blockade.  He  44 was an active participant in that action on my behalf  45 on behalf of the House Hanamuxw.  And I was getting  46 reports both from K'amxtsi kaax and Maas Gaak  47 regarding progress of that situation on a daily basis. 5028  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  THE  COURT  7  A  8  THE  COURT  9  A  10  THE  COURT  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  MR.  JACKS'  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  MS.  KOENI  47  This is your brother James and brother Don?  Along with television reports as well.  Yes.  Are there any other examples beyond that one?  Certainly the problem regarding the overlap of the  territories in the Nishga' territory.  :  I'm sorry.  Which territory?  Nishga'.  :  Nishga'?  Nishga'.  :  Oh.  Thank you.  At these meetings my mother, Gwaans, represented me,  or Maas Gaak.  I was able to attend personally a  couple of the meetings regarding the overlap, but they  certainly had more than four meetings regarding the  overlap.  That's another example of where the chiefs  had to have a collective stand on a declaratory issue,  and where it was important that the Gitksan chiefs  lend their support.  )N:  And are there any other examples which come to your  mind at this time?  Not at the moment.  I may have to think some more  about this particular question.  Now, I would like you to look at Exhibit 29, tab 2.  Would you look through that document.  Have you seen  that document before?  Yes, I have.  And have you reviewed it?  Yes, but I'm just double-checking now to see whether  all the information is down.  Is that document an accurate statement of the members  of the House of Hanamuxw?  Yes, to this point in time I would say it is.  And by  saying that I am hoping that I will have additional  members in the future.  Have you in your capacity as Hanamuxw ever agreed to  the regulation of fishing at the sites of Hanamuxw by  the Federal Government?  No.  And my reason for that is that it's my territory,  and the regulations that would apply to my territory  would have to be first of all my regulations, and then  to the larger issue the Gitksan regulations.  My  regulations have to coincide certainly with what the  Gitksan Nation considers to be their regulations for  governing everything connected with the territories.  5SBERG:  Excuse me, my lord.  I don't know if we are  going any further with this.  I simply rise to say 5029  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE COURT  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  THE  THE  that it is my understanding this area, as it appears  to be going directly to the jurisdiction of Federal  Government, is not properly raised in the pleadings  and should not be admitted into evidence.  I don't see  the relevance of this particular one to the social  system.  We are not really talking about the effect of  something that Fisheries may have done.  JACKSON:  My lord, I wasn't going to pursue this matter --  COURT:  All right.  JACKSON:  -- Beyond that single question.  COURT:  All right.  JACKSON:  But I don't accede to my friend's objection in  terms of it is a matter of the extent of the  authority, and I think it is properly a matter for  evidence.  Well, it may raise all kinds of problems of  paramountcy, and other things that I'm sure can be  heard in due course.  JACKSON:  On legal argument.  COURT:  The evidence is in, and the objection is noted, and  Mr. Jackson is going to move on to something else so I  won't trouble any of you, including myself, with any  further comment.  Thank you.  JACKSON:  Q   Yesterday afternoon at around this time when we  started on your evidence you had described your early  education and your early training as a Gitksan chief.  Have you taken any steps as part of your  responsibilities as a Gitksan chief to ensure that  other members of the House of Hanamuxw are educated in  the Gitksan way?  Yes.  I'll go back to the responsibility that K'amxtsi  kaax has with regard to training the nephews in my  house, and I can give you one particular example of  how we are coping with that at the present time.  James has taught Andy Clifton a great deal about the  territory.  I'm sorry.  This is James your brother teaching his  son?  James my brother, yes.  Teaching his son?  No.  Teaching his nephew.  His nephew?  Yes.  Is that your nephew as well?  Yes, he would have to be my nephew as well.  And the nephew's name?  