@prefix ns0: . @prefix edm: . @prefix dcterms: . @prefix dc: . @prefix skos: . ns0:identifierAIP "cd3995e5-2d3c-4e13-ade2-21c73d2a6acf"@en ; edm:dataProvider "CONTENTdm"@en ; dcterms:isPartOf "Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts"@en ; dcterms:creator "British Columbia. Supreme Court"@en ; dcterms:issued "2013"@en ; dcterms:created "1988-03-23"@en ; dcterms:description "In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, between: Delgamuukw, also known as Albert Tait, suing on his own behalf and on behalf of all the members of the House of Delgamuukw, and others, plaintiffs, and Her Majesty the Queen in right of the Province of British Columbia and the Attorney General of Canada, defendants: proceedings at trial."@en, ""@en ; edm:aggregatedCHO "https://open.library.ubc.ca/collections/delgamuukw/items/1.0019300/source.json"@en ; dc:format "application/pdf"@en ; skos:note " 4996 J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Jackson 1 Vancouver, B.C., 2 March 23rd, 1988. 3 4 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) 5 6 THE REGISTRAR: In Supreme Court of British Columbia. This 7 Wednesday, March 23, 1988. Calling Delgamuukw versus 8 Her Majesty the Queen, at bar, my lord. 9 I caution the witness and the interpreter you're 10 still under oath. 11 12 JOAN RYAN, Resumed: 13 14 THE COURT: Mr. Jackson. 15 MR. JACKSON: My lord, when we took the adjournment yesterday 16 afternoon Chief Hanamuxw had described the nature of 17 the field centres which are part of the NITEP program, 18 and I'll pick up the questioning from that point. 19 20 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. JACKSON: 21 Q What is the responsibilities of the advisory committee 22 in relation to the field centres you described 23 yesterday? 24 A The other responsibilities for the NITEP committee has 25 to do with the selection of the NITEP staff. We 26 usually advertise for the positions just like we do 27 for other positions for the staffing of the University 28 of British Columbia. Usually a sub-committee is 29 established from the advisory committee that would 30 accept the applications from the applicants. They 31 would review the qualifications of the people who 32 apply for the positions on the NITEP staff. They 33 would short list the people that they would like to 34 interview. And usually on the committee that deals 35 with the applications we would have a member of the 36 community in which the centre's located be on the 37 review committee, the director of NITEP, the 38 supervisor of NITEP, the co-ordinator for that centre 39 if that co-ordinator is still available, a student 40 from the area in which the centre is located. They 41 would go through all the applications and after 42 establishing who the candidate is for the position 43 they would make the recommendation to the whole 44 advisory committee who in turn will review the 45 qualification of that particular individual and set 46 out the terms of the contract under which that person 47 is to be hired. The advisory committee would vote on 4997 J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Jackson 1 this applicant, and if the majority on the committee 2 agrees that this is going to be the applicant to be 3 recommended to the Dean of Education then that name is 4 forwarded to the Dean who will either say yes or no 5 depending on whether he feels this person is going to 6 fit into -- into the staff of the university or 7 faculty of the university. So far we have not had one 8 recommendation turned down by the Faculty of 9 Education, but he still has that power to make the 10 final judgment, and if he says no then we can go back 11 and start the process over again. 12 Q But you say that has not happened? 13 A So far no within 14 years. 14 Q In addition to the establishment of field centres and 15 the admission and selection of staff what other heads 16 of responsibilities do you have as the advisory 17 committee? 18 A Before the students can be enrolled in the Faculty of 19 Education at the university our program director goes 20 through all the applications from the students. He 21 lists in detail for the senate the academic 22 qualifications of the students. From his list he 23 presents that information to the advisory committee. 24 We go through the list, and we either approve the list 25 or we ask the certain students be recommended to take 26 other training before enrolling in the Faculty of 27 Education. And then our program director presents 28 that to the senate just like any other students who 29 enroll at the University of British Columbia. 30 In addition to that the advisory committee also 31 deals with what we call re-admissions. Some of our 32 students for many different reasons cannot stay in the 33 program. One of them being financial, the other one 34 has to do with the process that they involve 35 themselves in. And I mentioned part of this yesterday 36 in my presentation, that there are times when our 37 students have difficulty sorting out their own values 38 and have to find a way of coping with that. And it 39 seems to indicate to us that this process of sorting 40 out your values and your own self-discipline and your 41 own interests is connected to whether you can handle 42 the program straight through or not. Our program is 43 designed so that there are exit points for our 44 students if they are experiencing personal problems 45 that have to do with sorting out their identity. Last 46 week I was involved in a committee meeting of this 47 advisory board and we re-admitted nine students for 499E J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Jackson 1 the coming year. Many of these students dropped out 2 about four years ago, three years ago, two years ago 3 and even just last year. 4 THE COURT: Sorry. Can I stop you for a minute and ask you 5 where are your field centres? 6 A There's one in Victoria, Chilliwack, Prince George, 7 Kamloops. 8 THE COURT: The closest one? 9 A Chilliwack is the closest one. 10 THE COURT: From here, but the closest one from the claim area 11 would be Prince George? 12 A That's right. 13 THE COURT: Yes. Thank you. 14 MR. JACKSON: 15 Q Does the advisory committee have any role in terms of 16 the shape of direction of programs? 17 A Yes. One of the things that we had to negotiate with 18 the university when the entry meets the program was to 19 request that the courses be taken not in the same 20 sequence as the regular program. And it took awhile 21 to establish that, because we have never had the 22 regular teacher training program rearranged to the 23 extent to which we wanted NITEP to be patterned. On 24 the part of the university it was chancy for them, but 25 it worked. 26 Q Okay. Is there any relationship between -- 27 A Let me just finish. 28 Q Sorry. I beg your pardon. 29 A The other thing that we do as an advisory committee is 30 to review the content of many of the courses that are 31 taken by our students. And our basic request to the 32 faculty members is that they have to look at the 33 background of our students and design the course 34 content to compliment and supplement the background 35 knowledge of our students in the program. And in most 36 cases this has been done. And the other thing we have 37 done is that we have made direct requests to the 38 faculty saying that we feel certain courses are really 39 important to our students, and this is where our 40 native education courses come in. The other one 41 change that we had requested had to do with the speech 42 arts, and we felt this was really important for our 43 students because English is the second language to 44 many of our students, therefore, they need to practice 45 if they are going to be effective cummunicators in the 46 classroom. This has never been done as part of the 47 regular teacher training program, and I'm happy to say 4999 J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Jackson 1 that this particular course is going to be included in 2 the new five year program that is being introduced at 3 the University of British Columbia. The speech arts 4 is going to be one of the required courses for teacher 5 trainees. 6 Q Does the advisory committee have any role vis-a-vis 7 Indian communities away from the university and the 8 university? 9 A Certainly we try to maintain the links with the Indian 10 community. We have to listen to the kinds of 11 requirements that they feel our communities need which 12 may not be identical to what the larger community 13 requires. And the university is doing its best right 14 now to respond to that request. They have expanded 15 the role of our advisory committee to include the 16 responsibility of being part of the First House of 17 Learning group that is being established in UBC The 18 responsibility of this First House of Learning is to 19 encourage as many post-secondary students from the 20 native communities to enter other programs. We feel 21 that when students leave the secondary school they 22 should be encouraged to further their education, and 23 we hope that this First House of Learning will 24 accommodate that need of the communities. One of 25 their responsibilities right now is to survey the 26 communities and see just what areas need to be looked 27 at and have courses designed to meet those needs. And 28 I guess one of the decisions that would have to be 29 made is whether this set of courses would be offered 30 on campus or whether they would be offered off campus 31 like NITEP, but that is a decision that is going to 32 come in the future. 33 Q You referred to the First House of Learning. Is that 34 the full title? 35 A Yes. 36 Q It's — I — 37 A You have -- sorry. 38 Q No. I understood, and perhaps my friends will permit 39 this, it's the First Nations House of Learning? 40 A Sorry. Okay. Yes. 41 Q Chief Hanamuxw, when you started work in the formation 42 and establishment of the NITEP program do you know how 43 many native teachers there were in British Columbia 44 approximately? 45 A This would be in 1974 and we had 26 qualified -- fully 46 qualified teachers in British Columbia. 47 Q Do you know how many teachers there were in British 5000 J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Jackson 1 Columbia generally at that point? 2 A 23,000 teachers in British Columbia. 3 Q Since the formation of the foundation of the NITEP 4 program how many people have graduated? 5 A We have 96 graduates from the program. These are 6 people with full degrees, but we have had close to 400 7 students enrolled in the program since its inception. 8 And one of the reasons for our low rate of graduates 9 has to do with the fact that once the students are 10 enrolled in NITEP and they discovered that they can 11 handle the university programs some of them have 12 transferred to other programs and have completed their 13 education in other areas. So even though our numbers 14 are low we have -- we have had an impact on other 15 programs. 16 Q Have any of the people, to your knowledge, graduated 17 from NITEP gone into the law school? 18 A Penny Desjarlais. 19 Q Yes. 20 A Yes. 21 Q Do you know of the 96 people who have graduated how 22 many of them have been from Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en 23 communities? 24 A Seven. 25 Q And could you tell me who is the program director for 26 NITEP at the present time? 27 A Roger Smith, and he's from Hazleton. 28 Q And is he a Gitksan person? 29 A He's a Gitksan person, yes. 30 Q Chief Hanamuxw, when I showed you the other day that 31 paper by Dr. Kirkness and Dr. McEachern, and in its 32 title it refers to the NITEP program as a paradigm, as 33 I recall the title. Do you have any knowledge of the 34 extent to which the NITEP program has been viewed as a 35 model in other -- outside of British Columbia? 36 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Are you asking about this paper or are 37 you asking about the program? 38 MR. JACKSON: I'm asking about the program. 39 A Certainly it's stated in this paper Dr. McEachern had 40 used this model in the Philippines. And we've had 41 people from Italy express an interest in the model of 42 this program, also people from New Zealand and 43 Australia as well. 44 MR. JACKSON: Perhaps your lordship in your sojourns in 45 Australia could make some inquiries on our behalf. 46 THE COURT: I'll make some inquiries and see if I can confirm 47 what's been said. As a matter of fact, I received a 5001 J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Jackson 1 call this morning from one of my judges, and who said 2 they are arguing an Aboriginal case in the -- what is 3 it called, the High Court of Australia? 4 MR. JACKSON: Yes. 5 THE COURT: The top court. 6 MR. JACKSON: Yes. 7 THE COURT: They are arguing a case as of yesterday. I'll make 8 some inquires about it. 9 MR. JACKSON: 10 Q Could you explain how you see the nature of the 11 relationship between the University of British 12 Columbia and NITEP? 