CONTENTdm
Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts
Bazil, Lucy
British Columbia. Supreme Court
application/pdf
1 2 November 23, 1987 3 Smithers, B.C. 4 5 MR. GRANT: Okay. This is the commencement of the commission 6 evidence of Lucy Bazil which has been authorized by 7 court order on September 8th. For the record I am 8 Peter Grant, counsel for the plaintiffs in this 9 action, and with me -- or I'm sorry, in the room as 10 well is counsel for the Federal Crown, Marvyn 11 Koenigsberg and Loryl Russell, and counsel for the 12 Province, Tim Mackenzie and Thora Sigurdson. Also Mr. 13 Ron Mitchell is the word person, that is, the person 14 who will provide the spellings of Wet'suwet'en words 15 and he is present as well as George Holland who's the 16 translator from Wet'suwet'en into English, and of 17 course the witness Miss Lucy Bazil Verigin. And for 18 the record I want to confirm that the translator Mr. 19 Holland will not be translating everything that Mrs. 20 Bazil says. I anticipate that the bulk of the 21 commission evidence will be taken in the English 22 language, but she has requested his presence for 23 questions in particular that she may not understand 24 and he should be sworn to translate from English to 25 Wet'suwet'en and from Wet'suwet'en to English. The 26 witness Mrs. Bazil has been sworn. Possibly you could 27 swear the translator as well please, madam reporter? 28 29 (INTERPRETER SWORN IN) 30 31 MR. GRANT: Now, before I commence, the other procedure that I 32 confirmed with counsel for both the Province and 33 Canada before we commenced was that at certain times 34 Mr. Mitchell may come -- a word in Wet'suwet'en may be 35 given which he has not anticipated being led and he 36 may wish to speak with Mr. Holland. It's agreed that 37 Mr. Mitchell is the person responsible for the 38 spelling of the words. It's his spelling that will be 39 used as a standardized spelling and as he has been the 40 person basically responsible for spelling of words 41 through this trial from Wet'suwet'en to English -- or 42 I mean the Wet'suwet'en words, but if he does wish to 43 speak with Mr. Holland he will indicate so and I 44 understand it's agreed that we'll go off the record 45 for a moment so they can discuss it. That's just the 46 spelling of words. 47 I'm ready to commence unless counsel for either 6 Q 7 8 A 9 Q 10 A 11 Q 12 13 14 A 1 Canada or British Columbia have anything to say before 2 I start? 3 MS. KOENIGSBERG: No. 4 5 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT: Mrs. Bazil, you have been sworn to tell the truth on this commission evidence; is that right? Yes. And your name is Lucy Bazil Verigin? Yes. And although you were initially introduced as Lucy Bazil, you have become married and you take the name Verigin as well as Bazil? Yes. 15 MR. GRANT: And one point, I'm anticipating leading on the 16 introductory and please indicate where you have -- as 17 soon as you have any concern? 18 MS. KOENIGSBERG: We'll do that. At least the Federal Crown 19 feels that you should lead through anything that's not 20 controversial. 21 MR. GRANT: Mr. Mackenzie? 22 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, I agree. 2 3 MR. GRANT: 24 Q Okay. You are a Wet'suwet'en person? 25 A Yes. And your -- you hold a Wet'suwet'en chief's name? Yes. And what is that name? Guhe'. Okay. Number 1 on the list. This -- what does that name mean? It's Hazelton language. It's -- they told me it's mean gambling. Gambler. Gambler. And when you say "Hazelton", it's a Gitksan word? Gitksan word. Yeah. And you are a member of the House of Wah tah kwets? Yes. And who holds the name Wah tah kwets today? John Namox. Okay. And is that -- you're a member of the Laksilyu or Small Frog Clan? Yes. That's number 3. And you're one of the chiefs in the House of Wah tah kwets? Yes. Besides yourself and John Namox, who are the other 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 Q 31 32 A 33 34 Q 35 36 A 37 Q 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 43 A 44 Q 45 46 A 47 Q 1 chiefs in your house? 2 A There's -- I already forgot the name. 3 Q Okay. Do you -- 4 A I told you the name already, but it just won't come to 5 my mind right now. 6 Q Okay. Who's your brother? 7 A Peter Jim. 8 Q Okay. Is he a chief in the House of Wah tah kwets? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And is his name Legiboo? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Do you know Pat Namox? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Is he the brother of John Namox? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And is he a chief in the House of Wah tah kwets? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And is his name K'askii bus? 19 A K'askii bus. Yes. 20 Q Now, those people are all in the same house as you, 21 Wah tah kwets' House? 22 A Yes. 23 Q In the Laksilyu clan are there people who are head 24 chiefs of the clan? 25 A You mean on the side of the wall, my side? 26 Q Yes. 27 A Different house, but -- 28 Q In a different house? 2 9 A Oh, I know what you mean. Yes. That's Hagwilnegh. 30 What was the other one? 31 MR. MACKENZIE: Excuse me, we're not getting the spelling for 32 these, Mr. Grant. 33 MR. GRANT: I'm sorry. Hagwilnegh is number 7. Peter Jim 34 number 4. Pat Namox is number 5. 35 MR. MACKENZIE: I don't think K'askii bus is on the — 36 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Yes. It's spelled with a "K". 37 MR. MACKENZIE: I beg your pardon. 38 MR. GRANT: Just a moment. I understand that the — I know what 39 you're considering is that there's a Gitksan word 40 K'askii bus pronounced the same. What you have here 41 is a Wet'suwet'en spelling of the word, okay? 42 MR. MACKENZIE: Which number was that, I'm sorry? 4 3 MR. GRANT: Five. 44 MR. MACKENZIE: I beg your pardon. 45 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Mr. Grant, the very last word, Wet'suwet'en 46 word, for the concept you were introducing hasn't -- 47 we don't have it. I didn't get what it was. 1 MR. GRANT: Well, she said Hagwilnegh. 2 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Okay. 3 MR. GRANT: That's number 7. I was asking who were the other 4 chiefs of the clan outside of her house; is that what 5 you're referring to? 6 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Uh-huh. 7 MR. GRANT: 8 Q She said Hagwilnegh, and that's number 7. 9 Okay. So Hagwilnegh is one of the head chiefs of 10 the clan -- 11 A Yes. 12 Q -- of the Laksilyu? Is Wah tah kwets a head chief of 13 the Laksilyu? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Is there any other that you recall? 16 A Wah tah keght is one of them I know. 17 Q That's number 6 on the list. And that name is held by 18 Henry Alfred? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And Hagwilnegh was held by Sylvester Williams until he 21 died? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Is there a name for the House of Wah tah kwets? 24 A Kwen beegh Yex. 25 Q Eight. What does that name mean? 26 A House beside the fire. 27 Q Okay. Is there a name for the House of Wah tah keght? 28 A Let's see. It's on the end of my tongue. 29 Q Have you told me the name of the House of Wah tah 30 keght in the past? 31 A I told you, but it's -- the names is terrible with my 32 mind. When somebody asks the questions it just 33 disappears. 34 Q Okay. Is that — is — 35 A Something to do with rock. 36 Q Okay. Is that name Tse k'al k'a yex? Is that the 37 proper pronunciation? 38 A Tse k'al k'a yex. I think that's what it is. Yeah. 39 Q That's number 9. What does that name mean? 40 A I think it means the house on the rock. 41 Q Okay. Is there a name for the House of Hagwilnegh? 42 A G'e neegh la yex. 43 Q Okay. Number 10. And what does that name mean? 44 A I think it means the House of many eyes. 45 Q I may refer to you at times as Mrs. Bazil, you don't 4 6 mind? 47 A It's okay. 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 9 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 25 Q 26 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 Q 31 32 A 33 Q 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 42 Q 43 44 A 45 Q 46 A 47 Q Because I'm used to referring to that. Yes. Where were you born? I was born at Houston. And what's your birth date? March 20, 1920. Okay. And when you say Houston, is that near where the present location of the town of Houston which is on Highway 16 east of Smithers? Yes. And you said you had a brother Peter Jim? Yes. Where was Peter born? At my father's territory at Buck Flat. Buck Flat is B-u-c-k, one word, F-l-a-t. And he was born on January 1st, 1915? Yes. And what was your mother's name? Mary Louise Joseph. Okay. And where was she born? Ootsa Lake. And whose territory was that? I guess it's her father's side, the territory up there. Okay. So when you say "her father's side" you were referring to your grandfather? Yes. Your mother's father? Yes. Okay. Did your mother hold a Wet'suwet'en chief's name? Yes. Which one? She had Guhe'. Okay. Was your mother Wet'suwet'en? Yes. And your father? Yes. Do you know the name of your mother's mother? Susan. Susan Joseph -- oh, no, Susan Tsuhtlii I think. That's number 11. And where did your mother's mother come from? Moricetown. Do you know the name of your mother's father? No. Did — 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 Q 7 8 A 9 Q 10 11 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 18 19 20 21 Q 22 23 A 24 25 26 27 Q 28 A 29 Q 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 Q 34 A 35 Q 36 37 38 39 40 A 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Oh, you mean my mother's father? Your mother's father, yes? Oh, yes, Tsuhtlii, that's all I remember. Okay. And do you know what clan he was from? I understand it's Gilseyhu. Number 12. Was -- your mother was in the same clan in the same house as you? Yes. Okay. Do you remember either your grandmother, I'm talking about your mother's parents now, or your grandfather in your lifetime? No. Do you remember when your grandmother died? Yes. Can you tell me what you remember about that? I was very young. I didn't see too much of it. I just saw the coffin. The reason I remember that I guess because my mother start to cry when she saw the coffin and I was hanging onto her. That's the only part I remember. It was my mother's mother's coffin. You said you were very young. Do you recall about how old you were? I couldn't because I didn't remember the rest of it and didn't remember how we got there, but at that moment that's the only time I remember seeing the coffin. And did your mother's father die before you were born? Yes. Okay. When did your own mother die? 1975. Do you recall how old she was? I think she was 84. I can't remember very well. Okay. And what about your father, when did he die? Around 1941. Okay. Okay. I'm going to come back to your mother and your father's relations, but I'd like to ask you about your schooling experience and do you recall anything about school when you were young where your father endeavoured to have you put in school? Yes, I remember that. We -- in summer I had friends of white children that were living in Houston. I used to go out and play with them all the time, and those girls asked me to go to school so I asked my dad to put me to school, my brothers older than me, and my dad was willing. And he said my mother was going to stay in town because we had a house in Houston and he was going to trap on his own and we're going to go to 7 1 school. And then I went with him to school to find 2 out if he could get us in. I was pretty happy about 3 that. And then when we got there my father, I think 4 it was a teacher or principal I don't know who it is 5 he was talking to, and I understood he told him that 6 we can't because we're native people and they don't 7 want to mix with the Indian children and he mentioned 8 there's a residential school by Fraser Lake not too 9 far from here. He said he could send us there. 10 That's the only way we can get to school. And my dad 11 disagreed and he said "I'll just take them back in the 12 bush. They don't have to go to school if I can't 13 get -- I don't want to send them away." So he did. 14 He just took us back to his territory. 15 Q About how old were you when this happened? 16 A Must be about seven and eight, seven or eight, 17 something like that. 18 Q Okay. And you say your father said he would take you 19 back to the bush. Where was he referring to? 20 A Where he's trapping at his territory up at Buck Flat 21 because he has a home up there, so we went back there. 22 Q Did you have any later experience with school? 23 A In later years with Moricetown and all the children 24 were going to Le Jac school, and my cousins were going 25 and I wanted to go because -- my dad didn't want me to 26 go earlier, but at the time I beg my dad that I wanted 27 to go because all my cousins are going. So finally he 2 8 gave in and he let me go. I was 12 at the time. But 29 when we got to that school there I was crying just 30 like you were in prison. There was a lot of strict 31 rules and food wasn't right for us, but I would spend 32 two years there. That's the only school I had. 33 Q Okay. There's one thing I just want to be clear. You 34 said "when the principal" told your father that you 35 couldn't go into the school. Were you there when the 36 principal said that? 37 A Yes. I was excited so I went with my dad. I thought 38 I was going to start school. 39 Q Now, you said when you went to residential school it 40 was like prison and there were strict rules. Can you 41 explain -- give us some examples of those kinds of 42 rules and what happened there? 43 A Well, we mostly spend in the chapel and — anything 44 we're going to do, and mostly we did a lot of work. 45 There was no time to have free time to yourself. They 46 don't let us speak our own language. 47 Q Well, would what would happen if you spoke your own 1 language? 2 A We got a strap for that. 3 Q Were the girls and the boys separated? 4 A Yes. We don't see them at all, just only when we go 5 to church or in classroom. 6 Q Okay. What was the work and school schedule like in 7 the day? 8 A Early in the morning we got up and went to chapel, 9 then we start breakfast. We go into breakfast, and 10 then we all divided up to each place we were going to 11 clean up, some in the kitchen, some in the laundry, 12 bakery, dairy, and rooms to be cleaned, hall ways, 13 church, all the rooms was the nuns' and priests' 14 offices, all that cleaning until about eleven o'clock. 15 And then we have one hour class before 12 and then 16 afternoon the same thing. We go sewing room after 17 lunch and we there until four o'clock, and then 18 another one hour class four to five. That's our day 19 is finished there. 20 Q You said the rules were strict. Can you give an 21 example? I think you referred to something -- well, 22 can you give an example of it? 23 A Well, there's -- everything was strict. When we get 24 there they go through our suitcases and whatever we 25 have they take it all away. Mirrors and thing like 26 that we're not supposed to look at ourself. I don't 27 know why that was against the rules. We don't even 28 look at our self. We don't even know what we look 2 9 like until we come home. No mirrors on the wall at 30 bath rooms. There's a lot of other things were very 31 strict, the way we were dressed. 32 Q How was that? 33 A Their clothes we wear was all from the school. We 34 can't wear our own clothes. We don't speak our own 35 language. When we get together somebody's always -- 36 the nun close by. If they heard us speak our own 37 language we would get a spanking right away. 38 Q Did you know any English before you went there? 39 A Yes, because I had friends, a lot of white children I 40 used to play with right in Houston. 41 Q How long did you stay there? 42 A Two years. 43 Q Okay. Was there anything that happened that was the 44 reason why you stopped going after two years? 45 A My uncle Jack Joseph, he was the church chief in 46 Moricetown, and one of his daughter got hurt on the 47 swing in school. 1 Q 2 A 3 4 5 6 7 8 Q 9 10 A 11 Q 12 13 A 14 Q 15 16 A 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 Q 32 33 34 35 A 36 37 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 42 A 43 44 45 Q 46 47 At Le Jac? Yes. She fell off. One girl grabbed the swing underneath her and she was pretty high and she fell and she broke her back and she died not too long after that. So my uncle's the one put a stop to it and nobody went back after that, just the orphan kids that went back after that. And when you say no one went back, was that none of the Wet'suwet'en from Moricetown? Yes. Okay. So your formal schooling, did it end at that time? Yes. Did this have any effect on you later when you were raising your own children? Yes, it did. The same place where I was turned down that's where my oldest daughter starts school and they start sending homework with my daughter to help her with when she brings it home. And I got upset about it and I went to the school and I talked to her teacher. I told her I don't know anything about what she's learning because I was turned down in the same school and I didn't go to school. I did went to school, but it was at residential school. I didn't learn too much and I wish they don't send any homework with my daughter because I can't help her. And they did. They never send homework with her after that and it went on the same way with the other childern. I moved to Smithers. It was the same thing. I just let them know that I can't help them. I'd like to return to ask you some further questions about your mother's side of the family. You said that your mother's father died before you were born. Do you know where he was buried? I understand my mother had a picture of the graveyard. It was at Quick where my uncle's territory -- just up here. Okay. And that's Quick? That's that location? Yes. It's Round Lake where he was buried at. Okay. You've looked for this photograph and you cannot find it? I cannot find it. I don't know who has it. My mother had it. I seen it. My grandmother was on that picture. Okay. I'd like to refer you to an eight-page document entitled "Kwen Beegh Yex - House Beside The Fire Wah Tah Kwets - Laksilyu", and it's a genealogy chart. 10 1 Have you seen that chart before or a copy of that 2 chart? 3 A Yes, I did. 4 Q Okay. Did you go over that chart with me? 5 A Yes, I did. 6 Q And does that show the members of your house? 7 A Yes. 8 MR. GRANT: Okay. I'd ask that that be marked as Exhibit 1 in 9 these proceedings. 10 11 (EXHIBIT 1: Genealogy chart entitled "Kwen Beegh Yex - 12 House Beside the Fire. Wah tah kwets - Laksilyu") 13 14 MR. MACKENZIE: Excuse me, Mr. Grant with respect to Exhibit 1 15 you handed me a copy of this genealogy this morning. 16 Does this copy that's now marked as Exhibit 1 have 17 changes from the copy that you delivered to us some 18 time ago? 19 MR. GRANT: Uh-huh. Yes. We delivered an earlier copy — I 20 presume you want this on the record? 21 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, please. 22 MR. GRANT: 23 Q This copy has changes from the copy that was delivered 24 to you as a result of a review. First of all on the 25 first page the earlier copy showed the children of 26 Jerry Tait and Lorraine Tait. Jerry Tait is a member 27 of the House of Wah tah kwets, but since he's the 28 father of these children they don't belong as members 29 of the house, so that is deleted. The earlier copy 30 showed a name under Hank Vantunen, Skokumwasaas. That 31 name has been deleted. That's on page 1 as well. 32 Page 5. The earlier copy did not show a date of 33 death of Susan Tsuhtlii, number 11, and I -- we have 34 inserted -- just a moment -- an approximate date of 35 death of 1927. It doesn't show the clan of her 36 husband and that has now been inserted as Gilseyhu. 37 This is evidence which this witness has already given. 38 On Mary Louise Joseph Mooseskin, the mother of this 39 witness, it did not show -- it showed the date of 40 death as 1974 and that now is shown as -- that is 41 not -- I'm sorry, that is not shown on Exhibit 1. 42 The -- under Donald Jim, her husband, it shows the 43 name Kanoots and that was not shown on the earlier 44 copy. 45 On page 6 -- and by the way, I should note that it 46 appears that Exhibit 1 the pages some of them were 47 upside down, so I'm going to ask at the break we'll 11 1 take it apart and restaple it. On page 6 Mark Halonen 2 on the bottom left-hand corner is deceased and that's 3 shown, as it wasn't in the earlier one. 4 A Mark Halonen's father was died. 5 Q Oh, Mark Halonen's father? 6 A Yes. Tap Halonen, he's the one that's dead. Mark is 7 alive. Yeah. 8 Q I'm sorry. Thank you. 9 A Yeah. 10 MR. GRANT: Okay. So that should be corrected on there and 11 that dot should be for Tap Halonen not Mark Halonen. 12 So with leave I would mark it accordingly on the 13 exhibit. 14 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Would you, please? 15 MR. GRANT: 16 Q What I've done is I can't take the dot out. I put a 17 dot for Tap Halonen and Mark Halonen I put beside it a 18 note "he is alive" on the exhibit. 19 Then under Dolores Bazil on the far right-hand 20 side, who's the daughter of this witness, there was a 21 triangle in the earlier copy for her son, but there 22 was no name there. That name has been inserted and 23 that name is Travis. 24 On page 7, the next page, in the earlier copies -- 25 okay. Pat Joseph at the top did not show a date of 2 6 death and we have approximate date of death the 27 1950's. On the very bottom right, Joseph Foster, 28 there was a slash above the triangle and that slash 29 now is in the triangle. So that it's just to be 30 consistent in terms of the adoption situation. 31 Going to page 8, Karl Foster, again there's a 32 slash -- 33 A Excuse me, that Joe Foster, he's deceased too now. 34 Q Yes. And it's marked as deceased? 35 A Oh, okay. 36 MR. GRANT: Yes. Joe Foster is deceased and it should be 37 marked as a dot on both the original and on this one 38 as he's deceased. I think on the earlier copy there 39 was a mistake that the line on Eva Joseph, this is on 40 page 8, and Isadore Charlie was not drawn down to 41 their children. That line has now been drawn in. 42 Karl Foster, the slash was above his name rather than 43 through the triangle, and he is a person who was 44 adopted. Margaret Starr and Raymond Starr are on the 45 new list. Their names were not on the earlier list, 46 and Margaret Starr is noted as adopted as are all her 47 children. What you can see is that she was adopted in 12 1 and she's been adopted out. There's a dotted line to 2 her name and then she's been adopted out. Those are 3 the changes. 4 MR. MACKENZIE: Thank you very much, Mr. Grant. Could I make 5 some brief comments about that, please? 6 MR. GRANT: Feel free. 7 MR. MACKENZIE: Thank you. I note that you've gone — you've 8 noted several changes to the genealogies. As you know 9 there's a 14 day rule for the provision of genealogies 10 and these exhibits, and I'm not going to object. I 11 haven't objected to the introduction of this exhibit, 12 but -- and I still don't know the -- I don't 13 understand the significance of these changes, but -- 14 and I don't know whether they will be significant, but 15 I wish to reserve my rights to, or I want to be at 16 liberty to apply to adjourn, if necessary, if it 17 becomes necessary to, as a result of these changes 18 which you've made to the genealogy. We have not had 19 time to review them before the examination. 2 0 MR. GRANT: 21 Q Well, most of these -- there is two types of changes. 22 One is errors basically in the type of form that's 23 used in the genealogy, that is, slashes above the name 24 instead of in the name, putting children down in one 25 example which don't belong to the house which based on 26 the evidence of Alfred Joseph that's already been 27 heard it's clear, and the extensive commission 28 evidence, it's a matrolineal system. That's one type. 29 The other type of change has been the addition of 30 certain dates or names to persons which would have 31 come out of this witness viva voce. I would not have 32 amended it just for those because I don't believe it's 33 necessary as those came out from the witness herself 34 anyway, but since there were some form changes, that 35 is, just corrections of lines and things, I saw that 36 it was -- I thought that it would be of use to 37 everybody to have on the exhibit these other names, 38 this other data that the witness has already given 39 evidence of. And as you can see the witness 40 interjected at one point, there was an error on one of 41 the corrections, so I guess what I'm saying is is that 42 I don't anticipate that there will be any need for you 43 to adjourn for that, but your point is recorded. 44 Now, I guess what I'm saying is that there is no 45 addition of people's names to this, that is, except 46 for the Margaret Starr situation, there's no addition 47 of names that you didn't already have, so it's in 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 A 15 Q 16 17 A 18 Q 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A 26 Q 27 28 29 30 A 31 Q 32 33 34 A 35 Q 36 37 A 38 Q 39 40 41 42 A 43 44 Q 45 46 A 47 Q 13 terms of analysing who the people are you've pretty well got all of that except, as I say, for one name. I think I'm going to have to take this apart at this point. Now, just for the record I've just taken apart the exhibit because some of the pages were upside down, and nobody objects to that I think, and I'm also taking it apart -- I think we can staple it together afterwards -- but it may be easier for the witness to see if it's spread out. Now, I believe you've already answered this, but you have reviewed this commission -- this genealogy chart with myself; is that right? You've gone through it or a copy of it? Yes. And it accurately reflected the membership in your house? Yes. We don't have enough room so I'm going to have to -- what I'm going to do is to move it over to pages 5 and 6 and 7. Since this is on video I just want to be sure I wasn't blocking the reporter. This on page 6 there is the reference to Lucy Jim who married Frank Bazil and then married Dan Verigin and that is yourself there; is that right? Yes. Okay. Immediately preceding page -- on page -- that's on the left-hand side of page 6. On page 5 is Mary Louise Joseph Mooseskin and Donald Jim and those are your parents, is that right? Yes. And right above them is Susan Tsuhtlii and Tsuhtlii Gilseyhu and those are your mother's parents; is that correct? Yes. Was your mother's -- was your mother's mother related to Hazel Williams? I understand that. Yes. Now, if we telescope pages 2 and 5 together and the lines following each other, I'm referring to the top line, it appears that Hazel Williams was your mother's mother's sister; is that right? I understood as they were cousins, but I didn't know too much about that part. Okay. Let me -- was Hazel Williams in the House of Wah tah kwets? Yes. Okay. So when you say they were cousins, it may 1 2 3 4 A 5 Q 6 7 A 8 Q 9 10 A 11 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 21 22 23 24 25 A 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 Q 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 36 A 37 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 A 42 Q 43 A 44 Q 45 A 46 Q 47 A 14 have -- it may be that their own mothers, Hazel Williams' mother and Susan Tsuhtlii's mother, were sisters? It might have been. Yes. Okay. And was Hazel Williams -- do you remember Hazel Williams? No. I heard about her. Okay. Did she ever come to visit at your father -- at your family's place on Buck Flats? Yes. I was pretty young. I remember her as telling us the stories. And was she old when you remember her? Yes, very old. Could she walk? No. They used to -- two people had to help her to get up. Okay. Was she a small person? She was a heavy set woman. Okay. Now, I'm -- just for the record 6, 7 and 8 on the genealogy were not numbered so now that I've got it apart I didn't want -- they're numbered, but on the copy that's marked as an exhibit it was below the photocopy. Okay. So I've just marked those pages. Your mother had four brothers? Yes. And one was Round Lake Tommy? Yes. One was Louie Tommy? Yes. And who were the other two? Jack Joseph. Uh-huh. Pat, Pat Joseph. And Jack Joseph was the person whose daughter died at Le Jac? Yes, that was Jack's daughter. There were five brothers. You got four in there. There were five brothers? Yes. Okay. Who was the other one? That's George Joseph, and he's not on there. Okay. Just a moment. You missed that. Yes, George Joseph is -- he's on page 8 actually? Yes. Sorry. And your mother had sisters; is that right? One I remember. That's all. 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 5 6 A 7 Q 8 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 18 A 19 Q 20 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 Q 25 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 Q 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 Q 34 A 35 Q 36 37 A 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 A 42 43 Q 44 45 46 47 A 15 And was that Eva Joseph? Yes. Now, the children of your mother's sister as well as your mother's own children would be members of the House of Wah tah kwets? Yes. Now, do you know who held the name Wah tah kwets before John Namox? My uncle Louie Tommy. Okay. And before Louie -- your uncle, Louie Tommy? Another uncle, Round Lake Tommy. Okay. Now, did Louie Tommy marry Angeline Tommy? Yes. And Louie died about 1964? About then. Yes. And -- well, the genealogy indicates he died on January 23rd, 1964; would you agree with that? About that time. Yes. And Round -- I'm sorry, Round Lake Tommy held the name before Louie Tommy? Yes. And he died about 1960? No, earlier than that I think about 50's I think. In the 1950's. Okay. And Round Lake Tommy was married to Sarah Joseph? Yes. And also he had a wife who died named Annie? Yes. Okay. Do you remember Sarah Joseph? Sarah, yes, I did. But you don't remember Annie? No. Okay. Do you remember Louie Tommy's wife Angeline? Yes. Now, do you know who held the name Round Lake Tommy -- Wah tah kwets before Round Lake Tommy? No, it's too far back. I don't remember. Okay. When you were a child who was Wah tah kwets? I don't remember. Okay. Because I know what Round Lake Tommy was because I remember. Now, your brother -- I'm sorry, you have -- in looking at this genealogy you've reviewed all of your own children and their children and this genealogy shows them correctly? Yes. 16 1 Q And your oldest is Violet and your youngest is Dolores 2 Bazil? 3 A Right. 4 Q Do you know who held the name Legiboo before Peter 5 Jim? 6 A My Uncle Pat Joseph. 7 Q Okay. And do you remember when your Uncle Pat died 8 approximately? 9 A Yes, but I can't remember what year. It's around '62, 10 somewhere in '60. 11 Q Now, your Aunt Eva had a number of children and one of 12 them was Irene Charlie; is that right? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Now -- and Irene Charlie is now deceased? 15 A All of them deceased. Yes. 16 Q Now, did Irene Charlie adopt Margaret Starr? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Okay. And does Margaret Starr now live in Kispiox? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And has she been adopted among the Gitksan? 21 A Yes, among the Indian way in the clan they adopted. 22 Q Okay. And so her children are adopted among the 23 Gitksan? 24 A Yes. 25 Q If she attends the feast in Moricetown among the 26 Wet'suwet'en does she still -- is she still considered 27 a member of the House of Wah tah kwets in Moricetown? 28 A Yes, in Moricetown they are. 29 Q And so are her children? 30 A Yes. 31 Q So she has what when I say dual citizenship she's 32 Gitksan and she's Wet'suwet'en? 33 A Yeah. Uh-huh. 34 MR. GRANT: Is there a stapler here? 35 MS. KOENIGSBERG: I don't think so. 36 MR. MACKENZIE: I've got one next door. 37 MR. GRANT: 38 Q Okay. When your father died where did your mother 39 live after his death? 40 A She lived in Moricetown. 41 Q Okay. Now, did your uncles continue to use the 42 territories of Wah tah kwets? 43 A Yes. 44 Q Who used those territories and which ones -- which 45 territories did they use? 46 A There's one in McDonnell Lake. I forgot the Indian 4 7 name. 17 1 Q That's all right? 2 A I guess it's written there. Jack Joseph held that, 3 that territory. 4 Q Okay. 5 A And Wah tah kwets the one that used the one in Quick. 6 It's just above Telkwa. 7 Q T-e-1-k-w-a. McDonell, M-c-D-o-n-n-e-1-1. Okay. 8 That's two of the territories. Is there another one? 9 A There's another one in Houston area. 10 Q Uh-huh. 11 A That was belonged to my other uncle. 12 Q Which uncle? 13 A Ah k'ot. 14 MR. GRANT: Okay. 15 MS. KOENIGSBERG: What number's that? 16 MR. GRANT: 17 Q Can you give a spelling for that, please? 18 A Actually my aunt held that name at the time I 19 remember. My Aunt Eva held that name at that time. 20 Q Okay. 21 A Because I remember, but before that it was one of the 22 uncle. 23 Q Okay. That was your mother's sister? 24 A Yes. 25 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Is that A-g-h k-'-o-t on the genealogy? 26 MR. GRANT: Go off the record for a moment, please, for the 27 spelling of this word. 28 29 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION) 30 31 MR. GRANT: Okay. We'll go back on the record. 32 MR. MACKENZIE: Excuse me, Mr. Grant, before you start, Mrs. 33 Bazil referred to three territories, one was the Quick 34 territory next to Telkwa, and when we were off the 35 record she indicated who held that territory, but my 36 note shows she didn't indicate that on the record. 37 MR. GRANT: Yes. I was going to come back to all of that. 38 MR. MACKENZIE: Very good. 3 9 MR. GRANT: 40 Q Just to be clear that we have all this on the record, 41 my understanding is that when your mother moved back 42 to Moricetown, members of the House of Wah tah kwets 43 still used the house territories, that's right? 44 A Yes. 45 Q And you've referred to one of the territories at 46 McDonnell Lake which was used by your Uncle Jack 47 Joseph? 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 MR. macke: 7 8 MR. GRANT 9 Q 10 A 11 12 Q 13 14 A 15 Q 16 17 A 18 19 Q 20 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 Q 25 A 26 Q 27 28 A 29 Q 30 A 31 Q 32 33 A 34 35 MR. GRANT 36 37 MR. MITCH 3 8 MR. GRANT 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 A 43 44 Q 45 46 A 47 18 Yes. Okay. Did Pat Joseph also use that? Yes. And that was your other uncle? Yes. JZIE: Excuse me, Mr. Grant, I'm going to have to ask you not to lead on territorial evidence. Okay. There was another territory near Houston? Yes, right in Houston. That's where town is right now. Right. And which of your relatives used that territory when your mother moved back to Moricetown? Well, I don't think anybody did after that. Okay. Before your mom moved back to Moricetown, which of your relatives used that territory? As far as I remembered there was nobody there. I guess just anybody did. Okay. There was a territory at Quick, and which of your relatives used that territory? Yes. Which one? That's Wah tah kwets. That's Wah tah kwets' territory? Yeah. Yeah. And was that -- did one of your uncles actually use that territory then? Yes. And which uncle? Louie Tommy. Okay. Your uncle Jack Joseph, what was his Indian name? His Indian name was given him by Gitksan, Gitksan people. His name was Wis k'ak. : From the genealogy is that W-i-s-k-'-a-k' that's on page 8; is that right? ilLL: Yes. And did he live in the Gitksan territory for a while? He was married in Gitksan. Yes? At Skeena Crossing. When his wife died he moved back up here. Okay. Did he keep that Gitksan name after he moved back? Yeah, he did use it here, but when he died it didn't continue on. Nobody took it. 1 Q 2 3 4 A 5 Q 6 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 14 A 15 Q 16 17 A 18 Q 19 20 A 21 22 Q 23 24 A 25 26 27 28 Q 29 A 30 Q 31 32 A 33 Q 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 A 45 Q 46 47 A 19 Okay. And when you say he moved back here, you're referring to the fact that he moved back here from Kitsegukla to Moricetown? Yes. Okay. I'd like to continue with some of your own personal background, and you married in 1936? Yes. And after you married did you visit Moricetown? Yes. And did you fish at Moricetown after you married? Yes. Okay. And did you go to feasts in Moricetown after you married? Yes. When do the Wet'suwet'en feast? What months of the year? They usually have them during summer. Okay. And why don't they have them in the winter months at Moricetown? Winter months everybody's out in the territories trapping, hunting. They stay there until spring. Now, after you married did you move somewhere with your husband? My husband worked different places and we were in Moricetown for a while, then summertime he goes fishing in the cannery, Prince Rupert, and I go with him. And was that in the first year after you were married? Yes. Okay. And did your husband and you live at a place called Beamont? Beamont, yes. Beamont? Yes. That's B-e-a-m-o-n-t? Yes. He was working in a pole comp. Is that located near Mosquito Flats? Yes. And that's between Moricetown and Hazelton now? Yes. Did your husband -- was your husband Wet'suwet'en? Yes. Mr. Bazil? Yes. And of course that was your husband who you married in 1936 was Frank Bazil? Yes. 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 A 5 Q 6 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 Q 28 29 30 A 31 32 Q 33 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 A 45 Q 46 A 47 Q 20 And what house did he belong to? Tsayu. That's the Tsayu clan? Yes. And was there a territory which he was entitled to use as a member of the Tsayu? They have, yes. And where -- do you recall where that was? I'm sorry, I can't remember that name. Okay. Maybe Georgie could help. No, it's okay. Don't worry. T-s-a-y-u is Tsayu. Now, your father was Jim Mooseskin Donald? Yes. And where was he born? Moricetown. And what house did he belong to? Madeek's house. Okay. Was he related to -- you know Peter Alfred -- Yes. -- Madeline Alfred's husband who just died recently? Yes. And was your father related to Peter Alfred? His nephew. Peter Alfred was your father's nephew? Yes. And what is the -- who's the head chief of the house to which your father belonged? What was the head chief's name? Madeek is one. Now I already forgot the names. There's two more. Okay. Was your father the -- I'm sorry, was Madeek -- is he the head chief of that house? Yes. Okay. Now, do you remember the name your father had? Kanoots. I remember that. Was that a chief's name in that house? Yes. And is that the name that Peter Alfred held? Yes. What clan is Madeek's? Gitdumden. When your father died who took the name Kanoots? Sarah Holland. And when Sarah Holland died who took the name Kanoots? I think that's when Peter Alfred took the name. Is there a person in line for this name now? 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 6 A 7 Q 8 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 14 A 15 Q 16 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 45 46 A 47 21 Yes. And who's that? Freddie Joseph. Okay. And he's a Wet'suwet'en who lives in Moricetown? Yes. Yes. Okay. Who's the earliest person that you can recall who held the name Madeek? Bill Nye that's who held, as I remember. Okay. Do you know who held the name before Bill Nye? That part I just can't remember. Okay. You told me at an earlier occasion who held that name? I think I told you. Yeah. Did -- was that person Issiak Alexander or Azak Alexander? Azak. Azak. And did he ever hold the name Madeek? I'm not quite sure. He must have because he's the one that had the territory before my father. And when your father was Kanoots, who was Madeek? That one that's Bill Nye. Okay. And who took the name Madeek after Bill Nye? George. George Naziel. Okay. Now, Madeek is 15, Kanoots is 13, and she referred to Jack Joseph and she referred -- I think she referred to G'itnee. If she did it's 19. Bill Nye is spelled B-i-1-1, one word, N-y-e, a second word. I believe it's also spelled in other commission evidence as B-e-1-n-a-i, and I'm referring here to a document that's not an exhibit. It's dated November 17th, '87 the genealogy of Madeek. Issiak Alexander is spelled on page 3 as I-s-s-i-a-k, and Alexander as it sounds. Do you know your father's father's name? Johnny Mooseskin Donald. Okay. Did he hold a chief's name? Yes. What was it? Kweese. Eighteen. Is that name now held by Florence Hall? Yes. Okay. You said his name was Johnny Mooseskin Donald. Do you know how he happened to get the name "Mooseskin"? Yeah, that mooseskin is -- that his nickname. When he took the name Kweese I guess at those days there was 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Q 9 10 A 11 Q 12 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 Q 28 29 30 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 35 36 37 38 Q 39 A 40 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 45 A 46 Q 47 A 22 no moose in this country. It was -- they sell the mooseskin in the Hudson Bay store in Hazelton and my grandfather used to go down. Every shipment came in he bought them all for his feast, and the people from the store named him Mooseskin as his nickname, but he -- he liked it and he used it. And also my mother whose last name was Mooseskin too all the way. So his name became Johnny Mooseskin and that was the last name your mother ended -- had? Yes. Do you ever remember when you were small using your grandfather's smoke house? Yes. Where was his smoke house? On the -- on the Moricetown on the other side of the river. You can see the big fields still there yet. He had a big smoke house there and also he had a big house and also he had two barns. They had all kinds of animals there just like a farm and that's where we used to stay when we visit in the summertime. When you say "the other side" you mean -- The other side of the bridge. The side opposite the highway? Yeah, the other side of the bridge. On the Bulkley River? On the Bulkley River. The reporter -- when we both speak it's hard for her to take it. Your family used your uncle or your grandfather's smoke house? Yes. Did any other families use a smoke house? Yes, there was his -- my grandfather's niece and her family, and also his nephew and his family, and my mom and my dad was one side and herself, themselves. That's four families in the big smoke house to smoke fish. You say his niece's family. Who was that? That was Emily and little Dennis. That's Florence's mother. Florence Hall's mother? Yes. And -- Okay. And then there was yourself and your family, your parents? Yes. And there was your grandfather's wife and himself? Yes. 23 1 Q And I'm sorry, I missed the fourth one? Who was that? 2 A August Pete. 3 Q Okay. And how was he related to Johnny Mooseskin? 4 A That's his nephew. 5 Q And August Pete had a family too? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Is there a name for Madeek's house? 8 A Cassyex I think. 9 Q Fourteen. Your father had one brother and two 10 sisters? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And his two sisters were Hazel Mooseskin and Christine 13 Mooseskin? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And his brother was Mathias Mooseskin? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And Mathias held the name Sowiis? 18 A Yes. 19 Q What was the name of your father's parents -- your 20 father's parents? 21 A You mean the Indian name? 22 Q Yes. 23 A Well, I remember Kweese. That's what I remember. 24 Q I'm sorry, you already described your grandmother who 25 was Mooseskin Johnny. What was his wife's name? 26 A Uh-huh. Theresa. 27 Q Okay. And did she hold an Indian name? 28 A Yes. 29 Q What was that? 30 A I can't remember the name either. 31 Q Okay. Have you told me that name -- 32 A Yes, I did. 33 Q -- in the past? Do you remember the name Wisalop? 34 A Wisalop must be the one. Yeah. 35 MR. GRANT: That's W-i-s-a-1-o-p. I put it down as 42. 36 MR. MITCHELL: Forty-five. 37 MR. GRANT: 38 Q And was Theresa, your grandmother, also known as 39 Deliiz? 40 A Yes. 41 Q That's number 36. Do you remember your father's 42 mother? Do you remember Deliiz? 43 A Yes. 44 Q Was she involved in your training? 45 A Yes. She died when I had my second child. 46 Q What were some of the things that she taught you? 47 A Well, a lot of things that -- how to live. All the 1 2 3 4 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 9 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 21 22 23 A 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 Q 37 A 38 Q 39 40 41 A 42 43 Q 44 45 A 46 Q 47 24 native people how to treat each others, respect, and feasts, territories, and how to prepare food and meat or fish, whatever you get. There's a lot of other things she taught me. And she was from the House of Madeek? Yes. Did you ever see her when she -- were you with her only when you were in Moricetown or was she at Buck Flats too? No, she never did. She was pretty old to go up there. Okay. We visit with them in summertime. Do you remember the feasts when your father died? Yes. When your mother died? Yes. And when your husband Frank died? Yes. And can you describe, and I'm going to just ask you to describe generally without all of the detail, what happened when those three persons in your family died, what did the clan who was putting on the feast do? Well, there's a funeral feast first after the death. The person dies, it's the father's side they pay for the expense, like funeral expense. They hire them, the certain people who they have a small smoke feast at night when somebody dies and they name the people that's going to be hired to bury this person. And then after the funeral that's when the clan gets together and put up a feast and that's when they give out soups and bread and things like that. Everybody finish eating, then the clan collects. Everybody put their share in and that's the money that goes back for the burial, the people that hired to do the first and then they pay them back at that feast. Who decides on who would take the name? The people from the feast house, all the chiefs. Okay. Before the feast, does the clan who hosts the feast, do they have any -- do they do anything before the feast? Yes. They get together in one house and they discuss what they going to do. Uh-huh. Now, is it important for the other clans to be present at the feast? Yes. Have -- is there -- is there any way of sorting out a difficulty if there's a disagreement as to who the 1 2 A 3 4 5 Q 6 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 12 A 13 Q 14 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 19 Q 20 21 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 27 28 A 29 30 31 32 33 Q 34 35 36 37 A 38 Q 39 40 A 41 42 Q 43 44 A 45 Q 46 A 47 Q 25 successor should be? Yes. If it happens they leave it to the floor and the chiefs they the one that decide and they discuss it right in the feast house and this is the way it goes. Do the chiefs discuss it outside of the feast house as well? Yes. If it's a very bad problem they will. Okay. Does this still go on today? Yes. Are you involved in any discussions about the succession in Wah tah kwets' house? Yes, lots of times. Okay. And what is your role as one of the chiefs in that house? What do you do? Well, I help them discuss if there's problems. And who would you discuss it with in your house? Well, the biggest ones then in the house. My -- John Namox, Pat Namox, my brother. Uh-huh. Exhibit 1 shows a large number of people in Wah tah kwets' house. Do you observe how the younger people in the house behave? Yes. And why is that? What do you mean by "behave"? Well, how they conduct themselves just normally? I mean do you -- is it of interest to you as a chief in the house how those young people conduct themselves? Yes. Well, there's not much training nowadays I guess in -- in the younger generation. Their — they don't listen some of them and they do things the opposite and then we get together and we try to speak with them what is right and what is wrong. I'm sorry, earlier I had asked you who had held the name Wah tah kwets and you indicated Louie Tommy and Round Lake Tommy had held the name. Do you know who held the name Wah tah kwets before Round Lake Tommy? No, I didn't. Okay. Did your mother tell you who held the name before? She probably did, but I can't remember. She said it was her uncle, but I can't remember the uncle's name. Is there a person from Babine who also holds the name Wah tah kwets today? Yes. And who's that? Frank Patrick. Okay. And he's shown on Exhibit 1 your genealogy 26 1 chart of your house? 2 A Yes. 3 Q So is he -- are the Babine people related to the 4 Wet'suwet'en? 5 A Yes, they are. 6 Q Okay. Now, you were talking about when you were at 7 Moricetown. Was there more than one feast hall at 8 Moricetown when you were younger? 9 A No. I remember there was three. 10 Q Uh-huh. And who owned those halls? 11 A Well, each clan, three clans, I think they had a hall 12 there. 13 Q Uh-huh. 14 A One hall was Gitdumden hall, which was Tyee Lake 15 David, and the other one was Lak sa mushu hall was 16 Peter Michell. 17 Q Okay. 18 A And Laksilyu hall was held by Hagwilnegh. That's 19 Arthur Michell. 20 MR. GRANT: Okay. Just one moment. 21 MR. MITCHELL: Seventeen, 22, 3, and 7. 22 MR. GRANT: 23 Q That's the names that she's given. Okay. 24 Did Tyee Lake David hold the name Gyologyet? 25 A Yes. 26 Q And that's number 20. Is that presently held by 27 Gordon Hall? 28 A Yes. 29 Q Did Tyee Lake David later take the name Woos? 30 A I think he did. I can't remember very well that. 31 Q But he would be in the same house as Woos? 32 A Yes. The same, yes. 33 Q And that's number 21. Did Peter Michell hold the name 34 Gus ded'a lak'? 35 A Gus ded'a lak'. 36 Q Lak'? 37 A Yeah. 38 Q Number 23. That name is now held by Augustine Morris' 39 A Yes. 40 Q And Peter Michell was Margaret William's father? 