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[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1987-06-15] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jun 15, 1987

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 1217  1  2  3  4 THE  REGIS  5  6  7 THE  COURT  8 THE  CLERK  9 MR.  GRANT  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  SMITHERS, B.C.  June 15, 1987  \R:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  Columbia, this 15th day of June, 1987.  Delgamuukw  and others versus Her Majesty the Queen.  Mr. Grant.  Witness, I remind you, you're still under oath.  Yes, my lord.  I would like to start just by --  there's a couple of the areas that the witness has  already given evidence on.  I just have one or two  questions on them.  Last week you described the  adaawk of ska 'wo.  When the children came back down  to re-set up the village were crests put on the  fronts of their Houses?  Yes.  And what -- could you tell the Court what those  crests were?  A moon.  Mm-hmm?  And the other House is rainbow and stars.  Yes?  And Guxsan.  And Guxsan?  Yes.  Gaxsbgabaxs.  And what is that?  Is that the moon?  Yes.  And do the rainbow and the stars that were on the  crest of that house, are they connected to the  rainbow and stars on Hanamuxw's pole?  Yes.  Can you explain that relationship?  Well, between the three houses, and that came from  Tarn lax amit.  So Hanamuxw's House had the rainbow and stars  at Tarn Lax amit?  Yes.  And they came from before that time at Ska 'wo?  Yes.  Another area I was asking you about last week and  did not quite complete was the use of wood by the  Gitksan, and I would like, if you could tell me, if  maple was used by the Gitksan?  Yes.  And did you see this use of maple yourself?  Yes. 121?  1  Q  2  A  3  MR.  GRANT  4  5  THE  COURT  6  MR.  GRANT  7  THE  TRANS  8  9  THE  COURT  10  11  MR.  GRANT  12  13  14  15  16  THE  COURT  17  18  19  MR.  GRANT  20  21  22  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  GRANT  25  THE  COURT  26  MR.  GRANT  27  THE  COURT  28  29  30  31  32  MR.  GRANT  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  GRANT  35  36  37  THE  COURT  38  39  40  41  42  MR.  GRANT  43  44  45  46  THE  COURT  47  And how was the maple used?  Hoobixim gan, wooden spoon.  :  The Gitksan word you just said was the word for  wooden spoon, is that right?  :  I suppose we have the spelling?  :  I believe -- do you have that?  LATOR:  Hoobixim gan, H-o-o-b-i-x-i-m-g, underlined,  a-n.  :  Is it really necessary, Mr. Grant, to have this  spelling in both languages.  :  Well, my lord, the witness gave the word.  I just  checked with the reporter -- or the interpreter  because she had given the word, and I noted the  interpreter is -- I wasn't going to have the  interpreter give the spelling out in court.  : Well,I don't see how we can use the indian words if  we don't have the spelling, if that's what seems to  be taking so much unnecessary time.  :  Well, I've assumed that the indian words, as long as  Madam Interpreter has the spelling they could just  be put on the transcript and I wasn't going to be  asking her to spell it.  Well, the reporter has to stop and get it though.  Yes, I know.  I was watching that.  Yes.  If there's a problem --  It seems to me that's what is taking an inordinate  amount of time.  I don't know if the witness has  been instructed to use both languages, but if she  has, it seems to me that it's -- that that is  unfortunate, but I have to leave it to you to --  No, my lord.  To conduct your case.  There are words that are place names that I've asked  the witness to give those, and you've got most of  those lists.  I can't believe it's going to help the resolution of  this case to know that a spoon made of maple wood  has to -- to know the word in both languages.  It  just doesn't seem to me to be any utilitary value at  all, but go ahead and see how we get along.  Well, all I wish to say, my lord, is the witness, as  I indicated earlier, she's been using English most  of the time, and sometimes the witness just answers  in Gitksan spontaneously.  I notice it happens with remarkable frequency, Mr.  Grant, and if she's been instructed to do it, then 1219  so be it.  I merely make that suggestion for your  benefit if you can take advantage of it to hasten  the matter along.  If you can't, well, then you  can't.  MR.  GRANT  Q  9  10  11  12  13 MR.  14 THE  15 THE  16 THE  17 THE  18 MR.  19  20  21  22 MR.  23 THE  24  25  2 6 MR.  27  28  29  3 0 MR.  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41 THE COURT:  42  4 3 MR. GRANT:  44  45  4 6 THE COURT:  47  What I was saying was that rather than giving full  answers in Gitksan, I think sometimes she's  answering a couple of words in Gitksan because she's  more familiar I think in giving the English, just so  she can think of the word.  Now, is there a use of  yellow willow?  A    Yes.  GRANT:  And what is it used for?  INTERPRETER:  They use them to spark up a fire.  COURT:  To start a fire?  INTERPRETER:  Yes.  COURT:  Thank you.  GRANT:  Q  did  And was -- was charcoal used, did they use  they carry something to make fire with them?  A    Yes.  GRANT:  And can you explain how they made the fire?  INTERPRETER:  They put the charcoal in birch, the bark, and  they could carry this along with them, and that's  how they would start their fires.  GRANT:  Q  A  GRANT:  What about lighting their way in the dark, how did  they light their way in the dark?  They used the same thing.  Now, my lord, I don't know if my friends -- this was  delivered to them this morning, because the map was  only completed.  It's a map of the Kitwanga fishing  site, which I wish to again use in the same way as I  used the other map.  It's not within the material,  both counsel have it, and it's -- I received it late  on Friday, and it's just a -- it's a map that is  similar to the other map, and I don't want to put it  to the witness, but I ask that it be marked as an  exhibit for identification, and I have a copy for  the Court.  Well, I'm sorry.  You say you're not putting it to  the witness?  This map, as with the other map, is a map to assist  the Court and counsel.  It will later be identified  by one of the cartographers.  You're going to be asking the witness about the  matter shown on the map? 1220  1 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  So I thought that it would be of assistance to  2 the court to have a copy.  3 THE COURT:  Is there any problem, Mr. Plant?  4 MR. PLANT:  Well, I have yet to -- I only saw the document about  5 five minutes ago.  I haven't even seen it long  6 enough to know if I have a problem.  I'll take no  7 position.  8 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  All right.  It can be the  next exhibit for identification.  PLANT:  That's on the understanding my friend is going to be  proving it in due course, as I believe I heard him  indicate.  COURT:  All right.  GRANT:  Of course, if I can't prove it in due course it  can't be marked as an exhibit proper.  COURT:  What's the next exhibit number, please.  9  10 MR.  11  12  13 THE  14 MR.  15  16 THE  17 THE  18 THE  19 MR.  20  21  22  23 THE  24  25  26  27  28  2 9 MR.  30  31  32  33 THE  34 MR.  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42 THE  4 3 MR.  44  45  46  47  REGISTRAR:  31.  COURT:  PLANT:  COURT:  GRANT:  COURT:  GRANT:  For identification.  If my friend has no intention of proving it in due  course then I'm not sure it should not be marked at  all, and I just want to be clear that it is his  intention to prove it.  I'm not sure I agree with you, Mr. Plant, with  respect.  It may be useful to have it just to  understand the evidence of the witness as she's  going along, even though it's never tendered.  I  don't know, but your position is recorded and  understood.  Go ahead.  That's why I'm tendering it now, my lord.  EXHIBIT 31 FOR IDENTIFICATION  Map  COURT:  GRANT:  Q  Go ahead, Mr. Grant.  Now, I may just assist the court by advising the  court as to what -- how these two maps work in  conjunction.  If you put the map, Exhibit 31 for  identification, on the left-hand side of the other  map, it's a continuation of the river downstream.  In other words, we went from above Kitsegukla to  below Kitsegukla yesterday -- or on Friday, and now  this would be a continuation from there downstream.  Yes.  And of course, also, the listing of names  alphabetically at tab 19 of Exhibit 29 is --  continues with names on this side.  Now -- and of  course, as I said for the record, the map isn't 1  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  1221  going to be put to the witness.  Mrs. Ryan, the last  fishing site you talked about below Kitsegukla on  Friday was --  Gwin suuks.  Gwin Suuks?  Yes.  Can you tell the court, just as you did on Friday,  8 if you continued downstream the next fishing site,  9 where it's located, which side of the river, and  10 whose it is?  11 A    Yes.  One Gwin suuks to An luu oo'la.  12 VOICE: Number 351  13 MR. GRANT:  For the record, both Friday and today Mr.  14 Sterritt is on location calling out the names  15 just for assistance.  16 THE COURT:  Which one is 351 ,which side of the highway?  17 MR. GRANT:  It's on which side, the railway or the highway side?  18 A    On the railway side.  19 THE COURT:  Thank you.  2 0 MR. GRANT:  21 Q And who owns -- which clan owns that site?  22 A Eagle.  23 Q Is there a fishing site across the river from there?  24 A Smakhlit.  25 THE TRANSLATOR:  384.  2 6 MR. GRANT:  27 Q 384?  And who owns that fishing site?  2 8 A An luu oo'la.  29 Q That's of the frog clan?  30 A Yes.  31 Q Okay.  Is An luu oo'la located near where a village  32 has been?  33 A Yes.  34 Q And what village was that?  35 A The white man calls it Andimaul, that's Andimaul.  36 Q When -- continuing down the river, what is the next  37 fishing site?  38 A    Diphl gwin gaak.  39 VOICE:  Number 360.  40 THE COURT:  That's on the railway side?  41 A    Yes.  42 MR. GRANT:  43 Q    And who owns that fishing site?  4 4        A    Twam na'axhl, Twam na'axhl.  45        Q    Which house is he in?  4 6        A    Hanamuxw's.  47        Q    Do you have the spelling of that name?  And that's 1222  A  Q  A  Q  A  8 VOICE:  39?  9 MR. GRANT:  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27 VOICE:  354  2 8 MR. GRANT:  29 Q  30 A  31 Q  32 A  33 THE COURT:  34  35 MR. GRANT:  3 6 THE COURT:  37 MR. GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  of the frog clan?  Yes.  And is there a fishing site across from that fishing  site?  On the highway side.  Mm-hmm?  They call it Xsi an dilgin, that's Haalus.  And is there a fishing site near Xsi an dilgin?  Win lekhl gan si'maa.  And who owns that site?  Hlengwax.  And he's of the frog clan?  Yes.  Continuing downstream, what is the next fishing  site?  Ganayam.  Okay.  On the highway side?  Yes.  All right.  That's the -- I believe the last part of  the name is G-a-m-a-y-a-n.  There's a longer word in  front of it on the map.  Who owns that fishing site?  Guxsan.  And is there another site downstream from there?  Ant kii is.  And who owns that site?  That's Kilawo'.  Is that of the Eagle Clan?  Yes.  I didn't get the number for the one with the long  name ending in Mayan.  I spelled it out, it was -- just a moment.  You did?  It's coupled with the longer part of the name.  38 VOICE:  Number 396.  3 9 THE COURT:  Thank you.  4 0 MR. GRANT:  41        Q  42  43 A  44 Q  45 A  46  47        Q  Okay.  Can you go on down the river and tell us the  next fishing site?  Across and to the east, Lax an ixw.  And who owns that site?  Nobody owns it, but of -- but the fishermen.  The  fishermen use it for line.  Is that near Kitwanga? 1223  37  38  39  40  A  Q  A  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  GRANT  MR.  Yes.  The mouth of the Kitwanga River?  Yes.  It's not referred to on the map, my lo  Oh, all right.  rd.  And it's on the railway side?  On this map  Yes.  9        Q    Is it above or below the mouth of the river?  10 A    Down below.  Lax an ixw.  11 MR. GRANT:   Can you just give us the spelling for that.  12 THE TRANSLATOR:  Lax an ixw, L-a-x, underlined, a-n i-x-w.  13 THE COURT:  This is the river marked Lax an ixw, is it?  14 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  And underneath it you see Kitwanga River in  15 brackets and small river.  Oh, yes.  16 THE COURT:  17 MR. GRANT:  18 Q  19  20 A  21 Q  22  23 A  24 Q  25  26 A  27 Q  28 A  29  30 Q  31  32 A  33 MR. GRANT:  34  35 THE INTERPRETER  3 6 MR. GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  And it's at the mouth of that river, it's on the  Skeena River, right?  Yes.  But it's on the mouth where the Kitwanga River  comes out?  Yes.  Continuing downstream from there, what is the next  fishing site?  Xsi gwilax sit.  Which side is it on?  On the railway side  Creek, Sa'an sgyoxxw.  Is the one you said, Xsi gwilax sit, i  the Kitwanga River and Mill Creek?  Yes.  Can you give a spelling for that please, Madam  Interpreter.  It's not on the map.  Which one?  And the next one is Mill  s it between  Xsi gwilax sit, is it?  Yes.  Can you repeat that word for the --  Xsi gwilax sit, Xsi gwilax sit.  41 THE INTERPRETER:  Xsi gwilax sit, X-s-i g-w-i-1-a-x, underlined,  s-i-t.  Okay.  44 VOICE:  The other one mentioned is 383, Sa'an sgyoxxw.  4 5 MR. GRANT:  And Xsi gwilax sit, who owns that fishing site?  Frog.  42  4 3 MR  46  47  GRANT:  Q  A 1224  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  THE  COURT:  6  MR.  GRANT:  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  MR.  