1217 1 2 3 4 THE REGIS 5 6 7 THE COURT 8 THE CLERK 9 MR. GRANT 10 Q 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 A 18 Q 19 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 Q 30 31 32 A 33 Q 34 A 35 36 Q 37 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 43 44 45 A 46 Q 47 A SMITHERS, B.C. June 15, 1987 \R: Order in court. In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, this 15th day of June, 1987. Delgamuukw and others versus Her Majesty the Queen. Mr. Grant. Witness, I remind you, you're still under oath. Yes, my lord. I would like to start just by -- there's a couple of the areas that the witness has already given evidence on. I just have one or two questions on them. Last week you described the adaawk of ska 'wo. When the children came back down to re-set up the village were crests put on the fronts of their Houses? Yes. And what -- could you tell the Court what those crests were? A moon. Mm-hmm? And the other House is rainbow and stars. Yes? And Guxsan. And Guxsan? Yes. Gaxsbgabaxs. And what is that? Is that the moon? Yes. And do the rainbow and the stars that were on the crest of that house, are they connected to the rainbow and stars on Hanamuxw's pole? Yes. Can you explain that relationship? Well, between the three houses, and that came from Tarn lax amit. So Hanamuxw's House had the rainbow and stars at Tarn Lax amit? Yes. And they came from before that time at Ska 'wo? Yes. Another area I was asking you about last week and did not quite complete was the use of wood by the Gitksan, and I would like, if you could tell me, if maple was used by the Gitksan? Yes. And did you see this use of maple yourself? Yes. 121? 1 Q 2 A 3 MR. GRANT 4 5 THE COURT 6 MR. GRANT 7 THE TRANS 8 9 THE COURT 10 11 MR. GRANT 12 13 14 15 16 THE COURT 17 18 19 MR. GRANT 20 21 22 23 THE COURT 24 MR. GRANT 25 THE COURT 26 MR. GRANT 27 THE COURT 28 29 30 31 32 MR. GRANT 33 THE COURT 34 MR. GRANT 35 36 37 THE COURT 38 39 40 41 42 MR. GRANT 43 44 45 46 THE COURT 47 And how was the maple used? Hoobixim gan, wooden spoon. : The Gitksan word you just said was the word for wooden spoon, is that right? : I suppose we have the spelling? : I believe -- do you have that? LATOR: Hoobixim gan, H-o-o-b-i-x-i-m-g, underlined, a-n. : Is it really necessary, Mr. Grant, to have this spelling in both languages. : Well, my lord, the witness gave the word. I just checked with the reporter -- or the interpreter because she had given the word, and I noted the interpreter is -- I wasn't going to have the interpreter give the spelling out in court. : Well,I don't see how we can use the indian words if we don't have the spelling, if that's what seems to be taking so much unnecessary time. : Well, I've assumed that the indian words, as long as Madam Interpreter has the spelling they could just be put on the transcript and I wasn't going to be asking her to spell it. Well, the reporter has to stop and get it though. Yes, I know. I was watching that. Yes. If there's a problem -- It seems to me that's what is taking an inordinate amount of time. I don't know if the witness has been instructed to use both languages, but if she has, it seems to me that it's -- that that is unfortunate, but I have to leave it to you to -- No, my lord. To conduct your case. There are words that are place names that I've asked the witness to give those, and you've got most of those lists. I can't believe it's going to help the resolution of this case to know that a spoon made of maple wood has to -- to know the word in both languages. It just doesn't seem to me to be any utilitary value at all, but go ahead and see how we get along. Well, all I wish to say, my lord, is the witness, as I indicated earlier, she's been using English most of the time, and sometimes the witness just answers in Gitksan spontaneously. I notice it happens with remarkable frequency, Mr. Grant, and if she's been instructed to do it, then 1219 so be it. I merely make that suggestion for your benefit if you can take advantage of it to hasten the matter along. If you can't, well, then you can't. MR. GRANT Q 9 10 11 12 13 MR. 14 THE 15 THE 16 THE 17 THE 18 MR. 19 20 21 22 MR. 23 THE 24 25 2 6 MR. 27 28 29 3 0 MR. 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 THE COURT: 42 4 3 MR. GRANT: 44 45 4 6 THE COURT: 47 What I was saying was that rather than giving full answers in Gitksan, I think sometimes she's answering a couple of words in Gitksan because she's more familiar I think in giving the English, just so she can think of the word. Now, is there a use of yellow willow? A Yes. GRANT: And what is it used for? INTERPRETER: They use them to spark up a fire. COURT: To start a fire? INTERPRETER: Yes. COURT: Thank you. GRANT: Q did And was -- was charcoal used, did they use they carry something to make fire with them? A Yes. GRANT: And can you explain how they made the fire? INTERPRETER: They put the charcoal in birch, the bark, and they could carry this along with them, and that's how they would start their fires. GRANT: Q A GRANT: What about lighting their way in the dark, how did they light their way in the dark? They used the same thing. Now, my lord, I don't know if my friends -- this was delivered to them this morning, because the map was only completed. It's a map of the Kitwanga fishing site, which I wish to again use in the same way as I used the other map. It's not within the material, both counsel have it, and it's -- I received it late on Friday, and it's just a -- it's a map that is similar to the other map, and I don't want to put it to the witness, but I ask that it be marked as an exhibit for identification, and I have a copy for the Court. Well, I'm sorry. You say you're not putting it to the witness? This map, as with the other map, is a map to assist the Court and counsel. It will later be identified by one of the cartographers. You're going to be asking the witness about the matter shown on the map? 1220 1 MR. GRANT: Yes. So I thought that it would be of assistance to 2 the court to have a copy. 3 THE COURT: Is there any problem, Mr. Plant? 4 MR. PLANT: Well, I have yet to -- I only saw the document about 5 five minutes ago. I haven't even seen it long 6 enough to know if I have a problem. I'll take no 7 position. 8 THE COURT: All right, thank you. All right. It can be the next exhibit for identification. PLANT: That's on the understanding my friend is going to be proving it in due course, as I believe I heard him indicate. COURT: All right. GRANT: Of course, if I can't prove it in due course it can't be marked as an exhibit proper. COURT: What's the next exhibit number, please. 9 10 MR. 11 12 13 THE 14 MR. 15 16 THE 17 THE 18 THE 19 MR. 20 21 22 23 THE 24 25 26 27 28 2 9 MR. 30 31 32 33 THE 34 MR. 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 THE 4 3 MR. 44 45 46 47 REGISTRAR: 31. COURT: PLANT: COURT: GRANT: COURT: GRANT: For identification. If my friend has no intention of proving it in due course then I'm not sure it should not be marked at all, and I just want to be clear that it is his intention to prove it. I'm not sure I agree with you, Mr. Plant, with respect. It may be useful to have it just to understand the evidence of the witness as she's going along, even though it's never tendered. I don't know, but your position is recorded and understood. Go ahead. That's why I'm tendering it now, my lord. EXHIBIT 31 FOR IDENTIFICATION Map COURT: GRANT: Q Go ahead, Mr. Grant. Now, I may just assist the court by advising the court as to what -- how these two maps work in conjunction. If you put the map, Exhibit 31 for identification, on the left-hand side of the other map, it's a continuation of the river downstream. In other words, we went from above Kitsegukla to below Kitsegukla yesterday -- or on Friday, and now this would be a continuation from there downstream. Yes. And of course, also, the listing of names alphabetically at tab 19 of Exhibit 29 is -- continues with names on this side. Now -- and of course, as I said for the record, the map isn't 1 2 3 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 1221 going to be put to the witness. Mrs. Ryan, the last fishing site you talked about below Kitsegukla on Friday was -- Gwin suuks. Gwin Suuks? Yes. Can you tell the court, just as you did on Friday, 8 if you continued downstream the next fishing site, 9 where it's located, which side of the river, and 10 whose it is? 11 A Yes. One Gwin suuks to An luu oo'la. 12 VOICE: Number 351 13 MR. GRANT: For the record, both Friday and today Mr. 14 Sterritt is on location calling out the names 15 just for assistance. 16 THE COURT: Which one is 351 ,which side of the highway? 17 MR. GRANT: It's on which side, the railway or the highway side? 18 A On the railway side. 19 THE COURT: Thank you. 2 0 MR. GRANT: 21 Q And who owns -- which clan owns that site? 22 A Eagle. 23 Q Is there a fishing site across the river from there? 24 A Smakhlit. 25 THE TRANSLATOR: 384. 2 6 MR. GRANT: 27 Q 384? And who owns that fishing site? 2 8 A An luu oo'la. 29 Q That's of the frog clan? 30 A Yes. 31 Q Okay. Is An luu oo'la located near where a village 32 has been? 33 A Yes. 34 Q And what village was that? 35 A The white man calls it Andimaul, that's Andimaul. 36 Q When -- continuing down the river, what is the next 37 fishing site? 38 A Diphl gwin gaak. 39 VOICE: Number 360. 40 THE COURT: That's on the railway side? 41 A Yes. 42 MR. GRANT: 43 Q And who owns that fishing site? 4 4 A Twam na'axhl, Twam na'axhl. 45 Q Which house is he in? 4 6 A Hanamuxw's. 47 Q Do you have the spelling of that name? And that's 1222 A Q A Q A 8 VOICE: 39? 9 MR. GRANT: 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 VOICE: 354 2 8 MR. GRANT: 29 Q 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 THE COURT: 34 35 MR. GRANT: 3 6 THE COURT: 37 MR. GRANT: Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A of the frog clan? Yes. And is there a fishing site across from that fishing site? On the highway side. Mm-hmm? They call it Xsi an dilgin, that's Haalus. And is there a fishing site near Xsi an dilgin? Win lekhl gan si'maa. And who owns that site? Hlengwax. And he's of the frog clan? Yes. Continuing downstream, what is the next fishing site? Ganayam. Okay. On the highway side? Yes. All right. That's the -- I believe the last part of the name is G-a-m-a-y-a-n. There's a longer word in front of it on the map. Who owns that fishing site? Guxsan. And is there another site downstream from there? Ant kii is. And who owns that site? That's Kilawo'. Is that of the Eagle Clan? Yes. I didn't get the number for the one with the long name ending in Mayan. I spelled it out, it was -- just a moment. You did? It's coupled with the longer part of the name. 38 VOICE: Number 396. 3 9 THE COURT: Thank you. 4 0 MR. GRANT: 41 Q 42 43 A 44 Q 45 A 46 47 Q Okay. Can you go on down the river and tell us the next fishing site? Across and to the east, Lax an ixw. And who owns that site? Nobody owns it, but of -- but the fishermen. The fishermen use it for line. Is that near Kitwanga? 1223 37 38 39 40 A Q A MR. GRANT THE COURT GRANT Q A Q A GRANT MR. Yes. The mouth of the Kitwanga River? Yes. It's not referred to on the map, my lo Oh, all right. rd. And it's on the railway side? On this map Yes. 9 Q Is it above or below the mouth of the river? 10 A Down below. Lax an ixw. 11 MR. GRANT: Can you just give us the spelling for that. 12 THE TRANSLATOR: Lax an ixw, L-a-x, underlined, a-n i-x-w. 13 THE COURT: This is the river marked Lax an ixw, is it? 14 MR. GRANT: Yes. And underneath it you see Kitwanga River in 15 brackets and small river. Oh, yes. 16 THE COURT: 17 MR. GRANT: 18 Q 19 20 A 21 Q 22 23 A 24 Q 25 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 30 Q 31 32 A 33 MR. GRANT: 34 35 THE INTERPRETER 3 6 MR. GRANT: Q A Q A And it's at the mouth of that river, it's on the Skeena River, right? Yes. But it's on the mouth where the Kitwanga River comes out? Yes. Continuing downstream from there, what is the next fishing site? Xsi gwilax sit. Which side is it on? On the railway side Creek, Sa'an sgyoxxw. Is the one you said, Xsi gwilax sit, i the Kitwanga River and Mill Creek? Yes. Can you give a spelling for that please, Madam Interpreter. It's not on the map. Which one? And the next one is Mill s it between Xsi gwilax sit, is it? Yes. Can you repeat that word for the -- Xsi gwilax sit, Xsi gwilax sit. 41 THE INTERPRETER: Xsi gwilax sit, X-s-i g-w-i-1-a-x, underlined, s-i-t. Okay. 44 VOICE: The other one mentioned is 383, Sa'an sgyoxxw. 4 5 MR. GRANT: And Xsi gwilax sit, who owns that fishing site? Frog. 42 4 3 MR 46 47 GRANT: Q A 1224 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 A 5 THE COURT: 6 MR. GRANT: 7 Q 8 A 9 Q 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 15 A 16 MR. GRANT: 17 Q 18 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 VOICE: Num 25 MR. GRANT: 26 THE COURT: 27 28 MR. GRANT: 29 30 THE COURT: 31 32 MR. GRANT: 33 34 35 36 THE COURT: 37 MR. GRANT: 38 Q 39 40 A 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 45 A 46 VOICE: 372 47 MR. GRANT: Ganeda, the frog. Same, frog. And which House, Hak'w. Sorry? What about Sa'an sgyoxxw? which chief? Hak'w. Hak'w. Does Hak'w own Xsi gwilax sit No. Okay. What House, what Chief Tooxensxw. Continuing downstream from tha is the next fishing site? 