13 A Certainly when we were considering establishing the 14 program we were very firm in saying that input had to 15 come from the Indian people, so that our advisory 16 committee was struck to illustrate that point that 17 most of the members on the committee had to be Indian 18 people from different parts of British Columbia, along 19 with the faculty members. We felt that if the program 20 is going to succeed it had to be a joint 21 responsibility, and that the exchange would have to 22 come from both directions at all times. We felt that 23 the university cannot work in isolation, and neither 24 can we. And it took a lot of politicizing to achieve 25 that point. And when we did we felt that the program 26 had to continue with the idea of having an advisory 27 committee that included Indian people. And that same 28 theory exists today. We feel that the university has 29 a lot of resources that they can offer such as the 30 buildings, the staff with the knowledge that our 31 students would need if they're going to become 32 successful teachers, the funding that would maintain 33 such a program, and yet at the same time we feel that 34 our people had resources that is necessary to maintain 35 the stability that is essential in establishing such a 36 program. They have the resources such as our own 37 adaawk, our songs, our legends, our spiritual beliefs, 38 our philosophy of life. And we felt that the students 39 need both if they are going to be successful 40 individuals throughout their lives. And we have tried 41 very hard to combine the two. 42 Q Could you explain to the court how you see your 43 continuing work with the NITEP program, and the work 44 in fact you've outlined for the court over the years, 45 how do you see that related to your role, your 4 6 authority as Hanamuxw? 47 A One of the requirements of a chief is that you are 5002 J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Jackson 1 expected to take care of your people and to improve 2 their lot in life, whatever that may take. And 3 certainly in my decision to be a part of this advisory 4 committee was based on this idea that I am expected as 5 Hanamuxw to help develop the skills of my people. 6 There's -- one of the things that we strongly believe 7 in is that the mind, the spirit, and the body must be 8 one, and they have to be aligned at all times. If 9 your education was segmented then you don't achieve 10 that. We feel that the whole person has to be 11 developed. That you don't deal just with the mind 12 alone in isolation. You also have to take into 13 consideration other needs of the individual, and that 14 you try and develop them totally as best you can. And 15 I feel that in doing this work I'm also fulfilling one 16 of the historical precedents started by my 17 grandparents that whenever we try to solve problems, 18 and I'm going to have to take you back to the time 19 when the four Houses of Gisk'aast were established in 20 Gitsegukla. The four houses of the Gisk'aast are, 21 Xsgogimlax ha, Gwis gyen, Hanamuxw and Wiigyet. 22 THE COURT: Pardon? What was the last one, please? 2 3 MR. JACKSON: Wiigyet. 24 THE COURT: Wiigyet. Thank you. 25 A I'm going to have to change one of those. I'm sorry. 26 I got confused. I was thinking ahead of myself. 27 Guxsan is the other one, not Wiigyet. 28 THE COURT: That's Guxsan as we call it, G-U-X-S-A-N? 2 9 A M'hm. 3 0 MR. JACKSON: Yes, my lord. 31 A When those four houses met a long time ago when they 32 were conducting their businesses of directing the 33 activities of the people it was always Hanamuxw who 34 had to make the announcements for the people, who had 35 to take the messages to the neighbouring tribes. And 36 based on that role of being the spokesperson for 37 Gisk'aast at my village I looked upon my involvement 38 with NITEP as fulfilling that responsibility of being 39 the spokesperson not just for the Gitksan people, but 40 for the Indian people of British Columbia, because 41 when we conducted meetings with B.C. NITEP we found 42 that many of the Indian people in British Columbia had 43 similar needs, had similar problems that need to be 44 taken care of. And so basically that was my 45 motivation in saying that I will work as hard as I can 46 to see that this program is established not just for a 47 short period of time, but for as long as our people 5003 J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Jackson 1 need this kind of program. 2 Q Are you familiar with the term ambassador? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Can you relate the work you have done as Hanamuxw to 5 your understanding of that term? 6 A Yes. I can relate to it in this way, I can say that 7 when you look at an ambassador usually that person is 8 a person who has with him his cultural values, his 9 spiritual values, and that's kind of the baggage that 10 he takes with him when he travels to new territories. 11 And as he enters those territories he certainly will 12 meet other people with a similar kind of 13 qualifications. And when you -- when you meet and 14 interact with those people you try and accommodate 15 their values, their spiritual beliefs in with yours, 16 combine them to make it stronger not only for your own 17 nation but for theirs as well, because you work 18 towards a common goal, and the stronger that you can 19 make your commitment to achieve that goal the better 20 it is for you and also for them. 21 Q Have any of the members of your house followed your 22 example in pursuing post-secondary education? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Could you — 25 A My brother Don has attended university. He has three 26 years of university in the field of accountancy and 27 economics. 28 Q Does he hold a name in your house? 29 A Yes. His name is Maas Gaak. 30 THE SPELLER: Number 27 on the word list. 31 THE REGISTRAR: Number 27 on the word list. 32 MR. JACKSON: 33 Q Is there anyone else in your house? 34 A Yes. I have a niece who graduated from Simon Fraser 35 last year with a full degree in her majors in 36 anthropology. I also have in my house the 37 granddaughter of Gwa'aa maats. 38 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Granddaughter? 39 A Granddaughter of Gwa'aa maats, yes. She graduated 40 from the NITEP program with a full degree. I have a 41 sister Barbara, Barbara Clifton, and her name is 42 Yagaaxe txw. 43 THE SPELLER: 807 on the word list. 801 I mean. 44 THE COURT: Is that the sister or the granddaughter? 45 A This is my sister Beverly -- or I'm sorry. Barbara 46 Clifton. 47 THE COURT: All right. Do we have a number for the 5004 J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Jackson 1 granddaughter, please? 2 THE REGISTRAR: 12, my lord, on the word list. 3 THE COURT: 12. Thank you. You were going to tell me about 4 Barbara Clifton. 5 MR. JACKSON: I think the name you were given is the name Gwa'aa 6 maats, which is the name of the grandmother of Leona 7 Thistle. 8 Q Is that correct? 9 A Leona is the granddaughter of Gwa'aa maats. 10 Q And Gwa'aa maats is in relation to your house? 11 A Is a wing chief in my house. 12 THE COURT: I haven't been told anything about your sister. 13 A I'm coming to it, my lord. 14 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 15 A My sister Barbara is taking courses that would prepare 16 her for accountancy, but not a full degree in 17 accountancy. She has taken some courses that would 18 qualify her for a counselling position in the 19 alcoholic program, and she now works in Hazleton. 2 0 MR. JACKSON: 21 Q Have you yourself been involved with any educational 22 projects within the Gitksan territories? 23 A Well, has to do with establishing a kindergarten 24 program for the Gitwingax band. The title is the 25 Nursery Kindergarden Program on the reserve. I helped 26 them to prepare the content for the kindergarden 27 program, and assisted in establishing the content of 28 the program for the nursery part of the program. 29 Q Chief Hanamuxw, what language do you speak? 30 A Gitksan. My second language is English. 31 Q In the setting up of the kindergarten program you just 32 described would it be appropriate in instructing 33 Gitksan children in their own language to employ a 34 person who was a Tsimxsan speaker who had never worked 35 or lived within the Gitksan communities? 36 A No. 37 Q Could you explain why that would not be appropriate? 38 A The Gitksan language is a very distinct language of 39 its own, and if a person from a neighbouring territory 40 comes in it would be difficult for them to do any 41 instruction in our Gitksan language for many reasons. 42 One is that when you learn a second language I think 43 the most important thing missing would be the motive 44 aspect of the words in the language, that you don't 45 appreciate the emotional connotations of the words 46 when you acquire a second language. You can do that 47 over a period of time, and it does take time to 5005 J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Jackson 1 acquire that. Certainly it would be very difficult 2 for that person to explain some of our adaawk or 3 legends to the children, and to give the correct 4 pronunciation of the words. For a Tsimxsan some of 5 their pronounciation of their words are different from 6 ours. The phrasing could be different as well. The 7 meaning of some of the words would be different. So 8 if that person is going to instruct children in 9 Gitksan they are going to have to do some -- or spend 10 some time studying the language before they can handle 11 the program adequately. 12 Q Would it be possible for a Tsimxsan person who did 13 live within the territories -- within the communities 14 of the Gitksan to acquire sufficient knowledge so that 15 they could, in fact, instruct Indian children in the 16 Gitksan language? 17 A Certainly it's possible. 18 Q Do you have any to your own knowledge examples of 19 where that has happened? 20 A Yes. In Gitwingax. 21 Q In the school you just described? 22 A Yes. In the nursery school, kindergarten school in 23 Gitwingax. Virginia Moore is originally from 24 Kitkatla, and she is Tsimxsan, which is the way we 25 call it. 26 Q And what is her relation to you? 27 A She is married to 'Niitsxw, a wing chief in my house. 28 And she has been in Gitwingax for a period of years, 29 and she has acquired the knowledge of the Gitksan 30 language. 31 Q Chief Hanamuxw, in the work you have done over the 32 years that you have described for the court with the 33 NITEP program, in the work you have done in as you 34 described it negotiating with the Province, have you 35 given up or abandoned your authority as a Gitksan 36 chief? 37 A No. Even though I am away from the territory 38 certainly I maintain links with first of all Gitwingax 39 which is my dad's reserve, and I certainly maintain my 40 links with Gitsegukla, which is my mother's reserve. 41 And whenever there are activities in those two 42 villages if I can attend them I certainly try and 43 attend them whenever the dates are set. And if I know 44 them sufficiently beforehand then I make every effort 45 to attend the activities that they have in those 46 villages, and as much as possible contribute where I 47 can ideas that might be helpful to them, support them 5006 J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Jackson 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. MR. THE MR. THE THE THE THE THE THE THE MR. THE THE in whatever way I can. JACKSON: I would like you, Madam Registrar, if you could place the Exhibit 34 again before Chief Hanamuxw, and perhaps the witness could place it in front of her. Q Chief Hanamuxw, referring you back to that picture of November the 1st, 1966, when you took the name Hanamuxw what did you understand was passed to you under Gitksan law? A I'm sorry. I'm waiting for my dictionary to be read. There was a sentence given to me first by Ida Moore, Suu wii gantxw, and then it was given to me by the Wil'na t'ahl, and I'll repeat the Indian sentence to you now. JACKSON: Fern, ready? SPELLER: Yes. JACKSON: Q What is that sentence, Chief Hanamuxw? A Hlaa niin xsi gyalatxwit dim ant guuhl hii dax gyets dip niye'en. Dim guudinhl wa midim'y ama gya'adihl Lax yip. Q Do you have a translation of those words that were given to you? A Roughly the translation would be that you are the one that has been selected to take the land that was your inheritance, to hold it, and to take care of it. If you were to look at the implication of that -- COURT: Just a moment, please. Madam reporter, have you -- SPELLER: It's number 804 on the word list. COURT: The whole expression? SPELLER: Yes. COURT: All right. Thank you. Is that sufficient, madam reporter? REPORTER: Yes. Thank you. COURT: All right. Thank you. JACKSON: Q You were just explaining about the implications of that. A I have to collect my thoughts again. Just a minute. COURT: You were going to tell me the implications of what you have just said. A That's right, so I have to collect the words again. COURT: Yes. Thank you. A That means the land that your forefathers had, that includes the regalia, that includes the adaawk, that includes the pole, that includes the resources on the land, that includes the name Hanamuxw, and the right to use that name within the Gitksan territory. That 5007 J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Jackson 1 means the right to use the authority of the chief. 2 That includes providing leadership for the people, the 3 Gisk'aast as well as the other clans in Gitsegukla. 