"42a7da27-bc86-4f53-86bb-e34bfecdb187"@en . "CONTENTdm"@en . "CORRESPONDENCE RE FISHERIES, ETC."@en . "http://resolve.library.ubc.ca/cgi-bin/catsearch?bid=1198198"@en . "Sessional Papers of the Province of British Columbia"@en . "British Columbia. Legislative Assembly"@en . "2014-12-10"@en . "[1908]"@en . "https://open.library.ubc.ca/collections/bcsessional/items/1.0064432/source.json"@en . "application/pdf"@en . " RETURN\nOf copies of Correspondence showing the contentions and claims of the Province\nagainst the Dominion, or vice versa, in regard to Fisheries, Hatcheries, Foreshore. June 1st, 1901, to February 12th, 1908.\nW. J. BOWSER,\nAttorney-General,.\nAttorney-General's Department,\nFebruary 17th, 1908.\n[Telegram.]\nVictoria, B. C, 1st June, 1901.\nSir Louis Davies, K.C.M.G.,\nOttawa, Ont.\nThe Government of British Columbia are ready to assume the duties denned in the\njudgment of the Privy Council in the fisheries case, and are bringing into force the Act passed\nat the last Session. The fishing season is approaching. Can we arrange matters so that no\nfriction will arise to in any way interfere with this important industry 1 Kindly answer.\nD. M. Eberts, Attorney-General.\n[Telegram.]\nOttawa, Ont, 3rd June, 1901.\nHon. D. M. Eberts, Attorney-General,\nVictoria, B. C.\nDominion Government quite willing you should assume protection such Provincial\nfisheries as under Privy Council decision belong to Province. Had no difficulty with Ontario\nor Quebec, except with respect sea-coast fisheries, as to which test case agreed upon between\nDominion and Quebec, pending which we retain control. Suggest similar arrangement with\nBritish Columbia. If decided afterwards in your favour we to account for net receipts after\npayment fair share administrative expenses. Regarding Fraser River proper to point where\nit debouches into sea, both Governments have legal right issue licences and exact fees, but I\nwould propose, to avoid conflict authority, Dominion should retain control and account to\nProvince such proportion of licence fees as may be agreed on, or, in case of disagreement,\nadjusted by a referee. Beyond mouths of rivers Dominion Government must retain exclusive\ncontrol. If this disputed by Province, Privy Council must decide. Your Statute contains\nprovisions for Provincial regulation similar to those originally contained Ontario Statutes.\nThese are ultra vires. Ontario has repealed them. Would require undertaking your\nGovernment allow them remain abeyance till next Session and then repeal.\nL. H. Davies. M 2 Correspondence re Fisheries, etc. 1908\n[Telegram.]\nVictoria, B. C, 15th June, 1901.\nSir Louis Davies, Minister Marines and Fisheries,\nOttawa, Ont.\nIn answer to your telegram of 3rd instant, Government British Columbia willing to let\nquestion of the sea-coast fisheries remain in abeyance. Regarding Provincial rivers Fraser,\nNaas, Skeena and others, \" Dominion to collect licences this season and account to Province\nfor such proportion of licences as may be agreed upon, and, in case of disagreement, to a\nreferee acceptable to both Governments.\" This Government willing to amend Fishery\nAct first opportunity where it may be found it has infringed on Federal rights. Kindly\n.answer.\nD. M. Eberts, Attorney-General.\n(No answer.)\nVictoria, B. C, April 19th, 1902.\nHon. James Sutherland, Minister Marine and Fisheries,\nOttawa, Ont.\nSm,\u00E2\u0080\u0094By an arrangement made by the late Minister of Marine and Fisheries, Sir Louis\nDavies, and this Government in June last, it was agreed that for the season of 1901 the\nDominion Government should collect the licences, and pay over such proportion of same as\nmight be agreed on. Our Government has had no return of their proportion of licences, and\nI would like to be assured that our share will be paid over at an early date. Will you kindly\nsend a statement of the revenues collected during the year 1901 from that source in British\nColumbia ?\nI have, etc,\nD. M. Eberts, Attorney-General.\nMinister of Marine and Fisheries,\nOttawa, Ont., 26th April, 1902.\nD. M. Eberts, Esq., Attorney-General,\nVictoria, B. C.\nDear Sir,\u00E2\u0080\u0094I have the honour to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 19 th\ninstant referring to the arrangement entered into between my predecessor and your Government regarding the collection of licence fees in British Columbia by this Department during\n1901 pending the final settlement of the question raised by the decision of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council rendered 26th May, 1898, and the subsequent refund of a portion\nthereof to your Government.\nThe subject of your letter will receive my consideration.\nYours faithfully,\nJames Sutherland.\n(No further answer ever received to above.) 8 Ed. 7 Correspondence re Fisheries, etc. M 3\n[Telegram.]\nVictoria, B. C, 27th June, 1902.\nThe Hon. Minister cf Marine and Fisheries,\nOttawa, Ont.\nOur Fisheries Act has been amended pursuant to suggestions of Minister of Justice and\nwill be brought into force by proclamation unless an arrangement can be arrived at with your\nGovernment respecting a fair division of fees for fishery licences. Such an arrangement was\nin force last year. I would refer you to telegram of Sir Louis Davies. As fishing season\nabout to commence I would request that you advise me as soon as possible whether your\nGovernment will make arrangement for this year.\nD. M. Eberts, Attorney-General.\n[Telegram.]\nOttawa, Ont., June 28th, 1902.\nD. M. Eberts, Esq., Attorney-General,\nVictoria, B. C.\nPending decision sea-coast fisheries and subjects before conference would suggest plan\nmutually adopted last year be continued Dominion retaining control licences and agreeing to\naccount for any proportion licence fees that may hereafter be decided upon as belonging to\nProvince. Your acceptance this arrangement by wire will suffice.\nJames Sutherland\n[Telegram.]\nVictoria, B. C, 30th June, 1902.\nHon. James Sittherland, Ottawa, Ont.\nBritish Columbia Government accepts your proposals that last year's arrangement\nrespecting fisheries be continued this year.\nD. M. Eberts, Attorney-General.\nThe British Columbia Fisheries.\n[B. C. Sessional Papers, 1903, p. K 14.]\nThe Right Honourable Sir Wilfrid Laurier, G.C.M.G.,\nPrime Minister.\nDear Sir Wilfrid,\u00E2\u0080\u0094Pursuant to the understanding arrived at during the interview you\nwere kind enough to afford the members of the British Columbia Delegation, on Monday, the\n28th ultimo, we beg to submit a memorandum of our case as presented by the Honourable\nthe Attorney-General, and incidentally also to present some observations with respect to\nobjections raised by your colleagues on that occasion.\nIn his remarks the other day the Honourable the Attorney-General dwelt upon the fact\nthat, unfortunately, British Columbia had been excluded from the benefits to Canada accruing\nunder the Halifax award, notwithstanding that, as part of British North America under the\nterms of the treaty, it was entitled to consideration on account of disability suffered by British\nColumbia through the refusal of the LTnited States to open their market to our fish and fish\noil. At that time fish oil was an important, and practically the only, fishery product of the\nProvince, and the trade to be obtained on the Pacific coast was of the greatest possible value. M 4 Correspondence re Fisheries, Etc. 1908\nIn the expenditure for fishery development on the Atlantic coast, compared with what has\nbeen spent on the Pacific coast, we are specifically debarred from referring to the bounties\npaid to the fishermen of the Maritime Provinces, because, it is held, the benefits of the award\nwere to apply locally and not generally. This is alleged as an incident in which, from the\nvery commencement of Confederation, our interests, owing to the isolated position of our\nProvince, politically as well as otherwise, have been side-tracked. The position of the Province\nin respect to the Halifax award is fully outlined in the copies of Orders in Council and correspondence attached, which are submitted for your consideration. As the distribution of the\nmoneys under this award is now under consideration, the arguments set forth therein are as\ncogent now as then.\nIn former correspondence, included in the report of the Delegation to Ottawa in 1901, it\nwas pointed out very clearly that the manifest policy of the Dominion Government, or of the\nDepartment of Marine and Fisheries, was not to make a revenue out of fisheries, but to\nencourage and develop the industry to the greatest possible extent.\nIn this connection the Attorney-General observed that in every country of the world in\nwhich fishing is carried on the records go to show that a similar policy prevails, and that\nrevenue is only an incidental feature of policy designed to cover ordinary expenses of administration, and is not considered as in any way essential in comparison with the main cost.\nThat this is, and has been, the policy of Canada is evidenced by the figures submitted, showing\nthat since July 1st, 1887, exclusive of bounties, the expenditure involved in fisheries services,\nfish breeding, fisheries protective service and miscellaneous, amounted to $4,522,254. The\nrevenues for the same period from the taxation of the Provivces, for fishery purposes, amounted\nto $1,049,651. Of those revenues, $400,740 was realised out of British Columbia alone, or 38\nper cent, of the total, while only the sum of about $200,000, or a little less than 4|- per cent,\nof the total expenditures, came back to British Columbia in the way of appropriations for all\npurposes. This constitutes a direct tax on the salmon industry, which was the only one\naffected. Under the circumstances, the Government of British Columbia claimed that the\nProvince is justly entitled to a return of all the contributions under the head of fisheries\nlicences since Confederation, less the sum expended in the administration of the fisheries by\nthe Dominion. This is based on the ground that nothing has been done in British Columbia\nby the Dominion towards the development of the fisheries, for which they have not been fully\npaid. In other words, that the Dominion Government is not entitled to receive something for\nwhich they gave nothing in return. In view of the very large excess of expenditure over\nrevenue in the other Provinces, and more especially in view of the fact that, under the decision\nof the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, British Columbia has all along been entitled\nto collect a portion of the fishery revenues, and if it were to receive back the whole of the\namounts paid in at Ottawa it would not be unduly favoured.\nThe Honourable the Minister of Finance, when this view was being presented, suggested\nthe parallel of the post office service in one part of the country yielding more largely in revenues\nthan in another, and asked if a similar contention should prevail. There is, however, no\nanalogy between the post office and fishery services. In one, as has been pointed out already,\nthe policy is not one of revenue, any more than, for instance, it would be in the matter of the\ndevelopment of agriculture. In the case of the post office, the service is essentially, as with a\nrailway or telegraph system, for the benefit of those who use it for business or social purposes,\nand its operation is so regulated, theoretically, at least, as to yield a revenue equal to the cost,\nthe general principle at the base of its operation being that those who use it shall pay for it in\nproportion to their use. It is obviously unfair that the fisheries of British Columbia should\ncontribute to the support of the fisheries of the Atlantic ; and even if, as one Minister suggested, the fish were so plentiful in British Columbia that no special efforts of development\nare required, the right does not exist, as in that case the taxation would be unnecessary and,\ntherefore, unjust.\nIn reply to a question of a Minister, who asked what was proposed to be done with the\nmoney if it were refunded to the Province, it may be stated in confirmation of what the\nAttorney-General promised, that the Government would apply it to a special fund, the\nproceeds of which would be exclusively devoted to the development of the fishery industry,\nand thus the people of the Province would receive an adequate return for their contributions\nin the past. The fishery resources of the Pacific Coast are so important, and so much depends\nupon them in relation to our peculiar position in other respects, that with proper husbanding\nand fostering care they are capable of immense expansion, and not only of employing a large 8 Ed. 7 Correspondence re Fisheries, etc. M\nportion of the population remuneratively and building up big industries, but of adding\ntremendously to the importance of Canada, and what is of special interest to your Government,\nof returning vastly increased revenues to the Dominion in the way of customs and excise. On\nthe assumption that the fishery population could be doubled in a few years, which is a modest\nassumption based on what has already been the rate of increase, the customs and inland revenue\nreceipts would be augmented by at least $250,000 per annum.