Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Commission Evidence of Lucy Bazil] British Columbia. Supreme Court Nov 23, 1987

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 1  2 November 23, 1987  3 Smithers, B.C.  4  5 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  This is the commencement of the commission  6 evidence of Lucy Bazil which has been authorized by  7 court order on September 8th.  For the record I am  8 Peter Grant, counsel for the plaintiffs in this  9 action, and with me -- or I'm sorry, in the room as  10 well is counsel for the Federal Crown, Marvyn  11 Koenigsberg and Loryl Russell, and counsel for the  12 Province, Tim Mackenzie and Thora Sigurdson.  Also Mr.  13 Ron Mitchell is the word person, that is, the person  14 who will provide the spellings of Wet'suwet'en words  15 and he is present as well as George Holland who's the  16 translator from Wet'suwet'en into English, and of  17 course the witness Miss Lucy Bazil Verigin.  And for  18 the record I want to confirm that the translator Mr.  19 Holland will not be translating everything that Mrs.  20 Bazil says.  I anticipate that the bulk of the  21 commission evidence will be taken in the English  22 language, but she has requested his presence for  23 questions in particular that she may not understand  24 and he should be sworn to translate from English to  25 Wet'suwet'en and from Wet'suwet'en to English.  The  26 witness Mrs. Bazil has been sworn.  Possibly you could  27 swear the translator as well please, madam reporter?  28  29 (INTERPRETER SWORN IN)  30  31 MR. GRANT:  Now, before I commence, the other procedure that I  32 confirmed with counsel for both the Province and  33 Canada before we commenced was that at certain times  34 Mr. Mitchell may come -- a word in Wet'suwet'en may be  35 given which he has not anticipated being led and he  36 may wish to speak with Mr. Holland.  It's agreed that  37 Mr. Mitchell is the person responsible for the  38 spelling of the words.  It's his spelling that will be  39 used as a standardized spelling and as he has been the  40 person basically responsible for spelling of words  41 through this trial from Wet'suwet'en to English -- or  42 I mean the Wet'suwet'en words, but if he does wish to  43 speak with Mr. Holland he will indicate so and I  44 understand it's agreed that we'll go off the record  45 for a moment so they can discuss it.  That's just the  46 spelling of words.  47 I'm ready to commence unless counsel for either 6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  1 Canada or British Columbia have anything to say before  2 I start?  3 MS. KOENIGSBERG: No.  4  5 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT:  Mrs. Bazil, you have been sworn to tell the truth on  this commission evidence; is that right?  Yes.  And your name is Lucy Bazil Verigin?  Yes.  And although you were initially introduced as Lucy  Bazil, you have become married and you take the name  Verigin as well as Bazil?  Yes.  15 MR. GRANT:  And one point, I'm anticipating leading on the  16 introductory and please indicate where you have -- as  17 soon as you have any concern?  18 MS. KOENIGSBERG: We'll do that.  At least the Federal Crown  19 feels that you should lead through anything that's not  20 controversial.  21 MR. GRANT:  Mr. Mackenzie?  22 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, I agree.  2 3 MR. GRANT:  24 Q   Okay.  You are a Wet'suwet'en person?  25 A   Yes.  And your -- you hold a Wet'suwet'en chief's name?  Yes.  And what is that name?  Guhe'.  Okay.  Number 1 on the list.  This -- what does that  name mean?  It's Hazelton language.  It's -- they told me it's  mean gambling.  Gambler.  Gambler.  And when you say "Hazelton", it's a Gitksan  word?  Gitksan word. Yeah.  And you are a member of the House of Wah tah kwets?  Yes.  And who holds the name Wah tah kwets today?  John Namox.  Okay.  And is that -- you're a member of the Laksilyu  or Small Frog Clan?  Yes.  That's number 3.  And you're one of the chiefs in the  House of Wah tah kwets?  Yes.  Besides yourself and John Namox, who are the other  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q 1 chiefs in your house?  2 A   There's -- I already forgot the name.  3 Q   Okay. Do you --  4 A   I told you the name already, but it just won't come to  5 my mind right now.  6 Q   Okay.  Who's your brother?  7 A   Peter Jim.  8 Q   Okay.  Is he a chief in the House of Wah tah kwets?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And is his name Legiboo?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Do you know Pat Namox?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Is he the brother of John Namox?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And is he a chief in the House of Wah tah kwets?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And is his name K'askii bus?  19 A   K'askii bus.  Yes.  20 Q   Now, those people are all in the same house as you,  21 Wah tah kwets' House?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   In the Laksilyu clan are there people who are head  24 chiefs of the clan?  25 A   You mean on the side of the wall, my side?  26 Q   Yes.  27 A   Different house, but --  28 Q   In a different house?  2 9       A   Oh, I know what you mean.  Yes.  That's Hagwilnegh.  30 What was the other one?  31 MR. MACKENZIE: Excuse me, we're not getting the spelling for  32 these, Mr. Grant.  33 MR. GRANT:  I'm sorry.  Hagwilnegh is number 7.  Peter Jim  34 number 4.  Pat Namox is number 5.  35 MR. MACKENZIE: I don't think K'askii bus is on the —  36 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Yes.  It's spelled with a "K".  37 MR. MACKENZIE: I beg your pardon.  38 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  I understand that the — I know what  39 you're considering is that there's a Gitksan word  40 K'askii bus pronounced the same.  What you have here  41 is a Wet'suwet'en spelling of the word, okay?  42 MR. MACKENZIE: Which number was that, I'm sorry?  4 3 MR. GRANT:  Five.  44 MR. MACKENZIE: I beg your pardon.  45 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Mr. Grant, the very last word, Wet'suwet'en  46 word, for the concept you were introducing hasn't --  47 we don't have it.  I didn't get what it was. 1 MR. GRANT:  Well, she said Hagwilnegh.  2 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Okay.  3 MR. GRANT:  That's number 7.  I was asking who were the other  4 chiefs of the clan outside of her house; is that what  5 you're referring to?  6 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Uh-huh.  7 MR. GRANT:  8 Q She said Hagwilnegh, and that's number 7.  9 Okay.  So Hagwilnegh is one of the head chiefs of  10 the clan --  11 A Yes.  12 Q -- of the Laksilyu?  Is Wah tah kwets a head chief of  13 the Laksilyu?  14 A Yes.  15 Q Is there any other that you recall?  16 A Wah tah keght is one of them I know.  17 Q That's number 6 on the list.  And that name is held by  18 Henry Alfred?  19 A Yes.  20 Q And Hagwilnegh was held by Sylvester Williams until he  21 died?  22 A Yes.  23 Q Is there a name for the House of Wah tah kwets?  24 A Kwen beegh Yex.  25 Q Eight.  What does that name mean?  26 A House beside the fire.  27 Q Okay.  Is there a name for the House of Wah tah keght?  28 A Let's see.  It's on the end of my tongue.  29 Q Have you told me the name of the House of Wah tah  30 keght in the past?  31 A I told you, but it's -- the names is terrible with my  32 mind.  When somebody asks the questions it just  33 disappears.  34 Q Okay.  Is that — is —  35 A Something to do with rock.  36 Q Okay.  Is that name Tse k'al k'a yex?  Is that the  37 proper pronunciation?  38 A Tse k'al k'a yex.  I think that's what it is. Yeah.  39 Q That's number 9.  What does that name mean?  40 A I think it means the house on the rock.  41 Q Okay.  Is there a name for the House of Hagwilnegh?  42 A G'e neegh la yex.  43 Q Okay.  Number 10.  And what does that name mean?  44 A I think it means the House of many eyes.  45 Q I may refer to you at times as Mrs. Bazil, you don't  4 6 mind?  47 A It's okay. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Because I'm used to referring to that.  Yes.  Where were you born?  I was born at Houston.  And what's your birth date?  March 20, 1920.  Okay.  And when you say Houston, is that near where  the present location of the town of Houston which is  on Highway 16 east of Smithers?  Yes.  And you said you had a brother Peter Jim?  Yes.  Where was Peter born?  At my father's territory at Buck Flat.  Buck Flat is B-u-c-k, one word, F-l-a-t.  And he was born on January 1st, 1915?  Yes.  And what was your mother's name?  Mary Louise Joseph.  Okay.  And where was she born?  Ootsa Lake.  And whose territory was that?  I guess it's her father's side, the territory up  there.  Okay.  So when you say "her father's side" you were  referring to your grandfather?  Yes.  Your mother's father?  Yes.  Okay.  Did your mother hold a Wet'suwet'en chief's  name?  Yes.  Which one?  She had Guhe'.  Okay.  Was your mother Wet'suwet'en?  Yes.  And your father?  Yes.  Do you know the name of your mother's mother?  Susan.  Susan Joseph -- oh, no, Susan Tsuhtlii I  think.  That's number 11.  And where did your mother's mother  come from?  Moricetown.  Do you know the name of your mother's father?  No.  Did — 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Oh, you mean my mother's father?  Your mother's father, yes?  Oh, yes, Tsuhtlii, that's all I remember.  Okay.  And do you know what clan he was from?  I understand it's Gilseyhu.  Number 12.  Was -- your mother was in the same clan in  the same house as you?  Yes.  Okay.  Do you remember either your grandmother, I'm  talking about your mother's parents now, or your  grandfather in your lifetime?  No.  Do you remember when your grandmother died?  Yes.  Can you tell me what you remember about that?  I was very young.  I didn't see too much of it.  I  just saw the coffin.  The reason I remember that I  guess because my mother start to cry when she saw the  coffin and I was hanging onto her.  That's the only  part I remember.  It was my mother's mother's coffin.  You said you were very young.  Do you recall about how  old you were?  I couldn't because I didn't remember the rest of it  and didn't remember how we got there, but at that  moment that's the only time I remember seeing the  coffin.  And did your mother's father die before you were born?  Yes.  Okay.  When did your own mother die?  1975.  Do you recall how old she was?  I think she was 84.  I can't remember very well.  Okay.  And what about your father, when did he die?  Around 1941.  Okay.  Okay.  I'm going to come back to your mother  and your father's relations, but I'd like to ask you  about your schooling experience and do you recall  anything about school when you were young where your  father endeavoured to have you put in school?  Yes, I remember that.  We -- in summer I had friends  of white children that were living in Houston.  I used  to go out and play with them all the time, and those  girls asked me to go to school so I asked my dad to  put me to school, my brothers older than me, and my  dad was willing.  And he said my mother was going to  stay in town because we had a house in Houston and he  was going to trap on his own and we're going to go to 7  1 school.  And then I went with him to school to find  2 out if he could get us in.  I was pretty happy about  3 that.  And then when we got there my father, I think  4 it was a teacher or principal I don't know who it is  5 he was talking to, and I understood he told him that  6 we can't because we're native people and they don't  7 want to mix with the Indian children and he mentioned  8 there's a residential school by Fraser Lake not too  9 far from here.  He said he could send us there.  10 That's the only way we can get to school.  And my dad  11 disagreed and he said "I'll just take them back in the  12 bush.  They don't have to go to school if I can't  13 get -- I don't want to send them away."  So he did.  14 He just took us back to his territory.  15 Q   About how old were you when this happened?  16 A  Must be about seven and eight, seven or eight,  17 something like that.  18 Q   Okay.  And you say your father said he would take you  19 back to the bush.  Where was he referring to?  20 A  Where he's trapping at his territory up at Buck Flat  21 because he has a home up there, so we went back there.  22 Q   Did you have any later experience with school?  23 A   In later years with Moricetown and all the children  24 were going to Le Jac school, and my cousins were going  25 and I wanted to go because -- my dad didn't want me to  26 go earlier, but at the time I beg my dad that I wanted  27 to go because all my cousins are going.  So finally he  2 8 gave in and he let me go.  I was 12 at the time.  But  29 when we got to that school there I was crying just  30 like you were in prison.  There was a lot of strict  31 rules and food wasn't right for us, but I would spend  32 two years there.  That's the only school I had.  33 Q   Okay.  There's one thing I just want to be clear.  You  34 said "when the principal" told your father that you  35 couldn't go into the school.  Were you there when the  36 principal said that?  37 A   Yes.  I was excited so I went with my dad.  I thought  38 I was going to start school.  39 Q   Now, you said when you went to residential school it  40 was like prison and there were strict rules.  Can you  41 explain -- give us some examples of those kinds of  42 rules and what happened there?  43 A  Well, we mostly spend in the chapel and — anything  44 we're going to do, and mostly we did a lot of work.  45 There was no time to have free time to yourself.  They  46 don't let us speak our own language.  47 Q   Well, would what would happen if you spoke your own 1 language?  2 A  We got a strap for that.  3 Q   Were the girls and the boys separated?  4 A   Yes.  We don't see them at all, just only when we go  5 to church or in classroom.  6 Q   Okay.  What was the work and school schedule like in  7 the day?  8 A   Early in the morning we got up and went to chapel,  9 then we start breakfast.  We go into breakfast, and  10 then we all divided up to each place we were going to  11 clean up, some in the kitchen, some in the laundry,  12 bakery, dairy, and rooms to be cleaned, hall ways,  13 church, all the rooms was the nuns' and priests'  14 offices, all that cleaning until about eleven o'clock.  15 And then we have one hour class before 12 and then  16 afternoon the same thing.  We go sewing room after  17 lunch and we there until four o'clock, and then  18 another one hour class four to five.  That's our day  19 is finished there.  20 Q   You said the rules were strict.  Can you give an  21 example?  I think you referred to something -- well,  22 can you give an example of it?  23 A  Well, there's -- everything was strict.  When we get  24 there they go through our suitcases and whatever we  25 have they take it all away.  Mirrors and thing like  26 that we're not supposed to look at ourself.  I don't  27 know why that was against the rules.  We don't even  28 look at our self.  We don't even know what we look  2 9 like until we come home.  No mirrors on the wall at  30 bath rooms.  There's a lot of other things were very  31 strict, the way we were dressed.  32 Q   How was that?  33 A   Their clothes we wear was all from the school.  We  34 can't wear our own clothes.  We don't speak our own  35 language.  When we get together somebody's always --  36 the nun close by.  If they heard us speak our own  37 language we would get a spanking right away.  38 Q   Did you know any English before you went there?  39 A   Yes, because I had friends, a lot of white children I  40 used to play with right in Houston.  41 Q   How long did you stay there?  42 A   Two years.  43 Q   Okay.  Was there anything that happened that was the  44 reason why you stopped going after two years?  45 A  My uncle Jack Joseph, he was the church chief in  46 Moricetown, and one of his daughter got hurt on the  47 swing in school. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  Q  32  33  34  35  A  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  45  Q  46  47  At Le Jac?  Yes.  She fell off.  One girl grabbed the swing  underneath her and she was pretty high and she fell  and she broke her back and she died not too long after  that.  So my uncle's the one put a stop to it and  nobody went back after that, just the orphan kids that  went back after that.  And when you say no one went back, was that none of  the Wet'suwet'en from Moricetown?  Yes.  Okay.  So your formal schooling, did it end at that  time?  Yes.  Did this have any effect on you later when you were  raising your own children?  Yes, it did.  The same place where I was turned down  that's where my oldest daughter starts school and they  start sending homework with my daughter to help her  with when she brings it home.  And I got upset about  it and I went to the school and I talked to her  teacher.  I told her I don't know anything about what  she's learning because I was turned down in the same  school and I didn't go to school.  I did went to  school, but it was at residential school.  I didn't  learn too much and I wish they don't send any homework  with my daughter because I can't help her.  And they  did.  They never send homework with her after that and  it went on the same way with the other childern.  I  moved to Smithers.  It was the same thing.  I just let  them know that I can't help them.  I'd like to return to ask you some further questions  about your mother's side of the family.  You said that  your mother's father died before you were born.  Do  you know where he was buried?  I understand my mother had a picture of the graveyard.  It was at Quick where my uncle's territory -- just up  here.  Okay.  And that's Quick?  That's that location?  Yes.  It's Round Lake where he was buried at.  Okay.  You've looked for this photograph and you  cannot find it?  I cannot find it.  I don't know who has it.  My mother  had it.  I seen it.  My grandmother was on that  picture.  Okay.  I'd like to refer you to an eight-page document  entitled "Kwen Beegh Yex - House Beside The Fire Wah  Tah Kwets - Laksilyu", and it's a genealogy chart. 10  1 Have you seen that chart before or a copy of that  2 chart?  3 A   Yes, I did.  4 Q   Okay.  Did you go over that chart with me?  5 A   Yes, I did.  6 Q   And does that show the members of your house?  7 A   Yes.  8 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  I'd ask that that be marked as Exhibit 1 in  9 these proceedings.  10  11 (EXHIBIT 1: Genealogy chart entitled "Kwen Beegh Yex -  12 House Beside the Fire. Wah tah kwets - Laksilyu")  13  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  Excuse me, Mr. Grant with respect to Exhibit 1  15 you handed me a copy of this genealogy this morning.  16 Does this copy that's now marked as Exhibit 1 have  17 changes from the copy that you delivered to us some  18 time ago?  19 MR. GRANT:  Uh-huh.  Yes.  We delivered an earlier copy — I  20 presume you want this on the record?  21 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, please.  22 MR. GRANT:  23 Q   This copy has changes from the copy that was delivered  24 to you as a result of a review.  First of all on the  25 first page the earlier copy showed the children of  26 Jerry Tait and Lorraine Tait.  Jerry Tait is a member  27 of the House of Wah tah kwets, but since he's the  28 father of these children they don't belong as members  29 of the house, so that is deleted.  The earlier copy  30 showed a name under Hank Vantunen, Skokumwasaas.  That  31 name has been deleted.  That's on page 1 as well.  32 Page 5.  The earlier copy did not show a date of  33 death of Susan Tsuhtlii, number 11, and I -- we have  34 inserted -- just a moment -- an approximate date of  35 death of 1927.  It doesn't show the clan of her  36 husband and that has now been inserted as Gilseyhu.  37 This is evidence which this witness has already given.  38 On Mary Louise Joseph Mooseskin, the mother of this  39 witness, it did not show -- it showed the date of  40 death as 1974 and that now is shown as -- that is  41 not -- I'm sorry, that is not shown on Exhibit 1.  42 The -- under Donald Jim, her husband, it shows the  43 name Kanoots and that was not shown on the earlier  44 copy.  45 On page 6 -- and by the way, I should note that it  46 appears that Exhibit 1 the pages some of them were  47 upside down, so I'm going to ask at the break we'll 11  1 take it apart and restaple it.  On page 6 Mark Halonen  2 on the bottom left-hand corner is deceased and that's  3 shown, as it wasn't in the earlier one.  4 A  Mark Halonen's father was died.  5 Q   Oh, Mark Halonen's father?  6 A   Yes.  Tap Halonen, he's the one that's dead.  Mark is  7 alive. Yeah.  8 Q   I'm sorry.  Thank you.  9 A   Yeah.  10 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  So that should be corrected on there and  11 that dot should be for Tap Halonen not Mark Halonen.  12 So with leave I would mark it accordingly on the  13 exhibit.  14 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Would you, please?  15 MR. GRANT:  16 Q   What I've done is I can't take the dot out.  I put a  17 dot for Tap Halonen and Mark Halonen I put beside it a  18 note "he is alive" on the exhibit.  19 Then under Dolores Bazil on the far right-hand  20 side, who's the daughter of this witness, there was a  21 triangle in the earlier copy for her son, but there  22 was no name there.  That name has been inserted and  23 that name is Travis.  24 On page 7, the next page, in the earlier copies --  25 okay.  Pat Joseph at the top did not show a date of  2 6 death and we have approximate date of death the  27 1950's.  On the very bottom right, Joseph Foster,  28 there was a slash above the triangle and that slash  29 now is in the triangle.  So that it's just to be  30 consistent in terms of the adoption situation.  31 Going to page 8, Karl Foster, again there's a  32 slash --  33 A   Excuse me, that Joe Foster, he's deceased too now.  34 Q   Yes.  And it's marked as deceased?  35 A   Oh, okay.  36 MR. GRANT:   Yes.  Joe Foster is deceased and it should be  37 marked as a dot on both the original and on this one  38 as he's deceased.  I think on the earlier copy there  39 was a mistake that the line on Eva Joseph, this is on  40 page 8, and Isadore Charlie was not drawn down to  41 their children.  That line has now been drawn in.  42 Karl Foster, the slash was above his name rather than  43 through the triangle, and he is a person who was  44 adopted.  Margaret Starr and Raymond Starr are on the  45 new list.  Their names were not on the earlier list,  46 and Margaret Starr is noted as adopted as are all her  47 children.  What you can see is that she was adopted in 12  1 and she's been adopted out.  There's a dotted line to  2 her name and then she's been adopted out.  Those are  3 the changes.  4 MR. MACKENZIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Grant.  Could I make  5 some brief comments about that, please?  6 MR. GRANT:  Feel free.  7 MR. MACKENZIE: Thank you.  I note that you've gone — you've  8 noted several changes to the genealogies.  As you know  9 there's a 14 day rule for the provision of genealogies  10 and these exhibits, and I'm not going to object.  I  11 haven't objected to the introduction of this exhibit,  12 but -- and I still don't know the -- I don't  13 understand the significance of these changes, but --  14 and I don't know whether they will be significant, but  15 I wish to reserve my rights to, or I want to be at  16 liberty to apply to adjourn, if necessary, if it  17 becomes necessary to, as a result of these changes  18 which you've made to the genealogy.  We have not had  19 time to review them before the examination.  2 0 MR. GRANT:  21 Q   Well, most of these -- there is two types of changes.  22 One is errors basically in the type of form that's  23 used in the genealogy, that is, slashes above the name  24 instead of in the name, putting children down in one  25 example which don't belong to the house which based on  26 the evidence of Alfred Joseph that's already been  27 heard it's clear, and the extensive commission  28 evidence, it's a matrolineal system.  That's one type.  29 The other type of change has been the addition of  30 certain dates or names to persons which would have  31 come out of this witness viva voce.  I would not have  32 amended it just for those because I don't believe it's  33 necessary as those came out from the witness herself  34 anyway, but since there were some form changes, that  35 is, just corrections of lines and things, I saw that  36 it was -- I thought that it would be of use to  37 everybody to have on the exhibit these other names,  38 this other data that the witness has already given  39 evidence of.  And as you can see the witness  40 interjected at one point, there was an error on one of  41 the corrections, so I guess what I'm saying is is that  42 I don't anticipate that there will be any need for you  43 to adjourn for that, but your point is recorded.  44 Now, I guess what I'm saying is that there is no  45 addition of people's names to this, that is, except  46 for the Margaret Starr situation, there's no addition  47 of names that you didn't already have, so it's in 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  13  terms of analysing who the people are you've pretty  well got all of that except, as I say, for one name.  I think I'm going to have to take this apart at  this point.  Now, just for the record I've just taken  apart the exhibit because some of the pages were  upside down, and nobody objects to that I think, and  I'm also taking it apart -- I think we can staple it  together afterwards -- but it may be easier for the  witness to see if it's spread out.  Now, I believe you've already answered this, but  you have reviewed this commission -- this genealogy  chart with myself; is that right?  You've gone through  it or a copy of it?  Yes.  And it accurately reflected the membership in your  house?  Yes.  We don't have enough room so I'm going to have to --  what I'm going to do is to move it over to pages 5 and  6 and 7.  Since this is on video I just want to be  sure I wasn't blocking the reporter.  This on page 6  there is the reference to Lucy Jim who married Frank  Bazil and then married Dan Verigin and that is  yourself there; is that right?  Yes.  Okay.  Immediately preceding page -- on page -- that's  on the left-hand side of page 6.  On page 5 is Mary  Louise Joseph Mooseskin and Donald Jim and those are  your parents, is that right?  Yes.  And right above them is Susan Tsuhtlii and Tsuhtlii  Gilseyhu and those are your mother's parents; is that  correct?  Yes.  Was your mother's -- was your mother's mother related  to Hazel Williams?  I understand that.  Yes.  Now, if we telescope pages 2 and 5 together and the  lines following each other, I'm referring to the top  line, it appears that Hazel Williams was your mother's  mother's sister; is that right?  I understood as they were cousins, but I didn't know  too much about that part.  Okay.  Let me -- was Hazel Williams in the House of  Wah tah kwets?  Yes.  Okay.  So when you say they were cousins, it may 1  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  14  have -- it may be that their own mothers, Hazel  Williams' mother and Susan Tsuhtlii's mother, were  sisters?  It might have been.  Yes.  Okay.  And was Hazel Williams -- do you remember  Hazel Williams?  No.  I heard about her.  Okay.  Did she ever come to visit at your father -- at  your family's place on Buck Flats?  Yes.  I was pretty young.  I remember her as telling  us the stories.  And was she old when you remember her?  Yes, very old.  Could she walk?  No.  They used to -- two people had to help her to get  up.  Okay.  Was she a small person?  She was a heavy set woman.  Okay.  Now, I'm -- just for the record 6, 7 and 8 on  the genealogy were not numbered so now that I've got  it apart I didn't want -- they're numbered, but on the  copy that's marked as an exhibit it was below the  photocopy.  Okay.  So I've just marked those pages.  Your mother had four brothers?  Yes.  And one was Round Lake Tommy?  Yes.  One was Louie Tommy?  Yes.  And who were the other two?  Jack Joseph.  Uh-huh.  Pat, Pat Joseph.  And Jack Joseph was the person whose daughter died at  Le Jac?  Yes, that was Jack's daughter.  There were five  brothers.  You got four in there.  There were five brothers?  Yes.  Okay.  Who was the other one?  That's George Joseph, and he's not on there.  Okay.  Just a moment.  You missed that.  Yes, George Joseph is -- he's on page 8 actually?  Yes.  Sorry. And your mother had sisters; is that right?  One I remember.  That's all. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  46  47  A  15  And was that Eva Joseph?  Yes.  Now, the children of your mother's sister as well as  your mother's own children would be members of the  House of Wah tah kwets?  Yes.  Now, do you know who held the name Wah tah kwets  before John Namox?  My uncle Louie Tommy.  Okay.  And before Louie -- your uncle, Louie Tommy?  Another uncle, Round Lake Tommy.  Okay.  Now, did Louie Tommy marry Angeline Tommy?  Yes.  And Louie died about 1964?  About then.  Yes.  And -- well, the genealogy indicates he died on  January 23rd, 1964; would you agree with that?  About that time.  Yes.  And Round -- I'm sorry, Round Lake Tommy held the name  before Louie Tommy?  Yes.  And he died about 1960?  No, earlier than that I think about 50's I think.  In the 1950's.  Okay.  And Round Lake Tommy was  married to Sarah Joseph?  Yes.  And also he had a wife who died named Annie?  Yes.  Okay.  Do you remember Sarah Joseph?  Sarah, yes, I did.  But you don't remember Annie?  No.  Okay.  Do you remember Louie Tommy's wife Angeline?  Yes.  Now, do you know who held the name Round Lake Tommy  -- Wah tah kwets before Round Lake Tommy?  No, it's too far back.  I don't remember.  Okay.  When you were a child who was Wah tah kwets?  I don't remember.  Okay.  Because I know what Round Lake Tommy was because I  remember.  Now, your brother -- I'm sorry, you have -- in looking  at this genealogy you've reviewed all of your own  children and their children and this genealogy shows  them correctly?  Yes. 16  1 Q And your oldest is Violet and your youngest is Dolores  2 Bazil?  3 A Right.  4 Q Do you know who held the name Legiboo before Peter  5 Jim?  6 A My Uncle Pat Joseph.  7 Q Okay.  And do you remember when your Uncle Pat died  8 approximately?  9 A Yes, but I can't remember what year.  It's around '62,  10 somewhere in '60.  11 Q Now, your Aunt Eva had a number of children and one of  12 them was Irene Charlie; is that right?  13 A Yes.  14 Q Now -- and Irene Charlie is now deceased?  15 A All of them deceased.  Yes.  16 Q Now, did Irene Charlie adopt Margaret Starr?  17 A Yes.  18 Q Okay.  And does Margaret Starr now live in Kispiox?  19 A Yes.  20 Q And has she been adopted among the Gitksan?  21 A Yes, among the Indian way in the clan they adopted.  22 Q Okay.  And so her children are adopted among the  23 Gitksan?  24 A Yes.  25 Q If she attends the feast in Moricetown among the  26 Wet'suwet'en does she still -- is she still considered  27 a member of the House of Wah tah kwets in Moricetown?  28 A Yes, in Moricetown they are.  29 Q And so are her children?  30 A Yes.  31 Q So she has what when I say dual citizenship she's  32 Gitksan and she's Wet'suwet'en?  33 A Yeah.  Uh-huh.  34 MR. GRANT:   Is there a stapler here?  35 MS. KOENIGSBERG: I don't think so.  36 MR. MACKENZIE: I've got one next door.  37 MR. GRANT:  38 Q Okay.  When your father died where did your mother  39 live after his death?  40 A She lived in Moricetown.  41 Q Okay.  Now, did your uncles continue to use the  42 territories of Wah tah kwets?  43 A Yes.  44 Q Who used those territories and which ones -- which  45 territories did they use?  46 A There's one in McDonnell Lake.  I forgot the Indian  4 7 name. 17  1 Q   That's all right?  2 A   I guess it's written there.  Jack Joseph held that,  3 that territory.  4 Q   Okay.  5 A  And Wah tah kwets the one that used the one in Quick.  6 It's just above Telkwa.  7 Q   T-e-1-k-w-a.  McDonell, M-c-D-o-n-n-e-1-1.  Okay.  8 That's two of the territories.  Is there another one?  9 A   There's another one in Houston area.  10 Q   Uh-huh.  11 A   That was belonged to my other uncle.  12 Q   Which uncle?  13 A  Ah k'ot.  14 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  15 MS. KOENIGSBERG: What number's that?  16 MR. GRANT:  17 Q   Can you give a spelling for that, please?  18 A  Actually my aunt held that name at the time I  19 remember.  My Aunt Eva held that name at that time.  20 Q   Okay.  21 A   Because I remember, but before that it was one of the  22 uncle.  23 Q   Okay.  That was your mother's sister?  24 A   Yes.  25 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Is that A-g-h k-'-o-t on the genealogy?  26 MR. GRANT:  Go off the record for a moment, please, for the  27 spelling of this word.  28  29 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  30  31 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  We'll go back on the record.  32 MR. MACKENZIE: Excuse me, Mr. Grant, before you start, Mrs.  33 Bazil referred to three territories, one was the Quick  34 territory next to Telkwa, and when we were off the  35 record she indicated who held that territory, but my  36 note shows she didn't indicate that on the record.  37 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  I was going to come back to all of that.  38 MR. MACKENZIE: Very good.  3 9 MR. GRANT:  40 Q   Just to be clear that we have all this on the record,  41 my understanding is that when your mother moved back  42 to Moricetown, members of the House of Wah tah kwets  43 still used the house territories, that's right?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And you've referred to one of the territories at  46 McDonnell Lake which was used by your Uncle Jack  47 Joseph? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6 MR.  macke:  7  8 MR.  GRANT  9  Q  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35 MR.  GRANT  36  37 MR.  MITCH  3 8 MR.  GRANT  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  18  Yes.  Okay.  Did Pat Joseph also use that?  Yes.  And that was your other uncle?  Yes.  JZIE: Excuse me, Mr. Grant, I'm going to have to ask  you not to lead on territorial evidence.  Okay.  There was another territory near Houston?  Yes, right in Houston.  That's where town is right  now.  Right.  And which of your relatives used that  territory when your mother moved back to Moricetown?  Well, I don't think anybody did after that.  Okay.  Before your mom moved back to Moricetown, which  of your relatives used that territory?  As far as I remembered there was nobody there.  I  guess just anybody did.  Okay.  There was a territory at Quick, and which of  your relatives used that territory?  Yes.  Which one?  That's Wah tah kwets.  That's Wah tah kwets' territory?  Yeah.  Yeah.  And was that -- did one of your uncles actually use  that territory then?  Yes.  And which uncle?  Louie Tommy.  Okay.  Your uncle Jack Joseph, what was his Indian  name?  His Indian name was given him by Gitksan, Gitksan  people.  His name was Wis k'ak.  :   From the genealogy is that W-i-s-k-'-a-k' that's on  page   8;   is   that   right?  ilLL:   Yes.  And did he live in the Gitksan territory for a while?  He was married in Gitksan.  Yes?  At Skeena Crossing.  When his wife died he moved back  up here.  Okay.  Did he keep that Gitksan name after he moved  back?  Yeah, he did use it here, but when he died it didn't  continue on.  Nobody took it. 1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  19  Okay. And when you say he moved back here, you're  referring to the fact that he moved back here from  Kitsegukla to Moricetown?  Yes.  Okay.  I'd like to continue with some of your own  personal background, and you married in 1936?  Yes.  And after you married did you visit Moricetown?  Yes.  And did you fish at Moricetown after you married?  Yes.  Okay.  And did you go to feasts in Moricetown after  you married?  Yes.  When do the Wet'suwet'en feast?  What months of the  year?  They usually have them during summer.  Okay.  And why don't they have them in the winter  months at Moricetown?  Winter months everybody's out in the territories  trapping, hunting.  They stay there until spring.  Now, after you married did you move somewhere with  your husband?  My husband worked different places and we were in  Moricetown for a while, then summertime he goes  fishing in the cannery, Prince Rupert, and I go with  him.  And was that in the first year after you were married?  Yes.  Okay.  And did your husband and you live at a place  called Beamont?  Beamont, yes.  Beamont?  Yes.  That's B-e-a-m-o-n-t?  Yes.  He was working in a pole comp.  Is that located near Mosquito Flats?  Yes.  And that's between Moricetown and Hazelton now?  Yes.  Did your husband -- was your husband Wet'suwet'en?  Yes.  Mr. Bazil?  Yes.  And of course that was your husband who you married in  1936 was Frank Bazil?  Yes. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  20  And what house did he belong to?  Tsayu.  That's the Tsayu clan?  Yes.  And was there a territory which he was entitled to use  as a member of the Tsayu?  They have, yes.  And where -- do you recall where that was?  I'm sorry, I can't remember that name.  Okay.  Maybe Georgie could help.  No, it's okay.  Don't worry.  T-s-a-y-u is Tsayu.  Now, your father was Jim Mooseskin Donald?  Yes.  And where was he born?  Moricetown.  And what house did he belong to?  Madeek's house.  Okay.  Was he related to -- you know Peter Alfred --  Yes.  -- Madeline Alfred's husband who just died recently?  Yes.  And was your father related to Peter Alfred?  His nephew.  Peter Alfred was your father's nephew?  Yes.  And what is the -- who's the head chief of the house  to which your father belonged?  What was the head  chief's name?  Madeek is one.  Now I already forgot the names.  There's two more.  Okay.  Was your father the -- I'm sorry, was Madeek --  is he the head chief of that house?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, do you remember the name your father had?  Kanoots.  I remember that.  Was that a chief's name in that house?  Yes.  And is that the name that Peter Alfred held?  Yes.  What clan is Madeek's?  Gitdumden.  When your father died who took the name Kanoots?  Sarah Holland.  And when Sarah Holland died who took the name Kanoots?  I think that's when Peter Alfred took the name.  Is there a person in line for this name now? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  21  Yes.  And who's that?  Freddie Joseph.  Okay.  And he's a Wet'suwet'en who lives in  Moricetown?  Yes.  Yes.  Okay.  Who's the earliest person that you can recall  who held the name Madeek?  Bill Nye that's who held, as I remember.  Okay.  Do you know who held the name before Bill Nye?  That part I just can't remember.  Okay.  You told me at an earlier occasion who held  that name?  I think I told you.  Yeah.  Did -- was that person Issiak Alexander or Azak  Alexander?  Azak.  Azak.  And did he ever hold the name Madeek?  I'm not quite sure.  He must have because he's the one  that had the territory before my father.  And when your father was Kanoots, who was Madeek?  That one that's Bill Nye.  Okay.  And who took the name Madeek after Bill Nye?  George.  George Naziel.  Okay.  Now, Madeek is 15, Kanoots is 13, and she  referred to Jack Joseph and she referred -- I think  she referred to G'itnee.  If she did it's 19.  Bill Nye is spelled B-i-1-1, one word, N-y-e, a  second word.  I believe it's also spelled in other  commission evidence as B-e-1-n-a-i, and I'm referring  here to a document that's not an exhibit.  It's dated  November 17th, '87 the genealogy of Madeek.  Issiak  Alexander is spelled on page 3 as I-s-s-i-a-k, and  Alexander as it sounds.  Do you know your father's father's name?  Johnny Mooseskin Donald.  Okay.  Did he hold a chief's name?  Yes.  What was it?  Kweese.  Eighteen.  Is that name now held by Florence Hall?  Yes.  Okay.  You said his name was Johnny Mooseskin Donald.  Do you know how he happened to get the name  "Mooseskin"?  Yeah, that mooseskin is -- that his nickname.  When he  took the name Kweese I guess at those days there was 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  22  no moose in this country.  It was -- they sell the  mooseskin in the Hudson Bay store in Hazelton and my  grandfather used to go down.  Every shipment came in  he bought them all for his feast, and the people from  the store named him Mooseskin as his nickname, but  he -- he liked it and he used it.  And also my mother  whose last name was Mooseskin too all the way.  So his name became Johnny Mooseskin and that was the  last name your mother ended -- had?  Yes.  Do you ever remember when you were small using your  grandfather's smoke house?  Yes.  Where was his smoke house?  On the -- on the Moricetown on the other side of the  river.  You can see the big fields still there yet.  He had a big smoke house there and also he had a big  house and also he had two barns.  They had all kinds  of animals there just like a farm and that's where we  used to stay when we visit in the summertime.  When you say "the other side" you mean --  The other side of the bridge.  The side opposite the highway?  Yeah, the other side of the bridge.  On the Bulkley River?  On the Bulkley River.  The reporter -- when we both speak it's hard for her  to take it.  Your family used your uncle or your grandfather's  smoke house?  Yes.  Did any other families use a smoke house?  Yes, there was his -- my grandfather's niece and her  family, and also his nephew and his family, and my mom  and my dad was one side and herself, themselves.  That's four families in the big smoke house to smoke  fish.  You say his niece's family.  Who was that?  That was Emily and little Dennis.  That's Florence's  mother.  Florence Hall's mother?  Yes.  And -- Okay. And then there was yourself and your  family, your parents?  Yes.  And there was your grandfather's wife and himself?  Yes. 23  1 Q And I'm sorry, I missed the fourth one?  Who was that?  2 A August Pete.  3 Q Okay.  And how was he related to Johnny Mooseskin?  4 A That's his nephew.  5 Q And August Pete had a family too?  6 A Yes.  7 Q Is there a name for Madeek's house?  8 A Cassyex I think.  9 Q Fourteen.  Your father had one brother and two  10 sisters?  11 A Yes.  12 Q And his two sisters were Hazel Mooseskin and Christine  13 Mooseskin?  14 A Yes.  15 Q And his brother was Mathias Mooseskin?  16 A Yes.  17 Q And Mathias held the name Sowiis?  18 A Yes.  19 Q What was the name of your father's parents -- your  20 father's parents?  21 A You mean the Indian name?  22 Q Yes.  23 A Well, I remember Kweese. That's what I remember.  24 Q I'm sorry, you already described your grandmother who  25 was Mooseskin Johnny.  What was his wife's name?  26 A Uh-huh.  Theresa.  27 Q Okay.  And did she hold an Indian name?  28 A Yes.  29 Q What was that?  30 A I can't remember the name either.  31 Q Okay.  Have you told me that name --  32 A Yes, I did.  33 Q -- in the past?  Do you remember the name Wisalop?  34 A Wisalop must be the one.  Yeah.  35 MR. GRANT:   That's W-i-s-a-1-o-p.  I put it down as 42.  36 MR. MITCHELL:  Forty-five.  37 MR. GRANT:  38 Q And was Theresa, your grandmother, also known as  39 Deliiz?  40 A Yes.  41 Q That's number 36.  Do you remember your father's  42 mother?  Do you remember Deliiz?  43 A Yes.  44 Q Was she involved in your training?  45 A Yes.  She died when I had my second child.  46 Q What were some of the things that she taught you?  47 A Well, a lot of things that -- how to live.  All the 1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  24  native people how to treat each others, respect, and  feasts, territories, and how to prepare food and meat  or fish, whatever you get.  There's a lot of other  things she taught me.  And she was from the House of Madeek?  Yes.  Did you ever see her when she -- were you with her  only when you were in Moricetown or was she at Buck  Flats too?  No, she never did.  She was pretty old to go up there.  Okay.  We visit with them in summertime.  Do you remember the feasts when your father died?  Yes.  When your mother died?  Yes.  And when your husband Frank died?  Yes.  And can you describe, and I'm going to just ask you to  describe generally without all of the detail, what  happened when those three persons in your family died,  what did the clan who was putting on the feast do?  Well, there's a funeral feast first after the death.  The person dies, it's the father's side they pay for  the expense, like funeral expense.  They hire them,  the certain people who they have a small smoke feast  at night when somebody dies and they name the people  that's going to be hired to bury this person.  And  then after the funeral that's when the clan gets  together and put up a feast and that's when they give  out soups and bread and things like that.  Everybody  finish eating, then the clan collects.  Everybody put  their share in and that's the money that goes back for  the burial, the people that hired to do the first and  then they pay them back at that feast.  Who decides on who would take the name?  The people from the feast house, all the chiefs.  Okay.  Before the feast, does the clan who hosts the  feast, do they have any -- do they do anything before  the feast?  Yes.  They get together in one house and they discuss  what they going to do.  Uh-huh.  Now, is it important for the other clans to  be present at the feast?  Yes.  Have -- is there -- is there any way of sorting out a  difficulty if there's a disagreement as to who the 1  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  25  successor should be?  Yes.  If it happens they leave it to the floor and the  chiefs they the one that decide and they discuss it  right in the feast house and this is the way it goes.  Do the chiefs discuss it outside of the feast house as  well?  Yes.  If it's a very bad problem they will.  Okay.  Does this still go on today?  Yes.  Are you involved in any discussions about the  succession in Wah tah kwets' house?  Yes, lots of times.  Okay.  And what is your role as one of the chiefs in  that house?  What do you do?  Well, I help them discuss if there's problems.  And who would you discuss it with in your house?  Well, the biggest ones then in the house.  My -- John  Namox, Pat Namox, my brother.  Uh-huh.  Exhibit 1 shows a large number of people in  Wah tah kwets' house.  Do you observe how the younger  people in the house behave?  Yes.  And why is that?  What do you mean by "behave"?  Well, how they conduct themselves just normally?  I  mean do you -- is it of interest to you as a chief in  the house how those young people conduct themselves?  Yes.  Well, there's not much training nowadays I guess  in -- in the younger generation.  Their — they don't  listen some of them and they do things the opposite  and then we get together and we try to speak with them  what is right and what is wrong.  I'm sorry, earlier I had asked you who had held the  name Wah tah kwets and you indicated Louie Tommy and  Round Lake Tommy had held the name.  Do you know who  held the name Wah tah kwets before Round Lake Tommy?  No, I didn't.  Okay.  Did your mother tell you who held the name  before?  She probably did, but I can't remember.  She said it  was her uncle, but I can't remember the uncle's name.  Is there a person from Babine who also holds the name  Wah tah kwets today?  Yes.  And who's that?  Frank Patrick.  Okay.  And he's shown on Exhibit 1 your genealogy 26  1 chart of your house?  2 A Yes.  3 Q So is he -- are the Babine people related to the  4 Wet'suwet'en?  5 A Yes, they are.  6 Q Okay.  Now, you were talking about when you were at  7 Moricetown.  Was there more than one feast hall at  8 Moricetown when you were younger?  9 A No.  I remember there was three.  10 Q Uh-huh.  And who owned those halls?  11 A Well, each clan, three clans, I think they had a hall  12 there.  13 Q Uh-huh.  14 A One hall was Gitdumden hall, which was Tyee Lake  15 David, and the other one was Lak sa mushu hall was  16 Peter Michell.  17 Q Okay.  18 A And Laksilyu hall was held by Hagwilnegh.  That's  19 Arthur Michell.  20 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  Just one moment.  21 MR. MITCHELL: Seventeen, 22, 3, and 7.  22 MR. GRANT:  23 Q That's the names that she's given.  Okay.  24 Did Tyee Lake David hold the name Gyologyet?  25 A Yes.  26 Q And that's number 20.  Is that presently held by  27 Gordon Hall?  28 A Yes.  29 Q Did Tyee Lake David later take the name Woos?  30 A I think he did.  I can't remember very well that.  31 Q But he would be in the same house as Woos?  32 A Yes.  The same, yes.  33 Q And that's number 21.  Did Peter Michell hold the name  34 Gus ded'a lak'?  35 A Gus ded'a lak'.  36 Q Lak'?  37 A Yeah.  38 Q Number 23.  That name is now held by Augustine Morris'  39 A Yes.  40 Q And Peter Michell was Margaret William's father?  41 A Yes.  42 Q Were these -- how big were these three halls in  43 Moricetown?  44 A They were pretty big.  They's about the size of what  45 they have in a community hall in Moricetown now.  46 Q Okay.  47 A They were all big ones.  Hagwilnegh's hall was built 27  1 by logs and that was big too.  2 Q   When did -- how old were you when you were given your  3 name Guhe'?  4 A   I must be around 14.  5 Q   Okay.  And was that -- was that at a feast?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And was that held in one of these halls?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   Whose hall or which clan?  10 A  At Hagwilnegh's, Hagwilnegh's hall.  11 Q   And was it held in that hall because Hagwilnegh is the  12 same clan as you?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Can you tell us what happened at that feast that you  15 remember?  16 A  Well, they -- my grandmother on my dad's side the  17 family, two of my aunts and my uncle, my dad's uncle  18 that Madeek, he's the one made the song for me, and my  19 aunt that walked in with me and show me how to act out  20 the name a gambler, it's -- they teach me before that  21 and I acted out as they call it Guhe' Kun gax.  That's  22 what it's called.  2 3 Q   Just a moment.  24 A  And I walked into the hall and then I danced there and  25 then they talked about what name I was taking and then  26 they paid out the people that work with me and -- in  27 the feast house and then I was seated after that.  28 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  Kun gax is number 40, but it should be K-u-n  29 g-a-x.  30 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Excuse me, there was a word just before Kun gax  31 or Kun gax.  