Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Commission Evidence of David Gunanoot Vol. 2] British Columbia. Supreme Court May 13, 1986

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 mbS  WS 3^ lAi"  IN  THE  SUPREME  COURT  OF  BRITISH  COLUMBIA  No.  0834 Hazelton, B.C.,  Smithers Registry 13 & 14 May, 1986  BETWEEN:  AND:  DELGAM UUKW, also known as  ALBERT TAIT, suing on his  own behalf and on behalf of  all the members of the  HOUSE OF DELGAM UUKW  AND OTHERS,  Plaintiffs  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN.  THE RIGHT OF THE PROVINCE 0"FV  BRITISH COLUMBIA,        V.  et al, v  N  Defendants    "^  V^W-  .-:V  COMMISSION  EVIDENCE  of  DAVID   GUNANOOT  VOLUME     II  COPY       TO   :  PETER  R.   GRANT,   ESQ., (1)  HAZELTON,   B.C.  d 2-96  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  DAVID  GUNANOOT,  a  witness  called  on behalf of the Plaintiffs,  previously   affirmed,    testifies  as follows:  RALPH MICHELL,  Gitksan Interpreter,  previously affirmed.  UPON COMMENCING AT 12.45 p.m., Tuesday, 13 May, 1986  MR.  RUSH:   We'll start this next session of the Commission,  David.  THE WITNESS:  What's that?  MR. RUSH:   We'll start our evidence now.   Today is May 13th.  It has been a while since we last got together.  \I ' ve  got some questions for you.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH (continued)  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  The last time you were giving us evidence you told us  about Haiwas.  Haiwas?  He is related to you, is he?  That's supposed to be my mother's father.  Your mother's father?  Yes.  You also told us about a man by the name of Black Hat  Tom?  That's Bill Leek.  Is he related to you?  Supposed to be, my uncle.  Your uncle?  Yes.  Is he your uncle on your mother's side?  Yes.  He's a brother to your mother, is he?  Yes, pretty close.  I wanted to ask you about berry picking?  Which one?  Berries?  Berry picking.   Have you ever done any berry  picking?  I don't know -- what?  You know what I'm talking about?  Huckleberries?  Huckleberries?  Yes.  Did you ever pick any of those?  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 car 037  2-97  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Oh yes.  Where did you pick those, David?  Now?  Yes.  Used to be quite a lot around Two Bear Lake too.  Little  besides that.  That's where I see quite a lot, I think,  when I was a kid but now, after that big fire, Bob Quinn  Lake, that's the place they're picking berries right now.  Where is that?  The other side Bob Quinn Lake.  Bob Quinn Lake.  That's where a lot of people going now after that big  fire.  Did you ever pick berries down by Kisgagas?    few of them around there, but it's all right for  those they call blueberries.  That's what they're picking  up around there. , v  What's the place where you pick the blueberries, by   *'Ģ  Kisgagas?  Too many places.  Used to call that   I forgot now.  I forget.  Kind of big flat around there, that's the place  where they used to pick those blueberries.  Was there any place down there where your mother had a  blueberry patch?  Yes, everybody around there, not only my mother.  When  you start picking them.  I have shown the others.  Did you ever pick any blueberries over on Skawil's  territory?  Quite a bunch of them now.  Timbers around there.  Couple  of years after newborn timbers, they all covered up with  berry bushes.  Just let me ask you about -- you told us about Skawil's  territory the last time we were asking you questions.  Can you tell us how Skawil got his territory?  How did he got it?  Yes.  How did that territory first come to Skawil?  On account of that man from Kispiox used to go up to  Kispiox River and go over to Slamgiist and going up to  the Thompson River.  In the spring time when the Stikine  been using that net for the beavers.  They catching those  beavers by their home-made net by themselves.  This man  from Kispiox, they making hole on top of those beaver  houses.  Those Stikines got mad and they tell the man  to quit that, what they're doing.  Those beavers, they  scared them out of the houses, and that's an awful long  time to find where the beavers went.  Telling them to  quit it.  Quit it.  No.  Next year they come back again  and still done the same thing again.  They been sitting  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 coro3r  2-98  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  together and talk it over between the Stikine.  Talk  it over.  Talk it over.  So they're already to put that  out.  But there's one Galdo'o over there.  He's a big  husky young fellow.  Very young fellow.  He was listening  to them, but how's he going to stop it?   He can't stop  it.  It's only the one from Galdo'o himself listening  for that.  They see that man coming again, and that was still  the same time so they shoot them.   And they're going  over there and they look what they kill, what they got,  and there was the big chief.  Big chief.  Q     What was his name?  A     His name was Xskiigimlaxha.  MR. PLANT:   Xskiigimlaxha?  MR. RUSH:   Xskiigimlaxha.  THE WITNESS:     moved back, and they moved back, and they  promised to go east, back to Awiijii.   That's the time  they got where they waiting for that Nass River people*,  at that time, but they didn't even get it.  But they  stayed up to Awiijii.  They didn't even go back to the  Thompson River any more after that.  That fellow who has been with them from Galdo'o  got a big fight back of that, those black powder, but  he run into some place on a lake with his back to that  black powder and the chief, the Stikine chief, when they  camped the powder was still all right, not wet at all,  but the chief was talking about when we got up to Stikine,  I'll sell you for one keg of powder when we get up there.  That young fellow was the kind, they don't like  the idea.  That fellow, that old man.  They still keep  going, they still go with them.  He's kind of worried.  They want it to be sold by the people and be a slave  for the others.  So they think about what they're going  to do.  Noticed his shoes to be worn out, snow shoes,  those heavy things, started to break out, and he told  the Stikine people "I'll be sitting here for a while  and re-fit my snow shoes".  He's talking too much.  That  fellow was still building his snow shoes as fast as he  can but he made it all right.  He made it right up the  top of the mountain, where the hard snow is.  Finally he got on top of the mountains, he got stuck  at one place that's too narrow, right at the top of the  skyline, top of the mountain.  Finally, he opened his  legs and just go, like that, with his two legs going  across that, and go down, and goodbye.  Go down and goodbye.  Nothing but too steep.  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-99  GUNANOOT,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  D.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Still keep on. Finally got on the other side and  he looked back, waiting for them, to see them covering  over. Wants to see them coming over,  them come and they started out on the other  they see that top of the mountain is too  all came back and go home.  the run again.  This is the Galdo'o man still?  What?  This is the man from Galdo'o?  Yes.  Where does he go?  Keep on going to Galdo'o.   He  and cross into one little creek  Luuskeexwt.  That place where  why they call it Luuskeexwt.  There goes  But they see  side. Quietly  so they  he's on  much  him,  went over  They call  that little  They still  that mountain  it  creek, that's  keep on going  Treat  That's  until he got to Old Galdo'o and  that's  that.  him -- some kind of soup, gave him the soup.  all he could eat is soup.   Still keeping on doing it  until he's strong enough to talk and start telling all  the story about those Stikine people.  They take that part -- I don't know what they call  that, that gun, which start a fire, I don't know the  name -- he knocked that off with that.  That gun which  for that, where they shoot that old man.  And  shoe building, they cut them off and tied  and they show it to Galdo'o and they give that.  witness,  what he saw.   They believed that.  awful long time at that time when they start,  my father's father.  take that name as Xskiigimlaxha.  was sick and my daddy packed his  was bringing trouble here.  they use  his snow  together  That is  That was  my grandfather,  Yes.  That was at least one  But he died after. He  father until after he  Macintosh troubles.  Did your grandfather find out about Xskiigimlaxha?  Did he find out he was dead?  That's why my grandfather take the name.  What did your grandfather do?  Which what?  What did your grandfather do  chief was dead?  That's all he does, he takes  name.  What was    Xskiigimlaxha.  What was the man's name from Galdo'o  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189  when he found out the old  the name.  He takes the Znroj:  2-100  GUNANOOT,  In  Chief  Mr.   Rush  D.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  name  kid?  That's what I forget.  I can't forget  that.  Do you remember the  You mean that young  Yes.  That's what I  I see.  They used  forget it.  Okay.  He's a big  long wood  a big pile  Who buried  'Ģ I can't remember  of the mountain that he crossed?  can't remember.  to tell me about it a long time ago but I  strong fellow.  Goes to camp.  Taking those  just chewed right out.   Just kept on,  got  of wood.  Still keep on doing that,  the old chief that was shot by the Stikine?  I don't know. I don't know everything  Where    I think that was Galdo  body and take him into  far from there.   He's  who took that name and  Okay.  So he took that chief  spend everything what he  o going out there and pick the  Galdo'o,  because  it's  not  v>ery  got to be my grandfather I think  maybe he's the one taking that.  name at the same  s got about that.  time when he  OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  people go up and fight with the  them went out there after the  name was Solomon Dick and  yes,  Dan  Skawil  and  I  Q  A  Q  A  Now, David, did some  Stikine after that?  That is when a few of  Galdo'o.  Who went out there?  There's a man I know.   His  Tom Sampson and Dan Skawil --  forget who is the other.  There's more.  And there's the  woman.  I for^got his name -- her name too.  The one that  has been trained as --to handle those like thirty-three  or forty-four.  What happened then?  Where did they go?  They went upto Awiijii.  What happened up there?  They get out of there, they go up, going up there and  when they got out of there and there's the woman outside  picking up those kind with wood to put into the -- I  don't know what it was -- I think that was fire.  The  woman see them coming out between the bush there, and  they hollered inside the house of them.  In a very short  time time there goes the man outside.  He showed himself  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2,-10,0/1  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  for what that woman talking about. It's up in arms,  It's nothing, nothing at all, no nothing, nothing on  her belt, just little slippers on the feet.  Well, the old Skawil you talking about, they  surrender, they give up, they're not going to fight.  The man want that, the chief Stikine, called him over  coming out, she with  used to line up that  that's the fastest  that woman.  The  being trained to  and they right in.  That woman was  rifle, that's what he's got.  They  line it up on the log like that ..  shooter that they ever seen, about  Stikine bought that woman that was  fire so many shots.  They think they scared to attack  because she only a woman, she clean them up in short  time.  Being trained.  I used to remember the story  when I seen that .... I forgot what is that show.  Now, when the Stikine Chief asked Skawil to come over  and talk    Yes. ' \   what did they talk about?  Standing outside for a while and the rest of them, busy  inside the house.  When they get ready and somebody opened  that swinging doors,; talking to the chief, come on in.  There's big beaver meat was still swirling around.  That's  how they roast that meat still, very hot fire.  Still  keep on.  Quietly they talk about, and they watched that too.  There's not a sign for that cooked fresh meat before.  Watched that and they take that beaver meat and they cut  it up in pieces.  Very nice, no blood, no nothing, very  nice, really cooked.  It's really cooked.  If there is  still blood in that meat that means they're going to fight  again.  Hang on  to that knives, really cooked, they don't  say anything.  Okay.  When they through, that get all those bunch, that's  regular thing with the old beaver.  Tanned moose, tanned  moose hide.  Cariboos.  Bear.  Grizzlys.  Any kind of  thing what they could use into the rooms.  Even those  mountain goat skins.  Used to wash them with -- clean  them up and use them as a bed.  Mattress.  That's what  they use.  What did they do with the hides?  What's that you mean?  What did they do with them?  They all pile up and given to them.  Who gave it to who?  The Stikine people give it to Skawil in kind of    Who did they give it to?  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-102  GUNANOOT,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  D.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  They give it to Skawil's bunch.  What did that mean when they gave it to them?  That means that pays for the dirty work.  Pays for the dirty work.  And even the land they going to pull their feet off that  land and move it up beween the Bell Irving River to Shannoji  River.  That's the place where they're going to camp when  they meet again.  But they didn't even get there.  As  far as they all went Skawil goes, to Awiijii.  Now   That's Stikine Awiijii.  Awiijii.  Did Skawil get the Awiijii land?  Yes, they give it to Skawil.  Okay.  Yes, Stikine give it to Skawil.  Did they give Stikine any -- excuse me -- did they giv^e  Skawil anything else?  Did they    Nothing.  Was this a peace settlement?  Yes.  They give it to the chief, to the two chiefs.  What do they call the peace settlement?  What's that?  What do they call it when they make peace?  That's what they call it, Xsiisxw.  Xsiisxw.  Did they give Skawil anything?  Did they give  him something to show that it was a peace?  That is what they gave what I'm telling you, all of those  moose hides, moose tan and hides, and caribou, grizzlys  and the black bear.  Any kind thing like that.  Did they also give a feather?  Oh yes.  That's the main part of it.  At that time, there  they goes, that chief, I just forget that.  They took  that big red feather, kind of silky one, and grab it here  take this and don't lose it, don't give it away.  If it  is any trouble for you, you better take this one and show  that who try and get you into trouble.  Old Skawil take  that feather and put it away.  Hunt at Kitwanga one time  when I was down there.  They like me to tell everything  about Skawil.  And even about my dad's gun that night.  I'll ask you about your dad's gun in just a minute but  who's got the red feather today?  I heard that was Jessie Sterritt looking after that.  Now, you have seen the red feather, have you?  Oh yes.  Who  showed   it   to  you?  I  was  handling   it,   and  I  was  the one who has  been  talking  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 ZfTOZT  2-103  GUNANOOT,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  D.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  @  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  about that down  tell them where  Okay.  They call it T' iye  What * s  there.  They take me up  that feather came from.  to show them and  itxwm gawaganii  what they call  millimetre?  it.  that called?  That's what they call it.  Tell me again?  T'iye'itxwm gawaganii, that's  What about your father's nine  What?  Your father's gun?  There's those guns.  Two guns?  After my dad was being taken out, after the trouble  about that Macintosh, and there's the gun right into  talking about -- everybody talking about the gun can shoot  ten shots for one, for just one shot and never miss anything that they could shoot for.  So my dad'was down tYhere  and his friend who had some people just showed them the  gun and got so many of those buck-shot with those guns  that was German Luger.  Where did it come from?  That's what they call that German Luger.  Where did your dad get the German Luger?  Hudson Bay.  Okay.  When they take this gun out they get a case and they take  the gun out of there and just leave it on the front there  and there you go, you're ready to shoot.  Now, you said I think that there were two guns?  Well, the old man Skawil was kind of worried about my  dad, that's his brother or he's my father, so he seen  that gun in there, throw it out, maybe Gunanoot will be  run out of village and I'll get those shell Jor the --_  if I get one of the gun.  So the old man buy that gun too,  so that will be two guns out of the Hudson Bay.  It's  to talk about it now, those two guns go no more,  Just German Luger.  That's why they give it  talk about it down to Kitwanga.  I show it to  too late  no more.  to me to  them.  Where's the gun now?  I think it's still down there.  Down at Kitwanga?  No, at Miss Sterritt.  At Mrs. Sterritt's house?  Yes.  I believe that's the one because she's the one  looking after those things belong to old man Skawil.  Well, now    Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-104  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  My dad gave up to Bell Lake the man, his name was Tyee,  Big Chief Tyee from --I forget what they call that --  some place back there.  He's already getting mad for every  body talking about he scared my dad to death after he  does the murder, so he takes that gun and give it to Tyee  for nothing.  There, I'm going to give myself to make  those people who called me I'm scared,  So he did give it over for nothing.  I  Skawil bought that from the gun store.  been good for me.  David, just about when you told us how Skawil got the  Awiijii territory    Well, that's      you told us about the Kispiox man who came down and  put a hole in the beaver    Yes, that's right.  What did he do when he put the hole in  I'm not scared,  said to myself  It would have  the beaver house?  that there was a Galdo'o that went with  it was going  1t shoot him they  uncle.  That  They scaring the beaver for those Stikine. \  I see.  That's why they shot him.  And they made a mistake for  the wrong man.  They shooting the chief instead of shooting  that man who has been poking the holes on top of the beave  house.  What was that man's name, do you remember?  I don't know.  Now, you said _  the Stikine?  That's the Galdo'o that was -- that was,  to be all right if it is -- if they didn  would have found one of my grandfather's  is the one that shoot him there.  Yes.  That's my grandfather-' s uncle.  That was still  Xskiigimlaxha anyway his name.  When the Galdo'o man you told us about got away from the  Stikine and went back to Galdo'o what did he show them?  What did he show the Galdo'o people?  You mean the young fellow?  Yes.  When the young man got back to Galdo'o?  They got that new snow shoe filling.  And that hammer  for that old china wall.  What was the hammer from?  It came from that gun which they using for that when they  shoot that man.  They not supposed to shoot people, that  was bad luck.  They keep on carrying that like that using  for murder.  That's why they threw that gun away but that  young kid, they knock it off.  Did he show this hammer to the other people?  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-105  GUNANOOT, D.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  They just give it to the people, to the Galdo'o people.  Just like the witness anyway.  Now, do you know how long ago this was when this happened?  When old Xskiigimlaxha was murdered?  How long ago was  that?  I don't know.  He was born after.  Too long ago.  Okay.  I was with Skawil for lot of time.  Who told you about the account of Xskiigimlaxha's death?  Who told you about?  Which Xskiigimlaxha?  The old man that was killed by the Stikine.  Who told  you that?  Too many people.  William Jackson telling me about that.  Dan Skawil.  Quite a few people telling me about that.  Even my grandmother would have been telling me the story.  I learn -- my grandmother used to me lot of, stories b<3caus  I asked and I always sleep with my grandmother because1-  I seen everybody pitching to their bed and I know they're  going to bed.  I go to my grandmother    Now    alongside of her, I used to say "tell me the story"  and there goes my grandmother.  Lay down and there goes,  start telling the story.  David, why was -- before old Xskiigimlaxha was killed  by the Stikine    What?  