Open Collections

Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-06-09] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jun 9, 1989

Item Metadata


JSON: delgamuukw-1.0019805.json
JSON-LD: delgamuukw-1.0019805-ld.json
RDF/XML (Pretty): delgamuukw-1.0019805-rdf.xml
RDF/JSON: delgamuukw-1.0019805-rdf.json
Turtle: delgamuukw-1.0019805-turtle.txt
N-Triples: delgamuukw-1.0019805-rdf-ntriples.txt
Original Record: delgamuukw-1.0019805-source.json
Full Text

Full Text

 17283  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 9 June 198 9  2 Vancouver, B.C.  3  4 SUSAN MARSDEN, Resumed:  5  6 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  7 MR. JACKSON:  My lord, as you may be aware, the Court of Appeal  8 was handing down its judgment in the Westar injunction  9 and Mr. Grant is in the Court of Appeal and will be  10 joining us in a while.  11 THE REGISTRAR:  In the Supreme Court of British Columbia.  12 THE COURT:  Excuse me.  It is safe to proceed then, is it?  13 MR. JACKSON:  Yes, it is, my lord.  14 THE REGISTRAR:  The 9th day of June, 1989.  Delgamuukw versus  15 Her Majesty the Queen at bar.  May I remind you you  16 are still under oath.  17 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  18 THE REGISTRAR:  Would you state your name for the record?  19 THE WITNESS:  Susan Marsden.  20 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  21 THE COURT:  Mr. Willms.  22  23 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLMS:  (Continued)  24 Q   My lord.  My lord, it might be helpful to have 1051,  25 the grey binder, that I have been filling up.  I am  26 going to add some documents to that.  Miss Marsden, I  27 am showing you a document that -- that is entitled at  28 the top of it, Personal Names.  Guxsan, Giskaast,  29 Kitsegyukla; Informant, Kathleen Marsden; Recorder,  30 Susan Marsden.  This is information that you recorded  31 in 1976 from Kathleen Marsden?  32 A   Yes.  33 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, 1051-4.  34  35 (EXHIBIT 1051-4 - DEFT.'S DOCUMENT - PERSONAL NAMES)  36  37 MR. WILLMS:  38 Q   And just -- all of the information that you have put  39 on here is information given to you by Kathleen  40 Marsden?  41 A   Yes.  This was before I was doing any work, and I was  42 interested in the Indian names as I had been since I  43 was up there, and I wrote it down and then when I  44 started to work at the Tribal Council I added this  45 information to other information that counsel  46 requested me to provide for them in preparation for  47 the case. 17284  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   And at the time, as indicated on the document,  2 Kathleen Marsden held the name Miingemgen,  3 M-i-i-n-g-e-m-g-e-n?  4 A  At that time, yes.  5 Q   I am showing you a document entitled The line of  6 succession of Guxsan:  Informant Kathleen Marsden,  7 August 1984; Recorder, Susan Marsden.  This is  8 information you recorded again from Kathleen Marsden?  9 A   Yes.  But this was supersede -- I stopped doing this  10 kind of work when the genealogies started working.  11 This was, once again, informal, it was an informal  12 gathering.  13 Q   But the information that is contained on this document  14 was provided to you by Kathleen Marsden?  15 A   Yes.  16 MR. WILLMS:  1051-5, my lord.  17 THE COURT:  Yes.  18  19 (EXHIBIT 1051-5 - DEFT'S DOCUMENT - THE LINE OF  20 SUCCESSION OF GUXSAN:  INFORMANT:  KATHLEEN MARSDEN)  21  22 MR. WILLMS:  23 Q   Showing you a multi-page document, the first page of  24 which is entitled "Kitsegucla Fireweek Clan" in the  25 upper left-hand corner.  Dealing with the first page,  26 is this a document you prepared?  27 A   No.  2 8 Q   No.  Can you turn to -- have you seen this document  29 before?  30 A   I haven't seen pages 1 and 2.  I don't think I have  31 seen pages 3 and 4.  I have seen similar sketches but  32 I may have seen that -- no, I don't think I have seen  33 that, and I haven't seen the last page.  34 Q   And the writing on pages 3 and 4 is not your writing?  35 A   No.  36 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, I would like to mark that for  37 identification, not -- obviously the witness hasn't  38 seen it, but our information indicates that it may  39 have -- our advice is that it may have come from this  40 witness and so I'd like to mark it for identification  41 and follow up on that.  42 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  43 THE REGISTRAR:  Tab 6.  44 THE COURT:  1051-6 for Identification.  45  46 (EXHIBIT 1051-6 FOR ID. - KITSEGUCLA FIREWEED CLAN  4 7 DOCUMENT) 17285  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2 MR. WILLMS:  3 Q   Thank you, my lord.  4 A   So you don't know who did this?  5 MR. WILLMS:  Our information is we thought you did but could be  6 wrong.  7 THE COURT:  Do you know who?  8 THE WITNESS:  No, I don't.  Well, I was looking at the — I  9 don't even know -- the person who did this kind of  10 head table thing was Heather, but I am not familiar  11 enough with her printing to know if this was hers but  12 I don't -- it is certainly not mine.  13 MR. WILLMS:  It is likely my mistake, my lord.  14 MR. JACKSON:  I suspect Mr. Grant, who led these witnesses, will  15 be able to tell us who in fact prepared this document.  16 THE COURT:  Might be able to, but maybe he will decline that.  17 MR. WILLMS:  18 Q   Let me try another one.  See whether I have more  19 success.  I am showing you a document that's entitled  20 Account of the succession to the name of Guxsan,  21 Kathleen Marsden, August 1984; Recorder, Susan  22 Marsden.  You recorded this from information provided  23 to you by Kathleen Marsden?  24 A   Yes, I provided this to Kathleen.  This is personal  25 information.  26 MR. WILLMS:  1051-7.  2 7 THE COURT:  Yes.  28  29 (EXHIBIT 1051-7 - DEFT'S DOCUMENT - ACCOUNT OF THE  30 SUCCESSION TO THE NAME OF GUXSAN)  31  32 MR. WILLMS:  33 Q   Now, in the second paragraph of this, it says:  34  35 "The name Miingemgen goes with the seat right  36 across from Guxsan.  This seat means that that  37 person takes the name Guxsan when the present  38 holder passes away."  39  40 So was it your understanding that this is the second  41 ranked name in the House of Guxsan?  42 A  At that time -- no, not at the time of the recording;  43 at the time of the events that I am talking about here  44 that she was telling me about.  45 Q   But what Kathleen Marsden was telling you was that,  46 according to Gitksan law, after Guxsan passes away,  47 Miingemgen should become Guxsan? 17286  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 A  Well, those relationships can change over time  2 depending on the wealth and strength of the  3 individuals; for example, the name -- the leading name  4 of the house can change as in the case of Axtihix and  5 Tenimgyet, and it is the same with the second ranking  6 seat, and what's recorded here is an internal dynamic  7 in the house which is within Gitksan law.  Kathleen  8 was in line for Guxsan.  9 Q   And at the time she was in line for Guxsan, Matthias  10 Wesley was Guxsan; correct?  11 A   That's correct.  He had chosen her as her heir -- as  12 his heir and that is something that's common, and it's  13 also common after the person -- the chief has died,  14 the people in the house and possibly related houses  15 get together and decide amongst themselves and they  16 take into consideration the desires of the chief but  17 they don't always follow through with them.  It is a  18 weighing process they go through.  19 Q   So but what happened here was when Matthias Wesley  20 died, Herbert Wesley, who had the name Hanooyak,  21 H-a-n-o-o-y-a-k, took the name Guxsan; correct?  22 A   That's right, that's right.  23 Q   Do you know the relationship between Herbert Wesley  24 and Matthias Wesley?  25 A   I am not sure of that off the top of my head.  I know  26 the -- I know they were in the same house.  27 Q   All right.  28 A   I didn't do genealogies.  29 Q   You don't know whether they are father/son, brothers?  30 A   I know they are not father and son because he wouldn't  31 have inherited -- well, I just know that.  I know who  32 Matthias Wesley's sons were.  I was at the feast when  33 Herbert got the name.  34 Q   What Kathleen Marsden told you, just carrying on in  35 the middle of that paragraph:  36  37 "Kathleen felt that this was against tradition and  38 against the wishes of Matthias.  As a result she  39 took her son Billy who was then Axdesimskii and  4 0                  when he was given the name Hanooyak (which had  41 been Herbert's name) she placed him in her seat  42 across from Guxsan, stating thereby that, if  43 Hannoyak was to be the successor to Guxsan, then  44 he should sit across from Guxsan.  'They broke the  45 tradition, so I did too.'"  46  47 And that quote there, that's exactly what Kathleen 17287  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Marsden told you, "They broke their tradition, so I  2 did too"; correct?  3 A   Gee, I don't know.  4 Q   Isn't that what you mean when you put a quote down on  5 something that you are transcribing?  6 A   Yes, but by tradition she doesn't mean law.  7 Q   Oh, I was going to suggest to you, Miss Marsden, that  8 this is a clear violation of Gitksan law; isn't it?  9 A   No.  As in all cultures, there are political dynamics  10 within the institutions and they are -- they are  11 sometimes very intense, they are often very subtle,  12 and there is a range of things that are acceptable in  13 terms of those political dynamics, and one of them is  14 changing the status of names within the house, and  15 that's why -- that's why, as I said, you know, even  16 within the time frame of the case, there have been  17 changes in terms of the leading name of the house.  18 Q   So -- and just to clarify, tradition to you is  19 different than law?  20 A  Well, are you asking in terms of the way she used the  21 word tradition?  22 Q   Yes.  You understood when she told you, "They broke  23 the tradition, so I did too", she just meant some  24 tradition but not law, not Gitksan law?  25 A   I'd have to ask her now, but I am almost -- I can say  26 with a great deal of assurance that she would never  27 say to me, "I broke the law".  If she had ever broken  28 the law, as she sees it, she wouldn't ever talk about  29 it.  It would be a really -- a really negative thing.  30 Q   Did you say earlier in your evidence that she does not  31 have a name now, a chiefly name?  32 A   That's right.  33 Q   You describe that as being unusual?  34 A   I wasn't at the feast where that occurred but that was  35 pursuant to this.  It's part of the ongoing situation.  36 And the names changed and in the -- she laughed about  37 it afterwards, and in the -- that in the political  38 dynamic that was going on, she forgot to give herself  3 9 a name.  40 Q   I beg your pardon, she what?  41 A   She forgot to give herself a name.  42 Q   Oh, I see.  43 A   But I am sure she's corrected that since or intends  44 to.  45 Q   Names are pretty fluent in Gitksan tradition; is that  46 correct?  47 A   No, they are not.  They are really quite strict 172?  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 actually.  I mean, everything has its parameters and  2 what may appear to us as being fluent simply indicates  3 a wide range of possibility but, at the outer edges of  4 that possibility, things are very strict.  5 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, I would like to mark -- I have handed up a  6 blue binder and what is contained in the blue binder  7 are extracts from the Gwenhoot of Alaska, from Wolf  8 Clan Invaders, and from Temharh'am, Land of Plenty,  9 and also from Raven Clan Outlaws, and the extracts  10 that are in this have not been marked in any of Miss  11 Marsden's material, so it's not a duplication of  12 what's already been marked by Miss Marsden.  These are  13 adaawks and parts of what Barbeau did which are not  14 part of what Miss Marsden marked, and I would ask that  15 this be -- the binder be the next exhibit number.  16 THE COURT:  Are you able to deal with this, Mr. Jackson?  17 MR. JACKSON:  This is the first we have seen of it, my lord.  I  18 haven't had a chance yet to --  19 THE COURT:  Mr. Willms, you look surprised at that.  20 MR. WILLMS:  Well, my lord, certainly this is the first time  21 they have seen this blue binder, but what's inside it  22 is what the witness looked through, and she has picked  23 out selections of the adaawk.  24 THE COURT:  But your friends haven't seen this collection?  25 MR. WILLMS:  Not in this form.  2 6 THE COURT:  And they haven't been made aware of the fact that  27 you were going to put this to the witness?  28 MR. WILLMS:  That I was going to mark the other adaawks?  2 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  30 MR. WILLMS:  No.  31 MR. JACKSON:  By way of clarification, my lord, I am unclear as  32 to whether these are in any of the binders.  As I  33 understood my friend, you are saying these aren't in  34 any of the binders we have tendered as exhibits.  35 MR. WILLMS:  They are not.  36 THE COURT:  They are not in any of the documents you have  37 tendered previously?  38 MR. WILLMS:  No.  Well, some of them are, my lord.  I tried to  39 collect them all in one place.  Some of them have been  40 marked in Dr. Daly's, some of them have been marked  41 with Heather Harris.  Odds and ends have been marked  42 here and there.  Some have never been marked before.  43 If I can put it this way, my lord, Miss Marsden  44 described in her evidence earlier that the Barbeau  45 works were divided into a part 1 and a part 2, and  46 that what was being marked through her was the part 2  47 part, not the part 1 part.  Some of the part 1 parts 17289  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 have been marked before; for example, your lordship  2 will recall part 1 or may recall the Barbeau  3 description that was put to Dr. Daly from Wolf Clan  4 Invaders, that is the passage under the glacier.  Also  5 Raving Clan Outlaws part 1 was also put to Dr. Daly,  6 so most -- much of this has been marked before, some  7 of it hasn't.  The parts that haven't come from the  8 same material that Miss Marsden described in her  9 evidence earlier.  10 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, I am going to allow it to be  11 marked.  It is part of the literature on this subject  12 and, if there is a problem with it, Mr. Jackson, after  13 you have had a chance to look at it and Mr. Grant has  14 seen it, the matter can be spoken to again.  15 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1053.  16 THE COURT:  And how would you describe this?  This is a  17 collection of Barbeau adaawks.  18 MR. WILLMS:  It is a collection -- on the very front, my lord,  19 of the book, it is -- these are extracts from Gwenhoot  20 of Alaska by Barbeau, Raven Clan Outlaws by Barbeau,  21 Wolf Clan Invaders by Barbeau, and Temlarh'am, Land of  22 Plenty by Barbeau.  So they are all from either  23 Barbeau's actual writing, which is part 1 of each  24 collection, or the actual recorded adaawk which is  25 either recorded by Barbeau or recorded by Baynen.  2 6 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  27  28 (EXHIBIT 1053 - EXTRACTS FROM GWENHOOT OF ALASKA,  2 9 RAVEN CLAN OUTLAWS, WOLF CLAN INVADERS, AND  3 0 TEMHARH'AM, LAND OF PLENTY)  31  32 MR. WILLMS:  33 Q   And Miss Marsden, could you turn in Exhibit 1053 to  34 tab 16, and you have heard what I just described to  35 his lordship, Miss Marsden.  What, for example, in  36 Raven Clan Outlaws, part 2 contains the adaawks, and  37 it might help you if you turn to the second page of  38 tab 16, the second part -- well, it says Table of  39 Contents.  If you turn to the Table of Contents page  40 which is the second page in at the tab, the first  41 part, the Introduction is pages 1 to 26.  Those are  42 written by Barbeau, correct?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And then the second part, which is the true narratives  45 from 27 on, those are the adaawks that Barbeau or  46 Beynon recorded; correct?  4 7 A   Urn — 17290  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   Now, they are not all here, the whole index isn't  2 here, but this is just an illustration.  The index --  3 I believe the index goes on further than 22 adaawks?  4 A   In one of them, he seems -- he used these true  5 narratives for his own rewrite, but usually the second  6 part where he says true narratives adaawk is the exact  7 transcription from the translator, but on the next  8 page -- all right, well, go ahead.  9 Q   Right.  So what I have put before you here in tab 16,  10 Miss Marsden, are pages 1 to 26 of Raven Clan Outlaws  11 and you recognize this as Dr. Barbeau's writing; it's  12 not -- this isn't his recording of an adaawk, this is  13 Dr. Barbeau's writing?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   Yes.  16 A  Well — yes.  17 Q   When you reviewed the adaawks collected by Dr.  18 Barbeau, you reviewed part 1 and part 2 of each of the  19 adaawks, the collections; is that correct?  20 A   No.  When I first started using this body of  21 information I read his -- his writings over but  22 because they are so much a compilation of information,  23 I couldn't identify in each case where he got the  24 reason for saying this and where he got the reason for  25 saying that.  And therefore I couldn't really compare,  26 so I just used the originals because that's what he  27 used and any information that was in his writing that  28 wasn't in the originals and that I couldn't locate the  29 source or wouldn't be useful to me.  30 Q   You knew here at tab 16 of Exhibit 1053 that what  31 Barbeau was -- what Dr. Barbeau was trying to do was  32 chronologize the adaawks that followed, correct?  33 A   Yes.  He felt in each case that he -- I think he felt,  34 I assume, that he was writing an overall history of  35 that clan.  That's what he was trying to do, I think.  36 But, you know -- well, go ahead.  37 Q   Could you turn to page 4 of tab 16 and in the  38 middle -- sorry, in the paragraph in the middle of the  39 page just starting above the three hole punch, Dr.  40 Barbeau says this:  41  42 "The Kanhaades from time immemorial had been one of  43 the exogamic moieties or halves in a social  44 order brought over from Siberia by the remote  45 ancestors.  One half or moiety intermarried with  46 the other.  The opposite moiety, devoid of a  47 general name in Alaska, lately assumed, amongst 17291  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 the Tsimsyans alone, that of the Wolf, or  2 Larh-Kibu ( 'On-The-Wolf') ."  3  4 Now, just pausing there, is that something that you  5 understood that the Wolf Clan is, a lately assumed  6 name?  Did that -- was that a conclusion you came to  7 after reading the adaawks?  8 A  Well, there is -- intertwined with what he is saying  9 here, there are things that I agree with.  The fact  10 that the Frog Clan were one of the exogamic moiety,  11 that's what the adaawk seemed to indicate, that the  12 Frog Clan had a sense of what a clan was more than any  13 other clan.  That they brought it over from Siberia is  14 something that is not stated or indicated in any way  15 in the adaawk.  So I assume he is using the  16 anthropological idea of the Bering Strait migrations  17 and so on as part of his writing here.  And then the  18 other, when in the very early adaawk, discussing for  19 example up in the Tahltan area and the Laxwiiyip area,  20 they do say that.  They say that the Raven Clan had a  21 sense of who they were.  They came from one single  22 ancestor and the Wolves came from different groups and  23 adopted the name Wolf.  Now, that is, in the earliest  24 adaawk that take place within the territory that I  25 have been dealing with.  There is no indication that  26 that took place, you know, in wherever beyond that  27 where he is sort of implying that it did.  28 Q   He carries on and says:  29  30 "To this day the Tlingits never have systematized  31 its name or crest, nor have the Haidas at any time  32 admitted into their own ranks the Wolf as a clan  33 emblem. "  34  35 Is that consistent with your review of the adaawks?  36 A  Well, what he is referring to there I think is what I  37 found with the Wolf-Eagle phenomenon, that the  38 Wolf-Eagle can be a group and I say this in my report,  39 or when they are the only people they separate into  40 Wolves and Eagles so that they can intermarry because  41 that's the dominant thing.  You have to have this  42 group and this group and you have to intermarry.  And  43 when they are paired with the Frogs, then they become  44 one group.  Among the Tlingit, I think what he is  45 referring to there is that among the Tlingit in the  46 north, they refer to this group as the Eagles and to  47 the south as Wolves but they see themselves overall as 17292  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 one group, those Eagles and those Wolves.  And in  2 terms of the Haida, when I was started -- when I read  3 the Haida text and the descriptions of the social  4 organization I realized that the cresting system among  5 the Haida is really quite different.  It's different  6 to a certain extent among the Tlingit also.  And I  7 didn't feel that I had the time to do a really indepth  8 analysis of the Haida and I didn't deal with that.  I  9 only dealt with those texts in the Haida that  10 specifically discussed events that had taken place in  11 the territories that I was working with.  12 Q   So you don't know whether or not they have the Wolf as  13 a clan emblem among the Haida?  14 A   No.  That's not an area that I worked in.  15 Q   Okay.  Now, he then carries on:  16  17 "If the two main moieties in Alaska, the  18 Yukon, and northern British Columbia have  19 become known to us as Ravens and Wolves, it is  20 merely due to cultural changes under the influence  21 of the white man."  22  23 You agree with that, don't you?  24 A   No.  25 Q   All right.  Carrying on to the next page, the top of  26 page 5.  27 A  And does he go on -- I am sorry.  28 Q   Yes, he goes on to say a few things.  The top of page  29 5, he says this:  30  31 "The Wolves split up into halves or moieties --  32 one of them, the Wolves proper, and the other, the  33 Eagles, in imitation of the Russian imperial  34 crest."  35  36 First of all, Miss Marsden, you know that the Russian  37 imperial crest was an Eagle?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Do you know --  40 A   I am familiar with this theory, yes.  41 MR. GRANT:  I think the Austrian one was too.  42 MR. WILLMS:  43 Q   There has been evidence given in this case that it's  44 been the subject of debate all over the cultural  45 history of Europe as to whether the indigenous  46 cultures had their own Eagle or whether they adopted  47 the Russian or the Hungarian Eagles.  You know that's 17293  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 been a debate in folklore for generations, or did you?  2 A   I am aware that there is a debate, yes.  I am not  3 aware of the intricacies of it.  4 Q   Now, do you accept what Dr. Barbeau says here, that  5 the Eagles split off from the Wolves in imitation of  6 the Russian imperial crest?  7 A  Well, I have never read anything that he's written  8 that's argued that opinion and it certainly doesn't  9 fit in my opinion with the body of information that I  10 have worked on, and I know also that when Duff was  11 speaking to Beynon, that Beynon expressed concern that  12 some of Barbeau's theories were not -- not his  13 understanding of the adaawk.  14 Q   Beynon was Tsimshian?  15 A   Beynon was half white, half Tsimshian.  He was  16 Barbeau's main recorder and often an informant for him  17 later on.  18 MR. WILLMS:  Now, Dr. Barbeau carries on on page 5:  19  20 "The Eagle moiety or phratry, at the height of  21 the fur trade with the Russians and the British,  22 rose to the first rank among the Tsimsyans, the  23 Haidas, and the Southern Tlingits."  24  25 That is an accurate statement, isn't it?  2 6    THE COURT:  You say that's on page 5.  27 MR. WILLMS:  28 Q   It's at the very top of the page at the second  29 sentence, my lord.  30 A   No.  As I said in my evidence yesterday, the rise  31 of -- to power of Gispaxloots was a long process that  32 started when he first attacked the Gitselas  33 approximately in 1480, given the internal time dating  34 of Wars of Mediik, and continued on right through  35 until the first contact with the fur traders and right  36 into the time period when Port Simpson was on the  37 coast when Legyarh married his daughter to Dr. Kennedy  38 in order to formulate -- form an alliance with the  39 Hudson's Bay Company.  There is a long span of the  40 growth of power of the Eagle and it's not the Eagle as  41 such; it's that particular group of Eagles and that  42 particular house in that particular village, I am  43 sorry, that he is referring to there.  He is  44 generalizing.  45 Q   You will agree that the adaawks indicate that in the  46 19th century, among the coast Tsimshian, the Eagles  47 exerted an influence on the Gitksan as well, and on 17294  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 the social and political life of the Nass?  2 A   Could you refer me to that paragraph, please?  3 MR. WILLMS:  I am just putting the question to you generally  4 from the adaawk.  From your assessment of the adaawk,  5 will you agree that in the 19th century, among the  6 coast Tsiamshian, the Eagles exerted an influence not  7 only on the coast Tsiamshian but on the Gitksan as  8 well and on the social and political life of the Nass?  9 MR. GRANT:  I think there is more — I think my friend should  10 break his question up because there is a number of  11 questions implicit in that.  He is talking about  12 two -- two groups.  13 MR. WILLMS:  14 Q   Oh, okay.  Will you agree with me that, based on your  15 review of the adaawks, that in the 19th century the  16 Eagles, the coast Tsiamshian and Eagles exerted an  17 influence on the Gitksan?  18 A   Exerted an influence.  This powerful house and related  19 houses of Legyarh were trying to take full control of  20 the fur trade within Gitksan territory.  And as I  21 tried to explain yesterday that method was to form an  22 alliance, a trade alliance, with the group and get  23 exclusive trading rights and Legyarh wanted exclusive  24 trading rights, not among the whole Gitksan, but  25 above -- in the upper reaches of the Gitksan at  26 Hazelton primarily and the Hagwilget and at Kispiox.  27 The Gitselas people already had trading rights with  2 8 the Kitwanga and Legyarh never managed to make inroads  29 into those.  When he was unable to get exclusive  30 trading rights when he discovered that other people  31 were trading with these Gitksan, then he waged war on  32 them.  That is the influence that that house had at  33 that particular time in history.  34 MR. WILLMS:  Now, carrying on on page 5 at tab 16 of Exhibit  35 1053, there is a discussion of two names that we see  36 in many of the adaawks at the last line of that page,  37 Copper-Shield, Haimas, h-a-i-m-a-s.  38 THE COURT:  Where are you?  Sorry, what page did you say?  39 MR. WILLMS:  I am on page 5, my lord, of tab 16.  It is in the  40 second paragraph at the very last line.  41 THE COURT:  Yes, thank you.  42 MR. WILLMS:  43 Q   And Stone-Cliff, Legyarh.  Now, Legyarh was an Eagle  44 and his name meant or was roughly translated as  45 Stone-Cliff; is that correct?  4 6 A   Yes.  That's what I have read.  47 Q   And Haimas, was he a Wolf? 17295  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 A   No, he was Frog.  2 Q   He was --  3 A   Raven, Frog/Raven.  4 Q   And Haimas translated is Copper-Shield?  5 A   The word for Copper-Shield is Hayetsxw.  I am not  6 familiar with Haimas as Copper-Shield.  It says here  7 bark sheath for copper shield, h-a-y-e-t-s-x-w, or  8 copper shield case.  That's not a word that I am  9 familiar with.  10 Q   That's the footnote at the bottom that you are  11 referring to, Hayaetsk, H-a-y-a-e-t-s-k, copper  12 shield, mass, bag or sheath of yellow cedar bark for  13 copper shield?  14 A  Well, I know the word Hayaetsk.  I see now that you  15 point that out that's there, yes.  16 Q   The name is either -- either Barbeau is right or it is  17 related to a copper shield?  18 A   I am sure that he is right.  I just said that I am not  19 familiar with that word in terms of my own vocabulary.  20 Q   One thing that's clear from the discussion on these  21 two pages by Dr. Barbeau is that, in his view, these  22 stories that he's discussing are historic, they are in  23 the historic period, because he's got the Eagles  24 breaking off in imitation of the Russian imperial  25 crest, and Legyarh's an Eagle?  26 A  Well, that's -- that's his opinion, yes.  27 MR. WILLMS:  Now, would you turn to tab 20 of Exhibit 1053.  28 THE COURT:  Sorry, tab 20.  29 MR. WILLMS:  30 Q   Tab 20, my lord, and it should be Wolf-Clan Invaders  31 from the northern plateaux.  Miss Marsden, again, if  32 you look at this, you will recognize this as being the  33 Foreword and part 1 to Wolf-Clan Invaders with part 2  34 being the Adaawk?  