I believe her words were "I acted  32 out..." --  33 THE WITNESS:   I acted out the name.  I have to act it out as I  34 come in.  35 MR. GRANT:  I think she repeated her name.  36 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Guhe'.  37 MR. GRANT:  38 Q   You said two of your aunts helped you.  Who were they?  39 Which aunts?  40 A   That's Marian Naziel and her daughter Christine  41 Joseph.  42 Q   And they are from your father's --  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   — house?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And did Marian Michell sing for you at that feast?  47 A   She sang with her brother Madeek.  He's the one that 1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  made the song.  Okay.  And that was Bill Nye?  Yes.  Was mooseskin used at that feast?  Yes, there was.  And who provided the mooseskin?  My mother and my father.  At that time was that mooseskin from --  My father's territory.  And is that the territory at Buck Flats?  Yes.  Was money also used at that feast?  Yes.  And who provided the money?  It was the same, my father.  Uh-huh.  And how did he earn that money?  By trapping.  Was that on the territory?  Yes.  Was there any reference made to his territory at your  feast?  Yes.  Okay.  Can you just describe what -- why reference was  made to it and what was said?  Well, they do that all the time if -- which territory  the person holds the territory, whatever he get during  the winter, meat also, it's dried up for the feast.  If they kill animals it's all prepared for that feast,  and so are the skins.  And the fur that they trap,  beavers, minks, martens, all sold and that's the money  they use and they all announce it in the feast house  where the money came from, how he earned it, how he  got it, so the people sitting down knows where the  money came from, where everything came from.  Do you remember when you were young your parents  coming home from feasts?  Yes.  And do you remember what they brought home from  feasts?  Yes.  They usually -- before I got a name we never go  to the feast house, we too young, and they don't allow  children that's got no name.  They don't go to the  hall, just the parents, and they make us -- they have  a baby-sitter for us, the older one look after us.  We  all stay in one house.  We don't even go outside, and  they tell us not to go outside until they come back.  And then they bring stuff home, a lot of goodies for 29  us .  Uh-huh.  Stuff that they receive in the feast house they pass  around to us.  Did they bring home any furs?  Yes.  They bring home skins, furs, money, materials,  blankets, towels.  When your father died was there anyone else to take  over the territory --  Yes.  — at Buck Flats?  Peter Alfred was.  And that was Kanoots?  Yes.  Did your father train Peter Alfred before he died?  Yes.  Did he take him on the territory?  Yes.  And is it the same today that there is a person to  take over after Peter Alfred?  Yes.  Did George Naziel use your father's territory?  Yes.  24 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  Okay.  I'll go off the record.  25  2 6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCHEON RECESS)  27  2 8 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  29  3 0 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  We can go on the record now.  Mrs. Bazil, we took the lunch break, and you're  still under oath, you understand that?  Yes.  Now, this morning I referred to a person named Issiak  who was in the House of Madeek.  You recall me  mentioning that name?  Well, that part I think I said it earlier that I  didn't know exactly what name he held.  Okay.  Was he in the House of Madeek?  Yes.  Okay.  And did he use the territory that your father  used?  Yeah, before my father.  Yes.  Now, just a moment.  I'm showing you a document  entitled "Anaskaski Madeek - Gitumden" dated November  17th, 1987, which appears to be a genealogy chart.  1  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  A  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47 30  1 Have you seen a copy of that document before now?  2 A   Yes, I did.  3 Q   And have you reviewed that document with me?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And does it show the members of the House of Madeek?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And those are members that you know and some that were  8 before your time?  9 A   Yes.  10 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  I'd ask that that be marked as Exhibit 2,  11 please?  12 MR. MACKENZIE: Okay.  Mr. Grant, as we've discussed we are now  13 going to object to that being marked as a full trial  14 exhibit now.  We didn't receive a copy of that, as is  15 required by the Chief Justice's order, and so not  16 having had notice of course we can't -- we haven't had  17 a chance to prepare for cross-examination.  Now, as  18 we've also discussed, we have no serious objection now  19 to having it marked for identification.  20 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Can you mark that as Exhibit A for  21 identification, please?  22  23 (EXHIBIT A FOR IDENTIFICATION: Genealogy chart  24 entitled "Anaskaski Madeek-Gitumden")  25  26 MR. GRANT:  Thank you.  I wish to just for the record set out  27 that I take the position that as this is not the  28 genealogy of the house of this witness we're not  29 obligated to provide you with notice.  As I referred  30 in the correspondence when it was couriered to you  31 last week, and I understand for some reason you didn't  32 get that couriered last week, but that I was  33 forwarding it to you as a convenience because this  34 witness was going to be referring to her father.  35 There will be other witnesses at trial who will  36 probably refer to this genealogy as well, or at least  37 even if they don't refer to it that you will be able  38 to cross-examine them, and they will be witnesses  39 which will be giving evidence in January so you will  40 have well over 14 days.  So the position I took with  41 respect to this genealogy is that it was not required  42 to be delivered to you.  In any event, it was not  43 possible to be delivered to you.  On November 17th it  44 was complete and I couriered it out to you the  45 following day.  As soon as possible I couriered it to  4 6 you.  47 MS. KOENIGSBERG: If I may just interject, Mr. Grant, and ask if 31  1 this genealogy of Madeek being tendered through this  2 witness means that you intend for this witness to give  3 evidence with regard to the House of Madeek as opposed  4 just to the territory of Madeek as outlined in the  5 affidavit which you had submitted to us previously?  6 MR. GRANT:  Well, this witness has already -- I don't know what  7 you mean by evidence with respect to the House of  8 Madeek.  9 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Evidence generally as to the House of Madeek.  GRANT:  Well, this witness has given evidence already about  who members are of the House of Madeek, who the  earlier Madeeks were, who her father was and his  relations.  This is back -- in my view, background  evidence for other evidence that she will give.  If  you're asking me whether this witness is going to go  through this name by name, no, I have no intention of  doing that, but I do wish to refer to some parts of  it.  And for the record Exhibit A is the same as the  document delivered to you except it does not have the  reference to "Draft" which was stamped on that copy.  It doesn't have that stamp on it.  MACKENZIE: Before you go on, if I may -- have you finished  your comment, Mr. Grant?  GRANT:  Sure.  MACKENZIE: Before you go on, I wonder if I could also put  our position in response to what you've just said.  In  our view, the Chief Justice's order settled on  November 20 provides that the plaintiffs deliver to  the defendants the documents the plaintiffs intend to  rely on in the direct examination.  And it is my  understanding that you intended to rely upon the  Madeek genealogy, although granted, as you say, it's  not a genealogy of the Wah tah kwets, as required by  the 14 day rule.  So my position in summary is that in  answer to your comment that if this does not fall  within the term genealogy then it would fall within  the term other documents upon which you wish to use in  your direct examination.  GRANT:  Okay.  And just to be -- okay.  Just to be clear is  that there was no way 14 days before today that I  could know whether I was relying on this document  because it did not exist.  MACKENZIE: Yes.  I don't mean to criticize you for that at  all. I know you're --  GRANT:  As soon as I knew it existed I brought it to your  attention.  MACKENZIE: Thank you very much.  I see that at this point.  10  MR  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  MR  23  24  MR  25  MR  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  MR  40  41  42  43  MR  44  45  MR  46  47  MR 32  1 MR. GRANT:  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Okay.  Now, on this genealogy -- I'll just put that  exhibit in front of you, Exhibit A.  Just to give us a  sense of who these people are, maybe Mr. Holland can  assist you.  Referring to page 6, the last page of the  genealogy.  Now, Mr. Holland, rather than me leaning  over, maybe you can point out some of these names, if  my friends don't object, when I refer to them?  On page 6 is Donald Jim Mooseskin.  Is that --  that is the person you refer to as your father?  Yes.  And of course your mother Mary Joseph Mooseskin is  referred to there?  Yes.  And above that is Deliiz, Theresa Wisalop, and  Mooseskin Johnny Kweese and that was your  grandparents, your father's parents; is that right?  Yes.  Now, your grandmother Deliiz had a sister who was  married to Big Dan George; is that right?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, Deliiz's mother, in the upper left-hand  side, you do not recall her name?  I don't remember them.  Okay.  Was she the sister of Sophie Naziel, referring  over to page 5?  I heard about this one, the one you referred to.  Was she your grandmother -- do you know if she was  your grandmother Deliiz's aunt?  Niece I think they were.  My grandmother was older  than this Sophie.  Oh, okay.  Now, turning to page 3, two pages over,  there's a reference to "Issiak Alexander", and under  that "Azak Coo".  This is at the top.  This Issiak  Alexander, is this the Azak that you were referring  to?  Yes.  And is Azak Coo, that's A-z-a-k, one word, C-o-o, the  second word?  Yes.  Is that how you knew him by that name?  I heard the name.  I didn't meet him.  I heard his  name.  That's how they call him Azak Coo.  That's all  I know him by.  And what does that mean?  It's a -- it's a big Isaac.  That's what it is in  English. 33  1 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  2 MR. MACKENZIE: Mr. Grant, may I interrupt to ask when the  3 witness is talking about members of the House of  4 Madeek she has said a couple of times "I heard his  5 name.".  And it would be helpful if she could indicate  6 the source of her information.  7 MR. GRANT:  8 Q   Sure.  Yes.  If I overlook any point feel free to  9 interject.  Yes.  10 Who -- you said that you heard of Azak Coo.  Who  11 told you about Azak Coo?  12 A  Well, my -- he was -- hold the -- hold the territory  13 before my father.  14 Q   Yes?  15 A  And my father even showed us where they used to live.  16 Q   Where who used to --  17 A  Where Azak Coo used to live, and that's how he mention  18 his name.  "This is my uncle, Azak Coo used to live  19 like this."  And it wasn't a house, it was -- it's  20 just like a tee pee, but is made out of branches.  21 Everything was all -- sticks was still standing under  22 the tree, big trees, and this is where they used to  23 live before he -- my father -- well, he said he showed  24 him the area when my father was younger before he took  25 over.  He was with him.  And that's where they used to  26 live.  27 Q   Okay.  28 A   That's how he mentioned his name was always Azak Coo.  29 That's how I remembered him.  30 Q   And you saw part of the structure where Azak Coo  31 lived --  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   -- yourself?  34 A   Yes, I did.  35 Q   And you remember it.  And was this on the Ts'un c'os  36 'aay territory?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Now, going to page 2 of Exhibit A, was Bill Nye a  39 brother of Azak Coo?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Now, just going back to Azak Coo, do you know what the  42 name of his wife was?  43 A   No.  44 Q   Okay.  And did Bill Nye and Azak -- and Azak Coo have  45 a sister named Marian?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And how was Marian -- how was George Naziel related to 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  34  Marian?  It's his mother.  Okay.  And Marian was married to someone whose name  was Naziel?  Yes.  Okay.  Referring to page 1 of the genealogy, the --  the top line on page 1 that George Naziel, who married  Jenny Bazil, that is the George Naziel who was Madeek  until his death recently?  Yes.  And he had -- do you know the names of his brothers,  George Naziel's?  One I remember it's Dick Naziel.  The rest are before  my time.  Did he have any sisters?  I remember one of them, Christine Joseph.  Okay.  She married Pat Joseph?  Yes.  Okay.  And Christine Joseph had a number of children?  Yes.  Okay.  Do you remember Sarah Joseph?  Yes.  Is that one of her children?  Yes.  And Hazel Mitchell?  Yes.  Joseph Joseph?  Yes.  Flossie Joseph?  Yes.  Matilda Joseph?  Yes.  Mary Joseph?  Yes.  And Alice Joseph?  Yes.  And under Wet'suwet'en law would the children of her  daughters, Christine Naziel's daughters, would their  children be members of the House of Madeek?  Yes.  Now, you've told us earlier that you were born at  Houston.  When you were small, did the Wet'suwet'en  live at Houston?  Yes, quite a few of them.  Do you recall some of the people that lived at  Houston, their names?  Well, there was Jim Holland, Enoch Seymour, Sats'aan, 1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  3 6 MR.  GRANT  37  38  39  40  41  42 MR.  macke:  43  44  45  4 6 MR.  GRANT  47  35  his name was Houston Tommy, Round Lake Tommy, my  father, mother.  Uh-huh.  And there's others.  I can't recall the name.  Okay.  Did Alec Tiljoe live there?  Yes.  Did Alfred Namox live there?  Yes.  Now, did these people live at Houston all year 'round  in the town?  No.  Houston is just like a stopping place for them  when they go and are trapping.  Some of them had  houses there.  When they going out trapping, they get  prepared there to go out trapping and when they come  back from trapping they -- they get their rest there,  and it's just like a home to them.  Everything was  there for them.  When you were small, did your family only have a house  at Houston?  Well, there's house in Houston and I remember there's  a house at Buck Flat too.  Okay.  Now, when you refer to Buck Flats, is there a  Wet'suwet'en name for that place?  Yes.  What's it called in Wet'suwet'en?  Ts'un c'os 'aay.  Now, I wish to show you a photograph.  Do you  recognize that place in that photograph?  Yes, I do.  Can you tell us what it is?  It's the house I grew up.  And where was it?  It's in my father's territory.  Okay.  And who built that house?  My father did.  :   Okay.  Can we mark that as Exhibit 2?  Maybe we  should, with the leave of my friends, I'd like to mark  it as Exhibit 3 just so that we don't -- in case the  other one's marked as an exhibit proper.  So mark it  as Exhibit 3, please?  Now, I'm not effectively  reserving that place.  JZIE: I'm not objecting to this photograph being  marked, but I note that we haven't received a copy and  I understand you delivered a copy, you arranged for a  copy to be delivered to us last week.  :  I couriered a copy to your office.  Yes.  It was not  delivered to your office today? 36  1 MR. MACKENZIE: No, I checked.  It hasn't arrived yet, but it may  2 arrive.  3 MR. GRANT:  Maybe the mail's better than couriers.  Okay.  Mark  4 that as Exhibit 3, please?  5  6 (EXHIBIT 3: Photograph showing L. Bazil's father's  7 house)  Now, there's -- in Exhibit 3 there are two buildings,  one where you see the roof quite clearly on the left,  and then one to the right.  Can you tell us which one  was the house that was your father's house?  It's the front one on my left-hand side with the pipe.  Okay.  That's the one.  Now, what was that building to the left where you see  the side of the roof?  My father had two horse at all times.  It's a barn for  the horse.  Okay.  And the hay shed on top.  :   Okay.  JZIE:  Now, Mr. Grant, you're referring to the barn in  the background at the right?  3S:    My left.  This is the — I said right.  This is  the left-hand on my side.  Just point to the house?  This is the house.  And point to the barn?  This is the barn.  So the one that you see in the background on the  right-hand side, the roof sort of at an angle, is the  barn.  Now, did your father have another house there  before that house?  Yeah, it's one smaller than that one.  It's behind  that big house where you're looking at.  You can't see it in this picture?  It was still there at the time, but it's hidden by the  front one.  Okay.  How old -- did you travel out onto your  father's territory from the time that you were very  young?  Yes.  Okay.  When's the first trip that you remember, that  9  MR.  GRANT  10  Q  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  MR.  GRANT  24  MR.  macke:  25  26  THE  WITNE  27  28  MR.  GRANT  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Q 1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  38  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  37  is, when can you remember going on your father's  territory?  How old were you then?  I might be about ten.  Okay.  Well, earlier than that I remember all this area close  to the house, but when he start checking his traps to  these other cabins I must be -- I was about ten.  Okay.  But you remember going to Buck Flats before  then?  Oh, yes.  Yes.  Before that, yeah.  As far as you know did your family go there every year  even from the time you were born?  Before I was born.  Yes.  What time of year would you leave Houston to go out to  the territory?  Around August.  And what did you -- what did your father or your  family do when you went out there in August?  That's when he put up hay for the horse for the  winter.  Okay.  How did you travel to the territory?  What  route did you follow?  The highway.  It's still there.  Was it a highway then?  There was a -- not very much, not like the one today,  but it was -- first was trail and then after that was  wagon road.  Yeah.  So the trail that was used when you were young  followed the same route as the present road from  Houston to Buck Flats, is that --  Not the wagon road.  The trail was shorter.  Uh-huh.  And on top of the hill going to Houston —  Uh-huh.  -- that's foot trail.  That's shorter.  If anybody on  foot that's what they use, but wagon it's around.  It  starts from the bottom of the -- about two miles down  from Houston.  That's where the turn-off is.  Uh-huh.  That's a wagon --  Uh-huh.  That's where it starts from.  Right.  But walking is mostly by the river.  Okay.  Who did you go out on the territory with when  you were young?  My father. 1  Q  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  Okay.  I -- I -- my question isn't that clear, Mrs.  Bazil.  When you travelled from Houston to the  territory, who did you go with from Houston to your  house at Buck Flats?  Well, my father and my mother, whole family.  Okay.  And your brother Peter?  Yes.  How old were you on -- when you last travelled out  there with your father and your mother and your  family?  I think I was up there with my father and mother was  about 11 because I went to school when I was 12.  Okay.  When you came back from school did you go back  out there?  Yes.  Okay.  Did you -- you indicated earlier you got  married in 1936?  Yes.  Did you travel out with your family there until you  got married?  Yes.  Until I got married.  How long would it take you to travel from Houston to  your home at Buck Flats?  With a team of horse it usually take us a good eight  hours.  And did you walk out on that territory when you were  younger?  Yes.  And how long would it take you to walk from Houston to  your place?  Oh, it takes -- well, we camp half ways.  You camp overnight half ways?  Yes.  So it would take two days?  Yes.  Was there a place where you camped when you stayed  out?  Yes.  Where was that?  At Bob Creek.  Okay.  Is there a Wet'suwet'en name for Bob Creek for  where you camped?  I can't remember the name.  There was a name for it.  Now, you said you went out in August and your father  put up hay. What did you do after?  Did you stay out  there after the haying season was over?  Yeah, we stayed there.  It's about the time that he 1  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  39  move up there for the winter.  Uh-huh.  And after he finished haying around October, that's  when he set his trapping for furs, beavers and that.  Now, where -- can you see in that picture, Exhibit 3,  where your father's hay fields were?  Well, you can see on the picture here that the open in  front here that's one of the part of it.  That's in the foreground for the record?  Yeah.  And then the river goes right around from where  you see the barn to the end of this house.   The  river's round like this.  It goes behind it?  Yeah, it goes behind it.  And in behind that barn  there's all brush there now.  When the picture was  taken it was all clear as I remembered, and that was  all hay field there, and my mother and dad had a  garden there too.  They put potatoes for winter,  vegetables, turnips and carrots there.  And there's  another field, you can see it there right in front of  the barn.  There's another field there.  That's that clearing that's to the right of the  picture in the middle part of the picture?  Yes.  That's another hay field.  Okay.  Now, who cleared those fields?  My mother and my father.  We all helped too.  I  remember helping them.  Did they clear them by hand?  Yes.  Well, the stumps they pull them out with a  horse.  Now, would you -- when would you return to Houston  from there if you went out in August?  What time of  year would you return?  Well, if there's no snow -- not too much snow, well,  we'll go back to Houston around Christmas with a team  of horse.  If it's too much snow we stayed in Buck  Flat.  And how long if you went back to Houston would you  stay there?  About a week.  A week, week and a half, and then go  back up again.  And then you -- would you return to the territory  then?  Yes.  Okay.  And how long would you stay on the territory  after Christmas?  Well, my father quits -- quit his trapping around 1  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  47  40  March.  Why was that?  Because that's when the fur is -- start losing the  hair and the fur inside start to go dark, so there's  no market for it.  And after he stopped trapping what did you do?  He just get ready to go to Moricetown.  He hunts moose  or whatever and they smoke them, get them ready to  bring to Moricetown.  What time of year would you go to Moricetown with your  family?  Around June the 1st.  Okay.  And would that be -- how would you travel to  Moricetown?  With a team of horse.  And a wagon?  Yes.  And how long would it take for you to go from your  territory to -- your father's territory to Moricetown?  About four days.  And where did you stay in Moricetown then?  My grandfather, my father's father, he has place  across from Moricetown across the river.  Okay.  This is the one you referred to this morning --  Yes.  -- where there was a farm --  Yes.  -- and a smoke house?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, do you remember if that house had an  upstairs and a downstairs?  Yes.  There was upstairs and downstairs.  Okay.  Why would you travel to Moricetown at the  beginning of June?  That's when all the feast is done and then salmon  runs.  That's where they get their salmon prepare for  winter to take back to their territory.  You say your family travelled to Moricetown.  Did they  ever travel to Hagwilget at that time of year?  Yes, they do too.  Okay.  And why would you travel to Hagwilget?  What  did your family do there?  That's for feast too.  They invite Hagwilget people.  They invite people from Moricetown.  Okay.  And Moricetown during their feast they invite  Hagwilget.  So if they invite them back and they stay 1  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  41  about a week, week and a half, in Hagwilget.  And when you're referring to Hagwilget and Moricetown  this is -- these communities then were located where  they are located today?  Yes.  Is that right?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, how long would you stay at Hagwilget if  you were up there for feasting?  About a week or so, whenever they finish, then come  back to Moricetown.  Okay.  And then when you returned to Moricetown, or if  you didn't go to Hagwilget, when you were at  Moricetown -- when you returned to Moricetown or if  you hadn't gone to Hagwilget when you were at  Moricetown, what -- what would your father and your  family do then at Moricetown?  Fishing.  Okay.  Was there any particular places in the  Moricetown canyon which your father used as fishing  sites?  Yes.  It was his father's site where he used to fish.  Okay.  And do you recall what side of the river that  was on?  It's on the same side as that where the house is.  Okay.  So if we refer to highway side of the river, it  would be on the opposite side?  On the opposite side of the river -- the bridge, yeah.  Okay.  Now, you know the canyon and there's presently  a small bridge that crosses over near the canyon over  the canyon at Moricetown?  Yes.  You're familiar with that?  Yes.  Would -- would the -- your grandfather's fishing sites  be upstream of that bridge, that is, on the Smithers  side of that bridge?  It's upper side of the bridge.  Upper side?  Yes.  Okay.  Do you know where the fish ladders are located  today?  Yes.  Have you seen them?  Yes.  Was your grandfather's site above those fish ladders  or below? 42  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  2 9 MR.  GRANT  30  31  32  33  34  35  3 6 MR.  GRANT  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Just below it.  Just below it, yeah.  Okay.  How did your father fish at Moricetown when he  went and used your grandfather's site?  With the gaff.  Similar to what is done today?  Yes.  Okay.  And what kind of fish would he catch there?  Spring salmon.  Okay.  And sockeye.  Okay.  And were you involved in the drying and the  preserving of those fish?  Yes.  And how would you preserve those fish?  Well, they salt some and then they dry most of it.  And when you say "dry", would it be smoke dried?  Yes, full dry smoke.  Now, you said "full dry", is that different than how  they dry it sometimes today?  Yeah. Today is half dried and they just freeze them.  Those days they make it full dry because there was no  freezer.  Okay.  And then your father -- then after -- how long  would you stay in Moricetown for the fishing season?  Around middle of August or sometimes if they get  things done early, leave earlier.  Okay. And then you would refer to Buck Flats?  Yes.  :   Okay.  Go off the record now because of the video  tape change.  So we'll take a break.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR AFTERNOON RECESS)  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  Okay.  Mrs. Bazil, you're still under oath.  This is  the beginning of tape 2 of the commission evidence of  Lucy Bazil and is after the afternoon adjournment on  the first day of evidence November 23rd, 1987.  Before the break I was asking you about where your  grandfather's fishing sites were and you told me  that -- you told us that your father used a gaff.  When you were younger do you remember anybody using --  fishing at Moricetown canyon in other ways than by  gaff?  Yes.  They call it Con ts'ee.  It's a fish basket. 43  1 There was two I remember.  2 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  Do you have a spelling for that, Mr.  3 Mitchell?  4 MR. MITCHELL: Thirty-nine.  5 MR. GRANT:  6 Q   Now, you've described that you travelled from Houston  7 to your father's territory at Ts'un c'os 'aay from the  8 time that you were very small from before you even  9 remember in fact; is that right?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Then you started to describe that you travelled with  12 your father further from your home place, which is  13 shown in Exhibit 3, in the Ts'un c'os 'aay territory  14 when you were older?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And when do you -- how old were you about when you  17 started to travel with your father on the territory?  18 A   I figure about 10 and 11.  19 Q   Okay.  Now, I'm showing you an affidavit -- just a  20 moment, an affidavit sworn on the 16th of November,  21 1987, and I'll show you the last page of that  22 affidavit and ask you if that's your signature there?  23 A   Yes.  24 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  Now, Mr. Mackenzie has indicated at the  25 break that there's some objection to the paragraphs 9  26 and 10, that is, the terminology that is used there,  27 and he has proposed a method of dealing with that.  I  28 would like to consider that overnight, but what I  29 would like to do is to mark this affidavit now as  30 Exhibit B for identification because I'm going to be  31 referring to other parts of it than those two  32 paragraphs.  And I want to advise you the reason I'm  33 using it -- in other words, it's -- your objection's  34 noted.  It's only Exhibit B for identification.  I  35 don't want to make a quick decision on what position I  36 take on your objection, but if we don't put the  37 affidavit in we're going to spend more time on words  38 than I would like to do in this commission and  39 references I want to make in the affidavit.  So it can  40 be marked as an exhibit for identification I think.  41 That just shows that it's what I'm referring to, the  42 document I'm referring to, and of course that doesn't  43 make it an exhibit proper.  Is that satisfactory for  44 now?  She's identified her signature and so it's a  45 document that she can identify and that's all it  46 stands for really at this point.  47 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  Our position, which I'll indicate now, is 44  1 that paragraphs 9 and 10 go beyond the order of the  2 Chief Justice as settled on November 20th in that they  3 relate to material in excess of the subjects permitted  4 to be adduced by affidavit, and also in that insofar  5 as they allege ownership and harvesting on the  6 territory.  And our position is that that affidavit  7 cannot be marked and that no questions can be led on  8 that affidavit.  Now, we do not object to you asking  9 questions about material in the affidavit and I'm  10 going to allow it to be marked as an exhibit for  11 identification, but I will not -- at least I will  12 object to having that marked as an exhibit with those  13 two paragraphs remaining in it.  14 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Would you mark it as Exhibit B for  15 identification, please?  16  17 (EXHIBIT B FOR IDENTIFICATION: Affidavit of Lucy  18 Bazil)  19  2 0 MR. GRANT:  21 Q   You had reviewed this affidavit before you signed it;  22 is that right?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   The facts set out there are true?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   Now, can you tell us where -- and I know you travelled  27 in different parts of the territory with your father,  28 can you tell us where you travelled on the Ts'un c'os  29 'aay territory with your father?  30 A  Well, he's got lines where he sets traps --  31 Q   Yes.  32 A   -- for martens, fisher or whatever he can get, and it  33 takes him one whole day to get there on foot with snow  34 shoes.  Then he has cabin at the end of each line that  35 he has.  36 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  37 MR. MACKENZIE: Mr. Grant, I'm sorry to interrupt.  There's one  38 more point that I wanted to add, that our objection to  39 those two paragraphs at this time should not be taken  40 as a -- meaning that we do not reserve our rights to  41 object for other reasons to other parts of the exhibit  42 at appropriate times when this commission evidence is  43 put into trial -- at trial.  44 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  Well, my understanding of the order is that  45 the deponents will be available at trial or on  46 commissions may be agreed upon or as may be ordered in  47 due course for cross-examination, and that of course 45  1 this witness will be available now during this  2 commission for cross-examination on the affidavit and  3 it was -- actually this commission was postponed one  4 week in order to give you the seven days to do that.  5 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  6 MR. GRANT:  And so I would be concerned if you withheld  7 cross-examination on this affidavit now because I  8 don't want this witness inconvenienced unnecessarily  9 by having to come back.  You've got your seven days  10 notice on the affidavit and I anticipate that you will  11 cross-examine to the extent you wish upon it.  12 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  That's true, and we will cross-examine this  13 week, and I didn't mean to imply that.  We wouldn't  14 ask for later cross-examination.  It's just that we  15 reserve our rights to object to some of the evidence  16 that's being led because we don't want to hold up the  17 commissions now.  And you've also indicated your  18 objections to telephone conferencing to obtain rulings  19 so with all those considerations in mind at this point  20 we reserve our rights to, when the evidence is put in  21 at trial, to object.  22 MR. GRANT:  Well, I may say that's one of the concerns I have  23 regarding your objection to paragraph 10 because  24 clearly this evidence, the exception to the Hearsay  25 Rule to which this evidence -- upon which this  26 evidence relies, as ordered by the Chief Justice,  27 depends upon statements as are in paragraph 10 of  28 reputation.  And reputation is an important part, and  29 I cannot agree to not allowing evidence of reputation  30 of boundaries going in by affidavit because otherwise  31 we -- the affidavits are meaningless because you will  32 object on the hearsay ground because there will be no  33 evidence of reputation.  And reputation is an  34 important part of that admissibility.  35 MR. MACKENZIE: I think we're in agreement on reputation being an  36 exception to the Hearsay Rule.  I think there's some  37 misunderstanding about the reason why we're objecting  38 to paragraph 10, but I think there's some agreement on  39 what you've just said.  4 0 MR. GRANT:  41 Q   Okay.  Now, I will refer you to page 4 of the  42 affidavit and there's a heading at the bottom of  43 paragraph 7 called "House and campsites".  Now, -- and  44 there's a handwritten comment in there that "My father  45 had cabins at these places.", after referring to four  46 places.  The first place is Ts'un c'os 'aay, and then  47 there's Whuus ts'anlii? 46  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Taan deet?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And Taaniits c'ekeen s'aay?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   Are those -- did you see your father's cabins at those  7 places?  8 A   Yes, I did.  9 Q   Now, can you describe -- well, Ts'un c'os 'aay, was  10 that the house that is in Exhibit 3?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   So that was where your father's main house was?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Now, the second one referred to there is Whuus  15 ts'anlii.  Did you travel there with your father?  16 A   Yes.  The Whuus ts'anlii, we go there in spring.  17 That's when they trap beaver and muskrat and they stay  18 there for about a week, a week or so, they get what  19 they went, and then they move out there again.  20 Q   Okay.  How would you travel from your house to there?  21 A   Team of horse, and then off the highway they just take  22 the horse in there, leave the wagon on the highway.  23 Q   Okay.  And can you describe where that place is in  24 relation to your house site at Ts'un c'os 'aay?  25 A   It's down towards Houston.  That's about the end of  26 the territory there towards Dzel teel k'un, towards  27 that high peak mountain, just below it.  There's two  28 little lakes there and this is where they do their  29 trapping.  30 MR. GRANT:   Do you have that name by the way?  You have it for  31 the reporter, the spelling?  32 MR. MITCHELL:   Yes, number 49.  33 MR. GRANT:  34 Q   Number 49.  We'll have -- we'll take photocopies of  35 your amended list and pass them around in due course.  36 Do you know if there is a name that the none  37 Indians call that mountain?  38 A  Well, that's Morice Mountain, Morice River Mountain.  39 It's a long one.  40 Q   Okay.  Did your father have the territory on the other  41 side of Morice Mountain from Whuus ts'anlii, in other  42 words, if he crossed over the mountain, was that still  43 part of his territory?  44 A   I don't know that part.  He never went out that far.  45 Q   Uh-huh.  46 A  Maybe it was, but it's too far to walk.  It's quite a  47 big mountain. 47  1 Q   Do you know what territory was next to him in that  2 area?  3 A   C'el tay toostaan kwe, that's Houston Tommy's.  4 Q   You've described in your affidavit a campsite or cabin  5 site at Taan deet?  6 A   Taan deet, yes.  7 Q   Where is that in relation to your house?  8 A   It's -- that's another line that he goes -- it's on  9 the other mountain Taneen, Taneen K'uts Legh. That's  10 the opposite side.  11 Q   That is "G" under "Hills".  Is that mountain —  12 A   That's shown behind the house on the picture here.  13 Q   Can you put a mark where Taneen K'uts Legh is?  You  14 can just make a mark with a X.  15 A  Well, it's right here at the end.  He walks over the  16 end here and on the other side where Taan deet is.  17 That's how far he goes.  18 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  Could you mark that with an "X" just where  19 he goes over there?  20 MR. MACKENZIE: Mr. Grant, the witness mentioned an Indian name  21 before she talked about Houston Tommy's territory and  22 in answer to your question "What was the next  23 territory?"  She said an Indian name and then said  24 Houston Tommy.  25 THE WITNESS:   It's C'el tay toostaan kwe.  26 MR. MACKENZIE: What's that?  27 THE WITNESS:   That's Houston Tommy's area, trapping area.  It's  28 up in Morice River.  29 MR. GRANT:  Just wait.  Do you have -- do you want the spelling  30 of that?  31 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, please.  32 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Do you want to give the spelling of that?  33 MR. MITCHELL:   C-'-e underlined 1, t-a-y- t-o-o-s-t-a-a-n  34 k-w-e.  35 MR. GRANT:  36 Q   Now, in Exhibit 3 you've marked with an "X" where the  37 hill in the background goes down.  Is the hill, the  38 ridge that's behind in the most of that picture in the  39 background, is there a name for that?  4 0       A   That mountain's name Taaneen K'uts.  41 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  That's —  42 MR. MITCHELL: Thirty-one.  4 3 MR. GRANT:  44 Q   Thirty-one on the list.  That's also referred to on  45 the list of hills, the sixth one down on page 4 of the  46 affidavit.  47 Can you just put a number one in the middle of 48  1 that ridge for the record?  2 A   Number one just up here.  3 MR. GRANT:   Yes, where that ridge is Taaneen K'uts.  Okay.  4 Thank you.  Just mark it with a blue pen, a number  5 one.  6 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Excuse me, just for a point of clarification.  7 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  I want to be -- to go off the record  8 because there's some concern the word person has.  9 MS. KOENIGSBERG: I hope it's the same concern I have.  Off the record.  (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  Okay.  Let's go back on the record.  Okay.  Just there  was confusion.  The name of the ridge which is marked  as number 1 is the sixth name down on page four under  "Hills", Taaneen K'uts, and it's number 51 on the word  list for her evidence, not number 31.  When your father was at Whuus ts'anlii, that camp  that was near Morice Mountain, do you remember if he  hunted on Morice Mountain?  Yes, he do, but he doesn't go too far up.  He gets  bear out of there.  You had said earlier that your mom -- mother and  father showed you where Azak Coo had a branch house  and you said that was on the territory at Ts'un c'os  'aay?  Yes.  Can you describe where it was on the territory in  relation to other geographic land marks?  Well, that house on the picture there that would be  about two miles below it towards Houston.  When you say -- and that is below it on Neen Lii kwe,  the Buck Creek?  Yeah.  It's along the river.  Yeah.  Neen Lii kwe is the second name under "Rivers"  on page 4 of the affidavit.  Did your father -- you indicated earlier that your  father had took Peter Alfred out to the territory?  Yes.  When did he start to take Peter out to the territory?  I remember about 1930.  Okay.  Did Peter stay with you at your house at Ts'un  c'os 'aay?  Yes.  Yes, he did.  And why did your father take Peter out?  10 MR.  GRANT  11  12  13  14 MR.  GRANT  15  Q  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q 49  1 A Because my father was not feeling good anymore to do  2 his -- do much trapping himself, and he feel that he  3 was getting older and he decide that Peter's going to  4 be the next, so he took him out to show him the  5 territory.  6 Q Did Peter use the territory after your father died?  7 A Yes.  8 Q Okay.  Now, I believe you described that after your  9 father died Sarah Holland took the name —  10 A Yes.  11 Q — Kanoots?  12 A Yes.  13 Q Now, did she use the territory?  14 A She didn't.  She was a woman and her husband was busy  15 and she never did went there.  16 Q Okay.  Did Peter use the territory while she held the  17 name Kanoots?  18 A Yes.  19 Q And did he -- was there anything he did for her?  20 A Yes, he shared with whatever he got from there.  21 MR. MACKENZIE: Mr. Grant, are these aspects of the evidence  22 about the use of Madeek's territory that the witness  23 is describing now her personal knowledge?  2 4 MR. GRANT:  25 Q Okay.  Peter Alfred is now deceased?  26 A Yes.  27 Q And when he went onto the territory did he go on  28 with -- did he go onto the territory alone?  29 A George Naziel and Peter Alfred and his wife went with  30 him.  31 Q Okay.  And his wife was Madeline Alfred?  32 A Yes.  33 Q Okay.  And George Naziel is now deceased?  34 A Yes.  35 Q Okay.  You were with your father on the territory when  36 he was training Peter about the territory?  37 A Yes.  1930 I was still at home, and '31 he went up  38 there again with his wife.  That's when he got  39 married.  40 Q Peter Alfred did?  41 A Yeah, and I was still at home.  42 Q Okay.  Do you know a place which is known as Parrot  43 Lake?  44 A I don't remember that.  45 Q Okay.  Did you know Thomas George?  46 A Yes.  47 Q What name did Thomas George hold? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  50  Gisdaywa.  Okay.  Did Gisdaywa, Thomas George, have a territory  near your father's?  Yes.  Where was that?  It was just next to my fathers.  In your affidavit you say that Gisdaywa's territory,  in paragraph 6 on page 3, Gisdaywa's territory is to  the west of your father's territory; is that right?  Yes.  Okay.  And today Alfred Joseph is Gisdaywa?  Yes.  Did you know a place called Neen lii?  Yes.  Can you tell us what Neen lii is?  Well, it's south -- it's the south side of Buck Flat  where you see that picture.  In this picture here of the house?  Yes.  Okay.  And did you know Alfred Namox?  Yes.  And did he travel through your father's territory?  Yes, they go through there with a team of horse and  they stay overnight at our place when they going on  the way to their territory.  And where was Alfred Namox's territory?  Just above by Neen lii is the line.  Okay.  And was Alfred Namox -- did he hold the chief's  name Namox?  Yes.  Okay.  Did you know Peter -- oh, and Alfred Namox was  a member of the Tsayu clan?  Yes.  Did you know Peter Pierre?  Yes.  And what clan did he belong to?  He's Gitdumden.  Okay.  And was he from Madeek's house?  Yes.  Do you recall the name he held?  I don't remember.  Do you remember telling me that name before?  I did, but I can't remember now.  Do you remember the name Sk'a deen, number 27?  Sk'a deen?  Sk'a deen.  Was that his name?  Yes. 1  Q  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  51  Now, in Exhibit B you have described the boundaries of  your father's territory, and I'm referring you to  paragraph 5, and you have reviewed these boundaries  before signing this affidavit?  Yes.  And they are correct?  Yes.  Now, how did you know the boundaries of your father's  territory?  Well, not only once that my father will talk about it,  my brother, me and my mother, all -- he talked about  it a lot, how it was, and where he went, and how far  he goes, and every day he went somewhere he talks  about it.  That's how I know where the territory is.  Did he talk to you about who -- which chiefs held the  territories next to his?  Yes.  Now, I was asking you about some of the camps of your  father and you've explained where Whuus ts'anlii was  and Taan deet was.  Did your father have a camp called  Taaniits c'ek'een s'aay?  Yes.  And it's the last one under "Houses and campsites" on  page 4 of the affidavit.  Did -- can you describe  where that was in relation to your house site in  Exhibit 3?  It's on the west side of that.  The picture, if you  look at -- it's on the west side.  It's the opposite  side of that mountain you're looking at that's on the  west.  So it would be on the left side of the picture as  you're facing the picture?  Well, you see, I'm looking at it this way, so it was  sitting this way from the highway.  Uh-huh.  And it's on this side.  That's the west side.  That's  where Taaniits ts'anlii -- Taaniits c'ek'een s'aay.  So it would be behind the person taking the picture?  Yeah, behind him like.  Right.  What kind of a place did your father have at  Taaniits c'ek'een s'aay?  It's a swamp.  I've been there with him lots of times.  It's a big swamp and it's -- right in the middle of it  is a little lake and we call it the pond I guess and  that's where all the beavers has their houses for  winter.  I don't know what they call it in English,  but that's what it is and that's the name.  That's 1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  47  52  what they call it, Taaniits c'ek'een s'aay.  C'ek'een  means that beaver they make a house like.  Right.  And that's where they trap their beavers in the fall  and in the spring.  So he has cabin there too.  And you travelled there with your father?  Yes, many times.  Now, do you know the chief's name Smogelgem?  Yes.  And did Smogelgem have a territory next to your  father's?  I never been there, but I heard about it.  It's  past -- further up.  Further up Buck Flat or Buck Creek?  Yes. Uh-huh.  I hear about it.  And did Wah tah kwets have a territory near your  father's?  Yes.  It was next to him down towards Houston.  And to the south of the Ts'un c'os 'aay territory did  Smogelgem have another territory?  I don't know about that one.  Did your father tell you how long this territory had  belonged to Madeek?  Well, he didn't say miles or anything like that, but  he point them out every time we travelled.  Uh-huh.  He'd tell us -- he pointed out the hills and creeks  and where the lakes are all that they always for the  lines, like where the inside their lines.  Uh-huh.  Their territory, and every time we travelled he points  them out to us.  And did he tell you -- had this territory, the  boundaries of this territory, changed in your  lifetime?  Yes, it did.  Okay.  Can -- do you understand what I mean by that  question?  Have the boundaries changed?  Yes.  How have they changed?  Well, my father said that the area, the trapping  territory, was where he pointed out to us how -- how  far they go, but then after the -- somehow the game  warden give them the maps, they mapped it out for  them, and he said something like "It's only 16 miles  square and it's supposed to be bigger than that.", but  this is what they gave him.  I know he was complaining 1  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  53  about it a lot of times not only once.  Okay.  So what you're saying is the game warden  gave -- registered as a trap line less than what your  father's territory was?  Yes.  Yes.  Did the territory change as far as the Wet'suwet'en  were concerned?  Did other chiefs take part of your  father's territory?  No.  Okay.  And you've heard this territory described in  the feast hall?  Yes.  Did your father tell you which house owned this  territory?  Madeek's House.  Who taught your father about this territory?  Azak Coo.  Okay.  Now, I just refer you to paragraph 9.  Now,  that says in paragraph 9 at the bottom it was passed  on to him by the former Kanoots, Azak, who's now  deceased.  Now, I understand your evidence today is that  you're not certain if Azak Coo held the name Kanoots;  is that right?  Yes.  Okay.  So that that's -- that may not have been his  name?  Yes.  But it was Azak Coo --  Azak Coo.  He's the one that remained there until the  day he died and then my father took over.  Okay.  Do you remember any non-Indian people living on  your father's territory?  Yes.  When you were young?  Yes.  Do you remember their names?  There's two families were there, as I remember, one  was below us towards Houston was Dick Hayes.  He had a  farm there.  Uh-huh.  Another -- another family above us was Tony Lapelle.  Yes.  Do you remember when Dick Hayes moved on to  there?  They were there as I remember.  Did your father visit with them and talk to these  people? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  54  Yes.  Okay.  And did they get along well?  Yes.  Okay.  They have respect for my father.  Okay.  When they lived there did they restrict, or by  being there, did they restrict your father's trapping  or what he was doing on the territory?  No.  Okay.  Can you tell me, did you visit them with your  father?  Yes.  Okay.  Can you tell me how your father established  what his relationship was with them regarding  trapping?  