A  THE COURT  A  COURT  A  COURT  A  COURT  A  COURT 5030  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 A  Andy Clifton Jr..  2 THE COURT:  Thank you.  3 A  Andy at the moment along with learning about our  4 territories from my brother James, K'amxtsi kaax, he  5 is presently taking a forestry course where he is  6 expanding his knowledge about forestry management so  7 that he would do a better job of taking care of the  8 resources on my territories.  The course he's taking  9 was organized by the tribal council on behalf of the  10 chiefs as a way of ensuring that forestry resources on  11 the territories are taken care of.  They wanted the  12 young people to have the technical skills that would  13 enable us to take care of the resources, to protect  14 them the best way that we know how, and to make sure  15 that we have forestry resources in the future.  This  16 is another example of where the request for education  17 is coming from the people, and seeking outside help to  18 make sure that education is given to the young people  19 for the benefit of the Gitksan Nation.  It is done  20 with the idea that the resources are important not  21 just to the people, not just the human resources, but  22 also to the animal resources as well, because if we  23 destroy the habitat of the animals, in essence, we are  24 destroying the animals as well.  25 Q   In terms of the adaawk, the history of your house,  26 have arrangements been made for the carrying on of  27 that part of Gitksan education?  28 A   Yes.  Certainly my mother, Gwaans, is doing that.  29 A   Certainly other members of the wil'na t'ahl like Gwis  30 gyen, for instance, every time we go to his house  31 there will be occasions when he will be telling us  32 about the rules and regulations of the Gitksan.  He  33 will be telling us about the adaawk.  Certainly our  34 wilksi witxw is responsible not just in training the  35 chiefs but also the other members of my family.  Our  36 wilksi witxw has a responsibility of ensuring all the  37 members in my immediate family have the same knowledge  38 as I have.  39 Q   In terms of the protocol, the correct behavior,  40 conducting oneself at a feast, have arrangements been  41 made -- are arrangements underway to ensure that  42 younger members of your house are educated in that?  43 A   Yes.  My mother, Gwaans, is doing that whenever we  44 sponsor a feast, or whenever the wil'na t'ahl sponsor  45 a feast.  It has also been part of my responsibility  46 too to inform the younger members of my family before  47 a feast is called on what I expect them to do when -- 5031  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 when we're at the feast hall.  2 Q   I would like you to -- could you look at Exhibit 29,  3 tab 9.  Could you identify for the court of whom is  4 that a photograph?  5 A  My great grandmother, Fanny Johnson.  6 Q   Chief Hanamuxw, is there a piece of the regalia which  7 belongs to the House of Hanamuxw which symbolizes the  8 role you have described of Hanamuxw as an ambassador?  9 A   Certainly the hat worn by my great grandmother, Fanny  10 Johnson.  11 Q   Do you have that hat in your possession?  12 A   Yes, I have my hat.  13 Q   Do you have that with you in court today?  14 A   Yes, I have.  15 Q   Could you show that -- that hat to the court?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And that is the same hat which is --  18 A   Yes.  It's the same hat that you see in this  19 photograph.  2 0 Q   Do you know how old that hat is, Chief Hanamuxw?  21 A   I can give you an approximate time.  From what we can  22 establish within our family this hat was before the  2 3 time of Johnny Hanamuxw.  24 Q   So going back in terms of those who have held Hanamuxw  25 could you just go back through your successors -- your  26 predecessors?  27 A   I'm not there yet.  28 Q   Your predecessors who have held the name of Hanamuxw  2 9 who would have worn that hat?  30 A   I don't think I could do it without the genealogy  31 chart.  32 THE COURT:  Well, look at the chart by all means.  33 THE REGISTRAR:  It's tab 2.  34 THE COURT:  Well, we're there already, aren't we, because she  35 said she got it from Jeffery Johnson.  36 MR. JACKSON:  Jeffery Johnson.  37 THE COURT:  And ahead of her could only be Johnny Hanamuxw, who  38 was, or I gather Fanny Johnson, would it not?  3 9 MR. JACKSON:  4 0 Q   Well, Fanny Johnson was Hanamuxw?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And before Fanny Johnson?  4 3 A   Johnny.  4 4 Q   Johnny Hanamuxw?  