<3fn tfie ^uprtmt Court of jSriiisI] Columbia (BEFORE THE HONOURABLE THE CHIEF JUSTICE) No 0843 Smithers Registry Smithers, B.C. March 17. 1989 BETWEEN: DELGAMUUKW, also known as KEN MULDOE, suing on his own behalf and on behalf of all other members of the HOUSE OF DELGAMUUKW, and others, Plaintiffs; AND: HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA, Defendants, CROSS-EXAMINATION ON AFFIDAVIT OF STANLEY MORRIS HJ S. RUSH, Esq; D.M. MACKENZIE, Esq; D.A. MACAULAY, Q.C. Appearing for the Plaintiffs Appearing for HMQ of the Province of British Columbia Appearing for the Attorney- General of Canada INDEX WITNESSES FOR THE PLAINTIFFS MORRIS, STANLEY (Plaintiff) Cross-examination by Mr. Macaulay Re-examination by Mr. Rush PAGE 1 10 INDEX TO EXHIBITS Number Description Page Number 669-1 Affidavit of Stanley Morris dated March 16, 1989 1 669-2 Affidavit of George Holland sworn March 16, 1989 1 11 1 S. MORRIS (Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay 1 March 17, 1989 2 SMITHERS, B.C. 3 4 (INTERPRETER: George Holland) 5 6 STANLEY MORRIS, one of the Plaintiffs 7 herein, having been duly sworn, 8 testified as follows: 9 10 MR. RUSH: Now, just before we get underway, apparently there 11 was a misnumbering in the affidavit that was signed on 12 March the 12th, and Mr. Grant has resworn the 13 affidavit and I have a corrected copy. I don't know 14 if you have these copies or not. Anyway, I understand 15 we didn't get the corrected ones here. This is a 16 second one, or the original, if you want to have it 17 marked. 18 MR. MACAULAY: Yes. 19 MR. RUSH: And I also have translator affidavits. We did have 20 one of these prepared. I'd like to have this marked. 21 MR. MACAULAY: Yes. This affidavit hasn't been marked yet as an 22 exhibit? 23 MR. RUSH: No. 24 MR. MACAULAY: What's the next exhibit number in the sequence of 25 the trial? 26 MR. WOLF: Nine something. 27 MR. RUSH: Did you want to do this in the sequence that we 28 started this morning in marking it in the — as a 2 9 component of the Jimmy Morris affidavit? 3 0 MR. MACAULAY: Yes. 31 MR. RUSH: All right. So, the Morris — Jimmy Morris affidavit 32 is marked as Exhibit 669. 33 MR. MACAULAY: Fine. 3 4 MR. RUSH: Shall we do that, make the affidavit of Stanley 35 Morris March 16th, 1989 as Exhibit 669-1? 36 MR. MACAULAY: One. 37 3 8 (EXHIBIT 669-1: Affidavit of Stanley Morris dated 39 March 16, 1989) 40 41 MR. RUSH: I would like the affidavit of the translator Mr. 42 George Holland sworn the 16th of March '89 to be 43 Exhibit 669-2. 44 45 (EXHIBIT 669-2 : Affidavit of George Holland sworn 46 March 16, 19 89) 47 2 S. MORRIS (Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay 1 MR. RUSH: And Mr. Morris will require translation. Mr. Holland 2 is here to translate on his behalf. 3 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACAULAY: 5 Q Your name is Stanley Morris? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And your chief's name is Caspit? 8 A • Yes. 9 Q And your house is the house of Goohlaht? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And your clan is Gilseyhu? 12 A Yes. 13 Q You swore an affidavit on the 16th of March of 1989 in 14 connection with one of your house's territories? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And before you swore this affidavit did you review a 17 draft of it with either Marvin George or someone else 18 on behalf of the Tribal Council? 19 A I went through it myself and then after with the 20 translator and with Peter. 21 Q And you read the affidavit of Jimmy Morris, a chief in 22 the house of Madeek? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Is Jimmy Morris your father? 25 A Yes. 26 Q And he's in the Gitdumden clan? 27 A Yes. 28 Q He is still alive? 29 A Yes. 3 0 Q How old is your father? 31 A He' s 7 5 now. 32 Q And how old are you? 33 A Forty-five. 3 4 Q How many years of school did you take? 3 5 A I quit early because during the hard times my mom 36 went —passed away, so I had to get out to work 37 early. 3 8 Q Well, how many grades of school did you complete? 3 9 A Grade five I quit. 40 Q And where do you live? 41 A Moricetown. 42 Q And what is your occupation? 43 A Logging. I'm a logger. 44 Q What company or partnership or firm do you work with 45 or for? 46 A Kya Wiget has their own sawmill and that's who I've 47 been working for for the last four years. 