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UBC Publications

The Ubyssey Oct 3, 1974

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Array Vol. LVI, No. 11 VANCOUVER, B.C., THURSDAY, OCTOBER 3, 1974
48       228-2301
Board orders f
• III!
UBC's board of governors has
ordered acting food services head
Robert Bailey to survey off-
campus restaurant prices and
compare them to greatly increased
campus prices.
Bailey was called before
Tuesday's board meeting to justify
soaring campus food costs which
The Ubyssey disclosed last week
have risen twice as fast as off
campus prices.
Although the board said it was
satisfied Bailey's price hikes made
sense in the light of the cost
analysis he presented, the board
insisted on an off-campus survey
for comparison.
"The figures seemed reasonable,
but despite this the board wanted
to check it out and make sure we
are on the right track," said board
member Chuck Connaghan.
"I don't think any board
members are happy about price
increases, but faced with
tremendous labor and food costs,
the figures make sense."
Board member Beverly Field
said she thinks the prices "seem
— kini mcdonald photo
"THE SIXTIES ARE OVER so set him free," Joan Baez sang of Bob Dylan during Wednesday's concert at
the War Memorial Gym to a crowd she characterized as "fantastic." In a later interview, Baez said she
is constantly striving to escape expressions of the past. Interview and review will appear in Friday's PF.
quite fair (to me)-as a housewife."
"However, I think prices should
be a bit lower for students."
Information services, the
university administrations public
relations department, acted as an
intermediary Wednesday between
Bailey and The Ubyssey in turning
over Bailey's three-page
memorandum to the board and the
Food services gives statistics on
changes in menu prices showing
prices in the last three years have
risen on 23 items at rates ranging
from no change in the price of a
small juice — 15 cents all along —
to 109 per cent for fish and chips —
from 55 cents in 1972 to $1J5
The next low-high range is
between coffee at 25 per cent — 12
cents to 15 cents and 100 per cent on
soft drinks — 10 cents to 20 cents.
The average increase among the
23 items is 53 per cent, not
statisticaly significant from the 57
point increase seen in a Ubyssey-
constructed index showed in graph
form in last Thursday's paper.
The two indexs cover substantially the same items, with the
Ubyssey index ignoring breakfast
and steam table items which the
food services includes one
steamtable item, chili concarni.
The Ubyssey used food items in
each of four categories with
statistically-assigned weights for
each added to construct the index.
The Ubyssey has scheduled an
interview with Bailey for today to
delve further into the price hike
situation. The report will appear in
Friday's paper.
Bailey says labor costs have
increased about 35 per cent over
the two-year survey period.
Apart from labor increases
directly related to higher wages,
Bailey also cites a reduced work
week effective last December
"placing a 6.3 per cent burden on
productivity." How this figure was
determined is not explained on the
Bailey's report also contains a
section on'the costs to food services
for purchasing food. The average
increase over the survey period is
about 80 per cent, highlighted by
145 per cent hikes for an eight inch
pie and 202 per cent for sugar.
Another section of Bailey's
report explains with figures how
food services determines prices
taking into account increased food
and labor costs.
Items are divided into labor cost
categories; items of high, medium
and low labor cost. Bailey's report
says the famous UBC sticky bun is
a high labor cost, a hamburger is a
medium labor cost and a glass of
milk is a low labor cost. How these
categories are determined was not
stated in the report.
For the cinnamon bun, Bailey
reported that six cents of the 1972
price of 15 cents covered the food
cost while 7-1/2 cents went to labor.
Added to this was a 1.5 cent
cushion which food services officials have said is for unexpected
inflation during the period until the
next price revision, making a total
of 15 cents.
Two years later, when the prices
were revised, Bailey claimed the
food cost jumped 85 per cent (five
cents), with labor jumping 40 per
cent (three cents) and the
"cushion" increasing 35 per cent
(half a cent).
These revised prices brought the
total of a bun to 23.5 cents which
was upped to 25 cents for the
August selling price.
The report explains similar
thinking behind the price increases
for the medium and low labor cost
items which saw hamburgers go
from 45 to 60 cents
Birth control studied
Two UBC medical researchers
are embarking on one of the
widest-ranging studies ever
conducted on the myths and
realities or the effects of contraception.
Medical genetics profs Dr. Betty
Poland and Dr. J.R. Miller will
conduct research on a large group
of women representing all age
groups and economic levels.
One area of investigation will be
the supposed difficulty in having a
family after a woman has stopped
using contraceptives.
Nurse coordinator Peggy Etchell
says there are "millions of myths"
circulating about the delayed effects of contraception.
Other questions to be answered
are whether menstrual cycles
change because of contraception,
how  many  miscarriages   take
B.C. super council off and running
A superbody governing B.C.'s
three public universities began
operating Tuesday for the first
time in the province's history.
The B.C. Universities Council
was created under the new
Universities Act proclaimed last
summer and is responsible for
settling conflicts between UBC,
Simon Fraser University, the
University of Victoria and the
provincial education department.
Telephone installers and furniture movers began working this
week on the fifth floor of 805 West
Broadway, where council chairman William Armstrong will
decide the future of the universities
with 10 other council members.
Armstrong said in an interview
Tuesday the provincial cabinet will
decide the names of the other
council members at a meeting
today and will announce them
before next Wednesday.
He said the council will begin
working almost immediately
analysing and evaluating budget
submissions from the universities.
"It's going to be a real rush
operation this year," he said. "We
don't have much time to do our
Budget decisions are the
council's main responsibility.
Armstrong and the other council
members decide which universities need the most money and
which need the least.
While the council can't interfere
with internal university operations
it can set broad budgetary outlines
and force the universities to work
within them.
The council presents its
recommendations at year's end to
the  department of  education,
which then puts its own ideas into a
budget submission to the
provincial legislature. The budget
as voted by the legislature —
usually in January or February —
is then returned to the council.
Armstrong leads discussions on
making final allocations to the
three universities. The universities
then get the money they need to
hire professors, pay physical plant
employees, and run their administrative bureaucracies.
Under the old act, annual budget
negotiations were held secretly
See page 2: Budget
place, and whether there is any
increase in congenital malformations.
The study will focus mainly on
the Pill because of its wide use, but
will include all forms of contraception including the intrauterine device, foams and
While other studies have tended
to focus on one age group of
women, one product or one kind of
effect, this study will be unique in
its all-encompassing nature, Etchell said.
She said it is also unprecedented
in that it will study the women both
before and after their pregnancies.
The research may take from
three to five years, she said. The
researchers would like a thousand
pregnancies to draw their conclusions from. Fifty-six doctors in
the Lower Mainland are also
Any woman capable of
reproducing can enter the study.
