CONTENTdm
Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts
Giraud, Victor Herbe
British Columbia. Supreme Court
application/pdf
1 INDEX PART I - EVIDENCE PAGE Witnesses for the defendants GIRAUD, V. H. Cross-exam by Mr. Rush 92 (continued) PART II - EXHIBITS No. Description 42 Annual Report for 1953 - Document 422 0 93 43 Appendix "A" to Minutes of Meeting, 123 June 2, 1960 - Lakelse 44 Memorandum dated November 14, 1973 - 125 Mr. Bogart to Mr. Giraud - Document 2174 45 Memorandum dated November 14,1973- 125 Mr. Bogart to Mr. Giraud - Document 2175 46 Document No. 1676 138 92 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd 1 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. RUSH CONTINUED: 2 QYesterday I was asking you about the guardians that were 3working under your direction -- 4 AYes. 5 Q -- while you were the fisheries inspector, and I asked you 6 a few questions that you couldn't recall exactly and what 71've done is, I've gone to some of the documents which 8you've provided just to assist us here: 9 AHm hmm. 10 QThe first one I wanted to show you was Document No. 4219, llwhich is Exhibit 8, and there is a reference in this 1952 12Annual Report of yours to Mr. Ironside and I think this 13gives us a hint there under, "Guardians," -- do you see 14that on Page 2 -- as to the length of time f Mr. 15Ironside's employment? You say here, 16*0ne guardian was employed in the 17 Terrace/Lakelse area this year. 18 This man, Mr. G. F. Ironside, had to 19 be retired from service before the 20 end of the salmon season due to his 21 age. At the time of his retirement 22 no suitable man could be found to 23 take his place and the season was 24 finished without a guardian." 25So, it would appear from that, Mr. Giraud, that Mr. 26Ironside left his job as a guardian sometime midway through 27the summer season of 1952, is that right? 28A Yes, that's right, apparently.I wrote it so it's got to 2 9be right. 30Q So you're going on what it says here: 31A That's right. I kind of -- it's vague there, but that 32has -- that has to be, sure. 33Q And ku didn't -- there wasn't a replacement found for him 34so I take it that you were the sole person that handled the 35fishery that year$ 36A Yeah, but it would be toward the end of -- it must have 37been towards the end of the season. Funny, I didn't put 38any date on that. Well, no, I can't -- I'm not so sure. 39Q Mr. Ironside left in 1952? 40A Hm hmm. 41Q Now, what I wanted to direct your attention to was in 42Document 422 0, which is not an exhibit, which is the annual 43report for 1953 and, Mr. Giraud, you'll see under the 44heading of, "Guardians," on Page 2 that Mr. R. J. Allen was 45employed as a guardian in the Hazelton district. Do you 46see that? It's about midway through the page. 47A I see that, yes. 93 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants) cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd 1 QDo you remember him: 2 AYes, I remember Joe Allen very well. 3 Qlt seems like he was only employed for that one year: 4 AI -- it's probably so. I'm not sure, but he was a good man 5just the same. 6 QYes. Do you see where it says he cannot -- 7 A"Cannot be employed due to age limit," that's right. 8 QRight. 9 AHe had been working previously, but not for me, as a lOguardian, I think, before I ever came there, that's why. 11 QDO yoU know when he worked up there? 12 AI don't know. I don't know. I know he worked for me 13but -- I'm sure he did because -- I'm sure he did. In the 14back of my mind, I'm thinking. 15 QOkay. Mr. Giraud, do you remember, was it you that hired 16Mr. Allen? 17 AFor that --at that period of time, yes. 18 QYou did? ". 19 AYeah. 20 QDo you remember -- did you train him or did you -- 21 AWell, as I said,'He had been --he had been working before. 221 think -- I wouldn't be quite sure of it, but I think he 23worked for Roy MacDonnell (phonetic) when Smithers was kind 24of looking after part of that Hazelton area, you see. 25 QCan you recall when that was? 26 AWell, it had to be before I went into the district. 27 QSort of before 1947: 28 AYeah, it had to be before that. 2 9 MR. RUSH: Do you have an extra copy of that, Ms. Koenigsberg? 30There are just one or two exhibits I would like to have 31marked and this could well be one of them. 32 MS. KOENIGSBERG:Hold on and I'll see. 33 MR. RUSH: Well, we can determine that in due course. 34 MR. MACKENZIE:I think we may have only one copy unless Marvyn 35has a copy. 36 MR. RUSH: We will try to get another copy. I'd like to exhibit 37that. 38 MS. KOENIGSBERG:Would you like to mark that as an exhibit? 39 MR. RUSH: Sure, maybe that can be an exhibit. We will mark 40Document No. 422 0 as the next exhibit. 41 42 (EXHIBIT 42: Annual Report for 1953 - Document No.(4220) 43 44 MR. RUSH: 45 Q Now, let me ask you about the next year. In 1954 your 46 annual report, which is Document No. 4221, which is Exhibit 47 18 - 94 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd 1 AHm hmm. 2 Q-- it indicates on Page 2, second item from the bottom of 3Page 2 that, 4"One guardian was employed in the 5 Hazelton area from June 1st until 6 October 31st who supervised the 7 Indian fishery and made routine 8 patrols in that area." 9 AThat's right. 10 QBut you don't say who he was. 11 ANo, but that was -- that was a man by the name of Bennett, 12Robert Bennett. I remember he came in. 13 QOkay. Well, that's what I was wondering because in the 14next year in -- well, it wasn't next year; it was the year 151ater in 1956,you make mention of a Mr. R. Bennett who was 16employed as a guardian? 17 AYeah, I guess probably I slipped in making my report, I 18don't know, but he worked for several years for me. I 19think he was still there when I left to go to Rupert. I'm 20not sure. 21 QWell, if you'll just look at Exhibit 25 which is 1844, the 22annual report for 1956, at the bottom of the page it says 23that, 24"Mr. Bennett was employed in the 25 Hazelton area to look after the 26 Indian fishery and make routine and 27 spawning ground patrols. His 28 services were satisfactory. He used 29 his personal car for patrols to 30 Kitseguecla, Glen Vowel and 31 Kispiox.* 32A Yes. 33Q I thought Mr. Bennett started with you in 1956. Do you 34remember when he started: 35A Well, I'm sure he must have started after -- I don't -- I 36didn't go without a man there. I'm sure h.must have 37started with -- let's see -- 38MR. RUSH: That's 4221. 3 9A Let's have a look and see. 40MR. RUSH: Do you need the exhibit number? It's Exhibit 18. 41MS. KOENIGSBERG: Oh, Exhibit 18. 42MR. RUSH: There is the previous one, 422 0, Exhibit 42. 43MS. KOENIGSBERG: This is the 1954 report. 44MR. RUSH: 45Q So Mr. Allen apparently worked as a guardian in the 46Hazelton area in 1953 but it doesn't indicate who worked as 47a guardian in 1954. 95 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd 1 AWell, I don't know where the slip-up is there; I can't 2explain it. I had a guardian thee anyway. 3 QThere was a guardian: 4 AYeah, there was a guardian. 5 QWas there a guardian all the time in the Hazelton area 6while you were the fishery inspector? 7 AI'm sure there was except maybe for -- what I was going to 8say, it might have been for a few dat one way or the 9other, you know. 10 QOr in the case of Mr. Ironside who retired near the end of lithe season? 12 AYeah, something like that. 13 QAs I understand your reports, Mr. Giraud, it appears to me 14that you could only have patrolled along the rivers as 15transportation permitted, is that right? 16 AIn the -- in the -- when I first went there, I had no 17vehicle and I had to make my way different ways back and 18forth along that river but eventually I did get a vehicle 19and I had my -- I could go whenever I wanted to. 20 QI guess what I'm getting at is that you were limited in 21.your ability to do the patrols by what transportation means 22you had available? 23 AThat's right. 24 QThe transportation at that time was difficult? 25 Alt was, by boat, and lots of places I walked but there was 26always -- you could get a ride somewhere or the other here 27or there up to one place. I can't remember exactly how it 28was done but it was done. 29 QOkay, and in one of the reports in 1955, you said that you 30and your guardian patrolled the river in your district as 31often as possible because of the limitations of 32transportation? 33 AHm hmm. 34 QIs that a fair assessment of that period in your ability to 35do your patrol? 36 Alf I put it in there, I guess it must have been. I -- 37 QAm I right in saying that you wouldn't have been able to do 38it, say, in 1955 as often as once a week? 39 AWell, the only way I could answer that, if I had my weekly 40reports, old weekly reports for that time. I haven't got 41them. I don't know how -- I went as often as I could. 42 QThat may have been once week or it may not have been: 43 Alt may not have been. Maybe twice in three weeks or 44something like that. 45 QYes, all right. 46 AI'm not so sure. 47 QNow, I also understand from one of your reports -- and 96 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd lmaybe I'll just show it to you. 2 MR. RUSH: Maybe you could refer Mr. Giraud to Exhibit No. 32 3which is 1967. 4 QDO you have it in front of you? 5 AYes. 6 Qlf you just look near the bottom of that, Mr. Giraud, just 7the sentence above the last paragraph of that, you'll see 8that it begins, "Weekly Inspections." DO you see where it 9says that? 10 AYes. 11 Qlt says -- this is a letter of February the 24th, 1958 and 12this is dealing with inspection of spawning grounds and 13it's over your signature and it says, 14"Weekly inspections can be made of 15 all fishing points during part of 16 the Indian fishery, but during 17 spawning times it just cannot be 18 done as time will not permit." 19 AThat's straight enough, I would think, because when you 20have -- some spawning ground trips might take you a week, 21hey: ..iou can't do two things at once. 22 QThere were too many other things to do to examine them once 23a week? 24 AYou had to make your spawning ground inspections, but that 25was the toward the end -- that's toward the end of the 26salmon fishing season ad the Indian fishery food fishing. 27That's toward the end of that time, you see. 28 QBut it's a very important time, isn't it, in terms of 2 9estimating the escapement? 30 AProbably the -- the way -- one of the ways we estimated 31escapement is what fish we found on the spawning grounds. 32You see, that all ties in. 33 QRight, it's important to get to the spawning grounds? 34 AOh, that's right, yeah. 35 Qlt would appear from this letter, at least, that you 36weren't able to do that on a weekly basis at that time 37because of all your commitments? 38 AI wasn't -- well, that was at the -- towards the tail end 3 9of the fishery when the spawning ground inspections had to 40be made. 41 QOkay, but this would be an accurate reflection of what 42happened in 1958? 43 AI would think so. 44 QA11 right. You told us that you were up the Babine River 45at one point in your testimony. Was the Babine River in 46your jurisdiction? 47 ANo, it was not. 97 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd 1 QAnd at one point in your testimony you told Ms. Koenigsberg 2that permits were given to Indian people at Indian fishing 3sites above Kispiox Village. Do you recall that: 4 ALet's have a look at that. 5 QA11 right, let me direct you to Document No. 1894. 6 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Exhibit 3: 7 MR. RUSH: Yes. 8 QNow, if you just --it looks --if you just review this -- 9my copy isn't very good but i'.suggests to me that the lOfishing permits that were granted in 1958 were permits for llsites no farther than three miles upstream from Kispiox? 12 AYes, I would think that would be right. 13 QIs it right to say that that was the limit of your northern 14jurisdiction on the Kispiox? 15 AWhat did I say there, above Kispiox? 16 QYes. I'll show you -- 17 ANo, I think I was referring to the Skeena River above 18Kispiox probably. 19 fAll right. 20 AThat wasn't the limit, but people didn't go there in those 21days. There used to be a big reserve up at the --on the 22mouth of the Babine before it run into Skeena but. there was 23nobody lived there at that time. There was just no reason 24to go there. 25 QOkay, so you didn't go up to Kisegas, is that -- 26 AI didn't go up there, no. There was nobody up.here; there 27was no need to go. . 28 MR. RUSH: That's spelled, K-I-S-E-G-A-S. 29 QWhat was the limit of your jurisdiction then north on the 30Skeena? 31 AI think at that time, I think my jurisdiction took in the 32headwaters of the Skeena but I never went there. 33 QYou never went up that far: 34 ANo. Flew over it a few times probably and that was all. 35 Qlt doesn't sound to me as though you went up on the Babine? 