Well, they probably know ahead of time that every time  my father going to set traps in the springtime is by  the river, and all those farmers were right by the  river where the beavers are.  And my father goes there  and he tells the people that "I'm going to set traps.  You better tie up your dogs, whatever, your animals  because I'm going to set traps.  I don't want to catch  them."  And they will do what my father tells them.  Even I used to go with him, he's going to a house and  have coffee and talk with him for quite a while, and  then he set traps in front of their farms.  There was  no problem.  Nobody said a word.  And when he's  finished he take his trap out and he tells them "I'm  through now.", and they agree what he says and he's  agree with them too.  Okay.  And you were present when he had these  discussions with him?  Yes, lots of times.  And did they, these farmers, did they ever hunt on the  territory to your knowledge?  Not very much.  Like in the -- around 1930's, the hard  times, I remember they used to come on saddle horse  and ask my dad if they could get moose or deer,  whatever they can find, and they ask him for  permission and he told them where, which one to go to,  where to get them at.  And what he asked them is -- my  father believed that he doesn't waste anything and he  knows that they can use the skin, so he asked them if  he could have the skin if they do kill something.  And  they do.  If they kill moose or deer they bring the  hide for my father.  And what did your father or mother do with the hides? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42 MR.  GRA1  43  44  45  46  47  55  She tans them.  Your mother did?  Yes.  Okay.  And you were present when these kinds of  discussions occurred when they came in to your father?  Yes.  Do you remember their wives, the white women, what  they did at the time of the depression?  Did they --  Yes.  There too, you know, my mother used to catch --  she has a net and she sets net in the river and she'll  get all kinds of small fish like Dolly Varden, white  fish, and they know that my mother always have them,  so they'll bring something to trade with her, even  their clothes, or whatever they -- they have extra  they'll trade with my mother for that.  Was the -- you said your father didn't like to waste  the animals.  Can you tell me more about that?  Why  didn't he want to waste the skins?  Well, the skin is more important for Indian people  those days because the skin was in use all the time.  They use it as moccasins and they use it at feasts.  Moccasins was always used in the territory when they  wear snow shoes in the wintertime.  They can't use  rubber boots, they have to use moccasin, so any animal  that they get the skin was saved.  It was more  important to them to save it and prepare it right  away.  And is it still -- the skin still used today?  They still use them today.  Okay.  Do you remember the kinds of animals that your  father trapped for on the territory?  Oh, there's lots.  Well, the higher up in the mountain  was marten, fisher, coyote, wolves, wolverine, mink,  lynx, weasel, even squirrels, muskrat, beaver.  Fox?  Fox.  Yes.  Okay.  And he sold the furs?  Yes.  And he used the money at feasts?  Yes.  Half of it goes to feast, half of it we live on  it.  :   Okay.  Maybe we can adjourn now until tomorrow  morning. 56  1  2  3 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO NOVEMBER 24th, 1987)  4  5 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  6 a true and accurate transcript of the  7 proceedings transcribed to the best  8 of my skill and ability.  9  10  11 Tanita S. French  12 Official Reporter  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 57  1  2 November 24th, 1987  3 Smithers, B.C.  4  5 LUCY BAZIL, Witness, Previously sworn;  6 GEORGE HOLLAND, Interpreter, Previously sworn;  7  8 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  This is the second day commission evidence of  9 Lucy Bazil, Tuesday, November 24th, 1987.  The same  10 parties as were here yesterday are here today, that  11 is, the same lawyers, Mr. Holland is the interpreter,  12 same court reporter, and Mr. Mitchell.  13 For the record, before we proceed I've had a  14 discussion this morning with counsel for the province  15 and counsel for Canada and proposed, which they did  16 not disagree with, that the exhibits that were marked  17 as Exhibit A and B yesterday should be marked by  18 numerical order so there's consistency in sequencing.  19 Therefore Exhibit A, which was the genealogy of  20 Madeek, is now Exhibit 2 for identification, and  21 Exhibit B is now, which was the affidavit of Lucy  22 Bazil with respect to territory, is now Exhibit 4 for  23 identification.  And it is understood by the -- by  24 this, that the objections indicated yesterday on the  25 record by Mr. MacKenzie are -- still stand, but the  26 numbering is in order for us to be able to not get --  27 have a confusion of exhibits.  28 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  I agree that it's useful not to have a  29 confusion of exhibits and I agree also that Exhibit A,  30 which is the Madeek genealogy, is marked in this  31 commission only for identification purposes.  It has  32 not been proved by the witness and we went through  33 that yesterday.  And Exhibit 4 for identification is  34 Lucy Bazil's affidavit and again we have fundamental  35 objections to that affidavit being proven and marked  36 as a proper exhibit and that will have to be resolved  37 by the parties or by a ruling of the Chief Justice.  38  39 (EXHIBIT 2 FOR IDENTIFICATION: Madeek genealogy  40 previously marked as Exhibit A for identification)  41  42 (EXHIBIT 4 FOR IDENTIFICATION: Lucy Bazil's affidavit,  43 previously marked as Exhibit B for identification.)  44  45 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Just the one point is is that I do not  46 concede that Exhibit 2, the Madeek genealogy, has not  47 been proven by the witness.  I do concede that it was 1 not disclosed -- was not delivered to you until -- in  2 fact you didn't receive it until November 23rd.  3 Although it was couriered to you on November 18th the  4 day after it was produced, for some reason it wasn't  5 delivered.  I take the position that this witness  6 through her evidence has proven the names and the  7 people of that house, but in any event that will be  8 dealt with at the time -- at some future time when the  9 admissibility of that document is challenged.  10 MR. MACKENZIE: Okay.  Well —  11 MR. GRANT:  And I've also indicated that there's other witnesses  12 who will be able to be cross-examined as well on that  13 genealogy.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  Okay.  I understand your position.  I'll just  15 reiterate our strong concern.  Without criticising  16 your production process, our strong concern that that  17 not having been given to us within the time required  18 we had -- we were not able to prepare for it for  19 cross-examination and it would not be fair equitable  20 to have it proved as a normal exhibit in this  21 commission without us having an opportunity to  22 cross-examine fully on it.  2 3 MR. GRANT:  24 Q   I put before you Mrs. Bazil the — Exhibit 4, the  25 affidavit, and I have opened it to paragraph 9.  In  26 that paragraph you swear that, and I quote:  27  28 "My father told me that throughout that  2 9 time"  30  31 And this refers to the preceding paragraph, which  32 says -- and I maybe should start with paragraph 8  33 where you swear to the fact that:  34  35 "the boundary of the Ts'un c'os 'aay  36 territory which we reviewed yesterday and is in  37 the affidavit described above has remained the  38 same throughout my lifetime."  39  40 Is that true?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And that your father told you that it had "...remained  43 the same since long before the arrival of the European  44 people here."; is that true?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   You then say that your "...father told me that  47 throughout that time", referring to the time since 59  1 before the Europeans came, "the members of the House  2 of Madeek had owned, harvested and looked after the  3 Ts'un c'os 'aay territory from generation to  4 generation."?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   Now, your father did tell you that?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Is there a Wet'suwet'en word or phrase for ownership  9 of territory, for ownership?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   What is it?  12 A   Only one person own it.  The caretaker was my father  13 at the time.  14 Q   Yes?  15 A   But it's owned by the whole house of the Madeek's  16 tribe.  17 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  So when you say the members of the House of  18 Madeek —  19 MR. MACKENZIE: Excuse me, Mr. Grant, pardon me for interrupting,  20 but I think you recall that we've objected to this  21 information being in the affidavit and because it --  22 in our view it goes outside the Chief Justice's order  23 and I have not objected to you calling the evidence  24 from the witness apart from the affidavit, but since  25 it's territorial evidence I would ask that you not  26 lead her, not lead the witness when you're calling the  27 evidence about the Madeek territory from this witness.  28 MR. GRANT:  I'm sorry, are you -- I'm -- I understand your  29 concern, but I'm not sure what you mean mean by what  30 you're saying I was leading with.  31 MR. MACKENZIE: You read out the first sentence of paragraph 9.  32 MR. GRANT:  I see.  You're saying by reading that out that I'm  33 leading?  34 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  35 MR. GRANT:  Miss Koenigsberg, do you want to say something to --  36 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Yes.  37 MR. GRANT:  You may as well jump in there.  38 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Well, the concern isn't — in my view my only  39 concern isn't that you read out the sentence, which I  40 think has other difficulties than leading, but that  41 then you said "Your father did say that to you?", and  42 that in my view would be in the form of a  43 cross-examination question and it certainly cements  44 the leading aspect.  4 5 MR. GRANT:  46 Q   Okay.  I missed out the second point.  I concede that  47 that's leading.  I don't think reading out a sentence 60  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13 MR.  14 MR.  15 MR.  16 MR.  17 MR.  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41 MR.  42  43  44  45  4 6 MR.  4 7 MR.  A  Q  A  Q  A  GRANT:  MITCHELL  GRANT:  MITCHELL  GRANT:  Q  that's in a sworn affidavit is leading, but I agree  with you.  Before the interjections, I asked you what -- if  there is a Wet'suwet'en term which means -- when you  say the members of the House of Madeek own a  territory, is there a Wet'suwet'en term for owning a  territory?  You mean the language?  In the Wet'suwet'en language, yes?  Yes.  What is it?  Yuntah 'Oltsen.  Can you put a number to that word for us?  Fifty-five.  It will be 55.  Uh-huh.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  GRANT  Okay.  Now, you also said that your father was the  caretaker of the territory?  That's what it's -- that what it is.  It's whoever's  got the name comes first.  He's the caretaker, then he  lives there.  I see.  And it belongs to all the whole house that can use the  place.  Uh-huh.  The territory, not only my father.  Okay.  And this was the case when your father was on  the territory?  Yes.  What about after your father's death?  Well, that's when it was take over by his nephew.  The  one he train was Peter Alfred.  And who owned the territory in the Wet'suwet'en view  after your father died?  Madeek's House.  House?  It was still Madeek's  Yes.  And what about today?  Still the same.  :   Okay.  In your affidavit you indicate that your  father told you that people harvested, people of the  House of Madeek harvested on the territory.  Can you  tell us in more detail what your father told you about  that?  MACKENZIE: I object to that question.  GRANT:  Because of reference to the paragraph? 61  1 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  2 MR. GRANT:  3 Q Maybe I should rephrase it to avoid future problems.  4 Did your father tell you that?  5 A Yes.  6 Q Okay.  What did he tell you about harvesting?  7 A Well, like he's the caretaker there and he looks after  8 the whole territory and he's using the territory and  9 what he gets out of that he shares with the -- with  10 the Madeek's House, the elders.  11 Q Okay.  Did your father tell you that people when he  12 was young harvested on the territory?  13 A Yes.  14 Q And who would that have been?  15 A You mean before him?  16 Q Yes.  17 A That's Azak.  18 Q Okay.  19 A Azak Coo.  20 Q Azak Coo who you referred to yesterday?  21 A Yes, because he's his uncle.  Yes.  22 Q You describe in your evidence that your father was a  23 caretaker.  In other evidence of Wet'suwet'en  24 witnesses the term Neg'edeld'es has been used?  25 A Yes.  26 Q When you talk about your father as a caretaker, is it  27 Neg'edeld'es that you are referring to?  28 A No, not him.  2 9 Q And why is that?  30 A Because he looks after the territory.  31 Q Okay.  And that is the territory of his own house?  32 A Yes.  33 Q Can you give some example of how your father looked  34 after the territory for the members of the House of  35 Madeek?  36 A Well, he lived there.  He build a house twice there,  37 and he live there about -- I'll say about ten months  38 out of the year between Houston and there.  He had a  39 house in Houston too and between there, but  40 wintertime -- mostly wintertime, he lives in Ts'un  41 c'os 'aay using the territory.  42 Q And your father was taught about this territory by  43 Azak Coo?  44 A Yes.  45 Q And of course Asak Coo is now dead?  46 A Yes.  47 Q Have you heard the Ts'un c'os 'aay territory described 62  1 in any feasts?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Can you give us an example of some feasts where it was  4 described?  5 A   One that I remember was my -- when my father's death  6 after he died they had a feast and that's when was --  7 they didn't do anything about it, but they mention who  8 was going to be the next person to take his place was  9 Peter Alfred.  10 Q   Uh-huh.  And did they refer to the Ts'un c'os 'aay  11 territory then?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And was it described?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   Okay.  And where was that feast held?  16 A   In Moricetown.  17 Q   Okay.  I believe you said that was around 1941 or  18 1942?  19 A   Somewhere there.  Yes.  20 Q   Peter Alfred died recently; is that right?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   Were you at his feast?  23 A   No.  24 Q   Okay.  Was, as a member -- as a person whose father  25 was in the House of Madeek, were you told about that  26 feast?  27 A   Yes.  28 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  Do you know if that —  29 MR. MACKENZIE: What's the basis of that?  30 MR. GRANT:  If that territory was described at that feast?  31 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  32 MR. MACKENZIE: What's the source of that information, please?  33 MR. GRANT:  34 Q   Who told you?  35 A   By his wife.  36 Q   That's Mrs. Madeline Alfred?  37 A   Yes.  38 MR. MACKENZIE: Is Madeline Alfred still alive?  39 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  40 MR. MACKENZIE: I'm sorry, Mr. Grant, I didn't ask the question  41 to your witness.  I directed the question to you.  42 MR. GRANT:  Madeline Alfred is still alive and she's going to be  43 a witness.  44 MR. MACKENZIE: Good.  I think you responded to the question  45 behind my question and I thank you. The point is as  46 you'll recall, the Chief Justice has said that  47 information from living persons given to the witness 63  1  2  3  4 MR.  GRANT  5  Q  6  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  3 8 MR.  GRANT  3 9 MR.  macke:  40  41  42  4 3 MR.  GRANT  44  Q  45  46  47  cannot be adduced unless that other third person is  going to be called at trial or an affidavit produced,  and I think you've responded to that.  That person is going to be a witness so you're going  to have an opportunity to examine that person.  Do you know who's going to succeed or who has  succeeded or is going to succeed Peter Alfred as  Kanoots?  Yes.  Who's that?  Freddie Joseph.  Were you involved in that decision of the selection of  the successor?  No.  Were you informed -- you were informed of that  decision?  Yes.  And by who?  By Madeline.  That's Peter's wife?  Yes.  Okay.  So just note here that if Mr. Mackenzie or Miss  Koenigsberg asks a question while I'm questioning you,  you don't have to answer their question?  I'm sorry.  No, that's okay.  Is this Ts'un c'os 'aay territory or  is the -- is the -- do the other Wet'suwet'en chiefs  recognize Madeek's house as being the owners of this  territory?  Yes.  And how do they show that recognition?  Well, they -- they talk about it in the feast house.  And they agree with what is said about it belonging to  Madeek?  Yes.  It's always discussed in the feast house before  it's finished.  :   Okay.  JZIE: Now, that was a leading question I think you'll  agree and we didn't object, but I think we're all  paying very close attention now with respect, Mr.  Grant.  I'd like to return to some of the things that your  father did on the territory and yesterday you were  describing him -- the furs that he got from the  territory and what he did with them.  Did your father 64  1 fish on any locations in the Ts'un c'os 'aay  2 territory?  3 A Yes.  4 Q Where did he fish?  5 A At K'en kia ben.  6 MR. GRANT:   Just a moment.  What is it?  7 MR. MITCHELL: Thirty-three.  8 MR. GRANT:  9 Q That is a lake on the territory; is that right?  10 A Yes.  11 Q That's also, although spelled differently, is the  12 second name under the paragraph 7 under "Lakes".  13 Okay.  Where else did he trap -- or fish?  14 A At the falls.  It's Neen lii.  15 Q Neen lii?  16 A And then down the Neen Lii kwe.  17 Q Thirty-eight and 52.  And what kinds of fish would  18 he -- what would he fish for at K'en kia ben?  19 A Trout.  20 Q Okay.  Anything else?  21 A No.  22 Q What about at Neen lii?  23 A Neen lii is all kinds.  We even get steel head from  24 there.  25 Q Okay.  What time of year would he go to K'en kia ben  26 to fish?  27 A Oh, any time of the year.  2 8 Q And he would fish in the winter months?  29 A Yes, through the ice.  30 Q How would he fish through the ice? What would he use?  31 A They chop the ice and they put bait on the hook and  32 they put it down the hole.  33 Q Okay.  34 A And leave it for a few hours and then they picked it  35 up.  36 Q Okay.  37 A Summertime they use net.  38 Q Okay.  Was there any place where you fished or your  39 father fished for steel head in the territory?  40 A Yes, at the river Neen Lii kwe.  41 Q Neen Lii kwe?  42 A Neen Lii.  That's where he mostly get it from.  43 Q Yes.  And what time of year would he fish for steel  44 head?  45 A In the fall.  46 Q Okay.  47 A Even early in spring. 65  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17 MR.  GRANT  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  2 6 MR.  GRANT  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  Before and after the ice?  Okay  Yes.  Okay.  I'm showing yo  front of something.  recognize that photog  Yes.  That's my broth  u a photograph of two men in  I don't want to lead.  Do you  raph where it was taken?  er Peter Alfred and it's at the  falls.  That's Neen lii.  That's Neen lii?  Yeah.  Okay.  Can you just  left on this side?  That's Peter Alfred  And it's your brother  Yes.  And you've been to th  I went with my father  :   Okay.  Okay.  I'd  number 5 please, and  62, Tab 8.  It contai  course that original  a copy of that photog  - okay.  Which of them is on the  n the left.  Peter Jim?  at place yourself?  like that to be marked as Exhibit  for the record this is Exhibit  ns the same photograph, but of  is in the court files so this is  raph.  (EXHIBIT 5:  previously)  Photograph marked as Exhibit 62, Tab  Do you know when that picture was taken?  The last trip my brother went with Peter.  That's what  he told me, but I don't know what year it was taken.  Okay.  Is Neen lii an important place in the Ts'un  c'os 'aay territory?  Yes, because that's the territorial line.  That's  where they use for -- that's what they use for the  line, like that's how far my father goes.  He doesn't  go any further than that.  So that falls is a boundary?  Yes.  Now, after your father died you indicated that Peter  Alfred went on the territory and I believe you  indicated yesterday George Naziel went on the  territory with him?  Yes.  And this photograph indicates at least on this  occasion your own brother went on the territory?  Yes.  With Peter Alfred?  Yes. 66  1 Q   Now, your brother is a member of the House of Wah tah  2 kwets?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   Why would he go onto this territory?  5 A  Well, he goes there as Neg'edeld'es.  6 Q   Because he's the son --  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   -- of a member of the house?  9 A   Yes.  10 MR. MACKENZIE: Do you have the number?  11 MR. GRANT:  Did you get the number for Neg'edeld'es?  12 MR. MITCHELL: Thirty-seven.  13 MR. GRANT:  14 Q   Did Peter Alfred or George Naziel report to you on the  15 condition of the territory after they went back on it?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Can you tell us what they -- and they are both  18 deceased?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   Can you tell us what they told you about the territory  21 when they returned to it?  22 A  Well, they always said that "The place that you raised  23 we went back.  Every time we went back there we can't  24 even get off the highway.  There's 'No Trespassing'  25 sign all over and we can't even get no access to get  26 off the highway, no place to set traps for beaver."  27 They having hard time and they upset about it.  And  28 they ask me to speak on it if I go to any conventions  29 and speak about it and I always did.  30 Q   Did you travel to this territory with Peter Alfred  31 and/or your brother Peter Jim?  32 A   Once I did with my brother.  33 Q   Okay.  And when was that?  34 A  About ten years ago.  35 Q   Can you tell us what happened when you went to the  36 territory?  37 A  Well, it was Sunday.  My brother and us, my husband  38 and me, and my brother's daughter was with us and my  39 daughter and we were just showing them where the house  40 used to be.  There were some logs laying there and  41 bulldozed over and the barn was still sitting.  The  42 roof was all caved in, but the logs were still there.  43 We were walking around telling our children where we  44 grew up at and then the tractor came with a guy with  45 two dogs and we got scared of those dogs.  We did went  46 through the fence.  There was a fence across there and  47 the guy came and he asked what we're doing, we're 67  1 setting traps, and I'm the one that spoke up.  I told  2 him, I said "We just visiting this place here.  This  3 is where we grew up, my brother and I."  And he  4 changed his tune right now when I told him that, and  5 then he said "It's nice..." --  6 MR. MACKENZIE: Excuse me, you're not going to give evidence of  7 what that gentlemen said, are you?  8 MR. GRANT:  It's not for the truth of the facts.  It's for the  9 fact that he said it.  10 MR. MACKENZIE: Okay.  11 MR. GRANT:  12 Q   Go ahead, Mrs. Bazil.  13 A  And he changed the tune.  He looked pretty mad when he  14 first saw us.  But when I told him we was just showing  15 our children where we grew up at, was showing them  16 where the house used to be, and he changed the tune.  17 And he says "Well, you went through my fence, but", he  18 said "don't do it again.", he said, "But it's nice to  19 come back to your old home town.  I just came back  20 from the states.  I visit my home town.  It's nice to  21 get to see your home town where you grew up at."  22 That's the answer he gave me.  Then I said "We're  23 leaving right away.  We're just here for a few  24 minutes."  And then he left right away.  He didn't say  25 any more.  2 6 Q   Did you know who that man was?  27 A   No.  He was young fella, blond.  And his house was not  28 far from where our house was -- used to be.  29 Q   I'm showing you Exhibit 1, the photograph.  Is that  30 where that event occurred?  31 A   Yes.  Right where the house was.  That's where we were  32 standing when he came.  33 Q   Okay.  But this happened after that photograph because  34 the house wasn't standing anymore; is that right?  35 A   No.  No.  36 Q   Okay.  When you went up there on that occasion did you  37 see "No Trespassing" signs on your father's territory?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And what was it like driving up there in terms of  40 fencing or anything like that?  41 A   Yeah, there was fencing all over.  People living all  42 over the place.  43 Q   I believe, if I recall rightly, that you said where  44 the "X" is on Exhibit 1 was where your father  45 travelled around Taan deet which was one of his  46 cabins; is that right?  47 A   Yes. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  Now, did you ever go to Taan deet with your father?  Once or twice.  Yes.  Was Taan deet -- is it inside his territory or is it  on the boundary?  It's the boundary.  They use that lake as a boundary.  Okay.  And the house, the cabin was on this side of the lake.  Okay.  Yes.  Do you know who -- did your father tell you whose  territory was on the other side of the lake?  Alfred Namox.  And do you know what chief's name he held?  Namox.  In the description of the boundary in your affidavit,  paragraph 4, 5 1 guess, you refer to -- you may have  to help me, Mr. Holland --  Lt'sinii yes, which is an  unnamed ridge on government maps.  It's about half-way  down that description.  Lt'sinii yes, is that --  Yes.  Did your father -- was any part of that ridge in  your father's territory?  Yes.  Okay.  And was all of it in your father's territory or  was part of it somebody else's?  Well, he goes over the edge there.  Yes.  On the other side.  He goes over that.  When you travelled to the cabins with your father at  Taaniits c'ek'een s'aay did you -- this is the place  you described as the beaver lodge?  Taaniits c'ek'een s'aay.  Taaniits c'ek'een s'aay?  Yes.  Did you -- how did you travel there?  Walking.  And how long did it take you to get from there from  your --  About half a day.  That was from your house at --  Yes.  -- Ts'un c'os 'aay?   Now, you told us that Azak Coo  had this branch house that you were shown and it was  on the territory?  Yes.  And can you describe where it was in relation to the  bridges that crossed the creek? 69  1 A   There's -- about a couple miles below towards Houston  2 there's a bridge and there's a big hill beside it and  3 below that hill there's a bridge there across the Buck  4 River and then there's a field, big field.  They call  5 Taa dil k'un'.  6 Q   Okay.  Just a moment.  Do you have that?  We have to  7 try to have the transcript correct.  8 A   That's the one I forgot to name the last time.  9 Q   Do you want to give a spelling for that Mr. Mitchell?  10 Is it on the affidavit?  11 A   Taa dil k'un'.  12 MR. MITCHELL: Fifty-six.  13 MR. MACKENZIE: Can I have the spelling for that?  14 MR. MITCHELL   T-a-a d-i-1 k-'-u-n-'.  15 MR. GRANT:  16 Q   I'm sorry, you were saying that there was a field  17 called Taa dil k'un'?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Go on.  20 A  And then at the end of that field there's a big bush  21 there, big trees.  About half a mile is all big trees  22 along that area inside where the big timber.  This is  23 where that place was located at 'AI ben yex.  They  24 build that because they protect from the wind.  They  25 build it in the big timber.  26 Q   Can you say that name again?  27 A   'AI ben yex.  It means branch building.  28 MR. MITCHELL: 'AI ben yex?  29 THE WITNESS: 'AI ben yex.  30 MR. MITCHELL: Fifty-seven.  31 MR. GRANT:  32 Q   You've indicated who was the successor to Peter  33 Alfred.  Do you know who will be the successor or who  34 is the designated person to succeed George Naziel?  35 A   I guess I'll need interpreter for that.  Oh, that I  36 heard that in the feast house supposed to be Russel  37 Tiljoe.  38 Q   What would happen if there was no boys, no males to  39 take over the chief's position?  40 A   Yes, then it's a woman in line, a niece will be  41 chosen.  42 Q   You indicated yesterday that you knew of two families  43 that were on the territory when you were growing up,  44 two white families I should say, the Lapelles and the  45 Hayes.  Did your father tell you when those people  46 came on to the territory?  47 A   He said something about when the -- after the first 1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  Q  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  45  Q  46  47  70  world war.  Do you know if these people -- did he tell you where  they came from or why they were moving there?  Well, no.  There's only one Hayes that I remember.  He  was a German.  And Lapelle, do you remember what they were --  No.  -- where they were from?  Did your father ever talk to  you about a reserve, an Indian reserve on the Ts'un  c'os 'aay territory?  Yes.  Can you tell us what he told you about that?  He told me the same time as he said that when they  made the -- they made a trap line, the game warden  made a trap line at the same time as the white  settlers were getting in, and then where Ts'un c'os  'aay was they made a line for him and they showed him  how big and it's going to be his reserve and he showed  us the post was there, both side of the Ts'un c'os  'aay on the highway.  Did you see that post?  Yes.  What kind of a post was it?  It was a wooden post.  It was about -- I'll say about  six feet long.  Was it painted or marked in any way?  No, it was just plain, but it was just a little stain  on it, but no writing or anything.  And who did he say put in that post?  He didn't tell me exactly who did it, but he said at  the same time that they made that trap line smaller  that the territory -- it was done at the same time.  Did Peter Alfred talk to you before his death about  this post?  Yes.  What did he tell you?  He told me he found it was laying on the ground, but  he put it underneath the tree, the same place where it  was.  That's the last he seen it.  Was that before or after -- was that before or after  your house was down that he did that?  About that time when the house was still standing when  the last time he -- him and Madeline camped there on  the highway.  Did Peter Alfred tell you anything about how your  house -- what happened to your father's house?  Did he  see what happened? 1  A  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  71  Yes.  He told me they were camping on the highway  there and the house was torn down and there was a guy  there pulling the nails out of the building and he  went after him and this guy got mad and they had a  fight, tongue fight over it.  Like an argument you mean?  Yes.  Do you know if Madeline was there then?  Madeline was there at the time, but she left away.  She got scared and she walked away.  Was this an Indian person or a white man that was --  White man.  Okay.  Do you know who he was?  No.  Does Madeline know who he was?  No.  To your knowledge --  They know that the man was living there.  It was somebody living --  Yeah.  -- where your house was?  Yeah -- no, not exactly where the house was.  But in that area?  It was fenced in and the house was across from where  our house was.  Oh, I see.  So there was -- was there fence around  where your house was?  Yes.  And then there was another house?  Another house.  They build a new house.  Which was in the same fenced area?  Yeah.  What kind of food did you live on when you were  growing up on the Ts'un c'os 'aay territory?  Well, mostly came from the territory.  And what type of food was it?  Well, fish, meat of different kinds.  Like game meat?  Yes.  Like meat that your father hunted.  Was there ever a  time when there was a shortage of meat while you were  growing up there?  Yes.  Do you recall about how old you were when that  happened and what happened?  I remember it clearly because it was around the 30's.  Everybody was having hard time and my father goes out 1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  72  hunting every day, come home with nothing.  My mother  used to set snares for rabbits.  She might bring one  home a day and that's what we lived on.  It wasn't too  long it was picked up again.  Was there -- did your father tell you why he thought  this was happening or what had happened?  No, because they -- they all said it was depression  and they figure game was the same thing, but they  can't get it.  They don't see it.  Were there more hunters on your father's territory  then?  No, not very many.  Was there many white people living there on your  father's territory at that time?  Well, the two -- two families that I described, just  them.  Just those two families?  Yes.  I'll refer you to Exhibit 1 and I'll ask Mr. Holland,  who's nearer to you than I am, to point out to you  these names.  On that first page is Pat Namox.  You  know Pat Namox?  Yes.  Does Pat Namox still -- does he go out on any  territories?  He goes out to McDonnell Lake.  On that same page is John Namox.  Does he still go out  on territories?  He used to.  Not now.  Do you know why he doesn't now?  He's too old.  Okay.  But Pat still does now?  Yes.  Now, you referred to your brother Peter Jim.  Does he  still go out on territories?  Yes.  Do you know if he's trapped out on any territories  recently?  Up at Quick.  Yes.  And what does he trap for?  Beaver.  And your first husband Frank Bazil, when he was alive  did he go out on territories?  Yes.  What territories did he go out on?  My uncle's.  When you say your uncle's, who are you referring to? 73  problems  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17 MR.  18 MR.  19 MR.  2 0 MR.  21 MR.  22 MR.  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34 MR.  35  36  37  38  3 9 MR.  4 0 MR.  41 MR.  42  43  44  4 5 MR.  4 6 MR.  47  A   Jack Joseph.  Q   So that was Wah tah kwets' territories?  A   Yes.  Q   Was that -- why could he go out on Wah tah kwets'  territory?  A   He goes there for me.  Q   Okay.  Do other Wet'suwet'en still go out and use the  territories today?  A   Yes.  Q   Okay.  Is there any difficulty to your knowledge with  people using the territory?  Is there any  about it now?  A   Yes.  Q   What are those problems?  A  Well, there's no timber where they go.  No animals  because there's no timber.  MACKENZIE: Excuse me, I'm sorry, Mr. Grant.  GRANT:  You want to know the source of this information?  MACKENZIE: Yes.  GRANT:  I'm going to get to that.  MACKENZIE: Thank you.  GRANT:  Q   And can you tell us who -- who has described those  problems to you?  A  Well, my brother for one.  Q   Peter Jim?  A   Yes.  Q   Did George Naziel talk to you about that?  A   Yes.  Q   Okay.  Was there anyone else?  A  And so would Pat Namox.  Q   Did Peter Alfred talk to you about this?  A   Yes.  MACKENZIE: Okay.  Mr. Grant, I have no objection to  information from Peter Alfred, but information from  Peter Jim or Pat Namox, who are still living, can only  be given with your undertaking that they are going to  be called or an affidavit.  GRANT:  If that evidence is to be admissible, that's true.  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  GRANT:  I understand that.  If they're not called, they  haven't challenged the admissibility of the evidence.  She's described that George Naziel and Peter Alfred,  both of them deceased, talked to her.  MACKENZIE: Yes.  GRANT:  Q   Where did George Naziel and Peter Alfred talk to you 1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  47  74  about this problem?  Moricetown.  And what area were they referred referring to?  It was Buck Flat.  Ts'un c'os 'aay?  Yes.  You referred to the fact that Alfred Namox held the  name Namox.  Do you remember him when you were  younger?  Yes.  Did he stay with you at Ts'un c'os 'aay?  Yes.  And why would he stay with you there?  They stay overnight on the way up to their territory.  Okay.  Did he talk to you about his territory when he  stayed with you?  They talk about it, my father and him, and we  listened.  And did -- did Namox talk about whether there were  white people on his territory at that time?  There was a bachelor on his area he talked about.  And do you know what his name was?  John Erickson.  Other than that person, did he talk about any other  white people on his territory?  No.  Now, did your father and your grandmother Theresa,  Deliiz, did they talk to you about taking care of the  animals or protecting their resources at all?  Yes.  Can you tell us what they told you about that?  Well, they very particular about when they kill  something.  The first kill they share and they prepare  it.  Whatever's left they prepare to be used up, fish  or meat, whatever, make sure it's all used up before  they go out and get another one.  And what about the trees?  Did your father talk to you  about the trees on the territory?  Yes.  What did he tell you about that?  The trees, he always said, if he's going to cut wood  he cut the dead trees, and the tree that's there they  don't want to touch it.  It stay for a reason.  Animal  needs it.  They live in it and they eat it, so that's  why they don't cut down trees if they don't have to,  unless they going to use it for something, for  building they will. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  47  75  Did your father use trees from the territory?  Yes, for his house.  What he needed that's all he  takes.  And where did he get those trees from for his house?  Around -- around Ts'un c'os 'aay, close by where he  halls it in by the horse, and he doesn't cut -- he  doesn't cut two trees in one area.  He'll cut one tree  and then quite a ways away he'll cut another one.  Do you talk -- I'm sorry.  When Peter Alfred and  George Naziel were Kanoots and Madeek respectively,  did they talk to you about the territory --  Yes.  -- at Ts'un c'os 'aay?  Yes.  Was George concerned about the territory?  Yes.  What did he tell you about it?  Well, he complain they can't get off the road to do  hunting or setting traps or go to their trap lines  where -- the wintertime to trap.  They can't get off  the highway, off -- "No Trespassing" signs.  They  can't do too much on account of that to the territory  and they pretty upset, but there's nothing they can  do.  That's what they tell me.  And did -- is there anything that you did in regard to  that?  Well, the reason they ask me, "If you go to any  conventions" -- I used to go to conventions for this  non-status around Vancouver or wherever I go, they  told me to talk about something like that to be  recognized.  And did you speak about the destruction of your  territory?  Yes.  Yes.  Quite a few times I did.  And were you involved in the decision -- were you  present when the Wet'suwet'en chiefs made the decision  to take this -- the province to court in this court  case?  Yes.  Once I was there.  And did you agree with that decision?  Yes.  And why did you -- why did you think -- why did you  want the Wet'suwet'en chiefs to take the government to  court?  Well, I feel the way we lived before I kinda miss the  life that I had and disappeared, and the way I feel we  should have it the way we had it before.  There was no 76  MR.  9  10 MR.  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34 MR.  35  36  37  38  39 THE  4 0 MR.  41  42 THE  43  44  4 5 MR.  4 6 THE  4 7 MR.  problems.  Everybody was happy.  But today is not, and  I still say those days were the best than today.  This  is why I feel we should do something about it.  GRANT:   Maybe we'll go off the record for a moment.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR MORNING RECESS)  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  GRANT:  Q   Okay.  For the record, Miss Shirley Meldrum of my  office, a lawyer, is also present this morning and  it's reconvening after the morning break on November  24th, 1987, the examination of Lucy Bazil.  Mrs. Bazil, have you attended many Wet'suwet'en  feasts yourself?  A   Yes.  Q   And you described yesterday the feasts of -- well, you  briefly referred to the feasts of your father and your  husband and your mother.  Is it necessary at a feast  for the chiefs of other clans to be present?  A   Yes.  Q   Can you tell us why that is?  A   The reason they invite all the other clans, the other  houses, to witness what they do in the feast.  Q   And what happens if a chief who's invited as a guest  does not attend the feast?  A   I need an interpreter for that.  Q   Go ahead, Mr. Holland.  A   If a chief is invited and does not attend, then that  is when they go through the process of using down and  they have a ceremonial and then they bring the chief  back in.  GRANT:   Okay.  Mr. Holland, because -- just to avoid any  later challenge, Mrs. Bazil said something to you in  Wet'suwet'en before you translated the question.  Could you just translate what she said to you for the  record?  INTERPRETER: That was exactly what she —  GRANT:   Before you asked the question she started to  answer?  INTERPRETER: Yes.  I — I proceeded to ask the question to  her and then she realized what -- she couldn't explain  it in English --  GRANT:  Yes, I understand.  INTERPRETER: — what I answered there.  GRANT:  Do either counsel -- is there any difficulty from 1  2 MS.  KOEI  3 MR.  GRA1  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45  46  Q  47  A  77  counsel?  5SBERG: Fine.  Mrs. Bazil, it's only because it's of importance that  the interpreter translate, that's the only reason I  asked him that question, so there's no question of  what he said.  Where would the ceremony with the eagle down take  place for a chief who was not invited?  They'll go to their house.  And who would go?  The person that invited.  The person that invite.  So for example if it was a feast of Wah tah kwets'  house and another chief didn't come, it would be Wah  tah kwets?  Yes.  Okay.  Would anybody go with Wah tah kwets in that --  Yes.  Who else would go to him?  Next to him.  Other chiefs will go.  Including Guhe'?  Yes.  Have you seen this happen?  Once or twice.  Yes.  And after the eagle down ceremony does the person,  that is, the guest, does he come to a feast after  that?  Well, this happens -- he didn't show up at the feast  and never heard a word from him for what reason he  didn't show up, so that's when after that this is when  it happens.  They go to his house the next day or  something like that and they do this and then he --  the person that didn't come, and they -- what Georgie  explained, they did that to him, and then next feast  he comes back, he spends money.  When you say "he spends money" what do you mean?  He spends money.  He -- he -- well, I'll need the  interpreter for that too.  Okay.  Do you want to translate your answer?  Uh-huh.  Go ahead.  When an invited person does not show up, they go  through the process, as she had explained, and then  when he comes back in he passes out material and money  which is -- is returning of the down.  And who does he pass it out to?  The whole hall. 1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  78  Okay.  Would this be at a feast where his house was  hosting or would it be at a feast where he was a  guest?  Where he's feast.  At his own feast, his house feast.  And would it be explained that the eagle down had been  used --  Yes.  -- at that feast?  And is this, what you've described,  part of the Wet'suwet'en laws?  Yes.  And does it still go on today?  Yes.  Okay.  I'd like to ask you in more detail a few  questions about the Wet'suwet'en fishery at Moricetown  Canyon, and just to reiterate, and I'll go ahead  without my friends objecting, yesterday as I recall  your evidence it was that you went there in the summer  months and you -- your father would fish and you would  use your grandfather Johnny Mooseskin who held the  name Kweese's smoke house to full dry the fish and you  would do this in the summer months?  Yes.  That's fair.  And you described that your  grandfather's fishing site was upstream of the present  bridge at Moricetown Canyon on the far side of the  river, that is, the side of the river the Wet'sen kwe  across from the highway and -- but it was below the  fish ladders; is that right?  Yes.  Where the fish ladder's now located?  Yes.  Now, do you remember seeing your father catching --  gaffing fish there?  Yes.  And what type of fish would he first catch there when  he first started fishing there?  Spring salmon.  And was that -- did your father ever catch the -- what  did your father do with the first spring salmon he  would catch?  The first fish all was shared, I said that earlier,  with meat or fish.  My father first catch a big spring  salmon, my grandmother gets ahold of it and she cuts  it all up.  One meal to each house around the village.  Everybody gets a slice.  And then what's left over  that's what we'll eat.  You say your grandmother.  Which grandmother was this? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37 MR.  GRANT  3 8 MR.  MITCH  3 9 MR.  GRANT  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  79  My father's mother.  Deliiz?  Yes.  And was it shared -- when you say it was shared, was  it just with the people in Kweese and Wah tah kwets'  house?  No, the whole village, all different houses.  And that's the whole village of Moricetown?  Yes.  Does this apply if a moose is caught, for the first  moose that a young man catches among the Wet'suwet'en?  Yes.  And what is done with that?  They do the same thing.  Okay.  And have you seen that in your lifetime?  Yes.  Okay.  After your father -- how long a time would your  father spend fishing for spring, in other words, was  this for a week or for a number of weeks?  Maybe a week at the time the fish runs.  They don't  last too long.  The fish runs about a week and then  they -- after that it will be sockeye coming in.  Okay.  And how long would your father spend fishing  for sockeye?  Maybe a couple of weeks to get enough for the winter.  Okay.  Do you recall about how much fish your father  would -- I mean, when you say "enough for the winter",  how much that would be?  Well, everything he gets out of that one -- one  particular place, spring salmon place called Dee g'iit  k'et, belongs to my grandfather Johnny Mooseskin.  That name you just gave, that's the name of that  fishing site?  Yes.  Could you just say it again for Mr. Mitchell?  Dee g'iit k'et. Dee g'iit k'et.  Dee g'iit.  :   Do you wish to go off the record, Mr. Mitchell?  ilLL: Number 60.  Do you want the spelling now?  Number 60.  Okay.  And did he fish at the same site  for spring salmon and for sockeye?  No.  Just the spring salmon at that -- that site.  Okay.  And where did he fish for sockeye?  There's other places below.  Below?  Below the same area, but little bit lower.  Okay.  But it was still in the canyon? 80  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6 MR.  GRANT  7  8  9  10 MR.  GRANT  11  Q  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  Yes.  Still on the same side of the river?  Same side, just a little ways below it.  And was there a name for that site?  Yeah, Ts' waa ket it's called.  Ts' waa ket.  :   Just go off the record for a moment, please?  (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  Okay.  Go ahead.  Okay.  This is tape number 3, a  continuation of the commission evidence of Lucy Bazil,  and the witness is still -- you're still under oath in  this discovery -- or in this commission.  These two fishing sites that you've just  described, did they both belong to your grandfather,  your father's father?  No. The -- the last one I described was Gitdumden.  Okay. And who was the head chief in charge of that  site?  I can't remember which house it was belonged to, but  my father was allowed to gaff there.  Okay.  And your father gaffed for sockeye --  Yes.  -- at that second fishing site?  Yes.  And did other people use that site as well?  Yes.  Lots of people.  Do you recall the names of some of the other chiefs  that used that site or people --  I remember that place was used by many other houses.  Uh-huh.  Was it a very -- is that fishing site still  there?  Yes.  Okay.  It was not destroyed by the fish ladders?  No.  That one is still there.  Is it still used today?  Yes.  Now, did your father catch cohoe or pink salmon at  Moricetown?  Yes.  And what did he do with the cohoe salmon?  They do the same thing on the sockeye.  They full dried it?  Yes.  And so you took some -- some cohoe back to your home  as well? il  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  A  2 4 MR.  MIT<  2 5 MR.  GRA1  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  Yes. Yes.  What about the pink salmon?  The steel head comes very late.  Uh-huh.  Before we -- before it arrives we leave.  Oh, okay.  We don't get too much of that.  And the pink salmon came at the same time as the steel  head?  Yes, that's the steel head.  Yes.  Was there a fish -- a person from the Department of  Fisheries and Oceans that lived at Moricetown when you  were there?  Yes.  Do you remember what his name was?  I don't remember his name, but he was there.  Do you remember how long -- I mean, how long he was  there until?  About a few years I think.  I remember the house above  the canyon where he used to live.  Can you explain -- is there a Wet'suwet'en word for a  fish trap?  C'on ts'ee.  MITCHELL: Thirty-nine.  Thirty-nine.  And did the -- did you see fish traps at  Moricetown Canyon --  Yes.  -- or Con ts'ee?  And who ran -- who controlled these  fish traps?  The site I'm talking about, just above that, my  grandfather's site just above it, about ten feet above  where the fish ladder is now.  That's where one trap  was set by Peter Michell.  And do you know what house Peter Michell was from and  what clan?  Tsayu.  Lak sa mushu, I'm sorry.  Okay.  Did he hold a chief's name?  Yes.  Do you recall what it is right now?  That's the one I always forget.  Okay.  Just a moment.  This is -- he's the person who  had the hall, the Lak sa mushu hall you described  yesterday?  Yes, he had that hall.  And yesterday you -- you have given me his name  before?  You've told me his name on an earlier 1 occasion?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Is the name that you gave me and is his name Gus  4 ded'a — Gus ded'a lak'?  