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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts
British Columbia. Supreme Court
In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, between: Delgamuukw, also known as Albert Tait, suing on his own behalf and on behalf of all the members of the House of Delgamuukw, and others, plaintiffs, and Her Majesty the Queen in right of the Province of British Columbia and the Attorney General of Canada, defendants: proceedings at trial.
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281 1 Smithers, B. C. 2 May 15, 1987. 3 THE REGISTRAR: In the Supreme Court of British Columbia this 4 15th today day of May, 1987. Delgamuukw and others 5 and Her Majesty the Queen. 6 THE COURT: Mr. Grant. 7 MR. GRANT: Yes, my lord. 8 THE REGISTRAR: Witness, I remind you, you are under oath. 9 A Yes. 10 MR. GRANT: 11 Q Before proceeding into today's evidence, there were a 12 couple of points I wanted to raise from yesterday with 13 the witness. 14 You indicated that three chiefs had put on a shame 15 feast or feast to wipe away the shame and one was Mrs. 16 Forsythe. I just want to clarify, had she stolen 17 something or what was the circumstance around that? 18 A I would like to clarify that now that, she was accused 19 of taking an article from the store. 20 Q But did she in fact? 21 THE COURT: Well, does the witness say that? Surely I don't try 22 that issue, do I? 2 3 MR. GRANT: No. 24 THE COURT: What the witness said was that it came out of theft. 25 I took that to mean she was charged with theft and 26 went no further than that, as far as I know. 27 MR. GRANT: I am only, of course, I am only clarifying it as to 28 the circumstances leading up to the feast. 29 Q Now, the other point I would like to raise with you, 30 and ask you to explain, is with respect to one of the 31 seating charts. And this is the seating chart at tab 32 four. Now, in this seating chart of tab four of 33 Exhibit 2, there is, at the end, at the bottom end of 34 the table the second from the right, is 'Niis gimi nuu 35 (Alvin Weget) the side of the table whose name at the 36 table is Geel, so Geel's table, there is a name Denii 37 and under that brackets Alvin Weget. Are those names 38 presently held by the same person? 39 A The names are held by the same person, Denii, and 4 0 Denii, he just got the name about a month ago. 41 Q Could you explain to clarify for the court, where 42 'Niis gimi nuu sits now? 43 A Today he sits at the table on the second from the left 44 here, under Anda ap, and he sits on the end. 45 Q Second from the right? 46 A Yes, second from the right. 47 Q Was there any event at which there was clarification 282 1 as to where Alvin Weget, 'Niis gimi nuu would sit? 2 A The feast was put on for a headstone for the 'Niis 3 gimi nuu, the late James Wood, and the feasting was 4 held at Kispiox for a headstone. And this is when the 5 name was taken by Alvin Weget, 'Niis gimi nuu, and 6 there they pointed out that he would sit at this 7 table. And he did relate himself where he would be 8 seated now. And that his seat that he was sitting in 9 was on Geel's table, would be taken out. So, this was 10 clarified by the chiefs and it was passed, so 'Niis 11 gimi nuu, the 'Niis gimi nuu is seated at the end of 12 that table. 13 Q At the present time there is no person sitting, there 14 is no seat where Denii used to sit? 15 A No, we took the chair out and the person next to him 16 moved up. 17 Q So that space was taken up? 18 A Yes, it was closed. 19 Q Now, yesterday -- my lord, I would like to have the 20 witness go through the process of a feast and how a 21 feast is initiated today. 22 Mrs. McKenzie, yesterday you described the seating 23 at the different feasts, feasts of different clans and 24 in Kispiox and Gitanmax, today I would like you to 25 explain to the court how when a chief wishes to hold a 26 feast, for example, for a headstone or for a burial, 27 either one of those two types of feast, could you 28 explain to the court what the chief does and how the 29 decision is made and how that process is initiated, 30 that is, the process of having the feast? 31 A Well, the process starts of the meeting of the members 32 of a House. And they decide then who would be the 33 successor of a chief, I will put this as the chief, 34 that's a burial feast. So, when that person is 35 selected, they send out two or three or four people 36 are sent out from that house, to give the invitation 37 and, in Gitksan language, we say Tiits. 38 MR. GRANT: I may say, my lord, we are working on a process to 39 expedite the spellings but if you can bear with us for 4 0 a few more days. 41 THE COURT: Oh, yes. 42 MR. GRANT: 43 Q In any event, just before you proceed, I just want -- 44 you said there was a meeting of the members of the 45 house, would all the members of the house decide or 46 would it just be certain people that would meet from 47 the house to decide on who the successor is? 1 A 2 3 4 5 Q 6 A 7 8 9 10 11 12 Q 13 A 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q 21 A 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 Q 29 30 31 A 32 33 Q 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 39 40 A 41 42 43 44 45 Q 46 47 A 283 The chiefs and the sub-chiefs of a house, they have the authority to set this meeting up and to decide, they have a person already to succeed the chief. So this is what the meeting is for. Go ahead. Then they send out what we call Tiits to the different Villages, to all the head chiefs of the other villages. Like, if this -- I will put it as the Lax Gibuu, because I am Lax Gibuu and it's done in Kispiox. Now, the Tiits who come from Kispiox, they will go to Gitanmaaxs, Gitsegukla and Gitwangax. Go ahead. When the Tiits approach, like the first village would be Gitanmaaxs, they approach the house of Gyetm Galdoo first, because he is the head chief of the frog clan in Gitanmaaxs. There again, the Tiits take with them a song, it would either be a Limx oo'y, a song that is sung, this is when we have the down given to that chief. Is that the eagle down that you -- Yes, it's eagle down. Now, eagle down is used quite a while ago, but today we have no eagle down, so in response to that, that you accepted the invitation you give the Tiits money and we call it, even that we call it feathers, or down. And it's taken by the Tiits and this is recorded as they go from house, from chief to chief. Just to be more precise and to give an example of this, were you involved in this process with respect to the headstone feast for Ellen Johnson, An Hloo'o? Yes, I was one of Tiits that time. I went with Clara Weget because she was the lady that got the name. And what house is she in? She is in Luus House. So, she is part of your Wil 'naa t'ahl? Yes, she is part of my Wil 'naa t'ahl. Could you explain to the court one of the chiefs to whom you went and what you did and what Clara did in the invitation? Well, we did what I said, a song is sung and then we announced, I announced for Clara that this invitation, and date is set and the time that the moving of the headstone to the cemetery. And that we invite them there. And did you go to all of these communities that you have just described? Yes, we did. And we went to a lot of the chiefs, like 284 1 in each village, and we also told them to pass the 2 word along with their nephews and nieces to -- that 3 are invited as well. 4 Q Go ahead. 5 A The next day was the burial, the funeral was held the 6 next day after we went around to the villages, was the 7 next day, and it was the funeral. 8 Now, before the casket left the house, the casket 9 was draped in a button blanket. 10 Q Which funeral are you referring to specifically? 11 A Ellen Johnson. 12 Q Go ahead. 13 THE COURT: I am sorry a button blanket? 14 A Yes, a button blanket. 15 MR. GRANT: 16 Q What is the button blanket used for amongst the 17 Gitksan? 18 A It's worn only on very special occasions, like the 19 burial, funeral of a chief, the totem pole raising, or 20 a headstone raising. These are about the only time 21 that these button blankets are worn by their chief. 22 Any -- very special occasion that is very solemn. We 23 see that at the opening of this court case, our chiefs 24 gathered in front of the court house, they wore the 25 button blankets to show that there is a special thing 26 that they are taking seriously. And you will notice 27 too that after the ceremony, these head chiefs took 28 all their button blankets off before entering into the 29 court house, because there is never a time that we 30 take our regalias into a court house. 31 Q Go ahead. You were describing the funeral feast or 32 the funeral process for Ellen Johnson, just proceed. 33 A As I said, the casket was draped in a button blanket 34 and they had their crest on it. It shows just whose 35 house this An Hloo'o is from, from the house of Luus. 36 A song was sung before the casket was closed and from 37 there it went to the church. 38 Q And where was the casket when the blanket was draped 39 on, where was it moved from in the church? 40 A From the house to the church. 41 Q Whose button blanket was it? 42 A It belonged to An Hloo'o. In recent years, some of 43 the chiefs they take their blessing inside a church 44 today. So when that has happened, like Mrs. Weget 45 would go forth with her wilxsibagxws, that's her 46 father's family. They take the blanket off and drape 47 a it around here and then she is blessed there by the 1 2 THE COURT 3 4 5 MR. GRANT 6 Q 7 8 9 A 0 MR. GRANT 285 minister and by the head chiefs at the same time. : I am sorry, I missed something, if I was told, is Mrs. Weget, to whom the witness just referred, someone that's been mentioned a moment ago that I missed? This is -- you are referring Ellen Johnson funeral feast and Mrs. Weget is the name that Ellen Johnson formerly had? Yes. : I believe that was few moments ago. 11 THE COURT: I missed that. I am sorry. 12 THE TRANSLATOR: W-e-g-e-t. 13 MR. GRANT: Were you present and did you see this happen at Ellen Johnson's funeral? Yes, I was there. Could you describe what happened in the church when you say the chiefs and the minister gave their blessing, could you describe exactly what happens? The chiefs were called up to, at the front of the casket, while this button blanket is removed and then it's draped on Mrs. Weget, this is where the minister gives a prayer, the chiefs give Mrs. Weget their blessing as well. And that the power will be upon her. Do you recall some of the chiefs who went up at that time? Gitluudahlxw was one of them, Geel, that is Mrs. Weget, Gitluudahlxw. Those are the only two that I can recall at this moment. Gitluudahlxw, that name is presently held by Pete Muldoe? Yes. Was that who held that name at that time? No. But Gitluudahlxw's name was mentioned, 'Wii Seeks was called, because Pete still had the name of 'Wii Seeks. Can you give the spellings of those three chiefs names? 40 THE TRANSLATOR: G-i-t-1-u-u-d-a-h-l-x-w; 'w-i-i-s-e-e-k-s; 41 G-e-e-1. 42 THE COURT: Is 'wii seeks one word? 43 THE TRANSLATOR: interest yes. 4 4 THE COURT: Thank you. 4 5 MR. GRANT: 46 Q Go ahead, Mrs. McKenzie, you were describing the 47 process of the Ellen Johnson funeral? 14 Q 15 16 A 17 Q 18 19 20 A 21 22 23 24 25 26 Q 27 28 A 29 30 31 Q 32 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 37 38 Q 39 1 A 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 MR. GRANT 11 12 THE COURT 13 MR. GRANT 14 15 MR. GRANT 16 17 18 THE COURT 19 MR. GRANT 20 21 22 THE COURT 23 24 25 26 MR. GRANT 27 Q 28 29 30 31 32 33 A 34 35 36 37 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 42 A 43 Q 44 45 A 46 47 286 From there it went to the cemetery, and as the people gathered around the grave side, we asked 'Wii Eelast to speak to the people, to invite them for the big feasting that night. Although we have already notified the head chief but then it's proper that this invitation is sent out again at the grave side. So this is what way 'Wii Eelast, James Angus junior, because he is our 'Wii Eelast, so we asked him to do the honour for us. : The interpreter is indicating difficulty. She just asked for a moment. : Do you wanted to adjourn? : Yes. (Proceedings adjourned for short recess) : My lord, before proceeding, with leave of the court I would like, at this point, to alternate the person working with the court reporter, if that's all right. : Yes, certainly. : And Mr. Norman Moore is available, please, Mr. Moore, to translate and provide the words from Gitksan to English. : Thank you. NORMAN MOORE, Translator, Sworn: Mrs. McKenzie, we were discussing the ceremony I believe at the church with respect to the funeral of a Ellen Johnson. Could you just proceed from where we left off? You explained some of the chiefs who were there and you were continuing on. I am sorry, Mr. Goldie said, sotto voce, you were at the gravesite. Thank you. I was lost where I was. As I said, that we asked 'Wii Eelast to put the invitation for the feasting Wil 'naa t'ahl, for the feasting of that night for the Kispiox Community Centre. Who holds the name 'Wii Eelast today? James Angus junior. Was he the person at the time of Ellen Johnson's feast who held that name? Yes. Go ahead. What did he say or is there some specific form of the invitation to the people at the gravesite. To address our chiefs in any function, that's where the invitation is sent out by the chief of a House, we address our chiefs as Simge gyet, Sigidim nanak and 287 1 Kubuu wilsasxw, in any feasting or gathering of 2 Gitksan people, these are the first words that are 3 spoken, that are given. 4 Q Is there a translation for those words, what they 5 mean? Do you wish the interpreter? 6 A I believe the interpreter could do that for me. 7 MR. GRANT: Could you explain what those three words are 8 THE INTERPRETER: It's just like saying ladies and gentlemen 9 with the chiefs and -- Kubuu Wilsasxw is sort of like 10 the princess and princes of a royal family. 11 THE COURT: It's a salutation, is it? 12 A Yes. 13 MR. GRANT: 14 Q Go ahead. 15 THE COURT: Thank you. 16 MR. GRANT: 17 Q Go ahead. 18 A Here there is, like I said, after these words are 19 spoken, then invitation is sent out. And no chief 20 names are mentioned because there has already been a 21 Tiits before, where they names of these head chiefs 22 are called out. But to indicate everyone there is 23 this Simgi gyet, Sigidim nanak and Kubuu Wilsasxw, 24 that covers all the chiefs, the women chiefs, or the 25 wives of the chief and the nephews and the nieces. 26 This covers all that, those three words mentioned in 27 the address, it's a honour to the people to have this 28 address to them in a gathering. The dignity of what 29 the occasion will be. 3 0 MR. GRANT: 31 Q Okay. And what happened next, you were referring to 32 the invitation was asked to be given by 'Wii Eelast, 33 was there a reason he was chosen to give the 34 invitation for this feast? 