36 AWell, I didn't -- I didn't have any -- I didn't have any 37jurisdiction on the Babine; that was another fishery 38officer working out of Smithers. But I used to fly into -- 3 9odd times I flew into the Damdochax and walked down to see 40the spawning on fifth cabin lake and down through there. 410n my spawning ground inspections I went there. 42 QI guess what I would like to know is, am I right in saying, 43that you regularly patrolled the area of the Skeena north 44of Kispiox up to about three miles upstream as a regular 45patrol? 46 AWell, I didn't -- if I had a guardian, he used to work that 47part for me, he; but I didn't go there regularly. 98 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd 1 QAnd what I want to know is whether or not your guardian 2went there regularly? 3 AI would think he made -- if I remember rightly, he made 4trips there but I'm thinking a long way back and I can't be 5sure of that. 6 QOkay. Do you remember who the person was that was 7responsible for the Babine River fishery? 8 AThe Babine River fishery? 9 QYes, because you have just said that you did not, yourself, lOhave responsibility in your jurisdiction for that? 11 AWell, there was -- during my time there was different 12people. Their headquarters were in Smithers, hey, and I 13think about this time, I think a fish officer by the name 14of Elliott had his headquarters in Smithers. He was 15responsible for the Babine, and after that there was a man 16called Engelson and I don't know exactly -- 17 QHe did not report to you; either Elliott or Engelson did 18not report to you? 19 ANo, they reported to Prince Rupert. 20 QAnd you, of course, have no knowledge about whatever 21spawning estimates they were able to arrive at on the 22Babine River or on the Babine Lake: 23 AExcept what I got from them, I could get from them, but 24their reports went to Prince Rupert the same as I went to 25Prince Rupert and the supervisor put them together, hey? 26 QI see. Now, I want to ask you a little bit more about the 27Kispiox fishery and in particular the Kispiox steelhead 28fishery? 2 9 AHm hmm. 30 QDo you remember that you answered some questions of Ms. 31Koenigsberg about that? 32 AHm hmm. 33 QI think you said that the Indians used to fish the 34steelhead on the Kispiox in the wintertime: 35 AHm hmm. 36 QThat was your knowledge, wasn't it? 37 AHm hmm. 38 MS. KOENIGSBERG: I'm sorry, you have to say yes or no. 3 9 APardon? 40 MS. KOENIGSBERG: She can't record, "hm hmm," as well as, "yes 41or no." Just say yes or no, if you can remember. 42 MR. RUSH: Part of what we have to do is vocalize our answers. 43If you can say, "yes," that would be great. 44 AYes. 45 QI think you were answering yes to my question that the 46Indian people were fishing steelhead in wintertime on the 47Kispiox River? 99 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd 1 AYes, they did fish the odd time. They fished through the 2ice on the Kispiox River. 3 Qlt was your understanding that that was their practice to 4do that? 5 AYes. 6 QAnd I understand too that you agreed with that? 7 AI agreed with it, yes. 8 QAm I right to say that you understood this to be a 91ong-standing practice for the native people to be involved lOin tHis ice winter fishery? 11 AYes. 12 QAnd you considered it, didn't you, that it was their 13aboriginal right to be involved in that fishery: 14 AI thought that they had -- I didn't see any reason why they 15shouldn't fish there and.3 think I wrote the supervisor to 16that effect. 17 QThe reason I just I framed the question as I did, Mr. 18Giraud, is that in your Document No. 1851 which is Exhibit 1912, if you look at the middle paragraph, the large middle 20paragraph of Exhibit 12, about four lines from the bottom 21of that paragraph you say in your letter to Mr. Reid, 22"It is a point that could be cleared 23 up by a test case by the Game 24 Department but I'm inclined to go 25 along with the Indian and his 26 aboriginal rights." . 27 AYes, I guess I wrote that. 28 QWell, what I would like you to tell me if you can is 2 9whether or not, given that you believed there was a 30practice, a long-standing practice of Indian people there 31to fish the Kispeox river in the wintertime, that you 32considered it as their aboriginal right to do so: 33 ANow, you've got me in a spot. The Indians always got what 34fish they could in the Kispiox River in the wintertime 35until the Game Department got involved in it and they were 36the ones that got this bit, hey, but -- but if that's 37something they had been doing I couldn't see any reason -- 38what harm they were doing to stop them. 3 9 QBut at least in 1957 when you wrote this, you considered it 40an aboriginal right of their's to do that? 41 AProbably that's the word I used, probably. I didn't see 42any reason why they shouldn't, yes. 43 QAm I right in saying that the pressure on the Game 44Department was coming from the sports fishermen? 45 AThat's right. 46 QAnd those were the sports fishermen who were themselves 47taking a greater number of the steelhead on the Kispiox? 100 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd 1 AThey were taking quite a number, yes, but not -- later on 2in the winter they were taking them when the rivers were 3open and when the run was going through the Kispiox. 4 QA11 right. And is it your understanding that the sports 5fishing for steelhead on the Kispiox was increasing every 6year in the years through the middle 50's? 7 AYes. 8 QWhile you were in the fisheries inspector at Terrace, the 9steelhead fishery by the Indian people was allowed to lOcontinue, wasn't it? 11 AWell, certainly it was. There was no change made in it. 12The steelhead were taken in nets for salmon all along the 13river. 14 QI understand that. 15 AYeah, sure, and it continued on. 16 QA11 right. 17 AAs well as what little fishing there was through the ice in 18the wintertime. 19 QWhat I mean to say, is that there was no regulation or 20enforcement of any fisheries regulations to curtail that 21Kispiox steelhead fishery on the part of the Indian people? 22 ANot -- no, it wasn't that great though. I mean, it 23wasn't -- it wasn't as great to be doing any harm. 24 QMr. Giraud, I want to ask you about another area and it's 25one I've already touched on and that's your efforts at 26gathering information regarding the spawning estimates. 27Now, in reviewing your annual reports -- and I've gone over 28them when they were introduced and I've.gone over them 2 9again since as well as your spawning ground reports of that 30period -- you appear to be determining the number of 31spawner$.by whether there was more or less than the 32previous year, is that right: 33 AI just don't quite understand what you mean there. 34 QOkay, well, let me try to explain it. When you made your 35estimates of the spawners, that you estimated on the basis 36of whether in the year you were doing your counting, 37whether there was more or less from the previous year? 38 ANot necessarily. 3 9 QNo? How would you do it: 40 AWhen you go up on a spawning ground stream, you can section 41it off, and you get used to it quickly, get actual counts 42of the fish on there. I mean, it's -- you don't have to -- 43you don't have to guess. I mean, yoU can get a close 44count, a fairly close count. Section them off -- you know, 45in your mind, from this point to this point the's so 46many, and from this point to this point there's so many, 47and that's a thing that comes with a little bit of 101 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd lexperience but -- 2 QI'd just like you to look at one of your spawning ground 3reports for 1949 which is Exhibit 14? 4 AHm hmm. 5 Qlt's Document No. 416 6 AYeah. 7 QYou'11 see this report and it indicates to me, Mr. Giraud, 8that even if you take one of the -- the first stream at the 9Allister Lake location, again at Dock River, if you look at lOthe fourth column, you indicate intensity and comparison of llbrood year: 12 AYeah. 13 QAnd you seem to be measuring here by whether the numbers 14are medium, heavy, heavy/medium, light, and so on. Do you 15agree with that, that's what you're doing here? 16 AThat's right. 17 QYou're evaluating not by number but by strength or 18intensity as you've indicated? 19 AWell, Allister Lake, the spawning of Allister Lake comes 20from clear streams at the head of the lake and you can get 21a pretty good number, an actual number of the fish on 22there, hey? 23 QOkay. 24 AThere is some lake spawning that you can see working along 25the river, along the lake shore in the deep water, but you 26can't put a complete figure on that, no. 27 QWell, what about Barons Creek in Kispiox River, the third 28item down? 2 9 ABarons Creek? 30 QYes. 31 AWell, that's only a small little stream. 32 QYou have there, "heavy." 33 AYeah, but heavy -- let's see, "Barons Creek, Cohoe, Heavy, 34D," well, that's only a small, little creek, hey? 35That's -- hD" is what, three hundred fish or something like 36that, some small number, hey? 37 QDoes "A" mean a large creek or river? 38 A"A, B, C, D," that's the -- that's the -- actually, where 39the heck was I -- they've got an "F" up there -- those 40are -- you can be -- I can't remember exactly. .One to 41fifty'; fifty to a Hundred, a hundred to two hundred; these 42small little "A, B, C's," are figures like that. 43 QI see. All right. Well, you see -- let's go to the fourth 44creek identified on Exhibit 14 Burdock Creek (phonetic)? 45 aBurdock Creek. 46 Q"Location, Skeena River," and then you've identified the 47variety of cohoe pinks and pinks, and you identify, "heavy, 102 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd lmedium, medium," and then you indicate, "times 1946," or 2"times 1947," "times 1947:" 3 AWell, that's the times -- 4 QWhat does that mean? 5 AWell, that's -- these numbers here are what was -- that's a 6comparison this year to -- this is a comparison With -- 7what are we doing -- '49;.yeah -- that's a comparison to 81946, '47, '46, '47 and that's.he -- what was on those 9streams in that year. 10 QOkay. That's what I was asking you earlier is whether or llnot, really, what you were doing at least in the 1949 12spawning ground report was to compare the intensity with 13the previous year? 14 AThat's right. 15 QThat was the method you used? 16 AWell, that's right. That's where you got the -- where you 17put the intensity down, sure. 18 QOkay. 19 ASure. 20 QAnd it seems like -- 21 ABut those little figures save a lot of space with 500 or 221,000 or 10,000 in some places. So that's where those 23figures come in that way. 24 QI see. All right. It was the case though: wasn't it, that 25it was difficult to count the spawners at the spawning 26grounds: 27 AIn some instance it would be. Some instances an estimate 28without a count had to be made, hey, but in lots of places 2 9where the rivers -- small rivers were clear, you could 30count absolutely every fish. Some of the larger rivers you 31could get by counting sections. You could get a fairly 32accurate count; I'd say an accurate count. 33 QBut would you not agree with me that for the most part your 34spawning ground reports were estimates of the fish that 35were spawning? 36 ANot entirely. 37 QNo? 38 ASome streams there was, where you had to make an estimate, 3 9where you couldn't get a count, but you can't -- and these 40where we're looking at these small figures, yoU don't have 41to estimate there; you'd see. You'd count what you see. 42And those streams are small; you can hop across them. 43There is no reason why you can't count them. 44 QBut there were various reasons why you couldn't count the 45fish were there not: 46 AWeather conditions. 47 QYes? 103 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd 1 AHigh waters. 2 QAnd what were 3 AGlacial streams, yeah. 4 QPoor visibility? 5 AWell, that all causes poor visibility. 6 QPoor visibility, yes; glacial silt. 7 AGlacial silt, yeah. 8 QAnd was it not the case that in some cases it was too 9difficult to count fish on the big rivers? I mean, you've lOtalked mainly about the clear waters on the small streams. 11 AHm hmm. 12 QBut in terms of the counts on the big rivers, for example, 13the Skeena or the Kispiox, you had difficulty in doing 14those counts too? 15 AWell, there's not that much spawning in the Skeena River 16itself. There is -- the spawning is on tributaries, you 17see, and some of tH rivers like Lakelse River, could hold 18a million pink salmon but yet it's clear water; you can see 19from one end to the other. You can count off a section, if 20there's so many there and multiply -- I mean, you could 21call it a guesstimate if you want to; but it's the closest 22you could get to it without sitting there with a counter 23and counting individual fish. Actually, fence counts were 24made on Lakelse River by a research board during those 25periods of time and their figures were fairly close to what 26mine were. . 