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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts
British Columbia. Supreme Court
In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, between: Delgamuukw, also known as Albert Tait, suing on his own behalf and on behalf of all the members of the House of Delgamuukw, and others, plaintiffs, and Her Majesty the Queen in right of the Province of British Columbia and the Attorney General of Canada, defendants: proceedings at trial.
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4044 Proceedings 1 March 3, 1988 2 Vancouver, B.C. 3 4 THE REGISTRAR: In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, this 5 Thursday, the 3rd day of March, 1988. 6 7 (OTHER MATTERS SPOKEN TO) 8 9 THE REGISTRAR: Calling Dalgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen. 10 MR. PLANT: There's one preliminary matter, my lord. The 11 witness after Mrs. Layton, I understand to be Dora 12 Kenni. The witness after Dora Kenni, I'm told, is 13 Arthur Mathews Junior or Arthur Mathews. Mr. Mathews 14 is a Gitksan person. We don't have a genealogy for 15 him yet and for that matter, we don't have the summary 16 of evidence. And I can advise the Court that the -- 17 the Gitksan genealogy -- or put it this way: Dora 18 Kenni is apparently a member of a Gitksan house. We 19 received her genealogy a week ago today. If Mrs. 20 Kenni gives -- is called to the stand today, then that 21 will be a seven-day advance notice. The rule as it 22 has been applied in respect of Gitksan witnesses is 23 for 14 days advance production. I -- of genealogies. 24 I don't know if my friends anticipate that Mrs. Kenni 25 is going to be giving evidence for 14 days, but it's 26 unlikely, and I -- I should indicate that -- if I 27 might just make one comment, to stress the -- once 28 again the importance of timely disclosure of 29 genealogies. It was only as a result of receiving the 30 genealogy of Dora Kenni that we were able to make 31 certain inquiries that, in turn, have produced 32 regrettably further documents. We were unable -- and 33 my understanding is that a list of those documents has 34 already been provided to my friends. We weren't even 35 in a position to make those inquiries until we had 36 some idea of who was encompassed by the claim of the 37 house that -- of which Dora Kenni is a member. 38 Your lordship may appreciate the logistical 39 problems of 6,000 odd Gitksan persons and -- and 40 including their assorted spouses, and I would ask 41 that -- well, at this point perhaps I could do no more 42 than ask if my friends are in a position to advise the 43 Court when we might expect to receive the genealogy of 44 the witness Arthur Mathews and, for that matter, a 45 summary of his evidence. I'll consider my position 46 after I hear what my friends have to say. 4 7 THE COURT: Mr. Grant. 4045 Proceedings 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. GRANT: Yes, my lord. With respect to Art Mathews and with respect to the listing of the prospective witnesses after him, I have prepared a correspondence this morning. I anticipate that all of that material together, the genealogies, will be delivered before the end of today, and so there's no problem regarding that. As far as I can see, regarding the -- just to be clear, regarding the genealogy of Dora Kenni, it's dated February 19th, '88. It was couriered on Monday or Tuesday of last week to my friends, and they also had Mr. MacKenzie, who was cruising the north, attend at my office, and he called my office and I arranged for him to get a copy as well after it was couriered to them. With regards to the house lists and house membership, I'm surprised that my friend is taken by surprise as the genealogy is substantially as the interrogatory of Steve Robinson, who is Spookw. MR. PLANT: How do I know that, Mr. Grant, until I see the genealogy? MR. GRANT: Well, the genealogy he has now seen, of course. At least Mr. MacKenzie has seen it. He's had it for a week. This genealogy of Spookw, the house membership of Spookw is -- was set out in the interrogatory on February 3rd, 1987 and was delivered over a year ago to my friends, so I'm a bit surprised that they're concerned. I know there are sometimes some exchanges, but substantially there are none now. Mr. MacKenzie received it in my office a week ago. The only reason it wasn't FAX'd to them, we tried FAXing in the past. It's totally illegible. Regarding the -- so as I say, it was a week ago yesterday that Mr. MacKenzie received it. MR. PLANT: Today. MR. GRANT: And regarding the question of -- well, it had to be yesterday, Mr. Plant, I'm sorry, because I was only in my office on the Wednesday of last week. I was in court every other day and that's the day it was delivered to them. But, in any event, regarding other genealogies of 'Axdiihii or of Art Mathews, my lord -- Dora Kenni's evidence will probably take the balance -- go into next week. My friends will be in a situation where they probably -- I don't anticipate them cross-examining before Tuesday of next week, so, yes, 4046 S. Layton (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Plant 1 it will be 13 days that they will have had it before 2 their cross-examination, so -- and it seems that 3 they're having very little difficulty as I received 4 four letters yesterday with numerous documents 5 relating to Dora Kenni, and I probably anticipate more 6 coming today, I guess. But, in any event, Mr. 7 Mathews' letter plus the list of the further witnesses 8 is going to my friends today. I dealt with that this 9 morning before I came over. 10 THE COURT: Well, this is all very interesting, but I'm not sure 11 there's an awful lot that I can use as the basis for 12 giving any judgment or -- or pronouncement. 13 MR. PLANT: Well, my lord, I'm not going to urge you. 14 THE COURT: Are you satisfied? 15 MR. PLANT: No. At the moment, if I might say that I'll 16 consider my position upon receipt of the material that 17 my friend says I'll be getting today. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 MR. PLANT: There is just one point, though, that I think I 20 ought to clarify. Some of the material that we were 21 able to unearth as a result of seeing the genealogy of 22 the house of which Mrs. Kenni is a member has to do 23 with spouses of the house members, and as your 24 lordship may know, the interrogatory does not -- did 25 not seek to unearth spouses, so we were not in a 26 position to know who the husbands and wives were until 27 we received the genealogy. But as to Mr. Mathews, 28 I'll await receipt of the material before I consider 29 my position. 30 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. You've been very quiet, Ms. 31 Koenigsberg. Anything you want to add to this 32 fascinating dialogue? 33 MS. KOENIGSBERG: If there was something useful I would, but I 34 can't see that I can add anything useful. I also will 35 wait. 36 THE COURT: I agree. Thank you, Mr. Plant. 37 THE REGISTRAR: I caution the witness. Mr. Holland, you're 38 still under oath. 3 9 SARAH LAYTON: Resumed 40 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. PLANT CONTINUED: 41 Q Mrs. Layton, yesterday I asked you some questions 42 about an incident that occurred when you were a girl 43 involving Sats'aan and headaches that were cured 44 apparently. The headaches were caused by a mistake. 45 Do you remember my asking you those questions late 46 yesterday? 47 A Yes. 4047 S. Layton (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Plant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q A MR. PLANT THE COURT MR. PLANT Was the -- was this incident, to your knowledge, caused by an argument over a trapline? They weren't arguing or fighting over land or territory. There was some conversation or words exchanged between my grandmother and Sats'aan, and I was pretty young and I was playing around there and I didn't detect any fighting or argument. It was just a change -- exchange of words and as a result, Sats'aan may have -- have thought wrong and he later apologized for that and -- and resolved the problem. And when we -- we left there, we got to Xel ben and that's when I took sick. : Mrs. Layton, I want to refer you again to some answers that you gave me when I examined you for discovery. My lord, I'm referring to page 31 of the transcript, question -- beginning with question 248. : Question 248? : Yes. 248 on page 31. Now, Mrs. Layton, when I examined you for discovery, I asked you these questions and you gave me these answers: A Q "In interrogatory number eighty-two you talk about your mother Mary Seymour?" Yes. And you say that she was Kaluluhm." the I never did get the number for that yesterday. THE SPELLER: Can I see that? MR. PLANT: Well, the spelling here is different from the -- spelling in the transcript is different from the spelling on the word list. Q "And you say that she was Kaluluhm and I do not think that I am pronouncing that word right. MISS MANDELL: No." Okay. I'm still not pronouncing it right, am I? Then I said: "But it is spelled on -- but it is spelled on page twenty so Mr. Holland could pronounce that word as -- A Oh, yeah, looks like -- THE INTERPRETER: Kaluluhm. 4048 S. Layton (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Plant 1 A Yeah. 2 THE INTERPRETER: Spelled Kaluluhm. 3 4 And then he spelled the word. Then I went on to ask 5 you this: 6 7 "And in part of that answer you say your 8 grandmother was explaining to you why 9 you were getting headaches? 10 A Oh, that answer. Okay, that's a long 11 story. 12 Q Well, I do not want to hear all of it -- 13 well, sure tell it to me. 14 A When I get headache, when I get real bad 15 headache and grandmother sees, talks to 16 the other clan that he got the 17 territory, say, 'You can't get over 18 my line, that's my trapline', so there 19 was a big argument there, so when we 20 left, we went to trapline again, and I 21 got sick. I got headache, really bad." 22 23 And just pausing there for a moment, that answer that 24 you gave there was true, was it? 25 A What I said yesterday is true and what I said in 26 Smithers may not have been all that accurate, because 27 I was under medication at that time. 28 Q Well, let me carry on, then, with the balance of your 29 answer after you said "I got headache, really bad": 30 31 "So, grandma seen -- I don't know what 32 she did, but was small anyway, I 33 remember that, she put something on my 34 head, she cut my head open here." 35 36 And I think you pointed at your head then. 37 38 "And this guys, who were on this battle 39 give it to grandma, and I got it 40 instead, and a couple of days later this 41 man that come to us he is sorry that he 42 done that; because he tried to, you 43 know, get grandma. He got me instead, 44 so what he did, he -- how do you say 45 it -- I can't say that. 46 MS. MANDELL: Use the Wet'suwet'en words. 47 THE INTERPRETER: A chamin, powers, they 4049 S. Layton (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Plant 1 heal. 2 A Yeah, powers, that's what I mean, yeah. 3 So, then I was, then I was okay, and 4 then I went and said I am not going to 5 talk, fight with you, with your 6 territory. This was fine afterwards." 7 8 Was that part of your answer true? 9 A Not -- that part's not true, what I said in the time I 10 was sick, so -- what I said yesterday is -- is true, 11 but -- or what I said before, again I say is not 12 accurate, may not be accurate, but like I said 13 yesterday, when I was pretty -- pretty small at that 14 time, they weren't arguing or fighting, but they were 15 talking and what was really said, I don't know. Like 16 I said, I was pretty young then. I was just playing 17 around. 18 Q Mrs. Layton, have you or, to your knowledge, any of 19 the members of your house ever been denied access to 20 your house's land and resources? 21 A In the past we've always gone and trapped and hunted 22 in the territory. Nobody ever stopped us. Nobody got 23 in our way, as my grandmother and her uncles before 24 her had done. But today people go in there and log 25 and clear-cut with no consideration as to -- to us as 26 owners and they clear-cut, make money off it and then 27 they just leave, leave us with nothing. 28 Q If you want to go down to Pack Lake, there's no one 29 that stops you from going there, is there? 30 A Like I said before, in the past nobody stop us because 31 it is Knedebeas' territory, and we use the territory 32 of Knedebeas and then as far as the future goes, the 33 name Knedebeas will pass on to a successor much the 34 same as the past, along with -- with the territory 35 will go with the name, and that will carry on in the 36 future to our grandchildren and great-grandchildren. 37 Q Mrs. Layton, one of the questions in the 38 interrogatories -- it's question 101, my lord. It's 39 not in the brief that I handed your lordship. It's a 40 short question. The question was this: "Have any of 41 the members of your house or their ancestors been 42 denied the right of access to and use of your lands -- 43 your houses, lands and resources?" Your answer was: 44 "Not to my knowledge". 45 That answer was true, wasn't it? 46 A Yes. 47 Q Mrs. Layton, are you aware of the fact that the Indian 4050 S. Layton (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Plant 1 reserves in Knedebeas' territory are set aside for the 2 use and benefit of the Omineca Indian Band, which is 3 now known as the Broman Lake Band? 4 A I have heard of a reserve being -- being under that -- 5 that band, but I'm not sure about it. My grandmother 6 had told me that there was a reserve there and I -- I 7 think that is why my brothers and sisters are buried 8 there. 9 Q Are you aware of the fact that the Broman Lake Indian 10 Band is part of the Carrier Sekani Tribal Council? 11 A I don't know about that, but I know that -- that Xel 12 ben area is our territory, and I never talked to them 13 about it. That is one of the reasons I don't know 14 about it. 15 Q Who is it that you never talked to? You said "them". 16 Who did you mean by "them"? 17 A Whoever's running the Omineca Band. I don't know 18 their names. 19 Q Are you aware of the fact that the Carrier Sekani 20 Tribal Council has claimed ownership of Knedebeas' 21 territory around Xel ben? 22 A That territory does not belong to anyone else but 23 Knedebeas. That's the way it has been in the past. 24 And the name has been passed on from generation to 25 generation and the territory goes along with it and 26 nobody's going to get in the way and claim it. 27 Q So -- well, let me ask you this: Would it be fair to 28 say that you know that the claim has been made, but 29 you deny it? You know that the Carrier Sekani have 30 made that claim, but you deny it? 31 A I -- I have heard about the situation and -- and I 32 still maintain that the territory belongs to Knedebeas 33 and the House of Yex T'sa wil k'us and nobody can lay 34 claim to it other than the members of Knedebeas. 35 MR. PLANT: You used a word there, the -- which I think is the 36 name of your house. 37 THE SPELLER: 650. 3 8 MR. PLANT: 39 Q Yex T'sa wil k'us. Is that another name for the dark 40 house, or the English name for the dark house, excuse 41 me? 42 A Yex T'sa wil k'us is the name of our house, the people 43 of Knedebeas, and our ancestors were also known as 44 Oonis to d'en, and they can be -- they can be pretty 45 mean when it comes to protecting their territory. 46 That's the way they have been in the past. 47 MR. PLANT: 600? 6 MR. PLANT 7 THE COURT 8 MR. PLANT 4051 S. Layton (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Plant 1 THE SPELLER: Yes. 2 MR. PLANT: 3 Q So do the people in the dark house or Yex T'sa wil 4 k'us sometimes call themselves the Oonis to d'en? 5 A Yes. Mrs. Layton -- I haven't got that name. 600. 