4 5 THE COURT:  Yes.  46  4 7 MR. JACKSON: 5032  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  1 Q   Chief Hanamuxw, have you in your mind lived up to the  2 responsibilities of the name of Hanamuxw when those  3 responsibilities were laid on you in 1966?  4 A   I have attempted to live up to the name of Hanamuxw by  5 continually attending as many of the feasts as  6 possible in my own territory, by continually  7 delegating my responsibilities to the members of my  8 house, by continuing to support the collective actions  9 of the chiefs on whatever issues that are important to  10 the Gitksan Nation.  I feel that in moving outside of  11 the territory I have lived up to one of the  12 expectations of Hanamuxw, that I am working with other  13 Indian groups to improve the lives of the Indian  14 people not only of the Gitksan territory, but also in  15 British Columbia as a whole.  I feel that I am  16 encouraging members of my family to continue to take  17 an active part in the businesses conducted by my  18 house.  I am living up to that responsibility by  19 encouraging that.  James is doing the training for me  20 for the nephews that I have in my house.  I'm living  21 up to it by saying that the history of the House of  22 Hanamuxw is to be preserved, and that whenever  23 possible the Dax gyet of Hanamuxw be reaffirmed.  And  24 that we do our public relations as much as possible  25 from the House of Hanamuxw making sure that the  26 message gets out to the other chiefs that our house is  27 firmly established within the Gitksan territory.  And  28 at the present time there is no sign that there would  29 be a demise of the House of Hanamuxw.  30 MR. JACKSON:  I'm wondering if we could take a break for a few  31 moments, my lord.  32 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  I have to take another adjournment  33 at three o'clock, but I'll be glad to stand down for a  34 moment.  35 MR. JACKSON:  Thank you.  36 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will take a short recess.  37  38 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS)  39  40 THE REGISTRAR:  Ready to proceed.  41 THE COURT:  Mr. Jackson.  42 MR. JACKSON:  Yes.  I just have one question more for this  43 witness, my lord.  44 Q   Chief Hanamuxw, when you were talking about the  45 blockade at CN at Gitwingax, who initiated the  46 meetings regarding that particular event?  47 A   Certainly it would be the chiefs, the hereditary 5033  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Jackson  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 chiefs of Gitwingax that would initiate that action,  2 complimented of course by the involvement of the  3 council band.  4 MR. JACKSON:  Those are all my questions, my lord.  5 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Mr. Plant, are you going  6 next?  7 MR. PLANT:  Yes, I think so.  8  9    CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT:  10 Q   Chief Hanamuxw, you've said just now that it was the  11 hereditary chiefs who initiated the meetings regarding  12 the blockade at the -- on the CN track.  Did you  13 attend those meetings?  14 A  My delegates did.  As I explained to you I had a cold  15 and couldn't come to the village.  I received a  16 personal invitation to attend the meeting, but with a  17 chest cold it wasn't impossible to be in Gitwingax.  18 Q   Would I be correct then in assuming your understanding  19 of who it was that had initiated the meetings has come  20 to you from what others have told you?  21 A   Certainly from the invitation that I received, the  22 person who issued the invitation explained to me who  23 had initiated the plan.  It was really important to  24 them.  It was really important for that person to  25 explain to me who initiated the plan for many of the  26 other chiefs know what Hanamuxw's stand will be if it  27 was not the hereditary chiefs that called that action  28 for that meeting.  Chances are the answer would have  29 been no rather than yes, I'm going to send a delegate  30 to your meeting, and that I will lend my support to  31 this action, this collective action that the Gitwingax  32 chiefs are seeking.  33 Q   Thank you.  When did this blockade occur?  34 A   This would be in December '85.  35 Q   You told us about Virginia Moore as you described her  36 as someone who had originally come from Tsimxsan  37 background, and who after a period of years now is  38 an -- after a period of years of living in Gitwingax  39 is now the kindergarten teacher in Gitwingax?  40 A   Nursery kindergarten.  41 Q   Nursery kindergarten?  42 A   Yes, that is correct.  