Before old man Xskiigimlaxha, before he was killed by  the Stikine, what was he doing up there in Awiijii?  Xsk ii g imlaxha ?  YesT the old man that was killed.  What did he do up there  That was Thompson River way where they killed him.  What was Xskiigimlaxha doing there?  Well, he always joining the Stikine people and he was  kind of friend for him, and they knows him, that he was  coming into Galdo'o and they look for that Xskiigimlaxha  and spend the night with him, and off again.  But when Xskiigimlaxha was up at Awiijii, was he hunting  or trapping or fishing?  Or was he doing something up  there?  They used to do some trapping around there but they don't  break any houses.  Yes.  They used to trap for marten.  That's what they talk about  Now, does the Thompson River have another name7  Thompson River?  Yes.  Is there another name for it?  I don't know.  I don't know the name.  Xsi txemsem for  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-106  GUNANOOT,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  D.  those two  it is.  rivers.  There comes the river and that, whateve  OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  I just wonder, is the Nass River the same as the Thompson  River?  Those two rivers.  Are they the same river though?  Yes.  I see.  MR. PLANT:  I'm glad you do'. .  BY MR. RUSH:  Nov;, the territory, the trapping territory -- sorry, let  me start again.  The hunting territory that was part of  the Xsiisxw, was TAft Creek in that area?  ' \  Yes.  Both sides.  But different on the other side and  the mountain on the other side, Taft Creek right here  and there's water on the other side, just like that.  Like a triangle?  I was being questioned for that, a long time ago.  The  people wants to see how wide the Indian on top of the  mountain, so they can do their prospecting:  That's all  I could say, they just the same as anybody on top of the  mountain.  There's the creek right there and there's the  divide and now gets spread around on top of the mountain  like that, getting away.  Okay.  The other fellow run and the other fellow was the other  side of the mountain.  Okay.  Look at that Awiijii and that, you walk right here and  go right down to the cabin, and there it is again, still  the same thing.  Like that.  Was that the divide?  Yes.  No place for them, they didn't even -- that's the  line.  Okay.  Even as now on those line, on those line  thing. I made the land claims on top of  Now, you talked about Ninth Cabin Creek,  Cabin Creek?  Yes.  Is that part of Skawil's territory?  Yes.  They call the creek there, that's the line  thing, about the creek and the point, like that,  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189  still the same  the mountain.  do you know Ninth  of the  point cn'or  2-107  GUNANOOT,   D.  In Chief,  Mr.   Rush.  Q  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  of the mountain going like that, there's the nine and  the part of the mountain right there that goes down  to Awiijii.  Do you know, does Ninth Cabin Creek, does that have  a Gitksan name?  That's up to the people up to Eighth Cabin to talk about  that.  Because I got nothing to do about it.  I see.  There's quite a few of them around.  Yes.  They will be talking about her yesterday.  About the  people. Glen Vowell asking about that line.  I told them  I don't know about that but as far as I know is that  one is talking about the middle name of that creek, goes  down to Seventh Cabin is Xsic/umbat they call that.  Eight  Cabin.  They one of them right here. Eighth Cabin go  down this way, and there's one right here, go down he're,  and there's one about right here, goes down, that was  like from black water.  Can you tell us the Gitksan name of that creek again?  Which one?  I think you said it was Seventh Cabin Creek?  Seventh Cabin?  Seventh Cabin Creek.  That's Xsigumbat.  That woman who was here yesterday.  Okay.  That is Philip Wilson.  Who owned it?  Philip Wilson.  Philip Wilson.  Yes, but I forgot his Indian name.  Now, does Ninth Cabin Creek have another English name?  Ninth Cabin?  Yes.  Does that    I don't know.  That's what they call it, I don't know  English.  Okay.  As far as I know we call, used to call it ... doesn't  got the Bell Irving.  Each time I see it. Bell Irving,  up to Stewart one time.  Yes.  There's a man following that river right up. Bell Irving  River.  That's why they call that Bell Irving.  Is Ninth Cabin Creek -- you mentioned Salmon River to  us the last time, where's Salmon River?  Salmon River?  Well, that's came from Higgins Lake.  Higgins Lake?  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 Car Mr  2-108  GUNANOOT, D.  In Chief,  Mr. Rush.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Q  A  Q  Yes.  Where does that flow to?  It's going into Bell Irving.  Does it have a Gitksan name?  You mean that?  Salmon River, what's that name?  That was, belongs to Stikine long time ago.  So I don't  know very much.  Even that snow-man, I don't know very  much about it.  Okay.  Very close to Skawil's, I mean to Matt Higgins camp.  Goes right up there.  There's a creek, we used to call  it   What did you call it?  North Fork.  North Fork?  Yes.  Another one like that again.        'Ģ \  Was North Fork in Skawil's territory?  Yes.  But it's not on his map.  It's already belonged  --divides that and that Stikine.  That's why we're talking about -- asking me about this one that was Salmon  River, and that one. Bell Irving.  When the Old Man Skawi]  gets up to Awiijii, they got to go up there and make  a camp between those two places, Salmon River and that  Bell Irving.  But the Old Man is too old to go up, so  the reason why, when he's getting to Awaiijii, he set  to collect the beavers around, and he want to shoot the  mountain goat and anybody goes with him.  I shoot quite  a few around there for him, helping him out. ;Goats used to  pass you out when there's plenty.  I used to go around  there, shoot a bunch of moose for him, and go out there  himself and use for himself.  I'm going to -- I want to talk about another territory  now.  Yes.  I want to leave Skawil's territory and I want to ask  you about some territory over by Bear Lake.  About Bear Lake?  Yes.  Earlier you were telling us about Black Hat Tom?  Yes.  Now, you told me earlier today -- how did Black Hat Tom  get his name?  Just because he's always using that big black hat, big  cowboy black hat.  That's why.  Did you use to trap or hunt with him?  He's got plenty place around here.  One time.  Did he tell you about a place called the old rock with  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 Cf>r03r  2-109  GUNANOOT, D.  In Chief,  Mr. Rush.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  the arrows in it?  That's what they call it, Satsiis they call it.  They call it Satsiis?  Yes.  What does that mean, Satsiis?  Satsiis, the arrow -- I don't know what it means.  It's  the arrow, Arrow Rock.  Arrow Rock?  Yes.  Those old people they used to coming in from  Kiscjacjas and they get up to the corner on the other side  and they're going over there and they seen somebody arouncjl  so they cut down some wood, dried wood and making some  kind with raft and rafted it over to ....  What Lake?  Takla Lake.  Takla Lake?  Yes.  They still get on.  They get off on the other side  They don't want anybody to spot them so they get off 'Ģ  on  that raft and walk right on the big bone timber on  the other side.  There they go.  Canoe come around and  that point.  The captain was talking about, stop, and  they stop.  They never moved on and that canoe still  floated and stay there quiet, they didn't even move  around.  Still keep on doing that.  Finally, they turn  around, go back behind it, and the captain said "don't  move, you guys don't move".  They still keep on, the  same thing, just like a little bit of timbers.  That's  how it looks to that canoe.  They went back again, to  come back again, and they stopped.  "Why you being  stopped?"  It is still the same thing again.  Doesn't  move at all.  But there, they just didn't move.  Okay, still going to tell them again "don't move".  "They'll come back again".  They come back again.  He  figured, the captain knows how many.  Finally, they still  the same thing, stop right there, and turn around and  go back, and they come back so fast this time, this will  be the last one.  "So, don't move."  "Every one of you  don't move".  "They will go back and come back again."  "If we're still again, they'll go home."  That's already  finishing that, and the first fight up to that old  landing.  Old landing?  Yes.   And those people in the canoe they knows something's wrong with those people.  That's why the people  can't get over for their own village.  They go back.  Very short time they're they go, come back again.  Keep  on running.  Going north again.  Quite a few of them  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 C»r r,37  2-110  GUNANOOT, D.  In Chief,  Mr. Rush.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  left on the other side.  There's nothing but the -- what  is it now? The canoe that was nothing but wood box.  They making hole in .... they making the hole in every  one of them.  Those two people they know it was -- they  got cornered into the water, so the reason they jump  in the canoes and they're going right out and there goes  the water, those canoes.  Way out.  Every one of them  swimming around.  Nobody could make it on that dry land,  they kill themselves.  What did they do when they got to the landing?  What they do?  You mean they killed them those people  who were there.  Okay, who killed who?  Who did the killing?  Kiscjacras people.  Who did they kill?  I didn't even know their name.  It's too many of them.  They called them Gitanmaas. ' \  What did they call them, again?  Gitanmaas.  They all took canoes and every one of them,  they get off themselves, they save for themselves.  They  jump right in there.  The arrows aren't no good at all.  They didn't use the arrows.  They drowned themselves  in the lake.  There goes the arrows.  Where did they shoot    They shooting into the Satsiis.  I seen that Satsiis.  Did you see    When I was a kid.  It is still hanging just like that.  If you ever seen, cut up, those kind things like that,  you know, electric.  Cord?  Electric cord?  Yes.  White.  Exactly the same thing, about that long,  hanging down.  Black Hat Tom told me about.  You see  those white things hanging down there, that's the arrow.  Last time they made battle, long time ago.  Look how  it looks.  I'll find that out what -- what they call  it?  Some kind of -- any kind of dried weeds hanging  down.  Dried weeds hanging down.  I would have called that, if it wasn't the Old Man to  tell me about it, that was Satsiis.  You saw that there, did you?  I think that was Tsiis they call that.  How many arrows were there?  That's quite a bunch.  That's quite a bunch.  They don't  need it any more.  They just playing with the arrows.  That's why they shot them up there?  Yes.  They cleaned the people around.  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 CaTr)3T  2-111  GUNANOOT,   D.  In Chief,  Mr.   Rush.  Q  A  0  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  What was the name of the lake that this happened on?  What I'm talking about now?  Yes.  The lake?  That was -- I think that is what they call it is Takla:  Lake, they call it.  I only know what they call the peopl^  around there, Gitanmaas.  Did the Hudson's Bay Company some time after, did they  have a house in that area?  Maybe, I don't know.  I was being around there but two  or three times after I'm coming to be a young fellow  anyway.  Hudson Bay was there and McCorkan whose got  the store there, two stores.  That's where they got those  shops around the back there, that's where they get the  supplies for everything.  We run out of some fruit, me  and my brother Alec and Charlie, because the three of  us have been travelling around together, and that was  making a joke around any place where any camps we found,  there goes the  , making awful funny story.  After the people were killed there, did the Kiscjagas  people get some territory?  They don't bother about it.  What was the territory in there?  That's all, that some of those people they came from  Babine and Xskiigimlaxha.  But when the Gitanmaas were killed    Yes.   That's them there now.  I met some of them at  the time when me and ....  Black Hat?  Yes.  Black Hat Tom?  NO.  I already through with Black Hat Tom.  When me and  Neil went up there.  Oh yes.  I met quite a few of them around there.  They're from  Gitanmaax.  The old people.  They're all young.  They  call us   but not, I told them, what is everyone  talking about.  I can't even say anything about you  people.  If I leave you guys, I go down to Kiscjagas and  I'll show you the old trails when I was a little kid.  Go down to Cottonwood, I'll show you, that's my grandfather's old trail.  It's all blazed up for good many  many years ago.  I am going to say this belonged to the  people.  That's all I have to do, just following the  old blazing again.  They were telling us about them  going up another call last August but Neil get the answer  for that.  Been up to Stewart too about another thing.  Just before we leave Takla Lake, the Takla Lake territory!.  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 Cf>r 037  2-112  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief,  Mr. Rush.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  forgot.  Q  A  Q  A  did your mother have territory up there?  That was way up there but we just let it go.  What was the name of her territory?  Oh I forgot now.  Used to call it -- gee, I  There's Paul Jacks trapline around there.  Paul Jack's?  Yes.  Yes?  That goes down to that creek where you going into Bear  Lake, and there goes Sustut.  Sustut?  Yes.  There's Sustut right there and -- gee, I forgot.  Does it run into Bear Lake?  No.  My mother belonged to that creek, is going down  out to the head of the ... wait now.  Was it called Tootee Creek?  That's right, yes.  That's Tootee. \  Yes?  Yes, that's my mother, all of that creek.  How did she get it?  I told them, that was — belongs to Tootee's father and  his father died and he finished there, around there,  and just the same as up to which they call Tsil Tsila,  same thing again.   They got it to Tootee.  Really ...  those too many people from that Takla Lake goes up from  that to that creek.  Me and my dad goes up there and  we watching everything and nothing but camps and some  blazes where they camping, and we run into Bear Lake  Charlie.  He's the one telling us about, you guys are  too late, if you only come here a few years ago, you  would have seen the beaver at that creek.  Just like  the lake.  How did your mother get the territory at Tootee?  Tootee?  How did she get it?  That is what I mean.  I don't know.  But she's doing  owning that.  Some get, have sisters around there, also  back at home, but the regular father is into Kisgacjas  which is Tsil Tsila.  But Tsil Tsila returned to the  family all right but she don't need it any more.  She    she finished, her father, and spend whole lot of  money for groceries there.  My daughters of mine money  and everybody was thinking about his kind of striving  to get out there, because she's been running away from  the government.  Not only does she got that but bundles  of fur, just give it to her, from way down there, ....  in this building here, there's the store here, big store  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 CarQ3:  2-113  GUNANOOT, D.  In Chief,  Mr. Rush.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  belong to C.B. Smith.  He knows my father.  Anything  that my father want, just let it go.  Don't care about  it.  They buying furs for him and Margaret, when she  was a little wee girl, she's one think of all others  for a while.  When Maggie Wright heard about "where's  my daddy camping, told her Hudson Bay, goes up there.  Buy it all for.  Sometime .... out there, doing some  things, buying groceries.  He's got all kinds of money  because he's got thousand dollars for the grizzly on  his back.  Sometimes hired a man who had a horse up there,  Philip Morrison.  That's the man who used to pack the  groceries for him up to Kiscjacjas.  I read it on the newspaper that he was   I was laughing some time.  They didn't even know anything.  That's all he cares  about.  That's quite a bunch of them.  Even when he got  out, I got — he's got some of the horses up to George  Barns, 27 head of horses, bringing some to Bear Lake.\  Got a little house over there.  Made some kind of logs.  They get something.  There's a man from Bear Lake goes up to where the  Stikine people live.  They tell these people Simon's  up there, where the grocery, everything we need, we go  up there and buy, groceries, what we want, plenty tea,  sugar. Tobacco.  Chewing tobacco.  They go for that.  I don't know how many cases of big tobacco.  They just  buy it right out.  Did you chew tobacco as a boy?  Eh?  Did you chew tobacco as a boy?  Oh yes.  David, who told you about the battle with the Gitanmaas?  Gitanmaas?  Who told you about that?  Even my mother, my grandmother, even Black Hat Tom, we  was talking about that.  His wife, Maryanne, that's what  his wife's name, Maryanne.  How long ago did the battle with the Gitanmaas happen?  Oh gee, maybe quite a long time.  I think that was awful  long time.  Getting too old now, for me.  David, I am going to ask you about something else now.  I want to ask you about a couple of feast books that  you have.  Do you remember I showed you the    Oh yes.    showed these to you today?  Oh yes.  I've got some copies of  these  feast books and you've  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-114  GUNANOOT,  In Chief,  Mr. Rush.  D.  got the real ones at home?  Q     Right.  Just let me show you these.  The first one's  just named "DAvid Gunanoot, 1982, Alex Gunanoot".  A     Yes.  Q     Was a feast book that was kept for your brother's feast,  Alex?  A     Yes.  That's what I spent.  Q     This records what you spent, is it?  A That's right.  Just a record of what I did.  Q     Now, who did the writing on this book?  A     I think that was -- I forgot now -- that was Maisie,  I forgot.  Q     Okay.  A     Maybe he'll remember.  Q     What's the Gitksan name for the person who does the  writing in the book?  A     Which one? .    \  Q     What's the Gitksan name for the person who writes in  the book?  A T'imisit.  MR. PLANT:  Can I have that name again?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. RUSH:  Q     Is it T'imisit?  A     Yes, T'imisit.  Just what they do, look after, T'imisit.  Q     That's what Veronica is here.  A     Yes.  MR. RUSH:  I'm going to have this copy of David Gunanoot, 1982,  Alex feast book marked as an exhibit.  THE WITNESS:  I don't even know what I put on that.  Look how  much I spend on my costs.  Who got some of my groceries  up to Smithers some time.  That didn't even go in that.  MR. RUSH:  Just wait a minute.  THE WITNESS:  It's all right.  MR. RUSH:  We won't take that into account now.  Just pause  a moment here, David, while we get this marked as an  exhibit.  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION    EXHIBIT No. 1 - Feast book entitled "David  Gunanoot, 1982, Alex Gunanoot".  SHORT  RECESS  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 car 03;  2-115  GUNANOOT, D.  In Chief,  Mr. Rush.  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Q  Well, we can start again, after our break, David.  I  wanted to ask you about the feast book.  You were telling  us who the person was that wrote the feast book;  can  you give us her name again?  Which one?  I think you said her name was Mersey, was it?  Or Mercy?  Maisie.  What was her last name?  I forget again.  Was it Kusick, Mercy Kusick?  Yes, Kusick.  This was at Alex Gunanoot's feast, was it?  Yes.  What happened at Alex Gunanoot's feast?  He just died.  He died, I can't do anything about it,  so I put the feast up.  I'm the one putting that feasvt.  You put up the feast? v.  Yes.  At this feast    Yes.    was there a name given at this feast?  I should have got that name but I don't know.  I was  kind of upset quite a bit about for everything.  Of cours£  I know I was only the one, Charlie was sick himself.  Simon was sick by himself.  And now just the same thing.  This is what I was thinking about.  Alex died and I should  have got that name and keep it into myself again.  What name was that?  Muut.  You had a feast when Charlie died too, didn't you?  That's right, yes.  There's another feast book here, it's the second one  called "1983 Charles Gunanoot"?  That's right.  This was the feast book that was prepared for his feast  too, was it?  That's right.  Do you know who did this one? Who wrote this?  Still the same.  The same.  I am going to ask that this be marked as the next  exhibit.  She's the one looking after those things like that.  