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Official report of the speech delivered by Hon. Sir Charles Tupper, K.C.M.G., C.B., Minister of Raillways… Tupper, Charles, Sir, 1821-1915 1882

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Hon. Sir Charles Tupper, k.c.m.g.,c.b.
Minister of Raillways and Canals,
Printed by MacLean, Roger & Co., Wellington Street.
|   HOUSE   OF   COMMONS,   9H    W
Tuesday, 18th April, 1882.
Sir CHAELES TUPPER moved the second reading of
Bill (No. 14 i) to authorize the construction on certain conditions of the Canadian Pacific Eailway, through some
other pass than the Yellow Head Pass. He said:—
About a year ago I had the pleasure of submitting for
the consideration of this House a contract for the
construction of tho Canadian Pacific Eailway, and I
have now the greater pleasure of calling the attention of the House to the results of the adoption, by Parliament, of that contract, and of its ratification. The ratification
of that contract was made, and letters patent under it were
issued, on the 16th February, 1881. I may safely say that
the progress made in that great work from that time to this
has been eminently satisfactory. The most convenient mode
in which I can make a rapid survey of the work will be to
commence at the eastern end, or the point termed Callander,
at the eastern end of Lake Nipissing, where the contract
for the Canadian Pacific Railway properly commences, and
I may say that considerable progress has been made
towards the construction of the first section of the
line at that point. It was hoped that the construction of
the Canadian Pacific Railway, under the subsidy granted
by Parliament, from Pembroke to Callander woukl have
been completed at an earlier date, but it has not been found
practicable to complete that section at an earlier period than
something like the 1st of July of the present year, and ii
will be readily seen that it would be very difficult indeed
for the contractors to make very material progress with the
first section until they had obtained easier access by tho
completion of that which was formerly the Canada Central,
now a portion of the Canadian Pacific Railway,
to that point. Notwithstanding that, I may say
that a careful re-survey and re-location of the line has
enabled    the    country    to    obtain   a   better   line   in 2
mm-       •m
every respect than was supposed to exist up to
Sturgeon River or tho point where the line became
common to the interior line, passing away to the head of
Lake Superior or to tho branch as it was when proposed from
that point to the Sault St. Marie. The papers which I
have just laid on the Table disclose the fact that an application has been made after examination of the subject by the
Canadian Pacific Railway Company for permission to locate
their line from the point that was common to the Sault Ste,
Marie branch, to the north of Lake Superior in the direction
of the Sault Ste. Marie; that that which was formerly regarded as a branch to the Sault Ste. Marie, may, to a large
extent, become a portion of the trunk line. A careful survey
which had been made of the section from Algoma running
easterly to connect at the point whero the Sault Ste. Mario*
branch commenced, has shown a very favorable section of
country for the construction of the road, with the advantage that at Algoma Mills connection is made with navigation at tho waters of Lake Huron.
Mr. MACKENZIE. I would suggest that the hon. member
would state, as ho goes along, what particular survey he
refers to. For instance, in 1877, a survey was made on
nearly a direct line from Can tin's Bay to the mouth of Pic
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. That is not the survey to
which I am now referring. I am referring to the survey
and location which was made under the hon. gentleman's
Administration, and subsequently re-surveyed under my
instructions, from Callander for about sixty or seventy miles
on the first section of the line which I call the interior line,
running from that point north to the head of Lake
Superior; and although a g|>od deal of care had been taken
in reference to that survey, a further examination of the
line with the view of cyatrying it westward instead
of northward in the direction of the Sault Ste.
Marie, has resulted in obtaining a very favorable
line from Callander to the crossing of the Sturgeon
River, and away on from that to Algoma Mills. For that
distance, from Callander to Algoma Mills, a distance
of 182 miles, through a favorable country, the most severe
grade encounter^, is one of fifty-three feet to the mile. It
is confidently anticipated that tho Company will be enabled
to lay track upon fifty miles this season west of Callander.
|Biat is the calculation, and they have already placed under
contract a section from Algoma Mills, running east-
wardly to meet the line from Callander for a distance of
sixty miles, on which it is expected the track will be laid
this season, so that it is,  without doubt, ascertained that
>L, communication during tie next season—that is in the year
following the present—will be complete from this point to
the waters of Lake Huron at Algoma Mills, a point 182
miles west of Callander Station. The sixty miles east of
Algoma Mills are under contract, and it is expected tho
track will be laid upon that portion this season, so that tho
seventy-two miles intervening between Sturgeon River ard
the portion now under contract to Algoma Mills will
be attacked at both ends, and be consequently completed
during the year. The main line, as it is now proposed by
tho Canadian Pacific Railway Company, is intended to run
westward from Algoma Mills to within twenty or thirty
miles fo Sault Ste. Marie, running through a favorable
country. They have mado formal application for
this chango of location. The G-overnment have passed
an Order in Council, of which I have just placed
a copy in the hands of the leader of the Opposition, agreeing to adopt that location provided it is
found upon further survey that they are able to show the
plans and profiles of a through line from that point within
twenty or thirty miles of Sault Ste. Marie, running nearer
to the coast to the head of Lake Superior. Until that plan
and location are submitted for the approval of the Governor
in Council it is not the intention to pay any portion of tho
subsidy intended for the Canadian Pacific Railway upon any
portion common to that line, and what I call the interior
line, running from the north of Lake Superior to a point
sixty or seventy miles north-west of Callander Station. I
have no doubt myself, after the information I have received
from the engineer of the Company, that a very fair line
will be obtained in that locality. We have only very
recently received information from the able engineer who
has been going over the most difficult portion of it, that,
although the line will be probably attended with greater
cost in construction, it is believed that a very good line,
with grades not inferior to those that we would have been
obliged to encounter in the interior line in the neighborhood
of the upper part of Lake Superior, will be attained. There
will be very great advantage, as hon. gentlemen
opposite will see, from the adoption of the proposed line. In
the first place, I may say that the line is assumed 'to be
no longer, tho distance will be no greater in the one case
than in tho other; it is about 650 miles, whether you go by
the interior line from Callander Station to the head of Lake
Superior, or whether you go to within twenty-five or thirty
miles of the Sault Ste. Marie line and thence away to the north
to Thunder Bay. I may say it will be at once &een that as tho
line will run in the neighborhood of the waters of Lake
Superior,   there   is   much  tags   likelihood   of its   being «0
bstructed by the snowfall, the snowTall not being so great
on the coast of Lake Superior as it would be on tho interior
line.   There will also be greater advantage in construction.
While you would be compelled to carry on the construction
of the interior line to a large extent from the two ends, the
one from tho head of Lake Superior running eastwardly,
.and the other from Callander Station running westwardiy,
-access by the various rivers and inlets from the waters
of Lake Superior will enable this work to be attacked at
-different points along the line, and will enable supplies to be
thrown in much more easily than otherwise would have
been the case, and in that way enable the time to be very
much shortened during which the line can bo constructed
than  would be possible if constructed on the interior line.
As I have said before, I have every reason to believe tha(.
it will be found quite practicable to construct a good line
in that locality, and it will be obviously desirable to do so
for the reasons I have mentioned, in case it be found practicable. When that day arrives it is proposed to adopt the location
•of the line, and then to treat I§1 that portion of the line from
"Callander Station running to within twenty-five or thirty
miles of Sault Ste. Marie, on by the head of Lake Superior
to Thunder Bay, as a portion of the Canadian Pacific Railway proper.    It is  also   proposed,   during   tho   coming
summer, to finally locate the line from Thunder Bay to tho
head of Lake Superior  running   eastwardly,   and   it   is
expected that by ttlfe end of the present season they will bo
^enabled to put under contract some fifty or sixty miles of
road running from Prince Arthur's Landing in this direction
towards meeting the other line which is being extended
from this side.   Now, Sir, I may say that there will be ar
additional advantage from having the line  constructed in
4he mode proposed, because so soon as the waters of Lake
Huron at Algoma Mills are tapped there is a means of
bringing traffic from these waters on to the  lino, and the
proximity of the line to the waters of Lake Superior will
also furn|gh an additional means of reaching tho main line
and carrying on the traffic in connection with it.   It is
oxpected    by    the   Government,    as    I   held    out   the
hope   a   year   ago,  that  we   will  open the   road   from
Princo Arthur's Landing through to Winnipeg in the month
of  July   next—not  that   the   road   will   be   completed,
but   that that will be accomplished to which we have
.-steadily worked, the  getting a through track laid over
that distance, so that we may carry immigrants into the?
.great North-West through our own country, over the lines
of railway from Quebec to the waters of the Georgian Bay,
thence by water to Prince Arthur's Landing, and so over
our own lino into the great North-West, iurnishing a much easier, a much cheaper, a much more rapid, and I may say,,
so fer as the difficulty of getting immigrants through &
neighboring country is concerned, a much safer line of
communication in our own interests than any which at present exists. Of the whole of 433 miles from Prince Arthur's
Landing to Winnipeg, the track has now been laid upon 401
miles, leaving only thirty-two miles to complete the
link. On contract 41, from the 199th mile to the 233rd
mile, the road is expected to be finished early in the present
season. On contract 42, from the 233rd mile to the 300thr
mile, it will take a considerable portion of the next season as
well as of this to finish the work. The contract time for
finishing that work is July of next year, but I shall be
extremely glad if tho work can be quite finished
during the next two or three succeeding months. However, as I have already stated, I have every reason
to believe that during the coming month of July,
we shall have through communication by rail,
there being only thirty-two miles of track now remaining
to be completed on that line. The total expenditure on tho
line from Prince Arthur's Landing to Selkirk up to tho
present time is $13,234,900, and the balance, which I
estimated last year would be sufficient to complete it,,
of $1,470,100, making $14,705,000, or the estimate
which I ventured to lay upon the Table of the House lasi
year as the cost of that work; and after an additional year's-
experience the House will be glad to learn that I have no-
reason to suppose that that estimate will be exceeded.
Mr BLAKE.   Will the hon. gentleman give the figures
of the present expenditure?
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. The present expenditure is.
$13,234,900, leaving a balance of $1,470,100, to complete
the work as covered in my estimate of a year ago. The
moment that the through track is laid in the month of July
now coming, we expect to be able to carry, without
materially interfering with the progress of the
work, some traffic and the through immigrants which
require to be .provided for. I may say, Sir, that the*
Canadian Pacific Railway Company has decided to establish
its headquarters in the city of Winnipeg. The station*
grounds, the workshops and all the paraphernalia that aro
needed to carry on and operate a great line of railway, are>
to be placed at that point; and this decision having been,
reached, an investigation was made by them as to ihe most
direct mode of carrying the lino westward. As the Houses
is aware, the Government had placed under contract the
first 100 miles of that road, west of Winnipeg. The Company
decided that it would bo better to run a direct line wcs
froxifc 6
the city of Winnipeg, in the direction of Portage la Prairie,
than to continue to follow the line which the Government
had adopted, and they were therefore permitted to abandon
that portion of the line between Stonewall—a distance of
twenty-one miles—from Winnipeg to Portage la Prairie,
and construct the road from Winnipeg in a more direct line
to Portage la Prairie. By this change, the distance has
been shortened between Winnipeg and Portage la Prairie
thirteen mile3. The Company, however, are bound to continue to operate the line under this alteration—which was
agreed to—for twenty-one miles f rom Winnipeg to what is
called Stonewall, the principal place on the line between
Winnipeg and Portage la Prairie, over the line which was
being constructed by the Government before the work
passed into the hands of the Company. The, line as now
located is therefore a direct line between Winnipeg and
Portage la Prairie, and in the same westerly direction crosses
the Assiniboine at Brandon. It then follows the general
course of the Qu'Appelle River to Moose Jaw Creek, a distance of 404 miles from Winnipeg, which is the most westerly
point up to the present time approved of by the Governor
in Council; and I may say here, that it is not the intention
of the Governor in Council to approve of any further portion
of the line of the Canadian Pacific Railway proper, or make
any payments in regard to any construction west of that
point, uniil it is ascertained that there is a better line in
the interests of the country, so far as we. are able to judge,
through Kicking Horse Pass, than that we had previously
obtained through Yellow Head Pass. From Moose Jaw
Creek, we are quite aware there is no difficulty in getting a
line to the Pass which was authorized by Parliament, and
the Bill, which I have now submitted for the consideration
of the House, asks for authority to make the change only
if we believe it to be in the interests of the country. I will
come more particularly to that point a little later on.
I may say, however, Sir, that the section of the country
through which the lino runs direct from Winnipeg, in the
most direct course that could be obtained from Winnipeg
to Moose Jaw Creek, and as it is proposed to be constructed, is very favorable both as regards the grades
of the railway and also as regards the character
of the country which is to be opened up. Tho district is
one of a very promising character, which will undoubtedly
be very rapidly filled with a vigorous and enterprising
population. Now, Sir, it is expected by the Company that
they will be able to lay no less than 500 miles of track in
that direction this season; there are 161 miles from Winnipeg now under traffic to a point which, I think, is called
Flat Creek, about thirty-one miles from Brandon, which, as you are aware, is about 130 miles from Winnipeg. The
Company expect to be able to lay some 500 miles of track
in a direct westerly line during the coming season; but, as I
have already stated, the Government does not iutend to
make any payments on any portion of the line beyond
Moose Jaw Creek until they are satisfied that a better line
can be obtained for the Canadian Pacific Railway by
going south to Kicking Horse Pass than had already been
obtained in the direction ©f tho Yellow Head Pass. The
location of the Canadian Pacific Railway being
more southerly than was intended or contemplated
two years ago, I think will be attended with
this advantage: that the branches will require to be
fewer, and, a* is perfectly obvious, the fewer the branches
are the longer they will be, and the greater the facility
with which they can be operated. The whole of the country to
the north of the Canadian Pacific Railway is open for the
construction of long branches running in various directions,
and from their length, they can be operated with greater
advantage and to greater profit than ehort branches could
be worked. The Company have about 8,000 tons of rails
now at the end of their track, and a very large quantity H
sleepers, and an enormous quantity of rails are now in
transit from Great Britain and the Continent, to carry on
with great vigor the prosecution of these works.
The payments up to the present date to the
Company have been $1,610,000 in cash, and 1,610,000
acres of land. The branches of the Canadian Pacific
Railway, as the House is aware, are, 1st. The branch from
Winnipeg to Emerson, which, including the cost of the road
to Selkirk, has cost, up to January, 1882, $1,538,083. The
earnings upon this branch during the ten months that the
Government operated it, before it was transferred to the
Company, up to the 30th April, 1881, am^rnted to $291,498.
I mention this more especially because I think that a return
which was moved for by the hon. member for Westmere-
land has not yet been laid on the Table.
Mr. BLAKE.   What have been the receipts since?
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. I will be very glad to
give the hon. gentleman that information. Tho
traffic has increased enormously since that date.