43 Q   How many years did she live in Gitwingax in order to  44 acquire the necessary facility with Gitksan, the  45 language?  46 A   I would say her oldest child is 19.  She would have  47 been with the Gitwingax people approximately 21 years. 5034  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 Q   Is she the instructor in the nursery and kindergarten  2 school?  3 A  At the moment she is, yes.  She has full  4 responsibility of taking care of the program of the  5 school, the operation of the school.  The school is  6 not located as the same, or is in the same location as  7 the primary -- primary school in Gitwingax.  And when  8 I say primary it's Grades 1, 2 and 3.  9 Q   What are the languages or language in which she  10 conducts her classes?  11 A   The nursery kindergarten was planned as a bilingual  12 program, so instruction for part of the day would have  13 to be in Gitksan, and certainly part of the day would  14 have to be in English in preparation for teaching the  15 children how to read and write the English language.  16 Q   What are the subjects that are taught, if that's not  17 putting it too rigorously given that we are only  18 talking about a nursery kindergarten program?  19 A   The kindergarten program is not as tightly organized  20 as the -- as is the program for Grades 1, 2 and 3, and  21 all the other grade levels.  Their subjects tend to be  22 integrated, but the components of the program are  23 similar, or in some cases identical as the curriculum  24 for Grades 1 and 2.  The components that are stressed  25 in -- in the program would be science, social studies,  26 health, physical education, reading, certainly plenty  27 of opportunities to do oral -- oral work.  And this  28 usually involves taking small groups of children.  We  29 described having small groups of children working  30 together as centres.  So she would have different  31 centres within the -- within the room where the  32 children can or take in the activities.  Certainly  33 arithmetic is part of it, that they have to learn how  34 to count.  Certainly they have to learn manners that  35 they learn how to work together as a social unit.  36 They learn to respect opinions of each other.  They  37 learn to adapt to the idea of working in a group.  38 This is particularly true of children who come from a  39 family that has only a single child in it, and so it's  40 important that they learn the social skills of  41 interacting with others.  And this is the basis on  42 which the nursery program is organized.  It's a  43 prerequisite to kindergarten to get the children used  44 to the idea of having to work with other children,  45 learn the skills of listening, and yet at the same  46 time learning how to practice the skills of using the  47 English language so that they can be effective 5035  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 cummunicators within a group setting.  2 Q   Do the children have exposure to the Gitksan customs  3 and legends, the adaawk, the histories, songs, things  4 of that nature in the context of this program?  5 A   Certainly, yes.  6 Q   And does that exposure continue on into what I think  7 you called the primary school, and I'm assuming that  8 we're speaking of the school on the reserve at  9 Gitwingax?  10 A   Yes, I am.  I cannot give you a firm answer about that  11 one.  I was involved in designing the program for the  12 nursery and the kindergarten program, and certainly at  13 that point there was discussion as to whether the band  14 would continue with a plan of including the Grades 1,  15 2 and 3, and the school on the reserve.  And the plan  16 at the time was that whatever the content was at the  17 kindergarten level would definitely be included in  18 Grades 1 and 2.  I cannot say for sure whether that  19 plan has been carried out or not, because I just have  20 not checked with the band to see if they have gone  21 that far in their --  22 Q   The program at any rate for the kindergarten and  23 nursery education level does include exposure to the  24 things I mentioned a minute ago, the components of  25 Gitksan culture, if I may put it that way?  26 A   Yes.  I can skip Grades 1 and 2 and 3 and say that as  27 far as the curriculum is concerned as far as the  28 Provincial schools at the Grade 4 level that one has a  29 very strong content -- strong native content in its  30 social studies program.  And to my knowledge they do  31 include that in the high school where you have Grade 4  32 students attending right up to Grade 10.  