'Tim ba'. as well? owns that of the frog? t fishing site, what Which side of the railway side of the river is it on? Railway side. And who owns that site? Gwis gyen. Is there one site or two sites there? Two fishing sites. of the river, which Is the Court following? Yes. I didn't get the one tha Mill Creek and Skeena River. It's 383, and it's actually on Sa'an sgyoxxw. Yes? There are -- there's jus the map? Yes. There's one at the mouth River, Lax an ixw, and there's gwilax sit, which is not on -- River and Mill Creek on the ra Yes. All right, thank you. t's at the junction of the map, my lord, t two that are not on of the Kitwanga another one, Xsi between the Kitwanga ilway side. Continuing down the river, what's the next fishing site after 'Tim ba'? Gwin 'waax. Which side of the river? Railway side. Do you know of a village -- of was a village called Gis k'a h Yes. a place where there oixs? 1225 Is this fishing site you just described near Gis k' hoixs? Near Gis k'a hoixs on the other side. Is it up river before you get to Gis k'a hoixs? An jam Ian on the railway side. k'a hoixs was 372. An jam Ian was 356. 356? 356. Just to go back for a moment, after 'Tim ba' you gave a name of a fishing site. Can you give that name again. What is the next fishing site after 'Tim ba'? Gwin 'waax. And that's on the highway side or railway side? Railway side. Who's fishing site is that? Gwin 'waax? Yes? Hak'w. That one is not on the map, my lord. And next to that site, the next site down? We still on the railway side? If you want, sure. Just keep going on the railway side. Gis k'a hoixs, this side, Boulder Creek. Before you do that, is the one you've just named before you get to Gis k'a hoixs, the fishing site you said belonged to Hak'w. Yes. Is that before -- Gwin 'waax, yes. It's before Gis k'a hoixs? Not very far from Gis k'a hoixs. Did you get a spelling for that? 34 THE TRANSLATOR: Yes. 35 THE COURT: Does it have a number? 36 MR. GRANT: There's no number for that particular site. It's 37 not on the map. 38 THE COURT: I'll need the spelling again, please. 39 THE TRANSLATOR: G-w-i-n, apostrophe w-a-a-x. 4 0 MR. GRANT: Now, before you crossed to the highway side, that side after that is Gis k'a hoixs, I believe you said already? Gis k'a hoixs on the railway side. And then you referred to An jam Ian? Yes. This is on the railway side. Who owns Gis k'a hoixs and An jam Ian? 1 Q 2 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 VOICE: Gis 7 THE COURT: 8 MR. GRANT: 9 10 11 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 21 A 22 Q 23 24 A 25 Q 26 27 28 A 29 Q 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 MR. GRANT: 41 Q 42 43 44 A 45 Q 46 A 47 Q 1226 Well, there's a village there clan there. Mm-hmm. Which two clans were Frogs and Giskaast. And you know where the fishin hoixs is? That's the same one. Is that where the village was Yes. And who owns that fishing sit Well, Hak'w is supposed to. And An jam Ian? Well, that's Alayst. He's in Hak'w's House? They got their own House. Okay. Going -- we're going now. The last one you gave u was An kii is. What is the n down the river? Boulder Creek, Tsim gwin elx. Number 385. I don't know where 385 is. location? No. It's the one that would Gis k'a hoixs, Tsim gwin elx That number again was? before, and they two at that village? g site called Gis k'a 9 e today, which clan? 1 A 2 3 Q 4 A 5 Q 6 7 A 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 18 19 20 A 21 VOICE: 22 THE COURT: 23 2 4 MR. GRANT: 25 2 6 THE COURT: 2 7 MR. GRANT: 28 Q 385. And who owns that site? 29 A Lelt. 30 Q Do you know a creek that's called Xsi Gwin yookhl on 31 the highway side? 32 A Xsi Gwin yookhl? 33 Q Yeah. 34 A Haalus. 35 Q Is there a fishing site there? 36 A Yes. 37 VOICE: o go across the river s on the highway side ext fishing site going Is it the next marked be right across from That's 399. 3 8 MR. GRANT 3 9 THE COURT 4 0 MR. GRANT 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 A 45 Q 46 A 47 Q That's Yes? the one that's upstream. Who uses that fishing site? Haalus. Is there a reason why Haalus Well, the House of Haalus i Okay. Haalus. Okay. Is it a Frog fishing site? uses that fishing site? s that. 1227 1 A Yes. 2 Q The last one you gave on the highway side downstream 3 was Xsi gwin yookhl? 4 A Alayst's. 5 Q What is the next fishing site on the highway side 6 then? 7 A This is Alayst's fishing site, Alaysts' fishing 8 site. Lax wii t'in. 9 VOICE: Number 378. 10 A There's another one, Lax gonaxhl. 11 VOICE: 377. 12 MR. GRANT: 13 Q Mm-hmm. Are those close, those sites? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And are they both Alayst's? 16 A Mm-hmm,Yes. 17 Q That's the triangle right across from the An jam Ian 18 triangle? Is there any other fishing sites between 19 Tsim gwin elx and that Lax wii t'in? 20 A No. I mentioned those places, Lax wii t'in and 21 Lax gonaxhl. There's two sites there, gis k'a hoixs 22 and An jam Ian on the highway side. 23 Q Right. Continuing down the river, are there 24 other -- what is the next fishing site? 25 A An loohl hon. 26 Q Which side of the river is that on? 27 A On the railway side. 28 VOICE: Number 358. 2 9 MR. GRANT: 30 Q There's a -- do you know where there's an air field 31 down there, an airstrip? 32 A Yes. 33 Q Is An loohl hon near that? 34 A Yes. 35 Q Just for the record, my lord, on the exhibit it says 36 Win golhl hon, and it should be A-n rather than 37 M-i-n? 38 A Well, the man who owns that fishing site is Biis. 39 Q And what House is he in? 40 A Wolf. 41 Q That's the clan which -- who is the head chief? 42 A Ax dii hix. 43 Q And is that the same House as Tenim gyet? 44 A Yes. 45 Q Was there a village anywhere in this area, a Gitksan 46 village? 47 A There is, there is before. 122? 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 16 A 17 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 22 A 23 Q 24 25 A 26 Q 27 28 A 29 Q 30 A 31 32 33 MR. GRANT 34 35 THE COURT 36 37 MR. GRANT 38 Q 39 40 A 41 MR. GRANT 42 43 44 THE COURT 45 46 A 47 THE COURT What was the name of the village? An loohl hon. Was it near to where the airstrip is? Yes. What is the next fishing site going down the river? Wilson Creek on the railway side. Do you recall the Gitksan name for that Wilson Creek? Xswins t'aat. And do you know the name of the fishing site there? There's three fishing sites there. Mm-hmm. Do you recall the names of them? You want me to say them? If you know them, if you can remember them, sure, go ahead? Win luu oks hli galps wii yoo is one of the fishing sites there. Okay. Could you just say that word again, please? Win luu oks hli galps wii yoo. Is this site -- are these sites close to the mouth of the creek? Yes. Is there -- do you recognize the name Miinhl am k'oxs? Miinhl am k'oxs, yes. Is that one of the names that you -- one of the sites? Yes. It's right at the mouth of the creek? It is. It's on the highway side. They call it Gwin ax woowax, right across from the airport, that's gwin ax woowax. Do you have that spelling? Could you give it to the court, please. I'm sorry. I don't know what it is that the witness has described and which is about to be spelled. There's the fishing site right across from Woodcock on the highway side which is called this name? Gwin ax woowax. It's not on the map, my lord, that site. It's right across from the airfield from Woodcock, as I understand. I see, there's Woodcock up there. This is on the highway side across from the airfield? Yep. All right. 1229 1 MR. GRANT 2 THE TRANS 3 MR. GRANT 4 Q 5 6 A 7 Q 8 A 9 Q 10 A 11 Q 12 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 MR. GRANT 23 THE TRANS 24 MR. PLANT 25 26 THE COURT 27 28 MR. PLANT 29 VOICE: X 30 THE COURT 31 32 MR. GRANT 33 THE COURT 34 MR. GRANT 35 Q 36 37 A 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 42 A 43 Q 44 45 46 47 : Go ahead with the spelling. LATOR: G-w-i-n a-x, underlined, w-o-o-w-a-x. Going downstream from Wilson Creek, can you describe the fishing sites downstream of Wilson Creek? It's Ax dii hix fishing site on the railway side. They all belong to Ax dii hix? Yes. What about on the highway side, that area? Yeah. Yeah, that I mentioned on the Gwin ax woowax. Yes. And if you go past, you know where Cedarvale is? Yes. If you go below Cedarvale? Frogs, Ax goot. I'm sorry? Ax goot. Where is that located? Is that near a creek? Yes. What's the name of the creek? Xsi miinhl ska'nist. : Just a moment, my lord. LATOR: 407. : May I have the spelling of the fishing site name and the creek? : I don't know if we've been given a name for the site. Just a creek at the moment. : I thought I heard a word Ax goot. si miinhl ska'nist is 407. : Well, is that the name that's on the map for the creek? No, it's — It looks quite different. Yes. Which side of the river is this on, the railway side or highway side? Highway side. And is this quite near to Cedarvale? Yes. Would it be above Cedarvale or below it, towards Terrace? No. Between Kitwanga and Cedarvale. And that's -- that creek, my lord, is not labeled on this map. I believe it's -- well, I'm not going to -- I don't have a map that has that creek labeled on it. Can you give the name of that site again that's at that 1230 1 2 A 3 Q 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 A 9 Q 10 A 11 THE COURT 12 MR. GRANT 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 17 A 18 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 23 A 24 Q 25 A 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 30 31 A 32 33 MR. GRANT 34 35 36 37 38 THE COURT 39 MR. GRANT 40 Q 41 42 A 43 Q 44 A 45 MR. GRANT 46 THE COURT 47 creek? It's Ax goot fishing site. Okay. Ax goot fishing site? Ax goot. That's who owns it? Yes. Do you recall the name of the site? Xsi miinhl ska'nist, like the creek. It's got the same name as the creek? Yes. But I don't know where it is, Mr. Grant. Okay. Now, is this close to Cedarvale? Yes. At Cedarvale there's a little store and there's a creek beside the store? Well, you're talking about across the river. I'm talking to -- I mean highway side. You're talking about the highway side? Yes. Okay. Do you recall the store at Cedarvale on the highway side, the little gas station and restaurant? Oh, yeah, that's -- And there's a little creek? Yeah. Little creek right beside that little cafe. And is that the creek we're talking of? Yes. And, my lord, what that would do is place it, if you see Cedarvale marked on the railway side, if you went across -- What do you mean, what do you mean, what do you say then. Railway? No. It's on the highway side. Yeah, it's okay. I'm giving the court a bit of directions. Don't worry, I'm just trying to clarify the map, okay. If you go across, there's a little island with a little causeway on it, but probably just above that would be the approximate location. Of the creek? Of the creek, yes. It's not marked on the map. And this fishing site is right at that creek? Yes. On the Skeena? Yes. Okay. I don't have -- I don't know if the record shows the name of the creek or the name of the fishing site. 1231 1 MR. GRANT 2 THE COURT MR. GRANT Q 9 10 11 12 MR. A GRANT 13 MR. PLANT 14 MR. GRANT 15 MR. PLANT 16 MR. GRANT 17 THE TRANSLATOR 18 MR. GRANT: 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 25 A 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 VOICE: 401 31 MR. GRANT: 32 Q 33 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 A 45 VOICE: Number 373 4 6 MR. GRANT: 47 Q Okay. The creek's name is number 407 on the tab 19. Yes. And the witness has described the owner of the fishing site, she has not given the name of the fishing site, she has not given the name of the fishing site, but I asked you if there was a name for the fishing site and you said "Well, it's the creek". Is the name of the fishing site the same as the name of the creek? Yes. Okay. May I have the name of the owner? The spelling, Yes, please. Could you give the name and the spelling, please? Ax goot, A-x, underlined, g, underlined o-o-t. And what clan is he in? Ax goot? Frog. And what House? Wiihlengwax. Continuing downstream from Cedarvale, what is the next fishing site? It is Mosquitoe Creek. What's the name of that site? They call that Mosquitoe Creek, the fishing site. What's the Gitksan word for that creek? Xsi gwin Biyosxw. 401? Is that on the railway side or the highway side? On the railway side. And who owns that site? Lelt. Of the Frog clan? Yes. Ganeda? Yes. What is the next site going downstream? Gwin watsx. Is that on the railway side? On the highway side. And who owns that site? 1232 1 A Wii hlengwax. 2 Q Is that across from what's known as Porcupine Creek? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And on the map it's labeled Quill Creek, my lord, on 5 the railway side. And is there a fishing site at 6 Porcupine Creek? 7 A Yes. 8 Q What's it called? 9 A The same, Xsi gwin axwt. 10 Q It's the same as the creek name? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And who owns that site? 13 A Eagle. 14 VOICE: Number 402. 15 MR. GRANT: Are you following, my lord? 16 THE COURT: I think so, but I'm far from certain, but I think I 17 am. 18 MR. GRANT: Okay. There's a creek named — it's on the map, 19 it's Quill Creek. 20 THE COURT: Oh, I have that, yes. 21 MR. GRANT: 22 Q You have that, okay. Is there any fishing sites at 23 a creek called Xsi ansi gant? 24 A Oh, Xsi ansi gant. 25 Q Yes? 26 A Yes. 27 Q Which side of the river is that site at? 28 A Highway side. 29 THE COURT: Is that Quill Creek? 