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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-05-17] British Columbia. Supreme Court May 17, 1988

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 6154  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Vancouver B.C.  May 17, 1988.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  THE REGISTRAR:  In the Supreme Court of British Columbia,  Tuesday, May 17, 1988.  Calling Delgamuukw vs. Her  Majesty the Queen.  PETE MULDOE, resumed, previously  sworn:  ALICE SAMPSON, previously sworn:  MS.  THE  REGISTRAR:  And I caution the witness and the interpreter  you are still under oath.  RUSH:  Thank you.  COURT:  Well, I am glad to see Miss Mandell back.  MANDELL:  Thank you.  COURT:  We hope you you have enjoyed your absense more than  you have enjoyed your condition.  All right.  With your permission, my lord, I would also like to  ask Mr. Neil Sterritt be seated at counsel bench to  assist us with some of the spellings and names.  It's  his counsel in that respect.  I am sure there is no difficulty with that, Miss  Koenigsberg.  KOENIGSBERG:  None at all.  COURT:  Certainly.  THE  MR.  THE  MS.  THE  MR. RUSH  THE COURT  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH, Continued:  Q   Now, Mr. Muldoe, yesterday at the end of the day you  were asked some questions by his lordship about the  road up to the Gitludahl's territory?  Oh, yeah.  And you said that you went up the left-hand side up  the river and I think there was a confusion about what  river was being talked about?  Oh, yeah.  And can you just tell his lordship, when you leave  from the Village of Kispiox, can you tell him where  you drive and are you between two rivers when you are  driving up north?  Yes.  Well, as you left the Village of Kispiox as you  are going up the river, we go up on the right-hand  side as you are going up.  Which river are you talking about?  The Kispiox River.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A 6155  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  A  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  14  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  MR.  RUSH:  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  RUSH:  30  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  MR.  RUSH:  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  RUSH:  Okay.  Now --  And it will be on the right-hand side of Skeena River  as you are looking down.  Okay.  But when you are going north, you are going up  on the right-hand side of the Kispiox?  Right.  But the left-hand side of the Skeena?  Skeena.  Okay.  Now, when you get up to where you go to your  cabin, how do you get to where your cabin is at Twin  Lakes?  Well, it's a road go right on past my cabin right up  past Twin Lakes and right up towards Sweet In River  and right beyond that.  Okay.  Now, in order to get across the Kispiox River,  his lordship asked you if you had a boat there and did  you take a boat across and you said yes.  Yes.  Now, when you take the boat across, is that going from  the east side to the west side of the river?  It's on the east side of the river.  Okay.  It's about three miles from where the cabin is.  Okay.  And you go down the river about a mile.  The cabin is  on the east side of the river.  The cabin is on the east side of the Kispiox.  :  All right.  So you don't have to cross the river --  To get to the cabin, but this was what I was coming  to and I think what the confusion was.  What do you use the boat to do, Mr. Muldoe?  We use the boat to cross the river.  And when you cross the river, are you on the west side  of the Kispiox river?  Yes.  And then where do you go on the west side?  We go to the lake they call Dam Naa Daat -- I mean Naa  dax de'et and Galli Anlagit.  The lake that's on the west side that you go to you  say first is Naa Daat?  Yeah.  Okay.  I'll just find that.  It's very close to the river.  It's only about a  quarter mile.  That's 1365.  :  Thank you. 6156  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q And you mentioned another lake, Mr. Muldoe?  2 A Yes.  Another lake just above that.  It's on the west  3 side from this lake.  It's the one they call -- in  4 English they call it a little Fish Lake.  5 Q What do they call it in Gitksan?  6 A Gallii Anlagit.  7 Q That's 1364.  And you use your boat to get over to  8 those lakes?  9 A Yes.  10 Q Now, when you are over at those lakes, Mr. Muldoe,  11 what do you do there?  12 A Well, we usually leave the boat by the river then we  13 walked over.  14 Q Okay.  How —  15 A From a trail.  16 Q There is a trail there?  17 A Yeah.  18 Q And what do you do around the lakes?  19 A We going there to trap beaver.  Or hunt beaver.  2 0 Whatever.  21 Q And is there -- do you hunt other animals in there?  22 A Well, we hunt moose along there.  23 Q And you mentioned Gallii Anlagit.  That's 1364.  What  24 do you hunt at Gallii Anlagit?  25 A We hunting beaver.  2 6 Q Any large animals?  27 A Well, we have moose there lately, but before that  28 there wasn't any to hunt too handy to take any big  2 9 game out of there.  30 Q So is there any deer in that area?  31 A Yes.  32 Q You hunt deer, too?  33 A Yeah.  34 Q And you said that you used the word "we" go in there  35 and hunt beaver.  Who do you go in with?  36 A I go in there with the Vincent and Kirby.  37 Q Vincent?  38 A And Kirby.  39 Q And who are they?  40 A They are my grandsons.  41 Q Is that Vincent Muldoe?  42 A Vincent Muldoe and Kirby Muldoe.  43 Q And when you are hunting moose or deer, do you take  44 the meat out fresh or do you smoke it up on the  45 territory?  46 A Take it out fresh.  47 Q And then when you -- do you return to Kispiox with it? 6157  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  11  MR. RUSH:  12  Q  13  14  THE COURT  15  MR. RUSH:  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  47  Well, cut it up, put it -- cut it up fresh and put it  in the freezer or we can some.  Now, is there a cabin on the west side of the Kispiox  River on Gitludahl's territory?  Yes.  Where is that located?  It's located right at about a minute or territory  right at the mouth of the creek pretty close to the  mouth of the creek at Naa dax de'et in the Kispiox  River.  Naa dax de'et, my lord.  Which side of the Skeena is that on, the east or the  west side?  :  Skeena or --  Excuse me.  The Kispiox.  Oh, it's on the west side.  On the west side?  Yeah.  The west side -- on the east side, the east  side of Kispiox River.  And that's located at Naa dax de'et.  Naa dax de'et about a mile and a half below Naa dax  de'et.  That's 372.  Now, Mr. Muldoe, do you trap around Naa  dax de'et?  That's Twin Lakes, isn't it?  Yes.  Do you trap around there?  Yes.  Do you do any hunting around there?  Yes.  Now, has there been any logging in around Naa dax  de'et?  Yes.  They start logging in there last -- quite a few  years back.  Can you say how long ago they started?  Oh, it must be about ten years ago anyway.  When I was  first in there there was no logging in there.  We have  to either get in there by wagon or walked in.  And about ten years ago you say they started the  logging in there?  Yes.  And what's been the -- what's been the effect of the  logging?  What's happened as a result of the logging,  if anything?  Well, when they start logging in there, they cut all  the trees right out of the territory and then they  build the road and they build a bridge.  They go 615?  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 across from the mouth of Naa dax de'et and you go  2 across on the west side and they build the road all  3 the way up to the other end of the territory, too.  4 Q   And has that had an effect on the trapping that you  5 do?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   What's happened as a result of that?  8 A  Well, after that -- like, after they cut all the logs  9 out, there is no other place for the marten or  10 anything like that to live around there or anything.  11 And they kind of ruined the area by clearing -- clean  12 cutting there.  Then besides when after even if the  13 loggers quit hauling in about February, but they still  14 cutting logs through there and through February and  15 right up to May.  And while they are doing that, the  16 marten -- marten still have the young ones in the  17 trees in March along March and other animals like the  18 fish.  They -- all of the young ones in the trees.  19 And while the loggers are still cutting the logs,  20 through all this after the trapping is over in  21 February they are still cutting the trees down and  22 they -- by doing that they are destroying all the  23 young animals.  And at the same time when they are  24 skidding those logs up and stockpiling them late in  25 May, while they are still not hauling yet, but they  26 are still skidding it up and stockpile them, they ruin  27 other animals that have a den into the ground.  And  28 even the grouse, they destroyed the eggs by doing  29 that.  Not only the grouse but other small animals,  30 like fox or might be a moose.  And by making a clear  31 cut, when there is no other place where the big animal  32 can stay like the moose or deer, and they probably  33 kill some of the small animal, too, like the big  34 animal.  And during the wintertime even if they are  35 cutting along March and that's when the bear having  36 the young ones, too.  And that's where they destroy  37 most of the bears, too, but they wouldn't say anything  38 about it.  Because the bears still have a den into the  39 roots or they have a den into a tree.  And they cut  40 those trees off.  They probably seeing a lot of bear  41 during the winter while they are falling all those  42 tree.  Because they cut about -- some place they cut  43 about two or three section of area in the wintertime.  44 Q   Are there places on Gitludahl's territory where you  45 can still trap marten?  Are there some places on  46 Gitludahl's territory where you can still get marten?  47 A  Well, not close by the river where I used to trap 6159  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  A  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  MR. RUSH:  39  40  41  THE COURT  42  A  43  44  THE COURT  45  46  47  MR. RUSH:  before.  I used to trap long the river and along the  road.  The river, is that the Kispiox River?  Kispiox River, yes.  And the only place where it's  left is up on the west side of it.  The west side of the territory?  Yes.  And right up in the mountain.  But now I seen  they cut the road right up to the top and right up to  the edge of the territory.  Are you still able to hunt on the territory?  Well, the only thing I can hunt in along there is like  beaver or deer or moose.  Okay.  Has it affected the number of moose or deer?  Well, the moose, they are moving out on further onto  where they can have safety into a timber.  Okay.  And where do you hunt the moose today?  On  Gitludahl's territory?  Well, I can hunt moose along the -- along the west  side of the Kispiox River.  They have a little spot in  there where you can go flu.  There is some little  patch of green where it's mostly like poplar trees  will be standing there.  They want to take the moose  or deer.  And from your observation in what direction is the  logging moving?  Well, they move all the way up northwest and northeast  and both sides of the Kispiox River.  Okay.  And are you able to say how far north the  logging has reached?  Yes.  The logging has reached on the east side of the  Kispiox River is it started right from the Ironside  Creek in a ridge goes through Gitludahl's territory  and it goes right through Wii muglusxw territory, Art  Wilson, and it goes right through Gwiiyeehl's  territory and they start going right up to the  mountain towards Gwiiyeehl's territory.  They getting  right close to the top of the mountain there now.  My lord, if you look at the map that's in front of  you Delgamuukw's territory shows the Ironside, you can  see Ironside Creek and the basement.  :  On what side?  And it goes right up the Sweet In River and beyond  Sweet In River right up the Nangeese Lake.  :  Yes.  I have Ironside.  I thought he said that the  logging had proceeded right up into Gwiiyeehl's  territory.  Yes, he did say that, but he also mentioned Ironside. 6160  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  THE COURT  2  3  MR. RUSH:  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  47  Q  :  And easterly to Ironside Creek in Delgamuukw's  territory.  That's right.  And he mentioned Wii muglusxw and  Gwiiyehl.  The cabin that you indicated was just south of Twin  Lakes, Naa dax de'et?  Yes.  Was there any logging or is there logging that has  occurred around your cabin?  Yes.  They all cleaned the logging right out from the  cabin, right around the cabin.  Is the cabin still standing?  The cabin is still standing.  Prior to the logging were there trees up right to the  cabin?  Yeah.  Now, you mentioned as well, Mr. Muldoe, I believe in  your testimony yesterday that there was a cabin or  there was a cabin at Deadhorse Creek?  Yes.  On Wiigyet's territory?  Yes.  You also, I think, indicated there was a cabin at Deep  Canoe?  Yes.  Now, did you use the cabin at Deep Canoe?  Yeah.  Okay.  Eric is using the cabin.  That cabin is being used today by Eric, is it?  Yes.  Who is Eric?  Eric McPherson is one of my grandsons.  And what name does he hold?  He use the name of Luu goo'mx.  That's a name you once held?  Yes.  And is that a name of Wiigyet's house?  Yes.  Now, does Eric McPherson live there today?  Well, he goes in there every now and then, like goes  in for two weeks or three weeks and he goes in there  every year.  Okay.  And how do you get to this cabin?  You walk into it.  You can drive partways, but the  rest of the way you can walk in.  And how far do you have to walk in, what distance is 6161  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  A  3  4  THE  COURT  5  6  MR.  RUSH:  7  8  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  RUSH:  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  MR.  RUSH:  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  RUSH:  28  29  THE  COURT  30  31  32  33  MR.  RUSH:  34  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  RUSH:  37  THE  COURT  38  MR.  RUSH:  39  40  THE  COURT  41  42  MR.  RUSH:  43  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  RUSH:  46  Q  47  A  it in order to get there?  Oh, it's approximately about 16 -- 16, 14 or 16 miles.  Maybe less.  :  I am sorry, I am not sure I am clear on which side  of the river this cabin is on.  All right.  I am going to ask if you could just  produce the map to Mr. Muldoe.  I'll ask you to look  in the Wiigyet territory, my lord.  :  All right.  And, Mr. Muldoe, this is the Wiigyet territory?  Uh-huh.  And you'll see Deep Canoe Creek there.  See the Deep  Canoe in the upper part?  Yes.  That's Xsi wiil Daxyan you told us yesterday?  Yes.  Now, there is a little black pyramid or triangle  there.  Is that the place where the cabin is located?  Yes.  Is that where Eric McPherson --  Yes.  -- uses the cabin?  Yes.  Does your lordship have that?  :  Well, yes, I think so.  I found Deep Canoe Creek.  And you will see just below Deep Canoe Creek there  are the words Xsi wiil Daxyan.  :  Yes.  And it's the one that's -- it looks like it's  on the creek, which I don't think is Deep Canoe Creek.  It seems to be a creek coming in from the north with a  dotted line on each side of it.  No, my lord.  I think Deep Canoe runs on this map  east to west.  :  Yes, I have that.  Excuse me.  West to east into the Skeena.  :  Yes.  And the little dotted line that you see, I'm going to  ask the witness about that.  :  But is the cabin that we're talking about at the  southern end of those two dotted lines?  It's not at the southern end.  Does your lordship  have the --  :  Well, let's —  Yes.  Mr. Muldoe, the cabin that you're talking about --  That's the one on that. 6162  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  THE COURT  2  MR. RUSH:  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  :  Yes, that's the one I was talking about.  Yes.  Thank you.  How close is that to Xsi wiil Daxyan?  How close is it  to the creek?  It's about -- about a 150 yards as you are going up  the hill pretty steep and going across after you get  across the Xsi wiil Daxyan.  You just get up the top  of the hill and the trail will be right there.  It  will be less than a quarter of a mile.  And how far is it from the trail that passes by?  It's about 150 feet or so.  And -- okay.  It's on the left side of Xsi wiil Daxyan as you are  looking downstream.  Okay.  Now, you say that Eric walks in there?  Yes.  Who maintains the trail up to the cabin?  Well, before Eric was ever going in there, one of my  sons went in there, Lloyd, and he went in in the  wintertime when they keep up the trail and I go in  there, too.  We keep on opening the trail right along  as we go along, and also Eric open up some part of the  trail as he goes up, too.  Okay.  Does Eric maintain the trail today?  Yes.  Lloyd, your son, is is that Lloyd Morrison?  Lloyd Muldoe.  Lloyd Muldoe?  Yeah.  Okay.  Now, there is a cabin at Deep -- excuse me,  Deadhorse?  Yeah.  That's a lake, is it?  Yes.  Okay.  And I would like you to just look at the map  again, Mr. Muldoe, and can you see where the cabin at  Deadhorse is located?  Right in there.  Okay.  You are pointing to the little black triangle?  Yes.  That's below the one that you indicated was at Deep  Canoe?  Yeah.  Okay.  Is that black patch below the triangle, is that  the lake?  That's the lake.  Now, do you hunt in this area today, Mr. Muldoe?  I 6163  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  THE COURT  27  THE INTER  28  A  29  MR. RUSH:  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  mean not exactly today, but in the last few years?  In '76 I was in there.  Which year?  Yes, '76 when I went in there, I was hunting in there.  Okay.  Have you -- what were you hunting when you were  there?  Well, I went in there for trapping and before that,  too, in '76, '75 I think I was in there, too, trapping  in there for marten, fisher, whatever I can get.  Okay.  Were you trapping with anyone?  Who were you  with?  I was with Vincent.  Vincent Muldoe?  Muldoe, yeah.  Grandson?  Grandson.  