Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Commission Evidence of Emma Michell Vol. 5] British Columbia. Supreme Court Dec 18, 1986

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 5-138  MICHELL, E.,  Proceedings  Cross-Ex., Mr. Cohen    10.00 a.m. THURSDAY, 18 DECEMBER, 1986  GEORGE HOLLAND, Wet'suwet'en  Interpreter, Previously Affirmed.  EMMA MICHELL, a Witness on  behalf of the Plaintiffs,  Previously Affirmed.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION    UPON COMMENCING AT 10.30 a.m.  MR. COHEN:  It is December 18th, 1986 and this is the continuation of the examination on Commission of Mrs. Emma  Michell. We are in the middle of cross-examination.  Prsent today is, of course, the Witness, Mrs. Michell;  myself, Leonard Cohen, appearing for the Attorney  General of Canada; Mr. O'Byrne, appearing on behalf  of her Majesty the Queen in the Right of the Province  of British Columbia; Mr. Grant, appearing on behalf  of the Plaintiffs; Mrs. Tonia Mills, linquist, to assist  with the language problems; the Court Reporter; and  the Translator, Mr. George Holland; and our video  technician, Mr. Mike McDonald.  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. COHEN (contd)  Q   Very well, Mrs. Michell. You, of course, are still  under oath?  A  Yes.  Q   Mrs . Michell, earlier in your evidence you talked about  hunting and trapping; dO people in the House of Wilat  still hunt and trap at this time?  A   They do not use it except for myself and Alfred Mitchell  and Victor, who built a cabin.  Are members of the House of Wilat holders of traplines  which have been registered with the Provincial  Government?  A   It don't seem like it. Just Native people are  registered.  Q   I'm sorry, are the members of the House of Wilat holders  of traplines which have been registered with the  Provincial Government?  A   I don't think so. The Game Warden just gave us papers.  Q   Do members of the House of Wilat do any hunting?  A   No.  Q   Did they used to hunt? 5-139  MICHELL, E.,  Cross-Ex.,  Mr. Cohen  A   They may have a long time ago, when my grandmother  was alive.  Q   But the hunting has since stopped?  A   Before then my uncle, my aunt, they looked after the  territory.  Q   Mrs. Michell, you have talked about the territory at  Goosley Lake -- Sam Goosley Lake, and you gave evidence  that that territory has been ruined?  A  Yes.  Q   How was it ruined?  A  All the forest and trees were all clear cut. There  is nothing left there now. There's old camp sites left  around the area now. I hear Bill Wheadon, when Bill  Wheadon's outfit done that.  Q   When did they do that, Mrs. Michell? (Question not  translated)  A   (In English) 1967. 1966. Sixty-seven. Sixty-eight.  They worked in the area about 1966, '67 and '68.  I  didn't know about it until I came back from hospital  in Vancouver.  Q   Are there any gas lines or pipelines in the Sam Goosley  area?  A   I don't think so. Just up in the Telkwa River area  there's a gas line, and B.C. Tel in that area.  Q  Did you ever have any smokehouses or a smoKehouse at  Sam Goosley Lake?  MR. GRANT:  In what time period?  A   They did a long time ago. About the time when my mother  was alive.  Q   Do you still have a smokehouse there now?  A  We just smoke on the outside in the open now.  Q   Is the smokehouse gone? (Question not translated)  A   There's no smokehouse now.  Q  What about at Decker Lake, is there still a smokehouse  at Decker Lake?  A   It don't seem to be anything there now. Donald Walters  used to look after that area.  Q  Did you ever see any caribou at the Sam Goosley area?  A  A long time ago there was all caribou in the area.  There Gas no moose or. deer at that time.  Q   Did you see the caribou yourself?  A   I've seen them.  Q  At the Sam Goosley area?  A  Up on the mountains. There was caribou up around the  area where Equity Mine is now.  Q  Did you ever eat caribou?  A  We eat, we eat caribou.  Q   You were talking about Equity Mines, Mrs. Michell: 5-140  MICHELL, E.,  Cross-Ex.,  Mr. Cohen  What year did Equity Mines start their operations?  A   I'm not sure exactly when they started. I had a letter  to that effect and I wrote them but never received any  answers.  Q   Did they start at the time that your father was alive?  A  No. No, my father was gone then.  Q   What about your uncle, Alfred Namox?  A  He was also deceased.  Q   You say it was your uncle, Alfred Namox, who first saw  that mine? (Question not translated)  A  He found the ore there and never mentioned it, and later  he tried to coax John and Pat Namox to go up there and  look into it, which was never done and, as a result,  non-Native white people found the ore, mineral and it  was processed from there.  Q   Did any of your relatives or ancestors work in the mine?  A No. I had a letter saying that my children or grandchildren could work there but I have lost that letter  referring to that.  Q   Did any of your relatives participate in the mine's  operation in any way?  A  No.  Q   Mrs. Michell, you say that you own territory at Sam  Goosley Lake: you have given evidence that your father  had it; you have also talked about your mother having  it; how do you come to have the right to claim Sam  Goosley Lake?  MR. GRANT: Just a moment. I think you're misconstruing the  answer, unless you can refer to that. That is not what  she said, when you summarised what she said. I don't  believe that was her evidence.  MR. COHEN:  Very well.  MR. GRANT:  I don't want you to mislead the witness in the  lead-up.  