And there's  33 a limited content in the high school curriculum for  34 Indian designs.  35 Q   You were asked to identify Exhibit 375, which is a  36 list of feasts that you've attended since November of  37 1985.  On the first page the first name there is Sam  38 Sampare.  39 A  M'hm.  40 Q   What house is he from?  41 A   From the frog clan.  42 Q   Do you know what the name of his house was?  Do you  43 know who the head chief of the house was that Sam  44 Sampare was in?  45 A   I'm going through -- sorry.  I'm going through my head  46 the names of the people.  I need to sort out the  47 people in my head. 5036  J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q   Well, you've had a minute or two to think about it,  Chief Hanamuxw.  Are you narrowing the options down?  A   Not quite, because I tend to have -- like I'm going  through the genealogies, and there are a couple of  areas where I tend to confuse them.  And I know I said  in my statement at the beginning that I'm going to  have to tell the truth, and I'm still trying to sort  that out.  Should we take the afternoon adjournment then, Mr.  Plant?  Yes,  THE COURT  MR. PLANT  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will recess,  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Peri McHale, Official Reporter  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 5037  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS)  JOAN RYAN, Resumed:  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT:  (Continued)  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  PLANT:  Q  COURT  PLANT  COURT  A  THE  COURT  A  THE COURT  MR. PLANT  THE  MR.  COURT  PLANT  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Ms. Ryan, could I ask you to turn to or have put  before you, Exhibit 29.  Are you leaving Exhibit 375?  Yes, I am.  Can I ask, where it says fence in several places,  does that mean feast?  Yes, feast for fence and headstone.  But I will give  you the answer to the one, I finally sorted out my  files in my head and the person who sponsored the  feast for Tsimxsan was Luukoon and that house is from  Kitwancool.  What I am really concerned about, it says in several  places headstone fence, does that mean headstone --  There should be a slash between the headstone and  fence.  Sometimes the feast is just for the headstone  alone, sometimes it's a combination of the headstone  and the fence.  I don't think, I may be wrong, I don't think I have  heard of a fence previously in this trial, though it  may have been mentioned.  The previous witness, Mr. Mathews, gave some  evidence about a fence feast.  I missed that.  Perhaps that does raise a matter that I -- that  might arise out of exhibit 375.  You also want me to refer to --  Not yet, because the question that his lordship asked  has suggested a question that I would like to pursue.  Firstly, do I understand you correctly that the  headstone feast and the fence feast, may occur as two  separate feasts?  Certainly, depends when the projects were completed.  Sometimes the fence feast will occur first before the  headstone or they can be done together.  Does the fence feast refer to the erection of a fence  around the tombstone in the graveyard?  Around the plot.  Around the plot?  Yes.  And certainly you can put the headstone inside  the fence. 503E  J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 Q   Yes.  There is also the funeral feast?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And am I correct in assuming that the funeral feast,  4 the headstone feast, the fence feast are, although  5 perhaps not in that order, the sequence of feasts that  6 occur after the death of a Gitksan person?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And that lead up to the taking of a name by the  9 successor?  10 A   Not necessarily.  The name can be transferred at the  11 funeral feast and the feast for the headstone or the  12 fence, or the combination of the headstone and fence,  13 can take place after the funeral feast.  It depends  14 really on the decision of the house.  If they have a  15 successor to the name, then the name is passed on to  16 that person at the funeral feast.  If they feel that  17 they do not have a suitable candidate for that title,  18 that title can be put aside temporarily until a  19 candidate is selected.  But that doesn't mean that  20 it's the end of the house, just because they put that  21 title aside while they are preparing the successor.  22 But that would have to be a decision of the house and  23 wil'na t'ahl and wilksiwitxu.  