27 QNo doubt the fence counts were more accurate than almost 28any other method? 2 9 AOh, the only accurate method. Like, Babine Lake, there was 30a fence right across Babine River and every sockeye was 31counted coming through those gates there, yes. 32 QBut short of the fence count which you've identified were 33at Lakelse and at the Babine outflow into the Babine 34Lake -- 35 AHm hmm. 36 QA11 your other methods of counting were guesstimates? 37 AWell, I would say yes. The best estimate that you could 38make. As your experience grew, you got -- I think you -- 3 9you improved with it, hey: . . 40 QThe reason I was asking you about the larger rivers was 41because of one of the comments that you made in an annual 42report which is 1950: 43 AHm hmm. 44 QThis is your Document 1715, Exhibit No. 7. At the bottom 45of the page under, "pinks," you'll note in the last two 46paragraphs you say: 47"The total estimate on streams that 104 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd lcould be accurately checked was 2about 325,000 fish but this does not 3include the main Skeena River, the 4Kitsumkalum River or the Kispiox 5River." 6AThat's right. 7QThen you go on, 8 "These last-named rivers are large 9and condition of water make an lOaccurate estimate impossible but are llknown to carry a large number of 12spawners and the total escapement to 13the area could be double the figure 14of 325,000." 15AI think that's plain enough, isn't it? That's what it -- 16 I'm used to -- was used to doing that work and I think 17 that's the best I could do. 18QA11 that I was saying to you earlier was that it was 19 difficult to count the fish in the big rivers? 20AOh, some you couldn't. You had to estimate; there's no 21 doubt about that. 22QYes, okay. It was also true wasn't it, Mr. Giraud, that 23 you couldn't always get around to the spawning stream 24 because of the large numbers of ones that you had to get to 25 in your district: 26AWell, we did the most important ones. Some of smaller 27 ones, if we had to leave any, we left some of the smaller 28 ones. 2 9QAgain, I think you already agreed with me that some of that 30 had to do with the transportation that was available at the 31 time? 32ARight. 33QI think you've also said that your surveys were hampered by 34 high waters, is that right? 35AWell, sometimes you have heavy rains in the fall and you 36 have high water in these streams and you're stuck till the 37 water goes down. 38QAnd is it -- was it also the case that given the large 3 9 number of spawning areas, the spawning creeks, that you 40 didn't have time to get around to all of them every year: 41AThat's right. 42Q0kay. Was it also the case that you covered different 43 spawning streams in different years? 44AI don't understand that. 45QWell, if you didn't -- you weren't able to cover all of the 46 spawning areas or streams every year but you said a moment 47 ago that you covered some of the main ones? 105 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd 1 AYes. 2 QMy question is, did you cover different spawning streams in 3different years? Like, for example, in '56 would you cover 4Some spawning streams and in '57 would you cover different 5ones? 6 AA11 I can say is that we covered the most important ones. 7Some wouldn't be covered every year and some might be 8covered every second year or so. I'm not sure how that 9worked right now. You're kind of getting me a bit confused lObut -- 11 QThere were, I think you've said, several different types of 12spawning areas in the district. You've mentioned rivers 13and streams? 14 AHm hmm. 15 QThere were spawning lakes as well, weren't there? 16 AWell, there was spawning in some of the lakes but where 17there's spawning in the lake is where there's a spring 18comes up through the gravel which -- 19 QCools the water?. . 20 A-- which circulates the water through and provides oxygen 21for the eggs, hey: That's the only way where they will 22 survive. 23 QAnd just on the question of estimating spawning -- 24 AYes. 25 QAm I right to say to you that it was difficult for you to 26get to the spawning lakes to do your estimates there: 27 AWell, it might have been originally but later on we had 28aircraft to go on spawning ground inspections on all the 2 91akes, all that we could get into. 30 QWhen did you start the aircraft inspections, do you 31remember? 32 AOh, I can't remember exactly when that was. 33 QA11 right. I think you've agreed with me that the spawning 34estimates are estimates --or guesstimates I think you 35said -- and am I right to say that the accuracy of your 36guesstimates varied from species to species? 37 AI don't think so. I don't know why you say that, but I 38don=t think so. 3 9 QDid your -- I take it your estimates varied quite 40substantially from year to year? There were some years 41where there were quite large number of a certain species 42and then the next year quite a low number? 43 AYou could have variations, surely. 44 QMr. Giraud, was it part of your job to determine trends in 45the strength of the fish runs from year to year or was that 46part of the biologist's job in Prince Rupert? 47 AThe time we're speaking of, there was no biologist in 106 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd lPrince Rupert. The biologists were from the Fisheries 2Research Board and working around through the areas. Later 3on they did have a biologist there but not at that time. 4 QYour information was passed on to your supervisor in Prince 5Rupert -- 6 Alt was. 7 Q-- during the those years? 8 AI was. 9 QDo you know what he did with that information? 10 Alt was passed to the Vancouver office. Copies, I'm sure, llwent to the Research Board. 12 QRight, okay. Is it right to say that it was your 13understanding that what they did with that information was 14to determine if there were trends in the escapement; that 15was their job? 16 AThat's right. With a good escapement, you could probably 17have more fishing time in the cycle year than you would 18from a poor escapement and that was one of the yardsticks 19they used for regulating. But that was done from the 20Vancouver office, not -- yeah, mostly from the Vancouver 21office. 22 QIs that where the biologists were housed? 23 AEventually. 24 QWere there biologists in place in Vancouver with the 25Department of Fisheries in the period 1947 to '59 while you 26were on the Skeena district there? 27 AThey weren't there when I first went in but towards -- I 28think by the time I left there, definitely they were, sure. 2 9 AI can't remember exactly when they came on our staff. 30We depended on the Research Board biologists for quite some 31time. 32 QNow, I want to ask you some questions about your estimates 33of the Indian catches. In one of the documents Ms. 34Koenigsberg brought to your attention, was a document 35numbered 5694 which was Exhibit 2. This is a document 36covering the Indian fishing permits issued in the Terrace/ 37Lakelse in 1950. 38 AThat's the actual number -- the numbers and the names of 39the people that had their permits, yes. 40 QAnd as well, the places they said they were from? 41 AYeah, roughly. That's, actually, the village more or less 42where these people were at the time. They might not fish 43exactly right there at Glen Vowel. You couldn't all 44fish -- but they'd be scattered up and down the Skeena from 45Glen Vowel, hey? 46 QMr. Giraud, you didn't personally give out all these 47permits? 107 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd 1 ANo. 2 QYour guardian gave -- 3 AThe guardian give them out, yes. 4 QThen the information was passed back to you about who they 5had given them to? 6 AThat's right. 7 QDid you give out some of these permits? 8 AYes. 9 QThose permits that the guardian gave out in 1950 would be lOMr. Ironside in the Hazelton area: 11 AYes. 12 QAnd I take it you don't know how he gave these permits to 13the Indian people? You don't have knowledge of that, what 14he actually did? 15 AWell, I don't know. He was a local man around there and he 16knew everybody and I never questioned how he issued them. 17 QOkay. Now, there were other fishermen who were fishing in 181950 on the Skeena River system and in your district who 19didn't get permits? 20 Alt could be. 21 QYes. Now, just in terms of the Indian catches, I think you 22said in your earlier testimony that you would check the 23Indian nets from time to time? 24 AThat's right. 25 QAre you able to say -- let us pick one example year, or any 26average year -- how often you would check the nets, you 27personally? . . 28 AI couldn't put a figure on it. From time to time if I 29happened to be up the river, I'd have a look at them, 30that's all. 31 QAnd would that -- would you say that applied as well for 32your guardians? 33 AYes. They liked to get up the river while the fisherman 34was pulling up his net and then they could get an actual 35count of what he got that day. They couldn't do that with 36all of them, mind you, but that was one of the things. 37They knew the best fishing holes. 38 QWho knew the best fishing holes? 3 9 APardon? 40 QYou said -- 41 AThe guardians knew where the most fish were taken, hey, 42what fish were taken, to use it for comparison. 43 QYou certainly didn't check every set, did you? 44 ANo. 45 QOr you didn't check every landing? 46 ANo. 47 QYou couldn't do that? 108 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd 1A You couldn't do it; it couldn't be done. 2Q Mr. Giraud, the estimates of the Indian catches, when these 3were made, I would think it would be very difficult to 4check the whole of the fishery at one time. You can be at 5one place in the fishery but you can't check the whole of 6the fishery at any given time; I'm right about that: 7A That's right. 8e You would check certain parts of the fishery as you could? 9A That's right. 10Q And I take it another -- if I may put it this way -- lllimitation on the estimates you would have of the Indian 12catches, would be knowing the number of days that a 13fisherman, a given Indian fisherman, would fish? 14A It would all come into the picture all right. 15Q For example, your guardian, Mr. Ironside, might go to the 16Sealy Creek on one day and there would be a fisherman there 17but you wouldn't know how many days he'd been there 18beforehand? 19A He wouldn't be on Sealy Creek; it's only a little bit of 20a -- 21Q It'S too small: 22A Yeah, but he made his regular tours with his car, regular 23tours throughout the area, and he would be in several 24places in one day. 25Q Yes, but I guess what I'm just saying to you is that he 26wouldn't know when he went there how many days the 27fishermen had been there fishing: 28A Unless they told him. We would ask them. I mean, we were 2 9on fairly good terms with these people; we would talk to 30them. 31Q But it would depend on that, whether the person had said 32and whether the fisherman had told Mr. Ironside or yourself 33how many fish had been caught the previous day? 34A That's right. Some places -- some -- that was used. 35Q And it's true, isn't it, Mr..Giraud';.that the average catch 36in the Skeena varied quite significantly from location to 371ocation: 38A Oh, definitely. 3 9Q And as well from day to day: 40A Yes. 41Q And I think you also stated that one of the ways that you 42were able to estimate Indian catches was through counting 43how much fish was in a smokehouse that you visited? 44A at one time, before the Indians started canning fish, they 45smoked them, smoke-dried them, and they put them up in 46bales and they hung them up in the smokehouse and they kept 47them there. Well, you could go and count the number of 109 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd lbales and you could have a pretty good idea how many fish 2they had there, but you had to add some for what they used 3fresh and it was, as you would say, a guesstimate, but 4that's the best we had. We would ask them and some, if you 5asked them, you knew you got a straight answer; others you 6knew you didn't. So what? 7 QWell, asking I suppose -- asking someone how many fish they 8caught is like asking tHem how big the fish was that they 9caught, right? 10 ARight. 11 QSo it varied quite substantially among people as to what 12you were told? 13 ARight, it would. 14 QAnd I take it that that, as a method of getting reliable 15information, it isn't the best way of getting information 16by asking anybody how much they caught? 17 AWell, if there was any better at the time, we'd have used 18it but we didn't have anything better. 19 &Right. 