35 A Yes, he is our Wil'na t'ahl and he has a high chief 36 name himself. So, we call upon those people when 37 special occasions occur so we have to ask him and he 38 expects -- it's not a last minute thing. He expects 39 him to give the invitation out. So we ask him to do 40 it. 41 Q Go ahead, what happens after the invitation is given 42 out? 43 A So the time is set and of course all of the head 44 chiefs, all the visitors, they go to the community 45 hall where the feasting will start. This is when the 46 feasting starts then, that as the chief's table is 47 already set up, the chiefs start arriving and as they 1 arrive a person at the door calls out their name, 2 their chief name, so the seaters, they go to, they 3 know the seat where this chief is -- they go, and with 4 this seater, we have what we call a talking stick and 5 we tamp on it and while you are tamping, the chief 6 himself has to watch and listen because there may be a 7 a nax nok coming to that one particular chief sometime 8 when you are sitting, this is what happens. Not all 9 the time but when you want to give great honour to a 10 special chief, you get the a nax nok going right 11 there. So, this is why every chief has to walk 12 slowly, watch and listen, so that you are prepared for 13 anything that they -- a Nax nok comes especially to a 14 chief. So, as they walk, you are still hearing the 15 tappings on by the seater and if that tapping stops 16 before that chief comes to his chair, you know that 17 there is a Nax nok that caught this chief so that the 18 tapping stops. But if nothing happens, the chief 19 walks from the door into the doorway, and straight to 20 this seat, well, you feel safe then. Now, these are 21 how the seaters would -- they have to have to watch 22 themselves too. It's not that just you go up to a 23 chief's seat right away, you have to watch what's 24 happening, what's going to happen to this chief. You 25 have to support this chief. It's not likely that the 26 seaters, all they do is just to call the chief up too, 27 we all have to watch, even the other chiefs that are 28 already in the hall they have to keep their eye on 29 that chief. And this is the importance of being a 30 head chief or just a chief. And this is the 31 importance of the seating of the, of these chief. 32 It's not that it's easy just for a chief to walk in 33 and run for his seat. There is -- you have to give 34 dignity to these chiefs. 35 Q Who was the seater at the feast that we are talking 36 about, who were the seaters? 37 A Alvin Weget he is Denii today, and myself. 38 Q Now, just to be clear, the chiefs that you were 39 seating would be chiefs from the Giskaast or fireweed 40 clan? 41 A Yes. 42 Q And the chiefs from the Lax See'l or frog clan? 43 A Yes. 44 Q None of the Lax Gibuu chiefs were seated at this 45 feast? 4 6 A No. 47 Q Go ahead with your explanation of what happened. 289 1 A 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 16 A 17 18 19 20 21 MR. GRANT 22 THE COURT 2 3 MR. GRANT 24 Q 25 A 26 27 Q 28 29 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 34 35 Q 36 A 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Now, all the chiefs are seated, then, in, when I was a child, song was sung for the opening of the feasting by the group, whoever is doing the feasting, a song we have in, the Gitksan people have a song for an opening of their feast and each house has their own song of the opening of a feast. But today we ask one of the chiefs to say grace today. So after grace is said, then the food is served to the people at this time -- I am get go ahead of my -- especially at this feasting, what I am demonstrating today. Before the people was served their meal, Nax nok came. This is at the burial feast we are talking about? Yes, before the food is served, Nax nok came. And, who, whose Nax nok would be performed, or was performed at this feast? Well, it was the house of Luus Nax nok. I am not quite familiar the name of that Nax nok, but anyway, Mrs. Weget draped in her button blanket, she went and she had her wilksa lax with her, at that time it was Violet Clifford, and the name is Aluk or aluxw. Could you explain that for the record. What are you spelling? The name of Aluk. And what House is a Aluk in? Fay's house because Mrs. Weget was Geel, so Fay and Violet Smith were her Geel. You referred to Walter Geel earlier, is that person who holds the name Geel that you were referring to? You said that Walter Geel went with her? I didn't say Walter Harris. And he holds the name Geel? Yes. Now, here again, when I was, when I said yesterday that the Wilxsibagxws and Wilksa laks of Mrs. Weget here -- This is the father's side? Yes, father's side. Here they go around with her while she is acting out this Nax nok. Now, this is the duty of her Wilksa laks to support her. Now, as the Nax nok goes around, one Nax nok of a chief would be very rough in handling this Nax nok so these three people have to support her if she doesn't get hurt. It's not just going around with her, they have to support her. They have to lead her around to people that she touch the chief that -- she touched to have this Nax nok going. Now, like I said some Nax nok, some high chiefs have a very rough, they wrestle with you sometime, or they -- there is a different types of 290 1 really furious Nax nok, so this is these three people 2 have to watch and support Mrs. Weget that she doesn't 3 get hurt. Well, this is the importance of the Nax nok 4 and the people that goes with the, with Mrs. Weget at 5 this time. It's their duty, like I said, they have to 6 support her. Now, this is their one duty again, that 7 her Wilksa laks will do. 8 Q I would like to clarify one point, does performing of 9 the Nax nok by Mrs. Weget that you have described, was 10 this at the funeral feast of Ellen Johnson or was this 11 at the headstone feast of Ellen Johnson? 12 A I believe it was at the headstone. It doesn't always 13 work that way. 14 Q Just take your time so you can be clear which feast 15 you are talking about. Do you want to take a few 16 moments? 17 A I think I should because this is -- I have taken this 18 feasting because -- just a second. Because she is my 19 Wil'na t'ahl and I can't illustrate somebody else's 20 house feasting for any Nax nok. This is the reason 21 why I am taking this because it belongs to my Wil'na 22 t'ahl. And sometimes it's sort of hard for me to 23 explain more things. So you got to bear with me at 24 times. We can go on now. 25 Q You were closely related to Mrs. Johnson? 26 A Yes. 27 Q The burial feast, did the burial feast take place at a 28 different time that be the headstone feast? 29 A Yes. You see, I am, I don't want to take too much 30 time with this, so I am putting the two feasts 31 together, like the burial, just the burial there was 32 no one Nax nok but when we had another feast for this 33 same person, when a headstone was erected. Now there 34 was -- there is things that I am explaining are the 35 feasting so I am explaining the two together. But, 36 with this Nax nok coming, this is when the headstone 37 was put and at the burial we didn't use no Nax nok at 38 all. Because it's just a burial. Some chief has died 39 and everything has to be quiet at a burial feast but 40 at a headstone or erection of a totem pole, there is 41 laughter in it, there is enjoyment in it. So this is 42 when all these Nax nok's come in, the songs come in, 43 used in erecting of a totem pole or a headstone. 44 Q Okay. I understand that, I just -- when you are 45 explaining any different part of it, I will try to 46 direct you to one of the feasts or the other to make 47 it a bit easier for you. 291 1 At the -- was the name and So'o passed on on at the 2 burial feast? 3 A Yes, that's when Mrs. Clara Weget. 4 Q And you described that food was distributed, is food 5 distributed at both the burial feast and the headstone 6 feast? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Now, could you tell the court, maybe in an 9 illustrative way by what you did, who provides the 10 food and where the food and the resources, the food 11 comes from for the feast? 12 A The food is provided by the Wil'na t'ahl, that's the 13 Wil'na t'ahl of Luus house and Gyoluugyat's House, and 14 the food is provided by these. And the people of the 15 different Lax Gibuu House, like Hliyee'n laxha, Marth 16 Brown, they helped to contribute towards the food as 17 well. All that, all the people, young and old, if you 18 are under the Lax Gibuu, you come and bring whatever 19 you want to bring, maybe just a small portion or an 20 awful lot. And that's all accepted to give to our 21 guests. We have to have enough to give to all our 22 guests of the two clans. 23 Q Could you describe the types of food that are brought 24 into the feast? 25 A Today, we always make soup or stew you might call it, 26 bread is plentiful, and soda crackers, apples and 27 oranges, bananas, are brought in. Berries that are 28 picked from the berry patches of the head chiefs. 29 These are all brought in and with these, with this 30 food, it's -- there is a person there that announces 31 who brought this, how many boxes of apples one chief, 32 one person would bring oranges or bread, how many 33 gallons of berries that the women would bring and 34 these women would tell just where they picked these 35 berries, whose berry picking place they brought, they 36 picked it from. This is announced in the feasting. 37 So that all food is announced that who brought, who 38 brings in and what food and it's brought out from the 39 territory is announced as well too. Like fish would 40 be served too, that person that brings that, the fish 41 would say just where, whose fishing section, where 42 that salmon or fish is from, he would announce it. 43 Q Is moose or wild game used at the feast? 44 A Well, that's what we use to make the stew, deer meat, 45 moose meet, and beef today too, but that's all 46 announced too, if you have moose stew, you have to 47 announce where you shot the moose, yours, or -- 292 1 2 THE COURT 3 4 5 A 6 THE COURT 7 A 8 THE COURT 9 Q 10 11 A 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 Q 20 A 21 22 23 Q 24 25 26 A 27 28 29 30 31 Q 32 33 34 35 A 36 37 38 39 40 41 Q 42 A 43 44 45 46 47 Q : I am sorry, I think you have said in addition to wild game and you said "today we use", something about meat? Yes, we use moose meat, deer meat and beef. : And beef? Yes. : Thank you. Do you recall feasts which you have attended where beef, like whole cows have been used at the feast? Yes. When I was quite small, the people of Gitanmax and Kispiox, they would have herd of cattle, like, and when there is a feasting a chief would kill one cow or probably two, if it's your House, you are the host of that feasting and these are -- it's butchered and it's all cut up in small portions and they are all distributed to each chief or to all who is there. But it has to go to the chiefs first. Is beaver used at any of the feasts? Yes, quite a bit of beaver, fresh beaver meat or dried beaver meat and bear, bear meat is dried, it's boiled and it's used in the feast. What kind of food or what did Gyoluugyat bring to either the burial feast or the headstone feast for An Hloo'o? Well, brought soup, we brought the fruit, apples and oranges and some bread, and here again, the women if it's erecting of a headstone, brought glasses, like any chinaware would be given out, towels, dish towels, bath towels, are given out at this time. I would like you to give the court a sense of this, could you describe like the quantity that you would have brought of these things to, say, the headstone feast? Well, one head chief would bring about half a dozen boxes of oranges and apples and about 200 loaves of bread, crackers by the boxes, might be 100, and with the glassware, china area, women would bring in three or four dozens, each woman and the same way with towels, we distribute them by the dozens. What about the soup? The soups they come in about four gallon pail, each person would bring the soup, we have to know just how many we have, so we don't run short of the soup. So there is always plenty, about ten pails of soup would go around and there is plenty over. Ten of these four gallon pails? 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 6 7 8 9 A 10 11 12 13 Q 14 A 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 Q 27 28 A 29 30 31 32 Q 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 A 40 41 MR. GRANT 42 Q 43 A 44 Q 45 A 46 Q 47 293 Yes, hm-hmm. Now, you say this is what a chief would bring? Yes. And how many, can you just -- I don't want you to have to count or name them exactly, but can you give the court a sense of how many chiefs would be involved in bringing this kind of quantity of food and goods to An Hloo'o's headstone feast? Well, to each table, we count it that way, there would be between 40, 45 people on one table. And if there is ten tables there, you have the exact number, 450 people. These are the people sitting? Sitting, yes. So with this amount of people, you have -- we have to have enough of everything -- of any kind of food that each person that comes to this feast, would have, would get a portion of these food and when all this is distribute, you don't just give one apple to one chief, maybe a dozen or a couple of dozen, the same way with oranges, about half a dozen loaves of bread and about three, four boxes of soda cracker to each chief and it's while they are there, and this is what we call So'o food when it's piled you have a container that you put your berries in, a quart or a half a gallon is given to each one. Is any of the food eaten by the chiefs at the feast itself? Yes, they got the soup, that is served, and of course there is baked goods like buns that you would have with your soup, crackers, tea and coffee served, juice. You have described at the headstone feast that a Nax nok was performed, and were you, you indicated that the Wilxsibaagxws, or the father's side, was present for that, would go around, went around with Mrs. Weget. Did you or other chiefs from the Wil'na t'ahl, that is from her own side, related on the mother's side, did you go around with her at that Nax nok? Yes. I went around with her and Alax 'nisxw went around with me. Who held that name at that time? Irene Cournyier. Does she still hold the name today? Yes. Can you explain how she is related to you or to Mrs. Weget? 