Okay.  And how old was Vincent?  He's about 18.  17, 18.  Okay.  I just want to ask you if it was '76 or '86, do  you remember -- how old was Vincent?  '86.  Vincent wouldn't have been 18 in '76?  I made a mistake.  '86.  All right.  I have gone back ten years.  :  So it was 1986?  It was 1986?  URETER:  1986?  Did any of your other grandsons go with you, Mr.  Muldoe?  Kirby.  And when you were with Vincent and Kirby, did you  explain where to trap or where to hunt?  Yes.  Did you show them things?  I told them the place.  Where did you show them to trap and to hunt when you  were with them?  When they first come out with me, they come out with  me on the Twin Lakes territory.  And I bought them a  trap about two dozen, two and a half dozen traps,  something like that, and I take them out there and I  showed them where to go and showed them how the -- how  to set the traps as they go along.  There is two of  them on the same trapline and they were trapping  through that all that winter and I have my traps to go 6164  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 on, too.  2 Q   Okay.  Did you tell them about places on the  3 territory?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Okay.  And did you point out the places where they  6 could hunt?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Was there hunting done by the three of you then?  9 A  Well, usually hunt in there whenever the season --  10 whenever the season is open, they go in to hunt.  11 Q   Was 1986 the first year that you were there with  12 Vincent and Kirby?  13 A   Yeah.  14 Q   The first year?  15 A  Well, before that.  16 Q   Yes.  17 A   It's in -- I was in Gitludahl's territory and I think  18 it was in -- it must be about ten years before that, I  19 think.  20 Q   With Vincent and Kirby?  21 A   Kirby, yes.  They were pretty small at the time.  22 Q   Okay.  23 A   They were about somewhere between eight or ten years  24 of age when I first took them out.  25 Q   And between when they first went out with you in 1986,  26 did they go out each year between then?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Okay.  Yesterday you mentioned Cullon Creek?  2 9 A   Uh-huh.  30 Q   Did you do any hunting or trapping around Cullon  31 Creek?  32 A  Well, our traplines run right up along on the west  33 side of the Cullon Creek as you're coming down.  It  34 goes all the way along the telegraph trail right up to  35 Deadhorse.  36 Q   I think you mentioned a hill called Burnt Hill?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And was there any hunting or trapping done by you  39 around Burnt Hill?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Now, Mr. Muldoe, I want to ask you about another area  42 where you've done some hunting and some trapping.  43 Have you trapped on your son's territory --  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   -- at Gwinageese?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   That's G-w-i-n-a-g-e-e-s-e.  And if you look at map 6165  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 that's in front of you, Mr. Muldoe, whereabouts is the  2 area where the Gwinageese territory is located?  3 A   Gwinageese territory is just outside of this map here.  4 It's not more than about two miles towards this way.  5 Sort of northwest.  6 Q   It shows Wisen skit on the side of the map here of  7 Antgulilbix territory?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   Is it northwest of there?  10 A   It's northwest of there.  11 Q   And what part of the Gwinageese territory did you go  12 to?  13 A  We go to the Gwinageese Lake which they have on the  14 map.  They call it Fred Wright Lake, but it's not the  15 proper name for that.  It's the one that's supposed to  16 be Gwinageese, but the next lake from that they call  17 Gwinageese, but it's wrong.  18 Q   Okay.  Is Fred Wright Lake, that's what --  19 A   Proper place to call Gwinageese.  20 Q   It should be called Gwinageese?  21 A   Gwinageese, yes.  22 Q   And when you say Fred Wright Lake is wrong --  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   -- you mean it's described wrong on the government  2 5 map?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Now, you said that the territory went off to the  28 northwest of the map that's in front of you?  2 9 A   Yeah.  30 Q   About how many miles, if you were to go northwest from  31 the upper left-hand corner of the map, how many miles  32 is Gwinageese Lake?  33 A  Antgulilbix territory is joined right in with  34 Delgamuukw's territory and it goes as far as the place  35 they call Xsi an dap matx.  On both side of Gwinageese  36 River as Gwinageese River runs north, northwest like.  37 Q   And Gwinageese Lake that you've been talking about to  38 the northwest, about how many miles off the corner  39 over here would you say it was to the --  40 A   It runs right up to --  41 Q   The lake item just -- just the lake?  42 A   Oh, just the lake.  The lake is about pretty close to  43 three mile long, I think.  44 Q   Okay.  And how far off the edge here if we were to --  45 the map isn't quite big enough to take in the lake.  4 6 A   Yeah.  47 Q   How far over to the -- to the west would the lake be 6166  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  A  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  RUSH:  COURT:  THE COURT  in miles just let us say from Wisen skit --  Wisen skit.  -- to Gwinageese Lake?  To Gwinageese Lake, approximating from Williams Lake  to Gwinageese Lake is -- takes about two, two and a  half mile or something like that before you get into  Gwinageese Lake.  Okay.  And Williams Lake is right here on the corner  of this little point here?  Yeah.  All right.  Now, Mr. Muldoe, that -- that territory is  Delgamuukw's territory?  Yes.  And your son, Ken Muldoe --  Yes.  -- he holds the name of Delgamuukw?  Yeah.  Now, when did you first go in there, do you remember  how many years ago it was?  It's about -- I believe it's about -- I am not sure  whether it's about 15 years ago.  Something like that.  Okay.  And who were you in there with?  Well, when they first went in there the boys got a --  hired a plane from Hazelton to take them in there.  :  I am sorry, Mr. Rush, are you saying this territory  belongs to Delgamuukw, are you talking about the  Delgamuukw territory that's marked on this map?  No.  :  Or beyond the west boundary of Antgulilbix  territory.  Yes.  He's addressing Delgamuukw territory that's off  to the northwest of Antgulilbix territory and  regrettably it's --  Delgamuukw's territory is joined right with  Antgulilbix territory on the north side.  :  Well, is that not beyond the --  No, my lord.  :  -- the west?  You see here, this is --  :  Looking at Exhibit 5.  This is Exhibit 5 for identification.  :  Yes.  This is the territory here.  This is the northwest  of --  :  Yes.  All right.  Well, then with the greatest of  respect to Mr. Macaulay who's not here -- no, I don't  need to worry about Mr. Macaulay.  It is inside the 6167  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  MR.  RUSH:  3  THE  COURT  4  5  MR.  RUSH:  6  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  RUSH:  9  THE  COURT  10  11  MR.  RUSH:  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  RUSH:  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  RUSH:  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  boundary.  Yes.  :  Yes.  All right.  I know where you mean now.  Thank  you.  Now, Mr. Muldoe is not speaking to the territorial  boundary.  :  No.  But he is speaking to what he has done there.  :  Yes.  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  I understand  what you're saying.  Thank you.  Now, you have referred to going in with the boys, Mr.  Muldoe?  Yes.  Who are the boys?  There is Lloyd, Earl.  This is --  Earl Muldoe.  Earl Muldoe?  Lloyd Muldoe.  Lloyd Muldoe?  Albert Tait.  And is that Albert Tait who held the name  Delgamuukw --  Yes.  -- at that time?  Yes.  :  Sorry, is T-a-i-t or T-a-t-e.  T-a-i-t.  :  Thank you.  Did your wife go into the territory, Mr. Muldoe?  Yes.  And what house was your wife in?  With Delgamuukw's house.  Now, when you went in there, was there a cabin there?  Well, there was a cabin there.  It's built by one of  the white guys in there.  Did Albert or Earl or Ken build a cabin in there?  We built a cabin in there later.  Okay.  After Earl and George and me, Kenny, Lloyd.  And -- okay.  About how long ago was that cabin built  by you?  That's about 15 years ago, I think.  Now, you said there was somebody -- a cabin that was  built by a white person you said? 6168  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  MR. macke:  15  THE COURT  16  MR. RUSH:  17  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  MR. macke:  27  MR. RUSH:  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  Yes.  What happened to that?  Still there yet.  Is it used by that white person?  He was used it while he was still there.  What happened to him?  When they get there and they have to talk about  Gwinageese, this person was running sporting goods in  New Hazelton and they start talking about Gwinageese,  how good a country it was and they said he's going to  move out there and that's when Albert asked him what  was he doing out there, he said he was going to do  some trapping.  JZIE:  Excuse me, that's hearsay, my lord.  :  Yes, it is.  I am not really leading it for the proof of it.  I am  leading it for the purposes of determining what  happened to the person.  Now, after the discussion that this person had with  Albert — is that Albert Tait?  Albert Tait, Delgamuukw.  What did the guy do?  Well, he told -- when he was in the territory at his  cabin, he told him to get out of there.  He said you  are trespassing.  JZIE:  I object to that evidence, my lord.  All right.  Now, without going into what was said  between Albert and the man -- what was the man's name  by the way, do you know?  Bernie.  Bernie?  But I don't know his last name.  What did Bernie do after Albert talked to him?  He never did go back there again.  Now, you say that you and your sons built a cabin out  there?  Yes.  Where is that cabin located?  It's located right at the mouth of Gwinageese Lake.  Mouth of the creek.  That's Gwinageese, the creek runs  out from Gwinageese.  About how far is it from Gwinageese Lake?  About a hundred feet from the lakeshore.  All right.  Now, was there another cabin that was  built out there?  Yes. 6169  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   When was that built?  2 A   That was built in — built in '85 or '8 — '85 or '84  3 when they build that cabin.  4 Q   Did you help -- did you help with that?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And where is that cabin located?  7 A   It's about five miles from Gwinageese Lake.  8 Q   In which direction?  9 A   North -- northeast from the Gwinageese Lake, more like  10 northeast, I believe.  11 Q   Okay.  And who else helped in building that cabin?  12 A   That was Earl, Lloyd, myself, George and we had some  13 other boys that's helping there too.  14 Q   Okay.  Why did you build that cabin just that distance  15 about five miles north?  16 A  Well, like early in the fall we can trap around  17 Gwinageese Lake, but later on it gets into about  18 November that the lake is -- you can't travel through  19 there, but early in the fall we can go through there  20 with the boat and get in and out by speedboat.  But  21 later in the fall when the lake start freezing, well,  22 we can't get over there; it's not so handy and it's  23 not so safe, so they decided to build another cabin  24 down below there.  25 Q   Okay.  Now, in the summer or the fall, do you keep a  26 boat --  27 A   Yeah.  28 Q   -- on the lake --  2 9 A   Yeah.  30 Q   -- to help you move around?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Okay.  And in the wintertime when you cannot use the  33 boat and the lake is frozen over, how do you get to  34 that northern cabin?  35 A  We get in there with the Skidoo.  36 Q   Now, from 19 -- about 15 years ago when you said that  37 you first went in there, what did you do when you went  38 into the territory?  39 A  We built a cabin and cutting the trail opening.  First  40 thing we got to do is build a cabin and take all our  41 supplies in there.  Then from there on we open a trail  42 up.  43 Q   Did you -- did you take in the supplies?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And was your son Ken up there?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   When you did that, what did he do out there? 6170  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   He was doing the same thing as the rest of us.  He was  2 helping us build a cabin and cutting the trail open.  3 Q   And does your son trap up there, Ken?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   What about Earl or Lloyd?  6 A   Lloyd is trapping in there.  And also the wife is in  7 there, too.  8 Q   Yes.  9 A  And I was trapping in there the first few years I was  10 in there.  11 Q   Okay.  Now, have you been to the territory at  12 Gwinageese Lake recently?  13 A   Yes, I have.  I was in there last '77, late -- '88 --  14 '87, '88, yeah.  That was just last winter, last fall  15 and last winter.  16 Q   When you say that you were there '87, '88, were you  17 there in January of 1988, this year?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And who did you go with then?  20 A   I go in there with Lloyd, Lloyd Muldoe, myself and  21 Victor Mowatt.  22 Q   Victor Mowatt?  23 A  Victor Mowatt.  24 Q   Okay.  25 A  And my wife.  Then once in awhile some of our  26 grandchildren would come out there when, like during a  27 long weekend or something like that when he comes out  28 there, too.  29 Q   All right.  I want to -- was there anyone else, Mr.  30 Muldoe, that you could remember that was --  31 A   Kenny was out there, too.  32 Q   Kenny.  That's Ken Muldoe, your son?  33 A   Yes.  Ken Muldoe.  34 Q   All right.  I want to ask you to look at the document  35 book, please.  I am going to direct you to tab nine of  36 this book.  And this is a photograph of a young boy  37 and a cabin?  38 A   Uh-huh.  39 Q   And can you identify this cabin?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Which one of the cabins -- which cabin is that?  42 A   This cabin is built from about five miles from  43 Gwinageese Lake.  That's closer to Gwinageese River.  44 Q   That's the one that's closer to Gwinageese River?  45 A   Yes.  Approximately about two and a half miles from  46 Gwinageese River.  47 Q   Okay.  And is this the one that was built by the 6171  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  people that you've earlier mentioned in your  testimony?  A  Well, this was the latest one we built, this one here.  Q   Okay.  Who's that in front of the cabin, the young man  there?  A   It's one of my grandsons, Jordan Williams.  Q   And when was that --  COURT:  I am sorry, George or Jordan?  A   Jordan Williams.  COURT:  Jordan, thank you.  RUSH:  Q   And when was that photograph taken, Mr. Muldoe?  A   It was taken in January.  Q   Of this year?  A   This year.  RUSH:  May that be the next exhibit, please.  REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 476.  (EXHIBIT 476:  Tab 9 of document book, photograph of  Jordan Williams)  MR.  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  MR.  THE  A  RUSH:  REGISTRAR:  Okay.  Now, I want to direct your attention now to tab  15.  And do you recognize the man in the red jacket?  Yes.  Is that your son, Ken?  Ken Muldoe, yes.  Yes.  And when was that photograph taken?  That was taken this year, '88, in January sometime.  At the same time as the one you've just talked about?  Yeah.  And whereabouts is that located?  This here is located just in the bottom end of Bonny  Lake.  Okay.  Is it on --  It's a bridge right at where the mouth of the creek  runs out there.  Is this on Delgamuukw's territory?  Yes.  Now, in that occasion did you do any hunting or  trapping on the territory when you were up there with  Ken on this occasion?  Did you do hunting and trapping  there?  Yes.  You did.  May that be the next exhibit.  477. 6172  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 (EXHIBIT 477: Tab 15, photograph of Ken Muldoe)  2  3 THE COURT:  What is that he has on the Skidoo?  Is that a sled  4 of some sort or what is it?  Laying across what looks  5 like in front of the handle bars.  6 THE INTERPRETER:  He thinks it's a gun.  7 THE COURT:  A gun.  8 THE INTERPRETER:  In a case.  9 THE COURT:  Oh.  Yes.  Thank you.  10 MR. RUSH:  Excuse me for just a moment.  All right.  Thank you.  11 Q   I will just be referring to that in a moment, Mr.  12 Muldoe.  I'd like now to, if you will, refer to the  13 next photograph in the next tab, 16.  14 Now, my lord, I think you have the only print of  15 this and with your permission I'd like to show the  16 original.  All of rest of us have a photocopy.  Thank  17 you.  18 Now, Mr. Muldoe, can you identify the people in  19 the photograph?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And who are the people in the photograph?  22 A   This is one of my grandsons and the other one behind  2 3 me.  24 Q   They are your grandsons?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   You are in the photograph there?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Driving the second of the two Skidoos?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Okay.  Was this photograph taken at the same time as  31 the other photographs?  32 A   Yes.  It was taken at -- we are coming out after  33 taking a rest as we are coming out for a weekend.  34 Q   Okay.  Now, you appear to be on a bridge there?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   What -- is that a -- what river or creek or water is  37 that a bridge over?  38 A   It's Gwinageese River, Gwinageese Creek at the head of  39 Gwinageese Lake and going into the next lake to one  40 they call Gwinageese Lake by the wrong name.  41 Q   And is this on Delgamuukw's territory?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   Now, that bridge that's located there, Mr. Muldoe, can  44 you tell his lordship who built the bridge?  45 A   Lloyd and Earl and George was building a bridge.  46 Q   And did you have a part in it?  47 A   Yes.  