5 A   Gus ded'a lak', yes. Right.  6 MR. GRANT:   Gus ded'a lak' is 23.  Lak sa mushu, 22.  7 Was the other one Tsayu?  8 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Con ts'ee?  9 MR. MITCHELL:  Forty-three.  10 MR. GRANT:  11 Q   Forty-three is Tsayu and 39 is Con ts'ee.  12 Was there any other Con ts'ee besides this one of  13 Peter Michell's?  14 A   Yes.  There's one on the other side, on the highway  15 side where the fish ladder is going up the falls.  16 There was one there belongs to Wah tah kwets.  17 Q   And which -- who was Wah tah kwets then?  18 A   Louie Tommy, my uncle.  19 Q   Okay.  Did you get fish from that fish trap as well?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Did your uncle, Louie Tommy, what was his -- did he  22 live -- what was his concern or did he have any  23 relationship with the fish warden?  24 A   No.  25 Q   Was there a way that you regulated yourself as to when  26 you fished and when you didn't fish?  When I say  27 "you", I mean your father and your uncle Louie Tommy?  28 A  Well, towards the end when that fish warden was there  29 there was closing on Sunday and closing on Wednesday.  30 They don't gaff.  They don't put trap in.  31 Q   And did your uncle and your father agree with that?  32 A   No.  33 Q   Why not?  34 A   Because the fish doesn't run all summer.  The fish  35 gets into the canyon just for a short period of time  36 and the smoking time was the same.  While the smoking  37 is going and the smoke house is going they like to put  38 fish up every day.  There's three layers, the first  39 fresh they put it down in the lower part, and then a  40 couple of days after they move it up to a higher --  41 where it's going to get fully dry.  And if it's close  42 one day the bottom part will be empty and it holds  43 them back and then pretty soon there will be no more  44 fish and they don't get enough for the winter.  This  45 is why they were against it.  46 Q   And did the people continue to fish all the time even  47 after the fish warden put in these closures on Sunday 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  and Wednesday?  Well, when it's closed they can't fish.  What -- do you recall what the fish warden did to try  to stop -- to stop the people from fishing those days?  Yes.  What did he do?  Well, he goes after them.  If they do gaff he'd take  their permits away.  Okay.  You've described four fishing sites in the  canyon, two where your father gaffed, and the two  sites where there was the Con ts'ee.  Were any of  these sites affected by the fish ladders that were  installed?  Lots of them.  Okay.  Were the sites where the fish traps set up,  were they affected by that?  Yes.  Are those sites still there or are they gone now?  No, it's not there.  Okay.  Do you remember when the Fisheries proposed to  put fish ladders in at Moricetown?  Yes, but I can't remember what year exactly.  Okay.  Were you there then at that time when they were  talking about it?  Yes, once, at a big meeting they had.  Where was the meeting?  Moricetown Hall.  Okay.  Can you tell us what happened at that meeting  you were at?  There was Fisheries there and just about the whole  village was in the hall, and we were asked to go down  to listen, my husband and I, so we went.  And that's  the only time that I was there to listen to what was  going on.  Which hall was this at?  At Hagwilnegh's Hall.  Do you recall what the Fisheries said at that meeting  to the people?  Some of them.  There was lot of promising.  I remember  one promise was after they blast the canyon they going  to put fish ladder up both side, and they promise the  people from reserve they were going to get dip net and  they were going to put a lot of stuff in the canyon  for them to use, like how to wash their fish, and how  to smoke -- to smoke them.  And if they don't get  enough fish they were going to give them a case.  A  case of canned salmon, they promise, will be given to 84  1 each family to live on the winter.  2 Q   Do you know -- the fish ladders were installed in the  3 canyon weren't they?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Did the Wet'suwet'en people at that meeting, did they  6 agree that the ladders should be put in?  7 A  Well, everybody was disagree and -- at the time when I  8 was there, but then after I didn't go back I don't  9 know who -- who agreed.  I didn't know.  10 Q   Okay.  You said "everybody was disagree".  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   You mean they disagreed with the ladders?  13 A   Yes.  Yes, they were disagree.  14 Q   And why did they say they disagreed at that meeting?  15 A   Because they liked to do the way they do in the  16 century, the way they dry their fish, they like it  17 that way.  They like to keep things the same.  18 Q   So at that meeting -- did any of the chiefs consent to  19 the fish ladders at the meeting you were at?  2 0 A   No.  21 Q   Okay.  Do you know if there were meetings after that?  22 A   There was more after, but we didn't go.  23 Q   When you were younger on, I'm referring now to the  24 Ts'un c'os 'aay territory, Mrs. Bazil, you described  25 how your father cut trees on the territory.  Did the  26 white people, the Hayes and the Lapelles, did they cut  27 trees on the territory then?  28 A   No, just inside their lines where the -- the property  29 that they leased or bought, I don't know what, but  30 they all had fence around it, the property that they  31 have, and they cut the timber inside their line, not  32 on my father's territory.  33 Q   Okay.  So when you travelled this territory with your  34 father, was it mainly forest or was it mainly open at  35 that time?  36 A   It was all forest then.  37 Q   Okay.  When you went back there a few years ago was it  3 8 the same?  39 A   No.  40 Q   What's it like now in comparison?  41 A  All bare.  42 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  43 MR. MACKENZIE: Mr. Grant, when you said "a few years ago", were  44 you referring to the witness's reference to the visit  45 ten years ago to -- on the Sunday?  4 6 MR. GRANT:  47 Q   Well, let me ask you this.  Have you been on the 1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  11  Q  12  A  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  2 9 MR.  GRANT  30  31  32  33  34  35  3 6 MR.  GRANT  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  territory since that visit ten years ago that you  talked about?  We were there after there was a big fire one summer.  Uh-huh.  There was a big fire there.  Is this --  And I wanted to see how far the fire was, so my  daughter took me up there.  My husband and I, we went  through there again, and there was -- part of it was  burnt on my father's territory.  Okay.  Was this the fire known as the Swiss fire?  It was a big fire that went through quite a way --  quite a big area.  This was a few years ago?  Yeah.  Okay.  That's when the last time I was up there.  Okay.  Did you travel up there just recently?  No, that time that the fire -- after the fire, the  s ame s umme r.  Okay.  You haven't been up there this year?  No.  Okay.  Did -- you say the fire burned some of the  trees on your father's territory?  Yes.  Aside from where the fire burned, is there still  forest or is it mostly cut down now?  It's all cut down.  :   Okay.  I think this is an appropriate time to take  the lunch break.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCH RECESS)  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  Okay.  Well, I think we can go back on the record  then.  Okay.  This is a continuation of the commission  evidence of Mrs. Bazil and the witness is still under  oath.  Mrs. Bazil, you told us I believe this morning you  mentioned or yesterday about -- about the game warden  or about the trap line.  Now, you said something about  your father's territory.  Can you tell us what  happened about the registration of your father's  territory as a trap line territory?  Do you recall 1  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  44  45  Q  46  47  A  that happening and what your father said about it?  Well, that's when I said that he was quite concerned.  He was talking about it quite often, that the  territory got smaller the way they -- the game warden  give him the -- something like a registration or  something that where his territory is, where the  boundary was some cut off and they made it smaller  than it's supposed to be.  What did your father say about that?  Well, he was upset about it.  He says that they should  leave it the way it is, and they made it smaller.  Did that have any effect on where he trapped?  Well, he never -- he -- he stayed on the lines where  he had his trap lines, like where he set traps.  It  didn't affect him up the other way.  It's cut off on  the Houston side.  Okay.  That's the one side they cut a piece off.  Now, in Exhibit 4 you've referred to the four  houses -- campsites.  Did it affect any of those  campsites where it was cut off?  I don't think it did because he still went the same  place that he had before.  He still went to the same  cabins that he had when he set traps.  Okay.  So did he use the whole territory both before  and after this registration?  Yes.  Now, I'll just show you Exhibit 1.  Is there any area  there that you can see that was affected to show as an  example of -- that was logged --  Yes.  -- after your father's time?  Well, this -- this is when -- after -- this picture  was taken after my father has left there already then.  On the other side the river I see it's been cleared up  there.  I'm going to give you a red pen.  It was all heavy timber all along there.  Okay.  Can you -- can you just point for the record  and for the video where this is?  This is the area I'm talking about here.  It's by the  river.  It's a little hill there, and this all it's  clear.  I could see it's cleared up, and it was all  big timber like here all along here.  When you say "it was all big timber", was that when  you were growing up there?  Yes. 87  1 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  Could you just put a circle with a red pen  2 around that area?  You can go all the way around.  3 Okay.  It's marked with a red circle around it.  Can  4 you see that?  5 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  6 MR. GRANT:  7 Q   I'll just complete that line if you don't mind.  There  8 are some gaps in the line and I'm just completing --  9 there's some gaps in the line, and Miss Koenigsberg, I  10 was just doing that so you can see where the gaps are.  11 I'd like to refer to the affidavit again.  One of  12 the places you described as part of the boundary in  13 your affidavit is called -- and this is the two, four,  14 sixth line down on page 3, the first word, "Tseegis  15 det sel"?  16 A   Tseegis det sel?  Yes.  17 Q   Tseegis det sel.  What does that mean?  18 A   That means that's when there was all big timber along  19 that top of the hill coming from Houston going up to  20 Buck Flat.  There was all big timber along there and  21 then when C.N. went through they start cutting ties,  22 and they cut all the timber down.  And after they  23 going through there it was all bare, no timber left.  24 This is what it means.  Tseegis det sel, cut all the  25 big trees down.  26 Q   Do you know -- when was that that those trees were cut  2 7 down?  28 A   It must be when the train C.N. went through.  29 Q   This was when the railway was put through that area?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And who called it that?  Who gave it that name?  32 A  My father -- my father and my mother, they said that  33 they were coming back from Buck Flat.  They were  34 coming back to Houston, and the first time they seen  35 it was all bare and my mother's the one that said that  36 "The Europeans, they cut all the trees down.  Now,  37 it's bare."  38 MR. MACKENZIE: Just so that my note is correct, Mr. Grant, does  39 the name mean the condition before or after the trees  4 0 were cut down?  41 THE WITNESS:   After the trees were — oh, I'm sorry.  42 MR. GRANT:  43 Q   Okay.  You can go ahead and answer that.  44 A  Well, the name after the trees were cut down.  I just  45 describe it.  My mother said that word, and that's  46 what they name it after that.  47 MR. GRANT:   Can you translate that just for the record as well, 1 Mr. Holland?  Tseegis det sel.  2 THE INTERPRETER: Tseegis det sel is the timber in that specific  3 area coming down the hill has been cleared off by  4 logging or whatever.  5 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  That's what that name means?  6 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.  It's just that the timber has been cut  7 off.  8 MR. GRANT:  9 Q   Okay.  Thank you.  Who decides who can use the  10 territories such as -- for example, who decides who  11 can use this Ts'un c'os 'aay territory?  12 A   In the feast house.  13 Q   Okay.  That's where it is decided?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And who is the one that will announce that decision?  16 A  Well, the first they ask questions the person is  17 taking a name and taking the territory, probably his  18 uncle or somebody older than him, will talk about  19 what's going to happen.  And then the people that  20 seated, all the chiefs that seated, they the one  21 that -- each one get up and they discuss that and  22 saying that he's the right person to have that  23 territory, and they all agree, and then that's the --  24 that's the time the territory is gone to the person  25 that's standing in the middle of the floor and he's  26 responsible.  27 Q   Is this at the time of the funeral feast or a  28 headstone feast usually?  29 A   Headstone feast it's always done.  30 Q   I'd like to ask you about -- about something else and  31 that is trade.  Do you recall if your father was  32 involved in trading any of the materials he got on the  33 territory with other people's?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Can you describe that?  36 A  Well, if something, a gun or that, they need it and  37 they don't have it, and if another person has two,  38 then they will trade.  39 Q   What about furs or meat?  40 A   They -- they share the meat.  The same thing with  41 their food.  If other people has meat and they have no  42 smoked salmon, they will trade their meat with fish or  43 other food.  44 Q   And when you returned to Moricetown each year, did  45 your family bring goods back to Moricetown from the  46 territory?  47 A   Yes. 1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  And what did they do with those -- what kinds of  things did they bring back and what did they do with  them?  Smoked meat, all different kinds.  Uh-huh.  And that's what they use at the feast.  Uh-huh.  And some goes to the relatives.  Which relatives would they provide things for?  The -- the clan from the territory, like older people  that lives in reserve.  Like your grandmother?  Yes.  And also they trade seafood with the Gitksan  people.  That's the Gitksan people from Hazelton and west?  Yes.  When you say "they trade seafood", do you mean they  would get seafood from the Gitksan for --  Yes.  -- for meat?  Okay.  Has your -- I'm sorry, has the  Madeek, the Ts'un c'os 'aay territory, been damaged to  your knowledge?  Well, it's damaged after my father left it.  Okay.  And how is it damaged?  All logged off.  Do you know who logged it off?  Well, I don't know the contractors who did it, but  there's people that lives around there I guess.  I  don't know exactly the names.  Do you know if they were ever stopped by any  government officials from logging?  No.  Okay.  Aside from the logging, what else caused damage  to the Ts'un c'os 'aay territory?  Well, there's a lot of farmers up there now.  All the  land's been sold.  Farmers all the way up just about  the whole area.  And how does that damage it --  Because --  -- the territory?  The people that bought bought land along there they  got "No Trespassing" sign and the people own the  territory can't get off the highway.  When you say the people who "own the territory", who  are you referring to?  That was Gitdumden.  Seventeen.  You mean the people -- Gitdumden clan? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  90  Yes.  And the Madeek people?  Yes.  Has there been any other damage to the territory that  you -- there's the farming and there's the logging.  Is there other damage on the territory?  Well, along the rivers and lakes where their -- they  do the trapping for beavers, and there's nothing there  for the animals to eat, so there's nothing there.  So when you say "there's nothing there", you mean the  animals are gone?  Animals got nothing to eat there to live there for.  And why is that?  Well, whoever cleaned -- clear lands, they clean  everything up.  Okay.  It's because of the clearing then?  Yes.  Are most of the farms there along the river?  Yes.  Is there any other damage along there that you can  think of?  I guess that's about all I know.  Okay.  Now, you did describe that your father had  these fishing sites at Moricetown.  Are those fishing  sites damaged at all?  Yes.  And how are they damaged?  By blasting.  By blasting?  Yes.  And do you know who did the blasting?  The government did.  And what was that blasting for?  The fish ladder.  And how did that damage your father's fishing sites?  Well, they can't -- the -- wherever they set the traps  and where they gaff is all blasted off.  There's no  place to stand to put your gaff in.  And the fish they  go right in the middle where it's open for them.  They  go up the fish ladder.  So it had -- so what you're saying is it had two  effects.  It destroyed the gaffing site for where the  person could stand, and also it made the fish be able  to go up another way where they couldn't be caught?  Yes.  Is that right?  Yes. 91  1 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  Thank you, Mrs. Bazil.  Maybe we'll go off  2 the record for a few moments to switch around and  3 proceed to cross-examination.  4  5 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR AFTERNOON RECESS)  6  7 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  8  9 MR. GRANT:  10 Q   At the break before we switched over for  11 cross-examination I noted one thing I wanted to  12 correct on Exhibit number 2, which is the Madeek  13 genealogy dated November 17th, 1987.  14 Mrs. Bazil, you knew Mrs. Mary Joseph who married  15 Charlie Pete?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And they had a daughter Lillian Pete?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And did she marry Raymond Dennis?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Okay.  And their children, their last names were  22 Dennis?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Okay.  I would ask -- and which clan did Raymond  25 Dennis belong to?  26 A   Laksilyu.  27 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  I would ask, with the consent of counsel,  28 that that page 3 of Exhibit 2 can be corrected  29 accordingly as it was a transcription error and was  30 not an error from this witness herself.  It was in the  31 transcribing. Is that agreed?  32 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Yes, it's agreed by me.  33 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  Yes.  34 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  I've shown that correction from Ray Holland  35 to Ray Dennis and crossing out Tsayu under Ray Holland  36 and making it Laksilyu, and changing the last names of  37 the three children from Holland to Dennis.  And  38 subject to the reservation I asked of counsel at the  39 break, I finish my direct examination.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  That reservation you mentioned, as I understand  41 it, you wish to review a map which was appended to the  42 Madeek interrogatory and you want to reserve your  43 right to discuss that document with the witness, but  44 as I understand it, you won't be raising anything  45 related to that in your redirect unless we refer to it  46 in our cross-examination.  47 MR. GRANT:  That's correct.  And I — I just want the — the 92  1 agreement I understand is that I can speak to the  2 witness about a document even though she may still be  3 under cross-examination.  That's the point.  4 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, it is that document that you referred —  5 MR. GRANT:  That document.  That's right.  If other documents  6 come to my attention that I wish to speak to her  7 about, I will discuss it with counsel.  8 MR. MACKENZIE: Thank you.  9  10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACKENZIE:  11 Q   Mrs. Bazil, you're presently living in Terrace?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Okay.  And one year ago you married Mr. Verigin?  14 A  About a year ago.  Year ago next month.  15 Q   And do you own your home in Terrace?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Yes.  And whose name is that home registered in to  18 your knowledge?  19 A  My —  20 MR. GRANT:  I object to these questions on the grounds of  21 relevance.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  23 Q   Yes.  I note that the witness answered that her  24 husband owned that home in Terrace.  And how long have  25 you been living in Terrace, Mrs. Bazil?  26 A   Since 1966.  27 MR. GRANT:  I don't like to unnecessarily intervene, but the  28 question I objected to was who -- the question as to  2 9           who owned the home in which she is living.  That is  30 the question I objected to, not the question of where  31 she's living and how long she's lived there.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  33 Q   And before 1966 where was the -- where was your  34 residence?  35 A   Smithers.  36 Q   And was your -- you were previously married to Frank  37 Bazil; is that correct?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Yes.  And when did he pass on?  40 A   Sixty-eight.  41 Q   And while you were in Smithers did you own that home?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And in whose name was that house registered?  44 A  My husband.  45 Q   And how long had you lived in Smithers?  When did you  46 first come to Smithers?  47 A   From 1948 to '66. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  93  And what was the address of your house in Smithers?  There was no number or anything on the house, but it  was on Railroad Avenue just up here.  Is that Railroad Avenue?  Yes.  And before 1948 where did you live?  Houston.  You were living in Houston.  Was that the town of  Houston?  Yes.  And were you living there with your husband Frank  Bazil?  Yes.  And for how long had you lived there?  Well, I got married in '36 and then we been moving  around for about three, four years, then my husband  got a job on C.N. and we lived in Houston.  So would you say you lived in Houston from about 1940  to 1948?  Somewhere there.  And from 1936 to 1940 you lived with your husband  Frank Bazil in various locations?  Yes.  We been moving different with where he gets a  job, going to Prince Rupert fishing in summertime.  And you were at the Sunnyside Cannery there?  M.P. Cannery.  Did you work at the cannery as well as your husband?  Yes.  And then you said that your husband worked in a pole  camp; is that correct?  Yes, in wintertime.  And what is a pole camp?  Pole camp, that's where they make the poles.  He was  cutting poles down in the bush like a logger.  And where was that camp?  It was at -- there close by one place was Mosquito  Flat and a little ways this side is Beamont, a camp  across the river.  Both place he worked in about two,  three years' time.  And for whom was your husband working when he was  cutting poles at Mosquito Flat?  There was another people, contractors, was -- Big  Tommy was the first guy he worked for, and another  camp was Tommy Michell.  These two Tommys, one's  called Big Tommy because they're both Tommy Michell.  And one was Big Tommy and the other one was Little  Tommy.  That's who he worked for. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  94  And before 1936 of course you were not married; that's  correct?  Yes.  And you were -- were you living with your family?  With my father, yes.  My father and mother.  Now, Mrs. Bazil, before you got married did you have  an occupation other than assisting your father?  Yes, just with my father.  And from 1936 after you got married to 1940 when you  moved to Houston, did you have an occupation during  those years besides working at the cannery?  I worked in the restaurant as dishwasher for a short  period of time.  That's all.  And while you were living in Houston from 1940 to 1948  did you have an occupation then?  No, just a housewife.  Well, I know many people in this room would say that  that is a very onerous occupation, so I'm not going to  say it's not.  So we'll say you had an occupation from  then to 1948.  Then you moved to Smithers.  Did you  have an occupation when you were in Smithers?  Yes.  What were you doing there?  I work in the hospital part-time.  Which hospital was that?  Bulkley Valley District Hospital.  And how long did you work at the Bulkley Valley  District Hospital?  Maybe for two years.  And among your colleagues at the hospital were there  other Wet'suwet'en people working there?  Yes.  After you -- after those two years at the hospital,  did you go on to another occupation?  Yes.  What did you do then?  I work in a restaurant.  And where was that restaurant?  The one was down by the lake, Lake Kathlyn down here.  I worked for Freddie Watson -- not Fred Watson, I'm  sorry, Wilfred Watson.  Now, we're still talking about the time you were  living in Smithers; is that correct?  Yes.  And how long did you work at Mr. Watson's restaurant?  Probably a year.  And then did you have an occupation after that? 95  1 A   I worked at Hill Top Hotel as a chambermaid for about  2 a year and a half.  3 Q   And that's here in Smithers?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And what other occupations did you have before 1966  6 while you were living in Smithers?  7 A   I -- I changed my job to waitressing at North Star  8 Cafe.  9 Q   Yes?  10 A   I must have worked there about three years.  11 Q   Yes?  12 A   It's my last in Smithers.  13 Q   Yes.  Then in 1966 you moved to Terrace, and did you  14 move with your husband then Mr. Frank Bazil?  15 A   No.  We were separated.  16 Q   Did you obtain a divorce from your husband Frank  17 Bazil?  18 A   No.  19 MR. GRANT:  I object to that question.  It is not relevant.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  21 Q   And did you work in Terrace?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And what did you do there?  24 A  Waitressing.  25 Q   Now, when your husband was cutting poles at Mosquito  26 Flat and you were living at Beamont, which chief's  27 territory were you living on at that time?  28 A   I'm not sure.  I think that part there I can't answer  2 9 that.  I don't remember at all.  30 Q   Now, to your knowledge when your husband was cutting  31 poles, did he have occasion to speak to the chief on  32 the territory for permission?  33 A   No.  34 Q   You were working in the Bulkley Valley District  35 Hospital for two years.  Whose territory is that  36 hospital on?  37 A   It's Gitdumden territory.  38 Q   And that's your father's clan?  39 A   Yes.  4 0 Q   To your knowledge did the chiefs of Gitdumden clan  41 give permission for that hospital to be built on that  42 territory?  43 A   I can't answer that either.  44 Q   And when you were living in Smithers your husband  45 owned the home -- your home there.  Did he get  46 permission from the chief who owned this territory to  47 live there? 96  1 A   No.  Houston area was -- the territory was belonged to  2 my mother's uncle and the Indian people they --  3 everybody had houses around there. Nobody got  4 permission from anyone.  It was just everybody allowed  5 to build houses along there as a stopping place.  6 Q   Yes.  Now, speaking about your time in Smithers, you  7 were here from 1948 to 1966; correct?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And you had your home on Railroad Avenue?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Yes.  And did your husband get permission from the  12 chief of this territory to build his home on Railroad  13 Avenue?  14 A   No.  There was -- whole town of Smithers they selling  15 land and he just bought a land from another Indian  16 person that had bought the land, and he moved -- he  17 was on C.N. and he was transferred to Houston and he  18 was selling his house, so my husband bought it off  19 him.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:   I see.  Now, you have discussed with Mr. Grant  21 the genealogy that's Exhibit 1.  I'm putting it in  22 front of you.  23 MR. GRANT:  Exhibit 1 is in front of her.  24 MR. MACKENZIE: You have the genealogy in front of you, don't  25 you, and I take it that you received some assistance  26 in the preparation of this genealogy, Mrs. Bazil; is  27 that correct?  28 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  I do not want questions -- I do  29 not -- I will not allow the witness to answer  30 questions which invades the solicitor-client privilege  31 and that question may invade it.  I'm not suggesting  32 you can't go into that area, but if you do I want you  33 to rephrase the question so that you protect the  34 solicitor-client privilege because that's not  35 something I want her to answer.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  37 Q   Yes, I understand that.  Thank you.  Okay.  Did you  38 have assistance in preparing this genealogy, Mrs.  39 Bazil?  40 A   I'll have interpreter for that.  I don't understand.  41 Yes.  42 Q   And you told Mr. Grant that you had reviewed this  43 genealogy, Exhibit 1?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And you said to Mr. Grant that as far as you were  46 concerned it was correct?  47 A   Yes. 97  1 MR. GRANT:  With the corrections that I had made on it.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  3 Q   And Mr. Grant made some corrections to Exhibit 1 when  4 it was presented here and you were here?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And do you recall the -- you said that you thought  7 that Hazel Williams and your grandmother Susan were  8 cousins?  9 A   That's how I understood it.  10 Q   Yes.  And is that what you understand now?  11 A   Yes.  12 MR. GRANT:  That's one of the corrections alluded to in this  13 evidence.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  15 Q   Yes.  And Mr. Grant thought they were sisters, do you  16 recall that?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   Yes.  And would you agree with me if I suggested to  19 you that the genealogy shows that those — Hazel  20 Williams and your grandmother Susan are sisters?  The  21 genealogy shows that, do you understand that?  22 A   I'll have interpreter for that again, please?  23 THE INTERPRETER: What were the names again?  24 MR. MACKENZIE: Hazel Williams and your grandmother Susan are  25 shown as sisters on the genealogy?  26 MR. GRANT:  Before the witness answers, I think she should have  27 an opportunity to look at that part of the genealogy  28 and you should direct her to it, to what you're  29 referring.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  31 Q   I agree, and I'm pleased to do that.  I thought she  32 might understand that before we went to that extent of  33 showing it, but I don't mind doing that of course.  34 Okay.  Now, for the record, I'm referring the  35 witness to page 2 and page 5, and if those two pages  36 are put together can you see -- will you agree with me  37 that Hazel Williams and your grandmother Susan are  38 shown as sisters?  39 A   They -- I understood that they're -- they're cousins.  40 I didn't know whether they were sisters or not.  41 Q   So will you agree with me, Mrs. Bazil, that if the  42 genealogy shows that they are sisters it is incorrect?  43 A   I'll have the interpreter for that, please?  I'm not  44 entirely sure at all.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:   Now, referring to the genealogy again, Mrs.  46 Bazil, this is the genealogy, Exhibit 1.  You see that  47 the name Khay Lah is not included in the genealogy; is 1 that correct?  2 MR. GRANT:  Are you referring to a specific place or anywhere in  3 it?  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q   I'm referring to the entire genealogy?  6 A   I don't understand.  I'll have interpreter for that  7 too, please?  8 THE INTERPRETER:  Can you ask that question again, please?  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  10 Q   Yes.  I'm referring to the genealogy, Exhibit 1.  11 Would you agree with me that the name Khay Lah is not  12 included in the genealogy?  13 A   No.  14 Q   And so your answer is no, it is not included in the  15 genealogy?  16 A   No.  Different house.  17 Q   Do I understand you to say that Khay Lah is not in the  18 House of Wah tah kwets?  19 A   No.  20 Q   Yes.  You're saying that Khay Lah is in another house;  21 is that correct?  22 A   I'm not sure.  That's too far back to remember.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:   Your answer to my earlier questions is a little  24 difficult to understand on the record and that's why  25 I'm trying to rephrase them, so --  26 MR. GRANT:  The questions are a little difficult to answer as  27 you phrase them I would say.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  Oh, thank you.  29 MR. GRANT:  So maybe you can rephrase them so that a yes or no  30 is clear.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  32 Q   Yes.  Well, that's the problem.  33 It is correct to say that the name Khay Lah is not  34 held in the House of Wah tah kwets?  35 A   I'm sure it's not.  36 Q   Okay.  Do you know which house Khay Lah is held in?  37 A   I can't remember the name of the house right now.  38 Q   And continuing to refer to the genealogy Exhibit 1, I  39 now draw your attention to page 1 and the name  40 Skokumwasaas.  That is a name in the House of Wah tah  41 kwets; correct?  42 A   No.  43 Q   Which house is Skokumwasaas held in?  44 A   I think it's House of many eyes.  45 Q   Is that Hagwilnegh?  46 A   Yes.  47 MR. MACKENZIE:   So the genealogy is incorrect where it says 99  1 Skokumwasaas; is that correct?  2 MR. GRANT:  Wait, the genealogy says "Nora Tait", and under her  3 name "Skokumwasaas", so your question can't be  4 answered as it's asked.  That -- that name under the  5 name Nora Tait may mean that she holds it, it may mean  6 it's in the house, it may mean all of those things,  7 but I think you should break down your question when  8 you say the genealogy isn't correct.  You should ask  9 her specifically what you're referring to.  I think  10 you, you know, should refer to Nora Tait whose name  11 it's under.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  13 Q   Okay.  Referring to page 1 in Exhibit 1, the  14 genealogy, Nora Tait is shown as a member of the House  15 of Wah tah kwets; is that correct?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Yes.  And was Nora Tait's name Skokumwasaas?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And how is it that Nora Tait, being a member of the  20 House of Wah tah kwet, held the name Skokumwasaas?  21 A   This happen the last person that held that name that  22 was Wah tah kwets, the woman from Wah tah kwets'  23 House, from Hagwilnegh's House, was this girl Nora  24 Tait.  She helped this man quite a bit, helping him  25 with giving him a ride and shopping for them because  26 they were pretty old, and she did a lot of things for  27 them personally.  This is how the old Skokumwasaas  28 give the name to Nora Tait, Nora Vantunen now.  That's  29 how it went to Wah tah kwets' House.  30 Q   Now, when Nora Tait dies will the name Skokumwasaas  31 return to Hagwilnegh?  32 A   It's supposed to, but it hasn't finished yet.  The  33 girl died not too long ago and they haven't finished  34 the feast yet and they haven't talked about the name  35 yet.  It's just sitting there now, as far as I know.  36 Q   Now, did Heather Harris assist you in preparing this  37 genealogy?  38 A   Say that again?  39 Q   I'm going to rephrase that question, and I asked you  40 this before.  Who assisted you in preparing that  41 genealogy?  42 A   I'll have interpreter, please.  43 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  Before she answers the question,  44 again I object to questions that may lead to  45 solicitor-client privilege and I want you to exclude  46 that option --  47 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 100  1 MR. GRANT:  -- from the answer in your question, otherwise I  2 don't want her to answer.  3 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, I understand.  Mrs. Bazil, I don't want you  4 at this time to tell me what was said to you, all I  5 want to know is the name of the person who helped you  6 prepare the genealogy, or persons.  7 MR. GRANT:  When you say -- can you explain to her what you mean  8 by helped prepare it?  What are you talking about?  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  10 Q   Who did you discuss the genealogy with?  11 A   I'll have interpreter, please.  Yes.  12 Q   And what was the name of that person who helped you?  13 A   One of them was Victor Jim.  14 Q   Who else helped you?  15 A   I can't remember her name.  There was a lady worked on  16 it.  17 Q   And how would you describe that lady, was she a white  18 lady?  19 A   Yeah, she worked on a lot of these.  20 Q   And we've been referring to Exhibit 1 in this  21 commission and now I'm placing before you another  22 document which I'm instructed is the version of the  23 genealogy received by the defendants a couple of weeks  24 ago.  I'm placing that in front of you and if you  25 look -- if you look at the bottom of the document  26 which I've just handed to you on page 1 you'll see  27 that under Jerry Tait and Lorraine Tait there are  28 three children shown, Sharon, Angela, and Spencer.  Do  29 you see that on page 1?  30 A   I'll ask the interpreter to explain to me, please?  31 MR. MACKENZIE:   Okay.  I note for the record that Mrs. Bazil is  32 now discussing something at length with Mr. Holland,  33 and perhaps Mr. Holland could indicate to us what this  34 discussion is?  35 MR. GRANT:  He was just going to translate it.  36 MR. MACKENZIE: Thank you.  37 THE INTERPRETER: As a translator, I explain the situation,  38 children being on here.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  And now you're referring to the document I  40 placed before Mrs. Bazil?  41 THE INTERPRETER:   Yes.  And her answer was this:  Lorraine Tait  42 and her children are of the G'e neegh la yex House and  43 Jerry Tait and Lorraine Tait are of the same clan.  44 The children are of a different house.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  46 Q   So -- yes.  So Lorraine Tait's children belong to  47 another house? 101  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Yes.  3 A   Only Jerry's right here.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:   I understand Jerry's, right.  Now, the document  5 that I've placed before you which shows the Tait  6 children I would like to have that marked as an  7 exhibit for identification so that -- with the  8 possibility of having it proved so that we know what  9 we're speaking of.  10 Now, Mr. Grant, following your suggestion, though,  11 we'll mark it Exhibit 6 for identification.  12  13 (EXHIBIT 6 FOR IDENTIFICATION: Genealogy #2, entitled  14 "Kwen Beegh Yex - House beside the Fire. Wah tah  15 kwets - Laksilyu")  16  17 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  I think that's properly an exhibit for  18 identification.  The witness hasn't identified the  19 exhibit at all if she's ever seen it before.  What are  20 you going to call that for the record since we have  21 two?  22 MR. MACKENZIE: Thank you.  Yes.  Now, I'm going to describe our  23 Exhibit 6 for identification, and I'm going to call it  24 genealogy number two I received -- I received prior to  25 the present commission.  26 MR. GRANT:  It was delivered 14 days prior to the commencement  27 of this commission.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  29 Q   Now, I'm referring to Exhibit 6 for identification,  30 Mrs. Bazil.  Have you seen that document before, the  31 one with Jerry Tait's children on it?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Yes.  And under what circumstances did you see that  34 document, Exhibit 6 for identification?  35 A  When I looked through it.  36 Q   I see.  You reviewed it prior to this commission; is  37 that correct?  38 A   Yes.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:   Yes.  And at that time you noted that some  40 corrections had to be made to it; is that correct?  41 MR. GRANT:  Don't — I object.  You're moving into an area of  42 solicitor-client privilege.  43 MR. MACKENZIE: Sorry.  Well, I'm sorry, Mr. Grant, I won't go  44 into areas of solicitor-client privilege, but may I  45 ask you whether you include in that comments and  46 conclusions of the witness reached as a result of  47 examination of this document, or do you mean only 102  1 information given by solicitors to the witness or  2 instructions given by the witness to solicitors?  3 MR. GRANT:  No, I'm talking about instructions from the witness  4 to legal counsel.  5 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  6 MR. GRANT:  And I don't believe you can go into that.  You  7 haven't -- you haven't established through the  8 evidence the circumstances under which she looked at  9 that document.  10 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  11 MR. GRANT:  But I can inform you that I was the person present  12 and I was her counsel and that's why I'm objecting,  13 and I'm not trying to block you from what you want to  14 pursue, I'm only saying I don't want you to move into  15 that realm of instructions to the witness from legal  16 counsel.  17 MR. MACKENZIE: I understand.  18 MR. GRANT:  I think you can achieve your objectives without  19 doing that.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  21 Q   Yes.  And you reviewed this document, Exhibit 6 for  22 identification, with Mr. Grant; is that correct?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And when you reviewed the exhibit, you concluded that  25 there were certain changes that had to be made?  26 A  Well, they all Laksilyu.  We all sit on the same side  27 of the wall, but only house is different.  28 Q   Yes.  So you concluded that there were certain changes  2 9 that had to be made in the document Exhibit 6 for  30 identification?  31 A   Yes.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:   Mr. Grant, that's convenient for me to conclude  33 today at that point.  34 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  You're moving into another area?  35 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, another area apart from this particular  3 6 document.  37 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  38  39 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO NOVEMBER 25, 1987)  40  41 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  42 a true and accurate transcript of the  43 proceedings herein transcribed to the  44 best of my skill and ability.  45  46  47 Tanita S. French 103  1 Official Reporter  2  3 November 25, 1987  4 Smithers, B.C.  5  6 LUCY BAZIL, Witness, Previously sworn;  7 GEORGE HOLLAND, Interpreter, Previously sworn;  8  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  This is November 25 and we're continuing with  10 the cross-examination of Mrs. Lucy Bazil, and Mr.  11 Grant, you had some comments you wished to make?  12 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  Yesterday I put on the record that there was  13 an agreement that I could refer Mrs. Bazil in cross --  14 during her cross-examination to a map.  I just want to  15 advise you that I have not done so, so that it is not  16 left ambiguous as to whether I had that discussion  17 with her or not.  So I have not -- I've not done so  18 and I don't intend to -- to speak to her about the  19 map.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you.  Mrs. Bazil, I'm placing before you  21 Exhibit 6 for identification, the genealogy the  22 defendants received about November 7th this year, and  23 I now wish to have that exhibit noted as an exhibit as  24 proven by you.  You indicated yesterday that you had  25 seen that genealogy; is that correct?  26 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  I'd just ask that the witness -- you  27 can examine that and compare it with, if you wish,  28 Exhibit 1 to be sure, because on the quick look they  29 look the same, to be sure that you've actually seen  30 Exhibit 6 before yesterday.  And you should look  31 through all the pages, Mrs. Bazil, before you answer  32 him.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  I understood, Mr. Grant, that Mrs. Bazil — that  34 was her testimony yesterday.  35 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  She had looked at the first page of it only  36 when she answered it and I think she should have an  37 opportunity to look at the whole thing.  I think it's  38 only fair to advise her that those two documents are  39 different in some respects.  That's all.  40 THE WITNESS:   I believe I didn't see this one.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  42 Q   You're saying you haven't seen Exhibit 6?  43 A   Yes.  Why do you say that?  This one here.  You're referring to Exhibit 6?  He's deceased and here he is -- he's not deceased  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A 104  1 here.  2 Q   Okay.  You are referring now to page 6 of Exhibit 6  3 and you're pointing to Tap Halonen?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And on Exhibit 6, page 6, Tap Halonen is shown as  6 still living; is that correct?  I mean it's shown as  7 he's still living?  8 A   Yes, he's still alive.  9 Q   But in fact he's dead?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   And you made that correction to the --  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   -- new genealogy, Exhibit 1, didn't you?  14 A   Yes.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:   Thank you.  Now, I'm showing you another  16 genealogy which, I'm instructed, the defendants  17 received in June 1987 appears to be a genealogy of the  18 House of Wah tah kwets.  I'm placing it before you.  19 I'm handing it to Mr. Grant first.  20 MR. GRANT:  I don't have a copy of this one with me and I will  21 ask for you to provide me with a copy of this today so  22 that I can review it.  23 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, of course, Mr. Grant.  24 MR. GRANT:  And this document, as I recall, this was not  25 tendered as an exhibit or hasn't been introduced at  26 the trial; is that right?  27 MR. MACKENZIE: That's correct.  28 MR. GRANT:  But it was delivered to you sometime in June?  29 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  As I understand that in preparation for  30 Madeline Alfred's testimony.  31 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm placing that genealogy befoe you now, Mrs.  33 Bazil.  Please look at that and tell me whether you've  34 seen that genealogy?  Yes.  Mr. Holland is assisting  35 you there.  36 THE INTERPRETER: Got to get the kinks out of it first.  37 THE WITNESS:   I believe I didn't see this either.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:   Yes.  I'd like to mark that genealogy as  39 Exhibit 7 for identification following Mr. Grant's  40 suggestion.  41 MR. GRANT:  Well — well, if it's for identification I guess  42 it's all right.  There's no way that it is proved  43 because this witness says she hasn't seen it before.  44 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, I agree.  45  46 (EXHIBIT 7 FOR IDENTIFICATION: Handwritten genealogy  47 of Wah Tah Kwets, Kwen Beegh Yex) 105  1  2 MR. GRANT:  I suggest that that seems to be more handwritten and  3 that should be marked as a draft genealogy of Wah tah  4 kwets delivered in June of 1987.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  6 Q   Yes.  I just note that there doesn't appear to be an  7 indication as to a draft genealogy, but I agree with  8 Mr. Grant that it does appear to be handwritten.  9 Now, Mrs. Bazil, I want to refer you to Exhibit 1  10 which is the genealogy that you've identified here.  11 You said yesterday that Victor Jim assisted you in  12 preparing that.  You recall that?  13 A  When they were working on it he give me — he asked me  14 a few questions if they were right or wrong about two  15 or three times.  He want to make sure it was right or  16 wrong.  That's how he helped me.  17 Q   Did he come down to visit you in Terrace?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And you said that you also spoke to a white lady about  20 that.  Do you recall doing that?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And —  23 A   She's the one that worked on it.  I can't remember her  2 4 name.  25 Q   Is her name Antonia Mills?  26 A   I think it's Tonia.  27 Q   You think that's her name?  28 A   Yes.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:   And, as I understand it, Victor Jim and Antonia  30 Mills prepared the draft genealogy and then brought it  31 to you to discuss it; is that correct?  32 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  Which genealogy are you referring  33 to?  You've now got three charts.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  35 Q   Thank you very much.  As I understand it, Victor Jim  36 and Antonia Mills prepared the genealogy, Exhibit 1,  37 and brought it to you to discuss it; is that correct?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   When did you first see that genealogy, Exhibit 1?  40 A   It was last trip I was up here, can't remember what  41 month.  Somewhere in July.  42 Q   July 1987?  43 A   Yes, somewhere there.  I can't remember exact month.  44 Q   Now, when you came to Smithers in July 1987, did you  45 see a version of the genealogy, Exhibit 1, that was  46 handwritten?  47 A   No, I don't think I did. I seen it the way it is. 106  1 Q   I see.  You saw the typed out --  2 A   Yes.  3 MR. GRANT:  That is handwritten there.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q   I note that Exhibit 1 is handwritten.  Did you see a  6 genealogy with those dark titles on it, dark letters,  7 is that what you recall?