mbS WS 3^ lAi" IN THE SUPREME COURT OF BRITISH COLUMBIA No. 0834 Hazelton, B.C., Smithers Registry 13 & 14 May, 1986 BETWEEN: AND: DELGAM UUKW, also known as ALBERT TAIT, suing on his own behalf and on behalf of all the members of the HOUSE OF DELGAM UUKW AND OTHERS, Plaintiffs HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN. THE RIGHT OF THE PROVINCE 0"FV BRITISH COLUMBIA, V. et al, v N Defendants "^ V^W- .-:V COMMISSION EVIDENCE of DAVID GUNANOOT VOLUME II COPY TO : PETER R. GRANT, ESQ., (1) HAZELTON, B.C. d 2-96 GUNANOOT, D., In Chief Mr. Rush DAVID GUNANOOT, a witness called on behalf of the Plaintiffs, previously affirmed, testifies as follows: RALPH MICHELL, Gitksan Interpreter, previously affirmed. UPON COMMENCING AT 12.45 p.m., Tuesday, 13 May, 1986 MR. RUSH: We'll start this next session of the Commission, David. THE WITNESS: What's that? MR. RUSH: We'll start our evidence now. Today is May 13th. It has been a while since we last got together. \I ' ve got some questions for you. EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH (continued) Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q The last time you were giving us evidence you told us about Haiwas. Haiwas? He is related to you, is he? That's supposed to be my mother's father. Your mother's father? Yes. You also told us about a man by the name of Black Hat Tom? That's Bill Leek. Is he related to you? Supposed to be, my uncle. Your uncle? Yes. Is he your uncle on your mother's side? Yes. He's a brother to your mother, is he? Yes, pretty close. I wanted to ask you about berry picking? Which one? Berries? Berry picking. Have you ever done any berry picking? I don't know -- what? You know what I'm talking about? Huckleberries? Huckleberries? Yes. Did you ever pick any of those? Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 car 037 2-97 GUNANOOT, D., In Chief Mr. Rush A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Oh yes. Where did you pick those, David? Now? Yes. Used to be quite a lot around Two Bear Lake too. Little besides that. That's where I see quite a lot, I think, when I was a kid but now, after that big fire, Bob Quinn Lake, that's the place they're picking berries right now. Where is that? The other side Bob Quinn Lake. Bob Quinn Lake. That's where a lot of people going now after that big fire. Did you ever pick berries down by Kisgagas? few of them around there, but it's all right for those they call blueberries. That's what they're picking up around there. , v What's the place where you pick the blueberries, by *'Ģ Kisgagas? Too many places. Used to call that I forgot now. I forget. Kind of big flat around there, that's the place where they used to pick those blueberries. Was there any place down there where your mother had a blueberry patch? Yes, everybody around there, not only my mother. When you start picking them. I have shown the others. Did you ever pick any blueberries over on Skawil's territory? Quite a bunch of them now. Timbers around there. Couple of years after newborn timbers, they all covered up with berry bushes. Just let me ask you about -- you told us about Skawil's territory the last time we were asking you questions. Can you tell us how Skawil got his territory? How did he got it? Yes. How did that territory first come to Skawil? On account of that man from Kispiox used to go up to Kispiox River and go over to Slamgiist and going up to the Thompson River. In the spring time when the Stikine been using that net for the beavers. They catching those beavers by their home-made net by themselves. This man from Kispiox, they making hole on top of those beaver houses. Those Stikines got mad and they tell the man to quit that, what they're doing. Those beavers, they scared them out of the houses, and that's an awful long time to find where the beavers went. Telling them to quit it. Quit it. No. Next year they come back again and still done the same thing again. They been sitting Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 coro3r 2-98 GUNANOOT, D., In Chief Mr. Rush together and talk it over between the Stikine. Talk it over. Talk it over. So they're already to put that out. But there's one Galdo'o over there. He's a big husky young fellow. Very young fellow. He was listening to them, but how's he going to stop it? He can't stop it. It's only the one from Galdo'o himself listening for that. They see that man coming again, and that was still the same time so they shoot them. And they're going over there and they look what they kill, what they got, and there was the big chief. Big chief. Q What was his name? A His name was Xskiigimlaxha. MR. PLANT: Xskiigimlaxha? MR. RUSH: Xskiigimlaxha. THE WITNESS: moved back, and they moved back, and they promised to go east, back to Awiijii. That's the time they got where they waiting for that Nass River people*, at that time, but they didn't even get it. But they stayed up to Awiijii. They didn't even go back to the Thompson River any more after that. That fellow who has been with them from Galdo'o got a big fight back of that, those black powder, but he run into some place on a lake with his back to that black powder and the chief, the Stikine chief, when they camped the powder was still all right, not wet at all, but the chief was talking about when we got up to Stikine, I'll sell you for one keg of powder when we get up there. That young fellow was the kind, they don't like the idea. That fellow, that old man. They still keep going, they still go with them. He's kind of worried. They want it to be sold by the people and be a slave for the others. So they think about what they're going to do. Noticed his shoes to be worn out, snow shoes, those heavy things, started to break out, and he told the Stikine people "I'll be sitting here for a while and re-fit my snow shoes". He's talking too much. That fellow was still building his snow shoes as fast as he can but he made it all right. He made it right up the top of the mountain, where the hard snow is. Finally he got on top of the mountains, he got stuck at one place that's too narrow, right at the top of the skyline, top of the mountain. Finally, he opened his legs and just go, like that, with his two legs going across that, and go down, and goodbye. Go down and goodbye. Nothing but too steep. Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-99 GUNANOOT, In Chief Mr. Rush D. Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Still keep on. Finally got on the other side and he looked back, waiting for them, to see them covering over. Wants to see them coming over, them come and they started out on the other they see that top of the mountain is too all came back and go home. the run again. This is the Galdo'o man still? What? This is the man from Galdo'o? Yes. Where does he go? Keep on going to Galdo'o. He and cross into one little creek Luuskeexwt. That place where why they call it Luuskeexwt. There goes But they see side. Quietly so they he's on much him, went over They call that little They still that mountain it creek, that's keep on going Treat That's until he got to Old Galdo'o and that's that. him -- some kind of soup, gave him the soup. all he could eat is soup. Still keeping on doing it until he's strong enough to talk and start telling all the story about those Stikine people. They take that part -- I don't know what they call that, that gun, which start a fire, I don't know the name -- he knocked that off with that. That gun which for that, where they shoot that old man. And shoe building, they cut them off and tied and they show it to Galdo'o and they give that. witness, what he saw. They believed that. awful long time at that time when they start, my father's father. take that name as Xskiigimlaxha. was sick and my daddy packed his was bringing trouble here. they use his snow together That is That was my grandfather, Yes. That was at least one But he died after. He father until after he Macintosh troubles. Did your grandfather find out about Xskiigimlaxha? Did he find out he was dead? That's why my grandfather take the name. What did your grandfather do? Which what? What did your grandfather do chief was dead? That's all he does, he takes name. What was Xskiigimlaxha. What was the man's name from Galdo'o Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 when he found out the old the name. He takes the Znroj: 2-100 GUNANOOT, In Chief Mr. Rush D. A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A name kid? That's what I forget. I can't forget that. Do you remember the You mean that young Yes. That's what I I see. They used forget it. Okay. He's a big long wood a big pile Who buried 'Ģ I can't remember of the mountain that he crossed? can't remember. to tell me about it a long time ago but I strong fellow. Goes to camp. Taking those just chewed right out. Just kept on, got of wood. Still keep on doing that, the old chief that was shot by the Stikine? I don't know. I don't know everything Where I think that was Galdo body and take him into far from there. He's who took that name and Okay. So he took that chief spend everything what he o going out there and pick the Galdo'o, because it's not v>ery got to be my grandfather I think maybe he's the one taking that. name at the same s got about that. time when he OFF THE RECORD BY MR. RUSH: Q A Q A people go up and fight with the them went out there after the name was Solomon Dick and yes, Dan Skawil and I Q A Q A Now, David, did some Stikine after that? That is when a few of Galdo'o. Who went out there? There's a man I know. His Tom Sampson and Dan Skawil -- forget who is the other. There's more. And there's the woman. I for^got his name -- her name too. The one that has been trained as --to handle those like thirty-three or forty-four. What happened then? Where did they go? They went upto Awiijii. What happened up there? They get out of there, they go up, going up there and when they got out of there and there's the woman outside picking up those kind with wood to put into the -- I don't know what it was -- I think that was fire. The woman see them coming out between the bush there, and they hollered inside the house of them. In a very short time time there goes the man outside. He showed himself Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2,-10,0/1 GUNANOOT, D., In Chief Mr. Rush Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q for what that woman talking about. It's up in arms, It's nothing, nothing at all, no nothing, nothing on her belt, just little slippers on the feet. Well, the old Skawil you talking about, they surrender, they give up, they're not going to fight. The man want that, the chief Stikine, called him over coming out, she with used to line up that that's the fastest that woman. The being trained to and they right in. That woman was rifle, that's what he's got. They line it up on the log like that .. shooter that they ever seen, about Stikine bought that woman that was fire so many shots. They think they scared to attack because she only a woman, she clean them up in short time. Being trained. I used to remember the story when I seen that .... I forgot what is that show. Now, when the Stikine Chief asked Skawil to come over and talk Yes. ' \ what did they talk about? Standing outside for a while and the rest of them, busy inside the house. When they get ready and somebody opened that swinging doors,; talking to the chief, come on in. There's big beaver meat was still swirling around. That's how they roast that meat still, very hot fire. Still keep on. Quietly they talk about, and they watched that too. There's not a sign for that cooked fresh meat before. Watched that and they take that beaver meat and they cut it up in pieces. Very nice, no blood, no nothing, very nice, really cooked. It's really cooked. If there is still blood in that meat that means they're going to fight again. Hang on to that knives, really cooked, they don't say anything. Okay. When they through, that get all those bunch, that's regular thing with the old beaver. Tanned moose, tanned moose hide. Cariboos. Bear. Grizzlys. Any kind of thing what they could use into the rooms. Even those mountain goat skins. Used to wash them with -- clean them up and use them as a bed. Mattress. That's what they use. What did they do with the hides? What's that you mean? What did they do with them? They all pile up and given to them. Who gave it to who? The Stikine people give it to Skawil in kind of Who did they give it to? Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-102 GUNANOOT, In Chief Mr. Rush D. A Q A Q A Q A Q Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A They give it to Skawil's bunch. What did that mean when they gave it to them? That means that pays for the dirty work. Pays for the dirty work. And even the land they going to pull their feet off that land and move it up beween the Bell Irving River to Shannoji River. That's the place where they're going to camp when they meet again. But they didn't even get there. As far as they all went Skawil goes, to Awiijii. Now That's Stikine Awiijii. Awiijii. Did Skawil get the Awiijii land? Yes, they give it to Skawil. Okay. Yes, Stikine give it to Skawil. Did they give Stikine any -- excuse me -- did they giv^e Skawil anything else? Did they Nothing. Was this a peace settlement? Yes. They give it to the chief, to the two chiefs. What do they call the peace settlement? What's that? What do they call it when they make peace? That's what they call it, Xsiisxw. Xsiisxw. Did they give Skawil anything? Did they give him something to show that it was a peace? That is what they gave what I'm telling you, all of those moose hides, moose tan and hides, and caribou, grizzlys and the black bear. Any kind thing like that. Did they also give a feather? Oh yes. That's the main part of it. At that time, there they goes, that chief, I just forget that. They took that big red feather, kind of silky one, and grab it here take this and don't lose it, don't give it away. If it is any trouble for you, you better take this one and show that who try and get you into trouble. Old Skawil take that feather and put it away. Hunt at Kitwanga one time when I was down there. They like me to tell everything about Skawil. And even about my dad's gun that night. I'll ask you about your dad's gun in just a minute but who's got the red feather today? I heard that was Jessie Sterritt looking after that. Now, you have seen the red feather, have you? Oh yes. Who showed it to you? I was handling it, and I was the one who has been talking Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 ZfTOZT 2-103 GUNANOOT, In Chief Mr. Rush D. Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A @ A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q about that down tell them where Okay. They call it T' iye What * s there. They take me up that feather came from. to show them and itxwm gawaganii what they call millimetre? it. that called? That's what they call it. Tell me again? T'iye'itxwm gawaganii, that's What about your father's nine What? Your father's gun? There's those guns. Two guns? After my dad was being taken out, after the trouble about that Macintosh, and there's the gun right into talking about -- everybody talking about the gun can shoot ten shots for one, for just one shot and never miss anything that they could shoot for. So my dad'was down tYhere and his friend who had some people just showed them the gun and got so many of those buck-shot with those guns that was German Luger. Where did it come from? That's what they call that German Luger. Where did your dad get the German Luger? Hudson Bay. Okay. When they take this gun out they get a case and they take the gun out of there and just leave it on the front there and there you go, you're ready to shoot. Now, you said I think that there were two guns? Well, the old man Skawil was kind of worried about my dad, that's his brother or he's my father, so he seen that gun in there, throw it out, maybe Gunanoot will be run out of village and I'll get those shell Jor the --_ if I get one of the gun. So the old man buy that gun too, so that will be two guns out of the Hudson Bay. It's to talk about it now, those two guns go no more, Just German Luger. That's why they give it talk about it down to Kitwanga. I show it to too late no more. to me to them. Where's the gun now? I think it's still down there. Down at Kitwanga? No, at Miss Sterritt. At Mrs. Sterritt's house? Yes. I believe that's the one because she's the one looking after those things belong to old man Skawil. Well, now Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-104 GUNANOOT, D., In Chief Mr. Rush A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q My dad gave up to Bell Lake the man, his name was Tyee, Big Chief Tyee from --I forget what they call that -- some place back there. He's already getting mad for every body talking about he scared my dad to death after he does the murder, so he takes that gun and give it to Tyee for nothing. There, I'm going to give myself to make those people who called me I'm scared, So he did give it over for nothing. I Skawil bought that from the gun store. been good for me. David, just about when you told us how Skawil got the Awiijii territory Well, that's you told us about the Kispiox man who came down and put a hole in the beaver Yes, that's right. What did he do when he put the hole in I'm not scared, said to myself It would have the beaver house? that there was a Galdo'o that went with it was going 1t shoot him they uncle. That They scaring the beaver for those Stikine. \ I see. That's why they shot him. And they made a mistake for the wrong man. They shooting the chief instead of shooting that man who has been poking the holes on top of the beave house. What was that man's name, do you remember? I don't know. Now, you said _ the Stikine? That's the Galdo'o that was -- that was, to be all right if it is -- if they didn would have found one of my grandfather's is the one that shoot him there. Yes. That's my grandfather-' s uncle. That was still Xskiigimlaxha anyway his name. When the Galdo'o man you told us about got away from the Stikine and went back to Galdo'o what did he show them? What did he show the Galdo'o people? You mean the young fellow? Yes. When the young man got back to Galdo'o? They got that new snow shoe filling. And that hammer for that old china wall. What was the hammer from? It came from that gun which they using for that when they shoot that man. They not supposed to shoot people, that was bad luck. They keep on carrying that like that using for murder. That's why they threw that gun away but that young kid, they knock it off. Did he show this hammer to the other people? Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-105 GUNANOOT, D. In Chief Mr. Rush A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A They just give it to the people, to the Galdo'o people. Just like the witness anyway. Now, do you know how long ago this was when this happened? When old Xskiigimlaxha was murdered? How long ago was that? I don't know. He was born after. Too long ago. Okay. I was with Skawil for lot of time. Who told you about the account of Xskiigimlaxha's death? Who told you about? Which Xskiigimlaxha? The old man that was killed by the Stikine. Who told you that? Too many people. William Jackson telling me about that. Dan Skawil. Quite a few people telling me about that. Even my grandmother would have been telling me the story. I learn -- my grandmother used to me lot of, stories b<3caus I asked and I always sleep with my grandmother because1- I seen everybody pitching to their bed and I know they're going to bed. I go to my grandmother Now alongside of her, I used to say "tell me the story" and there goes my grandmother. Lay down and there goes, start telling the story. David, why was -- before old Xskiigimlaxha was killed by the Stikine What? Before old man Xskiigimlaxha, before he was killed by the Stikine, what was he doing up there in Awiijii? Xsk ii g imlaxha ? YesT the old man that was killed. What did he do up there That was Thompson River way where they killed him. What was Xskiigimlaxha doing there? Well, he always joining the Stikine people and he was kind of friend for him, and they knows him, that he was coming into Galdo'o and they look for that Xskiigimlaxha and spend the night with him, and off again. But when Xskiigimlaxha was up at Awiijii, was he hunting or trapping or fishing? Or was he doing something up there? They used to do some trapping around there but they don't break any houses. Yes. They used to trap for marten. That's what they talk about Now, does the Thompson River have another name7 Thompson River? Yes. Is there another name for it? I don't know. I don't know the name. Xsi txemsem for Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-106 GUNANOOT, In Chief Mr. Rush D. those two it is. rivers. There comes the river and that, whateve OFF THE RECORD BY MR. RUSH: Q A Q A Q Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A I just wonder, is the Nass River the same as the Thompson River? Those two rivers. Are they the same river though? Yes. I see. MR. PLANT: I'm glad you do'. . BY MR. RUSH: Nov;, the territory, the trapping territory -- sorry, let me start again. The hunting territory that was part of the Xsiisxw, was TAft Creek in that area? ' \ Yes. Both sides. But different on the other side and the mountain on the other side, Taft Creek right here and there's water on the other side, just like that. Like a triangle? I was being questioned for that, a long time ago. The people wants to see how wide the Indian on top of the mountain, so they can do their prospecting: That's all I could say, they just the same as anybody on top of the mountain. There's the creek right there and there's the divide and now gets spread around on top of the mountain like that, getting away. Okay. The other fellow run and the other fellow was the other side of the mountain. Okay. Look at that Awiijii and that, you walk right here and go right down to the cabin, and there it is again, still the same thing. Like that. Was that the divide? Yes. No place for them, they didn't even -- that's the line. Okay. Even as now on those line, on those line thing. I made the land claims on top of Now, you talked about Ninth Cabin Creek, Cabin Creek? Yes. Is that part of Skawil's territory? Yes. They call the creek there, that's the line thing, about the creek and the point, like that, Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 still the same the mountain. do you know Ninth of the point cn'or 2-107 GUNANOOT, D. In Chief, Mr. Rush. Q Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q of the mountain going like that, there's the nine and the part of the mountain right there that goes down to Awiijii. Do you know, does Ninth Cabin Creek, does that have a Gitksan name? That's up to the people up to Eighth Cabin to talk about that. Because I got nothing to do about it. I see. There's quite a few of them around. Yes. They will be talking about her yesterday. About the people. Glen Vowell asking about that line. I told them I don't know about that but as far as I know is that one is talking about the middle name of that creek, goes down to Seventh Cabin is Xsic/umbat they call that. Eight Cabin. They one of them right here. Eighth Cabin go down this way, and there's one right here, go down he're, and there's one about right here, goes down, that was like from black water. Can you tell us the Gitksan name of that creek again? Which one? I think you said it was Seventh Cabin Creek? Seventh Cabin? Seventh Cabin Creek. That's Xsigumbat. That woman who was here yesterday. Okay. That is Philip Wilson. Who owned it? Philip Wilson. Philip Wilson. Yes, but I forgot his Indian name. Now, does Ninth Cabin Creek have another English name? Ninth Cabin? Yes. Does that I don't know. That's what they call it, I don't know English. Okay. As far as I know we call, used to call it ... doesn't got the Bell Irving. Each time I see it. Bell Irving, up to Stewart one time. Yes. There's a man following that river right up. Bell Irving River. That's why they call that Bell Irving. Is Ninth Cabin Creek -- you mentioned Salmon River to us the last time, where's Salmon River? Salmon River? Well, that's came from Higgins Lake. Higgins Lake? Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 Car Mr 2-108 GUNANOOT, D. In Chief, Mr. Rush. A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Q A Q Yes. Where does that flow to? It's going into Bell Irving. Does it have a Gitksan name? You mean that? Salmon River, what's that name? That was, belongs to Stikine long time ago. So I don't know very much. Even that snow-man, I don't know very much about it. Okay. Very close to Skawil's, I mean to Matt Higgins camp. Goes right up there. There's a creek, we used to call it What did you call it? North Fork. North Fork? Yes. Another one like that again. 'Ģ \ Was North Fork in Skawil's territory? Yes. But it's not on his map. It's already belonged --divides that and that Stikine. That's why we're talking about -- asking me about this one that was Salmon River, and that one. Bell Irving. When the Old Man Skawi] gets up to Awiijii, they got to go up there and make a camp between those two places, Salmon River and that Bell Irving. But the Old Man is too old to go up, so the reason why, when he's getting to Awaiijii, he set to collect the beavers around, and he want to shoot the mountain goat and anybody goes with him. I shoot quite a few around there for him, helping him out. ;Goats used to pass you out when there's plenty. I used to go around there, shoot a bunch of moose for him, and go out there himself and use for himself. I'm going to -- I want to talk about another territory now. Yes. I want to leave Skawil's territory and I want to ask you about some territory over by Bear Lake. About Bear Lake? Yes. Earlier you were telling us about Black Hat Tom? Yes. Now, you told me earlier today -- how did Black Hat Tom get his name? Just because he's always using that big black hat, big cowboy black hat. That's why. Did you use to trap or hunt with him? He's got plenty place around here. One time. Did he tell you about a place called the old rock with Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 Cf>r03r 2-109 GUNANOOT, D. In Chief, Mr. Rush. A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A the arrows in it? That's what they call it, Satsiis they call it. They call it Satsiis? Yes. What does that mean, Satsiis? Satsiis, the arrow -- I don't know what it means. It's the arrow, Arrow Rock. Arrow Rock? Yes. Those old people they used to coming in from Kiscjacjas and they get up to the corner on the other side and they're going over there and they seen somebody arouncjl so they cut down some wood, dried wood and making some kind with raft and rafted it over to .... What Lake? Takla Lake. Takla Lake? Yes. They still get on. They get off on the other side They don't want anybody to spot them so they get off 'Ģ on that raft and walk right on the big bone timber on the other side. There they go. Canoe come around and that point. The captain was talking about, stop, and they stop. They never moved on and that canoe still floated and stay there quiet, they didn't even move around. Still keep on doing that. Finally, they turn around, go back behind it, and the captain said "don't move, you guys don't move". They still keep on, the same thing, just like a little bit of timbers. That's how it looks to that canoe. They went back again, to come back again, and they stopped. "Why you being stopped?" It is still the same thing again. Doesn't move at all. But there, they just didn't move. Okay, still going to tell them again "don't move". "They'll come back again". They come back again. He figured, the captain knows how many. Finally, they still the same thing, stop right there, and turn around and go back, and they come back so fast this time, this will be the last one. "So, don't move." "Every one of you don't move". "They will go back and come back again." "If we're still again, they'll go home." That's already finishing that, and the first fight up to that old landing. Old landing? Yes. And those people in the canoe they knows something's wrong with those people. That's why the people can't get over for their own village. They go back. Very short time they're they go, come back again. Keep on running. Going north again. Quite a few of them Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 C»r r,37 2-110 GUNANOOT, D. In Chief, Mr. Rush. Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A left on the other side. There's nothing but the -- what is it now? The canoe that was nothing but wood box. They making hole in .... they making the hole in every one of them. Those two people they know it was -- they got cornered into the water, so the reason they jump in the canoes and they're going right out and there goes the water, those canoes. Way out. Every one of them swimming around. Nobody could make it on that dry land, they kill themselves. What did they do when they got to the landing? What they do? You mean they killed them those people who were there. Okay, who killed who? Who did the killing? Kiscjacras people. Who did they kill? I didn't even know their name. It's too many of them. They called them Gitanmaas. ' \ What did they call them, again? Gitanmaas. They all took canoes and every one of them, they get off themselves, they save for themselves. They jump right in there. The arrows aren't no good at all. They didn't use the arrows. They drowned themselves in the lake. There goes the arrows. Where did they shoot They shooting into the Satsiis. I seen that Satsiis. Did you see When I was a kid. It is still hanging just like that. If you ever seen, cut up, those kind things like that, you know, electric. Cord? Electric cord? Yes. White. Exactly the same thing, about that long, hanging down. Black Hat Tom told me about. You see those white things hanging down there, that's the arrow. Last time they made battle, long time ago. Look how it looks. I'll find that out what -- what they call it? Some kind of -- any kind of dried weeds hanging down. Dried weeds hanging down. I would have called that, if it wasn't the Old Man to tell me about it, that was Satsiis. You saw that there, did you? I think that was Tsiis they call that. How many arrows were there? That's quite a bunch. That's quite a bunch. They don't need it any more. They just playing with the arrows. That's why they shot them up there? Yes. They cleaned the people around. Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 CaTr)3T 2-111 GUNANOOT, D. In Chief, Mr. Rush. Q A 0 A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q What was the name of the lake that this happened on? What I'm talking about now? Yes. The lake? That was -- I think that is what they call it is Takla: Lake, they call it. I only know what they call the peopl^ around there, Gitanmaas. Did the Hudson's Bay Company some time after, did they have a house in that area? Maybe, I don't know. I was being around there but two or three times after I'm coming to be a young fellow anyway. Hudson Bay was there and McCorkan whose got the store there, two stores. That's where they got those shops around the back there, that's where they get the supplies for everything. We run out of some fruit, me and my brother Alec and Charlie, because the three of us have been travelling around together, and that was making a joke around any place where any camps we found, there goes the , making awful funny story. After the people were killed there, did the Kiscjagas people get some territory? They don't bother about it. What was the territory in there? That's all, that some of those people they came from Babine and Xskiigimlaxha. But when the Gitanmaas were killed Yes. That's them there now. I met some of them at the time when me and .... Black Hat? Yes. Black Hat Tom? NO. I already through with Black Hat Tom. When me and Neil went up there. Oh yes. I met quite a few of them around there. They're from Gitanmaax. The old people. They're all young. They call us but not, I told them, what is everyone talking about. I can't even say anything about you people. If I leave you guys, I go down to Kiscjagas and I'll show you the old trails when I was a little kid. Go down to Cottonwood, I'll show you, that's my grandfather's old trail. It's all blazed up for good many many years ago. I am going to say this belonged to the people. That's all I have to do, just following the old blazing again. They were telling us about them going up another call last August but Neil get the answer for that. Been up to Stewart too about another thing. Just before we leave Takla Lake, the Takla Lake territory!. Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 Cf>r 037 2-112 GUNANOOT, D., In Chief, Mr. Rush. A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A forgot. Q A Q A did your mother have territory up there? That was way up there but we just let it go. What was the name of her territory? Oh I forgot now. Used to call it -- gee, I There's Paul Jacks trapline around there. Paul Jack's? Yes. Yes? That goes down to that creek where you going into Bear Lake, and there goes Sustut. Sustut? Yes. There's Sustut right there and -- gee, I forgot. Does it run into Bear Lake? No. My mother belonged to that creek, is going down out to the head of the ... wait now. Was it called Tootee Creek? That's right, yes. That's Tootee. \ Yes? Yes, that's my mother, all of that creek. How did she get it? I told them, that was — belongs to Tootee's father and his father died and he finished there, around there, and just the same as up to which they call Tsil Tsila, same thing again. They got it to Tootee. Really ... those too many people from that Takla Lake goes up from that to that creek. Me and my dad goes up there and we watching everything and nothing but camps and some blazes where they camping, and we run into Bear Lake Charlie. He's the one telling us about, you guys are too late, if you only come here a few years ago, you would have seen the beaver at that creek. Just like the lake. How did your mother get the territory at Tootee? Tootee? How did she get it? That is what I mean. I don't know. But she's doing owning that. Some get, have sisters around there, also back at home, but the regular father is into Kisgacjas which is Tsil Tsila. But Tsil Tsila returned to the family all right but she don't need it any more. She she finished, her father, and spend whole lot of money for groceries there. My daughters of mine money and everybody was thinking about his kind of striving to get out there, because she's been running away from the government. Not only does she got that but bundles of fur, just give it to her, from way down there, .... in this building here, there's the store here, big store Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 CarQ3: 2-113 GUNANOOT, D. In Chief, Mr. Rush. Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q belong to C.B. Smith. He knows my father. Anything that my father want, just let it go. Don't care about it. They buying furs for him and Margaret, when she was a little wee girl, she's one think of all others for a while. When Maggie Wright heard about "where's my daddy camping, told her Hudson Bay, goes up there. Buy it all for. Sometime .... out there, doing some things, buying groceries. He's got all kinds of money because he's got thousand dollars for the grizzly on his back. Sometimes hired a man who had a horse up there, Philip Morrison. That's the man who used to pack the groceries for him up to Kiscjacjas. I read it on the newspaper that he was I was laughing some time. They didn't even know anything. That's all he cares about. That's quite a bunch of them. Even when he got out, I got — he's got some of the horses up to George Barns, 27 head of horses, bringing some to Bear Lake.\ Got a little house over there. Made some kind of logs. They get something. There's a man from Bear Lake goes up to where the Stikine people live. They tell these people Simon's up there, where the grocery, everything we need, we go up there and buy, groceries, what we want, plenty tea, sugar. Tobacco. Chewing tobacco. They go for that. I don't know how many cases of big tobacco. They just buy it right out. Did you chew tobacco as a boy? Eh? Did you chew tobacco as a boy? Oh yes. David, who told you about the battle with the Gitanmaas? Gitanmaas? Who told you about that? Even my mother, my grandmother, even Black Hat Tom, we was talking about that. His wife, Maryanne, that's what his wife's name, Maryanne. How long ago did the battle with the Gitanmaas happen? Oh gee, maybe quite a long time. I think that was awful long time. Getting too old now, for me. David, I am going to ask you about something else now. I want to ask you about a couple of feast books that you have. Do you remember I showed you the Oh yes. showed these to you today? Oh yes. I've got some copies of these feast books and you've Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-114 GUNANOOT, In Chief, Mr. Rush. D. got the real ones at home? Q Right. Just let me show you these. The first one's just named "DAvid Gunanoot, 1982, Alex Gunanoot". A Yes. Q Was a feast book that was kept for your brother's feast, Alex? A Yes. That's what I spent. Q This records what you spent, is it? A That's right. Just a record of what I did. Q Now, who did the writing on this book? A I think that was -- I forgot now -- that was Maisie, I forgot. Q Okay. A Maybe he'll remember. Q What's the Gitksan name for the person who does the writing in the book? A Which one? . \ Q What's the Gitksan name for the person who writes in the book? A T'imisit. MR. PLANT: Can I have that name again? OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION BY MR. RUSH: Q Is it T'imisit? A Yes, T'imisit. Just what they do, look after, T'imisit. Q That's what Veronica is here. A Yes. MR. RUSH: I'm going to have this copy of David Gunanoot, 1982, Alex feast book marked as an exhibit. THE WITNESS: I don't even know what I put on that. Look how much I spend on my costs. Who got some of my groceries up to Smithers some time. That didn't even go in that. MR. RUSH: Just wait a minute. THE WITNESS: It's all right. MR. RUSH: We won't take that into account now. Just pause a moment here, David, while we get this marked as an exhibit. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION EXHIBIT No. 1 - Feast book entitled "David Gunanoot, 1982, Alex Gunanoot". SHORT RECESS Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 car 03; 2-115 GUNANOOT, D. In Chief, Mr. Rush. BY MR. RUSH: Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Q Well, we can start again, after our break, David. I wanted to ask you about the feast book. You were telling us who the person was that wrote the feast book; can you give us her name again? Which one? I think you said her name was Mersey, was it? Or Mercy? Maisie. What was her last name? I forget again. Was it Kusick, Mercy Kusick? Yes, Kusick. This was at Alex Gunanoot's feast, was it? Yes. What happened at Alex Gunanoot's feast? He just died. He died, I can't do anything about it, so I put the feast up. I'm the one putting that feasvt. You put up the feast? v. Yes. At this feast Yes. was there a name given at this feast? I should have got that name but I don't know. I was kind of upset quite a bit about for everything. Of cours£ I know I was only the one, Charlie was sick himself. Simon was sick by himself. And now just the same thing. This is what I was thinking about. Alex died and I should have got that name and keep it into myself again. What name was that? Muut. You had a feast when Charlie died too, didn't you? That's right, yes. There's another feast book here, it's the second one called "1983 Charles Gunanoot"? That's right. This was the feast book that was prepared for his feast too, was it? That's right. Do you know who did this one? Who wrote this? Still the same. The same. I am going to ask that this be marked as the next exhibit. She's the one looking after those things like that. Still writing everything. They just coming in and she write in down. She recorded all the money coming in, did she? Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 cnr oar 2-116 GUNANOOT, D., In Chief, Mr. Rush. A Yes. Q Did she record the money that was given out? A Some of them -- they taking some and doing that, but not as good as her. She's only the one that can do it. Looking after the names, Indian names too for each one. MR. RUSH: You can this as Exhibit 2. Just for the sake of the record, I provided copies to Mr. Plant of Exhibits 1 and 2. --- OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION 'Ģ-- EXHIBIT No. Q A Q A Q A Q Q A Q A Q A Q A Feast book entitled "1983 Charles Gunanoot" BY MR. RUSH: Qavid, did your grandfather take the name of Xskiigimlaxha? . v Yes. Okay. My grandfather take the Xskiigimlaxha after the Old Xskiigimlaxha got shot, and after my dad's father died on the way towards Bowser. When he died and my father packed him up to Bowser Lake. He tell my father he wants to be buried at that nice looking point up to Bowser Lake. My father did like he said. He buried him at that point which is Graveyard Point now. Where is Graveyard Point? Graveyard, that's Bowser Lake. You told us about Awiijii Creek and Awiijii Mountain, how did Awiijii get its name? That's Stikine. That's awful long story, if I ever told you about that. What does Awiijii mean? Awiijii? Yes. You can walk up the mountain and whistle. It means whistling, does it? Yes. Okay. But for the story. This kid used to make little as a mountain goat. Only cut it quite short, I was going to tell you about the woman about got the baby boy to come to her. This woman telling her mother what to do if I'm dead and the baby is coming after I'm dead. Look after the baby, and very nicely, and when you guys going to move, moving the camp, pack the baby and go up ahead of those people. You got to go ahead with the baby. Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 oa'03r 2-117 GUNANOOT, D., In Chief, Mr. Rush. Q A When you ending the trail, walk a little farther up and they'll build you a camp up there. Do it every time. Don't let them go by and camp ahead of you. The baby's got to go ahead. Finally, he said if you are hungry in the winter, if you're hungry in the winter time you had better -- the baby, he will tell you what to do and you better do like he tell you. They didn't do it. In the winter comes, same thing, baby going ahead and finally they run out of meat. That's all they live on meat, meat. They don't care about fish. Dried meat, dried fish, doing that every time, even those berries. They dried berries, any kind of berry, that made that. Winter time comes and finally they're hungry, run out all the dried meat. The baby talked to the old lady, you better go out teach this man, collect one net at each, anybody who get a net and take me out where the, beaver is. That's what the baby said to the old woman. So the old woman put the little baby on her back and go around the camp, anybody got a net give it to her. Pack all the net and go out. Anywhere beaver born is, they dropped that net where the beaver in, dropped the net in. They go to the other. One net a week. Go home. Before anybody get up in the morning, went out again pulled those nets out, and there's — take the beaver right out. Goes to the other and takes the beaver there Every one of those nets got one beaver on each net. Go down to the camps again. You better go down and pick up your net, you guys know which one's your net. That's the time to go down, pick up the beaver. Still packing the beaver -- I mean the baby. Finally, they're still all gone and they're still camping at that flat of the -- Awiijii Flat they call it now. They're camping and then seen the mountain goats quite a bunch of them up there. Those kids are playing, that little baby still is -- comes to a little bigger. He was happy when he is playing with those kids. They take one of the kids which they call the Nigwoots gwahabasxw — I remember that name — Nigwoots gwahabasxw That's some kind of the father of dried grass. The father of dried grass? Yes. They used to be a baby. This time they got made for what that kid told her. You will be happy. You will be happy. That is what he said, and he said, you will be happy when you eat those mountain goats up there. That baby would get made, start coming back to the camp Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 Car 037 2-118 GUNANOOT, D., In Chief, Mr. Rush. to the mother and the grandmother, crying. Go out and take the chips, chips of wood, and fix it up. Take a knife and take it up. They made a little cut like that and there goes, is going right at the middle of that, that flat little open whooooooooo. There's the mountain goes up, still go up, mountain goes up and there goes the hunter, still following the goats. Finally, those mountain goats march into that big rock, Awiijii Mountain. There goes a kid over there, all those goats went in to there. Finally, they give up. They didn't even know what's wrong with the mountain. It's getting higher and higher. Try to go and the kid comes back with that little piece of wood and fell back to the grandmother crying. Crying. Grandmother trying ask, try and ask what's wrong? What's wrong with you? He wouldn't talk. He wouldn't talk at all. He don't want to tell what he's troubling. v All the trappers -- I mean hunters, all comes back and they — the old woman runs around to those camps and there's the one, one little boy, jumps right out and she point "that's him", telling him he'll be happy when they eat those mountain goats that they shooting up there. That's why he went home. They catch it now, and all those people come back and try to make it. Everything they made. Pans made by the caribou. All designed. The coat all designed. Make it up good. Those arrow and bow, and those tomahawk, they finish that. They give it to him. Finally, he start fine, really fine. When he sees that bow and arrow He takes that bow and arrow and got his target, bang, right at the bulls-eye. Finally, he runs back to the grandmother, okay, teach, okay, you better tell those people to go up and shoot those goats this time. After that, there he goes, he takes that wooden goat he made, whooooooo, no, and he returned and come down this time. Swing it down and there it comes, the mountain goat comes down, and even the mountain comes down. Comes down. Comes down. Didn even get out eyes used to it .... it's still there. But they got goats all right. There it goes. They take that, it goes, gives them little slap on the rump to talk to that kid again. That's the time they knows that had saved their lives for that winter, catching all those beavers, what they eaten. This time, when about those goats, get those goats down again. That is why they call it Anbaxgitwink. Anbaxsitwink, when it starts whooooooo. Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 Car 03,- 2-119 GUNANOOT, D. In Chief, Mr. Rush. Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q how it goes up farther. And now when they want some, they swing it down, like that, and goats come down and the mountain comes down. That's why they call it Awiijii That's finish of the story. The little wood chips that the baby had .... Yes. .... did you say that the baby made those into the shape of a goat? Yes. Does Awiijii mean whistling up the mountain? Yes, that he whistles up. Call them back in the winter time. Who told you this? That means, that is what that called, Gwalaxgyem. Vhat story? Gwalaxgyem. On account of the Stikine people there telling ; the stories they could do, just like some krnd of thing like a real story, means story on the books like that, that's the one. Who told you the Gwalaxgyem story? Eh? Who told you this? Who said this to you? Who said it to me? Yes. Who told you about Awiijii? Awiijii? Yes. That's, I didn't even toll but the Old Skawil used to tell me so many, many times about that. Even my grandfather, my father's father, used to talk about that befor£ he died. Not only them, they been telling the story, all the people around to Galdo'o and they split it up, all the story about this kid was going after the When were you last up on Skawil's territory to trap? Eh? When did you trap up on Skawil's territory the last time? Oh gee, I forgot. Can't even tell you. After my daddy beat out the law, that's nineteen -- gee, I forgot now. Who's using Awiijii territory today? Johnny Wilson. Is he He's the one using that blanket of Skawil. What's his name? Still the same name as Xskiigimlaxha. Are there any white people using the territory? You're shaking your head no? Just a loan going to both of them, is what they said to me. Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-120 GUNANOOT, D. In Chief, Mr. Rush. Q A Q A Q A MR. MR. Are there any white people up at Gwit ts'ilaasxwt? Gwit ts'ilaasxwt, no. Are there white people at T'amsimiloo? No. It's no good for them. I want to ask you about your father, Simon, for a moment. I want to ask you about your dad. After Mcintosh and LeClare died, why did your father go into the bush, and take you and the family? The lawyer said to him that was very good, that's why he beat the case. You shoot the grouse, don't you, and now you wish the grouse flew off and go. Which grouse you going to shoot next. PLANT: Your turn! RUSH: I can't answer that one. Q A Q A Q A OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION ' \ BY MR. RUSH: When he left he took you and the family there into the bush? I was with him. And so was Peter Haimadim, wasn't he? Yes, that's right. Sometimes we camp, later on we don't care about anything at all but we three want to see those any kind of .... we used to make a snare and snare them. Make a nice soup out of them. Why did your father come back? He gave himself up, didn* didn't he? Yes. Scared of the government, that's why. Talking about him. He scared of the law, hang him up, that's why he come in. Okay, go on, hang me up. They take him out July, August, September, October when he was -- when the law take himself up, there, put this on, you go out, you free. The jury tell him, Simon is not guilty for anything. He's got to left. They shoot his house. He dies 13 years ago, what have you guys waiting for. Got nothing to say. That's why the lawyer stands up, Stewart Henderson, that's his lawyer. He shook his hands ... Q Did you .... A Not to be bothered any more. --- OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION BY MR. RUSH: Q After Simon was released from jail and he was found not Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-121 GUNANOOT, D. In Chief Mr. Rush A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Simon have? Axgagoodit. A chief's name? of Geel? His uncle his name on your dad? Geel -- him. no, I mean guilty, he came back to Kispiox? He came back to Hagwilget, come back to his ranch up there about three mile. Is that An lav;? Yes. Did Simon take aname? Did Simon take the name of Geel? What's that? What Gitksan name did That's what they call Axgagoodit? Yes. Did he also take the name Well, he supposing to be. 'Wiiseeks is the one puts 'Wiiseeks put the name on Yes. Now, when he did that, what was the hunting.territory v that your dad got? ''Ģ That was that one, that was, he got that groundhog. He's the one he got first. Was that on Groundhog Mountain? Yes. Where is that? It's up to Groundhog Mountain. I got nothing to say, there's only one Groundhog Mountain around. I can't make another. No. Is it close to any river? Close to the head of the Skeena. Close to the head of the Skeena? That's part of the head of the Skeena. Did your father hunt up there? Oh yes. He used to camp there when I was little, just like new born baby. What is the Gitksan name for Groundhog Mountain? Do you remember? What they call it, Groundhog? Yes. Skaniist Gwiikxw. Skaniist Gwiikxw? Yes. Now, is Groundhog Mountain close to one of the cabins on the Telegraph Creek? That's way over. A way over? Yes. Now, did you travel with your father to other territories, other hunting grounds owned by Geel? Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-122 GUNANOOT, D. In Chief, Mr. Rush. A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Geel? Geel. Yes. Too many. Own land the head of the Skeena. Down to Babine, all over the place. What's the name of the some of Geel's hunting grounds? Well, that's, after my dad died he took Geel -- I mean, what's his name now? Walter Harris. He's Geel now? Yes. He's the one, Geel now. He's the one looking after that. He's supposing to be there but I don't know. I just want to ask you about your dad's -- when your dad was Geel? Yes. What other territories did Geel have then, back in that time? Did he just have Groundhog Mountain? Yes. He did get that Groundhog Mountain and we was only passing there once in a while. , ( Okay. *'ñ† Because he say I get no chance to go there. I've got quite a bunch of trap shot up to Bowser Lake. They only buy those traps but they want those traps, but he died before he move it up to Groundhog. Okay. We were camping through that tunnel. The tunnel right here and the creek, the river goes down. We bought into camp there but that goes up there. There's a tunnel right there where they find that coal. They found coal up by that tunnel, did they? Yes. We used to go, see what they're talking about. Is that up Took it up and threw it in the fire. There it goes. Short time. Nothing left. All burnt up, . Is that up by Klappan? It's not Klappan, over on the other side. It's over on the other side? Yes.That's where those -- where that graveyard is, is Klappan. That's why the Stikine call it Klappan, lot of people being buried there. I see. Even Haimadim's wife was buried there too. Was that Peter Haimadim's wife? Yes. What was her name? Christine. I want to ask you about Oyee now. Oyee? Yes. That's Joshua McLean, you have told us? Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-123 GUNANOOT, D., In Chief, Mr. Rush. A Yes. Q Where is Oyee's hunting territory? A Right up to Milky Lake and Xsigwingyilaa they call it. Q Xsigwingyilaa? A Yes. Q Where is Milky Lake? A That's right ahead, and you go that way and that's Xsigwingyilaa they call. Q What do they call it? A Xsigwingyilaa. Q Oh, Xsigwingyilaa, yes. Right. A And that Neil Sterritt too, and this is Xsigwingyilaa and Neil Sterritt on the other side. Q Neil Sterritt is on the other side? A Yes. The old Man. 'Wiik'aax. Q "Wiik'aax, that's Neil Senior? ' \ A No, the old man. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION BY MR. RUSH: Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Somebody Who was Oyee before Joshua McLean? My brother, Fred. Fred. Died a long time ago. Who was Oyee before him? Before? Before Fred? Before Fred, that was the one shot at Bear Lake. shot him. Been drinking uuk. Drinking what? Home-made beer. They call it uuk. Uuk. Must have been during the prohibition. Samuel Brown. Yes. That was Oyee. Is Milky Lake, is that close to Bear Lake? Not far. It's only one, you go down in it. Island Lake right there and there's the creek comes down. What's the name of That's Xsa'andososxw, where they used to get those red -- what they call it? Red clay. Clay? Yes, red. Really red. It's some of the old woman's long time ago. They used to fix it up, mix it up with the mountain goat. They fixing up the mountain goat j Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 :fT-Q3.- 2-124 GUNANOOT, D., In Chief, Mr. Rush. Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A fat, nice and white, and mix this with that clay. They use it for For colour for the cheeks? Yes. Like rouge? Yes. Can you tell us the boundaries of Oyee's territory? That's quite a way. Straight down. There's only one creek comes down there and that was another, Xsigwingyilaa they call it. That belongs to -- they all died anyway -- I don't know who owns that. Below that is, belongs to somebody else. That was still Oyee looking after this, and Xsu'wiiaks still belongs, and they call that mountain there Gwiiyoo, where they used to shooting bunch of caribous. They call it Gwiiyoo? Yes. And that, the other one there, the steep side. \ The mountain was like that but there it goes, like that. Right on the other side, like that, that's why they call it 'Niihahlagyoot. What's that again? 'Niihahlaagyoot. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION BY MR. RUSH: Q A Q Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Have you finished describing Oyee's boundary? That's right. Approximately. Who has the boundary to the south of Oyee? Who has the hunting ground south of him? That was Jack Wright's father but he died long time. It's only one, two of them alive. Thomas Wright and Edward Wright, still alive. That's their father own that place you're talking about. Was he a simooget? Which one? Jack Wright's father? Yes. What was his name? I forget again. I remember Welix, that's the one. No, I forget that. Okay. That's all I remember. Another out there, man's name, Basaxxw. Second chief of his. What's old man's name? Basaxxw. They used to call him Basaxxw shot. Shoots any kind of thing like that. Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-125 GUNANOOT, D. In Chief, Mr. Rush. Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Let me did Haiwas, did he have territory up by Bear Lake? Haiwas? It used to be. It used to be but my mother finished his funeral when the Haiwas died, that's my mother's. Supposing to be my grandfather's Haiwas which own that mountain Tsil Tsila but that Charlie, Bear Lake Charlie supposing to be there, got that place, poor, doesn't have anything to spread around that's what she should do, and he would own that land, Tsil Tsila, but he didn't so my mother finishes on father's funeral and paying all the expenses. That's why the chief give it to my mother. Was Haiwas related to Tom Luulak? Yes. How were they related? Some kind of some uncle of his. Uncle? ' \ thing. is same same? Luulak, that's another. That's Haiwas. Yes. Melulek Melulek's the Yes. And Tom Is Tom Luulak Big chief is Melulek. Okay. I don't know him but he is, Tom Luulak is Melulek what they call it maybe. I don't know. I know it's regular one, is Melulek. I think they got two again as Tom Luulak. Luulak they call it. Is Tom Luulak, is he related to Sam Luulak? Oh yes. He's with Kathleen. Her name was Kathleen. What's Kathleen's name? Kathleen? That was -- she used to be Melulek but after he moved down here, and that William Jeffrey's wife takes that Melulek but he move it down to the coast. Didn't even stay. So I don't know. He's not very nice that way for the family. Is Kathleen, her last name is Jackson, is it? Yes. Is she related to Sam Luulak? Kathleen Jackson? Yes. How are they related? Where? How is Kathleen related to Sam Luulak? Well, he brought her to Kiscjagas. I think it Kathleen's uncle. I think. That's what it is. I just wanted to ask you, you told us when we taking the evidence today that Haiwas was your mother's father? Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 was started car 037 2-12B GUNANOOT, D., In Chief, Mr. Rush. Q A A That's right. Q What was his English name? A Which one? Q Haiwas. A Thomas. Q Thomas? A McLean. Q McLean? A Yes. Short little old man. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION THE WITNESS: That's what they call Two Foot Lou. MR. RUSH: Two Foot Lou. Q Now, when did Thomas McLean get the name of Haiwas? A Which one? Q When did Thomas McLean get the name Haiwas? A I don't know. My mother going to take the name and the book put that name on Thomas McLean. That's why my mothe get that Tsil Tsila at that time. Q What A Before my -- they call it Amnagwootxw. Q What do they call Amnagwootxw? A Amnagwootxw that means it's given to my mother, finished all those expenses, like I did to Alex the same thing. Amnagwootxw. Okay. That's Amnagwootxw. When my mother died, before he died, he knows he's getting shorter, last trip to Tsil Tsila. We camp across and he show to us, like what this mountain that's belongs to me, when I'm died, you guys, you don't have to take her any more. But I'm still alive you guys go and traps as much as you can right now. All open to you. I own this, only given to me on account of I finished my father's funeral. Everything. That's why I get that. Q What was the name of the mountain? A Tsil Tsila. Q Tsil Tsila? A Yes. Q Again in Gitksan? A That's what they call it, Tsil Tsila? Q You mentioned Bear Lake Charlie? A Well, supposing to be there. Supposing to be there when that old man died. Q What old man? A My grandfather. But he has not showed up. When we was He That's Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-127 GUNANOOT, D. In Chief, Mr. Rush. Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A camping there, we was asking, we was going to move away, why don't you move down? You heard your uncle died, why don't you come down? What did he say, just about cried, and my mother was telling him, he shouldn't say anything about. You didn't even show up so I'll spend quite a lot of money for your uncle. You didn't even showed up. Show up for Now you want to be owner of this, and this was given to me. He was just crying. What didn't he show up for? He should have showed up for, to let the chiefs see that was to finish that funeral and things like that. Whose funeral? My mother's father. Now was Bear Lake Charlie related to Haiwas? Yes. : , Do you know how? I think he was going up there. He didn't even come down to Kiscjacjas, where I was, where his uncle live. He wants to get that mountain back for nothing. That's why my mother was mad at him. David, I want to ask you now about the territory of another one of your relatives, Peter Haimadim? Haimadim. Where was his hunting territory? They call it .... I remember that .... I remember but I still forget it again. Klacjoohla. Again? Klagpohla. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION THE WITNESS: Maybe that's main thing there. Around there Klacjoohla, it's hardly nothing around there. It's nothing but purple mostly what they got around there. It's only once in a while you can see those jack pines up there. MR. RUSH: Say the THE WITNESS: That's why they call it Klagpohla. That's Stikine words. It's given to, what's the time, when that was given to my uncle, Peter. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION BY MR. RUSH: Q Where is Klacjoohla? Where's it located? A Located? Q Where's it hear? Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 caro3r 2-128 GUNANOOT, D. In Chief Mr. Rush A Q A Q A Q A Q Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A That was quite a way. There's Thutade and there's Klagoohla way up. That's what they call that lake there. It's close to Thutade though? Yes. Close to Klagoohla. Now, did Peter Haimadim have any other territory? No. That's only one. Now, does 'Niikyap have rights to use Haimadim territory? 'Niikyap got too much. Can 'Niikyap -- can you go -- can 'Niikyap use Haimadim's territory? Sure they can. They would not like. Xsigwingyilaa, even Xsigwingyilaa, same thing. Can anyone who is not a member of 'Niikyap's house use the territory? Anyone from 'Niikyap's house can go up there. But if they're not from 'Niikyap's house? No, not that. One of the Sampsons is the one that uses Haimadim now. He's the one that go up there. Can white people go up and use it? Way up maybe. I don't know. If the white people do that, they can take his traps and give it to the game warden, and what he's going to do? Send to jail, and no more trapping for him. There's line fish right here, there's the line of fish right here. Now, I drift my net, go right over there. Crossing their boundary. They'll pick up my net and my boat, take it down to my manager, pick him up, no more fishing. I lose net, I lose the boat, I lose all the money I make. That's the same as the trapline. Do you know when the first white -- were you ever told when the first white man came into Bear Lake? Yes. Yes. That's the first 'Niikyap, his people, when the people from Kisgagas went up to Bear Lake, and there's white people there. Well, they find that Hudson Bay was there and out in to the yard, big high fence around, sharp on the end. Sharp on the end? Yes, nobody can go over. And there's that corner of the house, like that, and there's right at the corner, and concrete, and there's the corner there, and there's guard there. Old man. When the people from Kisaagas get back to Kisgagas, they tell what they see about this. And Melulek get a nice name for that, for that fence, and he's got a name for it, Tsimyes. They made it -- they use it as a big chief, Tsimyes. Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 car 037 2-129 GUNANOOT, D., In Chief, Mr. Rush. Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q What did that mean? It means nobody can touch anything what is Tsimyes. That's the same, 'Niikyap's brother for that. Everything, really the house which I still remember but I got too much to remember. You've got a lot to remember. Yes. David, when you told us about the battle or fight between the people of Kisgagas and the Gitanmaas at Bear Lake -- no, at Old Landing? Oh yes. Where did the Gitanmaas people come from? What people do you say? The Gitanmaas, was that the name? Yes, Gitanmaas. Where did they come from? That's their own place. They're still the^e now. What They never bothered them no more. Who are they related to? I didn't even know that. Are they related to the Babine people? Didn't know that. I think that's all mixed up now, I think. That's Babine and that, what you call them. Old Landing. I don't know what they call that lake, for their language, but that's all I know is about that, what they call those people right there, that was Gitanmaas people. Maybe that's what they call that.i Okay. " ] Lake or Gitanmaas. You told us that the Kiscjacjas people had canoes? Yes. They only using raft going over. It was a raft, was it? Yes, and they run away with that canoes, and the rest of them making holes on the bottom. Okay. At camp, everybody jumps right in and battle it out and they all drowned outside. Okay. That's how they get killed and they didn't even use those arrows to kill those people, they drowned them. They pulled those canoes, which would be nine, come around. They don't need those arrows no more so they shooting in to that rock which they call Satsiis. What kind of canoes were the holes pushed in to? Well, they said it was a bark. A bark canoe? Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-130 GUNANOOT, D. In Chief Mr. Rush A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A their land hundred. For, like me That's not long houses into Kisgagas. He don Yes. I don't know what kind of bark they use. It's easy to cut it. David, did anybody from 'Niikyap's house sell or give their land to the white people? To the white people, when? Anywhere? Did 'Niikyap give his land away to the white people? You're shaking your head no? No. I remember what I call my house. Tsimganootsenex. Your house? Yes, that's 'Niikyap's house, Tsimganootsenex. How many years has 'Niikyap owned Tsimganootsenex? Long, long time. You know, I started about that ... they were just like in a dream. I don't know how many to count that about that big raft, when they moves down and moved t like that Gwit ts'ilasxwt on account of the woman was, just about killed them all up there, and 'Niikyap don't like that, so reason why he moved, and they moved into Kisgagas. That's the time they seen that big meadows, they call it Gwinwijix. Yes. And that Gwinwijix, that's where that bunch of groundhogs ... they're going down besides that, and there's T'amsimiloo, right there. Yes. Still keep following and going in and find trail from Kisgagas. Going down to that, they call it canyon -- Canyon Creek too, but it was different than up above Kisgagas, there's another canyon. Okay. You think that happened some time after -- shortly after the big raft? Yes. What is the big raft? Big raft? Yes. That's what I told you before, just that's what they are. Wind there. the dream for them, when they're just they know they was on the raft. They like in the dream. It seems to be in like awaking and all dream, they that big raft s Gitangasx, they going that's all all right. all dream was being tied together. When was crashed up alongside the river, that where that happened.. They call it Gitangasx. What are to do? They can't do anything about it, but they do, eating raw fish. Eating raw fish That's what they say. Finally, they all it Sagaitluugap was being there too and 'Naxteext, that's from 'Niikyap's house, was there and Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-131 GUNANOOT, D., In Chief Mr. Rush Q A I forget who is the other two. And that's their own loving country, that Nagun. They used to going around going up, top of the mountains, any place, where they go. They used to talk about roasting groundhog skin there, groundhog, roast them against the fire. That's all they doing, making a happy time. But come down, come down to Gitangasx, there goes Nagun, was missing, lost. They didn't know where they go. That's what they say. And there is Sagaitluugap, Nagun's mother, crying, back and forth. She asked about 'Naxteext and She asked about what? She asked those two cousins. "No, I don't know, we don't know, lost, we can't find them". The other time and there comes Sagaitluugap with his ganwelix, gadwelix they call it. They make up some kind of thing, it's like that .... That's enough to pack, and it's made to put huxs on it, to pack anything you eat and what you can cover up yourself. There goes , lady cried, "There comes those two again". "Hey, Sagaitluugap, gala, a'xoon t'axiixoon hahlenisxa". That means, "Come over and have some fish". Seems to be making more fun of the old lady. They still keep on going. They ate the fish all right. Take off. Go up, they watch. I don't know. They watch. Maybe some of them followed her out and she fixing up the camp, lot of wood. And they followed again, there's another camp, still the same thing, lot of wood, lot of something. And that old woman was lost, gone, and gone for a long time. Finally, that old woman get out of the mountain and there's the smoke. There's the camp way down, seen the smoke, kind of an area like a flat piece. Now that's as far as she go. She knows that's as far as she goes, taking all those scrubby wood, scrubby pieces up on top of the mountain and throw them right out. Pile them up. Still keep on doing that pile. Piled them right up, quite a bunch of them. When he's ready to go, just put the fire right under them, started out nice. Really big fire all right. Go down the trail, see his own trail and follows his own trail back, and that camp she made a fire there too. There he comes. The people who running after her, they get and they find that, and they wants to watch but that means they still keep going and there's 'Niikyap right there. Seen that ... Sagaitluugap was coming back all right. Didn't even stop, passed those things. 'Niikyap said, "Look, that Sagaitluugap catch what she want". Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 Coro3r 2-132 GUNANOOT, D. In Chief Mr. Rush She already showed herself something up there and that's why you see the people will come down here to clean us out. To clean us out right there. So, come on, better tell everybody to come over. And they cooking some fish, anything what they can cook, and they call everybody and they did come in all right. But they didn't even know what's wrong with 'Niikyap. All they said to her, talk it over. After 'Niikyap kept taking all his family out. After they take out and there goes the people, what is left at that Gitangasx, talk about, "Oh, that old man is going crazy, ha-ha-ha", so they said to 'Niikyap take it out. They get to above always crossing that . there. They used to crossed it and catch side and push it up, way up, never get some more across, to go Now go to hook any Galdo'o and there's a big log, ... log both sides of the canyon get that, a big piece of log. They it the other side, and catch this push it up until they hang it up, goes. When 'Niikyap finds that, fix that, wood, large size. Put up railing to go down to Galdo'o. down through the canyon, no place for him salmon ... any kind of fish in those days. Haven't found anything around the shore so still keep on going. Go back again and cross that big log again. Go down right -- at the left side go down. They find that which they call it a big spring, big spring. I don't know how big is that creek. It was big creek all right. Then there was seen a lot of fish jaws hanging up on the land and 'Niikyap talking about, that's what they're talking about, Xsa'agasxw, this canyon down there. "Well, we don't need to go down", so they're going up, and that's the time they come out where that long(?) meadow you've been asking me about, about that Gwinwijix, and that big meadow full of groundhog. When they seen that, they tell the people, his own people who was with him, "When we get to Kisgagas , don't any one of you don't mention about this groundhog for the people because they look for it too. Let's do something about it later. We'll come back here and camp here sometime." So they did too. Right up there. This time they seen the groundhog and come down, come down and there's the lake. They didn't even know anything about it, about T'imgano'ohlit. It's called T'imgano'ohlit, just over .... They didn't even stop and go down to Kisgagas, look for again, look for a place to fish for anything, fix up a trap, a fish trap. Not even for hooking fish, nothing. Or netting. Nothing at all. Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-133 GUNANOOT, D. In Chief Mr. Rush Q David, we're going to have to stop here for just a minute while they change the tape. A Yes. Q Can you just pause while he fixes the tape? A Go ahead. --- OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION BY MR. RUSH: Q David, Gwi t ts A Yes. Q Okay. want to A Yes. I Q This is A When he Q You're going to take us to Gwit ts'ilasxwt? A That's where I'm at now. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION BY MR. RUSH:_ would you go back and finish the story about ilasxwt? We've re-started the tape again, David. Do you just finish that story? forget where I was. when 'Niikyap got to Kisgagas? get back to Kisgagas. When he steps down to Kisgagas, he looked into the canyon. I know that Kisgagas myself, because I've been there. There's only one fish trap there and that was his own family, Ralph's family. That was 'Wiiseeks. He's the one that get that fish trap at Kisgagas. But they did put it up, but not enough, not enough. And the old man tell his wife to fix up his pack. There goes 'Niikyap. He's got enough to pack, started up, get a lunch down there. You know how the rough water kind of sounds like a canyon. He's going down, no, it's no good. Still keep going like that, he having a more nice time, then go down again. Still keep on doing that. I used to think about that. It was awful tough for the old man above that Kisgagas, up and down through the canyon. Finally he stuck. Haven't got any place to go now. The canyon, just like that, so he just go down there. Finally, he seen that Kisgagas river, which they call it Xsugwinlik'i'insxw, they call that river. The old people. That's the regular name, Xsugwinlik'i'iinsxw, where the grizzly hangs around. That's why they call it Xsugwinlik'i'insxw. Get down there, and there's the river right there, there's the rock right there, and there's another one right there, and there's another one right there. There's a big flat rock right there. Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 Car 037 2-134 GUNANOOT, D. In Chief Mr. Rush and they couldn't cross that Xsugwit ts'ilaasxwt. They haven't got that name that time. They sit down, take their time, take it easy. Eating something what he could eat. Take it easy, and watching between those rocks. There goes the fish, jump there, go over there. Short time, there goes another one, and there goes another one, and there goes another one, and there's a hole between another two rocks. I got two, what do I want, I don't need any more. So just take anything what he's got, cache it up, and take off and go back. Get into Kisgagas. No trail up there at all but he's got a lot of young people with him. They don't care about that. They just change ... cutting those trails. Camping some other place. On and on, I don't know how many days they taking. They get to that Xsugwit ts'ilaasxwt. When they get up there, the old man didn't even waste anything. He only cutting all those things what they could use for the fish traps, what that he knows. Still keep on moving and the young people getting ready for the big good size pole, what they're going to use to get that fish trap out. Talking about the old man, just about sleeping, old man like that. Still keep on, they're so tired, always, can't hardly sleep at all. Trying to finish. Finally they finish it. "Finished it", he said, "Oh, I forgot this one. I got to go out and get it. There goes another special trip". Maybe sometimes it takes him a day to find another piece he was looking for that fish trap. Finally ready, finish it all, and they push it down and there comes the big fish, coming up this way, and there it goes again. Get stuck, the fish hit this and got no place to go, jump, landed right into where they dried up, there's somebody right in there. Threw them right into another place on, way over where they'll be dead. They can't jump out of that. In short time it's really filled up, short time, about two days, they really fill up what they made for smokehouse. They dried fish, and still came out. Finally the old man talk about, "We got nothing to do if we could get anybody to help us, it would be all right for us if we take some people who need fish at Kisgagas". So the old man tell those nephews, I don't know how many he send into Kisgagas, tell them "You better go down to Kisgagas. Don't let them cook. You guys do the cooking, do the cooking and call those people around there. When you're all sitting down eating, just about finished, one of you stand up and tell them: anybody want some Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 Cf>r03r 2-135 GUNANOOT, D. In Chief Mr. Rush fish? We come down here to look for you guys to help, to help us. We got no place for fish. We've got too much fish up there. If you want to come with us, put up your hand. There goes this one. Short time, there goes another one putting up their hand too. There goes another putting up their hand. Three. I don't know how many been doing that. Finally, the next day, all marching up. When they get to Gwit ts'ilaasxwt, that's the time they're all busy. That is all they using is those bark of the trees to cover the top of the smokehouse. Blue flies can't get into the fish. But still it all fill up with fish. Quite a lot of people around there. Finally, they starting making their cache. They cache those. They're making the cache into the ground in those days, into the ground. I don't know how it all decorated but fix it up nice. Dried fish didn't spoil in there. Finally what they put in there still the same thing. As long as little too much air in it, it always comes to mouldy. They knows that, that's why they really keep clean. They still keep it, go back, and I don't know how long but they go to ... . That is what his name. He haven't got no name at all. 'Niikyap was talking about that little lake, maybe it's a nice place to build a trap for trout. If we catch trout there it would be very nice but that is funny -- that's a funny little lake. Sometimes it's all marsh on top of that lake. Seems to be no lake and there goes that man, still keep. Finally they finish it. Finished his trap. It's only hanging down like that ... but they can't help, they already knows that was that race -- that rake -- that little lake can race up so fast, so they scared of it. That's where they camp, there's Anmootixs, still no name yet. They got to get that fish trap, trout trap. That's all they use. Good for trout. They pack that -- pack his trout down and put it down where you're going to get the trout. Still keep doing Finally, next morning, the man goes down to look at his fish trap. He take that thing, he pull it out and there, there he goes. That what they call T'imgano'ohlit .... they build it right into ... That fellow is just taking that fish trap up and dump that fish out. The water comes up, right behind, and now that's the time the man get his name. The water, the water was going, "Saigyuksxwn axboo'o tk'ihlxw". "Axboo'o scared the children", this is what that water says. Well, that's the time he get the name Axboo'o. Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-136 GUNANOOT, D. In Chief Mr. Rush Q Can we stop here, David? A . Yes. Q Maybe we should stop for the day. It's 4.15 now and it's perhaps time that we take a break and start again tomorrow at 9.30. Would that be all right for you? A Yes. In the morning? Q Yes. A Maybe I could stand it! OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION MR. RUSH: Let's stop for the day. Thank you, David. --- PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4.20 p.m. TO BE RESUMED 9.30 a.m. WEDNESDAY, 14 MAY, 1986 I hereby certify the foregoing to be a true and accurate transcript! of the proceedings herein, to the best of my skill and ability. VH-Aug.14/86 AVD-Jan.10/87 Veronica Harper (Ms. Official Court Reporter B.C.S.R.A. #263 Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 Car 03; 2-137 GUNANOOT, D. In Chief, Mr. Rush. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 DAVID GUNANOOT, a witness called on behalf of the Plaintiffs, previously affirmed, testifies as follows: RALPH MICHELL, Gitksan Interpreter, previously affirmed. UPON COMMENCING AT 9.45 a.m., Wednesday, 14 May, 1986 MR. THE MR. MR. MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. RUSH: We'll start our commission again, David. WITNESS: Okay. RUSH: It's May 14th today. We have another lawyer, who is representing the Attorney General of Canada, and he is going to introduce himself. IRVING: My name is John Irving. I'm with the law firm of Macaulay, McColl and we are aacting for the Attorney General of Canada. RUSH: Thank you. I have a few more questions of you today, David, and then I am going to ask that you answer the questions of Mr. Plant. WITNESS: What's that? RUSH: I have some questions for you. WITNESS: Oh yes. RUSH: Then I am going to ask Mr. Plant here if he has any questions for you. WITNESS: Yes. RUSH: I think he'll have a few. EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH (continued) Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Do you remember yesterday we were talking about the battle between the Kisgagas and the Gitamaas people? The Gitamaas people, do you remember you told us that? Yes. What is the meaning of Gitamaas? What does that mean in English, do you know? I don't know. That's not my language. That's not your language? No. Do you know what language that is? I don't know. Those people at that lake, same as the Babine people. They speaking the same language. Same language as the Babine people? Yes, they speak the same language. Now, what were the Kisgagas people doing up there? I don't know. As far as I know, that was they taking a Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 ;oto3.- 2-138 GUNANOOT, D., In Chief, Mr. Rush. Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q trip there until they get at the corner, at the lake, on the right side, that's what they say. That's where they make those -- makes those rafts, right across, ahead of the lake. Yes. Fish trap in the night time, until they get behind that 'Ģhump at Satsiis. Say it again? Satsiis. There's little pass behind that place where they're going over. They find the people, any land, and they store their canoe there, and they cutting the holes in the bottom of some of them, and they left off again. After that, they go back and they kill those people,and the rest of them try to run out and they jump right in the canoe. They paddle out, so far out, they're sinking on account of the hole on it. They keep on doing it. In fact, get nothing. ,The people get the canoes, which they been hiding, jump in, going back up to it, until it all filled up and they got no use for them anymore after they clean up those people. Every time they take those arrows and shoot into that rock. That was the rock you told us about yesterday? Exactly the same. Now, what lake was it where those Gitamaas people drowned? What was the name of that lake? Takla Lake. That's what they call. I don't know what they call it for their own langugage. Now, David, the Gitamaas people, were they living in a village? They got their own village. Was the village -- was it above ground or was it under ground? No. Alongside of the lake. Now, you were saying that -- yesterday I think you mentioned Driftwood Creek; do you know Driftwood Creek up by Bear Lake? Yes. Where is that? Driftwood is, came from where it goes to Bear Lake and going right down and goes into -- what they call that lake? Goes into another lake, does it? Still the same lake. Yes. Where Satsiis .... Is that Takla Lake? Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 Car 037 2-139 GUNANOOT, D. In Chief, Mr. Rush. A Yes, Takla Lake. That's where that Driftwood runs in to, ahead of it. Q Is Driftwood Creek, is that part of Oyee's territory? A That's right. What's they call that? Gee, It's too many. That's Driftwood going down and Xsigwingyilaa. Q What's that name again? A Xsigwingyilaa, which they call that, and this is the Driftwood, and there's that mountain I was telling you about that. Q What was the name of that mountain, do you know? A I told you yesterday. Q Okay. A That was Tsil Tsila. Q Now, you were telling us yesterday that you also trapped I think for a while with Black Hat Tom? A That's way up too. ' Q Where's that? Where did you trap with him? A That's where, up to, they call it big river, Xsu'wiiaks. Q How long did you do that with him? A Some times about six months I think. Yes, about six months. That's quite a few of us going down to the Driftwood, even my father and my mother, and my sisters and brothers, going until we get out of that lake and landed up to the old landing, going right over that mountain and going down to Babine. Q How old were you when you did that? A Eh? Q How old were you? A I don't know. I was still young but I got something to remember. Anything that time I was very good at that, remembering everything. So, two-three years ago I start hollering out here. His name was was Leon from Telkwa Creek, and that's when — I'm not crazy about that man, I don't know why. Standing in front of the tent, I see him coming there and I go, just about flying up in the air. I get up to his neck ... (inaudible) everything what they told me, just like last year. You remember too last year, still remember? Q Your memory's good today too? A I think so but I don't think not very much today. Q I am just going to pause here, David, I think I might be finished my questions. A Yes. Q I'm going to wait a minute and then maybe ask Mr. Plant here if he has some questions, okay. Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-140 GUNANOOT, D. Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant A Yes. MR. RUSH: So we'll stop for a minute. —- OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION MR. RUSH: David, I've finished my questions. I've concluded my direct examination and now Mr. Plant may have some questions for you. THE WITNESS: Yes. MR. RUSH: Thank you. MR. PLANT: David, I'm sure you know, I'm the government lawyer and I have some questions. Some of them will be somewhat like the questions Stuart had but I have some other questions too. I hope I won't take very long. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT: Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Your father was Simon Gunanoot? That's right. If you have any trouble hearing me, you let me know, okay? Yes. Your father was a Fireweed? Yes. He was from the Fireweed clan? Yes. His father was Charlie Nagan? Yes. What clan was he? Supposing to be Frog. Used to be. He was a Frog? Yes. Charlie's brother was Daniel Skawil, is that right? That's right, he was Daniel Skawil. What clan was Daniel Skawil? The same. He was also a Frog? Yes. Daniel Skawil was Xskiigimlaxha? After my grandfather died? Did he take the name from Charlie Nagun? Yes. And Charlie Nagun when he was alive he was Xskiigimlaxha? Xskiigimlaxha, well, that thing you heard me talking about yesterday, how he started at that time, when that Kispiox person making the holes for beaver houses? Yes. Xskiighimlaxha was killed there. Stikine killed that Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-141 GUNANOOT, D. Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Okay. Is 'Niikyap a big chief? Xskiigimlaxha, came from Galdo'o. You told tHat story yesterday? Yes. Yes? Well, it is still the same thing what it is. Finally, my father, my grandfather take the name Xskiigimlaxha after those Stikine made a mistake and killed that Xskiigimlaxha from Galdo'o. Later, Daniel Skawil took the name? Yes, after my grandfather died. Was Daniel Skawil alive when you were born? When I was born? Yes. Skawil? Yes, Daniel Skawil. I was trapping with him. He was very old. So you knew him very well? Yes. Xskiigimlaxha is a chief? A simooget? That's right. Was he a big chief? Yes, chief for the family. David, are some chiefs more important than others? Are there some chiefs that are bigger chiefs than other chiefs? I don't understand. You don't understand? What's that? Is 'Niikyap? Oh yes. He's That's an old What? 'Niikyap is an old name? Yes. Does Xskiigimlaxha have a house? That's right, Xskiigimlaxha, yes, Who has the name Xskiigimlaxha today? Or does anyone? Johnny Wilson. His name is Johnny Wilson, The taxi man around town. He's the taxi man in Hazelton? Yes. Do you remember when Johnny Wilson took the name? Yes, I don't know how long ago, I forget. I was around town then he take the name all right. Was it a few years ago or a very long time ago? Not long time ago. It was about, gee, four years ago, I think. Can't lie. He do good all right. Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 an old chief, name, is it? he has got a house. car 03: 2-142 GUNANOOT, D. Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A So now does Johnny Wilson have the same territory that Daniel Skawil had? He got it, he took the name. That's right. Who was Xskiigimlaxha before Johnny Wilson? That's Dan Skawil. It was Daniel? Yes. Was there a time when no-one had the name Xskiigimlaxha? Which one? After Daniel died, did someone take the name Xskiigimlaxha right away? No. there was a time before Johnny Wilson got the name? No, nobody. Nobody had it? Yes, until Johnny Wilson get it. David, you're a Wolf Clan member? Yes. 'Niikyap is a Wolf? Yes. What clan was your mother? What's that? Your mother, Sara Gunananoot? Just the same as me. She was also a Wolf? Yes. Can't change. I don't know very much about the ways of your people and that's why my questions are silly. Well Was your" mother a chief? Oh yes. So many times. What was her name again? Her chief's name? What do you say? What was her Gitksan name? Gitksan name, it was 'Niit'amlaxwak. Is that a chief's name? And other one, that was Gamgageex. Is that a chief's name? That's all for -- that's all the biggest name she got. That was the biggest name she got? Yes. What house does that name belong to? Still the same. the same house? Yes. What house is that? 'Niikyap's house. Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-143 GUNANOOT, D. Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant Q David, did you have a brother named Fred? A Fred? Q Yes. A Yes. Q He's not alive any more, he died? A He died long time ago. Q Was he a chief? A Yes. Q Was he a chief in the House of 'Niikyap? A Yes. That was, still in 'Niikyap's house. Still gets name right in there. Oyee. Q He was Oyee? A Oyee. Yes. That's easy to spell, Oyee. Q Beg your pardon? A That's easy to spell, Oyee. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION Still in it. BY MR. PLANT: Q A Q Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Q A Who has the name Oyee now? Who has that name now? Joshua McLean. Oh yes, Joshua McLean. Oyee has territory, doesn't he? That's right. Does Joshua McLean use his territory? Yes, he's getting closer to now. Getting closer to get on there. Takes a little time for them to know some place, to the other people, but I told him again, between those two places, he's getting very close to that. Going right over to that, they call it Rice Lake, start going up to Belker Lake. Belker Lake? Milky Lake. Milky Lake. Got it because it looks like milk, it, but the river is Xsigwingyilaa, of that lake. Has Joshua been on the territory? that's why they call that's come out He's very close. I believe they get there next time. They was going up, was going to get there all right but they made a mistake, still keep on following that creek that came from there, until they get to the truth. The canyon. Canyon Creek? Yes. And I showed him how it is, there's the canyon right here, and there's alongside the river there, kind of flattened out. I used to get up there and going Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 Zar 037 2-144 GUNANOOT, D. Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A I told him how to do try. right up there, just like nothing. Joshua tried to go there and he didn't go quite the right way? Yes. He stuck for that canyon it and he said next time he'll He'll try again to get there? He'll get there. Is he going to go this year? They can travel that place, all over the place with his skidoo. Nice country for the skidoo. What is Joshua going to do on the territory when he gets there? Trapping. Trapping? Yes. That's the main thing? Lot of beavers around there. Who's trapping there now? Is someone trapping there now? One of the fellow from Bear Lake, used to going over there, he said to me. He told me about it, nobody around there. Supposed to be the son of one of my first cousins so I let her use -- let him to go there any time but don't go too much about that. I said, because I got a man to go on to look after that trapline. I already got his name on .... But you let someone from Bear Lake use the territory? Yes. For a while? He used it, he said. He's not scared of me to tell me about it. He's the son of one of my own niece. Do you know his name? I forget his name. He told me his name but he didn't last long around there. That's those people from that Takla Lake who has been claiming that we overlap them but I talked to them about it. I said, I can't even change myself. Any place where my grandfather used to be, I follow that place in again. Belonged to him so I can't do anything about it. What's he going to say? Did the people from Takla Lake so they have a claim to that territory too? Yes. They trying, trying to get on there but I stop it again. (inaudible). go down to Driftwood. Did the Takla Lake people, did they tell you they had been trapping on the territory? No. They know now anyway. They can't bother. Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 zar037 2-145 GUNANOOT, D. Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant Q They can't what? A They can't bother anything about that. Oyee's territory. It's way different country. Whoever goes on to Takla and whoever goes down to Skeena Q It's where the A Can't say nothing any more. Q I see. Is Joshua McLean part of your family? A That's right. That's one of my -- my mother was being married first but she used that Joshua's mother --oh, I mean, Maria's father, was John Riel. That's the one, he died. After that they been together with my father and there they go. Q Where does Joshua fit in all of that? A Well, that's the one I was telling you, that was John Riel's daughter is Maria. That's where Joshua came from. Q Is Maria Joshua's mother? A Yes, Maria. Q Is that Joshua's mother? A Yes. Q I see. You also had a brother Alex? A Yes. Q Is Alex dead also? A Eh? Q Is Alex dead also? A Yes, he died. Q Was Alex a chief? A Yes, Chief Muut. Q Did you say he was the head chief Muut or MR. RUSH: He was Chief Muut. THE WITNESS: Been sitting alongside of me. BY MR. PLANT: Q A Q A Q A He sat beside you? Yes. Was Muut a chief from Kisgagas? That's right. That's my old grandfather picked him up because he's smart kid. So he picked him up to be alongside of himas chief too, and he gave him the name as Muut, as to be a chief alongside of him. Who has the name Muut today? Still keep it. I should have taken it, I don't know what holds me back. The time when I finished that feast and everything, I should have take that name and put it on alongside of me again. I would have been getting something for that, for somebody's feast but I didn't. Well, this is the same as Charlie, my brother, I finished him again and still same thing, I didn't even bother Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 car 03." 2-146 GUNANOOT, Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant D. Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A about those two names. Well, they still on me right now. So you're holding the name now? Eh? Do you have the name now? I got to look after those names. You haven't given that name to anybody? No. Can't do anything about it. Does Muut have territory? Oh yes. Yes. Is it the same territory as 'Niikyap? No. Where's Muut's territory? It's way up to Skeena River. Way up the Skeena River, very close to Simon Morrison's territory.. Waiget, that's his chief name. Simon Morrison's chief's name is? Waiget. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION THE WITNESS: Elsie Morrison get that name now as Waiget. Kispiox. BY MR. PLANT: Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Elsie Morrison? Yes. How far up the Skeena is Muut's territory? Past Galdo'o? That's where -- way on the other side of Slamgiist, they call it, that creek. That's Simon Morrison and there's Muut. They used to go together and spent trapping time around with them, helping the others. They used to trap together? Oh yes. Very close. Just the same line. And then Across that, on the other side, that was one of my uncle again got territory there, that's Johnny Morrison. The creek, used to call it Maxlislagiibilit. Could you say that name again? Maxlislagiibilit. Is there an English name for that creek? That's what they call that creek. Maxlislagiibilit. That's Johnny Morrison's trapline. Is that the English name for it? Yes. That's Xstuutxwmlaxha. That's Johnny Morrison's chief name, Xstuutxwmlaxha. Too many in the head. Yes, too many for me. Xstuutxwmlaxha, he sits at the Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 car 03." 2-147 GUNANOOT, D. Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A feast table with you, doesn't he? Yes. Yes? Yes. You had a brother, Charlie, also, didn't you? Which one? You had a brother Charlie? Charlie, yes. Is he still alive? No, he died some time. Did he have a Gitksan name? He died right -- year after Alex died. Did he have a Gitksan name? Gitksan name? What was his chief's name? I forgot. He's got his name already. No, I forgot. He didn't get that --he didn't get that name right in there but he got it up to — what they call that lake? I forget. Not Babine. It's close to the -- no, I forget. Was he a chief? No. He's not a chief. He's only got, what they call some kind of princess like. Some kind of prince? Yes. That's before they get a big name. So he never had a big name? No. Did he have territory? No. Just the same as in that Oyee. They can get together on that land, if they still alive. He could hunt and trap on Oyee's territory? Yes. Did you have a brother named Philip? Philip? Yes. He died long time ago. Do you remember Car accident. Do you remember how long ago that was? No. I forget. I know I was quite ready to -- we already load that big plane, that two-ton plane. They call that Stranair. We already load that when somebody comes right over to that dock, cable for you, and there's my brother, Philip, died. Everybody happen to be, they tell me can't let him go until you come back, then you will do something about it. And I did too. Yes. I did go out with that two-ton plane. Very heavy load. Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-148 GUNANOOT, D. Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A A Q A Q A Q A Q A Two tons. Yes. When we get up there, up to Gilbert Lake, it will be just like something to start a stove .... Is that how you got your food up to the traplines? Yes. Takes me about, takes me about three years before I run out of sugar. ■Chat's a lot of sugar! Yes. We've got thos big cans, screw cap. There's flour, same thing. Anything which can be spoiled, if it's anything raw, they put it in that big can. You were up on the trapline when you heard that your brother Philip had died? A Oh yes. Did you We're not quite ready but it just happened just about taking off on the plane, and what is the use break all of my things, unload the plane, so I got to take all my stuff up to Gilbert Lake. At that time, I'm free after that. Coming in that winter, take a trip around there. My mother finsihes everything, funeral and all the expense, so I finished. Your brother looked after the funeral expenses? Yes, mymother. Your mother? Yes. Was Philip a chief? Eh? Was Philip a chief when he died? No. He's only got a little name, that's all. You have a brother named Reg? Reg? Yes. He died about a week ago. Was he a chief? No. r»i8 vr.il have a brother named Simon? That's Simon. Reg is Simon? Yes. They're the same people? What? Did you also have a brother named Simon? No? No. You have a sister named Kathleen? Kathleen is our sister. She died long time ago. I Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 car 037 2-149 GUNANOOT, D. Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A forget how many years. About ten years ago Kathleen died. Did she have a Gitksan name? That's 'Wiinaagets. Was she a chief? That was big chief. Not really like 'Niikyap. 'Niikyap is head chief of every one of them. 'Niikyap is head chief? Yes. Did Kathleen have territory? Yes. My mother gave that territory to Maria and that William McLean and they're fixing up a little. Some kind of cabin up there. But when that William McLean died, and they were one of those -- every one of those they were moving into Kisgagas, sometimes further around town. They all move up to Kisgagas again going up around there but that -- who, now? Robert Jackson, take them around and let me trap all over the place. With the skidoo, that's what they're using. You get around faster on a skidoo, don't you? Oh yes. So is it Robert Jackson who traps on that territory now? Oh yes. He's looking after Melulek territory. Is Robert Jackson Melulek? Yes. He is? Does he have the name Melulek? He's -- he should have been Melulek but there's one -- he's kind of half sister down the coast who wants that name, so he left her have that Melulek, but nobody liked it because she's only woman, that's all, not very good enough to hold that chief name. Head chief. But he is still looking after that territory lip there, Xsagagyoot. That's the territory. The territory is up hear Xsagagyoot? Yes. And Robert Jackson looks after that territory? Yes, he's the one. Is he trapping on that territory? Yes. He's the one going around with Joshua McLean, or is Melulek and Oyee, territory right down, and that's where they come together again. I'm sorry, what's between them? What? What's between them? Between that Joshua and Robert Jackson there's only one hill there, going right over, and there goes Joshua, Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 0«ro3r 2-150 GUNANOOT, D., Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A took it on to that Milky Lake. Going down on the side and there's Robert Jackson put on his own too. So it's very nice between the two of them to get together and help each other. There's one more member of your family I want to ask you about, that is your sister Matilda? Which one? Matilda. Did you have a sister named Matilda? Who me? No. You had a sister Kathleen? Yes. Did you have another sister? You mean the little girl? She died up the head of the Skeena a long time ago. Did she die when she was a little girl? Yes, she's only about three years old. About two years old when she died. When we came up to talk to you the first time, David, you told us about doing some packing work for George Biernes? Yes, it used to be my job long time ago. When you were a young man? When you were a strong man? George Biernes Half pack, 170, 175 pounds, used to go like that. George Biernes had a ranch in the Kispiox Valley, didn't he? Oh yes. He was a white man, wasn't he? That would be about very close to, about 28 mile the other side, from here to there, to Biernes ranch. About 28 miles from here to there? Yes. To Biernes ranch. Is that the ranch that Marty Allen has now? Yes. Was George Biernes there when you were a little boy? What? When you were a little boy was George Biernes' ranch there? Little boy? Young man at that time. I was packing about five years before I go back to Stewart. Has that ranch been there a long time though? Oh yes. It was there before you packed, wasn't it? Yes, way before that. We only packed in there -- I was a young kid and we run into a bunch of horses up to the head of the Skeena. My dad was guide for them and taking those two bundles of furs, and they put it on, and they put my dad to guide the horse any place where Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 ;»t-03: 2-151 GUNANOOT, D., Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A they could go so could travel without snow, and he did too. Going down and going up again until we get out of there and coming into Black Water Lake, that's where we're coming in, to the line. Takla line. That's the time we're coming in to George Biernes ranch. Jack Silver, he's the one packing that two bundles of furs and take it up to -- above the ranch, way up there, get those packs down again. Put them into the buggy and take them into Kispiox. You brought the furs down and took them into Kispiox? Yes. That's the place where the Hudson Bay people knows that my dad was in town, and even that man own that house, C. B. Smith. It used to be a store. It used to be a store? Yes, and the house part. Was it your dad's store in Kispiox? No. I mean this place we are at right now. , Oh, this place right here? It belongs to the German guy, and his name was C. B. Smith. He read paper about it. Did he buy furs? Yes. Got to go, big head. Lot of hair? Big head. Sorry? That was the biggest head there was. Always go like that And he ran He can say hello. He could say hello to you? Yes, he can talk all right. But he can't move. George Biernes was a friend of your father's wasn't he? Yes. He tried to catch him but he can't. George Biernes not the owner of that land at that time I was talking about. Yes. That was, belongs to Cataline. Ken Lyon? You heard about Cataline? Cataline, oh yes, I'm sorry. Big cowboy. Yes. Did Cataline own the land? Yes, that's the place where he get all of those horses and he's the one looking after the telegraph line. Yes. Finally George Biernes comes in and talk to the old man about it, on account he's getting too old, so he tried Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 :nro3.- 2-152 GUNANOOT, D., Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A to get it, and he said he told Cataline anything what I make out of your horses, I'll give it all to you, until I get out how much I make and you find your price for the horses and that land. They did too. I seen the old man, I only see him once, that Cataline. Heard about that one. Was this when you were a small boy? Oh yes. I don't know how many, five, six years old. I think. Did George Biernes take over Cataline's business? Oh yes. He took it away from him. He did the packing? After he died, he took the whole thing, belongs to him for nothing. So was your father a friend of George Biernes? He was around there but nobody knows him. Nobody His name was Jack Johnson. After he gave himself up and he told them that was, "I'm Simon Gunanoot, you guys have been looking for me for a good many years". Was George Biernes What they going to do? Happened this side of the river. After your dad went down to the trial, and the jury said he was not guilty, he came back up here, didn't he? Which one? Your dad? He came back up here after the trial? Oh yes. He's going in, on the June sometimes but they miss the court in June, coming in late, so have to wait the whole summer, until October. That's the time give the trial, can't do a thing about it because they shoot, they shoot the house and the lawyers said you can shoot and shoot him long time ago, 13 years ago, and why did we in here. He died long time ago. Even the grouse, you can take the gun now and shoot him, that grouse should go down, flew away. There you go, look again, look again, see more grouse, that was one shoot. Until grouse are large mix-up. Your father's lawyer, his name was Mr. Henderson? Henderson, yes. Stewart Henderson. Did he used to come up here Oh yes. after the trial? Yes. That Edward Wright's wife's daughter, that was them -- I mean her. Her name was Maggie Green. She's a little girl, she always knows everything about anybody coming in. So she knew too. Says somebody looking for, and they get after Maggie, don't you know where? Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 ;nro3r 2-153 GUNANOOT, D. Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A MR. They didn't know until they call him Simon. Simon. Simon Gunanoot. Finally, she find what one they're talking about and she takes the lawyer and the lawyer pick up Biernes at this time, brings my father too. George Biernes was there too? Yes, and the two of them comes in. I was at the camp when they coming in. You were there? Yes. My dad tell me about it, that's the lawyer and that's the man look for him too. George Biernes. After it was all over, after your father went down and came back, did Mr. Henderson come back to Kispiox? Stewart Henderson? Eh? Did he come back up? No. You never saw him again? Oh no, he's seen my father. My father taking him up the place where they find the gold up -- close to Two Brothers Lake, but they find shovel and a pick. That's all they find and the lawyer comes back, and my dad find that out. That was the one, that's the last gold place. He wants me to go up there but I didn't Takes the whole thing myself, I come back to Stewart again, as I'm steady working. That's why I didn't go out with him, and my brother Fred was sick, rheumatism. Goes to be at RAchers Lake. Can't even go no place. But Alex and Charlie, they split up there. PLANT: David, let's take a short break, all right? We'll have a rest for a few minutes. SHORT RECESS CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT (continued) Q A Q Q A Q Before we broke, before we had our coffee break, you were telling me a little bit about some prospecting that your dad did with George Biernes, do you remember that? Yes. I wanted to ask you again where that was? You said Two Brothers Lake? That's right, close to Two Brothers Lake. That's what my dad said. I didn't seen it. You didn't see it? Yes, but Two Brothers Lake supposing to be about north, north-west I think to Two Brothers Lake. Where is Two Brothers Lake? Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-154 GUNANOOT, Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant D. A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A That's way up to head of the Skeena. I forget where it was. Is it Gitksan land? Do you know if the land around Two Brothers Lake belongs to the Gitksan people? That was all Stikine people I think. Knows places around there. Not very far away from that Dease Lake. It's not very far from Dease Lake? Yes, but I don't know and I never was there. Right. You told us that you moved to Steart? Mm-mm? You lived in Stewart for a long time? That's right, yes. You still have a place there now? Oh yes. I've still got my own property there. You have a house there? Yes. It's only two lot. That's all I got, two lot. Is there an Indian Reserve in Stewart? Indian Reserve right across there. Is your land on the Indian Reserve? Oh yes. No, never, it's in Stewart. Why did you go to Stewart a long time ago? I don't know. I used to fish around and go back to Stewart and trap around there and come out in the springtime, and come back to fish again. Finally, I got a job up at Premier Mine. At the time I didn't even go down and fish again. In the fall have to pack up and re-lay all my groceries, headed over to Bowser for two trips. All my pack, my dog too. You say you used to trap around Stewart, though? Not only Steawrt side. Some place around. I used to start to trap at about Bowser and go into my property up to that Gilbert Lake. That's where my cabin is, is Gilbert Lake. You have a cabin on Gilbert Lake? Yes. Did you fish around Stewart or was that somewhere else? What? Where did you fish? Where did I fish? Yes. Down there, but when I quit it, I quit it because I fishing for underground summer-time and winter-time go back and trap. This seem like I did what the inspector say, everything what I'm doing, what I'm doing in the summer-time I told him about it. Asked me what I do for winter time. I told him that I was trapping in the winter time. Started picking up the last man Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 ;to3.- 2-155 GUNANOOT, D. Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q at that time, specially the gun man, they never missed them. Just picked up and seen over the years that time but they let me go on account of those nice job I got, he said, trapping in the winter time and catching all those hundred per cent wool for the boys overseas, and the summer-time you going in there and get all those coppers out. We need load of copper for the shell. That's right, go ahead. When I get back down there I'll get your name. I'll get your name as a trapper and mining. The two jobs will keep you here as a trapper and that you have been making all those coppers. Who Which the war likes, exactly what you're doing. So when I get out there, they will never bother you with your work. I was watching, watching, think they forget it then come back and pick me up but, no, they didn't even bother. Did you ever join the army? What? Did you ever join the arm? You never did? No. That's the time they pick me up. They taking lot of people at that time but they let me go. They wants the hundred per cent wool for the boys. They could use for blazer. Hundred per cent wool, they can jump right into in small river, waded across, standing up on the other side and let it drain itself, start a little fire, standing around it, they're dried out. That's why they let me go and do the trapping. So you kept on trapping, and you worked in the mine to get the copper for the shells? Yes, that's right. They let me go. Who was it that let you go? That big man, kind of inspector I think up the people. A government man? Yes. No -- yes, he's the government. He could ask for anything what you been doing. Pick you up, send you overseas, where you're going to do the shooting. Did some of the Gitksan people go overseas? Yes. Eh? Did some of the Gitksan people go overseas? Oh yes. Quite a few of them, I don't know how many. Thousands of people around Premier mine. Every time the boat comes in it sounds very pretty when they come in. There's band with the Prince Rupert boat and Prince George, playing any kind of instrument. After they let 500 men going out today, 600 going out today. That's a lot of people. Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 He just picking Zar 037 2-156 GUNANOOT, D. Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q MR. MR. MR. Q A Q Yes. Were there some Gitksan people going? Like my brother Charlie was going over there too. Did he go over? Yes, he went over. He finished it all right. He was wanted two three times but he is going back in the mine. He wants to finish the job. He said, it seems to me I'm the one going away and if I shot the last one. So he went back? Yes, he went back. You kept working at the mines and trapping? Oh yes. What did you do after the war? Nothing. Same thing? Still there. I got the two places. I was working at the Premier some times or go up to Alaska. ' I was working for the Riverside Tungsten mine, that was another place. Only one time I joined that big battleship that was -- I forget what.they called -- that's the time I made a mistake but they let me go. I slipped in up to Stewart. That big cabin. Sure likes me to go around with him. Any place where he goes, going over to Haida, come on there, come on there. Put big cap on my head. Making me head captain on the ship. He keep on doing that. Three nights I didn't even sleep after we got up to Stewart. They didn't even give me a chance to sleep. Finally, I must have been sleepy and I remembered my home, go down there, and go to sleep. That night that big boat was whistling at four o'clock in the morning, I didn't even hear, nobody bothers me, I still sleeping. When I get up, I asked a fellow named Alan, I asked him, and he said "Your boat pulled out four o'clock this morning". This is a different subject but I wanted to know, David, have you ever voted? What? Have you ever voted in an election? RUSH: What kind of election? PLANT: Beg your pardon? RUSH: What kind of election? BY MR. PLANT: Have you ever voted in an election for the politicians, the white politicians from Victoria or Ottawa? I don't know whatis that. You know some times you have an election Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 Coro3r 2-157 GUNANOOT, D. Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant A Election? Q in the Band? A Election? Q You know what an election is? A That's all I know, elections around. I used to be with them. Q Have you ever gone and filled out a vote in the elections for the white people? A What supposed to be, for us, different altogether? Q I'm thinking about the government politicians in Victoria? A I don't know. I don't think so. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION MR. PLANT: I wonder if we could use Ralph's assistance? MR. RUSH: Go ahead. MR. PLANT: The point of the question is to find out if he's ever voted in a provincial or federal election; do you think you could interpret that? —- OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION IN GITKSAN THE WITNESS: No, I didn't vote for any one government. THE INTERPRETER: No, I didn't vote for anybody. --- OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION BY MR. PLANT: Q Q A Q I want to ask you some more about trapping now, David. I think you said you used to trap with Daniel Skawil? Oh yes. Yes. First time, when I went back to Stewart is about twenty-three when I got back to Stewart with my dad. Four of us trapped, Fred and Thomas Campbell and me and my father. Did you go trapping with Daniel Skawil? That's right. That was on my grandfather's hunting ground, that is what they used to call that. Xskiigimlaxha, that's my grandfather. But after Dan Skawil take the name as Xskiigimlaxha, my grandfather use dto be head chief, Xskiigimlaxha, but he died. My grandfather dieid and buried up to Grouse Lake. Old Man Skawil was being taking places to be a chief as Xskiigimlaxha. That hunting ground is near Awiijii Lake? Awiijii Creek? Yes. You mean Dan Skawil's? Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 OCT 03." 2-158 GUNANOOT, D. Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Yes. Yes. His trapline is near Skawil Creek? Yes. I have been with him quite a lot around there. Around to that Skawil Creek. Me and that old man before I got my own. He troubled me about me trapping on his trapline and the game warden picked me up, and the game warden got mad at the old man too, because he holding too much of that land around there, and that's the reason Martin turned around and gave me that pretty quick, on account of other owners died before me. Was that William Scott? Yes, William Scott. He's the one was taking off, taking the trip up to Stikine. He run into one of the priests in Galdo'o, that's why he left pretty quick for nothing, don't take anything at all. All his trap is all there. Peter Morrison was being there all right, before me. He took the traps away but I got that slate, found that slate with the copper, really that was nice. I sure liked that slate. Who trapped that area before you did? Was it William Scott or was there someone after William Scott? Yes, William Scott. He went up and married the girl from -- that I was talking about -- he didn't even come back to the Treaty Creek any more. Peter Morrison was up there trapping for a while. What was And he died up there, down to Paul Higgins cabin. That's where he died. Was William Scott a Gitksan person or was he a white man? Which one? William SCott? Oh yes, he's white. Regular white. White man. Who was Peter Morrison, was he a white man too? That was -- no, he was Indian. That some man before that Johnny Wilson. Is Peter Morrison -- sorry? Yes, still Skawil's nephew. So the game warden gave you that Treaty Creek trapline area? Yes. That time I was telling you about that, that's why I got that. Old man put me in trouble and I paid 200 and 250 for my fine at that time but Martin, the game warden, the head man of the game warden, comes over and ask what the trouble is. Martin get after me, took me into his office and showed me, why don't you put your man in trouble and get your money back, he said Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 Cnro3r 2-159 GUNANOOT, D. Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A to me but I didn't do it. So many people knows that, they already know what I'm going to do. I'm going to put Old Skawil but you can't. Finally, after he told me to shift on his, his own line but, no, I wouldn't do it. So Martin told me, I'll send to you the letter after I get out of the trouble, and fix you a map. I'll fix you the map and you had better go up there and take all your traps out to Skawil trapline and move it into, move it into around to that Treaty Creek? Treaty Creek, and you will be okay. You will be there for any time you like. The old man finds that out first He was angry? He was raising hell for me. I don't care. You better go into the Indian Agent again and talk to the Indian Agent and tell him that I already got part,of your land. Talk to the Indian Agent? . Yes. Now, he knows he can't even do anything about this after the game warden takes that land and give it to me. All the papers I signed up to be my own. After that, did you go trapping on the Treaty Creek property? On yes. I was being there. Finally, he get short-handed up to his place and he followed me again. Followed me again on the way and he wants me to go on his trapline. I told him you had better go into one of the office and make your paper that I'll take around. If you ever said anything I throw these back because I don't need you. I don't need you, or ground any more. So Finally, I said will go, I'll go 50-50 if I land, lot of beaver. I did go for that. I and canoed the river. First trip I made 40 beavers were there. Going up there again for another three days, get down again, another 40 beavers. Some of them I caugh|t up to — my trip up to Otters Creek. Very close to 100 beavers altogether. Heavy packs. That is when you went on Skawil's land? Yes. And you agreed you would share Yes. share the proceeds, or share the money? Yes. And at the same time next year he wants me to go back again. No, I said, what's the use of doing it. He only want to help you out so I give you that 800 and something close to $900 last year, I said. Not get that for you. How much trapping I do, so I can't go back Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 trap on your made a canoe Car 037 2-160 GUNANOOT, D. Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Q A Q A Q A Q A Q again. He was so sorry about it when I quit his trapline Quit altogether. Did you keep trapping on the Treaty Creek trapline? No, that's my own. Yes. Right. So you Yes. I only going there, head of the Treaty Creek right there, and there's the creek, goes down that way and goes into Eunich River, they call it. Goes off to Ketchikan, some place around there. Gilbert Lake is on your trapline? Oh yes. Right? Yes. Were there some other people who signed papers with you for your trapline? Where? For the Treaty Creek trapline? Gilbert Lake? Who sign papers? No. Do you know someone named Reggie Morrison? Reggie Morrison? Yes. Is he someone that you know or knew? Yes, he's no No Reggie Morrison? Not around here. How about people named Benson? Benson, that's Meziadin people. They're people from Meziadin? Yes. Did they hunt or did they trap on your Gilbert Lake trap- line? They tried one time. I caught up with them and chased them right back, and send them back. You sent them back to Meziadin? Yes. If I ever find your trap on my land I'll pick it up and give it to the game warden. You will find your traps into the game warden's office, if I pick it up. So you had better pick it up and go home, and they did too. They didn't come back? No. Do the Meziadin people come from Kitwancool? Yes, that's where they belong. The Bensons belong in Kitwancool? Yes. Do you still have a trapline around Treaty Creek and Gilbert Lake? That's right. Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-161 GUNANOOT, D. Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A You still have that? Yes. Who uses that now? Nobody there this winter. Jerry should have been there but he hasn't got a chance. My nephew, Jerry, he should be up there. Jerry Gunanoot? Yes. I already got his name on that too. You've got his name on the trapline? Oh yes. Is he a chief? What? Is he a chief? Is your nephew Jerry a chief? Oh yes. Is he the chief of a house? That was -- it's some kind, that's a chief too. When was that, that name's going too, got place up above Kisgagas there. Which one now? Billy and Thomas McLean was up there, and Joshua, I sent Joshua up to Oyee's trapline, up to Xsigwingyilaa. It seems to me doing a good job so I gave to McLean where they can do the work. Does Jerry have a Gitksan name? Gitksan, that's 'Wiinaagets. That's another chief name too, 'Wiinaagets. Big cool brain, that's what they called Has Jerry ever trapped on the trapline at Treaty Creek Gilbert Lake? Oh yes around -- I forgot how many years now. Only goes short way, didn't go over to the head of that, which they call Tim Williams' property. There's some man up there but he died long time ago, but nobody bothers that anymore. Tim Williams? Yes. Is he a Gitksan? No. He's a white man? Yes. The first time we met, Stuart asked you about the places you had trapped, and I think you said you had trapped near Meziadin; had you ever trapped near Meziadin Lake? Me? Yes. I trapped on my own. I don't think I understand. Have you We only pass in there some times from Bowser and Treaty Creek. Go right down Bowser, go into Meziadin, go into Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 Car 03: 2-162 GUNANOOT, D. Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant trap there? to kill the moose around there for dog meat. Lot of moose around there but I don't think there? over the place and let do you know? brother. Stewart and come out that on the way back on those dog teams. Q You pass by Meziadin? A Yes. Q Did you ever A No. We used that's all. so. Q You don't think you ever trapped A Lot of people shooting moose all it rot. Q But you didn't do that, you shot the moose for food? A Yes. That's the time got a lot of dogs. This is the time used a lot of meat. Q Who owns the territory around Meziadin Lake, A He died, Gordon Roberts but he died, but his John Roberts, still hang on to it. Q Where's he from? A Kitwancool. MR. RUSH: What did he say? MR. PLANT: Kitwancool. Q What clan is he? Do you know what clan he is? Is he a Wolf? A Yes, that's a Wolf. Q Did you ever go trapping with A No. Q You also spoke to Stuart about A Taft? Q Yes. A Yes, that was -- that's the place where the beavers are. There's a lot of beavers right in there. That's why they call it Luut'ahlts'imilix. Q Taft Creek goes into Bell Irving River, doesn't it? A Yes, and the other side is Luudagoogat. Q The other side is what? Could you say that again please? A Luudagoogat. Q Did you ever trap on Taft Creek? A Taft? Q Yes, did you ever trap there? A I was up there once. Me and Bob Skawil. Q Bob Skawil? A Yes.Yes, Bob Skawil and William Skawil. Q Did that territory belong to them? A Yes. But they didn't even bother me or nothing. That was before I got that Treaty Creek. Q That was before Treaty Creek? A Yes. Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 people from Kitwancool? a place called Taft Creek? car 037 2-163 GUNANOOT, D. Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q You went up there with Bob Skawil and William Skawil? Yes. Do you know who owns that territory now? Yes, I know. Gee, I forget. Did I give it to you? I gave it to you. Do you want to tell Ralph? I give it to you first but it stand up and the other one take off. He knows it. You don't remember who? You don't remember the name? He knows it. Ralph knows it? Yes. Do you know the Gitksan name? I forget that too. Too many names. Overloaded. You also told Stuart about a place where people used to get flint? What? You told Stuart about a place where people used to get flint? I think it was called Xsa ansalagamt? Xsa ansalagamt, yes. Where is that? That will be the first creek below that -- below that Taft. Below, you mean south or north? East of Bell Irving. It's close to Taft Creek? Yes. Yes, Taft Creek. And then Xsa ansalagamt there. And along side, right here. Spruce Creek. Spruce Creek? Yes, way down. Is Xsa ansalagamt between Taft Creek and Treaty Creek? No. Is it the other side? Treaty Creek. Treaty Creek is the other direction. Treaty was way up to, close to Awiijii. Is Xsa ansalagamt, is that the place where people get flint? Yes. Who gets flint there? I don't know. Anybody would, could do something. There used to be a trail around there. Picking up those flints They use it. Anybody could get that? Yes. David, have you ever heard of a place called Rochester Creek? Which one? Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-164 GUNANOOT, D. Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Rochester Creek. That was below Xsa ansalagamt you're talking about? Well, it's quite far away from Xsa ansalagamt. Yes. It's north. It's farther north than Hodder Creek; do you know where Hodder Creek is? Oh yes. Way up you're talking about? Yes. I didn't even know. That's the place where they find the big thing about the copper, right there now. Who's territory -- yes? Lot of people working there but I forget how many years ago. That's why they sell that, they sell that place up to that Grand Duke because they got so much copper up there. That's the one they got to look after. I've been up to Grand Duke too a lot of time. So there's copper up north of Hodder Creek? Oh yes. Do you know who owns that territory? Is that Gitksan territory? No, I don't know. You don't know owns it? No. Do you know if that's Gitksan territory? I know that Ninth Cabin, that used to belong to Jim Hodder. I don't know now who take it after. Jim Hodder? Used to be . Hodder long time ago, he registered that, but the old man find that out and he get after the Indian Agent again. But he take that land back and give it back to the old man. Old Man Skawil? Yes. But they still call it Jim Hodder after that Hodder Creek that's why he's gone in there, but the old man take it back again. Jim Hodder was a white man? Yes. He used to get a room downtown here, close to the riverside. In Hazelton? Yes, that's the place where he used to get a room, Jim Hodder. So Old Man Skawil went to see the Indian Agent about getting that trapline back? Yes, he got it back all right. Indian Agent take it back, give it back to the owner. The Indian Agent gave it back to Skawil? Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 ;oro3.- 2-165 GUNANOOT, D. Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 23 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Eh? The Indian Agent gave it back to Dan Skawil? Yes, give it back to Dan Skawil. The first time we met, David, you told Stuart about a trip that you had in a helicopter? Helicopter? With Neil Sterritt? With who? Neil Sterritt. You remember telling Stuart about that? I never go around we using helicopters around Stewart quite a lot of time. Tell me, do you remember going in a helicopter with Neil? Neil John Sterritt? Neil? Yes. Oh, around here. That was close to here, was it? Yes. Going up to that land claims, that's the one we using, follow the land claim, land claim lines every time. You remember going in a helicopter? Oh yes. And Neil was with you? Yes. And the time we were up to Bear Lake, that is the time we're using that, using the plane and landed about five miles below Bear Lake. Going up to Bear Lake on that little -- I don't know what they call that -- little place to trap there. What they call that? Kind of a plane or a place? Just like they using on the other side, on the rail. Oh, I see. Who was with you on that trip? That was Neil — quite a bunch of us. Neil and Ralph. Ralph Michell you're pointing to? Yes. Me and David Green. And Johnny Green. I forgot who is the other one. What did you -- did you walk around the territories up there? Up there we using the helicopters, looking at the place. I was being asked what they call that mountains and those rivers around there. I showed them everything about it, and tell what they call those mountains and even the lake and the river. When was this? This was last year. Summer last year. Just about died up there, dead up there. Sick, really sick on account of the heat around our place and, you know, that was awful high, high from the elevation, for me it's too much. Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 Cnro3r 2-166 GUNANOOT, D. Cross-Ex., Mr. Plant It's a helluva time to get me on those helicopters. Q Never get me on them! A One of them pushed me on and one of them pushed me up. Oh yes, Neil, old man Neil was out there too. Q He went too? A yes. Q I just have a few more questions then we'll stop for lunch. A Yes. Q I think you said that the man who put the name 'Niikyap on you was Walter Harris? A Eh? Q I'll ask it this way: who was it that gave you the name 'Niikyap? Was it Walter Harris? A Walter Harris? I'm mixed up again. I know that 'Niikyap 'Niikyap was right here. Q Walter Harris is Geel, isn't he? A Geel. Q Yes. Did he -- was he at the feast when you got the name 'Niikyap? A That's them, and his auntie gave me the blanket. Q His auntie gave you the blanket? A Yes. There's the one -- he's the one who has been -- Ralph taking that, taking that 'Wiiseeks. That's his own name now. He's big chief too. Q Ralph's a big chief now, is he? A Oh yes. Q Does he have his own territory? A Oh yes. Yes. It's close to Babine. They call it Gwalaxgyem. Q Has Ralph been out on the territory? A Eh? Q Has Ralph been on the territory? Has he been on 'Wiiseeks' terrritory? A I don't know. I suppose he has been some time. Don't take us long to travel with the helicopters now anyway. MR. PLANT: That's true. I think it might be a good time to break for a little rest over lunch. MR. RUSH: Okay. MR. PLANT: We'll stop now, David, and have lunch and come back at two o'clock, if that's all right? THE WITNESS: Yes. - RECESSED FOR LUNCH AT 12.00 noon Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-167 GUNANOOT, D., Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant UPON RESUMING AT 2.10 p.m. CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT (contd) Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Are there a lot of We're going to start again, David people in the House of 'Niikyap? What do you say? Are there a lot of people in the House of 'Niikyap? What do you mean? Do you know how many? That is what they say. No. names, that was quite a lot. quite a bunch of them there. a may --do you have All I know is me. Those Yes, I think there was That's what they say. a map of 'Niikyap's terri- Is there tory? No. You don't have a map of the territory of 'Niikyap? Follows the creeks around. That's what? Same as me on my trapline Does anybody live in Kisgagas now? Now? All the people have left? Yes. Those McLeans back and forth in there, and that Robert Jackson, that's them back and forth. Left about three years ago, didn't go up again. I might take a trip some day. I'm sure you've said this before but was 'Wiiseeks a chief at Kisgagas? What did you say again? Ralph is now 'Wiiseeks? - OFF THE RECORD BY MR. PLANT: 'Wiiseeks a chief at Kisgagas? he took Jackson's place. 'Wiiseeks a chief at Kisgagas? Q Was A Yes, Q Was A That's right. Q You have told us about Black Hat Tom? A Yes. Q He was a chief too? A That's right. Q What was his Gitksan name? A Gitksan? Q Yes. A Gwits'agan. OFF THE RECORD Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 :nro3r 2-168 GUNANOOT, D., Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant BY MR. PLANT: Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A He was a chief at Kisgagas also? Yes. That's right. Got family there too, big house going down -- going down flat now anyways. They been left Kisgagas long time ago. Too much for them, backpacking groceries up there. It's easy for them to stay around here, buy the groceries right in town, stay around town, and the reason why, seems to move down here quite a bit to get their mail here. Quite a bunch of them up to Kispiox too, the people from Kisgagas. All the people from Melulek's place, they all from Kisgagas. All the people from Melulek's? Yes. Who has the Gitksan name that Black Hat Tom had? Does somebody have that name now? One of them had it. He died again. I don't even know who take it. It used to be Arthur Sampson used to got it but he died. When did he die? He died right here. How long ago was that? Eh? Was that a long time ago? Yes, and even his wife died too, but he has got his daughter around here and those boys too. But you don't think -- you're not sure if someone has that name right now? I don't know. I would be at Stewart at the time when they're doing something about it and I didn't even know what's going on but it never takes me long to find that out. I know another of his name was Smex. That's another name we got there. Did he -- did Black Hat Tom have territory? Oh yes. Got the place where I was all going up with him. It's all round to -- started from It was a big place though? Eh? Way up north? Yes. Just about north from here. Over hundred mile. I think it is. set some traps all the way through Lake and going up to where what they call Xsu'wiiaks, Sustut River comes that way, and Xsu'wiiaks was there And there's a big creek comes down this way, it comes down from that, that place -- what they call it? Xsilaxamaawxs. That's where we be That was Black Hat Tom's territory? Yes, that is the one I was talking about right now. Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 Quite a ways anyway. I have been around. From out of Bear car 03: 2-169 GUNANOOT, D., Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant Q There was another name that you mentioned a while ago and that was Solomon Jack? A Solomon Jack. Q Was he a chief? Do you remember him? A Yes, I know Solomon Jack. Where is Solomon Jack a chief? There's Solomon Jack up here but there's Paul Jack. There's one in town. Q I'll see if I can find Solomon Jack. A 'Wiiangyamuum is what they call it. MR. PLANT: Stuart, I am looking at page 1-85 and, Susan, perhaps you could help me to pronounce the name there at line 19? OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION THE WITNESS: It was given to me. Solomon Jack up there didn't even know that that name was being given to,me, and my mother told me that I've got nothing to do about that name, because we've got our own name to look after. Louie Jack lost their brother Solomon. His name was Solomon and he died, just about going crazy, and there I am, I have been around around with them, that was the reason why Louise mother picked me up to stay with them and put that name on me as 'Wiiangyamuum. I don't want around and they're going, going out of my my brothers play around with. I've got all kind of names. Tsimganootsenex house of his. That's why I told Solomon a little while ago, Solomon didn't even know anything about it. I was the one myself, I told him, Solomon, what you going to do? I give it back to you right now. It's long time ago, I have been using it around and I don't need any more, you've got your family to use that name. And he told me, I don't know if I can use it, you have already given it back right now. that. Going way with me. Frankly that is main BY MR. PLANT: Q A Q A the name back to him? Q A Q So you gave Oh yes. Even though he didn't want it? Yes, he didn't want it. He can't even say he didn't even want it, what he says, I don't know anything about it. I can't help it, I said, my mother told me to give it back when I'm coming to grow up, 'Niist, and there I am right now. Did you give him the name or did you keep it? I gave it to him. I told him to have that name. He didn't know anything about it but you gave it to him? Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 car 03." 2-170 GUNANOOT, D., Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q is told Lake; Bob Yes. Talk about so you get it at the .... Is it a chief's name? Eh? Is that name a chief's name? No. Yesterday I think you told us that you went -- this a different subject, sorry -- yesterday I think you us that there was good berry-picking near Bob Quinn did I hear that right? Which one? Did you say that there was good berry-picking near Quinn Lake? I didn't even catch you. I think you were telling us yesterday about the places that you used to go or that you go to to pick berries? Like huckleberries and blueberries? At Bob Quinn you said? Yes. That's way for -- up the Cassiar Road you're talking about? Yes. That's where the berries are. Are there berries there? Everybody come from Kispiox, used to go up there and picking berries, lot of berries. Nice one too. Did you go up to pick berries? Oh yes, we were way up there quite a lot of times but I didn't pick berries. Just take them up and eat them Black mouth. When was the last time you went up to Bob Quinn Lake? Gee, I don't know. I can't remember. A long time ago? Yes. Not very long. Was about seven or eight years ago. You say that is up at the Cassiar Road? Yes. There is another name I want to ask you about and that name is Charlie Sampson? Yes. I think his Gitksan name is 'Niist, is that Harry Sampson? Is it Harry Sampson? I don't know which one you say? I want to ask you about 'Niist. 'Niist? Yes. That's Kispiox. Is that a Kispiox name? Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-171 GUNANOOT, D., Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant A Yes, 'Niist, that's Charlie Sampson. Q Does 'Niist have territory up near the territory of Daniel Skawil? A No, got nothing to do with Skawil's. He has got is own, his own trapline, up to side of fourth cabin, between third and fourth cabin. That's the place where he's got that. Q That is where his trapline is? A They call it Xsin nihl hlandin. That's what they call it, that river. Q Could you give us that again, please? A Xsin nihl hlandin. 'Ģ-- OFF THE RECORD BY MR. PLANT: A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Is that the name of his territory? Yes. Even the lake is there too, T'amxsin nihl hlandin. That's the name of the lake? Yes, going right over to -- this is Bowser Mountain and there's little river going -- running, coming down other side Bowser Lake, and when you get to the bottom there is T'amxsin nihl hlandin. The other side of Bowser Mountain? Bowser Mountain. Bowser Mountain? Yes. Do you know someone whose name is Alfred Shanoos? Yes. That is little other side of seventh cabin, what they used to call seventh cabin. That's the place where he's got a place there, Arthur Shanoss. What is his Gitksan name? Gitksan name? Yes. Arthur Shanoss? Gee, I forgot. Do you know where he is from? Is he from Kispiox also? I think his family left. Peter Shanoss died up at Stewart and his brother, daughters all died off, up there, up to Stewart. Margaret, Sarah, Percy. That's them that died. Alfred a chief? Yes. Not big chief. But he had hunting territory? Oh yes. Do you know his house? Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 X-172 GUNANOOT, D., Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A MR. He is Txas sigwun. That was from, on "Ehe Stikine, Txas sigwun. came from? has made a claim I got his Indian name. -- those name is came That is where is name Yes. David, you know that the Tribal Council to the Federal Government in Ottawa? In Ottawa. You know that the government in Ottawa -- you know the Tribal Council has made a claim asking for things from the Federal Government? Do you know about that? That's one I've forgotten about. Which is that? I told somebody -- told me that somebody would be telling me that, you got to -- you got to join your own government, every one of you people. Well, I don't know which our government is. There's federal and what?. Well British Columbia. Yes. That's right. And maybe there's the chiefs too. you knew about the land claim with Yes. Do you know about that? No. Maybe that's what they're talking about because that fellow was telling me, you got your own government Who was that fellow? Who tell me? Yes. I believe it's Ian McLeod, I think. Up to Stewart. He's a fellow from Stewart? Yes. He's the mayor. The mayor? He's nice, always, I didn't even know. He's always telling you things? I wanted to the Federal know i f Government? Pardon? He's always Oh yes. He's always Yes. PLANT: Can we just about telling you things, is he? after you, always telling you things? take done. a break for a few minutes, because I'm OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION BY MR. PLANT: Q A I have a few more questions, David. was 'Niikyap, right? What? Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 Your chief's name C»ro3r 2-173 GUNANOOT, D., Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 A 9 Q 10 11 A 12 Q 13 14 15 16 A 17 A 18 A 19 20 Q 21 A 22 23 24 Q 25 A 26 Q 27 28 29 A 30 31 Q 32 33 A 34 Q 35 36 37 A 38 39 Q A 40 41 Q 42 43 44 45 A 46 r\ 47 Your name is 'Niikyap, right? That's right. And you're the chief of a house, aren't you? Yes. Who makes the decisions in your house? 'Niikyap, maybe. That's you? In the whole house. You make the decisions or is it the whole house that makes them? It's got to be -- it's got to be head man to do that. I have a couple of letters, David, that I want to show you. One of them is a letter that I think has your signature on it, and it's a letter to the game warden about your trapline; have you seen that letter before? This one? Yes. Have you seen something like that before? I know I got that one, one Martin gave me, but who made this one? You have a letter that Martin gave you? Yes, I keep it, after I moved up to Stewart, on the last day, there's too many in the house, old papers all mixed up. Well, this letter is just two years ago. Two years ago? Yes. I'll read it to you if you like but what it says is -- is that your signature at the bottom? Is that something like your signature? Somebody, seems to be the way I'm doing things. Maybe. I don't know. You're not sure? What it says is that you, David Gunanoot That's right. have a trapline and that you are authorising your interest in that trapline to be transferred to the Tribal Council; do you remember doing that? I believe I didn't even register that. I told you, it seems to me that's not my writing. Okay. So you don't remember doing this? No. If you don't remember doing that then you probably don't remember getting this letter; this is a photocopy of a letter which is addressed to you signed by Neil Sterritt and some other people from the Tribal Council. It also talks about your trapline. Yes. Somebody wants to do something about, for that. I believe because I don't talk about anything about my Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 Car 03: 2-174 GUNANOOT, D. Cross-Ex. Mr. Plant trapline, like what it said there. Q Like it said in that letter that has your name at the bottom? A Yes. Q Well, let's just, so we know what we have been just talking about, mark the first letter which is dated April 2nd, 1984 purportedly signed by David Gunanoot, or has the name David Gunanoot at the bottom, I should say, as Exhibit 3; and mark the next letter which is like the first letter on the letterhead of the Gitksan Carrier Tribal Council dated April 26th, 1984 addressed to -- or purportedly addressed to David Gunanoot and signed purportedly by Mr. Sterritt, we'll mark that as Exhibit 4. I should say for Mr. Rush's benefit, both these documents come from the provincial government's trapline files. MR. RUSH: And you should know that we may well take an objection to these because neither have been identified by the witness. I don't mind these going in subject to an understanding at trial we may well object to them. MR. PLANT: In fact I agree entirely. I just want to make sure that everything that David has just said about those letters can be identified to those letters and that's why I want them marked. I quite accept the understanding, the way you've just put it. --- EXHIBIT No. 3 - Letter dated April 2, 1984 with the name David Gunanoot at the bottom, addressed the Game Warden re: trapline. EXHIBIT No. 4 - Letter dated April 26, 1984 on the letterhead of the Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council addressed to David Gunanoot purportedly signed by Neil Sterritt. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION MR. PLANT: The next thing is, there has been evidence about helicopter trips and plane trips to parts of the territory where David Gunanoot has gone out with others. On the assumption there may well be notes or a record of any of the information that arose out of those trips, I would ask that any documents that might have been generated from those trips be produced or disclosed. You can make Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 Car 037 2-175 GUNANOOT, D., Cross-Ex., Mr. Plant Re-Ex., Mr. Rush MR. MR. MR. any claim of privilege that you want to make in respect of that material, again assuming it exists, at that time. I don't have any other questions. RUSH: With respect to the comment that you just made we'll -- again, if such documents exist and it's my belief that they do -- we'll disclose them on the next document list that we will disclose. PLANT: Thank you. Well, those are all of my questions. RUSH: I have a few questions on re-direct. I think maybe I should perhaps move to your chair. OFF THE RECORD MR. RUSH: David, just before I ask you a few more questions -- I get another chance to ask you questions -- the lawyer who is here representing the Attorney General of Canada also has a right to ask you questions, and I'm now going to ask Mr. Irving if he wants to ask you any questions. John, do you want to ask any questions at this time? MR. IRVING: No, I will not be asking any questions of this Witness today. MR. RUSH: Thanks. RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. RUSH: Q A Q A Q A Just one or two more questions, David, and then I think we're finished. I hope we're finished and I bet you do too. David, you talked about Muut's territory? What? Muut. Where is Muut's territory? I don't know. I forgot which side Simon Morrison, in the Skeena. There's Simon Morrison right here and I think is Muut next to there. Because the both of them, they got a cabin some place and they're going together every time. They're going up the river, same thing when they get there and stay up there. My mother was telling me about that Simon Morrison. He is some kind of close friend to my father. Muut is camp at our house at Kisgagas, that was Muut. He's going around with Simon but they're going together to trap. So Muut's trapline is next to Simon Morrison's? I believe so, yes. Further up and across the river up there, and there's the creek goes, come down here. That's Johnny Morrison, no more Simon Morrison, but this is Johnny Morrison creek. That's his trapping place and the old man who has been telling me about these trapline up, up that creek, lot of beaver up there. That's why you got that, his ways trapping. My mother left me with them and I was crying because I was, I don't like to Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 0="-03." 2-176 GUNANOOT, D., Re-Ex. Mr. Rush Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q be going around with people, but I was a little boy still playing. Finally, getting too dark and I start crying. David, is Simon Morrison related to Johnny Morrison? No. No? No. Just last name's the same. Johnny Morrison is Lax Gibuu. He's Lax Gibuu? That means great thing to have too, and Simon Morrison is Giskaast. Now you told us that you trapped yourself out there at Treaty Creek? That's right. You told Mr. Plant Who? Mr. Plant. Geoff? You might remember him as Geoff? Yes. You told him this morning that there was a Peter Morrison who trapped at Treaty Creek? That was long time ago. What I wanted to ask you was: did he trap at Treaty Creek before William Scott or after William Scott? That's after that. After that. William Scott left. That's the time Peter Morrison was around there, right after, and Peter Morrison took sick and go back in the -- what is left over at his camp, and he didn't even know that he is still back, set up, after he pushed that wood into, where it's leaning against that big tree where his camp is, and that wood got him right in there, opens up inside. He was awfully sore, so he got after the doctor about it, and the doctor told him, you just quit everything but to lay on the bed, get healed up and you will be okay. If you walking still opens up every time, it will be no good for you. But he didn't. Really drinking every time and he went out with the rest of the people and got up to Bell Irving, making raft, carried, pulling those logs, doing that all summer. We started out and going out with him. Finally took sick and what am I going to do. I told him we might as well go back. No, no, I'll be okay after while. I said you won't be, you won't be, you'll be dead. No, one more trip, and he got about one case of rum, that's all he cares about, rum. Finally he really had it and took sick. Finally he died and me and Paul, what we're going to do, and Jack or Charlie, Charlie Beal, that's another white man, bring him back. I was going to try and take him to town. I just about trying but the doctor said, you wouldn't Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 :ar03.- 2-177 GUNANOOT, D., Re-Ex. Mr. Rush 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A ( A Q A Q Q A Q A Q A Q A be doing very good if you tried but, no, you can't, you will be too late It's healed up and there's -- he got circles right into it and comes finally he got. no place for anything what he eat. Now that's the time you got bit for that, you operate him. You got a good idea, you being man, to think about that but, you know, you will never make, same as everybody. Was Peter Morrison, was he Lax Gibuu? No, Laxsilyu. He was Laxsilyu? Yes. What village was he from? That is Dan Skawil's nephew. Yes, that's his nephew. You were asked about Gerry Gunanoot? You remember Gerry? Gerry? Yes. 'Wiinaagets? What? You were asked about Gerry? What? Where is his territory? Gerry? Gerry's terr i tory ? That was mine. I put him on my land. That's the line up at Treaty Creek? Yes, that's right. Did he have some other territory? No. He didn't have anything else? No. Okay. He leave that to one he has got, up to my mother's, given it to those McCain's family. Because we got too much land for that there up to Bear Lake, there's too much. Goes to Samuel Brown. That will finish everything about the funeral like that, and that's about the name. Quite a lot of things about that. Some of the people, they're picking up that kind of thing about three times before everything's settled. Gerry's name, his Gitksan name is 'Wiinaagets? That's right. Where is 'Wiinaagets' territory? Does he have any territory? That's what I mean, up to, past Kisgagas, right there. You were asked about Alfred Shanoss Arthur Shanoss? Yes. What village is he from? He comes from, the family up to Galdo'o, and that part of the family is Charlie 'Niist -- is that right? Charlie Sampson. Yes, that's his family. Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-178 GUNANOOT, D., Re-Ex. Mr. Rush Q A A A Q A Q And you told us about Ian McLeod over at Stewart, the mayor over there? A That's right. Q Is he still the mayor? A I believe so. Sometimes, you know, they try and quit that but they all, they just leave it the way it is because he's too nice, too nice for everything what he has on. Just let it go the way it is. So I think, I don't know if they get new one now, I think. I heard that, I heard that they has been talking about that -- his name is Dave, the one looking after the -- got a drugstore up there. A lot of the town closed up over there when the mine shut down? Oh yes. They did that but they don't care about that. You mean Grand Duke? Yes. Yes, I have been up to that Grand Duke, another few years. I was lucky there at the time when there was 27 people illed there. Were you working there then? Yes, that was logs. I was just thrown out of the job up there, so the reason why Campbell, Jack Campbell, sent me down, you can go home today, Dave. I was going. I thought I was out to make it for one year. It's only about four months to go, finish one year, and rest for a while. Or might go two years. Take trip for -- take a a trip around, for three trips with pay too. Q It'salways paid when you get paid, isn't it? A Yes. But, no, can't make it that time. He sent me down. Alan meet me at the hotel and he said, you don't have to go home, Dave, you're chimney break down on top of the house. That's okay, I can stay here, fix it up. Sometime everybody drunk. Q David, did you A Takes a little time. Q Yes. A Get up and go down, go down the bar, it's already open at 11 o'clock, and there he goes in, hey, look, there goes the lucky man, and he comes behind me and patted me on my back, did you hear the news yet, Dave. What news? You remember your camp up there, up Grand Duke, 27 man got killed there last night. You're lucky you're coming out. Twenty-seven. When they start, a short while after that they sent the bulldozer man, she looks like eyes in the snow there. He stopped and watched it, and he sees the eyes moving. That's the time he Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 2-179 GUNANOOT, D., Re-Ex., Mr. Rush Proceedings shut the thing right off and jump right off. Cut the sound off, can't even talk. They take, they call some of these people looking for bodies. They shovel right around, finally they get them out. Same time they get them out, there's a plane, they put them on the plane, Grand Duke to Vancouver. Just a few minutes flying. MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE RUSH: David, those WITNESS: Oh yes. RUSH: I think that so I think we're Yes. would like Maybe you the Indian are all the questions I have. MR. THE MR. s all the questions any of us have, over now. WITNESS: RUSH: I would like to thank you very much. WITNESS: Maybe you tell like about lucky, that is old.story about the Indian talking too much and sleeping, asking this owl keep on saying that. Finally, daylight comes and you grey face, you grey face He going down dead. Can't even talk no more. RUSH: That was the end of the talking, was it? WITNESS: Yes. RUSH: Thanks a lot, David. PROCEEDINGS CONCLUDED 3.20 p.m. 14 MAY, 1986 I hereby certify the foregoing to be a true and accurate transcript of the proceedings herein, to the best of my skill and ability. AVD-Jan.14/87 Veronica HarperNfMs) Official Court Reporter B.C.S.R.A. #263 Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189 Veronica Harper Official Court Reporter 874-6189