CONTENTdm
Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts
British Columbia. Supreme Court
In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, between: Delgamuukw, also known as Albert Tait, suing on his own behalf and on behalf of all the members of the House of Delgamuukw, and others, plaintiffs, and Her Majesty the Queen in right of the Province of British Columbia and the Attorney General of Canada, defendants: proceedings at trial.
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13067 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Rush 1 Vancouver, B.C. 2 March 9th, 1989 3 4 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) 5 6 THE REGISTRAR: In the Supreme Court of British Columbia. 7 Vancouver, this Thursday, March 9, 1989. Calling 8 Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen at bar. 9 I caution the witness, you're still under oath. 10 THE COURT: Mr. Mackenzie. 11 MR. MACKENZIE: My lord, we have checked our records with 12 respect to those interviews which Mr. Rush mentioned 13 yesterday, and we've confirmed that we did receive 14 them in November as Mr. Rush indicated, and September. 15 THE COURT: Well, I made a lucky guess. Thank you, Mr. 16 Mackenzie. 17 MR. RUSH: Thank you. 18 19 A. MILLS, Resumed: 20 21 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH CONTINUED: 22 Q Dr. Mills, your opinion is in front of you. I wonder 23 if you would please turn to page 215. This is in your 24 final chapter of the opinion and I'd like to refer you 25 to the last paragraph which says, and I quote: 26 27 "The Wet'suwet'en have incorporated 28 Christianity into their lives but they have 29 not lost their own unique way of relating to 30 the world and the land that has been theirs 31 since before their first prophets told of 32 the vast changes that were to come. While 33 the lives of the Wet'suwet'en have changed, 34 as have the lives of all people in the 35 twentieth century, the Wet'suwet'en continue 36 to relate to the modern world from the 37 wisdom of their tradition into which they 38 have been born over the millenia. that 39 tradition is founded on treating all life 4 0 forms, be they human or animal with 41 respect." 42 43 End Quote. And is that your opinion, Dr. Mills, 44 with respect to this chapter? 45 A Yes. 46 Q I'd like to direct your attention specifically to the 47 phrase in the second line of that paragraph that I've 1306? A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A MR. RUSH: Q A THE COURT A THE COURT A Excuse me. And he or B-E-E-N-I? just read to you which says, "They have not", and I'm quoting, "They have not lost their own unique way of relating to the world." And I wonder if you would explain or amplify that? Their way of relating to the world is through a system which is grounded in on matrilines which are headed by chiefs who have authority over territories, and they exercise this authority in part because they are recognized as having a kind of spiritual power that's grounded in things like Habo Tsat and the ability to know through dreams to foretell the future. It also includes their continued belief in reincarnation, and this whole way of looking at the world is something that has been maintained up to the present. Habo Tsat is H-A-B-0 new word T-S-A-T. In the chapter you make reference to the prophet Bini, B-I-N-I. And can you explain to the court the significance, if any, of Bini to the Wet'suwet'en world view? Bini was a Wet'suwet'en who lived from approximately around 1820 to 1855 — 1885. was -- I'm sorry. Is it B-E-N-I It's often spelled B-I-N-I. B-I-N-I. Thank you. And he was important to the Wet'suwet'en as a prophet who foretold change that was going to come. This was before the missionaries had arrived into the area. And he appeared to fall dead and returned -- returned to life after a period of days in which he was apparently unconscious, and told them about what he had learned during this time in a vision that he had had. And he foretold changes that were going to come to the Wet'suwet'en. And he -- he organized them in some ways that paved a way for the Christianity after him. He instituted dances, for example, on a sabath. At the same time that he was integrating some things that were to come he was also a Wet'suwet'en chief of some note. He became Chief Kweese, the head chief of the Tsayu. And this was at a time when the population was being reduced quite drastically by smallpox epidemics, so that he coalesced the Laksamshu and Tsayu into a single house so that -- because the numbers had been reduced so drastically that they couldn't effectively work as a feasting group without -- without this kind of joining. And he -- he is -- his reknown spread in all directions from his 13069 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 4 5 6 MR. RUSH: 7 Q 8 9 10 11 A 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 THE COURT 21 22 23 24 A 25 THE COURT 26 27 A 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 THE COURT 35 MR. RUSH: 36 Q 37 38 A 39 40 Q 41 42 43 A 44 Q 45 A 46 Q 47 A visions and he in feasting got people to take his names at Hagwilget, his prophecies and his new kind of ethic that he was talking about spread also to the Gitksan as well as to the Sekani and to the Beaver Indians and people on different sides. And in terms of the Wet'suwet'en perception of the world did the accounts, or do the accounts of Bini and the understanding of Bini relate to the world view as it began to change? Yes. Yes, it does. He provided a kind of way of integrating Christianity later because his prophetic visions, his prowess in dying and returning to life was seen as a way of making comprehensible the teachings about Christ, which then subsequently were brought by the missionaries. The prophet Bini, is he spoken of in Jenness? Yes, he is. At pages 203 to 206 of your opinion you make -- : I'm sorry, Mr. Rush, before you leave that, I notice on page 215 you talk there of in the last paragraph there their first prophets. Now, I'm not sure if you include Bini in that? I do. : The question I have, of course, is does that exclude earlier prophets? No. This Bini came out of a tradition in which people were expected to know things through dreaming and through a kind of vision and trans kinds of contact with the spirit world. And I suppose the first prophets would really be the first people in this tradition in an extremely long period of time, but Bini was -- was more major than most. : Yes. All right. I'm sorry, Mr. Rush. What page? Thank you. Pages 203 to 207. You there set out with some particularity the account of Bini and you reference Jenness 1943, is that so? Yes. You'd really have to start on 202 to get the first, because the rest is opposites to that Thank you. That's 202 to 207 then. Have there been contemporary Wet'suwet'en people speak to you about Bini? Oh, yes. And who were they? Lots of people speak about Bini. Emma Michell Where did she describe Bini? I think in her commission evidence she also described 13070 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Bini. Chief Kweese, who holds the same hereditary title, of course, talks about Bini. Q Is that Florence Hall? A Yes. MR. RUSH: Kweese is K-W-E-E-S-E. Q You mentioned Barbeau. Did Barbeau address Bini? A Well, Barbeau was primarily doing field work with the Gitksan, but Bini's name had definitely spread to the Gitksan, and he records what some Gitksan people said about Bini. MR. RUSH: All right. My lord, the 1943 reference to Jenness on those pages is found at tab 24. Their page references are in the text. Q I want to draw your attention, Dr. Mills, to tab 43 of the large black volume number three. I would just ask if you'd look at tab 43. And can you identify these as two accounts collected by Marius Barbeau regarding Bini? Well, in my version there's one at tab 42. Yes. Thank you. At tab 42. And another one at tab 43. Yes. And my question about those two tabs is do they reflect the recordings by Mr. Barbeau of accounts of the life of Bini? Yes, they do. Are these the only accounts that Barbeau collected? No. He collected some more than this. I haven't counted them recently, but I think there may be six more. Something around eight accounts that he collected. They're all similar. Q That's what I was going to ask you. Are these representative of the eight that you know of Barbeau's? A Yes, they are. Q And did you review these in the preparation of your opinion? A I did. MR. RUSH: I'd like these to be marked, my lord. THE REGISTRAR: The next exhibit number is 945. THE COURT: 945. Tab 42 would be 945 and tab 43 will be 946. THE REGISTRAR: Yes. (EXHIBIT 945: Tab 42 of Plf. Book III) (EXHIBIT 956: Tab 43 of Plf. Book III) A Q A Q A Q A 13071 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. RUSH: Q A A THE COURT MR. RUSH: THE COURT MR. RUSH: Q A Dr. Mills, in the same chapter you deal with the relationship with the Wet'suwet'en world view with the Christian world view, and I wonder if you can explain or amplify on the nature of the two world views as you from your perspective in your field work were able to determine? One of the interesting features is that the Wet'suwet'en have adopted Christianity. As Emma Michell said, "We are all good Catholics or Pentecostals now." But at the same time they have retained their own way of thinking about things as well. As I mentioned yesterday, Morice thought that to make the Carrier, and including the eastern and the western Wet'suwet'en, Christian it would be necessary to stamp out the earlier beliefs. In fact what has happened is that Christianity has been added but the earlier beliefs have not been deleted, so that the Wet'suwet'en continue to believe in the powers as they did previously. They continue to -- to view the cause of illness as they did previously, but at the same time they have added Christianity on and they now think that -- have incorporated it in so that they think that if they do use their powers to harm someone without cause then -- then the retribution in the past would have sort have been caused by some animal species spirit or some other type of Kaigyet spirit is going to be meted out by a higher power. You cite a letter of Father Morice on page 208 over 209 which you translated of October 25, 1899. I just ask you to look at tab 29 which there appears to be in French a version of the English translation at 208. I wonder if you could confirm that for us. Yes. : Where is the translation, Mr. Rush? The translation, my lord, the passage translated, is in the text at page 208. : Yes. All right. Dr. Mills, are you able to assist us in respect of the particular page within tab 29 that was the passage that you referred to? If you'll look at page 18 I'll ask you if that -- the underlining that appears in the French text is the portion that you translated on 208 and 2 09? Yes. It begins with the second sentence of the first full paragraph at page 18. 13072 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Rush Q All right. And does it continue on to that page and over to the next page? A Yes. Q Thank you. All right. Thank you. Can I mark -- this was obtained from the Oblate Archives, was it? A Yes. Q In Ottawa? A Yes. Q By you personally? A Yes. Q And it was translated by you? A Yes. MR. RUSH: May this be an exhibit. THE COURT: The whole of item 29? MR. RUSH: Well, I've included the whole thing as a package. Yes, the whole thing. THE COURT: All right. That will be Exhibit 947. THE REGISTRAR: 947. And it's tab 29. (EXHIBIT 947: Tab 29 of Plf. Book III) MR. MR. RUSH: Q A Q A RUSH: THE COURT MR. RUSH: Q A Q A Q A Q A Dr. Mills, would you just review pages 199 through to 216 of your opinion. Do you adopt the facts and opinions as stated in this -- in these pages? I do. And I'd ask you if you would, please, to look at pages one through nine of your opinion, and I would ask -- similarly ask you if you would adopt the pages in the introductory chapter of your opinion? Yes, I do. Thank you. I wonder if you could just set those aside now. Thank you, Madam Registrar. I wonder if you could produce Exhibit 62-1. My intention now, my lord, is to refer Dr. Mills to several genealogies which have been entered as exhibits in the proceedings. : This is Gisdaywa, is it? This is Gisdaywa. That's Exhibit 62-1. Dr. Mills, do you recognize this genealogy? Yes, I do. And you recognize it as a genealogy, do you? Yes, I do. Okay. Did you -- did you prepare this? Yes, I helped in its preparation. And is this genealogy in your handwriting? Yes, it is . 13073 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Rush 1 Q And on what did you base the information that's 2 contained on this genealogy? 3 A I based it on information from Alfred Joseph. 4 Q Okay. And did you make notes of that information? 5 A These are the notes. 6 Q Are you familiar with the names, both the Wet'suwet'en 7 and the English names that appear in -- described on 8 this genealogy? I'm not asking if you know 9 necessarily the people, but simply if you know the 10 names that are shown there. 11 A That's right. The feast names I'm particularly 12 familiar with. Some of the peoples old names I hadn't 13 heard before. Alfred Joseph gave them. 14 Q Okay. And does the genealogy tell you anything about 15 the relationship of the -- of people on the genealogy 16 one to the other? 17 A Yes. These are people who are related matrilineally 18 and their spouses. These are all people of one house, 19 in other words. 20 Q All right. Does it indicate to you anything with 21 respect to the succession of names? 22 A Well, yes. You can follow from this genealogy the 23 succession of the chiefs titled Gisdaywa. It first 24 appears on the top left-hand part of the genealogy 25 where there's a woman -- women are represented by 26 circles, and there's a woman whose name is given as 27 Gisdaywa, and then you can see that her son, who is 28 below her, is also Gisdaywa. 29 Q That's Joseph Paul Naaloogh, N-A-A-L-O-G-H? 30 A That's right. 31 Q Yes. 32 A And then you can see that the succession then goes 33 from Joseph Paul Naaloogh, it goes through his 34 mother's sister's daughter's son is the next Gisdaywa. 35 That's Thomas George Gisdaywa, who appears on -- on 36 the third line down on the right-hand side of the 37 first page of this genealogy. 38 Q All right. And — 39 A And then the succession goes from Thomas George 40 Gisdaywa to Alfred Joseph, who's the current Gisdaywa. 41 And it goes from the previous Thomas George Gisdaywa, 42 his sister's son. 43 MR. RUSH: All right. Gisdaywa on the genealogy is spelled 44 G-A-S-D-A-Y-W-A. 45 Q Does this genealogy tell you anything else about the 46 relations of the people shown on it? 47 A Yes. You can say from this genealogy that the people 13074 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q 8 A 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 24 25 26 Q 27 A 28 MR. RUSH: 29 30 31 32 THE COURT 33 MR. RUSH: 34 THE COURT 35 MR. RUSH: 36 Q 37 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 45 46 A 47 in this matriline marry people in different clans and houses. For example, that first Gisdaywa that's over on the top left-hand side is married to someone who, in the parentheses, of the Gilseyhu or frog clan, and if you look over and see that top Gisdaywa's sister who is known by her chief name Detsan. Is that D-E-T-S-A-N? Yes. You can see that her husband is also identified in Goohlaht's house. So those sisters, in other words, have married people who are in the same clan which is entirely different from the Gisdaywa clan. The marriage is -- is called an exogamous marriage. That means you never marry in your own house and clan. It goes not only house, but clan. And you can see that there's a tendency for there to be some duplication of people marrying in set clans. So that you see Joseph George marrying someone who also is Goohlaht's house. Joseph George being a -- A son of Cecilia George -- Yes. -- And Felix George. You see the pattern both ways of a woman sometimes marrying someone who's in her father's clan. For example, Cecilia George married someone who was in her father's clan. Being that person holding the name of Goohlaht? The person she married, yes, held the name Goohlaht. All right. Thank you, Dr. Mills. I'm just going to ask you to set that aside. I'd like to ask the It should be in the witness now about Exhibit 62-1? same book. What is it, Mr. — It's the genealogy of Madeek. Thank you. Now, Dr. Mills, are you knowledgeable about this genealogy? Yes. Did you prepare this? Yes. Is this in your handwriting? Yes. Or printing. And on this is 62-18, and on what information did you base the genealogy that is here shown as 62-18, Exhibit 62-18? I took whatever information had already been gathered when I began, when I was asked to help on these 13075 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Rush 1 genealogies, and then went to the people in Madeek's 2 house. Madeek himself, George Naziel, the late George 3 Naziel was alive at the time when I began this, but he 4 had had a stroke so he couldn't speak so I talked to 5 his wife and his son. His son Amos Naziel translated 6 for his wife and got the information that they knew. 7 And we also went to the late Peter Alfred and asked 8 him for information. And he was not in good health, 9 but he gave quite a bit of information. And his wife 10 contributed as well. 11 Q All right. And can you explain to his lordship what, 12 if anything, this genealogy tells you? 13 A This genealogy shows the people in a particular house 14 within the Gitdumdem clan, and it shows again the same 15 principle that people are related through the 16 matriline. You are a member of a house by virtue of 17 the house that your mother is in. And it also shows 18 the same principle of succession of names through this 19 matriline. See, if we could find Madeek we could 20 trace the succession. Again, goes through the same 21 kind of matriline, and it shows another principle that 22 you marry outside of your own house and clan. 23 Q That's exogamous? 24 A Exogamous. And also shows that you're -- sometimes 25 that people marry outside the clan. They are free to 26 marry in any clan they want to, but often there's sort 27 of a replication of marrying back into your, woman 28 speaking, into her father's clan. 29 MR. RUSH: All right. Thank you. And would you, please, look 30 now to tab -- well, it's not in that binder. It would 31 be Exhibit 119. That is the genealogy of Wah tah 32 keght. W-A-H new word T-A-H new word K-E-G-H-T. 33 THE REGISTRAR: Is that tab 9? 34 MR. RUSH: Yes. 35 Q Dr. Mills, is this genealogy in your handwriting? 3 6 A Some of it is, but some of it isn't. 37 Q Do you recognize the handwriting of the portions that 38 is not yours? 39 A I'm not entirely certain if I -- that I do. 40 Q All right. Were you involved in obtaining information 41 with respect to this genealogy which information 42 appears on the genealogy? 43 A Yes. 44 Q All right. And from whom did you obtain the 45 information? 