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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-07-04] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jul 4, 1989

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 17993  Discussion  1 Vancouver, B. C.  2 July 4, 1989.  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, this  5 4th day of July, 1989.  In the matter of Delgamuukw  6 versus her Majesty the Queen at bar, my lord.  7 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant?  8 MR. GRANT:  Good morning, my lord.  Before commencing the  9 evidence of Ms. Wilson-Kenni, I would like to just  10 advise your lordship of the scheduling today, as I  11 understand Mr. Rush gave some estimates of scheduling  12 for this week and there has been some slight  13 variations, but nothing that's going to jeopardize the  14 ultimate scheduled plan that we were hopeful of.  15 This morning, Ms. Dora Wilson-Kenni will give  16 evidence, I would anticipate that her evidence will  17 take the balance of the morning and this afternoon we  18 have scheduled Mr. Lou Skoda, the cartographer, to  19 give evidence and his evidence will take the entire  20 afternoon.  21 Tomorrow morning we have scheduled Mr. Walter  22 Wilson, who will speak to a number of fishing sites on  23 Exhibit 358-22.  The listing of those sites has been  24 provided to my friends.  And tomorrow afternoon we  25 would speak to the amendments to the statement of  26 claim.  We do not anticipate that any of these  27 amendments are going to be problematic in terms of the  28 defendants but in terms of the names of some of the  29 chiefs who are deceased and their replacements and  30 others, we are still finalizing that, so we anticipate  31 they will have the amended statement of claim later  32 today, but nothing we anticipate will be a lengthy  33 argument.  34 Thursday and Friday would be allocated to the -- as  35 much of Friday as is necessary -- to the two principal  36 motions.  The first motion would be the admissibility  37 of historical expert opinion evidence, which I believe  38 your lordship has been dealing with over the last  39 month and a half, the Galois, Morrison, Ray and Lane  40 opinions.  And Friday would be scheduled for the  41 admissibility of documents and the purpose for which  42 those documents can be tendered.  That motion we  43 anticipate will be -- will take some time and one of  44 the -- Ms. Mandell, I understand, is corresponding  45 directly with the other parties with respect to those  46 two motions this morning.  47 THE COURT:  All right. 17994  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR.  THE  MR.  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  There may be some other minor housekeeping matters  to deal with this week.  The question of Mr. -- I  think that's all I should say.  I think that covers  it.  Mr. Rush raised some issue, there may be some  issues at the end of this week may be left  outstanding, but Mr. Rush spoke to that last week.  So there is no reason why your friends for the  provincial defendant can't proceed with their case  next Monday?  No, subject to a few cross-examinations and things  like that.  There is only one witness, a geologist  that Mr. Rush referred to, we won't be calling any  evidence of that this week.  That's the principal  change.  All right.  Do counsel wish to speak to the question  of court hours during vacation -- so-called vacation?  If counsel find it convenient, I am content to sit  the regular hours.  In other long trials that have  continued through vacation, of which there haven't  been a great many, counsel have opted to start early  and a slightly later lunch and start the afternoon and  then adjourn early.  I would like to speak with other counsel about it.  All right.  Thank you.  I would like to call Ms. Dora Wilson-Kenni to the  stand.  DORA WILSON-KENNI, a witness on  behalf of the plaintiffs, after first  being duly sworn, testified as  follows:  THE REGISTRAR:  Would you state your fall name and spell your  last name?  THE WITNESS:   Dora Wilson-Kenni, W-I-L-S-O-N - K-E-N-N-I.  FURTHER EXAMINATION BY MR. GRANT:  MR. GRANT:  My lord.  Q   Ms. Wilson-Kenni, you are chief Yaga'lahl?  A   Yes.  Q   From the House of Spookw?  A   Yes.  Q   And you have given evidence in March of 1988 in this  trial? 17995  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   I would like to provide the first genealogy that I  3 will be tendering to this witness, which will be the  4 genealogy of Samoox.  5 Now, who is the present -- you are giving evidence  6 today with respect to five Wet'suwet'en genealogies?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And the first of these genealogies that I provided to  9 the court is the genealogy of the House of Samoox, are  10 you familiar with that house?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And its Wet'suwet'en name is K'aya?  13 A   K'aya.  14 MR. GRANT: K-'-A-Y-A.  15 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Before my friend goes any further, I don't  16 wish to pre-empt the balance of these genealogies, but  17 at this point I would object, without some basis being  18 laid for this witness to give the evidence of these  19 genealogies, on what basis can she give this evidence?  20 The five genealogies that we have been provided with  21 on Friday afternoon, this witness is not a member of  22 any of those houses.  We have had witnesses who were  23 previously called at this trial who were either the  24 chiefs, as indicated, of these houses or members and  25 lesser chiefs, I might say, with some of these houses.  26 And through this witness, in my submission, the  27 genealogies for all of the purposes for which they  28 have been argued to stand, it would be pure hearsay,  29 coming from this witness.  30 There is no doubt that this witness has some  31 knowledge, which she would glean as a member of the  32 Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en society of what she would have  33 heard, the positions that people hold and so on.  But,  34 in my submission, this evidence should not go in as  35 pure hearsay and it is highly prejudicial to the  36 defence that it should go in in this manner.  In the  37 first place, and perhaps most importantly, the best  38 evidence or the best way this evidence could have been  39 tendered, it has not been.  When we had, for instance,  40 Johnny David was commissioned for many, many days and  41 was in fact called before your lordship in Smithers  42 last winter.  He did give evidence in his commission  43 and he did give evidence which is before this court  44 relating to some of the matters which are dealt with  45 in these genealogies, but no genealogy was produced  46 and no cross-examination therefore is possible as to  47 his knowledge and any variations.  And I might say 17996  Submission by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  there are some, between his evidence, as given at this  trial, and the evidence now shown on these  genealogies.  One of the major issues, my lord, in this trial,  with regard to the Wet'suwet'en, is the longevity of  the house structure.  These genealogies, on their  face, are evidence of house structure.  They speak in  theory to time depth, they speak to the way in which  land is held, they speak to the inheritance lines and  so on.  In my submission, it is one -- it will be one  of the arguments advanced by this defendant, based on  the evidence thusfar, that there is some question  about that longevity, based on such evidence  previously given in this courtroom that chiefs do not  know, frequently, who the other chiefs are in their  houses or what their house name is.  They have a much  stronger affiliation with the concept of clan.  That  will be an argument advanced, that was an issue and it  was cross-examined upon with the experts, and the  basis for the reliability of these genealogies was  cross-examined on whenever we had a witness who had a  genealogy put to them and that witness was the person  with the authority to speak to the house.  We now are  having five genealogies of the Wet'suwet'en people  brought forward for the first time, being put in, I  assume for the truth of the matters there, by a person  who cannot be cross-examined to demonstrate how much  knowledge the chiefs and the other members of that  house have, of the matters contained.  And, in my  submission, it is improper that the hearsay rule be  slid by in this way by my friends when we have had the  opportunity to have the appropriate witness before  this court and this evidence was not put before them.  And I can tell your lordship that there are several  examples that we determined over the weekend, going  through the transcripts, of those witnesses, where  there is a very good argument or it's clear that what  is shown in these genealogies is not consistent with  the sworn evidence before your lordship of the  witnesses who could have spoken to those genealogies.  So, in my submission, these should not go in in  this manner.  Could I ask Mr. Grant whether the other genealogies  proposed to be tendered through this witness, tendered  and explained through this witness are in, generally  speaking, the same category as this one?  In what sense? 17997  Submission by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  Well, in the sense that Ms. Koenigsberg has  described.  MR. GRANT:  There are five Wet'suwet'en genealogies, my friends  have known for -- since 1985 that the pleadings set  out the houses, and they have known since the end of  the lay evidence, and the fact that Ms. Harris didn't  give evidence this year and her report in 1987 never  referred to the Wet'suwet'en, that these five  genealogies had not yet been tendered.  It was never  the intention of the plaintiffs not to tender these  genealogies, the issues that my friend raises, I say,  I am saying, my lord, I am taken completely by  surprise, because my friend never, at the time it was  announced that we were going to tender these through  this witness, never -- no suggestion has ever been  made to counsel for the plaintiffs that my friends  were going to object --  THE COURT: She says she only got them on Friday.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Afternoon.  MR. GRANT:  But she knew the houses, she has had the  interrogatories since 1986, which have the house  members or some house members of them of these houses,  she knew the houses long, long before Friday, and she  knew the five houses that were going to be examined  upon on these genealogies.  And of course we announced  who the witness was and it was known through the  witness that this witness is not a member of one of  these houses.  This witness -- there is two levels, my  lord, first of all this witness, as the evidence has  already established, is a person that participates in  the Wet'suwet'en feast and has knowledge of those  persons that participate, she has --  THE COURT:  I am sorry, I thought Ms. Wilson-Kenni was a member  of the House of Spookw.  MR. GRANT:  Yes.  She is not a member of these five houses.  THE COURT:  And Spookw, is that a Wet'suwet'en house.  MR. GRANT:  It's a Gitksan house.  THE COURT:  Yes, a Gitksan house.  MR. GRANT:  But Ms. Kenni has given evidence and she has  participated in many of the Wet'suwet'en feasts.  You  may recall her evidence was that she lived in  Hagwilget and gave evidence --  THE COURT:  I think before you go on, I should find out  whether -- what the position of the other defendant is  in respect to Ms. Koenigsberg's objection.  Mr.  Mackenzie?  MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord. 1799?  Submission by Mr. Mackenzie  1 In summary, the provincial defendant adopts Ms.  2 Koenigsberg's comments and particularly with regard to  3 the delivery of these, the details of the genealogies  4 Friday afternoon.  It's clear as your lordship says  5 that Ms. Wilson-Kenni is a member of the House of  6 Spookw, a Gitksan house, and until one has an  7 opportunity to study the genealogies, it's difficult  8 to formulate these objections, but I don't think I can  9 repeat any of Ms. Koenigsberg's comments any better  10 than she has already stated them.  11 Thank you my lord.  12 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.  13 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  My lord, I might just say that it was  14 certainly said that the issue of the production of  15 these Wet'suwet'en genealogies your lordship has heard  16 much about over these last two years, when we asked  17 for production, when witnesses were coming along, and  18 Mr. Rush took the position before your lordship that  19 they had no obligation, as it turns out, which is  20 entirely true, to produce these if they weren't going  21 to rely on them.  They also took the position that  22 they would produce them when they chose to but they  23 never said that they were necessarily going to produce  24 them.  And I might say that until it was announced by  25 Mr. Rush, I believe last Tuesday, that Ms. Wilson-  26 Kenni would be giving the evidence for these five, it  27 was news to us.  We did not know that we were going to  28 be spending this week doing this particular evidence.  29 So, just to respond to that matter, and for your  30 lordship's information, the five houses that we have  31 been given information of, are Goohlaht/Caspit and we  32 had Caspit as a witness, Stanley Morris, Woos, we had  33 Roy Morris as a witness, Hagwilnegh, we had Johnny  34 David as a witness, he is a member of that house and  35 the holder of a chief's name and has given evidence of  36 it.  Samoox, we had evidence from Johnny David about  37 that house and information that is on that genealogy,  38 and he was called as a witness.  But there as no  39 genealogy put to him.  And Smogelgem.  Smogelgem is a  40 house we have heard a lot of evidence about, both  41 Anton Tom and Mary Joseph are members of that house  42 and gave evidence and were cross-examined about  43 matters relating to genealogies, however there was no  44 genealogy, and available, but not called by the  45 plaintiffs, is Leonard George, who is Smogelgem, and  46 who your lordship has heard much about as one of the  47 researchers.  So that we have dealt with these matters 17999  Submission by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  before your lordship and I would press my objection.  THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Well, Mr. Grant, it doesn't  seem to me that the defendants have in any way waived  their right to object when mention was made that this  kind of evidence might be adduced.  Counsel were  entitled to have particulars before they would have to  make an objection known and I do not think applying  ordinary principles of waiver that it can be said that  they have had full knowledge until they received the  documents.  It seems to me, however, that we should, in order  to process this objection properly, and indeed to  receive the evidence properly, you would have to  tender this witness, would you not, as a person who  can give opinion evidence and allow your friends to  cross-examine or you must accept the statements  counsel have made, that she is a person who is not a  member of these houses and is, in effect, repeating  what, ex facie, must be hearsay?  MR. GRANT:  Well, my friends made many points in her objection  and maybe I can deal with them.  I think you have  raised or reiterated the key ones.  All right.  I do not say that my friends have waived by the fact  of not advising, my lord.  I was just pointing out  that there is --  You are emphasizing the difficulty.  There is no surprise to them, absolute no surprise.  But surprise isn't the real basis for Ms.  Koenigsberg's objection.  There may be some  colouration but certainly not the basis.  MR. GRANT:  First of all, I find it very interesting, my lord,  that Ms. Koenigsberg adopts this principle that has  been given in evidence to you by Gitksan and  Wet'suwet'en that chiefs will speak for their own  houses.  That is not the rules of evidence in which we  are dealing with here.  If this witness has personal  knowledge of the genealogies of that -- of other  persons of Wet'suwet'en, I submit she can give that  evidence, and many of the people on these genealogies,  this person knows.  That is within her generation and  thereafter.  I submit secondly, my lord, that  genealogical evidence, there is an exception to the  hearsay rule for genealogical evidence.  Genealogies  and genealogical background is an acceptable exception  that you can go further back.  There is a section, as  I recall, and I don't have the reference, I don't have  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT 18000  Submission by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  it with me, because I didn't anticipate this objection  and that's one of my concerns and problems because I  didn't anticipate having to argue this.  But in  reviewing this earlier on, I believe Phipson on  evidence deals with an exception dealing with  genealogies as I recall.  THE COURT:  Are you talking about those portions of that learned  work dealing with pedigree?  MR. GRANT:  Yes, and as I said, I would have to go back to it  again.  But if this is an issue, if it's an issue that  we should argue out fully now, I certainly want to  have an opportunity to look at that and refer your  lordship to that.  Now, I do not propose --  THE COURT:  Let me just see if I understand you.  Then you're  saying it is not necessary for this evidence to be  admissible for the witness to be qualified as one who  can give opinion evidence?  MR. GRANT:  You took the next words right out might of my mouth.  THE COURT:  You're saying that -- you're saying that she can  give evidence of a reputation?  MR. GRANT:  That's right.  THE COURT:  Of pedigree.  MR. GRANT:  That's right.  And this witness will give evidence  as to why she is speaking for these houses and her  communications with the persons from these houses.  But the point is, my friend has made a fundamental  error, which your lordship has made clear throughout  the trial and I -- I am sure the plaintiffs are  pleased that my friend is adopting the Gitksan system  of authority to that extent, but she says because the  Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en say they can only speak for  their houses, then you can only hear that evidence.  And I say that's not correct.  THE COURT:  I don't think Ms. Koenigsberg was saying that, she  was saying the best evidence rule applied and people  who are likely to have better and more intimate  knowledge of these matters than this witness, but that  may be a matter of weight.  MR. GRANT:  That may be a matter of weight.  My friend says, for  example, and she starts going through the list, Caspit  was called, that's true.  Caspit was called at 7:45  one night to be cross-examined on his affidavit.  Mr.  McKenzie, I believe, was ill and was late, and they  had half an hour to complete it.  Johnny David was  called on cross-examination, although he was called on  commission, the genealogies were not ready.  If the 18001  Submission by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  genealogies had been prepared at the time he was  called in 1985 on his commission, I don't disagree  with my friend.  Johnny David as you recall gave all  of his evidence on cross-examination in Wet'suwet'en,  he is between 96 and 100 years of age and he asked  your lordship if he could get out of court before noon  hour, if you recall.  Hagwilnegh, Sylvester William is  deceased, Smogelgem, my friend has said -- you have  heard lots of evidence about Smogelgem.  And Leonard  George is available. Well, my friend I say --  :  You needn't trouble yourself with that.  I don't  think --  :  We couldn't put these genealogies to witnesses on  cross-examination without changing the affidavit  process, my lord and there were strict rules that you  set down, on the urging of my friends, that the  affidavits deal with territories.  There was no ruling  that we could deal with genealogies by affidavit.  And  I think that it will become apparent as to why that's  probably not appropriate.  But my friend says that we  could cross-examine.  The interrogatories dealt with  house membership lists and my friends could put those  to any of these witnesses and in fact these did.  For  example, Woos, Roy Morris was cross-examined for I  believe two days by my friends, and it included  evidence relating to genealogies, to the house  membership.  And my friend says, well -- I say why is  my friends challenging the gift?  If her thesis is  that the chiefs should know about houses and maybe  they don't, well, she can go back to the evidence of  those people and compare them with the evidence that  this witness gives and make her arguments.  But that  is an issue for argument.  What we are trying -- it's  very, very simple, my lord, what we are trying to do,  the problem is a logistical problem.  These  genealogies were not prepared, not completed until  this last month.  And that is the difficulty.  All of  the things my friend says it would be preferable from  the plaintiffs' side as well as the defendants', but  the logistics, it was not there.  And now this witness  has personal knowledge of a large number of these  people, and by reputation, knowing all of these  chiefs, by reputation knows who the predecessors were.  There are some persons on these genealogies that this  witness doesn't know and I am going to adduce that  through the witness and my friends can make what they  will of that.  And we will have to live with that. 18002  Submission by Mr. Grant  1 THE COURT:  All right. Thank you.  Ms. Koenigsberg, why can't  2 this witness, not as an expert, not qualified as an  3 expert, give the kind of evidence which the  4 authorities suggest can be given about the reputation  5 for pedigree or genealogy, which is an exception to  6 the hearsay rule?  It might be better coming from the  7 people you mention, but does that not go to weight?  8 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  In my submission, it doesn't, my lord, and  9 it's actually fundamental to my objection.  10 There is no question that this witness has  11 knowledge of people and where they sit in feasts  12 because we had evidence that she has attended a number  13 of Wet'suwet'en feasts and she in fact speaks  14 Wet'suwet'en.  There is no question that she is a  15 knowledgeable member of that community.  The  16 difficulty is this -- I don't know how to do this  17 without doing a cross-examination.  I don't really  18 want to do but I think it illustrates the point.  We  19 have Samoox, it is one page, my lord.  It has very few  20 people on it.  A person, Johnny David, is not a member  21 of the house of Samoox; his wife was.  And Johnny  22 David gave evidence about relationships in the house  23 of Samoox.  He was a person who was related in that  24 house, his son was Samoox.  25 THE COURT:  Moses David?  26 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Moses David, that's right.  Now we are faced  27 with this problem --  28 THE COURT:  That dot in the triangle means deceased, does it  29 not?  30 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  And he is deceased.  And another person  31 who is not shown on here, but according to the  32 evidence of -- one witness has given evidence, has  33 taken that name. So there is another Samoox.  34 MR. GRANT:  That's shown as Harvey Naziel has taken the name  35 Samoox, my lord.  There was a suggestion that another  36 witness, another person may well be the successor in  37 the name in earlier evidence but in fact this witness  38 will gave evidence about Harvey Naziel having taken  3 9 the name.  40 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  This is the difficulty my friend is helping to  41 illustrate.  In preparing for cross-examination on the  42 validity of this as reputation, or in any other way,  43 we have to go back to the people who have, arguably,  44 the best firsthand evidence.  They have given  45 evidence.  I can tell your lordship that it is at  46 variance with what is shown on this page and, in my  47 submission, to have this witness now come forward and 18003  Submission by Mr. Grant  1 say, well, this is my understanding of the way it  2 works, we will be faced, with good argument for the  3 defence, well, we had Johnny David and he said this  4 person is related to so and so and we have Dora  5 Wilson-Kenni come along and say they were related to  6 somebody else so, you see, there is no reputation.  7 But in my submission it illustrates the reason why the  8 best evidence rule and the notion of necessity is a  9 rule that goes to admissibility of evidence that's to  10 come in under the exception to the hearsay rule.  11 Because we have contrary evidence or, at the very  12 least, the opportunity for contrary evidence from  13 persons that your lordship has to accept over this  14 witness.  And it doesn't matter, in my submission,  15 whether this witness knows more or doesn't know more  16 than the people who have already given evidence.  It  17 would be a different situation, we would be having a  18 different argument if Johnny David weren't available  19 and hadn't given evidence or if somebody from Caspit's  2 0 house hadn't given evidence.  But we do have these  21 other people, in several instances my friends have  22 called the other people either in chief, many times in  23 chief, or in cross-examination, adduced evidence that  24 is now represented on these genealogies at this late  25 date, and it's arguably different, if not clearly  26 different.  And it just, in my submission, goes to why  27 it goes to admissibility and not weight.  The weight,  28 in my submission, is beyond peradventure, with the  29 sworn evidence with the people who are said to be in  30 this house.  It is the plaintiffs' case that, and it  31 is their submission, that the house structure and the  32 people in the houses are the best evidence of who the  33 members of that house are.  And it's obvious they  34 weren't, in that position, and if it's necessary to  35 call somebody else, because there is no living member  36 of that house, or no member who is available  37 conveniently, or who hasn't given evidence, then we  38 are into a different argument, we are into necessity,  39 and there wore would be no argument there.  But that's  40 not what we are faced with here in the practical  41 problem of not having the best evidence or bringing it  42 out over on top of the other evidence is before us  43 and, in my submission, it does go to admissibility and  44 not weight.  4 5    THE COURT:  Thank you.  46 In my view the plaintiff is not required to limit  47 its evidence to that which is consistent with 18004  Ruling  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  MR. GRANT  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  THE COURT  previously adduced testimony.  I think, subject to the  objection, that I should hear this evidence because,  with the greatest respect to Ms. Koenigsberg, I have  the view presently that her objection does go to  weight rather than to admissability.  I believe that  any witness, either within the specific exception to  the hearsay rule relating to genealogies, or under the  broader rule enunciated by Chief Justice Dickson in  Krueger and Manuel, that evidence of this kind may be  given where there is no written record.  The evidence is, however, subject to the infirmity,  infirmities, which have been mentioned.  It may be  that the reputation of which she will speak is  weakened or destroyed by other evidence, or by the  limited nature of her exposure to it.  But in the case  of this magnitude, I think that I should again err, if  at all, on the side of admissability, keeping in mind  it is evidence of reputation only.  You may proceed, Mr. Grant.  :  Thank you, my lord.  Ms. Wilson-Kenni you have the Samoox genealogy in  front of you dated June 24th, 1989.  Who is the  present holder of the name Samoox?  Harvey Naziel.  And Harvey Naziel is shown on this with a dotted line  as adoption; is that right?  Yes.  Now, can you -- when did Harvey Naziel take the name,  approximately, in relation to the commencement of this  court action in October of 1984?  Just last fall.  And before Harvey held the name, who held the name?  Moses David.  Now, Harvey is shown as adopted into this house, did  you attend the feast at which Harvey Naziel took the  name?  No, I was down here.  Did you -- do you know what house Harvey Naziel was in  before he was adopted into this house?  Goohlaht.  And do you know Harvey Naziel?  Yes.  Who was his mother?  Cora Naziel, that's Goohlaht's daughter.  And who is Goohlaht today?  Lucy Namox.  :  I am sorry, who? 18005  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   Lucy Namox.  