9 THE SPELLER: Oonis to d'en is 600. 10 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Yes. Go ahead. 11 MR. PLANT: 12 Q When you were a girl, Mrs. Layton, do you remember 13 what the route was that you took to get from Houston 14 to Xel ben, Pack Lake? 15 A When we left Houston, it would take us two days to go 16 up to Xel ben, along Morice River and through Owen 17 Lake. 18 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Through Morice River and — 19 THE WITNESS: And Owen Lake. 2 0 MR. PLANT: 21 Q And Owen Lake. So would you pass Owen Lake on your 22 way to Pack Lake? 23 A Yes. There was a trail there for -- for horse and 24 sleigh. 25 Q Who was it that taught you about the boundaries of 26 Knedebeas' territory? 27 A My grandmother explained all the area to us when we 28 were children, because we were raised out there. 29 Q Now, as I understand it, Mrs. Layton, you don't read 30 or write English, do you? 31 A Yes. 32 Q And you don't read or write Wet'suwet'en, do you? 33 A I seen my grandfather write in Wet'suwet'en, but me, ] 34 don't write in Wet'suwet'en. I just speak it. 35 Q And you don't read maps, do you? 36 A No. 37 Q So what your grandmother taught you, you keep in your 38 head; is that right? 39 A Yes. 4 0 Q And when Marvin George came to see you in Prince 41 George, you told him what was in your head about the 42 boundaries, didn't you? 43 A Yes. 44 Q Could you tell the Court what it was you told Marvin 45 George? 46 A As children we were raised around Xel ben and Tac' 47 ets'ol'een ben, Gg'iis le ben, and that's where we 4052 S. Layton (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Plant 1 stayed most of the time because my grandfather and the 2 rest of the men went out trapping. They would be gone 3 two, three days, sometimes up to a week, and when 4 Marvin George came to see me, I told him about the 5 area of Xel ben, Tac' ets ' ol' een ben, Tl'ok wa Coo, 6 and Gg'iis le ben. 7 THE COURT: What was the last one, please? 8 THE WITNESS: Gg'iis le ben. 9 MR. PLANT: I'm going to have to ask Mr. Mitchell for — I think 10 I caught most of them. I just want to make sure I 11 have. Okay. Xel ben is 363. Tac'ets'ol'een ben is 12 618. Gg'iis le ben is 661 and Tl'ok wa Coo is 486. 13 THE COURT: 486. 14 THE SPELLER: Yes. 15 THE COURT: Thank you. 16 MR. PLANT: 17 Q Did you also tell Marvin George about Tatl'aat? 18 A Yes. I also told him about Tatl'aat, and that's in 19 Knedebeas' territory. 20 Q What was it that you told Marvin George about those 21 places that you've named? 22 A I told him about the areas that I just mentioned where 23 we were raised as children and -- and when we were 24 hunting and trapping marten, beaver, muskrat, 25 squirrels, weasel. 26 Q Well, can you tell the Court what exactly it was you 27 told Marvin George? I don't mean word for word, but 28 tell us what it was that you told Marvin George? 29 A I told Marvin exactly what I'm telling you now, and 30 that's when we went out trapping and hunting, we 31 didn't use no maps and we didn't use no compasses. We 32 used blazes on the trees that are standing out there 33 in the territory, and that's what we used, and I -- I 34 told him about the places that we had travelled. 35 Q What were those places? Are those places that you've 36 already told us? 37 A Yes. 38 Q Did you tell Marvin George which chiefs owned the 39 territories around Knedebeas' territory, the 40 neighbours as it were? 41 A The ones my grandmother had told me about surrounding 42 our territory was Thomas George, Peter Alec and 43 Baptist from Telkwa and Topley Mathew Sam. They were 44 the only ones that I knew of. 45 Q Do you know what Thomas George's Wet'suwet'en name -- 4 6 chief's name was? 47 A I forget what it was. 4053 S. Layton (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Mr. Plant Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg Do you remember what his clan was? Gitdumden. How about Peter Alec? Do you remember his -- Gilseyhu. And Baptist from Telkwa, do you remember his clan and his chief's name? I was pretty young when his people passed on. I just can't recall what clan they were. How about Topley Mathew Sam? Is he the same Mathew Sam that was -- I think we spoke of yesterday? Gitdumden. Do you remember his chief's name? I just know his given name. I forget his chief's name. It may have Gyologyet. It may have been Gyologyet? It may have. : Thank you very much, Mrs. Layton. Those are all the questions I have. -EXAMINATION BY MS. KOENIGSBERG: Mrs. Layton, you mentioned yesterday in your evidence that you had lived at Pack Lake until about 1936 pretty much all year round; is that right? Yes. And it was then that your -- you moved with your grandparents and your parents to Houston and still went back to Pack Lake? Yes. You had given evidence that -- that you had lived at Pack Lake long before 1936, your grandparents and your parents; is that right? Yes. Do you know how far back your parents and your -- parents and their ancestors were living at Pack Lake? My grandmother had told me that when she was a little girl, her uncles -- there's three of them who all passed on before her, all held the name of Knedebeas. And then the ancestors before them held that name. And when the name was passed on, the territory also goes along with it. The three uncles that you referred to who all held the name Knedebeas before your grandmother, when they held the name Knedebeas, did they live pretty well all year round at Pack Lake, as far as you know? Yes. My grandmother had told me that they all lived out there almost year round. Okay. Do you know if the dark house -- which is the House of Knedebeas; is that correct? 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 A 5 Q 6 7 A 8 9 Q 10 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 15 Q 16 A 17 MR. PLANT 18 19 CROSS-EXA 20 Q 21 22 23 A 24 Q 25 26 27 A 28 Q 29 30 31 A 32 Q 33 34 A 35 36 37 38 39 40 Q 41 42 43 44 A 45 46 Q 47 4054 S. Layton (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg 1 A Yes. 2 Q -- had a permanent house at Hagwilget? 3 A Are you speaking of houses they live in or -- 4 Q Yes. I'll be referring to, I believe, what has been 5 called a long house. Have you heard that word, long 6 house? 7 A I was pretty young when I heard of this. Our 8 ancestors before us may have done this before. 9 Q Did your grandmother tell you about such a house? 10 A My grandmother never spoke to me about a house, but 11 she explain to -- to us that we were from the House of 12 Yex T'sa wil k'us. 13 Q You mean that house in the sense of all of the members 14 of your family being called a house, is that what you 15 mean your grandmother explained to you, and not about 16 a physical long house? 17 A I never heard my grandmother speak of a long house, 18 but she did explain to -- to me that we were members 19 of the — of the Yex T'sa wil k'us. 2 0 Q Do you know where Lamprey Lake is? 21 A All I know is it's close to Morice River. There's a 22 road going by. 23 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Okay. And do you know if that used to belong 24 to the dark house? 25 THE COURT: I'm sorry. The lake used to belong to the dark 26 house? 27 MS. KOENIGSBERG: 28 Q Yes. The area of the lake. 29 A The area that you're referring to is close to where 30 Sats'aan used to -- used to hunt and trap, and he is 31 of the Gilseyhu clan. I think he's from the thin 32 house. 33 Q The thin house? 34 A Yex Ts'a wit'ant'. 35 Q Have you ever heard a story told to you by your 36 grandmother about the area around Lamprey Lake being 37 given as compensation for a murder? 38 A The story that my grandmother told me about was -- is 39 a small lake where my grandmother told me about. The 40 place is called Wil takits'en k'ez. 41 THE SPELLER: 619. 42 THE COURT: 619? 43 THE WITNESS: And that — that is named after — when there was 44 a trespasser, a Nuu'tsenii by the name of Will who 45 they -- who they killed and dragged him into a lake. 46 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Who killed or was killed? 47 MS. KOENIGSBERG: 4055 S. Layton (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg 1 Q Who they killed, I believe was the evidence. 2 A Who was killed. They dragged him into that little 3 lake, and that's what that name refers to. And when 4 the -- when I said Oonis to d'en protected the 5 territories, that's how mean they can get when you 6 trespass on their territory in the old days. 7 Q The story that you just relayed to us is not the story 8 of Lamprey Lake, is it? 9 A You've got me confused, the way you call that lake 10 there. 11 Q You're not sure what I mean when I say Lamprey Lake? 12 A No. 13 Q A small lake between Francois Lake and Morice Lake. 14 Do you know such a lake as that? 15 A The only one I know of is the one I -- one I relayed 16 to you. This was told to my grandmother by -- to her 17 by her grandmother, who, in turn, was told about it 18 by -- by her uncle. 19 MS. KOENIGSBERG: I want to ask you some questions about the 20 area that you were telling us about where Mathew Sam 21 lived. 22 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Miss Koenigsberg. Before you do that, 23 I'm not sure that I have this precisely correct. Was 24 the trespasser who was killed called Will? 25 THE WITNESS: His name was Will and when — 26 THE COURT: W-i-1-1? 27 THE SPELLER: Yes. 2 8 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Yes. 29 THE COURT: And was he the Nuu'tsenii? 30 THE WITNESS: Yes. He was Nuu'tsenii and he was killed for 31 trespassing. 32 THE COURT: All right. And does the story say who killed him? 33 THE WITNESS: It was the Oonis to d'en. 34 MS. KOENIGSBERG: I believe that's 600. 35 THE COURT: I'm sorry. He was Oonis to d'en. 36 MS. KOENIGSBERG: The killer was Oonis to d'en. 37 THE COURT: And that's 600. 38 THE SPELLER: Yes. 39 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. Sorry. Mathew Sam. 4 0 MS. KOENIGSBERG: 41 Q You recall telling the Court about Mathew Sam living 42 in the area of Tatl'aat? 43 A Yes. 44 Q And Mathew Sam, you said, used that area according to 45 the Wet'suwet'en custom of -- his mother or father 46 were in the House of Knedebeas; is that right? 47 A My grandmother didn't tell me all that much about him, 4056 S. Layton (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg 1 but she did say that Mathew Sam's father was Gilseyhu, 2 and when my grandmother let them use the area there -- 3 his wife was Gilseyhu. Mathew Sam's wife was Gilseyhu 4 as well and that is why she let them use that part of 5 the territory. 6 Q Was Mathew Sam using that part of the territory by the 7 custom of Neg'edeld'es? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And Mathew Sam was in the Gitdumden clan? 10 A Yes. 11 Q So Mathew Sam would not have the right to pass on his 12 use of that territory to someone else; is that 13 correct? 14 A Yes. Mathew Sam would have been Neg'edeld'es and also 15 he would have been hunting and trapping for his wife, 16 and that -- that whole territory and the area belongs 17 to Knedebeas. 18 Q And the territory and area that we're talking about is 19 in the area of the -- what's now the Tatla Reserve? 2 0 A I don't know about that. 21 THE SPELLER: Can you say that word? 22 MS. KOENIGSBERG: 23 Q Tatla Reserve, spelled T-a-t-1-a as a reserve. 24 You mentioned yesterday that you knew that there 25 was a reserve there; is that correct? 2 6 A My grandmother did mention that -- that there's a 27 reserve at Xel ben. That's only the one that she 28 spoke to me about. 29 Q And do you know if the name of the reserve which 30 covers part of Pack Lake is called Tatla? 31 A The area where Mathew Sam lived was called Tatl'aat. 32 Q Yes. The Wet'suwet'en word Tatl'aat is what you're 33 saying? 34 A Yes. 35 Q And you don't know if the reserve that is in that area 36 is called Tatla; is that right? You don't know. 37 Mathew Sam had a trapline in that area, didn't he? 38 A All my grandmother told me about was that Mathew Sam 39 and his wife were in that area because Mathew Sam was 40 Neg'edeld'es and his wife was Gilseyhu, and they would 41 have been hunting and trapping for his wife, and 42 that's why they let them use that area. It didn't 43 belong to them, but the territory belonged to 44 Knedebeas. 45 Q Mathew Sam left his trapping rights in that area to 46 Roy Morris by will, didn't he? 47 A All I knew was that when Mathew Sam passed on, that -- 4057 S. Layton (for plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg 1 that the household belongings were given to Roy 2 Morris, but the trapping and hunting territory belongs 3 to Knedebeas. It's not for anybody to give away. 4 Q You know that Roy Morris claimed that trapline because 5 Mathew Sam left it to him in a will? You know that, 6 don't you? 7 A I heard about Roy Morris was supposed to get the 8 household belongings and I never heard about trapline 9 registry -- trapline registry being given to him. And 10 that territory is within Knedebeas territory. It's 11 not for him to give to anybody else. 12 THE COURT: Are you going to pursue this further? 13 MS. KOENIGSBERG: I think so. 14 THE COURT: Yes. All right. We'll take the morning adjournment 15 now. 16 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court will recess. 17 18 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED) 19 20 21 22 23 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 24 a true and accurate transcript of the 25 proceedings transcribed to the best 26 of my skill and ability. 27 28 29 30 Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter 31 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 405E Sarah Layton (for Plaintiffs) Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg 1 (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED AFTER A SHORT RECESS) 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Ready to proceed, My Lord? 4 THE COURT: Yes, please. 5 6 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MS. KOENIGSBERG: 7 8 Q Since you have been Knedebeas, held the name 9 Knedebeas, Roy Morris has had a trapline registered in 10 the area where Matthew Sam used to live; isn't that 11 right? 12 A I still maintain that it's not for anybody to give 13 this area to another person. This territory belongs 14 to Knedebeas and that's the way it is supposed to 15 stay. And all I know is that he was supposed to take 16 the household goods that belong to Matthew Sam and not 17 trapping area. 18 Q Although you say that it's Knedebeas's territory, Roy 19 Morris did say that he had a right to the trapping 20 rights, which you have denied; isn't that right? 21 A I still maintain that this is Knedebeas's territory, 22 and what I say goes, and it's never to be broken. In 23 the past it has been Knedebeas's territory, and it 24 will always be Knedebeas's territory in the future for 25 our children. 26 Q While your grandmother Christine Holland was still 27 alive, she took the position that Roy Morris should 28 not have a trapline in Knedebeas's territory; isn't 29 that right? 30 A In the past it has been Knedebeas's territory, and it 31 will always be like that, and what -- before the death 32 of my grandmother she instructed me to look after the 33 Knedebeas's territory, and nobody else to use it 34 without my consent. What Roy Morris is doing is he's 35 never asked me, he's never advised me of his 36 activities there. And again I say that what Roy 37 Morris was entitled to was the belongings of Matthew 38 Sam, but not the territory. 39 Q That's right. You know that Roy Morris is claiming 40 the right to trap there, and you have always taken the 41 position, along with your grandmother, that he did not 42 have that right; is that correct? 