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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-05-19] British Columbia. Supreme Court May 19, 1988

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 6297  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  VANCOUVER, B.C.  May 19, 198 8  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Calling Delgamuukw versus Her  Majesty the Queen, at bar.  I caution the witness and  the interpreter you're both still under oath.  THE COURT:  Mr. Rush, before you start, it seems to me as time  rushes past us so quickly that something fairly  certain has to be settled fairly soon about this view.  Is accommodation available in Smithers for an  overnight stay.  MR. RUSH:  I'm sure there is, my Lord.  THE COURT:  That's not a problem?  MR. RUSH:  I don't think so.  THE COURT:  Yes.  Well, that's the only thing that came to mind.  I have been able to confirm here that I made -- that I  can spring for one helicopter, but there's no  possibility under the Judges Act that I have access to  any better funding than that.  MR. RUSH:  Well, yes.  Your Lordship also made some requests of  the other parties here, and they were going to make  some investigations of their own, and I wonder if  they're in a position to advise your Lordship of their  position.  THE COURT:  Yes.  Well, before I hear from them I notice Mr.  Simons is here.  There's another matter that was on  the list.  (OTHER MATTERS SPOKEN TO)  THE COURT:  Sorry.  MR. RUSH:  Yes, I was just pointing out that my friends were  going to make some inquiries of their clients.  THE COURT:  Yes, Mr. Mackenzie.  MR. MACKENZIE:  My Lord, I think you asked me to determine  whether the Provincial Government had helicopters in  its fleet.  THE COURT:  Yes, or access to them.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Access to them, in the north, and my  instructions are that helicopters -- the force service  certainly does use helicopters extensively through the  fire season in the summer but that those are  contracted on a charter basis from time to time as  required, and other than that, my Lord, I've simply  looked at or had investigations made about costs of  helicopter chartering, and I understand Mr. Rush's  estimate was based on $570 an hour; is that correct? 629?  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 MR. RUSH:  That's right.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  And that seems to be the going rate up there.  I  3 understand it's $520 without fuel, but --  4 MR. RUSH:  I request we go with fuel, Mr. Mackenzie.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  Other than that — and as far as that's the only  6 things your Lordship specifically asked me to look  7 into, I don't have a response to Mr. Rush's general  8 comments and the discussions that we had about counsel  9 being present or not being present.  Until we get a  10 more definite proposal, my Lord, I will refrain from  11 commenting on that.  12 THE COURT:  Well, is it possible to decide whether we're going  13 to have a view or not?  If we are going to have a view  14 I am disposed to say the cost of the second helicopter  15 will be born one-third by each party.  Is there any  16 reason why I shouldn't make that order and put us all  17 out of our miserable state of uncertainty?  18 MR. RUSH:  I can't really see any reason why not.  It is upon  19 the lines.  2 0 THE COURT:  You sound more like Bobby Kennedy every day, Mr.  21 Rush.  22 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  My Lord, I don't have specific instructions or  24 agreeing or disagreeing with a view, but I can get  25 those, now that your Lordship has raised that specific  26 point, at the break.  27 THE COURT:  Or Monday will be fine.  Seems to me Monday is soon  28 enough.  If there's no problem about bread and board  29 in Smithers, Monday should be fine.  30 MR. RUSH:  I think it will be Tuesday, my Lord.  31 THE COURT:  Tuesday is probably right.  Miss Koenigsberg.  32 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Well, because one way or another the Federal  33 Government will be bearing the substantial and the  34 taxpayer will be bearing the substantial cost of the  35 total of this one way or another, I would have to say  36 that although if the court orders a view and counsel  37 are to participate, the one-third, one-third would --  38 and one-third would seem to be fair, and I have no  39 other submissions to make on that, but I would remain  40 somewhat concerned about the probative value versus  41 the overall cost of this to the matters in hand.  42 THE COURT:  Well, I've seen enough of northern British Columbia  43 to lead me to have some reservations about whether  44 it's necessary, but it seems to me in a matter of this  45 kind that if the plaintiffs say it's going to be  46 useful to see it, that I would not lightly second  47 guess counsel's decision in that regard.  If it was 6299  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. RUSH:  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MS.  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  the defence says that they thought that I should see  this and the plaintiffs said no, I still feel I ought  to err, if at all, on the side of caution and expose  myself to whatever advantages may arise from the  process.  So I'm not purporting to exercise a  considered judicial judgment in the question, I'm  merely saying that if there is any likelihood of  value, then I would say we should do it, and so on  that basis it seems to me that the sooner we come to a  firm decision and start thinking logistically, the  better off we will all be.  I'll leave it until  Tuesday, but I would like some firm positions to be  stated on Tuesday morning on this issue.  Just to advance that proposal, I will try to put  something together on the weekend to get the specifics  of the programme and to try to be as concrete as  possible about timing.  :  Thank you.  All right, Mr. Rush.  Now, there was one other issue that you raised  yesterday, and that was the question of counsel and  witness and support staff availability tomorrow  morning.  :  Oh, yes.  And I can advise your Lordship that if you can grant  our adjourning at twelve o'clock, that would give  those people who are intending to return to Hazelton  for the weekend time to reach their plane.  :  Yes.  And so with that in mind we're quite pleased to sit  tomorrow morning.  Mr. Mackenzie, Miss Koenigsberg.  Yes, my Lord.  We're in the court's hands on  THE  MS.  COURT:  MACKENZIE:  that.  KOENIGSBERG:  I have no difficulty with that either.  I  should advise your Lordship, and I have raised this  briefly with my friends, we all ran into problems,  logistical problems, in covering all these matters,  and this is a matter before Mr. Justice Meredith in  the Pasco action in Victoria on Tuesday, but which  unfortunately among our team I am the person who has  background to deal with that particular matter.  We've  been trying to gauge when it was likely that the  Federal Government would be cross-examining Mr.  Muldoe, and it's certainly possible that it would be  on -- arise sometime on Tuesday.  Now, Mr. Rush --  COURT:  I don't see how that's possible.  KOENIGSBERG:  I just would like to advise the court that I 6300  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  won't be here on Tuesday and would ask that the  matter, should a miracle occur and actually Mr.  Mackenzie finishes cross-examination before the end of  Tuesday, that we will need an adjournment until  Wednesday.  THE COURT:  We'll adjourn and wait for you.  THE REGISTRAR:  Excuse me, my Lord.  Then are we in fact sitting  tomorrow morning?  THE COURT: Yes. We'll sit from 10:00 until 12:00 tomorrow. I  would start early but I have a conference that I have  to make my cameo appearance there as well.  Thank you.  MR. RUSH:  Yes.  I wonder if, Madam Registrar, you can place the  map and the affidavit before Mr. Muldoe.  Thank you.  Mr. Muldoe, I'm going to place before you today the  copy of the map and the affidavit, and I'm going to  ask you, if you will, to direct your attention to the  Gwiiyeehl territory, which is located north and west  of Kliiyem laxhaa territory, and this, my Lord, is  located --  Yes.  I have it.  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  You have it?  It's at paragraph J, and it's on page  20.  Dealing with this territory, Mr. Muldoe, I want  to ask you if you were instructed about this territory  by Walter Skulsh, who was the former Gwiiyeehl?  Yes.  And also by Albert Tait?  Yes.  And Fritz Harris?  Yes.  And by Joe Starr?  Yes.  And did they tell you that this territory was owned by  the House of Gwiiyeehl?  Well, it was owned by the former Gwiiyeehl for a good  many years, and they're still using the same name  today.  That could be the Gwiiyeehl the same name a  couple of thousand years ago, but whenever one passed  on to the next family or take over the name and it  keeps on going like that right up to today.  And that territory is owned by the holder of the name  Gwiiyeehl?  Yes.  Okay.  And you've heard the territory talked about in  the feast hall?  Yes.  And you've heard it described in the feast hall? 6301  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  THE COURT  18  A  19  THE COURT  20  MR. RUSH:  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45  46  Q  47  A  Yes.  All right.  I would like you to look at the map, if  you will.  Just direct your attention, Mr. Muldoe, to  the place that you've identified on the map and which  is located on the Kispiox River as An giihla, An  giihla?  Yes.  And I wonder if you could just begin your description  of the Gwiiyeehl territory at that point.  Right down there An giihla comes into the same  boundary as Kliiyem laxhaa and joined right into it,  begins at An giihla, and it goes north right up to the  head of the Dam xsan seegit, what they call Murder  Creek.  It's a lake they call Murder Lake, and it  turns easterly then it goes northerly again right to  Carrigan Creek.  :  Oregon?  Carrigan Creek.  :  Carrigan, um-hum.  And then from Carrigan Creek?  Yes.  From Carrigan Creek it goes down to the -- to  the outside of the -- sort of north.  It goes west,  north-west, it goes into the place by they call Gwiis  xsan eekw.  Was that Gwiis xsan eekw?  That's 1449.  Yes, and from  there?  From there it runs down along the Gwiis xsan eekw and  it crosses the Xsi git gat gaitin, Cullon Creek, and  it runs on the east side of Dam xsi duutswit, and then  it goes slightly -- and it goes slightly west from  there again, and then it comes down to the Kispiox  River down to Xsi duutswit.  My Lord, Xsi git gat gaitin is 1451, and I think you  have already -- Dam xsi duutswit is 1445, and Xsi  duutswit is 1411.  Now, it joins the Kispiox there,  does it?  Yes.  All right.  And then where does it go?  It crosses the Kispiox River.  Yes?  And it goes up about a mile or so, and approximately  about a mile and a half, a mile, doesn't -- then it  goes south-westerly, and that runs right up to Wii lax  habasxw.  1098.  And then from Wii lax habasxw?  From Wii lax habasxw it goes south-easterly and it 6302  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 goes across -- crosses the Xsi tsihl hlu din.  That's  2 part of the McCully Creek, and it goes through the  3 Wisen gelt.  4 Q   1436.  Yes, and then where?  5 A   Then from Wisen gelt it turns from there and it goes  6 easterly, slightly north-easterly, and goes all the  7 way down to An giihla again into the Kispiox River.  8 Q   An giihla is 1424.  Now, just looking at the map in  9 front of you, Mr. Muldoe, you will notice that just  10 above An giihla is a small triangle, and you see there  11 it appears to be on the Kispiox?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And can you tell the court what was located there?  14 A   It's about a mile -- a mile, or might be better than a  15 mile, a mile and a half up above there there used to  16 be a cabin there.  That's the place they call the Frog  17 Creek, Xsa ganao.  18 Q   They call it Frog what?  19 A   Frog Creek.  20 Q   And what's the Gitksan name for it?  21 A   Xsa ganao.  22 MR. RUSH:  I believe that's 1446.  Am I right, Miss Howard?  23 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  2 4    MR. RUSH:  25 Q   Yes, okay.  That's 1446, thank you.  And that cabin  26 that you just mentioned now belonged to Samuel Wesley?  27 A   It's also the family of Gwiiyeehl.  28 Q   Okay.  Is that cabin, is that standing today, that?  2 9 A   No.  30 Q   Okay.  Now, I would like you just to proceed a little  31 farther north from the cabin you've been referring to,  32 and there's another there, another triangle that is?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And can you tell us what's located at that point?  35 A  Well, also there's a cabin in there too, but there's  36 three or four cabins in it because there's a lot of  37 families, all the families are staying in there.  38 Q   Okay.  And were those family members of the House of  39 Gwiiyeehl?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Okay.  Was there any fishing at that point, to your  42 knowledge?  43 A  Well, they usually do fishing in the Kispiox River,  44 yes.  45 Q   Okay.  And on the map you will see that if you just  46 turn it slightly on its side that there is indicated  47 beaver and moose along in that area? 6303  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And can you tell me if that indicates that those are  3 places where there is beaver hunting and moose  4 hunting?  5 A   Yes.  All this little lake and all this Cullon Creek  6 and all this creek around them, and also across on the  7 west side of the Kispiox River, there's quite a few  8 lakes in there and a Beaver dam, and creeks in there,  9 they all contain beavers in there.  10 Q   Okay.  Have you -- sorry, go ahead?  11 A  And also in the same place along those places there  12 would be moose and deer around there too, also.  13 Q   Okay.  Have you hunted in there yourself?  14 A   Yes.  I hunted in there.  15 Q   And what were you hunting for?  16 A   I was hunting in there for some beaver.  17 Q   Now, Mr. Muldoe, when you -- I think you referred to a  18 creek that I may have misheard you, two that sounded  19 very much alike.  There was a creek that I thought you  20 said Gwiis xsan eekw and there's also a creek that you  21 referred to as Wii xsan eekw.  Which creek were you  22 referring to, could you -- do you remember, what did  23 my ear hear?  24 A  Well, Gwiis xsan eekw is only about one --  25 approximately about one mile from the Kispiox River up  26 along the telegraph line.  Then from there it's about  27 another two miles or maybe a little better, and that's  28 where the Wii xsan eekw runs.  29 Q   And is Wii xsan eekw part of the boundary?  30 A   That's where the boundary is.  31 Q   All right.  That was 1448.  Now, is there a trail by  32 Wii xsan eekw?  33 A   It's a telegraph trail goes through.  34 Q   You've travelled along that trail?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And when you were hunting beaver in the territory who  37 were you with?  38 A   I was with Johnson Williams and also Jackie Williams.  39 Q   Are they members of the House of Gwiiyeehl?  40 A   Johnson Williams was brother-in-law of Gwiiyeehl and  41 Jackie Williams was grandson of Gwiiyeehl.  42 Q   Is there logging on Gwiiyeehl's territory?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   Can you say where that logging occurred?  45 A  Well, it's been logged on both sides and it's been  46 logged for quite a few years back.  4 7 Q   And you — 6304  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  A  9  10  MR. RUSH:  11  12  13  14  15  THE COURT  16  MR. RUSH:  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  I just can't recall when they started the logging in  there.  Okay.  And when you say "both sides", both sides of  what?  That's west side of Kispiox River and also on the east  side of the Kispiox River.  Okay.  And is there any farming done in that area?  It's on the west side of the Kispiox River.  There's  quite a few farmers right up to those lakes.  Okay, thank you.  I'm going to ask you now about the  territory at Waulp.  My Lord, that is located at page  10 of the affidavit, Waulp being spelled W-a-u-1-p,  beginning at paragraph 32 -- or 31, rather, and Waulp  is at 1414, if you need a name reference.  :  Thank you.  Mr. Muldoe, were you instructed about the territory at  Waulp?  Yes.  By Albert Tait?  Yes.  And by Steve Morrison?  Yes.  And by Abel Tait?  Yes.  And did they tell you the territory was owned by Wii  elaast?  Yes.  And I think you said that Wii elaast is Jimmy Angus,  Jr.?  Yes.  And have you heard this territory talked about in the  feast?  Yes.  And have you heard it described, its boundaries  described in the feast?  Yes.  And I wonder if you could just describe for his  Lordship what the boundary of the Waulp territory is?  Go ahead, Mr. Muldoe, if you could describe the  boundary, please?  Well, we'll start it down at about right at Waulp --  not right at Waulp, approximately down about a mile  down along the Skeena, that's on the west side of the  Skeena, and it runs up to about one or two mile up  towards Xsa ske'en.  I think they call it Love  Mountain. 6305  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  THE COURT  2  MR. RUSH:  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  A  :  Sorry.  What are you calling it?  What mountain?  Love Mountain.  Love Mountain?  Yeah.  A person named Bill Love and his father, they  have a farm right on the bottom of that, on the south  side of it, so they named that Love Mountain, and it's  from a place they call Spagaiyt axs.  It's almost  right on the ridge, between Skeena and the Kispiox  River.  They call -- the Indian call it Spagaiyt axs  because it's in between the two rivers.  1415.  Okay?  And it goes north for about approximately about  seven -- seven miles or so, then it turns  north-easterly and it runs into the -- a mud bank in  there, mud slide in there, and from that mud slide it  goes down in the middle of the Skeena River and right  down to Waulp again.  Okay.  And on the map it shows a small black triangle  north of the southern boundary.  What is located at  that point?  It's a smokehouse located in there.  Is there a cabin there as well?  Yes.  Is that a fishing site?  It's a fishing site, yes.  And what kind of fish are taken there; do you know?  