\nAt the present time, as pointed out by the Attorney-General, British Columbia, in respect\nto capital invested and fishery products, is second among the Provinces in the Dominion.\nThe figures are given in full in the appendices. The fishery industry is and has been, therefore,\ncontributing very largely to the general revenues of Canada, and by the impost of licences to\nthe extent that has obtained in the past, it is being doubly taxed, and that without any special\nor corresponding benefit or necessity.\nThe next matter of particular importance to be considered is the position which the\nProvince takes in regard to the administration of the fisheries. The members of the Delegation have been asked what steps the Provincial Government would take and what policy it\nwould pursue that cannot be equally well undertaken by the Dominion, more especially in view\nof the fact that the other Provinces are agreed to allow the Federal Government to remain in\ncontrol as formerly.\nWhat we claim is that, with a better local knowledge of the industry and the conditions\nwhich govern its success, we are in a better position to understand the requirements. The\nexperience of the past has been, and we speak now of all Governments at Ottawa, that the\nadministration of the fisheries in our Province has not been satisfactory. One reason for this\nis the distance from the administrative centre and the difficulties in the way of bringing the\nviews of those engaged in the industry, both employers and men, into intimate touch with the\nofficial heads of the Department. Another difficulty is the inability of officers, however anxious\nto do the right thing at all times and under all circumstances, to understand the conditions\nwhich exist 3,000 miles away, and to appreciate the requirements which only accurate local\nknowledge and local experience can determine. The knowledge required in the handling of\nfish and control of fishing on the Pacific is not to be obtained by experience of conditions in\nthe East. The varieties of fish, and especially of the salmon, are different; their habits are\nnot the same; their habitat is widely distributed; and, altogether, any uniform set of regulations which might apply successfully in the Maritime Provinces would be totally unsuitable\nin British Columbia. As a matter of fact, the Maritime Provinces, being closely in touch\nwith Ottawa, with officials there representing local knowledge, acquired either by long residence\nthere or by easy access to the fishing grounds, have had their wants adequately looked after, which\naccounts for the very large excess of expenditure over revenue derived from the fisheries there,\nand the very wise and progressive measures of development and protection that have been\ninstituted. That is only natural and right. We do not complain of the attention that has\nbeen paid to the fisheries of the Atlantic Coast. The Government is justified in doing what\nit has done. The results have been manifold and of immense benefit to Canada; but the\nGovernment inaugurated a policy there and carried it out successfully, because it has always\nbeen in a position to know what was the right policy to pursue. The Maritime Provinces, by\nreason of their nearness to the administrative centre, and the fact that their fishery interests\nhave from the outset been well and fully represented in the Government, have in other words,\nhad a fair opportunity of moulding and directing their own fishery policy in accordance with\ntheir own requirements. What the people of the Eastern Provinces have done in this respect,\nwe believe the Province of British Columbia can do successfully for itself and for similar\nreasons. It can be done with less cost to the Province, and with better results for, and\ngreater return to, the Dominion.\nThe salmon, the catching and canning of which constitute one of the greatest and most\nimportant industries of the Province, have their sources in the headwaters and tributaries of\nthe great rivers which find an outlet along a coast several thousand miles in extent, and which\nform a network of streams and lakes in the vast interior. The policy of conservation and\ndevelopment necessary to the continuance of that industry on a large and increasing scale\ninvolves the careful and systematic investigation of the conditions governing propagation\nthroughout the area referred to. The salmon have many natural enemies, and the supply is\ndependent upon many and varied conditions in nature, as well as for repletion, where the\nannual catch is so great, upon artificial methods. It is necessary to locate hatcheries at points\nwhere it is known the best natural spawning grounds exist. The conditions demand not only one but many hatcheries, in order to obtain the best possible results. They also demand that\nthe best experts obtainable, who have extensive local knowledge, should be on the spot to\ndevote their attention wholly to the subject of propagation ; for it can hardly be expected that\nwork of the kind, so extensive and yet so local in its character, can be supervised or directed\neffectively from Ottawa, even though the most scientific and expert knowledge is at command.\nThis is the policy the Province has in view and the policy it is carrying out. It has\nalready located one hatchery, which, when completed, will have a capacity of rearing 25,000,000\nfry. It proposes others ; and these will all be constructed as part of an effective system of\npropagation. The experience of the Province since salmon-canning began in 1876 has almost\nbeen invariable in demonstrating that there are regular periods of runs of salmon in great\nplenty, followed by runs of smaller size, or years of plenty and years of scarcity. This\nperiodicity has not been satisfactorily accounted for and may never be explained, but the presumption is a fair one, that by artificial methods of increasing the supply of healthy fry each\nyear results will follow similar to those in other places where the salmon run has been repleted\nafter depletion, that periodicity will be broken up and a uniform supply of salmon be made\navailable each year. If this can be achieved our salmon interests will, commercially, be greatly\nbenefited. It will take a very large number of fry to be deposited every year to materially\naffect the supply. There is, however, no limit to the possibilities of the industry, provided\nthe regulations are of such a character as to permit a sufficient number of adult fish to reach\nthe spawning grounds every year. To accomplish this, the regulations must be made to meet\nthe known conditions as they exist from year to year and not as they are at present, applying\nto all seasons alike. For instance, the regulations of 1901\u00E2\u0080\u0094which were sufficient, in that\nyear of plenty, to allow all the fish desired for commercial purposes to be taken and yet left\nabundance for spawn\u00E2\u0080\u0094were shown to be totally inadequate in 1902, a poor year, when too\ngreat a proportion of the run was taken, and there was a consequent scarcity of fish on the\nspawning beds, many of which were unoccupied. This naturally suggests greater expenditure\nfor propagation in years of scarcity and the establishment of auxiliary stations for that\npurpose.\nIt is no part of our mission, nor is it our desire, to criticise the management of the\nhatcheries at present in operation in the Province; but what we do say is, that they are neither\nlarge enough in capacity nor sufficiently well located to be as effective as they should be in\npropagation. Furthermore, we believe the Province could operate them to greater advantage\nto the fishery industry than has been done in the past; and the Government is willing to\nassume their management without cost to the Dominion.\nThe Attorney-General also brought to your attention the peculiar conditions which render\na change in the nature of the regulations permitting the use of traps and purse-nets in certain\nlocalities as desirable.\nThe methods in use in American waters for capturing the sockeye salmon that pass from\nthe open sea along the west and south coast of Vancouver Island, through Juan de Fuca\nStrait, thence into the American Sound, on their way to the Fraser River, necessitates a change\nin the existing fishery regulations in our Province, if we are to conserve our interests in the\nsalmon fisheries. The Americans concede that fully 95 per cent, of the sockeye salmon caught\nin Puget Sound waters were bred in and are seeking to return to the Fraser River.\nWe favour the use of traps in a limited district in our Province. In the discussion of this\nquestion it has been pointed out, on the one hand, that the use of traps is a destructive method\nof catching fish ; that too great a proportion of the run is taken; that their use will exterminate the fish and will deprive the fishermen of employment, because the cost of traps is so\ngreat that only men of means could own and operate them.\nOn the other hand, it is said that the use of traps is more scientific, more economical,\nand the .more easily regulated method of catching fish, that by no other method can they be\ntaken in clear waters; that in the clear waters of the straits and sounds the fish are in better\ncondition for use; that the fish taken are not killed until removed from the traps; that they\ncan be held for a week or 10 days without injury to their canning qualities; that when the\npacking capacity of the cannery has been reached the traps can be closed ; that fish taken in\ngill nets are killed or fatally injured in being removed from them; that their catch cannot be\nregulated, and at times is in excess of the capacity of the canneries ; that there is an ever\nincreasing scarcity of labourers in the packing establishments; that the men who are now engaged\nin the hazardous and laborious business of fishing would find ready and equally remunerative\nemployment in the canneries and in connection with the placing and work of trap fishing. 8 Ed. 7 Correspondence re Fisheries, etc. M 7\nAt the present time the Americans are, by means of traps and purse nets, catching the\nvery fish which should be taken by our fishermen while passing through our waters in the\nstraits, and south of Discovery Island. During the past season the State of Washington\nissued 305 traps, 84 purse net and 92 drag net licences for the capture of these salmon, while\nunder the Dominion regulations our fishermen were confined to the use of gill nets, which are\nnot suited to successful use in the clear waters through which the fish pass before entering the\nAmerican waters. If the use of traps endangers the perpetuation of our Fraser River salmon\nfishery, then the Americans will soon have accomplished the extinction of these fish and will\nbe reaping the benefits.\nWe do not, at this time, advocate the use of traps in any of the waters of the Province\nthat are unaffected by the use of American traps. In our own channels, north of Discovery\nIsland, when the fish are moving towards the Gulf of Georgia en route to the Fraser River and\nwhere they are not apt to encounter American traps we do not believe the use of traps is\nadvisable.\nFurther, our contention is that it is a suicidal, one-sided and altogether unbusinesslike\narrangement to allow the Americans, on account of the prejudice against traps, to enjoy the\nmonopoly of catching fish by that method. It is not only a detriment to the Canadian fishing\nindustry in respect to the supply of fish, but it enables them to secure fish at from 3 to 7 cents\neach as compared with from 12|- to 25 cents per fish which our canners have to pay; and to\nsell them in English markets in competition and regulate the prices there. The American\ncannery men have the advantage of the United States market, from which our canners are\nexcluded by a duty, and are, at the same time, able to control the British markets to which by\nfar the largest part of our pack is sent. We have every reason to believe that if our canners\nplaced traps along the shores of Vancouver Island, in the waters south of Discovery Island,\nthrough which the salmon pass before entering the American waters of the Sound, it would\nprove a strong lever towards an arrangement being reached with the authorities of the State\nof Washington, whereby uniform regulations could be enforced on both sides of the line, more\nespecially as along the Pacific Coast the cannery interests are rapidly becoming consolidated\ninto a few large companies, the managers of which are fully alive to the desirability of preserving the industry by effective regulations.\nIn any event, it is manifestly a foolish policy to permit the Americans to reap all the\nbenefits of the use of traps, from which, however, there is no reason to anticipate under proper\nregulations and control, anything but beneficial results.