4 It means preserving the history of the house. It 5 means taking care of the present, and always with the 6 idea that you link it with the future. It means 7 having the right to assist not just the people in your 8 own house, but everyone in your community if they need 9 help. It means going to other levels of authority 10 whenever you need to negotiate with them to take care 11 of the needs of the people, or it may mean going to 12 neighbouring nations and negotiating with them issues 13 that deal with the Indian problems, or it may mean 14 offering suggestions as to how these can be solved, 15 how the problems can be solved. It also means that 16 you as the chief have the responsibility of training 17 the younger members of your -- of your family so that 18 all the traditions, all the customs, all the rituals 19 within your house are maintained. So in a sense the 20 chief is also the teacher for the younger people as 21 well as a counsellor, as well as a spiritual leader. 22 MR. JACKSON: 23 Q In giving the translation of the Gitksan words that 24 were passed to you my note is that you -- part of it 25 was to take care of the inheritance of the house. 26 Could you explain what you mean by taking care of the 27 territory, taking care of the resources? 28 A I guess one way to get at that particular question is 2 9 to say that we have a management plan as to how we 30 take care of our resources, and one definite example 31 that I can give here is that when you look at your 32 inventory you know approximately how many dried fish 33 you need within a year, how many cans you use within a 34 year, how many are frozen, how many are half smoked, 35 and based on that inventory when you start to process 36 again in the spring, and during the summer you go to 37 the river and you only take from the river what you 38 need. Included in that list has to do with trading as 39 well. I missed one item as well so I better go back 40 and add that one. You're encouraged to protect the 41 species of the fish, that you don't take more than 42 what you require so that the cycle continues and that 43 you will continue to obtain the fish from the river in 44 the future. We are told that we must never at any 45 time destroy the stock. 46 Q Again, when you were translating the phrase you said 47 to hold the property. What do you understand that 500E J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Jackson 1 means? Explain to the court. Elaborate on that. 2 A I was directly translating our words into English 3 which at best of times is difficult to do. To me it 4 means that the property is not given to you directly. 5 In other words, it's not your personal property, but 6 rather you are designated as the person to manage that 7 property not just for yourself but for all of the 8 members of your house. All of our members -- all the 9 members of the house have the right to use the 10 territory whenever they need resources from the 11 territory. And if they need to go to the territory 12 they probably would pay a courtesy call to Hanamuxw to 13 ask for permission to go to the territory. And 14 usually that's just a routine matter. The answer to 15 that question is always yes, because the chiefs are 16 told that they have to be generous. And I mentioned 17 this yesterday in the list of characteristics that 18 they expect to have in a chief, that whoever is in 19 need of fish they are welcome to come to your fishing 20 site and take whatever fish they need, because there 21 are people within our Gitksan territory who do not own 22 fishing sites. They do not have houses, but the 23 chiefs have to give them access to their -- to their 24 fishing sites so that they can survive like everybody 25 else. 26 Q In terms of what was passed to you, what rights were 27 passed to you in relation to the use of the 28 territories in terms of people who are not members of 29 your house? 30 A I'm not -- I'm not too clear on your question. I see 31 myself answering it in two ways. 32 Q Let me clarify it so you're entirely clear on the 33 question. You mentioned in your last answer that you 34 hold the property on behalf of the other members of 35 the house, and they have rights to use the territory. 36 What is the position in relation to other members of 37 other houses who wish to use Hanamuxw's fishing site 38 or Hanamuxw's territory? 39 A Okay. Number one, no one can come on to your 40 territory without permission from you. And as far as 41 some of the other chiefs are concerned they exercise 42 the same right to give permission to people who want 43 to use their sites. For people who are not members of 44 your house it's not a standing permit for them to go 45 to your site. Each time that they want, or each year 46 that they want to go to your site, or at least the 47 Gitksan regulation requires them that they should come 5009 J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Jackson 1 to the chief and ask for permission again, so it's an 2 annual renewal of that type of permission. 3 Q In receiving the name did any rights or 4 responsibilities pass to you in relation to 5 participation in the feast hall? 6 A It gives me the right to be invited to memorial feasts 7 of other clans. It gives me the right to attend pole 8 raising feasts of other clans. It gives me the right 9 to pass judgment on whether Gitksan laws are fulfilled 10 when a name is transferred to a new candidate or a new 11 chief. It also gives me veto power if I feel that 12 certain regulations and laws are not being fulfilled. 13 It gives me the right to participate in all 14 ventures -- all ventures that the chiefs would like to 15 undertake. I'll give this land claims court as an 16 example of where I have the privilege of exercising my 17 right to make the decision to be part of this court 18 case. 19 MR. JACKSON: Would that be a convenient time to take the break? 2 0 THE COURT: Yes. Thank you. 21 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court will recess. 22 2 3 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED) 24 25 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 26 a true and accurate transcript of the 27 proceedings herein to the best of my 28 skill and ability. 29 30 31 32 Peri McHale, Official Reporter 33 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 5010 J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs) In Chief By Mr. Jackson JOAN RYAN, Resumed: EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. JACKSON: (Continued) MR. JACKSON: Q Before the break, Chief Hanamuxw, you had mentioned that -- you gave evidence that one of the rights and 8 responsibilities which passed to you was those in 9 relation to participating in the feast hall, and you 10 had given evidence, as I understand, that a part of 11 that role was to validate, to confirm if things were 12 done appropriately. Can you give an example of that 13 process? 14 A Before you get to the feast hall, it is really 15 important that consultations take place within your 16 own house, certainly within your wilksiwitxw, 17 certainly within your wilksiwitxw and, if necessary, 18 consult with the other chiefs as well. The extent to 19 which you consult the other chiefs, the other houses, 20 depends on the nature of the issue. It can be 21 extensive or it can be limited but consultation does 22 take place. It is a requirement before you get to the 23 feast hall. And so when we sit as either -- I am 24 sorry, as witnesses in the feast hall, what we are 25 actually doing is giving our stamp of approval of the 26 way the business is conducted. There will be times 27 when errors are made in describing some of the 28 territories and if that is the case, then it's the 29 position of the chiefs who are present to indicate 30 that an error has taken place. And usually it's not 31 handled at the feast where it occurs, it's usually 32 dealt with in a subsequent feast. It is usually the 33 responsibility of the wilksiwitxw to correct that 34 error. He has to point out that mistakes were made, 35 maybe, in describing a corner of the territory or the 36 fishing sites or maybe the traplines or maybe a wrong 37 crest was used. I can just go that far in giving you 38 examples of what may happen. 39 Q In your experience, and to your knowledge, has that 40 occurred where you have in fact witnessed that process 41 where a chief has raised the issue of whether a 42 territory or a fishing site has been improperly 43 described or claimed? 44 A I was not present at the feast when the error was made 45 but I was present at the feast where the correction 46 was made. And it was done by the wilksiwitxw of 47 Haalus and that's Gwisgyen. 5011 J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs) In Chief By Mr. Jackson 1 Q Just to clarify my understanding of that, the feast at 2 which the error was made was a feast put on by Haalus? 3 A It would have to be. 4 Q And the correction which was made, was it a subsequent 5 feast? 6 A It was a subsequent feast of Haalus. 7 Q And the person who made the correction was Gwisgyen? 8 A Yes, Gwisgyen the father of Haalus. 9 Q In terms of what you describe as the authority that 10 had passed to you as chief Hanamuxw when you took on 11 the name, can you describe to the court how you 12 exercise that authority, the process whereby you would 13 exercise that authority? 14 A Certainly it is more difficult for me to exercise my 15 authority because I live outside of the territory. 16 But I do have ways of delegating my authority to 17 members of my house and I do that by asking my mother 18 Gwaans to represent me at feasts that are given by 19 other clans. That's one form of delegation. Or I can 20 delegate -- I have to take part in an activity for me 21 or I can delegate part of my authority to as Maas 22 Gaak. 2 3 THE COURT: I didn't get that name. 24 A Maas Gaak. 25 THE TRANSLATOR: It's number 27 on the word list. 2 6 MR. JACKSON: 27 Q What was the name after your mother, you delegated to 28 somebody else? 2 9 A K'amx tsi kaax, that's James Ryan. 30 Q What is his position in your house? 31 A He is a wing chief in my house. So is Gwaans, so is 32 Maas Gaak. Again also delegate part of my authority 33 to Gwa'aa maats, a wing chief in my office. 34 Q That's Dora Johnson? 35 A Yes, Dora Johnson. 'Niitsxw, Larry Moore. 36 MR. JACKSON: Those names are all on our word list, my lord. 37 Would it assist you to have those numbers at this 38 point. 39 THE COURT: Yes, I will have to have them, a name or a number. 40 THE TRANSLATOR: 'Niitsxw was 29, Gwa'aa maats is 12, Maas gaak 41 is 27, K'amx tsi kaax is number 19 and Gwaans is -- 42 THE COURT: I have Gwaans. Thank you. 4 3 MR. JACKSON: 44 Q Would you, in making a decision, would you normally 45 make that decision yourself, decision affecting your 46 house? 47 THE COURT: Do you mean a decision to delegate or a decision? 5012 J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs) In Chief By Mr. Jackson 1 MR. JACKSON: No, I wasn't talking about a decision to delegate, 2 but in general -- 3 Q When you have to make a decision as Hanamuxw, did you 4 make that decision on your own? 5 A When you are a chief it's necessary for you to do 6 both. There would be occasions when you have to make 7 the decision alone. But basically speaking, we make 8 our decisions collectively, because that's part of the 9 tradition of the Gitksan law, that consultation has to 10 take place within your own house, it has to take place 11 within your wil'na t'ahl, it has to take place with 12 the other clans as well wil'na t'ahl. That's at the 13 village level. But you can also go to the other 14 villages too and go through the same process as well. 15 So the network can sometimes be very large or just 16 confined to your own village. 17 Q What would determine whether the consultation was 18 confined to, say, your house as opposed to a 19 consultation which involved all the other chiefs or 20 all the other villages? 21 A Well, certainly outside of the larger -- I will start 22 with the larger network. The consultation would be 23 based on an issue that would affect all of the 24 villages and then you would have to consult all of the 25 villages. 26 Q What would be an example of that sort of -- 27 A Certainly our land claims is one example, a very good 28 example of how the network of consultation would take 29 place before we can jointly or collectively decide 30 that we are going to take this action. 31 At the village level, certainly you can do your 32 consultation that would involve all the clans or just 33 your own wil'na t'ahl or it could be related only to 34 your own house. And I guess the most important one 35 that you would have to deal with has to do with the 36 selection of a chief, that would be one example, where 37 consultation would start at your house level and 38 certainly it would go to your wil'na t'ahl, certainly 39 would go to your wilksiwitxw. I am not sure whether 40 that answers that question. 41 Q In terms of you dealt with decisions which affect, as 42 it were, all the Gitksan houses, decisions which might 43 affect the clans or the village, what would be the 44 kind of decision which would be centred, as it were, 45 at the house level? 