Anyone interested should contact
her doctor, student health services
or the family practice unit in the
James Mather Building.
The Ubyssey wishes to apologize
to those who developed a headache
reading our top headline Tuesday
"Evections up to students."
The "v" should have been an
"r". Page 2
Thursday, October 3,   1974
Budget hearings
remain in secret
Fun Auction
See Classifieds
From page 1
between     representatives     of
university boards of governors and
education department officials in
Council budget decisions will
become "more of a publicity
oriented sort of thing" but the
council meetings to discuss the
budget will be top-secret, Armstrong said.
"If I was (education) minister
I'd be a bit concerned about budget
submissions coming to me through
the press before I'd have ever
heard about them through anyone
else," he said. "It's like discussing
a court case while the trial is still
But the council will be totally
open at other times in the year
when it performs its second function of making long-range
decisions affecting higher
education in general, he said.
Armstrong said he wants to hold
public meetings around the
province and will "try to get a fair
amount of public input to find out
what people do really think about
the higher education system in the
Armstrong and the other council
members have no direct connections with any B.C. university
Armstrong had to resign his UBC
deputy presidency to take on his
new job. But the council will have
advisory committees with mostly
student and faculty membership to
help it make decisions.
He said one major job of the
council will be to coordinate
relationships between the
universities, and community
"The colleges feed students into
the universities, they have credit
courses in the colleges (so) we'll
have to have fairly regular communication with the college
system," he said.
Another council job may be a
look at Notre Dame university in
Nelson and see if it should join the
three public universities currently
under the Universities Act, he said.
Notre Dame has recently begun
receiving substantial financial aid
from the provincial government.
m mmm
Make your own with our
special variety of cheeses
and cold meats — add
tomatoes, peppers,
Where ?
THE ROYAL WESTMINSTER REGT. has vacancies for young
men 19 to 25 interested in earning the Queen's Commission in
Canada's Reserve Army. This is a 2 year program involving
Saturday and Summer training. Earn good pay while you learn.
See us at The Armoury, 6th St. & Queens Ave., New Westminster
on Sat. 9 A.M. to 3 P.M. or Tues. 8 P.M. to 10 P.M. Call
Notre Dame strike looms
Edward   Ndlovu
Stephen   Nkomo
of  Zimbabwe  African
People's   Union
SUB Auditorium
Thurs. Oct. 3, 12:30 p.m.
African Students' Assoc.
Arts Undergrad. Soc.
Grad. Students' Assoc.
NELSON (Staff) — Faculty
and staff at Notre Dame university
are preparing to strike but can't do
anything until mediators' reports
are released, a faculty association
spokesman said Wednesday.
Alan Child, negotiating committee co-chairman, said the
faculty served 72-hour strike notice
Monday but can't walk out legally
until negotiator Ed Sims releases
his report.
Child said Sims is arranging a
negotiating meeting following a
university board of governors
meeting this weekend.
Child said the 50 member-faculty
association plans "creative
strikes" if the administration
doesn't accept their 28 per cent
wage increase and job security
clause demands.
"We might go out sometimes for
a day or two or a week or an hour,
whenever the spirit moves us," he
The Association of University
and College Employees is also
waiting for a mediator's report, he
said. AUCE represents clerical
and other non-teaching employees
at the university.
Child said his association is
concerned that some faculty
members may be out of jobs after
the university's status changes to a
public university, affiliate of a
public university, or community
college in the months ahead. Notre
Dame is currently a private institution but has recently received
substantial grants from the
provincial government to stay
"The future of this place is uncertain. Certain people may not
fit," Child said. He suggested the
administration be required to pay
retraining money, provide transfers to other institutions, or as a
last resort, pay dislocated faculty
members severance pay.
Only 18 days to go
This year as a special offering to U.B.C. enrolled students only, we are going to GIVE AWAY
$500.00 RETAIL VALUE OF COMPONENTS. Every customer with proof of enrollment at
U.B.C, gets entered in a draw which will take place OCTOBER 19 at the BROADWAY
STORE. The winner will be able to choose from the vast selection of STEREO WEST'S
STOCK, exactly what he or she desires for $500.00.
The Gridiron Canadian.
Molson Canadian*
Brewed right here in B.C. Thursday, October 3,  1974
Page 3
China won't war on Mao's bones
There will be no fierce political
power struggle among Chinese
Communists following Mao Tse-
tung's death, a former missionary
in China said here Wednesday.
"Mao's well forged formulation
means his line will carry on after
he is gone," said Jim Endicott, who
between 1939 and 1941 was a per
sonal advisor to then Chinese
president Chiang Kai-shek.
Endicott said in an interview
that China's problems after Mao's
death will be mainly administrative and not a power
struggle as widely predicted by the
Western press.
Endicott received a much better
reception Wednesday from  UBC
students than he did here 22 years
In contrast with the tomato
throwing audience which
disagreed with his pro-communist
views in 1952, he was greeted with
polite applause by about 100
students in the SUB auditorium
who attended his showing of a
Chinese educational film.
Endicott left China in 1947 for
fear of being assassinated.
He said he received a warning
from a friend within the pre-
revolutionary Chinese government
that his . pro-communist
publications had made him an
enemy of the government. He has
been back to China visiting several
times since the Communists came
to power in 1949.
Endicott said in an interview the
trouble during his last visit to UBC
stemmed from the anti-communist
feelings being stirred up at the
time by the Korean war.
He said his eyewitness report of
U.S. gas attacks in North Korea
and his claim that the U.S. started
the war did not sit well with
audiences of the time.
For a while, Endicott said, he
was officially banned from the
University of Alberta and unofficially banned from UBC because
of disturbances at his speeches.
On a Canada-wide tour this week
funded by the Student Christian
Movement, Endicott is still
capable of upsetting dogmatists of
any belief.
Endicott said he "gained a sense
of socialism from the Bible."
His Christianity, he said, is
based on the belief that a Christlike world would be the best of all
possible worlds.
"It was a profound shock to be
re-educated by the Communists
about revolution," Endicott said.
He said that like many
missionaries in China his thinking
had been slanted by reading Time,
Reader's Digest and Life
Endicott said the charge of anti-
religious elements in Chinese
communism were greatly
"The overwhelming majority of
missionaries in China were on the
side of Chiang Kai-shek and the
American military, ' he said.
In modern China, Endicott said,
Christians told him they are free to
worship as they please.