Well, anything like from pinks, sockeye, spring  salmon.  They are all salmon that runs into the Skeena  River.  Okay.  Is there any trapping done in that territory  that you know of?  Well, when I first began to know the place it's the  former Wii elaast trap up there, and they usually stay  up there.  His name is William Dick.  He traps in  there, and in the fall or summer he goes up to put up  traps for them to use, and during the winter he goes  in there and traps there too.  And do you know what animals are in that territory?  It's anything right from weasel, marten, fish, fox.  Is there any large game?  Well, there's moose along there and the deer, and  bear.  And you mentioned that Steven Morrison told you about  the territory.  That's your brother-in-law?  Yes. 6306  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   And have you travelled in there with Steven?  2 A   Yes.  We went up there and I seen the place also.  3 When we went up we were right in where the cabin and  4 the smokehouse is.  5 Q   Is there a trail in through the territory?  6 A  Well, it's just a foot trail goes up there the time we  7 went up there, me and Steve.  8 Q   And has there been logging in there?  9 A   I think it's all -- I haven't been up there for over  10 15 years, so I believe it's all been logged.  11 Q   Is that a place where there is any farming?  12 A   No.  13 Q   All right, thank you.  Just to ask one or two further  14 questions about the Waulp territory, when were you in  15 the territory with Steve, Steve Morrison?  16 A   Could I have -- could you repeat that, please?  17 Q   Yes.  How long ago were you at the Waulp territory  18 with your brother-in-law, Steve?  19 A   It's while the former Gwiiyeehl was still alive.  20 That's quite a few years back, but I don't recall  21 exactly what year it was.  22 Q   Okay.  And that's when there was trapping?  23 A   No.  We just walked up there and just looked at the  24 place over.  25 Q   All right.  And what was the -- when you went in  26 there, at that time did it appear to you as though  27 there had been logging in there then?  28 A   That is before any logging was started when we went up  29 there.  30 Q   Okay.  Do you know when the logging began in that  31 area?  32 A   I think the logging began and then -- either in the  33 early 50's or late 50's somewhere.  34 Q   Okay, all right.  Mr. Muldoe, I want to ask you  35 another question now about Gitludahl's territory, if I  36 may.  I just want to ask you if you recall swearing an  37 affidavit which contained interrogatory answers.  Do  38 you remember swearing an affidavit which had answers  39 to interrogatory questions?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And do you recall that there was a map that was  42 attached to that affidavit?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And when you -- since you started to prepare to give  45 evidence, do you remember having a look at that map?  46 A   Yes.  I looked at that map at that time, but --  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  My Lord, I'm going to object to any evidence 6307  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 about that map or any reference to the  2 interrogatories.  3 THE COURT:  Why?  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  That map was done -- that map was given as a  5 direct -- as a direct answer to one of the  6 interrogatories and forms part of the interrogatories,  7 and that in my submission clearly is a subject matter  8 that can only be dealt with by the defendants, the  9 people who served the interrogatories, similar to the  10 answers.  Other answers to the interrogatories are  11 answers on examination for discovery.  12 THE COURT:  Are you saying that a mistake, for example, couldn't  13 be corrected in chief, that would have to be left as a  14 mistake unless there was cross-examination on it?  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my Lord.  Unless I raise it in  16 cross-examination the plaintiffs have nothing to do  17 with those interrogatories.  18 THE COURT:  That contravenes the rule against magic words,  19 doesn't it?  Surely if there's a mistake it can be  20 raised in chief for fear that it won't be raised in  21 cross-examination.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my Lord, the matter will never come before  23 the court unless I raise it in cross-examination, and  24 in that case it would be subject for re-examination.  25 THE COURT:  Well, I don't know — it's not before me now?  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, my Lord, because I haven't filed the  27 interrogatories or the map attached to the  28 interrogatories.  I haven't started my  29 cross-examination yet.  30 THE COURT:  It isn't filed in the court?  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, my Lord.  32 THE COURT:  All right.  Miss Koenigsberg?  33 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I've been trying to sort my way through that  34 one.  I think that Mr. Mackenzie is actually correct,  35 it isn't evidence before the court.  However, it does  36 occur to me that in chief one can correct an answer  37 given on a discovery, I've certainly seen it done  38 enough times, if it's solely for the purpose of  39 putting forward that evidence, but it would have to be  40 confined to correcting the mistake.  I can't think of  41 any reason in principal why you shouldn't be able to  42 correct a mistake that's been made, which although not  43 evidence before the court at that time, certainly can  44 be used to impeach a witness in cross-examination.  45 THE COURT:  I'm satisfied that it is competent for counsel in  46 Mr. Rush's position to ask the witness about a matter  47 of this kind, that is a statement made formerly in the 630?  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  MR.  RUSH:  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  21  THE  COURT  22  A  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  RUSH:  25  THE  COURT  26  27  MR.  RUSH:  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  RUSH:  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  RUSH:  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  course of these proceedings for any number of reasons,  not the least of which is that it -- even if it  doesn't arise in these proceedings it might be used  against the witness at some other time, and he should  have a chance of correcting it at an early  opportunity.  I think the matter can be opened on  examination in chief.  There are problems with leading  the questions, and I'm -- I think you have to be  careful, Mr. Rush, in how you approach the matter.  I  don't think you can, through this device, lead the  witness into a self-serving answer, but if it's in the  nature of correcting something or of clarifying  something, then I think if it's delicately approached  is permissible.  Thank you.  That is the nature of the evidence.  Now,  when you reviewed this map, this other map, Mr.  Muldoe, what did you notice?  When I reviewed the map that I had before, and I  didn't notice before until we --  :  I'm sorry?  Until I took a look at this map here --  :  I'm sorry.  Sorry, excuse me, just --  :  I noticed -- it sounded to me like "I noticed it had  a four".  No.  I think it was "I noticed it before".  :  Yes.  I don't know what he noticed.  Let's start again.  :  All right.  Just go a little more slowly Mr. Muldoe?  All right.  Now, when you reviewed the map, when you reviewed the  interrogatory map --  Yes.  What did you see there?  What I see in there, that they have Gitludahl  territory that runs over that.  Where did it run over to?  It runs over all the way up along the Luu andilgan.  Okay.  And was that right or wrong?  It was wrong.  Okay.  And what is the right boundary on --  The right boundary in there, it's right at the point  that they call Sgan aawsit, a sand bar. 6309  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  MR.  RUSH:  2  THE  COURT  3  4  5  6  MR.  RUSH:  7  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  RUSH:  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  Okay.  :  Now, I'm sorry, but I didn't get what the witness  said, that he said that it ran over to it and all  along something which was wrong.  I didn't get the  something.  I think he said it ran over to Luu andilgan, is what  I heard, and that -- it's 241.  :  All right, thank you.  And Mr. Muldoe, is the -- is the boundary which you've  described in your evidence and on this map the correct  boundary of Gitludahl's territory?  Yes.  Now, I want to ask you about the registered  trapline?  Yes.  I think you told us that you have a registered  trapline at Twin Lakes?  Yes.  Or Naa dax de'et?  Yes.  And you said that you -- I think you said that you  applied for that in 1956?  Yes.  Prior to 1956 were you registered on any government  trapline?  No.  And when you trapped before 1956 where did you trap?  I was trapping on Wiigyet's territory.  And after the -- after you were registered on the  Gitludahl territory where did you trap?  I trapped on Gitludahl's territory on the trapping  ground there.  And do you know who had the trapline registration at  Gitludahl's territory before you?  I believe the former Gitludahl had that registration,  but I don't know when he put -- applied for it or  anything like that.  Okay.  And the former Gitludahl is Moses Morrison?  Moses Morrison.  Who is entitled to trap on Gitludahl's territory  today?  Well who's entitled to trap in there, anyone of my  family.  Anyone in the family from Gitludahl's house  or anyone in the family from Wiigyet's house, or  they're entitled to trap in there, or Wii seeks'  house, they have rights to trap there, or anyone of my  children, they have the right to trap there, and also 6310  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 my grandchildren, or any other families,  2 grandchildren, they have the right to trap there, and  3 their brother-in-law, or so on like that.  4 Q   Okay.  Now, who has -- who has authority to make  5 decisions about the hunting and trapping at  6 Gitludahl's territory?  7 A  After Gitludahl passed on and the name is passed onto  8 me, and I have the full authority to look after the  9 place or to give permission to anyone that wanted to  10 go there.  11 Q   Okay.  Does that authority include making decisions  12 about trapping and hunting on the territory?  13 A   Yes.  It is -- this all includes the hunting, or  14 trapping, or fishing, whatever Gitludahl had rights to  15 give out.  It's my responsibility to do it.  16 Q   Okay.  And in terms of your responsibility, do you  17 take care to conserve the resources on the territory?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   What do you do?  20 A  Well, we -- trapping, if I give anyone permission or  21 they come to me and ask me if they want to go there, I  22 will be showing them where to go and where to trap or  23 where to hunt beaver or anything like that.  We don't  24 always go into the same place at the same year, we  25 always move onto different territories.  2 6 Q   Why do you move on like that?  27 A   Because we want to preserve some of the game so we  28 don't clean them right out once we get in there.  We  29 just have to preserve them so if the place is getting  30 low and different species of animal or marten or  31 beaver or anything like that, we go to another  32 territory.  33 Q   And is what you've said about moving from territory to  34 territory, does that apply to hunting as well?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And for meat, wild game that's taken off the territory  37 of Gitludahl's, how do you make use of that?  38 A  Well, anything like beaver meat we use some of it  39 ourselves, and some of them we can use in a feast, and  40 also like if some of the family, they might dry the  41 meat by smoke cured and put them in the freezer.  They  42 can also use that into the feast too.  43 Q   Do you use -- how do you use the moose meat?  You say  44 you've been moose hunting there too, yes?  45 A   That's what I just explained.  46 Q   Oh, okay.  That applies to moose as well, does it?  47 A   Yes. 6311  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Okay.  Now, do you make decisions about telling  2 certain members of the house to go to certain parts of  3 Gitludahl's territory?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Is there an example of that that you've done recently?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   What's that?  8 A  Well, like when I was up there I instruct the young  9 boys I was -- was with them, Kirby Muldoe and Vincent  10 Muldoe, I showed them where they can trap or where  11 they can hunt beaver if they want to, and also my  12 son-in-law, Victor Mowatt, he goes in there too to  13 trap, asks me if he can go in there.  It's when I  14 don't go in there they can go in there any time they  15 want to.  16 Q   How old is Victor Mowatt?  17 A   He's somewhere about 40, I think.  I'm not sure.  18 Q   And what age is Vincent?  19 A  Vincent is about 18.  2 0 Q   And Kirby?  21 A  And Kirby is also about 17 or 18.  22 Q   Now —  23 A  And also my other grandson, Irving Johnson, he's  24 beginning to go along with us now.  25 Q   How old is Irving?  26 A   He's about 14.  27 Q   Now, you've told us about some of the fishing sites of  28 Gitludahl?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Do you make decisions about who in the house will use  31 certain of the fishing sites?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Can you tell the court how you do that?  34 A   Yes.  Well, on the fishing site it actually goes about  35 the same way as goes through on the hunting ground or  36 trapping ground, and anyone of the family of  37 Gitludahl, Wii seeks, we get -- or anyone of the  38 brother-in-law or anyone of the family that can go in  39 there and share the fish, whatever they can get, and  4 0 whenever they have enough, well they can -- sometimes  41 they have to divide it amongst the people.  42 Q   Do they divide it among people in the house?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   Okay.  You said I think on the first day of your  45 evidence that at the feast where you took the name of  46 Gitludahl —  47 A   Yes. 6312  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   In December of 1985 some fishing sites were given to  2 certain members of the house for their use?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   Now, does that happen at every feast that Gitludahl  5 holds?  6 A  Well, whenever a person is passed on, that doesn't  7 happen at every feast.  If one person passes on then  8 they talk about his territory in the feast house, and  9 the same as the fishing sites and who's given to it,  10 like Gitludahl give me the authority to take over his  11 place after he passed on, and that's the way it goes  12 to every clan, not only one.  13 Q   Now, I think the other day you told us as well that  14 you were at Gwinageese this year?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   In January of 1988 with your son Ken and your son  17 Earl, I think?  18 A  And Lloyd.  19 Q   And Lloyd?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Now, does Delgamuukw, does he make decisions about how  22 to use Gwinageese?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And is there a way in which he as well decides who  25 will go to certain parts of the territory?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And are there different trapping areas for different  28 people in the house?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Okay.  And who are the people that are trapping on  31 Gwinageese with your -- with Delgamuukw?  32 A  Well, we -- well, if you ask us last winter, it begins  33 last fall in '77 and right — not '77 — '87 and '88,  34 we started in the fall and then we finish off in the  35 February, and when we travel on the place there,  36 that's -- you can see it for yourself.  We travelled  37 along with one of my sons, and he always comes out  38 with us and the wife goes along too, and you can see  39 it for yourself that I'm pretty well aged, and so  40 aged, so is my wife.  She's 75.  And Lloyd has gone  41 along with us and he's asked to come along to help us  42 right along.  We go along and there's three of us  43 going along one of the traplines, and we going in, but  44 Lloyd did most of the trapping, just we have a few  45 traps in between.  46 Q   Mr. Muldoe, you mentioned that your wife was 75, was  47 she, your wife? 6313  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  MR.  RUSH:  36  37  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  RUSH:  40  THE  COURT  41  THE  REGIS1  42  43  44  45  46  47  Yes.  That's Lottie?  Yes, Lottie.  And what's her Gitksan name?  Sometimes it gets into my mind, I don't remember.  What is --  Delgamuukw's family.  She's from Delgamuukw's family?  Yes.  Does she have a name in Delgamuukw's house?  Sometimes it's -- yeah, I know it, but sometimes I  have to look at my friend and I won't -- wouldn't even  know the name.  That sometimes happens with your wife?  A few times.  I know the person all my life, but when  I was with a friend I say look at him and look at him  and I don't remember his name, and his name is Frank  Harris.  Okay.  If you -- I just want to ask you about, in  terms of your authority as Gitludahl and Gitludahl's  territory, I was directing you to your authority in  respect of the resource use, and in particular hunting  and trapping, and do you also have authority in  respect of the logging and the timber?  Well, at least we trying to protect the timber, so as  well as trying to protect the animal, too.  Because  without any timber it will be no animal there.  And in respect of the timber, is -- what's been the  effect of the timber, the clear-cutting on the timber  for you?  Well, in the clear cutting of the timber it's not only  affected the animal or anybody else, but we have a  great loss of those timber, because all those timber,  it's into a territory of all the chiefs.  My Lord, I'm just about completed my direct  examination, and I propose that we adjourn slightly  early to see if I have any other questions.  :  Yes, all right.  Thank you.  :  Adjourn for ten minutes, thank you.  PRAR:  Order in court. 