46 A Certainly the members who would receive names, like we 47 have names that are strictly for boys and certainly 5013 J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs) In Chief By Mr. Jackson 1 strictly for girls, and you have to make a house 2 decision when is the right time for the children of 3 the house are ready to receive those names. So that 4 would be one example where we would have a house 5 meeting. Certainly we would have to have a house 6 meeting when we want to put on a feast, when the date 7 has to be set, so that the members of your house 8 prepare all the things that they would need to put on 9 that feast. 10 Q On that particular issue, I would like you just to 11 direct your mind to this question: As you have given 12 evidence, you live in Prince Rupert, and I am 13 wondering if you would explain to the court how you, 14 as a chief who is resident in Prince Rupert most of 15 the time, how do you fulfill your responsibilities as 16 a Gitksan chief within the feast system? 17 A Part of it is solved by making many phone calls and 18 having a huge telephone bill. Certainly part of it is 19 solved by delegating a lot of my plans to be handled 20 by Gwaans, Maas Gaak, K'amxtsi kaax, if necessary, and 21 they would make the formal arrangements for me and it 22 may require on my part to make trips back to 23 Gitsegukla before the feast but basically the 24 preparation would be handled by K'amxtsi kaax and Maas 25 Gaak. Certainly I have received a lot of support from 2 6 Gwis gyen. 27 Q That's Stanley Williams? 28 A That's Stanley Williams, yes. He would help out if 29 necessary when it's time to invite people to the 30 feast, he would assist Maas Gaak in issuing the 31 invitations to the chiefs. 32 Q Is the process of delegation which you described, that 33 is something which is consistent with your 34 understanding of Gitksan law on the way in which a 35 chief can discharge their responsibilities? 36 A Yes. That's a normal part of our process in dealing 37 with the types of issues or certainly different types 38 of requirements that we have within our laws, 39 certainly what is happening when I delegate to Maas 40 Gaak is that I am training him as to how the Gitksan 41 person is to organize, a Gitksan person within a house 42 is to organize a feast. So, in a sense, by asking him 43 to do certain jobs for me before putting on a feast, 44 in essence, I am saying this is how we do it, and I am 45 expecting you to fulfill this responsibility. So in 46 essence it's a training programme for him and it goes 47 as well for all the other members of my house and 5014 J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs) In Chief By Mr. Jackson 1 certainly within the feast hall too, there are certain 2 rules and regulations that you have to know and it's 3 at the feast hall where the members of the house get 4 practical experience that they need in order for them 5 to learn what those rules and regulations are. So, in 6 a sense you are setting up practical experience for 7 them to be able to use the rules and regulations of 8 the Gitksan people, especially in the House of 9 Hanamuxw. 10 Q When you delegate or rely upon other members of your 11 house, do you have to tell them specifically what it 12 is they have to do? 13 A Yes. We certainly believe in a division of labour, we 14 certainly recognize very strongly that each individual 15 arrives in this world with different kinds of skills 16 and we try and capitalize on it. And so you, as a 17 chief, when you look at the members of your house you 18 take that into consideration when you assign duties to 19 them. And, yes, you do give specific orders saying 20 that if you are going to need 500 loaves of bread, 21 that's the order you give to one member of your house 22 to order for you. Or if you are going to need 300 23 towels, then that's what you say to them, they have to 24 go out and find ways of finding 300 towels for you and 25 you have to make sure too that you are going to give 26 them enough time to be able to acquire that. 27 Q Can you give the court an example of how you as 2 8 Hanamuxw have worked with members of your house and 29 with your wil'na t'ahl in organizing a feast which, as 30 it were, describes how you have delegated and how you 31 have worked with those members while maintaining your 32 position as a teacher in Prince Rupert? 33 A This process takes place not only when I am putting on 34 a feast but also when I am going to take a part in 35 other feasts in a house of Giskaast, the same kind of 36 delegation takes place. Because even when you are 37 taking part in the feast of another house you are 38 still required to prepare food, to bring gifts that 39 would be distributed at the feast so you still have to 40 place an order for someone close to or at least in 41 your territory to be able to get these ready. One 42 example I can give about my own house is when we put 43 up the stone for uncle Jeffery. 44 Q This is the former Hanamuxw? 45 A The former Hanamuxw, where I had to depend on a lot of 46 the members of my family to organize the feast for me, 47 I also have to depend on my in-laws to help me out. 5015 J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs) In Chief By Mr. Jackson 1 They are assigned a role to do some of the cooking for 2 me, to help wrap up some of the gifts that are to be 3 distributed. Some of them had to go to the bank and 4 make sure that I have the right denominations of the 5 bills that are going to be used within the feast when 6 the monetary gifts are given out to the chiefs. 7 Certainly, I had to depend on some of my wilksiwitxw 8 to help me out as well. 9 Q Did they have a particular role, the wilksiwitxw, in 10 terms of that feast? 11 A Usually they give me monetary support as well. But 12 when you don't ask they give it to you automatically. 13 But some of my wilksiwitxw had to sing the songs from 14 my father's house, to indicate or to demonstrate to 15 the public that they approve of my feast and of my 16 concern that the headstone for Hanamuxw was put in 17 place over the grave. 18 Q At that feast, were speeches made by chiefs in your 19 house, in your wil'na t'ahl? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Who made those speeches? 22 A Which is the normal procedure at the feast. 23 Certainly, for my own house, Gwaans made a speech to 24 the people for coming and honouring the invitation to 25 this particular feast. I thanked all my workers, I 26 also made a speech, I thanked all my workers for the 27 work they had done, carrying out all the 28 responsibilities of preparing the food and the gifts 29 for the guests, for ensuring that the hall was ready, 30 and that the chairs and tables were placed where they 31 should be, because we do have particular tables for 32 particular clans within the feast hall. And those had 33 to be in place. And when it came time to describe the 34 territory, and the power of Hanamuxw, it was left to 35 Gwis gyen to explain that to the gathering. 36 Q And was that in accordance with Gitksan law that Gwis 37 gyen would be the one to describe the territories for 38 Hanamuxw in the headstone feast? 39 A Yes. It's part of one of the characteristics I 40 explained yesterday that you have to honour your 41 elders, certainly in my house, my mother Gwaans and 42 Gwis gyen are the ones that I consider to be my 43 historians and keepers of the Gitksan laws within the 44 house of Hanamuxw. And this is a normal procedure, 45 there is nothing unusual about that. 46 Q Where you are required, under Gitksan law, to define 47 or describe the territories of Hanamuxw, who would you 5016 J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs) In Chief By Mr. Jackson 1 rely upon to do that in a feast situation? 2 A Certainly Gwis gyen and if Gwis gyen is not there, 3 certainly my mother Gwaans would do that. Their 4 knowledge of the territory is extensive and certainly 5 they are respected as authorities on this issue by the 6 other chiefs. 7 Q Outside of the context of a feast, if you are required 8 to define, describe the territories, fishing sites of 9 Hanamuxw, would you delegate that authority? 10 A Because I am outside of the territory, really, I have 11 no choice but to delegate that authority to my mother, 12 Gwaans. 13 Q Would you delegate that to anyone else? 14 A If Gwaans was not there, certainly a member of my own 15 house, I would delegate that to, or if I don't have 16 anyone available from my house certainly Gwis gyen 17 would do it for me. 18 Q Just in terms of clarifying the -- where was the 19 headstone feast of Jeffery Johnson held? 20 A It was in Gitsegukla. 21 Q When was that? 22 A That was November of '85. 23 Q In addition to those feasts where you would delegate 24 responsibilities for attendance to Gwaans or other 25 members of your house, have you participated in feasts 26 yourself, other than the headstone feast you have 27 described, within the Gitksan territories? 2 8 A Yes, I have. 29 Q I am showing you a list here -- and, my lord, there is 30 a copy -- I have got a mark with a squiggle here, 31 that's all -- and I am producing for you a list, is 32 that a list which you have compiled and does that list 33 show the feasts which you have yourself personally 34 attended as Hanamuxw since November, 1985? 35 A Yes. Yes. This is a list that I have compiled saying 36 that these were the feasts that I actually attended in 37 person, where I have not delegated my authorities to 38 Gwaans to attend a feast on my behalf. 39 MR. JACKSON: I would like to enter that as the next exhibit, my 40 lord. 41 THE COURT: Yes. The exhibit number? 42 THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 375 my lord. 43 44 (EXHIBIT 375: LIST OF FEASTS ATTENDED BY HANAMUXW) 45 4 6 MR. JACKSON: 47 Q At the headstone feast of Jeffery Johnson, was any 5017 J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs) In Chief By Mr. Jackson 1 announcement made regarding totem poles? 2 A Yes, there was an announcement made about totem poles. 3 Q Could you indicate what that was? 4 A That in the future the House of Hanamuxw was going 5 to -- okay, I am going to have to say that there are 6 two poles. The first pole -- the first pole was going 7 to be repaired, so that crests remain as they were 8 because the quality of the wood is deteriorating. 9 Q That first pole, what pole is that one? 10 A That's the one that was in front of our house and was 11 taken down. 12 Q Whose pole was that? 13 A That was Hanamuxw's pole. That one has been in the 14 village of Gitsegukla for quite a number of years. 15 That pole was repaired in 1945 by Jeffery Johnson and 16 was placed in front of his House in Gitsegukla, then 17 the second pole is a new pole, new in the sense that 18 it is going to be new wood but it's going to contain 19 the same crests as the original pole, because I am the 20 one that is going to be putting up or at least putting 21 up that pole. My father's crest had to be down, 22 placed at the bottom, to indicate to the people in the 23 future that it was this Hanamuxw that had prepared 24 that pole. Wil'na t'ahl's crest must be at the 25 bottom. 26 Q What is the significance of the raising of a pole of 27 the former Hanamuxw, Jeffery Johnson, and the raising 28 of your pole, the present Hanamuxw? 29 A First and foremost, it means that what I am doing now 30 is preserving the past for the nieces and nephews that 31 we have now and the future members of my family. Also 32 following the tradition that is required for the chief 33 that you put up your own pole, which indicates that 34 there is continuity in the history of the house, and 35 that putting of the pole indicates that you intend to 36 maintain that link with the past, it means that you 37 are careful about preserving the history of the house. 38 One way of ensuring that the history is there. It 39 also indicates too that you do have a house. I mean, 40 without the pole it certainly would be difficult to 41 identify the House of Hanamuxw because your pole 42 records experiences of your house. It's like a 43 history book of your house. It's evidence that 44 Hanamuxw's house did exist, does exist and will 45 continue to exist. So maintaining your poles is 46 really important. It's a very important evidence in 47 the Gitksan Nation, that you are what you are. 501E J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs) In Chief By Mr. Jackson 1 Q As someone, a school teacher, who has been educated 2 both as a Gitksan chief and someone who is an educator 3 of children both Indian and non-Indian, can you make 4 any comparison for the court between the history that 5 you have talked about which is represented in the 6 totem poles and the history in the text books with 7 which -- which are part of the curriculum of the 8 non-Indian society? 9 A I need clarification on this question. You mean, you 10 are saying the content? 11 Q The quality of the history. 12 A Quality of the history? In terms of whether it's 13 positive or negative? 14 Q No, no. I will ask the question again. 