2 MR. GRANT:  3 Q   Did you know Moses David?  4 A   Yes.  5 THE COURT:  Harvey Naziel's mother was Cora Naziel?  6 A   Yes.  7 THE COURT:  Who was?  8 A   She was -- she is the daughter of Lucy Namox.  9 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Daughter of Lucy Namox who  10 was --  11 MR. GRANT:  Goohlaht.  12 THE COURT:  Goohlaht.  13 MR. GRANT:  14 Q   Now, Moses David was the son of Miriam and Johnny  15 David?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And Johnny David is Maxlaxlax?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   You said you knew Moses David?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Did he die since this court action was commenced?  22 A   Yes.  2 3 Q   And you know Johnny David?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Did you know his wife Miriam?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And it shows that Miriam adopted Frank David?  28 A   Yes.  2 9 Q   And Maggie Seymour?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Did you know Maggie Seymour?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And Maggie Seymour shows had two children, one Carl  34 and the other Jennifer David?  35 A   Yes.  3 6 Q   And did you know Carl?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   He is now deceased?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And Jennifer, you knew her?  41 A   I know her.  42 Q   And Jennifer has two children, Carl and Dustin?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   So the only lineage in the Samoox house, aside from  45 the adoption of Harvey Naziel, is Jennifer's lineage?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Now — 18006  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  THE  COURT  2  A  3  THE  COURT  4  A  5  THE  COURT  6  A  7  MR.  GRANT  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  THE  COURT  45  A  46  MR.  GRANT  47  :  Is that name Dustin, D-U-S-T-I-N?  Yes.  :  And the other one is Carl?  Carl.  : C-A-R-L?  Yes.  Are they small children?  Yes.  Infants?  Dustin is about eight, born '82, and Carl is just six  weeks old.  Now, it shows that Miriam's mother was Agnes Dennis?  Yes.  Agnes Dennis died before your time?  Yes.  And you heard of her?  Yes.  And her brother was David Dennis?  Yes.  And he held the name Satsan?  Yes.  I knew him.  And did David -- when did David die, approximately, in  relation to the commencement of the court action,  before or after October of '84?  After.  And was he quite old at that time?  Yes.  His lordship has seen Johnny David, was David Dennis  older than Johnny?  No, I think Johnny is older than David Dennis.  And it shows that Agnes Dennis's father, Agnes and  David Dennis's father, was Old Sam, Maxlaxlax?  Yes.  And you have heard of Old Sam, Maxlaxlax?  Yes.  And he was spoken of and referred to in a feast as the  former holder of the name?  Yes.  These were feasts that you were at?  Yes.  And you have heard of Skin Dyee?  I have heard the name, yes.  :  You didn't know Old Sam?  No, I didn't.  :  Okay.  I would like ask that that be marked as the  next exhibit, genealogy of Samoox, dated June 24, 18007  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  (EXHIBI1  4  5  MR.  GRANT  6  Q  7  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  Q  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  MR.  GRANT  25  26  THE  COURT  27  28  MR.  GRANT  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  GRANT  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  1989.  GENEALOGY OF SAMOOX/K'AYA DATED JUNE 24, 198 9)  Do you know who was involved -- before I leave that  one, my lord, who was involved -- which chiefs or what  houses would be involved in the decision that Harvey  Naziel would move into the House of Samoox and take  that name?  It would be the Gilseyhu.  Gilseyhu Clan?  Yes.  What other houses other than Samoox would be involved  then?  Well Goohlaht and Samoox and Caspit.  Well, Goohlaht  and Caspit are one.  I would like to refer you to the Goohlaht/Caspit  genealogy.  Now, just look at page 1, I would just like to  start there, and it says Lucy Michell who married Pat  Namox?  If you don't mind I want to have these staples off.  :  Yes.  Actually, my lord, it may be the preference of  your lordship to get it off.  :  I want to compliment whoever put the staples in for  the plaintiff.  Certainly did a wonderful job.  :  My colleague in court is responsible for this one.  He maintains high level of rigour in everything he  does .  All right.  You have got that.  The other house is Knedebeas that would have been  involved in the decision with Harvey.  Now, do you know if the decision for Harvey to take  the name Samoox, did that occur before or after Moses  died?  I think it was after.  Okay.  Now I would like to just start the Goohlaht  genealogy with Lucy Michell who married Pat Namox on  page one.  Is she the present Goohlaht?  Yes.  Okay.  :  I am sorry, who is that Lucy is the present --  :  Goohlaht.  That's page one.  And do you know Lucy?  Yes.  And her husband is Pat Namox? 18008  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  MR. GRANT  26  THE COURT  27  MR. GRANT  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  MR. GRANT  Yes.  Lucy, according to -- and I am looking at pages, for  the moment, pages one and two, my lord, Lucy, and the  line continues on page 2, Lucy has a brother Albert  Michell who you know?  Yes.  A brother Roy Michell that you know?  Yes.  Who is married to Helen Alfred?  Yes.  And two deceased, a brother and sister, a brother  Victoria and Eddie Michell, and you didn't know them?  No.  Did you hear of them?  Yes.  And Jenny Michell, do you know her?  Yes.  And she married Johnny Michell?  Yes.  Johnny Mitchell, I should say.  Mitchell.  And Johnny Mitchell, he is deceased now, is that  right?  Yes.  There should be a dot there, my lord.  Yes, there is now.  And you can just mark it on that, the dot.  And Agnes  Michell, you have heard of her but she died?  Yes.  And Rose Michell, you know her?  Yes.  Going to page 3, if you just slide it over, on the  same line, Cecilia Michell, who is married to Roger  Lapalme, you know her?  Yes.  And Roger.  Mabel Michell, who was married to Johnny  Mack?  Yes.  You know her?  Yes.  Johnny Mack, did he hold a chief's name before he  died?  Yes.  What was that?  It was Kloumkhun.  :  K-L-O-U-M-K-H-U-N. 18009  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  THE COURT  2  A  3  4  MR. GRANT  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  A  25  MR. GRANT  26  THE COURT  27  MR. GRANT  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  When did he die?  He died -- let's see, Patrick got that name now and  between -- '86, I think.  And who holds the name Kloumkhun?  Patrick Pierre.  John Michell is another brother of Lucy Michell?  Yes.  Goohlaht?  Yes.  And Eddie Michell?  Yes.  And you know those?  Yes.  Now --  Except Eddie, I don't know him.  You don't know Eddie.  I know the rest of them.  Now, going to page one and two again, just going back  there, I don't want to go through all of these, we are  going to shortcut it, you see under Lucy Michell and  Pat Namox there is a number of children starting on  the line Cora Namox, do you see those?  Yes.  Do you see those, my lord?.  Yes.  Do you know those children of Lucy and Pat?  Yes.  And they go on to page 2?  Yes.  And you know that -- do you know that Cora and Billie  have a number of children?  Yes.  And do you know them?  Yes.  And do you know Virginia and Patrick Pierre have a  number of children?  Yes.  And you know them?  Yes.  And you know that Roseanne has children?  Yes.  Do you know them?  Yes.  And you know that Bernadette has a child?  Yes. 18010  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   And you know him.  Now, Christine had a child who  2 appeared to die shortly after birth?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   Now, do you know these persons that we have now  5 described as being members of the House of Goohlaht?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Have you seen them so, those who attend the feast,  8 have you seen them sitting in the feast hall?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Now, going to Jenny Michell, who married Johnny  11 Mitchell, I am on page 2?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   You know that Jenny had a son Clarence?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And a number of other children?  16 A   Yes.  17 THE COURT:  Just a minute.  I haven't found Jenny yet.  18 MR. GRANT:  Sorry, it's on the line with Lucy Michell.  It's the  19 second line from the bottom on page 2.  I should say  20 the third line from the bottom, my lord.  The line  21 that starts with Roy Michell on the left-hand side.  22 THE COURT:  No.  I am sorry.  23 MR. GRANT:  You had — you probably put if in black pencil,  24 Johnny Mitchell who died, that addition, it's his  2 5              wife.  26 THE COURT:  I made a dot but I have seen so many dots now.  What  27 is the name we are looking for again?  28 MR. GRANT:  Jenny Michell on the line with Roy Michell.  2 9 THE COURT:  I haven't found Roy either.  30 A  Almost right in the middle of the page, the second  31 line up from the bottom.  32 MR. GRANT:  On page 2?  33 A   Page 2.  34 THE COURT:  Sorry, I have got page 3.  That explains it.  Yes, I  35 have them.  Yes.  Thank you.  3 6 MR. GRANT:  37 Q   Now, you knew Clarence quite well?  38 A   Yes, just Clarence and Teddy.  The rest I know of  39 them.  40 Q   And you know them as being in the House of Goohlaht?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And you know Rose, who married Joe Bill, had a number  43 of children?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And you know them as being in the House of Goohlaht?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Now, while we are on page 2 -- maybe I better finish 18011  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  this lineage here so that there is -- I am trying to  follow the same line, my lord.   You go over to page 3  and you see on the same line as page 2 with Rose  Michell, it continues to Cecilia Michell and Roger  Lapalme and you know their children?  Yes.  Now, mabel Michell and Johnny Mack, who you described  as the head chief of Kloumkhun, died in 1986, it  appears they adopted Sharon Tom?  Yes.  Is that right?  Yes.  And that was something described in the feast?  Yes.  And they also adopted the children of Sharon Tom,  Christopher Tom and Emily Tom?  Yes.  And they were adopted into this house of Goohlaht?  Yes.  Do you recall which house they would have come from?  She was the daughter of Mabel Tom and Mabel Tom --  Sharon was the daughter of Mabel Tom?  Yes.  Yes.  We come to Mabel Tom later.  Yes.  Now -- okay.  Going to page 2 again, it shows that  Lucy Michell, Goohlaht, and she is now known as Lucy  Namox, right, she married Pat Namox, on page one?  Yes.  If we go up the line above Jenny Michell on page 2, it  appears that her mother was Estelle Alec, who married  Bazil Michell?  Yes.  And you knew Estelle Alec?  Yes.  And it also appears that Estelle had a brother,  Phillip Alec, who married Josephine Wilson and Mariann  Alec?  Yes, Mariann Alec first and then Josephine Wilson,  Josephine was my aunt.  And you knew Phillip?  Yes.  And you knew him as the brother of Estelle, a member  of the House of Goohlaht?  A   Yes.  THE COURT:  What does this mean that Estelle and Alec are, I am  sorry, Estelle and Phillip are what?  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q 18012  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  GRANT:  Brother and sister.  A   Brother and sister.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  GRANT:  You have the line down, my lord?  COURT:  Yes, I see.  Yes.  GRANT:  And then it shows that Phillip married Mariann Alec  and then later Josephine Wilson.  COURT:  Yes.  GRANT:  Q   If you could just slide that page 2 over, Ms. Wilson-  Kenni, and then you see Max Alec and Christine Alec,  who married Jack Harris, as brothers of Phillip,  brother and sister of Phillip respectively, do you see  on page 3?  COURT:  Talking about Christine and Jack Harris?  GRANT:  Q   Yes, that's the sister of Phillip, you knew her?  A   That's not Harris, I think that's Morris.  Q   I am sorry, Jack Morris it should be.  COURT:  Yes.  A   Yes.  GRANT:  That's my misreading.  A   Yes.  Q   And Christine Alec, you knew Christine Alec?  A   Yes.  Q   And you were told of Max Alec by your uncle Phillip?  MR. MACKENZIE:  Can we get an answer to that?  MR. GRANT:  I am sorry.  Q   You heard of Max Alec?  A I have heard of Max Alec because of his, his children  and my cousins are in contact with his children. But  they live over Takla.  You knew him as the brother of your uncle Phillip?  Yes.  And do you recall where Max Alec lived?  Takla.  Takla.  Okay.  Now, I am going to go back on page 3 we  go up another generation and it shows your uncle  Phillip's mother as Adelle Alec.  Yes.  And she died around 1940?  Yes.  And you were -- you heard of her from your uncle?  Yes.  All right.  And then there was -- Adelle had a sister  Nancy Bazil, who married Old Sam?  A   Yes.  Q   And you heard of her as well?  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q 18013  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And you heard they had other sisters?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And then did your uncle tell you about his grandmother  5 Silp'da on his mother's side?  6 A   Silp'da, yes.  I have heard that from -- I didn't hear  7 it from Phillip, I heard it from Lucy, Lucy Namox.  8 Q   Now, Adelle Alec, your uncle Phillip's mother, had  9 married a man Alec Tyee?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   And you have heard of him?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   But Alec Tyee also married another woman, and I am  14 putting page two and three together for this question,  15 Ms. Kenni, Ms. Wilson-Kenni, Alec Tyee married another  16 woman who was the daughter of Felix George's sister?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And you knew of that connection?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   And you heard that described.  And Felix George,  21 what's the significance of him for this house?  22 A   He was Goohlaht and I knew his wife Cecilia George.  I  23 didn't know Felix George.  I think he died before I  24 was born.  25 Q   Okay.  And his wife, how did you know her?  26 A   I knew his wife, Cecilia George, she lived right  27 across from my great grandmother at home at Hagwilget  28 and she is also Alfred's grandmother.  29 Q   Alfred?  30 A  Alfred Joseph's grandmother.  31 Q   Felix George, do you know Mary Skin?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   She was cross-examined on a territorial affidavit  34 before his lordship or out of court it may have been?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   You know Frances and Frank Skin?  37 A   No, I don't, just Mary.  38 Q   And Mary, were you -- do you know the connection  39 between Mary Skin and Felix George in that she was his  40 niece, that is, his sister's daughter?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   Now, I would like to go back to page 3 and you see  43 Christine -- I am going to pages three and four now,  44 my lord, I had stopped at Christine Alec who married  45 Jack Morris and you knew both of them?  46 A   I knew Christine.  47 Q   You knew Christine? 18014  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  THE COURT  13  A  14  MR. GRANT  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  MR. GRANT  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  46  Q  47  Yes.  And Christine had three daughters, Violet Alec,  Cecilia Alec and Clara Alec, did you know those three  daughter?  I knew Violet and Cecilia was quite young but I knew  Clara. I knew Violet and Clara.  And Violet married Donald Austin?  Yes.  And had a daughter Linda?  Yes.   Linda should, there should be a dot there, she  died a couple of years back.  :  Linda Austin?  Yes.  And she was married to a Gitksan and had two children  who are members of this house?  Yes.  Did you know Violet as a member of the House of  Goohlaht?  Yes.  And then Violet is married to Jimmy Joseph?  Yes.  And how are you related to Jimmy?  He is my uncle.  And you know the childred of Violet and Jimmy which  are all shown on the line commencing with Audrey and  going to Carol?  Yes.  And Audrey is shown as Audrey Austin?  It should be Joseph.  It should be Audrey Joseph?  Yes.  :  I would ask that to be corrected, my lord.  And you know all the children of Audrey?  All those children in that line there.  The very bottom line on pages three and four?  Yes, Joseph.  That is the grandchildren of Violet and your uncle  Jimmy, you know these personally?  I know them as that's her children.  And you know them as members of this house, the House  of Goohlaht?  The first line there is their children, right below  Violet and Jimmy, that line there, that's their  children.  You said grandchildren.  I understand.  Okay.  You know all of those children  of Violet and Jimmy? 18015  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 A Yes.  2 Q Do you know the grandchildren of Violet and Jimmy that  3 are shown here as the children of Audrey, Brenda and  4 Angela shown on the very bottom line?  5 A Yes.  6 Q And you know them as being members of the house?  7 A Yes.  8 Q Of this house.  Now if you look at the far right of  9 the line, you see Carol Joseph who married Klaus  10 Eichstaet?  11 A That's Carol Eichstaet today?  12 A Yes.  13 Q She is shown as adopted?  14 A Yes.  15 Q Do you know where she was adopted out of?  16 A She was Amagyet, Gitksan house.  17 Q That's a Gitksan house?  18 A It's Jimmy's oldest daughter.  His wife had died.  19 Q Jimmy -- it's Jimmy Joseph's receives oldest daughter  20 from a previous wife that died?  21 A Yes.  22 Q If you look at Clara Alec, who you described you knew,  23 and she married Sylvester George?  24 A Yes.  25 Q And you know Sylvester, do you?  26 A Yes.  27 Q What house is he from?  28 A He is from Gisday wa.  House?  29 Q Which house is he from?  30 A Gisday wa.  31 Q And then Clara and he had a number of children that  32 are shown on page four, starting with Ken George and  33 going to Dan George?  34 A Yes.  35 Q Do you know all of those children of theirs?  36 A Yes.  37 Q Do you know Joyce's and Lillian's children?  38 A Yes.  39 Q And they are all members of this house?  40 A Yes.  41 Q And Marvin George is shown there, that is Marvin  42 George the cartographer?  43 A Yes.  44 Q Going over to page five and six now.  I would like, if  45 possible, to start, because it's the top of this  46 lineage, to start on page six, Ms. Wilson-Kenni.  And  47 you see at the very top, the top line the first name 18016  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Did you hear of that  This is on page six now.  THE  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  MR.  there is James Yami Caspit.  person, James Yami Caspit?  Do you have where I am?  A   Yes.  Q   Did you hear of him?  A   Yes.  Q   Did he die before your time?  A   I think so.  Q   Now, then you see Canyon Creek Mary as being the  daughter of his sister and Louise Baptiste, John  Thomas, Seymour Thomas and William Caspit?  A   Yes.  Q   You follow that line?  A   Hm-hmm.  Q   And then there is Ghonnow, just a second.  There is --  A  Are you on page six?  Where are you?  Q   I am on page six and seven.  I may have gone over to  page seven as well.  Take page five out and just leave  those.  COURT:  I found it.  GRANT:  Q   Ghonnow on page seven.  A   Hm-hmm, Ghonnow.  Okay.  Q   Now, for my friends' reference, the --  MACKENZIE:  Where is that?  GRANT:  Just give me a second.  COURT:  The top item on page seven.  GRANT:  It's on page seven of the draft I provided my  friends today.  The draft I provided on Friday,  Ghonnow is not shown.  MACKENZIE:  It's not on the material we received on Friday.  GRANT:  No, I just said that.  Q   Now with respect to that line, can you describe who  you heard of, and that's that line starting at Canyon  Creek Mary.  That's the -- well, one of the things on here is  Ghonnow here, was the mother of Margret Augusta, who  was Steve Morris and Keom Morris's mother, and Steve  is Roy Morris's father.  Did you know --  That's how I know that.  Did you know Steve Morris?  I didn't know him.  I heard of him because it's Roy  Morris's father.  And what name does Roy hold today?  Woos.  And Steve was married to one of my great aunts,  her name was Lucy from our house.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A 18017  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  MR. GRANT  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  Q  30  THE COURT  31  A  32  MR. GRANT  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  Now Margaret Augusta had a sister Agnes Augusta?  Agnes, and her son was Paddy Isaac.  And his -- Paddy  Isaac's father was called Old Isaac and Old Isaac's  brother was Bill Nye, who was Madiik.  He held the name Madiik?  Yes.  :  I believe for reference, from Bill Nye and Madiik  that genealogy has already been tendered, my lord.  Now going back to William Caspit, did you hear of him  as former holder of the name Caspit?  Yes.  And then Seymour Morris, who held the name Caspit, is  he related to Jimmy Morris?  That's William's brother?  Related to Jimmy Morris?  Seymour Morris.  If you can't recall, that's all  right.  There is too many names right now in my head.  Okay.  Now, Louie Baptiste, did you know Andrew Louie?  Louie Baptiste that was Andy Louie's father.  And did you have any -- did you have any connection  with Andrew Louie?  Andrew Louie is the father of Doris, who was married  to one of my brothers.  Which brother?  Victor.  Victor Austin?  Yes.  And Andy, Andrew Louie is from Stellaquo, lives  in Stellaquo.  Now going down the next line.  :  Where is Stellaquo?  It's near Fraser lake.  :  It's right at the west end of Fraser Lake,  S-T-E-L-L-A-Q-U-0.  Those two you're talking about, they held the name  Caspit, Seymour and William.  Did you hear them being referred to as former holders  of Caspit in the feast?  Yes.  You heard them being described that way?  Yes.  Now, do you know the name of their mother, that is,  James Yami Caspit's sister?  James Yami Caspit?  Just the line above?  No.  Now going down a line you see the line starting  Annette Thomas, these are Canyon Creek Mary's children 1801?  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  THE  COURT  3  MR.  GRANT  4  THE  COURT  5  MR.  GRANT  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  14  A  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  GRANT  44  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  GRANT  47  THE  COURT  on page five.  I am sorry, you --  The line doesn't start there, does it?  It starts on page five.  Starts with Annette Thomas.  Annette Thomas?  Annette, yes.  Right.  Going over to the second one, did you know  Elizabeth Thomas and Jack Joseph?  Yes.  And then there is a series of children on pages five  and six of Elizabeth and Jack.  And the first two,  Victor and Thomas are shown as deceased, do you recall  those two children?   Or had you heard of them?  No, I don't -- I don't remember them but I knew  William.  Okay.  And Annette?  Yes, I knew her.  Margaret?  I know her.  Yes.  I know her.  Minnie?  Yes.  Alec, married to a Sampare, a Gitksan person?  I have only heard of Alec.  You have heard of Alec?  Yes.  John?  Yes.  And Agnes?  Yes.  Sophie who married Freddy Charlie?  I didn't know Sophie but I know Freddy Charlie.  I  knew that that was his first wife.  And did you know that his first wife was from this  house?  Yes.  And Louie Joseph married to Mary Tom, did you know  Louie?  Yes, Louie, I think he is the one that burned to death  in a fire, house fire.  Do you recall when he died, approximately?  No.  It's a few years ago.  Who is this we are talking about?  Louie Joseph, the far end on page six of this one  line, my lord, starting with Victor Joseph on the end.  Yes, yes.  He died in a fire.  When do you think he died? 18019  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  3  MR.  GRANT  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  GRANT  20  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  GRANT  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  GRANT  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  About ten, 12 years ago.  He had a son that died with  him in this house fire.  All right.  Now, if you would look at Annette Joseph,  you know that Annette, who you knew, and Margaret and  Minnie, had a number of children, all had children?  Yes.  And do you know those children as being in this house?  Yes.  And Sophie had a number of children who are in this  house, did you know her, she had children?  Yes.  And do you know Jeffery Charlie personally?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, I am continuing on, if you go up a line  where Elizabeth Jack was, or Elizabeth Thomas.  I am  sorry, Annette Thomas line.  :  Which page are you on?  :  On page five and six, I am going to move along page  6 on that line.  I had stopped at Elizabeth Thomas.  :  On page --  :  Page six, third line down.  Had you heard of Jimmy Thomas who married Mary David?  Yes.  He was the previous Caspit as well.  And you have heard him described that way in the  feast?  Yes.  I am going over to page seven and the same line, had  you heard -- do you know or had you heard of Celina  Thomas who married Donald Walter?  This is the sister  of --  Yes.  Yes, it was his first wife.  Okay.  And do you know, going on, I am on page seven,  my lord.  :  Yes.  Do you know Mary Jane Thomas who married Thomas K.  Morris?  Yes.  Mary was one of Celina's children?  Yes.  And you know Mary Donald who married Jimmy Morris?  Mary Donald.  On that same line.  Yes, I know a Jimmy and --  His wife died in 1961?  Yes.  But I didn't see her too often and I can't 18020  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  1 picture her in my mind.  2 Q But you knew he was married to a daughter of Celina?  3 A Yes.  4 Q And you knew Thomas J. Morris who was married to Nancy  5 Thomas --  6 A Now where are you?  7 Q I am sorry, I am on page eight.  I am just following  8 this line.  9 A Yes.  10 Q Okay.  Seven and eight is all you need right now.  11 A Okay.  12 Q And Nancy Thomas who was married Thomas J. Morris?  13 A Yes.  14 Q And you knew Thomas J. Morris?  15 A Yes, he died just recently.  He drowned in Francois  16 Lake.  17 Q Was that just this past winter?  18 A Yes.  19 Q Did you know that Mary -- I am on -- going along page  2 0 seven and eight now, that Mary Jane Thomas had a  21 number of children that were in this house?  22 A Yes.  23 Q Mary Donald who married Jimmy Morris that are in this  24 house, pages seven and eight?  25 A Yes.  26 Q And one of those children is the present Caspit?  27 A Yes.  28 Q And that's Stanley Morris?  29 A Yes.  30 Q And just to note there, the last child of Mary and  31 Jimmy on that list is Patrick Morris who married  32 Cynthia George?  33 A Yes.  34 Q Do you know Cynthia George?  35 A Oh, yes.  36 Q What house is she in?  37 A She is from our house, Spookw.  38 Q Do you know that Thomas J. Morris --  39 THE COURT:  Where is Cynthia again?  40 A Page eight.  41 MR. GRANT:  Page eight, my lord, that line, starting Jessie  42 Morris going along that line to Patrick Morris.  On  43 page eight it starts Lorena Morris.  44 Q And you know these other children of Jimmy and Mary?  45 A Yes.  4 6 Q And Thomas J. Morris, you knew Jericho John Thomas?  47 A Yes.  He is the only one that I know very well.  The 18021  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Grant  rest I just know.  Q   But you knew him and his brothers and sisters as being  in this house?  A   Yes.  THE COURT:  Where is Jericho John?  A   Jericho John Thomas on page eight.  MR. GRANT:  Cynthia George, it's right next.  The second child  of Thomas.  Q   And then the children of Tom Nancy Thomas and Thomas  J. Morris and their daughter's children carry on to  page nine?  A   Hm-hmm.  Yes.  THE COURT:  Is this a convenient time to take the morning  adj ournment?  MR. GRANT:  Just ask this be marked as the next exhibit and I am  finished with it, my lord.  I can do that after the  break.  THE COURT:  Let's do it now.  (EXHIBIT 1064:  GOOHLAHT/CASPIT GENEALOGY DATED JUNE 24, 1989)  THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR SHORT RECESS)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Wilf Roy  Official Reporter 18022  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  MR.