6314  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:05)  3  4 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  5 a true and accurate transcript of the  6 proceedings herein transcribed to the  7 best of my skill and ability  8  9  10  11    12 Graham D. Parker  13 Official Reporter  14 United Reporting Service Ltd.  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  6315 6315  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 11:30 a.m.)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  5 MR. RUSH:  6 Q   I have a few more questions, My Lord.  7 Just direct your attention back to the map, Mr.  8 Muldoe, and to the two Kliiyem lax haa territories,  9 and you see where the Kispiox runs between the two  10 Kliiyem lax haa territories.  Can you say -- can you  11 tell us, does the boundary of the -- between the two,  12 does that run down on the east or west side of the  13 river or down the middle of the river between the two  14 Kliiyem lax haa territories?  15 A   Yes, it runs down through the middle of the river.  16 Q   Okay.  Mr. Muldoe, do you speak Gitksan at home?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   You speak Gitksan with your children and  19 grandchildren?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And my last question is do you remember your wife's  22 Gitksan name?  23 THE COURT:  What don't you take the 5th?  24 A   I believe I do.  Her name is Axgii gi'ii.  2 5 MR. RUSH:  26 Q   Axgii gi'ii?  27 A   Yeah.  28 MR. RUSH:  All right.  29 THE TRANSLATOR:  A-x underlined g-i-i space g-i stop i-i.  3 0 THE COURT:  Thank you.  31 MR. RUSH:  Those are my questions for you, Mr. Muldoe, thank  32 you.  33 THE COURT:  Thank you, Mr. Rush.  Mr. Mackenzie or Mrs.  34 Koenigsberg?  Mr. Mackenzie.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, My Lord.  36  37 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACKENZIE:  38 Q   Now, Mr. Muldoe, as you've said in your testimony,  39 your -- your hereditary chief name is Gitludahl?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And you are the head chief of the House of Gitludahl?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And you are a plaintiff in this action?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And as a plaintiff, you claim ownership of  46 territories?  47 A   Yes. 6316  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q And you claim jurisdiction over territories?  2 A Yes.  3 Q And as a plaintiff, you also claim damages for certain  4 things done on the territories?  5 A Yes.  6 Q That means that eventually you will seek compensation?  7 A Yes.  8 Q Yes.  As Gitludahl, which territories do you claim  9 ownership and jurisdiction over?  10 A Well, I have Gitludahl territory, I have Wiigyet's  11 territory and those of Waiget's territory and Wii  12 seeks' territory.  13 Q Let's start first with Gitludahl territory.  14 A Yes.  15 Q Which territory is that?  16 A That's -- that's the one we call the Naa Dax de'et and  17 Gallii Lax Lagit.  18 Q That is Twin Lakes?  19 A Twin Lake.  20 Q Yes?  21 A And Little Fish Lake, that's what's on the west side  22 of Kispiox River.  23 Q Yes.  And I call that area A, because that is the  24 paragraph number in your affidavit.  Now, is that the  25 only territory of Gitludahl?  26 A Yes.  There is another territory, it's across from  27 Kispiox also.  28 Q Gitludahl has another territory?  29 A It's across from Kispiox on the east side of Kispiox  30 Village, the place they called Xsi gwin ya'a.  31 Q And that's at the Salmon River?  32 A That's the Salmon River, right.  33 Q And you did not discuss that in your affidavit?  34 A Well, it's been -- we talked about that, but I don't  35 know if they put it in there.  36 Q Do you know the boundaries of that territory?  37 A Yes.  38 Q And do you claim ownership of that territory?  39 A Well, the boundary runs up on the -- on the south side  40 of Xsi gwin ya'a and also up to a place called Lax  41 ansa matja, it's a berry patch.  42 Q Yes.  We'll have to get a spelling of that?  43 A Yes.  44 THE TRANSLATOR:  Lax ansa matja is L-a-x —  45 MR. RUSH: Could you speak up a little.  46 THE TRANSLATOR:  L-a-x space a-n-s-a space m-a-t-j-a.  47 THE COURT:  M-a-t-g-a? 6317  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE TRANSLATOR:  "J".  2 THE COURT:  "J".  There were two names, were there not?  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  You spoke about Xsi gwin ya'a, yes.  4 THE TRANSLATOR:  Xsi gwin ya'a, X-s-i space g-w-i-n space y-a  5 stop a.  6 THE COURT:  Thank you.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  8 Q   Mr. Muldoe, is this a good place for me to stand to  9 speak to you?  Can you hear me from here?  10 A   Pardon?  11 Q   Can you hear me from here?  12 A   Yes.  I'm a little bit hard of hearing but if you  13 direct your voice I can pretty well hear you.  14 Q   I'm glad I asked that question.  15 Now, does Alvin Weget, W-e-g-e-t, own the  16 territory at Salmon River?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   His chiefs name is Dinii?  19 A   Dinii, yes  20 THE COURT:  D-e — sorry?  21 THE TRANSLATOR:  D-i-n-i-i.  22 THE COURT:  Thank you.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  24 Q   And he is the person who would speak about that  25 territory?  26 A   Yes.  And also I can speak about that too, also.  27 Q   Dinii is a member of the House of Gitludahl?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   He was adopted into the house?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Where did he come from?  32 A   His mother actually came from Kispiox, Anspayaxw.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  Do you need a spelling for that?  I think that's  34 on the plaintiffs' map Exhibit 486, My Lord.  It's —  35 I think that's the name of the Kispiox River and it's  36 the name that must be used for Kispiox.  37 THE TRANSLATOR:  A-n-s-p-a-y-a-x-w.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  39 Q   Which house did Alvin come from, that's Dinii?  40 A  Well the way it is, it's -- Alvin is from -- from  41 Gutginuxw's house and he's been adopted into  42 Gitludahl's.  43 Q   Gutginuxw is number 14 on the plaintiffs' list.  44 Why did you not speak about the Salmon River  45 territory in your affidavit?  46 A  Well, in the feast hall we -- this was in the feast  47 hall we -- and before that while the former Gitludahl 631?  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 was still alive and he is -- what he said, that Alvin  2 cannot take his place until he passed on.  And at the  3 time when he gave me the trapping ground as his  4 territory, and from thereon -- I believe it was in  5 1956 I think, he give me the full authority to talk  6 about both places, and up -- not up there, also, or  7 any one of the fishing hole, because it's pretty  8 well -- I believe it's not too far away from Naa dax  9 de'et at the time.  10 Q   That's Moses?  11 A  Moses Morrison.  12 Q   Let's talk about Dinii, Alvin Weget.  Did Moses give  13 the territory to Alvin Weget?  14 A   He promised to give him after he pass on but not  15 before.  But after he pass on, I give Alvin the  16 territory to look after.  17 Q   So you have two territories; is that right?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Yes.  And you have fishing sites?  20 A   Yes.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now you spoke of Wiigyet's territories,  22 W-i-i-g-y-e-t.  And My Lord, that's number 75, and we  23 are going to have this -- these three names being used  24 back and forth so I'll use the -- I'll try to make  25 that clear to the reporter.  26 THE COURT:  The three names being Wiigyet, Waiget and Alvin  27 Weget?  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  There are — there is Wiigyet, W-i-i, which is  29 number 75.  3 0    THE COURT:  Yes.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  32 Q   There is Waiget, W-a-i-g-e-t, and perhaps we should  33 just keep clear in our mind who the people are.  34 Wiigyet, number 75, is Lloyd Morrison?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Yes.  And Waiget, W-a-i-g-e-t, is Elsie Morrison?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And then we have Wii seeks, correct?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   That's not too difficult to remember but that's Ralph  41 Michelle?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And then we have Alvin Weget, W-e-g-e-t, and Alvin is  44 a member of your house?  45 A   Yes.  46 THE COURT:  Sorry, the Alvin Weget is spelt how, again?  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  W-e-g-e-t. 6319  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  And My Lord, Waiget, W-a-i-g-e-t, Elsie Morrison  3 is number 70.  4 THE COURT:  Yes.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  6 Q   And Wii seeks is number 79.  Sometimes difficult to  7 get those distinguished in the transcript, My Lord.  8 So we are talking now about Lloyd Morrison,  9 correct?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   And you spoke about his territories?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   He has a separate house?  14 A   It's all in the same house as Wiigyet.  15 Q   Yes.  Lloyd Morrison, Wiigyet, has a separate house?  16 A   Yes.  He used to have a separate house, the former  17 Wiigyet.  18 Q   Was that Joe Starr?  19 A   No.  It's before Joe Starr and the first name was  2 0 Alexander White.  21 Q   Alex —  22 A  Alexander White passed on and it passed on to Joe  23 Starr, and Joe Starr passed on and passed on to Lloyd  24 Morrison.  25 Q   Alexander White had a separate house?  26 A   He had Wiigyet's house.  27 Q   And that was a separate house?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   And it had separate territories?  30 A  Well, they all have separate territory but they are  31 still in the same family as Waiget, Wiigyet and the  32 others.  33 Q   And what do you mean by "family"?  34 A  Well -- well, they can take Wiigyet's family or  35 Waiget's family or Wii seeks' family, like the  36 children or the grandchildren or any one of the  37 members of those people.  They all in the family.  38 Q   But they are not in the same house?  39 A  Well, they are not -- they are not in the same -- they  40 don't live in the same place before, but they also  41 have their own houses.  Like Wii seeks has his own  42 house and Wiigyet has his own house but they all  43 related to each other.  44 Q   Yes.  They are close?  45 A   Close, yes.  46 Q   But they are separate houses?  47 A   Yes.  But they all have separate houses, they all in 6320  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 the Gisgaast clan.  2 Q   Yes.  They are all Fireweed clan?  3 A  All Fireweed, in other words.  If you want to put  4 Fireweed or Gisgaast.  5 Q   Yes, Gisgaast.  Okay, we are just trying to get clear  6 the Wiigyet?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Now Wiigyet, Lloyd Morrison's house, came from  9 Kisgagas?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   And before that they came from the village near  12 Kisgagas.  13 Q   Yes?  14 A  And do you know the name of that village?  15 A   Kispiox.  16 Q   No.  I mean before they went to Kisgagas.  So you  17 don't know where Wiigyet's family was before they came  18 to Kisgagas?  19 A  Wiigyet's family is from Kispiox.  20 Q   Yes.  Well you can agree with me that Lloyd Morrison's  21 house, Wiigyet, is a Kisgagas Fireweed house, correct?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   Yes.  So the house first came from Kisgagas, correct?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And before they got to Kisgagas, they came from  26 another ancient Gitksan village, didn't they?  27 A  Well the other Gitksan village it's on the Kuldo,  28 Kuldo Village and Kispiox and Kisgagas, three  29 different places, but they -- all those people are  30 from different -- they live in a different village  31 but they all still in the same Gisgaast family.  32 Q   You know that -- are you aware that in Kisgagas, Geel  33 is Fireweed?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And he was close to Wiigyet who is also a Fireweed?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And they came from Gitangasxw, didn't they?  38 A  Well, they came from Gitangasxw, that's where the  39 first village was.  40 Q   Yes, that's what I mean, yes.  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And that's the village of the wild rice?  43 A   Yes.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  We are still talking about Lloyd  45 Morrison's territory.  Does Your Lordship have that?  4 6    THE COURT:  Yes.  But I'm — I know somewhere that I have it but  47 the spelling of -- 6321  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's Mary Johnson?  2 A   Of the village of wild rice.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  It's up in the Sustat.  The spelling I have, My  4 Lord, is G-i-t-a-n-g-a-s-x-w.  Perhaps Mrs. --  5 THE TRANSLATOR:  That's right.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  Is that what you have also?  7 THE TRANSLATOR:  Um-hmm.  8 THE COURT:  G-i-t-a-n-g-a-s-x-w?  9 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  10 THE COURT:  Yes.  And that's the village of wild rice?  11 THE TRANSLATOR:  Um-hmm.  12 THE COURT:  Where is that?  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  14 Q   It's up on the Sustat, My Lord.  Well, perhaps I'll  15 ask -- sorry, not on the Sustat, it's near the Sustat.  16 Do you know where Gitangasxw is, Mr. Muldoe?  17 A   Gitangasxw is beyond Kuldo.  18 Q   Yes.  It's north of Kuldo?  19 A   North of Kuldo.  20 THE COURT:  North of — north of Old Kuldo?  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  My Lord, James Morrison talked about that  22 in his evidence, it's way up in the -- near where the  23 Skeena and the Sustat meet.  2 4 THE COURT:  Thank you.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  26 Q   So we now have Wiigyet.  Now Gitludahl has been in  27 Kispiox for many, many years, hasn't it?  2 8          A   Yeah.  29 Q   It's originally a Kispiox house?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And before that they came from T'amlaxa'mit?  32 A   T'amlaxa'mit, right.  33 Q   Now you told us about Ye'el which was your name at one  34 time?  35 A   Yeah.  36 Q   And he came from T'amlaxa'mit?  37 A   T'amlaxa'mit.  38 Q   Now you spoke -- you said Wiigyet has territories.  Do  39 you know Wiigyet's territories?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   You claim ownership and jurisdiction over those  42 territories?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   Now which territories are Wiigyet's?  45 A   It's the territory -- it's from -- it's got a  46 territory from -- towards the Kisgagas on down towards  47 the Skeena and goes up along the Skeena. 6322  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   That's the territory which is on your map, Exhibit --  2 A   Yeah.  3 Q   -- 486, and I call that territory B because that's  4 described in paragraph B of your affidavit.  5 Now, does Wiigyet have any other territories?  Any  6 other territories?  7 A   Yeah.  They has this territory along here.  8 Q   And you are referring -- I'll just speak -- I'll just  9 tell the court to what you are referring.  10 A   Yeah.  11 Q   You are pointing to Exhibit 486 and you are referring  12 to the Skeena River down towards -- in the southern  13 part of territory B --  14 A   Yeah.  15 Q   -- on the map?  Yes.  And does Wiigyet have any other  16 territories?  17 A   Yes.  They have a -- also they have a territory up  18 along the -- up in the Laadamus and all the way down  19 to -- to Makhla Skamilsit, Dead-horse Lake and all  20 that.  21 Q   Yes.  You said Xsi Laadamus?  22 A   Xsi Laadamus.  23 Q   And you spoke of Dead-horse Lake?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   So now you are still speaking about this territory B  26 that you described in your affidavit, aren't you?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Yeah.  Now, apart from those -- that territory, do you  29 have -- does Wiigyet have any other territories, Lloyd  30 Morrison?  31 A   Yes.  32 THE COURT:  Well can't you suggest to him Mr. Morrison, Mr.  33 Mackenzie, so he doesn't --  34 THE WITNESS:  They have all their territory in there but I  35 haven't -- didn't go on that, but I think James  36 Morrison been spoke about it as Minhl guu go'ot.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Okay.  In your affidavit you described another  38 Wiigyet territory which is territory R, up in the  39 Sicintine?  40 THE WITNESS:  That's Baskyatsinhlikit.  41 MR. RUSH:  Excuse me, pardon me.  Can we just get the name for  42 that.  There was a name of a territory given just  43 before the question you just asked, Minhl guu go'ot.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm sorry, yes.  45 THE TRANSLATOR:  Minhl guu go'ot, M-i-n-h-1.  46 THE COURT:  M-i-n-h-1?  47 THE TRANSLATOR:  Um-hmm.  G-u-u space g-o-o-t. 6323  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT:  G-o-o-t?  TRANSLATOR:  Um-hmm.  RUSH:  Sorry for interrupting, but the witness then referred  to Baskyatsinhlikit, and that's 1487.  MACKENZIE:  Q   Yes.  That's the territory at Sicintine?  A   Yes.  Q   Territory R on your affidavit.  Now let's -- you are  right, James Morrison spoke about certain territories.  Do you know the Wiigyet territory at Shedin Creek,  that is Luu ska yaans?  Yeah.  Do you claim ownership of that territory also?  What part?  Luu ska yaans?  I would think it's beyond this I think.  It's not in your affidavit?  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  No.  No.  Yes.  Yes.  Do you claim ownership of that territory?  The territory at Shedin Creek, do you know that  territory, north of Kisgagas?  Yes.  Do you know that territory?  Yes.  That's the Sam Green Creek.  That's east of Sam Green Creek, isn't it?  East of -- west of Sam Green Creek.  Yes.  Well now I'm asking you about the territory  north of Kisgagas at Shedin Creek, that is the Luu ska  yaans territory.  Do you know that territory?  Do you  know Dam Similo'o?  Yes.  And who owns that?  It's on the lower side of that, it's -- that's Waiget  owns this here on the low side -- east side of Dam  Similo'o.  Do you know the Wiigyet territory at --  Excuse me.  So that there is no confusion, Waiget is  70, that's W-a-i-g-e-t.  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  Q   So Waiget owns that territory, does he?  A  Waiget, yes.  