20 AWe had to, in many instances, just depend on their word and 21if we -- if -- you had more or less to take it. They 22usually didn't tell you a number greater than they caught 23or they -- probably the figure they gave you was probably a 241ittle bit lighter. 25 QLess than: 26 AYou know, experience would tell you that. 27 QThis smokehouse method, I take it, had some problems with 28estimating the numbers of fish in a smokehouse? For 2 9example, you wouldn't know how many fish were in the day 30before or the day after that you had been at the 31smokehouse? 32 AWell, these fish were put up over their fires, the 331ittle -- their smoke in there, but I think probably that 34was to keep the flies away, more or less, but they dried 35there. Then they were put together in, oh, in might be a 36bale from here to there long. The fish were split and 37folded; they were only about that thick, and they were tied 38together and they were hung up in the top where the air was 3 9blowing through out and they were there for some time. You 40could count the number of bales and if you want to count 41the number of fish, well, you would get how much they had 42there then, but that wasn't the full answer because you 43didn't get the number that they ate every day. 44Q Or replaced every day? 45A Or replaced every day but -- 46Q Did you ever try?. . 47A The ones that were put up there were probably left there 110 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd ltill -- in the early day, it was left there till the 2trapping season and those dried fish were mostly taken on 3the trap line. 4 QThey were taken out on the trap line? 5 AMost of the dried fish was put up for trapping and it was 6used for dog food and for people food but after the canning 7came out, the canners, everybody got their own little 8canner and they canned their fish. 9 You're not saying that the smoking stopped? 10 ANo, no, because the old people and any that were going to lithe woods to trap, always took dog food which was smoked 12fish and it's good people food too. I mean, but that's -- 13it's very rich. .. 14 QYou tried some of that? 15 AI've eaten it myself. 16 Qlt's quite tasty, isn't it? 17 AYes, it is. 18 QAm I fair to summarize in terms of the way that you 19obtained the estimates for the Indian catches that this, 20again, was the best guesstimate that you could get? 21 AThe best we could do, yes. 22 QGiven the conditions that you were working in? 23 AYes. 24 QIs that right: 25 ARight. 26 el take it that it was difficult to compare your estimates 27from one year to the next on occasion? 28 AI'm thinking. I don't recall whether it was or not. I 2 9don't -- 30 QA11 right. 31 MR. RUSH: It's just after eleven, Mr. Giraud. DO you want to 32take a break? 33 AThat's fine and dandy; whichever you like. I'm all right. 34 MR. RUSH: Why don't we just have a break: 35 36 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED) 37 38 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED) 39 40 MR. RUSH: 41 QMr. Giraud, the document that's in front of you, Exhibit 2, 42indicates the number of Indian fishing permits issued by 43you and your guardian in the Terrace/Lakelse area in 1950 44and the number of permits that you issued varied from year 45to year after 1950, is that right? 46 Alf it -- if the list shows that, then it's true, it would. 47 QYes, it wasn't always the same every year: Ill GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd 1 ANo. 2 QAnd you noted that there were changes in the number of 3Indian people participating in the fishery. This is 4something that you say that you observed, do you remember 5that? 6 AI don't remember just where I said it, but I think it's 7true enough. People that went down to the canneries early, 8they didn't fish upriver, hey, and some years more people 9went to the canneries to fish than other years. That's -- lOthat would be one instance for it. And there could be llother reasons too; working away somewhere, not there. 12 QYes: 13 Alf they wanted a permit, they got it; that's all I know. 14 QYou've suggested that some people went down to the coast to 15work? 16 AThat's right. 17 QAnd that may have been a reason why there were fewer people 18participating in the upriver fishery: 19 ARight, right. 20 QWhat I wanted to find out from you is, how did you know 21that people went down to the coast to work: 22 Alf you asked the village where so and so is, they'd say, 23"Oh, they're down the coast, down the coast." The 24fishermen went down. They took their wives and children 25with them. So the women worked in the canneries and the 26men fished and a lot of them got their fish right from the 27cannery in cases and took home. 28 Q How do you know? 2 9 AI've seen the cases of fish unloaded off the train. 30 QOh, I see. When did you see that, do you remember? 31 AOh, I wouldn't hazard a guess of the date now, or time, but 321 have definitely seen it. 33 QDo you remember -- when you say that the people went down 34to the coast, did you ever have any specific numbers of the 35Gitksan fishermen, for example, who went to the coast or 36their wives that went to the coast? 37 AI don't. I never did have it on paper anywhere but that 38would cause for the fluctuation in the number of permits. 3 9 QYou never had any numbers about the number of Wet'sewet'en 40fishermen or their families? 41 ANo. 42 QAm I right, Mr. Giraud, in saying that the main way in 43which you came to believe that there were fishermen and 44their families at the coast was because you would ask for 45someone in a village and you would be told they're not 46there, they're at the coast: 47 AThat's right. 112 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd 1Q And from that you formed an impression that people were 2fishing in the commercial fishery and working in the 3canneries? 4A Right. 5Q Did you -- I take it from that you wouldn't know how long 6people We at the coast; you would just know that they 7were there: You wouldn't know when they went or how long 8they were there? 9A Each individual one, no, but you could -- at one time, they lOhad special trains taking them back up. 11Q One of the other things that you said, I think it was 12yesterday, was that Indian people who were able to earn 13money from logging would rather buy meat than fish in the 14fishery: 15A Oh, I think so. 16Q Now, how did you come to that conclusion? 17A They weren't as interested in the -- they had a pocket full 18of money; they weren't as interested in fishing as they had 19been. 20Q But how did you know that? 21A Well, I knew the fishermen and if I said, I went to the 22guardian and said, "Where's so and so" "Oh, he's away 23working. He's not fishing. He's not bothering to fish 24this year." They could buy anything with the money he 25made. He'd buy anything. I guess that was maybe put 26together, a conclusion put together or - - 27Q Well, isn't that really what happened, Mr. Giraud, that you 28assumed that if somebody was -- 2 9A I assumed that was -- 30Q -- if someone was earning money in the logging -- 31A Yes. 32Q That they would rather buy meat in the store? 33A Well, I think so, yes. 34Q That's your conclusion: 35A My conclusion, yes. 36Q I want to talk about the subject that came up in your 1948 37Annual Report --. 38MR. RUSH: -- which is Exhibit 4, Ms. Koenigsberg, Document No. 394218 regarding the loss rates of fish due to certain gear 40types. DO you have the Exhibit 4? 41MS. KOENIGSBERG: Yes. 42MR. RUSH: All right, let me just see if I can find a reference 43to that. 44Q Now, if you'll turn, please -- I think you already have -- 45to the middle of the page of .rage 3 on 4218, and you say 46here in this report, Mr. Giraud, and I'm quoting, 47"The Indian fishery at Hagwilget 113 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd 1 Canyon was kept under close 2 observation as it was felt that 3 there has been some loss to both the 4 Indians and to the spawning 5 population through the use of 6 gaffs for taking salmon at this 7 point." 8and then you go on, 9"salmon wounded by gaff that die 10 before reaching the spawning 11 grounds, even in small numbers, can 12 be considered wasted." 13Now, Mr. Giraud, my question to you is, were the losses 14counted at Hagwilget Canyon in 1948? 15A I don't think we put a number on it in 1948. I think 16eventually the Research Board did do something there, but I 17didn't, but the guardian that was at the Canyon could see 18it. They used gaffs without a barb. The fish would be 19coming up and they'd flip off and they'd go, they go. 20Q I think you're saying that the guardian observed some loss 21in the gaffing method? 22A Yes. 23Q Right, but is it not the case that there was no count -- I 24think you've agreed with me no count was kept of the loss? 25A I can't be sure now that any special count was made. 26Probably a man would be there. The guardian couldn't be 27there all the time or I wouldn't be there all the time. 28We'd see maybe one in three or one in four fish flip off 29that gaff, hey, when they were fishing. I don't know if 30you understand this, but the water is not that clear and 31it's very deep. A gaff is put on the end of a long pole. 32That pole could be forty feet long, hey, and it's put down 33 in that --in these eddies and there is a strig around a 34deal where the gaff is hooked into so it's firm, fairly 35firm, and then it's tied. Well, when you get that thing -- 36if that hook is to come loose so the fish dangles, rather 37than try to pull it up, well, as that comes up and the fish 38is flopping, no barb on the hook, they quite often got 39away. 40 QOkay, but what I understand from what you've just said, is 41that you would not be able to determine the percentage of 42those that did get away? 43 AI wouldn't -- you wouldn't have any exact number or exact 44percentage but it was considerable. 45 QWell, I just want to take you back to your words in 1948 46which said, "there was some loss to both the Indians," and 47that's not, "a considerable loss." 114 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd 1 AWell -- 2 QI mean, you're using two different words; that's all I'm 3saying here. 4 AWell, could be. 5 QA11 right. The other thing that I wanted to ask you is, 6that it's not the case, is it, that every fish that is lost 7when it has been gaffed, dies? 8 ANo, it's not -- that's -- that's true but it depends where 9they're gaffed. 10 QYes, what part of the body the fish is gaffed. 11 AThrough the body, they're done. A little hook in the tail 12isn't going to bother them, hey, or something like that 13but -- 14 QAnd there's virtually no way of knowing the survival rate 15of the fish once gaffed and lost, is there: 16 ANo, but you don't have to have it in black and white. You 17know that fish are being killed and if you can get away 18from that, you're saving some, are you not? 19 QOh, I want to ask you just about that and that is whether 20or not there are losses in every method of fishing; that, 21in fact, every conceivable method of fishing brings about 221osses: 23 AWe introduced -- went to the Fraser River and learned their 24system of dip netting and we introduced it at Hagwilget and 25Moricetown and they didn't lose any fish with these nets 26but they were a little bit awkward, the river was a little 27fast, and it was a little harder for them to operate one of 28them than it was for a little, slim, gaff pole and they 2 9wouldn't use them, okay? 30 QWhat I wanted to say to you though, Mr. Giraud, is that 31from your knowledge of the fishery -- and I'm talking here 32about both the inland commercial fishery -- 33 ARight. . . 34 Q-- and the sports fishery and the commercial fisheries -- 35that no matter what type of gear is used, there are los$is 36involved in the fishing? 37 AWell, I'll just give you an instance. They didn't kill any 38fish with those dip nets. If they flopped out, they were 39still alive. But with a gaff, sure. A gillnet, they could 40be choked in that and probably get off but that dip net 41was -- I don't see how a fish could get killed by just 42flopping out and back into the water. 43 QOkay. Would you agree with me that the fishermen -- that 44you observed anyway --or your knowledge of the fishery at 45Hagwilget Canyon before the fishing ceased at Hagwilget 46Canyon in -- what was it 1959 -- that those fishermen 47continued to use the gaff because it was the most effective 115 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd lfor them in terms of the cost and the effort? 2 AI think it -- probably it was -- physically it was easier 3for them. 4 QWhat about cost: I think you -- 5 Alf they learned to tie their oW -- of course, a gaff is 6just a piece of steel pounded out nd you do it by hand -- 71 mean, a gaff costs them next to nothing, but for a dip. . 8net it would have to be -- twine would have to be purchased 9and a few little rings and stuff like that. But they used 10them consistently on the Fraser. 