43 A My grandmother or myself have never given instructions 44 to anybody else to use that territory. Roy Morris is 45 of Gitdumden clan, and this territory belongs to 46 Knedebeas, Gilseyhu. Matthew Sam was there only as 47 Neg'edeld'es, and his wife, Amelia Morris, was 4059 Sarah Layton (for Plaintiffs) re-in chief by Mr. Adams 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Gilseyhu, and that is why he was allowed to use that area. MS. KOENIGSBERG: Those are my questions. Thank you. THE COURT: Can you tell me, please, when did Matthew Sam die? THE WITNESS: I couldn't remember. It was quite awhile ago. It was quite awhile ago. THE COURT: 5, 10, 15, 20 years ago or more than that? Before you went to Prince George in 1970? THE WITNESS: Might be '69. I'm not sure. THE COURT: In the late 1960's maybe? THE WITNESS: Yes, maybe. THE COURT: All right. Thank you. Mr. Adams? RE-EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. ADAMS: Mrs. Layton, I just have a couple of questions for you. You were asked by Mr. Plant yesterday whether you had heard the name Sam Willie or Willie Sam, and I think that you said "I don't know because my grandmother never told me that name." All that I want to ask you is, is the name Weeliiyh, is that a chief's name in your house? Yes. There is a Wet'suwet'en name Weeliiyh, and Catherine Michell holds that name. Catherine Michell holds that name today? Yes. Now, in your evidence answering my questions and in some of your evidence answering Mr. Plant's questions, and this morning answering Mrs. Koenigsberg, you have referred to Matthew Sam. Are there two people who went by the name Matthew Sam? Yes. That's why I was confused. One is Topley Matthew Sam and the other is Tatl'aat Matthew Sam. And Matthew Sam, who was Amelia Sam's husband, which Matthew Sam was that? Tatl'aat Matthew Sam. And Matthew Sam that you described in answer to Mr. Plant's questions this morning as being one of the neighbours of Knedebeas's territory, which Matthew Sam is that? Topley Matthew Sam. : Thank you. Those are my questions. : Could counsel show me on Exhibit 5 where the territory of Knedebeas is? Where is that lake there? Yes. All right. Does the metes and bounds description of the territory of Knedebeas in Exhibit 307 conform to Exhibit 5? That is with two separate A Q A Q A A Q A MR. ADAMS THE COURT 4060 Proceedings 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. ADAMS MR. PLANT THE MR. THE MR. MR. MR. THE MR. COURT PLANT COURT PLANT GRANT PLANT COURT PLANT territories, with the territory of another house in between. The metes and bounds description is of the southern of the two territories. My understanding is there will be a separate territorial affidavit filed with respect to the northern territory. However, I should go on to say that the metes and bounds description on my reading of it is not described -- does not describe the boundary as it is depicted on Exhibit 5. Yes. That may be a matter of interpretation of the words in the matter. Or argument perhaps. All right. Thank you, ma'am, you are excused. Before the next witness is called, there is one matter of housekeeping nature which I was -- Is that regarding Mrs. Layton? No, it has nothing do with Mrs. Layton. Yes, Mr. Plant. During the examination on commission of Florence Hall I asked some questions concerning documents which may have been in Mrs. Hall's possession. After the completion of the examination some days after, my friends provided to me two documents under cover of a letter of December 13, 1987 from Ms. Mandell, and what Ms. Mandell said in her letter was: "At the commission of Florence Hall you sought production of the documents in her possession regarding an application for a license to occupy certain lands in the Walcott area. I enclose the documents which Miss Hall has given to me in this regard. I also enclose a copy of a map given to me by Miss Hall which outlines a trapline in Walcott." Sometime after that I obtained Ms. Mandell's consent. When I say sometime after that, what I really mean to say is that a week or so ago I obtained Ms. Mandell's consent to have the two documents that were attached in her letter produced -- had been produced by Mrs. Hall marked as exhibits in her commission, and I would tender them now for that purpose. If I might say, as I understand it at the moment the 4061 Proceedings 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 exhibits in Mrs. Hall's commission will come under the exhibit number 240, although they have -- the various exhibits have not yet been given sub numbers, and to my knowledge there are, I think, ten exhibits. And so these two documents would be the eleventh and twelth exhibits, but whatever numbering system Madam Registrar is indicating -- I may not be correct. THE REGISTRAR: 239 is Volume 1, October 13 through the 19th, '87, commission evidence. 239-1 is a photo. 239-3 is a photo of Bill Nye and Tommy Michell. 239-4 is a photo. These are all in volume one. And 239-5 and 239-6 is an affidavit, and 240 is Volume 2 of the commission evidence, November 2nd to the 4th, 1987. And we don't have the rest of them. They didn't put in the rest. MR. PLANT: Perhaps in those circumstances could I tender these two documents and we can sort out the numbering later? MR. GRANT: Maybe we could deal with this tomorrow morning, because I thought, and I note the listing I have is as Madam Registrar has said, and I know there are some documents that I don't have the originals of. I thought I had given them to Mr. Rush. And this all -- I would like to be able to speak to Ms. Mandell concerning this, because I really haven't dealt with this . THE COURT: We can speak to it tomorrow morning, if you wish. The matter could be solved by calling them A and B to Exhibit 240 being Volume 2. MR. PLANT: May we do that, My Lord, because it would spare me the otherwise pleasant experience of coming tomorrow morning. If we could mark them now. MR. GRANT: Well, I guess if they are letters — I see. So that they will be letters as opposed to numbers. That will resolve it. THE COURT: So they will be Exhibit 240A and B. MR. PLANT: Exhibit 240A is a collection of documents which I have stapled together. Exhibit 240B would then be the document described as a trapline map. THE COURT: All right. Thank you. (EXHIBIT NO. 240A - STAPLED PACKAGE OF DOCUMENTS: LETTER, SKETCHED MAP, APPEAL, LICENCE) (EXHIBIT NO. 240B - TRAPLINE MAP - VOLUME 2) MR. GRANT: I just wish to confirm that my friend has -- that these were the documents delivered. I haven't seen 4062 Proceedings 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 them before. THE COURT: You can bring it up again. MR. GRANT: Yes. Thank you. MR. PLANT: Thank you, My Lord. THE COURT: I find nothing persuasive in the suggestion that you should not have to be here tomorrow. We all have to be here tomorrow. MR. GRANT: Yes. My Lord, I — THE COURT: I'm sorry, Mr. Grant. Are these extra copies, Madam Registrar? THE REGISTRAR: Yes, My Lord. MR. GRANT: I would ask if maybe my friend or Miss Sigurdson could provide me with extra copies so I can review them. THE COURT: Why don't you take my copies, Mr. Grant, unless they have extra copies already. MR. GRANT: Yes, they do. THE COURT: All right. MR. GRANT: My Lord, I am prepared to call the next witness, who is Miss Dora Wilson-Kenni, to the stand please. And I have arranged or it has been arranged that there is an updated word list. And I just ask Mr. Mitchell to look at that to be sure that's correct before I distribute it. Now, I believe this is a repetition of the previous Wet'suwet'en word list. DORA WILSON-KENNI, a witness called on behalf of the Plaintiff, having been duly sworn, testifies as follows: THE REGISTRAR: Could you state your name for the record, please, and spell your last name? THE WITNESS: Dora Wilson-Kenni, W-i-1-s-o-n - K-e-n-n-i. THE REGISTRAR: Thank you. EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT: Q Mrs. Wilson-Kenni you are a Gitksan person? A Yes. Q And you are a chief in the house of Spookw? A Yes. Q And your chief's name is Yaga'lahl? A Yaga'lahl, yes. MR. GRANT: That is number? THE TRANSLATOR: 260. 4063 D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. THE THE THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. MR. THE MR. THE GRANT: 260. TRANSLATOR: Yes. COURT: Is that on the Wet'suwet'en list? TRANSLATOR: Yes. GRANT: Yes, it is. There will be some cross over with the Gitksan words. I will endeavour to spell them as Mr. Mitchell will take care -- COURT: Thank you. GRANT: Q Can you tell the court what that name means? A It means taking a rest on the mountain side. It's the way a person is taking a rest on the mountain side, and it's hard to describe. It's like the mountain goats, they lay side by side taking a rest on the mountain side. Q And is that an old name in the house? A Yes, it is. Q Who is the present holder of the name Spookw? A Steve Robinson. Q And he is a Gitksan? A Yes. Q And — COURT: I'm sorry, Spookw is a Gitksan house, is it? GRANT: Yes, it's a plaintiff in the action. It's S-p-o-o-k-w on the style of cause. COURT: Thank you. GRANT: Q And he is the head chief of the house? A Yes. Q You were born on October 15th, 1939? A Yes. Q And you were born in what's been referred to as Hagwilget? A Yes. Q And you were born in the house of Able Joseph's mother? A Yes. Q And was Able Joseph's mother involved at the time of your birth? A She was the midwife and she was assisted by my grandmother. Q And who is your grandmother? A My grandmother was Martha Wilson. She was Yaga'lahl. GRANT: 2 60, My Lord. COURT: 216? GRANT: 260. COURT: Thank you. 4064 D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. THE MR. THE THE THE MR. THE MR. GRANT: Q And was Abie's mother Lucy Joseph? A Yes. Q And would you describe her as being the midwife at the time you were born? A Well, I guess that's what they call the doctors in those days who attended the women who were going to give birth to a child. Midwife is the only word I could think of. Q Okay. And was it -- was that a common practise among the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en to use women to assist in births at home? A Yes. Q Did you see that as you were growing up? A I remember my grandmother doing that. The one I especially remember was when my cousin was born, and that was Louise Sebastian, and I remember that at that time our house was just being built and just the floor had been put down, and we were sitting on this. My aunt was ready to have her baby and my grandmother was in the house where we lived before our new house was built, and I remember we were all sitting there waiting to hear the baby cry and find out whether it was a boy or a girl. I remember my grandmother coming out, you know, smiling, and she said it was a girl. And that was October 14th, 1949 when Louise was born. My grandmother was the midwife at that time. Q And there was no doctors, medical doctors, non Indian doctors present at Louise's birth? A No. Q Now, your mother is Margaret Austin? A Yes. Q And does she hold a name? A Yes. Her name is Saaniilen. Saaniilen. TRANSLATOR: 261. GRANT: 261. And what does that name mean? Saaniilen means looking at the moon. Is it a Wet'suwet'en or a Gitksan word? Wet'suwet'en word. I'm sorry? It's a Wet'suwet'en word. Thank you. I'm sorry, My Lord. That's all right. Q A Q A COURT: WITNESS COURT GRANT COURT GRANT Q And what house is that name in? 4065 D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 A Spookw. 2 Q You described your grandmother, Martha Wilson. When 3 was she born? 4 A She was born December 28th, 1905. 5 Q And do you recall when she -- she has died? 6 A She died on March 21st, 1962. 7 Q You have a brother, Wilfred Wilson? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And he holds the name Wo'o? 10 A Yes. Uh-huh. 11 Q And he was raised by your Uncle Wilson? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And Willie Wilson was your grandmother's brother? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Willie -- your Uncle Willie was married; is that 16 right? 17 A Yes. 18 Q But he had no children of his own? 19 A No, he and his wife didn't have any children. That's 20 why he had Wilfred. 21 Q Do you recall the name that Willie, your Uncle Willie 22 held? 23 A Gwintsukxw. 24 THE TRANSLATOR: 662. 2 5 MR. GRANT: 26 Q And what does that -- is that a Gitksan or 27 Wet'suwet'en word? 28 A That's a Gitksan word. 29 Q What does it mean? 30 A Always hunting. 31 Q And what -- is that -- what house is that name from? 32 A Spookw. 33 Q Okay. 34 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Mr. Grant, I didn't get the name of the 35 brother of the witness, Wilfred Wilson. She gave a 36 name but I didn't get it. 37 THE TRANSLATOR: 259. 38 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Grant. 3 9 MR. GRANT: 40 Q Your brother's name was Wo'o? 41 A Wo'o. 42 Q You said that your grandmother held the name that you 43 presently hold? 44 A Yes. 45 Q Do you know who held the name before your grandmother? 4 6 A My great grandmother. 47 Q And did she also have a non-Indian name that you know 4066 D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant her as? Mary, Mary Yaga'lahl. And she was married to Abraham Wilson? Yes. : At this point, My Lord, I would like to tender a document book for Miss Wilson-Kenni, and the one with the sticky on it is the exhibit. It's an original copy for the court clerk. Thank you. Now, first of all I would like to show you the photograph at tab -- Mr. Grant, can I stop you and maybe you can clear up a problem I have. Yes. If the mother of the witness, Margaret Austin, was -- oh, I'm sorry, she had a Wet'suwet'en name but she was in the house of Spookw, which is a Gitksan? Yes. All right. It's the name that's a -- I will come to that point now. I was going to come to it, but I will raise it right now. : Thank you. Your mother, Margaret Austin, you described has a Wet'suwet'en name, that her name is Wet'suwet'en; is that right? Yes. But she is in a Gitksan house? Yes. And that name, that Wet'suwet'en name, is in that Gitksan house? Yes. Is Spookw closely related to any Wet'suwet'en houses? Is there a close connection that is demonstrated in the feast hall between Spookw and any Wet'suwet'en houses? Well, there is a close connection with Gisdaywa. And that's Kaiyexweniits, the house that you are referring to? Yes. Are there other names in Spookw's house which are Wet'suwet'en words that you can think of at this time? I'm sure there are, but I can't get it right now. Maybe I can answer that later. Spookw has a territory? Yes. Is that territory close to or far from the 1 2 A 3 Q 4 A 5 MR. GRANT 6 7 8 9 MR. GRANT 10 Q 11 12 THE COURT 13 14 MR. GRANT 15 THE COURT 16 17 18 MR. GRANT 19 THE COURT 20 MR. GRANT 21 22 THE COURT 23 MR. GRANT 24 Q 25 26 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 Q 31 32 A 33 Q 34 35 36 37 A 38 Q 39 40 A 41 Q 42 43 A 44 45 Q 46 A 47 Q 4067 D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. THE MR. Wet'suwet'en territories? A Close to. Q Does it border on the Wet'suwet'en territory? A I think so. GRANT: Okay. I would ask if the exhibit could be - I'm sorry, haven't marked it as an exhibit yet. document could be put in front of the witness. Yes. or, The COURT GRANT Q THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. I would ask you to turn firstly to Tab 2, and in Tab there is a photograph. And can you identify those persons in regalia in the photograph going, I guess, from left to right? A On the left is Mahleeh. It's Sylvester George. Q And he is a Wet'suwet'en chief? A He is Wet'suwet'en. TRANSLATOR: That's 107. GRANT: 107. WITNESS: He's from the house of Gisdaywa. And in the middle is K'akl', Philip Austin. GRANT: Just a moment. TRANSLATOR: 669. GRANT COURT GRANT Q A Q A A Q A Q A A Q A Q 669, My Lord. Okay. And is he a Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en chief? He is Wet'suwet'en. House of Hagwilnegh. Okay. And the next one? It's my grandmother, Martha Wilson, Yaga'lahl, house of Spookw, Gitksan. And do you know either of those two girls that seem to be just standing behind your grandmother? That's one of my buddies in school on the left there. Gail Dupas. Gail Dupas. D-u-p-a-s, I believe. Is that right? Yes. I can't remember who it is on the right. Well, is Gail Dupas about the same age as you? Yes, she is the same age as I am. We went to school together. Okay. Were you present at the time that this photograph was taken? Do you know where it was taken? I'm sure I was around there because Gail is there, but I don't remember who took this picture. Do you know where it was taken? I believe down in Hazelton. And your grandmother is wearing regalia. Do you recognize that regalia? Let me ask you this: Did you 4068 D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 A 3 4 5 6 MR. GRANT 7 8 THE COURT 9 THE REGIS 10 11 12 13 14 15 MR. GRANT 16 Q 17 18 19 20 21 A 22 Q 23 24 A 25 Q 26 27 THE COURT 28 29 MR. GRANT 30 THE COURT 31 MR. GRANT 32 THE COURT 33 MR. GRANT 34 THE COURT 35 MR. GRANT 36 Q 37 38 A 39 Q 40 41 A 42 Q 43 A 44 Q 45 A 46 Q 47 see that regalia yourself in that regalia at any time? Somehow looking at it here on the picture, I can't remember her wearing it. I'm sure she did, but I can't say that I can remember right now whether I did see her with it on myself. All right. I would ask that that Tab 3 be marked as the next exhibit. Yes. ?RAR: Exhibit 314, Tab 2. (EXHIBIT 314 - TAB TWO - BLACK AND WHITE PHOTO - L to R - SYLVESTER GEORGE, PHILLIP AUSTIN, MARTHA WILSON IN REGALIA) I'm sorry. Yes, it's Tab 2. Thank you. Now, I would like to refer you to Tab 1 of that same document book. This is a document labelled the genealogy -- or it's labelled Wilps, Spookw; Clan, Lax Gibuu; Village, Gitanmaax; February 19th, 1988. Have you looked at this document before today? Yes. Can you tell the Court what it is or what it represents? It's the genealogy of Spookw. Okay. And I would ask you to refer to page 7. The pages are numbered on the bottom. Remind me, Mr. Grant, if you will please, Gitanmaax is Hazelton? Yes, Gitanmaax is the Indian community of Hazelton. The old Hazelton down the -- It's -- the Indian village is up above old Hazelton. On the hill just overlooking the -- Townsite, yes. Page 7? Yes. Now, there is a name there, Dora Kenni Yaga'lahl. That represents yourself? Yes. And your correct name is Dora Wilson-Kenni, as you described it? Yes. And you are married to Donald Kenni? Yes. And you have had three children of your own? Yes. And one child, Abraham Wilson-Kenni, who you have adopted? 4069 D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 A Yes. 2 Q Okay. Now, can you just turn over the page to page 8. 3 If you follow that line, that's the bottom line from 4 the left-hand side, it goes up to Margaret Wilson? 5 A Uh-huh. 6 Q And that is your mother? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And she's now known as Margaret Austin? 9 A Yes. 10 Q She's married to Charlie Austin? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And she -- and you and your brother, Wilfred, she had 13 both of you before she was married to Charlie Austin; 14 is that right? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Now, going onto page 8 and page 9. Is it correct that 17 her other children are George, Jeannette, Leonard, 18 Irene, Victor, Ida? Turning over to page 10, Robert, 19 Rita and Chuckie; is that right? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Those are all her other children? 22 A It continues on on page 11. 23 Q I'm sorry. Thank you. Cora and Lloyd? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And all of Margaret Wilson's children are in Spookw's 26 house? 27 A Yes. 28 Q And two -- and the dots in the names represent those 29 who have died; is that right? 30 A Yes. 31 Q Okay. Now, following the line, Margaret's on page 8 32 and 9, My Lord. Margaret had a brother, Alfred 33 Wilson? 34 A Yes. 35 Q And going back again to page 7 and page 6, she also 36 had a sister, Rose Wilson, and two other brothers, 37 Peter Wilson and James Joseph? 38 A Yes. 39 Q Is that right? 40 A Yes. 41 Q And once again they are -- they all are or were, when 42 they were alive, in the house of Spookw? 43 A Yes. 44 Q And up above, just above Peter Wilson on page 6 there 45 is a reference to Martha Wilson, Yaga'lahl. That is 46 your grandmother whom you have been referring to; is 47 that right? 4070 D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 A I'm sorry, what did you say? 2 Q If you see on page 6. 3 A Yes. 4 Q Just above Peter Wilson and Rose Wilson there is a 5 reference to Martha Wilson Yaga'lahl. 6 A Yes. 7 Q And that is your grandmother who you have referred to? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And it says there "D - 3rd, 25th, '61". That's in 10 error. You have described that as 1962? 11 A Oh, right, it's '62. This is — this '61 here is 12 wrong. 13 Q Okay. Now, Martha, your grandmother -- 14 A That 25th is wrong there. Should be the 21st. 15 Q The 21st? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Okay. Martha, your mother. You have already referred 18 to your Uncle Willie Wilson, and he is referred to on 19 page 6 as your grandmother's brother, right? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And she also had a brother, Matthew Wilson? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Going back to the page before, My Lord, pages 5 and 4, 24 she had a brother, Joe Wilson, a sister, Elizabeth 25 Wilson, another sister, Matilda Wilson. Going again 26 back to pages 3 and 2, a brother, Michell Wilson, 27 another brother, John Wilson, and a sister, Josephine 28 Wilson; is that right? 29 A Yes. 30 Q Now, I would like to refer you again to pages 4 and 5, 31 and particularly page 5. And there it refers to, at 32 the top line on page 5, Mary Yaga'lahl. That is your 33 great grandmother that you have referred to; is that 34 right? 35 A Yes. 36 Q And she was the one married to Abraham Wilson? 37 A Yes. 38 Q And she — 39 A You know, there is one thing that is missing on here. 40 There is a baby that died in child birth, and the baby 41 was buried with her. 42 Q Mary did? 43 A Yes. The baby was born and then they were both buried 44 together. It's not on here. 45 Q This would be -- this baby would be a sister of your 46 grandmother, Martha? 47 A Yes. 4071 D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 THE COURT: Mr. Grant, I notice that the word list spells Yaga'lahl with a G and the genealogy seems to spell it with an X. MR. GRANT: Well, I would defer to the word list in that situation. COURT: You would? GRANT: Yes, My Lord, for consistency. WITNESS: That's because the sounds in the Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en, the Gitksan use an X underlined. COURT: How do you spell it? WITNESS: With a G. THE MR. THE THE THE THE MR. THE MR. COURT: GRANT: COURT GRANT Q Thank you. All right. In the circumstances this is a little more difficult because Mr. words. Yes. Mitchell has to deal with some Gitksan THE MR. THE MR. I would like to refer you to page -- well, I took you to Mary Yaga'lahl. Your great grandmother married to Abraham Wilson, and I will come back to Abraham Wilson later. But going over to the next page, pages 6 and 7, Mary Yaga'lahl had a brother, Johnny Patsey; is that right? A Yes. Q And is it correct that he held the name Spookw? A Yes. Q Do you know approximately when Johnny Patsy died? A I think -- I'm not too sure, but I think it was around 1924. Q It could have been 1923? A Somehow 24 comes to my mind, not 23. I don't know why. Q And your grandmother -- I refer to page 22, My Lord -- your great grandmother I should say had a sister, Christine Tom? I am referring to page 21. A Yes. Q And she married Alexander Gitludahl? A Yes. TRANSLATOR: Sorry, did you saw say Gitludahl? GRANT: G-i-t-1-u — WITNESS: — d-a-h-1. GRANT: My Lord, it may be with two u's in the pleadings, I can't recall, but it's a named plaintiff. Q Now, again going back to page 6. There is a reference at the very top line to Marg or Margaret Yaga'lahl. This is on page 6 of the very top line on page 6. A Yes, that should be Margaret. 4072 D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A MR. GRANT That should be Margaret Yaga'lahl? Yes. And she was your great grandmother's mother; is that right? She was Mary Yaga'lahl's mother? Yes. And Margaret Yaga'lahl was the sister of Fanny Spookw? Yes. And she was the sister of Azel Duncan? Yes. Azel Duncan is referred to on page 31 and page 32 of the genealogy of Fanny Spookw. Have you reviewed the balance of this genealogy? Have you gone over this document that is in Tab 1? Yes. And aside from the corrections that you have made, does it accurately set out the members of the house of Spookw? Yes. Both living and some who are deceased? Uh-huh, yes. : I would ask that this document be marked as the next exhibit, My Lord. THE COURT: Yes. THE REGISTRAR: Exhibit 315, Tab 1. MR. GRANT: And it may be a convenient place to break. THE WITNESS: Oh, there is one name that's in here that's — I think there is a mistake in there. Oh, its been corrected. Noxs Kalea. MR. GRANT: Q And just to be clear, it not only includes the members of the house of Spookw but also their spouses, their husbands and wives who are not in the house of Spookw; is that right? A Yes. THE COURT: All right. Thank you, Mr. Grant. Two o'clock. THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY. LORI OXLEY OFFICIAL REPORTER UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 4073 D. Wilson-Kenni (for plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A LUNCH ADJOURNMENT) THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen at bar, my lord. Mr. Grant? THE COURT MR. GRANT Q MR. 1. Now, Thank you, my lord. Yes. I refer you to Tab page -- page 6 of Tab 1, it refers to your grandmother, Martha Wilson, there as having married Paul Baptist. And she married Paul Baptist on page 6? Yes. And he was a Wet'suwet'en person from the House of Wah tah K'eght? Yes. And did she then live with another person after Paul Baptist? Yes. And who was that? John Robertson. Okay. Between Paul Baptist and John Robertson, did she live with anyone else? Abel Joseph. And was Abel Joseph a Gitksan person? Yes. From Kitsegukla, Gisk'aast or the fireweed clan? Yes. That's G-i-s-k-a-a-s-t, my lord. Now, Abel Joseph was Angeline Thomas' brother; is that right? Yes. MACKENZIE: My lord, I haven't objected to this form of questioning so far and perhaps objections haven't been made to leading questions when the genealogies are being put in so far in the trial, but, my lord, this is a particularly long genealogy, 34 pages. And in my submission, this witness is going to be called upon to prove this genealogy and Mr. Grant is now suggesting the answers for all these questions to Mrs. Wilson-Kenni. Well, the part that -- the suggestion that there are leading questions doesn't trouble me greatly. What troubles me more seriously, Mr. Grant, is any of this necessary? Well — I can remember the happy days when in the case of this kind counsel merely put the document to the witness and said, "Is that the correct genealogy?" And if she says yes, you can stop and leave it to his A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A THE COURT MR. GRANT THE COURT 4074 D. Wilson-Kenni (for plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 friend to disprove it. Now, I haven't sought to 2 instruct counsel, which word I put in quotation marks, 3 in this connection. Is it necessary to go through the 4 genealogy and have her explain it? 5 MR. GRANT: No, my lord. First of all, as you can see on page 6 6, the starting point was Martha Wilson. There it's 7 indicative that she married Paul Baptist. The 8 reference I'm giving you to Abel Joseph and his 9 relationships are not on this document. If they were, 10 it would not be necessary at all, because she says she 11 has gone through the document and it's established. 12 With respect to the point that I'm leading, I 13 readily admit I'm leading. If it is an issue as to 14 whether or not Abel Joseph was the brother of Angeline 15 Tommy, then I won't lead on that, but I'm trying to 16 expedite matters by leading on things that I did not 17 think were contentious. They're not in the genealogy 18 and they're matters that -- it's just a time saving 19 matter. And the reference to Abel Joseph, this is to 20 something particular that's not on the genealogy that 21 I'm leading. 22 THE COURT: I'm a captive of counsel in this area. If counsel 23 object to leading questions, then it seems to me that 24 I have to rule according to law on the objections. 25 Your friend's objecting, Mr. Grant. I can't do much 26 about that except to say that I think with respect to 27 the objection, it may be legally well founded. 2 8 MR. GRANT: 29 Q Well, I'm not going to dispute the fact that I was 30 leading. If my friend is concerned about it, I won't 31 lead. 32 Okay. I think where we were was that you said 33 that Abel Joseph was Angeline Thomas' brother? 34 A Yes. 35 Q Okay. Was she Gitksan, Angeline Tommy? 36 A Yes. 37 Q And who -- who did she marry? 38 A Louie Tommy. 39 Q Louie Tommy? Was he Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en? 40 A I think he was Wet'suwet'en. 41 Q And did they have children, Angeline and Louie Tommy? 42 A Yes. 43 Q Did they have a daughter? 44 A Yes. 45 Q And who was that? What was her name? 46 A Well, the one that -- that I knew was Camelia. 47 Q That's C-a-m-e-1-i-a. Now, none of Abel Joseph or 4075 D. Wilson-Kenni (for plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 Angeline Tommy or Camelia Wilson are in Spookw's 2 house, right? 3 A No. 4 Q So they're not on this genealogy. Now, Camelia 5 Wilson, was she Gitksan? Angeline and Louie's 6 daughter, Camelia, was she Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en? 7 A Say that again. 8 Q Okay. We followed through to Angeline Tommy, who 9 married Louie Tommy, and they had a daughter, Camelia. 10 Under Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en law, was she Gitksan or 11 was she Wet'suwet'en? 12 A Gitksan. 13 Q And did Camelia Wilson have any daughters? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Who are they? 16 A There's -- there's Catherine, Catherine Arsonault, and 17 Augustine Morris. 18 Q Okay. Arsonault is A-r-s-o-n-a-u-l-t. And are 19 they -- under Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en law, are they 20 Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en? 21 A Gitksan. 22 Q Now, you've indicated in evidence that your 23 grandmother, Martha Wilson, lived with John Robertson. 24 Now -- and you've described, and it's on the 25 genealogy, the children of Martha Wilson. Are they -- 26 are her children -- what house are her children in? 27 A Martha Wilson? Children are under the House of 28 Spookw. 29 Q And what about the children of her daughters? 30 A They're under the House of Spookw. 31 Q And in the case of you, the children of her daughters' 32 daughters? 33 A Spookw. 34 Q Okay. And they would all be Gitksan? 35 A Yes. 36 Q And there was one point that his lordship raised 37 before the lunch break, and that was regarding your 38 mother's name, which was a Wet'suwet'en name. 39 Margaret Wilson's name was a Wet'suwet'en name. Was 40 Margaret Wilson -- under Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en law, 41 is she Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en? 42 A She's Gitksan. 