He said the only, restriction is
against open preaching in .the
—f ttep f itzgerald photo
SLICE OF LIFE photo of the month finds our viewfinder near Brock Hall Wednesday with quasi cop writing
up another ticket to be ignored. Device hanging from cop's back is tape recorder reciting words for the
. . . good reception here
Mao Tse-tung has not become a
religious idol, Endicott said. The
emphasis, he said, is on the thought
of Mao and his revolutionary line
— not on any religious basis.
China, Endicott said, will
eventually become equal to the
Soviet Union and the U.S. but it will
not try to exert great power and
strength against other countries.
China is winning friends in the
United Nations, he said.
Endicott cited the stand by China
against the Soviets and the U.S. at
the recent law of the sea conference, where along with Canada
and many other smaller nations,
China backed a 12-mile offshore
territorial limit.
The film Endicott showed
Wednesday — while not made for
export — was thickly laced with
propaganda. Despite this it was
interesting to see a massive
Chinese irrigation project being
constructed by hand labor.
Endicott will be speaking in
education 100 at noon Thursday
and will hold an informal seminar
in the graduate student centre at 8
p.m. before going on to Victoria
Phoney paper cited
A mimeographed piece of paper
produced in the Alma Mater
Society executive office became an
official government document
Tuesday — at least to AMS external affairs officer Gary Moore.
Moore was debating with law
student Svend Robinson on how
students will be placed on the
university boards of governors
under the new universities act.
"This looks like the AMS
typewriter," Robinson said after
Moore held the paper up to prove
his point that AMS president
Gordon Blankstein could be ap
pointed to serve on the board
without a  campus-wide  election.
Under the act, two students will
serve on the enlarged 15-member
board. The university senate and
the registrar's office are
responsible for holding the elections.
Robinson and Moore both said
students can't do much to affect
the way elections are held and
won't have enough time to prepare
a brief in time for an Oct. 9 senate
meeting, when a senate committee
report on the act's implementation
will be discussed.
mrm' A
■n. a humor column-
OTTAWA (UNS) — Maverick Liberal MP
Raglan Tuesday's maiden parliamentary
speech Tuesday drew catcalls from the
backbenchers and rolled-up Hansards
thrown from the press gallery with his call
for retroactive abortion, free muscatel
clinics for alcoholics and heavier penalties
for illegal use of doubleknit suits.
The 45-year-old member from Vancouver-
Posterior — quickly recovering from an
uneasy start when he read the first nine
pages of his speech before realizing he had
mistaken his John Turner pocket executive
beeper for a microphone — continued his
453-page attack on the World Hockey
Association and lime-scented shaving
cream despite opposition members' attempts to detonate 15 pounds cf gelignite
strapped to his left shin.
Tuesday, the dynamic young gynecologist
who swept into office July 8 after a giddy
and vigorous campaign in his four-block
middle-class ethnic riding, indicated in his
half-hour preamble the House could expect
a decidely non-partisan attitude from him as
he conceded  Quebec  MPs  "are almost
white, provided they shave regularly."
Guests in the Commons cafeteria during
Tuesday's speech were six generations of
Tuesdays, including Raglan's brother-in-
law Seth, who claimed credit for getting him
the Maverick Liberal Party nomination.
"Yeah me an' Moe — Moe's not here —
was walkin' down the block suckin' da
cream outta da tops of da milk bottles on da
porches when Moe, he grabs a jar of yogurt
offa da steps an' fucks off," he said. "He
runs cross da street where Raglan's drivin'
his Chevy Vega dere, an' runs inna him.
"Anyway Raglan's pissed off an' he jumps
outta da car an' says, "There oughta be a
law against assholes like youse." I says
whyn't he do somethin' about it hisself an'
he tells me I had a good idea."
Interviewed in his Commons office after
the six-hour speech, Tuesday agreed the
address was unusually long for a maiden
speech but cited his hemmorhoids and the
national vaseline shortage for his refusal to
surrender the floor to an unnamed opposition backbencher whose colostomy bag
burst upsetting two nearby water pitchers
and drenching the visitors' gallery.
Tuesday — who during his campaign
caused considerable furore among
Maverick Liberals when he described
militant native Indian hecklers as "wetbacks" — said he resents the consistently
bad press he has been given in the past but is
willing to give the media another chance.
"First of all, my name's spelled T-e-u-s-d-
a-y, not T-u-e-s-d-a-y," Tuesday said
Tuesday. "Secondly, my name's spelled T-e-
u-s-d-a-y, not T-u-e-s-d-a-y."
Asked if the press gallery's punctuating
his speech with loud squeaking and
simulated dog noises indicated a
pronounced contempt for his proposals for
abolishing income tax and sterilizing
badminton players, Tuesday admitted the
press seemed cynical but were actually
"It's true, I tell you, it's true," he said.
"All of them sitting up there so prim and
proper in their blue suits and mauve bow
ties at the beginning, then gradually losing
control and whacking off over the railing.
"It's disgusting when you've got the floor
and you're delivering a powerful speech on
the need for a fried-chicken franchise on the
Athabasca tar sands and you look down at
your tie and it's all wet."
He said he objected to being described on
national television networks as "the manic-
depressive backbencher from Vancouver
Posterior" although he was partially
responsible for the misunderstanding
following his near-fatal diarrhea attack at a
Lions Club luncheon.
"It's that goddam limburger mousse they
fed me before I went to the podium and when
I let go and sank to the floor, they all started
screaming, "They've shot him, they've shot
him" and beat up one of the bus boys."
Tuesday denied he is being considered for
a new soon-to-be announced cabinet post,
but hinted he is involved in drafting new
bills to revise dated Criminal Code sections
on shoelace and phlegm regulation.
"Anyway, I don't have any immediate
projects," he said. "Except maybe to get
the prophylactic and tampon dispensers out
of my office." Page 4
Thursday, October 3,  1974
This editorial is (snore
This editorial is about apathy. Be
Apathy is a subject student
newspaper editorial writers glom
onto on an off day.
This is an off day. In many ways
it has been an off year.
People go to classes and then
study, taking the occasional break
for noon hour entertainment.
And then what do they get?
Mordecai Richler and Irving
Layton: the two passe bad boys of
Canadian literature, now accepted
into even the most exacting
Shaughnessy home.
Joan Baez: a '60's superstar of the
student movement, now clinging to a
war everyone thinks is over.
Even Dr. Henry Morgentaler,
who's been around so long he's
almost an institutionalized cause.
What's the Alma Mater Society up
to? Can anyone answer? Well, they
put on an orientation week. And the
Baez concert.
That old standby of teeming
revolt, the arts undergraduate
society? They're reforming their
constitution, if you can believe it.
The left? There is none. Only the
Young Socialists. The Communist
Party of Canada (Marxist-Leninist).
And those few donuts on council.