41 A Yes. 42 Q Were these -- how big were these three halls in 43 Moricetown? 44 A They were pretty big. They's about the size of what 45 they have in a community hall in Moricetown now. 46 Q Okay. 47 A They were all big ones. Hagwilnegh's hall was built 27 1 by logs and that was big too. 2 Q When did -- how old were you when you were given your 3 name Guhe'? 4 A I must be around 14. 5 Q Okay. And was that -- was that at a feast? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And was that held in one of these halls? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Whose hall or which clan? 10 A At Hagwilnegh's, Hagwilnegh's hall. 11 Q And was it held in that hall because Hagwilnegh is the 12 same clan as you? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Can you tell us what happened at that feast that you 15 remember? 16 A Well, they -- my grandmother on my dad's side the 17 family, two of my aunts and my uncle, my dad's uncle 18 that Madeek, he's the one made the song for me, and my 19 aunt that walked in with me and show me how to act out 20 the name a gambler, it's -- they teach me before that 21 and I acted out as they call it Guhe' Kun gax. That's 22 what it's called. 2 3 Q Just a moment. 24 A And I walked into the hall and then I danced there and 25 then they talked about what name I was taking and then 26 they paid out the people that work with me and -- in 27 the feast house and then I was seated after that. 28 MR. GRANT: Okay. Kun gax is number 40, but it should be K-u-n 29 g-a-x. 30 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Excuse me, there was a word just before Kun gax 31 or Kun gax. I believe her words were "I acted 32 out..." -- 33 THE WITNESS: I acted out the name. I have to act it out as I 34 come in. 35 MR. GRANT: I think she repeated her name. 36 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Guhe'. 37 MR. GRANT: 38 Q You said two of your aunts helped you. Who were they? 39 Which aunts? 40 A That's Marian Naziel and her daughter Christine 41 Joseph. 42 Q And they are from your father's -- 43 A Yes. 44 Q — house? 45 A Yes. 46 Q And did Marian Michell sing for you at that feast? 47 A She sang with her brother Madeek. He's the one that 1 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 Q 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 22 A 23 Q 24 25 A 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 Q 36 37 A 38 Q 39 40 A 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 made the song. Okay. And that was Bill Nye? Yes. Was mooseskin used at that feast? Yes, there was. And who provided the mooseskin? My mother and my father. At that time was that mooseskin from -- My father's territory. And is that the territory at Buck Flats? Yes. Was money also used at that feast? Yes. And who provided the money? It was the same, my father. Uh-huh. And how did he earn that money? By trapping. Was that on the territory? Yes. Was there any reference made to his territory at your feast? Yes. Okay. Can you just describe what -- why reference was made to it and what was said? Well, they do that all the time if -- which territory the person holds the territory, whatever he get during the winter, meat also, it's dried up for the feast. If they kill animals it's all prepared for that feast, and so are the skins. And the fur that they trap, beavers, minks, martens, all sold and that's the money they use and they all announce it in the feast house where the money came from, how he earned it, how he got it, so the people sitting down knows where the money came from, where everything came from. Do you remember when you were young your parents coming home from feasts? Yes. And do you remember what they brought home from feasts? Yes. They usually -- before I got a name we never go to the feast house, we too young, and they don't allow children that's got no name. They don't go to the hall, just the parents, and they make us -- they have a baby-sitter for us, the older one look after us. We all stay in one house. We don't even go outside, and they tell us not to go outside until they come back. And then they bring stuff home, a lot of goodies for 29 us . Uh-huh. Stuff that they receive in the feast house they pass around to us. Did they bring home any furs? Yes. They bring home skins, furs, money, materials, blankets, towels. When your father died was there anyone else to take over the territory -- Yes. — at Buck Flats? Peter Alfred was. And that was Kanoots? Yes. Did your father train Peter Alfred before he died? Yes. Did he take him on the territory? Yes. And is it the same today that there is a person to take over after Peter Alfred? Yes. Did George Naziel use your father's territory? Yes. 24 MR. GRANT: Okay. Okay. I'll go off the record. 25 2 6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCHEON RECESS) 27 2 8 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) 29 3 0 MR. GRANT: Okay. We can go on the record now. Mrs. Bazil, we took the lunch break, and you're still under oath, you understand that? Yes. Now, this morning I referred to a person named Issiak who was in the House of Madeek. You recall me mentioning that name? Well, that part I think I said it earlier that I didn't know exactly what name he held. Okay. Was he in the House of Madeek? Yes. Okay. And did he use the territory that your father used? Yeah, before my father. Yes. Now, just a moment. I'm showing you a document entitled "Anaskaski Madeek - Gitumden" dated November 17th, 1987, which appears to be a genealogy chart. 1 2 Q 3 A 4 5 Q 6 A 7 8 Q 9 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 21 A 22 Q 23 A 31 Q 32 33 34 A 35 Q 36 37 38 A 39 40 Q 41 A 42 Q 43 44 A 45 Q 46 47 30 1 Have you seen a copy of that document before now? 2 A Yes, I did. 3 Q And have you reviewed that document with me? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And does it show the members of the House of Madeek? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And those are members that you know and some that were 8 before your time? 9 A Yes. 10 MR. GRANT: Okay. I'd ask that that be marked as Exhibit 2, 11 please? 12 MR. MACKENZIE: Okay. Mr. Grant, as we've discussed we are now 13 going to object to that being marked as a full trial 14 exhibit now. We didn't receive a copy of that, as is 15 required by the Chief Justice's order, and so not 16 having had notice of course we can't -- we haven't had 17 a chance to prepare for cross-examination. Now, as 18 we've also discussed, we have no serious objection now 19 to having it marked for identification. 20 MR. GRANT: Okay. Can you mark that as Exhibit A for 21 identification, please? 22 23 (EXHIBIT A FOR IDENTIFICATION: Genealogy chart 24 entitled "Anaskaski Madeek-Gitumden") 25 26 MR. GRANT: Thank you. I wish to just for the record set out 27 that I take the position that as this is not the 28 genealogy of the house of this witness we're not 29 obligated to provide you with notice. As I referred 30 in the correspondence when it was couriered to you 31 last week, and I understand for some reason you didn't 32 get that couriered last week, but that I was 33 forwarding it to you as a convenience because this 34 witness was going to be referring to her father. 35 There will be other witnesses at trial who will 36 probably refer to this genealogy as well, or at least 37 even if they don't refer to it that you will be able 38 to cross-examine them, and they will be witnesses 39 which will be giving evidence in January so you will 40 have well over 14 days. So the position I took with 41 respect to this genealogy is that it was not required 42 to be delivered to you. In any event, it was not 43 possible to be delivered to you. On November 17th it 44 was complete and I couriered it out to you the 45 following day. As soon as possible I couriered it to 4 6 you. 47 MS. KOENIGSBERG: If I may just interject, Mr. Grant, and ask if 31 1 this genealogy of Madeek being tendered through this 2 witness means that you intend for this witness to give 3 evidence with regard to the House of Madeek as opposed 4 just to the territory of Madeek as outlined in the 5 affidavit which you had submitted to us previously? 6 MR. GRANT: Well, this witness has already -- I don't know what 7 you mean by evidence with respect to the House of 8 Madeek. 9 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Evidence generally as to the House of Madeek. GRANT: Well, this witness has given evidence already about who members are of the House of Madeek, who the earlier Madeeks were, who her father was and his relations. This is back -- in my view, background evidence for other evidence that she will give. If you're asking me whether this witness is going to go through this name by name, no, I have no intention of doing that, but I do wish to refer to some parts of it. And for the record Exhibit A is the same as the document delivered to you except it does not have the reference to "Draft" which was stamped on that copy. It doesn't have that stamp on it. MACKENZIE: Before you go on, if I may -- have you finished your comment, Mr. Grant? GRANT: Sure. MACKENZIE: Before you go on, I wonder if I could also put our position in response to what you've just said. In our view, the Chief Justice's order settled on November 20 provides that the plaintiffs deliver to the defendants the documents the plaintiffs intend to rely on in the direct examination. And it is my understanding that you intended to rely upon the Madeek genealogy, although granted, as you say, it's not a genealogy of the Wah tah kwets, as required by the 14 day rule. So my position in summary is that in answer to your comment that if this does not fall within the term genealogy then it would fall within the term other documents upon which you wish to use in your direct examination. GRANT: Okay. And just to be -- okay. Just to be clear is that there was no way 14 days before today that I could know whether I was relying on this document because it did not exist. MACKENZIE: Yes. I don't mean to criticize you for that at all. I know you're -- GRANT: As soon as I knew it existed I brought it to your attention. MACKENZIE: Thank you very much. I see that at this point. 10 MR 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 MR 23 24 MR 25 MR 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 MR 40 41 42 43 MR 44 45 MR 46 47 MR 32 1 MR. GRANT: 2 Q 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 A 12 Q 13 14 A 15 Q 16 17 18 A 19 Q 20 21 A 22 Q 23 24 A 25 Q 26 27 A 28 Q 29 30 A 31 32 Q 33 34 35 36 37 A 38 Q 39 40 A 41 Q 42 A 43 44 45 Q 46 A 47 Okay. Now, on this genealogy -- I'll just put that exhibit in front of you, Exhibit A. Just to give us a sense of who these people are, maybe Mr. Holland can assist you. Referring to page 6, the last page of the genealogy. Now, Mr. Holland, rather than me leaning over, maybe you can point out some of these names, if my friends don't object, when I refer to them? On page 6 is Donald Jim Mooseskin. Is that -- that is the person you refer to as your father? Yes. And of course your mother Mary Joseph Mooseskin is referred to there? Yes. And above that is Deliiz, Theresa Wisalop, and Mooseskin Johnny Kweese and that was your grandparents, your father's parents; is that right? Yes. Now, your grandmother Deliiz had a sister who was married to Big Dan George; is that right? Yes. Okay. Now, Deliiz's mother, in the upper left-hand side, you do not recall her name? I don't remember them. Okay. Was she the sister of Sophie Naziel, referring over to page 5? I heard about this one, the one you referred to. Was she your grandmother -- do you know if she was your grandmother Deliiz's aunt? Niece I think they were. My grandmother was older than this Sophie. Oh, okay. Now, turning to page 3, two pages over, there's a reference to "Issiak Alexander", and under that "Azak Coo". This is at the top. This Issiak Alexander, is this the Azak that you were referring to? Yes. And is Azak Coo, that's A-z-a-k, one word, C-o-o, the second word? Yes. Is that how you knew him by that name? I heard the name. I didn't meet him. I heard his name. That's how they call him Azak Coo. That's all I know him by. And what does that mean? It's a -- it's a big Isaac. That's what it is in English. 33 1 MR. GRANT: Okay. 2 MR. MACKENZIE: Mr. Grant, may I interrupt to ask when the 3 witness is talking about members of the House of 4 Madeek she has said a couple of times "I heard his 5 name.". And it would be helpful if she could indicate 6 the source of her information. 7 MR. GRANT: 8 Q Sure. Yes. If I overlook any point feel free to 9 interject. Yes. 10 Who -- you said that you heard of Azak Coo. Who 11 told you about Azak Coo? 12 A Well, my -- he was -- hold the -- hold the territory 13 before my father. 14 Q Yes? 15 A And my father even showed us where they used to live. 16 Q Where who used to -- 17 A Where Azak Coo used to live, and that's how he mention 18 his name. "This is my uncle, Azak Coo used to live 19 like this." And it wasn't a house, it was -- it's 20 just like a tee pee, but is made out of branches. 21 Everything was all -- sticks was still standing under 22 the tree, big trees, and this is where they used to 23 live before he -- my father -- well, he said he showed 24 him the area when my father was younger before he took 25 over. He was with him. And that's where they used to 26 live. 27 Q Okay. 28 A That's how he mentioned his name was always Azak Coo. 29 That's how I remembered him. 30 Q And you saw part of the structure where Azak Coo 31 lived -- 32 A Yes. 33 Q -- yourself? 34 A Yes, I did. 35 Q And you remember it. And was this on the Ts'un c'os 36 'aay territory? 37 A Yes. 38 Q Now, going to page 2 of Exhibit A, was Bill Nye a 39 brother of Azak Coo? 40 A Yes. 41 Q Now, just going back to Azak Coo, do you know what the 42 name of his wife was? 43 A No. 44 Q Okay. And did Bill Nye and Azak -- and Azak Coo have 45 a sister named Marian? 46 A Yes. 47 Q And how was Marian -- how was George Naziel related to 1 2 A 3 Q 4 5 A 6 Q 7 8 9 10 A 11 Q 12 13 A 14 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 Q 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 Q 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 39 40 A 41 Q 42 43 44 A 45 Q 46 47 A 34 Marian? It's his mother. Okay. And Marian was married to someone whose name was Naziel? Yes. Okay. Referring to page 1 of the genealogy, the -- the top line on page 1 that George Naziel, who married Jenny Bazil, that is the George Naziel who was Madeek until his death recently? Yes. And he had -- do you know the names of his brothers, George Naziel's? One I remember it's Dick Naziel. The rest are before my time. Did he have any sisters? I remember one of them, Christine Joseph. Okay. She married Pat Joseph? Yes. Okay. And Christine Joseph had a number of children? Yes. Okay. Do you remember Sarah Joseph? Yes. Is that one of her children? Yes. And Hazel Mitchell? Yes. Joseph Joseph? Yes. Flossie Joseph? Yes. Matilda Joseph? Yes. Mary Joseph? Yes. And Alice Joseph? Yes. And under Wet'suwet'en law would the children of her daughters, Christine Naziel's daughters, would their children be members of the House of Madeek? Yes. Now, you've told us earlier that you were born at Houston. When you were small, did the Wet'suwet'en live at Houston? Yes, quite a few of them. Do you recall some of the people that lived at Houston, their names? Well, there was Jim Holland, Enoch Seymour, Sats'aan, 1 2 3 Q 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 A 9 Q 10 11 A 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Q 19 20 A 21 22 Q 23 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 Q 28 29 A 30 Q 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 A 3 6 MR. GRANT 37 38 39 40 41 42 MR. macke: 43 44 45 4 6 MR. GRANT 47 35 his name was Houston Tommy, Round Lake Tommy, my father, mother. Uh-huh. And there's others. I can't recall the name. Okay. Did Alec Tiljoe live there? Yes. Did Alfred Namox live there? Yes. Now, did these people live at Houston all year 'round in the town? No. Houston is just like a stopping place for them when they go and are trapping. Some of them had houses there. When they going out trapping, they get prepared there to go out trapping and when they come back from trapping they -- they get their rest there, and it's just like a home to them. Everything was there for them. When you were small, did your family only have a house at Houston? Well, there's house in Houston and I remember there's a house at Buck Flat too. Okay. Now, when you refer to Buck Flats, is there a Wet'suwet'en name for that place? Yes. What's it called in Wet'suwet'en? Ts'un c'os 'aay. Now, I wish to show you a photograph. Do you recognize that place in that photograph? Yes, I do. Can you tell us what it is? It's the house I grew up. And where was it? It's in my father's territory. Okay. And who built that house? My father did. : Okay. Can we mark that as Exhibit 2? Maybe we should, with the leave of my friends, I'd like to mark it as Exhibit 3 just so that we don't -- in case the other one's marked as an exhibit proper. So mark it as Exhibit 3, please? Now, I'm not effectively reserving that place. JZIE: I'm not objecting to this photograph being marked, but I note that we haven't received a copy and I understand you delivered a copy, you arranged for a copy to be delivered to us last week. : I couriered a copy to your office. Yes. It was not delivered to your office today? 36 1 MR. MACKENZIE: No, I checked. It hasn't arrived yet, but it may 2 arrive. 3 MR. GRANT: Maybe the mail's better than couriers. Okay. Mark 4 that as Exhibit 3, please? 5 6 (EXHIBIT 3: Photograph showing L. Bazil's father's 7 house) Now, there's -- in Exhibit 3 there are two buildings, one where you see the roof quite clearly on the left, and then one to the right. Can you tell us which one was the house that was your father's house? It's the front one on my left-hand side with the pipe. Okay. That's the one. Now, what was that building to the left where you see the side of the roof? My father had two horse at all times. It's a barn for the horse. Okay. And the hay shed on top. : Okay. JZIE: Now, Mr. Grant, you're referring to the barn in the background at the right? 3S: My left. This is the — I said right. This is the left-hand on my side. Just point to the house? This is the house. And point to the barn? This is the barn. So the one that you see in the background on the right-hand side, the roof sort of at an angle, is the barn. Now, did your father have another house there before that house? Yeah, it's one smaller than that one. It's behind that big house where you're looking at. You can't see it in this picture? It was still there at the time, but it's hidden by the front one. Okay. How old -- did you travel out onto your father's territory from the time that you were very young? Yes. Okay. When's the first trip that you remember, that 9 MR. GRANT 10 Q 11 12 13 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 19 A 20 21 Q 22 A 23 MR. GRANT 24 MR. macke: 25 26 THE WITNE 27 28 MR. GRANT 29 Q 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 Q 34 35 36 37 38 A 39 40 Q 41 A 42 43 Q 44 45 46 A 47 Q 1 2 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 7 8 Q 9 10 A 11 Q 12 13 A 14 Q 15 16 A 17 Q 18 19 A 20 21 Q 22 23 A 24 Q 25 A 26 27 28 Q 29 30 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 37 38 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 A 45 Q 46 47 A 37 is, when can you remember going on your father's territory? How old were you then? I might be about ten. Okay. Well, earlier than that I remember all this area close to the house, but when he start checking his traps to these other cabins I must be -- I was about ten. Okay. But you remember going to Buck Flats before then? Oh, yes. Yes. Before that, yeah. As far as you know did your family go there every year even from the time you were born? Before I was born. Yes. What time of year would you leave Houston to go out to the territory? Around August. And what did you -- what did your father or your family do when you went out there in August? That's when he put up hay for the horse for the winter. Okay. How did you travel to the territory? What route did you follow? The highway. It's still there. Was it a highway then? There was a -- not very much, not like the one today, but it was -- first was trail and then after that was wagon road. Yeah. So the trail that was used when you were young followed the same route as the present road from Houston to Buck Flats, is that -- Not the wagon road. The trail was shorter. Uh-huh. And on top of the hill going to Houston — Uh-huh. -- that's foot trail. That's shorter. If anybody on foot that's what they use, but wagon it's around. It starts from the bottom of the -- about two miles down from Houston. That's where the turn-off is. Uh-huh. That's a wagon -- Uh-huh. That's where it starts from. Right. But walking is mostly by the river. Okay. Who did you go out on the territory with when you were young? My father. 1 Q 2 3 4 5 A 6 Q 7 A 8 Q 9 10 11 A 12 13 Q 14 15 A 16 Q 17 18 A 19 Q 20 21 A 22 Q 23 24 A 25 26 Q 27 28 A 29 Q 30 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 Q 37 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 43 A 44 Q 45 46 47 A Okay. I -- I -- my question isn't that clear, Mrs. Bazil. When you travelled from Houston to the territory, who did you go with from Houston to your house at Buck Flats? Well, my father and my mother, whole family. Okay. And your brother Peter? Yes. How old were you on -- when you last travelled out there with your father and your mother and your family? I think I was up there with my father and mother was about 11 because I went to school when I was 12. Okay. When you came back from school did you go back out there? Yes. Okay. Did you -- you indicated earlier you got married in 1936? Yes. Did you travel out with your family there until you got married? Yes. Until I got married. How long would it take you to travel from Houston to your home at Buck Flats? With a team of horse it usually take us a good eight hours. And did you walk out on that territory when you were younger? Yes. And how long would it take you to walk from Houston to your place? Oh, it takes -- well, we camp half ways. You camp overnight half ways? Yes. So it would take two days? Yes. Was there a place where you camped when you stayed out? Yes. Where was that? At Bob Creek. Okay. Is there a Wet'suwet'en name for Bob Creek for where you camped? I can't remember the name. There was a name for it. Now, you said you went out in August and your father put up hay. What did you do after? Did you stay out there after the haying season was over? Yeah, we stayed there. It's about the time that he 1 2 Q 3 A 4 5 Q 6 7 A 8 9 Q 10 A 11 12 13 Q 14 A 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q 23 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 28 Q 29 A 30 31 Q 32 33 34 A 35 36 37 38 Q 39 40 A 41 42 Q 43 44 A 45 Q 46 47 A 39 move up there for the winter. Uh-huh. And after he finished haying around October, that's when he set his trapping for furs, beavers and that. Now, where -- can you see in that picture, Exhibit 3, where your father's hay fields were? Well, you can see on the picture here that the open in front here that's one of the part of it. That's in the foreground for the record? Yeah. And then the river goes right around from where you see the barn to the end of this house. The river's round like this. It goes behind it? Yeah, it goes behind it. And in behind that barn there's all brush there now. When the picture was taken it was all clear as I remembered, and that was all hay field there, and my mother and dad had a garden there too. They put potatoes for winter, vegetables, turnips and carrots there. And there's another field, you can see it there right in front of the barn. There's another field there. That's that clearing that's to the right of the picture in the middle part of the picture? Yes. That's another hay field. Okay. Now, who cleared those fields? My mother and my father. We all helped too. I remember helping them. Did they clear them by hand? Yes. Well, the stumps they pull them out with a horse. Now, would you -- when would you return to Houston from there if you went out in August? What time of year would you return? Well, if there's no snow -- not too much snow, well, we'll go back to Houston around Christmas with a team of horse. If it's too much snow we stayed in Buck Flat. And how long if you went back to Houston would you stay there? About a week. A week, week and a half, and then go back up again. And then you -- would you return to the territory then? Yes. Okay. And how long would you stay on the territory after Christmas? Well, my father quits -- quit his trapping around 1 2 Q 3 A 4 5 6 Q 7 A 8 9 10 Q 11 12 A 13 Q 14 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 24 Q 25 A 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 Q 31 32 A 33 Q 34 35 A 36 37 38 Q 39 40 A 41 Q 42 43 A 44 45 Q 46 A 47 40 March. Why was that? Because that's when the fur is -- start losing the hair and the fur inside start to go dark, so there's no market for it. And after he stopped trapping what did you do? He just get ready to go to Moricetown. He hunts moose or whatever and they smoke them, get them ready to bring to Moricetown. What time of year would you go to Moricetown with your family? Around June the 1st. Okay. And would that be -- how would you travel to Moricetown? With a team of horse. And a wagon? Yes. And how long would it take for you to go from your territory to -- your father's territory to Moricetown? About four days. And where did you stay in Moricetown then? My grandfather, my father's father, he has place across from Moricetown across the river. Okay. This is the one you referred to this morning -- Yes. -- where there was a farm -- Yes. -- and a smoke house? Yes. Okay. Now, do you remember if that house had an upstairs and a downstairs? Yes. There was upstairs and downstairs. Okay. Why would you travel to Moricetown at the beginning of June? That's when all the feast is done and then salmon runs. That's where they get their salmon prepare for winter to take back to their territory. You say your family travelled to Moricetown. Did they ever travel to Hagwilget at that time of year? Yes, they do too. Okay. And why would you travel to Hagwilget? What did your family do there? That's for feast too. They invite Hagwilget people. They invite people from Moricetown. Okay. And Moricetown during their feast they invite Hagwilget. So if they invite them back and they stay 1 2 Q 3 4 5 A 6 Q 7 A 8 Q 9 10 A 11 12 Q 13 14 15 16 17 18 A 19 Q 20 21 22 A 23 Q 24 25 A 26 Q 27 28 A 29 Q 30 31 32 A 33 Q 34 A 35 Q 36 37 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 43 A 44 Q 45 A 46 Q 47 41 about a week, week and a half, in Hagwilget. And when you're referring to Hagwilget and Moricetown this is -- these communities then were located where they are located today? Yes. Is that right? Yes. Okay. Now, how long would you stay at Hagwilget if you were up there for feasting? About a week or so, whenever they finish, then come back to Moricetown. Okay. And then when you returned to Moricetown, or if you didn't go to Hagwilget, when you were at Moricetown -- when you returned to Moricetown or if you hadn't gone to Hagwilget when you were at Moricetown, what -- what would your father and your family do then at Moricetown? Fishing. Okay. Was there any particular places in the Moricetown canyon which your father used as fishing sites? Yes. It was his father's site where he used to fish. Okay. And do you recall what side of the river that was on? It's on the same side as that where the house is. Okay. So if we refer to highway side of the river, it would be on the opposite side? On the opposite side of the river -- the bridge, yeah. Okay. Now, you know the canyon and there's presently a small bridge that crosses over near the canyon over the canyon at Moricetown? Yes. You're familiar with that? Yes. Would -- would the -- your grandfather's fishing sites be upstream of that bridge, that is, on the Smithers side of that bridge? It's upper side of the bridge. Upper side? Yes. Okay. Do you know where the fish ladders are located today? Yes. Have you seen them? Yes. Was your grandfather's site above those fish ladders or below? 42 1 A 2 Q 3 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 A 9 Q 10 A 11 Q 12 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 20 A 21 22 23 Q 24 25 A 26 27 Q 28 A 2 9 MR. GRANT 30 31 32 33 34 35 3 6 MR. GRANT 37 Q 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Just below it. Just below it, yeah. Okay. How did your father fish at Moricetown when he went and used your grandfather's site? With the gaff. Similar to what is done today? Yes. Okay. And what kind of fish would he catch there? Spring salmon. Okay. And sockeye. Okay. And were you involved in the drying and the preserving of those fish? Yes. And how would you preserve those fish? Well, they salt some and then they dry most of it. And when you say "dry", would it be smoke dried? Yes, full dry smoke. Now, you said "full dry", is that different than how they dry it sometimes today? Yeah. Today is half dried and they just freeze them. Those days they make it full dry because there was no freezer. Okay. And then your father -- then after -- how long would you stay in Moricetown for the fishing season? Around middle of August or sometimes if they get things done early, leave earlier. Okay. And then you would refer to Buck Flats? Yes. : Okay. Go off the record now because of the video tape change. So we'll take a break. (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR AFTERNOON RECESS) (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) Okay. Mrs. Bazil, you're still under oath. This is the beginning of tape 2 of the commission evidence of Lucy Bazil and is after the afternoon adjournment on the first day of evidence November 23rd, 1987. Before the break I was asking you about where your grandfather's fishing sites were and you told me that -- you told us that your father used a gaff. When you were younger do you remember anybody using -- fishing at Moricetown canyon in other ways than by gaff? Yes. They call it Con ts'ee. It's a fish basket. 43 1 There was two I remember. 2 MR. GRANT: Okay. Do you have a spelling for that, Mr. 3 Mitchell? 4 MR. MITCHELL: Thirty-nine. 5 MR. GRANT: 6 Q Now, you've described that you travelled from Houston 7 to your father's territory at Ts'un c'os 'aay from the 8 time that you were very small from before you even 9 remember in fact; is that right? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Then you started to describe that you travelled with 12 your father further from your home place, which is 13 shown in Exhibit 3, in the Ts'un c'os 'aay territory 14 when you were older? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And when do you -- how old were you about when you 17 started to travel with your father on the territory? 18 A I figure about 10 and 11. 19 Q Okay. Now, I'm showing you an affidavit -- just a 20 moment, an affidavit sworn on the 16th of November, 21 1987, and I'll show you the last page of that 22 affidavit and ask you if that's your signature there? 23 A Yes. 24 MR. GRANT: Okay. Now, Mr. Mackenzie has indicated at the 25 break that there's some objection to the paragraphs 9 26 and 10, that is, the terminology that is used there, 27 and he has proposed a method of dealing with that. I 28 would like to consider that overnight, but what I 29 would like to do is to mark this affidavit now as 30 Exhibit B for identification because I'm going to be 31 referring to other parts of it than those two 32 paragraphs. And I want to advise you the reason I'm 33 using it -- in other words, it's -- your objection's 34 noted. It's only Exhibit B for identification. I 35 don't want to make a quick decision on what position I 36 take on your objection, but if we don't put the 37 affidavit in we're going to spend more time on words 38 than I would like to do in this commission and 39 references I want to make in the affidavit. So it can 40 be marked as an exhibit for identification I think. 41 That just shows that it's what I'm referring to, the 42 document I'm referring to, and of course that doesn't 43 make it an exhibit proper. Is that satisfactory for 44 now? She's identified her signature and so it's a 45 document that she can identify and that's all it 46 stands for really at this point. 47 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. Our position, which I'll indicate now, is 44 1 that paragraphs 9 and 10 go beyond the order of the 2 Chief Justice as settled on November 20th in that they 3 relate to material in excess of the subjects permitted 4 to be adduced by affidavit, and also in that insofar 5 as they allege ownership and harvesting on the 6 territory. And our position is that that affidavit 7 cannot be marked and that no questions can be led on 8 that affidavit. Now, we do not object to you asking 9 questions about material in the affidavit and I'm 10 going to allow it to be marked as an exhibit for 11 identification, but I will not -- at least I will 12 object to having that marked as an exhibit with those 13 two paragraphs remaining in it. 14 MR. GRANT: Okay. Would you mark it as Exhibit B for 15 identification, please? 16 17 (EXHIBIT B FOR IDENTIFICATION: Affidavit of Lucy 18 Bazil) 19 2 0 MR. GRANT: 21 Q You had reviewed this affidavit before you signed it; 22 is that right? 23 A Yes. 24 Q The facts set out there are true? 25 A Yes. 26 Q Now, can you tell us where -- and I know you travelled 27 in different parts of the territory with your father, 28 can you tell us where you travelled on the Ts'un c'os 29 'aay territory with your father? 30 A Well, he's got lines where he sets traps -- 31 Q Yes. 32 A -- for martens, fisher or whatever he can get, and it 33 takes him one whole day to get there on foot with snow 34 shoes. Then he has cabin at the end of each line that 35 he has. 36 MR. GRANT: Okay. 37 MR. MACKENZIE: Mr. Grant, I'm sorry to interrupt. There's one 38 more point that I wanted to add, that our objection to 39 those two paragraphs at this time should not be taken 40 as a -- meaning that we do not reserve our rights to 41 object for other reasons to other parts of the exhibit 42 at appropriate times when this commission evidence is 43 put into trial -- at trial. 44 MR. GRANT: Yes. Well, my understanding of the order is that 45 the deponents will be available at trial or on 46 commissions may be agreed upon or as may be ordered in 47 due course for cross-examination, and that of course 45 1 this witness will be available now during this 2 commission for cross-examination on the affidavit and 3 it was -- actually this commission was postponed one 4 week in order to give you the seven days to do that. 5 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 6 MR. GRANT: And so I would be concerned if you withheld 7 cross-examination on this affidavit now because I 8 don't want this witness inconvenienced unnecessarily 9 by having to come back. You've got your seven days 10 notice on the affidavit and I anticipate that you will 11 cross-examine to the extent you wish upon it. 12 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. That's true, and we will cross-examine this 13 week, and I didn't mean to imply that. We wouldn't 14 ask for later cross-examination. It's just that we 15 reserve our rights to object to some of the evidence 16 that's being led because we don't want to hold up the 17 commissions now. And you've also indicated your 18 objections to telephone conferencing to obtain rulings 19 so with all those considerations in mind at this point 20 we reserve our rights to, when the evidence is put in 21 at trial, to object. 22 MR. GRANT: Well, I may say that's one of the concerns I have 23 regarding your objection to paragraph 10 because 24 clearly this evidence, the exception to the Hearsay 25 Rule to which this evidence -- upon which this 26 evidence relies, as ordered by the Chief Justice, 27 depends upon statements as are in paragraph 10 of 28 reputation. And reputation is an important part, and 29 I cannot agree to not allowing evidence of reputation 30 of boundaries going in by affidavit because otherwise 31 we -- the affidavits are meaningless because you will 32 object on the hearsay ground because there will be no 33 evidence of reputation. And reputation is an 34 important part of that admissibility. 35 MR. MACKENZIE: I think we're in agreement on reputation being an 36 exception to the Hearsay Rule. I think there's some 37 misunderstanding about the reason why we're objecting 38 to paragraph 10, but I think there's some agreement on 39 what you've just said. 4 0 MR. GRANT: 41 Q Okay. Now, I will refer you to page 4 of the 42 affidavit and there's a heading at the bottom of 43 paragraph 7 called "House and campsites". Now, -- and 44 there's a handwritten comment in there that "My father 45 had cabins at these places.", after referring to four 46 places. The first place is Ts'un c'os 'aay, and then 47 there's Whuus ts'anlii? 46 1 A Yes. 2 Q Taan deet? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And Taaniits c'ekeen s'aay? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Are those -- did you see your father's cabins at those 7 places? 8 A Yes, I did. 9 Q Now, can you describe -- well, Ts'un c'os 'aay, was 10 that the house that is in Exhibit 3? 11 A Yes. 12 Q So that was where your father's main house was? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Now, the second one referred to there is Whuus 15 ts'anlii. Did you travel there with your father? 16 A Yes. The Whuus ts'anlii, we go there in spring. 17 That's when they trap beaver and muskrat and they stay 18 there for about a week, a week or so, they get what 19 they went, and then they move out there again. 20 Q Okay. How would you travel from your house to there? 21 A Team of horse, and then off the highway they just take 22 the horse in there, leave the wagon on the highway. 23 Q Okay. And can you describe where that place is in 24 relation to your house site at Ts'un c'os 'aay? 25 A It's down towards Houston. That's about the end of 26 the territory there towards Dzel teel k'un, towards 27 that high peak mountain, just below it. There's two 28 little lakes there and this is where they do their 29 trapping. 30 MR. GRANT: Do you have that name by the way? You have it for 31 the reporter, the spelling? 32 MR. MITCHELL: Yes, number 49. 33 MR. GRANT: 34 Q Number 49. We'll have -- we'll take photocopies of 35 your amended list and pass them around in due course. 36 Do you know if there is a name that the none 37 Indians call that mountain? 38 A Well, that's Morice Mountain, Morice River Mountain. 39 It's a long one. 40 Q Okay. Did your father have the territory on the other 41 side of Morice Mountain from Whuus ts'anlii, in other 42 words, if he crossed over the mountain, was that still 43 part of his territory? 44 A I don't know that part. He never went out that far. 45 Q Uh-huh. 46 A Maybe it was, but it's too far to walk. It's quite a 47 big mountain. 47 1 Q Do you know what territory was next to him in that 2 area? 3 A C'el tay toostaan kwe, that's Houston Tommy's. 4 Q You've described in your affidavit a campsite or cabin 5 site at Taan deet? 6 A Taan deet, yes. 7 Q Where is that in relation to your house? 8 A It's -- that's another line that he goes -- it's on 9 the other mountain Taneen, Taneen K'uts Legh. That's 10 the opposite side. 11 Q That is "G" under "Hills". Is that mountain — 12 A That's shown behind the house on the picture here. 13 Q Can you put a mark where Taneen K'uts Legh is? You 14 can just make a mark with a X. 15 A Well, it's right here at the end. He walks over the 16 end here and on the other side where Taan deet is. 17 That's how far he goes. 18 MR. GRANT: Okay. Could you mark that with an "X" just where 19 he goes over there? 20 MR. MACKENZIE: Mr. Grant, the witness mentioned an Indian name 21 before she talked about Houston Tommy's territory and 22 in answer to your question "What was the next 23 territory?" She said an Indian name and then said 24 Houston Tommy. 25 THE WITNESS: It's C'el tay toostaan kwe. 26 MR. MACKENZIE: What's that? 27 THE WITNESS: That's Houston Tommy's area, trapping area. It's 28 up in Morice River. 29 MR. GRANT: Just wait. Do you have -- do you want the spelling 30 of that? 31 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, please. 32 MR. GRANT: Okay. Do you want to give the spelling of that? 33 MR. MITCHELL: C-'-e underlined 1, t-a-y- t-o-o-s-t-a-a-n 34 k-w-e. 35 MR. GRANT: 36 Q Now, in Exhibit 3 you've marked with an "X" where the 37 hill in the background goes down. Is the hill, the 38 ridge that's behind in the most of that picture in the 39 background, is there a name for that? 4 0 A That mountain's name Taaneen K'uts. 41 MR. GRANT: Okay. That's — 42 MR. MITCHELL: Thirty-one. 4 3 MR. GRANT: 44 Q Thirty-one on the list. That's also referred to on 45 the list of hills, the sixth one down on page 4 of the 46 affidavit. 47 Can you just put a number one in the middle of 48 1 that ridge for the record? 2 A Number one just up here. 3 MR. GRANT: Yes, where that ridge is Taaneen K'uts. Okay. 4 Thank you. Just mark it with a blue pen, a number 5 one. 6 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Excuse me, just for a point of clarification. 7 MR. GRANT: Just a moment. I want to be -- to go off the record 8 because there's some concern the word person has. 9 MS. KOENIGSBERG: I hope it's the same concern I have. Off the record. (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION) Okay. Let's go back on the record. Okay. Just there was confusion. The name of the ridge which is marked as number 1 is the sixth name down on page four under "Hills", Taaneen K'uts, and it's number 51 on the word list for her evidence, not number 31. When your father was at Whuus ts'anlii, that camp that was near Morice Mountain, do you remember if he hunted on Morice Mountain? Yes, he do, but he doesn't go too far up. He gets bear out of there. You had said earlier that your mom -- mother and father showed you where Azak Coo had a branch house and you said that was on the territory at Ts'un c'os 'aay? Yes. Can you describe where it was on the territory in relation to other geographic land marks? Well, that house on the picture there that would be about two miles below it towards Houston. When you say -- and that is below it on Neen Lii kwe, the Buck Creek? Yeah. It's along the river. Yeah. Neen Lii kwe is the second name under "Rivers" on page 4 of the affidavit. Did your father -- you indicated earlier that your father had took Peter Alfred out to the territory? Yes. When did he start to take Peter out to the territory? I remember about 1930. Okay. Did Peter stay with you at your house at Ts'un c'os 'aay? Yes. Yes, he did. And why did your father take Peter out? 10 MR. GRANT 11 12 13 14 MR. GRANT 15 Q 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A 24 25 Q 26 27 28 29 A 30 Q 31 32 A 33 34 Q 35 36 A 37 Q 38 39 40 41 A 42 Q 43 A 44 Q 45 46 A 47 Q 49 1 A Because my father was not feeling good anymore to do 2 his -- do much trapping himself, and he feel that he 3 was getting older and he decide that Peter's going to 4 be the next, so he took him out to show him the 5 territory. 6 Q Did Peter use the territory after your father died? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Okay. Now, I believe you described that after your 9 father died Sarah Holland took the name — 10 A Yes. 11 Q — Kanoots? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Now, did she use the territory? 14 A She didn't. She was a woman and her husband was busy 15 and she never did went there. 16 Q Okay. Did Peter use the territory while she held the 17 name Kanoots? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And did he -- was there anything he did for her? 20 A Yes, he shared with whatever he got from there. 21 MR. MACKENZIE: Mr. Grant, are these aspects of the evidence 22 about the use of Madeek's territory that the witness 23 is describing now her personal knowledge? 2 4 MR. GRANT: 25 Q Okay. Peter Alfred is now deceased? 26 A Yes. 27 Q And when he went onto the territory did he go on 28 with -- did he go onto the territory alone? 29 A George Naziel and Peter Alfred and his wife went with 30 him. 31 Q Okay. And his wife was Madeline Alfred? 32 A Yes. 33 Q Okay. And George Naziel is now deceased? 34 A Yes. 35 Q Okay. You were with your father on the territory when 36 he was training Peter about the territory? 37 A Yes. 1930 I was still at home, and '31 he went up 38 there again with his wife. That's when he got 39 married. 40 Q Peter Alfred did? 41 A Yeah, and I was still at home. 42 Q Okay. Do you know a place which is known as Parrot 43 Lake? 44 A I don't remember that. 45 Q Okay. Did you know Thomas George? 46 A Yes. 47 Q What name did Thomas George hold? 1 A 2 Q 3 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 9 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 25 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 30 A 31 Q 32 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 Q 37 A 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 A 42 Q 43 A 44 Q 45 A 46 Q 47 A 50 Gisdaywa. Okay. Did Gisdaywa, Thomas George, have a territory near your father's? Yes. Where was that? It was just next to my fathers. In your affidavit you say that Gisdaywa's territory, in paragraph 6 on page 3, Gisdaywa's territory is to the west of your father's territory; is that right? Yes. Okay. And today Alfred Joseph is Gisdaywa? Yes. Did you know a place called Neen lii? Yes. Can you tell us what Neen lii is? Well, it's south -- it's the south side of Buck Flat where you see that picture. In this picture here of the house? Yes. Okay. And did you know Alfred Namox? Yes. And did he travel through your father's territory? Yes, they go through there with a team of horse and they stay overnight at our place when they going on the way to their territory. And where was Alfred Namox's territory? Just above by Neen lii is the line. Okay. And was Alfred Namox -- did he hold the chief's name Namox? Yes. Okay. Did you know Peter -- oh, and Alfred Namox was a member of the Tsayu clan? Yes. Did you know Peter Pierre? Yes. And what clan did he belong to? He's Gitdumden. Okay. And was he from Madeek's house? Yes. Do you recall the name he held? I don't remember. Do you remember telling me that name before? I did, but I can't remember now. Do you remember the name Sk'a deen, number 27? Sk'a deen? Sk'a deen. Was that his name? Yes. 1 Q 2 3 4 5 A 6 Q 7 A 8 Q 9 10 A 11 12 13 14 15 Q 16 17 A 18 Q 19 20 21 22 A 23 Q 24 25 26 27 A 28 29 30 31 Q 32 33 A 34 35 Q 36 A 37 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 42 A 43 44 45 46 47 51 Now, in Exhibit B you have described the boundaries of your father's territory, and I'm referring you to paragraph 5, and you have reviewed these boundaries before signing this affidavit? Yes. And they are correct? Yes. Now, how did you know the boundaries of your father's territory? Well, not only once that my father will talk about it, my brother, me and my mother, all -- he talked about it a lot, how it was, and where he went, and how far he goes, and every day he went somewhere he talks about it. That's how I know where the territory is. Did he talk to you about who -- which chiefs held the territories next to his? Yes. Now, I was asking you about some of the camps of your father and you've explained where Whuus ts'anlii was and Taan deet was. Did your father have a camp called Taaniits c'ek'een s'aay? Yes. And it's the last one under "Houses and campsites" on page 4 of the affidavit. Did -- can you describe where that was in relation to your house site in Exhibit 3? It's on the west side of that. The picture, if you look at -- it's on the west side. It's the opposite side of that mountain you're looking at that's on the west. So it would be on the left side of the picture as you're facing the picture? Well, you see, I'm looking at it this way, so it was sitting this way from the highway. Uh-huh. And it's on this side. That's the west side. That's where Taaniits ts'anlii -- Taaniits c'ek'een s'aay. So it would be behind the person taking the picture? Yeah, behind him like. Right. What kind of a place did your father have at Taaniits c'ek'een s'aay? It's a swamp. I've been there with him lots of times. It's a big swamp and it's -- right in the middle of it is a little lake and we call it the pond I guess and that's where all the beavers has their houses for winter. I don't know what they call it in English, but that's what it is and that's the name. That's 1 2 3 Q 4 A 5 6 Q 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 12 A 13 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 18 A 19 Q 20 21 A 22 Q 23 24 A 25 26 Q 27 A 28 29 30 Q 31 A 32 33 Q 34 35 36 A 37 Q 38 39 A 40 Q 41 A 42 43 44 45 46 47 52 what they call it, Taaniits c'ek'een s'aay. C'ek'een means that beaver they make a house like. Right. And that's where they trap their beavers in the fall and in the spring. So he has cabin there too. And you travelled there with your father? Yes, many times. Now, do you know the chief's name Smogelgem? Yes. And did Smogelgem have a territory next to your father's? I never been there, but I heard about it. It's past -- further up. Further up Buck Flat or Buck Creek? Yes. Uh-huh. I hear about it. And did Wah tah kwets have a territory near your father's? Yes. It was next to him down towards Houston. And to the south of the Ts'un c'os 'aay territory did Smogelgem have another territory? I don't know about that one. Did your father tell you how long this territory had belonged to Madeek? Well, he didn't say miles or anything like that, but he point them out every time we travelled. Uh-huh. He'd tell us -- he pointed out the hills and creeks and where the lakes are all that they always for the lines, like where the inside their lines. Uh-huh. Their territory, and every time we travelled he points them out to us. And did he tell you -- had this territory, the boundaries of this territory, changed in your lifetime? Yes, it did. Okay. Can -- do you understand what I mean by that question? Have the boundaries changed? Yes. How have they changed? Well, my father said that the area, the trapping territory, was where he pointed out to us how -- how far they go, but then after the -- somehow the game warden give them the maps, they mapped it out for them, and he said something like "It's only 16 miles square and it's supposed to be bigger than that.", but this is what they gave him. I know he was complaining 1 2 Q 3 4 5 A 6 Q 7 8 9 A 10 Q 11 12 A 13 Q 14 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A 26 Q 27 28 A 29 Q 30 A 31 32 Q 33 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 A 39 40 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 45 A 46 Q 47 53 about it a lot of times not only once. Okay. So what you're saying is the game warden gave -- registered as a trap line less than what your father's territory was? Yes. Yes. Did the territory change as far as the Wet'suwet'en were concerned? Did other chiefs take part of your father's territory? No. Okay. And you've heard this territory described in the feast hall? Yes. Did your father tell you which house owned this territory? Madeek's House. Who taught your father about this territory? Azak Coo. Okay. Now, I just refer you to paragraph 9. Now, that says in paragraph 9 at the bottom it was passed on to him by the former Kanoots, Azak, who's now deceased. Now, I understand your evidence today is that you're not certain if Azak Coo held the name Kanoots; is that right? Yes. Okay. So that that's -- that may not have been his name? Yes. But it was Azak Coo -- Azak Coo. He's the one that remained there until the day he died and then my father took over. Okay. Do you remember any non-Indian people living on your father's territory? Yes. When you were young? Yes. Do you remember their names? There's two families were there, as I remember, one was below us towards Houston was Dick Hayes. He had a farm there. Uh-huh. Another -- another family above us was Tony Lapelle. Yes. Do you remember when Dick Hayes moved on to there? They were there as I remember. Did your father visit with them and talk to these people? 