43 Q When did you meet your husband? 44 A I met him about 1955. 45 Q And you married him? 46 A 1959. 47 Q And has he been adopted into the Gitksan or 4076 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 D. Wilson-Kenni (for plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant Wet'suwet'en systems? A Yes. Q Okay. What house and what group? A He was adopted into the House of Hagwilnegh and his name is 'Agh diiniiyet, and 'Agh diiniiyet is a Gitksan name that means he without grandfather. And I believe your lordship has Hagwilnegh. Yes. that on the list? MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. GRANT COURT GRANT SPELLER GRANT COURT GRANT Q And 'Agh diiniiyet, is 664. 664. Thank you. And that name you say is Gitksan, is a Gitksan word? A It's a Gitksan word. Q Now, after you married your husband in 1959, can you tell the Court where you lived? A We lived in various places. It depended on where he was working at the time. Q How often did you go to Hagwilget or go home when you were with your husband? A We -- we went home quite often. We were never away for, like, a year. We were never away that long. We always went home, and sometimes we lived there a month or two with my grandmother and then we'd leave again. Q Around the time of your grandmother's death were you living at Hagwilget or in the Hazelton area? A We were living right there in the village, right next door to my grandmother when she died. Q Okay. And you are presently the band manager of Hagwilget? A Yes, I am. Q And how long have you held that position? A I've been there since the end of April of 1979. THE COURT: '7 9? THE WITNESS: '79. THE COURT: Thank you. MR. GRANT: Q Now, during -- after your marriage did you continue to participate in the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en feasting? A I took part in the feasts that I was aware of and if I wasn't able to make it, my mother and Margaret always made sure that something -- she put something in there for me. Q Okay. And did you -- did you attend any feasts in that period of time after 1959 to, say -- till, let's say, the time of your grandmother's death? 4077 D. Wilson-Kenni (for plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 A Yes. 2 Q Okay. 3 A I can't remember how many. There were quite a number. 4 Q Okay. And do you attend feasts today? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Do you attend Wet'suwet'en feasts? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Do you attend Gitksan feasts? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And do you -- did you attend both Gitksan and 11 Wet'suwet'en feasts then or just one? 12 A Yes, I did. 13 Q I'd ask the registrar to put Exhibit 62, please. I 14 can move into another area and come back to that. I'm 15 sorry, my lord. I can leave it for now and I'll deal 16 with it after the break. 17 Mrs. Kenni, what is the first language that you 18 learned? 19 A Wet'suwet'en. 20 Q Okay. And you speak Wet'suwet'en today? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And you obviously speak English? 23 A Um-hum. Yes. 24 Q Do you speak Gitksan? 25 A I understand it, but I don't speak it. 26 Q Okay. Just before going on, I refer you to Exhibit 27 62, Tab 2. This is the document book that was put in 28 during the evidence of Alfred Joseph. And I believe 29 this -- the evidence indicates that this was the 30 seating chart for his house. Now, I just note -- and 31 this was a seating chart in the Wet'suwet'en feast 32 hall. Now, do you recognize that as representative of 33 seating among the Wet'suwet'en in the Wet'suwet'en 34 feast hall? 35 A Yes. 36 Q And do you -- I refer you to the -- I guess it's the 37 back row, the same row as Alfred Joseph is on. Six 38 seats to his right is Dora W. Kenni. Is that your 39 seat? 40 A Yes. 41 Q And beside you is Wilfred Wilson. And that is your 42 brother? 43 A My brother, yes. 44 Q And Margaret Austin, your mother -- 45 A Yes. 46 Q -- on your other side. And are those -- can you -- 47 those persons, you've already indicated, are in the 4078 D. Wilson-Kenni (for plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 House of Spookw? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Do you as a member of the House of Spookw have seating 4 rights in the Wet'suwet'en feast hall? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Do you have -- 7 A Yes. 8 Q And did your grandmother tell you whether those 9 seating rights for your name were those seating 10 rights -- did they apply at the time that she held the 11 name Yaga'lahl? 12 A Yes. As far as I know. 13 Q Do you have seating rights as a member of the House of 14 Spookw in the Gitksan feast hall as well? 15 A Yes. 16 Q I'll be referring back to this later. I'll wait until 17 after the break. Now, as I started to do, I was going 18 to ask you about your education and your background, 19 your training. Now, firstly, you've indicated that 20 you speak Wet'suwet'en and that was your first 21 language? 22 A Um-hum. 23 Q And where did you go to school? 24 A Went to school at Hagwilget. It was a little log 25 house there right in the middle of the village where I 26 went to school. 27 Q And do you know whose house that was? 28 A It belonged to Joseph Nahloochs. 29 THE SPELLER: 100. 30 MR. GRANT: Sorry? 31 THE SPELLER: 100. 32 MR. GRANT: 33 Q Thank you. And what -- what grades did you go to 34 school there in Hagwilget, up to what grade? 35 A The school at Hagwilget just went to Grade 7, like 36 from Grade 1 to Grade 7. Then I had to go to Hazelton 37 High School for Grade 8. 38 Q Now, when you were at school in Hagwilget, was there 39 more than one class? 40 A No. There was just one room and that's where -- the 41 Grade 1 to 7 were all in this one room. 42 Q Okay. 43 A So starting with Grade 8, you had to go to Hazelton to 44 the high school, and I went to high school until I was 45 in Grade 10. 46 Q Before you went to school, did you know any English? 47 A Yes. 4079 D. Wilson-Kenni (for plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 Q And who taught you English? 2 A My grandmother. 3 Q Okay. 4 A Well, she spoke in the home with John, John Robertson. 5 Q She spoke English with him? 6 A Yes. He didn't understand our language. 7 Q Okay. So she spoke to you in both English and 8 Wet'suwet'en? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And were you raised by your grandmother? 11 A Yes. I was raised by my grandmother. 12 Q And you often referred to her as your mother? 13 A Yes. Well, until I was 13 years old I believed she 14 was my mother. 15 Q Okay. Was there any -- was Wet'suwet'en language used 16 or taught at all in the school when you were in 17 school? 18 A No. 19 Q Was any aspect of the Wet'suwet'en laws taught in the 20 school? 21 A No. 22 Q Or any aspect of training regarding the territory 23 taught in the school? 24 A No. 25 Q What about Gitksan laws? Were they taught in the 26 school? 27 A No. There's nothing like that taught to us. 28 Q Now, you said you went to Grade 8 at the high school? 29 A No. I had to go to high school when I started Grade 30 8. 31 Q Okay. 32 A And I just went as far as Grade 10 in the high school. 33 Q Okay. Did you ever go to residential school? You 34 know what I mean by residential? 35 A Yes. I do know what you mean. I almost landed in 36 one, but my grandmother didn't want me to go. The 37 teacher that I had when I was in Grade 7 was trying to 38 encourage me to go to residential school in Kamloops, 39 and my grandmother didn't want me to go because -- 40 well, really there were too many children in the home 41 for her to look after alone and I was helping. I was 42 able to help her at the time. 43 Q At that time when you were in Grade 7 and Grade 8, 44 about how many children was your grandmother raising? 45 A There was about -- well, there's about 13 of us 46 altogether. There was children from one of my aunts 47 and one family from my uncle, so with Wilfred and 4080 D. Wilson-Kenni (for plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 myself, that totalled 13. 2 Q Wilfred being your brother? 3 A My brother. 4 Q And how -- what was the range of ages of the children 5 that were in the home then? 6 A From five months -- there's -- actually, there's two 7 children, five months and there was another one seven 8 months older than the five month old, so there was two 9 babies and then I was the oldest. 10 Q Now, you stopped going to school in Grade 10? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And why was that? 13 A Well, I had to help out at home a lot more. 14 Q Now, did you return to take any courses after Grade 10 15 in school, either academic or other kinds of courses? 16 And I refer you particularly to the time around 1969. 17 A Well, I took a lot of different courses, not -- I 18 don't know if I can remember them all. I took a silk 19 screening course in night classes with Doreen Jensen 20 and that led me to working with her at Ksan doing silk 21 screening, and from there I got interested in the 22 courses that were offered at Ksan in Indian arts and 23 the art form and the carving, and that was about a 24 24-month course, and that's done in two -- two phases 25 for that course. And also I took a Chilkat blanket 26 weaving course. That was at Ksan. 27 Q Can you explain to the Court what you mean by Chilkat 28 blankets? 29 A It's a blanket that's -- that's woven on -- I guess a 30 long time ago they used to use cedar bark and do 31 weaving on it with mountain goat wool. And there's a 32 type of twining, like weaving, that was done on that 33 and it's very interesting. I can't explain how to do 34 weaving to you, but that's one of the things that I 35 did. And -- 36 Q And that's one of the things you were taught, how to 37 make these? 38 A Yes. And then — 39 Q Just before you leave that, is that -- which group -- 40 or who was involved in the making of or using of 41 Chilkat blankets? Were either the Gitksan or 42 Wet'suwet'en involved in using Chilkat blankets? 43 A The Gitksan. I think they call that Kweese halayt 44 when they wear that. That's what they call that 45 blanket, Kweese halayt. That's the name of the 46 blanket. 47 MR. GRANT: Do you wish to make a -- do you wish to give us a 4081 D. Wilson-Kenni (for plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 no. I'm sorry h-a-1-a-y-t. spelling for that? THE SPELLER: K-w-e-e-s-e-a-1 MR. GRANT: Q I'll try to minimize the confusion, my lord, but before we go on, Mr. Mitchell may give some spellings of these Gitksan words and they may be changed by the witness. Did you travel at the time -- or demonstrate the way of making Chilkat blankets after you took that course? A Oh, yeah. That course, it's interesting that it led me to be chosen as one of eight people across Canada during that bicentennial year to the States, and I went to Washington D.C. to demonstrate the weaving of that blanket, and I had to take all these things, loom and all the materials along with me. It was quite a trip. Q So, in fact, in the course you -- although you can't describe it in the Court without them, in the course you actually learned how to make them? A That's right. The loom itself is like two uprights and then a bar across and then the -- the warp is hung from that, and that was of cedar bark. That cedar bark was pounded and it was rolled and it made something like twine, eh. And then the mountain goat wool was used and that was woven. They use different dyes too and dyed the mountain goat wool. They used black, sort of bluish-green and yellow. That I remember. Especially on that piece that I was working on. And that was -- that type of weaving was always -- also done to -- to weave leggings to go with the -- the blanket. And only the chiefs wore that blanket. And the leggings would compliment the blanket. It was a woven piece too. Q In the course of that course, did you see photographs or actual Chilkat blankets or photographs of such blankets that had been used by Gitksan chiefs? A We had one hanging in the museum, Ksan. MR. GRANT: That's K-s-a-n. That's the museum at Hazelton that's been referred to. Is it just one A, K-s-a-n? THE COURT MR. GRANT Q A Yes. And the carving course that you took, was this basically wood carving or did it involve using metals as well? No. It didn't go into metals. We were taught the art form first and then we were -- we were taught to make 4082 D. Wilson-Kenni (for plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 our own tools, you know, the bent knives, the 2 different adz, de adz and elbow adz. There must be 3 about three or four different shapes of knives that we 4 had to learn how to make ourselves. And, like, I made 5 a real small set and then I made a large set. Like, 6 the small set would be used in doing work on rattles 7 and the larger set would be used in larger pieces like 8 masks right up to totem pole size. So the elbow adz 9 and the de adz. And, no, I didn't do any metal. But 10 we had to do masks. We had to do poles. We had to do 11 cradles. We had to do clan hut, things like that, 12 rattles. 13 Q Out of wood? 14 A Out of wood. 15 Q And you did all those things? 16 A Yeah. 17 Q Now, after you had taken these courses, were you 18 involved in actually working at Ksan? 19 A Yes. It was through working with Doreen Jensen -- 20 like, when I took that course, silk screening with 21 her, it was through working with her. We were working 22 doing silk screening for Ksan and at that time Mary 23 McKenzie was working at Ksan and -- 24 Q That's the Mary McKenzie who was a witness? 25 A Gyolugyet. 26 Q Gyolugyet? 27 A Yes. And she asked me if I was interested in going to 28 work with them as a tour guide, and I said no. But 29 she said, "Why don't you try it for a couple of 30 weeks?" And at that time my children were quite young 31 and I wanted to be home when they came home from 32 school. And she was quite accommodating. She said, 33 "Well, you could leave before they came out of 34 school". So I went to work there and then I wound up 35 staying there for eight years. 36 Q Okay. And so that was from around what year? 37 A 1970 to '78. 38 Q Okay. And in 1978 did you do further upgrading on 39 your education? 40 A Well, I went back to school in 1978. I felt -- you 41 know, I took a bookkeeping course in high -- in night 42 courses that they have at the high school and -- but I 43 still wanted to learn more and so I was interested in 44 going back to school and found a programme that was 45 offered at Capilano College and so I went there. They 46 had one of those courses for mature students, and it 47 was an accelerated course in business administration, 4083 D. Wilson-Kenni (for plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 so I did that and that was the fall of '78. 2 Q And over what -- 3 A And finished eight months. It was actually 10 months, 4 but I didn't do the first two months because I was 5 given credit for the experience that I had already 6 because I was manager at Ksan when I left there -- 7 Q How many years -- 8 A -- to go to school. 9 Q How many years did you manage Ksan? 10 A 1975. 11 Q So for three years? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And after you left, finished your business course -- 14 you completed that course? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And then what did you do? 17 A Well, I had every intention of going back to work at 18 Ksan, but after taking the course, I found out that 19 Hagwilget was looking for a band manager, and also 20 Alfred Joseph was the chief counsellor at the time and 21 he knew that I had gone back to school and he 22 approached me asking me if I was interested in that 23 job. And after talking it over with him a couple of 24 times, I went and talked to them, but first I had to 25 talk to the people at the -- at Ksan because although 26 I didn't tell them that I was coming back there, I 27 felt that they should know that I was considering 28 another job. And so after speaking with them and 29 telling them my choice, I went to work at Hagwilget. 30 Q And that's where you've worked ever since? 31 A Yes. I've been there ever since. 32 Q Well, I'd like to go back to another aspect of your 33 training, and that is, I'd like to ask you whether 34 your grandmother -- or I should say whether your uncle 35 when you were a child was involved in training you at 36 all with regards to the territory or doing things on 37 the territory. I'm referring to your Uncle Willy? 38 A My Uncle Willy was a hunter. And I don't know. He 39 was a special person to me. It's hard for me to talk 40 about him. He did a lot of hunting and fishing and he 41 did -- but I think he did very little of actually 42 trapping, but he did show me how to set traps, and 43 this was in behind the village of Hagwilget. Like, 44 that would be on the south side, I guess you would 45 call it, where Mary Duncan used to live, and behind 46 there I used to have a sort of line in there where we 47 had traps set. He would set them for me and then 4084 D. Wilson-Kenni (for plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q 10 11 12 A 13 Q 14 15 16 A 17 MR. GRANT 18 THE COURT 19 20 21 22 MR. GRANT 23 Q 24 25 A 26 MR. GRANT 27 28 THE COURT 29 MR. GRANT 30 THE COURT 31 THE WITNE 32 33 MR. GRANT 34 Q 35 36 A 37 38 39 40 Q 41 A 42 43 44 Q 45 A 46 Q 47 after that I would have to learn to reset them myself. And, like, this was for -- for mainly weasel, and have me learn how to set snares for rabbit and for squirrel. And I remember, when I was 10 years old, he gave me one of his .22 single shot, .22, and I used to use that to go hunting in the evening for grouse, because in the evening they used to sit on the trees, eh. They were finished eating. This is your Uncle Willy, who is actually your grandmother's brother, and he's the one that was married to Euphrasie George; is that right? No. He was married to Alice Kangoot. Alice Kangoot. That's -- for the record, that's on page 6 and his wife's on page 7 of Exhibit 315. Whose territory was it where you trapped? Spookw. : Now, did you -- : Well, I'm sorry. I'm looking at this page 6 and 7. I thought you put to Mrs. Wilson-Kenni that Willy Wilson was married to Euphrasie George and she said no. She said, no, Alice Kangoot. Can you refer to page 6 and 7 there of the genealogy? Yes. : And you can see two equal signs there. You see Alice Kangoot on page 7, my lord. Yes. This would indicate he married both of them. Yes. Presumably at different times. 3S: But Alice was his wife before Euphrasie. I don't know why Euphrasie's on there first. Okay. But did he marry Euphrasie or was she his wife at some time later? He was married to Alice and they were together for a long time. They didn't have any children. And quite a while after they broke up, he was with this Euphrasie George. I see. And with her he had his only child, who is Irene, and we've acknowledged her in a couple of feasts that she's related to us, just to our uncle. But she's not in the House of Spookw? No, she isn't. Did your Uncle Willy teach you at all about what to do with the skins of the small animals that you trapped? 4085 D. Wilson-Kenni (for plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 A I had to make frames for drying the pelt on after 2 washing it and that and making sure that the pelt was 3 all cleaned, you know, of any excess and meat were all 4 scraped off and if I needed more frames, then I had to 5 do it myself. Once he showed me, I had to do it 6 myself. The only thing he didn't tell me was about 7 the squirrels, and the first time that I ever packed 8 home squirrels, I had it in a pack sack in my back 9 and, oh, I'm telling you, I just itched all over. The 10 fleas from the squirrels just bit me all up. That's 11 the only thing that I wasn't told, not to pack it on 12 my back. 13 Q Did your Uncle Willy also train your brother Wilfred? 14 A Yes. He -- he often took him out with him when he was 15 hunting. Never took me moose hunting or anything like 16 that, but Wilfred he did. 17 Q Okay. But did you ever help your Uncle Willy pack 18 back the meat from his hunts? 19 A Oh, yes. Yes. 2 0 Q And where did you go? When -- can you give -- not 21 every time but an example of where you went to get the 22 meat that he had killed? Do you recall -- can you 23 give an incident as an example of where he was 24 hunting? 25 A Well, one of the times that I remember is around the 26 Ross Lake area, and Wilfred and I had to go out and 27 help him. It -- my uncle used to invite other people 28 to come with him and if he went out hunting alone and 29 only got one moose, then we would have to share that 30 out with the village. But if he went out and he 31 got -- like, if he had other guys with him -- like, he 32 usually had some of the younger guys with him that he 33 would be teaching, eh, and a couple of those that I 34 remember he used to especially like taking with him 35 was Lawrence George and Roy Wilson. And when that 36 happened, well, then the -- the families of those boys 37 would come and help them pack, and that was all shared 38 out in the village. Everyone had meat when he went 39 out. 40 Q Lawrence George was from what house? First, was he -- 41 A Lawrence George was from the House of Smogelgem. 42 Q Was he Wet'suwet'en or Gitksan? 43 A He was Wet'suwet'en. 44 Q And I believe you mentioned who was the other -- 45 A Roy Wilson. 46 Q Oh, yes. And what house -- 47 A He was one of my cousins. Roy Wilson was from the 4086 D. Wilson-Kenni (for plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 Q 3 A 4 MR. GRANT 5 THE COURT 6 MR. GRANT 7 Q 8 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 14 A 15 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 MR. GRANT 21 THE COURT 22 THE SPELL 23 MR. GRANT 24 25 26 THE COURT 27 MR. GRANT 28 THE COURT 29 MR. GRANT 30 Q 31 32 A 33 Q 34 A 35 Q 36 37 38 A 39 40 41 42 43 Q 44 A 45 46 Q 47 House of Wii seeks. He was my Uncle Joe's son. And that is a Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en house? Gitksan. Do you have -- do you need spellings on that? No, thank you, unless Madam Reporter does. Was Roy Wilson -- is he related at all to Alfred Joseph, the Gisdaywa? Roy Wilson was his brother-in-law. That is his -- his wife's brother? His wife's brother. Okay. Now, do you -- do you recall when your brother Wilfred killed his first grouse? That's -- that was when we were up in the mountain, when we went up to Blue Lake. To Blue Lake? Yeah. That's up behind Stek'od'in. And do you know whose territory that's on? Spookw. And before -- I'm sorry. ,R: 665. Stek'od'in is 665, my lord. And she said that was on the territory of Spookw. Did you need that spelling? No. Did she say on the territory of Spookw? Yes. All right. And before you go on about that, you mentioned Ross Lake. Whose territory is Ross Lake on? Spookw. And is that fairly close to Hagwilget or -- Yes. It's fairly close. Okay. So you're describing -- I asked you about your brother, the first time he killed a grouse, and you said it was up at Blue Lake? Yeah. He -- he got a grouse up there, and he killed it with a sling-shot. And the thing is, with that first kill, he had to give that to -- he had to give that to — to Mr. and Mrs. Phillip Austin. That's Charlie's parents. Now -- Our mother's husband was Charlie Austin and so Wilfred had to give it to our stepfather's parents. Okay. And that Charles Austin, that's -- he's referred to on page 8, the husband of Margaret Wilson? 4087 D. Wilson-Kenni (for plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 A Yes. 2 Q And is that what he did? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Now, how often would your Uncle Willy go hunting? 5 A Well, whenever we needed meat, that's when he went 6 hunting. 7 Q Okay. Well, would this be more than once a year, for 8 example? 9 A Sometimes it could be more than once a year. 10 Q Okay. And do you recall his success rate as a hunter? 11 A No. We never doubted that he would, you know, come 12 home with something. We were very sure of it. 13 Q Do you recall any time when he went hunting that he 14 did not bring something home? 15 A I just don't remember it. He was a hunter. He knew 16 how to hunt. He knew the ways of animals. We used to 17 wait for him to come home at night. We would have the 18 tea on the stove for him and we'd have the frying pan 19 all ready because we knew he would bring home the 20 liver and the kidneys and the heart, and that would 21 be -- the frying pan was there ready for it to be 22 cooked. We listened for his horse. At that time that 23 Hagwilget Bridge had wooden planks on it, eh, and he 24 used to have his horse. He had a horse that he used 25 to go out with and we'd hear the hoofs come across the 26 bridge and right away the tea and everything got going 27 on the stove. No. He always brought home something. 28 Q So he -- and then what you do is -- he would leave the 29 rest of the meat out? 30 A He would hang that up in the trees and then he would 31 select different people from the village to go out 32 with him to pick up the meat very early the next 33 morning. Sometimes Wilfred and I went with him. 34 Q Now, did you ever go up to the Blue Lake area yourself 35 when you were young? 36 A Oh, yes. We used to go up there all the time. Like, 37 in the fall we used to go. 38 Q Who did you go with? 3 9 A My grandmother. 40 Q Did anyone else go with you? 41 A Certain people from the village used to go up there 42 with us. I especially remember Charlie's parents 43 coming with us, Phillip Austin, Rosalie Austin and 44 Charlie's sister, Mary, and Amelia Dominique. 45 THE COURT: Sorry? 46 THE WITNESS: Amelia Dominique. That's who I especially 47 remember most of the time going up there with us. 4088 D. Wilson-Kenni (for plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 MR. GRANT 2 Q 3 4 A 5 Q 6 7 8 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 13 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 MR. GRANT 21 THE REGIS1 22 23 THE COURT 24 THE WITNE 25 THE COURT 26 MR. GRANT 27 Q 28 29 30 A 31 32 33 Q 34 A 35 Q 36 37 38 39 40 A 41 Q 42 43 44 A 45 Q 46 A 47 And Charlie Austin's mother was from the House of Hagwilnegh? Yes. Now, I'd like to refer you to the document book, Tab Number 4 -- sorry -- Tab Number 5. Now, can you tell the Court who that is and what's going on there, if you recognize the picture? Well, that's up in the mountain. At Blue Lake? At Blue Lake. And somebody there told a story about spilling all her huckleberries when actually she ate it and got some on her dress. And who is the little girl? Me. Maybe you should just smile like you did there. That's my grandmother on the right there. That's Martha Wilson on the right? Yes. : I'd like that marked as the next exhibit. PRAR: 316, Tab 5. (EXHIBIT 316: Tab 5, photograph) : Approximately when would that be taken? 3S: I was about four or five years old at the time. : Yes. All right. Did your grandmother teach you about preserving any -- any of the -- or did she teach you anything about -- about preservation of the meat that your uncle got? Yes. We did a lot of smoking, canning and even salting the meat or fish. We did the same thing with the fish too. And you did this with meat as well? Yes. Now, there's been a lot of evidence given in the Court already, I think by Mr. Joseph, about the Hagwilget Canyon and that there was a fishery in that canyon. Do you remember, when you were growing up, the fishery at the Hagwilget Canyon? Yes. And were you involved at all in the -- or I'm sorry. Were you or your family, your grandmother or your uncles, involved in fishing in the Hagwilget Canyon? Yes. Who of your relatives were involved in that most? Well, my Uncle Willy and also my Uncle Mathew and Uncle Joe, but I especially remember my Uncle Willy 4089 D. Wilson-Kenni (for plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 THE COURT MR. GRANT THE MR. THE MR. COURT GRANT Q A Q A Q A Q A A THE COURT MR. GRANT COURT GRANT Q A Q A Q A because we were always tagging around with him, eh. I'm not sure that I understand what you mean, Mr. Grant, by a fishery in the Hagwilget Canyon. Fishery's a word that's come to be used both as a noun and as a verb. What sense are you using it? What sense does the witness -- I was intending to use it as a noun, but I'll clarify my question. Thank you. My mistake. What did your Uncle Willy do at the Hagwilget Canyon? Well, he used to fish down there using either the gaff or the dip-net. Okay. Was -- was there a specific -- or were there specific places he fished? Well, there's two places that I remember on the -- let's see -- east side. That would be the side that Hagwilget Village is on? Yeah. There's a dip-net site there in one spot and about 20, 25 feet from there, there's a gaffing site. Yes? And the men that used to go down there fishing used to take turns using the site. And there's another spot that he used to use, and that was directly across the bridge on the west side, and that was right under the bridge as you look down from the bridge. And do you know who was the owner of the site that he used on the west side of the bridge? The west side, I think that that was Spookw's site. The west side would be the other side from the village? Yeah. This is the side farthest from the village across the canyon. At the canyon the river goes generally north/south right at that spot. Yes. I'd 1 at pa page this Yes. Is th Yes. And s Broma Yes ike to ask you to refer back to the genealogy and ge 21 for a moment -- I'm sorry -- page 23. On 23 there is a name on the top -- the top line -- is of Exhibit 315 -- of Sophie Isaac? at the same person as Sophie Ogen? It's Sophie Ogen. he has been in the past the chief counsellor of n Lake Band? 4090 D. Wilson-Kenni (for plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 5 A 6 Q 7 8 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 15 Q 16 17 A 18 Q 19 20 A 21 THE COURT 22 MR. GRANT 23 THE COURT 24 MR. GRANT 25 26 27 28 29 30 THE COURT 31 MR. GRANT 32 THE COURT 33 34 35 THE WITNE 36 THE COURT 37 38 MR. GRANT 39 THE COURT 40 THE REGIS 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Now, is Sophie Ogen a member of Spookw's house? Yes. Can you explain to the Court -- and is she a Wet'suwet'en or a Gitksan person? Gitksan. Okay. Can you explain to the Court how she is a member of Spookw's house? What is her relationship to your other relatives? Well, it's through her mother. Okay. You can see on here her mother was Julie. Julie Tom? Yes. And she was Johnson Alexander's sister and Johnson Alexander was Spookw. Okay. Julie Tom's on page 21. And her -- Julie Tom's mother was Christine Tom? Yes. Okay. So she had the same mother as Johnson Alexander; is that right? Yes. I'm sorry. Julie Tom's grandmother was who? Julie Tom's mother was Christine Tom. Yes. My lord, if you refer to page 21, it may be a bit misleading. It was only because there's a lack of room it appears at the bottom you have Christine Tom and Alexander Gitludahl as one husband and then on the other side there's an equal sign on the other side, Burns Lake Tom Michell. On page 23? On page 21. It's that top three names there. Does that mean that Christine Tom was married to Alexander Gitludahl and also married to Burns Lake Tom Michell? S: Yes. I see. All right. Is this a convenient time to break, Mr. Grant? Do you want to -- Yes. This is as convenient as any, my lord. All right. Thank you. RAR: Order in court. (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED) 4091 D. Wilson-Kenni (for plaintiffs) In chief by Mr. Grant 9 10 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 11 a true and accurate transcript of the 12 proceedings transcribed to the best 13 of my skill and ability. 