GRANT:  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  VOICE:  Num  25  MR.  GRANT:  26  THE  COURT:  27  28  MR.  GRANT:  29  30  THE  COURT:  31  32  MR.  GRANT:  33  34  35  36  THE  COURT:  37  MR.  GRANT:  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  VOICE:  372  47  MR.  GRANT:  Ganeda, the frog.  Same, frog.  And which House,  Hak'w.  Sorry?  What about Sa'an sgyoxxw?  which chief?  Hak'w.  Hak'w.  Does Hak'w own Xsi gwilax sit  No.  Okay.  What House, what Chief  Tooxensxw.  Continuing downstream from tha  is the next fishing site?  'Tim ba'.  as well?  owns that of the frog?  t fishing site, what  Which side of the railway  side of the river is it on?  Railway side.  And who owns that site?  Gwis gyen.  Is there one site or two sites there?  Two fishing sites.  of the river, which  Is the Court following?  Yes.  I didn't get the one tha  Mill Creek and Skeena River.  It's 383, and it's actually on  Sa'an sgyoxxw.  Yes?  There are -- there's jus  the map?  Yes.  There's one at the mouth  River, Lax an ixw, and there's  gwilax sit, which is not on --  River and Mill Creek on the ra  Yes.  All right, thank you.  t's at the junction of  the map, my lord,  t two that are not on  of the Kitwanga  another one, Xsi  between the Kitwanga  ilway side.  Continuing down the river, what's the next fishing  site after 'Tim ba'?  Gwin 'waax.  Which side of the river?  Railway side.  Do you know of a village -- of  was a village called Gis k'a h  Yes.  a place where there  oixs? 1225  Is this fishing site you just described near Gis k'  hoixs?  Near Gis k'a hoixs on the other side.  Is it up river before you get to Gis k'a hoixs?  An jam Ian on the railway side.  k'a hoixs was 372.  An jam Ian was 356.  356?  356.  Just to go back for a moment, after 'Tim ba'  you gave a name of a fishing site.  Can you give  that name again.  What is the next fishing site  after 'Tim ba'?  Gwin 'waax.  And that's on the highway side or railway side?  Railway side.  Who's fishing site is that?  Gwin 'waax?  Yes?  Hak'w.  That one is not on the map, my lord.  And next to  that site, the next site down?  We still on the railway side?  If you want, sure.  Just keep going on the railway  side.  Gis k'a hoixs, this side, Boulder Creek.  Before you do that, is the one you've just  named before you get to Gis k'a hoixs, the fishing  site you said belonged to Hak'w.  Yes.  Is that before --  Gwin 'waax, yes.  It's before Gis k'a hoixs?  Not very far from Gis k'a hoixs.  Did you get a spelling for that?  34 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  35 THE COURT:  Does it have a number?  36 MR. GRANT:  There's no number for that particular site.  It's  37 not on the map.  38 THE COURT:  I'll need the spelling again, please.  39 THE TRANSLATOR:  G-w-i-n, apostrophe w-a-a-x.  4 0 MR. GRANT:  Now, before you crossed to the highway side, that  side after that is Gis k'a hoixs, I believe you  said already?  Gis k'a hoixs on the railway side.  And then you referred to An jam Ian?  Yes.  This is on the railway side.  Who owns Gis k'a hoixs and An jam Ian?  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  VOICE:  Gis  7  THE  COURT:  8  MR.  GRANT:  9  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  MR.  GRANT:  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q 1226  Well, there's a village there  clan there.  Mm-hmm.  Which two clans were  Frogs and Giskaast.  And you know where the fishin  hoixs is?  That's the same one.  Is that where the village was  Yes.  And who owns that fishing sit  Well, Hak'w is supposed to.  And An jam Ian?  Well, that's Alayst.  He's in Hak'w's House?  They got their own House.  Okay.  Going -- we're going  now.  The last one you gave u  was An kii is.  What is the n  down the river?  Boulder Creek, Tsim gwin elx.  Number 385.  I don't know where 385 is.  location?  No.  It's the one that would  Gis k'a hoixs, Tsim gwin elx  That number again was?  before, and they two  at that village?  g site called Gis k'a  9  e today, which clan?  1 A  2  3 Q  4 A  5 Q  6  7 A  8 Q  9 A  10 Q  11 A  12 Q  13 A  14 Q  15 A  16 Q  17  18  19  20 A  21 VOICE:  22 THE COURT:  23  2 4 MR. GRANT:  25  2 6 THE COURT:  2 7 MR. GRANT:  28 Q    385.  And who owns that site?  29 A    Lelt.  30 Q    Do you know a creek that's called Xsi Gwin yookhl on  31 the highway side?  32 A    Xsi Gwin yookhl?  33 Q    Yeah.  34 A    Haalus.  35 Q    Is there a fishing site there?  36 A    Yes.  37 VOICE:  o go across the river  s on the highway side  ext fishing site going  Is it the next marked  be right across from  That's 399.  3 8 MR. GRANT  3 9 THE COURT  4 0 MR. GRANT  41 Q  42 A  43 Q  44 A  45 Q  46 A  47 Q  That's  Yes?  the one that's upstream.  Who uses that fishing site?  Haalus.  Is there a reason why Haalus  Well,  the House of Haalus i  Okay.  Haalus.  Okay.  Is it a Frog fishing site?  uses that fishing site?  s that. 1227  1 A Yes.  2 Q The last one you gave on the highway side downstream  3 was Xsi gwin yookhl?  4 A Alayst's.  5 Q What is the next fishing site on the highway side  6 then?  7 A This is Alayst's fishing site, Alaysts' fishing  8 site.  Lax wii t'in.  9 VOICE:  Number 378.  10 A There's another one, Lax gonaxhl.  11 VOICE:  377.  12 MR. GRANT:  13 Q Mm-hmm.  Are those close, those sites?  14 A Yes.  15 Q And are they both Alayst's?  16 A Mm-hmm,Yes.  17 Q That's the triangle right across from the An jam Ian  18 triangle?  Is there any other fishing sites between  19 Tsim gwin elx and that Lax wii t'in?  20 A No.  I mentioned those places, Lax wii t'in and  21 Lax gonaxhl.  There's two sites there, gis k'a hoixs  22 and An jam Ian on the highway side.  23 Q Right.  Continuing down the river, are there  24 other --  what is the next fishing site?  25 A An loohl hon.  26 Q Which side of the river is that on?  27 A On the railway side.  28 VOICE:  Number 358.  2 9 MR. GRANT:  30 Q There's a -- do you know where there's an air field  31 down there, an airstrip?  32 A Yes.  33 Q Is An loohl hon near that?  34 A Yes.  35 Q Just for the record, my lord, on the exhibit it says  36 Win golhl hon, and it should be A-n rather than  37 M-i-n?  38 A Well, the man who owns that fishing site is Biis.  39 Q And what House is he in?  40 A Wolf.  41 Q That's the clan which -- who is the head chief?  42 A Ax dii hix.  43 Q And is that the same House as Tenim gyet?  44 A Yes.  45 Q Was there a village anywhere in this area, a Gitksan  46 village?  47 A There is, there is before. 122?  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  MR.  GRANT  34  35  THE  COURT  36  37  MR.  GRANT  38  Q  39  40  A  41  MR.  GRANT  42  43  44  THE  COURT  45  46  A  47  THE  COURT  What was the name of the village?  An loohl hon.  Was it near to where the airstrip is?  Yes.  What is the next fishing site going down the river?  Wilson Creek on the railway side.  Do you recall the Gitksan name for that Wilson  Creek?  Xswins t'aat.  And do you know the name of the fishing site there?  There's three fishing sites there.  Mm-hmm.  Do you recall the names of them?  You want me to say them?  If you know them, if you can remember them, sure, go  ahead?  Win luu oks hli galps wii yoo is one of the fishing  sites there.  Okay.  Could you just say that word again, please?  Win luu oks hli galps wii yoo.  Is this site -- are these sites close to the mouth  of the creek?  Yes.  Is there -- do you recognize the name Miinhl am  k'oxs?  Miinhl am k'oxs, yes.  Is that one of the names that you -- one of the  sites?  Yes.  It's right at the mouth of the creek?  It is.  It's on the highway side.  They call it Gwin  ax woowax, right across from the airport, that's  gwin ax woowax.  Do you have that spelling?  Could you give it to the  court, please.  I'm sorry.  I don't know what it is that the witness  has described and which is about to be spelled.  There's the fishing site right across from Woodcock  on the highway side which is called this name?  Gwin ax woowax.  It's not on the map, my lord, that site.  It's right  across from the airfield from Woodcock, as I  understand.  I see, there's Woodcock up there.  This is on the  highway side across from the airfield?  Yep.  All right. 1229  1  MR.  GRANT  2  THE  TRANS  3  MR.  GRANT  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  MR.  GRANT  23  THE  TRANS  24  MR.  PLANT  25  26  THE  COURT  27  28  MR.  PLANT  29  VOICE:  X  30  THE  COURT  31  32  MR.  GRANT  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  GRANT  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  47  :  Go ahead with the spelling.  LATOR:  G-w-i-n a-x, underlined, w-o-o-w-a-x.  Going downstream from Wilson Creek, can you describe  the fishing sites downstream of Wilson Creek?  It's Ax dii hix fishing site on the railway side.  They all belong to Ax dii hix?  Yes.  What about on the highway side, that area?  Yeah.  Yeah, that I mentioned on the Gwin ax woowax.  Yes.  And if you go past, you know where Cedarvale  is?  Yes.  If you go below Cedarvale?  Frogs, Ax goot.  I'm sorry?  Ax goot.  Where is that located?  Is that near a creek?  Yes.  What's the name of the creek?  Xsi miinhl ska'nist.  :  Just a moment, my lord.  LATOR:  407.  :  May I have the spelling of the fishing site name and  the creek?  :  I don't know if we've been given a name for the  site.  Just a creek at the moment.  :  I thought I heard a word Ax goot.  si miinhl ska'nist is 407.  :  Well, is that the name that's on the map for the  creek?  No, it's —  It looks quite different.  Yes.  Which side of the river is this on, the  railway side or highway side?  Highway side.  And is this quite near to Cedarvale?  Yes.  Would it be above Cedarvale or below it, towards  Terrace?  No.  Between Kitwanga and Cedarvale.  And that's -- that  creek, my lord, is not labeled on this map.  I  believe it's -- well, I'm not going to -- I don't  have a map that has that creek labeled on it.  Can  you give the name of that site again that's at that 1230  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  GRANT  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  33  MR.  GRANT  34  35  36  37  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  GRANT  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  MR.  GRANT  46  THE  COURT  47  creek?  It's Ax goot fishing site.  Okay.  Ax goot fishing site?  Ax goot.  That's who owns it?  Yes.  Do you recall the name of the site?  Xsi miinhl ska'nist, like the creek.  It's got the same name as the creek?  Yes.  But I don't know where it is, Mr. Grant.  Okay.  Now, is this close to Cedarvale?  Yes.  At Cedarvale there's a little store and there's a  creek beside the store?  Well, you're talking about across the river.  I'm  talking to -- I mean highway side.  You're talking about the highway side?  Yes.  Okay.  Do you recall the store at Cedarvale on the  highway side, the little gas station and restaurant?  Oh, yeah, that's --  And there's a little creek?  Yeah.  Little creek right beside that little cafe.  And is that the creek we're talking of?  Yes.  And, my lord, what that would do is place it, if you  see Cedarvale marked on the railway side, if you  went across --  What do you mean, what do you mean, what do you say  then.  Railway?  No.  It's on the highway side.  Yeah, it's okay.  I'm giving the court a bit of  directions.  Don't worry, I'm just trying to clarify  the map, okay.  If you go across, there's a little  island with a little causeway on it, but probably  just above that would be the approximate location.  Of the creek?  Of the creek, yes.  It's not marked on the map.  And  this fishing site is right at that creek?  Yes.  On the Skeena?  Yes.  Okay.  I don't have -- I don't know if the record shows the  name of the creek or the name of the fishing site. 1231  1 MR. GRANT  2 THE COURT  MR.  GRANT  Q  9  10  11  12 MR.  A  GRANT  13 MR. PLANT  14 MR. GRANT  15 MR. PLANT  16 MR. GRANT  17 THE TRANSLATOR  18 MR. GRANT:  19 Q  20 A  21 Q  22 A  23 Q  24  25 A  26 Q  27 A  28 Q  29 A  30 VOICE:  401  31 MR. GRANT:  32 Q  33  34 A  35 Q  36 A  37 Q  38 A  39 Q  40 A  41 Q  42 A  43 Q  44 A  45 VOICE:  Number 373  4 6 MR. GRANT:  47        Q    Okay.  The creek's name is number 407 on the tab 19.  Yes.  And the witness has described the owner of the  fishing site, she has not given the name of the  fishing site, she has not given the name of the  fishing site, but I asked you if there was a name  for the fishing site and you said "Well, it's the  creek".  Is the name of the fishing site the same as  the name of the creek?  Yes.  Okay.  May I have the name of the owner?  The spelling,  Yes, please.  Could you give the name and the spelling, please?  Ax goot, A-x, underlined, g, underlined o-o-t.  And what clan is he in?  Ax goot?  Frog.  And what House?  Wiihlengwax.  Continuing downstream from Cedarvale, what is the  next fishing site?  It is Mosquitoe Creek.  What's the name of that site?  They call that Mosquitoe Creek, the fishing site.  What's the Gitksan word for that creek?  Xsi gwin Biyosxw.  401?  Is that on the railway side or the highway  side?  On the railway side.  And who owns that site?  Lelt.  Of the Frog clan?  Yes.  Ganeda?  Yes.  What is the next site going downstream?  Gwin watsx.  Is that on the railway side?  On the highway side.  And who owns that site? 1232  1 A Wii hlengwax.  2 Q Is that across from what's known as Porcupine Creek?  3 A Yes.  4 Q And on the map it's labeled Quill Creek, my lord, on  5 the railway side.  And is there a fishing site at  6 Porcupine Creek?  7 A Yes.  8 Q What's it called?  9 A The same, Xsi gwin axwt.  10 Q It's the same as the creek name?  11 A Yes.  12 Q And who owns that site?  13 A Eagle.  14 VOICE:  Number 402.  