46 A A great deal of the information came from Madeline 47 Alfred and other information came from George Holland 13076 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Rush 1 2 Q 3 4 5 A 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Q 14 15 16 A 17 MR. RUSH: 18 19 20 THE COURT 21 MR. RUSH: 22 Q 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 A 30 Q 31 A 32 Q 33 34 A 35 Q 36 37 38 A 39 Q 40 41 42 43 A 44 45 46 47 and an aunt of his. All right. And in reference to what the genealogies of Gisdaywa and Madeek show what does this show -- this genealogy show, if anything? Well, it shows the same kind of patterns. That these are people who are related through the mother's side, that they marry outside of their clan and house, and that sometimes there's a pattern of marrying back into your father's clan, but not necessarily. If you look at all Madeline Alfred's children have married particularly not into the wolf clan, which is her husband's clan, but into the Laksamshu and Tsayu clan. Thank you. And, again, Dr. Mills, are you familiar with some of the Wet'suwet'en names and English names as names that appear on this genealogy? Yes. All right. Thank you. I'd like to refer the witness next to Exhibit 99F, the genealogy of Wah tah kwets. That's W-A-H new word T-A-H new word K-W-E-T-S. : K-W-E-T-S? K-W-E-T-S. Dr. Mills, do you recognize this genealogy as a genealogy of the Kwen beegh yex, or house beside the fire of Wah tah kwets. That's K-W-E-N new word B-E-E-G-H new word Y-E-X. And Wah tah kwets is the name spelling I already gave you. Do you recognize this as a genealogy of that house? Yes, I do. Is this genealogy in your handwriting? No, it's not. And is it -- are you able to determine from that handwriting who it was that prepared this? This is the handwriting of Victor Jim. All right. And would you -- were you involved in the gathering of information that appears on this genealogy? Yes. Okay. And in reviewing this genealogy can you tell us what, if anything, it shows; the same or different from what you have commented on with respect to previous genealogies? It shows the same principles again. People know their membership into a particular house by being related through a matriline, and they marry outside of their house. There is some tendency to repeat the clans that you marry into. 13077 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Rush 1 Q 2 3 A 4 Q 5 6 A 7 Q 8 9 THE COURT 10 MR. RUSH: 11 THE COURT 12 MR. RUSH: 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 18 19 Q 20 21 A 22 23 24 25 26 Q 27 28 29 A 30 31 32 33 Q 34 35 A 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 Q 45 46 A 47 MR. RUSH: And there are a number of Wet'suwet'en names contained on this genealogy. Are you familiar with those names? Yes. And some of the English names, are you familiar with those? Yes. I'd like to show the witness Exhibit 239-2. This is the genealogy of Kweese. : K-W-E-E-S-E? Yes. : Thank you. Do you recognize this genealogy, Dr. Mills? I guess. Is this in your hand? Was this prepared by you? Yes, it was. I think I used this tedious method of trying to use a template for making the lettering nicer. This -- this was work that was done by you however, was it? Well, I don't think I would ever have written Brazil for Bazil, and I see that consistently on this first page. I think some of this may have been farmed out to somebody else, but I definitely prepared the ref. copy from which this better copy was made. And from whom did you obtain the information with respect to the relation -- relations which are shown on this genealogy? Well, again, any information that had previously been gathered by Heather Harris I used, or any information that had been gathered at all, but I also interviewed Florence Hall in particular for this information. Okay. And can you explain what significance the genealogy has? Oh, well, the genealogy follows the same principles as the ones we've viewed already. The way that your membership in -- in a house is determined is by whether you're related through matriline, and the chiefs' names of -- succession of the chief's name Kweese, as well as the other names in the house, are passed through this matriline. And you don't -- it shows that you don't marry into your matriline or your clan. Thank you. The current holder of the name Kweese is Florence Hall? That's correct. Thank you. All right. May the witness be shown 1307? A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Rush 1 Exhibit 252 next. It should be in relatively the same 2 area. This is the genealogy of Namox Tsayu. Exhibit 3 252. 4 THE REGISTRAR: It's Dan Michell's book and it's tab 2. 5 THE COURT: And whose genealogy is it? 6 MR. RUSH: Namox. N-A-M-O-X. 7 MR. MACKENZIE: 8 Q Dr. Mills, did you prepare this genealogy? 9 A I certainly worked on collecting the information which 10 is contained in it, but this one isn't in my hand 11 either. 12 Q All right. Do you recognize the hand of the person 13 who prepared this? 14 A This is in Victor Jim's hand. 15 Q All right. And are you able to say from whom it was 16 that you obtained information which appears on the 17 genealogy? 18 A I interviewed Chief Wilat and Emma Michell. 19 MR. RUSH: Wilat is W-I-L-A-T. 2 0 Q And do you know who held the name at that time? Do 21 you remember? 22 A Margaret Williams. 23 Q And in -- what can you say about the relationships 24 which are shown on this genealogy? 25 A Again, they show that the people are related through 26 the mother's side, and the marriages are to someone 27 outside of the house and clan, and that the names, 28 chiefly names, are passed within the members of the 29 house. And that, again, sometimes there is this 30 duplication of marrying or crossing -- cross 31 referencing back to the same father's side. Marry 32 someone who's in your father's clan and house. I 33 mentioned it yesterday for a case that would fall on 34 this -- this genealogy. 35 Q Right. And I now ask if you look at Exhibit 310, 36 which is the genealogy of Knedebeas, which is 37 K-N-E-D-E-B-E-A-S. This genealogy dated March the 38 1st, 1988, is this in your handwriting? 39 A No, it's not. 40 Q Do you recognize the handwriting? 41 A No. 42 Q Okay. Were you involved in gathering the information 43 which appears on this genealogy? 44 A Yes. I went to Prince George where -- where the head 45 chief of this house, Sarah Layton, was in the 46 hospital, and with Victor Jim and Don Ryan. This may 47 be Don Ryan's handwriting. And we asked her for the 13079 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q A MR. RUSH: A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Rush Proceedings genealogy. All right. And what can you say about what the genealogy shows, if anything? Well, it shows the succession of membership in the house through the matriline, succession of names such as Knedebeas and other names in the house with two people who are in the matriline, and the same principle of marrying outside of your own clan and house. All right. Thank you, very much. Now, my lord, I am going to tender the interview notes of the hereditary chiefs which have been referred to by Dr. Mills, and have been referred to between my learned friends and I. I have compiled a set of these for your lordship, and I have a transfer letter which is -- acts as an index to them, at least in the chronological order in which they appear in the two volumes, one dated November 10th and one dated November 15th. I don't mean to utilize the transfer letter for any reason other than it shows the sequence of what's contained in the volume. If your lordship finds that of use I would have to tender that as well. If not then I'm quite happy to take that out. Now, whose interviews are these? These are interviews referred to by Dr. Mills in her evidence as the interviews of hereditary chiefs done in the period of 1981, 1983. And they have sometimes been called the land claims interviews, they have been called the transcripts of the interviews of hereditary chiefs and -- None were done by Dr. Mills, of course? None of these were done by Dr. Mills. And some of these are duplicates, and I haven't had the time to take them out of this larger volume, two volume set. Some of these have already been identified and marked in the proceedings, I think in tabs 16 through to 22, and the -- and in some cases -- Of volume? Of volume 2. Okay. They're already in. They're already in. Now, I have two sets of -- these are just the Wet'suwet'en interviews. One set involves those of November the 10th and the second of November the 15th, and -- And they're tendered on the basis of they form a part of the corpus of material upon which the witness relied in preparing her opinion? THE COURT MR. RUSH: THE COURT MR. RUSH: THE COURT MR. RUSH: THE COURT MR. RUSH: THE COURT: 13080 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) Proceedings 1 MR. RUSH: That's correct. And I'm going to ask the witness 2 just to review these now. 3 MR. MACKENZIE: Well, my lord, I'm going to rise and make an 4 objection about -- to the tendering of these as an 5 exhibit now. I don't know whether we received them 6 all. I assume from what Mr. Rush says that we have, 7 but we had no idea that they were going to be tendered 8 at this time, and no idea that Dr. Mills was going to 9 be asked to review them and indicate that these were 10 the basis of her report, so I can't -- 11 THE COURT: Does that not emerge out of her report? 12 MR. MACKENZIE: I can't deny — sorry, my lord, could I answer 13 your lordship's question. I can't deny they were 14 provided to us, because I don't know. I'm assuming 15 they were in November just before the territorial 16 cross-examinations. And now to answer your lordship's 17 question does that appear from her report, my answer 18 is no, it does not appear from her report. Mr. Rush 19 wrote me a letter telling me which interviews she 20 relied on. Of course, those are the interviews I 21 concentrated on. There is no mention of land claims 22 interviews in her report, although in her draft 23 opinion which we used last Friday land claims tapes is 24 used extensively and land claims interviews used 25 extensively. Having said that I have to acknowledge, 26 as Ms. Koenigsberg has told me, probably in an 27 abundance of caution, we should have reviewed and 28 expected this to happen for all the Wet'suwet'en 29 interviews that were provided to us in November. I 30 simply say we haven't done it. We weren't advised 31 this would happen. 32 THE COURT: Ms. Koenigsberg has suggested you should have done 33 it, has she? 34 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 35 THE COURT: Ms. Koenigsberg. 36 MS. KOENIGSBERG: People don't always take my advice. My only 37 concern is that I'm not entirely sure what it is 38 before the witness, and I would just like to have 39 confirmed that there are a body of interviews which 4 0 have come under heading of land claims interviews 41 which are of Wet'suwet'en people. I believe that the 42 witness has said through her evidence that she 43 reviewed all of the Wet'suwet'en land claims 44 transcript interviews, and I believe her evidence was 45 that she didn't listen to any that had not been 46 transcribed, but that she had reviewed all of the ones 47 that are transcribed. And my question is is what is 13081 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) Proceedings 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 now being tendered all of the Wet'suwet'en land claims interviews which have been provided to you, all of them, and the assumption is they have been provided to us . THE COURT: Well, would it be accurate to put the question the other way, and that is are you asking whether this now -- this collection now includes some that have been transcribed, but not previously furnished to you, because obviously she hasn't got any transcripts there that haven't been transcribed. MS. KOENIGSBERG: One assumes that's correct. THE COURT: Yes. MS. KOENIGSBERG: I'm going to assume that in the production which took place -- THE COURT: Yes. MS. KOENIGSBERG: — In November — THE COURT: Yes. MS. KOENIGSBERG: — We received all of the Wet'suwet'en interviews that were transcribed. THE COURT: Yes. All right. MS. KOENIGSBERG: And were in the possession of the plaintiffs. THE COURT: Let's stop there. Is that right, Mr. Rush? MR. RUSH: Pardon? These interviews, I believe, are in addition to the ones, or may as well incorporate ones that were disclosed on September 8th of 1987. There was an earlier -- there were two disclosures made on September 8th, '87. COURT: Yes. RUSH: And my understanding is that there are some here that were not duplicated in this disclosure, that disclosure being those of September 8th, '87. Now, what I've tried to do is for the disclosures, or at the least the ones that have already been separately exhibited and have been separately disclosed are contained in volume 2. THE COURT: Are you saying, Mr. Rush, that everything that is in the two volumes before the witness now was disclosed either on November 10th or November 15th, 1987? MR. RUSH: Subject to three pages and seven pages which were disclosed on February the 28th. COURT: All right. RUSH: We're only dealing with the Wet'suwet'en. There are some -- COURT: Yes. RUSH: -- Interviews with the Gitksan. COURT: Well, Ms. Koenigsberg's problem, however, is to define even further by -- by asking, as I understand THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE 13082 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) Proceedings 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. RUSH THE COURT MR. THE MS. THE MS. RUSH: COURT MR. THE THE it, whether there are any other Wet'suwet'en interviews that have been transcribed but which are not included? Yes, there are. I think, although I'm not sure, there was a disclosure of some handwritten ones that were made during the course of the territorial cross-examinations by Mr. Grant, and I believe that they included some Wet'suwet'en. I have not included those here. But you're telling Ms. Koenigsberg that all transcribed Wet'suwet'en interviews have now been disclosed? Yes. All right. Ms. Koenigsberg, are you -- KOENIGSBERG: I think our only possible confusion is whether the witness referred to them. COURT: Yes. KOENIGSBERG: And in that sense relied upon them. And is my friend now putting forward that collection? I simply wish to have it clear for the court and ourselves, of course, the corpus upon which the opinion rests. And I'm less concerned about actual disclosure, assuming that substantial or complete disclosure has taken place, but that we are referring to and putting into evidence the complete set of which was relied upon by the witness. That is my concern. All right. I'm not sure. I don't remember whether a moment ago, Mr. Rush, you asked that formal question of the witness. Yes, I did. You did. And you said -- have you referred to, relied directly or indirectly on all that information, amongst other things? I did, yes. All right. All right. Well, then, Mr. Rush, my only remaining concern or problem is the question of fairness that might arise in this connection out of what Mr. Mackenzie said, that he had inquired and you had told him or gave particulars of what it was that the witness was relying upon, and a number of these were mentioned in reply or response which led him to believe that that was all she would be relying upon. And led him further, I suppose, to say that if you had told me about additional ones I would have reviewed them, but you didn't tell me and now I haven't reviewed them and now I haven't got time before I have to cross-examine. What do you say about that? THE COURT RUSH: COURT A COURT 13083 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) Proceedings 1 MR. RUSH: 2 3 4 5 THE COURT 6 MR. RUSH: 7 8 THE COURT 9 MR. RUSH: 10 11 THE COURT 12 MR. RUSH: 13 14 15 THE COURT 16 MR. RUSH: 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 THE COURT 27 MR. RUSH: 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 THE COURT 37 MR. RUSH: 38 39 THE COURT 40 41 MR. macke: 42 43 44 45 46 47 THE COURT Well, the first point is that in her opinion Dr. Mills, as is evident from the review of the opinion and her evidence, makes specific reference to specific passages that she relied upon. : Yes. And these are taken from extracts and portions of the interviews with the hereditary chiefs -- : Yes. -- She said that she referred to as part of the underlying work that she did -- : Yes. -- To this body of material. And it is your lordship's, I think, succinct characterization of whether she referred to them directly or indirectly. : Yes. And it is so that the direct references and the direct reliances that Dr. Mills placed on the -- the hereditary chiefs' interviews are noted in her report and were earlier disclosed. However, the -- all of this body of interviews is -- is not something that she herself has said in her report that she has relied on directly, but I take it that if the -- if there is a basis for her referring to them indirectly and it forms part, if you will, of the body of knowledge that she brings to bear in her opinion -- : Yes. -- Through the procession of investigation that she has undertaken, knowledge that is drawn, I might add from a number of different sources, including ethnographic sources, and so on, then she is entitled to refer to it as part of her opinion. And in addition to that, in my submission, you're entitled to see it by that reference where I choose, or where I think it's significant for you to see the body of underlying material to which she has made reference. : You mean in argument? Well, now in the course of the examination and as well in argument, yes. : All right. All right. Thank you. Anything else you want to say, Mr. Mackenzie? JZIE: My lord, I wonder if I could just read your lordship the letter that all this comes from. That's the first disclosure in response to our request, and that was September 8th, 1987. Mr. Rush said, "I enclose photocopies of interview notes relied on by Dr. Mills in her expert opinion report." : Yes. 13084 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) Proceedings Ruling by the Court 1 MR. MACKENZIE: And there follow a list of 18 notes. And 2 that's -- that's the disclosure that we had relating 3 to Dr. Mills and our further correspondence related to 4 that disclosure. 5 THE COURT: Present sight shows that to be very ambiguous, 6 doesn't it? 7 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. Yes, that's correct. 8 THE COURT: Well, all right. I'm — I'm not sure that there's 9 any difference in principle here between what's 10 happening or what Mr. Rush wants to happen, and what 11 would be the case if a witness were to say I relied 12 upon all the -- all the books on anthropology in the 13 Smithsonian Library or the Library of Man in Ottawa or 14 the archives. I referred to some of them and where 15 I've relied upon some specifically I've said so, but 16 in preparing my opinion I have relied upon a great 17 deal more than just references that have been made. I 18 think the witness would be entitled to say that. And 19 I suspect that when a witness does prepare a report 20 for use in litigation he or she does indeed rely upon 21 all the underlying learning to which he or she has 22 been exposed. And allowing these to be marked for the 23 limited purpose of, or allowing them to be put in 24 evidence for the limited purpose of collecting 25 together what she relied upon doesn't advance the 26 opinion further than would have been the case if she 27 had merely said I relied upon a whole bunch of 28 interviews which I have seen which are not put into 29 evidence, nor is it not materially different except on 30 grounds of convenience if a witness would say if she 31 had taken the broadest approach I mentioned earlier 32 that I relied upon a great collection of learning. 