14 15 16 17 Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter 18 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 4092 Proceedings 1 (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED AFTER A BRIEF RECESS) 2 3 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Ready to proceed, My Lord? 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 MR. MACKENZIE: My Lord, I told Mr. Grant before the break that I 6 would make a brief submission at this time, with Your 7 Lordship's leave. And this is a submission, a brief 8 submission relating to the documents which appear in 9 Mr. Grant's document book, specifically those 10 appearing at Tab 7 of his document book. And the 11 first two documents relate to the B.C. special, 12 February 29, 1984 and November 16, 1981. I am just 13 referring to those two documents actually. They were 14 disclosed on a list of documents dated February 18, 15 which we received on February 24, last week. I think 16 that was Wednesday -- Wednesday, Thursday. 17 My Lord, the point I would like to make now is that 18 I am -- I would like to give my friend an opportunity 19 to produce further documents relating to the subject 20 which may be in the band council offices, and that I 21 rise now because I don't want to delay the 22 cross-examination. I will be making that request 23 during the cross-examination, and Your Lordship will 24 recall that this subject was raised during Dan 25 Michell's cross-examination by Mr. Goldie, and that as 26 a result of Mr. Goldie's request for production of 27 similar documents, Mr. Grant did provide some last 28 week. And Mr. Goldie, as Your Lordship will recall, 29 still has an outstanding request for other documents 30 in the Moricetown band files. And my request now is 31 for the similar documents in the files of the 32 Hagwilget band, and perhaps that could be done before 33 I commence my cross-examination, perhaps, early next 34 week. 35 THE COURT: You are suggesting that these documents are not all 36 the documents? 37 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, My Lord. 38 THE COURT: One would think that there may be a document similar 39 to the first one for any given year, I suppose. 40 MR. MACKENZIE: Yes, My Lord. Who knows, My Lord, but during — 41 your Lordship will recall that during Dan Michell's 42 cross-examination there were certain statements of 43 account related to receipt or allocation of the B.C. 44 special funds to capital accounts and already received 45 by the band council. Dan Michell's evidence, as Your 46 Lordship will recall in Volume 61, page 3760 was that 47 he received these documents every year but he 4093 D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiff) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. COURT GRANT COURT GRANT Q COURT GRANT A Q A Q A Q A couldn't really recall whether he had them in his possession. Mr. Grant? Yes, My Lord. Well, I think Mr. Goldie even read part of the letter in that I responded to him on. I note my friend's request. In the conduct of this action we are not acting in a capacity for the Hagwilget band council, and I will make inquiries, and if there is any further documents or if there is any objection to production of them, then I will endeavour to do so. And I appreciate my friend's comment because I can now speak with the witness as well, and I will do so. So I will just note his comment and deal with it. Thank you. Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, I was referring you to the genealogy, I believe, Exhibit 315. Just go back to the time of the break to page 21. 21? Yes. Just a moment, My Lord. I may not -- yes, page 21. Just before proceeding further, I note there on page 22 that there is Emily Isaac and Fred Augusta and then there is a line with a number of lines underneath it. Does this signify that they have children? Yes. Okay. But didn't have names for them. There was quite a number of -- But you did determine the number of children? I think there is about ten. Okay. I'm sorry, My Lord, I won't have to refer to the genealogy for the next series. Can you tell the court what's the name that Sophie Ogen holds? Nakwa' TRANSLATOR: GRANT: 672. Q on. 672. And is that a Gitksan or a Wet'suwet'en name? A That's a Gitksan name. Q And do you know what that name means? A It means long arm. Q Do you know who held that name before Sophie? A Sophie's mother, Julie. Q Okay. A And Julie's mother before her. 4094 D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiff) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 Q So before -- okay. There was Sophie's mother, Julie, 2 and then Julie's mother, that would have been 3 Christine? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. 6 THE COURT: I heard right, it is long arm? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 THE COURT: Yes. Thank you. 9 MR. GRANT: 10 Q And is that a name -- what house is that name from? 11 A Spookw. 12 Q Now, before the break you described that you were 13 taught about preserving meat and fish. You described 14 that you were taught to, I think, to smoke and to salt 15 it or to smoke and to can it? 16 A Yes, smoke, can, sometimes salt it. 17 Q What was the -- what did you do the first time you 18 preserved meat that your uncle had killed? What did 19 you do with it? 20 A Well, one of the things was smoking the meat. 21 Q Uh-huh. 22 A And the first time that I was allowed to do it on my 23 own to cut it up and prepare it for smoking and finish 24 it -- 25 Q Yes. 26 A -- I had to give a piece of that to Mrs. Austin. 27 Q And is that again Charlie Austin's mother? 28 A Yes. 29 Q And this is the same as what your brother did with the 30 first grouse that he caught? 31 A That's right. It's something that is always done. 32 The first kill or the first preparation -- you know, 33 something that the person has done. It's usually 34 shared with the father's parents. 35 Q Okay. 36 A And that's done both in Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en. 37 Q And — 38 A Like if a young boy goes fishing, you know, the first 39 one goes to his father's parents. It's the same 40 thing. 41 Q And is that still done today? 42 A Yes. 43 Q Now, in this case Mrs. McKenzie, the first witness, 44 gave evidence about having had an ear piercing 45 ceremony. And you know Mrs. McKenzie? 46 A Yes. 47 Q Gylogyet? 4095 D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiff) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 A Yes. 2 Q Did you go through that, an ear piercing ceremony? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And how old were you? 5 A I was 7. Both my cousin and I went through that, Mary 6 Wilson. She and I went through that at the same time. 7 Q Okay. And I refer you to page three of the genealogy. 8 Mary Wilson is the -- was the daughter of Josephine 9 Wilson; is that right? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And she married Leonard Duncan and they had children? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Now, did both you and Mary Wilson go through it at the 14 same time, the ear piercing ceremony? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And who pierced your ears? 17 A Pardon me? 18 Q Who did the actual piercing of your ears? 19 A Margaret Dominic pierced mine. 20 Q And which house is she from? 21 A She's from the house of Hagwilnegh. 22 Q And that's the same house as Charlie Austin? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And who pierced Mary Wilson's ears? 25 A Claire George. 26 Q Of which house? 27 A House of Goohlaht. 2 8 Q And do you know why Claire George was the one to 29 pierced Mary Wilson's ears? 30 A Because she was from her father's clan. 31 Q Okay. Now, you recall this feast when you were 7 32 years old? 33 A Uh-huh. 34 Q You remember it? 35 A Yes. 36 Q And were names announced for you at that feast? 37 A Yes. 3 8 Q And who announced them? 3 9 A My grandmother. 40 Q And did you have to do anything yourself at the feast? 41 A We had to dance. Two ladies were hired to compose a 42 song for us, a song for me and a song for Mary, and 43 Mrs. Austin composed a song for me. That's Charlie's 44 mother. 45 Q Okay. 46 A And Rosy Williams composed a song for Mary. 47 Q Now, we have referred to Mrs. Austin, Charlie's 4096 D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiff) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. THE THE MR. THE MR. THE MR. mother. Did she hold a chief's name or a name in the house of Hagwilnegh? A Her name was T'sek'ot. GRANT: Do you have a number for that? TRANSLATOR: 670. REGISTRAR: 670. GRANT: 67 0. Q And what clan was Rosy Williams from? A She was from Laksilyu. Q And was she Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en? A Wet'suwet'en. Q Okay. Mary is Gitksan as well, Mary Wilson? A Mary, my cousin, yes. Q And she's in the house of Spookw? A Yes. COURT: Who was it that was mentioned a moment ago as being Wet'suwet'en? GRANT COURT GRANT Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Rosy Williams -- Thank you. -- was in the Laksilyu clan and was Wet'suwet'en. Now, can you tell the Court what clan you are in? What clan I am in? Yes. The Lah gii boo. Okay. In Wet'suwet'en that's Gitdumden. So among the Wet'suwet'en you would be referred to as in the Gitdumden clan? Yes. And among the Gitksan and Lah gii boo clan, but they are the same clan? Yes. And that's what's translated in English as the wolf clan? Yes. Does the -- what clan is Woos in among the Wet'suwet'en? Woos is Gitdumden. The same clan as you? Yes. Now, do you have a -- does any of the houses of the Gitdumden have a bear crest? Yes. The wolf is also -- like the Gitdumden and the Lah gii boo, the wolf clan, but they also use a bear too in their crests. But I think Woos, he uses the grizzly bear. Okay. So there is a -- like a black bear crest for 4097 D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiff) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 the whole clan? 2 A Yes. 3 Q But Woos uses the grizzly bears -- 4 A Yes. 5 Q Do you wear on any of your jewelry, do you wear a bear 6 crest? 7 A Yes. 8 Q On what do you wear it on? 9 A I -- the only thing right now is my ring, but my other 10 jewelry, like bracelet and rings and that, it's the 11 wolf. 12 Q Okay. At the time of your ear piercing were you given 13 any jewelry to wear? 14 A Yes, my great grandmother's earings were put in my 15 ears, and Margaret Dominic had to do that. She had to 16 put those in my ears. The first earings that were put 17 on. And that's these earings here. 18 Q Indicating the earings that you are wearing? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Is there anything on those earings, any -- 21 A This is the same shape of the snake. 22 Q Okay. And you said your great grandmother. So that 23 would be -- 24 A Mary. 25 Q Mary Yaga'lahl? 26 A Yes. 27 Q Martha's mother? 28 A Yes. 29 Q Okay. 30 A You see, that's one thing you have to be careful of 31 too. If you have your jewelry made for you, you have 32 to make sure of your own crest, because if you have 33 somebody else's crest, then that person can ask for it 34 and you have to give it. 35 Q And that still applies today? 36 A Oh, yes. 37 Q Can you tell the Court the significance or the reason 38 why you went through an ear piercing ceremony? What 39 was the importance of that to you and to your house? 40 A Well, I was given a child's name, and at that time 41 that would mean that I would be able to sit in the 42 feast. Children really weren't allowed in the feast 43 hall. And when I went into the feast hall with my 44 grandmother, I had to sit on the floor. And that 45 thing about children being seen and not heard was 46 really applied at that time. You had to sit there and 47 supposed to be listening. When we received our 4098 D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiff) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 child's name, then we are able to go in there and sit, 2 you know, beside our mother. 3 Q Now, is -- so when you were young you went to feasts 4 after you were involved in the ear piercing ceremony? 5 A Uh-huh. 6 Q And do you remember any feast put on by the house of 7 Spookw when you were young? That is a feast hosted by 8 your grandmother's family. 9 A Yes, there is a lot of feast. 10 Q Where would those feasts take place? 11 A Either -- like with Johnson, you would have them up in 12 Kispiox. 13 Q That's Johnson Alexander? 14 A Yes. Or in Gitanmaax. 15 Q Yes. 16 A Or Hagwilget. 17 Q So Spookw held feasts in all three of those 18 communties? 19 A Yes. 20 Q I would like to move into another area now and ask you 21 about what happened when you reached -- at the time 22 that you reached puberty. Now, was anything done or 23 was there any special treatment with you at the time 24 that you reached puberty? 25 A Well, I was sort of isolated for a year when that 26 first happened. When you are talking about reaching 27 the age of puberty, that's when the young girl first 28 starts having her menstrual periods and that. 2 9 Q Uh-huh. 30 A When that happened, right away I was isolated. 31 Q How? 32 A By putting, you know -- let's see. In those days our 33 houses are just one room like, and with our house it 34 had a kitchen attached to it, but all of us, we slept 35 in this one room. It was our bedroom, living room, 36 dining room, whatever you want to call it. Living 37 room, you actually lived in it. As a result of that, 38 the beds would be like along the wall, and my bed was 39 in the corner, and over top of it were hooks on the 40 walls that were used for putting rope on, so that the 41 babies cradle would be hung on there or a hammock like 42 made. When this happened to me, well then my 43 grandmother sort of partitioned off that space and 44 put -- hung blankets there so that my bed would be 45 isolated from the others. She sent me to bed. I 4 6 don't know why, but she sent me to bed. And I was 47 very frightened. She right away went amongst certain 4099 D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiff) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 ladies in the village, and next thing I knew there is 2 a bunch of ladies trooped into my little makeshift 3 bedroom there. They were bringing me different 4 things, like utensils that I could use to cook in, my 5 own plate, cup, bowl and spoon, fork, knife, like 6 that, and food, because I wasn't to use any of the 7 utensils or cook in the utensils that the rest of the 8 family would use. And the food that they gave me was 9 food that I would be able to eat because it meant that 10 I had to be restricted from the fresh wild meats and 11 fish. 12 It was quite a year to put in, because not only was 13 I restricted in the food, we were restricted in the 14 way that you behaved in public as well, because when I 15 went outside of the house, I had to wear a kerchief on 16 my head. And I wore that all year. And that kerchief 17 was put on in such a way, you know, you put it on your 18 head and it's -- and you tuck it in -- sort of tuck it 19 in here like this, so that it made sort of like a 20 visor here, you know, so that when you looked up you 21 didn't see too far up. 22 And our house was like -- you know, you could say 23 it's right at the base of the mountain there. Our 24 mountain, Stek'od'in, looms higher there, and I was 25 told I wasn't to look at the mountain. And also any 26 male person, I wasn't to look into their face. So 27 pretty well had to keep your head down for the year. 28 Q This was for one year? 29 A One year. There is a period of time that you had to 30 abstain from certain foods and certain, you know, 31 activities. 