Still writing everything.  They just coming in and she  write in down.  She recorded all the money coming in, did she?  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 cnr oar  2-116  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief,  Mr. Rush.  A     Yes.  Q     Did she record the money that was given out?  A     Some of them -- they taking some and doing that, but  not as good as her.  She's only the one that can do it.  Looking after the names, Indian names too for each one.  MR. RUSH:  You can this as Exhibit 2.  Just for the sake of the record, I provided copies  to Mr. Plant of Exhibits 1 and 2.  --- OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  'Ģ-- EXHIBIT No.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Feast book entitled  "1983 Charles Gunanoot"  BY MR. RUSH:  Qavid, did your grandfather take the name of  Xskiigimlaxha? . v  Yes.  Okay.  My grandfather take the Xskiigimlaxha after the Old  Xskiigimlaxha got shot, and after my dad's father died  on the way towards Bowser.  When he died and my father  packed him up to Bowser Lake.  He tell my father he wants  to be buried at that nice looking point up to Bowser  Lake.  My father did like he said.  He buried him at  that point which is Graveyard Point now.  Where is Graveyard Point?  Graveyard, that's Bowser Lake.  You told us about Awiijii Creek and Awiijii Mountain,  how did Awiijii get its name?  That's Stikine.  That's awful long story, if I ever told  you about that.  What does Awiijii mean?  Awiijii?  Yes.  You can walk up the mountain and whistle.  It means whistling, does it?  Yes.  Okay.  But for the story.  This kid used to make little    as a mountain goat.  Only cut it quite short, I was going  to tell you about the woman about got the baby boy to  come to her.  This woman telling her mother what to do  if I'm dead and the baby is coming after I'm dead.  Look  after the baby, and very nicely, and when you guys going  to move, moving the camp, pack the baby and go up ahead  of those people.  You got to go ahead with the baby.  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 oa'03r  2-117  GUNANOOT,   D.,  In Chief,  Mr.   Rush.  Q  A  When you ending the trail, walk a little farther  up and they'll build you a camp up there.  Do it every  time.  Don't let them go by and camp ahead of you.  The  baby's got to go ahead.  Finally, he said if you are hungry in the winter,  if you're hungry in the winter time you had better --  the baby, he will tell you what to do and you better  do like he tell you.  They didn't do it.  In the winter comes, same thing, baby going ahead  and finally they run out of meat.  That's all they live  on meat, meat.  They don't care about fish.  Dried meat,  dried fish, doing that every time, even those berries.  They dried berries, any kind of berry, that made that.  Winter time comes and finally they're hungry, run  out all the dried meat.  The baby talked to the old lady,  you better go out teach this man, collect one net at  each, anybody who get a net and take me out where the,  beaver is.  That's what the baby said to the old woman.  So the old woman put the little baby on her back  and go around the camp, anybody got a net give it to  her.  Pack all the net and go out.   Anywhere beaver  born is, they dropped that net where the beaver in,  dropped the net in.  They go to the other.  One net a  week.  Go home.  Before anybody get up in the morning, went out again  pulled those nets out, and there's — take the beaver  right out.  Goes to the other and takes the beaver there  Every one of those nets got one beaver on each net. Go  down to the camps again.  You better go down and pick  up your net, you guys know which one's your net.  That's  the time to go down, pick up the beaver.  Still packing  the beaver -- I mean the baby.  Finally, they're still all gone and they're still  camping at that flat of the -- Awiijii Flat they call  it now.  They're camping and then seen the mountain goats  quite a bunch of them up there.  Those kids are playing,  that little baby still is -- comes to a little bigger.  He was happy when he is playing with those kids.  They  take one of the kids which they call the Nigwoots  gwahabasxw — I remember that name — Nigwoots gwahabasxw  That's some kind of the father of dried grass.  The father of dried grass?  Yes.  They used to be a baby.  This time they got made  for what that kid told her.  You will be happy.  You  will be happy.  That is what he said, and he said, you  will be happy when you eat those mountain goats up there.  That baby would get made, start coming back to the camp  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 Car 037  2-118  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief,  Mr. Rush.  to the mother and the grandmother, crying. Go  out and  take the chips, chips of wood, and fix it up.  Take a  knife and take it up.  They made a little cut like that  and there goes, is going right at the middle of that,  that flat little open whooooooooo. There's the mountain  goes up, still go up, mountain goes up and there goes  the hunter, still following the goats.  Finally, those  mountain goats march into that big rock, Awiijii Mountain.  There goes a kid over there, all those goats went in  to there.  Finally, they give up. They didn't even know what's  wrong with the mountain. It's getting higher and higher.  Try to go and the kid comes back with that little piece  of wood and fell back to the grandmother crying. Crying.  Grandmother trying ask, try and ask what's wrong? What's  wrong with you? He wouldn't talk. He wouldn't talk  at all.  He don't want to tell what he's troubling.  v  All the trappers -- I mean hunters, all comes back  and they — the old woman runs around to those camps  and there's the one, one little boy, jumps right out  and she point "that's him", telling him he'll be happy  when they eat those mountain goats that they shooting  up there.  That's why he went home.  They catch it now, and all those people come back  and try to make it.  Everything they made.  Pans made  by the caribou.  All designed.  The coat all designed.  Make it up good.  Those arrow and bow, and those tomahawk,  they finish that.  They give it to him.  Finally, he  start fine, really fine.  When he sees that bow and arrow  He takes that bow and arrow and got his target, bang,  right at the bulls-eye.  Finally, he runs back to the grandmother, okay,  teach, okay, you better tell those people to go up and  shoot those goats this time.  After that, there he goes,  he takes that wooden goat he made, whooooooo, no, and  he returned and come down this time.  Swing it down and  there it comes, the mountain goat comes down, and even  the mountain comes down.  Comes down.  Comes down.  Didn  even get out eyes used to it .... it's still there.  But they got goats all right.  There it goes.  They take  that, it goes, gives them little slap on the rump to  talk to that kid again.  That's the time they knows that had saved their  lives for that winter, catching all those beavers, what  they eaten.   This time, when about those goats, get  those goats down again.  That is why they call it  Anbaxgitwink.  Anbaxsitwink, when it starts whooooooo.  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 Car 03,-  2-119  GUNANOOT, D.  In Chief,  Mr. Rush.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  how it goes up farther.  And now when they want some,  they swing it down, like that, and goats come down and  the mountain comes down.  That's why they call it Awiijii  That's finish of the story.  The little wood chips that the baby had ....  Yes.  .... did you say that the baby made those into the shape  of a goat?  Yes.  Does Awiijii mean whistling up the mountain?  Yes, that he whistles up.  Call them back in the winter  time.  Who told you this?  That means, that is what that called, Gwalaxgyem.  Vhat story?  Gwalaxgyem.  On account of the Stikine people there  telling ; the stories they could do, just like some krnd  of thing like a real story, means story on the books  like that, that's the one.  Who told you the Gwalaxgyem story?  Eh?  Who told you this?  Who said this to you?  Who said it to me?  Yes.  Who told you about Awiijii?  Awiijii?  Yes.  That's, I didn't even toll but the Old Skawil used to  tell me so many, many times about that.  Even my grandfather, my father's father, used to talk about that befor£  he died.  Not only them, they been telling the story,  all the people around to Galdo'o and they split it up,  all the story about this kid was going after the    When were you last up on Skawil's territory to trap?  Eh?  When did you trap up on Skawil's territory the last time?  Oh gee, I forgot.  Can't even tell you.  After my daddy  beat out the law, that's nineteen -- gee, I forgot now.  Who's using Awiijii territory today?  Johnny Wilson.  Is he   He's the one using that blanket of Skawil.  What's his name?  Still the same name as Xskiigimlaxha.  Are there any white people using the territory? You're  shaking your head no?  Just a loan going to both of them, is what they said  to me.  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-120  GUNANOOT, D.  In Chief,  Mr. Rush.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR.  MR.  Are there any white people up at Gwit ts'ilaasxwt?  Gwit ts'ilaasxwt, no.  Are there white people at T'amsimiloo?  No.  It's no good for them.  I want to ask you about your father, Simon, for a moment.  I want to ask you about your dad.   After Mcintosh and  LeClare died, why did your father go into the bush, and  take you and the family?  The lawyer said to him that was very good, that's why  he beat the case.  You shoot the grouse, don't you, and  now you wish the grouse flew off and go.  Which grouse  you going to shoot next.  PLANT:  Your turn!  RUSH:  I can't answer that one.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION ' \  BY MR. RUSH:  When he left he took you and the family there into the  bush?  I was with him.  And so was Peter Haimadim, wasn't he?  Yes, that's right.  Sometimes we camp, later on we don't  care about anything at all but we three want to see those  any kind of .... we used to make a snare and snare them.  Make a nice soup out of them.  Why did your father come back? He gave himself up, didn*  didn't he?  Yes.  Scared of the government, that's why.  Talking  about him.  He scared of the law, hang him up, that's  why he come in.  Okay, go on, hang me up.  They take  him out July, August, September, October when he was  -- when the law take himself up, there, put this on,  you go out, you free.  The jury tell him, Simon is not  guilty for anything.  He's got to left.  They shoot his  house.  He dies 13 years ago, what have you guys waiting  for.  Got nothing to say.  That's why the lawyer stands  up, Stewart Henderson, that's his lawyer.  He shook his  hands ...  Q     Did you ....  A     Not to be bothered any more.  --- OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  After Simon was released from jail and he was found not  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-121  GUNANOOT, D.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Simon have?  Axgagoodit.  A chief's name?  of Geel?  His uncle  his name on  your dad?  Geel --  him.  no, I mean  guilty, he came back to Kispiox?  He came back to Hagwilget, come back to his ranch up  there about three mile.  Is that An lav;?  Yes.  Did Simon take aname?  Did Simon take the name of Geel?  What's that?  What Gitksan name did  That's what they call  Axgagoodit?  Yes.  Did he also take the name  Well, he supposing to be.  'Wiiseeks is the one puts  'Wiiseeks put the name on  Yes.  Now, when he did that, what was the hunting.territory v  that your dad got? ''Ģ  That was that one, that was, he got that groundhog.  He's the one he got first.  Was that on Groundhog Mountain?  Yes.  Where is that?  It's up to Groundhog Mountain.  I got nothing to say,  there's only one Groundhog Mountain around.  I can't  make another.  No.  Is it close to any river?  Close to the head of the Skeena.  Close to the head of the Skeena?  That's part of the head of the Skeena.  Did your father hunt up there?  Oh yes.  He used to camp there when I was little, just  like new born baby.  What is the Gitksan name for Groundhog Mountain?  Do  you remember?  What they call it, Groundhog?  Yes.  Skaniist Gwiikxw.  Skaniist Gwiikxw?  Yes.  Now, is Groundhog Mountain close to one of the cabins  on the Telegraph Creek?  That's way over.  A way over?  Yes.  Now,   did you travel  with your  father  to other  territories,  other hunting grounds  owned by Geel?  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-122  GUNANOOT, D.  In Chief,  Mr. Rush.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Geel?  Geel.  Yes.  Too many.  Own land the head of the Skeena.  Down  to Babine, all over the place.  What's the name of the some of Geel's hunting grounds?  Well, that's, after my dad died he took Geel -- I mean,  what's his name now? Walter Harris.  He's Geel now?  Yes.  He's the one, Geel now.  He's the one looking  after that.  He's supposing to be there but I don't know.  I just want to ask you about your dad's -- when your  dad was Geel?  Yes.  What other territories did Geel have then, back in that  time?  Did he just have Groundhog Mountain?  Yes.  He did get that Groundhog Mountain and we was only  passing there once in a while. , (  Okay. *'ñ†  Because he say I get no chance to go there.  I've got  quite a bunch of trap shot up to Bowser Lake.  They only  buy those traps but they want those traps, but he died  before he move it up to Groundhog.  Okay.  We were camping through that tunnel.  The tunnel right  here and the creek, the river goes down.  We bought into  camp there but that goes up there.  There's a tunnel  right there where they find that coal.  They found coal up by that tunnel, did they?  Yes.  We used to go, see what they're talking about.  Is that up    Took it up and threw it in the fire.  There it goes.  Short time.  Nothing left.  All burnt up, .  Is that up by Klappan?  It's not Klappan, over on the other side.  It's over on the other side?  Yes.That's where those -- where that graveyard is, is  Klappan. That's why the Stikine call it Klappan, lot  of people being buried there.  I see.  Even Haimadim's wife was buried there too.  Was that Peter Haimadim's wife?  Yes.  What was her name?  Christine.  I want to ask you about Oyee now.  Oyee?  Yes.   That's Joshua McLean,   you have  told us?  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-123  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief,  Mr. Rush.  A     Yes.  Q     Where is Oyee's hunting territory?  A     Right up to Milky Lake and Xsigwingyilaa they call it.  Q     Xsigwingyilaa?  A Yes.  Q Where is Milky Lake?  A That's right ahead, and you go that way and that's  Xsigwingyilaa they call.  Q What do they call it?  A Xsigwingyilaa.  Q Oh, Xsigwingyilaa, yes. Right.  A And that Neil Sterritt too, and this is Xsigwingyilaa  and Neil Sterritt on the other side.  Q Neil Sterritt is on the other side?  A Yes.  The old Man.  'Wiik'aax.  Q "Wiik'aax, that's Neil Senior? ' \  A No, the old man.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Somebody  Who was Oyee before Joshua McLean?  My brother, Fred.  Fred.  Died a long time ago.  Who was Oyee before him?  Before?  Before Fred?  Before Fred, that was the one shot at Bear Lake.  shot him.  Been drinking uuk.  Drinking what?  Home-made beer.  They call it uuk.  Uuk.  Must have been during the prohibition.  Samuel Brown.  Yes.  That was Oyee.  Is Milky Lake, is that close to Bear Lake?  Not far.  It's only one, you go down in it. Island Lake  right there and there's the creek comes down.  What's the name of    That's Xsa'andososxw, where they used to get those red  -- what they call it?  Red clay.  Clay?  Yes, red.  Really red.  It's some of the old woman's  long time ago.  They used to fix it up, mix it up with  the mountain goat.  They fixing up the mountain goat j  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 :fT-Q3.-  2-124  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief,  Mr. Rush.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  fat, nice and white, and mix this with that clay.  They  use it for    For colour for the cheeks?  Yes.  Like rouge?  Yes.  Can you tell us the boundaries of Oyee's territory?  That's quite a way.  Straight down.  There's only one  creek comes down there and that was another,  Xsigwingyilaa they call it.  That belongs to -- they  all died anyway -- I don't know who owns that.  Below  that is, belongs to somebody else.  That was still Oyee  looking after this, and Xsu'wiiaks still belongs, and  they call that mountain there Gwiiyoo, where they used  to shooting bunch of caribous.  They call it Gwiiyoo?  Yes.  And that, the other one there, the steep side. \  The mountain was like that but there it goes, like that.  Right on the other side, like that, that's why they call  it 'Niihahlagyoot.  What's that again?  'Niihahlaagyoot.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  A  Q  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Have you finished describing Oyee's boundary?  That's right.  Approximately.  Who has the boundary to the south of Oyee? Who has the  hunting ground south of him?  That was Jack Wright's father but he died long time.  It's only one, two of them alive.  Thomas Wright and  Edward Wright, still alive.  That's their father own  that place you're talking about.  Was he a simooget?  Which one?  Jack Wright's father?  Yes.  What was his name?  I forget again.  I remember   Welix, that's the one.  No, I forget that.  Okay.  That's all I remember.  Another out there, man's name,  Basaxxw.  Second chief of his.  What's old man's name?  Basaxxw.   They used to call him Basaxxw shot.  Shoots  any kind of thing like that.  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-125  GUNANOOT, D.  In Chief,  Mr. Rush.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Let me   did Haiwas, did he have territory up by  Bear Lake?  Haiwas?  It used to be.  It used to be   but my mother finished  his funeral when the Haiwas died, that's my mother's.  Supposing to be my grandfather's Haiwas which own that  mountain Tsil Tsila but that Charlie, Bear Lake Charlie  supposing to be there, got that place, poor, doesn't  have anything to spread around that's what she  should do, and he would own that land, Tsil Tsila, but  he didn't so my mother finishes on father's funeral and  paying all the expenses.  That's why the chief give it  to my mother.  Was Haiwas related to Tom Luulak?  Yes.  How were they related?  Some kind of some uncle of his.  Uncle? ' \  thing.  is same  same?  Luulak,  that's another.  That's Haiwas.  Yes. Melulek  Melulek's the  Yes.  And Tom  Is Tom Luulak    Big chief is Melulek.  Okay.  I don't know him but he is, Tom Luulak is Melulek what  they call it maybe.  I don't know.  I know it's regular  one, is Melulek.  I think they got two again as Tom  Luulak.  Luulak they call it.  Is Tom Luulak, is he related to Sam Luulak?  Oh yes.  He's with Kathleen.  Her name was Kathleen.  What's Kathleen's name?  Kathleen?  That was -- she used to be Melulek but after  he moved down here, and that William Jeffrey's wife takes  that Melulek but he move it down to the coast.  Didn't  even stay.  So I don't know.  He's not very nice that  way for the family.  Is Kathleen, her last name is Jackson, is it?  Yes.  Is she related to Sam Luulak?  Kathleen Jackson?  Yes.  How are they related?  Where?  How is Kathleen related to Sam Luulak?  Well, he brought her to Kiscjagas.  I think it  Kathleen's uncle. I think.  That's what it is.  I just wanted to ask you, you told us when we  taking the evidence today that Haiwas was your mother's  father?  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189  was  started car 037  2-12B  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief,  Mr. Rush.  Q  A  A That's right.  Q What was his English name?  A Which one?  Q Haiwas.  A Thomas.  Q Thomas?  A McLean.  Q McLean?  A Yes.  Short little old man.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  THE WITNESS:  That's what they call Two Foot Lou.  MR. RUSH:  Two Foot Lou.  Q     Now, when did Thomas McLean get the name of Haiwas?  A     Which one?  Q     When did Thomas McLean get the name Haiwas?  A     I don't know.  My mother going to take the name and the  book put that name on Thomas McLean.  That's why my mothe  get that Tsil Tsila at that time.  Q     What    A     Before my -- they call it Amnagwootxw.  Q     What do they call Amnagwootxw?  A     Amnagwootxw that means it's given to my mother,  finished all those expenses, like I did to Alex  the same thing.  Amnagwootxw.  Okay.  That's Amnagwootxw.  When my mother died, before he died,  he knows he's getting shorter, last trip to Tsil Tsila.  We camp across and he show to us, like what this mountain  that's belongs to me, when I'm died, you guys, you don't  have to take her any more.  