I helped in part of it, too. 6173  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Now, do you -- do you or your sons maintain the  2 bridge -- this bridge?  Do you keep it up?  3 A  Well, I keep it up right along as long as I was there  4 after I clean the snow right along quite often so we  5 didn't get too much weight on it.  6 Q   Okay.  Do you maintain other bridges on the trails in  7 the territory?  8 A   Yes.  The one bridge, the one that Kenny's picture was  9 on it, we have to clean that off, too.  10 Q   And by that one you mean the bridge that's located at  11 tab 15?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Okay.  14 A   Yeah, the bridge doesn't show in that other one there.  15 Just this side.  16 Q   Okay.  The bridge that's at tab 16 where you are shown  17 driving one of the Skidoos and your two grandsons are  18 there, about how long ago was that bridge built?  19 A  We built that early in the fall.  It's about the last  20 part of September or the first week of September --  21 October, something like that.  22 Q   And what year was that?  23 A   In '87.  24 Q   '87?  25 A   Yeah.  26 Q   Was there a bridge there before?  27 A  Well, the fishery had a bridge there so you can cross  28 with the pickup, but it's rotten down and all washed  2 9 down, rotten down and they wouldn't replace it.  30 Q   And you built this one to replace it, did you?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   All right.  Now, about how far is that bridge from  33 where the cabin that's shown in the photograph at tab  34 nine?  35 A   From the bridge -- from the bridge to the cabin is  36 approximately about three miles.  37 Q   Okay.  Is that along a trail?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Do you maintain the trail?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And what do you have to do to maintain the trail  42 there?  43 A  Well, at first when we got to open up the trail, it's  44 the fishery that puts in that sort of a four-by-four  45 road in there before, but all the things been grown in  46 so they have to go in, walk in there and cut the brush  47 open and windfall and all that so I can get in there 6174  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  MR.  RUSH:  27  THE  COURT  28  THE  REGIS1  29  30  31  32  MR.  RUSH:  33  THE  COURT  34  35  36  MR.  RUSH:  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  again.  Do you do that and your sons do that?  Yeah.  Okay.  Mr. Muldoe, how long does it take you to get to  the cabin that you use in the wintertime from where  you park your vehicle?  Like you mean from the bridge here?  No.  Or from the main road?  From the main road.  From the main road?  Yes.  It takes us about anywhere from -- drive from the main  road to the cabin, it takes us about anywhere from two  hours to two and a half hours.  It all depends on the  weather and the road condition.  All right.  And do you maintain the trail from where  you park your vehicle to this bridge?  Yeah.  Can you say -- you said that you were first there 15  years ago yourself?  Yeah.  In that period have you and your sons and grandsons  been maintaining the trail on this territory?  Yes.  May that be the next exhibit, my lord.  :  Yes.  Thank you.  Exhibit 478.  PRAR:  47 8.  (EXHIBIT 478:  Tab 16, photograph)  There is the original copy there.  :  If you are keeping track, Mr. Rush, I am going to  put the original in the court's copy and I will take a  photocopy.  Yes.  Thank you.  On the occasion that you were at Gwinageese in the  later part of 1987 and into January of 1988, were you  trapping yourself there on that occasion?  I was there -- the wife was out there, too, and Lloyd.  Okay.  Did they have -- were they trapping with you?  Yes.  Okay.  Did you have a -- your own trapline?  Yes.  And did you do any hunting?  Well, it's not too much game out there.  It's early in  the fall when they can hunt the moose in there and 6175  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 something like that.  2 Q   All right.  Now, on that occasion that you were there  3 in January of 1988, did you catch any game?  Did you  4 trap any animals?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   Okay.  I want to show you a photograph, Mr. Muldoe,  7 that's at tab ten of your document book.  That's a  8 photograph of you?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Okay.  And where is this photograph taken?  11 A   It was taken at the cabin, the one we just looking at  12 a little while ago.  13 Q   Okay.  And what is it that you are doing there?  14 A   I am there stretching a marten.  15 Q   Okay.  And what is it that you are stretching it onto?  16 What is that that you appear to be stretching it on?  17 Looks like a piece of wood of some kind?  18 A   Oh, a stretcher, a marten stretcher.  They call it a  19 marten stretcher.  20 Q   Okay.  Do you make those?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   Now, Mr. Muldoe, have you always used a stretcher like  23 that?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Have you used a stretcher like that all of your life?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Okay.  Did you ever use any other kind of stretcher as  28 well to stretch marten?  29 A  Well, it all depends on what kind of animal you got.  30 If you got a big animal you got to have a big  31 stretcher.  Like fox, coyote, lynx or anything like  32 that.  Wolf, wolverine.  It all depends on the size of  33 an animal.  You got to make a bigger stretcher for  34 each one of them.  35 Q   And how is the marten fur held to the stretcher?  In  36 what way do you keep the marten fur on the stretcher?  37 A   On a stretcher you turn the hide on the outside, the  38 fur is against the wood.  39 Q   For what kind of animals do you use this stretcher  40 that you've got in the photograph?  Is that just used  41 for marten?  42 A   Strictly for marten, yes.  43 Q   Okay.  Do you use a stretcher -- do you use a  44 different kind of stretcher for fisher or --  45 A   Yes.  A bigger stretcher.  The same shape of stretcher  46 but it's bigger.  47 Q   Okay.  How long does it take you to stretch a marten 6176  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  like that?  A   Oh, sometimes you have to skin a marten and stretch  it, maybe say about half an hour or 20 minutes.  Q   Okay.  How many have you done at a time?  A   Sometimes two.  The most I done is about 18.  Q   Okay.  Must be a good night's work?  A   Oh, yeah.  RUSH:  Can that be the next exhibit, please.  COURT:  Yes.  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  MR.  REGISTRAR:  479, tab ten.  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  RUSH:  THE COURT  (EXHIBIT 479:  Tab 10, Photograph of Pete Muldoe)  All right.  Mr. Muldoe, I'd like you to have a look  now at the next tab which is tab 11.  It's another  photograph of you?  Yes.  And who's the young boy there with you?  It's one of my grandsons, Irvin.  Irvin?  Johnson.  Okay.  And it's not possible because of the angle of  the photograph to see what you are doing.  What are  you doing in this photograph?  I was skinning a marten.  Okay.  And were you showing that to anyone?  Yes.  He is standing by watching me and I was showing  how it's done and what you do with it.  How many of your grandsons were with you on that  occasion?  Yeah.  How many?  How many of your grandsons?  Two of them was out there.  Okay.  Was this photograph taken at the same time as  the other photographs --  Yes.  -- that I have been showing you?  Yes.  That's in January of 1988?  Yes.  May that be the next exhibit, please.  :  Yes.  THE REGISTRAR:  480.  (EXHIBIT 480:  grandson)  Tab 11, photograph of Mr. Muldoe with 6177  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2    ]  MR. RUSH  3  Q  4  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  Okay.  Now, Mr. Muldoe, I will ask you to look at tab  12, if you will, please.  Now, this appears to be one  of the grandsons that -- you have tab 12 in front of  you?  Yes.  One of your grandsons that was in the previous  photograph?  Yes.  He was watching me skinning the marten and he  was watching me stretching the marten.  Okay.  Now, there are two grandsons here, are there --  Yes.  -- in this photograph?  Yes.  And I think you mentioned that one's name was Jordan?  Jordan Williams.  And that's the one in the white shirt?  Yes.  And the other one's name is --  Irvin Johnson.  And that's taken at the same time, is it?  Yes.  And what are they doing there?  Well, the oldest grandson is stretching a marten.  And where did they get that marten from?  Oh, they were catching -- they set a few traps and  they catch a marten of their own.  Is that the one that they caught of their own?  Yeah.  Now, do you have a number of these stretchers around  the cabin, Mr. Muldoe?  Yes, I had about 20 of them a little -- or maybe 24 or  something like that.  Okay.  And how did they learn to stretch the marten  like it's shown there?  Well, they learned from me by showing them what to do  and how to skin a marten and Irvin -- they can skin a  marten and they can stretch a marten.  And also even  now he can skin a beaver and he shoots a few beaver,  too.  He shoots a few, does he?  Okay.  Was this the first  time that your boys had been up there, the grandsons?  Yes.  That's a long weekend when they were out there.  Okay.  Had they been up there with you on an earlier  occasion, earlier that year or the year before?  They usually come up with us and they usually come 617?  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  back to school again.  MR. RUSH:   Okay.  Might that be the next exhibit, my lord.  THE COURT:  Yes.  481.  THE REGISTRAR:  481.  (EXHIBIT 481:  Tab 12, Photograph of two grandsons)  MR.  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR.  A  Q  A  A  A  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  Okay.  Now, Mr. Muldoe, I'd like you to look at the  next photograph which was at tab 13.  There appears to  be a picture of the same two grandsons, is that right?  Yes.  Was that taken at the same time?  Yes, it was taken at the same time.  And what are they holding?  What's in their --  Marten.  Okay.  And where did these marten come from, these  particular ones they are holding?  Well, they caught them in Delgamuukw's territory.  And  the two boys there, they were catching those marten by  themselves.  And in the background in the photograph if you look at  the photograph, Mr. --  Yes.  — Muldoe.  You can see in the background there there must be  about 20 marten or so to stretch right behind there.  Oh, I see.  Yes.  And are those stretchers hanging on  the wall behind there?  Yes.  Some up on the wall and some up on the ceiling.  I don't know if there is another one here.  I am just going to show you another photograph that I  think shows that a little better.  Yes.  Some on the wall behind where they were standing  there.  Okay.  Might that be the next exhibit, please.  :  Yes.  THE REGISTRAR:  482.  RUSH:  Q  A  (EXHIBIT 482:  Tab 13, Photograph of two grandsons)  Now, Mr. Muldoe, I'll show you tab 14, please.  I am  showing you the photograph there.  Is that a  photograph that was taken at the same time as the  other photographs in January of 1988?  Yes. 6179  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  MR. RUSH  Q   All right.  And what does it show in that photograph?  A  Well, it shows some of the fresh caught marten, some  of them are in stretcher.  Q   The ones on -- looks -- is this -- looks like the ones  in the ceiling are on stretchers, are they?  A   Yeah.  They are all marten that's up on the ceiling  there.  Q   And the ones that are --  A   The one that is hanging -- the ones that are hanging  there, it's freshly caught and they are frozen.  They  are thawing them out before stretching them, I mean  skinning them.  Q   Okay.  And is this a photograph taken inside the  cabin?  Yes.  And is that the same cabin that was the photograph in  tab nine?  Yes.  The one you identified earlier.  Thank you.  Might  that be the next exhibit, please.  THE COURT:  Yes.  THE REGISTRAR:  483, tab 14.  (EXHIBIT 483:  Tab 14, Photograph)  THE COURT:  Is it convenient to take the morning adjournment,  Mr. Rush.  MR. RUSH:  Yes, it is.  Thank you.  THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED PURSUANT TO MORNING RECESS)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Laara Yardley,  Official Reporter,  United Reporting Service Ltd.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RECONVENED PURSUANT TO THE 6180  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 MORNING BREAK)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Ready to proceed, my lord.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  5 MR. RUSH:  6 Q   Thank you.  At Gwinageese Lake, Mr. Muldoe, is there  7 fishing there?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   What do you fish for?  10 A  Well, in the lake they can fish for coho, Dolly  11 Varden, lake trout.  12 Q   Is there any fishing in the creeks?  13 A   Yes, there are.  14 Q   Gwinageese Creek or Gwinageese River?  15 A   Yes, steelhead and coho and the spring salmon in the  16 spring.  17 Q   Is there any winter fishing?  Do you fish through the  18 ice?  19 A  Well, it's -- down by the river.  You can fish down  20 the river with trout or Dolly Varden or steelhead.  21 Q   Do you trap beaver at Gwinageese?  22 A   I didn't have too much time to go out to the lake in  23 the spring, you know.  Besides, it's hard to get in  24 there.  25 Q   You have trapped beaver in other places --  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   -- on your own territory?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   And you've obtained beaver I think at -- you mentioned  30 at Gitludahl's territory?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Do you skin the beaver, and do you stretch it in the  33 same way that you've shown the court that you  34 stretched the marten?  35 A   Yeah.  36 Q   What do you do with the meat of the beaver?  37 A  Well, we keep the meat.  Skin all the bones out of it  38 and keep the meat, and keep it in to dry it and  39 smoke -- smoke cure it.  40 Q   And how do you use it?  How do you yourself use the  41 meat of the beaver?  42 A  Well, we use -- we use the meat ourselves once in a  43 while, but not too often, but by cooking and boiling.  44 Q   And do you use the meat of the beaver at the feast?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And where does the beaver meat that you use at the  47 feast, where does that come from? 6181  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   It come from like Gitludahl's territory and came from  2 Wiigyet's territory.  3 Q   Do you eat -- do you eat other bush food such as  4 moose?  5 A   Oh, yeah.  6 Q   How regularly do you eat moose?  7 A  Well, might be once a week or so.  8 Q   Do you eat salmon regularly?  9 A   It's the same thing.  It might be once a week.  10 Q   How do you store your moose and your salmon?  11 A  Well, mostly the fresh meat and moose, we store them  12 into a freezer, and the salmon mostly in the cans or  13 some frozen, keeping it in the freezer.  14 Q   Have you eaten moose and salmon and beaver meat  15 throughout your whole life?  16 A   Yeah.  17 Q   Is that true with other members of your family?  18 A   Yes.  Some of the -- some of them don't eat but --  19 like beaver meat.  Some of them don't eat it.  But  20 other moose meat or fish, they all use them.  21 Q   Do you -- do you eat oolichan grease?  22 A  A little.  23 Q   And berries?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Does your wife or do you put up berries?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   How often do you eat berries?  28 A  Well, we have berries and other fruit.  Have a  29 different variety of fruit.  In fact, we have fruit  30 just about every day in our home anyway.  31 Q   And what kind of berries do you eat?  32 A  Mostly huckleberries and blueberries, raspberries.  33 Q   Does your wife or do you or other members of your  34 family pick the huckleberries and the blueberries?  35 A  Well, it's just me and the wife or some of the family  36 usually comes out and pick blueberry for a few days  37 and huckleberries.  38 Q   And are there berry patches on Gitludahl's territory  39 or on Wiigyet's territory?  40 A  Well, there's a little blueberries on the -- on the  41 Gitludahl's territory, but mostly on the Wiigyet's  42 territory around Kuldo.  There is a lot of  43 huckleberries in there and a lot of blueberries around  44 the Old Kuldo, but we don't go that far.  45 Q   And when you and your wife were at Kuldo, did you pick  46 those berries and preserve them?  4 7 A   Yes, we do. 6182  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  MR.  RUSH:  21  THE  TRANS  22  MR.  RUSH:  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  RUSH:  25  THE  COURT  26  MR.  RUSH:  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  47  And the berries that you get from Gitludahl's  territory, are they preserved by you and your wife?  Yes.  Are any of these berries used at the feast?  Yes.  How do you use them at the feast, Mr. Muldoe?  Well, we pass them out in a -- they'll have a little  jar or a little bowl.  Each people -- each people  from -- in the feast, they will have their own  container.  Now, are there other -- other kinds of roots or barks  that you take from the territory?  Yes.  What are some of these other roots or barks?  Well, the type of bark we use for medicines is mostly  spruce, bark of the balsam, and the bark of the  devil's club, Huu'umst.  That's -- the devil's club is Huu'umst?  Yes.  Could I have a spelling for that, please?  IATOR:  It's 752.  Thank you.  :  52.  752.  :  Thank you.  How do you use the spruce or the balsam bark?  Well, you need for making a liquid medicine.  You have  to boil them.  And do you drink that regularly?  Yes.  What effect does it have for you?  Well, it's pretty good if a person is not too well or  they're run down or anything like that.  This type of  medicine, it will make you hungry or purify your blood  if you have some disease, and you will clear it up.  And also the Huu'umst, it will cure you from your  arthritis or anything rheumatic, anything like that.  Okay.  I wanted to ask you about the Huu'umst.  I  think that's the devil's club?  Devil club.  And how do you prepare that?  