W-a-i-g-e-t?  Yeah, Waiget  Elsie Morrison?  Yeah, Elsie Morrison.  Q  RUSH:  COURT:  Q  A  Q  A 6324  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   Yes.  Do you know the territory at Chipmunk Creek up  2 in the Skeena?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   Who owns that territory?  5 A   That's Wiigyet.  6 Q   At Xsi maxhla saa Giiblax, do you know that territory,  7 way up in the Skeena, north of the Sustat?  8 THE INTERPRETER:  What was the name?  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  Xsi maxhla saa Giiblax, Chipmunk Creek.  10 THE INTERPRETER:  I can't understand what you are saying.  Do  11 you have a spelling for that?  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, it's in the — we should get the spelling  13 because it's in the word list.  14 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's 950.  15 A   Xsi maxhla saa Giiblax?  16 THE INTERPRETER:  Chipmunk Creek?  17 A   Chipmunk Creek?  That must be the territory right up  18 the head of the Skeena.  There is another territory  19 there but I am not very familiar with that, but I  20 think James Morrison took in that and he spoke about  21 it.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  23 Q   Yes, that's right.  24 A   Yeah.  25 Q   Do you own that territory?  26 A   It belongs to Waiget.  Waiget and also Wiigyet as  27 well.  28 Q   It belongs to Elsie Morrison and to Lloyd Morrison?  2 9 A   Yeah.  3 0 Q   And to you?  31 A  And all -- all the Waigets and all the Gisgaast clan,  32 Waiget, Wiigyet and Wii seeks and all them.  33 Q   So all the Fireweed clan own that territory?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Does Geel own that territory?  36 A   Not Geel.  37 Q   He is Fireweed clan?  38 A   Yeah.  But are they all separate, they own different  39 territories.  40 Q   Does Wiigyet -- does Lloyd Morrison have any fishing  41 sites?  42 A   Yes, they have fishing site at Kisgagas there.  43 Q   And do you own that also?  44 A  Well we -- we -- anyone of the family of the Gitludahl  45 or anybody else have the right to go in there, as  46 well, Waiget or anybody else.  Somebody within the  47 family of Wii seeks and all of them, they have rights 6325  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 to go in there.  2 Q   And do you know of any other territories?  Do you know  3 of a Lloyd Morrison territory over near Bear Lake?  4 A   That's the one I just told you about.  I think James  5 Morrison been spoke about it, the one towards --  6 Q   No, south of Bear Lake?  7 A   Yeah.  That's towards -- on the Babine side, the Minhl  8 guu go'ot.  9 Q   Now, you don't know about the territory south of Bear  10 Lake.  I'm handing a map to Mrs. Sampson and asking  11 her to give the name of that territory and ask Mr.  12 Muldoe whether he knows that territory?  13 A   I have been in there but it's one James Morrison spoke  14 about it.  15 Q   That's Mount Horetsky?  16 A   Yeah.  Minhl guu go'ot, that's the one I just been  17 mentioning to you.  18 Q   Yes.  19 A   But I've never been on that place.  20 Q   James Morrison didn't mention that?  21 A   No.  I don't know if he mentioned it.  I kind of think  22 he was going to mention some of it.  23 Q   Well, you own that territory as well?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Yes.  Now let's talk about Elsie Morrison.  She has a  26 separate house?  27 A  Well it's -- it's House of Wiigyet and Wii seeks also.  28 Q   Elsie Morrison's house came from Kisgagas also?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And where did Elsie Morrison's house come from before  31 Kisgagas?  32 A   That's from Wiigyet's house.  33 Q   Where did Elsie Morrison's house come from before they  34 came to Kisgagas?  35 A  Well, the beginning there was all the people that  36 lived from T" amlaxa'mit and then they moved from there  37 up to Kispiox and then they separated from there and  38 they all divided up into different areas.  39 Q   Did you know that Elsie Morrison's house, Waiget, came  40 from the Nass Valley?  41 A   That's what they were saying but I don't know too much  42 about it.  43 Q   And does Elsie Morrison have separate territories?  44 A   Yes, that's all Waiget's territory now, that's been  45 passed on to Elsie Morrison.  All that Waiget's  46 territory to form Waiget's -- Simon Morrison is  47 Waiget, James Morrison's father, and when he pass on 6326  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 it's passed onto Elsie Morrison in the feast house.  2 Q Does Wii seeks have separate territories?  3 A Well, Wii seeks is also -- it's in with Wiigyet or  4 Waiget and they have a house at Kisgagas.  5 Q Wii seeks came from Kisgagas?  6 A Yes.  7 Q He was Fireweed at Kisgagas?  8 A Fireweed, yeah.  9 Q And he came to Kisgagas only about 100 years ago,  10 correct?  11 A Yes.  It's maybe more, more than hundred, maybe couple  12 thousand years ago, because the name doesn't die.  13 When a person pass on, they pass it on to generation  14 to generation and right up to today.  15 Q Well, Wii seeks came from the Nass Valley to Kisgagas  16 about 100 years ago.  Do you recall that, hearing that  17 or knowing that?  18 A I know there is someone that's named Wii seeks came,  19 but I never did talk with these people how they got  2 0 the name.  21 Q Okay.  Do you know Thomas Wright?  22 A Thomas Wright, yes, I know him.  23 Q And he has passed away?  24 A Yes.  25 Q Do you remember meeting with him in December, 1983?  26 A Yes.  27 Q Yes?  28 A (WITNESS NODS HEAD IN RESPONSE)  29 Q And he told you that Wii seeks came from the Nass 100  30 years ago?  31 A Yes.  32 Q Didn't he?  33 A Maybe.  I just forgot about it.  34 Q Oh.  35 THE COURT:  Well, I don't know if the witness is saying that he  36 was told that or he wasn't.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  38 Q Do you remember Thomas telling you that?  39 A Yes.  40 Q Yes.  And Thomas Wright is Guuhadak or was Guuhadak?  41 A Yes.  42 Q And Guuhadak is a plaintiff in this litigation, number  43 15.  44 So now we have separate houses in the Fireweed  45 clan, correct?  4 6 A Um-hmm.  47 Q They are very close, Wii seeks, Wiigyet? 6327  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  Wiigyet.  2 Q   Waiget?  3 A  Waiget.  4 Q   And Gitludahl?  5 A   Gitludahl.  6 Q   Before 1985, you were Wii seeks?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Did you have your own territory then?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And that was at Shaladamus?  11 A   Shaladamus and Makhla Skamilsit and Xsi wii dax yans  12 too.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  We have to get the spellings for those.  14 THE COURT:  I have Shaladamus, it's on the map.  The other one?  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  16 THE TRANSLATOR:  What was the other one?  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  Perhaps you could just repeat what you said  18 for --  19 THE WITNESS:  Shaladamus and Dam Makhla Skamilsit and Xsi wii  20 dax yans and Baskyatsinhlikit.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  So what's —  22 MR. RUSH:  Just a moment.  23 THE TRANSLATOR:  Maxhla milkst is M-a-x-h-1-a space m-i-1-k-s-t.  24 THE COURT:  K-s —  25 THE TRANSLATOR: "T".  2 6 THE COURT: "T".  27 THE TRANSLATOR:  Xsi wii dax yans is X-s-i space w-i-i space  28 d-a-x space y-a-n-s.  2 9 THE COURT:  Thank you.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  31 Q   You've just been naming the places in your territory  32 shown on the map Exhibit 486, haven't you?  33 A   Yeah.  34 Q   Yes.  That's territory B, the Wiigyet territory.  35 MR. RUSH:  Maxhla milkst is not on that map.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  37 Q   Is that -- where is that creek?  Is that in that  38 territory?  39 A  Which one?  40 Q   Maxhla milkst?  41 A   Dam Makhla Skamilsit is there at -- Dead-horse Lake is  42 what you want to call it.  That's the name of the  43 Indian name of it, Dam Makhla Skamilsit.  And the next  44 before that is Xsi wii dax yans.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, I understand that.  46 MR. RUSH:  It's in the territory, My Lord.  My point was it was  47 suggested it was named or placed on the map.  It was 632?  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 in the territory but not named on the map.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  3 Q   What's important is that these houses are in the  4 Fireweed clan, correct?  5 A   Yeah.  You say what's important about all these  6 houses.  All these houses is where -- they own -- each  7 house is -- that's where they have their own laws and  8 what they tell the people what to do.  And this is  9 very important that they all live in the different  10 house but they still in the same family.  11 Q   Okay.  These territories are Fireweed territories?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Yeah.  And all these houses can use the territories?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And all these houses claim ownership of the  16 territories?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   When the -- when the action started, Moses Morrison  19 was Gitludahl in October 1984?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And Lloyd Morrison was Wiigyet in October 1984?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And they were both plaintiffs?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And then in September 1986, you became the plaintiff  26 Gitludahl?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Yes.  And you spoke for Wii seeks?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Waiget, Elsie Morrison?  31 A   Right.  32 Q   And Wiigyet, Lloyd Morrison?  33 A  Wiigyet, yes.  34 Q   Because they were a separate house?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   But they were close?  37 A   Close.  They were all combined.  38 Q   And in May 1987, Wii seeks and Waiget were taken out  39 of the action, weren't they?  40 A   Yes.  But they -- yes.  The way they -- the way we do  41 it, most of the -- like you take Wii seeks and Wiigyet  42 and Waiget, and Wii seeks is just a young person now  43 and so is Lloyd Morrison.  Wiigyet -- actually, he's  44 supposed to be the head chief in there to -- and as  45 they chosen me to be an elderly person to speak over  46 them -- like in the Indian ways, no younger person can  47 speak over the older person, because -- that's the 6329  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 reason why I have to speak for all this territory.  2 Q   Now, in your evidence you spoke about the genealogy of  3 Gitludahl, didn't you?  4 A   Um-hmm.  5 Q   And that was marked as Exhibit 474.  Most of the  6 people in Gitludahl now have been adopted, correct?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Yes.  The people, the members of the Gitludahl now, do  9 not have blood ties --  10 A   Yeah.  11 Q   -- with former members?  12 A   Yeah.  13 Q   Correct?  14 A   Right.  15 Q   Yes.  So you became a member of Gitludahl in 19 --  16 when was that?  17 A   '85.  '85 when I take over the name of Gitludahl.  18 Q   Now you were adopted into the house before that,  19 weren't you?  20 A   Yes.  I believe in '56 when he first mentioned to me  21 that -- and also in '56 when he give me the territory  22 of his hunting ground and trapping ground.  But I  23 cannot use his name until he pass on.  And when --  24 after he pass on in '85, that's when I took -- his  25 name pass on to me.  But before that I cannot use  26 that, but he is already spoke about it at the -- I'll  27 be taking -- I'll be his successor and also Ye'el as  28 well.  29 Q   You were still in --  30 A   In —  31 Q   -- Wiigyet's house, Lloyd Morrison's house, weren't  32 you?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And your name was Wii seeks?  35 A  Wii seeks.  36 Q   You were in two houses at the same time, weren't you?  37 A   Yeah.  38 Q   Are you still a member of Lloyd Morrison's house?  39 A  We all combine together in the same family.  40 Q   And so your name appears in Lloyd Morrison's family  41 genealogy?  42 A   Um-hmm.  43 Q   Exhibit 475, that's Wiigyet's house, correct?  44 A   Yeah.  45 Q   But Ralph Michelle was adopted into Gitludahl?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And then he took the name Wii seeks in 1985? 6330  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  A   Yes.  Q   And he left Gitludahl?  A  Well he left he had to go onto Wiigyet's table and for  me I had to go onto Gitludahl's table, but we was  still in one family.  Right today some of Gitludahl's  family are sitting on Wiigyet's table  Q   You are still in the Fireweed clan?  A  We are still all in the Fireweed clan.  Q   But Ralph Michelle is no longer in Gitludahl's  genealogy, Ralph Michelle is in Wiigyet, right?  A   Yes.  Q   Yes.  So Ralph Michelle could be a member of one house  at a time, correct?  A  Well, he could be the member of -- he has just as much  right into any one of the house.  Q   But Ralph Michelle is no longer on Gitludahl's  genealogy, is he?  A  Well that's — I think Ralph Michelle is still on  that, I'm pretty sure.  Because the name of -- the  name of -- the name is given by Moses, former  Gitludahl, was given to Ralph Michelle before he took  the name of Wii seeks was Aal'aagat, given by Moses  Morrison.  MACKENZIE:  We have to get the spelling for that.  TRANSLATOR:  It's A-a-1 stop.  COURT:  Sorry, was that A-a-1?  TRANSLATOR:  Stop a-a-g-a-t.  COURT:  And what is that, please?  MACKENZIE:  That is Ralph Michelle's name before he took Wii  seeks, the name Wii seeks, My Lord.  COURT:  Thank you.  MACKENZIE:  Q   Is that the cranky man?  A   The cranky man, yes.  RUSH:  Well, My Lord, that name as the evidence was, was the  name given by Moses Morrison in the House of  Gitludahl, given to Ralph Michelle prior to his taking  the name of Wii seeks.  COURT:  I'm not sure there is anything different from what  each of you said.  If there is I have missed it.  RUSH:  Well, I think that -- there may not be.  I thought  that the -- part of what the explanation given by Mr.  Mackenzie should have included, that it was part --  that it was Gitludahl's house and there was a  suggestion, at least in my mind, that it was in Wii  seeks'.  COURT:  I think that I understood that it was his name  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  MR.  25  THE  26  THE  27  THE  28  THE  29  MR.  30  31  THE  32  MR.  33  34  35  MR.  36  37  38  39  THE  40  41  MR.  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE 6331  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 before he became Wii seeks which meant that it was in  2 Gitludahl's house.  I think we are all ad idem.  Do  3 you need the spelling of that?  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q   Now you joined Gitludahl's table in about 1985; is  6 that right?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   So you are still not familiar with the seating at the  9 table?  10 A   Yes.  Not on Gitludahl's table, yes.  11 Q   Yes.  And you are still not familiar with the -- with  12 the relationships between the early members of  13 Gitludahl's family?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   You didn't -- you didn't know that -- you didn't know  16 the name of Noxs ye'el's sister, for example?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   You don't know that?  19 A   Don't know.  20 Q   No.  Noxs ye'el is N-o-x-s new word y-e-'-e-l.  And  21 you said that many members of Gitludahl today came  22 from -- were adopted from Wiigyet, Lloyd Morrison's  23 house?  24 A   Yeah.  25 Q   Correct?  But Alvin Weget, W-e-g-e-t, came from  26 Gutginuxw, correct?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Number 14 on the plaintiffs' list.  So you have no  29 blood ties with Dinii, Alvin Weget, do you?  30 A   No.  31 Q   No.  32 A   But the time -- at the time when -- before Moses  33 passed on, he chose me -- me and Alvin to be work  34 together on his behalf, but they chose me to take his  35 name at the time.  36 Q   Yes.  Now I wanted to ask you a question about  37 Wiigyet, Lloyd Morrison's family.  You don't know  38 the -- who William Jackson's mother is, do you?  39 A   No.  That was way before my time.  40 Q   That's before your time?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   Yes.  And his name used -- was Wii seeks, correct?  43 A   Oh, yes.  44 Q   You knew that though, didn't you?  45 A   I know the name but I don't know the person.  46 Q   Yeah.  You didn't know William Jackson's mother's  47 sister either, did you? 6332  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   No.  2 Q   I mean -- I beg your pardon, that was before your  3 time?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   But you've never heard of William Jackson's mother's  6 sister, have you?  7 A   No.  8 Q   No.  You don't know if she had a sister, do you?  9 A   I know Hannah Jackson.  10 Q   We are talking about William Jackson's mother.  11 A   No.  12 Q   You don't know anything about her, do you?  13 A   Because William Jackson is about pretty close to 70  14 when I knew him.  15 Q   Yes.  Yes, he died?  16 A   Before that.  17 Q   I'm going to ask that Exhibit 475 be placed in front  18 of Mr. Muldoe, that's the Wiigyet genealogy at tab --  19 THE COURT:  Five.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  Tab 5.  21 THE COURT:  I think if you are going to start his genealogy that  22 we will explore our lunch before that.  23 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until two  24  25 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:30 p.m.)  26  27 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  28 a true and accurate transcript of the  29 proceedings herein transcribed to the  30 best of my skill and ability.  31  32  33  34  35  36 Toni Kerekes,  37 O.R., R.P.R.  38 United Reporting Service Ltd.  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 6333  Discussion  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 2:00)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Calling Delgamuukw versus Her  4 Majesty the Queen at bar, my Lord.  5 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my Lord.  Before the noon recess, my Lord,  7 we were speaking about the village of Wild Rice.  8 THE COURT:  Yes.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  And just refer your Lordship to Canada's map,  10 and give your Lordship the location of that village.  