24 Q   In your case was the transfer of the rights and  25 responsibilities that go with the name Hanamuxw, was  26 that transfer to you complete on the occasion of  27 Jeffery Johnson's funeral feast in 1966?  28 A   Complete in the sense that I take full responsibility  29 and with the privilege of appointing my brother,  30 James, K'amxtsi kaax, as the caretaker of the  31 territory and also the privilege of appointing my  32 mother, Gwaans, as the historian for the House of  33 Hanamuxw and accepting the fact that Gwis gyen also be  34 the historian for the house of Hanamuxw.  35 Q   Was there something that remained undone?  36 A   Yes, certainly the establishment of a headstone was  37 left undone at the feast.  And this is normal, this is  38 not really unusual that the headstone is not or is not  39 part of the business that you conduct at the funeral  40 feast.  You make plans to establish the headstone and  41 the fence at the funeral feast, usually at that feast  42 you appoint someone who will take on the project of  43 building a fence, if it's necessary, if a fence is  44 already there in the family plot, then it's not  45 necessary for you to appoint someone to be in charge  46 of that project.  And also you can, at the same time,  47 appoint someone to purchase the headstone and make 5039  J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 sure it's established in a plot where the body has  2 been buried.  There are a number of things that would  3 determine exactly when those items are to be  4 completed, usually you establish a time line as to  5 when you think the projects are to be completed.  And  6 that's usually the responsibility of the house to  7 decide when these are done.  If they do have a person  8 appointed as successor to the deceased person, then it  9 would be his responsibility to appoint the person to  10 construct the fence, to purchase the headstone and  11 make sure that it is put in place.  So that's part of  12 the of the business you conduct at the funeral feast.  13 Q   If I can just interrupt there, when the headstone  14 feast for Jeffery Johnson was, you mentioned  15 eventually held in November of 1985, did that have any  16 consequence for your rights and responsibilities as  17 chief Hanamuxw?  18 A   No, because it was explained to the funeral feast that  19 the headstone would be established.  20 Q   And you had become a full chief, in every sense of the  21 word, at the funeral feast?  22 A   Oh, yes, yes.  23 Q   Now, I would like to ask you to turn to the book,  24 Exhibit 29, and in particular, the documents at tab  25 number three of that book, which are two in number.  26 The first is a head table of Gisk'aast, Gitsegukla and  27 Ganeda, and the second, if I am looking at the same  28 thing, is a document entitled Gisk'aast, table by the  29 door.  Now, you told us in your evidence, told the  30 court in your evidence about the importance of your  31 brother's, Don and James to you in the carrying out of  32 your functions as Chief Hanamuxw.  Could you identify  33 for me, where, if anywhere, on either of these two  34 seating charts those two gentlemen would be sitting?  35 A   James would be sitting right here.  36 Q   Across from you?  37 A  Across from me.  38 Q   And that's because he is your successor?  39 A   Yes, he is in line.  40 Q   And then your brother Don?  41 A  Would be here.  42 Q   You were pointing -- does he sit across from your  43 mother?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   Is there some uncertainty there?  Does he sometimes  46 have a seat on the other side of the table?  47 A   Depends, yes.  If James is not there then Don would be 5040  J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 there too.  2 Q   All right.  Just to explain what I think you have  3 done, so that it will appear on the record, if James  4 is not at a feast then Don will sit in James's seat  5 across from you?  6 A   Yes, across, yes.  7 Q   If you are not there, does your seat remain vacant or  8 does James move across to sit in your seat?  9 A   No, usually my seat, and this is the way they handle  10 it with the other chiefs, if you are not there, then  11 your seat is vacant.  12 Q   Now, if you are there, and James is there, where does  13 Don sit?  14 A   On this table.  15 Q   And that's the second table in the exhibit.  And where  16 does he sit at that table, across the table from your  17 mother?  18 A   Hm-hmm.  19 Q   Is that correct?