From 1st of May, 1881, to 31st of March, 1882, there were no
less than 21,486 through passengers, and the present rate
of passengers, as I understand it, is from 300 to 1,000 per
day; the passengers in Inarch last numbered 5,684,
and from the 1st to the 15th April, no less than 3,354. I may
say that as they take all persons below twelve years of age
without tickets, those passengers only embrace what we may 8
term adults, or do not embrace what I suppose would quite
double the number of the passengers, if those children were
ihsluded, as was of course the case in the number of
immigrants, as stated by me on a former occasion as having
com© in. I may say, for the information of the hon. gentleman who seems very anxious to anticipate it—that the
reeeipts from the operation of the Canadian Pacific Railway
from the time that it passed into the hands of the Company,
on the 1st of May down to the present time, and to
the last date of information was over $600,000.
Mr. BLAKE.    What is the last day of the information ?
Sg| CHARLES TUPPER. I see by the paper that the
earnings from May, 1881, to February, 1882, inclusive^
amounted to $193,000 for passengers, $391,000 for freight,
and $10,000 for mails and jexpress; making a total of
$603,000 for that period.
Sir ALBERT J. SMITH.   For the whole line ?     |«Bg
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. Yes, for the whole line under
operation—from Rat Portage on one side to Flat Creek,
fjfjirty miles beyond Brandon, on the other, and from
Winnipeg to Pembina. The Canadian Pacific Railway, in
addition to the line they have constructed from Winnipeg
westward, and which is now in operation for the 161 miles,
have also laid some eighty-nine miles of a branch
which is called the Winnipeg and Pembina Mountain
Branch, running in a so&th-westerly* direction from
Winnipeg to the border, and with a branch of
twenty miles connecting that point with the town
of Emerson at the frontier. For 100 miles this branch
it is expected, will be opened for traffic during the present
season. It is now ready for the rails with the exception of
the twenty mile branch to Emerson, and it is expected that
100 miles of this branch will be in operation during the coming season. They have also projected another branch from
Brandon south-westerly, about fifteen miles, to Souris,
thence west, in all 195 miles- I should have mentioned
also that the length of the,Winnipeg and Pembina Mountain Branch is 235 miles.
Mr. MACKENZIE. Where does the Souris Branch strike
the main line?
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. At Brandon, running
thence south-westerly about fifteen miles and then westerly,
with about fifteen miles between it and the main
line.   The    next    section come    to    is,   of coarse,
last,   and   it   is
Company   has-
which  will    be
difficulty   with
dealt    with
which    the 9
to engage—I mean the portion through tho Rocky Mountains to Kamloops. I may say that I only received this*
morning the latest information as to the grounds which led
the Company to be somewhat sanguine that they would be
able to obtain a better pass for the railway than the Yellow
Head Pass—npt better in point of grades, because that
would be impossible. If they get through Kicking Horse-
Pass I am afraid it will be by heavier grades than the other -r
but it is bo obviously in the interests of the country and of a
great trans-continental line like this, that it thould be-
rendered as short as possible, that great exertions are being-
made, and the Company are prepared to incur great
expense provided they can shorten the line, as-
they believe they can, by some seventy-nine miles.
This is a matter which would be of great importance not
only to the line but to the country, because it would
penetrate the best district in British Columbia, that is the
Kamloops district—a district which would only be skirted
if the road went by the Yellow Head Pass, at the confluence-
of the Fraser River and Lake Kamloops. I will read to
the House the latest information obtained with reference to-
the probability of getting a pass by the line which is proposed by this Bill—or rather the Bill proposes that the-
Governor in Council, if they believe it is in the interests of
the country, may authorize the Company to deviate from
the pass which was fixed by the contract and the Act of last
Session. This telegram is from Mr. Van Horn, the Superintendent who is in charge of all the operations at the central
point of the Canadian Pacific Railway. It was telegraphed
this morning to Mr. Drinkwater as follows :-—
"Major Rogers reports that there is no question about feasibility of
good line with easy grades througk Kicking Horse Pass although work
will be very expensive. The crossing of the Selkirk Range is ihe only
thing in doubt, but explorations bave progressed sufficiently to justify?
belief that they can be crossed by use of some long tunnels. The worst
that can happen in case of failure to cross Selkirk is, that the line may
be forced round the great bend of the Columbia, which would considerably increase distance ; but to save this distance work will be undertaken that would ordinarily be consideied impracticable on account of
'•-i^^^K/S";:ft-^^S:       S    W. G. VAN HORN.    M
That is to say, it is now found that the Kicking Horse Pass-
is perfectly practicable as we have known for some time.
Mr. MACKENZIE.   Since 1873. ^^^^^^B^SJ
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. Yes, since 1873. But the.
difficulty, of course, as my hon. friend knows, is that pre-
sented by the Selkirk Range, which all the surveys carried
on by the Government led to the belief was not practicable..
If it be found to be practicable it will only  be so by under- 10
taking    to    shorten    this   line   by   some   seventy-nine
miles,   probably    by    considerable    increase    of   the
expense    of     construction   over    that    which     would
be involved by passing through the Yellow Head Pass.
The importance of making that saving of seventy-nine miles
is evidently considered so great by the Company that, as they
jstate, they would be prepared to take it even at an expense
that would ordinarily be considered quite impracticable. The
engineers    of    my    Department—those   who have   any
knowledge of the subject—concur in the opinion that it'
this shorter line is obtained by piercing the Selkirk Range,
it will have to be done at a very great cost indeed.   The
line, I presume, would be considerably shortened by going
through the Kicking Horse Pass, and round what is called
the big bend of the Columbia River ; but there is not sufficient information to enable one to speak with any certainty
as to how the distance would compare with the Yellow Head
Pass.   The section of eountry opened would not be quite as
favorable in that case as in the other.    I will now read the
memorandum which Mr. SmelKe, who is Engineer in Ghief
At the Company's headquarters in Montreal, has placed in
my hands with reference to this matter, as I told him there
was a desire on the part of the House to get the fullest,
latest, and most authentic information that could be given
on that pdfnt.    He says in the  memorandum,  which is
dated the 15th of April :
c< From the report of Mr. A. B. Rogers, who conducted the surveys
in British Columbia during the season of 1881, I obtain the following
u That a thorough preliminary survey of the country was made
between the Kicking Horse Creek and Mount Back, including the Vermillion and White Man's Pass routes, and a partial survey of the route from
the head of Bow River to the summit of Howse Pass, and also of the
Kananaskis route. The time occupied on these surveys extended only
from the 1st of August to the 1st of October, the parties not haying
arrived as early as was expected.
" The route selected for location passes up the Bow River to its
junction with Bath Creek, thence up Bath Creek westerly about five
miles, thence south westerly about one mile to Summit Lake, about one
<mile long, and from which the waters flow in both directions. This
lake lies from four to five mile3 farther east than is shown on the maps
as the summit of the Rocky Mountains. At this point, the line will
thence follow down the east branch of the Kicking Horse Creek t© the
-Columbia River.
" From the result3 of the 'surveys, as far as made, Mr.  Rogers is sanguine that the descent from the Kicking Horse summit to the Columbia i
$|iver will not exceed eighty feet per mile, and that the gradients from
Bow Kiver to the summit will be raised.
"Mr. Rogers also made a reconnaissance from Kamloops easterly to
the summit of the Selkirk Range, andlrom general observation and barometric readings he states that gradients will be obtained notexceediag
|l|xty-six feet p-r mile between Kamloops and the north fork of the Illi-
cille West River, and from thence to the summit of the Selkirk Range
the gradient will not exceed eighty reet to the mile.
I la consequence of difficulties which beset Mr. Rogers, arising from
a scarcity of supplies, he was unable to specially examine the country 11
between the summit""of the Selkirk Range and the East Branch of the
Columbia River, a distance ot about thirty miles.
" Before leaving the summit, however, he ascended the " Divide "
and while seeing generally a very broken country to the eastward, he
observed that one of the ravines led in the desired direction for a distance of quite ten miles. There is also on the west side of the Columbia
a large stream, Beaver Creek, which has its source in the vicinity of frhis
broken country. From these obiervations Mr. Rogers feelB assured that
the distance in which difficulties may be expected in crossing the
Selkirk Range, will be reduced to ten or twelve miles."
That, I may say to hon. gentlemen opposite, is in substance
all the information we have in our possession. As will be
seen by the Bill now under consideration, it is not proposed
to ask authority from Parliament to permit the adoption of
any pass, however feasible, that is nearer than 100 miles
from the boundary on the United States, which will, I
think, be regarded as a quite sufficient distance to protect
thoroughly the national character and interests of the line.
I will now, Sir, refer to the progress of the work from
^Kamloops to Emory's Bar. That work, as hon. gentlemen
opposite are aware, has been vigorously pressed, and the
total value of the work done under the contract covering
that 127 miles, is $1,979,974.   M|yBH||jW     I
Mr. ANGLIN.   To what date?   1*    fiffiH '    MmM
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. That is to the latest date to
which I have information of the progress of the work
II Mr. BLAKE.   What date is that? ^K^iP||S^l
Sir CHARLES TUPPER.   At this moment it is not in
my power to state the exact date to which this information
is brought down. I may say that the date at which, that
work is required to be completed under the contract is
July, 1885, and that I have every reason to believe that
the work will be finished within the time stipulated by
the contract. Apparently, the amount of the work is
not sufficient to indicate that that would be done; but
hon. gentlemen will perceive that the expenditure on the
initial works has been applied in such a way as to
render the future progress of the work much more rapid
than was possible until a large portion of very heavy and
difficult work was undertaken, and means of access were thus
obtained to the other portions of the line. As hon. gentlemen
opposite are also aware, eighty-six miles from Emory's
Bar to Port Moody have also recently been placed under
contract, at an amount of $2,486,000, and the date fixed
for the completion of that work is the same as the other. It
is easier to complete that eighty-six miles than some sections,
oven in their present condition, above that, in consequence
of the work being reached more easily by the Fraser River
and Burrard Inlet, the contractors thus being enabled to 12
attaek it at various points more easily than it was possible
to do in regard to tho other work It may, perhaps, be
interesting to the House for me to glance at tho estimates
which have been made for those contracts on the main line
of the Canadian Pacific Railway, and to state the results,
so far as it is in my power, down to the present moment.
The first contract from the Kaministiquia to Sunshine Creek
was a contract for forty-five miles of road from the Kaministiquia to Shebandowan, but twelve and a half miles of
that line was abandoned owing, to a change of policy on the
part of the Government. The amount of the contract for the
whole forty-five miles was $406,194 ; but if you deduct the
twelve and a-half miles, it would leave the contract price for
the thirty-two and a-half miles at $293,360. I am glad to be
able to say that that contract will be completed according
to the present estimate—and of course the work is so far
completed as to enable one to speak with a great
deal of certainty—for $313,200, or only $19,840 in
excess of the price estimated for in the contract.
pom Sunshine Creek to English River, contract 25, the
present estimate for the work is $1,417,208, and the contract price was $1,047,061, and the construction of the
work will exceed the contract price by $380,147. From
English River to Eagle River, contract 41, the present
estimate for the completing of the work is $1,767,357, and
the contract price was $2,300,196, or $532,839 less than the
amount we expected to be obliged to pay when the contract
'%rias made.
contract was  for
Mr. MACKENZIE.    I thought the
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. No, it was for $2,300,196;
and I may say we hope to be required to pay a larger
amount, and for this reason : The contract was so made,
that if the track was laid during the past season, by tho 1st
of July, and if the contract was completed by the 1st of
July of next year, the contractors were to be entitled to the
larger sum named here. Well, it is quite true the rails
were not laid by the 1st of July; but the object the
Government had in making that contract was attained,
and that was to provide the mlans of attacking
the adjoining contract from both ends; and so
the work was so far completed as to have
the track laid at a comparatively short time after the 1st
of July. And as the contractors incurred great additional expense in making that advance, an Order in Council
was passed declaring that if they complied wi,th the second
portion of the contract, requiring the completion of the
work by the 1st of July next year, they should bo held to have IS
complied with the portion of the contract which depended
on having the track laid by the 1st of July this year;
because the expenditure made was com men surately great,
and the advantage to the country is the same as it would
have been had the original arrangement been adhered to.
I wish to explain the manner in which I am treating these
figures. Should we be able to complete that work for the
closest estimate we could make at the present, we shall save
$532,839 asbetween the cost of the work and the price at
which it was let. Hon. gentlemen are aware that great efforts
have been made to improve the location oi the line after the
contract was made, and both on this and the adjoining section Mr. Fleming was able, by great exertiong,
to shorten the line, although most elaborate surveys had
been previously made. When the Government had undertaken to do the work, it was found that by great efforts
the line could be shortened by several miles, as well
as very considerable reductions made in the work in addi-
tion. There were some changes in the character of tho
structures that were contemplated, which also enabled us,
especially on the adjoining section of the work, to make a
very considerable saving. On the section from Eagle River
to Keewatin, 42, the present estimate is $2,904,153 \ the
contract price was $4,130,707; so we expect to effect a
saving on this section of $1,225,554. On the contract from
Keewatin to Cross Lake, section 15, as the House is aware, a
change was made in the character of the work.
Mr. ANGL1N.    Will the hon.  gentleman describe tha,
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. I think it has been the subject of such elaborate discussion, and there is so much information in the hands of the hon. gentlemen concerning ij|g
that I do not think it would be right to trespass on the indulgence of the House by detaining it by a further specific
statement. But I may say, in general terms, that solid em-
bankments were substituted for trestle work, and ihe
reasons for that will be found in the reports of the engineers
during the time my hon, predecessor was in office, and also
in documents subsequently laid before the Government, and
which led them to the conclusion that the change would bo
in the interests of the country. That change has added to
the cost something like $250,000. So, as estimated, the
figures stand thus: Tho work is almost finished, or expected
to be actually finished immediately; the estimated cost of
the section is $2,619,583—and the contract price is $1,594,-
083. Added to that price is $250,000, caused by the
change in the character of the work, and you have $1,844,
085, or an amount at present, of $775,500 more to construct
the work than the contract price agreed upon. 14
Mr. BLAKE.   Not more that the original price.
Sir CHARLES TUPPRR. Not the original contract
price; but the hon. gentleman will see that you add to the
original contract price $250,000, making a total of
$1,844,845. There is between that and the cost of the work
the sum $755,500. Now, I come to the work from Cross
Lake to Selkirk, section 14, between the contract just
referred to and Red River. The contract price for that work
was $402,950, and the estimated cost is $733,602, or $330,652
more than the contemplated cost. I now come to the four
contracts between Kamloops and Emory's Bar, 60, 61, 62,
and 63, making 127 miles; and I am glad to be able to say
that on 63, while the price of the contract was $1,746,150,
the amount we expect to complete the work for is $1,192,600,
or $553 550 less than anticipated.
Mr. MACKENZIE. Does your first estimate embrace
the $250,000 set down for contingencies.
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. I am taking the actual
estimate of the work to be executed; and in that
case, although great attention and expense were
devoted to as careful and as thorough a survey as possible,
it had to be made through so rugged and difficult a
country, one almost impassible, that it was utterly impossible to expect to obtain such correct location surveys as
could only have been made when a staff of engineers were on
the ground, engaged in tho construction of the road, and
which it may be in their power to secure, with a reduction
of the work, by every possible means they can devise.
Mr. MACKENZIE. Will the hon. gentleman state what
reduction was made on the radius of the curves ?