3 S. MORRIS (Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay 1 Q That's the sawmill owned by the band council? 2 A Ye s. 3 Q And before you worked for that sawmill, what was your 4 employment? 5 . A I was a skidder operator for Fink's Sawmill. 6 Q Is that a sawmill near Moricetown or near — 7 A Was near. 8 MR. RUSH: I think you should answer in Wet'suwet'en or English, 9 whatever you feel comfortable in, but I think if you 10 go in Wet'suwet'en you should continue in 11 Wet'suwet'en, okay? 12 THE WITNESS: Like in company names, the company names I can't 13 translate into English — I mean, Wet'suwet'en. 14 MR. MACAULAY: Well, Mr. Morris knows the English company names 15 and obviously he's going to have to use them and then 16 you just repeat them. That's all. 17 MR. RUSH: Yes. 18 MR. MACAULAY: 19 Q Because there is- no Wet'suwet'en company name, but 20 that happens. Often numerals, for instance, dates, 21 witnesses always use dates in English. 22 A I was just translating what he said. 23 Q Yes. 24 A Okay. 25 Q So shall we go on, and if you'll ask the question 26 again, what the names of the companies are or sawmills 27 that he worked for before he worked for the Moricetown 2 8 Sawmill? 29 A I worked for Fink's Sawmill for about 16 years. 3 0 Q And before that what was your employment? 31 A I worked for Harry Hagman1s Sawmill in Houston for 32 four years. When they sold out I went to Houston 33 Forest Products. 3 4 Q Did you ever work or live outside the Wet'suwet'en 35 lands? 36 A Quite a few times we work up — during breakup we go 37 work up in the Nass camp for about two months. 3 8 Q Is the Nass camp a lumber or logging operation? 39 A Logging. 40 Q Did you ever do any commercial fishing? 41 A No. 42 Q Does your house have a fishing site at Moricetown? 43 A They have a smokehouse down there. That's where — 44 the place where they fish. I don't know anything 45 about it. 46 Q Have you ever fished using a gaff at Moricetown? 47 A No. 4 S. MORRIS (Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay 1 Q Have you ever fished at Hagwilget? 2 A No. 3 Q Did your house have a long house at Hagwilget at one 4 time? 5 A There might have been. I was too young myself. 6 Q Was Jimmy Thomas Caspit at one time? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And do you know when he died? 9 A 19 83. 10 Q And did you take the name Caspit when he died? 11 A I — I received that name before. 12 Q Did Jimmy Thomas give up the name Caspit? 13 A He was getting pretty old and he was unable to attend 14 a feast. That was one of the reasons why. 15 Q So the answer is yes, he did give up the name before 16 he died? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And what year did he give up the name and you — what 19 year did you take the name at a feast? 20 A '77 is when it was discussed amongst the chiefs and 21 then in '78, fall, I took the name. 22 Q Was it the chiefs of your house or all the chiefs of 23 your clan who discussed this matter? 24 A Sylvester and Samooh. 25 MR. RUSH: S-a-m-o-o-h. 26 THE WITNESS: And translator's father, and two chiefs from — 27 that sit across from the — who were Gitdumden. They 2 8 were the ones that talked about it. 2 9 MR. MACAULAY: 3 0 Q What house did Sylvester belong to? 31 A Laksamshu I think. I might be wrong. 3 2 Q Laksamshu? 33 A Laksamshu. I might be wrong. 3 4 Q So he may be of a different clan than you are? 3 5 A Sylvester was like a son to the former Caspit and that 36 is why he was speaking for this transaction. 37 Q And Samooh, was he in the Birch Bark House? 38 A Yes. 3 9 Q And Mr. Holland, what house was he in? 40 A I believe he was from the Tsayu clan and they sit 41 towards the middle along with Dan. 42 Q And then you say there were two Gitdumden chiefs. Do 43 you know why that particular group was chosen to 44 discuss'the matter, the matter of Caspit giving his 45 name up and someone else succeeding to it? 46 A That is traditional way in the feast when there's 47 ' going to be a name taken. Sometimes it takes up to 5 S. MORRIS (Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay 1 six months to a year, and they talk about it before 2 the name is taken. 