But I'm still alive you guys  go and traps as much as you can right now.  All open  to you.  I own this, only given to me on account of I  finished my father's funeral.  Everything.  That's why  I get that.  Q     What was the name of the mountain?  A     Tsil Tsila.  Q     Tsil Tsila?  A     Yes.  Q     Again in Gitksan?  A     That's what they call it, Tsil Tsila?  Q     You mentioned Bear Lake Charlie?  A     Well, supposing to be there.  Supposing to be there when  that old man died.  Q     What old man?  A     My grandfather.  But he has not showed up.  When we was  He  That's  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-127  GUNANOOT, D.  In Chief,  Mr. Rush.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  camping there, we was asking, we was going to move away,  why don't you move down?  You heard your uncle died,  why don't you come down?  What did he say, just about  cried, and my mother was telling him, he shouldn't say  anything about.  You didn't even show up so I'll spend  quite a lot of money for your uncle.  You didn't even  showed up.  Show up for    Now you want to be owner of this, and this was given  to me.  He was just crying.  What didn't he show up for?  He should have showed up for, to let the chiefs see that  was to finish that funeral and things like that.  Whose funeral?  My mother's father.  Now was Bear Lake Charlie related to Haiwas?  Yes. : ,  Do you know how?  I think he was going up there.  He didn't even come down  to Kiscjacjas, where I was, where his uncle live.  He wants  to get that mountain back for nothing.  That's why my  mother was mad at him.  David, I want to ask you now about the territory of  another one of your relatives, Peter Haimadim?  Haimadim.  Where was his hunting territory?  They call it .... I remember that .... I remember but  I still forget it again.  Klacjoohla.  Again?  Klagpohla.  OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  THE WITNESS:  Maybe that's main thing there.  Around there  Klacjoohla, it's hardly nothing around there.  It's nothing  but purple mostly what they got around there.  It's only  once in a while you can see those jack pines up there.  MR. RUSH:  Say the    THE WITNESS:  That's why they call it Klagpohla.  That's Stikine  words.  It's given to, what's the time, when that was  given to my uncle, Peter.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. RUSH:  Q Where is Klacjoohla?  Where's it located?  A Located?  Q Where's  it hear?  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 caro3r  2-128  GUNANOOT,    D.  In Chief  Mr.   Rush  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  That was quite a way.  There's Thutade and there's  Klagoohla way up.  That's what they call that lake there.  It's close to Thutade though?  Yes.  Close to Klagoohla.  Now, did Peter Haimadim have any other territory?  No.  That's only one.  Now, does 'Niikyap have rights to use Haimadim territory?  'Niikyap got too much.  Can 'Niikyap -- can you go -- can 'Niikyap use Haimadim's  territory?  Sure they can.  They would not like.  Xsigwingyilaa,  even Xsigwingyilaa, same thing.  Can anyone who is not a member of 'Niikyap's house use  the territory?  Anyone from 'Niikyap's house can go up there.  But if they're not from 'Niikyap's house?  No, not that.  One of the Sampsons is the one that uses  Haimadim now.  He's the one that go up there.  Can white people go up and use it?  Way up maybe.  I don't know.  If the white people do  that, they can take his traps and give it to the game  warden, and what he's going to do?  Send to jail, and  no more trapping for him.  There's line fish right here,  there's the line of fish right here.  Now, I drift my  net, go right over there.  Crossing their boundary.  They'll pick up my net and my boat, take it down to my  manager, pick him up, no more fishing.  I lose net, I  lose the boat, I lose all the money I make.  That's the  same as the trapline.  Do you know when the first white -- were you ever told  when the first white man came into    Bear Lake?  Yes.  Yes.  That's the first 'Niikyap, his people, when the  people from Kisgagas went up to Bear Lake, and there's  white people there.  Well, they find that Hudson Bay  was there and out in to the yard, big high fence around,  sharp on the end.  Sharp on the end?  Yes, nobody can go over.  And there's that corner of  the house, like that, and there's right at the corner,  and concrete, and there's the corner there, and there's  guard there.  Old man.  When the people from Kisaagas  get back to Kisgagas, they tell what they see about this.  And Melulek get a nice name for that, for that fence,  and he's got a name for it, Tsimyes.  They made it --  they use it as a big chief, Tsimyes.  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 car 037  2-129  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief,  Mr. Rush.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  What did that mean?  It means nobody can touch anything what is Tsimyes.  That's the same, 'Niikyap's brother for that.  Everything,  really the house which I still remember but I got too  much to remember.  You've got a lot to remember.  Yes.  David, when you told us about the battle or fight between  the people of Kisgagas and the Gitanmaas at Bear Lake  -- no, at Old Landing?  Oh yes.  Where did the Gitanmaas people come from?  What people do you say?  The Gitanmaas, was that the name?  Yes, Gitanmaas.  Where did they come from?  That's their own place.  They're still the^e now.  What   They never bothered them no more.  Who are they related to?  I didn't even know that.  Are they related to the Babine people?  Didn't know that.  I think that's all mixed up now, I  think.  That's Babine and that, what you call them. Old  Landing.  I don't know what they call that lake, for  their language, but that's all I know is about that,  what they call those people right there, that was  Gitanmaas people.  Maybe that's what they call that.i  Okay. " ]  Lake or Gitanmaas.  You told us that the Kiscjacjas people had canoes?  Yes.  They only using raft going over.  It was a raft, was it?  Yes, and they run away with that canoes, and the rest  of them making holes on the bottom.  Okay.  At camp, everybody jumps right in and battle it out and  they all drowned outside.  Okay.  That's how they get killed and they didn't even use those  arrows to kill those people, they drowned them.  They  pulled those canoes, which would be nine, come around.  They don't need those arrows no more so they shooting  in to that rock which they call Satsiis.  What kind of canoes were the holes pushed in to?  Well, they said it was a bark.  A bark canoe?  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-130  GUNANOOT, D.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  their land  hundred. For, like me  That's not long houses  into Kisgagas.  He don  Yes.  I don't know what kind of bark they use.  It's  easy to cut it.  David, did anybody from 'Niikyap's house sell  or give their land to the white people?  To the white people, when?  Anywhere?  Did 'Niikyap give his land away to the white  people? You're shaking your head no?  No.  I remember what I call my house.  Tsimganootsenex.  Your house?  Yes, that's 'Niikyap's house, Tsimganootsenex.  How many years has 'Niikyap owned Tsimganootsenex?  Long, long time.  You know, I started about that ...  they were just like in a dream.  I don't know how many  to count that about that big raft,  when they moves down and moved  t like that Gwit ts'ilasxwt on  account of the woman was, just about killed them all  up there, and 'Niikyap don't like that, so reason why  he moved, and they moved into Kisgagas.  That's the time  they seen that big meadows, they call it Gwinwijix.  Yes.  And that Gwinwijix, that's where that bunch of groundhogs  ... they're going down besides that, and there's  T'amsimiloo, right there.  Yes.  Still keep following and going in and find trail from  Kisgagas.  Going down to that, they call it canyon --  Canyon Creek too, but it was different than up above  Kisgagas, there's another canyon.  Okay.  You think that happened some time after -- shortly  after the big raft?  Yes.  What is the big raft?  Big raft?  Yes.  That's what I told you before, just  that's what they are.  Wind there.  the dream for them, when they're just  they know they was on the raft.  They  like in the dream.  It seems to be in  like awaking and  all dream, they  that big raft  s Gitangasx,  they going  that's all  all right.  all dream was being tied together.  When  was crashed up alongside the river, that  where that happened.. They call it Gitangasx.  What are  to do?  They can't do anything about it, but  they do, eating raw fish.  Eating raw fish  That's what they say.  Finally, they all it Sagaitluugap was being there too  and 'Naxteext, that's from 'Niikyap's house, was there and  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-131  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q  A  I forget who is the other two.  And that's their own  loving country, that Nagun.  They used to going around  going up, top of the mountains, any place, where they  go.  They used to talk about roasting groundhog skin  there, groundhog, roast them against the fire.  That's  all they doing, making a happy time.  But come down,  come down to Gitangasx, there goes Nagun, was missing,  lost.  They didn't know where they go.  That's what they  say.  And there is Sagaitluugap, Nagun's mother, crying,  back and forth.  She asked about 'Naxteext and    She asked about what?  She asked those two cousins.  "No, I don't know, we don't  know, lost, we can't find them".  The other time and there comes Sagaitluugap with  his ganwelix, gadwelix they call it.  They make up some  kind of thing, it's like that ....  That's enough to  pack, and it's made to put huxs on it, to pack anything  you eat and what you can cover up yourself.  There goes   , lady cried, "There comes those two again".  "Hey,  Sagaitluugap, gala, a'xoon t'axiixoon hahlenisxa".  That  means, "Come over and have some fish".  Seems to be making  more fun of the old lady.  They still keep on going.  They ate the fish all right.  Take off.  Go up, they  watch.  I don't know.  They watch.  Maybe some of them  followed her out and she fixing up the camp, lot of wood.  And they followed again, there's another camp, still  the same thing, lot of wood, lot of something.  And that old woman was lost, gone, and gone for  a long time.  Finally, that old woman get out of the  mountain and there's the smoke.  There's the camp way  down, seen the smoke, kind of an area like a flat piece.  Now that's as far as she go.  She knows that's as far  as she goes, taking all those scrubby wood, scrubby pieces  up on top of the mountain and throw them right out.  Pile them up.  Still keep on doing that pile.  Piled  them right up, quite a bunch of them.  When he's ready  to go, just put the fire right under them, started out  nice.   Really big fire all right.  Go down the trail,  see his own trail and follows his own trail back, and  that camp she made a fire there too.  There he comes.  The people who running after her,  they get and they find that, and they wants to watch  but that means they still keep going and there's 'Niikyap  right there.  Seen that ... Sagaitluugap was coming back  all right.  Didn't even stop, passed those things.  'Niikyap said, "Look, that Sagaitluugap catch what she  want".  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 Coro3r  2-132  GUNANOOT, D.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  She already showed herself something up there and  that's why you see the people will come down here to  clean us out.  To clean us out right there.  So, come  on,  better tell everybody to come over.  And they cooking  some fish, anything what they can cook, and they call  everybody and they did come in all right.  But they didn't  even know what's wrong with 'Niikyap.  All they said  to her, talk it over.  After 'Niikyap kept taking all  his family out.  After they take out and there goes the  people, what is left at that Gitangasx, talk about, "Oh,  that old man is going crazy, ha-ha-ha", so they said  to 'Niikyap take it out.  They get to above  always crossing that .  there.  They used to  crossed it and catch  side and push it up,  way up, never  get some more  across, to go  Now go  to hook any  Galdo'o and there's a big log,  ... log both sides of the canyon  get that, a big piece of log.  They  it the other side, and catch this  push it up until they hang it up,  goes.  When 'Niikyap finds that, fix that,  wood, large size.  Put up railing to go  down to Galdo'o.  down through the canyon, no place for him  salmon ... any kind of fish in those days.  Haven't found anything around the shore so still keep  on going.  Go back again and cross that big log again.  Go down right -- at the left side go down.  They find  that which they call it a big spring, big spring.  I  don't know how big is that creek.  It was big creek all  right.  Then there was seen a lot of fish jaws hanging  up on the land and 'Niikyap talking about, that's what  they're talking about, Xsa'agasxw, this canyon down there.  "Well, we don't need to go down", so they're going up,  and that's the time they come out where that long(?)  meadow you've been asking me about, about that Gwinwijix,  and that big meadow full of groundhog.  When they seen that, they tell the people, his own  people who was with him, "When we get to Kisgagas , don't  any one of you don't mention about this groundhog for  the people because they look for it too.  Let's do something about it later.  We'll come back here and camp  here sometime." So they did too.  Right up there.  This  time they seen the groundhog and come down, come down  and there's the lake.  They didn't even know anything  about it, about T'imgano'ohlit.    It's called  T'imgano'ohlit, just over ....  They didn't even stop and go down to Kisgagas, look  for again, look for a place to fish for anything, fix  up a trap, a fish trap.  Not even for hooking fish,  nothing.  Or netting.  Nothing at all.  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-133  GUNANOOT, D.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q     David, we're going to have to stop here for just a minute  while they change the tape.  A     Yes.  Q     Can you just pause while he fixes the tape?  A     Go ahead.  --- OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. RUSH:  Q  David,  Gwi t ts  A  Yes.  Q  Okay.  want to  A  Yes.  I  Q  This is  A  When he  Q     You're going to take us to Gwit ts'ilasxwt?  A     That's where I'm at now.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. RUSH:_  would you go back and finish the story about  ilasxwt?  We've re-started the tape again, David.  Do you  just finish that story?  forget where I was.  when 'Niikyap got to Kisgagas?  get back to Kisgagas.  When he steps down to  Kisgagas, he looked into the canyon.  I know that Kisgagas  myself, because I've been there.  There's only one fish  trap there and that was his own family, Ralph's family.  That was 'Wiiseeks.  He's the one that get that fish  trap at Kisgagas.  But they did put it up, but not enough,  not enough.  And the old man tell his wife to fix up  his pack.  There goes 'Niikyap.  He's got enough to pack,  started up, get a lunch down there.  You know how the  rough water kind of sounds like a canyon.  He's going  down, no, it's no good. Still keep going like that, he  having a more nice time, then go down again.  Still keep  on doing that.  I used to think about that.  It was awful  tough for the old man above that Kisgagas, up and down  through the canyon.  Finally he stuck.  Haven't got any place to go now.  The canyon, just like that, so he just go down there.  Finally, he seen that Kisgagas river, which they call  it Xsugwinlik'i'insxw, they call that river.  The old  people.  That's the regular name, Xsugwinlik'i'iinsxw,  where the grizzly hangs around.  That's why they call  it Xsugwinlik'i'insxw. Get down there, and there's the  river right there, there's the rock right there, and  there's another one right there, and there's another  one right there.  There's a big flat rock right there.  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 Car 037  2-134  GUNANOOT, D.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  and they couldn't cross that Xsugwit ts'ilaasxwt.  They  haven't got that name that time.  They sit down, take their time, take it easy.  Eating  something what he could eat.  Take it easy, and watching  between those rocks.  There goes the fish, jump there,  go over there.  Short time, there goes another one, and  there goes another one, and there goes another one, and  there's a hole between another two rocks.  I got two,  what do I want, I don't need any more.    So just take  anything what he's got, cache it up, and take off and  go back.  Get into Kisgagas.  No trail up there at all but he's got a lot of young  people with him.  They don't care about that.  They just  change ... cutting those trails.  Camping some other  place.  On and on, I don't know how many days they taking.  They get to that Xsugwit ts'ilaasxwt.  When they get up  there, the old man didn't even waste anything.  He only  cutting all those things what they could use for the  fish traps, what that he knows.  Still keep on moving  and the young people getting ready for the big good size  pole, what they're going to use to get that fish trap out.  Talking about the old man, just about sleeping,  old man like that.  Still keep on, they're so tired,  always, can't hardly sleep at all.  Trying to finish.  Finally they finish it.  "Finished it", he said, "Oh,  I forgot this one.  I got to go out and get it.  There  goes another special trip".  Maybe sometimes it takes  him a day to find another piece he was looking for that  fish trap.  Finally ready, finish it all, and they push  it down and there comes the big fish, coming up this  way, and there it goes again.  Get stuck, the fish hit  this and got no place to go, jump, landed right into  where they dried up, there's somebody right in there.  Threw them right into another place on, way over where  they'll be dead.  They can't jump out of that.  In short time it's really filled up, short time,  about two days, they really fill up what they made for  smokehouse.  They dried fish, and still came out.  Finally  the old man talk about, "We got nothing to do if we could  get anybody to help us, it would be all right for us  if we take some people who need fish at Kisgagas".  So  the old man tell those nephews, I don't know how many  he send into Kisgagas, tell them "You better go down  to Kisgagas.  Don't let them cook.  You guys do the cooking, do the cooking and call those people around there.  When you're all sitting down eating, just about finished,  one of you stand up and tell them:  anybody want some  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 Cf>r03r  2-135  GUNANOOT, D.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  fish? We come down here to look for you guys to help,  to help us.  We got no place for fish.  We've got too  much fish up there.  If you want to come with us, put  up your hand.  There goes this one.  Short time, there  goes another one putting up their hand too.  There goes  another putting up their hand.  Three.  I don't know  how many been doing that.  Finally, the next day, all marching up.  When they  get to Gwit ts'ilaasxwt, that's the time they're all  busy.  That is all they using is those bark of the trees  to cover the top of the smokehouse.  Blue flies can't  get into the fish.  But still it all fill up with fish.  Quite a lot of people around there.  Finally, they starting making their cache.  They cache those.  They're making  the cache into the ground in those days, into the ground.  I don't know how it all decorated but fix it up nice.  Dried fish didn't spoil in there.  Finally what they  put in there still the same thing.  As long as little  too much air in it, it always comes to mouldy.  They  knows that, that's why they really keep clean.  They  still keep it, go back, and I don't know how long but  they go to ... .         That is what his name.  He haven't got no name at all.  'Niikyap was talking about that little lake, maybe  it's a nice place to build a trap for trout.  If we catch  trout there it would be very nice but that is funny --  that's a funny little lake.  Sometimes it's all marsh  on top of that lake.  Seems to be no lake and there goes  that man, still keep.  Finally they finish it.  Finished  his trap.  It's only hanging down like that ... but they  can't help, they already knows that was that race --  that rake -- that little lake can race up so fast, so  they scared of it.  That's where they camp, there's  Anmootixs, still no name yet.  They got to get that fish  trap, trout trap.  That's all they use.  Good for trout.  