33 For that reason it's my judgment, which I think is 34 consistent with what has happened at this trial, to 35 allow counsel to put before the court in convenient 36 form a broader collection of the material or the 37 underlying material upon which the witness says she 38 relies, and I think that no substantial prejudice 39 results from that. It may be used in argument for 40 good or bad by either side. It may be that the 41 material will be found in argument that there is 42 nothing there which hasn't been mentioned in her 43 report which shows her report is not supportable, or 44 it might on the other hand show that the report is 45 indeed supportable and will therefore assist me in 46 arriving at -- at what I hope will be the right 47 conclusion. I don't think the defence is seriously 13085 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) Ruling by the Court In chief by Mr. Rush prejudiced by the ambiguity of the letter which conveyed this information to counsel. I'm prepared to allow it to be put in evidence for the limited purpose that has been mentioned today, and in connection with other exhibits of like kind. That is those that are put forward as information upon which the witness has relied upon in reaching her opinion. What is the suggestion, Mr. Rush, that they be marked as two exhibits? MR. RUSH: Yes. I should point out, my lord, that the volume that I gave for photocopy, my volume, also includes the Gitksan interviews which were disclosed on November the 14th, and I hadn't intended on those being marked, but I just noted on the spine of mine that it was copied as well. And they can be extracted from that volume, but yes. THE COURT: Which volume is that, the November 10th or November 15th? MR. RUSH: Yes. Within the larger of the two volumes I included the disclosures of November the 10th and November the 14th. THE COURT: All right. MR. RUSH: The thinner of the two volumes is the November 15th disclosure. So I would -- I wish to ask the witness a couple of questions about these, but subject to the extracting of those other ones. THE COURT: All right. Can that be quickly done or done on the morning adjournment? MR. RUSH: I think it can be done very quickly. THE COURT: Mr. Mackenzie. MR. MACKENZIE: I submit that these be marked with our being able to confirm we did receive them, because Mr. Rush is not giving us a copy. He's telling us all, and we believe him, of course, that this is what he sent us in November. THE COURT: Well, you may certainly speak to the matter if you make a discovery along those lines. MR. MACKENZIE: Thank you, my lord. THE COURT: Is the transmittal letter in the front of the book, Mr. Rush? MR. RUSH: Pardon me? THE COURT: Is the transmittal letter of November 10th in the opening of the book? Yes. Yes, it is. Yes. All right. MR. RUSH: THE COURT MR. RUSH: Q Now, Dr. Mills, if you wouldn't mind looking at the 13086 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Rush 1 larger of the two volumes. And would you just review 2 the listing of the interviews with the Wet'suwet'en 3 hereditary chiefs and the dates of those interviews on 4 pages two and three of the letter that accompanies 5 this. 6 A Yes. 7 Q And I would ask you if you have reviewed the contents 8 of the -- of the volume here previously to determine 9 if the contents of the volume were included as the 10 listing on pages two and three indicate? 11 A Yes. There seems to be one slight extraneous thing. 12 THE COURT: Which one is slightly extraneous? 13 A I don't recognize this writ of summons that appears in 14 it. 15 MR. RUSH: Neither do I. 16 THE COURT: I'm sure there's a writ of summons here somewhere. 17 MR. MACKENZIE: Did you say -- your lordship mentioned a big 18 scoop. 19 MR. RUSH: It looks like an action started by one of my 20 associates. 21 THE COURT: Nothing personal I hope, Mr. Rush. 22 MR. RUSH: I don't know any of the parties there. 23 THE COURT: No, I'm sorry, Mr. Rush. 24 MR. RUSH: Maybe you better just flip through the other ones and 25 see if there are any other important matters. 26 THE COURT: You've been served, Ms. Koenigsberg. You better put 27 in an appearance. 28 MR. KOENIGSBERG: It will take more than this to get me on the 29 record, my lord. 3 0 MR. RUSH: 31 Q Dr. Mills, can you confirm that these are the 32 interviews with the Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs 33 that you reviewed in preparation for your opinion 34 report? 35 A Yes. 36 Q In part. This isn't the total amount. I have the 37 next volume to refer you to. 38 A Yes. 39 Q And these interviews were translated and transcribed? 40 A That's correct. 41 Q All right. And would you look at the second of the 42 two volumes, please. 43 THE COURT: That one will be 948. 44 THE REGISTRAR: 948. 45 THE COURT: For the limited purpose I've mentioned. 46 47 13087 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 THE COURT: MR. RUSH: Q A Q MR. A Q A Q A RUSH: THE COURT (EXHIBIT 948: Volume 1 of Interviews with Hereditary Chiefs) : This one's November 15th. The next one is November 15th. And there's a transmittal letter setting out a number of interviews of Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs on specific dates. Would you review that thinner volume, Dr. Mills, please? M'hm. If you'll just have a look at the first page of the transmittal letter. Have you reviewed the interviews that are contained in this volume? Yes, I have. And can you confirm that these were interviews that you reviewed in preparation of the opinion that you have tendered? Yes. And are these interviews of Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs that were transcribed and translated? Yes. I don't recall if Margaret Pierre has a chief's name. Okay, please. : 949. Thank you. May that be the next exhibit, THE REGISTRAR: 949. (EXHIBIT 949: Volume 2 of Interviews with Hereditary Chiefs) THE COURT: Will you be wanting to extract the exhibit, Mr. Mackenzie, for comparison purposes 9 MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE MACKENZIE: Yes, my lord. Thank you, very much. COURT: Yes. I think that's reasonable. RUSH: Q Now, Dr. Mills, would you please turn to volume 1 of the volumes. The first volume that has been signed. Yes. REGISTRAR: This one. RUSH: Not of the interview reports. I don't wish to refer to them. Thank you. Now, my lord, I provided you with a tab divider for the notes that were tendered yesterday as tab 8. Yes. And I neglected to get the exhibit number for that. COURT RUSH: REGISTRAR: 929. 130? A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. MR. THE THE THE COURT RUSH: COURT RUSH: COURT RUSH: Q A Q A A Q A Q A RUSH: REGISTRAR: COURT: 95 0 REGISTRAR: : 929. 929. : Yes. Thank you. And I've also inserted a new tab 9. : Yes. I'm going to direct the witness' attention to that. It's the last tab in that binder, Dr. Mills. Would you, please, turn your attention to that. Do you see that? I do. Can you identify what's contained in that tab for us, please? Yes. This is a letter from Father Le Jacq to the bishop dated November 19, 1875, and it's the source of a quote that I used in my report. And I'll just ask you to pause there. Is the translated version of that source found at page 90 of the opinion? Yes, it is. All right. And if you turn, please, to the fourth page along which is marked 4378 at the top is the portion which you translated, and is found at page 90 of your report, is that portion in the middle paragraph of the French version? Yes, it is. Okay. And can you confirm for his lordship that this letter was obtained by you at the Oblate Archives in Ottawa? Yes. Thank you. May that be the next exhibit, please. It will be 950. Tab 9 of the book, my lord. (EXHIBIT 950: Letter from Father Le Jacq to bishop dtd. Nov.19, 1875) MR. RUSH: Thank you. THE COURT: Do you want to take the morning adjournment, Mr. Rush? MR. RUSH: Thank you. THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court will recess. 13089 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Rush 1 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED) 2 3 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 4 a true and accurate transcript of the 5 proceedings herein to the best of my 6 skill and ability. 7 8 9 10 Peri McHale, Official Reporter 11 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 13090 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Rush 1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT) 2 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. 3 MR. RUSH: 4 Q Yes, my lord. I wonder if we could place before the 5 witness, Madam Registrar, the last two exhibits, 6 Exhibits 948 and 949, the interviews with the 7 hereditary chiefs. 8 Dr. Mills, with reference to previous historic and 9 ethnographic literature, I asked you to assess the 10 strengths and weaknesses of the literature. And I 11 wonder if you would -- if you can comment on the 12 strengths and weaknesses of the corpus of the 13 interviews of the hereditary chiefs, which have been 14 marked Exhibits 948 and 949 in these proceedings? 15 A The strengths of these reports is that they -- they 16 represent a large body of interviews with Wet'suwet'en 17 people asking about specific information, and it's 18 recorded. It's sort of the opposite of Jenness 19 weaknesses, where Jenness doesn't give native terms 20 for a place or a thing or mention who he's 21 interviewed. These land claims transcripts all 22 mention those things. But it -- one difficulty is 23 that if you don't happen to know Wet'suwet'en, 24 sometimes if you're reading through them, in some of 25 them there'll be large -- or passages -- frequent 26 passages that are in Wet'suwet'en, which if you don't 27 know the language, it doesn't mean a great deal to 28 you. It's good to have that material recorded, but it 29 means that it's easier to read them if you have 30 someone who can tell you what they mean. I began 31 reviewing these transcripts when I was still resident 32 in Vancouver and after seeing that frequently there 33 will be passages like that, I saved it until I got to 34 Moricetown and could ask what those passages meant. 35 Q Are there other strengths or weaknesses that you 36 noted? 37 A Well, as an interview technique, these were tape 38 recorded. The tape recorder was going and capturing 39 everything that was said. And these transcriptions 40 reflect that. They have not been edited down in any 41 way. Typically when people do interviews, they will 42 take notes often of the answers to the questions they 43 ask and exclude kind of extraneous material that may 44 come up in the course of an interview, the sort of the 45 passing of the time of day kind of exchange that 46 inevitably takes place. And these -- these 47 transcripts include all of that as well. In a certain 13091 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Rush 1 way it's a strength as well. It shows what's 2 important to the Wet'suwet'en, all these side 3 exchanges, et cetera. But in terms of a focused 4 interview, sometimes they wander a bit, but they're 5 very good. It's an excellent corpus of material. 6 We're fortunate to have Jenness and this is a very 7 good corpus of material as well. 8 Q Dr. Mills, if you will please look at Volume 3 of the 9 first set of volumes I placed before you. Would you 10 please turn to Tab 30 in that volume? This is -- this 11 contains in part page 22, a short monograph by Jenness 12 entitled "The Ancient Education of a Carrier Indian" 13 and it's dated 1929. Did you refer to this monograph 14 in the course of the preparation of your opinion? 15 A I did. 16 MR. RUSH: May that be marked as an exhibit, my lord? 17 THE REGISTRAR: 951. 18 MR. RUSH: For convenience purposes I'm only directing the 19 witness' attention to pages 22 to 27. Everything is 20 extraneous. And those are the only passages of 21 interest, I think. 22 THE COURT: All right. Well, then it's only pages 22 to 27 that 23 will be Exhibit 951. 24 (EXHIBIT 951: Tab 30 - "The Ancient Education of a 25 Carrier Indian - D. Jenness) 2 6 MR. RUSH: 27 Q And, Dr. Mills, would you also turn to Tab 35? This 28 is apparently an article by Father Morice and dated 29 1933 entitled "Carrier Onomatology". Did you make 30 reference to this article in the course of preparing 31 your opinion? 32 A I did. 33 MR. RUSH: Thank you. Can that be an exhibit, my lord? 34 THE COURT: 952. 35 THE REGISTRAR: 952. 36 (EXHIBIT 952: Tab 35 - "Carrier Onomatology" - G. 37 Morice) 38 THE COURT: What does onomatology mean? 39 THE WITNESS: System of naming. 40 THE COURT: Naming places or persons or both? 41 THE WITNESS: Both. 42 MR. RUSH: 43 Q And, finally, Dr. Mills, at Tab 45, this is a document 44 apparently written by Father Morice and dated 1893 45 called "Under the Transactions of the Canadian 46 Institute. Notes on the Western Denes". Did you have 47 occasion to refer to this in the course of the 13092 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. THE THE MR. MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. MR. MR. MR. THE MR. MR. THE THE THE MR. THE MR. THE preparation of your opinion? A Yes, I did. RUSH: Can that be the next exhibit, please? REGISTRAR: 953. COURT: 953. (EXHIBIT 953: Tab 45 - "Notes of the Western Denes" - G. Morice) RUSH: Q Now, my lord, I've endeavoured to obtain a copy of Jenness 1930 and I have not been able to obtain a copy for your lordship, but apparently it is out of the library at U.B.C. and I'm trying to obtain it. I, however, would like you -- like the Court to reserve a number for the monograph written by Jenness in 1930. Reference has been made to it in the course of the body of the opinion on several occasions. A It's Morice, not Jenness. RUSH: Excuse me. Morice. COURT: Not Jenness? RUSH: No. It's Morice 1930. COURT: 1930? RUSH: Yes. COURT: All right. MACKENZIE: My lord, I think we have that copy and we'll be pleased to get it back to the library so Mr. Rush can get it out immediately. RUSH: I had my suspicions about where it was, but I -- MACKENZIE: Apparently a lot of pressure has been applied. I learned that this morning. RUSH: Not enough to work. COURT: Are you overdue, Mr. Mackenzie? Don't answer that question. Exhibit 954 number will be reserved. RUSH: Thank you. (EXHIBIT 954: Reserved) RUSH: And, my lord, I'd like to have Dr. Mills' opinion marked as the next exhibit. REGISTRAR: We reserved a number for it. COURT: What number? REGISTRAR: 906. (EXHIBIT 906: Report of A. Mills) MACKENZIE: Yes. That is subject to the objections that — or in light of the objections that we stated on Monday morning. COURT: Oh, yes. RUSH: Those are my questions for Dr. Mills. Thank you. COURT: Thank you. Mr. MacKenzie, Ms. Koenigsberg? Who's first? Mr. MacKenzie. 13093 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie COURT: Are we going to need these three large volumes, Mr. Mackenzie? MACKENZIE: The volumes of the plaintiff's documents, my lord? COURT: Yes. MACKENZIE: Yes, my lord. I've handed your lordship an empty binder, following Mr. Willms' practice of having the documents inserted -- COURT: Yes. MACKENZIE: — as they're identified. And the first document that should be inserted is the "Social Anthropology" article that I referred to during Dr. Mills' cross-examination, my lord. COURT: That was by Evans Pritchard. MACKENZIE: Yes. COURT: That was marked Exhibit 904. REGISTRAR: So may the book be marked? Are we going to mark the book 904 and then 904-1? MACKENZIE: We can mark the exhibit book as Exhibit 904 subject to your lordship's views, and the tabs will be marked as exhibits under that number. COURT: Well, I'm not sure. MACKENZIE: Oh, I'm sorry, my lord. This is going to cause a slight problem. COURT: Well, we're out of chronological sequence. MACKENZIE: Yes. That's right. COURT: I think it doesn't -- it doesn't do any harm if this document is in twice, and I think we'll just mark the book as the next exhibit, 955, and we'll make that document which is 904 then to 905-1. REGISTRAR: 955-1. (EXHIBIT 955: AGBC Cross-exam book) (EXHIBIT 955-1: Tab 1 - "Social Anthropology" - E. Pritchard) 3S-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACKENZIE: Q Now, Dr. Mills, you told Mr. Rush that you commenced your library research on -- in March, 1985; is that correct? A For this project. Q Yes. And you arrived in Moricetown for the first time related to this project in July, 1985? A That's correct. Q And we have -- Exhibit 905 is the contract you signed on March 13, 1985? A Um-hum. That's correct. Q Did you sign that contract in Vancouver or in Moricetown? 1 THE 2 3 MR. 4 5 THE 6 MR. 7 8 9 THE 10 MR. 11 12 13 14 THE 15 MR. 16 THE 17 THE 18 19 MR. 20 21 22 THE 23 MR. 24 25 THE 26 MR. 27 THE 28 29 30 31 THE 32 33 34 35 CRO 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 13094 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 A In Hazelton. 2 Q In Hazelton. So you had been in the area prior to 3 your arrival of July, 1985? 4 A I came up to Hazelton to discuss the project and to 5 see if it was something that I wanted to undertake and 6 something that they wanted to have -- they wanted to 7 have use me. 8 Q And was that meeting before March, 1985? 9 A It was March, 1985. It was the date that's on that 10 contract. 11 Q Is that the first meeting you had to discuss the 12 research project? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And who did you meet with at that time? 15 A I met with Victor Jim and Marvin George and Don Ryan 16 and Neil Sterritt came briefly and Richard Overstall 17 and Susan Marsden, and I think Peter Grant came in 18 briefly. 19 Q Is that the first contact that you had with the 20 representatives of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en people 21 related to this research contract? 22 A Yes. I'm sorry. What was your question? 23 Q Is that the first contact that you had related to this 24 research project? 25 A Well, I went there because I received a telephone call 26 asking if I would be interested. 27 Q And that was from Don Ryan? 28 A That's right. 29 Q When did you receive that call, just approximately? 30 A It was probably February. It was in the month of 31 February. 32 THE COURT: Of that year? 33 THE WITNESS: Of '85, that's right. 34 MR. MACKENZIE: 35 Q Well, you -- there are some field notes and feast 36 notes dated January, '85. Is that a typographical 37 error, Matt Michell feast? 38 A I think what had happened is just over the change to 39 the new year, I had failed to note that I should be 40 writing 1986. I'm sorry. 41 Q So we can change the dates on the Matt Michell feast 42 note to January, 1986? 43 A Yes. If indeed -- I haven't looked to verify what you 44 say. I'm not sure if it's a mistake that's in the 45 table of contents or in my notes themselves. 4 6 Q And we can change the date on the Charlie Austin 47 speech at that feast to January, 1986? 13095 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 A Yes. If it says '85, then it would be January, '86, 2 that's correct. 3 Q And did you sign the contract the same day that you 4 arrived for the meeting? 5 A I think so. 6 Q So it was quite a -- it was a fairly quick decision 7 after the meeting or during the meeting? 8 A Well, as I said, I had heard a description of the job 9 previously in February. 10 Q And at this time had you received the fellowship from 11 the Social Science and Humanities Research Council? 12 A No. I didn't know that I was going to be receiving 13 that. I made my application, but -- 14 Q You had applied to conduct research into reincarnation 15 with the Wet'suwet'en people; is that correct? 16 A Beaver and Gitksan. 17 Q The three peoples? 18 A Um-hum. Originally I asked to -- my proposal was to 19 do it with Beaver and Gitksan and then when I received 20 the grant, I asked for permission to include the 21 Wet'suwet'en. 22 Q And when did you receiver the grant, just 23 approximately? 24 A I think it began in October. 25 Q October, 1985? 26 A Yes. I guess that's correct. 27 Q Now, during this meeting was it apparent to you that 28 the people -- I'm speaking about the meeting in March 29 in Hazelton. Was it apparent to you that the people 30 there had reviewed any of the work -- the writings 31 that you had done before that time? 32 A No. I'm not sure. They didn't make reference to any. 33 I don't recall them making reference to any. 34 Q Is it fair to say that they contacted you because they 35 were aware of your previous research generally with 36 the Beaver Indians? 37 A Yes. 38 Q Is it fair to say that they contacted you because of 39 the extensive field work that you and your -- well, 40 that you had done over the previous 20 years with the 41 Beaver Indians in northeastern British Columbia? 