11 And this information was taken from James Morrison's  12 evidence.  13 THE COURT:  Yes.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  And if your Lordship will look up in the  15 north-east part of the land claim area your Lordship  16 will see where the Sustat River flows into the Skeena  17 River.  We looked at that area when we spoke of James  18 Morrison's --  19 THE COURT:  Is the Sustat north or south of the Mosque?  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  It's south of the Mosque.  It's the big river  21 that flows out of Bear Lake into the Skeena.  22 Remember, Bear Lake was on the eastern part of the  23 land claim area there.  I'm just pointing to your  24 Lordship.  Does your Lordship see that?  2 5 THE COURT:  Not yet.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  Does your Lordship see where the Skeena River  27 has a very pronounced turn east and then goes north,  28 the north central -- it goes generally north and all  29 of a sudden it turns east, and then it goes north  30 again.  31 THE COURT:  No.  I don't — oh, I'm sorry, I've found the  32 railroad, not --  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, the railroad is good, my Lord, because the  34 railroad goes along Bear Lake and then along the  35 Sustat River and then continues up the Skeena.  36 THE COURT:  Well, I'm sorry, I haven't found Bear Lake yet.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm pointing to it, your Lordship.  38 THE COURT:  Yes.  I have it, I have the Sustat, yes.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  You see that, my Lord, and see where it flows  40 into the Skeena?  41 THE COURT:  Yes.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, if your Lordship will go just a little bit  43 west of that junction you will come to -- if your  44 Lordship goes along you will see -- about three creeks  45 along you will see Gitangasxw Creek going along the  46 Skeena, going west along the Skeena from the junction  47 of the Sustat. 6334  Discussion  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  And then there is — there's a creek, a point  3 called Babiche Hill, B-a-b-i-c-h-e.  4 THE COURT:  I have that, yes.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  And beside that is Gitangasxw Creek.  Well,  6 that's the area that that village is located, the  7 village of Wild Rice, and your Lordship will recall it  8 was Mary McKenzie, I think your Lordship noted, came  9 from there as well.  10 THE COURT:  Yes.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  At any rate, Mr. Rush and Miss Koenigsberg are  12 discussing the other overlays to Canada's map, my  13 Lord.  14 MR. RUSH:  Yes, we are, because I don't seem to have the one  15 that was being referred to by my friend.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  I wasn't referring to it, my Lord, I was  17 referring to the underlying map, of course.  18 THE COURT:  Yes.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  The location is evident from the base map.  2 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  22 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  My Lord, before I continue with Mr. Muldoe's  24 cross-examination I wanted to file some  25 interrogatories which relate to the cross-examination  26 this morning before the break.  And the first one is  27 found at tab 5 of volume 1.  28 THE REGISTRAR:  Do you want the witness to have this book?  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  No.  I'm just filing interrogatories.  The  30 witness will be referring to the book later though,  31 thank you very much, Madam Registrar.  32 THE COURT:  I don't need the book.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  My Lord, we're filing interrogatories.  They're  34 in the book, they're in volume 1, and the first one I  35 want to refer to is tab 5.  It's Lloyd Morrison,  36 Wiigyet, W-i-i-g-y-e-t, and that affidavit and  37 interrogatory, 59C, is Exhibit 418.  38 THE COURT:  The affidavit or the interrogatory?  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  The affidavit, which is —  4 0 THE COURT:  Is 418?  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  January 23, 1987 is Exhibit 51 — I beg your  42 pardon -- 418, and interrogatory 59C is included in  43 that Exhibit 418 at page 13 following the affidavit.  44 THE COURT:  Is that part of 418 as well?  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my Lord.  And then here's a point, my Lord.  46 There's two maps attached to that interrogatory, and  47 one is part 2 of 2.  Your Lordship has the small one, 6335  Discussion  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 part 1 of 2.  2 THE COURT:  Yes.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  Part 2 of 2, which is the next map in there.  4 Your Lordship doesn't need to take it out except that  5 that is also Exhibit 418.  6 THE COURT:  Yes?  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  So the point is, my Lord, I wish to have the  8 other map, part 1 of 2, marked as an exhibit.  The  9 witness referred it this morning, and that's the map  10 of Mount Horetsky, you will recall, my Lord, the  11 witness spoke about that this morning.  12 THE COURT:  How do you spell Horetsky, please?  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  H-o-r-e-t-s-k-y, I think, my Lord.  14 THE COURT:  And is that — is that a map of Territory A in the  15 affidavit?  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  That is a map of a territory claimed by Lloyd  17 Morrison, Wiigyet, plaintiff number 75, and I'm not  18 going to go into it in any detail with your Lordship  19 except to say that that mountain lies far to the east  20 in the land claim area over and in the south of Bear  21 Lake area.  Now, my Lord, I would submit that as the  22 next exhibit.  23 THE COURT:  Should it be separately numbered or should it be  24 related to the other one or related to the company  25 which it is found?  Perhaps it's different from what  26 we have had up to now, it should be a separate number.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  I submit it should be, my Lord, because there's  28 a point --  2 9 THE COURT:  Any objection, Mr. Rush?  30 MR. RUSH:  I was going to suggest that the -- they be Exhibits  31 14A, B, and C -- or at least, sorry, 418 and then the  32 maps be 418A and B.  33 THE COURT:  Well, I tend to think that they should be.  Not much  34 turns on it, but if they're in a tab with other  35 documents 418 it seems to me that it would be easier  36 to locate and less confusion.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Fine, my Lord, I have no objection to that.  So  38 I would submit then, my Lord, that since the other map  39 and the affidavit and interrogatory 59C or Exhibit  40 418, this map, which is part 1 of 2 could be 418A.  41 THE COURT:  You're suggesting that the interrogatories should be  42 B and the map C, Mr. Rush?  43 MR. RUSH:  I'm suggesting —  4 4 THE COURT:  Or two maps?  45 MR. RUSH:  That the interrogatory be 418 and the maps be 418A  4 6 and B.  47 THE COURT:  Yeah.  I think that's probably the safest way of 6336  Discussion  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 doing it.  So the larger map will be 418A -- sorry --  2 418B.  All right.  3 THE REGISTRAR:  The large one is 418B and the smaller one is  4 418A?  5  6 EXHIBIT 418A - Tab 5 - Black book (A.G./B.C.)  7 small map - Mount Horetsky  8  9 EXHIBIT 418B - Tab B - Black book (A.G./B.C.)  10 Large map - territory  11  12 THE COURT:  Yes.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  My Lord, these are the only two maps that were  14 supplied with this interrogatory 59C.  15 THE COURT:  Yes.  What is the large map?  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  The large map is the territory that James  17 Morrison spoke about at Shedin Creek.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  And your Lordship will recall that included Dam  19 Similo'o Lake.  20 THE COURT:  Yes.  This one does not?  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  That territory does, and that is the map of that  22 territory.  23 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  This is moving into argument, but one of the  25 points will be that the Wiigyet, W-i-i-g-y-e-t,  26 territories disclosed by this witness were not the  27 subject of answers by the Lloyd Morrison, whose  28 chief's name is Wiigyet, and still at that tab, my  29 Lord, interrogatory number 24, that interrogatory is:  30  31 "What are the names, places of residence, ages and  32 occupations of the members of your house?"  33  34 That's at page 5.  35 THE COURT:  Yes.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  And the answer is:  37  38 "The members of my house whom I recall at this  39 time and their places of residence and approximate  40 ages are attached to Schedule A."  41  42 And Schedule A follows at page 34 and 35, those two --  43 and 36.  Those interrogatory 24 and Schedule A, I  44 would submit, are the next exhibit, and that could be  45 in the 418 series.  46 THE COURT:  I've already marked it 419.  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my Lord. 6337  Discussion  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  The question and the answer and the Schedule A will  2 all be 419.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  My Lord —  4 THE REGISTRAR:  491, my Lord.  5 THE COURT:  4 91, yes.  6 MR. RUSH:  Which question is that?  7 THE COURT:  That's question 24.  8 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  9 THE COURT:  And the answer and the Schedule A, 491.  10  11 EXHIBIT 491 - Tab 5 - Black book (A.G./B.C.)  12 interrogatory number 24 - Schedule A  13  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  And now, my Lord, I refer to the document at tab  15 4.  This is the affidavit of Wii seeks, Ralph  16 Michelle, dated May 5, 1987.  And I wish to file  17 interrogatory 24, which is on page 5, and I'll just  18 read that interrogatory number 24, my Lord:  19  20 "What are the names, places of residence, ages and  21 occupations of the members of your house?"  22  23 The answer is:  24  25 "Wii seeks, Waiget, and Wiigyet are three separate  26 houses that belong to one family, therefore the  27 house list is the same as the House of Wiigyet,  28 see schedule A to the affidavit of Wiigyet,  29 January 23, 1987. "  30  31 THE COURT:  That was Exhibit 491, was it not?  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  My Lord, I think that would be the next exhibit,  33 so that would be --  34 THE COURT:  4 92.  35 THE REGISTRAR:  492.  36 THE COURT:  But the schedule we just marked as 491.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's correct, my Lord.  38 THE REGISTRAR:  491.  39 THE COURT:  Right.  This will be Exhibit 492.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  So, my Lord, that would be the affidavit of  41 Ralph Michelle.  42 THE COURT:  Yes.  And interrogatory 24.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  Interrogatory 24.  And also included in that, my  44 Lord, interrogatory 59C, which is on page 13 at that  45 same tab, tab 4:  46  47 "What are the boundaries of your house's 633?  Discussion  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 territory.  2 My territory is within the boundaries of Wiigyet's  3 house territory."  4  5 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  That will also be part of Exhibit  6 492.  7  8 EXHIBIT 492 - Tab 4 - Black book (A.G./B.C.)  9 Affidavit of Ralph Michelle and May 5, 1987  10 interrogatories number 24, 59C  11  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  And now, my Lord, the document at tab 3, which  13 is the -- this is the affidavit of Peter Muldoe dated  14 February, I think it's 5, my Lord, 1987.  15 THE COURT:  That will be 493.  16 THE REGISTRAR:  493.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  And now interrogatory 24 at page 6, and I will  18 just read that interrogatory, my Lord:  19  20 "What are the names, places of residence, ages and  21 occupations of the members of your House?  22 The members of my House whom I recall at this time  23 and their places of residence and approximate ages  24 are attached to Schedule A.  The members of the  25 Houses of Wiigyet are listed in his affidavit.  26 These people are also members of Gitludahl's House  27 and I am also a member of Wiigyet's House.  The  28 names, ages and residence are based on my  29 knowledge and information provided by others."  30  31 And so, my Lord, I would add Schedule A, refer to  32 Schedule A.  33 THE COURT:  Yes.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  Which is at page 39 following that tab.  35 THE COURT:  That will be Exhibit 493.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  This is at tab 3.  37 THE COURT:  Tab 3, Exhibit 493, Mr. Rush, is the affidavit and  38 interrogatory 24 and the answer and the Schedule A on  39 page 39.  40 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  And my Lord, interrogatory 59C at page 15,  42 reading that:  43  44 "What are the boundaries of your House's  45 territory?  46 The boundary of some of Gitludahl's territory is  47 set out in Schedule C.  This does not include my 6339  Discussion  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 fishing sites.  Gitludahl also has a territory  2 around Salmon River."  3  4 This map also does not include Wiigyet's territory,  5 W-i-i-g-y-e-t.  His territory is described in his own  6 affidavit.  7 THE COURT:  All right.  That will be 493.  Where is schedule C?  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  Schedule C should be attached, my Lord, in the  9 pocket, and that is a -- well, this is -- this is the  10 map that was provided.  It's label says Schedule B.  11 THE COURT:  Yes.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  But, my Lord, I'm advised that this is the map  13 that was provided and referred to in the --  14 THE COURT:  It should be Schedule C, should it?  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my Lord.  I think Mr. Rush will agree with  16 that.  He referred to this map this morning in his  17 evidence.  This will be schedule C to the  18 interrogatories responsive to Peter Muldoe, and that  19 generally speaking, the Gitludahl Territory A, which  20 has been referred to in the evidence with some  21 differences, as Mr. Rush pointed out, or as the  22 evidence pointed out this morning.  My Lord, I don't  23 propose to go into that in detail now.  24 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  All right.  That will be part of  25 Exhibit 493.  26  27 EXHIBIT 493 - Tab 3 - Black book (A.G./B.C.)  28 affidavit of Peter Muldoe dated February 5, 1987,  29 interrogatories number 24 - Schedule A number 59C-  30 Map.  Schedule B should be C  31  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  And so I would like just to refer Mr. Muldoe to  33 tab 5, Exhibit 491, Schedule A.  This is a list of  34 Lloyd Morrison's House members at tab 5.  35 MR. RUSH:  Just before my friend does that, my Lord, your  36 attention was drawn to an interrogatory, Wiigyet's  37 interrogatory, which is Exhibit 418, and your  38 attention was drawn to two maps, and it was  39 particularly drawn to the fact that there were only  40 two maps there.  There seemed to be a point to be made  41 by that.  I wonder if my friend is going to inform the  42 court that there was an interrogatory earlier filed on  43 August the 7th of 1986 to which there was a map  44 attached?  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  I understand that's the — that's the  46 Schedule C that's referred to in Exhibit 418,  47 interrogatory 59C, and that interrogatory, as I read 6340  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 To your Lordship, that's Exhibit 418 at page 13.  The  2 approximate boundaries are set out in Schedule C.  3 Schedule C has already been delivered, and my friend  4 is correct, Schedule C had been delivered and this is  5 it right here.  6 THE COURT:  When you say "This is it right here", what do you  7 mean?  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  This Is Exhibit 418, the maps that we have  9 marked as Exhibit 418 — as Exhibit 418A and 418B.  10 THE COURT:  Does that meet your point, Mr. Rush?  11 MR. RUSH:  I'm not sure that it does, my Lord, because the  12 reference to the affidavit in the affidavit that was  13 filed in August of 1986 made reference to a Schedule  14 B.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, I don't know what the point of this is, my  16 Lord.  Does my friend say there are other maps?  If  17 so, we would like to see them.  These are the only  18 maps we received.  I don't understand what my friend's  19 point is, but I would be willing to hear what it is.  20 MR. RUSH:  I don't -- I presume that my friend is saying that --  21 that is that the maps that are contained in Exhibit  22 418 are the same as those that were sworn in -- or in  23 the -- that were attached to the affidavit of August  24 the 7th?  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's my understanding, my Lord, of the  26 situation.  27 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  My Lord, just to clarify this:  As your Lordship  29 may be aware, there were extended interlocutory  30 proceedings in this case, and interrogatories were  31 answered and then application was made to Mr. Justice  32 Locke for further questions to be answered, and in  33 fact that order was given and then a subsequent set of  34 interrogatories were sworn, including a first set and  35 including the new questions.  So that's why, as Mr.  36 Rush says, there was an earlier affidavit.  37 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  And I have exhibited the later affidavit, which  39 I understand my instructions are includes the earlier  40 questions and answers and is the up-to-date version.  41 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  43 Q   Well, my Lord, we were speaking -- I won't carry on  44 with that discussion.  We were speaking this morning  45 about the genealogies, which are Exhibit 475, and  46 they're at tab 5 of the plaintiff's documents.  And  47 Mr. Muldoe, we were talking about this this morning? 6341  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Um-hum.  2 Q   And we were talking about the names that appear on  3 page 2 of your genealogy, that is Wiigyet,  4 W-i-i-g-y-e-t, and you recall that we mentioned  5 William Jackson?