\nThis Government has no desire to usurp the rights of the Dominion Government in respect\nto the regulation of the fisheries, but our policy is to co-operate with the authorities at Ottawa\nn every respect in which it is possible to promote the development of mutual interests.\nWe know the Dominion has the right and has for a number of years collected taxes to\nthe extent that has been mentioned, and that at the same time the Province had a similar\nright which it did not exercise. We most respectfully request that in the future not a greater\nsum shall be extracted from that source than would be sufficient to carry out the Dominion\nregulations, With that in mind, we submit that a tax in the form of a licence not greater than\n$2.50 per boat should be ample for that purpose. Under such an arrangement there would\nbe no conflict of authority or embarrassment arising from both Governments attempting to\nissus licences, as under such proposed arrangement the Province would refrain altogether from\nraising a revenue by the issuance of licences to fishing boats.\nAs you are aware, after it had been announced that the latter intended to avail itself of\nthe rights under the decision of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, an agreement\nwas reached in 1901 between the Department of Marine and Fisheries and the Province,\nwhereby, at the instance of the Hon. Minister of Marine and Fisheries, a modus vivendi was\nestablished. In a general way it was agreed that the Dominion should remain in control and\naccount to the Province for such proportion of licence fees as might be agreed upon, and in\ncase of disagreement the proportion was to be adjusted by a referee. It is the wish of the\nDominion Government that a 'modus vivendi should continue in force until a final decision\nas to the full rights of the Provinces in the fisheries are determined; but we suggest that\nthere now be a definite understanding as to what that proportion of return of revenue should\nbe to each Government. On our part we think there should be returned to the Provincial\nGovernment for fishery purposes that amount of revenue collected which is in excess of the\noperating expenses, or a fixed sum, as may be agreed upon. M 8 Correspondence re Fisheries, etc. 190S\nIn conclusion, we beg to affirm the assurances of the Attorney-General that the desire of\nthe Government of British Columbia is to work in perfect harmony with the Dominion\nGovernment in all matters of fishery regulation and development, so that their joint efforts\nmay redound to the benefit of the Dominion of Canada as well as of the Province of British\nColumbia. Believe us to be,\nDear Sir Wilfrid,\nVery respectfully yours,\n(Signed) Edwd. Gawler Prior,\nRussell House, Ottawa, February 3rd, 1003.\nD. M. Eberts.\nProposed Settlement re Fisheries.\n[B. C. Sessional Papers, 1903, p. K. 44.]\nOttawa, Feb. Sth, 1903.\nTo the Honourable R. Prefontaine,\nMinister of Marine and Fisheries, Ottawa.\nSir,\u00E2\u0080\u0094Since our interview to-day we have been engaged getting particulars of the amount\ncollected by the Dominion Government in British Columbia for the years 1901-2 for fishing\nlicences. You will remember that an arrangement was made with the British Columbia\nGovernment by Sir Louis Davies for the year 1901, which was continued for 1902. During\nthose years there was collected for the Dominion Government for licences $52,960.35 and\n$41,178.65 respectively, and, as appears by the account furnished us, there was paid out the\nfollowing sums, viz. :\u00E2\u0080\u0094\nFisheries :\n1900-1. 1901-2.\nSalaries of officers $ 1,686 25 $ 2,650 00\nDisbursements 1,270 10 1,084 15\nWages, special guardians 7,766 13 7,008 73\nExpenses 1,870 37 1,869 80\nMiscellaneous 5,273 51 6,033 05\n$17,866 36 $18,560 73\nFraser River Hatchery :\nSalaries $ 500 00 $500 00\nCollecting ova 789 94 939 00\nHardware 62 22 287 20\nRepairs 94 18\nLabour 220 00 2,873 95\nMiscellaneous 75 85 357 31\n$ 1,648 01 $ 5,031 64\nGranite Creek Hatchery :\nConstruction $ 16,061 76\nCollecting ova f 1,026 57\nHardware 177 60\nLabour 3,013 12\nMiscellaneous , 1,831 05\n$ 16,061 76 $ 6,048 34\nSkeena River Hatchery :\nConstruction. , 9,420 59\n$35,576 13 $39,069 30 8 Ed. 7 Correspondence re Fisheries, etc. M 9\nBy the above arrangements the Dominion was to account to the Province for such\nproportion of licence fees \"as may be agreed on, or, in case of a disagreement, adjusted by\nreferee.\" We need scarcely call your attention to the fact that the Dominion Government\nhad collected in the past 14 years upwards of $400,000 from fishing licences, and had, during\nthat time, spent in administration of the fisheries and building and operating hatcheries about\n$200,000.\nWe think that a fair settlement of the amount due British Columbia under the modus\nvivendi should be the sum of $44,984.28, which we make up in the following manner :\u00E2\u0080\u0094\n1901 1902 Total.\nAmount expended for salaries of officers,\ndisbursements, wages (special guardians), expenses, miscellaneous ..., .$17,866 00 $18,560 73 $36,426 73\nFish hatcheries (operation):\n1900-1. 1901-2.\nFraser River $ 1,648 01 $5,03164\nGranite Creek 6,048 34 $12,727 99\n$49,154 72\n1901 1902\nAmount received from licences $ 52,960 35 $41,178 65 $94,139 00\nBalance on hand $44,984 28\nWe note during those years there has been spent in the erection of hatcheries at Skeena\nand Granite Creek the sum of $25,490.35. In all fairness, when you consider the excess of\nrevenue over expenditure in British Columbia for the past 21 years, these building charges (in\na basis of settlement for the years 1901-2) should not be charged up against the Province, and\nthat the Province should be entitled to the difference between receipts and expenditure for\nadministration of fisheries and hatcheries, viz. : the said sum of $44,984.28. If the same\nmode of recouping the Province is carried out this year, we would suggest that the Province\nbe allowed as a fixed sum 50 per cent, of the receipts for licences.\nWe have the honour to be,\nSir,\nYour obedient servants,\n(Signed) E. G. Prior,\nm D. M. Eberts.\n[Telegram.]\nVictoria, B.C., 30th March, 1903.\nHon. R. Prefontaine,\nOttawa, Ont.\nWhen may we expect an answer relating to amounts due British Columbia under fishery\nmodus vivendi of last two years 1 Very important, as we are presenting our estimates to\nParliament. Kindly answer to-day.\nD. M. Eberts, A. G.\n[Telegram.]\nVictoria, B. C, 25th April, 1903.\nHon. R. Prefontaine,\nMinister of Marine and Fisheries, Ottawa, Ont.\nWill you kindly reply to my telegram of SOth of March ? What arrangements do you\npropose for collections and divisions of licence fees for this season 1\nD. M. Eberts, A. G. M 10 Correspondence re Fisheries, etc. 1908\n[Telegram.]\nOttawa, Ont., 27th April, 1903.\nD. M. Eberts,\nAttorney-General, Victoria, B. C.\nPending decision, sea-coast fisheries and subjects before conference, would plan mutually\nadopted last two years be continued another year, Dominion retaining control licences and\nagreeing to account for any proportion of licence fees that may hereinafter be decided on as\nbelonging to Province ? Your acceptance this arrangement by wire will suffice. Matter now\nunder decision in Council and about to be settled soon.\nR. Prefontaine.\n[Telegram.]\nVictoria, B. C, 26th May, 1903.\nHon. R. Prefontaine,\nOttawa, Ont.\nIn your telegram 27th April last you say question as to how much Dominion Government\nwill pay British Columbia under discussion and about to be settled. Have you settled amount\ndue for years 1901 and 1902? Kindly answer quickly as information required for purpose\nof our estimates.\n(No answer received.)\nD. M. Eberts, A. G.\n[B. C. Sessional Papers, 1905, p. P 40.]\nAttorney-General's Office,\nVictoria, B. C, 21st March, 1904.\nThe lion. R. Prefontaine,\nMinister of Marine & Fisheries, Ottawa, Ont.\nSir,\u00E2\u0080\u0094Since the year 1901 there has been a correspondence between the Dominion\nGovernment and that of the Province of British Columbia relative to the fisheries of this\nProvince, beginning with a telegram from my predecessor, Mr. Eberts, to your predecessor,\nSir Louis H. Davies, and dated the 1st of June, 1901.\nOn the 3rd June Sir Louis Davies wired to Mr. Eberts, stating, among other things, that\nhe \" had no difficulty with Ontario or Quebec with respect to sea-coast fisheries, as to which\ntest case agreed upon between Dominion and Quebec.\" I have had the report diligently\nsearched here, and find nothing of this case. May I ask what has been done in the matter 1\nFurther on Sir Louis pointed out that \" both Governments have the right to suggest that\nthe Dominion Government should avoid conflict and account to the Province for such proportion of the fees as may be agreed upon, or, in case of disagreement, adjusted by a referee.\"\nThis agreement was continued in 1902, and again in 1903, and as we appear to be as far\nas we ever were from a settlement, I suppose it will have to be renewed for 1904. But I\nshould like to point out to you that the Dominion appears to have carefully taxed the industry\nall it will stand, and year after j*ear receives the taxes, and that is the end of it.\nNow, as far as the Dominion and Provincial relations with respect to the fisheries are\nconcerned, the simple facts are of a somewhat startling character, and, I submit, are such as\nshould appeal to you to have placed upon a fairer basis.\nLet me present a few facts before you; it has probably been done before, but they lose\nnothing by repetition :\nFor the 14 years ending SOth June, 1901, the Dominion collected fishery\nrevenues $1,049,651\nOf that sum British Columbia contributed 400,740\nor 38 per cent.\nThe total expenditures in the entire Dominion for that period were 6,345,292\nThe total expenditures for the same period in British Columbia were 163,240\nor a trifle more than 24 per cent. 8 Ed. 7 Correspondence re Fisheries, etc. M 11\nIn the same period the Dominion paid to the Eastern Provinces bounties. , . . 2,218,967\nBritish Columbia has never received any bounty.\nThe Dominion has paid in the same period in Eastern Provinces for fishery\nprotection 1,337,740\nIn British Columbia nothing.\nWhile in the year ending 30th June, 1901, British Columbia contributed 67\nper cent, of the fishery revenues collected in the Dominion, only 7 per\ncent, of the expenditures were made in British Columbia.\nIn the year ending 30th June, 1902, the total fishery revenues collected from\nthe Dominion fishery interests amounted to 67,945\nOf which British Columbia contributed 41,178\nor 60 per cent, of the total.\nOne more instance :\u00E2\u0080\u0094\nIn 1901 the total value of the fishery products of the Dominion was $25,737,153\nTotal value fishery products of British Columbia 7,942,771\nTotal value of salmon fishery of British Columbia 6,569,956\nor 90 per cent, of salmon products of the Dominion.\nTotal sum expended in propagation of salmon on the Atlantic coast 23,483\nIn British Columbia 11,079\nThus, while British Columbia furnished over 32 per cent, of the fishery products of the Dominion, only .144 per cent, of the expenditures for support and maintenance was spent in that Province.\nIn all the other Provinces the expenditures have exceeded the collections. Does your\nGovernment consider that equitable 1\nOn the 27th of April, 1903, you wired my predecessor that the \"matter is under discussion in Council, about to be settled soon.\" The word is ambiguous, but one cannot but wonder\nwhen that \" discussion \" will end, particularly in view of the fact that Mr. Eberts' wire of the\n26th of May remains unanswered.\nSo far as the management and control of the fisheries are concerned, this Government\ncannot understand the reason for such a difference in the treatment meted out to British\nColumbia when compared to the other Provinces.\nWith respect to the settlement of sums due this Province, in conformity with Sir Louis\nH. Davies' wire of the 3rd June, 1901, and subsequent agreements, this Government has to\nrequest that your Government either accept the proposal for settlement made by the Province\nin 1903, make a counter proposition, or that steps be taken at once towards the appointment\nof a referee, and the submission of the entire question, that the Province be no longer deprived\nof the amount of revenue justly due from the fisheries, and that you should authorise some one\nto confer with the Government of British Columbia relative to the respective rights of the\nProvince and the Dominion, in order to see if any conclusion entirely satisfactory can be\nreached, and, if not, that proceedings can then be taken to obtain the opinion of the Judicial\nCommittee of the Privy Council as to our respective claims.