3 0 MR. GRANT: Yes. 31 VOICE: 406. 32 MR. GRANT: 33 Q And who owns that creek, or who owns that fishing 34 site? 35 A Eagle. 36 Q Going further downstream from -- 37 A Guxw tsa'lixsit. 38 Q Is that on the railway side or the highway side? 39 A On the railway side. 40 VOICE: That's 374. 41 A That's Wii seeks fishing site and An sgeexs House. 42 MR. GRANT: 43 Q Is that the Eagle — 44 A Yes. 45 Q As well? 46 A Yes. 47 MR. GRANT: Continuing downstream — 1233 1 THE COURT: I haven't found that one, I'm sorry. Okay, my lord. If you have Quill Creek and the site there as you just follow the river down along the railway side, you'll see a triangle again on the railway side, and that's the next site that's marked on the map. All right. What was its number, please? 374. It's just below that fold. Continuing down the creek from Guxw tsa'lixsit, what is the next fishing site? Ligii 'nihla fishing site there. Whose? Ligii 'nihla. And do you know the name of the site? Yes. It's -- that place is Sxi gin k'aat. And is that the name of the creek where the site is? Yes. Okay. My lord, that's the last triangle on that 20 side of the river. 21 VOICE: Number 403. 22 MR. GRANT: Just before I proceed, what side of the river is that site on? On the railway side. Okay. Do you know a creek that's known as Lome Creek? An sgeexs. And is there a fishing site at that creek? Yes. Whose is that? Hak'w. Do you recall the name of that fishing site? Well, it's the same name. The same as the creek? Yep, Xsi An sgeexs. 2 MR. GRANT 3 4 5 6 7 THE COURT 8 MR. GRANT 9 Q 0 1 2 A 3 Q 4 A 5 6 A 7 Q 8 A 9 MR. GRANT 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A 36 37 VOICE: That's number 359. THE COURT: It says here Gitskalst(?)? 3 3 9 MR 40 41 42 GRANT: Q A 4 3 THE COURT: 44 4 5 MR. GRANT: 46 47 The witness' evidence is it's the same as the creek was called, Xsi an sgeexs. Xsi an sgeexs. I don't know how I'm supposed to record this. There are two different names given here. Well, I my guess on thatparticular one is cross off that name and put Xsi an sgeexs right on that. I'll do it in red. 1234 THE COURT: All right. Is there a number for that, please? MR. GRANT: Xsi an sgeexs, is there a number for it? VOICE: Number 359. THE COURT: Thank you. MR. GRANT: I'm marking this on the exhibit itself. THE COURT: All right. Are you going to go back up the river, Mr. Grant? You see, we've missed some. 8 MR. GRANT: Yeah. I may be going back up the river. 9 THE COURT: Should we do that now or after lunch. 10 MR. GRANT: I just wanted to ask her one question and then maybe 11 we can adjourn. THE COURT: Yes. MR. GRANT: Q The last site you gave on the railway side was Xsi gwin k'aat? A Xsi gwin k'aat. Q Okay. Do the Gitksan own other fishing sites below Xsi gwin K'aat? A On the railway side. Q Where, at Xsi gwin k'aat? A Mm-hmm, yes. Q What was the name of the village? A Well, that's the same. Q Xsi gwin k'aat? A Xsi gwin k'aat. MR. GRANT: Okay. This may be an appropriate time to adjourn. MR. PLANT: Before we do, my lord, I think that when the witness first identified that site she called it Ligii 'nihla site, or some word that I was unable to -- Which one, Xsi gwin k'aat? Yes. Do you want to give a spelling for that name? L-i-g-i-i apostrophe n-i-h-1-a. h-l-a? 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. MR. THE GRANT PLANT COURT THE TRANSLATOR: THE COURT: N-i THE TRANSLATOR MR. GRANT: Q A Q A MR. GRANT THE COURT A, yes, MR. GRANT: THE COURT: And that Ligii 'nihla is in the Eagle Clan? Yes. Which clan lived at the village Xsi gwin k'aat? Xsi gwin k'aat is Eagles. Okay. It may be an appropriate time. All right. One other thing before we adjourn, just wanted to -- going back, I found Kitwanga the map here, I think. If you see An kii is on the highway side and Kitwanga I.R. 1, Kitwanga underneath. It says Kitwanga I.R. 2. Is that where the bridge I on 1235 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. GRANT THE COURT MR. GRANT The know if across copies THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE THE is across the river? If the Court wishes I can mark it on the map. Court has where the bridge is approximately? All right, thank you. If you could, please. There's a line across the river, but I don't it's supposed to be the bridge or not. And what I've done is draw two parallel lines in red, and I'll do the same with my friend's as well. That's the present highway bridge? That's the location of the bridge across the Skeena River at the highway. Yeah. And I say this is only approximate in the sense that there's a road -- there's a dotted line like a road going down, and I think that was changed, but that's approximately where it is. All right. Should we come back at 1:30? Fine, my lord. Thank you. REGISTRAR: Order in court. This court stands adjourned until 1:30. (LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT TAKEN AT 12:35) I hereby certify the foregoing to be a true and accurate transcript of the proceedings herein transcribed to the best of my skill and ability Graham D. Parker Official Reporter United Reporting Service Ltd. COURT: GRANT: COURT: GRANT: COURT GRANT COURT 1236 1 ( 2 3 4 THE REGIST 5 6 THE COURT: 7 8 EXAMINATION 9 Q 10 11 A 12 Q 13 14 A 15 Q 16 17 A 18 MR. GRANT: 19 THE COURT: 20 21 MR. GRANT 22 THE COURT 23 MR. GRANT 24 Q 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 THE COURT 37 MR. GRANT 38 THE COURT 39 MR. GRANT 40 THE COURT 41 MR. GRANT 42 Q 43 44 45 46 A 47 MR. GRANT (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO THE LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT AT 1:30 P.M.) IAR: Order in court, still under oath. Mr. Grant? Witness, I remind you you are IN CHIEF CONTINUED BY MR. GRANT: You said earlier that in the area of Wilson Creek that was Ax dii hix fishing sites? Yes. And are there a number of fishing sites on both sides of the river? Yes. And is that Ax dii hix and Tenimgyet the same House or different? Yes, the same House. My lord — I haven't found Wilson Creek yet. I found it this morning. Okay. It is up above Cedar -- Yes. I have it, thank you. My lord, I intend to ask witnesses from that House with respect to those specific fishing sites so I am not going to pursue that further right now. Now, I'd like to refer the fishing sites that the witness referred to on Friday. I intend not to go through all of them again, but I intend to go through a select few, particularly the witness' own sites, as to the meaning of those names and the reason just as to exemplify it and I can advise the Court that at tab 19, after the names are meanings of the names. I just want to ask the witness a few of those names. That map is where again? It was -- the map was at tab 5. Yes, okay. And the names and meanings are at tab 19. Thank you. And I would, as I say, I am not going to go through all of them. One of the fishing sites that you said was Hanamuxw's was An si bilaa? An si bilaa. What does that mean? 1237 1 THE 2 3 THE 4 MR. 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 THE 2 4 MR. 25 THE 26 27 2 8 MR. 29 30 31 MR. 32 THE 33 THE 34 35 MR. 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 INTERPRETER: The rocks at that site, they look like abalone shells. Number 348. VOICE GRANT Q A Q A Q A Q A And is that the way the rocks look today? Not any more. After the 1936 and they all changes there. That was the flood in 1936? Yes. Now, I will return to ask you the history of that site, the recent history of that site. Another site that you said was yours was Gwin ap? Gwin ap. 361 on tab 19. What does that name mean? Well, it is like lot of people there and they noisy; that's why; looks like a bee, sounds like a bee, Gwin ap. And another fishing site of Hanamuxw, 362, was Gwin di sahasxw? Gwin di sahasxw. What does that name mean? Well, Interpreter. INTERPRETER: When you pull somebody over towards you. GRANT: And why was it given that name? INTERPRETER: When there is a lot of fish somebody would pull the fish over and that's what they mean by Gwin di sahasxw. A Q A GRANT: Q A GRANT: Another site of yours is Win xsidahix? Win xsidahix. And what does that name mean? That's where we get throw up that fat. INTERPRETER: COURT: I am sorry? A Throw up fat. GRANT: Q That is where we get throw up the fat? A Where we get throw up the fat. Q Now, you heard Mrs. Johnson refer to history of Wiigyet fishing site where belonging to Antgulilbix? A Yes, the same man. Q And there is a story behind that about this site? A Yes. Q Is that story considered an Adaawk or an Ant'imahlasxw? A Well, that's Ant'imahlasxw. Q And you know that story? A Yes. 123? 1 Q 2 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 THE COURT 7 A 8 MR. GRANT 9 Q 10 A 11 12 MR. GRANT 13 14 THE VOICE 15 MR. GRANT 16 17 THE trans: 18 MR. GRANT 19 Q 20 21 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 MR. GRANT 26 THE INTER 27 28 MR. GRANT 29 Q 30 31 32 A 33 Q 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 THE COURT 38 MR. GRANT 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 43 44 45 46 47 Just a moment, my lord. You described another fishing site of yours Wilsa k'awts? That's when they pick the wild roots there. The wild roots? Yes. Wild roots or wild rose? Wild roots. Roots? There is another, call it k'awts. Gitksan language, it is k'awts. That would use carrots. So Gitksan, it is k'awts and the white people may use it as carrots. Number 387. That's the name of the site. You have the other names, the names that she gave. rOR: Yes. I wrote them down. And you referred to another name, this is right at the top on the railway side, it is 389, my lord, Win 'yaga gidax, as one of your fishing sites? Yeah. That's across the river. Yes. What's that name mean? Win 'yaga gidax. Yes. 3TER: Somebody asks question from up above. They ask if they caught any fish in the fish trap. Another fishing site, this is 346 on the list, my lord, from page one. Another fishing site you referred to is An gildipyee? That's Mool'xan's fishing site. Okay. What does that site -- that name mean? That's -- you mean that CN bridge, An gildepyee. What does that name mean? Well, there is -- walk around it, An gildepyee. Where there is water around it. Where you walk around it? Yes. Where you walk around. Now, I'd like to have the exhibit for identification 29. I refer you to tab 19 from the words numbered from 345 to 397 inclusive. Do you recall going through these words in Exhibit 29 with myself and checking that the meaning of the words as it is listed here? 1239 THE MR. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 MR. 17 18 19 THE 2 0 MR. 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 THE 34 MR. 35 36 37 THE 38 THE 39 THE 4 0 MR. 41 42 43 44 45 4 6 MR. 47 THE A Q A Q A Q A COURT: GRANT: Q A Q A GRANT: COURT GRANT Q THE MR. An gildepyee. Yes. There are many fishing sites listed here? Yeah. You reviewed them with myself last week? Yes. And those meanings were correct? Yes. That's 345 to the end. No, 345, my lord, to 397 inclusive. But you reviewed all the meanings of these words and you had them translated? Yeah. I read them out to you and you corrected them? Yeah, okay. Okay. I'd ask that those be marked as well, that is, an exhibit, my lord, exhibit for identification. We will deal with it later. Yes, all right. Now, a few of those words I'd just like to ask you about. One of them was the fishing sites at Andimaul which was on the map, Exhibit 31 for Identification, referred to An luu oo'la? A An luu oo'la. Q What does that name mean? Number 351, my lord. A Did you understand? INTERPRETER: The rope that is left over from the fish trap is wrapped around and stashed. A Put it on. GRANT: The rope that is left from the fish trap is put around and stashed? INTERPRETER: Wrapped and stashed. GRANT: Q What is it stashed in? What's it put in? A An luu oo'la. INTERPRETER: That's where you stash things. COURT: In a catch? INTERPRETER: Mm-hmm. GRANT: Q Now, was there a fish trap at Andimaul? Were there fish traps used at Andimaul? A The railway side? Q Yes? A Yeah. They use for spring, and you talking about -- GRANT: Yes. Were fish traps, if you wish -- INTERPRETER: Yes, they do. 1240 1 MR. GRANT 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 7 8 THE COURT 9 10 THE INTER 11 THE COURT 12 THE INTER 13 THE COURT 14 MR. GRANT 15 Q 16 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 22 23 24 A 25 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 Q 31 32 A 33 Q 34 35 36 A 37 38 39 40 Q 41 42 A 43 Q 44 45 46 A 47 Q Did you see -- So mixed up. It's okay. Yeah. I seen that, you know. The old people keep that trap. It was there when I was small; still there. What is that word that she just said? She said, "when I was small" and then she used another word. 3TER: It is still there. It is still there? 