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   He was a former Wii seeks?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And then I -- you agreed with me that you didn't have  10 any information about William Jackson's mother?  11 A   Right.  12 Q   Yeah.  And we all presume he had a mother, but we  13 don't know whether she had any sisters, do we?  14 A   No.  15 Q   No.  As you say, that was before your time.  Well, my  16 Lord, and Mr. Muldoe, I'm referring you now to page 9  17 of Exhibit 475, and you will see at the top that the  18 group shown includes Johnathan Johnson, correct?  I  19 beg your pardon, it includes Esther Mediik?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And that comes from the top line, which would be a  22 sister of William Jackson's mother, right?  Can you  23 figure that one out?  Can you see that they would be  24 the same line up there; is that -- that's the  25 relationship, isn't it, between you and --  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And Esther Mediik, is through the top line sister,  28 correct?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Yes.  That sister goes back to William Jackson's  31 mother, correct?  You see that?  32 A  Whose sister, Esther Mediik.  33 Q   Yes.  You see Esther Mediik is there?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And she comes down the line from the top sister?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   Yes.  That's the only relationship you would have to  38 Esther Mediik, isn't it?  39 A  Well, Esther Mediik is -- she's older than I am.  40 Q   Yes?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   She's -- she's passed away?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   Yes.  Let's go over to page 10, and here we have a  45 line of people, including at the bottom people alive  46 now, would be Joe Wilson, is one of them, correct?  47 A   Yes. 6342  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q And you see that Louise Wilson also?  2 A Yes.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Does your Lordship have that?  4 THE COURT:  Yes.  5 A Louise Wilson, I think she passed on.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  7 Q You think -- yes?  8 A She got into a car accident, she died.  9 Q Yes.  That's actually shown there, so that should have  10 a dot in it to indicated she's passed on, her symbol  11 there.  Do you see that Simon Morrison?  12 A Yes.  13 Q Is there in that list, page 10?  14 A Yes.  15 Q And he was a former Waiget, W-a-i-g-e-t?  16 A Yes.  17 Q Yes.  And do you also see that James Guuxwo'txw is  18 there on the second line from the top?  19 A Um-hum.  20 Q And that looks -- he certainly has passed on, hasn't  21 he?  22 A Yes.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, James Guuxwo'txw is shown here as Charles  24 Morrison's brother, isn't he?  25 MR. RUSH:  No, he doesn't.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  27 Q Sorry.  Charles Morrison's brother-in-law?  28 A That's way back.  29 Q Yes.  That's before your time?  30 A Yes.  31 Q Yes.  James Guuxwo'txw is shown as Sarah's brother,  32 correct?  33 A Yes.  34 Q Did you ever know James Guuxwo'txw?  35 A No.  36 Q Did you know Simon Morrison?  37 A I know Simon Morrison, yes.  38 Q Did you know his brother?  39 A His brother died quite awhile ago, I think.  40 Q His brother?  41 A I heard about him, but he died quite a long time ago.  42 Q His brother was James Guuxwo'txw, wasn't he?  Yes?  43 Did you know that?  44 A I know he had a brother, but I didn't know his name at  4 5 the time.  46 Q Okay.  Let me just ask you about this --  47 A I think he died way back in -- I think he died way 6343  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 back in the last -- First World War.  2 Q   Yes?  3 A   That's too far back.  4 Q   Your relationship to the people on page 10 come  5 through this person at the top of the line, the top of  6 the page, don't they?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Yes.  And if that person -- can you agree that if that  9 person was not there he would not have a blood  10 relationship with these people; is that fair to say?  11 Do you understand that?  12 A   He could not have a blood relationship with them, but  13 they stay in the same family.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  But I'm going to suggest to you that they  15 would be a completely separate group and not related  16 to you by blood.  Can you agree with that, if you  17 didn't have that person at the top of page 10?  18 THE COURT:  You mean this unnamed person?  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  20 Q   Yes, my Lord.  So I guess you will agree with that?  21 A   Even if say from Waiget's family -- and Waiget's  22 family, and this is passed onto there and on down  23 right down to generation, now it's still the same  24 thing, because they changed the name as they go on and  25 they pass onto other people.  They still -- the name  26 still remains, but other people might be --  27 Q   You were talking about page 10, and I think you will  28 agree with me that you really don't have any  29 information at all about this person at the top of  30 page 10; is that correct?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Okay.  And in fact, you don't -- you don't know  33 whether William Jackson's mother had any sisters, do  34 you?  35 A   No.  36 Q   Now, your house is an essential part of your identity;  37 is that correct?  Your house is an essential part of  38 your identity as a Gitksan person?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Yes.  And your house -- your house is the kinship  41 group into which you were born; is that correct?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   Yeah.  I have finished my questions on Exhibit 475 for  44 now.  I would like to ask you some questions about  45 Exhibit 474, which is at tab 4 of the plaintiff's  46 documents.  And I want to ask you about these  47 adoptions on Exhibit 474.  Looking at page 1, you were 6344  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31    THE COU]  32    MR. MAC]  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  adopted in 1956, correct?  Yes.  When was Emma Tait adopted?  That was way before my time.  I think I know Emma  Tait, but it's in the House of Gutginuxw and she was  about -- she's about 60 or 70 when she died, quite  awhile ago.  She was from the House of Gutginuxw?  Yes.  That's —  Yes.  That's number 14 on the plaintiff's list.  So she was  adopted many years before 1956?  Yes.  Yes.  Alvin Weget, when was he adopted?  I think he was adopted in between 50's -- or between  '56 or after '56 when he comes in, I think.  After the  year he live in Kitwanga.  Alvin Weget used to live in Kitwanga?  Yes.  And did he have a territory down there?  No.  Was he a member of the Kitwancool people?  I know a lot of Kitwancool people.  Was Alvin Weget a Kitwancool chief?  No.  So he was adopted before 1956?  I think he was adopted somewhere around -- either  before or between '56 and -- between '50 and -- wasn't  sure what year he was adopted into.  :  I'm sorry, I have a note he was adopted after 1956.  JZIE:  So you think he was adopted before 1956; is that  correct?  Yes.  Yeah.  Now, when was Gordon Johnson adopted?  I think there that we didn't have -- just when he was  adopted in there, because actually Gordon Johnson was  Antgulilbix family, and I think Mary Johnson and Moses  are sort of a close relation, and I think that's when  Mary Johnson did that without Moses permission.  And when you say Moses, you're speaking about Moses  Morrison?  Yes.  And are you saying that Mary Johnson adopted Gordon  into the House of Gitludahl?  Yes.  And Gordon Johnson's using the name of the House 6345  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 of Gitludahl.  2 Q   And Mary Johnson's chief's name was Angulilbix?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   That's number 1 on the plaintiff's list.  And you said  5 that Mary Johnson, Antgulilbix, and Moses Johnson were  6 close?  7 A   Close.  So also Gutginuxw is close to Moses and  8 also --  9 Q   Gutginuxw is number 14 on the plaintiff's list.  So  10 people outside the House of Gitludahl could adopt  11 persons into the House of Gitludahl?  12 A   It's in here.  13 Q   I'm sorry.  People outside Gitludahl, that is Mary  14 Johnson, could adopt persons into the House of  15 Gitludahl?  16 A  Well, they could do that only as the Gitludahl could  17 do that, but otherwise you can't do that.  18 Q   But Mary didn't ask?  19 A   No.  20 Q   Did she?  21 A   No.  22 THE COURT:  Are you saying, Mr. Mackenzie, and is the witness  23 agreeing with you that Mary Johnson adopted Gordon  24 Johnson into her house?  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, my Lord.  26 THE COURT:  Well, I'm sorry.  I thought that's what you asked  27 the witness.  I'm not sure whether he agreed.  Perhaps  28 you better straighten that out for me then, please.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  30 Q   Mary Johnson adopted Gordon Johnson into Gitludahl,  31 correct?  32 A   Yes.  33 THE COURT:  All right, I have that now.  I don't understand it,  34 but —  35 A   The way it go about that, in the feast house Mary  36 Johnson and Gitludahl and Waiget and Wiigyet, they all  37 working together.  38 THE COURT:  Just a minute, please.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  40 Q   Just, yes, I just want to get the differences in  41 there.  You said Waiget, W-a-i-g-e-t, Wiigyet,  42 W-i-i-g-y-e-t?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And they're all close?  45 A They're all close, yes.  4 6 Q And then what happened?  47 A  And all Fireweed. 6346  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q All Fireweed?  2 A All Fireweed clan, and so is Gutginuxw.  3 Q And Gutginuxw, number 14 on the Plaintiff's list, is  4 also Fireweed clan?  5 A Yes.  6 Q And all the members of the Fireweed clan were close  7 together?  8 A Yes.  9 Q And they could adopt people into different houses?  10 A Yes.  11 Q They could adopt people into other houses?  12 A Well, they could do that if they wanted to.  13 Q Yes.  So it's the Fireweed clan that's important to  14 those people?  15 A Yes.  16 Q Yes.  And Gordon Johnson, as is indicated on Exhibit  17 474, still is a member of Gitludahl?  18 A Yes.  He's a member of the Gitludahl House now.  19 Q All right.  Violet Johnson, when was she adopted?  20 A I believe Moses adopted her into her -- his house,  21 Moses Morrison.  22 Q When would that be?  23 A That's ever since she was small, I think.  24 Q She was born in 1947?  25 A Yes.  26 Q You think that she was adopted in the late 1940's?  27 A Somewhere in there.  28 Q Um-hum.  Mr. Muldoe, I have another genealogy of  29 Wiigyet's, W-i-i-g-y-e-t, to show you, and it's at tab  30 1 of the volume 1 of the document book.  And this  31 genealogy is dated January 18, 1988?  32 A Um-hum.  33 Q Now, I am not clear when -- speaking to his Lordship,  34 I am not clear at the present time whether that was  35 the date that that genealogy was received by us or  36 whether it was an undated genealogy which we received,  37 but I am instructed that this genealogy at tab 1 was  38 provided in preparation for Alfred Michelle's  39 testimony.  Do you know Alfred Michelle; do you know  40 Alfred Michelle?  41 A Yes.  42 Q He's a member of the House of Wiigyet?  43 A Yes.  44 Q Is he a member of the House of Gitludahl?  45 A Yes.  46 Q And is he a member of the House of Wii seeks?  47 A Yes. 6347  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   But his name doesn't appear on the Gitludahl  2 genealogy, does it?  3 A   I think AI Michelle is on Wiigyet's genealogy.  4 Q   But he's not on Exhibit 474, the Gitludahl genealogy,  5 is he?  6 A   No.  7 Q   Is he?  No, he's not on that genealogy, is he?  8 A   Not on Gitludahl, no.  9 Q   No.  When did you first see the genealogy, Exhibit  10 475?  That's Wiigyet, W-i-i-g-y-e-t?  11 A   That's -- we had this before, but it didn't make --  12 made me redo it again.  13 Q   So Heather Harris prepared this and you looked over  14 it, right?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Yes.  When's the first time you saw this Exhibit 475?  17 A   I think not too far back when -- it's not too far back  18 until they start getting this all together.  19 Q   This year, 1988?  20 A   No.  It's before that, 1986, somewhere around that  21 when they started.  I think it's '86 when they first  22 started, but they work right through to 1988.  23 Q   So Heather Harris did the research, as far as you're  24 concerned?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And then she came to discuss it with you?  27 A   Yes.  28 THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Mackenzie, are you saying that tab 1 is  29 the same as Exhibit 475?  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, my Lord.  I've had Exhibit 475 before — I'm  31 sorry, my Lord, the transcript doesn't show that I  32 took Exhibit 475 from the Plaintiff's document book,  33 tab 5, and I had it before the witness as we've been  34 talking.  35 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  And now I'm going to direct his attention to the  37 other genealogy.  38 THE COURT:  All right.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  Which is at tab 1 of the defendant's document  40 book.  So we have both genealogies, my Lord.  41 THE COURT:  Yes.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  43 Q   So, Mr. Muldoe, I guess what you're saying is that  44 there were several drafts before you came to the last  45 one, Exhibit 475?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Is that right? 634?  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Yes.  I'm referring to this genealogy which is at tab  3 1.  I guess -- is there any way that you would know  4 whether this was one of the drafts or the previous  5 versions of --  6 A   Yeah.  I believe this was the first one that I saw.  7 Q   The witness is referring to page 1 of this genealogy  8 at tab 1, and he's saying it looks like -- I think you  9 said it looks like the first one you saw?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Well, I'm going to ask you to look at page 10 of the  12 genealogy at tab 1 and to look at page 10 of the  13 genealogy, Exhibit 475.  And I'm just showing you that  14 here.  And now I'm -- I just want to draw your  15 attention to some differences between the two  16 genealogies, or apparent differences.  In page 10 of  17 Exhibit 475 Simon Morrison is shown as being married  18 to Kathleen Russell, correct?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   And on page 10 of the genealogy at tab 1 that's not  21 shown, is it?  22 A   Yes.  Well, this one here is not shown on here.  23 Q   Yes.  And on -- let me just see this tab.  On page 10  24 of Exhibit 475 Simon Morrison has a sister, Mary  25 Morrison.  Do you see this?  I'm going to show you  26 Exhibit 475 at page 10 and show you Simon Morrison has  27 a sister, Mary Morrison; do you see that?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Yes.  And look at -- look at page 10 of tab 1.  30 There's a woman shown there as Morrison, but there's  31 no indication that that --  32 A   No.  33 Q   Who her name is, right.  So those are some changes  34 that are shown on there?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And also if you go down under -- on page 475 you can  37 see that Mary Morrison is shown as married to Joe  38 Wilson; you see that?  On page -- on Exhibit 475, Mary  39 Morrison is married to -- okay.  Well, I won't --  40 there are some other differences in there, but I won't  41 go over them in detail, you haven't had a chance to  42 look at it.  My Lord, it's difficult to know whether  43 the witness has identified this document at tab 1.  He  44 did look at the first page and say it appeared to be  45 one of the first versions that he had seen, and I  46 haven't taken him through some of the other  47 differences between the two genealogies that I'm 6349  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  instructed exist, but --  THE COURT:  Well —  MR. MACKENZIE:  Perhaps we should mark it for identification, if  that's acceptable?  THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  MR. RUSH:  Well, he's identified the first page.  THE COURT:  Well —  MR. RUSH:  Seems to me.  THE COURT:  We'll take the adjournment and let him look at it.  MR. RUSH:  Okay.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will recess.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 2:55)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein transcribed to the  best of my skill and ability  Graham D. Parker  Official Reporter  United Reporting Service Ltd.  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 3:15 p.m.) 6350  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  3 MR. RUSH:  My Lord, before my friend gets underway, I am just  4 referring you to the genealogy that was at his tab 1,  5 his black book, and we've made an investigation of  6 this -- or I checked with Ms. Mandell who was leading  7 the evidence of Alfred Mitchell, and there was no date  8 on the copy that we delivered to my learned friends.  9 So if there was a date put on, it was put on by his  10 office.  I don't know what the date was that was -- it  11 was delivered, but I think it was delivered sometime  12 in and around that period.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord, I think that that's probably what  14 happened, and that's the date I think that we received  15 this genealogy at tab 1.  16 THE COURT:  All right.  What do you want to do with this  17 document at tab 1?  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  19 Q   Well, My Lord, I would like to just finish up with  20 that if I could, by asking Mr. Muldoe.  21 Mr. Muldoe, you've had a chance to look over the  22 document at tab 1 and discuss it with Miss Sampson and  23 Miss Howard, and can you agree that this document at  24 tab 1 shows -- is one of the versions of Wiigyet's  25 genealogy?  Did you get my question?  26 A   Yeah.  Yes.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yeah.  Well, My Lord, I just submit that as the  28 next exhibit.  2 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  30 THE REGISTRAR:  Next exhibit?  