Well, you can prepare it in two way.  You can --  when -- you have to cut them first, and you have to go  to a certain place where you can find the bigger ones.  But around the village there is a very thin one like  that, but you have to go further back to get a bigger 6183  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 one and easier to -- to work with it.  You have to  2 peel them, peel the outside bark first.  Then when you  3 get all the outside bark, then you have to scrape the  4 inners, inner bark.  And the only certain time that  5 you can take that is like any time before the leaves  6 have started or late in the fall.  7 Q   Do you boil that?  8 A  Well, you can either boil it to make it a liquid, or  9 the inner bark, you can scrape it and put it in a  10 container in a bag and hang it up and let it dry for a  11 few days.  Then you crush it down to a powder like.  12 Q   Do you use that --  13 A   Yes, I use that.  14 Q   -- powder today?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Does your wife use that?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   How many years have you been using that?  19 A   I've been using that for the last ten years when I  20 wasn't feeling too good or something like that.  It's  21 good any time.  22 Q   Is this something you take on a daily basis?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Do you use any other kinds of barks from the territory  25 besides spruce and balsam?  26 A   Yes, spruce and balsam, and -- and sometimes we use  27 the bark of the mountain ash.  2 8 Q   All right.  29 A  And what's the name of the other?  That little bush  30 with the needles on it.  31 THE INTERPRETER:  Juniper.  32 THE WITNESS:  Juniper, mountain juniper.  33 MR. RUSH:  34 Q   Mountain juniper?  35 A  Mountain juniper, yeah.  36 Q   All right.  37 A   That's boiled together with the --  38 Q   And what do you use that for?  39 A   It's the same as -- to use you boil all this in with  4 0 the devil's club.  41 Q   Okay.  Now, I want to ask you, Mr. Muldoe, if you --  42 over the years that you've been hunting and trapping  43 in the territory of Gitludahl and Wiigyet --  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   -- and more recently with your son in Gwinageese, do  46 you use -- do you use snowshoes?  47 A   Yes. 6184  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Do you make them?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And when you make snowshoes, do you make them on the  4 territory or do you make them before you go out and  5 take them up with you?  6 A  Well, you can make snowshoes while you're at home.  If  7 you've got a long ways to go, you don't have to bother  8 taking the snowshoes with you, but you can make them  9 out -- right out on the territory.  10 Q   Have you done that?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   How long do those ones last that you make on the  13 territory?  14 A   The last time was out around Shaladamus.  I was with  15 Alfred Hillis.  And that was the last time I made the  16 snowshoes out in the bush.  17 Q   How many years would those kind of snowshoes last?  18 A   Like the one you make out of a young balsam or a young  19 spruce, they last for about two years if you take care  20 of them, or else you want to get rid of them then you  21 get rid of them the first year.  They wear out so fast  22 after in the spring.  23 Q   Why is that?  24 A   The soft wood.  25 Q   Okay.  Is there a better form of wood that you'd  26 prefer to use other than a soft wood?  27 A   Yes.  If you want to have snowshoes that will last,  28 you make it out of maple.  29 Q   And are those snowshoes that you would make in your  30 home and then pack with you?  31 A   Yes.  They last -- sometimes they last -- I had one  32 made up, and it last me about over 10 years.  33 Q   You've talked about traps that you've used.  Have you  34 made snares?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And what do you use a snare for?  37 A   You use the snares for coyote or fox, lynx.  38 Q   And are these snares that you've made on the  39 territory?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Okay.  And what do you use the snare with?  What kind  42 of -- do you use a pole of some kind or a tree?  43 A  Well, in our days they use -- we use a very fine  44 cable, like -- like the airplane cable.  It's only  45 about one sixteenth of an inch or something like that.  46 We use them.  47 Q   What is that hooked to?  What do you -- what do you 6185  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 put that on?  2 A Well, if you use -- set the snare on a trail, you use  3 a -- put it on a spring pole, and then they have a  4 certain way of holding this spring pole up.  And when  5 any animal runs into that, it goes up and hang them up  6 in the air.  7 Q Okay.  Now, you've told us in your evidence, Mr.  8 Muldoe, that you trapped at Deep Canoe Creek --  9 A Um hum.  10 Q -- in the various places on Wiigyet's territory.  Do  11 you remember the date that you were last at Deep Canoe  12 Creek?  13 A I believe the last time was -- went in in the 40's,  14 and we went in there in '53 again, I guess.  15 Q Was that at Deep Canoe?  16 A Yes.  17 Q Deep Canoe, what is that in --  18 A Xsu wii Daxyan.  19 Q Xsu wii Daxyan?  2 0 A Yeah.  21 Q Now, who were you there with at Xsu wii Daxyan?  22 A I was there with Jeff Harris Senior.  23 Q Were you ever there with your grandsons?  I'm talking  24 now about Deep Canoe.  25 A Pardon?  26 Q Deep Canoe.  27 A Yes.  28 Q Xsu wii Daxyan.  2 9 A Yeah.  30 Q And you were there with your sons or your grandsons?  31 A Well, I was there with one of my nephew, Lloyd  32 Morrison.  33 Q Okay.  Is that -- is that the same place where Eric  34 McPherson has his cabin?  35 A Yes.  36 Q Were you ever there with your grandson Vincent?  37 A No.  38 Q Okay.  39 A We went as far as Deadhorse.  40 Q Oh, you went as far as Deadhorse with your grandson?  41 A Yeah.  42 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  So when was it that you were with your son at  43 Deep Canoe?  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  I don't know that he said that.  45 THE WITNESS:  I believe it was in '53 I think it is.  4 6    MR. RUSH:  47 Q I'm sorry.  Okay. 6186  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A If I'm right, '53 or '63 just on memory.  2 Q It was '53 or '63?  3 A Yeah.  4 MR. RUSH: Okay.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm sorry, my lord.  I don't have a note of Mr.  6 Muldoe's son.  7 MR. RUSH:  8 Q Okay.  You're quite right.  You're quite right.  9 Who was it you were with again?  I had assumed it  10 was your son, but I may be wrong about that.  Who were  11 you at Deadhorse with?  12 A Vincent.  13 Q Vincent?  14 A Vincent Muldoe.  15 Q And who is he?  16 A He is my grandson.  17 Q Just help me a little bit with this, Mr. Muldoe.  I'm  18 a little -- I'm a little confused about this because  19 your grandson is quite young, isn't he?  You told us  20 earlier he's 18?  21 A Yeah.  22 Q Now, if he was 18, he probably wasn't there with you  23 in 1953?  24 A No, but I thought you was asking me when I was there  25 with my -- last with the grandson.  26 Q Okay.  Well, when were you last there with your  27 grandson?  Perhaps I should ask it that way.  At  28 Deadhorse?  29 A Deadhorse.  In '66 I think.  '86.  30 Q Okay.  31 A I'm going back too far.  32 Q And at Deep Canoe?  When were you last at Deep Canoe?  33 A That was about in 1940, I think.  34 Q Okay.  And then you said you were there in '53?  35 A We were passing through there in '53, yes, '63.  36 Q '53 or '63?  37 A Yeah.  38 Q And who were you with then?  39 A I was with Kenny.  4 0 Q And Kenny is?  41 A Muldoe.  42 Q He is your son?  43 A My son.  44 Q Right.  45 A And George Muldoe and Lloyd Muldoe and one of my  46 brother-in-law.  47 Q Who was -- which brother-in-law was that? 6187  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   Dennis.  2 Q   Okay.  Now, I'm just talking about Deep Canoe.  I  3 think you mentioned --  4 A   Beyond that.  5 Q   Yes, beyond that.  6 A   Yeah.  7 Q   I'm going to come to that in just a second.  The -- at  8 Deep Canoe you mentioned that Eric McPherson has a  9 cabin there?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Do other members of your house also trap or hunt in  12 the Deep Canoe area today?  13 A  Well, the only one that's in there right now is Eric.  14 Q   Okay.  15 A   He goes in there just about every winter.  And also  16 one -- one of my other granddaughters, Beverly  17 Anderson, they go up there once in a while.  Every now  18 and then they do a little fishing around there, around  19 Deadhorse Lake.  20 Q   Okay.  Now, in 1953 or '63, when you said that you  21 passed by there --  22 A   Yeah.  23 Q   -- with Kenny and some of your other sons, where did  24 you go on that occasion?  25 A  We went right up to as far as Willow Flat and  26 Driftwood, Xsi mahla gantx.  27 Q   I think we gave that to you yesterday, my lord.  2 8 And where did you start out from?  29 A  We start out from Kispiox.  30 Q   Was that -- did you walk the way -- the whole way?  31 A  We only went partway, as far as about first cabin, to  32 the place they call Wii Xsan eekw.  It's a big coho  33 creek.  34 Q   That's 1448.  35 A  We walked from there in.  36 Q   Okay.  And from Xsan eekw to Driftwood Creek --  37 A   Right, yeah.  38 Q   -- how long did it take you to get there?  39 A   It take us about two days.  40 Q   Did you -- did you pass by Old Kuldo --  41 A   Yeah.  42 Q   — or New Kuldo.  43 You passed by both of them?  44 A   Yeah.  45 Q   Now, have other -- since 1953 or '63, Mr. Muldoe, have  46 there been other members of your house or other people  47 with your authority, with your permission go up to Old 61?  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Kuldo and up to Driftwood or Shaladamus?  2 A   No, there is no others that goes up there.  3 Q   Do you know if anyone was into Old Kuldo in the '70's  4 or '80's?  5 A   '73.  I don't remember when it is.  I don't remember  6 it.  7 Q   Okay.  I just wanted to ask you:  Albert Tait, before  8 Albert Tait passed on do you know if Albert was in --  9 A   Yeah.  10 Q   — into Old Kuldo?  11 A   It was I think May, and all of us went in there  12 before -- before '40 I think.  13 Q   And what about after that?  Do you know if he went in?  14 A   I don't think.  He come along with us after -- after  15 that, but we were trapping beaver along the Cullon  16 Creek.  But I don't remember just what year it was.  17 Q   Now, at Deadhorse -- I'm just going to ask you to go  18 now to the southern part of the territory --  19 A   Yeah.  20 Q   -- at Deadhorse Creek.  You indicated you were last  21 there in 1986?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   You also referred to a place called Burnt Hill?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   When were you last at Burnt Hill?  26 A  Well, I go in in '86, but I also go and drive right in  27 into '87 too.  28 Q   Okay.  29 A   I drive in and check over it, whatever, or hunt in  30 there.  31 Q   Were you hunting moose on that occasion?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Were you with anybody from your family?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Who were you with?  36 A   I was always with Vincent Muldoe.  37 Q   Okay.  Have you been trapping this year at Burnt  38 Creek, or at Burnt Hill rather, or at Deadhorse Lake?  39 A   Not — not in the '70 — not in '87.  40 Q   '88?  41 A   Not in '88.  But Vincent was trapping in there in '87  42 and '88.  43 Q   And are you intending to go out to either Gitludahl's  44 territory or to Deadhorse or Wiigyet's territory to  45 trap later this year or hunt?  46 A  Well, I'll be going out towards Deadhorse sometimes,  47 just whenever I have a chance.  But right now you 6189  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  MR.  RUSH:  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  RUSH:  21  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  RUSH:  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  47  can't get in there.  The road is still too soft to get  in there.  You said that you went in I think to -- in 1987 to  look it over.  You used the word to go in to Burnt  Hill, I think it was, to look it over?  Um hum.  Is there a Gitksan word meaning to look it over or  to -- to survey?  Well, a Gitksan word.  You can either use A'gye'la.  A'gye'la?  A'gye'la.  It's just to look it over.  And when you're looking it over, what does that mean?  That's when you have to -- well, it's looking it over  to see if there's anything goes on in there or  anything like that or anybody that goes in there.  If  there happen to be anybody in there, you have to get  them out of there.  Okay.  A'gye'la, my lord, is A-'-g-y-e-'-1-a.  :  That means a look over?  Just to look over, yes, in the context in which Mr.  Muldoe described it.  :  Yes.  Mr. Muldoe, do you enjoy being out on your  territories?  Do you enjoy being out on your  territories?  Oh, yes.  What do you like about it?  Lots of fresh air.  Well, every time, whenever I go  out in our territory, it's mostly just to look it over  and check it over, if anything goes on in there, then  come out again.  But anyway, that's all my life I like  the bush.  I like camping out.  I like trapping.  I  like hunting.  And also I like fishing too.  Okay.  Now, did -- was there something that happened  at Gwinageese Lake at the cabin last year that --  Yeah.  -- that was a concern to you?  Yes.  What happened there?  Like towards -- it's about the last week of October  when we went out to take our supplies out with a  pick-up and a 4-by-4, and we -- I believe we had about  two -- two pick-up, one of Earl's and one of mine, one  of my sons.  And we take enough supplies out there to  last for -- for the whole winter.  And also we take  other things, some bait and stuff like that. 6190  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Sometimes you can't get the bait too handy, so we have  2 to take them out.  And we -- a lot of things that we  3 have in there.  Then we stay there till about the  4 first week of November.  That's when we -- that's when  5 we usually start trapping, but we just set a few traps  6 around the cabin, and we went back to the village for  7 about a week before we come back again.  8 Q   Did something happen to the cabin when you were out  9 when you came back?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   What happened to the cabin?  12 A   Like when we come back within about a week, well,  13 someone was enter the cabin there by going through the  14 window.  Somehow they opened the window.  And they --  15 they took one of my sleeping bag.  What it cost me  16 about $150, and I only use it about a couple of night.  17 And they took the reels out of the fishing rods.  And  18 they also -- they took our area map like we got here.  19 It's marked all different area on the trapline,  20 whatever these goes.  They take them out too.  21 Q   Did you ever find those things again?  22 A   Never did find them.  23 Q   Now, Mr. Muldoe, I'd like to ask you about another  24 subject.  I want to ask you about fishing sites on the  25 Skeena River.  26 A   Oh, yeah.  27 Q   And do you know some of the fishing sites on the  28 Skeena River, Mr. Muldoe?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And you've fished along the Skeena River --  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   -- where these sites are?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   I want to ask you about these.  I'm going to ask Mr.  35 Muldoe to refer to certain sites, my lord, and he'll  36 describe where they are and the names of the sites.  37 Now, Mr. Muldoe, I'd like you to start at the  38 junction of the Kispiox and the Skeena Rivers.  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And can you tell his lordship how -- how you will  41 describe which side of the river it's on?  How do you  42 determine which side of the river it's on?  43 A  Well, I can describe them as you are looking down the  44 stream.  When you're looking downstream, it will be on  45 the left side.  If you're looking on the right-hand  46 side as you're looking down, it will be on the right  47 side. 6191  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   I'd like you to, if you will, to start at the junction  2 of the Kispiox and the Skeena River.  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   Okay.  Now, just a moment, Mr. Muldoe.  5 A   Like by looking down on the left side, it will be on  6 the east side, and if you're looking down on the right  7 side, it will be on the west side of the Skeena River.  8 Q   Yes.  If you'll just pause for one moment, please.  9 Now, is there a fishing site on the Skeena River right  10 where the Skeena meets the Kispiox or the Kispiox  11 meets the Skeena?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Okay.  What's the one -- the first one that you know  14 of there?  What's the first fishing site that you know  15 at the junction of the Kispiox and the Skeena?  16 A  Well, the first fishing site will be across from the  17 Kispiox junction on the Skeena.  That's on the  18 left-hand side, okay, looking down.  19 Q   Correct.  20 A  And the name of that place by Indian, they call that  21 Uxs ts'agit.  And that belongs to Delgamuukw.  22 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  If you'll just pause there.  23 THE TRANSLATOR:  1491.  24 MR. RUSH:  Excuse me.  25 THE TRANSLATOR:  1491.  2 6 MR. RUSH:  27 Q   Thank you.  And what does Uxs ts'agit mean when it's  28 translated to English?  29 A   It's a point.  That's where the Skeena comes right  30 around in a point, just point right out.  31 Q   All right.  And is there or are there other sites  32 located close to the junction of the Skeena?  33 A   On the right-hand side there's a -- the one -- the  34 first lower one is number one.  It's the one they call  35 Xsaxwhl gwanks.  36 THE TRANSLATOR:  That's 1490.  37 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  38 THE COURT:  On which side of the river?  39 THE WITNESS:  It's the little spring in there, and it's the  40 mouth of the little spring they call Xsaxwhl gwanks.  41 THE COURT:  On which side of the Skeena, please?  