BY MR. COHEN:  Q   Mrs. Michell. you said your grandmother Wilat had the  territory at Sam Goosley Lake; did you also say your  father had the territory at Sam Goosley Lake?  A  My father hunted for the in-laws up there, and Wilat  was my grandmother.  Q   Did your mother have the territory?  A   Yes, they held the territory, also my uncle.  Q   Which uncle was that? (Question not translated)  A  Alfred Namox.  Q   Is it because your mother and your uncle, Alfred Namox,  say that they had the territory that you say you had  the territory? 5-141  MICHELL, E.,  Cross-Ex.,  Mr. Cohen  A   Yes.  Q   Mrs. Michell, you have given evidence that your husband,  Tommy, left his rights that he said he had to his territory to Stanley Nikal?  A  Yes, it was mentioned in a potlatch.  Q   What relationship was there between Stan Nikal and Tommy  Michell?  A   They're all Laksilyu.  Q  Were they blood relatives?  A  They are all practically blood relatives. They are  all descendants of Queen.  Q   Is Sarah Tait? Was she related to Tommy Michell?  A  Yes.  Q   How?  A  They come from different houses but they are all  relatives through the clan system, Laksilyu.  Q   Can you tell me    MR. GRANT: Just let her answer.  MR. COHEN: She's doing it in parts, Mr. Grant.  Was there a further response?  THE WITNESS: You are part of that clan also.  THE INTERPRETER: Referring to the Translator.  BY MR . COHEN :  Q   Can you tell us what relationship there was specifically  between Sarah Tait and Tommy Michell?  A  Laksilyu come I believe four houses, possibly five.  The two you mention come from different houses but they  are relatives through the clan Laksilyu.  Q  Are you able to tell us, Mrs. Michell, what the blood  relationship is between Sarah Tait and Tommy Michell?  A  They are related through Laksilyu but they are removed,  removed from one another in a small way.  Q   Were Mabel Sam and Tommy Michell related?  A  They are related in the same fashion except Mabel Sam  is related through my father. They are from the  Kilwoneet clan.  THE INTERPRETER:  House, I should say.  BY MR. COHEN:  Q   Mrs. Michell, earlier in your, evidence you talked about  the laws of the Wet'suwet'en; would you agree that  the land claimed by the Wet'suwet'en is not claimed  by the Gitksan?  A   Yes. They have a different territory of their own.  Q  Would you agree that land which the Wet'suwet'en say  they own cannot be used by the Gitksan unless they get  permission from the Wet'suwet'en? 5-142  MICHELL, E.,  Cross-Ex.,  Mr. Cohen  A   Yes.  Q   Mrs. Michell, earlier in your evidence you talked about  territory that Lame Arthur Michell said he had in  Driftwood Canyon, and you also gave evidence that that  territory has been taken by the whites?  A  Yes, I also had a letter to that effect and I've also  -- they still -- the white people still own it, still  hold that territory.  Q   When did the white people take that territory?  A   I think about 1940.  Q   Do you know the names of the white people that you were  referring to?  (Question not translated)  A  No, I do not know. I have seen them walking around.  I have seen them walking to the bar now and again.  Q  What sort of things do the White people do in that area  in Driftwood Canyon?  (Question not translated)  A   They are farming. Sometimes they go hunting and trapping.  Q   Mrs. Michell, when I first started this cross-examination  one of the early topics was about disputes amongst  Wet'suwet'en and your evidence at that time, that there  were no such disputes; do you remember saying there  were no such disputes?  A  No, they don't fight one another. They did that years  ago.  Q   I would like to go back to some evidence that you gave  before that day, Mrs. Michell, where you described how  your, brother, Jim Mitchell, was killed?  MR. GRANT: Could you refer me to what you're referring to?  MR. COHEN:  Well, if you have patience you will hear the events  I refer to but if you like you can turn to page 82 of  Volume I of the transcript of this Witness' evidence.  MR. GRANT: If you are referring to an answer she previously  gave, I believe she is entitled to    MR. COHEN: It might just come to that, if you would bear with  me for a moment.  MR. GRANT:  Fine. Thank you.  BY MR . COHEN:  Q   Mrs. Michell, you gave evidence that your brother, Jim  Mitchell, was killed, and he was killed by Donald Gray  when your brother, Jim Mitchell, was trapping; do  you remember giving that evidence?  A  Yes.  Q   I will put this transcript in front of the Translator  and you will see it -- just turn one page, line 16 --  there was a question that was put to you, Mrs. Michell,  and it was: 5-143  MICHELL, E.,  Cross-Ex.,  Mr. Cohen  "Who do you believe killed your brother and why?"  Your answer was:  "Okay, it was Donald Gray, who had a store in  Hagwilget, who is related to Tommy Tait. "  I wonder if you would translate that if you would, Mr.  Translator?  You then went on to say -- oh, tell her we'll have  to pause for a moment while the tapes being changed.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. COHEN: For clarification, there seems to have been a power  surge which interrupted the video tape and we are now  ready to proceed.  Q   Mrs. Michell, just before the tape went off I was referring to some earlier evidence given by yourself and  we were talking about Donald Gray. You went on to say  in your answer to the question:  "He is Tommy Tait's uncle. He was the one that  hired these people because he said the land my  father and brother were trapping on was his, but the  land in fact belonged to the Gitksan people who  had given my father and my brother permission to  trap there. They loved my father and that is why  they let him trap in that area. It was Joe Seymour,  Dan Joseph and Arthur Seymour who killed my brother.  