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  32 THE REGISTRAR:  494.  33  34 (EXHIBIT 494 - Genealogy of Wiigyet)  35  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  37 Q   So Mr. Muldoe, can you agree with me that the research  38 is still going on on the genealogies?  39 A   Yes, it is.  40 Q   Yes.  So there may be new information that will come  41 to light?  42 A   Yes.  Well, a lot of these things I don't know  43 anything about it, like way back during the First  44 World War and all that, but the latest one I know all  45 about them.  46 Q   Yes, thank you.  Well, Mr. Morrison, I would like to  47 ask you -- 6351  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. RUSH: Mr. Muldoe.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  3 Q Sorry, Mr. Muldoe, I beg your pardon.  I would like to  4 ask you a bit about your personal history and the work  5 that you've done over the years.  I think it's fair to  6 say that you've worked hard all your life?  7 A Oh, yes.  8 Q Yes.  And you've worked as a trapper?  9 A Worked as a trapper.  10 Q And you've worked --  11 A Fishing.  12 Q -- in the logging industry?  13 A Logging.  14 Q And in the fishing industry?  15 A Fishing.  Carpenter.  16 Q And carpentry?  17 A Yes.  18 Q All right.  And while you were involved in the forest  19 industry as you testified, you had logging operations  20 through several years near Kispiox Village?  21 A Yes.  22 Q Yes.  And you had a couple of mills?  23 A One mill.  24 Q You had one mill?  2 5 A Yup.  26 Q And over the years from 19 — 1940's to the 1960's,  27 you had timber sale contracts with the Provincial  2 8 Government?  29 A Yes.  30 Q And you arranged or made arrangements to cut the  31 timber from those lands?  32 A Yes.  33 Q Yes.  And you also received permits for your mill from  34 the government?  35 A No, I don't think so.  36 Q Well, you received permission?  37 A When you're --  38 Q Sorry?  39 A When you apply for timber sale you have rights to set  40 your mill there without any permits or anything like  41 that.  42 Q Well, I'll show you some permits, but you'll agree  43 with me that you applied to the Provincial Government  44 for permission to locate your mill on the site?  45 A Yes.  46 Q Yes.  And during that time you also purchased some  47 property outside the reserve? 6352  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A Yes.  2 Q And how big is that?  3 A Approximately about a hundred and sixty acres.  4 Q About 160 acres.  And that's across the Kispiox River,  5 that's on the west side, correct?  6 A Yes.  About three miles from the Kispiox Village.  7 Q And you bought that land from Charlie Sterritt?  8 A Yes.  9 Q You bought that land about 1944?  10 A Sometime in there.  11 Q And you've raised hay on that land?  12 A Yes.  13 Q And you've also raised some cattle?  14 A Yes.  15 Q And in the past, of course, in connection with your  16 logging activity, you had -- you had a skidder?  17 A Yes.  18 Q And a Cat?  19 A Cats.  20 Q And you also have had other machinery which you need  21 to go trapping.  I take it you have a four-wheel drive  22 pick-up?  23 A I always have a four-wheel drive pick-up.  24 Q Yes.  And you have a ski-doo?  25 A Last few years I have a ski-doo.  2 6 Q Yeah.  27 A An old one.  28 Q Yes.  You and your sons used that ski-doo to get into  29 the cabin at Gwinageese, correct?  30 A Yes.  31 Q And the other people in the Kispiox Valley outside the  32 reserve, I'm saying the farmers such as Bill Love, you  33 know him, don't you?  34 A I know Bill Love.  35 Q And you said that -- in fact, you said one mountain  36 near there is called Love Mountain?  37 A Called Love Mountain, yes.  38 Q Because Bill has a farm up there, doesn't he?  39 A Yes.  Bill Love has a farm there and his father has a  40 farm up there and his brother-in-law has a farm in  41 there.  And then Hagen, all of them have a farm up  42 there, quite a few of those Hagens, but now they've  43 been sold, all this farm to other people, so I  44 wouldn't know who lives there now.  45 Q But you certainly know Bill Love, he's been there  46 since -- his whole life, hasn't he?  47 A Yes, his whole life. 6353  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q And do you know his wife, Lillian Love?  2 A Yes.  3 Q And in fact, you have good relationships with them,  4 don't you?  5 A Oh, yes.  6 Q You've been to visit them?  7 A Yes.  8 Q And you can agree with me that they are very hard-  9 working people?  10 A Yeah.  11 Q Bill Love is a guide outfitter, isn't he?  12 A Pardon?  13 Q He does guiding?  14 A Yeah, they in the guiding outfit.  Him and his  15 brother-in-law, Jack Lee.  16 Q Yeah, Jack Lee, that's right.  You visited Bill Love's  17 home on different occasions?  18 A Yes.  Just once sometime -- once in a while.  19 Q Once in a while?  2 0 A Yeah.  21 Q And will you agree with me that many people from  22 Kispiox are friendly with Bill and Lillian Love?  23 A Well, just about every people in the village that know  24 him, some of the older people that knows them.  25 Q He grew up with several of the older people in the  26 village?  27 A Yes.  2 8 Q And you also know Helen Campbell, don't you?  29 A Yes.  30 Q She has a farm, doesn't she?  31 A Yes, she has a farm, yes.  32 Q And her husband's name is Ted Campbell, isn't it?  33 A Yeah.  34 Q And they've had that farm since 1928, haven't they?  35 A '28?  They might have had it before that.  There is a  36 lot of farmers in there before, way before '28.  37 Q Yeah.  But can you agree with me that you get along  38 pretty well with Helen Campbell?  39 A We don't -- I know her but we don't visit her that  4 0 much.  41 Q Yes.  And you also know another rancher up in the  42 Kispiox Valley, Marty Allen; do you know him?  43 A Yeah.  Marty Allen come in not too long ago, the place  44 where he is at there has been George Beirnes.  45 Q Yes.  George Beirnes, that's B-e-i-r-n-e-s.  Marty  46 Allen came in about 1948, correct?  47 A Sometime around there.  I don't know just what year 6354  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 when they came in there.  2 Q   He does a lot of trapping up on the telegraph line,  3 doesn't he?  4 A   I don't know if he ever trapped up in the telegraph  5 line.  I never did see him up there all the time I was  6 up there.  7 Q   Yes.  You know --  8 A   But as far as I know -- as far as I know, he has been  9 somewhere -- the Game Department make him register  10 over Gwiiyeehl's territory and that goes right through  11 to Kliiyem lax haa's territory, right down to 17 mile  12 and right up to first cabin.  13 Q   Just a minute, we'll get the names of those chiefs.  14 Gwiiyeehl is number 19 on the plaintiffs' list, and of  15 course Kliiyem lax haa is number 35 on the plaintiffs'  16 list.  So Marty Allen has a trapline up there in the  17 Kispiox Valley?  18 A  Well, he claim all that supposed to be his.  19 Q   Oh, I see.  20 A  What's on Kliiyem lax haa's territory and on  21 Gwiiyeehl's territory.  22 Q   Yes.  And you know Marty Allen's wife, Dorothy?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And she has been there all her life, hasn't she?  25 A   Yes, she is.  She's born there, I think.  26 Q   She is Bill Love's sister?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Yes.  And your sons are hard workers too, aren't they?  2 9 A   Um-hmm.  30 Q   George is a hard worker?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   He is the chief counsellor at the Kispiox Band, isn't  33 he?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And he also has some private land outside the reserve,  36 doesn't he?  37 A   I have -- I have a piece of land on the reserve  38 that -- and I pass it on to George.  39 Q   Oh, yes.  And you are not aware of any land outside  40 the reserve that George owns?  41 A   No.  42 Q   No, okay.  George has a contracting business?  43 A  Well, the only thing that I know that contract -- the  44 company will apply for part of the timber to work on  45 it.  46 Q   Oh yes.  Now just --  47 A   Not on his own. 6355  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q I'm sorry.  I just wanted to ask you whether George is  2 busy also with his own business?  3 A Not really, except he owns his own Cat.  4 Q He has a Cat?  5 A Yes.  6 Q Yes.  And Ken, Ken is a hard worker too, isn't he?  7 A Um-hmm.  8 Q He is a member of the tribal council?  9 A Yeah.  10 Q And he has also got some private land outside the  11 reserve?  12 A Yes.  13 Q And he is the person who's -- his name is Delgamuukw,  14 isn't it?  15 A Yeah.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  I think Your Lordship has the spelling of  17 that one.  18 THE COURT:  Yes, I've heard it before.  19 THE WITNESS:  Getting pretty familiar with Delgamuukw.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  21 Q Yes.  In fact, talking about Delgamuukw, former  22 Delgamuukw was Albert Tait, wasn't it?  23 A Yes.  24 Q And he really was the -- one of the principal people  25 who advised you about all of these territories, isn't  26 he, and he is mentioned in every paragraph of your  27 affidavit?  28 A Yes.  29 Q Yes.  Now Ken Muldoe is the person who has the  30 registered trapline up at Gwinageese, correct?  31 A Yes.  32 Q Yes.  33 A Well, Albert passed Delgamuukw territory on to them  34 before he even passed away, because Albert was getting  35 old and he can't get out anymore so he passed it on  36 to -- not only to Ken Muldoe but to all -- to the rest  37 of the brothers and the sisters as well.  38 Q Another one of your sons is Earl Muldoe?  39 A Yes.  40 Q And he is a carver?  41 A Carver.  42 Q He has some land outside the reserve also, doesn't he?  43 A It's just in the village of Hazelton, I think he has a  44 house there.  45 Q Yes.  46 A But I thinking -- I don't know just how they work this  47 thing, and I think that Hazelton is just a lease land 6356  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  31  Q  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  MR. RUSH:  41  42  THE COURT  43  44  45  46  47  from the Indian Department or something like that, and  that's where he have his house.  Yes.  Well perhaps we can look at that.  Elsie  Morrison is your sister, correct?  Yes.  And her name was Waiget W-a-i-g-e-t?  Yes.  Yes.  And her husband's name was Steve?  Steven Morrison.  And his chief's name was Wii elaast?  Wii elaast.  E-1-a-a-s-t.  Now, Elsie also owns some property  outside the reserve, doesn't she?  Yes.  Steve had a property.  But when -- before he  died I think he transferred it to Elsie also, and when  he passed on Elsie is entitled to all the place.  And do you know that Steve actually had an  agricultural lease on that property for many years and  he paid money each year?  Yes.  Yes.  And then finally he was able to buy it, correct,  or Elsie was able to buy it?  Yes.  She bought it from the government, right?  Pardon?  Elsie bought it from the government?  Steven bought it from the government.  And then he passed it on to Elsie?  Passed on to Elsie.  But I don't know how they get it,  but that's the way it is.  Yeah.  So would you agree with me that the people such  as you and your family and the farmers in the Kispiox  Valley are all hard-working people?  That's a general  question.  The people -- you and your family and the  farmers we've talked about are hard-working people?  Well, just about everybody is a hard-working people.  Yes.  And there are opportunities for people to  succeed in the Kispiox Valley if they work as hard as  you did?  Is that a proper question, My Lord?  How is it going  to help you resolve anything in the case?  :  Well, I don't think that that question could.  The  only questions -- I don't know whether it's going to  lead to something or lead into something that is --  that is useful, and I think with the usual latitude  that's been given both sides I won't stop the  cross-examination at this point.  I wouldn't want it 6357  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 to go much further without getting very much more  2 specific.  3 MR. RUSH:  My Lord, I suppose if my friend had said, "If you had  4 a million dollars," that could lead to greater success  5 as well, perhaps a magic wand.  6 THE COURT:  Can you buy a magic wand for a million?  7 MR. RUSH:  Some places they are a little cheaper than that.  8 THE COURT:  I think we will quickly get onto something else,  9 won't we, Mr. Mackenzie?  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord.  11 THE COURT:  Yes.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  13 Q   Well, because -- I'm going to ask you a question.  14 Because of your hard work you've had opportunities in  15 the Kispiox Valley, haven't you?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And when you were engaged in your -- when you were  18 engaged in your logging operations, can you agree with  19 me that you paid stumpage fees to the Provincial  2 0 Government?  21 A   Yes.  We paid stumpage and a royalty to the Provincial  22 Government.  23 Q   Now in your -- you are still trapping, you've been  24 trapping every year for a long time?  25 A  Well, I trap and -- whenever I get a chance I go out  2 6 and trap.  27 Q   And you sell your furs sometimes to the Hudson Bay  2 8 Company?  29 A  Mostly in the early days we sell to the Hudson Bay  30 Company, but most of the time we ship it out into  31 Vancouver here, Ontario Trappers Association, thing  32 like that.  33 Q   You used to sell -- you've sold it on some occasions  34 to the Hudson Bay Company in Hazelton?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Yes.  And now you send it to the Vancouver Fur Buyers?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Yeah.  And can you agree with me that when the furs go  39 out of British Columbia they pay a royalty to the  4 0 government?  41 A   Yes, we pay the royalty.  42 Q   Yes.  You were speaking about your neighbour.  Was  43 it -- was it Chris Skulsh who was your neighbour?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And you said he used to work at the mill?  46 A   Yes, he worked at the mill.  47 Q   And was that the mill Westar? 635?  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A Pardon?  2 Q Which mill would that be?  Which mill did he work at?  3 A He -- did you say that Chris Skulsh worked for me?  4 Q No.  Did he work at another mill before he retired,  5 Chris Skulsh?  6 A I don't know where he works but I know he is -- he did  7 work on his own and trucking.  8 Q Yes.  He is working in trucking?  9 A Yes.  10 Q You spoke about another one of your neighbours who,  11 after he -- who retired from working at the mill, do  12 you remember that, Mr. Jacobson?  13 A Jacobson?  I don't know.  I haven't met anybody by the  14 name of Jacobson.  15 Q Well, can you agree with me that there are several  16 people from -- members of the reserve who work at the  17 mills?  18 A There is quite -- quite a few of them, mostly all the  19 people from the reserves works for a mill and me, with  2 0 me.  21 Q Oh, they worked with you when you were logging?  22 A Yes, when I was logging.  23 Q What about now, do they work down at Westar?  24 A They -- most -- some work at the Westar.  25 Q And a lot of them go down to the commercial fishery?  26 A Yes.  27 Q Do you get into Hazelton very often, Mr. Muldoe?  28 A Do I ever get into Hazelton?  29 Q Do you go into Hazelton to get your supplies?  30 A Just about pretty near every day.  Get my mail.  31 Q Get your mail and you buy your food at the supermarket  32 in Hazelton?  33 A Yes.  34 Q Yes.  You buy some fresh fruit there?  35 A Yes.  3 6 Q And meat?  37 A Well, sometimes we buy a little meat, but mostly we  38 always put up our own.  39 Q Yes.  Did you ever go out to the restaurants in  40 Hazelton?  41 A Not very often.  42 Q Not very often.  When you have medical problems, I  43 take it you go down to the hospital, the Wrinch  44 Hospital outside of Hazelton?  45 A Yeah, sometimes, but I don't go to hospitals too often  46 myself.  47 Q Well, were your children born in hospital? 6359  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19    ]  MR. RUSH  20    ]  MR. mack:  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Q  No, not that I know.  Just the wife sometimes goes in  there, but me, I don't go into the hospital.  Maybe  once every five years, maybe more.  What about your children, were they born there in the  hospital?  Yes.  Yes.  You are receiving a pension now, Mr. Muldoe, are  you?  You have a pension now?  Yes.  Yes.  And your wife, Lottie, has a pension?  Yes.  Mr. Muldoe, on the Kispiox Reserve there is a small  restaurant, isn't there?  Yeah, just started last year.  Across from the band administration office?  Yes.  And they have hamburgers and coffee there?  I think so, because I don't go there.  Are there any french fries?  JZIE:  Any french fries?  I don't believe -- and I believe they have some ice  cream there too.  Okay.  Now just talking about the reserve for a  minute, Mr. Muldoe, the highway from Hazelton comes up  and crosses the Kispiox River and goes through the  reserve, doesn't it?  Yes.  And then it continues up north of the reserve, doesn't  it?  Yes.  It goes right through -- goes through about the  middle of the reserve.  Yes, goes through the middle of the reserve.  And on  the reserve there is a United Church?  Yes.  And a Pentecostal Church.  Pentecostal Church.  And you have a big salmon enhancement programme going  on there?  Yes.  Fish hatchery?  Fish hatchery.  Yes.  And now you can take the roads -- you can take  the logging roads all the way to Mitten Lake, can't  you?  Yes.  And the logging roads also go to your territory at 6360  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Twin Lake, don't they?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And you usually drive along the road to get to your  4 cabin?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   Yes.  Now there is a road from your territory that  7 goes over to Highway 37, isn't there?  8 A   The Kispiox Highway is Highway 37, isn't it?  9 Q   No.  The highway at Kitwanga, north of Kitwanga.  Do  10 you know about the road that joins over there now?  11 A   No, it doesn't go through Kispiox, it goes through --  12 up along the Kitwanga Valley and Kitwancool Valley  13 there.  14 Q   Yes.  I'm saying from your Twin Lakes there is a road  15 that now goes over to the Kitwancool Valley?  16 A   Yeah.  