3TER: Yeah. Thank you. Would you say it is the fishing trap that was there when you were small? Yes. Is it there today? No. I'd like to ask you some questions about the fishing, the laws of the Gitksan regarding the fishing. Can a person use the fishing site of another House? Yes. The permission -- they ask their permission to use and they call it duubin. That's the word for asking the permission? Yeah. That's to use a fishing site? Duubin. Do people from other Houses use Hanamuxw's fishing sites today? Yes. Is that part of -- is there a reason why you let those people use the fishing sites or Hanamuxw lets them use the fishing sites? Because we didn't use it and let them use it for -- then they might need it, you know. The fish using -- will let them use it but Hanamuxw was still owns that fishing site. And those are the ones you have described Friday and today? Yes. As Hanamuxw's? Now, you went to a fishing site I believe with your Grandmother, you described earlier? Oh, yeah. Which fishing site did you go and stay with your 1241 1 2 A 3 MR. GRANT 4 THE VOICE 5 MR. GRANT 6 Q 7 8 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 14 A 15 16 17 18 19 Q 20 A 21 THE COURT 22 23 24 MR. GRANT 25 Q 26 27 28 29 A 30 Q 31 A 32 Q 33 34 A 35 36 Q 37 38 A 39 40 41 42 43 44 MR. GRANT 45 THE TRANS 46 MR. GRANT 47 THE VOICE Grandmother at? That's Gwin di sahasxw, right across from Gwin ap. Right across from Gwin ap. 362 and 361. And did you see your Grandfather or your Grandmother, how they fished at Gwin di sahasxw? How did they fish when you were young there? When they drying the fish, there is a smokehouse. Did they use a net there? Oh, yes. Was it always the Chief who did the fishing or other people in the House? Well, the other people, but my Grandmother didn't want to bother young people. That's the reason why they were always go to the smokehouse by themselves, but the rest of the family on the highway side is Gwin ap. Yes? Yeah. : I don't know what her answer is, Mr. Grant. You asked whether the Chief does the fishing or someone else and I am not sure what her answer is. Okay. I think I understand it. Maybe I could lead -- clarify it. You said your Grandmother fished at Gwin di sahasxw, the site across from Gwin ap? Yes. And she was Hanamuxw? Mm-hmm. Then you said other members at the site -- on the other member's site? Yes. Gwin ap, that's nephews and nieces go there, Gwin ap. How did you get to the fishing site at Gwin di sahasxw when you went there with your Grandmother? Well, the ones from Gwin ap, they used to go across and get the fish and Gwinsi dii and Wilsa k'awts, they use. But only three fishing site the Grandmother used on the other site, Win Xsidahix and Gwin di sahasxw, and An si bilaa on the highway side. : Did you get those, Madam Interpreter? LATOR: Some of them. : Can you read them? : I can read them out but not necessarily in the same 1242 1 2 MR. GRANT 3 Q 4 5 A 6 Q 7 A 8 Q 9 10 A 11 MR. GRANT 12 THE TRANS 13 MR. GRANT 14 Q 15 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 MR. GRANT 20 THE VOICE 21 MR. GRANT 22 Q 23 24 A 25 Q 26 27 28 29 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 Q 34 35 A 36 Q 37 38 A 39 40 41 42 Q 43 A 44 Q 45 A 46 Q 47 order. Your Grandmother used or did your Grandmother use Wilsa k'awts? The people from Gwin ap, they use it. That's 387, and Gwin ap is 361, and Win Xsidahix? Win Xsidahix. That was the people from the other side that used it? Yeah. : That's — LATOR: 38 8. 388. And you already described Gwin di sahasxw, that was the one that your Grandmother used? Yes, and I gave that An si bilaa. And the second last one was 389? Yes. An si bilaa. 348. Those last three sites were used by your Grandmother? Yes. Now, when Mary Johnson gave evidence, she described the event of the snowfall at Tarn lax amit and talked about somebody having a spring salmon, and I think they said something to the mountain or to the sky and then it started to snow; they mocked the snow? Yes. And you're familiar with that history? Yes. Okay. Now, is there an event called, which could be translated as the first salmon ceremony? Oh, yes. And is that what that young man was involved in at that time? Well, they deliver the cooked fish and they take the cooked fish and they show it to the creator and that's the springtime, and that night when it is snowing and there is everything destroyed. Have you seen this first salmon ceremony? Oh, yeah. Yourself? That's what my Grandmother always do that. Can you tell the Court what was done with that first salmon that was caught? 1243 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 5 6 7 8 Q 9 10 11 A 12 Q 13 14 A 15 16 17 Q 18 19 20 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 Q 25 26 A 27 Q 28 29 A 3 0 MR. GRANT 31 THE TRANS 32 MR. GRANT 33 THE COURT 34 35 MR. GRANT 36 Q 37 A 38 39 40 Q 41 A 42 Q 43 A 44 Q 45 46 A 47 Q They cover the spring salmon with a mat. Mm-hmm? And they used fireweed, you know, on the top. They put it over the spring salmon and the next day -- and they cut it up and cooked it and they would send out, you know, like the Village taste no matter how small it is but that's tradition. Now, you said they put the fireweed from on top of the fireweed. Is this the fluffy part of the fireweed? Yes. Why would they put that on top of the first spring salmon? Well, they talk to the creator for that. They ask more. They be plenty fish to be plenty in the summertime. That's the reason why it is there. When you say it was shared out in the Village, was it shared out -- for example, if Hanamuxw caught the first spring salmon, would it only go to the Giskaast or the Fireweed or would it go to the Frog? It doesn't matter. To all the people? All the people from the Village. Is the first salmon still shared like this in Kitsequkla? Some of them, not all of them. Have you yourself received part of the first salmon catch this year? Well, that's what Gwis gyen was doing. : Gwis gyen. LATOR: Number 22. : That's Stanley Williams. : 22. What about him? I am sorry, I didn't catch what you said about him. The Court doesn't know what he was doing? Well, that's what they doing. You know, the time he got fish in there, amxsiwaa, they leave it out, the fresh fish they got down there. So did he give you fish this year? Oh, yes. Just this weekend he gave you fish? Mm-hmm. And that's part of this sharing of the first salmon catch, is it? Yes. In your presence or to your knowledge did your 1244 1 2 3 4 5 A 6 7 8 MR. GRANT 9 10 THE COURT 11 12 13 14 15 MR. GRANT 16 Q 17 18 19 20 21 A 22 Q 23 24 A 25 Q 26 27 28 A 29 Q 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 Q 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 39 A 40 Q 41 A 42 Q 43 44 A 45 Q 46 A 4 7 MR. GRANT Grandmother Hanamuxw or Jeffrey Johnson ever agree to allow the Government of Canada regulate their fisheries? You don't understand. Would you translate the question? Well, Jeffrey don't agree with the Fishery so my Grandmother and all the rest of the people today, they don't agree with that. Has your daughter Hanamuxw agreed to let the Government of Canada regulate Hanamuxw's fishery? Is that a question that this witness can answer, Mr. Grant? Hanamuxw is alive and, apart from a broken arm I understand she suffered recently, she is able to give evidence. How can this witness say what her daughter might or might not have done? Yes. I should rephrase the question. Have you been involved in any decision by your House to let the Government of Canada regulate your fishery? Let me rephrase it. Have you agreed to let the Government of Canada regulate Hanamuxw -- your fishery? I should say no. You talked just a few moments ago about fish traps at Andimaul and you said you saw these fish traps? Yes. Is this trap what is known as a benna? Is there a name for the type of fish trap that you saw in Gitksan? Oh, you talking about benna. Benna? Yeah. Benna? I thought it was benna. Talking about benna? Yeah. And did you see those fish traps? Yes. I am showing you a photograph. Do you see a benna in that photograph? Benna. Can you point it out what the benna is? Benna supposed to be in the water here. Supposed to be in the water but in this photo it isn't. Can you point out what the benna is? Supposed to be right here. Is that it? Mm-hmm. I'd ask that this be marked as an exhibit, the next 1245 THE MR. THE THE MR. 9 MR. PLANT 10 11 12 MR GRANT: 13 14 15 16 17 18 THE 19 MR. 20 21 THE 22 2 3 MR. 24 2 5 MR. 2 6 MR. 27 28 29 30 31 32 exhibit, my lord, and I would mark with an X where the benna is where she pointed. COURT: Mr. Plant, no problem? MACAULAY: I have no objection, my lord. COURT: All right. Exhibit? REGISTRAR: Thirty-two, thank you. GRANT: And I would ask if that exhibit could be marked or referred to as a photograph of the -- I think that, if I might interrupt, should be identified at this point as photograph of benna. I take it that's what my friend is going to ask for. I would ask that it be marked as it is on the back which is a description from the Provincial Archives because it will be referred to in the evidence of other witnesses led by Mr. Rush. That's all. This witness isn't going to identify where it is or anything. It is just a matter of -- I am not sure what the subject of controversy is. There is no subject of controversy. The witness has identified one small object. She says the photograph shows a benna. Mr. Grant wants to add something to the title. Yes. That's all I want to do is add it to the title. I have no objection to that. Ask photograph of a benna near the bridge at Moricetown. (EXHIBIT 32 - PHOTOGRAPH OF BENNA NEAR BRIDGE AT MORICETOWN) COURT: PLANT: COURT: GRANT: PLANT: GRANT: MR. GRANT: Now, could you describe for the Court -- 33 THE COURT: I am sorry, is benna, b-e-n-a? 34 THE INTERPRETER: Yes. It is two n's. 35 MR. GRANT: I have a copy of it for the Court. 3 6 THE COURT: Thank you. 37 MR. GRANT: 38 Q Can you tell the Court, you saw the benna being used 39 at Andimaul; is that right? 40 A Yes. 41 Q Can you tell the Court how a benna worked, how is a 42 fish caught with that? 43 A Exactly the same on that picture there. 4 4 Q Mm-hmm? 45 A There is a pole to hold that benna in the water. 46 Q There is a pole to hold it in the water? 47 A Yeah, and there is a man there. Yuusxw they call 1 2 3 4 Q 5 6 A 7 8 Q 9 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 26 27 28 Q 29 A 30 31 32 33 34 Q 35 A 36 37 38 Q 39 A 40 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 45 A 46 Q 47 A 1246 it, call on the pole and the fish was in that benna and they close that, you know, and took the fish out of the water. Well, from the photograph, that appears to be a circular type of basket? Yeah. This is the pole holding the basket in the water. You are pointing to the angled pole behind the man standing right behind by the river? Mm-hmm, or this one I guess. Or the other one? Yeah, they use two. Is the opening the same as is the size of this basket the same at both ends? Yeah, the mouth is open. You indicated the mouth is open like this? Yes, and the hole is -- hole in that in the water. They call it yuusxw. And is the other end of it closed? Closed, yeah. How many fish could be caught in a benna? Just one, just one. Did your Grandfather use this while you were alive? Sometimes. There is -- sure. They show the young people how to use that benna. That's the reason why they use it, showing the young people, young boys to handle that thing. What were they made out of? That's leek, they call it. I don't know what the white man calls it; looks like a fireweed but it is not the fireweeds. And they pick it in the fall in September and they dried it and it is what the woman, they work on in wintertime. And what were they -- was it tied together or -- Well, they leek. What they call it gyaaxw, when they make a thread like and that's what they used; really, really strong like nylon. Is that made out of cedar? No, no. That's what they use, the leek, just like a fireweed. Okay. That's what they tied with, too? Yeah, that's what they used. Peter Johnson, your Grandfather was, you have described, from Gwashlam's House in Kitwancool? Yes. Did you see him fishing in the Kitwancool area? Yes. 1247 1 Q 2 A 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q 10 A 11 Q 12 MR. GRANT 13 14 THE COURT 15 16 MR. GRANT 17 THE COURT 18 19 MR. GRANT 20 21 22 23 24 THE COURT 25 A 26 MR. GRANT 27 THE COURT 28 MR. GRANT 29 Q 30 31 32 A 33 Q 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 A 39 Q 40 41 42 A 43 THE INTER 44 A 45 THE INTER 46 47 MR. GRANT How would he fish at Kitwancool Lake? They put my -- that's my Grandfather's brother, his name is Richard Doust, and they used to go there and they put that little canoe in that creek and the fish will jump, you know, when you go to the lake. And it is no time when -- when that canoe is full of fish, and they take it away from the place and take the fish out. Did they put the canoe in the lake or in the creek? In the creek. But near the lake. Did you see your Grandfather or others at Kitwancool using hooks in the river to catch fish? I am sorry. Did you not mention Kitwancool Lake a moment ago? Yes. We are now talking about something different than a moment ago, you said the river. Maybe I have to read the transcript myself. Talking about, would put the canoe in the creek near Kitwancool Lake, that's what she just described. I asked if it was in the creek or the lake and she said it was in the creek at the lake. Are we talking about fishing in Kitwancool Lake? Yes. That's where the canoe was used. Thank you. Now, I am referring to Kitwancool River, thank you. Did you see your Grandfather or others use hooks for fishing in Kitwancool River? They use it in the lake, yeah. And were they made of wood or -- Yes. -- or metal? Yes, red cedar. Red cedar? Yes. How was -- what did your Grandmother use to cut the fish when they were caught? What did she use for a knife? They use that ha k'ohla. 3TER: Something to get the fish with. Ha k'ohla they call it. 3TER: It is called ha k'ohla, something used to cut the fish with. there. 