15 You have said that the totem pole represents your 16 history, is there anything different for you in how 17 that history is presented than if it were written down 18 in the history book, a written source of history as 19 opposed to the history which is in the pole? 20 A It's our only way of recording our history, it's 21 pictorial rather than verbal and, in some ways, it's 22 very difficult to erase because it has been carved in 23 wood, it takes a long period of time to change it, 24 it's our form of keeping a permanent record of our 25 history. Certainly, it doesn't have as many pages as 26 a book has. The crests have their own meaning, just 27 like any other book, there is certain types of 28 information that you gain from a written record. The 29 same is true of the pictorial representations that you 30 have in your pole, they have meanings and people who 31 know the poles will be able to tell you what those 32 crests mean on a pole. So, I am saying that there is 33 a parallel, but maybe not to the same extent as a 34 history book, and that you would gain just as much 35 information from it as you would a text book, even 36 though the length of your pole may not be as long as 37 the pages in a book. 38 Q I won't ask you whether it's a more economical way of 39 recording history then. 40 Let me change the topic. You gave evidence before, 41 both in terms of your training as a chief and in terms 42 of giving your responsibilities, that there was -- 43 spiritual strength was a quality. Can you explain the 44 relationship between spiritual strengths and the 45 duties of a Gitksan chief? 46 A In listing qualifications for a chief I mentioned that 47 one of the first things that they look for in a person 5019 J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs) In Chief By Mr. Jackson 1 that is being prepared for chief is the idea that you 2 could accept the concept of a creator, the concept of 3 the creator is your guide, your protector, your source 4 of wisdom and to our people it is really important 5 that you incorporate those ideas into your life, that 6 you acknowledge the creator on a daily basis and that 7 you seek his guidance in the activities that you, you 8 have to undertake. And to ask him to protect you on a 9 daily basis and to go with you wherever you go. And 10 to make sure that the decisions that you make, your 11 conduct, is in accordance with what we consider to be 12 acceptable to our creator. 13 Q Is there any special training or any special way in 14 which you prepare yourself to gain that spiritual 15 strength? 16 A Certainly by listening to our elders is one way of 17 gaining understanding of what we mean by our spiritual 18 values. One of the ways in which you incorporate into 19 your life is to exercise every day, one of the ways in 20 which you try and enhance the presence or increase the 21 presence of the creator in your life is to prepare 22 your body, your mind and your spirit, and you do that 23 or one form of doing that is by fasting, and this is 24 where guidance from your creator is very important, 25 the length of time that you do your fasting depends on 26 the instructions that you get from your creator, so it 27 may be for a short period of time, it might be a 28 fairly lengthy time, but at all times you are 29 protected by him. 30 Q Do you yourself engage in that, in fasting? 31 A At times, yes. 32 Q You gave evidence yesterday afternoon that as a young 33 child you spent time, you went out into the 34 territories of your father and that you were involved 35 in fishing with your grandfather on the Skeena, did 36 you, as a young child, spend time on the territories 37 of Hanamuxw? 38 A Certainly on one of them, yes. 39 Q Which territory is that? 40 A That would be the one near Carnaby. 41 Q The territory near Carnaby. 42 A That's Gwaans' territories. 43 Q That's the territory of Gwaans described in her 44 evidence? 45 A Yes. 46 Q As a young child did you go out onto any other 47 territory of Hanamuxw? 5020 J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs) In Chief By Mr. Jackson 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q No. You gave evidence that, I believe it was a, at the age of 13 you went to -- away from home to school? A Yes. Q And your evidence is that since that time you in fact have been involved in your educational endeavours and in your work as a teacher, and the work based in Prince Rupert, have you since that time gone out on to the other territory of Hanamuxw, the territory not at Carnaby? A No, no. Q Is there anyone in your house who is responsible for the Carnaby territory in terms of Gitksan law? A I am going to have to include the two territories in this question. Q I am sorry, I should have expanded that to the two territories. A Yes, when the decision was made that I was going to be the one to take the name Hanamuxw, part of the provision that was made on November 1st, 1966, was that my brother James, K'amxtsi kaax, was going to be given or, I am sorry, was given the responsibility of taking care of the territories for me. And there were reasons for that. THE COURT: I am sorry, did you say who was given that responsibility? A K'amxtsi kaax, my brother James. THE COURT: For both territories? A For both territories, yes. MR. JACKSON: What number is that? THE TRANSLATOR: Number 19. MR. JACKSON: Q And you have already said your brother James is a wing of your chief? A Yes, he is one of the chiefs of my house. There were very practical reasons for doing that. One was I am a female chief, and this is one of the ways in which the wil'na t'ahl wanted to protect me, for if I was to go out on the territory myself I may meet up with danger. The second to me is the most important one, and that is James has been given the responsibility of training my nephews to know the boundaries of the territory, not just my nephews but also the other members of my house, the male members of my house. And he has done that, he has been training the other members of the house to know the boundaries of the territories of Hanamuxw. 5021 J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs) In Chief By Mr. Jackson 1 Q Does your brother, as the caretaker of the 2 territories, report to you regarding the territories? 3 A Yes, he brings the reports to me, he will tell me the 4 number of times he has been out there, either with 5 myself or with my nephews and if he wants to take his 6 friends along too, that's fine, he will take them 7 along too. Sometimes he will bring me food that comes 8 from the territories. 9 Q Are there other -- you mentioned your nephews, are 10 there -- who would these be who would go out on to the 11 territories, as it were? 12 A Andrew Clifton and Jamie Clifton. 13 Q What is their -- 14 A They are the sons of my sister Barbara. 15 Q Just to clarify this, James, in relation to your 16 family lineage, he is your brother, what's his 17 position in the family? 18 A James is, according to Gitksan law, James would be my 19 successor as a chief, so in taking care of the 20 territory he is a chief in training. 21 Q You mentioned that your brother gives you information, 22 gives you food from the territory, could you tell the 23 court whether or not you maintain any involvement with 24 the territories in terms of fishing activities? 25 A Line fishing, yes, not necessarily net fishing. 2 6 Q Could you explain what your involvement is with 27 fishing within Gitksan territory? 28 A I thought your question started out by saying it was 29 in my territory. 30 Q Well — 31 A I mean, I just want to clarify that. I may have 32 missed a word in what you were saying. 33 Q Let me ask you, what is your involvement with fishing 34 within the territories of Hanamuxw or the territories 35 of your father's side? 36 A Okay. There were two parts to the question. 37 Q I didn't make myself clear. 38 A Not the first time around. I thought I heard the 39 second part of it, yes. 40 Certainly, within my own territory, we don't always 41 fish with a net but we will go and do what I call line 42 fishing, fish with a line and then take some trout out 43 of the river. If we go to my father's territory, then 44 certainly we get our salmon from Lax'wii t'in, I 45 mentioned that yesterday. 46 Q That's one of the fishing sites -- 47 A That's one of the fishing sites of my father, known 5022 J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs) In Chief By Mr. Jackson 1 for spring salmon. And we get a lot of spring from 2 that fishing hole, to the place of Haalus, when he was 3 alive, that he would bring the salmon to my mother's 4 house, where the process would take place. We would 5 can the salmon that would come from that fishing hole, 6 or we would freeze it, depending on the purpose we 7 need that fish for. 8 Q Do you and have you over the years, since taking the 9 name, gone back to Gitsegukla or Kitwanga to 10 participate in the processing of fish yourself? 11 A Nearly every summer I do spend a few weeks in 12 Gitsegukla, helping mother to process food that has 13 been given to us by wil'na t'ahl and wilksiwitxw. 14 Q And that process would involve what? 15 A Canning the fish, cleaning it and making sure that we 16 use up all of the fish that is given to us. That's 17 one of the other things we are trained to do is that 18 we don't waste any part of the fish if we can possibly 19 utilize it in our menus, we certainly do. 20 Q Would that fish processing, would that take place 21 principally at your mother's house in Gitsegukla? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Would you spend any time when you go back into the 24 territories on your father's territory in Kitwanga? 25 A Yes. Sometimes I would go out and look for soap 26 berries or I will look for huckleberries, depends on 27 the part of the summer that I am up there. Berries 28 don't ripen all at once so depends what I can get at a 29 particular time. 30 Q You will participate in that berry picking activity? 31 A Yes, any excuse to get out in the outdoors. 32 Q In terms of, again, the resources of the territory, in 33 addition to fish which you yourself are involved in, 34 in processing, I would like to ask you whether you 35 receive any food, any fish, berries from the 36 territories, from other people? And perhaps we could 37 start with fish, do you receive any fish from other 38 people? 39 A Yes, certainly, some of my wil'na t'ahl will give me 40 some from Gitsegukla, will give me some fish, yes. 41 Q Can you give some examples of that? 42 A Sometimes from the house of Guxsan, I will get some 43 fish. Certainly from Kitwancool, from my wilksiwitxw, 44 and they would bring salted fish or -- 45 Q That's Lelt? 46 A No, Xamlaxyeltxw. 47 THE TRANSLATOR: That's number 85 on the list. 5023 J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs) In Chief By Mr. Jackson 1 MR. JACKSON: 85 on the plaintiffs' list. 2 THE COURT: Thank you. 3 A Or he may buy food from another territory and bring it 4 to us, if he is -- if it's in the Nass River area and 5 it's this time of year, he will bring oolichans or if 6 he is down at the coast, if it's the time of year when 7 you get herring eggs, he will bring herring eggs. So, 8 my supply for food comes from many sources, my supply 9 of food from the land comes from many sources. 10 Q And it comes from your father's side and your mother's 11 side also? 12 A Yes, my mother's side also. 13 Q Do you receive any fish from members of the family of 14 the former Hanamuxw? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And who would that be? 17 A That is Gwoimt, which is Elmer Johnson. 18 Q Arnold Johnson and Elmer Johnson? 19 A Yes. 20 Q They are in what house? 21 A Just checking the pronounciation. Gwoimt. 22 THE TRANSLATOR: Number 21 on the plaintiff's list. 2 3 MR. JACKSON: 21. 24 Q And is it appropriate -- of course they are not in 25 your house, is it appropriate that they would give you 26 fish? 27 A Yes. Because their father was Hanamuxw and so even 28 though I am, we don't have a term for it, it's still 2 9 the same as and Gmnigwootxu and that would be the 30 purpose of giving me the fish. 31 Q Do you receive, in addition to fish you have received 32 from your father's side and your mother's side and as 33 you described from the family of the former Hanamuxw, 34 do you receive any berries from them, from anyone? 35 A Yes. Most of the berries that I would receive would 36 come from Sinankxws, that is Fanny Williams, she is a 37 wing chief in Haalus. 38 MR. JACKSON: That number, Miss Stevens? 39 THE TRANSLATOR: 693. 4 0 Q And what would she give you? 41 A Sometimes she will give me huckleberries or it could 42 be soap berries, sometimes it would be wild 43 raspberries, which she will have collected from the 44 territory. Sometimes it will be wild crabapples from 45 her own backyard, and she says if you don't believe 46 me, she left an open invitation the other day saying 47 you are wellcome to come to her back door to pick your 5024 J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs) In Chief By Mr. Jackson 1 own crabapples to make your own jelly. Sometimes her 2 version of an Indian fruit cocktail, she will leave 3 jars with either mother or with me. It's part of the 4 sharing that our families are encouraged to do. It's 5 part of her way of looking after me. That's part of 6 the job of wilksiwitxw to make sure that you are well 7 provided for. 8 MR. JACKSON: Would it be appropriate to take the break? 