15 MR. GRANT: Are you following, my lord?  16 THE COURT: I think so, but I'm far from certain, but I think I  17 am.  18 MR. GRANT: Okay.  There's a creek named — it's on the map,  19 it's Quill Creek.  20 THE COURT: Oh, I have that, yes.  21 MR. GRANT:  22 Q You have that, okay.  Is there any fishing sites at  23 a creek called Xsi ansi gant?  24 A Oh, Xsi ansi gant.  25 Q Yes?  26 A Yes.  27 Q Which side of the river is that site at?  28 A Highway side.  29 THE COURT: Is that Quill Creek?  3 0 MR. GRANT: Yes.  31 VOICE:  406.  32 MR. GRANT:  33 Q And who owns that creek, or who owns that fishing  34 site?  35 A Eagle.  36 Q Going further downstream from --  37 A Guxw tsa'lixsit.  38 Q Is that on the railway side or the highway side?  39 A On the railway side.  40 VOICE:  That's 374.  41 A That's Wii seeks fishing site and An sgeexs House.  42 MR. GRANT:  43 Q Is that the Eagle —  44 A Yes.  45 Q As well?  46 A Yes.  47 MR. GRANT:   Continuing downstream — 1233  1 THE COURT:  I haven't found that one, I'm sorry.  Okay, my lord.  If you have Quill Creek and the site  there as you just follow the river down along the  railway side, you'll see a triangle again on the  railway side, and that's the next site that's marked  on the map.  All right.  What was its number, please?  374.  It's just below that fold.  Continuing down  the creek from Guxw tsa'lixsit, what is the next  fishing site?  Ligii 'nihla fishing site there.  Whose?  Ligii 'nihla.  And do you know the name of the site?  Yes.  It's -- that place is Sxi gin k'aat.  And is that the name of the creek where the site is?  Yes.  Okay.  My lord, that's the last triangle on that  20 side of the river.  21 VOICE:  Number 403.  22 MR. GRANT:  Just before I proceed, what side of the river is  that site on?  On the railway side.  Okay.  Do you know a creek that's known as Lome  Creek?  An sgeexs.  And is there a fishing site at that creek?  Yes.  Whose is that?  Hak'w.  Do you recall the name of that fishing site?  Well, it's the same name.  The same as the creek?  Yep, Xsi An sgeexs.  2  MR.  GRANT  3  4  5  6  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  Q  0  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  MR.  GRANT  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  36  37 VOICE:  That's number 359.  THE COURT:  It says here Gitskalst(?)?  3  3 9 MR  40  41  42  GRANT:  Q  A  4 3 THE COURT:  44  4 5 MR. GRANT:  46  47  The witness' evidence is it's the same as the creek  was called, Xsi an sgeexs.  Xsi an sgeexs.  I don't know how I'm supposed to record this.  There  are two different names given here.  Well, I my guess on thatparticular one is cross off  that name and put Xsi an sgeexs right on that.  I'll  do it in red. 1234  THE COURT:  All right.  Is there a number for that, please?  MR. GRANT:  Xsi an sgeexs, is there a number for it?  VOICE:  Number 359.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  MR. GRANT:  I'm marking this on the exhibit itself.  THE COURT:  All right.  Are you going to go back up the river,  Mr. Grant?  You see, we've missed some.  8 MR. GRANT:  Yeah.  I may be going back up the river.  9 THE COURT:  Should we do that now or after lunch.  10 MR. GRANT:  I just wanted to ask her one question and then maybe  11 we can adjourn.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. GRANT:  Q    The last site you gave on the railway side was Xsi  gwin k'aat?  A    Xsi gwin k'aat.  Q    Okay.  Do the Gitksan own other fishing sites below  Xsi gwin K'aat?  A    On the railway side.  Q    Where, at Xsi gwin k'aat?  A    Mm-hmm, yes.  Q    What was the name of the village?  A    Well, that's the same.  Q    Xsi gwin k'aat?  A    Xsi gwin k'aat.  MR. GRANT:  Okay.  This may be an appropriate time to adjourn.  MR. PLANT:  Before we do, my lord, I think that when the witness  first identified that site she called it Ligii  'nihla site, or some word that I was unable to --  Which one, Xsi gwin k'aat?  Yes.  Do you want to give a spelling for that name?  L-i-g-i-i apostrophe n-i-h-1-a.  h-l-a?  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  THE  GRANT  PLANT  COURT  THE TRANSLATOR:  THE COURT:  N-i  THE TRANSLATOR  MR. GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  A, yes,  MR. GRANT:  THE COURT:  And that Ligii 'nihla is in the Eagle Clan?  Yes.  Which clan lived at the village Xsi gwin k'aat?  Xsi gwin k'aat is Eagles.  Okay.  It may be an appropriate time.  All right.  One other thing before we adjourn,  just wanted to -- going back, I found Kitwanga  the map here, I think.  If you see An kii is on the highway side and  Kitwanga I.R. 1, Kitwanga underneath.  It says Kitwanga I.R. 2.  Is that where the bridge  I  on 1235  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  The  know if  across  copies  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  is across the river?  If the Court wishes I can mark it on the map.  Court has where the bridge is approximately?  All right, thank you.  If you could, please.  There's a line across the river, but I don't  it's supposed to be the bridge or not.  And what I've done is draw two parallel lines  in red, and I'll do the same with my friend's  as well.  That's the present highway bridge?  That's the location of the bridge across the Skeena  River at the highway.  Yeah.  And I say this is only approximate in the sense that  there's a road -- there's a dotted line like a road  going down, and I think that was changed, but that's  approximately where it is.  All right.  Should we come back at 1:30?  Fine, my lord.  Thank you.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court stands adjourned  until 1:30.  (LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT TAKEN AT 12:35)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein transcribed to the  best of my skill and ability  Graham D. Parker  Official Reporter  United Reporting Service Ltd.  COURT:  GRANT:  COURT:  GRANT:  COURT  GRANT  COURT 1236  1  (  2  3  4  THE REGIST  5  6  THE  COURT:  7  8  EXAMINATION  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  MR.  GRANT:  19  THE  COURT:  20  21  MR.  GRANT  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  GRANT  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  THE  COURT  37  MR.  GRANT  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  GRANT  40  THE  COURT  41  MR.  GRANT  42  Q  43  44  45  46  A  47  MR.  GRANT  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO THE LUNCHEON  ADJOURNMENT AT 1:30 P.M.)  IAR:  Order in court,  still under oath.  Mr. Grant?  Witness, I remind you you are  IN CHIEF CONTINUED BY MR. GRANT:  You said earlier that in the area of Wilson Creek  that was Ax dii hix fishing sites?  Yes.  And are there a number of fishing sites on both  sides of the river?  Yes.  And is that Ax dii hix and Tenimgyet the same House  or different?  Yes, the same House.  My lord —  I haven't found Wilson Creek yet.  I found it this  morning.  Okay.  It is up above Cedar --  Yes.  I have it, thank you.  My lord, I intend to ask witnesses from that House  with respect to those specific fishing sites so I am  not going to pursue that further right now.  Now, I'd like to refer the fishing sites that the  witness referred to on Friday.  I intend not to go  through all of them again, but I intend to go  through a select few, particularly the witness' own  sites, as to the meaning of those names and the  reason just as to exemplify it and I can advise the  Court that at tab 19, after the names are meanings  of the names.  I just want to ask the witness a few  of those names.  That map is where again?  It was -- the map was at tab 5.  Yes, okay.  And the names and meanings are at tab 19.  Thank you.  And I would, as I say, I am not going to go through  all of them.  One of the fishing sites that you said was  Hanamuxw's was An si bilaa?  An si bilaa.  What does that mean? 1237  1 THE  2  3 THE  4 MR.  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23 THE  2 4 MR.  25 THE  26  27  2 8 MR.  29  30  31 MR.  32 THE  33 THE  34  35 MR.  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  INTERPRETER:  The rocks at that site, they look like abalone  shells.  Number 348.  VOICE  GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  And is that the way the rocks look today?  Not any more.  After the 1936 and they all changes  there.  That was the flood in 1936?  Yes.  Now, I will return to ask you the history of that  site, the recent history of that site.  Another site  that you said was yours was Gwin ap?  Gwin ap.  361 on tab 19.  What does that name mean?  Well, it is like lot of people there and they noisy;  that's why; looks like a bee, sounds like a bee,  Gwin ap.  And another fishing site of Hanamuxw, 362, was Gwin  di sahasxw?  Gwin di sahasxw.  What does that name mean?  Well, Interpreter.  INTERPRETER:  When you pull somebody over towards you.  GRANT:  And why was it given that name?  INTERPRETER:  When there is a lot of fish somebody would  pull the fish over and that's what they mean by Gwin  di sahasxw.  A  Q  A  GRANT:  Q  A  GRANT:  Another site of yours is Win xsidahix?  Win xsidahix.  And what does that name mean?  That's where we get throw up that fat.  INTERPRETER:  COURT:  I am sorry?  A    Throw up fat.  GRANT:  Q    That is where we get throw up the fat?  A    Where we get throw up the fat.  Q    Now, you heard Mrs. Johnson refer to history of  Wiigyet fishing site where belonging to Antgulilbix?  A    Yes, the same man.  Q    And there is a story behind that about this site?  A    Yes.  Q    Is that story considered an Adaawk or an  Ant'imahlasxw?  A    Well, that's Ant'imahlasxw.  Q    And you know that story?  A    Yes. 123?  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  THE  COURT  7  A  8  MR.  GRANT  9  Q  10  A  11  12  MR.  GRANT  13  14  THE  VOICE  15  MR.  GRANT  16  17  THE  trans:  18  MR.  GRANT  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  MR.  GRANT  26  THE  INTER  27  28  MR.  GRANT  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  THE  COURT  38  MR.  GRANT  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  45  46  47  Just a moment, my lord.  You described another  fishing site of yours Wilsa k'awts?  That's when they pick the wild roots there.  The wild roots?  Yes.  Wild roots or wild rose?  Wild roots.  Roots?  There is another, call it k'awts.  Gitksan language,  it is k'awts.  That would use carrots.  So Gitksan, it is k'awts and the white people may  use it as carrots.  Number 387.  That's the name of the site.  You have the other  names, the names that she gave.  rOR:  Yes.  I wrote them down.  And you referred to another name, this is right at  the top on the railway side, it is 389, my lord, Win  'yaga gidax, as one of your fishing sites?  Yeah.  That's across the river.  Yes.  What's that name mean?  Win 'yaga gidax.  Yes.  3TER:  Somebody asks question from up above.  They  ask if they caught any fish in the fish trap.  Another fishing site, this is 346 on the list, my  lord, from page one.  Another fishing site you  referred to is An gildipyee?  That's Mool'xan's fishing site.  Okay.  What does that site -- that name mean?  That's -- you mean that CN bridge, An gildepyee.  What does that name mean?  Well, there is -- walk around it, An gildepyee.  Where there is water around it.  Where you walk around it?  Yes.  Where you walk around.  Now, I'd like to have the exhibit for  identification 29.  I refer you to tab 19 from the  words numbered from 345 to 397 inclusive.  Do you  recall going through these words in Exhibit 29 with  myself and checking that the meaning of the words as  it is listed here? 1239  THE  MR.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16 MR.  17  18  19 THE  2 0 MR.  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33 THE  34 MR.  35  36  37 THE  38 THE  39 THE  4 0 MR.  41  42  43  44  45  4 6 MR.  47 THE  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  COURT:  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  GRANT:  COURT  GRANT  Q  THE  MR.  An gildepyee.  Yes.  There are many fishing sites listed here?  Yeah.  You reviewed them with myself last week?  Yes.  And those meanings were correct?  Yes.  That's 345 to the end.  No, 345, my lord, to 397 inclusive.  But you reviewed all the meanings of these words  and you had them translated?  Yeah.  I read them out to you and you corrected them?  Yeah, okay.  Okay.  I'd ask that those be marked as well, that  is, an exhibit, my lord, exhibit for identification.  We will deal with it later.  Yes, all right.  Now, a few of those words I'd just like to ask you  about.  One of them was the fishing sites at  Andimaul which was on the map, Exhibit 31 for  Identification, referred to An luu oo'la?  A   An luu oo'la.  Q    What does that name mean?  Number 351, my lord.  A    Did you understand?  INTERPRETER:  The rope that is left over from the fish trap  is wrapped around and stashed.  A    Put it on.  GRANT:  The rope that is left from the fish trap is put  around and stashed?  INTERPRETER:  Wrapped and stashed.  GRANT:  Q    What is it stashed in?  What's it put in?  A   An luu oo'la.  INTERPRETER:  That's where you stash things.  COURT:  In a catch?  INTERPRETER:  Mm-hmm.  GRANT:  Q    Now, was there a fish trap at Andimaul?  Were there  fish traps used at Andimaul?  A    The railway side?  Q    Yes?  A    Yeah.  They use for spring, and you talking about --  GRANT:  Yes.  Were fish traps, if you wish --  INTERPRETER:  Yes, they do. 1240  1  MR.  GRANT  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  THE  COURT  9  10  THE  INTER  11  THE  COURT  12  THE  INTER  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  GRANT  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  A  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Q  Did you see --  So mixed up.  