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 9 10 11 12 13 A 14 Q 15 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 20 21 Q 22 A 23 24 Q 25 26 27 A 28 29 Q 30 A 31 Q 32 33 A 34 Q 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 42 43 44 45 Q 46 A 47 Q 1248 Do you recall what they were made of? Can't remember. Mussell. Mussell, mussell shells? Mm-hmm, yes. Did you see those? Yes. Now, I wanted to ask you, you referred on Friday to some of the fishing sites that you say were destroyed. Now, the evidence you have given about the location of fishing sites, you were told where different people owned fishing sites by your Grandmother? Yes. And you were -- did she teach you about fishing sites that had been destroyed? Yes. Did she tell you where those fishing sites were? Yes. That's what she did, and the CN bridge across the Skeena, there is three across the river, that's Gwis gyen fishing site. Yes? There are three of them but they didn't mention the name because they are not using it anymore. I just want to try to assist the Court as to where they are. Are those right at where the bridge is or are they across from the Village, those three sites? That's on the highway side right below the bridge. That's three fishing sites were destroyed Right below the CN bridge across the Skeena? Yes. Did your Grandmother tell you of Hanamuxw's fishing sites destroyed? Two of them lost in Gwin ap. And that's where Gwin ap was? Did she tell you of any of Xsgogim lax ha? Sites are underneath the bridge there. That's the CN bridge? Yes. Was there a name for that site? Well, there is -- when they destroyed it, they never mentioned the name but there still fishing site there, but it is not -- the fish can't go there because there is too many rocks and the cement was there, you know, and the fish not use it anymore. That was when the CN bridge was put in, was it? Yes. What about the fishing sites of the Hanamuxw at Gwin 1 2 A 3 4 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 9 A 10 Q 11 12 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 18 19 20 A 21 22 23 Q 24 25 A 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 31 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 Q 37 A 38 Q 39 A 4 0 THE VOICE 41 MR. GRANT 42 Q 43 44 A 45 Q 46 47 A 1249 ap, how were they destroyed? Well, that's before the riverboat comes up and they winding the river. They not the same after, before the riverboat. And these two sites, are they able to be used now? No -- yeah, not used anymore. So they are different than Gwin ap but they are near Gwin ap? Yes. And Gwis gyen's three sites that you say were destroyed that were near the bridge, how were they destroyed? Before the riverboat comes up. When they were winding the river for the riverboat? Yes. Now, when your mother taught you about the fishing sites, did she tell you anything about Chiefs putting markers at those fishing sites, like iron posts? Well, that's what they did, you know, and Mr. Loring was here and then they advised the people to put the reserve on a fishing site. Now, did you see iron posts at any of the fishing sites? I did see it in my Grandmother's smokehouse. And was that at -- which fishing site was that? That's my Grandmother Hanamuxw. Was that at Gwin di sahasxw? Yes, Gwin di sahasxw, and I think there was in the other side of lax wii t'in, that was in -- was still there -- iron post -- iron post was still there. And this was the fishing site? Alayst. That you identified this morning? Mm-hmm. It was the fishing site near Boulder Creek? Yes. You saw that iron post there? Yeah. 378. I'd like to ask you a little bit more about An si bilaa? An si bilaa? Yeah. You say that's your fishing site. How did Hanamuxw acquire that fishing site? Well, that 'Niitsxw was killed, you know. Ha'atxw 1250 1 2 3 MR. GRANT 4 5 THE COURT 6 7 MR. GRANT 8 9 10 THE COURT 11 MR. PLANT 12 13 14 MR. GRANT 15 THE TRANS 16 17 MR. GRANT 18 THE TRANS 19 THE COURT 20 THE TRANS 21 THE COURT 22 THE TRANS 23 THE COURT 24 MR. GRANT 25 Q 26 27 28 A 29 30 Q 31 A 32 33 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 A 45 MR. GRANT 46 47 MR. GRANT was trying -- wanted to marry his sister, 'Niitsxw's sister. : Can you give the spellings of those two names? They are not on the list. : Before you give that, what site are we talking about? : An si bilaa, 348. It is on tab 5. It would be the first name on the right side of the river, looking at the map. : All right. : Also have some ideas of the basis of the witness' knowledge concerning this. I take it it happened before her time? : Yes. Can you give the spellings of those words? LATOR: '-N-i-i-t-s-x-w, and I am not too sure about the second word. Can I ask her? : Yes. You mentioned, I think it was Ha'atxw. LATOR: H-a-'-a-t-x-w. : I am sorry, H-a-' -- LATOR: H-a-'-a-t-x-w. : I didn't get the first one. LATOR: '-N-i-i-t-s-x-w. : What do those words mean? Those were people's names that she referred to. Before we proceed, did your Grandmother tell you about how Hanamuxw acquired An si bilaa? That's the reason why, they -- I mean the fishing site. An si bilaa? And she taught you that? Yeah, because they were -- her niece were killed. That's the reason why Ha'atxw relation to give that fishing site to Hanamuxw House? Ha'atxw from -- And he was a Frog? Yes. From what House? Tom Campbell's House. That was Luutkudziiwas? Yes. 'Niitsxw was from Hanamuxw's House? Yes. You say that Ha'atxw killed 'Niitsxw? Yes. : Are these words the words that we are using that were words spelled a moment ago? : Yes. They were people's names. 1 THE COURT 2 MR. GRANT 3 4 THE TRANS 5 MR. GRANT 6 Q 7 8 A 9 Q 10 11 A 12 13 14 Q 15 16 A 17 Q 18 19 A 20 21 Q 22 23 A 24 Q 25 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 30 Q 31 A 32 33 Q 34 35 A 36 Q 37 38 39 A 40 Q 41 A 42 Q 43 44 45 A 46 Q 47 1251 Who killed who? Ha'atxw killed 'Niitsxw. You can give the numbers from Luutkudziiwas. rOR: Luutkudziiwas is number 44 and Hanamuxw was 33. Okay. Before this killing, did An si bilaa belong to Luutkudziiwas' House? Yes. Did your Grandmother tell you what led to that killing, why Ha'atxw killed 'Niitsxw? Well, 'Niitsxw was refused him to marry his sister and that's the reason why they killed him, Ha'atxw did. 'Niitsxw refused to let Ha'atxw marry 'Niitsxw's sister? Yes. Okay. Now, what happened to change after the killing, what happened? Well, Gawa gyanii, they make peace so that's the reason why they give that fishing site to Hanamuxw. And the Gawa gyanii is a feast for a peace settlement? Yes. Do you -- and you still -- Hanamuxw still holds An si bilaa? Yes. Will that site go back to Luutkudziiwas at any time? Sometimes when the time coming up and return it to them. Why will you return it to them? Well, that's settled. All the family will settle down and they not mad and not angry anymore. So this settlement of giving this fishing site was temporary? Yes. Now, you said sometime in the future we will give this back. Has Hanamuxw and you decided when that will happen? Yes. When will that be? When the pole raising. Now, do you recall a xsiisxw or settlement between Guxsan's House and the Eagle Clan that occurred in your lifetime? Yes. I heard about it. Were you involved in it as part of Guxsan's wil'na t'ahl? 1252 1 A 2 Q 3 4 A 5 6 7 THE COURT 8 MR. GRANT 9 Q 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 15 A 16 THE COURT 17 MR. GRANT 18 19 THE COURT 20 A 21 22 MR. GRANT 23 Q 24 25 A 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 30 31 Q 32 A 33 Q 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 38 Q 39 40 41 A 42 MR. GRANT 43 THE TRANS 44 MR. GRANT 45 Q 46 47 A Yes. And can you tell the Court what happened, what you saw happen? Well, that's why they were xsiixw killed Amaayam. That's the reason why they give Ant tk'al bakxw and Xsi kalii gajit to Guxsan's House. I haven't got any -- I understand, my lord. Amaayam was Walter Wesley? Yes. He was a member of the -- Guxsan's House. -- of Guxsan's House and he was killed by a member of the Eagle Clan? Yes. Who got murdered or killed. Walter Wesley was killed by a member of the Eagle Clan. When was this? I don't know what year but it is 19 -- I think it is 1957, I think, or '58. This was -- was this before or after your husband Phillip died? Right after Phillip died. He died in 1957. So it was right after that? Yeah. Now, as a result of that, was there -- you said there was a Gawa gyanii settlement, they announced the feast. David Wells announced this in the feast? Yes. And you witnessed this? Yes. And what was given? That's hunting ground there, they call it xsi k'alii gaj it. And was -- I think you said earlier this was a mountain, that it was in the area of a mountain, the name that you have just given? Yes. You have that spelling, madam? rOR: Mm-hmm. And can you describe where that mountain is that was given for this xsiisxw? By Richie. 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 5 6 A 7 Q 8 A 9 Q 10 11 A 12 13 14 15 Q 16 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 22 23 A 24 Q 25 A 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 Q 31 32 A 33 Q 34 35 36 37 A 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 42 43 A 44 Q 45 A 46 Q 47 A 1253 That's below Kitwanga? Yes. On the railway side of the river. Now, did your Grandmother teach you about how a Gawa gyaniia could involve the exchange of -- Boy and a girl. -- a boy and a girl? Yeah. That's how they handle the Gawa gyanii. Can you tell the Court how it was handled by the exchange of children? Well, that's what they do, you know. They tie the cedar bark on the waist and they pull in the, you know, the other is pulling the boy this way and they pulling the girl in the other side. So each House would get -- how -- what if -- did you see that in your lifetime? No, no. I am just -- just tell me that. Did your Grandmother see that? Well, I think so. Now, did she tell you, let us say in the case of a killing, which side would give the boy and which side would give the girl? Well, the ones that killing the man, it is a boy. They give a boy? Yeah. Okay. And the other side there is a girl. Is eagle down used when there was a Gawa gyanii? Yes. Did you see that in your lifetime, the use of eagle down? Oh, yeah, yeah. I'd like to ask you some questions about the type of plants or what you were taught about the type of plants that were used for medicines. Now, did your grandmother, did she use -- make medicine? Yes. And did she use it to help other people like -- Yes. Some of the other witnesses have referred to devil's club, the use of devil's club. Did your Grandmother use devil's club? Yes. Did she use it for when you were young on you? Mm-hmm, yeah. Do you still use it? Yes. 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 8 Q 9 A 10 11 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 16 A 17 Q 18 19 A 20 Q 21 22 23 A 24 Q 25 A 26 27 28 29 30 Q 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 35 36 Q 37 A 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 A 42 43 44 45 Q 46 47 A 1254 Were waterlily roots used? Well, that's a medicine too. And have you seen them being used? Yes. Yourself? What are they used for? They make medicine out of it. They boil them and they they drink it, the ones that sick, yeah. For what kind of sickness is it used? Well, any type. Well, I notice Mrs. Marsden was in the court today. That's what she was taking when she had disease. That's Mrs. Kathleen Marsden? Yes. And she used waterlily root when the she had disease? Yes. This was recent or a long time ago when she was younger? Well, she was younger. Have you heard of a plant which the Gitksan word for is melgwasxw, and I don't know if there is an English word for it? Melgwasxw, yes. Do you have a spelling of that? They don't use it for medicine. They use it for outside and show that, you know, and they use it really having their bath and they use it, like, they just soak it and they touch what they use after their bath and rub it on the skin. Do you know about the high bush cranberries? High bush cranberries. They are called cranberries? Well, they make hlaayax out of it; they whip the oolichan grease and they put the high bush cranberry in that and they eat it. So is it used for medicine too? No. It is -- that's what they use, yeah. It is used as a food? Mm-hmm, yeah. What about wild celery roots? Well, they used for when you -- you be aching, arthritis, and they cook the roots and they pound it like a paste, and you put it on and put the rocks, keep the heat in, yeah. And this is a plant that you've used and that your Grandmother used? Yes. 1255 1 Q 2 3 A 4 5 6 Q 7 A 8 9 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 14 A 15 MR. GRANT 16 THE COURT 17 A 18 THE COURT 19 MR. GRANT 20 THE COURT 21 MR. GRANT 22 Q 23 24 A 25 26 THE TRANS 27 A 28 THE TRANS 29 30 A 31 MR. GRANT 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 37 Q 38 39 A 40 THE TRANS 41 42 THE COURT 43 44 45 MR. GRANT 46 Q 47 A Do you know of -- the inner bark of the balsam tree, is it used for medicine? That's what they use when someone was hurt and the flesh was open, and that's where they used, you know, the -- taking all the infection out. How was it used that way? Well, they take the outside bark and then they white, they roll it and put it in where -- and they drain everything out. They put it in the wound? Yeah. What about the pitch of the Hemlock tree and the Jack pine? Spruce and Jack pine. The Spruce and the Jack pine? Not Hemlock. Not Hemlock. That's the trouble with leading questions, Mr. -- Yes, yes. I am just trying to move into the areas. You moved into the wrong areas. We will get back to Hemlock later. The Spruce and the Jack pine, what is it used for? When they use the pitch and put it in the -- mix it with -- they call it -- like I forgot. LATOR: They make it into a — Paste. LATOR: Gum, and they put it on the wound. That takes out -- that drains it of infection. Drains. And that's the Spruce and the Jack pine? Yes. Okay. Is the balsam pitch used like that, too? That's what I was explain it, you know, what they do and take the white inside the barks, yes. Okay. And are there -- is there a Gitksan word for this kind of medicine that you used? Sgyen they call it. Nax nogim sgyen. LATOR: That's gum that's quite -- it is a good medicine -- good medicine. : I don't think that answers your question. Your question was, what is the Indian word for this kind of medicine? Yeah, and she said sgyen? She said nax nogim sgyen. 