35 A   I don't think I have an index -- oh, I see, later on,  36 okay.  37 MR. GRANT:  I am sorry, is my friend -- he's put in an  38 introduction and part 1; is that right.  39 MR. WILLMS:  40 Q   Yes.  41 A   Yes, that -- your question was, is part 2 the true  42 narratives and part 1 his introduction?  43 Q   Yes.  44 A   Yes, that's my understanding.  45 Q   And you reviewed this before you prepared your report?  46 A  As I said before, I read his introduction when I first  47 started to do the work and decided to use the 17296  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 originals and the Duff files and not his opinions.  2 Q   If you just turn to the third page in at tab 20, the  3 page that's entitled Presentation.  At the very  4 beginning Dr. Barbeau says this:  5  6 "This monograph bears upon the southward migrations  7 of the native tribes of Alaska and the northern  8 Rockies.  It is the third in a series meant  9 implicitly to cover the territories of the Denes,  10 Tlingits, Haidas, Tsimsyans, and Kwakiutls, in the  11 light alone of the Tsimsyan adaorh - traditional  12 'true' narratives - as I have recorded it, from  13 1915 to the late fifties, among the thirty or so  14 nations of the Tsimsyans:  the Tsimsyans proper of  15 the seacoast, the Gitksans of the Upper Skeena  16 River, and the Niskaes of the Nass River."  17  18 Now, just pausing there, what Dr. Barbeau is doing in  19 part 1 is, by using Tsimshian informants, he is  20 attempting to construct an migratory monograph.  You  21 understood that when you read it?  22 A   He has -- what he did was he -- he didn't -- he didn't  23 account for all of the events in all of the adaawk.  24 He took those adaawk that indicated what he felt were  25 migratory sweeps and that's what he was interested in  26 primarily, and he formulated an opinion on the basis  27 of that.  There is no evidence of his having done a  28 very careful interrelating of events in order to  29 create a time depth.  He took an account that appeared  30 to him to be of a migration and then he related it to  31 what else he knew, and that's what he is writing in my  32 understanding.  33 Q   But you understood that he was trying to construct a  34 migratory monograph from the adaawk?  35 A   But not using internal chronologies to a great extent,  36 yes.  37 Q   So the difference between what you did and what he did  38 is, he was looking for external factors but he wasn't  39 looking at the internal factors that you looked at?  40 A  Well, you have to remember also that he -- that the  41 archaeological finds on the north coast were not  42 available to him at the time and it really wasn't  43 generally accepted then that there was a great time  44 depth to the occupation.  It wasn't that it wasn't  45 accepted, it was just that there was no archaeological  46 record.  And in the light of that, I suppose he -- and  47 in the light of the current Bering Strait theories and 17297  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 so on, he plugged these migratory accounts into what  2 was the current thinking at the time.  3 Q   And the difference is -- what you have done is you  4 have taken the internal time depth of the adaawks to  5 enable you to put the chronology in?  6 A  As I have said before, I put them in order internally,  7 I take internal indications of time depth, and I have  8 used archaeological dates to give me a sense of -- to  9 parallel that process.  10 Q   And what archaeological dates do you mention in your  11 report, just in your written report that's been marked  12 Exhibit 1050?  Perhaps Exhibit 1050 could be put to  13 the witness.  Maybe you could help me, Miss Marsden,  14 and point out --  15 A   No, I'd like to answer that question first.  It was on  16 the advice of counsel that I restricted my analysis in  17 my report to the adaawk.  I was conversant with  18 relevant archaeological dates that I assumed would be  19 discussed in evidence by somebody other than myself.  20 Q   So just so that I get it accurately, does your report  21 depend on the archaeology or not?  I mean, this -- if  22 there was no archaeological evidence whatsoever, would  23 your opinion be the same?  24 A  Would my opinion be the same?  That's a broad -- a  25 broad question.  Would all aspects of my opinion be  2 6 the same?  27 MR. WILLMS:  Yes.  If there is no archaeological information  28 referred to in your report, all right, assuming that  29 you had no archaeological information whatsoever,  30 would all aspects of your opinion be the same?  31 THE COURT:  What you are asking the witness, Mr. Willms, is  32 whether or not she has based any of her conclusions or  33 has been influenced in any way by archaeological  34 information.  35 MR. WILLMS:  36 Q   That's a better way to put it, my lord, thank you.  37 A   There are other -- there are other outside dating  38 sources, for example, the deglaciation information and  39 the volcano information.  If you took --  40 THE COURT:  Well, you relied on Dr. Gottesfeld for that, didn't  41 you?  42 THE WITNESS:  That is correct.  43 MR. WILLMS:  But did you rely on Dr. Gottesfeld?  44 MR. GRANT:  Let the witness finish maybe.  45 MR. WILLMS:  46 Q   I thought she had.  47 Did you rely on Dr. Gottesfeld to come to any of 1729?  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 the conclusions that you came to in your written  2 report?  3 A  My conclusions are twofold:  One is the sequence of  4 the events and the assessment of internal time depth;  5 the other is putting a numerical sequence with that.  6 In terms of the numerical sequence, when I first  7 started it, I did very early, early in the middle  8 range, post Temlaxam, there as an internal sequence,  9 there was a sense of great antiquity.  There was a  10 sense of very modern period.  Those are internal  11 things that stand no matter what dates there are.  In  12 terms of putting a numerical quantitative description  13 to that, I used outside sources.  14 Q   Before you wrote your report?  15 A   No, not before -- well, not all before, no.  There  16 were dates that I wasn't aware of until half-way  17 through, for example.  18 Q   But there were -- there was archaeological information  19 that you used in coming to some of the conclusions you  2 0              have come to in your report?  21 A   I'd really have to address that in a more specific  22 way.  It is an awfully general question.  23 Q   Well, you put dates in your report?  24 A   Under the headings, yes.  25 Q   You have dated the early period 10,000 to 7,000 B.P.  26 Do you recall?  27 A   Yes, and that's what I have just said, in terms of  28 putting a numerical sequence to it, I did use outside  29 information.  30 Q   All right.  And, similarly, at the beginning of each  31 section, and I am just showing you page 27, but you  32 know that you have got age, dates at the beginning of  33 each section?  34 A   That's what I just said, yes.  35 Q   In respect of each of those series of dates, did you  36 rely on archaeological information to come to those  37 conclusions?  38 A  And geological information and other scientific  39 information.  40 Q   But you didn't refer to that in your report because  41 counsel told you not to; is that right?  42 A  When I was instructed to write the report, I was  43 instructed clearly to rely upon the adaawk and not to  44 take assumptions from other -- to take conclusions  45 from other sources.  That was the nature of my  46 instructions, the adaawk and the statements of origin  47 and the information of witnesses in -- for example, in 17299  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Commission Evidence, the statements of the people  2 themselves as to their adaawk and their origins and  3 their history.  4 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, I am going to carry on but I am going to  5 have a submission on all the dating that I am going to  6 make at an appropriate time.  7 Now, can you turn to page 7 of Wolf Clan Invaders,  8 it is numbered 7 and there is a handwritten 14, I am  9 at tab 20 of Exhibit 1053.  There is a typed 7 and a  10 handwritten 14.  And in the middle of the page --  11 sorry, are you with me?  There is a typed number 7.  I  12 am at tab 20.  13 THE COURT:  It is after the first pink divider.  14 MR. WILLMS:  15 Q   Yes, after the first pink divider.  In the middle of  16 the page, Dr. Barbeau refers to the story of the  17 passage of Doubtful-Chief under the glacier, and  18 you're familiar with the adaawk of the passage under  19 the glacier?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   All right.  And your evidence I think in chief was  22 that the passage under the glacier predated Temlaxam?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   In the last paragraph, Dr. Barbeau on page 7 says  25 this:  26  27 "The passage is familiar enough in the traditions  28 of the Eagle and Wolf clans not to be a mere  29 episodic patter in a folk tale devoid of  30 historical contents.  Experts -- the late John  31 Muir, explorer and geologist, the late Forrest  32 A. Kerr, and George Hanson, geologists versed in  33 the formation of the Stikine region -- all accept  34 the Indian narrative as a fair indication of  35 what the Stikine Glacier must have been at one  36 time, not so long ago, when the Indians were  37 confronted with it in their drives down this  38 river.  It has now receded a very short distance  39 from the Stikine River, perhaps less than a mile,  40 after having somewhat pushed it out of its  41 course."  42  43 Just pausing there, if you turn to the top of the next  44 page -- well, maybe  I will carry on and lead.  The  45 top of the next page, Dr. Barbeau then says:  46  47 "From two to four hundred years ago, the arch under 17300  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 the glacier probably looked as it is described in  2 the Indian narratives.  But, in Hanson's opinion,  3 glaciers of similar formation in the same  4 neighbourhood have receded far more speedily than  5 the Stikine Glacier, if Kerr is correct as to  6 approximate dates."  7  8 Now, just pausing there, it is appropriate, is it not,  9 to look to geological information to attempt to date  10 an adaawk; is that correct?  11 A   Yes, yes.  This geological information is out of date  12 and it doesn't cover the full range of the Stikine  13 River, and the people who analyse the time depth of  14 glaciers state that, if there is a glacier coming  15 forward over the path of a previous glacier, that the  16 remains of that previous glacier are destroyed and  17 that they can't analyse.  They can only analyse the  18 furthest reaches; for example, if the glaciers go  19 across the river to here and then 2,000 years later a  20 glacier comes back and goes to here, all there is that  21 allows them to say that there was a previous glacier  22 is that part that sticks out further.  Now, if you  23 have a glacier in the past that is completely covered  24 over by a contemporary glacier, then all evidence of  25 the previous glacier is eliminated.  So if you are  26 using geological evidence to say that a previous  27 glacier was not there is impossible.  28 Q   You are saying you can't prove the negative?  29 A   That's correct.  You can, that's correct.  30 Q   But you can show there was a glacier there 200 to 400  31 years ago?  32 A   That's correct, but people who deal with glacier --  33 say there were glacial advances during several periods  34 over the last 10,000 years and that's the area of  35 their study, and the one that he is referring to here  36 is simply the most recent advance.  37 Q   If you turn to page 10, typed ten, there is, after Dr.  38 Barbeau describes in his own words what the Indians  39 coming down the river might have seen, he then quotes  40 from a description of the big Stikine glacier done in  41 1863 at the bottom of the page.  Do you have -- are  42 you with me?  4 3 A  Mm-hmm.  44 Q  45 "The 'Big Stickeen' Glacier had been described  46 previously, in 1863, by the American geologist  47 William P. Blake.  In his word picture we find the 17301  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  glacier as it stood, close to the river, about  eighty years ago."  And that he is quoting from Blake.  "At a point a short distance above the Scott River,  there is an Indian village.  These Indians..."  MR. GRANT:  Scoot.  MR. WILLMS:  Scoot, sorry.  "These Indians are quite different from the  Koloshes of the coast, and are evidently of the  great Chippewyan family.  They offered skins of  the sable for sale or barter, and had several fine  skins of cube of black bear..."  THE COURT:  Cubs, isn't it?  MR. WILLMS:  Cubs, thank you:  "...of black bear recently killed.  The glacier above presents a splendid appearance  in the sunlight, and extends for about two miles  along the stream.  The background is formed by  beautiful snow-covered peaks, from between which  the glacier issues, but its source cannot be seen.  The slope of the glacier is very gentle, and the  vast body of ice appears to be unbroken until it  reaches the valley of the river, where it breaks  down in massive ledges and pinnacles of the purest  crystal.  The foreground along the stream consists  of an ancient moraine now covered with trees,  among which willows and poplars are conspicuous in  their delicate green foliage of spring.  Some very  large blocks of granite standing in the river bear  witness to the vast transporting power of ice and  to a much greater extension of this glacier in  former periods.  From this part of the river a line of high and  rugged peaks is visible on the right or eastern  side of the valley, and at a considerable distance  from the stream.  The accumulations at the foot of the glacier  have evidently pushed the river outward, and they  have acted as a dam to the waters, which above the  moraine are quite deep and flow smoothly." 17302  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Just pausing there.  There is certainly nothing in the  2 description of that glacier if you expand it over the  3 river in the previous few years inconsistent with the  4 Doubtful-Chief passage under the glacier?  The adaawk  5 of the passage under the glacier has the glacier  6 cross -- covering the river and the river flowing  7 under it; correct?  8 A   Yes, that's correct.  9 MR. WILLMS:  So there is nothing —  10 MR. GRANT:  Let her finish.  11 MR. WILLMS:  12 Q   Sorry.  13 A   Go ahead.  14 Q   So there is nothing in that description, which was in  15 1863 of the receding glacier, inconsistent with the  16 glacier crossing the river shortly before and being  17 described in the adaawk?  18 A   It is my understanding that this geological research  19 has been superseded by others.  20 Q   Can you cite that?  21 A   I could get it for you.  22 Q   Oh, okay.  Well, perhaps you could get it.  So you say  23 that there is some geological research which now shows  24 that there was no glacier crossing the Stikine River  25 200 to 400 years ago?  26 A  Well, no, no, because there are several places along  27 the Stikine River where there are glaciers and where  28 it is possible that they cross the river.  I am not  29 familiar with this term the Scoot River and that's why  30 I am a bit at a loss here and that's why I don't want  31 to be too specific, but it is my understanding that  32 there is only one place along the river where it's  33 possible that the glacier could have extended right to  34 the other side so much as to create a tunnel  35 underneath.  36 Q   And did you rely on that geology in writing your  37 report?  38 A   I looked into the geology of the glacier, of course,  39 because it's -- it would have helped me a great deal  40 if there could have been a firm statement, a firm,  41 unequivocal statement as to the date, and what the  42 ultimate statement from all of the geological  43 information was that there was one place that it was  44 possible and that there is no way of dating -- of  45 dating it in terms of, because of the number of  46 advances over time, there is no way of dating this  47 specific event to one of those advances. 17303  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   And that's something that you relied on in writing  2 your report?  3 A  Actually I think it may be in evidence already.  4 Q   Okay.  But just to answer my question, is that some  5 evidence -- some information that you relied on in  6 writing your report?  7 A   That's part of the chronology.  That's part of my  8 attempt to find scientific dates that were unequivocal  9 that would help in the chronology, not in the  10 sequencing, but in the paralleling of dates.  11 Q   All right.  Well, perhaps you, through your counsel,  12 can find that information that you relied on in  13 writing your report and disclose it as soon as you can  14 locate it?  15 A   I understand it's been disclosed but I will do so.  16 MR. GRANT:  I can deal with it right now.  It was actually in  17 the bibliography of Dr. Hatler and it was, I believe,  18 a seven-page preliminary examination by June Ryder, I  19 can't recall if she is a doctor or not, and at the  20 time that Dr. Hatler gave evidence it was disclosed to  21 my friends.  I do not recall at this point whether --  22 I don't think they put it in evidence or utilized it  23 but it was in his bibliography and it was disclosed  24 and they have received a copy of it, so that is no  25 problem.  26 MR. WILLMS:  Now that I know what it is, my lord, I can mark it  27 as soon as I can get it over here.  I am very grateful  28 to my friend for telling me what the witness relied  2 9 on.  30 MR. GRANT:  Well —  31 THE WITNESS:  Could I — I didn't rely on that.  I explored that  32 possibility and decided not to rely on that.  33 MR. WILLMS:  Okay.  34 MR. GRANT:  If it had been relied on, it would have been in her  35 bibliography, my lord.  36 MR. WILLMS:  37 Q   Well then, that's an interesting distinction but I  38 will carry on.  39 At the bottom of page 11, Dr. Barbeau -- now, just  40 pausing there, what he is trying to do is he is trying  41 to date the adaawk based on a glacier to start with?  42 A   Yes, and he is doing what, if you apply yourself to  43 oral histories as history which Barbeau very clearly  44 did, and he states -- he states that they are not --  45 it was something you quoted earlier, that they are not  46 mere fantasies, and he was trying to approach it in a  47 similar manner in this aspect of his methodology to 17304  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 the way I did.  It is just that science evolves over  2 time and what was available to him has become more  3 sophisticated and there are new finds.  4 Q   And perhaps if there are new finds in another 20  5 years, your chronology will be out of date as well?  6 A   I think this sequencing would -- I feel very  7 comfortable with the accuracy of the sequencing.  8 Obviously if there is a new date, except the dates  9 seem to be getting older, not younger.  10 Q   But you will agree that with further scientific  11 research, your whole dating could change in 20 years?  12 A   I think the dates that I rely on are really quite well  13 established.  I tried to be very conservative in my  14 choice of key dates.  15 Q   But science could advance as much between now and the  16 next 20 years as it has since Duff wrote this --  17 Barbeau wrote this, couldn't it?  18 A  Well, that's a very broad statement.  For example, in  19 archaeology, I suppose there could be a total  20 revolution in carbon dating, which would change the  21 dates in archaeology, there has been that before, but  22 there are certain -- within the scientific fields  23 there are certain conclusions they come to that are  24 more stable over time than others and those are the  25 ones I have tried to rely on.  26 MR. WILLMS:  Like geology is fairly stable?  27 MR. GRANT:  Is that a question?  28 MR. WILLMS:  Yes.  I am asking her to agree with me that geology  29 is fairly stable over time.  30 THE COURT:  It is a very broad question, Mr. Willms.  Cominco  31 thought they had 25 years of reserves in something  32 like 1900 and they think they have 25 years of  33 reserves now.  34 MR. WILLMS:  What I meant was the geological formation, not the  35 man's application of the geology but I will move on.  36 At the bottom of the page there is a second  37 attempt by Dr. Barbeau to date this series of adaawks,  38 the bottom of page 11, and he says this:  39  40 "The reference in this glacier tradition to sea-  41 otter hunting..."  42  43 THE COURT:  I am sorry, do you think that's the end of the  44 quotation?  45 MR. WILLMS:  I think it is, my lord, because of the footnote 1  46 Ibid which, as I understand it, refers right back to  47 Blake. 17305  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  THE COURT:  I don't know what it refers to.  MR. WILLMS:  Well, I'd assumed that that was the end because  what then followed was a discussion of the tradition  rather than a discussion or a description of the  glacier.  THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  MR. WILLMS:  "The reference in this glacier tradition to sea-  otter hunting, after the Chiefs-Hill fugitive had  reached the salt water and joined a coast tribe,  is another detail suggesting a historical date.  Intensive sea-otter hunting developed only after  the Russians and other sea traders began to press  the natives, from the Aleutian Islands down to the  Tlingit country, into their service; that is, less  than two hundred years ago."  Once again, Dr. Barbeau has looked for something in  the historic record to compare the oral tradition  with; correct, that's what he's done?  That's his method, yes.  Certainly that's an appropriate thing to do, to search  the historical record in an attempt to date the oral  tradition?  But he has absolutely no way of proving that intensive  sea-otter hunting developed only after the Russians  arrived, I mean, because nobody was there before they  arrived, unless they told him that, and intensive  sea -- well, go ahead with your question, I am sorry.  MR. WILLMS:  Well then, he reaches for his third date at the top  of page 12, and it is a date that I think we have  heard about.  At the top of page 12, he says this:  "The passage under the glacier may not be much  older than two hundred years.  For the Wolf  fugitives no sooner had crossed the Tlingit  country, and entered the Nass River to the south,  than they experienced a fantastic cataclysm, which  deeply impressed itself upon tribal memories.  They were smothered by poisoned fumes and thrown  back by a volcano in full eruption."  Once again, that's an appropriate historic tool to use  to date oral history, isn't it?  MR. GRANT:  What is?  MR. WILLMS:  Q   A volcanic eruption?  A  Q  A 17306  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 A   I am sorry, I thought you were going to go on and ask  2 a question about the sea otters.  3 MR. WILLMS:  No, this is the third -- you answered sea otters.  4 I think you said nobody knows, who knows, didn't you?  5 THE COURT:  Was there something else you wanted to say about  6 sea-otter hunting in this context?  7 THE WITNESS:  What are you saying that the sea-otter hunting in  8 this adaawk dates?  You are saying that because they  9 are hunting sea otter in the adaawk that therefore it  10 is after the Russian influence?  Is that what your  11 question was?  12 MR. WILLMS:  13 Q   No.  I just read you Dr. Barbeau's quote and asked you  14 whether or not reference to sea-otter hunting would be  15 a method -- an appropriate method of dating the adaawk  16 and I thought you said nobody was there before so how  17 can you tell or something like that?  18 A   But in connection with this adaawk, this is the  19 Niislaganoos, that's the Chiefs-Hill adaawk and they  20 fight over --  21 THE COURT:  I am sorry, madam reporter will need a spelling for  22 that.  23 THE WITNESS:  I am sorry, N-i-i-s-1-a-g-a-n-o-o-s.  They fight  24 over sea otter -- access to the sea-otter territories  25 but sea otter are an aspect of the culture on the  26 coast.  It's a part of their culture.  That's what  27 they do, they hunt sea otter, so to have them fighting  28 over a sea-otter location does not necessarily  29 indicate that there is now an intensive sea-otter  30 hunting, they fought over -- they fought over  31 resources right through the entire time period,  32 especially when the animals seemed to have periods  33 when there was scarcity.  34 MR. WILLMS:  35 Q   Like after intensive sea-otter hunting, there was  36 scarcity then, wasn't there?  37 A   There were no sea otter after the fur trade hit to  38 speak of.  39 Q   Now, can we go back to the volcano now?  And Dr.  40 Barbeau has referred to a volcanic eruption, and my  41 question to you is, it is an appropriate tool to date  42 an oral history to use a volcanic eruption.  That's  43 appropriate to date an adaawk?  44 A   If they describe a volcano and there are unequivocal  45 dates for the volcano that are conservative and  46 generally agreed upon, yes; however, with volcanoes  47 there are also previous eruptions that are dated. 17307  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 MR. WILLMS:  Now, are you aware that there has been evidence  2 given in this case that Tseax eruption on the Nass  3 River took place in 1770?  4 MR. GRANT:  Well, I asked my friend to be more precise?  He made  5 one reference and I believe it was something that he  6 himself was questioned.  I don't know if that evidence  7 has been given.  8 MR. WILLMS:  9 Q   It is in the record of Sybill Haussleur which is  10 Exhibit 802 at page 32.  That's where it is from, to  11 help my friend, and it's dated at 1770 in that report.  12 Were you aware of that?  13 A   Not until yesterday.  I understand she is a botanist.  14 The date that I quoted is 250 plus or minus 130 is  15 from Clague who is a well respected geologist.  16 THE COURT:  What's the reference to Sybill Haussleur?  17 MR. WILLMS:  18 Q   Exhibit 802 at page 32.  19 A  And Clague also refers to an eruption, and I don't  20 have the exact date in my head, but the same volcano  21 600 years — around 600 B.P.  22 THE COURT:  The reference was 250 plus or minus —  23 THE WITNESS:  130.  24 THE COURT:  250 plus or minus 130, from 1950?  25 THE WITNESS:  No, from — I am not sure when he published.  I  26 think it was in the '80s.  And Gottesfeld, in his  27 publication on the Skeena River, has outlined the fact  28 that he found a tree growing on the lava bed and,  29 according to his analysis of the tree ring, he places  30 the volcano at the upper reaches of that date around  31 300 but -- but I didn't rely on that because I used  32 the more conservative date.  33 THE COURT:  Thank you.  34 MR. WILLMS:  35 Q   You have given evidence in court about dating an  36 adaawk by using the volcanic eruption, haven't you?  37 And I am showing you an extract from your evidence in  38 the Regina vs. Matthews case, November 4, 1985, and  39 maybe just to refresh your memory, you will see Mr.  40 Grant is examining you at the bottom of page 33.  At  41 the bottom of page 33 at line 39 the question:  42  43 "Q  In your work with the adaawk, have you  44 correlated those independent data to determine  45 a time period in which certain adaawk have  46 occurred?  47 A  Yes, where the information is available. 1730?  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q  Can you give us an example of that?  2 A Well, the Nisga have an adaawk about the  3 volcano eruption at Canyon City -- around  4 Canyon City and Aiyansh and, when that was  5 originally recorded, the people recording it  6 were sceptical as to the dating of it and  7 subsequent carbon dating has shown that the  8 account of the people was accurate in terms of  9 time.  That particular adaawk is one that's  10 more easy for non-Indians to handle because it  11 describes an event that everybody's familiar  12 with and you can drive up there and see the  13 lava flow and it's an extremely specific  14 account in terms of what actually happened.  It  15 talks about the lake that was there prior to  16 the lava flow, and it talks about the fact that  17 the lake was filled in; it talks about the  18 river being moved closer to the mountains and  19 it even talks about a stream that was poisioned  20 by, presumably, underground gases and several  21 people were killed from drinking the water.  22 So, the accounts can be extremely specific,  23 especially the recent events that are being  24 described and this kind of adaawk we can  25 corroborate with scientific information.  The  26 date on it is two hundred and fifty years plus  27 or minus a hundred and thirty and the  28 informant, who spoke to Barbeau and Beynon,  29 was -- said that it was two hundred and --  30 approximately two hundred and fifty years prior  31 to 1920.  32 Q  This is the volcano --  33 A  The volcano eruption -- the most recent one on  34 the Nass.  There are others."  35  36 So there -- by the way, do you remember which adaawk  37 that was that you dated in which --  38 A   It's -- there are a number of -- there are about five  39 or six, I think, adaawk that describe the volcano  40 eruption.  I think they are all either in the Wolf or  41 in the Eagle counts if I am not mistaken.  42 Q   And those volcano eruption adaawks you date to 250  43 years ago plus or minus 130?  