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT)  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT:  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Mr. Grant?  One thing I just ask to refer you -- and you don't  have to look at the genealogy.  The Goohlaht --  Exhibit 1064 is Goohlaht/Caspit?  Yes.  Are they -- is that one house or are they related  houses?  Is -- within the feast hall, where does  Caspit sit in relation to Goohlaht?  Right near her.  They act as one house even though  they're -- they should be two, but they act as one  house.  Today?  The two recognize.  I provide you the next genealogy, and that's of  Smogelgem.  And maybe you could pull the staple for  the witness.  Start at page 1.  I'd start on page 1.  And in this case the third line up from the bottom  there's Leonard George on the far right?  Yes.  And he is the present holder of Smogelgem?  Yes.  I'm sorry.  What?  Yes.  Thank you.  On page 1.  My friends want some extra copies.  I'm  sorry.  Leonard George.  Do you have it, my lord?  Yes.  I have it.  Thank you.  First of all, you see Smogelgem - Saa Yegh and Kloum  Khun - Nisgee.  Should that be --  No.  That's -- the heading you're talking about,  THE  THE  MR.  Q  A  COURT:  WITNESS  GRANT:  that's Saa Yegh and Misgee.  Instead of an N?  Not N.  It's an M.  M-i-s-g-e-e?  Yes.  Misgee.  That's an M.  Q   Now, are these separate houses?  A  Well, yes, but it's just like Goohlaht and Caspit.  Q   Okay.  Now, you know Leonard George?  A   Yes.  Q   And he's the present holder of Smogelgem?  A   Yes.  Q   Now, I'm going back from his name.  I'm going to the  left on the same line.  Do you know his sister, Gloria  George? 18023  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A Yes.  2 Q Who has had three husbands?  3 A Yes.  4 Q And his brother, William Bouchet?  5 A Yes.  6 Q And his sister, Irene George?  7 A Yes.  8 Q And his sister -- or his brother, Andrew George?  9 A Yes.  10 Q And his brother, Fred George?  11 A Yes.  12 Q And the -- the -- his brother, Jimmy George?  13 A Yes.  14 Q Jimmy George is deceased now?  15 A Yes.  16 Q He died in -- since this action was commenced?  17 A In these past three years, yes.  18 Q Now -- and do you know Irene George?  And Leonard's  19 sister, Irene, has a number of children?  20 A Yes.  21 Q And a daughter with grandchildren?  22 A Yes.  23 Q And they're all members of this house?  24 A Yes.  25 Q And they're shown on there?  2 6 A Um-hum.  27 Q Now, if you go up a line, the vertical line, did you  28 know Leonard George's mother, Mary?  29 A Yes.  30 Q And his father, Thomas George?  31 A Yes.  32 Q And did you hear of his -- now, my lord, I just ask  33 maybe a correction should be made there because the  34 line goes straight through the marriage linkage  35 between Thomas and Mary and that really -- that line  36 from Celina James should go down to Mary.  Celina  37 Christine and James Wells were Mary Wells' parents;  38 is that right?  39 A Yes.  40 Q So that line should go over.  Can you just make that  41 correction on the exhibit?  Just draw the line over  42 instead of through the middle there.  Did you hear  43 of -- from Mary of her mother, Celina?  44 A Not from Mary.  45 Q Oh, okay.  4 6 A But Leonard and Andy mostly.  47 Q Okay.  And did you know that their grandmother, 18024  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  THE COURT  36  THE WITNE  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  MR. GRANT  47  Q  Celina, had three brothers, Gootseanh, Charlie  Blist'al' and Stanislas Danis?  Um-hum.  And that they had a great-grandmother, Betsy  Biist'ai', who's shown on the top line?  Yes.  You knew of her?  I knew of her.  I didn't know her, but I heard.  Okay.  And did you know David McKenzie Sr., who was  her brother?  Had you heard of him?  I didn't know him, but I heard a lot of him and he was  grandfather to Luutkudziiwas.  The present --  Ben McKenzie Sr.  The present Luutkudziiwas?  Yes.  He was his grandfather.  Now, if you go far over to the left side, following  the top line and then going down, you see Abraham  Nikal?  Yes.  Did you know Abraham Nikal?  Yes.  And did he hold the name Smogelgem?  Smogelgem, yes.  Did you know that he was his grandmother's -- his  grandmother was David McKenzie's sister?  Sister.  Dave McKenzie Sr.  And did David McKenzie -- what name  did he hold if any?  Smogelgem.  Now --  I heard a lot of him because he was one of these  people that -- that gave a lot of feasts.  He liked  gathering --  :  Abraham?  3S:  David McKenzie Sr., Smogelgem, because he always  liked to gather people together for a feast.  One of  my favourite recollection of my grandmother -- and  also Mary McKenzie, Gyologyet, used to tell me about  him, a feast that he gave because he fell off his  horse and he got someone to pick him up and so that --  to cover him, his embarrassment of falling off his  horse, that he had to put on a feast.  But everyone  believed that he just deliberately fell off his horse  so that he could put on a feast.  Going down to the -- on page 1 still, the bottom 18025  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 right-hand corner you see Antoine Tom?  2 A Yes.  3 Q Now, is he the -- did you know Antoine Tom?  4 A Yes.  I know him.  5 Q And was he cross-examined before his lordship in the  6 case?  7 A Yes.  8 Q In Smithers?  9 A In Smithers, yes.  10 Q In December.  And Antoine Tom has a sister, Mary, and  11 a brother, David?  12 A Yes.  13 Q And you knew -- did you know his mother, Lucy Tom, and  14 Nick Tom?  15 A Yes.  16 Q Okay.  And Johnny Dominic, her brother?  17 A Yes.  18 Q And do you know all of them as being in the Smogelgem  19 house?  20 A Yes.  21 Q Now, if you follow the lines up, it appears that  22 Antoine Tom's great-great-grandmother is Betsy  23 Biist'ai', the sister of David McKenzie Sr.?  24 A Yes.  25 Q Okay.  Now, I'd like you to keep page 1 along beside  26 of page 2 for the moment and I'll just follow that  27 line through.  Did you hear of the old Smogelgem,  28 David McKenzie Senior's mother, being referred to as  29 Eliza Joseph?  30 A That's the one name that I don't recall.  31 Q Okay.  Did you know Joseph Nahloochs from the House of  32 Gisdaywa?  33 A Yes.  I knew him.  34 Q And that's N-a-h-1-o-o-c-h-s?  35 A Yes.  36 Q Did you know that he was married to David McKenzie  37 Sr.'s sister?  38 A Yes.  39 Q And that their children were all members of the House  4 0 of Smogelgem?  41 A Yes.  42 MR. GRANT:  I'm on page 2, my lord.  43 THE COURT:  Yes.  I have it.  44 THE WITNESS:  That's their — they usually say that they're from  4 5 Kloum Khun.  4 6    MR. GRANT:  47 Q They're from Kloum Khun? 18026  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  A   Yes.  COURT:  I'm sorry.  Is that a name of a place?  WITNESS:  That's the name of a house.  COURT:  From that house?  WITNESS:  Yes.  That's Smogelgem Kloum Khun.  GRANT:  That's K-1-o-u-m  K-h-u-n.  That's the name held by  Johnny Mack.  That's listed on the front of the  genealogy.  COURT:  Yes.  I'm not sure.  Well, he was from that house,  are you saying, that is Joseph?  WITNESS:  No.  Joseph Nahloochs was from the House of  Gisdaywa, but the children were from the House of --  are from the House of Kloum Khun.  GRANT:  Q   You see there Juliette Joseph.  Did she hold the name  Kloum Khun?  A   Yes.  Q   And her sister and brother were from that house?  A   Yes.  COURT:  That's where Amelia was too?  WITNESS:  Yes.  COURT:  That's because of Amelia's house?  WITNESS:  Yes.  GRANT:  Q   But you see that Amelia is the sister of the former  Smogelgem, David McKenzie?  A   Yes.  Q   And this is an example of a close relationship?  A   Close relationship there.  It's the same as with that  Goohlaht/Caspit.  It's the same type of --  COURT:  Well, now I'm confused again because this would  suggest, then, that Amelia and David, who are brothers  and sisters, came from different houses, wouldn't it?  WITNESS:  It's -- I don't know why, but it is recognized.  GRANT:  Q   It's recognized what -- sorry -- that they're one  house or two houses?  A   They sit right next to each other in the feast.  They're equal rank.  Q   Now, going underneath Juliette, were you -- do you  know her children, Walter Joseph and Elsie Joseph?  A   Yes.  Q   And Walter Joseph married Louise George?  A   Um-hum.  Yes.  Q   And actually Walter and Elsie both live in Hagwilget  today?  A   Yes. 18027  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  MR. GRANT  45  46  47  THE COURT  And did you know Peter Grey, who married Bernadette  George?  Yes.  Do you know Elsie's children, Patricia, Herbert, Doug,  Shirley and Marjorie?  Yes.  I work with them.  And Patricia had a number of children all in the  house?  Um-hum.  Yes.  And Shirley -- it doesn't show, but did she -- does  she actually have three children?  Yes.  She has three children, but I don't know how  many boys and how many girls.  Okay.  Maybe a line could be -- could you just draw a  line down through and then a line across showing with  three lines down about the circular triangle, a line  down from Shirley Tait?  Now, Marjorie Tait had a  daughter, Audrey?  Um-hum.  And does Audrey have two children?  Audrey, I think she has three children also, but there  again I'm not too sure how many boys, how many girls.  Okay.  Now, on the same -- yes.  Could you just draw a  line under Audrey and then --  Yes.  You've done that?  Yes.  On the same page, page 2, if we go from the -- if we  go over, you see Johnny Mack.  Do you see him on the  left side about the middle?  Yeah.  And he was the person who died -- well, it shows --  '87.  -- April 2nd, '87.  And he was the former Kloum Khun,  eh?  Yes.  And his -- you knew Johnny?  Yes.  This is the same person you were referring to earlier?  Yes.  And his one wife was Esther and then he had a second  wife, Mable Michell?  Yes.  :  And he and Mable adopted Jacquline Tom into his  house; is that right?  It shows Jacquline Tom as being  adopted into Smogelgem.  :  Well, does it show that? 1802?  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GRANT:  THE COURT:  MR.  THE  MR.  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  THE  THE  MR.  Or should that be adopted into Mable's house?  You  see Jacquline Tom there, my lord.  She's adopted.  Yes.  But I'm not sure that it shows that she's  adopted into Smogelgem.  Okay.  Or I'm sorry.  Kloum Khun maybe.  Yes.  I should have said Kloum Khun.  Is that correct,  to have her adopted there?  Yes.  But it seems to me there's -- Sharon -- Sharon  is adopted by Mable and Johnny Mack, Mable Michell and  Johnny Mack.  Sharon --  Just a moment?  -- is on page 7.  Okay.  I'm sorry.  I've asked you another question.  Jacquline is -- is --  That's not correct?  No.  It should be over here where Sharon is and --  We take Jacquline out of page 2.  Yes.  Jacquline.  That's the wrong one there.  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  COURT:  WITNESS  GRANT:  Q   Who is it then?  A   Page 2, that should be Sharon.  She's over on page 7.  Q   Okay.  So Sharon Tom should be adopted by Johnny and  Mable?  A   Yes.  Q   And on page 7 of the same genealogy?  A  And Sharon is right under Mable Tom.  Q   You have Sharon and she should be -- that should be --  A   She's the one with her children should be over here  under Johnny Mack and Mable Michell.  Q   But she's on -- she was born into the same house?  A   Yes.  COURT:  Are you saying that page 2 should show Sharon in  place of Jacquline but still married to Edward with  those two children?  WITNESS:  Yes.  COURT:  That should all be transferred to those two?  WITNESS:  Yes.  COURT:  And the two children as well?  WITNESS:  Yes.  I just put "to page 2" here.  COURT:  Yes.  WITNESS:  And Jacquline should be put over here where Sharon  is .  COURT:  Jacquline should be over there?  WITNESS:  Yes.  I put "to page 7" under Jacquline.  COURT:  And what -- was Sharon adopted? 18029  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  2 THE COURT:  All right.  And Jacquline is the daughter of Mable  3 and Gabriel Louie?  4 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  5 THE COURT:  All right.  6 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  And so Sharon —  7 MR. GRANT:  8 Q   She's the natural daughter of Mable?  9 A   Natural daughter, yes.  10 Q   But she's moved over.  Now, was she adopted into --  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Which — into —  13 A   To Mable under —  14 Q   Into Mable's house?  15 A   She was adopted by Johnny Mack.  16 Q   Is she adopted into -- by Johnny Mack?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   So she still stays in the same house?  19 A   Yes.  They raised her.  2 0 Q   Johnny Mack is -- was Kloum Khun?  21 A   It's just that they raised her when she was a baby.  22 Q   Yes.  She didn't move out of -- into another house?  23 A   No.  Just that they raised her.  They adopted her.  24 Q   Fine.  I think in some cases, my lord, in some of the  25 evidence of other genealogies, that kind of transfer  26 hasn't been shown.  That clears it up.  27 Now, can you go to page 4 of this genealogy?  You  28 can put away page 1, but I'll be coming back -- all  29 the way back to page 2, but I'll start on page 4.  30 Now, you see at the top there Joe Brown, Tommy Brown  31 and Lucy Brown, Lucy Brown being Joseph Wachach's  32 wife?  33 A   Excuse me.  Could you repeat that, please?  34 Q   Do you see at the top of page 4 Joe Brown, Tommy and  35 Lucy Brown?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   Did you know those people?  38 A   Yes.  I knew them.  39 Q   Okay.  You knew them as being in which house?  4 0 A   Kloum Khun.  41 Q   Okay.  Go ahead.  Did you know Aseline Tommy, Lucy's  42 son -- her daughter, sorry, Aseline Tommy, who married  43 Louie Tommy?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   Okay.  46 A   Lucy -- Lucy was my great-grandmother.  47 Q   Lucy Brown was your great-grandmother? 18030  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A   Yes.  She was the one that lived right across from  Ceclia George's house in Hagwilget.  Q   And you knew her when you were growing up?  A   Yes.  Q   And you knew that she came from Kloum Khun's house?  A   Yes.  Q   I'd just like you to go and put pages 3 and 4 beside  each other.  Do you see there that Louie, Tommy and  Aseline Tommy are showing as having Camelia, Ceclia  and Johnny Tommy?  A   Yes.  Q   And going over to page 5 for one moment.  A   Ceclia -- I mean --  Q   Just can I finish this first?  And had Annie Tommy as  well, who became Annie Gagnon?  A  What page are you on?  Q   In the same line on page 5.  A   Yes.  Annie Gagnon.  Q   And did you know all of those children, Aseline and  Louie, Tommy?  A   Yes.  MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Now, you were going to say something about  Ceclia?  THE COURT:  Well, I'm sorry.  I'm just troubled here.  You said  that you knew all these people on page 4:  Joe Brown,  Tommy Brown and Lucy Brown?  THE WITNESS:  Yes.  THE COURT:  And then their -- Lucy and her husband are the  parents of your great-grandmother?  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  WITNESS  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  :  No.  Lucy Brown, she was my great-grandmother.  Oh, I see.  Lucy Brown at the very top.  She was your great-grandmother.  Yes.  All right.  THE  THE  MR.  Now, then we go down to the next line.  We have Louie  Tommy and Aseline Tommy.  And then their children are  Camelia -- Camelia looks like she was born in 1910.  Is that --  A   Yes.  COURT:  Is that 1910?  WITNESS:  Yes.  GRANT:  Q   Died in 1983?  A   Yes.  Q   Your mother -- your great-grandmother lived -- was  quite old when you knew her?  A   Yes.  I was very young when I saw her, but I used to 18031  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 go to her house every morning and sweep the floor for  2 her, so I knew her.  3 Q   Were Joe Brown and Tommy Brown alive when you were  4 very young?  5 A   Yes.  We used to go visit them a lot.  6 Q   Okay.  7 A  My grandmother and I.  8 Q   Now, what I'd like to do, if I could, is just take you  9 to Camelia Tommy.  Now, did you know --  10 A   Camelia, yes.  11 Q   On page 3?  12 A   Yes.  She was married to my uncle.  13 Q   That's Matthew Wilson?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And did you know her children who are shown on pages 3  16 and 4, that is Kathryn Wilson, Augustine Morris,  17 Sylvester Wilson the first one, Sylvester Wilson the  18 second one, Michael Wilson and Veronica Wilson?  Did  19 you know them?  20 A   I didn't know that first one.  21 Q   The first Sylvester Wilson?  22 A   I think he died when I was a baby and so with that  23 Lawrence Wilson.  I didn't know them.  But I know the  24 rest of them.  There was another one too, I think,  25 that died when I was a baby, Veronica.  26 Q   Now, you see Kathryn Wilson.  You knew her -- you know  27 her?  She's still alive?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   And if you combine pages 2 and 3, the second line from  30 the bottom on pages 2 and 3, starting Sam Wilson,  31 Barbara Wilson, Shirley Wilson, James, Patrick,  32 Leonard, Nancy and Charles, do you know all of  33 those -- all of Kathryn's children?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And they're all members of this house?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   Now, which of the two would they be sitting with,  38 Kloum Khun or Smogelgem?  3 9 A   Kloum Khun.  40 Q   Kloum Khun.  Okay.  Do you know all of Barbara's  41 children?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And all of Shirley's children?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   All of Nancy's children?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And they're also members of the House of Kloum Khun? 18032  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  THE COURT  8  MR. GRANT  9  THE COURT  10  MR. GRANT  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  Yes.  You can put aside page 2 if you wish now.  We won't be  referring back to it.  Going on to page 3, Augustine  Morris is the wife of Roy Morris, who holds the name  Woos?  Yes.  I'm sorry.  What page are you on?  Page 3.  I just put aside page 2.  Yes.  Thank you.  And you know all of their children who are shown  there?  Yes.  And you know that Bernice has two children, their  daughter Bernice has two children?  Yes.  And they are all in which of the two houses?  Kloum Khun.  Okay.  Now, you can put aside page 3 now and we'll go  to pages 4 and 5.  You see Ceclia Tommy married Sam  Brown and had a son, Adam Brown, who was married to  Irene Alfred on page 4?  Yes.  And you know Adam Brown?  Yes.  You know him as being in this house?  Yes.  And Joseph Nikal -- Ceclia married Joseph Nikal and  had Steven Tommy, Selina, Abel, Judy, Emil, and I'm  going to page 5, Moses, Theresa, Herbert and Tony  Nikal?  Yes.  And you know -- you know all of those children --  Yes.  -- as being in this house?  Yes.  And Selina -- you know Selina and Judy's children?  Yes.  And that Judy's daughter has a couple of boys?  Children, yes.  And you know Theresa has four children?  Yes.  Now, these children of Ceclia, would it be right to  say they are in Kloum Khun?  Yes.  And also their children and grandchildren?  Yes. 18033  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  GRANT  3  4  5  THE  COURT  6  MR.  GRANT  7  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  GRANT  10  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  GRANT  13  Q  14  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  :  Just a minute.  I haven't found Cecilia yet.  :  Oh, Cecilia, my lord, is on page 4.  She's higher  up, right under Louie Tommy.  I just went through her  children and grandchildren on page 4.  :  Yes.  :  The third line down, Ceclia Tommy married Sam Brown  and Joseph Nikal.  :  Oh, I see.  Yes.  All right.  :  And I just was leading the witness through her  children.  :  Thank you.  Now, you can put aside page 4 if you wish, Ms.  Wilson-Kenni, and I'll deal with page 5.  You've  already described that you knew Annie Tommy, the  sister of Ceclia, who married Louie Gagnon, and that's  Annie Gagnon who's still alive today; is that right?  Yes.  And you know all of her children starting on the line  with Larry Tommy on the left on page 5 and going right  through to Antoinette Gagnon?  Okay.  Yes.  And you know that Jane Tommy has a number of children?  Yes.  And you know those children?  Yes.  And you know Lorraine's children and Patricia's  children?  Yes.  And you know Antoinette has one child, Denee Frank  Austin?  Denee.  D-e-n-e-e.  Now -- and Annie's children and  grandchildren and great-grandchildren, which house are  they in?  Kloum Khun.  Okay.  Can we go to page 6 then?  This would be  dealing with pages 6 and 7.  You see on that middle  line Mary Charles on page 6.  And she's -- she had a  sister, Elsie Charles.  Did you know Mary Charles?  Yes.  And she's -- and do you know Mary Charles' children  starting on the line with Emma Joseph through to David  Joseph on page 6?  Yes.  And what house are they in?  This is from Smogelgem. 18034  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  MR.  GRANT  11  12  13  14  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  GRANT  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  MR.  GRANT  30  THE  COURT  31  32  MR.  GRANT  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  MR.  GRANT  44  45  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  GRANT  Okay.  And have you heard of Mary Charles' mother,  Adele Charlie, and her grandmother, Annie Alexie?  Yes.  I've only heard of him.  I didn't know them.  You didn't know them.  Yes.  Okay.  Now -- and did you  know Thomas Tom, the husband of Elsie Charles?  Um-hum.  Had you heard of Elsie Charles' children, Evelyn and  Michael?  Yes.  But Michael is dead.  :  Okay.  Now, sorry, my lord.  I'm going to have to,  because for convenience, just take you back for a  moment to page 2 if I may.  And I'm going to deal with  page 2 and page 7 and 8 together, my lord.  There was  a reference I have to go back to.  :  I can get rid of page 6?  Yes.  I just need page 2.  Do you have page 2?  Um-hum.  You see on the left about the fourth line down the  daughter of Celina Francis is Mary Francis on page 2?  I'm looking on page 2.  Do you see that?  Yes.  And you knew Celina Francis.  Did you also know Mary  Francis?  I knew Celina Francis.  Yes?  But somehow I don't recall Mary Francis, although I  know that she was the mother of Mable and Art Tom.  :  Okay.  Now, if you look at page 7 --  :  Excuse me for a moment.  All right.  Thank you, Mr.  Grant.  Is the Mary Francis referred to on the top of page 7  near the right-hand side the same as Mary Francis, the  daughter of Celina Francis?  Yes.  And so -- and you knew, you said, Arthur Tom?  Yes.  And Mable Tom?  Yes.  And you know them as grandchildren of Celina Francis?  Yes.  :  Okay.  I don't need page 2 any further.  Page 7 and  8 is a continuation of page 2 because of space, my  lord.  Now --  :  I'm sorry.  Page?  :  You see Mary Francis, it says, from page 2. 18035  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 THE COURT:  You say page 7 is a continuation of page 2, is it?  2 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  You see Mary Francis on page 2.  It says P7.  3 Just so that you have that.  4 THE COURT:  Thank you.  5 MR. GRANT:  6 Q   Now, you know Mary Francis' children, Patrick Pierre,  7 Arthur Tom, Mable Tom and Eddie Tom?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   Okay.  And who -- what name does Patrick Pierre hold  10 today?  11 A   He's Kloum Khun.  12 THE COURT:  Sorry?  13 THE WITNESS:  Kloum Khun.  14 THE COURT:  Patrick Pierre?  15 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  16 THE COURT  17 MR. GRANT  18 THE COURT  That's not the name that's given him here, is it  9  In the pleadings?  No.  On page 7.  19 THE WITNESS:  That's his name before Kloum Khun.  2 0 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  21 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  22 MR. GRANT:  23 Q   Now, you knew -- you know -- you knew Mable Tom, who  24 married Gabriel Louie?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And you know that you personally knew Vina Louie,  27 their daughter?  2 8 A   Um-hum.  29 Q   And that she had children who are within this house?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And you knew that Vina had two brothers and three  32 sisters, one of those sisters being Jacquline Tom, the  33 other Sharon Tom, the other Debbie Louie?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And they are all in this house?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   Okay.  Now, you knew Mable -- you knew Eddie Tom, but  38 you didn't personally know Margaret Tom, who is  39 deceased?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Who married Tony Andrew?  42 A   No.  43 Q   But did you —  44 A   I know of her, but I haven't seen her for a long time.  45 Q   Did you know she had children?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And what house are those children in? 18036  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  MR.  GRANT  3  4  THE  COURT  5  THE  REGIS  6  7  8  MR.  GRANT  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  THE  COURT  41  MR.  GRANT  42  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  GRANT  45  THE  COURT  46  THE  WITNE  47  In Kloum Khun.  I'd ask that that be marked as the next exhibit, my  lord.  Yes.  That will be —  ?RAR:  1065.  (EXHIBIT 1065:  Genealogy - Smogelgem Kloum Khun dated  June 24, 198 9)  I am tendering the genealogy of Woos, the House of  Cass Yegh, C-a-s-s -- C-a-s-s is one word, Y-e-g-h,  second word.  Now, I'd like to refer you to start on page 4 of  this one.  We'll go back from that.  You have heard of  Round Lake Tommy?  Um-hum.  And he holds the name Wah Tah Kwets -- or held the  name Wah Tah Kwets and he was married to Annie Joseph?  Yes.  And you heard of Annie Joseph?  Yes.  Did you know Sarah Michell, the child of Annie Joseph  and Annie Michell?  You see where I am?  Yes.  Did you know Sarah Michell?  She married Round Lake  Tommy?  I knew of her, yes.  It's -- Sarah Michell is Mable  Forsythe's mother.  Okay.  Now, going along the line on page 4 to the  left, you see Madeline Tommy, who married Jimmy  Baptiste.  Did you know who Jimmy Baptiste was?  What page are you on, Peter?  I'm on page 4.  Okay.  Did you know who Jimmy Baptiste was?  Do you know Paul  Baptiste?  I think he's Paul Baptiste's brother.  And how did you know Paul Baptiste?  Paul Baptiste was my -- my grandfather, my  grandmother's first husband.  Just a minute.  I don't see Paul.  There is no Paul.  She's referred to Jimmy Baptiste.  It's the brother of Paul.  Oh, I see.  Now, if you go back -- if you just put page 3 --  Paul was your grandfather?  S:  Yes.  Well, he was married to my grandmother for a  short time. 18037  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  ]  MR. GRANT  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  If you just go back along there, Jimmy -- Madeline  Tommy had a sister, Monica Tommy, and on page 3 and on  page 2 a sister, Theresa Tommy, and on page 1 a  sister, Angeline Tommy.  Did you hear of those  sisters?  I'm looking at page --  Yes.  Okay.  Now -- now, I can -- I'll go back to page 1.  Angeline Tommy was married to Sam Brown, who is  deceased, and they had a number of children, including  George Brown?  Yes.  And did you know George Brown?  Yes.  I knew him.  He was a friend of mine.  And he was married to Jean Thomas?  Yes.  And they had another -- he had a brother, Jimmy Brown?  Yes.  Who was adopted into another house?  Yes.  Did you know of that adoption?  Yes.  He's Madeek.  Okay.  He holds the name Madeek?  Yes.  Okay.  And then there was a brother, Jeff Brown --  Yes.  -- that you knew and a brother, Tommy Brown --  Yes.  -- that you knew?  Yes.  Now, did you know that they had brothers and sisters  who you didn't know personally but you knew of?  Yes.  Raymond, Becky, Simon, Annie, Alex, Richard, William?  Yes.  And on page 2, Stanley?  Um-hum.  Okay.  And did you know what house George Brown was  from and his brothers and sisters?  Do you know what  house he's from?  Independent of this, do you know  what house George Brown was from?  Woos .  Yes?  Why?  Well, I just --  It's just Jimmy that was adopted, not anybody else.  No.  I understand that.  But you knew that George was 1803?  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  a member of the House of Woos?  A   Yes.  Q   As were his brothers and sisters?  A   Um-hum.  Q   And his sister's children; is that right?  A   Yes.  Q   Now, had you heard on page 2 of the Luggies?  A   I've heard of them.  Q   And do you know which -- this is Theresa and Alec  Luggi's children.  