We knew it was them who had done it but we didn't  say anything.  A   They had given that territory to my father. They loved  my father and that is why they gave permission for my  father and brother to go trapping there, and Donald  Gray claimed the territory was his own.  THE INTERPRETER: To go on what you just read a little while  ago, the answer was yes.  BE MR. COHEN:  Q   As I understand it your evidence then, Mrs. Michell,  your brother, Jim Mitchell, was killed by people that  Donald Gray hired to do that?  (Question not translated)  A  Yes.  Q  Or got to do that? And that happened because Donald  Gray thought Jim. Mitchell was using land that belonged  to Donald Gray?  A   It belonged to the Gitksan, Gilserhyu clan, that is  who it belonged to, and Donald Gray lied when he said  it was his territory. He came from the Skeena Crossing  area.  Q   When Donald Gray says that the territory was his and 5-144  MICHELL, E.,  Cross-Ex.,  Mr. Cohen  the Gitksan say that the territory was theirs, would  you agree with me if I called that a dispute?  A  Donald Gray lied because of his -- it was McKenzie  territory, the chief. His wife was Gilserhyu and as  a result Donald Gray lay claim to the territory.  Q   Mrs. Michell, I'll approach it this way: if I call  a claim by two different people for the same land a  dispute, I would ask you to agree with me for this discussion? It would seem that Donald Gray's way of fixing  the dispute was by killing your brother, Jim Mitchell?  A   I don't know what he was trying to do. Neil Sterritt  and Charlie Sterritt have claim to the territory also,  and Arthur Mowatt, and long ago a person by the name  of Dayns used to own that territory.  Q   Mrs. Michell, aside from determining exactly who owned  the territory, just for the purposes of this question  accept there was a dispute between two people or more  than two people as to who claimed the territory and  that one of the people killed someone who was using  the territory?  MR. GRANT: Before you answer the question, I think I would  object to the question. I think you have made your  point and I think it is only needless questioning at  this stage. I just want on the record you have repeated  this question in different ways.  MR. COHEN: I am repeating the question, Mr. Grant, because  the Witness hasn't fully answered the question.  MR. GRANT: You have my objection.  MR. COHEN: Madam Reporter, if you can kindly read back the  question?  THE REPORTER: Question:  "Mrs. Michell, aside from determining  exactly Who owned the territory, just for the  purposes of this question accept there was a dispute  between two people or more than two people as to  who claimed the territory and that one of the people  killed someone who was using the territory?"  MR. COHEN: Translate that please?  THE WITNESS: The Gitksan people did not dispute, only Donald  Gray on his own, that he disputed it. He lay claim to  the territory thinking it was his territory. He thought  it belonged to Chief McKenzie's wife's people.  BY MR. COHEN:  Q   Mrs. Michell, if someone says that they own territory  and then kills another person who is using the territory,  to whom they have given permission, is that a way of  fixing a dispute in accordance with Wet'suwet'en law?  A   Yes, he may have thought that he was doing it according 5-145  MICHELL, E.,  Cross-Ex.,  Mr. Cohen  to the Wet'suwet'en law but now they have all passed on.  Q  Is that how the Wet'suwet'en law today provides for the  fixing of a dispute like the one we were talking about?  A  They don't do that now. Nowadays there's no bad people  left. Donald Gray was one of the bad people. That is  why as a result he done that.  Q  Does Wet'suwet'en law provide for a way to fix a dispute  when one Wet'suwet'en person kills another Wet'suwet'en  person, or the child of another Wet'suwet'en person?  MR. GRANT: Just a moment. I object because the question is  you keep using this word "fixing a dispute" and disputes, if you want to call it that, can arise out of  any number of things, as can killings arise out of any  number of things. I think you should be more specific.  I think the question is unanswerable in its present form  and I object on that basis.  MR. COHEN:  If the Witness has trouble with understanding the  question, Mr. Grant, I'll deal with it.  MR. GRANT: This is not a question for the Witness to decide.  I am saying the question is unanswerable for the Witness.  It is not a question for the witness to decide whether  it's unanswerable, I am saying it's unanswerable in it's  present form. I encourage you to rephrase the question  and pinpoint what kind of dispute you're talking about  and you may get a more productive result.  MR. COHEN:  I don't accept what you say, Mr. Grant, but having  interrupted the question, I'll start again in any event.  Q  When one Wet'suwet'en person kills another Wet'suwet'en  or the child of a Wet'suwet'en person, does Wet'suwet'en  law provide for the fixing of any dispute arising from  that death?  A  They at times accommodate one another to fix these disputes  Q  Mrs. Michell, if We Call What Jim Mitchell Was doing on  the land that Donald Gray claimed trespass, what would  happen now if a Wet'suwet'en person would trespass on  the land of another Wet'suwet'en?  A  Nothing happens if they go -- another Wet'suwet'en goes  on another Wet'suweten's territory if they go on with  permission.  