In fact, if you examine what
issues there are, they narrow down
to two basic concerns: food and
This gives a clue to what is
happening here.
Right now, the world economy is
tottering on depression. Prices are
going up at a rate generally not
commensurate with earnings —
which hits relatively poor students
Therefore students are concerned
with the basic necessities of eating
and having a place to sleep. Oh yes —
and getting a job in the future.
Students fear any boat-rocking will
hamper future security by cutting
off channels necessary to getting a
This is ridiculous. Just look
around and see that students
involved in the whole 60's
movement have a reasonable amount
of security in their chosen jobs —
whether as lawyers or as community
But the fear does remain in the
student body as a whole.
And of course this is reflected in
the AMS and AUS, since executive
members of both who are
responsible for bringing in
thought-provoking     speakers     and
platforms are extensions of the
student body.
The reason for the apathy then is
obvious. It is rooted in the generally
insecure economic  situation today.
But it is still nonsense. Working
toward improved quality in
education and change in society as a
whole are not luxury issues that
should be explored only in a time of
economic calm. If anything, they are
more necessary — and more likely to
succeed — in a time of upheaval.
So people should stop being
afraid and get organized. Organize
discussion groups — and Tween
Classes is open to all announcements
— and work for action out of those.
It's time to get something
happening again.
t   DIOrMT   HB/H-lZt TWfc'
Harder to
In your Sept. 27 editorial "Food
Hard to Swallow," you called attention to the difference between
inflation rates of food establishments on and off campus, a difference you feel unjustified
"especially when you consider
those off-campus restaurants are
making a profit on the food . . .
they serve."
There is an error implied here.
Did you not consider it possible
that the necessity of making a
profit is the cause of their extra
I have been a student, professor
or visitor at several universities,
beginning in 1971.
I have never seen a university-
operated "non-profit" food service
give as good value as the competitive neighboring cafes and
restaurants, except when heavily
subsidized, and not always then. In
all those years the sound of student
newspaper complaint has not, in
my hearing, changed; and it has
always been justified.
But I am still waiting for the
student editor who realizes that the
fault likes not in skullduggery, or
in some unprovable detail of administration, but instead is
inherent in the irresponsibility of
the non-profit structure itself.
Ralph Raimi,
prof, math, university of
Rochester, N.Y.
currently visiting UBC
math department
That argument sounds
suspiciously like the old 'if it's
government-run, it's inefficient',
logic that crops up so frequently.
The premise is the same — that
without the incentive of having to
make a profit, the organization will
be run poorly.
That's obviously not true.
Although some non-profit or
government agencies are run
inefficiently, many are not — or at
least not any more inefficiently
than a private enterprise.
Could you say, for instance, that
the privately-run B.C. Tel is any
more efficient than that other
government-run utility, B.C.
So too, just because an
organization is run on a non-profit
basis doesn't mean it has to be
inefficient. The same business
practices that downtown business
run relatively well could be applied
here. The need to supply a good
service to students is incentive
People always complain about
the engineers being gross and the
animals of this university. But
personally I feel that Totem Park
and its frosh day is a pathetic
example of attempted male
Four times I was attacked (twice
by the same floor) and physically
molested. A small hick town
greaseball with a pseudo
moustache and curly black hair
who believes he is God's gift to
women forced me up to Six Nootka
where some human hippopotamus
proceed to douse me with garbage
cans of water, partially dislodging
some of my clothes.
He then had the nerve to tell me I
was number 98. However I doubt
that I really was.
Just a few minutes later, after
having changed my clothes, I was
grabbed by some weird paramilitary group in black T-shirts
who hauled me up to the Nads floor
to be tanked again despite my
vigorous protests. Soaking wet I
rushed down to the residence attendant to complain but failed to
gain any satisfaction due to my
inadequacy in Yugoslavian. He
even appeared to be completely
intimidated and thus under their
I find this type of action morally
reprehensible and it should not be
condoned by anyone. If Rohringer
is going to maintain his get-tough
policy he should curb these
outrageous practices by turfing
these pubescent rowdies out of
Name withheld
If you will, print this. I think that
it speaks for a lot of us.
Mr. Bailey:
This year, in the Ponderosa
cafeteria, the price of food has
gone up (again), the price hike
being as much as 60 per cent over
last year's prices. The quantity
dispensed per. serving has
decreased. What food is served on
and in is of inferior quality.
Coffee in styro cups.
Soup in styro cups!
No soft drinks (if desired).
The layout is a disaster — hot
food is procured at the head end of
a line, then cold food, then one is
given the honor of paying for this
tepid swill.
By the time one has reached
one's table the food is cold, (not, in
some cases, that it was all that hot
to start with). Salads are set out
half way along one of two lines —
the forks to eat them with are at
the beginning.
I have one very simple question
for you. Why? I see only about one
mug or soup cup broken per week,
if that. You (food services) have,
we are informed, a hefty debt, to
the tune of $1 million.
Why is the equipment that is
depreciating just by its presence
not used? Surely you don't think
that if it is not used it does not have
to be paid for? Why not use it and
at least give us the opportunity of
buying hot swill?
There have been diverse and
various attacks upon you and the
services that you operate and the
food that you sell here. There is no
use getting steamed up over a
thing that cannot be helped. But,
for heaven's sake, show us why the
increases have taken place — we
can understand them, if they are
presented clearly. But no one likes
to be taken for a sucker, or think
that he is being screwed (even if, in
fact, he is not). We don't want
handouts — just decency.
Hungrily   (?)   awaiting   your
Martin Stead
arts 3
In a recent editorial of The
Ubyssey the eviction of five
students from Gage towers
residences was termed one of
"doubtful legality but doubtless
stupidity." This event has since
been expanded into a proposed test
case over the applicability of the
Landlord and Tenant Act to
university residences — "a project
of great import, both in its immediate and general aspects."
(Editorial, Sept. 26.)
I would like to question the
reasoning behind these opinions
expressed by the authors of the
editorials and proceed to suggest
that while verbal diarrhea might
be a specialty of theirs, logical
reasoning is not.
Firstly, the decision made by the
Gage liaison committee was quite
correct despite the fact that it
might have been reached rather
I can sympathize with the
evictees to the extent that they
might not have been directly
responsible for launching the beer
bottles into orbit, but the act occurred in their quadrant and hence
they must ultimately be held
This outcome would have been
no different under the auspices of
the Landlord and Tenant Act — one
is always held responsible for one's
One thing that was not mentioned during the course of the
lengthy reports was that the party-
goers were given a prior warning
during the course of the evening to
abstain from their more animallike instincts.
