"fefd4732-09c2-4556-bcb3-f6c63b22e609"@en . "CONTENTdm"@en . "Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts"@en . "Michell, Emma"@en . "British Columbia. Supreme Court"@en . "2013"@en . "1986-12-18"@en . "https://open.library.ubc.ca/collections/delgamuukw/items/1.0018283/source.json"@en . "application/pdf"@en . " 5-138 MICHELL, E., Proceedings Cross-Ex., Mr. Cohen 10.00 a.m. THURSDAY, 18 DECEMBER, 1986 GEORGE HOLLAND, Wet'suwet'en Interpreter, Previously Affirmed. EMMA MICHELL, a Witness on behalf of the Plaintiffs, Previously Affirmed. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION UPON COMMENCING AT 10.30 a.m. MR. COHEN: It is December 18th, 1986 and this is the continuation of the examination on Commission of Mrs. Emma Michell. We are in the middle of cross-examination. Prsent today is, of course, the Witness, Mrs. Michell; myself, Leonard Cohen, appearing for the Attorney General of Canada; Mr. O'Byrne, appearing on behalf of her Majesty the Queen in the Right of the Province of British Columbia; Mr. Grant, appearing on behalf of the Plaintiffs; Mrs. Tonia Mills, linquist, to assist with the language problems; the Court Reporter; and the Translator, Mr. George Holland; and our video technician, Mr. Mike McDonald. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. COHEN (contd) Q Very well, Mrs. Michell. You, of course, are still under oath? A Yes. Q Mrs . Michell, earlier in your evidence you talked about hunting and trapping; dO people in the House of Wilat still hunt and trap at this time? A They do not use it except for myself and Alfred Mitchell and Victor, who built a cabin. Are members of the House of Wilat holders of traplines which have been registered with the Provincial Government? A It don't seem like it. Just Native people are registered. Q I'm sorry, are the members of the House of Wilat holders of traplines which have been registered with the Provincial Government? A I don't think so. The Game Warden just gave us papers. Q Do members of the House of Wilat do any hunting? A No. Q Did they used to hunt? 5-139 MICHELL, E., Cross-Ex., Mr. Cohen A They may have a long time ago, when my grandmother was alive. Q But the hunting has since stopped? A Before then my uncle, my aunt, they looked after the territory. Q Mrs. Michell, you have talked about the territory at Goosley Lake -- Sam Goosley Lake, and you gave evidence that that territory has been ruined? A Yes. Q How was it ruined? A All the forest and trees were all clear cut. There is nothing left there now. There's old camp sites left around the area now. I hear Bill Wheadon, when Bill Wheadon's outfit done that. Q When did they do that, Mrs. Michell? (Question not translated) A (In English) 1967. 1966. Sixty-seven. Sixty-eight. They worked in the area about 1966, '67 and '68. I didn't know about it until I came back from hospital in Vancouver. Q Are there any gas lines or pipelines in the Sam Goosley area? A I don't think so. Just up in the Telkwa River area there's a gas line, and B.C. Tel in that area. Q Did you ever have any smokehouses or a smoKehouse at Sam Goosley Lake? MR. GRANT: In what time period? A They did a long time ago. About the time when my mother was alive. Q Do you still have a smokehouse there now? A We just smoke on the outside in the open now. Q Is the smokehouse gone? (Question not translated) A There's no smokehouse now. Q What about at Decker Lake, is there still a smokehouse at Decker Lake? A It don't seem to be anything there now. Donald Walters used to look after that area. Q Did you ever see any caribou at the Sam Goosley area? A A long time ago there was all caribou in the area. There Gas no moose or. deer at that time. Q Did you see the caribou yourself? A I've seen them. Q At the Sam Goosley area? A Up on the mountains. There was caribou up around the area where Equity Mine is now. Q Did you ever eat caribou? A We eat, we eat caribou. Q You were talking about Equity Mines, Mrs. Michell: 5-140 MICHELL, E., Cross-Ex., Mr. Cohen What year did Equity Mines start their operations? A I'm not sure exactly when they started. I had a letter to that effect and I wrote them but never received any answers. Q Did they start at the time that your father was alive? A No. No, my father was gone then. Q What about your uncle, Alfred Namox? A He was also deceased. Q You say it was your uncle, Alfred Namox, who first saw that mine? (Question not translated) A He found the ore there and never mentioned it, and later he tried to coax John and Pat Namox to go up there and look into it, which was never done and, as a result, non-Native white people found the ore, mineral and it was processed from there. Q Did any of your relatives or ancestors work in the mine? A No. I had a letter saying that my children or grandchildren could work there but I have lost that letter referring to that. Q Did any of your relatives participate in the mine's operation in any way? A No. Q Mrs. Michell, you say that you own territory at Sam Goosley Lake: you have given evidence that your father had it; you have also talked about your mother having it; how do you come to have the right to claim Sam Goosley Lake? MR. GRANT: Just a moment. I think you're misconstruing the answer, unless you can refer to that. That is not what she said, when you summarised what she said. I don't believe that was her evidence. MR. COHEN: Very well. MR. GRANT: I don't want you to mislead the witness in the lead-up. BY MR. COHEN: Q Mrs. Michell. you said your grandmother Wilat had the territory at Sam Goosley Lake; did you also say your father had the territory at Sam Goosley Lake? A My father hunted for the in-laws up there, and Wilat was my grandmother. Q Did your mother have the territory? A Yes, they held the territory, also my uncle. Q Which uncle was that? (Question not translated) A Alfred Namox. Q Is it because your mother and your uncle, Alfred Namox, say that they had the territory that you say you had the territory? 