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And I'm referring to the dark titles on Exhibit 1 now.  10 Now, referring you to Exhibit 1, page 1, and  11 Exhibit 7 for identification, page 1, and Exhibit 6  12 for identification, page 1, now could you look at  13 Exhibit 7, page 1, please?  You have it there before  14 you?  15 A   Page 7?  16 MR. MACKENZIE:   No.  Exhibit 7, page 1, and you see "Lorraine  17 Tait" at the bottom of that page?  18 MR. GRANT:  I think you better point it out to her.  I can't see  19 it.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  21 Q   Looking at -- it might be easier to look at Exhibit 6,  22 page 1, which is this one right here I'm handing to  23 you, and you see at the bottom of page 1 "Lorraine  24 Tait" is noted with her children "Sharon" and  2 5 "Angela"?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Yes.  That's on Exhibit 6, page 1, you're looking at;  28 correct?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Yes.  And that is not on Exhibit 7, page 1, is it?  31 That's the first one you looked at?  32 A   Yes.  It's not on there.  33 MR. GRANT:  Well, can you point out where Lorraine Tait is on  34 there?  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  Can you see Lorraine Tait on page 1 of Exhibit  36 7?  She should be married to Jerry Tait; correct?  37 MR. GRANT:  Well, maybe you could point it out to her.  I don't  38 see Lorraine Tait on page 1 of Exhibit 7.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  40 Q   That's right.  I'm showing you page 1, Exhibit 7, and  41 at the bottom there is "Jerry Tait"; correct?  42 A   I see Jerry Tait, yes.  43 Q   Yes.  But Lorraine Tait is not shown on there is she?  44 A   No.  45 Q   No.  And her children Sharon, Angela and Spencer are  46 not shown on there are they?  47 A   No. 107  No.  But they are shown on Exhibit 6, aren't they,  page 1?  Yes.  Yes.  And then on Exhibit 1, which is in front of you, all  that we have are Jerry Tait and Lorraine Tait;  correct?  Yes.  Yes.  So on Exhibit 1 at page 1 the children Sharon  Tait, Angela Tait and Spencer Tait are not shown; is  that correct?  No.  That is correct?  No.  I mean it's correct that they're not shown?  They're not shown there.  Yes.  Now, Mrs. Bazil, your daughter Betty Ann married  Tap Halonen didn't she?  Yes.  And they had a daughter Janet; correct?  Yes.  And then Janet had two sons Jason and Aaron; correct?  Yes.  And when were Jason and Aaron born?  The oldest's about three years old, the young one's  about two years old.  And Jason and Aaron are your great-grandsons aren't  they?  Yes.  Now, I'm referring you to Exhibit 7, page 3, and I'm  pointing to you that Mark Halonen and Janet Summerfeld  are shown on that page; correct?  Yes.  Yes.  But Janet's children are not shown on that page  are they, page 3?  No.  36 MR. GRANT:  This is the exhibit which the witness indicated  37 she'd never seen before today.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Thank you, Mr. Grant.  I think that's  39 clear.  40 MR. GRANT:  Just to be sure since we're having so many  41 genealogies.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  43 Q   Yes.  I was referring to Exhibit 7 for identification.  44 So, Mrs. Bazil, there are -- there appear to be  45 differences between these genealogies; is that  46 correct?  47 A   There is some difference.  Yes.  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A 1 MR.  GRA1  2 MR.  MAC]  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  108  :  Between the charts you mean?  >JZIE:  Yes.  I'm sorry, between the charts.  Now, you had a daughter Lillian Bazil also didn't  you Mrs. Bazil?  Yes.  And Lillian had two girls, Tommy and Terry?  Tammy.  Tammy and Terry; correct?  Yes.  They're your grand-daughters?  Yes.  Yes.  And Lillian married Dean Granley?  Yes.  Yes.  Now, referring you to Exhibit 7 for  identification, page 3, and you see that Lillian Bazil  is shown on that page 3?  Yes.  But her children are not shown are they?  No.  When were her children born?  They are -- the older one is coming to 18 and the  other one's 14, and she just had a child last month.  That is one of the -- Tammy or Terry had a child?  No, herself had another child.  Oh, Lillian had another child?  Yes.  Thank you.  Do you know Dominque or did you know  Dominique West?  Yes.  What clan was he in?  Dominique West was Gitdumden.  Gitdumden.  And what house was he in?  I can't remember that.  Where did he live?  He used to live in Babine.  And is he in the House of Wah tah kwets?  No.  No?  He's Gitdumden's.  I don't know the house he belong.  Do you know Frank Patrick?  Yes.  And he lives where?  I believe he live in Smithers now.  In Smithers now.  Where did he live before?  Babine.  Babine.  And he's a member of the House of Wah tah 109  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  4 4 MR.  GRANT  45  4 6 MR.  macke:  4 7 MR.  GRANT  Frank Patrick's chief's name?  Wah tah kwets.  kwets?  Yes.  Yes.  And what is his clan?  He's the same as mine.  And is he a member of the Babine band?  I can't tell you that.  I don't know now.  Does he -- he speaks the same language as you doesn't  he?  Yes.  Yes.  And what is  I understand he's  Wah tah kwets?  Yes.  Now, is it your understanding that all members of the  House of Wah tah kwets claim an interest in the  territories of Wah tah kwets?  Yes.  So do you understand that Frank Patrick also claims an  interest in Wah tah kwets' territories?  He never asked me.  I see.  I never talked to him.  I know him as a person and he  is in our house, but I haven't spoke with him.  Were you present at the April 1986 All Clans Feast at  Moricetown?  Yes.  And was Frank Patrick there to your recollection?  I can't remember if he was there or not.  Do you recall that Frank Patrick arranged the seating  at that feast?  I don't remember that either.  And do you know, or did you know, George Joseph?  Yes.  Was he a member of the house of Wah tah kwets?  He's my uncle, my mother's brother.  And he had a trap line at McDonnell Lake?  Yes.  And he lives at Burns Lake?  Yes.  Or he lived at Burns Lake?  He was married up there.  Yes.  And he was a member of the Babine band?  For a while he was.  :  Just -- I believe there's been rulings in terms of  band membership that it's not relevant --  JZIE: I'm sorry --  :  -- as I recall. 110  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  — Mr. Grant — well, I'm sorry, I don't mean to  2 interrupt you.  Go ahead.  3 MR. GRANT:  I believe there were rulings at trial as to band  4 membership not being relevant.  There certainly were  5 rulings on the interrogatories that they were not  6 relevant.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, perhaps I could assist you.  There was a  8 long line of questions, as you recall, of -- was it  9 Mary Johnson, who lives at Hazelton, and there were  10 several questions, as you recall, about her living on  11 the reserve and participating in the band council  12 elections, and questions about the reserve.  Do you  13 recall that?  14 MR. GRANT:  About where she was living and her involvement with  15 the reserve?  16 MR. MACKENZIE: And her band membership and her number, do you  17 recall that?  18 MR. GRANT:  I don't recall that, no, but I will just reserve —  19 MR. MACKENZIE: Fine.  20 MR. GRANT:  I will note the objection on relevance.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  That's a good way to do it if you object,  22 and then you can argue that.  23 MR. GRANT:  I'm not going to -- I'm not going to prevent you  24 from asking the question, but I want to put you on  25 notice for relevancy, and the reason I do that is that  26 depending on the extent of the questioning in areas  27 which I think are not relevant, we may have to deal  28 with this before further commissions because I don't  29 want the witness to clarify or not get into larger  30 irrelevant areas, but I'm just noting the objection  31 for now.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you.  33 MR. GRANT:  Just if I may say, Mrs. Bazil, if I speak up even if  34 you just wait until I'm through, you don't have to  35 answer until Mr. Mackenzie and I are through.  I just  36 want her to understand the procedure.  Can I ask you  37 was it Mr. George Joseph you were asking about?  38 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  39 MR. GRANT:  What band — he was a member of the Babine band?  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  41 Q   Babine band.  Yes.  42 Now, we were talking about George Joseph and he  43 had a trap line at McDonnell Lake as you said?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   Yes.  And that's in Wah tah kwets' territory?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Yes.  Now, we talked also about Frank Patrick, and Ill  1 what did you say his chief's name was?  2 A  Wah tah kwets.  3 Q   Wah tah kwets.  And what is John Namox's chief's name?  4 A  Wah tah kwets.  5 Q   Now, how is it that they both have the same chief's  6 name?  7 A  Well, Frank Patrick, he's from the Babine band, so  8 they hold the name up there too and so is Moricetown  9 reserve, so he's Babine Wah tah kwets and John Namox  10 is Moricetown Wah tah kwets, but when Wah tah kwets is  11 here they both sit in the same wall.  12 Q   I see.  They sit together?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And they claim an interest in the Wah tah kwets'  15 territories, for example, at McDonnell Lake?  16 A   Like I said, at that part I never talked to him about  17 it.  18 Q   Yes.  Now, what is the Wet'suwet'en word for house?  19 A  Wet'suwet'en?  20 Q   Yes.  21 A  Wet'suwet'en means a lower part of the area, kind  22 of -- "Wet'su" means little bit bottom part.  23 Oh, yes, I'm sorry.  24 A   But the area in Moricetown is the bottom part of  25 Wet'suwet'en.  That's where it starts from there to go  26 up the line.  That's Wet'suwet'en.  That's where it  27 starts from is the bottom part of the country.  28 MR. GRANT:  Maybe you could ask the translator to ask that  29 question.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  31 MR. GRANT:  I think she misunderstood the question.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  33 Q   Yes.  And I think now I'll ask that question again,  34 and what I'd like to know is the term that the  35 Wet'suwet'en people use for the word "house".  Is  36 there a term?  37 A   You mean the house for each trap?  38 Q   No.  You were the House of Wah tah kwets; correct?  39 A   Yes.  4 0 Q   And what is the Wet'suwet'en name for the term  41 "house"?  42 A   I just can't understand.  I'll ask the interpreter for  43 that.  44 Q   Yes.  Thank you.  45 A  A long time ago each -- each house in the clan had a  46 long house and the family in that house like ourselves  47 was called Kwen beegh Yex. 112  So that's the name of your house?  Yes.  Kwen beegh Yex.  That means "House beside the Fire" does it?  Yes.  Is there a Wet'suwet'en name for the word "clan"?  Iidagh.  Can we have a spelling on that, please?  Iidagh.  Iidagh.  9 MR. MITCHELL: Iidagh. Iidagh, I-i-d-a-g-h.  >JZIE:  And is it true to say that within a clan there are  several houses?  Yes.  You are the Laksilyu Clan; correct?  Yes.  And in the Laksilyu Clan what are the houses?  Kwen beegh yex.  That's one.  Is there another one?  G'e neegh la yex.  And is there another one?  Tse k'al k'a yex.  And the name Wah tah kwets is the chief's name; is  that correct?  Yes.  And the chief's name sometimes is not the same as the  house name; is that correct?  Yes.  So Chief Wah tah kwets is the chief of the House of  Kwen beegh Yex?  Yes.  Now, you testified that when you were 12 you spent two  years at the residential school at Le Jac; correct?  Yes.  And you also said that your uncle Jack Joseph was the  church chief; is that correct?  Yes.  Yes.  He was the church chief at Moricetown?  Yes.  And do you know that Mooseskin Johnny was also a  church chief at Moricetown?  After him.  Yes.  What was your uncle Jack Joseph -- what were  your uncle Jack Joseph's duties as a church chief?  He looks after the people that -- he looks after the  church when Minister comes, he looks after that, and  he looks after the people.  And he was a member of the church?  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9 MR.  MIT<  10 MR.  MAC]  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  46  47  Q 113  1 A Yes.  2 Q He was baptized?  3 A Yes.  4 Q He was a member of the Roman Catholic Church?  5 A Yes.  6 Q And Mooseskin Johnny was also a member of the Roman  7 Catholic Church?  8 A Before him yes, he was.  9 Q Yes.  Mooseskin Johnny came before Jack Joseph?  10 A Yes.  When he died was when my uncle was put in.  11 Q Is the church chief an important person in Moricetown?  12 A Yes.  13 Q And are you a member of a church?  14 A Yes.  15 Q Yes.  Are you a member of the Roman Catholic Church?  16 A Yes.  17 Q And you attend church?  18 A Yes.  19 Q Regularly?  2 0 A Well, when we there.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:   Yes.  You attend church in Terrace?  22 MR. GRANT:  I object on the basis of relevance.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  24 Q Did you attend church in Smithers when you were living  25 in Smithers?  26 A Yes, I did.  27 Q You testified that when you were on the territory you  28 used to go up to Houston each Christmas; is that  29 correct?  30 A Yes.  31 Q Yes.  And did you celebrate Christmas?  32 A Not really.  There was not much to celebrate those  33 days.  34 Q Yes?  35 A Like today.  36 Q Yes?  37 A They believe in -- they believe in Christ was born and  38 the night they want to go to church if there is church  39 service.  If not, they'll say prayers and then next  40 day they have little dinner.  41 Q Yes?  42 A We don't receive gifts like they do today.  43 Q Oh, I see.  44 A We have treats, a little bit of candies and apples,  45 orange, and that was our treat.  46 Q Now, I understand -- did you want to stop now or did  47 you want to wait until -- okay.  You're going to let 1  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  114  me know when it's time.  I'm speaking to the camera  man now.  Mrs. Bazil, you testified that you married Frank  Bazil in 1936; is that correct?  Yes.  And did you marry in the Roman Catholic Church?  Yes.  Did Mr. Bazil -- did Frank obtain a marriage licence  do you know?  Yes.  And one year ago you married Dan Verigin.  Did you get  married in the church?  No.  Did you get a marriage licence?  Yes.  Do you drive a car, Mrs. Bazil?  Yes.  Yes.  You have a driver's licence?  Yes.  And you drove up here from Terrace for the commission  evidence today?  Yes.  Yes.  You came along Highway 16?  Yes.  When you lived with Frank Bazil in Smithers you lived  on Railroad Avenue; correct?  Yes.  Yes.  And you had a home there?  Yes.  Yes.  And you paid property taxes for that home?  Yes.  And you paid income taxes for the money that you  received when you were working?  Yes.  Yes.  And do you receive a pension now from the  government?  Yes.  Yes.  Did you vote in the last provincial election,  Mrs. Bazil?  I wasn't at home at the time. I didn't.  Have you voted in a provincial election?  No.  Have you voted in a municipal election?  Not this last one.  Have you voted in any municipal election?  I used to, but not lately.  I see. 115  1 A   I didn't -- this last one I didn't.  2 Q   I understand.  You voted when you were in Smithers?  3 A   I did in Terrace too, but just lately I didn't.  4 Q   I understand.  Okay.  Now, you had 15 children, didn't  5 you, Mrs. Bazil?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And you testified that several of your children went  8 to school?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Yes.  And when you were in Smithers they went to  11 school in Smithers?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Did any of your children go on to university?  14 A   No.  15 Q   You also mentioned that you had had some -- attended  16 some conventions in Vancouver and Victoria; is that  17 correct?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Yes.  And you said you were with the non-status  20 association?  21 A   Yes.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:   What is the full name of that association?  2 3 MR. GRANT:  Now?  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  25 Q   Now?  26 A   They call it Native -- United Native Nation.  27 Q   How long have you been a member of that association?  28 A   Ever since 1970 I think.  29 Q   Do you know other Wet'suwet'en people who are members  30 of that association?  31 A   Yes.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:   And what are the objectives of that  33 association?  34 MR. GRANT:  I might ask what relevance that is to the  35 proceedings here?  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  Do you wish to object to that, Mr. Grant?  37 MR. GRANT:  I think that you may clarify the relevance, but I'm  38 objecting to it because now you're getting into the  39 objectives of an association of which she's a member.  40 I'm not objecting to you asking if she's a member, but  41 you're getting into the objectives of the association  42 which is not a party to this action.  I want to know  43 what the relevance is before I agree that she can  44 answer the question.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  Okay.  I'll explain what I consider the  46 relevance to be.  I think that that association may  47 represent a different political context than the 116  1 context in which the people in this litigation are  2 conducting their -- forwarding their claims, and so I  3 think it's relevant to show that -- other activities  4 which these people are engaging, political activities.  5 MR. GRANT:  So if she said that she was a member of the Liberal  6 party of Canada, you would then ask what the  7 objectives of the Liberal party of Canada were?  8 MR. MACKENZIE: No, I don't think so.  I think that this is an  9 Indian association and it has aims related to the  10 Indian people in British Columbia, and that's why I  11 think it's relevant to this litigation.  12 And we have to stop now, Mr. Grant, to change the  13 tape.  14 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  We'll go off the record for a moment.  15  16 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A SHORT RECESS)  17  18 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  19  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  This is tape number 4.  It's a continuation of  21 Mrs. Lucy Bazil's commission.  We're  22 cross-examining -- I'm cross-examining Lucy Bazil and  23 Mr. Grant has some comments he wishes to make.  24 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  Since — during the break Mrs. Madeline Alfred  25 and Mrs. Mary Jim have come to sit in on the  26 commission evidence and they are sitting with Mrs.  27 Bazil.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  29 Q   Mrs. Bazil, is Mary Jim related to you?  30 A  My sister-in-law.  31 Q   Yes.  And she's Peter Jim's wife?  32 A  Wife, yes.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:   Now, before we broke I'd asked you a  34 question -- I asked you a question about the United  35 Native Nation's Association and I asked what are the  36 objectives of that organization.  37 MR. GRANT:  I reserve -- I maintain my objection, but I'm not  38 going to oppose the witness answering the question at  39 this time, but my objection -- I wish to further  40 consider it, given the explanation you've given, and  41 reserve the right to object to her answers and that  42 evidence going in at trial, but subject to that I'll  43 let her proceed.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  45 Q   Thank you.  What are the objectives of the United  46 Native Nation's Association?  47 A   Objective I don't understand so I'll ask the 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  117  interpreter to explain to me.  Well, the first one we  got enfranchised we lost our status and we were called  non-status Indians and we were not recognized by  Indian people and we were not recognized by the  whites, by the government also, and the Indian people,  the non-status people, they start getting together on  their own and they made a group, called themselves  non-status Indians because the organization start to  be recognized who they were.  This is how they  started.  And I was living in Terrace around 1970  there was small group that started it and I was  interested in and I joined them, and every time  there's a convention on there was small groups and  then they beginning to be a larger group and they  start having conventions in Victoria, Vancouver,  Prince George and I went every one of them.  And what do they want to achieve?  They want to be recognized.  And whom do they wish to be recognized by?  By the governments and by the native people because we  felt that we called non-status that we are nobody the  way we were.  We were between the whites and the  Indians so the reason they did this was to be  recognized who we were.  Was a member of your family enfranchised?  Yes.  Who was that?  My husband.  And is that how you became a non-status Indian?  Yes.  Your husband Frank Bazil?  Yes, he became enfranchised.  And why did he do that?  The reason he did that was we were moving all over the  place.  We never live in reserve because there was no  work.  He work little bit there and there, but there  was no work and then he find job different place and  we moved again.  And at the time he got a job in  Houston at C.N.R. and he know he gets a box of shells  every winter from the Indian Affairs from Hazelton and  the money he's making was not enough.  He figures  he'll get a box of shell from them again.  He wrote  letter and reply -- the letter came back saying that  he's off reserve six months.  He was not entitled to  anything from the -- from the Indian Affairs.  And he  didn't get the box of shells and he got upset about  it.  I was too young to -- to know what was going on 118  1 at the time, but he was upset about it and there was  2 other people that already got enfranchised on the same  3 deal and they all living at Houston and they were not  4 getting anything from Indian Affairs also, and then  5 what he figured that was the best to go enfranchised  6 and that's how he did that.  7 Q   And he lived at the Moricetown reserve before?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   He was a member of the Moricetown band?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Did Frank Bazil, your former husband, apply to the  12 government for land in the Houston district, a crown  13 grant?  14 A   No, he didn't.  15 Q   Do you recall anything about that?  16 A   He never asked.  He probably did, but he didn't get  17 anything.  18 Q   And your brother's name is Peter Jim, right?  19 A   Yes.  2 0 Q   And he's a member of the Moricetown band?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   He lives on the Moricetown reserve?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And he -- you said he traps in the Quick area; is that  25 correct?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And he has a registered trap line in that area; is  28 that correct?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Yes.  He took over Louie Tommy's line didn't he?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And you're a member of that registered trap line  33 aren't you?  34 A   Right.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:   Yes.  36 MR. GRANT:  What document is this -- document number is this  37 from do you know?  38 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  We can advise you that's on our list of  39 documents as the -- as trap line files from the land  40 claims area.  It's on the defendant's list of  41 documents, document number 1276.  42 MR. GRANT:  1276 is a series of files; is that correct?  43 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, that's correct.  44 MR. GRANT:  It's a whole group of them.  45 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. This document is taken from the trap line  46 file 0608T014 and the current owner is Peter Jim and  47 that is one of the files in our list of documents, 119  1 document number 1276.  2 MR. GRANT:  I'm sure you can appreciate that that file -- that  3 document itself, that document number itself, is a  4 listing which I believe we've referred to before even  5 at trial that we wanted a more -- a better breakdown  6 of that document series and of course there's a huge  7 number of documents that are in -- incorporated into  8 that document number.  In short that I have not had an  9 opportunity to review this particular document, so if  10 you just want to take a moment?  11 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  Could I say I appreciate your comments, Mr.  12 Grant, but could I say that the plaintiffs have made  13 copies of all these documents and --  14 MR. GRANT:  The plaintiffs have?  15 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  A person from your or Mr. Rush's office  16 came and copied all these documents, and so it's my  17 understanding that they're in your possession.  I  18 might also say that these files are in file folders  19 with the trap line file number on them as a label in  20 that collection.  21 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  No, I'm not saying that you didn't give us  22 opportunity to review them or even that they haven't  23 been copied, I just don't -- I personally have not  24 perused them.  25 MR. MACKENZIE: Right.  I just handed to Mr. Grant a document  26 that I wish to put to the witness and Mr. Grant is  27 just reviewing it now.  I've also handed him a copy of  28 the document, a photocopy.  29 MR. GRANT:  Is this document incorporated in the -- in that  30 document which is an exhibit to the -- your map, your  31 alienation project and your mapping?  32 MR. MACKENZIE: It's incorporated to the extent that that  33 alienation project contains a map of trap lines with  34 all the numbers on it.  35 MR. GRANT:  Right.  36 MR. MACKENZIE: And the number of this file is one of those  37 numbers because it's a registered trap line in the  38 Quick area.  39 MR. GRANT:  But this particular document is in the supporting  40 documention on that map?  That was only —  41 MR. MACKENZIE: That's correct.  It's referred to in that  42 document.  43 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  44 MR. MACKENZIE: And it's on our list of documents.  45 MR. GRANT:  Finally, do you have the balance of this file with  46 you today?  47 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  I can let you — I can give a copy of that 120  1 to you if you'd like to review it over the noon hour  2 or --  3 MR. GRANT:  Fine.  4 MR. MACKENZIE: — in the next day or so.  5 MR. GRANT:  I'd like to review it over the noon hour.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  Fine.  7 MR. GRANT:  But I'm not objecting to you asking questions on it.  8 This is a copy?  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  10 Q   Yes.  I've handed to you a photocopy of this document.  11 Mrs. Bazil, I'm now putting before you a document  12 entitled "Application for registration of a trap line"  13 in the name of Peter Jim and Company.  And at the  14 bottom of the document on the lower right-hand side is  15 a signature "Peter Jim".  Is that your brother's  16 signature?  17 A   Yes.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:   And I'd like that document to be marked as  19 Exhibit 8?  20 MR. GRANT:  Well, for identification.  21 MR. MACKENZIE: Well, I'm sorry, Mr. Grant, my position would be  22 that she's identified the signature and therefore  23 proved the document.  24 MR. GRANT:  Well, she has identified that signature.  You didn't  25 ask her if she's ever seen this before.  I'd ask it be  26 marked for identification at this time and we can deal  27 with it.  28 MR. MACKENZIE: Fine.  29 MR. GRANT:  You've established what you say is a ground to prove  30 it.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  32 MR. GRANT:  And I think if you're right on that point then it  33 can go in as an exhibit proper.  34 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, I understand.  Well, in order to, as we both  35 want to have the commission proceed, I won't trouble  36 you with an argument or discussion and we'll do that.  37 We'll mark it as Exhibit 8 for identification,  38 indicating my position that it has been proven and by  39 proof of the signature, and we can resolve that some  40 other time perhaps.  41  42 (EXHIBIT 8 FOR IDENTIFICATION: Application for  43 registration for a trap line by Peter Jim)  44  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  46 Q   I'd ask that that conversation between Mr. Grant and  47 Miss Koenigsberg not be recorded.  I don't think Mr. 121  1 Grant intended that to be part of the record.  2 Now, the other members of that trap line are John  3 Tommy.  Do you know him, Mrs. Bazil?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Who's he?  6 A   He's the son of my uncle Wah tah kwets.  7 Q   And what is your uncle Wah tah kwets' name?  8 A   Louie Tommy.  9 Q   Louie Tommy.  And Laurence A. Tommy is also Louie  10 Tommy's son?  11 A   Grandson.  12 Q   Grandson.  Now, before Peter Jim took over the Louie  13 Tommy trap line he was a member of Peter Alfred's trap  14 line wasn't he?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Yes.  And Peter Alfred's trap line was at Buck Flats  17 wasn't it?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And Peter Alfred took over your father's trap line; is  20 that correct?  21 A   Yes.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:   Yes.  I'm placing before you — first I'm going  23 to hand to Mr. Grant a document entitled "Application  24 for registration of a trap line". This is a copy of  25 that document -- I don't have the original -- dated  26 March 31, 1945, and the photocopies are of the front  27 and back of the original document.  28 MR. GRANT:  You've given me two pages, the first page appears to  29 include two documents or the front and back of one  30 document.  The second page is either the back of one  31 of those documents or a separate -- two separate  32 documents.  Can you --  33 MR. MACKENZIE: Perhaps I could explain to you.  The first page  34 is the front page of the application showing the  35 description of the boundary and that is typed on a  36 piece of flimsy paper stuck onto the front of the  37 application and then on the bottom that description  38 has been turned over and you can see it when it's  39 turned over it becomes a white blank so that you can  40 see what was underneath that on the application  41 itself.  And that's -- so what in fact you have is on  42 the first page that I've handed to you it's the front  43 page of the application, then at the top of the second  44 page I handed to you is the back of the application  45 with the approval by Mr. Mallinson and Mr. Muirhead.  46 At the bottom of the second page I handed to you is an  47 unrelated document entitled "Application for renewal 122  MR.  MR.  MR.  1  2  3  4  5  6  7 MR.  8 MR.  9  10 MR.  11  12  13  14  15  16 MR.  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  2 8 MR.  29  30  31 MR.  32  33  34  35  3 6 MR.  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  and registered trap line holder".  GRANT:  So you're saying below the blank on the first page  is part of the first page of the document?  MACKENZIE: Yes.  GRANT:  At the very bottom.  Do you have the original or a  copy of this document?  MACKENZIE: We have a copy.  I have this photocopy.  GRANT:  I mean, I say a copy, a copy of the original  document such as Exhibit 8 which was --  MACKENZIE: I'm not sure.  I think there may be a copy in  Vancouver.  Unfortunately we don't have it here, but  if we have one -- we've checked in the files at the  Fish and Wildlife Branch and this is what we found and  if we have one in Vancouver, then I'll certainly get  it to you.  GRANT:  Yes, because I want to -- I think this is -- it's  difficult for me to understand what -- this first page  how it's set out because it's not an original.  I  think it may be more difficult for the witness if  you're going to put it to her.  It's for that reason  I'm asking for, if not the original, a copy such as  Exhibit 8 for identification in which you have  actually a carbon copy of the original document would  show that.  And the reason I say that is because the  top half of page 1 of the photocopy appears to be the  end of the page and at the right-hand side it says  "over".  MACKENZIE: Well, you see I wonder if we could go off the  record to discuss this document. Do you have any  objection to that?  GRANT:  Yes.  Certainly I have no objection to going off the  record.  (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  GRANT:  I'm not going to object to you using this photocopy  for the purposes of this examination, but I will  object to this photocopy going in as an exhibit proper  because the way you've described how the original  usually is is that the description is on a piece of  paper that is either glued or somehow otherwise  affixed to the top of the document and you in  photocopying or in having it photocopied it was lifted  up.  I think the actual way the document appears, that  is, the original document appears, is relevant and is  important.  I'm also concerned that the way this  photocopy is may be confusing to the witness.  She can 123  1 answer that question when you show it to her, but I --  2 I will agree on the assurance that you will provide us  3 with the original or a carbon copy if you have it or  4 advise us that you don't have it.  5 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, that's agreed.  6 So Mrs. Bazil I'm handing you an application for  7 registration of a trap line dated -- a copy of an  8 application dated March 31, 1945, and the signature at  9 the bottom is Peter Alfred.  Is that Peter Alfred's  10 signature at the bottom of that document?  11 MR. GRANT:  The name at the bottom is Peter Alfred.  You're not  12 sure whether it's his signature.  He can ask her that  13 question, but he said the signature is Peter Alfred  14 and then is it Peter Alfred, that's what I'm --  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  16 Q   I'll clarify that question then.  There's a name at  17 the bottom of that application that says "Peter  18 Alfred".  Is that Peter Alfred's signature?  19 A   Yes.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:   Subject to Mr. Grant's comments, I would ask  21 that that be marked as an exhibit, the next exhibit.  22 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  And I — my objection is that this document  23 itself is not satisfactory as an exhibit because of  24 the way it's copied.  It's unclear whether we're  25 talking about one or two documents and so I'd ask it  26 be marked for an exhibit for id. so you can proceed.  27 MR. MACKENZIE: Very good.  Exhibit 9 for identification, please.  28 And I'll just describe that document for the record.  29 That document at the present time, Exhibit 9 for  30 identification, is a photocopy.  It has two pages.  31 The first page appears to be the front page of an  32 application for registration of a trap line.  The  33 second page at the top half is what appears to be the  34 reverse of the application for registration of a trap  35 line.  36 MR. GRANT:  And with respect to the second page the witness  37 didn't look at the second page.  38 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  The witness has not looked at the second  39 page, and at the bottom of the second page there's a  40 copy of another document which the witness has not  41 identified.  42 MR. GRANT:  And I would recommend that at the lunch break you  43 photocopy the second page excluding that second  4 4 document.  45 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  I think we'll just cut the second document  46 at the bottom off.  47 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  We can agree to that off the record how 124  1 that's done.  2 MR. MACKENZIE: All right.  3 MR. GRANT:  And then the two pages should probably be stapled  4 together so --  5 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  We'll staple them together.  6  7 (EXHIBIT 9 FOR IDENTIFICATION:"Application for  8 registration of a trap line in the name of Peter  9 Alfred)  10  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm handing to Mr. Grant a copy of a document  12 entitled "Return of registered trap line holder" dated  13 November 3rd, 1950.  14 MR. GRANT:  This is from the same file as Exhibit 8 or 9?  15 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  I'll explain now where that document comes  16 from on the defendant's list of documents.  Now, this  17 document that I've handed to Mr. Grant "Return of  18 registered trap line holder" is drawn from the  19 registered trap line file number 0609T006, which is  20 registered in the name of Peter Alfred.  And that is a  21 file found in the document number 1276 in the  22 defendant's list of documents.  23 MR. GRANT:  That's where Exhibit 9 for identification came from  24 as well?  25 MR. MACKENZIE: That's correct.  26 MR. GRANT:  Once again with respect to both Exhibit 9 and this  27 document I will just -- my concern is that I have an  28 opportunity to review the balance of those files  29 either at the noon hour or at the end to take them  30 overnight.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  32 Q   Yes.  That's agreeable.  33 Mrs. Bazil, I'm now placing before you a document  34 entitled "Return of registered trap line holder",  35 dated November 3rd 1950.  At the bottom is a name  36 Peter Alfred.  Is that Peter Alfred's signature?  37 A   I can't identify that one.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:   Okay.  I'd ask that this document be marked  39 Exhibit 10 for identification.  The witness has not  40 identified the signature.  41  42 (EXHIBIT 10 FOR IDENTIFICATION: "Return of registered  43 trap line holder dated November 3rd, 1950)  44  45 MR. GRANT:  Are you going to ask her questions out of this  4 6 document?  47 MR. MACKENZIE: 125  1 Q   Yes.  Now, Mrs. Bazil, you testified that after your  2 father stopped trapping that Peter Alfred then began  3 to trap on the territory; is that correct?  4 A   Say it again?  5 Q   Peter Alfred trapped on the territory after your  6 father finished trapping?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And Peter Alfred was trapping in the Buck Flats area;  9 is that correct?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Yes.  When did -- to rephrase that question, and to  12 your knowledge some years did Peter Alfred not go out  13 onto the trap line?  14 A   Just when he start getting sick I guess.  15 Q   And would he have been sick in 1949 and 1950?  16 A   I can't remember when.  17 Q   I see.  But some years, as far as you can recall, he  18 was not trapping?  19 A  About every year they went up trapping for beavers and  20 they go hunting.  21 Q   Yes.  I refer you to Exhibit 10 for identification  22 which is before you.  You see this document says that  23 1949 and 1950 that apparently Peter Alfred did not  24 trap that year.  Do you agree with that?  25 A   That's the time they can't get through the trapping  26 area.  27 Q   Why's that?  28 A   There was "No Trespassing" sign and people get after  29 them to get off the highway.  30 Q   Is that in 1949?  31 A   Somewhere there.  I can't remember what year it was,  32 but I heard that.  He told me himself that they can't  33 trap because of that.  34 Q   Yes.  35 A  And there was catties all over.  36 MR. GRANT:  Is there a reverse side to this document number 10?  37 MR. MACKENZIE: Document number 10 for identification?  I don't  38 think there is a reverse side, but again the same  39 agreement will apply.  We'll get you an original if we  4 0 have it and anything else we have of that document.  41 MR. GRANT:  Thank you.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  43 Q   Now, Mrs. Bazil, were you aware that Peter Alfred also  44 had a special firearms licence?  45 A   I don't know about that.  46 Q   He carried a gun when he went onto the territory when  47 he was trapping didn't he? 126  1 A Yes.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:   And you know that a person has to have a gun  3 when they're -- has to have a licence to carry a gun  4 on the territory?  5 MR. GRANT:  I object.  That's a question of law.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  7 Q Sorry, were you aware of that?  8 A I don't -- I don't remember all these things.  9 Q Did your father carry a gun when he went trapping?  10 A Yes.  11 Q Now, you testified that your father also had a  12 registered trap line; correct?  13 A Yes.  14 Q And it was in the Buck Flats area wasn't it?  15 A Yes.  16 Q And he didn't trap up around Houston did he?  17 A Yes.  18 Q He didn't, did he?  19 A Well, he did.  We all did, my mother.  20 Q You didn't trap near the town of Houston did you?  21 A Not too close to town.  22 Q No.  Your trapping was around Buck Flats; correct?  23 A Buck Flats, but we did trap muskrats around Houston  24 area or out of -- a little ways out of town.  25 Q Yes.  And your father told you that he had signed an  26 application for registration of the trap line?  27 A I never -- I never heard that.  28 Q He told you —  29 A He probably did, but I don't remember.  30 Q Did he tell you about the time he went into Smithers  31 to get the application to sign the application?  32 A I don't remember that either.  33 Q Did he tell you about his conversations with the game  34 warden related to the trap line?  35 A I heard about that.  Yes.  36 Q And where did he talk to the game warden about the  37 trap line?  38 A It must be in Smithers.  39 Q Do you remember the name of the game warden?  4 0 A No.  41 Q Now, your father couldn't write could he?  42 A No.  43 Q And when he signed documents he'd have to make a mark  44 wouldn't he?  45 A Yes.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:   I'm showing you a photocopy of a document dated  47 February 27, 1928.  Is that the year that your father 127  1 got his trap line registration in 1928?  2 MR. GRANT:  Can I see that?  3 THE WITNESS:   I don't — I don't remember exact date, but the  4 only thing he always talked about was the -- the  5 territory was registered, but he never exactly told me  6 what year it was.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  8 Q   You were eight years old in 1928 weren't you?  9 A   Yes.  10 MR. MACKENZIE:   Okay.  I'm going to hand this application to  11 Mr. Grant to look at.  There's something -- there's  12 another document attached to it, but I'm just  13 referring the -- Mr. Grant to the trap line  14 application itself.  It's a photocopy of the front and  15 back covers of the trap line.  There's another  16 document in there which I understand is taken from the  17 file showing the boundaries of the trap line.  18 MR. GRANT:  Well, if this other document, this map or what  19 purports to be a map I guess, if it's a separate  2 0 document than the first two pages of what you've given  21 me, I think it is only fair to the witness only to  22 show her the document not to be combining documents.  23 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, I agree.  24 MR. GRANT:  Only to give her -- to separate this document apart  25 before you show it to her.  26 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  I'm prepared to do that.  I just wanted you  27 to see that other document before I took it off the  28 ones I'm going to put to the witness.  29 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, I'm handing you a photocopy of the front  31 and back pages of the document entitled "Application  32 for registration of a trap line", and the name of the  33 applicant is Moose -- is Jim Mooseskin, and the  34 document is dated January 27, 1928.  And I note that  35 in the description there's a reference to Buck Creek.  36 Putting that document before you now, Mrs. Bazil, do  37 you recognize your father's mark at the bottom of that  38 application?  39 MR. GRANT:  You're entitled look at the entire document, Mrs.  40 Bazil.  41 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  42 MR. GRANT:  And review it and read it over.  While she's doing  43 that, do you have again an original or a carbon copy  44 because part of this seems obliterated to me?  45 THE WITNESS:   Can't even read it.  It's hard to read.  46 MR. GRANT:  Can you go off the record for a moment?  47 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 128  1 MR. GRANT:  And then we could give the witness a chance to read  2 it.  3  4 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  5  6 MR. GRANT:  Just for the record we took that break so that Mr.  7 Holland just could read over that document which you  8 put to her, to Mrs. Bazil, because it's very difficult  9 to read.  You read it in English?  10 THE INTERPRETER: Yes.  11 MR. GRANT:  And as I was in discussion with Mr. Mackenzie on  12 another matter, I had Mr. Holland read it over to her  13 in English.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  15 Q   Now, Mrs. Bazil, that's your father's trap line  16 application?  17 A   I haven't seen it before, but as my interpreter read  18 it, that's how my father signs, and the witness on  19 there I know him too.  20 Q   Who is that witness?  21 A   John Goold.  22 Q   And who's he?  23 A   He owned a store.  He was a storekeeper.  He was the  24 fur buyer in Houston at the time.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:   I would ask that that application be marked as  26 the next exhibit, Exhibit 10 -- Exhibit 11, I'm sorry.  27 MR. GRANT:  Again I'd ask it be marked for identification  28 because I'm concerned about the quality of  29 photocopying and if there's a better copy.  30 MR. MACKENZIE: Fine.  31  32 (EXHIBIT 11 FOR IDENTIFICATION:  Photocopy of  33 Mooseskin Jim's application for registration of a trap  34 line, dated January 27th, 1928)  35  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  Just to make sure that it's clear what this  37 document is, it's a photocopy of what appears to be  38 Mooseskin Jim's application for registration of a trap  39 line dated January 27th, 1928.  40 MR. GRANT: It's entitled "Application for registration of a trap  41 line".  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  43 Q   Yes.  It's entitled application for registration of a  44 trap line.  45 Now, Mrs. Bazil, your father, as you testified,  46 was concerned that the game warden had restricted his  47 trap line? 129  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And are you aware that there is another trap line in  3 the northern part of the area claimed by your house  4 now, around Houston?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   Yes.  And do you know that's a white man's trap line?  7 A   No, I didn't.  8 Q   No.  Do you -- did you know that Mr. Rick Bardon,  9 B-a-r-d-o-n has a registered trap line along the  10 northern part of Buck Creek?  11 A   Northern part?  12 Q   Yes.  13 A   I don't know that.  14 Q   And are you aware that Mr. Rick Bardon is the owner  15 or -- is the registered owner of a trap line from Buck  16 Creek along the Bulkley River to the Morice River?  17 A   No.  18 Q   You're not aware of that?  19 A   No.  20 Q   And I understand you're not aware of it.  I take it  21 you're also not aware the number of that trap line is  22 609T007; is that correct?  You're not aware of that?  23 A   No.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:   Okay.  25 MR. GRANT:  I would request a copy of that file for review as  26 well, please?  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  28 MR. GRANT:  This is for, of course, my own review not to review  29 with the witness, but for my own review.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  31 Q   Yes.  Now, Mrs. Bazil, who are the knowledgeable  32 people in the house of Wah tah kwets about the  33 McDonnell Lake territory?  34 A   I'll ask my interpreter please explain to me.  35 MR. GRANT:  Before the interpreter translates, can you clarify  36 what you mean by "the knowledgeable people"?  37 MR. MACKENZIE:   Who in the house of Wah tah kwets would have  38 knowledge of the territory, the Wah tah kwet territory  39 near McDonnell Lake?  40 MR. GRANT:  Wah tah kwets' territory?  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  42 Q   Yes, that's correct?  4 3       A   John Namox.  44 Q   And you've never been to the McDonnell Lake territory  45 have you?  4 6       A   No.  47       Q   Who's the knowledgeable person in the House of Wah tah 130  1 kwets about the Wah tah kwets territory around  2 Mooseskin Johnny Lake or Housen Lake, that area?  3 A   I don't know that part.  4 Q   Who are the knowledgeable people in the House of Wah  5 tah kwets about the Wah tah kwets area around Quick  6 and Round Lake?  7 A  Again I'll ask my interpreter.  My brother Peter Jim.  8 Q   And you haven't been out on the trap line in that  9 territory have you?  10 A   No, I go through there once in a while.  11 Q   You go through on the highway?  12 A   Yes.  I been on the area quite a while back.  13 Q   When was that?  14 A   I'll say about 20 years ago when my uncle was there.  15 Q   Your uncle Louie Tommy was there; correct?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And who is the knowledgeable person in the House of  18 Wah tah kwets about the Wah tah kwets' territory near  19 Topley?  20 A  Ah k'ot is the one that held that area, but I don't  21 know his English name.  It was one of my mother's  22 uncle.  23 Q   Ah k'ot.  Could we have a spelling on that, please?  2 4 A  Ah k'ot.  25 MR. MITCHELL:  Number 41.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  27 Q   Thank you.  Now, Ah k'ot -- Ah k'ot is a name of a  28 chief in the House of Wah tah kwets; is that correct?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Yes.  You testified that Mooseskin Johnny got his name  31 from the Hudson Bay stores; correct?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   He used to buy the moose skins from the stores;  34 correct?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Are you also aware that the one of the Wah tah kwets  37 crests came from the Hudson's Bay store from a flag?  38 A   I don't remember that either.  39 Q   You've never heard that story?  4 0 A   No.  41 Q   Speaking about the Madeek-Kanoots-Buck Flats area, are  42 you aware that the Carrier-Sekani people claim that  43 area?  44 A   Say it again?  