Have you heard of them being in  this house?  A   Yes.  I've heard of him.  I don't know them.  Q   Now, if you look on page 2 and 3 together, you see  that Monica Tommy and Peter Salice had two daughters,  Betty Joseph and Margaret Joseph.  Did you know Betty  Joseph, who married Arthur Tom on page 2?  A   Yes.  Q   And did you know that they had -- that she has those  children and that they're members of this house?  A   Yes.  Q   Okay.  And that her daughter, Bernadine, has three  children who are members of this house?  A   Um-hum.  Q   Is that right?  A   Yes.  Q   You know that?  A   Yes.  COURT:  I haven't found Bernadine yet.  GRANT:  Bernadine is the second-last line from the bottom on  page 2, my lord, under Betty Joseph.  COURT:  Oh, yes.  GRANT:  Q   I was just referring the witness to her children.  And  it shows that Margaret Joseph married Sam Dennis.  Do  you know if Sam Dennis is related to Florence Hall?  Yes.  And how are they related?  I think -- I think that was her brother.  MR.  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  A  Q  A  Q  A  GRANT:  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  GRANT:  Q   And Florence Hall is the present holder of the name  Her brother?  I think so.  :  Okay.  :  I'm sorry.  Brother to Kweese.  Sam Dennis is George Hall's brother?  Yes. 18039  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Kweese?  2 A Yes.  3 Q Now, referring to their children, do you know their  4 children, Tina, Doreen, Harry, John, Sam, Minnie,  5 Ruby, Alice, Agnes and Leonard?  These are the  6 children of Margaret and Sam?  7 A Yes.  8 Q Do you know all of those children?  9 A Yes.  10 Q Okay.  And Tina's —  11 A Tina is married to my brother.  12 Q Leonard?  13 A Yes.  14 Q And you know all of your nephews and nieces are shown  15 there?  16 A Yes.  17 THE COURT:  Tina's married to your brother?  18 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  19 MR. GRANT:  20 Q That's Leonard Austin.  That's just on page 3 there.  21 A And Harry is married to my sister.  22 Q That's Harry Dennis?  23 A Yes.  24 Q And Ida is your sister?  25 A Yes.  2 6 Q And do you know Doreen Dennis, who married Jim Angus?  27 A Yes.  2 8 Q And they have children?  29 A Yes.  30 Q And do you know Minnie has three children?  31 A Yes.  32 Q Ruby and Alice and Agnes all have children that are --  33 as are shown there?  34 A Yes.  35 Q And they're all members of this house?  3 6 A Yup.  37 Q Now, I should say just one thing.  It shows Tina here  38 as being adopted.  Do you know anything of that?  39 A She's —  40 Q Tina, Crystal?  41 A She's -- she and Crystal was adopted by House of  42 Hagwilnegh by -- by Charles Austin.  43 Q And did you witness that?  44 A Yes.  45 Q You were present at that feast?  46 A Yes.  47 Q Now, I'm going over to page 4 again.  And you see 18040  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  MR. GRANT  20  THE COURT  21  22  THE WITNE  23  THE COURT  24  MR. GRANT  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  47  under Jimmy Baptiste, your grandmother's brother, and  Madeline Tommy there's a number of children there.  Did you know --  What page are you on?  Page 4.  Okay.  Did you know Peter Baptiste, the child of Madeline and  Jimmy?  I think that's only one that I know out of that.  That's the only one you knew personally?  Personally, yes, but I just know of the others.  I  didn't know them personally.  You know of the others although you don't know them  personally?  Yes.  And you know which house they belong to?  You know  that they are all in this house?  Yes.  :  Okay.  :  Does that show that Peter's twin brother died at  birth?  3S:  Yes.  :  Thank you.  Now, if you combine pages 4 and 5, you see that Annie  Joseph had a brother, Francis Lake Mathew Sam, on page  5, Miss Wilson-Kenni, pages 4 and 5?  Do you follow?  Yes.  Is that Francis Lake Mathew Sam also known as Nora Lee  Mathew Sam?  Yes.  And have you heard of him?  Yes.  Did you know him?  No.  Okay.  And --  But he was Gyolugyet.  He held the name Gyolugyet?  Um-hum.  So -- and you've heard him described that way in the  feast?  Yes.  Now, going over to page 8 -- and keep page 4 and 8  beside each other.  Just slide them along if you can.  There's another sister, Madeline Sam, who married  Antoine Jimmy.  Have you heard of Madeline Sam on the  top line on page 8? 18041  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  MR. GRANT  THE  THE  Yes.  I didn't know her though, but I knew her.  Well, just be clear.  You didn't know her personally?  No.  I didn't know her personally, but I've heard of  her.  But you've heard of her.  Now, if you combine  pages -- you can back to 4, 5 and 6.  I think if you're going to go back that far, Mr.  Grant, we'll adjourn for lunch.  Certainly.  I take it we're running considerably behind, are we?  We're running further behind than I had hoped.  Well, I -- counsel can talk about it.  I'm quite  happy to stay late this evening and I think we should  if necessary.  The next witness Mr. Rush will be leading.  I will  raise it with him.  We certainly want to complete  these two witnesses today.  Thank you.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until  two o'clock.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings transcribed to the best  of my skill and ability.  Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  COURT: 18042  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED AFTER LUNCHEON RECESS)  THE  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  REGISTRAR  COURT  GRANT  Q  Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, and  - I think I just moved  Yes .  I was  6 in front of  Order in court.  Mr. Grant.  Thank you.  You have Woos in front of you,  I was referring you to pages --  back to a sequencing, pages 4, 5 and 6.  just commencing -- do you have 4, 5 and  you?  A   Yes.  Q   I was just commencing to talk about Sarah Michell and  Round Lake Tommy's children.  Now, those children are  set out on pages 4 through 6, and include Alice --  going from left to right on page 4, third line from  the bottom, Alice Joseph, her sister Hazel, a brother  Michell and Mary Joseph, all of whom are deceased,  Joseph Joseph, who is deceased, Leonard Joseph, Mabel  Joseph and Mary Ann Joseph.  And did you personally  know Leonard Mabel and Mary Ann Joseph?  A   Yes.  Q   And you knew that they had older brothers and sisters,  as set out?  A   Yes.  Q   And they were all in the House of Woos?  A   Yes.  Q   Now, Hazel on page 4, Hazel and Francis appear to have  a number of children, including Doreen Michell, who  married a Blackwater.  Is that the son of Bill  Blackwater that she married?  A   Yes.  GRANT:   Do you follow me, My Lord?  COURT:  Yes.  GRANT:  Q   And he holds -- he's a Gitksan chief who holds the  name Baskyelaxha?  A   His father, yes.  Q   His father does?  A   Yes.  Q   And do you -- and have you heard of these children of  Hazel Joseph's:  Mary Michell, Edna Michell, Wally,  Bill, et cetera?  A   I don't know them personally.  Q   But have you heard of them?  A   Yes.  Q   You know they are members of this House?  A   Yes. 18043  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   Okay.  Now, going to page 5 and 6, you have Mabel  2 Joseph and Alfred Forsythe?  3 A   Uh-huh.  4 Q   You know Mabel Joseph, don't you?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   She's now Mabel Forsythe?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And she has children, Lucy, Alfred, Rick and Nancy  9 Forsythe?  10 A   Uh-huh.  11 Q   And you know those children?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And Lucy Forsythe married Alphonse Gagnon, and you  14 know her four children -- the four children of Lucy?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And she's -- you personally know those children?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And finally Mary Ann Joseph on page 6.  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   Married Dick Alec?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And they have four children, and do you know of those  23 children?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And they are all in this House?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Just one moment.  My Lord, I don't believe I have  28 dealt with the children of Theresa Jimmy and Moses  29 David.  That's on page 7, Theresa Jimmy.  I have dealt  30 with Theresa Jimmy and Moses, but not their children.  31 I just don't want to repeat.  If you just put page 6  32 and 7 and 8 together, just the -- those three pages.  33 We are through with pages 4 and 5.  Do you have that,  34 Mrs. Wilson-Kenni?  35 A   Uh-huh.  36 Q   And you see Theresa Jimmy, who married Moses David,  37 and that was the Moses David who held the name Samoox;  38 is that right?  39 A   Yes.  4 0 Q   And you knew both of them, you knew Moses and you knew  41 of his wife?  42 A   I just knew of her.  I didn't know her.  43 Q   Okay.  And they had a daughter Sophie David, who died,  44 and a son Peter David, who married Rita Tom.  Do you  45 know Peter David?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And a daughter Mary David.  Do you know her, who 18044  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  married Art Forsythe?  A   No, I don't remember her at all.  But I know of her.  Q   Okay.  Now looking down to her children.  This is on  pages 6 and 7 there, the bottom line.  You see Art  Forsythe junior?  A   I know of some of these children.  Q   Okay.  And do you know Theresa Forsythe?  A   Yes.  Q   And there is Henry, Frank, Mary and Mark Forsythe?  A   Uh-huh.  Q   Do you either know them or know of them?  A   I know of them.  Q   Okay.  And are they, to your knowledge, members of  this House?  A   Yes.  Q   Now, going along that line.  Do you know that Moses  and Theresa had a number of other children, the  youngest of which was Madeline David?  A   Yes.  Q   On page 8?  A   Yes.  Q   And do you know Madeline David personally?  A   I know Madeline personally.  Q   And you know of the other children?  A   Yes.  Q   And they are all members of this House?  A   Yes.  Q   Okay.  And on page 8 and 9.  You have already referred  to Susan Jimmy, married to Jimmy Skin?  A   Yes.  Q   And her children are members of this House?  A   Yes.  Q   Okay.  And you have referred earlier to Emma Jimmy, I  believe, on page 9?  A   Uh-huh.  Q   Frank Jimmy's sister.  And did you know that Emma  Jimmy's daughter was married to Jeffery Brown on page  9.  Underneath Emma, Jimmy and Walter Williams there  is Francis Williams?  A   Yes.  Q   And you personally knew Jeffery?  A   Yes.  Q   And you knew of his wife Francis?  A   I knew of his wife, yes.  Q   And did you know of Evelyn Williams, the other  daughter of Emma and Walter Williams?  A   No. 18045  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q Okay.  Now, Emma Jimmy from this married twice.  She  2 married Walter Williams and then Jeffery Williams?  3 A Uh-huh.  4 Q Is that correct according to your knowledge?  5 A Yes.  6 Q And with respect to her marriage to Jeffery --  7 A Oh, yes, Emma Jeffery, I know her.  When I look at  8 the -- Jeff Williams was her husband too.  9 Q Right.  Okay.  10 A Right.  11 Q And Emma and Jeffery had a number of children shown on  12 page 8 and 9?  13 A Uh-huh.  14 Q Did you know those children, or know of them?  15 A I know -- I personally know Janet.  16 Q And Janet Williams is married to George Holland, whose  17 been a translator in this case?  18 A Yes.  19 Q And you know their two children Anna and Olivia, and  20 they are members of that House?  21 A Yes.  22 Q And do you know of Janet's sisters and brothers?  23 A I know of them.  I don't know them personally.  24 Q Okay.  And they are all members of this House?  25 A Yes.  2 6 Q Okay.  Now, far over Frank Jimmy and Emma Jimmy's  27 sister is Elsie Jimmy.  This is on page 9.  And do you  28 know -- have you heard of Elsie Jimmy and Frank Alec  29 senior, who have a number of children, including  30 Gordon Alec, Raymond, Frank, Allan, Peter, Archie and  31 Sue Ann.  Have you heard of them?  32 A I have only heard of them, yes.  33 Q Okay.  Do you know of them -- of those children as  34 being members of this House?  35 A Yes.  36 Q Okay.  I would like you to go to page 10 and 11.  Now,  37 on page 10 you see Gordon Hall.  He's the third line  38 down on the left-hand side, married to Florence Dennis  39 on page 10.  40 A 10, yes.  41 Q Okay.  42 A Uh-huh.  43 Q You see Gordon Hall.  Do you know Gordon, who is  44 married to Florence Dennis?  45 A Yes.  4 6 Q And he holds what name today?  47 A Gyolugyet. 18046  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   And in what House is that name?  2 A   That's —  3 Q   Among the Wet'suwet'en of course.  4 A   That's Woos.  5 Q   Okay.  And do you know, up above on the top line, Big  6 Seymour, Gylogyet?  7 A   Uh-huh.  8 Q   Did you know him?  9 A   No.  10 Q   But you knew of him?  11 A   Just heard of him, yes.  12 Q   And do you know what name he held?  13 A   Gylogyet.  14 Q   Okay.  And from what you -- and was he related, Gordon  15 Hall, as shown there, that is the -- the brother of  16 Gordon's grandmother?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   Okay.  And Gordon's mother, Rebecca Guxsan, she was  19 married to -- or her father was Guxsan.  Is that a  20 Gitksan person?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And Rebecca married William Hall and Jack Joseph?  23 A   Uh-huh.  24 Q   But that reference to Elizabeth Thomas, that's really  25 another Jack Joseph's wife?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   That should really be deleted, My Lord, Elizabeth  28 Thomas on the top line.  Just delete it.  It doesn't  29 fit --  30 A   It shouldn't be on there.  31 Q   It shouldn't be on this genealogy.  32 Now, you see that according to the genealogy,  33 Gordon has a sister Jessie who married Peter Alec, and  34 they had a number of children.  Did you know of  35 Gordon's nephews and nieces that are set out there,  36 starting with David Alec?  37 A   Yes, I know him.  38 Q   You know David personally?  39 A   Yes.  4 0 Q   Do you know Joyce Alec?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And do you know of the others?  Have you heard of the  43 other brothers and sisters of David and Joyce Alec?  44 A   Yes, I only heard of them.  I don't know of them  45 personally.  46 Q   Okay.  Now, you see Joyce Alec has a number of  47 children? 18047  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  THE COURT  22  MR. GRANT  23  24  THE COURT  25  MR. GRANT  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Uh-huh.  And do you know Darlene Glaim?  Yes.  Married to Lyle Bucholtz?  Yes.  And you know Katrina Bucholtz and Michell Bucholtz?  Yes.  That's B-u-c-h-o-l-t-z.  Glaim is G-1-a-i-m.  And do you know that Darlene has a number of brothers  and sisters, as set out there?  Yes.  And they are all members of the House of Woos?  Yes.  Okay.  And do you know that of the -- that Annie Alec  has children?  I know you don't know them personally,  but do you know of them?  Yes.  And they are members of this House?  Yes.  Okay.  :  I haven't found Annie Alec.  :  Annie Alec would be on the same side as Danny Alec,  on the right-hand side of page 10.  :  Oh, yes.  All right.  And do you know of Mary Alec, David Alec's sister?  I don't know her, no.  You don't know her personally?  No.  But did you know -- did you know of her children, that  David had another sister besides Joyce and Annie who  had children?  Yes.  And that those children are all -- or that child,  Betty, is in the House?  Yes.  And her children are in the House.  Now, I said  Annie -- I referred to Annie's children, and they go  onto page 11, including Linda Stewart.  Now, if you go  over to page 11, you see on the bottom -- I shouldn't  say on the bottom.  It's in the middle, on the lower  line you see Roy Morris and above him Topley Matthew  Sam?  Yes.  You see that?  Yes.  Now, what -- how was Roy Morris connected to 18048  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  THE  COURT  38  MR.  GRANT  39  THE  COURT  40  MR.  GRANT  41  42  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  GRANT  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  this House?  He was adopted by Topley Matthew Sam.  And Topley Matthew Sam died in 1977?  Yes.  And you knew him?  I didn't know him personally.  I have heard quite a  bit about him.  Okay.  Now, Topley Matthew Sam, is he different than  Nora Lee Matthew Sam?  Yes.  Okay.  Now -- and Roy is the present holder of Woos?  Yes.  And what name did Topley Matthew Sam hold?  Gylogyet and Woos.  Now, you see that Topley Matthew Sam, according to  this, has a brother Thomas and a sister Theresa.  Did  you know that David Dennis was married to Topley  Matthew Sam's sister?  Yes.  And David Dennis, of course, is the person on the  Samoox genealogy, the first one you dealt with this  morning?  Yes.  And above Topley Matthew Sam and Theresa and Thomas,  there was Old Sam and Annie Namox, Annie having died  in 1923 before your time.  Were you told of Old Sam  and Annie Namox?  Yes.  And Annie Namox was from the House of Woos?  Yes.  And then there is a brother of Annie Namox, Tyee Lake,  David Francis.  Have you heard of him through the  feast?  Yes.  And what name did he hold?  Woos .  Where is Tyee Lake?  Are you asking the place --  Yes.  The person Annie Namox up on the second from the top  line.  Going onto the right, Sarah John and Tyee Lake,  David Francis on page 11.  :  Oh, yes.  Right.  Now, did you know or hear of John Baptiste?  Yes.  And do you know John Baptiste's second wife, Clara 18049  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  THE  COURT  7  MR.  GRANT  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  MR.  GRANT  14  15  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  GRANT  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  GRANT  20  Q  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  GRANT  45  46  47  Baptiste?  She's still alive?  Yes, she is.  She is.  Now, how do you know John Baptiste?  Well, he's -- John Baptiste that was father to Paul.  Okay.  :  Paul Baptiste?  Paul Baptiste who had married your grandmother?  Yes.  And was John Baptiste --  He's the one that fought for his land.  That's the  same John Baptiste.  :   Okay.  And I believe, just for reference, John  Baptiste that's referred to, amongst others, in Johnny  David's evidence about his.  Yes.  That incident.  We have had several references to him.  You have.  And then you see that the parents, the  mother of John Baptiste and Annie Namox and Tyee Lake  David Francis was Lahall.  Did your hear of that name  and of that person?  Only heard of it, yes.  Okay.  And that was a person that was in your -- in  this House?  Yes.  And has been referred to in the feast?  Yes.  Now, if you keep page 10 and 11 together, it indicates  that Lahall was an aunt of Big Seymour, Gylogyet.  Is  that correct?  Just putting 10 and 11 together,  following that top line back.  Can you repeat your question.  Okay.  You have those two together?  Yes.  It appears that Lahall is an aunt of Big Seymour,  Gylogyet.  Yes.  So should there be a circle in that corner on the  upper left?  Yes.  :  Where?  :  On page 10, My Lord, you have the top line going off  to the right.  Where that right angle is made, there  should be a circle there.  If you connect those two  lines together, you see that the others have it, and 18050  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  then that -- there is some matrilineal link there.  It's not reflected --  THE COURT:  You mean extending beyond the Lahall?  MR. GRANT:  No, on page 10.  If you go back.  You hold it this  way.  Above Big Seymour and Guxsan, that line going up  and then off to the right.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. GRANT:  Then a circle should be there.  THE COURT:  Oh.  MR. GRANT:  Can you just mark that accordingly on the exhibit.  THE COURT:  We don't know who that is?  MR. GRANT:  Yes.  Q   You don't know who that person was?  A   No.  Q   But you did hear of that relationship?  A   Yes.  MR. GRANT:   Okay.  Okay.  I would ask that this be marked as  the next exhibit number.  THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1066.  (EXHIBIT NO. 1066 - JUNE 24, 1989 GENEAOLOGY  OF THE HOUSE OF WOOS - CASS YEGH)  MR. GRANT:  That's the June 24th, 1989 genealogy of the House of  Woos, C-a-s-s, one word, Y-e-g-h, second word.  Q   Do you know what Cass Yegh, what that means?  A   Grizzly House.  THE COURT:  I'm sorry?  THE WITNESS:  Grizzly House.  THE COURT:  Grizzly House?  THE WITNESS:  Yes.  MR. GRANT:  It's the last of the genealogies I wish to deal with  today, My Lord.  THE COURT:  1066?  THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, My Lord.  This next one, Mr. Grant, is this  all one you have passed me?  MR. GRANT:  No, I have given you two.  I just took the staples  out of it.  If you have any difficulty, I will give it  back to you.  There is a genealogy of 12 pages.  Q   Now, I would like to turn you to page 2 to start with,  Mrs. Wilson-Kenni.  And you see there in the middle  line going off to the right the name Sylvester  William?  A   Yes.  Q   And he was the former holder of the name Hagwilneghl?  A   Yes.  Q   And he died April 9th — or May 9th, 1987? 18051  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  I'm sorry, you said on page 2?  On page 2.  The line going off to the right?  3S:  No, September.  It was September?  Uh-huh.  I'm sorry, that would be September 5th, '87.  Yes.  :  I'm sorry, it's not at the right-hand end of that  line.  It's the left-hand end.  MR. GRANT:  The left-hand end and the line going off to the  right.  I have it.  September 5th of '87.  All right.  And who is the present holder of that name,  Hagwilneghl?  Ron Mitchell.  Is Ron younger than yourself?  Yes.  Okay.  Have you attended more feasts than Ron?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, you knew Sylvester, and did you know both  his wives, Elizabeth Holland and Lucy Holland?  Yes.  And did you know his brother Joe Nikal, his sister  Elizabeth Nikal?  Yes.  And his sister Jeannie Nikal?  Yes.  And going onto page 3 along the same line, his sister  Agnes?  Yes.  Clara and Hazel Nikal?  Yes.  And going onto page 4 on the same line.  Hazel was  married once, once to Robert Tait, and that's  reflected on page 4; is that right?  Yes.  And you knew Robert Tait?  Yes.  And Flossie Nikal you knew, who was married to Bill  Walters?  Yes.  Okay.  1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  GRANT  3  THE  COURT  4  THE  WITNE  5  MR.  GRANT  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  THE  COURT  11  12  MR.  GRANT  13  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  GRANT  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  GRANT  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q 18052  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32    MR. MAC]  33    MR. GRA1  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  Bill is from our House.  From the House of Spookw?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, going to -- I'll come back, but going to  page 3 for a moment.  Did you know of Abraham Nikal,  who died in 1970?  Yes.  And was that Charles?  Yes.  And they were the parents of Sylvester William?  Yes.  And you knew that?  Yes.  And going along to page 3 and 4 on that upper line --  the second from the top, My Lord. Lizette Charles had  a sister, Elizabeth, who married Alec Tiljoe, was his  first wife and died in 1918. Did you hear of her? I  am on page 4, along the same line as Lizette Charles.  She had a sister Elizabeth?  Yes.  And she was Alec Tiljoe's first wife?  I heard of her.  She died in 1918.  And did you hear of Mary Caspit,  who married Abel Joseph as one of Lizette's other  sisters and an aunt of Sylvester William?  Yes.  And going onto page 5, on that same line.  You heard  of Christine Charles, or did you know Christine  Charles who married John Dominic?  Oh, yes.  Okay.  \FZIE:  Heard or know?  You knew Christine Charles?  Yes.  You knew John Dominic who died recently?  Yes.  Now, if I go back to page 3.  I am going to page 1, 2  and 3 now.  I'll start at page 3.  Did you hear of --  I think you already referred to the fact that you  heard of William Caspit, who died before your time?  Uh-huh.  And A'Kase, A apostrophe K-a-s-e, who -- and Dennis  Behn?  Dennis Behn.  B-e-h-n.  Dennis Behn was the mother of Little Dennis  Michell? 18053  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A Right.  2 Q And you knew Little Dennis Michell, or knew of him?  3 A Of him.  4 Q Okay.  And did you know that Dennis Behn, the same  5 mother was also the mother of Lizette Charles, and the  6 grandmother of Sylvester William?  7 A Uh-huh.  8 Q And Dennis Behn, going back to page 2, had a sister  9 Betsy and another sister who was the grandmother of --  10 the mother of Susan Caspit?  11 A Uh-huh.  12 Q Who married August Pete?  13 A Yes.  14 Q And did you know August Pete?  15 A No.  16 Q Did you know of him?  17 A Yes.  18 Q And what chiefs' name did he hold?  19 A Kweese.  20 Q And did you know his children Sam Pete -- I'm on page  21 1, My Lord.  22 A Yes.  23 Q Sam Pete, Charlie Pete, Joseph Pete, Ester Pete, Moses  24 Pete, Mabel Pete, Agnes and Connie Pete?  25 A Yes.  26 Q And did you know of the other children, that is  27 Thomas, John -- Thomas and John?  28 A Yes.  29 Q Okay.  Now, you knew that Ester Pete married Jimmy  30 Joseph?  31 A Yes.  32 Q And they had children.  How do you know Jimmy Joseph?  33 Is that Jimmy Joseph a relation of yours?  34 A No.  35 Q Okay.  There is a Jimmy Joseph that's a relation of  36 yours, but it's a different one; is that right?  37 A Yes.  38 Q Now, Ester, Pete and Jimmy had children.  Did you know  39 those children that are set out on page 1 and 2, that  40 is Betty, Florence, Rose and Doreen Joseph?  41 A Yes.  42 Q And did you know that Betty had a large number of  43 children who were all in this House?  44 A Yes.  45 Q And did you know that Florence had a large number of  46 children all in this House?  47 A Yes. 18054  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q And Rose had children in this House?  2 A Yes.  3 Q And Doreen had children in this House?  4 A Yes.  5 Q Now, in particular did you know Don Naziel?  6 A Yes.  7 Q One of Rose's children?  8 A He just had a heart transplant, just recently.  9 Q Okay.  10 A In Edmonton.  11 Q Okay.  Now, with respect to Betty's children, do you  12 know Martina Pete and Francis Namox?  This is page 1.  13 A Yes.  14 Q And they have three children who are in this House?  15 A Yes.  16 Q And you know those children?  17 A Yes.  18 Q Okay.  Now, you can put aside page 1 if you wish.  19 Now, I have gone through the brothers and sisters of  20 Sylvester.  Now, I just want to refer you to some of  21 his nephews and nieces.  You know that Elizabeth Nikal  22 who married J.B. Tom has a number of children?  23 A Yes.  24 Q And this is on page 2.  And they are in this House?  25 A Yes.  26 Q And you know that -- you know Jeannie Nikal's children  27 who are shown on pages 2 and 3?  28 A Jeannie, yes.  29 Q And they are all in this House, is that right?  30 A Yes.  31 Q And Agnes Nikal, you know her children?  32 A Yes.  33 Q As set out on page 3.  And Clara Nikal on page 3 has a  34 number of children, and her daughters have some  35 children all in this House.  You know those children?  36 You know Clara?  37 A I know Clara, yes.  38 Q And you know her children?  39 A I know -- I know Addie personally, and others I just  40 know of.  41 Q Okay.  And you know Addie's two children, Adrianna and  42 Drake?  43 A Yes.  44 Q And Hazel Nikal, married to Robert Tait -- or she  45 married another person and had, on page 3 this is,  46 Verna, Norman, Joyce and Rene.  You know those  47 children? 18055  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A Yes.  2 Q And then she married Robert Tait.  And the children  3 she had by Robert are on the beginning of page 4?  4 A Uh-huh.  5 Q And you know of those children, and they are in this  6 House?  7 A Yes.  8 Q And you know, as you have already described, Flossie  9 and Bill, who is from your House?  10 A Yes.  11 Q And you know they have children who are in this House?  12 A Yes.  13 THE COURT:  Flossie and Bill are married to each other?  They  14 are not both from your House, are they?  15 THE WITNESS:  No, Bill is from my House, yes.  16 MR. GRANT:  17 Q And Flossie is from which House?  18 A From Hagwilneghl.  19 Q Now, just going up on page 4, and this carries over to  20 page 5.  You can put aside page 3, if you want as  21 well, and just look at pages 4 and 5.  We have already  22 referred to Abel Joseph, who you knew personally --  23 A I didn't know him personally.  