Q  What happens if they do not have permission?  A  A long time ago they used to do these things when another  person trespasses, but nothing really happens now.  Q  What does Wet'suwet'en law provide if something does  happen like that?  A  It's just like stealing.  Q  What happens to the person who is stealing?  A  They don't do nothing, they just laugh at him.  Q  What does Wet'suwet'en law provide to happen?  A  No. 5-146  MICHELL, E.,  Cross-Ex.,  Mr. Cohen  Q  What does Wet'suweten law allow people to do when they  catch someone stealing like that?  A  A long time ago they used to Kill one another but as a  result of present day law, they don't do that.  Q  Is that Wet'suwet'en law that you're referring to?  A  Yes.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. COHEN: For the record, we went off the record for a moment  to clarify a word for the Court Reporter.  Q  Mrs. Michell, do you know Mr. Ray Ingraham?  A  No.  Q  Do you know Andrew Dennis?  A  Yes, I know him.  Q  Does he live in Moricetown?  A  Yes, he lives here.  Q  Is he Wet'suwet'en?  A  Yes.  Q  What house is he a member Of?  A  Tsayu. Comes from Kweese.  MR. COHEN:  I'm sorry, can we go off the record for a moment  please?    OFF THE RECORD  MR. COHEN  Back on the record. We paused to clarify an answer  MR. GRANT: For the Reporter.  MR. COHEN: For the Reporter.  Q  Does Andrew Dennis live in accordance with Wet'suwet'en  law?  A  I do not know. He moves around. He moved to Stellaco,  where he is married, and he has a house here in Moricetown  Q  Do you know Charlotte Dennis?  A  No. It could be one of his children.  Q  The full name is Charlotte Rose Dennis; do you know  Charlotte Rose Dennis?  A  No.  I do not know all the children of the name.  Q  Who is Andrew Dennis married to?  A  He is married to Rose --a woman by the name of Rose,  and she comes from Kilwoneet territory.  Q  Does she live in Moricetown?  A  She lives in    THE INTERPRETER:  Excuse me.  THE WITNESS:   she's the wife of Andrew Dennis.  BY MR. COHEN:  Q   Is she Wet'suwet'en? 5-147  MICHELL, E.,  Cross-Ex.,  Mr. Cohen  A   Yes. Her grandmother comes from this territory, this  area here, and the grandmother is related to    THE INTERPRETER:  Excuse me.    DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:   is a sister to my father. They all live  in Stellaco. Big Jenny, all of them.  BY MR . COHEN :  Q  Mrs. Michell, do you have a daughter Louise Michell?  A  Yes, that is Rose's mother.  Q   Does Louise live in Moricetown?  A  No, they live in Stellaco.  MR. GRANT:  If I may just say something, Mr. Cohen? I think  from that last answer, there was some confusion. You  were asking about this woman or Andrew Dennis' wife,  whose name was Rose, then you asked about Louise Michell  The way you asked it, you asked if the Witness had a  daughter, Louise Michell?  MR. COHEN:  Yes.  MR. GRANT: She suggests -- I am not certain -- but part of  her answer referred to her as "Rose's mother", so the  Witness may have been thinking you were still talking  about the other person. You may want to clarify that?  MR. COHEN: Thank you, Mr. Grant.  MR. GRANT : For the record, my interruption isn't being  translated. I am just asking you -- suggesting that  you may have been misled.  BY MR . COHEN:  Q  Mrs. Michell, do you have a daughter Louise?  A  No. Just my name is Emma Louise Michell. The name  comes from the Bishop's Confirmation.  Q   Do you know a Louise Michell?  THE INTERPRETER: Asking a question to her Translator, "Is  that the one they call mother to Rose Michell?"  MR. GRANT: The Witness is not sure who you are referring  to, Mr. Cohen.  MR. COHEN:  I'm not convinced of that.  Q   Is there a Rose Michell?  THE INTERPRETER: Again she is questioning the Translator  for a comfirmation.  MR. COHEN: Did she ask you if there was a Rose Michell?  THE INTERPRETER: Yes. I am not aware of the relationship.  MR. COHEN: Mrs. Michell, do you   MR. GRANT:  I'm sorry, you didn't give that answer that you 5-148  MICHELL, E.,  Cross-Ex.,  Mr. Cohen  just explained to the Witness, did you, Mr. Interpreter?  THE INTERPRETER:  No.  MR. GRANT: Just to have the record clear.  BY MR. COHEN:  Q  Mrs . Michell , did you know a child Charles Martin Dan?  A  No, I don't know him.  Q  Very well. Mrs. Michell, earlier in this cross-  examination I was asking about Indian Reserves and in  particular Indian Reserves upon which Nutseni Indians  reside. I had asked you if there were any such Indian  Reserves upon which the Nutseni do reside at Sam Goosley  Lake, and you said no?  A  No.  Q  That Was your answer to the question about there being  any Indian Reserves at Sam Goosley Lake. Are there a  number of Indian Reserves at Maxam Lake, Mrs. Michell?  A  The people around Maxam Lake may have reserves around  there. There's quite a few of them living around the area  Q  Are they Nutseni Indians?  A  They are Wet'suwet'en also.  Q  Mrs. Michell, are there Gutseni Indians living at Burns  Lake?  A  There was a reserve there belonging to a chief by the  name of Daytsii diipii. Burns Lake David and Burns Lake  Tom. A foster child or adopted son had sold the territory, the property there, because he was married to  a Nutseni.  Q  Was the chief you referred to, Daytsii diipii, a  Wet'suwet'en?  A  Yes, he was Wet'suwet'en. He was also related to Lame  Michell and Burns Lake Tom.  Q  What house Was he a member Of?  A  Lame Michell came from Ginehklaiga.  Q  What Was his clan?  A  Yes, they were all related.  Q  Mrs. Michell, are there Indian Reserves at Decker Lake?  