5-141 MICHELL, E., Cross-Ex., Mr. Cohen A Yes. Q Mrs. Michell, you have given evidence that your husband, Tommy, left his rights that he said he had to his territory to Stanley Nikal? A Yes, it was mentioned in a potlatch. Q What relationship was there between Stan Nikal and Tommy Michell? A They're all Laksilyu. Q Were they blood relatives? A They are all practically blood relatives. They are all descendants of Queen. Q Is Sarah Tait? Was she related to Tommy Michell? A Yes. Q How? A They come from different houses but they are all relatives through the clan system, Laksilyu. Q Can you tell me MR. GRANT: Just let her answer. MR. COHEN: She's doing it in parts, Mr. Grant. Was there a further response? THE WITNESS: You are part of that clan also. THE INTERPRETER: Referring to the Translator. BY MR . COHEN : Q Can you tell us what relationship there was specifically between Sarah Tait and Tommy Michell? A Laksilyu come I believe four houses, possibly five. The two you mention come from different houses but they are relatives through the clan Laksilyu. Q Are you able to tell us, Mrs. Michell, what the blood relationship is between Sarah Tait and Tommy Michell? A They are related through Laksilyu but they are removed, removed from one another in a small way. Q Were Mabel Sam and Tommy Michell related? A They are related in the same fashion except Mabel Sam is related through my father. They are from the Kilwoneet clan. THE INTERPRETER: House, I should say. BY MR. COHEN: Q Mrs. Michell, earlier in your, evidence you talked about the laws of the Wet'suwet'en; would you agree that the land claimed by the Wet'suwet'en is not claimed by the Gitksan? A Yes. They have a different territory of their own. Q Would you agree that land which the Wet'suwet'en say they own cannot be used by the Gitksan unless they get permission from the Wet'suwet'en? 5-142 MICHELL, E., Cross-Ex., Mr. Cohen A Yes. Q Mrs. Michell, earlier in your evidence you talked about territory that Lame Arthur Michell said he had in Driftwood Canyon, and you also gave evidence that that territory has been taken by the whites? A Yes, I also had a letter to that effect and I've also -- they still -- the white people still own it, still hold that territory. Q When did the white people take that territory? A I think about 1940. Q Do you know the names of the white people that you were referring to? (Question not translated) A No, I do not know. I have seen them walking around. I have seen them walking to the bar now and again. Q What sort of things do the White people do in that area in Driftwood Canyon? (Question not translated) A They are farming. Sometimes they go hunting and trapping. Q Mrs. Michell, when I first started this cross-examination one of the early topics was about disputes amongst Wet'suwet'en and your evidence at that time, that there were no such disputes; do you remember saying there were no such disputes? A No, they don't fight one another. They did that years ago. Q I would like to go back to some evidence that you gave before that day, Mrs. Michell, where you described how your, brother, Jim Mitchell, was killed? MR. GRANT: Could you refer me to what you're referring to? MR. COHEN: Well, if you have patience you will hear the events I refer to but if you like you can turn to page 82 of Volume I of the transcript of this Witness' evidence. MR. GRANT: If you are referring to an answer she previously gave, I believe she is entitled to MR. COHEN: It might just come to that, if you would bear with me for a moment. MR. GRANT: Fine. Thank you. BY MR . COHEN: Q Mrs. Michell, you gave evidence that your brother, Jim Mitchell, was killed, and he was killed by Donald Gray when your brother, Jim Mitchell, was trapping; do you remember giving that evidence? A Yes. Q I will put this transcript in front of the Translator and you will see it -- just turn one page, line 16 -- there was a question that was put to you, Mrs. Michell, and it was: 5-143 MICHELL, E., Cross-Ex., Mr. Cohen \"Who do you believe killed your brother and why?\" Your answer was: \"Okay, it was Donald Gray, who had a store in Hagwilget, who is related to Tommy Tait. \" I wonder if you would translate that if you would, Mr. Translator? You then went on to say -- oh, tell her we'll have to pause for a moment while the tapes being changed. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION MR. COHEN: For clarification, there seems to have been a power surge which interrupted the video tape and we are now ready to proceed. Q Mrs. Michell, just before the tape went off I was referring to some earlier evidence given by yourself and we were talking about Donald Gray. You went on to say in your answer to the question: \"He is Tommy Tait's uncle. He was the one that hired these people because he said the land my father and brother were trapping on was his, but the land in fact belonged to the Gitksan people who had given my father and my brother permission to trap there. They loved my father and that is why they let him trap in that area. It was Joe Seymour, Dan Joseph and Arthur Seymour who killed my brother. We knew it was them who had done it but we didn't say anything. A They had given that territory to my father. They loved my father and that is why they gave permission for my father and brother to go trapping there, and Donald Gray claimed the territory was his own. THE INTERPRETER: To go on what you just read a little while ago, the answer was yes. BE MR. COHEN: Q As I understand it your evidence then, Mrs. Michell, your brother, Jim Mitchell, was killed by people that Donald Gray hired to do that? (Question not translated) A Yes. Q Or got to do that? And that happened because Donald Gray thought Jim. Mitchell was using land that belonged to Donald Gray? A It belonged to the Gitksan, Gilserhyu clan, that is who it belonged to, and Donald Gray lied when he said it was his territory. He came from the Skeena Crossing area. Q When Donald Gray says that the territory was his and 5-144 MICHELL, E., Cross-Ex., Mr. Cohen the Gitksan say that the territory was theirs, would you agree with me if I called that a dispute? A Donald Gray lied because of his -- it was McKenzie territory, the chief. His wife was Gilserhyu and as a result Donald Gray lay claim to the territory. Q Mrs. Michell, I'll approach it this way: if I call a claim by two different people for the same land a dispute, I would ask you to agree with me for this discussion? It would seem that Donald Gray's way of fixing the dispute was by killing your brother, Jim Mitchell? A I don't know what he was trying to do. Neil Sterritt and Charlie Sterritt have claim to the territory also, and Arthur Mowatt, and long ago a person by the name of Dayns used to own that territory. Q Mrs. Michell, aside from determining exactly who owned the territory, just for the purposes of this question accept there was a dispute between two people or more than two people as to who claimed the territory and that one of the people killed someone who was using the territory? MR. GRANT: Before you answer the question, I think I would object to the question. I think you have made your point and I think it is only needless questioning at this stage. I just want on the record you have repeated this question in different ways. MR. COHEN: I am repeating the question, Mr. Grant, because the Witness hasn't fully answered the question. MR. GRANT: You have my objection. MR. COHEN: Madam Reporter, if you can kindly read back the question? THE REPORTER: Question: \"Mrs. Michell, aside from determining exactly Who owned the territory, just for the purposes of this question accept there was a dispute between two people or more than two people as to who claimed the territory and that one of the people killed someone who was using the territory?\" MR. COHEN: Translate that please? THE WITNESS: The Gitksan people did not dispute, only Donald Gray on his own, that he disputed it. He lay claim to the territory thinking it was his territory. He thought it belonged to Chief McKenzie's wife's people. BY MR. COHEN: Q Mrs. Michell, if someone says that they own territory and then kills another person who is using the territory, to whom they have given permission, is that a way of fixing a dispute in accordance with Wet'suwet'en law? A Yes, he may have thought that he was doing it according 5-145 MICHELL, E., Cross-Ex., Mr. Cohen to the Wet'suwet'en law but now they have all passed on. Q Is that how the Wet'suwet'en law today provides for the fixing of a dispute like the one we were talking about? A They don't do that now. Nowadays there's no bad people left. Donald Gray was one of the bad people. That is why as a result he done that. Q Does Wet'suwet'en law provide for a way to fix a dispute when one Wet'suwet'en person kills another Wet'suwet'en person, or the child of another Wet'suwet'en person? MR. GRANT: Just a moment. I object because the question is you keep using this word \"fixing a dispute\" and disputes, if you want to call it that, can arise out of any number of things, as can killings arise out of any number of things. I think you should be more specific. I think the question is unanswerable in its present form and I object on that basis. MR. COHEN: If the Witness has trouble with understanding the question, Mr. Grant, I'll deal with it. MR. GRANT: This is not a question for the Witness to decide. I am saying the question is unanswerable for the Witness. It is not a question for the witness to decide whether it's unanswerable, I am saying it's unanswerable in it's present form. I encourage you to rephrase the question and pinpoint what kind of dispute you're talking about and you may get a more productive result. MR. COHEN: I don't accept what you say, Mr. Grant, but having interrupted the question, I'll start again in any event. Q When one Wet'suwet'en person kills another Wet'suwet'en or the child of a Wet'suwet'en person, does Wet'suwet'en law provide for the fixing of any dispute arising from that death? A They at times accommodate one another to fix these disputes Q Mrs. Michell, if We Call What Jim Mitchell Was doing on the land that Donald Gray claimed trespass, what would happen now if a Wet'suwet'en person would trespass on the land of another Wet'suwet'en? A Nothing happens if they go -- another Wet'suwet'en goes on another Wet'suweten's territory if they go on with permission. Q What happens if they do not have permission? A A long time ago they used to do these things when another person trespasses, but nothing really happens now. Q What does Wet'suwet'en law provide if something does happen like that? A It's just like stealing. Q What happens to the person who is stealing? A They don't do nothing, they just laugh at him. Q What does Wet'suwet'en law provide to happen? A No. 5-146 MICHELL, E., Cross-Ex., Mr. Cohen Q What does Wet'suweten law allow people to do when they catch someone stealing like that? A A long time ago they used to Kill one another but as a result of present day law, they don't do that. Q Is that Wet'suwet'en law that you're referring to? A Yes. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION MR. COHEN: For the record, we went off the record for a moment to clarify a word for the Court Reporter. Q Mrs. Michell, do you know Mr. Ray Ingraham? A No. Q Do you know Andrew Dennis? A Yes, I know him. Q Does he live in Moricetown? A Yes, he lives here. Q Is he Wet'suwet'en? A Yes. Q What house is he a member Of? A Tsayu. Comes from Kweese. MR. COHEN: I'm sorry, can we go off the record for a moment please? OFF THE RECORD MR. COHEN Back on the record. We paused to clarify an answer MR. GRANT: For the Reporter. MR. COHEN: For the Reporter. Q Does Andrew Dennis live in accordance with Wet'suwet'en law? A I do not know. He moves around. He moved to Stellaco, where he is married, and he has a house here in Moricetown Q Do you know Charlotte Dennis? A No. It could be one of his children. Q The full name is Charlotte Rose Dennis; do you know Charlotte Rose Dennis? A No. I do not know all the children of the name. Q Who is Andrew Dennis married to? A He is married to Rose --a woman by the name of Rose, and she comes from Kilwoneet territory. Q Does she live in Moricetown? A She lives in THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me. THE WITNESS: she's the wife of Andrew Dennis. BY MR. COHEN: Q Is she Wet'suwet'en? 5-147 MICHELL, E., Cross-Ex., Mr. Cohen A Yes. Her grandmother comes from this territory, this area here, and the grandmother is related to THE INTERPRETER: Excuse me. DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN THE WITNESS: is a sister to my father. They all live in Stellaco. Big Jenny, all of them. BY MR . COHEN : Q Mrs. Michell, do you have a daughter Louise Michell? A Yes, that is Rose's mother. Q Does Louise live in Moricetown? A No, they live in Stellaco. MR. GRANT: If I may just say something, Mr. Cohen? I think from that last answer, there was some confusion. You were asking about this woman or Andrew Dennis' wife, whose name was Rose, then you asked about Louise Michell The way you asked it, you asked if the Witness had a daughter, Louise Michell? MR. COHEN: Yes. MR. GRANT: She suggests -- I am not certain -- but part of her answer referred to her as \"Rose's mother\", so the Witness may have been thinking you were still talking about the other person. You may want to clarify that? MR. COHEN: Thank you, Mr. Grant. MR. GRANT : For the record, my interruption isn't being translated. I am just asking you -- suggesting that you may have been misled. BY MR . COHEN: Q Mrs. Michell, do you have a daughter Louise? A No. Just my name is Emma Louise Michell. The name comes from the Bishop's Confirmation. Q Do you know a Louise Michell? THE INTERPRETER: Asking a question to her Translator, \"Is that the one they call mother to Rose Michell?\" MR. GRANT: The Witness is not sure who you are referring to, Mr. Cohen. MR. COHEN: I'm not convinced of that. Q Is there a Rose Michell? THE INTERPRETER: Again she is questioning the Translator for a comfirmation. MR. COHEN: Did she ask you if there was a Rose Michell? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. I am not aware of the relationship. MR. COHEN: Mrs. Michell, do you MR. GRANT: I'm sorry, you didn't give that answer that you 5-148 MICHELL, E., Cross-Ex., Mr. Cohen just explained to the Witness, did you, Mr. Interpreter? THE INTERPRETER: No. MR. GRANT: Just to have the record clear. BY MR. COHEN: Q Mrs . Michell , did you know a child Charles Martin Dan? A No, I don't know him. Q Very well. Mrs. Michell, earlier in this cross- examination I was asking about Indian Reserves and in particular Indian Reserves upon which Nutseni Indians reside. I had asked you if there were any such Indian Reserves upon which the Nutseni do reside at Sam Goosley Lake, and you said no? A No. Q That Was your answer to the question about there being any Indian Reserves at Sam Goosley Lake. Are there a number of Indian Reserves at Maxam Lake, Mrs. Michell? A The people around Maxam Lake may have reserves around there. There's quite a few of them living around the area Q Are they Nutseni Indians? A They are Wet'suwet'en also. Q Mrs. Michell, are there Gutseni Indians living at Burns Lake? A There was a reserve there belonging to a chief by the name of Daytsii diipii. Burns Lake David and Burns Lake Tom. A foster child or adopted son had sold the territory, the property there, because he was married to a Nutseni. Q Was the chief you referred to, Daytsii diipii, a Wet'suwet'en? A Yes, he was Wet'suwet'en. He was also related to Lame Michell and Burns Lake Tom. Q What house Was he a member Of? A Lame Michell came from Ginehklaiga. Q What Was his clan? A Yes, they were all related. Q Mrs. Michell, are there Indian Reserves at Decker Lake? A They may have had a reserve there, Boo lived around there Q Are there Nutseni Indians living on those reserves? A Boo was Wilat at one time. Q Are there Nutseni Indians living on the reserves at