It's okay.  Yeah.  I seen that, you know.  The old people keep  that trap.  It was there when I was small; still  there.  What is that word that she just said?  She said,  "when I was small" and then she used another word.  3TER:  It is still there.  It is still there?  3TER:  Yeah.  Thank you.  Would you say it is the fishing trap that was there  when you were small?  Yes.  Is it there today?  No.  I'd like to ask you some questions about the  fishing, the laws of the Gitksan regarding the  fishing.  Can a person use the fishing site of  another House?  Yes.  The permission -- they ask their permission to  use and they call it duubin.  That's the word for asking the permission?  Yeah.  That's to use a fishing site?  Duubin.  Do people from other Houses use Hanamuxw's fishing  sites today?  Yes.  Is that part of -- is there a reason why you let  those people use the fishing sites or Hanamuxw lets  them use the fishing sites?  Because we didn't use it and let them use it for --  then they might need it, you know.  The fish  using -- will let them use it but Hanamuxw was still  owns that fishing site.  And those are the ones you have described Friday and  today?  Yes.  As Hanamuxw's?  Now, you went to a fishing site I  believe with your Grandmother, you described  earlier?  Oh, yeah.  Which fishing site did you go and stay with your 1241  1  2  A  3  MR.  GRANT  4  THE  VOICE  5  MR.  GRANT  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  Q  20  A  21  THE  COURT  22  23  24  MR.  GRANT  25  Q  26  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  MR.  GRANT  45  THE  TRANS  46  MR.  GRANT  47  THE  VOICE  Grandmother at?  That's Gwin di sahasxw, right across from Gwin ap.  Right across from Gwin ap.  362 and 361.  And did you see your Grandfather or your  Grandmother, how they fished at Gwin di sahasxw?  How did they fish when you were young there?  When they drying the fish, there is a smokehouse.  Did they use a net there?  Oh, yes.  Was it always the Chief who did the fishing or other  people in the House?  Well, the other people, but my Grandmother didn't  want to bother young people.  That's the reason why  they were always go to the smokehouse by themselves,  but the rest of the family on the highway side is  Gwin ap.  Yes?  Yeah.  :  I don't know what her answer is, Mr. Grant.  You  asked whether the Chief does the fishing or someone  else and I am not sure what her answer is.  Okay.  I think I understand it.  Maybe I could  lead -- clarify it.  You said your Grandmother  fished at Gwin di sahasxw, the site across from Gwin  ap?  Yes.  And she was Hanamuxw?  Mm-hmm.  Then you said other members at the site -- on the  other member's site?  Yes.  Gwin ap, that's nephews and nieces go there,  Gwin ap.  How did you get to the fishing site at Gwin di  sahasxw when you went there with your Grandmother?  Well, the ones from Gwin ap, they used to go across  and get the fish and Gwinsi dii and Wilsa k'awts,  they use.  But only three fishing site the  Grandmother used on the other site, Win Xsidahix and  Gwin di sahasxw, and An si bilaa on the highway  side.  :  Did you get those, Madam Interpreter?  LATOR:  Some of them.  :  Can you read them?  :  I can read them out but not necessarily in the same 1242  1  2  MR.  GRANT  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  MR.  GRANT  12  THE  TRANS  13  MR.  GRANT  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  MR.  GRANT  20  THE  VOICE  21  MR.  GRANT  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  order.  Your Grandmother used or did your Grandmother use  Wilsa k'awts?  The people from Gwin ap, they use it.  That's 387, and Gwin ap is 361, and Win Xsidahix?  Win Xsidahix.  That was the people from the other side that used  it?  Yeah.  :  That's —  LATOR:  38 8.  388.  And you already described Gwin di sahasxw,  that was the one that your Grandmother used?  Yes, and I gave that An si bilaa.  And the second last one was 389?  Yes.  An si bilaa.  348.  Those last three sites were used by your  Grandmother?  Yes.  Now, when Mary Johnson gave evidence, she described  the event of the snowfall at Tarn lax amit and talked  about somebody having a spring salmon, and I think  they said something to the mountain or to the sky  and then it started to snow; they mocked the snow?  Yes.  And you're familiar with that history?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, is there an event called, which could be  translated as the first salmon ceremony?  Oh, yes.  And is that what that young man was involved in at  that time?  Well, they deliver the cooked fish and they take the  cooked fish and they show it to the creator and  that's the springtime, and that night when it is  snowing and there is everything destroyed.  Have you seen this first salmon ceremony?  Oh, yeah.  Yourself?  That's what my Grandmother always do that.  Can you tell the Court what was done with that first  salmon that was caught? 1243  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  3 0 MR.  GRANT  31 THE  TRANS  32 MR.  GRANT  33 THE  COURT  34  35 MR.  GRANT  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  They cover the spring salmon with a mat.  Mm-hmm?  And they used fireweed, you know, on the top.  They  put it over the spring salmon and the next day --  and they cut it up and cooked it and they would send  out, you know, like the Village taste no matter how  small it is but that's tradition.  Now, you said they put the fireweed from on top of  the fireweed.  Is this the fluffy part of the  fireweed?  Yes.  Why would they put that on top of the first spring  salmon?  Well, they talk to the creator for that.  They ask  more.  They be plenty fish to be plenty in the  summertime.  That's the reason why it is there.  When you say it was shared out in the Village, was  it shared out -- for example, if Hanamuxw caught the  first spring salmon, would it only go to the  Giskaast or the Fireweed or would it go to the Frog?  It doesn't matter.  To all the people?  All the people from the Village.  Is the first salmon still shared like this in  Kitsequkla?  Some of them, not all of them.  Have you yourself received part of the first salmon  catch this year?  Well, that's what Gwis gyen was doing.  :  Gwis gyen.  LATOR:  Number 22.  :  That's Stanley Williams.  :  22.  What about him?  I am sorry, I didn't catch  what you said about him.  The Court doesn't know what he was doing?  Well, that's what they doing.  You know, the time he  got fish in there, amxsiwaa, they leave it out, the  fresh fish they got down there.  So did he give you fish this year?  Oh, yes.  Just this weekend he gave you fish?  Mm-hmm.  And that's part of this sharing of the first salmon  catch, is it?  Yes.  In your presence or to your knowledge did your 1244  1  2  3  4  5  A  6  7  8 MR.  GRANT  9  10 THE  COURT  11  12  13  14  15 MR.  GRANT  16  Q  17  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  4 7 MR.  GRANT  Grandmother Hanamuxw or Jeffrey Johnson ever agree  to allow the Government of Canada regulate their  fisheries?  You don't understand.  Would you  translate the question?  Well, Jeffrey don't agree with the Fishery so my  Grandmother and all the rest of the people today,  they don't agree with that.  Has your daughter Hanamuxw agreed to let the  Government of Canada regulate Hanamuxw's fishery?  Is that a question that this witness can answer, Mr.  Grant?  Hanamuxw is alive and, apart from a broken  arm I understand she suffered recently, she is able  to give evidence.  How can this witness say what her  daughter might or might not have done?  Yes.  I should rephrase the question.  Have you been  involved in any decision by your House to let the  Government of Canada regulate your fishery?  Let me  rephrase it.  Have you agreed to let the Government  of Canada regulate Hanamuxw -- your fishery?  I should say no.  You talked just a few moments ago about fish traps  at Andimaul and you said you saw these fish traps?  Yes.  Is this trap what is known as a benna?  Is there a  name for the type of fish trap that you saw in  Gitksan?  Oh, you talking about benna.  Benna?  Yeah.  Benna?  I thought it was benna.  Talking about benna?  Yeah.  And did you see those fish traps?  Yes.  I am showing you a photograph.  Do you see a benna  in that photograph?  Benna.  Can you point it out what the benna is?  Benna supposed to be in the water here.  Supposed to be in the water but in this photo it  isn't.  Can you point out what the benna is?  Supposed to be right here.  Is that it?  Mm-hmm.  I'd ask that this be marked as an exhibit, the next 1245  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  9 MR. PLANT  10  11  12 MR  GRANT:  13  14  15  16  17  18 THE  19 MR.  20  21 THE  22  2 3 MR.  24  2 5 MR.  2 6 MR.  27  28  29  30  31  32  exhibit, my lord, and I would mark with an X where  the benna is where she pointed.  COURT:  Mr. Plant, no problem?  MACAULAY:  I have no objection, my lord.  COURT:  All right.  Exhibit?  REGISTRAR:  Thirty-two, thank you.  GRANT:  And I would ask if that exhibit could be marked or  referred to as a photograph of the --  I think that, if I might interrupt, should be  identified at this point as photograph of benna.  I  take it that's what my friend is going to ask for.  I would ask that it be marked as it is on the back  which is a description from the Provincial Archives  because it will be referred to in the evidence of  other witnesses led by Mr. Rush.  That's all.  This  witness isn't going to identify where it is or  anything.  It is just a matter of --  I am not sure what the subject of controversy is.  There is no subject of controversy.  The witness has  identified one small object.  She says the photograph shows a benna.  Mr. Grant  wants to add something to the title.  Yes.  That's all I want to do is add it to the  title.  I have no objection to that.  Ask photograph of a benna near the bridge at  Moricetown.  (EXHIBIT 32 - PHOTOGRAPH OF BENNA NEAR BRIDGE AT  MORICETOWN)  COURT:  PLANT:  COURT:  GRANT:  PLANT:  GRANT:  MR.  GRANT: Now, could you describe for the Court --  33 THE COURT: I am sorry, is benna, b-e-n-a?  34 THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  It is two n's.  35 MR. GRANT: I have a copy of it for the Court.  3 6 THE COURT: Thank you.  37 MR. GRANT:  38 Q Can you tell the Court, you saw the benna being used  39 at Andimaul; is that right?  40 A Yes.  41 Q Can you tell the Court how a benna worked, how is a  42 fish caught with that?  43 A Exactly the same on that picture there.  4 4        Q Mm-hmm?  45 A There is a pole to hold that benna in the water.  46 Q There is a pole to hold it in the water?  47 A Yeah, and there is a man there.  Yuusxw they call 1  2  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  1246  it, call on the pole and the fish was in that benna  and they close that, you know, and took the fish out  of the water.  Well, from the photograph, that appears to be a  circular type of basket?  Yeah.  This is the pole holding the basket in the  water.  You are pointing to the angled pole behind the man  standing right behind by the river?  Mm-hmm, or this one I guess.  Or the other one?  Yeah, they use two.  Is the opening the same as is the size of this  basket the same at both ends?  Yeah, the mouth is open.  You indicated the mouth is open like this?  Yes, and the hole is -- hole in that in the water.  They call it yuusxw.  And is the other end of it closed?  Closed, yeah.  How many fish could be caught in a benna?  Just one, just one.  Did your Grandfather use this while you were alive?  Sometimes.  There is -- sure.  They show the young  people how to use that benna.  That's the reason why  they use it, showing the young people, young boys to  handle that thing.  What were they made out of?  That's leek, they call it.  I don't know what the  white man calls it; looks like a fireweed but it is  not the fireweeds.  And they pick it in the fall in  September and they dried it and it is what the  woman, they work on in wintertime.  And what were they -- was it tied together or --  Well, they leek.  What they call it gyaaxw, when  they make a thread like and that's what they used;  really, really strong like nylon.  Is that made out of cedar?  No, no.  That's what they use, the leek, just like a  fireweed.  Okay.  That's what they tied with, too?  Yeah, that's what they used.  Peter Johnson, your Grandfather was, you have  described, from Gwashlam's House in Kitwancool?  Yes.  Did you see him fishing in the Kitwancool area?  Yes. 1247  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  MR.  GRANT  13  14  THE  COURT  15  16  MR.  GRANT  17  THE  COURT  18  19  MR.  GRANT  20  21  22  23  24  THE  COURT  25  A  26  MR.  GRANT  27  THE  COURT  28  MR.  GRANT  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  THE  INTER  44  A  45  THE  INTER  46  47  MR.  GRANT  How would he fish at Kitwancool Lake?  They put my -- that's my Grandfather's brother, his  name is Richard Doust, and they used to go there and  they put that little canoe in that creek and the  fish will jump, you know, when you go to the lake.  And it is no time when -- when that canoe is full of  fish, and they take it away from the place and take  the fish out.  Did they put the canoe in the lake or in the creek?  In the creek.  But near the lake.  Did you see your Grandfather or others at Kitwancool  using hooks in the river to catch fish?  I am sorry.  Did you not mention Kitwancool Lake a  moment ago?  Yes.  We are now talking about something different than a  moment ago, you said the river.  Maybe I have to read the transcript myself.  