9 THE COURT: Yes. All right. Thank you. 2 o'clock, please. 10 11 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCH) 12 13 14 15 16 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 17 a true and accurate transcript of the 18 proceedings herein to the best of my 19 skill and ability. 20 21 22 23 24 25 Wilf Roy 26 Official Reporter 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON RECESS) 5025 J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Jackson 1 2 THE REGISTRAR: Calling Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen, 3 at bar, my lord. 4 THE COURT: Mr. Jackson. 5 MR. JACKSON: Thank you, my lord. 6 Q Chief Hanamuxw, just before we broke for lunch you had 7 mentioned that of the people who supplied you with 8 fish some of these are members of your wil'na t'ahl. 9 Could you indicate for the court who they would be? 10 A Sammy Williams, Gwis gyen, would bring fish to 11 mother's house. Xsgo gimlaxha's house would bring 12 fish to us in the person of Vernon Williams from 13 Gitsegukla. 14 MR. JACKSON: Xsgo gimlaxha is number 87 on the list, my lord. 15 THE COURT: Thank you. 16 MR. JACKSON: 17 Q Also before the luncheon, perhaps appropriately, you 18 made a reference to Gitksan fruit cocktail. Could you 19 explain exactly what that is? 20 A Well, usually it's preserving two different -- two or 21 three different kinds of berries at the same time, or 22 in the same jar. So it's equivalent to the kind of 23 fruit cocktail that you would buy in the store except 24 that the content would be from the land of Sinankxws. 25 Q Thank you. Do any other members of your house who 26 live outside of the territories receive food from 27 either members of the House of Hanamuxw or members of 28 the wil'na t'ahl? 29 A Certainly my sister Beverly Alexander who lives in 30 Seattle will get the same kind of food given to me 31 from Sinankxws. That she will set aside a portion for 32 my sister Beverly Alexander, or for my sister Barbara 33 Clifton, or for my brothers Don, James and Eric. 34 Q They don't -- they live within the territories? 35 A They live within the territory. It's her 36 responsibility, as I said before lunch, that as our 37 wilksi witxw she makes sure -- she makes certain that 38 we are well provided for. 39 Q Okay. Your sister Barbara, has she ever supplied food 40 from outside of the territories? 41 A Yes. Through her in-laws from Hartley Bay that she 42 would bring herring eggs that she had obtained from 43 her in-laws, clams, seaweed, cockles. Those would be 44 the food items that she would bring to mother's house. 45 Q The — 46 A Or sometimes to my house. 47 Q The -- in relation to your last response, when you 5026 J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Jackson 1 receive fish and berries from within the Gitksan 2 territories how are they delivered to you? 3 A Sometimes mother's house serves as a depot for -- for 4 our family. That our wilksi witxw leaves the food 5 items at our house. When we go there we can pick them 6 up. Or sometimes they are delivered to us directly if 7 possible, or sometimes they are given to us at the 8 feast. 9 Q This morning you gave some evidence of the 10 significance of the -- the raising of the totem pole 11 which your house plans. Are there any other aspects 12 of that pole raising which you can talk about in terms 13 of the significance of that event in the life of your 14 house? 15 A Certainly it's a way of maintaining the heritage 16 from -- from our grandfathers, and in making sure that 17 the pole is put up again. We have taken it down to 18 restore it, and also to put a new one with an added 19 crest to indicate that it's my pole as opposed to the 20 previous owner. It's a way of reaffirming and 21 confirming the Dax gyet of Hanamuxw. It's a way of 22 establishing that the property of Hanamuxw has not 23 been abandoned, nor will it be in the future. It's a 24 way of telling the other chiefs that the house is as 25 strong as it was before, and that it will continue to 26 exist because we do have a fair number of people in 27 our houses who will continue with the activities 28 within the House of Hanamuxw who will ensure that it 29 will continue in the future. It's also a way of 30 releasing the spirits of those who have passed on. 31 It's a way of giving thanks for having had them in -- 32 in your house. It's a way of giving recognition to 33 the contributions that they have made to your house. 34 It's a way of acknowledging to our creator too the 35 privilege of having had them share their lives with 36 you. It's a way of saying that we have completed the 37 business of caring for them. It's a way of saying 38 that they have added a dimension to our lives. And 39 when I say our lives I'm talking about the members of 40 my house, and to you as an individual. And it's a way 41 of saying that we respect them, and we are saying that 42 they were important to us. That's it. 43 Q Chief Hanamuxw, your mother, Gwaans, gave evidence in 44 this court regarding the first salmon ceremony. Is 45 that something which takes place in a contemporary 46 context? Is it something which you yourself have 47 participated? 5027 J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Jackson 1 A Yes. If I am in the territory when the first salmon 2 arrives I -- like all wildlife you can't always 3 accurately predict when they will arrive. I would 4 say, yes. And in the modern context it's a very 5 private type of ceremony. You do it within the 6 confines of your home. The first thing that you do is 7 you give thanks to your creator for providing you with 8 the salmon. You ask him to protect the species. You 9 ask him to replenish the species. You ask the creator 10 to protect the fishermen as they go and harvest the 11 river that no harm will come to them. And that you 12 ask forgiveness from your creator for having to 13 destroy the creatures smaller than you are in order 14 for your own life to be sustained. That's it. 15 Q This morning you gave in your evidence when I asked 16 you regarding -- I asked you how you exercised your 17 authority and you gave us as an example of a case in 18 which your authority is exercised in conjunction with 19 other chiefs the land claims and this case, initiation 20 of this case. Are there any other examples which you 21 can tell the court regarding collective decision 22 making by the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en chiefs? 23 A One other example that I can give you is the decision 24 made by the Gitwingax band to do a blockade on the 25 Canadian National Railway tracks. The Gitwingax Band 26 had invited the chiefs from the other Gitksan villages 27 as witnesses to their decision to do the blockade. It 28 was a collective decision to do the blockade. And 29 when the action plan was going to be put into effect 30 I received a phone call from Ken Russell, who's the 31 chief councillor at Gitsegukla, asking me to attend a 32 meeting to finalize the plan to do the blockade. At 33 the time I had a chest cold and found it was 34 impossible for me to return to Gitwingax for the 35 meeting, so the nearest person who could delegate my 36 authority was my brother James, K'amxtsi kaax, at 37 Gitwingax. I explained to him what the meeting was 38 going to be about. I explained to him what my 39 decision was with regard to this issue, that I 40 certainly would lend my support to the decision of the 41 Gitwingax to do the blockade. He consented to sit in 42 on the meeting. And he was able to work alongside the 43 members of the Gitwingax Band to do the blockade. He 44 was an active participant in that action on my behalf 45 on behalf of the House Hanamuxw. And I was getting 46 reports both from K'amxtsi kaax and Maas Gaak 47 regarding progress of that situation on a daily basis. 5028 J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Jackson 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 A 5 6 THE COURT 7 A 8 THE COURT 9 A 10 THE COURT 11 A 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 MR. JACKS' 20 Q 21 22 A 23 24 Q 25 26 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 31 Q 32 33 A 34 35 36 Q 37 38 39 A 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 MS. KOENI 47 This is your brother James and brother Don? Along with television reports as well. Yes. Are there any other examples beyond that one? Certainly the problem regarding the overlap of the territories in the Nishga' territory. : I'm sorry. Which territory? Nishga'. : Nishga'? Nishga'. : Oh. Thank you. At these meetings my mother, Gwaans, represented me, or Maas Gaak. I was able to attend personally a couple of the meetings regarding the overlap, but they certainly had more than four meetings regarding the overlap. That's another example of where the chiefs had to have a collective stand on a declaratory issue, and where it was important that the Gitksan chiefs lend their support. )N: And are there any other examples which come to your mind at this time? Not at the moment. I may have to think some more about this particular question. Now, I would like you to look at Exhibit 29, tab 2. Would you look through that document. Have you seen that document before? Yes, I have. And have you reviewed it? Yes, but I'm just double-checking now to see whether all the information is down. Is that document an accurate statement of the members of the House of Hanamuxw? Yes, to this point in time I would say it is. And by saying that I am hoping that I will have additional members in the future. Have you in your capacity as Hanamuxw ever agreed to the regulation of fishing at the sites of Hanamuxw by the Federal Government? No. And my reason for that is that it's my territory, and the regulations that would apply to my territory would have to be first of all my regulations, and then to the larger issue the Gitksan regulations. My regulations have to coincide certainly with what the Gitksan Nation considers to be their regulations for governing everything connected with the territories. 5SBERG: Excuse me, my lord. I don't know if we are going any further with this. I simply rise to say 5029 J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Jackson 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE COURT MR. THE MR. THE THE THE THE that it is my understanding this area, as it appears to be going directly to the jurisdiction of Federal Government, is not properly raised in the pleadings and should not be admitted into evidence. I don't see the relevance of this particular one to the social system. We are not really talking about the effect of something that Fisheries may have done. JACKSON: My lord, I wasn't going to pursue this matter -- COURT: All right. JACKSON: -- Beyond that single question. COURT: All right. JACKSON: But I don't accede to my friend's objection in terms of it is a matter of the extent of the authority, and I think it is properly a matter for evidence. Well, it may raise all kinds of problems of paramountcy, and other things that I'm sure can be heard in due course. JACKSON: On legal argument. COURT: The evidence is in, and the objection is noted, and Mr. Jackson is going to move on to something else so I won't trouble any of you, including myself, with any further comment. Thank you. JACKSON: Q Yesterday afternoon at around this time when we started on your evidence you had described your early education and your early training as a Gitksan chief. Have you taken any steps as part of your responsibilities as a Gitksan chief to ensure that other members of the House of Hanamuxw are educated in the Gitksan way? Yes. I'll go back to the responsibility that K'amxtsi kaax has with regard to training the nephews in my house, and I can give you one particular example of how we are coping with that at the present time. James has taught Andy Clifton a great deal about the territory. I'm sorry. This is James your brother teaching his son? James my brother, yes. Teaching his son? No. Teaching his nephew. His nephew? Yes. Is that your nephew as well? Yes, he would have to be my nephew as well. And the nephew's name? A THE COURT A COURT A COURT A COURT A COURT 5030 J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Jackson 1 A Andy Clifton Jr.. 2 THE COURT: Thank you. 3 A Andy at the moment along with learning about our 4 territories from my brother James, K'amxtsi kaax, he 5 is presently taking a forestry course where he is 6 expanding his knowledge about forestry management so 7 that he would do a better job of taking care of the 8 resources on my territories. The course he's taking 9 was organized by the tribal council on behalf of the 10 chiefs as a way of ensuring that forestry resources on 11 the territories are taken care of. They wanted the 12 young people to have the technical skills that would 13 enable us to take care of the resources, to protect 14 them the best way that we know how, and to make sure 15 that we have forestry resources in the future. This 16 is another example of where the request for education 17 is coming from the people, and seeking outside help to 18 make sure that education is given to the young people 19 for the benefit of the Gitksan Nation. It is done 20 with the idea that the resources are important not 21 just to the people, not just the human resources, but 22 also to the animal resources as well, because if we 23 destroy the habitat of the animals, in essence, we are 24 destroying the animals as well. 25 Q In terms of the adaawk, the history of your house, 26 have arrangements been made for the carrying on of 27 that part of Gitksan education? 