Thus the decision itself was quite
Seepage 5: Letters
OCTOBER 3,1974
Published Tuesdays, Thursdays and Fridays throughout the
university year by the Alma Mater Society of the University of
B.C. Editorial opinions are those of the writer and not of the
AMS or the university administration. Member, Canadian
University Press. The Ubyssey publishes Page Friday, a weekly
commentary and review. The Ubyssey's editorial offices are
located in room 241K of the Student Union Building
Editorial departments, 228-2301; Sports, 228-2305; advertising,
Editor: Lesley Krueger
"Look, we're members of the board of governors," shouted Lesley
Krueger, Mark Buckshon, Gary Coull, Ryon Guedes and Berton Woodward
as they burst into the office waving a piece of paper. "Bullshit," said Kini
McDonald, Ralph Maurer, Dan Miller, Joyce Jackman and Marise Savaria as
they waved a copy of the AMS constitution in their faces. "Actually, Ted
Krzeminski, Reed Clarke and Terry Donaldson should be members of the
board," said Pat McKitrick and Ron Binns waving a copy of the Faculty
Association manifesto. Doug Rushton remained ignorant of all, asleep and
impotent in a corner. Thursday, October 3,  1974
Page 5
From page 4
valid. However, its administration
does not stand up to the same test. I
would be the first to agree that
three or four days' notice of
eviction is unnecessariy harsh and
this I presume, due to the lack of
sufficient other grounds, is the
principle bone of contention over
which a legal test case is proposed.
(Another main point of controversy which has not arisen
through this incident is that
residence students must pay one
term's fees in advance with a nonrefundable $25 deposit.)
The editorial authors suggest
that residence students would
benefit greatly being under the
auspices of the Landlord and
Tenant Act. Yet no where have I
seen a reasoned explanation for
this attitude. After three years in
residences and two years of
apartment living I would beg to
differ with them. If one considers
The Ubyssey welcomes letters
from all readers.
Pen names will be used when the
writer's real name is also included
for our information in the letter or
when valid reasons for anonymity
are given.
Although an effort is made to
publish all letters received, The
Ubyssey reserves the right to edit
letters for reasons of brevity
legality, grammar or taste.
Letters should be addressed to
the paper care of campus mail or
dropped off at The Ubyssey office,
SUB 241 K.
30 days' notice and a refundable
deposit the be all and end all of
freedom then their argument
might possibly hold. To my mind,
however, freedom implies a great
deal more and in many cases I fail
to see how the act would benefit
Leslie Rohringer, as director of
housing, has come under constant
criticism from both the Alma
Mater Society council and the staff
of The Ubyssey, particularly from
the latter.
These people consider him to be
authoritarian and unnecessarily
paternalistic. While I respect their
opinions, I cannot agree with them.
I would be the first to admit that
there is nearly always room for
improvement in most individuals'
makeup, but relatively speaking,
in comparison to previous housing
administrators, Rohringer has
made considerable strides; the
record speaks for itself.
However, it is so-called
"repressive" policies and paternalism that appear to be the real
issues: freedom to do and say as
one feels. My experience leads me
to believe that the latter is more
prevalent in the residences than
elsewhere off campus. I wonder on
what authority the editorial
authors expound on paternalism in
the residences; I also wonder
whether they have lived there for
any length of time.
Finally, I feel I must express
concern over the funding of such a
proposed legal test case. Ten
thousand dollars has been
suggested; $20,000 is more realistic
for such a weak case. Advocates
argue that the money could be
raised through dances and fund-
raising campaigns, an attitude that
I find a little naive.
Inevitably money would be
siphoned out of AMS funds.
Much as I dislike many of the
schemes of AMS president Gordon
Blankstein and Co., akin to the
efforts of multinational executives,
so also do I find the thought of
thousands of dollars channelled
into such a legal action equally
Residence students comprise
some 20 per cent of UBC's student
population. If they wish to fight
such an action, let it be so, but let it
be done democratically. I suggest
a referendum among them to
decide  whether   they   feel   they
MUSSOC Announces
Saturday. October 5    , .
Sunday, October 6
would be that much better off
under the officiality of the Landlord and Tenant Act; whether the
advantages outweigh the disadvantages, (including the costs
In conclusion, it is my opinion
that far worthier causes exist on
this campus that should take
priority over this one issue raised
here; causes far more deserving of
the time and money required to
test the applicability of the Landlord and Tenant Act to UBC
Lindsay Gordon
grad studies
New Arrivals for Fall
Oil IK I O     Luigi, Forsyth, B.V.D.
I Mil I O    Aero, Canaday Cords, G.W.G., Lees
OwlaUtt I CHO    Cardigans, Pullovers, Turtlenecks
We Have Them All
Your Neighbourhood Men's Store
4526 West 10th Avenue   Phone 224-5844
Special Events
Proudly Announces
In Concert at the Gym,
Nov. 5, 8:00 p.m.
Tickets on sale Tuesday,
SUB, Room 266 Page 6
Thursday,  October 3,   1974
'r Zg$%,. .v
?*/>'■ i4
Hot flashes
Film ireebees
for you
If you like getting something
for nothing, then the Vancouver
Public Library has just the thing
for you.
Starting Oct. 8, Killarney Free
Film Theatre will be presenting its
fall series to Vancouver East
residents, free of charge.
The first film, The History of
Motor Racing is a six-part film
from Shell and features classic
automobile   races   such   as   the
Grand Prix de France. It will be
shown in three sections of two
parts each on Oct. 8, 15 and 22.
The Best of NFB Sports Films,
including Octopus Hunt, Sixty
Cycles, and Jukoda, will be
presented on Nov. 13.
On Dec. 11, catch one or
all of Evolution, Pas de Deux, and
All performances will be held
in Killarney Community Library,
49th and  Killarney at 7:30 p.m.
'Tween classes
Weekly meeting, discussions from a
libertarian      socialist      perspective,
noon, Bu. 1210.
Navigators    on    witnessing,    noon,
SUB 205.
Cavaliering,     noon,    SUB    outside
courtyard, second floor.
Dr. C. Gardner  to talk  to general
dentistry, noon, TRC 3.
Han-Karl   Piltz on   violin  and  Dale
Reubart   on   piano,   8   p.m.,  music
building recital hall.
French     Tickner,     narrator,
Robert    Silverman,    piano,
music building recital hall.
Games and  discussion,  noon
Presentation  on  the gospel according to peanuts by George Mallone,
noon, Angus, 104.
Speakers   from   Zimbabwe,   noon,
SUB auditorium
Practice,   noon, Thunderbird sports
centre gym E.
James    Endicott   on   education   in
China, noon, education 1.
Seminar on China, 8 p.m. graduate
Discussion group, noon, SUB 212A.