3 Q And when the decision was made to approve the proposal 4 that Caspit give up his name and that a new Caspit be 5 named, who made the decision; what chief or chiefs? 6 A There was Goohlaht and Big and myself. We got ready 7 for it and the time was set and that's when I took the 8 name. 9 Q What was your name before you took the name Caspit? 10 A I sat in front where some of the people that didn't 11 have names sat, and that's where I was seated and I 12 helped out whenever I was needed. 13 Q Then you didn't have a chief's name before you took 14 Caspit? 15 A No. 16 Q What are the, apart from the Goohlaht and your name 17 Caspit, what are the other chief's names in the Thin 18 House? 19 A I just know some of the ones would be names like 20 Knedebeas, Noostel, and Lucy, who's Goohlaht. 21 Q But Knedebeas is not a name in the Thin House, is it? 22 A No. We are all sitting together within the clan. 23 MR. MACAULAY: Are you the second chief in the Thin House? 24 MR. RUSH: Do you mean second behind somebody else, like in 2 5 order of rank? 26 MR. MACAULAY: 27 Q In order of rank behind Goohlaht, who I understand is 2 8 the head chief. 29 A It's Knedebeas and then myself and Samooh. 3 0 Q But Knedebeas is not a member of the Thin House at 31 all? 32 A What — I understand what you're saying is when you're 33 in your territory, but in the feast hall you all sit 3 4 together. 3 5 Q Is Knedebeas a member of the Gilseyhu clan? 36 A Yes. 37 Q Who's the head chief of the Dark House? 3 8 A It was probably Noostel and Knedebeas. 39 Q And who's the head chief of the Birch Bark House? 40 A Samooh. 41 Q Was Jimmy Thomas, the former Caspit, a trapper? 42 A Yes. 43 Q Are you a trapper? 44 A I've trapped some, but not on my own. 45 Q Have you ever spent a winter trapping? 46 A Yes, I did up in Telkwa as Nege'deldes. 47 Q Was that when you were very young? S. MORRIS (Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 6 A 7 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 Q 13 14 A 15 Q 16 17 18 A 19 20 Q 21 A 22 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 A 27 Q 28 29 A 30 Q 31 A 32 Q 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 Q 37 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 A 45 Q 46 47 A Yes. How old were you when you were trapping up on Telkwa? I was about 24. Was that before you started your career in logging in the lumber, industry? Yes, it was about the time when the bigger companies were starting to come in. That trapline was in your father's territory, was it? No. The Telkwa I'm talking about. It was my mother-in-law. Did you ever trap in the Nanika Lake or Nanika River area? No. Do you know whether or not Jimmy Thomas had a registered trapline there, Nanika Lake and the Nanika River area? Yeah, he — he held a trapline in a white man's way out there. You mean by that he had a registered trapline? After the Second World War they made everybody accept things like that in the white man's way. Did Jimmy Thomas become enfranchised? Yes. And did he then sell his trapline? No. Did you — did you or did you not hear that he sold a trapline to a Mr. John Wall? No, I never heard him talk about it. Do you know Mrs. Jack Joseph? Yes. Is she a member of your house? Yes. Is she a daughter of Chief Jimmy Thomas? Sister. Sister. And Estelle Michell, the wife of Bazil Michell, do you know her? Yes. Is she a member of your house? Yes. And what relationship was she to Chief Jimmy Thomas? I don't know. Do you know Harvey Scott? No. Do you know who was the present registered owner of the trapline in the Nanika Lake, Nanika River area? No. 7 S. MORRIS (Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 5 A 6 Q 7 8 A 9 Q 10 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 15 16 17 Q 18 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 Q 25 A 26 Q 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 Q 31 A 32 Q 33 34 A 35 Q 36 A 37 38 Q 39 40 A 41 42 Q 43 44 A 45 46 Q 47 The answer is no? Yes. Does — now, Nanika Lake is in the territory described in Jimmy Morris', your father's, affidavit? What was that again? Well, Nanika Lake is in the Goohlaht territory described in Jimmy Morris' affidavit? Yes. And does any member of your house trap there now around Nanika Lake? No. And why is that? I don1t know why they didn1t go out there anymore, but during the 1950's my father and them all — they all