Decker Lake? A No. Q Which Indians lived there? A Donald Alder and his children lived in that area. His wife was Gitdumden, and Burns Lake Tom's daughter. Paddy Isaac's wife also Burns Lake Tom's daughter. Q Are those Indians Wet'suwet'en? 5-149 MICHELL, E., Cross-Ex., Mr. Cohen A They are all Wet'suwet'en. Q Is it your sworn evidence then, Mrs. Michell, that all of the Indians living on the reserves in the areas we have just discussed are Wet'suwet'en? MR. GRANT: Just a moment. I object to that question. You asked who lived at different places and she described individual names. You're now asking her if all the people that live there are Wet'suwet'en. She's given you answer regarding specific people but there may well be people there who she doesn't know. MR. COHEN: Mr. Grant, we have talked about the reserves at Maxam Lake, the reserves at Burns Lake, the reserves at Decker Lake, and in each of those cases she gave evidence. MR. GRANT: I don't dispute that. She gave evidence with respect to specific people, and you asked in each case whether they were Wet'suwet'en or Nutseni. MR. COHEN: She gave evidence with respect to the reserve a about which I was asking. MR. GRANT: Yes. MR. COHEN: And that is what I am continuing you ask about now. MR. GRANT: You are asking if all the people that live on those reserves are Wet'suwet'en, and she was given the names of the specific individuals and then described whether Wet'suwet'en or Nutseni. I strongly object to the question based on your -- this witness may not know every person that lives on all those reserves. MR. COHEN: That is not what her evidence was, Mr. Grant. When I asked about Indians at Maxam Lake she said they were not Nutseni, she said they were Wet'suwet'en. Similarly about the reserves at Burns Lake and additionally about the reserves at Decker Lake. MR. GRANT: She gave you specific names and you asked in each case whether Wet'suwet'en or Nutseni. MR. COHEN: She gave specific names with reference to the reserves. Decker Lake she said that those --my question to her was: were there Nutseni Indians living on those reserves and she said no. She went on to say who lived there and that they were Wet'suwet'en. BY MR. COHEN: Q Mrs. Michell, is it your evidence then that all of the Indians living on reserves at Maxam Lake, at Decker Lake and at Burns Lake are Wet'suwet'en Indians? A Yes. 5-150 MICHELL, E., Re-Exam., Mr. Grant MR. COHEN: Very well . I have no further questions of this witness. Perhaps we should go off the record and re-arrange the seating. Tell her that we'll take a short break. - - - SHORT RECESS RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. GRANT: Q I am going to ask you a few questions now, which we're entitled to ask because of matters I raised by Mr. 0'Byrne or Mr. Cohen. I would like to clarify the question of the Wilat House; did Namox and Wilat share a longhouse at Moricetown? A Yes. Q Was this a different house from the house at Moricetown of Kweese? A Kweese was across the river. Q In Wet'suwet'en is there a word for house meaning the building in which the people lived? A I don't think so. They just called it Wilat's house. And across the river was Kweese's house. MR. GRANT: Mr. Interpreter, when you're talking about the building \"house\", what word do you use in Wet'suwet'en? THE INTERPRETER: The word we use is \"yax\".. MR. O'BYRNE: Mr. Grant, I'm unclear there. Is the Translator giving MR. GRANT: I am asking the Translator for the word that he uses when I ask the question \"What is the building in which the people live . I am asking the Translator that question. MR. O'BYRNE: Can we clarify whether or not the Translator actually used that word in putting it to Mrs. Michell? MR. GRANT: Certainly. Is that the word you used to Mrs. Michell? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. MR. GRANT: Mr. Translator, is that the word you used when you asked the Witness about whether a person belonged to a house? For example, whether the Witness belonged to Wilat's house? Did you use the same word \"yax\" or do you use a different word? THE INTERPRETER: We used the same word \"yax\" except that at times depending on the way the sentence is put it could pertain to clan house or the building house. MR. GRANT: Is it the same word \"yax\" for clan house? THE INTERPRETER: Yes, except that at times I use \"clan house\", \"diidatii yax\" . 5-151 MICHELL, E., Re-Exam., Mr. Grant BY MR. GRANT: Q Mrs. Michell, in Wet'suwet'en when you talk about Wilat's house can that refer to the building in which Wilat and Namox lived, and also can it refer to the close relatives of Wilat on her mother's side? A Yes. Q When we are talking about close relatives on Wilat's mother's side, is Namox one of those people? A Yes. Q Is Kweese related to Wilat? A They are related. Kweese lived on the other side of the river with different clans. The fishing sites were in the same manner. Kweese had one across the river. and Wilat on this side. Q Did Namox use wilat's fishing sites or Kweese's fishing sites? A They shared both sites. If they wanted spring salmon they used the one across the river. Q Is Namox closely related to Wilat? A He was a child. Q I didn't get the answer? A He was a child. THE INTERPRETER: It was his son or daughter. BY MR. GRANT: Q In much of the questioning you were asked what house you belonged to, in cross-examination, and you said Wilat's house? A Yes. Q Would it be correct to say that you belong to Namox's house? A Yes. Q So is it