The one they call the Kit — Mitten Main, that  17 goes right across to --  18 Q   Yes.  19 A   Right across the -- that goes right through to  20 Gitludahl's territory and part of Geel's territory,  21 and that goes right on beyond somewhere along Grease  22 Trail and goes into Cranberry.  23 Q   Yes.  To Cranberry River Valley?  24 A   Cranberry River and then it connects with Highway 37.  25 Q   Yes.  And there is a road now also that you can go up  26 Highway 37 to take the road to Gwinageese now, can't  27 you?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Yes.  And that's the road you usually use now when you  30 go to Gwinageese; is that right?  31 A   Sometimes.  But sometimes you can't get through there.  32 Q   Oh, yes.  33 A   Too many loggers going through there.  34 Q   Yes.  Now you mentioned that -- we were talking about  35 the Kispiox Reserve and I take it you are aware that  36 the Kispiox Band has a wood-lot licence from the  37 Provincial Government?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Yes.  And are you aware that the band logs provincial  40 lands and also has the lands on the reserve as part of  41 the licence; do you know that?  42 MR. RUSH:  My Lord, maybe that question can be broken up.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  44 Q   Yeah, I'll rephrase that question.  You are aware as  45 part of that wood-lot licence, the band is logging on  46 the land across the Kispiox River near Date Creek --  47 or Dale Creek? 6361  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A They apply for partial land there to log that, I  2 think, but they apply just for the whole band not for  3 just their own.  4 Q Yes, for the band?  5 A So everybody they can work there.  6 Q Yes.  7 A That's why -- I think that's the only reason why they  8 apply there first.  9 Q Yes.  10 A Put some people to work.  11 Q And they got a wood-lot licence from the Provincial  12 Government for that --  13 A Yes.  14 Q -- didn't they?  Yes.  Mr. Muldoe, did you -- you knew  15 Fritz Harris, didn't you?  You know Fritz Harris,  16 don't you?  17 A Yes.  18 Q He used to have the name Luus, correct?  19 A Yes.  20 Q L-u-u-s.  And you are aware that he had some private  21 land outside the reserve down south of Kispiox?  22 A Chris Harris?  23 Q Fritz Harris?  24 A Fritz?  25 Q Yeah?  26 A That's -- I think he did have a partial land right  27 across from the Glen Vowell.  That's way back in --  28 sometime in the 19 -- before 19 -- before the war,  2 9 anyway.  30 Q Yes.  31 A So I don't know about that too much.  32 Q Do you recall that he got a pre-emption or a Crown  33 grant for that land?  34 A I don't know how he got it.  35 Q Okay.  And do you know John Johnson?  36 A John Johnson?  37 Q You know Jonathon Johnson?  38 A I know Jonathon Johnson.  39 Q Yes.  Did he have some private land up in Gwiiyeehl's  40 territory?  41 A Gwiiyeehl's territory?  42 Q Yes?  43 A Well Jonathon Johnson, he used to have a -- just a  44 trapping territory up at -- up at Sgan Sna'at.  45 Q Okay.  Now I just want to ask you about the reserves  46 and I'll just refer you --  47 MR. RUSH: Spelling for that last? 6362  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  Sorry, beg your pardon.  Sorry, Sgan Sna'at, is  2 that what you said?  3 A   Sgan Sna'at, yeah.  4 THE TRANSLATOR:  S-g-a-n space S-n-a stop a-t.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm referring to tab 24 of the document book, My  6 Lord, that's a Petition of Right which is Exhibit 26,  7 and specifically referring to schedule D which is  8 attached to that exhibit.  Schedule D is Exhibit 26A,  9 My Lord, that's a map entitled --  10 THE COURT:  There are two maps in mine.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord.  But schedule D is the Upper  12 Skeena fishing grounds.  13 THE COURT:  One minute.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  Does Your Lordship have that Exhibit 26A?  I'm  15 not -- I'm going to ask you about the reserves on this  16 map, Mr. Muldoe.  17 THE COURT:  What is 26A, please?  Is 26A schedule D?  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord.  19 THE COURT:  Thank you.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  21 Q   I'm now referring to that schedule D, My Lord.  22 Now Mr. Muldoe, there are several Kispiox  23 Reserves, aren't there?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And looking at schedule D, we'll start at Kispiox  26 Indian Reserve number one.  That's the village, isn't  27 it?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   And that's where you live, correct?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And then just north of Kispiox Indian Reserve number  32 one there is Agwidin --  33 A  Agwidin.  34 Q   -- Indian Reserve number three, A-g-w-e-d-i-n.  Does  35 your Lordship have that reference?  36 THE COURT:  You are looking north of there at Andax?  37 MR. MACKENZIE:   Agwidin, My Lord.  My Lord, I was referring to  38 Kispiox Reserve number one at the junction of the  39 Kispiox and Skeena rivers.  40 THE COURT:  Yes, sorry.  Yes.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  And then just north of that, My Lord, is  42 Agwidin.  4 3 THE COURT:  Yes.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  And then moving up the Skeena River —  45 THE COURT:  That's number three, is it?  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  47 Q   Yes, My Lord. 6363  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Moving up the Skeena River -- and we are still  2 looking at Exhibit 26A, schedule D, and the next one  3 is Indian reserve number four, is that correct, Mr. --  4 and that's Gwanks Sim Xsi Mihl Mihl.  Do you know that  5 one?  6 A   Yes, it's a fishing -- fishing hole at Gwanks Sim Xsi  7 Mihl Mihl.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  Okay, we better get that.  That's Indian reserve  9 number four, and we'll get the spelling -- the  10 spelling is actually on schedule D.  Does Your  11 Lordship have that reference?  12 THE COURT:  Yes, but I can't read it.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well I'll read the reference from schedule D.  14 THE TRANSLATOR:  It's 1517.  15 THE COURT:  1517?  That's good enough, thank you.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  17 Q   And then moving up the -- moving up the river to the  18 next reserve, that's Gwin Lax T'sal Indian Reserve  19 number five; is that correct?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And then moving up the river on the east side we have  22 Xsi 'din, number six.  There are two or three  23 locations there, correct?  24 MR. RUSH:  Well, which?  25 A   Yes.  26 MR. RUSH:  Which?  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  East side of the river, sorry.  Xsi 'din, number  28 six, have you got that?  Does Your Lordship have that?  29 THE COURT:  Yes.  But is there another one south of that on the  30 east side of the Skeena?  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord, there are some on the east side of  32 the Skeena, but they go in numerical order and I was  33 just going to go up the --  34 THE COURT:  Well, isn't number five south of number six?  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  We were at number -- we were at number  36 five, My Lord, which was Gwin Lax T'sal.  37 THE COURT:  Yes.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  And then moving up the river, My Lord, moving up  39 the river you come to -- staying on the east side of  4 0 the river you come up to Xsi 'din.  41 THE COURT:  What is the number below that?  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  And that's Indian reserve six.  43 THE COURT:  What's the next one further north?  It says Xsi 'din  44 number six as well.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord, there are several — there are  46 three lots there.  47 THE COURT:  And they are all number six? 6364  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, they are all Xsi 'din, number six.  2 THE COURT:  Yes.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, going over to the west side of the river we  4 have Indian reserve number seven, Kis an usko.  Let's  5 read that on my map here.  Can you see that, Kis an  6 usko, K-i-s dash a-n dash u-s-k-o.  7 THE INTERPRETER:  That's not in our language.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  9 Q   Okay.  But that's Indian reserve number seven, do you  10 know that one?  11 A   Yes, I know there is quite a few reserve all along  12 there and there is quite a few fishing site in there,  13 but most of them they are not listed on this thing  14 here.  15 Q   No.  You -- this is just listing -- I'm just referring  16 to the reserves on this list.  Let's go right up to  17 the top and you have Waulp, don't you, W-a-u-1-p,  18 Indian reserve number ten?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   And you know that's an Indian reserve?  21 A   Yes.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  And coming back down the river on the — does  23 Your Lordship have that reference?  2 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  26 Q   Coming back down the river, the Skeena River on the  27 west side we have Andax, A-n-d-a-k, Indian Reserve  28 number nine.  Andax, do you see that?  You know that  29 one too, don't you?  30 A   I know, but who owns that?  31 Q   I'm just asking you, that's where the reserve is,  32 isn't it?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   Yes.  It's a little difficult to see them on this  35 Exhibit 26A, My Lord.  I'm going to use -- refer to  36 another exhibit where the maps are a little more  37 easily read.  But just to finish off this line of  38 discussion, coming down the river on the west side  39 from Andax Indian Reserve number nine, we come to Gal  40 mak' G-u-1-m-a-k Indian Reserve number eight.  41 A   Gal mak'.  42 Q   Gal mak'.  And you know that one too, don't you?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   Now My Lord, those reserves which --  45 A   Gal mak', Gal mak'  46 Q   Now, My Lord —  47 A   I think they missed one there some place but the 6365  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  government claimed there's no reserve there, but the  people that had a smokehouse there and we been in  there all our lifetime, it's the one they call An ax  biisxw.  Q   An ax biisxw.  You mention that, that was Fritz  Harris?  A   That was Delgamuukw's.  Q   Delgamuukw's , yes.  MACKENZIE:  My Lord, the witness has identified these  reserves going up the river on Exhibit 26A, but just  for your -- for all our eyes, at tab 26 I put a -- of  the document book I've put a map, Provincial  Government map -- or sorry, federal map of the area  showing the reserves and it's much easier to read that  map, but they are the same locations as you go up the  river.  And My Lord, I have certified copies of the plans  of those reserves and I wish to submit those, the  certified copies of the plans as exhibits.  And I  wonder if, My Lord, we could reserve a number for  those certified copies and the plans of the various  reserves could be entered as subletters of that  exhibit number.  Any problem with that, Mr. Rush?  Well, yes.  You will recall that this method of  introducing exhibits was used by my friend, I believe  it was in Mr. Morrison's testimony, and I indicated  that while I could -- I could not object to the fact  that we have a certification, I don't think that that  speaks to the accuracy of the lines on the map or the  accuracy or reliability of the content of the words  that are on the map.  And I think until there is some  evidence called with respect to the content that's  contained in those certified copies, that Your  Lordship cannot take it anymore than that this  document was housed in the Land Registry office.  You don't think that a certification carries the  burden far enough to regard as proof before we rely  upon it?  RUSH:  No, I don't.  MACKENZIE:  My Lord, if I may read from Section 308 of the  Land Title Act or hand it up to Your Lordship.  It  says :  "A certificate furnished by the Registrar shall be  receivable in all courts in the province as proof  of the facts set out in the certificate, the  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR.  MR. 6366  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  contents of the register or records of which it  purports to be an abstract or extract or the  instrument of which it purports to be a copy,  without proof of the signature, seal or official  position of the Registrar."  And those certified copies appear in my document  book at tab 20, 21 and 22.  THE COURT:  All right.  Well, is it necessary that we settle  this point now, Mr. Rush?  MR. RUSH:  Well, it isn't necessary, but I take considerable  issue with that.  The Provincial Government, in my  submission, is not purporting to say that what it  keeps in its Land Registry office is true for all  aspects of what it contains.  I'm sure that they  wouldn't say that these -- these maps contain -- where  it shows the Kispiox boundary -- or purportedly shows  the Kispiox boundary, contains the riverbed to the  rivers that are said to be contained within these  maps.  Even they wouldn't say that.  Whether it was  approved in August the 5th, 1902, and whose signature  that is and who Mr. Powell is, I'm sure these are all  matters for evidence.  THE COURT:  Well, I take it from a very cursory reading of  Section 308 that the certificate is receivable -- I  think that means admissible -- as proof of the  contents of the register or records of which it  purports to be an abstract or extract.  That's -- if  anything's to be proved that is rebuttal, but if there  is nothing in the contrary it seems to me it is proof  of the fact that that's what the register shows and  then would be a matter of law to be examined in  consideration of all the other sections of the act to  determine what that effect has.  MR. RUSH:  Well, yes.  Well maybe the matter should be argued  further at another time, but it might be argued that  what's contained in this map is federal land.  THE COURT:  Well —  MR. RUSH:  It wouldn't be argued by me but somebody might argue  that.  THE COURT:  If it purports to show an Indian reserve I would say  that's a very good possibility that it would be.  MR. RUSH:  And that being so, one might wonder what it's doing  in the Provincial Land Registry office.  And if that's  so, My Lord, one might argue that what it -- my  learned friend says to be a record, or says to be a  register, even though it's in the office, is not such 6367  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 a thing.  I might be inclined to argue that at some  2 future date.  3 THE COURT:  I think it would be a fascinating argument, and it  4 may well be right.  I think I agree with your earlier  5 comment that I don't think it has to be argued now at  6 three seconds to four.  Should we mark them?  I think  7 they are receivable under Section 308 and I'll leave  8 it to counsel to bring it up when they want to.  9 Do you want to mark them now, Mr. Mackenzie,  10 before we adjourn?  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  12 THE COURT:  Where are they?  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, My Lord, they are at — if Your Lordship  14 can see the table of contents there in my document  15 book, the tab 20 is Indian -- is Kispiox Indian  16 Reserve number one and Agwidin Indian Reserve number  17 three.  18 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  And I have the certified copy here, and just —  20 THE COURT:  All right.  Tab 20 will be exhibit —  21 THE REGISTRAR:  495.  22 THE COURT:  4 95.  23 THE REGISTRAR:  Tab 20?  2 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you.  26 THE COURT:  And you have the original, Mr. Mackenzie?  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  2 8 THE COURT:  All right that's the one that should be marked I  29 should think.  30 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 495.  31  32 (EXHIBIT 495 - Tab 20, Certified Map of Indian  33 Reserves Number One and Three)  34  35 THE COURT:  And tab 21 is Exhibit 496?  36 THE REGISTRAR:  Tab 21.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Tab 21 is Gwin Lax T'sal Indian Reserve number  38 five.  39 THE COURT:  And in each case the certificate and the attached  40 map will be the exhibits.  41 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 496.  42  43 (EXHIBIT 496 - Tab 21, Certified Map of Indian Reserve  44 Number Five)  45  4 6 THE COURT:  And tab 22 is Exhibit 4 97.  47 THE REGISTRAR:  497. 636?  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  And tab 22 is Xsi 'din Indian Reserve number  2 six, and then -- I'm not going to pronounce that next  3 one, My Lord, but it's Indian reserve number four, and  4 Indian reserve number seven, Indian reserve number  5 eight, Indian reserve number nine, Indian reserve  6 number ten, they are all together on that plan at tab  7 22.  8 THE COURT:  All right.  That will be Exhibit 497.  9 THE REGISTRAR:  Where is Indian reserve number two?  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  It's not on here, it's Glen Vowell.  Madam  11 Registrar made a good point, My Lord, she said "Where  12 is Indian reserve number two?"  13 THE COURT:  Yes.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well in this numbering, as I'm instructed, the  15 number two was given to Sika doax or Glen Vowell, but  16 I don't think that is a Kispiox Reserve at this time.  17 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you, we'll — just the three of  18 them?  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord.  2 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  21  22 (EXHIBIT 497 - Tab 22, Certified Map of Indian  23 Reserves Number Four, Six, Seven, Eight, Nine, Ten)  24  25 THE COURT:  All right.  We'll adjourn then until ten o'clock  2 6 tomorrow morning.  27 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will stand adjourned  28 until 10:00 a.m. tomorrow morning.  29  30 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:00 p.m.)  31  32 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  33 a true and accurate transcript of the  34 proceedings herein transcribed to the  35 best of my skill and ability.  36  37  38  39  40  41 Toni Kerekes,  42 O.R., R.P.R.  43 United Reporting Service Ltd.  44  45  46  47


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