294 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 THE THE MR. A Yes. She sits with -- alongside of 'Wii Eelast on our table but we all knew -- Q And is she in 'Wii Eelast's House? A Yes. Q What did you do when you went around with Mrs. Weget at the time of the Nax nok? A These chiefs that this Nax nok have touched, we call it touched, just holding the hand of a chief, one chief would act out their Nax nok towards this Nax nok that's going around. And a song has to be sung at that time but our songs are not recorded or anything, so most chiefs don't have a song to sing. But instead of just doing it, not saying anything, you give money and it's like, as I say, money to us now, is in the form of a feather, the down, so that it's given to this Nax nok that goes around. And this is why my work at that time going around, I have to take this money and record the name of the chief who has given and the amount. Because this has to be returned during the feasting. May I say again, that when in a feasting, like I say or about this money, it's in turn looked at as down or feather. Now, all these chief that have given us the money when we went around with the invitation, we have to record all that because all this has to be returned. The same way with Nax nok, and there is a time at the feasting that a chief would make a dance, a song is sung, a person is in their regalia and this is what we call Gus magam 'mix Kaax. And what does that mean, please? Returning of the down or the feather. Thank you. Could you tell the -- I would like to go back to something you described earlier, you described that when the chiefs bring in the food, it's announced what they have brought in and where it comes from? Yes. Why is that done and what is the importance of that to the Gitksan? A Well, the importance of it is for our guests to understand that everyone knows that other people that contribute towards a feasting and so it has to be announced because it still, like in the olden days, nothing was written. But it was announced this way. But today, although it's announced, we have a person records this on paper, what money is spent, what, the amount of food is spent, these are all marked down COURT A COURT GRANT Q A Q 295 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A MR. GRANT THE COURT today. So that we can have a record of how much is spent and who contribute to, towards the feasting. Why is it -- that's why it's announced what each chief has brought in, that's what you described? Yes. Why is it announced where it comes from? That's the importance of the territory, where we, our territory, like, in each territory of the head chief, we have the fishing park, the hunting grounds, the bery patches, on the territory, where we, where these food are brought from. So, it has to be announced in a feasting that this food is from one chief's territory. : My lord, I don't know, maybe it may be a convenient time for a break. : Yes. (Proceedings adjourned for short recess) I hereby certify the foregoing to be a true and accurate transcript of the proceedings herein to the best of my skill and ability. Wilf Roy Official Reporter (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 11:30) 296 1 THE REGIS1 2 THE COURT 3 MR. GRANT 4 Q 5 6 7 8 9 A 10 11 12 13 14 Q 15 A 16 17 18 19 20 Q 21 22 A 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 THE COURT 36 37 A 38 THE COURT 39 A 40 THE COURT 41 MR. GRANT 42 Q 43 44 45 A 46 47 Mr. Order in court. Grant. Before the break, Mrs. McKenzie, you were describing the Nax nox that was performed at this head stone Feast. Why is a Nax nox performed at the head stone Feast and what is the significance of it to the Gitksan at that Feast? The Nax nox is used in a Feasting and in certain Chiefs, touched by this Nax nox, it shows the new Chief honouring her guest Chiefs is by acting out this Nax nox. It's a symbol that's used as appreciation to the head Chiefs. And how did they respond? The head Chiefs, they respond by acting their own Nax nox, some Chiefs do, whom they're touched, and these Nax nox go to the three head Chiefs of the House, and these Chiefs do have their own Nax nox that they respond to this Nax nox that has acted to their -- Can anyone but AnHloo'o perform the Nax nox that was performed at that Feast? No. Wil 'na t'ahl not see any -- you see, there are other Lax Gibuus, like Geel, they have their own Nax nox in their House, although they're Lax Gibuu, but they can't use their own Nax nox except for her own wil 'na t'ahl. This is how it is with Gyoluugyat and Luus and 'Wii eelast, Anda'ap, all wil 'na t'ahl. And we hold our own Nax nox, but sometimes we share and ask permission from 'Wii Eelast or Anda'ap if we can use their Nax nox, because we're their -- we can't really say we use them, like 'Wii Eelast or Anda'ap without asking them for their permission, although they're in our wil 'na t'ahl. We have to have permission, we have to ask. : Mr. Grant, may I ask, does each Chief have his own Nax nox? Yes. : Or does each House have its Nax nox? Each Chief, and each Chief within the House. : Yes. So just to clarify this, An Hloo'o you described was in Luus' House, and An Hloo'o is one of the wings in Luus' House? Well, she's -- Luus, and then she sits beside Luus, so she's not the wing, she's -- you see, there's always three Chiefs in every House. 297 1 Q Mm-hmm, okay. The Nax nox that she performed was a 2 Nax nox of An Hloo'o; is that right? 3 A Yes. It comes from Luus' House. 4 Q Okay. Could Luus perform -- would he have the right 5 to perform the same Nax nox, or would he have a 6 different Nax nox? 7 A In each House there's not only one Nax nox. 8 Q Yes? 9 A There will be several. 10 Q Right? 11 A And the more Chiefs there are, families, they would 12 have more than one, two, or three Nax nox, maybe half 13 a dozen in some Chiefs' Houses, so within the wil 'na 14 t'ahl, we are able to have the Nax nox, say with Luus' 15 Nax nox. I can ask him if at one time that I could 16 use his Nax nox, and he would give me permission, and 17 the same way with him, he ask my -- my permission to 18 use some of my Nax nox in our Feasting Wil 'na t'ahl 19 Feasting, my Nax nox. 20 Q Does Gyoluugyat, and here I'm referring to the 21 Simoogit Gyoluugyat, have more than one Nax nox 22 yourself? 23 A Yes. I've got three. 24 Q Okay. 25 A You better be careful not ask me to do it in the 26 court. 27 Q I will be careful. Does Gwomoon have Nax nox 28 different than those three of Gyoluugyat's? 29 A Yes. 30 Q Okay. Can you go on to describe to the court what 31 happened at the head stone Feast for An Hloo'o after 32 the Nax nox was performed? 33 A After the Nax nox was performed, then this is when 34 money is contributed. We put a pan, and it always the 35 Chief that holds the Feasting, like An Hloo'o would be 36 the first person to give the money out, but then 37 before that money is put into the pan a song has to be 38 sung, and with her regalia she stands -- she has 39 someone to do the singing for her. Now, An Hloo'o 40 will get either Geel, because he's her wilksa'witxw, 41 he would act after the song is sung, Geel will stand 42 and ask in our language, translate, I've just 43 forgotten Clara's name, child's name. Now they call 44 her by her baby name. She would say Nahl Kulo wina, 45 tsinim iim gya'ahl wihl natsiigin. 46 THE COURT: Would you translate that, please? 47 THE INTERPRETER: We call Clara by her baby name and ask if she 298 1 see her come in, and she would. 2 THE COURT: And ask her to come and. 3 THE INTERPRETER: Come in and see where her grandmother is. 4 THE COURT: To come in and see her grandmother? 5 THE INTERPRETER: Um-hum. 6 THE COURT: Thank you. 7 MR. GRANT: 8 Q Go ahead. What happens next? 9 A And after Geel repeats this sentence Clara puts in her 10 money in the pan. 11 Q Is she outside the hall when her name is called? 12 A Yes. She's in the back of the door, and while the 13 song is sung she walks in after Geel calls her in to 14 see the burial of her grandmother. 15 Q And what -- and you say she puts money in? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Into a pan or into a bowl? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Okay. Why does she do that, why is she putting money 20 in? 21 A It's Gitksan law that -- let me -- I tell the modern 22 and before. The older time they didn't use money, but 23 they use the hides of the animals, like the beaver or 24 the ground hog or the hide of a moose, or deer, and 25 these are brought in in the whole portion. Then the 26 moose hide is cut up in portions about 12 inches to 27 probably 24 inches, the same way with deer hide, and 28 ground hog, three or four are sewn together, they're 29 put in, and same way with the beaver hide. Now, all 30 this is put there and there will be piles of that, so 31 after the Europeans came, guns were brought in and put 32 in as well as the hides, because they were able to buy 33 these rifles. Hudson Bay blankets were brought in and 34 were used. 35 Q Um-hum? 36 A So with that, that's a long time ago. Now, all this 37 is given to each Chief, like the Hudson Bay blanket 38 would be cut up like the moose hide and each chief 39 would have a piece given to them, and the same way 40 with the moose hide, the deer hide, the ground hog, 41 the beaver pelts, they would be given, contribute, 42 given to all of these head Chiefs, and it's a way of 43 giving gifts, these gifts given to high Chiefs that 44 come to the Feasting. 45 Q Okay. 46 A Now, today we use money, cash is used instead of like 47 the hides of a moose and deer, because the reason why 299 1 moose and deer was used and the ground hog, the 2 Gitksan people killed these animals off their 3 territory, and there was a season that at prime time 4 when these first are -- and these pelts are of prime 5 sort that they -- this is why they -- it took them 6 many years probably, or a few months to get all these. 7 Now, their season is open for the hunting, it's not -- 8 although they're limited, the kill, but still with 9 every wil 'na t'ahl and every House of a Gitksan would 10 have these prepared for a Feasting, so this comes from 11 the territory, like the ground hog, the beaver, the 12 moose, and the deer, but today we were not able to do 13 that because the seasons are set now for the people to 14 do their hunting and trapping, so we don't use those 15 anymore in our Feasting, so we use cash, but the food 16 is there, we still use the food off of the territory 17 today. We don't use the hide. 18 Q When you say it's taken off their territory, is it 19 taken off the territory of each different Chief, they 20 would go to their own territory to get their own moose 21 hides? 22 A Yes. 23 Q So you're referring not to the large territory on the 24 Statement of Claim, which is the Gitksan territory, 25 but the individual territories of the Chiefs? 2 6 A Individual, yes. 27 MR. GRANT: And you described earlier how the -- where the food 28 came from was announced in the Feast. Was there 29 anything said about -- was there anything said in the 30 earlier days about where the moose hides came from. 31 MR. GOLDIE: What is the earlier days that my friend is 32 referring to? Can we have that established, please, 33 my Lord? 34 A Well, you're the one that's questioning me. 35 MR. GRANT: 36 Q Just answer my question. We'll get to Mr. Goldie's 37 point in due course? 38 A Okay. What was your question? 39 Q My question was, you described how where the food came 40 from was announced, and the Feast it would be 41 announced where the hides would come from, or the 42 moose hides and the beaver skins, those other things 43 you've described. Is it announced where they would 4 4 come from? 45 A Yes. There would be an announcement where the 46 sections of the territory and by whom they were 47 killed, because in Gitksan way, we share quite a bit 300 1 at the same time. Now, one hunter would be very good 2 in getting a moose, maybe two or three. They give 3 that to another House, because they would see that 4 this House doesn't have a hunter, or the hunter there 5 is not as lucky as one, so they share. Food is shared 6 by the Gitksan people. We don't overlook a House 7 that's not too many in it and a warrior or a hunter, 8 so this is shared whatever food, fish, like in the 9 fishing place one House, a Chief, would have more fish 10 in their territory or fishing, the other doesn't. He 11 goes down to that Chief and he gives time. He said 12 the next day, a few days, you take the fish from my 13 fishing place, and it's for your House. This is how 14 they share. They don't overlook that one House hasn't 15 got too much. This is the law that's set with the 16 Gitksan people, that we have to share. 17 Q Have you yourself in your lifetime been at Feasts 18 where moose hides, blankets, and these other things 19 were put in instead of money? 20 A Yes. When I say the older times, I was -- like I 21 said, I entered the Feasting House when I was eight 22 years old, and this -- using moose hides was still 23 used at that time, and up until about 20 years now 24 cash has been used most the time, so this is the -- 25 clarify, the distance is not years back, or it's just 26 in that time of my lifetime that I've seen it. 27 Q Yes, okay. Now, we moved to an aside. I ask you why 28 Mrs. Weget put the money into the pot. Does this 29 happen whenever a Chief is given a new name, whenever 30 a person is given a Chief's name? 31 A Yes. At every Feasting, whatever it may be, it may 32 mean, the Chief of a House, like given names would be 33 the expense of the head chief of a House, and so when 34 a Chief dies the new successor Chief, she gives the 35 money at all Feasts. 3 6 Q Um-hum? 37 A We have to put money together, and this is to the head 38 Chief that you've invited to a Feasting. 39 Q Did anyone else put money in -- firstly, can you 40 recall now how much money was put in by Clara at the 41 burial or head stone, the burial Feast we're talking 42 about? 43 A I may say that I'm not too sure of that, but the 44 Chiefs now they put in $2,000 of the one Chief, today. 45 Q Would it be -- would the Chief put in an amount 46 depending on their rank in the House, that is, let me 47 say, would Gyoluugyat put in more for a Feast hosted 1 2 3 A 4 Q 5 A 6 7 8 9 0 1 Q 2 3 A 4 5 Q 6 A 7 8 9 301 by your House than some of the sub-Chiefs in your House? No. That depends on yourself. Yes? You give what you can provide, and this is how the witnesses in the Feast House have to witness that this one person may not be the highest Chief, but he contributes every time and more amount than others. This is when this person is selected and promoted to a rank in a Chief's House. Did other people put in money as well as An Hloo'o at that Feast? Yes. All the wil 'na t'ahl had to put in as much as we could, what we could afford. And what happened after all the money was put in? There -- one money is the Lax Gibuu Clan would put money in this pot, and there -- there's another group that's already to put in money, and that's the -- what we call Kuts Gesxw. That means the haircutting. 