correct to say that Wilat's house and Namox's house are the same? A Yes. Q You were asked on cross-examination whether Dan Michell, Wigetemskol, was asked to speak on behalf of Namox? A Yes. Q Do you remember a feast in which Wet'suwet'en chiefs met with Nutseni chiefs in the last year? A Yes. Q Who Spoke for Namox at that feast? A It Was Dan. Q Is Namox one of the hereditary chiefs of your house? A Yes. He ' s my uncle. Q I am referring to the present holder of the name Namox? A Lucy Holland is present day Namox. She said herself 5-152 MICHELL, E., Re-Exam., Mr. Grant that she's weak and ailing, near death, and she wanted Dan to take her place. And somebody else is going to take Dan's name. Q Is the name Namox -- is the person who holds the name Namox a high chief in that house? A Yes. Q You gave answers about working for the Bell Pole Company and Hansen Pole Company; when you worked at the pole camp did you work on Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en territory? A Belonged to the Gitksan, the territory. Q Did you know the Gitksan chiefs who held that territory? A Yes. Q Did you have their permission to cut poles on their territory? A We got the timber sale off the Forestry. Q Did you talk to the Gitksan chiefs whose territory it was about what you were doing? A We didn't talk to them, the Forestry was controlling everything. Q There has been much reference to your territory referred, to as the Sam Goosley territory, and it's been referred to as Wilat's territory; is it also Namox's territory? A Yes. Q You were asked who in your house has permission to use Sam Goosley territory and you said your children did? A Yes. Q Did Namox's children also have the right to use that territory? A Yes. There's also -- they are also permitted to use the territory, even today. They have not been successful in that territory because there is no timber for animal habitat. They hunt moose there but all moose already been shot off by the white people. Q Do the other people who are members of Namox's house, aside from your children and Namox's children, have rights to use the Sam Goosley territory? A Most of the children nowadays are not aware of these things. Q I understand that but do the children of Namox's house have the rights to use the Sam Goosley territory? Do they have the right under the Wet'suwet'en law to use that territory? A Yes. Q Mr. O'Byrne asked you some questions regarding the difference between hereditary chiefs and non-hereditary chiefs; is your name Lilloos a chief's name? A Lilloos is more a woman's name but it is -- it was at 5-153 MICHELL, E., Re-Exam., Mr. Grant one time probably a chief's name. It came from Skeena Crossing. Your grandmother brought it in from Skeena Crossing and she gave it to me. Q So is it correct to say that that name was passed down to you? A It was given Georgewaybain and then in turn she gave it to me. Q Is Wilat a name that has been handed down from one person to another? A Wilat was my grandmother's name, and is a big chief name, and all of a sudden Margaret had that name and it hasn't been finalised yet. Q Is Namox a chief's name that's been passed on? A Yes, that is a chief name also, and also that has been --it was my uncle's and it has been finalised. Q Aside from Namox and Wilat are there any other chiefs' names in the Namox House? A Misaloos and Wigetemskol. They're both chiefs names in that clan. Q Are both those names in Namox's house? A Yes. Q Are there any other chiefs' names besides Namox , Wilat, Wigetemskol and Misaloos in the Namox House? A Boo's one of them. It's also in with Namox and he was the ancestor to Donald Walter .... Q Are there any other - - I'm sorry? A Donald Walters' father. Q So there was Namox, Wilat, Wigetemskol, Misaloos and Boo; are those all the chiefs' names in Namox's house? A That is all. Q Would it be correct to say that all those names have been passed on? When somebody has died they have been passed on to a successor? A Yes. Q Except for Boo, which you have described nobody holds right now? A No. I just jokingly said that one of Caspit's sons I call him Boo, but they are talking about as a result they may give him that name. Q You were asked by Mr. O'Byrne if you did anything other than trapping and hunting on the Sam Goosley territory; that is, the members of Namox's house? A Yes . They've hunted all the time. Q Did Namox's people take fish from the lake? A There was not too much fish in there. There was some trout which they used for food. Q Did they pick berries on the Sam Goosley territory? 5-154 MICHELL, E., Re-Exam., Mr. Grant A No, just recently there's been some berries around the area. Q Did the people use the trees from that territory to build their cabins? A They used the trees for building log cabins. One of my uncles, cabins I believe is still there yet. MR. COHEN: Mr. Grant, like so much of your questioning earlier, it seems that you are leading. MR. GRANT: I am not leading. MR. COHEN: In the extreme here. MR. GRANT: I am not leading at all. I am asking for specificity and I am not leading or suggesting an answer. BY MR. GRANT: Q Did they use any plants on the territory? A There wasn't too many plants. The weather has always been poor in the area. Q Did they make fish nets? A My mother used to make fish nets. Made out of thread. MR. COHEN: Mr. Grant THE WITNESS: They called it Hudson Bay thread, which was found and they used that to make Hudson Bay sold it and they called it skeins. It wasn't wrapped around