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Extracts from debates in Dominion Parliament and British Columbia Legislative Council in 1871 on the… British Columbia. Legislative Council; Canada. Parliament 1880

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Array EXTRACTS   FROM  DEBATES
EN.
DOMINION PARLIAMENT
BRITISH COLUMBIA LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL
In   1871
THE RAILWAY LAND CLAUSE
THE TERMS OP UNION OF BRITISH COLUMBIA
WITH CANADA.
•OTTAWA:
PRINTED BY MACLEAN,  ROGER & CO.,  WELLINGTON STREET.
1880. 
THE LIBRARY
THE UNIVERSITY OF
BRITISH COLUMBIA
Gift
Provincial Archives of 
B.C. EXTRACTS  FROM  DEBATES
IN
DOMINION PARLIAMENT
AND
BRITISH COLUMBIA LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL
In   1871
THE RAILWAY LAND CLAUSE
OP
THE TERMS OE UNION OF BRITISH COLUMBIA
WITH CANADA.
OTTAWA:
PRINTED BY MACLEAN, ROGER & CO., WELLINGTON STREET.
1880.  EXPLANATION.
These Extracts were taken, from the only reports of Debates found in
the Parliamentary Library, Ottawa, and include all that is reported to have
been said, during debate, in the Legislative Council of British Columbia
and in the Dominion Parliament about Railway Lands, when the question
of the admission of that Province into the Confederation was under discussion in 1871.
The Extracts, from the Parliamentary Debates, in 1869, on the proposed
admission of Newfoundland, have been added to establish more clearly the
real reason, why the Dominion Government offered to give British Columbia, after the Financial Terms proposed by the latter were rejected,
$100,000 a year for ever for a 20-mile belt of land on each side of the Railway through that Province.
The Financial Statements, on pages 1 and 2, show what Subsidies
British Columbia proposed, and what were offered by Canada and agreed
to.
The Appendix contains an extract from an Act of 18*75 conveying to
the Dominion, a 20-mile belt of land on each side of the proposed Railway
between Esquimalt and Nanaimo ; and, also, an Act of 1880 conveying to
the Dominion Government, a 20-mile belt of Land on each side of the Railway between English Bay, Burrard Inlet, and the summit of Tete Jaune
Pass on the eastern boundary of British Columbia.
In the Appendix, there is, also, a letter, dated " Victoria April 14th,
1830," addressed to the Attorney General of British Columbia, by Mr. Trutchi
a Confidential Agent of the Dominion Government, in which that gentleman, in the name of that Government, requests the Provincial Government
to transfer to the Dominion, outside of the 40-mile belt, but does not mention where, "an equal area of lands suitable for farming or other valuable
purposes," in lieu of those lands within the 40-mile railway land belt that,
on investigation, may be found valueless,—and has thus raised a question
that is entirely new—never heard of before.
My own intimate personal knowledge of the history of the union of
British Columbia with Canada enables me to state, that this entirely new
115247 IV
claim for land in that Province is without a color or shadow of right to
support it. Nothing but the circumstance that Mr. Trutch who raises this
question, was one of the delegates who visited Ottawa, in 1870, to negotiate
the Terms of Union, makes it worthy of consideration. It is this fact that
has induced me to collect these Extracts, &c, together, and place them within
the reach of those who might otherwise be led to believe, that there is some
truth and justice in the claim put forward by Mr. Trutch. If new terms
respecting the Railway lands had been proposed, the proposal, whether
judicious or not, would have the merit of being honorable ; but the attempt
to import a new provision,—one never before hinted at,—into the Railway
Land Clause is, to say the least, highly discreditable ; and certainly is most
unworthy in one who undoubtedly knows better.
To understand this question thoroughly, it is necessary to know the
origin of the Railway Land clause of the Term I of Union.
On reference to pages 1 and 11, it will be noticed that British Columbia
proposed that her population for financial purposes be estimated at 120,000 ;
" but finally agreed to accept the basis of the actual population, namely,
60,000." On this basis the subsidies stood (see page 2) as follows :
5 per cent on difference between actual and
allowed debt   $ 33,289 71
60,000 inhabitants @.  80c. per head . 48,000 00
Annual subsidy  35,000 00
Total   $116,289 71
This total was nearly $100,000 less than the Legislature of British
Columbia had authorized the Delegates to accept. Unless that sum could
be made up in some way, it was useless to continue the negotiations. As
no expedient was at hand to make good the deficiency, the negotiations were
adjourned till next day. Next morning, Sir Geo. Cartier entered the Privy
Council Chamber and stated that Parliament had offered Newfoundland,
$150,000 a year for ever for all her Crown Lands, and that he proposed to giv6
British Columbia, $100,000 a year for ever for a belt of land not exceeding
20 miles in widlh on each side of the Railway. This was promptly accepted ;
and Mr. Tiutch immediately drew up the Railway Land Clause, Any one'who will carefully examine the Railway Land Clause on page
3, and recollect that Mr. Trutch drew it up, cannot but feel fully convinced
that so well drawn a clause would have contained a provision providing
for the selection of land " suitable for farming or other valuable purposes"
'in lieu of lands, within the Railway Land belt that, "on investigation,"
might be found valueless, if such subject had been discussed between Sir
Geo. Cartier and himself.
It will be seen, on page 4, that when Mr. Trutch moved, in the Legislative Council the adoption of the Terms of Union, he said that " he could
not do better now than pass them in review and comment upon their
relative advantages." He stated that the nominal population of 120,000
| was objected to by the Canadian Government, and was fixed at 60,000 as
" the basis of the financial portion of the terms," and that " The Railway
| subsidy was in return for a belt of land 20 miles on each side of the line of
" the road." Not a word is mentioned about selecting good land any where
throughout the Province for what might be found valueless in the belt. So
the Railway Land Clause was accepted by the Legislative Council without
inquiry and interpreted according to the true intent and meaning of words
and sentences, although Mr. Trutch stated (page 4) that " the Delegates
" were present to explain the exact meaning of every clause as they under-
I stood it at the time of the making of the Terms."
The mountainous and sterile character of a large part of the Province
was well known to the Delegates, and to Mr. Trutch in particular; for he
carried with iiim to Ottawa a copy of a map of the Province generally
known as " Trutch's Map," intended for publication, which represented the
country'generally as a "Sea of Mountains," and which was taken to the
photographer of the Public Works Department to be copied. The Dominion
Government cannot, then, plead ignorance of the rough and mountainous
character of the country.
It may be asked, why did the Railway Land Clause prohibit the
Provincial Government from selling any land within the Province
during two years from the date of the Union, and why was it only allowed
to permit pre-emptions ? The reason why they were not allowed to sell
within those two years was due to the fact that the line of Railway had
not been located, two years being allowed within which to make surveys
and locate it, and during that time it would have been unfair to the Domi-
J nion to sell lands that in common fairness ought to inure to its benefit.
Pre-emptions were allowed so as not to stop the actual settlement of the
country. If the line had been located in 1873 on the adopted route, some
hundreds of thousands acres of good land within the belt would have passed
to the Dominion that are now in private hands.
It will be observed that th; Railway Land Clause says nothing about
the quality of the land, whether valuable for farming land or any other
useful purpose. It simply speaks of quantity ; and whatever quantity had
been alienated under Crown Grant or Pre-emption was to be made good
from contiguous lands,—not from lands selected anywhere or everywhere
throughout the Province.
The fact is the Dominion did not want the lands. It was only an
excuse to give the Province a subsidy sufficient to carry on its government
and make internal improvements,—on the same principle as the $150,000
had been offered to Newfoundland. Mr. Anglin (page 16) stated that " the
Minister of Customs had admitted that it was only an excuse to give the
money, and that the lands were not wanted." Any contention, therefore,
at this late day, about the quality of the land in the Railway belt, is most
mischievous.
Sir Alex. Campbell, when he moved in the Senate, the adoption of the
address for the admission of British Columbia stated very frankly the views
of the Government- as to the value of the Railway lands as a source of
revenue. He-said (page 9) " It will be remembered that, in the case of Newfoundland, we agreed to give her $150,000 per annum for land for ever. It
toas not believed in that case, NOR IS IT IN THIS, that the land would yield any
revenue equal to that sum; bat it was valuable in some respects ; and it was
felt necessary to assist Newfoundland beyond the 80 cents per head of her
population."
This statement alone, taken as a governmental utterance, and as an
expression of the views of the Dominion Government as to the value of the
Railway Lands at that time, ought, in itself, to quiet forever all contention
about the quality of the land in the Railway Land belt.
Reference to and careful examination of the two Statutes of British
Columbia in the Appendix establish, beyond controversy, that the Provincial
Government has kept faith with the Dominion, and conveyed to it by Vll
Statute every foot of land it is entitled to for Railway purposes ; and,
speaking on my own personal responsibility, stands ready to make good
from contiguous lands an area equal to what the Province has alienated by
Crown Grant and Pre-emption.
A. DECOSMOS.
Ottawa, November 20,1880.
J  FINANCIAL TEEMS PBOPOSED BY BEITISH COLUMBIA IN 1870; AND
FINANCIAL TEEMS AGBEED TO BY CANADA AND BEITISH
COLUMBIA. 1670.