They pack that -- pack his trout down and put it down  where you're going to get the trout.  Still keep doing  Finally, next morning, the man goes down to look  at his fish trap.  He take that thing, he pull it out  and there, there he goes.  That what they call  T'imgano'ohlit .... they build it right into ...  That  fellow is just taking that fish trap up and dump that  fish out.  The water comes up, right behind, and now  that's the time the man get his name.  The water, the  water was going, "Saigyuksxwn axboo'o tk'ihlxw".  "Axboo'o  scared the children", this is what that water says.  Well, that's the time he get the name Axboo'o.  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-136  GUNANOOT, D.  In Chief  Mr. Rush  Q     Can we stop here, David?  A .   Yes.  Q     Maybe we should stop for the day.  It's 4.15 now and it's  perhaps time that we take a break and start again tomorrow  at 9.30.   Would that be all right for you?  A     Yes.  In the morning?  Q     Yes.  A     Maybe I could stand it!    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. RUSH:  Let's stop for the day.  Thank you, David.  --- PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4.20 p.m.  TO BE RESUMED 9.30 a.m. WEDNESDAY, 14 MAY, 1986  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript!  of the proceedings herein, to the  best of my skill and ability.  VH-Aug.14/86  AVD-Jan.10/87  Veronica Harper (Ms.  Official Court Reporter  B.C.S.R.A. #263  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 Car 03;  2-137  GUNANOOT, D.  In Chief,  Mr. Rush.  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  DAVID GUNANOOT, a witness  called on behalf of the  Plaintiffs, previously  affirmed, testifies as follows:  RALPH MICHELL,  Gitksan Interpreter,  previously affirmed.    UPON COMMENCING AT 9.45 a.m., Wednesday, 14 May, 1986  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  RUSH:  We'll start our commission again, David.  WITNESS: Okay.  RUSH:  It's May 14th today.  We have another lawyer, who  is representing the Attorney General of Canada, and  he is going to introduce himself.  IRVING:  My name is John Irving.  I'm with the law firm  of Macaulay, McColl and we are aacting for the Attorney  General of Canada.  RUSH:  Thank you.  I have a few more questions of you today,  David, and then I am going to ask that you answer the  questions of Mr. Plant.  WITNESS:  What's that?  RUSH:  I have some questions for you.  WITNESS:  Oh yes.  RUSH:  Then I am going to ask Mr. Plant here if he has  any questions for you.  WITNESS:  Yes.  RUSH:  I think he'll have a few.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH (continued)  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Do you remember yesterday we were talking about the  battle between the Kisgagas and the Gitamaas people?  The Gitamaas people, do you remember you told us that?  Yes.  What is the meaning of Gitamaas? What does that mean  in English, do you know?  I don't know.  That's not my language.  That's not your language?  No.  Do you know what language that is?  I don't know.  Those people at that lake, same as the  Babine people.  They speaking the same language.  Same language as the Babine people?  Yes, they speak the same language.  Now, what were the Kisgagas people doing up there?  I don't know.  As far as I know, that was they taking a  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 ;oto3.-  2-138  GUNANOOT, D.,  In Chief,  Mr. Rush.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  trip there until they get at the corner, at the lake,  on the right side, that's what they say.  That's where  they make those -- makes those rafts, right across,  ahead of the lake.  Yes.  Fish trap in the night time, until they get behind that  'Ģhump at Satsiis.  Say it again?  Satsiis.  There's little pass behind that place where  they're going over.  They find the people, any land,  and they store their canoe there, and they cutting the  holes in the bottom of some of them, and they left off  again.  After that, they go back and they kill those  people,and the rest of them try to run out and they  jump right in the canoe.  They paddle out, so far out,  they're sinking on account of the hole on it.  They  keep on doing it.   In fact, get nothing.  ,The people  get the canoes, which they been hiding, jump in, going  back up to it, until it all filled up and they got no  use for them anymore after they clean up those people.  Every time they take those arrows and shoot into that  rock.  That was the rock you told us about yesterday?  Exactly the same.  Now, what lake was it where those Gitamaas people  drowned? What was the name of that lake?  Takla Lake.  That's what they call.  I don't know what  they call it for their own langugage.  Now, David, the Gitamaas people, were they living in  a village?  They got their own village.  Was the village -- was it above ground or was it under  ground?  No.  Alongside of the lake.  Now, you were saying that -- yesterday I think you  mentioned Driftwood Creek;  do you know Driftwood Creek  up by Bear Lake?  Yes.  Where is that?  Driftwood is, came from where it goes to Bear Lake and  going right down and goes into -- what they call that  lake?  Goes into another lake, does it?  Still the same lake.  Yes.  Where Satsiis ....  Is that Takla Lake?  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 Car 037  2-139  GUNANOOT, D.  In Chief,  Mr. Rush.  A     Yes, Takla Lake.  That's where that Driftwood runs in  to, ahead of it.  Q     Is Driftwood Creek, is that part of Oyee's territory?  A     That's right.  What's they call that?  Gee, It's too  many.  That's Driftwood going down and Xsigwingyilaa.  Q     What's that name again?  A     Xsigwingyilaa, which they call that, and this is the  Driftwood, and there's that mountain I was telling you  about that.  Q     What was the name of that mountain, do you know?  A     I told you yesterday.  Q     Okay.  A     That was Tsil Tsila.  Q     Now, you were telling us yesterday that you also trapped  I think for a while with Black Hat Tom?  A     That's way up too. '  Q     Where's that? Where did you trap with him?  A     That's where, up to, they call it big river, Xsu'wiiaks.  Q     How long did you do that with him?  A     Some times about six months I think.  Yes, about six  months.  That's quite a few of us going down to the  Driftwood, even my father and my mother, and my sisters  and brothers, going until we get out of that lake and  landed up to the old landing, going right over that  mountain and going down to Babine.  Q     How old were you when you did that?  A     Eh?  Q     How old were you?  A     I don't know.  I was still young but I got something  to remember.  Anything that time I was very good at  that, remembering everything.  So, two-three years ago  I start hollering out here.  His name was was Leon from  Telkwa Creek, and that's when — I'm not crazy about  that man, I don't know why.  Standing in front of the  tent, I see him coming there and I go, just about flying  up in the air.  I get up to his neck ... (inaudible)  everything what they told me, just like last year.  You remember too last year, still remember?  Q     Your memory's good today too?  A     I think so but I don't think not very much today.  Q     I am just going to pause here, David, I think I might  be finished my questions.  A     Yes.  Q     I'm going to wait a minute and then maybe ask Mr. Plant  here if he has some questions, okay.  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-140  GUNANOOT, D.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  A     Yes.  MR. RUSH:  So we'll stop for a minute.  —- OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. RUSH:  David, I've finished my questions.  I've concluded  my direct examination and now Mr. Plant may have some  questions for you.  THE WITNESS:  Yes.  MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  MR. PLANT:  David, I'm sure you know, I'm the government lawyer  and I have some questions.  Some of them will be somewhat  like the questions Stuart had but I have some other  questions too.  I hope I won't take very long.  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Your father was Simon Gunanoot?  That's right.  If you have any trouble hearing me, you let me know,  okay?  Yes.  Your father was a Fireweed?  Yes.  He was from the Fireweed clan?  Yes.  His father was Charlie Nagan?  Yes.  What clan was he?  Supposing to be Frog.  Used to be.  He was a Frog?  Yes.  Charlie's brother was Daniel Skawil, is that right?  That's right, he was Daniel Skawil.  What clan was Daniel Skawil?  The same.  He was also a Frog?  Yes.  Daniel Skawil was Xskiigimlaxha?  After my grandfather died?  Did he take the name from Charlie Nagun?  Yes.  And Charlie Nagun when he was alive he was Xskiigimlaxha?  Xskiigimlaxha, well, that thing you heard me talking  about yesterday, how he started at that time, when that  Kispiox person making the holes for beaver houses?  Yes.  Xskiighimlaxha was killed  there.     Stikine killed  that  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-141  GUNANOOT, D.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Okay.  Is 'Niikyap a big chief?  Xskiigimlaxha, came from Galdo'o.  You told tHat story yesterday?  Yes.  Yes?  Well, it is still the same thing what it is.  Finally,  my father, my grandfather take the name Xskiigimlaxha  after those Stikine made a mistake and killed that  Xskiigimlaxha from Galdo'o.  Later, Daniel Skawil took the name?  Yes, after my grandfather died.  Was Daniel Skawil alive when you were born?  When I was born?  Yes.  Skawil?  Yes, Daniel Skawil.  I was trapping with him.  He was very old.  So you knew him very well?  Yes.  Xskiigimlaxha is a chief? A simooget?  That's right.  Was he a big chief?  Yes, chief for the family.  David, are some chiefs more important than others?  Are there some chiefs that are bigger chiefs than other  chiefs?  I don't understand.  You don't understand?  What's that?  Is 'Niikyap?  Oh yes.  He's  That's an old  What?  'Niikyap is an old name?  Yes.  Does Xskiigimlaxha have a house?  That's right, Xskiigimlaxha, yes,  Who has the name Xskiigimlaxha today? Or does anyone?  Johnny Wilson.  His name is Johnny Wilson,  The taxi  man around town.  He's the taxi man in Hazelton?  Yes.  Do you remember when Johnny Wilson took the name?  Yes, I don't know how long ago, I forget.  I was around  town then he take the name all right.  Was it a few years ago or a very long time ago?  Not long time ago.  It was about, gee, four years ago,  I think.  Can't lie.  He do good all right.  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189  an old chief,  name, is it?  he has got a house. car 03:  2-142  GUNANOOT, D.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  So now does Johnny Wilson have the same territory that  Daniel Skawil had?  He got it, he took the name.  That's right.  Who was Xskiigimlaxha before Johnny  Wilson?  That's Dan Skawil.  It was Daniel?  Yes.  Was there a time when no-one had the name Xskiigimlaxha?  Which one?  After Daniel died, did someone take the name  Xskiigimlaxha right away?  No.  there was a time before Johnny Wilson got the name?  No, nobody.  Nobody had it?  Yes, until Johnny Wilson get it.  David, you're a Wolf Clan member?  Yes.  'Niikyap is a Wolf?  Yes.  What clan was your mother?  What's that?  Your mother, Sara Gunananoot?  Just the same as me.  She was also a Wolf?  Yes.  Can't change.  I don't know very much about the ways of your people  and that's why my questions are silly.  Well    Was your" mother a chief?  Oh yes.  So many times.  What was her name again?  Her chief's name?  What do you say?  What was her Gitksan name?  Gitksan name, it was 'Niit'amlaxwak.  Is that a chief's name?  And other one, that was Gamgageex.  Is that a chief's name?  That's all for -- that's all the biggest name she got.  That was the biggest name she got?  Yes.  What house does that name belong to?  Still the same.  the same house?  Yes.  What house is that?  'Niikyap's house.  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-143  GUNANOOT, D.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  Q David, did you have a brother named Fred?  A Fred?  Q Yes.  A Yes.  Q He's not alive any more, he died?  A He died long time ago.  Q Was he a chief?  A Yes.  Q Was he a chief in the House of 'Niikyap?  A Yes.  That was, still in 'Niikyap's house.  Still gets name right in there.  Oyee.  Q He was Oyee?  A Oyee.  Yes.  That's easy to spell, Oyee.  Q Beg your pardon?  A That's easy to spell, Oyee.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  Still in it.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  A  Q  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Q  A  Who has the name Oyee now?  Who has that name now?  Joshua McLean.  Oh yes, Joshua McLean.  Oyee has territory, doesn't he?  That's right.  Does Joshua McLean use his territory?  Yes, he's getting closer to now.  Getting closer to  get on there.  Takes a little time for them to know  some place, to the other people, but I told him again,  between those two places, he's getting very close to  that.  Going right over to that, they call it Rice Lake,  start going up to Belker Lake.  Belker Lake?  Milky Lake.  Milky Lake.  Got it because it looks like milk,  it, but the river is Xsigwingyilaa,  of that lake.  Has Joshua been on the territory?  that's why they call  that's come out  He's very close.  I believe they get there next time.  They was going up, was going to get there all right  but they made a mistake, still keep on following that  creek that came from there, until they get to the truth.  The canyon.  Canyon Creek?  Yes.  And I showed him how it is, there's the canyon  right here, and there's alongside the river there, kind  of flattened out.  I used to get up there and going  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 Zar 037  2-144  GUNANOOT,   D.  Cross-Ex.  Mr.   Plant  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  I told him how to do  try.  right up there, just like nothing.  Joshua tried to go there and he didn't go quite the  right way?  Yes.  He stuck for that canyon  it and he said next time he'll  He'll try again to get there?  He'll get there.  Is he going to go this year?  They can travel that place, all over the place with  his skidoo.  Nice country for the skidoo.  What is Joshua going to do on the territory when he  gets there?  Trapping.  Trapping?  Yes.  That's the main thing?  Lot of beavers around there.  Who's trapping there now?  Is someone trapping there  now?  One of the fellow from Bear Lake, used to going over  there, he said to me.  He told me about it, nobody around  there.  Supposed to be the son of one of my first cousins  so I let her use -- let him to go there any time but  don't go too much about that.  I said, because I got  a man to go on to look after that trapline.  I already  got his name on ....  But you let someone from Bear Lake use the territory?  Yes.  For a while?  He used it, he said.  He's not scared of me to tell  me about it.  He's the son of one of my own niece.  Do you know his name?  I forget his name.  He told me his name but he didn't  last long around there.  That's those people from that  Takla Lake who has been claiming that we overlap them  but I talked to them about it.  I said, I can't even  change myself.  Any place where my grandfather used  to be, I follow that place in again.  Belonged to him  so I can't do anything about it.  What's he going to  say?  Did the people from Takla Lake so they have a claim  to that territory too?  Yes.  They trying, trying to get on there but I stop  it again.   (inaudible).  go down  to Driftwood.  Did the Takla Lake people, did they tell you they had  been trapping on the territory?  No.  They know now anyway.  They can't bother.  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 zar037  2-145  GUNANOOT, D.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  Q     They can't what?  A     They can't bother anything about that.  Oyee's territory.  It's way different country.  Whoever goes on to Takla  and whoever goes down to Skeena    Q     It's where the    A     Can't say nothing any more.  Q     I see.  Is Joshua McLean part of your family?  A     That's right.  That's one of my -- my mother was being  married first but she used that Joshua's mother --oh,  I mean, Maria's father, was John Riel.  That's the one,  he died.  After that they been together with my father  and there they go.  Q     Where does Joshua fit in all of that?  A     Well, that's the one I was telling you, that was John  Riel's daughter is Maria.  That's where Joshua came  from.  Q     Is Maria Joshua's mother?  A     Yes, Maria.  Q     Is that Joshua's mother?  A     Yes.  Q     I see.  You also had a brother Alex?  A     Yes.  Q     Is Alex dead also?  A     Eh?  Q     Is Alex dead also?  A     Yes, he died.  Q     Was Alex a chief?  A     Yes, Chief Muut.  Q     Did you say he was the head chief Muut or    MR. RUSH:  He was Chief Muut.  THE WITNESS:  Been sitting alongside of me.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  He sat beside you?  Yes.  Was Muut a chief from Kisgagas?  That's right.  That's my old grandfather picked him  up because he's smart kid.  So he picked him up to be  alongside of himas chief too, and he gave him the name  as Muut, as to be a chief alongside of him.  Who has the name Muut today?  Still keep it. I should have taken it, I don't know  what holds me back.  The time when I finished that feast  and everything, I should have take that name and put  it on alongside of me again.  I would have been getting  something for that, for somebody's feast but I didn't.  Well, this is the same as Charlie, my brother, I finished  him again and still same thing, I didn't even bother  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 car 03."  2-146  GUNANOOT,  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  D.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  about those two names.  Well, they still on me right  now.  So you're holding the name now?  Eh?  Do you have the name now?  I got to look after those names.  You haven't given that name to anybody?  No.  Can't do anything about it.  Does Muut have territory?  Oh yes.  Yes.  Is it the same territory as 'Niikyap?  No.  Where's Muut's territory?  It's way up to Skeena River.  Way up the Skeena River,  very close to Simon Morrison's territory.. Waiget, that's  his chief name.  Simon Morrison's chief's name is?  Waiget.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  THE WITNESS:  Elsie Morrison get that name now as Waiget.  Kispiox.  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Elsie Morrison?  Yes.  How far up the Skeena is Muut's territory?  Past Galdo'o?  That's where -- way on the other side of Slamgiist,  they call it, that creek.  That's Simon Morrison and  there's Muut.  They used to go together and spent trapping time around with them, helping the others.  They used to trap together?  Oh yes.  Very close.  Just the same line.  And then    Across that, on the other side, that was one of my uncle  again got territory there, that's Johnny Morrison.  The creek, used to call it Maxlislagiibilit.  Could you say that name again?  Maxlislagiibilit.  Is there an English name for that creek?  That's what they call that creek.  Maxlislagiibilit.  That's Johnny Morrison's trapline.  Is that the English name for it?  Yes.  That's Xstuutxwmlaxha.  That's Johnny Morrison's  chief name, Xstuutxwmlaxha.  Too many in the head.  Yes, too many for me.  Xstuutxwmlaxha, he sits at the  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 car 03."  2-147  GUNANOOT,   D.  Cross-Ex.  Mr.   Plant  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  feast table with you, doesn't he?  Yes.  Yes?  Yes.  You had a brother, Charlie, also, didn't you?  Which one?  You had a brother Charlie?  Charlie, yes.  Is he still alive?  No, he died some time.  Did he have a Gitksan name?  He died right -- year after Alex died.  Did he have a Gitksan name?  Gitksan name?  What was his chief's name?  I forgot.  He's got his name already.  No, I forgot.  He didn't get that --he didn't get that name right  in there but he got it up to — what they call that  lake?  I forget.  Not Babine.  It's close to the -- no,  I forget.  Was he a chief?  No.  He's not a chief.  He's only got, what they call  some kind of princess like.  Some kind of prince?  Yes.  That's before they get a big name.  So he never had a big name?  No.  Did he have territory?  No.  Just the same as in that Oyee.  They can get  together on that land, if they still alive.  He could hunt and trap on Oyee's territory?  Yes.  Did you have a brother named Philip?  Philip?  Yes.  He died long time ago.  Do you remember    Car accident.  Do you remember how long ago that was?  No.  I forget.  I know I was quite ready to -- we already  load that big plane, that two-ton plane.  They call  that Stranair.  