wood or anything. MR. COHEN: Mr. Grant, I will again suggest you are still leading and I would ask you to refrain from so doing. THE WITNESS: My mother made two nets and they were in the trunk and they burned up at Wuskloocoonee one day, Hudson Bay ranch. Their house burned down then. BY MR. GRANT : Q Before the Hudson Bay thread was here did the Namox people make nets from things that were on the land? A They used -- they used a plant by the name of lilhks. I don't know what the plant is but they used that and twisted it. The bark was really tough. That is what they used to make fish nets. If I'm still alive come summer I am going to show them what it is. (In English) I'll show all of you! MR. COHEN: Was there an answer there that should be translated? MR. GRANT: She said \"I'll show all of you\" pointing around the room to the counsel and everybody in the room. Q Did Namox's people obtain this plant from the Sam Goosley territory? A Yes. That plant grows almost anywhere. It's even around this area also. Q Does Namox need your permission to go on Sam Goosley territory? 5-155 MICHELL, E., Re-Exam., Mr. Grant A Yes. Q You were asked by Mr. Cohen why you can't take the name Wilat and you said \"I don't have everything to make a feast with at that time, that is why I didn't take it\" A Yes, I said that. Q Could you have taken the name Wilat under Wet'suwet'en law without holding a feast, A I could have taken it. Namox and them encouraged me because I had spent a lot of money when my uncle took that name Namox. I made a mistake by not doing so. As a result I said that Alec Tiljoe should sit there instead of me. He didn't spend anything himself. Q You were asked about Peter Alfred whose name is Kanots; is Peter Alfred closer to Madeek or to Woos? A Madeek and Woos and them, they all come from different -- are different from one another. But are in the Gitdumden clan. THE INTERPRETER: Madeek and them are the big chiefs. BY MR. GRANT: Q Who is Kanots closer to, Madeek or Woos? A I'm just thinking that Kanots and Gyologet might be closer. MR. O'BYRNE: Mr. Grant, are you talking chronologically? Geographically? THE WITNESS: Madeek comes from around it's their territory there. Paddy Isaac was in his father's territory. MR. GRANT: Mr. O'Byrne raised a good point. I wanted to be clear with the Witness on this. Q When I talked about Madeek is -- or is Kanots closer to Madeek than to Woos, I am talking about in terms of their relationship within the Gitdumden clan, not their territory? A I think also might be closer related to Madeek also. As of today most Gitdumden are related closely also. Q This morning you were asked by Mr. Cohen whether or not members of Wilat's house hunt? A Yes, they hunt but have no place to hunt. Where they could hunt all the timber has gone out of it and they have no place to hunt. There is some beaver in creeks now. Q Does Dan Michell hunt? A Yes, he goes up there. Q Does Alfred Mitchell hunt? A Yes, sometimes he goes up there. Billy goes up. He sometimes lives up there. Q That is Billy? A Alfred's brother. 5-156 MICHELL, E., Re-Exam., Mr. Grant Q When you say \"go up there\", you are referring to the Sam Goosley territory? A Yes. Q Do other people in the Namox house hunt in the Sam Goosley territory? A No, I don't think so. Pat and John could be going up but they're registered elsewhere. They're -- their names are on the McDonald Lake area. MR. COHEN: Why don't we go off the record for a moment? MR. GRANT: Just wait a minute. What was the answer? THE INTERPRETER: I didn't get that. MR. GRANT: Just go off the record for a moment. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION MR. GRANT: Go hack on the record, Q You were asked this morning about how Sarah Tait and Tommy Michell were related, how they were related by blood; are Sarah Tait and Tommy Michell, your husband, were they in the same house? Or in the same clan? DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN THE WITNESS: No, they came from different houses. Sarah comes from Kwanbeahwuten. Tommy, my husband, is Taslawuten. Maxam Lake. BY MR . GRANT: Q But they are both Laksilyu? (Question not translated) A They're all Laksilyu. MR. GRANT: Just one moment, I just want ... go off the record for a moment. OFF THE RECORD DISCUSSION MR. GRANT: Go back on the record. For the record, I have shown a letter dated June 1st, 1984 under the letterhead of the Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council apparently written and signed by Neil Sterritt, which is a three page letter referring re: Little Tommy Michell application for license to occupy. A copy of this letter was sent to numerous persons including on the bottom, Tommy Michell, Smithers. I have shown this letter to both of my friends and this letter was Exhibit I in these proceedings in the Affidavit by Michael Goldie of October 10, 1986. Q I would like you, Mrs. Michell, to tell me if you have ever seen that letter? 