A  They may have had a reserve there, Boo lived around there  Q  Are there Nutseni Indians living on those reserves?  A  Boo was Wilat at one time.  Q  Are there Nutseni Indians living on the reserves at  Decker Lake?  A  No.  Q  Which Indians lived there?  A  Donald Alder and his children lived in that area. His  wife was Gitdumden, and Burns Lake Tom's daughter. Paddy  Isaac's wife also Burns Lake Tom's daughter.  Q  Are those Indians Wet'suwet'en? 5-149  MICHELL, E.,  Cross-Ex.,  Mr. Cohen  A  They are all Wet'suwet'en.  Q   Is it your sworn evidence then, Mrs. Michell, that all  of the Indians living on the reserves in the areas we  have just discussed are Wet'suwet'en?  MR. GRANT: Just a moment. I object to that question.  You asked who lived at different places and she  described individual names. You're now asking her if  all the people that live there are Wet'suwet'en. She's  given you answer regarding specific people but there  may well be people there who she doesn't know.  MR. COHEN: Mr. Grant, we have talked about the reserves at  Maxam Lake, the reserves at Burns Lake, the reserves  at Decker Lake, and in each of those cases she gave  evidence.  MR. GRANT:  I don't dispute that. She gave evidence with  respect to specific people, and you asked in each case  whether they were Wet'suwet'en or Nutseni.  MR. COHEN: She gave evidence with respect to the reserve a  about which I was asking.  MR. GRANT:  Yes.  MR. COHEN: And that is what I am continuing you ask about  now.  MR. GRANT: You are asking if all the people that live on those  reserves are Wet'suwet'en, and she was given the names  of the specific individuals and then described whether  Wet'suwet'en or Nutseni. I strongly object to the  question based on your -- this witness may not know  every person that lives on all those reserves.  MR. COHEN: That is not what her evidence was, Mr. Grant.  When I asked about Indians at Maxam Lake she said they  were not Nutseni, she said they were Wet'suwet'en.  Similarly about the reserves at Burns Lake and additionally about the reserves at Decker Lake.  MR. GRANT: She gave you specific names and you asked in each  case whether Wet'suwet'en or Nutseni.  MR. COHEN: She gave specific names with reference to the  reserves. Decker Lake she said that those --my  question to her was: were there Nutseni Indians living  on those reserves and she said no. She went on to say  who lived there and that they were Wet'suwet'en.  BY MR. COHEN:  Q   Mrs. Michell, is it your evidence then that all of  the Indians living on reserves at Maxam Lake, at Decker  Lake and at Burns Lake are Wet'suwet'en Indians?  A  Yes. 5-150  MICHELL, E.,  Re-Exam.,  Mr. Grant  MR. COHEN: Very well . I have no further questions of this  witness. Perhaps we should go off the record and  re-arrange the seating. Tell her that we'll take a  short break.  - - - SHORT RECESS  RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. GRANT:  Q  I am going to ask you a few questions now, which we're  entitled to ask because of matters I raised by Mr.  0'Byrne or Mr. Cohen.  I would like to clarify the question of the Wilat  House; did Namox and Wilat share a longhouse at  Moricetown?  A  Yes.  Q  Was this a different house from the house at Moricetown  of Kweese?  A  Kweese was across the river.  Q  In Wet'suwet'en is there a word for house meaning the  building in which the people lived?  A  I don't think so. They just called it Wilat's house.  And across the river was Kweese's house.  MR. GRANT: Mr. Interpreter, when you're talking about the  building "house", what word do you use in Wet'suwet'en?  THE INTERPRETER: The word we use is "yax"..  MR. O'BYRNE: Mr. Grant, I'm unclear there. Is the Translator  giving    MR. GRANT:  I am asking the Translator for the word that he  uses when I ask the question "What is the building in  which the people live . I am asking the Translator  that question.  MR. O'BYRNE: Can we clarify whether or not the Translator  actually used that word in putting it to Mrs. Michell?  MR. GRANT: Certainly. Is that the word you used to Mrs.  Michell?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  MR. GRANT: Mr. Translator, is that the word you used when  you asked the Witness about whether a person belonged  to a house? For example, whether the Witness belonged  to Wilat's house? Did you use the same word "yax" or  do you use a different word?  THE INTERPRETER: We used the same word "yax" except that at  times depending on the way the sentence is put it could  pertain to clan house or the building house.  MR. GRANT: Is it the same word "yax" for clan house?  THE INTERPRETER: Yes, except that at times I use "clan house",  "diidatii yax" . 5-151  MICHELL, E.,  Re-Exam.,  Mr. Grant  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   Mrs. Michell, in Wet'suwet'en when you talk about Wilat's  house can that refer to the building in which Wilat  and Namox lived, and also can it refer to the close  relatives of Wilat on her mother's side?  A  Yes.  Q  When we are talking about close relatives on Wilat's  mother's side, is Namox one of those people?  A  Yes.  Q   Is Kweese related to Wilat?  A  They are related. Kweese lived on the other side of  the river with different clans. The fishing sites were  in the same manner. Kweese had one across the river.  and Wilat on this side.  Q   Did Namox use wilat's fishing sites or Kweese's fishing  sites?  A   They shared both sites.  If they wanted spring salmon  they used the one across the river.  Q   Is Namox closely related to Wilat?  A  He was a child.  Q   I didn't get the answer?  