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 Q 7 8 9 A 10 Q 11 12 A 13 Q 14 15 16 A 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 Q 32 33 A 34 Q 35 36 A 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q 54 Yes. Okay. And did they get along well? Yes. Okay. They have respect for my father. Okay. When they lived there did they restrict, or by being there, did they restrict your father's trapping or what he was doing on the territory? No. Okay. Can you tell me, did you visit them with your father? Yes. Okay. Can you tell me how your father established what his relationship was with them regarding trapping? Well, they probably know ahead of time that every time my father going to set traps in the springtime is by the river, and all those farmers were right by the river where the beavers are. And my father goes there and he tells the people that "I'm going to set traps. You better tie up your dogs, whatever, your animals because I'm going to set traps. I don't want to catch them." And they will do what my father tells them. Even I used to go with him, he's going to a house and have coffee and talk with him for quite a while, and then he set traps in front of their farms. There was no problem. Nobody said a word. And when he's finished he take his trap out and he tells them "I'm through now.", and they agree what he says and he's agree with them too. Okay. And you were present when he had these discussions with him? Yes, lots of times. And did they, these farmers, did they ever hunt on the territory to your knowledge? Not very much. Like in the -- around 1930's, the hard times, I remember they used to come on saddle horse and ask my dad if they could get moose or deer, whatever they can find, and they ask him for permission and he told them where, which one to go to, where to get them at. And what he asked them is -- my father believed that he doesn't waste anything and he knows that they can use the skin, so he asked them if he could have the skin if they do kill something. And they do. If they kill moose or deer they bring the hide for my father. And what did your father or mother do with the hides? 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 6 A 7 Q 8 9 A 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 Q 17 18 19 A 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 Q 29 A 30 Q 31 32 A 33 34 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 42 MR. GRA1 43 44 45 46 47 55 She tans them. Your mother did? Yes. Okay. And you were present when these kinds of discussions occurred when they came in to your father? Yes. Do you remember their wives, the white women, what they did at the time of the depression? Did they -- Yes. There too, you know, my mother used to catch -- she has a net and she sets net in the river and she'll get all kinds of small fish like Dolly Varden, white fish, and they know that my mother always have them, so they'll bring something to trade with her, even their clothes, or whatever they -- they have extra they'll trade with my mother for that. Was the -- you said your father didn't like to waste the animals. Can you tell me more about that? Why didn't he want to waste the skins? Well, the skin is more important for Indian people those days because the skin was in use all the time. They use it as moccasins and they use it at feasts. Moccasins was always used in the territory when they wear snow shoes in the wintertime. They can't use rubber boots, they have to use moccasin, so any animal that they get the skin was saved. It was more important to them to save it and prepare it right away. And is it still -- the skin still used today? They still use them today. Okay. Do you remember the kinds of animals that your father trapped for on the territory? Oh, there's lots. Well, the higher up in the mountain was marten, fisher, coyote, wolves, wolverine, mink, lynx, weasel, even squirrels, muskrat, beaver. Fox? Fox. Yes. Okay. And he sold the furs? Yes. And he used the money at feasts? Yes. Half of it goes to feast, half of it we live on it. : Okay. Maybe we can adjourn now until tomorrow morning. 56 1 2 3 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO NOVEMBER 24th, 1987) 4 5 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 6 a true and accurate transcript of the 7 proceedings transcribed to the best 8 of my skill and ability. 9 10 11 Tanita S. French 12 Official Reporter 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 57 1 2 November 24th, 1987 3 Smithers, B.C. 4 5 LUCY BAZIL, Witness, Previously sworn; 6 GEORGE HOLLAND, Interpreter, Previously sworn; 7 8 MR. GRANT: Okay. This is the second day commission evidence of 9 Lucy Bazil, Tuesday, November 24th, 1987. The same 10 parties as were here yesterday are here today, that 11 is, the same lawyers, Mr. Holland is the interpreter, 12 same court reporter, and Mr. Mitchell. 13 For the record, before we proceed I've had a 14 discussion this morning with counsel for the province 15 and counsel for Canada and proposed, which they did 16 not disagree with, that the exhibits that were marked 17 as Exhibit A and B yesterday should be marked by 18 numerical order so there's consistency in sequencing. 19 Therefore Exhibit A, which was the genealogy of 20 Madeek, is now Exhibit 2 for identification, and 21 Exhibit B is now, which was the affidavit of Lucy 22 Bazil with respect to territory, is now Exhibit 4 for 23 identification. And it is understood by the -- by 24 this, that the objections indicated yesterday on the 25 record by Mr. MacKenzie are -- still stand, but the 26 numbering is in order for us to be able to not get -- 27 have a confusion of exhibits. 28 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. I agree that it's useful not to have a 29 confusion of exhibits and I agree also that Exhibit A, 30 which is the Madeek genealogy, is marked in this 31 commission only for identification purposes. It has 32 not been proved by the witness and we went through 33 that yesterday. And Exhibit 4 for identification is 34 Lucy Bazil's affidavit and again we have fundamental 35 objections to that affidavit being proven and marked 36 as a proper exhibit and that will have to be resolved 37 by the parties or by a ruling of the Chief Justice. 38 39 (EXHIBIT 2 FOR IDENTIFICATION: Madeek genealogy 40 previously marked as Exhibit A for identification) 41 42 (EXHIBIT 4 FOR IDENTIFICATION: Lucy Bazil's affidavit, 43 previously marked as Exhibit B for identification.) 44 45 MR. GRANT: Okay. Just the one point is is that I do not 46 concede that Exhibit 2, the Madeek genealogy, has not 47 been proven by the witness. I do concede that it was 1 not disclosed -- was not delivered to you until -- in 2 fact you didn't receive it until November 23rd. 3 Although it was couriered to you on November 18th the 4 day after it was produced, for some reason it wasn't 5 delivered. I take the position that this witness 6 through her evidence has proven the names and the 7 people of that house, but in any event that will be 8 dealt with at the time -- at some future time when the 9 admissibility of that document is challenged. 10 MR. MACKENZIE: Okay. Well — 11 MR. GRANT: And I've also indicated that there's other witnesses 12 who will be able to be cross-examined as well on that 13 genealogy. 14 MR. MACKENZIE: Okay. I understand your position. I'll just 15 reiterate our strong concern. Without criticising 16 your production process, our strong concern that that 17 not having been given to us within the time required 18 we had -- we were not able to prepare for it for 19 cross-examination and it would not be fair equitable 20 to have it proved as a normal exhibit in this 21 commission without us having an opportunity to 22 cross-examine fully on it. 2 3 MR. GRANT: 24 Q I put before you Mrs. Bazil the — Exhibit 4, the 25 affidavit, and I have opened it to paragraph 9. In 26 that paragraph you swear that, and I quote: 27 28 "My father told me that throughout that 2 9 time" 30 31 And this refers to the preceding paragraph, which 32 says -- and I maybe should start with paragraph 8 33 where you swear to the fact that: 34 35 "the boundary of the Ts'un c'os 'aay 36 territory which we reviewed yesterday and is in 37 the affidavit described above has remained the 38 same throughout my lifetime." 39 40 Is that true? 41 A Yes. 42 Q And that your father told you that it had "...remained 43 the same since long before the arrival of the European 44 people here."; is that true? 45 A Yes. 46 Q You then say that your "...father told me that 47 throughout that time", referring to the time since 59 1 before the Europeans came, "the members of the House 2 of Madeek had owned, harvested and looked after the 3 Ts'un c'os 'aay territory from generation to 4 generation."? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Now, your father did tell you that? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Is there a Wet'suwet'en word or phrase for ownership 9 of territory, for ownership? 10 A Yes. 11 Q What is it? 12 A Only one person own it. The caretaker was my father 13 at the time. 14 Q Yes? 15 A But it's owned by the whole house of the Madeek's 16 tribe. 17 MR. GRANT: Okay. So when you say the members of the House of 18 Madeek — 19 MR. MACKENZIE: Excuse me, Mr. Grant, pardon me for interrupting, 20 but I think you recall that we've objected to this 21 information being in the affidavit and because it -- 22 in our view it goes outside the Chief Justice's order 23 and I have not objected to you calling the evidence 24 from the witness apart from the affidavit, but since 25 it's territorial evidence I would ask that you not 26 lead her, not lead the witness when you're calling the 27 evidence about the Madeek territory from this witness. 28 MR. GRANT: I'm sorry, are you -- I'm -- I understand your 29 concern, but I'm not sure what you mean mean by what 30 you're saying I was leading with. 31 MR. MACKENZIE: You read out the first sentence of paragraph 9. 32 MR. GRANT: I see. You're saying by reading that out that I'm 33 leading? 34 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 35 MR. GRANT: Miss Koenigsberg, do you want to say something to -- 36 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Yes. 37 MR. GRANT: You may as well jump in there. 38 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Well, the concern isn't — in my view my only 39 concern isn't that you read out the sentence, which I 40 think has other difficulties than leading, but that 41 then you said "Your father did say that to you?", and 42 that in my view would be in the form of a 43 cross-examination question and it certainly cements 44 the leading aspect. 4 5 MR. GRANT: 46 Q Okay. I missed out the second point. I concede that 47 that's leading. I don't think reading out a sentence 60 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 MR. 14 MR. 15 MR. 16 MR. 17 MR. 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 MR. 42 43 44 45 4 6 MR. 4 7 MR. A Q A Q A GRANT: MITCHELL GRANT: MITCHELL GRANT: Q that's in a sworn affidavit is leading, but I agree with you. Before the interjections, I asked you what -- if there is a Wet'suwet'en term which means -- when you say the members of the House of Madeek own a territory, is there a Wet'suwet'en term for owning a territory? You mean the language? In the Wet'suwet'en language, yes? Yes. What is it? Yuntah 'Oltsen. Can you put a number to that word for us? Fifty-five. It will be 55. Uh-huh. A Q A Q A Q A Q A A Q A Q A GRANT Okay. Now, you also said that your father was the caretaker of the territory? That's what it's -- that what it is. It's whoever's got the name comes first. He's the caretaker, then he lives there. I see. And it belongs to all the whole house that can use the place. Uh-huh. The territory, not only my father. Okay. And this was the case when your father was on the territory? Yes. What about after your father's death? Well, that's when it was take over by his nephew. The one he train was Peter Alfred. And who owned the territory in the Wet'suwet'en view after your father died? Madeek's House. House? It was still Madeek's Yes. And what about today? Still the same. : Okay. In your affidavit you indicate that your father told you that people harvested, people of the House of Madeek harvested on the territory. Can you tell us in more detail what your father told you about that? MACKENZIE: I object to that question. GRANT: Because of reference to the paragraph? 61 1 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 2 MR. GRANT: 3 Q Maybe I should rephrase it to avoid future problems. 4 Did your father tell you that? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Okay. What did he tell you about harvesting? 7 A Well, like he's the caretaker there and he looks after 8 the whole territory and he's using the territory and 9 what he gets out of that he shares with the -- with 10 the Madeek's House, the elders. 11 Q Okay. Did your father tell you that people when he 12 was young harvested on the territory? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And who would that have been? 15 A You mean before him? 16 Q Yes. 17 A That's Azak. 18 Q Okay. 19 A Azak Coo. 20 Q Azak Coo who you referred to yesterday? 21 A Yes, because he's his uncle. Yes. 22 Q You describe in your evidence that your father was a 23 caretaker. In other evidence of Wet'suwet'en 24 witnesses the term Neg'edeld'es has been used? 25 A Yes. 26 Q When you talk about your father as a caretaker, is it 27 Neg'edeld'es that you are referring to? 28 A No, not him. 2 9 Q And why is that? 30 A Because he looks after the territory. 31 Q Okay. And that is the territory of his own house? 32 A Yes. 33 Q Can you give some example of how your father looked 34 after the territory for the members of the House of 35 Madeek? 36 A Well, he lived there. He build a house twice there, 37 and he live there about -- I'll say about ten months 38 out of the year between Houston and there. He had a 39 house in Houston too and between there, but 40 wintertime -- mostly wintertime, he lives in Ts'un 41 c'os 'aay using the territory. 42 Q And your father was taught about this territory by 43 Azak Coo? 44 A Yes. 45 Q And of course Asak Coo is now dead? 46 A Yes. 47 Q Have you heard the Ts'un c'os 'aay territory described 62 1 in any feasts? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Can you give us an example of some feasts where it was 4 described? 5 A One that I remember was my -- when my father's death 6 after he died they had a feast and that's when was -- 7 they didn't do anything about it, but they mention who 8 was going to be the next person to take his place was 9 Peter Alfred. 10 Q Uh-huh. And did they refer to the Ts'un c'os 'aay 11 territory then? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And was it described? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. And where was that feast held? 16 A In Moricetown. 17 Q Okay. I believe you said that was around 1941 or 18 1942? 19 A Somewhere there. Yes. 20 Q Peter Alfred died recently; is that right? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Were you at his feast? 23 A No. 24 Q Okay. Was, as a member -- as a person whose father 25 was in the House of Madeek, were you told about that 26 feast? 27 A Yes. 28 MR. GRANT: Okay. Do you know if that — 29 MR. MACKENZIE: What's the basis of that? 30 MR. GRANT: If that territory was described at that feast? 31 THE WITNESS: Yes. 32 MR. MACKENZIE: What's the source of that information, please? 33 MR. GRANT: 34 Q Who told you? 35 A By his wife. 36 Q That's Mrs. Madeline Alfred? 37 A Yes. 38 MR. MACKENZIE: Is Madeline Alfred still alive? 39 THE WITNESS: Yes. 40 MR. MACKENZIE: I'm sorry, Mr. Grant, I didn't ask the question 41 to your witness. I directed the question to you. 42 MR. GRANT: Madeline Alfred is still alive and she's going to be 43 a witness. 44 MR. MACKENZIE: Good. I think you responded to the question 45 behind my question and I thank you. The point is as 46 you'll recall, the Chief Justice has said that 47 information from living persons given to the witness 63 1 2 3 4 MR. GRANT 5 Q 6 7 8 9 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 15 A 16 Q 17 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 25 26 A 27 Q 28 29 30 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 36 A 37 3 8 MR. GRANT 3 9 MR. macke: 40 41 42 4 3 MR. GRANT 44 Q 45 46 47 cannot be adduced unless that other third person is going to be called at trial or an affidavit produced, and I think you've responded to that. That person is going to be a witness so you're going to have an opportunity to examine that person. Do you know who's going to succeed or who has succeeded or is going to succeed Peter Alfred as Kanoots? Yes. Who's that? Freddie Joseph. Were you involved in that decision of the selection of the successor? No. Were you informed -- you were informed of that decision? Yes. And by who? By Madeline. That's Peter's wife? Yes. Okay. So just note here that if Mr. Mackenzie or Miss Koenigsberg asks a question while I'm questioning you, you don't have to answer their question? I'm sorry. No, that's okay. Is this Ts'un c'os 'aay territory or is the -- is the -- do the other Wet'suwet'en chiefs recognize Madeek's house as being the owners of this territory? Yes. And how do they show that recognition? Well, they -- they talk about it in the feast house. And they agree with what is said about it belonging to Madeek? Yes. It's always discussed in the feast house before it's finished. : Okay. JZIE: Now, that was a leading question I think you'll agree and we didn't object, but I think we're all paying very close attention now with respect, Mr. Grant. I'd like to return to some of the things that your father did on the territory and yesterday you were describing him -- the furs that he got from the territory and what he did with them. Did your father 64 1 fish on any locations in the Ts'un c'os 'aay 2 territory? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Where did he fish? 5 A At K'en kia ben. 6 MR. GRANT: Just a moment. What is it? 7 MR. MITCHELL: Thirty-three. 8 MR. GRANT: 9 Q That is a lake on the territory; is that right? 10 A Yes. 11 Q That's also, although spelled differently, is the 12 second name under the paragraph 7 under "Lakes". 13 Okay. Where else did he trap -- or fish? 14 A At the falls. It's Neen lii. 15 Q Neen lii? 16 A And then down the Neen Lii kwe. 17 Q Thirty-eight and 52. And what kinds of fish would 18 he -- what would he fish for at K'en kia ben? 19 A Trout. 20 Q Okay. Anything else? 21 A No. 22 Q What about at Neen lii? 23 A Neen lii is all kinds. We even get steel head from 24 there. 25 Q Okay. What time of year would he go to K'en kia ben 26 to fish? 27 A Oh, any time of the year. 2 8 Q And he would fish in the winter months? 29 A Yes, through the ice. 30 Q How would he fish through the ice? What would he use? 31 A They chop the ice and they put bait on the hook and 32 they put it down the hole. 33 Q Okay. 34 A And leave it for a few hours and then they picked it 35 up. 36 Q Okay. 37 A Summertime they use net. 38 Q Okay. Was there any place where you fished or your 39 father fished for steel head in the territory? 40 A Yes, at the river Neen Lii kwe. 41 Q Neen Lii kwe? 42 A Neen Lii. That's where he mostly get it from. 43 Q Yes. And what time of year would he fish for steel 44 head? 45 A In the fall. 46 Q Okay. 47 A Even early in spring. 65 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 5 6 A 7 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 MR. GRANT 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2 6 MR. GRANT 27 Q 28 A 29 30 Q 31 32 A 33 34 35 36 Q 37 A 38 Q 39 40 41 42 A 43 Q 44 45 A 46 Q 47 A Before and after the ice? Okay Yes. Okay. I'm showing yo front of something. recognize that photog Yes. That's my broth u a photograph of two men in I don't want to lead. Do you raph where it was taken? er Peter Alfred and it's at the falls. That's Neen lii. That's Neen lii? Yeah. Okay. Can you just left on this side? That's Peter Alfred And it's your brother Yes. And you've been to th I went with my father : Okay. Okay. I'd number 5 please, and 62, Tab 8. It contai course that original a copy of that photog - okay. Which of them is on the n the left. Peter Jim? at place yourself? like that to be marked as Exhibit for the record this is Exhibit ns the same photograph, but of is in the court files so this is raph. (EXHIBIT 5: previously) Photograph marked as Exhibit 62, Tab Do you know when that picture was taken? The last trip my brother went with Peter. That's what he told me, but I don't know what year it was taken. Okay. Is Neen lii an important place in the Ts'un c'os 'aay territory? Yes, because that's the territorial line. That's where they use for -- that's what they use for the line, like that's how far my father goes. He doesn't go any further than that. So that falls is a boundary? Yes. Now, after your father died you indicated that Peter Alfred went on the territory and I believe you indicated yesterday George Naziel went on the territory with him? Yes. And this photograph indicates at least on this occasion your own brother went on the territory? Yes. With Peter Alfred? Yes. 66 1 Q Now, your brother is a member of the House of Wah tah 2 kwets? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Why would he go onto this territory? 5 A Well, he goes there as Neg'edeld'es. 6 Q Because he's the son -- 7 A Yes. 8 Q -- of a member of the house? 9 A Yes. 10 MR. MACKENZIE: Do you have the number? 11 MR. GRANT: Did you get the number for Neg'edeld'es? 12 MR. MITCHELL: Thirty-seven. 13 MR. GRANT: 14 Q Did Peter Alfred or George Naziel report to you on the 15 condition of the territory after they went back on it? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Can you tell us what they -- and they are both 18 deceased? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Can you tell us what they told you about the territory 21 when they returned to it? 22 A Well, they always said that "The place that you raised 23 we went back. Every time we went back there we can't 24 even get off the highway. There's 'No Trespassing' 25 sign all over and we can't even get no access to get 26 off the highway, no place to set traps for beaver." 27 They having hard time and they upset about it. And 28 they ask me to speak on it if I go to any conventions 29 and speak about it and I always did. 30 Q Did you travel to this territory with Peter Alfred 31 and/or your brother Peter Jim? 32 A Once I did with my brother. 33 Q Okay. And when was that? 34 A About ten years ago. 35 Q Can you tell us what happened when you went to the 36 territory? 37 A Well, it was Sunday. My brother and us, my husband 38 and me, and my brother's daughter was with us and my 39 daughter and we were just showing them where the house 40 used to be. There were some logs laying there and 41 bulldozed over and the barn was still sitting. The 42 roof was all caved in, but the logs were still there. 43 We were walking around telling our children where we 44 grew up at and then the tractor came with a guy with 45 two dogs and we got scared of those dogs. We did went 46 through the fence. There was a fence across there and 47 the guy came and he asked what we're doing, we're 67 1 setting traps, and I'm the one that spoke up. I told 2 him, I said "We just visiting this place here. This 3 is where we grew up, my brother and I." And he 4 changed his tune right now when I told him that, and 5 then he said "It's nice..." -- 6 MR. MACKENZIE: Excuse me, you're not going to give evidence of 7 what that gentlemen said, are you? 8 MR. GRANT: It's not for the truth of the facts. It's for the 9 fact that he said it. 10 MR. MACKENZIE: Okay. 11 MR. GRANT: 12 Q Go ahead, Mrs. Bazil. 13 A And he changed the tune. He looked pretty mad when he 14 first saw us. But when I told him we was just showing 15 our children where we grew up at, was showing them 16 where the house used to be, and he changed the tune. 17 And he says "Well, you went through my fence, but", he 18 said "don't do it again.", he said, "But it's nice to 19 come back to your old home town. I just came back 20 from the states. I visit my home town. It's nice to 21 get to see your home town where you grew up at." 22 That's the answer he gave me. Then I said "We're 23 leaving right away. We're just here for a few 24 minutes." And then he left right away. He didn't say 25 any more. 2 6 Q Did you know who that man was? 27 A No. He was young fella, blond. And his house was not 28 far from where our house was -- used to be. 29 Q I'm showing you Exhibit 1, the photograph. Is that 30 where that event occurred? 31 A Yes. Right where the house was. That's where we were 32 standing when he came. 33 Q Okay. But this happened after that photograph because 34 the house wasn't standing anymore; is that right? 35 A No. No. 36 Q Okay. When you went up there on that occasion did you 37 see "No Trespassing" signs on your father's territory? 38 A Yes. 39 Q And what was it like driving up there in terms of 40 fencing or anything like that? 41 A Yeah, there was fencing all over. People living all 42 over the place. 43 Q I believe, if I recall rightly, that you said where 44 the "X" is on Exhibit 1 was where your father 45 travelled around Taan deet which was one of his 46 cabins; is that right? 47 A Yes. 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 5 A 6 Q 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 17 18 19 20 A 21 Q 22 23 A 24 Q 25 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 Q 30 31 32 A 33 Q 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 39 A 40 Q 41 A 42 Q 43 44 45 A 46 Q 47 Now, did you ever go to Taan deet with your father? Once or twice. Yes. Was Taan deet -- is it inside his territory or is it on the boundary? It's the boundary. They use that lake as a boundary. Okay. And the house, the cabin was on this side of the lake. Okay. Yes. Do you know who -- did your father tell you whose territory was on the other side of the lake? Alfred Namox. And do you know what chief's name he held? Namox. In the description of the boundary in your affidavit, paragraph 4, 5 1 guess, you refer to -- you may have to help me, Mr. Holland -- Lt'sinii yes, which is an unnamed ridge on government maps. It's about half-way down that description. Lt'sinii yes, is that -- Yes. Did your father -- was any part of that ridge in your father's territory? Yes. Okay. And was all of it in your father's territory or was part of it somebody else's? Well, he goes over the edge there. Yes. On the other side. He goes over that. When you travelled to the cabins with your father at Taaniits c'ek'een s'aay did you -- this is the place you described as the beaver lodge? Taaniits c'ek'een s'aay. Taaniits c'ek'een s'aay? Yes. Did you -- how did you travel there? Walking. And how long did it take you to get from there from your -- About half a day. That was from your house at -- Yes. -- Ts'un c'os 'aay? Now, you told us that Azak Coo had this branch house that you were shown and it was on the territory? Yes. And can you describe where it was in relation to the bridges that crossed the creek? 69 1 A There's -- about a couple miles below towards Houston 2 there's a bridge and there's a big hill beside it and 3 below that hill there's a bridge there across the Buck 4 River and then there's a field, big field. They call 5 Taa dil k'un'. 6 Q Okay. Just a moment. Do you have that? We have to 7 try to have the transcript correct. 8 A That's the one I forgot to name the last time. 9 Q Do you want to give a spelling for that Mr. Mitchell? 10 Is it on the affidavit? 11 A Taa dil k'un'. 12 MR. MITCHELL: Fifty-six. 13 MR. MACKENZIE: Can I have the spelling for that? 14 MR. MITCHELL T-a-a d-i-1 k-'-u-n-'. 15 MR. GRANT: 16 Q I'm sorry, you were saying that there was a field 17 called Taa dil k'un'? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Go on. 20 A And then at the end of that field there's a big bush 21 there, big trees. About half a mile is all big trees 22 along that area inside where the big timber. This is 23 where that place was located at 'AI ben yex. They 24 build that because they protect from the wind. They 25 build it in the big timber. 26 Q Can you say that name again? 27 A 'AI ben yex. It means branch building. 28 MR. MITCHELL: 'AI ben yex? 29 THE WITNESS: 'AI ben yex. 30 MR. MITCHELL: Fifty-seven. 31 MR. GRANT: 32 Q You've indicated who was the successor to Peter 33 Alfred. Do you know who will be the successor or who 34 is the designated person to succeed George Naziel? 35 A I guess I'll need interpreter for that. Oh, that I 36 heard that in the feast house supposed to be Russel 37 Tiljoe. 38 Q What would happen if there was no boys, no males to 39 take over the chief's position? 40 A Yes, then it's a woman in line, a niece will be 41 chosen. 42 Q You indicated yesterday that you knew of two families 43 that were on the territory when you were growing up, 44 two white families I should say, the Lapelles and the 45 Hayes. Did your father tell you when those people 46 came on to the territory? 47 A He said something about when the -- after the first 1 2 Q 3 4 A 5 6 Q 7 A 8 Q 9 10 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 26 Q 27 A 28 29 Q 30 A 31 32 33 Q 34 35 A 36 Q 37 A 38 39 40 Q 41 42 A 43 44 45 Q 46 47 70 world war. Do you know if these people -- did he tell you where they came from or why they were moving there? Well, no. There's only one Hayes that I remember. He was a German. And Lapelle, do you remember what they were -- No. -- where they were from? Did your father ever talk to you about a reserve, an Indian reserve on the Ts'un c'os 'aay territory? Yes. Can you tell us what he told you about that? He told me the same time as he said that when they made the -- they made a trap line, the game warden made a trap line at the same time as the white settlers were getting in, and then where Ts'un c'os 'aay was they made a line for him and they showed him how big and it's going to be his reserve and he showed us the post was there, both side of the Ts'un c'os 'aay on the highway. Did you see that post? Yes. What kind of a post was it? It was a wooden post. It was about -- I'll say about six feet long. Was it painted or marked in any way? No, it was just plain, but it was just a little stain on it, but no writing or anything. And who did he say put in that post? He didn't tell me exactly who did it, but he said at the same time that they made that trap line smaller that the territory -- it was done at the same time. Did Peter Alfred talk to you before his death about this post? Yes. What did he tell you? He told me he found it was laying on the ground, but he put it underneath the tree, the same place where it was. That's the last he seen it. Was that before or after -- was that before or after your house was down that he did that? About that time when the house was still standing when the last time he -- him and Madeline camped there on the highway. Did Peter Alfred tell you anything about how your house -- what happened to your father's house? Did he see what happened? 1 A 2 3 4 5 6 Q 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 26 Q 27 28 A 29 Q 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 Q 34 35 A 36 Q 37 A 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 42 43 A 44 Q 45 46 A 47 71 Yes. He told me they were camping on the highway there and the house was torn down and there was a guy there pulling the nails out of the building and he went after him and this guy got mad and they had a fight, tongue fight over it. Like an argument you mean? Yes. Do you know if Madeline was there then? Madeline was there at the time, but she left away. She got scared and she walked away. Was this an Indian person or a white man that was -- White man. Okay. Do you know who he was? No. Does Madeline know who he was? No. To your knowledge -- They know that the man was living there. It was somebody living -- Yeah. -- where your house was? Yeah -- no, not exactly where the house was. But in that area? It was fenced in and the house was across from where our house was. Oh, I see. So there was -- was there fence around where your house was? Yes. And then there was another house? Another house. They build a new house. Which was in the same fenced area? Yeah. What kind of food did you live on when you were growing up on the Ts'un c'os 'aay territory? Well, mostly came from the territory. And what type of food was it? Well, fish, meat of different kinds. Like game meat? Yes. Like meat that your father hunted. Was there ever a time when there was a shortage of meat while you were growing up there? Yes. Do you recall about how old you were when that happened and what happened? I remember it clearly because it was around the 30's. Everybody was having hard time and my father goes out 1 2 3 4 5 Q 6 7 A 8 9 10 Q 11 12 A 13 Q 14 15 A 16 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 21 22 23 A 24 Q 25 26 A 27 Q 28 29 A 30 Q 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 36 A 37 Q 38 39 A 40 Q 41 A 42 Q 43 44 A 45 Q 46 A 47 Q 72 hunting every day, come home with nothing. My mother used to set snares for rabbits. She might bring one home a day and that's what we lived on. It wasn't too long it was picked up again. Was there -- did your father tell you why he thought this was happening or what had happened? No, because they -- they all said it was depression and they figure game was the same thing, but they can't get it. They don't see it. Were there more hunters on your father's territory then? No, not very many. Was there many white people living there on your father's territory at that time? Well, the two -- two families that I described, just them. Just those two families? Yes. I'll refer you to Exhibit 1 and I'll ask Mr. Holland, who's nearer to you than I am, to point out to you these names. On that first page is Pat Namox. You know Pat Namox? Yes. Does Pat Namox still -- does he go out on any territories? He goes out to McDonnell Lake. On that same page is John Namox. Does he still go out on territories? He used to. Not now. Do you know why he doesn't now? He's too old. Okay. But Pat still does now? Yes. Now, you referred to your brother Peter Jim. Does he still go out on territories? Yes. Do you know if he's trapped out on any territories recently? Up at Quick. Yes. And what does he trap for? Beaver. And your first husband Frank Bazil, when he was alive did he go out on territories? Yes. What territories did he go out on? My uncle's. When you say your uncle's, who are you referring to? 73 problems 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 MR. 18 MR. 19 MR. 2 0 MR. 21 MR. 22 MR. 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 MR. 35 36 37 38 3 9 MR. 4 0 MR. 41 MR. 42 43 44 4 5 MR. 4 6 MR. 47 A Jack Joseph. Q So that was Wah tah kwets' territories? A Yes. Q Was that -- why could he go out on Wah tah kwets' territory? A He goes there for me. Q Okay. Do other Wet'suwet'en still go out and use the territories today? A Yes. Q Okay. Is there any difficulty to your knowledge with people using the territory? Is there any about it now? A Yes. Q What are those problems? A Well, there's no timber where they go. No animals because there's no timber. MACKENZIE: Excuse me, I'm sorry, Mr. Grant. GRANT: You want to know the source of this information? MACKENZIE: Yes. GRANT: I'm going to get to that. MACKENZIE: Thank you. GRANT: Q And can you tell us who -- who has described those problems to you? A Well, my brother for one. Q Peter Jim? A Yes. Q Did George Naziel talk to you about that? A Yes. Q Okay. Was there anyone else? A And so would Pat Namox. Q Did Peter Alfred talk to you about this? A Yes. MACKENZIE: Okay. Mr. Grant, I have no objection to information from Peter Alfred, but information from Peter Jim or Pat Namox, who are still living, can only be given with your undertaking that they are going to be called or an affidavit. GRANT: If that evidence is to be admissible, that's true. MACKENZIE: Yes. GRANT: I understand that. If they're not called, they haven't challenged the admissibility of the evidence. She's described that George Naziel and Peter Alfred, both of them deceased, talked to her. MACKENZIE: Yes. GRANT: Q Where did George Naziel and Peter Alfred talk to you 1 2 A 3 Q 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 9 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 17 A 18 19 Q 20 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 Q 25 26 A 27 Q 28 29 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 34 35 36 37 Q 38 39 A 40 Q 41 A 42 43 44 45 46 47 74 about this problem? Moricetown. And what area were they referred referring to? It was Buck Flat. Ts'un c'os 'aay? Yes. You referred to the fact that Alfred Namox held the name Namox. Do you remember him when you were younger? Yes. Did he stay with you at Ts'un c'os 'aay? Yes. And why would he stay with you there? They stay overnight on the way up to their territory. Okay. Did he talk to you about his territory when he stayed with you? They talk about it, my father and him, and we listened. And did -- did Namox talk about whether there were white people on his territory at that time? There was a bachelor on his area he talked about. And do you know what his name was? John Erickson. Other than that person, did he talk about any other white people on his territory? No. Now, did your father and your grandmother Theresa, Deliiz, did they talk to you about taking care of the animals or protecting their resources at all? Yes. Can you tell us what they told you about that? Well, they very particular about when they kill something. The first kill they share and they prepare it. Whatever's left they prepare to be used up, fish or meat, whatever, make sure it's all used up before they go out and get another one. And what about the trees? Did your father talk to you about the trees on the territory? Yes. What did he tell you about that? The trees, he always said, if he's going to cut wood he cut the dead trees, and the tree that's there they don't want to touch it. It stay for a reason. Animal needs it. They live in it and they eat it, so that's why they don't cut down trees if they don't have to, unless they going to use it for something, for building they will. 1 Q 2 A 3 4 Q 5 A 6 7 8 9 Q 10 11 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q 26 27 A 28 29 30 31 32 Q 33 34 A 35 Q 36 37 38 39 A 40 Q 41 A 42 Q 43 44 45 A 46 47 75 Did your father use trees from the territory? Yes, for his house. What he needed that's all he takes. And where did he get those trees from for his house? Around -- around Ts'un c'os 'aay, close by where he halls it in by the horse, and he doesn't cut -- he doesn't cut two trees in one area. He'll cut one tree and then quite a ways away he'll cut another one. Do you talk -- I'm sorry. When Peter Alfred and George Naziel were Kanoots and Madeek respectively, did they talk to you about the territory -- Yes. -- at Ts'un c'os 'aay? Yes. Was George concerned about the territory? Yes. What did he tell you about it? Well, he complain they can't get off the road to do hunting or setting traps or go to their trap lines where -- the wintertime to trap. They can't get off the highway, off -- "No Trespassing" signs. They can't do too much on account of that to the territory and they pretty upset, but there's nothing they can do. That's what they tell me. And did -- is there anything that you did in regard to that? Well, the reason they ask me, "If you go to any conventions" -- I used to go to conventions for this non-status around Vancouver or wherever I go, they told me to talk about something like that to be recognized. And did you speak about the destruction of your territory? Yes. Yes. Quite a few times I did. And were you involved in the decision -- were you present when the Wet'suwet'en chiefs made the decision to take this -- the province to court in this court case? Yes. Once I was there. And did you agree with that decision? Yes. And why did you -- why did you think -- why did you want the Wet'suwet'en chiefs to take the government to court? Well, I feel the way we lived before I kinda miss the life that I had and disappeared, and the way I feel we should have it the way we had it before. There was no 76 MR. 9 10 MR. 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 MR. 35 36 37 38 39 THE 4 0 MR. 41 42 THE 43 44 4 5 MR. 4 6 THE 4 7 MR. problems. Everybody was happy. But today is not, and I still say those days were the best than today. This is why I feel we should do something about it. GRANT: Maybe we'll go off the record for a moment. (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR MORNING RECESS) (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) GRANT: Q Okay. For the record, Miss Shirley Meldrum of my office, a lawyer, is also present this morning and it's reconvening after the morning break on November 24th, 1987, the examination of Lucy Bazil. Mrs. Bazil, have you attended many Wet'suwet'en feasts yourself? A Yes. Q And you described yesterday the feasts of -- well, you briefly referred to the feasts of your father and your husband and your mother. Is it necessary at a feast for the chiefs of other clans to be present? A Yes. Q Can you tell us why that is? A The reason they invite all the other clans, the other houses, to witness what they do in the feast. Q And what happens if a chief who's invited as a guest does not attend the feast? A I need an interpreter for that. Q Go ahead, Mr. Holland. A If a chief is invited and does not attend, then that is when they go through the process of using down and they have a ceremonial and then they bring the chief back in. GRANT: Okay. Mr. Holland, because -- just to avoid any later challenge, Mrs. Bazil said something to you in Wet'suwet'en before you translated the question. Could you just translate what she said to you for the record? INTERPRETER: That was exactly what she — GRANT: Before you asked the question she started to answer? INTERPRETER: Yes. I — I proceeded to ask the question to her and then she realized what -- she couldn't explain it in English -- GRANT: Yes, I understand. INTERPRETER: — what I answered there. GRANT: Do either counsel -- is there any difficulty from 1 2 MS. KOEI 3 MR. GRA1 4 Q 5 6 7 8 9 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 15 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 27 28 A 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 Q 37 A 38 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 A 43 44 45 46 Q 47 A 77 counsel? 5SBERG: Fine. Mrs. Bazil, it's only because it's of importance that the interpreter translate, that's the only reason I asked him that question, so there's no question of what he said. Where would the ceremony with the eagle down take place for a chief who was not invited? They'll go to their house. And who would go? The person that invited. The person that invite. So for example if it was a feast of Wah tah kwets' house and another chief didn't come, it would be Wah tah kwets? Yes. Okay. Would anybody go with Wah tah kwets in that -- Yes. Who else would go to him? Next to him. Other chiefs will go. Including Guhe'? Yes. Have you seen this happen? Once or twice. Yes. And after the eagle down ceremony does the person, that is, the guest, does he come to a feast after that? Well, this happens -- he didn't show up at the feast and never heard a word from him for what reason he didn't show up, so that's when after that this is when it happens. They go to his house the next day or something like that and they do this and then he -- the person that didn't come, and they -- what Georgie explained, they did that to him, and then next feast he comes back, he spends money. When you say "he spends money" what do you mean? He spends money. He -- he -- well, I'll need the interpreter for that too. Okay. Do you want to translate your answer? Uh-huh. Go ahead. When an invited person does not show up, they go through the process, as she had explained, and then when he comes back in he passes out material and money which is -- is returning of the down. And who does he pass it out to? The whole hall. 1 Q 2 3 4 A 5 Q 6 7 A 8 Q 9 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 A 23 Q 24 25 26 27 28 29 A 30 Q 31 A 32 Q 33 34 A 35 Q 36 37 A 38 Q 39 40 41 A 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q 78 Okay. Would this be at a feast where his house was hosting or would it be at a feast where he was a guest? Where he's feast. At his own feast, his house feast. And would it be explained that the eagle down had been used -- Yes. -- at that feast? And is this, what you've described, part of the Wet'suwet'en laws? Yes. And does it still go on today? Yes. Okay. I'd like to ask you in more detail a few questions about the Wet'suwet'en fishery at Moricetown Canyon, and just to reiterate, and I'll go ahead without my friends objecting, yesterday as I recall your evidence it was that you went there in the summer months and you -- your father would fish and you would use your grandfather Johnny Mooseskin who held the name Kweese's smoke house to full dry the fish and you would do this in the summer months? Yes. That's fair. And you described that your grandfather's fishing site was upstream of the present bridge at Moricetown Canyon on the far side of the river, that is, the side of the river the Wet'sen kwe across from the highway and -- but it was below the fish ladders; is that right? Yes. Where the fish ladder's now located? Yes. Now, do you remember seeing your father catching -- gaffing fish there? Yes. And what type of fish would he first catch there when he first started fishing there? Spring salmon. And was that -- did your father ever catch the -- what did your father do with the first spring salmon he would catch? The first fish all was shared, I said that earlier, with meat or fish. My father first catch a big spring salmon, my grandmother gets ahold of it and she cuts it all up. One meal to each house around the village. Everybody gets a slice. And then what's left over that's what we'll eat. You say your grandmother. Which grandmother was this? 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 6 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 19 20 A 21 22 23 Q 24 25 A 26 Q 27 28 29 A 30 31 32 Q 33 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 MR. GRANT 3 8 MR. MITCH 3 9 MR. GRANT 40 Q 41 42 A 43 Q 44 A 45 Q 46 A 47 Q 79 My father's mother. Deliiz? Yes. And was it shared -- when you say it was shared, was it just with the people in Kweese and Wah tah kwets' house? No, the whole village, all different houses. And that's the whole village of Moricetown? Yes. Does this apply if a moose is caught, for the first moose that a young man catches among the Wet'suwet'en? Yes. And what is done with that? They do the same thing. Okay. And have you seen that in your lifetime? Yes. Okay. After your father -- how long a time would your father spend fishing for spring, in other words, was this for a week or for a number of weeks? Maybe a week at the time the fish runs. They don't last too long. The fish runs about a week and then they -- after that it will be sockeye coming in. Okay. And how long would your father spend fishing for sockeye? Maybe a couple of weeks to get enough for the winter. Okay. Do you recall about how much fish your father would -- I mean, when you say "enough for the winter", how much that would be? Well, everything he gets out of that one -- one particular place, spring salmon place called Dee g'iit k'et, belongs to my grandfather Johnny Mooseskin. That name you just gave, that's the name of that fishing site? Yes. Could you just say it again for Mr. Mitchell? Dee g'iit k'et. Dee g'iit k'et. Dee g'iit. : Do you wish to go off the record, Mr. Mitchell? ilLL: Number 60. Do you want the spelling now? Number 60. Okay. And did he fish at the same site for spring salmon and for sockeye? No. Just the spring salmon at that -- that site. Okay. And where did he fish for sockeye? There's other places below. Below? Below the same area, but little bit lower. Okay. But it was still in the canyon? 