Organizational  meeting, noon, SUB
Meeting at north end of SUB second
floor, noon.
First   general   meeting,   7:30   p.m.,
SUB clubs lounge.
Thomas Sebeok on semiotics and its
congenors, 3:30 p.m. Bu. 102.
David Anderson, noon, SUB club's
General meeting, noon, SUB 10SB.
Steve Watson  speaks in defense of
lost and found
The campus lost and found
service, late starting this year, is
now open in SUB 208.
Items are kept about six weeks,
after which they generally are
readied for sale in lost and found
rummage sales held in November
and February. Sale proceeds go to
a Phrateres charity.
Lost and found hours: Monday, Thursday and Friday, 11:30
a.m. to 1:15 p.m.; Tuesday and
Wednesday, 12:30 p.m. to 2:15
artistic freedom, 8 p.m., 1208
Multi-media     presentation,     if      I
should die, noon, SUB auditorium.
Organizational meeting and discussion, noon, Lutheran campus centre.
Frosh dance with Echo lake band, 8
p.m., SUB party room.
Auditions for leads,
dancers in George M!
p.m. old auditorium.
Antique bottle show, 10 a.m. to 10
p.m., Sunday, 10 a.m. to 5 p.m.,
New Westminster arena.
Dance to celebrate Nigeria's national day, 8 p.m., IH lower lounge.
Beer   night,   8:30
chorus   and
1 p.m. to 5
The SKI CLUB offers:
—Free accommodation at Whistler cabin
—Group rate ski lessons
—Group rate transportation
—Interior Mtn. ski trips
—Social functions
' A late payment fee of $25.00 additional to all other fees will be
assessed if payment of the first instalment is not made on or
before September 20. Refund of this fee will be considered only
on the basis of a medical certificate covering illness or on
evidence of domestic affliction. If fees are not paid in full by
October 4, 1974, registration will be cancelled and the student
concerned excluded from classes.
If a student whose registration has been cancelled for
non-payment of fees applies for reinstatement and the application
is approved by the Registrar, the student will be required to pay a
reinstatement fee of $25.00, the late fee of $25.00, and all other
outstanding fees before being permitted to resume classes.
Special for U.B.C. students
p.m.,  St. Mark's
695 Sq. Yd.
Reg. 11.95sq. yd.
4429 WEST 10th
Thurs., Fri. & Sat. — Oct. 3-4-5
Fisher Rossignol La Trapper
K-2 Lange Nordica Head
$ $ $ Dollar Savings on Ski Brands $ $ $
New Buckle Boots
New Humanic Boots
Reg. $ 85.00
Reg. $115.00
Looking for Great Values on Longen Skis
Reg. $210.00
$   49.95
Reg. $180.00
$   29.95
Reg. $210.00
$ 149.95
Reg. $110.00
$   39.95
Reg. $45.00 SALE $25.00
Kids Wood Skis - Assorted Sizes - Value $39.95 For $9.50
Ivor Williams Sporting Goods Ltd.
Open daily: 9-6
2120 West 41st Ave.
Thurs.-Fri. till 9
RATES:   Campus - 3 lines, 1 day $1.00; additional lines 25c.
Commercial - 3 lines, 1 day $1.80; additional lines
40c. Additional days $1.50 & 35c.
Classified ads are not accepted by telephone and are payable in
advance. Deadline is t1:30a.m„ the day before publication.
Publications Office, ftoom 241, S.U.B., UBC, Van. 8, B.C.
5 —Coming Events
Saturday, Oct. Sth. 1:00 p.m.
at 4595 W. 8th Avenue
Best Bids
Appliances,  Movie  Equipment,  Furniture,   Household   Items,   Automobile,  and many, many more.
Refreshments, Home Baking
West Point Grey United Church
YE ARE the fruits of one tree and
the leaves of one branch. Baha'u'llah
Baha'I Fireside. Thursday, 8:00 p.m.
Endowment Lands.  Tel.  228-0128.
10 —For Sale — Commercial
11 —For Sole — Private
calculator, five months old. $375
687-1341 evenings.
1M7 MINX 4 Dr. standard. Cheap tc
run, good condition throughout. $625,
offers.   876-6358.
'«1 WHITE Rambler 2 Dr., auto, good
cond. 261-6187.
210 cm Ki 4 Corap skis, sizo 9 K2 ski
boots. Phone 224-0440.
BOATING CLASSES for sail and powei
now commencing at The Dunbar
Community Centre and other locations. For information phone 228-
9332. The Vancouver Power Squadron-
30 - Jobs
SUPERVISORS needed for community
sponsored dances to augment regular
personnel on week-end rutes. $5 hour.
738-0679, 9-5.
ROOM & BOARD available in Faculty
home plus $50 month for student to
assist with preparation of evening
meal, some housework & occasional
supervision of 3 children when not
in school. Must be available from 3
p.m. daily. Private quarters with
Phone & TV. Near Blanca & 4th.
Non-smoker.   224-5056.
35 — Lost
BROWN LEATHER wallet lost on Aug.
26 in SUB Cafe. Alan, 437-0304. Reward if returned.
SILVER chain bracelet, lost October
1st.    Reward.    Helen,   261-4321.
40 — Messages
50 — Rentals
COSTUMES — Reserve your Halloween
costume now & avoid the last minute
rush. Dunbar Costumes, 5648 Dunbar,
RIDE    NEEDED   to   UBC    from    New
Westminster.   Phone   321-5869.
65 — Scandals
80 — Tutoring
TUTOR NEEDED for English 100 student. Write: D. Lui, 837 W. 44th
Ave.,  Vancouver   13.
85 — Typing
home, essays, thesis, etc. Neat, accurate work. Reasonable rates. 263-
90 - Wanted
C.R.C. HANDBOOK of Chemistry and
Physics. (Recent edition). Phone 738-
7984 after 7:00.
CASH FOR paperback books. I will
pick up.  Call 876-5687 after 6 a.m.
99 — Miscellaneous
ROCK and Boogie Band "Hellbound
Train" open for bookings as of Oct.
1st. Very reasonable rates. Phone
224-6401   ask for  Wayne. Thursday, October 3,  1974
Page 7
UBC prof sights kelp
Bleeding the ocean
It won't be long before a hungry
world gets around to siphoning off
the ocean's resources in a big way
and when it does, UBC will have
At least in the kelp department.
Assistant botany professor Ronald
Foreman is currently gathering
information to develop a standard
method for computing the amount
of kelp in a given area.
This may not sound interesting,
but if you own a kelp harvesting
operation  with  the  capacity  to
AMS appoints gear Smith
to replace quitter Brock
The Alma Mater Society has
appointed Robbie Smith as acting
Smith, a fourth year civil
engineering student, replaces
Doug Brock, who resigned Sept. 18
because of academic difficulties.