\nThe Privy Council decided that the fisheries of the Province are the property of the\nProvince. The Province is not satisfied with the present management of its fisheries by the\nDominion. Our vested interests are crying out against the lack of intelligent conservation of\ntheir interests. Our fisheries are of such value and importance that this Government is bound\nto conserve them in every possible way. To do this, we must have our fair proportion of the\nrevenues which your Government has been collecting under an agreement which emanated\nfrom your Government, and which we have faithfully observed ; yet, year after year, your\nGovernment continues to tax the industry and retain the proceeds of such taxation; and this\nafter a somewhat tardy avowal that the Province is entitled to a fair proportion of the revenues\ncollected.\nMay I now ask that this matter receive the attention that, from a Provincial standpoint,\nit seems to deserve.\nI have, etc.,\nCharles Wilson,\nA ttorney- General. M 12 Correspondence re Fisheries, etc. 1908\n[Telegram.]\nVictoria, May 6th, 1904.\nSir Wilfrid Laurier, K. C. M. G.,\nPrime Minister, Ottawa.\nGovernment of British Columbia very anxious your Government should settle claim of\nProvince respecting fisheries according to agreement made Hon. Minister of Fisheries. See\nletter 21st March last Attorney-General British Columbia to Hon. R. Prefontaine. Kindly\nwire what action your Government will take.\n(Signed) Richard McBride.\n[Telegram.]\nOttawa, Ont., May 10th, 1904.\nThe Hon. R. McBride,\nPremier, Victoria, B.C.\nIn answer to your telegram of sixth instant beg to state that you might send a delegate\nwith authority to confer with Minister of Marine and Fisheries here.\n(Signed) Wilfrid Laurier.\nRigid Honourable Sir Wilfrid Laurier,\nOttawa, Ont.\n[Telegram.]\nVictoria, B.C., May 19th, 1904.\nIf agreeable to you, will send Member of the Executive Council with Commissioner\nBabcock to confer with the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, reaching Ottawa on or about\nfifteenth June. Please answer.\n(Signed) Richard McBride,\nPremier.\nVictoria Chambers,\nOttawa, June 15th, 1904.\nHon. J. Raymond Prefontaine,\nMinister of Marine and Fisheries, Ottawa.\nSir,\u00E2\u0080\u0094Pursuant to the request made by Sir Wilfrid Laurier and yourself at our interview\nthis morning, I beg to submit herewith a memorandum setting out the proposals of the Government of the Province of British Columbia respecting the salmon and interior fisheries of\nthe Province and the settlement of the claims of the Province in regard to the licence fees\ncollected by the Dominion Government since Confederation.\nI have, etc.,\n(Signed) Fred. J. Fulton,\nProvincial Secretary of the Province of British Columbia.\nMemorandum.\n1. The Dominion to repay to the Province that amount of the total fisheries licences\ncollected in British Columbia since Confederation which is in excees of the total expenditures\nfor construction, support and maintenance of hatcheries and policing salmon waters.\nThe claim for this amount rests, since the year 1900, on the agreement made in 1901\nbetween the Dominion and the Province, which agreement was renewed and continued in 1902 .\nand 1903. The reasons for the claim of the Province for a settlement on the same basis for\nthe years prior to 1901 are precisely the same as those which actuated the agreement made in\n1901. 8 Ed. 7 Correspondence re Fisheries, etc. L 13\n2. The Dominion to pay to the Province a proportion of the Halifax fisheries award, or\ncompensation for the loss sustained by the Province as a result of the Treaty of Washington.\n3. The Dominion to agree to transfer the entire control of the salmon and interior\nfisheries in British Columbia to the Province, the Province agreeing to construct and maintain\nhatcheries and to enforce regulations without cost to the Dominion, or that this question be\nreferred to a commission.\n4. Failing the immediate concession by the Dominion to the Province of the entire control\nof the salmon and interior fisheries, or pending a settlement of the point, the Dominion to\nagree to transfer the control of existing hatcheries and the propagation of fish to the Province,\nthe Province agreeing to support and maintain the said hatcheries without cost to the\nDominion. In such case, the amount claimed in Paragraph 1 to be immediately paid to the\nProvince, the agreement or modus vivendi entered into in 1901 to be again renewed and continued for the current year. We would further respectfully suggest and urge that the\nProvince be consulted before new regulations are promulgated.\nOffice of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries,\nOttawa, June 16 th, 1904.\nHonourable Fred. J. Fulton,\nProvincial Secretary of British Columbia, Ottawa.\nDear Sir,\u00E2\u0080\u0094I have your letter of yesterday's date, submitting a memorandum of the proposals of the Government of British Columbia respecting a settlement of the question affecting\nthe salmon and interior fisheries of your Province, and a settlement of the claims of British\nColumbia in regard to licence fees collected by the Dominion Government since Confederation.\nThe first proposal contained in your memorandum is that the Dominion should repay the\nProvince that amount of the total fisheries licence fees collected in British Columbia since\nConfederation, which is in excess of the total expenditures for construction, support and maintenance of the hatcheries and policing of salmon waters.\nThe memorandum points out that the claim for this amount since the year 1900 rests on\nthe agreement made in 1901 between the Dominion and the Province, which agreement was\nrenewed and continued in 1902 and 1903; the reasons for the claim of the Province for a\nsettlement on the same basis for the years prior to 1901 being precisely the same as those\nwhich actuated the agreement made in that year.\nIt is obvious that the claims for the years prior to the modus vivendi agreement of 1901,\nmust depend upon whatever settlement may be finally achieved. Therefore, the consideration\nof any actual figures for present purposes should apply solely to the period beginning with that\nyear, during which the Minister of Marine and Fisheries entered into an arrangement with\nthe Province, taking the form of a telegram, which, for handy reference, may be quoted as\nfollows :\u00E2\u0080\u0094\n\" Dominion Government quite willing you should assume protection such Provincial fisheries as under Privy Council decision belong to Province. Had no difficulty with Ontario or\nQuebec, except with respect sea-coast fisheries, as to which test case agreed upon between\nDominion and Quebec, pending which we retain control. Suggest similar arrangement with\nBritish Columbia. If decided afterwards in your favour, we to account for net receipts after\npaying fair share administrative expenses. Regarding Fraser River proper to point where it\ndebouches into sea, both Governments have legal right issue licences and exact fees; but I\nwould propose, to avoid conflict, authority Dominion should retain control and account to\nProvince for such proportion of licence fees as may be agreed on, or in case of disagreement\nadjusted by a referee. Beyond mouths of rivers Dominion Government must retain exclusive\ncontrol. If this disputed by Province, Privy Council must decide. Your Statute contains\nprovisions for Provincial regulations similar to those originally contained Ontario Statutes.\nThese are ultra vires. Ontario has repealed them. Would require undertaking your Government allow them remain in abeyance until next session, and then repeal.\"\nBy a tacit understanding, this agreement has since obtained, and the Dominion Government accordingly has continued to administer the licence system on that basis.\nDuring the three fiscal years ending June 30th, 1903, the Dominion Government collected\nrevenue in respect of fishing licences from all sources, whether those licences covered fishing\noperations in the rivers, in the estuaries, or on the bold coast line, and it is not to be forgotten L 14 Correspondence re Fisheries, etc. 1908\nthat in estuaries and on the coast, the Federal Government recognises a clear distinction in its\nclaim to fishing rights, as compared with the river or inland fisheries, claimable by the Province. Indeed it is questionable whether careful inquiry into this point would not reveal the\nfact that the great bulk of all fishing operations under licence from the Dominion is conducted\nin waters outside the proprietary interests of the Province, and therefore within the jurisdiction of the Dominion, for, under the most liberal interpretation of the Privy Council decision,\nthe Province can successfully maintain only such rights as are appurtenant to the soil, and\nthus of a proprietary character. It surely cannot be maintained, with any hope of success,\nthat Provincial rights in respect of the fisheries could extend beyond the limit of proprietary\ninterest.\nThe revenue thus collected by the Dominion, therefore, covers an area transcending the proprietary claim of the Province, and for the three years above\nreferred to, as ending 30th June, 1903, amounts to $137,079.62\nThe expenditure incurred during the same period on account of the regulation\nand protection of the fisheries, including the construction, maintenance, running\nexpenses, etc., of fish-breeding establishments, as well as the construction and\nmaintenance of fisheries patrol steamers, amounted in the aggregate to 212,090.60\nThis leaves an apparent balance for these three years in favour of the Dominion\nas against the Province of 75,010.98\nTo this should be added the difference between the expenditure ($69,062.18)\nand the revenue ($41,758.34) up to the 31st of May of the current fiscal year.... 27,303.84\nShowing a total balance in favour of the Dominion as against British\nColumbiaof $102,314.82\nIn other words, during the period covered by the modus vivendi, that is, for the fiscal\nyears ending 30th June, 1901, 1902 and 1903, and up to the 31st May, 1904, the Dominion\nGovernment has expended in the protection and conservation of the British Columbia sea-\ncoast and inland fisheries a sum of $102,314.82 in excess of the fisheries licence revenue\ncollected from all sources, whether inland, estuary or sea-coast fishing, and whether properly\nclaimable by the Province or debatable under the Privy Council decision.\nThe second claim advanced by the memorandum is, that the Dominion should pay to the\nProvince a proportion of the Halifax Fisheries Award for compensation for the loss sustained\nby the Province as a result of the Treaty of Washington.\nIt has frequently been explained that, in the nature of things, the Province of British\nColumbia can have no claim to participation in this Award, inasmuch as the amouut was paid\nby the United States Government to the Government of Her Britannic Majesty as a compensation for privileges granted United States fishermen on the Atlantic coasts of Canada, in\nexcess of those granted to British subjects by that Treaty.\nThe privileges for which the Award was made applied solely to the operations of United\nStates fishing vessels on the Atlantic coasts of Canada, and the award was in compensation\nfor the concurrent use of certain fisheries and fishing privileges on there particular coasts.\nUnder the provisions of that Treaty, British subjects in the Province of British Columbia were\nnot compelled to share their inshore fisheries with the fishermen of the United States as were\nthe Atlantic fishermen, and must, therefore, be regarded as having no claim to any compensation for the use of the inshore fisheries on the Atlantic coasts.\nThe next suggestion contained in the memorandum is, that the Dominion should agree to\ntransfer the entire control of the salmon and interior fisheries in British Columbia to the\nProvince, the Province agreeing to construct and maintain fish hatcheries, and enforce regulations without cost to the Dominion ; otherwise this question to be referred to a Commission.\nOr, failing the immediate concession by the Dominion to the Province of the entire control of\nthe salmon and interior fisheries, or pending a settlement of the point, the Dominion to agree\nto transfer the control of existing hatcheries, and the propagation of fish, to the Province, the\nProvince agreeing to support and maintain the said hatcheries without cost to the Dominion.\nThe memorandum adds that in such case, the amount claimed by paragraph one should be\nimmediately paid to the Province, the agreement or modus vivendi entered into in 1901 being\nagain renewed and continued for the present year, and also that the Province should be\nconsulted before new regulations are promulgated.\nThis is a proposal which the Dominion is in no way prepared to favourably consider,\ninasmuch as it is entirely opposed to its idea of an adequate settlement of the question, and in\nall its negotiations with the other Provinces affected by the decision of the Imperial Privy 8 Ed. 7 Correspondence re Fisheries, etc. M 15\nCouncil in 1898, it has sought to bring about an adjustment of the case, by which it can\nacquire all rights in respect of proprietary interests in the fisheries that have by that decision\nbeen secured to them.