44 A   The events in the adaawk that describe the volcanic  45 eruption I date -- I don't always -- I don't date the  46 entire adaawk because, as I said, the adaawk can deal  47 with the events from beginning of time to the first 17309  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 gun all in one adaawk, but the actual volcanic  2 eruption as they describe it, I date at that time,  3 yes.  4 MR. WILLMS:  Now, oh, 1051-8, my lord.  5 THE COURT:  Yes.  6  7 (EXHIBIT 1051-8 - EXCERPT FROM TRANSCRIPT R. VS.  8 MATTHEWS DATED NOV. 4, 1985)  9  10 THE WITNESS:  It is interesting because the Nishga had a  11 memorial for this, the people killed by the volcano,  12 and there was a Sutherland Brown had actually written  13 an article on the volcanic eruption and he was  14 interviewed for an article in the paper and he said  15 that the volcano couldn't possibly have killed that  16 many people because the lava flow would have been  17 extremely slow.  Well, as it turns out, if you read  18 the adaawk, the people were killed -- they describe an  19 extremely slow lava flow, but the people were killed  20 by the toxic fumes that preceded it.  And --  21 MR. WILLMS:  22 Q   Now, what Dr. Barbeau has done here in these passages  23 that I have read to you is, he's taken geological  24 evidence that he had at the time about the glacier,  25 he's taken volcanic evidence that he had at the time  26 about the volcano at the Nass, he's also taken the  27 knowledge of intensive sea-otter hunting that he had  28 at the time, putting them all together to try to date  29 this adaawk and these series of adaawks.  That's what  30 he is doing, correct?  31 A   That's what he is trying to do.  32 Q   All right.  And, in doing that, he, in looking at that  33 evidence, dates these adaawks at not much more than  34 200 years?  35 A   But the —  36 Q   First, do you agree with that first?  Do you agree  37 that Dr. Barbeau has taken these dates and dated these  38 adaawks somewhere say 200 to 400 years ago?  That's  39 what he's done.  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   What historic evidence are you aware of that would  42 change that date, that would show that Dr. Barbeau was  43 wrong?  44 A  Well, he's put three events together that take place  45 over a long time span.  46 Q   Why do you say that they take place over a long time  47 span?  What independent verification do you rely on to 17310  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 say that they take place over a long time span?  2 A  Well, it is the internal -- it doesn't work  3 internally.  When the people migrate under the  4 glacier, Metlakatla is inhabited by one group of  5 people, a small group of people at Metlakatla Pass.  6 When -- then they come down under the glacier, they  7 live among the Tlingit, who knows how long they live  8 there, until they are speaking Tlingit by the time  9 they join the Tsimshian.  Presumably they were  10 speaking Tsitsau (phonetic) when they left the  11 Laxwiiuip.  The sea-otter events take place during  12 their time there.  When adaawk goes through its  13 history, they are only talking about the very  14 important, outstanding events in their history, they  15 are not talking about everything that's happened to  16 them.  The first outstanding event was that they were  17 forced to migrate from Laxwiiyip.  The second  18 outstanding event was that they were forced to leave  19 the Tlingit.  Then they migrate through Metlakatla,  20 which is a small village, where the archaeology from  21 Metlakatla Pass has been very thorough.  It was an  22 intense occupation in Metlakatla Pass as far back as  23 2,500 years ago.  24 Q   Okay, what's that archaeology?  25 A   Can I just finish please?  26 Q   No.  I'd like to know what that archaeology is and  27 whether you relied on it in writing your report?  28 A   It is the Prince Rupert Harbour Archaeology.  I relied  29 on it in the sense that he gave me a sense of the  30 numerical time depth.  They then go -- some of them  31 that come down join the Tsimshian.  The other group  32 that come around, they go to Metlakatla Pass, they try  33 to stay there.  There is not enough resources, there  34 is one small village there, and they move to the Nass  35 and they establish themselves there, and that is their  36 home, and they were there for a long time.  And you  37 can -- that is -- the Nishga will tell you that.  38 There is a large group of Wolf and Wolf-Eagle people  39 that -- that is their home.  The next major historical  40 event that happens to them in terms of where they live  41 is the fact that the volcano erupts and they have to  42 move to another place and, when they -- if an adaawk  43 is told in full, they will cover all of those events  44 just as it has in Men of Mediik and Wars of Mediik.  45 When somebody is giving a truncated, compressed  46 account of the history of where they have lived and  47 the peoples among whom they have lived and their 17311  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 migrations, it may appear that they all took place at  2 the same time, but there are many, many indications  3 that is not the case, and that is what three years  4 that I spent working with the adaawk has led me to  5 believe.  6 Q   And you truly believe that?  7 A   That is my conclusions from working with the adaawk.  8 Q   Now, if Dr. Barbeau's dating is correct, then Temlaxam  9 was founded less than 200 years ago.  If his dating is  10 correct, Temlaxam was founded less than 200 years ago?  11 A  Well, are you asking me to plug Dr. Barbeau's opinions  12 into mine now?  Is that what you are asking me to do?  13 Q   I am asking you as an expert to assume that Dr.  14 Barbeau's dating of the passage under the glacier is  15 correct, and then ask you if that assumption -- if you  16 can assume that, that would mean that Temlaxam would  17 be less than 200 years old?  18 A  When I first started working with the adaawk, I didn't  19 come with the preconception that I could correlate the  20 adaawk in such a way as to create a meaningful  21 chronology.  That was my goal, but I was never -- I  22 had to do the process in order to become convinced  23 that it was possible.  If you have a number of events  24 that are mythology in the negative sense of the term  25 and you try to correlate them, you can't do it.  The  26 flood, for example, the flood is -- I don't know what  27 the flood is.  It's used in adaawk to indicate great  28 time depth.  It's used consistently in terms of  29 original places long ago and so on.  The flood does  30 not work chronologically.  There are events after  31 years of putting the information together covering  32 every single related house, every single house in the  33 Nishga, the Tsiamshian and the Gitksan, and all of the  34 adaawk -- there are very strong -- the possibility of  35 putting them together in a chronological order became  36 increasingly strong.  If it had not been possible, I  37 would have had to stop.  You can't make meaning out of  38 something that has no meaning.  39 Q   Just getting back to the question that I asked,  40 assuming that Dr. Barbeau's dating of the passage  41 under the glacier of 200 to 400 years ago is correct,  42 and linking it to the volcano, that would mean  43 Temlaxam would be less than 200 years ago?  44 A  And a whole bunch of other things wouldn't make sense.  45 In other words, my answer was that that information,  46 if all of the information was like that, it wouldn't  47 be possible to make a chronology. 17312  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   So if Dr. Barbeau is right, then your opinion would  2 have to be wrong?  3 A  Well, if Barbeau had done what I had done, then I feel  4 comfortable or if Duff had continued his work, I think  5 that the conclusions would have been very close but  6 Barbeau was not doing that.  He didn't spend a lot of  7 time analysing and interweaving the information.  8 Q   He spent years on this, didn't he?  9 A  Well, he was --  10 MR. WILLMS:  Years and years.  Didn't Dr. Barbeau —  11 MR. GRANT:  Just let her answer.  12 MR. WILLMS:  13 Q   -- spend from the 1920s to the 1950s, almost into the  14 1960s, working with these adaawks?  15 A   Not analysing them, no.  He collected them, he rewrote  16 them for publication, he spent a lot of time rewriting  17 them for publication, he popularized them, and he was  18 doing other things.  He is not simply a north coast  19 expert.  He is very interested in music and other  20 folklore.  21 Q   Who wrote The Downfall of Temlaxam?  22 A   He did.  And that's an example of the kind of thing he  23 was doing.  24 Q   And you rely on that, don't you?  25 A   Rely on it?  26 Q   The Downfall of Temlaxam as written by Dr. Barbeau?  27 A   It was one of the first things that I read of his.  I  28 haven't relied on it in writing my opinion.  29 MR. WILLMS:  All right.  Well, maybe let's move to — does your  30 lordship want to break at eleven?  31 THE COURT:  Yes, I think we should.  Is it more convenient to do  32 it now?  33 MR. WILLMS:  Yes.  I have a little point that might take longer  34 than that.  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 17313  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned for a  2 brief recess.  3  4  5  6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:00 a.m.)  7  8  9  10 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  11 a true and accurate transcript of the  12 proceedings herein, transcribed to the  13 best of my skill and ability.  14  15  16  17  18  19 TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  20 United Reporting Service Ltd.  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 17314  Proceedings  Cross-exam by Mr.  Willms  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  2  3 MR. GRANT:  Yes, my lord.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant.  5 MR. GRANT:  I have two preliminary matters to raise.  One is  6 that I did get -- somehow the courier must have  7 appreciated the gravity of the situation and got  8 things here in a day, and I had an opportunity last  9 night to review that file so I have the documents in a  10 position to -- which I would want to say what they are  11 to you and provide them to your lordship in accordance  12 with your ruling a few days ago.  13 THE COURT:  Yes.  14 MR. GRANT:  The second point is that my friend -- as you know,  15 I'm not intending to be here for next week.  Barbara  16 Lane, I believe, is next week and Mr. Rush is leading  17 her evidence.  My friend had raised a problem relating  18 to the Chilton report and wondered when that could be  19 dealt with, and it was a question of a draft.  Chilton  20 was the climatologist, you may recall.  21 THE COURT:  I don't know what the issue is about the Chilton  22 report.  At least, I don't recall the issue.  23 MR. GRANT:  It's been raised through correspondence.  The issue  24 with the Chilton report is relatively simple.  Chilton  25 did a draft report and a final report.  He referred to  26 the draft in his evidence.  My friend asked for  27 disclosure.  I obtained the draft.  The draft had two  28 parts.  One part dealt with the food drawing, one part  29 dealt with snow pack which was -- had nothing do with  30 his final report.  It has no bearing.  Two different  31 reports.  I excluded the snow pack.  My friends say I  32 should have given it to them and so we're at a bit of  33 a -- not ad idem and I --  34 THE COURT:  Have you given him the other part of the report?  35 MR. GRANT:  The draft on the food drawing?  3 6 THE COURT:  Food drawing.  37 MR. GRANT:  Oh, yes.  Yes.  You've already directed that.  I  38 think that's clear.  He's entitled to that.  I think  39 there also was an introduction.  It may have a line  40 that says something about the snow pack, but I gave  41 him the introduction because it dealt with the second  42 part as well.  It's just the section on snow pack I  43 haven't given him.  Which, of course, we've lead no  44 evidence on.  That's the second point.  45 And, thirdly, I have canvassed with my friends, I  46 didn't speak with Mr. Willms, but I canvassed with the  47 witness and myself that we're certainly prepared to 17315  Proceedings  Cross-exam by Mr.  Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  COURT:  GRANT:  THE COURT  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  sit late tonight if that assists where we can, and  we're prepared to shorten the lunch hour to give my  friend some time.  I can't say that I would not have  any re-direct, but --  Yeah.  So I note with the addition of last night's time and  this morning's time my friend by noon today will be  pretty close to having had a full court day, but I  don't know how he's doing.  He indicated that one day  is what he needed.  I don't know how he's doing.  He  may be behind, he may be ahead.  I'm prepared to do  that if that would assist in terms of tomorrow.  I may  say if we have to go into tomorrow there is no  difficulty with counsel or the witness.  I'm just  saying it may --  Well, I don't mind sitting late tonight.  On the  other hand, I don't think we ought to sit under  circumstances where counsel feel pressed or the  witness abused, and if we have -- it might be better  to come back tomorrow to finish even if we don't have  a full day, or even half a day, but I think we have to  decide that later today when we have a better sense of  how much time is going to be required.  All right.  What do you want to do with these  reports?  Do you want to give them to me now and I'll  look at them this evening if I can?  WILLMS:  Certainly.  And on Chilton, my lord, the point on  Chilton, and this has come up with a number of  different witnesses.  We -- for example, we got all of  Ms. Haeussler's draft reports, even the berry  chemistry part that was not lead into evidence.  It's  my position in respect of the draft the draft is the  draft.  It's just as relevant as to what is taken out  to the credibility of the witness as it is what's been  left in.  And that's my only submission on that, that  my friend can't go through drafts and pull out things  just because it didn't end up in the final, so.  Both subjects were covered in one report originally,  were they?  There was two entirely different projects which  counsel instructed Mr. Chilton to deal with.  One was  a question of snow pack analysis.  Yes.  And another was a food drawing. And what he did was  after reviewing the first draft counsel made decisions  as to whether -- that it wasn't necessary to deal with  snow pack at all.  It wasn't -- wasn't -- didn't have  COURT:  GRANT:  COURT:  GRANT: 17316  Proceedings  Cross-exam by Mr.  Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  a bearing on the case.  And so -- but what he did --  Mr. Chilton did his own computer typing, and what he  did was when he sent the report it would have two  parts, but it's not interlined editing in any way.  What it is is one part deals with one item which was  totally excluded from evidence.  THE COURT:  Did counsel get the report that included the snow  pack conclusions?  Did —  I mean, the report that was furnished to counsel  before trial included the portion on snow pack, did  it?  No.  It didn't?  No.  The report that was given to the counsel --  this is a way earlier draft.  The report delivered in  1987 or late 1986 to counsel was a report on food  drawing.  And that was the expert report upon which  Chilton was called.  And Chilton did certain maps  relating to snow pack and maps relating to food  drawing, and when my friends asked to look at the  underlying maps relating to index food drawing maps it  was made clear to him at that time the other maps were  not relevant.  It's not that there's any connection  between the two, if you understand me.  That is one's  on top of the mountains and one's in the valley.  COURT:  The end —  GRANT:  That's right.  He could have done them in two  separate reports.  That's how I'm dealing with them, I  think it will become clear.  COURT:  Well —  WILLMS:  I've got -- what we've got, my lord, and there is  the beginning, the climatology and mapping  methodology.  Apparently Mr. Chilton thought they were  related.  He talks about them in the introduction.  Then we've got a blank for I don't know how many pages  until we pick up Part B.   And it's my submission that  if that's the form counsel got the draft and then the  draft was changed before we got the final that we're  entitled to see the draft to see what was taken out  and investigate why.  MR. GRANT:  This is exactly what I said.  It's the introduction.  It has two sentences, one about food drawing and the  other snow pack.  COURT:  All right.  GRANT:  And I didn't take out the sentence to try to -- I  just -- I will provide you with that -- that at the  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR. 17317  Proceedings  Cross-exam by Mr.  Willms  1 break.  I thought I had it in my file.  2 THE COURT:  Yes.  3 MR. GRANT:  But I can provide you with the material out of my  4 file from Ms. Marsden.  And some of this has been  5 disclosed already, and I'm not taking objection to it.  6 The first is a March 27th, 1986 interview -- five, six  7 pages, my lord -- which I have found in my files  8 independently.  And it's the only written interview  9 that I located.  And I've already delivered it to my  10 friends.  I'm not stating that that -- I'm not certain  11 if you want to deal with it in the sense of what's in  12 the file that came from her, but in light of that I  13 wanted to give it to you.  I'm not objecting to the  14 disclosure of that.  15 THE COURT:  It may help me to understand.  16 MR. GRANT:  It may help you to understand.  That has been  17 disclosed.  18 MR. WILLMS:  Yes, on June 7th.  I'm grateful my friend disclosed  19 that on June 7th.  20 MR. GRANT:  I'm glad that Mr. Willms is grateful.  I take  21 gratitude whenever I can get it.  The Barbeau Beynon  22 file BF 63.4, now this has been disclosed.  It has  23 handwriting on it which is not, to my knowledge, Ms.  24 Marsden's.  In fact I think it may have even been put  25 in evidence in Ms. Ryan's cross, but it's an example  26 out of the Barbeau Beynon file of the kind of material  27 that Ms. Marsden would give to us.  And this is from a  28 printout from the microfilm which was disclosed to my  29 friends two years -- two years plus ago.  Well before  30 the start of the trial.  31 Number three, May 1986, and it's punched so the  32 date is hard to see.  Interview with Olive Ryan by  33 Susan Marsden re Hanamuux Fishing Sites and Guxsan  34 Fishing Sites.  This document, my lord, is one in  35 which Ms. Marsden because of her knowledge of the  36 words assisted counsel and attended on behalf of  37 counsel to get some names and places of fishing sites.  38 It was done at the direction of counsel, and I say  39 it's part of counsel's privilege.  It was part of what  40 I utilized in the preparation of Ms. Ryan.  41 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Mr. Grant.  This is all too much of a  42 flood of —  43 MR. GRANT:  I'm sorry, my lord.  44 THE COURT:  This document I've just been handed, Barbeau Beynon  45 file reference BF 63.7, what is this again?  46 MR. GRANT:  That is a printout of the microfilm of Barbeau  47 Beynon files.  Now, if you consider matters in three 1731?  Proceedings  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 catagories for these purposes that Ms. Marsden's  2 referred to there's the Barbeau Beynon typed adaawks  3 which have been put into evidence.  There are the  4 Barbeau Beynon microfilm with typescript.  You  5 remember the Spookw one where you had the words that  6 were so hard to read.  That's from that group of  7 files.  And then there's the Duff files in which Duff  8 analyzes Barbeau and Beynon.  Now --  9 THE COURT:  Well, if this is a public document —  10 MR. GRANT:  That's been disclosed.  But what I'm saying is  11 that's the kind of document that Ms. Marsden provided  12 to counsel.  It's in -- that document is in the  13 Hanamuux file.  That's what she assisted to do is to  14 pull out from public documents, which have all been  15 disclosed, she ordered them, she organized them for  16 counsel, and the organization of that is the fact that  17 it's in that file.  That's what I was trying to raise  18 with you.  My friends, of course, not only are they  19 entitled to it, I'm sure they have it, but it's  20 which -- are they entitled to which adaawk are in  21 which files, and in that case which parts of Barbeau  22 Beynon are which files.  That's where I say they are  23 delving very deeply into the file content.  So I -- of  24 course, that document, as I say, has been disclosed,  25 but that's the kind of thing that Ms. Marsden assisted  26 counsel with.  I'm sorry, Mr. Grant.  I must be obtuse today.  I'm sorry, my lord.  You say this is a public document yet you say that  30 what she did was she organized it.  Are you saying  31 that this is public information, but reorganized by  32 her?  For example, is this all -- are these Barbeau's  33 words.  34 MR. GRANT:  That's all Barbeau.  That's not a typescript of Ms.  35 Marsden.  Okay.  The organization is that I go to Ms.  36 Marsden and I say I am leading the evidence of Gwaans.  37 I need information relating to X, Y and Z.  You are  38 knowledgeable about the Barbeau files about the  39 adaawk.  Can you assist me to locate information that  40 would be relevant to what I'm talking about with her.  41 And what she would do is take out, in this case that  42 one extract from the file, she would take it out and  43 say this is relevant to what you're talking about,  44 but —  45 THE COURT:  This typing looks like 1920 typing.  46 MR. GRANT:  If you look at —  47 THE COURT:  Is it?  2 7 THE COURT  2 8 MR. GRANT  2 9    THE COURT 17319  Proceedings  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  MR.  GRANT  2  3  THE  COURT  4  5  6  7  8  MR.  GRANT  9  10  THE  COURT  11  MR.  GRANT  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  GRANT  24  25  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  GRANT  28  29  30  31  32  THE  COURT  33  MR.  GRANT  34  35  36  THE  COURT  37  MR.  GRANT  38  39  40  41  42  43  MR.  WILLM  44  45  46  47  MR.  GRANT  :  That's right.  If you look at tab 19 of the -- of  Exhibit 1042, the Spookw, you'll find similar typing.  :  What I'm having trouble with is why in view of the  fact that it is public information it wouldn't be  given to your friends if they're curious about it in  the sense of what is there about this that is  confidential or which would --  : Which file it came out of -- which file of mine it  came out of, because what Ms. Marsden --  :  Does that show?  :  It doesn't show.  Those documents have been  disclosed, but what my friends in their pursuit with  Ms. Marsden are saying, and what I was trying to raise  with you, was that they're saying well, which file --  I mean, she put material to me and to other counsel as  to which chief and which witness and which file they  would go to on our advice.  She advised us in that  sense.  There's nothing except my note which is at the  top, my handwritten note to file and that particular  witness file, indicating anything else.  And the  document itself has been disclosed.  :  I'm just not able to grasp what the problem is.  :  Well, that's what I was endeavoring to raise with  you the other day.  Maybe I'll go to the last document  and we can come back to that.  :  All right.  Thank you.  :  The one I just gave you that Madam Registrar just  handed to you above that is an interview with Ms. Ryan  by Ms. Marsden in 1986 relating to fishing sites, and  that interview was done on behalf of counsel and on  counsel's instruction.  :  This is Olive Ryan?  : Olive Ryan. Because of the ability of Ms. Marsden  to know and to be able to hear the names, and assist  in the writing of those names for counsel.  :  Yes.  :  Unlike the first interview you have, which I take no  objection to, because it's relevant to the opinions of  this witness and deals with the same subject matter,  that first interview has been disclosed and my friend  is grateful for, this interview has not been  disclosed.  3:  I thought my friend was still tendering the fishing  sites map and the names and all of that of Ms.  Marsden, and then he said this doesn't have anything  to do with anything in her opinion.  :  In her opinion report.  I'm not -- I am not -- I'm 17320  Proceedings  Cross-exam by Mr.  Willms  1  2  3  THE  COURT  4  5  MR.  GRANT  6  THE  COURT  7  MR.  GRANT  8  9  10  THE  COURT  11  MR.  GRANT  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  GRANT  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  GRANT  23  THE  COURT  24  25  MR.  GRANT  26  THE  COURT  27  28  MR.  GRANT  29  THE  COURT  30  MR.  GRANT  31  32  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  GRANT  35  36  THE  COURT  37  MR.  GRANT  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  GRANT  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  not as concerned about this except that it was done to  assist counsel in the preparation of the witness.  This doesn't even say that it's an interview with  Olive Ryan.  It should on the first page, my lord.  I don't think so.  Maybe you're looking at something -- if I could just  take a look.  Oh, my lord, this is -- this is  something that's edited out of your binder.  I just had it sitting there.  I just picked it up.  I think -- is that there?  This is it here.  My lord, you took me aback.  I thought I had given  you something that I didn't even want you to see, but  you've seen this for the last four days.  The final document is the listing of names in this  house which was done at an early stage for counsel to  assist us to understand who the present name holders  and past name holders were, and it's work we  specifically requested of Ms. Marsden to assist us.  Can I have a paper clip for this?  I'm sorry, my lord, some of those aren't stapled.  That's fine.  I'll put my own note on it so I know  what it is.  Yes.  Now --  And this collection of names was prepared by Mrs.  Marsden for the purpose of assisting counsel, you say?  Yes, my lord.  All right.  A lot of that information I haven't made any  comparison, but will be demonstrated on the  genealogies that have now been exhibited.  All right.  But it again was -- the final thing is if you look  at Exhibit 1043.  Do I have to?  It's the black binder of the ancient fireweed.  Yes.  As you've already heard, this was the only planned  binder of this nature that Ms. Marsden produced, but  if you look at that chart in which she's included  summaries of the adaawk -- of course, we are dealing,  as you know, with over 400 adaawk.  There weren't  summaries for anywhere near all of them like these,  but this binder -- the contents of this binder would  be -- were prepared for counsel and the extent of the  summary for Olive Ryan's evidence.  And this also 17321  Proceedings  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 would apply to Mary Johnson and Stanley Williams,  2 because -- in that she did the summary of -- of these  3 adaawk.  In other words, what I've already gone  4 through with your lordship.  So the purposes of your  5 dealing with the Hanamuux file and the Stanley  6 Williams and the Mary Johnson, this material was  7 prepared as an aid for counsel.  Of course, it's been  8 disclosed.  There are some others, and that's  9 something that will entail my personal attendance at  10 my office to -- from my recollection this would be the  11 majority of where there are summaries of the adaawk.  12 The second part of all of these, of course, has all  13 been disclosed.  They're all in the public record.  In  14 fact my friends have demonstrated they have them when  15 they tendered their exhibits this morning from their  16 own sources, but the summary is something Ms. Marsden  17 prepared to assist us.  That was prepared to  18 understand the adaawk.  19 THE COURT:  I can't understand, that's why I'm having trouble.  20 I can't grasp the trouble, because this looks to me  21 like Barbeau's work.  22 MR. GRANT  2 3 THE COURT  2 4    MR. GRANT  That is Barbeau's work that you have there.  Why is there a problem?  It isn't.  It's been disclosed.  Do they have a  25 right to know which files they're in, that's the first  26 question.  2 7 THE COURT  2 8 MR. GRANT  2 9    THE COURT  Well, all it says on it is a Barbeau Beynon file.  No.  No.  Which of counsel's files.  I don't see where that's disclosed anywhere.  I  30 don't know how from reading this they would know which  31 file it's disclosed in.  Maybe there's a code.  32 MR. GRANT:  No, my lord.  If — okay.  If the ruling — just a  33 moment.  34 THE COURT:  What I'm concerned about is you have led your  35 friends to think there's something that they should  36 see when --  37 MR. WILLMS:  I can help my friend.  38 THE COURT:  — There is no need.  39 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, I can help my friend.  I am not interested  40 in knowing that a clear copy of an adaawk was given to  41 Mr. Grant and he put it in a file.  If there is a memo  42 from Ms. Marsden that says here is the adaawk of Olive  43 Ryan's house I'd like that.  4 4 THE COURT:  Yeah.  45 MR. WILLMS:  But if it's just handed and he throws it in I don't  46 care about that.  47 THE COURT:  I think that typing looks like typical Barbeau 17322  Proceedings  Cross-exam by Mr.  