Smith is a member of the winter
sports centre management
committee and served this past
summer on the AMS's employment
Brock was the third member of
the Student Coalition executive to
resign since that slate swept the six
executive positions in AMS elections last February.
Treasurer George Mapson
resigned in August to take a $17,000
a year post with Malaspina College
in Nanaimo. He was replaced by
Pemme Muir Cunliffe.
Lynn Orstad resigned as AMS
coordinator in late August because
of academic reasons and was
replaced by Ron Dumont.
Smith and Dumont plan to run in
the Oct. 23 AMS by-election in an
effort to retain their seats. Cunliffe
has   said   she   won't   run.
gobble up 20 tons of the stuff an
hour, it's mighty useful information.
Sponsored by both the federal
and B.C. governments, the nine-
month project was begun last May.
Foreman's work consists of
studying an area of about 1,250
acres in the Queen Charlotte Strait
and at Port Hardy.
The harvested kelp has a variety
of uses but is mainly used as fertilizer and as animal feed. Some
secondary kelp products are used
in the manufacture of cosmetics
and beer. When added to beer, the
chemical derived is supposed to
keep a higher head in the glass.
Foreman is currently interpreting data obtained from field
studies and aerial photographs.
• Browns • Blues
• Greys • Burgundy
• Tux-Tails » Velvets
• Double Knits • White
Parking at Rear
Formal Wear Rentals     .;
631 Howe 688-2481
'Men's Room Westwood Mall 941-2541
4639 Kingsway 435-1160
2174 West 41st Ave. 261-2750
1046 Austin, Coquitlam 937-3516
1420 Lonsdale, N. Van. 988-7620
3048 Edgemount Blvd., N.V. 987-5121
1586 Marine, W. Van. 936-1813
1527 Lonsdale, N. Van. 985-4312
Fraser's Surrey Place 588-7323
Werners Lougheed Mall 936-7222
Friesens Guildford Centre 581-8722
Kennedy McDonald, Park Royal 922-6421
Fraser's Park Royal North 926-1916
* 10% discount to U.B.C. students
'Nothing from NUS'
The B.C. Institute of
Technology's student association is
considering withdrawing from the
National Union of Students,
association president Blaine
Kennedy said Wednesday.
Kennedy said the union is
irrelevant to the needs of students
at BCIT.
"So far all that we have received
from NUS is a stack of paper," he
said. We think that we might have
Students presently on the Fall Term Residence Waiting Lists A &
B wishing to be on the Spring Waiting List must come to the
Housing Off ice the week of Sept. 30 to Oct. 4 to re-validate their
Those not on Waiting Lists A or B may place their names on the
Spring Residence Waiting List on or after Oct. 7.
Rooms available for the Spring Term (to be occupied January 5)
will be offered to those on the Spring Waiting List daily at 12:30
p.m. commencing Dec. 9. The Residence fee must be paid at the
time of accepting a room assignment.
Off ice of the Director of Residences
October 1, 1974
tf    L
-°3>s 30l0 W
better ways to spend the money."
BCIT students currently pay 50
cents each toward NUS, which
amounts to about $1,500 for the
whole school. Students at UBC pay
30 cents each.
The future of the two-year-old
national union is in doubt due to
lack of support from its members.
Dr. Jim Endicott
Lived in China from 1925 - 47
Visited 52, 56, 59, 72-73
Thurs. 12:30 -Oct. 2 - Education 100
Lecture on China
8 p.m. Seminar - Graduate Student Centre
Sponsors:    Cooperative Christian Campus Ministry
Graduate Student Association
Education Student Association
AMS Speakers
Used to be, getting a
stereo receiver involved a
painful choice.
You either got a good one
and paid dearly, or you got
one cheap and died a little
every time you played it.
Used to be.
Because now Rotel gives
you another option.
The RX-150A. The least
expensive of the Rotel line
of fine receivers.
It gives you the latest
The integrated circuits,
and low-noise silicon output
transistors you've heard so
much about.
You also get features and
AM-FM and FM stereo.
A tuning meter to guide
you to the best reception.
Inputs for eight-track or
cassette decks.
Eight controls for shaping
and re-shaping the sound.
(Including switches for operating a second pair of speakers
for four way sound.)
Headphone jack out in
front where you don't have to
grope for it.
And great sound, of course.
An easy choice.
And the price doesn't make
it any harder. $229.50.
But if that's too easy—or
if you want all the trimmings
you can get—there are seven
other Rotels you can choose
Every single one great
And none of them would
cost more than what you'd
be willing to part with.
Noresoo. Exclusive Canadian distributor of Rotel. For independent test lab reports write: Noresco, 425 Alness Street, Downsview, Ontario.
Offices in Quebec City, Montreal, Toronto, Winnipeg, Calgary, Edmonton and Vancouver.
Thursday, October 3,  1974
Layton as savior or,
the poet as pole-vaulter
Although the event was badly advertised a
large crowd of people turned up Tuesday to
hear leading Canadian poet Irving Layton
read a selection of his poems in the Instructional Resources Centre.
Chubby, silver-haired and with a frequent
sly grin Layton read 26 poems.
They ranged from familiar Layton
classics like 'The Birth of Tragedy' and
'Keine Lazarovitch' to more recent work
from Lovers and Lesser Men.
". . . when I first
started to write 30
years ago the notion
that a Canadian
might be an excellent
writer wouldn't have
entered the minds of
any    academic.
Many were in the lighter vein of 'Signs and
Portents', with its typical Layton polemics
about women ['not being handicapped in the
least by vision or creativity women are by
far the stronger sex' and wry conclusion:
It has taken me all these years to
discover that
everything except
writing poems and making love ends up
by finally boring me.
Layton also read new poems from his
latest collection, The Pole-Vaulters. He
concluded the reading with the title poem
and included a couple —' The Ventroloquist'
and 'The Final Solution' which drew on his
sense of shock at th« way' a refreshed
acquaintance with the horror of Nazi
atrocity makes the ongoing forgetful world
seem hideously grotesque by its ordinariness and lack of concern.
. That kind of disparity seemed present in
the lecture hall itself. The violence of some
of Layton's exhortations about man's need
to survive, 'to fuck and kill', bounced off the
audience's polite silence, broken only by
occasional male applause or feminist
disapproval. Though the applause at the end
was rapturous the poetry seemed nullified
by the gentility of its reception.
Later, in the same atmosphere of vague
absurdity, I caught up with Layton in the
incongruous surroundings of the Faculty
Club, amid the chilly glances of slightly
puzzled faculty coffee drinkers.