\nThis decision, which separated the proprietary rights from the sole and undoubted right\nof legislation with regard to the fisheries, secured to the Dominion the latter function, and\nunder no circumstances or conditions is it the present intention of the Dominion to abandon\nto any of the Provincial Governments the powers and duties thus involved.\nTherefore, the proposal for the transfer of the entire control of the salmon and interior\nfisheries, as well as of existing fish hatcheries, and any other cognate interests possessed by the\nDominion, is not such as under the conditions obtaining could meet with the approval of the\nFederal Government in any settlement which may be effected between the Provinces and the\nDominion.\nIn concluding these brief comments upon the proposals advanced by your Government,\nI deem it important to impress upon you that in order to obviate any future misunderstanding\nwith regard to the ultimate effect of the modus vivendi, which is only a temporary arrangement, the attitude of the Dominion Government in this connection, of which an intimation is\nafforded by that portion of this communication which explains that in dealing with the other\nProvinces the object has ever been to reach some conclusion by which the Federal Government\nmay secure the undivided control of the fisheries of the Dominion, in order that a definite and\nuniform policy may continue to obtain, looking to the conservation and development of so\nvaluable a national asset.\nI feel that you will agree with me that there can be no difference of opinion as to the vast\nimportance to the general interest of the Dominion of our sea-coast and inland fisheries, which,\nwhile at present prosecuted with much vigour, are capable of such further material development ; and in no place are the possibilities of this development more apparent than in the\nProvince and around the coasts of British Columbia, where practically virgin fisheries of the\ngreatest wealth await the successful exploitation to achieve assured success.\nPossessed as the Dominion Government is, by virtue of the British North America Act,\nof the sole right of making laws and regulations for the protection, conservation and development of the fisheries of Canada, it must be obvious that their best interests can be conserved\nby the exercise of such undivided authority, and I feel that if some arrangement can be reached\nby which the absolute control of these valuable interests, of a proprietary character and otherwise, may be brought within the jurisdiction of the Dominion, it cannot but enure to the\ngeneral benefit and enable the Government to continue and expand measures already initiated\nto bring about a more profitable exploitation and development of the fisheries, and a betterment of the condition of the fishing population, with its attendant influences.\nYours faithfully,\n(Signed) R. Prefontaine.\nVictoria Chambers,\nOttawa, 20th June, 1904.\nHon. Raymond Prefontaine,\nMinister of Marine and Fisheries, Ottawa.\nDear Sir,\u00E2\u0080\u0094Your letter, dated 16th inst., was duly delivered to me on Saturday afternoon. I will summarise it briefly as I understand it.\nFirst, in answer to our claim for settlement of the amounts collected by the Dominion\nGovernment since Confederation, you say that the claim for the years prior to 1901 must\ndepend on final settlement, and since the modus vivendi of 1901, the expenditure on fisheries\nin British Columbia has exceeded the revenue by $102,314.82.\nSecond, that the Dominion will not grant our request to concede the control of the\nfisheries and hatcheries to the Province, even temporarily.\nAnd third, you suggest that the Dominion having the control, the Province should\ntransfer to the Dominion its proprietary rights in the fisheries.\nThe question for me now to consider is what, if anything, is left for me to discuss with\nyou. I would recall to you that on three previous occasions delegates from the British\nColumbia Government have come to Ottawa and discussed this matter of the fisheries with\nyour Government; that our claims have been laid before you both personally and in writing,\nsetting out the figures on which we based our claims, such figures being taken from the reports of your Department, and to which previously no exception had ever been taken; that our\nAttorney-General wrote you fully again on 2lst March last, urging our claims and giving\nfigures, to which no reply was received until the Prime Minister's telegram requesting our\nGovernment to send a delegate to Ottawa to discuss matters, in response to which request I\nam now here.\nYour reply to our request that we be granted the control of the fisheries does not leave\nthat point open for any further discussion on my part.\nYour suggestion that the Province cede to the Dominion its proprietary rights is of so\nimportant and radical a nature that it can only be decided upon by our Government in\nExecutive, and after the most careful consideration. As you have informed me that you\nintend visiting British Columbia next month, I would suggest that a conference be arranged\nbetween you and our Executive in Victoria, when the matter can be discussed. I cannot,\nhowever, leave this part of the subject without pointing out that what you term in your letter\n\"a valuable national asset\" has been decided by the Privy Council to be the property of the\nProvince.\nWe come then to the question of the settlement of our claims for a proportion of the\nrevenues collected by the Dominion. Your letter seems to me to preclude discussion of our\nclaims for the three years prior to 1901, as you say it must depend upon whatever settlement\nmay be finally achieved. I was in hopes that you would be prepared to admit the force of our\ncontention that the reasons for settlement of this part of our claim upon the same basis as for\nthe subsequent years are precisely the same. The Privy Council decided that the proprietary\nrights in the fisheries had belonged to the Province ever since Confederation. It follows,\ntherefore, that whatever revenues the Dominion has derived or collected from the fisheries in\nBritish Columbia have been derived from what was the property of the Province, and therefore, legally and equitably belonged to the Province and not to the Dominion. Even if it be\nstill open for me to discuss this part of the question any further, it is impossible to do so\nwithout the figures, and the same remark applies to our claim for the period subsequent to the\nmodus vivendi of 1901. I can only assume that in the figures given by you in your letter you\nhave included all expenditures on capital account as well as for administration of fisheries and\nhatcheries, which, as was pointed out last year, are not fairly chargeable against these years.\nMay I venture to ask if you will be good enough to furnish me with an itemized statement of\nexpenditures\u00E2\u0080\u0094(I do not mean in detail, but under different headings)\u00E2\u0080\u0094as well of revenues\ncollected prior to, as well as since, the modus vivendi of 1901. If this cannot be handed to\nme to-morrow, may I ask, as I am leaving here on Wednesday morning, that you be good\nenough to forward it as soon as possible to our Premier, Mr. McBride, at Victoria, and the\nmatter could then be discussed when you meet, as I hope you will, our Executive there next\nmonth.\nIn conclusion, I enclose herewith a memorandum of suggestions for amendment of the\nexisting fishery regulations, for which, as the season is advancing rapidly, and the reasons for\nthe changes are so urgent, I would ask your immediate and favourable consideration. I am\nhanding a copy of this Memorandum to Mr. Prince, and Mr. Babcock intends to discuss same\nfully with him.\nYours faithfully,\n(Signed) Fred. J. Fulton,\nProvincial Secretary.\nOffice of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries,\nOttawa, Canada, June 21st, 1904.\nDear Sir,\u00E2\u0080\u0094I have your letter of the 20th, in reply to mine of the 16th instant, on the\nsubject of the claim of British Columbia against the Dominion, arising out of the decision of\nthe Judicial Committee of the Imperial Privy Council in respect of the reference as to fishery\nrights of the Dominion and. the several Provinces, as affected by the \" British North America\nAct\" effecting confederation.\nPrimarily, you summarise the points of my letter and reach the conclusion that with the\nexception of some phases with which you deal, and to which I purpose referring, that there is\npractically little, if anything, left to discuss at the present juncture, and you intimate that the\nsuggestion touching the cession of proprietary rights is so important and so radical in its nature 8 Ed. 7 Correspondence re Fisheries, etc. M 17\nthat it can only be decided upon by your Government in Executive, and then only after the\nmost careful consideration, while you in turn suggest an arrangement for a conference between\nmyself and your Executive, at Victoria, during my proposed early visit to that Province.\nAt this point I should like to refer to a phase upon which it seems to me we are proceeding at present from a somewhat different standpoint. It is evident that you regard the\nPremier's invitation for representation by your Government, in a discussion of Fishery matters, at this moment to be sufficiently comprehensive to embrace an arrival at detailed data,\nwhich would permit of an immediate assessment of the value of the proprietary interests and\njurisdiction, which may eventually be relinquished or acquired on either part, through any\nfinal adjustment which may be reached; whereas, the discussion in question contemplated no,\nimmediate consideration of data or of methods of fixing figures, and thus, at the very outset,\nplacing a specific money value upon the concessions which either might be called upon to make.\nYou are doubtless aware that the main point at issue between the Federal Government\nand the Atlantic Provinces hinged on the claim advanced to the extra-territorial jurisdiction,\nor three-mile limit, which the Dominion regards as wholly distinct from any proprietary\ninterest, which may or may not exist in the right of the Provinces to low water mark,\narguable as appurtenant to the soil.\nIt was in turn suggested that a test case should be instituted in the Courts; that terms\nof reference should be agreed upon to the Supreme Court, or that a means of settlement of\nperhaps broader scope should be agreed upon, without resort to litigation or a finding of the\nCourts on a reference, and it was in order, if possible, to reach some conclusion as a basis of\nprocedure, that the discussion in question was arranged.\nObviously, such a conference was in its character more of a preliminary nature, designed\nto pave the way to the possibility of a consideration of equivalents for concession between the\ncontending interests, rather than an actual assessment thereof, even had a basis been provided.\nSo far as a discussion of the figures for the period extending from the date of British\nColumbia's entry into the Dominion (1871) up to the date of the modus vivendi (1901), is\nconcerned, it is apparent that any consideration thereof must form part of the settlement of the\nwhole question, based upon present or acquired rights, and in the event of any such acquisition\non either side, it may be that the settlement suggested by the modus vivendi, which contemplated no such concessions, will require to be readjusted. However, as requested by you, I\nshall be pleased to furnish the Premier of British Columbia with a statement of the revenue\nand expenditure on account of the Fisheries service in the Province.\nReverting to your suggestion that I should discuss the larger question with the Executive\nof British Columbia, when in Victoria, I may say that I shall be pleased to avail myself of\nthe opportunity, even if the result of such a discussion should only operate to assist in bringing\nabout some definite basis for the achievement of a conclusion of this long-standing disparity of\nright and jurisdiction between the Province and the Dominion.\nYou say you cannot leave this part of the subject without pointing out that what I term\nin my letter as a \"valuable national asset,\" has been decided by the Privy Council to be the\nproperty of the Province. I cannot avoid the conclusion that either I did not make myself\nplain or that you have misinterpreted me, nor can I subscribe to the opinion that the Privy\nCouncil has decided the Canadian fisheries to be the property of the Provinces as such. True,\neach of the Provinces may be said to possess some fisheries of an inland character, of greater or\nlesser value, but the vast wealth of tbe Dominion fisheries, at present but partially developed,\nare essentially those exploited by the deep-sea fishermen, and are of a national and not of a\nprovincial character. These are those which can be more particularly referred to as a national\nasset, the development and betterment of which have recently received considerable attention.