80 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 MR. GRANT 7 8 9 10 MR. GRANT 11 Q 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 A 19 Q 20 21 A 22 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 Q 30 31 A 32 Q 33 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 A 39 Q 40 41 A 42 Q 43 A 44 Q 45 A 46 Q 47 Yes. Still on the same side of the river? Same side, just a little ways below it. And was there a name for that site? Yeah, Ts' waa ket it's called. Ts' waa ket. : Just go off the record for a moment, please? (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION) Okay. Go ahead. Okay. This is tape number 3, a continuation of the commission evidence of Lucy Bazil, and the witness is still -- you're still under oath in this discovery -- or in this commission. These two fishing sites that you've just described, did they both belong to your grandfather, your father's father? No. The -- the last one I described was Gitdumden. Okay. And who was the head chief in charge of that site? I can't remember which house it was belonged to, but my father was allowed to gaff there. Okay. And your father gaffed for sockeye -- Yes. -- at that second fishing site? Yes. And did other people use that site as well? Yes. Lots of people. Do you recall the names of some of the other chiefs that used that site or people -- I remember that place was used by many other houses. Uh-huh. Was it a very -- is that fishing site still there? Yes. Okay. It was not destroyed by the fish ladders? No. That one is still there. Is it still used today? Yes. Now, did your father catch cohoe or pink salmon at Moricetown? Yes. And what did he do with the cohoe salmon? They do the same thing on the sockeye. They full dried it? Yes. And so you took some -- some cohoe back to your home as well? il 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 Q 7 A 8 Q 9 10 A 11 Q 12 13 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 19 A 20 21 Q 22 23 A 2 4 MR. MIT< 2 5 MR. GRA1 26 Q 27 28 A 29 Q 30 31 A 32 33 34 35 Q 36 37 A 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 A 42 Q 43 44 45 A 46 Q 47 Yes. Yes. What about the pink salmon? The steel head comes very late. Uh-huh. Before we -- before it arrives we leave. Oh, okay. We don't get too much of that. And the pink salmon came at the same time as the steel head? Yes, that's the steel head. Yes. Was there a fish -- a person from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans that lived at Moricetown when you were there? Yes. Do you remember what his name was? I don't remember his name, but he was there. Do you remember how long -- I mean, how long he was there until? About a few years I think. I remember the house above the canyon where he used to live. Can you explain -- is there a Wet'suwet'en word for a fish trap? C'on ts'ee. MITCHELL: Thirty-nine. Thirty-nine. And did the -- did you see fish traps at Moricetown Canyon -- Yes. -- or Con ts'ee? And who ran -- who controlled these fish traps? The site I'm talking about, just above that, my grandfather's site just above it, about ten feet above where the fish ladder is now. That's where one trap was set by Peter Michell. And do you know what house Peter Michell was from and what clan? Tsayu. Lak sa mushu, I'm sorry. Okay. Did he hold a chief's name? Yes. Do you recall what it is right now? That's the one I always forget. Okay. Just a moment. This is -- he's the person who had the hall, the Lak sa mushu hall you described yesterday? Yes, he had that hall. And yesterday you -- you have given me his name before? You've told me his name on an earlier 1 occasion? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Is the name that you gave me and is his name Gus 4 ded'a — Gus ded'a lak'? 5 A Gus ded'a lak', yes. Right. 6 MR. GRANT: Gus ded'a lak' is 23. Lak sa mushu, 22. 7 Was the other one Tsayu? 8 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Con ts'ee? 9 MR. MITCHELL: Forty-three. 10 MR. GRANT: 11 Q Forty-three is Tsayu and 39 is Con ts'ee. 12 Was there any other Con ts'ee besides this one of 13 Peter Michell's? 14 A Yes. There's one on the other side, on the highway 15 side where the fish ladder is going up the falls. 16 There was one there belongs to Wah tah kwets. 17 Q And which -- who was Wah tah kwets then? 18 A Louie Tommy, my uncle. 19 Q Okay. Did you get fish from that fish trap as well? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Did your uncle, Louie Tommy, what was his -- did he 22 live -- what was his concern or did he have any 23 relationship with the fish warden? 24 A No. 25 Q Was there a way that you regulated yourself as to when 26 you fished and when you didn't fish? When I say 27 "you", I mean your father and your uncle Louie Tommy? 28 A Well, towards the end when that fish warden was there 29 there was closing on Sunday and closing on Wednesday. 30 They don't gaff. They don't put trap in. 31 Q And did your uncle and your father agree with that? 32 A No. 33 Q Why not? 34 A Because the fish doesn't run all summer. The fish 35 gets into the canyon just for a short period of time 36 and the smoking time was the same. While the smoking 37 is going and the smoke house is going they like to put 38 fish up every day. There's three layers, the first 39 fresh they put it down in the lower part, and then a 40 couple of days after they move it up to a higher -- 41 where it's going to get fully dry. And if it's close 42 one day the bottom part will be empty and it holds 43 them back and then pretty soon there will be no more 44 fish and they don't get enough for the winter. This 45 is why they were against it. 46 Q And did the people continue to fish all the time even 47 after the fish warden put in these closures on Sunday 1 2 A 3 Q 4 5 A 6 Q 7 A 8 9 Q 10 11 12 13 14 A 15 Q 16 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 22 A 23 Q 24 25 A 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 30 A 31 32 33 34 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 39 A 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 and Wednesday? Well, when it's closed they can't fish. What -- do you recall what the fish warden did to try to stop -- to stop the people from fishing those days? Yes. What did he do? Well, he goes after them. If they do gaff he'd take their permits away. Okay. You've described four fishing sites in the canyon, two where your father gaffed, and the two sites where there was the Con ts'ee. Were any of these sites affected by the fish ladders that were installed? Lots of them. Okay. Were the sites where the fish traps set up, were they affected by that? Yes. Are those sites still there or are they gone now? No, it's not there. Okay. Do you remember when the Fisheries proposed to put fish ladders in at Moricetown? Yes, but I can't remember what year exactly. Okay. Were you there then at that time when they were talking about it? Yes, once, at a big meeting they had. Where was the meeting? Moricetown Hall. Okay. Can you tell us what happened at that meeting you were at? There was Fisheries there and just about the whole village was in the hall, and we were asked to go down to listen, my husband and I, so we went. And that's the only time that I was there to listen to what was going on. Which hall was this at? At Hagwilnegh's Hall. Do you recall what the Fisheries said at that meeting to the people? Some of them. There was lot of promising. I remember one promise was after they blast the canyon they going to put fish ladder up both side, and they promise the people from reserve they were going to get dip net and they were going to put a lot of stuff in the canyon for them to use, like how to wash their fish, and how to smoke -- to smoke them. And if they don't get enough fish they were going to give them a case. A case of canned salmon, they promise, will be given to 84 1 each family to live on the winter. 2 Q Do you know -- the fish ladders were installed in the 3 canyon weren't they? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Did the Wet'suwet'en people at that meeting, did they 6 agree that the ladders should be put in? 7 A Well, everybody was disagree and -- at the time when I 8 was there, but then after I didn't go back I don't 9 know who -- who agreed. I didn't know. 10 Q Okay. You said "everybody was disagree". 11 A Yes. 12 Q You mean they disagreed with the ladders? 13 A Yes. Yes, they were disagree. 14 Q And why did they say they disagreed at that meeting? 15 A Because they liked to do the way they do in the 16 century, the way they dry their fish, they like it 17 that way. They like to keep things the same. 18 Q So at that meeting -- did any of the chiefs consent to 19 the fish ladders at the meeting you were at? 2 0 A No. 21 Q Okay. Do you know if there were meetings after that? 22 A There was more after, but we didn't go. 23 Q When you were younger on, I'm referring now to the 24 Ts'un c'os 'aay territory, Mrs. Bazil, you described 25 how your father cut trees on the territory. Did the 26 white people, the Hayes and the Lapelles, did they cut 27 trees on the territory then? 28 A No, just inside their lines where the -- the property 29 that they leased or bought, I don't know what, but 30 they all had fence around it, the property that they 31 have, and they cut the timber inside their line, not 32 on my father's territory. 33 Q Okay. So when you travelled this territory with your 34 father, was it mainly forest or was it mainly open at 35 that time? 36 A It was all forest then. 37 Q Okay. When you went back there a few years ago was it 3 8 the same? 39 A No. 40 Q What's it like now in comparison? 41 A All bare. 42 MR. GRANT: Okay. 43 MR. MACKENZIE: Mr. Grant, when you said "a few years ago", were 44 you referring to the witness's reference to the visit 45 ten years ago to -- on the Sunday? 4 6 MR. GRANT: 47 Q Well, let me ask you this. Have you been on the 1 2 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 Q 7 A 8 9 10 11 Q 12 A 13 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 25 A 26 Q 27 28 A 2 9 MR. GRANT 30 31 32 33 34 35 3 6 MR. GRANT 37 Q 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 territory since that visit ten years ago that you talked about? We were there after there was a big fire one summer. Uh-huh. There was a big fire there. Is this -- And I wanted to see how far the fire was, so my daughter took me up there. My husband and I, we went through there again, and there was -- part of it was burnt on my father's territory. Okay. Was this the fire known as the Swiss fire? It was a big fire that went through quite a way -- quite a big area. This was a few years ago? Yeah. Okay. That's when the last time I was up there. Okay. Did you travel up there just recently? No, that time that the fire -- after the fire, the s ame s umme r. Okay. You haven't been up there this year? No. Okay. Did -- you say the fire burned some of the trees on your father's territory? Yes. Aside from where the fire burned, is there still forest or is it mostly cut down now? It's all cut down. : Okay. I think this is an appropriate time to take the lunch break. (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCH RECESS) (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) Okay. Well, I think we can go back on the record then. Okay. This is a continuation of the commission evidence of Mrs. Bazil and the witness is still under oath. Mrs. Bazil, you told us I believe this morning you mentioned or yesterday about -- about the game warden or about the trap line. Now, you said something about your father's territory. Can you tell us what happened about the registration of your father's territory as a trap line territory? Do you recall 1 2 A 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q 10 A 11 12 Q 13 A 14 15 16 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 21 22 A 23 24 25 Q 26 27 A 28 Q 29 30 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 35 36 37 Q 38 A 39 Q 40 41 A 42 43 44 45 Q 46 47 A that happening and what your father said about it? Well, that's when I said that he was quite concerned. He was talking about it quite often, that the territory got smaller the way they -- the game warden give him the -- something like a registration or something that where his territory is, where the boundary was some cut off and they made it smaller than it's supposed to be. What did your father say about that? Well, he was upset about it. He says that they should leave it the way it is, and they made it smaller. Did that have any effect on where he trapped? Well, he never -- he -- he stayed on the lines where he had his trap lines, like where he set traps. It didn't affect him up the other way. It's cut off on the Houston side. Okay. That's the one side they cut a piece off. Now, in Exhibit 4 you've referred to the four houses -- campsites. Did it affect any of those campsites where it was cut off? I don't think it did because he still went the same place that he had before. He still went to the same cabins that he had when he set traps. Okay. So did he use the whole territory both before and after this registration? Yes. Now, I'll just show you Exhibit 1. Is there any area there that you can see that was affected to show as an example of -- that was logged -- Yes. -- after your father's time? Well, this -- this is when -- after -- this picture was taken after my father has left there already then. On the other side the river I see it's been cleared up there. I'm going to give you a red pen. It was all heavy timber all along there. Okay. Can you -- can you just point for the record and for the video where this is? This is the area I'm talking about here. It's by the river. It's a little hill there, and this all it's clear. I could see it's cleared up, and it was all big timber like here all along here. When you say "it was all big timber", was that when you were growing up there? Yes. 87 1 MR. GRANT: Okay. Could you just put a circle with a red pen 2 around that area? You can go all the way around. 3 Okay. It's marked with a red circle around it. Can 4 you see that? 5 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 6 MR. GRANT: 7 Q I'll just complete that line if you don't mind. There 8 are some gaps in the line and I'm just completing -- 9 there's some gaps in the line, and Miss Koenigsberg, I 10 was just doing that so you can see where the gaps are. 11 I'd like to refer to the affidavit again. One of 12 the places you described as part of the boundary in 13 your affidavit is called -- and this is the two, four, 14 sixth line down on page 3, the first word, "Tseegis 15 det sel"? 16 A Tseegis det sel? Yes. 17 Q Tseegis det sel. What does that mean? 18 A That means that's when there was all big timber along 19 that top of the hill coming from Houston going up to 20 Buck Flat. There was all big timber along there and 21 then when C.N. went through they start cutting ties, 22 and they cut all the timber down. And after they 23 going through there it was all bare, no timber left. 24 This is what it means. Tseegis det sel, cut all the 25 big trees down. 26 Q Do you know -- when was that that those trees were cut 2 7 down? 28 A It must be when the train C.N. went through. 29 Q This was when the railway was put through that area? 30 A Yes. 31 Q And who called it that? Who gave it that name? 32 A My father -- my father and my mother, they said that 33 they were coming back from Buck Flat. They were 34 coming back to Houston, and the first time they seen 35 it was all bare and my mother's the one that said that 36 "The Europeans, they cut all the trees down. Now, 37 it's bare." 38 MR. MACKENZIE: Just so that my note is correct, Mr. Grant, does 39 the name mean the condition before or after the trees 4 0 were cut down? 41 THE WITNESS: After the trees were — oh, I'm sorry. 42 MR. GRANT: 43 Q Okay. You can go ahead and answer that. 44 A Well, the name after the trees were cut down. I just 45 describe it. My mother said that word, and that's 46 what they name it after that. 47 MR. GRANT: Can you translate that just for the record as well, 1 Mr. Holland? Tseegis det sel. 2 THE INTERPRETER: Tseegis det sel is the timber in that specific 3 area coming down the hill has been cleared off by 4 logging or whatever. 5 MR. GRANT: Okay. That's what that name means? 6 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. It's just that the timber has been cut 7 off. 8 MR. GRANT: 9 Q Okay. Thank you. Who decides who can use the 10 territories such as -- for example, who decides who 11 can use this Ts'un c'os 'aay territory? 12 A In the feast house. 13 Q Okay. That's where it is decided? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And who is the one that will announce that decision? 16 A Well, the first they ask questions the person is 17 taking a name and taking the territory, probably his 18 uncle or somebody older than him, will talk about 19 what's going to happen. And then the people that 20 seated, all the chiefs that seated, they the one 21 that -- each one get up and they discuss that and 22 saying that he's the right person to have that 23 territory, and they all agree, and then that's the -- 24 that's the time the territory is gone to the person 25 that's standing in the middle of the floor and he's 26 responsible. 27 Q Is this at the time of the funeral feast or a 28 headstone feast usually? 29 A Headstone feast it's always done. 30 Q I'd like to ask you about -- about something else and 31 that is trade. Do you recall if your father was 32 involved in trading any of the materials he got on the 33 territory with other people's? 34 A Yes. 35 Q Can you describe that? 36 A Well, if something, a gun or that, they need it and 37 they don't have it, and if another person has two, 38 then they will trade. 39 Q What about furs or meat? 40 A They -- they share the meat. The same thing with 41 their food. If other people has meat and they have no 42 smoked salmon, they will trade their meat with fish or 43 other food. 44 Q And when you returned to Moricetown each year, did 45 your family bring goods back to Moricetown from the 46 territory? 47 A Yes. 1 Q 2 3 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 A 9 Q 10 A 11 12 Q 13 A 14 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 19 A 20 Q 21 22 23 A 24 Q 25 A 26 Q 27 A 28 29 30 Q 31 32 A 33 Q 34 35 A 36 37 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 A 42 43 44 Q 45 46 A 47 Q And what did they do with those -- what kinds of things did they bring back and what did they do with them? Smoked meat, all different kinds. Uh-huh. And that's what they use at the feast. Uh-huh. And some goes to the relatives. Which relatives would they provide things for? The -- the clan from the territory, like older people that lives in reserve. Like your grandmother? Yes. And also they trade seafood with the Gitksan people. That's the Gitksan people from Hazelton and west? Yes. When you say "they trade seafood", do you mean they would get seafood from the Gitksan for -- Yes. -- for meat? Okay. Has your -- I'm sorry, has the Madeek, the Ts'un c'os 'aay territory, been damaged to your knowledge? Well, it's damaged after my father left it. Okay. And how is it damaged? All logged off. Do you know who logged it off? Well, I don't know the contractors who did it, but there's people that lives around there I guess. I don't know exactly the names. Do you know if they were ever stopped by any government officials from logging? No. Okay. Aside from the logging, what else caused damage to the Ts'un c'os 'aay territory? Well, there's a lot of farmers up there now. All the land's been sold. Farmers all the way up just about the whole area. And how does that damage it -- Because -- -- the territory? The people that bought bought land along there they got "No Trespassing" sign and the people own the territory can't get off the highway. When you say the people who "own the territory", who are you referring to? That was Gitdumden. Seventeen. You mean the people -- Gitdumden clan? 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 6 7 A 8 9 10 Q 11 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 22 A 23 Q 24 25 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 Q 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 Q 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 38 39 40 41 Q 42 43 44 45 A 46 Q 47 A 90 Yes. And the Madeek people? Yes. Has there been any other damage to the territory that you -- there's the farming and there's the logging. Is there other damage on the territory? Well, along the rivers and lakes where their -- they do the trapping for beavers, and there's nothing there for the animals to eat, so there's nothing there. So when you say "there's nothing there", you mean the animals are gone? Animals got nothing to eat there to live there for. And why is that? Well, whoever cleaned -- clear lands, they clean everything up. Okay. It's because of the clearing then? Yes. Are most of the farms there along the river? Yes. Is there any other damage along there that you can think of? I guess that's about all I know. Okay. Now, you did describe that your father had these fishing sites at Moricetown. Are those fishing sites damaged at all? Yes. And how are they damaged? By blasting. By blasting? Yes. And do you know who did the blasting? The government did. And what was that blasting for? The fish ladder. And how did that damage your father's fishing sites? Well, they can't -- the -- wherever they set the traps and where they gaff is all blasted off. There's no place to stand to put your gaff in. And the fish they go right in the middle where it's open for them. They go up the fish ladder. So it had -- so what you're saying is it had two effects. It destroyed the gaffing site for where the person could stand, and also it made the fish be able to go up another way where they couldn't be caught? Yes. Is that right? Yes. 91 1 MR. GRANT: Okay. Thank you, Mrs. Bazil. Maybe we'll go off 2 the record for a few moments to switch around and 3 proceed to cross-examination. 4 5 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR AFTERNOON RECESS) 6 7 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) 8 9 MR. GRANT: 10 Q At the break before we switched over for 11 cross-examination I noted one thing I wanted to 12 correct on Exhibit number 2, which is the Madeek 13 genealogy dated November 17th, 1987. 14 Mrs. Bazil, you knew Mrs. Mary Joseph who married 15 Charlie Pete? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And they had a daughter Lillian Pete? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And did she marry Raymond Dennis? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Okay. And their children, their last names were 22 Dennis? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. I would ask -- and which clan did Raymond 25 Dennis belong to? 26 A Laksilyu. 27 MR. GRANT: Okay. I would ask, with the consent of counsel, 28 that that page 3 of Exhibit 2 can be corrected 29 accordingly as it was a transcription error and was 30 not an error from this witness herself. It was in the 31 transcribing. Is that agreed? 32 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Yes, it's agreed by me. 33 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. Yes. 34 MR. GRANT: Okay. I've shown that correction from Ray Holland 35 to Ray Dennis and crossing out Tsayu under Ray Holland 36 and making it Laksilyu, and changing the last names of 37 the three children from Holland to Dennis. And 38 subject to the reservation I asked of counsel at the 39 break, I finish my direct examination. 40 MR. MACKENZIE: That reservation you mentioned, as I understand 41 it, you wish to review a map which was appended to the 42 Madeek interrogatory and you want to reserve your 43 right to discuss that document with the witness, but 44 as I understand it, you won't be raising anything 45 related to that in your redirect unless we refer to it 46 in our cross-examination. 47 MR. GRANT: That's correct. And I — I just want the — the 92 1 agreement I understand is that I can speak to the 2 witness about a document even though she may still be 3 under cross-examination. That's the point. 4 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, it is that document that you referred — 5 MR. GRANT: That document. That's right. If other documents 6 come to my attention that I wish to speak to her 7 about, I will discuss it with counsel. 8 MR. MACKENZIE: Thank you. 9 10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACKENZIE: 11 Q Mrs. Bazil, you're presently living in Terrace? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Okay. And one year ago you married Mr. Verigin? 14 A About a year ago. Year ago next month. 15 Q And do you own your home in Terrace? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Yes. And whose name is that home registered in to 18 your knowledge? 19 A My — 20 MR. GRANT: I object to these questions on the grounds of 21 relevance. 22 MR. MACKENZIE: 23 Q Yes. I note that the witness answered that her 24 husband owned that home in Terrace. And how long have 25 you been living in Terrace, Mrs. Bazil? 26 A Since 1966. 27 MR. GRANT: I don't like to unnecessarily intervene, but the 28 question I objected to was who -- the question as to 2 9 who owned the home in which she is living. That is 30 the question I objected to, not the question of where 31 she's living and how long she's lived there. 32 MR. MACKENZIE: 33 Q And before 1966 where was the -- where was your 34 residence? 35 A Smithers. 36 Q And was your -- you were previously married to Frank 37 Bazil; is that correct? 38 A Yes. 39 Q Yes. And when did he pass on? 40 A Sixty-eight. 41 Q And while you were in Smithers did you own that home? 42 A Yes. 43 Q And in whose name was that house registered? 44 A My husband. 45 Q And how long had you lived in Smithers? When did you 46 first come to Smithers? 47 A From 1948 to '66. 1 Q 2 A 3 4 Q 5 A 6 Q 7 A 8 Q 9 10 A 11 Q 12 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 17 18 Q 19 20 A 21 Q 22 23 A 24 25 Q 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 Q 30 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 35 Q 36 A 37 38 39 40 Q 41 42 A 43 44 45 46 47 93 And what was the address of your house in Smithers? There was no number or anything on the house, but it was on Railroad Avenue just up here. Is that Railroad Avenue? Yes. And before 1948 where did you live? Houston. You were living in Houston. Was that the town of Houston? Yes. And were you living there with your husband Frank Bazil? Yes. And for how long had you lived there? Well, I got married in '36 and then we been moving around for about three, four years, then my husband got a job on C.N. and we lived in Houston. So would you say you lived in Houston from about 1940 to 1948? Somewhere there. And from 1936 to 1940 you lived with your husband Frank Bazil in various locations? Yes. We been moving different with where he gets a job, going to Prince Rupert fishing in summertime. And you were at the Sunnyside Cannery there? M.P. Cannery. Did you work at the cannery as well as your husband? Yes. And then you said that your husband worked in a pole camp; is that correct? Yes, in wintertime. And what is a pole camp? Pole camp, that's where they make the poles. He was cutting poles down in the bush like a logger. And where was that camp? It was at -- there close by one place was Mosquito Flat and a little ways this side is Beamont, a camp across the river. Both place he worked in about two, three years' time. And for whom was your husband working when he was cutting poles at Mosquito Flat? There was another people, contractors, was -- Big Tommy was the first guy he worked for, and another camp was Tommy Michell. These two Tommys, one's called Big Tommy because they're both Tommy Michell. And one was Big Tommy and the other one was Little Tommy. That's who he worked for. 1 Q 2 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 Q 7 8 A 9 Q 10 11 12 A 13 14 Q 15 16 A 17 Q 18 19 20 21 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 Q 28 29 A 30 Q 31 32 A 33 Q 34 35 A 36 Q 37 A 38 Q 39 A 40 41 42 Q 43 44 A 45 Q 46 A 47 Q 94 And before 1936 of course you were not married; that's correct? Yes. And you were -- were you living with your family? With my father, yes. My father and mother. Now, Mrs. Bazil, before you got married did you have an occupation other than assisting your father? Yes, just with my father. And from 1936 after you got married to 1940 when you moved to Houston, did you have an occupation during those years besides working at the cannery? I worked in the restaurant as dishwasher for a short period of time. That's all. And while you were living in Houston from 1940 to 1948 did you have an occupation then? No, just a housewife. Well, I know many people in this room would say that that is a very onerous occupation, so I'm not going to say it's not. So we'll say you had an occupation from then to 1948. Then you moved to Smithers. Did you have an occupation when you were in Smithers? Yes. What were you doing there? I work in the hospital part-time. Which hospital was that? Bulkley Valley District Hospital. And how long did you work at the Bulkley Valley District Hospital? Maybe for two years. And among your colleagues at the hospital were there other Wet'suwet'en people working there? Yes. After you -- after those two years at the hospital, did you go on to another occupation? Yes. What did you do then? I work in a restaurant. And where was that restaurant? The one was down by the lake, Lake Kathlyn down here. I worked for Freddie Watson -- not Fred Watson, I'm sorry, Wilfred Watson. Now, we're still talking about the time you were living in Smithers; is that correct? Yes. And how long did you work at Mr. Watson's restaurant? Probably a year. And then did you have an occupation after that? 95 1 A I worked at Hill Top Hotel as a chambermaid for about 2 a year and a half. 3 Q And that's here in Smithers? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And what other occupations did you have before 1966 6 while you were living in Smithers? 7 A I -- I changed my job to waitressing at North Star 8 Cafe. 9 Q Yes? 10 A I must have worked there about three years. 11 Q Yes? 12 A It's my last in Smithers. 13 Q Yes. Then in 1966 you moved to Terrace, and did you 14 move with your husband then Mr. Frank Bazil? 15 A No. We were separated. 16 Q Did you obtain a divorce from your husband Frank 17 Bazil? 18 A No. 19 MR. GRANT: I object to that question. It is not relevant. 20 MR. MACKENZIE: 21 Q And did you work in Terrace? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And what did you do there? 24 A Waitressing. 25 Q Now, when your husband was cutting poles at Mosquito 26 Flat and you were living at Beamont, which chief's 27 territory were you living on at that time? 28 A I'm not sure. I think that part there I can't answer 2 9 that. I don't remember at all. 30 Q Now, to your knowledge when your husband was cutting 31 poles, did he have occasion to speak to the chief on 32 the territory for permission? 33 A No. 34 Q You were working in the Bulkley Valley District 35 Hospital for two years. Whose territory is that 36 hospital on? 37 A It's Gitdumden territory. 38 Q And that's your father's clan? 39 A Yes. 4 0 Q To your knowledge did the chiefs of Gitdumden clan 41 give permission for that hospital to be built on that 42 territory? 43 A I can't answer that either. 44 Q And when you were living in Smithers your husband 45 owned the home -- your home there. Did he get 46 permission from the chief who owned this territory to 47 live there? 96 1 A No. Houston area was -- the territory was belonged to 2 my mother's uncle and the Indian people they -- 3 everybody had houses around there. Nobody got 4 permission from anyone. It was just everybody allowed 5 to build houses along there as a stopping place. 6 Q Yes. Now, speaking about your time in Smithers, you 7 were here from 1948 to 1966; correct? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And you had your home on Railroad Avenue? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Yes. And did your husband get permission from the 12 chief of this territory to build his home on Railroad 13 Avenue? 14 A No. There was -- whole town of Smithers they selling 15 land and he just bought a land from another Indian 16 person that had bought the land, and he moved -- he 17 was on C.N. and he was transferred to Houston and he 18 was selling his house, so my husband bought it off 19 him. 20 MR. MACKENZIE: I see. Now, you have discussed with Mr. Grant 21 the genealogy that's Exhibit 1. I'm putting it in 22 front of you. 23 MR. GRANT: Exhibit 1 is in front of her. 24 MR. MACKENZIE: You have the genealogy in front of you, don't 25 you, and I take it that you received some assistance 26 in the preparation of this genealogy, Mrs. Bazil; is 27 that correct? 28 MR. GRANT: Just a moment. I do not want questions -- I do 29 not -- I will not allow the witness to answer 30 questions which invades the solicitor-client privilege 31 and that question may invade it. I'm not suggesting 32 you can't go into that area, but if you do I want you 33 to rephrase the question so that you protect the 34 solicitor-client privilege because that's not 35 something I want her to answer. 36 MR. MACKENZIE: 37 Q Yes, I understand that. Thank you. Okay. Did you 38 have assistance in preparing this genealogy, Mrs. 39 Bazil? 40 A I'll have interpreter for that. I don't understand. 41 Yes. 42 Q And you told Mr. Grant that you had reviewed this 43 genealogy, Exhibit 1? 44 A Yes. 45 Q And you said to Mr. Grant that as far as you were 46 concerned it was correct? 47 A Yes. 97 1 MR. GRANT: With the corrections that I had made on it. 2 MR. MACKENZIE: 3 Q And Mr. Grant made some corrections to Exhibit 1 when 4 it was presented here and you were here? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And do you recall the -- you said that you thought 7 that Hazel Williams and your grandmother Susan were 8 cousins? 9 A That's how I understood it. 10 Q Yes. And is that what you understand now? 11 A Yes. 12 MR. GRANT: That's one of the corrections alluded to in this 13 evidence. 14 MR. MACKENZIE: 15 Q Yes. And Mr. Grant thought they were sisters, do you 16 recall that? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Yes. And would you agree with me if I suggested to 19 you that the genealogy shows that those — Hazel 20 Williams and your grandmother Susan are sisters? The 21 genealogy shows that, do you understand that? 22 A I'll have interpreter for that again, please? 23 THE INTERPRETER: What were the names again? 24 MR. MACKENZIE: Hazel Williams and your grandmother Susan are 25 shown as sisters on the genealogy? 26 MR. GRANT: Before the witness answers, I think she should have 27 an opportunity to look at that part of the genealogy 28 and you should direct her to it, to what you're 29 referring. 30 MR. MACKENZIE: 31 Q I agree, and I'm pleased to do that. I thought she 32 might understand that before we went to that extent of 33 showing it, but I don't mind doing that of course. 34 Okay. Now, for the record, I'm referring the 35 witness to page 2 and page 5, and if those two pages 36 are put together can you see -- will you agree with me 37 that Hazel Williams and your grandmother Susan are 38 shown as sisters? 39 A They -- I understood that they're -- they're cousins. 40 I didn't know whether they were sisters or not. 41 Q So will you agree with me, Mrs. Bazil, that if the 42 genealogy shows that they are sisters it is incorrect? 43 A I'll have the interpreter for that, please? I'm not 44 entirely sure at all. 45 MR. MACKENZIE: Now, referring to the genealogy again, Mrs. 46 Bazil, this is the genealogy, Exhibit 1. You see that 47 the name Khay Lah is not included in the genealogy; is 1 that correct? 2 MR. GRANT: Are you referring to a specific place or anywhere in 3 it? 4 MR. MACKENZIE: 5 Q I'm referring to the entire genealogy? 6 A I don't understand. I'll have interpreter for that 7 too, please? 8 THE INTERPRETER: Can you ask that question again, please? 9 MR. MACKENZIE: 10 Q Yes. I'm referring to the genealogy, Exhibit 1. 11 Would you agree with me that the name Khay Lah is not 12 included in the genealogy? 13 A No. 14 Q And so your answer is no, it is not included in the 15 genealogy? 16 A No. Different house. 17 Q Do I understand you to say that Khay Lah is not in the 18 House of Wah tah kwets? 19 A No. 20 Q Yes. You're saying that Khay Lah is in another house; 21 is that correct? 22 A I'm not sure. That's too far back to remember. 23 MR. MACKENZIE: Your answer to my earlier questions is a little 24 difficult to understand on the record and that's why 25 I'm trying to rephrase them, so -- 26 MR. GRANT: The questions are a little difficult to answer as 27 you phrase them I would say. 28 MR. MACKENZIE: Oh, thank you. 29 MR. GRANT: So maybe you can rephrase them so that a yes or no 30 is clear. 31 MR. MACKENZIE: 32 Q Yes. Well, that's the problem. 33 It is correct to say that the name Khay Lah is not 34 held in the House of Wah tah kwets? 35 A I'm sure it's not. 36 Q Okay. Do you know which house Khay Lah is held in? 37 A I can't remember the name of the house right now. 38 Q And continuing to refer to the genealogy Exhibit 1, I 39 now draw your attention to page 1 and the name 40 Skokumwasaas. That is a name in the House of Wah tah 41 kwets; correct? 42 A No. 43 Q Which house is Skokumwasaas held in? 44 A I think it's House of many eyes. 45 Q Is that Hagwilnegh? 46 A Yes. 47 MR. MACKENZIE: So the genealogy is incorrect where it says 99 1 Skokumwasaas; is that correct? 2 MR. GRANT: Wait, the genealogy says "Nora Tait", and under her 3 name "Skokumwasaas", so your question can't be 4 answered as it's asked. That -- that name under the 5 name Nora Tait may mean that she holds it, it may mean 6 it's in the house, it may mean all of those things, 7 but I think you should break down your question when 8 you say the genealogy isn't correct. You should ask 9 her specifically what you're referring to. I think 10 you, you know, should refer to Nora Tait whose name 11 it's under. 12 MR. MACKENZIE: 13 Q Okay. Referring to page 1 in Exhibit 1, the 14 genealogy, Nora Tait is shown as a member of the House 15 of Wah tah kwets; is that correct? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Yes. And was Nora Tait's name Skokumwasaas? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And how is it that Nora Tait, being a member of the 20 House of Wah tah kwet, held the name Skokumwasaas? 21 A This happen the last person that held that name that 22 was Wah tah kwets, the woman from Wah tah kwets' 23 House, from Hagwilnegh's House, was this girl Nora 24 Tait. She helped this man quite a bit, helping him 25 with giving him a ride and shopping for them because 26 they were pretty old, and she did a lot of things for 27 them personally. This is how the old Skokumwasaas 28 give the name to Nora Tait, Nora Vantunen now. That's 29 how it went to Wah tah kwets' House. 30 Q Now, when Nora Tait dies will the name Skokumwasaas 31 return to Hagwilnegh? 32 A It's supposed to, but it hasn't finished yet. The 33 girl died not too long ago and they haven't finished 34 the feast yet and they haven't talked about the name 35 yet. It's just sitting there now, as far as I know. 36 Q Now, did Heather Harris assist you in preparing this 37 genealogy? 38 A Say that again? 39 Q I'm going to rephrase that question, and I asked you 40 this before. Who assisted you in preparing that 41 genealogy? 42 A I'll have interpreter, please. 43 MR. GRANT: Just a moment. Before she answers the question, 44 again I object to questions that may lead to 45 solicitor-client privilege and I want you to exclude 46 that option -- 47 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 100 1 MR. GRANT: -- from the answer in your question, otherwise I 2 don't want her to answer. 3 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, I understand. Mrs. Bazil, I don't want you 4 at this time to tell me what was said to you, all I 5 want to know is the name of the person who helped you 6 prepare the genealogy, or persons. 7 MR. GRANT: When you say -- can you explain to her what you mean 8 by helped prepare it? What are you talking about? 9 MR. MACKENZIE: 10 Q Who did you discuss the genealogy with? 11 A I'll have interpreter, please. Yes. 12 Q And what was the name of that person who helped you? 13 A One of them was Victor Jim. 14 Q Who else helped you? 15 A I can't remember her name. There was a lady worked on 16 it. 17 Q And how would you describe that lady, was she a white 18 lady? 19 A Yeah, she worked on a lot of these. 20 Q And we've been referring to Exhibit 1 in this 21 commission and now I'm placing before you another 22 document which I'm instructed is the version of the 23 genealogy received by the defendants a couple of weeks 24 ago. I'm placing that in front of you and if you 25 look -- if you look at the bottom of the document 26 which I've just handed to you on page 1 you'll see 27 that under Jerry Tait and Lorraine Tait there are 28 three children shown, Sharon, Angela, and Spencer. Do 29 you see that on page 1? 30 A I'll ask the interpreter to explain to me, please? 31 MR. MACKENZIE: Okay. I note for the record that Mrs. Bazil is 32 now discussing something at length with Mr. Holland, 33 and perhaps Mr. Holland could indicate to us what this 34 discussion is? 35 MR. GRANT: He was just going to translate it. 36 MR. MACKENZIE: Thank you. 37 THE INTERPRETER: As a translator, I explain the situation, 38 children being on here. 39 MR. MACKENZIE: And now you're referring to the document I 40 placed before Mrs. Bazil? 41 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. And her answer was this: Lorraine Tait 42 and her children are of the G'e neegh la yex House and 43 Jerry Tait and Lorraine Tait are of the same clan. 44 The children are of a different house. 45 MR. MACKENZIE: 46 Q So -- yes. So Lorraine Tait's children belong to 47 another house? 101 1 A Yes. 2 Q Yes. 3 A Only Jerry's right here. 4 MR. MACKENZIE: I understand Jerry's, right. Now, the document 5 that I've placed before you which shows the Tait 6 children I would like to have that marked as an 7 exhibit for identification so that -- with the 8 possibility of having it proved so that we know what 9 we're speaking of. 10 Now, Mr. Grant, following your suggestion, though, 11 we'll mark it Exhibit 6 for identification. 12 13 (EXHIBIT 6 FOR IDENTIFICATION: Genealogy #2, entitled 14 "Kwen Beegh Yex - House beside the Fire. Wah tah 15 kwets - Laksilyu") 16 17 MR. GRANT: Yes. I think that's properly an exhibit for 18 identification. The witness hasn't identified the 19 exhibit at all if she's ever seen it before. What are 20 you going to call that for the record since we have 21 two? 22 MR. MACKENZIE: Thank you. Yes. Now, I'm going to describe our 23 Exhibit 6 for identification, and I'm going to call it 24 genealogy number two I received -- I received prior to 25 the present commission. 26 MR. GRANT: It was delivered 14 days prior to the commencement 27 of this commission. 28 MR. MACKENZIE: 29 Q Now, I'm referring to Exhibit 6 for identification, 30 Mrs. Bazil. Have you seen that document before, the 31 one with Jerry Tait's children on it? 32 A Yes. 33 Q Yes. And under what circumstances did you see that 34 document, Exhibit 6 for identification? 35 A When I looked through it. 36 Q I see. You reviewed it prior to this commission; is 37 that correct? 38 A Yes. 39 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. And at that time you noted that some 40 corrections had to be made to it; is that correct? 41 MR. GRANT: Don't — I object. You're moving into an area of 42 solicitor-client privilege. 43 MR. MACKENZIE: Sorry. Well, I'm sorry, Mr. Grant, I won't go 44 into areas of solicitor-client privilege, but may I 45 ask you whether you include in that comments and 46 conclusions of the witness reached as a result of 47 examination of this document, or do you mean only 102 1 information given by solicitors to the witness or 2 instructions given by the witness to solicitors? 3 MR. GRANT: No, I'm talking about instructions from the witness 4 to legal counsel. 5 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 6 MR. GRANT: And I don't believe you can go into that. You 7 haven't -- you haven't established through the 8 evidence the circumstances under which she looked at 9 that document. 10 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 11 MR. GRANT: But I can inform you that I was the person present 12 and I was her counsel and that's why I'm objecting, 13 and I'm not trying to block you from what you want to 14 pursue, I'm only saying I don't want you to move into 15 that realm of instructions to the witness from legal 16 counsel. 17 MR. MACKENZIE: I understand. 18 MR. GRANT: I think you can achieve your objectives without 19 doing that. 20 MR. MACKENZIE: 21 Q Yes. And you reviewed this document, Exhibit 6 for 22 identification, with Mr. Grant; is that correct? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And when you reviewed the exhibit, you concluded that 25 there were certain changes that had to be made? 26 A Well, they all Laksilyu. We all sit on the same side 27 of the wall, but only house is different. 28 Q Yes. So you concluded that there were certain changes 2 9 that had to be made in the document Exhibit 6 for 30 identification? 31 A Yes. 32 MR. MACKENZIE: Mr. Grant, that's convenient for me to conclude 33 today at that point. 34 MR. GRANT: Okay. You're moving into another area? 35 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, another area apart from this particular 3 6 document. 37 MR. GRANT: Okay. 38 39 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO NOVEMBER 25, 1987) 40 41 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 42 a true and accurate transcript of the 43 proceedings herein transcribed to the 44 best of my skill and ability. 45 46 47 Tanita S. French 103 1 Official Reporter 2 3 November 25, 1987 4 Smithers, B.C. 5 6 LUCY BAZIL, Witness, Previously sworn; 7 GEORGE HOLLAND, Interpreter, Previously sworn; 8 9 MR. MACKENZIE: This is November 25 and we're continuing with 10 the cross-examination of Mrs. Lucy Bazil, and Mr. 11 Grant, you had some comments you wished to make? 12 MR. GRANT: Yes. Yesterday I put on the record that there was 13 an agreement that I could refer Mrs. Bazil in cross -- 14 during her cross-examination to a map. I just want to 15 advise you that I have not done so, so that it is not 16 left ambiguous as to whether I had that discussion 17 with her or not. So I have not -- I've not done so 18 and I don't intend to -- to speak to her about the 19 map. 20 MR. MACKENZIE: Thank you. Mrs. Bazil, I'm placing before you 21 Exhibit 6 for identification, the genealogy the 22 defendants received about November 7th this year, and 23 I now wish to have that exhibit noted as an exhibit as 24 proven by you. You indicated yesterday that you had 25 seen that genealogy; is that correct? 26 MR. GRANT: Just a moment. I'd just ask that the witness -- you 27 can examine that and compare it with, if you wish, 28 Exhibit 1 to be sure, because on the quick look they 29 look the same, to be sure that you've actually seen 30 Exhibit 6 before yesterday. And you should look 31 through all the pages, Mrs. Bazil, before you answer 32 him. 33 MR. MACKENZIE: I understood, Mr. Grant, that Mrs. Bazil — that 34 was her testimony yesterday. 35 MR. GRANT: Yes. She had looked at the first page of it only 36 when she answered it and I think she should have an 37 opportunity to look at the whole thing. I think it's 38 only fair to advise her that those two documents are 39 different in some respects. That's all. 40 THE WITNESS: I believe I didn't see this one. 41 MR. MACKENZIE: 42 Q You're saying you haven't seen Exhibit 6? 43 A Yes. Why do you say that? This one here. You're referring to Exhibit 6? He's deceased and here he is -- he's not deceased 44 Q 45 A 46 Q 47 A 104 1 here. 2 Q Okay. You are referring now to page 6 of Exhibit 6 3 and you're pointing to Tap Halonen? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And on Exhibit 6, page 6, Tap Halonen is shown as 6 still living; is that correct? I mean it's shown as 7 he's still living? 8 A Yes, he's still alive. 9 Q But in fact he's dead? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And you made that correction to the -- 12 A Yes. 13 Q -- new genealogy, Exhibit 1, didn't you? 14 A Yes. 15 MR. MACKENZIE: Thank you. Now, I'm showing you another 16 genealogy which, I'm instructed, the defendants 17 received in June 1987 appears to be a genealogy of the 18 House of Wah tah kwets. I'm placing it before you. 19 I'm handing it to Mr. Grant first. 20 MR. GRANT: I don't have a copy of this one with me and I will 21 ask for you to provide me with a copy of this today so 22 that I can review it. 23 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, of course, Mr. Grant. 24 MR. GRANT: And this document, as I recall, this was not 25 tendered as an exhibit or hasn't been introduced at 26 the trial; is that right? 27 MR. MACKENZIE: That's correct. 28 MR. GRANT: But it was delivered to you sometime in June? 29 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. As I understand that in preparation for 30 Madeline Alfred's testimony. 31 MR. GRANT: Yes. 32 MR. MACKENZIE: I'm placing that genealogy befoe you now, Mrs. 33 Bazil. Please look at that and tell me whether you've 34 seen that genealogy? Yes. Mr. Holland is assisting 35 you there. 