7rom Commons' Sessional JBajer, No. 18,  Vol. 4, No. 4, 1871.
Terms proposed bt British Columbia to Canada in 1870.
Sec. 2.—"The population of British Columbia shall, for the purpose oi' financial
" arrangements, be estimated at 120,000. British Columbia not having incurred debts
" cqi al to those of the other Provinces of the Dominion, shall bo entitled to receive
" hali-\ early, in advance, from the General Government, interest at the rate of five
" per centum, per annum, on the difference between the actual amount of its indebt-
" edness at the date of Union, and the proportion of the public debt of Canada for
" 120,000 of the population of Canada at the time of Union."
Seo. 3.—" The following sums shall be annually paid by Canada to British
" Columbia, for the support of the local Government and Legislature, to wit:
" An annual grant of $35,000, and a further sum, equal to 80 cents per head, per
" annum, of the population ; both payable half-yearly in advance, the population of
" British Columbia being estimated as aforesaid at 120,000. Such grant equal to 80
" cents per head, to bo augmented in proportion to increase of population, when such
" may bo shown, until the population amounts to 400,000, at which rate such grant
" shall thereafter romain."
(Amendments proposed by the Legislative Council: "That the Governor be re-
" spectrally requested, to strik > out the figures $.i5,000 and insert in lieu thereof
$75,000.)    (" That figures "40J,000 " be altered to " 1,000,000.")
Subsidies by Dominion Government
From Commons' Sessional Papers, J$o. IS.    Vol. 4.   No. 4, 1871.
(Page 9.)
As proposed by terms submitted to Canada, 1870.
80 cents per head on 120,000 inhabitants     $96 000
Subsidy         S5.0U0
Interest on difference of debt at 5 per cent       82;006
$213,000 r
(Pag03 10 and 11).
Debt agreed upon at Ottawa, 1st July, 1870.
-'   Commons'-Sessional Paper, No. 18.   Vol. 4.   No. 4.   1871.
Sect. 2.-60,000 population at $27.77 per capita.... *$l,666,200 00
" Actual debt **1,000,405 66
Balance  1872.    Commons' Sessional Paper No. 2,
Part 4, B.C., Debt Account      $665,794 34
Dominion Subsidies under Terms of Union.
(Page 10, 11 and 12 Scss. Pap. No. 18.)
Sect. 2.-5 per cent on $665,794.34 at 5 per cent  $33,289 71
Sect. 3.—60,000 inhabitants at 80 cts  4<i,000 00
"          Annual subsidy  35,000 00
Sect. 11.—$100,000 per annum for Eailway lands  100,000 00
Total subsidy to B. C  $216,289 71
From Mr. Trutch's Speech, reported in " Colonist," 1871.
Financial terms :
60,000 population at 80 cts  $ 48,000
Annual  subsidy  3i,000
Difference in debt at 5 per cent  29,908
Annual allowance for railway lands '  100,000
Total subsidy   $212,9u8
• Proposed terms o' B.O. were that B.O. be allowed 6 per cent on difference between Allowed
debt and the proportion of the public debt of Canada for 120,000, estimated at $82,000 for subsidy on
allowei debt. '
•* $1,000,405.03.    Stuional Papers, B.C., 1873-74, page 59. DEBATE IN LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL OF EE1TISH COLUMBIA ON
ADMISSION OF THAT PEOVINCE INTO UNION.
From British   Coknist Report.
Subject : Bail way Lands.
Section 11, clause 2.
" And fho Government of British Columbia agree to convey to the Dominion
*' Government, in trust, to be appropriated in such manner as the Dominion Govern-
*' ment may deem advisable in furtherance of the construction of the said railway, a
•" similar extent of public lands, along the line cf railway throughout its entire longth
" in British Columbia, not to exceed, however, twenty (20) miles on each side of said
" line, as may bo appropriated for the same by the Dominion Government from the
*' public lands in the North West Territories and the Province of Manitoba.
" Provided that * the quantity cf land which may be held under pre-emption
" or by Crown Grant within the limits of the tract of land in British
" Columbia to bo eo conveyed to the Dominion Government shaU be made good to the
" Dominion from contiguous public lands; and, provided further, that until the
" commencement, within two years, as aforesaid, from the date of Union, of the
" construction of the said railway, tho Government of British Columbia shall not sell
" or alienate any further portions of the public lands of British Columbia in any other
" way, than under right of pre-emption, requiring actual residence of tho pre-eraptor
" on tho land claimed by Mm. In consideration of the land 60 conveyed in aid of the
*' construction of the said railway the Dominion Government agree to pay to British
" Columbia from the dale of Union, the sum of 100,000 dollars per annum, in half-
" yearly payments in advance."
British Colonist, January 19, 1871.
'Extract from leader:
•' Our Legislature, yesterday, presented a strange study. Just think of it I A
•" Legislature created, we might say, for tho express purpose of deciding the great
" question of Confederation, giving a unanimous vote in silence, save only what was
■" said by the mover and seconder! "
SPEECH OF Mr. TEUTCH AXD OTHEES ON ADOPTION OF TEEMS
OF UNION.
.Legislative Council, January 18, 1871.—Colonist report published January 19, 1871.
" Hon. Chief Commissioner in, rising to move the Orders of the day, said it
devolved on him,'as ono of tho Delegates, appointed by tho Governor to negotiate
Xoihing taid uf quality,
li Columbia, and we
Columbia had onlv
' the terms of Union with Canada, to now lay before the Council for consideration
' and adoption the terms agreed to by the Government of the Dominion of Canada
* * * * % * *
I He looked in vain for any reasonable ground of objection to the Terms and
' could find none. They differed in some respects from those passed hy the Council
' last year, and he could not do better now than pass them in review and comment upon
' their relative advantages. The financial scheme differed very materially to the
1 advantage of this colony. The population was, last year, set at tho nominal
' amount of 120,000 persons, the reason for which was stated to this House. This
' nominal population, however, was objected to by the Canadian Government, and waB fixed
' at 60,000 as the basis of tho financial portion of the terms. This, counting Indians
' and all, was about the true population of the colony. The Dominion Government
' will take of our revenue $363,500, leaving to be disposed of by the local goyern-
• ment $170,450. From the Dominion, we receive SO cts per head on 60,000 inha-
' bitants ($48,000), an annual subsidy of $35,000 ; interest on difference of debt at
' 5 per cent $29,908, and railroad land annual allowance $100,000, making a total of
' $i 12,908. The railway subsidy was in return for a belt of land 20 miles on
each side of the line of the road.
" To the total subsidy add $170,«50 revenue left to British
had a grand total of $383,358. Out of this latter sum, British
to provide $236,073 for Local Government. This was based upon the Estimates
I of this year. We had, therefore, a balance of $147,285, at tho disposal of the Local
' Government, all the services being provided for which aro estimated for the
' current year. According to the scheme of last year, the balance in favor of the
' Local Government was $151,050; but during the present fiscal year, the revenue
1 has decreased, and the financial basis started with the population at 60,000 instead
'of at $120,000."
"The Delegates had more trouble with the Graving Dook item than with all
' othor clauses put together."
* * * * * *        '  # * * *
' In the railway Clause, the Colony does not got any coach road-; but they get
' a speedier completion of the railroad than was suggested last year, and are
' offered $100,0'IO for ever, for a certain belt of land along the bailroad to
' BE HELD IN TRUST BY THE CANADIAN GOVERNMENT."
**********
'The Government would lay before the Council the form of an Address, which
' would be open to amendment, and the delegates were present to explain the exact
'meaning of every clause as they understood it at the time of making the terms."
" Hon. Dr. Helmeken seconded tho resolution of the hon. Chief Commissioner
' to go into Committee." ******
" The motion to go into Committee was then passed unanimously, and the
' Council resolved itself into Committee of the Whole, Mr. Pemberton in the chair."
" The Committee took up consideration of the Address and Terms, which are as
' follows :—
" To the Queen's Most Excellent Majesty: "
**********
" Clauses 1,2, 3, 4, 5, and 6 were passed unanimously.
" At clauso 7, Mr. Nathan said that he was prepared to support the immediate
" acceptance of the Canadian tariff and would therefore move that consideration of
*'■ this clause be deferred.
•'Hon. Chief Commissioner said it was not necessary at this time to movo the
" adoption of the Canadian Tariff,—it could bo done at anv future time—sav on
" Monday." J J
"Mr. Nathan accepted the view of tho hon. Chief Commissioner, and clause 7
<f was then passed." " At clause 10, Mr. Bunstor moved that tho word Nanaimo be added instead of
■" Esquimalt, as Nanaimo was the place at which a dry dock should bo built.
" Mr. Nathan expressed an intention of moving an address to the Governor asking
•" for an extended guarantee for the Dock.
" Mr. Bunster pressed his amendment (laughter). Hon. gentlemen might.laugh,
■" but if they only know the advantages Nanaimo had, they wouldn't laugh. (Ee-
■" newcd morriment.)
" The clause passed, Mr. Bunster dissonting.