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. We have sacrificed nothing
in that respect that will, in tho least degree, injure the
character of the road; and having travelled, as I have, over
the Union Pacific and Central Pacific Railways, around
curves much sharper than any to be met on the line of
the Canadian Pacific Railway—at a very considerable
speed—I am able to say that pur road will compare, not
only most favorably, but is a first-class road, as compared
with tho roads to which I have referred. In fact,
all these contracts contemplated the construction of
a first class railway. On the first section, I was
saying $553,550 were saved on the amount stipulated in the contract. On section 62, the contract price
was $2,056,950. We expect to complete it for $1,368,670,
or $688,280 less than tho price contained in the contract
when granted. For section 61 the contract price is
$2,573,640, and we expect to complete it for $1,927,000, or '•'I
$646,640 less than the contract amount. On the sections
from Emory's Bar to Port Moody, of course the contract
being for a lump sum, we expect, with the
careful and accurate survey which was made and
the' thorough knowledge of the work obtained before
the contract was let, to complete it for the amount
stated in the contract—$2,486,000. On section 60^
the contract price was $2,727,200, and we expect to complete
it for $2,324,000—a saving of $403,200. So that I may
state, in round numbers, that on contracts 13, 25, 15 and 14
the cost will be $1,560,139 more than the contract price;
and on contracts 41, 42, 60, 6ly 62 and 63, the saving will be
$4,051,630, or that amount less than contemplated when the
contracts were made. I give this information to the House
because it is of very great interest, and I know how glad
the House will be to learn, that in these remote and diflicult
sections of country, we have been enabled to make so great
a reduction of cost, to save so very large an amount of money
to the country. I may say, that in regard to the work that
is being constructed by the Government, the greatest possible
care has been taken to secure a first class road. I may say,
in addition to that, that the policy which I propounded to
the House by changing entirely the character and class of
railway to be constructed, by building the cheapest possible
line through the prairie country, was abandoned by the
Company when they came in possession of the road ; and
I can challenge the closest scrutiny of the subject when I
say that not only are we carrying out the portion of the
road to be constructed by us, notwithstanding these great
savings in such a way as to secure the construction of a first-
class railway, but that it is not possible to construct a better
description of railway than is being constructed in the North-
West by the Company. The finest rails to be found on this
continent are those they aro now importing. They are tho
highest class of steel rails ; and my hon. friend and predecessor, will perhaps be surprised to learn that they use a
better fish-plate than that on the Intercolonial Rariway, or
the Canadian Pacific Railway as carried on by my hon*
friend and after him by me until this change took • place.
The adoption of a fish-plate in the form of a knee—giving
much greater strength than the excellent pattern we used,
shows they are determined to economize in the
operation of the road by the construction of the
very best description of possible. Instead of
laying out a road upon the prairie with merely a
sufficient amount of ballast to enable it to be operated—as I
eomemplated at the time I found so much difficulty, owing
to the want of support of hon. gentleman opposite, in carrying ©n the Canadian Pacific  Railway as a Government it;
undertaking—a raised road, so far as snow, water and all
those difficulties are concerned, is being constructed not
enly on tho trunk, but on all branch lines. Tho result of
this to the country will be most important; because wo
shall have in this country, extending from sea to sea, a class
of railway of tho very highest character, over which the
greatest amount of speed can be obtained, and tho
largest volume of traffic carried at the cheapest possible
rate. In the construction of a national line of railway,
the House will see of what vital importance it is to Canada,
in view of the competition with those great national projects
to the south of us, the Northern Pacific, the Union and Central Pacific Railways, that to secure the traffic through
Canadian channels, the Company should have adopted a
much higher class of railway than they were compelled,
under their contract, to construct. I mention that
becdjise the late Minister of the Interior labored
under the somewhat strange delusion as to the want
pficare in the construction of the line shown by the Canadian
Pacific Railway. Some person had pointed out to him that
they were laying rs|ls on the ice. I believe something of
that kind did take place. I am afraid it took place in consequence of a portion of the road constructed by the Government between Winnipeg and Stonewall, being overflowed
by water, and instead of taking up the track it was more
convenient to lay it over the ice, ftnd I daro
say some sidings in connection with tMl traffic
required to be for the time to be laid on tho ice. I
can only say that having travelled over 130 miles
of the road, from Winnipeg to Brandon, in company
with Mr. Schreiber, the Government Engineer, and after
a most careful examination of the mode in which
the Company constructed tho road, I was delighted with
it. They were making every mile of the road,
whether main lines or branches, the finest description
of road. Of course, it involved in constructing a
road on tho prairie no such expense to mako a first
class road as in the rougher portions of the country
I may now, by referring to the line through its entire
extent for a single moment, draw the attention of the hoe.
gentleman to the position we will occupy when tho railway is completed.
Mr. MACKENZIE. Before the hon. gentleman proceeds,
I would like him to state one thing he has omitted, namely,
the amount expended by the Government on the first 100
miles west, and the condition of that flat country.
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. I may say that I have not
mentioned that to the House, because I have already laid on 17
the Table of the House a full statement of all expenditure
made by the Government, about $700,000, and the statement of the payment of that claim by the Company to the
-Government. It would have been embraced here but fbr
the fact that it had been dealt with in a specific return,
and I will be very glad to supplement that return if the
hon. gentleman finds any point in it in which there i* act
the fullest information,
H Mr. MACKENZIE.   I have not seen it. |     1     ^pf§
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. I may say that I am not
particularly proud of that portion of the work which was
carried on under my charge, and throw the blame a good
deal on hon. gentleman opposite	
Mr. MACKENZIE.   Of course.  B'    BBB
|ir CHARLES TUPPER. Who were very stringent in
the means that were placed at my service for the construction of any portion of the Canadian Pacific Railway, and I
was compelled, under the difficulties of the position, to tall
back upon adopting through the prairie, another elass
of road; and I am afraid that the contrast between the
operations of the Company and my own, in regard, to the
construction of the railway through the prairie section, is
one certainly that I do not consider particularly flattering
to myself, so that the hon. gentleman will excuse me if I do
not dilate quite as fully upon that branch of the
subject a3 I might otherwise have been tempted to do.
Now, I may say that, assuming that seventy-nine miles
is to be saved—and Major Rogers seems to be very sanguine
that he will obtain a saving of seventy-nine miles-—if it be
not saved of course these figures will have to be changed—
but I assume that it will be saved, and we shall then stand
in this position: That from Montreal to Port Moody by the
Canadian Pacific Railway the distance will be 2,850 mile&
from New York to Port Moody, via the Canadian Pacific
Railway and Montreal, the distance will be only 3,260
miles; from New York to Port Moody, by the Canadian
Pacific Railway and Brockville, the shortest means by which
they can reach the point, the distance will be 3,140 miles.
Now, Sir, from New York to San Francisco which is some
500 or 600 miles further to the south than Victoria, via the
Central and Union Pacific Railways, and the shortest connecting lines in the United States, the distance will be 3,330
miles, whereas from Montreal to Port Moody it is only
2,850, and from New York to Port Moody by our road
is a shorter distance than it is from New York
to San Francisco, showing that for all througk
traffic we ought to be able, with our shorter distances,
with our better line, with our better grades and curves, and 18
with the advantage of having a road not burdened with
the enormous bonded debt that the Central and Union
Pacific roads are charged with, wo ought to bo able to compete over the Canadian Pacific Railway, with fast steamei s
connecting San Francisco and Victoria, for a considerable
portion of the trade, even between San Francisco and certain
portions of the western States.   That may bethought to
be a very extravagant idea,  but I believe that with the
advantages we enjoy and with the  character of tho road
being constructed, we may not only hope to hold all the
traffic of our own country over our own lines, but we may
be able to enter upon a sharp and successful competition
with either the Northern Pacific Railway or the Central and
Union Pacific Railways for the traffic between different
sections of  the   great Republic  itself.    From  Liverpool
to     Montreal    the    distance     is     2,715     miles,    from
Liverpool    to    New   York,   3,040   miles,    from    Liverpool   to Port   Moody   via   Montreal   and the   Canadian
Pacific   Railway,   the   distance   is   6,063   miles; 1 from
Liverpool to San Francisco via the shortest route that
can be obtained in the United States, the  distance is 6,830
miles; from Liverpool to Yokohama in Japan, via Montreal
on the Canadian Pacific Railway, 10,963 miles; from Liverpool to Yokohama via New York and San Francisco, 12,038
miles; so that we shall have over the  Canadian  Pacific
Railway the distance from Liverpool to Port Moody via
Montreal 767 miles shor||r than via New York and San
Francisco, showing  that so far as through traffic is  concerned, it will be utterly impossible for any route on this
continent to begin to compete with the Canadian Pacific
Railway.   Then, Sir, from Liverpool to Yokohama, via the
Canadian Pacific Railway, the distance is no lessithan 1,070
miles shorter than via New York and San Francisco, showing that not only in reaching the Pacific  Coast,  but  in
reaching Asia, and for through traffic, we shall necessarily
make our road the highway between Europe and the East.
Then, Sir, looking at it in another bearing which comes a
little closer homo, the figures will be regarded with verv
great favor by the Hliuse.   From Liverpool to Halifax the
distance is 2,410 miles, from Halifax to Quebec 680 miles,
from Quebec to Montreal 176 miles, from Montreal to Port
Moody 2,850 miles, or 3,706 miles from sea to sea.    From
Halifax to Port Moody the distance is 3.706  miles, from
Liverpool via Halifax to Port Moody 6,186  miles.   From
Liverpool to New York the distance is 3,040 miles, from
New York to San Francisco 3,790 miles, making 6,830
Mr. MACKENZIE.    In the distance from Montreal to 19
Liverpool does the hon. gentleman calculate by the Straits
of Belle Isle or by Cape Race ?
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. I think I am taking it by the
shortest line I can get; but I think that in taking the distance from Liverpool to Halifax it is not usual to go by the
Straits of Belle Isle.
Mr. MACKENZIE. No; but the previous figures referred
to the distance from Montreal by sea, 6,063 miles.
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. From Liverpool to Montreal,
2,093 miles, I presume would pass by the Straits of Belle Isle.
From Liverpool to New York and San Francisco, the distance is 6,830 miles, or 644 miles from Liverpool to San
Francisco via New York more than it is from Liverpool to
Port Moody vid Halifax, giving another evidence why, in
our groat national line of railway which we have now
provided from sea to sea, we shall not only have a great
through line of a most inviting character from one ocean to
the other in our country, but we will have a line from
Liverpool to Port Moody on the Pacific 644 miles nearer
than by the shortest lines that can be obtained by going to
New York and thence to San Francisco. Now, Sir, I
am quite certain that this statement is one that will
be regarded with great satisfaction by the House;
and that the Government who assumed the great
responsibility a year ago of submitting this contract with
the Canadian Pacific Railway for the consideration of
Parliament, have great reason to be satisfied, that, after a
year's experience, the only change they are obliged to ask
Parliament for, is one to authorize a change in the location
from Yellow Head Pass to one that will shorten the Canadian
Pacific Railway by seventy-nine miles, if it should be found
to be practicable.
Mr. MACKENZIE. Will the hon. gentleman supplement
his remarks as to distances to this extent—if he is so prepared. Assuming that Kicking Horse Pass is not found practicable, he proposes, as I understand it, that the main line shall
be diverted north to the Yellow Head Pass from the upper
end of the Qu'Appelle Yalley, can he give the disfa^ee in
that case to the Yellow Head Pass.
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. I may say, Mr. Speaker, I am
glad that the hon. gentleman has asked mo that question,
because it is a very important one; and one to which I have
directed my attention. From Moose Jaw Creek, the westernmost point to which we have authorized the location of the
Ganadiaa Pacific Railway vid the Yellow Head Pass,will not
as I believe, increase the length of the Canadian Pacific Railway over what was contemplated, when we had this subject 20
before the House a year ago; and when we anticipated the
adoption of a more northerly course from Winnipeg than
has since been taken. The country through which tho
road passes is better than would have been traversed by
the other route. The grades and curves—but I need net
speak of the curves, as they do not affect the question—the
grades are less severe than those we would have been
compelled to adopt on the line contemplated a year
ago, and the change will not materially lengthen the
line, if at all, if we have to fall back on the Yellow Head
Pass, while seventy-nine miles will be saved by obtaining
access through the Kicking Horse. Pass. Now, Sir, I may
say it is a source of no little satisfaction to me to be able to
make so gratifying a statement as 1 have presented
to tho House with relation to this matter. After
we have had the opportunity of looking at this
question—not in the light of an abstract question, in
which we were to some extent compelled to view it a year
ago, but in the light of a year's experience—I have shown
the House the enormously rapid advance which has been
made in the construction of this great national work, for it
is a great national work, whether it be in the hands of the
Government of the day or in the hands of a Company subsidized—largely subsidized, hon. gentlemen opposite will
say—by the Government of the day, or by Parliament:
And I say it is extremely gratifying to find that the most
sanguine predictions which any hon. gentlemen on this side
of the House made, as to the progress of this great work,
have been more than realized by the vigor which has been
exerted on it by the gentlemen who are engaged in it. And
perhaps, Sir, after this y|&r's experience,  which we are
able  to
back  upon,   it    may  not   be   unadvisable
before I sit down for me to notice how far the fears,
that were entertained by hon. gentlemen opposite a
year ago, have boen proved to be well founded, or
unfounded, when submitted to this crucial test. Sir,
I now think wo have the data for expressing an opinion,
and a very sound opinion, on a great many points,
which troubled hon. gentlemen opposite when Parliament
was called upon to rifpfy this contract. Luring last
Session, I have taken up, Sir, a volume—I was going to say,
of forgotten lore. 1 have taken up, Sir, the expansion on the Journals of the views of hon. gentlemen
opposite during last Session, but it has ceased to
be regarded—in the excitement that the country has
felt, and in the interest that all the country has
manifested, in the wonderful progress of this work, and in the
remarkable development of the country under the operation
of this   progress—with   any attention;   and that   what 21
seemed so fresh and fall of life and vitality a year ago has
actually become forgotton lore. Why, Sir, I forget whether
twenty or thirty amendments were drafted by the hon.
gentleman (Mr. Blake). He will not say to me that he did
not draft all these amendments. The hon. gentleman will
not say that in the discharge of his duty as the leader of the
Opposition he did not do so. I think that some hon. gentleman referred to an hon. gentleman as having been put
up on this side of the House, because an important question
was moved by him; but, Sir, I will ask the hon. gentleman
if he did not put up twenty members on that side of the House
list Session to move resolutions which were all drafted by
himself, for the purpose of attracting the attention of the
House, and, as was assumed, of reaching the attention of
the country; but what is the fact to-day, Sir. From that
day to this so occupied and interested has the
country become in the rapid progress of this
work, and in a rapid expansion of the country under
its influence and development, that these resolutions have
been utterly forgotten and if any gentlemen was asked on
the other side of the House to recite one of them, I am
quite certain it* would puzzle him as much as it would
puzzle some persons to recite the Lord's Prayer, and if some
one of these hon. gentlemen was called upon for instance,—I
would not be a bit surprised if I called upon the member
for North Elgin to do so, if he commenced the recital by
saying " Now I lay me down to sleep." Certainly these
resolutions have all been laid down to sleep; and after
having slept, they are now in a perfectly lethargic position,
-—consequently if I now stir them up a little, I am sure
that the hon. gentlemen who spent s
ingenuity, will not blame me if ]
and I may say that the manner i
these resolutions were drafted, reflects a great deal
of credit on the hon. gentleman's head, whatever
may be said of his heart. Well, Sir, what is the first resolution with which I think the hon. member for Westmoreland
was entrusted. It was that the said resolution bo not now
read a second time, but that it be resolved, that in the
opinion of this House tenders should be invited for the
construction and operation of the Canadain Pacific Railway
before Parliament is asked to ratify any contract
for the same. Well, Sir, if ever a resolution
which an hon, gentleman proposed in the presence of this
House, exposed him to the imputation of being a Rip Yan
Winkle, and a man who had slept for years and did not
know what was going on, certainly it was the character
of this resolution. Vid not the hon. gentleman know that
tenders had been  asked for, and that the Government of
much time   and
refer  to  them;
which some of 99
which he was a member sent tenders all over England and
the United States and Canada, for months, inviting competition for this work? Lid he not know that tnese
tenders declared that the Government, of which he was a
member, was prepared to give 54,000,000 acres of land and
$27,000,000, and 2U per cent, on an unknown sum, which
tenderers were invited to state.