42 A They wanted to find someone who is knowledgeable about 43 Athabascans. 44 Q And at the meeting you explained what your experience 45 was, had been with the Beaver Indians? 46 A I don't think that that was an issue. 47 Q Is it fair to say that, to your knowledge, they wanted 13096 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 someone who was familiar with the Athabascan Indians 2 and someone who understood the Indians' world view? 3 Is that a fair statement? 4 A They wanted someone to assess the Wet'suwet'en 5 material in particular and they wanted someone who 6 would -- was grounded in the literature for the 7 Athabascans. 8 Q And so you agreed to conduct a research project in a 9 manner satisfactory to the tribal council? 10 A No. I wouldn't -- that doesn't describe the -- them 11 at all, what was said. They told me that they had 12 undertaken a court action, and they told me that they 13 would like me to review the material that exists about 14 Carriers and Wet'suwet'en in particular. They told me 15 that they had -- there had been previous research done 16 on the land claims transcripts, and they invited me to 17 do research and to assist the lawyers in understanding 18 the Wet'suwet'en system and to write an opinion 19 report. And I said I had indeed reviewed the 20 literature on the Carrier in the course of doing my 21 doctoral dissertation. I hadn't reviewed it from the 22 point of view of land tenure, but I would be glad to 23 look at it from that perspective, but I reserve the 24 right to write exactly what I found and what I found 25 to be true. And they said that's fine. 26 Q So you disagree with my characterization of your 27 agreement? I said you agreed to conduct the research 28 in a manner satisfactory to the tribal council. You 29 disagree with that statement? 30 A Yes. You make it sound as if they were dictating what 31 I was to find, and that's very far from the case. 32 MR. MACKENZIE: I'm sorry. I didn't mean to make it sound any 33 particular way. I'm just reading from your contract, 34 and that's Exhibit 905. So maybe we could look at 35 that now, please. 3 6 THE COURT: Volume 1? Is it Volume 1? 37 THE REGISTRAR: Tab 2. 3 8 THE COURT: Thank you. 39 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. Tab 2, my lord. Does your lordship have 40 that reference? 41 THE COURT: Yes. 42 MR. MACKENZIE: 43 Q And reading on page 2, section 2.1, the contract 44 reads: "In a manner satisfactory to the tribal 45 council, the consultant agrees to provide the tribal 46 council with the following services". So that was 47 clearly a clause in the contract that you signed, Dr. 13097 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 Mills? 2 A Well, as I stated, I made it very clear to the tribal 3 council that what I wrote would be to the best of my 4 ability following the understanding that I had of what 5 represented an intelligent opinion about the body of 6 work and that I would indeed conduct research to form 7 my own opinion. 8 Q And you agreed to provide research related to an 9 ethnographic account of the Wet'suwet'en houses? 10 A Could you repeat that? Ethnographic? 11 Q Yes. You agreed to provide research related to an 12 ethnographic account of the Wet'suwet'en houses? 13 A You mean to conduct research? 14 Q Yes. 15 A Yes. 16 Q And also geographic account of the Wet'suwet'en 17 houses? 18 A I was not expected to do much on geography because 19 they had cartographers, Marvin George, et cetera. 20 Much of this research -- that research had been done 21 previously by Alfred Joseph, and I was not asked to -- 22 to do that work. I was given access to the work so 23 that I could review it. 24 Q And you were asked to provide and to do a historic 25 account of the Wet'suwet'en houses? 26 A To look -- my understanding was that I was to look at 27 all the literature that existed and -- and that 28 combined with any research that I would undertake 29 would form the basis. 30 Q You agree with me that that is the description of the 31 research, ethnographic, geographic and historical? 32 That's contained in the contract, Exhibit 905, section 33 2.1, subsection (a)? Do you see that? 34 A I see it written there. 35 Q And so one of the assumptions was that there were 36 Wet'suwet'en houses, correct? 37 A Oh, yes. It's not -- I wouldn't -- assumption makes 38 it sound as if that was based on no basis. In fact, 39 the Wet'suwet'en organized themselves by houses in 40 notes reported in Jenness long before. It was not as 41 if it was an unfounded assumption on which they were 42 basing this concept. 43 Q And your contract was based on the assumption that 44 there was an entity called the Wet'suwet'en, correct? 45 A Yes. 46 Q And it was based on the assumption that there were 12 47 Wet'suwet'en houses, correct? 1309? A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 A Basically. 2 Q Now, you were aware that the term Wet'suwet'en is a 3 relatively recent use and say in the 1980's? 4 A No, it's not. 5 Q But in your previous writing you always referred to 6 these people as Carrier, didn't you? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Or as the Bulkley River Carrier? 9 A That's right. 10 Q And that's how Jenness refers to them? 11 A That's right. It's only 1980 if you take it from — 12 from some literature points of view, but the term 13 existed for the Wet'suwet'en. It's recorded, I think, 14 by Morice as well. So it was -- but the general 15 anthropological usage was to just use Bulkley River 16 Carrier. 17 Q In fact that's what the tribal council called 18 themselves up until the 1980's, the Gitksan Carrier 19 Tribal Council, correct? 20 A I think so. 21 Q And the use of the word Carrier reflects the 22 relationship to the greater Carrier nation or the 23 greater Carrier-speaking people, including the Babine 24 people and the people at Fort St. James and Stuart 25 Lake, doesn't it? 26 A I'm not sure how -- who was responsible for that 27 title, the Gitksan Carrier, whether it was the 28 Department of Indian Affairs or who began that usage. 29 Q I'm sorry. I misstated the question. What I meant to 30 say was that the use of the word Carrier to describe 31 the people in the Bulkley River valley reflected their 32 relationship to the greater Carrier-speaking group of 33 people, the Babine Lake area and the Stuart Lake and 34 Fort St. James, et cetera; is that a fair statement? 35 A I don't think it characterizes it quite accurately. 36 The reason that they were called Carrier was not so 37 much because it reflected their -- their interaction. 38 Is that the word you used? 39 Q The relations? 40 A The relations, only because it reflected relations. 41 It was also a linguistic category because they were 42 all recognized as speaking an Athabascan language, 43 whereas the relations obviously went equally or more 44 so -- far more so to their neighbours, the Gitksan and 45 Nishga. But also, as I said in my evidence in chief, 46 it's almost a misnomer because the linguistic 47 variations within the group that's called Carrier are 13099 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 very deep, and Morice was the first person to note 2 this, but somehow this label still remained in place 3 until fairly recent times. 4 Q And you -- as you say, you were aware that your 5 research was to be conducted in the -- in relation to 6 a land claims litigation case which had already 7 commenced? 8 A Yes. I was told that. 9 Q And you were made aware that there was a body of 10 interviews which you refer to as the land claims tapes 11 and interview? 12 A Yes. 13 Q All the data that you were to produce would become the 14 property of the tribal council? 15 A I'm not sure that that was mentioned to me when I 16 first went up there, but I subsequently learned that 17 the report, et cetera would become the property of the 18 Wet'suwet'en, yes. 19 Q And you were to provide original records of all your 20 data and interviews as well as your report to be filed 21 with the tribal council? 22 A They never specified that. 23 Q Referring to the contract, Exhibit 905, page 5, 24 section 13. And that paragraph reads: 25 26 "All surveys, reports, drawings, 27 calculations, designs, plans, specifications 28 and other data, information and material 29 collected, compiled, drawn and produced 30 during the performance of the work are the 31 property of the tribal council and the 32 copywrite therein vests in the tribal 33 council." 34 35 A Yes. It's there. 36 Q And with respect to the research you were to provide, 37 services you were to provide, you were directed to 38 include in your research sources the tapes, 39 transcripts and notes of interviews with Wet'suwet'en 40 informants in possession of the tribal council? 41 A Yes. 42 Q And you were directed also to -- 43 A Are you quoting? 44 Q Yes. From section 2 on page 2 of the contract, 45 Exhibit 905. 46 A I never had recourse to the tapes because they were in 47 Wet'suwet'en. 13100 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 Q Do you distinguish between transcripts of interviews 2 and notes of interviews as indicated at section 2 on 3 page 2 of the contract, Exhibit 905? 4 A I think that the notes of interviews refer to notes 5 that Alfred Joseph took of place names when he would 6 go out with an informant. He had sometimes a keying 7 system where he would write down names and places. 8 That's -- there aren't interviews that are separate 9 from the land claims tapes other than the list of 10 place names, to my knowledge. 11 Q Now, we were speaking about your data. Did you in 12 fact file all your data and information with the 13 tribal council? 14 A I think so. 15 Q And has that all been produced, to your knowledge, to 16 us? 17 A To my knowledge. 18 Q And you were also directed to review the published and 19 unpublished papers and notes of Diamond Jenness, 20 correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And your evidence was that you searched for those, for 23 such notes, the unpublished papers. You were unable 24 to find any? 25 A I didn't find any. 26 Q But you were interested in seeking -- or seeing those 27 unpublished notes in order to amplify or -- amplify 28 the observations in Jennesss' 1943 work and in the -- 29 his 1934 works, "Myths of the Carrier People"? 30 A That's correct. 31 Q Your contract was from March 11, 1985 to September 30, 32 1985, correct? 33 A That's what's written here. 34 Q But you in fact stayed in the valley. As you said, 35 you didn't leave until summer of 1988; is that 36 correct? 37 A That's correct. 38 Q Did you have another contract? 3 9 A No, I didn't. 40 Q Were you paid after the -- after September, 1985 for 41 your services? 42 A Yes, I was. 43 Q And was there any basis for that payment other than 44 this contract that we have here, Exhibit 905, to your 45 knowledge? 46 A No. There was never any written statement. This 47 contract also doesn't set out that I was to do an 13101 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 opinion report, but that was -- I don't know if it 2 ever got in writing, but that was made manifest in 3 that same March 15th meeting. I agreed to do both an 4 opinion report and research. 5 Q You were required to produce the results of your 6 research in a binder form. Did you do that? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And is that different from the report that you have 9 presented today? 10 A Yes. 11 Q What -- in what way is it different? 12 A I was asked to assemble the material to assist the 13 council for the Wet'suwet'en in organizing the 14 material that exists, Jenness, to whatever extent 15 Morice was relevant. It didn't turn out to be very 16 relevant in terms of what it said about the houses in 17 a form that would be helpful for them to understand 18 what was going on. 19 Q Do you have any other -- do you have any 20 correspondence with the tribal council -- did you have 21 any correspondence relating to the terms of your 22 research agreement other than this contract, Exhibit 23 905? 24 A I don't recall any. 25 Q Now, is it fair to say that the inclusion of Diamond 26 Jenness in your required sources in this contract 27 reflects the importance of Jenness in the field of 28 Carrier ethnography -- ethnology, I mean? 29 A Yes. He's one of the few sources of Wet'suwet'en 30 ethnography, um-hum. 31 Q Now, you were also required to conduct interviews and 32 other field work with the Wet'suwet'en, correct? 33 A I was given quite a bit of latitude. It wasn't as if 34 I was required to. I was asked to do two things. One 35 was to help organize the material that basically 36 already existed for a format that could assist 37 counsel, and the other was to form an opinion, and the 38 opinion was separate from this other task that they 39 wanted me to perform and that was left at my 40 discretion. 41 Q And did you -- have you prepared a list of all the 42 informants that you interviewed? 43 A I don't think I've ever prepared such a list. 44 Q Do we now have all the notes that -- of interviews 45 with informants that you conducted, to your knowledge? 4 6 A I think you do. 47 Q But, as you have said, there were other communications 13102 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 and information sessions that you did not record? 2 A I didn't record absolutely everything that was said, 3 and also I conducted information after I made the 4 report. 5 Q Now, is it fair to say that -- to your knowledge that 6 the reason the tribal council retained your services 7 is they were satisfied that you were sympathetic to 8 the Indians' world view? 9 A No. I don't think they cared. I hadn't finished the 10 task when this contract finished. Therefore, I needed 11 to continue it to finish it. 12 Q Actually what I meant was when the tribal council 13 first retained you, to your knowledge they were 14 retaining you because they felt that you were 15 sympathetic to the world view of the Indian people in 16 British Columbia? 17 A They never made that manifest. 18 Q Would you agree with me that that is reflected from 19 your earlier writings? 20 A Sympathetic? 21 Q Yes. 22 A To the world view? 23 Q Yes. 24 A I had done some work that indicated that I was -- 25 tried to understand it if that's what you mean. 26 Q Well, is it fair to say that in the contact and any 27 conflict between the Beaver Indian and western 28 civilization, you would be sympathetic to the Beaver 29 Indians' viewpoint? 30 A Could you give us an example? 31 Q Yes. Look at some excerpts from your thesis. Now, 32 I'm showing you the cover page of a thesis entitled 33 "The Beaver Indian Prophet Dance and Related Movements 34 Among North American Indians", a thesis presented by 35 Antonia Curtze Mills at Harvard University, October, 36 1981. Now, that is the cover page from your thesis, 37 correct? 38 A I think it is. 39 MR. MACKENZIE: And I have included some excerpts from that 40 thesis with that cover page. And, my lord, I tender 41 that as the next exhibit. 42 MR. RUSH: I wonder if my friend could just indicate for the 43 sake of the record the length of the thesis. 44 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 45 MR. RUSH: It seems to be an indication towards 200 pages in 46 length? 47 THE COURT: It's roughly 214 in the bibliography. 13103 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 MR. RUSH: Yes. I see that. 2 MR. MACKENZIE: 3 Q I have a full volume here. I'm going to put the full 4 volume before Dr. Mills. The full volume of your 5 thesis, including the bibliography, goes to 224 pages; 6 is that correct? 7 A Seems to be. 8 MR. MACKENZIE: My lord, I tender that as the next exhibit. 9 THE COURT: Yes. All right. 10 THE REGISTRAR: Be 955-2. 11 (EXHIBIT 955-2: Tab 2 - "The Beaver Indian Prophet 12 Dance" - A. Mills) 13 MR. MACKENZIE: And perhaps Dr. Mills could have a copy. Does 14 his lordship have a copy? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 MR. MACKENZIE: 17 Q Now, this thesis dealt with the prophet dance with 18 respect to several North American Indian groups, 19 didn't it? 20 A Yes. 21 Q But by this time you had had several years' experience 22 of field work with the Beaver Indians? 23 A Yes. More than several. 24 Q So the Beaver Indians were part of the subject of your 25 thesis? 26 A Yes. 27 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Mr. Mackenzie. Did you call it prophet 28 dance? 29 MR. MACKENZIE: Prophet. That is p-r-o-p-h-e-t, not a reference 30 to the cash economy. 31 THE COURT: I know what you mean. 32 MR. MACKENZIE: 33 Q Now, I refer in this -- these excerpts to page 2 of 34 your thesis. And now this has been marked as Exhibit 35 955-2. And in this -- on this page you were speaking 36 about -- you're in the midst of speaking about your 37 extensive field work with the Beaver Indians, is that 38 fair to say? 39 A Yes. 40 Q And then the first paragraph at the bottom of the page 41 2 reads: 42 43 "This long period of time has been 44 indispensable for beginning to learn what 45 the Beaver Indian prophet tradition means. 46 The process has no foreseeable end point. I 47 continue to find that my understanding 13104 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 changes like a kaleidoscope shaken, with a 2 new pattern emerging as my old way of 3 looking at the situation changes, the 4 structure that holds my understanding 5 crumbles, and almost immediately some pieces 6 of a new structure emerge." 7 8 And that's what you wrote in your thesis? 9 A I did. 10 Q And that's your view today? 11 A That -- that -- yes. I'd like to explain, because I'm 12 not sure if you understand correctly what I meant 13 there; is that in trying to understand another 14 person -- peoples' world view, you are always blinded 15 by the -- by the vantage point with which you arrive 16 and then -- at first I found that I was expecting 17 things to be in a very different format. They would 18 instruct me and then I would begin to understand 19 something about -- human beings are good at sort of 20 taking pieces, making them into a new kind of format. 21 Then they would instruct me further and I would find 22 that this understanding I had arrived at was incorrect 23 as well, and the process keeps on going like that 24 until you begin to learn what it is they really -- 25 really are saying. 26 Q And you continued to learn over 20 years with the 27 Beaver Indians? 28 A I try to. 29 Q And then you continue on page 3 of your thesis: 30 31 "The structure I brought to the Beaver 32 Indians could not contain their thought so 33 those structures have been abandoned for new 34 ones which I am aware still do not duplicate 35 exactly the Beaver Indians ones, although 36 they can encompass more of the Beaver 37 thought than the original ones." 38 39 And that was your view in 1981? 40 A Right. I'm not saying that I have abandoned being my 41 own personhood or understood assumptions of my own 42 culture. That would be a fallacious interpretation of 43 this passage. But in terms of trying to understand 44 the Beaver Indians, I have tried, to the best of my 45 ability, to discern what it is that they are saying, 46 and that it has taken a concerted effort over many 47 years. And as I said here, I -- the end point is not 13105 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 in sight. I do not pretend to fully comprehend what 2 they mean when they say many things. 3 Q I take it from your remarks that your view continues 4 to be one that you expressed in this passage? 5 A That I'm trying to learn -- 6 Q Yes. 7 A Yes. I would like to learn what they are thinking. 8 Q And the next paragraph you continue: 9 10 "It has taken such a long time to absorb 11 what has been assimulated because the 12 subject is vast." 13 14 And that was your view in 1981? 