" The remaining clauses were then passed unanimously and amid much applause."
*********
" The Committee rose and reported progress, and' asked leave to sit again."
AMENDMENTS EESPECTING EAILWAY LANDS.
Extracts from Journals of Commons, 1871.
Pages 162-3.   March 30.
" Mr. Eoss (Dundas) moved in amendment thoreto, seconded by Mr. Jones
" (Leeds and Grenville), " That the words * * * * " The said terms also pledge
u the government to a yearly payment to British Columbia of tho sum of $100,000
" in perpetuity, equal to a capital of $2,000,000 for the cession of a tract of waste
" .land on the route of the Pacific Eailway to aid in its construction, which British
" Columbia ought to cede without charge in like manner, as the lands of Canada are
■" proposed to be ceded for the same purpose." ******
Motion lost 75 to 80.
Page 153.    28th March.
Mr. Mackenzie had tho above clause in his motion of 28th March.
Page 192. March 31.
" Mr. Blake moved in amendment, seconded by the Hon. Mr. Smith, (West-
"moreland). That all tho words after "That" to the end of the question bo left
" out, and the words " the proposed terms of Union with British Columbia provide
" for the payment by the Dominion to British Columbia of a yearly sum of $100,000
" in perpetuity (equal to a capital sum of $2,000,000) for the cession of a tract of
1 waste land on tho route of tho proposed Pacific Eailway to aid in its construction,
1 while any such land required for that purpose should bo ceded without charge in
" like manner as the lands of the Dominion are to bo ceded, and that the said resolu-
" tions be recommitted for the purpose of amending the same in accordance with
" this resolution," inserted instead thereof: "
Not*—This amendment was lo3t.   59 to 8t- PAELIAMENTAEY DEBATES  ON ADMISSION OF BEITISH  COLUMBIA,.
1871.
Extracts from Debates published at Ottawa Times Office.
.Page 661, Ottawa, March 28, 1671.
I Sir Geo. E. Cartier—* * *  » The   delegates   of   British
This change was« Columbia wished to have tho subsidy placed at 80e. per head for
$ioo,ooroRsubsWy for "» population of 120,000; but on being informed that it would be
Railway land belt.   " impossible to obtain the assent of Parliament to such terms, they
" allowed the population to bo put at 60,000
********
" While this clause wis under discussion between the delegates and the Government, it was-
" proposed by the Dominion that the colony should hand over a forty mile strip of
" land towards the construction of the railway. That would be 2*,000 square' miles of
" land, or 50,360.000 acres of land, not merely agricultural land, but mineral
" land. Placing that lsnd at $1 per acre, it would be equal to a grant of $50,360,000'
" towards the construction of the railway. It was proposed to give the colony
" $100,000 per annum, which, placing the interest at 5 per cent., would be the-
"Jannual interest on 2,000,0j0 acres of land, leaving the remainder to be used hy
" this Government."
Page 665.
" Sir A. T. Galt * * * " The result was the colony would receive $150,000 to
" $170,000 a.year from Canada for Union, including a trade guarantee for the works
" at Esquimalt. lie would not.objoct to that price for political union; and did not
" think it too great an equivalent for valuable lands exacted from the colony for the
" railway."
* * * * * * ***
" Hon. Mr. Tilley.—* * *. " He entirely agreed with his hon. friend (Gait)
" that it was impossible to take large Provinces into the Dominion with a small
See Gait's Speech. " population, acquire all their lands without giving them in return
It only refers to " the means of carrying out the local works necessary to make the
railway lands. « country attractive to'immigrauts, and how could it be expected that
" the people of this large Province, twice the size of Ontario, would be in a position
'Gov't    proposal   to " T0   DEVELOP  THE RESOURCES OF  THEIR COUNTRY   WITHOUT ASSIST-
give $100,000 for " ance,—and that assistance was what the Government proposed to
merely7 toeive Pro- " rehder in the Proposition before the Bouse. The member for Sherbrooke
vince enough to car- " had said that he would have preferred that the Government should
ry on local works. " have come down and asked a direct vote for that purpose ; but he
" would remind the hon. member that he had not been in favor of that mode, when
" it was proposed with reference to Newfoundland.  * * * * *
After recess.   Pages 669 and 670.
| Hon Mr. Tilley resumed the debate. He had been pointing out the difference
" between the proposition of British Columbia, and that adopted ultimately, which
" he regarded as the more favorable to the Dominion. * * * *
" The expense for local works would hardly amount to as much as tho hon. member
I for Sherbrooke estimated they would.   Excluding the annual sum of $100,000 for " the land grant and tho expenses of tho Government, these charges would amount to.
" a total of $36J.,000. The revenue amounted to $363,400, which, of course, would'
§ largely increase in the future. Tho difference therefore was not so great after all.
"Even supposing that the Local Government should accept our lower tariff, the
" revenue would reach $308,000. The $100,000 was, therefore, the amount of expenditure
& m excess of receipts, and for this the Government received a large grant of valuable land.
" Now the question was is the union of the Colony worth tho cost."
Pages:'672, 673.
" Hon. Mr. Mackenzie.—* * * Ho would consent to a considerable grant
" of money to carry on tho Government of a new Colony, and particularly of such a
" difficult country as Columbia, and ho would not show himself less liberal than any
" other member of the House in considering what ought to he done in the present
The objection of Mr. " case. In the discussion in reference to Newfoundland, he preferred'
oveVt^wrnotto'the " al,owin(! a sum to carrH on ihe Government, rather thm take over
payment of $iop,ooo a " the public lands, as while the revenue was $3,000 per annum,
year. " the cost of management was $6,000,—and he took the same view
" with regard to the land grant for the construction of the railway to the Pacific.
'• From all he knew of the country, after descending from the Eocky Mountains,
" the country was valueless for agricultural purposes. Tho gold mines have certainly
" proved to bo very remunerative, but they are carried on by large companies, and
" the large importations of breadstuff's into the colony corroborated the barrenness of
" the land."" * * * * * * * * *
' * * " The said terms also pledge tho Government
" of Canada to a yearly payment to British Columbia of the sum of $100,000 in
" perpetuity, equal to a capital sum of $2,000,000 for the cession of a tract.ot wasto-
" land of the route of the Pacific Eailway to aid in its construction, which British
| Columbia ought to cede without charge, in like manner as tho lands of Canada aro
" proposed to be ceded for the same purpose." ******
Page 714, Ottawa, March 30,1871.
" Hon. Mr. Morris * * * "He asked tho House seriously the nature and
" character of the land proposed to be acquired. The land consisted of the United
" Province of British Columbia and "Vancouver Island ; and no one could deny would
" increase, enormously the wealth, the resources, and the prosperity of the Dominion."
I He had several extracts from works on the country, showing its valuable nature
" and character, and thought the member for Lambton was vot justified in the remarks
" he had used to the effect of there being scarcely any arable land in the ichole of British
| Columbia."
" Mr. Mackenzie stated that what ho said was that after descending the slopes of
" the Hocky Mountains, the country was the roughest on the continent."^
" Hon. Mr. M< RRLs, thought the construction he had put on the hon. member's
" remarks was.not very far wrong ; but he could state on tho indisputable authority.
" of Mr. Trutch, the Surveyer General of British Columbia, that taking tho whole
" of Brili-h Columbia and Vancouver's Island, fully one-third or .50,00:1,000 of acres
" was good farming land, while the whole acroago of Ontario was 77,000,000 acres.!'
Page 717.
Mr. Oliver resumed the Debate
" It was manifestly unfair to give $100,000 per year for lands which had not yet been
" proved to be worth anything.   Ttie  assumption of these lands by the Dominion " would entail additional expense on the general government. It would be much
" better to leave them in the hands of tho local Government who coulcLmanage them
" bettor than the administration at Ottawa." * * * *
Page 718.
" Hon. Mr. AngLin * * * Ho disapproved of th« unfair Parliamentary
" representation, giving six members to 13,000 people; to pensioning officers, and to
" the payment of $100,000 per annum to sustain a corruptand extravagant Government ;
" given too, under the pretence that it was rent for pubiic Kinds. Let the House know
" all the meaning of these terms * * * * *
" At the Rooky Mountains, fresh difficulties were to be met, and the British Colohwst, a
" paper published at Victoria, V. I., favorable to Confederation, spoke of the route
" through which it was proposed to run the railway as ' a sea of mountains.' If this
" account were correct, it would be difficult to find those vast tracts of fertile country.
" spoken of by hon. members opposite, and it could be no easy matter to run a railway
'^thtfOugh it. With this much known, this House should be enabled to understand
" how much of a burden thoy wore expected to bear, before they were asked to
" vote for this measure." *******
Page 720.
" Whore was- the population"to come from ?   When it was well known that the
" population of British Columbia had materially decreased of late years! It Gould
" only be explained by the fact that the country was not inviting to settlers     * *     *
Page 726.
Hon. Mr. McDougall.—* * * « Through and beyond the Eocky Mountains,
" the country was of a nature most difficult for a railway and most discouraging as regards
" the prospects of settlement and traffic."       ******
Page 744.    March 31,1871.