1256 1 THE TRANS 2 MR. GRANT 3 THE TRANS 4 MR. GRANT 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 THE COURT 15 MR. GRANT 16 17 18 THE COURT 19 20 MR. GRANT 21 Q 22 23 24 25 A 26 MR. GRANT 27 28 MR. PLANT 29 30 31 32 33 34 MR. GRANT 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 THE COURT 44 45 MR. PLANT 46 47 MR. GRANT LATOR: She said nax nogim sgyen. : You have that? LATOR: Mm-hmm. : I have been asking you earlier about the fishing territories and I'd like to ask you some questions about Hanamuxw's territory, the land territories of Hanamuxw, and I would refer the Court to tab -- this is an Exhibit 29, to tab 4 and, once again, my lord, I want to say for the record that the two maps at this tab are for the assistance of the Court and I don't intend to put either of these maps to the witness but I -- what I would like to put to the witness. : Which one are you looking at first, please? : I am looking at the map that has at the top, the names along the top of it are Hax bagwootxw, Wiigyet, Xsgogimlaxha, and Guxsan. : Yes. I have it. This has been called number one in the -- that should be number one of the two maps. Now, I have a photograph or two photographs that are actually together to make a panarama, and I wonder if you recognize that picture, this is -- this is Xsu wil luu negwit? Xsu wil luu negwit and Xsan. : I'd ask that that be marked as the exhibit, that be marked as the next exhibit? : Perhaps before it is marked, we could have some idea of who took these photographs, when they were taken, what other witness that was there or the usual sort of questions that one asks before a photograph is identified. I didn't see these photographs until this morning. : I wrote to my friend and I advised him that it was late on Friday when I first knew of the existence of these photographs and I had them delivered to him this morning but the photographs were not taken in the presence of the witness. They are only there -- these photograph can be marked as an exhibit for identification and the person who took the photograph can be later called. It is a photograph of the territory and that's -- : Well, if the witness can identify it as a likeness, it doesn't matter if she was there or not of course. : I also have a concern about when the photograph was taken. : Yes. I have been instructed the photograph was 1257 1 2 3 THE COURT: 4 5 MR. GRANT: 6 THE COURT: 7 8 MR. GRANT: 9 THE COURT: 10 MS. KOENIGS 11 12 13 MR. PLANT: 14 15 16 MR. GRANT: 17 18 19 20 THE COURT: 21 MR. GRANT: 22 23 THE COURT: 24 25 MR. GRANT: 26 27 THE COURT: 28 MR. GRANT: 29 30 31 32 THE COURT: 33 MR. GRANT: 34 35 36 37 THE COURT: 38 39 MR. GRANT: 40 41 42 43 THE COURT 44 MR. GRANT 45 THE COURT 46 MR. GRANT 47 THE COURT taken in 1983, and I will be able to provide my friend with a specific date. Is it possible to see on the map where this territory is? I can point out that territory to the Court. I'd be glad if you would; north of the river, south of the river or where are we? I will do that for the Court on the larger map. Anything that puts me in contact. Ms. Koenigsberg? BERG: If I could just ask for clarification. I was given two photocopies. I don't know what's been put in. And perhaps one more point of clarification. These aren't on the plaintiff's list of documents then I take it? No. As I indicated this will be put on obviously a list and it came to my attention these two photographs and there is an additional three and they are not on the list of documents. All right. Can I see where this property is? Yes. I have another copy of the photograph for the Court as well. Show me again where Hazelton is or Smithers or something? Yes, my lord. I will do that. I just want to get my bearings. Here is Hazelton right here. Yes. This going down along here and down here, this is the Skeena River going out there, the heavy darker line. Basically there is a lot of markings around it. This is Kitsegukla here. Yes. This L shaped, it is like a reverse L, is the map that you are looking at. It is below Kitsegukla and the witness will describe where it is in relationship. There is another territory between it and Kitsegukla. Yes. There is other territories up here and the Kitsegukla River flows in through here. But this is Kitsegukla on the Skeena right there so this map, this territory is here. Where is north on that? North is up that way. Well, that -- sorry, if I am having some difficulty. Yes. The two norths, if you put the two norths in the 125? 1 2 3 MR. GRANT 4 THE COURT 5 6 7 MR. GRANT 8 9 THE COURT 10 MR. GRANT 11 12 THE COURT 13 MR. GRANT 14 THE REGIS1 15 16 17 18 MR. GRANT 19 Q 20 21 22 23 24 A 25 Q 26 27 28 A 29 Q 30 31 32 A 33 Q 34 35 A 36 MR. GRANT 37 38 THE VOICE 39 MR. GRANT 40 41 THE COURT 42 MR. GRANT 43 44 THE COURT 45 MR. GRANT 46 47 same direction, the N looks backwards, the mirror image of the L. No, my lord. Yeah. You got me again on the norths. Yes. That seems to fit. That's better, thank you. All right. Thank you. Now, I'd like to show you that last exhibit, I think it is 32 . Yes. No, that one there. I'd ask that these photographs be marked as the next exhibit? That's the composite. That's the composites, two photographs. Exhibit 35. REGISTRAR: Thirty-three. (EXHIBIT 33 - Two Photographs) Now, I'd like you to -- you were showing the Court when you identified it that you knew this photograph. Could you point for the Court as to where the creeks are that are the boundaries of your territory? This is. This is all one continuous photograph here. Okay. There is another photograph which has Stakhaiyt on it. This is the photograph which had Xsin non? Oh, yeah, Xsin non. So there is a ridge in these two photographs and the creek bottom in the foreground is Xsuwii Luu Negwit and Xsin non is on the other side of that ridge? Yes. Now, the ridge that's in these two photographs, whose territory is that, that whole ridge? Part Gwagl'lo, and that's Hanamuxw. And that's Hanamuxw there. I just repeated the answer so you could hear. Xsuwii Luu Negwit is 422. What I propose, my lord, is to mark with a one pointing to where Xsuwii Luu Negwit is. What is? And number two, pointing to the -- do you see where Xsin non is? Where is Xsin non? And I will write reference to the Court now to tie those to the exhibit. If you look at the map with the label at the bottom, you see facing the 1259 1 2 3 THE COURT 4 MR. GRANT 5 Q 6 7 A 8 THE COURT 9 A 10 MR. GRANT 11 A 12 MR. GRANT 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 17 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 25 A 26 THE COURT 27 MR. GRANT 28 29 MR. PLANT 30 MR. GRANT 31 THE COURT 32 33 MR. GRANT 34 35 36 THE COURT 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 MR. GRANT 44 45 46 47 right-hand side, the right-hand boundary, this is where it is going up and down Xsuwii Luu Negwit? Yes. Just go below the name Xsgogimlaxha, you see the -- you see the name Xsin non? No, that's Hanamuxw. Xsin non. Yes. That's a creek, is it? Yes. Xsin non is a creek. (Nod). Miss Ryan, I wasn't indicating -- Yeah. I wasn't indicating it was another territory; I was just trying to show the Court where it was on the map? Yes, I know. And Xsin non, is that a boundary of your territory? Yes. What about Xsuwii Luu Negwit? The same. Do you know the name of a mountain known as 'Wii lo'op? That's 'Wii lo'op. W-i-i-1-o-o-p. Yes. It is on the map. You can see it. It is angled. I am sorry, I didn't hear the name, 'Wii lo'op. Yes. It is 'Wii lo'op, 'W-i-i-1-o-'-o-p. Right at the instep. If this is a boot, it is at the instep. I see, my lord. Is my friend able to tell me where this montage of photographs was taken from so I could orient it to the map? I think, gentlemen, that might be a useful subject for you to have a discussion about in the adjournment, and we will take the afternoon adjournment now. If it is convenient, I thought we might sit to 4:30, there is three reporters here today, but counsel can talk about that and speak with the witness and speak to the reporters, too. Yes. 1260 1 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court stands adjourned for 15 2 minutes. 3 4 (RECESS TAKEN AT 3:48 P.M.) 5 6 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 7 a true and accurate transcript of the 8 proceedings herein, transcribed to 9 the best of my skill and ability. 10 11 12 13 14 TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter. 15 United Reporting Service Ltd. 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 xh2 0. Ryan (for Plaintiff) 1261 1 2 REGISTRAR 3 THE COURT 4 MR. GRANT 5 6 THE COURT 7 MR. GRANT 8 9 10 11 12 13 THE COURT 14 MR. GRANT 15 16 17 18 19 Q 20 21 22 A 23 Q 24 25 A 26 MR. GRANT 27 28 29 30 THE COURT 31 32 33 MR. GRANT 34 35 36 37 38 THE COURT 39 MR. GRANT 40 THE COURT 41 MR. GRANT 42 43 Q 44 45 46 47 A (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 3:05) Order in court. Mr. Grant. Yes, my lord, I have made inquiries and I have the exhibit for that -- the map is at tab 5. Map Number 1? Map Number 1 that we were referring to. I could put an X on it in red for the court as to where the picture was taken from or that -- or those two pictures were taken from. And I showed this to counsel. Okay. And what I have done is I've done two lines going out to sort of show that -- The direction the camera was pointed? Yes, the general viewing. And that's the -- that's the -- for the record that X on that photo or map 1 on tab 4 of Exhibit 29 is the -- shows the viewing of which Exhibit 3 was taken -- Exhibit 33 was taken from. Now, I wish to show you another photograph or another series of three photographs. And do you recognize those photographs? Stekyoden. Stekyoden is the mountain here you are referring to? Yeah. Gas la 'am, Stak haiyt. Gas la 'am. I would ask that this be marked as the next exhibit, this series of three photographs. Or actually it maybe appropriate to mark the previous exhibit as 33A and this as 33B, my lord. All right. (EXHIBIT 33A: Photographs) (EXHIBIT 33B: Series of Three Photographs) For the record, the second name the witness gave is 421, that is the -- there seems to be 421 on page 7 of tab 19. It's the first of those. And she gave the name -- it is also known Tass Holtxwit. That's the name, for the record, that was given. What's the number again? 421. The first 421 on page 7. What is that? What is it that she described? I was just going to have her point it out to the court. The reason I have to bring it back is we just had to see if you could identify the picture. Now, you can tell the judge what -- what's in the picture. This is Stekyoden. 