24 Q You knew of him?  25 A Of him.  26 Q I'm sorry.  27 THE COURT:  Who are we talking about?  28 MR. GRANT:  Abel Joseph.  The second line from the top on page  29 4.  30 Q And did you know his children, Christine and Mary  31 William?  32 A Yes.  33 Q You knew them, and Christine was John Namox's wife; is  34 that right?  35 A Yes.  36 Q John Namox is a chief in the action?  37 A Yes.  38 Q What's his chief's name?  39 A Wah tah kwets.  40 Q W-a-h t-a-h k-w-e-t-s.  And Mary William, who married  41 Henry John, they have a number of children, and you  42 knew all of those children personally, that is Sandra,  43 Thelma, Sally, Cathy, and they adopted Gordon.  Did  44 you know all those children?  45 A Yes.  46 Q And you know Sandra's own child, Walter Johnson?  47 A Uh-huh. 18056  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Q  A  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  Okay.  They are all in this House?  Yes.  Now, going to page 5 and 6, if you could.  We are  referring here to the children of Christine Dominic -  or Christine and John Dominic.  And you know both of  those people personally, although Christine is  deceased now, and John as well you said?  Yes.  But you knew Margaret Dominic?  Yes.  I should say know her.  I know her.  And Amelia Dominic?  Yes.  There should be a dot in that one.  In Amelia?  Uh-huh.  Okay.  Maybe you could mark that on the exhibit  please.  John Dominic is recently deceased?  Yes.  Oh, there should be a dot there too.  I haven't found John Dominic yet.  Page 5, second line from the top.  Oh, yes.  Right at the right-hand side.  Yes.  Now, besides Margaret and Amelia, did Christine and  John have two other boys, Solomon and Francis?  Yes.  And there should be a line drawn across with two  triangles below it after Amelia; is that right?  Yes, Solomon --  You mean --  Brothers of Amelia.  All right.  Can you just draw that across and reflect the  triangles there.  COURT:  They were Solomon?  WITNESS:  Solomon was the oldest, and Francis was the  youngest.  GRANT  Q  A  COURT:  WITNESS  GRANT:  And they were both deceased; is that right?  Yes.  They were Dominic's, were they?  Yes.  They both died of TB. 18057  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   And you knew them?  2 A   Yes.  Solomon and Francis.  3 THE COURT:  They are both deceased?  4 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  5 MR. GRANT:  6 Q   Now, going down to Margaret Dominic's children that  7 are shown on page 5.  You know all of her children?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   Margaret Dominic --  10 A   I know all of them except Alfred.  11 Q   Okay.  You know Louise, Virgil, Trevor?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Virgil?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   Joseph?  16 A   Uh-huh.  17 Q   Joanne, Bonnie, Ruby and Eugene?  18 A   Uh-huh.  19 Q   Now —  2 0 A   Bonny's name is Verna.  Verna Bonnie.  Her name is  21 Verna.  22 Q   Okay.  And you know Joanne has a daughter Jennifer?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   You know Jennifer, don't you?  25 A   Yes.  She also has another child, a little boy.  2 6 THE COURT:  Who —  27 THE WITNESS:  Joanne.  2 8 MR. GRANT:  29 Q   Joanne has a little boy.  There should be a line  30 across to -- parallel to Jennifer with a triangle  31 down.  Do you recall his name?  32 A   His name is Rod junior.  33 Q   Rod junior?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Okay.  36 A   It's another cousin of mine.  37 Q   Now, you know Louise's children, Francis, Ronnie,  38 Kevin and Melissa personally; is that right?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And you know Virginia's children, Jeremy and Tamara?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And that she adopted one child, Bradley?  43 A   Brad, yes.  44 Q   Do you know who Bradley's -- are Bradley's parents  45 Wet'suwet'en or Gitksan?  4 6 A  Wet'suwet'en.  47 Q   Okay.  Are they from another House? 1805?  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A No.  2 Q Okay.  Now, Emelia --  3 A Bradley is Ruby's child.  4 Q Ruby Pierre's child?  5 A Yes, her sister.  6 Q Okay.  7 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, you mean Bradley's parents were from this  8 House?  9 THE WITNESS:  No, his mother.  Bradley's mother is Ruby,  10 Virginia's sister.  11 MR. GRANT:  12 Q Ruby Pierre?  13 A Ruby Pierre.  14 Q But he's being raised by Virginia?  15 A She adopted him, yes.  16 Q Okay.  Now, you see Emelia on page 6, Emelia and Jack  17 Mitchell.  You have already referred to Emelia?  18 A Yes.  19 Q And they had a number of children, and you know those  20 children, don't you?  21 A Yes.  22 Q That's George, Rose, Vera, Brian, Jacqueline, Gary,  23 Sandra and Randy.  You know all of those children  24 personally?  25 A Yes.  26 Q And you know all of Rose's children, who are set out  27 there?  28 A Yes.  29 Q You know all of Vera's children?  30 A Yes.  31 Q And you know all of -- you know Jacqueline's daughter  32 Shawna?  33 A Yes.  34 Q And they are all in this House?  35 A Yes.  Vera is married to my cousin.  36 Q Okay.  That's James Joseph junior?  37 A Right.  That's Roddy's brother.  38 Q Now, I would like to refer you to page --  39 A You see, Joanne should have a little thing here to  4 0 show Roddy, Roddy junior's father.  Roddy Joseph --  41 Joanne Pierre under Margaret Dominic and Joe Pierre.  42 Q Yes.  There should be equals and a triangle?  43 A Yes.  44 THE COURT:  Joanne was married?  45 THE WITNESS:   To Roddy Joseph.  4 6    MR. GRANT:  47 Q To Roddy Joseph.  So there should be an equals and a 18059  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 triangle beside Joanne Pierre on page 5?  2 A Right.  3 THE COURT:  Yes, I have it.  4 MR. GRANT:  5 Q Have you made that mark on the exhibit?  6 A Yes.  7 Q Okay.  Now, going to pages -- you can put page 5 aside  8 as well, and going to pages 6 and 7.  9 A Okay.  10 Q Now, here you see Lama Arthur Michell and Emelia  11 Austin at the top of page 6 in the right-hand side.  12 Do you see that?  13 A Yes.  14 Q And they were married and had those children that are  15 set out underneath?  16 A Yes.  17 Q Okay.  Now, you know Bazil Michell?  18 A Yes.  19 Q You knew Tommy Michell who died?  20 A Yes.  21 Q And he's the husband of Emma Michell?  22 A Yes.  23 Q You knew Walter Michell, who died, or you knew of him?  24 A I just knew of him.  I didn't --  25 Q He died in 1939.  And you knew -- you know Josephine  26 Michell?  27 A I know Josephine.  2 8 Q And you knew Johnny Mack who died?  29 A Yes.  30 Q And you have already referred to Johnny Mack's wife in  31 another genealogy where Johnny was?  32 A Yes.  33 Q Now, you know Josephine's children, Elsie and  34 Lawrence?  35 A Yes.  36 Q And Elsie is deceased?  37 A Yes.  38 Q And she was married to Bill Hart, and you know their  39 children Audrey, Marvin and Trevor Michell?  40 A Yes.  41 Q And Audrey has had children as well?  42 A Yes.  43 Q As shown there.  And those are all children within  44 this House?  45 A Yes.  46 Q Okay.  And then with respect to Johnny Mack, you know  47 all of Johnny's children and Ester's, Veronica, 18060  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  THE COURT  46  MR. GRANT  47  Henry -- this is on page 7.  Yes.  Walter, Henry -- there were two Henry's actually.  You  heard of the first Henry.  Yes -- no, I didn't know about the first Henry.  He  probably died as a baby.  Yes.  Looks like he died at 6 months of age.  But you  knew Henry who died in 1972?  Yes.  And Cora and Mary Williams?  Yes.  And you know Cora's children, Bertha and Rodney and  Arthur.  They are members of this House?  Yes.  And you know of them?  I know of them, yes.  Okay.  Now, Mary Williams married Douglas Williams,  and they have a number of children set out there, and  you know -- personally know Donna and Chester  Williams, don't you?  Yes.  And you know they have sisters and brothers as shown  there?  Yes.  And they are all members of this House?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, it appears, if you just put page 6 against  page 8, that Emelia Austin had a sister, Rosarie  Plasway and Mary Ann Austin.  Is that right?  Yes.  Now, My Lord, it appears that in drafting that Phillip  Austin, a line is drawn up from Phillip Austin.  That  line should be crossed out to the top line, and the  line should be connected from Rosarie Plasway to the  top line.  Is that correct, what I have just  described?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, Rosarie Plasway and Phillip Austin had a  number of children, including your stepfather Charles  Austin?  Yes.  And Charles was married to your mother Margaret -- is  married to your mother Margaret?  Yes.  :  I'm sorry, where are you talking about now?  :  I am on page 8.  I'm sorry, My Lord.  You can put aside page 6 for now, and just go to page 18061  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2 THE COURT  3 MR. GRANT  4 THE COURT  5 MR. GRANT  Yes.  You are talking about --  Rosarie Plasway married to Phillip Austin.  Yes.  And one of his children was Charles Austin, who  6 married Margaret Wilson.  7 THE COURT:  Wait a minute.  Oh, yes.  Yes.  Thank you.  And  8 that's your stepfather?  9 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  10 MR. GRANT:  11 Q Did you know Phillip Austin?  12 A Yes.  13 Q And I think you have referred to Phillip already?  14 A Yes.  Also his wife Rosarie.  15 Q You knew Rosarie?  16 A Yes.  17 Q And Charles had a sister Ellen and two brothers,  18 Johnny and Donald Austin?  19 A Yes.  2 0 Q And you knew Johnny and Donald?  21 A I knew Johnny and Donald.  I didn't know Ellen.  I  22 knew Johnny and Donald.  23 Q Okay.  And you knew that Johnny was married to Emily  24 West?  25 A Yes.  26 Q And Donald was married to Violet Wilson and Flossie  27 Joseph?  28 A Yes.  29 Q Now, Rosarie Plasway also married Abel Brown?  30 A Yes.  31 Q And you know Mary Ann Alec?  32 A Yes.  33 Q Do you -- Mary Ann Alec is still alive?  34 A Yes.  35 Q And you consider yourself related to her through your  36 stepfather, is that right?  37 A Yes.  But there should be a dot there where it says  38 Francis Abel.  39 Q And he died around 1934?  40 A Yes, something like that.  41 Q So you heard of him, but didn't know him?  42 A Yes.  43 Q Now, Mary Ann Alec had adopted a son, Frank Austin?  44 A Yes.  45 Q Who married Antoinette Austin?  46 A Yes.  47 Q Now, Charles Austin, your stepfather, adopted your 18062  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 husband Don Kenni?  2 A Yes.  3 Q And he also adopted Jose Pereira?  4 A Yes.  5 Q And Jose Pereira is the spouse of your daughter Debra?  6 A Kenni.  7 Q Is that right?  8 A Yes.  9 Q And it's written Debra Pereira there, but it should be  10 Debra Kenni; is that right?  11 A Yes.  12 Q I would ask you to make that change on the exhibit.  13 Now, Charles also adopted Tina Austin?  14 A Yes.  15 Q And Crystal, who you have referred to earlier?  16 A Yes.  17 Q And Harry Austin as well?  18 A Yes.  19 Q The husband of your -- of Ida, who is your --  20 A Sister.  21 Q Sister.  22 A Right.  23 Q Now, you see along the top line there Rosarie Plasway  24 had a sister, Marion Austin, who was married to Duncan  25 David.  Did you know Duncan David?  26 A No, but I have heard of that name.  27 Q Okay.  And Marion was also married to a person named  28 Tom from Babine?  2 9 A Uh-huh.  30 Q And had a daughter Juliette, a son Joseph and a son  31 Donald Tom.  Did you know Joseph Tom and Mary Michell?  32 A Yes.  33 Q And you knew of Juliette and Donald?  34 A I just know of them.  I didn't know them personally.  35 Q Yes.  But did you know Mary Tom, who is the daughter  36 of Juliette and Louie Joseph, her husband?  37 A Yes.  38 Q And is Louie Joseph the same person you referred to  39 earlier today as having died in the fire?  40 A Yes.  Yes.  41 Q Now, there should be a line drawn down from Mary Tom  42 and Louie Joseph to that next line.  43 A Yes.  44 Q Where George Joseph -- it's a drafting error, My Lord.  45 And did you know -- do you know George Joseph, Mary  46 and Louie's son?  47 A Yes. 18063  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  THE COURT  42  MR. GRANT  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  And do you know he's got brothers and sisters, as  reflected there?  Yes.  And you know that his sister Shirley and his sister  Linda have children?  Yes.  All of them are members of this House?  Yes.  Go to pages 9 and 10.  Starting on page 10.  There is  some drafting confusion here, My Lord, I would like to  clear up.  You see on page 10 on the top there is  Rosanne Uzani and Pierre Alec.  Do you see that Ms.  Wilson on page 10, the second line from the top on the  left-hand side above Lizette and Dick Naziel?  Could you repeat your question.  I'm getting tired.  I  didn't hear.  What did you ask me?  Are you on page 10?  Yes.  Okay.  Look for Rosanne Uzani, the top line coming in  from the left.  Yes.  And Pierre Alec.  Yes.  Are they the parents of Matilda Pierre and Lizette  Pierre, Adam Pierre and Matthew Pierre?  That's what I understand, yes.  Okay.  There should be a line drawn down to that.  Yes.  Uzani is U-z-a-n-i.  Oh, that line should be taken out there --  I'll come to that.  Yes, that's another -- I'll come  to that.  Now, where are you referring to now?  I am talking about -- there is a line down between  Matthew Pierre and Sarah Joseph.  You see it going  down?  To the —  To where Alfred Mitchell is right below.  Yes.  That line shouldn't be there.  That line was put in in error of --  :  That line comes out, does it?  Now, you knew Matilda Pierre, the sister of Lizette  Pierre, Dick Naziel's wife?  Matilda Pierre.  No, I didn't know her.  Did you know of her?  Of her, yes. 18064  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  A  3  THE COURT  4  MR. GRANT  5  THE COURT  6  MR. GRANT  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  But you know Lizette?  Yes, I know.  I haven't found Matilda yet.  I'm sorry, My Lord.  Page 9 and 10.  It's on page 9.  Yes.  The same line as Lizette.  And Adam Pierre?  Yes.  And Matthew Pierre?  Yes.  You know them?  Yes.  Okay.  I didn't know Adam Pierre, but I knew Matthew Pierre  and his wife Sarah.  Okay.  And you know Sarah Joseph?  I knew her, yes.  Okay.  Now, do you know the children of Lizette and  Dick Naziel, which are set out on the next line, being  Elizabeth, Thomas, Allen, Raymond, Catherine,  Charlotte, Connie and Roy Naziel?  Yes.  And Roy was one of a twin with Russell Naziel?  Yes.  And Elizabeth -- and they are all members of this  House of Hagwilneghl?  Yes.  And Elizabeth married Alfred Mitchell?  Yes.  And their children are all set out on page 9?  Yes.  And you know those children?  Yes.  Going -- and their spouses from Joseph Michell right  to Laura Mitchell?  Yes.  That should be Joseph Mitchell, I think, on the  left-hand side, My Lord.  You know those -- you know  all of those children.  And you know --  Alfred Mitchell, yes.  And you know Barbara Mitchell who married Gary  McKinnon, all of her children personally?  Yes.  You know of Diana Mitchell's two children?  I know of her two children.  Of Diana's two children?  I know Barbara's children, yes. 18065  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q And you know of Ruby's?  2 A Yes.  3 Q And you know Laura's children?  4 A Yes.  5 Q And they are all in this House?  6 A Yes.  7 Q Going onto page 10 and 11.  You know Charlotte  8 Naziel -- I'm on page 10, My Lord, third line from the  9 bottom.  Charlotte Naziel's children, Irene, Wilfred,  10 Norman and Darvin?  11 A Darvin, yes.  12 Q And Connie's children, Lorraine, Byron and Keith,  13 Connie Naziel's children?  14 A I know of them.  15 Q Okay.  16 A I don't know them personally.  17 Q But you know of them as members of this House?  18 A Yes.  19 Q Okay.  Going up to the top on that same page 10.  You  20 see -- or not the very top, I should say, but the line  21 above Charlotte Naziel.  You see Willie Simms?  22 A Uh-huh.  23 Q And he holds the name Gitanskanease?  24 A Yes.  25 Q And he's quite unwell now, isn't he?  26 A Yes.  27 Q And Willie's -- you know him personally?  28 A Yes.  29 Q And you knew of his -- that he was married to Sarah  30 Smith and Madeline -- is either of his wive's alive  31 today?  32 A Madeline, that should have a dot in it.  That was his  33 first wife.  34 Q Okay.  And you knew his mother, or you heard of his  35 mother Mary Leon?  36 A I knew her.  37 Q You knew Mary?  38 A I knew her, yes.  39 Q And you knew that her brother, Donald Walter, was the  40 former holder of Gitanskanease?  41 A Yes, I knew her.  42 Q And did you know from Mary of her own mother, Sarah  43 Leon, married to Francois Plasway?  44 A I only heard that.  I don't know that.  45 Q You didn't know them, but you heard of that?  46 A Yes.  4 7 Q And — 18066  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  THE  COURT  26  MR.  GRANT  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  THE  COURT  38  MR.  GRANT  39  THE  COURT  40  MR.  GRANT  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  47  Okay.  Going across between pages 10 and 11.  Did you know  that Topley Matthew Sam was related to Willie Simms in  the manner therein described, that is Topley Matthew  Sam's mother was -- Topley Matthew Sam's grandmother  was the sister to Willie Simms' grandmother?  You see  Topley Matthew Sam, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, on page 11?  Yes.  And his mother was -- is referred to as Gaysonesbeen,  G-a-y-s-o-n-e-s-b-e-e-n.  And his mother's mother is  unnamed there?  Uh-huh.  But is the sister of Sarah Leon?  Yes.  Sarah Leon is the grandmother of Willie Simms?  Yes.  Is that your understanding?  Is that a correct  description of their relationship?  Yes.  And I'm sorry, I made one -- I may have totally  mislead you.  I said Topley Matthew Sam, and I mean  his wife Rose Sam.  Yes.  I apologize.  So it's Rose that is related to Willie Simms?  Yes, Rose Sam.  I'm sorry.  And you have already described you knew Rose and  Topley Matthew Sam.  You knew of them?  I knew of them.  Yes.  And you knew their children, Christine Sam,  Mabel Sam, who married a Critch and holds the name  Kela?  I only know Mabel personally.  And you know Mabel's children, Angeline, Kenny and  Richard.  Yes.  Looks like Angeline Critchard.  Angeline Critch, Kenny Critch and Richard Critch.  Oh, yes.  Mabel holds what name today?  Kela.  K-e-l-a.  Going over to the last page.  You see that  Rose Sam's mother, this is on page 11 and 12, those  are the only two pages you need for what I am going to  ask right now, that Rose Sam's mother, Gaysonesbeen,  G-a-y-s-o-n-e-s-b-e-e-n, married another person who -- 18067  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 and they had children, including Charles Assaine,  2 A-s-s-a-i-n-e, also known as Old Sam Maxlaxlax  3 M-a-x-1-a-x-l-a-x.  That's all one word, Maxlaxlax.  4 Now, did you hear of Old Sam Maxlaxlax?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And is that the same person as referred to as Old Sam  7 on the top of the Samoox genealogy?  8 A   Yes, it's a name that Johnny David's got.  9 Q   Maxlaxlax?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Now, if we go along that line, we see on page 12 or  12 page 11 Old Sam had a brother Old Dennis?  13 A   Uh-huh.  14 Q   A brother Joe Nass married to Lucy Nass?  15 A   Uh-huh.  16 Q   A sister Joan Nass, another sister Suwitsdeen,  17 S-u-w-i-t-s-d-e-e-n, who married a Smogelgem and two  18 other sisters, one of whom was the mother of Jimmy  19 Michell?  2 0 A   Right.  21 Q   Now, these persons were older, and you have only heard  22 of these -- they are before your time?  23 A   I only heard of them.  Jimmy Michell was Emma  24 Michell's father.  25 Q   Jimmy Michell was Emma's father?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   That's Emma who gave commission evidence?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Okay.  Now, you see that Smogelgem there?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   That -- it shows he is both married to Suwitsdeen and  32 part of the House.  Which line should be taken out  33 there?  Should he be taken out, that line between the  34 top line and him?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   He's the husband of Suwitsdeen?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Can you just mark it?  39 A   I did.  40 Q   Now, you see James Holland and his wife have children  41 that are referred to along the bottom?  42 A   Uh-huh.  43 Q   On the right-hand side of page 12.  And these are  44 Thomas, Julian and Bazil Holland, Christine Holland,  45 who married another James Holland?  4 6 A   Uh-huh.  47 Q   Now, did you know of or have you heard of these 1806?  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Hollands?  2 A   I heard of them, but I only knew personally Christine,  3 who is Sarah Layton's grandmother.  I knew her.  And I  4 don't think that there should be a black dot under  5 Lucy, who was the wife of Julian Holland.  6 Q   Okay.  Lucy Tiljoe is still alive?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And you know her?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Okay.  And Christine Holland was from the House of  11 Knedebeas?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Now, under Suwitsdeen and Smogelgem there is Johnny  14 David married to Miriam David.  And that is the Johnny  15 David the court has seen and his evidence, of course,  16 heard?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   So Johnny is a member of this House of Hagwilneghl?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   And then there is Matthew Jones, Lucille Jones and  21 Moses Jones adopted from Wii dis.  Did you hear of  22 that adoption or those people?  23 A   I only heard of Matthew Jones and Moses Jones.  I  24 never heard of Lucille Jones.  25 Q   Okay.  26 MR. GRANT:  I would ask that that be marked as the next exhibit,  27 My Lord.  2 8 THE COURT:  All right.  29 THE REGISTRAR:  1067.  3 0 MR. GRANT:  10 67.  31 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes.  32  33 (EXHIBIT NO. 1067 - GENEAOLOGY OF  34 HAGWILNEGHL - LAKSILYU)  35  36 THE COURT:  All right.  37 MR. GRANT:  I just have a couple of questions, but maybe we  38 should take the break, and I'll just be a few minutes.  39 THE COURT:  All right.  40 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned for a  41 short recess.  42  43 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A SHORT RECESS)  44  45  46  47 18069  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO  4 BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT  5 OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE  6 BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY.  7  9 LORI OXLEY  10 OFFICIAL REPORTER  11 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 18070  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  (PR  2  THE  REGIS  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  GRANT  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  GRANT  19  THE  COURT  20  21  MR.  GRANT  22  23  24  THE  COURT  25  26  27  28  29  MR.  GRANT  30  THE  COURT  31  32  MR.  GRANT  33  Q  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT)  RAR:  Order in court.  Mr. Grant?  Possibly I could just deal with a preliminary  matter.  I -- I'll just be about two or three more  minutes.  I understand from Mr. Mackenzie he estimates  about being an hour and I believe Miss Koenigsberg is  not going to be very long, will have some questions.  And I just was discussing with Mr. Rush about the  situation with Mr. Skoda.  Mr. Skoda is waiting and  ready to go.  In some sense we're in your lordship's  hands, but if we're not going to start Mr. Skoda  tonight, I think we'd like to be able to bring him  back even if it's earlier in the morning.  I'm not  sure what your situation is early in the morning.  It  may not be good.  No.  It's not good yet.  Or else we could arrange to start --  Unless we're going to start early and finish early.  I have to have some time in the office.  :  Yes.  Yes.  Well, as you know, we had scheduled a  witness for tomorrow morning, Mr. Wilson.  He would go  right after Mr. Skoda.  :  I think we should stay and I think we should get  back on schedule.  I don't think we can sort of  tolerate these sort of misjudgments on schedules  without paying the price of staying late and catching  up.  So let's stay and finish.  :  Okay.  :  At least we'll stay until 6:30 or 6:00 and see how  we get there.  That's fine.  I just want to alert Mr. Skoda.  Either  way he's available.  There's no difficulty from our  side.  Just a few final questions, Ms. Wilson-Kenni.  With respect to giving this evidence relating to  genealogies, did you speak to Smogelgem, Goohlaht,  G-o-o-h-l-a-h-t, Woos, W-o-o-s, Hagwilnegh,  H-a-g-w-i-1-n-e-g-h, and Samoox, S-a-m-o-o-x?  Did you  speak to them about giving this evidence with respect  to the membership of their houses?  Yes.  Did you -- did -- did you seek permission from them?  Did they authorize you to speak about the house  membership?  Yes. 18071  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  MR.  macke:  32  33  34  35  36  37  MR.  GRANT  38  THE  COURT  39  40  MR.  GRANT  41  Q  42  A  43  MR.  GRANT  44  THE  COURT  45  CROSS-EXA  46  Q  47  How did you learn about the membership of these  houses?  Well, a lot of them I knew personally and some I've  heard about through -- through the -- the chiefs  themselves and also I've heard, like, my  grandmother -- from my grandmother and also Madeline  Alfred, different elders that I've spoken to, and also  I've heard some of these names mentioned in feasts.  That is the former holders of these names?  Yes.  And did you attend a feast -- who is the present  Hagwilnegh?  Ron Michell.  And did you attend the feast when Ron Michell took the  name?  Yes.  And are Ron Michell and the present Samoox, Harvey  Naziel, both younger than yourself?  Yes.  And have you attended more feasts than they have?  Yes.  And who is the present Madeek?  James Brown.  Okay.  And he replaced George Naziel, who is deceased?  Yes.  And that name has been announced in the feast?  Yes.  And who is the present Kanoots, the name formerly held  by Peter Alfred?  Freddie.  JZIE:  My lord, I object to this line of questioning.  It's got nothing to do with the genealogies that were  going to be given in evidence by this witness.  Now  we're trying to clean up some other unfinished  matters, as far as I can perceive it in my respectful  submission.  :  This is my last question.  :  If it's your last question, I think you should  proceed.  Do you recall who Kanoots is today?  Freddie Joseph.  :  Thank you very much.  :  Thank you.  Mr. MacKenzie or Miss Koenigsberg?  EXAMINATION BY MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  My lord, I've handed up a binder  which when I submit the first document to be 18072  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 exhibited, I'm going to request that that binder be  2 marked as an exhibit and then the exhibits --  3 documents in it be marked as numbers under that  4 exhibit number.  5 THE COURT:  Thank you.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  7 Q   Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, you've testified about the  8 genealogy of Smogelgem and Kloum Khun?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And that's Exhibit 1065.  That genealogy is now  11 accurate?  12 A  Well, I've only talked about what I know.  13 Q   Is that genealogy now complete?  14 A  As far as I know a genealogy is never complete.  15 Q   Yes?  16 A   It's an ongoing thing.  17 Q   And the genealogy keeps changing, doesn't it?  18 A  Well, there's people born every day.  19 Q   And another reason it keeps changing is because you  20 continue to do more research, correct?  21 A   Of course.  22 Q   Yes.  And you do more research.  You find more names,  23 correct?  24 A   Could be.  25 Q   So you can't say now whether Exhibit 1065 is the  26 complete genealogy of that house?  27 A   No.  I can't say that.  28 Q   To the best of your knowledge it's the complete  29 genealogy?  30 A   To my knowledge, yes.  31 Q   And to the best of your knowledge there are no members  32 presently living who are not listed on the genealogy?  33 A   I can't say that.  There could be someone that I don't  34 know.  35 Q   Well, Leonard George holds the name Smogelgem today,  36 does he not?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And you spoke to Leonard George before you gave this  39 evidence, correct?