Willms  1  2  MR.  GRANT  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  GRANT  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  THE  COURT  12  13  14  MR.  GRANT  15  16  17  THE  COURT  18  19  MR.  GRANT  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  GRANT  22  23  THE  COURT  24  MR.  GRANT  25  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  GRANT  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  GRANT  30  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  GRANT  33  34  35  THE  COURT  36  37  MR.  GRANT  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  GRANT  40  41  42  43  MR.  WILLM  44  45  46  47  typing.  This is Barbeau typing.  Yeah.  Why is there a problem about it?  My friend has cleared up the issue, and I reviewed  my file.  What my friend is asking is is there a memo  from Ms. Marsden saying this is relating to the  evidence of Olive Ryan for X, Y and Z reason.  It  doesn't exist.  That isn't how counsel dealt with Ms.  Marsden who at that time was proximal to counsel where  she was living and working.  I hope she didn't find that uncomfortable.  Mr.  Grant, I'm not going to require that to be disclosed.  That's public information.  Fine.  The other matter is that if there are other  of these summaries such that you find in tab 1, that's  the only other matter.  Well, I don't have them before me.  I can't deal  with them.  Yes.  Where are they that I can --  I'm sorry, my lord.  They're in the ancient  fireweed.  No, but that's been produced in evidence, hasn't it?  Yes, but what I'm saying is that there may be  summaries of other adaawk other than these ones.  Yes.  And we --  You mean in your file at home?  In the filing cabinet room at home, my lord.  This  is not a small task.  I don't know if there are any such things.  This is the kind of thing that would be found in  Olive's -- was found in Olive Ryan's Ancient Fireweed  of the Gisgaast.  No others.  If there are ones similar to that they surely must  be disclosed.  This is the summary.  I would think so.  That's why I say all they are is restatement of the  adaawk themself that's in the public record.  My  friends have it.  Why do they need reorganization of  these adaawk?  :  That's what I said when I objected to them being  marked, my lord.  I said why mark them.  Who needs  them.  And my friend disclosed them and thinks that  they mean something, so I guess I should assume that  they do too. 17323  Proceedings  Cross-exam by Mr.  Willms  1  THE  COURT:  2  3  MR.  GRANT:  4  THE  COURT:  5  MR.  GRANT:  6  MR.  WILLMS  7  THE  COURT:  8  9  MR.  WILLMS  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  THE  COURT:  18  19  MR.  GRANT:  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  THE  COURT:  44  45  46  MR.  MACAUL  47  THE  COURT:  Maybe I'm being very obtuse, or counsel are wasting  a lot of time.  I don't know which it is.  Well, maybe I can sit down.  It doesn't sound like your friend wants them.  That's fine.  :  Well, my lord, to this extent --  If he does I don't know why we're having all this  discussion.  :  I have to want them now they've been marked.  Some  of them have been marked.  If my friend hadn't marked  them -- I took a legal position and your lordship  didn't accept that, and they have been marked.  Well,  to that extent I'd like to see the rest of them.  They  are supposedly summaries of the adaawk.  I don't know  what my friend's problem is.  He marked some and  doesn't mark others.  Well, at the moment Mr. Grant doesn't even know if  any more exist.  I can advise the court there are some more.  I don't  know the quantity.  And I shudder at the task,  because -- but -- but basically what it's -- my lord,  what really concerns me is it's a paper chase.  These  were prepared -- these summaries if one looks, and my  friend has looked at this, I know he's looked at  these.  If you look at one part of this summary, and  you look at the original adaawk it's exactly the same  words except that she doesn't go through every single  child, for example, or every single species that  was -- suiter of the marriage of Gawa's daughter.  She  just says that there were lots of suiters and all were  rejected as unsuitable.  It's just a summary.  It's an  aid for counsel.  That's all it is.  And hopefully  with respect to these ones that are significant it's  an aid ultimately for the court.  So you're not going  to have at look at the 1920 typing all the time once  you see that, and it can be dealt with in argument.  But these are the ones that are relevant and produced  new to court.  There is nothing new in here.  She  doesn't say this is a good one or bad one.  I have no  problem with that if there is any commentary like that  by Ms. Marsden, but that's not how she worked.  That's  not how I received documents.  Mr. Macaulay, you've been commendably silent in all  of this.  Have you a position to advance in connection  to any of this?  AY:  No, my lord, I haven't.  No. 17324  Proceedings  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 MR. MACAULAY:  I'm not particularly interested in these  2 documents.  3 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, if I can help my friend — and I haven't  4 seen them.  He's described them as summaries.  I'm not  5 interested in the summaries.  6 THE COURT:  All right.  7 MR. WILLMS:  I am interested in interviews with Olive Ryan about  8 fishing sites and interviews with any other witnesses  9 by Ms. Marsden.  I am interested in those.  10 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, I think the comments or notes of  11 interviews clearly have to be disclosed.  And I don't  12 think, except the one I've reserved on here, or two,  13 I'm not going to go further at this time.  I am not  14 going to order the production of all these documents.  15 MR. GRANT:  All right.  Fine.  16 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  17  18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLMS CONTINUED:  19 Q   Ms. Marsden, in your evidence on June the 6th you  20 talked about attempting to date the period of  21 Temlaxham, and I'll just put the extract before you so  22 you can refresh your memory.  It's at page 17061 on  23 June the 6th.  And you said there in answer to my  24 friend's question about climate, you said:  25  26 "Well, in an attempt to date the period at  27 Temlaxham, since the dispersal seems to have  28 been caused by a change in climate from a  29 warmer climate to a colder climate, I looked  30 in the climatological reports from quite a  31 number of areas in British Columbia to see  32 if there was consistency in that field on  33 large eras of climate, and I wasn't able to  34 find enough consistency to rely on that."  35  36 Now, when you were reviewing that did you not  37 review a period called the Little Ice Age?  38 A   Yes.  There are a number of cold and warm fluctuations  39 over the 10,000 year period.  40 Q   There has been evidence given at this trial that the  41 Little Ice Age continued until 1850.  "That" — I'll  42 give it to my friend after I read it.  "Continued  43 until 1850.  That glaciers came down to 1200 metres  44 and some expanded for miles."  45 Now, first of all, were you aware of that  46 information before or while you were writing your  47 report? 17325  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 A   Yes.  The local people talk about it, too.  2 MR. WILLMS:  Yes.  And for my friend, my lord, it's Dr.  3 Gottesfeld, volume 145, page 9214 line 29 to page 9215  4 line five.  5 Q   Now, you'll agree with me, won't you, Ms. Marsden,  6 that the evidence of the Little Ice Age is that the  7 climate changed from a warmer climate to a colder  8 climate during the Little Ice Age?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And so perhaps the dispersal came about during the  11 Little Ice Age?  12 A  Well, there were earlier mini ice ages.  It's the same  13 as the -- the -- it's the same phenomenon.  It's the  14 same thing as the glaciers.  The glaciers advanced and  15 receeded during different time periods.  16 Q   And it could have been during those later time  17 periods, the older ones; correct?  18 MR. GRANT:  I don't understand.  19 A   The down -- you mean the dispersal could have been  20 taken place during?  Well, when I looked at the  21 climatological information it seemed to be  22 contradictory.  They had cold periods, they had cold  23 and wet, and cold and dry, and warm and wet, and warm  24 and dry.  And they -- the different scientists had it  25 different time periods.  There just wasn't enough  26 consistency to be able to say all over our British  27 Columbia, and our area hasn't been intensively  28 researched, all over British Columbia the climate did  29 this and did that even if it did because of the warm  30 and wet, and all of that stuff.  It doesn't indicate  31 that necessarily that there would have been a change  32 in the animal population which is why they had to  33 leave.  They had to leave because there wasn't  34 anything to eat.  So as a source of dating there were  35 internal problems in the climatological information  36 that I couldn't rely on it either way.  37 MR. WILLMS:  38 Q   But you noted, for example, in the Temlaxham adaawks  39 that the animal population dropped off; is that  40 correct?  41 A   There are certainly indications in the adaawk that  42 there was a climate change, yes.  43 Q   And that the animal population dropped off?  44 A   Not in every single adaawk, but they referred to --  45 they had to go elsewhere for sufficient food.  46 Q   All right.  And are you aware that during the Little  47 Ice Age that the Little Ice Age was hard on all 17326  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 animals?  2 A  As I said before, there were a number of Little Ice  3 Ages.  There was an earlier one --  4 Q   Well, just pick --  5 A   -- A few thousand years ago.  6 Q   I'm telling you that there -- there's evidence at this  7 trial that the Little Ice Age that extended to 1850  8 was hard on all animals.  Were you aware of that?  9 A   Yes.  10 MR. GRANT:  Well —  11 A   Yes, but I don't know what that means to you that I  12 was aware of that.  13 MR. WILLMS:  14 Q   Well, can you not take the Little Ice Age, which is  15 colder and presumably more conducive to snow, and the  16 Little Ice Age which was harder on animals and put  17 those two together to at least lead you to investigate  18 whether or not that helps date the Temlaxham?  19 A  As 1830, the dispersal of Temlaxham in 1830?  20 Q   Well, the Little Ice Age extended up to 1850.  21 A   1850.  It just —  22 Q   No help at all?  23 A   No.  24 Q   Okay.  25 A   People were doing very significant -- I mean, it's  26 just absurd, actually.  27 Q   All right.  But you dated Temlaxham based on a single  28 land slide dated by Dr. Gottesfeld?  29 A   No, I didn't date Temlaxham.  30 Q   I thought you dated the land slide as 3580, the  31 Madiik -- sorry.  32 A   There are a sequence of dates that parallel the  33 chronolgy that do have tail in that time period, and  34 one of them is the Madiik.  35 MR. WILLMS:  Perhaps exhibit — what is it, 1042, could be put  36 before Ms. Marsden.  Now, this is a black binder, my  37 lord.  That's a great help.  It's a thinner black  38 binder.  And at tab 13.  39 Q   If you could turn to tab 13, please, Ms. Marsden.  40 This was described by you, I think, as a summary of  41 your report.  42 A  Mine is empty.  It doesn't matter, I know what you're  43 referring to.  44 Q   13 is empty?  45 THE REGISTRAR:  Have you got 13?  4 6    THE COURT:  I have 13, yeah.  47 17327  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 MR. WILLMS:  2 Q   Well, I'll bring -- on the first page you've dated the  3 Madiik adaawk to 3580 plus or minus 150; correct?  4 A   I've put the dates in the parallel column, yes.  5 Q   And that's from Dr. Gottesfeld?  6 A   That is correct.  7 Q   And then on the next page when you are dating the  8 dispersal from Temlaxham at the bottom of the page  9 you've got 3500 leave Hagwilget?  10 A   That's correct.  11 Q   All right.  And that 3500 BP that you're using is  12 based on the Madiik adaawk from Dr. Gottesfeld, that  13 date?  14 A   No.  When I say leave Hagwilget I'm referring to the  15 archeological information of what was previously a  16 village site becomes a fishing site at that time.  17 MR. GRANT:  I think it's important to note for the record that  18 Mr. Willms only put to the witness on that dispersal  19 from Temlaxham one of three dates that are there, and  20 the other two dates are 3200 and 3500 and are a  21 different reference.  I think in fairness if he's  22 saying she's relying on one date he should at least  23 put the other two dates to her in that summary.  24 MR. WILLMS:  25 Q   Now, Ms. Marsden, as we've already been through this  26 morning, you know Dr. Barbeau tried to date the  27 passage under the glacier to between 200 and 400 years  28 ago?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   You also know that Dr. Gottesfeld obtained a carbon  31 date from the massive Carnaby slide of 250 BP.  You  32 know that?  33 A   No, I don't know that.  No, I don't know that.  34 Q   All right.  I'd ask you to assume that.  There's  35 evidence in this trial that Dr. Gottesfeld obtained a  36 carbon date from the massive Carnaby slide of 250 BP.  37 A  Well, that mountain is an extremely unstable mountain.  38 It's one of the oldest mountains in the area.  The  39 fact that one slide came down at that date and buried  40 other slides it's the same as the glaciers.  The  41 information is underneath the new information, so when  42 you look for old information what you get is the new  43 information that has destroyed the old information.  44 Q   You also know from yesterday that Dr. Matthews  45 hypothesized that the great snowfall was 1816.  46 MR. GRANT:  I object.  I object, my lord.  I object very  47 strongly at this point.  My friend here is putting a 1732?  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  proposal of Dr. Matthews before doing any research in  which he was requested to do research, and he  hypothesized in his proposal as to whether he should  be investigating the great snowfall.  It was a  proposal to Mr. Overstall.  He didn't hypothesize or  research anything.  He said do you want me to look at  this.  That's what that document referred to.  My  friend is now saying this is evidence put in as part  of the plaintiffs' case as the great snowfall.  I  think that's where my friend is stretching his bow way  too far, and it's not fair to the witness to put those  kinds of proposals of an expert before the expert has  even done any of the work here.  We are talking about  Dr. Matthews here.  He just said do you want me to  look at the great snowfall.  THE COURT:  Snow pack.  MR. GRANT: That's Chilton. I'm sure if we had Chilton's snow  pack that would be put to Ms. Marsden too. It would  be the year without a summer which he said well there  was some evidence in Ontario of a year without a  summer, do you want me to look at that. And that is  not a fair question. It's not an accurate statement  of what the evidence was.  Mr. Willms, you've heard what your friend said.  Could you frame your question in such a way as to  avoid that.  WILLMS:  Thank you, my lord.  My lord, one thing.  My friend  keeps popping up and throwing life rings to the  witness, and some of them sink and some of them float,  but I object to him popping up and doing that.  I  mean --  THE COURT:  Counsel don't pop up, Mr. Willms, counsel rises in  his place at counsel table.  MR. WILLMS:  Thank you, my lord.  MR. GRANT:  I am not throwing life rings, my lord, I'm objecting  to a fair question -- an unfair question.  THE COURT:  If counsel -- if counsel can't resolve this kind of  problem well then we have to ask the witness to leave  every time there's an objection.  That's the only  alternative.  And I hope there wouldn't be any of  that.  Let's proceed.  MR. WILLMS:  Q   You are aware that Dr. Matthews wrote to the tribal  council and said in his letter to the tribal council  that the great snowfall might be the summer that never  came.  You've seen that document?  A   You showed that to me yesterday.  I've seen that.  THE COURT  MR. 17329  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   Right.  And you know, or I told you this morning that  2 there has been evidence given at this trial that the  3 Little Ice Age extended to 1850?  4 A   Yes.  You've told me that, and I'm familiar with that.  5 Q   So if you assume that each one of those is true the  6 time line in the adaawk doesn't change, does it,  7 because you've got the passage under the glacier 200  8 to 300 years ago which precedes Madiik, 250 years ago  9 which precedes the great snowfall of the 1800's.  So  10 that those three chronological dates stay the same,  11 don't they?  12 A   I'm not trying to put a bunch of dates in sequence or  13 trying to cluster dates.  I'm trying to find dates  14 that will reflect events that are indicated to be of  15 great antiquity within the chronology that I've done.  16 If I'm looking for modern dates then I look for modern  17 dates.  For example, in my attempt to date some of the  18 events by the arrival of Duncan at Metlakatla some  19 events are -- events are placed in a different time  20 period in my chronology.  If I find a date for 1857  21 it's dealing with the very first event in a house it's  22 not likely to be of any use, especially if the date is  23 not definitive within the scientific pursuit itself.  24 Q   But the language in the adaawks, and you've indicated  25 this in your evidence, the language in the adaawks is  26 things like generations past, many years past, years  27 past, a period of time?  28 A   No, the language in the adaawk is not like that.  That  29 is -- those are indications of time depth from the  30 witness -- sorry.  From the person being  31 interviewed -- not interviewed.  The person giving the  32 evidence -- I'm sorry.  I'm in a case here.  Will  33 Robinson was asked to record Men of Madiik and Wars of  34 Madiik in English.  In the interaction between him and  35 Walter Wright he attempted to get a sense of time  36 depth as we understand it from Walter Wright.  Walter  37 Wright had in his own head the sense of time depth, as  38 all the chiefs do when they're telling their adaawk  39 and when they're hearing other chiefs tell their  40 adaawk.  We don't have that sense of time depth  41 because we don't know everybody else's adaawk.  We  42 don't read these things, or other people don't read  43 these things and say in the beginning of time our  44 original village long ago before the flood.  They use  45 those references and they understand those references.  46 What Will Robinson tried to do was translate that or  47 elicit from Walter Wright an understanding on his part 17330  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  31  32  Q  33  34  35  MR.  GRANT:  36  THE  COURT:  37  MR.  GRANT:  38  THE  COURT:  39  MR.  WILLMS  40  MR.  GRANT:  41  MR.  WILLMS  42  THE  COURT:  43  MR.  GRANT:  44  45  46  47  of the time depth between events in the long history  of that particular house which as he states, and as  Walter Wright had stated, begins as far back as the  memory of his house went to the first gun, and after  that.  You'll agree that dating the adaawks that don't have  historic references in them like guns, sailboats,  things like that is very problematic?  You keep referring to dating them as if I just take  one thing and look at the internal information and try  and find something out there that characterizes that.  I look at a chronology of events and try to sequence  dates parallel to it.  Okay.  Well, I just want to putting the chronology --  you've chronologized a series of adaawks.  You've got  them in a stack from references from the oldest to the  newest?  They don't work like that.  But -- well, let's take the events described in them.  Okay.  You have chronologized events taken out of adaawks;  correct?  That's correct.  And when you go back to the adaawk that the event is  taken out of it is problematic to date what's going on  in the adaawk unless there is some historic reference  in the adaawk like guns, like trading ships, something  like that?  It's certainly difficult to find dates that are  unequivocal in scientific fields.  The volcano is --  is one of the better ones.  Now, could Exhibit 1048 be put before the witness.  This is Raven Clan Outlaws, and I think part one of  Gwenhoot.  Just -- it's the red one, my lord.  Not by our --  Oh.  We have a black one.  :  Mine's red so that I can tell it apart.  I made another red one.  :  It's 1048, my lord.  Yes.  My lord, that's the one that has Raven Clan Outlaws  and Gwenhoot.  In a review of it I discovered that the  Gwenhoot that's in the second part, under a separate  tab, is not the second Gwenhoot of Alaska that I  intended to put in rather than Gwenhoot of Alaska in 17331  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  THE  COURT  5  MR.  GRANT  6  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  GRANT  11  12  13  MR.  WILLM  14  15  MR.  GRANT  16  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  GRANT  19  20  21  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  GRANT  24  25  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  GRANT  28  29  30  31  32  33  MR.  WILLM  34  35  36  37  38  THE  COURT  39  MR.  GRANT  40  THE  COURT  41  42  43  MR.  GRANT  44  45  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  GRANT  the red binder, so I will be asking to withdraw that  as part of the exhibit. That was the wrong section,  and you have what I had intended.  Just this one?  No.  That whole second part from there on those  are --  Tabs 20, 30, 40, 50?  That last half of it.  You want to take it out?  But we can take it out afterwards, but I'm advising  my friend of that now. He may want to refer to that,  I don't know.  :  Well, I will be referring to it, my lord.  I'll be  referring to it as if it was what it is, an exhibit.  It's not intended to be part of the plaintiffs'  exhibits.  That's what I'm saying.  You said it should be in the red book.  I'm saying that what's in the red book is what I  intended to file.  When I reviewed what was in the  second part there I did not intend to file that first  part.  All right.  Well —  My friend may want to tender it.  If my friend deals  with it as his exhibit that's fine, but I just don't  want it as plaintiff's exhibit.  You didn't mention it in your evidence in chief?  No, it wasn't referred.  That's why I overlooked it,  because I didn't refer to it in evidence.  That  particular one was -- it was on a review of that book  last night that I discovered I had reproduced that  first section which was wrong, which I hadn't intended  to.  :  I think, my friend's quite right.  He only referred  to two or three adaawks and none of the two or three  he actually referred to was in here, so I think he's  quite right.  He didn't -- he didn't refer to the  witness.  I'm not going to treat it as part of the exhibit.  Thank you, my lord.  As I said before, it's not a checker game we're  playing.  But that doesn't stop you, Mr. Willms, in  making whatever use you properly can make of it.  Yes.  Mr. Willms had put in the first part of some  of the others.  He may want to deal with that the same  way.  I've noted it's not part of Exhibit 1040 — 1048.  Thank you, my lord.  I seem to not have my 1040. 17332  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 I'll just look at the exhibit.  2 MR. WILLMS:  3 Q   Ms. Marsden, did you understand that when Dr. Barbeau  4 put the contents of these books together that he was  5 trying to, as best he could, put the adaawks in  6 chronological order so that the first adaawks in the  7 book would be the oldest ones, or the ones that  8 described events of greatest antiquity, and the last  9 adaawks would be the ones that described events that  10 were much more recent?  11 A   No.  12 Q   You didn't know that?  You didn't understand that?  13 A   I don't think he did, actually.  He did it differently  14 in different clans.  He seems to have grouped it --  15 well, he certainly tried to group them by shared  16 events.  You get sequences of -- sequences of titles  17 and adaawk that are dealing with an event that they  18 all share, and he may have -- you see in the case of  19 the fireweed, as I said, the fireweed seem to come  20 pre-packaged almost.  And in the fireweed it's quite  21 chronological, but not -- not totally.  Here I think  22 he's -- it's almost like he's gone coastal and then  23 inland in his ordering of the originals.  24 Q   Okay.  Now, the first document in this one is the  25 raising -- it's number 17, adaawk 17, and I'm in  26 Exhibit 1048.  Can you explain why you considered  27 adaawks one through 16 not relevant or useful to your  28 opinion?  29 A  Well, when I read all of the adaawk I grouped them by  30 events, and if the events didn't impinge either  31 explicitly or in -- as I went through the research on  32 events among the Gitksan I didn't do an analysis of  33 them.  After I had assured myself that -- that they  34 were localized events on the coast, and actually more  35 than -- well, I see I have the index here.  Hai'mas is  36 a fairly recent -- rose to power as a leading frog  37 chief in a fairly recent period on the coast, and his  38 hostilities with other groups didn't impinge upon the  39 Gitksan and so I didn't do the kind of indepth  40 analysis of them as I did with others.  41 Q   I'm showing you adaawk six.  It's in your index in  42 1048.  And you read adaawk six, "Hai'mas and His  43 Wudzen'aleq Band"?  44 MR. GRANT:  That's Barbeau's index.  45 MR. WILLMS:  46 Q   You read this adaawk?  47 A   Yes. 17333  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   And when you read this adaawk you noted, and this is  2 in the first paragraph, that this is the adaawk of the  3 naming of Hai'mas?  4 A   I'd like to reread this if you're going to get into  5 this in depth.  6 MR. WILLMS:  Perhaps you could.  I think if you read the first  7 paragraph you can answer the question.  Perhaps while  8 she's reading it it could be marked 1051-9, my lord.  9 THE COURT:  Yes.  You say it's number six in 1048?  10 MR. WILLMS:  If you look at the index, my lord, which is a  11 second page in at 1048.  12 THE COURT:  Yes.  13 MR. GRANT:  Number six is Hai'mas and His Wudzen'aleq Band.  14 That is the -- that index is a reproduction of the  15 index in the Raven Clan Outlaws, that's why it has  16 everything in -- not anything --  17  18 (EXHIBIT 1051-9:  Adaawk - Hai'mas and His  19 Wudzen'aleq Band)  20  21 MR. WILLMS:  22 Q   All right.  You agree with me that this adaawk starts  23 off with the description of how Hai'mas was named, Ms.  24 Marsden?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   Now, if you turn to the last page of the adaawk, the  27 last paragraph of page five, and I take it -- I don't  28 know whether this is the informant -- well, it's the  29 informant and the interpreter are the same, so I guess  30 it is the informant and the interpreter talking at the  31 same time.  32  33 "The career of Hai'mas cannot have happened  34 very long ago, although I (Barton) have not  35 seen these very warriors, who were in the  36 fight.  But the people who told me about him  37 had seen him.  It is not a very old story.  38 Hai'mas and his 'aleque remained in power  39 for many years before they got broken up."  40  41 Just stopping there.  Is that what you were  42 referring to a minute ago, that Hai'mas on -- the  43 stories of Hai'mas are not very old?  44 A   Yes.  He was almost like a renegade, actually.  He was  45 a warrior as opposed to a chiefly lineage.  The name  46 Hai'mas refers -- it may include more than one  47 warrior, but it refers to that period.  It doesn't 17334  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 occur in the older adaawk, and it is -- the  2 hostilities that he was involved in do appear to be --  3 in the chronology to be recent.  4 Q   And some of the clues from the adaawk itself that let  5 you know that it's not very old is the reference to  6 copper shields, for example, because they're not very  7 old?  8 MR. GRANT:  Where is that?  9 MR. WILLMS:  Well, there's a reference to copper shields on the  10 first page when they were naming --  11 THE COURT:  Copper shields is a person, I understand, is it?  12 MR. WILLMS:  Hai'mas.  13 MR. GRANT:  Hai'mas is the bark case of the copper shield.  14 MR. WILLMS:  Bark case made from copper shields.  15 Q   Ms. Marsden, when you see that copper shields  16 reference that's a clue to you that this is a historic  17 reference?  18 A   No.  The way I know that Hai'mas is recent is in  19 analyzing the -- the files about the settlements and  20 the growth of the villages it's stated that Hai'mas  21 was recent.  It's stated, and I -- I didn't use copper  22 shields as an antiquity or -- I don't -- I didn't use  23 copper shields as an indication of how to put things  24 in order.  