A  He was a child.  THE INTERPRETER:  It was his son or daughter.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q     In much of the questioning you were asked what  house you belonged to, in cross-examination, and you  said Wilat's house?  A  Yes.  Q   Would it be correct to say that you belong to Namox's  house?  A  Yes.  Q   So is it correct to say that Wilat's house and Namox's  house are the same?  A  Yes.  Q   You were asked on cross-examination whether Dan Michell,  Wigetemskol, was asked to speak on behalf of Namox?  A  Yes.  Q   Do you remember a feast in which Wet'suwet'en chiefs  met with Nutseni chiefs in the last year?  A  Yes.  Q   Who Spoke for Namox at that feast?  A   It Was Dan.  Q   Is Namox one of the hereditary chiefs of your house?  A   Yes. He ' s my uncle.  Q   I am referring to the present holder of the name Namox?  A   Lucy Holland is present day Namox. She said herself 5-152  MICHELL, E.,  Re-Exam.,  Mr. Grant  that she's weak and ailing, near death, and she wanted  Dan to take her place. And somebody else is going to  take Dan's name.  Q   Is the name Namox -- is the person who holds the name  Namox a high chief in that house?  A  Yes.  Q   You gave answers about working for the Bell Pole Company  and Hansen Pole Company; when you worked at the pole  camp did you work on Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en territory?  A   Belonged to the Gitksan, the territory.  Q   Did you know the Gitksan chiefs who held that territory?  A   Yes.  Q   Did you have their permission to cut poles on their  territory?  A  We got the timber sale off the Forestry.  Q   Did you talk to the Gitksan chiefs whose territory it  was about what you were doing?  A  We didn't talk to them, the Forestry was controlling  everything.  Q   There has been much reference to your territory referred,  to as the Sam Goosley territory, and it's been referred  to as Wilat's territory; is it also Namox's territory?  A   Yes.  Q   You were asked who in your house has permission to use  Sam Goosley territory and you said your children did?  A  Yes.  Q   Did Namox's children also have the right to use that  territory?  A  Yes.  There's also -- they are also permitted to  use the territory, even today. They have not been  successful in that territory because there is no timber  for animal habitat. They hunt moose there but all moose  already been shot off by the white people.  Q   Do the other people who are members of Namox's house,  aside from your children and Namox's children, have  rights to use the Sam Goosley territory?  A  Most of the children nowadays are not aware of these  things.  Q   I understand that but do the children of Namox's house  have the rights to use the Sam Goosley territory? Do  they have the right under the Wet'suwet'en law to use  that territory?  A   Yes.  Q   Mr. O'Byrne asked you some questions regarding the  difference between hereditary chiefs and non-hereditary  chiefs; is your name Lilloos a chief's name?  A   Lilloos is more a woman's name but it is -- it was at 5-153  MICHELL, E.,  Re-Exam.,  Mr. Grant  one time probably a chief's name. It came from Skeena  Crossing. Your grandmother brought it in from Skeena  Crossing and she gave it to me.  Q  So is it correct to say that that name was passed down  to you?  A   It was given Georgewaybain and then in turn she gave  it to me.  Q   Is Wilat a name that has been handed down from one person  to another?  A  Wilat was my grandmother's name, and is a big chief  name, and all of a sudden Margaret had that name and  it hasn't been finalised yet.  Q   Is Namox a chief's name that's been passed on?  A  Yes, that is a chief name also, and also that has been  --it was my uncle's and it has been finalised.  Q   Aside from Namox and Wilat are there any other chiefs'  names in the Namox House?  A  Misaloos and Wigetemskol. They're both chiefs names  in that clan.  Q   Are both those names in Namox's house?  A  Yes.  Q   Are there any other chiefs' names besides Namox , Wilat,  Wigetemskol and Misaloos in the Namox House?  A   Boo's one of them. It's also in with Namox and he was  the ancestor to Donald Walter ....  Q   Are there any other - - I'm sorry?  A  Donald Walters' father.  Q  So there was Namox, Wilat, Wigetemskol, Misaloos and  Boo; are those all the chiefs' names in Namox's house?  A  That is all.  Q  Would it be correct to say that all those names have  been passed on? When somebody has died they have been  passed on to a successor?  A  Yes.  Q   Except for Boo, which you have described nobody holds  right now?  A  No. I just jokingly said that one of Caspit's sons  I call him Boo, but they are talking about as a result  they may give him that name.  Q   You were asked by Mr. O'Byrne if you did anything other  than trapping and hunting on the Sam Goosley territory;  that is, the members of Namox's house?  A  Yes . They've hunted all the time.  Q  Did Namox's people take fish from the lake?  A   There was not too much fish in there. There was some  trout which they used for food.  Q   Did they pick berries on the Sam Goosley territory? 5-154  MICHELL, E.,  Re-Exam.,  Mr. Grant  A  No, just recently there's been some berries around the  area.  Q   Did the people use the trees from that territory to  build their cabins?  A   They used the trees for building log cabins. One of  my uncles, cabins I believe is still there yet.  MR. COHEN:  Mr. Grant, like so much of your questioning earlier,  it seems that you are leading.  MR. GRANT: I am not leading.  MR. COHEN: In the extreme here.  MR. GRANT:  I am not leading at all.  