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   So will you agree with me that where Leonard George's  42 evidence -- he's the chief of the house, isn't he?  4 3 A   Um-hum.  44 Q   Where his evidence differs from your genealogy, then  45 you'd prefer his evidence, wouldn't you?  46 A   I guess so.  47 Q   Can you tell his lordship now that Leonard George has 18073  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 approved of this genealogy?  2 A   He said that he trusted me to present it.  3 Q   And you haven't personally spoken to all the people on  4 this genealogy to see whether they approve it, have  5 you?  6 A   No.  I spoke to Leonard.  7 Q   That's right.  And have you spoken -- I'm sorry.  8 You're not aware of anyone who -- I think I'll  9 rephrase that question and I'll ask the same questions  10 about the Woos genealogy.  That's Exhibit 1066.  You  11 spoke to Roy Morris before you gave the genealogy?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And Roy Morris is the -- holds the name Woos?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And he's approved -- or he approved of you giving this  16 evidence?  17 A   He told me he trusted me to present it, yes, with what  18 I know.  19 Q   To the best of your knowledge, the Exhibit 1066 is  20 accurate?  21 A   To the best of my knowledge, yes.  22 Q   To the best of your knowledge it includes all the  23 present living members of the House of Woos?  24 A   I don't know that for sure.  It could be some living  25 that I don't -- don't know or forgot.  26 Q   When -- if Roy Morris' evidence differs from your  27 genealogy, you would prefer Roy Morris' evidence  28 because he's the chief of the house, correct?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Now, referring to Exhibit 1064 -- that's the  31 Goohlaht/Caspit genealogy -- you spoke to Lucy Namox  32 before you presented this evidence?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And she approved of you presenting the evidence?  35 A   Um-hum.  36 Q   But you haven't spoken to the other -- all the people  37 on the genealogy who are alive, have you?  38 A   Not all of them, no.  39 Q   You haven't checked with them to confirm that they are  40 members of the Goohlaht, have you?  41 A   They know their house.  42 Q   You haven't personally checked with them to have them  43 confirm that they're members of the house?  44 A   No, not each one of them.  45 Q   And Lucy Namox is the head chief in Goohlaht, is she  46 not?  4 7 A   Um-hum. 18074  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q So where Lucy Namox's evidence differs from your  2 genealogy, you would prefer her evidence because she's  3 the chief of the house, correct?  4 A Yes.  5 Q Did you -- did you speak to Stanley Morris to get his  6 approval for presenting Exhibit 1064?  7 A No.  I just spoke to Lucy.  8 Q Stanley Morris is Caspit?  9 A Yes.  10 Q And with respect to Exhibit 1064, did you speak to  11 Doug Tait to get his permission?  12 A Yes.  13 Q And what's his chief's name?  14 A L'tessayiin.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  Could we have a spelling for that, please?  16 MR. GRANT:  I think it's on the genealogy.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  18 Q Yes.  It's on the genealogy at page 2 and it's spelled  19 L-apostrophe-t-e-s-s-a-y-i-i-n.  And so Doug Tait  20 approved of your giving this genealogy?  21 A Um-hum.  22 Q Doug Tait is in which house?  2 3 A He's in Kloum Khun.  24 Q Kloum Khun.  And Pat -- you said Patrick Pierre is the  25 present Kloum Khun, correct?  2 6 A Um-hum.  27 Q You didn't get his approval though, did you?  28 A No.  I couldn't get to see him.  29 Q Kloum Khun is the head chief of that House of Kloum  30 Khun, isn't he?  31 A Yes.  32 Q Now, where did you go -- and Johnny Mack was the  33 previous Kloum Khun?  34 A Yes.  35 Q And he was also the head chief of the House of Kloum  3 6 Khun?  37 A Um-hum.  38 Q So where Johnny Mack's evidence differs from your  39 yours as to the genealogy, you would prefer Johnny  40 Mack's evidence because he was the head chief of the  41 house, correct?  42 A Yes.  43 Q And the same goes for Doug Tait, who's a knowledgeable  44 chief in the house, correct?  4 5 A Um-hum.  46 Q Yes.  Now, speaking about Exhibit 1067 -- this is  47 Hagwilnegh.  This exhibit now is complete to the best 18075  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 of your knowledge?  2 A   Um-hum.  3 Q   And it includes all the present living members of the  4 house, to the best of your knowledge?  5 A   I can't say it includes all of them.  6 Q   You can't say that?  7 A   There could be more.  It's the same answer as the  8 other questions that you asked me.  There could be  9 someone that's alive today that I don't know.  10 Q   Yes.  11 A   I only talk about the ones that I know of and heard  12 of.  13 Q   And you will be adding to the list then once you find  14 out about those other people, won't you?  15 A   Of course.  And when a child is born, you add them on  16 too.  17 Q   Yes.  You didn't get a chance to talk to Sylvester  18 Williams to get his approval because he passed away  19 quite a while ago there?  20 A   I don't have a direct line there, but I talked to Ron  21 Michell.  22 Q   Yes.  You didn't speak to Sylvester Williams prior to  23 his death to get permission to give this evidence, did  24 you?  25 A   I had no idea I was going to be giving it in the time  26 that he was still alive, but I knew him very well.  27 Q   Sylvester Williams had the chief's name Hagwilnegh?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   And he was the head chief of this house?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   So where Sylvester Williams' evidence differs from  32 your genealogical evidence, you would prefer Sylvester  33 Williams' because he was a head chief, correct?  34 A   I think my answer is the same as the rest of them.  35 Q   Yes.  And I understand that in summary and I wanted to  36 go through each one so that you'd have a chance to  37 respond.  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   In summary it's the head chief's evidence that's the  40 final authority as to the genealogies?  41 A   That's right.  42 Q   And that applies to each of the ones you've spoken  43 about today?  Yes?  4 4 A   Um-hum.  45 Q   Could you answer yes, please, for the record?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Thank you.  And as you say, your answer applies to all 18076  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 of them.  But with respect to Exhibit 1063, which is  2 Samoox, the person who had the name Samoox before the  3 present holder was Moses David, wasn't he?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And he died in 1985, didn't he?  6 A  Around that time, yes.  7 Q   You didn't have an opportunity prior to his death to  8 get his permission to give this evidence, did you?  9 A   No.  I didn't know I was going to be giving it at the  10 time.  11 Q   Now, are you aware that Lucy Namox was acting as  12 caretaker of the House of Samoox after Moses David's  13 death in 1985?  14 A   Um-hum.  Yes.  15 Q   And you didn't get Lucy Namox's approval to give this  16 evidence about Samoox, did you?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   I see.  So Lucy Namox gave you her approval?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   And did Harvey Naziel also give you his approval?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   Now, where Lucy Namox's evidence differs from yours,  23 you would prefer hers because she was the caretaker,  24 correct?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   Now, can you agree with me that the research into  27 these genealogies is still continuing?  28 A   No.  I can't agree with you, because I don't know if  29 it is.  30 Q   You don't know?  Is the research continuing with  31 respect to the Exhibit 1067, Hagwilnegh genealogy?  32 A   It could be.  I can't say that it is or not.  33 Q   But the research has been going on for some time with  34 respect to these five genealogies, haven't they?  35 A  Well, I think, yes.  36 Q   And when did the research start?  37 A   It started -- well, not just these five genealogies,  38 but all of the genealogies started with Heather Harris  39 and her work-load seemed to have become too heavy and  40 she turned it over to Tonia Mills.  41 Q   And when did Heather Harris start her research?  42 A   I have no idea.  I wasn't involved with -- with it at  43 all.  44 Q   Is it before 1984?  45 A  Well, she gave her evidence here.  I think you would  46 find it in there.  47 Q   So you don't know? 18077  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   I'm not sure at what point she went into Gitksan or  2 Wet'suwet'en.  I just don't know that.  3 Q   Now, with respect to Exhibit 1067, which is  4 Hagwilnegh, who prepared that genealogy?  5 A   Some of the -- the original work -- well, I think all  6 of these genealogies started with Heather Harris and  7 then she concentrated on the Gitksan genealogies and  8 she handed over the Wet'suwet'en genealogies to Tonia  9 Mills and then Tonia Mills left and her notes that she  10 put in evidence here when she was on the stand is what  11 was given to Victor Jim to just draw on those -- draw  12 up on those sheets, and that's all that I know of the  13 research.  14 Q   When you say Tonia Mills, you mean Dr. Antonia Mills  15 who testified here?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Now, Heather Harris consulted with many people to get  18 the information on these genealogies?  19 A   That's what I understand.  20 Q   And one of the persons was you?  21 A   Yes, in regards to ours.  22 Q   Yours.  When you say yours, you mean Spookw; is that  23 right?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   You also had an interview with Heather Harris related  26 to the Smogelgem genealogy, didn't you, in 1986?  2 7 A   I may have.  28 Q   And Antonia Mills, to your knowledge, consulted with  29 many people to obtain the information that she put  30 into these genealogies?  31 A   Yes, as far as I understand.  32 Q   And Antonia Mills decided, to your knowledge, which  33 names would go on the genealogies as a result of her  34 research and consulting these people?  35 A   I don't think she decided.  I think she was told.  36 Q   She was told by the people with whom she consulted?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   But there were differing information received from  39 different people as to memberships and house, weren't  40 there?  Didn't she have to reconcile which names she  41 would put on to the genealogy?  She had to make --  42 A   I don't know that.  43 Q   I see.  So your evidence is that Antonia Mills and  44 Heather Harris did the original research and handed  45 the notes to Victor Jim, who drew up the diagram; is  46 that correct?  47 A   That's what I understand. 1807?  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   Now, do you know the -- do you know whether -- can you  2 say that Antonia Mills did the research which led to  3 Exhibit 1065, Smogelgem?  4 A   I'm not too sure if she did all of it, whether Heather  5 did some too or, you know, it could have been both of  6 them that did it.  7 Q   You're not clear as to who did which research?  8 A   No, I'm not.  9 Q   Do you know if Heather Harris interviewed Leonard  10 George, Smogelgem, with respect to this genealogy?  11 A   She must have, but I can't say that she did.  12 Q   And you don't know really whether Antonia Mills  13 interviewed Leonard George about this genealogy, do  14 you?  15 A   No.  I can't say.  16 Q   No.  And is it fair to say that your knowledge with  17 respect to the other genealogies and the preparation  18 is the same as with the Hagwilnegh?  You're not too  19 sure about whom -- to whom Heather Harris and Antonia  20 Mills spoke?  21 A   I'm sure that it must show in their notes, you know,  22 that they gave you here.  23 Q   But you weren't personally involved?  24 A   No.  25 Q   Now, is it fair to say, Mrs. Kenni, that you know  26 several of the people on these genealogies personally?  27 That's correct, isn't it?  28 A   Yes.  Some of them are married to relatives of mine  29 too, so that's -- that sort of makes a connection more  30 clearer to me.  31 Q   But many of the people on the genealogies you don't  32 know personally?  33 A   That's right.  34 Q   Because they passed away before you were born?  35 A   That's right.  36 Q   And many of the people on the genealogy do not have  37 names beside their symbol, correct?  38 A   That's right.  39 Q   Because you don't know who those people were?  40 A   I can't put a name to it, no.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  And the research that was done by Antonia Mills  42 and Heather Harris couldn't turn up the names of those  43 people who are not identified in these genealogies?  44 MR. GRANT:  Well, I don't know what this witness can say about  45 the research.  This witness did not participate in the  46 research of Heather Harris and Tonia Mills.  My  47 friends have had disclosure of all the background 18079  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 material prior to Heather Harris relating what she did  2 with the Wet'suwet'en and, of course, they were able  3 to cross-examine on that, and similarly with Tonia  4 Mills.  For this witness to be asked what did Heather  5 Harris and Tonia Mills turn up or not turn up is  6 something the witness cannot -- quite simply cannot  7 answer.  I object.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, may I respond to that briefly?  9 THE COURT:  Why do you care, Mr. Mackenzie, if the witness'  10 genealogy or if the genealogy to which the witness has  11 testified has blanks in it and it's not answered in  12 some other way?  Well, then doesn't it stand then as  13 an incomplete genealogy at least to that extent?  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  15 THE COURT:  Or are you seeking to have hearsay that they told  16 her there was material in the genealogy that is not  17 correct or something like that?  I can understand you  18 wanting to pursue it if you're expecting to get some  19 positive evidence out of manufactured genealogies, but  20 if -- if you're only seeking to demonstrate that there  21 are blanks, doesn't that speak for itself?  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  2 3 Q   Yes, my lord.  24 But the point is what we have here are really --  25 is really material prepared by someone else and you  26 were given it and you just indicated the people you  27 knew on the genealogies?  28 A   That's right.  29 Q   You had no personal knowledge of the relationships  30 between the people, did you?  The people whom you  31 didn't know I'm speaking about.  32 A   I know of their relationship by what I've been told.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, let's take a look at one of these just for  34 an example, Exhibit 1064, which is a Goohlaht/Caspit.  35 I'm referring to page 6 on that genealogy.  36 MR. GRANT:  What page?  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  38 Q   Page 6.  And referring to Louie Baptiste.  3 9 A   Um-hum.  40 Q   Now, you said he was Andy Louie's father?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   Well, he shouldn't be on this genealogy, should he?  43 He's not in the House of Goohlaht, is he?  44 A   I understood that he was.  45 Q   Okay.  And you see that the genealogy on that line  46 shows that Canyon Creek Mary --  47 A  Andy Louie -- that's Andy Louie's father. 18080  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   That's what you're saying, yes.  2 A   So Andy Louie would be his mother's clan.  3 Q   That's correct, yes.  I'm saying Louie Baptiste is not  4 in the House of Goohlaht, is he?  5 A  Well, I understood him to be.  6 Q   What gave you that understanding?  7 A   Because I just heard that.  8 Q   Do you know who Louie Baptiste's mother was?  9 A   No.  There's no name there.  10 Q   So -- do you know who Canyon Creek Mary's mother was?  11 A   The same as Louie Baptiste.  12 Q   Do you know that personally?  13 A   No.  I've just been told that.  14 Q   Who told you that?  15 A   I can't give a definite person.  I've heard it from  16 different people.  17 Q   Well, I'm going to suggest to you that Canyon Creek  18 Mary had a different mother than Baptiste Louie.  But  19 you don't know that, do you?  2 0 A   No.  I don't know that.  21 Q   No.  I'm going to suggest to you that Canyon Creek  22 Mary's mother was named Yaballie, Y-a-b-a-1-l-i-e, and  23 she was Wet'suwet'en.  You don't know that, do you?  24 A   No, I don't.  25 Q   I would suggest to you that Louie Baptiste's mother  26 was Caroline Wells -- Caroline Thomas.  Do you know  27 that?  28 A   No, I don't.  29 Q   She was from Cheslatta.  Do you know that?  30 A   No, I don't.  31 MR. GRANT:  My friend has given me a sketch.  I'd ask him to  32 have the courtesy of providing me with what this -- I  33 know -- I'm sure it arise somewhere out of these files  34 and notes, but if my friend could refer to where it  35 comes from.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  Okay.  I'm showing you — I'm showing you  37 Exhibit 998-20, one of Marvin George's interview  38 notes.  This is taken from an interview with Elizabeth  39 Jack.  4 0 THE COURT:  Who conducted the interview?  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  This is from Marvin George interview notes.  42 It's a meeting with Elizabeth Jack on February 5,  43 1988.  It's Exhibit 998-20.  4 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  46 Q   Referring to this exhibit, you see that Baptiste  47 Louis' name appears on the left-hand side of that 18081  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 page?  2 A   Baptiste Louis, yes.  3 Q   Yes.  You see that it's indicated that his brother is  4 Chief Louis?  5 A   Um-hum.  6 Q   And that his mother was Caroline Thomas?  7 A   Um-hum.  8 Q   And then over to the right you see Canyon Creek Mary  9 on the same line?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   You see that her mother is Yaballie?  12 A   Um-hum.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Well, that's — certainly that sketch is  14 different from the genealogy you've given today, isn't  15 it, Exhibit 1064, correct?  16 MR. GRANT:  In what respect?  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  With respect to —  18 THE COURT:  Well, isn't that obvious?  19 MR. GRANT:  Well, I mean I don't know, my lord, because he's got  20 Baptiste Louis and then there's equals Louis Baptiste,  21 question mark, and then there's this Chief Louis.  22 There's no Chief Louis on this genealogy.  There's a  23 question mark that Baptiste Louis is Louis Baptiste.  24 THE COURT:  Well, the question was whether Baptiste Louis and  25 Canyon Creek Mary had the same or a different mother.  26 This certainly shows a different mother, doesn't it?  27 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  But on the genealogy that this witness has  28 testified to, it's not Baptiste Louis that she's  29 talking about as Louis Baptiste.  And I think this  30 reversal of names has a different significance than my  31 friend is suggesting, but that's already been dealt  32 with in evidence by others.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  34 Q   That's set out in Marvin George's notes, that exhibit,  35 my lord.  36 At any rate, it's fair to say, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni,  37 that you can't say which of these two versions is  38 correct, the Goohlaht genealogy, Exhibit 1064, or  39 Marvin George's sketch, Exhibit 998-20?  40 A  Well, there's no name on this one here.  41 Q   You're referring to Exhibit 1064?  42 A   I don't know what number it is, but it's page 6.  43 Q   Goohlaht.  44 A  And there's no name there.  It could very well be that  45 that's the name that would go in there.  I can't say  46 for sure until I find out more about it.  47 Q   Yes.  That's right.  That's my question.  You can't 18082  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 say for sure?  And -- yes.  Which house is Marvin  2 George in?  3 A   In Goohlaht.  4 Q   His name appears on page 4 of the genealogy, Exhibit  5 1064, correct?  6 A   Um-hum.  7 Q   Yes.  You said yes?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   That's something you'd have to do more research on; is  10 that correct?  11 A  Well, when you see a blank there with no name on it,  12 of course you would wonder who was supposed to be in  13 there.  14 Q   Yes.  You're referring to the genealogy  15 Goohlaht/Caspit, Exhibit 1064?  16 A   Um-hum.  17 Q   Yes.  On page 6, correct?  18 A   That's right.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  I'll put that in as an exhibit, my lord.  2 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  Given though it's already been marked before  22 just for --  23 THE COURT:  Yes.  What's the next exhibit number?  24 THE REGISTRAR:  1068.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  So, my lord, I would — I submit that the binder  26 be marked as Exhibit 1068 and this will be Exhibit  27 1068-1.  2 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  29 (EXHIBIT 1068:   AGBC cross-examination of Dora  30 Wilson-Kenni Re:  Genealogies)  31 (EXHIBIT 1068-1:  Genealogy)  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, we have — does his lordship have that?  33 THE COURT:  Yes.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  35 Q   We have Exhibit 1064 out in front of us.  And I'd just  36 like you to confirm that looking at page 4 and 5 of  37 that exhibit -- see that?  There's no connection  38 between those two lineages on page 4 and 5, is there?  39 A   That's right.  40 Q   You say that these people are all members of the same  41 house?  42 A   The Goohlaht/Caspit.  43 Q   The people -- the lineages on page 4 and then starting  44 on page 5?  4 5          A   Um-hum.  46 Q   You say yes, they are?  Do you say they're all  47 members? 18083  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  What?  2 Q   Are they all members of the same house?  3 A   No.  I don't say that.  4 Q   Well, do you say they're members of different houses?  5 A  Well, we're dealing with Goohlaht and Caspit.  6 Q   So do you say that the lineage from page 5 onward is a  7 different house from the lineage from page 4 backward,  8 referring to Exhibit 1064?  Do you understand my  9 question?  10 A   No.  11 Q   Well, you see my point that you have two lineages  12 shown here and there's no connection between them?  13 A   Um-hum.  14 Q   So do you say there's two separate houses there?  15 A   I have a problem with saying that it's two separate  16 houses because they're closely connected.  17 THE COURT:  Where do you say the two separate lineages is made  18 apparent?  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  Page 4 backward, my lord, and page 5 onward.  20 Does your lordship have that connection there?  21 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  See that, my lord?  23 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  Thank you.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  25 Q   So do you say that, Mrs. Wilson, that -- Mrs.  26 Wilson-Kenni, that from page 5 onward are all members  27 of the House of Caspit?  28 A   5?  29 Q   Yes.  30 A   Yes.  It appears to be members of Caspit and this one  31 is Goohlaht.  32 Q   And you're saying the one from 4 backwards is  33 Goohlaht, correct?  34 A   Because Clara is on there and she's under Goohlaht.  35 Q   Okay.  You're referring to page 4?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   At the top where you have Clara Alec, correct?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And she's in Goohlaht, right?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   So therefore what you're saying is that -- am I  42 correct that from 5 onwards -- yes.  From 5 onwards  43 these people are not in the House of Goohlaht?  44 A   No.  I think there's some that are in Goohlaht.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  Can you see any there?  Well, for example, on  46 the top of page 6 --  47 MR. GRANT:  Let her look. 18084  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  THE  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  WITNESS:  Pardon?  MACKENZIE:  Q   You were going to give us some examples.  Mr. Grant  told me to let you look.  Okay.  I'm looking to see if there is.  Page 7.  Mary Jane -- Mary Jane Thomas is Goohlaht.  Okay.  Pardon me.  She's Caspit.  I'm sorry.  It seems that they are all Caspit.  Yes.  Okay.  Well, let's look at page -- let's look at  page 3 of Exhibit 1064.  And at the top you have  Silp'da at the top of page 3?  Um-hum.  Now, do you say that Silp'da is a member of the House  of Goohlaht?  A  Well, the only reason I believe that is because Lucy  said that to me.  Q   And you say Lucy Namox?  A   Yes.  MACKENZIE:  But there's no connection shown there between  Silp'da, her lineage, and the lineage on page 1 and 2,  is there?  GRANT:  Yes, there is.  MACKENZIE:  Q   The only connection is at the top of page 3?  A   Yes.  Q   And that's the marriage between Adelle and Alec Tyee.  Do you see that?  Yes.  There's no connection there with the rest of the  lineage of Goohlaht, is there?  I don't know why you say that.  Well, where do you say -- where do you see that  Silp'da is a member of Goohlaht?  Where does it show  that?  What do you mean where does it say that?  MACKENZIE:  Well, how do you show on this genealogy that  Silp'da is a member of the House of Goohlaht?  COURT:  Do you mean that or do you mean related to the  lineage shown on pages 1 and 2?  MACKENZIE:  Related to the lineages shown on pages 1 and 2,  that's correct, my lord.  GRANT:  Well, I understand the witness' confusion because I  am confused too, because I see that they are connected  to pages 1 and 2, my lord.  I think if you have the  A  Q  A  Q  A 18085  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  three pages stretched out, you'd see that as well and  so I object to my question -- my friend's question as  probably inadvertently misleading, but it is  misleading.  Adelle goes down to Estelle Alec and then  it goes all the way over to --  MACKENZIE:  Q   Perhaps I could rephrase the question to refer more  specifically to the genealogy shown at the top of page  2.  And I'm going to ask you to show -- to tell me how  what relationship there is between that genealogy and  the Silp'da lineage.  See that?  A   Um-hum.  Q   That's the one that Felix George is in.  Do you see  him on page 2?  A   Um-hum.  Q   How is he connected to the Silp'da lineage?  I'm  sorry.  The only connection is at the top left-hand  corner of page 3 where there's a marriage there.  A   Um-hum.  Top --  Q   See that with Adellee Alec and Alec Tyee on page 3?  A   Oh, you're talking about here.  Yes.  Q   See that?  A   Yes.  Well, Adellee would be the daughter of that and  Adelle is the mother of Estelle, who is married to  Bazil.  Q   Yes.  I'm speaking about the genealogy at the top of  page -- the lineage at the top of page 2.  You see the  only connection is through that marriage with Alec  Tyee?  Well, let's go on to something else then.  A   I don't understand.  COURT:  Shall I put this away?  MACKENZIE:  No, my lord.  I'm going to have one more  reference to that.  My lord, I'm filing the interrogatories of Lucy  Namox sworn January 12, 1987 with interrogatory 24.  COURT:  Interrogatory number 44?  MACKENZIE:  I'm sorry, my lord?  COURT:  Did you say interrogatory number 44?  MACKENZIE:  24, my lord.  I'm handing the affidavit of Lucy  Namox and the interrogatory 24 as the next exhibit.  COURT:  It's not an exhibit now?  MACKENZIE:  I don't think so, my lord.  COURT:  Yes.  All right.  That will be Tab 2.  REGISTRAR:  1068-2.  (EXHIBIT 1068-2:  Affidavit of Lucy Namox sworn  January 12, 1987 and interrogatory)  MACKENZIE:  1  2  3  4  5  6  MR.  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  THE  32  MR.  33  34  35  36  THE  37  MR.  38  THE  39  MR.  40  41  THE  42  MR.  43  THE  44  THE  45  46  47  MR. 18086  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   Now, you said in your evidence that Stanley Morris was  2 Caspit.  Do you remember that?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And you said that he was -- you said that he was a  5 member of the House of Caspit?  6 A   Yes.  7 MR. GRANT:  If my friend's going to refer to it, maybe that --  8 what he's just tendered should be put in front of her.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm not referring to it yet.  10 MR. GRANT:  Oh, okay.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  12 Q   So Stanley Morris is not a member of the House of  13 Goohlaht; is that your evidence?  14 A   It's pretty hard to separate the two.  They're quite  15 close, but they -- they sit together in the feast as  16 well.  