42 THE WITNESS:  On the right-hand side —  4 3 THE COURT:  Thank you.  44 THE WITNESS:  — of the Skeena.  4 5 MR. RUSH:  46 Q   And is that below or above the junction with the  47 Kispiox? 6192  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  Below the junction.  And who is it that owns that site?  It's owned by Haakw, the former Haakw before the last  one.  It's been passed on from generation to  generation.  And it's given to Gertie Morrison.  That's 27, my lord, Haakw.  Is there another site that is close to that one?  Yes, on the right next one -- they are all very close  together, not more than about 60 feet apart or  Q  A  something like that,  have it on there, but  goohl mal.  What is the --  Wii nii goohl mal.  It's -- and I believe you didn't  it's the place they call Wii nii  THE  MR.  THE  THE  THE  MR.  TRANSLATOR:  1492.  RUSH:  Q   And do you know the meaning of Wii nii goohl mal?  A   Yes, it's a place where they -- they have -- I don't  know why they have the canoe there, but they have the  canoe up on top -- up on top of the place.  Probably  somebody might have been upset a good many years ago,  so they left that canoe up there.  And the canoe was  rotten when I seen it.  Q   And that's how it took its name, is it?  A   Yes, that's how it got its name Wii nii goohl mal.  COURT:  What does the name mean?  What is the definition of  the word?  Canoe on top?  WITNESS:  Where the -- where the canoe is.  is anchored.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Where the canoe  THE  MR.  COURT:  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  COURT:  RUSH:  Q  A  Okay.  And, Mr. Muldoe, who owns that site?  It belongs to Delgamuukw.  Okay.  And is that below the junction and on the right  side --  Yes.  -- as you go down?  Yes.  And it's close to the previous one that you mentioned,  Xsaxwhl gwanks?  Yes.  He said it was 60 feet away.  Now, is there another site in that location?  Well, the next one right -- the next one right almost  side by side, about 30 feet apart, I believe they call  Gwin oop.  That's the one that you might see it on the 6193  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 map.  2 THE TRANSLATOR:  1493.  3 MR. RUSH:  1493.  4 THE COURT:  Still on the right side?  5 THE WITNESS:  On the right-hand side of the river.  6 MR. RUSH:  7 Q   Who owns that site?  8 A   Owned by Lax Gibuu tribe, Wii mugulsxw.  9 Q   That's 78, my lord.  Is there anything located at that  10 site, any structure?  11 A   Yes, they built smokehouse in there.  12 Q   And what species of fish is fished at these sites?  13 A  Well, they get anything from pink salmon, sockeye,  14 coho, steelheads, all different species of salmon.  15 Q   Now, if you go above the junction of the Kispiox and  16 the Skeena River, what's the site that is first north  17 of that junction on the Skeena?  18 A   On the left-hand side as you -- downstream the next  19 one is -- the first one is -- one site is Xsu Gwin  20 Ya'a.  It's below the Salmon River.  And the second  21 one right just above the creek.  22 Q   Okay.  That's 1494, my lord.  There's one site below  23 the Salmon River?  24 A   One below the Salmon River, yes.  25 Q   And where is the other one?  26 A   The other one is just above the Xsu Gwin Ya'a, Salmon  27 River.  28 Q   Is there any smokehouse located at that location?  29 A   They used to have a smokehouse in earlier days.  They  30 used to have a smokehouse just above the Xsu Gwin Ya'a  31 close to the Skeena River.  32 Q   Who owns those fishing sites?  33 A   It's owned by Gitludahl.  34 Q   And are all the species of salmon fished there?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Now, going north or on the left side, Mr. Muldoe, is  37 there a site above the Xsu Gwin Ya'a?  What's the next  38 site above the ones owned by Gitludahl at the Salmon  39 River?  40 A   On the same side of the river, on the left-hand side  41 just above Xsu Gwin Ya'a it's what you call An  42 Legansxw.  43 Q   That's at 1495.  What does that mean when translated  44 or —  45 A   It's the meaning --  46 Q   -- interpreted?  47 A   -- explained in the early days where their -- in the 6194  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 early days, it might be a few thousand years back.  2 That's where the people of Kispiox shoot down their  3 wood and where they roll down the wood, in other  4 words.  5 THE COURT:  People do what to their wood, please?  6 THE WITNESS:  On the left-hand side of the river.  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  What is the word?  8 THE INTERPRETER:  Rolled, rolled down their wood.  9 THE COURT:  Rolled?  10 THE INTERPRETER:  R-o-l-l-e-d.  11 THE COURT:  Rolled.  Thank you.  12 MR. RUSH:  13 Q   And who owns that site?  14 A   It owned by Gitludahl.  15 Q   Now, what's the next site from there, Mr. Muldoe?  16 A  Well, the next site above that is the one they call  17 Xsaxwhl gu gwi Ts'ak?  It's on the left-hand side of  18 the Skeena.  It's about a quarter of a mile above that  19 one.  20 THE TRANSLATOR:  1497.  21 MR. RUSH:  22 Q   Thank you.  Is that on the same side as An Legansxw?  23 A   Yeah.  24 Q   On the left side as you're going down?  25 A   Yes, on the east side of the Skeena River.  26 Q   All right.  And whose sight is that?  27 A   That's Gitludahl.  28 Q   What is taken there?  29 A   It's take all different species of salmon.  30 Q   Okay.  Now, what's the next site?  31 A   Right -- the very next one in the same part of the  32 area they call Gwin Wijix.  That's for the spring  33 salmon fishing.  34 Q   And Gwin Wijix is 1498.  35 A   It's only about a hundred feet above that.  36 Q   Are there two or more sites at Gwin Wijix?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   How many sites are there?  39 A  Well, one Xsaxwhl gu gwi Ts'ak, and one is Gwin Wijix  40 Q   1497 and then he said 1498.  And just referring to  41 Gwin Wijix, what does that mean in English, Mr.  42 Muldoe?  43 A   It's -- it means -- Gwin Wijix means caribou or  44 caribou close by or something like that.  45 Q   And that site is owned by whom?  46 A   Gitludahl.  47 Q   And what's the next site in line there? 6195  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  A  Well, you can go down below that again, and on the  right-hand side of the Skeena River it's a place they  call Lax gu Gawsuxw.  TRANSLATOR:  1496.  RUSH:  Thank you.  COURT:  Now, when you say below, do you mean below the  junction --  THE  MR.  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  RUSH:  Q  Yeah.  -- or below the ones you just mentioned?  Just down below Gwin Wijix on the right-hand side.  Below the junction of the two rivers?  No, it's above the junction, way up above.  Below 1498 but on the other side of the river?  That's right.  Now, this is on the right side as you're going  down?  A   Yeah, over on the right side as you go down.  It's  right across from Xsu Gwin Ya'a.  Right across from  Salmon River in other words.  Q   Yes.  And -- thank you.  And who owns that site?  A   It belongs to Gitludahl.  Q   And are there two or more sites at that place?  A   Yes, there's another one just above there about  another 150 feet, and it's called the same thing.  But  they both belong to Gitludahl.  Q   Okay.  And are there any structures there?  A   They used to have a smokehouse in there, but someone  burned it down.  Q   Just on that count, Mr. Muldoe, where do you smoke  your salmon today?  A  We have a little, small place right behind our house.  That's where we usually smoke a few fish in there.  Q   Okay.  A   That's on the Kispiox Reserve.  Q   Now, what's the next site above either --  A  Above.  Q   -- Lax Gu Gawsuxw?  A   Lax Gu Gawsuxw.  Q   Yes.  A   That's the one -- the next one is on the right-hand  side of the river behind a little island, but I don't  know the name of that one.  But it belongs to  Gwiiyeehl.  Q   That's 19 on the Plaintiffs' list.  About how far  above the Delgamuukw site at Lax gu Gawsuxw?  How far  is it? 6196  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  How far above Gwiiyeehl -- Gitludahl?  How far is it to Gwiiyeehl's site?  It's about a quarter mile, I believe.  How far?  Yeah, it's almost -- about a quarter of a mile.  It's  right across from the Xsaxwhl gu gwi Ts'ak.  Slightly  a little bit below it.  And across from Xsaxwhl gu gwi Ts'ak, 1497.  Now, that  site, you don't know the name of it?  No.  But it's owned by Gwiiyeehl?  Yes.  I'm awfully sorry, Mr. Rush, but did you say this  would be across from 1496?  7.  Across from the one he's describing now.  I've got 1496 and 1497 on the right-hand side.  That's right.  And he said this one was on the right-hand side.  I'm sorry.  1497 is on the left-hand side.  He said --  1496 is on the right-hand side, that's correct.  Mr. Muldoe said there were two sites here 150 feet  apart, the same name for each.  Are they on separate  sides of the river?  No, they're on the same side.  Well, he told me they were on the right-hand side.  That's correct.  All right.  Now, he said that this one, which  belongs to number 19, Gwiiyeehl --  Yes.  -- was also on the right-hand side, but I think your  question was they were on the opposite side of the  river.  I think you said it was on the left-hand side  river.  I'm not sure on which side of the  MR. RUSH:  of the  river.  Yes.  names,  COURT  RUSH:  THE COURT  There are two sites with very similar sounding  and 1496 is Lax gu Gawsuxw, where Mr. Muldoe  indicated there were two sites by the same name on the  right side owned by Gitludahl.  Yes.  And then his evidence, as I understood it, was that a  quarter mile, approximately, above that was the  Gwiiyeehl site on the right-hand side.  And also as I  understand his evidence, that site was across the  river from the site owned by Gitludahl, which was  Xsaxwhl gu gwi Ts'ak, which was 1497.  All right.  I don't think, with the greatest of 6197  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 respect, that's what he said.  I'm happy to have it  2 either way.  3 MR. RUSH:  Oh, okay.  4 THE COURT:  Perhaps you can ask him on what side of the river is  5 this site that belongs to Gwiiyeehl.  6 MR. RUSH:  7 Q   Mr. Muldoe, help me understand.  The Gwiiyeehl site  8 that you've just referred to, which side of the river  9 is that on?  10 A   On the right-hand side.  It's on the west side.  11 Q   Yes.  All right.  Now, you indicated that it was  12 above --  13 A   Lax gu Gawsuxw.  14 Q   Now, that, my lord, is 1496.  How far was it above Lax  15 gu Gawsuxw?  16 A  About a quarter mile.  17 Q   Okay.  Now, on the left-hand side, across from the  18 Gwiiyeehl site, are there sites located over there on  19 the left-hand side?  20 A   On the left-hand side?  21 Q   Yes.  If you're at Gwiiyeehl's site and looking across  22 the river.  23 A   Yes, Xsaxwhl gu gwi Ts'ak is across from there.  24 Q   And that's the Gitludahl site, is it?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And that, my lord, is 1497.  27 A  And the one right across from Xsaxwhl gu gwi T'sak is  28 the one An uxs Mismatja, right across from Xsaxwhl gu  2 9 gwi Ts'ak.  30 Q   And is that separate from the Gwiiyeehl site?  31 A   That's another Gwiiyeehl site, yeah.  32 Q   And where is that, north or south of the one that you  33 didn't know the name for?  34 A   That's north from the one you just talking about now.  35 Q   Okay.  And what's that name again?  36 A  An uxs Mismatja.  37 Q   That's 1512, my lord.  And that site is owned by  38 Gwiiyeehl as well, right?  39 A   Yes.  40 MR. RUSH:  That's on the right side just above the Gwiiyeehl  41 site.  42 THE COURT:  Is it convenient to adjourn, Mr. Rush?  43 MR. RUSH:  Yes, my lord, I think it might be.  Thank you.  44 THE COURT:  All right.  Two o'clock then.  Thank you.  45 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until 2:00.  4 6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  47 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 619?  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 a true and accurate transcript of the  2 proceedings herein to the best of my  3 skill and ability.  4  5  6  7 Leanna Smith  8 Official Reporter  9 United Reporting Service Ltd.  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  4 6 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT)  47 6199  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE REGISTRAR:  Calling Delgamuukw vs. Her Majesty the Queen at  bar, my lord.  THE COURT:  Mr. Rush, please.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH, Continued:  Q   Mr. Muldoe, before the luncheon break you had referred  to the fishing site of An uxs Mismatja.  I am sure  Mrs. Sampson will help.  THE COURT:  That's what you say, Mr. Rush.  THE INTERPRETER:  An uxs Mismatja.  MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  Q   Now, is there a fishing site -- is there a fishing  site north of that site?  A   Yes.  An uxs Mismatja belongs to Gwiiyeehl.  Q   Yes.  And I think you said that was on the right-hand  side?  On the right-hand side of Skeena.  I am sorry, it belongs to whom?  Gwiiyeehl.  That was number 19.  19.  Thank you.  A  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Is there another fishing site above that, Mr. Muldoe?  Yes.  What's that one?  That's -- I think it's the one that is called An t'sim  wilp sahon.  An t'sim wilp sahon?  An t'sim wilp sahon.  Sahon.  THE TRANSLATOR:  That's 1513.  MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  Which side of the river is that on?  It's on the right-hand side of the river.  And who owns that site?  Gwiiyeehl.  And do you know what is fished at that site, what  species of salmon are fished there?  Anything right from the sockeye, spring salmon and  coho, steelhead.  All them.  Is there a site north of that, farther up the Skeena?  Farther up the Skeena up north of that is another one.  It's about either between a half mile and a quarter  mile.  It's another site on the right-hand side of the  river, Anxhl gii gaak.  THE TRANSLATOR:  That's 1514.  MR. RUSH:  Q   What does that mean in English?  Q  A  Q  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A 6200  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  It's a crow nesting, something like that.  Who owns that fishing site, Mr. Muldoe?  Delgamuukw.  And above that site --  Yes.  -- is there another site above that one?  On the left-hand side of the Skeena it will be on the  east side.  It belongs to Kliiyemlaxhaa.  Do you know the name of that site?  :  Has he not given us the name of that site at 1514?  No.  This is yet another site, my lord.  :  Oh.  This is farther north of that.  Yes.  He gave us  the —  :  Yes.  All right.  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  We are the next one above that one now.  That's the name I know because the site is T'a'ootsip.  What does T'a'ootsip mean?  This means a war hill.  And that's on the left side of the --  Skeena River, yeah.  Okay.  Is there a geographic point at --  Yes.  -- at the Skeena there?  Yeah.  What's there?  What is at the Skeena where that  fishing site is located?  A  Where it's located?  Q   Yes.  Is there --  A  Well, the fishing site is located right at the little  island, the one they call the war hill.  T'a'ootsip.  And they have a smokehouse along the shore on the  left-hand side just inside of that on the east side of  the Skeena.  Q   Okay.  COURT:  Is there a number for that site?  TRANSLATOR:  No.  But there the spelling is —  COURT:  I am sorry.  TRANSLATOR:  T-'-a-'-o-o-t-s-i-p.  COURT:  And does that mean war hill?  TRANSLATOR:  Uh-huh.  RUSH:  Yes.  COURT:  Thank you.  MACKENZIE:  I don't know whether that was the whole word as  my note is insufficient as they are for the Gitksan.  RUSH: 6201  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q Mr. Muldoe, the name of the site is that T'a'ootsip or  2 is there more to this than that?  What's the name of  3 Kliiyemlaxhaa's site where the island is located?  4 A They have a name for that where the smokehouse was,  5 but I don't remember the name on it.  But just the  6 place where the fishing site is one I remember they  7 call T'a'ootsip.  8 Q T'a'ootsip?  9 A Yeah.  10 Q Okay.  Now, are there other fishing sites located at  11 T'a'ootsip?  12 A It's one right across from there on the right-hand  13 side as you are going down the Skeena, it's on the  14 west side.  15 Q And is there a name for that site?  16 A They call it the same name.  17 Q T'a'ootsip?  18 A T'a'ootsip.  19 Q And the site that's on the right-hand side of the  20 Skeena as you go down?  21 A Yes.  22 Q Who owns that site?  23 A That belongs -- owned by Tsibassa's and Antgulilbix.  24 THE COURT:  The second name?  25 MR. RUSH: Antgulilbix, my lord.  That's number one.  2 6 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  I have it.  27 THE TRANSLATOR:  Antgulilbix, it's number one on the plaintiff  28 and Tsibassa's is number 66.  2 9 THE COURT:  Thank you.  3 0 MR. RUSH:  31 Q Now, is there another site north of the sites at  32 T'a'ootsip?  33 A Yes.  34 Q What's above that?  35 A Gwanks Sim Xsi Mihl Mihl.  36 THE TRANSLATOR:  That's 1517.  37 MR. RUSH: Thank you.  38 Q And what does that mean in English, Mr. Muldoe?  39 A It's a spring.  It's rather than call a sparkling  40 spring.  41 Q And who owns that site?  42 A Well, it's owned by Delgamuukw.  43 Q And how far above the T'a'ootsip site is this site  44 located?  45 A It's about a mile, I think.  I think it's about a  4 6 mi1e.  47 Q And which side of the river is it on? 6202  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  9  MR.  RUSH:  10  THE  TRANS  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  RUSH:  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  20  THE  INTER  21  MR.  RUSH:  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  It's on the right-hand side.  Now, is there a site above that one that's owned by  Delgamuukw?  Well, other fishing site above that belongs to  Delgamuukw is over at An ax biisxw.  An ax biisxw?  That's on the right-hand side of the river and also on  the left-hand side of the river.  Go ahead.  IATOR:  A-n space a-x underlined space b-i-i-s-x-w.  :  Okay.  And what does An ax biisxw mean?  What does that mean  when translated to English?  An ax biisxw?  Yes.  Oh, say like if somebody have been around then, An ax  biisxw, one would come to visit you.  