" Hox. Mr. Mackenzie said that in the spoec-h of the hon.-Minister of Militia,
" the statement had been made that one third of the land in British Columbia was fit
" for agriculture But it was admitted that this statement embraced the Island of
" Vancouver. Now, in dealing icith this question, the Island must not be taken into
" consideration at all. From all the evidence he could obtain respecting the mainland,
" not one fifth of it was available for sattle-nent by farmers, and the remaining four fifths
" through which the road was likely to run, had yet to be proved good for mining purposes.
" It was simply absurd to put tho price of that land at $1 per acre.        *       *       *•
Pages 748-74 9.
" 8m Geo. E. Cartier.—*    *    *    V,>-.- tho sako of the member for Lambton
" himself, ho trusted his speech would not bo reported, and especially that part in " which he had spoken of the character of the. land in the most disadvantageous
" terms ; and yet ho .said ho was-in favor of building the railway as soon as possible.
" If the land was as described by the hon. member, why should a railway be built at
" all. * * * * * * * *
Page 749.
'•The  horn members opposite had been  sufficiently unpatriotic to represent the
'' country as that it would never attract immigration, and he quoted from the pro-
'' ceedings of the House of Representatives of the State of Minnesota, speaking of the
" Canadian line as practicable, and the territories of the North West and British
" Columbia as the most fertile on the continent.     *****
" Mr. Mackenzie denied that he had done anything to decry the country."
" Hon. Sir Geo. E. Cartikr was glad he had given the hon. member an oppor-
" tunity to correct himself.   He quoted an article from an American paper, copied
" into the Globe, characterising the Saskatchewan country as most valuable in soil
" and minerals, and British Columbia as possessing rich mineral res-
8tate:nen°.PapBrS    " S°urces> magnificent climate and fine soil.  It was lorlunate the truth
" could be ascertained, even if it came from opponents."
* * * * ' *p   ' * * *
Page 755.
M. Blake moved in amendment.
(See also Journal of Commons, page 193, March 31, 18T1.)
Ottawa, April 1, 1871.
Address carried.
DEBATES IN SENATE ON ADMISSION OF BRITISH COLUMBIA.
Senate, April 3, 1871.
Pago 776.
" Hon. Mr. Campbell,   *   *   *    *   Now I come to that item which provides
" that Dominion government agree to pay British Columbia the sum of $100,0u0, in
" consideration of the land alongside the railway.   It will be remembered that, in
" case of Newfoundland, we agreed to give her $150,00 J per annum
.See Senate Debates, "for land, for ever. It was not believed in tuat case, NOR IS IT
1869, page 143.        " in this, that the land would yield any revenue equal to that sum; but
" it was valuable in many respects, and it wasfei.t necessary to
" assist Newfoundland beyond the 80 cents per head of population.
*** * * * **
Page 776.
Hon. Mr. Campbell.—" It must be remembored that in making an- arrangement
" with a country like this, sparsely populated and with large boundaries, provision 10
" must be made for internal development, and in any union we must make it satisfactory to
" the people of that country as well as ourselves    Looking, thereforo, atvtho whole state
| of the case, there would only remain to British Columbia $lu0,0C0,
$100,000 for internal   1 WDjcn we pr0pose to give to her for the land she agrees to cede to
improvements.     «the Dominion on the line of railway.    Surely that cannot be
"considered an unreasonable arrangement; in fact, I h„ive not heard any one say so."
" In Ontario, it is expected that alternate sections of 20 miles will be given for
" the construction of the ro:id, whereas British Columbia gives a continuous grant of 20
'•' miles on each side.    Therefore the quantity of land given by that colony is twofold.
| Therefore tho item respecting the land can be defended successfully with respect to the
" necessities and requirements of the country, and in a lesser degree,
Necessity to give   u DV the cession of the land itself which the Dominion is to receive."
B. O. revenue. J
Page. 793.
" Hon. Mr. Miller * * * British Columbia including Vancouver Island, as
"they were well aware, was the most western dependency of England on this con-
"tinent. * * * The country, although in many parts broken and uneven, contains
". much valuable agricultural land, equal to the support of a great population. * 1
" British Columbia is known to contain coal formations ot immense extent. * * *
"Then copper abounded in tho colony, and also magnetic iron ore, marble, limestone,
" sandstone,.&c.   Its gold fields had a world-wide reputation.
Page 796.
«V*.
" Hon. Mr. Miller        *  ■ < ■   * * The financial arrangements had
" doubtless been settled.e-n accurate information and a full investigation of the wants and
" circumstances of the Colony."
Pago 809.
"Hon. Mr. Sandborn, * .* * Whilst tho government
' undertake to incur so enormous an expenditure in conneetioli.with the railway, they
' agree to pay $100,000 yearly in consideration of the land, advanced for the construction
' of that work. How the government could ever entertained a proposition of that
1 character I cannot understand. If B"itish Columbia has any interest in having
'this road built and uniting with Canada, surely she ought to be willing to give up
'so much of her territory as will be necessary Tor the purpose of securing communi-
' cation between them and us. Tho more I consider the financial features of the
'scheme, as respects the railway, the moro I see their unfairness, and am convinced
' of my duty to oppose them." * * *   .       * * *
Page 810.
" Hon. Mr. McPherson * * * Now, with respect to the-
"financial features of the scheme, every one must admit that it is absolutely necessary-
" that British Columbia should have the ability to support her local government ami of
" meeting her local requirements. The Dominion agrees to pay an annual subsidy of
"$35,000, as in the cases of the other Provinces; also, 80 cents per head, equivalent
"to $48,000; these sums amount to only $83,000, which is evidently altogether inade-
■r        f   «mnnnn " 1uafe to meet the local wants of this Colony.   Therefore it was
subsidy. "found necessary to supplement that amount by $100,000—no very
" extravagant sum certainly.
" If instead of $35,000, it had been shown that $135,000 was required by British
" Columbia in order to maintain her Provincial services, and make such local
" improvements as she would require, this country could not. have objected to give it,
" and that too without an equivalent in the shape of land.    Instead of that, however, the 11
" Government of tho Dominion has stipulated that a strip of land, 40 miles wide,
" should be given along thfe route of the proposed railway, in British Columbia.   If
<fe+l*A ;.,f*.,,.™m;^., mAi,.,n. ;« „*■ ..11 «v«,At    ,u...   i„„.i *- u«AA«.A „i..„i.i„ :„
kthe information w
If
re have is at all correct, that land must become very valuable in •
the courso of time, and I think the country has every reason to bo satisfied with
this part of the arrangement. ******
Pages 811 and 815.
" Hon. M. Dever:—In answer to the remarks of somo of tho Opposition as to
' tho value of the possessions in question, no better answer could bo given than the
' fallowing statement taken from the Now-York Tribune of a late date.   Speaking of
' the rossources of British Amei ica, the New York Tribune said :       * * *
' Beyond the Eocky Mountains is British Columbia, abounding with gold, and
' containing the best and most abundant coal mines yet found on the Pacific Slope.
' It has a superior soil, a magnificent climate, and an abundance of fish. That
' colony is in every respect in " natural superiority " fully on a par with California,.
' and Oregon, and the Territory of Washington."
Page 836, April 4, 1871.
" Hon. Mr. Dickey.— * * * What tho county may bo over the
' steppes of British Columbia, I cannot say, nor can ho. * * *
' Referring to speech
of Mr. M cflierson-
Referring  to Mr.
LeTellier.
Page 840.
" Hon. Mr, Chapais. * * * British Columbia has not dictated
the terms and conditions of her Union with Canada, as that hon.
member was pleased to say yesterday; but we have objected to and
amended the terms proposed by her and the changes, have been accepted
by her delegates. * * * *
Pago 844.
" British Columbia has agreed to grant fifteen million acres of
Yet he did   not''an^ alonq the route, and these will be sufficient or nearly so for
know  where   the   " the construction of their part of tho road.    Immigration will settle
road was to go 1!   " along the road, and thus it will prove a lasting benefit to British
" Columbia and Canada.
* * * * *   . * * *
Page 846.
" The distance from Fort Garry to the Eocky Mountains 1,125 miles, is of an-
" easj character, and the 600 miles following through the sea of mountains (as it has
" been called) its difficult; but much less so on our side than on the American Ter-
" ritory, where the two lines are being constructed. * * * *
Page 817.
" As for the climate and nature of the soil in British Columbia, I can prove, that
" they arc most favorable to colonization. * * Because the Eocky Mountains
" intervene between Canada and British Columbia, it must not. be inferred that the
" whole colonj' is of the same character as those Mountains and is unfit for coloniza-
" tion purposes. When, for instance, a traveller visits the Saguenaj river, and looks
" at its high rocky' walls, he cannot conceive that the country behind is of such a
" splendid character as it has proved to be round Lake St. John and elsewhere. Well,
." it is the same with British Columbia, and the Territories north of Lake Superior, 12
■" for the whole length of the road,—and I have proved that once the Eocky Mountains
" are passed, the country is as favorable as any part of Canada, with respejt to climate,
| soil, timber. &c."       * * * * * * * *
Page 856.