Sir A
J. SMITH.    The time for receiving them
had expired.
Sir CHARLES TUPPER, Oh! the hon. gentleman
says, the time for receiving tenders had expired. But why
had it had expired. Why, Sir, it expired only because
there was no person to be found in Canada, or out of it, who
would look at their proposition to construct the Canadian
Pacific Railway for 54,000,000 acres of land and $27,000,000,
and an unknown sum, which tenderers were asked to fix
for themselves over and above the maximum price.
This was the offer »of the hon. gentleman and of
the (ijovernment of which ho was a member.
Tho hon. gentleman knows that the Canadian Pacific
Railway was as dead as Julius Caasar at that time. The
hon. gentleman knows that the people had ceased to talk
about the Canadian Pacific Railwav as a thing in which to
invest any money, and for very good reasons, as I shall
presently show. The hon. gentleman is aware that after
giving it the widest publicity, wo were able to make a contract for $78,000,000—valuing the land at $1 per acre—
while they had offered $81,000,000, calling the land
$1 per acre, and they could not get a bid from any
part of the world where they had sent their
applications. Under these circumstances, I think
it was hardly in place for the hon. gentleman to take the
exception that tenders were not invited, for the hon. gentle-'
man himself had been inviting tenders for months with tho
effect which I have named. The hon. member for Iberville
(Mr. Beehard) also wished to explain his views, the views
of the hon. gentleman who drafted the resolution and placed
it in his hands—I mean the leader of the Opposition. I do
not mean to say that the hon. gentleman was not quite in
his right, or was not discharging his duty, in drafting the
resolution, or that it was the slightest reflection upon the
members of that side of the House#o accept the resolution
or the services of their leader in preparing it. There
was nothing extraordinary in that, but it reminded
me of a siory I once heard of a Presbyterian Church
in which one or two influential parties were
becoming rather restive. They talked about going over to
the secession or leaving the church with which they were
tA*m 23
connected. A consultation was held with tho venerable
pastor of the church, and the question wag taken up as to
how to secure these people who were becoming dissatisfied ?
His solution of the difficulty was expressed in these words:
" Make deacons of them." 'So, Sir, when we found the hon:
gentleman putting separate resolutions on this question into
the hands of various members of the patriotic band who sit
behind him, I concluded that he was making deacons of
some of these gentlemen, feeling it necessary to put them
on record as being bound by the resolution for fear they
should become restive. In the resolution moved by the
hon. member for Iberville (Mr. Beehard), I find it stated:—
lt That the arrangements for the construction of the Canadian Pacific
Railway should be such as the resources of the country would permit,
without increasing the former rates of taxation, and that the work, if to
be constructed by a Company, should be let only after tenders had been
obtained therefor, and should be subjected to purchase by the Government at 10 per cent, over cost."
Now, Sir, I have a curious commentary to make on that
resolution. There is a resolution drafted by the right hand
'Of the leader of tho Opposition, to which the leader of tho
Opposition pledged himself by voting for it—as is shown
by his name standing recorded for it on the journals
of Parliament—that he believed it to be true. If the
hon. gentleman believed that the policy of all
parties had been, as stated, in the resolution, then the
hon. gentleman's memory was sadly at fault. I do mot
now know whether he was a member of the Government at
the time the Order in Council was drawn up which was
approved by His Excellency on the 8th of July, 1874, but
i f he was not, he had ceased to be a member but for a very
short time, and at all events he was a member when the
Tariff was passed to which the
Mr. BLAKE.   No, I was not 1
gentleman will have to get the hon. member for Iberville
{Mr. Beehard) and every man who voted for that resolution
to withdraw it, or else he will be in the position of charging
his colleagues whom he had but lately left, of going in the
face of their own document, the Order in Council of the 8th
of July, 1874. I will read what was stated there, and you
will remember that they were drawing up an Order in
Council which was to be sent to the Imperial Government,
that they wero solemnly declaring the policy of their Government.   And here are the remarkable words they use:
"In order to enable the Government to carry out the proposals wkich
it was hoped the British Columbia Government would have accepted, the
average rate of taxation was raised at the laie Session aboat 15 per o«nt.
Order in Council  makes
either date.
I am afraid the hon.
OUll 24
The CustoKis duties being raised from 15 per cent, to 17£ per cent., an(fc
the Excise duties on spirits and tobaccos a corresponding rate, both
involved an additional taxation exceeding $3,000,000 on the taxation of
th« year."
Yet, Sir, the hon. gentleman and his colleagues having put
their names to this solemn declaration that the Government
of the day, that the Government of which he had so lately
ceased to be a member, while be was a member of it, had
come to Parliament.
Mr. BLAKE.   No, no. |1 flflB
Sir CHARLES TUPPER.    Was not this increase passed
by the hon. gentleman while he was in the Government ?
Mr. BLAKE.   No. §B fl
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. Well, He must have favored
them with the light of his countenance, but for a very short
time, for this increase referred to was in the first Budget
Speech brought down by the Government. It would be
like fixing an ignus fatuus to Hx. the hon. gentleman's movements in the Government and out of it; but I must be
excused for supposing that he had not abandoned them*
quite so soon after having lent them the weight of his name
to get into office. But it matters not whether he was a
member of the Government or not. There is the solemn
declaration to this House and to this country, as well as to
the Mother pountry and to the Imperial Parliament, that
instead of their holding to the policy that the rate of taxation should not bo increased, they had declared that they
themselves had increased it to a rate which gave them over
$3,000,000 in a year for the express purpose of constructing
the Canadian Pacific Railway. I think if the hon. member
for Iberville (Mr. Beehard), who is usually so frank and
candid in his statements, if his attention had been called to
this Order in Council—would have hesitated a good deal
before saying that the policy of all parties was that there
should be no increase in the rate of taxation. Now I may
pass on	
Mr. RYMAL. No ; take them all. f^^^S^^S^
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. I think I can find enough in
them to afford plenty of amusement to the hon. member for
Wentworth (Mr. Rymal), and I can see he is very much
amused already, by the broad smile which illuminates his
countenance at this moment. The hon. member for Iberville closed his resolution with a remarkable declaration, to
which I now invite his attention:
hat contract respecting the Canadian Pacific Railway, laid
tie, involves violation in the above and other particulars  of
" That tbi
on the Tabl
the settled policy in reference to the Canadian Pacific Railway, and
should not be ratified till after the people have had the opportunitv of
expressing their opinion through the medium of a General Election." 25
Well, Sir, a year has gone over since ail these doleful
predictions as to the effect the construction of the Canadian
Pacific Railway would have upon the country, and the
people are a great deal better qualified to pass upon that
great question, that greatest of all questions which have-
been su bmitted for the consideration of this Parliament, the
National Policy excepted, than they were a year ago. They
have not only the statements, the opinions, the views of hon,
gentlemen on both sides of this House, but they have the
best light with which to examine the question, and that is-
the light of practical experience. And yet Sir, these hon.
gentlemen, who felt very anxious a year ago to go to the
country, now that the country has seen what has been
accomplished in a year under the operation of this contract,
do not. seem so anxious to talk about a General Election—do
not seem to relish a General Election with quite so much
fervor as they did a year ago.
Sir ALBERT J. SMITH.   How are they on your side ?
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. I thank the hon. gentlemen ;
there is not a man on this side of the House who does not
know that we are entitled to receive, and believes that we
shall receive, the approval of an overwhelming majority of
the people of this country from end to end. That is what
they feel, and the hon. gentlemen knows it right well. Well,,
Sir, as I said, the great organ of their party, after howling at
us because we would not give the people an opportunity of
expressing their opinion at the polls, after the people have-
had a year's experience by which to judge of this work,
now says that we are attempting to put a great surprise on
the people, that the taking of the opinion of the people is the
very last thing that a respectable Government would think
of doing. I give that to the hon. gentlemen as a corollary
to what hon. gentlemen said a year ago ; and I say that I
for one would be only too proud of having the opportunity
to show to this country how this Government dealt with
this great question. Now, I come to the next motion, from
which I excuse the leader of the Opposition, because it is a
financial one, and I suppose I must give to the late Finance
Minister the credit of having drafted this resolution for
himself. In fact, there is a recklessness about it that
indicates that its paternity was not far from the mover.
I will read it to the House:
*' That the contract respecting the Canadian Pacific Railway involves
a total expenditure by ibe countiy in connexion with that work about
$60,000,00 J, exclusive of interest, and the cession of 25,000,000 of acres-
of choice lands, worth at the estimate of the Government last year at
least $-79,000,000, making a total consideration of about $140,000,000*
while the railroad itself is estimated by the Government to cost not more
than &84,00e,OJ0, and that the consideration proposed to be given is*
excessive." 26
Well, Sir, suppose it did cost a good deal., suppose there was
any foundation for the statement that it would cost
$140,000,000 to the country to secure the construction of
the Canadian Pacific Railway, whom have we to thank for
it? Who are the men responsible for having spent five
years in exaggerating the cost of tho Canadian Pacific
Railway, and in questioning its usefulness after it was
-constructed ? Hoes the hon. gentleman forget that
in the first Budget Speech he made, he himself said that
to construct it in ten years—though this Company
is going to construct it in less—would cost from $150,000,000
to $100,000,000 in cash? Hoes the hon. gentleman
forget that if any man in Canada, or out of it, is
responsible above all others for the difficulty of securing
-the construction by his own of the Canadian Pacific
Railway, it was the wild, hap-hazard, reckless assertions which the hon. gentleman himself made when he was
occupying the position of Finance Minister of this country;
Why, Sir, no man can read the speech the hon. gentleman
made without coming to the conclusion that, to construct
the Canadian Pacific Railway, would be to irretrievably ruin
the financial credit of the country and destroy the prosperity
-of the Dominion of Canada for many long years to come.
And when the hon. gentleman came to consider the question
of operat|pig the road after it was constructed, his utterances
were still more appalling, because, although he considered
thafjtho country would be involved in financial ruin by the
amount of money that would be requied to'secure its construction, that was trifling compared with the frightful
bugbeair wh|ph the hon. gentleman conjured up as to the enormous burden of taxation under which the people of this
country must groan to the end of time for "Sie purpose of
operating the road. Why, Sir, what did he do ? That elhtraet
proposed to pa|r $'J8,000,000 for the construction of those
portions which the Government were engaged in constructing, and which were to be handed over to the Company ;
it also provided that we should pay $25,000,000 more, in
all $53,000,000, and 25,000,000 acres of land to secure the
construction of this worlsL which the hon. Minister of
Public Works, then at the head of the Government, and the
hon. leader of the Opposition themserf|s concurred in,
-declaring at the lowest estimate must cost $121,000,000 in
cash. Well, Sir, let the hon. gentleman consider the proposal that he himself was party to, and that was to
give 54,000,000 acres of land. Let him multiply the
J|jl,000,000 acres of land, which is the excess proposed to
be granted by them over what we propose to grant,
by   the  price   he   estimates,   and    he    will   find   that
country in   the
tho  price   he   estimates,   and    he
$87,000,000   would   be   saved    to    the 27
/ /
land grant alone under this contract. And when it is
remembered that in addition to that, he was prepared to give
$27,000,000 of money, it only excites surprise that any hon.
gentleman, standing in the position in which he stood, and
knowing as he did the gigantic character of this work, the
difficulties in the way of its construction and operation,
should have ventured to put on tho journals of Parliament
such a resolution as this. How can the hon. gentleman be
surprised that all the series of resolutions and amendments
which hon. gentlemen expanded on the journals, have
becomef orgotten lore ? Why, Sir, I ventured to say a year
ago, when we were discussing this question here, that when
the time came to go to the people in a General
Election, hon, gentlemen opposite would be only too glad to
forget that they had ever attacked that contract.
And, Sir, I believe now that the last thing any hon. gentleman on the other side of the House, on going to his constituent throughout the wide realm of the Dominion, would
think of would be to read one of these resolutions that they
considered so important when they moved them a year ago.
Why? Because the light of one year's experience has
revealed so much information with regard to this question as
to warrant me in saying that if they are not ashamed, they
ought to be, at the unsound principles to which they formerly
committed themselves. I do not, of course, mean ashamed
in any other than a political sense. I now come to the
resolution moved by the hon. member for Sun bury, setting
forth that at present the construction of the Canadian
Pacific Railway is premature.
An hon. MEMBER.   No.    ^^^^^MraB^S
Sir CHARLES TUPPER.   The resolution reads thus :—
"That the resolution be not now read a second time, but that it be
resolved, that at present the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway in British Columbia is premature, and which involves the country
in an expense beyond its reasonable capacity, and would lead to the
maintenance of too high a rate of taxation, while the postponement of
that part of the undertaking till after the prairie section is finished,
would enable it to be constructed at a much less cost and within a reasonable time."
What does the hon, gentleman say in the light of a year's
experience of his epithet premature ? What does he say
when he finds not only what has been accomplished under the
contract, but that Canada is moving ahead with such giant
strides towards national life, as we have witnessed within
the last twelve months ? The hon. gentleman would require
to be blind and deaf to shut out from his intelligence
the knowledge and information now attainable, and the
fact that everywhere, right and left all over this country,
the influence of the Government, having grappled with this 28
great work and determined to open up that magnificent
country to the industrious thousands and tens of thousands
outside, has, with the rapidity that nothing else could
achieve, given to the position and character of Canada in
reference to this great national work an impetus
that could not have been anticipated one year ago.
Look at the fact of 21,000 immigrants going into Manitoba
since the 1st of January last, and tell us what that means ?