\nI have noted your memorandum, containing suggested amendments to the Fishery\nRegulations, which will receive my careful consideration.\nYours, etc.,\n(Signed) R. Prefontaine.\nHon^ Fred. J. Fulton,\nProvincial Secretary of British Columbia,\nVictoria Chambers, Ottawa. M 18 Correspondence re Fisheries, etc. 1908\nReport of Fishery Delegation, 1905.\n[B. C. Sessional Papers, 1905, p. F 39.]\nTo His Honour the Lieutenant-Governor in Council.\nSir :\u00E2\u0080\u0094The undersigned has the honour to report that, as authorised by you in accordance\nwith a request from Sir Wilfrid Laurier, he proceeded to Ottawa, accompanied by Mr. J. P.\nBabcock, Fishery Commissioner, to confer with members of the Dominion Government on\ncertain fishery questions in dispute between the Dominion of Canada and the Province of\nBritish Columbia.\nI reached Ottawa on June 14th, 1904, and at once waited upon the Honourable Raymond\nPrefontaine, Minister of Marine and Fisheries, and arranged with him for a formal interview\nwith himself and the Premier, Sir Wilfrid Laurier, on the next day at 11 a.m.\nAt the interview on the morning of the 15th there were present Sir Wilfrid Laurier,\nHonourable R. Prefontaine, Senator Templeman and Mr. Babcock. I presented the case for\nthe Province, and was followed by Mr. Babcock, who went fully into details. Considerable\ndiscussion followed, which resulted in my being requested to submit a memorandum setting\nout the claims and proposals of our Government, which I accordingly did.\nOur subsequent negotiations were chiefly conducted in writing, and I have the honour of\npresenting herewith, in order, as a report, the correspondence as a whole, from which the\nmain facts in connection with the entire negotiations can easily be gathered.\nI have the honour to be,\nSir,\nYour obedient servant,\nFred. J. Fulton.\nAt Vancouver, B. O, 23rd August, 1904.\nTo the Honourable Richard McBride\nPremier of British Columbia, Victoria, B. C,\nMy Dear Premier,\u00E2\u0080\u0094Referring to our interview, when I had the honour of meeting\nsome of your colleagues on Saturday, the 20th instant, I think\u00E2\u0080\u0094and perhaps you will agree\nwith me\u00E2\u0080\u0094that, pending the settlement of the question of Fisheries between your Government\nand the Dominion of Canada, the modus vivendi accepted by both Governments since the 3rd\nof June, 1901, should be continued in its entirety, but, at the same time, I may be allowed to\nsuggest that, without waiving any of the rights claimed by both Governments, in order to\nfacilitate the successful application of the remedies to be adopted and so strongly recommended\nby the different interested bodies of British Columbia, and so as to put the fishing industry\nin a better position, full control should be assumed by the Department of Marine and\nFisheries for the Dominion by taking over and administering the whole of the Fisheries of\nthe Province so as to meet the seriousness of the situation.\nMr. Babcock, your Provincial Commissioner, would then become our own officer as\nSuperintendent of the British Columbia hatcheries, receiving the same emoluments.\nTrusting that this will meet with your Government's approval and will soon be followed\nby a complete settlement of the question.\nI remain,\nYours very truly,\nR. Prefontaine. 8 Ed. 7 Correspondence re Fisheries, etc. M 19\nFurther Correspondence.\nVictoria, B. C, October 12th, 1904.\nThe Honourable R. Prejontaine,\nMinister of Marine and Fisheries, Ottawa.\nSir,\u00E2\u0080\u0094I have the honour to refer to your letter, dated the 16th day of June, to Mr.\nFulton, President of the Executive Council, and your further letter dated the 23rd August,\naddressed to me, on the subject of the salmon fisheries of this Province.\nThe letter of the 16th of June distinctly declines the proposal of this Government that\nthe management of the salmon fisheries should be transferred to the Province, and suggests\nthat the undivided control of the salmon fisheries should be secured to the Dominion, \" in\norder that a definite and uniform policy may continue to obtain, looking to the conservation\nand development of so valuable a national asset.\"\nThe letter of the 23rd of August is to the same effect, viz. : that \" Full control should be\nassumed by the Department of Marine and Fisheries for the Dominion by taking over and\nadministering the whole of the fisheries of the Province so as to meet the seriousness of the\nsituation.\"\nWith respect to the request that the Province should abandon any rights it may have in\nthe fishery in question, in order that the Dominion may assume control, may I be permitted\nto remind you that under the modus vivendi the Department of Marine and Fisheries has for\nsome years past exercised full control over the salmon fishery, and that the result of the\nexercise of that full control has not been of such a character as to encourage the Provincial\nGovernment to accede to the request contained in your letters, or to justify the Province in\nparting with any power it may possess that will assist in preserving this valuable Provincial\nasset from complete extinction.\nIt follows, then, that I am reluctantly obliged to dissent from some of the statements\ncontained in your letter of the 16th of June, particularly the final one \" that if some arrangement, etc.\"\nI cannot but express the profound regret I feel at the attitude assumed by the Dominion\nGovernment. Nothing in the past can justify the claim that the undivided control of the\nsalmon fishery will, if placed in the hands of the Dominion, enure to the benefit of this\nimportant industry.\nAmong other matters necessary for the preservation of this fishery, the propagation of fish\nstands pre-eminent. In order, then, to do all that the Province can do in conjunction with\nthe Dominion, I have the honour to make the following proposal :\u00E2\u0080\u0094\nThe Province will, at its own cost, continue the present hatchery at Seton Lake, and\nconstruct and maintain another at some convenient spot on the waters of the Fraser River:\nThe Dominion and Provincial hatcheries to be placed under the absolute control of Mr.\nBabcock, with full authority as to engaging and discharging the necessary employees \u00C2\u00BB\nMr. Babcock's salary to be paid jointly by the Dominion and the Province :\nMr. Babcock to make a full report to the Department of Marine and Fisheries, and the\nMinister having control of the Provincial Fisheries.\nIf, in addition to the foregoing proposal, the Dominion erected two new hatcheries on\nthe waters of the Fraser River, and one on Rivers Inlet, a very important step would have\nbeen taken towards preserving the fishery.\nIn any event, it is not, under existing circumstances, and with the harmful experience, of\nthe past, the intention of this Government to part with any rights or powers it may possess\nin relation to the salmon fishery, but, on the contrary, it is proposed at the next session of the\nLegislature to pass such intra vires legislation as will enable the Province to obtain some\nrevenue to devote to the preservation and maintenance of the salmon industry.\nI have the honour to be,\nSir,\nYour obedient servant,\nRichard McBride, Premier. M 20 Correspondence re Fisheries, etc. 1908\nOttawa, October 29 th, 1904.\nDear Sir,\u00E2\u0080\u0094I have to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 12th instant, referring\nto my letter dated 16th June last, to Mr. Fulton, President of the Executive Council, and\nmy further letter to you of the 23rd August, on the subject of the salmon fisheries in the\nProvince of British Columbia, and making certain proposals in connection with fish culture.\nThe question is one which, at the present moment, I cannot take up for decision, as the\nmatters touched in your letter must necessarily be considered as a whole, and I am not just\nnow aware of the standing of the negotiations in the hands of the Department of Justice,\nlooking to a reference of certain questions of right, to the Supreme Court, for a finding.\nYours faithfully,\nR. Prefontaine.\nHonourable Richard McBride,\nPremier of British Columbia, Victoria, B. C.\n(B. C. Sessional Papers, 1935, p. F 47.)\nVictoria, B. C, 10th January, 1905.\nHon. Raymond Prefoidaine,\nMinister Marine and Fisheries, Ottawa.\nOn 19th ultimo I wired you as follows :\u00E2\u0080\u0094\"Kindly send at earliest possible date itemised\nstatement of expenditures and revenue re Fisheries, asked for in my letter 20th June last and\npromised in your reply 21st June.\" No reply jet. May I expect one soon 1\n(Signed) Fred. J. Fulton,\nProvincial Secretary.\nOffice of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, of Canada,\nOttawa, January 12th, 1905.\nDear Sir,\u00E2\u0080\u0094Reverting to our correspondence of June last, and with reference to your\ntelegram of yesterday's date, on the subject of a suggested adjustment of fishery matters\nbetween the Dominion and the Province of British Columbia, I enclose a complete statement\nof the annual expenditure of this Department, under different headings, in connection with\nthe fisheries in your Province, prior and subsequent to the modus vivendi of 1901, as well as a\nstatement of revenues annually collected during the same period, embracing the twenty-eight\nyears from 1876 to 1904.\nYours faithfully,\n(Signed) R. Prefontaine.\nHonourable Frederick J. Fulton,\nProvincial Secretary, Victoria, B. C. 8 Ed. 7\nCorrespondence re Fisheries, etc.\nM 21\nSTATEMENT\nShowing the annual expenditure of, and revenue collected by, the Dominion Government\non account of the fisheries service since Confederation.\nProvince or British Columbia.\nYear.\n1867\n1868\n1869\n1870\n1871\n1872\n1873\n1874\n1875\n1876\n1877\n1878\n1879\n1880\n1881\n1882\n1883\n1884\n1885\n1886\n1887\n1888\n1889\n1890\n1891\n1892\n1893\n1894\n1895\n1896\n1897\n1898\n1899\n1900\n1901\n1902\n1903\n1904\nGeneral\nService.\n635 00\n690 00\n1,423 73\n1,399 92\n1,721 48\n1,599 08\n1,599 92\n2,231 97\n1,437 13\n1,878 53\n5,860 72\n3,661 83\n4,333 63\n3,634 41\n4,320 53\n6,158 17\n5,490 60\n5,283 21\n6,218 74\n6,226 77\n8,841 64\n8,508 79\n8,459 47\n13,662 17\n17,886 36\n18,560 00\n17,808 45\n15,133 65\n$174,665 90\nCruisers.\n32,558 58\n43,742 47\n576,301 05\nFish Breeding\n$ 3,704 31\n11,873 17\n5,405 87\n4,623 35\n5,653 90\n4,933 26\n4,202 61\n3,339 51\n2,896 57\n3,630 68\n3,273 10\n2,869 19\n2,817 02\n2,840 62\n2,389 46\n3,736 14\n2,741 88\n17,709 77\n20,507 00\n23,275 29\n25,040 81\n$157,463 51\nTotal.\n635 00\n690 00\n1,423 73\n1,399 92\n1,721 48\n1,599 08\n1,599 92\n5,936 28\n13,310 30\n7,284 40\n10,484 07\n9,315 73\n9,266 89\n7,837 02\n7,680 04\n9,054 74\n9,121 28\n8,556 31\n9,087 93\n9,043 79\n11,682 26\n10,898 25\n12,195 61\n16,404 05\n35,596 13\n39,067 00\n73,642 32\n83,916 93\n$408,430 46\nRe\n10 00\n672 50\n790 00\n127 50\n365 30\n922 50\n943 50\n6,934 55\n6,416 00\n11,367 50\n12,914 02\n8,192 48\n40,264 00\n25,337 90\n23,517 25\n26,410 75\n39,888 82\n47,864 75\n45,801 75\n53,195 35\n52,960 35\n41,178 00\n42,940 62\n56,904 34\n$545,919 93\nFurther Correspondence.\nOttawa, January 18th, 1906.\nDear McBride,\u00E2\u0080\u0094With reference to the three subjects which we discussed some weeks\nago when you and Mr. Tatlow did me the honour of calling on me, that is to say :\u00E2\u0080\u0094\n1. The Fisheries;\n2. The Peace River Lands ; and\n3. The Indian Reserves,\nI now beg to answer as follows :\n1st. With regard to the Fisheries, we will continue, until otherwise settled, the arrangements now existing between the Dominion and the British Columbia Governments, by which M 22 Correspondence re Fisheries, etc. 1908\nthe Dominion Government will undertake and exercise full jurisdiction over the fisheries in\nBritish Columbia, collect the revenue and bear all the expenditure, subject to an adjustment\nof accounts later on.\nWith regard to hatcheries, the responsibility of this Government, under existing circumstances, to regulate, conserve and propagate the fishing industry being admitted, its obligations\nto provide the cost of necessary hatcheries must also be conceded. It will, therefore, only be consistent with this view that the hatchery built and now being operated by your Government,\nassuming that it is necessary and meets requirements, should be transferred to the Marine and\nFisheries Department, which owns and operates all the other hatcheries in British Columbia.\nThat is also the view of yourself and colleagues, as expressed when in Ottawa a few weeks ago.\nThe other and larger phase of the question, the respective rights of the Dominion and the\nProvince in the fisheries, which it is our earnest wish to bring to a speedy settlement, would\nnot in any way be affected by the acquisition by the Dominion of the Provincial hatchery.