didn't go out anymore because the price of fur was low at the time. Now, another part of the Goohlaht territory described in Jimmy Morris' affidavit includes Atna Lake? Yes. Did you know Arthur and Joseph Seymour? Yes. And did you know what clan they belonged to? No. Were they sons of Big Seymour? Yes. And they were brothers, Arthur and Joseph? Yes. Do you know Frank Jimmy? Yes. And what clan does he belong to? Gitdumden. And do you know what house in Gitdumden clan he belonged to, Frank Jimmy? No, I don't know. Was his father Antoine Jimmy? I didn't hear anything about him because he passed on before my time. Did you know if Antoine Jimmy was trapping in the Atna Lake area? I heard of him going out with somebody out there, but I didn't know about them trapping out there. Did Frank Jimmy trap in that area or the Atna Lake area? All I know is that he went out there with my dad and J immy Thoma s. Do you know if Frank Jimmy was registered on a trapline in the Atna Lake area? S. MORRIS (Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay 1 A No. 2 Q Did you know if Arthur Seymour was registered on the 3 same trapline on the Atna Lake area after Frank Jimmy? 4 A These people were out in that area while — and they 5 passed on while we were only little children, so I 6 don't know what they had been doing out there. 7 Q Lucy Namox is the head chief of your house? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And she discusses with you important matters, matters 10 that are important to the house? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Did you know — did she tell you that she became the 13 registered holder of the Atna Lake trapline? 14 A No. 15 Q Have you ever been to the — in the Atna Lake area or 16 in the trapping area around Atna Lake? 17 A No. 18 Q In your house did Caspit have his own, traditionally 19 in the old days, have his own separate hunting 20 grounds, trapping grounds? 21 A There's quite a few places and I wouldn't know 22 exactly. 23 Q Well, you know where Ootsa Lake is? 24 A Yes. 2 5 Q Is there — was there a Caspit territory at the west 26 end of Ootsa Lake? 27 A I heard Samooh talking about that area when he was 28 talking about it when he died and I don't know exactly 2 9 where it would be. 30 Q Did Caspit traditionally have some hunting grounds 31 around Francois Lake? 32 A No, I don't know about that. 33 MR. MACAULAY: Is Francois Lake — no, is there an area near 34 Francois Lake known in Wet'suwet'en as Tse Kona Kaz or 3 5 One-Eyed Woman? 36 MR. RUSH: I think that if there's trouble with the 37 pronunciation, maybe you could just show it — 3 8 MR. MACAULAY: Well, One-Eyed Woman? 39 MR. RUSH: Okay. Maybe do the spelling if you need it. 40 MR. MACAULAY: It's T-s-e, and then another word, K-o-n-a, 41 K-a-z. Now, that's the Jenness version. 42 MR. RUSH: Yes. 43 MR. MACAULAY: 44 Q It translates as One-Eyed Woman apparently. 45 A They didn't call it that when I heard about it. It 46 was called Tel_gheez, and we walked from Smithers to go 47 there. That was — that was their own territory. S. MORRIS (Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay 1 Q What territory? 2 A Their own territory. 3 Q Are you saying that was Caspit's own territory? 4 A I forget the — Selina's mother's. 5 Q Am I ready for another question or — who was Selina? 6 A That was my grandmother. 7 Q Now, the territory that's described in your father's 8 affidavit is in two parts? 9 A It's just one area, and I heard my dad talk about it. 10 Q But there are two separate parts that aren't joined 11 together by anything; is that right? 12 A Would you be talking about the lake? 13 Q No, not just the lake, but land? 14 A It's — I think it's all one place. It's not joined 15 together. 16 Q Your understanding is that this territory is all one 17 piece, all connected together? 18 A They're all side by side. 19 Q Okay. And who do you rely on for your information 20 about that territory? 21 A My dad and Emma. 22 Q What's Emma's last name? 23 A Emma Michell. She also has a name I forget. 24 Q And that territory is in the general area of Morice 25 Lake? 26 A Yes. 27 Q Do you know Seymour Morris? 28 A Yes. 2 9 Q And was he a member of your house? 30 A I was a little confused about that myself. He was 31 also Caspit too and he was my grandfather. 