An hon. MEMBER,   Where from? W^^fft^B^B
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. I have already told the hon.
gentleman that it matters little where they come from if
they go into that country and develop it, and furnish the
means of inviting industrious immigrants from other lands,
by showing that in that country they can use their labor
and capital in a manner more beneficiall to themselves
and families than in any other part of the world. The very
fact that in Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Quebec, and
Ontario, at this moment all alive with industries, rapidly
advancing in every possible way—where a condition of
prosperity exists, affording bread to every man in the
l&ntry—at a ||mo when all the Provinces, Prince
Edward Island included—I say the very fact that we havo
opened up a region of such unbounded extent and resources
as to tempt people to leave their happy, prosperous homes
in these older'sections of the country—affords abundant
evidence that the Interests of Canada were never more
thoroughly considered than when measures were
taken to open up our magnificent North-West to
the industry and energies of all outsiders. Well,
what does this moan, so far as our natural wealth is
concerned ? If the hon. gentleman will turn to
the report of the hon. the Minister of Agriculture, that the
28,000 immigrants brought between $'^,000,000 and
$4,0u0,000 of hard cash into the North-West during the
past year, and adding the value of their effects, we have a
total of over $4,000,000—an important addition to the
wealth and capital of the country. With such facts, can
any one venture to say that-grappling with this great work,
as a whole, and dealing with it so as to show the world
that we intend to have a great trans-continental line,
stretching from sea to sea, from Halifax on the Atlantic
to Port Moody on the Pacific, that that policy is not calculated to attract attention to the country and to stimulate
its progress, and to benefit the country as tho expenditure
of the saniB amount of capital in no other direction
could do ? Suppose the hon. gentleman had been told that
no sooner would this contract be entered upon, no sooner
would the attention of settlers be drawn to the greatness m
and fertility of this great North-West, that in a short
year applications would be made by colonization companies
for no less than 23,000,090 acres of land, what would he
have said ? He then thought it premature, or beyond the
resources of the country, to enter upon this work, but he
was not so considerate when asked to vote $3,000,000 of
additional taxes in 1874, by hon, gentlemen opposite, for the
construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway. In 1881,
however, he was unwilling that 25,000,000 acres should be
given to the Canadian Pacific Railway for grappling with this
great undertaking. If the hon.>gentleman had been told that
those 25,000,000 acres were wanted by colonization
companies within one year, would he have said it was premature to undertake this great work ? I have mentioned
the $4,000,000 in cash and settlers' effects brought into the
country by those 28,000 immigrants. What does this mean.
as a source of revenue to the country, when we remember
how valuable every inhabitant added to the country is as a
source of revenue ? I believe the returns of the Customs'
revenue, at Winnipeg, between the 1st of July, 1880, and the
1st of March, 1881 inclusive, show a total of $196,453.58.
Mr. MACKENZIE.   This is for 1880 and 1881. IjR^M
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. Yes; and this was obtained
under the policy of the present Government. In relation to
Winnipeg, hon. gentlemen opposite know that when we
came into power Winnipeg was dead—that the policy of the
late Government struck a fatal blow at Winnipeg. It had
decided to carry the Canadian Pacific Railway from Selkirk, away twenty miles from Winnipeg, across through
the narrows of Lake Manitoba, and with what result?
From that hour until we came into power and changed
that policy, Winnipeg was dead. Hon. gentlemen know
that there was no enterprise—that everything was in a state
of despondency ; any person could then have gone into that
town and purchased for $1,000 property which he could not
get to-day lor $100,000. That was the condition of things.
The hon. member for Westmoreland thinks that an extravagant statement; but I tell him that it has been proved over
and over again that a property which would not have realized $1,000 before that policy was adopted, ha3 within
a year after its adoption realized $100,000, and instead of
using terms which are extravagant, lam greatly within the
mark when I make that statement. If the hon. gentleman
had been told that this policy would have had the
effect of giving $582,743 into the Customs Department alone, for the same period to 1st March, 1882, he
would have hesitated a great while before using that word
u premature,"  before he would ask this House to declare 30
obliged     to
that the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway was
premature. Suppose the hon. gentleman had known, that
the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway was going
to lead to a degree of attention on the part of Great Britain
and the United States with reference to Canada, that is of
incalculable money value to this country, he would have
hesitated before taking that position. Why, what was the
value of the North-West to Canada, or the Crown, or
anybody a few years ago ? The most marvellous
thing in history is the fact that tho Hudson's Bay
Company, employing as they were
employ, hundreds of intelligent, enterprising
were able to hide half this continent from the knowledge of
the world for half a century. Ail that is changed now.
What was the value, of the North-West, when in Great
Britain it was regarded as a frozen wilderness, destitute of
vitality or the means of sustaininlj a population. It was
as rich and as valuable then, in natural resources, as it is
to-day, but it had no appreciable value except as a hunting
ground and a country for the raising of far. But all that
is changeji, and I ask hon. gentleman to look at its condition
O > O SggM
under the influences that have been brought to bear on its
development, under the attention that has been directed to
it by this great national work. I say that instead of its being
premature, the wisest and most juficious step ever taken
by a Government in this country was that taken by this
Government when they not only gr|jppled with
the work of building the Canadian PajJSfie Railway,
but succeeded in placing it in the hands of
a Company possessed of unbounded resources and of great
enterprise and ability. The hon. gentleman knows the
tone in which Canada used to be spoken of a few years ago
in the press of England. He knows how successful 3|he ex-
Finance Minister was in impregnating the Engliiji. mind
with his peculiar ideas with reference to the Can^lian
Pacific Railway, as to its hopeless character. But all thfil
is changed. Let mo read from an article in the London
Morning Post—one of the great organs of pAlic opinion in
England—published the other day. I will not read the
whole article, but only some of the references in it to the
visit of His Excellency the Governor General had
made through the North-West, and I will say here that I
believe that as Lord Dufrerin's visit was attended w4th
advantage to this country, it is impossible to overrate the
value to Canada of the wide notoriety that the resources and
fertility of the North-West have obtained through the able
zealous advocacy of the present Governor General. In
reviewing sem« ef his speeches, the Post says : 31
"First, from a simple point of view, it is of great importance that the
political future of British North America shall be assured, and there is
no more certain method of affecting this than by settling the immense
trajJt of country between Fort Garry and the Rocky Mountains, and
building a trans-continental highway through British soil. The next
phase of the matter presented to us is the Great North-West, which
appears as an inexhaustible wheat granary for ou? own countless consumers on this side of the Atlantic. The last, but not the least, ground
for congratulation, if all that is said of it be true, is the conviction that
within little more than a fortnight of London there is an unlimited field
for the profitable employment of British capital and of British thews and
sinews. The Monroe doctrine fades into mist before the fact that the
acreage of British America is greater than that of the United States.
Even the mist vanishes as the boundless undulating prairies
of the North West, embracing between two or three millions
of Equare miles, furnish employment to countless ploughs
and reaping machines, or become the home of vast herds of cattle,
claiming for their progenitors high-priced sires from Hereford or Kirk-
levington. There seems to be abundant testimony to the quality of the
cereals raised in Manitoba and the Valley of the Saskatchewan. Scotch
and English farmers have been there, and have returned much impressed
with what they saw. Thirty bushels an acre, with no need of manuring
for many years to come, seems to be a pretty general average. As
regards emigration, it cannot be doubted that if the right man goes
there he will make his way, whether as owner or workman, in a manner
at present denied to agriculturists in these islands, fie will be under
the British Sag, in a conntry where his own native tongue is spoken,
and whera his sons may come to be legislators for the benefit of a
generation which will eeo a mighty British American Empire established
between the old ilriritime Provinces and V&ticouTer Island, a chief
factor in the magnificent result being the Canadian Pacific Railway."
I ask the hon. gentleman to tell me the money value of such
an article as that. Look at these great steamers that are
now crossing the Atlantic to this country, crowded with
people, full of high hope and expectation, carrying their
industry into the North-West, where they will become
energetic sons of the soil of Canada. It is statements such
as these which have entirely changed the current of public
sentiment on the other side of the Atlantic with reference to
tc this country. Then, what do we find across the border?
Let us go down among our neighbors in the United States. I
read an extract here from the late Governor Seymour's
speech bearing testimony to the inexhaustible fertility of
the North-West. Let me now give a short extract from a
speech delivered in the United States Senate on January
10th, 1882: I 1 I
" The report of Ihe Canadian Commissioner of Agriculture shows that
they have in the Canadian North-West over two hundred million acres ct
wheat-producing country ; the reports of the individual farmers show
that their yield of wheat varies from twenty-five to fifty bushels per acre,
weighing from sixty to sixty-six pounds to the bushel. Their great
Pacific Kailroad will be soon completed, and the trade of China, Japan,
Australia and the Indies will pass over it. It is nearly completed to
Lake Superior n©w ; thence the products of that country pass through
the  same chain of Lakes as ours has to traverse,  and  Fort William is
as near Buffalo as Chicago  is.
now enlarged Welland Canal
overcomes the obstruction of Niagara, and their line is shorter by rail
through Montreal to Liverpool by over six hundred miles than any route
we can take to get the wheat of Dakota through New York to England "
n 32
I ask the hon. gentleman whether a measure calculated to
attract such attention on the part of the United States and
of Europe to the Dominion, does not lead him to doubt the
soundness of his opinions when he undertook to say that it
was premature to engage in the construction, on the favorable terms we were able to obtain, of the Canadian Pacific
Railway. The Chicago Tribune, referring to the same subject on September 12, 1881, says:
w The wheat crops of Manitoba and the boundless empire which
stretches far away to the north-west of Winnipeg, must be the test
which intending immigrants will apply to the countiy. Reports for the
past four years from nearly 150 different localities, show the following
averages of wheat productions: 1877, 26f bushels; 1878, 26^; 1879, 26f ;
1880, 29|, and 1881, 30 bushels. The imagination stands appalled in its
endeavor to contemplate the inconceivable possibilities of this country.
• • + *»» •••
Reports from nearly 100 different localities for 1877, 1880 inclusive,
show that the average yield of potatoes has been 204, 398, 302 and 3L8
bushels per acre, respectively; peas, 32, 34, 32^ and 38^ bushels per
acre. But this is accounted for by the fact that the soil is so rich that
vines grow too rank. Barley for the same years, 40|, 36, 67$ and 41
bushels per acre ; oats, 59f, 68 and 67| bushels per acre."
I give this to the House as the evidence of what in one
short year has been accomplished in relation to the attention
attracted to bur country abroad, and the result of it he finds
in the tens of thousands of immigrants—I suppose little shorfc
at this moment of o0,000—since the 1st of January that are
pushing across the border to enjoy the blessings and advantages, and engage in the development of our country that has
been opened to their view. I give this to the hon. gentleman as
the evidence of the un-wisdom ef the declaration that the time
was premature when we could depend upon the contributions
to the revenue of this country that must come from its rapid
development and from the industry and capital that are
being poured into that Great North-West. Turn to any
evidence you please, take any means of forming a judgment
you please, and you find that not only at this moment is
there no place on tllis continent that can compare for a
single moment with the rapidity of the progress in our
Great North-West, but that the great western States that
have had such great advantages in the body of emigrants
that have been drawn into their country, have failed in
their efforts to accomplish such results as I have shown
the hon. gentleman is exhibited in relation to our own
It being Six o'clock the Speaker left the Chair.
^^^^B^HHl  After Recess.   MHHHiHh
Sir CHARLES TUPPER.   When the House roso I was
endeavoring to convince my hon. friend from  Sun bury that we were not premature in taking up and grappling
with tho question of the immediate construction of the
whole Canadian Pacific Railway, and I endeavored to
'disabuse that hon. gentleman's mind of the fears he entertained when moving that resolution, by referring to the
very great progress and growth of the country that had
taken place in the meantime. I drew his attention to the
fact that the application for land at the present moment, by
the colonization companies alone, has reached the amount
of 23,855,680 acres, and by the end of this week we will undoubted \y have applications fora sufficient quantity of land
which, it entertained,would recoup to the Treasury the entire
amount that we are called upon to pay the Canadian Pacific
Railway Company in money. I may say that these land and
colonization companies, these parties who are made use of by
the Government to bring immigration into the country have
.their lands on the terms that they pay $2 per acre for the
odd-numbered sections, under No. 1 of the Dominion Land
Regulations of the 23rd of December. The even-numbered
sections throughout the district applied for by these
-colonization land companies are obtained for free settlement and homesteads, and the companies are obliged, under
their engagement, to put two settlers instead of one upon
-every section so obtained, and when two settlers are placed
upon each section within lire years to the extent that the
land that has been sold to them at $2 an acre, they receive
a rebate of $ 1 per acre, and they receive a rebate of $ 160
for every settler placed upon the homestead and the preemption section. The terms are one-fifth cash, and one-
fifth annually for four years, so that the hon. gentleman will
see that in a comparatively short period, we have received
applications enough from colonization companies alone,
which, if entertained, would refund all the money to the
Treasury that we are called upon to pay, thus removing
altogether the doubt the hon. gentleman had that we were
engaging in something beyond our reasonable capacity, and
which would involve a high rate of taxation. Now, I may
say that down to the 31st October, 1871, 2,258,163 acres
have been allotted in free homesteads, and amplications have
been made for pre-emption for 1,270,751 acres. In addition
to that 1,400,000 acres have been allotted for half-breed
children; there are sales to the extent of 1,277,680 acres;
and there is a settlement belt of 320,000 acres, or 6,526,574
acres, and that is without reference to this 23,0u0,000 acres
already applied for by colonization companies. Now the
hon. gentleman will see that under the policy of the late
Government that land which is now. being applied for by
colonization companies, and upon which, in order to
at  the  rate   of $1 per acre they are obliged
get lands
AcWW   . 34
to put two settlers upon every section, would all have
gone to the railway companies without any payment
whatever, or any return whatever to the Treasury
So far as the lands are concerned; because tho
then Minister of the Interior proposed to give ten, twelve
or twenty sections according to the locality for every mile
of railway constructed as an inducement to parties to construct the railway. Now, Sir, I may say, while touching
upon that subject, that this is independent of the amount of
lands that are applied for by various railway companies,
and some of whom have received pledges from the Government to receive lands for the construction of railways by
private enterprise. The South-Western Railway has already
constructed fifty miles; the Westbourne and North-Western
Railway has constructed some thirty or forty miles, or has it
ready for the rails and part of the rails laid ; the South Saskatchewan Railway Company propose to construct a line in
another direction; the Souris and Rocky Mountains Company in another direction, and they have all received
pledges for lands to a greater or less extent, in most
instances 3,610 acres of land per mile ; and instead of
obtaining the land, as under the policy of tho late
Government, for nothing, they pay into the Treasury
of Canada $1 for every acre of tha|fe land along the
lines of railway they construct or which they receive
in connection with the construction of the railways.