Unexpected, I  think that's right.  URETER:  Yes.  Taken unaware.  And you say that's owned by Delgamuukw?  Yes.  And I think you said there is more than one site,  fishing site located there?  Yes.  That's about two fishing site on the right-hand  side of the river and two on the other side, one for  spring and the other is for sockeye like.  Is there a smokehouse there?  Yes.  It used to be a smokehouse in there.  And what's the -- how far above Gwanks Sim Xsi Mihl  Mihl?  That's about another mile or might be a little better.  Above it?  Yes.  Between mile and a half and a mile anyway.  Okay.  Now, is there a site above that one, the An ax  biisxw?  What's next site above that?  Do you want to talk about a smokehouse or anything?  All right.  Well, the place at the time they had the smokehouse in  there and they have a smokehouse up about half a mile  above this where the fishing site is they have a trail  cut up there and up on the level.  They have a  smokehouse up there and they have a little place where  they catch the dried fish.  They build a place off the  ground about eight feet off the ground where they  catch the fish for the winter.  And that's -- and 6203  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  A  13  THE  COURT  14  A  15  16  MR.  RUSH:  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  22  THE  COURT  23  A  24  THE  COURT  25  THE  TRANS  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  RUSH:  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  Q  that's the place that's been so many years ago by  Fritz Harris.  But now the government said that place  has never been surveyed and that place quite a  smokehouse that has been passed on generation to  generation right from I don't know how many hundred  years back.  And the farmers settled in there and he  took the smokehouse and they pushed it over the bank  and other things in there and mostly the farmers are  settled in there now.  The inside of that supposed to  be Indian reserve.  There is no smokehouse there today?  No.  :  How far north of Kispiox are we talking about now?  Oh, it's about four or five miles from the village.  Something like that anyway.  Would that be along the Skeena River?  Along the Skeena River, yes, on the right-hand side of  the Skeena River.  And the person that lives there  now, his name is Combs, but I don't know his first  name.  Neil might know it.  :  The name is again?  Combs.  :  C-o-m?  IATOR:  C-o-m-b-s.  :  Thank you.  That farm is owned by Combs?  Yes.  Now, Mr. Muldoe, is there a site above that?  Yes.  Above An ax biisxw, what's above that?  I don't remember the name of that, but it's one about  a mile above -- less than a mile above An ax biisxw.  Another one on the right-hand side as you go down.  Do you know who owned that, who owns that?  It's owned by Delgamuukw.  And that's on the right side as you're going down?  Yes.  Now, are there fishing sites above that one?  The next fishing site above that is on the left-hand  side as you are going down.  Yes.  But I don't remember the name of the place.  Used to  be fished by Peter Sexsmith and his wife.  But I think  the fishing site belong to Gisgaast clan.  Peter Sexsmith and his wife fished there? 6204  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   But it belongs to the Gisgaast clan?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   Do you know which house of the Gisgaast?  5 A   I think it belonged to Geel.  6 Q   And how far north of the site that you have just said  7 was owned by Delgamuukw is this site where Peter  8 Sexsmith fished located?  9 A   It's quite a way up I think.  Might be a few mile up.  10 Q   Now, is there a fishing site above that?  11 A   There is some other fishing site on the right-hand  12 side as you're going up, about three or four fishing  13 site along there, but I don't remember the name of  14 either one of them.  15 Q   Okay.  Now, Mr. Muldoe, are you familiar with the  16 place called Wauliip?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   Is there a fishing site located at Wauliip?  19 A   Yes.  There is a fishing site located at Wauliip and  20 also a smokehouse on there.  21 Q   And who owns that?  22 A   It's owned by Wolf Clan Wii Elaast.  23 Q   And how far up the river from the point where the  24 Peter Sexsmith -- where Peter Sexsmith fished, how far  25 along the river is that?  26 A   I believe it's about a couple of miles up.  Quite a  27 ways up on the right-hand side of the Skeena.  28 Q   Thank you.  Mr. Muldoe, yesterday you told us about a  29 fishing site at Kuldo that you knew about?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And I wanted to ask you if there was a fishing site  32 that was a little farther south of Kuldo that you were  33 aware of?  34 A   South?  35 Q   South of Kuldo on the Skeena.  36 A   Yes.  There is a fishing site -- the first thing I  37 know there is a fishing site at Xsi Agat.  38 Q   Yes.  Is there a fishing site -- is that in Wiigyet's  39 territory?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Approximately where is that located?  42 A   It's located about anywhere from one and a half or  43 between one and a half miles to two miles below Kuldo  44 River.  45 Q   Okay.  46 A   That's on the left-hand side of the Skeena River.  47 Q   All right.  Is there another fishing site below that 6205  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  THE  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  RUSH:  COURT  one that belongs to Wiigyet?  The other fishing site I know that it's up above that,  the one they called Milkst.  That's the one I was directing your attention to.  What does Milkst mean?  Crab apple, wild crab apple.  That's 1547.  Now, Mr. Muldoe, can you tell us about  where that fishing site is located, the Milkst?  It's located about few hundred yards from the mouth of  Kuldo Creek there.  Which side of the river?  On the right-hand side of the river, on the west side.  All right.  And why is it called Milkst?  Well, because they have -- they discovered a small  tree there with the crab apple on it, wild crab apple  and this is how they call it Milkst.  Okay.  I'd like you to look at the document book,  please.  I'd like you to turn to tab 17.  Now, this is  a photocopy of a photograph and you are shown holding  a blanket?  Yes.  And there is a crest on the blanket?  Yes.  What's the crest of?  The crest on both side of the grouse is that's the one  that's Milkst.  Okay.  And does that refer to the place on the Skeena  that you have mentioned?  Yes.  And what is it that's in the -- between the -- you  said that's a grouse, did you?  Yes.  What kind of grouse is that?  It's a -- it's an ordinary grouse, but a drummond  grouse, a night drummond grouse they call it.  Okay.  And whose crest is this?  It belongs to the family of Wiigyet and Waiget and all  them.  Wiiseeks.  May that be marked as an exhibit, please.  :  Yes.  REGISTRAR:  484, tab 17.  (EXHIBIT 484:  Tab 17, photograph of blanket)  MR.  RUSH:  Q  Okay.  Thank you very much.  Now, Mr. Muldoe, I'd like 6206  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  MR. RUSH  to now direct you to the affidavit that is located at  tab 6 of the document book, and if I can just take  that out.  And just showing you the affidavit at tab  6.  This is an affidavit of you, Pete Muldoe, and was  sworn by you on April 15, 1988?  Uh-huh.  Is that correct?  Yes.  Could that be marked as an exhibit,  All right,  please.  THE REGISTRAR:  485.  (EXHIBIT 485:  15, 1988)  Affidavit of Pete Muldoe sworn April  MR. RUSH:  Q   Now, Mr. Muldoe, I'd like to show you what's been  placed before his lordship and referred to you.  I'm  showing you a map, coloured map.  Was this -- was this  map drawn by Richard Overstall?  A   Yes.  Q   Did he draw this map on your instructions?  Did he  draw this map on your instructions?  A   Yes.  Q   Did you tell him where to place the lines and the  names on the map?  A   Yes.  Q   Okay.  And are the lines of the -- the lines  representing the territories on the map, are they a  reasonable approximation --  A   Yes.  Q   -- of the boundaries?  A   Yes.  Q   And did you supply the names to Mr. Richard Overstall  that are on this map?  A   Yes.  Q   And did you also indicate to him where on the map to  place the hunt -- the moose and trapping --  A   Yes.  Q   -- and goat hunting areas?  A   Yes.  MR. RUSH:   I am going to ask that this be marked the next  exhibit, my lord.  THE COURT:  All right.  That will be 486.  THE REGISTRAR:  486.  (EXHIBIT 486:  Map) 6207  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 MR. RUSH:  2 Q   Now, Mr. Muldoe, I'm going to direct you first to page  3 4 of the affidavit dealing with the territory of  4 Wiigyet and in paragraph 11 on page 4 it says that you  5 were instructed about the territory by Wiiseeks,  6 William Jackson; by Joe Starr who was Wiigyet; by  7 Nellie Williams who was Luusaiyeems Laaxs; and by  8 Waiget, Simon Morrison; and by Luus, Abel Tait; and by  9 Delgamuukw, Albert Tait.  Is that correct?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   And, Mr. Muldoe, did you hear described in the Feast  12 hall the boundaries of this territory as well?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Okay.  And this territory is owned by Wiigyet?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Now, I wonder if you would refer to the map and the  17 starting point referred to in paragraph 12 is Adeea,  18 Sam Green Creek?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   And Xsu Gwin Liginsxw, the Babine River?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And I wonder if you would describe from that point how  23 the boundary of Wiigyet in this territory goes?  24 A   It starts from here.  Xsi Agat.  It's about a mile or  25 a half mile below Kisgagas and right up north under it  2 6 reaches right up down to An dax aaws on that point  27 here.  28 Q   If you will just go slowly so we can get the names  29 that you are referring to.  An dax aaws is on the map,  3 0 my lord.  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  I see it.  32 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's 1401.  33 MR. RUSH:  Thank you very much.  34 Q   And from there, Mr. Muldoe?  35 A  And from An dax aaws right down to the Skeena and  36 right to the Xsi Agat.  37 Q   Does it go right to Xsi Agat?  38 A   Right to Xsi Agat.  It's around right in -- it's --  39 THE TRANSLATOR:  Xsi Agat is 1384.  4 0 MR. RUSH:  41 Q   What is Xsi Agat?  42 A   Xsi Agat is the mouth of the canyon.  43 Q   Okay.  Now, on the map it shows that it's not right  44 where the star is, but somewhat above that?  45 A   It's about a mile above Xsi Agat is where it is.  46 Approximately about a mile.  It's just not exactly.  47 Q   And then from there what is -- where does the boundary 620?  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 go?  2 A   From there it goes right up along the middle of the  3 Skeena on the west side and goes right up towards all  4 the way along up to the Skeena and goes right through  5 the New Kuldo and goes right up to Xsi Duutsxwit and  6 it goes right up to Baskyatsinhlikit and it runs right  7 up to the north side of Xsi Laadamus.  That's right up  8 to there.  9 Q   Okay.  Mr. Muldoe is pointing to the northeast corner  10 of the Wiigyet territory.  Now Xsi Laadamus is 1397  11 and Baskyatsinhlikit is 1487.  12 A   Yeah.  Baskyatsinhlikit is over here.  13 Q   Okay.  Now, when the boundary reaches the point that  14 you've described north of Xsi Laadamus, where does it  15 go from there?  16 A   It goes from there and it goes northwest like and it  17 goes right up to the Luu bagaiyt Xsiisigit.  18 Q   What is that, Luu bagaiyt Xsiisigit?  I am sorry.  19 A   It's the mountain.  20 Q   Okay.  21 A   It's the mountain there.  A lot of mountains there  22 with the peak all over.  That's the meaning of Luu  23 bagaiyt Xsiisigit.  Not in just one place, but it's  24 all over.  25 Q   That's 1403, my lord.  And from there where does the  26 boundary go?  27 A   From there it runs sort of a southeast, I think, I  28 believe it is.  It runs all the way behind Luu bagaiyt  29 Xsiisigit and runs right down to Xsan Luu Skeexs.  30 Q   Xsan Luu Skeexs?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Is 1399.  33 A  And it doesn't go all the way down to Kuldo Creek.  34 Then it cut across from there and it crosses over the  35 mountain along part of the Xsamaxhla Gantx and it goes  36 along up along the top of the Kuldo mountain.  What's  37 called Ansa Gan Tsap.  That's about two or three miles  38 from New Kuldo.  39 Q   That's number 1400 and reference was made to Xsamaxhla  40 Gantx which is 1395.  Yes.  And from there, Mr.  41 Muldoe?  42 A   From Ansa Gan Tsap it goes -- still goes southeast and  43 that runs into Xsi an Gaksda.  Run into the Kuldo  44 River.  It's approximately about three mile northwest  45 from the Skeena.  46 Q   And does it cross the Kuldo River?  47 A   Yes.  It crosses the Kuldo River at the point of the 6209  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 place they call Guiis Xsagan Gaksda.  It's a little  2 small Kuldo River.  3 Q   1398, my lord.  4 A   That runs about westerly about approximately maybe I  5 don't know, I guess how many mile that would be.  6 Q   And where does it run from there?  7 A   It runs up along the Xsagan Gaksda Creek and from  8 there it runs about southwest right up to I believe  9 it's -- it goes along the ridge along there and it  10 goes right along the ridge and goes so far, then it  11 runs into and it goes southeast to T'am Tsim ax.  12 Q   And T'am Tsim ax is?  13 A   T'am Tsim ax is up ahead of the Deep Canoe.  14 Q   And what's the other name for -- the Gitksan name for  15 Deep Canoe?  16 A   Xsu Wii Daxyan.  17 Q   That's 1386.  And when the boundary reaches T'am Tsim  18 ax, what happens?  19 A   It turns -- it turns sort of a southeast like and  20 follows down along the Xsu Wii Daxyan for about maybe  21 a little better than maybe a couple of mile down.  22 Q   And then which direction does it move in?  23 A   Then it leaves the Xsu Wii Daxyan and it goes all the  24 way alongside and heading towards south all along the  25 place it's called An will gaax.  26 Q   And which side of it does it go along?  27 A   It's on the east side of An will gaax.  28 Q   Okay.  29 A   It goes all the way down along -- the Cullon Creek is  30 on the east side of the boundary.  31 Q   And is the boundary to the west of Cullon Creek?  32 A   It goes right down to -- it goes right down to Wii  33 Gidii Sitax.  34 Q   And from there where does it go?  35 A  And from there it crosses the creek, the Cullon Creek  36 at Wii Gidii Sitax and goes south and goes right up  37 to -- it goes up so many miles and then it turns a  38 little and it goes right up the place they call  39 Gwitsoo, Lax Gwitsoo.  40 Q   That's 1404.  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And then where does it go?  43 A  And then it goes southeasterly, from there it cuts  44 into the Skeena River again.  45 Q   And from there?  46 A   From there it heads sort of a northwest to the mouth  47 of the Babine River, what they call Xsi git gwoimtxw. 6210  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 They have another name for that, too.  2 Q   And where does it go from there?  3 A   From there it head easterly to Xsi an dax de'et and  4 that's where we begin from.  5 Q   Okay.  The name that you gave for Xsi git gwoimtxw --  6 Xsi git gwoimtxw --  7 A   Xsi git gwoimtxw.  8 Q   What is that in English?  9 A   In English it means Babine River.  10 Q   And do you also know the Babine River by the name of  11 Xsu Gwin Liginsxw?  12 A   Yes.  Another name for that, but mostly they call it  13 Xsi git gwoimtxw.  14 Q   That's 1126, Xsu Gwin Liginsxw.  15 A   That's what the Gitksan people call the Babine people,  16 Git gwoimtxw, and the place where they live at the old  17 fort is early spring.  It's the first place always in  18 the early spring.  19 Q   Thank you.  The Wiigyet territory that you've  20 described, Mr. Muldoe, was that territory used by  21 different members of the house?  Did they have  22 different parts of the territory that they hunted or  23 trapped or travelled through?  24 A  Well, any place in that territory all that Wiigyet's  25 family go in there and all the children, all his  26 grandchildren, also can go in there and brother-in-law  27 or whoever, it's all connected with the family and  28 also Waiget's family can go in there also.  That's the  29 same way.  And son or anybody else and so is Waiget  30 that can go in there.  And now the family of Gitludahl  31 can go in there as well.  And the son, they have the  32 full rights to go in there as long as they live.  Any  33 of the whole family or their brother-in-law.  34 Q   On the map in Wiigyet's territory just south of An dax  35 aaws it indicates goat and groundhog?  36 A   Uh-huh.  37 Q   Was there goat and groundhog hunting in there?  38 A   Yes.  Right at the An dax house here and right at the  39 same place, part of the An dax house and down towards,  40 a little ways down towards the Sam Green Creek, I  41 forget the name there.  It's a place where they hunt  42 goat and groundhog.  43 Q   Have you been in there hunting goat or groundhog?  44 A   Yes.  I was up there hunting goat, but I didn't hunt  45 groundhog there.  46 Q   Okay.  And at the southern portion of the Wiigyet  47 territory at Lax Gwitsoo, it indicates marten and 6211  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 fisher.  It shows that they were located in that area  2 of the territory.  Did you trap for marten and fisher  3 in there?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Is there a trapping area of Wiigyet's in that area?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Now, on the westerly side there is in brackets here,  8 and I am just pointing to the words "moose."  Was that  9 a moose hunting area?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   And did you hunt moose in there?  12 A   I hunt moose along the Cullon Creek there in the lower  13 ground.  14 Q   Okay.  Now, —  15 A  And also some moose up just below the Kuldo River a  16 place they call Big Flat.  17 Q   Okay.  18 A   It's just down the same part of Milkst.  19 Q   Where Milkst is located?  20 A   Yeah.  Below that about a couple of miles.  