1262 1 Q 2 3 4 5 6 A 7 THE COURT 8 MR. GRANT 9 10 MR. PLANT 11 12 13 14 MR. GRANT 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 A 23 24 25 Q 26 27 THE COURT 28 THE VOICE 29 MR. GRANT 30 31 THE TRANS 32 THE COURT 33 THE TRANS 34 THE COURT 35 MR. GRANT 36 37 38 Q 39 40 A 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 MR. PLANT 45 46 THE COURT 47 MR. GRANT Could you point to him where you were referring to Stekyoden? There is three pictures: One on the top and two on the bottom. My understanding is the top picture fits over to the -- goes over to the -- is a continuation. Yeah. This one. What is it, a mountain? Yes. Just one moment. I will provide one for the court. Now, what I will do -- Before you do -- I am sorry to interrupt, my lord, the witness has identified two features on the photographs. I would like to have them -- I would like to be able to make a note of where they are. I am going to return to that for sure. I just wanted to have it so the witness could see how the photographs fit together. The top one is on the top is on the -- should be on the left-hand side like this, my lord. If you can see, the top photograph should be to the left of the second. Now, if you see it that way, can you show where Stekyoden is? This one. It's on the right-side Txas lax aatxwit and there is a boundary line by the creek they call Xsiluu Saadit. Now, possibly Mr. Plant was here. I will put an one where she referred to as Stekyoden. That's 421? Xsiluu Saadit is 419. Stekyoden is not on the list. Maybe you could give a spelling for the court. rOR: S-T-E-K-Y-O-D-E-N. D-E-N? rOR: D-E-N. That's not 421? No, that's the name of the mountain at the end. I will put a number 2 above. I just want to be sure it's right. The next name you gave was Tass Holtxwit. The name of the ridge further along, what's that name? Txas lax aatxwit. Now, can you just point to that on the photograph? Here. That's the ridge along the right. And I will -- It takes up the whole of the extreme right photograph as identified by the witness. That's been marked number 2, is it? That's been marked number 2. I will draw a line 1263 1 2 THE COURT 3 MR. GRANT 4 Q 5 6 A 7 8 Q 9 THE VOICE 10 MR. GRANT 11 THE VOICE 12 MR. GRANT 13 Q 14 15 A 16 Q 17 18 19 20 THE COURT 21 MR. GRANT 22 THE COURT 23 MR. GRANT 24 25 A 26 MR. GRANT 27 28 MR. PLANT 29 30 31 32 33 THE COURT 34 MR. GRANT 35 36 THE COURT 37 38 MR. GRANT 39 40 THE COURT 41 42 43 MR. GRANT 44 THE COURT 45 MR. GRANT 46 4 7 THE COURT: along it. The name of that ridge is? It's 421 on tab 19. Now, then, you referred to a place that was the Boundary. Can you see that on the photograph? That's where Xsiluu Saadit is and that's boundary line. And what number was that? What was the one? Xsiluu Saadit. Number 419. Number 419. Now, in this photograph can you see where Xsiluu Saadit comes down? There is a mountain here, Xsiluu Saadit. And I put a 3 -- I should put it right on the photograph as I have done with the other two. I put a 3 above where she has -- she has pointed with an arrow down. That's a boundary, is it? Yes. What is 419? Is that boundary, what kind of a -- is that a creek or a mountain or what is it? Creek. I would ask if you could pass that up to the court and you can show where the markings are. My lord, when the witness is identifying Stekyoden, my recollection is that she pointed across most of the ridge which is at the top of the first photograph on the left. That would be where I would have my number 1. The ridge shown -- I will refer the witness to that after you have had a chance to look at this. All right. How far down does the line go on number 3, halfway down? Well, I have just drawn the arrow down. The witness went right down the photograph on that. What is that at the bottom, is that ground fog or is that a lake? I expect it's mist or fog or something. Yeah, that's mist. It's not a lake? No. In fact, that's over the -- would be approximately over the Skeena River. All right. 1264 1 MR. GRANT 2 Q 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 13 Q 14 15 16 A 17 18 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 24 MR. PLANT 25 26 27 28 29 THE COURT 30 31 MR. PLANT 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 MR. GRANT 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Now, on the photograph on the top of Exhibit 33B just to be clear here, can you point out to where -- just mark -- show with your finger where Stekyoden is. You pointed to this and Mr. Plant said you pointed all the way along. Just to be clear, I can't recall what you did. Is Stekyoden one peak or does it go along a mountain? On the -- by the Sedy, Stekyoden. It's by Sedy Lake? Yes. And down there it's Gwaans' mountain there. Txas si lax aatxwit what they call it. The witness was pointing to the ridge that is under the number 2 on the line. Does Stekyoden go all the way to the end of that mountain? Stekyoden is right there Xsiluu Saadit. Spookw can't go over the creek at Xsiluu Saadit. That's the boundary line between Spookw? Spookw and Wii'goob'l, Wolf and Frog Clan. And who is on the other side of that creek? Gwaans is on the other side and Spookw on this side and then Wii'goob'l. I apologize for the interruption, my but my friend still hasn't, with respect, satisfactorily cleared the problem of point number 1. The last time the witness pointed the location of Stekyoden. It was to the left of number 3 -- of the number 3. That highest peak in any of these points show in this photograph. She passed her finger back and forth the whole ridge there, my lord. And I don't have a big concern about this, but my friend has put the number 1 in a deliberate place. The witness has never pointed her finger at that place in particular. She has passed her hand across the whole photograph and, with respect, that's how I have interpreted her evidence of identification of Stekyoden on this photograph which is Exhibit 33. Well, my understanding was she had pointed there. But I will tape it together because what happened the second time I put it to her was there was only the two photographs and the one up above and I think she is confused because I moved these photographs. So what I will do is I will tape this and we will try it one more time. 1265 1 THE COURT 2 3 4 MR. GRANT 5 THE COURT 6 7 MR. PLANT 8 9 10 11 12 13 THE COURT 14 MR. PLANT 15 16 17 THE COURT 18 19 MR. GRANT 20 21 22 23 24 THE COURT 25 MR. GRANT 26 THE COURT 27 MR. GRANT 28 THE COURT 29 MR. GRANT 30 THE COURT 31 MR. GRANT 32 Q 33 34 35 36 37 A 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 42 43 A 44 Q 45 A 46 47 Well, the only question is whether Stekyoden is the left-hand ridge on the top photograph or whether it includes the peak, is that the problem here? Yes. All right. Let's see if the witness can help us out in that. Well, if I may say so, my lord, it's probably quite easy to find where Stekyoden is and if Mr. Grant wants to do that upon instructions, I am prepared to accept that, but I am very anxious that the witness' attempt to locate Stekyoden on this photograph be noted for the record. I think that's -- Because it may have some importance when she is describing the boundaries and locations of the Territories. Well, what do you understand, Mr. Grant, is Stekyoden a ridge or does it include the peak? Well, my understanding is -- I have now taped the first part of the photograph so that it's all parallel. If you go to this series of three photographs the furthest left is Stekyoden and it stretches along that ridge. Does it include -- It is like a long mountain. Does it include the peak? Well, by the peak I take it you mean the high point? The highest point in any of the photographs? I believe that it does. All right. I just -- okay. I have now taped the three photographs together so that you can see that it is one mountain all the way along in the three pictures in Exhibit 33B. Now, can you just point with your finger where Stekyoden is? I don't want to use my finger this time. You don't want to use your finger this time? He doesn't believe me. No, he is confused because I kept moving that photograph and now it is in one place. Just so the court can see where you are pointing to, that's all. I am not going to use my finger. Can you tell us is Stekyoden -- Stekyoden belong to Steve Robinson and Jerry Sterrit and that's the boundary line I was talking about Xsiluusaadit and that's all. 1266 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 5 6 A 7 THE COURT 8 MR. GRANT 9 Q 10 A 11 THE COURT 12 13 MR. GRANT 14 THE COURT 15 MR. GRANT 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 26 27 28 Q 29 30 THE COURT 31 MR. GRANT 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 THE COURT 39 MR. GRANT 40 Q 41 42 43 A 44 Q 45 46 A 47 Q And that's — I'm not going to use my finger. -- the creek that you pointed to? And Stekyoden, is that the mountain that you look at when you look across from Old Hazelton? Yes. Look across what? Look across the Skeena River from Old Hazelton? Yes. It just depends where you are in Old Hazelton, does it? But it's across the river from old Hazelton? Yes. All right. It's hard to miss when you are at Hazelton. Now, you describe this creek that went down -- Yes. Xsiluu Saadit? Yes. And you say there is Spookw and Wii'goob'lean't cross the creek? Yes. And — Gwaans can't get across like Spookw. They can't come over with that creek, you know. That's the boundary line and they are not supposed to do that. They walk over the creek. So on one side -- I am referring here to the map at tab 4, number 2 map. Number 2? Yes. Sorry, my lord. And if you look at the Exhibit 5 behind you, you can see where that map refers to. It refers to the -- again to the Hazelton is here and the Skeena goes here. We were talking about this L shaped Hanamuxw territory. Here we are talking about this one, this territory here just below Spookw on Exhibit 5. Yes. Now, you said on one side of this is Spookw and Wii'goobl'. And then you said Gwaans can't cross the creek? Yes. Is Gwaans on the same side as Spookw or on the other side of the creek? Other side. And when we refer to Gwaans here, are we referring 1267 1 2 3 A 4 Q 5 6 7 8 9 A 10 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 THE COURT 16 17 18 19 20 21 MR. GRANT 22 THE COURT 23 MR. GRANT 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 THE COURT 31 MR. GRANT 32 33 34 THE COURT 35 36 37 38 MR. GRANT 39 THE COURT 40 MR. GRANT 41 42 THE COURT 43 MR. GRANT 44 45 46 47 THE COURT to you? When you refer to Gwaans, that's the chief at Hanamuxw' house? Yes. Now, how far up the mountain you -- you were pointing on the Exhibit 33B to the -- to this area that's -- that's Hanamuxw' or Gwaans' territory. You described it as Gwaans' territory? How far up the mountain does that go? Well, I explained it to you last night that Gwis gyen owns the other side. The other side of the mountain? Yes. So you go up to the top of the mountain, then? Yes. Mr. Grant, I missed something in the evidence. And I think I have it right, but I want to make sure. I didn't -- I didn't recognize the switch from map 1 to map 2. And do I understand that 33A shows the territory claimed on map number 1 and 33B claims the territory shown in map 2? Yes, my lord and I am sorry I didn't introduce that. That's fine, thank you. Now, on map number 2 if you go straight up from the label at the bottom territory of Hanamuxw and just above the large U in Hanamuxw, just inside the thin line which draws where the map is, but outside the contour lines, if you put an X there that would be the viewing of Exhibit 33B. And I could indicate that to the court on the map the exhibit. Yes, please. I have marked with an X in red with again the viewing out, wideangle viewing out to make it where it was. Thank you. All right. Well, then, one last -- or not one last question, but at least a question. If we are to take the arrow that where she showed the boundary -- Yes. What boundary are we talking about? You are talking about the boundary, if you are looking at the map with the name on the bottom -- Yes. You see on the right-hand side of the heavy black line Xsiluu Saadit. It's written right along the black line -- I am sorry, on the left-hand side as you are facing it. Yes. 126? 1 MR. GRANT 2 THE COURT 3 MR. GRANT 4 5 6 7 THE COURT 8 9 MR. GRANT 10 THE COURT 11 MR. GRANT 12 13 14 15 THE COURT 16 17 18 MR. GRANT 19 THE COURT 20 MR. GRANT 21 22 THE COURT 23 MR. GRANT 24 25 THE COURT 26 MR. GRANT 27 28 THE COURT 29 MR. GRANT 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 REGISTRAR 38 THE COURT 39 40 41 42 MR. GRANT 43 Q 44 45 46 47 A And it goes right down to the river. Yes. That would be the -- and you followed that up, that would be the line. At the very top of that would be -- in the sky actually would be the three and the arrow points down to it. Well, then is .3 on Exhibit 33B this left-hand boundary on -- On the map. -- on map number 2? Yes, it's the map -- number 3 on Exhibit 33B is the creek, is the right-hand -- the left-hand boundary. When you are facing it with the label territory of Hanamuxw at the bottom. All right. Thank you. So I would take it, then, that the Stekyoden would be on the left again of that boundary line? That's right. Yes. Stekyoden you can see very heavy contours going up past -- towards the top of the map. Yes. And that's where you would be -- that's the direction of Stekyoden. Yes, thank you. I don't intend to put either of these territory maps to the witness because -- All right. -- she is not able to read the maps. They are only exhibits for identification at this point. Now, I would like to refer you just to -- I would like to mark the next exhibit as a supplementary photograph book of Gwaans. I have a copy for the court and copies were provided to my friends last week. I would ask that be marked as the next exhibit number. 34. Any problem, gentlemen? All right. That will be Exhibit 34. (EXHIBIT 34: Supplementary Photograph Book of Gwaans) I would just like to have you identify these few photographs in this book. First of all, the photograph at tab 1, is that your grandmother Fanny Johnson? Yes. 1 Q 2 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 Q 7 8 A 9 Q 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 23 A 24 Q 25 A 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 Q 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 Q 37 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 A 45 Q 46 47 A 1269 And that blanket that she is wearing, is that Hanamuxw? No, that's my grandfather's. That's Peter Johnson's? Peter Johnson. And the rattle that she is holding, is that the Hanamuxw? Hanamuxw. And her headdress? Yes. That's Hanamuxw? Mh'm. Now, the photograph at number -- and were you alive when that picture was taken? Yes, that's the time when Barbeau was there. That's when Barbeau was there? I remember the place in front of my Uncle Jeffrey's place in Andimaul. So that was taken at Andimaul? Yes. And photograph number 2, can you tell the court what that is -- who that is? That's Joan. That's the present Hanamuxw? Hanamuxw, yes . And whose blanket is she wearing? Jeffrey's. Is that Hanamuxw' blanket? Yes. And when was this picture taken? Well, at the time when Jeffrey died in 1966. So that was at the burial Feast? Yes. Going over to photograph number 3. That's — Is there a name for this particular -- it's a rattle; is that right? Yes. And is there a name for the crest on that rattle? It's jehlihl hat'. And what does that mean? Marten. Marten? Marten, hat'. And there is another rattle, a photograph of another rattle, picture number 4? Yes. 