Then, Sir, I may say that the Canadian Pacific Railway
Company have sold lands already to the extent of 433,760
acres, and have agreed to give to colonization companies
1,930,000 acres, or 2,363,760 acres, which are pledged and
disposed of practically up to the present time, or for which
engagements have been made. The Hudson's Bay Company have also sold farm lands to the extent of some
400,000 acres, so that my hon. friend will see the marvelous progress that has taken place, and the wonderful
development, which, unde|, these circumstances, is going on
in that country. I may mention, Sir, in connection with
the increased trade of the country, which bears immediately on tho prosperity and progress of the older Jfrovinces,
as well as of the North West, and its influence upon them,
that in the year 1878, the amount of goods taken in bond
from the older Provinces through into JS|janitoba, was
$1,374,311, while this amount, Sir, in 1881 rose to
$5,351,665 ; and I may say, Sii, that, to a very large extent, these are goods m?*ufactuied in Canada for the purpose of supplying the North West, thus affording a great
increase of business in tho older Provinces, and furnishing
various home industries with employment. I may say, Sir,
that in the short month of February last, tne city of Hamil-
* 35
ton sent S10^,?52 worth of goods into Manitoba; the city
of Toronto, 8301,213 worth ;   tho  city of London, $60,000
worth, all in bond, making, in that short month, no less than
$464,965 worth, or nearly $500,000 worth of goods which
went into that country; and for the six  months  ending
December 31, 1881, $4,875,991 worth of goods were sent
into  that country.    1   am    quite   sure,  that   this,   will
settle the question  in the mind of every hon, -member,
who is open to conviction, that we made no  mistake, were
not premature, and had not over-estimated the ability of the
conn try, and did not involve it in any unnecessary burthen,
when we took the step we did it for the development of
the North-West.    When we came into power at the close
of 1878, there was not a mile of railway  in  operation in
Canada   west of Lake Superior; and on the  1st day of
August next,  traffic   will   pass over   971  miles of railway   from   Lake Superior   and Thunder Bay to Winnipeg, and on the main line and branches of the Canadian
Pacific Railway, without reference to the fifty miles constructed by the South-Western and thirty or forty miles
built by the Westbourne and North-Western.   I am quite
sure, Sir, I need not detain the House further than to say
that with a surplus of $4,000,000 during   the past year ;
that with the power to remove the duties from tea and
coffee and reduce the duty on tobacco, with the abolition
of the Stamp duty and the giving of $150,000 to the fishermen,, and doing all this without, in the least degree, increasing, and instead of increasing greatly reducing the taxes of
the people, 1 think the hon. gentlemen will see we were quite
justified in adopting not abold policy, but the statesmanlike
and common-sense policy of grappling with these great questions, and putting the countiy in the position we have.    I
think, Sir, I need not detain the House longer in dealing
with the motion of my hon. friend from Sun bury, but I am
quite certain   that hon. gentleman, with the fair-minded
candour which I know forms a large part of his nature,
will come to the conclusion that he had been premature—
and not we—in moving such a resolution. I will now come to
tho next resolution, moved by my hon. friend from Quebec
East, and I think that this hon. gentleman would find, if he
were in the House—I am sorry to see he is not here—that
he had been a little premature in moving the resolution
which he undertook to propose.   He moved, Sir :
1 That the contract respecting the Canadian^ Pacific Railway, provides for the construction of between 600 and 700 miles of railway to tl e
north of Lake Superior between Lake Nipissing and the junction with
the road from Thunder Bay, through a difficult and uninhabited country,
and at a vast expense, that a mere fraction of the cost of this road
wo lid, if applied as a basis of credit, secure the construction of those
-Si miles common to the through line and to the Sault Ste. Marie Railway, es
*nd also of the remainder of the line to Sault Ste. Marie within
3 years ; that the line by Sault Ste. Marie would give Ontario, Quebec,
and the toast, railway connection with tfie North-West of nearly the
same length, and of better quality than the proposed North Shore line ;
"that it would also give to Canada a great trade from an enormous area
of the western States, extending from the boundary to a point south of
SSt. Paul, and even now inhabited by about 1,200,000 souls ; that it
would secure a way traffic ; that it would thus give within 3 years, and
«t a fraction of the cost of the other line, greater benefit than can be
secured by that line in 10 years, which is the period stipulated for its
construction ; that it would bring both the western States and the
Canadian North-West into connection by rail with the ocean steamers at
Montreal and Quebec on a route shorter by about 300 miles, than the
'existing route to New York; that this advantage, together with the
further gain of about 210 miles in the ocean voyage to Liverpool, would
give this route a commanding position, and secure great benefit to the
country at large : that the construction of the line to the Sault or
Goulais Bay would also give a first-class rail and water route via Sault
Ste. Marie and Thunder Bay, within our own limits, by the shortest
possible line for the transport of emigrants, goods and produce ; that
the construction of the line from Sturgeon River to or beyond Thunder
Bay to the north of Lake Superior, is under the circumstances premature, and should not be now undertaken."
Now, Sir, I think that the hon. member for Quebec East,
after having heard the statement which I have made—and
I take this opportunity of sayings I have laid my hands on
the report from the Canadian Pacific Railway Company
asking for the change of route and also on the report of the
Ohief Engineer, on it, and will send it across the House to
the leader of the Opposition to complete the papers bearing on that question—will find, no doubt greatly to his satisfaction and greatly to his delight, that everything which
he stated in his resolution as desirable to be attained if a
•different policy from ours was followed, is going to be
attained by our policy, and this not only without sacrificing and making subpBrvient and subsidiary a great
national line, connected from end to end through our own
country, and without making this line dependent during
any portion of the year on a foreign country for access from
one section to another of Canada, and that everything
which he indicated here as so important and so vital to the
interests of the country, is all attained under the policy of
the present Government, and under this contract. The
hon. gentleman will filld rapid construction within the three
years he indicated, during which it might be accomplished
of the road to Sault Ste. Maiie, and at the same time that
the amount from work done, with the exception of thirty-five
miles from the trunk line oflthe Canadian ]?acific Railway to
Sault Ste. Marie, will all form a portion of the Canadian
Pacific Railway. The hon, gentleman will find that the
direct route to the sea-board at Montreal and Quebec, which
he so mug) desired to secure, wfijl be secured, and this too
^at an earlier perlog than that at which he could possibly
-have expected to obtain it.   The  hon. gentleman will find 37
that everything that he has stated here in his resolution as
so essential in his judgment, and as being so much better than
the proposal of the Government, is not only all attained, but
is attained without the sacrifice of what he proposed to sacrifice—of a through lino through our territory, open at every
period of the year, not leaving us dependent for six months
of the year on the long, circuitous and expensive route,
through the United States of America. The hon.
gentleman will also find that under this changed policy wo
confidently believe that instead of requiring ten yearsr
which the contract gave these gentlemen for the construction of a through line of the Canadian Pacific Railway, within five or six years from this time at the furthest this lino
will be open for the 'traffic of tho country from end to
end. As we have disposed so entirely to the satisfaction of
the hon. member for Quebec East of the only objection
he had to our policy, as set forth to his resolution, I pass
on to the next—the resolution of the late Minister of the
Interior (Mr. Mills.)    He moved :
1 That the contract for the construction of the Canadian Pacific Railway, while it gives to the Company the absolute and perpetual right to
build branch lines of railway from any point or points along their line,
to any point or points within the Territories of the Dominion, and cedes
to the Company, free, all Government lands required in connection with
such branches, provides that for twenty years no line of r alwa'y shall be
authorized by the Dominion Parliament, or by any new Province, to be
constructed south of the Canadian Pacific Railway from any point at or
near that railway, except such as shall run south-west, or to the westward of south-west, nor to within fifteen miles of the boundary between
the United States and Canada ; the same contract cedes to the Company
the only existing outlets to the North-West, namely, the Pembina Branch
being the outlet southward, and the Thunder Bay line being the outlet
eastward ; the Company embraces the chief proprietors of the St. Paul
and Manitoba Railway, the only present means of railway communication
with the North-West; and, thus not only is there no provision for securing
competition, but there is provision securing the Company against competition, and they are secured in a monopoly of the trade and traffic of the
North-West for at least twenty years, and that the said contract i3, in
this respect, objectionable."
Now, Sir, it is rather singular that the hon. gentleman
should have taken so much trouble to expand on the Journals of Parliament a contradiction of his own policy. Hero
was a great Company undertaking to construct a great lino
of inter-communication through our country, and yet
Sir, they were to build thoso branches right and
left, without receiving one farthing of money or
one acre of land as a bonus towards their work. Yet the
hon. gentleman's policy was to allow any persons who
chose to organize a Company to construct lines through
the country, and pledged the country to give them
ten or twelve, or twenty sections of land per mile
without returning a single cent to the Treasury of
the country.   I think, Sir, he should  have been  the last 38
man to censure the Government for permitting lines to be
built which were to be built at the solo cost of the Company
and not at the cost of the country. The hon. gentleman
took great exception to the fact that two of the parties prominently engaged in this Canadian Pacific Railway were
connected with the Manitoba, Minneapolis and St. Paul
Railway, and he thought that was a very great objection.
Why, Sir, let those documents answer this objection. Before the contract was made with this Company we had a
great and powerful Company having the only means of
access by railway to our own North-West—a company who
were directly interested in preventing immigrants who
might pass over their road from going out of their territory
into ours. But what are the gentlemen connected with this
Company doing now. They are scattering thousands of
documents and pamphlets throughout the country,
not showing a little strip of land at the top
of the United States map calling it the Canadian North-
West, bu*t we find statements, over the signature of the
Managing Director, that the finest land in the world is in
the Canadian North-West. It has happened, just as I told
Parliament, last year, it would happen. I said that the minor
interests would be sunk in the 'mj|jor, and that as these
gentlemen wojild have ten times the interest in the
Canadian Pacific Railway that they had in their own road
to the south of it, we would expect that all their energies
and efforts would be directed, not towards keeping people
from going into our country and passing over their
lines, but in disseminating such information and
adopting such other means as would be necessary
to direct the tide of immigration into our own country.
These two vigorous and energetic men, Mr. Hill and Mr.
Angus, are doljpg their very best to make public the attractions of the Canadian North-West and induce people to
settle in that country. As it appears to have been the case
that in tho absence of sufficient material to furnish so many
resolutions, some points were repeated in different resolutions, I shall not refer to them all, so I shall pass over the
resolution of the late hon. Minister of the Interior merely
saying that while the Bill which the hon. gentleman introduced is to be found amongst the archives of the Canadian
Parliament, we will always have the most effective and
perfect answer to the resolution which he moved that it
would be possible to present. The hon. member for Gloucester (Mr. Anglin) moved this resolution :
" That the contract, respecting the Canadian Pacific Railway, provides for a distribution of the money and land to be given for the work,
wholly arbitrary and disproportionate ; that land and money, far in excess of the proportionate cost, is assigned to the prairie part, the easiest
and most productive portion of the railway, which is alleged, will be 3a
constructed within three years, by whieh time, the Company will be
entitled in cash and lands to a surplus amounting, according to the
government estimate of the land, of $3.18 an acre, to over $34,000,000,
■which surplus should have been reserved and applied towards the construction and working of the eastern and western ends, and that the said
contract is, in this respect, objectionable."
But the hon. gentleman overlooked the fact that it was of
the most vital importance to Canada, that progress should
be made in a most vigorous and efficient manner, first, in
opening up the Prairie districts of the North-West. He
overlooked the enormous capital and plant required at the
outset by the Company, in order to carry on the work with
proper vigor and efficiency, but he will now be
relieved to find that vigorous progress is being
made on tho eastern end of the road, and
that the work is being grapped with in such a way
that by the middle of next season it will give abundant
assurance to the country, that so far from neglecting the progress of the eastern end it is held by the Company to be of
vital importance that they should complete that section at the
earliest possible moment. They propose during the coming
season to lay the track on fifty miles from Callander west,
and some sixty miles in addition from Algoma Mills
going eastward to meet that point, and to place
under contract fifty miles from Thunder Bay to the
head of Lake Superior, thus showing that they are
determined to push on the work as rapidly as possible.
The great expenditure they arc now making in endeavoring
to obtain a through route at Kicking Horse Pass, is also
an evidence of the vigor and energy with which they are
prepared to grapple with the western end of tho line.
The hon* member for South Perth, who has given this
question of the North-West an amount of consideration
which, I may say, has rendered him an authority on the
subject—and I do not hesitate to say that there is perhaps
no hon. gentleman sitting on the Opposition benches, with
perhaps the exception of the hon. member for Lambton—
and even ho has not been able to give the North-West that
personal examination and attention which the hon. member
lor North Perth has given it—who is personally familiar
with that country—I say that I am quite satisfied that hon.
gentleman cannot regard the enormous development
taking place in that country without feelings of tho
liveliest satisfaction and the keenest possible interest. But
the hon. gentleman was extremely anxious a year ago as
tQ the position that the settlers would be in who went into
the North-West. The hon. gentleman was afraid that under
our system, we were giving too much attention to the
construction of this great trunk line, and were not sufficiently
caring for the position in which the settlers would be placed 40
who located a loifyg the line of that railway. Now, Sir, I think
what has taken place within the last year will have convinced that hon. gentleman that his fears were totally
unfounded. I think what has taken place will convince
him that no person who was settling in the North-West
would be placed at a greater disadvantage than were the
settlers of the older provinces with respect to railway communication. I will direct his attention to his resolution.   It says :
I That the contract respecting the Canadian Pacific Railway
exempts 25,000,000 of acres of choice lands of the Company from Dominion, provincial, and municipal taxation, until such lands are either
sold or occupied for twenty years after the grant thereof from the
crown ; that such exemption is unjust, and will impose undue burdens
on the settlers on the alternate sections, who will be obliged to make
improvements and incur expenses, enhancing the value of the company's lands without receiving their fair share of the cost of such improvements and expenses ; that such exemption by freeing the company
from the burdens of taxation, will reduce the inducements to the company to sell their lands.early, and will enable the company free of
expense to hold their lands till their value has been greatly enhanced
by the labours of the adjoining settlers."
Now, Sir, I ask that hon. gentlemen in all candor to
say whether, what has taken place between the time that
he moved that resolution and to-day,,it has not given him the
most perfect and complete answer which it is possible for
any person to give, to tho resolution he moved. Why, Sir,
what is tho fact? The.fact is that the Canadian Pacific
Railway Company are placing the whole of their 25,000,000
acres of land in the market at $1.25. Instead of adopting,
the policy of holding them which it was alleged they would
adopt; instead of doing what the hon gentleman feared
that tho Company would bo induced to do, namely, hold
their lands until they would acquire a value by
the cultivation of the adjoining sections, which would bo
taken for free homesteads,—what have they done ? Why,
Sir, they have said to tho world: '' We have determined not
to sell our lands to speculators at any price." Offer them
$5 or $10 an aero, or what you like for their lands,
and the answer will bo: li We do not want your money, but
if you are ready to cultivate the land, you can have it for
$1.25." They have put up their lands at the maximum
price cf $2.50 per acre, for the whole 25,000,000 acres, and
for every aero cultivated within four years they return to
the purchaser one half of his purchase money, thus reducing
the cost of every acre of land to $1.25. They do more—
they treat the construction of buildings and the making of
imp|bvements as meeting the case of the cultivation of t\e
lands, and accept that in lieu of cultivation to a certain
extent; and in all their regulations from the very first,
they have aimed  at placing  their lands in the hands of 41
persons who would cultivate and settle them at the lowest
possible rate—at a rate that cannot yield them more than
an acre, because   no person can  say that they can
administer their lands at less than 25 cents an acre ; so
that practically their 25,000,000 acres of land are open to
all persons who will chose to settle on them at $1.25.