20 THE TRANSLATOR: K, underlined, u-t-s-, G, underlined, e-s-x-w. 21 MR. GRANT: Now, I just want to be clear, because you're trying to -- you're walking us through actually two Feasts, and so is this happening at the burial Feast or the head stone Feast? It happens at the burial Feast, Kut Gesxw is given. Now, who does that? The children of the father. The children of the father of the deceased Chief or of the new chief? Of the late Chief and the new chief. I see. And then what happens at the Feast? Kuts Gesxw is the only group in a burial Feast, but the raising of, erecting of a totem pole or erecting of a head stone, these group again, there's people that would Kuts Gesxw and there's another group that go The Aye'e, we call it. These are the group whose fathers are of the Wolf, Lax Gibuu Clan. They put money on the totem pole or they could put it in during the Feasting time at the raising of the totem pole, there's a song sung, and whoever at that time would give their Aye'e there do so at a totem pole raising or a head stone raising. Um-hum. Now, there's another group again in the Feasting, when a totem pole and a head stone, and like I said, the burial is -- a Chief has died. Now, the totem pole, 22 Q 23 24 25 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 Q 30 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 Q 45 A 46 47 302 1 raising of a totem pole is a joyous time, and head 2 stone. That's when a group of the un dim hanak comes 3 along. 4 THE TRANSLATOR: Do you have Aye'e? 5 THE COURT: Just a moment. 6 THE TRANSLATOR: A-y-e-'-e. Un dim hanak, U-n d-i-m h-a-n-a-k, 7 underlined. 8 THE COURT: Thank you. 9 A Now, this un dim hanak is the group of the spouses of 10 my wil 'na t'ahl would contribute. This is called un 11 dim hanak. They're both for men and women, and it's 12 the spouses of my wil 'na t'ahl, or it could be all 13 from the Lax Gibuu Clan, the spouses of the Lax Gibuu 14 Clan. 15 MR. GRANT: 16 Q Before you proceed with that, what you're describing 17 now, I would like you to go back and ask, can you 18 explain why this group is called Kuts Gesxw, for hair 19 cut, why is that the name given to the children of the 20 father of the deceased chief? 21 A Cut Gesxw shows that you're mourned of your father, 22 and I was told this, I didn't see it, but I was told 23 by my grandmother that the burial of the Chief of a 24 father, you really have to cut your hair short and the 25 same way with the widow. Now, when you have your 26 haircut you have to give gifts out. Now, instead of 27 today we just use the word haircut, there's no one 28 has -- goes and has their haircut, but at that time 29 they -- it was done, and this is how the word started, 30 is the mourning, to show the mourning when these 31 people go around. They have them cut really short, 32 and they know that these people have lost a father. 33 Q And cut back, so to speak, to that, and you were 34 discussing the un dim hanak. You said the un dim 35 hanak was the spouses? 36 A Yes. 37 Q Now, when they put money on the head stone Feast, is 38 there a particular way in which they put in the money? 39 A Well, we have a song. Like I said, it's a joyous 40 thing. There's a merry song sung by the Lax Gibuu, 41 and then the spouses come with their money, maybe $100 42 some of them, 200 some of them, the spouses. They 43 dance into the hall with their money now. This is 44 what the spouses do, so it's put -- that goes in the 45 pot again. 46 Q Now, does anyone else contribute at either of these 47 Feasts, the burial or head stone? 303 1 A 2 Q 3 4 5 6 7 8 A 9 10 THE COURT 11 12 MR. GRANT 13 THE COURT 14 15 16 17 A 18 THE COURT 19 A 20 THE COURT 21 22 A 23 THE COURT 24 A 25 THE COURT 26 27 28 29 A 30 THE COURT 31 MR. GRANT 32 Q 33 34 35 A 36 Q 37 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 42 Q 43 44 A 45 Q 46 47 A Would you rephrase that? I didn't hear. Sorry. Does anyone -- you described how the wil 'na t'ahl contributes and haircuts and the Aye'e and the un dim hanak contribute to these different Feasts. I'm just asking if there's anyone else, any other group that puts money in at the burial Feast or the head stone Feast? No. That pretty well covers it, the haircutting and the Aye'e and the un dim hanak. : Mr. Grant, may I interrupt, because I'm not certain about something. : Certainly, my Lord. : I'm not sure, Madam, who is it that makes these contributions originally of hides but laterally of money. Is it the House or the Clan putting on the Feast? Yes. : Only? Yes. : Not the Chiefs who are invited to the Feast from other Clans or other Houses? No. They receive. : They receive? Yes. : So when you told me that the -- that it was announced where the food and where the hides came from it would be the announcement of those facts by the House or the Clan putting on the Feast? Yes. : Thank you. I'd like to raise a few questions out of that. The first group you described as would contribute at the burial Feast was the wil 'na t'ahl? Yes. And those would all be the hosts that would be doing that? Yes. Then you described -- All the Clan, Lax Gibuu Clan besides all the wil 'na t'ahl. Okay. So first it's the House of which the chief died? Yes. And then it's the wil 'na t'ahl, which are the closely related houses? Yes. And then it's the whole Clan. 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 5 6 A 7 8 Q 9 10 11 12 13 14 A 15 16 17 18 19 20 Q 21 22 23 24 A 25 26 27 Q 28 A 29 30 31 32 Q 33 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 Q 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 43 44 A 45 46 Q 47 304 Then it's the whole Clan? Of the Lax Gibuu. For example, Hlo'oxs is in the wolf Clan, would have contributed at this Feast of Luus, but she's not in the wil 'na t'ahl? No. And whoever is in Hlo'oxs' House would contribute, because they're all Lax Gibuus. That's the first group you've described, and that was when you were answering his Lordship you were referring to the hosting Clan. Now, you've also described the haircut, that is the children of the father of the deceased Chief. Would they all be Lax Gibuu? At the Feast we're talking about? No. It wouldn't be Lax Gibuu people who would have their haircut. It will be the father's side. That would either be the Lax See'l people or the Giskaast people. It's Giskaast people whose -- it's whoever's father is of the Wolf Clan, the Lax Gibuu Clan. These are the people that have Kuts Gesxw. Okay. So just to be clear, maybe we could, if you don't mind, just use yourself as an analogy. If this was your Feast, who would be the haircut, what House and what Clan would they come from? The haircut would come from my wil 'na t'ahl, like -- you see the best is my brother, it's her children, his children would be at here, would give the Kuts Gesxw. But are his children in your wil 'na t'ahl? Yes. And it's the same as 'Wii Eelast's children, Luus' children, Dibe's children, because these are the males that we have, and it's their children that we do the Kuts Gesxw. Are there children in the Lax Gibuu Clan of those people, 'Wii Eelast's children? Is of the Lax See'l Clan. And Luus' children? Of the Lax See'l Clan. And Dibe's children? Of the Lax See'l Clan. So they're from Clans other than the Lax Gibuu? Um-hum. You referred to the fact that they were in your wil 'na t'ahl, but the children are not in your wil 'na t'ahl? No. They're -- children of the male are not my wil 'na t'ahl. Yeah. The other group that you referred to was the Aye'e. Are they -- when they contribute at this Feast 1 2 3 A 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q 10 11 12 A 13 14 Q 15 16 A 17 Q 18 19 A 20 Q 21 22 23 A 24 Q 25 26 27 28 A 29 30 31 32 Q 33 A 34 35 36 37 38 Q 39 A 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 305 we're talking about, would they be in the Lax Gibuu Clan? If it's in Lax Gibuu that's hosting the Feast or putting a totem pole up it's the same again. It's the people of the Lax See'l and Giskaast who would do the Aye'e, whoever's father belongs to the Wolf Clan, they are the ones that contribute, and that's called Aye'e of the totem pole raising. And finally, you referred to the un dim hanak, the spouses of the people of your Clan. Would they be in the Lax Gibuu Clan? No. They would be in the Lax See'l and the Giskaast people again. Okay. And the un dim hanak, is something given at the head stone Feast only? And the totem pole. At totem pole raising, and the haircut is at the burial Feast? Yes. So at these Feasts there would be persons other than the Lax Gibuu that would be contributing that are in these other categories; is that right? Yes. Okay. What happens after the money is put into the pot from these people? You can refer to either the burial or the head stone as you prefer, but inform us which one you want to talk about? After the expense is paid off first from this amount of money, it has to be expense if a totem pole raising, they pay the person that would put these crosses up. Um-hum? And the rope, who buys the rope. These are returned, they're paid off. Any person from the wilxsi bagxws that do any work towards the raising of the totem pole, they are paid for their work, not only money sometimes, but goods are given to them as well. Um-hum. Now, after all expenses are -- what expenses that has to be paid, after all this, then they announce how much money is left in the pot so the people know, and this is when it's given out to each Chief. Now, when this money is given out, this is when it shows too that all head Chiefs have the same amount given to them. Sub-Chiefs are a little less and the wings much less. And the other people, they have quite a bit less. It's just the height of a person is how much 306 1 money is given to you. 2 Q Why are the Chiefs and the other guests given money 3 and gifts at the Feast? I understand the expenses, 4 but after the expenses are paid why is this money 5 given to these Chiefs of the other Houses, the Clans? 6 A Well, it's -- it's a sign that the Clan show of their 7 respect to these people, the head Chiefs, and when you 8 become a head Chief you expect this amount of money to 9 be given to you, and it's the -- as I say, it's in the 10 rank, and it's always been that way in a Feasting. 11 Like I said, other goods were used before and now it's 12 all cash, and it has to be that way. Gifts have to be 13 given to each Chief, and this is what the money 14 indicates, that gifts have to be given to high Chiefs 15 when you're inviting a Feasting. 16 Q Is it important? 17 A We call this money when it's given out, it's called 18 xgwiixw. 19 THE TRANSLATOR: X, underlined, s-w-i-i-x. 20 A Before this -- I'm getting ahead of myself there, I 21 hope you don't mind me but it's just coming to me. 22 MR. GRANT: 23 Q Go ahead? 24 A When this money is all put in this pot it has to be 25 counted. Now, the wilxwsa'witxw, now Mrs. Weget's 26 wilxwsa'witxw are chosen to be the ones to count this 27 money at that time. Now, it's by them who they count 2 8 how much money is in that pot. And when we call these 29 two people, we say like I'll just call Geel for one, 30 "t-aph hayetsxw Geel dim ant". And we now know what 31 that means. He would be the one to count that money. 32 Q Who distributed the money at the burial Feast or the 33 head stone Feast for An Hloo'o? 34 A 'Wii Eelast did. 35 Q And you've already described he's the wil 'na t'ahl? 36 A Yes. He's the wil 'na t'ahl. 37 Q Do the Chiefs who are the guests at the Feast, the 38 Chiefs of the other Clans, other than those who you 39 described, the un dim hanak and those ones who are 40 related, do they do anything at the Feast? Is there 41 any reason why there must be a Feast with them there, 42 whether a burial Feast or a head stone? 43 A You mean the head Chief guests? 44 Q Yes? 45 A Well, there are witnesses, someone has to be at a 46 Feasting. You invite the head Chiefs and they're the 47 witnesses of what -- you have to be very careful. 307 1 Like I said, as soon as you enter into a Feasting 2 House you have to watch and you have to listen, and if 3 one Chief doesn't agree with what's going on in that 4 Feasting House he will let you know, so each head 5 Chief that are guests, Lax See'l and Lax Gibuu, they 6 have to listen of what is said by the host, the Lax 7 Gibuu, and what is -- and what has been done, they 8 have to witness that, and if anything went wrong they, 9 the guests, have to say right there and then that this 10 is not right, so the Lax Gibuu will have to correct 11 that right there. 12 Q Um-hum? 13 A So this is the purpose that the head Chief have to be 14 there to witness everything and to have everything 15 clarified of what is happening in a Feast, so if he -- 16 if there's a dispute in one House of the Lax Gibuu 17 after the Feasting these witnesses are called, these 18 Chiefs are called, and they have to think back how the 19 Feasting and what was said, what names were given, 20 what authority was given to another person, what 21 territory was given to another person, what fishing 22 ground is given to a person to look after that people, 23 use it on that house. Now, if there's a dispute in 24 whoever, like a fishing place, if one person gets in 25 there and calls other people from other Houses, well, 26 there's a dispute there between -- within the Lax 27 Gibuu, this is when your guests, your head Chiefs are 28 called, and then the matter is put before them. If 29 they had witnessed that this was given the authority. 30 If not, well the Chiefs say it isn't so, they have to 31 clarify what was done and what was said in a Feasting 32 House. This is the purpose of the head Chiefs to be 33 there at a Feasting. 34 Q And after the money is distributed or was distributed 35 at these two Feasts, what is the next thing that 36 happens with these? 37 A At this time is when, like I said, when the Nax nox 38 went around and when the tapes came around, money was 39 given to Mrs. Weget. Now, this has to be returned. 