25 Q   But you will agree with me that copper shields is an  26 indication in an adaawk that it's -- there's a  27 reference to the historic period when you see a  28 reference to copper shields?  29 A   The Indian informants, Beynon was one of them, say  30 that the copper, as they call it, is one of their most  31 ancient institutions.  Not institution.  Well,  32 actually it is an institution.  It stands for the  33 wealth of the feasts given by the chief of that name.  34 It's accumulative.  It has cumulative power.  It's  35 enormously significant.  And I know that there have  36 been attempts to prove that all copper shields  37 recorded, you know, collected in historic times are  38 from post contact copper, but the statements of the  39 people are that it's very ancient, and that their use  40 of copper is ancient.  41 Q   Well, putting the use of copper to one side, are you  42 telling me that when you saw a reference to copper  43 shield in an adaawk you didn't take from that that it  44 was a reference to something happening in historic  45 times?  46 A   It wasn't one -- I didn't use that type of indicator.  47 I didn't -- that's not part of my methodology. 17335  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  MR. GRANT  29  A  30  31  MR. WILLM  32  Q  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  You mean notwithstanding -- you knew that there is  scientific discussion that copper shields are  historic, you knew that; correct?  Yes.  All right.  Notwithstanding that you knew that there  is scientific discussion that copper shields are  historic you did not when you reviewed the adaawks  bring that knowledge to bear in assessing the date of  what was going on in the adaawk; is that correct?  In order to do the chronology I focused on the  evidence in the oral histories and the Duff files and  in what the people themselves said.  It was an  internal analysis.  The only example I suppose I could  say was an exception to that was the gun, because I  guess that's just something that nobody would argue  about.  Well, nobody argues about copper shields in the  scientific community, do they?  They do.  They do.  In the scientific community?  Yes.  I'm showing you an extract entitled "Origin of the  'Chief's Copper' or 'Tinneh'".  T-I-N-N-E-H.  "Anthropological Papers of the University of Alaska",  a discussion of copper.  Have you read this --  No, I haven't read this.  -- Assessment?  :  What's the date of it?  These are dealing with the coppers they're able to  analyze, if I'm not mistaken.  3:  It's 1964, my lord.  Perhaps you could turn to page 67, Ms. Marsden.  On  page 67 the author starting at the first full  paragraph says this:  "After talking about" --  It's numbered at the bottom of the pages.  Okay.  The first full paragraph.  "From these accounts and others we can  assume that while great quantities of sheet  copper were traded on the entire Northwest  Coast from 1774 to 1792 the trade was  already falling off near the end of that  period.  From the evidence at hand it seems  reasonable to assume also that none of these  early traders and explorers manufactured  chief's coppers that early and there is no 17336  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 record that any of them ever saw one.  One  2 may also be fairly safe in assuming that  3 none of the Indians contacted by these  4 traders had any tinnehs either until after  5 they had acquired commercial sheet copper.  6 If this is so, then there should not be a  7 single chief's copper in any of the museum  8 collections of the world today that is made  9 of native copper.  10  11 To test this theory a poll was made recently  12 of some 25 of the great museums of Europe  13 and America known to have Northwest Coast  14 collections.  Collectively these museums  15 were found to have a total of some 135  16 coppers, large and small, none of which were  17 presently claimed to be of virgin copper.  18 However, very few have been tested  19 chemically but tests are continuing.  At the  20 National Museum of Canada, which incidently  21 has the greatest collection of coppers  22 known, tests have been going on for the past  23 year (1962).  To date, no copper in their  24 collection of some 50 has been found to be  25 made of native copper and none examined  26 appear to have been hammered.  In the 1960  27 report of the Provincial Museum at Victoria,  28 Wilson Duff says, 'We do not know directly  29 of any existing copper which was made of the  30 natural metal.'"  31  32 Just pausing there.  Are you aware of any  33 scientific writing indicating that sheet copper for  34 copper shields -- that is copper shields were not  35 historic?  In other words, copper shields made of  36 native copper, are you aware of any scientific writing  37 to indicate that?  38 A   That the ones that they have --  39 Q   Are you aware of any scientific writings indicating  40 that a copper shield was made of native copper?  41 A   Oh, no, I'm not.  But the assumption that he makes  42 here one may be also -- "One may also be fairly safe  43 in assuming that none of the Indians contacted by  44 these traders had any tinnehs either until after they  45 had acquired commercial sheet copper."  That's the  46 assumption behind this study that they did.  They're  47 assuming that because the coppers that they have are 17337  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 from commercial coppers that were traded to them, and  2 that those are the only ones that were ever made.  And  3 that's an assumption that nobody has proven one way or  4 the other.  5 Q   Right.  6 A  And the Indian people say that the coppers are  7 ancient.  8 Q   It's an assumption based on the fact that of all of  9 the copper shields they have found they haven't found  10 a copper shield made of native copper?  11 A  At this point the studies were still ongoing, but,  12 yes, that is correct.  I'm not sure if the studies are  13 complete by this date.  14 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, 1051-10.  15 THE COURT:  Yes.  16  17 (EXHIBIT 1051-10:  Article - Origin of the "Chief's  18 Copper" or "Tinneh")  19  20 MR. WILLMS:  21 Q   Ms. Marsden, is red hair another indication of a  22 historic date?  If someone with red hair is described  23 in an adaawk is that an indication of a historic date?  24 A  Would you like to refer me to the adaawk?  25 Q   Well, do you still have Hai'mas in front of you?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   You'll see in the second paragraph, the last line,  28 "There were quite a number of red-headed boys like  2 9 Hai'mas"?  30 A   On page two?  31 Q   On page one, second paragraph, the last line.  "There  32 were quite a number of red-headed boys like Hai'mas."  33 Is red hair another indication that the adaawk may be  34 describing something which is taking place in the  35 historic period?  36 A   I certainly didn't use it as such, no.  I said I don't  37 use that kind of indications in my methodology.  It's  38 interesting.  39 Q   I'm showing you adaawk number eight from the list.  40 "Hai'mas and His Kanhada Warriors".  This is another  41 adaawk that you reviewed?  42 A   Yes.  As I said, I didn't rely on the Hai'mas events.  43 MR. WILLMS:  1051-11, my lord.  44  45 (EXHIBIT 1051-11:  Adaawk - Haimas and His Kanhada  46 Warriors)  47 1733?  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 THE COURT:  So they only impinge on the Gitksan?  2 MR. WILLMS:  3 Q   You'll see on page two, for example, if you go up from  4 the three whole punch in the middle of page two up  5 about five lines:  6  7 "There was a sudden unrest among Gusrae'in's  8 wives when they saw the beauty of his  9 Tsimsyan wife, who was very fair and with  10 reddish hair."  11  12 That's another -- that's a clue that what's being  13 described here is taking place in historic times,  14 isn't it?  15 A  Well, I'm not -- I don't even know what scientific  16 discipline studies genetic heritage in terms of people  17 who are aboriginal, but I certainly wouldn't use the  18 colour of hair, dark or light skin as an indication of  19 time depth.  The Haida people have remarkable genetic  20 differences that nobody can explain.  It's just not  21 something that I -- I would use.  22 MR. WILLMS:  Maybe I can do one more adaawk, here, my lord.  Can  23 you turn to adaawk 25 in 1048.  2 4    THE COURT:  Tab 25.  25 MR. WILLMS:  Tab 25 at 1048, my lord.  It's the Origin of the  26 name Sabaen.  This is in Raven Clan Outlaws, my lord.  27 Q   Now, this adaawk, if you look to the bottom of the  28 page, Ms. Marsden, bottom of page one, it says:  29  30 "This they kept on doing while saying,  31 'Soap', which they gave him and took a  32 halibut from the canoe."  33  34 Now, is soap a clue that the events are taking  35 place -- here are taking place in historic times?  36 A   This is a really interesting adaawk, because it deals  37 with the first encounter of the Kitkatla people with a  38 white person.  And as you can imagine it was a fairly  39 significant event.  And if you go above it at the  40 beginning of the second paragraph:  41  42 "One day two Gitrhahla men set out from  43 there village to fish for halibut and were  44 so absorbed in fishing that they failed to  45 notice a large boat approaching.  When one  46 of them looked up, he saw a huge being with  47 many wings approaching towards them.  They 17339  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 at once thought that it was a monster which  2 lived in the nearby rocks.  They were at the  3 time fishing over a spenarhnorh."  4  5 That means a magical spot.  6  7 "From which a huge Raven used to emerge.  8 They thought that the monster had now taken  9 a new form and was approaching to do them  10 harm."  11  12 And then it goes on.  And the monster was the  13 first sailing ship they had ever seen, and they  14 encountered these people.  And if you look in the  15 historical record one of the first encounters with  16 Indians, and I haven't got the name of the explorer at  17 the tip of my tongue, was in exactly this area near  18 the south end of Pit Island.  And this is an account  19 of the first contact they had.  And soap there is just  20 as we know it, it's soap.  And then he goes on to talk  21 about revolvers and pots and --  22 Q   Right.  23 THE COURT:  I haven't found that reference to soap, Mr. —  24 MR. WILLMS:  It's at the very bottom of the page, my lord, just  25 where -- at tab 25.  The sentence starts in the  26 middle.  "This they kept on doing while saying,  27 'Soap'".  28 THE COURT:  On the first page?  29 MR. WILLMS:  On the first page.  30 THE COURT:  Is this captivities and —  31 MR. WILLMS:  No.  This is in 1048, Raven Clan Outlaws.  You're  32 in the part that I think my friend wants to take out.  33 There's a tab 25 early on in the tab.  I think you're  34 looking at one of the ones that my friend wants to  35 remove.  And it's the Origin of the Name of Sabaen,  36 S-A-B-A-E-N.  37 THE COURT:  Yes.  Where is this reference to the soap?  38 MR. WILLMS:  Bottom of the page.  "This they kept on doing while  39 saying, 'Soap', which they gave him and took a halibut  4 0 from the canoe."  41 Q   So this is an adaawk describing a historic event -- an  42 event in historic times?  43 A   That's right.  44 Q   All right.  45 A  And that's -- see, when he says, "This they kept  46 doing", from what I understand from this is the white  47 people were saying trade soap -- soap for halibut. 17340  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 And he took the halibut from the canoe and the  2 Gitrhahla man, apart from being in shock, thought that  3 they were naming him when they were giving him the  4 soap.  5 THE COURT: All right.  6 MR. WILLMS: This would be an appropriate time, my lord.  7 THE COURT: Yes.  Do you want to come back early?  8 MR. WILLMS: Well, my lord, in terms of where I am I don't think  9 it's going to make a difference.  I think we'll be  10 into tomorrow.  11 THE COURT:  All right.  Two o'clock then.  Thank you.  12 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until  13 two o'clock.  14  15 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  16  17 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  18 a true and accurate transcript of the  19 proceedings herein to the best of my  20 skill and ability.  21  22  23  24 Peri McHale, Official Reporter  25 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 17341  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 2:00 p.m.)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Willms.  5  6 SUSAN MARSDEN, Resumed:  7  8 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, the first thing I'd like to do is withdraw  9 1051-6 for Identification.  I have confirmed that not  10 only is it unrelated to the witness, it is related  11 primarily to, I think, other documents and so it  12 should be withdrawn.  13 THE COURT:  All right.  I will hand it back to you.  14 MR. GRANT:  That certainly saves some of my time.  This was done  15 when I was gone from the court this morning and I  16 certainly had some comments but I can save my breath.  17 MR. WILLMS:  But I wonder if I could, while we've got the tab  18 open, so that I can --  19 MR. GRANT:  Fill it up.  20 MR. WILLMS:  21 Q   -- make sure that there is something there in the  22 index.  Miss Marsden, I am showing you Holocene  23 Glacial History of the Great Glacier Area, A  24 Preliminary Report Based on Previous Work in Adjacent  25 Areas, Prepared for Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en Tribal  26 Council, from J.M. Ryder, August 1985.  This is the  27 report that you referred earlier about glaciers on the  28 Stikine?  29 A   Yes.  30 MR. WILLMS:  Maybe that could go back in as 1051-6, my lord.  31 THE COURT:  It will be much easier to make it —  32 MR. WILLMS:  1051-12.  33 THE COURT:  Yes.  34 MR. WILLMS:  That's fine, my lord.  35  36 (EXHIBIT 1051-12 - HOLOCENE GLACIAL HISTORY OF THE  37 GREAT GLACIER AREA)  38  39 THE COURT:  I have forgotten who Holocene was.  Does anybody  40 remember?  I asked someone and I was told but I  41 forgot.  Well, we'll find out.  42 MR. GRANT:  I recall you asking someone as well, my lord.  43 THE COURT:  All right.  44 MR. WILLMS:  I think it means since the last ice age but that's  45 a guess.  I thought Dr. Gottesfeld said something  46 about late holocene, mid holocene, early holocene  47 being breaking it down after the last ice age but -- 17342  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  2 MR. WILLMS:  3 Q   On the first page, Miss Marsden, you will see that  4 Ryder starts with the Late Neoglacial Advance (the  5 most recent glacier expansion; commonly referred to as  6 the "Little Ice Age".  Now, had you read this document  7 before you wrote your report or did you write it at  8 the same time you were writing your report?  9 A   It was intermediate.  10 Q   Intermediate.  You will see that she says:  11  12 "Glacier advance began as early as about 900 14  13 carbon year B.P. (1000 A.D.) at some sites.  (eg.  14 Southern Coast Mountains, see Ryder and Thompson  15 manuscript), and is generally considered to have  16 been well underway during the 15th to 17th  17 centuries.  Glaciers reached their maximum extent  18 during the 18th and 19th century (the actual date  19 of the maximum varies from glacier to glacier  20 dependent on local conditions).  Recession then  21 commenced and continued at varying rates until  22 close to the present time.  (Some glaciers are now  23 expanding once again.) "  24  25 So you know -- you knew when you read this that that's  26 a description of the glaciers physically moving, when  27 she says advanced, they are moving forward; when they  28 are receding, they are moving back physically?  29 A   Yes.  30 MR. WILLMS:  All right.  31 THE COURT:  Can somebody tell me what this 900 and then raised  32 14C YR means?  33 MR. WILLMS:  It is carbon 14.  Your lordship may remember, the  34 carbon 14 dating by B.P. is B.P. I think before 1952.  35 There is a particular date that's chosen, so it's  36 not -- I think that that's what that refers to.  37 THE COURT:  Means 900 years before the present whatever that  3 8 was.  39 MR. WILLMS:  Before the carbon 14 present.  40 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  Carbon 14 is the name of a test,  41 isn't it?  42 MR. WILLMS:  43 Q   Yes, that's the -- now, if you turn to page 3, she  44 sets out a summary of carbon summary dates from the  45 Stikine-Iskut Area, and refers to table 1 which is on  46 the next page but she summarizes in that paragraph:  47 17343  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 "Dates obtained from trees and soil that were  2 overridden during late-Neoglacial advance and then  3 re-exposed due to 20th century glacier recession  4 indicate that glaciers in this area were advancing  5 during the 14th and 15th centuries.  No detailed  6 studies have been done of the age of related  7 terminal moraines, but since the vegetation on  8 most of these is sparse and/or immature, it is  9 likely that glaciers achieved their maxima during  10 the 18th and 19th centuries, as elsewhere in the  11 Coast Mountains."  12  13 And so you knew when you read this she is referring to  14 the glacier advances in the Stikine area reaching  15 their maxima during the 18th and 19th centuries during  16 the Little Ice Age?  17 A   The ones that were studied, yes.  18 MR. WILLMS:  Yes.  And then if you turn over to the bottom of  19 page 4, she comes to some conclusions.  Starting at  20 the very bottom of 4, she says:  21  22 "No Great Glacier moraines or related features were  23 positively identified on the far (east) side of  24 Stikine River.  All individual morainal ridges  25 (except one that was noted on the higher quality  26 photos - and this ridge closely parallels its  27 neighbour, see sketch on page 6) continuously  28 follow the arcuate shape of the main morainal  29 area.  This suggests that no significant erosion  30 of moraines has been effected by Stikine River,  31 and that the outermost moraine marks the limit of  32 the recent (but see 4 below) advance.  When the  33 ice stood at that moraine, the river would have  34 flowed very close to it, probably at the foot of a  35 steep ice slope, and possibly in a canyon with  36 one side of steep rock and the other of steep  37 ice, Could this have been the 'tunnel'?"  38  39 Now, when you read that, you knew that what she is  40 talking about is the tunnel through the ice described  41 in the glacier adaawk, correct?  42 MR. GRANT:  Where, the last word?  43 MR. WILLMS:  44 Q   Yes.  Could this have been the tunnel -- when you read  45 that, Miss Marsden, you recognized that that's the  46 tunnel, she is talking about the tunnel in the glacier  47 adaawk? 17344  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  A   That's right.  WILLMS:  And then at the bottom just getting to the see 4  below, if you go down to 4, Age of moraines, and she  does say Speculation, I am still on page 5, my lord,  the paragraph 4:  "The heavily forested outermost ridges could have  been formed during an early phase of  late-Neoglacial expansion (ie late 17th or early  18th century), thus allowing about 250 years for  development of the present forest.  Alternatively,  they could date from earlier 200 year..."  MR.  MR.  GRANT:  WILLMS:  Q  Two thousand.  " (2000 yr?) advance,  likely."  The first possibility is most  Now, when you reviewed that, Miss Marsden, did you  think that that might be helpful in dating the glacier  adaawk for you?  A   She is referring to the Scud glacier here; is that  correct?  THE COURT:  I am sorry, the what?  THE WITNESS:  The Scud.  On the table prior to page 4 she is —  her summaries here in relationship to this Scud  glacier or the unnamed glacier, it is not really  clear.  MR. WILLMS:  Q   Well, I thought she was talking about the great  glacier?  A  Well, that's the Scud glacier.  That was previously  referred to as the Scud glacier; is that correct?  Q   Well, without -- just take it as a glacier on the  Stikine, a glacier on the Stikine, whether it is the  Scud, Great, Iskut?  A  Well, there are a number of them, yes.  MR. GRANT:  But — well, my lord, I think that my friend, he  can't have it both ways.  If he is putting this  document to the witness and extracting from it, the  author of the document dealt with four different  glaciers according to the table.  My friend -- the  witness wants clarification as to what this excerpt is  about.  My friend can't just say, well, just take any  one.  I don't think that's fair.  I mean, she is  entitled to know which one he is putting to her or 17345  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 asking about.  2 MR. WILLMS:  3 Q   Well, perhaps the witness could say which glacier it  4 is on the Stikine that she understands is the glacier  5 that the chief sailed under or do you know what name  6 it has?  7 A   This was once again one of the sources that could have  8 provided a date.  The summary of the information that  9 I derived from the geology was that this particular  10 glacier, if I am correct in assuming that it's the one  11 that I think it is, does not really fit the  12 description, "In a canyon with one side of steep rock  13 and the other of steep ice".  If I was going to use a  14 corroborative scientific piece of information I wanted  15 something that was unequivocal.  There was reference  16 to another glacier, and I am not sure whether it was  17 the mud glacier or the flood glacier, because it's  18 been a while, that was considered to have been the  19 only one that could possibly have reached right across  20 the river.  And the statement was that, since the Mini  21 Ice Age or the Little Ice Age had gone to the furthest  22 reaches of that site and therefore destroyed any  23 evidence to the earlier advance of the glacier and on  24 page -- the first page at the bottom, she says other  25 studies throughout B.C. indicate that glaciers were  26 advancing or relatively extensive between 3,000 or  27 3,500 and 2,000 14 carbon years B.P., they reached  28 their terminal positions at various times during this  29 interval, and then she gives other dates for the work  30 done, not -- Stikine River has not been done as well  31 as other areas, so the conclusion that I came to was  32 that the one glacier that was a potential for giving  33 us a date, the evidence had been destroyed by the more  34 recent and since, in my chronology of the events, this  35 event took place in earlier time, the very recent date  36 was not one that was helpful.  37 Q   It didn't fit, did it?  It just doesn't fit your  38 chronology, this date?  39 A  Well —  40 MR. GRANT:  Which one?  41 THE WITNESS:  It isn't a definitive date about glaciers on the  42 Stikine.  It is not definitive research.  It doesn't  43 cover all the glaciers and it is not the only dates,  44 so even if I were trying to prove a recent passage  45 under the glaciers, it still wouldn't be a definitive  46 date because somebody could come along and say, well,  47 it could have been earlier, couldn't it, if that's 17346  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 what they were trying to prove, so it was not  2 unequivocal and I couldn't use it.  3 THE COURT:  When she is talking about the tunnel, she is talking  4 about the glacier that came close to the river as  5 shown on the sketch on page 6 with respect to which  6 she says above the sketch see 2 above, and 2 above is  7 the one that talks about the tunnel?  8 THE WITNESS:  That's right.  The one that she's speaking about  9 here, and I am not -- it's -- I'm -- I think it is the  10 Scud glacier that that's referring to with her  11 sketches in this analysis, is that the furthest  12 moraines which she considers to be recent did not go  13 across the river so that precludes the possibility of  14 that glacier being the tunnel one because they would  15 have more extensive moraines showing if there had been  16 a more ancient glacier that had extended right across  17 the river, that evidence would be there.  In other  18 words, if the Mini Ice Age hadn't gone just that bit  19 further, then there would be the possibility of  20 evidence for earlier ones.  21 MR. WILLMS:  22 Q   So because this date -- just explain again was it the  23 date that caused you the problem here or her  24 conclusion that perhaps the tunnel described in the  25 adaawk, instead of being a tunnel between running  26 under a glacier, had a glacier cliff on one side down  27 by the side of the river and then a cliff on the other  28 side part of the natural river, was that the reason  29 why you rejected the date suggested here?  30 A   No.  That -- it may -- I was looking for something  31 that duplicated their description, and this doesn't  32 duplicate it.  33 Q   And it —  34 A  And it —  35 MR. WILLMS:  Your view —  36 MR. GRANT:  Just hold on.  37 MR. WILLMS:  38 Q   -- is that the adaawks -- you must take each adaawk as  39 being literally accurate; is that correct?  4 0 A    No.  41 Q   No?  42 A   No, that's not correct.  Had she been able to say this  43 is the only possible thing that could have occurred on  44 the Stikine River during any time period, then that  45 would have been a major factor, if she had been able  46 to say that, but she was not able to say that.  She  47 was not able to say whether there was earlier one or 17347  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 there wasn't.  There was simply not conclusive,  2 unequivocal evidence either way.  It was not something  3 that I could use.  4 Q   Dr. Barbeau did use that, though?  5 A   Yes, but I think he is referring to the same glacier  6 and, as you can see, in the geologists that he quotes,  7 assumed that it had gone right across the river and  8 later evidence shows that it didn't.  9 MR. WILLMS:  Now, can you turn to tab 17 in Exhibit 1053, it's  10 the blue -- and this adaawk, the Tlingit Humiliation  11 Pole, this adaawk is taken from Raven Clan Outlaws, it  12 is number 29; correct?  13 THE COURT:  I am sorry, Mr. Willms?  14 MR. WILLMS:  Tab — should be — hopefully it is at tab 17.  15 THE COURT:  1052.  16 THE REGISTRAR:  53.  17 THE COURT:  53.  I thought you said 52.  18 MR. WILLMS:  No, 1053 at tab 17.  Should be adaawk number 29, a  19 Tlingit Humiliation Pole.  2 0 THE COURT:  Yes, thank you.  21 MR. WILLMS:  22 Q   From Wolf -- from Raven Clan Outlaws.  This you will  23 note, Miss Marsden, the informant is 71 years old;  24 correct?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And then if you look to the last page, and I am  27 just -- what I am dealing with here is just dating.  28 On page 4, you will see the last paragraph:  29  30 "The informant himself bears the name of  31 Sen'arhaet.  He was told this story by his  32 grandfather, who had witnessed the incident.  His  33 sister had married into the Giludzau house of  34 Neeshlgumit."  35  36 Now, that's another way to date what's transpiring in  37 an adaawk, isn't it, to look at the informant, the age  38 of the informant, and where the informant received the  39 information; correct?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   So that you can see, since this narrative was recorded  42 in 1952 by William Beynon and the informant is 71  43 years old and he heard it from his grandfather, who  44 had witnessed the incident, that the incident likely  45 took place in historic times?  4 6 A   To my knowledge in what I have been doing, that  47 indication is a reliable indication, yes. 17348  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  MR.  WILLMS  2  3  THE  COURT:  4  5  MR.  WILLMS  6  MR.  GRANT:  7  8  MR.  WILLMS  9  Q  10  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  MR.  WILLMS  17  MR.  GRANT:  18  MR.  WILLMS  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  A  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  :  Yes.  So maybe we could just go back into Raven  Clan Outlaws which is 1048, my lord.  Are you seeking to mark this -- I guess that whole  book is marked, is it?  :  Yes.  I marked the whole book, my lord.  I wasn't here.  Is this full book extracts from the  four volumes of Barbeau and Beynon?  Yes, it is .  Now, another way to date an adaawk is to read the  description of what's taking place. For example, you  will see --  I don't have this ahead of me.  You don't?  What reference are you --  :  It is 1038 tab 34.  1048.  1048?  Tab 34.  It is entitled the Tsimshian at Metlakatla.  Yes.  And you will see that from the description in the  adaawk itself, the second line:  "The territory there is about to assume the  responsibilities of full citizenship in the  village instead of remaining under the  jurisdiction of Department of Indian Affairs of  Canada will sever that connection and become an  incorporated village of the province of British  Columbia."  So there is another way.  What you can do is look at  the adaawks and pick out of the adaawks descriptions  of events involving the government or Indian agents  and alike, that helps you date what's happening in an  adaawk?  This isn't an adaawk, it's a William Beynon  personal -- this isn't an adaawk.  It is his personal  narrative about the situation and doesn't -- it is  included there.  