Talking  about, would put the canoe in the creek near  Kitwancool Lake, that's what she just described.  I  asked if it was in the creek or the lake and she  said it was in the creek at the lake.  Are we talking about fishing in Kitwancool Lake?  Yes.  That's where the canoe was used.  Thank you.  Now, I am referring to Kitwancool River, thank you.  Did you see your Grandfather or others use hooks for  fishing in Kitwancool River?  They use it in the lake, yeah.  And were they made of wood or --  Yes.  -- or metal?  Yes, red cedar.  Red cedar?  Yes.  How was -- what did your Grandmother use to cut the  fish when they were caught?  What did she use for a  knife?  They use that ha k'ohla.  3TER:  Something to get the fish with.  Ha k'ohla they call it.  3TER:  It is called ha k'ohla, something used to cut  the fish with. there.  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  1248  Do you recall what they were made of?  Can't remember.  Mussell.  Mussell, mussell shells?  Mm-hmm, yes.  Did you see those?  Yes.  Now, I wanted to ask you, you referred on Friday to  some of the fishing sites that you say were  destroyed.  Now, the evidence you have given about  the location of fishing sites, you were told where  different people owned fishing sites by your  Grandmother?  Yes.  And you were -- did she teach you about fishing  sites that had been destroyed?  Yes.  Did she tell you where those fishing sites were?  Yes.  That's what she did, and the CN bridge across  the Skeena, there is three across the river, that's  Gwis gyen fishing site.  Yes?  There are three of them but they didn't mention the  name because they are not using it anymore.  I just want to try to assist the Court as to where  they are.  Are those right at where the bridge is or  are they across from the Village, those three sites?  That's on the highway side right below the bridge.  That's three fishing sites were destroyed  Right below the CN bridge across the Skeena?  Yes.  Did your Grandmother tell you of Hanamuxw's fishing  sites destroyed?  Two of them lost in Gwin ap.  And that's where Gwin ap was?  Did she tell you of any of Xsgogim lax ha?  Sites are underneath the bridge there.  That's the CN bridge?  Yes.  Was there a name for that site?  Well, there is -- when they destroyed it, they never  mentioned the name but there still fishing site  there, but it is not -- the fish can't go there  because there is too many rocks and the cement was  there, you know, and the fish not use it anymore.  That was when the CN bridge was put in, was it?  Yes.  What about the fishing sites of the Hanamuxw at Gwin 1  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  4 0 THE  VOICE  41 MR.  GRANT  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  1249  ap, how were they destroyed?  Well, that's before the riverboat comes up and they  winding the river.  They not the same after, before  the riverboat.  And these two sites, are they able to be used now?  No -- yeah, not used anymore.  So they are different than Gwin ap but they are near  Gwin ap?  Yes.  And Gwis gyen's three sites that you say were  destroyed that were near the bridge, how were they  destroyed?  Before the riverboat comes up.  When they were winding the river for the riverboat?  Yes.  Now, when your mother taught you about the fishing  sites, did she tell you anything about Chiefs  putting markers at those fishing sites, like iron  posts?  Well, that's what they did, you know, and Mr. Loring  was here and then they advised the people to put the  reserve on a fishing site.  Now, did you see iron posts at any of the fishing  sites?  I did see it in my Grandmother's smokehouse.  And was that at -- which fishing site was that?  That's my Grandmother Hanamuxw.  Was that at Gwin di sahasxw?  Yes, Gwin di sahasxw, and I think there was in the  other side of lax wii t'in, that was in -- was still  there -- iron post -- iron post was still there.  And this was the fishing site?  Alayst.  That you identified this morning?  Mm-hmm.  It was the fishing site near Boulder Creek?  Yes.  You saw that iron post there?  Yeah.  378.  I'd like to ask you a little bit more about An si  bilaa?  An si bilaa?  Yeah.  You say that's your fishing site.  How did  Hanamuxw acquire that fishing site?  Well, that 'Niitsxw was killed, you know.  Ha'atxw 1250  1  2  3  MR.  GRANT  4  5  THE  COURT  6  7  MR.  GRANT  8  9  10  THE  COURT  11  MR.  PLANT  12  13  14  MR.  GRANT  15  THE  TRANS  16  17  MR.  GRANT  18  THE  TRANS  19  THE  COURT  20  THE  TRANS  21  THE  COURT  22  THE  TRANS  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  GRANT  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  MR.  GRANT  46  47  MR.  GRANT  was trying -- wanted to marry his sister, 'Niitsxw's  sister.  :  Can you give the spellings of those two names?  They  are not on the list.  :  Before you give that, what site are we talking  about?  :  An si bilaa, 348.  It is on tab 5.  It would be the  first name on the right side of the river, looking  at the map.  :  All right.  :  Also have some ideas of the basis of the witness'  knowledge concerning this.  I take it it happened  before her time?  :  Yes.  Can you give the spellings of those words?  LATOR:  '-N-i-i-t-s-x-w, and I am not too sure about  the second word.  Can I ask her?  :  Yes.  You mentioned, I think it was Ha'atxw.  LATOR:  H-a-'-a-t-x-w.  :  I am sorry, H-a-' --  LATOR:  H-a-'-a-t-x-w.  :  I didn't get the first one.  LATOR:  '-N-i-i-t-s-x-w.  :  What do those words mean?  Those were people's names that she referred to.  Before we proceed, did your Grandmother tell you  about how Hanamuxw acquired An si bilaa?  That's the reason why, they -- I mean the fishing  site.  An si bilaa?  And she taught you that?  Yeah, because they were -- her niece were killed.  That's the reason why Ha'atxw relation to give that  fishing site to Hanamuxw House?  Ha'atxw from --  And he was a Frog?  Yes.  From what House?  Tom Campbell's House.  That was Luutkudziiwas?  Yes.  'Niitsxw was from Hanamuxw's House?  Yes.  You say that Ha'atxw killed 'Niitsxw?  Yes.  :  Are these words the words that we are using that  were words spelled a moment ago?  :  Yes.  They were people's names. 1 THE  COURT  2 MR.  GRANT  3  4 THE  TRANS  5 MR.  GRANT  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  1251  Who killed who?  Ha'atxw killed 'Niitsxw.  You can give the numbers  from Luutkudziiwas.  rOR:  Luutkudziiwas is number 44 and Hanamuxw was 33.  Okay.  Before this killing, did An si bilaa belong  to Luutkudziiwas' House?  Yes.  Did your Grandmother tell you what led to that  killing, why Ha'atxw killed 'Niitsxw?  Well, 'Niitsxw was refused him to marry his sister  and that's the reason why they killed him, Ha'atxw  did.  'Niitsxw refused to let Ha'atxw marry 'Niitsxw's  sister?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, what happened to change after the  killing, what happened?  Well, Gawa gyanii, they make peace so that's the  reason why they give that fishing site to Hanamuxw.  And the Gawa gyanii is a feast for a peace  settlement?  Yes.  Do you -- and you still -- Hanamuxw still holds An  si bilaa?  Yes.  Will that site go back to Luutkudziiwas at any time?  Sometimes when the time coming up and return it to  them.  Why will you return it to them?  Well, that's settled.  All the family will settle  down and they not mad and not angry anymore.  So this settlement of giving this fishing site was  temporary?  Yes.  Now, you said sometime in the future we will give  this back.  Has Hanamuxw and you decided when that  will happen?  Yes.  When will that be?  When the pole raising.  Now, do you recall a xsiisxw or settlement between  Guxsan's House and the Eagle Clan that occurred in  your lifetime?  Yes.  I heard about it.  Were you involved in it as part of Guxsan's wil'na  t'ahl? 1252  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  GRANT  18  19  THE  COURT  20  A  21  22  MR.  GRANT  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  MR.  GRANT  43  THE  TRANS  44  MR.  GRANT  45  Q  46  47  A  Yes.  And can you tell the Court what happened, what you  saw happen?  Well, that's why they were xsiixw killed  Amaayam.  That's the reason why they give Ant tk'al  bakxw and Xsi kalii gajit to Guxsan's House.  I haven't got any --  I understand, my lord.  Amaayam was Walter Wesley?  Yes.  He was a member of the --  Guxsan's House.  -- of Guxsan's House and he was killed by a member  of the Eagle Clan?  Yes.  Who got murdered or killed.  Walter Wesley was killed by a member of the Eagle  Clan.  When was this?  I don't know what year but it is 19 -- I think it is  1957, I think, or '58.  This was -- was this before or after your husband  Phillip died?  Right after Phillip died.  He died in 1957.  So it was right after that?  Yeah.  Now, as a result of that, was there -- you said  there was a Gawa gyanii settlement, they announced  the feast.  David Wells announced this in the feast?  Yes.  And you witnessed this?  Yes.  And what was given?  That's hunting ground there, they call it xsi k'alii  gaj it.  And was -- I think you said earlier this was a  mountain, that it was in the area of a mountain, the  name that you have just given?  Yes.  You have that spelling, madam?  rOR:  Mm-hmm.  And can you describe where that mountain is that was  given for this xsiisxw?  By Richie. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  1253  That's below Kitwanga?  Yes.  On the railway side of the river.  Now, did your  Grandmother teach you about how a Gawa gyaniia could  involve the exchange of --  Boy and a girl.  -- a boy and a girl?  Yeah.  That's how they handle the Gawa gyanii.  Can you tell the Court how it was handled by the  exchange of children?  Well, that's what they do, you know.  They tie the  cedar bark on the waist and they pull in the, you  know, the other is pulling the boy this way and they  pulling the girl in the other side.  So each House would get -- how -- what if -- did you  see that in your lifetime?  No, no.  I am just -- just tell me that.  Did your Grandmother see that?  Well, I think so.  Now, did she tell you, let us say in the case of a  killing, which side would give the boy and which  side would give the girl?  Well, the ones that killing the man, it is a boy.  They give a boy?  Yeah.  Okay.  And the other side there is a girl.  Is eagle down used when there was a Gawa gyanii?  Yes.  Did you see that in your lifetime, the use of eagle  down?  Oh, yeah, yeah.  I'd like to ask you some questions about the type of  plants or what you were taught about the type of  plants that were used for medicines.  Now, did your  grandmother, did she use -- make medicine?  Yes.  And did she use it to help other people like --  Yes.  Some of the other witnesses have referred to devil's  club, the use of devil's club.  Did your Grandmother  use devil's club?  Yes.  Did she use it for when you were young on you?  Mm-hmm, yeah.  Do you still use it?  Yes. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  45  Q  46  47  A  1254  Were waterlily roots used?  Well, that's a medicine too.  And have you seen them being used?  Yes.  Yourself?  What are they used for?  They make medicine out of it.  They boil them and  they they drink it, the ones that sick, yeah.  For what kind of sickness is it used?  Well, any type.  Well, I notice Mrs. Marsden was in  the court today.  That's what she was taking when  she had disease.  That's Mrs. Kathleen Marsden?  Yes.  And she used waterlily root when the she had  disease?  Yes.  This was recent or a long time ago when she was  younger?  Well, she was younger.  Have you heard of a plant which the Gitksan word for  is melgwasxw, and I don't know if there is an  English word for it?  Melgwasxw, yes.  Do you have a spelling of that?  They don't use it for medicine.  They use it for  outside and show that, you know, and they use it  really having their bath and they use it, like, they  just soak it and they touch what they use after  their bath and rub it on the skin.  Do you know about the high bush cranberries?  High bush cranberries.  They are called cranberries?  Well, they make hlaayax out of it; they whip the  oolichan grease and they put the high bush cranberry  in that and they eat it.  So is it used for medicine too?  No.  It is -- that's what they use, yeah.  It is used as a food?  Mm-hmm, yeah.  What about wild celery roots?  Well, they used for when you -- you be aching,  arthritis, and they cook the roots and they pound it  like a paste, and you put it on and put the rocks,  keep the heat in, yeah.  And this is a plant that you've used and that your  Grandmother used?  Yes. 1255  1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  MR.  GRANT  16  THE  COURT  17  A  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  GRANT  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  GRANT  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  THE  TRANS  27  A  28  THE  TRANS  29  30  A  31  MR.  GRANT  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  THE  TRANS  41  42  THE  COURT  43  44  45  MR.  GRANT  46  Q  47  A  Do you know of -- the inner bark of the balsam tree,  is it used for medicine?  That's what they use when someone was hurt and the  flesh was open, and that's where they used, you  know, the -- taking all the infection out.  How was it used that way?  Well, they take the outside bark and then they  white, they roll it and put it in where -- and they  drain everything out.  They put it in the wound?  Yeah.  What about the pitch of the Hemlock tree and the  Jack pine?  Spruce and Jack pine.  The Spruce and the Jack pine?  Not Hemlock.  Not Hemlock.  That's the trouble with leading questions, Mr. --  Yes, yes.  