40 This feather has to be returned, and a song is sung, 41 there's a young person in regalia has to give a dance 42 when these down or feathers are returned. And if you 43 give five dollars, maybe ten dollars, you give them a 44 bonus of another five dollars on this, so it's 45 returned to you. 46 Q Okay. 47 A Now, that's the -- we call that Gus magam 'miix kaax. 30E 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 THE COURT A THE MR. I said it one time before. Q And is that done before or after the other money that the new An Hloo'o and the other Chiefs put in the pot is distributed? A Yes. That's done, because the bonus money, like if I give ten dollars, five dollars is given to me, that five dollars doesn't come from the pan, it comes from the pocket of that person. It comes from the pocket of An Hloo'o, not from the pot. Q Are any other debts or any other payments given at the Feast other than the repayment of the down, as you've described it? A Yes. At a Feasting the -- like with my Feasting, Lax Gibuu Feasting, my wilxsibagxws will lend me money. They give me money now, maybe $100, one person give me 50, 25, and that's a loan, and from what money I already have to put in the pot I add that to my amount to go into the pot. Now, that's a loan. Further on in any Feasting of the Lax Gibuu I have to return that money to my wilxsi bagxws, and I have to do it in a Feasting house and announce it, so the people will know that we've paid that, and when it's given to me at that time I have to announce it, who has given, has loaned me the money. : I'm sorry, Mr. Grant, but there's something I missed. When the feather is returned, or the if feathers are returned, you said it comes not from the pot but from the pocket of whom, please? This is An Hloo'o's Feasting we're still at. Now, the feathers is given to An Hloo'o, she's -- she's the host of this Feasting, and feathers are given to her, and she's the one that returns it and adds the bonus on it, and the money that's used there to repay the bonus is not from the pot, it comes from Mrs. Weget herself. : Thank you. I think she did refer to An Hloo'o's pocket at the time, my Lord. There's another thing too that I missed out on the loan. Q Go ahead? A You see, when my wilxsibagxws lend me the money, in Gitksan we call that xwda. It means, the word, what it illustrates is they lend me their money so I don't fall in the dirt. It's something for me to fall on. Some people call it, it's their mattress, but it's COURT GRANT Q A 309 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q 10 11 12 13 A 14 Q 15 MR. GRANT 16 THE COURT 17 18 THE TRANS 19 THE COURT 20 21 A 22 THE COURT 23 MR. GRANT 24 Q 25 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 30 31 32 33 MR. GRANT 34 35 MR. GOLDI 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 somewhere where I don't fall in the dirt, I am -- I've fallen on this down sort of thing. So that's a loan to me by wilxsibagxws. Now, I have a husband that's of the Lax See'l. Now, they come and lend me the money too. Now, this in Gitksan, we call guula, guula. Guula is what it is. Now, that's coming from the family of my husband. This indicates that it's a covering for me. Could I ask you, because I'm not clear, you may have explained this the other day. When you referred to that, you're being paid by the wilxsibagxws, which group is that, what relationship is that group to you? My wilxsibagxws is the group on my father's House. Okay. : Would you spell those last words. : No. I already have the wilksalaks. I didn't get what the other spelling. LATOR: Xwda, X-w-d-a. Guula, G-u-u-1-a. : That's the Guula is the loan from the Lax See'l, is it? Yes. From my husband's House. : Thank you. Are those loans repaid in the same manner as you talked about the loan from the wilxsibagxws? Yes, it does. At a later Feast? At a later time, at a later Feast, whenever there's a Lax Gibuu Feasting or whenever -- if it's in the -- in the Feasting of the Frog or Giskaast, when I feel that these people needed money, so I have to return it if it's not in the Feast, Lax Gibuu Feasting. : My Lord, maybe this would be an appropriate time to break. E: My Lord, before we adjourn, may I give my friend notice for request for a document production. I'm doing so now so they may give consideration to it over the noon hour, and if there's concern about it it can be addressed this afternoon, because it has to do with the cross-examination. What I would like to have produced today are the Feast books from Ellen Johnson's burial and head stone Feasts, and the records, which have been referred to by the witness in the course of describing those Feasts. We would like those produced before the time comes for the cross-examination. If I could leave those requests with my friend, and they're on the record so they may 310 1 be discussed this afternoon, if necessary. 2 MR. GRANT: My Lord, I anticipated this request and I've already 3 investigated, and I'm endeavouring to locate those. 4 THE COURT: Thank you. Two o'clock. 5 THE REGISTRAR: Order in Court. This court stands adjourned 6 until two o'clock. 7 8 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:20) 9 10 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 11 a true and accurate transcript of the 12 proceedings herein transcribed to the 13 best of my skill and ability 14 15 16 17 18 Graham D. Parker 19 Official Reporter 20 United Reporting Service Ltd. 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 311 THE THE MR. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 THE 38 39 4 0 MR. 41 THE 42 MR. 43 44 45 THE 46 4 7 MR. (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 2 O'CLOCK P.M.) REGISTRAR: Witness, I remind you, you are still under oath. COURT Mr. Grant? GRANT Q A Q A Q A COURT GRANT COURT GRANT COURT GRANT That you, my lord. We were discussing before the lunch hour, you were describing the distribution of money at the feast of An Hloo'o and you were referring both to the burial feast and the headstone feast. Can you describe for the court what happens or what did happen, at either of those feasts, after the money is distributed and explain if that's -- just describe what happened at those feasts after the money was distributed. After the money was distributed amongst the head chiefs, a speaker is chosen from the Lax Gibuu clan to speak for An Hloo'o, so we chose, 'Wiieelast to speak for her. He indicated that all of tets the late An Hloo'o, what she held, that Mrs. Weget, the new An Hloo'o would have to -- could have the name, to have the name and all the songs that go with it, all the Adaawk, all the territory, like, would go with that. And the chief were told too of her place in the feasting house, that she would sit as An Hloo'o, the late An Hloo'o. This happened. Now, the first entrance to some head chiefs is An Hloo'o, the new An Hloo'o, had the privilege of having the Giskaast put on a feasting at that time and it's her first seating at the seat of An Hloo'o. This is sometime after the burial feast? Yes, this feasting, what I am referring, is given by the Giskaast people. It's a different feast. It's a different feast. So her being the Gitwangax of the Giskaast, when she entered, the first time she is going to sit in An Hloo'o's seat, they had to, when her name was called at the door, Geel had to seat her for the first time in An Hloo'o's seat. I am sorry, Mr. Grant. Are we going to deal with this subsequent event now? That seems to be what we are hearing now. The subsequent feast? Yes. Isn't that what we are hearing now? Yes, we are hearing about the, I think she is describing the first seating of An Hloo'o at a feast put on by another clan. Is it possible that we finish with the burial feast before we start another one? 312 1 Q It may be confusing for the others who aren't -- you 2 are giving a lot of information at once. So is it 3 possible for you to describe before you go into this 4 description, what happened after the end of the burial 5 feast? That is, after the money is distributed, what 6 you -- you described that 'Wii Eelast spoke on behalf 7 of An Hloo'o. 8 A Yes. I am referring now at the headstone. 9 Q Okay. 10 A 'Wii Eelast had given the chiefs and An Hloo'o would 11 hold whatever the late An Hloo'o, the names and the 12 songs, Nax nok, and the territory that An Hloo'o would 13 have with Luus's House. So this is put forth to the 14 head chiefs. And if anything was short of describing 15 what An Hloo'o should have, or the authority she 16 should have, at that time the chiefs would let the Lax 17 Gibuu know. So that when this is -- when this doesn't 18 happen, so the chiefs have to give the authority and 19 the power to An Hloo'o. So, each speaker speaks after 20 the speech given by the chiefs of the Lax Gibuu, 'Wii 21 Eelast spoke and Luus spoke and they both announced 22 about the same thing, that An Hloo'o would have that 23 name. And what the late An Hloo'o held, that she take 24 over. Now the first speaker at that feasting would 25 be Geel, because it's in, it's done in the village of 26 Kispiox and Geel being the head chief of the Giskaast 27 at Kispiox and being the -- 2 8 THE COURT: I am not following this. A moment ago we had 'Wii 29 Eelast was the first speaker. Now we have got 30 somebody else as the first speaker. 31 MR. GRANT: 32 Q 'Wii Eelast is the first speaker after the money is 33 given and he is from Lax Gibuu? 34 A Yes. 35 Q Then Luus spoke and then when you say Geel was the 36 first speaker, you are referring to the first speaker 37 from the guests? 38 A From the guests, after the two spoke for the Lax Gibuu 39 and of the Wil'naa t'ahl. 40 Q Did you speak at that feast as a member of the Wil'naa 41 t'ahl? 42 A Yes, I spoke at that time. 43 Q And that would be after Luus? 44 A Yes. Because there is sections there we have to take 45 and I was the one that thanked the people for coming 46 and this is my position at that time to say. 47 Q So after the Lax Gabuu chiefs spoke, then people, the 1 2 A 3 Q 4 5 A 6 Q 7 A 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Q 15 A 16 17 Q 18 19 A 20 21 22 23 Q 24 25 A 26 27 28 29 30 Q 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 Q 41 42 43 A 44 Q 45 46 A 47 313 guest chiefs who were guests spoke? Yes. And you were referring to Geel and he was the first chief of the guests to speak? Yes. Just proceed then. I am the last speaker of the Lax Gibuu, so I let the other chiefs, the guest chiefs know that I am the last speaker of the Lax Gibuu, so they start. Now, Geel is the first one that spoke that give his blessing, and the honour of him being there, and that he said that always said at -- by the Wil'naa t'ahl, that is correct, and that they would follow it. And who spoke after, who would speak after Geel? Delgamuulw spoke because he is the head chief at that time. And that's the name I would take. What other chiefs from a amongst the guests would speak? Well, each chief from the head tables that we had, had to speak. Like take the Delgamuukw spoke and Maluulak, but she wasn't there, so we went out and 'Wiiminosik would have to speak for the table. And you described yesterday that 'Wiiminosik is at the table? Yes. Then we are still in Lax see'l, so Gitanmaaxs had to speak to the chiefs so Gyetm Galdoo had to make his speech, because he is from Gitanmax, and the Gitan Muldoo'o, he asked to speak for the chief of the Gitanmax. That's the Gitanmax Lax See'l? Yes. And Ts'ogaslee sits at the same table? Yes, Ts'ogaslee sits at the same table at Gitanmandoo'o. Then it goes back to the Giskaast again, Tsii ba saa had to return the thanks and give the blessing and the honour towards An Hloo'o. Then it goes on to the next table Anda ap was there and this was before the change of 'Niis gimi nuu. So that was that table. When you are referring to the 'Niis gimi nuu, you are speaking of the feast, you spoke of the feast you spoke at for Alvin Weget? Yes, it was before in changeover. Would in be other chiefs that would speak after Antlgilibixws? Yes there were quite a few visitors from the different villages at that time, people from Gitksan he Lax 314 1 Gibuu came, and the chiefs from Gitlldahl came and it 2 doesn't have to be just the head chief would speak 3 only who would like to say what they think, and what 4 they had seen, these chiefs would add to the speech 5 too towards what they had witnessed. And what all was 6 said at the door, the power was given, the authority 7 was given to An Hloo'o. So, they all had to say how 8 they feel about it, it's the feeling that brings these 9 speeches out. If you have, if you honour this lady, 10 and you want to talk to her, you have to do it at that 11 time and not outside. So there will be quite a few 12 speakers, in some feasting some is only the head 13 chief, two head chiefs or three head chiefs from each 14 table. And so it's open but the opening is from the 15 chief of the head table. But no one is denied to 16 speak in a feasting of the other head chiefs. 17 Q What language are these speeches given in? 18 A We, to make this very solemn and very important to the 19 Gitksan people, we have to speak our own language, 20 because if we speak in English, it doesn't come right 21 to the point of the feeling of the people. You have 22 to speak from the heart and use your language, speak 23 your language. And that's right from the heart to the 24 new chief. So if we speak in English, a lot is left 25 out, sort of. The feeling is not there. So we use 26 our Gitksan language in the feastings. 27 Q And I am not asking you, of course, to summarize what 28 all these chiefs said, but could you explain the 29 importance or significance of the speeches of the 30 guest chiefs, that is, you have explained why 'Wii 31 Eelast and the people in Lax Gibuu's clan spoke, what 32 is are the significance of these guests in their 33 speaking at the feast? 34 A Well, to the guests, it's important to be there and to 35 be invited, to witness the feasting, what is said and 36 the importance of it. Like I said before, if there 37 was a dispute in a family, the head chief have to 38 correct that. So this is the importance of the chief 39 being there and to make their speeches. They all give 40 the honour to the new chief because when you are 41 seated, you have to -- you can't just get up and go 42 without saying, shall I say it in English, thank you. 43 Your gratitude of being there. These are some of the 44 words that these chiefs would relate, would say to the 45 new successor. 46 Q How long did either of these feasts go on for? And 47 how long does a feast usually go on for, a example of 315 1 these ones? 2 A Well, right from the burial, when it's a burial 3 feasting, it starts right from the House where the 4 casket is taken out from the church up to the cemetery 5 and the feasting itself, we don't finish until about 4 6 o'clock in the morning, starting at 1 o'clock that 7 day. 8 Q In the afternoon? 9 A In the afternoon, because there is so much has to be 10 done, each little thing that -- these songs have to be 11 sung, and the arrangements of the Nax nok would be 12 there, so all these things, and the distributing of 13 the food itself would take time. And it's the same 14 way when you pass the money around, it takes about 15 two, three hours to distribute this money because 16 that's another important thing too is that you, you 17 have to judge how much, when you know how much money 18 there is, you have to judge just how much you are 19 going to give that first chief, then it goes down. 20 And the people, if they don't even get $1 out of that 21 pot, they are embarrassed. So you have to be very 22 careful that the people that handle that money have to 23 have a good judgment of giving all that money out of 24 all the guests that are at that feast. So, that's 25 another important thing, it's not just going around 2 6 and giving the money without thinking. But you have 27 to choose too, the people that do know that have good 28 judgment, to handle this money. 