36 THE INTERPRETER: Got to get the kinks out of it first. 37 THE WITNESS: I believe I didn't see this either. 38 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. I'd like to mark that genealogy as 39 Exhibit 7 for identification following Mr. Grant's 40 suggestion. 41 MR. GRANT: Well — well, if it's for identification I guess 42 it's all right. There's no way that it is proved 43 because this witness says she hasn't seen it before. 44 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, I agree. 45 46 (EXHIBIT 7 FOR IDENTIFICATION: Handwritten genealogy 47 of Wah Tah Kwets, Kwen Beegh Yex) 105 1 2 MR. GRANT: I suggest that that seems to be more handwritten and 3 that should be marked as a draft genealogy of Wah tah 4 kwets delivered in June of 1987. 5 MR. MACKENZIE: 6 Q Yes. I just note that there doesn't appear to be an 7 indication as to a draft genealogy, but I agree with 8 Mr. Grant that it does appear to be handwritten. 9 Now, Mrs. Bazil, I want to refer you to Exhibit 1 10 which is the genealogy that you've identified here. 11 You said yesterday that Victor Jim assisted you in 12 preparing that. You recall that? 13 A When they were working on it he give me — he asked me 14 a few questions if they were right or wrong about two 15 or three times. He want to make sure it was right or 16 wrong. That's how he helped me. 17 Q Did he come down to visit you in Terrace? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And you said that you also spoke to a white lady about 20 that. Do you recall doing that? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And — 23 A She's the one that worked on it. I can't remember her 2 4 name. 25 Q Is her name Antonia Mills? 26 A I think it's Tonia. 27 Q You think that's her name? 28 A Yes. 29 MR. MACKENZIE: And, as I understand it, Victor Jim and Antonia 30 Mills prepared the draft genealogy and then brought it 31 to you to discuss it; is that correct? 32 MR. GRANT: Just a moment. Which genealogy are you referring 33 to? You've now got three charts. 34 MR. MACKENZIE: 35 Q Thank you very much. As I understand it, Victor Jim 36 and Antonia Mills prepared the genealogy, Exhibit 1, 37 and brought it to you to discuss it; is that correct? 38 A Yes. 39 Q When did you first see that genealogy, Exhibit 1? 40 A It was last trip I was up here, can't remember what 41 month. Somewhere in July. 42 Q July 1987? 43 A Yes, somewhere there. I can't remember exact month. 44 Q Now, when you came to Smithers in July 1987, did you 45 see a version of the genealogy, Exhibit 1, that was 46 handwritten? 47 A No, I don't think I did. I seen it the way it is. 106 1 Q I see. You saw the typed out -- 2 A Yes. 3 MR. GRANT: That is handwritten there. 4 MR. MACKENZIE: 5 Q I note that Exhibit 1 is handwritten. Did you see a 6 genealogy with those dark titles on it, dark letters, 7 is that what you recall? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And I'm referring to the dark titles on Exhibit 1 now. 10 Now, referring you to Exhibit 1, page 1, and 11 Exhibit 7 for identification, page 1, and Exhibit 6 12 for identification, page 1, now could you look at 13 Exhibit 7, page 1, please? You have it there before 14 you? 15 A Page 7? 16 MR. MACKENZIE: No. Exhibit 7, page 1, and you see "Lorraine 17 Tait" at the bottom of that page? 18 MR. GRANT: I think you better point it out to her. I can't see 19 it. 20 MR. MACKENZIE: 21 Q Looking at -- it might be easier to look at Exhibit 6, 22 page 1, which is this one right here I'm handing to 23 you, and you see at the bottom of page 1 "Lorraine 24 Tait" is noted with her children "Sharon" and 2 5 "Angela"? 26 A Yes. 27 Q Yes. That's on Exhibit 6, page 1, you're looking at; 28 correct? 29 A Yes. 30 Q Yes. And that is not on Exhibit 7, page 1, is it? 31 That's the first one you looked at? 32 A Yes. It's not on there. 33 MR. GRANT: Well, can you point out where Lorraine Tait is on 34 there? 35 MR. MACKENZIE: Can you see Lorraine Tait on page 1 of Exhibit 36 7? She should be married to Jerry Tait; correct? 37 MR. GRANT: Well, maybe you could point it out to her. I don't 38 see Lorraine Tait on page 1 of Exhibit 7. 39 MR. MACKENZIE: 40 Q That's right. I'm showing you page 1, Exhibit 7, and 41 at the bottom there is "Jerry Tait"; correct? 42 A I see Jerry Tait, yes. 43 Q Yes. But Lorraine Tait is not shown on there is she? 44 A No. 45 Q No. And her children Sharon, Angela and Spencer are 46 not shown on there are they? 47 A No. 107 No. But they are shown on Exhibit 6, aren't they, page 1? Yes. Yes. And then on Exhibit 1, which is in front of you, all that we have are Jerry Tait and Lorraine Tait; correct? Yes. Yes. So on Exhibit 1 at page 1 the children Sharon Tait, Angela Tait and Spencer Tait are not shown; is that correct? No. That is correct? No. I mean it's correct that they're not shown? They're not shown there. Yes. Now, Mrs. Bazil, your daughter Betty Ann married Tap Halonen didn't she? Yes. And they had a daughter Janet; correct? Yes. And then Janet had two sons Jason and Aaron; correct? Yes. And when were Jason and Aaron born? The oldest's about three years old, the young one's about two years old. And Jason and Aaron are your great-grandsons aren't they? Yes. Now, I'm referring you to Exhibit 7, page 3, and I'm pointing to you that Mark Halonen and Janet Summerfeld are shown on that page; correct? Yes. Yes. But Janet's children are not shown on that page are they, page 3? No. 36 MR. GRANT: This is the exhibit which the witness indicated 37 she'd never seen before today. 38 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. Thank you, Mr. Grant. I think that's 39 clear. 40 MR. GRANT: Just to be sure since we're having so many 41 genealogies. 42 MR. MACKENZIE: 43 Q Yes. I was referring to Exhibit 7 for identification. 44 So, Mrs. Bazil, there are -- there appear to be 45 differences between these genealogies; is that 46 correct? 47 A There is some difference. Yes. 1 Q 2 3 A 4 Q 5 6 7 A 8 Q 9 10 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 26 Q 27 28 A 29 Q 30 31 32 A 33 Q 34 35 A 1 MR. GRA1 2 MR. MAC] 3 Q 4 5 6 A 7 Q 8 A 9 Q 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 17 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 24 Q 25 A 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 Q 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 A 45 Q 46 A 47 Q 108 : Between the charts you mean? >JZIE: Yes. I'm sorry, between the charts. Now, you had a daughter Lillian Bazil also didn't you Mrs. Bazil? Yes. And Lillian had two girls, Tommy and Terry? Tammy. Tammy and Terry; correct? Yes. They're your grand-daughters? Yes. Yes. And Lillian married Dean Granley? Yes. Yes. Now, referring you to Exhibit 7 for identification, page 3, and you see that Lillian Bazil is shown on that page 3? Yes. But her children are not shown are they? No. When were her children born? They are -- the older one is coming to 18 and the other one's 14, and she just had a child last month. That is one of the -- Tammy or Terry had a child? No, herself had another child. Oh, Lillian had another child? Yes. Thank you. Do you know Dominque or did you know Dominique West? Yes. What clan was he in? Dominique West was Gitdumden. Gitdumden. And what house was he in? I can't remember that. Where did he live? He used to live in Babine. And is he in the House of Wah tah kwets? No. No? He's Gitdumden's. I don't know the house he belong. Do you know Frank Patrick? Yes. And he lives where? I believe he live in Smithers now. In Smithers now. Where did he live before? Babine. Babine. And he's a member of the House of Wah tah 109 1 2 A 3 Q 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 16 17 A 18 Q 19 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 24 Q 25 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 Q 30 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 Q 37 A 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 A 42 Q 43 A 4 4 MR. GRANT 45 4 6 MR. macke: 4 7 MR. GRANT Frank Patrick's chief's name? Wah tah kwets. kwets? Yes. Yes. And what is his clan? He's the same as mine. And is he a member of the Babine band? I can't tell you that. I don't know now. Does he -- he speaks the same language as you doesn't he? Yes. Yes. And what is I understand he's Wah tah kwets? Yes. Now, is it your understanding that all members of the House of Wah tah kwets claim an interest in the territories of Wah tah kwets? Yes. So do you understand that Frank Patrick also claims an interest in Wah tah kwets' territories? He never asked me. I see. I never talked to him. I know him as a person and he is in our house, but I haven't spoke with him. Were you present at the April 1986 All Clans Feast at Moricetown? Yes. And was Frank Patrick there to your recollection? I can't remember if he was there or not. Do you recall that Frank Patrick arranged the seating at that feast? I don't remember that either. And do you know, or did you know, George Joseph? Yes. Was he a member of the house of Wah tah kwets? He's my uncle, my mother's brother. And he had a trap line at McDonnell Lake? Yes. And he lives at Burns Lake? Yes. Or he lived at Burns Lake? He was married up there. Yes. And he was a member of the Babine band? For a while he was. : Just -- I believe there's been rulings in terms of band membership that it's not relevant -- JZIE: I'm sorry -- : -- as I recall. 110 1 MR. MACKENZIE: — Mr. Grant — well, I'm sorry, I don't mean to 2 interrupt you. Go ahead. 3 MR. GRANT: I believe there were rulings at trial as to band 4 membership not being relevant. There certainly were 5 rulings on the interrogatories that they were not 6 relevant. 7 MR. MACKENZIE: Well, perhaps I could assist you. There was a 8 long line of questions, as you recall, of -- was it 9 Mary Johnson, who lives at Hazelton, and there were 10 several questions, as you recall, about her living on 11 the reserve and participating in the band council 12 elections, and questions about the reserve. Do you 13 recall that? 14 MR. GRANT: About where she was living and her involvement with 15 the reserve? 16 MR. MACKENZIE: And her band membership and her number, do you 17 recall that? 18 MR. GRANT: I don't recall that, no, but I will just reserve — 19 MR. MACKENZIE: Fine. 20 MR. GRANT: I will note the objection on relevance. 21 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. That's a good way to do it if you object, 22 and then you can argue that. 23 MR. GRANT: I'm not going to -- I'm not going to prevent you 24 from asking the question, but I want to put you on 25 notice for relevancy, and the reason I do that is that 26 depending on the extent of the questioning in areas 27 which I think are not relevant, we may have to deal 28 with this before further commissions because I don't 29 want the witness to clarify or not get into larger 30 irrelevant areas, but I'm just noting the objection 31 for now. 32 MR. MACKENZIE: Thank you. 33 MR. GRANT: Just if I may say, Mrs. Bazil, if I speak up even if 34 you just wait until I'm through, you don't have to 35 answer until Mr. Mackenzie and I are through. I just 36 want her to understand the procedure. Can I ask you 37 was it Mr. George Joseph you were asking about? 38 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 39 MR. GRANT: What band — he was a member of the Babine band? 40 MR. MACKENZIE: 41 Q Babine band. Yes. 42 Now, we were talking about George Joseph and he 43 had a trap line at McDonnell Lake as you said? 44 A Yes. 45 Q Yes. And that's in Wah tah kwets' territory? 46 A Yes. 47 Q Yes. Now, we talked also about Frank Patrick, and Ill 1 what did you say his chief's name was? 2 A Wah tah kwets. 3 Q Wah tah kwets. And what is John Namox's chief's name? 4 A Wah tah kwets. 5 Q Now, how is it that they both have the same chief's 6 name? 7 A Well, Frank Patrick, he's from the Babine band, so 8 they hold the name up there too and so is Moricetown 9 reserve, so he's Babine Wah tah kwets and John Namox 10 is Moricetown Wah tah kwets, but when Wah tah kwets is 11 here they both sit in the same wall. 12 Q I see. They sit together? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And they claim an interest in the Wah tah kwets' 15 territories, for example, at McDonnell Lake? 16 A Like I said, at that part I never talked to him about 17 it. 18 Q Yes. Now, what is the Wet'suwet'en word for house? 19 A Wet'suwet'en? 20 Q Yes. 21 A Wet'suwet'en means a lower part of the area, kind 22 of -- "Wet'su" means little bit bottom part. 23 Oh, yes, I'm sorry. 24 A But the area in Moricetown is the bottom part of 25 Wet'suwet'en. That's where it starts from there to go 26 up the line. That's Wet'suwet'en. That's where it 27 starts from is the bottom part of the country. 28 MR. GRANT: Maybe you could ask the translator to ask that 29 question. 30 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 31 MR. GRANT: I think she misunderstood the question. 32 MR. MACKENZIE: 33 Q Yes. And I think now I'll ask that question again, 34 and what I'd like to know is the term that the 35 Wet'suwet'en people use for the word "house". Is 36 there a term? 37 A You mean the house for each trap? 38 Q No. You were the House of Wah tah kwets; correct? 39 A Yes. 4 0 Q And what is the Wet'suwet'en name for the term 41 "house"? 42 A I just can't understand. I'll ask the interpreter for 43 that. 44 Q Yes. Thank you. 45 A A long time ago each -- each house in the clan had a 46 long house and the family in that house like ourselves 47 was called Kwen beegh Yex. 112 So that's the name of your house? Yes. Kwen beegh Yex. That means "House beside the Fire" does it? Yes. Is there a Wet'suwet'en name for the word "clan"? Iidagh. Can we have a spelling on that, please? Iidagh. Iidagh. 9 MR. MITCHELL: Iidagh. Iidagh, I-i-d-a-g-h. >JZIE: And is it true to say that within a clan there are several houses? Yes. You are the Laksilyu Clan; correct? Yes. And in the Laksilyu Clan what are the houses? Kwen beegh yex. That's one. Is there another one? G'e neegh la yex. And is there another one? Tse k'al k'a yex. And the name Wah tah kwets is the chief's name; is that correct? Yes. And the chief's name sometimes is not the same as the house name; is that correct? Yes. So Chief Wah tah kwets is the chief of the House of Kwen beegh Yex? Yes. Now, you testified that when you were 12 you spent two years at the residential school at Le Jac; correct? Yes. And you also said that your uncle Jack Joseph was the church chief; is that correct? Yes. Yes. He was the church chief at Moricetown? Yes. And do you know that Mooseskin Johnny was also a church chief at Moricetown? After him. Yes. What was your uncle Jack Joseph -- what were your uncle Jack Joseph's duties as a church chief? He looks after the people that -- he looks after the church when Minister comes, he looks after that, and he looks after the people. And he was a member of the church? 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 A 9 MR. MIT< 10 MR. MAC] 11 Q 12 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 24 A 25 Q 26 27 A 28 Q 29 30 A 31 Q 32 33 A 34 Q 35 36 A 37 Q 38 A 39 Q 40 41 A 42 Q 43 44 A 45 46 47 Q 113 1 A Yes. 2 Q He was baptized? 3 A Yes. 4 Q He was a member of the Roman Catholic Church? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And Mooseskin Johnny was also a member of the Roman 7 Catholic Church? 8 A Before him yes, he was. 9 Q Yes. Mooseskin Johnny came before Jack Joseph? 10 A Yes. When he died was when my uncle was put in. 11 Q Is the church chief an important person in Moricetown? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And are you a member of a church? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Yes. Are you a member of the Roman Catholic Church? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And you attend church? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Regularly? 2 0 A Well, when we there. 21 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. You attend church in Terrace? 22 MR. GRANT: I object on the basis of relevance. 23 MR. MACKENZIE: 24 Q Did you attend church in Smithers when you were living 25 in Smithers? 26 A Yes, I did. 27 Q You testified that when you were on the territory you 28 used to go up to Houston each Christmas; is that 29 correct? 30 A Yes. 31 Q Yes. And did you celebrate Christmas? 32 A Not really. There was not much to celebrate those 33 days. 34 Q Yes? 35 A Like today. 36 Q Yes? 37 A They believe in -- they believe in Christ was born and 38 the night they want to go to church if there is church 39 service. If not, they'll say prayers and then next 40 day they have little dinner. 41 Q Yes? 42 A We don't receive gifts like they do today. 43 Q Oh, I see. 44 A We have treats, a little bit of candies and apples, 45 orange, and that was our treat. 46 Q Now, I understand -- did you want to stop now or did 47 you want to wait until -- okay. You're going to let 1 2 3 4 5 A 6 Q 7 A 8 Q 9 10 A 11 Q 12 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 Q 31 A 32 Q 33 34 A 35 Q 36 37 A 38 Q 39 40 A 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 A 45 Q 46 A 47 Q 114 me know when it's time. I'm speaking to the camera man now. Mrs. Bazil, you testified that you married Frank Bazil in 1936; is that correct? Yes. And did you marry in the Roman Catholic Church? Yes. Did Mr. Bazil -- did Frank obtain a marriage licence do you know? Yes. And one year ago you married Dan Verigin. Did you get married in the church? No. Did you get a marriage licence? Yes. Do you drive a car, Mrs. Bazil? Yes. Yes. You have a driver's licence? Yes. And you drove up here from Terrace for the commission evidence today? Yes. Yes. You came along Highway 16? Yes. When you lived with Frank Bazil in Smithers you lived on Railroad Avenue; correct? Yes. Yes. And you had a home there? Yes. Yes. And you paid property taxes for that home? Yes. And you paid income taxes for the money that you received when you were working? Yes. Yes. And do you receive a pension now from the government? Yes. Yes. Did you vote in the last provincial election, Mrs. Bazil? I wasn't at home at the time. I didn't. Have you voted in a provincial election? No. Have you voted in a municipal election? Not this last one. Have you voted in any municipal election? I used to, but not lately. I see. 115 1 A I didn't -- this last one I didn't. 2 Q I understand. You voted when you were in Smithers? 3 A I did in Terrace too, but just lately I didn't. 4 Q I understand. Okay. Now, you had 15 children, didn't 5 you, Mrs. Bazil? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And you testified that several of your children went 8 to school? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Yes. And when you were in Smithers they went to 11 school in Smithers? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Did any of your children go on to university? 14 A No. 15 Q You also mentioned that you had had some -- attended 16 some conventions in Vancouver and Victoria; is that 17 correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Yes. And you said you were with the non-status 20 association? 21 A Yes. 22 MR. MACKENZIE: What is the full name of that association? 2 3 MR. GRANT: Now? 24 MR. MACKENZIE: 25 Q Now? 26 A They call it Native -- United Native Nation. 27 Q How long have you been a member of that association? 28 A Ever since 1970 I think. 29 Q Do you know other Wet'suwet'en people who are members 30 of that association? 31 A Yes. 32 MR. MACKENZIE: And what are the objectives of that 33 association? 34 MR. GRANT: I might ask what relevance that is to the 35 proceedings here? 36 MR. MACKENZIE: Do you wish to object to that, Mr. Grant? 37 MR. GRANT: I think that you may clarify the relevance, but I'm 38 objecting to it because now you're getting into the 39 objectives of an association of which she's a member. 40 I'm not objecting to you asking if she's a member, but 41 you're getting into the objectives of the association 42 which is not a party to this action. I want to know 43 what the relevance is before I agree that she can 44 answer the question. 45 MR. MACKENZIE: Okay. I'll explain what I consider the 46 relevance to be. I think that that association may 47 represent a different political context than the 116 1 context in which the people in this litigation are 2 conducting their -- forwarding their claims, and so I 3 think it's relevant to show that -- other activities 4 which these people are engaging, political activities. 5 MR. GRANT: So if she said that she was a member of the Liberal 6 party of Canada, you would then ask what the 7 objectives of the Liberal party of Canada were? 8 MR. MACKENZIE: No, I don't think so. I think that this is an 9 Indian association and it has aims related to the 10 Indian people in British Columbia, and that's why I 11 think it's relevant to this litigation. 12 And we have to stop now, Mr. Grant, to change the 13 tape. 14 MR. GRANT: Okay. We'll go off the record for a moment. 15 16 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A SHORT RECESS) 17 18 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) 19 20 MR. MACKENZIE: This is tape number 4. It's a continuation of 21 Mrs. Lucy Bazil's commission. We're 22 cross-examining -- I'm cross-examining Lucy Bazil and 23 Mr. Grant has some comments he wishes to make. 24 MR. GRANT: Yes. Since — during the break Mrs. Madeline Alfred 25 and Mrs. Mary Jim have come to sit in on the 26 commission evidence and they are sitting with Mrs. 27 Bazil. 28 MR. MACKENZIE: 29 Q Mrs. Bazil, is Mary Jim related to you? 30 A My sister-in-law. 31 Q Yes. And she's Peter Jim's wife? 32 A Wife, yes. 33 MR. MACKENZIE: Now, before we broke I'd asked you a 34 question -- I asked you a question about the United 35 Native Nation's Association and I asked what are the 36 objectives of that organization. 37 MR. GRANT: I reserve -- I maintain my objection, but I'm not 38 going to oppose the witness answering the question at 39 this time, but my objection -- I wish to further 40 consider it, given the explanation you've given, and 41 reserve the right to object to her answers and that 42 evidence going in at trial, but subject to that I'll 43 let her proceed. 44 MR. MACKENZIE: 45 Q Thank you. What are the objectives of the United 46 Native Nation's Association? 47 A Objective I don't understand so I'll ask the 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 22 23 24 25 Q 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 Q 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 Q 34 A 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 117 interpreter to explain to me. Well, the first one we got enfranchised we lost our status and we were called non-status Indians and we were not recognized by Indian people and we were not recognized by the whites, by the government also, and the Indian people, the non-status people, they start getting together on their own and they made a group, called themselves non-status Indians because the organization start to be recognized who they were. This is how they started. And I was living in Terrace around 1970 there was small group that started it and I was interested in and I joined them, and every time there's a convention on there was small groups and then they beginning to be a larger group and they start having conventions in Victoria, Vancouver, Prince George and I went every one of them. And what do they want to achieve? They want to be recognized. And whom do they wish to be recognized by? By the governments and by the native people because we felt that we called non-status that we are nobody the way we were. We were between the whites and the Indians so the reason they did this was to be recognized who we were. Was a member of your family enfranchised? Yes. Who was that? My husband. And is that how you became a non-status Indian? Yes. Your husband Frank Bazil? Yes, he became enfranchised. And why did he do that? The reason he did that was we were moving all over the place. We never live in reserve because there was no work. He work little bit there and there, but there was no work and then he find job different place and we moved again. And at the time he got a job in Houston at C.N.R. and he know he gets a box of shells every winter from the Indian Affairs from Hazelton and the money he's making was not enough. He figures he'll get a box of shell from them again. He wrote letter and reply -- the letter came back saying that he's off reserve six months. He was not entitled to anything from the -- from the Indian Affairs. And he didn't get the box of shells and he got upset about it. I was too young to -- to know what was going on 118 1 at the time, but he was upset about it and there was 2 other people that already got enfranchised on the same 3 deal and they all living at Houston and they were not 4 getting anything from Indian Affairs also, and then 5 what he figured that was the best to go enfranchised 6 and that's how he did that. 7 Q And he lived at the Moricetown reserve before? 8 A Yes. 9 Q He was a member of the Moricetown band? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Did Frank Bazil, your former husband, apply to the 12 government for land in the Houston district, a crown 13 grant? 14 A No, he didn't. 15 Q Do you recall anything about that? 16 A He never asked. He probably did, but he didn't get 17 anything. 18 Q And your brother's name is Peter Jim, right? 19 A Yes. 2 0 Q And he's a member of the Moricetown band? 21 A Yes. 22 Q He lives on the Moricetown reserve? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And he -- you said he traps in the Quick area; is that 25 correct? 26 A Yes. 27 Q And he has a registered trap line in that area; is 28 that correct? 29 A Yes. 30 Q Yes. He took over Louie Tommy's line didn't he? 31 A Yes. 32 Q And you're a member of that registered trap line 33 aren't you? 34 A Right. 35 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 36 MR. GRANT: What document is this -- document number is this 37 from do you know? 38 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. We can advise you that's on our list of 39 documents as the -- as trap line files from the land 40 claims area. It's on the defendant's list of 41 documents, document number 1276. 42 MR. GRANT: 1276 is a series of files; is that correct? 43 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, that's correct. 44 MR. GRANT: It's a whole group of them. 45 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. This document is taken from the trap line 46 file 0608T014 and the current owner is Peter Jim and 47 that is one of the files in our list of documents, 119 1 document number 1276. 2 MR. GRANT: I'm sure you can appreciate that that file -- that 3 document itself, that document number itself, is a 4 listing which I believe we've referred to before even 5 at trial that we wanted a more -- a better breakdown 6 of that document series and of course there's a huge 7 number of documents that are in -- incorporated into 8 that document number. In short that I have not had an 9 opportunity to review this particular document, so if 10 you just want to take a moment? 11 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. Could I say I appreciate your comments, Mr. 12 Grant, but could I say that the plaintiffs have made 13 copies of all these documents and -- 14 MR. GRANT: The plaintiffs have? 15 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. A person from your or Mr. Rush's office 16 came and copied all these documents, and so it's my 17 understanding that they're in your possession. I 18 might also say that these files are in file folders 19 with the trap line file number on them as a label in 20 that collection. 21 MR. GRANT: Yes. No, I'm not saying that you didn't give us 22 opportunity to review them or even that they haven't 23 been copied, I just don't -- I personally have not 24 perused them. 25 MR. MACKENZIE: Right. I just handed to Mr. Grant a document 26 that I wish to put to the witness and Mr. Grant is 27 just reviewing it now. I've also handed him a copy of 28 the document, a photocopy. 29 MR. GRANT: Is this document incorporated in the -- in that 30 document which is an exhibit to the -- your map, your 31 alienation project and your mapping? 32 MR. MACKENZIE: It's incorporated to the extent that that 33 alienation project contains a map of trap lines with 34 all the numbers on it. 35 MR. GRANT: Right. 36 MR. MACKENZIE: And the number of this file is one of those 37 numbers because it's a registered trap line in the 38 Quick area. 39 MR. GRANT: But this particular document is in the supporting 40 documention on that map? That was only — 41 MR. MACKENZIE: That's correct. It's referred to in that 42 document. 43 MR. GRANT: Okay. 44 MR. MACKENZIE: And it's on our list of documents. 45 MR. GRANT: Finally, do you have the balance of this file with 46 you today? 47 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. I can let you — I can give a copy of that 120 1 to you if you'd like to review it over the noon hour 2 or -- 3 MR. GRANT: Fine. 4 MR. MACKENZIE: — in the next day or so. 5 MR. GRANT: I'd like to review it over the noon hour. 6 MR. MACKENZIE: Fine. 7 MR. GRANT: But I'm not objecting to you asking questions on it. 8 This is a copy? 9 MR. MACKENZIE: 10 Q Yes. I've handed to you a photocopy of this document. 11 Mrs. Bazil, I'm now putting before you a document 12 entitled "Application for registration of a trap line" 13 in the name of Peter Jim and Company. And at the 14 bottom of the document on the lower right-hand side is 15 a signature "Peter Jim". Is that your brother's 16 signature? 17 A Yes. 18 MR. MACKENZIE: And I'd like that document to be marked as 19 Exhibit 8? 20 MR. GRANT: Well, for identification. 21 MR. MACKENZIE: Well, I'm sorry, Mr. Grant, my position would be 22 that she's identified the signature and therefore 23 proved the document. 24 MR. GRANT: Well, she has identified that signature. You didn't 25 ask her if she's ever seen this before. I'd ask it be 26 marked for identification at this time and we can deal 27 with it. 28 MR. MACKENZIE: Fine. 29 MR. GRANT: You've established what you say is a ground to prove 30 it. 31 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 32 MR. GRANT: And I think if you're right on that point then it 33 can go in as an exhibit proper. 34 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, I understand. Well, in order to, as we both 35 want to have the commission proceed, I won't trouble 36 you with an argument or discussion and we'll do that. 37 We'll mark it as Exhibit 8 for identification, 38 indicating my position that it has been proven and by 39 proof of the signature, and we can resolve that some 40 other time perhaps. 41 42 (EXHIBIT 8 FOR IDENTIFICATION: Application for 43 registration for a trap line by Peter Jim) 44 45 MR. MACKENZIE: 46 Q I'd ask that that conversation between Mr. Grant and 47 Miss Koenigsberg not be recorded. I don't think Mr. 121 1 Grant intended that to be part of the record. 2 Now, the other members of that trap line are John 3 Tommy. Do you know him, Mrs. Bazil? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Who's he? 6 A He's the son of my uncle Wah tah kwets. 7 Q And what is your uncle Wah tah kwets' name? 8 A Louie Tommy. 9 Q Louie Tommy. And Laurence A. Tommy is also Louie 10 Tommy's son? 11 A Grandson. 12 Q Grandson. Now, before Peter Jim took over the Louie 13 Tommy trap line he was a member of Peter Alfred's trap 14 line wasn't he? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Yes. And Peter Alfred's trap line was at Buck Flats 17 wasn't it? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And Peter Alfred took over your father's trap line; is 20 that correct? 21 A Yes. 22 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. I'm placing before you — first I'm going 23 to hand to Mr. Grant a document entitled "Application 24 for registration of a trap line". This is a copy of 25 that document -- I don't have the original -- dated 26 March 31, 1945, and the photocopies are of the front 27 and back of the original document. 28 MR. GRANT: You've given me two pages, the first page appears to 29 include two documents or the front and back of one 30 document. The second page is either the back of one 31 of those documents or a separate -- two separate 32 documents. Can you -- 33 MR. MACKENZIE: Perhaps I could explain to you. The first page 34 is the front page of the application showing the 35 description of the boundary and that is typed on a 36 piece of flimsy paper stuck onto the front of the 37 application and then on the bottom that description 38 has been turned over and you can see it when it's 39 turned over it becomes a white blank so that you can 40 see what was underneath that on the application 41 itself. And that's -- so what in fact you have is on 42 the first page that I've handed to you it's the front 43 page of the application, then at the top of the second 44 page I handed to you is the back of the application 45 with the approval by Mr. Mallinson and Mr. Muirhead. 46 At the bottom of the second page I handed to you is an 47 unrelated document entitled "Application for renewal 122 MR. MR. MR. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 MR. 8 MR. 9 10 MR. 11 12 13 14 15 16 MR. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 2 8 MR. 29 30 31 MR. 32 33 34 35 3 6 MR. 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 and registered trap line holder". GRANT: So you're saying below the blank on the first page is part of the first page of the document? MACKENZIE: Yes. GRANT: At the very bottom. Do you have the original or a copy of this document? MACKENZIE: We have a copy. I have this photocopy. GRANT: I mean, I say a copy, a copy of the original document such as Exhibit 8 which was -- MACKENZIE: I'm not sure. I think there may be a copy in Vancouver. Unfortunately we don't have it here, but if we have one -- we've checked in the files at the Fish and Wildlife Branch and this is what we found and if we have one in Vancouver, then I'll certainly get it to you. GRANT: Yes, because I want to -- I think this is -- it's difficult for me to understand what -- this first page how it's set out because it's not an original. I think it may be more difficult for the witness if you're going to put it to her. It's for that reason I'm asking for, if not the original, a copy such as Exhibit 8 for identification in which you have actually a carbon copy of the original document would show that. And the reason I say that is because the top half of page 1 of the photocopy appears to be the end of the page and at the right-hand side it says "over". MACKENZIE: Well, you see I wonder if we could go off the record to discuss this document. Do you have any objection to that? GRANT: Yes. Certainly I have no objection to going off the record. (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION) GRANT: I'm not going to object to you using this photocopy for the purposes of this examination, but I will object to this photocopy going in as an exhibit proper because the way you've described how the original usually is is that the description is on a piece of paper that is either glued or somehow otherwise affixed to the top of the document and you in photocopying or in having it photocopied it was lifted up. I think the actual way the document appears, that is, the original document appears, is relevant and is important. I'm also concerned that the way this photocopy is may be confusing to the witness. She can 123 1 answer that question when you show it to her, but I -- 2 I will agree on the assurance that you will provide us 3 with the original or a carbon copy if you have it or 4 advise us that you don't have it. 5 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, that's agreed. 6 So Mrs. Bazil I'm handing you an application for 7 registration of a trap line dated -- a copy of an 8 application dated March 31, 1945, and the signature at 9 the bottom is Peter Alfred. Is that Peter Alfred's 10 signature at the bottom of that document? 11 MR. GRANT: The name at the bottom is Peter Alfred. You're not 12 sure whether it's his signature. He can ask her that 13 question, but he said the signature is Peter Alfred 14 and then is it Peter Alfred, that's what I'm -- 15 MR. MACKENZIE: 16 Q I'll clarify that question then. There's a name at 17 the bottom of that application that says "Peter 18 Alfred". Is that Peter Alfred's signature? 19 A Yes. 20 MR. MACKENZIE: Subject to Mr. Grant's comments, I would ask 21 that that be marked as an exhibit, the next exhibit. 22 MR. GRANT: Yes. And I — my objection is that this document 23 itself is not satisfactory as an exhibit because of 24 the way it's copied. It's unclear whether we're 25 talking about one or two documents and so I'd ask it 26 be marked for an exhibit for id. so you can proceed. 27 MR. MACKENZIE: Very good. Exhibit 9 for identification, please. 28 And I'll just describe that document for the record. 29 That document at the present time, Exhibit 9 for 30 identification, is a photocopy. It has two pages. 31 The first page appears to be the front page of an 32 application for registration of a trap line. The 33 second page at the top half is what appears to be the 34 reverse of the application for registration of a trap 35 line. 36 MR. GRANT: And with respect to the second page the witness 37 didn't look at the second page. 38 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. The witness has not looked at the second 39 page, and at the bottom of the second page there's a 40 copy of another document which the witness has not 41 identified. 42 MR. GRANT: And I would recommend that at the lunch break you 43 photocopy the second page excluding that second 4 4 document. 45 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. I think we'll just cut the second document 46 at the bottom off. 47 MR. GRANT: Okay. We can agree to that off the record how 124 1 that's done. 2 MR. MACKENZIE: All right. 3 MR. GRANT: And then the two pages should probably be stapled 4 together so -- 5 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. We'll staple them together. 6 7 (EXHIBIT 9 FOR IDENTIFICATION:"Application for 8 registration of a trap line in the name of Peter 9 Alfred) 10 11 MR. MACKENZIE: I'm handing to Mr. Grant a copy of a document 12 entitled "Return of registered trap line holder" dated 13 November 3rd, 1950. 14 MR. GRANT: This is from the same file as Exhibit 8 or 9? 15 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. I'll explain now where that document comes 16 from on the defendant's list of documents. Now, this 17 document that I've handed to Mr. Grant "Return of 18 registered trap line holder" is drawn from the 19 registered trap line file number 0609T006, which is 20 registered in the name of Peter Alfred. And that is a 21 file found in the document number 1276 in the 22 defendant's list of documents. 23 MR. GRANT: That's where Exhibit 9 for identification came from 24 as well? 25 MR. MACKENZIE: That's correct. 26 MR. GRANT: Once again with respect to both Exhibit 9 and this 27 document I will just -- my concern is that I have an 28 opportunity to review the balance of those files 29 either at the noon hour or at the end to take them 30 overnight. 31 MR. MACKENZIE: 32 Q Yes. That's agreeable. 33 Mrs. Bazil, I'm now placing before you a document 34 entitled "Return of registered trap line holder", 35 dated November 3rd 1950. At the bottom is a name 36 Peter Alfred. Is that Peter Alfred's signature? 37 A I can't identify that one. 38 MR. MACKENZIE: Okay. I'd ask that this document be marked 39 Exhibit 10 for identification. The witness has not 40 identified the signature. 41 42 (EXHIBIT 10 FOR IDENTIFICATION: "Return of registered 43 trap line holder dated November 3rd, 1950) 44 45 MR. GRANT: Are you going to ask her questions out of this 4 6 document? 47 MR. MACKENZIE: 125 1 Q Yes. Now, Mrs. Bazil, you testified that after your 2 father stopped trapping that Peter Alfred then began 3 to trap on the territory; is that correct? 4 A Say it again? 5 Q Peter Alfred trapped on the territory after your 6 father finished trapping? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And Peter Alfred was trapping in the Buck Flats area; 9 is that correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Yes. When did -- to rephrase that question, and to 12 your knowledge some years did Peter Alfred not go out 13 onto the trap line? 14 A Just when he start getting sick I guess. 15 Q And would he have been sick in 1949 and 1950? 16 A I can't remember when. 17 Q I see. But some years, as far as you can recall, he 18 was not trapping? 19 A About every year they went up trapping for beavers and 20 they go hunting. 21 Q Yes. I refer you to Exhibit 10 for identification 22 which is before you. You see this document says that 23 1949 and 1950 that apparently Peter Alfred did not 24 trap that year. Do you agree with that? 25 A That's the time they can't get through the trapping 26 area. 27 Q Why's that? 28 A There was "No Trespassing" sign and people get after 29 them to get off the highway. 30 Q Is that in 1949? 31 A Somewhere there. I can't remember what year it was, 32 but I heard that. He told me himself that they can't 33 trap because of that. 34 Q Yes. 35 A And there was catties all over. 36 MR. GRANT: Is there a reverse side to this document number 10? 37 MR. MACKENZIE: Document number 10 for identification? I don't 38 think there is a reverse side, but again the same 39 agreement will apply. We'll get you an original if we 4 0 have it and anything else we have of that document. 41 MR. GRANT: Thank you. 42 MR. MACKENZIE: 43 Q Now, Mrs. Bazil, were you aware that Peter Alfred also 44 had a special firearms licence? 45 A I don't know about that. 46 Q He carried a gun when he went onto the territory when 47 he was trapping didn't he? 126 1 A Yes. 2 MR. MACKENZIE: And you know that a person has to have a gun 3 when they're -- has to have a licence to carry a gun 4 on the territory? 5 MR. GRANT: I object. That's a question of law. 6 MR. MACKENZIE: 7 Q Sorry, were you aware of that? 8 A I don't -- I don't remember all these things. 9 Q Did your father carry a gun when he went trapping? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Now, you testified that your father also had a 12 registered trap line; correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And it was in the Buck Flats area wasn't it? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And he didn't trap up around Houston did he? 17 A Yes. 18 Q He didn't, did he? 19 A Well, he did. We all did, my mother. 20 Q You didn't trap near the town of Houston did you? 21 A Not too close to town. 22 Q No. Your trapping was around Buck Flats; correct? 23 A Buck Flats, but we did trap muskrats around Houston 24 area or out of -- a little ways out of town. 25 Q Yes. And your father told you that he had signed an 26 application for registration of the trap line? 27 A I never -- I never heard that. 28 Q He told you — 29 A He probably did, but I don't remember. 30 Q Did he tell you about the time he went into Smithers 31 to get the application to sign the application? 32 A I don't remember that either. 33 Q Did he tell you about his conversations with the game 34 warden related to the trap line? 35 A I heard about that. Yes. 36 Q And where did he talk to the game warden about the 37 trap line? 38 A It must be in Smithers. 39 Q Do you remember the name of the game warden? 4 0 A No. 41 Q Now, your father couldn't write could he? 42 A No. 43 Q And when he signed documents he'd have to make a mark 44 wouldn't he? 45 A Yes. 46 MR. MACKENZIE: I'm showing you a photocopy of a document dated 47 February 27, 1928. Is that the year that your father 127 1 got his trap line registration in 1928? 2 MR. GRANT: Can I see that? 3 THE WITNESS: I don't — I don't remember exact date, but the 4 only thing he always talked about was the -- the 5 territory was registered, but he never exactly told me 6 what year it was. 7 MR. MACKENZIE: 8 Q You were eight years old in 1928 weren't you? 9 A Yes. 10 MR. MACKENZIE: Okay. I'm going to hand this application to 11 Mr. Grant to look at. There's something -- there's 12 another document attached to it, but I'm just 13 referring the -- Mr. Grant to the trap line 14 application itself. It's a photocopy of the front and 15 back covers of the trap line. There's another 16 document in there which I understand is taken from the 17 file showing the boundaries of the trap line. 18 MR. GRANT: Well, if this other document, this map or what 19 purports to be a map I guess, if it's a separate 2 0 document than the first two pages of what you've given 21 me, I think it is only fair to the witness only to 22 show her the document not to be combining documents. 23 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, I agree. 24 MR. GRANT: Only to give her -- to separate this document apart 25 before you show it to her. 26 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. I'm prepared to do that. I just wanted you 27 to see that other document before I took it off the 28 ones I'm going to put to the witness. 29 MR. GRANT: Okay. 30 MR. MACKENZIE: Now, I'm handing you a photocopy of the front 31 and back pages of the document entitled "Application 32 for registration of a trap line", and the name of the 33 applicant is Moose -- is Jim Mooseskin, and the 34 document is dated January 27, 1928. And I note that 35 in the description there's a reference to Buck Creek. 36 Putting that document before you now, Mrs. Bazil, do 37 you recognize your father's mark at the bottom of that 38 application? 39 MR. GRANT: You're entitled look at the entire document, Mrs. 40 Bazil. 41 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 42 MR. GRANT: And review it and read it over. While she's doing 43 that, do you have again an original or a carbon copy 44 because part of this seems obliterated to me? 45 THE WITNESS: Can't even read it. It's hard to read. 46 MR. GRANT: Can you go off the record for a moment? 47 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 128 1 MR. GRANT: And then we could give the witness a chance to read 2 it. 3 4 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION) 5 6 MR. GRANT: Just for the record we took that break so that Mr. 7 Holland just could read over that document which you 8 put to her, to Mrs. Bazil, because it's very difficult 9 to read. You read it in English? 10 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. 11 MR. GRANT: And as I was in discussion with Mr. Mackenzie on 12 another matter, I had Mr. Holland read it over to her 13 in English. 14 MR. MACKENZIE: 15 Q Now, Mrs. Bazil, that's your father's trap line 16 application? 17 A I haven't seen it before, but as my interpreter read 18 it, that's how my father signs, and the witness on 19 there I know him too. 20 Q Who is that witness? 21 A John Goold. 22 Q And who's he? 23 A He owned a store. He was a storekeeper. He was the 24 fur buyer in Houston at the time. 25 MR. MACKENZIE: I would ask that that application be marked as 26 the next exhibit, Exhibit 10 -- Exhibit 11, I'm sorry. 27 MR. GRANT: Again I'd ask it be marked for identification 28 because I'm concerned about the quality of 29 photocopying and if there's a better copy. 30 MR. MACKENZIE: Fine. 31 32 (EXHIBIT 11 FOR IDENTIFICATION: Photocopy of 33 Mooseskin Jim's application for registration of a trap 34 line, dated January 27th, 1928) 35 36 MR. MACKENZIE: Just to make sure that it's clear what this 37 document is, it's a photocopy of what appears to be 38 Mooseskin Jim's application for registration of a trap 39 line dated January 27th, 1928. 40 MR. GRANT: It's entitled "Application for registration of a trap 41 line". 42 MR. MACKENZIE: 43 Q Yes. It's entitled application for registration of a 44 trap line. 45 Now, Mrs. Bazil, your father, as you testified, 46 was concerned that the game warden had restricted his 47 trap line? 129 1 A Yes. 2 Q And are you aware that there is another trap line in 3 the northern part of the area claimed by your house 4 now, around Houston? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Yes. And do you know that's a white man's trap line? 7 A No, I didn't. 8 Q No. Do you -- did you know that Mr. Rick Bardon, 9 B-a-r-d-o-n has a registered trap line along the 10 northern part of Buck Creek? 11 A Northern part? 12 Q Yes. 13 A I don't know that. 14 Q And are you aware that Mr. Rick Bardon is the owner 15 or -- is the registered owner of a trap line from Buck 16 Creek along the Bulkley River to the Morice River? 17 A No. 18 Q You're not aware of that? 19 A No. 20 Q And I understand you're not aware of it. I take it 21 you're also not aware the number of that trap line is 22 609T007; is that correct? You're not aware of that? 23 A No. 24 MR. MACKENZIE: Okay. 25 MR. GRANT: I would request a copy of that file for review as 26 well, please? 27 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 28 MR. GRANT: This is for, of course, my own review not to review 29 with the witness, but for my own review. 30 MR. MACKENZIE: 31 Q Yes. Now, Mrs. Bazil, who are the knowledgeable 32 people in the house of Wah tah kwets about the 33 McDonnell Lake territory? 34 A I'll ask my interpreter please explain to me. 35 MR. GRANT: Before the interpreter translates, can you clarify 36 what you mean by "the knowledgeable people"? 37 MR. MACKENZIE: Who in the house of Wah tah kwets would have 38 knowledge of the territory, the Wah tah kwet territory 39 near McDonnell Lake? 40 MR. GRANT: Wah tah kwets' territory? 41 MR. MACKENZIE: 42 Q Yes, that's correct? 4 3 A John Namox. 44 Q And you've never been to the McDonnell Lake territory 45 have you? 4 6 A No. 47 Q Who's the knowledgeable person in the House of Wah tah 130 1 kwets about the Wah tah kwets territory around 2 Mooseskin Johnny Lake or Housen Lake, that area? 3 A I don't know that part. 4 Q Who are the knowledgeable people in the House of Wah 5 tah kwets about the Wah tah kwets area around Quick 6 and Round Lake? 7 A Again I'll ask my interpreter. My brother Peter Jim. 8 Q And you haven't been out on the trap line in that 9 territory have you? 10 A No, I go through there once in a while. 