Mr. TROW. That is on the express condition that the
rebate is paid, which is an impossibility, because the settler
cannot comply with the contract to cultivate one-half in
four years.
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. I think the hon. gentleman
will find that he is laboring under a great mistake. I am
told that persons who make it a business to break land
estimate forty acres for a pair of horses in a year, that is to
say, that one pair of horses, engaged in doing nothing else,
can break the land and make it ready for putting under
cultivation, at the rate of forty acres a year.
Mr. ANGLIN. What would the settler live on during
the year ?
Sir CHARLES TUPPER. I am not saying what he
could live on ; but I say this : that if a man, with a pair of
horses, can in one year break forty acres of that land—and,
after it is once broken, as the hon. member for Perth knows
if the hon. member for Gloucester does not, its cultivation is
a mere bagatelle, so easy that a man with a pair of horses
can farm 100 acres a year if he wishes—then I say any man
of any energy and vigor can succeed in breaking up within
the four years—especially taking into consideration that
the value of his houses and improvements are held to
balance the want of cultivation of a certain portion, ono
half of his land, and if he does, he gets the whole of it at
the rebate. Now, Sir, I say in that state of things the horn
gentleman's fears must be removed. These gentlemen
biiow that they understand their business too
well, to hold their lands at a high price. That
every acre of land put under cultivation i3 worth
twice as much to them as it would be if they got
$10 an acre for it at the end of ten years. So that that
objection is swept away. I do not wish to detain the House
on this point, but 1 have had a letter, which was published
in the Montreal Gazette by the secretary of the Company,
placed in my hands, which hon. gentlemen may read for
themselves, and from which they will find that gross misstatements have been made in reference to the terms of
sale and settlement required by the Company. These terms
were too restrictive, I think, in the first instance, but
they were adopted with the first object of shutting out the 42
speculator and getting their lands in the hands of men who
would cultivate the soil; and they have been rendered so
liberal that every difficulty in that respect has been
removed, and the best evidence has been given that these
gentlemen are willing to part with the whole of their lands
for agricultural purposes at a price that will not return to
them more than one dollar an acre. The colonization
companies they ask to pay $5.00 an acre, and on what
terms ? They compel them to put settlers on the land to
break them up, and they will grant the rebate of $3.75 an
acre if within live years they will put settlers on and
cultivate the land ; so that the land costs the colonization
companies under their terms, only $1.25 an acre, and taking
off 25 cents for the cost of administering the lands,
the House will see that the land granted to them is not
intended or desired to realize more than $1 an acre. Now, Sir,
what about municipal taxation, about which the hon. gentleman opposite was so anxious ? I have an answer which
I think he will regard as entirely conclusive. The city of
Winnipeg is not prevented from imposing taxation to their
heart's content; but what did they do ? Show their eagerness to get an opportunity to tax these lands and make the
municipality rich by the taxe3 which, they would derive
from the Company who'were increasing their wealth a
§j|indred-fold ? No; they understood the interests of
Winnipeg too well, and the first thing they said to this company was: I Make this your head quarters, and we will give
you $200,000;" and they voted a bonus from taxes they
paid themselves, to this Company of $200,000 forthwith.
That is the best evidence of whether the municipalities
jfjjgjbsider that to tax the property of this Company, or
whether to obtain a railway to their own doors, is most
in their interest. The little parish of St Andrew's, on the
Selkirk Branch, actually come forward with a bonus of
$65,000; more, the Manitoba and South-Western Railway
also obained from the municipalities along the line $100,000
in bonuses to induce them to bring the lino to those points.
Instead of showing any eagerness to get an opportunity of
taxing the railways, they know that the greatest benefit that
tha^they can receive is railway communication, and provided they can receive that, they are prepared toj§ax themselves in order to give this large bonus to the Manitoba and
South-Western Railway.    The township of Louise gave
more in order to
another location,  making
$165,000 altogether granted to that Qompauy. Although
the Canadian Pacific Railway runs through Portage la
Prairie, so thoroughly do the people of that town appreciate
the importance of having it made a railway centre that
they ask the Portage, Westbourne and North-West Railway 43
* Company to bring their line to that town, and they will
give them a bonus of $100,000; and Westbourne, which
includes  Gladstone,  supplements   that   bonus  with   $75,-
000 more. So that here is $605,000 or over half
a million in a single year, contributed by these
municipalities for tho purpose of obtaining railway
communication, showing whether they think it was
important to have an opportunity of taxing the companies, or whether they believe they will be the gainers by
taxing themselves in order to bring the railways to their
own doors. Under these circumstances, I think I may
venture to pass on from the resolution moved by the hon.
member for South Perth, perfectly satisfied that the hon.
gentleman, knowing as he does the condition of that country
and the intelligence manifested by these various municipalities in taking the course they have taken, will find that
the last thing that need ever concern any hon. member of
this House is to bestow his sympathy upon the inhabitants
of the great North-West, who have railway communication
brought to their own doors without any cost to themselves,
because they are deprived of the power of levying taxation,
a thing   which   they show they have no   desire to do.
1 now come to the resolution moved by the hon. member
for Brant (Mr. Paterson), who was very anxious to get the
railway out of my hands. It did not look like it, however, and I may say I felt greatly flattered when the Government laid upon the Table of the House a contract proposing to sever my connection with the Canadian Pacific
Railway, and to hand it over to a Company, when I found
the keen anxiety exhibited by every hon. gentleman opposite that that contract and work should remain in my hands.
I could not but feel that great mark of confidence bestowed
upon me by the deep reluctance they showed to have
the work taken out of my hands and placed in those of great
capitalists. After a year's experience I am afraid those hon.
gentlemen will have discovered that I was right and they
were wrong; that in the conclusion at which 1 had arrived
that an independent company could grapple better with
this great railroad than any Government, and that the
work would be advanced more rapidly, more economically,
and be carried on more satisfactorily by private enterprise,
in the light of last years transactions is being clearly
proved. The resolution of the member for Brant complained
that we had not attained a finality. His objection was stated
in the following terms :—
That the contract respecting the Canadian Pac'fic Railway, laid on
the Table, does not insure finality as to the public obligations in that
regard, but imposes on Canada, besides the grant of large sums of
money and acres of land, the construction by the Government for the
benefit of the Syndicate of the most expensive  parts of the railway'
x 44
which are to be built by the Government during the next ten years, an$
that the said contract is, in this respect, objectionable.
Hon; gentlemen opposite, I repeat, professed great regret at
seeing that work pass from my hands to those of a com-
» pany; but he took also tho objection that there was no
immediate termination of the connection of the Government
with this work. But ho will see how much we have done
to relieve him. We have reduced the period of our connection with the road to less than five years. His objection
was based on the fear that that connection would last ten
years, that being the period fixed for the construction of tho
branch from Emory's .Bar to Port Moody. But he will see
that by the vigorous course of the Government it is proposed to have all the works, everything the hon. the
Minister of Railways has anything to do with in connection
with the Canadian Pacific Railway, entirely out of my
hands by 1st July, 1885—that the finality- the hon. gentleman was so anxious about, in three years will have been
attained. I stated with confidence to the House one year
ago, that I believed all the expenditures of the Government
might safely be estimated at $28,000,000, for the sections in
its hands, embracing all the outlays up to that time. After
a year of further experience in the subject, having been
able to make closer estimates, I am glad to be able to
reassure the House that I expect before the 1st of July„
1885, to have severed our connection with the construction
of the Government's sections, and to have achieved that
finality the hon. gentleman was so solicitous about a year
ago, without extending that answer.
Mr. ANGLIN.     Your   connection with them will  he*
severed long before that.
% Sir CHARLES TUPPER. Well, so far as I am personally concerned I may say that those who have to discharge duties so arduous, so responsible, and under such
conditions as mine, will not feel great regret at having
their labors lightened and such connections severed. Bat
I see no hope of it, desirable«as it may bo so far as my
health, comfort and longevitv are concerned. So far as the
country is concerned £iam afraid that the course hon.
gentlemen opposite have pursued in relation to this great
question as well as to others is one that will compel us to
have the pleasure of looking upon them on that side of the
House for many long years. The motion of the hon. member
for Lotbiniere has been disposed of already. His party was
short of material and he had to make use of material already-
used before.   It reads thus:
% That the contract respecting the Canadian Pacific Railway contains
provision for ceding to   the   Company   25,000,000   acres  of  choice 45
lands in the North-West, but it does not, as it should, embrace
any provision that such lands shall be open to sale to actual settlers at
any maximum price; that the absence of such provision will enable the
Company to lock up the lands at their pleasure for a long time, and so
be injurious to the progiess of the country, and add to the labors and
difficulties of the early settlers, and that the said contract is, in this
respect, objectionable."
I have already dealt with that motion which was contained
in a previous resolution moved by the hon. member for North
Perth, and which, therefore, requires no further notice.
The maximum price established by this Company itself, for
its lands makes them available to all, ready to cultivate them
at the enormous price of $1.25 an acre. The hon.
member for North Norfolk (Mr. Charlton), moved this
resolution :
"That the contract respecting the Canadian Pacific Railway exempts
25,000,000 acres of choice lands of the Company, from Dominion,
Provincial and municipal taxation, until such lands are either sold or
occupied for twenty years after the grant thereof from the Crown ; that
such exemption is unjust and will impose undue burdens on the settlers
■on the alternate sections, who will be obliged to make improvements
and incur expenses, enhancing the value of the Company's lands without receiving their fair share of the cost of said improvements and
expenses; that such exemptions by freeing the Company from the burdens of taxation, will reduce the inducements to the Company to sell
their land3 early, and will enable the Company, free of expense, to hold
their lands till their value has been greatly enhanced by the labors of
the adjoining settlers, and that the said contract is, in this respect,
"That the contract respecting the Canadian Pacific Railway exempts
perpetually the railway and all stations and station grounds, workshops,
buildings, yards and other property, rolling stock and appurtenances,
require1! for the construction and working thereof, and the capital
stock of the Company, from taxation by the Dominion or by any other
Province to be hereafter established, or by any municipal corporation
therein. That the property of the Corporation will be in substance a gift
from the public ; and its exemption from taxe3 is unjust, creates an
unfair incidence of taxation, and gives an undue advantage to the
Company over other railway companies, calculated to prevent the
construction of competing lines, and the contract is, in this respect,
Well, that hon. gentleman has. also been answered. All
that was covered in the previous resolution; and it is
answered by the bonuses given by the municipalities out of
their own taxation, over $600,000, to secure the benefits of
railway communication. So I may now pass to the resolution moved bv the hon. member for West Middlesex, as
"That the contract respecting the Canadian Pacific Railway provides, that Parliament shall not have power to interfere with the tolls,
charged by the Company, unless the same produce, first the working
expenses of the whole line, including the British Columbia and Lake
Superior sections, which working expenses comprise all expenses of
maintenance ot the railway and of the stations, buildings, workshops
and appurtenances belonging thereto, and the rolling-stock and other
stock and movable plant used in the working thereof,  and also hire of 46
rents, charges and interest on lands not paid for, and all
expenses incidental to working the railway and the traffic thereon,
including stores and all consumable articles, and also rates, taxes, insurance and compensation for accidents or losses, also all salaries and
wages of persons employed in connection with the railway or traffic, and
all office and management expenses, including directors' fees, agency,
legal and other like expenses, and thereafter a profit at least of 10 per
cent, on the capital expended on the construction of the railway which
includes the public money and the proceeds of the public lands so
expended, thus restraining Parliament from interfering unless the Company receives at least $8,000,000 a year profit, on a private capital of
merely nominal amount; the Parliament ought to have power to regulate the tolls on the railway from time to time, as and when the public
interest requires, and that the contract is, in this respect, objectionable."
He charged that the profit will have to be $8,000,000
before the tolls could be lowered. An answer was given to
the hon. gentleman before the House rose last year, by an
amendment to tho Canadian Railways Act embodying in
that Act what was 1 he understanding with the Company
and ourselves, that their capital should be regarded not as
the amount which they had reojived from the Government
of Canada, but as the actual capital they contributed themselves. But, Sir, the hon. gentlemen seemed to overlook
the fact that not a cent of toll could be charged to any
passenger or for a pound of freight carried over the Canadian Pacific Railway, until the Company had the sanction
of the Governor in Council to enable them to charge that
toll. He seemed to forget that the right hon. the
Eirst Minister stated that it was the intention of the Government to fix those tolls that should thus be collected, and
only to make the Order in Council for a certain specific
term until the condition of the country and the road and
matters appertaining could be reconsidered and the tolls readjusted in such a way as to do full justice to the country.
The answer to that, I think, will be quite as conclusive as those I have been already able to give, t
hold in my hand a statement of the tolls that
this corporation are authorized by the Governor in
Council to collect from the inhabitants of that
country who obtained such a large amount of sympathy
from hon. gentlemen a year ago. I have made a comparative statement of the tariffs of the Intercolonial Railway,
Prince Edward Island Railway, the Canada Central Railway,
the ( anadian PacificSElailway when operated by the Government, the Toronto, Grey and Bruce Railway, the St. Paul,
Minneapolis ancfiManitoba, the Western and North-Western,
the Grand Trunk and others. Hon. gentlemen will see that
while I have taken leading lines ii Canada, so as to make a
clear contrast, I have dealt, to a considerable extent, with
railways opening up the North-Western States and running
through, as the hon. gentleman knows, sections of country
where there is a certain amount of similarity with our 47
North-West, but where there is a much greater degree of
settlement than in our Canadian North-West. As this is a
matter to which the hon. leader* of the Opposition devoted a
great deal of attention, and which I understand he deplored
more deeply than any thing else in connection with this contract, I am quite sure the House will bear with me if I take
the opportunity, at some length, to show the hon. gentleman that his sympathy was thrown away; that it was not
required, and that there is no room for him to bestow anymore of it in that connection. Of course, the charges upon
railways are in proportion to the distance that freight is
carried. That is the mode in which all railway tariffs are
constructed.   The following is the comparative statement : 48 \
It will be seen by this statement that the first thing this
corporation did was to reduce their tariff below the amount
which-the Government had charged for the same service
before the road passed out of their hands, and that its rates
are considerably below those of many roads. The Atchison,
Topeka, and Santa Fe. Eailway charges 75 cents for the
service for which the Canadian Pacific Eailway charges
45 cents. The Northern Pacific charges 80 cents for
the same service ; the Union Pacific 60 cents ; the
Chicago, Burlington, Quincey Eailway, 59 cents; and so on
the same relation is held with the various classes of freight
for the various districts I have mentioned. I am asked by
my hen. friend behind me if there is any one of these
sixteen r?ilways~~which charges less than the Canadian
Pacific Eailway, and to the best of my knowledge, holding
the paper in my hand, I do not see a single case in which
the charge of the Canadian Pacific Eailway is not as low as
any one 1 have stated.
Mr. BLAKE. The hon. gentleman has already stated
some instances himself.
Sir CHAELES TUPPEE. Of course, I leave tho Government railways out of this comparison for the reason I have
already stated, but among all these other companies I do
not see one case.