It's certainly part of history, but  it is not an adaawk in the sense that he would have  told this at a feast or -- it's unusual in the whole  body of these binders that there is probably only one  or two other of these like this, but this is his  account of something that's happening in Metlakatla 17349  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 after content.  2 Q   Well, perhaps you could turn to tab 37, 1048-37, which  3 is a Gitsalas War Upon The Haida.  Is this an adaawk?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And this is an adaawk that describes events that take  6 place in historic times?  7 A   Could I have a chance to read this, please?  Yes --  8 no, no, sorry.  You said this is an early one.  9 Q   No, I am saying this takes place in historic times?  10 A   No, not according to my chronology.  11 Q   When do you say that this -- the events described in  12 here took place?  13 A  Well, this is the Haida War.  I have skimmed it really  14 quickly, but this is the Haida War that I described.  15 Q   Do you mean the war with Nekt?  16 A   No, the war preceding Nekt.  17 Q   Preceding Nekt.  The reason why I suggest that it's  18 historic is on page 3, for example, you will see the  19 fourth line down the line:  20  21 "Then they saw the sails in the distance and  22 prepared the food."  23  24 Isn't an indication of sails an indication of historic  25 times?  26 A   Not necessarily, no.  27 Q   Sails in the distance is not an indication of historic  28 times; that is, times after the sailing ships, the  29 European sailing ships plied the coast?  30 A  Well, there is two points here.  First of all, you  31 have been implying all along that I date -- that I get  32 a sense of the time span of something by references to  33 things like red hair or coppers or things like that,  34 and that's not the method that I use.  If there are  35 references to those things, for example, sails, I  36 remember seeing this in this version and I remember  37 having a problem with it, this informant also uses --  38 calls Gitsees (phonetic) Haimas' village in this  39 account.  And, as I said earlier today, Haimas is  40 recent in the sense of not historic but in the sense  41 of two or 300 years.  It's possible that Haimas was a  42 leading person at the same time as I have dated the  43 Haida Wars but I was -- those are the kinds of  44 references that make me go back and check all the  45 other versions and make sure that it still fits in the  46 chronology and I did that over a long period of time  47 with a number of situations.  Now, in terms of the 17350  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 sails, there are people who say that they use sails of  2 cedar bark and they use cedar bark mats and so on in  3 that way prior to contact.  If this had been the only  4 account that I had of this and it didn't interweave  5 with anything else, then that would have been more of  6 a factor in my decision about the dating of it.  7 Q   Okay.  Well, just on page 3, four lines up from the  8 bottom of tab 37, it says:  9  10 "When Hai'mas heard this, he was even more  11 downcrested."  12  13 Didn't that give you a clue that this is -- and I  14 think you said 200 years ago, let's say proto historic  15 anyway, if it's not historic, because of the reference  16 to Haimas?  17 A  Well, if we are going to go into this indepth, I'd  18 like to see the file for Gitsees and then I can point  19 out to you the time line of the chiefs in Gitsees and  20 the fact that the name Haimas rises to prominence  21 before other names.  22 Q   Well, let's -- perhaps we could just to help you date  23 this --  24 A  When I say recent, three or 400 years can include  25 recent, and that's when this Haida War is in my  26 chronology.  27 Q   Could you turn to adaawk 38, tab 38 of Exhibit 1048,  28 Gitrhahla Feud With The Haida.  Now, is this taking  29 place at about the same time as the Gitsalas War upon  30 the Haida?  31 A   This Gitrhahla is the Kitkatla people and they are not  32 the same as the Gitsalas people, and it's a different  33 war, and it was a strictly coastal event and I didn't  34 analyse it in detail.  35 Q   All right.  Because if you turn to page 3 of the  36 adaawk, you'll see right at the -- in the middle of  37 that last paragraph after the parenthesis mark:  38  39 "This happened when Kwawyemtkwa had usurped the  40 fishing rights of Waes taking advantage that  41 Waes was now a young boy unable to receive them.  42 Kwawyemtkwa soon became wealthy and usurped these  43 fishing rights by registering them with government  44 authority."  45  46 So now when you read this one, you knew this one  47 talked about the historic period? 17351  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Yes.  And this particular name, the name that I  3 spelled that was -- because I can't pronounce it, that  4 is a coastal chief's name but not Gitksan?  Is that --  5 is that right, or do you --  6 A  Well, do you want me to read this and -- you are  7 flipping from one adaawk to another, and it's -- I  8 don't know how much indepth you want to go with this.  9 If you want me to go indepth with it, then I will.  10 Q   No.  I just want to know whether or not you recognize  11 the name K-w-a-w-y-e-m-t-k-w-a?  12 A  As a Gitksan name?  13 Q   No, as a name on the coast?  14 A   No.  It's not -- it's not one of the ongoing leading  15 chiefs over time to my knowledge.  16 THE COURT:  Well, if you are saying it is not a recognized  17 coastal name, is it a recognized Gitksan name?  18 THE WITNESS:  I am not familiar with it as an important Gitksan  19 name.  It is -- the spelling of it is -- well, if I  20 saw a number of references to it in different places,  21 I don't think so at this point --  22 THE COURT:  How about Waes, W-a-e-s?  23 THE WITNESS:  I have heard that one before but that's not a  24 Gitksan name.  25 MR. WILLMS:  26 Q   Turn to adaawk 44, Captivity of Haida Princesses Among  27 The Niskae.  Now, another way to fix the events of an  28 adaawk in the historic period as with this one, note  29 the reference to the Hudson's Bay Company Trading Post  30 on the Nass?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Yes.  So that's another way, references to government,  33 references to the Hudson's Bay Company; that helps you  34 fix --  35 A   Of course, of course.  If there was an adaawk, a  36 reference to the Hudson's Bay Company, that's what it  37 is.  38 Q   And then similarly on the next page, sorry, on the  39 next tab, tab 45 which is the adaawk The Last Haida  40 Invasion On The Niskae, once again the Last Haida  41 Invasion On The Niskae takes place at a time, and I am  42 in the second paragraph, when the white traders  43 arrived on the coast?  44 A   Yes.  In fact, it is about that when the forts were  45 established, there were tremendous hostilities between  46 a number of groups in their competitions over the fur  47 trade, but the Haida and the Nishga had had ongoing 17352  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 hostilities over a long period of time.  These were  2 simply the most recent ones.  3 Q   But the last one after the white traders came, there  4 were no more wars between the Haida, there were no  5 more Haida invasions of the Nishga?  6 A  After the traders came?  7 Q   Yes.  8 A  After the traders came?  9 Q   Yes.  Well, the title is The Last Haida Invasion On  10 The Niskae.  That's the title of the adaawk?  11 A   That's right because this is --  12 Q   So this is —  13 A   Invasion of the Nishga, not hostilities with the  14 Nishga and I am not --  15 Q   Oh —  16 A   Like what's happening here is that the fort is at -- I  17 am really at a disadvantage because I can't read this  18 but, if I understand this, this is when the fort was  19 at the mouth of the Nass, and the Nishga were then the  20 focus of the hostilities of the Haida because they had  21 the fort.  But I'd have to read that to be sure.  And  22 then after the fort moved to the Tsimshian territory,  23 then the Haida started attacking Tsimshian but there  24 are accounts even in the journals of the people at  25 those forts of hostilities between the different  26 peoples the entire time the fort was there.  27 Q   You say this is an adaawk of a physical invasion but  28 hostilities continued after?  29 A   I am saying that it's possible that they did.  30 Q   Could you turn to 1048-46, this is Lutrhaisu and  31 Naequ, Her Son, and this is what Dr. McDonald wrote  32 about in the epic of Nekt?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And you said I think earlier that in your view Dr.  35 McDonald had a good appreciation of oral histories?  36 A   I don't always agree with his conclusions but he's  37 receptive to them.  38 Q   And can you tell me again when in terms of dating you  39 put the epic of Nekt -- you say Nekt is a single  40 figure, it is not a chiefly figure over a period of  41 time and you mentioned the volcanic eruption on the  42 Nass that Tseax -- is that about the time that you put  43 the death of Nekt, about that time?  44 A   I put it prior to that.  45 Q   Prior to that?  46 A   Yes, prior to that, and other indications are that it  47 wasn't that long before that. 17353  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   All right.  Now, you will see in this adaawk if you go  2 down to the middle paragraph:  3  4 "Right after the flood, which is called Ptalks -  5 Swell-of-the-water, the town of Temlarh'am On-the-  6 good-land-of-yore was established.  One man came  7 from there, whose name was Yae'1.  He killed  8 another man and ran away into hiding.  After a  9 long time, he returned and stayed in the village  10 of Temlarh'am.  He killed another man and again  11 ran away and disappeared.  This often happened.  12 My great grandfather was also living at  13 Temlarh'am.  He asked Yae'l, 'When you murder  14 somebody, where do you go and hide?'  He replied,  15 'I have found a good place, where the willows hang  16 right over the water.  There are plenty of fish  17 there - humpback (stem'awn), winter salmon (melit)  18 sockeye or summer salmon (mesaw'), and spring  19 salmon (ya').  That is what I have lived on.  When  20 I have murdered somebody, that is where I go, to  21 Sparhyaaorh, Hiding-place-ashore, or Place-of-  22 hiding.  The present name of Kispayaks is derived  23 from that.'"  24  25 Now, when you read this adaawk, you saw that in this  2 6 adaawk you could also determine when the name of  27 Kispiox, when it was derived; is that fair?  28 A   This is one of those compressed adaawk that starts  29 with Temlaxam.  Well, it starts with the flood, and it  30 accounts for the founding of Kispiox and then it goes  31 on to --  32 MR. WILLMS:  But you will see that the informant Salomon Johnson  33 said that his great grandfather was living in  34 Temlaxam, and then after that, Yae'l, because of the  35 name that Yae'l had given the place, Kispiox was  36 named.  So does that help you in trying to date --  37 MR. GRANT:  I don't think that's what my friend's quote just  38 says.  It doesn't say after that, that's what he says.  39 My friend is again misstating what he just read.  40 MR. WILLMS:  41 Q   Well, it says:  42  43 "When I have murdered somebody..."  44  45 and this is Yae'l talking:  46  47 "...that is where I go." 17354  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2 And then I won't read it, I will read the English:  3  4 "Hiding-place-ashore, or Place-of-hiding.  The  5 present name of Kispayaks is derived from that."  6  7 When I read that, and maybe I am not reading these  8 adaawks right, but it looked to me like Yae'l had a  9 hiding place and that the present name of Kispiox was  10 derived from that hiding place?  11 A   Your analysis in this case is correct.  This is the  12 account of the founding of Kispiox after Yae'l found  13 it during Temlaxam and, shortly thereafter, the people  14 dispersed from Temlaxam and Yae'l -- they form their  15 village there.  And I know you're going to go on and  16 say, well, is there reference to the name Nekt here  17 which I say has been derived from the Fortress at  18 Battle Hill; however, that's one of the things that I  19 had to consider again and again in going through these  20 adaawks because, as in that Haimas indication, you  21 can't always use the use of a name in a time period as  22 an indication -- in an adaawk as an indication of the  23 time period because sometimes they use names that have  24 happened recently, have evolved recently, to refer to  25 the group of which they are a part, and it's not a  26 reliable -- there is a great deal of consistency but  27 there are exceptions in terms of using names that have  28 been adopted.  Niislaganoos, for example.  29 Niislaganoos gets his name after he comes through the  30 great glacier because of the events on that side of  31 the glacier; however, he's described as Niislaganoos  32 in the events preceding that.  So names -- names can  33 be used to reflect back to the group, and the name  34 Nekt is also in the House of Delgamuukw.  It's not a  35 definitive form of placing an event and an adaawk in  36 any period.  Simply the reference to a name.  However,  37 if the name Nekt were outside of the group, if you go  38 on to analyse these Nekt adaawk, they have Nekt --  39 Nekt's mother being born in three different villages,  40 which was one of the indications I used and I think  41 George McDonald used to indicate a certain amount of  42 time depth because, if it's a very recent adaawk,  43 there isn't that kind of -- not imprecision, but --  44 but when a historical event takes place and it's  45 considered to be important over time, the relatives of  46 the person or the house actually experiencing the  47 event get to use things like the crests and the names 17355  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 and so on from that event; in other words, the adaawk  2 gets dispersed.  In this case, the people who said the  3 villages from where Lutrhaisu is said to come from all  4 have branches of the wilnaldah in them and they use  5 the crests of Nekt which is another indication of a  6 certain amount of time depth because -- and that's as  7 far as I will go at this point.  8 Q   Can you turn to page 2, please.  You will see down in  9 the paragraph starting after the three hole punch, the  10 adaawk says:  11  12 "Yae'l built the first house, then Tael'amuq did  13 likewise, next Wee'alerh, then Naeqt, then Me'us,  14 then Inda'ap, then Wawsemlarhae, then  15 Rhtsemlarhae.  It was my great grandfather Yae'l  16 who had founded the village of Kispayaks."  17  18 Now, when you read that in the adaawk, and knowing  19 about the dating of Nekt to the lava flow, you tied  20 the founding of Kispiox with Nekt to the lava flow and  21 concluded that it would have been in the seventeen  22 hundreds?  23 A   Could you repeat your question, please?  24 Q   Well, there are two pieces of information, I will  25 break the pieces of information down.  Piece of  26 information one is your evidence that Nekt died, in  27 your view, a short time or close to the lava flow,  28 that's Tseax's lava flow; correct?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Secondly, this adaawk says that:  31  32 "My great grandfather founded the village of  33 Kispayaks."  34  35 All right?  36 A  Well, he is starting -- in the adaawk they start in  37 different places.  In this case, he starts at  38 Temlaxam, the founding of Kispiox.  Those are two  39 important events in his history.  40 Q   But just take those two things --  41 A   Can I just finish, please.  42 MR. WILLMS:  Well, my lord —  43 THE WITNESS:  Okay, we are at —  44 MR. WILLMS:  The witness is not being responsive.  I have a very  45 simple question here and I'd like to be able to put it  46 to the witness and then she can explain anything she'd  47 like to explain after she answers the question. 17356  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  If the witness could finish  can't remember it.  Do you  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  MR. GRANT:  With respect, my lord, the witness was explaining  the answer.  I mean, you see the volume of material  that she's had to deal with and he's putting these  excerpts and she is explaining it in the context and  answering the question.  I think she's being very  responsive.  THE COURT:  I don't think you need to characterize a general or  a specific state of responsiveness.  The witness is  entitled to look at something that she's been asked  about and counsel are entitled to assist her if they  can.  I don't think there is any problem here.  MR. GRANT:  Well, I would like — I take it then you don't mind  her finishing --  COURT:  Now there is a problem.  GRANT:  Now there is a problem.  her answer.  COURT:  If she remembers it.  I  have something you want to add, ma'am?  WITNESS:  No.  I was just making sure where the next event  started here, my lord.  WILLMS:  Q   Now, I am just suggesting to you that when you take  the reference of Nekt on page 2 and the piece of  knowledge that you have got about the Tseax's lava  flow, and then you also take the knowledge from the  adaawk itself that it was the informant's great  grandfather who founded the village of Kispiox, that  when you put those two together, it's consistent with  Kispiox being formed in the seventeen hundreds?  A   The Indian -- the Indian words for grandfather are --  there are a number of words in the Indian language and  I am not conversant with all of them.  The word for  grandfather is Ye'e.  And, after that, it goes back in  terms of time depth, and it means ancestors.  And it  is often translated as my grandfather's, my great  grandfather's.  It's not -- it's not the same use of  the term, and that's in the evidence of some of the  Indian witnesses.  I think in Craig Johnson, Antiye'e  was brought up.  Ye'e is grandfather, Antiye'e is  ancestors.  And in this case -- well, in any case,  unless it's sort of like my -- my grandfather was like  that one you referred to before and, even then I am  cautious; I can't use this as an indication of the  time depth.  What he is doing in this adaawk is he is  placing his house -- we were at Temlaxam, we founded  Kispiox, and then he is going on to tell the history  of Nekt, and that's why he is referring to Delgamuukw 17357  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 having a name Nekt.  2 Q   But when you read the word great grandfather in the  3 English version of this, you do not know what  4 questions were asked of the informant to determine  5 whether that's great grandfather in English or great  6 grandfather in Gitksan, do you?  7 A   No.  That's why I can't rely on it, but there have  8 been other situations where I have been able to show  9 that it's not a reliable way.  10 MR. WILLMS:  Well, let's go to the next epic of Nekt which is at  11 tab 47, and it's entitled the Epic of Nekt.  12 THE COURT:  Are you suggesting by that that all these are part  13 of the Nekt collection?  14 MR. WILLMS:  No, no, not all of these.  My lord, as I understand  15 it --  16 THE COURT:  Let's go to the next Nekt.  17 MR. WILLMS:  18 Q   There are a number of different versions of many  19 different adaawks.  There are at least two of Nekt, I  20 don't know, there may be -- well, there appear to be  21 even more of Nekt.  What I understand Dr. Barbeau did  22 was he tried to collect the adaawks that were related  23 to each other, at least in time, or related to the  24 same subject as close as he could, so that's why we  25 find at tab 47 the adaawk, the Epic of Nekt; at tab  26 48, the Nekt the Warrior; tab 49, Tongue-Licked which  27 refers to Nekt again.  So he is trying to put them all  28 in the same area and I just wanted to turn to the next  29 one.  And you will see here the Epic of Nekt again,  30 and at the bottom of the page, and this is at 1048-47,  31 the bottom of the page, the informant says:  32  33 "For the trade he had groundhog, caribou, moose,  34 and marten skins."  35  36 Now, we have heard evidence in this case that moose  37 didn't come into the Gitksan area, they were well  38 north, until about 1860.  Did you know that?  39 A   Yes, I know that that's -- that -- not in -- that  40 they -- not that they were never in this area but that  41 they know they weren't in this area at a certain time  42 and they came into this area after that time.  That's  43 what the -- they know.  There are many references to  44 moose in many different places and, when I was looking  45 at that, I just didn't find his scientific statement  46 that moose only came into this area as something I  47 could rely on, since they didn't have the date of 1735?  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  MR.  MR.  MR.  prior to that, they just know that they went away.  And even then, areas where they said they weren't,  during that time period there were Indian people who  had said that they had seen them there.  Q   All right.  Well, all I can go on is the evidence in  this case, Miss Marsden, and the evidence in this case  by Dr. Hatler was that the moose came into this area  after 1860, and I take it what you are saying is that  you knew that they weren't there prior to 1860; you  think that perhaps some time much longer ago, they may  have been there; is that right?  A   I am aware that they say that, and I think actually I  asked -- I asked him about this question, and asked  him if -- and he said we can't say anything about  animal habitat and where they were located prior to  the time periods of our studies.  That was in fact -- my lord, that was in fact part  of the evidence of Dr. Hatler.  There was a time limit  in terms of his own biological studies.  I don't remember that.  Yes, except for some -- a few random antlers and  places on some of the maps but he certainly did refer  to the time limits.  WILLMS:  Q   Yes, I think he -- my lord, I may be wrong but he --  it was the Little Ice Age that tied in with the moose  and, as the evidence is, is the Little Ice Age started  in the 14th and 15th centuries and then started  petering out in the 19th century when the moose  started coming down, and that I think he said there  wasn't -- he didn't have any evidence one way or the  other before the start of the Little Ice Age.  But just looking at that and knowing about the  Little Ice Age and that there was a period of time  when the moose were absent from the area, was that  something that you could -- that helped you in dating  the events in the adaawk, the reference to moose?  A   Did it help me?  Q   Yes?  A   No, it didn't help me.  And these events that he is  discussing here are once again events that precede the  Nekt -- this adaawk includes events other than the  adaawk of Nekt.  WILLMS:  Can you turn to tab 49, 1048-49.  GRANT:  My lord, I just ask if you note that Dr. Hatler's  evidence in Exhibit 358 map 13, he does talk about the  very thing my friend is suggesting and said -- he does 17359  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 say:  2  3 The moose is a relatively recent immigrant to  4 North America, arriving over the Bering Strait...  5 (reading)... were dated at least a thousand years  6 old.  7  8 He goes on to refer to that.  So I think that --  9 THE COURT:  358.  10 MR. GRANT:  It is Exhibit 358 tab 13, the map atlas overview,  11 and he refers to that and of course the map area  12 includes -- is north of this area includes it.  13 MR. WILLMS:  14 Q   And there is a reference to the Little Ice Age and the  15 problems associated with that and the moose in there  16 too, my lord.  Now, looking at 1048-9, Tongue-Licked.  17 Is this — oh, 49.  18 A   This is -- mine is all -- I don't have a 49.  19 Q   Do you have the adaawk?  20 A   This is sort of -- 48 and there is this --  21 THE COURT:  I don't seem to have 4 9 either.  How many pages in  22 49?  23 MR. WILLMS:  In 49, my lord, there are seven pages.  24 THE COURT:  Well, 48 looks like Nekt the Warrior.  25 MR. WILLMS:  And it's three pages.  2 6 THE COURT:  Well, my next page is numbered 3.  27 MR. WILLMS:  Oh.  28 MR. GRANT:  My lord, it appears that on your copy and the  29 exhibit copy, it appears that 48 and 49, in the  30 reproduction process there was some problem and I will  31 arrange to have, because after the first page of 48 as  32 you say it looks like the photocopier jammed on it, I  33 will replace those pages for your lordship and my  34 friend.  35 MR. MACAULAY:  We have the same problem.  36 THE COURT:  Looks like we are short part of 48.  37 MR. WILLMS:  Perhaps 49 wasn't intended to be put in, my lord.  38 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  Yes, I believe it was intended to be  39 put in 49, my lord.  I think what happened is 48 and  40 49 got -- I am sorry, my lord.  That's an oversight on  41 my part.  I will replace them.  My friend shouldn't  42 prevent him -- I think he's got a copy of 49.  43 MR. WILLMS:  44 Q   I am showing you adaawk 49, Tongue-Licked.  Do you  45 recognize that as another adaawk relating to Nekt?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And on page 4, and it's my copy so it is conveniently 17360  S. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 highlighted, you will see there is a reference:  2  3 "As they had no anchor, they took their large  4 copper shields and tied them together to use them  5 as anchors."  6  7 Now, as you stated earlier, you didn't take anything  8 historic or prehistoric from copper shields, did you?  9 A   No.  I am just looking at this to see what other  10 events it includes.  11 THE COURT:  Perhaps we should take the afternoon adjournment,  12 Mr. Willms.  13 MR. WILLMS:  My lord.  14 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned for a  15 short recess.  16  17 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:00 p.m.)  18  19 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  20 a true and accurate transcript of the  21 proceedings herein, transcribed to the  22 best of my skill and ability.  23  24  25  26  27  28 TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  29 United Reporting Service Ltd.  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 17361  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  2  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Willms.  4 MR. WILLMS:  My lord.  My lord, you should have adaawk 49 —  5 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, he has.  6 MR. WILLMS:  — Shortly, and 48.  Yes.  And it was in reference  7 to -- the witness was to page four, my lord, of 49.  8 THE COURT:  Page four of 49?  9 MR. GRANT:  Page four, yes.  10 THE COURT:  Yes.  11 MR. WILLMS:  And if you look in the very middle of the page  12 almost beside the three ring binder, the second line  13 in that paragraph.  14 THE COURT:  "As they had no anchor".  15 MR. WILLMS:  "As they had no anchor.  That was the sentence that  16 I put to the witness.  17 A  Well, in reviewing this it's titled "Tongue-Licked",  18 but the actual events that are taking place in where  19 you're asking me to look are the events of the  20 southward migration of the eagle clan.  This adaawk is  21 told by a member of the eagle clan of the Nass, who  22 have the right to use the Nekt crest, but are not  23 the -- they use the Nekt crest in thanks for putting  24 up Gulraerk as she passes through the Nass returning  25 to her own people.  And so just to put it in  26 context --  27 MR. WILLMS:  28 Q   Yes, but this is -- Gulraerk is the mother of Nekt?  29 A   That's correct.  30 Q   Okay.  So you can look at the copper shields in the  31 context of the mother of Nekt being alive?  32 A   No.  These events here are the events of the  33 migration.  This informant has covered a vast number  34 of events in this adaawk, and the one -- the page  35 where you're specifically referring to is the  36 southward migration of the eagles that I was referring  37 to yesterday.  38 Q   Okay.  Which preceded Nekt?  39 A   That's right.  40 Q   Okay.  So the reference to the copper shields is a  41 reference to something that happened before Nekt?  42 A   That's right.  43 Q   Okay.  And -- well, I won't ask you about copper  44 shields again.  Could you turn to tab 50, adaawk  45 entitled "The Tradition of the Household of Naerhl",  46 N-A-E-R-H-L.  Now, this is another story of Nekt; is  47 that correct? 17362  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And in fact on the very last page it describes the  3 Nekt on the Nass?  4 A  Are you asking?  5 Q   Yes.  6 A   It describes him on the Nass, yes.  7 Q   And in the last paragraph throughout this adaawk Nekt  8 is spelled N-A-E-R-H-L; correct?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   So if we're in the last paragraph on page ten, if you  11 look down five lines it says this:  12  13 "As the pursuer saw that the only way to  14 kill the bear was to shoot it through the  15 leg so he arrived this way and shot him with  16 a gun, one of the first used in the  17 country."  18  19 That's in square brackets.  And I think you said  20 earlier that's Barbeau inserting something or Beynon  21 inserting something?  22 A   It's a comment.  23 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  What page is that on?  24 MR. WILLMS:  Page ten.  25 THE COURT:  Oh, I missed that one.  26 A   If you look on page one where he has -- he's adding  27 information to it.  28 MR. WILLMS:  Yes.  And it's in the last paragraph, my lord.  2 9 THE COURT:  Yes, I have it.  