11 QYes. I understand that there were two gaff sites in the 12Hagwilget Canyon during your period as the fishery 13inspector? 14 AThey fished on both sides of the river at Hagwilget Canyon. 15 QRight. 16 AThey fished on both sides, and it wasn't just only one 17side. You could see two or three men, two or three people 18on the side of the canyon. 19 QBut there was also net fishing in Hagwilget Canyon? 20 AThere -- if there had been, it was probably a little, short 21pole and a pole sticking out, but it wasn't a general 22thing, it wasn't a general thing. 23 QDid you see net fishing at Hagwilget? 24 AI think there was probably some a little bit lower down in 25the eddy out of that fast water. 26 QMy understanding is that there are two net fishing sites on 27the Hagwilget Village side of the canyon: 28 AHm hmm. Well, that's where -- 2 9 QDoes that accord with your knowledge? 30 AThat's where we wanted to get them to use the dip nets and 31they didn't. 32 QNow, I wanted to ask you about the pinks. You apparently 33reported in some of your annual reports that there were a 341oss of pinks. Did you your$elf count the loss o pinks 35that you say occurred in the 50's? 36 ANot individually, no. 37 QDid you have an idea yourself as to the numbers of pinks 38tat were migrating up the Bulkley in the 50's? 3 9 AThere wasn't a big run of pinks in the Bulkley. There was 40some fish there but a lot of them didn't make it beyond the 41canyon. 42 QOkay. 43 AThe main pink run was in the Skeena itself. 44 QRight, and the pinks, of course, Mr. Giraud, I understand 45that there was no information that you or the Department of 46Fisheries had concerning whether or not the loss of the 47pinks was a threat to the species; that you had no 116 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd lknowledge at all whether or not there was a threat to the 2species by the loss of those pinks? 3 AI could say probably it wasn't a -- the loss was not that 4heavy that it would cause any great influx in, you know, up 5and down in that fishing, but fish that are killed and not 6used, I believe they're wasted. That's what -- I didn't 7believe in waste. That's probably my reason for saying 8that. 9 QDO you know what the commercial catches of pinks were in lOthe 50's? 11 AI couldn't -- 12 QDo you know even in general terms? I'm not asking you 13 specifically. 14 Alt would depend on an odd year and an even year and there 15were some some big pink catches in the even years. I 16wouldn't put a figure on it, no. I worked on that coast 17for a time too but I couldn't put -- I couldn't put a 18figure offhand. .1 19 QThe other thing I wanted to ask you, just as a general 20question, is it not the case that where net fishing is 21involved that frequently there are catches involving fish 22which you don't intend to catch? You may be fishing for 23sockeye, for example, and catch springs: In other words, 24it often is the case and it's part of the net fishery that 25you catch in the net a non-targeted fish? 26 AOh, that's true, both in the commercial fishery and Indian 27fishery. 28 QI mean, that's part of the case of any fishery that uses a 29net, isn't it? 30 AThat's right. The gillnets are selective to a certain 31extent for size but they have a small fish in some one 32species and a large one in another and, you know, you can 33get them all. 34 QA11 right. I want to ask you about a slightly different 35area now, Mr. Giraud. 36 You participated in some meetings with the Hagwilget 37Village people in Hagwilget concerning the blasting of the 38Hagwilget rock? 3 9 AI believe I did. 40 QDoes that -- were you one of the main spokespeople for the 41Department"f Fisheries: 42 ANo, I believe that Mr. Whitmore himself from Vancouver was 43at some. I wasn't the main, the main -- 44 QYou attended some of those meetings? 45 AI attended some of the meetings. 46 QMr. Whitmore, he was director of the Pacific area: 47 AThat's right. 117 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd 1 QAnd do you agree with me that as a result of the blasting 2of the Hagwilget rock, that the Indian fishery in Hagwilget 3Canyon ended? 4 AOh, it didn't end completely, no, but it could have slowed 5it down; it could have slowed it down. 6 QYes? 7 ABut prior to the blasting of those rocks, well, a lot of 8fish were wasted there, killed, because they couldn't get 9through, hey? 10 Well, just let me ask you -- 11 AThe Research Board did all the work on that; I didn't. 12 QYou didn't, yourself, after 1959 monitor the fishing in the 13Hagwilget Canyon: 14 ANo, no way. 15 QIs it fair to say that you would not be able to tell us 16accurately what the character of the Indian fishery was in 17the Hagwilget canyon: 18 AAfter 1959? No, not after I moved to Rupert. 19 QNow, do you know that there was also a decline in the 20sockeye fishery that occurred in the mid-50's that led to a 21substantial reduction in the sockeye runS up the Bulkley? 22Were you aware of that? 23 AI don't recall it personally because I was not there. I 24wasn't reporting on it so I wouldn't know. 25 QBut during these meetings in Hagwilget concerning the 26blasting of the Hagwilget rock, it is your recollection, 27isn't it, that the Indian people at Hagwilget did not want 28to relocate their fishing sites out of the canyon? 2 9 AYes, I suppose so. If I wasn't there, I've got to go by 30what -- 31 QWell,..3 just wanted you to look at a document which is -- I 32don't think it has been exhibited. . . 33 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Maybe I should say here, since we have just 34broken the momentum anyway, that my failure to object to 35any line of questioning is, as in your case, not to be 36taken I might not object at trial, but I don't want to stop 37the commission. 38 MR. RUSH: Good. 39 QDocument 1955, June 28th, 1960 letter, Mr. Giraud, did you 40see this -- have you seen this letter before? It's 41addressed.to the Deputy Minister of the Department of 42Fisheries, "Re: The Special Measures on the Bulkley River 43Sockeye Runs," and it's dated June 28th, 1960. 44 AI may have seen a copy of it. I don't recall. 45 QOkay. I'll tell you why I'm asking about it. If you just 461ook at the minutes of the meeting that are attached to 47this letter, you'll see the second document in line is, 118 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd l"Minutes of Meeting held at Lakelse Station," and you are 2one of those persons listed as being present. Do you see 3that? Do you have that? 4 AYes. 5 QThat's dated June 2nd, 1960: 6 AHm hmm. 7 QSo I thought you might have some knowledge of this. Does 8this ring a bell with you, this meeting? Just --do you 9remember the meeting? . . 10 AYeah, I remember the meeting. 11 QOkay. 12 AI can remember that meeting. We had a hotel there at the 13Hot Springs. 14 QWhat I wanted to ask you was, do you recall the Indian 15people expressing that they did not want to move their 16fishing sites to locations that belonged to Gitksan 17fishermen? 18 AWell, they wouldn't have expressed those feelings to me 19because I wasn't there at the time. 20 QOkay. Well, this is -- 21 ABut Engelson and Elliott and Gelley were in that area at 22the time. They were the ones that could answer that. But, 231 mean, they didn't -- didn't come to me with it because I 24was in Rupert, hey? 25 QA11 right, I understand that. Let me ask you to look at 26Page 2 of DOCUMent 1955. Do you have that: 27 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Yes.. 28 AI think so. 2 9 MR. RUSH: 30 QJust let me refer you to this if I can. It says in the 31second paragraph, and I'm quoting: 32"While reasonable quantities 33 of spring and cohoes -- " 34 AI just want to see the signature on this. Yt, go ahead. 35 Q h-- and steelhead still continue to 36 b% available to them, they emphasize 37 their immediate loss of sockeye of 38 which unquestionably they have made 3 9 predominant use in earlier years. 40 The discussion in the minutes of the 41 New Hazelton meeting on June the 42 3rd, will show their reluctance to 43 proceed a distance of possibly three 44 or four miles to the Skeena River 45 proper where they could easily 46 obtain their sockeye salmon needs 47 from the large rehabilitated runs 119 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd 1 proceeding to the Babine system." 2Now, I just want to stop there. DO you recall a reluctance 3on the part of Indian people to move their fishing sites 4down to the Skeena: 5 AI wasn't there. 6 QOkay. 7 AAt those years, I wasn't there. I was working out of -- 80ut of Prince Rupert office and on the commercial fishery 9down there and I wasn't there. I might have heard it from lOsomebody, but I just am not in a position to say. 11 QOkay. Let me go on to the next sentence. It says, 12"This reluctance stems from old time 13 traditions and customs prevailing 14 amongst the Skeena Indian tribes and 15 while the Indians of this area 16 generally have changed their way of 17 living in the past century in 18 virtually all major considerations, 19 a rigid adherence still persists in 20 the observance of some of these 21 earlier customs and traditions 22 despite the efforts of the church, 23 the Department of Indian Affairs, 24 etc." 25Now, what I wanted to ask you, Mr. Giraud, was it your 26experience when you were the fishery inspector on the 27Skeena River that there was an ownership of fishing sites 28by Indian people fishing the Skeena River? 2 9 AWell, I would say that when I was on the Skeena the permits 30were issued to people to a fishing site. Now, I would say 31that during that time probably the same people used that 32site every year, but the Bulkley I don't know anything 33about. 34 Qlt's true though, is it not, that there was, as you've 35said, a practice of certain families or certain people 36using fishing sites, the same fishing sites, year to year? 37 AYes. 38 QAnd did you know some of these people using those sites to 39be chiefs? 4 0 AOh, I don't know. I don't know. 41 QOkay. Did you know whether or not for other people to use 42those sites their permission had to be obtained? 43 AI don't know. 44 QBut you did know, did you not, that those sites were passed 45down from generation to generation? 46 AI think -- I think they must have been. I don't have any 47definite proof, but I think they must have been. It could 120 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd lbe true. 2Q An example of one of those sites that you know about is 3Wilson Creek, is it not? 4A Yes. 5Q And there is a -- did you know about the -- what is known 6as a, "house system," among the Gitksan people? 7A Not -- I don't know -- if you go a little further along, 8maybe.I'll -- . . 9Q Did you know about a clan system organizing their 10community? 11A No, not necessarily, no. 12Q Have you ever heard of that, "clans," in relation to Indian 13people: 14A Well, I've heard of the Wolf Clan and the Bear Clan and 15these clans, yes. 16Q Okay. Is that just general knowledge or did you hear about 17it when you were there working as a fisheries inspector? 18A No, I was a kid along that Skeena river. I mean, my dad 19worked at Cedarvale and I knew a lot of the young Indians 20there and I knew they were kind of proud of which clan they 21belonged to and that's the way I know it. 22Q I see. 23A Not from my fishing experience. 24Q But before, from before that? 25A From before, yeah. 26Q And did you know that% certain clans owned certain of those 27fishing sites that you -- 28A I don't know whether they owned them. I don't know what 29title they had to them if they did own them. I never saw a 30title. 31Q Now, Mr. Giraud, when you were working as a fisheries 32inspector from 1947 to 1959, you knew that Indian people 33sold their fish that they caught in the Skeena? 34A Some of them did, yes. 35Q And you also knew, I think, that they traded the fish? 36A Yes, some of them did. 37Q And also that they bartered the fish? 38A Some of them did, yes. Not all of them. 3 9Q No, but you knew that it went on? 40A It went on, yes, it did. 41Q Do you know whether it was extensive, this practice of 42selling or bartering or trading fish: 43A I can't say how extensive it was, I can't say, but I know 44it went on to a certain extent. 45Q I think one of the ways that it went on was by people 46fishing and providing fish to the relatives and to their 47immediate families? 121 GIRAUD,V . H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd 1 AOh, definitely. That could be -- that could be true. 2 QYou were aware that that was -- 3 AThere was lots of instances wHere a younger man would 4provide some fish for the older people. 