32 Q And was he also the church chief at Moricetown? 33 A I heard my father told me he was church chief in 34 Hagwilget. 3 5 Q Hagwilget. Do you know when he died? 36 A Sometime in the mid-20's. I don't know exactly. 37 MR. MACAULAY: Can we take five? And I don't have much more. 3 8 MR. RUSH: Sure. 39 40 (BRIEF RECESS TAKEN) 41 42 MR. MACAULAY: 43 Q Is any member of your house trapping now in the Atna 44 Lake area? 45 A Noostel goes out there trapping in that area. 46 Q What's his first name? 47 A Warner. 10 S. MORRIS (Plaintiff) Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay 1 Q Is it Warner Noostel or does he have another name? 2 A William. 3 Q Warner William. Did he go last winter? 4 A He went out there last winter. 5 Q And how many years has he been going out there? 6 A He travelled out there with his father when they look 7 after the territory out there and trap on Knedebeas' 8 territory. 9 Q Well, doesn't he trap at Gosnell Creek? 10 A Sylvester and them, they trapped in five different 11 areas out there. He was trapping out there as 12 Nege'deldes. 13 Q Is he a member of your house? 14 A No. 15 Q Is he a member of Knedebeas' house? 16 A No. 17 Q Is he a member of your clan? 18 A No. 19 Q Is there a chief named Goohlaht in Babine country? 20 A No, I've never heard of it. Sometimes two different 21 people hold the names, but this one I don't know. 22 Q Is there a Caspit in Goohlaht — is there a Caspit in 23 Babine country? 24 A No. 25 Q Is there a Samooh in Babine country? 26 A No. 27 Q Are there any members of your clan who live in Babine 28 country? 29 A There is Gilseyhu out there also. 30 Q Do they attend and help your house when you put on a 31 feast? 32 A They help us out all the time. 33 Q Do they speak the.same language? 34 A Yes. 3 5 Q You know about the Cheslatta Indians? 36 A Yes. 37 Q Do they speak a different language? 3 8 A Yes. 3 9 Q Can you understand the Cheslatta language? 40 A No. 41 MR. MACAULAY: Those are all our questions. Thank you. 42 MR. MACKENZIE: No questions. 43 44 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. RUSH: 45 Q I have some questions on re-direct. 46 Mr. Morris, you said that Seymour Morris held the 47 name of Caspit; is that right? 11 S. MORRIS (Plaintiff) Re-exam by Mr. Rush Yes. And after Seymour Morris was it Jimmy Thomas who held Caspit? William Caspit held that name after Seymour Morris and then Jimmy Thomas. Okay. So it went from Caspit — the name went from Seymour Morris to William Caspit to Jimmy Thomas? Yes. Okay. Now, Seymour Morris and William Caspit, did they pass on before you were born? Yes. Okay. And Jimmy Thomas you knew during your lifetime? Yes. And you said that Jimmy passed on in 1983? Yes. Okay. Now, your — you referred to your grandmother I think. What was your grandmother's name? Elizabeth. And how long did Elizabeth live during your lifetime? I can put it a little more -- MR. MACAULAY: I don't take any issue when she died. Elizabeth is passed on I take it? Yes. And how old was she or how old were you when she passed on do you remember? Thirty-eight. And so had Elizabeth — had Elizabeth, to your knowledge — did she live at Moricetown? Yes. Now, ycu talked about Selina. Is she your grandmother too? Yes. And she's passed on, has she? Yes. Okay. And how old was she when — excuse me, how old were you when she passed on? Probably 25, 26. So you knew her fairly well, did you? Yes. Okay. And you were asked if Jimmy Thomas was a trapper. Did Jimmy Thomas trap at Nanika Lake? Yes, he trapped in there. And what about your grandmother Elizabeth? She would get her son John to go trapping out there for her. Okay. Those are all my questions. 1 A 2 Q 3 4 A 5 6 Q 7 8 A 9 Q 10 11 A 12 Q 13 A 14 Q 15 A 16 Q 17 18 A 19 MR. RUSH 20 21 MR. MACA' 22 MR. RUSH 23 Q 24 A 25 Q 26 27 A 28 Q 29 30 A 31 Q 32 33 A 34 Q 35 A 36 Q 37 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 43 A 44 Q 45 A 46 47 MR. RUSH 12 S. MORRIS (Plaintiff) Re-exam by Mr. Rush 1 2 3 4 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED) 5 6 I hereby certify the foregoing to 7 be a true and accurate transcript 8 of the proceedings herein to the 9 best/of my skill and ability. {yamtec &uh Tanita S. French/ 12 Tanita S. French/ 13 Official Reported 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 L. r