28 A Yes. Certainly my mother, Gwaans, is doing that. 29 A Certainly other members of the wil'na t'ahl like Gwis 30 gyen, for instance, every time we go to his house 31 there will be occasions when he will be telling us 32 about the rules and regulations of the Gitksan. He 33 will be telling us about the adaawk. Certainly our 34 wilksi witxw is responsible not just in training the 35 chiefs but also the other members of my family. Our 36 wilksi witxw has a responsibility of ensuring all the 37 members in my immediate family have the same knowledge 38 as I have. 39 Q In terms of the protocol, the correct behavior, 40 conducting oneself at a feast, have arrangements been 41 made -- are arrangements underway to ensure that 42 younger members of your house are educated in that? 43 A Yes. My mother, Gwaans, is doing that whenever we 44 sponsor a feast, or whenever the wil'na t'ahl sponsor 45 a feast. It has also been part of my responsibility 46 too to inform the younger members of my family before 47 a feast is called on what I expect them to do when -- 5031 J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Jackson 1 when we're at the feast hall. 2 Q I would like you to -- could you look at Exhibit 29, 3 tab 9. Could you identify for the court of whom is 4 that a photograph? 5 A My great grandmother, Fanny Johnson. 6 Q Chief Hanamuxw, is there a piece of the regalia which 7 belongs to the House of Hanamuxw which symbolizes the 8 role you have described of Hanamuxw as an ambassador? 9 A Certainly the hat worn by my great grandmother, Fanny 10 Johnson. 11 Q Do you have that hat in your possession? 12 A Yes, I have my hat. 13 Q Do you have that with you in court today? 14 A Yes, I have. 15 Q Could you show that -- that hat to the court? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And that is the same hat which is -- 18 A Yes. It's the same hat that you see in this 19 photograph. 2 0 Q Do you know how old that hat is, Chief Hanamuxw? 21 A I can give you an approximate time. From what we can 22 establish within our family this hat was before the 2 3 time of Johnny Hanamuxw. 24 Q So going back in terms of those who have held Hanamuxw 25 could you just go back through your successors -- your 26 predecessors? 27 A I'm not there yet. 28 Q Your predecessors who have held the name of Hanamuxw 2 9 who would have worn that hat? 30 A I don't think I could do it without the genealogy 31 chart. 32 THE COURT: Well, look at the chart by all means. 33 THE REGISTRAR: It's tab 2. 34 THE COURT: Well, we're there already, aren't we, because she 35 said she got it from Jeffery Johnson. 36 MR. JACKSON: Jeffery Johnson. 37 THE COURT: And ahead of her could only be Johnny Hanamuxw, who 38 was, or I gather Fanny Johnson, would it not? 3 9 MR. JACKSON: 4 0 Q Well, Fanny Johnson was Hanamuxw? 41 A Yes. 42 Q And before Fanny Johnson? 4 3 A Johnny. 4 4 Q Johnny Hanamuxw? 4 5 THE COURT: Yes. 46 4 7 MR. JACKSON: 5032 J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Jackson 1 Q Chief Hanamuxw, have you in your mind lived up to the 2 responsibilities of the name of Hanamuxw when those 3 responsibilities were laid on you in 1966? 4 A I have attempted to live up to the name of Hanamuxw by 5 continually attending as many of the feasts as 6 possible in my own territory, by continually 7 delegating my responsibilities to the members of my 8 house, by continuing to support the collective actions 9 of the chiefs on whatever issues that are important to 10 the Gitksan Nation. I feel that in moving outside of 11 the territory I have lived up to one of the 12 expectations of Hanamuxw, that I am working with other 13 Indian groups to improve the lives of the Indian 14 people not only of the Gitksan territory, but also in 15 British Columbia as a whole. I feel that I am 16 encouraging members of my family to continue to take 17 an active part in the businesses conducted by my 18 house. I am living up to that responsibility by 19 encouraging that. James is doing the training for me 20 for the nephews that I have in my house. I'm living 21 up to it by saying that the history of the House of 22 Hanamuxw is to be preserved, and that whenever 23 possible the Dax gyet of Hanamuxw be reaffirmed. And 24 that we do our public relations as much as possible 25 from the House of Hanamuxw making sure that the 26 message gets out to the other chiefs that our house is 27 firmly established within the Gitksan territory. And 28 at the present time there is no sign that there would 29 be a demise of the House of Hanamuxw. 30 MR. JACKSON: I'm wondering if we could take a break for a few 31 moments, my lord. 32 THE COURT: Yes. All right. I have to take another adjournment 33 at three o'clock, but I'll be glad to stand down for a 34 moment. 35 MR. JACKSON: Thank you. 36 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court will take a short recess. 37 38 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS) 39 40 THE REGISTRAR: Ready to proceed. 41 THE COURT: Mr. Jackson. 42 MR. JACKSON: Yes. I just have one question more for this 43 witness, my lord. 44 Q Chief Hanamuxw, when you were talking about the 45 blockade at CN at Gitwingax, who initiated the 46 meetings regarding that particular event? 47 A Certainly it would be the chiefs, the hereditary 5033 J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Jackson Cross-exam by Mr. Plant 1 chiefs of Gitwingax that would initiate that action, 2 complimented of course by the involvement of the 3 council band. 4 MR. JACKSON: Those are all my questions, my lord. 5 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. Mr. Plant, are you going 6 next? 7 MR. PLANT: Yes, I think so. 8 9 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT: 10 Q Chief Hanamuxw, you've said just now that it was the 11 hereditary chiefs who initiated the meetings regarding 12 the blockade at the -- on the CN track. Did you 13 attend those meetings? 14 A My delegates did. As I explained to you I had a cold 15 and couldn't come to the village. I received a 16 personal invitation to attend the meeting, but with a 17 chest cold it wasn't impossible to be in Gitwingax. 18 Q Would I be correct then in assuming your understanding 19 of who it was that had initiated the meetings has come 20 to you from what others have told you? 21 A Certainly from the invitation that I received, the 22 person who issued the invitation explained to me who 23 had initiated the plan. It was really important to 24 them. It was really important for that person to 25 explain to me who initiated the plan for many of the 26 other chiefs know what Hanamuxw's stand will be if it 27 was not the hereditary chiefs that called that action 28 for that meeting. Chances are the answer would have 29 been no rather than yes, I'm going to send a delegate 30 to your meeting, and that I will lend my support to 31 this action, this collective action that the Gitwingax 32 chiefs are seeking. 33 Q Thank you. When did this blockade occur? 34 A This would be in December '85. 35 Q You told us about Virginia Moore as you described her 36 as someone who had originally come from Tsimxsan 37 background, and who after a period of years now is 38 an -- after a period of years of living in Gitwingax 39 is now the kindergarten teacher in Gitwingax? 40 A Nursery kindergarten. 41 Q Nursery kindergarten? 42 A Yes, that is correct. 43 Q How many years did she live in Gitwingax in order to 44 acquire the necessary facility with Gitksan, the 45 language? 46 A I would say her oldest child is 19. She would have 47 been with the Gitwingax people approximately 21 years. 5034 J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Plant 1 Q Is she the instructor in the nursery and kindergarten 2 school? 3 A At the moment she is, yes. She has full 4 responsibility of taking care of the program of the 5 school, the operation of the school. The school is 6 not located as the same, or is in the same location as 7 the primary -- primary school in Gitwingax. And when 8 I say primary it's Grades 1, 2 and 3. 9 Q What are the languages or language in which she 10 conducts her classes? 11 A The nursery kindergarten was planned as a bilingual 12 program, so instruction for part of the day would have 13 to be in Gitksan, and certainly part of the day would 14 have to be in English in preparation for teaching the 15 children how to read and write the English language. 16 Q What are the subjects that are taught, if that's not 17 putting it too rigorously given that we are only 18 talking about a nursery kindergarten program? 19 A The kindergarten program is not as tightly organized 20 as the -- as is the program for Grades 1, 2 and 3, and 21 all the other grade levels. Their subjects tend to be 22 integrated, but the components of the program are 23 similar, or in some cases identical as the curriculum 24 for Grades 1 and 2. The components that are stressed 25 in -- in the program would be science, social studies, 26 health, physical education, reading, certainly plenty 27 of opportunities to do oral -- oral work. And this 28 usually involves taking small groups of children. We 29 described having small groups of children working 30 together as centres. So she would have different 31 centres within the -- within the room where the 32 children can or take in the activities. Certainly 33 arithmetic is part of it, that they have to learn how 34 to count. Certainly they have to learn manners that 35 they learn how to work together as a social unit. 36 They learn to respect opinions of each other. They 37 learn to adapt to the idea of working in a group. 38 This is particularly true of children who come from a 39 family that has only a single child in it, and so it's 40 important that they learn the social skills of 41 interacting with others. And this is the basis on 42 which the nursery program is organized. It's a 43 prerequisite to kindergarten to get the children used 44 to the idea of having to work with other children, 45 learn the skills of listening, and yet at the same 46 time learning how to practice the skills of using the 47 English language so that they can be effective 5035 J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Plant 1 cummunicators within a group setting. 2 Q Do the children have exposure to the Gitksan customs 3 and legends, the adaawk, the histories, songs, things 4 of that nature in the context of this program? 5 A Certainly, yes. 6 Q And does that exposure continue on into what I think 7 you called the primary school, and I'm assuming that 8 we're speaking of the school on the reserve at 9 Gitwingax? 10 A Yes, I am. I cannot give you a firm answer about that 11 one. I was involved in designing the program for the 12 nursery and the kindergarten program, and certainly at 13 that point there was discussion as to whether the band 14 would continue with a plan of including the Grades 1, 15 2 and 3, and the school on the reserve. And the plan 16 at the time was that whatever the content was at the 17 kindergarten level would definitely be included in 18 Grades 1 and 2. I cannot say for sure whether that 19 plan has been carried out or not, because I just have 20 not checked with the band to see if they have gone 21 that far in their -- 22 Q The program at any rate for the kindergarten and 23 nursery education level does include exposure to the 24 things I mentioned a minute ago, the components of 25 Gitksan culture, if I may put it that way? 26 A Yes. I can skip Grades 1 and 2 and 3 and say that as 27 far as the curriculum is concerned as far as the 28 Provincial schools at the Grade 4 level that one has a 29 very strong content -- strong native content in its 30 social studies program. And to my knowledge they do 31 include that in the high school where you have Grade 4 32 students attending right up to Grade 10. And there's 33 a limited content in the high school curriculum for 34 Indian designs. 35 Q You were asked to identify Exhibit 375, which is a 36 list of feasts that you've attended since November of 37 1985. On the first page the first name there is Sam 38 Sampare. 