5 QAnd you permitted this to happen, did you not, as the 6fisheries inspector: 7 AOh, yes. 8 QAnd I wanted to ask you if -- 9 AI wouldn't say, "permitted." I closed my eyes to it more lOor less, hey? 11 QYou did that, I take it, because when the exchanges were 12going on you felt that this wasn't altogether a bad thing? 13 ABetween Indians it wasn't. 14 QWould it be fair to say -- sorry -- 15 AI didn't think it was between Indians. If a son wanted to 16give his poor, old father some of his catch, so what? 17 QIs it fair to say, Mr. Giraud, that you, in fact, did 18not -- while you were enforcing the regulations, did not 19oppose the exchange or sale of river-caught fish among 20Indian people? 21 AAmong the Indian people, no. No, if they were legitimate 22Indian people; not that much. 23 QAnd were you aware as well of the catching of jack springs 24at Hagwilget and the sale of those to people in Newtown, 25non-Indian people in Newtown? 26 ANo, I was not. 27 QYou were aware, however, that there was some sale of 28Indian-caught fish to non-Indian people? 2 9 ADefinitely. Wherever there was a fishery there was some 30amount of that, yes. 31 QDid you know if there was Indian trade among peoples from 32different parts of the northwest, like, different Indian 33groups: 34 ACould have been a trade in certain things. I can remember 35when I was - - as I say, this is before I was at 36fisheries --'that the Indians from Cedarvale would send 37those salmonella berries down from the coast and what they 38would get back from it, I don't know. I know they were 39sending it to friends and relatives down there. There was 40that kind of thing. 41 QThere was a trade between the Indians at Cedarvale and 42Indians on the coast? 43 AYes, and the trade was probably salmonberries for seaweed 44or something, but there was -- yeah. 45 QDid you know if there was any.trade of fish or berries with 46the Nishga people? 47 AThe Nishga's -- I don't know. Nishga, that's the Nass, 122 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants) cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd IRiver, hey? 2 QYes. 3 AWell, I didn't have that much. While I was a fishery 4officer, I didn't go to the Nass, hey, but when I was Ssupervisor for a couple of years, I guess the reports came 6across my desk but I can't say offhand. 7 QWhen you referred about the trade with the people on the 8coast, you meant the people down at Rupert, did you? 9 AYeah. Now, that might have been that somebody was sending lOsomething down to their relative that was down working at lithe canneries at the time, back and forth, but there was a 12certain amount of -- 13 QOf exchanges back ind forth: 14 AYeah. Could be between families or could be between 15relations, but I have no idea. 16Do you know, Mr. Giraud, whether or not there was exchange 17of fish between Indians and the non-Indian or white 18families in Hazelton? . 19 AI'm sure there was but I had no -- I wouldn't get up and 20swear to it on the Bible, but I''.sure there was a certain 21amount. 22 QThe reason I'm asking this is that my information is that 23in that period there was a fair degree of exchange of fish 24with older white families who were residents of Hazelton: 25 AI wouldn't be surprised. 26 QAnd that it was known fairly widely? 27 Alt wasn't known by me but -- one other instance, I'll tell 28you about that. Mr. Tomlinson was at Cedarvale. His 2 9family had been on a farm there for -- gosh, his father had 30been kind of a minister for the Indians there. Well, he 31had -- I worked there as a kid in the hay field and he had 32sockeye for dinner many times, so I know. 33 QWhat was his name? 34 ATomlinson; he was the Reverend Tomlinson. But he served-- 351 had sockeye from the table when I was helping him make 36hay when I was a kid and I know he didn't catch it himself. 37 QOkay. I just wanted to return to one area of questions 38that I neglected to ask you concerning gaffing. It has to 39do with the origin of gaffing and it's my understanding 40that you believed that the Department of Fisheries 41introduced gaffs to the Indian people in Hagwilget, is that 42right? 43 AI don't -- I don't know who introduced it; I didn't. 44 QNo, I understand that, but before your time? 45 AI don't know where -- I can't remember now if -- where -- 46how that came in, where it came in. Some white.person Hid 47to show them how to make a gaff, I mean the way they were 123 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd lmade. I mean, they had to have the steel and there's no 2trick to making a gaff, but I don't remember that the white 3people introduced them. 4 QJust bear with me. I'm just trying to find a document Sreference that I need. 6 Just on that point about the origin of gaffing, Mr. 7Giraud, in Document No. 1955 which is, I believe, an 8appendix to the minutes of the meeting that was held at 9Lakelse on June 2nd, 1960 and includes a resume prepared by lOyourself, I wanted to draw this Appendix A to your llattention.DO you have it in front of you? 12 AYes. 13 QYes, it's the second page of that that I would like to draw 14your attention to and, in particular, the middle paragraph 15or the fourth paragraph down, and I want to draw to your 16attention the second last sentence here when you're 17referring to the traps and gaffing and here you say, and I 18Quote, 19 *I understand that the Department of 20 Fisheries, to ensure an equal 21 division of fish at these places, 22 abolished the use of traps and 23 introduced gaffing. I have not been 24 able to find anything in our records 25 to substantiate this but was 26 told of it by one of our retiring 27 fisheries officers." 28Was that a correct statement, to your recollection? 29 A I must have believed it at the time or I wouldn't have 30 written it, but I don't remember it now. 31 Q You would go by what you'd written there, would you? 32 A I would think so. I don't know which fisheries officer it 33 might have been. It might have been J. Roy MacDonald but 34 I'm not sure. 35 MR. RUSH: What I'd like to do is, since he cannot identify all 36 of this document, I would like to introduce Appendix A. If 37 you feel that the whole of the minutes needs to go in, I'm 38 happy to do that but if he can identify Appendix A, I would 3 9 seek to put in those two pages as the next exhibit. 40 MS. KOENIGSBERG:Perhaps the entire Appendix A can go in as 41 being his documents. 42 MR. RUSH: That's fine. I'll have that marked as the next 43 exhibit, please? 44 45 (EXHIBIT 43: Appendix "A" to Minutes of Meeting, 46 June 2, 1960 - Lakelse) 47 124 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd 1 MR. RUSH: Appendix A to the minutes of the meeting at Lakelse 2prepared by Mr. Giraud is a two-page document and that's 3what has been marked as Exhibit.43. 4 QMr. Giraud, when you were the supervisor of the Skeena 5District at Prince Rupert, did a Mr. Morris Bogart report 6to you? 7 AYes. 8 QDid you know Mr. Bogart? 9 AYes, I knew Mr. Bogart. 10 QHe was a fisheries officer in Terrace, wasn't he? 11 AFisheries officer in Terrace, right. 12 QAnd he was required to report by way of memorandum to you? 13 ARight. All his reports came through my desk. 14 QOkay, and I want to ask you, if you would, to just refer to 15two documents, 2174 and 2175. 16 MR. RUSH: These have not been listed as exhibits and if you 17have extra copies, I would be grateful if you would put 18those to Mr. Giraud. 19 MS. KOENIGSBERG: 2174 and 2175? 20 MR. RUSH: Yes, that's right. 21 QDid you receive a copy of that document, 2174, Mr. Giraud? 22 AI've got it here now. I imagine that -- 23 Qlt's addressed to you: . 24 AI imagine so, yes. 25 QThis is dated November 14th, 1973 -- this is 2174. 26Actually, both documents are dated.In the same day. Did 27you receive both 2174 and 2175 when you were the supervisor 28of the Skeena District: 2 9 AYes, I guess so. The office of the District Supervisor 30received them anyway; I imagine they did. 31 QApparently, in respect to document 2174, Mr. Bogart 32reported to you that, 33"Some of the band counsel members 34 will not accept a permit on the 35 grounds that the Fisheries Service 36 does not have jurisdiction to 37 regulate their fishery." 38Do you see that at the bottom? 3 9 AI see that at the bottom. 40 QDo you have a recollection of that report to you? 41 AI can't remember what action we took on it. I just 42don't -- 43 QBut yoU remember getting the document? 44 AI must have, I guess. I can't remember. 45 QOkay. 46 AI'm not trying to be funny or anything like that but -- 47 QA11 right. And similarly with regard to 2175, it again is 125 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd laddressed as a memorandum to you from Mr. Bogart regarding 2the Indian food fishery meeting at Moricetown in 1971. DO 3you see that: 4A Yes. . :d in the Prince 5Q Okay. And it appears that it was received in the Prince 6Rupert office on November 23rd. Presumably that's 1973? 7A Well, I don't remember either one of them but it's a 8possibility that I, yoU know -- 9MR. RUSH: I'm going to have these marked as an exhibit. 10MS. KOENIGSBERG:Yes. DO yoU want to mark this copy? 11MR. RUSH: Yes, if I may. Can those be marked? 2174, I guess 12would be 44 and 2175 would be 45. 13 14(EXHIBIT 44: Memorandum dated November 14, 1973 - 15 Mr. Bogart to Mr. Giraud - Document No. 2174) . 16 17(EXHIBIT 45 - Memorandum dated November 14, 1973 - 18 Mr. Bogart to Mr. Giraud - Document No. 2175). 19 20 MR. RUSH: 21 QNow, I'm just returning those two documents to you, Mr. 22Giraud. I didn't draw your attention to Exhibit 45, 2175: 23but I jUSt wanted to draw to your attention paragraph 24number three where it says, "When the meeting took place at 25 26 Moricetown, their spokesman, Mr. Ray 27 'Jones from Kitseguecla informed us 28 that they did not recognize the 2 9 Fisheries ACt and they would not 30 discuss their fishery with us." 31 DO yoU see that? 32 A I see that, yes. 33 Q Do you remember that advice coming to you from Bogart: 34 A I don't remember it now, at this time, but it's long ago. 35 I jUSt don't remember. 36 Q There were Indian fishermen who rejected the permit system? 37 A There have been from time to ti[ne. 38 Q That's something that you recall from when you were -- 39 A An odd time it has happened, or when they don't need i 40 permit or something I've heard that, but they usually came 41 out and got one, hey? 42 Q Or you took one to them? 43 A Yeah, we took one to them. When you took it to them, 44 "There's your authority to go and fish; go and fish." 45 I mean, I never saw one tear it up and say, "To heck with 46 you," or anything like that, if you know what I mean. 47 Q Yes, but there were people who said that the fishing was 126 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd lsomething that was their right and that wasn't required to 2be regulated? I think you said that yesterday. 3A I think some of them probably thought that, but that was 4their idea. It was the Department's idea to regulate and 5that was their idea. There was always conflict, hey: 6MS. KOENIGSBERG: Maybe we're getting to a point where you might 7break now: 8MR. RUSH: Yes, I can stop now. 9 10(PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED) 11 12(PROCEEDINGS RESUMED) 13 14MR. RUSH: 15Q Mr. Giraud, let's see if we can finish my questions of you. 16It shouldn't take too much longer, but I want to ask a few 17questions on the evidence that you've already given 18regarding your trap line experience? 19A Yes, okay. 20Q Now, you told us that you worked a trap line at Driftwood 21creek in the 30's: 22A Yes. 23Q And that you spent one or two seasons there? 24A One or two. I'm not sure whether it was one or two, no. 25Q Was that the first time that you trapped? 26A Well, I had done a little monkeying around trapping before 27that, yes, and I had a very good teacher by the name of 28Joseph Gelley. 29Q Gelley? 30A Yes. 31Q This was the first time that you'd worked a line with him: 32A With him, yes. 33Q You told us that at the same time you had a trap line at 34Grouse Mountain in Walcott? 35A Well, we worked the two of them. 36Q Yes, and you said you alternated between the two: 37A Well, we'd go to one line one week and the other the next 38week. 3 9Q Why did you do that? 40A Well, you take mid-wintertime especially; the fur is not 41moving that much and anything that's in the trap, it's 42frozen. You know, you don't lose anything by it, hey? 43Q Right, and you also don't over-harvest? 44A Well, I guess you could say that but we weren't worried 45that much about it. But we didn't take that much off 46either one of those lines. Our biggest catch was coyotes 47in the Walcott area, snared coyotes. 127 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd 1 QTo your knowledge, Mr. Giraud, was it common for trappers 2to alternate between two different lines like you and Lou 3were doing: 4 AI had never heard of it before but we were both registered 5and we travelled together. I don't think there was 6anything wrong with it. I don't know. If there was, the 7game warden didn't object. 