11 Q You go through on the highway? 12 A Yes. I been on the area quite a while back. 13 Q When was that? 14 A I'll say about 20 years ago when my uncle was there. 15 Q Your uncle Louie Tommy was there; correct? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And who is the knowledgeable person in the House of 18 Wah tah kwets about the Wah tah kwets' territory near 19 Topley? 20 A Ah k'ot is the one that held that area, but I don't 21 know his English name. It was one of my mother's 22 uncle. 23 Q Ah k'ot. Could we have a spelling on that, please? 2 4 A Ah k'ot. 25 MR. MITCHELL: Number 41. 26 MR. MACKENZIE: 27 Q Thank you. Now, Ah k'ot -- Ah k'ot is a name of a 28 chief in the House of Wah tah kwets; is that correct? 29 A Yes. 30 Q Yes. You testified that Mooseskin Johnny got his name 31 from the Hudson Bay stores; correct? 32 A Yes. 33 Q He used to buy the moose skins from the stores; 34 correct? 35 A Yes. 36 Q Are you also aware that the one of the Wah tah kwets 37 crests came from the Hudson's Bay store from a flag? 38 A I don't remember that either. 39 Q You've never heard that story? 4 0 A No. 41 Q Speaking about the Madeek-Kanoots-Buck Flats area, are 42 you aware that the Carrier-Sekani people claim that 43 area? 44 A Say it again? 45 MR. GRANT: Just a moment. When you say the Carrier-Sekani 46 people, can you be more precise to her as to -- and 47 that they claim the area, I think it's only fair to 131 1 the witness you specifically refer to what you mean 2 when you say they're claiming the area. 3 MR. MACKENZIE: 4 Q I'm speaking about the Buck Flats area. You 5 understand what I'm speaking about? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And are you aware that the Carrier-Sekani nation has 8 filed a comprehensive claim with the federal 9 government claiming ownership of that territory? 10 A I'll ask my interpreter again, please? No, I don't -- 11 I don't hear anything like that. I don't know 12 anything about it. 13 THE INTERPRETER: The witness requests a break. 14 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, would you like to have a break? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 MR. GRANT: We'll go off the record and have a lunch break. 17 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 18 19 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCHEON RECESS) 20 21 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) 22 23 MR. MACKENZIE: 24 Q Now, Mrs. Bazil, you testified that your father held 25 the chief's name Kanoots; is that correct? 26 A Yes. 27 Q Yes. And after him it was Peter Alfred; correct? 28 A Yes. Not after him. There was another lady Sarah 29 Holland. 30 Q Sarah Holland, yes. Was Sarah Holland a member of the 31 House of Madeek? 32 A Yes. 33 Q And when did Sarah Holland die? 34 A It was around '74 or '75. I can't remember exactly. 35 Q And did Sarah have any children? 36 A Yes. 37 Q And what were the names of Sarah's children? 38 A She had three daughters I remember. One was Martha, 39 one was Emily, and one I'm pretty sure is Nancy. I'm 40 not quite sure. Nancy I think. 41 Q Do any of those daughters have chief's names do you 42 know? 43 A No. 44 Q Sorry, they do not have chief's names; is that 45 correct? 4 6 A No. 47 Q Yes. 132 1 A No, they all deceased. 2 Q Yes. All of Martha's daughters are deceased -- I'm 3 sorry, Sarah's daughters are deceased; is that 4 correct? 5 A I think two of them. 6 Q Yes. Who's alive now? 7 A I'm not quite sure. I think the oldest one maybe. 8 Q Who would that be? 9 A Martha I think. 10 Q And what is Martha's name? 11 A Martha Holland. And she was married, I just can't 12 remember her married name. 13 Q Did Martha have any children? 14 A She had two daughters I think. I can't remember their 15 names either. 16 MR. MACKENZIE: Now, Sarah Holland's name does not appear in 17 the Madeek chart does it? 18 MR. GRANT: Which one are you referring to, Exhibit 4? 19 MR. MACKENZIE: 20 Q Exhibit 2 for identification. Yes. I was referring 21 to Exhibit 2 for identification which is the Madeek 22 genealogy and Mr. Grant has it before him now. 23 And who were Sarah Holland's parents? 24 A I can't remember. I think they died before I was -- 25 to remember. 26 Q Now, you have before you Exhibit 2 for identification, 27 the Madeek genealogy. Did you have an opportunity to 28 review that before the commission? 29 A I'll ask interpreter, please. 30 THE INTERPRETER: Can you rephrase that again? 31 MR. MACKENZIE: 32 Q Yes. I'm referring to the Madeek genealogy, Exhibit 2 33 for identification. Did you have an opportunity to 34 review that, Exhibit 2, before this commission? 35 A No. No. 36 Q The first time you saw that Exhibit 2 was Monday 37 morning when you came to the commission; is that 38 correct? 39 A Yes. 40 Q So you don't know whether Sarah Holland's name is on 41 that chart do you? 42 A I'm not sure. 43 Q And Sarah Holland's daughter Martha is a member of the 44 House of Madeek isn't she? 45 A Yes. 46 Q And Martha Holland's two daughters are also members of 47 the House of Madeek aren't they? 133 1 A Yes. 2 MR. GRANT: Could we go off the record for a moment, please? 3 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 4 5 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION) 6 7 MR. MACKENZIE: 8 Q So -- and you are not a member of the House of Madeek 9 are you, Mrs. Bazil? 10 A No. 11 Q Who in the house of Madeek would be knowledgeable 12 about the members of the House of Madeek? 13 A Well, Madeek himself and the chiefs, the members of 14 the house. 15 Q And who is Madeek now? 16 A Madeek hasn't -- is still sitting there, hasn't taken 17 yet. The young fella's in line for it, but the feast 18 hasn't go through yet. 19 Q Yes. George Naziel had the name Madeek? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And he died in December last year didn't he? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And Russel Tiljoe is in line to take the name; is that 24 correct? 25 A Yes. Yes. 2 6 Q And why hasn't that name been taken yet? 27 A They are preparing maybe until summer. They usually 28 prepare for the feast. 29 Q What -- how will they decide who will take the name? 30 A I guess himself. 31 Q Russel Tiljoe will decide? 32 A Point him out. George Naziel will point him out. 33 Q George -- 34 A It's usually done that way. 35 Q I see. George Naziel appointed Russel Tiljoe to be 36 his successor? 37 A Yes. 38 Q And to your knowledge what factors would go into that 39 decision? Why -- 40 A I can't understand. 41 Q Why did George Naziel choose Russel Tiljoe? 42 A Because he was next man that's in line for that name. 43 Q And how do you decide whether you're next in line for 44 that name? 45 A They usually watch the young generation grow up, who 46 is active, and who's got -- who they think that is 47 going to look after the name and the territory. 1 2 Q 3 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 A 9 10 11 12 Q 13 14 A 15 Q 16 17 A 18 19 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 24 A 25 Q 26 27 A 28 29 30 31 32 Q 33 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 38 39 Q 40 41 A 42 Q 43 44 45 A 46 Q 47 A 134 That's who's always chosen and is in line for that. And we were speaking about Kanoots before, and Sarah Holland had that name didn't she? Yes. And then Peter Alfred had it didn't he? Yes. Yes. And who has the name Kanoots now? That one too is just waiting now because Peter Alfred just passed away recently and Freddie Joseph is in line. He's preparing for the feast for the next -- next summer, this summer coming. And how did Peter -- did Peter appoint Fred Joseph to be the next Kanoots? Yes. And why did Fred appoint Peter -- I'm sorry, why did Peter appoint Fred to be the next Kanoots? Because he know he's the -- he's the boy next that he picked out that he can do the things he wants him to do. Now, has Fred Joseph been on the territory? I'm not quite sure yet. No one is holding the name of Kanoots. Does that mean no one is look after the territory now? For the moment, yes, there is nobody there. Now, who owns the territory at Buck Flats, Madeek or Kanoots? It's still -- it's still under Kanoots and Madeek. Both of them they passed away and it's still under where it was before, even they're dead, and then the feast comes, that's when everything is changed, changed hands. And is it necessary to have money to become the next Chief Kanoots to pay for the name? Yes. How much will a person pay for the name Kanoots? This is not actually how much they supposed to spend, is they spend whatever they can spend. Some more, some less. And is it decided how much money Fred Joseph will spend to become Kanoots? No, I don't know. Now, I'm talking about the Buck Flats territory. The last time you went down to that area was after the big fire; correct? Yes. And that was in 1983 wasn't it? Yes. 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 9 A 10 11 12 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 23 Q 24 25 A 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 Q 31 A 32 Q 33 34 A 35 Q 36 37 A 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 42 A 43 Q 44 45 A 46 47 135 That was the summer of 1983 wasn't it? Summer, yes. Yes. And you went with your daughter? Yes. And did she drive or did you drive? Her husband was driving. I see. And how long were you there in the summer of 1983? We just drove along the highway. We didn't stop and stay anywhere. We just drove to the end and we turn around and came back. We didn't get out of the car or anything, just drive around and see the country. You drove along the Buck Creek road? Yes. And that road goes down to Sam Goosley Lake doesn't it? Yes. And there are two bridges on that road? Yeah. Yes. To Buck Flat is two bridge. There are two? They might be more up further. I never been up further. Between Houston and Buck Flats there are two bridges; is that correct? Two big ones. Yes. And the government built those bridges didn't it? I think so. Yes. And that road is paved now isn't it? No, it wasn't when I was up there last. It's got gravel? Gravel road, yes, the last trip I went up there. And there are hydro-electric line -- hydro-electric poles along part of that road are there? The last trip I went there was. Now, you -- we spoke about 1983. Before that you were there in 1977; is that correct? About that year. Yes. About ten years ago, yes? Yes. And that's when you went with your family to Buck Flats; correct? Yes. Yes. And how long were you at the territory during that visit? We stopped at where the house was located at, used to be, and we crossed the fence and we walked over to where the barn was. The roof was caved in already and 1 2 3 4 5 Q 6 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Q 19 20 A 21 22 23 24 Q 25 26 A 27 28 29 Q 30 A 31 32 33 Q 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 39 A 40 41 42 Q 43 A 4 4 MR. GRANT 45 4 6 MR. macke: 4 7 MR. GRANT 136 the roof was still showing, so we went there and we took pictures there and came back to the -- where the big house used to be. We must have been there about half an hour. And after you looked at the Buck Flats house you got back in the car and went back -- Yes. -- to Houston? Yes. Well, somebody came. We crossed the fence. There was fence, but we crossed it. We didn't know it was going to hurt anyone, and the fella that have a house just below it he came after us and ask us what we're doing. And I told him that's where we grew up, my brother and I, we just telling our children where we grew up, that's all we doing. He ask if we were setting traps and I said "No.", and we left right away. He said he owned that territory -- he owned that property? Yes. At the time I told him that my mother and my father we helped them clear the land there. There used to be horse -- we used to make hey for the horse and garden used to be there. And before 1977 when were you on the territory? Were you on the territory in the 1970's? No. I went there after I was married. A year later we just made one trip up there with my husband and my brother. You were married in 1936? Yes. And about two years later I think they -- my brother had set traps and we went with him and we came right back. And that's your brother Peter Jim? Yes. That was the last time I was there. And that was in 1938? Somewhere there. Yes. And how long were you on the territory during that visit? About a week or so. We just went with him when he was checking out his traps. And we were living at Houston at the time. And where did he go to check his traps? Right at the Taneen K'uts Legh, towards Taan deet. : Towards Taan deet. I just didn't get a note of which year that she was referring to. JZIE: 1938. : The one before -- that was the one before -- that's 137 1 the one she was describing before the trip before 2 that? 3 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. Oh, sorry 1983 then 1977 now 1938. 4 MR. GRANT: Okay. 5 MR. MACKENZIE: 6 Q And Taneen K'uts Legh is a hill on the territory; is 7 that correct? 8 A Yeah, the end of the mountain that -- just the end 9 there. That's where he goes across. 10 Q Now, Buck Flats or Ts'un c'os 'aay is at the mouth of 11 Taniits ts'anlii? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Where it flows into Neen lii kwe; correct? 14 A Taaniits c'ek'een s'aay - Taaniits ts'anlii, that's 15 where the house was. 16 Q Yes. And that's where they -- 17 A That's Ts'un c'os 'aay. 18 Q That's where Taniits ts'anlii, that creek, flows into 19 the Buck Creek? 20 A Small -- small creek. Yes. 21 Q Now, where is Taneen K'uts Legh from -- Taneen K'uts 22 Legh, where is that from Buck Flats, what direction? 23 A I'm facing to Houston, it will be on my right-hand 24 side. 25 Q Yes. Now, when you face Houston you face north, 26 right? 27 A I'm facing now this way. Yes. 28 Q Yes? 29 A And Ts'un c'os 'aay is -- the river goes down this way 30 and the mountain is on this side and the house was 31 here, and it's on the right-hand side of me as where 32 I'm sitting. 33 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. Pardon me, I'll try and — 34 MR. GRANT: I just want to be sure that the reporter has all 35 those words. Maybe you can stop for a second. 36 MR. MACKENZIE: I'd like to go off the record, please? 37 38 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION) 39 40 MR. MACKENZIE: 41 Q Okay. Now, this series of questions that I asked you, 42 Mrs. Bazil, it's about your visit to the territory in 43 1938, and you went to the territory with Peter Jim and 44 your brother and he was laying some traps; correct? 45 A Yes. 46 Q And then I asked you where did he go to lay the traps 47 and you said Taneen K'uts Legh? 138 1 A Taneen K'uts Legh, yes. 2 MR. MACKENZIE: Have you got that? 3 MR. GRANT: Second last hill on the affidavit. 4 MR. MACKENZIE: Second last hill on the affidavit. Okay. 5 MR. GRANT: Page four. 6 MR. MACKENZIE: 7 Q Now, I asked you where that hill is from the cabin at 8 Buck Flats and you said facing towards Houston the 9 river goes down; correct? 10 A Right. 11 Q And you're facing north at that time aren't you? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Yes. And when you're facing north this hill is on 14 which side? 15 A My right-hand side. 16 Q Your right-hand side. So therefore it's to the east 17 of the cabin; correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Yes. And how long does it take to get to this hill 20 from the cabin? 21 A I'll say about -- you mean the -- to the end of the 22 line or -- 23 Q Yes. 24 A It takes them about a day walking. 25 Q And what is the meaning of the word, the name for that 26 hill, Taneen K'uts Legh? 27 A It means the end of that mountain. I think it's -- 28 we're putting it's the slope of that mountain that 2 9 going down. 30 Q Yes? 31 A That's what it means, Legh. 32 Q And did that trap line go along a creek? 33 A No. There are small creeks, but I don't remember 34 names for them. We walk over that slope and then go 35 down on the other side and there's little creeks then 36 there, and then we get to Taan deet. 37 MR. MACKENZIE: Taan deet. Now, Taan deet you referred to 38 before. Let's get that cleared up. Do you have a 39 spelling for that? 40 MR. MITCHELL: Taan deet, number 30. 41 MR. MACKENZIE: 42 Q And what's the meaning of that word? 43 A Taan deet means -- it's a swamp, and there's a lake in 44 the middle of that swamp and it's narrow, so that's 45 why it's a narrow lake. That's what it means. 46 Q And the other side of that lake is Namox's territory; 47 correct? 1 A 2 Q 3 4 A 5 Q 6 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 12 A 13 Q 14 15 A 16 Q 17 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 22 Q 23 A 24 Q 25 A 26 Q 27 28 29 A 30 Q 31 32 A 33 Q 34 35 A 36 Q 37 A 38 Q 39 40 A 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 A 45 Q 46 A 47 Q 139 Right. And so Taan deet is east again of the cabin at Buck Flats, right? Yes. Now, when your -- Peter Jim laid the traps, were they laid around in the swamp area and along the creeks? Not at the swamp. Before you get there. So they're laid along the creeks? As we walk there's traps set up all the way. And generally speaking, do they follow the lines of the creeks? No. Crossing creeks. That's what they do. Now, is that the line that your brother Peter Jim set traps along during that visit in 1938? Say it again? Yes. Did Peter Jim set traps towards Taneen K'uts Legh during your visit in 1938? Yes. And did you go along with Peter Jim when he did that? I stayed in Ts'un c'os 'aay. My husband went with him. Your husband Frank Bazil? Yes. You stayed at the cabin; correct? Yes. Did you go out on the trap lines with Peter Jim or your husband at any time during your visit for one week in 1938? No. You stayed at Buck Flats near the cabin the whole time? At the house. Yes. And before 1938, the last time you were on the territory was before you were married? Yes. And when were you married in 1936? In September. September. Were you on the trap line earlier in that year? No. Were you in the territory earlier in that year? Earlier I was. In early 1936? Thirty-five. So in 19 — And in '36 earlier I was there in spring. So you were on the trap line in the winter of 1935 and 1 2 A 3 Q 4 5 A 6 Q 7 8 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 13 14 Q 15 16 A 17 Q 18 19 A 20 21 Q 22 23 A 24 Q 25 A 26 27 Q 28 A 29 30 Q 31 32 A 33 Q 34 35 A 36 Q 37 38 A 39 Q 40 41 42 A 43 Q 44 45 46 A 47 Q 140 the spring of 1936? Yes. Now, that year before you were married, did you go out on the trap lines? Yes. So the last -- we're now in 1986. The last time you went on the trap lines in the territory was 50 years ago; is that correct? Yes. And you've driven on the Morice River Road? We -- I go through there just to -- to go to -- we travel through there going to Owen Lake and Francois Lake, just the highway. You said Owen Lake, O-w-e-n, and that road is a gravel road is it not? Yes. Yes. And are you aware that that's maintained by the Forest Service? There was mine at Owen Lake at that time I remember and that's when the road was put in. And the road goes all the way from Highway 16 down past the Owen Lake to Francois Lake doesn't it? Yes. And that road goes through your territory does it? There's another road you're talking about. This is Morice River Road you're talking about? Yes, that's right? And there's another road goes to Francois Lake what goes through Bob Creek too. Yes, that's right. So you say that the Morice River Road is not in your territory? No. Okay. The Morice River Road is outside your territory? Yes. When you were going on the trap line with your father you never went over to the Morice River Road did you? No. In fact when you were on the trap line with your father you never went over as far as the Morice River at all did you? No. Now, you were speaking about the Buck Creek Road and that road as you mentioned can take you to Goosley Lake in Namox territory, right? Yes. And it can also take you to Parrot Lake can't it? 141 Yes. Yes. And can take you down to Francois Lake can't it? Yes. And your father used that road to get to Buck Flats whenever you went down there didn't he? Yes. And in the early years that was a wagon road wasn't it? Yes. And later it was developed into a gravel road for cars and trucks wasn't it? Yes. And did your father drive a car or truck on that road ever? My father never had a car, but my cousin Peter Alfred he drove a car up there. Yes. And Peter Jim, I take it, drove down there too? Yes. After that they all use cars. Yes. Now, are you -- it's true that Buck Creek Road was in use, that's where the wagon trail was in use before you were born? Yes. And are you aware that the people used that road to get down to Francois Lake? Yes. People call that the Houston-Wistaria Road, did you know that, to go to Wistaria? No, I don't remember that. 29 MR. MACKENZIE: Wistaria is W-i-s-t-a-r-i-a. 30 MR. GRANT: Just -- I'm just -- if you're asking a question like 31 that, when you say "people" I think it's pretty 32 general and you should tell her who you're referring 33 to because it's a pretty broad description. 34 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. Of course. Yes. 35 MR. GRANT: Maybe you can narrow it down to who you're referring 36 to in some more narrow definition. 37 MR. MACKENZIE: 38 Q Yes. Are you aware that white people use the Buck Creek Road to get down into the Francois Lake area? Yes. They drive past your cabin at Buck Flats? Yes. And that was when you were a little girl? Yes. 45 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. Now, are you aware that there were 46 sawmills on the road down past your cabin on the Buck 47 Flats Road, Buck Creek Road? 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 6 A 7 Q 8 9 A 10 Q 11 12 A 13 Q 14 15 A 16 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 21 22 A 23 Q 24 25 A 26 Q 27 28 A 39 40 A 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 A 142 1 MR. GRANT: When? 2 MR. MACKENZIE: When you were a little girl in the 1930's? No. You don't recall sawmills down there? No. Now, talking about the bridges on the road, there are two bridges on the Buck Creek Road aren't there? Yes. And your cabin site at Buck Flats is south of the second bridge isn't it? Yes. Yes. And are you aware that a new bridge was built there, two new bridges were built there in 1970? Yes. Yes. That was -- and those were built by the government as you said, right? That's when the mine started or logging camps start up at Sam Goosley. That's when they fix all those bridges. So the logging trucks use the Buck Creek Road as well? Yes. Yes. Now, when was the last time that you drove down to Owen Lake on the Morice River Forest Road? The same year when we went to Buck Flat to watch where the fire was. Oh, yes, so that -- Fire went across the Morice River so we drove there the next day. Yes, that was -- It was the same year. Yes, that was 1983? Yes. That's right. And when you drive down the Morice River Road you pass the Northland Sawmill don't you? We didn't go that far. I see. We just went as far as the turn-off to Morice Lake Road. Yes. There's a junction. That's where we turned around. There's a large sawmill when you leave Highway 16 -- Yes. -- and go down? Yes. And further along Highway 16 of course you have the town of Houston don't you? 3 Q 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 9 A 10 Q 11 12 A 13 Q 14 15 A 16 Q 17 18 A 19 20 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 25 A 26 27 Q 28 A 29 30 Q 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 36 A 37 Q 38 A 39 40 Q 41 A 42 Q 43 A 44 Q 45 A 46 Q 47 143 1 A Yes. 2 Q Yes. And along the Bulkley River on the south shore 3 as you're driving along you have the C.N.R., Canadian 4 National Railroad, don't you? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Yes. And does that railroad go through your 7 territory? 8 A Yes. The railroad is not crossing my father's 9 territory. It's the other territory. 10 Q I see. 11 A Yes. 12 Q And how far north does your father's territory extend? 13 A I'd say about six miles. 14 Q Six miles from Buck Flats? 15 A Six or seven miles the -- where is his line is the -- 16 where his territory is, that's where the C.N. is. 17 MR. MACKENZIE: I see. How far north from Buck Flats does your 18 father's territory extend? 19 MR. GRANT: From where the cabin is? 20 MR. MACKENZIE: 21 Q Yes. 22 A I can't say exact mile, but the territory was, like I 23 said, was bigger than when they put the line in. From 24 Bob Creek I'll say about three miles, three and a half 2 5 mi1e s. 26 Q Three and a half miles. So your father's territory, 27 this is a Madeek-Kanoots territory; correct? 28 A Yes. 29 Q It doesn't go as far as the Bulkley River? 30 A From the house, yes. 31 Q It doesn't go as far as the Bulkley River does it? 32 A No. 33 Q And it doesn't go as far as Houston does it? 34 A No. 35 Q And it doesn't go as far as the C.N. Railway does it? 36 A No. 37 Q Did you want to have a break, Mrs. Bazil? 38 A Well, it's three o'clock. We might as well. 39 MR. MACKENZIE: Is that all right with you? 40 41 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR AFTERNOON RECESS) 42 4 3 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) 44 45 MR. MACKENZIE: 46 Q So we can go on the record now I guess. 47 Yes. Mrs. Bazil, we were talking about the Buck 144 Flats area, and have you ever seen a map of your father's territory? No, I haven't. No. Have you ever looked at a government map with Buck Creek on it? No. Do you have any government -- have you ever had a government map, purchased one? No. No. Have you ever read a government map? No, I never. All right. So your only knowledge of the territory is what your father told you; is that correct? Yes. And also what you saw when you were -- Yes. -- with him; correct? Yes. Yes. I been all over the area. Yes? Yes. And you've been to K'en kia ben? Yes. Get that word, please? K'en kia ben. That's a lake? Yes. That's near the beaver swamp? Not far from that. Yes. 31 MR. MACKENZIE: It's the second name on the affidavit. 32 MR. GRANT: Paragraph 7, the second name under "Lakes". 33 MR. MACKENZIE: Okay. And what's the meaning of that term K'en kia ben? The only name I know it by is "K'en kia" means "big foot". I guess the lake is a shape of a foot, that's why they call it K'en kia. "K'en kia" means "big foot" and "ben" means "lake". And whose territory is on the other side of that lake? Tommy Stewart. And have you been to Wid'uk ts'anlii? Yes. 44 MR. MACKENZIE: That's the first creek on page 4 of the 45 affidavit. 46 MR. MITCHELL: Twenty-nine. 47 MR. MACKENZIE: 1 2 3 A 4 Q 5 6 A 7 Q 8 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 Q 30 A 34 Q 35 36 A 37 38 39 40 Q 41 A 42 Q 43 A 145 And where is Wid'uk ts'anlii in relation to the Buck Flat cabin if you're facing Houston which is north? Wid'uk ts'anlii is toward Morice River. And that's Peacock Creek, right? Yes. Do you know where Silverthorn Creek is? Yes. Yes. And do you know where Silverthorn Lake it? I never been on that lake. Do you have a name for Silverthorn Lake? I don't think I did. Where is Silverthorn Lake in relation to the cabin at Buck Flats? Quite a ways away. Yes. It's -- which direction is it? I can't remember where that is. I see. I never been on it, so I don't know exactly where it is . Oh, yes I understand. Do you know where Lartet -- Lartet Creek is, L-a-r-t-e-t? No. Do you know where Coggan Creek is, C-o-g-g-a-n? No. 25 MR. MACKENZIE: Have you ever heard of Campbell Brook? 26 MR. GRANT: What was the creek before Campbell Brook? 27 MR. MACKENZIE:. Coggan, C-o-g-g-a-n. Have you heard of Hoist Brook, H-o-l-s-t? No. Have you heard of Mitchell Creek? No. And you testified that you had been to the waterfall at Neen lii; correct? Yes. What's the meaning of Neen lii? It means waterfalls. Yes. And what's the meaning of Neen lii kwe? Neen lii kwe, it's the river coming from the falls. Okay. Have you got those? That's Buck Creek; correct? Yes. And Mr. Grant showed you a photograph taken at the falls didn't he? Yes. And that photograph you said was a picture of your brother and Peter Alfred; correct? 1 Q 2 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 Q 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 20 Q 21 22 A 23 Q 24 A 28 Q 29 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 Q 34 35 A 36 Q 37 A 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 42 A 43 Q 44 45 A 46 Q 47 146 1 A Yes. 2 Q And that's your brother Peter Jim? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And Peter Alfred? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And Peter Alfred was the previous Kanoots; correct? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And you knew Peter Alfred quite well didn't you? 9 A Yes. 10 Q When was the last time you saw Peter Alfred? 11 A About two weeks before he died. 12 Q Oh, I see. And do you recall that that photograph was 13 taken during a trip that Peter Alfred and your brother 14 Peter Jim made to the territory? 15 A Yes. 16 MR. MACKENZIE: And when was that trip? 17 MR. GRANT: That's Exhibit 5 you're referring too? 18 MR. MACKENZIE: 19 Q Yes. I'm referring to the photograph Exhibit 5, and 20 you understand that's the photograph that Mr. Grant 21 showed you? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Yes. And when was that trip that they took together? 24 A I can't remember what year. I don't recall. 25 Q And which -- there are two people in that photograph. 26 Looking at the photograph, there's a person on the 27 right-hand side and there's a person on the left-hand 28 side, and which of those people is Peter Jim, your 29 brother? 30 A The way I'm looking at it on my right-hand side is my 31 brother Peter Jim. 32 Q Yes. Thank you. So the other person is Peter Alfred; 33 is that correct? 34 A Yes. 35 Q Now, there's a hill on your territory called Cunyaa 36 t'aan Wedel taan, and that's the last hill on the 37 paragraph. Do you know that hill? 38 A Yes. 39 Q What's the meaning of that? 4 0 A Cunyaa t' aan Wedel taan means -- I don't know the 41 English name for the plant. It's -- what kind of 42 plant, just like ferns, but they got big leaves and 43 they bloom in the month of May like a big white 44 flowers on top of them and that's the only place that 45 stuff grows in a big area. This is what they call it 46 by, Cunyaa. Cunyaa means that's where it grows. 47 MR. GRANT: Can we go off the record for a second? 147 1 2 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION) 3 4 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. We were talking about Cunyaa t' aan Wedel 5 taan, and perhaps Mr. Holland you could tell us what 6 the meaning of that is in English? 7 THE INTERPRETER: I believe — I may be wrong, but I think it's 8 Indian Halibore. 9 MR. GRANT: That's the name of the flower that's referred to in 10 that name; is that right? 11 THE INTERPRETER: Yeah, the plant itself. 12 MR. MACKENZIE: 13 Q And who gave that name to the hill, Mrs. Bazil? 14 A I don't know who gave the name, but it was called that 15 as I remember. It's always called that, anybody walk 16 through there. 17 Q Now, there's another lake on the territory Whuus 18 ts'anlii. You know that lake? 19 A Whuus ts'anlii. Yes. 20 Q Do you have that name? The third name under "Lakes". 21 What is the meaning of that name? 22 A It means the creek coming from the ferns, come through 23 the ferns. "Whuus" means "ferns", "ts'anlii" means 24 "creek". 25 Q So that's the name of a creek? 26 A Yes. 27 Q And where is that creek in relation to Buck Flats 28 cabin when you're looking north to Houston? 29 A It's -- this picture isn't like this. 30 MR. MACKENZIE: Just hang on now. You're now referring to the 31 picture which is -- 32 MR. GRANT: Exhibit 3. 33 MR. MACKENZIE: 34 Q Which is Exhibit 3? 35 A Towards -- it's towards Houston, this one here, 36 it's -- I'm facing the north, so Houston is in front 37 of me. 38 Q Yes, that's correct. 39 A And then that's where you're going to Houston -- 40 Q Yes. 41 A -- past Bob Creek and on top of the hill -- 42 Q Yes. 43 A -- there's a trail turn-off to the left. 44 Q To the left which is going west; correct? 45 A Yes. 46 Q Yes. 47 A And that's where the lake is. There's two little 148 1 lakes, small ones. 2 Q So you leave the road just near Bob Creek and you go 3 west -- 4 A Past Bob Creek towards where Houston is. 5 MR. GRANT: I'm not objecting to your notion of directions, but 6 of course these creeks we're talking about general 7 directions, not specifics because these creeks may go 8 not directly north, they may waver and it may be a 9 specific point in the creek, so when you're saying or 10 you're suggesting the witness to go west or north or 11 east, it's generally in a westerly direction. 12 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 13 MR. GRANT: And we're not — 14 MR. MACKENZIE: 15 Q So what -- what is the name of the lake, the little 16 lakes that -- near that creek Whuus ts'anlii? 17 A That lake -- there's two lakes beside one another. I 18 forgot the name both of them, but the creek is coming 19 between those two lakes and that's what it's called, 20 Whuus ts'anlii, and I remember the whole area they 21 call it Whuus ts'anlii. 22 Q Now, what is Wid'uk C'es? 23 A Wid'uk — 24 MR. MACKENZIE: — C'es. 25 MR. GRANT: Which one are you referring to on the list? 26 MR. MACKENZIE: I'm referring to W-i-d-e-k- C-'-e-s. 27 MR. GRANT: Are you looking at the affidavit? 28 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 29 MR. GRANT: Could you just — what is it under just so that 30 the — the first hill? 31 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 32 MR. GRANT: Can you just pronounce that for her? 33 THE INTERPRETER: Wid'uk C'es. 34 MR. MACKENZIE: 35 Q Beg your pardon, Wid'uk C'es? 36 A I'm not familiar with that name. 37 Q Okay. What's that name mean? 38 A "Wid'uk", that I know, it's the little hill. That's 39 that little hill is below Dzel teel towards -- past 40 Houston towards Morice River. That's what you asked 41 earlier, that Wid'uk ts'anlii, that's the hill on top 42 of that is called Wid'uk ts'anlii, Wid'uk, little, 43 small mountain. 44 Q You haven't been up there have you? 45 A No. 46 Q And what is Niit k'ay coo? 47 A Niit k'ay coo, yes. 149 1 Q What is that? 2 A It's three little hills. It's inside my father's 3 territory. There's three little hills, one big one 4 and another one that they call it middle one, and one 5 that's a baby one. It's three of them. They look 6 alike. That's why Niit k'ay coo, it's a big one, K'e 7 k'us nii k'ay is the middle one, and Niit k'ay yes is 8 the smaller one. 9 Q And where are those hills in relation to Buck Flats 10 cabin when you're looking north to Houston? 11 A That picture -- you see picture where the house was, 12 one is right -- right beside, I'll say about a mile. 13 You can see it from the house right in front. 14 Q It's quite close to Buck Flats? 15 A Yeah, they're close. And then another one down 16 towards Houston. There's two more the same kind. 17 MR. GRANT: Just before you go on, the three hills she named 18 were the second third and fourth hill on the page 4 of 19 the affidavit, and the second hill she -- I believe 20 she said K'e k'us nii k'ay; is that right? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 MR. GRANT: Yes. So the second hill — 23 THE WITNESS: K'e k'us nii k'ay. It's the middle one. 24 MR. MACKENZIE: We should go off the record if you want to 25 discuss the names. 26 MR. GRANT: I'm not — I want — I just want to put this on the 27 record for the reporter. In other words, there's 28 those three hills, and -- but the second one she 29 reversed the name from what is on the affidavit. In 30 other words, she put the second word first. 31 MR. MACKENZIE: 32 Q Okay. So Wid'uk ts'anlii is not on your father's 33 territory is it? 34 A Not quite. 35 Q And Wid'uk C'es is not on your father's territory is 36 it? 37 A Not quite. Close by. 38 MR. GRANT: Go off the record for a moment, please? 39 MR. MACKENZIE: Off the record, please? 40 41 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION) 42 43 MR. MACKENZIE: 44 Q On the record. Okay. Nii k'ay -- okay. You referred 45 to Nii k'ay k'ek'us didn't you? 46 A Yes. 47 Q Yes. And that's the — that's the medium hill? 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 Q 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 MR. GRANT 11 12 MR. macke: 13 Q 14 A 15 16 Q 17 A 18 19 20 Q 21 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 28 Q 29 A 30 31 32 Q 33 34 A 35 Q 36 37 A 38 39 Q 40 41 42 A 43 44 45 46 47 Q 150 K'ek'us is the medium. Yes. And that's not on your father's territory? It is. Yes. And Niit k'ay yes is the small hill; correct? Yes. And that's not on your father's territory? It is. Yes. Now, Tsee dil k'un', do you know that? Tsee dil k'un', is that what it is? : Can you pronounce it? Is this the one on the list of hills you're referring to? JZIE: Yes. Tsee dil k'un'. No, it's outside of my father's territory. Okay. Now, what is the meaning of that word? Well, if you come to Houston you'll see the mountain above Houston. The rock is all red, and that's what it means, red mountain. Okay. The next Taaneen K'uts, that's on your father's territory? Yes, half of it. Half of it? Half of that. Half of that hill? Yes, about half I think. It's -- that's the part that they use for territory boundary like. What's the meaning of that name? Taaneen K'uts -- Lt'sinii yes, it's -- I can't describe that either. I don't understand what it means. Lt'sinii yes. Now, when you're standing at Buck Flats looking north to Houston where is Taaneen -- Lt'sinii yes. It's behind me. Taaneen K'uts is behind you when you're standing at Buck Flats? This is Taaneen K'uts on this side. Lt'sinii yes is this side. Yes. Okay. We'll go over that again if you don't mind. And what is Lt'sinii yes? What type of feature is that? Lt'sinii yes is just -- it's just like a mountain, but it's a little high. It's round. When you look at it from -- from -- coming from Houston going up towards Buck Flat you'll see it in front of you. It's round and it's quite high. So it's south of Buck Flats is it? 151 1 A Yes. 2 MR. GRANT: Just for the record there I think you were referring 3 to Taaneen K'uts, which is the sixth one down on the 4 list of hills. 5 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 6 MR. GRANT: And in response the witness referred to Lt'sinii 7 yes, which is the first one under the list of 8 "Ridges". I'm only saying that because I think you 9 may have been thinking you were talking about the same 10 thing and you weren't. 11 MR. MACKENZIE: 12 Q Yes. Lt'sinii yes is the ridge south of Buck Flats ; 13 is that correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And whose territory is on the other side of that 16 ridge? 17 A Namox. 18 Q Now, where is Taaneen K'uts? 19 A Taaneen K'uts, that's what we look at on the picture 20 there. 21 Q Yes. Okay. Have you got Taaneen K'uts? And 22 that's -- that's east of Buck Flats; correct? 23 A Yes. 24 Q So that's -- Taaneen K'uts is the ridge running from 25 north to south? 26 A Yes. 27 Q Now, what is Taaneen K'uts Legh? 28 A That's the end of that mountain. 29 Q And the meaning of that word is the end of the 30 mountain; correct? 31 A Yes. 32 Q And do you know where Parrot Lake is? 33 A Parrot Lake, it's -- that's the one I don't know 34 exactly where it's at. 35 MR. MACKENZIE: Do you know a lake called the — I'm writing 36 the name of this lake down. 37 MR. GRANT: Is this a new form of examination? You don't need 38 interrogatories. 39 MR. MACKENZIE: I'm giving that name to Mr. Holland so that he 40 can pronounce it on my behalf and ask you where it is. 41 MR. GRANT: This is a lake is it? 42 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 43 THE INTERPRETER: Is that two l's, "d-e-1-1". 44 MR. MACKENZIE: Dek'ay tl'enlii? 45 THE INTERPRETER: Dek'ay tl'enlii. 46 THE WITNESS: Dek'ay tl'enlii. Dek'ay tl'enlii. That's below 47 Cunyaa T' aan Wedel taan. It's in Thomas George's for 152 1 territory. "Dek'ay" means "trout". I didn't know 2 that name was Poplar Lake. 3 MR. MACKENZIE: 4 Q Sorry, what did you say? 5 A I didn't know the lake, the first name you mentioned 6 in English, I didn't know that name, that lake you're 7 talking about. It's Dek'ay tl'enlii they call it. 8 Q And do you know the creek Dek'aaz tl'enlii? 9 A No. 10 MR. GRANT: That should be given to the reporter for the record 11 because the question refers to that lake, just that 12 she has the spelling. 13 MR. MACKENZIE: 14 Q Did you get the name of the other lake that I asked? 15 Now, in your affidavit you said that you were a 16 hereditary chief, right? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And how were you chosen to become a hereditary chief? 19 A My uncles that died they all had names and it's going 20 generation to generation and my son is in line 21 one, so one of them is. 22 Q So you've got the name Guhe'? 23 A I still have that name. 24 Q Yes. Have you had any other chiefly names? 25 A No. 26 Q Your mother had that name before you? 27 A Yes. 28 Q Now, okay, Mr. -- okay. Exhibit 4 for identification 29 was your affidavit and could you place the affidavit 30 please, Exhibit 4 for identification, before the 31 witness. Yes. You have Exhibit 4 now before you? 32 Yes? And that's your affidavit; correct? 33 A Yes. 34 Q And you swore that that affidavit was true? 35 A Yes. 36 Q And paragraph 5 of that affidavit contains a 37 description of the boundary doesn't it? 38 A Yes. 39 MR. MACKENZIE: And did someone speak to you about preparing 40 this description of the boundary before this 41 commission? 42 MR. GRANT: I'm not going to allow you to go into 43 solicitor-client -- 44 MR. MACKENZIE: Thank you. 45 MR. GRANT: — discussions. 46 THE WITNESS: I didn't understand what you said. 47 MR. MACKENZIE: 153 1 Q Did you speak to someone other than Mr. Grant about 2 the description of this territory set out in the 3 affidavit? 4 A I'll ask my interpreter, please. I still don't 5 understand. Yes. 6 MR. GRANT: Do you want to translate what he said to you in 7 Wet'suwet'en just for the record? 8 THE INTERPRETER: She just asked me "Do I answer this in my own 9 language or in English?", and also she said that "He 10 helped me himself.", pointing at the lawyer. 11 MR. MACKENZIE: I see. Yes. We'll go off the record now to 12 change the tape. 13 14 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION) 15 16 MR. MACKENZIE: 17 Q I'm looking at page 3 on Exhibit 4 and you understand 18 that that boundary description describes the 19 Madeek-Kanoots territory? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And that description is true as far as you're 22 concerned? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And have you read that description? 25 A Yes. 26 Q And that description says that the territory goes 27 along the Bulkley River; is that true? 28 A Buck River, not Bulkley River. 29 MR. MACKENZIE: I see. 30 MR. GRANT: Where -- where are you referring to? 31 MR. MACKENZIE: 32 Q I'm referring to the top sentence on page 3. 33 So the boundary does not go along the south bank 34 of the Bulkley River does it? 35 A No, it's the Buck River. 36 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. That's correct. 37 MR. GRANT: I'd like the interpreter — I'd like the witness to 38 have an opportunity to read those first three lines 39 before you answer the question. 40 THE INTERPRETER: Do you want me to translate that to her? 41 THE WITNESS: By reading some of it I can understand. 42 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. We're on the record now, and Mr. Grant 43 asked that Mrs. Bazil read the first three lines on 44 page 3 of Exhibit 4, and Mrs. Bazil says she is having 45 a little difficulty understanding that, and I suggest 46 to Mr. Grant that there's no requirement for her to 47 read that to answer my question. 1 MR 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 MR 11 12 MR 13 MR 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 154 GRANT: Well, you referred to the three lines. You asked her a question, but you referred to the three lines on that and I just think that if you refer to it that she has an -- that she be given -- she did not read it before she answered your question. If you're referring to a description which you just put to her and then asking if it's right or wrong, I think it's important that she have the opportunity to read it. That's all I'm saying. MACKENZIE: Yes, I agree, and I think you'll recall she said she had read it. GRANT: She had read it before. MACKENZIE: Q Yes. And she swore it was true. Now, further on in the description at the top of page 3, Exhibit 4, at the sixth line from the bottom it says the boundary goes from Morice Mountain down the west -- west down the slope to meet the Wet'sen kwe, Morice River, at a point opposite the mouth of C'el tay toostaan kwe, Houston Tommy Creek. From here it goes north along the east bank of Wet'sen kwe to the starting point. Now, your territory doesn't include the Morice River does it? It doesn't go to the Morice River does it? So that description is incorrect, right? And in your evidence today you've also told me that Wid'uk ts'anlii, which is under "Creeks" on page 4 of Exhibit 4, Wid'uk ts'anlii, Peacock Creek, is not in your territory is it? A It's outside. Q Yes. And Wid'uk C'es is also outside your territory? A Yes. Q And Tsee dil k'un' is also outside your territory? A It's inside. Dzel teel k'un, that's inside the territory. Q Are you missing these words now? Tsee dil k'un' is red mountain; correct? A Below the mountain. Like it's -- the mountain's going up, but it's below it. That's called Dzel teel k'un. Q Yes. Okay. We're not talking about that, if I may -- if I may say that. We're talking about Tsee dil k'un' the red mountain, correct, near Houston? A Oh, Tsee dil k'un'. A No. Q No. A No. Q No. A Yes Q Yes 155 1 Q Yes. 2 A Yeah, that's outside. 3 MR. MACKENZIE: That's outside your territory? 4 MR. GRANT: Well, just a moment. She said -- when you said the 5 word "Tsee dil k'un'", she said that is below the 6 mountain and that's -- 7 THE WITNESS: No, I thought he said Dzel teel k'un, but he's 8 talking about Tsee dil k'un'. 9 MR. GRANT: Yes. I want for sure, and if necessary to go off 10 the record, I want you to have the spellings of those 11 two names if you can, Mr. Mitchell, before we go any 12 further. 13 Can you go off the record for a moment? 14 15 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION) 16 17 MR. MACKENZIE: 18 Q Okay. Can we go back on the record? Thank you for 19 clearing that up. I'll see if I can clear it up 20 myself a little bit more. Thank you. We -- I did not 21 pronounce the name correctly and I'm going to ask that 22 question again. 23 Mrs. Bazil, Tsee dil k'un' is red mountain near 24 Houston; correct? 25 A Yes. 26 Q And that's not in the territory, is it? 27 A No. 28 Q But it appears on page 4 of Exhibit 4; correct? 29 A Yes. 30 Q Yes. So the affidavit is incorrect when it includes 31 those sites which are not in the territory, right? 32 A Yes. 33 MR. MACKENZIE: Okay. That's all I have to say now. 34 35 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO NOVEMBER 26, 1987) 36 37 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 38 a true and accurate transcript of the 39 proceedings herein transcribed to the 40 best of my skill and ability. 41 42 43 Tanita S. French 44 Official Reporter 45 46 47 156 1 2 November 26, 1987 3 Smithers, B.C. 4 5 LUCY BAZIL, Witness, Previously sworn; 6 GEORGE HOLLAND, Interpreter, Previously sworn; 7 8 MR. GRANT: Before you start, Mr. Mitchell did express some 9 concern regarding getting the spellings of the words 10 and I've encouraged him, and when necessary the court 11 reporter, to interject. It's probably easier for Mr. 12 Mitchell to interject than the court reporter, but to 13 stop it when a lot of Wet'suwet'en words are given 14 either by the lawyers or by the interpreter so that we 15 can endeavour to have a correct transcript with the 16 correct spellings. I think late yesterday was an 17 example of where this different -- very different 18 words that sound the same, and it's hard for the 19 reporter to get them. And I would encourage this of 20 all counsel, including myself, to encourage that 21 practise and Mr. Mitchell can interrupt. 22 MR. MACKENZIE: 23 Q Very good. So let's start Mr. Mitchell off. Mrs. 24 Bazil, yesterday you spoke about Taan deet didn't you? 25 A Yes. 26 Q And that's a lake east of Buck Flats; correct? 27 A Yes. 28 Q Got the spelling for that? And John Namox is on the 29 other side of Taan deet; correct? 30 A Yes. 31 Q And north of John Namox east of Buck Creek is Wah tah 32 kwets; correct? 33 A Yes. 34 Q Okay. And who in Wah tah kwets holds that territory? 35 A I understand it was Ah k'ot. 36 Q And who is the person who holds the name Ah k'ot? 37 A Right now it's hold by Sarah Tait's grand-daughter. I 38 don't know her name, a young girl. 39 Q Have we got the spelling for that? And yesterday we 40 also spoke about your brother Peter Jim. He holds the 41 registered trap line at Quick doesn't he? 42 A Yes. 43 Q And your son Roger Bazil is a member of a registered 44 trap line near McDonnell Lake too isn't he? 45 A Yes. 46 Q And John Namox is the registered owner of that trap 47 line; correct? 