Q. Do you think there is too much
emphasis on Canadian literature simply
because it's Canadian?
Layton. There's always the danger that
that kind of thing can be overdone, and we
have to be on guard against it and always
insist upon excellence. But when I first
started to write 30 years ago the notion that
a Canadian might be an excellent writer
wouldn't have entered the minds of any
academic, or of the establishment, and you
had to fight against that.
The poet today is up against something
else, perhaps the very opposite to what I was
up against: the kind of freedom of language
which is very tempting for the immature
poet who thinks that if he uses the lingo of
the time then he is a poet, that if he uses the
vulgarisms and colloquialisms of the time it
makes him a poet.
Q. Mordecai Richler was here about
three weeks ago, and he expressed his
hostility to the notion of Canadiana — he
didn't like seeing Canadiana shelves in
bookshops. Do you agree with that?
Layton. No, I don't. I still think that it's
important for Canadians to develop a pride
in their own work. I don't mean a kind of
overweening pride that excludes the work of
other countries — that's foolishness and
stupidity. I have no patience with that.
But I can't go along with Mordecai in his
diatribes. In Canada it's been a constant
battle. When I first started to write it was a
battle against a colonialism that directed its
gaze at Great Britain. Today it's a
colonialism that directs it's gaze at the
United States.
Q. The editor of your Selected Poems
refers in her preface to your 'growing
conviction concerning the redemptive
power of imagination and the prophetic role
of the poet in society.' Is it really true that
you are becoming more optimistic?
Layton. I wouldn't say that I'm becoming
more optimistic. I maintain what I've
always maintained — that society is
redeemed by the few pole-vaulters who
possess courage and imagination and a
reverence for life. I think they're up against
the very same forces of blindness, of folly, of
viciousness that the pole-vaulters have
always been up against.
Q. When you were interviewed for The
Ubyssey two years ago you said you were
planning to write your memoirs. Have you
started them yet?
Layton. Not yet. I've made extensive
notes and one day I do intend to finish a book
like that. I feel I'm still too young.
Q. You wrote in the introduction to your
book of essays Engagements that you still
considered yourself a Marxist. Do you in
fact still read Marx?
Layton. Oh yes, and I still feel that he has
a great deal to say, but as I expressed
myself in Engagements I think the whole
ideology has been taken over by people who
I find very uncreative or who are using it as
a kind of fossilized ideology for propaganda
But the prophetic element, the Messianic
element of Marxism, I hold to be as valid
today as I did 40 or 50 years ago when I first
became acquainted with it.
It is the eternal cry for justice, it is the
eternal cry of outrage, of protest, against
man's inhumanity to other men, and man's
exploitation of other men. I think the big
problem that faces us in the 20th century is
the awareness of the white man's exploitation of the coloreds, and now you have
the Indians in Canada revolting, you have
the blacks in the United States revolting.
I've just been through Southeast Asia and
there's no doubt in my mind that the whole
region is alive and aware of the terrible
cruelties and injustices and the record of
exploitation of the white man. The white
man has to face up to the fact that his
historical chickens are coming home to
roost and that he'll have to pay a terrible
price for what he has inflicted on weak
peoples in the past.
Q. In your poem 'The Skull' you wrote 'I
want to write poems as clean and dry as
"I firmly believe
that women have had
a raw deal. I firmly
support their fight for
equality with men,
for abortion on
demand, whatever it
is. You name it, I'm
for it."
impertinentas this skull.' Do you think Nail
Varnish and Lovers and Lesser Men fulfilled
that program? There seems to me to be a
plainer style at work in these two volumes.
Layton. Yes, I think that for the past five
or six years I've been working toward a
much plainer, much more direct style. I've
really taken to heart the words which I
wrote in 'The Skull.' I want my lines to be
clean, very clean and very direct — as clean
and direct as an arrow-bone.
Q. In his latest collection of poems, The
Energy of Slaves, Leonard Cohen has a
poem about Canada's 'first poet' — is that
Layton.   I think so. I'd like to believe it.
Q. Do you ever feel that Leonard Cohen is
realized that I was writing the poem with a
tongue-in-cheek attitude and really that I
was trying to say the very opposite to what
the contents of the poem appear to be
saying. Namely that the old dichotymies of
yin and yang, male and female, nature and
form, intellect and energy — that these old
dichotymies seen in terms of male and
Too young for memoirs,
too old for optimism
competing with you? His style seems to
derive a lot from you.
Layton. No, I don't think that I feel that
Leonard Cohen is competing with me.
Sometimes I feel that he thinks I'm competing with him. We have a lot of things in
We're both Jewish, we both come from
Montreal, we're both erotic poets, we're
both essentially lyrical poets.
But his talent is quite different from mine.
He's got a certain lyrical bent which is
certainly different from my own and he has
not got, I think, my interest in political and
metaphysical and religious, or theological
questions. I don't think there is any competition, and if there is, it's in a good sense.
Q. In another of your poems you remark
'I no longer want to make poems out of
pain.' Is that possible?
Layton. That's impossible. One makes
poems out of pain.
Q. In a recent issue of the new avant-
garde magazine, Canadian Review, there
was an article accusing you of being a male
chauvinist. . ..
Layton. Yes, by young Pomeroy. Yeah, I
think that the particular poem he's referring
to he's simply misunderstood.
The title of the poem was overlooked. It's
called 'Teufelsdrockh concerning women.'
'Teufelsdrockh' means 'Devil-shit.' If I had
said 'Bullshit' concerning women, people
would have been alerted and would have
female, phallus and vagina, were no longer
Q. So you'd deny that you are a
Layton. I'm certainly not a male
chauvinist. I don't think I'm one at all. I
can't see how anyone who has read my total
work could accuse me of being a male
I firmly believe that women have had a
raw deal. I firmly support their fight for
equality with men, for abortion on demand,
whatever it is. You name it. I'm for it. I
certainly feel that there has been a strain of
male chauvinism in literature and that a lot
of literature has been affected unconsciously with this, and that it ought to be
looked at. It's there in the work of people
like Henry Miller or of Norman Mailer.
Q. What do you think of Mailer's The
Prisoner of Sex, then?
Layton. Like Mailer's work in general,
it's always got some brilliant insights
surrounded by a hell of a lot of shabby,
flabby writing and thinking. So I don't go to
Mailer because I'm going to get the final
enlightenment. I go to Mailer in order to get
the few flashing insights and perceptions
that only he can give me.
Q. Out of all the books you have published
since 1946 do you have a particular favorite?
Layton. It's always my latest book which
is my favorite. Right now it's The Pole-


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