I am asking for specificity  and I am not leading or suggesting an answer.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   Did they use any plants on the territory?  A   There wasn't too many plants. The weather has always  been poor in the area.  Q   Did they make fish nets?  A  My mother used to make fish nets. Made out of thread.  MR. COHEN: Mr. Grant    THE WITNESS:  They called it Hudson Bay thread, which was found  and they used that to make   Hudson Bay sold it  and they called it skeins. It wasn't wrapped around  wood or anything.  MR. COHEN:  Mr. Grant, I will again suggest you are still leading  and I would ask you to refrain from so doing.  THE WITNESS: My mother made two nets and they were in the trunk  and they burned up at Wuskloocoonee one day, Hudson  Bay ranch. Their house burned down then.  BY MR. GRANT :  Q  Before the Hudson Bay thread was here did the Namox  people make nets from things that were on the land?  A  They used -- they used a plant by the name of lilhks.  I don't know what the plant is but they used that and  twisted it. The bark was really tough. That is what  they used to make fish nets. If I'm still alive come  summer I am going to show them what it is.  (In English) I'll show all of you!  MR. COHEN: Was there an answer there that should be translated?  MR. GRANT: She said "I'll show all of you" pointing around  the room to the counsel and everybody in the room.  Q    Did  Namox's people obtain this plant from the Sam Goosley  territory?  A   Yes. That plant grows almost anywhere. It's even around  this area also.  Q   Does Namox need your permission to go on Sam Goosley  territory? 5-155  MICHELL, E.,  Re-Exam.,  Mr. Grant  A   Yes.  Q You were asked by Mr. Cohen why you can't take the  name Wilat and you said "I don't have everything to  make a feast with at that time, that is why I didn't  take it"   A  Yes, I said that.  Q   Could you have taken the name Wilat under Wet'suwet'en  law without holding a feast,  A   I could have taken it. Namox and them encouraged me  because I had spent a lot of money when my uncle took  that name Namox.  I made a mistake by not doing so.  As a result I said that Alec Tiljoe should sit there  instead of me. He didn't spend anything himself.  Q  You were asked about Peter Alfred whose name is Kanots;  is Peter Alfred closer to Madeek or to Woos?  A  Madeek and Woos and them, they all come from different  -- are different from one another. But are in the  Gitdumden clan.  THE INTERPRETER: Madeek and them are the big chiefs.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q  Who is Kanots closer to, Madeek or Woos?  A   I'm just thinking that Kanots and Gyologet might be closer.  MR. O'BYRNE: Mr. Grant, are you talking chronologically?  Geographically?  THE WITNESS: Madeek comes from around   it's their territory  there. Paddy Isaac was in his father's territory.  MR. GRANT: Mr. O'Byrne raised a good point.  I wanted to be  clear with the Witness on this.  Q  When I talked about Madeek is -- or is Kanots closer  to Madeek than to Woos, I am talking about in terms  of their relationship within the Gitdumden clan, not  their territory?  A   I think also might be closer related to Madeek also.  As of today most Gitdumden are related closely also.  Q   This morning you were asked by Mr. Cohen whether or  not members of Wilat's house hunt?  A  Yes, they hunt but have no place to hunt. Where they  could hunt all the timber has gone out of it and they  have no place to hunt. There is some beaver in creeks  now.  Q   Does Dan Michell hunt?  A  Yes, he goes up there.  Q   Does Alfred Mitchell hunt?  A  Yes, sometimes he goes up there. Billy goes up. He  sometimes lives up there.  Q   That is Billy?  A  Alfred's brother. 5-156  MICHELL, E.,  Re-Exam.,  Mr. Grant  Q   When you say "go up there", you are referring to the  Sam Goosley territory?  A   Yes.  Q   Do other people in the Namox house hunt in the Sam  Goosley territory?  A  No, I don't think so. Pat and John could be going up  but they're registered elsewhere. They're -- their  names are on the McDonald Lake area.  MR. COHEN: Why don't we go off the record for a moment?  MR. GRANT: Just wait a minute. What was the answer?  THE INTERPRETER:  I didn't get that.  MR. GRANT: Just go off the record for a moment.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. GRANT: Go hack on the record,  Q   You were asked this morning about how Sarah Tait and  Tommy Michell were related, how they were related by  blood; are Sarah Tait and Tommy Michell, your husband,  were they in the same house? Or in the same clan?    DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE WITNESS:  No, they came from different houses.  Sarah comes  from Kwanbeahwuten. Tommy, my husband, is Taslawuten.  Maxam Lake.  BY MR . GRANT:  Q   But they are both Laksilyu? (Question not translated)  A   They're all Laksilyu.  MR. GRANT: Just one moment, I just want ... go off the record  for a moment.    OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION  MR. GRANT:  Go back on the record.  For the record, I have shown  a letter dated June 1st, 1984 under the letterhead of  the Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council  apparently written  and signed by Neil Sterritt, which is a three page letter  referring re: Little Tommy Michell application for  license to occupy. A copy of this letter was sent to  numerous persons including on the bottom, Tommy Michell,  Smithers.  I have shown this letter to both of my friends  and this letter was Exhibit I in these proceedings in  the Affidavit by Michael Goldie of October 10, 1986.  