1 A 2 Q 3 4 A 5 Q 6 7 A 8 Q 9 10 A 11 Q 12 13 A 14 Q 15 16 A 17 Q 18 19 A 20 Q 21 22 A 23 Q 24 25 26 27 A 28 Q 29 30 A 31 Q 32 33 34 A 35 Q 36 37 38 A 39 Q 40 41 42 A 43 Q 44 45 A 46 Q 47 157 Yes. Now, yesterday you spoke about your visit to the Ts'un c'os 'aay in 1983 didn't you? Yes. Do you have the spelling for that? And you also had a brief visit about 1977 didn't you? Yes. And at that time you saw that there were many fences and "No Trespassing" signs along the road didn't you? Yes. And you know that several people have private property along that road don't you? Yes. Yes. Now, Taniits ts'anlii is where your father's cabin was isn't it? Yes. And Neen lii, the waterfall, is south of that point isn't it? Yes. And Neen lii, the waterfall, is about eight miles south of your father's cabin; is that correct? Yes. Yes. Now, between your father's cabin and the waterfall there is a lot known as lot 6771, and the present owner of that lot is Mr. Carl Holenstin, H-o-l-e-n-s-t-i-n. Do you know Mr. Holenstin? No. Mr. Holenstin became the registered owner of that lot in August 1980. Were you aware of that? No. Now, that lot was originally granted by the province of British Columbia to a private owner in 1929. Were you aware of that? No. No. And as far as you know Carl Holenstin didn't seek permission from Madeek-Kanoots to buy that property did he? I don't think so. I never heard of it. Now, just next to Mr. Holenstin's lot is lot 6420, that's the next one north, and it's owned at present by Mr. and Mrs. Farris. Do you know them? No. No. They became registered owners of that lot in August 1975. Were you aware of that? No. And they did not seek permission of Madeek-Kanoots to purchase that property did they? 158 1 A No. 2 Q That lot 6420 was originally granted by the Crown to a 3 private owner in 1919. You weren't aware of that were 4 you? 5 A Well, there was -- all the properties I seen at the 6 time I grew up there, there was lot of properties, old 7 houses, people left it already. It's been used, but 8 it's -- people left already. And earlier I said 9 there's only two families that I remember was still 10 there, as I remember, was Dick Hayes towards Houston, 11 and then Lapelles. That's the only two families I 12 remember, but there was many houses and all fence all 13 rotten down all along the river. I can't count them, 14 there was quite a few, but I don't remember the names. 15 There was been used already as I remember. 16 MR. GRANT: I think to be fair to the witness if you're asking 17 her if she knew about a Crown grant in 1919 or 1928, 18 it is only fair to give the witness the name of the 19 person because she has given the name of two people 20 already. That's the only -- you've done that with 21 respect to the recent purchases, but not with respect 22 to the original ones. 23 MR. MACKENZIE: 24 Q Okay. You don't know the names of people who own 25 property along Buck Creek Road except for Mr. Hayes 26 and Lapelle do you? 27 A I seen them. 28 Q Yes? 29 A Those two families I seen them. 30 Q Yes. That's right. 31 A My father used to trade with them with milk, butter, 32 and things like that. 33 Q Yes. 34 A And he even help them clear lands and bring up hay. 35 He helps them, and we all there with him. And there's 36 some names, I remember my mother used to mention 37 names, was one -- one place above us. There was a 38 bridge going across. There was a -- it's been a farm, 39 and his house was still there, and he said used to be 40 Alec McKay's. And there was two McKay's. I guess 41 there was two brothers, one was below us and one was 42 above us. That's the name I remember that my mother 43 mentioned. And as you go by this is Alec McKay's. 44 They call the place "McKay's place". 45 Q And Mr. McKay owned that property? 46 A He did at the time, but he wasn't there when I 47 remember it. 159 1 Q Yes. Now, between Neen lii and Taniits ts'anlii there 2 are approximately six district lots that were surveyed 3 in 1916. Now, were you aware of the surveys of those 4 lots? 5 A I didn't -- I didn't see the surveys, but there was 6 all along that area being used. 7 Q Yes. 8 A Yes. 9 Q And the surveyors didn't seek permission from 10 Madeek-Kanoots did they? 11 A I don't think so. I don't know about that. 12 Q Now, from your father's cabin north to the bridge, and 13 there is a bridge across the creek just north of your 14 father's cabin, two or three miles north? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Yes. There are four district lots, lot 5208, 5207, 17 5203 and 5202. They were surveyed in 1913 and 1916, 18 and were you aware of the details of those surveys? 19 A I didn't know nothing -- 2 0 MR. GRANT: What do you mean? 21 THE WITNESS: -- about the surveys, but there was people along 22 there. 23 MR. GRANT: Just -- just a moment. I -- two points, and I'm 24 going to start to object more if you're continuing 25 this approach. Number one is, is that if you intend 26 to -- if you are giving evidence which is in this last 27 series of questions you've been doing, you've been 28 giving extensive evidence as to dates of surveys, 29 passes of property and those types of things, then if 30 you want to leave yourself -- if you intend to give 31 evidence, that's fine. We can enter into a 32 cross-examination of yourself, but I object to you 33 setting out evidence endeavouring to -- putting out a 34 series of facts as evidence to this witness and 35 then -- I think that the formulation of your questions 36 is wrong, and what I'm saying is, is that you give 37 four to five statements of fact, and then you ask the 38 witness if they know about one of those statements of 39 fact. I don't object to you asking the witness if 40 they know if there was a survey done or something like 41 that, but I object to you setting out a whole series 42 of facts and then asking them only about one of the 43 facts, the witness. 44 And secondly, I would -- there was the -- the 45 framing up of that last question was objectionable and 46 you said -- I think you asked, if I recall correctly, 47 what were the details of the survey. I don't know 160 1 what you mean, and I don't know how the witness can 2 answer what you mean by "details of the survey". You 3 may mean where they walked, you may mean many things, 4 Mr. Mackenzie, but I think you should be more precise 5 with what you mean in fairness to the witness. 6 MR. MACKENZIE: Well, Mr. Grant, that's the purpose of these 7 questions, as you know. We're going to be proving 8 this information and as you know we're giving the 9 witness a chance to indicate whether she's aware of 10 any of these things, and whatever she understands by 11 the word "detail" she can answer, and that's all that 12 I'm asking, is whether she's aware of these things. 13 And if you want me to go through each lot, then I'd be 14 happy to do so, but I'm trying to assist you and 15 expedite the progress of the commission to get through 16 a lot of material that may not be necessary to go 17 through each fact in detail. 18 MR. GRANT: No, I'm not — I understand that. And what you do 19 though is you give a whole series of facts and then 20 only ask her about one fact. The fact that you want 21 to ask her about is the fact you should put forward. 22 MR. MACKENZIE: 23 Q Okay. Let's try and do it then. I'll see if I can -- 24 I'll see if I can put the information in the way that 25 will enable the commission to proceed and to respond 26 to your objections. 27 Now, Mrs. Bazil, just north of lot 6420 there is a 28 district lot number 6419. Are you aware of that 29 district lot? 30 A Numbers I can't recall that. 31 Q You're not aware of the numbers of the district lots? 32 A No. No. 33 Q No. I'm instructed that Mr. and Mrs. Robinson own 34 that district lot now. Do you know them? 35 A No. 36 Q No. I'm instructed that they purchased that in 37 September 1977. Were you aware of that? 38 A No. 39 Q And they didn't seek permission, to your knowledge, 40 from Madeek-Kanoots did they? 41 A No. 42 Q Now, that lot 6419 I'm instructed was granted by the 43 Crown in 1959 to a private purchaser. Were you aware 44 of that Crown grant? 45 A No. 4 6 Q No. And to your knowledge the government didn't seek 47 the permission of Madeek-Kanoots to grant that lot 161 1 6419 did they? 2 A No. I don't know anything about that. 3 MR. MACKENZIE: Well, Mr. Grant, I'm going to ask a question 4 now and I'm going to invite you to consider it as a 5 way of expediting this section of the 6 cross-examination. 7 Would it be fair to say, Mrs. Bazil, that you do 8 not have knowledge of the purchases of private 9 property along Buck Creek by people from the 10 provincial government and from other owners of the 11 territory? 12 MR. GRANT: Just before — 13 THE WITNESS: I don't quite — 14 MR. GRANT: Just wait a minute, Mrs. Bazil. Don't answer right 15 away, please. In what period? 16 MR. MACKENZIE: The period to which I'm referring is the period 17 from the time of the first Crown grant -- correction, 18 from the first surveys in 1913 to the present day. 19 MR. GRANT: Okay. Before you answer that question, Mrs. Bazil, 20 I don't object to you using that type of framework, 21 but what I do think is that the way you framed it up 22 is it's about three -- I think you should break it up 23 into about three to four questions. You've combined 24 surveys from 1913 -- or from 1913 to the present, 25 that's one thing, but you've also combined purchases 26 of private property from the Provincial Crown or from 27 private owners, and those are two separate things. 28 And I also think to be fair to the witness you 29 would -- it would be reasonable for you to break it up 30 into time periods which encompass parts of her life 31 such as until say 1936 or 1937 when she was growing up 32 there and then after that. That's all I'm suggesting. 33 Other than that I understand you're trying to 34 expedite, but I don't think it's fair to give the 35 witness what in effect is about two to three questions 36 in one. That's my only concern. 37 MR. MACKENZIE: 38 Q Thank you. Now, Mrs. Bazil, I'll rephrase that 39 question. You've agreed with me that you're not 40 familiar with the numbers of the district lots along 41 Buck Creek; is that correct? 42 A Yes. I don't know any of them. 43 Q And would you agree with me also that you do not know 44 any of the people who presently own land along Buck 45 Creek? 4 6 A Today you mean? 47 Q Yes. 162 1 A No. None of them I know. 2 Q And would it be also fair to say that, to your 3 knowledge, none of the people who presently own land 4 along Buck Creek sought permission from Madeek-Kanoots 5 to purchase that land? 6 A I don't know nothing about that either. 7 Q Now, Mrs. Bazil, you were on the area of your father's 8 cabin from about the time -- from about 1920 to about 9 1936; is that correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Each year while you were growing up, yes? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And at that time it's fair to say you weren't aware of 14 the numbers of the district lots along the Buck Creek 15 were you? 16 A Well, actually the truth I never been to school, as I 17 said earlier, and things like that I never look into 18 it because I don't know anything about numbers. 19 Q I understand. And during those years that you were 20 growing up at your father's cabin in that area, is it 21 fair to say that you did not know any details of 22 the -- I'm sorry, I'll rephrase that question. 23 During the time that you were growing up near Buck 24 Flats, you never saw any documents relating to grants 25 by the Provincial Crown of land to private owners 26 along the creek did you? 27 A No. 28 Q And is it fair to say also that during the time you 29 were on the territory that people who purchased land 30 along Buck Creek from the government didn't come to 31 your father for permission is that true? 32 A Yes. 33 MR. MACKENZIE: So they didn't seek permission from your father 34 did they? 35 MR. GRANT: Well, just a moment. I think here you should, if 36 you're referring to specific persons -- you've now 37 described that she -- she doesn't know who owned -- 38 who purchased land. She doesn't know who the crown 39 granted it to and now you say these people who she 40 doesn't know who they are didn't come to her father. 41 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 42 MR. GRANT: I think — I think that that's an impossible 43 question for her to answer. She -- 44 MR. MACKENZIE: Well, that's — 45 MR. GRANT: If you tell her who you're referring to then she can 4 6 tell you whether they came. 47 MR. MACKENZIE: 163 1 Q I see. Yes. Well, perhaps I could rephrase that 2 question, Mr. Grant, to assist you. 3 And is it fair to say that during those years you 4 were growing up at your father's cabin, the people who 5 purchased land along Buck Creek did not come to your 6 father for permission to purchase the land did they? 7 A No. 8 MR. GRANT: Just a moment. My objection stands to that question 9 because you again have not given any specifics as to 10 who these people were and she's made it clear she 11 doesn't know who these people are, so I don't know how 12 she can answer the question. 13 MR. MACKENZIE: I wonder if — I wonder if we could move the 14 commission along by having you object and perhaps have 15 her answer the question and then you'd have the 16 opportunity to argue the admissibility at trial? 17 MR. GRANT: Well, I'm clearly going to argue the admissibility 18 of that last answer. 19 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. Okay. Although perhaps — 20 MR. GRANT: I'm proposing — 21 MR. MACKENZIE: Why don't we have the — for the first objection, 22 why don't you -- I appreciate getting your response 23 and your reason, and then perhaps the next objections, 24 if it's for the same reason, you could say that, and I 25 could consider whether I wanted to rephrase the 26 question or not. 27 MR. GRANT: Well, you have endeavoured to rephrase some of the 28 questions and I appreciate that, but I'm saying to you 29 that I am not going to allow this witness to be 30 unfairly treated by being asked questions which it's 31 impossible for her to answer based on the answer she's 32 already given. And that last question comes within 33 that category. I encourage you to move the commission 34 along to take into account what I'm saying. I do not 35 wish to block your questioning. I would much rather 36 sit here remaining silent, but if the witness says she 37 doesn't know who these people are and then you ask her 38 "These people, whoever they are, didn't come to your 39 father?", then how can she know who you're referring 40 to? 41 MR. MACKENZIE: Fine. 42 MR. GRANT: She has given evidence that a number of people came 43 to her father. 44 MR. MACKENZIE: I understand that. I don't agree with — that 45 she's given that evidence, but I understand your 46 point, and I do want to say in response to your 47 comments that I think that characterizing any 164 1 questions here or any intention to unfairly treat or 2 to treat unfairly the witnesses is not a proper 3 characterization and certainly no one intends to do 4 that and we understand that you'll be protecting the 5 witness as well. 6 MR. GRANT: That's why I must maintain the objections when I see 7 that happening. 8 MR. MACKENZIE: No intention at all to treat anyone unfairly I'm 9 sure you -- 10 MR. GRANT: I'm not suggesting there's any mens rea here, Mr. 11 Mackenzie. Do you need a pause off the record? 12 MR. MACKENZIE: Beg your pardon? 13 MR. GRANT: I just thought you needed a pause to look for 14 something. 15 MR. MACKENZIE: 16 Q No, that's fine. 17 Now, Mrs. Bazil, I'm instructed that Mr. and Mrs. 18 Rapp in 1982 received a water licence number C59078 to 19 take water from Buck Creek. Do you know anything 20 about that? 21 A No. 22 Q And Mr. and Mrs. Rapp, who live at lot 5202, do you 23 know anything about them? 24 A No. 25 MR. MACKENZIE: No. They — 26 MR. GRANT: Is that lot in the Buck Creek area? 27 MR. MACKENZIE: 28 Q Yes. Yes. It's just north of -- it's just at the 29 south bridge just north of your father's cabin. 30 And Mr. and Mrs. Rapp apparently -- well, in fact 31 are using this water for irrigation purposes. Do you 32 know anything about that? 33 A No. 34 Q No. Now, in 1977, May 1977, I'm instructed that Mr. 35 and Mrs. Goldecker, G-o-l-d-e-c-k-e-r, applied for and 36 received a water licence number C58350 to take water 37 from Hoist, H-o-l-s-t, Brook. Do you know anything 38 about that? 39 A No. 40 Q And that is for domestic use in their home on lot 41 5198. Do you know anything about that? 42 A No. 43 MR. MACKENZIE: No. And to your knowledge neither Mr. and 44 Mrs. Rapp nor Mr. and Mrs. Goldecker sought permission 45 from Madeek-Kanoots to obtain this water licence, did 46 they? 47 MR. GRANT: Just a moment. I'd ask you to rephrase that 165 1 question because the answer won't make any sense how 2 you've asked it. 3 MR. MACKENZIE: 4 Q Yes. To your knowledge Mr. and Mrs. Rapp didn't seek 5 permission from Madeek-Kanoots to obtain a water 6 licence for Buck Creek water did they? 7 A I never heard anybody mention that to me so I don't 8 know. 9 Q And to your knowledge Mr. and Mrs. Goldecker did not 10 seek permission from Madeek-Kanoots to obtain a water 11 licence for Hoist Brook water did they? 12 A No. 13 MR. MACKENZIE: Got that name? H-o-l-s-t-. 14 MR. GRANT: What was the spelling of Rapp? 15 MR. MACKENZIE: 16 Q R-a-p-p. I'm instructed in 1975 Mr. and Mrs. Hall 17 sought and obtained water licence number C47327 to 18 take water from Hall Brook. Do you know anything 19 about that? 2 0 A No. 21 Q And they used that water for domestic purposes on lot 22 5201. Are you aware of that? 23 A No. 24 Q And Mr. and Mrs. Hall did not seek permission from 25 Madeek-Kanoots to obtain a water licence for Hall 26 Brook water did they? 27 A I don't think so. I never heard of anything like 28 that, so I don't know. 29 Q And there are several other water licences in the Buck 30 Creek area. Do you know about the water licences 31 obtained in the Buck Creek area? 32 A No. 33 MR. GRANT: What — 34 MR. MACKENZIE: 35 Q And to your knowledge people applying for water 36 licences in Buck Creek did not come to Madeek-Kanoots 37 did they for permission? 38 A I never heard of, so I don't know. 39 Q Now, in your evidence you spoke about logging in the 40 Buck Creek area didn't you? 41 A Yes. 42 Q Yes. There's been quite a lot of logging down there 43 hasn't there? 44 A Yes. 45 Q And there was logging south of your father's cabins 46 when you were young, wasn't there? 47 A No. 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 5 A 6 Q 7 8 9 10 A 11 Q 12 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 17 18 Q 19 A 20 21 Q 22 23 24 25 A 26 Q 27 28 A 29 Q 30 31 32 33 A 34 Q 35 36 37 A 38 Q 39 40 41 A 42 Q 43 A 44 Q 45 46 47 A 166 There wasn't any logging during those days? When I was young there was no logging. So all the logging that's taken place as far as you know took place after you were there? Yes. Yes. Now, about two miles south of your father's cabin there's a lot number 6417. Now, you don't know the details -- I'm sorry, you don't know about that lot do you? About how far? Lot 6417 was about two miles south of your father's cabin? South? Towards Neen lii? It sounds like the one that I mentioned was AI McKay there I remember a lot time ago, but there was nobody there. Yes? Just a house. There was a big barn there and a road too. Well, the point that I'm going to get to is that there was a timber sale licence issued to Haftner, H-a-f-t-n-e-r, Enterprises of Houston to log just near lot 6417. Are you aware of that timber sale licence? No. The timber sale licence number is A21522. Does that mean anything -- are you familiar with that number? No. And right next to that timber sale licence there's another timber sale licence number A21520 issued to Mr. A.W. Cowan, C-o-w-a-n, of Burns Lake. And do you know about that timber sale licence? No. And that permits Mr. Cowan to log about 17 hectares of land in that area, and you're not aware of that, are you? No. To your knowledge neither -- to your knowledge Haftner H-a-f-t-n-e-r, Enterprises did not seek permission from Madeek-Kanoots to conduct logging? No. In that area did they? No. And to your knowledge Mr. Cowan did not seek permission from Madeek-Kanoots to conduct his logging operations under timber sale licence A21520 did he? No. 167 1 Q Would it be fair to say that you are not aware of the 2 timber sale licences issued to various people to log 3 along Buck Creek since you left the territory in 1936? 4 A I'll take interpreter for that, please. Well, I said 5 no all the way. I don't know nothing about it. 6 Q And the companies who obtained those timber sale 7 licences did not apply to Madeek-Kanoots for 8 permission to conduct their logging operations did 9 they? 10 A I don't know anything about all that because I never 11 heard from Kanoots or Madeek. They would have 12 mentioned it to me if they did. 13 MR. MACKENZIE: Now, Mrs. Bazil, are you aware that there has 14 been prospecting and mineral exploration in the area 15 around your father's territory? 16 MR. GRANT: What -- can you be more precise when you say the 17 area around her father's territory? 18 MR. MACKENZIE: 19 Q Are you aware that there's been prospecting and 20 mineral exploration within the area described in your 21 affidavit? 22 A There was one I remember was there. He used to have a 23 little cabin by Bob Creek out on the highway. His 24 name was Bill James. He was a prospector I remember. 25 Q Did he prospect on the territory do you know? 26 A Yes. 27 Q Did you see him? 28 A I see him. Yes. I saw him. 29 Q Well, at where Bob Creek comes into Buck Creek there 30 is a placer mining lease number 1894 issued to Mr. 31 Arthur J. Gates, G-a-t-e-s. Do you know about that 32 lease? 33 A I remember there's a mine there that was just about 34 finished I think when I remember that, but I didn't 35 know the names or anything like that. 36 MR. MACKENZIE: And as far as placer mining lease number 1894 37 and Mr. Gates, you weren't aware of that particular 38 lease were you? 39 MR. GRANT: I just — I object. I think the question's unfair. 40 She says that there was a mine there that she knew of. 41 Now, you've asked her about two questions. You've 42 asked her about a placer mining number, and she hasn't 43 referred to any placer mining numbers, and you've 44 asked her about a Mr. Gates. 45 MR. MACKENZIE: Thank you. 46 MR. GRANT: And you haven't — I think you should give her the 47 opportunity -- 168 1 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 2 MR. GRANT: — to explain what — 3 MR. MACKENZIE: Thank you. 4 MR. GRANT: She said she knows about a mine. 5 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 6 MR. GRANT: She may know about that placer licence -- 7 MR. MACKENZIE: Thank you. 8 MR. GRANT: -- but by referring to it by licence numbers -- 9 MR. MACKENZIE: Thank you. 10 MR. GRANT: — it's being unfair to her. 11 MR. MACKENZIE: 12 Q Thank you. Okay. Are you aware of placer mining 13 lease number 1894? 14 A No. 15 Q And do you know Mr. Arthur J. Gates? 16 A No. 17 Q Are you aware that he was drilling on his placer 18 mining lease in August 1983? 19 A I never -- I don't -- I don't know about anything like 20 that either. 21 Q And to your knowledge Mr. Gates did not seek 22 permission from Madeek-Kanoots to drill in August 1983 23 did he? 24 A I never heard of, so I don't know. 25 Q Now, you remember the lake called K'en kia ben? 26 A K'en kia ben, yes. 27 Q Got the name for that and spelling? That's near the 28 beaver swamp isn't it? 29 A Yes, not too far from there. 30 Q Now, just east of that lake Mr. Westguard has a 31 mineral claim record number 1245. Do you know 32 anything about that mineral claim? 33 A No. 34 Q And he's named that claim IRK7. Are you aware of 35 that? 36 A No. 37 Q Now, in July 1982 Mr. Westguard dug backhoe test pits 38 and constructed a trail 1,300 metres and also dug 39 trenches. Were aware of that activity? 4 0 A No. 41 Q And from July to October 1985 Mr. Westguard built a 42 road in that area and used a cat, skidder and backhoe. 43 Were you aware of that activity? 44 A No. 45 Q From October to November 1986 Mr. Westguard was 46 drilling and blasting on that claim. Were you aware 47 of that activity? 169 1 A No. 2 Q And to your knowledge Mr. Westguard did not seek 3 permission from Madeek-Kanoots to conduct those 4 activities did he? 5 A I don't think so because I never heard of. 6 Q Now, in 1980 -- correction, in June 1976 Mr. James 7 McAusland, capital M-c, capital A-u-s-1-a-n-d, applied 8 for and located a claim number 317. Are you aware of 9 that? 10 A No. 11 Q Now, I'm instructed that's in the area of Buck Creek 12 and that the name of that claim is Godfrey, 13 G-o-d-f-r-e-y. Do you know about that claim? 14 A No. 15 MR. GRANT: What number was it? 16 MR. MACKENZIE: 17 Q Record number 317 and the claim name is Godfrey, 18 G-o-d-f-r-e-y. And from August to September 1984 Mr. 19 McAusland was drilling on that site. Were you aware 20 of that activity? 21 A No. 22 Q Now, to your knowledge Mr. McAusland did not seek 23 permission from Madeek-Kanoots to record that claim 24 did he? 25 A No, not to my knowledge. 2 6 Q To your knowledge Mr. McAusland did not seek 27 permission from Madeek-Kanoots to conduct the drilling 28 operations did he? 2 9 A No. 30 Q So would it be fair to say, Mrs. Bazil, that you are 31 not aware of the record numbers of the mineral claims 32 in the territory described in your affidavit? 33 A No. 34 Q Would it also be fair to say that you are not aware of 35 the mining exploration and activity conducted on those 36 mineral claims, apart from the one you mentioned in 37 the territory described in your affidavit? 38 A I'll take interpreter again, please. 39 MR. MACKENZIE: Perhaps I could rephrase that. I think the 40 question's so long probably -- 41 MR. GRANT: Yes. 42 MR. MACKENZIE: 43 Q Within the territory described in your affidavit it's 44 fair to say you're not aware of the exploration 45 activity on the claims located there? 46 A All the new ones there? 47 Q Yes. 1 A 2 Q 3 4 5 A 6 Q 7 8 9 A 10 Q 11 12 13 14 15 16 A 17 MR. GRANT 18 19 20 21 22 23 2 4 MR. macke: 25 Q 26 27 28 A 29 Q 30 31 32 33 A 34 Q 35 36 37 A 38 39 40 41 Q 42 43 44 A 45 Q 46 47 170 I don't know anything of those. I'm instructed that in Buck Flats along Buck Creek there are several grazing permits issued to land owners. Do you know about the grazing permits? No. To your knowledge the holders of the grazing permits along Buck Creek did not seek permission from Madeek-Kanoots for those grazing permits did they? No, I don't think so. And I understand that there are several communication sites located in the territory and they're shown on -- they're referred to in certain maps which have been exhibited at the trial, but I understand one of those sites can be described as capital VGH602. Are you aware of a communication site known as VGH602? No. : Before you -- before you answer that, I'd like it if you would explain what you mean by "communication site". The witness may know something about these or may not, I don't know, but I don't think it's fair to say a communication site number such-and-such. I don't think anyone can answer that unless they just read it in the paper or look on the maps. JZIE: Are you aware that there are communications towers located in different places in the territory described in your affidavit? No. So from that answer I take it that to your knowledge the owners of any such sites didn't seek permission from Madeek-Kanoots to build their sites -- to build those towers? I don't know. I don't hear it so I don't know it. Now, I'm instructed that there's been approximately 132 hectares of reafforestation in the area described in your affidavit. Are you aware of that activity? I'll ask the interpreter, please. Well, I know there's timbers cut down and then the people replanting. I hear about all that, but I don't know exactly what. And the people who -- to your knowledge the people that replanted the trees did not discuss that with Madeek-Kanoots did they? No. Now, are you aware that there are logging roads constructed on the territory described in your affidavit? 171 1 A Yes. 2 Q You've seen some of those logging roads driving down 3 the Buck Creek Road; correct? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And is it fair to say that to your knowledge people 6 who constructed those logging roads did not seek 7 permission from Madeek-Kanoots? 8 A No. 9 Q So it's fair to say that isn't it? 10 A Yes. 11 MR. MACKENZIE: I think I'm almost finished my cross-examination, 12 Mr. Grant, and I wonder if we could have a short break 13 now to enable me just to review my notes, but I think 14 I'm finished with the exception of maybe two more 15 minutes. 16 MR. GRANT: We'll go off the record. 17 18 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR MORNING RECESS) 19 2 0 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) 21 22 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KOENIGSBERG: Mrs. Bazil, my name is Marvyn Koenigsberg. I'm here representing the federal government and I'm going to ask you some questions. You've told us that you are a member of the House of Wah tah kwets? Yes. And you are authorized to speak on behalf of that house, although you do not hold the name Wah tah kwets; is that true? No. What do you mean? Say it again? I'll ask it again. Your chief's name is not Wah tah kwets? No. And there is a Wah tah kwets alive today? Yes. And that's John Namox? Yes. But you are authorized to speak on behalf of the House of Wah tah kwets; is that correct? Yes. Were you aware that Mr. Namox answered some questions in writing called interrogatories? I don't understand the question. I'll ask the interpreter, please. Yes. Okay. Go ahead. 23 Q 24 25 26 27 28 A 29 Q 30 31 32 A 33 Q 34 35 A 36 Q 37 A 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 42 A 43 Q 44 45 A 46 47 Q 172 1 A I wasn't aware of that. I was never told that he had 2 answered any questions in the interrogatories. 3 Q Okay. You've identified a genealogy chart which has 4 been marked as Exhibit 1 in these proceedings, and 5 would you put Exhibit 1 in front of the witness, 6 please? And it is the genealogy of the House of Wah 7 tah kwets; is that correct? 8 A Yes. 9 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Just wait for a second and he'll put the 10 exhibit in front of you. 11 MR. GRANT: Maybe because there were so many you can -- you 12 could explain this is the one that I showed to her in 13 direct examination. 14 MS. KOENIGSBERG: 15 Q Mrs. Bazil, you were shown three genealogy charts in 16 the course of these proceedings. Exhibit 1 is the -- 17 what we have called the final copy and is the document 18 which was put to you by your counsel Mr. Grant in the 19 beginning of these proceedings; is that correct? 20 A I'll ask the interpreter again. I only reviewed the 21 ones that -- that we worked on and that was the only 22 ones that I seen. 23 Q Okay. 24 A But you showed me other ones yesterday also. 25 Q Yes. Exhibit 1 on the first page shows Agnes and -- 26 Agnes Tait and her children Ralph, Theresa, Eddy, and 27 Jerry; correct? 28 A Yes. 29 Q And Theresa and Eddy's children Gordon and Sheldon 30 Tait; correct? 31 A Yes, I believe so that. 32 Q Okay. And on a previous genealogy there was an error 33 which I believe you corrected showing other persons on 34 that same line, that is, the line of the Tait's. Do 35 you remember that? 36 A Yes. 37 Q And it is the document that we're looking at, Exhibit 38 1, which is the corrected version of the genealogies; 39 is that correct? 40 A Yes. 41 Q And it is Exhibit 1 which you reviewed with Mr. Grant 42 before coming to the proceedings? 43 A Yes. 44 Q Before starting this commission; correct? 45 A Yes. 4 6 Q Okay. And it's your evidence that you reviewed no 47 other genealogical charts except Exhibit 1; is that 173 1 correct? 2 A Yes. 3 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Okay. Were there any other persons than Mr. 4 Grant with whom you reviewed Exhibit 1 at any time? 5 MR. GRANT: At the time she reviewed it with me? 6 MS. KOENIGSBERG: 7 Q At any time? 8 A I'll ask the interpreter again, please. The white lady 9 that I had mentioned yesterday was the one that asked 10 questions of me and she was the one that helped make 11 this genealogy chart. 12 Q Okay. And is that white lady's name Tonia Mills? 13 A I believe so, yes. 14 Q And she came to see you from time to time? 15 A Twice I think. 16 Q Twice. Do you recall when that was? 17 A Last summer. 18 Q And she asked you questions about people in the House 19 of Wah tah kwets? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And she asked you questions about the relationships of 22 those people, one to another? 23 A Yes. 2 4 Q And by that I mean who was married to whom and what 25 their children's names were? 26 A Yes. 27 Q Did you see any other documents which look like the 28 chart which is Exhibit 1 before you saw Exhibit 1? 2 9 A No. 30 Q Okay. To the best of your knowledge does Exhibit 1, 31 showing the House of Wah tah kwets, show all of the 32 members of the House of Wah tah kwets as of today? 33 A As far as we remember who it is, yes. 34 Q Did you have any discussions with John Namox about who 35 were members of the House of Wah tah kwets before this 36 commission? 37 A No, I didn't. 38 Q At no time did you discuss membership in the House of 39 Wah tah kwets with John Namox; is that correct? 40 A I talk with him before, but I didn't speak with him 41 just before when we made this. 42 Q Okay. 43 A Yes. 44 Q Could you tell me approximately when you talked with 45 him before? 46 A It was springtime before that I -- we went through 47 this. 174 1 Q Last spring you spoke to John Namox about the 2 membership -- the members of the House of Wah tah 3 kwets? 4 A Every time I see him I talk about it. 5 Q All right. 6 A Not only the springtime, but every time I see him I -- 7 he's older than me and I ask him for informations. 8 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Okay. And do you recall if you actually 9 spoke to him during the time that Tonia Mills came to 10 speak to you? 11 MR. GRANT: What do you mean, at the same meetings? 12 MS. KOENIGSBERG: See if she can answer. 13 MR. GRANT: Well, no. I object to it as it's framed. 14 MS. KOENIGSBERG: 15 Q All right. I'll ask it again. 16 Did you speak to him about the membership in the 17 House of Wah tah kwets before you spoke to Tonia Mills 18 in the spring? 19 A No. I said earlier I said I didn't speak with him 20 before that -- about it before. 21 Q Okay. I'd like to ask you some questions about the 22 members of the House of Wah tah kwets and I'm going to 23 start with your children. You have given birth to 15 24 children; is that correct? 25 A Yes. 26 Q And there are 12 of them living today? 27 A Yes. 28 Q Your first born is named Violet? 29 A Yes. 30 Q And she was born in about 1937? 31 A Yes. 32 Q And she is married to Werner Gellenbeck? 33 A Yes. 34 Q And he is a non-Indian? 35 A Yes. 36 Q And Violet had three children? 37 A Yes. 38 Q Who are of course your grandchildren? 39 A Yes. 40 Q And one of those grandchildren has had a child; is 41 that correct? 42 A Yes. 43 Q And therefore you have one great-grandchild? 44 A Yes. 45 Q From Violet? 46 A Yes. 47 Q Violet holds the name K'alaseet? 175 1 A K'alaseet, yes. 2 Q K'alaseet. I have the spelling from the genealogy I 3 believe and it's spelled K-'-a-1-a-s-e-e-t. 4 Is that a chief's name? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And is that a chief's name in the House of Wah tah 7 kwets? 8 A Yes. 9 Q When did Violet receive that name? 10 A About the end of August. 11 Q Of this year? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Did Violet have a name in the House of Wah tah kwets 14 before August of this year? 15 A Yes. 16 Q What was that name? 17 A Dugh K'al'un. 18 Q Could we have a spelling for that? 19 A Dugh K'al'un. 20 MR. MITCHELL: Dugh K'al'un. D-u-g-h K-'-a-1-'-u-n. That's 21 l-'-u-n. 22 MS. KOENIGSBERG: 23 Q Is that a chief's name in the House of Wah tah kwets? 24 A Yes. 25 Q When did Violet take that name? 26 A Around 1976. 27 Q Has she held any other chief's names? 2 8 A No. 29 Q Where does Violet and Werner Gellenbeck reside? 30 A She's in Terrace right now. 31 Q How long has she lived in Terrace? 32 A Since '70. 33 Q And does Violet have an occupation other than that of 34 a wife and mother? 35 A She works in the -- she works with the government. 36 Q Which government does she work for? 37 A I can't tell you that. She works in the government -- 38 with the government with the looking after the funding 39 for the Indian people. There's a name for it. I can't 4 0 remember. 41 Q Where did Violet go to school? 42 A She started in Houston. 43 Q At the public school in Houston? 44 A Yes. 45 Q Did she go to school any place else? 46 A When we moved to Smithers she went to school in 47 Smithers. 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 A 9 Q 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 Q 30 A 31 Q 32 33 A 34 Q 35 36 A 37 Q 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 43 A 44 Q 45 46 A 47 Q 176 And did she graduate from high school in Smithers? She didn't graduate. Your next child was Herbie? Yes. And Herbie died in 1958? Yes. And your next child was Kenny? Yes. And he died in 1940? Yes. And did he die at birth or shortly thereafter? Eighteen months old. Your next child was Charlotte? Yes. And was she born in 1943? Yes. Okay. And Charlotte was married to Alec Dennis? Yes. And Alec Dennis is a member of the Tsayu clan? Yes. And with Alec Dennis Charlotte had four children? Yeah -- no, just one from him. One child? Yes. And then did she marry Bill Euverman? Yes. Who's a non-Indian? Yes. And then did she marry Jerry Hale? Yes. And in the course of these three marriages she has had four children all together? Yes. And of those four children, six grandchildren have been born? Yes. Where does Charlotte reside now? Prince George. How long has she lived in Prince George? Last ten years. What occupation does Charlotte have other than that of a wife and mother? She's working for the government too. Does she work for the same department of the government as Violet? As Violet does. Yes. Where did Charlotte go to school? 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 6 A 7 Q 8 A 9 Q 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 Q 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 39 A 40 Q 41 A 42 Q 43 A 44 Q 45 A 46 Q 47 A 177 In -- she started in Smithers. Has she gone to any other school than Smithers? No. Before Charlotte moved to Prince George where did she live? Smithers. Your next child is Cory? Yes. And she was born in 1945? Yes. And she is married to Barry Gould? Yes. And he is a non-Indian? Yes. And they have two children of that marriage? Yes. And they've adopted one child? Yes. And does Cory have a name -- Yes. -- in the House of Wah tah kwets? Yes. And what is that name? She's the one that took the name from Violet, the Dugh K'al'un. Dugh K'al'un? Yes. Is that the only name in the House of Wah tah kwets which she has held? Yes. And when did she take that name? 19 -- two years ago I think. And does Cory live in Houston now? Yes. How long has she lived in Houston? Since she got married, 1964 I think. And does Cory have an occupation other than that of wife and mother? She's not -- she's a housewife right now. Has she worked outside the home? Yes, before that. What did she do? She was a nurse and -- Does she have formal nurse's training? Practical nurse. Where did Cory go to school? Victoria. 1 Q 2 A 3 4 5 Q 6 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 THE : INT] 17 MS. : KOEI 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 Q 25 A 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 Q 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 36 A 37 Q 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A 178 When did she go to school in Victoria? I can't remember the years. She was in grade 11. After she finished 11 that's when she left. I can't remember what year. All right. And she took any nurse's training in Victoria? Yes. Your next child is Roger? Yes. And Roger was born in 1946? Yes. And he holds the name Ts'alaas? Yes. How close did I come? Ts'alaas. Pretty close. PRETER: T-s-'-a-1-a-a-s. 5SBERG: And what is Roger's occupation? He's a carpenter. Where does he live? He's in Moricetown right now. How long has he lived in Moricetown? About two months. Where did he live before that? Terrace. And how long has he lived in Terrace? About three years. Is Roger married? Yes. And does he have children? Four. And do any of those children have children? No. If you would look at -- in the Exhibit 1, pages 5 and 6? Five and six. If there's a way to put those together, I think it's easier to read. Pages 5 and 6 I believe contain -- show you -- you and your first husband Frank Bazil and then all of your children and I've been — I've been asking you about your children as best I could in the order in which they're shown on this genealogy and when I get to Roger he's not shown as married. Do you see that? On page 5 on the extreme right he's the last person on that line on page 5. Do you see it, "Roger"? Yes. 179 1 MS. KOENIGSBERG: And should there be a sign there showing 2 Roger as married? 3 MR. GRANT: Just a moment. I don't think that's a question for 4 the witness to answer whether or not this chart should 5 put a sign as him being married. You can ask -- 6 you've asked her whether he's married and she says 7 he's married. It's not up to her how these charts are 8 drafted. She didn't draft it. 9 MS. KOENIGSBERG: 10 Q All right. Were you aware that this chart did not 11 show Roger as married? 12 A The reason his children are not on the House of Wah 13 tah kwets. That's the reason I think. 14 Q And to whom is Roger married? 15 A A girl from Kamloops, Sharon, but they separated. 16 He's not with her. 17 Q All right. Is she an Indian? 18 A Yes, part Indian. 19 Q Okay. Your -- before Roger lived in Terrace for the 20 three years that he lived in Terrace where did he 21 live? 22 A Kamloops. 23 Q Okay. And has he had other occupations than that of a 24 carpenter? 25 A No, that's all his life he's carpenter. 26 Q And where does he work as a carpenter? 27 A Wherever he gets a job. Now there's none. 2 8 Q Okay. And so when he was in Kamloops he worked as a 29 carpenter when he had -- 30 A Yes. 31 Q -- work? And the same in Terrace? 32 A Yes. 33 Q Your next child is Betty Ann? 34 A Yes. 35 Q And she was born in 1947? 36 A Yes. 37 Q And she was married to Tap Halonen? 38 A Yes. 39 Q And he died? 40 A Yes. 41 Q And Tap Halonen was a non-Indian? 42 A Yes. 43 Q And did they have two children? 44 A Yes. 45 Q And of those two children, two children have been born 46 of one of them? Did any of those two children have 47 children? 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 Q 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 Q 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 Q 37 A 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 A 42 Q 43 A 44 Q 45 A 46 Q 47 A 180 Yes. And so you have great-grandchildren? Yes. From Betty Ann? Yes. And then Betty Ann married Tony Bob? Yes. And Tony Bob is a Taltan Indian? Yes. And where does Betty Ann live? Kelowna right now. How long has she lived in Kelowna? Since last July. And where did she live before that? Creston. And how long did she live in Creston? Since -- they must have lived there about 20 years. And does Betty and have an occupation other than that of wife and mother? Hairdressing. And did she take her certificate as -- Yes. -- a hairdresser? Yes. And did she take the -- where did she take her training, do you know? Vancouver. And where did Betty Ann go to school? Smithers. Did she go to school any other place? No. And your next child is Neil? Yes. And he was born in 1949? Yes. And is Neil married? No. He never been married. He lived with a woman. Does he have children? Yes. How many? He's got two. And where does Neil live? He's in Vancouver right now. And how long has he been in Vancouver? A year. Over a year now. And where did he live before he moved to Vancouver? Terrace. 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 5 A 6 Q 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 Q 25 A 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 Q 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 Q 37 A 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 A 42 Q 43 A 44 Q 45 A 46 Q 47 A 181 And how long was he in Terrace? He was there the same time as I was in 1966. And did he stay in Terrace until he moved to Vancouver? Yes. And what is his occupation? Carpenter too. And did he work as a carpenter in Terrace? Yes. Your next child is Gerald? Yes. And he was born in 1950? Yes. And where does Gerald live? Terrace. How long has he lived in Terrace? Since '66. And what is his occupation? He was just a labourer. And did he go to school? Yes. Where? In Smithers. Did he also go to school in Terrace? For one year. Yes. Is Gerald married? No. Does he have children? One. And your next child is Lillian? Yes. And she was born in 1951? Yes. And she is married to Dean Granley? Yes. And they have two children? Yes. And Dean Granley is a non-Indian? Yes. And they have one child? Two from Dean Granley. Two? Yes. And Lillian married again after Dean Granley? No, just live with -- live with another man. And that man is a non-Indian as well? Yes. 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 16 A 17 18 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 Q 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 Q 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 A 45 Q 46 A 47 Q 182 And they've had one child? Yes. And that is Christopher? Yes. Who's very young? Yes, just last month. And does Lillian have an occupation other than that of wife and mother? She's working for the government too. Does she work in the same department as Violet and -- No, it's in different position. Do you know what government she works for? No. Do you know the subject matter of what it is she works? She looks after the -- someone has been in jail for a long time when they come out she's counselling. She's a counsellor for them. And where did Lillian go to school? In Smithers. Did she go to school in any other place? Part in Terrace too. And where does Lillian live? Port Coquitlam. And how long has she lived there? I'll say about ten years. And did she live in Terrace before Port Coquitlam? Yes. Surrey. First Surrey? Yes. And your next child is Marlene? Yes. Marlene was born in 1952? Yes. And is Marlene married? No. Does Marlene live with anyone? She's living with somebody now. All right. And is that person a non-Indian? Non-Indian. And does Marlene have any children? No. Where does Marlene live? Vancouver. How long has she lived there? About 25 years. What is her occupation? 1 A 2 3 4 Q 5 A 6 Q 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 Q 25 A 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 Q 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 37 Q 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 A 45 Q 46 A 47 Q 183 She runs -- I can't remember the name of it. It's where they do make-up. I can't remember that name. The Touch of Beauty I think it's called. And where did Marlene go to school? Smithers. Did she go to school any place else? No. Sandra is your next child? Yes. She was born in 1954? Yes. And she was married to Charles Robinson? Yes. And he is a Tsimshian Indian? Yes. And they had one child? Yes. And then she married Craig Small? Yes. And Mr. Small is a non-Indian? Yes. And they have one child? Yes. Where does Sandra live? Calgary. How long has she lived in Calgary? A year now. Where did she live before that? Edmonton. And how long did she live in Edmonton? About two years. Did she ever live with you in Terrace? Yes. For how long? Sixty-six until she got married in -- I can't remember what year she got married. And did she leave home after she got married? Yes. She left home after she got married. And did she leave Terrace? Yes. Where did she first go? They live in Vancouver for a while. And Sandra's occupation outside the home? She's working in a bank. Where did Sandra go to school? Smithers and Terrace. Your next child was Kenneth? 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 Q 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 Q 25 A 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 31 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 Q 37 A 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 A 42 Q 43 A 44 Q 45 46 A 47 Q 184 Yes. And Kenneth died? Yes. Your next child was Lawrence? Yes. He was born in 1958? Yes. Is Lawrence married? No. Does Lawrence have any children? No. Where does Lawrence live? Vancouver right now. How long has he lived in Vancouver? Two years. Where did he live before that? Terrace. Did he go to school in Terrace? Yes. Did he ever go to school in Smithers? Yes. What is Lawrence's occupation? Carpenter too. And has he worked as a carpenter in Terrace? Yes. And is he working as a carpenter in Vancouver? Yes, but now he's going to school. Where is he going to school? In Vancouver somewhere. I can't remember. I never been there so I don't know where he's going to school as far as I know. And your last born child is Dolores? Yes. And she was born in 1961? Yes. And she married Pat Martin? They were not married. They just lived together. And he was a member of the Tsayu clan? Yes. And they had one child? Yes. And she is now married to a non-Indian? Yes. Not married again, it's just living again. Okay. And they've just had a child by the name of Travis? Yes. Who is a beautiful baby? 185 1 A Yes. 2 MR. MACKENZIE: Make a note of that. 3 MS. KOENIGSBERG: 4 Q We've all had the benefit of seeing Travis. 5 Where did Dolores go to school? 6 A Smithers and Terrace. 7 Q Where does Dolores live now? 8 A Terr -- Smithers, I'm sorry. 9 Q When did she move back to Smithers? 10 A After she graduated. It was 1977. 11 Q Has she lived in Smithers since 1977? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Does she have an occupation other than that of -- 14 other than that of wife and mother? 15 A Yeah, she was working for the Forestry for a long time 16 and now she's not working. 17 Q I would like to ask you questions about other members 18 of the House of Wah tah kwets. We've covered quite a 19 few of them just in your own family. 