We already load that when somebody comes  right over to that dock, cable for you, and there's  my brother, Philip, died.  Everybody happen to be, they  tell me can't let him go until you come back, then you  will do something about it.  And I did too.  Yes.  I  did go out with that two-ton plane.  Very heavy load.  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-148  GUNANOOT, D.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Two tons.  Yes.  When we get up there, up to Gilbert Lake, it will be  just like something to start a stove ....  Is that how you got your food up to the traplines?  Yes.  Takes me about, takes me about three years before  I run out of sugar.  ■Chat's a lot of sugar!  Yes.  We've got thos big cans, screw cap.  There's flour,  same thing.  Anything which can be spoiled, if it's  anything raw, they put it in that big can.  You were up on the trapline when you heard that your  brother Philip had died?  A   Oh yes.  Did you    We're not quite ready but it just happened just about  taking off on the plane, and what is the use break all  of my things, unload the plane, so I got to take all  my stuff up to Gilbert Lake.  At that time, I'm free  after that.  Coming in that winter, take a trip around  there.  My mother finsihes everything, funeral and all  the expense, so I finished.  Your brother looked after the funeral expenses?  Yes, mymother.  Your mother?  Yes.  Was Philip a chief?  Eh?  Was Philip a chief when he died?  No.  He's only got a little name, that's all.  You have a brother named Reg?  Reg?  Yes.  He died about a week ago.  Was he a chief?  No.  r»i8 vr.il have a brother named Simon?  That's Simon.  Reg is Simon?  Yes.  They're the same people?  What?  Did you also have a brother named Simon? No?  No.  You have a sister named Kathleen?  Kathleen is our sister.  She died long time ago.  I  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 car 037  2-149  GUNANOOT, D.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  forget how many years.  About ten years ago Kathleen  died.  Did she have a Gitksan name?  That's 'Wiinaagets.  Was she a chief?  That was big chief.  Not really like 'Niikyap.  'Niikyap  is head chief of every one of them.  'Niikyap is head chief?  Yes.  Did Kathleen have territory?  Yes.  My mother gave that territory to Maria and that  William McLean and they're fixing up a little.  Some  kind of cabin up there.  But when that William McLean  died, and they were one of those -- every one of those  they were moving into Kisgagas, sometimes further around  town.  They all move up to Kisgagas again going up around  there but that -- who, now?  Robert Jackson, take them  around and let me trap all over the place.  With the  skidoo, that's what they're using.  You get around faster on a skidoo, don't you?  Oh yes.  So is it Robert Jackson who traps on that territory  now?  Oh yes.  He's looking after Melulek territory.  Is Robert Jackson Melulek?  Yes.  He is?  Does he have the name Melulek?  He's -- he should have been Melulek but there's one  -- he's kind of half sister down the coast who wants  that name, so he left her have that Melulek, but nobody  liked it because she's only woman, that's all, not very  good enough to hold that chief name.  Head chief.  But  he is still looking after that territory lip there,  Xsagagyoot.  That's the territory.  The territory is up hear Xsagagyoot?  Yes.  And Robert Jackson looks after that territory?  Yes, he's the one.  Is he trapping on that territory?  Yes.  He's the one going around with Joshua McLean,  or is Melulek and Oyee, territory right down, and that's  where they come together again.  I'm sorry, what's between them?  What?  What's between them?  Between that Joshua and Robert Jackson there's only  one hill there, going right over, and there goes Joshua,  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 0«ro3r  2-150  GUNANOOT,    D.,  Cross-Ex.  Mr.   Plant  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  took it on to that Milky Lake.  Going down on the side  and there's Robert Jackson put on his own too.  So it's  very nice between the two of them to get together and  help each other.  There's one more member of your family I want to ask  you about, that is your sister Matilda?  Which one?  Matilda.  Did you have a sister named Matilda?  Who me?  No.  You had a sister Kathleen?  Yes.  Did you have another sister?  You mean the little girl?  She died up the head of the  Skeena a long time ago.  Did she die when she was a little girl?  Yes, she's only about three years old.  About two years  old when she died.  When we came up to talk to you the first time, David,  you told us about doing some packing work for George  Biernes?  Yes, it used to be my job long time ago.  When you were a young man? When you were a strong man?  George Biernes    Half pack, 170, 175 pounds, used to go like that.  George Biernes had a ranch in the Kispiox Valley, didn't  he?  Oh yes.  He was a white man, wasn't he?  That would be about very close to, about 28 mile the  other side, from here to there,  to Biernes ranch.  About 28 miles from here to there?  Yes.  To Biernes ranch.  Is that the ranch that Marty Allen has now?  Yes.  Was George Biernes there when you were a little boy?  What?  When you were a little boy was George Biernes' ranch  there?  Little boy?  Young man at that time.  I was packing about  five years before I go back to Stewart.  Has that ranch been there a long time though?  Oh yes.  It was there before you packed, wasn't it?  Yes, way before that.  We only packed in there -- I was  a young kid and we run into a bunch of horses up to the  head of the Skeena.   My dad was guide for them and  taking those two bundles of furs, and they put it on,  and they put my dad to guide the horse any place where  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 ;»t-03:  2-151  GUNANOOT, D.,  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  they could go so could travel without snow, and he did  too.   Going down and going up again until we get out  of there and coming into Black Water Lake, that's where  we're coming in, to the line.  Takla line.  That's the  time we're coming in to George Biernes ranch.  Jack Silver, he's the one packing that two bundles  of furs and take it up to -- above the ranch, way up  there, get those packs down again.  Put them into the  buggy and take them into Kispiox.  You brought the furs down and took them into Kispiox?  Yes.  That's the place where the Hudson Bay people knows  that my dad was in town, and even that man own that house,  C. B. Smith.  It used to be a store.  It used to be a store?  Yes, and the house part.  Was it your dad's store in Kispiox?  No.  I mean this place we are at right now. ,  Oh, this place right here?  It belongs to the German guy, and his name was C. B.  Smith.  He read paper about it.  Did he buy furs?  Yes.  Got to go, big head.  Lot of hair?  Big head.  Sorry?  That was the biggest head there was.   Always go like  that   And he ran    He can say hello.  He could say hello to you?  Yes, he can talk all right.  But he can't move.  George Biernes was a friend of your father's wasn't he?  Yes.  He tried to catch him but he can't.  George Biernes  not the owner of that land at that time I was talking  about.  Yes.  That was, belongs to Cataline.  Ken Lyon?  You heard about Cataline?  Cataline, oh yes, I'm sorry.  Big cowboy.  Yes.  Did Cataline own the land?  Yes, that's the place where he get all of those horses  and he's the one looking after the telegraph line.  Yes.  Finally George Biernes comes in and talk to the old man  about it, on account he's getting too old, so he tried  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 :nro3.-  2-152  GUNANOOT, D.,  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  to get it, and he said he told Cataline anything what  I make out of your horses, I'll give it all to you, until  I get out how much I make and you find your price for  the horses and that land.  They did too.  I seen the  old man, I only see him once, that Cataline.  Heard about  that one.  Was this when you were a small boy?  Oh yes.  I don't know how many, five, six years old.  I think.  Did George Biernes take over Cataline's business?  Oh yes.  He took it away from him.  He did the packing?  After he died, he took the whole thing, belongs to him  for nothing.  So was your father a friend of George Biernes?  He was around there but nobody knows him.  Nobody    His name was Jack Johnson.  After he gave himself up  and he told them that was, "I'm Simon Gunanoot, you guys  have been looking for me for a good many years".  Was George Biernes    What they going to do?  Happened this side of the river.  After your dad went down to the trial, and the jury said  he was not guilty, he came back up here, didn't he?  Which one?  Your dad?  He came back up here after the trial?  Oh yes.  He's going in, on the June sometimes but they  miss the court in June, coming in late, so have to wait  the whole summer, until October.  That's the time give  the trial, can't do a thing about it because they shoot,  they shoot the house and the lawyers said you can shoot  and shoot him long time ago, 13 years ago, and why did  we in here.  He died long time ago.  Even the grouse,  you can take the gun now and shoot him, that grouse should  go down, flew away.  There you go, look again, look again,  see more grouse, that was one shoot.  Until grouse are  large mix-up.  Your father's lawyer, his name was Mr. Henderson?  Henderson, yes.  Stewart Henderson.  Did he used to come up here    Oh yes.    after the trial?  Yes.  That Edward Wright's wife's daughter, that was  them -- I mean her.  Her name was Maggie Green.  She's  a little girl, she always knows everything about anybody  coming in.  So she knew too.   Says somebody looking  for, and they get after Maggie, don't you know where?  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 ;nro3r  2-153  GUNANOOT,   D.  Cross-Ex.  Mr.   Plant  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR.  They didn't know until they call him Simon.  Simon.  Simon Gunanoot.  Finally, she find what one they're  talking about and she takes the lawyer and the lawyer  pick up Biernes at this time, brings my father too.  George Biernes was there too?  Yes, and the two of them comes in.  I was at the camp  when they coming in.  You were there?  Yes.  My dad tell me about it, that's the lawyer and  that's the man look for him too. George Biernes.  After it was all over, after your father went down and  came back, did Mr. Henderson come back to Kispiox?  Stewart Henderson?  Eh?  Did he come back up?  No.  You never saw him again?  Oh no, he's seen my father.  My father taking him up  the place where they find the gold up -- close to  Two Brothers Lake, but they find shovel and a pick.  That's all they find and the lawyer comes back, and  my dad find that out.  That was the one, that's the  last gold place.  He wants me to go up there but I didn't  Takes the whole thing myself, I come back to Stewart  again, as I'm steady working.  That's why I didn't go  out with him, and my brother Fred was sick, rheumatism.  Goes to be at RAchers Lake.  Can't even go no place.  But Alex and Charlie, they split up there.  PLANT:  David, let's take a short break, all right?  We'll  have a rest for a few minutes.  SHORT  RECESS  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT (continued)  Q  A  Q  Q  A  Q  Before we broke, before we had our coffee break, you  were telling me a little bit about some prospecting  that your dad did with George Biernes, do you remember  that?  Yes.  I wanted to ask you again where that was? You said  Two Brothers Lake?  That's right, close to Two Brothers Lake.  That's what  my dad said.  I didn't seen it.  You didn't see it?  Yes, but Two Brothers Lake supposing to be about north,  north-west I think to Two Brothers Lake.  Where is Two Brothers Lake?  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-154  GUNANOOT,  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  D.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  That's way up to head of the Skeena.  I forget where  it was.  Is it Gitksan land?  Do you know if the land around  Two Brothers Lake belongs to the Gitksan people?  That was all Stikine people I think.  Knows places around  there.  Not very far away from that Dease Lake.  It's not very far from Dease Lake?  Yes, but I don't know and I never was there.  Right.  You told us that you moved to Steart?  Mm-mm?  You lived in Stewart for a long time?  That's right, yes.  You still have a place there now?  Oh yes.  I've still got my own property there.  You have a house there?  Yes.  It's only two lot.  That's all I got, two lot.  Is there an Indian Reserve in Stewart?  Indian Reserve right across there.  Is your land on the Indian Reserve?  Oh yes.  No, never, it's in Stewart.  Why did you go to Stewart a long time ago?  I don't know.  I used to fish around and go back to  Stewart and trap around there and come out in the springtime, and come back to fish again.  Finally, I got a  job up at Premier Mine.  At the time I didn't even go  down and fish again.  In the fall have to pack up and  re-lay all my groceries, headed over to Bowser for two  trips.  All my pack, my dog too.  You say you used to trap around Stewart, though?  Not only Steawrt side.  Some place around.  I used to  start to trap at about Bowser and go into my property  up to that Gilbert Lake.  That's where my cabin is,  is Gilbert Lake.  You have a cabin on Gilbert Lake?  Yes.  Did you fish around Stewart or was that somewhere else?  What?  Where did you fish?  Where did I fish?  Yes.  Down there, but when I quit it, I quit it because I  fishing for underground summer-time and winter-time  go back and trap.  This seem like I did what the  inspector say, everything what I'm doing, what I'm doing  in the summer-time I told him about it.  Asked me what  I do for winter time.  I told him that I was trapping  in the winter time.  Started picking up the last man  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 ;to3.-  2-155  GUNANOOT, D.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  at that time, specially the gun man, they never missed  them.  Just picked up and seen over the years that time  but they let me go on account of those nice job I got,  he said, trapping in the winter time and catching all  those hundred per cent wool for the boys overseas, and  the summer-time you going in there and get all those  coppers out.  We need load of copper for the shell.  That's right, go ahead.  When I get back down there  I'll get your name.  I'll get your name as a trapper  and mining.  The two jobs will keep you here as a trapper  and that you have been making all those coppers.  Who   Which the war likes, exactly what you're doing.  So  when I get out there, they will never bother you with  your work.  I was watching, watching, think they forget  it then come back and pick me up but, no, they didn't  even bother.  Did you ever join the army?  What?  Did you ever join the arm?  You never did?  No.  That's the time they pick me up.  They taking lot  of people at that time but they let me go.  They wants  the hundred per cent wool for the boys.  They could  use for blazer.  Hundred per cent wool, they can jump  right into in small river, waded across, standing up  on the other side and let it drain itself, start a little  fire, standing around it, they're dried out.  That's  why they let me go and do the trapping.  So you kept on trapping, and you worked in the mine  to get the copper for the shells?  Yes, that's right.  They let me go.  Who was it that let you go?  That big man, kind of inspector I think  up the people.  A government man?  Yes.  No -- yes, he's the government.  He could ask  for anything what you been doing.  Pick you up, send  you overseas, where you're going to do the shooting.  Did some of the Gitksan people go overseas?  Yes. Eh?  Did some of the Gitksan people go overseas?  Oh yes.  Quite a few of them, I don't know how many.  Thousands of people around Premier mine.  Every time  the boat comes in it sounds very pretty when they come  in.  There's band with the Prince Rupert boat and Prince  George, playing any kind of instrument.  After they  let 500 men going out today, 600 going out today.  That's a lot of people.  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189  He  just picking Zar 037  2-156  GUNANOOT, D.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  MR.  MR.  MR.  Q  A  Q  Yes.  Were there some Gitksan people going?  Like my brother Charlie was going over there too.  Did he go over?  Yes, he went over.  He finished it all right.  He was  wanted two three times but he is going back in the mine.  He wants to finish the job.  He said, it seems to me  I'm the one going away and if I shot the last one.  So he went back?  Yes, he went back.  You kept working at the mines and trapping?  Oh yes.  What did you do after the war?  Nothing.  Same thing?  Still there.  I got the two places.  I was working at  the Premier some times or go up to Alaska. ' I was working  for the Riverside Tungsten mine, that was another place.  Only one time I joined that big battleship that was  -- I forget what.they called -- that's the time I made  a mistake but they let me go.  I slipped in up to  Stewart.  That big cabin.  Sure likes me to go around  with him.  Any place where he goes, going over to Haida,  come on there, come on there.  Put big cap on my head.  Making me head captain on the ship.  He keep on doing  that.  Three nights I didn't even sleep after we got  up to Stewart.  They didn't even give me a chance to  sleep.  Finally, I must have been sleepy and I remembered  my home, go down there, and go to sleep.  That night  that big boat was whistling at four o'clock in the morning, I didn't even hear, nobody bothers me, I still  sleeping.  When I get up, I asked a fellow named Alan,  I asked him, and he said "Your boat pulled out four  o'clock this morning".  This is a different subject but I wanted to know, David,  have you ever voted?  What?  Have you ever voted in an election?  RUSH:  What kind of election?  PLANT:  Beg your pardon?  RUSH:  What kind of election?  BY MR. PLANT:  Have you ever voted in an election for the politicians,  the white politicians from Victoria or Ottawa?  I don't know whatis that.  You know some times you have an election    Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 Coro3r  2-157  GUNANOOT, D.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  A     Election?  Q      in the Band?  A     Election?  Q     You know what an election is?  A     That's all I know, elections around.  I used to be with  them.  Q     Have you ever gone and filled out a vote in the elections  for the white people?  A     What supposed to be, for us, different altogether?  Q     I'm thinking about the government politicians in  Victoria?  A     I don't know.  I don't think so.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. PLANT:  I wonder if we could use Ralph's assistance?  MR. RUSH:  Go ahead.  MR. PLANT:  The point of the question is to find out if he's  ever voted in a provincial or federal election;  do  you think you could interpret that?  —- OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN  THE WITNESS:  No, I didn't vote for any one government.  THE INTERPRETER:  No, I didn't vote for anybody.  --- OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  Q  A  Q  I want to ask you some more about trapping now, David.  I think you said you used to trap with Daniel Skawil?  Oh yes.  Yes.  First time, when I went back to Stewart  is about twenty-three when I got back to Stewart with  my dad.  Four of us trapped, Fred and Thomas Campbell  and me and my father.  Did you go trapping with Daniel Skawil?  That's right.  That was on my grandfather's hunting  ground, that is what they used to call that.  Xskiigimlaxha, that's my grandfather.  But after Dan  Skawil take the name as Xskiigimlaxha, my grandfather  use dto be head chief, Xskiigimlaxha, but he died.  My grandfather dieid and buried up to Grouse Lake.  Old Man Skawil was being taking places to be a chief  as Xskiigimlaxha.  That hunting ground is near Awiijii Lake? Awiijii  Creek?  Yes.     You mean Dan Skawil's?  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 OCT 03."  2-158  GUNANOOT, D.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Yes.  Yes.  His trapline is near Skawil Creek?  Yes.  I have been with him quite a lot around there.  Around to that Skawil Creek.   Me and that old man before  I got my own.  He troubled me about me trapping on his  trapline and the game warden picked me up, and the game  warden got mad at the old man too, because he holding  too much of that land around there, and that's the reason  Martin turned around and gave me that pretty quick, on  account of other owners died before me.  Was that William Scott?  Yes, William Scott.  He's the one was taking off, taking  the trip up to Stikine.  