29 Q Do you have anything more you wish to say about the 30 burial or the headstone feast for An Hloo'o -- before 31 we proceed on to this, what you were describing as the 32 Giskaast feast? 33 A No, I think that's it. 34 Q You were describing earlier that at the first feast 35 put on by the Giskaast, after An Hloo'o received the 36 name at the burial feast, certain things happened; can 37 you continue with that explanation as to what 38 happened? 39 A Yes, when, like An Hloo'o there, it's after her 40 feasting, and about a month later, the Giskaast 41 people -- now I am pronouncing the word you say, I 42 mean to say Giskaast -- the Giskaast people held a 43 feasting. Now, when An Hloo'o has to be prepared for 44 this, because it's her first time for her to sit at An 45 Hloo'o's seat. So, the Giskaast being her Wilksa 46 laks, so they chosen Anda ap, when she came to the 47 store, her name was called and Anda ap went to where 316 1 they would seat her and she talked on the chair for 2 her. That's her first time to sit in An Hloo'o's 3 seat. Now, right away An Hloo'o has to give a gift to 4 Anda ap for doing this. It's the proper way. 5 Q I understand what you say, that's the proper way, can 6 you elaborate on that? 7 A Well, it's the way of a new chief would enter into a 8 Feasting House and carrying on. That's a very 9 important thing again is the entering of a new chief 10 into a Feasting House. You have to make way and the 11 Wilksa laks have to be at her aid again. 12 Q So this entrance, the first entrance into a Feast with 13 a new name, is it different than, for example, who 14 you, who held your name at the same time for sometime 15 at the same feast? 16 A No, it's only when you first take the seat of a chief 17 that you succeed. 18 Q I would like to move you back in time to the time when 19 you received the full name Gwamoon, do you recall when 20 that was? 21 A The late Gwamoon, Peter Robinson, died in 1935 and in 22 1935, I was quite young at that time, I wasn't even 23 married, so when he died in July, it wasn't until 24 September that my grandmother and my mother held a 25 feasting, supposed to be the burial feasting. 26 Q Why was it that delay from July to September? 27 A The people were all down in the canneries at the 28 fishing time of the year so they had to wait until all 29 the people were back from the canneries. 30 Q Okay. Go ahead. You were describing that they didn't 31 hold the feast until September. 32 A Yes. 33 Q Can you explain? 34 A It was just like I said, just a burial feast. Now 35 with the name they -- that Gwamoon, the late Gwamoon 36 had, it had to be just held back because I wasn't old 37 enough yet, my grandmother felt that I wasn't capable 38 yet of leading my people at that time. So instead of 39 burying the name with Gwamoon, they took Sam Green, 40 one of our Wil 'naa t'ahl to hold on to that name, and 41 I was not old enough and that I have knowledge of 42 being a chief. So that was held by Sam Green, he was 43 old at that time, but that's another law of the 44 Gitksan, that an older person would have to hold that 45 name until a selected person. This is what happened 46 that Sam Green held the name of '35, and then it was 47 1942 when they -- we had the feasting again for 317 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 Q 10 11 12 13 A 14 Q 15 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 A 21 22 23 24 Q 25 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 THE COURT 30 MR. GRANT 31 THE COURT 32 A 33 MR. GRANT 34 THE COURT 35 MR. GRANT 36 37 A 38 Q 39 40 A 41 42 43 44 Q 45 A 46 47 Q Gwamoon and we had a feasting. There was no, no one died, and there was no totem pole at all put up or headstone, it was just a feasting for me to get that name. So the feasting was held and that was held in 1942. And at that time, it was Robert Wilson, Tom Campbell, my grandmother and my mother were -- got together and they thought it was time for me to take the chief name. So I accepted it. Okay. I would just like to interject for a moment. Your mother and grandmother of course were Ester and Sarah, and they were both in that House, Gyoluugyat Madiik, Gwamoon? Yes. Robert Wilson, what, who was he and how was he related? He was the head chief of Kispiox of the Lax Gibuu. What name did he hold at that time? 'Wii mu Kulsxw. And you also mentioned Tom Campbell? He is of the Lax See'l clan, and we -- they chose him because he is related to my husband at that time. So he was called and Tom Campbell was the Luutkudziiwus at that time. Between 1935 and when the former Gwamoon died and 1942, who was response for Gwamoon's territory? Madiik. And who held the name at that time? My mother did, Ester Holland. I am sorry, I didn't hear that. Madiik was the name. Yes? Ester Holland was the name. "My mother Ester Holland" was the answer. All right. Thank you. And was there a Gyoluugyat at that time or had Gyoluugyat died as well at that time? No, there was no Gyoluugyat then. Who was responsible for Gyoluugyat's territory in that time? Madiik was the only person that had the House and that was my mother and she was the only one living so she had to look after the territory of Gwamoon and Gwamoon, and Gyoluugyat. As well as Madiik's, she was Madiik? Yes, as well as Madiik because she was the only one living of the elders in our House. Now, in 1942, when the feast was held, did your mother 318 1 and grandmother do the Tets, the invitation? 2 A There were, well, you say Tets, just only at Kispiox 3 and Gitanmax at that time. 4 THE COURT: Only at Kispiox and where? 5 MR. GRANT: And Gitanmax. 6 Q And can you tell the court why that was, why your 7 mother and grandmother didn't go to all the villages? 8 A Well, at that time there was only my grandmother and 9 mother were living, and they were the only two. And 10 this is why they had to do as much as they could 11 because there was no one else, because the Gwamoon 12 died and when a chief dies and you bury them, you have 13 people coming full strength, but when it's just picked 14 up from another date, you see, you are practically 15 alone, like, and it takes a while to get the people 16 together. This is why, in 1942, a feasting at that 17 time wasn't as strong as it is like in the 1930s, 18 because the law banned feasting at that time. 19 Q This was the, there was a -- you mean there was a ban, 20 feasts were being stopped? 21 A Yes. 22 THE COURT: When do you say the feasting was banned, in the '30s 23 or '42? 24 A No, the '40s. 25 THE COURT: In the '40s. 26 A Although it was banned, but still chiefs went on, but 27 it was a quiet thing that's why we had to leave a lot 28 of things out and do a sort of small feasting because 29 people were a little bit -- they weren't scared or 30 frightened or anything, but it was -- they were 31 thinking of the embarrassment that would come to the 32 House if they were taken and put out in court about 33 it. Because the thing was banned completely. 34 Q You mean the embarrassment that would come to their 35 House if they were taken by the police and put in 36 court for holding a feast? 37 A Yes, yes. So things had to be quietly done and this 38 is why there was a lot of what's supposed to have gone 39 through the feasting of Gwamoon, didn't happen. 40 Q Such as -- can you give a example of some of the 41 things that didn't happen because of this? 42 A Yes, going around to other villages and using our 43 songs and Nax nok and things like that. So, that 44 was -- wasn't done at that time. 45 Q Was it -- can you describe some of the chiefs who came 4 6 to the feast where you were Gwamoon, became Gwamoon in 47 1942, that is, the chiefs not of Gyoluugyat's House 319 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 group but the other Houses and clans? A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Yes and Who The And Yes Who I remember the few. Lwtguutsiiwas was there, 'Wii K'obil was there, the late John Smith, was that? late John Smith. 'Wii K'obil was at that time? was that? Jessie Sterritt now. Was Delgamuukw there? Yes, he was there. And who was that at that time? Albert Tait. Was Geel there? I know that the Geel was there, but I can't remember if it was Walter Harris or the late Cyrus Johnson. But Geel was there? Yes. Was Hliyeeim laxha there? Well, Hliyeeim laxha is a Lax Gibuu. Was Hliyeeim laxha -- he would have been there as part of the Lax Gibuu? Yes. Do you recall who held the name at that time? Hliyeeim laxha? Yes. I can't really recall right now because there has been three or four changes very quickly. Was Antgulibix there? Yes. Yes, Antgulibix wass there and that was the late Emily Tait. Was Tsii ba saa there? Yes. Was Gyetm Galdoo there? Gyetm Galdoo was there, but was the late James White or Was Gwilyeehl there? Yes, there was one Gwilyeehl, yes. And he was Gwilyeehl? Yes. Gitluudahl, was he there? Yes. Who was that? Moses Morrison. Was that the Moses Morrison that just died a little over a year ago? Yes. I am a little leery if it the late Tom Danes. 1 Q 2 3 4 5 A 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Q 13 14 15 A 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q 23 A 24 Q 25 THE COURT 2 6 MR. GRANT 27 A 28 29 30 31 Q 32 33 34 35 36 37 A 38 Q 39 A 4 0 THE COURT 41 MR. GRANT 42 Q 43 44 45 46 A 47 Q 320 You have described, with respect to this recent feast, these recent two feasts of An Hloo'o, how food and goods were brought to the feast. Did anything like that happen at Gwamoon's feast in 1942? Yes, the food was brought in and there was plenty of it. Like every other feasting there is always a lot of food that had to be put together. And the same way with material and money. The amount of money at that time weren't as much as it is today because this is just soon after the '30s, and money wasn't plentiful too much except for trapping. What kind of food was brought into that feast, and what kind of things were brought in from the territories for that feast? The food that was brought in at that feasting was -- of course we always had stew or soup and it, of course there was bread, soda crackers, apples and oranges, and in 1942, I went with my husband on his trapline and we picked berries there, it was his grandmother's berry patch so we got the berries from there and that's what we used. Now, your husband then, is as today, was Ben McKenzie? Yes. And he was from the House of Luutkudziiwus? : What's that again? : He was from the House of Luutkudziiwus. The money I used at that time came from Luutkudziiwus's territory because he is a trapper. And when he trapped he sold his furs, the money he got from there is what I used at that feasting. Before you go on I -- before you go on I want to clarify a point. I will refer to photograph 19 of the Statement of Claim, which refers to the plaintiff Luutkudziiwus, is that the person who is your husband? Top of page four? Yes. Your husband is another plaintiff in this action? Yes. : Paragraph 47? : Paragraph 19, my lord. Now you said you went out on your husband's trapline, was this, is this part of or was this what is described in this court action as the Territory of Luutkudziiwus? Yes. Can you explain why you went to his territory and not 1 2 A 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 Q 14 15 A 16 17 18 19 Q 20 A 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 25 26 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 Q 31 32 A 33 Q 34 A 35 Q 36 37 38 A 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 321 to Gyoluugyat or Kwamoon's territory in 1942? In Gitksan law, it's expected of me to go with him on his trapline. Now, at wintertime he is a trapper, then in the summertime he is a guide for game hunters, There are different types of guiding he does, so we have ten head of horses so we have to look after through the winter and this is where he kept his horses was at the home cabin. We had to cut hay there. Now, while he is on his trapline for two weeks, I had to be alone to feed these horses. This is, this was my duty of being out there with him on his trapline. And so you stayed, you lived out there on Luutkudziiwus's territory at that time? Yes, we moved in in November and it would be March when we come out and then he goes by himself in May to do the beaver trapping and sometimes too I go out with him. Sorry, you say you went out there in November? Yes. And you came back in --? In March. In March. Did your husband provide you with, you said you got the berries for the feast from his territory, did he provide any meat for the feast of Gwamoon from his territory? Not at that time. What clan is Luutkudziiwus in? The Lax See'l clan, frog clan. Did he attend the feast where you received the name Gwamoon? Yes. Was he seated as a guest? Yes, he was seated as a guest. Did your husband, was anything said about your territory, that is, Gyoluugyat or Gwamoon's territory at this feast for Gwamoon? At this feasting, this is when I took the name of Gwamoon, it was taken off from Sam Green, then it was given to me. Because I mentioned the four people, like my grandmother, my mother, Luutguutsiiwas were there and they were the ones that asked me and I accepted because I was married then. So I accepted the name. So, when the name was put upon me, my mother spoke that being married to a trapper, that he had given permission for my husband to go and trap to our territory. So that's what he did in 1947 when he 322 1 went to our territory. 2 Q Can you explain why your mother said at the Feast that 3 he could go on your territory and why she gasve him 4 that right? 5 A Because there are witnesses there, the head chief is 6 there to witness it and another thing too, where our 7 territory is, there are other territories that we -- 8 that he has to go through to get to our territory. So 9 this has to be explained in the Feasting that the 10 people up there, my neighbours, our neighbours around 11 our territory, if they see him, they know where his 12 destination is, where he is going to go and trap. But 13 he never went in the wintertime, he only trapped 14 beavers there so he left in the late, the last of 15 April, so he would be there for three weeks and then 16 he is back again. So this is why it's announced in 17 the Feasting House, and him being my husband, and he 18 has to support me with money which I may use in 19 another Feasting. 20 Q Is your territory located some distance from 21 Luutkudziiwus's territory? 22 A Yes, quite a -- different. 23 Q Can you give a general description of where 24 Luutkudziiwus's territory is? You have described that 25 yours is in the north of the territory claimed, 26 just -- if you travel from Hazelton, perhaps could you 27 describe? 