45 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  When you say the Carrier-Sekani  46 people, can you be more precise to her as to -- and  47 that they claim the area, I think it's only fair to 131  1 the witness you specifically refer to what you mean  2 when you say they're claiming the area.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  4 Q   I'm speaking about the Buck Flats area.  You  5 understand what I'm speaking about?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And are you aware that the Carrier-Sekani nation has  8 filed a comprehensive claim with the federal  9 government claiming ownership of that territory?  10 A   I'll ask my interpreter again, please?  No, I don't --  11 I don't hear anything like that.  I don't know  12 anything about it.  13 THE INTERPRETER: The witness requests a break.  14 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, would you like to have a break?  15 THE WITNESS: Yes.  16 MR. GRANT:  We'll go off the record and have a lunch break.  17 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  18  19 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCHEON RECESS)  20  21 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  22  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  24 Q   Now, Mrs. Bazil, you testified that your father held  25 the chief's name Kanoots; is that correct?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Yes.  And after him it was Peter Alfred; correct?  28 A   Yes.  Not after him.  There was another lady Sarah  29 Holland.  30 Q   Sarah Holland, yes.  Was Sarah Holland a member of the  31 House of Madeek?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And when did Sarah Holland die?  34 A   It was around '74 or '75.  I can't remember exactly.  35 Q   And did Sarah have any children?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And what were the names of Sarah's children?  38 A   She had three daughters I remember.  One was Martha,  39 one was Emily, and one I'm pretty sure is Nancy.  I'm  40 not quite sure.  Nancy I think.  41 Q   Do any of those daughters have chief's names do you  42 know?  43 A   No.  44 Q   Sorry, they do not have chief's names; is that  45 correct?  4 6 A   No.  47 Q   Yes. 132  1 A   No, they all deceased.  2 Q   Yes.  All of Martha's daughters are deceased -- I'm  3 sorry, Sarah's daughters are deceased; is that  4 correct?  5 A   I think two of them.  6 Q   Yes.  Who's alive now?  7 A   I'm not quite sure.  I think the oldest one maybe.  8 Q   Who would that be?  9 A  Martha I think.  10 Q   And what is Martha's name?  11 A  Martha Holland.  And she was married, I just can't  12 remember her married name.  13 Q   Did Martha have any children?  14 A   She had two daughters I think.  I can't remember their  15 names either.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:   Now, Sarah Holland's name does not appear in  17 the Madeek chart does it?  18 MR. GRANT:  Which one are you referring to, Exhibit 4?  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  20 Q   Exhibit 2 for identification.  Yes.  I was referring  21 to Exhibit 2 for identification which is the Madeek  22 genealogy and Mr. Grant has it before him now.  23 And who were Sarah Holland's parents?  24 A   I can't remember.  I think they died before I was --  25 to remember.  26 Q   Now, you have before you Exhibit 2 for identification,  27 the Madeek genealogy.  Did you have an opportunity to  28 review that before the commission?  29 A   I'll ask interpreter, please.  30 THE INTERPRETER: Can you rephrase that again?  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  32 Q   Yes.  I'm referring to the Madeek genealogy, Exhibit 2  33 for identification.  Did you have an opportunity to  34 review that, Exhibit 2, before this commission?  35 A   No.  No.  36 Q   The first time you saw that Exhibit 2 was Monday  37 morning when you came to the commission; is that  38 correct?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   So you don't know whether Sarah Holland's name is on  41 that chart do you?  42 A   I'm not sure.  43 Q   And Sarah Holland's daughter Martha is a member of the  44 House of Madeek isn't she?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And Martha Holland's two daughters are also members of  47 the House of Madeek aren't they? 133  1 A Yes.  2 MR. GRANT:  Could we go off the record for a moment, please?  3 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  4  5 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  6  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  8 Q So -- and you are not a member of the House of Madeek  9 are you, Mrs. Bazil?  10 A No.  11 Q Who in the house of Madeek would be knowledgeable  12 about the members of the House of Madeek?  13 A Well, Madeek himself and the chiefs, the members of  14 the house.  15 Q And who is Madeek now?  16 A Madeek hasn't -- is still sitting there, hasn't taken  17 yet.  The young fella's in line for it, but the feast  18 hasn't go through yet.  19 Q Yes.  George Naziel had the name Madeek?  20 A Yes.  21 Q And he died in December last year didn't he?  22 A Yes.  23 Q And Russel Tiljoe is in line to take the name; is that  24 correct?  25 A Yes.  Yes.  2 6 Q And why hasn't that name been taken yet?  27 A They are preparing maybe until summer.  They usually  28 prepare for the feast.  29 Q What -- how will they decide who will take the name?  30 A I guess himself.  31 Q Russel Tiljoe will decide?  32 A Point him out.  George Naziel will point him out.  33 Q George --  34 A It's usually done that way.  35 Q I see.  George Naziel appointed Russel Tiljoe to be  36 his successor?  37 A Yes.  38 Q And to your knowledge what factors would go into that  39 decision?  Why --  40 A I can't understand.  41 Q Why did George Naziel choose Russel Tiljoe?  42 A Because he was next man that's in line for that name.  43 Q And how do you decide whether you're next in line for  44 that name?  45 A They usually watch the young generation grow up, who  46 is active, and who's got -- who they think that is  47 going to look after the name and the territory. 1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  134  That's who's always chosen and is in line for that.  And we were speaking about Kanoots before, and Sarah  Holland had that name didn't she?  Yes.  And then Peter Alfred had it didn't he?  Yes.  Yes.  And who has the name Kanoots now?  That one too is just waiting now because Peter Alfred  just passed away recently and Freddie Joseph is in  line.  He's preparing for the feast for the next --  next summer, this summer coming.  And how did Peter -- did Peter appoint Fred Joseph to  be the next Kanoots?  Yes.  And why did Fred appoint Peter -- I'm sorry, why did  Peter appoint Fred to be the next Kanoots?  Because he know he's the -- he's the boy next that he  picked out that he can do the things he wants him to  do.  Now, has Fred Joseph been on the territory?  I'm not quite sure yet.  No one is holding the name of Kanoots.  Does that mean  no one is look after the territory now?  For the moment, yes, there is nobody there.  Now, who owns the territory at Buck Flats, Madeek or  Kanoots?  It's still -- it's still under Kanoots and Madeek.  Both of them they passed away and it's still under  where it was before, even they're dead, and then the  feast comes, that's when everything is changed,  changed hands.  And is it necessary to have money to become the next  Chief Kanoots to pay for the name?  Yes.  How much will a person pay for the name Kanoots?  This is not actually how much they supposed to spend,  is they spend whatever they can spend.  Some more,  some less.  And is it decided how much money Fred Joseph will  spend to become Kanoots?  No, I don't know.  Now, I'm talking about the Buck Flats territory.  The  last time you went down to that area was after the big  fire; correct?  Yes.  And that was in 1983 wasn't it?  Yes. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  135  That was the summer of 1983 wasn't it?  Summer, yes.  Yes.  And you went with your daughter?  Yes.  And did she drive or did you drive?  Her husband was driving.  I see.  And how long were you there in the summer of  1983?  We just drove along the highway.  We didn't stop and  stay anywhere.  We just drove to the end and we turn  around and came back.  We didn't get out of the car or  anything, just drive around and see the country.  You drove along the Buck Creek road?  Yes.  And that road goes down to Sam Goosley Lake doesn't  it?  Yes.  And there are two bridges on that road?  Yeah.  Yes.  To Buck Flat is two bridge.  There are two?  They might be more up further.  I never been up  further.  Between Houston and Buck Flats there are two bridges;  is that correct?  Two big ones.  Yes.  And the government built those bridges didn't it?  I think so.  Yes.  And that road is paved now isn't it?  No, it wasn't when I was up there last.  It's got gravel?  Gravel road, yes, the last trip I went up there.  And there are hydro-electric line -- hydro-electric  poles along part of that road are there?  The last trip I went there was.  Now, you -- we spoke about 1983.  Before that you were  there in 1977; is that correct?  About that year.  Yes.  About ten years ago, yes?  Yes.  And that's when you went with your family to Buck  Flats; correct?  Yes.  Yes.  And how long were you at the territory during  that visit?  We stopped at where the house was located at, used to  be, and we crossed the fence and we walked over to  where the barn was.  The roof was caved in already and 1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  42  Q  43  A  4 4 MR.  GRANT  45  4 6 MR.  macke:  4 7 MR.  GRANT  136  the roof was still showing, so we went there and we  took pictures there and came back to the -- where the  big house used to be.  We must have been there about  half an hour.  And after you looked at the Buck Flats house you got  back in the car and went back --  Yes.  -- to Houston?  Yes.  Well, somebody came.  We crossed the fence.  There was fence, but we crossed it.  We didn't know it  was going to hurt anyone, and the fella that have a  house just below it he came after us and ask us what  we're doing.  And I told him that's where we grew up,  my brother and I, we just telling our children where  we grew up, that's all we doing.  He ask if we were  setting traps and I said "No.", and we left right  away.  He said he owned that territory -- he owned that  property?  Yes.  At the time I told him that my mother and my  father we helped them clear the land there.  There  used to be horse -- we used to make hey for the horse  and garden used to be there.  And before 1977 when were you on the territory?  Were  you on the territory in the 1970's?  No.  I went there after I was married.  A year later  we just made one trip up there with my husband and my  brother.  You were married in 1936?  Yes.  And about two years later I think they -- my  brother had set traps and we went with him and we came  right back.  And that's your brother Peter Jim?  Yes.  That was the last time I was there.  And that was in 1938?  Somewhere there.  Yes.  And how long were you on the territory during that  visit?  About a week or so.  We just went with him when he was  checking out his traps.  And we were living at Houston  at the time.  And where did he go to check his traps?  Right at the Taneen K'uts Legh, towards Taan deet.  :  Towards Taan deet.  I just didn't get a note of  which year that she was referring to.  JZIE:  1938.  :  The one before -- that was the one before -- that's 137  1 the one she was describing before the trip before  2 that?  3 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  Oh, sorry 1983 then 1977 now 1938.  4 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  6 Q   And Taneen K'uts Legh is a hill on the territory; is  7 that correct?  8 A   Yeah, the end of the mountain that -- just the end  9 there.  That's where he goes across.  10 Q   Now, Buck Flats or Ts'un c'os 'aay is at the mouth of  11 Taniits ts'anlii?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Where it flows into Neen lii kwe; correct?  14 A   Taaniits c'ek'een s'aay - Taaniits ts'anlii, that's  15 where the house was.  16 Q   Yes.  And that's where they --  17 A   That's Ts'un c'os 'aay.  18 Q   That's where Taniits ts'anlii, that creek, flows into  19 the Buck Creek?  20 A   Small -- small creek.  Yes.  21 Q   Now, where is Taneen K'uts Legh from -- Taneen K'uts  22 Legh, where is that from Buck Flats, what direction?  23 A   I'm facing to Houston, it will be on my right-hand  24 side.  25 Q   Yes.  Now, when you face Houston you face north,  26 right?  27 A   I'm facing now this way.  Yes.  28 Q   Yes?  29 A  And Ts'un c'os 'aay is -- the river goes down this way  30 and the mountain is on this side and the house was  31 here, and it's on the right-hand side of me as where  32 I'm sitting.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Pardon me, I'll try and —  34 MR. GRANT:  I just want to be sure that the reporter has all  35 those words.  Maybe you can stop for a second.  36 MR. MACKENZIE: I'd like to go off the record, please?  37  38 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  39  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  41 Q   Okay.  Now, this series of questions that I asked you,  42 Mrs. Bazil, it's about your visit to the territory in  43 1938, and you went to the territory with Peter Jim and  44 your brother and he was laying some traps; correct?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And then I asked you where did he go to lay the traps  47 and you said Taneen K'uts Legh? 138  1 A   Taneen K'uts Legh, yes.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  Have you got that?  3 MR. GRANT:  Second last hill on the affidavit.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:   Second last hill on the affidavit. Okay.  5 MR. GRANT:  Page four.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  7 Q   Now, I asked you where that hill is from the cabin at  8 Buck Flats and you said facing towards Houston the  9 river goes down; correct?  10 A   Right.  11 Q   And you're facing north at that time aren't you?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Yes.  And when you're facing north this hill is on  14 which side?  15 A  My right-hand side.  16 Q   Your right-hand side.  So therefore it's to the east  17 of the cabin; correct?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Yes.  And how long does it take to get to this hill  20 from the cabin?  21 A   I'll say about -- you mean the -- to the end of the  22 line or --  23 Q   Yes.  24 A   It takes them about a day walking.  25 Q   And what is the meaning of the word, the name for that  26 hill, Taneen K'uts Legh?  27 A   It means the end of that mountain.  I think it's --  28 we're putting it's the slope of that mountain that  2 9 going down.  30 Q   Yes?  31 A   That's what it means, Legh.  32 Q   And did that trap line go along a creek?  33 A   No.  There are small creeks, but I don't remember  34 names for them.  We walk over that slope and then go  35 down on the other side and there's little creeks then  36 there, and then we get to Taan deet.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Taan deet. Now, Taan deet you referred to  38 before.  Let's get that cleared up.  Do you have a  39 spelling for that?  40 MR. MITCHELL:  Taan deet, number 30.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  42 Q   And what's the meaning of that word?  43 A   Taan deet means -- it's a swamp, and there's a lake in  44 the middle of that swamp and it's narrow, so that's  45 why it's a narrow lake.  That's what it means.  46 Q   And the other side of that lake is Namox's territory;  47 correct? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  139  Right.  And so Taan deet is east again of the cabin at Buck  Flats, right?  Yes.  Now, when your -- Peter Jim laid the traps, were they  laid around in the swamp area and along the creeks?  Not at the swamp.  Before you get there.  So they're laid along the creeks?  As we walk there's traps set up all the way.  And generally speaking, do they follow the lines of  the creeks?  No.  Crossing creeks.  That's what they do.  Now, is that the line that your brother Peter Jim set  traps along during that visit in 1938?  Say it again?  Yes.  Did Peter Jim set traps towards Taneen K'uts  Legh during your visit in 1938?  Yes.  And did you go along with Peter Jim when he did that?  I stayed in Ts'un c'os 'aay.  My husband went with  him.  Your husband Frank Bazil?  Yes.  You stayed at the cabin; correct?  Yes.  Did you go out on the trap lines with Peter Jim or  your husband at any time during your visit for one  week in 1938?  No.  You stayed at Buck Flats near the cabin the whole  time?  At the house.  Yes.  And before 1938, the last time you were on the  territory was before you were married?  Yes.  And when were you married in 1936?  In September.  September.  Were you on the trap line earlier in that  year?  No.  Were you in the territory earlier in that year?  Earlier I was.  In early 1936?  Thirty-five.  So in 19 —  And in '36 earlier I was there in spring.  So you were on the trap line in the winter of 1935 and 1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Q  140  the spring of 1936?  Yes.  Now, that year before you were married, did you go out  on the trap lines?  Yes.  So the last -- we're now in 1986.  The last time you  went on the trap lines in the territory was 50 years  ago; is that correct?  Yes.  And you've driven on the Morice River Road?  We -- I go through there just to -- to go to -- we  travel through there going to Owen Lake and Francois  Lake, just the highway.  You said Owen Lake, O-w-e-n, and that road is a gravel  road is it not?  Yes.  Yes.  And are you aware that that's maintained by the  Forest Service?  There was mine at Owen Lake at that time I remember  and that's when the road was put in.  And the road goes all the way from Highway 16 down  past the Owen Lake to Francois Lake doesn't it?  Yes.  And that road goes through your territory does it?  There's another road you're talking about.  This is  Morice River Road you're talking about?  Yes, that's right?  And there's another road goes to Francois Lake what  goes through Bob Creek too.  Yes, that's right.  So you say that the Morice River  Road is not in your territory?  No.  Okay.  The Morice River Road is outside your  territory?  Yes.  When you were going on the trap line with your father  you never went over to the Morice River Road did you?  No.  In fact when you were on the trap line with your  father you never went over as far as the Morice River  at all did you?  No.  Now, you were speaking about the Buck Creek Road and  that road as you mentioned can take you to Goosley  Lake in Namox territory, right?  Yes.  And it can also take you to Parrot Lake can't it? 141  Yes.  Yes.  And can take you down to Francois Lake can't it?  Yes.  And your father used that road to get to Buck Flats  whenever you went down there didn't he?  Yes.  And in the early years that was a wagon road wasn't  it?  Yes.  And later it was developed into a gravel road for cars  and trucks wasn't it?  Yes.  And did your father drive a car or truck on that road  ever?  My father never had a car, but my cousin Peter Alfred  he drove a car up there.  Yes.  And Peter Jim, I take it, drove down there too?  Yes.  After that they all use cars.  Yes.  Now, are you -- it's true that Buck Creek Road  was in use, that's where the wagon trail was in use  before you were born?  Yes.  And are you aware that the people used that road to  get down to Francois Lake?  Yes.  People call that the Houston-Wistaria Road, did you  know that, to go to Wistaria?  No, I don't remember that.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:   Wistaria is W-i-s-t-a-r-i-a.  30 MR. GRANT:  Just -- I'm just -- if you're asking a question like  31 that, when you say "people" I think it's pretty  32 general and you should tell her who you're referring  33 to because it's a pretty broad description.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Of course.  Yes.  35 MR. GRANT:  Maybe you can narrow it down to who you're referring  36 to in some more narrow definition.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  38 Q   Yes.  Are you aware that white people use the Buck  Creek Road to get down into the Francois Lake area?  Yes.  They drive past your cabin at Buck Flats?  Yes.  And that was when you were a little girl?  Yes.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:   Yes.  Now, are you aware that there were  46 sawmills on the road down past your cabin on the Buck  47 Flats Road, Buck Creek Road?  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A 142  1 MR. GRANT:  When?  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  When you were a little girl in the 1930's?  No.  You don't recall sawmills down there?  No.  Now, talking about the bridges on the road, there are  two bridges on the Buck Creek Road aren't there?  Yes.  And your cabin site at Buck Flats is south of the  second bridge isn't it?  Yes.  Yes.  And are you aware that a new bridge was built  there, two new bridges were built there in 1970?  Yes.  Yes.  That was -- and those were built by the  government as you said, right?  That's when the mine started or logging camps start up  at Sam Goosley.  That's when they fix all those  bridges.  So the logging trucks use the Buck Creek Road as well?  Yes.  Yes.  Now, when was the last time that you drove down  to Owen Lake on the Morice River Forest Road?  The same year when we went to Buck Flat to watch where  the fire was.  Oh, yes, so that --  Fire went across the Morice River so we drove there  the next day.  Yes, that was --  It was the same year.  Yes, that was 1983?  Yes.  That's right.  And when you drive down the Morice  River Road you pass the Northland Sawmill don't you?  We didn't go that far.  I see.  We just went as far as the turn-off to Morice Lake  Road.  Yes.  There's a junction.  That's where we turned around.  There's a large sawmill when you leave Highway 16 --  Yes.  -- and go down?  Yes.  And further along Highway 16 of course you have the  town of Houston don't you?  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47 143  1 A Yes.  2 Q Yes.  And along the Bulkley River on the south shore  3 as you're driving along you have the C.N.R., Canadian  4 National Railroad, don't you?  5 A Yes.  6 Q Yes.  And does that railroad go through your  7 territory?  8 A Yes.  The railroad is not crossing my father's  9 territory.  It's the other territory.  10 Q I see.  11 A Yes.  12 Q And how far north does your father's territory extend?  13 A I'd say about six miles.  14 Q Six miles from Buck Flats?  15 A Six or seven miles the -- where is his line is the --  16 where his territory is, that's where the C.N. is.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:   I see.  How far north from Buck Flats does your  18 father's territory extend?  19 MR. GRANT:  From where the cabin is?  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  21 Q Yes.  22 A I can't say exact mile, but the territory was, like I  23 said, was bigger than when they put the line in.  From  24 Bob Creek I'll say about three miles, three and a half  2 5 mi1e s.  26 Q Three and a half miles. So your father's territory,  27 this is a Madeek-Kanoots territory; correct?  28 A Yes.  29 Q It doesn't go as far as the Bulkley River?  30 A From the house, yes.  31 Q It doesn't go as far as the Bulkley River does it?  32 A No.  33 Q And it doesn't go as far as Houston does it?  34 A No.  35 Q And it doesn't go as far as the C.N. Railway does it?  36 A No.  37 Q Did you want to have a break, Mrs. Bazil?  38 A Well, it's three o'clock.  We might as well.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:   Is that all right with you?  40  41 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR AFTERNOON RECESS)  42  4 3 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  44  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  46 Q So we can go on the record now I guess.  47 Yes.  Mrs. Bazil, we were talking about the Buck 144  Flats area, and have you ever seen a map of your  father's territory?  No, I haven't.  No.  Have you ever looked at a government map with  Buck Creek on it?  No.  Do you have any government -- have you ever had a  government map, purchased one?  No.  No.  Have you ever read a government map?  No, I never.  All right.  So your only knowledge of the territory is  what your father told you; is that correct?  Yes.  And also what you saw when you were --  Yes.  -- with him; correct?  Yes.  Yes.  I been all over the area.  Yes?  Yes.  And you've been to K'en kia ben?  Yes.  Get that word, please?  K'en kia ben.  That's a lake?  Yes.  That's near the beaver swamp?  Not far from that.  Yes.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:   It's the second name on the affidavit.  32 MR. GRANT:  Paragraph 7, the second name under "Lakes".  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  Okay.  And what's the meaning of that term K'en kia  ben?  The only name I know it by is "K'en kia" means "big  foot". I guess the lake is a shape of a foot, that's  why they call it K'en kia. "K'en kia" means "big foot"  and "ben" means "lake".  And whose territory is on the other side of that lake?  Tommy Stewart.  And have you been to Wid'uk ts'anlii?  Yes.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:   That's the first creek on page 4 of the  45 affidavit.  46 MR. MITCHELL: Twenty-nine.  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A 145  And where is Wid'uk ts'anlii in relation to the Buck  Flat cabin if you're facing Houston which is north?  Wid'uk ts'anlii is toward Morice River.  And that's Peacock Creek, right?  Yes.  Do you know where Silverthorn Creek is?  Yes.  Yes.  And do you know where Silverthorn Lake it?  I never been on that lake.  Do you have a name for Silverthorn Lake?  I don't think I did.  Where is Silverthorn Lake in relation to the cabin at  Buck Flats?  Quite a ways away.  Yes.  It's -- which direction is it?  I can't remember where that is.  I see.  I never been on it, so I don't know exactly where it  is .  Oh, yes I understand.  Do you know where Lartet --  Lartet Creek is, L-a-r-t-e-t?  No.  Do you know where Coggan Creek is, C-o-g-g-a-n?  No.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:   Have you ever heard of Campbell Brook?  26 MR. GRANT:  What was the creek before Campbell Brook?  27 MR. MACKENZIE:.  Coggan, C-o-g-g-a-n. Have you heard of Hoist Brook,  H-o-l-s-t?  No.  Have you heard of Mitchell Creek?  No.  And you testified that you had been to the waterfall  at Neen lii; correct?  Yes.  What's the meaning of Neen lii?  It means waterfalls.  Yes.  And what's the meaning of Neen lii kwe?  Neen lii kwe, it's the river coming from the falls.  Okay.  Have you got those?  That's Buck Creek;  correct?  Yes.  And Mr. Grant showed you a photograph taken at the  falls didn't he?  Yes.  And that photograph you said was a picture of your  brother and Peter Alfred; correct?  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47 146  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And that's your brother Peter Jim?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And Peter Alfred?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And Peter Alfred was the previous Kanoots; correct?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And you knew Peter Alfred quite well didn't you?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   When was the last time you saw Peter Alfred?  11 A  About two weeks before he died.  12 Q   Oh, I see.  And do you recall that that photograph was  13 taken during a trip that Peter Alfred and your brother  14 Peter Jim made to the territory?  15 A   Yes.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:   And when was that trip?  17 MR. GRANT:  That's Exhibit 5 you're referring too?  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  19 Q   Yes.  I'm referring to the photograph Exhibit 5, and  20 you understand that's the photograph that Mr. Grant  21 showed you?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   Yes.  And when was that trip that they took together?  24 A   I can't remember what year.  I don't recall.  25 Q   And which -- there are two people in that photograph.  26 Looking at the photograph, there's a person on the  27 right-hand side and there's a person on the left-hand  28 side, and which of those people is Peter Jim, your  29 brother?  30 A   The way I'm looking at it on my right-hand side is my  31 brother Peter Jim.  32 Q   Yes.  Thank you.  So the other person is Peter Alfred;  33 is that correct?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Now, there's a hill on your territory called Cunyaa  36 t'aan Wedel taan, and that's the last hill on the  37 paragraph.  Do you know that hill?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   What's the meaning of that?  4 0 A   Cunyaa t' aan Wedel taan means -- I don't know the  41 English name for the plant.  It's -- what kind of  42 plant, just like ferns, but they got big leaves and  43 they bloom in the month of May like a big white  44 flowers on top of them and that's the only place that  45 stuff grows in a big area.  This is what they call it  46 by, Cunyaa.  Cunyaa means that's where it grows.  47 MR. GRANT:  Can we go off the record for a second? 147  1  2 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  3  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  We were talking about Cunyaa t' aan Wedel  5 taan, and perhaps Mr. Holland you could tell us what  6 the meaning of that is in English?  7 THE INTERPRETER: I believe — I may be wrong, but I think it's  8 Indian Halibore.  9 MR. GRANT:  That's the name of the flower that's referred to in  10 that name; is that right?  11 THE INTERPRETER:   Yeah, the plant itself.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  13 Q   And who gave that name to the hill, Mrs. Bazil?  14 A   I don't know who gave the name, but it was called that  15 as I remember.  It's always called that, anybody walk  16 through there.  17 Q   Now, there's another lake on the territory Whuus  18 ts'anlii.  You know that lake?  19 A  Whuus ts'anlii. Yes.  20 Q   Do you have that name?  The third name under "Lakes".  21 What is the meaning of that name?  22 A   It means the creek coming from the ferns, come through  23 the ferns. "Whuus" means "ferns", "ts'anlii" means  24 "creek".  25 Q   So that's the name of a creek?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And where is that creek in relation to Buck Flats  28 cabin when you're looking north to Houston?  29 A   It's -- this picture isn't like this.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:   Just hang on now.  You're now referring to the  31 picture which is --  32 MR. GRANT:  Exhibit 3.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  34 Q   Which is Exhibit 3?  35 A   Towards -- it's towards Houston, this one here,  36 it's -- I'm facing the north, so Houston is in front  37 of me.  38 Q   Yes, that's correct.  39 A  And then that's where you're going to Houston --  40 Q   Yes.  41 A   -- past Bob Creek and on top of the hill --  42 Q   Yes.  43 A   -- there's a trail turn-off to the left.  44 Q   To the left which is going west; correct?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   Yes.  47 A  And that's where the lake is.  There's two little 148  1 lakes, small ones.  2 Q   So you leave the road just near Bob Creek and you go  3 west --  4 A   Past Bob Creek towards where Houston is.  5 MR. GRANT:  I'm not objecting to your notion of directions, but  6 of course these creeks we're talking about general  7 directions, not specifics because these creeks may go  8 not directly north, they may waver and it may be a  9 specific point in the creek, so when you're saying or  10 you're suggesting the witness to go west or north or  11 east, it's generally in a westerly direction.  12 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  13 MR. GRANT:  And we're not —  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  15 Q   So what -- what is the name of the lake, the little  16 lakes that -- near that creek Whuus ts'anlii?  17 A   That lake -- there's two lakes beside one another.  I  18 forgot the name both of them, but the creek is coming  19 between those two lakes and that's what it's called,  20 Whuus ts'anlii, and I remember the whole area they  21 call it Whuus ts'anlii.  22 Q   Now, what is Wid'uk C'es?  23 A  Wid'uk —  24 MR. MACKENZIE:   — C'es.  25 MR. GRANT:  Which one are you referring to on the list?  26 MR. MACKENZIE: I'm referring to W-i-d-e-k- C-'-e-s.  27 MR. GRANT:  Are you looking at the affidavit?  28 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  29 MR. GRANT:  Could you just — what is it under just so that  30 the — the first hill?  31 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  32 MR. GRANT:  Can you just pronounce that for her?  33 THE INTERPRETER:  Wid'uk C'es.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  35 Q   Beg your pardon, Wid'uk C'es?  36 A   I'm not familiar with that name.  37 Q   Okay.  What's that name mean?  38 A   "Wid'uk", that I know, it's the little hill.  That's  39 that little hill is below Dzel teel towards -- past  40 Houston towards Morice River.  That's what you asked  41 earlier, that Wid'uk ts'anlii, that's the hill on top  42 of that is called Wid'uk ts'anlii, Wid'uk, little,  43 small mountain.  44 Q   You haven't been up there have you?  45 A   No.  46 Q   And what is Niit k'ay coo?  47 A   Niit k'ay coo, yes. 149  1 Q   What is that?  2 A   It's three little hills.  It's inside my father's  3 territory.  There's three little hills, one big one  4 and another one that they call it middle one, and one  5 that's a baby one.  It's three of them.  They look  6 alike.  That's why Niit k'ay coo, it's a big one, K'e  7 k'us nii k'ay is the middle one, and Niit k'ay yes is  8 the smaller one.  9 Q   And where are those hills in relation to Buck Flats  10 cabin when you're looking north to Houston?  11 A   That picture -- you see picture where the house was,  12 one is right -- right beside, I'll say about a mile.  13 You can see it from the house right in front.  14 Q   It's quite close to Buck Flats?  15 A   Yeah, they're close.  And then another one down  16 towards Houston.  There's two more the same kind.  17 MR. GRANT:  Just before you go on, the three hills she named  18 were the second third and fourth hill on the page 4 of  19 the affidavit, and the second hill she -- I believe  20 she said K'e k'us nii k'ay; is that right?  21 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  22 MR. GRANT:  Yes. So the second hill —  23 THE WITNESS: K'e k'us nii k'ay.  It's the middle one.  24 MR. MACKENZIE: We should go off the record if you want to  25 discuss the names.  26 MR. GRANT:  I'm not — I want — I just want to put this on the  27 record for the reporter.  In other words, there's  28 those three hills, and -- but the second one she  29 reversed the name from what is on the affidavit.  In  30 other words, she put the second word first.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  32 Q   Okay.  So Wid'uk ts'anlii is not on your father's  33 territory is it?  34 A   Not quite.  35 Q   And Wid'uk C'es is not on your father's territory is  36 it?  37 A   Not quite.  Close by.  38 MR. GRANT:  Go off the record for a moment, please?  39 MR. MACKENZIE: Off the record, please?  40  41 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  42  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  44 Q   On the record.  Okay.  Nii k'ay -- okay. You referred  45 to Nii k'ay k'ek'us didn't you?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Yes.  And that's the — that's the medium hill? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10 MR.  GRANT  11  12 MR.  macke:  13  Q  14  A  15  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  Q  150  K'ek'us is the medium.  Yes. And that's not on your father's territory?  It is.  Yes.  And Niit k'ay yes is the small hill; correct?  Yes.  And that's not on your father's territory?  It is.  Yes.  Now, Tsee dil k'un', do you know that?  Tsee dil k'un', is that what it is?  :  Can you pronounce it?  Is this the one on the list  of hills you're referring to?  JZIE:  Yes.  Tsee dil k'un'.  No, it's outside of my father's  territory.  Okay.  Now, what is the meaning of that word?  Well, if you come to Houston you'll see the mountain  above Houston.  The rock is all red, and that's what  it means, red mountain.  Okay.  The next Taaneen K'uts, that's on your father's  territory?  Yes, half of it.  Half of it?  Half of that.  Half of that hill?  Yes, about half I think.  It's -- that's the part that  they use for territory boundary like.  What's the meaning of that name?  Taaneen K'uts -- Lt'sinii yes, it's -- I can't  describe that either.  I don't understand what it  means. Lt'sinii yes.  Now, when you're standing at Buck Flats looking north  to Houston where is Taaneen --  Lt'sinii yes.  It's behind me.  Taaneen K'uts is behind you when you're standing at  Buck Flats?  This is Taaneen K'uts on this side.  Lt'sinii yes is  this side.  Yes.  Okay.  We'll go over that again if you don't  mind.  And what is Lt'sinii yes?  What type of feature  is that?  Lt'sinii yes is just -- it's just like a mountain, but  it's a little high.  It's round.  When you look at it  from -- from -- coming from Houston going up towards  Buck Flat you'll see it in front of you.  It's round  and it's quite high.  So it's south of Buck Flats is it? 151  1 A   Yes.  2 MR. GRANT:  Just for the record there I think you were referring  3 to Taaneen K'uts, which is the sixth one down on the  4 list of hills.  5 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  6 MR. GRANT:  And in response the witness referred to Lt'sinii  7 yes, which is the first one under the list of  8 "Ridges".  I'm only saying that because I think you  9 may have been thinking you were talking about the same  10 thing and you weren't.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  12 Q   Yes. Lt'sinii yes is the ridge south of Buck Flats ;  13 is that correct?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And whose territory is on the other side of that  16 ridge?  17 A   Namox.  18 Q   Now, where is Taaneen K'uts?  19 A   Taaneen K'uts, that's what we look at on the picture  20 there.  21 Q   Yes.  Okay.  Have you got Taaneen K'uts?  And  22 that's -- that's east of Buck Flats; correct?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   So that's -- Taaneen K'uts is the ridge running from  25 north to south?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Now, what is Taaneen K'uts Legh?  28 A   That's the end of that mountain.  29 Q   And the meaning of that word is the end of the  30 mountain; correct?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And do you know where Parrot Lake is?  33 A   Parrot Lake, it's -- that's the one I don't know  34 exactly where it's at.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:   Do you know a lake called the — I'm writing  36 the name of this lake down.  37 MR. GRANT:  Is this a new form of examination?  You don't need  38 interrogatories.  39 MR. MACKENZIE: I'm giving that name to Mr. Holland so that he  40 can pronounce it on my behalf and ask you where it is.  41 MR. GRANT:  This is a lake is it?  42 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  43 THE INTERPRETER:  Is that two l's, "d-e-1-1".  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  Dek'ay tl'enlii?  45 THE INTERPRETER:  Dek'ay tl'enlii.  46 THE WITNESS:  Dek'ay tl'enlii.  Dek'ay tl'enlii. That's below  47 Cunyaa T' aan Wedel taan.  It's in Thomas George's for  152  1 territory.  "Dek'ay" means "trout".  I didn't know  2 that name was Poplar Lake.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  4 Q   Sorry, what did you say?  5 A   I didn't know the lake, the first name you mentioned  6 in English, I didn't know that name, that lake you're  7 talking about.  It's Dek'ay tl'enlii they call it.  8 Q   And do you know the creek Dek'aaz tl'enlii?  9 A   No.  10 MR. GRANT:  That should be given to the reporter for the record  11 because the question refers to that lake, just that  12 she has the spelling.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  14 Q   Did you get the name of the other lake that I asked?  15 Now, in your affidavit you said that you were a  16 hereditary chief, right?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And how were you chosen to become a hereditary chief?  19 A  My uncles that died they all had names and it's going  20 generation to generation and my son is in line  21 one, so one of them is.  22 Q   So you've got the name Guhe'?  23 A   I still have that name.  24 Q   Yes.  Have you had any other chiefly names?  25 A   No.  26 Q   Your mother had that name before you?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Now, okay, Mr. -- okay.  Exhibit 4 for identification  29 was your affidavit and could you place the affidavit  30 please, Exhibit 4 for identification, before the  31 witness.  Yes.  You have Exhibit 4 now before you?  32 Yes?  And that's your affidavit; correct?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And you swore that that affidavit was true?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And paragraph 5 of that affidavit contains a  37 description of the boundary doesn't it?  38 A   Yes.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:   And did someone speak to you about preparing  40 this description of the boundary before this  41 commission?  42 MR. GRANT:  I'm not going to allow you to go into  43 solicitor-client --  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you.  45 MR. GRANT:  — discussions.  46 THE WITNESS:   I didn't understand what you said.  47 MR. MACKENZIE: 153  1 Q   Did you speak to someone other than Mr. Grant about  2 the description of this territory set out in the  3 affidavit?  4 A   I'll ask my interpreter, please.  I still don't  5 understand.  Yes.  6 MR. GRANT:  Do you want to translate what he said to you in  7 Wet'suwet'en just for the record?  8 THE INTERPRETER: She just asked me "Do I answer this in my own  9 language or in English?", and also she said that "He  10 helped me himself.", pointing at the lawyer.  11 MR. MACKENZIE: I see.  Yes.  We'll go off the record now to  12 change the tape.  13  14 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  15  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  17 Q   I'm looking at page 3 on Exhibit 4 and you understand  18 that that boundary description describes the  19 Madeek-Kanoots territory?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And that description is true as far as you're  22 concerned?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And have you read that description?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And that description says that the territory goes  27 along the Bulkley River; is that true?  28 A   Buck River, not Bulkley River.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:   I see.  30 MR. GRANT:  Where -- where are you referring to?  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  32 Q   I'm referring to the top sentence on page 3.  33 So the boundary does not go along the south bank  34 of the Bulkley River does it?  35 A   No, it's the Buck River.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:   Yes.  That's correct.  37 MR. GRANT:  I'd like the interpreter — I'd like the witness to  38 have an opportunity to read those first three lines  39 before you answer the question.  40 THE INTERPRETER: Do you want me to translate that to her?  41 THE WITNESS:   By reading some of it I can understand.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  We're on the record now, and Mr. Grant  43 asked that Mrs. Bazil read the first three lines on  44 page 3 of Exhibit 4, and Mrs. Bazil says she is having  45 a little difficulty understanding that, and I suggest  46 to Mr. Grant that there's no requirement for her to  47 read that to answer my question. 1 MR  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10 MR  11  12 MR  13 MR  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  154  GRANT:  Well, you referred to the three lines.  You asked  her a question, but you referred to the three lines on  that and I just think that if you refer to it that she  has an -- that she be given -- she did not read it  before she answered your question.  If you're  referring to a description which you just put to her  and then asking if it's right or wrong, I think it's  important that she have the opportunity to read it.  That's all I'm saying.  MACKENZIE: Yes, I agree, and I think you'll recall she said  she had read it.  GRANT:  She had read it before.  MACKENZIE:  Q   Yes.  And she swore it was true.  Now, further on in the description at the top of  page 3, Exhibit 4, at the sixth line from the bottom  it says the boundary goes from Morice Mountain down  the west -- west down the slope to meet the Wet'sen  kwe, Morice River, at a point opposite the mouth of  C'el tay toostaan kwe, Houston Tommy Creek.  From here  it goes north along the east bank of Wet'sen kwe to  the starting point.  Now, your territory doesn't include the Morice  River does it?  It doesn't go to the Morice River does it?  So that description is incorrect, right?  And in your evidence today you've also told me  that Wid'uk ts'anlii, which is under "Creeks" on page  4 of Exhibit 4, Wid'uk ts'anlii, Peacock Creek, is not  in your territory is it?  A   It's outside.  Q   Yes.  And Wid'uk C'es is also outside your territory?  A   Yes.  Q   And Tsee dil k'un' is also outside your territory?  A   It's inside.  Dzel teel k'un, that's inside the  territory.  Q   Are you missing these words now?  Tsee dil k'un' is red mountain; correct?  A Below the mountain. Like it's -- the mountain's going  up, but it's below it.  That's called Dzel teel k'un.  Q Yes. Okay. We're not talking about that, if I may --  if I may say that. We're talking about Tsee dil k'un'  the red mountain, correct, near Houston?  A   Oh, Tsee dil k'un'.  A  No.  Q  No.  A  No.  Q  No.  A  Yes  Q  Yes 155  1 Q   Yes.  2 A   Yeah, that's outside.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:   That's outside your territory?  4 MR. GRANT:  Well, just a moment.  She said -- when you said the  5 word "Tsee dil k'un'", she said that is below the  6 mountain and that's --  7 THE WITNESS:   No, I thought he said Dzel teel k'un, but he's  8 talking about Tsee dil k'un'.  9 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  I want for sure, and if necessary to go off  10 the record, I want you to have the spellings of those  11 two names if you can, Mr. Mitchell, before we go any  12 further.  13 Can you go off the record for a moment?  14  15 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  16  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  18 Q  Okay.  Can we go back on the record?  Thank you for  19 clearing that up.  I'll see if I can clear it up  20 myself a little bit more.  Thank you. We -- I did not  21 pronounce the name correctly and I'm going to ask that  22 question again.  23 Mrs. Bazil, Tsee dil k'un' is red mountain near  24 Houston; correct?  25 A Yes.  26 Q And that's not in the territory, is it?  27 A No.  28 Q But it appears on page 4 of Exhibit 4; correct?  29 A Yes.  30 Q Yes.  So the affidavit is incorrect when it includes  31 those sites which are not in the territory, right?  32 A   Yes.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:   Okay.  That's all I have to say now.  34  35 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO NOVEMBER 26, 1987)  36  37 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  38 a true and accurate transcript of the  39 proceedings herein transcribed to the  40 best of my skill and ability.  41  42  43 Tanita S. French  44 Official Reporter  45  46  47 156  1  2 November 26, 1987  3 Smithers, B.C.  4  5 LUCY BAZIL, Witness, Previously sworn;  6 GEORGE HOLLAND, Interpreter, Previously sworn;  7  8 MR. GRANT:  Before you start, Mr. Mitchell did express some  9 concern regarding getting the spellings of the words  10 and I've encouraged him, and when necessary the court  11 reporter, to interject.  It's probably easier for Mr.  12 Mitchell to interject than the court reporter, but to  13 stop it when a lot of Wet'suwet'en words are given  14 either by the lawyers or by the interpreter so that we  15 can endeavour to have a correct transcript with the  16 correct spellings.  I think late yesterday was an  17 example of where this different -- very different  18 words that sound the same, and it's hard for the  19 reporter to get them.  And I would encourage this of  20 all counsel, including myself, to encourage that  21 practise and Mr. Mitchell can interrupt.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  23 Q   Very good.  So let's start Mr. Mitchell off.  Mrs.  24 Bazil, yesterday you spoke about Taan deet didn't you?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And that's a lake east of Buck Flats; correct?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Got the spelling for that?  And John Namox is on the  29 other side of Taan deet; correct?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And north of John Namox east of Buck Creek is Wah tah  32 kwets; correct?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   Okay.  And who in Wah tah kwets holds that territory?  35 A   I understand it was Ah k'ot.  36 Q   And who is the person who holds the name Ah k'ot?  37 A   Right now it's hold by Sarah Tait's grand-daughter.  I  38 don't know her name, a young girl.  39 Q   Have we got the spelling for that?  And yesterday we  40 also spoke about your brother Peter Jim.  He holds the  41 registered trap line at Quick doesn't he?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And your son Roger Bazil is a member of a registered  44 trap line near McDonnell Lake too isn't he?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And John Namox is the registered owner of that trap  47 line; correct? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  157  Yes.  Now, yesterday you spoke about your visit to the Ts'un  c'os 'aay in 1983 didn't you?  Yes.  Do you have the spelling for that?  And you also had a  brief visit about 1977 didn't you?  Yes.  And at that time you saw that there were many fences  and "No Trespassing" signs along the road didn't you?  Yes.  And you know that several people have private property  along that road don't you?  Yes.  Yes.  Now, Taniits ts'anlii is where your father's  cabin was isn't it?  Yes.  And Neen lii, the waterfall, is south of that point  isn't it?  Yes.  And Neen lii, the waterfall, is about eight miles  south of your father's cabin; is that correct?  Yes.  Yes.  