He run into one of the priests  in Galdo'o, that's why he left pretty quick for nothing,  don't take anything at all.  All his trap is all there.  Peter Morrison was being there all right, before me.  He took the traps away but I got that slate, found that  slate with the copper, really that was nice.  I sure  liked that slate.  Who trapped that area before you did? Was it William  Scott or was there someone after William Scott?  Yes, William Scott.  He went up and married the girl  from -- that I was talking about -- he didn't even come  back to the Treaty Creek any more.  Peter Morrison was  up there trapping for a while.  What was    And he died up there, down to Paul Higgins cabin.  That's  where he died.  Was William Scott a Gitksan person or was he a white  man?  Which one?  William SCott?  Oh yes, he's white.  Regular white.  White man.  Who was Peter Morrison, was he a white man too?  That was -- no, he was Indian.  That some man before  that Johnny Wilson.  Is Peter Morrison -- sorry?  Yes, still Skawil's nephew.  So the game warden gave you that Treaty Creek trapline  area?  Yes.  That time I was telling you about that, that's  why I got that.  Old man put me in trouble and I paid  200 and 250 for my fine at that time but Martin, the  game warden, the head man of the game warden, comes  over and ask what the trouble is.  Martin get after me,  took me into his office and showed me, why don't you  put your man in trouble and get your money back, he said  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 Cnro3r  2-159  GUNANOOT,   D.  Cross-Ex.  Mr.   Plant  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  to me but I didn't do it.  So many people knows that,  they already know what I'm going to do.  I'm going to  put Old Skawil but you can't.  Finally, after he told  me to shift on his, his own line but, no, I wouldn't  do it.  So Martin told me, I'll send to you the letter  after I get out of the trouble, and fix you a map.  I'll  fix you the map and you had better go up there and take  all your traps out to Skawil trapline and move it into,  move it into around to that   Treaty Creek?    Treaty Creek, and you will be okay.  You will be  there for any time you like.  The old man finds that  out first    He was angry?  He was raising hell for me.  I don't care.  You better  go into the Indian Agent again and talk to the Indian  Agent and tell him that I already got part,of your land.  Talk to the Indian Agent? .  Yes.  Now, he knows he can't even do anything about this  after the game warden takes that land and give it to  me.  All the papers I signed up to be my own.  After that, did you go trapping on the Treaty Creek  property?  On yes.  I was being there.  Finally, he get short-handed  up to his place and he followed me again.  Followed me  again on the way and he wants me to go on his trapline.  I told him you had better go into one of the office and  make your paper that I'll take around.  If you ever said  anything I throw these back because I don't need you.  I don't need you, or ground any more.  So   Finally, I said will go, I'll go 50-50 if I  land, lot of beaver.  I did go for that.  I  and canoed the river.  First trip I made 40 beavers were  there.  Going up there again for another three days,  get down again, another 40 beavers.  Some of them I caugh|t  up to — my trip up to Otters Creek.  Very close to 100  beavers altogether.  Heavy packs.  That is when you went on Skawil's land?  Yes.  And you agreed you would share    Yes.    share the proceeds, or share the money?  Yes.  And at the same time next year he wants me to go  back again.  No, I said, what's the use of doing it.  He only want to help you out so I give you that 800 and  something close to $900 last year, I said.  Not get that  for you.  How much trapping I do, so I can't go back  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189  trap on your  made a canoe Car 037  2-160  GUNANOOT, D.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  again.  He was so sorry about it when I quit his trapline  Quit altogether.  Did you keep trapping on the Treaty Creek trapline?  No, that's my own.  Yes. Right.  So you    Yes.  I only going there, head of the Treaty Creek right  there, and there's the creek, goes down that way and  goes into Eunich River, they call it.  Goes off to  Ketchikan, some place around there.  Gilbert Lake is on your trapline?  Oh yes.  Right?  Yes.  Were there some other people who signed papers with you  for your trapline?  Where?  For the Treaty Creek trapline? Gilbert Lake?  Who sign papers?  No.  Do you know someone named Reggie Morrison?  Reggie Morrison?  Yes.  Is he someone that you know or knew?  Yes, he's no    No Reggie Morrison?  Not around here.  How about people named Benson?  Benson, that's Meziadin people.  They're people from Meziadin?  Yes.  Did they hunt or did they trap on your Gilbert Lake trap-  line?  They tried one time.  I caught up with them and chased  them right back, and send them back.  You sent them back to Meziadin?  Yes.  If I ever find your trap on my land I'll pick it  up and give it to the game warden.  You will find your  traps into the game warden's office, if I pick it up.  So you had better pick it up and go home, and they did  too.  They didn't come back?  No.  Do the Meziadin people come from Kitwancool?  Yes, that's where they belong.  The Bensons belong in Kitwancool?  Yes.  Do you still have a trapline around Treaty Creek and  Gilbert Lake?  That's right.  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-161  GUNANOOT, D.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  You still have that?  Yes.  Who uses that now?  Nobody there this winter.  Jerry should have been there  but he hasn't got a chance.  My nephew, Jerry, he should  be up there.  Jerry Gunanoot?  Yes.  I already got his name on that too.  You've got his name on the trapline?  Oh yes.  Is he a chief?  What?  Is he a chief?  Is your nephew Jerry a chief?  Oh yes.  Is he the chief of a house?  That was -- it's some kind, that's a chief too.  When  was that, that name's going too, got place up above  Kisgagas there.  Which one now? Billy and Thomas McLean  was up there, and Joshua, I sent Joshua up to Oyee's  trapline, up to Xsigwingyilaa.  It seems to me doing  a good job so I gave to McLean where they can do the  work.  Does Jerry have a Gitksan name?  Gitksan, that's 'Wiinaagets.  That's another chief name  too, 'Wiinaagets.  Big cool brain, that's what they called  Has Jerry ever trapped on the trapline at Treaty Creek  Gilbert Lake?  Oh yes around -- I forgot how many years now.  Only goes  short way, didn't go over to the head of that, which  they call Tim Williams' property.  There's some man up  there but he died long time ago, but nobody bothers that  anymore.  Tim Williams?  Yes.  Is he a Gitksan?  No.  He's a white man?  Yes.  The first time we met, Stuart asked you about the places  you had trapped, and I think you said you had trapped  near Meziadin;  had you ever trapped near Meziadin Lake?  Me?  Yes.  I trapped on my own.  I don't think I understand.  Have you    We only pass in there some times from Bowser and Treaty  Creek.  Go right down Bowser, go into Meziadin, go into  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 Car 03:  2-162  GUNANOOT, D.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  trap there?  to kill the moose around there for dog meat.  Lot of moose around there but I don't think  there?  over the place  and let  do you know?  brother.  Stewart and come out that on the way back on those dog  teams.  Q     You pass by Meziadin?  A     Yes.  Q     Did you ever  A     No.  We used  that's all.  so.  Q     You don't think you ever trapped  A     Lot of people shooting moose all  it rot.  Q     But you didn't do that, you shot the moose for food?  A     Yes. That's the time got a lot of dogs.  This is the  time used a lot of meat.  Q     Who owns the territory around Meziadin Lake,  A     He died, Gordon Roberts but he died, but his  John Roberts, still hang on to it.  Q     Where's he from?  A     Kitwancool.  MR. RUSH:  What did he say?  MR. PLANT:  Kitwancool.  Q     What clan is he?  Do you know what clan he is?  Is he  a Wolf?  A     Yes, that's a Wolf.  Q     Did you ever go trapping with  A     No.  Q     You also spoke to Stuart about  A     Taft?  Q     Yes.  A     Yes, that was -- that's the place where the beavers are.  There's a lot of beavers right in there.  That's why  they call it Luut'ahlts'imilix.  Q     Taft Creek goes into Bell Irving River, doesn't it?  A     Yes, and the other side is Luudagoogat.  Q     The other side is what?  Could you say that again please?  A     Luudagoogat.  Q     Did you ever trap on Taft Creek?  A     Taft?  Q     Yes, did you ever trap there?  A     I was up there once.  Me and Bob Skawil.  Q     Bob Skawil?  A     Yes.Yes, Bob Skawil and William Skawil.  Q     Did that territory belong to them?  A     Yes.  But they didn't even bother me or nothing.  That  was before I got that Treaty Creek.  Q     That was before Treaty Creek?  A     Yes.  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189  people from Kitwancool?  a place called Taft Creek? car 037  2-163  GUNANOOT, D.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  You went up there with Bob Skawil and William Skawil?  Yes.  Do you know who owns that territory now?  Yes, I know.  Gee, I forget.  Did I give it to you?  I gave it to you.  Do you want to tell Ralph?  I give it to you first but it stand up and the other  one take off.  He knows it.  You don't remember who? You don't remember the name?  He knows it.  Ralph knows it?  Yes.  Do you know the Gitksan name?  I forget that too.  Too many names.  Overloaded.  You also told Stuart about a place where people used  to get flint?  What?  You told Stuart about a place where people used to get  flint?  I think it was called Xsa ansalagamt?  Xsa ansalagamt, yes.  Where is that?  That will be the first creek below that -- below that  Taft.  Below, you mean south or north?  East of Bell Irving.  It's close to Taft Creek?  Yes.  Yes, Taft Creek.  And then Xsa ansalagamt there.  And along side, right here. Spruce Creek.  Spruce Creek?  Yes, way down.  Is Xsa ansalagamt between Taft Creek and Treaty Creek?  No.  Is it the other side?  Treaty Creek.  Treaty Creek is the other direction.  Treaty was way up to, close to Awiijii.  Is Xsa ansalagamt, is that the place where people get  flint?  Yes.  Who gets flint there?  I don't know.  Anybody would, could do something.  There  used to be a trail around there.  Picking up those flints  They use it.  Anybody could get that?  Yes.  David, have you ever heard of a place called Rochester  Creek?  Which one?  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-164  GUNANOOT, D.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Rochester Creek.  That was below Xsa ansalagamt you're talking about?  Well, it's quite far away from Xsa ansalagamt.  Yes.  It's north.  It's farther north than Hodder Creek;  do  you know where Hodder Creek is?  Oh yes.  Way up you're talking about?  Yes.  I didn't even know.  That's the place where they find  the big thing about the copper, right there now.  Who's territory -- yes?  Lot of people working there but I forget how many years  ago.  That's why they sell that, they sell that place  up to that Grand Duke because they got so much copper  up there.  That's the one they got to look after.  I've  been up to Grand Duke too a lot of time.  So there's copper up north of Hodder Creek?  Oh yes.  Do you know who owns that territory?  Is that Gitksan  territory?  No, I don't know.  You don't know owns it?  No.  Do you know if that's Gitksan territory?  I know that Ninth Cabin, that used to belong to Jim  Hodder.  I don't know now who take it after.  Jim Hodder?  Used to be   . Hodder long time ago, he registered that,  but the old man find that out and he get after the Indian  Agent again.  But he take that land back and give it  back to the old man.  Old Man Skawil?  Yes.  But they still call it Jim Hodder after that Hodder Creek  that's why he's gone in there, but the old man take it  back again.  Jim Hodder was a white man?  Yes.  He used to get a room downtown here, close to the  riverside.  In Hazelton?  Yes, that's the place where he used to get a room, Jim  Hodder.  So Old Man Skawil went to see the Indian Agent about  getting that trapline back?  Yes, he got it back all right.  Indian Agent take it  back, give it back to the owner.  The Indian Agent gave it back to Skawil?  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 ;oro3.-  2-165  GUNANOOT, D.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  23  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Eh?  The Indian Agent gave it back to Dan Skawil?  Yes, give it back to Dan Skawil.  The first time we met, David, you told Stuart about a  trip that you had in a helicopter?  Helicopter?  With Neil Sterritt?  With who?  Neil Sterritt. You remember telling Stuart about that?  I never go around we using helicopters around Stewart  quite a lot of time.  Tell me, do you remember going in a helicopter with Neil?  Neil John Sterritt?  Neil?  Yes.  Oh, around here.  That was close to here, was it?  Yes.  Going up to that land claims, that's the one we  using, follow the land claim, land claim lines every  time.  You remember going in a helicopter?  Oh yes.  And Neil was with you?  Yes.  And the time we were up to Bear Lake, that is the  time we're using that, using the plane and landed about  five miles below Bear Lake.  Going up to Bear Lake on  that little -- I don't know what they call that --  little place to trap there.  What they call that?  Kind of a plane or a place?  Just like they using on the other side, on the rail.  Oh, I see.  Who was with you on that trip?  That was Neil — quite a bunch of us.  Neil and Ralph.  Ralph Michell you're pointing to?  Yes.  Me and David Green.  And Johnny Green.  I forgot  who is the other one.  What did you -- did you walk around the territories up  there?  Up there we using the helicopters, looking at the place.  I was being asked what they call that mountains and  those rivers around there.  I showed them everything  about it, and tell what they call those mountains and  even the lake and the river.  When was this?  This was last year. Summer last year. Just about died up  there, dead up there.  Sick, really sick on account of  the heat around our place and, you know, that was awful  high, high from the elevation, for me it's too much.  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 Cnro3r  2-166  GUNANOOT, D.  Cross-Ex.,  Mr. Plant  It's a helluva time to get me on those helicopters.  Q     Never get me on them!  A     One of them pushed me on and one of them pushed me up.  Oh yes, Neil, old man Neil was out there too.  Q     He went too?  A     yes.  Q     I just have a few more questions then we'll stop for  lunch.  A     Yes.  Q     I think you said that the man who put the name 'Niikyap  on you was Walter Harris?  A     Eh?  Q     I'll ask it this way:  who was it that gave you the name  'Niikyap? Was it Walter Harris?  A     Walter Harris?  I'm mixed up again.  I know that 'Niikyap  'Niikyap was right here.  Q     Walter Harris is Geel, isn't he?  A     Geel.  Q     Yes.  Did he -- was he at the feast when you got the  name 'Niikyap?  A     That's them, and his auntie gave me the blanket.  Q     His auntie gave you the blanket?  A     Yes.  There's the one -- he's the one who has been --  Ralph taking that, taking that 'Wiiseeks.  That's his  own name now.  He's big chief too.  Q     Ralph's a big chief now, is he?  A     Oh yes.  Q     Does he have his own territory?  A     Oh yes.  Yes.  It's close to Babine.  They call it  Gwalaxgyem.  Q     Has Ralph been out on the territory?  A     Eh?  Q     Has Ralph been on the territory? Has he been on  'Wiiseeks' terrritory?  A     I don't know.  I suppose he has been some time.  Don't  take us long to travel with the helicopters now anyway.  MR. PLANT:  That's true.  I think it might be a good time to  break for a little rest over lunch.  MR. RUSH:  Okay.  MR. PLANT:  We'll stop now, David, and have lunch and come back  at two o'clock, if that's all right?  THE WITNESS:  Yes.  - RECESSED FOR LUNCH AT 12.00 noon  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-167  GUNANOOT, D.,  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant    UPON RESUMING AT 2.10 p.m.  CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT (contd)  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Are there a lot of  We're going to start again, David  people in the House of 'Niikyap?  What do you say?  Are there a lot of people in the House of 'Niikyap?  What do you mean?  Do you know how many?  That is what they say.  No.  names, that was quite a lot.  quite a bunch of them there.  a may --do you have  All I know is me.  Those  Yes, I think there was  That's what they say.  a map of 'Niikyap's terri-  Is there  tory?  No.  You don't have a map of the territory of 'Niikyap?  Follows the creeks around.  That's what?  Same as me on my trapline    Does anybody live in Kisgagas now?  Now?  All the people have left?  Yes.  Those McLeans back and forth in there, and that  Robert Jackson, that's them back and forth.  Left about  three years ago, didn't go up again.  I might take a  trip some day.  I'm sure you've said this before but was 'Wiiseeks a  chief at Kisgagas?  What did you say again?  Ralph is now 'Wiiseeks?  - OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. PLANT:  'Wiiseeks a chief at Kisgagas?  he took Jackson's place.  'Wiiseeks a chief at Kisgagas?  Q Was  A Yes,  Q Was  A That's right.  Q You have told us about Black Hat Tom?  A Yes.  Q He was a chief too?  A That's right.  Q What was his Gitksan name?  A Gitksan?  Q Yes.  A Gwits'agan.    OFF THE RECORD  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 :nro3r  2-168  GUNANOOT,   D.,  Cross-Ex.  Mr.   Plant  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  He was a chief at Kisgagas also?  Yes.  That's right.  Got family there too, big house  going down -- going down flat now anyways.  They been  left Kisgagas long time ago.  Too much for them, backpacking groceries up there.  It's easy for them to stay  around here, buy the groceries right in town, stay around  town, and the reason why, seems to move down here quite  a bit to get their mail here.  Quite a bunch of them  up to Kispiox too, the people from Kisgagas.  All the  people from Melulek's place, they all from Kisgagas.  All the people from Melulek's?  Yes.  Who has the Gitksan name that Black Hat Tom had?  Does  somebody have that name now?  One of them had it.  He died again.  I don't even know  who take it.  It used to be Arthur Sampson used to got  it but he died.  When did he die?  He died right here.  How long ago was that?  Eh?  Was that a long time ago?  Yes, and even his wife died too, but he has got his  daughter around here and those boys too.  But you don't think -- you're not sure if someone has  that name right now?  I don't know.  I would be at Stewart at the time when  they're doing something about it and I didn't even know  what's going on but it never takes me long to find that  out.  I know another of his name was Smex.  That's another  name we got there.  Did he -- did Black Hat Tom have territory?  Oh yes.  Got the place where I was all going up with  him.  It's all round to -- started from    It was a big place though?  Eh?  Way up north?  Yes.  Just about north from here.  Over hundred mile.  I think it is.  set some traps all the way through  Lake and going up to where what they call Xsu'wiiaks,  Sustut River comes that way, and Xsu'wiiaks was there  And there's a big creek comes down this way, it comes  down from that, that place -- what they call it?  Xsilaxamaawxs.  That's where we be    That was Black Hat Tom's territory?  Yes, that is the one I was talking about right now.  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189  Quite a ways anyway.  I have been around.  From out of Bear car 03:  2-169  GUNANOOT, D.,  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  Q    There was another name that you mentioned a while ago  and that was Solomon Jack?  A     Solomon Jack.  Q    Was he a chief?  Do you remember him?  A    Yes, I know Solomon Jack.  Where is Solomon Jack a chief?  There's Solomon Jack up here but there's Paul Jack.  There's one in town.  Q    I'll see if I can find Solomon Jack.  A    'Wiiangyamuum is what they call it.  MR. PLANT:  Stuart, I am looking at page 1-85 and, Susan,  perhaps you could help me to pronounce the name there  at line 19?    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  THE WITNESS:  It was given to me.  Solomon Jack up there didn't  even know that that name was being given to,me, and my  mother told me that I've got nothing to do about that  name, because we've got our own name to look after.  Louie Jack lost their brother Solomon.  