28 A If you travel from Hazelton we go through two miles, 29 and then it's towards the Babine where his territory 30 is, you have to walk the Babine Trail they call it, 31 which the Hudson's Bay Company used in freight there. 32 So, that's where his territory is. 33 Q And this is the Babine Trail is a route between 34 Hazelton and Lake Babine? 35 A Yes. 36 Q So his territory would be east of Hazelton? 37 A That's where it is. 38 Q Did the other chiefs at the Feast approve or recognize 39 your mother's granting of this right to your husband 40 to use the territory? 41 A Well, as a Gitksan way, they accept it. And being by 42 ourselves, like just my mother and I, I, at that time, 43 in '42, my brother wasn't with us. He was overseas in 44 the Second World War. So that just left my mother and 45 myself and my grandmother. 46 Q This is in your House as the main people in your 47 House? 1 A 2 Q 3 4 A 5 6 7 8 Q 9 10 A 11 12 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 25 Q 26 27 28 A 29 30 31 Q 32 A 33 34 35 36 37 Q 38 39 40 A 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 323 Yes. Now, did your grandmother provide any food for the Feast for Gwamoon in 1942? Yes. She did bring food but she had a herd of cattle too, so at this Feasting, and she was quite old then, so she decided to kill three of her cows at that time to use at the Feasting. And what was done with those three cows that were killed? They were butchered and cut into pieces that every chief and all who was there would have a portion of of the meat. And was this part of their So'o food to take home? Yes, part of the So'o. Was moose given out at Gwamoon's Feast in 1942? There were some there that was contributed of other Lax Gabuu people. What was done with it at the Feast? They were cut in strips and contributed to the chiefs. Were Hudson Bay blankets used at that Feast? Yes. What was done with them? They were stripped in small portions. And they were distributed. Maybe you could explain to the court why the Hudson Bay blanket would be cut up and if was used for something when it was cut up? The Hudson Bay blanket was used in cutting and cut in strips, just the size that they would use inside their moccasins and we called this piece lee'la leel. Okay. And they were used -- Yes, the extra binding inside your moccasins, that you say how they were used when given to them. Because at that time a lot of people travelled, went out in their traplines and moccasins were worn on their snow shoes, they had to have a better bed in their moccasins. Could you describe the ceremony, how you, what happened when you were being given the name Gwamoon at this Feast 45 years ago? At that time, my mother was the one that spoke and explained to the chiefs that the name was, name was given to me and that I, at that time, had my own House then, that I was in this Gwamoon's House. And the crests and the blankets and the songs and the territory of Gwamoon would -- I'd be -- I would be the one to give it authorities and permissions. And the territory and the House. 324 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q A Q A Q A Q A MR. GRANT THE COURT Was Gwamoon's territory described at the Feast? Yes. It was described. And, were you called into the Feast, like, you described how Clara Weget was called into the Feast that happened more recently -- At that time, no, I wasn't called in at that time. But I, at the next Feasting of the Lax Gibuu, it's because at my Haaluus at Gitangat, they weren't in Kispiox, so I was -- another Feasting of the Lax Gibuu, I had to give gifts to them, even though they weren't there. And these were people from are the House of Haaluus? Yes. Did you wear regalia at the Feast for Gwamoon in 1942? No, we didn't have no regalia. And my grandmother and mother did not want to make any regalia. In 1924, we had a store and a House at Kispiox, and here were all the regalias of Hlo'oxs, Gwamoon, Madiik, Dibe regalias, we kept in the House where we lived in Kispiox. So in 1924, February, 1924, the House burned down and this is where we lost every -- everything we had. : It would be a convenient time. : All right. Take the afternoon adjournment now. (Proceedings adjourned for short recess) I hereby certify the foregoing to be a true and accurate transcript of the proceedings herein to the best of my skill and ability. Wilf Roy Official Reporter (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 3:15) 325 1 2 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. 3 THE COURT: Mr. Grant. 4 MR. GRANT: 5 Q Yes. At the Gwamoon Feast were any limx oo'y sung? 6 A Yes, there was. My mother sang those songs. 7 Q Those were -- I'm sorry. Those were your mother sung 8 them or -- 9 A Yes. And my mother was there. 10 Q Okay. And whose limx oo'y were sung at that Feast? 11 A Well my mother's limx oo'y. I stated that my 12 grandmother died in 1942, but this thing happened in 13 the Feasting, like the burial Feast was in September 14 of 1935, but the Feasting was done in January of 1942, 15 my grandmother died in February the next month, so she 16 was able to be with us at this Feast. Being so, she 17 did the singing of the songs. 18 Q Okay. So the Gwamoon Feast in January of '42, was it 19 a head stone Feast for Gwamoon, or like a burial 20 Feast? 21 A It's more like a burial Feast again, but it was -- 22 this Feast was given so that I -- I would get the name 2 3 Gwamoon. 24 Q So in fact it was like a naming Feast? 25 A Yes. It was sung then. 2 6 Q Okay. I would like to move you forward in time to a 27 Feast that was held this year, and I'm referring to 28 the Feast of Delgamuukw. You knew Albert Tait, who 2 9 was Delgamuukw? 30 A Yes. I knew him, I knew Albert. 31 Q And when did he die? 32 A He died in January of -- 19th of January, I believe. 33 I'm not too sure, but he died in January. 34 Q Of this year? 35 A Of this year. 36 Q Okay. And the court has seen on Tuesday, he saw, the 37 court saw Ken Muldoe, and he is the present 3 8 Delgamuukw? 39 A Yes. 40 Q Now, did you attend the funeral and the Feast for 41 Delgamuukw? 42 A Yes, I did. 43 Q Okay. Can you describe to the court what happened at 44 his funeral Feast in January of this year? 45 A We had the usual procedures that be given to the death 46 of a head Chief. 47 Q Starting at the home before the funeral, did the 326 1 2 3 A 4 Q 5 6 A 7 Q 8 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 15 Q 16 A 17 Q 18 A 19 Q 20 21 A 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 Q 31 A 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 THE COURT 39 4 0 MR. GRANT 41 Q 42 43 A 44 Q 45 A 46 47 Q Chiefs do anything at the home before the casket was taken out? Yes. A limx oo'y was sung at that time. Was that Dalgamuukw's limx oo'y, or was that the limx oo'y of the other Chief? It was the limx oo'y of Dalgamuukw, I believe. Okay. Was regalia, was the blanket of Delgamuukw used at the time of the funeral? Yes. It was draped on his casket. And was the casket taken to the church from the home? Yes. Was the blanket? The blanket was still draped on the casket when it went into the church. Okay. And you were present at the church? Yes. And this was in Kispiox? It was in Kispiox, yes. Okay. Could you tell the court what happened at the church when the casket was brought in? When the casket arrived in the church it was -- the casket was still draped with the button blanket, and after the service again Ken Muldoe was called up to the front of the casket, and with him they called Waigit, like Elsie Morrison, and the other Chiefs were called up as well to give the blessing to Ken Muldoe, and this is when the button blanket was taken off the casket and it was put on Ken Muldoe by Elsie Morrison, Waigit. Okay. And what did that -- why was that done? That showed the people at that time, and it is a thing that was used by new Chiefs now, was to have these blankets draped on a person, and that the blessing by the minister is given and also by the Chiefs themselves. Sometimes a limx oo'y is sung in the church at this ceremony putting on the button blanket onto the new chief. : I'm sorry. Was the limx oo'y sung in the church? You said sometimes it is? Was it sung at Dalgamuukw's -- was the limx oo'y sung at Dalgamuukw's funeral? Yes. Was it sung in the church? No. It wasn't sung in the church, but before the casket was moved from the house it was sung. This ceremony of putting the blanket on the Chief in 327 1 the church, was it done -- as far as you know, has it 2 always been done that way or has it -- is the blanket 3 being put on the person somewhere else in the church? 4 A When -- at first I don't know what year it was, but 5 I've seen a Chief just as the casket is taken out from 6 the house, it's set outside the front of the house 7 draped with the button blanket, and then a little 8 ceremony is held there. All the head Chiefs are asked 9 to come forward and stand with the person that will 10 take the Chief name, and then a limx oo'y is sung and 11 that blanket is removed from the casket, and it's put 12 on the new -- would be knew Chief, so that is still 13 done. It just depends on how the feeling of the 14 family themselves, and with Albert Tait, he's a very 15 sincere person, and he's one of the church leaders as 16 well, so this was the reason why this ceremony was 17 done in the church. 18 Q What happened after the funeral of Delgamuukw, that is 19 after the church service itself? 20 A Everyone proceeded to the grave site, and at that time 21 there was some hymns that Albert Tait sung many times, 22 and the people came and they sang these hymns while 23 lowering of the casket. 2 4 Q Um-hum? 25 A After these pieces of hymns were sung Ken Muldoe came 26 forward and he gave the invitation out again to the 27 people that attended the funeral. He gave thanks to 28 them too as well for the -- for the support that the 29 people gave to the family, the Chiefs, of just being 30 there, and the great support that the people had done 31 for them. He had to return his thanks to the people. 32 Again he put out the invitation to the people, to the 33 Chiefs, and to all to go and attend the Feasting in 34 for late Albert Tait. 35 Q Did you attend the Feast? 36 A Yes, I did. 37 Q And can you describe what occurred at the Feast from 38 the time you came into the Feast Hall? 39 A Like I said before, most Feastings have the same 40 procedures done into the Feasting, calling of the 41 Chief's name and seating them, and then the food 42 was -- was served out, and then the -- before the 43 money was put in the pan there had to be a song, a 44 limx oo'y sung again after Kenny had his button -- the 45 button blanket on, and his brother Earl was with 46 him -- no. Before Kenny Muldoe took the name of 47 Delgamuukw he held another Chief name, and that was 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Q 8 9 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 14 Q 15 A 16 17 Q 18 19 A 20 21 Q 22 A 23 24 25 26 27 Q 28 A 29 30 31 32 Q 33 34 A 35 Q 36 37 38 A 3 9 MR. GRANT 4 0 THE COURT 41 42 A 43 THE COURT 44 A 4 5 MR. GRANT 46 47 A 328 'Wii a'lak. Now, with Ken moving up to the seat of Delgamuukw they had to have another person to take Kenny's Chief name before, 'Wii a'lak, so they chose his brother Earl, so the two of them had -- wore button blankets at the Feasting. Because he, Earl, will be the next 'Wii a'lak at that time. Could you just clarify or -- where at the time when Albert Tait was alive and was Dalgamuukw he sat at the head of a table? Yes. He sat at the head of the table. Where did Ken Muldoe sit in relation to Albert Tait? With the directions on Delgamuukw's table facing the doorway of the hall. Yes? And Delgamuukw facing the doorway 'Wii a'lak sits on his right. The first Chief on his right. Okay. And where would Earl Muldoe have sat when Albert was -- He sat at the end of the table. You see, there's three brothers there. Yes? And Sampson Muldoe. 'Wii a'lak sat at the other end of the table on Wa'a's left facing the door, that's where Earl Muldoe sat. So when all these names were given out, seats were -- new people came to these seats of the moving of Ken. I see? Now, this is when Ken took Dalgamuukw's chair. Earl had to be taken and put in 'Wii A'lak's seat, so Earl took one of their nephews and placed him where he sat before. Okay. Do you recall who did the seating of the Chiefs at Delgamuukw's Feast? Alvin Weget, Niis Giminuu, and myself. Are you and Alvin Weget, Niis Giminuu, are you commonly requested to do the seating for Chiefs even if the Feast is not a Feast of your Clan? Every time. : Okay. : I'm sorry. You get requested every time, or the three of you every time? The two of us every time. : Which two? Niis Giminuu and myself. : The court may be confused. Niis Giminuu is Alvin Weget. Yes. 329 1 THE COURT 2 3 MR. GRANT 4 Q 5 6 A 7 Q 8 9 10 A 11 Q 12 13 14 15 16 A 17 Q 18 19 20 A 21 22 Q 23 A 24 MR. GRANT 25 26 THE COURT 27 MR. GRANT 28 Q 29 30 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 35 36 Q 37 A 38 39 40 41 42 Q 43 44 A 45 46 47 : Yes, I'm sorry, I didn't make that check, have. Yes, it's written down here. Sorry. I should Yes. And is this -- yesterday you gave a detail of the seating? Yes. Is your knowledge of that because of the training you've had with respect to seating and your experience of seating all the Chiefs of all the Clans? That's right. I would just like to ask you, who was the person who would -- who did the speaking, that is the -- at the Feast of Albert Tait, and by that I'm saying the person from the Albert Tait or Delgamuukw, what Clan is he? Lax See'l. The person from the Lax See'l Clan who would announce who put food in and how much they put in, who did that at Albert Tait's, the Delgamuukw's Feast? The announcer, and at that time about the food and who brought them in. Ts'ogas lee did that, Walter Wilson. He's one of the plaintiffs in this action? Yes. : I refer to paragraph 11 in your Statement of Claim for your reference, my Lord. : Thank you. Now, when the food is served out, you've said much of the same process has happened at Gwamoon's Feast that happened at Delgamuukw's. Yes. So the food was brought in by the Lax See'l? Yes. All the Lax See'l people, who, they maybe female, male, young people, all from the Lax See'l Clan would bring in that food. And who does the serving at the Feasts? All the Lax See'l people who do the serving and the stew, and then the serving of the other -- like the bread, the crackers, the orange, and the apples. All the Lax See'l people will take part in serving the people. Are there certain rules as to the order of serving people and how the serving is done? Yes. There is a ruling there that we have to tell our young people today that never to start at the bottom of the table, it has to be the head Chief of the