5-157 MICHELL, E., Re-Exam., Mr. Grant MR. COHEN: Before it is put to the Witness, Mr. Grant, I will ask you on the record if that letter is listed on your List of Documents? MR. GRANT: I don't have my List of Documents here and I would have MR. COHEN: For the record I would say I have not seen that record before today. MR. 0'BYRNE: Document. MR. COHEN: That document before today. MR. GRANT: The Attorney General of Canada have not seen many of the documents on the List of Documents because they've only asked to look at a few of them. MR. COHEN MR. GRANT MR. COHEN Are you saying it is on your List of Documents? I have already answered that question, Mr. Cohen. You confused it by your last comment. BY MR . GRANT: Q I would ask you, Mrs. Michell, have you seen a copy of that letter before today? A Is this the letter you're referring to? Q The letter is a letter dated June 1st, 1983 addressed to Mr. McGregor, Regional Director of Lands and Housing, and it is re: Little Tommy Michell application for license to occupy and it is signed by Neil. Sterritt. It appears that a copy was sent to Tommy Michell. Do you recall receiving a copy of that letter? A I don't know, I may have seen it. I give letters to Dan. Q Okay. To save some time and given the time that we have here A What house is this referring to? Q Let the Witness look at the letter? A Is that the letter referring to the house that is being built now? Q Mrs. Michell, the letter is lengthy and I don't want you to have to go through the whole letter but let me ask you this question: was your husband Tommy Michell also known as Little Tommy Michell? A Yes, it is the same person. Is this regarding the house? Q No. I will arrange for a copy -- for the Witness to have a copy of it. It's not with respect to the house. One last question I would like to ask you. You were asked this morning by Mr. Cohen whether or not the killing of your brother by Donald Gray -- and I am paraphrasing -- was a way under Wet'suwet'en law to resolve disputes? A Yes, he was sick and he is doing it according to Wet'suwet'en law. 5-158 MICHELL, E., Re-Exam., Mr. Grant Q Under the Wet'suwet'en law A I don't know why we did not go to -- refer them to the law. Q Under Wet'suwet'en law if a person trespassed in the old days on another person's territory without permission that person could be killed, is that right? A Yes, they killed one another for trespassing in the old days. Q When that was done would the person who killed the trespasser publicly acknowledge that they had killed a trespasser? A I don't know, they may have done that that way. Mrs. Michell, just before I finish my last set of questioning, I had asked if you could sing the song of Namox's house relating to your territory and I notice that you have brought your drum today, and I wonder if you could sing one of the songs which relates to that territory? A They didn't have songs for the territory. They sang songs only in fun, parties, or something. Q Does Namox or Wigetemskol have a song which belongs with their crest? A Yes, Wigetemskol has a song. Q Can you sing that song for us? A You mean now? MR. GRANT: Yes . THE INTERPRETER: She says for you to get up and dance! She said splash your tail like a beaver! WITNESS SINGS SONG THE WITNESS: (In English) How come you never danced! MR. GRANT: Those are all THE WITNESS: You want another Song? MR. GRANT: If you want to sing another song now, you can sing it for us. THE INTERPRETER: Off the record? MR. GRANT: No, we are on the record. WITNESS SINGS SONG THE INTERPRETER: DO you want me ... . MR. GRANT: Can you say the words that were sung? THE INTERPRETER: Courses are repeating. Watch him slap his tail as he swims and watch the bark flow from him. Basically what the song is about. It is the beaver song. 5-159 MICHELL, E., Re-Exam., Mr. Grant BY MR . GRANT : Q The Tsayu are the Beaver clan? THE INTERPRETER: Yes. THE WITNESS: They're Tsayu. Also Eagle. Mountain Goats. BY MR. GRANT: Q Does the song you sang belong to Wigetemskol? A Yes, that is his song. Alfred Michell sang that song. He made that song for Wigetemskol. These songs are very expensive. They're also paid for. Q When is that song used by Wigetemskol? A When my uncle died, when he first had that song made for him. MR. GRANT: Subject to as was agreed because the Witness was not able to sing the song before that if either of you, Mr. Cohen or Mr. O'Byrne, have questions arising out of the song or questions following from that, I'm through with my Re-Examination. MR. COHEN: I have no such questions. MR. O'BYRNE: Neither do I. MR. GRANT: Thank you very much, Mrs. Michell, for these many days and we are completed this Commission. Thanks a lot for singing the song at the end of your evidence. It was very helpful. DISCUSSION IN WET'SUWET'EN THE INTERPRETER: She was saying if I was feeling high I would sing you lots of Tsayu songs. MR. GRANT: All right. Go off the record now. PROCEEDINGS COMPLETED AT 10.50 p.m. I hereby certify the foregoing to be a true and accurate transcript of the proceedings herein, to the best of my skill and ability. A. Veronica Duffy (Ms) (formerly Harper) Official Court Reporter AVD:Jan. 28/87 B.CS.R.A. #263"@en . "Pagination does not continue directly from previous document, possibly due an omitted cover page."@en . "Trial proceedings"@en . "British Columbia"@en . "KEB529.5.L3 B757"@en . "KEB529_5_L3_B757_1986-12-18_01"@en . "10.14288/1.0018283"@en . "English"@en . "Uukw, Delgam, 1937-"@en . "Indigenous peoples--Canada"@en . "Oral history"@en . "Wet'suwet'en First Nation"@en . "Vancouver : University of British Columbia Library"@en . "Vancouver : United Reporting Service Ltd."@en . "Images provided for research and reference use only. For permission to publish, copy, or otherwise distribute these images, please contact the Courts of British Columbia: http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/"@en . "Original Format: University of British Columbia. Library. Law Library."@en . "[Commission Evidence of Emma Michell Vol. 5]"@en . "Text"@en . ""@en .