His name was  Solomon and he died, just about going crazy, and there  I am, I have been around around with them, that was the  reason why Louise mother picked me up to stay with them  and put that name on me as 'Wiiangyamuum.  I don't want  around and they're going, going out of my  my brothers play around with.  I've got all kind of names.  Tsimganootsenex  house of his.  That's why I told Solomon  a little while ago, Solomon didn't even know anything  about it.  I was the one myself, I told him, Solomon,  what you going to do?  I give it back to you right now.  It's long time ago, I have been using it around and I  don't need any more, you've got your family to use that  name.  And he told me, I don't know if I can use it,  you have already given it back right now.  that.  Going  way with me.  Frankly  that is main  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  A  Q  A  the name back to him?  Q  A  Q  So you gave  Oh yes.  Even though he didn't want it?  Yes, he didn't want it.  He can't even say he didn't  even want it, what he says, I don't know anything about  it.  I can't help it, I said, my mother told me to give  it back when I'm coming to grow up, 'Niist, and there  I am right now.  Did you give him the name or did you keep it?  I gave it to him.  I told him to have that name.  He didn't know anything about it but you gave it to him?  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 car 03."  2-170  GUNANOOT, D.,  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  is  told  Lake;  Bob  Yes.  Talk about so you get it at the ....  Is it a chief's name?  Eh?  Is that name a chief's name?  No.  Yesterday I think you told us that you went -- this  a different subject, sorry -- yesterday I think you  us that there was good berry-picking near Bob Quinn  did I hear that right?  Which one?  Did you say that there was good berry-picking near  Quinn Lake?  I didn't even catch you.  I think you were telling us yesterday about the places  that you used to go or that you go to to pick berries?  Like huckleberries and blueberries?  At Bob Quinn you said?  Yes.  That's way for -- up the Cassiar Road you're talking  about?  Yes.  That's where the berries are.  Are there berries there?  Everybody come from Kispiox, used to go up there and  picking berries, lot of berries.  Nice one too.  Did you go up to pick berries?  Oh yes, we were way up there quite a lot of times but  I didn't pick berries.  Just take them up and eat them  Black mouth.  When was the last time you went up to Bob Quinn Lake?  Gee, I don't know.  I can't remember.  A long time ago?  Yes.  Not very long.  Was about seven or eight years  ago.  You say that is up at the Cassiar Road?  Yes.  There is another name I want to ask you about and that  name is Charlie Sampson?  Yes.  I think his Gitksan name is 'Niist, is that    Harry Sampson?  Is it Harry Sampson?  I don't know which one you say?  I want to ask you about 'Niist.  'Niist?  Yes.  That's Kispiox.  Is that a Kispiox name?  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-171  GUNANOOT, D.,  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  A     Yes, 'Niist, that's Charlie Sampson.  Q     Does 'Niist have territory up near the territory of  Daniel Skawil?  A     No, got nothing to do with Skawil's.  He has got is own,  his own trapline, up to side of fourth cabin, between  third and fourth cabin.   That's the place where he's  got that.  Q     That is where his trapline is?  A     They call it Xsin nihl hlandin.  That's what they call  it, that river.  Q     Could you give us that again, please?  A     Xsin nihl hlandin.  'Ģ-- OFF THE RECORD  BY MR. PLANT:  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Is that the name of his territory?  Yes.  Even the lake is there too, T'amxsin nihl hlandin.  That's the name of the lake?  Yes, going right over to -- this is Bowser Mountain and  there's little river going -- running, coming down other  side Bowser Lake, and when you get to the bottom there  is T'amxsin nihl hlandin.  The other side of Bowser Mountain?  Bowser Mountain.  Bowser Mountain?  Yes.  Do you know someone whose name is Alfred Shanoos?  Yes.  That is little other side of seventh cabin, what  they used to call seventh cabin.  That's the place where  he's got a place there, Arthur Shanoss.  What is his Gitksan name?  Gitksan name?  Yes.  Arthur Shanoss?  Gee, I forgot.  Do you know where he is from?  Is he from Kispiox also?  I think his family left.  Peter Shanoss died up at Stewart  and his brother, daughters all died off, up there, up  to Stewart.  Margaret, Sarah, Percy.  That's them that  died.  Alfred a chief?  Yes. Not big chief.  But he had hunting territory?  Oh yes.  Do you know his house?  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 X-172  GUNANOOT, D.,  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR.  He is Txas sigwun.  That was  from, on "Ehe Stikine,  Txas sigwun.  came from?  has made a claim  I got his Indian name.  -- those name is came  That is where is name  Yes.  David, you know that the Tribal Council  to the Federal Government in Ottawa?  In Ottawa.  You know that the government in Ottawa -- you know the  Tribal Council has made a claim asking for things from  the Federal Government? Do you know about that?  That's one I've forgotten about.  Which is that?  I told  somebody -- told me that somebody would be telling me  that, you got to -- you got to join your own government,  every one of you people.  Well, I don't know which our  government is.  There's federal and what?.  Well   British Columbia.  Yes.  That's right.  And maybe there's the chiefs too.  you knew about the land claim with  Yes.  Do you know about that?  No.  Maybe that's what they're talking about because  that fellow was telling me, you got your own government  Who was that fellow?  Who tell me?  Yes.  I believe it's Ian McLeod, I think.  Up to Stewart.  He's a fellow from Stewart?  Yes. He's the mayor.  The mayor?  He's nice, always, I didn't even know.  He's always telling you things?  I wanted to  the Federal  know i f  Government?  Pardon?  He's always  Oh yes.  He's always  Yes.  PLANT:  Can we  just about  telling you things, is he?  after you, always telling you things?  take  done.  a break for a few minutes, because I'm    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  BY MR. PLANT:  Q  A  I have a few more questions, David.  was 'Niikyap, right?  What?  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189  Your chief's name C»ro3r  2-173  GUNANOOT,   D.,  Cross-Ex.  Mr.   Plant  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  16  A  17  A  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  39  Q  A  40  41  Q  42  43  44  45  A  46  r\  47  Your name  is   'Niikyap,   right?  That's right.  And you're the chief of a house, aren't you?  Yes.  Who makes the decisions in your house?  'Niikyap, maybe.  That's you?  In the whole house.  You make the decisions or is it the whole house that  makes them?  It's got to be -- it's got to be head man to do that.  I have a couple of letters, David, that I want to show  you.  One of them is a letter that I think has your  signature on it, and it's a letter to the game warden  about your trapline;  have you seen that letter before?  This one?  Yes.  Have you seen something like that before?  I know I got that one, one Martin gave me, but who made  this one?  You have a letter that Martin gave you?  Yes, I keep it, after I moved up to Stewart, on the last  day, there's too many in the house, old papers all mixed  up.  Well, this letter is just two years ago.  Two years ago?  Yes.  I'll read it to you if you like but what it says  is -- is that your signature at the bottom?  Is that  something like your signature?  Somebody, seems to be the way I'm doing things.  Maybe.  I don't know.  You're not sure?  What it says is that you, David  Gunanoot    That's right.    have a trapline and that you are authorising your  interest in that trapline to be transferred to the Tribal  Council;  do you remember doing that?  I believe I didn't even register that.  I told you, it  seems to me that's not my writing.  Okay.   So you don't remember doing this?  No.  If you don't remember doing that then you probably don't  remember getting this letter;  this is a photocopy of  a letter which is addressed to you signed by Neil Sterritt  and some other people from the Tribal Council.  It also  talks about your trapline.  Yes.  Somebody wants to do something about, for that.  I believe because I don't talk about anything about my  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 Car 03:  2-174  GUNANOOT, D.  Cross-Ex.  Mr. Plant  trapline, like what it said there.  Q     Like it said in that letter that has your name at the  bottom?  A     Yes.  Q     Well, let's just, so we know what we have been just talking about, mark the first letter which is dated April  2nd, 1984 purportedly signed by David Gunanoot, or has  the name David Gunanoot at the bottom, I should say,  as Exhibit 3;  and mark the next letter which is like  the first letter on the letterhead of the Gitksan Carrier  Tribal Council dated April 26th, 1984 addressed to --  or purportedly addressed to David Gunanoot and signed  purportedly by Mr. Sterritt, we'll mark that as Exhibit  4.  I should say for Mr. Rush's benefit, both these  documents come from the provincial government's trapline  files.  MR. RUSH: And you should know that we may well take an objection  to these because neither have been identified by the  witness. I don't mind these going in subject to an understanding at trial we may well object to them.  MR. PLANT:  In fact I agree entirely.  I just want to make sure  that everything that David has just said about those  letters can be identified to those letters and that's  why I want them marked.  I quite accept the understanding,  the way you've just put it.  --- EXHIBIT No. 3 - Letter dated April 2, 1984  with the name David Gunanoot  at the bottom, addressed  the Game Warden re: trapline.    EXHIBIT No. 4 - Letter dated April 26, 1984  on the letterhead of the  Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council  addressed to David Gunanoot  purportedly signed by Neil Sterritt.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. PLANT:  The next thing is, there has been evidence about  helicopter trips and plane trips to parts of the territory  where David Gunanoot has gone out with others.  On the  assumption there may well be notes or a record of any  of the information that arose out of those trips, I would  ask that any documents that might have been generated  from those trips be produced or disclosed.  You can make  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 Car 037  2-175  GUNANOOT, D.,  Cross-Ex., Mr. Plant  Re-Ex., Mr. Rush  MR.  MR.  MR.  any claim of privilege that you want to make in respect  of that material, again assuming it exists, at that time.  I don't have any other questions.  RUSH:  With respect to the comment that you just made we'll  -- again, if such documents exist and it's my belief  that they do -- we'll disclose them on the next document  list that we will disclose.  PLANT:  Thank you.  Well, those are all of my questions.  RUSH:  I have a few questions on re-direct.  I think maybe  I should perhaps move to your chair.    OFF THE RECORD  MR. RUSH:  David, just before I ask you a few more questions  -- I get another chance to ask you questions -- the lawyer  who is here representing the Attorney General of Canada  also has a right to ask you questions, and I'm now going  to ask Mr. Irving if he wants to ask you any questions.  John, do you want to ask any questions at this time?  MR. IRVING:  No, I will not be asking any questions of this  Witness today.  MR. RUSH:  Thanks.  RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Just one or two more questions, David, and then I think  we're finished.  I hope we're finished and I bet you  do too.  David, you talked about Muut's territory?  What?  Muut.  Where is Muut's territory?  I don't know.  I forgot which side Simon Morrison, in  the Skeena.  There's Simon Morrison right here and I  think is Muut next to there.  Because the both of them,  they got a cabin some place and they're going together  every time.  They're going up the river, same thing when  they get there and stay up there.  My mother was telling  me about that Simon Morrison.  He is some kind of close  friend to my father.  Muut is camp at our house at  Kisgagas, that was Muut.  He's going around with Simon  but they're going together to trap.  So Muut's trapline is next to Simon Morrison's?  I believe so, yes.  Further up and across the river up  there, and there's the creek goes, come down here.  That's  Johnny Morrison, no more Simon Morrison, but this is  Johnny Morrison creek.  That's his trapping place and  the old man who has been telling me about these trapline  up, up that creek, lot of beaver up there.  That's why  you got that, his ways trapping.  My mother left me with  them and I was crying because I was, I don't like to  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 0="-03."  2-176  GUNANOOT, D.,  Re-Ex.  Mr. Rush  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  be going around with people, but I was a little boy still  playing.  Finally, getting too dark and I start crying.  David, is Simon Morrison related to Johnny Morrison?  No.  No?  No.  Just last name's the same.  Johnny Morrison is Lax  Gibuu.  He's Lax Gibuu?  That means   great thing to have too, and Simon  Morrison is Giskaast.  Now you told us that you trapped yourself out there at  Treaty Creek?  That's right.  You told Mr. Plant    Who?  Mr. Plant.  Geoff? You might remember him as Geoff?  Yes.  You told him this morning that there was a Peter Morrison  who trapped at Treaty Creek?  That was long time ago.  What I wanted to ask you was:  did he trap at Treaty  Creek before William Scott or after William Scott?  That's after that.  After that.  William Scott left.  That's the time Peter Morrison was around there, right  after, and Peter Morrison took sick and go back in the  -- what is left over at his camp, and he didn't even  know that he is still back, set up, after he pushed that  wood into, where it's leaning against that big tree where  his camp is, and that wood got him right in there, opens  up inside.  He was awfully sore, so he got after the  doctor about it, and the doctor told him, you just quit  everything but to lay on the bed, get healed up and you  will be okay.  If you walking still opens up every time,  it will be no good for you.  But he didn't.  Really drinking every time and he went out with the rest of the people  and got up to Bell Irving, making raft, carried, pulling  those logs, doing that all summer.  We started out and  going out with him.  Finally took sick and what am I  going to do.  I told him we might as well go back.  No,  no, I'll be okay after while.  I said you won't be, you  won't be, you'll be dead.  No, one more trip, and he  got about one case of rum, that's all he cares about,  rum.  Finally he really had it and took sick.  Finally  he died and me and Paul, what we're going to do, and  Jack or Charlie, Charlie Beal, that's another white man,  bring him back.  I was going to try and take him to town.  I just about trying but the doctor said, you wouldn't  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 :ar03.-  2-177  GUNANOOT,    D.,  Re-Ex.  Mr.   Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  (  A  Q  A  Q  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  be doing very good if you tried but, no, you can't, you  will be too late   It's healed up and there's --  he got circles right into it and comes finally he got.  no place for anything what he eat.  Now that's the time  you got bit for that, you operate him.  You got a good  idea, you being man, to think about that but, you know,  you will never make, same as everybody.  Was Peter Morrison, was he Lax Gibuu?  No, Laxsilyu.  He was Laxsilyu?  Yes.  What village was he from?  That is Dan Skawil's nephew.  Yes, that's his nephew.  You were asked about Gerry Gunanoot? You remember Gerry?  Gerry?  Yes.  'Wiinaagets?  What?  You were asked about Gerry?  What?  Where is his territory?  Gerry?  Gerry's terr i tory ?  That was mine.  I put him on my land.  That's the line up at Treaty Creek?  Yes, that's right.  Did he have some other territory?  No.  He didn't have anything else?  No.  Okay.  He leave that to one he has got, up to my mother's, given  it to those McCain's family.  Because we got too much  land for that there up to Bear Lake, there's too much.  Goes to Samuel Brown.  That will finish everything about  the funeral like that,  and that's about the name.  Quite  a lot of things about that.   Some of the people, they're  picking up that kind of thing about three times before  everything's settled.  Gerry's name, his Gitksan name is 'Wiinaagets?  That's right.  Where is 'Wiinaagets' territory?  Does he have any  territory?  That's what I mean, up to, past Kisgagas, right there.  You were asked about Alfred Shanoss   Arthur Shanoss?  Yes.  What village is he from?  He comes from, the family up to Galdo'o, and that part  of the family is Charlie 'Niist -- is that right?  Charlie  Sampson.  Yes, that's his family.  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-178  GUNANOOT, D.,  Re-Ex.  Mr. Rush  Q  A  A  A  Q  A  Q     And you told us about Ian McLeod over at Stewart, the  mayor over there?  A     That's right.  Q     Is he still the mayor?  A     I believe so.  Sometimes, you know, they try and quit  that but they all, they just leave it the way it is  because he's too nice, too nice for everything what he  has on.  Just let it go the way it is.  So I think, I  don't know if they get new one now, I think.  I heard  that, I heard that they has been talking about that --  his name is Dave, the one looking after the -- got a  drugstore up there.  A lot of the town closed up over there when the mine  shut down?  Oh yes.  They did that but they don't care about that.  You mean Grand Duke?  Yes.  Yes, I have been up to that Grand Duke, another few years.  I was lucky there at the time when there was 27 people  illed there.  Were you working there then?  Yes, that was logs.  I was just thrown out of the job  up there, so the reason why Campbell, Jack Campbell,  sent me down, you can go home today, Dave.  I was going.  I thought I was out to make it for one year.  It's only  about four months to go, finish one year, and rest for  a while.  Or might go two years.  Take trip for -- take  a     a trip around, for three trips with pay too.  Q     It'salways paid when you get paid, isn't it?  A     Yes.  But, no, can't make it that time.  He sent me down.  Alan meet me at the hotel and he said, you don't have  to go home, Dave, you're chimney break down on top of  the house.  That's okay, I can stay here, fix it up.  Sometime everybody drunk.  Q     David, did you    A     Takes a little time.  Q     Yes.  A     Get up and go down, go down the bar, it's already open  at 11 o'clock, and there he goes in, hey, look, there  goes the lucky man, and he comes behind me and patted  me on my back, did you hear the news yet, Dave.  What  news?  You remember your camp up there, up Grand Duke,  27 man got killed there last night.  You're lucky you're  coming out.  Twenty-seven.  When they start, a short  while after that they sent the bulldozer man, she looks  like eyes in the snow there.  He stopped and watched  it, and he sees the eyes moving.  That's the time he  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 2-179  GUNANOOT, D.,  Re-Ex., Mr. Rush  Proceedings  shut the thing right off and jump right off.  Cut the  sound off, can't even talk.  They take, they call some  of these people looking for bodies.  They shovel right  around, finally they get them out.   Same time they get  them out, there's a plane, they put them on the plane,  Grand Duke to Vancouver.  Just a few minutes flying.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  RUSH:  David, those  WITNESS:  Oh yes.  RUSH:  I think that  so I think we're  Yes.  would like  Maybe you  the Indian  are all the questions I have.  MR.  THE  MR.  s all the questions any of us have,  over now.  WITNESS:  RUSH:  I would like to thank you very much.  WITNESS:  Maybe you tell like about lucky, that is old.story  about the Indian talking too much and sleeping, asking  this owl   keep on saying that.  Finally, daylight  comes and you grey face, you grey face    He going  down dead.  Can't even talk no more.  RUSH:  That was the end of the talking, was it?  WITNESS:  Yes.  RUSH:  Thanks a lot, David.    PROCEEDINGS CONCLUDED 3.20 p.m. 14 MAY, 1986  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein, to the  best of my skill and ability.  AVD-Jan.14/87  Veronica HarperNfMs)  Official Court Reporter  B.C.S.R.A. #263  Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189 Veronica Harper  Official Court Reporter  874-6189

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