15 A That's my opinion now as well. 16 Q And it's your opinion as well. Now, these comments 17 apply to your experience with the Wet'suwet'en 18 Indians, do they not? 19 A In some ways that -- I don't pretend to fully 20 understand the -- all that they say and mean as well, 21 yes. 22 Q On page 67 there's another passage to which I wish to 23 draw your attention, but before I do that I just want 24 to have -- ask you to agree with me that in response 25 to Mr. Rush's questions, you -- you did advise him 26 that during your field work with the Beaver Indians, 27 you reviewed their oral traditions in an attempt to 2 8 evaluate them? 29 A Yes. 30 Q And you were assisted in the interpretation of their 31 oral traditions by references to historical events if 32 they occurred in the tradition? 33 A Yes. 34 Q That would assist you to date the particular oral 35 tradition? 36 A Yes. 37 Q And that's a process that you describe in your thesis, 38 correct, for example at the first paragraph at the 39 bottom of page 67? And here you say: 40 41 "When did the first Beaver Indian Prophet 42 appear? It is difficult to pinpoint a time 43 from the stories of people for whom time is 44 as much mythic as calendric." 45 46 Now, that was your view in 1981? 47 A What I'm saying is that they don't say the first 13106 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 prophet appeared in 1793. That is not a concept that 2 they would use or could use or do use or did use. And 3 then I go on to pinpoint from whatever sources we have 4 when I think it occurred. I disagree with -- with an 5 presumption that was made by another anthropologist. 6 I -- on the basis, for one thing, of the genealogies I 7 had gathered. You ground this in whatever kind of way 8 you can. I also relied on Leslie Spier, who -- 9 Q S-p-i-e-r? 10 A S-p-i-e-r, yes, whose 1935 monograph is one of the 11 most significant works in this regard, which I also 12 reviewed in my thesis. 13 Q So it's fair to say that you still agree with the 14 views that you expressed here in 1981, which we just 15 read? 16 A I wouldn't like this passage to be taken out of 17 context. In looking at the oral traditions of -- of 18 people without a written tradition, anthropologists do 19 distinguish different kinds of accounts. There are 20 ones that seem to be more ancient. There are ones 21 that seem to reflect more recent events as well. It's 22 not as if one can't make some kind of chronology 23 without looking at the traditions of an oral people. 24 Q So subject to your qualifications which you've just 25 expressed, the views that we read in this passage on 26 page 67 are your views today? 27 A Well, with the proviso that the people themselves 28 differentiate between things that are very, you know, 29 distant and things that are more recent. 30 Q And you consider that genealogies are of great 31 assistance in evaluating the oral tradition? 32 A Sometimes they can be. 33 MR. MACKENZIE: And as you say, you take issue with Robin 34 Ridington, who you mentioned was your husband and a 35 fellow anthropologist, and you analyse this particular 36 oral tradition. Carry on page 68 until you get down 37 to the bottom of page 68. You say, the last four 38 words on page 68: 39 40 "... an examination of all the evidence 41 which forms Appendix I, indicates that the 42 Beaver Indian prophets began sometime in the 43 middle of the nineteenth century and that 44 the Cigne Chief of 1799 was not" this Indian 45 name "Makenunatene, known as the Sikanni 46 Chief." 47 13107 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 And you've actually carried out the evaulation process 2 by looking at historical events, haven't you? 3 THE COURT: Mr. Mackenzie, I haven't found what you read from 4 here. 5 MR. MACKENZIE: Bottom of page 68, my lord, the last four words 6 at the bottom. 7 THE COURT: "An examination". 8 MR. MACKENZIE: 9 Q Yes. And I've just included Appendix I, which is 10 pages 168 to 173. Can you confirm, Dr. Mills, that 11 that's Appendix I and it shows your process of 12 evaluating the oral tradition by comparing it, for 13 example, with historical events? 14 A I'm not sure what you mean by oral tradition in this 15 sense. It's -- the Beaver Indians are very clear. 16 They aren't claiming themselves a particular date for 17 their first prophets either. I mean they recognize 18 that the first prophets came in relatively recent 19 times. So it's not -- I'd like you to differentiate 20 that from the oral tradition, which is the body of 21 stories that they relate. There's -- there's no 22 confusion in the Beaver Indians' minds whatsoever 23 about -- about the general kind of time period. I'm 24 just trying to pinpoint it a little more specifically. 25 Q Yes. And you do that by referring to historical 26 events and different writing that you take into 27 account to come up with a date that is different from 28 Robin Ridington's date? 29 A Right. He had taken the name c-i-g-n-e and had 30 suggested that perhaps this word, which could be 31 pronounced cigne, suggests that an early fur trader 32 was talking about a Sikanni Indian, meant cigne in 33 French, swan, and since an early prophet, who's 34 correctly pronounced Makenunatane, was also identified 35 with swan, he thought perhaps this was the same 36 person. And I reviewed why I thought that there was 37 not much evidence that this could be the case. 38 Q And you did that by referring to historical events 39 which could be identified through the tradition? 40 A Yes. 41 MR. MACKENZIE: My lord, I've got a couple more references which 42 I can do in two minutes. 43 THE COURT: All right. 44 MR. MACKENZIE: Just finishing up the thesis here, page 189 45 here -- does your lordship have that reference? 4 6 THE COURT: 18 9? 47 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, my lord. And on — does your lordship have 1310? A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 that reference? 2 THE COURT: 18 9? 3 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes. 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 MR. MACKENZIE: 6 Q On that page you refer to the Carrier; is that 7 correct, Dr. Mills? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And in this -- this passage you say: 10 11 "The only public group rite (as opposed to 12 the Kyan curing ceremonies which are 13 restricted to the patients, the Kyanyuantan 14 and the kalullim society) mentioned for the 15 Carrier is the potlatch, of relatively 16 recent origin. The potlatch described by 17 Jenness is in fact the curing ceremony for a 18 potential member of the kalullim society, 19 someone suffering from a mild affliction of 2 0 kyan. The many day ceremony follows the 21 pattern elaborated on the Northwest Coast." 22 23 And that was the view that you expressed in 1981; is 24 that correct? 25 A It's obviously written here. I certainly stand 26 corrected in terms of thinking that the kyan -- the 27 curing ceremonies were more ancient than the potlatch. 28 I was led to this by having read Morice and Jenness, 29 and this was obviously before -- not obviously, but it 30 was indeed before I had reviewed Dyen and Aberle as 31 well. 32 MR. MACKENZIE: My lord, that would be a convenient — the 33 final -- sorry, my lord. 34 THE COURT: Yes. 35 MR. MACKENZIE: The final point is on page 214. 36 THE COURT: What is kyan, k-y-a-n? 37 MR. MACKENZIE: Sorry. 38 THE COURT: Mild affliction of kyan. 39 MR. MACKENZIE: 40 Q Dr. Mills — sorry. 41 A I'm sorry. 42 THE COURT: What is kyan, k-y-a-n? 43 THE WITNESS: It's sickness that afflicts — it's the name for a 44 kind of spiritual sickness -- 45 THE COURT: All right. 46 THE WITNESS: — that Jenness identifies. 47 THE COURT: Pardon? 13109 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 THE WITNESS: That Jenness identifies. 2 MR. MACKENZIE: 3 Q Just finally, can you agree with me that Irving 4 Goldman was one of the authors upon who you relied in 5 your thesis and referred to as appears on page 214? 6 A Yes. 7 MR. MACKENZIE: That completes that section, my lord. 8 THE COURT: Yes. All right. Thank you. Two o'clock, please. 9 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court will adjourn until two. 10 11 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED) 12 13 14 15 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 16 a true and accurate transcript of the 17 proceedings transcribed to the best 18 of my skill and ability. 19 20 21 22 Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter 23 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 13110 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON RECESS) 8 9 THE REGISTRAR: Ready to proceed, my lord. 10 THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Mackenzie. 11 MR. MACKENZIE: Thank you, my lord. 12 Q We reviewed some of your other writing before the 13 break -- before the noon hour, Dr. Mills. And can I 14 summarize. I asked you whether you were sympathetic 15 to the Indian world view, and can I ask you that 16 question a different way now. You'll agree with me 17 that as a result of your field work you have come to 18 the understanding that there are two different 19 realities, that of the Indian world view and that of 20 the white world view. Is that a fair statement? 21 A I don't think it even really took field work to know 22 that. That's an anthropological given. 23 Q The challenge for you and Robin Ridington was to 24 suspend the way of thinking of your white world view 25 to come and understand the Indian world view? 26 A Well, first of all, I don't speak for Robin Ridington. 2 7 Q No, I know you don't. 28 A I don't know how you can raise it. 29 Q Perhaps without interrupting you I can say you worked 30 with Robin Ridington for many, many years? 31 A From '64 until '72. 32 Q Yes. And fine, thank you. Would you continue your 33 comments? 34 A I would like to differentiate between this use of the 35 word that you're making use of, the word sympathetic 36 and the use of the word to comprehend. My goal was to 37 comprehend the Beaver Indian world view. That was one 38 of the things that I was attempting to do was to 39 understand what they meant when they said things. And 4 0 I think it is a leap to jump from my attempt to 41 understand what they said to call that sympathetic or 42 sympathy. Anthropologists typically try to understand 43 what the people that they are working with tell them, 44 as they ought to. 45 Q Well, you came to understand that for the Beaver 46 Indians, at least, the mythic reality lies within the 47 reality of everyday experience, doesn't it? 13111 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 A Yes. What white people term as myth provide some of 2 the background of their concept of how things work and 3 how things happen. But this term mythic is -- perhaps 4 needs some clarification itself. The word is often 5 used to refer to the traditions of other people. So 6 if we looked at ourselves from that point of view then 7 the oral traditions that were handed down in the 8 Judeo-Christian tradition would be called mythic and 9 then they get written down. So it's a term that 10 refers to the body of literature or body of oral 11 tradition of a people. Anthropologists these days try 12 to avoid the word mythic, because it has the 13 connotation of meaning it's somehow or other unreal, 14 and it's obvious to the people who hold it, and 15 anthropologists recognize that they do hold it. 16 Q And you came to understand that Indian time is 17 different from the white view of time? 18 A Well, obviously there is a difference in having an 19 oral tradition without a written record of when you 20 can note down that something happened in a specific 21 year and a specific century, but if you go very far 22 back in our own western tradition that -- the same 23 thing applies. There's a time before people have 24 written records and when dating is more difficult 25 because you can't pinpoint it to a specific year, but 26 anthropologists in looking at an oral tradition do 27 take a great deal of care in noting whether an account 28 seems to be of great antiquity, or speaking of 29 something that can be dated by some other means, or 30 referring to something that can be placed in time by 31 any other context. And it's not as if native peoples 32 make no distinctions in time either. They can equally 33 tell someone whether something happened relatively 34 recently, since fur trade, long before that, et 35 cetera. 36 Q Now, I've handed around and placed before you a front 37 page of a book entitled "Trail to Heaven" by Robin 38 Ridington. Now, this is the Robin Ridington that 39 we've been speaking about in our discussion so far, is 40 it not? 41 A I do think there's only one. 42 Q Yes. And you have read this book by Robin Ridington? 43 A Not in its entirety. 44 Q But you're aware that he published this book? 45 A Yes, I am. 4 6 Q And you will agree with me that Robin Ridington is 47 regarded as an eminent authority in British Columbia, 13112 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie and in North America as well, in the area of Athabascan and Beaver anthropology? A Yes. MR. MACKENZIE: My lord, I submit that as the next exhibit. THE REGISTRAR: 955-3. (EXHIBIT 955-3: Extract of book of Robin Ridington) MR. MACKENZIE: Q Now, this book that Robin Ridington wrote dealt to some extent with the experiences that you and he had during your field work with the Beaver Indians, didn't you? A As I say, I haven't read the book in its entirety. Perhaps you can point me to something, if you'd like. Q Perhaps you could answer the question. Do you know whether the book relates to the field work that you and your husband did with the Beaver Indians? I know that I -- I think it does. I think it does. Yes, it's a recent publication. I think it's just been published recently, has it not? There was a review of this in the paper just over the weekend, but I think it's just a recent publication. I'll get that for you. It's 1988. MR. RUSH: Thank you. MR. MACKENZIE: Q And on page -- I put in the introduction here. Introduction page XV, second paragraph, Dr. Ridington actually thanks you, Dr. Mills, for your contribution to the texts that appear in the book. Do you see that? A Which paragraph? Q It's the second paragraph on page XV. A Yes, I see that. Q So when he says texts he's talking about the oral traditions of the Beaver Indian that you and he collected over the years, isn't he? A The oral traditions? Q Yes. A Yes, I suppose so. Q On the first page of the introduction Dr. Ridington indicates that this is -- he commenced his anthropological field work in 1964. And he goes on to talk about his experiences with the Beaver Indians. And on page XI I'd like to draw your attention to the first paragraph -- the second paragraph, and Dr. Ridington says here "People in Western culture". See A Q 13113 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie that, second paragraph on XI? A Yes. MR. MACKENZIE: Does your lordship have that reference? THE COURT: Yes. MR. MACKENZIE: Q A Q A "People in Western culture, for instance, assume that we can know and experience events only after they have begun to take place in a physical world accessible to our senses. The Dunne-za assume, I came to learn, that events can take place only after people have known and experienced them in myths, dreams, and visions. Even their concept of person is different from ours. In Dunne-za reality, animals, winds, rocks, and natural forces are 'people.' Human people are continually in contact with these nonhuman persons. All persons continually bring the world into being through myths, dreams, and visions they share with one another. Western culture views 'myths' and 'dreams' as false and illusory. The Dunne-za experience myths and dreams as fundamental sources of knowledge." Do you agree with that? That -- that characterizes what? He's speaking about the Beaver Indians there. Oh, I think it's perhaps a bit overstated. The Beaver Indians don't presume to dream about absolutely every event. But I don't think that he -- I'm not sure that he meant that one was to take it literally that they did dream absolutely every event. They certainly do dream about many significant events. And on the page XII at the end of the first paragraph, the last line in the first paragraph; "I have attempted to show how Dunne-za mythic reality lies within the reality of everday experience." A Did you have that passage? Which paragraph? 13114 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 Q The end of the first full paragraph. 2 A The first. Yes, I see it. 3 Q And do you agree with that statement or do you agree 4 with the fact that Dunne-za mythic reality lies within 5 the reality of everyday experience? 6 A Well, as I say, I haven't read the entirety of this 7 book, but I think I have the impression that perhaps 8 what he meant here was that he was trying to show some 9 kind of relationship between their mythic reality and 10 his everyday life. I'm not sure if that paraphrases 11 him correctly or not, but it may. 12 Q Well, as far as you're concerned, Dr. Mills, do these 13 statements about mythic reality lying within the 14 reality of everyday experience apply to the 15 Wet'suwet'en people? 16 A What would you take that to mean? I'm not sure what 17 you really mean by that. What would you mean by a 18 mythic experience lying within everyday reality? 19 Q I am now referring to Dr. Ridington's comments about 20 the Beaver Indians and I'm simply asking you whether 21 they apply to the Wet'suwet'ens? 22 A I think it would be very difficult to say. As I 23 understand from the portions of this book that I have 24 looked at he's using a very metaphorical kind of 25 language, and I wouldn't want to take a metaphorical 26 use and apply it in any kind of broad way without 27 understanding what the implications of such a 28 statement was. If you could put a specific -- 29 Q Yes. Fine, thank you. Your concern is you haven't 30 read the whole book, and you don't understand what Dr. 31 Ridington is referring to. Is that a fair summary? 32 A Well, are you asking me whether the Wet'suwet'en 33 concept of everyday realty includes the things that 34 are contained in their Kungax. 35 Q Yes. 36 A I don't know why you needed to put this to me. That 37 question is quite relevant. But the Wet'suwet'en 38 think what happened, the events that are related in 39 their Kungax are related to them, yes. 40 Q And you have said, and you believe in fact, that myth 41 is not myth, but reality. You've said that in your 42 previous writing. 43 A Would you care to quote me? 44 Q Well, yes. You say: 45 46 "The conclusion of this thesis, if it can be 47 said to have one, is that myth is not myth 13115 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 but reality, the inner realty of psychic 2 development." 3 4 Do you recall saying that? 5 A Could you show me the context? 6 Q Yes, I certainly will. Can you recall saying that, or 7 writing that? 8 A Not particularly. 9 THE COURT: What is this, Mr. Mackenzie? 10 MR. MACKENZIE: This, my lord — I'm about to ask the witness 11 what this is. This is an article or paper that was 12 apparently written by Dr. Mills which appears in her 13 curriculum vitae. I'm asking her to identify it. I'm 14 referring to it. 15 Q Dr. Mills this document I've handed to you is entitled 16 "Beaver Indian Supernatural Power: The Cosmology of 17 Consciousness", and it's dated May 1969. Is that a 18 publishable paper that you wrote? 19 A Yes, it is. 20 MR. MACKENZIE: I submit that for the next exhibit, my lord. 21 THE COURT: Where is the passage to which you referred? 22 MR. MACKENZIE: The passage is on page 65, my lord, the last 23 paragraph. 24 THE COURT: Whereabouts again? 25 MR. MACKENZIE: Page 65, my lord, the last paragraph. 2 6 THE COURT: Yes. 27 MR. MACKENZIE: I tender that as the next exhibit, my lord. 28 THE COURT: Yes. 955-4. 