" Hon. Mr. Seymour * * * * As respects the amount of money which is to be
•" handed over to British Columbia, I refer to tho $100,000 a year in perspective, it
1 really amounts to a capital of two millions of dollars, for the purchase of lands of
" which we know nothing, and of which there has been no survey or exploration. We are
■" certainly proceeding in the dark. So far as we know only a small portion of tho
" lands of British Columbia are fit for tho purposes of cultivation. Already free
" grants of land have been offered, but the country nevertheless is not settled. The
" truth is that you cannot form settlements because there is a small proportion of
" lands fit for cultivation. Even admitting that one third is fit for cultivation, any
" person who knows anything about the land is aware that thoy are not accessible.
" We may literally handover the sum of$100,000, for a worthless purchase. * * If you
" could not derive a revenue from the fertile lands of Ontario, how can you expect to
" do so from this miserablo region of the west ? (Hear) * * * Those who talk
u about settling this western country are hardly awake to what they are saying.
u Some years ago there was a great rush to the country to prospect for gold and
M minerals; but all that excitement has died away, and mining is now pursued only
" to a small extent."
Pages 862-867.
" Hon. Mr. Wark * * * Instead of giving the people of British Columbia the
■" $100,000,1 would capitalize it, and that would probably givo them $2,000,000 ,to
" spend in improving theii* communications. *****
" Not only would I grant them a sufficient representation, but I Would give them
" ALL THE NECESSARY REVENUE FOR THEIR LOCAL   REQUIREMENTS  ;    but   tO    bind   the
" Dominion to construct the Eailway within 10 years at whatever cost, is promising
" too much.   ** * *'* * * *
I In British Columbia, the Cascades on the Pacific Coast, the Gold, the Selkirk,
" and the Eocky Mountains, and in addition to these particular ranges, there are
" considerable portions of very rugged country, through which the road will pass.
* * * * * * * * *
Page 872.
" Hon. P. Mitchell *   *   * * Eg He further states that a very large portion of
Referring to Sanborn" the territory in British Columbia is unfit for- settlement; "    *    *
t ReF"s to Wad- | That gentleman (f) further states that 213  miles of tho land
▼er^was ioo "miles   " through which it passes is of good quality and fit for settlement,
in the interior. " and a considerable portion of it is above the average of settlement
',' land, in Canada."    * * * * * * *
Pages 875 and 876.
" It is important in considering the ability of Canada to carry out her engago-
" mont to look at the character of tho land, through which the railway runs.   I have
% Waddington,     " already stated the opinion of an (|) engineer of standing in refer-
was no engineer.    " ence to those in British Columbia, and in confirmation   thereof I
" will quote from  a paper  read   before  tho   Royal  Geographical
* Bute route. See   " Society of London in  1869,  a description  of that  (*)  country
Journals of Geog.   " through wnich it is proposed that the railway shall run, that for
fageetri26-6.   1868   " d0° miles in len§ta [t runs> through " a rich plateau of mltivable
Waddington. " soil generally heavily timbered, and capable of producing any 13
" kind of crops." In reference to this plateau, it is state 1 that it con tains millions of
" tic res of good ground where large tracts of land are sure to be taken up as soon as
" the first communications are established. The writer further observes " that the
" Indian horses pass the winter oat of doors without fodder or stabling, tho best
" proof that the winters are not very severe;" and while spooking of a portion of the
" country as rough, clearly indicates its fertile character, and adaptability for cul-
~" tivationimd grazing."     ********
April 5.   Pago 906.
"Hon. Mr. Christie—*   *   *   $100,000 for payment of land,"   *    *   *
"This, added to the $97,800 before mentioned gives the colony $144,800, and reprc-
" Fonts the annual cost to tho Dominion, Over revenue, including the payment for
land.
Page 907.
" West of this to the Pacific, tho country is almost worthless for agricultural
" purposes,—there is a good deal of mineral wealth, some valuable fisheries, but no
" farming lands. In conversation with my friend, the hon. Malcolm Cameron, I was
" informed by that gentleman that his own observation and all tho information be
" could gather during a.visit to that country.in 1862, had led him to the conclusion
" that only very small proportions of Britie-h Columbia could be made available for
"agricultural purposes. In tho small intorsticial valleys, there was fertile lands;
" but the quantity was vory inconsiderable and even those valleys wore liable to
" inundation by the June torrents. The uplands were poor and rocky. The prairie
" portions were covered by a grass well-known to the Western men as " bunch grass; "
" unfiijfor pasture, and indicating a poor sterile Eoil. Mr. Cameron only saw two
" good farms in the whole country; they were on Vancouver Island, and had been
" made good by a large expenditure of money. On his roturn to Canada, Mr.
" Cameron gave a fair statement of the country and its resources, for which he wa3
" assailed in strong terms in'a. letter, signed by some forty persons from Canada, who
" had emigrated to British Columbia. They declared that Mr. Cameron's statements
" were calculated to mislead Canadians, and wore altogether too favotable to the
" country, which was unfit for agricultural purposes. The letter in question will be
" found in'the Globe of the 18th February, 1863. It is signed by persons from many
" parts of Canada, and many of them well known to some ol my colleagues, as
" persons of respectability and industrious habits, who went there as pioneers of
" civilisation,   it is evident that money, and money alone, must build this railway."
•^ 3^ *fC ^* *J» *|* *JC
Page 911.
" Hon. Mr. Botsfobd. * * * No one denies that British Columbia possesses
" many valuable resources,—that it has the finest coal on the Pacific coast—in itself a
" great element of wealth—that it has fishories which must be a very lucrative source
" of commerce,—that it has gold, to an extent of which even yet we cannot form an
" accurate idea, besides many other minerals. Whatthen is this great stumbling
" block ? "
Page 917.
" Hon. Mr. Odexl. * * * With all the information before me I do not see
" "that wo can derive much revenuofrom the resources of British Columbia. If we
" are to pay the expenses of their government, and everything connected with it,—
" if we are to baild this railway, why too aro we called upon to pay $100,000 for the
" right of way through the country which they ought to give freely.   The mode of
_JI 14
■" submitting the' measures—tho fictitious population, the disproportionate represen-
■" tation, five per cent on the indebtedness por head calculated on 60,000 instead of
" 10.000 in section 2, and the 100,000 for railway lands, are all objections, but minor
| objections that might be got over. Now I have come to the railway, the real
■"•stumbling block in this matter so called by the supporters of tho scheme.
DEBATE ON ADMISSION OF BRITISH COLUMBIA, 1871.
Toronto  Globe Report, March, 28, 1871, in Scrap^Book.   Lib. Parliament.    Pago  62
" Sir Geo. Cartier, moved that the House go into Committee to consider a
■" series of resolutions respecting the admission of British Columbia into Union with
•"Canada. * *** * ****
" He might now say that the terms were the same with exceptions, which had
| been offered to Newfoundland and Prince Edward Island. * * *
" The representatives of British Columbia wished to have their population regarded
| as 120,000 on the ground that that number was what was indicated.by the consurap-
" tion of goods as compared with the consumption in Canada, But they finally agreed to
" accept the basis of the actual population, namely 60,000."
******-****
" The next point he would rofor to was that relating to the Pacific Eailway,
u which was as follows:—
"Tho Government of the Dominion u ri 'f'tnke to socuro the commencement
" simultaneously, within two years of the dato oi the Union, of tho construction of a
" railway from the Pacific towards tho Eocky Mountains, and from such point as
" may be selected oast of the Eocky Mountains towards the Pacific to connect tho
" seaboard of British Columbia with the Eailway system of Canada, and further to
" seoure the completion of such railway within ton years fiom the date of Union.
,. " And tho Government of British Co'umbia agree to convey to tho Dominion
,' Government, in trust, to be appropriated in such manner as the Dominion Govern-
'•' ment may deem advisable in furtherance of the con-1 fw tion of tho said Eailway, a
/similar extent of Public Lands along the JitK . \l> Iway throughout its entire
S length in British Columbia, not to exceed, howevor, twenty (20) miles on each side
,' of said line as may be appropriated for the same purpose by the Dominion 'iovcrn-
/ ment from tho Public Lands in tho North West Territories and the Province of
{' Manitoba; provided that the quantity of land which may be held under pre-emption
| right or by crown grant withiu the limits of the tract ol land in British Columbia
/ to be so convoyed to the Dominion Government, shall be made good to the Dominion
' from contiguous Public Lands ; and provided''further, that until the coramoncomont
/ within two years as aforesaid from the date ' Of tho Union of the construction of
4' the said Eailway, tho Government of British Columbia shall not sell.or alienate
| any further portions of the Public Lands of British Columbia in any othor way
| than under right of pre-emption, requiring actual residence of the prc-emptor on tho
1 land claimed by him. In consideration of the land to bo so conveyed iu aid of tho
' construction of the said Eailway. the Dominion Government agree to pay to B iti.-h
" Columbia from the date of the Union the sum of $100,000 per annum in half yearly
''payments in advance."
" Tho Government did not intend to build tho road themselves, but by means of
" companies that would have to bp assisted principally by grants of one dollar lands.