20 Do you know Nora Tait? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Did you know Nora Tait? 23 A Yes. 24 Q She died? 25 A Yes. 26 Q When did she die? 27 A I'll say about two to three years ago. 28 Q Okay. And she was married to Jerry Vantunen? 29 A Yes. 30 Q And they had 12 children to your knowledge? 31 A I know she has a lot of children, but I don't count 32 them, so -- 33 Q All right. There are 12 children shown on the 34 genealogy, you'll agree with that? 35 A I'll agree with that. Yes. I know she lost some of 36 them. 37 Q Yes. And the genealogy shows that four of them died? 38 A Yes. I believe that's right. 39 MS. KOENIGSBERG: And let me ask you if you were asked by Tonia 40 Mills or anyone else your knowledge of the children of 41 Nora Tait and Jerry Vantunen? 42 MR. GRANT: I object to that to the extent that it may include 43 discussions with her legal counsel. 44 MS. KOENIGSBERG: 45 Q Were you asked by anyone other than Mr. Grant about 46 who the children of Nora Tait and Jerry Vantunen were? 47 A They ask me, but what my answer was the Nora Tait 1 2 3 4 Q 5 A 6 Q 7 8 A 9 Q 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 15 A 16 Q 17 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 30 Q 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 Q 37 A 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 A 42 Q 43 A 44 Q 45 A 46 Q 47 186 about that age I know them clearly and their children, I know they have children, but I don't know them -- individual's names. Yes. For all of them. All the chart is like that. And it would be fair to say that you wouldn't have been certain exactly how many children she had living? Yes. At the time that you were asked? Yes. But that you did know them? I do know them, but I don't count them or -- by names. Where did Nora Tait and Jerry Vantunen live before Nora Tait died? This side Moricetown. Right. And do you know any of Nora Tait's children today? Yes. And do you know Darlene Tait? Yes. And she is the person who holds the name Ah k'ot? Yes. Did I come close? Yes. Ah k'ot. And where does Darlene Tait live? I can't tell you exactly now. Okay. Does she live in Moricetown? She was going to school in Prince George the last I've heard. All right. I don't know if she still is. And do you know Diane Tait? Yes. And do you know where she lives? Last I seen her was in Moricetown not too long ago. Right. So I don't know exactly if she lived there or not. Or if she was just visiting? Maybe. Do you know Hank Vantunen? Yes. And do you know where he lives? With his father yet. Do you know Helen Tom? Helen Tom? I never met her. Okay. Do you know Sarah Tom, or did you know Sarah Tom? 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 Q 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 17 18 19 A 20 Q 21 22 23 A 24 Q 25 A 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 31 Q 32 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 Q 37 A 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 A 42 Q 43 44 A 45 Q 46 A 47 Q 187 Yes. And she's still alive? Yes. She was married to Pierre Tom? Yes. And he is dead? Yes. And they had a child Rosie Tom? I don't know her children either. All right. We're talking about Sarah Tom's children? Yes. She has lot of children, but like I said I never met them or talk with them or seen them. Okay. I know she has a lot of children too. Okay. The information on the genealogy on page 2, if you look, you'll see about in the middle of the page, close to the middle of the page, where Sarah Tom is? Do you see her? Yes. And it shows that Rosie Tom, Gordon Tom, Bobby Tom, Billy Tom, and Helen Tom appear all to be the children of Sarah Tom and Pierre Tom? I'm pretty sure they have. Yes. Okay. But you didn't know that? I know they have children. Yes. I know them. Yes. But like I say all the children that -- I never lived close to them and I don't keep track. Okay. And it shows Helen Tom is married to Lawrence Hallgren. Did you know him? No. Did you know Veronica Jim? Yes. And she was married to Emil Larson? Yes. And did you know him? Yes. And they had children? Yes. What page are you on? I'm sorry, I'm over on page 3. Did you know Mable Larson? Yes. And did you know Frank -- is it Mungex? Frank Munger, yes. It's an "r", not an "x" there? 188 Yes, it is. Okay. And you knew both of them? Yes. Where do they live? Granisle. And do you know any of their children? The older ones. That's the only one I know. You would know Owen? Owen, yes. And do you know where Owen lives? What did you say? Do you know where Owen lives? Burns Lake. And did you know Dawn? Yes. And do you know where Dawn lives? No. Okay. And do you know Louise Cunningham? Yes. And she is the daughter of Veronica and Emil? Yes. And where does Louise live? Victoria. Do you know her child Gordon? Yes. And we see -- if we turn over to page 4 we see your brother Peter Jim on the extreme right-hand corner? Yes. Where does Peter Jim live? Moricetown. And Sarah Jim was your sister? Yes. And she's married to Simon Dennis? Yes. 35 MS. KOENIGSBERG: And they had — 36 MR. GRANT: Page 7. 37 MS. KOENIGSBERG: -- five children? Yes. And two of those children are dead? Yes. And did you know Barbara Ann Dennis? Yes. And she married William Naziel? Yes. And where do they live? They're separated too. She's in Houston. 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 Q 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 Q 25 A 26 Q 27 28 A 29 Q 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 Q 34 A 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 A 42 Q 43 A 44 Q 45 A 46 Q 47 A 189 1 Q And do you know her children? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And do you know Gordie Naziel? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And where does Gordie live? 6 A With his father in Moricetown. 7 Q And do you know Wallace? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And where does Wallace live? 10 A Wallace I think is in Prince George. 11 Q And Stacey? 12 A In Prince George too, yes. 13 Q And is it Marcia or Marcia? 14 A Marcia, yeah. 15 Q And where does she live? 16 A All those four -- three girls they in Kelowna 17 somewhere. They was taken away from her. 18 Q Okay. That's Marcia, Mary and Agnes? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And there's a fourth girl on the genealogy and her 21 name is -- is it Charrine? 22 A Yes. That's the baby. 23 Q I want to go back and ask you some questions about the 24 clan the Laksilyu clan. There are three houses in the 25 Laksilyu clan? 26 A Yes. 27 Q Would you tell me the names, please, again? 28 A Kwen beegh Yex is for one Wah tah kwets' House. 29 Q Yes. 30 A Hagwilnegh, that's G'e neegh la yex. And Wah tah 31 keght is Tse k'al k'a yex. 32 Q All right. And who is the head chief in the -- I'm 33 going to try this -- Tse k'al k'a yex -- 34 A Wah tah keght. 35 MS. KOENIGSBERG: — House? And could I have a spelling for 36 that? 37 MR. MITCHELL: Number 9 on the list. Spelling for which? 38 MS. KOENIGSBERG: 39 Q Oh, I'm sorry. Yes. That's the house, the third 40 house? 41 A Yes. 42 Q And what is the name of the head chief in that house? 43 A Wah tah keght. 44 MR. MITCHELL: Number 6. 45 MS. KOENIGSBERG: 46 Q Have you heard the name -- I'm going to try this -- 47 Mugh Lagh Legh, or it looks like "Max Lax Lex". Mugh 190 1 Lagh Legh? 2 A I heard the name, but I don't know who's holding it 3 right now. 4 Q All right. Is that a chief's name? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And in what house? 7 A I can't remember. That's what I just can't remember. 8 Q As far as you know there is a person holding that 9 name? 10 A Yes. 11 MR. MITCHELL: Excuse me. How do you pronounce it? 12 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Mugh Lagh Legh. 13 MR. GRANT: Go off the record. 14 15 (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION) 16 17 MS. KOENIGSBERG: 18 Q Are there crests for the House of Wah tah kwets? 19 A Yes. 20 Q What are they? 21 A Frog. 22 Q And what is the crest for the house in which 23 Hagwilnegh is the chief? 24 A It's the House of many eyes is -- the crest is the 25 eyes. 26 Q And the house in which Wah tah keght is the head 27 chief? 28 A Yes. 29 Q What is the crest? 30 A I think the crest is caribou. 31 Q I attempted to pronounce number six, and I'm sorry, I 32 missed -- I missed your answer of what the crest was, 33 the last one? 34 A It's a caribou. Dz'eeh. 35 MS. KOENIGSBERG: And does the — 36 MR. GRANT: Just — 37 MS. KOENIGSBERG: 38 Q I'm sorry. Does the Laksilyu clan have crests that 39 are particular to that clan? 4 0 A I don't understand what you mean. 41 Q Okay. Does the Laksilyu clan have any crests? 42 A They all have crests, yes. 43 Q All right. Are they -- are there any crests which are 44 only for the clan and not -- not identified with any 45 one of the houses within the clan? 46 A I still don't understand. I'll ask my interpreter. 47 Yes, there is lots more. 1 Q 2 3 A 4 Q 5 6 A 7 8 Q 9 10 A 11 Q 12 13 A 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q 20 A 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 Q 28 29 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 34 35 36 Q 37 38 39 40 A 41 42 Q 43 44 A 45 Q 46 A 47 191 When I asked you what the crest or crests were for Wah tah kwets you said frog? Yes. Are there any other crests in the House of Wah tah kwets? The -- each house they have a crest, so that frog is Wah tah kwets' crest, house crest. Okay. And then there are crests in the — of the clan, the Laksilyu clan? Yes. And they are different from the frog crest for instance? In a way. Sometimes if you talk to someone they'll say Laksilyu clan they're all frog tribes. That's how it works. They'll be whole side of the wall in the feast house they'll call Laksilyu. It will be all frog tribe, as they look at it fast way, but they all have different houses and different crests. Okay. And Laksilyu means frog? Yeah -- no, it doesn't mean frog, but it's -- I don't know how to explain it. Now, if I say I'm talking about Laksilyu clan I'll say frog clan. It's means the whole works, just the -- and then when I say that, it means the whole clan, and then -- then yet they have different houses and they have different crests for the house. Okay. So let me see if I can understand it this way. The frog crest which you've referred to as belonging to the House of Wah tah kwets -- Yes. -- would also be a crest in the clan Laksilyu? I'll ask my interpreter to explain it to me. I just finished telling you that each house have their own crest and you keep asking me that same question all the time. That's true. I'm trying to understand. I'll leave that. I want to ask you, is there a particular story or tradition that belongs to the House of Wah tah kwets? There is. They have stories each one, but I can't recall them now. Okay. There is a word I have heard called -- which looks like Kun gax? Kun gax. Yes. What does that mean? That's what -- when they act out their crest when they have feasts, Kun gax means they act out the animal 192 1 they have for their crest. That's what means Kun gax. 2 Q All right. So that Kun gax of Wah tah kwets acted out 3 at a feast would be the frog? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And for Tse k'al k'a yex? 6 A Tse k'al k'a yex. Yes. 7 Q It would be the caribou? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And so on? 10 A Yes. That's how -- that's what means Kun gax. 11 Q Where did the -- where did the House of Wah tah kwets 12 come from? 13 A It's a tradition from years back. We don't know how 14 it started, but it's in the tradition from years and 15 years back and it's continue. As a young generation's 16 born, they continue on their teaching. Now if I'm 17 getting old -- now I'm getting older and older, so I 18 talk to my children about it and then they learn and 19 then when I'm gone they're going to do the same thing 20 as I'm doing and I did the same thing what my 21 ancestors taught me. All the tribes they all doing 22 the same thing, it's just continue on going. It never 23 end and we don't know how far back it start. 24 Q Okay. Do you have a story that -- or a history that 25 says where the first or original village where Wah tah 2 6 kwets was was? 27 A Well, in years back I just can't talk about it because 28 I don't exactly know where it start from. 29 Q Okay. Is Wah tah kwets in -- now in Moricetown? 30 A Yes. 31 MS. KOENIGSBERG: And was there a place — do you know of any 32 story that talks about any place other than Moricetown 33 or the area of Moricetown? 34 MR. GRANT: What do you mean by the area of Moricetown? 35 MS. KOENIGSBERG: 36 Q Right around Moricetown, if it's not on the present 37 exact site of Moricetown? 38 A Well, Moricetown before it was found there was a 39 village down beside Hagwilget called Dizkle and that 40 time they were mixed with Gitksan people, our 41 ancestors way back, and they had a village and log 42 houses and at Dizkle that's beside Hagwilget. 43 Q Have you got the spelling for Dizkle? 44 A Which called Mosquito Flat now which is called Dizkle 45 and they were mixed with Gitksan people and 4 6 Wet'suwet'en. They all mixed at the time and then 47 they split up. From there they move to Moricetown and 193 1 it's been located there since. 2 Q Okay. Is that Mosquito Flats the same place that you 3 told us that when you were first married you and your 4 husband went there and he cut poles? 5 A Yes. 6 MR. GRANT: This may be an appropriate time to break for lunch. 7 It's 12:30. We've gone an extra half hour. I think 8 the witness's indicated she's willing to break now. 9 10 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCHEON RECESS) 11 12 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) 13 14 MS. KOENIGSBERG: 15 Q This is tape 6 and it's a continuation of the 16 cross-examination of Lucy Bazil. 17 Mrs. Bazil, do you know Madeline Alfred? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And what is her chief's name? 20 A Dz'eeh. 21 Q Dz'eeh? 22 A Dz'eeh. 23 Q And what house is she in? 24 A Tse k'al k'a yex. 25 Q Is that number 9 on the word list, Mr. Translator? 26 A I don't know I pronounce it right or not, but that's 27 how I pronounce it. 28 THE INTERPRETER: Yes, that's number 9. 2 9 MS. KOENIGSBERG: 30 Q Is that known as the House on top of a flat rock? 31 A Yes. 32 Q Okay. Now, earlier in your evidence you told us about 33 shortly after you were married and about 1937 or so 34 your husband was employed cutting poles. Do you 35 recall that? 36 A Yes. Yes. 37 Q And I understood you to say that he was employed by 38 both Big and Little Tommy Michell? 39 A Yes. 40 Q Do you know the house in which Big Tommy Michell is? 41 A Yes. 42 Q What is that? 43 A Tsayu. 44 Q All right. Is he in -- that's -- is Tsayu the name 45 for a clan? 46 A Yes. 47 Q Is there a house within that clan to which he would 194 1 belong, do you know? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Is -- which one is that? 4 A Tsayu. 5 Q All right. Is Little Tommy Michell the same -- 6 A No. 7 Q -- house? 8 A No. 9 Q All right. Do you know what house in? 10 A G'e neegh la yex. 11 THE INTERPRETER: Number 10. 12 MS. KOENIGSBERG: 13 Q And that is the House of many eyes? 14 A Yes. 15 MR. GRANT: And Tsayu is 43. 16 MS. KOENIGSBERG: 17 Q You also told us that in the early part of your 18 married life you went in the summertime to Prince 19 Rupert and worked in the cannery; is that correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And your husband as well fished -- 22 A Yes. 23 Q -- for the cannery? 24 A Yes. 25 Q When you were there were there other Wet'suwet'en 26 people there? 27 A Just a few. 28 Q Do you recall any of them by name? 29 A Pat Michell was one. 30 Q Yes. And was he fishing for the cannery? 31 A Yes. Tommy Tait was another one. 32 Q And he was fishing for the cannery? 33 A Yes. 34 Q Anyone else that you can think of now? 35 A Francis Alfred was one of them at the time. 36 Q Yes? 37 A And there was Louie Morris who was one of them too. ] 38 think that's about all at that time. 39 Q All right. After that time were there more people 40 that you knew who were Wet'suwet'en who were fishing 41 at the coast? 42 A Not very many after that. That the year my husband 43 and I were down there, that's when there was quite a 44 few of them, but after that it cut down. There's not 4 5 many. 46 Q Now, I'd like to ask you some questions about the 47 House of Madeek. You've told us that Madeek is the 195 1 house in which your father was? 2 A Yes. 3 MS. KOENIGSBERG: And in your affidavit in paragraph 3 you say: 4 "I have obtained from Peter Alfred, the former 5 Kanoots, George..." And then I can't read it. 6 MR. GRANT: Naziel. 7 MS. KOENIGSBERG: 8 Q "...Naziel and Fred Joseph Kanoots to describe and speak about the Ts'un c'os 'aay territory owned by the House of Madeek." Yes. Do you recall that? Yes. I'm just going to read you the next sentence as well. "I have spoken with members of the House of Madeek and understand that Fred Joseph will speak for the House of Madeek until such time as someone is chosen to take the Madeek succession to George Naziel who recently died." Do you recall that? Yes. Why are you speaking for Madeek? Because I'm the one that grew up in that territory and I was raised on that territory and I know more about it, then they choose me because I can speak about it clearly. Okay. You also told us about concern of members of the House of Madeek about trespassing signs on their territory and that you were asked to speak about it at conferences that you would go to? Yes. Do you recall that? Yes. Why were you asked to go to these conferences to speak about this instead of someone from the House of Madeek? Because I'm the only one that can go there and any from the house they don't -- they got no way to get there. Now, you also said in answer to some questions from Mr. Mackenzie, he was asking you with regard to a number of uses to which white men have put the territory, if you knew if permission had been sought from the House of Madeek. Do you recall him asking you those questions? 9 10 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A 24 Q 25 A 26 27 28 29 Q 30 31 32 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 Q 37 38 39 A 40 41 42 Q 43 44 45 46 47 196 1 A Yes. 2 Q And at one point you said if -- that you didn't know 3 about it, but that if permission had been sought, you 4 think you would know about it, that someone in the 5 house of Madeek would have told you; is that correct? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Why do you think they would tell you? 8 A Because I been close to Madeek and Kanoots and they 9 know I am concerned about the territory where my 10 father was, has been, and I grew up there and they 11 know I am concerned about that all the time. I'm kind 12 of miss the country and they know it and I always ask 13 them question about it if they go there. So next time 14 they see me they always tell me what they see and 15 what's happening to the country. 16 Q Have you been authorized to speak about the House of 17 Madeek other than about the territory? 18 A Now, I don't understand quite. I'll ask my 19 interpreter, please. 20 MR. GRANT: I think that before the interpreter translates it I 21 don't understand as well. I think I know what you're 22 getting at, but I think you should try to be more 23 precise in your question. 24 MS. KOENIGSBERG: 25 Q Have you been -- have you been asked by members of the 26 House of Madeek to speak on their behalf about the 27 crests or stories about the House of Madeek? 28 A Yes, but they don't talk to me about their crest. 29 It's just the territory that they talk. 30 Q And if we wanted information, if I wanted to obtain 31 information about the history and stories about the 32 House of Madeek, would a person in the House of Madeek 33 be more knowledgeable than you? 34 A Yes, that's correct. 35 Q In preparing for this commission evidence did you -- 36 did you discuss the members, the full membership, of 37 the House of Madeek with anyone in the House of 38 Madeek? 39 A No. 40 Q Are you familiar, of your own knowledge, about all of 41 the members of the House of Madeek? 42 A Say that again. 43 Q Are you familiar -- do you know all of the members of 44 the House of Madeek? 45 A Yes. 46 Q And how would you know that, and I ask you that in the 47 context that you're not in the House of Madeek? 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 5 Q 6 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 12 13 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 21 22 23 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 Q 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 Q 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 A 45 Q 46 A 47 Q 197 No. Why would you know that? Because when I go to feast house they all facing me and I know who they are. All right. You would know then all of the persons of the House of Madeek who attend the feasts; correct? Yes. Would you know all of their children? Yes. Okay. Before the commission evidence started did anyone come and talk to you and ask you questions about the membership of the House of Madeek other than Mr. Grant? Yes. It's that lady that I been talking about. Mrs. Mills? I keep forgetting her name. Yes. Mrs. Mills or Miss Mills? Yes. Would you please put Exhibit 2 for identification in front of the witness. It's the genealogical chart of the House of Madeek and please turn to page 4 of that genealogy. Okay. Do you know Alice Joseph, who's married to Joe Pete? Yes. And where do they live? Moricetown. And they have -- they had 11 children? Yes. And do you know all of those children? Not all of them, just the older ones. Just the older ones. Do you know Tina Pete? Yes. And she's married to Simon Tommy? Yes. And do you know where they live? Moricetown. And do you know Joyce Pete? Yes. And she's married to James Quock? Yes. And do you know where they live? Moricetown. And do you know Norma Pete? Yes. And where does she live? Right now I don't know, maybe Moricetown. Did she live somewhere else before Moricetown? 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 5 6 Q 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 MS. KOEI 13 MR. GRA1 14 MS. KOEI 15 Q 16 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 25 Q 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 Q 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 Q 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 A 43 44 Q 45 A 46 Q 47 A 198 No. She always live in Moricetown. And do you know Lorraine Pete or -- From there I don't remember them. I know they're there, but the names and person -- individuals I know them by names. And so you wouldn't know where Lorraine Pete lives? No, not right now. Or Shirley Pete? They're probably all at Moricetown. I don't know. Do you know Dora Dennis? Yes. 5SBERG: And — : What page are you referring to? SSBERG: I'm sorry. I'm on the next page, page 5. And she's married to Paul -- is it Madam? Madam, yes. Madam? Uh-huh. And where do they live? Moricetown. And do you know their children? She has lot of children too, but I -- the same way. I just know the oldest. My count is eight. Does that sound right to you? That's about right. Yes. You know Melvin? Yes. Do you know where he lives? Moricetown. And Louie? Moricetown. He lives in Moricetown? Yes. Vivian? Yes. She lives in Moricetown? Yes, as far as I know. Wayne? From there I don't know them. I know them, but -- You don't see them on a regular basis? Not regular basis and don't see them -- recognize them. As they grow up they look different too. On the first page did you know Sarah Joseph? Yes. And she was married to Matthew Pierre? Yes. 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 30 Q 31 32 33 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 39 A 40 Q 41 42 A 43 Q 44 45 46 A 47 Q 199 And you knew both of them? Yes. And they're both dead? Yes. Did you know their children? They have a lot of children too, the same, just I know one or two of the oldest. That's all. All right. Did you know Andy? Yes. Yes. Do you know where he lives? Hagwilget as far as I remember. Did you know Fred? Yes. Do you know where he lives? All in Hagwilget. Amos? Yes. Hagwilget? Yes. Mary? All in Hagwilget. And from there I don't know the rest. All right. You didn't know Emma? I heard about her, but I don't see her. All right. And she's married to a non-Indian? I don't know who she married. All right. And do you know where she lives? They all live in Hagwilget as far as I know. The father is from there. That's where they remain. I think I just have one more question and I just want to see if I already know the answer. We've used the word, or I've heard the word, Taan deet? Taan deet. Taan deet? Yes. And on the list of words, number 30, there's a word that says -- and it says it's "lake on the boundary"? Yes. In your affidavit on page 4 under the heading "House and Campsites", the third one down, "Tandet"? Uh-huh. It says "Cabin near lake of same name". Those are two different -- two different things, but they have the same name? Taan deet, and which one the other one? And well they're just spelled differently. Is it -- 200 1 are there two words that sound the same? 2 A Taan deet Yex, that's the right word. 3 Q Okay. And the cabin is called Taan deet -- 4 A No. 5 Q -- the same as the lake? 6 A No, it's the house, the cabin they call it "Yex". No 7 Taan deet I don't think is the name there, but I guess 8 it's just spelled wrong on there. Taan deet Yex, 9 maybe that's what it is. 10 Q Yex? 11 A Yex means "cabin". It will sound like it's Taan deet 12 Yex. It's Taan deet is the house right there. 13 MS. KOENIGSBERG: All right. Could we have a spelling for 14 "Yex"? 15 MR. MITCHELL: Y-i-g-h.(sic) 16 MS. KOENIGSBERG: I-i-g-h? 17 MR. MITCHELL: Y-i-g-h. 18 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Y-i-g-h. Those are all my questions. Thank 19 you, Mrs. Bazil. 20 MR. GRANT: Maybe we'll go off the record and take a short 21 break. 22 23 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR AFTERNOON RECESS) 24 2 5 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) 26 2 7 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. GRANT: 28 Q Okay. Mrs. Bazil, I'm going to ask you a few 29 questions arising out of all of the questions that Mr. 30 Mackenzie and Mrs. Koenigsberg asked you. Okay. 31 Now, I believe it was two days ago Mr. Mackenzie 32 asked you a series of questions and one was he asked 33 you about a person named Khay Lah? 34 A Khay Lah. 35 MR. GRANT: Okay. Do you have that number, Mr. Mitchell? 36 MR. MITCHELL: Sixty-four. 37 MR. GRANT: 38 Q Do you know what house or which clan Khay Lah belongs 39 to? 40 A He's Laksilyu and he's belong to G'e neegh la yex. 41 MR. GRANT: Which number is that? 42 MR. MACKENZIE: Excuse me, Mr. Grant, I'm going to comment for 43 the record that some of the persons that are present 44 in the room are responding to your questions as well 45 as Mrs. Bazil and I would ask that you instruct your 46 clients that Mrs. Bazil only is to answer the 47 questions at this commission. 201 1 MR. GRANT: My client -- these other persons are responding. As 2 I understand they're not -- they're not on the record 3 and Mrs. Bazil is giving -- gave an answer and then 4 they said something, then Mrs. Alfred said something, 5 but Mrs. Bazil gave no further answer. So there is no 6 response except from Mrs. Bazil that is on the record 7 and she didn't change her answer in any way. 8 MR. MACKENZIE: No, I agree with that, and I just ask that you — 9 MR. GRANT: Yes. 10 MR. MACKENZIE: — ensure that that continues to happen. Thank 11 you. 12 MR. GRANT: 13 Q Okay. Now, you've given the names of a number of the 14 houses. For example, you have just referred to the 15 House of -- to G'e neegh la yex. That is a house 16 name; is that right? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And I believe your house is Kwen beegh Yex? 19 A Yes. 20 Q What does the -- is there a Wet'suwet'en word "Yex"? 21 A "Yex", it's a house. 22 Q I'm going to ask you which house certain persons 23 belong to if you know. Do you know Joe Nikal? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Do you know which house he belongs to? 26 A That's G'e neegh la yex. 2 7 Q Do you know John Tommy? 28 A Yes. 29 Q Which house does he belong to? 30 A Lak sa mushu. It's Mes dzii yex. 31 MR. MACKENZIE: Excuse me, Mr. Grant, could you tell me what 32 part of the cross-examination this arises from? 33 MR. GRANT: 34 Q This arises from your reference to applications for 35 trap line registrations in reference to Exhibit 8 for 36 identification. And the document Exhibit 8 for 37 identification refers to "See band council 38 resolution", and the band council resolution which was 39 in that file which you -- the entire file of which you 40 produced for me after you had commenced 41 cross-examination, but before now, includes this band 42 council resolution which includes these persons' 4 3 names. 44 Do you know who Steven Tommy is or was? 45 A Yes. 46 Q And do you know which house or clan he belongs to? 47 A Lak sa mushu. It's the same as Johnny Tom. It's his 202 1 nephew. 2 Q What about Lawrence Tommy? 3 A It's the same. All three of them are the same. Same 4 house. 5 Q Now, you were asked whether your brother Peter Jim 6 took over your uncle, I believe it was, Louie Tommy's 7 trap line by Mr. Mackenzie? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Do you remember that? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And I'm showing you Exhibit 8 for identification which 12 refers to -- on the back of it it refers to your name 13 plus John Tommy and Lawrence Tommy. Do you see that? 14 A Yes. 15 Q What rights under -- under Wet'suwet'en law would John 16 Tommy or Lawrence Tommy have rights to use that 17 territory? 18 A Yes. It's Neg'edeld'es -- not really Neg'edeld'es, 19 but what happened was when Louie Tommy had the 20 territory he was too old to go there himself so it was 21 his son-in-law and his grandchildren which he raised 22 himself. He's the one that put the name on there. 23 And when Peter Jim took -- took the territory they 24 want to leave two of them on there, so this is why 25 there's two of them on there. 26 MR. GRANT: Now, I'm showing you a band council resolution dated 27 September 10th, 1979, entitled "Re-Louie Tommy and 28 Company Trap line" and there's latitude and longitude. 2 9 And on that trap line this document came out of the 30 same file as Exhibit 8 for identification. For the 31 record, it is the only band council resolution in that 32 file, and it appears that the reference on the back of 33 Exhibit 8 to band council resolution is a reference to 34 this document. Now, before I ask you questions, I'll 35 ask that this be marked as Exhibit 12 for 36 identification. 37 MR. MACKENZIE: Now, Mr. Grant, I agree that the reverse of 38 Exhibit 8 does say "See band council resolution", but 39 with respect I don't think you can go much further 40 than that. 41 MR. GRANT: Well, with respect I think that the document is — 42 the reference on Exhibit 8 appears to be from an 43 examination of the file to this document and properly 44 this document should have been put in with Exhibit 8, 45 but we can argue that out later. 46 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 47 MR. GRANT: Can you mark this as Exhibit 12 for identification, 1 2 3 4 5 6 MR. GRANT 7 Q 8 9 10 11 12 13 A 14 15 16 Q 17 18 19 A 20 21 Q 22 23 24 25 26 27 A 28 29 Q 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 Q 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A 203 please? (EXHIBIT 12 FOR IDENTIFICATION: Band council resolution dated September 10th, 1979) I'll give you an opportunity just to read that and in particular -- well, you should read -- just read the entire document. Just when I'm talking about that, I'm talking about the typed portion starting at the "whereas Louie Tommy" to your name at the bottom "Lucy Bazil". Okay. I don't understand this. I'll let my interpreter explain to me because some of the members name wasn't on there yet. Okay. I'm just going to ask you about one or two of the names that are on there so could you translate that for her? No. That part I understand, but this part here. Joe Nikal is. Joe Nikal is passed on. Okay. Okay. I'll just ask you -- you don't have to understand the entire document for my question. Okay. I'll just ask you a question on it, Mrs. Bazil. Before Joe Nikal passed on, would he have rights under Wet'suwet'en law to be on the territory that Peter Jim is now registered? Yes. He -- he's the son-in-law and he traps for his father-in-law. Okay. That's why it was agreed. And his father-in-law was? Joe Nikal, son-in-law of Louie Tommy. Okay. Thank you. Just for the record, I only put that Exhibit 12 for identification in so to -- because it appears to have a larger list of members that on Exhibit 8 for identification. Now, Mr. Mackenzie showed you a document, Exhibit 11 for identification, which had a mark on it and purported to be the mark of your father Jim Mooseskin and it was entitled "Application for registration of a trap line". Now, the last sentence that's typed in says "I will not trap over land upon which any white man resides unless I get permission.". Did your father ever speak to you about being -- about being told about not trapping over lands where white man lived? He never mention that to me. 204 1 Q Okay. Did he trap over lands on which white man lived 2 after 1928? 3 A I said that earlier that he did trap in front of 4 there, but he ask them. He tell them he going to set 5 trap in front of their property and they let him. 6 Q Now, you recall that you gave evidence that you went 7 with your father to the different parts of the 8 territory when he trapped when you were young? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And one of the places that I believe you said you went 11 to was Dzel teel k'un'? 12 A Dzel teel k'un'. Yes. 13 Q Forty-nine. And did you go there with your father 14 after 1928 when you were eight years old? 15 A I was about ten when I used to go, 10 or 11, I used to 16 go with him. 17 Q You were asked about Sarah Holland and you had 18 indicated that she was Kanoots. Was Sarah Holland in 19 Wah tah kwets' House? 2 0 A No. 21 Q Which house was she in? 22 A Madeek's House. 23 Q I'm sorry, that was my mistake in my question. I 24 intended to ask if she was in Madeek's House. 25 Now, I'd like to show you Exhibit 2. You were 26 asked by Mr. Mackenzie if you had seen Exhibit 2 27 before the commission. This is the genealogy of 28 Madeek. Do you recall reviewing this with me on 29 Monday the first day of the commission, but outside of 30 this hearing room, that you and I discussed the 31 members of the House of Madeek? 32 A Yes. 33 Q Do you have trouble now, Mrs. Bazil, recalling names 34 of a lot of people? 35 A Yes. Not only the senior names or any other names, my 36 memory is -- disappears when they come to names. Even 37 my grandchildren or anybody that I just can't -- my -- 38 the name wouldn't register right away in my mind. 39 Q Okay. You do you recall the names on Exhibit 2 40 that -- me reading those names out to you -- 41 A Yes. 42 Q -- when we reviewed it? 43 A Yes. 44 Q And if the names are read to you, do you remember who 45 they are? 46 A Yes. 47 MR. GRANT: You were asked by Mr. Mackenzie why the name Madeek 205 1 has not yet been taken and you explained that to him. 2 Who is responsible for the Madeek-Kanoots territory 3 today between the time of George Naziel and Peter 4 Alfred's passing away and the feast at which their 5 successor is formally named? 6 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Before the witness answers that question, Mr. 7 Grant, I would object that I don't think that question 8 arises out of the cross-examination. I believe that 9 in fact you canvassed that in your examination in 10 chief and she answered it. I just say that for the 11 record. 12 MR. GRANT: Thank you. 13 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, I agree with that objection. 14 MR. GRANT: 15 Q Go ahead. 16 A Well — 17 MR. MACKENZIE: Excuse me, I was just checking the notes of the 18 examination in chief to confirm that. Go ahead. 19 THE WITNESS: Well, as I said it's — they just passed away 20 recently and they -- they point out the names to the 21 two people already, that's Freddie Joseph and Russel 22 Tiljoe. They already pointed out, and they are 23 preparing to get a grave stone and grave all fixed up, 24 then they have the feast. I don't know whether they 25 going to have it together or not, maybe separate, and 26 then in the meantime they are pointed out and they -- 27 they can go and look after the territory in the 2 8 meantime. 2 9 MR. GRANT: 30 Q Does Fred -- did -- does Fred Joseph hold a name now? 31 A Not yet. He's holding it, but he's got to have feast 32 first before it's finished. 33 Q I'm showing you a document which again is part of the 34 file relating to the Peter Alfred trap line which was 35 not shown to you yesterday, but was together with the 36 document which is Exhibit 9 for identification, that 37 is, when I say that it was in the file with that 38 document, and I would ask you if you have seen that 39 before? 40 A No, I haven't seen no map before. 41 Q Okay. Mr. Mackenzie used two terms when he spoke to 42 you about your territory. On certain times -- certain 43 of his questions he talked about your trap line and in 44 other questions he talked about your territory. Now, 45 is the trap line of Kanoots the same as the 46 traditional territory of Kanoots? 47 A No. 206 1 MR. GRANT: Does the trap line of Kanoots include Wid'uk C'es? 2 MR. MACKENZIE: And who are you referring to as Kanoots in this 3 respect, Mr. Grant? 4 MR. GRANT: Who am I referring to what, as Kanoots? 5 MR. MACKENZIE: As Kanoots. That is, I take it you're referring 6 to a registered trap line. 7 MR. GRANT: 8 Q No. Oh, I see. I see. I see. Does the registered 9 trap line held by your father and by Peter Alfred 10 include Wid'uk C'es, number 78? 11 A Wid'uk. 12 Q Wid'uk — 13 A Wid'uk. 14 Q — C'es? 15 A No, it's outside the territory. 16 Q Does the territory, that is, the territory which your 17 father used before registration include Wid'uk C'es? 18 A No. 19 MR. GRANT: Okay. I refer you to Exhibit 4, page 3. Do you 20 recall meeting with me and going through this 21 affidavit? 22 MR. MACKENZIE: I object to that question. 23 MS. KOENIGSBERG: I object to it also. That cannot possibly be 24 proper re-examination to go over a matter that has 25 been gone over in an examination in chief. 26 MR. GRANT: All I did was file the affidavit in examination in 27 chief. I did not go over this boundary. The boundary 28 itself was raised with her in cross-examination. 29 There was a sworn affidavit and there's — there was a 30 sworn affidavit and she was cross-examined on this 31 affidavit. She was not examined in chief on this part 32 of this affidavit. 33 MS. KOENIGSBERG: You have our objections. 34 MR. GRANT: 35 Q Go ahead. 36 A Ask me again. 37 Q Do you recall -- do you recall me going over this, 38 reading this affidavit over with you before you signed 39 it? 40 A Yes. 41 MR. GRANT: Okay. Now, do you recall on the top of page 3 that 42 we read over that first three lines: 43 44 "The boundary description starts where the 45 Upper Bulkley River meets Wet'sen kwe, Bulkley- 46 Morice River. It goes east along the south bank 47 of the Upper Bulkley River to a point about two 207 1 miles west of Neel d'zii C'eek." 2 3 Do you recall me reading that over to you? 4 MR. MACKENZIE: I object to that question. 5 MR. GRANT: 6 Q Objection's noted. Go ahead. 7 A Well, the reason this -- I was agree with it because 8 that doesn't include my fathers's territory, but that 9 part there I -- I know the whole area, and that's Wah 10 tah kwets' area, that bottom part, and that's where 11 Houston is. 12 Q Okay. 13 A And that's how I recognize it the same way as I did, 14 but it's not inside my father's territory. 15 Q Okay. 16 A Wet'sen kwe and Bulkley River and other — Neel d'zii 17 C'eek is right in Houston. 18 MR. GRANT: Okay. Just one moment. Madam reporter just wanted 19 to check a number. Do you have that number for 20 Houston, Mr. Mitchell? 21 MR. MITCHELL: Ninety-one. 22 MR. GRANT: You gave evidence that you went with your father to 23 Dzel teel k'un', number 49, and camped there. Did 24 your father describe to you where the boundary went 25 from Dzel teel k'un'? 26 MR. MACKENZIE: I object to that question. 2 7 MR. GRANT: 2 8 Q Go ahead. 29 A Dzel teel k'un' where he had the cabin he said was 30 just as far as he can walk, a day walk. That's where 31 he has the cabin. But there's little more down 32 towards Houston yet to go, but he doesn't have the 33 cabin there because walking one day walk distance 34 that's where the cabin is. 35 Q Okay. Did you cross any creeks on the way to that 36 cabin? 37 A Lots of little creeks. 38 MR. MACKENZIE: I object to that question. 39 MR. GRANT: Did he tell you the names of any of those creeks? 40 MR. MACKENZIE: I object to that question. 41 THE WITNESS: He does, but I forgot them now. 42 MR. GRANT: 43 Q Mr. Mackenzie this morning asked you a series of 44 questions about persons who received Crown grants, 45 that is, they got pieces of land in the Buck Creek 46 area from the government of British Columbia. And he 47 told you about people who had bought or received land 20E 1 recently, but he didn't give you the names of people 2 who had bought land in the early 1900's or received 3 Crown grants around 1919, 1913. If Mr. Mackenzie had 4 given you those names, is it possible that you would 5 have recalled some of the names of people your mother 6 told you about? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Mr. Mackenzie asked you this morning about mining and 9 started giving you mining -- placer mining leases, I 10 believe, numbers, and you talked about one prospector 11 at Bob Creek. Is -- did you -- were there any other 12 persons prospecting in your father's territory when 13 you were growing up there to your knowledge? 14 A The only person that I remember was that Bill James 15 and there's one further up by Alfred Namox was that 16 John Erickson. He was doing the same thing, but it 17 was not in my father's territory. 18 Q That was in the Namox territory? 19 A Namox territory. Yes. 20 Q Now, Mr. Mackenzie asked you a series of questions 21 about persons with -- who'd bought land, persons who 22 had water licences, persons who had grazing permits, 23 persons who had mining leases. And at the end of each 24 of these questions he asked you if you knew if this -- 25 if it was an individual or other persons, if you knew 26 whether they had received permission from Kanoots or 27 Madeek and you gave generally the same answer, but on 28 occasion you said "No.", and on some occasions you 29 said "I don't know.". Do you -- do you know whether 30 any of these persons obtained permission? 31 A My answer would be not that I know of in my lifetime 32 that any government that settle land came to the -- to 33 the people that looking after the territories that 34 come to them and ask them for any information. I 35 never heard that and I never seen it, not once that I 3 6 know. 37 MR. GRANT: Did those people who tore down your father's house 38 ever come to your father or the subsequent Kanoots for 39 permission? 40 MR. GRANT I object to that question. 41 THE WITNESS: No. 42 MR. MACKENZIE: It doesn't arise out of cross-examination. 43 MR. GRANT: It certainly does, Mr. Mackenzie. You're the one 44 that asked whether all these people had permission, 45 unless you're suggesting that those persons were not 46 one of the ones that you were referring to? 47 MR. MACKENZIE: What I'm suggesting is that I object to the 209 1 question. 2 MR. GRANT: You've got — your point's made. 3 MR. MACKENZIE: Thank you. 4 MR. GRANT: Mrs. Koenigsberg asked you a series of questions 5 about what members of the House of Wah tah kwets did, 6 their occupations, and asked you quite a bit of those 7 questions this morning. And I just want to ask you as 8 an example because I don't want to go through each one 9 of them given the time we have left and the anxiety 10 for everyone to leave, but let me ask you this. Does 11 Roger Bazil, your son, does he still use the fishing 12 sites at Moricetown? 13 MS. KOENIGSBERG: I object to that question. It doesn't arise 14 out of the cross-examination? 15 THE WITNESS: He hasn't yet. He never been around there to use 16 it. 17 MR. MACKENZIE: We're reacting very violently, Mr. Holland. For 18 the record that noise was I was just moving the 19 microphone over for Miss Koenigsberg to be able to 20 respond if necessary. 21 MR. GRANT: 22 Q Yes. I didn't take advantage of the time of silence 23 when both of you were cut-off to squeeze in another 24 question. 25 Miss Koenigsberg asked you about Nora Tait and her 26 12 children and she referred to the names of some of 27 those children. I'm going to put Exhibit 1 in front 28 of you. And she referred as far as Diane Tait I 29 believe, and I'm just going to go on. You know Hank 30 Vantunen? 31 A Yes. 32 Q Ann Vantunen? 33 A Well, that's the little ones that -- I know them all, 34 but I -- each individuals I get mixed up with them. 35 Q You get mixed up with the name? 36 A Yes. 37 Q But you know that if you saw Ann Vantunen today you 38 would know who she was? 39 A Yes. Yes. 40 Q And that's the same with the rest of her children? 41 A Yes. 42 Q Okay. And is that the same with the young children 43 and grandchildren and great-grandchildren on Exhibit 1 44 and 2, the Madeek and Wah tah kwets genealogy? 45 A Yes. All the same. 4 6 Q You know them, but sometimes you can't remember their 4 7 names? 210 1 A 2 MS. KOENI 3 4 5 MR. GRANT 6 7 8 9 MR. GRANT 10 Q 11 12 13 14 15 A 16 Q 17 18 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 25 Q 26 27 A 28 Q 29 30 31 32 33 A 34 Q 35 36 A 37 MR. GRANT 38 MS. KOENI 39 40 41 MR. GRANT 42 Q 43 44 A 45 Q 46 A 47 Q Yes, I know them all. 5SBERG: For the record, Mr. Grant, that was her evidence when I asked her the question. She said she knew them, she just didn't remember the names. Just go off the record for a moment, please. (OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION) Okay. We can go back on the record. You were asked by Miss Koenigsberg about whether each house had histories I believe or each house had stories. Is there a history that belongs to each of the houses of the Wet'suwet'en people? Yes, they have. And you described that you were getting older and you are teaching your children and grandchildren now in evidence. Who taught you the history of your house? My grandmother. And who was that? Deliiz, my father's mother -- Deliiz? -- and my mother and the other old people that I used to know, they all died. And are those the histories you are passing on to your children and grandchildren? Yes. Now, you were asked by Ms. Koenigsberg if persons in the House of Madeek would be more knowledgeable than you about the history of the House of Madeek. What I'd like to ask you is Mrs. Madeline Alfred was married to Kanoots; is that right? Yes. Does -- do Wet'suwet'en chiefs talk to their spouses about the histories of their own house? Yes. : Would Madeline -- 5SBERG: I'm going to object for the record on the basis I don't see how that arises out of my cross-examination, but go ahead. Would Madeline Alfred be more knowledgeable about the history and crests of the House of Madeek than you? Yes. What does the word Taan deet -- Taan deet means -- -- mean? 211 1 A -- water, narrow lake. "Deet" means narrow and long. 2 Q Okay. So is that the name -- would that be the name 3 of a specific lake or would the Wet'suwet'en use the 4 name Taan deet for a number of lakes that are narrow 5 and long? 6 A Well, maybe different country -- places maybe they do. 7 If they see it like that, that's how they'll name it. 8 Q Okay. 9 A What the shape of mountains, what shape of lakes, 10 that's how they name them. 11 MR. GRANT: Okay. Okay. For the record, the — there was a 12 word list being prepared for Lucy Bazil's evidence 13 which commenced -- I believe the first version went up 14 to about 40 or 50 and then it's been added to by Mr. 15 Mitchell. And Mr. Mitchell has put in English words 16 or parallels along the line for the assistance of 17 counsel. And I just want to note that it's agreed by 18 counsel that this word list when the final version is 19 typed up will be delivered and will become Exhibit 13 20 in these -- in these proceedings. It will be an 21 exhibit, but subject to -- counsel will have a chance 22 to review it before we consent to that. However, I 23 want to note for the record, and request Mr. Mitchell 24 to change it, that the word Taan deet, number 30 on 25 that list where he has put in brackets "lake on the 26 boundary", that that's not a translation of the 27 witness and it was just for our assistance and that 28 that -- that definition or naming should be taken out 29 and possibly the word "long narrow lake" should be put 30 in which is a closer translation of the witness -- 31 which is a closer translation of the witness of what 32 Taan deet means. And subject to that, and the filing 33 of Exhibit 13, I'm through with my re-examination. 34 Thank you very much, Mrs. Bazil, you can go off the 35 record. 36 37 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED) 38 39 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 40 a true and accurate transcript herein 41 to the best of my skill and ability. 42 43 44 Tanita S. French 45 Official Reporter 46 -
Trial proceedings
British Columbia
KEB529.5.L3 B757
English
Uukw, Delgam, 1937-
Indigenous peoples--Canada
Oral history
Wet'suwet'en First Nation
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Vancouver : United Reporting Service Ltd.
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[Commission Evidence of Lucy Bazil]
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