8 QNo, I wasn't suggesting there was anything wrong with it; I 9just wondered if you knew of other trappers doing it? 10 AI don't know of any others, no. 11 QLet Re ask you about the trap line that you had up at, I 12guess, north of third cabin on the Telegraph Line? 13 AThe Telegraph Line, yes. 14 QYou mentioned Moses Stevens: 15 AYes. 16 QDid Moses live at Slamgeesh Lake or at the outlet to 17Slamgeesh Lake? 18 ANo. 19 QWhere did Moses live: 20 AI never did get down to his his place but he lived -- his 21trail went down to the Skeena -- wait till I get this -- 22about halfway between second cabin and Kuldo. 23 QKuldo? 24 ANow, wait a minute, I've got to think -- 25 QA map has been placed in front of you WHich is -- 26 AWell, where are we? I don't know if it's on this one or 27not. First cabin -- no, it's not on this one. 28 Qlt's not on that mp, is it? 2 9 ANo, it's not. I thought it was on there. But I didn't -- 30never saw i trap put out by Moses Stevens but he was 31always --he was -- in the wintertime, he was there 32especially, I think, down below the trail. And he wasn't 33on our part of the trap line; he was just south of ours and 34when we would run into Moses is when we had probably taken 35some fur out in the middle of winter and then going back in 36with some supplies or when we were going in. Now, he 37stood -- when we were there, he stood on the trail, hey, 38and if .He thought we had some good grub, he was very 39friendly; "Have you got something for me?" Well, if we did 40-- well, if we didn't have anything, he'd shake a stick. 41b was an old, old gentleman. He wasn't -- 42 QWas anybody else there with him? 43 AI never saw anybody. I thought that maybe he had a wife or 44somebody else down below. He wasn't -- he couldn't have, I 45don't think, survive there on his own. He must have had 46somebody with him, but I never saw them. It was off the 47trail and it wasn't our line and I had no business going 128 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd ldown there to find out especially if some -- I might not 2get such a good greeting if I went down there. 3 Qlsn't it the case, Mr. Giraud, that you knew you wouldn't 4get such as good greeting because Moses trapped up where 5you were trapping? 6 AHe never had a trap along our part of the line when I was 7there and afterwards, when Gelley was there, I'm sure he 8didn't. That would be - - from where he was, i would be -- 9there would be quite a w miles to get even to third . lOcabin, hey: And if he was up there, he couldn't get out of 11there without leaving a track where we would see him. So I 12don't know where he trapped. If he did trap, he could have 13gone across the river somewhere up there, but I don't know 14where he trapped. 15 Okay. I understand Mr. Giraud, that you trapped that area 16for one season? 17 Alf it was one, it was one. I'm not sure if it was one or 18two. I know we did one -- no, we did two. 19 QYou did two seaons there, did you: 20 AYeah, we did two seasons there. 21 QAfter that you went and worked at Red Rose? 22 AYes, I guess so. 23 QAnd my understanding is that after the war, Moses Stevens 24complained to the Department of Indian Affairs about the 25presence of your registered trap line on a place where he 26trapped. DO yoU know anything about that? 27 AThat was after my time. I don't know. I can't answer that 28because I wasn't trapping there at the time, after the war. 29Marty Allen was Gelley's partner and I don't know -- they 30never told me that they had any fuss with --. . 31 QSo you don't know what happened after you left? 32 ANo, I have no way of saying. 33 QDid Mr. Gelley ever tell you that he sold his trap line 34there? 35 AHe sold his trap line to the Department of Indian Affairs. 36 QDO yoU know what they did with it? 37 AI don't know what they did with it. I guess Blackwater 38probably got some of it; he was on the north end, and Moses 3 9probably got some on the south end. I don't know. I 40haven't a clue. I don't know whether Gelley knows. He 41must know but I never asked him. 42 QWhen Moses spoke to you, did he speak to you in English? 43 AYes. 44 QYou've said that he appeared to be angry with you? 45 ASometimes he was angry, but if he thought we had a piece of 46moose meat or something that he -- he talked very gently. 47"Why don't you give me this," and "Why don't you give me 129 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd lthat?" He was, you know, an old man. I didn't think it 2was anything out of the ordinary but he did sometimes rave 3a little bit at us. 4 QAnd that's when you went by? 5 AYeah. 6 QThat was when you were what going up to third? 7 Alt would probably be when we went out in the middle of 8winter and put on some -- get some supplies, getting short 9of this and that, and probably on the way, and sometimes I lOwould just go out, sometimes Gelley would go out, but llthat's the only time we saw him. I don't remember. 12Probably he was there when we went in with the pack horses 13in the fall but I don't recollect that because, you know, 14you're moving, hey? 15 QDid it occur to you, Mr. Giraud, that Mr. Moses Stevens was 16yelling at you or waving his snow stick at you because you 17were on his trapping area: 18 AThe only thing I understood Moses to say, "Why don't you 19have some meat for me:" or, "Why don't you have this for 20me:" That's the only thing I ever got out of it. 21 QYou didn't understand anything else from him? 22 AHe never, in plain English said, You're trapping my trap 231ine." We were, oh, fifteen miles north of where he lived 24and I hadn't a clue who owned the land south of third 25cabin; I didn't have a clue. If Moses owned it, we weren't 26bothering it anyways. We were from --we were going north 27from third cabin. I know when Gelley put up the money 28to -- put up the trap line for sale, I know the Indian 29Affairs bought it. I don't know why or where but he 30figured they had enough money. They didn't pay that much 31for it anyways. 32 QYou can't recollect whether there were any young children 33there with Moses when you went by on those occasions? 34 AI never saw anybody with Moses. I saw a young -- with 35Jimmy Blackwater, there was from the big son, bah daughter 36and down to about this size and they snowshoed in and out 3?of there in the middle of winter. 38 QThat's what I wanted to ask you next is whether or not 39there were some people, sons and perhaps grandchildren of 40Jimmy Blackwater's? 41 AI don't know whether they were grandchildren.I don't 42know -- I don't know whether they were grandchildren or 43what tHey were, but there was quite a little tribe of them. 441 don't know, maybe when they were coming out there would 45be eight or nine maybe, probably. 46 QEight or nine children? 47 AWell, no, there was a big girl and a big boy and there was 130 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd lsmaller ones; there was a wife and there was Jimmy. There 2could be seven or eight in a party altogether. But they 3went through and we were friendly. There was nothing wrong 4with -- 5 QYou wee working the area around the 17-mile cabin at the 6outlet of Slamgeesh Lake? . 7 A17-mile cabin? 8 QYeS, the 17-mile cabin? 9 ANever heard..of it; never heard of 17-mile cabin. 10 QI think it's a cabin that's between --a cabin that's llbetween third and fourth and fifth Cabin? 12 AFourth and fifth cabin -- that was where Lou Gelley 13trapped.. . 14 Oh, you weren't up there? 15 ANo, I trapped on the lower end. We used -- had our main 16headquarters at fourth. I went from third to fourth and I 17had branch lines up the stream and Gelley wasn't -- he did 18not trap that heavy, do that much trapping, up in the 19Blackwater -- where Blackwater was, but he had his lines 20off that trip. I don't exactly know where he went. You 21know, we didn't discuss it. 22 QDid you ever get up into that area with Lou? 23 AI believe I did. Probably helped him pack some stuff up 24once or twice, I'm not sure, after the horses were -- 25 QI'm just wondering if you remember the outflow, the area of 26the outflow of Slamgeesh Lake? DO yoU know that area? 27 ASlamgeesh Lake -- let me see that map. No, I can't see it 28on the map. Had you got that map? It might have 29something on it. I'm kind of getting a little bit dense. 30 QI just want to show you the exhibit that we filed 31yesterday, Exhibit 40, and I would just ask you to look 32below the red box marked, "5"? 33 AHm hmm. 34 QJust below that appears to be a lake which I understand is 35Slamgeesh Lake. It's very hard to see. It's right on the 361ine. 37 A6 is up here; that's right. 38 MS. KOENIGSBERG: I'm just pointing to what looks to me to be a 3 91ittle area -- I can barely read it -- but I think that 40says, "Slamgeesh." 41 ASlamgeesh River, yeah, that's right. Well, that's 42probably -- guess that's right. 43 QCan you remember being there: 44 AI've been up there. 45 QDo you have any recollection of that today of being up 46there? 47 AI was there with Fisheries. I landed at Blackwater Lake 131 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants) cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd land walked down to fifth cabin lake and inspected those 2spawning grounds a few times even, you know. 3 QDo you remember when that was? 4 AWell, it was -- I would have to go through some records. I 5can't remember what year, I'm sorry. 6 eAll right. Now, you told us yesterday as well that you 7worked building a road up to Red Rose Mine when you were 8working for Cominco: 9 AThat's right. 10 eAnd I take it that that occurred in one summer? What was Hit, the summer of '40 or '41? 12 AI don't know offhand right now. I couldn't say. 13 QHow long did you spend building that road? 14 AWe spent there the one summer building the road but then I 15went and worked with C.M.S. once the road was built. 16 QI just want to understand. You basically spent, what, 17about a couple of months building the road in one summer? 18 AOh, I think it was most of the summer. I don't know how 191ong, actually how long, but we -- we didn't have the 20machinery you have these days yank"bridges had to be made by 21hand, logs hauled out, and -- but I -- 22 QThen you drove truck, you s$ad? 23 AYes, I drove truck between the mine and Hazelton where they 24picked up their supplies until the mill started operating 25and then I worked in the mill as a mill operator. 26 QAbout how long did you drive truck? 27 AI don't know for sure. 28 QWas it a few months? 29 AOh, yes, a few months anyway. I don't exactly remember how 30many months. 31 QThen you went and worked up in the mill? 32 AIn the mill, yes. I was an operator, chief operator in the 33mill, yeah. 34 QWas that up in the hog back? 35 ANo, it was -- the mine was up in the hog back and they had 36an aerial tram right down to the -- just about timberline 37in the valley and that's where they dumped the ore there 38and it was processed there. 3 9 QThat's where you lived? 40 AI lived there, yes. 41 QRight, and most of the miners lived either up at the hog 42back -- 43 AThe on%s that mined had a camp up at the hog back and the 44ones that worked in the mill lived in the camp down there. 45There was married people lived there. 46 QRight. 47 AYeah. 132 GIRaUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd 10 And that's where you spent your week? When you were 2working in the mine, you spent it at the -- when you worked 3 in the mill --.'.. 4A When I was working in the mill -- 5Q - - you spent your time in the bunk houses or whatever? 6A well, I had a little place of my own. I built a little 7place of my own. I was married by this time and I lived 8there. I had a little log house I built there. 9Q How long did you work in the mill? 10A Well, I don't know exactly how long, but they found a llbigger source, Consolidated found a bigger source of 12tungsten down in the south and so they closed that down and 13they transferred me to Trail and I worked in Trail until I 14went into the army. 15Q Can you just give us your best estimate of how long you 16worked at the mill: 17A I just -- 18Q Was it less than a year? 19A I just can't tell you right now, I'm sorry. 20Q Okay. I want you to tell us what you can. If you can't 21remember, that's fine. 22 Mr. Giraud, I just wanted to ask you about the subject 23of your attempting to introduce dip nets in the Hagwilget 24Canyon? 25A Yes, go ahead. 26Q DO yoU remember that? 27A Yes. 28Q And I think that was back in '49, 1949: 2 9A I would -- if I look at the report, I guess I could verify 30that but..I'11 take your word for it. 31Q Can you recall if there were problems with the fish being 32frightened by the dip net in the experiment that was used? 33A There was complaints probably but I don't -- they could 34take fish. The main complaint with the dip'.net was there , 35wasn't that many places it could be operated. 