29 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. 30 31 (EXHIBIT 955-4: Extract of paper of Dr. A. Mills) 32 33 MR. RUSH: My lord, it should be clear, if it's not from the few 34 number of pages, that this is an extract. 35 THE COURT: Yes. I noticed that. Thank you. 36 MR. MACKENZIE: And just continuing to refer to that Exhibit 37 955-4, my lord. 38 Q Dr. Mills, on page 29 you discuss the acquisition of 39 supernatural power. Is that correct, Dr. Mills? 40 A Yes, it seems to be. 41 Q And you say in that first paragraph: 42 43 "It should be made" — 44 45 This is starting at the second -- starting at the 46 first line. 47 13116 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 "This chapter attempts to make clearer the 2 process of acquiring supernatural power that 3 exists among the Beaver Indians. It should 4 be made very clear that I am at a distinct 5 disadvantage in describing the process 6 because it is something that must be entered 7 into to be understood, and I have not 8 entered into this quest. From the Beaver's 9 point of view we are at the psychological 10 level of four year olds, with the added 11 disadvantage of having lived considerably 12 longer than that and having developed 13 lopsidedly, solipsistically in other 14 directions. What follows is based on what 15 the Beaver Indians have deemed appropriate 16 to tell such strange creatures about the 17 nature of supernatural power, and what such 18 strange creatures can observe in the 19 comportment of people at different stages in 2 0 the development and attainment of their 21 supernatural power." 22 23 And those were your views in 1969? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And those are your views today? 26 A More or less. 27 Q And did that apply also to the Wet'suwet'en? 28 A The concept that I arrived like a four year old and 29 needed to learn what they thought? Yes, I think that 30 I did need to understand what they -- I did seek to be 31 instructed by them about what they understood. For 32 example, houses, clans, et cetera. 33 Q On page 60 you set out your description of western 34 society. I'm not going to read it out, but I just ask 35 you to read over the first couple paragraphs there 36 down to the -- the line "Normal men have killed 37 perhaps 100,000,000 of their fellow normal men in the 38 last fifty years." Was that your view in 1969? 39 A Yes. 4 0 Q And is that your view today? 41 A I think I probably am a bit more sophisticated than 42 that, but people certainly continue to kill their 43 normal men. It's not as if I'm saying that other 44 people don't do it as well. It's not as if I'm 45 claiming that the Beaver Indians didn't kill one 46 another. 47 Q So, as you say, you completed your -- or you signed 13117 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 the contract and you did library research from 2 March -- started your library research in March 1985, 3 and you started your interviews in July after you 4 arrived in Moricetown? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And people to whom you spoke were aware you were 7 working on the land claims case? 8 A To some extent. 9 Q And they knew that the information might be used in 10 the case? 11 A I think many of them did. 12 Q And can you agree that most of your informants, 13 certainly all of them you've discussed here, with the 14 exception of perhaps Margaret Pierre, were hereditary 15 chiefs? 16 A Most of the people that I talked to were hereditary 17 chiefs. I certainly talked to people who weren't 18 hereditary chiefs as well. 19 Q And who would be a couple of the people who weren't 20 chiefs that you spoke to? 21 A Well, for -- just spoke to -- I'm not sure what you 22 mean. In terms of doing formal interviews or just -- 23 Q Yes, in terms of doing formal interviews. 24 A Most of them were chiefs. 25 Q Can you recall any of your informants with whom you 26 did formal interviews that weren't chiefs? 27 A Not offhand. Most of what one typically does is go to 28 the elderly and knowledgeable people. In the 29 Wet'suwet'en culture those people are typically 30 chiefs. 31 Q And you were assisted in the selection of your 32 interview subjects by Victor Jim? 33 A To a slight extent. The obvious thing to do was to go 34 and interview the heads of the houses. That didn't 35 take any prompting from anyone. 36 Q You were assisted, or Victor Jim accompanied you on 37 some of your interviews. Is that fair to say? 38 A Not very many, no. No, he accompanied me when I went 39 with his father and mother to his father's territory, 40 but -- and he and Don Ryan went with me to see Sarah 41 Layton, who was in the hospital in Prince Rupert. But 42 other than that I conducted the interviews on my own. 43 Q Yes. You spoke to -- you spoke to someone to get 44 recommendations as to whom you should select as 45 informants, did you not? 46 A Well, it was obvious that the first thing to do was to 47 talk to head chiefs of the house, as I just said, and 1311? A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 so that's what I did. 2 Q And how did you come to know who the head chiefs of 3 the houses were? 4 A I asked. Everyone knows who the head chiefs of the 5 houses are. Every Wet'suwet'en knows. The people at 6 Moricetown and Hagwilget know that. It's common 7 knowledge. 8 Q When you were living with -- when you were living at 9 Hagwilget, as you say -- sorry. When you were living 10 at Moricetown, as you say, you attended several 11 feasts? 12 A I did. 13 Q And as you mentioned to Ms. Koenigsberg you attended 14 at the demonstration of the airport? 15 A I wasn't coming to a demonstration. My daughter was 16 arriving by that plane so I arrived to receive her. 17 Q And you developed close friendships with many of the 18 people in the Wet'suwet'en community? 19 A I developed some friendships, certainly. 20 Q And is it fair to say that you would be reluctant to 21 disclose information which might embarrass or offend 22 those people? 23 A I should think that people would do that in any 24 context. That doesn't mean that I have suppressed 25 information, or have edited out information. And I'd 26 like to make it clear that the land claims tapes that 27 I reviewed are a remarkable body of information, 28 because there is no attempt at suppression or 29 regulating what people say. I think it's a misnomer 30 to think that it's possible for anthropologists or 31 lawyers who are representing Indians to sort of 32 control what they're going to say. They say what they 33 want to say, when they want to say, as they want to 34 say it. And I asked some questions and they told me 35 what they had to say. 36 Q And it's fair to say that the people to whom you spoke 37 would not disclose to you information that would be 38 embarrassing or that might come to public attention? 39 A I've disclosed in my report things that -- that the 40 Wet'suwet'en themselves wouldn't say about themselves. 41 They would say it perhaps in the context of talking to 42 somebody, but they wouldn't say it of themselves. 43 Q Well, to your knowledge, your informants were aware 44 you were working for the lands claims case. They 45 wouldn't and didn't tell you anything that would 46 contradict the thrust of your report, would they, or 47 did they? 13119 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 MR. RUSH: My lord, I object to that. I mean, that's a question 2 that is asking this witness to penetrate the minds of 3 the informants. 4 THE COURT: Yes, I think that's correct. 5 MR. MACKENZIE: Okay. 6 Q Did your informants provide you with information which 7 contradicted your report today? 8 A No, they didn't. I based my report on the information 9 they gave me. 10 Q Did your informants provide you with information which 11 disclosed that many of them do not attend at feasts? 12 A I say in my report how many attend at feasts, you 13 know. 14 Q No. I say did your informants advise you how many 15 people do not attend at feasts? 16 A It wasn't necessary. I attended the feasts and 17 observed for myself. 18 Q Fine. Did your informants advise you of people who 19 did not comply with the laws of matrilineal 20 inheritance? 21 A Oh, yes. Occasionally in doing the genealogical work 22 they would point out that this was an incorrect 23 marriage. In any kind of genealogical work that's 24 what you find. There's a basic pattern and there are 25 occasional deviations, and when they -- when going 26 through the genealogies recording the marriages they 27 came across a case like that they told me. It's 28 marked out on the genealogies, and it's recorded as 29 well -- exceptions as well as the -- the much greater 30 body of confirmations of the matrilineal principle. 31 Q And as you've mentioned already there were -- there 32 were also personal communications that you did not 33 record? 34 A Oh, yes. 35 Q Were any of those not recorded because of the 36 sensitive nature of the information? 37 A Usually when I say something's a personal 38 communication it was because it was said in a context 39 when I wasn't taking notes and so I put it in memory 40 and went home and recorded it at that stage. No, I 41 didn't have the sense that people were covering up. 42 They were -- they were telling a lot of material, 43 giving me a lot of material. 44 Q Dr. Mills, I'm going to suggest to you that you 45 embarked upon your research to substantiate the 46 assumption that there was a Wet'suwet'en society, and 47 it was -- and that these were distinct people with a 13120 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 distinct culture, and that was the purpose of your 2 research? 3 A You're putting it even in the past tense. The 4 question is what is the Wet'suwet'en society. I went 5 to see and to study what it was without any particular 6 assumptions. I was informed to some extent by the 7 literature that I had read, Jenness, and it wasn't as 8 if I was trying to create information that would 9 indicate that something that wasn't there was there. 10 I was interested in seeing what the information would 11 show. 12 Q So I take it you deny that you started off with a goal 13 that was to prove that there was a Wet'suwet'en 14 society, and it was distinct, and that was the goal of 15 your research. Do you deny that? 16 A Yes, I do. My goal was to find out to study what was 17 the Wet'suwet'en society. 18 Q Now, when you were doing your library research you 19 consulted many authorities, and you've listed some of 20 those starting at page 217 in your report? 21 A I think that's the accurate page. 22 THE REGISTRAR: It's there. 23 A Oh, I see. 217. That's right. 24 MR. MACKENZIE: 25 Q And you consulted many other authorities that you did 26 not list in your report? 27 A Yes. 28 Q Yes. You had familiarity with the literature on the 29 Wet'suwet'en and the Carriers as a result of your 30 previous writing relating to Indian symbolism, 31 religion and psychology? 32 A I've already stated that. 33 Q Yes. You did not include several authorities whose 34 work contradicted the case that you were trying to 35 establish, that there was a Wet'suwet'en society? 36 A Would you like to give examples? 37 Q Oh, yeah. Let me just say so you can't respond to 38 that until I give you specific examples? 39 A That's a wiser course. 40 Q You did not list authorities, or many authorities that 41 contradict your evidence that the Wet'suwet'en 42 borrowed their clans, traditions and institutions from 43 Tsimshian during the fur trade period? 44 A As you notice, this isn't just a bibliography, it's 45 references cited. And that was referring to Goldman 46 and Kobrinsky. As you are yourself aware I refer to 47 Kobrinsky in an earlier version of my report, but 13121 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 given that I had concluded that Dyen and Aberle's 2 assessment was of greater weight I didn't refer to it 3 in the final version. I should point out that Dr. 4 Kobrinsky wrote his dissertation which formed the 5 basis for the later paper in 1973, and since Dr. 6 Aberle wasn't his advisor, and Dyen and Aberle's book 7 didn't come out until 1974, Dr. Kobrinsky wasn't using 8 that as one of the resources that he used in writing 9 his dissertation either. Then he wrote a later 10 article. It was after Dyen and Aberle had published 11 their work, but he basically repeated what he had said 12 in his PhD dissertation earlier with just saying that 13 he felt that that was more valid than Dyen and Aberle. 14 But I didn't -- I found the Dyen and Aberle work very 15 impressive, and I thought that it explained a great 16 deal of material in a comprehensible and clear way, 17 and it made a lot of sense out of a lot of Athabascan 18 studies that had been done previously. Therefore, I 19 used Dyen and Aberle. And I continue to think that 20 they are a very, very important and good reference. 21 Q Yes. You referred to Dyen and Aberle in your report, 22 didn't you? 23 A I did. 24 Q But I take it you would defer to Dr. Kari as far as 25 linguistics is concerned. You're not an linguistic 26 expert, are you? 27 A I'm not an linguistic expert the way Dr. Kari is, no. 28 Q And another person who you didn't list in your report 29 is Ruth Murdoch, but you consulted her work, didn't 30 you? 31 A Yes, I read a draft report that she had made, and I 32 actually -- she had done an archeological study for 33 the Moricetown Band and I heard that she was living in 34 the area. I went to see her as well. And she said it 35 was a draft report, that she was going to complete a 36 final version and not to quote the draft report. And 37 she cited some -- some interesting material, and so I 38 asked her if I could go and see, talk to the people 39 who had provided her with that information. Of course 40 she said yes. And so I think in my report I have 41 several instances where passages that I had seen in 42 Ruth Murdoch I then went and talked to the person who 43 had given her that information and verified it through 44 them so that I would get it firsthand. And what 45 happened was she never did complete the final version 46 of her -- of her report and that's why I didn't refer 47 to it. 13122 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 Q Ruth Murdoch was hired by the Moricetown Band to 2 conduct archeological research in the summer of 1984? 3 A I think that's correct. 4 Q And you're aware that she interviewed 2 0 Wet'suwet'en 5 hereditary chiefs during July and August 1984? 6 A I think her report says so. 7 Q Yeah. And that became apparent to you during your 8 discussions with her and your research for your draft? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And she was conducting archeological and 11 ethnohistorical research at the request of the 12 Moricetown Indian Band? 13 A I think that's correct. 14 Q And were you aware also, did she advise you, that the 15 band had possession of all the material that came out 16 of her research, including her notes, interpreter's 17 notes, tapes, artifacts and her report? 18 A Yes. And that's another reason I didn't cite it, 19 because it was not ever finished and -- 20 Q You're aware that those are all on file at the 21 Moricetown Band office? 22 A I didn't know that's where they were. 23 MR. MACKENZIE: My lord, I've handed up to your lordship a — 24 some excerpts from this report by Ruth Murdoch with 25 which, or about which I've just been questioning Dr. 26 Mills. 27 Q I would submit that as the next exhibit after asking 28 Dr. Mills if that's the draft report she was referring 29 to? 30 A I think it is, m'hm. 31 THE COURT: 955-5. 32 THE REGISTRAR: Yes. 33 34 (EXHIBIT 955-5: Draft report of Ruth Murdoch) 35 36 MR. MACKENZIE: 37 Q As a result of your review of the report and 38 conversation with Dr. Ruth Murdoch you were aware that 39 she had concluded that the Bulkley Carrier borrowed 40 many aspects of the Gitksan and other coastal peoples 41 social organization and culture, such as a matrilineal 42 kinship system? 43 THE COURT: What page are you quoting from? 44 MR. MACKENZIE: 45 Q I'm just wondering if you recall her -- 46 A No, I don't. 47 MR. MACKENZIE: Page four. You see that halfway through the 13123 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 second paragraph. Does your lordship have that 2 reference, while the Bulkley Carrier? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 MR. MACKENZIE: 5 Q On page four. 6 7 "While the Bulkley Carrier retained some 8 important aspects of the interior cultural 9 patterns, they also borrowed many aspects of 10 the Gitksan and other coastal peoples social 11 organization and culture, such as a 12 'matrilineal kinship system' and a ranked 13 clan system, with subdivisions into houses 14 with hereditary chiefs and crests." 15 16 Were you -- do you agree or disagree with that, 17 Dr. Mills? 18 A Well, I've already made clear that the best 19 interpretation as I see it of the way that the Gitksan 20 and Wet'suwet'en have influenced each other is that 21 there has been a very long term interaction between 22 the two, and that the clan system itself may well be 23 just a proto Athabascan nature of antiquity. 24 Q I take it you disagree with what Ms. Murdoch says? 25 A I agree there is a matrilineal kinship system and 26 ranked clan system and subdivision into houses and 27 they have hereditary chiefs and crests. I don't think 28 that there is any indication that they ever -- that 29 they came -- that they necessarily came from an 30 interior origin or ever had a more kind of interior 31 social structure. The evidence seems to be that the 32 people, the sub Arctic Athabascans probably came from 33 a social structure that's more similar to the 34 Wet'suwet'en social structure and in the process of 35 going to a different environment where they could not 36 sustain such large populations that they developed 37 what's -- what has previously often been thought of as 38 characteristic Athabascan social structure. 39 Q On page 26 Ruth Murdoch just describes the interview 40 process. 41 MR. RUSH: What page, please? 42 MR. MACKENZIE: Page 26. 43 Q And you are aware that the interviews were conducted 44 at elders' homes and also actually visits to the 45 Morice Bulkley Canyon, Moricetown Canyon? 46 A Yes, I read this report. 47 Q On page 30 is a list of the informants, people who 13124 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 were interviewed, and many of these people were also 2 interviewed on your land claims transcript, were they 3 not, Dr. Mills? 4 A Yes. I don't recall any with Jennie Naziel or Johnny 5 Tommy. There are no land claims transcripts on Mary 6 Jim either, though she certainly has a chief's name. 7 And I don't recall any with Elizabeth Joseph. Did you 8 want me to -- 9 Q No, thanks. So there are some that aren't included in 10 the ones you reviewed and some are. Is that fair to 11 say? 12 A Pardon? 13 Q Some are not included in the interviews you reviewed 14 and some are? 15 A You're talking about the land claims interviews or are 16 you talking about Ruth Murdoch's interviews? 17 Q The land claims interviews including -- I'm asking 18 whether this list of people that are set out on page 19 30 of Exhibit 955-5 were among the people that were 20 the subject of the land claims interviews you 21 reviewed? 22 A I -- well, we have the list, we've put in evidence, I 23 think of the people who were interviewed for the land 24 claims transcripts. And there is an overlap, yes. 25 Q So some are and some aren't, is that fair to say? 26 A That's right. 27 THE COURT: What is the asterisk with the plus mean? 28 MR. MACKENZIE: It's indicated at the bottom, my lord, note two. 29 THE COURT: I see. I'm sorry. 30 MR. MACKENZIE: "Asterisks represent home interviews, and the 31 crosses represents canyon visits." 32 THE COURT: This work was done in 1984? 