Q   I would like you, Mrs. Michell, to tell me if you have  ever seen that letter? 5-157  MICHELL, E.,  Re-Exam.,  Mr. Grant  MR. COHEN: Before it is put to the Witness, Mr. Grant, I will  ask you on the record if that letter is listed on your  List of Documents?  MR. GRANT:  I don't have my List of Documents here and I  would have    MR. COHEN: For the record I would say I have not seen that  record before today.  MR. 0'BYRNE:  Document.  MR. COHEN: That document before today.  MR. GRANT: The Attorney General of Canada have not seen many  of the documents on the List of Documents because they've  only asked to look at a few of them.  MR. COHEN  MR. GRANT  MR. COHEN  Are you saying it is on your List of Documents?  I have already answered that question, Mr. Cohen.  You confused it by your last comment.  BY MR . GRANT:  Q   I would ask you, Mrs. Michell, have you seen a copy  of that letter before today?  A   Is this the letter you're referring to?  Q   The letter is a letter dated June 1st, 1983 addressed  to Mr. McGregor, Regional Director of Lands and Housing,  and it is re: Little Tommy Michell application for  license to occupy and it is signed by Neil. Sterritt.  It appears that a copy was sent to Tommy Michell. Do  you recall receiving a copy of that letter?  A   I don't know, I may have seen it. I give letters to  Dan.  Q   Okay. To save some time and given the time that we  have here    A  What house is this referring to?  Q  Let the Witness look at the letter?  A   Is that the letter referring to the house that is being  built now?  Q   Mrs. Michell, the letter is lengthy and I don't want  you to have to go through the whole letter but let me  ask you this question: was your husband Tommy Michell  also known as Little Tommy Michell?  A  Yes, it is the same person. Is this regarding the house?  Q   No. I will arrange for a copy -- for the Witness to  have a copy of it. It's not with respect to the house.  One last question I would like to ask you. You  were asked this morning by Mr. Cohen whether or not  the killing of your brother by Donald Gray -- and I  am paraphrasing -- was a way under Wet'suwet'en law  to resolve disputes?  A   Yes, he was sick and he is doing it according to  Wet'suwet'en law. 5-158  MICHELL, E.,  Re-Exam.,  Mr. Grant  Q   Under the Wet'suwet'en law    A   I don't know why we did not go to -- refer them to the  law.  Q   Under Wet'suwet'en law if a person trespassed in the  old days on another person's territory without permission  that person could be killed, is that right?  A   Yes, they killed one another for trespassing in the  old days.  Q  When that was done would the person who killed the trespasser publicly acknowledge that they had killed a  trespasser?  A   I don't know, they may have done that that way.  Mrs. Michell, just before I finish my last set of  questioning, I had asked if you could sing the song  of Namox's house relating to your territory and I notice  that you have brought your drum today, and I wonder  if you could sing one of the songs which relates to that  territory?  A   They didn't have songs for the territory. They sang  songs only in fun, parties, or something.  Q   Does Namox or Wigetemskol have a song which belongs  with their crest?  A  Yes, Wigetemskol has a song.  Q   Can you sing that song for us?  A   You mean now?  MR. GRANT:  Yes .  THE INTERPRETER: She says for you to get up and dance!  She said splash your tail like a beaver!    WITNESS SINGS SONG  THE WITNESS:  (In English) How come you never danced!  MR. GRANT: Those are all   THE WITNESS: You want another Song?  MR. GRANT:  If you want to sing another song now, you can sing  it for us.  THE INTERPRETER:  Off the record?  MR. GRANT: No, we are on the record.    WITNESS SINGS SONG  THE INTERPRETER:  DO you want me ... .  MR. GRANT: Can you say the words that were sung?  THE INTERPRETER: Courses are repeating. Watch him slap his  tail as he swims and watch the bark flow from him.  Basically what the song is about. It is the beaver  song. 5-159  MICHELL, E.,  Re-Exam.,  Mr. Grant  BY MR . GRANT :  Q   The Tsayu are the Beaver clan?  THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  THE WITNESS: They're Tsayu. Also Eagle. Mountain Goats.  BY MR. GRANT:  Q   Does the song you sang belong to Wigetemskol?  A  Yes, that is his song. Alfred Michell sang that song.  He made that song for Wigetemskol. These songs are very  expensive. They're also paid for.  Q   When is that song used by Wigetemskol?  A  When my uncle died, when he first had that song made  for him.  MR. GRANT: Subject to as was agreed because the Witness was  not able to sing the song before that if either of you,  Mr. Cohen or Mr. O'Byrne, have questions arising out  of the song or questions following from that, I'm through  with my Re-Examination.  MR. COHEN:  I have no such questions.  MR. O'BYRNE:  Neither do I.  MR. GRANT: Thank you very much, Mrs. Michell, for these many  days and we are completed this Commission. Thanks a  lot for singing the song at the end of your evidence.  It was very helpful.    DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN  THE INTERPRETER: She was saying if I was feeling high I would  sing you lots of Tsayu songs.  MR. GRANT: All right. Go off the record now.    PROCEEDINGS COMPLETED AT 10.50 p.m.  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein, to the  best of my skill and ability.  A. Veronica Duffy (Ms)  (formerly Harper)  Official Court Reporter  AVD:Jan. 28/87     B.CS.R.A. #263


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