" (Hear, hear.)    The land which British Columbia would contribute for this purpose 15
was valued at one dollar an acre, which would amount to $15,360,000. For this
tho Government would undertake to pay $100,000 a year to British Columbia,
which was interest at 5 por cent on two million dollars. That was to say that in
the purchaso cf these two million acres, Government would be the gainer to the
extent of $13,360,000 with whish to assist the railway that would be undertaken.
The Government insisted upon that as a sine qua non condition.
" Tho land mast be under their control in order to aid tho railway."
********
" Mr. Mackenzie * * * In the discussion upon the admission of Newfoundland
last session, they were asked to vote $150,000 a year, in view of the disposal of
public lands to the Dominion.    He had stated that he preferred leaving the landsin the
hands of the Province, because they brought in a revenue of $3,000 a year, and cost for their
management $( ,000. He took the same groundnow with reference to the land grant to aid
the railway through British Columbia.    He believed these lands in that Province
were almost valueless, though he had to confess that he was about as ignorant on
that point as tho government themselves (laughter.)    But all the evidence they
had went to show that tho land west of the Eocky Mountains was of a rocky
character.    The Minister of Militia claimed that it was valuable for mining purposes;
but now-a-days large capital was necessary for the development of mineral wealth.
The very fact that there were, large imports for consumptiom indicated that the
land was not much good for farminq purposes.   He was bound therefore to look
upon the acquisition of that colony as simply a political necessity, which he
admitted was a somewhat urgent one."
********
Page 64.
" Mr. Mackenzie. Tho only valuable land available for that great purpose was
" from Winnipeg Eiver to the Eocky Mountains."
** * * * * * *
" West of the Rocky. Mountains, the country was very rough, and it would be
'• difficult to build a road over it."
********
' " Ho thought it was must unjust to lead the people of British Columbia to believe
" that we could complete that work within ten years, and he entered his protest
" against deluding theso people and leading this house astray in the matter of the
" railway."
******* *
"Mr. Masson:        *        *    British Columbia offered us moro than tho North-_
" West could offer us; for it had gold mines and coal fields."
* * * * * * * *■
" Mr. Young * * * The grant of a hundred thousand dollars on
" account of the lands for the Pacific was' objectionable. That amount capitalized at
"5 per cont, was equal to two million dollars, and brought to mind the proposition
" to give $150,000 per annum to the rocks, &c, of Newfoundland two years ago.
* * * *■* * * *
" Mr. Blake * * * It was an utterly vain expectation that the govern-
" ment would be able out of these lands whether the country was settled or not, to
" make any considerable sum of money."
:#* * * * * * *
* *...* * * * * *
" Mr. Bodwell     *    *    *     With regard to the proposed annual payment of
' $100,000/ r lawtsfrom British Columbia, that was a mere pretence."
" Mr  Oliver.—*   *     *     It had been proposed that thirteen million acres of
" land running alongside the railway should be appropriated.   If so,  these lands
' " woul I be a constant cause of expenditure for management and surveying.    (Hear,
" hear.)    It would be better that those lands should remain in tho hands of the local 16
" Government of British Columbia, otherwise they might pass into the hands of land
" speculators, a state of things which would prove ruinous to the settlement of tho
" country. If these lands were not locked up, they would be sufficient to support a
" population of two millions, and it would be better that a money bonus should be
'•' given and these lands opened up to the people for settlement."    *       *        *        *
Mr. Anglin.—* * * " Me contended that it was not open, or honest, or manly to
" give $100,000 for lands along the line of railway; for the Minister of Customs had
" admitted that it was only an excuse to give the money, and that the lands
" WERE not wanted."
" Ma. Mills.—An open confession."
" Sir Geo. E. Cartier.—A Catholic confession."
" Mr. Anglin.—A Catholic confession was an open and a full confession, and ho
" wished the Government would make such a one.    (Applause )    *       *       *       *
" Beyond the Rocky Mountains, the country was again hilly and rocky.   In reference to
" that point, he quoted from an article in the   Victoria Colonist to corroborate what
" the h'm. member for Lambton had said tho other night with respect to the sterile
" character of some parts of the route.   Ho (hon. M. Anglin) liked to be frank,  and
" would say that the article was written to support one railway scheme against a
" rival railway scheme.    Tho article spoka of the " Horrible Frazer Eiver Country,"
" the appalling character of the difficulties," " sterile mountains of enormous height,"
" from .vhich land slides perpetually in summer, and avalanches sweep down in
" winter, carrying all before them.   The cost of the railway in these defiles would
" be money thrown away, and a millstone on the neck of the Dominion.    These
" extracts of which he might read more, would serve to give some idea of the country.
" Now the question came up what must be tho cost of the railway through such a
" country as that ? The cost of forwarding supplies far into the interior to support
" the men engaged in the work must bo enormous, and the wages of the men would
" also be very large."
* * * * *
"SirF. Hincks * * "He only wished to show that there "were several points
.' conceded by British Columbia aad that to change the terms would re-open all these
<' points."
Ottawa, March 31, 1871.   Pago 71.
" Mr. Mackenzie : * * * " Ho expressed his surprise that the Minister of
" Inland Eevenue, with all the information he was able to obtain, was not able to say
" that more than one-third of British Columbia, even including Vancouver Island, was fit for
" agricultural purposes- He (Mr. Mackenzie) believed that in reality, not more thanone-
" fourth or one fifth was at all fit land for settlement. Ho riaiouled the argument of the
" hon. Minister of Militia that we would get 15,000,000 acres of land for $2,000,000;
"and thon get an available surplus, after using the land, $13,000,000, to be applied
""to extinguish the debt."
" He characterized the statement of the Minister of Inland Eevenue, yesterday, in holding out hopes to British Columbia, and then stating that Parliament was
" master of the-situation, as one of tho most immoral speeches he (Mr. Mackenzie)
" ever heard delivered in Parliament,    (dear, hear.)
Pago 72.
I Mr, Blake * * * " The man who would vote for the
" proposition with the secret intention not to sink tke last dollar if necessary to fulfil the
,u&bligatiort(0» thus contracted was a dishonest man."
" proposition with tho secret intention not to sink the last dollar if necessary to
"sUfil' the obligation thus contracted was a dishonest man."
* * *       " Mr. Blako moved an amendment.    (See Journals of
the House of Commons, page 193, 1871). DEBATE ON ADMISSION OF BEITISH COLUMBIA, 1871.
From Leader report.
The Leader, 29th March 1871.
"Sir Geo. Cartier moved the House into Committee of tho whole to consider the
• resolutions respecting the admission of British Columbia into the Union.       *
* * * * " He anticipated opposition on the clause
' relating to tho railway. British Columbia was to aid it by a land grant of twenty
' mile sections on each side of the lino, which would give twenty-five thousand
' square miles or 50,360 acres. It was. proposed to givo in return one hundred
' thousand dollars annually, which was only interest at fi?o por cent, on two million
' dollars. Placing the value of land at one dollar per acre, it would leave over thirty-
' eight million dollars worth of land to aid tho railway.
" Mr. Tilxey : * * * *        The expenses for local works
' would hardly amount to as much as the hon. member for Sherbrooke had estimated.
' Exclusive of the annual sum for a land grant of 100,000 dollars and annual expenses
'of government, these charges would amount to a total of 361,000 dollars. The
' revenuo amounted to 363,400 at present and would naturally increase in tho future.
1 Even should the local government adopt our lower ^tariff, tho revenue would reach
' 308,000 dollars. The 100,000 dollars were thereforo in excess of tho expenditure,
'and for which the Dominion receives a large grant of land."
" Mr. Mackenzie : * * He spoke of the resources of British Columbia and the
' lands which would be conceded to the Country by the admission of that Province
' into the Union. He montioned that gold mining and agriculture in that country
' had been' a failure, and the revenue of the Colony had been derived from imports
' on breadstuff's imported into the Province.       * *       *        From what infbr-
1 mation he had, the route contemplated for the Pacific Eailway presented greater
' difficulties than any other route in the Dominion, and the country beyond the
' Eocky Mountains was extremoly rough and forbidding. *       * *
March 30, 1871.
"  Mr, Morris:—*     *     *     *.     As to  tho quality of tho land in British
" Columbia he had been informed by Mr. Trutch who was thoroughly acquainted
" with that country, that there wore 22,000 miles or one hundred and forty million
" acres of fertile lands on tho Western Slope of the Eocky Mountains."
Ottawa, 31st March, 1871.
" Mr. Mackenzie referred to tho statement of the Minister of Militia that one
" third of the Territory of British Columbia was fit lor cultivation; but he (Mr.
" Mackenzie) thought tho hon. gentleman had not takonthe troublo to inform himself
" on the question. It was ascertained that there was no more than one-fifth of-the
" Province fit for farming purposes. He charged tho Minister of Agriculture with
" endeavoring to mislead both the people of Canada and British Columbia with respect
" to the construction of the Pacific Eailway, by entering into obligations which the
" government had no intention of fulfilling."
" Mr. Blake—(Amendment) See page 192. Journals of House 1871. 18
EXTEACTS FEOM JOUENALS OF COMMONS, I860,  EESPECTING LANDS
OP NEWFOUNDLAND".