\nBefore a transfer could be made there would necessarily be some important details to consider, such, for instance, as the value of the property, the employment by this Government of\nthe present Provincial hatchery officials, &c, which would more readily be determined by\npersonal consultation.\nIf, therefore, this proposition meets with your approval, I will be glad if you will confer,\nin respect of such details, with my colleague, the Hon. W. Templeman, who has been requested\nby me to deal with the matter.\nI am not yet prepared to give you a definite answer as to your request that we should\nrecoup the Province for the building cost of this hatchery, but this is a question as to which I\nwill give you a definite answer after the return of the Minister of Finance, who is now, as you\nknow, in Nova Scotia.\nAs to the other two questions, the Peace River Lands and the Indian Reserves, I would\nask you to be so kind as to put your request in writing, so that, as the matters are new to me,\nT can place them before the Council.\nBelieve me, dear Mr. McBride,\nYours very sincerely,\nWilfrid Laurier.\nHon. Richard McBride,\nPrime Minister, Victoria, B. C.\nVictoria, B. C, February 27th, 1906.\nThe Right Hon.\nSir Wilfrid Laurier, G. C. M. G., P. C,\nPrime Minister of Canada, Ottawa, Ont.\nDear Sir Wilfrid,\u00E2\u0080\u0094In order to facilitate a settlement in regard to the fisheries, the\nProvincial Government is willing to agree to the proposal in your letter of January 18th, and\nalso set out in a letter dated August 23rd, 1904, from the late Minister of Fisheries, that\npending the settlement of tde question of the fisheries between the Dominion and the Federal\nGovernments the modus vivendi accepted by both Governments since the 3rd June, 1901,\nshould be continued, by which, without waiving any of the rights claimed by either Government, the Dominion Government would undertake and exercise full jurisdiction over the\nfisheries in British Columbia, collect the revenue and bear all the expenditures, subject to an\nadjustment of accounts later on.\nThis Government is also willing to transfer to the Dominion Government the hatchery,\nbuilt and now being operated by the Province at Seton Lake, the larger phase of the question,\nthe respective rights of the Dominion and the Province in the fisheries, being in no way affected\nby the acquisition by the Dominion of the Provincial hatchery. In this connection you say\nthat \"the responsibility of the Government (Dominion) under existing circumstances to regulate,\nconserve and propagate the fishing industry being admitted, its obligations to provide the\ncost of necessary hatcheries must also be conceded.\"\nIn taking over the hatchery and assuming full control of the fisheries we believe it but\nright that the Dominion should recompense the Province for the outlay it has been put to in\nconnection with this work. 8 Ed. 7 Correspondence re Fisheries, etc. M 23\nThe expenditure by the Province on Seton Lake Hatchery, Rivers Inlet Hatchery, Fish\nLadder at Quesnel Lake Dam, and investigation of young salmon in fresh waters of the Province\nfrom 16th October, 1901, to 31st December, 1905, is as follows:\u00E2\u0080\u0094\nSeton Lake.\nSalary of Deputy Commissioner from Oct. 16th, 1901, to Dec. 31st, 1905. .$12,625 00\nTravelling expenses 2,150 83\nConstruction and maintenance of hatchery at Seton Lake 42,583 07\n$57,358 90\nRivers Inlet.\nConstruction and salary of field assistant $ 1,107 71\nFish ladder at Quesnel Lake dam construction 4,140 30\nInvestigation of life of young salmon in fresh water of the Province, salary\nassistant, superintendent and expenses 2,744 58\n$65,381 49\nAll this expenditure was essential to the carrying on of the work of conserving and\npropagating the salmon, and was undertaken by the Province as the result of Sir Louis Davies'\nproposal of June 3rd, 1901.\nIt may be pointed out that at Birkenhead River the Dominion Hatchery now occupies\nthe site of the experimental plant erected by the Province, and that the Dominion Government has all the advantages of the field-notes taken by the Provincial official in its construction of the hatchery at Rivers Inlet.\nThis Government also asks that the suggestion of the late Minister of Fisheries, in his\nletter of August 23rd, 1904, be adopted, that Mr. Babcock, Provincial Commissioner, become\nthe Dominion officer \" as Superintendent of the British Columbia hatcheries, receiving the\nsame emoluments,\" in order that the agreement entered into with Mr. Babcock by the\nProvincial Government may be carried out.\nAs to the details of the transfer, this Government will be pleased to confer with Senator\nTempleman, as you suggest.\nRegarding the main question, the respective rights of the Dominion and the Province in\nthe fisheries, and the amount which the Dominion should pay to the Province in respect of\ncollections from licences, as mentioned in the arrangement made with Sir Louis Davies in 1891,\nthere seems to be no reason why a speedy settlement should not be made.\nAs requested in the letter, dated March 21st, 1904, from the Attorney-General of the\nProvince to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, I would suggest with respect to the settlement of sums due the Province, in conformity with Sir Louis Davies' wire of June 3rd, 1901,\nand subsequent agreements, that steps be taken at once towards the appointment of a referee\nand the submission of the entire question, and that you authorise some one to confer with the\nGovernment of British Columbia relative to the respective rights of the Province and the\nDominion, in order to see if any conclusion entirely satisfactory can be reached, and, if not,\nthat proceedings can be taken to obtain the opinion of the Judicial Committee of the Privy\nCouncil as to our respective claims.\nThere does not seem to be any reason why this matter should remain longer in abeyance,\nnor is it necessary to refer at length to the efforts that have been made by the Province, as\nshewn by the correspondence that has passed between the two Governments to secure a settlement.\nBelieve me, dear Sir Wilfrid,\nVery sincerely,\nRichard McBride,\nPremier. M 24 Correspondence re Fisheries, etc. 1908\n[Telegram.]\nVictoria, May llth, 1906.\nRight Hon. Sir Wilfrid Laurier :\nWhat is prospect closing arrangement with your Government for transfer Provincial\nhatchery and Commissioner Babcock, as per negotiations by correspondence with Hon. Temple-\nman ?\nRichard McBride.\n[Telegram.]\nOttawa, Ont., May 14th, 1906.\nHon. Richard McBride, Victoria :\nYour two telegrams received. I have referred matter of hatchery to the Minister of\nFisheries. With regard to Peace River lands, I understand from Interior Department that it\nit will not be possible to complete surveys before first of October.\nWilfrid Laurier.\n[Telegram.]\nOttawa, Ont., May 17th, 1906.\nHon. Richard McBride, Victoria:\nIn view of the meeting within two or three months of representatives of the Provinces and\nthe Dominion to consider all questions at issue, is deemed advisable to then take up and settle\nthe whole question of the British Columbia fisheries. Trust this view will meet your approval.\nWilfrid Laurier.\n[Telegram.]\nVictoria, May 29th, 1907.\nHon. W. Templeman,\nActing Minister Marine and Fisheries, Ottaiva.\nRumoured that Dominion Government has leased fishing in Cowichan Bay to Company.\nProtest emphatically on account of injury to fishing in Cowichan River, and also because it\nis an encroachment on Provincial rights.\nR. G. Tatlow,\nActing Premier.\nOffice of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries of Canada,\nOttawa, May 31st, 1907.\nHon. R. G. Tatlow, Acting Premier, Victoria, B. C.\nDear Sir,\u00E2\u0080\u0094I have your telegram of 29th instant, in the following terms :\u00E2\u0080\u0094\n\" Rumoured that Dominion Government has leased fishing in Cowichan Bay to Company.\nProtest emphatically on account injury to fishing in Cowichan River, and also because it is\nencroachment on Provincial rights.\"\nWhile the Federal Government is disposed to give the views of your Government every\nconsideration, I may say that the view held of the lease in question is entirely at variance\nwith that expressed in your telegram.\nIt is confidently expected that instead of having the injurious effect upon the fisheries of\nCowichan River which you appear to anticipate, the lease in question will have precisely the\nopposite effect and prove of great benefit to the river, contributing to the supply of those\nclasses of fish which sportsmen are anxious to see propagated, and at the same time permitting\nparticipation in and maintenance of a commercial enterprise, tending to the general development and advancement of the community.\nThe lease is conditional on the maintenance by the lessees of a salmon hatchery of the\ncapacity of ten million eggs, and the lessees are bound to provide space in the hatchery for\nsuch quantity of steelheads and spring salmon as this Department may desire to breed therein, 8 Ed. 7 Correspondence re Fisheries, etc. M 21\nin the angling interest. No steelheads are permitted to be taken, and must be liberated alive\nif incidentally captured ; also, spring salmon may not be taken before the 1st July, and any\nsuch captured before that date are to be liberated alive.\nTouching that portion of your telegram which refers to the lease as an encroachment on\nProvincial rights, I may say that the Department cannot share your view in this respect.\nYou are aware that in the year 1901, following the decision of the Privy Council, the\nAttorney-General for the Province introduced a Bill before the Legislative Assembly, entitled\n\"The British Columbia Fisheries Act, 1901,\" which trenched largely upon the functions of\nthe Dominion Government in essaying to legislate for the protection and preservation of the\nfisheries, and, among other things, it provided for the issue of certain licences and leases.\nThe Minister of Marine and Fisheries for the time being called the attention of the Attorney-\nGeneral of your Province to this fact, which resulted in an arrangement for the repeal of the\nProvincial Act where it was found to infringe upon Federal rights, and a modus vivendi was\nentered into by which the Federal Government was to continue the granting of fishery licences\nas heretofore, and to account to the Provincial Government for any proportion of the revenues\nwhich a final settlement of the question might reveal to belong to the Province.\nWhile there may be some question for final adjustment with regard to the issue of leases\nand licences, the gravest complications are likely to occur if it is possible to have a divided\njurisdiction in this respect, pending the event of a definite adjustment.\nI may add that the modus vivendi entered into in 1901 has since continued, and this\nDepartment was certainly under the impression that the leases and licences in respect of any\nkind of fishing operations were to be administered by the Federal Government, an accounting\nfor the fees which might be held to be claimable by the Province to be made eventually.\nThe issue of the lease in question is, therefore, not at variance with the understanding of\nthis Department as to the scope of the modus vivendi, and the wisdom of keeping the issue of\nleases and licences under undivided control seems to be obvious.\n(Signed) W. Templeman,\nActing Minister.\nVictoria, B. C, June 7th, 1907.\nHon. Wm. Templeman,\nMinister of Marine and Fisheries, Ottawa.\nSir,\u00E2\u0080\u0094I am in receipt of your letter of the 31st May and regret that I cannot coincide\nwith your views that the lease of the fishing in Cowichan Bay will have other than an injurious\neffect, and in this connection I am enclosing herewith a memorandum embodying the views of\nthe Provincial Fisheries Commissioner, Mr. J. P. Babcock, showing that he feels very strongly\non the subject,\u00E2\u0080\u0094a feeling which is unanimously shared by the residents of the district affected.\nI would also refer you to the evidence taken before the Fisheries Commission last year, in\nwhich you will see that your own Inspector, Mr. Taylor, pronounced against allowing fishing\nin Cowichan Bay.\nWith respect to the present position of the modus vivendi, I might point out that the\narrangement arrived at in the year 1901 was only temporary and has been renewed from year\nto year, this Province having time after time made representations as to the necessity of the\nlong-promised accounting and settlement of the question in dispute.\nWe were informed by you that it was the intention to finally dispose of all these matters\nat the Conference of Provincial Premiers in October last. No communication has been received\nfrom you since that time and no request as to the renewal of the modus vivendi; we feel free,\ntherefore, to take such action as appears to us most desirable in the case, as under the present\ncircumstances the fisheries interests of the Province appear liable to be injuriously affected.\nConsequently, we have issued a Proclamation in the British Columbia Gazette of the 6th June,\n1907, bringing into force the British Columbia Fisheries Act of 1901 and amending Acts.