Now, between your father's cabin and the  waterfall there is a lot known as lot 6771, and the  present owner of that lot is Mr. Carl Holenstin,  H-o-l-e-n-s-t-i-n.  Do you know Mr. Holenstin?  No.  Mr. Holenstin became the registered owner of that lot  in August 1980.  Were you aware of that?  No.  Now, that lot was originally granted by the province  of British Columbia to a private owner in 1929.  Were  you aware of that?  No.  No.  And as far as you know Carl Holenstin didn't seek  permission from Madeek-Kanoots to buy that property  did he?  I don't think so.  I never heard of it.  Now, just next to Mr. Holenstin's lot is lot 6420,  that's the next one north, and it's owned at present  by Mr. and Mrs. Farris.  Do you know them?  No.  No.  They became registered owners of that lot in  August 1975.  Were you aware of that?  No.  And they did not seek permission of Madeek-Kanoots to  purchase that property did they? 158  1 A   No.  2 Q   That lot 6420 was originally granted by the Crown to a  3 private owner in 1919.  You weren't aware of that were  4 you?  5 A  Well, there was -- all the properties I seen at the  6 time I grew up there, there was lot of properties, old  7 houses, people left it already.  It's been used, but  8 it's -- people left already.  And earlier I said  9 there's only two families that I remember was still  10 there, as I remember, was Dick Hayes towards Houston,  11 and then Lapelles.  That's the only two families I  12 remember, but there was many houses and all fence all  13 rotten down all along the river.  I can't count them,  14 there was quite a few, but I don't remember the names.  15 There was been used already as I remember.  16 MR. GRANT:  I think to be fair to the witness if you're asking  17 her if she knew about a Crown grant in 1919 or 1928,  18 it is only fair to give the witness the name of the  19 person because she has given the name of two people  20 already.  That's the only -- you've done that with  21 respect to the recent purchases, but not with respect  22 to the original ones.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  24 Q   Okay.  You don't know the names of people who own  25 property along Buck Creek Road except for Mr. Hayes  26 and Lapelle do you?  27 A   I seen them.  28 Q   Yes?  29 A   Those two families I seen them.  30 Q   Yes.  That's right.  31 A  My father used to trade with them with milk, butter,  32 and things like that.  33 Q   Yes.  34 A  And he even help them clear lands and bring up hay.  35 He helps them, and we all there with him.  And there's  36 some names, I remember my mother used to mention  37 names, was one -- one place above us.  There was a  38 bridge going across.  There was a -- it's been a farm,  39 and his house was still there, and he said used to be  40 Alec McKay's.  And there was two McKay's.  I guess  41 there was two brothers, one was below us and one was  42 above us.  That's the name I remember that my mother  43 mentioned.  And as you go by this is Alec McKay's.  44 They call the place "McKay's place".  45 Q   And Mr. McKay owned that property?  46 A   He did at the time, but he wasn't there when I  47 remember it. 159  1 Q   Yes.  Now, between Neen lii and Taniits ts'anlii there  2 are approximately six district lots that were surveyed  3 in 1916.  Now, were you aware of the surveys of those  4 lots?  5 A   I didn't -- I didn't see the surveys, but there was  6 all along that area being used.  7 Q   Yes.  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And the surveyors didn't seek permission from  10 Madeek-Kanoots did they?  11 A   I don't think so.  I don't know about that.  12 Q   Now, from your father's cabin north to the bridge, and  13 there is a bridge across the creek just north of your  14 father's cabin, two or three miles north?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Yes.  There are four district lots, lot 5208, 5207,  17 5203 and 5202.  They were surveyed in 1913 and 1916,  18 and were you aware of the details of those surveys?  19 A   I didn't know nothing --  2 0 MR. GRANT:  What do you mean?  21 THE WITNESS: -- about the surveys, but there was people along  22 there.  23 MR. GRANT:  Just -- just a moment.  I -- two points, and I'm  24 going to start to object more if you're continuing  25 this approach.  Number one is, is that if you intend  26 to -- if you are giving evidence which is in this last  27 series of questions you've been doing, you've been  28 giving extensive evidence as to dates of surveys,  29 passes of property and those types of things, then if  30 you want to leave yourself -- if you intend to give  31 evidence, that's fine.  We can enter into a  32 cross-examination of yourself, but I object to you  33 setting out evidence endeavouring to -- putting out a  34 series of facts as evidence to this witness and  35 then -- I think that the formulation of your questions  36 is wrong, and what I'm saying is, is that you give  37 four to five statements of fact, and then you ask the  38 witness if they know about one of those statements of  39 fact.  I don't object to you asking the witness if  40 they know if there was a survey done or something like  41 that, but I object to you setting out a whole series  42 of facts and then asking them only about one of the  43 facts, the witness.  44 And secondly, I would -- there was the -- the  45 framing up of that last question was objectionable and  46 you said -- I think you asked, if I recall correctly,  47 what were the details of the survey.  I don't know 160  1 what you mean, and I don't know how the witness can  2 answer what you mean by "details of the survey".  You  3 may mean where they walked, you may mean many things,  4 Mr. Mackenzie, but I think you should be more precise  5 with what you mean in fairness to the witness.  6 MR. MACKENZIE: Well, Mr. Grant, that's the purpose of these  7 questions, as you know.  We're going to be proving  8 this information and as you know we're giving the  9 witness a chance to indicate whether she's aware of  10 any of these things, and whatever she understands by  11 the word "detail" she can answer, and that's all that  12 I'm asking, is whether she's aware of these things.  13 And if you want me to go through each lot, then I'd be  14 happy to do so, but I'm trying to assist you and  15 expedite the progress of the commission to get through  16 a lot of material that may not be necessary to go  17 through each fact in detail.  18 MR. GRANT:  No, I'm not — I understand that.  And what you do  19 though is you give a whole series of facts and then  20 only ask her about one fact.  The fact that you want  21 to ask her about is the fact you should put forward.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  23 Q  Okay.  Let's try and do it then.  I'll see if I can --  24 I'll see if I can put the information in the way that  25 will enable the commission to proceed and to respond  26 to your objections.  27 Now, Mrs. Bazil, just north of lot 6420 there is a  28 district lot number 6419.  Are you aware of that  29 district lot?  30 A   Numbers I can't recall that.  31 Q   You're not aware of the numbers of the district lots?  32 A   No.  No.  33 Q   No.  I'm instructed that Mr. and Mrs. Robinson own  34 that district lot now.  Do you know them?  35 A   No.  36 Q   No.  I'm instructed that they purchased that in  37 September 1977.  Were you aware of that?  38 A   No.  39 Q   And they didn't seek permission, to your knowledge,  40 from Madeek-Kanoots did they?  41 A   No.  42 Q   Now, that lot 6419 I'm instructed was granted by the  43 Crown in 1959 to a private purchaser.  Were you aware  44 of that Crown grant?  45 A   No.  4 6 Q   No.  And to your knowledge the government didn't seek  47 the permission of Madeek-Kanoots to grant that lot 161  1 6419 did they?  2 A   No.  I don't know anything about that.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:   Well, Mr. Grant, I'm going to ask a question  4 now and I'm going to invite you to consider it as a  5 way of expediting this section of the  6 cross-examination.  7 Would it be fair to say, Mrs. Bazil, that you do  8 not have knowledge of the purchases of private  9 property along Buck Creek by people from the  10 provincial government and from other owners of the  11 territory?  12 MR. GRANT:  Just before —  13 THE WITNESS:   I don't quite —  14 MR. GRANT:  Just wait a minute, Mrs. Bazil.  Don't answer right  15 away, please.  In what period?  16 MR. MACKENZIE: The period to which I'm referring is the period  17 from the time of the first Crown grant -- correction,  18 from the first surveys in 1913 to the present day.  19 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Before you answer that question, Mrs. Bazil,  20 I don't object to you using that type of framework,  21 but what I do think is that the way you framed it up  22 is it's about three -- I think you should break it up  23 into about three to four questions.  You've combined  24 surveys from 1913 -- or from 1913 to the present,  25 that's one thing, but you've also combined purchases  26 of private property from the Provincial Crown or from  27 private owners, and those are two separate things.  28 And I also think to be fair to the witness you  29 would -- it would be reasonable for you to break it up  30 into time periods which encompass parts of her life  31 such as until say 1936 or 1937 when she was growing up  32 there and then after that.  That's all I'm suggesting.  33 Other than that I understand you're trying to  34 expedite, but I don't think it's fair to give the  35 witness what in effect is about two to three questions  36 in one.  That's my only concern.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  38 Q   Thank you.  Now, Mrs. Bazil, I'll rephrase that  39 question.  You've agreed with me that you're not  40 familiar with the numbers of the district lots along  41 Buck Creek; is that correct?  42 A   Yes. I don't know any of them.  43 Q   And would you agree with me also that you do not know  44 any of the people who presently own land along Buck  45 Creek?  4 6 A   Today you mean?  47 Q   Yes. 162  1 A   No.  None of them I know.  2 Q   And would it be also fair to say that, to your  3 knowledge, none of the people who presently own land  4 along Buck Creek sought permission from Madeek-Kanoots  5 to purchase that land?  6 A   I don't know nothing about that either.  7 Q   Now, Mrs. Bazil, you were on the area of your father's  8 cabin from about the time -- from about 1920 to about  9 1936; is that correct?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Each year while you were growing up, yes?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And at that time it's fair to say you weren't aware of  14 the numbers of the district lots along the Buck Creek  15 were you?  16 A  Well, actually the truth I never been to school, as I  17 said earlier, and things like that I never look into  18 it because I don't know anything about numbers.  19 Q   I understand.  And during those years that you were  20 growing up at your father's cabin in that area, is it  21 fair to say that you did not know any details of  22 the -- I'm sorry, I'll rephrase that question.  23 During the time that you were growing up near Buck  24 Flats, you never saw any documents relating to grants  25 by the Provincial Crown of land to private owners  26 along the creek did you?  27 A   No.  28 Q   And is it fair to say also that during the time you  29 were on the territory that people who purchased land  30 along Buck Creek from the government didn't come to  31 your father for permission is that true?  32 A   Yes.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:   So they didn't seek permission from your father  34 did they?  35 MR. GRANT:  Well, just a moment.  I think here you should, if  36 you're referring to specific persons -- you've now  37 described that she -- she doesn't know who owned --  38 who purchased land.  She doesn't know who the crown  39 granted it to and now you say these people who she  40 doesn't know who they are didn't come to her father.  41 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes.  42 MR. GRANT:  I think — I think that that's an impossible  43 question for her to answer. She --  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, that's —  45 MR. GRANT:  If you tell her who you're referring to then she can  4 6 tell you whether they came.  47 MR. MACKENZIE: 163  1 Q   I see.  Yes.  Well, perhaps I could rephrase that  2 question, Mr. Grant, to assist you.  3 And is it fair to say that during those years you  4 were growing up at your father's cabin, the people who  5 purchased land along Buck Creek did not come to your  6 father for permission to purchase the land did they?  7 A   No.  8 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  My objection stands to that question  9 because you again have not given any specifics as to  10 who these people were and she's made it clear she  11 doesn't know who these people are, so I don't know how  12 she can answer the question.  13 MR. MACKENZIE: I wonder if — I wonder if we could move the  14 commission along by having you object and perhaps have  15 her answer the question and then you'd have the  16 opportunity to argue the admissibility at trial?  17 MR. GRANT:  Well, I'm clearly going to argue the admissibility  18 of that last answer.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Okay.  Although perhaps —  20 MR. GRANT:  I'm proposing —  21 MR. MACKENZIE: Why don't we have the — for the first objection,  22 why don't you -- I appreciate getting your response  23 and your reason, and then perhaps the next objections,  24 if it's for the same reason, you could say that, and I  25 could consider whether I wanted to rephrase the  26 question or not.  27 MR. GRANT:  Well, you have endeavoured to rephrase some of the  28 questions and I appreciate that, but I'm saying to you  29 that I am not going to allow this witness to be  30 unfairly treated by being asked questions which it's  31 impossible for her to answer based on the answer she's  32 already given.  And that last question comes within  33 that category.  I encourage you to move the commission  34 along to take into account what I'm saying.  I do not  35 wish to block your questioning.  I would much rather  36 sit here remaining silent, but if the witness says she  37 doesn't know who these people are and then you ask her  38 "These people, whoever they are, didn't come to your  39 father?", then how can she know who you're referring  40 to?  41 MR. MACKENZIE: Fine.  42 MR. GRANT:  She has given evidence that a number of people came  43 to her father.  44 MR. MACKENZIE: I understand that.  I don't agree with — that  45 she's given that evidence, but I understand your  46 point, and I do want to say in response to your  47 comments that I think that characterizing any 164  1 questions here or any intention to unfairly treat or  2 to treat unfairly the witnesses is not a proper  3 characterization and certainly no one intends to do  4 that and we understand that you'll be protecting the  5 witness as well.  6 MR. GRANT:  That's why I must maintain the objections when I see  7 that happening.  8 MR. MACKENZIE: No intention at all to treat anyone unfairly I'm  9 sure you --  10 MR. GRANT:  I'm not suggesting there's any mens rea here, Mr.  11 Mackenzie.  Do you need a pause off the record?  12 MR. MACKENZIE: Beg your pardon?  13 MR. GRANT:  I just thought you needed a pause to look for  14 something.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  16 Q   No, that's fine.  17 Now, Mrs. Bazil, I'm instructed that Mr. and Mrs.  18 Rapp in 1982 received a water licence number C59078 to  19 take water from Buck Creek.  Do you know anything  20 about that?  21 A   No.  22 Q   And Mr. and Mrs. Rapp, who live at lot 5202, do you  23 know anything about them?  24 A   No.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:   No.  They —  26 MR. GRANT:  Is that lot in the Buck Creek area?  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  28 Q   Yes.  Yes.  It's just north of -- it's just at the  29 south bridge just north of your father's cabin.  30 And Mr. and Mrs. Rapp apparently -- well, in fact  31 are using this water for irrigation purposes.  Do you  32 know anything about that?  33 A   No.  34 Q   No.  Now, in 1977, May 1977, I'm instructed that Mr.  35 and Mrs. Goldecker, G-o-l-d-e-c-k-e-r, applied for and  36 received a water licence number C58350 to take water  37 from Hoist, H-o-l-s-t, Brook.  Do you know anything  38 about that?  39 A   No.  40 Q   And that is for domestic use in their home on lot  41 5198.  Do you know anything about that?  42 A   No.  43 MR.  MACKENZIE:   No.  And to your knowledge neither Mr. and  44 Mrs. Rapp nor Mr. and Mrs. Goldecker sought permission  45 from Madeek-Kanoots to obtain this water licence, did  46 they?  47 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  I'd ask you to rephrase that 165  1 question because the answer won't make any sense how  2 you've asked it.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  4 Q   Yes.  To your knowledge Mr. and Mrs. Rapp didn't seek  5 permission from Madeek-Kanoots to obtain a water  6 licence for Buck Creek water did they?  7 A   I never heard anybody mention that to me so I don't  8 know.  9 Q   And to your knowledge Mr. and Mrs. Goldecker did not  10 seek permission from Madeek-Kanoots to obtain a water  11 licence for Hoist Brook water did they?  12 A   No.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:   Got that name?  H-o-l-s-t-.  14 MR. GRANT:  What was the spelling of Rapp?  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  16 Q   R-a-p-p.  I'm instructed in 1975 Mr. and Mrs. Hall  17 sought and obtained water licence number C47327 to  18 take water from Hall Brook.  Do you know anything  19 about that?  2 0 A   No.  21 Q   And they used that water for domestic purposes on lot  22 5201.  Are you aware of that?  23 A   No.  24 Q   And Mr. and Mrs. Hall did not seek permission from  25 Madeek-Kanoots to obtain a water licence for Hall  26 Brook water did they?  27 A   I don't think so.  I never heard of anything like  28 that, so I don't know.  29 Q   And there are several other water licences in the Buck  30 Creek area.  Do you know about the water licences  31 obtained in the Buck Creek area?  32 A   No.  33 MR. GRANT:  What —  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  35 Q   And to your knowledge people applying for water  36 licences in Buck Creek did not come to Madeek-Kanoots  37 did they for permission?  38 A   I never heard of, so I don't know.  39 Q   Now, in your evidence you spoke about logging in the  40 Buck Creek area didn't you?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   Yes.  There's been quite a lot of logging down there  43 hasn't there?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And there was logging south of your father's cabins  46 when you were young, wasn't there?  47 A   No. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  166  There wasn't any logging during those days?  When I was young there was no logging.  So all the logging that's taken place as far as you  know took place after you were there?  Yes.  Yes.  Now, about two miles south of your father's cabin  there's a lot number 6417.  Now, you don't know the  details -- I'm sorry, you don't know about that lot do  you?  About how far?  Lot 6417 was about two miles south of your father's  cabin?  South?  Towards Neen lii?  It sounds like the one that I mentioned was AI McKay  there I remember a lot time ago, but there was nobody  there.  Yes?  Just a house.  There was a big barn there and a road  too.  Well, the point that I'm going to get to is that there  was a timber sale licence issued to Haftner,  H-a-f-t-n-e-r, Enterprises of Houston to log just near  lot 6417.  Are you aware of that timber sale licence?  No.  The timber sale licence number is A21522.  Does that  mean anything -- are you familiar with that number?  No.  And right next to that timber sale licence there's  another timber sale licence number A21520 issued to  Mr. A.W. Cowan, C-o-w-a-n, of Burns Lake.  And do you  know about that timber sale licence?  No.  And that permits Mr. Cowan to log about 17 hectares of  land in that area, and you're not aware of that, are  you?  No.  To your knowledge neither -- to your knowledge Haftner  H-a-f-t-n-e-r, Enterprises did not seek permission  from Madeek-Kanoots to conduct logging?  No.  In that area did they?  No.  And to your knowledge Mr. Cowan did not seek  permission from Madeek-Kanoots to conduct his logging  operations under timber sale licence A21520 did he?  No. 167  1 Q   Would it be fair to say that you are not aware of the  2 timber sale licences issued to various people to log  3 along Buck Creek since you left the territory in 1936?  4 A   I'll take interpreter for that, please.  Well, I said  5 no all the way.  I don't know nothing about it.  6 Q   And the companies who obtained those timber sale  7 licences did not apply to Madeek-Kanoots for  8 permission to conduct their logging operations did  9 they?  10 A   I don't know anything about all that because I never  11 heard from Kanoots or Madeek.  They would have  12 mentioned it to me if they did.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:   Now, Mrs. Bazil, are you aware that there has  14 been prospecting and mineral exploration in the area  15 around your father's territory?  16 MR. GRANT:  What -- can you be more precise when you say the  17 area around her father's territory?  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  19 Q   Are you aware that there's been prospecting and  20 mineral exploration within the area described in your  21 affidavit?  22 A   There was one I remember was there.  He used to have a  23 little cabin by Bob Creek out on the highway.  His  24 name was Bill James.  He was a prospector I remember.  25 Q   Did he prospect on the territory do you know?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Did you see him?  28 A   I see him.  Yes.  I saw him.  29 Q   Well, at where Bob Creek comes into Buck Creek there  30 is a placer mining lease number 1894 issued to Mr.  31 Arthur J. Gates, G-a-t-e-s.  Do you know about that  32 lease?  33 A   I remember there's a mine there that was just about  34 finished I think when I remember that, but I didn't  35 know the names or anything like that.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  And as far as placer mining lease number 1894  37 and Mr. Gates, you weren't aware of that particular  38 lease were you?  39 MR. GRANT:  I just — I object.  I think the question's unfair.  40 She says that there was a mine there that she knew of.  41 Now, you've asked her about two questions.  You've  42 asked her about a placer mining number, and she hasn't  43 referred to any placer mining numbers, and you've  44 asked her about a Mr. Gates.  45 MR. MACKENZIE: Thank you.  46 MR. GRANT:  And you haven't — I think you should give her the  47 opportunity -- 168  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  2 MR. GRANT:  — to explain what —  3 MR. MACKENZIE: Thank you.  4 MR. GRANT:  She said she knows about a mine.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  6 MR. GRANT:  She may know about that placer licence --  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you.  8 MR. GRANT:  -- but by referring to it by licence numbers --  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you.  10 MR. GRANT:  — it's being unfair to her.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  12 Q   Thank you.  Okay.  Are you aware of placer mining  13 lease number 1894?  14 A   No.  15 Q   And do you know Mr. Arthur J. Gates?  16 A   No.  17 Q   Are you aware that he was drilling on his placer  18 mining lease in August 1983?  19 A   I never -- I don't -- I don't know about anything like  20 that either.  21 Q   And to your knowledge Mr. Gates did not seek  22 permission from Madeek-Kanoots to drill in August 1983  23 did he?  24 A   I never heard of, so I don't know.  25 Q   Now, you remember the lake called K'en kia ben?  26 A   K'en kia ben, yes.  27 Q   Got the name for that and spelling?  That's near the  28 beaver swamp isn't it?  29 A   Yes, not too far from there.  30 Q   Now, just east of that lake Mr. Westguard has a  31 mineral claim record number 1245.  Do you know  32 anything about that mineral claim?  33 A   No.  34 Q   And he's named that claim IRK7.  Are you aware of  35 that?  36 A   No.  37 Q   Now, in July 1982 Mr. Westguard dug backhoe test pits  38 and constructed a trail 1,300 metres and also dug  39 trenches.  Were aware of that activity?  4 0       A   No.  41 Q   And from July to October 1985 Mr. Westguard built a  42 road in that area and used a cat, skidder and backhoe.  43 Were you aware of that activity?  44 A   No.  45 Q   From October to November 1986 Mr. Westguard was  46 drilling and blasting on that claim.  Were you aware  47 of that activity? 169  1 A   No.  2 Q   And to your knowledge Mr. Westguard did not seek  3 permission from Madeek-Kanoots to conduct those  4 activities did he?  5 A   I don't think so because I never heard of.  6 Q   Now, in 1980 -- correction, in June 1976 Mr. James  7 McAusland, capital M-c, capital A-u-s-1-a-n-d, applied  8 for and located a claim number 317.  Are you aware of  9 that?  10 A   No.  11 Q   Now, I'm instructed that's in the area of Buck Creek  12 and that the name of that claim is Godfrey,  13 G-o-d-f-r-e-y.  Do you know about that claim?  14 A   No.  15 MR. GRANT:  What number was it?  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  17 Q   Record number 317 and the claim name is Godfrey,  18 G-o-d-f-r-e-y.  And from August to September 1984 Mr.  19 McAusland was drilling on that site.  Were you aware  20 of that activity?  21 A   No.  22 Q   Now, to your knowledge Mr. McAusland did not seek  23 permission from Madeek-Kanoots to record that claim  24 did he?  25 A   No, not to my knowledge.  2 6 Q   To your knowledge Mr. McAusland did not seek  27 permission from Madeek-Kanoots to conduct the drilling  28 operations did he?  2 9 A   No.  30 Q   So would it be fair to say, Mrs. Bazil, that you are  31 not aware of the record numbers of the mineral claims  32 in the territory described in your affidavit?  33 A   No.  34 Q   Would it also be fair to say that you are not aware of  35 the mining exploration and activity conducted on those  36 mineral claims, apart from the one you mentioned in  37 the territory described in your affidavit?  38 A   I'll take interpreter again, please.  39 MR. MACKENZIE: Perhaps I could rephrase that.  I think the  40 question's so long probably --  41 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  43 Q   Within the territory described in your affidavit it's  44 fair to say you're not aware of the exploration  45 activity on the claims located there?  46 A  All the new ones there?  47 Q   Yes. 1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  16  A  17 MR.  GRANT  18  19  20  21  22  23  2 4 MR.  macke:  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  170  I don't know anything of those.  I'm instructed that in Buck Flats along Buck Creek  there are several grazing permits issued to land  owners.  Do you know about the grazing permits?  No.  To your knowledge the holders of the grazing permits  along Buck Creek did not seek permission from  Madeek-Kanoots for those grazing permits did they?  No, I don't think so.  And I understand that there are several communication  sites located in the territory and they're shown on --  they're referred to in certain maps which have been  exhibited at the trial, but I understand one of those  sites can be described as capital VGH602.  Are you  aware of a communication site known as VGH602?  No.  :  Before you -- before you answer that, I'd like it if  you would explain what you mean by "communication  site".  The witness may know something about these or  may not, I don't know, but I don't think it's fair to  say a communication site number such-and-such.  I  don't think anyone can answer that unless they just  read it in the paper or look on the maps.  JZIE:  Are you aware that there are communications towers  located in different places in the territory described  in your affidavit?  No.  So from that answer I take it that to your knowledge  the owners of any such sites didn't seek permission  from Madeek-Kanoots to build their sites -- to build  those towers?  I don't know.  I don't hear it so I don't know it.  Now, I'm instructed that there's been approximately  132 hectares of reafforestation in the area described  in your affidavit.  Are you aware of that activity?  I'll ask the interpreter, please.  Well, I know  there's timbers cut down and then the people  replanting.  I hear about all that, but I don't know  exactly what.  And the people who -- to your knowledge the people  that replanted the trees did not discuss that with  Madeek-Kanoots did they?  No.  Now, are you aware that there are logging roads  constructed on the territory described in your  affidavit? 171  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   You've seen some of those logging roads driving down  3 the Buck Creek Road; correct?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And is it fair to say that to your knowledge people  6 who constructed those logging roads did not seek  7 permission from Madeek-Kanoots?  8 A   No.  9 Q   So it's fair to say that isn't it?  10 A   Yes.  11 MR. MACKENZIE: I think I'm almost finished my cross-examination,  12 Mr. Grant, and I wonder if we could have a short break  13 now to enable me just to review my notes, but I think  14 I'm finished with the exception of maybe two more  15 minutes.  16 MR. GRANT:  We'll go off the record.  17  18        (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR MORNING RECESS)  19  2 0        (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  21  22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Mrs. Bazil, my name is Marvyn Koenigsberg.  I'm here  representing the federal government and I'm going to  ask you some questions.  You've told us that you are a member of the House  of Wah tah kwets?  Yes.  And you are authorized to speak on behalf of that  house, although you do not hold the name Wah tah  kwets; is that true?  No.  What do you mean?  Say it again?  I'll ask it again.  Your chief's name is not Wah tah  kwets?  No.  And there is a Wah tah kwets alive today?  Yes.  And that's John Namox?  Yes.  But you are authorized to speak on behalf of the House  of Wah tah kwets; is that correct?  Yes.  Were you aware that Mr. Namox answered some questions  in writing called interrogatories?  I don't understand the question.  I'll ask the  interpreter, please.  Yes.  Okay.  Go ahead.  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  Q 172  1 A   I wasn't aware of that.  I was never told that he had  2 answered any questions in the interrogatories.  3 Q   Okay.  You've identified a genealogy chart which has  4 been marked as Exhibit 1 in these proceedings, and  5 would you put Exhibit 1 in front of the witness,  6 please?  And it is the genealogy of the House of Wah  7 tah kwets; is that correct?  8 A   Yes.  9 MS. KOENIGSBERG:   Just wait for a second and he'll put the  10 exhibit in front of you.  11 MR. GRANT:  Maybe because there were so many you can -- you  12 could explain this is the one that I showed to her in  13 direct examination.  14 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  15 Q   Mrs. Bazil, you were shown three genealogy charts in  16 the course of these proceedings.  Exhibit 1 is the --  17 what we have called the final copy and is the document  18 which was put to you by your counsel Mr. Grant in the  19 beginning of these proceedings; is that correct?  20 A   I'll ask the interpreter again. I only reviewed the  21 ones that -- that we worked on and that was the only  22 ones that I seen.  23 Q   Okay.  24 A   But you showed me other ones yesterday also.  25 Q   Yes.  Exhibit 1 on the first page shows Agnes and --  26 Agnes Tait and her children Ralph, Theresa, Eddy, and  27 Jerry; correct?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   And Theresa and Eddy's children Gordon and Sheldon  30 Tait; correct?  31 A   Yes, I believe so that.  32 Q   Okay.  And on a previous genealogy there was an error  33 which I believe you corrected showing other persons on  34 that same line, that is, the line of the Tait's.  Do  35 you remember that?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And it is the document that we're looking at, Exhibit  38 1, which is the corrected version of the genealogies;  39 is that correct?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And it is Exhibit 1 which you reviewed with Mr. Grant  42 before coming to the proceedings?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   Before starting this commission; correct?  45 A   Yes.  4 6 Q   Okay.  And it's your evidence that you reviewed no  47 other genealogical charts except Exhibit 1; is that 173  1 correct?  2 A   Yes.  3 MS. KOENIGSBERG:   Okay.  Were there any other persons than Mr.  4 Grant with whom you reviewed Exhibit 1 at any time?  5 MR. GRANT:  At the time she reviewed it with me?  6 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  7 Q   At any time?  8 A   I'll ask the interpreter again, please. The white lady  9 that I had mentioned yesterday was the one that asked  10 questions of me and she was the one that helped make  11 this genealogy chart.  12 Q   Okay.  And is that white lady's name Tonia Mills?  13 A   I believe so, yes.  14 Q   And she came to see you from time to time?  15 A   Twice I think.  16 Q   Twice.  Do you recall when that was?  17 A   Last summer.  18 Q   And she asked you questions about people in the House  19 of Wah tah kwets?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And she asked you questions about the relationships of  22 those people, one to another?  23 A   Yes.  2 4 Q   And by that I mean who was married to whom and what  25 their children's names were?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Did you see any other documents which look like the  28 chart which is Exhibit 1 before you saw Exhibit 1?  2 9 A   No.  30 Q   Okay.  To the best of your knowledge does Exhibit 1,  31 showing the House of Wah tah kwets, show all of the  32 members of the House of Wah tah kwets as of today?  33 A  As far as we remember who it is, yes.  34 Q   Did you have any discussions with John Namox about who  35 were members of the House of Wah tah kwets before this  36 commission?  37 A   No, I didn't.  38 Q   At no time did you discuss membership in the House of  39 Wah tah kwets with John Namox; is that correct?  40 A   I talk with him before, but I didn't speak with him  41 just before when we made this.  42 Q   Okay.  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   Could you tell me approximately when you talked with  45 him before?  46 A   It was springtime before that I -- we went through  47 this. 174  1 Q Last spring you spoke to John Namox about the  2 membership -- the members of the House of Wah tah  3 kwets?  4 A Every time I see him I talk about it.  5 Q All right.  6 A Not only the springtime, but every time I see him I --  7 he's older than me and I ask him for informations.  8 MS. KOENIGSBERG:   Okay.  And do you recall if you actually  9 spoke to him during the time that Tonia Mills came to  10 speak to you?  11 MR. GRANT:  What do you mean, at the same meetings?  12 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  See if she can answer.  13 MR. GRANT:  Well, no.  I object to it as it's framed.  14 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  15 Q All right.  I'll ask it again.  16 Did you speak to him about the membership in the  17 House of Wah tah kwets before you spoke to Tonia Mills  18 in the spring?  19 A No.  I said earlier I said I didn't speak with him  20 before that -- about it before.  21 Q Okay.  I'd like to ask you some questions about the  22 members of the House of Wah tah kwets and I'm going to  23 start with your children.  You have given birth to 15  24 children; is that correct?  25 A Yes.  26 Q And there are 12 of them living today?  27 A Yes.  28 Q Your first born is named Violet?  29 A Yes.  30 Q And she was born in about 1937?  31 A Yes.  32 Q And she is married to Werner Gellenbeck?  33 A Yes.  34 Q And he is a non-Indian?  35 A Yes.  36 Q And Violet had three children?  37 A Yes.  38 Q Who are of course your grandchildren?  39 A Yes.  40 Q And one of those grandchildren has had a child; is  41 that correct?  42 A Yes.  43 Q And therefore you have one great-grandchild?  44 A Yes.  45 Q From Violet?  46 A Yes.  47 Q Violet holds the name K'alaseet? 175  1 A K'alaseet, yes.  2 Q K'alaseet.  I have the spelling from the genealogy I  3 believe and it's spelled K-'-a-1-a-s-e-e-t.  4 Is that a chief's name?  5 A Yes.  6 Q And is that a chief's name in the House of Wah tah  7 kwets?  8 A Yes.  9 Q When did Violet receive that name?  10 A About the end of August.  11 Q Of this year?  12 A Yes.  13 Q Did Violet have a name in the House of Wah tah kwets  14 before August of this year?  15 A Yes.  16 Q What was that name?  17 A Dugh K'al'un.  18 Q Could we have a spelling for that?  19 A Dugh K'al'un.  20 MR. MITCHELL: Dugh K'al'un. D-u-g-h K-'-a-1-'-u-n.  That's  21 l-'-u-n.  22 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  23 Q Is that a chief's name in the House of Wah tah kwets?  24 A Yes.  25 Q When did Violet take that name?  26 A Around 1976.  27 Q Has she held any other chief's names?  2 8 A No.  29 Q Where does Violet and Werner Gellenbeck reside?  30 A She's in Terrace right now.  31 Q How long has she lived in Terrace?  32 A Since '70.  33 Q And does Violet have an occupation other than that of  34 a wife and mother?  35 A She works in the -- she works with the government.  36 Q Which government does she work for?  37 A I can't tell you that.  She works in the government --  38 with the government with the looking after the funding  39 for the Indian people. There's a name for it.  I can't  4 0 remember.  41 Q Where did Violet go to school?  42 A She started in Houston.  43 Q At the public school in Houston?  44 A Yes.  45 Q Did she go to school any place else?  46 A When we moved to Smithers she went to school in  47 Smithers. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  176  And did she graduate from high school in Smithers?  She didn't graduate.  Your next child was Herbie?  Yes.  And Herbie died in 1958?  Yes.  And your next child was Kenny?  Yes.  And he died in 1940?  Yes.  And did he die at birth or shortly thereafter?  Eighteen months old.  Your next child was Charlotte?  Yes.  And was she born in 1943?  Yes.  Okay.  And Charlotte was married to Alec Dennis?  Yes.  And Alec Dennis is a member of the Tsayu clan?  Yes.  And with Alec Dennis Charlotte had four children?  Yeah -- no, just one from him.  One child?  Yes.  And then did she marry Bill Euverman?  Yes.  Who's a non-Indian?  Yes.  And then did she marry Jerry Hale?  Yes.  And in the course of these three marriages she has had  four children all together?  Yes.  And of those four children, six grandchildren have  been born?  Yes.  Where does Charlotte reside now?  Prince George.  How long has she lived in Prince George?  Last ten years.  What occupation does Charlotte have other than that of  a wife and mother?  She's working for the government too.  Does she work for the same department of the  government as Violet?  As Violet does.  Yes.  Where did Charlotte go to school? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  177  In -- she started in Smithers.  Has she gone to any other school than Smithers?  No.  Before Charlotte moved to Prince George where did she  live?  Smithers.  Your next child is Cory?  Yes.  And she was born in 1945?  Yes.  And she is married to Barry Gould?  Yes.  And he is a non-Indian?  Yes.  And they have two children of that marriage?  Yes.  And they've adopted one child?  Yes.  And does Cory have a name --  Yes.  -- in the House of Wah tah kwets?  Yes.  And what is that name?  She's the one that took the name from Violet, the Dugh  K'al'un.  Dugh K'al'un?  Yes.  Is that the only name in the House of Wah tah kwets  which she has held?  Yes.  And when did she take that name?  19 -- two years ago I think.  And does Cory live in Houston now?  Yes.  How long has she lived in Houston?  Since she got married, 1964 I think.  And does Cory have an occupation other than that of  wife and mother?  She's not -- she's a housewife right now.  Has she worked outside the home?  Yes, before that.  What did she do?  She was a nurse and --  Does she have formal nurse's training?  Practical nurse.  Where did Cory go to school?  Victoria. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16 THE :  INT]  17 MS. :  KOEI  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  178  When did she go to school in Victoria?  I can't remember the years.  She was in grade 11.  After she finished 11 that's when she left.  I can't  remember what year.  All right.  And she took any nurse's training in  Victoria?  Yes.  Your next child is Roger?  Yes.  And Roger was born in 1946?  Yes.  And he holds the name Ts'alaas?  Yes.  How close did I come?  Ts'alaas. Pretty close.  PRETER: T-s-'-a-1-a-a-s.  5SBERG:  And what is Roger's occupation?  He's a carpenter.  Where does he live?  He's in Moricetown right now.  How long has he lived in Moricetown?  About two months.  Where did he live before that?  Terrace.  And how long has he lived in Terrace?  About three years.  Is Roger married?  Yes.  And does he have children?  Four.  And do any of those children have children?  No.  If you would look at -- in the Exhibit 1, pages 5 and  6?  Five and six.  If there's a way to put those together, I think it's  easier to read.  Pages 5 and 6 I believe contain --  show you -- you and your first husband Frank Bazil and  then all of your children and I've been — I've been  asking you about your children as best I could in the  order in which they're shown on this genealogy and  when I get to Roger he's not shown as married.  Do you  see that?  On page 5 on the extreme right he's the  last person on that line on page 5.  Do you see it,  "Roger"?  Yes. 179  1 MS. KOENIGSBERG:   And should there be a sign there showing  2 Roger as married?  3 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  I don't think that's a question for  4 the witness to answer whether or not this chart should  5 put a sign as him being married.  You can ask --  6 you've asked her whether he's married and she says  7 he's married.  It's not up to her how these charts are  8 drafted.  She didn't draft it.  9 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  10 Q All right.  Were you aware that this chart did not  11 show Roger as married?  12 A The reason his children are not on the House of Wah  13 tah kwets.  That's the reason I think.  14 Q And to whom is Roger married?  15 A A girl from Kamloops, Sharon, but they separated.  16 He's not with her.  17 Q All right.  Is she an Indian?  18 A Yes, part Indian.  19 Q Okay.  Your -- before Roger lived in Terrace for the  20 three years that he lived in Terrace where did he  21 live?  22 A Kamloops.  23 Q Okay.  And has he had other occupations than that of a  24 carpenter?  25 A No, that's all his life he's carpenter.  26 Q And where does he work as a carpenter?  27 A Wherever he gets a job.  Now there's none.  2 8 Q Okay.  And so when he was in Kamloops he worked as a  29 carpenter when he had --  30 A Yes.  31 Q -- work?  And the same in Terrace?  32 A Yes.  33 Q Your next child is Betty Ann?  34 A Yes.  35 Q And she was born in 1947?  36 A Yes.  37 Q And she was married to Tap Halonen?  38 A Yes.  39 Q And he died?  40 A Yes.  41 Q And Tap Halonen was a non-Indian?  42 A Yes.  43 Q And did they have two children?  44 A Yes.  45 Q And of those two children, two children have been born  46 of one of them?  Did any of those two children have  47 children? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  180  Yes.  And so you have great-grandchildren?  Yes.  From Betty Ann?  Yes.  And then Betty Ann married Tony Bob?  Yes.  And Tony Bob is a Taltan Indian?  Yes.  And where does Betty Ann live?  Kelowna right now.  How long has she lived in Kelowna?  Since last July.  And where did she live before that?  Creston.  And how long did she live in Creston?  Since -- they must have lived there about 20 years.  And does Betty and have an occupation other than that  of wife and mother?  Hairdressing.  And did she take her certificate as --  Yes.  -- a hairdresser?  Yes.  And did she take the -- where did she take her  training, do you know?  Vancouver.  And where did Betty Ann go to school?  Smithers.  Did she go to school any other place?  No.  And your next child is Neil?  Yes.  And he was born in 1949?  Yes.  And is Neil married?  No.  He never been married. He lived with a woman.  Does he have children?  Yes.  How many?  He's got two.  And where does Neil live?  He's in Vancouver right now.  And how long has he been in Vancouver?  A year.  Over a year now.  And where did he live before he moved to Vancouver?  Terrace. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  181  And how long was he in Terrace?  He was there the same time as I was in 1966.  And did he stay in Terrace until he moved to  Vancouver?  Yes.  And what is his occupation?  Carpenter too.  And did he work as a carpenter in Terrace?  Yes.  Your next child is Gerald?  Yes.  And he was born in 1950?  Yes.  And where does Gerald live?  Terrace.  How long has he lived in Terrace?  Since '66.  And what is his occupation?  He was just a labourer.  And did he go to school?  Yes.  Where?  In Smithers.  Did he also go to school in Terrace?  For one year.  Yes.  Is Gerald married?  No.  Does he have children?  One.  And your next child is Lillian?  Yes.  And she was born in 1951?  Yes.  And she is married to Dean Granley?  Yes.  And they have two children?  Yes.  And Dean Granley is a non-Indian?  Yes.  And they have one child?  Two from Dean Granley.  Two?  Yes.  And Lillian married again after Dean Granley?  No, just live with -- live with another man.  And that man is a non-Indian as well?  Yes. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  182  And they've had one child?  Yes.  And that is Christopher?  Yes.  Who's very young?  Yes, just last month.  And does Lillian have an occupation other than that of  wife and mother?  She's working for the government too.  Does she work in the same department as Violet and --  No, it's in different position.  Do you know what government she works for?  No.  Do you know the subject matter of what it is she  works?  She looks after the -- someone has been in jail for a  long time when they come out she's counselling.  She's  a counsellor for them.  And where did Lillian go to school?  In Smithers.  Did she go to school in any other place?  Part in Terrace too.  And where does Lillian live?  Port Coquitlam.  And how long has she lived there?  I'll say about ten years.  And did she live in Terrace before Port Coquitlam?  Yes.  Surrey.  First Surrey?  Yes.  And your next child is Marlene?  Yes.  Marlene was born in 1952?  Yes.  And is Marlene married?  No.  Does Marlene live with anyone?  She's living with somebody now.  All right.  And is that person a non-Indian?  Non-Indian.  And does Marlene have any children?  No.  Where does Marlene live?  Vancouver.  How long has she lived there?  About 25 years.  What is her occupation? 1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  183  She runs -- I can't remember the name of it.  It's  where they do make-up.  I can't remember that name.  The Touch of Beauty I think it's called.  And where did Marlene go to school?  Smithers.  Did she go to school any place else?  No.  Sandra is your next child?  Yes.  She was born in 1954?  Yes.  And she was married to Charles Robinson?  Yes.  And he is a Tsimshian Indian?  Yes.  And they had one child?  Yes.  And then she married Craig Small?  Yes.  And Mr. Small is a non-Indian?  Yes.  And they have one child?  Yes.  Where does Sandra live?  Calgary.  How long has she lived in Calgary?  A year now.  Where did she live before that?  Edmonton.  And how long did she live in Edmonton?  About two years.  Did she ever live with you in Terrace?  Yes.  For how long?  Sixty-six until she got married in -- I can't remember  what year she got married.  And did she leave home after she got married?  Yes.  She left home after she got married.  And did she leave Terrace?  Yes.  Where did she first go?  They live in Vancouver for a while.  And Sandra's occupation outside the home?  She's working in a bank.  Where did Sandra go to school?  Smithers and Terrace.  Your next child was Kenneth? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  184  Yes.  And Kenneth died?  Yes.  Your next child was Lawrence?  Yes.  He was born in 1958?  Yes.  Is Lawrence married?  No.  Does Lawrence have any children?  No.  Where does Lawrence live?  Vancouver right now.  How long has he lived in Vancouver?  Two years.  Where did he live before that?  Terrace.  Did he go to school in Terrace?  Yes.  Did he ever go to school in Smithers?  Yes.  What is Lawrence's occupation?  Carpenter too.  And has he worked as a carpenter in Terrace?  Yes.  And is he working as a carpenter in Vancouver?  Yes, but now he's going to school.  Where is he going to school?  In Vancouver somewhere.  I can't remember.  I never  been there so I don't know where he's going to school  as far as I know.  And your last born child is Dolores?  Yes.  And she was born in 1961?  Yes.  And she married Pat Martin?  They were not married.  They just lived together.  And he was a member of the Tsayu clan?  Yes.  And they had one child?  Yes.  And she is now married to a non-Indian?  Yes.  Not married again, it's just living again.  Okay.  And they've just had a child by the name of  Travis?  Yes.  Who is a beautiful baby? 185  1 A Yes.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:   Make a note of that.  3 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  4 Q We've all had the benefit of seeing Travis.  5 Where did Dolores go to school?  6 A Smithers and Terrace.  7 Q Where does Dolores live now?  8 A Terr -- Smithers, I'm sorry.  9 Q When did she move back to Smithers?  10 A After she graduated.  It was 1977.  11 Q Has she lived in Smithers since 1977?  12 A Yes.  13 Q Does she have an occupation other than that of --  14 other than that of wife and mother?  15 A Yeah, she was working for the Forestry for a long time  16 and now she's not working.  17 Q I would like to ask you questions about other members  18 of the House of Wah tah kwets.  We've covered quite a  19 few of them just in your own family.  20 Do you know Nora Tait?  21 A Yes.  22 Q Did you know Nora Tait?  23 A Yes.  24 Q She died?  25 A Yes.  26 Q When did she die?  27 A I'll say about two to three years ago.  28 Q Okay.  