36Q It could only be used -- 37A And it was unwieldy compared to a gaff. A long pole, the 38same length of pole, with just a little gaff hook on it was 3 9put down into the -- but a dip net that was probably as 40long as from here to there and about so wide on the frame 41with rings, had quite a bit more drag of water, hey, and it 42was a little bit heavier work. They didn't like it anyway. 43But they didn't lose fish. 44Q The places that were restricted to its use were two, is 45that right: 46A Just depended how you wanted to use it. Now, if you wanted 47to use it -- there's two methods of using it. There's 133 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd lputting it down in an eddy where they can hold it, or maybe 2have a line on top, and there's places where the fish are 3moving that they -- the Fraser River, that they sweep it 4and they catch fish that way too, but the easy places to 5fish, I guess there was only two. 6 QDo you remember -- 7 AThat's right. ' 8 QDo you remember, Mr. Giraud, whether there was a problem 9with the visibility of the twine that was used in the lOmaking of the net that, in fact, the fish could see the lltwine? 12 Alt could be. 13 QIs that something that -- that's an obvious problem with a 14 dip net? .... 15A Could be, yes, but that water there is very turbulent and I 16don't think that it was that big a problem. Fish were 17shooting through there and, I mean -- it wasn't as muddy as 18the Fraser, mind you, but -- .' 19 QI understand that the time'.that the experiment was 20conducted, that the main sockeye run had gone by the place 21in the Hagwilget Canyon. DO you remember that? 22 Alt could have been. There was fish there though. We 23proved that they could be caught without losing them; that 24was all. I don't think the next year -- they probably 25tried it again the next year when there% was plenty of fish 26and one of the things they complained, it was a little bit 27too hard work than it was with the gaff, with a net on 28there, hey? 29 QA11 right. I want to come back to something we talked 30about a little earlier but which I didn't have a document 31at that time to show you what you had said, but I do now, 32and it's the subject of the fact that it was your 33impression that Indian people working in the logging camps 34who earned money would spend the money on store-bought 35meats as opposed to working the fishery? . 36 AWell, that was my -- if I said that, if that was my opinion 37at the time, I wouldn't change it now. 38 QOkay. I just want to refer you to Document No. 189 9 which 39is Exhibit 26. 40 AHm hmm. 41 QAnd if you'll just look at the second of the three pages. 42 APage 2, yes, I guess I've got it here now. 43 QActually, there are five pages to this document and I only 44have Pages 1, 2, and 5. 45 MR. WOLFE: There are pages missing from that document. 46 MR. RUSH: Do we have those pages? 47 MS. KOENIGSBERG: No. You'd have them if we had them. I only 134 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd lhave here page 2, 5, and 1. 2 MR. RUSH: I have 1, 2 and 5. 3 MS. KOENIGSBERG: We have the same pages. 4 AI wouldn't have them. 5 MR. RUSH: 6 QNo. I'd like to just direct you to the portion that is in 7the middle of the page of Page 2 entitled, "Indian 8Fishery," and the paragraph that's below the tables in that 9section. 10 AHm hmm. 11 QAnd I want to refer to you halfway through that paragraph 12where it says -- and I'm quoting, 13"Indians in this area that have 14 worked in logging camps, etc., do 15 little fishing as they would sooner 16 buy meat if they have the money. 17 This makes the Indian fishery 18 heavier in years that jobs are not 19 plentiful, as in this year, 20 in 1957. The pink catch was down 21 considerably from 1957 as the run 22 upriver was much lighter than in 23 1957 and most pinks are taken 24 incidentally in sockeye 25 nets." 26A Hm hmm. 27Q Now, I'd like to ask you if in 1958, Mr. Giraud, you knew 28how many people were working in the logging camps? 2 9A Well, I couldn't -- I have no way of the numbers now but 30somewhere, somebody passed me along that information. I 31don't know where I got it but I believed that at the time 32and I wrote that at the time; that's all I can tell you. 33Q I understand that, but is it not the case, Mr. Giraud, that 34you didn't have any numbers or counts of people that were 35working in activity in the wage economy outside of the 36Hagwilget/Hazelton area? 37A Well, no, but we knew that there was logging camps going 38and these people worked in them and when they were working 39in them they wouldn't be fishing. 40Q How do you know that? 41A Well, I don't think they would if they were out in the 421ogging camp. 43Q Well, you tell me that, Mr. Giraud. 44A Maybe -- I don't know. 45Q Well, his is what I'm asking you is -- 46A Yeah. 47Q You say that if they work in the logging industry, they 135 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd ldon't fish, and I want to know if you can tell me how you 2knew that? 3 AThere was 198 permits in 1957. Now, I haven't got a list 4of the permits -- this year -- 182. That's not -- what -- 5it's not that much difference anyway. 6 QWell, I just want you to tell me, if you can, how you came 7to the conclusion that the fact that there were fewer 8permits in 1958 was because people working in the logging 9camps were not fishing: 10 AWell, that's what I say here and if I didn't believe it at lithe time, I wouldn't have written it. 12 QI understand that. I understand at the time in 1958 you 13believed that. 14 AWell -- 15 QBut ca you tell me how you came to believe that? 16 AI can't change the -- anything right now, and I had some 17reason for saying it'.or I wouldn't have put it down there. 18But it's quite a long time ago and I just can't make it any 19clearer for you. 20 QOkay. I take it you certainly wouldn't have counted the 21number of people logging and the number of people fishing? 22 AOh, no, but probably you're talking to your guardian and 23say, "Where's this guy?" and, "Oh, he's logging this year," 24and he might have been logging part way through and then 25come back and got a permit afterwards, you know, but at the 26height of the -- maybe he wasn't fishing; I don't know. 27It's something hat we come to that -- . 28 QI just would like to say to you that it sounds to me as 29though you assumed that because somebody logged they didn't 30fish? 31 AWell, if they were out away from the river logging, they 32couldn't be fishing, could they? 33 QWell, I would dispute that. I think they could be. 34 AHow can they fish where they're working there was no river, 35unless they went home every so often and fished but -- 36 QWell, that's been -- that happens, doesn't it?. . 37 Alt could happen, but they weren't there all the time. When 38they were in the woods, if you know, they go to a camp in 39the woods and they stay for a week and they might go home 40for the weekends. 41 QWeekends, yes, and we know logging is a seasonal activity 42and it doesn't run all of the time. 43 ASeasonal, but it's a summer thing when the fish run is on, 44yes. 45 QMr. Giraud, let me ask you one other question. You told 46Mr. MacKenzie yesterday that you did not observe a 47conservation ethic, as he said/ among the Indians, and you 136 GIRAUD, V. H. <for defendants; cross-exaM by Mr. Rush cont'd lsaid that you didn't? 2 ANo, I didn't. 3 QOkay. What did you understand a conservation ethic to 4mean? 5 AWell, it certainly wasn't taking a string of fish and tying 6it up to the beach and leaving it in the river and leaving 7it go there until it rotted and they never used it, was it? 8Could it be? Well, that happened. 9 QOkay, it happened. 10 AYeah. 11 QAnd can you tell me, Mr. Giraud, what else that you meant 12by a conservation ethic: 13 AWell, conservation, that's saving of fish, hey, and there 14was instances where they didn't. They took more fish than 15they could use and that's not conservation; that's waste. 16That was my point. 17 QYou don't say that the Indians aren't concerned about the 18preservation of the fishery? 19 AI have my doubts. 20 QYou knew full well that they lived on the fish, they used 21the fish. You were into the smokehouses. You saw the -- 22 AThey always got enough but that doesn't mean to say the 23would always be enough, hey? If they took more than they 24needed, some rotted on the line or some -- you know, that 25was the only part; I hated waste. And that happened and 26you'll have every fish officer in the country will tell you 27that they wasted fish. You know, maybe they didn't think 28that was so much because they knew they would get some 2 9more. 30 QYou saw this as violations of the Fisheries regulations? 31 AThey took fish other than for their own when they wasted 32them, hey: 33 QYou said to us earlier today they traded the fish. 34 Alf they traded them, that was against the regulations, yes. 35They were to take them for their own use. I wouldn't say 36that if one Indian family gave some of their relatives that 37weren't fishing a salmon or two for a box of huckleberries 38or something like that, I wouldn't say that that was a -- 39but if it was done for gain and monetary, well, I wouldn't 40say it was right. 41 QIs that what you mean when you say they took more than they 42used/ is that if they sold it for gain that this wasn't a 43good thing: 44 AWell, if they took them and sold them it wasn't lawful 45even. 46 QRight, this was against the Fisheries' Act? 47 AThat's right and it has happened. You know it happened but 137 GIRAUD, v. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd lto prove it all the time is what. 2Q Is that in part what you meant by being against a 3conservation ethic? 4A Yes, it is, if you take more than you use and it is wasted. 5Q If it's sold? 6A Even if it's not sold. If it's left to rot on a line or 7something like that, it's wasted. 8Q I hear what you're saying. 9A If it's sold, if they got some monetary gain for it, but lOthey didn't have that right to do it. 11Q What I'm asking you is that if they didn't have the right 12to take the fish and it was sold and it was taken for more 13than food purposes or more than what they used, did you 14consider that to be a waste? 15A Fish that weren't used were wasted, yeah. 16Q Even if they were sold? 17A If they were sold illegally, if they were sold to a 18non-Indian, it was illegal. 19Q You don't dispute the importance of the salmon in the diet 2Oof the Indian people, do you, Mr. Giraud? 21A No. 22Q It was an important feature of their eating and their 23customs? 24A Especially the old people. The old people, I would think 25that they -- well, that's all right. I won't say any more 26 on that 27Q And you knew from your experience at Cedarvale that it was 28important too in their ceremonies, that fish was a 2 9representative importance in their ceremonies: 30A Did I say that? 31Q No, I'm just asking you. 32A Well, I don't know. 33Q You didn't: 34A I know they had songs about the fish in their native tongue 35but I don't know what they meant. 36MR. RUSH: Those are all my questions for you. 37MS. KOENIGSBERG: I don't think I have any re-examination, but 38just give me a minute. I have no re-examination.. 3 9MR. RUSH: There is a document that I want to put in. 40Mr. Giraud, I'm just going to ask you to identify this one 41final document, 1676. That is your signature on the 42document? 43A Yes, that's my signature. 44 45 46 47 138 GIRAUD, V. H. (for defendants; cross-exam by Mr. Rush cont'd 1MR. RUSH Okay, thank you. I'd like that to be the final 2exhibit from our case. Those are all the questions I have. 3 4(EXHIBIT 46: Document No. 1676) 5 6(PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED) 7 81 hereby certify the foregoing to be 9a true and accurate transcript of the lOproceedings herein, transcribed to lithe best of my skill and ability: 12 13 14 15 Ruth V. Spencer 16 Official Court Reporter. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47
Trial proceedings
British Columbia
KEB529.5.L3 B757
English
Uukw, Delgam, 1937-
Indigenous peoples--Canada
Oral history
Wet'suwet'en First Nation
Vancouver : University of British Columbia Library
Vancouver : United Reporting Service Ltd.
Images provided for research and reference use only. For permission to publish, copy, or otherwise distribute these images, please contact the Courts of British Columbia: http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/
Original Format: University of British Columbia. Library. Law Library.
[Commission Evidence of V. Giraud Vol. 4]
Text