\nI would call your attention to section 8 of the Amending Act of 1902, which provides\nthat we may prohibit fishing in any waters within the Province, excepting under authority of,\na fishing lease, permit or licence, granted by virtue of our Act.\nNo objection has ever been taken by the Federal Authorities to the Act of 1902, and we\ntherefore feel at liberty to enforce its provisions.\nI have, etc.,\nR. G. Tatlow,\nActing Premier. M 26 Correspondence re Fisheries, etc. 1908\nVictoria, B. C, November 22nd, 1907.\nThe Right Hon. Sir Wifrid Laurier, B.C., G.C.M.G.,\nPrime Minister of Canada, Ottawa.\nDear Sir Wilfrid,\u00E2\u0080\u0094Permit me to draw your attention to the position of the Government of British Columbia with respect to the important question of the Fisheries, and to remind\nyou that although for a number of years past the Province has been anxious and willing to\ncome to some settlement with the Dominion, this desirable end has not been attained.\nThat the delay in coining to a definite result is through no fault of the Government of\nBritish Columbia may be gathered from a perusal of the correspondence between the Dominion\nand the Province, the main points of which I beg briefly to recall.\nWhen in a telegram dated June 1st, 1901, the then Minister of Marine and Fisheries,\nSir Louis Davies, was informed by the Attorney-General of British Columbia that the Government of British Columbia was ready to assume the duties defined in the judgment of the Privy\nCouncil in respect to the fisheries, it was proposed by the Dominion, and accepted by the\nProvince, that the question of the sea-coast fisheries should for the meantime remain in abeyance, the Dominion remaining in control pending the settlement of a test case, while, as regards\nthe Provincial rivers, the Dominion should collect licences for the season and account to the\nProvince for such proportion as might be agreed upon, or, in case of disagreement, adjusted by\na referee. This agreement is set out in the telegram from Sir Louis Davies to Hon. D. M.\nEberts, of June 3rd, 1901, and the reply dated June 15th of the same year.\nIn April of the ensuing year the Province asked for an accounting of its share of the\nrevenue collected ; but, though the same modus vivendi has been continued from year to year\nand the Province has repeatedly requested that steps be taken to appoint a referee in conformity\nwith Sir Louis Davies' wire and subsequent agreements, this has not been done by the\nDominion.\nIn this connection I might refer particularly to my letter to you of February 27th, 1906,\nwherein I distinctly asked that steps be taken at once towards the appointment of a referee\nto settle the amount due the Province under the modus vivendi entered into in 1901 and succeeding years; and I now again ask that this phase of the question be adjusted.\nWith regard to the larger question of the respective rights of the Province and the\nDominion in the fisheries, this Government has continually urged that steps be taken to come\nto a conclusion. In March, 1904, in a letter to the Minister of Marine and Fisheries, from\nthe Hon. Charles Wilson, Attorney-General, it was again urged that the Dominion should\nauthorise some one to confer with the Government of British Columbia relative to the respective\nrights in the fisheries, and, if a conclusion was not reached, that proceedings be taken to obtain\nthe opinion of the Judicial Committee of the Privy Council as to the respective claims.\nThe same year the Hon. Fred. J. Fulton, accompanied by Mr. J. P. Babcock, Provincial\nFisheries Commissioner, was sent to Ottawa by this Government as a delegation to confer with\nthe members of the Dominion Government with a view to a settlement of the fisheries question.\nAgain, in 1905, Hon. Mr. Tatlow, the Finance Minister, and I discussed this matter\nwith you at Ottawa, when you promised that the matter would have immediate attention ;\nand on February 27th, 1906, I wrote urging that a settlement of the entire question be\nreached by means of a referee, or, failing that, by obtaining the opinion of the Privy Council;\nbut up to the present time the matter seems no nearer a settlement.\nIt is true that on October 24th of the present year the Hon. Wm. Templeman, while in\nVictoria, discussed the matter of Fisheries with myself and Hon. W. J. Bowser, the Attorney-\nGeneral and Commissioner of Fisheries. He stated then that he had no authority to deal with\nthe matter, but promised a communication in due course. I may add that more than four\nweeks have passed since then without any answer being received.\nIt will be seen, therefore, from the brief reference I have made to the matter, that it is\nnot from any lack of diligence on the part of this Government that a settlement has not been\narrived at with the Dominion.\nI now beg to inform you that the Government of British Columbia, after careful consideration, has decided to exercise its jurisdiction in the fisheries in so far as that power\nappertains to the Province.\nI am, etc.,\nRichard McBride. 8 Ed. 7 Correspondence re Fisheries, etc. M 27\n[Telegrams.]\nOttawa, Feb. 10th, 1908.\nHon. R. McBride, Victoria, B.C. :\nWith reference to your communication of 22nd November concerning agent, Canadian\nGovernment have appointed S. T. Bastedo agent to confer with you on matters at issue. He\nwill leave Ottawa for Victoria in a few days and before end of next week.\n(Signed) Wilfrid Laurier.\nSir Wilfrid Laurier, Ottawa, Ont. :\nYour telegram February 8th received. Will be pleased to see Mr. Bastedo when he\nreaches Victoria.\n(Signed) Richard McBride.\nRe Foreshore.\nVictoria, B. C, October 25th, 1907.\nThe Secretary, Department of the Interior, Ottawa, Can. :\nSir,\u00E2\u0080\u0094I have the honour to advise you that my attention has been directed to the fact\nthat the Dominion authorities have issued a foreshore grant or lease over foreshore lands at\nThetis Cove, on the east side of Esquimalt Harbour, the name of the lessee being F. Betterton,\nof the B. F. Graham Lumber Company.\nI have to enter a protest against the action of the Dominion authorities in the granting\nof this lease, upon the ground that Thetis Cove is not now and never has been used for\nharbour purposes, and for this reason the foreshore is under the jurisdiction of this\nGovernment.\nI have further to point out that by virtue of jurisdiction over foreshore at Thetis Cove\nbeing vested in this Government, I issued a lease over certain foreshore lands at Thetis Cove\nseveral months ago for the purpose of oyster culture, and that the action of the Dominion\nauthorities in issuing a subsequent lease over the same foreshore must result in very serious\ncomplications.\nI have, etc.,\n(Signed) Fred. J. Fulton,\nChief Commissioner of Lands aud Works.\nOttawa, 7th November, 1907.\nThe Chief Commissioner of Lands and Works,\nVictoria, B. C.\nSir,\u00E2\u0080\u0094I beg to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 25th ultimo, No. 20,259/07,\naddressed to the Secretary of the Department of the Interior, and by him transferred to\nthis Department for attention, with reference to the application of the B. F. Graham Lumber\nCompany, Limited, for a grant or lease of certain foreshore at Thetis Cove, on the east side of\nEsquimalt Harbour.\nIn reply, I am to state that Thetis Cove, being part of a public harbour, is under the\njurisdiction of the Dominion Government, and in these circumstances any grant or lease of\nforeshore lands or water lots in that cove must be made by them, and not by the Provincial\nauthorities.\nI am, etc.,\n(Signed) F. Gourdeau,\nDeputy Minister of Marine and Fisheries. M 28 Correspondence re Fisheries, etc. 1908\nVictoria, B. O, November 30th, 1907.\nF. Gourdeau, Esq.,\nDeputy Minister of Marine and Fisheries, Ottawa.\nRe Thetis Cove.\nSir,\u00E2\u0080\u0094I have the honour to acknowledge receipt of your letter of the 7th instant, in which\nyou state that Thetis Cove, being part of a public harbour, is under the jurisdiction of the\nDominion Government. I must join issue with you on this point, as our contention is that\nit does not follow that every portion of the area included within any indentation marked on\nthe maps as a harbour necessarily forms part of such harbour. Whether it does or not is a\nquestion of fact in each case, and in the present case we contend that Thetis Cove is much too\nshallow to be used for harbour purposes and never was used as such, and, consequently, it\ndoes not form part of Esquimalt Harbour and is within the jurisdiction of the Provincial\nGovernment.\nI have, etc.,\n(Signed) Fred. J. Fulton,\nChief Commissioner of Lands and Works.\nOttawa, 7th December, 1907.\nThe Chief Commissioner of Lands and Works,\nVictoria, B. C.\nSir,\u00E2\u0080\u0094I beg to acknowledge the receipt of your letter of the 30th ultimo, with further\nreference to the question of jurisdiction in regard to the leasing of water lots in Thetis Cove.\nIn reply, I may say that this Department cannot see its way to accepting your view of\nthe matter.\nI am, etc.,\n(Signed) F. Gourdeau,\nDeputy Minister of Marine and Fisheries.\nOffice of the Minister of Marine and Fisheries of Canada,\nOttawa, February 1st, 1908.\nDear Sir,\u00E2\u0080\u0094On the llth March last I wrote to you that it had come to the knowledge of\nthe Department that since the Privy Council decision several leases of oyster areas had been\ngranted by your Government, apparently under the authority of section 41 of the Land Act of\nthe Province, and referred to the modus vivendi arrangement of 1901, according to which the\nDominion was under the impression that all leases and licences, including those for oyster\nareas, were to be administered by the Federal Government, and the fees thereon ultimately held\nto be claimable by the Province to be accounted for, but that the action of the Province\ncreated a divided control at variance with the spirit of the modus vivendi and the final settlement it contemplated.\nI also pointed out with regard to leases for such areas in public harbours, that there could\nbe no question as to the sole right remaining with the Federal Government to grant such\nprivileges.\nTo this you replied on the 25th March last that you had submitted the letter to the\nExecutive, and that the conclusion reached was that the question is on a very different footing\nfrom that of Fishery Regulations, which was the only matter dealt with by the modus vivendi;\nthat British Columbia claimed the oyster areas to be the property of the Province, except,\npossibly, where they were situated in public harbours, and as in the case of fish-trap sites the\nProvince takes the position that the Dominion has no power or authority to deal with the\ngranting of leases for the same, and that it cannot concede to the Dominion, even temporarily,\nthe right to deal with Provincial property.\nI may say that this Government cannot but regard the leases issued to Colonel Alfred\nMarkham for areas in Esquimalt harbour for the cultivation of oysters otherwise than as\nencroachment upon the property rights of the Dominion under the Privy Council decision, and\nordinarily calling for some immediate action on its part. 8 Ed. 7 Correspondence re Fisheries, etc. M 29\nIt is the intention, however, of the Federal Government to at once appoint and empower\na delegate to visit the several Provinces of the Dominion to discuss the question at issue\nbetween them and the Dominion with regard to this fishery case, and it is expected that this\ndelegate will proceed within the next few days to British Columbia, for the purpose of taking\nup with the accredited representatives of your Government a full discussion of the questions\nat issue in this regard, with a view to reaching some basis for settlement to be reported to the\nFederal Government; but in the meantime I desire to register the protest of this Department\nagainst the action of the Local Government in issuing leases for areas for the cultivation of\noysters in public harbours, which are essentially the property of the Dominion.\nYours faithfully,\nL. P Brodeau.\nvictoria B. C:\nPrinted by Richard Wolfenden, I.S.O., V.D., Printer to the King's Most Excellent Majesty.\n1908."@en . "Legislative proceedings"@en . "J110.L5 S7"@en . "1908_28_M1_M29"@en . "10.14288/1.0064432"@en . "English"@en . "Vancouver : University of British Columbia Library"@en . "Victoria, BC : Government Printer"@en . "Images provided for research and reference use only. For permission to publish, copy or otherwise distribute these images please contact the Legislative Library of British Columbia"@en . "Original Format: Legislative Assembly of British Columbia. Library. Sessional Papers of the Province of British Columbia"@en . "RETURN Of copies of Correspondence showing the contentions and claims of the Province against the Dominion, or vice versa, in regard to Fisheries, Hatcheries, Foreshore. June 1st, 1901, to February 12th, 1908."@en . "Text"@en . ""@en .