And -- what was your question again?  17 Q   Stanley Morris is not a member of the House of  18 Goohlaht, is he?  19 A   He's Caspit, yes.  20 Q   Yes.  And your -- your genealogy, Exhibit 1064, shows  21 that Caspit and Goohlaht are separated.  There's no  22 interconnection; is that correct?  2 3 A   Um-hum.  24 Q   Yes.  You said yes?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   Yes.  So if Lucy Namox was to say that Stanley Morris  27 was a member of the House of Goohlaht, that would be a  28 mistake?  29 A   No.  It wouldn't be a mistake.  30 Q   She would be correct?  31 A   It's hard to separate the two.  That's why you've got  32 it in one, because they -- they operate together in  33 the feast house too.  34 Q   But you have separated them in the genealogy, haven't  35 you?  36 A  Well, there must be a connection there.  There has to  37 be, but I just haven't seen it.  I only just -- this  38 is just as far as my understanding.  39 Q   You say there must be a connection?  40 A   There has to be.  41 Q   Yes.  But there is no connection shown on the  42 genealogy, Exhibit 1064?  43 A   Not at this point, no.  44 Q   And do you expect that there will be a connection  45 shown eventually?  46 A   There could be.  47 Q   Because research is carrying on to see the 18087  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Plfs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 connections?  2 A I'm not doing the research, carrying on the research.  3 It could be their own family that does that and they  4 would find a connection.  They probably know the  5 connection.  I don't at this point.  6 Q So you'd have to change the genealogy to reflect that  7 connection if you found it?  8 A I don't think it would change that much.  9 Q It would change to show the interrelationship?  10 A Yes.  11 Q That might be through a common ancestor?  12 A Yes.  13 Q But you don't know for sure?  14 A I don't know for sure, so I can't say that.  15 Q Okay.  I'm also going to ask you another question  16 before I actually look at the interrogatory, Mrs.  17 Wilson-Kenni.  Do you know Lorraine George?  18 A Do I know Lorraine George?  19 Q Yes.  20 A Not personally, no.  21 Q Do you know of her?  22 A Who?  23 Q Do you know of her?  Have you heard of her?  24 A If I knew who her mother was, then I could place it.  25 Q Okay.  I'm sorry.  I can't help you with that.  Let me  26 ask you do you know Stanley George?  27 A Yes.  28 Q And he lives at Hagwilget?  2 9 A Um-hum.  30 Q And he's about 42 years old?  31 A Yes.  32 Q And what house would he be a member of?  33 A I think he's in Goohlaht.  34 Q Lorraine Georgia apparently lives in Kelowna and she's  35 about 34.  Do you know -- do you know her from that  36 description?  37 A No.  38 Q No.  And Norma George.  Would you know Norma George?  39 A Yes.  That's Stanley's sister.  40 Q She lives in Ottawa now?  41 A In Vancouver.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  In Vancouver.  And what house — so you would  43 say she's a member of Goohlaht?  44 THE COURT:  Mr. MacKenzie, I'm sorry.  We're going to have to  45 adjourn for a moment.  There's something that I have  46 to sign, so I think the reporters are going to change  47 anyway.  We'll take about 10 minutes. 18088 1    MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  2    THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned.  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  5  6 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  7 a true and accurate transcript of the  8 proceedings transcribed to the best  9 of my skill and ability.  10  11  12  13 Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  14 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 18089  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS)  2  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie?  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q I was asking you about Norma George and you said that  6 you -- you say you knew Norma George, is that right?  7 A Stanley's sister.  8 Q Andrea George?  9 A That's Norma's daughter.  10 Q And Nicole George?  11 A I am not too sure if it's one of her daughters.  12 Q And all those people are in which house?  13 A I understand it to be Goohlaht.  14 Q And that's shown on the genealogy, Exhibit 1064?  15 A Pardon me?  16 Q And that's shown on the genealogy, Exhibit 1064?  17 A Stanley?  18 Q Lorraine George, you don't know her?  19 A No.  20 Q Stanley George?  21 A No.  22 Q Is he on the genealogy?  23 A No.  24 Q Is Norma George on the genealogy?  25 A No.  26 Q Andrea George, is she on the genealogy?  27 A No.  28 Q No. Nicole George, is she on the genealogy?  2 9 A No.  30 Q No.  31 A They have a brother named Lawrence also.  But I  32 couldn't make the connection so I couldn't put it on  33 there.  34 Q And which house is Lawrence in?  35 A He is Stanley's brother.  36 Q So you say he is in Goohlaht?  37 A Well, she has sort of accepted them into her house but  38 I couldn't make a connection because their mother, her  39 name was Sarah, and she was from -- she was from the  40 east, Nautly, I think.  And she was married to Joe  41 George, Joseph George.  42 Q So, what we -- the conclusion we have come to is you  43 say they are all in Goohlaht but you say they are not  44 on the genealogy of Goohlaht, 1064?  45 A Yes, I couldn't connect it because I didn't know how  46 they were related and I think she has just accepted  47 them because they are Gitselyu and they would probably 18090  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  be shown on another genealogy in Nautly.  Q   In which?  A   Nautly.  Q   What's that?  A   That's a little village near Fort Fraser.  MR. MACKENZIE:   I see.  Well, my lord, I would refer your  lordship to interrogatory 24 of Lucy Namox where Lucy  Namox points out the living members of her house and  the Georges are listed there.  THE COURT:   Which ones did the witness say were not on the  genealogy?  MR. MACKENZIE:  Stanley George, Norma George, Andrea George,  Nicole George.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  A   Stanley has a brother, Lawrence.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q   And he is not mentioned  he is not on the genealogy,  is he?  A   No.  MR. MACKENZIE:  He is not on the genealogy and he is not on  Goohlaht's list or Lucy Namox's list, interrogatory  24.  Q   Do you know Christopher Namox?  MR. GRANT:  With respect, my lord, I think that you are aware  that the -- in reading that listing on 24, the answer  in full response should be referred to by my friend.  This interrogatory, of course, has not been put in  front of this witness but I think that answer, as long  as your lordship has the paragraph at the beginning  starting following "Members of my house..."  and she  puts the provisos in the answer.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Confirmed by this witness.  Q   Now, I would like to put that interrogatory 24, which  is Exhibit 1068, to Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, please.  Interrogatory 24.  Now, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, what you  have there is Lucy Namox's list of house members, whom  she recalled in January, 1987, she says these persons  are known to her or have been identified by others who  have knowledge of the house to be living members of  the house.  So you understand we are talking about  living members?  A   Yes.  Q   Did you understand that?  A   Hm-hmm.  Q   Yes?  Could you say yes, please?  A   Living members? 18091  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   Yes.  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Now, I am just going to now look at the genealogy as  4 well, which is Exhibit 1064, and first I want to ask  5 you to look at page one and Albert Mitchell is right  6 there and you know him, don't you, he is on the top  7 line on page one?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   You know him.  And he was born in 1938?  10 A   Hm-hmm.  11 Q   And he was alive in 1987?  12 A  Albert Mitchell?  13 Q   You testified that you knew Albert Mitchell?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   He was alive in 1987?  16 MR. GRANT:  Which page are you referring to?  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  Page one of Exhibit 1064.  18 MR. GRANT:  Well, I am sorry but just to be — I see an Albert  19 Mitchell there and my friend has referred to Alfred  20 Mitchell.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  I am sorry, I am saying Albert Mitchell or  22 Michell.  23 Q   You see him there on page one?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And you said you knew him?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And he was alive --  28 A   I didn't know him personally.  29 Q   I see.  So, you knew of him?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And was he alive in 1987?  32 A  As far as I know.  33 Q   Well, I guess if he is alive now he would have been  34 alive in 1987, correct?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   You show him as being alive there, correct?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   On Exhibit 1064.  He doesn't seem to appear on Lucy  39 Namox's list, so Lucy Namox doesn't -- didn't recall  40 Albert Mitchell —  41 MR. GRANT:  My lord, what can this witness say about what Lucy  42 Namox did or didn't recall.  It speaks for itself.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  I haven't asked a question yet.  I am just  44 prefacing the question.  45 Q   Which do you say is correct, Lucy Namox's list without  46 Albert Mitchell or your genealogy with Albert  47 Mitchell? 18092  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   I don't know.  She must have forgot.  2 Q   I see.  Okay.  Let's look at page two.  3 A   Two of the genealogy?  4 Q   Yes, page two of the genealogy.  And looking up at the  5 top there, you said that you knew Mary Skin?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And she is alive today?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And she doesn't appear on Lucy Namox's list so which  10 is correct, Lucy Namox's list or your genealogy,  11 Exhibit 1064?  12 A   I don't know.  I would have to ask Lucy.  13 Q   Yes.  And also Frances Skin and Frank Skin don't  14 appear on Lucy Namox's list?  They are all in  15 alphabetical order there.  You would have to ask Lucy  16 about that?  17 A   Yes.  18 MR. GRANT:  They are in alphabetical order.  I am not sure but I  19 have only gotten down to page six, which ends with  20 Pierre on her list.  Maybe my friend could help me in  21 that regard.  I don't have a copy of the interrogatory  22 with me but I ended at Pierre, which ends with P which  23 suggests that nobody after the Ps are in the house  24 which may not be quite correct, even on Lucy Namox's  25 answer.  Is there a page seven that my friend has?  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  It's interrogatory 25 starts at the bottom of  27 page six and I have the complete interrogatory if my  28 friend wishes to look at them.  29 THE COURT:  You say the two page list is the complete list for  30 interrogatory 24?  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  32 MR. GRANT:  I think your lordship can see that it does appear  33 they are put in in alphabetical order on this list and  34 they end with Pierre.  Without having mine I can't --  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  36 Q   Let's look at a couple of others then.  Mr. Grant was  37 referring to the Skins who are S, which comes after  38 Pierre, but perhaps we could look at the lower right  39 hand corner of page 2 on the genealogy, Bills, Bonnie  40 and Benny Bill, they were both born in 1965?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   They are still alive?  43 A   Yes, as far as I know.  44 Q   And you say they are members of the house of Goohlaht?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   They don't appear on Lucy Namox's list, interrogatory  47 24? 18093  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  That's Bonnie and Benny.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  Benny, Bill, B-I-L-L.  3 Q   You have no explanation for that?  4 A   No, I don't.  5 Q   Okay.  6 A   Rose lives down here in Vancouver.  7 Q   Oh, yes.  And Emma Mitchell, that is just over on page  8 3 there, do you see her, the right-hand side of page  9 3, do you see that on the genealogy, the far -- I beg  10 your pardon, it's the far left hand side?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   She doesn't appear on Lucy Namox's list either?  13 A   No.  14 Q   So Lucy doesn't seem to have known about her or  15 remember her.  And continuing on page 3, you see John  16 Michell, whom you know, on page 3.  17 THE COURT:  Where on page 3?  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  About the middle of the page, my lord.  19 A   Yes.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  You see that, my lord?  21 THE COURT:  John Michell?  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  Right in the middle of the page.  23 THE COURT:  Born in 1947?  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  2 5 THE COURT:  Yes.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  27 Q   He doesn't appear on Lucy Namox's list either, Lucy  2 8 seems to have forgotten about him, you don't have any  29 explanation for that, do you?  30 A   Lives right next door to his dad.  31 Q   You say he is in the House of Goohlaht?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Now looking at, down at the bottom of page 3,  34 Christopher Tom, do you see that?  35 A   Yes.  3 6 Q   And Emily Tom?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   They are both born in 1985?  39 A   '82 and '85.  40 Q   '82 and '85.  They were alive in 1987?  41 A  As far as I know.  42 Q   And they are alive today?  43 A   Yes.  44 MR. GRANT:  Which page?  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  Page 3.  46 Q   And as my friend Mr. Grant pointed out, they don't  47 appear on Lucy's list either, do they? 18094  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38    ]  MR. GRANT  39    ]  MR. macke:  40  Q  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  No, they don't.  Continuing over --  But that's her sisters.  But you say -- sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you?  That is her sister that lives right next door to their  dad.  You know them, don't you?  Yes.  But Lucy doesn't seem to have included them in her  list, Lucy Namox.  Staying on page 3 of Exhibit 1064,  moving along the bottom line you come to the Kales,  Dennis Kale, born 1971, and Bernard Kale, born 1972,  do you see those?  Yes.  And they are not on Lucy's list either, are they?  No.  Lucy Namox's list.  And continuing along that line,  Tania Smitz and Barry Smitz, Tania was born in 1979  and Barry born in 1981 and they are alive today?  Yes.  And they are not on Lucy's list either, are they?  Is there a page seven?  That's what Mr. Grant was asking.  I think maybe we  should ask you some names that come before P, just in  case there is a problem there.  But this is the  interrogatory, I have the full interrogatory before  you.  Just continuing along the bottom line of page 3,  I think I will just finish with page 3, because I have  approximately 50 more members of the -- on the  genealogy, who don't appear on Lucy Namox's list in  1987.  But as far as the Josephs are concerned,  Tiffany, Garton, Natasya and Vanessa, they are all  alive today, correct?  Yes.  And they are all born before 1983?  Yes.  Yes.  :  Tiffany is a Joseph and the others are Georges.  JZIE:  Sorry.  Tiffany Joseph is not on Lucy Namox's list, and Garton  George, Natasya George, and Vanessa George are not on  Lucy Namox's list.  So it appears that although you can't testify about  what Lucy Namox knows, in January of 1987, she did not  recall the names of these people whom you say are  members of her house?  Hm-hmm. 18095  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   But she knows these people, doesn't she, to your  2 knowledge?  3 A  As far as I know, yes.  4 Q   Yes.  5 A  Well, some of them are her brothers.  It's just like  6 anyone else, I am just sure, she has got a large  7 family and her own children.  8 Q   Yes.  Well, I am going to suggest to you that there  9 are about 60 or 70 names on the genealogy which have  10 not been included in Lucy Namox's list in January of  11 1987, but there is one name that is included and that  12 is on page six, which is Stanley Morris, at page six  13 of Lucy Namox's interrogatory, which you have in front  14 of you there, page six of the interrogatory, which you  15 have in that binder, do you see that, Stanley Morris?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And do you see that?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And he is Caspit, isn't he?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And you say he is shown in the House of Caspit on the  22 genealogy?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Okay.  One other point I wanted to ask you about  25 Goohlaht is, are you aware of the custom of sharing  26 chiefs' names?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Do you know what Stanley George's chief's name is?  2 9 A   It's the same as Murphy's, Negh't.  30 Q   Yes, that is right, and he and Stanley George share  31 that name; is that right?  32 A   Yes.  Negh't used to be Phillip Alec.  33 Q   Did that —  34 A   Lucy's uncle.  That's why I said that she seems to  35 have accepted Stanley, because he is Gitselyu and she  36 has accepted him under Goohlaht, but I couldn't make a  37 connection.  38 Q   That's right, Murphy Namox is one of Lucy Namox's  39 children, isn't he?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And he shares a chief's name with Stanley George,  42 doesn't he?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   But Stanley George doesn't appear on Lucy Namox's  45 genealogy or on the genealogy, Exhibit 1064, you have  46 already agreed to that?  47 A   That is right. 18096  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   As far as sharing the names, how does that work, do  2 they take -- is there a chief's seat that they  3 alternate in or do they both -- are they both known  4 benefit the same name, is that how it works?  5 A  Well, one usually doesn't attend most of the feasts.  6 Like I know Stanley doesn't attend all of the feasts  7 but I have seen Murphy attend most of them.  8 Q   But Stanley would have a right to attend and sit in  9 Murphy's seat?  10 A   I think it's mainly because of Phillip, he indicated  11 during his lifetime that he wanted Stanley to take the  12 name.  13 Q   But somehow Murphy got it also?  14 A   Yes, because he is more involved with the business in  15 the feast.  16 Q   Okay.  I have finished with that genealogy, my lord.  17 What I want to put to you, is that it appears, can  18 you agree with me, it appears that there are many  19 names on the genealogy which were not on Lucy Namox's  20 list in February, 1987; can you agree with that?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And you have no knowledge of how those names came to  23 be added to the genealogy in that two-year period, do  24 you?  25 A   No, I haven't any knowledge.  26 Q   And is it fair to say that over the next two year  27 period, additional names will be added.  28 MR. GRANT:  I object, my lord.  What's the relevance of that?  29 Our case is closing.  30 THE COURT:   It goes to the question of reputation.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  32 Q   What I was saying is that it's fair to say, isn't it,  33 that more names will be added to the genealogy in the  34 next two years, because of people being born into the  35 house?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And because more names are discovered, common  38 ancestors, for example?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And, of course, the names, I suppose the names of  41 Stanley George and Norma George would be added to the  42 genealogy, because you say here they are in the house?  43 A   I have no idea if they would be added.  I can't say  44 what Goohlaht will do.  45 Q   I am sorry.  I guess what I am asking you say they are  46 in the house, they should be on the genealogy,  47 shouldn't they? 18097  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  THE  COURT  32  33  34  35  36  MR.  MACKE  37  38  THE  COURT  39  MS.  KOENI  40  THE  COURT  41  MR.  GRANT  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  GRANT  44  45  46  47  THE  COURT  Well, I personally couldn't make the connection so it  wasn't put on there.  But you told us that all the members, as far as you  know, are on the genealogy, this is the exception,  isn't it?  Yes.  So will you add these to the genealogy?  Me?  Yes, Stanley George --  I don't see me working on that genealogy or any of  these genealogies except my own after this.  Okay.  Well, are you -- you can agree with me that one  of the reasons for the genealogy is sto determine who  gets compensation when damages are awarded?  I wasn't given that indication.  Okay.  Do you know anyone who has been approached and  refused to go on the genealogy?  Not if they are related, I haven't heard of them  refusing to be on there.  Did you check with Stanley to see whether he agreed to  the genealogy being presented without his name on it?  Stanley?  George.  George?  No.  You didn't check with Norma George to see if she  agreed to the presentation of this genealogy, Exhibit  1064, without her name, did you?  No.  No.  I want to ask you some questions about the Woos  genealogy, which is Exhibit 1066.  Mr. Mackenzie, is it getting unrealistic to think  that you're going to complete your cross-examination  and leave any time for the next witness this afternoon  before 6 o'clock?   If it isn't we should at least  accomodate the witness by letting him go.  ZIE:  I don't think there will be very much time.  I  think that I am going to be another half an hour.  And you will be sometime, Ms. Koenigsberg?  'ñ†SBERG:  Not very long.  Maybe ten minutes.  How long will the witness be?  I am sorry, the next witness?  The next witness.  Mr. Rush was leading him, Mr. Skoda is here.  I had  understood, I hadn't spoken to Mr. Rush all morning,  but he had been scheduled for this afternoon and  completed in two hours.  We are not going to get to him today.  So it's 1809?  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  MR.  GRANT  5  6  7  THE  COURT  8  9  MR.  GRANT  10  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  macke:  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  45  46  Q  47  unrealistic to keep him waiting.  He can go until  tomorrow morning.  I can only sit until 5 o'clock  tomorrow night but we can do that if we have to.  :  Yes, and given that one of our witnesses that we had  scheduled for tomorrow afternoon, we still have some  optimism that we can.  :  All right.  Mr. Skoda can take the rest of the day  off then.  I wish we could join him.  :  My lord, that was scheduled for ten tomorrow; is  that right?  :  Yes.  All right, Mr. Mackenzie.  JZIE:  Now, the rule in the Wet'suwet'en society is that the  names pass through the matriline, correct?  That's right.  But that wasn't the case with Roy Morris, was it?  No.  He was born in the House of Spookw, wasn't he?  Yes.  That's your house?  Yes.  His mother was in the House of Spookw?  Yes.  And is Roy Morris still a member of the House of  Spookw?  No.  So, if he were to say that he was, that would be  incorrect?  That's right.  Roy Morris took the name Woos after Topley Matthew Sam  died, right?  Yes.  About 1978 or 1984?  Sorry, I will rephrase the  question.  In the early '80s?  Yes.  Yes.  Now, Roy Morris, when did Roy Morris become a  member of the House of Woos?  As far as I understand, it was when he was given that  name.  That's correct.  Yes.  He took the name after the  death of Topley Matthew Sam so it wasn't Topley  Matthew Sam who adopted him, was it?  I think one of the things that happened was Topley  Matthew Sam indicated that he wanted Roy to take that  name.  And Roy came into the house after Topley Matthew Sam  died and he took the name Woos, correct? 18099  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A He was given that name, yes.  2 Q And do you know Seymour Dennis?  3 A I don't know him personally.  4 Q You have heard of him?  5 A Yes.  6 Q And he was the -- a member, he is a member of the  7 House of Woos, correct?  8 A Yes.  9 Q And he lives in California now, correct?  10 A Hm-hmm.  11 Q And he was the person who was in line to take the name  12 Woos, correct?  13 A Yes.  14 THE COURT:  What was his name?  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  Seymour Dennis, S-E-Y-M-O-U-R, D-E-N-N-I-S.  16 Q It's fair to say that there was some controversy over  17 that succession, wasn't there?  18 A Yes.  19 Q Yes.  Does Seymour Dennis appear in the genealogy of  20 Woos, Exhibit 1066?  21 A Probably not.  I can't say for sure.  22 Q Let me suggest to you that he doesn't appear in that  23 genealogy, can you agree with me?  24 A It's because I didn't realize him.  25 MR. GRANT:  Who was that?  26 A Seymour Dennis.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  28 Q Didn't realize?  29 A Yes.  30 Q You didn't realize that he wasn't included on the  31 genealogy?  32 A I heard mention of him and I didn't think about it now  33 until you mentioned it.  I heard mention of him.  34 Q So he is someone whose name should be on the Woos  35 genealogy?  36 A Yes.  37 Q And you obviously haven't spoken to him to get his  38 approval for this genealogy, have you?  39 A No, because I have never seen him and I have never  40 seen him at a feast and I think that's one of the  41 reasons why Roy was chosen to take the name because of  42 his working closely with Topley Matthew Sam, because  43 someone has to be responsible and, you know, to care  44 for the house and what's happening.  And Roy was  45 always working with the old man.  46 Q Seymour Dennis, you didn't see him at the feast?  47 A I don't know him to see him at all. 18100  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   Attendance at the feast is not a requirement to be a  2 member of the house, is it?  3 A   No.  4 Q   No.  But because you didn't see him at the feast,  5 that's the reason why he wasn't included in the  6 genealogy?  7 A   No, that's not true.  8 Q   Sorry, I misinterpreted you.  9 A   I heard of him and I didn't connect him to find out  10 more about him.  11 Q   Now, are there any other people who don't come to the  12 feast who are members of the house but who are not on  13 the genealogy, the Woos genealogy, Exhibit 1066?  14 A   Not to my knowledge.  There is a lot of them on there  15 that don't participate because some of them live away.  16 Q   You weren't able to speak to them, were you, to see  17 about having them approve the genealogy?  18 A   No.  19 Q   No.  But it's certainly possible that there are  20 people, such as Seymour Dennis, who are in the house  21 but aren't on the genealogy?  22 A   It is possible, yes.  23 Q   And once you find out who those people are, you want  24 to add them to the genealogy, won't you?  25 A   Roy, maybe, but not me.  26 Q   That's right.  Yes.  Does Roy Morris speak for the  27 House of Spookw at the feasts?  2 8 A   No.  2 9    THE COURT:  Spookw?  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, Spookw, my lord.  31 Q   No?  32 A   No.  33 Q   Now, I would like to draw your attention to Exhibit  34 1066, referring to page nine and ten.  Do you have  35 those handy?  3 6 A   Hm-hmm.  37 Q   Yes.  Now you told his lordship that all the people on  38 this genealogy of Woos were members of the House of  39 Woos, correct?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And the members of the house are related by blood, are  42 they not?  43 A   Some are, some that are adopted aren't by blood.  44 Q   That's correct, yes.  You will agree with me that the  45 lineage after page ten is not connected in any way  46 with the lineage before page nine?  47 A   Pardon? 18101  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  35  THE COURT  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  MR. macke:  42  Q  43  44  45  46  A  47  Q  You will agree with me that there is no connection  between the lineage after page ten and the lineage  before page nine?  You see my question there?  Yes.  Do you say they are connected?  No, I didn't say that.  Well they are --  What did you ask?  I am sorry, I asked can you agree there is no  connection shown?  Yes.  And now my next question is:  Do you say in fact that  they are connected in some way?  Well, I know that Gyolugyet sits right next to Woos in  the feast.  