33 A Yes. 34 MR. MACKENZIE: July August 1984, my lord. 35 Q Now, I just wanted to finish up with this Murdoch 36 report. Page 70 there's an interview with Alfred 37 Mitchell which continues over to page 73 it goes on. 38 I just refer you to the section on page 72 on summer. 39 He's discussing the seasonal round, and you see the 40 second, the third sentence, fourth sentence in that 41 section Alfred Mitchell says: 42 43 "A lot of money goes into getting a name and 44 a trapline. That's why we are trying to 45 keep our traplines. This government is 46 trying to take our traplines away just 47 because we're not trapping. If they had no 13125 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 money they could always go out trapping." 2 3 Did you see that passage when you reviewed the 4 Murdoch's -- Ms. Murdoch's report? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Yes. And does that change your -- did you take that 7 into consideration when you gave your opinion about 8 the -- the continuation of the trapline and 9 territorial system? 10 A Oh, I certainly did. But I also took into 11 consideration discussions with Alfred Mitchell. 12 That's who has been quoted here. 13 Q Yes, that's right. 14 A Alfred Mitchell is particularly active. I think he 15 has given testimony in this court and he's -- he's 16 somebody who is greatly respected as a man of the 17 bush, a hunter and trapper. This would, taken out of 18 context, one might think that the Wet'suwet'en 19 didn't -- didn't use their territories and that they 20 thought of them only as traplines. It's a term which 21 was explained in Bazil Michell's commission evidence. 22 There's a confusion. Sometimes they use the term 23 trapline. In their sense it's referring to their 24 territory and traditional territory. And when the 25 traplines were first established by the Wildlife 26 Branch they just knew the territories that the 27 Wet'suwet'en chiefs had -- had territories and they 28 adopted that as the basis for deciding the traplines. 29 I'm sure you've had a lot of testimony already in the 30 court, but also my interviews, my observations 31 indicated that -- that the system of territories is 32 very much alive. In fact this very passage talks 33 about how it is important for them. They spend a lot 34 of money taking their names and he says traplines 35 meaning territories. Yes, they do. 36 Q So you'll agree that -- that when the Wet'suwet'en 37 people are speaking about these areas they often refer 38 to them as traplines or trapping territories? 39 A They sometimes do, yes. 40 Q And at the land claims feast, I'm sorry, at the All 41 Clans Feast particularly there was a lot of reference 42 to traplines and trapping territory. Do you recall 43 that? 44 A I don't recall the frequency that that term was used 45 as opposed to the frequency with which the term 46 territory is used, but as I just finished saying, the 47 Wet'suwet'en often use the term synonymously, but they 13126 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 do not -- this is exactly what you -- perhaps you have 2 usefully pointed out in my previous work in 3 anthropology. It's important that we do not confuse 4 our use of the term trapline with what the 5 Wet'suwet'en mean when they use the term trapline. 6 They're not referring to a piece of paper or a 7 registration, though those things also exist, and they 8 know that they need to take them seriously, and they 9 do, but when they use the word trapline typically 10 they're meaning their territory. 11 Q Well, it's true, isn't it, you don't need to go on 12 someone's territory for hunting, but you do if you're 13 trapping? 14 A Well, that depends. Typically you ask permission for 15 either purpose. 16 Q And — 17 A Or should. 18 Q Sorry. Did I interrupt you? 19 A Or should. 20 Q You're aware, and you indicated in your evidence in 21 chief, that Dr. Kobrinsky's view was to protect the 22 final furry sources that the discreet territories were 23 set up. That's his view? 24 A Even he is contradictory. If you notice the septs 25 were what he -- were there originally. He uses the 26 word sept the way we would use the word band. He said 27 that's the old category. He doesn't claim they had 28 discreet territories in that sense. What he's saying 29 is the matrilineality and system of feasts, and I 30 think he also indicates potlatches, is a result of the 31 fur trade, and I don't think that the evidence bears 32 that out. 33 Q I'm going to suggest to you that the Wet'suwet'en 34 still regard these territories as trapping 35 territories, and they continue to refer to them in 36 that sense. I take it you disagree with that? 37 A Well, I've already said I think twice -- I could say 38 it a third time. 39 Q No. I'm just asking whether you disagree with it. 40 A Well, they do think that they have the right to trap 41 in them, if that's what you're asking. 42 THE COURT: Is the question do they sometimes call their 43 territories their trapline? 44 MR. MACKENZIE: No. The question is they regard these 45 territories as trapping territories, as resource use 46 territories for trapping fine fur purposes. 47 Q That's what I'm suggesting to you. 13127 A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 A 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q 10 11 12 A 13 Q 14 15 A 16 17 18 Q 19 20 21 22 A 23 24 25 Q 26 27 28 29 30 A 31 32 Q 33 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 39 40 41 42 A 43 44 Q 45 ] MR. RUSH 46 47 Right. And I'm saying no, they think of the territory as a territory in which the head chiefs have the authority to say whatever resources are taken from them. And that berries are very important to the Wet'suwet'en. They obviously take fish in the territories. Trout are an important resource. The game that they hunt in there is also important to them, but also so are the fur bearing animals. So it's your evidence whenever the Wet'suwet'en use traplines -- and those instances occur frequently in your field notes you'll agree? Yes. They mean territories and all resources on the territory? Yes. In English they tend -- they sometimes, not always, they use the word trapline and territory interchangeably. I'm going to ask you to assume that if a chief advised you -- informed you that he could hunt anywhere, but he required permission to trap, would that change your view in any way from what you just said? You're going to assume -- I'm not used to this parlance. Perhaps you can tell me what I'm supposed to be speaking to. I'm suggesting to you -- I want you to assume that a high chief advises you that he requires permission to trap, but he can hunt anywhere. Can you -- will that change your opinion as to whether these are trapping territories or trapline -- fur trapping territories? Perhaps you could put an instance to me and then I could address it. I'm not sure what you're saying. I've already put the instance to you, Dr. Mills. Can you respond to it? I'm supposed to assume? Yes. I don't think -- in anthropology we don't do that. Well, let me put it this way, I'm suggesting to you that evidence to that effect has been called in this case, and if it's accepted by the court would that change your view? That's why I'm asking you to assume it. I would, of course, have to have the evidence put to me. I just put it to you, Dr. Mills. My lord, it might be that the exchange between the witness and Mr. Mackenzie has to do with context and framework, and who the witness was, and so on. 1312? A. Mills (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 THE COURT: I don't believe the witness needs to know the name 2 in order to make that simple assumption. 3 A Is your question if a Wet'suwet'en chief says that 4 traplines or territories -- 5 THE COURT: The assumption is that he can hunt anywhere, but he 6 needs permission to trap on another chief's territory. 7 Does that affect your opinion about the way these 8 people regard these territories? 9 A A number of hereditary chiefs have told me they don't 10 take it lightly if someone goes and traps, hunts on 11 their territories, but they commonly say that they 12 give permission if people ask. 13 MR. MACKENZIE: Well, I'm asking you still. With respect, my 14 lord, the witness is still not asking the question. 15 I'm going to put the actual evidence to the witness 16 then, my lord. 17 THE COURT: I think maybe before we do that we'll take the 18 afternoon recess, please. 19 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court will recess. 20 21 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED) 22 23 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 24 a true and accurate transcript of the 25 proceedings herein to the best of my 26 skill and ability. 27 28 29 30 Peri McHale, Official Reporter 31 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 13129 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT) 2 THE REGISTRAR: Order in Court. 3 THE COURT: Mr. MacKenzie. 4 MR. MACKENZIE: 5 Q Thank you, my lord. 6 Dr. Mills, I just want to get it clear what our 7 discussion was. I was asking you if a hereditary 8 chief told you that he could hunt anywhere but needed 9 permission to trap, would that change your view as to 10 the use of these trapping -- traplines, trapping 11 territories? 12 A And I guess the answer would be it depends on the 13 context. That traditionally what happened was that 14 you would be moving from the summer salmon fishing 15 villages out to the territories, and in that context 16 of moving -- moving camp, it was expected that you 17 would do hunting along the way, and though it was 18 particularly thought that it was appropriate to take 19 smaller game, but often you would be going along with 20 the head chiefs or someone who is authorized to hunt 21 in that territory as well. And as the -- now, the 22 Wet'suwet'en don't have the same kind of seasonal 23 movement from the fishing villages. They tend to stay 24 in the fishing villages and go out into the 25 territories for trapping and hunting. And in general 26 most -- most -- most chiefs say that they would prefer 27 that permission be asked before somebody goes and 28 takes game and it's expected that the game taken from 29 the territories be shared, and that happens. 30 Q My lord, this is the passage from the 31 cross-examination of Walter Joseph. It's Volume 160 32 of the trial transcript at page 10214. And reading 33 from line 39: 34 35 Q "And where do you hunt, Mr. Joseph? 36 A You mean for game? 37 Q Yes, I mean for game. 38 A Well, anywhere in the Hazelton area, 39 Telkwa, or up the Babine -- Babine 40 Trail. That's up towards the 24 mile, 41 eh. 42 Q And that's east of Hazelton as you 43 described to us? 44 A Yes. 45 Q Do you know in whose territory you hunt? 46 A No. If you're hunting for game, you 47 know, you can -- I can go hunt anywhere, 13130 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 but if you had a trap and then it's a 2 different -- you have to have permission 3 before you go in there. 4 Q I see. So you don't need to ask 5 permission for hunting game, you just 6 chased the game? 7 A No. 8 Q Pardon me? 9 A You just go wherever it takes you." 10 11 So having read that passage, Dr. Mills, does that 12 change your opinion as to the use of these territories 13 as fur traplines? 14 A This -- this isn't a view that's the typically evinced 15 view. I'm sure that you are aware of the testimony of 16 Lucy Bazil in this regard. I agree that this man 17 said -- said this, but in my estimation most people do 18 know whose territory they are in or where the 19 territories are and that people take this into 20 consideration in hunting as well as in taking furs. 21 Q Is it fair to say that you have been advised by other 22 chiefs contrary to what Mr. Joseph says? 23 A That's correct. 24 Q And you prefer their version to Mr. Joseph's? 25 A It's -- the way one evaluates these things is by the 26 frequency of statements and things like that. 27 Q And you reached that evaluation as a result of your 28 participant observation during 1985 to 1988? 29 A Well, I wrote my report in '87. 30 Q So you reached that evaluation as a result of your 31 participant observation between 1985 and 1987? 32 A And interviews and reading the land claims transcripts 33 and reading Jenness and all the other sources, yes. 34 Q You -- you applied your expertise as an anthropologist 35 to come to that conclusion? 36 A Yes. 37 MR. MACKENZIE: Now, assuming -- my lord, perhaps your lordship 38 would find it convenient to mark that excerpt from the 39 trial transcript at this point in the proceedings as 40 well. 41 THE COURT: Yes. 955-6. 42 (EXHIBIT 955-6: Tab 6 - Transcript extract, December 43 8, 1988) 44 MR. MACKENZIE: 45 Q Dr. Mills, you're aware that Walter Joseph is a 46 hereditary chief? 47 A I am. 13131 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 THE COURT: A Wet'suwet'en hereditary chief? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 MR. MACKENZIE: 4 Q And you also interviewed Tommy Tait and Sarah Tait, 5 didn't you, during your time in Moricetown? 6 A I did. 7 Q And there -- Sarah Tait is hereditary chief? 8 A So is her husband. 9 Q And her husband is also hereditary chief. And Sarah 10 and Tommy told you that people could hunt anywhere. 11 They have to get their food. They said people 12 couldn't take beaver or marten on someone else's land 13 but they could get moose anywhere. Do you recall them 14 saying that? 15 A Yes, I do. 16 Q Does that change your opinion? 17 A Well, it was in the context of talking about the time 18 when they used to travel out to the -- their 19 territory. Often the territory they went to was 20 the -- you have to understand that Sarah -- let's put 21 this in context. Sarah Tait is the sister of John 22 Namox and Pat Namox, whose father was Namox. And 23 Sarah Tait and her husband were talking about the time 24 when they used to travel out to Namox territory, 25 because it was -- it was the territory of her father 26 and they were given permission to go there. And on 27 their way out to this territory, it took them a long 28 time to get there, and they would hunt for -- for meat 29 on their way out. If they had had a conveyance to 30 bring the food back to Moricetown, if they -- they 31 would have shared it with the other people. But 32 they -- they were hunting on their way to the -- this 33 specific territory that they were authorized to go. 34 And then most of their hunting was done in the context 35 of being in that territory where everybody expected 36 that they had the right and permission to hunt. 37 Q I handed to you a copy of your field notes dated 38 October 23, 1985. Can you confirm that those -- that 39 that's a copy of your field notes? 40 A Yes, I can. 41 MR. MACKENZIE: Mark that as the next exhibit, please, my lord. 42 THE COURT: 955-6. 43 THE REGISTRAR: 955-7, my lord. 44 (EXHIBIT 955-7: Tab 7 - Field notes of A. Mills dated 45 October 23, 1985) 46 THE WITNESS: Could I make a further comment on this passage 47 that you've just marked? 13132 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 MR. MACKENZIE: 2 Q Well, yes, you can. Perhaps -- I haven't marked the 3 passage yet. Perhaps we could look at the passage and 4 then you may want to respond. It's the third 5 paragraph -- fourth paragraph, and I'm quoting from: 6 7 "Sarah and Tommy said people could hunt 8 moose anywhere. 'They have to get their 9 food', Sarah said. They said people 10 couldn't take beaver or marten on someone 11 else's land but they could get moose 12 anywhere." 13 14 Now, you gave an explanation about travelling -- 15 travelling around through other territories, but I 16 can't see it in that passage there, Dr. Mills. 17 A That's right. And then it goes on to talk about what 18 happened if you were warned not to hunt on somebody's 19 territory. 20 Q You asked that question? 21 A Yes. And -- it was -- I asked a question about 22 something that I had read in the land claims 23 transcripts, and Sarah Tait and Tommy Tait went on to 24 explain that, yes, that happened a lot; that if people 25 went on other people's territory and for hunting and 26 were warned, that people did not take it lightly and 27 used Habo'ts'at type powers against the person. 28 THE COURT: What is that word? Medicine? 29 THE WITNESS: On page 2 or 94? 30 THE COURT: No. 93 at the bottom where you were just reading 31 from. 32 MR. MACKENZIE: Medicine, my lord. "The man whose territory it 33 was used medicine, used witchcraft to kill him". 34 THE COURT: Thank you. Medicine comma. 35 THE WITNESS: Yes. There is a comma. 36 MR. MACKENZIE: 37 Q Okay. I have one more assumption I wanted to ask you 38 about. 39 A And I'd like to also point out at the bottom of page 40 94 it says: 41 42 "There used to be lots of Indian doctors 43 like that, now not so much. They still have 44 some. People learn those things in their 45 dreams. In their dreams they know what to 46 do. That still happens today." 47 13133 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 Q Well, I'm going to ask you to assume that a hereditary 2 chief claims an area as his traditional trapping 3 territory, but then he goes and gets a Crown grant of 4 land to have a farm and then the next year he sells 5 the farm to someone else. Does that change your view 6 as to the use of these areas as trapping, fur trapping 7 territories? 8 A We're luckier because I don't have to assume this. I 9 find it very hard to assume something without an 10 actual fact being put before me. I don't -- I'm not 11 in the habit of assuming things that way, but in this 12 case I think you're probably referring to Johnny 13 David; is that correct? 14 Q No. I'm referring to Thomas George. 15 A Could you put that to me then? 16 Q I just put it to you. 17 A So what I would like though is specific information 18 about it. 19 Q I've just given it to you, Dr. Mills. Do you say that 20 you can't answer that question? 21 A Well, again I'd just like to clarify that I'm not in 22 the habit of assuming something, but I can give you an 23 analogous instance which is in the court record. 24 Q No. I just want you to answer my question if you 2 5 don't mind. 26 A If I assumed -- in other words -- 27 THE COURT: Very simple. Somebody had a claim territory. He 28 got a Crown grant for a farm and he sold it. Does 29 that affect your opinion? 30 THE WITNESS: I see. 31 THE COURT: I don't know who he sold it to. Did he sell it to a 32 white person? 33 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, your lordship. 34 THE COURT: A white person? 35 MR. MACKENZIE: 3 6 Q Yes, my lord. 37 A And does that mean that -- that the Wet'suwet'en 38 territories don't exist? Is that your question? 39 THE COURT: Well, the question is does that scenario change your 40 opinion -- 41 THE WITNESS: Oh, does it change my opinion. No. 42 THE COURT: -- about hunting and other territories or other uses 43 to which these territories have been put by the 44 Wet'suwet'en? 45 THE WITNESS: Right. No, it doesn't. There are large pieces of 46 Wet'suwet'en territory that have been taken up for all 47 kinds of uses or alienated in all kinds of ways, and 13134 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 that doesn't affect the -- and given that is the case, 2 the Wet'suwet'en still have a sense of territories and 3 how the chiefs relate to the territories and how it 4 should be done. 5 MR. MACKENZIE: 6 Q Well — 7 A I'm not saying that the territories exist exactly 8 without any alienation. Smithers is in the midst of 9 what the Wet'suwet'en consider their territories. 10 There are large pieces of land that are used for all 11 kinds of other purposes. 12 Q I have one further question on this. Dr. Mills, you 13 referred at length to the all clans feast in your 14 report? 15 A I devote some pages to it. 16 Q And you make -- for example, at page -- at page 17 of 17 your report you have Alfred Joseph speaking. Do you 18 see that? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And you've already -- Mr. Rush has already showed to 21 you the Exhibit 82 of the -- from the all clans feast. 22 You recall confirming that that was the transcript of 23 the all clans feast? 24 A I do recall. 25 Q Now, you've taken these citations from the all clans 26 feast transcript, I take it; is that correct? 27 A Yes. 28 Q Well, all the references to traplines in the all clans 29 feast transcript have been changed to territories in 30 your report. Did you know how that came about? 31 A It was probably on the presumption that these words 32 are used interchangeably. The traplines has the sense 33 of not talking about a specific -- a specific area as 34 registered for the purposes of fur trapping with the 35 game warden, but they are thought of as their 36 territories. I think the -- typically the word that 37 was used in Wet'suwet'en is yunta and yunta means 38 territory and in getting translated into English is 39 trapline. 40 Q Well, let's just take a look at this reference, this 41 citation from Alfred Joseph, which appears -- it's at 42 page 11 in the all clans feast transcript, which is 43 Exhibit 82. Alfred Joseph actually -- his name 44 appears at the bottom of page 10 and his speech goes 45 on. His speech starts really on the top of page 11 46 and then carries down to where there's a cut in the 47 tape and then Roy Morris starts to speak. And let me 13135 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 direct your attention just to the last four sentences 2 on page 11 where Alfred Joseph starts to talk. He 3 says "We know all the traplines". You see that? It's 4 about six lines up from the cut in the tape. 5 A This is Roy Morris speaking? 6 MR. MACKENZIE: No. This is Alfred Joseph. 7 THE COURT: I haven't found that. 8 MR. MACKENZIE: 9 Q Page 11. 10 A Oh, cut in tape. 11 MR. MACKENZIE: Are you on page 11? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 MR. MACKENZIE: Does your lordship see where Roy Morris is 14 there? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 MR. MACKENZIE: There's a cut in tape. That's the end of Alfred 17 Joseph's speech. And if your lordship will go up six 18 lines. 19 THE COURT: Yes. I have it. Thank you. 20 MR. MACKENZIE: It starts "We all know — sorry — "We know all 21 the traplines". Does your lordship have that 22 reference? 2 3 THE COURT: Yes. 24 MR. MACKENZIE: 25 Q 26 "The chiefs know all the traplines where 27 they are. Everybody who owns the trapline, 28 they benefit from it. Amongst all our 29 native people, we all know we use our land, 30 wherever it is located." 31 32 And then if you look at page 17 of your report, you 33 say: 34 35 "We all know the territories. The chiefs 36 know where all the territories are." 37 38 And then there's an omission there. 39 40 "It has always been worked in the feast. 41 The chiefs that take a name, they are the 42 ones that receive the territory. Amongst 43 all our native people, we all know we use 44 our land, wherever it is located." 45 46 That is, in effect, taken from page 11 on the all 47 clans feast transcript, and all the references to 13136 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 traplines in the transcript have been changed to 2 territories in your report. Now, how did that come 3 about? 4 A Well, first of all, I'm not entirely certain that this 5 passage on page 11 of the all clans transcript 6 reflects what's quoted on page 17. Alfred Joseph 7 spoke at great length at this feast, and the terms as 8 I put it on page 17 may appear elsewhere in the -- 9 that feast, so I would like to -- perhaps over some 10 break I could review the rest and see if this is in 11 fact not the place that I'm quoting from. 12 Q Okay. Fine. Well, you'll agree that on page 11 of 13 the transcript Alfred Joseph uses the word 'traplines' 14 several times? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And you'll agree that in your -- that what you've 17 quoted on page 17 in your report, he does not use the 18 word 'trapline'? 19 A I agree. I think Alfred Joseph has given testimony in 20 Court, and I think that he has expressed himself that 21 the territories are not what are considered by the 22 game warden as traplines. He's described the 23 boundaries of his territory that goes with the title 24 and he's made it abundantly clear that this is not 25 merely a trapline. This is a territory that is 26 associated with the title which he holds. 27 Q So you're saying Alfred Joseph didn't mean trapline. 28 He meant territory? 29 A Yes. 30 MR. MACKENZIE: Look at — just quickly look at page 23 of your 31 report and page 35 -- page 35 of the transcript, which 32 I've included. This is Robert Abraham speaking. And 33 does your lordship have the reference in the middle of 34 the page to Robert Abraham? 35 THE COURT: Yes. 36 MR. MACKENZIE: 37 Q And on page 23 of your report you quote from Robert 38 Abraham. I'll just read the transcript -- or the all 39 clans feast transcript at page 35: 40 41 "Robert Abraham: People have sat a long 42 time to listen. The young generation and 43 the teenager boys are listening to this. In 44 the old days what happened was our ancestors 45 taught us how they used our land. They 46 teach us to invite people when we were 47 young. They use our land in the feast hall. 13137 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 How they teach us, they use this trapline. 2 In the past they teach us in the feast hall. 3 All the clans own the trapline." 4 5 And in your report you say: 6 7 "People have sat a long time to listen. The 8 young generation and the teenager boys are 9 listening to this. In the old days what 10 happened was our ancestors taught us how 11 they used our land. They teach us to invite 12 people when we were young. They use our 13 land in the feast hall. How they teach us, 14 they use this territory. In the past they 15 teach us in the feast hall. All the clans 16 own the territory." 17 18 So you'll agree with me that in the all clans feast 19 transcript, Exhibit 82, Robert Abraham speaks of 20 trapline? 21 A I'd like to point out that he was speaking in 22 Wet'suwet'en. He was not using English. And the word 23 that he used was yunta, which it doesn't refer to 24 traps in the least. 25 THE COURT: What is the word? 26 THE WITNESS: Yunta. It means lands, and that's the 27 Wet'suwet'en term. 28 THE COURT: And the Wet'suwet'en word for it, please? Yunta? 29 THE WITNESS: Yes. Y-u-n-t-a. 30 MR. MACKENZIE: 31 Q And you identified the transcript -- the all clans 32 feast transcript as being the transcript of the feast. 33 Who prepared this transcript, to your knowledge? 34 A Well, lots of people worked on the translation because 35 it was in -- much of the proceedings were in 36 Wet'suwet'en, and the people who helped translate this 37 were Roy Morris, Rita George, Helen Nikol. 38 Q Okay. Well, this transcript, Exhibit 82, was put to 39 Alfred Joseph and he was asked, so far as you're 40 concerned, "This is a written record of what went on?" 41 And Alfred Joseph said "Yes". Are you saying that you 42 disagree with the all clans feast transcript, Exhibit 43 82? 44 A I'm explaining to you that these problems of 45 translation can exist when people speak in their own 46 language. They -- they use a word, and this -- what I 47 have already said, this word 'yunta', which means 1313? A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 territory, means land, is sometimes translated into 2 English as trapline, but -- and when the Wet'suwet'en 3 often use the word trapline, what it's triggering into 4 them is the word yunta, which has nothing to do with 5 traps or trapping. It's talking about territory or 6 land. And in this case the word 'yunta' got 7 translated as trapline and since it was yunta, it 8 doesn't really refer to traps or trapping. I thought 9 it was more accurate to put it as territory. 10 Territory is much closer -- a much more correct 11 translation. 12 THE COURT: Did you make these changes? 13 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure at what stage the people going over 14 recognize that the word was yunta and should be 15 translated as trapline -- I mean as territory rather 16 than trapline. 17 THE COURT: Were you aware of the fact that that change had been 18 made? 19 THE WITNESS: I think that I heard discussion about how they — 20 this word should be most accurately translated, yes. 21 THE COURT: Thank you. 22 MR. MACKENZIE: 23 Q I might point out that Alfred Joseph uses the word 24 'territory' several times on page 8 of the transcript 25 when he -- he's referring to a different -- sorry. It 26 doesn't say trapline. It says territories. So he 27 appears to differentiate. Can you say where the 28 change occurred between the Exhibit 82 and your -- 29 your report, the citations in your report, who, as his 30 lordship indicated, changed the words as they appear 31 in the transcript to the words as they appear in your 32 report? 33 A I think shortly after this feast took place there 34 was -- they began to have a translator's course at -- 35 to teach people about how to translate, and I think 36 they reviewed some of this -- the transcript and 37 agreed that when the term 'yunta' was used, it would 38 be most accurately and least misleadingly translated 39 as territory rather than trapline, because trapline 4 0 means something else to the game warden and to many 41 people. It was -- because it doesn't, of course, 42 change the fact that the Wet'suwet'en in speaking 43 English sometimes use trapline with the assumption 44 that it means territory. But in this translator's 45 course they were -- this was the kind of distinction 46 that they were trying to differentiate so that they 47 could have an accurate portrayal of what was being 13139 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 said. 2 Q And you were present at the translator's course? 3 A No. 4 Q Do you know what happened at the course? 5 A Well, I was in Hazelton once when it was taking place 6 and they asked me to come and talk a little bit 7 about -- from an anthropologist's point of view about 8 language, which I did. It was -- I didn't say much to 9 them, but I was informed that the purpose of the 10 translator's course was to instruct people about the 11 procedure for translating and the requirement of 12 translating everything and not paraphrasing and 13 knowing the vocabulary that in fact translated 14 correctly concepts in Wet'suwet'en which don't 15 necessarily have a ready gloss in English, that kind 16 of thing. 17 MR. MACKENZIE: And, my lord, perhaps it would be convenient to 18 mark that all clans feast transcript as an exhibit in 19 these proceedings. 20 THE COURT: 955-8. 21 MR. MACKENZIE: That's an excerpt. 22 THE REGISTRAR: 955-8. 23 (EXHIBIT 955-8: Tab 8 - All clans feast transcript) 24 MR. MACKENZIE: And for your lordship's reference, the passage 25 is relating to Thomas George's farm or volume 38, 26 pages 2513 and 2514. 2 7 THE COURT: Thank you. 28 THE WITNESS: I think I begin to understand what you meant by 29 your question assuming, et cetera, and perhaps I can 30 give a better answer to that. There are specific 31 cases where land has been sold or alienated, and I 32 guess the question is do I still think that the 33 Wet'suwet'en have the system as I have described it in 34 my report, and the answer is yes, I do. 35 MR. MACKENZIE: 36 Q Now, strangely as it may seem, we got on to this quite 37 detailed topic because we happened to be speaking 38 about some of the sources that you dealt with, and we 39 were talking about the Murdoch report. I'm just going 40 to finish up this series of questions on the sources 41 and just have you -- ask you to confirm, Dr. Mills, 42 that as obviously the case before, you wrote your 43 report. You didn't have an opportunity to review the 44 trial evidence or evidence of cross-examinations on 45 territory affidavits, did you? 4 6 A No. 47 Q Your review of the evidence was really restricted to 13140 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 the commission evidence that you heard of Johnny 2 David, Emma Michell, Bazil Michell and another chief; 3 is that correct? 4 A And the land claims transcripts and discussions that 5 I -- that I heard, trips to the territory with chiefs, 6 observations in Moricetown particularly -- 7 Q I'm sorry. 8 A -- and discussions. 9 Q You spoke -- in our discussions of the all clans 10 feast, you spoke about the interpreter's course. And 11 I guess you'll agree with me that that was after the 12 land claims litigation course took place? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And the purpose of the course was really to train 15 people in contemplation of the litigation? 16 A Contemplation. Well, it was specifically to train 17 them as translators so that they could translate for 18 people who are uncomfortable in English or don't have 19 a good knowledge of English. 20 Q During your preparation of -- during your research you 21 consulted, of course, with the other people -- other 22 experts who were retained by the tribal council? 23 A To some extent. 24 Q You met and discussed these matters with Dr. Daly? 25 A Which matters? 26 Q Dr. -- the subject of your research. 27 A To a certain extent, because we wanted to 28 differentiate and make sure that we weren't just 29 overlapping each other, and I had begun my research 30 before he did and then when he joined, the idea was 31 that he would take over particularly the area of 32 economy. 33 Q And you met and you had quite a long -- you had quite 34 a long section in your draft opinion on linguistics, 35 didn't you, and that was taken out in preparation for 36 this report which is before us now? 37 A That's right. It seemed wise, since we had trained 38 professional linguists, for them to deal with that 39 more particularly. Obviously as an anthropologist I 40 had reviewed the literature, and I consider that an 41 important part of the basis for making an evaluation, 42 but it seemed that we -- rather than being totally 43 redundant, it would be wiser to have the people that 44 have the greatest expertise address that. 45 THE COURT: Have you read Dr. Daly's report? 46 THE WITNESS: Dr. Daly's? 4 7 THE COURT: Yes. 13141 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 THE WITNESS: Not the whole thing, no. 2 THE COURT: Not the whole thing. 3 MR. MACKENZIE: 4 Q You had though -- in preparing your opinions, you had 5 reviewed Rigsby and Kari's view and their draft 6 report? 7 A I had seen Kari's work on the earlier -- he had 8 published -- or perhaps -- I'm not sure if it's 9 published, but it's from the University of Alaska. 10 And I had looked at Story. He had also indicated that 11 I should look at Story. I had written that as well. 12 They hadn't written their -- I don't think -- I think 13 I finished my report before they did. At any rate, 14 basically I was -- as you can see, I was reaching my 15 own conclusions first and it seemed wiser to have the 16 linguists speak to their areas of expertise. 17 Q You referred to Dr. Kari's report from the University 18 of Alaska. I'm just giving you an excerpt from this 19 article entitled "Babine, a New Athabaskan Linguistic 20 Grouping". Is that the -- was that the article that 21 you were referring to? And it's referred in your -- 22 in your citations, 1975 article? 23 A I think so. Is there another one as well? I should 24 perhaps refer to my references here. 25 Q That's the only citation that you have -- 26 A That's the one. 27 MR. MACKENZIE: — for Dr. Kari, page 218. Can we mark that as 28 the next exhibit, my lord, that excerpt? 29 THE COURT: Exhibit 955-9. 30 MR. MACKENZIE: It's an excerpt of pages 3 and 4 from this Kari 31 article. 32 (EXHIBIT 955-9: Tab 9 - "Babine, A New Athabaskan 33 Linguistic Grouping" - J. Kari) 34 MR. MACKENZIE: 35 Q And looking at page 4, Dr. Kari says in the second 36 sentence: 37 38 "The importance of the linguistic position 39 of Babine is underscored by Jenness' 40 remarkable study of the Bulkley River 41 Carrier done at Hagwilgate in 1924 - 25 42 (Jenness, 1943) which details a major 43 adaptation by the Athabaskans to the 44 stratified social culture of the Gitksan. 45 Jenness' monograph is also an important 46 source of linguistic information on the 47 Hagwilgate language. One is struck by the 13142 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 large number of Gitksan loan words in the 2 study." 3 4 Did you take that into consideration when you prepared 5 your opinion? 6 A Yes, I did. And as I have stated, I -- after 7 completing my report and seeing the testimony given by 8 James Kari as well as the report that was made by Dr. 9 Bruce Rigsby and Dr. James Kari, I -- I endorsed with 10 some exceptions what I had said in my report. 11 Q So I take it you would disagree with that passage in 12 Dr. Kari's report now; is that fair to say? 13 A Well, as Dr. Kari said, Jenness was not a linguist. 14 He definitely wasn't. And I would certainly go by the 15 opinion of a trained linguist over Jenness, who had no 16 pretensions to being a linguist. 17 Q Dr. Kari says there was a major adaptation by the 18 Athabaskans to the stratified social culture of the 19 Gitksan. Do you agree with that? 20 A He's saying that Jenness says there was a major 21 adaptation by the Athabascans. I think I've already 22 stated my position is that the Wet'suwet'en had indeed 23 adapted to the Gitksan and have indeed what's called a 24 stratified social culture, but that the basis for this 25 is not simple and is not recent, and Kari's work 26 exemplifies and Rigsby's work exemplifies some of the 27 remarkable time depth that's involved in this 28 interplay between these people. 29 Q In the preparation of your final report, you prepared 30 at least one draft report; is that fair to say, one 31 draft opinion? 32 A Yes. I first wrote a first draft, yes. 33 Q Is that the only draft that's in existence? 34 A I believe so. 35 Q And it was dated June, 1986? 36 A Yes. 37 Q And you sent it to various people for comments? 38 A I don't think I sent it, but some people requested it. 39 Yes. 40 Could I return to this question of the 41 linguistics? I'd like to also make a further 42 statement that in looking at the linguistics, 43 obviously one important source to look at is Dyen and 44 Aberle, who worked out the Proto-Athabascan linguistic 45 forms, and that has made an impact on how 46 anthropologists view this whole exchange. And it's 47 not something, as you noticed, that Kari cites here, 13143 A. Mills (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 I'm sure because just as Kobrinsky doesn't in his original dissertation either, because the Dyen and Aberle came out in '74. Kari probably hadn't read it at the time that he had prepared this and sent it off. THE COURT: Dyen and Aberle is 1974. THE WITNESS: Yes. THE COURT: Is it convenient to adjourn, Mr. Mackenzie? MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, my lord. THE COURT: All right. Ten o'clock tomorrow morning. Thank you. THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. This court stands adjourned until 10:00 a.m. tomorrow. (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL MARCH 10, 1989 AT 10:00 A.M.) I hereby certify the foregoing to be a true and accurate transcript of the proceedings transcribed to the best of my skill and ability. Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.
Trial proceedings
British Columbia
KEB529.5.L3 B757
English
Uukw, Delgam, 1937-
Indigenous peoples--Canada
Oral history
Wet'suwet'en First Nation
Vancouver : University of British Columbia Library
Vancouver : United Reporting Service Ltd.
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[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-03-09]
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