21 Q   Okay.  Now, it shows up in the north part of the  22 territory where Kuldo is named on the map, it shows  23 goat and groundhog.  Do you see those words there?  24 A   Yeah.  25 Q   Yes.  And did you hunt goat and groundhog in that  26 area?  27 A  Well, I hunt the goat up there, but not the groundhog.  28 Q   Okay.  Is there groundhog up there, too?  2 9 A   But I hunt the groundhog above the Kuldo Creek above  30 the second cabin.  It's right above Milkst here, Kuldo  31 River.  32 Q   Tsi gwin Gaksda.  33 A   Yeah.  34 Q   Here is Tsi gwin Gaksda.  35 A   Yeah.  Up along here.  There is a goat up in here too  36 and also a groundhog.  37 Q   Mr. Muldoe just pointed to below that, my lord.  Now,  38 Mr. Muldoe, at the north end of the territory there is  39 an indication of moose at the top right-hand point of  40 the territory and then marten running along apparently  41 just to the west of the Skeena.  Did you hunt moose  42 where that's located?  43 A   Yes.  You can hunt moose right along the river.  44 Q   Okay.  And did you do that?  45 A  All the way along the Willow Flat.  46 Q   Did you also hunt marten where it's indicated there?  47 A   Yes. 6212  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  27  THE COURT  28  A  29  30  MR. RUSH:  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  THE COURT  36  37  38  39  MR. RUSH:  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  Now, I want to ask you about the Xsi Laadamus, Mr.  Muldoe.  It shows Gwiis Xsi Laadamus and just up the  river some distance, it looks to be about two miles or  so from the Skeena River, is a star.  Do you see it  located there?  Yes.  What's located at that point on the Xsi Laadamus?  It's way back in -- way back in the early days it's  when they have a trail going up there to -- trapping  trail.  It's way before Luus, the time, and way before  my time.  I wouldn't even know about it.  Before I was  born, I think.  That's when Luus was up there and his  father's point him to a spot where that little star  is.  That's where they have a person that used to own  the place there where he died.  So in the early days  they don't bury the people.  They just take them and  burn them up.  And what's remaining of those wood, oh,  say about three feet long and approximately maybe  about five inch diameter, they take all those -- they  take all this charcoal wood and they pile -- stand  them up like that and maybe six corners and that is a  good many years ago and I think it still remained  there when I was up there.  Did you see that?  I seen it.  He told me the name of the person, but I  don't remember.  :  Was it one person or a number of persons?  Well, in the early days mostly just burned anyone that  died.  They don't bury them.  His lordship, I think, was asking if there appeared to  be more than one person who was burned at that place  or were there many?  Only one person that was burned in that place.  :  I am sorry, but those two answers don't seem to me  to be saying the same thing.  One he said it was  anyone who died and another one he said there was only  one person.  Yes.  In the early days, Mr. Muldoe, you told us that there  was the practice of burning people who passed on?  Yes.  The place that you've shown us on the map where the --  where you saw the charred wood?  Yes.  Did it appear at that place that there was several  people who had been burned there or was there only one 6213  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  A  4  THE COURT  5  6  MR. RUSH:  7  THE COURT  8  MR. RUSH:  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  person who had been burned there?  Could you tell from  what you saw?  What I was told there was only one person in there.  :  What I am gathering from this is there is a common  practice but he has only seen one example.  There was in that place he had only seen --  :  Yes.  All right.  Now, you -- I just want to draw your attention, Mr.  Muldoe, to a small, dark triangle that appears to be  farther down Xsi Laadamus than the place where you've  indicated you saw the charred wood remains.  And what  is located at that place?  It's a little -- it's a small Xsi Laadamus they call  that place, a little bit farther away from the big  creek and that's where the cabin is.  Okay.  And did you use the cabin there?  Yes.  I used that cabin.  Now, you have made reference in your testimony to  Baskyatsinhlikit and it's indicated with a star on  the —  Yeah.  -- on the map.  What is -- what's located at  Baskyatsinhlikit?  Also -- just bring you back a little bit.  Also right  at the Xsimahla gantxw there is another cabin in  there.  Okay.  Xsimahla gantxw is Driftwood Creek?  Yes.  There is a flat located near the river there at  Driftwood Creek?  No.  Just above that is a flat there.  What do they call that flat?  Willow Flat.  They have an Indian name for it but I  don't remember it.  Okay.  Thank you.  Did you also use that cabin there  at Xsimahla gantxw?  Yeah.  I built that cabin.  You built it?  Yeah.  Could I ask you now about Baskyatsinhlikit?  Yes.  Okay.  What's located where the star is positioned on  this map?  It's a place where some of the Kuldo people, usually  quite a few of them usually goes up there like during  the summer and doing fishing run and it's a shallow 6214  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 place there and they used to blockade the Skeena by  2 putting the pile in stand like and braced them up to  3 hold up.  And every so far that I will have a space of  4 maybe three or four feet wide and that's where they  5 will set the fish trap in there.  Maybe four or five  6 fish trap all the way across.  That's people from the  7 Old Kuldo.  8 Q   Could you see where that fish trap was located in the  9 river?  10 A   They showed me the place, but there is nothing there  11 at the time when I first seen it.  12 Q   And is there an -- is there an adaawk that relates to  13 Baskyatsinhlikit?  14 A   Yes.  Well, the people -- while the people that live  15 in there and they were taken out the fish from the  16 trap and all of a sudden it's a little squirrel came  17 from the west side of the river and run across to the  18 east side of it.  So some of the people get sort of  19 superstitious about this sort of thing.  They say it  2 0              might be some of the other people might come and  21 declare war with us or something like that.  So they  22 just destroy the whole thing and they run away from  23 there and ever since there is nobody that lived in  24 there.  They went back to Kuldo.  So sinhlikit means  25 squirrel.  26 Q   Sinhlikit means squirrel?  27 A   Squirrel, yeah.  2 8 Q   And who told you about that adaawk?  29 A   It's been told by many different people.  It's told by  30 Luus and Wiiseeks and some other people that's been  31 living around there.  32 Q   Now, you'll notice, Mr. Muldoe, that below  33 Baskyatsinhlikit are the words Wii Skamal Gan?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And what's located at Wii Skamal Gan?  36 A  Wii Skamal Gan is right in the river, like when the  37 river is high in the spring and been a lot of drift  38 trees that will drift down along the river and it will  39 criss-cross right -- zig-zag right across the river  40 and when the river goes down it will remain there so  41 that timber still remain.  That's the meaning of Wii  42 Skamal Gan.  43 Q   Is it possible to cross the river at that point --  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   -- when the timbers are caught between?  46 A   It's right in the canyon.  You don't cross on that  47 timber, but it's just there.  It's a narrow place 6215  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 there.  Whenever a long timber tree comes down, it  2 gets stuck in there and broke the top off.  Just  3 remain right across the canyon.  It's sort of happens  4 every year, so they named the place like that.  5 Sometimes it will stay for two years and another time  6 when the river is high if the river doesn't reach it  7 will stay there for a few years.  Then it will break  8 through again.  9 Q   Now, you told us yesterday about Old Kuldo and there  10 was a -- the village name was Gowal mihl?  11 A Yes.  Gowal mihl.  12 Q And that's 107.  13 A Something.  14 Q It's 107.  You don't know it's 107.  We have —  15 A It's too far back.  16 Q Now, at Gowal mihl, Mr. Muldoe, you were about to tell  17 us yesterday there was a man-made canal there?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Have you seen this canal?  20 A   Yes.  21 THE COURT:  I am sorry, Mr. Rush, the man-made canal is where?  22 MR. RUSH:   At Old Kuldo.  23 THE COURT:  Oh.  Yes.  Thank you.  Perhaps, if you don't mind,  24 Mr. Rush, we will take the adjournment before I get to  25 hear about the canal.  26 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  27  2 8 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED PURSUANT TO AFTERNOON RECESS)  29  30  31 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  32 a true and accurate transcript of the  33 proceedings herein to the best of my  34 skill and ability.  35  36 Laara Yardley,  37 Official Reporter,  38 United Reporting Service Ltd.  39  40  41  42  43  44  4 5 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO THE AFTERNOON BREAK)  46  47    THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Ready to proceed, my lord. 6216  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  RUSH:  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  MR.  RUSH:  17  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  RUSH:  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  RUSH:  22  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  RUSH:  25  Q  26  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  THE  COURT  43  THE  WITNE  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  RUSH:  46  Q  47  Yes.  Mr. Rush.  You were going to tell us about the canal at Old  Kuldo, and can you just describe how long that canal  is, and can you tell us about it?  Well, it's -- that's a man-made canal.  It was a good  many thousand years ago.  It's not -- even Abel Tait,  who's quite old, and some of the other persons are  quite old, never even know when it was there.  This  happened quite a long time ago.  Could be couple  thousand years ago when it happened.  How long is the canal?  Approximately about three mile.  You've seen the canal, have you?  Yes.  My lord, I'm going to pass up another volume of  photographs, Volume 5.  :  Okay.  And I have a --  :  Thank you.  Now, if you'd direct Mr. Muldoe's attention to page  65.  Thank you.  :  Page 65.  Yes.  Just directing you to page 65, Mr. Muldoe, and  particularly the photograph that's in the top, the top  photograph of the two, can you recognize in that  photograph --  Yes.  -- what you've been talking about?  Yes.  What do you see in the photograph?  Well, I can see up here it's the Kuldo Mountain.  And  Xsi mahla gantxw runs down over this way a few miles  up, and then this runs up, which runs over along here.  And along here it's a man-made canal right from there  right into the village.  Okay.  Now, do you want to just show his lordship  where the man-made canal is?  Yes.  It runs right along -- right from the mountain,  bottom of this mountain, it runs along there.  :  And the village is at this bottom of the picture?  3S:  About three mile.  :  Thank you.  And I just want you to look at the photograph, the  bottom photograph.  Do you recognize the people in 6217  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 that photograph?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Who's the person in the middle?  4 A   It's the late Albert Tait.  5 Q   And who's the person on the left?  6 A  Walter Blackwater and his brother David.  7 Q   Okay.  Thank you.  Now, Mr. Muldoe, in your evidence  8 just before the break you made reference to Wii ska  9 mal gan?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   And I'm going to ask you to look at page 67 of the  12 photographs, and I'd ask you if you'd look at the  13 middle photograph there?  14 A   Um hum.  15 Q   Do you recognize --  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   -- anything in that photograph that you've talked  18 about in your evidence?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   What do you see there?  21 A   Right at the narrow spot here it's a place where they  22 call Wii ska mal gan.  23 Q   Is that the place where you have described the  24 timbers --  25 A   That's right.  26 Q   -- to have caught?  27 A   That's the place right in there.  It's what I  28 described where the timber always grows and then ends  29 up in there.  30 Q   Mr. Muldoe has pointed to the narrowest constricture  31 of that middle photograph on page 67 as being the  32 point where Wii ska mal gan is located.  33 Now, I'm going to ask you now to turn to page 68.  34 And in your evidence a moment ago, Mr. Muldoe, you  35 made reference to a trap at Baskyatsinhlikit.  I'd  36 like you to look at the photographs, the photographs  37 on page 68, and if you can tell us what you see in  38 those photographs.  Do you recognize the photographs?  39 A   Yes.  4 0 Q   And what do you see there?  41 A   I can point out where Baskyatsinhlikit is.  42 Q   Would you do that for us?  43 A   Yes.  As you can look at the place here in the Skeena,  44 you can see there is almost a sandbar.  It runs right  45 across.  It's a solid part of the Skeena River.  46 Q   Would you just show his lordship?  47 A   Yeah. 621?  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Would you show --  2 A   You can see it's sort of a dark spot.  It's a place  3 where -- it's a shallow all the way across the Skeena.  4 And that's where -- that's where they locate salmon in  5 there, and that's where they setting all the traps.  6 And this river could be changed because of the area.  7 This is narrow.  8 Q   Okay.  And Baskyatsinhlikit, what side of the Skeena  9 is it on?  10 A   It's on the left-hand side as you're going down.  It's  11 on the east side.  12 Q   Okay.  And you just pointed to a point?  13 A   Right in there.  14 Q   It's about —  15 A   This has all been growing up in there.  16 Q   He's pointing to the right side of the middle  17 photograph, my lord.  18 A   Yeah.  19 Q   Now, I just want to direct your attention here, Mr.  20 Muldoe.  The little star that shows where  21 Baskyatsinhlikit is on the west side, is that wrong?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   It should be on the east side?  24 A   Should be on the east side.  25 Q   But right at this same point?  26 A   Right at the same point, yes.  27 Q   Okay.  Now, do you see the same -- there's a slightly  28 different aerial perspective.  Do you see  29 Baskyatsinhlikit in the top photograph?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Okay.  Can you see the trap where that was?  32 A  Well, still you can see it from there, across there.  33 Q   Okay.  All right.  Show his lordship again.  34 A   Yeah.  35 Q   Please.  36 A   On the top area you can still see it where it's  37 shallow.  It's across here.  And just above this,  38 that's where the Xsi mahla gantxw runs in.  39 Q   And Xsi mahla gantxw is Driftwood Creek?  40 A   Driftwood Creek.  41 Q   Thank you.  42 A   You see the shallow part here.  43 Q   I'd just like to -- I'd like you to look at page 67.  44 If you look at the upper right-hand photograph, Mr.  45 Muldoe, do you recognize a place in there?  4 6 A   Yeah.  47 Q   What do you see in that photograph? 6219  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   Not this middle one, is it?  2 Q   I was showing you here.  Do you recognize that  3 photograph?  4 A   It looks like the Old Kuldo.  Is it?  5 Q   You're pointing to this area here?  6 A   Yeah.  7 Q   It looks like Old Kuldo, does it?  8 A   Yeah.  9 THE COURT:  By the top rapids?  10 MR. RUSH:  Yes, that's right.  He pointed to the area just in  11 the treed area --  12 THE WITNESS:  Yeah.  13 MR. RUSH:  — to the right of the clearing and to the left of  14 the top rapids.  15 THE COURT:  But not — the cleared area itself is not Old Kuldo,  16 or is it?  17 THE WITNESS:  Yes, it is.  18 THE COURT:  Thank you.  19 MR. RUSH:  20 Q   Now, Mr. Muldoe, on the map that you've identified  21 there is also the place on the map called New Kuldo?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   That's a village site?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And when you were at New Kuldo, there were -- there  26 were houses standing there at that time?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   That's where Abel Tait had his house?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And I think you identified for us yesterday a fishing  31 site there called An gyuuks?  32 A   Yes.  33 MR. RUSH:  Right.  34 THE COURT:  How do you spell An gyuuks, please?  35 MR. RUSH:  I think it's A-n-g —  36 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's 1390.  37 MR. RUSH:  1390.  Thank you.  3 8 THE COURT:  Thank you.  3 9 MR. RUSH:  40 Q   Now, my lord, I'd like to direct your attention to  41 page 61 of the photograph album.  42 I'm just showing you page 61.  Do you see on the  43 photograph, in the middle photograph, what you have  44 referred to as An gyuuks?  4 5 A  An gyuuks.  46 Q   An gyuuks.  I'm sorry.  Do you see it there?  47 A   Yes. 6220  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  A  Q  A  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  MR. RUSH:  Q  Could you show us where it's located, Mr. Muldoe?  There's -- all this part here they call An gyuuks.  Okay.  You're pointing.  Can you just put your finger  on it?  Right.  All -- all of this -- all this area here they  call An gyuuks.  That's the sandy beach area.  That's right.  He pointed to the other side as well,  the sandy beach area, and then to the other side as  well.  And also just up at this point here, that's where that  fishing site I've just been telling you about earlier  today.  Okay.  Now, are you -- I just ask you if you would  look for a moment at -- ask you to look at page 59.  And do you recognize -- do you recognize what is shown  in the top -- excuse me -- the middle and the lower  photographs?  Yeah.  What is that?  This is along the -- that's where they have the houses  in there from the New Kuldo and all along this area  and part of this one too.  