I am just trying to move into the areas.  You moved into the wrong areas.  We will get back to Hemlock later.  The Spruce and  the Jack pine, what is it used for?  When they use the pitch and put it in the -- mix it  with -- they call it -- like I forgot.  LATOR:  They make it into a —  Paste.  LATOR:  Gum, and they put it on the wound.  That takes  out -- that drains it of infection.  Drains.  And that's the Spruce and the Jack pine?  Yes.  Okay.  Is the balsam pitch used like that, too?  That's what I was explain it, you know, what they do  and take the white inside the barks, yes.  Okay.  And are there -- is there a Gitksan word for  this kind of medicine that you used?  Sgyen they call it.  Nax nogim sgyen.  LATOR:  That's gum that's quite -- it is a good  medicine -- good medicine.  :  I don't think that answers your question.  Your  question was, what is the Indian word for this kind  of medicine?  Yeah, and she said sgyen?  She said nax nogim sgyen. 1256  1  THE  TRANS  2  MR.  GRANT  3  THE  TRANS  4  MR.  GRANT  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  GRANT  16  17  18  THE  COURT  19  20  MR.  GRANT  21  Q  22  23  24  25  A  26  MR.  GRANT  27  28  MR.  PLANT  29  30  31  32  33  34  MR.  GRANT  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  THE  COURT  44  45  MR.  PLANT  46  47  MR.  GRANT  LATOR:  She said nax nogim sgyen.  :  You have that?  LATOR:  Mm-hmm.  :  I have been asking you earlier about the fishing  territories and I'd like to ask you some questions  about Hanamuxw's territory, the land territories of  Hanamuxw, and I would refer the Court to tab -- this  is an Exhibit 29, to tab 4 and, once again, my lord,  I want to say for the record that the two maps at  this tab are for the assistance of the Court and I  don't intend to put either of these maps to the  witness but I -- what I would like to put to the  witness.  :  Which one are you looking at first, please?  :  I am looking at the map that has at the top, the  names along the top of it are Hax bagwootxw,  Wiigyet, Xsgogimlaxha, and Guxsan.  :  Yes.  I have it.  This has been called number one in  the -- that should be number one of the two maps.  Now, I have a photograph or two photographs that are  actually together to make a panarama, and I wonder  if you recognize that picture, this is -- this is  Xsu wil luu negwit?  Xsu wil luu negwit and Xsan.  :  I'd ask that that be marked as the exhibit, that be  marked as the next exhibit?  :  Perhaps before it is marked, we could have some idea  of who took these photographs, when they were taken,  what other witness that was there or the usual sort  of questions that one asks before a photograph is  identified.  I didn't see these photographs until  this morning.  :  I wrote to my friend and I advised him that it was  late on Friday when I first knew of the existence of  these photographs and I had them delivered to him  this morning but the photographs were not taken in  the presence of the witness.  They are only there --  these photograph can be marked as an exhibit for  identification and the person who took the  photograph can be later called.  It is a photograph  of the territory and that's --  :  Well, if the witness can identify it as a likeness,  it doesn't matter if she was there or not of course.  :  I also have a concern about when the photograph was  taken.  :  Yes.  I have been instructed the photograph was 1257  1  2  3  THE  COURT:  4  5  MR.  GRANT:  6  THE  COURT:  7  8  MR.  GRANT:  9  THE  COURT:  10  MS.  KOENIGS  11  12  13  MR.  PLANT:  14  15  16  MR.  GRANT:  17  18  19  20  THE  COURT:  21  MR.  GRANT:  22  23  THE  COURT:  24  25  MR.  GRANT:  26  27  THE  COURT:  28  MR.  GRANT:  29  30  31  32  THE  COURT:  33  MR.  GRANT:  34  35  36  37  THE  COURT:  38  39  MR.  GRANT:  40  41  42  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  GRANT  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  GRANT  47  THE  COURT  taken in 1983, and I will be able to provide my  friend with a specific date.  Is it possible to see on the map where this  territory is?  I can point out that territory to the Court.  I'd be glad if you would; north of the river, south  of the river or where are we?  I will do that for the Court on the larger map.  Anything that puts me in contact.  Ms. Koenigsberg?  BERG:  If I could just ask for clarification.  I was  given two photocopies.  I don't know what's been put  in.  And perhaps one more point of clarification.  These  aren't on the plaintiff's list of documents then I  take it?  No.  As I indicated this will be put on obviously a  list and it came to my attention these two  photographs and there is an additional three and  they are not on the list of documents.  All right.  Can I see where this property is?  Yes.  I have another copy of the photograph for the  Court as well.  Show me again where Hazelton is or Smithers or  something?  Yes, my lord.  I will do that.  I just want to get  my bearings.  Here is Hazelton right here.  Yes.  This going down along here and down here, this is  the Skeena River going out there, the heavy darker  line.  Basically there is a lot of markings around  it.  This is Kitsegukla here.  Yes.  This L shaped, it is like a reverse L, is the map  that you are looking at.  It is below Kitsegukla and  the witness will describe where it is in  relationship.  There is another territory between it and  Kitsegukla.  Yes.  There is other territories up here and the  Kitsegukla River flows in through here.  But this is  Kitsegukla on the Skeena right there so this map,  this territory is here.  Where is north on that?  North is up that way.  Well, that -- sorry, if I am having some difficulty.  Yes.  The two norths, if you put the two norths in the 125?  1  2  3  MR.  GRANT  4  THE  COURT  5  6  7  MR.  GRANT  8  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  GRANT  11  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  GRANT  14  THE  REGIS1  15  16  17  18  MR.  GRANT  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  MR.  GRANT  37  38  THE  VOICE  39  MR.  GRANT  40  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  GRANT  43  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  GRANT  46  47  same direction, the N looks backwards, the mirror  image of the L.  No, my lord.  Yeah.  You got me again on the norths.  Yes.  That seems to  fit.  That's better, thank you.  All right.  Thank  you.  Now, I'd like to show you that last exhibit, I think  it is 32 .  Yes.  No, that one there.  I'd ask that these photographs  be marked as the next exhibit?  That's the composite.  That's the composites, two photographs.  Exhibit 35.  REGISTRAR:  Thirty-three.  (EXHIBIT 33 - Two Photographs)  Now, I'd like you to -- you were showing the Court  when you identified it that you knew this  photograph.  Could you point for the Court as to  where the creeks are that are the boundaries of your  territory?  This is.  This is all one continuous photograph here.  Okay.  There is another photograph which has Stakhaiyt on  it.  This is the photograph which had Xsin non?  Oh, yeah, Xsin non.  So there is a ridge in these two photographs and the  creek bottom in the foreground is Xsuwii Luu Negwit  and Xsin non is on the other side of that ridge?  Yes.  Now, the ridge that's in these two photographs,  whose territory is that, that whole ridge?  Part Gwagl'lo, and that's Hanamuxw.  And that's Hanamuxw there.  I just repeated the  answer so you could hear.  Xsuwii Luu Negwit is 422.  What I propose, my lord, is to mark with a one  pointing to where Xsuwii Luu Negwit is.  What is?  And number two, pointing to the -- do you see where  Xsin non is?  Where is Xsin non?  And I will write reference to the Court now to tie  those to the exhibit.  If you look at the map with  the label at the bottom, you see facing the 1259  1  2  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  GRANT  5  Q  6  7  A  8  THE  COURT  9  A  10  MR.  GRANT  11  A  12  MR.  GRANT  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  GRANT  28  29  MR.  PLANT  30  MR.  GRANT  31  THE  COURT  32  33  MR.  GRANT  34  35  36  THE  COURT  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  MR.  GRANT  44  45  46  47  right-hand side, the right-hand boundary, this is  where it is going up and down Xsuwii Luu Negwit?  Yes.  Just go below the name Xsgogimlaxha, you see the --  you see the name Xsin non?  No, that's Hanamuxw.  Xsin non.  Yes.  That's a creek, is it?  Yes.  Xsin non is a creek.  (Nod).  Miss Ryan, I wasn't indicating --  Yeah.  I wasn't indicating it was another territory; I was  just trying to show the Court where it was on the  map?  Yes, I know.  And Xsin non, is that a boundary of your territory?  Yes.  What about Xsuwii Luu Negwit?  The same.  Do you know the name of a mountain known as 'Wii  lo'op?  That's 'Wii lo'op.  W-i-i-1-o-o-p.  Yes.  It is on the map.  You can see it.  It is  angled.  I am sorry, I didn't hear the name, 'Wii lo'op.  Yes.  It is 'Wii lo'op, 'W-i-i-1-o-'-o-p.  Right at the instep.  If this is a boot, it is at  the instep.  I see, my lord.  Is my friend able to tell me where  this montage of photographs was taken from so I  could orient it to the map?  I think, gentlemen, that might be a useful subject  for you to have a discussion about in the  adjournment, and we will take the afternoon  adjournment now.  If it is convenient, I thought we  might sit to 4:30, there is three reporters here  today, but counsel can talk about that and speak  with the witness and speak to the reporters, too.  Yes. 1260  1 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned for 15  2 minutes.  3  4        (RECESS TAKEN AT 3:48 P.M.)  5  6 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  7 a true and accurate transcript of the  8 proceedings herein, transcribed to  9 the best of my skill and ability.  10  11  12  13  14 TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter.  15 United Reporting Service Ltd.  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 xh2 0. Ryan (for Plaintiff) 1261  1  2  REGISTRAR  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  GRANT  5  6  THE  COURT  7  MR.  GRANT  8  9  10  11  12  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  GRANT  15  16  17  18  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  MR.  GRANT  27  28  29  30  THE  COURT  31  32  33  MR.  GRANT  34  35  36  37  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  GRANT  40  THE  COURT  41  MR.  GRANT  42  43  Q  44  45  46  47  A  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 3:05)  Order in court.  Mr. Grant.  Yes, my lord, I have made inquiries and I have the  exhibit for that -- the map is at tab 5.  Map Number 1?  Map Number 1 that we were referring to.  I could put  an X on it in red for the court as to where the  picture was taken from or that -- or those two  pictures were taken from.  And I showed this to  counsel.  Okay.  And what I have done is I've done  two lines going out to sort of show that --  The direction the camera was pointed?  Yes, the general viewing.  And that's the -- that's  the -- for the record that X on that photo or map 1  on tab 4 of Exhibit 29 is the -- shows the viewing  of which Exhibit 3 was taken -- Exhibit 33 was taken  from.  Now, I wish to show you another photograph or  another series of three photographs.  And do you  recognize those photographs?  Stekyoden.  Stekyoden is the mountain here you are referring to?  Yeah.  Gas la 'am, Stak haiyt.  Gas la 'am.  I would ask that this be marked as the  next exhibit, this series of three photographs.  Or  actually it maybe appropriate to mark the previous  exhibit as 33A and this as 33B, my lord.  All right.  (EXHIBIT 33A:  Photographs)  (EXHIBIT 33B: Series of Three Photographs)  For the record, the second name the witness gave is  421, that is the -- there seems to be 421 on page 7  of tab 19.  It's the first of those.  And she gave  the name -- it is also known Tass Holtxwit.  That's  the name, for the record, that was given.  What's the number again?  421.  The first 421 on page 7.  What is that?  What is it that she described?  I was just going to have her point it out to the  court.  The reason I have to bring it back is we just had to  see if you could identify the picture.  Now, you  can  tell the judge what -- what's in the picture.  This is Stekyoden. 1262  1  Q  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  10  MR.  PLANT  11  12  13  14  MR.  GRANT  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  A  23  24  25  Q  26  27  THE  COURT  28  THE  VOICE  29  MR.  GRANT  30  31  THE  TRANS  32  THE  COURT  33  THE  TRANS  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  GRANT  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  MR.  PLANT  45  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  GRANT  Could you point to him where you were referring to  Stekyoden?  There is three pictures:  One on the top  and two on the bottom.  My understanding is the top  picture fits over to the -- goes over to the -- is a  continuation.  Yeah.  This one.  What is it, a mountain?  Yes.  Just one moment.  I will provide one for the  court.  Now, what I will do --  Before you do -- I am sorry to interrupt, my lord,  the witness has identified two features on the  photographs.  I would like to have them -- I would  like to be able to make a note of where they are.  I am going to return to that for sure.  I just  wanted to have it so the witness could see how the  photographs fit together.  The top one is on the top  is on the -- should be on the left-hand side  like this, my lord.  If you can see, the top  photograph should be to the left of the second.  