Journals of Commons, 1869.
Page 221.
" That in consideration of the transfer to tho general government by New-.
" foundland of the now ungranted and unoccupied, lands, mines
NewfoundYanndn ^^ " and minerals of the Colony, tho sum of $150,000 shall each year
"be paid to Newfoundland by semi-annual payments in advance;
$160,000 for all un- "the colony shall retain the right of opening, constructing and conchy??andS' °f'hat " tr°Hing roads and bridges through any of tho said lands, and the
" privilege heretofore enjoyed by tho inhabitants of Newfoundland
" of cutting (free of charge) wood on the ungranted lands of the Crown, shall con-
" tinuo to be ex6rcised ljy them in like manner free of charge; but the aforesaid
" reservations shall be subject to such regulations, as may. from time to time, bo
" passed by the Lieutenant Governor of Newfoundland in Council, and which regu-
" lations shall be subject to the approval of tho Governor General in Council."
" Such surrender shall also be subject to the reservations and provisos contained
" in the 7th and 8th sections of the Act of tho Legislature of Newfoundland, 7 Vic,
" chap. 1, but these shall in like manner be at all times subject to approval as afore-
" said.
" That it shall be optional, however, for Newfoundland befcro entering the
" Union, to reserve to itself all the lands and rights conveyed to the General Govern-
" ment by the last preceding clause, and in that case Canada shall bo relieved of the
" payment of the aforesaid sum of $150,000 per annum."
Page 217-18.
'•' Mr. Blake moved an amendment, seconded by thekHon. Mr. Holton:
" That all the words after " That" to the end of tho question be loft out, and the
" words " by the British America Act 1867," it is in effect provided, that each of the
" Provinces by that United Act shall retain its public lands.
Lands don't yield enough. » That the public lands of Newfoundland proposed to be purchased
pSs,Bof management" " bV Canada at the price of $150,000 a year or $3,000,000 do not
"pay the expenses of management.
" That public lands can be managed more efficiently, economically and eatis-
" factorily by the Province in which they are situate than by Canada.
" That there is no good reason for the departure from tho principles of the
" British Act involved in the proposed purchase.
" That this House (while prepared in settling the terms on which Newfoundland
This expresses the will- " should be admitted into the Union to give full consideration
ingness to give N.F.L, » to any exceptional circumstances in the condition of that Pro-
"quTrfdtCttrhert I vince) is of opinion that those terms should be so arranged as
retain her lands. that Newfoundland shall retain all its public lands*."
" Lands " here means the Fame as in B.C., and includes mountain as well as vale. 19
Journals of Commons, 1869.
Pagos 218, 219.
" Hon. Mr. Wood moved in amondmont, seconded by the Hon. Mr. Anglin.
. " That all the words after " That " to the end of the Question be left out, and
" tho words " The Eosolutions bo recommitted to a Committee of the Whole House
" with instructions to amend the same by substituting the following for the 4th, 5th
" and 6lh resolutions:
" Whereas tho Crown Domain of Newfoundland has not hithorto yielded any net
" revenue, and will not bo likely to do so, if taken under the management of tho
" Dominion;
" And whereas thosaid Crown Domain can bo more economically managed by- tho
" local Government of tho Island which is more immediately interested in tho deve-
" lopment of its mineral and agricultural resources:
" And whereas, it is right and just to afford to Newfoundland tho moans absolu-
" toly necessary for providing for tho proper and efficient administration of its local
" Government and local affairs; Therefore,
" Resolved, That all lands, minos, minerals and royalties vosted ih Her Majesty,
" in the Provinco of Newfoundland shall belong to tho Government of Newfoundland,
" subject to any trust that may exist in rospoct to any such lands, mines, minerals,
"and rovaltios, oranj' interests of any other persons in respect of the same."
Pago 219.
" Eosolved, That in consideration of the transfer to the General Parliament of
" the powers of taxation, and in order to onablo Newfoundland to provide for its
" local services, and to carry on its local government, the following sums (namely
" $35,000 and $150,000, making $185,000) shall be paid yearly by Canada to New-
" foundland, that is to say, The said sum of $185,000 and an annual
This proposes same « f,rant equal to 80 cents per head of the aforesaid population—
PUf)SlQ16S        iGfXVinCT O * t iit
lands to iffld. " D°th half yearly in advance—such grant of 80 cents per head to bo
" augmented in proportion to the increase of population as shewn
"by such decennial census until tho population amounts to 400,000, at which rato
" it shall thereafter remain,—it boing understood, that tho first census shall be taken
" in tho year 1871."
DEBATES ON"  ADMISSION OF NEWFOUNDLAND
From Globe Report, June 8, 1869.
; Hon. Mr Eose * * * " Crown Lands $150,000."
Hon. Mr. Smith * * * Then we have to pay $150,000 for Crown lands which
were worth nothing. Last year, the revenue from these was $2,300, whoreas
the cost was $6,000.   Yet, wo hero gravely propose to pay $150,007, a year rent
" and manage them besides.' 20
" Hon. M. Anglin did not feel any desire to haggle about any terms which
" Newfoundland might make, or any advantages which might be conceded to them:
" but the land transaction for which the Dominion was asked to pay $150,006 a year
" was absurd. Lot Newfoundland keep her land and collect her revenues by all means.
" The Dominion did not need it."
********
" As to the land, he would again say, by all moans let Newfoundland keep her
" land. If she wants to get rid of it, perhaps the Great Ontario Ship Canal
" Company might get it to advantage (laughter.)
" Mr. Bodwell * * * Such a proposition was as monstrous as that by which
" they were called on to give $150,000 a year for the land of Newfoundland. From
" all he could gather these lands were of little value as mineral lands; and agri-
" culturally were worth little or nothing."
I Dr. Tupper, * * * These terms had received the approval of tho poople
" throughout the Dominion, and the terms now submitted were substantially the
" samo as thoso agreed to by the Quebec Conference. Tho action of the Conference
| was endorsed by the people, when the Ministry, at a subsequent election, were
" sustained by a great majority; and as part of the scheme so approved, it was
" agreed that tho Dominion should assume the lands and mines of Newfoundland,
" paying a certain sum therefor; It was not now open for this Houso to go back
I from that arrangement.    The reason why this arrangement
!,h*e„ lt«BOn   W^y   *£e    " WAS MADE WAS THAT NEWFOUNDLAND HAD NO SOURCES OF LOCAL
$150,000 were given for „      _   	
lands unnecessarily in        REVENUE,  AND  IT  BECAME NECESSARY TO  MAKE SPECIAL PROVI-
Newfoundland. " SION IN THIS AVAY FOR ITS  LOCAL  SERVICES.     He   believed  tho
" mineral wealth of that Island was very great, and only wanted
" the application of capital to be profitably developed. Suppose it was possible to
" drive a harder bargain with the gentlemen representing Newfoundland, he did not
" think it was desirable to do so, as it was important that they should come into the
" Union satisfied with the future opening up to them. The member for Lambton
" had spoken of this matter as a marriage. If so, if wo were about to make a matri-
" monial arrangement with the fair bride of the Ocean, wo should not haggle about
" the pin-money."
"£,&
Souse of Commons.   Globe Report, June 10, 1869.
" Mr. Blake * * * * The proposed barter of the public lands of
I Newfoundland for $150,000 a year was a sham bargain. The Dominion would never
" reap pecuniarily and directly any advantage from these mines and minerals * * Under
" these circunstances, if the choice were between giving $150,000 a year to Nowfound-
" land and taking her lands, and our giving $150,000 to Newfoundland and leaving her
" land, he would unhesitatingly vote in favor of the latter of those two propositions. He
I believed the prosperity of the Colony would be largely enhanced by the adoption
" of the latter alternative, and; the pecuniary results to Canada would bo largely
" enhanced by it.
I Hon. Mr. Tilley. * * * The* majority decided that tho land should
" remain, as far as the four Province were concerned, in tho hands of the Local Legis-
" lature. But it was not so with Newfoundland. In tho case of that Province
" they thomselves suggested that their lands should bo placed in tho hands of tho
" Dominion."
" Mr. D. A. Macdonald—Why ? "
"Hon. M. Tilley—One of the reasons, he did not hesitate to say, was tliat there
| might be a fixed sum for local matters which they could not be sure of, if the lands were
" under their control and management;  and now that this proposition had come from
At Quebec and London conferences. 21
" Newfoundland, he did not hesitate to say, from his experience, from the difficulties
" we had with settling wild lands, emigration, and with regard to the resources of the
" Dominion, that it was in the " public interest that all Canada lands should be placed
" in the hands of the Dominion."   *   *
**** *****
" Hon. Mr. Anglin, said that it was quite possible that in the Quebec Confer-
" ence the resolution to give the £30,000 was adopted as a payment to the Province
" to carry on its local affairs.     ******
" Hon. Mr. Wood thought the important question was this : what sum would
" be required by Newfoundland to carry on its local services ? That sum being once
" ascertained, Canada should freely give it. * * The only part of the scheme he
" objected to was this : As to publio lands, he would muchprofor that Newfoundland
" would keep her own lands, and with that view he would not object to the special
" subsidy being made $185,000 instead of $35,000.