39 A M'hm. 40 Q What house is he from? 41 A From the frog clan. 42 Q Do you know what the name of his house was? Do you 43 know who the head chief of the house was that Sam 44 Sampare was in? 45 A I'm going through -- sorry. I'm going through my head 46 the names of the people. I need to sort out the 47 people in my head. 5036 J. Ryan (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Plant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q Well, you've had a minute or two to think about it, Chief Hanamuxw. Are you narrowing the options down? A Not quite, because I tend to have -- like I'm going through the genealogies, and there are a couple of areas where I tend to confuse them. And I know I said in my statement at the beginning that I'm going to have to tell the truth, and I'm still trying to sort that out. Should we take the afternoon adjournment then, Mr. Plant? Yes, THE COURT MR. PLANT THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court will recess, (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED) I hereby certify the foregoing to be a true and accurate transcript of the proceedings herein to the best of my skill and ability. Peri McHale, Official Reporter UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 5037 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Plant (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS) JOAN RYAN, Resumed: CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT: (Continued) MR. THE MR. THE PLANT: Q COURT PLANT COURT A THE COURT A THE COURT MR. PLANT THE MR. COURT PLANT A Q A A Q A Ms. Ryan, could I ask you to turn to or have put before you, Exhibit 29. Are you leaving Exhibit 375? Yes, I am. Can I ask, where it says fence in several places, does that mean feast? Yes, feast for fence and headstone. But I will give you the answer to the one, I finally sorted out my files in my head and the person who sponsored the feast for Tsimxsan was Luukoon and that house is from Kitwancool. What I am really concerned about, it says in several places headstone fence, does that mean headstone -- There should be a slash between the headstone and fence. Sometimes the feast is just for the headstone alone, sometimes it's a combination of the headstone and the fence. I don't think, I may be wrong, I don't think I have heard of a fence previously in this trial, though it may have been mentioned. The previous witness, Mr. Mathews, gave some evidence about a fence feast. I missed that. Perhaps that does raise a matter that I -- that might arise out of exhibit 375. You also want me to refer to -- Not yet, because the question that his lordship asked has suggested a question that I would like to pursue. Firstly, do I understand you correctly that the headstone feast and the fence feast, may occur as two separate feasts? Certainly, depends when the projects were completed. Sometimes the fence feast will occur first before the headstone or they can be done together. Does the fence feast refer to the erection of a fence around the tombstone in the graveyard? Around the plot. Around the plot? Yes. And certainly you can put the headstone inside the fence. 503E J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Plant 1 Q Yes. There is also the funeral feast? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And am I correct in assuming that the funeral feast, 4 the headstone feast, the fence feast are, although 5 perhaps not in that order, the sequence of feasts that 6 occur after the death of a Gitksan person? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And that lead up to the taking of a name by the 9 successor? 10 A Not necessarily. The name can be transferred at the 11 funeral feast and the feast for the headstone or the 12 fence, or the combination of the headstone and fence, 13 can take place after the funeral feast. It depends 14 really on the decision of the house. If they have a 15 successor to the name, then the name is passed on to 16 that person at the funeral feast. If they feel that 17 they do not have a suitable candidate for that title, 18 that title can be put aside temporarily until a 19 candidate is selected. But that doesn't mean that 20 it's the end of the house, just because they put that 21 title aside while they are preparing the successor. 22 But that would have to be a decision of the house and 23 wil'na t'ahl and wilksiwitxu. 24 Q In your case was the transfer of the rights and 25 responsibilities that go with the name Hanamuxw, was 26 that transfer to you complete on the occasion of 27 Jeffery Johnson's funeral feast in 1966? 28 A Complete in the sense that I take full responsibility 29 and with the privilege of appointing my brother, 30 James, K'amxtsi kaax, as the caretaker of the 31 territory and also the privilege of appointing my 32 mother, Gwaans, as the historian for the House of 33 Hanamuxw and accepting the fact that Gwis gyen also be 34 the historian for the house of Hanamuxw. 35 Q Was there something that remained undone? 36 A Yes, certainly the establishment of a headstone was 37 left undone at the feast. And this is normal, this is 38 not really unusual that the headstone is not or is not 39 part of the business that you conduct at the funeral 40 feast. You make plans to establish the headstone and 41 the fence at the funeral feast, usually at that feast 42 you appoint someone who will take on the project of 43 building a fence, if it's necessary, if a fence is 44 already there in the family plot, then it's not 45 necessary for you to appoint someone to be in charge 46 of that project. And also you can, at the same time, 47 appoint someone to purchase the headstone and make 5039 J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Plant 1 sure it's established in a plot where the body has 2 been buried. There are a number of things that would 3 determine exactly when those items are to be 4 completed, usually you establish a time line as to 5 when you think the projects are to be completed. And 6 that's usually the responsibility of the house to 7 decide when these are done. If they do have a person 8 appointed as successor to the deceased person, then it 9 would be his responsibility to appoint the person to 10 construct the fence, to purchase the headstone and 11 make sure that it is put in place. So that's part of 12 the of the business you conduct at the funeral feast. 13 Q If I can just interrupt there, when the headstone 14 feast for Jeffery Johnson was, you mentioned 15 eventually held in November of 1985, did that have any 16 consequence for your rights and responsibilities as 17 chief Hanamuxw? 18 A No, because it was explained to the funeral feast that 19 the headstone would be established. 20 Q And you had become a full chief, in every sense of the 21 word, at the funeral feast? 22 A Oh, yes, yes. 23 Q Now, I would like to ask you to turn to the book, 24 Exhibit 29, and in particular, the documents at tab 25 number three of that book, which are two in number. 26 The first is a head table of Gisk'aast, Gitsegukla and 27 Ganeda, and the second, if I am looking at the same 28 thing, is a document entitled Gisk'aast, table by the 29 door. Now, you told us in your evidence, told the 30 court in your evidence about the importance of your 31 brother's, Don and James to you in the carrying out of 32 your functions as Chief Hanamuxw. Could you identify 33 for me, where, if anywhere, on either of these two 34 seating charts those two gentlemen would be sitting? 35 A James would be sitting right here. 36 Q Across from you? 37 A Across from me. 38 Q And that's because he is your successor? 39 A Yes, he is in line. 40 Q And then your brother Don? 41 A Would be here. 42 Q You were pointing -- does he sit across from your 43 mother? 44 A Yes. 45 Q Is there some uncertainty there? Does he sometimes 46 have a seat on the other side of the table? 47 A Depends, yes. If James is not there then Don would be 5040 J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Plant 1 there too. 2 Q All right. Just to explain what I think you have 3 done, so that it will appear on the record, if James 4 is not at a feast then Don will sit in James's seat 5 across from you? 6 A Yes, across, yes. 7 Q If you are not there, does your seat remain vacant or 8 does James move across to sit in your seat? 9 A No, usually my seat, and this is the way they handle 10 it with the other chiefs, if you are not there, then 11 your seat is vacant. 12 Q Now, if you are there, and James is there, where does 13 Don sit? 14 A On this table. 15 Q And that's the second table in the exhibit. And where 16 does he sit at that table, across the table from your 17 mother? 18 A Hm-hmm. 19 Q Is that correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q What does your brother James's name mean in English, 22 if translated? 23 A I am not too sure whether I can exactly translate it 24 in English. There might be portions of it missing but 25 I will try. The way I understand it it means you are 26 cutting it only with your teeth. You don't have any 27 other tool to cut it with. 28 Q Did that name exist in the House of Hanamuxw before 29 you became chief? 30 A It has always been a part of the House of Hanamuxw. 31 Q Chief Hanamuxw, by becoming a chief of the Gitksan, do 32 you acquire spiritual power? 33 A We don't believe that you acquire spiritual power, we 34 feel that the spirit is always a part of you, right 35 from the start. And it is up to you to develop and 36 strengthen that spiritual power. 37 Q But does the same spirit, is the same spirit part of 38 every Gitksan person or is it limited only to those 39 who are chiefs or are destined to become chiefs? 40 A We believe that every human being has a spirit so it 41 would be in every Gitksan person as well as anybody 42 else. 43 MR. PLANT: Thank you very much, Chief Hanamuxw. Those are all 44 my questions. 45 MS. KOENIGSBERG: I have no questions, my lord. 4 6 THE COURT: Thank you, Mrs. Ryan. You were excused. 47 THE COURT: Sorry, I haven't asked Mr. Jackson if he wanted to 5041 J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Plant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 re-examine. MR. JACKSON: Trying to deprive me of my moment of glory to stand up and say I have no re-examination. THE COURT: All right. Thank you, Mrs. Ryan. (Witness aside) MR. GRANT: My lord, maybe Mr. Jackson should lead more evidence, because the cross is much shorter than when I lead evidence. THE COURT: Yes, it certainly is. MS. KOENSIGBERG: Don't take it personally. MR. GRANT: I don't take it personally. MR. PLANT: My lips are sealed. MR. GRANT: In any event, what has happened as a result of this and as a result of the predictions and prognosis between myself and Mr. Rush and anticipation is that the next witness is not available. We anticipated that Mrs. Ryan would go until tomorrow afternoon, from my earlier discussions both with Mr. Jackson and the other witness. I don't know if that is a good sign or a bad sign. It is near the end of the fourth week and what I would propose is that my friend Mr. Plant had this motion, this application, and that that application could be heard on Friday morning as had been planned. I spoke with Mr. Rush today and he will be dealing with that application. If that's a great difficulty for the court or my friend, then I could try to reach Mr. Rush and see if we could readjust it but I talked to him at noon. I anticipated even then that Hanamuxw's evidence would go until tomorrow noon. THE COURT: Mr. Plant, is it convenient for you to stand this matter down then until Friday morning? But I can say that if it's convenient to Mr. Rush and Mr. Plant and whoever else is involved, I could hear it tomorrow instead of Friday. MR. PLANT: I prefer you hear it tomorrow but obviously I am prepared to meet Mr. Rush's convenience. THE COURT: Well, you can communicate with the registry. If you can move it forward and have it tomorrow, and that's convenient, I will hear it tomorrow. Other than that we can hear it Friday. And in that case we wouldn't be sitting tomorrow. MR. GRANT: All that we would have on the is then the evidence -- THE COURT: I have some mildly bad news for you, if we are going to be down for an extensive period, I must ask counsel 5042 J. Ryan (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Plant 1 to remove things from the room. Probably have to use 2 the room during that three week period. So I think we 3 will not move the court exhibits out, Madam Registrar 4 will look after them. But it may be necessary that we 5 will need the room. 6 MR. GRANT: We anticipated that. 7 THE COURT: You are excused and we will adjourn until 10 o'clock 8 on Friday, unless counsel can let me know they can 9 proceed tomorrow. 10 11 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED ACCORDINGLY) 12 13 14 15 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 16 a true and accurate transcript of the 17 proceedings herein to the best of my 18 skill and ability. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Wilf Roy 26 Official Reporter 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47"@en ; edm:hasType "Trial proceedings"@en ; dcterms:spatial "British Columbia"@en ; dcterms:identifier "KEB529.5.L3 B757"@en, "KEB529_5_L3_B757_1988-03-23_02"@en ; edm:isShownAt "10.14288/1.0019300"@en ; dcterms:language "English"@en ; dcterms:subject "Uukw, Delgam, 1937-"@en, "Indigenous peoples--Canada"@en, "Oral history"@en, "Wet'suwet'en First Nation"@en ; edm:provider "Vancouver : University of British Columbia Library"@en ; dcterms:publisher "Vancouver : United Reporting Service Ltd."@en ; dcterms:rights "Images provided for research and reference use only. For permission to publish, copy, or otherwise distribute these images, please contact the Courts of British Columbia: http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/"@en ; dcterms:source "Original Format: University of British Columbia. Library. Law Library."@en ; dcterms:title "[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-03-23, 2]"@en ; dcterms:type "Text"@en .