Is that in the lower photograph?  Yeah.  Is that one of the houses?  That's one of the houses here.  In New Kuldo?  They have quite a few houses above.  A  Q  A  Q  Yes.  Now, my lord, Mr. Muldoe pointed to the area,  the cleared area but somewhat weeded area in the top  photograph, and then he moved his hand down into the  lower photograph where the gentleman is standing in  that middle photograph as being the place where the  houses were at New Kuldo.  And in this photograph I'm now showing you at page  60 -- can you identify the photographs at the top and  in the middle and the bottom as being places at New  Kuldo?  Yeah.  Can you just -- I ask you to look first at the top  photograph.  Is that at New Kuldo?  Yes.  And in the middle photograph you see where the  helicopter is located.  Is that also at -- 6221  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  MR.  RUSH:  10  11  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  RUSH:  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  RUSH:  16  Q  17  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  Q  44  45  46  47  A  Yeah.  Okay.  And I'm showing you the lower left photograph.  Does that show a place at New Kuldo?  It's part of a canyon, I think.  Okay.  Now, Mr. Muldoe, looking on page 61 in the  upper right-hand corner, does that photograph show New  Kuldo?  Yes, it looks like it's up in the New Kuldo.  Okay.  And Mr. Muldoe is pointing to the upper  left-hand side of the photograph above the water.  All  right.  :  Of which photograph, the top?  This is the upper photograph of the three on page 61.  :  That's New Kuldo?  That's New Kuldo.  Now, Mr. Muldoe, if you'll just put the map here  in front of you, I want to ask you is there any  logging north of New Kuldo in Wiigyet's territory?  No.  Okay.  And whose territory is it over to the west of  Wiigyet where Xsagan Gaksda is located?  In here where  Xsagan Gaksda is.  This is the west of -- the west of Xsagan Gaksda on  the north-west side.  It's -- I forgot the name of  that.  Okay.  Is there logging in there?  No.  Okay.  There's no logging at Xsagan Gaksda?  No.  Gyologyet's territory is there, I think.  Okay.  All right.  I think you've identified those  cabins for us.  I just would like you to look at the  map, which shows a dotted line, or a dashed line  really, from New Kuldo, and you see that it appears to  run down to Deep Canoe, Xsi wii Daxyan, and then to  run to Deadhorse and down to Wii Gidii Sitax.  Can  you -- do you know --  Yeah.  Is that -- what trail is that?  It's Telegraph Trail.  It's going right by -- it goes  right up -- right up and crosses at the Kuldo River  here right close to the Skeena.  Okay.  Now, the triangle that's on this map that's  filled in just to the left of Wii elaast's territory  there is -- I think you've identified that as the  point where Eric McPherson's cabin is located?  It's down below that. 6222  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  THE  COURT  6  MR.  RUSH:  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  RUSH:  9  10  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  RUSH:  13  THE  COURT  14  THE  WITNE  15  MR.  RUSH:  16  THE  WITNE  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  RUSH:  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  Oh, I'm sorry.  Yes.  Xsi wii Daxyan.  That's Eric's cabin?  Yes.  :  By the lake?  No, my lord, that was my mistake.  :  It's the cabin north of the lake?  No, it's the cabin that's on Deep Canoe Creek or Xsi  wii Daxyan, and you'll note that there are three  triangles, and it's the middle of the three.  :  I only see two.  There is one here.  :  Oh, yes.  I'm sorry.  I didn't see that.  3S:  One there.  This is the cabin here.  3S:  Another one there, and one here.  :  Yes.  Thank you.  Now, I wanted to ask you about the cabin that's  located above the one where Eric McPherson is.  Where  is the cabin that is located above Eric's cabin?  It's right on a little creek that runs down along  from -- that's not too far from where Eric's cabin is.  It's a little creek.  You can see it.  It runs right  by here.  A little lake up here.  It runs right -- it  runs up towards -- it runs kind of north-west.  And  that's the one they call Xsi win sta'muun.  And that's  where that -- just an overnight cabin is sitting in  there.  At Xsi win sta'muun?  Yes.  And that's 1387.  Now, Mr. Muldoe, has there been --  is there logging in Wiigyet's territory at the place  where Eric's cabin is located?  No.  Okay.  You said there is another cabin located at  Deadhorse Lake?  Yes.  And that is the most southerly of the three cabins?  Yeah.  And it's -- now, at that point is there -- has there  been logging up to that point?  Not yet.  Okay.  And is there any logging that has occurred to  the east of the -- of -- well, is there logging to the  east of Cullon Creek or east of this Deadhorse?  Yes, south-east, like all along the -- all up along 6223  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 this Cullon Creek here, and it goes up to about 7  2 Mile, I believe.  It's all -- all logged along there.  3 It's all cleared off right from there and right up  4 to -- pretty close to Burnt Hill.  5 Q   Okay.  6 A   No, it passes Burnt Hill now.  7 Q   Okay.  8 A  And it starts going towards Pope Mountain.  9 Q   Okay.  Now, the witness was basically indicating where  10 the words "marten" and "fisher" are on the map just  11 above Lax Gwitsoo in the southern portion of --  12 A   Yeah.  13 Q   -- of Wiigyet's territory.  14 Now, is there any logging at Wii Gidii Sitax in  15 the southwesterly portion of Wiigyet's territory?  16 A   I believe they get -- I haven't been up there lately,  17 but I believe they're getting pretty close to that  18 because they built the road right up from -- from the  19 first cabin all along the west side of Cullon Creek,  2 0 and they going up that way.  21 Q   Now, is there any logging north of Deep Canoe or west  22 of Deep Canoe?  23 A   No.  24 Q   And is there any logging north of the Skeena River and  25 south of Andax aaws?  2 6 A   No.  27 Q   Thank you.  Now, Mr. Muldoe, you said that you had  28 done some trapping and hunting around Burnt Hill?  2 9 A   Um hum.  30 Q   Has the -- has -- have you noticed the effect of the  31 logging on the -- your ability to trap or hunt in that  32 area?  33 A   Um hum.  34 Q   What's been the effect of the logging around Burnt  35 Hill?  36 A  Well, it's affected all the animals, like the fur-  37 bearing animals and the marten or fisher or anything  38 like that.  Martens, they all have their young ones in  39 March, or the fisher, and they have the young ones on  40 the trees.  And most of the area there on the south  41 side of that has all been logged off right up to the  42 first quarter, way up along the Telegraph Trail right  43 up to -- I don't know the name of the creeks there,  44 but they've gone right beyond that.  And in March,  45 that's when the marten have the young ones and so does  46 the fisher, and so -- and they even do in that time,  47 and the logger will just keep on stockpiling the log 6224  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 even if they shut down in February.  And it's right up  2 to May, and when it comes to May, some of the smaller  3 animal, they have the den into the ground or into a  4 tree.  And also that's affect -- affect the grouse  5 also.  But in a lot of the area where -- where this  6 not only affect fur-bearing animal, but they affect  7 the salmon as well in a lot of different places when  8 after the loggers cleared off.  9 Q   Are there spawning streams?  10 A   On the spawning streams, yeah.  11 Q   On the Skeena in Wiigyet's territory?  12 A  Along the Kispiox River and all along there.  13 Q   Are there spawning streams farther up the Skeena?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   How many trapping areas are there on Wiigyet's  16 territory altogether?  17 A  Well, right at the Deadhorse there we have about --  18 there's -- one runs from Deep Canoe, from Deadhorse  19 along the trail, Telegraph Trail, right up to second  20 cabin, and one just outside second cabin where that  21 one cabin I showed goes up the mountain for about  22 couple hours walk.  Then two branches off from north  23 side for Deep Canoe, goes behind the mountain.  One  24 goes up on top up along the creek.  But on the south  25 side -- on the south side of that Deep Canoe is -- one  26 runs up along the creek, and about three mile from  27 there one runs up from Deadhorse and goes towards Pope  28 Mountain or Staax K'aa'yit, whatever you like to call  29 it, and it goes down along the creek and -- on the  30 west side of the Cullon Creek.  And one goes along the  31 Telegraph right up -- down to the Burnt Hill.  And  32 from Deadhorse there's another one runs out from  33 there, and it runs southeasterly right up to the Pope  34 Mountain.  35 Q   I've counted about eight --  36 A   Yeah.  37 Q   — is that right?  38 Is there fishing in the lakes on Wiigyet's  39 territory?  40 A   Yes, there's fishing in all the real small lakes.  41 Like Deadhorse Lake, there is trout in there.  And the  42 next lake from that one they call Club Lake.  43 Q   Club -- Club lake did you say?  44 A   Yeah.  It's sort of -- I forgot.  Dam Aatsim dax wink  45 they call that lake right next to Deadhorse.  There's  46 trout in there also.  47 THE TRANSLATOR:  1381. 6225  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 MR. RUSH:  2 Q   Thank you.  3 A  And also there's another lake just about 20 minutes  4 farther down towards -- on the south -- south-west  5 side from the Deadhorse.  They call that lake -- it's  6 Wii Gidii Sitax -- Dam Guux Smeexsit.  They call it  7 Trout Lake.  8 Q   Are you calling -- is that Wii Gidii Sitax you've just  9 said?  10 A   No, Dam Guux Smeexsit, just above Wii Gidii Sitax.  11 THE TRANSLATOR:  That's 1379.  12 THE WITNESS:  It's about three or four miles from Wii Gidii  13 Sitax.  14 MR. RUSH:  15 Q   And Wii Gidii Sitax, that's a lake as well?  16 A   Pretty hard to say it on a map I guess.  Yes  17 Q   And Gidii Sitax is a lake as well, is it?  18 A   It's just sort of a little lake on a creek.  19 Q   Thank you.  Is there fishing there?  Is there fishing  20 at Gidii Sitax?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   Okay.  Mr. Muldoe, I'd like you to — I'll just set —  23 if you'll just take -- could you hold that for me,  24 please, the map.  I'll just set this aside.  I'd like  25 you now to refer to the Wiigyet territory that's  26 located in the upper right-hand portion of the map to  27 the east of Wiigyet that you've just described.  And  28 that is at Baskyatsinhlikit?  29 A   Baskyatsinhlikit.  30 Q   Yes.  And in your affidavit at paragraph 116 you have  31 said that you were instructed about this territory by  32 Joe Starr, Wiigyet; Albert Tait, Delgamuukw; Abel  33 Tait, Luus; is that correct?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And did they tell you this was the territory of  36 Wiigyet?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And have you heard this territory described in the  39 feast hall?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Okay.  Now, I just direct your attention to Sicintine,  42 where the Sicintine meets the Skeena River there.  43 A   Yeah.  44 Q   I wonder if you can just tell us how the territory  45 goes from that point?  46 A   It runs -- from Sicintine it runs sort of east, and it  47 runs all the way up towards the mountain they call 6226  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  THE COURT  47  MR. RUSH:  Gwin Wijix, and it joins right into Luus territory.  And it runs from there kind of south or southwesterly  towards the place they call Dam Similoo.  It goes by  there.  Then from there, Dam Similoo, right into the  Skeena.  You've mentioned Dam Similoo.  On the map it shows Dam  Similoo here.  I mean Dam Sgan Djexit.  Pardon me.  Just a moment, Mr. Muldoe.  It's 1485.  Smoke Lake.  Yes.  All right.  You were saying that it ran toward  Dam Sgan Djexit?  Yeah.  And then where it does it go?  Then from Dam Sgan Djexit it runs down to the -- right  down to the Skeena.  Okay.  Is there -- what does it -- what does it run  along here?  It runs straight down, and it runs into the place they  call Wii ska mal gan.  Okay.  And then from there up it goes back through Sicintine  River.  On the Skeena.  Now, Mr. Muldoe, have you -- have you  hunted on this territory?  Well, I hunt -- I hunt moose in there.  Okay.  And whereabouts did you -- did you hunt the  moose on that territory?  Just right at the place they call Baskyatsinhlikit.  And does the trail that -- there appears to be a  dashed line that runs parallel to the Skeena River.  Do you see the dashed line?  I'll just point it out.  There seems to be a dashed line here.  Oh, yeah.  And is that a trail at that point?  Yes, that's Telegraph Trail.  That goes all the way up  there and goes right over to Poison Mountain.  Poison Mountain.  Yes.  And that's shown at the top of the map --  Yes.  -- outside of Wiigyet's territory?  Yes.  All right.  Now, have you been along that trail?  I've been along that trail right up to Shaladamus.  :  I'm sorry, how far along?  Up to Shaladamus, my lord. 6227  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  THE  COUR1  2  3  MR.  RUSH  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  37  38  39  A  40  41  42  MR.  RUSH  43  THE  TRAN  44  MR.  RUSH  45  Q  46  47  A  :  Oh, yes.  Thank you.  Is this what they call the  columns overlying Telegraph?  Yes.  At this point, yes.  Mr. Muldoe, is there -- has there been any logging  in that area, any logging up there?  No.  There's no train service up there, is there?  No.  The Sky Train doesn't get there?  No.  Except for the submarine.  The seal travel by  submarine up to there.  All right.  Mr. Muldoe, below the Wiigyet territory is  a territory identified as Wii minoosik?  Yes.  And just before you go to that --  Yes.  -- in the affidavit at page 32 the territory is  described as Dam Sgan --  Dj exit.  -- Djexit.  Thank you.  And at paragraph 109 you say  that you were instructed about this territory by Abel  Tait, who was Luus; Albert Tait, who was Delgamuukw;  and is that correct?  Yes.  And did they tell you about the boundary of this  territory?  Yes, they tell me about the boundaries of the  territory.  But as we travel along, me and Abel Tait,  we travel along above.  That's where he have his  trapline.  We can see all this area down here.  And he  pointed out to me all this territory, who it belonged  to.  All right.  And Mr. Muldoe described the area of  travel through the Luus territory and pointed to  the -- to the boundary around the Wii minoosik  territory.  Where you travelled with Abel Tait, was it  up above?  Above this Dam Sgan Djexit.  I'd say about  approximately a mile and a half or so above it or  maybe two miles.  Quite a ways up.  I think you got a number for Dam Sgan Djexit.  LATOR:  1485.  And have you heard this territory described in the  feast hall as being owned by Wii minoosik?  Yeah. 622?  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Have you heard it described in the feast?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Okay.  Now, you see the -- where Xsi duutswit is  4 located on this map?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   That's a creek, it appears, that runs into the Skeena?  7 A   Yeah.  8 Q   And the boundary of the Wii minoosik territory appears  9 to start above Old Kuldo?  10 A   Yes.  It starts above the Old Kuldo.  It's  11 approximately about a mile.  12 Q   Can you--  13 A   Then from Xsi duutswit, which is approximately about  14 two miles, above Xsi duutswit.  I'll have to go close  15 by that.  We can't have a guess.  16 Q   Now, can you just describe how the boundary goes from  17 that point above Xsi duutswit or Old -- and Old Kuldo?  18 A   Yes, it starts from about two mile above Xsi duutswit  19 and approximately about a mile or so -- it might be  20 less -- above Old Kuldo, and it runs across towards  21 right, joined with the Luus territory, and it runs  22 just north I believe, yes, just about north from Dam  23 Sgan Djexit, and it runs northwesterly, then it turns  24 I believe it will be north-east from there, and it  25 runs down to Wii ska mal gan.  26 Q   You said north-east?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Wii ska mal gan appears -- it appears to the west of  2 9 Dam —  30 A   I mean west.  To the west, yes.  Yes, that's right, on  31 the west side.  But that's located on the east side of  32 the Skeena River.  33 Q   That's the territory is located?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And you've walked up along the west side of that  36 territory along the Telegraph Trail --  37 A   Um hum.  38 Q   -- on the west side of the Skeena?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Okay.  I think you indicated you went as far up to  41 Shaladamus.  Is this -- is this territory -- is it a  42 low territory or is it a high one?  43 A  A low.  It's always low along there, along the river.  44 Q   How is the territory used?  For what is it used?  45 A  Well, in the earlier days all the trappers that goes  46 up north, they use that place.  And during the time  47 while they still using the telegraph line they 6229  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  hankering to use that carry their supplies into  telegraph cabins and all that.  Has there been any logging on that territory?  No.  the  MR.  Q  A  Q  A  RUSH  Is there hunting on that territory?  Yes.  What's hunted there?  Well, it's mostly fur-bearing animal like marten,  fisher, and all the other things, fox.  And also moose  in the lower area.  All right.  And also bear, but we don't hunt bear.  You don't hunt bear?  No, not very much anyway.  Okay.  Perhaps that would be a convenient time to  break, my lord.  Yes.  That all right.  Thank you.  All right.  We'll  adjourn until ten o'clock tomorrow morning.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until 10:00  a. m.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:05)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  THE COURT  THE  Leanna Smith  Official Reporter  United Reporting Service Ltd.

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