So you are saying that Gordon Hall sits next to Roy  Morris?  Yes, and they say that he is in the House of Woos.  Yes.  Well, actually, what I am asking you about is  these people from page nine backwards, back to the  beginning, and the people from page ten ahead in the  genealogy, Exhibit 1066, and I am asking you, you say  those two lineages are connected in some way?  I just  draw your attention to pages nine and ten which shows  the break between them.  So, did you get my question?  That there is a break in the --  No, you agreed on the break, and then the next  question is:  You say that there is a connection there  somehow that's not shown.  I think there probably is but I can't see it on these  pages.  Right.  So you say there must be a connection, right?  Yes, because that's what they tell me.  It's the  same --  :  Because of what?  It's because of what I hear about this house.  They  say that they are very close, you know, like Gordon  Hall like you see on here, and Woos, and it's the same  as Goohlaht and Caspit.  But I have to put it there  like this, because that's how I see it.  JZIE:  Yes, actually, you are speaking about Gordon Hall who  appears on page ten and Roy Morris who appears on page  11, and they are connected by the lines on this  genealogy?  Yes.  What about the people who come before, all these 18102  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  A  4  5  Q  6  THE COURT  7  8  A  9  10  MR. macke:  11  Q  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  21  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  people from Madeline Sam Antoine Jimmy, Emma Jimmy,  these people on page eight and nine?  I am sure there is a connection but I can't see it  yet.  That's the point.  :  Do you understand that all the members of your House  of Spookw are blood relatives?  No, I don't understand that at all.  Because some  aren't  blood members.  JZIE:  For example, Steve Robinson is not related to anyone  else.  And Frank Clark wasn't related to anyone else in the  House of Spookw?  No.  So then the question comes, how do you know that they  are in the house if there is no relation in the  genealogy?  Because it's just the way the decision was made in the  Feast House, in the case where of someone is sort of  caretaker for a name.  That's right.  You assume there is a blood connection  but you don't know what it is?  I don't know what it is that's why I can't show it.  You say there may be a common ancestor or something?  Yes.  But you don't know and it's not shown on the  genealogy?  No.  When you find it as you do your research, you may add  it and change the genealogy?  Maybe for my own personal satisfaction I would but I  wouldn't go out and do it for the house.  They would  have to deal with that themselves.  If they are not connected on the genealogy, there is  no connection by blood, they can't be in the same  house, can they?  When they tell me that they are closely connected, I  have to accept that.  I see.  All right.  So that's what we are relying on,  you are relying on what they are telling you rather  than what's shown on the genealogy?  Yes, that is right, and the way they work together in  the feast hall.  And we have spoken about this before, but it appears  again on pages ten and 11 of the Woos genealogy, we  just don't know who the people are at the very top 18103  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 lines, do we?  For example, at the top of page 11 you  2 see the line going up off the end?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   We don't know who that is, do we, we don't know who  5 those two people are at the top of that line going up  6 at the top left hand corner of page 11, do we?  7 A   No, there is no name there.  But there is because  8 otherwise how would that person just pop out of  9 nowhere.  10 Q   Good point.  11 A  Must have parents.  12 Q   Good point.  But you don't know who they are?  13 A   No.  14 Q   And no one knows who they are?  15 A   I am sure someone knows who they are, it's just that I  16 haven't had the time to go out and find it out.  17 Q   And they might be the missing link between the two  18 parts of the house but you don't know?  19 A   That's right.  20 Q   And the genealogy doesn't show that?  21 A   Right.  22 Q   And you don't know who that person is who is the Big  23 Seymour's parents either?  24 A   No, not with the ones that have no names on it, no, I  2 5 don't.  26 Q   That's right.  27 THE COURT:  Big Seymour, where is that?  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, that's on page ten — it's the top of  29 page ten, Big Seymour.  30 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  We have put a circle in there but we didn't  32 identify who it was.  33 A  All I know is he used to be Gyolugyet, that's all.  34 Q   You assume that Big Seymour's mother had the chief's  35 name Gyolugyet; is that correct?  36 A  Mother or uncle.  37 Q   Mother or uncle?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   But you don't know who that person, who that person is  40 that was Big Seymour's mother or father?  41 A   Not at this minute, no.  42 Q   That's right.  It's possible that they could be, it  43 could have been a Gitksan person, couldn't it?  44 A   There are some Gitksan in there.  45 Q   That's correct.  And these people whom we haven't  46 identified could be from anywhere, it could be  47 non-Indians, you didn't know? 18104  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  What do you mean from anywhere?  We come from  2 somewhere.  3 Q   Of course you do, yes, but I am saying we don't know  4 who these people are at the top of the genealogy  5 because they are not identified?  6 A   No, there is no name to it.  But we know they are  7 there.  8 Q   But we don't know whether they are Wet'suwet'en or  9 Gitksan or who they are, do we?  10 A   Not at this minute.  I personally don't know but one  11 of these probably know.  12 Q   One of the people --  13 A   I don't know.  I have to find out for myself.  14 Q   And you are continuing with this search to find out?  15 A  Maybe for my own personal curiosity but not for the --  16 the house itself has to do this now.  17 Q   Of course.  So the house will have to keep searching  18 to find?  19 A   They would have to keep updating it.  20 Q   Yes, that's right.  And you would have to, you said  21 that you would have to speak to the people on this  22 genealogy to determine what the names of the people  23 are at the upper levels of the lineage; is that  24 correct?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   But you haven't spoken to these people except for Roy  27 Morris, is that correct?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   And Roy Morris just -- not just, Roy Morris approved  30 your presenting this evidence but he didn't give you  31 this evidence, did he?  32 A  Well, if I had more time to work on this, I sure would  33 have found out, I am sure.  34 Q   Yes.  35 Q   Now, do you know if -- you haven't looked at any birth  36 certificates of these people on the genealogies, have  37 you?  38 A   No.  39 Q   You haven't checked the death certificates?  4 0 A   No.  41 Q   You haven't checked the baptisymal certificates?  42 A   No.  43 Q   You don't have personal knowledge of the dates these  44 people were born and died except the people you know  45 very well; is that right?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And you have no knowledge of what Antonia Mills or 18105  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Heather Harris did in that respect, that is checking  2 the certificates?  3 A   No, but it should be in the notes that you people  4 have.  5 Q   But you don't know about it?  6 A   No.  7 Q   No.  Now, filing the affidavit of Roy Morris and his  8 interrogatory answer number 24, this affidavit is  9 sworn January 11, 1987.  10 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  11 THE COURT:  That will be Exhibit 1068-3?  12 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, my lord.  13  14 (EXHIBIT 1068-3:  AFFIDAVIT OF ROY MORRIS SWORN  15 JANUARY 11, 1987)  16  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  18 Q   Now, Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, let me ask the registrar to  19 take that -- you have the Woos genealogy, can I ask  20 the registrar to give you Roy Morris's interrogatory  21 response number 24, please.  22 Now, this is an answer that Roy Morris gave saying  23 "These are the members of my house whom I recall, and  24 their place of residence."  25 MR. GRANT:  My friend should read it all, please.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  27 Q   At any rate, this is a list, this is a response Roy  28 Morris gave in January, 1987, and you see it continues  29 over on to page six?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Now just looking at that -- and these are the living  32 members of the house -- looking at that list, can you  33 agree with me, before I go through the names on the  34 genealogy, that there are many, many, many names on  35 the genealogy which are not on this list?  36 A   Looks like it, yes.  37 Q   I am going to suggest to you there are in excess of  38 100 names on the genealogy which are not included on  39 this list?  40 MR. GRANT:  My friend has clearly done some addition, but I  41 don't know how the witness can do that unless she sits  42 and counts and compares them.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  I am not asking you to do that.  44 MR. GRANT:  That can be dealt with in argument.  45 THE COURT:  You say there is over 100, Mr. Mackenzie?  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  47 Q   But what I do want to ask you about is, I want to ask 18106  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  THE COURT  46  47  you about some of the names on the genealogy, Exhibit  1066.  And, for example, looking at page one, and I am  going to ask you about some of the names that are not  on the list, Exhibit 24, for example, Angeline Tommy,  you heard of Angeline Tommy, didn't you?  Yes, and I know her.  And you know her as well.  To your knowledge, does Roy  Morris know her?  He should, yes.  Why would he know her, to your knowledge?  Because I have -- well he know her he was there when  Madiik got his name and all the family was there.  Yes.  When you say that, do you mean Betty Brown and  Simon Brown, those people?  Yes, they were all there when Jimmy Brown got the name  Madiik.  Yes.  So Roy Morris knows those people, doesn't he?  Yes.  And can you say whether Roy Morris knew those people  in 1987?  Oh, yes.  Yes.  So he didn't have them on his list of people in  the House of Woos and you can't -- you don't have an  explanation for that?  No, I don't have an explanation for that.  Just looking -- going right over to page 11 in the  genealogy, which is Exhibit 1066, page 11, and you  have on page 11 Amelia Dennis and Simon Dennis, about  in the middle of page 11 of the genealogy, to your  knowledge, does Roy Morris know those people?  I don't know who Roy knows according to this list.  He  must know them.  He must know them?  He must.  But they are not on his list, are they?  No.  Well, I won't go through the rest of them, the rest of  the names on the genealogy, which are not on the list,  exhibit or interrogatory number 24.  I have completed my questions on Woos, my lord.  Now, I would like to refer you briefly to the  Smogelgem genealogy, Exhibit 1065, and I am filing  Leonard George affidavit sworn January 14, 1987 and  interrogatory response number 24.  :  Tab 4 of 1068. 18107  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (EXHIBIT 1068-4: AFFIDAVIT OF LEONARD GEORGE SWORN  2 JANUARY 14, 1987)  3  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q   Now, this genealogy, Exhibit 1065, contains --  6 THE COURT:  You mean tab 5?  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  Pardon?  8 THE COURT:  You don't mean 10 65?  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  1065, yes, my lord.  10 THE COURT:  I am sorry.  Yes.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  12 Q   This genealogy, Exhibit 1065, is slightly different in  13 that it contains the names of the house of people in  14 the House of Kloumkhun and Smogelgem; is that right?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And do you say those are separate houses?  17 A   Pardon me?  18 Q   Sorry.  You say those are separate houses, Kloumkhun  19 and Smogelgem?  20 A   Yes.  It's the same as the other ones we have just  21 dealt with that have the same situation.  22 Q   Well, let's look at this then, let's look at the break  23 at page 2, the break between page 2 backwards and page  24 3 forwards, the break in the lineages there, do you  25 see that?  26 A   Page 2 and --  27 Q   Yes, you see that on page 2 where there is a break  28 between the pages so that you have a lineage on page  29 one and three quarters of page 2 and a lineage that  30 goes from the last quarter of page 2 onward, do you  31 see that?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   You say those are all members of the same house?  34 A  Well, this is Smogelgem.  35 Q   You are referring back to the earlier lineage on page  36 one and two, you say that's Smogelgem?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   I am sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, did you  39 say that's Smogelgem?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   So all the members on that page one and two backwards  42 are members of Smogelgem?  43 A   Page one and there is some Kloumkhun on page 2.  44 Q   They are tied into Smogelgem there, aren't they?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   Johnny Mack is Kloumkhun, isn't he?  47 A   Yes. 1810?  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   But you see at the break that I have pointed out to  2 you between the lineage that starts at the last  3 quarter on the lower part of lower right hand of page  4 2?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   You see the break there?  7 A   Yes.  That's Kloumkhun.  8 Q   You say Kloumkhun goes forward from there?  9 A  Well, I better check to see if they are all there.  10 That's Kloumkhun to page five then six is Smogelgem,  11 Q   There is a break at --  12 A  And —  13 Q   And the last part --  14 A   Six goes a bit into seven for -- that's Smogelgem.  15 And then seven over to the right where it says Patrick  16 Pierre, that starts Kloumkhun.  17 THE COURT:  On page seven there is another break is there?  18 A   Yes, where it starts with Patrick Pierre, over to your  19 right.  On to page eight is Kloumkhun.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  21 Q   That comes from page 2 which was Kloumkhun, in that  22 area too?  23 A   Yes.  There is Johnny Mack who was Kloumkhun on there.  24 Q   And Mary Francis is Kloumkhun and her lineage is  2 5 Kloumkhun?  26 MR. GRANT:  Down or up?  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  Down.  She is at the top of the page.  28 A  Mary Francis, that was -- that's Art's mother, I  29 think.  Page seven.  Yes, that's -- that's Kloumkhun.  30 Q   Okay.  Fine.  There are at least three separate groups  31 in here, aren't there, and some are Kloumkhun and some  32 are Smogelgem, right?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And you say there must be a connection because they  35 are all inter-related?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   But, so, there is no -- we discussed this in the  38 other, there is no connection shown on the genealogy  39 but you say there must be a connection?  40 A   Yes.  41 MR. GRANT:  Well, there is a connection shown that the witness  42 described in direct.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  44 Q   There is no connection shown between the lineage on  45 page 2 forwards and no lineage from page 2 backwards,  46 we have already agreed on that, there is a break  47 there, and there is no connection between five and six 18109  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 between those two lineages so I think Mrs. Wilson-  2 Kenni has agreed to that.  But your point is that --  3 sorry.  Your point is that there should be a  4 connection somewhere?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And we have discussed this, it's just not shown on the  7 genealogy.  8 So the question again for you is:  How do you know  9 these people are in the same house if there is no  10 connection shown on the genealogy?  11 A   I finished, just finished separating them for you,  12 Smogelgem and Kloumkhun.  And the reason for that is  13 that the way they work together in the feast.  They  14 treat each other as if they were the same, even though  15 they know that they are two different houses.  16 Q   Well, you pointed out two sets of Smogelgem, didn't  17 you?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   But they are not related on the genealogy, are they?  20 You pointed out a Smogelgem on page one and a  21 Smogelgem on page six?  22 A   Right at this point I am not able to connect it.  23 Q   That's the point, yes.  Yes.  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And it's the same explanation that you gave before,  26 you are relying on what you see at the feasts,  27 correct?  28 A   Yes, and what I hear from some of the elders.  29 Q   But you have no personal knowledge of any connection  30 between the house, because that's not shown on the  31 genealogy?  32 A  Well, I didn't -- what was your question again?  33 Q   You have no have personal knowledge of the connection  34 between the two sets of Smogelgem here because it's  35 not shown here?  36 A   Personally but I am sure that there is an answer to  37 it.  38 Q   And where would you have to go to get that answer?  39 A   To the -- I would have to ask the elders in this,  40 these two houses.  41 Q   That's correct.  That's right.  Well, the fact that  42 there is no connection shown indicates that the elders  43 weren't asked, is that fair to say?  44 A   It's what -- it's what I know as of this minute,  45 that's all.  46 Q   But you didn't check with the elders to find out what  47 the connection was? 18110  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Some of it I did, yes.  But I still couldn't make the  2 connection, I didn't have the time to go and I didn't  3 expect to be doing this.  4 Q   I see.  I understand.  You would want more time to go  5 and talk to the elders and fill in the connections?  6 A   If I had known that I was going to be doing this, yes.  7 Q   Yes.  Okay.  On this Smogelgem genealogy, there is  8 no -- there are a few birth dates given but you don't  9 have personal knowledge of those birth dates and death  10 dates?  11 A   No.  12 Q   You haven't checked any birth certificates or death  13 certificates?  14 A   No.  15 Q   Now, I am looking at, I am looking at Leonard George's  16 interrogatory number 24, and you got his approval to  17 give this evidence you told us?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Yes, that's right.  But you didn't discuss the actual  2 0 names with him, did you?  21 A   No.  22 Q   He didn't examine the names on this genealogy and say  23 "I agree that these names are correct"?  24 A   Pardon?  I am getting tired and I am not hearing you  25 half the time.  26 Q   That's perfectly reasonable.  27 Leonard George didn't say, "I approve of these  28 names on the genealogy", he didn't say that?  29 A  All he said to me was that "I trust you to present it  30 for me."  And that's all he said to me.  31 Q   Now Leonard George has given a list, interrogatory 24,  32 of the living members from the house whom he  33 remembered in January of 1987.  Now, do you know  34 Charlie Bazil?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And which house is he in?  37 THE COURT:  What page is he on?  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  I am looking at interrogatory 24, page five at  39 the top, does your lordship have that reference?  4 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  And I am asking the witness which house that  42 person is in.  43 THE COURT:  Is he in the genealogy?  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, my lord.  45 A   He is one of the ones that I can't recall which  46 houses, but he says it's in Smogelgem so it must be.  47 Q   Yes, but he is not on the genealogy, is he? 18111  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A No, because -- I know him but I didn't realize that he  2 was --  3 Q Clearly, Leonard George knows him also?  4 A Yes.  5 Q And do you know Jenny Bazil?  6 A I probably do but right at this minute, I can't put a  7 face to this name.  8 Q Do you know -- okay.  Fine, you don't know.  She is  9 not on the genealogy, is she?  10 A No, I don't recall those names.  11 Q Mary Louise Bazil, do you know her?  12 A There again, I probably do know her but I can't place  13 her face in my mind right now.  14 Q She is not on the genealogy, is she?  15 A No.  16 Q Earl Holland, do you know him?  17 A I can't say that I do.  18 Q He is not on the genealogy, is he?  19 A No.  2 0 Q Ray Holland, do you know him?  21 A No.  22 Q He is not on the genealogy, is he?  23 A I don't think so.  24 Q Susan Holland, do you know her?  25 A I probably know her but I can't place her face in my  26 mind right now.  27 Q She is not on the genealogy, is she?  28 A I don't think so.  29 MR. GRANT:  Which name was that?  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  Susan Holland.  31 Q Abel Joseph, do you know him?  32 A Yes.  No, I know of him.  33 Q Which house is he in?  34 A He is a son of -- he is the son of Lucy Brown.  And  35 that should be Kloumkhun.  36 Q I see.  37 A Because he is the one from, originally from  38 Gitsegukla, that's his great grandfather.  39 Q And he is not on the genealogy, is he?  40 A No, he should be right under Lucy brown.  41 Q Now Lucy Namox has Abel Joseph in the house of -- beg  42 your pardon, Leonard George -- sorry.  43 MR. GRANT:  The witness referred to Lucy Brown that's on page  44 four of the genealogy, my lord.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  Sorry, my lord.  Thank you, Mr. Grant.  46 Q Leonard George says that Abel Joseph is in the House  47 of Smogelgem but you disagree with that, you say he is 18112  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 in Kloumkhun, correct?  2 A   That's how they treat each other, as if they were in  3 the same house.  It's the same way with the people in  4 Kloumkhun, they consider themselves as one but yet  5 they are two different houses.  And that is why it's  6 like this.  Because I have to go by what they are  7 saying.  8 Q   You are referring to the genealogy?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Well, there are about 20 other names on this list of  11 Leonard George which are not on the genealogy, Exhibit  12 1065, let me just ask you about a couple of them.  I  13 am sorry, I have made a mistake.  Please don't -- I  14 made a mistake, it wasn't 20, there are several other  15 names on the list of interrogatory 24, Leonard George,  16 which are not on the genealogy.  Let's me ask you  17 about some at the end of the list on page seven.  18 Do you know Adrian Williams?  19 A   I was sure that was on there.  I was sure it was on  20 the genealogy but Chester Williams and Donna Williams  21 are on there.  22 Q   You said you are sure it's on the genealogy?  23 A   I have to check because it looks familiar.  24 Q   You say you know him?  You know Adrian Williams?  25 A   No, not Adrian Williams, no.  I saw these other --  26 which other names are -- I was looking ahead.  27 Q   You are looking ahead.  Let's stop at Adrian Williams,  28 you don't know him, he is not on the genealogy, is he?  29 A   I am not too sure.  30 Q   Do you know Bernard Williams?  31 A   Those names are familiar but I can't place it right  32 now.  33 Q   Bernard Williams is not on the genealogy, is he?  34 A   I would have to check to see if he is not on there.  I  35 can't remember.  36 Q   Now, about the other Williamses, do you know any of  37 them?  38 A   Chester Williams and Donna Williams.  39 Q   Okay.  40 THE COURT:  What did you say about Chester Williams?  41 A   I was pretty sure that that was one.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  43 Q   You know Chester Williams?  44 A   No, I heard of him and Donna Williams.  45 Q   You heard of Donna Williams?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And do you know which house they are in? 18113  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   That's what I was wondering whether it's Smogelgem or  2 Kloumkhun.  It's probably Kloumkhun.  Because -- yeah.  3 Q   You think it's Kloumkhun?  4 A   I am not too sure.  I would have to check.  5 Q   I suggest to you that none of the Williamses are on  6 the genealogy, but you can't really tell right now?  7 A   There are those two names that I remember.  8 Q   Yes.  And just to finish off with Smogelgem and  9 Kloumkhun, on page one of the genealogy you have  10 Antoine Tom and he is quite well-known, isn't he?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And you say he is a member of the House of Smogelgem.  13 He is on page one of the genealogy at the right  14 hand -- the second line on the bottom right hand, see  15 him there?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And does Leonard, to your knowledge, does Leonard  18 George know Antoine Tom?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   Antoine Tom isn't on Leonard George's list in January  21 of 1987.  But you don't have any knowledge of the  22 reason for that?  23 A   No.  24 Q   Okay.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I am going to file some other  26 interrogatories, responses, without asking questions  27 about them.  28 THE COURT:  All right.  Whose interrogatory is it?  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord, it's — this is interrogatories of  30 Kloumkhun, and the affidavit of Doug Tait sworn  31 February 4, 1987 and interrogatory 24.  32  33 (EXHIBIT 1068-5:  AFFIDAVIT OF DOUG TAIT SWORN  34 FEBRUARY 4, 1987)  35  36 THE COURT:  That will be 1068-5.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.   And the next one is the  38 interrogatories response of Sylvester William,  39 Hagwilnegh, sworn -- affidavit sworn January 13, 1987  40 and interrogatory 24.  41  42 (EXHIBIT 1068-6:  AFFIDAVAIT OF SYLVESTER WILLIAM  43 SWORN JANUARY 13, 1987)  44  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  The interrogatories response of Lucy Namox on  46 behalf of Samooh, affidavit sworn March 30, 1987.  47 18114  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (EXHIBIT 1068-7:  AFFIDAVIT OF LUCY NAMOX SWORN MARCH  2 30, 1987)  3  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  Interrogatories 1 and 24.  5 THE COURT:  1068-7.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  This is Lucy Namox on behalf of Samooh,  7 interrogatory 1 and 24.  8 THE REGISTRAR:  I don't have 24.  9 THE COURT:  We don't have number 24, Mr. Mackenzie.  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  Interrogatory 24.  11 THE REGISTRAR: There it is.  I have it.  12 THE COURT:  Yes, we have them both.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  14 Q   So, I am going to say, I am going to comment in  15 summary that those interrogatories show similar  16 relationships and facts as we have been discussing for  17 the Houses so far and Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, you have  18 already said you didn't get a chance to speak to  19 Sylvester Williams, I think it follows also that he  20 didn't have an opportunity to look at the names on the  21 genealogy and approve them, that's a fair statement,  22 isn't it?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Yes.  25 A   He is dead.  26 Q   Yes, that's correct.  And so we say is that the same  27 case with Doug Tait, he didn't look at the genealogy  28 and approve of the people on it?  29 A   That's right.  30 Q   Did you say that also of Lucy Namox and the genealogy  31 of Samooh, she didn't actually examine the genealogy  32 and approve it?  33 A   No.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  I have no further questions.  Thank you.  35 THE COURT:  All right.  Do you have some cross-examination?  36 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I am afraid I do.  37 THE COURT:  I think we will adjourn until tomorrow then.  38 10 o'clock please.  39  40  41 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO 10 O'CLOCK A. M., WEDNESDAY, JULY 5,  42 1989)  43  44  45  46  47 18115  D. Wilson-Kenni (For Pltfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Wilf Roy  Official Reporter

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