Thank you.  30 MR. GRANT:  I think there's a reference on page one of the use  31 of brackets for Queen Charlotte Islands, my lord.  32 MR. WILLMS:  Well —  33 MR. GRANT:  The witness was referring to that, that's all.  34 MR. WILLMS:  I think the witness said earlier that when you see  35 square brackets in the adaawks it's either Barbeau or  36 Beynon inserting something -- a conclusion that they  37 have come to.  38 A   Yes.  And they are not always consistent.  They  39 sometimes do that with round brackets too, but I think  40 that's their basic format.  And if you look at the  41 other versions of the Nekt adaawk you'll see that this  42 is the only reference to him being shot with a gun.  43 Q   To a gun?  44 A   No.  To Nekt being shot with a gun.  45 Q   Okay.  Now, if you turn to the next adaawk, 1048-51,  46 you've read this, "The Eagle Crest on a Kanhada Pole",  47 and you'll see there is a reference in there to Nekt, 17363  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 but this is a reference to the use of a crest arising  2 from the family or -- yeah, from Nekt, the Household  3 of Nekt?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And you'll see in the very first paragraph:  6  7 "There was a great controversy between the  8 Kanhada (Raven-Frog) house of Wistis of  9 Gitsegyukla and the Hlengwarh of Gitwengaeh  10 (both Gitksan tribes) as to whether Wistis  11 had the right to erect a pole which  12 Hlengwarh claimed was his.  The question was  13 submitted to the Indian agent at Hazelton  14 who refused to have anything to do with it."  15  16 Now, were you aware of that dispute over that  17 crest and the right to erect a pole other than from  18 this adaawk?  19 A   If I'm not mistaken it also comes up at the feast  20 in -- see here's another example of this not being an  21 adaawk.  This is William Beynon's knowledge, and I  22 think he's referring to the time when he reported the  23 several days of feasting in Gitsegyukla.  24 Q   So this one isn't an adaawk.  This is just a record of  25 something that happened?  26 A  Well, it says right at the top "Information recorded  27 by William Beynon, in 1952."  28 Q   Well, Beynon -- wasn't Beynon a Tsimsyan?  29 A   If you read the whole thing that he's giving an  30 account of the dispute, and then he puts his own note  31 of another discussion that he has with someone else.  32 It's a compilation of information that Beynon has  33 acquired.  34 Q   Now, if you turn to 54, 1048-54, it's entitled the  35 "Origin of Gitwinhlkul", spelled  36 G-I-T-W-I-N-H-L-K-U-L.  Is this an adaawk?  37 A   Yes.  And you have the Beynon note at the top.  38 Q   All right.  And it's -- the Beynon note at the top is:  39  40 "For sometime there's been a controversy as  41 to the rights of certain Kanhada  42 (Raven-Frog) and Larhkibu (Wolf), originally  43 from Gitwinhlkul, but who have through  44 marriage moved away from there.  Those  45 remaining at Gitwinhlkul have challenged the  46 rights of those moving away, to go to their  47 former hunting and trapping territories of 17364  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Meziaden lake (north of the Nass River).  It  2 has developed considerable feeling and was  3 brought to the officers of the Native  4 Brotherhood who have been asked to act in  5 the matter.  This organization does not  6 possess the authority to take any part in  7 the dispute.  Nonetheless the parties have  8 aired their claims, each trying to establish  9 their rights.  The writer (Beynon) heard all  10 sides and made records of these, first to  11 present their claims through Mr. Fred  12 Johnson, informant above, who relates what  13 was the origin of Gitwinhlkul."  14  15 That's Beynon speaking and then the origin starts  16 from there?  17 A   Yes, that's my understanding of it.  18 Q   All right.  And just pausing there.  Are you aware of  19 any other information about -- the previous adaawk had  20 something being referred to the Indian agent to  21 resolve, and this has something being sent to the  22 native brotherhood to resolve.  Are these frequent  23 throughout the adaawks here and there, or throughout  24 the Beynon records?  25 A   No.  You've managed to hit on quite a few of them.  26 Q   Now, if we go to page four of the Gitwinhlkul you'll  27 see a reference at the bottom of the page to what the  28 informant Fred Johnson went on to say, and I'll  29 just -- if you move down to the fifth line up from the  30 bottom the sentence:  31  32 "'In fact there is a Gitwinhlkul family who  33 first moved to Gitwanrarh, then to Stewart,  34 at the head of Portland Canal, so that they  35 could take the short trail to Meziadin Lake,  36 via the glacier behind Stewart.  Their  37 rights are a constant source of dispute, yet  38 they are of the family of Kam'naerh'yaeltk,  39 a Kanhada chief of Gitwinhlkul.  But this  40 family's had the foresight to register his  41 rights to trap and hunt in that area through  42 the proper channels, and also he has met all  43 his tribal obligations at Gitwinhlkul, so  44 that none can overrule his claim, though  45 disputing it.  There are many others, but,  46 while some serious disputes have taken  47 place, and growing still, now that there is 17365  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 a demand for timber property, many of the  2 people are taking timber rights, whether the  3 grounds are theirs is hereditarily or not.  4 This is bringing more complainings from  5 those whose hunting areas thus being  6 invaded.  To further complicate matters,  7 intermarriage has become so that all in the  8 tribe are more or less related to one  9 another.'"  10  11 You'll see that the quote marks stop there.  So  12 that's Fred Johnson speaking.  You recognize that?  13 A   It starts that paragraph "Informant Fred Johnson went  14 on to say".  15 Q   All right.  At the time he's speaking this Fred  16 Johnson is Lealt.  You'll see that from the very first  17 page.  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Yes.  20 MR. GRANT:  My lord should note that Fred Johnson, one of the  21 witnesses on commission, is now deceased.  That was  22 not put to him in cross-examination.  23 MR. WILLMS:  24 Q   And who -- if you turn to the bottom of page four.  25 Ms. Marsden, are you on page four at tab 54?  26 A   I think so.  27 Q   Who is the Kanhada chief of Gitwinhlkul?  Do you know  28 what that name is there?  2 9 K-A-M-'-N-A-E-R-H-'-Y-A-E-L-T-K.  30 A   That's Kam'naerh'yaeltk.  31 Q   Is that Solomon Marsden?  32 A   Yes.  But I don't know if he was Kam'naerh'yaeltk at  33 this point in time.  I don't --53.  I don't know when  34 he took the name Kam'naerh'yaeltk.  35 THE COURT:  What do you think he means by Gitwanrarh?  36 A   Oh, the G-I-T-W-A-N-R-A-R-H?  37 THE COURT:  Yes.  38 A   That's Kitwanga.  39 MR. GRANT:  That's spelled like that quite a bit through these  40 versions, my lord.  41 MR. WILLMS:  42 Q   Can you turn to 55, which is the next one.  "The  43 Origins of the Gitwinhlkul Tribe".  This one, would  44 you call this one an adaawk?  45 A   It's not a matter of whether I'd call them an adaawk.  46 William Beynon had a way of putting them in and when  47 he was making his own comments he puts it in 17366  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 differently.  This is how he identified an adaawk, and  2 I know -- that's good enough.  3 Q   And the very first line, "Gitwinhlkul was one of the  4 oldest villages, established before the Deluge."  5 That's before the flood?  6 A   That's the way -- that's what he means by deluge, yes.  7 Q   But the deluge is something you say you can't really  8 date?  9 A   It indicates antiquity.  They wouldn't use it for  10 something recent.  11 Q   All right.  If you look down on that very first page,  12 it may be hard to find, but it's about ten lines up  13 from the bottom, you'll see there is a phrase right in  14 the middle about ten or 11 lines up.  "They owned many  15 copper shields."  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Now, so once again because of your view of copper  18 shields that wasn't an indicator to you whether this  19 is a recent or an old adaawk?  20 A  Well, as you saw in the case of the Saluh (phonetic),  21 in that adaawk the sale is referred to there, probably  22 two or three others where a sale is referred to in the  23 whole body of adaawk, and probably two of them are  24 recent.  In the case of moose, for example, as you  25 mentioned previously, moose are referred to again and  26 again.  The contemporary information about moose just  27 didn't jibe with the fact that couldn't explain them  28 referring to moose by saying that it was an exception.  29 And copper shields is the same.  Copper shields as  30 Beynon said go back as far as the stories.  31 Q   Now, there is a story described in the adaawk, and  32 they come to the name Gitwinhlkul on page four, and I  33 just want to put -- it's page four of tab 55.  And  34 you'll see there's a paragraph starting at the top of  35 the page and it's ending the discussion of the  36 migrations, and then the last two lines of that  37 paragraph:  38  39 "They had now arrived at their village of  4 0 Git'anyaao where they became very numerous.  41 Then they called this village Gitwinhlkul,  42 People-of-narrow-village, because it is a  43 narrow village, much smaller than the  44 original one."  45  46 A   Oh, okay.  47 Q   Sorry. 17367  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  A  2  Q  3  4  MR. GRANT  5  MR. WILLM  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  THE COURT  47  Sorry.  I was on the wrong page.  Though the last two lines in that paragraph starting  at the top --  :  I've indicated it to her.  Now, is that -- is it your understanding that that's  the description of how the village was named?  No.  No?  No.  Is this inaccurate?  In analyzing the adaawk I look at all of them and if  one is different from the others, the same with the  statements of origins and the villages, if there are  five people that say one thing and one or two that say  another the weight of the evidence goes towards the  one that the five that say the one thing.  In this  case the Gitwinhlkul people again and again say that  after their wars they changed the name of their  village.  They say that nowadays, and they say that in  their adaawk.  Because right after where it says in this adaawk that  they arrived at a village where they became numerous  and then they called this village Gitwinhlkul, the  next paragraph starts off:  "Many years later, that is in recent times,  there was a plague which was called the  Hayahlilarhae, Plague-of-Smallpox.  It  carried off many of the people."  If you go back actually what she said is she's  accounted for once again an incredible time span, and  then she says, "They had now arrived at their village  of Git'anyaao where they became very numerous.  Then  they called this village Gitwinhlkul", then meaning  next.  Yes.  And then many years later again.  Yeah.  Okay.  And then your question?  Between Gitwinhlkul and smallpox is the time depth of  many years later?  Yes.  Right.  Okay.  :  But after that it says, "the survivors were invaded  by the Gitsalas."  Were invasions taking place after 1736?  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  A  3  THE  COURT:  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  MR.  WILLMS  15  Q  16  A  17  18  19  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  25  26  27  Q  28  THE  COURT:  29  A  30  THE  COURT:  31  A  32  MR.  GRANT:  33  A  34  35  36  MR.  WILLMS  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  the onset of smallpox?  Can I just read this for a moment, please?  Yes.  I wouldn't say this was smallpox.  In fact if you see  the question mark after that for the translation there  are a number of plagues recorded in the oral histories  that are described in a variety of ways.  They're not  always this term.  There's another term that I -- I've  seen that isn't the same as this that they said it's a  plague like smallpox.  And there was -- when the frog  clan was across from -- from Temlaxham there's an  account of the plague, and again in several other  events.  What disease like smallpox is it; do you know?  I think it was spelt H-Y-K-S-I-L-A-S.  It took place  at Kitselas.  It's in the time period when it could  have been smallpox, but it wasn't translated that way.  Okay.  Could you go to the next tab, tab 56, "Origin  of Family of Lurhawn".  L-U-R-H-A-W-N.  This is a  discussion of the origin of the houses.  Was this, in  your view, describing ancient events or recent events?  Well, this -- there's a strange thing happening with  this in the next one.  The next one is the beginning  and for some reason this is the end.  You can see it's  the same informant.  Okay.  Is that L-U-R-H-A-W-N?  Oh, sorry.  Yes.  H-A-W-N in the text here, yes.  It starts L-U-R, does it?  Yes.  That's Lurhawn, my lord, Gitwinhlkul chief.  If you look at the next one, the next one is 21 pages  long and then this is the final -- the final events  that he's recounting in that.  All right.  In this particular one the final events  are being recounted in 56 and the original events in  57, is that --  The sequence, if you put 57 ahead of 56 you get a  chronological sequence.  Okay.  Now, you'll agree with me that references in  adaawk to smoking leafed tobacco, that's historic.  That's a historic event, smoking leafed tobacco?  Could you show that to me?  Page two.  If you go down to the middle of the page just below  the three whole punch you'll see a sentence: 17369  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  15  Q  16  MR.  GRANT:  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  MR.  WILLMS  23  Q  24  A  25  26  THE  COURT:  27  A  28  THE  COURT:  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  35  MR.  GRANT:  36  37  38  39  MR.  WILLMS  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  "In the pack which these brothers brought  from the Nass, they had leafed a tobacco  (mi'yaen: to smoke)."  No, they're not referring to cigarettes there.  They're referring to -- they had various herbs, one of  which was Labrador tea, if I'm not mistaken, that  they -- the smoking process was the burning of  something to create smoke, and they used it to bring  good luck.  And in this case he's referring to a plant  that they had.  So you don't think it's smoking tobacco?  I think they intended to use it in their peace  ceremony.  Would you like me to --  Because --  Just let -- she's just checking something.  Well, mi'yaen is referring to the process of smoking.  And the object I'm really -- I really wouldn't want to  make a conclusion one way or another from this.  That  would be my assumption.  However, I think this adaawk  probably takes place after the first trade anyway.  All right.  But they used smoking herbs in their peace ceremonies,  and that is where they're headed in this adaawk.  What are you saying this word M-I-'-Y-A-E-N means?  It means smoke or to smoke.  Mi'yaen.  As in cigarettes?  No.  No.  It means like smoke.  And if you're smoking  something -- like they have the roots of plants that  they use for good luck and they light the plant and it  smokes, but when cigarettes came they transferred that  term, and they do use it nowadays to mean to smoke a  cigarette, but it antedates cigarettes.  My lord, the witness was indicating a smoking  gesture such as in smoking berries or something like  that.  I think she said smoking, but I think that was  being indicated.  :  I thank my friend for helping me with smoke.  Then you note, for example, at the end, and I think  you refer to after the Europeans came there are guns  referred to in the end of this adaawk?  Could you show me where that is, please?  Yeah.  At page four, about the middle of the page on  the page:  "The Tsetsaut had traded all they had in 17370  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 furs and purchased the guns and firearms of  2 the Nass people."  3  4 So, at any event, by the end of the adaawk you'll  5 agree that we're in historic times?  6 A  Well, this is the -- this is the final wars with the  7 Tsetsaut that I was referring to yesterday that I  8 don't feel could end any later than 1860.  That I  9 don't -- I concluded end prior to 1860.  10 Q   Now, the next one, and you did describe 57 I think in  11 your evidence in chief, did you, the "Origins of  12 Lurhawn in the Groundhog Country"?  13 A   I dealt with part of this adaawk, yes.  14 Q   And if you turn to page ten, you'll see the paragraph:  15  16 "After many years of wandering, they arrived  17 at the present site of Gitwinhlkul.  I am  18 not sure myself who were the first to come  19 there, whether it was us or Weerhae or  20 Kamlarhyaelk.  At that time, they had not  21 yet left their own village on the Nass, but  22 they had wandered round, until they ended at  23 Gitwinhlkul.  Some of them stayed at  24 Gitwinhlkul and others went backwards and  25 forward to other Nass villages.  At one  26 place particularly, Kamlarhyaelk used to get  27 his moose."  28  29 That wasn't a hint to you, the word moose, that  30 this is sometime in the 1800's?  31 A   No.  32 Q   No.  Over to page 19 just before the part on the Raid  33 in Retaliation on the Tsetsaut you'll see the line  34 four lines up from the Raid in Retaliation:  "They  35 supplied all the warriors with mocassins made from  36 moose hides."  We've also heard evidence from -- in  37 this trial that prior to about 1820 that moose hides  38 were very, very valuable and scarce in this area.  39 Were you aware of that?  40 A  When I was doing research prior to the working at  41 tribal council I was told that the Gitksan used hide  42 clothing in the wintertime.  That that's how they  43 dressed.  That was their pre-contact form of dress.  44 Q   That's what — who told you that?  45 A  Actually, I think it was Solomon.  46 Q   All right.  And you accepted that, of course?  47 A  Well, they had to wear something. 17371  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   Now, the next one I'd like you to turn to is 61,  2 1048-61, "A Kanhada Migration to the Niskae Country".  3 That's K-A-N-H-A-D-A, and Nishga is spelled  4 N-I-S-K-A-E.  Oops, wrong one.  Could you go to 62,  5 please.  Now, this is "'Ahlawals Family at Angyedae".  6 Do you know what that is?  7 A   I'm familiar with that term, that chief's name  8 'Ahlawals.  9 Q   And where is that?  10 A  Well, Angyedae was at the mouth of the Nass.  11 Q   And that's —  12 A   That name comes up in other -- in other houses among  13 the Tsimsyans also.  14 Q   And do you recall an adaawk where a person's head was  15 cut off and put on a pole?  16 A  Well, another one.  17 Q   No.  Is this the only one?  18 A  Well, no.  That wasn't -- that occurs in a number of  19 adaawk, the head on the pole.  20 Q   That's not the same adaawk though.  They're different  21 adaawks?  22 A  Well, this isn't one I'm terribly familiar with, so.  23 Q   Okay.  24 A   I'll just read it here.  Okay.  Your question is what?  25 Q   Are there a number -- I thought there was just one,  26 but there's a number of adaawks where heads are put on  27 poles?  28 A  Well, not -- it's not something I've tabulated, and  29 it's not something I haven't seen elsewhere.  30 Q   I just was wondering, because this one had a reference  31 to gun in it which would make it historic, but if  32 there are different ones then --.  33 Ms. Marsden, one thing, and I'll stop now although  34 I've got more here on this one, as you go through the  35 Barbeau Beynon materials, as we've gone through, there  36 are items in adaawks surrounded by other adaawks,  37 items in them which you can date, either references at  38 the beginning of the adaawk to the Hudson's Bay  39 Company or to government, to Indian agent, to native  40 brotherhood, references to guns, I've suggested moose  41 hides, but I think you think that's problematic, I've  42 suggested copper shields, I think you've suggested  43 that may be problematic, red hair, but there are  44 numerous items or signals to you that might indicate a  45 historic date; correct?  46 A   Oh, there are quite a large number of adaawk,  47 actually, that are -- that are certainly in the 17372  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 proto-historic period.  2 Q   And historic?  3 A  And historic, yes.  4 Q   And in fact the adaawks --  5 A   Yeah, go ahead.  6 Q   At the end —  7 MR. GRANT:  Just before my friend -- I didn't want to interrupt  8 the question and answer, my lord, but there's no  9 adaawk that Mr. Willms has put to the witness in which  10 there is references to government or Native Indian  11 Brotherhood.  There were those two notations of  12 Beynon, but the witness explained that neither of  13 those were adaawk.  I just want to be clear, for the  14 record, my friend has lumped them together, but it was  15 clear in the evidence those two were not adaawk.  16 MR. WILLMS:  Well, I stand corrected by my friend.  When the  17 evidence went in I thought these were all adaawks, and  18 it does appear you have got to go through.  19 Q   Is that what you have to do, Ms. Marsden, you have to  20 go through and decide this is adaawk and this one  21 isn't, is this what you did?  22 A  As I said when you pointed it out the first time that  23 it's not a very common occurrence in the adaawk, and  24 you've come up with a couple.  25 Q   But —  26 A   I would say -- I wouldn't want to be specific, but I  27 wouldn't say there were more than ten in the four  2 8 volumes.  29 Q   More than -- pardon me?  30 A  More than ten accounts in this true narratives section  31 that are comments by Beynon.  32 Q   Oh, all right.  I thought you've said that were  33 historic?  34 A   No.  35 Q   No.  There are many, many more than ten that are  36 historic?  37 A   Yeah.  I have to be careful with your use of the word  38 historic, I think, because post-contact and  39 proto-historic is post-influence in terms of the trade  40 without actual contact.  41 Q   Now, when you collected and organized the adaawks did  42 you set these adaawks aside so that you could analyze  43 the proto-historic and historic period in detail?  44 A  What I understood was going to happen was that -- that  45 those people working with the -- working in the area  46 of the post-contact and proto-historic period would  47 also address the adaawk and so I dealt with the ones 17373  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 prior to contact primarily, and then after my report  2 was finished, and after I had finished working at  3 tribal council, it became apparent that the adaawk  4 were not being analyzed by the historians and since  5 then on my own out of interest I've started to do  6 readings in the historical record, and I'm working on  7 that now just as part of my own.  8 Q   Right.  And in your readings on the historical record  9 have you, for example, dealing with the disputes, the  10 Nishga wars with the Tsetsaut that have taken place in  11 historic times, have you linked that in with  12 historical records to see whether or not they are  13 accurate or not?  14 A   The Nishga wars with the Tsetsaut are there historical  15 records about those?  16 Q   You haven't found any.  How about any records.  Have  17 you looked at Hudson's Bay records say from Fort  18 Connelly about disputes around Bear Lake?  19 A   I don't think there are any records about the Wilitsxu  20 war.  I don't think there was a white presence in the  21 area at the time as far as Connelly is concerned.  I  22 know that there were other researchers addressing  23 that.  24 THE COURT:  How much longer do you want to sit, Mr. Willms?  25 MR. WILLMS:  Well, we could sit until five, my lord, if that's  26 agreeable.  27 MR. GRANT:  I may want -- I'm not sure if you intended to take a  28 break.  29 THE COURT:  I have to take a short break to look after something  30 that I'm committed to, but I'll just be a very few  31 moments.  We'll take a short adjournment and sit until  32 five.  33 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned.  34  35 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS)  36  37 THE COURT:  Mr. Willms.  38 MR. WILLMS:  My lord.  I think, my lord, that I wouldn't be  39 referring to 1048 again, save and except that I know  40 that it's the back of this that my friend wants to  41 take out, and what I suggest is we just leave it in  42 for now and I'll bring over some binders tomorrow and  43 we can put them in a different exhibit.  44 THE COURT:  All right.  All right.  45 MR. GRANT:  I would just ask if my friend's finished with that  46 that I -- I believe that this, aside from the stamp on  47 the top, the 1048 and 1049 which Mr. Macaulay arranged 17374  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 to bring over could replace them in the front part of  2 1048 because of the photocopying problem there.  3 THE COURT:  I'm not sure that I follow that.  4 MR. GRANT:  Apparently Madam Registrar has done it.  I will say  5 nothing more.  My lord was unaware.  It's all been  6 replaced.  7 THE COURT:  Thank you.  8 MR. GRANT:  Mr. Macaulay's looking at some of his papers.  9 THE COURT:  Included a draft —  10 MR. WILLMS:  11 Q   Ms. Marsden, I'm showing you "Totem Poles" by Marius  12 Barbeau.  This is one of the reference works by  13 Barbeau that you relied on.  It's in your reference  14 text.  15 A   I didn't rely on this.  This was one -- it's a classic  16 in its field.  I worked with the original information  17 once I had it.  I'm familiar with this.  18 MR. WILLMS:  All right.  And, my lord, I have to apologize for  19 the notes on the top of the one that has been handed  20 up with some scribbling.  This is already marked at  21 847-15, which is, I think, Ms. Albright.  It's been  22 marked with Dr. Daly as well 849-27, but it's more  23 convenient, I find, to mark it again --  2 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  25 MR. WILLMS:  -- Rather than to try and dig the exhibit out, so  26 could this be 1051-13.  2 7 THE COURT:  Yes.  28  29 (EXHIBIT 1051-13:  Article - Totem Poles)  30  31 MR. WILLMS:  32 Q   Now, if you turn to page nine of this, you know that  33 in addition to looking and collecting information of  34 the adaawks either directly with an interpreter or  35 through Beynon Barbeau was also collecting detailed  36 information on the totem poles and the poles of the  37 Pacific Northwest?  38 A   He made a very accurate record as part of the -- his  39 files of the crests on the poles that were in  40 existence at the time, and also a photographic record  41 which is extremely extensive.  42 Q   Now, you know that Dr. Barbeau concluded that the  43 custom of carving and erecting free standing poles was  44 relatively modern?  45 A   Yes, I'm familiar with the fact that that was his  46 opinion.  47 Q   That was his opinion -- and that was his opinion. 17375  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 And, of course, if Dr. Barbeau was right that would  2 help date any adaawk in which a free standing pole is  3 mentioned.  So that if you had an adaawk, and there  4 are adaawks which mention the erection of a free  5 standing pole whether it be a mortuary pole or  6 something else, if Dr. Barbeau is right that would be  7 a clue that the events taking place in the adaawk are  8 in the relatively recent period of time?  9 A   It would be a factor to take into consideration, but I  10 have to keep repeating that these items -- these  11 particular references within an adaawk are not the  12 primary method of putting them in order that I use.  13 But, you know, in answer to your question, yes.  If  14 you were able to prove that it would be an indication  15 that one might take into consideration.  16 MR. WILLMS:  Okay.  Now, could Exhibit 1053 be put before the  17 witness.  18 MR. GRANT:  Which one?  19 MR. WILLMS:  1053.  It's the blue binder.  20 Q   And you gave evidence earlier that Dr. Duff was  21 organizing or trying to chronologize the adaawk?  22 A   Internally.  23 Q   Internally.  Yes.  Now, at the very beginning of 1053  24 before tab 1 there is a portion, and it's after the  25 pink divider, entitled "The Gwenhoot of Alaska - In  26 Search of a Bounteous Land" by Marius Barbeau, and the  27 acknowledgement page and presentation page of forward,  28 and then the index.  You recognize that material as  29 being the first material that Dr. Barbeau had in the  30 Gwenhoot of Alaska.  That comes at the beginning and  31 then is followed by the other material.  32 A  Well, it's here, yes.  33 Q   Yes.  And if you just look to the page,  34 acknowledgement page, and at the bottom it's dated  35 Ottawa, December 26, 1959, you'll see that Dr. Barbeau  36 acknowledges -- the last acknowledgement is:  37  38 "To the ethnologist Wilson Duff who, during  39 the past year (1958-59), has worked with me  40 at my voluminous Tsimsyan materials and  41 frequently exchanged views with me on the  42 many problems confronting us; his especial  43 share being the social organization and  44 human geography, while my own has been the  45 history of the Gwenhoot according to their  4 6 adaorh."  47 17376  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Did you know that Dr. Duff had helped Dr. Barbeau  2 in putting together the Gwenhoot?  