Now, if you see it that way, can you show where  Stekyoden is?  This one.  It's on the right-side Txas lax aatxwit  and there is a boundary line by the creek they call  Xsiluu Saadit.  Now, possibly Mr. Plant was here.  I will put an one  where she referred to as Stekyoden.  That's 421?  Xsiluu Saadit is 419.  Stekyoden is not on the list.  Maybe you could give  a spelling for the court.  rOR:  S-T-E-K-Y-O-D-E-N.  D-E-N?  rOR:  D-E-N.  That's not 421?  No, that's the name of the mountain at the end. I  will put a number 2 above. I just want to be sure  it's right.  The next name you gave was Tass Holtxwit.  The name  of the ridge further along, what's that name?  Txas lax aatxwit.  Now, can you just point to that on the photograph?  Here.  That's the ridge along the right.  And I will --  It takes up the whole of the extreme right  photograph as identified by the witness.  That's been marked number 2, is it?  That's been marked number 2.  I will draw a line 1263  1  2  THE  COURT  3  MR.  GRANT  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  THE  VOICE  10  MR.  GRANT  11  THE  VOICE  12  MR.  GRANT  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  GRANT  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  GRANT  24  25  A  26  MR.  GRANT  27  28  MR.  PLANT  29  30  31  32  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  GRANT  35  36  THE  COURT  37  38  MR.  GRANT  39  40  THE  COURT  41  42  43  MR.  GRANT  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  GRANT  46  4 7 THE COURT:  along it.  The name of that ridge is?  It's 421 on tab 19.  Now, then, you referred to a place that was the  Boundary.  Can you see that on the photograph?  That's where Xsiluu Saadit is and that's boundary  line.  And what number was that?  What was the one?  Xsiluu Saadit.  Number 419.  Number 419.  Now, in this photograph can you see where Xsiluu  Saadit comes down?  There is a mountain here, Xsiluu Saadit.  And I put a 3 -- I should put it right on the  photograph as I have done with the other two.  I put  a 3 above where she has -- she has pointed with an  arrow down.  That's a boundary, is it?  Yes.  What is 419?  Is that boundary, what kind of a -- is that a creek  or a mountain or what is it?  Creek.  I would ask if you could pass that up to the court  and you can show where the markings are.  My lord, when the witness is identifying Stekyoden,  my recollection is that she pointed across most of  the ridge which is at the top of the first  photograph on the left.  That would be where I would  have my number 1.  The ridge shown --  I will refer the witness to that after you have had  a chance to look at this.  All right.  How far down does the line go on number  3, halfway down?  Well, I have just drawn the arrow down.  The witness  went right down the photograph on that.  What is that at the bottom, is that ground fog or is  that a lake?  I expect it's mist or fog or  something.  Yeah, that's mist.  It's not a lake?  No.  In fact, that's over the -- would be  approximately over the Skeena River.  All right. 1264  1  MR.  GRANT  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  24  MR.  PLANT  25  26  27  28  29  THE  COURT  30  31  MR.  PLANT  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  MR.  GRANT  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Now, on the photograph on the top of Exhibit 33B just  to be clear here, can you point out to where -- just  mark -- show with your finger where Stekyoden is.  You pointed to this and Mr. Plant said you pointed  all the way along.  Just to be clear, I can't recall  what you did.  Is Stekyoden one peak or does it go  along a mountain?  On the -- by the Sedy, Stekyoden.  It's by Sedy Lake?  Yes.  And down there it's Gwaans' mountain there.  Txas si lax aatxwit what they call it.  The witness was pointing to the ridge that is under  the number 2 on the line.  Does Stekyoden go all the  way to the end of that mountain?  Stekyoden is right there Xsiluu Saadit.  Spookw  can't go over the creek at Xsiluu  Saadit.  That's the boundary line between Spookw?  Spookw and Wii'goob'l, Wolf and Frog Clan.  And who is on the other side of that creek?  Gwaans is on the other side and Spookw on this side  and then Wii'goob'l.  I apologize for the interruption, my but my friend  still hasn't, with respect, satisfactorily  cleared the problem of point number 1.  The last  time the witness pointed the location of Stekyoden.  It was to the left of number 3 -- of the number 3.  That highest peak in any of these points show in  this photograph.  She passed her finger back and forth the whole ridge  there, my lord.  And I don't have a big concern  about this, but my friend has put the number 1 in a  deliberate place.  The witness has never pointed her  finger at that place in particular.  She has passed  her hand across the whole photograph and, with  respect, that's how I have interpreted her evidence  of identification of Stekyoden on this photograph  which is Exhibit 33.  Well, my understanding was she had pointed there.  But I will tape it together because what happened  the second time I put it to her was there was only  the two photographs and the one up above and I  think  she is confused because I moved these photographs.  So what I will do is I will tape this and we will  try it one more time. 1265  1  THE  COURT  2  3  4  MR.  GRANT  5  THE  COURT  6  7  MR.  PLANT  8  9  10  11  12  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  PLANT  15  16  17  THE  COURT  18  19  MR.  GRANT  20  21  22  23  24  THE  COURT  25  MR.  GRANT  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  GRANT  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  GRANT  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  GRANT  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47  Well, the only question is whether Stekyoden is the  left-hand ridge on the top photograph or whether it  includes the peak, is that the problem here?  Yes.  All right.  Let's see if the witness can help us out  in that.  Well, if I may say so, my lord, it's probably quite  easy to find where Stekyoden is and if Mr. Grant  wants to do that upon instructions, I am prepared to  accept that, but I am very anxious that the  witness' attempt to locate Stekyoden on this  photograph be noted for the record.  I think that's --  Because it may have some importance when she is  describing the boundaries and locations of the  Territories.  Well, what do you understand, Mr. Grant, is  Stekyoden a ridge or does it include the peak?  Well, my understanding is -- I have now taped the  first part of the photograph so that it's all  parallel.  If you go to this series of three  photographs the furthest left is Stekyoden and it  stretches along that ridge.  Does it include --  It is like a long mountain.  Does it include the peak?  Well, by the peak I take it you mean the high point?  The highest point in any of the photographs?  I believe that it does.  All right.  I just -- okay.  I have now taped the three  photographs together so that you can see that it is  one mountain all the way along in the three pictures  in Exhibit 33B.  Now, can you just point with your  finger where Stekyoden is?  I don't want to use my finger this time.  You don't want to use your finger this time?  He doesn't believe me.  No, he is confused because I kept moving that  photograph and now it is in one place.  Just so the  court can see where you are pointing to, that's all.  I am not going to use my finger.  Can you tell us is Stekyoden --  Stekyoden belong to Steve Robinson and Jerry Sterrit  and that's the boundary line I was talking about  Xsiluusaadit and that's all. 1266  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  Q  10  A  11  THE  COURT  12  13  MR.  GRANT  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  GRANT  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  28  Q  29  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  GRANT  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  GRANT  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  And that's —  I'm not going to use my finger.  -- the creek that you pointed to?  And  Stekyoden, is that the mountain that you look at  when you look across from Old Hazelton?  Yes.  Look across what?  Look across the Skeena River from Old Hazelton?  Yes.  It just depends where you are in Old Hazelton, does  it?  But it's across the river from old Hazelton?  Yes.  All right.  It's hard to miss when you are at Hazelton.  Now, you describe this creek that went down --  Yes.  Xsiluu Saadit?  Yes.  And you say there is Spookw and Wii'goob'lean't  cross the creek?  Yes.  And —  Gwaans can't get across like Spookw.  They can't  come over with that creek, you know.  That's the  boundary line and they are not supposed to do that.  They walk over the creek.  So on one side -- I am referring here to the map at  tab 4, number 2 map.  Number 2?  Yes.  Sorry, my lord.  And if you look at the  Exhibit 5 behind you, you can see where that map  refers to.  It refers to the -- again to the  Hazelton is here and the Skeena goes here.  We were  talking about this L shaped Hanamuxw territory.  Here we are talking about this one, this territory  here just below Spookw on Exhibit 5.  Yes.  Now, you said on one side of this is Spookw and  Wii'goobl'.   And then you said Gwaans can't cross  the creek?  Yes.  Is Gwaans on the same side as Spookw or on the other  side of the creek?  Other side.  And when we refer to Gwaans here, are we referring 1267  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  THE  COURT  16  17  18  19  20  21  MR.  GRANT  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  GRANT  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  GRANT  32  33  34  THE  COURT  35  36  37  38  MR.  GRANT  39  THE  COURT  40  MR.  GRANT  41  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  GRANT  44  45  46  47  THE  COURT  to you?  When you refer to Gwaans, that's the chief  at Hanamuxw' house?  Yes.  Now, how far up the mountain you -- you were  pointing on the Exhibit 33B to the -- to this area  that's -- that's Hanamuxw' or Gwaans' territory.  You described it as Gwaans' territory?  How far up  the mountain does that go?  Well, I explained it to you last night that Gwis  gyen owns the other side.  The other side of the mountain?  Yes.  So you go up to the top of the mountain, then?  Yes.  Mr. Grant, I missed something in the evidence.  And  I think I have it right, but I want to make sure.  I  didn't -- I didn't recognize the switch from map 1  to map 2.  And do I understand that 33A shows the  territory claimed on map number 1 and 33B claims the  territory shown in map 2?  Yes, my lord and I am sorry I didn't introduce that.  That's fine, thank you.  Now, on map number 2 if you go straight up from the  label at the bottom territory of Hanamuxw and just  above the large U in Hanamuxw, just inside the thin  line which draws where the map is, but outside the  contour lines, if you put an X there that would be  the viewing of Exhibit 33B.  And I could indicate  that to the court on the map the exhibit.  Yes, please.  I have marked with an X in red with again the  viewing out, wideangle viewing out to make it where  it was.  Thank you.  All right.  Well, then, one last -- or  not one last question, but at least a question.  If  we are to take the arrow that where she showed the  boundary --  Yes.  What boundary are we talking about?  You are talking about the boundary, if you are  looking at the map with the name on the bottom --  Yes.  You see on the right-hand side of the heavy black  line Xsiluu Saadit.  It's written right along the  black line -- I am sorry, on the left-hand side as  you are facing it.  Yes. 126?  1  MR.  GRANT  2  THE  COURT  3  MR.  GRANT  4  5  6  7  THE  COURT  8  9  MR.  GRANT  10  THE  COURT  11  MR.  GRANT  12  13  14  15  THE  COURT  16  17  18  MR.  GRANT  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  GRANT  21  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  GRANT  24  25  THE  COURT  26  MR.  GRANT  27  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  GRANT  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  REGISTRAR  38  THE  COURT  39  40  41  42  MR.  GRANT  43  Q  44  45  46  47  A  And it goes right down to the river.  Yes.  That would be the -- and you followed that up, that  would be the line.  At the very top of that would be  -- in the sky actually would be the three and the  arrow points down to it.  Well, then is .3 on Exhibit 33B this left-hand  boundary on --  On the map.  -- on map number 2?  Yes, it's the map -- number 3 on Exhibit 33B is the  creek, is the right-hand -- the left-hand boundary.  When you are facing it with the label territory of  Hanamuxw at the bottom.  All right.  Thank you.  So I would take it, then,  that the Stekyoden would be on the left again of  that boundary line?  That's right.  Yes.  Stekyoden you can see very heavy contours going up  past -- towards the top of the map.  Yes.  And that's where you would be -- that's the  direction of Stekyoden.  Yes, thank you.  I don't intend to put either of these territory maps  to the witness because --  All right.  -- she is not able to read the maps.  They are only  exhibits for identification at this point.  Now, I  would like to refer you just to -- I would  like to mark the next exhibit as a supplementary  photograph book of Gwaans.  I have a copy for the  court and copies were provided to my friends last  week.  I would ask that be marked as the next  exhibit number.  34.  Any problem, gentlemen?  All right.  That will be  Exhibit 34.  (EXHIBIT 34:  Supplementary Photograph Book of  Gwaans)  I would just like to have you identify these few  photographs in this book.  First of all, the  photograph at tab 1, is that your grandmother  Fanny Johnson?  Yes. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  1269  And that blanket that she is wearing, is that  Hanamuxw?  No, that's my grandfather's.  That's Peter Johnson's?  Peter Johnson.  And the rattle that she is holding, is that the  Hanamuxw?  Hanamuxw.  And her headdress?  Yes.  That's Hanamuxw?  Mh'm.  Now, the photograph at number -- and were you alive  when that picture was taken?  Yes, that's the time when Barbeau was there.  That's when Barbeau was there?  I remember the place in front of my Uncle Jeffrey's  place in Andimaul.  So that was taken at Andimaul?  Yes.  And photograph number 2, can you tell the court what  that is -- who that is?  That's Joan.  That's the present Hanamuxw?  Hanamuxw, yes .  And whose blanket is she wearing?  Jeffrey's.  Is that Hanamuxw' blanket?  Yes.  And when was this picture taken?  Well, at the time when Jeffrey died in 1966.  So that was at the burial Feast?  Yes.  Going over to photograph number 3.  That's —  Is there a name for this particular -- it's a  rattle; is that right?  Yes.  And is there a name for the crest on that rattle?  It's jehlihl hat'.  And what does that mean?  Marten.  Marten?  Marten, hat'.  And there is another rattle, a photograph of another  rattle, picture number 4?  Yes. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  1270  Is that Hanamuxw?  Yes.  And what does that rattle --  That's at Ksan now.  It's at Ksan now?  Yes.  There is designs on that photograph.  Can you just  tell what --  That's miilooxs, that's a rattle.  We call it  haseex.  Miilooxs, throwing stones.  Throwing stones?  Yeah.  And is that one of the nax nok of Hanamuxw' house?  Yes.  And was it performed in 1945?  Yes.  And just let me ask you one other thing, were either  of these rattles used at the pole raising in 1945?  Yes, yeah.  They both were?  Yes.  Turning over to photograph number 5 to -- it's a  photograph of a mask.  Yeah, that's xsi kyegasxw.  And what is that?  That's one of the nax nok.  The other one is Gyedim  gilaawlii.  Is that tab 6 or photo 6 in Exhibit 34, that's the  man in the hill?  Mh'm.  And that's one of the Feast masks.  These masks both  belong to Hanamuxw?  Yeah.  And were they both used in 1945?  Yes.  Photo 7, is this the headdress that you showed the  court?  Yes.  And that belongs to Gwaans?  Yes.  And the top part of that, is that made of grizzly  bear claws?  Yes.  And at photo 8 there is another mask and what is  that the mask of?  Did I mention Yal.  Yes, you did. 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  15  Q  16  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  1271  I forgot the name of that, that's Hanamuxw.  Is that used during the nax nok performance?  Yes.  Is that used during the performance for the  stone throwing?  Yes.  Now, I would like to refer to -- I would like to ask  you about how the seating is arranged at the Feast  in Kitsequkla.  Yeah.  Where does Hanamuxw sit?  The end of the table at the back.   And the last one  is Wootim ts'ee'l and Hanamuxw, Yoopt and  Xsgogimlaxha.  And Wiigyet.  I just refer the court -- I refer the court to tab 3  of document book Exhibit 29.  You are just  describing the head table of the Giskaast in  Kitsequkla?  Yes.  For the record, the index doesn't have the index  before her, but started to give the names.  And you  said Wootim ts'ee'l?  Wootim ts'ee'l is the first one.  Who owns that name?  Tommy Jones.  He is from the house of Xsgogimlaxha?  Yes.  And Hanamuxw?  Yes.  And Yoopx.  Who holds that name?  Elmer Derrick.  Whose house is that?  Wiigyet's house.  Next to him?  Xsgogimlaxha.  Who holds that name?  Joe Wright.  Next to him?  Wiigyet.  Mangus Turner?  Gwis gyen.  Mh'm?  And Gwis gyen, that's Stanley Williams.  Mh'm.  And there is 'Nii tarn lax ooxs and Ts'aalis.  Nii tak lax ooxs, who is that?  That's Roger Johnson. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  1272  And he is from Guxsan' house?  Yes.  And Ts'aalis .  He is from Guxsan' house.  And who holds that name?  David Milton.  Now, you are not on this table?  No.  Where does Gwaans sit?  By the door.  I would ask the court to turn the page over to  the -- to the next page in the same tab.  Okay.  Can you describe the seating of the table by the  door?  Well, there is Niis Nohl now, that's Henry Wilson.  Does he sit at the end?  Yes.  And who sits next to him along the side?  Yuu K'intxw.  Oliver Wesley?  Yes.  Which houses are those two people from?  That's from Guxsan house.  And next to Yuu K'intxw?  Gwa amaals.  And that's Dora Johnson from your house.  And next?  Gwaans.  That's yourself?  Yes.  And next?  Haawa.  Beside you?  Oh, it's K'amiam.   And Haawa.  Where does Siip juxw sit?  By -- between us and Dora.  Right.  Between you and Dora?  Yes.  Not between -- I was sit and then K'amiam and  then he sits there.  So K'amiam sits right beside you?  Yes.  And who holds that name?  Mary -- Bruce Wesley.  And what house is he in?  Guxsan.  And then who sits next to him?  Haawa.  Didn't I mention Haawa?  Yes.  And who sits next -- 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4 MR.  GRANT  5  6 THE  TRANS  7 MR.  GRANT  8 THE  TRANS  9  10  A  11 MR.  GRANT  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  1273  'Niis 'na wii.  And then Guun ga la gantxw.  'Niis 'na wii, is that William Stevens?  Yes.  Okay.  That's an additional, my lord, and I will ask  the interpreter to give the spelling.  rOR:   Which one?  "Niis 'na wii.  rOR:  'Niis 'na wii, apostrophe N-I-I-S, apostrophe  N-A, W-I-I, 'Niis 'na wii?  'Niis 'na wii.  And which house is 'Niis 'na wii?  Xsgogimlaxha.  Okay.  Now, I just wanted to clarify where Siip  juxw --  Siip juxw.  Siip juxw?  I'm not sure.  Right next to Guun ga ba gantxw.  On your side of Guun ga la gantxw?  Yes.  So, my lord, I think the changes from the -- And who  holds the name Siip juxw?  Yes.  Siip juxw?  Yes.  That's Larry Marsden.  Under Siip juxw it should be Larry Marsden instead  of Larry Wright.  And after it goes right from the  bottom to Gwaans and then the next one would be  Bruce Wesley beside her.  And then would be Roger  Sampare.  And then would be Larry Marsden.  Then  would be the additional one of 'Niis 'na wii,  William Stevens.  And then at the end Guun ga la  gantxw.  That's Grace Williams?  Yes.  And she's from Guxsan' house?  Yes.  Now, which clans put on Feast at Kitsequkla where  you sit?  Frog.  Do the Wolf clans put Feasts on at Kitsequkla?  There is some Wolfs there now.  Before there is just  two clans there and Frogs and Giskaast.  Did the Wolf clan put on Feast in Kitsequkla?  Sometimes.  What about the Eagles, do they put on Feasts?  No Eagles there. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16 **  A  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  30 THE  INTER  31  A  32 MR.  GRANT  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  A  1274  Are there children of people -- children of women  who are from the Eagle clan who live in Kitsequkla  Yes, I know Earnest Hyzims' wife from Eagle clan  from Kitwanga.  And her children, some of them still live in  Kitsequkla?  Yes.  Now, I would like to ask you about assisting in  Feasts and refer -- do you know of any territory --  of any case where a person would get territory for  assisting to bury somebody else from another house?  That's -- yes, I know.  Can you describe --  That —  Who it is and where they got territory?  That's the reason why that Guxsan owns the trap  line Guxsan because Yal died on the hunting  ground his sister was there and he come back to --  yes, it is Kitsequkla after Yal died.  They wanted  Guxsan to help her.  So Guxsan and Hanamuxw decide  -- Hanamuxw decided what they were going to do and  that's what they do.  But that time they didn't  bury the -- a person died, you know, they just  cremate the ones that died.  Mh'm.  And that's what they did, Guxsan did.  They cremate  Yal and his sister was really upset because the only  two of them left.  And they decided to give Am  halayt and haseex --  3TER:   Am halayt, head piece.  And the rattle.  Yal's sister decide to give it?  Yeah, mh'm.  But Hanamuxw said -- they refused when  this woman showed them that they were going to give  and then he had -- she had a son and Hanamuxw said  to her, you know, that the boy will use it when they  grow up.  So they decide -- so this woman decided to  give the hunting ground and Hanamuxw and Guxsan  said:  Okay, and that's what they did.  And did your -- did this happen before you were  born?  Before I was born, but my grandmother used to tell  me about it.  And did she tell you where this territory of  Guxsan was when she told you how --  Yeah, past Kitwanga.  Xsi gwm bi yoosxw closer to -- 1  2  3  Q  4  A  5 MR.  GRANT  6  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  Q  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  1275  on the other side of Kitwanga and that's where Ant  tk'al bakxw.  Is it on the railway side of the river?  On the railway side.  Just for the record, for the court, there is a  territory labeled under Guxsan which is table 5 on  the other side of Kitwanga.  Now, that practice or that transferring of territory  to Guxsan because he buried Yal?  Yes.  Is that something that's accepted under Gitxsan  laws?  Yes.  All the Chiefs agree with that.  And what about protecting the name of the Chief, for  example, if a chief dies.  Well, the Guxsan take the hunting ground and never  mind the name, but this won't hold the name.  Right.  Okay.  I have moved into another question  and I should introduce the -- I was going to ask you  about if you've heard of a case where when a Chief  dies and none of his, the people in his House are  able to take the name because of their age or for  whatever reason, can his -- and it's a male chief,  can his own children hold that name for a certain  period of time?  Yes.  Do you know of a case like that that you have seen?  Well, I heard Kwamoon.  And that's the reason why  they used the name Kwamoon in Kitiwanga.  Kwamoon was from Gisga ga'as and there was no more  food that time.  And they went down on a river and  Kwamoon was ready to marry one of Hak'w' girl --  Mh'm.  -- niece.  And I heard that.  That's what  grandmother was saying.  And Maggie Ryan used to  tell me.  And Hak'w was from Blackwater.  Half  Eagle and Frogs, that's Delgam uukw, Adaaw.  Okay.  When you are referring to Hak'w here, you are  referring to the name that was held by your husband?  Yes.  And you said that -- now, did this happen in the  time of t'am lax amit or before then?  Before, I guess.  But there is no food, that's  the reason why they left Blackwater.  And you are referring to Blackwater, is this a -- is  this the Blackwater Lake up in the north of the  territory? 1276  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  31  Q  32  A  33 MR.  GRANT  34  35  36  37  38 THE  COURT  39  40  41 MR.  GRANT  42  43 THE  COURT  44  45  46  47  Yes, Gisga ga'as.  And what happened that Kwamoon name went into Hak'w'  house?  When they cremated him, that's why they gave him  that name to Hak'w.  That's why Hak'w was holding  the name.  So is this today a name Kwamoon in Hak'w' house?  Yes, one of the name in Hak'w' house.  And is that all right in the Gitxsan to have a name  in two houses?  Yes, because they cremated Kwamoon, that's why these  relation passed the name to Hak'w.  Do you know of circumstances of Ax dii hix where his  name was taken care of by someone?  Well, his son owns the name for a long time, Charles  Smith.  Did this happen in your lifetime?  Well, I seen that man.  Charles Smith?  Yes.  And why did his son hold that name?  Because no one could hold the name.  And who was the old Ax dii hix children or who was  the successor?  Well, it's supposed to be his dad was holding that  name, you know.  And his dad died and they hold the  name.  There was nobody there to hold the name.  Did the name go back to --  Well, they give it back when Wallace and Jack and  Jeffrey are able to hold the name.  And that's Wallace, Jack and Jeffrey Morgan?  Yes.  My lord, I talked with the witness at the coffee  break and from discussion and what she said I was  concerned about her stamina to go until 4:30.  I  would suggest that it may be an appropriate time to  adjourn now.  Well, all right on that basis I think that's  reasonable.  I would have been happy to put in some  extra time, but I --  I can advise the court that I don't have much more  direct of this witness.  All right.  10 o'clock tomorrow morning then.  Gentlemen, sometime this week I think we must have a  discussion about the pace of the trial and so I  would like counsel to give that some thought.  And I  would like counsel to consider some proposals that I 1277  1 might consider as to how we can move the matter  2 along.  I would be happy to do it at 4 o'clock any  3 day this week including Friday, but counsel can let  4 me know when they have had such a discussion.  I  5 think it should be in the presence of a court  6 reporter.  I don't have a view whether it should be  7 in court or in chambers, I will leave that to  8 counsel.  Thank you.  9 REGISTRAR:   Order in court.  10 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  11  12 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING  13 TRANSCRIPT TO BE TRUE AND ACCURATE TO  14 THE BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY.  15  16  17 LISA REID, OFFICIAL REPORTER  18 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28

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