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 9 A 10 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 28 Q 29 30 A 31 Q 32 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 Q 37 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 43 A 44 Q 45 46 A 47 Q 1270 Is that Hanamuxw? Yes. And what does that rattle -- That's at Ksan now. It's at Ksan now? Yes. There is designs on that photograph. Can you just tell what -- That's miilooxs, that's a rattle. We call it haseex. Miilooxs, throwing stones. Throwing stones? Yeah. And is that one of the nax nok of Hanamuxw' house? Yes. And was it performed in 1945? Yes. And just let me ask you one other thing, were either of these rattles used at the pole raising in 1945? Yes, yeah. They both were? Yes. Turning over to photograph number 5 to -- it's a photograph of a mask. Yeah, that's xsi kyegasxw. And what is that? That's one of the nax nok. The other one is Gyedim gilaawlii. Is that tab 6 or photo 6 in Exhibit 34, that's the man in the hill? Mh'm. And that's one of the Feast masks. These masks both belong to Hanamuxw? Yeah. And were they both used in 1945? Yes. Photo 7, is this the headdress that you showed the court? Yes. And that belongs to Gwaans? Yes. And the top part of that, is that made of grizzly bear claws? Yes. And at photo 8 there is another mask and what is that the mask of? Did I mention Yal. Yes, you did. 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 6 A 7 Q 8 9 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 14 15 Q 16 17 18 19 A 20 Q 21 22 23 A 24 Q 25 A 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 Q 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 Q 37 A 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 A 42 Q 43 A 44 Q 45 A 46 Q 47 A 1271 I forgot the name of that, that's Hanamuxw. Is that used during the nax nok performance? Yes. Is that used during the performance for the stone throwing? Yes. Now, I would like to refer to -- I would like to ask you about how the seating is arranged at the Feast in Kitsequkla. Yeah. Where does Hanamuxw sit? The end of the table at the back. And the last one is Wootim ts'ee'l and Hanamuxw, Yoopt and Xsgogimlaxha. And Wiigyet. I just refer the court -- I refer the court to tab 3 of document book Exhibit 29. You are just describing the head table of the Giskaast in Kitsequkla? Yes. For the record, the index doesn't have the index before her, but started to give the names. And you said Wootim ts'ee'l? Wootim ts'ee'l is the first one. Who owns that name? Tommy Jones. He is from the house of Xsgogimlaxha? Yes. And Hanamuxw? Yes. And Yoopx. Who holds that name? Elmer Derrick. Whose house is that? Wiigyet's house. Next to him? Xsgogimlaxha. Who holds that name? Joe Wright. Next to him? Wiigyet. Mangus Turner? Gwis gyen. Mh'm? And Gwis gyen, that's Stanley Williams. Mh'm. And there is 'Nii tarn lax ooxs and Ts'aalis. Nii tak lax ooxs, who is that? That's Roger Johnson. 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 Q 8 A 9 Q 10 A 11 Q 12 13 14 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 Q 25 A 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 Q 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 Q 37 A 38 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 A 45 Q 46 A 47 Q 1272 And he is from Guxsan' house? Yes. And Ts'aalis . He is from Guxsan' house. And who holds that name? David Milton. Now, you are not on this table? No. Where does Gwaans sit? By the door. I would ask the court to turn the page over to the -- to the next page in the same tab. Okay. Can you describe the seating of the table by the door? Well, there is Niis Nohl now, that's Henry Wilson. Does he sit at the end? Yes. And who sits next to him along the side? Yuu K'intxw. Oliver Wesley? Yes. Which houses are those two people from? That's from Guxsan house. And next to Yuu K'intxw? Gwa amaals. And that's Dora Johnson from your house. And next? Gwaans. That's yourself? Yes. And next? Haawa. Beside you? Oh, it's K'amiam. And Haawa. Where does Siip juxw sit? By -- between us and Dora. Right. Between you and Dora? Yes. Not between -- I was sit and then K'amiam and then he sits there. So K'amiam sits right beside you? Yes. And who holds that name? Mary -- Bruce Wesley. And what house is he in? Guxsan. And then who sits next to him? Haawa. Didn't I mention Haawa? Yes. And who sits next -- 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 MR. GRANT 5 6 THE TRANS 7 MR. GRANT 8 THE TRANS 9 10 A 11 MR. GRANT 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 23 A 24 Q 25 A 26 Q 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 Q 35 A 36 Q 37 A 38 Q 39 40 A 41 Q 42 A 43 44 Q 45 A 46 Q 47 A 1273 'Niis 'na wii. And then Guun ga la gantxw. 'Niis 'na wii, is that William Stevens? Yes. Okay. That's an additional, my lord, and I will ask the interpreter to give the spelling. rOR: Which one? "Niis 'na wii. rOR: 'Niis 'na wii, apostrophe N-I-I-S, apostrophe N-A, W-I-I, 'Niis 'na wii? 'Niis 'na wii. And which house is 'Niis 'na wii? Xsgogimlaxha. Okay. Now, I just wanted to clarify where Siip juxw -- Siip juxw. Siip juxw? I'm not sure. Right next to Guun ga ba gantxw. On your side of Guun ga la gantxw? Yes. So, my lord, I think the changes from the -- And who holds the name Siip juxw? Yes. Siip juxw? Yes. That's Larry Marsden. Under Siip juxw it should be Larry Marsden instead of Larry Wright. And after it goes right from the bottom to Gwaans and then the next one would be Bruce Wesley beside her. And then would be Roger Sampare. And then would be Larry Marsden. Then would be the additional one of 'Niis 'na wii, William Stevens. And then at the end Guun ga la gantxw. That's Grace Williams? Yes. And she's from Guxsan' house? Yes. Now, which clans put on Feast at Kitsequkla where you sit? Frog. Do the Wolf clans put Feasts on at Kitsequkla? There is some Wolfs there now. Before there is just two clans there and Frogs and Giskaast. Did the Wolf clan put on Feast in Kitsequkla? Sometimes. What about the Eagles, do they put on Feasts? No Eagles there. 1 Q 2 3 A 4 5 Q 6 7 A 8 Q 9 10 11 12 A 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 ** A 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q 26 A 27 28 29 30 THE INTER 31 A 32 MR. GRANT 33 Q 34 A 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 Q 42 43 A 44 45 Q 46 47 A 1274 Are there children of people -- children of women who are from the Eagle clan who live in Kitsequkla Yes, I know Earnest Hyzims' wife from Eagle clan from Kitwanga. And her children, some of them still live in Kitsequkla? Yes. Now, I would like to ask you about assisting in Feasts and refer -- do you know of any territory -- of any case where a person would get territory for assisting to bury somebody else from another house? That's -- yes, I know. Can you describe -- That — Who it is and where they got territory? That's the reason why that Guxsan owns the trap line Guxsan because Yal died on the hunting ground his sister was there and he come back to -- yes, it is Kitsequkla after Yal died. They wanted Guxsan to help her. So Guxsan and Hanamuxw decide -- Hanamuxw decided what they were going to do and that's what they do. But that time they didn't bury the -- a person died, you know, they just cremate the ones that died. Mh'm. And that's what they did, Guxsan did. They cremate Yal and his sister was really upset because the only two of them left. And they decided to give Am halayt and haseex -- 3TER: Am halayt, head piece. And the rattle. Yal's sister decide to give it? Yeah, mh'm. But Hanamuxw said -- they refused when this woman showed them that they were going to give and then he had -- she had a son and Hanamuxw said to her, you know, that the boy will use it when they grow up. So they decide -- so this woman decided to give the hunting ground and Hanamuxw and Guxsan said: Okay, and that's what they did. And did your -- did this happen before you were born? Before I was born, but my grandmother used to tell me about it. And did she tell you where this territory of Guxsan was when she told you how -- Yeah, past Kitwanga. Xsi gwm bi yoosxw closer to -- 1 2 3 Q 4 A 5 MR. GRANT 6 7 8 Q 9 10 A 11 Q 12 13 A 14 Q 15 16 A 17 18 Q 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 30 31 32 33 Q 34 A 35 36 37 38 Q 39 40 A 41 Q 42 43 A 44 45 Q 46 47 1275 on the other side of Kitwanga and that's where Ant tk'al bakxw. Is it on the railway side of the river? On the railway side. Just for the record, for the court, there is a territory labeled under Guxsan which is table 5 on the other side of Kitwanga. Now, that practice or that transferring of territory to Guxsan because he buried Yal? Yes. Is that something that's accepted under Gitxsan laws? Yes. All the Chiefs agree with that. And what about protecting the name of the Chief, for example, if a chief dies. Well, the Guxsan take the hunting ground and never mind the name, but this won't hold the name. Right. Okay. I have moved into another question and I should introduce the -- I was going to ask you about if you've heard of a case where when a Chief dies and none of his, the people in his House are able to take the name because of their age or for whatever reason, can his -- and it's a male chief, can his own children hold that name for a certain period of time? Yes. Do you know of a case like that that you have seen? Well, I heard Kwamoon. And that's the reason why they used the name Kwamoon in Kitiwanga. Kwamoon was from Gisga ga'as and there was no more food that time. And they went down on a river and Kwamoon was ready to marry one of Hak'w' girl -- Mh'm. -- niece. And I heard that. That's what grandmother was saying. And Maggie Ryan used to tell me. And Hak'w was from Blackwater. Half Eagle and Frogs, that's Delgam uukw, Adaaw. Okay. When you are referring to Hak'w here, you are referring to the name that was held by your husband? Yes. And you said that -- now, did this happen in the time of t'am lax amit or before then? Before, I guess. But there is no food, that's the reason why they left Blackwater. And you are referring to Blackwater, is this a -- is this the Blackwater Lake up in the north of the territory? 1276 1 A 2 Q 3 4 A 5 6 7 Q 8 A 9 Q 10 11 A 12 13 Q 14 15 A 16 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 25 A 26 27 28 Q 29 A 30 31 Q 32 A 33 MR. GRANT 34 35 36 37 38 THE COURT 39 40 41 MR. GRANT 42 43 THE COURT 44 45 46 47 Yes, Gisga ga'as. And what happened that Kwamoon name went into Hak'w' house? When they cremated him, that's why they gave him that name to Hak'w. That's why Hak'w was holding the name. So is this today a name Kwamoon in Hak'w' house? Yes, one of the name in Hak'w' house. And is that all right in the Gitxsan to have a name in two houses? Yes, because they cremated Kwamoon, that's why these relation passed the name to Hak'w. Do you know of circumstances of Ax dii hix where his name was taken care of by someone? Well, his son owns the name for a long time, Charles Smith. Did this happen in your lifetime? Well, I seen that man. Charles Smith? Yes. And why did his son hold that name? Because no one could hold the name. And who was the old Ax dii hix children or who was the successor? Well, it's supposed to be his dad was holding that name, you know. And his dad died and they hold the name. There was nobody there to hold the name. Did the name go back to -- Well, they give it back when Wallace and Jack and Jeffrey are able to hold the name. And that's Wallace, Jack and Jeffrey Morgan? Yes. My lord, I talked with the witness at the coffee break and from discussion and what she said I was concerned about her stamina to go until 4:30. I would suggest that it may be an appropriate time to adjourn now. Well, all right on that basis I think that's reasonable. I would have been happy to put in some extra time, but I -- I can advise the court that I don't have much more direct of this witness. All right. 10 o'clock tomorrow morning then. Gentlemen, sometime this week I think we must have a discussion about the pace of the trial and so I would like counsel to give that some thought. And I would like counsel to consider some proposals that I 1277 1 might consider as to how we can move the matter 2 along. I would be happy to do it at 4 o'clock any 3 day this week including Friday, but counsel can let 4 me know when they have had such a discussion. I 5 think it should be in the presence of a court 6 reporter. I don't have a view whether it should be 7 in court or in chambers, I will leave that to 8 counsel. Thank you. 9 REGISTRAR: Order in court. 10 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED) 11 12 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING 13 TRANSCRIPT TO BE TRUE AND ACCURATE TO 14 THE BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY. 15 16 17 LISA REID, OFFICIAL REPORTER 18 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28