32 Another thing that was very important and that I had 33 to be very careful with, because my uncle was a 34 hunter, I had to be very careful that I didn't touch 35 any of the meats or the fish that he brought home. I 36 couldn't help him like I used to when he was preparing 37 his guns and that and preparing to go hunting. Like 38 they go through sort of a type of preparation before 39 they go out hunting, and I wasn't to touch those. 40 Actually I had to stay quite a ways -- you know, stay 41 out of his way a lot during that year because of his 42 hunting and fishing activities, because with me 43 touching anything like that or eating any of that, 44 that would be sure to mean bad luck for him. He 45 wouldn't be able to bring home anything. 46 I believed that then and I still believe that now. 47 Q What about when you went to school? What about this 4100 D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiff) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 kerchief when you went to school? Did you have to 2 wear it? 3 A Yes, I had to. I had to keep it on. Everywhere I 4 went, I had to have my kerchief on. 5 Q And did you? 6 A Yes, I did. It wasn't very easy, but I did. 7 Q Uh-huh. 8 A Like for instance we had a lot of friends used to come 9 and visit us, eh, and one of them was a young guy that 10 was about the same age as myself. I was about eleven 11 and-a-half at the time when it took place, and we -- 12 they used to live like across the road from us, the 13 Taits. It was Herby Tait who used to come over, and I 14 would be sitting in the -- on the steps, you know, in 15 the evening, and just sit there and not being able to 16 look around. He would be coming along because he 17 would come over to visit us and especially Wilfred. 18 He was a good friend of Wilfred, my brother. And he 19 would ask me, "How come you always wearing that 2 0 kerchief? How come you can't -- you know, you don't 21 look at me when I talk to you." And I said, "Well, go 22 home and ask your mom." It's not easy for me to tell 23 him why this was happening. Even talking about it now 24 it doesn't feel comfortable. 25 Q And what happened at the end of a year? 26 A At the end of the year a feast is put on, and my 27 grandmother and my mother and they all take part in 28 it. And at that time what they do is during this year 29 they collect things getting ready for the feast, and 30 they buy gifts for these ladies that have given me 31 food and utensils, et cetera. Any gifts that were 32 given to me during that year, I had to keep track of 33 it myself, you know, who gave me this and who gave me 34 that, and it was a lesson that I had to learn. I 35 think she was teaching me how to be accountable, I 36 think, and how to conduct myself, you know. Sometimes 37 you want to do something and you have to learn that 38 control not to do it. That type of thing came across 39 to me after the year, of course. 40 Q Was there a name for this feast? 41 A Oh, that's Taayeeh. 42 THE TRANSLATOR: 668. 43 MR. GRANT: 668. 44 Q And where did that feast take place? 45 A At Hagwilget. 46 Q Now, when you were growing up, this one year period 47 that happened to you, did it happen -- was it common 4101 D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiff) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 among your friends? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Did it happen to your friends as well? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And did you have girlfriends who were Gitksan and 6 Wet'suwet'en? 7 A Uh-huh. 8 Q And did it happen to both Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en 9 girls? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Did you go out on the -- just before the break we 12 showed a picture of when you were a young girl and you 13 were out on Blue Lakes. Did you go out there with 14 your parents or your grandmother most years to Blue 15 Lake every year? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Can you just tell the Court, to give him some idea how 18 long it would take you to get from your home in 19 Hagwilget to Blue Lake in those days? 20 A Well, it was -- the first day we would be busy 21 preparing, packing and everything, and usually it 22 would take us the first day to get to the base of the 23 mountain where we would leave the wagon and then use 24 the horses. Put the pack saddles on the horses and 25 put the, whatever, food stuff we were taking along 26 with us along there, and we also had to take our 27 containers for berries. We used to go up berry 2 8 picking up there. And then the next day we would 29 leave very early in the morning and get up on the 30 mountain in the evening, just before it got dark. The 31 men used to have to work very fast in setting up the 32 camp, setting up the tents. And then we had to gather 33 spruce boughs to make our beds. And about two days, a 34 day and-a-half actual travelling eh. 35 Q Now, the Blue Lake, is it behind Stek'od'in? 36 A Yes. 37 Q And Stek'od'in is the very large mountain that is very 38 close or you can see right at Hagwilget? 39 A Yes. 40 Q Now, did you go up to Blue Lakes the year that you 41 were isolated, this year that you reached puberty? 42 A I wasn't allowed to go up to the mountain during that 43 year. 44 Q Did you go anywhere -- did you go down to the fishing 45 sites with your uncle? 4 6 A No. 47 Q Or out to pack meat for him? 4102 D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiff) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 A No, I wasn't allowed to do that. But after the year I 2 went up there. That was another thing. 3 Q This was the first time you went up after that? 4 A Yes, first time after. And that was after -- also it 5 was after that feast was put on. And I don't know why 6 my grandmother didn't come with me at that time, but 7 she wasn't with us, and I was sent up with my 8 grandparents, Charlie's parents. 9 Q Yes. 10 A And there was Mr. and Mrs. Austin and there was 11 Marianne. 12 Q Marianne? 13 A Marianne Alec, Charlie's sister. 14 Q Yes. 15 A And there was Amelia Dominic again, and I can't 16 remember who else, but those especially stand out in 17 my mind. And before starting up the mountain I was 18 told to put the black, you know, from the camp fire, 19 ashes, the black on here. 20 Q You are indicating under your eyes, on your cheeks and 21 on your eyes? 22 A On my eyes. 23 Q Yes. 24 A And I had to go up the mountain like that. And there 25 is one thing when we were going up the mountain to 2 6 the -- at that time I remember the clouds were 27 starting to gather in the distance, and that's one 28 thing we always don't like to see is the clouds when 29 we are going up the mountain, because that meant rain, 30 and we would be out in tents eh. And one of the 31 things that I believe is that during the year that you 32 are in this stage that you are going through puberty 33 you have to be careful in what you say. Anything that 34 you say is very likely to become true. Anything you 35 wish for will come true. So you had to be careful 36 what you wished for. 37 So the first time going up the mountain there I 38 remember the old people talking about hoping that it 39 won't rain because they were looking at the clouds. 4 0 And after we got up to the mountain there and we were 41 making the camp, we were busy piling up the boughs eh, 42 and I was being silly and sort of testing too. I 43 remember saying, you know, to Marianne -- she used to 44 be very stern when -- and she knew, you know, the 45 period of time that I was going through -- had just 4 6 gone through. And I was doing a chant about the rain, 47 you know, let it rain, let it rain, and Newal tant' 4103 D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiff) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 Newal tant', like that eh, and sort of singing around 2 there like that sort of thing. 3 Q What you just said was letting it rain? 4 A Let it rain, yes. Sort of made my grandmother, Mrs. 5 Austin, very angry with me. And she said to me, she 6 said, "You better reverse that wish that you made 7 because when it rains, you are going to sleep outside. 8 You are not going to sleep under the tent. You are 9 going to sleep outside." And the look in her eye 10 there, I figured I better get out there and -- so then 11 I had to say a phrase, and I never forgot, because she 12 taught me a lesson. And I had to go and reverse my 13 wish. Yeet K'aneek'etot l'eet. You know, up there in 14 the mountain, black face, and I never forgot that. In 15 other words, I was saying clouds go away, you know, 16 forget about the rain. 17 But that's another thing, you are not to talk 18 foolish. That was a lesson. Otherwise -- I think 19 that was the moral of that, be careful in what you say 20 and don't make wishes unwisely. 21 Q You have a daughter, Debbie? 22 A Uh-huh. 23 Q Debra Ann actually? 24 A Yes. 25 Q She's referred to on page 7. Did you have Debra go 26 through anything like this? 27 A Yes. She wasn't allowed to eat any wild meat or fresh 28 fish for the year. 29 Q And how old is Debbie, your daughter now? 30 A Debbie, she's 27. 31 Q Okay. Now, what about other children or other young 32 women I should say your daughter's age? Do you know 33 of other parents your age who have had their daughters 34 go through this among the Gitksan and the 35 Wet'suwet'en? 36 A Gee, I can't say. I don't know. 37 Q Okay. 38 A I think that anyone who has been brought up by their 39 grandparents, they -- it's drilled into us, and it's 40 not very easy to go against it. I think that's the 41 main reason why things like that, you know, is carried 42 on. 43 Q Why did you do it with Debbie or have her go through 44 this? 45 A Because I did it, and it's the same lessons to learn. 46 Q Now, I believe you have already given evidence, and I 47 am moving into another area now, and this is an area 4104 D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiff) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 about your house, that is the house of Spookw, and the 2 relationship of the house of Spookw in some more 3 detail to the Wet'suwet'en. But firstly, just so that 4 we can get some idea, is Spookw's territory -- where 5 is it in relation to Hagwilget? 6 A Well, Hagwilget is part of it. 7 Q Hagwilget is in Spookw's territory? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Okay. Now, you have indicated that you go to both 10 Wet'suwet'en and Gitksan feasts? 11 A Yes. 12 Q When you go to a Wet'suwet'en feast are you 13 considered -- are you referred to as a Wet'suwet'en or 14 as a Gitksan? 15 A Gitksan. 16 Q Now, do you know if a pole has been erected by the 17 house of Spookw at any time in let us say recent 18 history? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Where was that pole erected? 21 A I think the Johnson's had one down at Totem Park. 22 Q And can you tell the Court where Totem Park is? 23 A Gitanmaax. 24 Q And is that -- from what you were taught by your 25 grandmother, where is the correct place for Spookw to 26 raise a pole? 27 A Gitanmaax. 28 Q Now, I would like to ask you about the relationship 29 between the Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en. Now, first 30 of all I think you referred to two of your uncles. 31 Just a moment. Joe Wilson, was he married to a 32 Gitksan? 33 A Yes. 34 Q Okay. And were any of your other uncles married to 35 Gitksan women? 36 A Yes. 37 Q Who? 38 A My Uncle Willie and Matthew and also my Uncle Jimmy 39 Joseph. 4 0 Q Now, when you say Jimmy Joseph, what house was Jimmy 41 Joseph from? 42 A Spookw. 43 Q Okay. Now, your grandmother was married, I believe 44 you have already said, to Paul Baptist? 45 A Yes. 46 Q And was he a Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en? 47 A Wet'suwet'en. 4105 D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiff) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 Q 2 3 A 4 Q 5 6 7 8 A 9 Q 10 11 A 12 13 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 Q 25 A 26 Q 27 THE COURT 28 MR. GRANT 29 30 THE COURT 31 MR. GRANT 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 Q 37 A 38 Q 39 A 40 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 A 45 Q 46 A 47 And you -- Margaret, your mother, is married to Charlie Austin, and is he a Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en? Wet'suwet'en. Okay. Do you know of other marriages between -- in Hagwilget between Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en people, and if you could just give a few examples, even if they are not in your own house. Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en. Where one spouse is a Gitksan and the other is a Wet'suwet'en. First one I can think of is Gisdaywa, and Gisdaywa is Alfred Joseph. He is married to my cousin, Helen, and she's from the house of Wiiseeks. She's a Gitksan. And he of course is Wet'suwet'en? Yes. So their children are? Gitksan. Gitksan? Uh-huh. Okay. Any others? Do you know Elsie Sebastian? Oh, yes. Is she Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en? She's Gitksan. Do you know what house she is from? I'm not too sure. It might be Luutk'atsiiwes. Luutk'atsiiwes. : Do you have a spelling for that? : It's actually in the pleadings, My Lord. Paragraph 19 of the Statement of Claim I am referring to. : Thank you. And who did she marry? She was married to Joe Sebastian. Who is now deceased? Yes. And is he Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en? Wet'suwet'en. Do you know what house or clan he was from? Let's see. He was -- I think he's Gitumskanees. He must be. He was Laksilyu anyway. He was Laksilyu. You referred to Gitumskanees? Yes. He's related to Gitumskanees? Yes. And Gitumskanees -- Gitumskanees. William Simms is who I am thinking of. He is related to Joe Sebastian. 4106 D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plaintiff) In chief by Mr. Grant 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q And I believe you have already referred to Abel Joseph who married or whose sister -- Abel Joseph's sister married Louie Tommy? A That's right. Q And she was a Gitksan and he was a Wet'suwet'en? A Right. THE COURT: Mr. Grant, is this convenient or — MR. GRANT: Yes, certainly, My Lord. THE COURT: I take it counsel can sit all day tomorrow? MR. GRANT: Yes, I anticipated that. THE COURT: Okay. MR. GRANT: I may ask the Court, depending on where we are towards the end of next week, given that it is a four week sitting, that we stop early next week. We'll see where we are at. THE COURT: I will be glad to entertain that application, if we have to. THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. We will adjourn 'til 10 a.m. (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO MARCH 4, 1988 AT 10:00 A.M.) I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY. LORI OXLEY OFFICIAL REPORTER UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.
Trial proceedings
British Columbia
KEB529.5.L3 B757
English
Uukw, Delgam, 1937-
Indigenous peoples--Canada
Oral history
Wet'suwet'en First Nation
Vancouver : University of British Columbia Library
Vancouver : United Reporting Service Ltd.
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Original Format: University of British Columbia. Library. Law Library.
[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-03-03]
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