" Sir John A. Macdonald said if he believed Mr. Blake's amendment carried out
" the views expressed by the hon. gentleman who had just sat down, he could almost
" be disposed to accept it; but he looked upon it as intended to defeat the whole
" scheme of union with Newfoundland."    ******
" Sir John A. Macdonald.—* * * If the hon. mombor (Blake) were to
'■ :ivrr more—that tho House was willing to give an additional subsidy of $150,000,
" but would not claim the lands as a consideration in roturn, that would be a fair
" and candid motion ; but tho amendment he had actually submitted did not put tho
" question in that light."
Mr. Mackenzie. * * He was prepared to give whatevor sum was necessary,
" on a fair calculation, to carry on tho local govornmont of tho Island, but ho was
" not prepared to assumo tho responsibility of these lands, in order to give a premium
' to Newfoundland." APPENDIX.
" An Act to authorizo tho grant of certain Public Lauds to tho Government of the
" Dominion of Canada for Eailway purposes.
" WHEEEAS it is oxpodiont to provide for tho grant of Public Lands to the
" Dominion Government, required for a Eailway between the Town of Nanaimo and
" Esquimalt Harbour;
'•' Therefore Her Majesty, by and with tho advice and consent of the Legislative
" Assembly of the Province of British Columbia, enacts as follows:—
" 1. From and after the passing of this Act, there shall be and there is hereby
" granted to tho Dominion Government, for the purpose of constructing, and to aid
" in tho construction of a Eailway between tho Town of Nanaimo and Esquimalt
" Harbor, in trust to be appropriated in such manner as the Dominion Government
" may deem advisable, a similar grant of Public Lands along the line of Eailway
" before mentioned (not to exceed 20 miles on each side of the said line) as may bo
" 7. This Act may bo citod as tho Esquimalt and Nanaimo Eailway Act, 1875."
An Act to authorize the grant of certain Public Lands on the'Mainland of British
Columbia to the Government of tho Dominion of Canada for Canadian Pacific
Eailway purposos.
HEE MAJESTY, by and with the advice and consent of tho Legislative Assembly
of the Province of British Columbia, enacts as follows:
1. Prom and after the passing of this Act, thero shall be, and thoro is hereby
granted to tho Dominion "Government for the purpose of constructing and to aid in
the construction of the portion of the Canadian Eailway Line located between Burrard
Inlet and Yellow Head summit, in trust, to bo appropriated in such manner as the
Dominion Government may deem advisable, a similar extent of public lands along
the line of railway before mentioned (not to exceed twenty miles on oach side of the
said line) as may bo appropriated for the same purpose by the Dominion from tho
public lands of tho North-West Territories and the Province of. Manitoba, as provided
in the Order in Council, section 11, admitting the Province of British Columbia into
Confederation. Tho land intended to be hereby conveyed is more particularly
described in a despatch to the Lieutenant-Governor from the Honourable tho
Secrotary of State, dated tho 31st day of May, 1878, as a tract of land lying along
the line of said railway, beginning at English Bay or Burrard Inlet and following
the Fraser Eiver to Lytton ; then by the valley or tho Eivor Thompson to Kamloops ;
thence up the Yalley of tho North Thompson, passing near to Lakes Albreda and
Cranberry, to Tete Jaune Cache; thence up the Valley of the Eraser Eiver to tho
summit of Yellow Head, or boundary between British Columbia and the North-Wost e
Territories, and is also defined on a plan accompanying a furthor despatch to th
Lieutenant-Governor from thesaid Secretary of State, dated the 23rd day of September,
1871. The grant of the said land shall bo subject otherwise to the conditions contained
in the said 11th section of the Terms of Union.
2. This Act shall not affect or prejudice the rights of the public with respect to
common and public highways existing at the date hereof within the limits of the
lands hereby intended to be conveyed.
3. This Act may be cited as " An Act to grant public lands on the Mainland to
the Dominion in aid of the Canadian Pacific Eailway, 1880."
COEEESPONDENCE
f With reference to the transfer of Eailway Lands to the Dominion.
By Command.
T. BASIL HUMPHREYS,
Provincial Secretary.
Provincial Seoretary's Office,
4th May, 1880.
Mr. Trutch to the Attorney General.
Victoria, B. O, April 14th, 1880.
Sir,—His Honor tho Lieutenant-Governor having referred me to you as authorized to receive, on behalf of tho Government of British Columbia, communications,
from me, as Agent of tho Dominion Government, on the subject of the adjustment
and transfer to the Dominion of the lands granted by the Province of British Columbia, under the " Term and Conditions " of Union, in aid of tho construction of the
Canadian Pacific Eailroad, I beg to lay before you the following statement of tho
views of the Dominion Government on this matter, and more particularly in regard
to tho selection of the lands to be transferred, which views I had the opportunity of
verbally submitting more fully for vour consideration at the interview I had the
honour of having with you this morning.
There is reason to believe that the character of the land for a very considerable
distance along tho lino of the Canadian Pacific Eailway, as located in British
Columbia, is such as to be altogether unsuited for agricultural purposes, and, therefore, valueless for tho object contemplated at tho time tho Provinco was admitted
into the Confederation, which was, that the lands proposed to bo transferred to the
Dominion should be laid out and sold to aid in tho construction of the road.
The portion of Section 11 of the " Terms and Conditions," on which the Province became a part of the Dominion, which refers to tho grant -of land to be made
by the Provinco for the purpose of the railway, is as follows:—
" And the Government of British Columbia agree to convey to the Dominion
" Government, in trust,' to be appropriated in such manner as the Dominion Govern-
" ment may deem advisablo, in furtfierance of the construction of the said Eailway,
" a similar extent of Public-Lands along the line of Eailway throughout its entire length
" in British Columbia, not to exceed, however, Twenty (20) Miles on each side of said
" line, as may be appropriated for.the same purpose by the Dominion Government
" from the public lands in the North-West Territories and the Province of Manitoba; 24
" Provided that tho quantity of land which may be held under Pre-emption right or
" by Crown grant within the limits of the tract of land in British Columbia to bo so
" conveyed to the Dominion Government, shall be made good to the Dominion from
" contiguous Public Lands; and, provided further, that until the commencement,
" within two years, as aforesaid, from the date of the Union, of the construction of
" the said Eailway, tho Government of British Columbia shall not sell or alienate
" any further portions of the Public Lands of British Columbia in any other way
" than under right of Pre-emption, requiring actual residence of the Pre-emptor on
I the land claimed by him. In consideration of the land to be so conveyed in aid of
" the construction of the Eailway, the Dominion Government agree to pay to British
" Columbia, from the date of the Union, tho sum of 100,000 Dollars per annum, in
" half-yearly payments in advance."
In view of the statement made in tho preceding paragraph, it now becomes
necessary that an understanding be arrived at with the Government of the
Province by which tho Dominion may receive an equal area of lands available
for farming or economical purposes in lieu of those which, on investigation, may
be found to be unavailable within the forty-mile belt, and the Dominion Government
urgently request the concurrence of the Government of British Columbia in the
following arrangements: i. e., That such territory situate within the forty-mile belt
referred to in the section of the " Terms and Conditions " above quoted as may be
found on a thorough examination and investigation useless for farming or other
valuable purposes, may not be regarded as properly forming part of tho land consideration to be received by the Dominion, but that the same bo eliminated from the
area in the belt described, and that an equal area of land suitable for farming or
other valuable purposes bo selected elsewhere in the Province in lieu thereof. The
area to be selected outside of the belt mentioned should, in addition, include a quantity of land to represent that in the Fraser Eiver Valley and elsewhere along or in
the vicinity of tho Eailway line which may be found to have been already disposed
of by the Province, or with regard to which valid claims may be preferred, as also
to cover the deficiency caused by the International Boundary on the Mainland'
and the coast line on Vancouver Island respectively falling within the forty-mile
belt.
The Dominion Government cannot doubt that the Provincial Government will
consider itself pledged in good faith in view of tho whole circumstances, and of the
actual money consideration stipulated for in the section of the "Terms and Conditions"
above cited, and which has been regularly paid, to place the Dominion Government
in possession of land elsewhere in lieu of the corresponding area within tho railway
belt, which may be found to be useless for agricultural or other valuable purposes.
In accordance with theso views, and acting as the Agent of the Dominion
Government, duly accredited to the Government of British Columbia under authority
of the Order in Council, dated the 25th February last, a copy of which has been
received by His Honor the Lieutenant Governor, I have the honor to prefer the
request that the right above defined of selecting lands outside of the forty-mile belt
in lieu of lands within that limit which, on investigation, shall bo found to be valueless, and to supply the deficiency caused by tho International Boundary on" the Mainland and the coast line on Vancouver Island respectively falling within the forty-mile
belt, be specifically conveyed to the Dominion by the insertion of provisions to that
effect in the "Eailway Lands Eesorvation Bill," now under consideration in the
Legislative Assembly.
I haye, etc.,
(Signed) JOSEPH W. TRUTCH.  

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