Mr. BLAKE. There is the Northern and the North-
Sir CHAELES TUPPEE. The Central Vermont I see is a
cent lower, and the St. Paul, Minneapolis and Manitoba,
which has been complained of so much, is also 3 cents
lower—that is in the short distance and for the first-class
freight; but, as I said, I will ask permission of the House
to publish this table exactly as it stands in the Hansard, as
a matter of record, and a very useful one it will be in dealing with this very important question of freights. Yes,
the Northern and North-Western is 16 cents to 17 cents for
tho first-class, which is a cent lower, but on the longer
distance I do not see any of these of which I have the
amounts given which is lower than the Canadian Pacific
Eailway, and as I have shown in tho distances of 145 miles
to 150 miles it is very greatly lower.. I think the same
will be found which referred to the charges for 70 to 75
miles and from 95 to 100 miles. I think it will be found
that there are no charges lower than those of the Canadian
Pacific Eailway for the 95 to 100 milos. From 70 to 75
miles, the charges are 29, 22, 19 and 50 cents, but I see no
instance in this table, which is compiled so far as tho figures
could be obtained for the various distances in
Which       the     Canadian     Pacific     Eailway      is     not 60
lowest   IVom    45   to    50   miles    tne
are 24, 13, 15 and 12 cents according   to tho class   of
freight.    1 think for the distance from forty-five to fifty
miles there is not a single instance, so far as I am able to
see at this  moment,  among all these railways, that the
charges are not higher than the Canadian Pacific Eailway,
and there are only a very few instances in the distance from
twenty to twenty-five miles in which the charge is higher.
Now, Sir, the hon. member for  Huntington (Mr. Scriver)
was very much afraid this Company, in the latitude they
were allowed of locating the line subject to the approval of
the Governor in Council, would deflect the line through the
Prairie County in such a manner as largely to defeat the
main objeot of establishing a great central route through
the North-West.   I give the hon. gentleman the evidonce
that his   fears were unfounded from the  fact that the
first   thing   they   do   is    to    rebuild    the   line    from
Winnipeg to Portage la Prairie with one main object of
shortening the distance by thirteen miles, and the evidence
that they are expending at this moment a large sum of
money in endeavoring to obtain the most direct line by the
Kicking Horse Pass in order to make this a through continental line by shortening it by every possible means in
their power.   Then the hon. member for South Wellington
(Mr. Guthrie) moved a resolution, which I need not go
over, because it has been all embraced in two or three of the
other resolutions.   It  is   with  regard  to   this question
of reducing the tolls, and the question of capital which was
dealt with by the resolution moved by the hon. member for
West Middlesex (Mr4 Eoss), and which I have already
answered, I think, by showing that the first thing they did
was to lower the rate that the Government were charging,
and that the Governor in Council has only anthorized  a
rate that is in almost every instance greatly below that of
railways that are similarly situated.   The hon. gentleman
for L'Islet (Mr. Casgrain) dealt with this question of tolls,
which seems to have agitated hon. gentlemen opposite very
much, but I need not say anything more with respect  to
that.   I now  come* to the resolution moved by the hon.
member for South Huron (Mr. Cameron), who said:
"The contract does not make satisfactory provision for securing the
traffic to and from Montreal and the last by the Quebec, Montreal
Ottawa and Occidental Railway, against preferentiil charges which the
Canada Pacific Railway may establish in favor of the Canada Central
Railway, the St. Lawrence and Ottawa Railway, the Coteaa Railway,
or other lines of railway to the south and east."
Well, Sir, I think that objection has been removed. The
first thing this corporation does is to obtain, by an expenditure of $4,000,000, a through line from the capital of the
country to the initial point of the Canadian Pacific Eailway at Lake Nipissing, by the purchase of the Canada Central
Eailway, and having done that, evidently with the view to
meet the anxiety of the hon. member for South Huron in
this matter of not giving fair play to the line between the
city of Ottawa and Montreal on tho Quebec side of the
river, this Company has acquired by a further outlay of
some $4,000,000 the lino from here to Montreal; so I think,
Sir, they have effectually disposed of the objections the
hon. gentleman stated in this resolution by providing, in
connection with the purchase, for traffic arrangements with
the line from Montreal to tho harbor of Quebec, thus
obtaining power to make the rate themselves over that road
to Quebec, and practically giving the country a through line
of communication from Port Moody, on tho Pacific, to the
great contres of commerce of Montreal and Quebec, and
bringing these into the most easy and perfect communication with the seaboard on both sides of the continent.
I need not say that it is an open secret with the House—I
believe the fact is well known—that it is proposed by
providing for a ferry at Quebec and shortening the
communication from Levis to the Intercolonial, to make
that the most rapid and perfect communication from Port
Moody on the one side down over this great national
undertaking to Quebec, and thence to Halifax, carrying the
trade and business of the country on a through line from
ocean to ocean and providing every facility for bringin
the commerce of the country over our own great national
highway. Then the hon. member for Yarmouth
(Mr. Killam) was afraid that the revenue would
suffer by our providing for the admission, duty
free, of all steel rails, fish-plates and other fastenings, spikes, and nuts, timber and all materials for
bridges to be used in the original construction of the railway. Well, Sir, I have already told the hon. gentleman
that, of course, steel rails are free. I have told him that the
finest description of steel rails ever imported in this country
are being imported for the Canadian Pacific Eailway, and
the fastenings as well, in the construction of that road. I
may also tell hon. gentlemen that the bridges are all iron
and that tho revenue does not suffer on them in the
slightest degree, because they are constructed in the Province of Ontario. Therefore, we may pass by that resolution
without further attention. The hon. member for Eimouski
(Mr. Fiset) moved in amendment, stating :
That the contract respecting the Canadian Pacific Railway makes
no sufficient or satisfactory provision for the construction of the work
jn a proper manner, or its efficient operation afterwards, nor does it, as
it should, provide that so much ot the work as is done by the Company
shall, in case they make default in completing the railway, belong to tbe
G-overnment, and that the contract is, in tlfese respects; objectionable
& The hon. gentleman has been informed that the road is
first-class in every respect, that the rails were of the best
description, and when I vent^ed to say a year ago that we
had a better guarantee than any standard that might be
laid down, in the fact that these gentlemen were obliged to
operate their road for all time to come, after it was constructed, and said that that was the best possible assurance
that they would not fail to construct the road in the most
officient manner, because just in proportion as they
■Sft so they would be able to operate it cheaply and
efficiently. The evidence is now before the country,
and I have stated to the House that they have taken precisely the same view of that question which was taken by
me, so that the fears of the hon. member for Eimouski
(Mr. Fiset) have proved as unfounded as the others. The
fact that the Company have been ablo to handle $603,000
worth of business between May and February is the host
evidence that they are to operate the road efficiently as
well as to construct it in a first-class manner. Then the
hon. member for Bellechasso, (Mr. Larue) moved a resolution in which he exhibited a great deal of patriotic anxiety
that this road should not pass into the hands of foreigners,—
and evinced also a good deal of jealousy of certain foreigners
connected with the work. He
moved the following reso-
That the said resolution be not now read a second time, but that it
be resolved, That the contract respecting the Canadian Pacific Railway
makes no provision for the creation or continuance of a substantial
Canadian interest in the stock of the Company;  nor does it
against the transfer of a controlling interest to foreigners at any time
ot the incorporation of the Company; and it provides that the Company
may appoint and fix places of business beyond the limits of Canada,
where the business of the Company may be transacted, and at which
the directors and shareholders may meet; that under this provision the
important business of the Company may be transacts!!, and its
directors' and shareholders' meetings held in St. Paul, Minnesota, or
New York, or elsewhere in the United States; that sucn power should
not be given, and that the contract in this respect is objectionable.
It will be remembered that the late Finance Minister took
very much the same ground. I believe that hon. gentleman
had not the same dread of meetings in connection with the
Company being held in the United States, as the hon. mem
ber for Bellechasse, but he exhibited the same great
anxiety that the road should not pass out of the hands of the
gentlemen who had undertaken it. That hon. gentleman
(Sir Eichard J. Cartwright) bore ample testimony of the
high character and standing of the parties to the contract.
Fie admitted that it would be difficult to find Canadians
possessed of greater resources or means of handling a great
work than this Company. He admitted that George Stephen,
Duncan Mclntyre, J. S. Kennedy, E. B. Angus, J. J.  Hill, 53
Donald A. Smith, Henry Stafford Northcote, Pascoo du P
Grenfell,London; Charles D. Eose of London, and Baron J. de
Eeinach, of Paris, were men possessed of great wealth and
abundant resources to undertake such a work. Some
of these men had been engaged in the construction of a similar work through a prairie country and
in tho Bale and settlement of lands. The late Finance
Minister drew attention to the fact that, eminent as were the
positions of these gentlemen, there was no guarantee that
they would remain in the work. He assumed that they would,
under the contract, put a gigantic operation on the market,
and sell out, at an advantage of several millions to themselves, and having divided a fortune amongst themselves,
they would disappear and that we had no guarantee whatever for anyone of these parties remaining in the work and
devoting to it the skill, the enterprise and the energy which
they possessed. But what do we find after a year has
passed ? We find every one of these gentlemen to the fore;
we find that, just as I said a yeai ago, they are regarding
their operations with Minnesota and Dakota as comparatively trivial compared with the construction of this enormous work in the North-West. We find that these
gentlemen, instead of transferring their headquarters to
St. Paul and creating this a subsidiary work,
to that railway, as was feared by the hon. mover
of this resolution, have not done so; and Mr.
Angus, who had removed from Montreal and was
resident at St. Paul, has changed his quarters, returning to Montreal in order that he might give his whole and
undivided attention and great financial ability to ^dealing
with this work. We find, Sir, that this Company instead of
transferring their headquarters as the hon; member for
West Elgin—between whom and myself there was a rather
unpleasant misunderstanding in relation to something
which the hon. gentleman said on the subject a year ago—
feared, his fears are entirely disposed of; and that although
one of these gentlemen who is the manager of that railway
and also lived in St. Paul and lives there still, and
manages the railway, ho devotes his time to sending handbills of the most attractive character all over
this   and    all    other   countries     for    the   purpose   of
showing that the most attractive wheat field m
the world is to be found north of the Boundary Line instead
of in Dakota and Minnesota. Mr. Angus has gone to
Montreal and this Company has invested in 200 acres of
land in Montreal to be used for their headquarters, and
great machine shops and everything of this kind, costing
$150,000 and paying £83,000 more for their general
offices, or an expenditure already at their headquarters of 54
$233,000,   giving,   I  say,    every    evidence   that   it    is
possible to   give, that theso   gentlemen  have  the most
unbounded faith and   confidence in the   success of this
enterprise; that instead of being anxious to be rid of it,
and letting it pass out of their hands, their ambition is to
make   this   great   international   highway   tho   highway
between the Old World and the East; and that they intend
to spare npither time, nor labor, nor money in making their
work first-olass work, a credit to themselves and a credit to
Canada.    It is not necessary, therefore, Sir, that we should
take up more of the time of the House in relation to this
matter.   But Sir, my friend the hon. member for Inverness
(Mir. MacDonnell) moved an amendment, and his amendment expressed the fear that the  contract respecting the
Canadian Pacific Eailway does not preserve to the Government the right to give other corporations running powers
over the Thunder Bay Line, and   Pembina Branch, but
improperly cedes to the Company the absolute and exclusive
right to these avenues.   Now, Sir, that hon.   gentleman
will   be  glad   to   leaip   that  so   far   from   a    desire
to   oppress,   or  embarrass,   or   obstruct   any companies
engaged in   the construction  of railways in the North -
West, this Company   had   decided to   build,   and  were
engaged   in  projecting, a   line   from Portage la Prairie
up in the direction of Prince Albert, but the Portage, West-
bourne and North-West   Company went to see them, to
ascertain what terms they could make for the purpose of
their taking up this line.   And how do you suppose they
were met.   In a spirit   of obstruction   or embarassment ?
Not at all.    The Company said to these gentlemen: | We
are only too glad to have the aid, assistance and co-operation of any persons who are prepared to take up a work of
this kind and connect their line with the Canadian Pacific
Eailway   and   increase   the   traffic   and   bnsiness which
will be   brought   over   our   line.     If you will organize
and   take   up   that   lino   of railway,   we will not only
withdraw    from    the    ground,    instead    of  building   a
rival     line     and    endeavoring    to    obstruct     or    embarrass   you,   but   we   will   pledge ourselves   and   bind
ourselves by a solemn agreement to  give you terms of
running and of traffic arrangements, by which all your
traffic brought to the Canadian Pacific Eailway, will not
only be carried to Thunder Bay, but we will give you an
independent outlet at Thunder Bay upon terms of an equal
rate   with ourselves,   and   a   great advantage   over   our
ordinary mileage rate."    They entered into this arrange-
ment, and this Company have secured an independent outlet,
under these terms, to Thunder Bay, by which all the products which they can bring over tfyejr Jine^ when con- to Prince Albert, will not only have free couWe
over the Canadian Pacific Eailway, and have an independent
outlet, but they will pass over the Canadian Pacific Eailway
upon terms which are eminently satisfactory and favorable
to the Company that is engaged in the building of this
branch. This, I am told, Sir, is tho spirit in which they
are prepared to deal -with any of these parties 1 think I
have said everything with reference to these resolutions
that is necessary, except with regard to a resolution which
referred to there being no other outlet to the trade of the
North-West. Why, Sir, it is perfectly well known that, at
this moment, two lines of railway are not only projected,
but that companies are organized, embracing wealthy
capitalists, who are determined, and have decided to
take up the construction of lines of railway from Winnipeg to Hudson's Bay; and who believe that they have
satisfied themselves that beyond question it is perfectly
practicable for several months in the ye which we are towards national life. 1 say, Sir, to tne great
Conservative party of this country—I say, Sir, to the great
Liberal-Conservative party, to whom this country owes its
present condition	
Some hon. MEMBERS.   Hoar, hear.
Sir CHAELES TUPPEE. Yes, Sir, I say that this
country owes its present condition to the Liberal-
Conservative party. Contrast the life of to-day
with the lethargy and death which was exhibited
in relation to these great interests three years ago,
and then tell me, whether I am not warranted in saying
that to the great Liberal-Conservative party, Canada, this
country owes the now life and vigor which has been
infused into the development of all its great material
interests. I say, Sir, I congratulate the great Liberal-Conservative party on what it has achieved—achieved, I would
be very glad to add with the manly aid and hearty cooperation of hon. gentlemen opposite. We were entitled to
receive that aid. We had every claim that a party could
have on those hon. gentlemen, owing to the position in
which they had placed the public affairs of this country, and
especially in connection with this work, for that
independent support that one party, - whatever they
may be called, is entitled to receive from their
oppononts under such circumstances. . But I say,
Sir, we sought that aid in vain; and to-day, to the great
Liberal Conservative party, it is not only due, but it is due
to them alone, that this country has been lifted out of the
condition of prostration which was witnessed in our country
three years ago, into a condition of advancement and prosperity and progress to-day which will compare favorably
with the advancement of any portion of the civilised


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