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   What does your brother James's name mean in English,  22 if translated?  23 A   I am not too sure whether I can exactly translate it  24 in English.  There might be portions of it missing but  25 I will try.  The way I understand it it means you are  26 cutting it only with your teeth.  You don't have any  27 other tool to cut it with.  28 Q   Did that name exist in the House of Hanamuxw before  29 you became chief?  30 A   It has always been a part of the House of Hanamuxw.  31 Q   Chief Hanamuxw, by becoming a chief of the Gitksan, do  32 you acquire spiritual power?  33 A  We don't believe that you acquire spiritual power, we  34 feel that the spirit is always a part of you, right  35 from the start.  And it is up to you to develop and  36 strengthen that spiritual power.  37 Q   But does the same spirit, is the same spirit part of  38 every Gitksan person or is it limited only to those  39 who are chiefs or are destined to become chiefs?  40 A  We believe that every human being has a spirit so it  41 would be in every Gitksan person as well as anybody  42 else.  43 MR. PLANT:  Thank you very much, Chief Hanamuxw.  Those are all  44 my questions.  45 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I have no questions, my lord.  4 6    THE COURT:    Thank you, Mrs. Ryan.  You were excused.  47    THE COURT:  Sorry, I haven't asked Mr. Jackson if he wanted to 5041  J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  re-examine.  MR. JACKSON: Trying to deprive me of my moment of glory to stand  up and say I have no re-examination.  THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you, Mrs. Ryan.  (Witness aside)  MR. GRANT:  My lord, maybe Mr. Jackson should lead more  evidence, because the cross is much shorter than when  I lead evidence.  THE COURT:  Yes, it certainly is.  MS. KOENSIGBERG:   Don't take it personally.  MR. GRANT:  I don't take it personally.  MR. PLANT:  My lips are sealed.  MR. GRANT:  In any event, what has happened as a result of this  and as a result of the predictions and prognosis  between myself and Mr. Rush and anticipation is that  the next witness is not available.  We anticipated  that Mrs. Ryan would go until tomorrow afternoon, from  my earlier discussions both with Mr. Jackson and the  other witness.  I don't know if that is a good sign or  a bad sign.  It is near the end of the fourth week and  what I would propose is that my friend Mr. Plant had  this motion, this application, and that that  application could be heard on Friday morning as had  been planned.  I spoke with Mr. Rush today and he will  be dealing with that application.  If that's a great  difficulty for the court or my friend, then I could  try to reach Mr. Rush and see if we could readjust it  but I talked to him at noon.  I anticipated even then  that Hanamuxw's evidence would go until tomorrow noon.  THE COURT:  Mr. Plant, is it convenient for you to stand this  matter down then until Friday morning?  But I can say  that if it's convenient to Mr. Rush and Mr. Plant and  whoever else is involved, I could hear it tomorrow  instead of Friday.  MR. PLANT:  I prefer you hear it tomorrow but obviously I am  prepared to meet Mr. Rush's convenience.  THE COURT:  Well, you can communicate with the registry.  If you  can move it forward and have it tomorrow, and that's  convenient, I will hear it tomorrow.  Other than that  we can hear it Friday.  And in that case we wouldn't  be sitting tomorrow.  MR. GRANT:   All that we would have on the is then the  evidence --  THE COURT:  I have some mildly bad news for you, if we are going  to be down for an extensive period, I must ask counsel 5042  J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Plant  1 to remove things from the room.  Probably have to use  2 the room during that three week period.  So I think we  3 will not move the court exhibits out, Madam Registrar  4 will look after them.  But it may be necessary that we  5 will need the room.  6 MR. GRANT:  We anticipated that.  7 THE COURT:  You are excused and we will adjourn until 10 o'clock  8 on Friday, unless counsel can let me know they can  9 proceed tomorrow.  10  11 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED ACCORDINGLY)  12  13  14  15 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  16 a true and accurate transcript of the  17 proceedings herein to the best of my  18 skill and ability.  19  20  21  22  23  24  25 Wilf Roy  26 Official Reporter  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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