table have to be served first, no matter what food is 1 2 3 4 5 Q 6 7 8 9 A 10 11 Q 12 13 A 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 Q 22 A 23 Q 24 A 25 26 Q 27 28 29 A 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 Q 38 39 A 40 Q 41 42 A 43 Q 44 A 45 46 Q 47 A 330 served, the head table, the Chief of the head table, because there would be several of the head Chiefs of a head table, and they have to be the first to be served. And this would be, for example, the Chiefs who are named at the ends of the tables in the seating charts, they would be examples of some of the head Chiefs that would be served first? Yes. And the wings of the Chief would have to be served, then it goes down to the nieces and nephews. What about the pace at which they're to serve the food? To serve the food the Gitksan people have their own etiquette. It has to be served -- it has to be served very carefully. You don't just slap down the sandwich in front of a Chief, or when you're serving coffee, if there was just very little in a coffee pot, enough for another cup, you don't serve that to a Chief, you have to fill the pot up again and then serve it. This is etiquette of serving the people in the Feast house. Why is that? Well, they're head Chiefs. Yes? And they have to be treated as head Chiefs. They are honoured that way. At the time of the Dalgamuukw Feast in the Feast Hall itself was there a process, did somebody call Ken into the Feast Hall, that is the new Delgamuukw? Yes. Beverly Anderson was called to put on the button blanket on Ken, and he walked out and then a song, limx oo'y, is sung, and then when this limx oo'y is finished Elsie Morrison had to call Ken in, and as I repeated before, the same thing, called Ken in by his infant name, and I say it in English this time, he said "Ken, are you there, come in and see about your uncle". And this seeing about your uncle is referring to the late Delgamuukw? To the late Delgamuukw. Why was Bev Anderson the one who put the blanket on him? Because she was one of Ken Muldoe's wilxsi witxw. And who was Elsie Morrison? Is she Waigit? Yes. She's Waigit, and Bev Anderson is in their House. And so, yes, Waigit was also his wilxsi bagwinsxw? Yes, um-hum. 331 1 Q 2 3 A 4 5 6 Q 7 8 A 9 10 11 Q 12 A 13 14 15 THE COURT 16 MR. GRANT 17 THE COURT 18 THE TRANS 19 THE COURT 20 MR. GRANT 21 Q 22 23 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 Q 28 A 29 Q 30 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 35 36 37 Q 38 39 A 40 Q 41 A 42 Q 43 A 44 45 46 47 Q What does it signify when the wilxsi bagwinsxw calls in the person who's going to get the new name? It indicates that the wilxsi bagwinsxw of that person, and it shows too what House is Ken Muldoe's father from. Is there any responsibility that the wilxsi bagwinsxw takes on by doing that? Yes, it does. Giving -- Kenny giving the honour to his wilxsi bagwinsxw to support him whatever he needs to be supported by his wilxsi bagwinsxw. Now, why is the limx oo'y sung again in the Feast? Limx oo'y is sung in a burial Feast only when a person dies, a limx oo'y is sung. It's called a mourning, m-o-u-r-n-i-n-g. I don't think I've been given the spelling of that. Limx oo'y? Yes. LATOR: L-i-m-x o-o-'-y. : Thank you. Did -- this is the mourning song you said. Now, you described that Delgamuukw's limx oo'y was sung at his home? Yes. Before the casket was taken out? Yes. And sometimes it's sung in the church? Yes. Now, you've also described that in Delgamuukw's Feast it was also sung at the Feast? Yes. That was Delgamuukw's limx oo'y; is that right? Yes. Because Delgamuukw has died, so every time there's a song sung we're still all in mourning, so that limx oo'y is sung several times as the ceremony takes place. Okay. Where did the limx oo'y -- the limx oo'y for your house is different than for Delgamuukw's? Yes. It's different? And each House has their own limx oo'y. Okay. Each Chief has their own limx oo'y. And as I said, it's the limx oo'y of a house and the sub-Chief of that House and the wings of that Chief of that House, that same limx oo'y would be sung. Delgamuukw has territory? 332 1 A 2 3 Q 4 5 A 6 7 8 Q 9 A 10 MR. GRANT 11 THE TRANS 12 MR. GRANT 13 Q 14 A 15 Q 16 A 17 THE COURT 18 A 19 THE COURT 20 MR. GRANT 21 Q 22 23 A 24 MR. GOLDI 25 26 27 28 29 30 THE COURT 31 MR. GRANT 32 33 34 35 36 37 THE COURT 38 MR. GRANT 39 40 41 THE COURT 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. GRANT Yes. It was -- it was said in the Feast House when a speaker was asked to speak for Delgamuukw. And who was asked to speak for Delgamuukw at his Feast? Ken spoke first himself, the new Delgamuukw spoke, and it was brief. He only gave a thank you to the people, but he called on Um lax yeltxw to speak for him. And who holds that name? Solomon Marsden. : Could you spell that name, Mr. Interpreter. LATOR: U-m l-a-x, underlined, y-e-1-t-x-w. Who was the holder of that name? Solomon Marsden today. And he's a Gitksan? He's a Lax See'l from Kitwancool. : From Kitwancool? Yes. : Thank you. What was said about Delgamuukw's territory at his Feast? When -- E: Excuse me, but before Mrs. McKenzie answers, is there any reason why the person who stated what the territory is won't be called? I mean this is hearsay, it deals with a very important part of the case. Is there some reason why the person who made the statement can't be called? : Mr. Grant? : Mr. Marsden will be called as a witness himself. It's not -- rather than disjointing the description of this Feast, what this witness is describing is the Feast and what was described there, what occurred at the Feast to demonstrate the process of the Feast to you. : At best it's evidence of what was said. : Yes. And that in itself, I submit, is significant evidence of what was said at the Feast, describe the process of the Feast. : All right. I think I'll allow this. There are lots of problems with it, which may or may not be serious. Mr. Goldie's observation is recorded. I think I'll hear it. It doesn't prove anything more than the fact that at the moment, anyway, it doesn't prove anything more than the fact that this is what was said. 1 Q 2 3 4 A 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 22 A 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 Q 30 31 32 A 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 Q 44 A 45 46 47 333 That's correct, and that's why I wish to lead it. Go ahead. What was said about Delgamuukw's territory at the Feast? Well, when Um lax yeltxw spoke for Delgamuukw, that's the law in a Feasting house, that a speaker has to speak for the new Chief because our new Chiefs can't just come out and say this is mine, this is going to be mine, this territory belongs to me. That's not the case in Gitksan. That sounds pleading to the Chiefs in a Feast house, and that is -- we don't use the sound of pleading. We have to accept what's given to us, so this is why a speaker has to be selected for that Chief, to announce what this new Chief would hold, like the name, the songs, the Nax nox, and the territory that goes with it, so this is the sense. That's why a speaker has to be the authority to the new Chief. And did -- is this what Mr. Marsden said? Yes, yes. What did the other Chiefs do after Mr. Marsden described what Mr. -- what the new Delgamuukw had? All the Chiefs at that time agreed with what was said by the -- the speaker for the new Chief, that all rights were -- are Kenny's, the new Delgamuukw, that the name, the seat, he would be seated at the head table then, all the songs that is held by the late Delgamuukw, the Nax Nox', all the regalia and the territory that's held by the late Delgamuukw. Is there a process at the Feast where the Chief, the new names that are being transferred are called out at the Feast, and did this happen at Delgamuukw's Feast? Yes. It did happen to the new Delgamuukw when he was announced that he would have the name of Delgamuukw and that he would -- he would be seated at the end of the table then. Now, all the Chiefs, head Chiefs at that time will have to acknowledge the name, so a name -- his name would be called out, and there's a phrase there that Chiefs use most of the time when they acknowledge the name of a Chief, and Ken has to produce some money, and this money doesn't come from the pot, it comes from his own pocket, maybe $200, $300. Um-hum? And each Chief has to acknowledge that name by calling the name, and I'm say it in my language, "Ee dim uma yees --". I'm getting all my Chiefs mixed up. You just forget that. I repeat that again. "Ee dim uma 1 2 3 Q 4 5 A 6 Q 7 8 A 9 10 Q 11 A 12 13 Q 14 15 A 16 17 18 19 Q 20 21 A 22 23 Q 24 25 26 27 A 28 Q 29 30 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 37 38 Q 39 A 40 Q 41 42 A 43 Q 44 A 45 Q 46 A 47 Q 334 yees Delgamuukw". That's the phrase that the Chiefs would announce to the new Chief. Is that the phrase of the people calling out from the Lax See'l? Yes. Do you wish the interpreter to translate that, or can you translate it? The phrase to that is "Delgamuukw walk slowly and on the breath of your grandfathers". And do the Chiefs respond when that's -- This is the response, the sentence that they respond to his name when they acknowledge it. Did you respond, is your -- did you call that out at the Feast? Yes. And this is the phrase I used, because most of of the Chiefs used that phrase, but there are other Chiefs that would have a different phrase of acknowledging them. Okay. And would the Lax See'l, did the Lax See'l pay you for that recognition? Yes. Ken Muldoe produced the money to all the Chiefs that acknowledged his name. Was money put into the pot for -- at the Delgamuukw Feast like at the other Feasts, the An Hloo'o Feast as you described? Was there money put in by Ken and by others? Yes. You said he took $200, there was maybe $200 or whatever he distributed to the other Chiefs that he put money into? Into the pan? Yes? Yes. Okay. When he was called in by his Wilxsi'witxw. That's when he put the money in, and his brother Earl came right after him, and then the mother. The mother of -- Ken Muldoe. And Earl -- Earl and Kenny were brothers, so their mother? Yes, um-hum. And is that Bonnie Muldoe? Yes. And her Chief? Yes. Ux gitii'y. Ux gitii'y? 335 1 A 2 MR. GRANT 3 THE TRANS 4 MR. GRANT 5 Q 6 7 A 8 9 10 Q 11 12 A 13 14 15 16 Q 17 18 19 A 20 Q 21 22 23 A 24 25 26 27 Q 28 29 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 Q 34 A 35 36 37 THE COURT 38 A 39 MR. GRANT 40 Q 41 A 42 MR. GRANT 43 44 THE COURT 45 MR. GRANT 46 THE TRANS 47 THE COURT Ux gitii'y. : Could you spell that for the court. LATOR: U-x, underlined, g-i-t-i-i-'-y. And does she sit -- where does she sit at a Feast, where Delgamuukw's sitting at the table? With Delgamuukw facing the door, and their table is downwards, and Ux giiti'y sits on the left side of Delgamuukw, across from 'Wii a'lak. Okay. Now, do you recall how much money was put in by the new Delgamuukw at this Feast? At this time I don't recall, but it's quite a bit of money anyway. As I said before, these things are recorded now and written, so each Chief has their own book of records of Feasting now. Were there Chiefs from other villages, Lax See'l Chiefs from other villages that attended the Dalgamuukw Feast? Yes. There was Giskaast, from Itsulak(?) and -- Maybe you didn't hear the first part of my question. I asked if there were Lax See'l Chiefs from other villages as well? Yes. There were two. They had all the people of the different villages that attended the funeral, if they were in the Lax See'l, they contribute towards the whatever it is are for the Feast. Can you give the names of some of the Lax See'l Chiefs from the other villages that attended Delgamuukw's Feast? Lelt there, and he spoke. That's Fred Johnson? Fred Johnson from Gitwangax. Was Maluulak there? Yes. He was -- he was -- Robert Jackson Senior represented Maluulak because she wasn't there. She was ill down in Vancouver. : Robert -- I'm sorry? Robert Jackson Senior. Okay. And Simgitgigeenik. : Could you provide the spelling of that, Simgitgigeenik? : Which one? : Simgitgigeenik. LATOR: S-i-m — : Which one are you giving me? Are you giving me Fred 336 THE THE THE THE THE THE 8 THE 9 THE 10 THE 11 MR. 12 THE 13 14 15 MR. 16 THE 17 THE 18 MR. 19 20 21 MR. 22 23 THE 24 25 26 27 2 8 THE COURT 29 30 31 32 MR Johnson? TRANSLATOR: No. Lelt, L-e-l-t. COURT: Thank you. TRANSLATOR: Simgitgigeenik, S-i-m-g-i-t-g-i-g-e-e-n-i-k. COURT: I'm sorry. S-i-m-g-i-t — TRANSLATOR: g-i-t — COURT: Yes. TRANSLATOR: g-i-g-e-e-n-i-k. COURT: Thank you. TRANSLATOR: Do you want Maluulak. GRANT: Maluulak was also given. COURT: I've only got two names, Fred Johnson and Robert Jackson? A Yes. Robert Johnson represented Maluulak. GRANT: Could you give the spelling for Maluulak, please. TRANSLATOR: M-a-1-u-u-l-a-k, underlined. COURT: Thank you. GRANT: Q I notice you appear to be getting tired. Are you? A I believe I am. GRANT: All right. I would ask, it's only a few moments before 4:00. Maybe if we can adjourn. COURT: Yes, all right. Are you able to say, Mr. Grant, how are we getting along? (DISCUSSION RE-SCHEDULING) All right, yes, All right. Just before we adjourn, at no time did I make -- at least I don't think I made a note of the spelling of Ellen Johnson's name, An Hloo'o. How is that a spelled, please? GRANT: This is the name that went from Ellen Johnson to -- 33 A An Hloo'o. 34 THE TRANSLATOR: A-n H-l-o-o-'o. 35 THE COURT: I'm sorry. A-n H-l-o-o — 36 THE TRANSLATOR: Apostrophe 0. 37 THE COURT: Apostrophe at the end? 38 THE TRANSLATOR: Apostrophe 0. 39 MR. GOLDIE: There is, I believe, a 40 there not, Mr. Grant, tab 41 about the 8th or 9th name down? 42 MR. GRANT: Yes. There is a spelling there, A-n H-l-o-'-o. 43 That refers Dorothy Weget, and that's Clara Weget as 44 well? 45 A Yes. 46 THE COURT: I see, all right. Thank you. I Wish you all a very 47 pleasant weekend. spelling in the book, is 3 at the left-hand column 337 1 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. 2 3 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:00) 4 5 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 6 a true and accurate transcript of the 7 proceedings herein transcribed to the 8 best of my skill and ability 9 10 11 12 Graham D. Parker 13 Official Reporter 14 United Reporting Service Ltd. 15 16
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Trial proceedings
British Columbia
KEB529.5.L3 B757
English
Uukw, Delgam, 1937-
Indigenous peoples--Canada
Oral history
Wet'suwet'en First Nation
Vancouver : University of British Columbia Library
Vancouver : United Reporting Service Ltd.
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Original Format: University of British Columbia. Library. Law Library.
[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1987-05-15]
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