3 A   Isn't this the year that he spent doing his files,  4 1958-59?  I think that's what he's referring to.  I  5 know that Barbeau wanted Duff to take over his work  6 and publish the adaawk.  I've read that that was  7 Duff's intention for awhile, but he never did do that.  8 Q   All right.  I just -- did you know that it appears  9 from the acknowledgement that Dr. Duff collaborated,  10 at least in part, with Dr. Barbeau in the work on the  11 Gwenhoot?  I was just wondering if you were aware of  12 that.  13 A  Well, I'm not sure that it says that.  He says, "His  14 especial share being the social organization and human  15 geography, while my own has been the history".  16 Inasmuch as he contributed the knowledge of social  17 organization, I imagine this was during the year that  18 he was working there on his Canada Council Grant, and  19 he assisted Barbeau at that time.  20 Q   And then if you just turn to the index what -- if you  21 can just describe Part I "Siberian Migrations into  22 America" and what is itemized underneath that.  Those  23 are all Dr. Barbeau pulling together the information  24 from the adaawk.  It's his interpretation of the  25 adaawk?  26 A   Yes.  This is what I was referring to when I said Part  27 II isn't always the adaawk in the original form.  28 Q   Right.  But let's just deal with Part I.  First of  29 all, Part I is much like Part I of Raven Clan Outlaws  30 where he's trying to -- and Wolf Clan Invaders where  31 he's trying to chronologize the adaawk that follow?  32 A   That's where he places his theory, yes, in the first  33 part.  34 Q   Now, in Gwenhoot he also has a second part which  35 although it's entitled "The Adaorh or True Tradition  36 of the Tsimsyan" what they really are is he's trying  37 to take a particular event from a number of adaawks  38 and put them into a single story.  You understood that  39 when you reviewed this?  40 A   Yes.  He sometimes seems to be just using one original  41 version and then at other times he seems to mix in  42 other information under the same title.  That's why  43 I -- well, I chose to use the originals, because  44 that's what a person doing research does.  You work  45 with the most original material you have.  But in  46 referring to his I found that I couldn't always  47 identify exactly where he got his information from. 17377  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  MR.  WILLMS  13  14  15  THE  COURT:  16  MR.  WILLMS  17  MR.  GRANT:  18  MR.  WILLMS  19  THE  COURT:  20  MR.  WILLMS  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  Okay.  It was a real weaving together.  And then in Part III, which if you turn to page seven  Part III does list the adaawks that were actually  recorded by either Barbeau or Beynon?  Well, again, this Part III refers to his -- his  published versions which are are definitely edited by  Barbeau, and then you get to page nine, "Narratives  reproduced here verbatim", and it starts 28, and  that's when you get back to the original form of the  adaawk.  :  All right.  And that, my lord, just for your  information, that part does start in my friend's  Exhibit 1046.  M'hm.  :  And perhaps we can just turn to 1046 briefly.  It's the red --  :  And tab 33.  Yes.  The "Gitrhawn Trading Privileges on the Upper Skeena".  Do you have that, Ms. Marsden?  Yes.  I see that the informant is Harriet Hudson of the  Gitsalas tribe.  Is she any relation to Agnus, or do  you know?  I'm not sure .  Now, it starts off:  "Ages ago the Gitsalas (Gyitselaeser) tribe  was the uppermost on the Skeena River.  Its  home village was situated at the canyon  (tselaeser).  These people (of the Tsimsyan  Proper) did not know of any other people  above them on the river, and although their  hunters went a considerate distance  upstream, they never found any other folk  living there."  Now, by that reference to Gitsalas does that help  you date the time frame of this adaawk, a time frame  when there was nobody up river from Gitsalas or  Kitselas?  Does that statement, the first statement, help me to  date it, did you say?  Yes.  It appears to refer to a time where there are no  villages further up the Skeena from Kitselas, and so 1737?  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 my question is does that help you -- I mean, do you  2 know what time that would be, a time when there was  3 nothing up the Skeena from Kitselas?  4 A   No.  In fact I think she's referring to the fact that  5 there wasn't a great deal of interaction with them.  6 Q   So you don't -- when you see the words "although their  7 hunters went a considerate distance upstream they  8 never found any other folk living there", you read  9 that as being any other folk that they had interaction  10 with?  11 A  Well, I don't just read parts of the adaawk.  I fit  12 the information of the adaawk into the context.  In  13 this context, yes, it indicates that they were not --  14 that they had not -- that they were not interacting  15 frequently, that it was not part of their culture at  16 that time to be going and visiting and feasting  17 together and doing what people did when they were  18 linked at a later date.  19 Q   Or trading?  20 A   That's right.  21 Q   And what time frame would that be from the rest of the  22 contextualizing the other adaawks?  23 A   In this adaawk it once again covers a time span.  Most  24 of the adaawk have at least two or three time periods  25 in them and they, as I've said again and again, from  26 one paragraph to the next they talk about major  27 events, and this one talks about the instituting of  28 trade privileges, and then it goes on to talk about a  2 9              more recent event.  30 Q   Okay.  But do you -- maybe you don't have a date for  31 the time when there wasn't any trading above Kitselas.  32 Is that fair, you just don't know when that time might  33 have been?  34 A  Well, I think I gave in my evidence that after  35 Kitselas became a significant village, and they -- it  36 was after that that trade began, and they destroyed  37 the beaver dam and it was after that that trade became  38 an important factor.  39 Q   Yeah, but Kitselas wasn't there before that happened,  40 was it?  I thought they moved down to Kitselas and  41 destroyed the dam.  That's the time when there was  42 nobody up river from them.  43 A   There were always people up river from them.  4 4 Q   Oh.  45 A   It's just that they didn't interact with them.  And  46 then she says, "There were a great many Gitsalasu, who  47 made two villages, one on each side of the canyon." 17379  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  So that's once they're established there and Gitrhawn,  who has come up from the Haida, is established there.  And the adaawk goes on to talk about how a woman  strays and encounters the people in the Kitwanga area,  'cause it's not Kitwanga at this time.  And then  through the alliance between this woman and the  Gitsalas that is how Gitrhawn gets trading privileges,  which goes on for a long time after that.  Q   And that's -- for example, on page four of the adaawk  says in that paragraph:  "Gitrhawn had now come upon a very valuable  trading privilege.  It was well protected,  as his own village was situated on the  canyon through which any canoe going up  would have to pass."  So —  MR. GRANT:  Which page is that?  MR. WILLMS:  Page four.  Q   So this is where he gets the trading privileges up the  Skeena above Kitselas?  A   On the lower Skeena, yes.  Q   Now, if you go down to the middle of the page you'll  see:  "Legyaerh, the Eagle chief of the  Gisparhlaw'ts, was very envious of Gitrhawn  who was now growing very wealthy by having  control of the trading privilege with the  upper Skeena tribes of the Gitksan, and  Guhlraerh, who was of the Legyaerh group,  now wanted to assist his uncle Legyaerh to  overcome Gitrhawn, who was becoming too  powerful, while he fellow Larhskeeks, also  chiefs, did not enjoy the privilege of  trading with the Gitksan villages.  During  this period Legyaerh had become the most  powerful chief among the Tsimsyan."  Just pausing there.  Do you know what period that  would be?  Can you put a date on that period?  A  Well, between the establishment of the trading  privilege of Gitrhawn.  This is misleading, this  sentence here, and you have to -- you have to --  Legyaerh -- Legyaerh's acquisition of trading  privileges with the upper Skeena came after Gitrhawn's 17380  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 trading privileges with the lower Skeena.  She's moved  2 on to a new -- she's set the scene with Kitselas being  3 a major village.  She's established the fact that  4 Gitrhawn had trading privileges.  Now she's saying  5 Legyaerh was envious of those trading privileges he  6 wanted.  Unfortunately she stated it that way.  The  7 way it worked is Legyaerh was jealous of trading  8 privileges and wanted to cut through the Gitsalas and  9 take trading privileges on the upper Skeena.  10 Q   Yeah.  And that's -- what period is that?  "During  11 this period Legyaerh had become the most powerful  12 chief among the Tsimsyan."  13 A   That's the period that I was indicating yesterday at  14 the beginning of the Wars of Madiik, but it spanned --  15 Legyaerh's attempt to control the trade above Kitselas  16 took place over a long period of time, and there were  17 a number of different events that took place.  18 Q   See, if you look on page four it describes Legyaerh  19 being envious and planning a raid on the canyon  20 fortress, and you'll see over on to the top of page  21 five that they carried out the raid and lost and had  22 to retreat.  23 A   Yes.  In Wars of Madiik the series of events that  24 takes place is laid out a lot more -- all the  25 incidents, or more of the incidents are included, but  26 this refers to the one -- the first incident that the  27 Gitsalas won.  I'd like to read this for a moment,  28 please.  There seem to be a number of events referred  29 to by this informant that are somewhat intertwined.  30 She's covering quite a number, so.  31 Q   But you'll agree with me that she ends with the first  32 Legyaerh being killed in an attack on Kitselas on page  33 five, and ends that particular attack with the  34 sentence:  35  36 "Now the surviving Gisparhlaw'ts escaped to  37 their village away below the canyon and for  38 a long while, did not retaliate, but they  39 planned for retaliation."  40  41 And then:  42  43 "Many years later, now that a new Legyaerh  44 was chief of the Gisparhlaw'ts, he wanted to  45 overcome the Gitsalas, and again have the  46 privilege of trading with the upper Skeena  47 tribes and also the Hagwelgyet tribes." 17381  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Just pausing there, you know from the historic  2 record that -- that the succession of Legyaerh that --  3 after Legyaerh won, or a Legyaerh in the 1800's died  4 another Legyaerh took over that ended up being a very  5 powerful Legyaerh in the 1830's, or did you know that?  6 A   The -- in 1831 when the fort was at the Nass there  7 was -- it was Legyaerh that encouraged the Hudson's  8 Bay Company -- his daughter was already married to Dr.  9 Kennedy at that time and it was Legyaerh that  10 encouraged them to move to Fort Simpson so the  11 Tsimsyan would have control of the Hudson's Bay  12 Company.  That Legyaerh, in my understanding, precedes  13 the one who later attacked the Kispiox, or at least --  14 if he isn't the one who attacked the Kispiox he's  15 certainly not the one that was converted.  So there's  16 two there in the -- in the post-contact period that  17 are dealt with in the adaawk.  At least two.  But  18 there are many before that.  I mean, there are adaawk  19 that referred to Legyaerh being ten back as being a  20 recent Legyaerh.  21 Q   Just dealing here you'll see that it starts a new  22 Legyaerh who wants to overcome the Gitsalas, and then  23 talks about trading with the Hagwilget and Skeena  24 tribes.  25  26 "It was from these people that the most  27 important skins or hides of moose and  28 cariboo were obtained."  29  30 And then it carries on to describe a surprise  31 attack on the Gitsalas village and destruction of it,  32 and then it carries on with the dispute between  33 Legyaerh and Gitrhawn.  But I don't see another  34 Legyaerh coming in before the end of --  35 A   This is a —  3 6 Q   Adaawk?  37 A   This is one of the less -- when I described in my  38 evidence that some adaawk are easier to use than  39 others in the sense that they -- some of them tend  40 to -- kind of do have -- tail a lot of information  41 from different events together, and I'd have to take  42 this and analyze it carefully, but if you have --  43 Q   See the very last --  44 MR. GRANT:  Just —  45 A   By the end of it we're in the incident at Kitwanga.  4 6 Then I would have to move back from that.  That's the  47 time span covered by this adaawk, from the beginning 17382  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 of trade to the incident at Kitwanga where I don't  2 know if she refers to, but where they ease  3 hostilities.  4 Q   If you go to page nine, the last page of the adaawk,  5 it ends with this:  6  7 "Thus it was that Legyaerh was able to begin  8 his trading, and later he even ousted the  9 Gitsalas from any great business, these  10 seldom going farther up than Gitwengaerh,  11 and the Git'winhlkool.  In each of these  12 villages some of the Gitsalas had become  13 established, so that they did not interfere  14 with Legyaerh, who established himself up to  15 the Hagwelgyet tribe.  There was no further  16 trouble between the Gitsalas and the  17 Gisparhlaw'ts."  18  19 You're aware, are you not, in 1836 Legyaerh after  20 an attack and a commendation, in effect, subdued the  21 Gitsalas people in respect of trading?  22 A  Well, as he says here, he ousted the Gitsalas from any  23 great business, these seldom going further up than  24 Gitwengaerh and Git'winhlkool.  And those -- the  25 Gitsalas retained their trading privileges at  26 Kitwanga.  That's why this informant refers in the  27 beginning to the origin of the Gitsalas trading  28 privileges of Gitrhawn, and then she ends with  29 explaining that -- that Legyaerh got the up river  30 ones.  And that is -- that is the time period at the  31 end of this account that I was discussing yesterday.  32 Q   Right.  And that time period -- this time period where  33 Legyaerh ousts the Gitsalas is 1836?  34 A   Exactly 1836?  35 Q   I'm suggesting that it's 1836, yes.  36 A  Well, that's feasible, yes.  37 Q   All right.  So what you need to do to date this  38 adaawk -- a good way to date it would be to start with  39 1836 and then work backwards and put time into it as  40 the adaawk requires; is that fair?  41 A   No.  That -- I do not take one adaawk after another  42 and date the adaawk inside of themselves.  I look at  43 all of the accounts of each event, and I use all of  44 those sources combined with the statements of the  45 village origins.  It's a massive amount of material,  46 and I did it very carefully for each time period, and  47 where -- if it was very clearly stated, very neatly in 17383  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 every single adaawk it wouldn't have taken me as long  2 to do it.  And there are clearly stated adaawk and  3 there are fairly jumbled adaawk and it's the  4 culmination of the analysis of all of them that allows  5 me to put them in chronological order.  And these  6 events are to a certain extent in chronological order.  7 I'm not able to deal with the middle section now  8 unless you want me to take some time, but she begins  9 stating that Gitrhawn established trading privileges  10 on the upper Skeena, that Gitsalas controlled the  11 canyon, and that Legyaerh rose to power and was  12 jealous, he made war and he acquired trading  13 privileges on the upper Skeena, and those flowered  14 during the period at Fort Simpson.  And that is what  15 that adaawk deals with.  16 Q   All right.  My only question was so it's not  17 appropriate once you find a historic date in an  18 adaawk -- as far as you're concerned, it's not  19 appropriate to work forwards and backwards from that  20 historic date to try and date what's going on?  21 A  Well, certainly if you have -- that's a hypothetical  22 question.  23 Q   Well, it's not hypothetical here.  I mean, you've got  24 the date at the end.  It's 1836.  Why can't you just  25 work backwards?  And you've said it's chronological,  26 Legyaerh's trading privileges at Kitselas.  27 A   In the case of this adaawk.  28 Q   Legyaerh tries to get Kitselas and loses the battle,  29 then the next Legyaerh by 1836 established himself.  30 Can't you look at the adaawk and look at the words on  31 the adaawk like many years later or a long time past  32 and try to put some --  33 A   If the adaawk --  34 Q   Can I just finish the question, please.  35 A   I'm sorry.  36 Q   Can't you look at Legyaerh like that to try to put  37 time depth into it when you've got a fixed date, and  38 you know you've got a fixed date?  39 MR. GRANT:  I object, because the fixed date was Mr. Willms.  4 0    THE COURT:  She agreed with it.  41 MR. GRANT:  She said that it could be in that range.  42 THE COURT:  It was feasible.  43 MR. GRANT:  It was feasible, not a date she had given.  44 A   In an adaawk -- if you wanted to take one adaawk and  45 say, first of all, do you feel that this is an  46 accurate representation of all of the other adaawk, is  47 this your conclusion dealing with all of the other 17384  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 adaawk relating to these events, do you think that  2 this is the best version and an accurate  3 representation of it, if you put that before me and  4 then you said and as you can see you can date the last  5 event, if I had already established that I was -- the  6 chronology was what I had concluded then, of course,  7 the date at the end would be an indication working  8 back.  9 Q   Right.  The problem that you had in working that way  10 is that the adaawks were inconsistent; correct?  11 A   There are -- there are versions and variations between  12 versions.  As I said, that's why this is such a  13 complex analysis.  14 Q   Right.  And there are adaawks that are inaccurate?  15 A   There are variations between adaawk.  It depends on --  16 Q   They can both be right even if they say different  17 things?  18 A  What I was doing with the adaawk was taking specific  19 events and putting them in sequence.  There were all  20 kinds of things in the adaawk that I didn't deal with.  21 For example, the supernatural elements.  If a people  22 said they were somewhere and they moved somewhere else  23 those were the events that I was dealing with.  24 Q   Now, you know that many of the Gwenhoot adaawks, as  25 with the Raven Clan Outlaw adaawks that we went  26 through, have got historic references right in them?  27 A   Yes, we've said that.  An adaawk, a proper adaawk  28 begins at the beginning of the history of a house and  29 ends with contact.  It's not uncommon to find the last  30 event dealing with contact.  Then there are other  31 excerpts from adaawk that we've been calling adaawk  32 that simply cover one event or two events or three  33 events.  34 Q   Could you turn to tab 105 of Exhibit 1046.  This is —  35 the informant is -- this is entitled "The Gisparhlawts  36 Fight the Hagwelgyets".  And Gisparhlawts, we just  37 went through that.  It's Legyaerh was the chief of the  38 Gisparhlawts?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q  41 "The following event happened long after  42 firearms had made their appearance in this  43 country.  There had been bad feelings for  44 some time between the Gisparhlawts tribe and  45 the Hagwelgyet (a Dene tribe), at the  46 Bulkley canyon, near the present Hazelton.  47 Threats passed between them as to their 17385  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 power in warfare.  These feelings grew very  2 tense, as the Hagwelgyet recently had  3 returned from an interior raid which was  4 successful.  They were looking for other  5 tribal lands to invade."  6  7 Just stopping there.  In the adaawks there are  8 descriptions of warfare that takes place between  9 various tribes; correct?  And this is one example.  10 And let's not call it an adaawk, if that's what you're  11 looking at, let's just call it something from  12 Gwenhoot.  13 A   No, it's adaawk.  14 Q   This one's an adaawk.  Okay.  So there are accounts of  15 warfare between various tribes in the adaawks?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Right.  And many of the adaawks dealing with warfare  18 are historic.  In other words, the events described in  19 them are historic?  20 A   I wouldn't necessarily say many.  Every group has --  21 has recent and ancient events in their adaawk.  22 Q   But weren't you struck when you reviewed the adaawks  23 by -- especially when you look at the adaawks that are  24 entitled "Tsetsaut Raid", "Gisparhlawts Fight", "Haida  25 Invasion", how many of those adaawks were historic,  26 did that strike you at all?  27 A   There are a lot of versions.  As you move closer to  28 the present the versions -- the number of accounts of  29 certain events increase, yes.  30 Q   And would it be fair to say that in your review of the  31 adaawks you could see that as we get closer to the  32 historic period it appears that there is more warfare  33 going on?  34 A  Well, certainly after contact there was a great deal  35 of warfare.  And, of course, as I indicated yesterday,  36 the maritime fur trade caused internal fighting among  37 the peoples here.  38 Q   And did you note that -- in reviewing the adaawk that  39 the warfare was usually connected with trading or  40 acquisition of territory or material goods?  41 A   Through the entire time period or through --  42 Q   Through a historic period.  43 A   Through historic period.  Trade and also the influence  44 of alcohol on the coast.  45 Q   But just dealing with Legyaerh -- I mean, Legyaerh  46 burns Kispiox, he attacked Kitselas.  That was in  47 respect of trading? 17386  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  THE COURT  45  46  A  47  He attacked Kitselas at a much earlier time also, but  that was -- the trade networks were already well  established by the time the trade with non-Indians  began.  So the -- not all of the trading wars were  trading with the non-Indians, but certainly as -- as  the competition for furs and for access to the white  traders increased the wars increased.  Yes.  And you know that from reading the adaawk?  It's indicated in the adaawk, yes.  And that's my  conclusion from it.  Now, perhaps we can turn now to 1049.  Can I just -- this Gisparhlawts Hagwelgyet one, in  terms of dating this Tom Hankin established his store  and he was only there for a very brief time, a four  year period, so that helps when to date that one.  Exhibit 1049.  This is — and tab 30.  1049, my lord,  is Wolf Clan Invaders.  And it's entitled "Recent  Tsimsyan Warfare".  Now, is this -- was this an  adaawk?  Sorry.  Tab 30.  Yes.  You'll see at the bottom -- the bottom paragraph they  discuss a feast, and then in the third -- the third  line -- I'm on the first page of this Recent Tsimsyan  Warfare, the third line.  "It is a rule that anyone going to a feast  carries a gun under his blankets for his own  protection."  Now, were you aware of that?  I've read this adaawk, yes.  This is a post-contact  one, obviously.  Is that accurate for post-contact feasts?  Certainly not to my knowledge.  Not -- but I think  he's speaking of a particular place in a particular  series of events.  It may have been that the  particular people feasting at this time were not on  friendly terms and they were using guns in case  something broke out.  There was also a period of time  around the forts where they had what they called  liquor feasts, and perhaps this is one of those.  Yes,  it is.  "But this time Hlaiderh and Sara'wan bought a  lot of whiskey and gave it to Neeslaranows."  :  I'm sorry.  Madam reporter is going to need some  spelling for that.  H-L-A-I-D-E-R-H and S-A-R-A-'-W-A-N. 17387  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 MR. WILLMS:  2 Q   Now, could you turn to 34, please.  It's entitled "The  3 Niskae and Gitlaen Against the Gitsalasu", and that's  4 Niskae, N-I-S-K-A-E, Gitlaen, G-I-T-L-A-E-N, and  5 G-I-T-S-A-L-A-S-U.  Matthew Johnson.  Laens of the  6 Gisparhlaw'ts tribe is the informant.  And it starts:  7  8 "Two tribes claimed the exclusive privilege  9 of trading with the Gitksan of the upper  10 Skeena.  These were the Gisparhlaw'ts and  11 the Gitsalasu; they..."  12  13 Oh, sorry.  Just pausing there.  The Gisparhlawts,  14 that's Legyaerh?  15 A   Yes.  And this shows you even at this late time period  16 that the -- that the Gitsalas hadn't totally lost  17 their trading rights on the upper Skeena.  18 Q   Yes.  19  20 "They very often united together to trade,  21 as the Gitsalasu tribe, living as it did  22 right in the canyon..."  23  24 That's Gitsalas?  25 A  M'hm.  26 Q  27 "Were a dangerous foe, and Legyaerh, in  28 order to ally himself with them, he or  29 others closely related with him, would marry  30 into the Gitsalasu royal houses."  31  32 So at this time Gitsalasu still had royal houses?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   This is in the 1800's?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Yeah.  37  38 "Often his nieces would marry there, to form  39 closer alliances.  So in this way these two  40 tribes made themselves the foremost traders  41 among the Tsimsyan.  They resented any  42 interfernece in their trading with the  43 Gitksan of the interior."  44  45 That's a description of what happened after 1836,  46 isn't it?  That's after the attack by Legyaerh at  47 Kitselas, and the settlement of the disputes, and the 173?  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 marriage of some of Legyaerh's relatives into the  2 Gitsalas people; right?  3 A  After the most recent attack on the Gitsalas?  4 Q   Yes.  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   Now, did -- when was it that you said that royal  7 houses, royalty wasn't a factor any more from the  8 adaawk, and how long from the adaawk were there -- was  9 there royalty among the Tsimsyan and the Gitksan?  10 MR. GRANT:  That's two questions.  11 MR. WILLMS:  Sorry.  I didn't know that there was a distinction.  12 Q   Is there a distinction between royal houses among the  13 Tsimsyan and royal houses among the Gitksan?  14 A  Very definitely.  That's what I was saying, it was the  15 royal houses among the Gitsalas that affected the  16 villages close to Kitselas that were Gitksan, and  17 the -- it was after the height of trade, which is  18 before these events, that the Gitksan went -- went  19 back to their own non-royal form, and also -- that's  20 all.  21 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, I can just finish this volume.  I only  22 have two more references in this volume, or one more  23 if that's all right rather than --  24 THE COURT:  You can't pick it up tomorrow morning?  25 MR. WILLMS:  I can pick it up here tomorrow morning.  2 6 THE COURT:  I think we'll adjourn.  27 MR. GRANT:  I just wonder for my own understanding if my friend  28 has any sense of when he's able to complete so we are  29 going all day tomorrow or half a day.  30 THE COURT:  What do you think, Mr. Willms?  31 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, I've cut a great deal out during the  32 break, and I think I -- I'm fairly sure I shouldn't be  33 past the morning break tomorrow.  34 THE COURT:  All right.  So we'll be into the afternoon then,  35 will we?  3 6 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, I'll do what I can to shorten my  37 cross-examination, my lord.  38 THE COURT:  All right.  Is it convenient to start at 9:30?  39 MR. WILLMS:  Yes, my lord.  4 0 MR. MACAULAY:  8:30?  41 THE COURT  42 MR. GRANT  4 3    THE COURT  I'm sorry?  Mr. Macaulay suggests eight.  I'm afraid I have matters I have to attend before we  44 start here in the morning.  30.  30 is as early as I can make it.  Thank you.  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until  4 5 MR. GRANT: 9  4 6 THE COURT: 9  47    THE REGISTRAR 17389  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 9:30 tomorrow.  2  3 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO JUNE 10, 1989 AT 9:30 a.m.)  4  5 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  6 a true and accurate transcript of the  7 proceedings herein to the best of my  8 skill and ability.  9  10  11    12 Peri McHale, Official Reporter  13 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


Citation Scheme:


Citations by CSL (citeproc-js)

Usage Statistics



Customize your widget with the following options, then copy and paste the code below into the HTML of your page to embed this item in your website.
                            <div id="ubcOpenCollectionsWidgetDisplay">
                            <script id="ubcOpenCollectionsWidget"
                            async >
IIIF logo Our image viewer uses the IIIF 2.0 standard. To load this item in other compatible viewers, use this url:


Related Items