And she was married to Jerry Vantunen?  29 A Yes.  30 Q And they had 12 children to your knowledge?  31 A I know she has a lot of children, but I don't count  32 them, so --  33 Q All right.  There are 12 children shown on the  34 genealogy, you'll agree with that?  35 A I'll agree with that.  Yes.  I know she lost some of  36 them.  37 Q Yes.  And the genealogy shows that four of them died?  38 A Yes.  I believe that's right.  39 MS. KOENIGSBERG:   And let me ask you if you were asked by Tonia  40 Mills or anyone else your knowledge of the children of  41 Nora Tait and Jerry Vantunen?  42 MR. GRANT:  I object to that to the extent that it may include  43 discussions with her legal counsel.  44 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  45 Q Were you asked by anyone other than Mr. Grant about  46 who the children of Nora Tait and Jerry Vantunen were?  47 A They ask me, but what my answer was the Nora Tait 1  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  186  about that age I know them clearly and their children,  I know they have children, but I don't know them --  individual's names.  Yes.  For all of them.  All the chart is like that.  And it would be fair to say that you wouldn't have  been certain exactly how many children she had living?  Yes.  At the time that you were asked?  Yes.  But that you did know them?  I do know them, but I don't count them or -- by names.  Where did Nora Tait and Jerry Vantunen live before  Nora Tait died?  This side Moricetown.  Right.  And do you know any of Nora Tait's children  today?  Yes.  And do you know Darlene Tait?  Yes.  And she is the person who holds the name Ah k'ot?  Yes.  Did I come close?  Yes.  Ah k'ot.  And where does Darlene Tait live?  I can't tell you exactly now.  Okay.  Does she live in Moricetown?  She was going to school in Prince George the last I've  heard.  All right.  I don't know if she still is.  And do you know Diane Tait?  Yes.  And do you know where she lives?  Last I seen her was in Moricetown not too long ago.  Right.  So I don't know exactly if she lived there or not.  Or if she was just visiting?  Maybe.  Do you know Hank Vantunen?  Yes.  And do you know where he lives?  With his father yet.  Do you know Helen Tom?  Helen Tom? I never met her.  Okay.  Do you know Sarah Tom, or did you know Sarah  Tom? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  187  Yes.  And she's still alive?  Yes.  She was married to Pierre Tom?  Yes.  And he is dead?  Yes.  And they had a child Rosie Tom?  I don't know her children either.  All right.  We're talking about Sarah Tom's children?  Yes.  She has lot of children, but like I said I never  met them or talk with them or seen them.  Okay.  I know she has a lot of children too.  Okay.  The information on the genealogy on page 2, if  you look, you'll see about in the middle of the page,  close to the middle of the page, where Sarah Tom is?  Do you see her?  Yes.  And it shows that Rosie Tom, Gordon Tom, Bobby Tom,  Billy Tom, and Helen Tom appear all to be the children  of Sarah Tom and Pierre Tom?  I'm pretty sure they have.  Yes.  Okay.  But you didn't know that?  I know they have children.  Yes.  I know them.  Yes.  But like I say all the children that -- I never lived  close to them and I don't keep track.  Okay.  And it shows Helen Tom is married to Lawrence  Hallgren.  Did you know him?  No.  Did you know Veronica Jim?  Yes.  And she was married to Emil Larson?  Yes.  And did you know him?  Yes.  And they had children?  Yes.  What page are you on?  I'm sorry, I'm over on page 3.  Did you know Mable  Larson?  Yes.  And did you know Frank -- is it Mungex?  Frank Munger, yes.  It's an "r", not an "x" there? 188  Yes, it is.  Okay.  And you knew both of them?  Yes.  Where do they live?  Granisle.  And do you know any of their children?  The older ones.  That's the only one I know.  You would know Owen?  Owen, yes.  And do you know where Owen lives?  What did you say?  Do you know where Owen lives?  Burns Lake.  And did you know Dawn?  Yes.  And do you know where Dawn lives?  No.  Okay.  And do you know Louise Cunningham?  Yes.  And she is the daughter of Veronica and Emil?  Yes.  And where does Louise live?  Victoria.  Do you know her child Gordon?  Yes.  And we see -- if we turn over to page 4 we see your  brother Peter Jim on the extreme right-hand corner?  Yes.  Where does Peter Jim live?  Moricetown.  And Sarah Jim was your sister?  Yes.  And she's married to Simon Dennis?  Yes.  35 MS. KOENIGSBERG:   And they had —  36 MR. GRANT:  Page 7.  37 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  -- five children?  Yes.  And two of those children are dead?  Yes.  And did you know Barbara Ann Dennis?  Yes.  And she married William Naziel?  Yes.  And where do they live?  They're separated too.  She's in Houston.  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A 189  1 Q And do you know her children?  2 A Yes.  3 Q And do you know Gordie Naziel?  4 A Yes.  5 Q And where does Gordie live?  6 A With his father in Moricetown.  7 Q And do you know Wallace?  8 A Yes.  9 Q And where does Wallace live?  10 A Wallace I think is in Prince George.  11 Q And Stacey?  12 A In Prince George too, yes.  13 Q And is it Marcia or Marcia?  14 A Marcia, yeah.  15 Q And where does she live?  16 A All those four -- three girls they in Kelowna  17 somewhere.  They was taken away from her.  18 Q Okay.  That's Marcia, Mary and Agnes?  19 A Yes.  20 Q And there's a fourth girl on the genealogy and her  21 name is -- is it Charrine?  22 A Yes.  That's the baby.  23 Q I want to go back and ask you some questions about the  24 clan the Laksilyu clan.  There are three houses in the  25 Laksilyu clan?  26 A Yes.  27 Q Would you tell me the names, please, again?  28 A Kwen beegh Yex is for one Wah tah kwets' House.  29 Q Yes.  30 A Hagwilnegh, that's G'e neegh la yex.  And Wah tah  31 keght is Tse k'al k'a yex.  32 Q All right.  And who is the head chief in the -- I'm  33 going to try this -- Tse k'al k'a yex --  34 A Wah tah keght.  35 MS. KOENIGSBERG:   — House?  And could I have a spelling for  36 that?  37 MR. MITCHELL: Number 9 on the list.  Spelling for which?  38 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  39 Q Oh, I'm sorry.  Yes.  That's the house, the third  40 house?  41 A Yes.  42 Q And what is the name of the head chief in that house?  43 A Wah tah keght.  44 MR. MITCHELL: Number 6.  45 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  46 Q Have you heard the name -- I'm going to try this --  47 Mugh Lagh Legh, or it looks like "Max Lax Lex".  Mugh 190  1 Lagh Legh?  2 A   I heard the name, but I don't know who's holding it  3 right now.  4 Q   All right.  Is that a chief's name?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And in what house?  7 A   I can't remember.  That's what I just can't remember.  8 Q   As far as you know there is a person holding that  9 name?  10 A   Yes.  11 MR. MITCHELL: Excuse me.  How do you pronounce it?  12 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Mugh Lagh Legh.  13 MR. GRANT:  Go off the record.  14  15 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  16  17 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  18 Q   Are there crests for the House of Wah tah kwets?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   What are they?  21 A   Frog.  22 Q   And what is the crest for the house in which  23 Hagwilnegh is the chief?  24 A   It's the House of many eyes is -- the crest is the  25 eyes.  26 Q   And the house in which Wah tah keght is the head  27 chief?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   What is the crest?  30 A   I think the crest is caribou.  31 Q   I attempted to pronounce number six, and I'm sorry, I  32 missed -- I missed your answer of what the crest was,  33 the last one?  34 A   It's a caribou.  Dz'eeh.  35 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  And does the —  36 MR. GRANT:  Just —  37 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  38 Q   I'm sorry.  Does the Laksilyu clan have crests that  39 are particular to that clan?  4 0 A   I don't understand what you mean.  41 Q   Okay.  Does the Laksilyu clan have any crests?  42 A   They all have crests, yes.  43 Q   All right.  Are they -- are there any crests which are  44 only for the clan and not -- not identified with any  45 one of the houses within the clan?  46 A   I still don't understand.  I'll ask my interpreter.  47 Yes, there is lots more. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  Q  37  38  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  191  When I asked you what the crest or crests were for Wah  tah kwets you said frog?  Yes.  Are there any other crests in the House of Wah tah  kwets?  The -- each house they have a crest, so that frog is  Wah tah kwets' crest, house crest.  Okay.  And then there are crests in the — of the  clan, the Laksilyu clan?  Yes.  And they are different from the frog crest for  instance?  In a way.  Sometimes if you talk to someone they'll  say Laksilyu clan they're all frog tribes.  That's how  it works.  They'll be whole side of the wall in the  feast house they'll call Laksilyu.  It will be all  frog tribe, as they look at it fast way, but they all  have different houses and different crests.  Okay.  And Laksilyu means frog?  Yeah -- no, it doesn't mean frog, but it's -- I don't  know how to explain it.  Now, if I say I'm talking  about Laksilyu clan I'll say frog clan.  It's means  the whole works, just the -- and then when I say that,  it means the whole clan, and then -- then yet they  have different houses and they have different crests  for the house.  Okay.  So let me see if I can understand it this way.  The frog crest which you've referred to as belonging  to the House of Wah tah kwets --  Yes.  -- would also be a crest in the clan Laksilyu?  I'll ask my interpreter to explain it to me.  I just  finished telling you that each house have their own  crest and you keep asking me that same question all  the time.  That's true.  I'm trying to understand.  I'll leave  that.  I want to ask you, is there a particular story  or tradition that belongs to the House of Wah tah  kwets?  There is.  They have stories each one, but I can't  recall them now.  Okay.  There is a word I have heard called -- which  looks like Kun gax?  Kun gax.  Yes.  What does that mean?  That's what -- when they act out their crest when they  have feasts, Kun gax means they act out the animal 192  1 they have for their crest. That's what means Kun gax.  2 Q   All right.  So that Kun gax of Wah tah kwets acted out  3 at a feast would be the frog?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And for Tse k'al k'a yex?  6 A   Tse k'al k'a yex. Yes.  7 Q   It would be the caribou?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And so on?  10 A   Yes.  That's how -- that's what means Kun gax.  11 Q   Where did the -- where did the House of Wah tah kwets  12 come from?  13 A   It's a tradition from years back.  We don't know how  14 it started, but it's in the tradition from years and  15 years back and it's continue.  As a young generation's  16 born, they continue on their teaching.  Now if I'm  17 getting old -- now I'm getting older and older, so I  18 talk to my children about it and then they learn and  19 then when I'm gone they're going to do the same thing  20 as I'm doing and I did the same thing what my  21 ancestors taught me.  All the tribes they all doing  22 the same thing, it's just continue on going.  It never  23 end and we don't know how far back it start.  24 Q   Okay.  Do you have a story that -- or a history that  25 says where the first or original village where Wah tah  2 6 kwets was was?  27 A  Well, in years back I just can't talk about it because  28 I don't exactly know where it start from.  29 Q   Okay.  Is Wah tah kwets in -- now in Moricetown?  30 A   Yes.  31 MS. KOENIGSBERG:   And was there a place — do you know of any  32 story that talks about any place other than Moricetown  33 or the area of Moricetown?  34 MR. GRANT:  What do you mean by the area of Moricetown?  35 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  36 Q   Right around Moricetown, if it's not on the present  37 exact site of Moricetown?  38 A  Well, Moricetown before it was found there was a  39 village down beside Hagwilget called Dizkle and that  40 time they were mixed with Gitksan people, our  41 ancestors way back, and they had a village and log  42 houses and at Dizkle that's beside Hagwilget.  43 Q   Have you got the spelling for Dizkle?  44 A  Which called Mosquito Flat now which is called Dizkle  45 and they were mixed with Gitksan people and  4 6 Wet'suwet'en.  They all mixed at the time and then  47 they split up.  From there they move to Moricetown and 193  1 it's been located there since.  2 Q   Okay.  Is that Mosquito Flats the same place that you  3 told us that when you were first married you and your  4 husband went there and he cut poles?  5 A   Yes.  6 MR. GRANT:  This may be an appropriate time to break for lunch.  7 It's 12:30.  We've gone an extra half hour.  I think  8 the witness's indicated she's willing to break now.  9  10 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCHEON RECESS)  11  12 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  13  14 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  15 Q   This is tape 6 and it's a continuation of the  16 cross-examination of Lucy Bazil.  17 Mrs. Bazil, do you know Madeline Alfred?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And what is her chief's name?  20 A   Dz'eeh.  21 Q   Dz'eeh?  22 A   Dz'eeh.  23 Q   And what house is she in?  24 A   Tse k'al k'a yex.  25 Q   Is that number 9 on the word list, Mr. Translator?  26 A   I don't know I pronounce it right or not, but that's  27 how I pronounce it.  28 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, that's number 9.  2 9 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  30 Q   Is that known as the House on top of a flat rock?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Okay.  Now, earlier in your evidence you told us about  33 shortly after you were married and about 1937 or so  34 your husband was employed cutting poles.  Do you  35 recall that?  36 A   Yes.  Yes.  37 Q   And I understood you to say that he was employed by  38 both Big and Little Tommy Michell?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Do you know the house in which Big Tommy Michell is?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   What is that?  43 A   Tsayu.  44 Q   All right.  Is he in -- that's -- is Tsayu the name  45 for a clan?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Is there a house within that clan to which he would 194  1 belong, do you know?  2 A Yes.  3 Q Is -- which one is that?  4 A Tsayu.  5 Q All right.  Is Little Tommy Michell the same --  6 A No.  7 Q -- house?  8 A No.  9 Q All right.  Do you know what house in?  10 A G'e neegh la yex.  11 THE INTERPRETER:   Number 10.  12 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  13 Q And that is the House of many eyes?  14 A Yes.  15 MR. GRANT:  And Tsayu is 43.  16 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  17 Q You also told us that in the early part of your  18 married life you went in the summertime to Prince  19 Rupert and worked in the cannery; is that correct?  20 A Yes.  21 Q And your husband as well fished --  22 A Yes.  23 Q -- for the cannery?  24 A Yes.  25 Q When you were there were there other Wet'suwet'en  26 people there?  27 A Just a few.  28 Q Do you recall any of them by name?  29 A Pat Michell was one.  30 Q Yes.  And was he fishing for the cannery?  31 A Yes.  Tommy Tait was another one.  32 Q And he was fishing for the cannery?  33 A Yes.  34 Q Anyone else that you can think of now?  35 A Francis Alfred was one of them at the time.  36 Q Yes?  37 A And there was Louie Morris who was one of them too.  ]  38 think that's about all at that time.  39 Q All right.  After that time were there more people  40 that you knew who were Wet'suwet'en who were fishing  41 at the coast?  42 A Not very many after that.  That the year my husband  43 and I were down there, that's when there was quite a  44 few of them, but after that it cut down.  There's not  4 5 many.  46 Q Now, I'd like to ask you some questions about the  47 House of Madeek.  You've told us that Madeek is the 195  1 house in which your father was?  2 A   Yes.  3 MS. KOENIGSBERG:   And in your affidavit in paragraph 3 you say:  4 "I have obtained from Peter Alfred, the former  5 Kanoots, George..."   And then I can't read it.  6 MR. GRANT:  Naziel.  7 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  8 Q   "...Naziel and Fred Joseph Kanoots to describe and  speak about the Ts'un c'os 'aay territory owned by the  House of Madeek."  Yes.  Do you recall that?  Yes.  I'm just going to read you the next sentence as well.  "I have spoken with members of the House of  Madeek and understand that Fred Joseph will speak  for the House of Madeek until such time as someone  is chosen to take the Madeek succession to George  Naziel who recently died."  Do you recall that?  Yes.  Why are you speaking for Madeek?  Because I'm the one that grew up in that territory and  I was raised on that territory and I know more about  it, then they choose me because I can speak about it  clearly.  Okay.  You also told us about concern of members of  the House of Madeek about trespassing signs on their  territory and that you were asked to speak about it at  conferences that you would go to?  Yes.  Do you recall that?  Yes.  Why were you asked to go to these conferences to speak  about this instead of someone from the House of  Madeek?  Because I'm the only one that can go there and any  from the house they don't -- they got no way to get  there.  Now, you also said in answer to some questions from  Mr. Mackenzie, he was asking you with regard to a  number of uses to which white men have put the  territory, if you knew if permission had been sought  from the House of Madeek.  Do you recall him asking  you those questions?  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  28  29  Q  30  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  41  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47 196  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And at one point you said if -- that you didn't know  3 about it, but that if permission had been sought, you  4 think you would know about it, that someone in the  5 house of Madeek would have told you; is that correct?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Why do you think they would tell you?  8 A   Because I been close to Madeek and Kanoots and they  9 know I am concerned about the territory where my  10 father was, has been, and I grew up there and they  11 know I am concerned about that all the time.  I'm kind  12 of miss the country and they know it and I always ask  13 them question about it if they go there.  So next time  14 they see me they always tell me what they see and  15 what's happening to the country.  16 Q   Have you been authorized to speak about the House of  17 Madeek other than about the territory?  18 A   Now, I don't understand quite.  I'll ask my  19 interpreter, please.  20 MR. GRANT:  I think that before the interpreter translates it I  21 don't understand as well.  I think I know what you're  22 getting at, but I think you should try to be more  23 precise in your question.  24 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  25 Q   Have you been -- have you been asked by members of the  26 House of Madeek to speak on their behalf about the  27 crests or stories about the House of Madeek?  28 A   Yes, but they don't talk to me about their crest.  29 It's just the territory that they talk.  30 Q   And if we wanted information, if I wanted to obtain  31 information about the history and stories about the  32 House of Madeek, would a person in the House of Madeek  33 be more knowledgeable than you?  34 A   Yes, that's correct.  35 Q   In preparing for this commission evidence did you --  36 did you discuss the members, the full membership, of  37 the House of Madeek with anyone in the House of  38 Madeek?  39 A   No.  40 Q   Are you familiar, of your own knowledge, about all of  41 the members of the House of Madeek?  42 A   Say that again.  43 Q   Are you familiar -- do you know all of the members of  44 the House of Madeek?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And how would you know that, and I ask you that in the  47 context that you're not in the House of Madeek? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  197  No.  Why would you know that?  Because when I go to feast house they all facing me  and I know who they are.  All right.  You would know then all of the persons of  the House of Madeek who attend the feasts; correct?  Yes.  Would you know all of their children?  Yes.  Okay.  Before the commission evidence started did  anyone come and talk to you and ask you questions  about the membership of the House of Madeek other than  Mr. Grant?  Yes.  It's that lady that I been talking about.  Mrs. Mills?  I keep forgetting her name.  Yes.  Mrs. Mills or Miss Mills?  Yes.  Would you please put Exhibit 2 for identification in  front of the witness.  It's the genealogical chart of  the House of Madeek and please turn to page 4 of that  genealogy.  Okay.  Do you know Alice Joseph, who's  married to Joe Pete?  Yes.  And where do they live?  Moricetown.  And they have -- they had 11 children?  Yes.  And do you know all of those children?  Not all of them, just the older ones.  Just the older ones.  Do you know Tina Pete?  Yes.  And she's married to Simon Tommy?  Yes.  And do you know where they live?  Moricetown.  And do you know Joyce Pete?  Yes.  And she's married to James Quock?  Yes.  And do you know where they live?  Moricetown.  And do you know Norma Pete?  Yes.  And where does she live?  Right now I don't know, maybe Moricetown.  Did she live somewhere else before Moricetown? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12 MS.  KOEI  13 MR.  GRA1  14 MS.  KOEI  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  198  No.  She always live in Moricetown.  And do you know Lorraine Pete or --  From there I don't remember them.  I know they're  there, but the names and person -- individuals I know  them by names.  And so you wouldn't know where Lorraine Pete lives?  No, not right now.  Or Shirley Pete?  They're probably all at Moricetown.  I don't know.  Do you know Dora Dennis?  Yes.  5SBERG:   And —  :  What page are you referring to?  SSBERG:  I'm sorry.  I'm on the next page, page 5.  And she's  married to Paul -- is it Madam?  Madam, yes.  Madam?  Uh-huh.  And where do they live?  Moricetown.  And do you know their children?  She has lot of children too, but I -- the same way.  I  just know the oldest.  My count is eight. Does that sound right to you?  That's about right.  Yes.  You know Melvin?  Yes.  Do you know where he lives?  Moricetown.  And Louie?  Moricetown.  He lives in Moricetown?  Yes.  Vivian?  Yes.  She lives in Moricetown?  Yes, as far as I know.  Wayne?  From there I don't know them.  I know them, but --  You don't see them on a regular basis?  Not regular basis and don't see them -- recognize  them.  As they grow up they look different too.  On the first page did you know Sarah Joseph?  Yes.  And she was married to Matthew Pierre?  Yes. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Q  199  And you knew both of them?  Yes.  And they're both dead?  Yes.  Did you know their children?  They have a lot of children too, the same, just I know  one or two of the oldest.  That's all.  All right.  Did you know Andy?  Yes.  Yes.  Do you know where he lives?  Hagwilget as far as I remember.  Did you know Fred?  Yes.  Do you know where he lives?  All in Hagwilget.  Amos?  Yes.  Hagwilget?  Yes.  Mary?  All in Hagwilget.  And from there I don't know the  rest.  All right.  You didn't know Emma?  I heard about her, but I don't see her.  All right.  And she's married to a non-Indian?  I don't know who she married.  All right.  And do you know where she lives?  They all live in Hagwilget as far as I know.  The  father is from there.  That's where they remain.  I think I just have one more question and I just want  to see if I already know the answer.  We've used the word, or I've heard the word, Taan  deet?  Taan deet.  Taan deet?  Yes.  And on the list of words, number 30, there's a word  that says -- and it says it's "lake on the boundary"?  Yes.  In your affidavit on page 4 under the heading "House  and Campsites", the third one down, "Tandet"?  Uh-huh.  It says "Cabin near lake of same name".  Those are two  different -- two different things, but they have the  same name?  Taan deet, and which one the other one?  And well they're just spelled differently. Is it -- 200  1 are there two words that sound the same?  2 A   Taan deet Yex, that's the right word.  3 Q   Okay.  And the cabin is called Taan deet --  4 A   No.  5 Q   -- the same as the lake?  6 A   No, it's the house, the cabin they call it "Yex".  No  7 Taan deet I don't think is the name there, but I guess  8 it's just spelled wrong on there.  Taan deet Yex,  9 maybe that's what it is.  10 Q   Yex?  11 A   Yex means "cabin".  It will sound like it's Taan deet  12 Yex. It's Taan deet is the house right there.  13 MS. KOENIGSBERG:   All right.  Could we have a spelling for  14 "Yex"?  15 MR. MITCHELL: Y-i-g-h.(sic)  16 MS. KOENIGSBERG: I-i-g-h?  17 MR. MITCHELL: Y-i-g-h.  18 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Y-i-g-h.  Those are all my questions.  Thank  19 you, Mrs. Bazil.  20 MR. GRANT:  Maybe we'll go off the record and take a short  21 break.  22  23 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR AFTERNOON RECESS)  24  2 5 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  26  2 7 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. GRANT:  28 Q   Okay.  Mrs. Bazil, I'm going to ask you a few  29 questions arising out of all of the questions that Mr.  30 Mackenzie and Mrs. Koenigsberg asked you.  Okay.  31 Now, I believe it was two days ago Mr. Mackenzie  32 asked you a series of questions and one was he asked  33 you about a person named Khay Lah?  34 A   Khay Lah.  35 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  Do you have that number, Mr. Mitchell?  36 MR. MITCHELL: Sixty-four.  37 MR. GRANT:  38 Q   Do you know what house or which clan Khay Lah belongs  39 to?  40 A   He's Laksilyu and he's belong to G'e neegh la yex.  41 MR. GRANT:  Which number is that?  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  Excuse me, Mr. Grant, I'm going to comment for  43 the record that some of the persons that are present  44 in the room are responding to your questions as well  45 as Mrs. Bazil and I would ask that you instruct your  46 clients that Mrs. Bazil only is to answer the  47 questions at this commission. 201  1 MR. GRANT:  My client -- these other persons are responding.  As  2 I understand they're not -- they're not on the record  3 and Mrs. Bazil is giving --  gave an answer and then  4 they said something, then Mrs. Alfred said something,  5 but Mrs. Bazil gave no further answer.  So there is no  6 response except from Mrs. Bazil that is on the record  7 and she didn't change her answer in any way.  8 MR. MACKENZIE: No, I agree with that, and I just ask that you —  9 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  10 MR. MACKENZIE: — ensure that that continues to happen.  Thank  11 you.  12 MR. GRANT:  13 Q   Okay.  Now, you've given the names of a number of the  14 houses.  For example, you have just referred to the  15 House of -- to G'e neegh la yex.  That is a house  16 name; is that right?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And I believe your house is Kwen beegh Yex?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   What does the -- is there a Wet'suwet'en word "Yex"?  21 A   "Yex", it's a house.  22 Q   I'm going to ask you which house certain persons  23 belong to if you know.  Do you know Joe Nikal?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Do you know which house he belongs to?  26 A   That's G'e neegh la yex.  2 7 Q   Do you know John Tommy?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Which house does he belong to?  30 A   Lak sa mushu.  It's Mes dzii yex.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  Excuse me, Mr. Grant, could you tell me what  32 part of the cross-examination this arises from?  33 MR. GRANT:  34 Q   This arises from your reference to applications for  35 trap line registrations in reference to Exhibit 8 for  36 identification.  And the document Exhibit 8 for  37 identification refers to "See band council  38 resolution", and the band council resolution which was  39 in that file which you -- the entire file of which you  40 produced for me after you had commenced  41 cross-examination, but before now, includes this band  42 council resolution which includes these persons'  4 3 names.  44 Do you know who Steven Tommy is or was?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And do you know which house or clan he belongs to?  47 A   Lak sa mushu.  It's the same as Johnny Tom. It's his 202  1 nephew.  2 Q   What about Lawrence Tommy?  3 A   It's the same.  All three of them are the same.  Same  4 house.  5 Q   Now, you were asked whether your brother Peter Jim  6 took over your uncle, I believe it was, Louie Tommy's  7 trap line by Mr. Mackenzie?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   Do you remember that?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   And I'm showing you Exhibit 8 for identification which  12 refers to -- on the back of it it refers to your name  13 plus John Tommy and Lawrence Tommy.  Do you see that?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   What rights under -- under Wet'suwet'en law would John  16 Tommy or Lawrence Tommy have rights to use that  17 territory?  18 A   Yes.  It's Neg'edeld'es -- not really Neg'edeld'es,  19 but what happened was when Louie Tommy had the  20 territory he was too old to go there himself so it was  21 his son-in-law and his grandchildren which he raised  22 himself.  He's the one that put the name on there.  23 And when Peter Jim took -- took the territory they  24 want to leave two of them on there, so this is why  25 there's two of them on there.  26 MR. GRANT:  Now, I'm showing you a band council resolution dated  27 September 10th, 1979, entitled "Re-Louie Tommy and  28 Company Trap line" and there's latitude and longitude.  2 9 And on that trap line this document came out of the  30 same file as Exhibit 8 for identification.  For the  31 record, it is the only band council resolution in that  32 file, and it appears that the reference on the back of  33 Exhibit 8 to band council resolution is a reference to  34 this document.  Now, before I ask you questions, I'll  35 ask that this be marked as Exhibit 12 for  36 identification.  37 MR. MACKENZIE: Now, Mr. Grant, I agree that the reverse of  38 Exhibit 8 does say "See band council resolution", but  39 with respect I don't think you can go much further  40 than that.  41 MR. GRANT:  Well, with respect I think that the document is —  42 the reference on Exhibit 8 appears to be from an  43 examination of the file to this document and properly  44 this document should have been put in with Exhibit 8,  45 but we can argue that out later.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  47 MR. GRANT:  Can you mark this as Exhibit 12 for identification, 1  2  3  4  5  6 MR.  GRANT  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  24  25  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  203  please?  (EXHIBIT 12 FOR IDENTIFICATION: Band council  resolution dated September 10th, 1979)  I'll give you an opportunity just to read that and in  particular -- well, you should read -- just read the  entire document.  Just when I'm talking about that,  I'm talking about the typed portion starting at the  "whereas Louie Tommy" to your name at the bottom "Lucy  Bazil".  Okay.  I don't understand this.  I'll let my  interpreter explain to me because some of the members  name wasn't on there yet.  Okay.  I'm just going to ask you about one or two of  the names that are on there so could you translate  that for her?  No.  That part I understand, but this part here.  Joe Nikal is. Joe Nikal is passed on.  Okay.  Okay.  I'll just ask you -- you don't have to  understand the entire document for my question.  Okay.  I'll just ask you a question on it, Mrs. Bazil.  Before Joe Nikal passed on, would he have rights under  Wet'suwet'en law to be on the territory that Peter Jim  is now registered?  Yes. He -- he's the son-in-law and he traps for his  father-in-law.  Okay.  That's why it was agreed.  And his father-in-law was?  Joe Nikal, son-in-law of Louie Tommy.  Okay.  Thank you.  Just for the record, I only put  that Exhibit 12 for identification in so to -- because  it appears to have a larger list of members that on  Exhibit 8 for identification.  Now, Mr. Mackenzie showed you a document, Exhibit  11 for identification, which had a mark on it and  purported to be the mark of your father Jim Mooseskin  and it was entitled "Application for registration of a  trap line".  Now, the last sentence that's typed in  says "I will not trap over land upon which any white  man resides unless I get permission.".  Did your father ever speak to you about being --  about being told about not trapping over lands where  white man lived?  He never mention that to me. 204  1 Q   Okay.  Did he trap over lands on which white man lived  2 after 1928?  3 A   I said that earlier that he did trap in front of  4 there, but he ask them.  He tell them he going to set  5 trap in front of their property and they let him.  6 Q   Now, you recall that you gave evidence that you went  7 with your father to the different parts of the  8 territory when he trapped when you were young?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And one of the places that I believe you said you went  11 to was Dzel teel k'un'?  12 A   Dzel teel k'un'.  Yes.  13 Q   Forty-nine.  And did you go there with your father  14 after 1928 when you were eight years old?  15 A   I was about ten when I used to go, 10 or 11, I used to  16 go with him.  17 Q   You were asked about Sarah Holland and you had  18 indicated that she was Kanoots.  Was Sarah Holland in  19 Wah tah kwets' House?  2 0 A   No.  21 Q   Which house was she in?  22 A  Madeek's House.  23 Q   I'm sorry, that was my mistake in my question.  I  24 intended to ask if she was in Madeek's House.  25 Now, I'd like to show you Exhibit 2.   You were  26 asked by Mr. Mackenzie if you had seen Exhibit 2  27 before the commission.  This is the genealogy of  28 Madeek.  Do you recall reviewing this with me on  29 Monday the first day of the commission, but outside of  30 this hearing room, that you and I discussed the  31 members of the House of Madeek?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Do you have trouble now, Mrs. Bazil, recalling names  34 of a lot of people?  35 A   Yes.  Not only the senior names or any other names, my  36 memory is -- disappears when they come to names.  Even  37 my grandchildren or anybody that I just can't -- my --  38 the name wouldn't register right away in my mind.  39 Q   Okay.  You do you recall the names on Exhibit 2  40 that -- me reading those names out to you --  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   -- when we reviewed it?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And if the names are read to you, do you remember who  45 they are?  46 A   Yes.  47 MR. GRANT:  You were asked by Mr. Mackenzie why the name Madeek 205  1 has not yet been taken and you explained that to him.  2 Who is responsible for the Madeek-Kanoots territory  3 today between the time of George Naziel and Peter  4 Alfred's passing away and the feast at which their  5 successor is formally named?  6 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Before the witness answers that question, Mr.  7 Grant, I would object that I don't think that question  8 arises out of the cross-examination.  I believe that  9 in fact you canvassed that in your examination in  10 chief and she answered it.  I just say that for the  11 record.  12 MR. GRANT:  Thank you.  13 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, I agree with that objection.  14 MR. GRANT:  15 Q   Go ahead.  16 A  Well —  17 MR. MACKENZIE: Excuse me, I was just checking the notes of the  18 examination in chief to confirm that.  Go ahead.  19 THE WITNESS:    Well, as I said it's — they just passed away  20 recently and they -- they point out the names to the  21 two people already, that's Freddie Joseph and Russel  22 Tiljoe.  They already pointed out, and they are  23 preparing to get a grave stone and grave all fixed up,  24 then they have the feast.  I don't know whether they  25 going to have it together or not, maybe separate, and  26 then in the meantime they are pointed out and they --  27 they can go and look after the territory in the  2 8 meantime.  2 9 MR. GRANT:  30 Q   Does Fred -- did -- does Fred Joseph hold a name now?  31 A   Not yet.  He's holding it, but he's got to have feast  32 first before it's finished.  33 Q   I'm showing you a document which again is part of the  34 file relating to the Peter Alfred trap line which was  35 not shown to you yesterday, but was together with the  36 document which is Exhibit 9 for identification, that  37 is, when I say that it was in the file with that  38 document, and I would ask you if you have seen that  39 before?  40 A   No, I haven't seen no map before.  41 Q   Okay.  Mr. Mackenzie used two terms when he spoke to  42 you about your territory.  On certain times -- certain  43 of his questions he talked about your trap line and in  44 other questions he talked about your territory.  Now,  45 is the trap line of Kanoots the same as the  46 traditional territory of Kanoots?  47 A   No. 206  1 MR. GRANT:   Does the trap line of Kanoots include Wid'uk C'es?  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  And who are you referring to as Kanoots in this  3 respect, Mr. Grant?  4 MR. GRANT:  Who am I referring to what, as Kanoots?  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  As Kanoots.  That is, I take it you're referring  6 to a registered trap line.  7 MR. GRANT:  8 Q   No.  Oh, I see.  I see.  I see.  Does the registered  9 trap line held by your father and by Peter Alfred  10 include Wid'uk C'es, number 78?  11 A  Wid'uk.  12 Q   Wid'uk —  13 A  Wid'uk.  14 Q   — C'es?  15 A   No, it's outside the territory.  16 Q   Does the territory, that is, the territory which your  17 father used before registration include Wid'uk C'es?  18 A   No.  19 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  I refer you to Exhibit 4, page 3.  Do you  20 recall meeting with me and going through this  21 affidavit?  22 MR. MACKENZIE: I object to that question.  23 MS. KOENIGSBERG: I object to it also.  That cannot possibly be  24 proper re-examination to go over a matter that has  25 been gone over in an examination in chief.  26 MR. GRANT:  All I did was file the affidavit in examination in  27 chief.  I did not go over this boundary.  The boundary  28 itself was raised with her in cross-examination.  29 There was a sworn affidavit and there's — there was a  30 sworn affidavit and she was cross-examined on this  31 affidavit.  She was not examined in chief on this part  32 of this affidavit.  33 MS. KOENIGSBERG: You have our objections.  34 MR. GRANT:  35 Q   Go ahead.  36 A  Ask me again.  37 Q   Do you recall -- do you recall me going over this,  38 reading this affidavit over with you before you signed  39 it?  40 A   Yes.  41 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  Now, do you recall on the top of page 3 that  42 we read over that first three lines:  43  44 "The boundary description starts where the  45 Upper Bulkley River meets Wet'sen kwe, Bulkley-  46 Morice River.  It goes east along the south bank  47 of the Upper Bulkley River to a point about two 207  1 miles west of Neel d'zii C'eek."  2  3 Do you recall me reading that over to you?  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  I object to that question.  5 MR. GRANT:  6 Q   Objection's noted.  Go ahead.  7 A  Well, the reason this -- I was agree with it because  8 that doesn't include my fathers's territory, but that  9 part there I -- I know the whole area, and that's Wah  10 tah kwets' area, that bottom part, and that's where  11 Houston is.  12 Q   Okay.  13 A  And that's how I recognize it the same way as I did,  14 but it's not inside my father's territory.  15 Q   Okay.  16 A  Wet'sen kwe and Bulkley River and other — Neel d'zii  17 C'eek is right in Houston.  18 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  Just one moment.  Madam reporter just wanted  19 to check a number.  Do you have that number for  20 Houston, Mr. Mitchell?  21 MR. MITCHELL:   Ninety-one.  22 MR. GRANT:  You gave evidence that you went with your father to  23 Dzel teel k'un', number 49, and camped there.  Did  24 your father describe to you where the boundary went  25 from Dzel teel k'un'?  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  I object to that question.  2 7 MR. GRANT:  2 8       Q   Go ahead.  29 A   Dzel teel k'un' where he had the cabin he said was  30 just as far as he can walk, a day walk.  That's where  31 he has the cabin.  But there's little more down  32 towards Houston yet to go, but he doesn't have the  33 cabin there because walking one day walk distance  34 that's where the cabin is.  35 Q   Okay.  Did you cross any creeks on the way to that  36 cabin?  37 A   Lots of little creeks.  38 MR. MACKENZIE: I object to that question.  39 MR. GRANT:  Did he tell you the names of any of those creeks?  40 MR. MACKENZIE: I object to that question.  41 THE WITNESS:   He does, but I forgot them now.  42 MR. GRANT:  43 Q   Mr. Mackenzie this morning asked you a series of  44 questions about persons who received Crown grants,  45 that is, they got pieces of land in the Buck Creek  46 area from the government of British Columbia.  And he  47 told you about people who had bought or received land 20E  1 recently, but he didn't give you the names of people  2 who had bought land in the early 1900's or received  3 Crown grants around 1919, 1913.  If Mr. Mackenzie had  4 given you those names, is it possible that you would  5 have recalled some of the names of people your mother  6 told you about?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Mr. Mackenzie asked you this morning about mining and  9 started giving you mining -- placer mining leases, I  10 believe, numbers, and you talked about one prospector  11 at Bob Creek.  Is -- did you -- were there any other  12 persons prospecting in your father's territory when  13 you were growing up there to your knowledge?  14 A   The only person that I remember was that Bill James  15 and there's one further up by Alfred Namox was that  16 John Erickson.  He was doing the same thing, but it  17 was not in my father's territory.  18 Q   That was in the Namox territory?  19 A   Namox territory.  Yes.  20 Q   Now, Mr. Mackenzie asked you a series of questions  21 about persons with -- who'd bought land, persons who  22 had water licences, persons who had grazing permits,  23 persons who had mining leases.  And at the end of each  24 of these questions he asked you if you knew if this --  25 if it was an individual or other persons, if you knew  26 whether they had received permission from Kanoots or  27 Madeek and you gave generally the same answer, but on  28 occasion you said "No.", and on some occasions you  29 said "I don't know.".  Do you -- do you know whether  30 any of these persons obtained permission?  31 A  My answer would be not that I know of in my lifetime  32 that any government that settle land came to the -- to  33 the people that looking after the territories that  34 come to them and ask them for any information.  I  35 never heard that and I never seen it, not once that I  3 6 know.  37 MR. GRANT:   Did those people who tore down your father's house  38 ever come to your father or the subsequent Kanoots for  39 permission?  40 MR. GRANT I object to that question.  41 THE WITNESS:   No.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  It doesn't arise out of cross-examination.  43 MR. GRANT:  It certainly does, Mr. Mackenzie.  You're the one  44 that asked whether all these people had permission,  45 unless you're suggesting that those persons were not  46 one of the ones that you were referring to?  47 MR. MACKENZIE: What I'm suggesting is that I object to the 209  1 question.  2 MR. GRANT:  You've got — your point's made.  3 MR. MACKENZIE: Thank you.  4 MR. GRANT:  Mrs. Koenigsberg asked you a series of questions  5 about what members of the House of Wah tah kwets did,  6 their occupations, and asked you quite a bit of those  7 questions this morning.  And I just want to ask you as  8 an example because I don't want to go through each one  9 of them given the time we have left and the anxiety  10 for everyone to leave, but let me ask you this.  Does  11 Roger Bazil, your son, does he still use the fishing  12 sites at Moricetown?  13 MS. KOENIGSBERG: I object to that question.  It doesn't arise  14 out of the cross-examination?  15 THE WITNESS:   He hasn't yet.  He never been around there to use  16 it.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  We're reacting very violently, Mr. Holland.  For  18 the record that noise was I was just moving the  19 microphone over for Miss Koenigsberg to be able to  20 respond if necessary.  21 MR. GRANT:  22 Q   Yes.  I didn't take advantage of the time of silence  23 when both of you were cut-off to squeeze in another  24 question.  25 Miss Koenigsberg asked you about Nora Tait and her  26 12 children and she referred to the names of some of  27 those children.  I'm going to put Exhibit 1 in front  28 of you.  And she referred as far as Diane Tait I  29 believe, and I'm just going to go on.  You know Hank  30 Vantunen?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Ann Vantunen?  33 A  Well, that's the little ones that -- I know them all,  34 but I -- each individuals I get mixed up with them.  35 Q   You get mixed up with the name?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   But you know that if you saw Ann Vantunen today you  38 would know who she was?  39 A   Yes.  Yes.  40 Q   And that's the same with the rest of her children?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   Okay.  And is that the same with the young children  43 and grandchildren and great-grandchildren on Exhibit 1  44 and 2, the Madeek and Wah tah kwets genealogy?  45 A   Yes.  All the same.  4 6 Q   You know them, but sometimes you can't remember their  4 7 names? 210  1  A  2  MS.  KOENI  3  4  5  MR.  GRANT  6  7  8  9  MR.  GRANT  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  MR.  GRANT  38  MS.  KOENI  39  40  41  MR.  GRANT  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Yes, I know them all.  5SBERG:  For the record, Mr. Grant, that was her  evidence when I asked her the question.  She said she  knew them, she just didn't remember the names.  Just go off the record for a moment, please.  (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION)  Okay.  We can go back on the record.  You were asked  by Miss Koenigsberg about whether each house had  histories I believe or each house had stories.  Is  there a history that belongs to each of the houses of  the Wet'suwet'en people?  Yes, they have.  And you described that you were getting older and you  are teaching your children and grandchildren now in  evidence.  Who taught you the history of your house?  My grandmother.  And who was that?  Deliiz, my father's mother --  Deliiz?  -- and my mother and the other old people that I used  to know, they all died.  And are those the histories you are passing on to your  children and grandchildren?  Yes.  Now, you were asked by Ms. Koenigsberg if persons in  the House of Madeek would be more knowledgeable than  you about the history of the House of Madeek.  What  I'd like to ask you is Mrs. Madeline Alfred was  married to Kanoots; is that right?  Yes.  Does -- do Wet'suwet'en chiefs talk to their spouses  about the histories of their own house?  Yes.  :   Would Madeline --  5SBERG: I'm going to object for the record on the basis  I don't see how that arises out of my  cross-examination, but go ahead.  Would Madeline Alfred be more knowledgeable about the  history and crests of the House of Madeek than you?  Yes.  What does the word Taan deet --  Taan deet means --  -- mean? 211  1 A   -- water, narrow lake.  "Deet" means narrow and long.  2 Q   Okay.  So is that the name -- would that be the name  3 of a specific lake or would the Wet'suwet'en use the  4 name Taan deet for a number of lakes that are narrow  5 and long?  6 A  Well, maybe different country -- places maybe they do.  7 If they see it like that, that's how they'll name it.  8 Q   Okay.  9 A  What the shape of mountains, what shape of lakes,  10 that's how they name them.  11 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  Okay.  For the record, the — there was a  12 word list being prepared for Lucy Bazil's evidence  13 which commenced -- I believe the first version went up  14 to about 40 or 50 and then it's been added to by Mr.  15 Mitchell.  And Mr. Mitchell has put in English words  16 or parallels along the line for the assistance of  17 counsel.  And I just want to note that it's agreed by  18 counsel that this word list when the final version is  19 typed up will be delivered and will become Exhibit 13  20 in these -- in these proceedings.  It will be an  21 exhibit, but subject to -- counsel will have a chance  22 to review it before we consent to that.  However, I  23 want to note for the record, and request Mr. Mitchell  24 to change it, that the word Taan deet, number 30 on  25 that list where he has put in brackets "lake on the  26 boundary", that that's not a translation of the  27 witness and it was just for our assistance and that  28 that -- that definition or naming should be taken out  29 and possibly the word "long narrow lake" should be put  30 in which is a closer translation of the witness --  31 which is a closer translation of the witness of what  32 Taan deet means.  And subject to that, and the filing  33 of Exhibit 13, I'm through with my re-examination.  34 Thank you very much, Mrs. Bazil, you can go off the  35 record.  36  37 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  38  39 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  40 a true and accurate transcript herein  41 to the best of my skill and ability.  42  43    44 Tanita S. French  45 Official Reporter  46 -

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