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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-07-05] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jul 5, 1989

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 18116  D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 July 5, 1989  2 VANCOUVER, B.C.  3  4 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. In the Supreme Court of British  5 Columbia, this fifth day of July, 1989, in the matter  6 of Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen at bar, my  7 lord.  8 May I remind you you are still under oath and  9 would you state your name for the record, please?  10 THE WITNESS:   Dora Wilson-Kenni.  11 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.  12 THE COURT:  Koenigsberg.  13  14 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KOENIGSBERG:  15 Q   Madam registrar, would you put Exhibit 1063, 1064 and  16 1065 in front of the witness, please?  Yes, it's  17 Samoox, Goohlaht and Smogelgem.  Looking first at  18 1064, yesterday you gave some evidence about an  19 addition to 1064 on page 7.  There's an addition of a  20 line of people at the top of that genealogy coming  21 over from page 6 and beginning with, is it, Ghonnow?  22 A   Uh-huh.  23 Q   Yes.  And that line adds -- well, I guess we can call  24 them a small lineage of people ending with on the  25 right Paddy Isaac.  Do you see that?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Yes.  Was it your information that added that to this  28 genealogy or did you -- was that information given to  29 you by someone else?  30 A  Well, I noticed that Paddy Isaac was not on there and  31 I started asking about him and that's -- that's the  32 information that I got.  33 Q   Okay.  What was your source that Paddy Isaac was in  34 the house of Goohlaht, or is it Caspit?  35 A   It's Goohlaht.  36 Q   And from what source did you learn that Paddy Isaac  37 was in Goohlaht?  38 A  Well, I heard Rita George talking about it and so I  39 asked Alfred Joseph.  40 Q   Okay.  And Alfred gave you the information that Paddy  41 Isaac was in Goohlaht and that his mother was Agnes  42 Augusta and Old Isaac?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And also that Agnes' mother was Ghonnow?  45 A   Yes.  And that was mainly because of Steve Morris who  46 was Roy Morris' father that I wondered where they --  47 what house they were in. 18117  D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Q Okay.  Have you ever heard of, or do you know, that  2 Satsan, S-a-t-s-a-n --  3 A Yes.  4 Q -- is a name in the house of Samoox?  5 A Yes.  6 Q Yes.  And have you ever heard that Paddy Isaac --  7 A Yes.  8 Q -- held the name Satsan?  9 A Yes.  10 Q Yes.  And had you heard that Paddy Isaac was indeed in  11 the house of Samoox?  12 A Yes.  13 Q Why would you or why does he not appear on the  14 genealogy for Samoox?  15 A Because that's the only place I could connect it here.  16 Q Had you heard that Paddy Isaac was the brother of  17 Miriam David, who appears on Exhibit 1063 on the  18 genealogy of Samoox?  19 A I wasn't sure about it, though I did hear that.  20 Q If we just look then at 1063, I'm finished now with  21 Goohlaht, just looking at 1063 then, you have told us  22 that -- explained this genealogy and your knowledge  23 that Harvey Naziel took the name Samoox?  24 A Yes.  25 Q And did he take that name after Moses David passed  2 6 away?  27 A Yes.  2 8 Q And who was it that would have adopted Harvey Naziel  29 into the house of Samoox?  30 A That was a puzzle to me, and I was told that it was  31 through the decision of the chiefs and those, Goohlaht  32 and Knedebeas, that placed him there.  33 Q Okay.  Because, of course, you'll agree with me that  34 there is no member of the house of Samoox alive at the  35 time that Harvey was adopted in?  36 A No, there's Jennifer --  37 MS. KOENIGSBERG:   I'm —  38 MR. GRANT:  Just let her finish.  39 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  40 Q I'm sorry.  41 A No member.  42 Q I should say no chiefs?  43 A Oh, no one with that name.  Yes.  44 Q But your point is that, of course, Jennifer David, a  45 member of the house of Samoox --  46 A Yes.  47 Q -- was alive and -- 1811?  D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   -- and in the house at the time that Harvey was  3 adopted in?  4 A   Yes.  5 MS. KOENIGSBERG:   If we look at —  6 THE COURT:  Are you saying she was the only living member at the  7 time of the adoption?  8 THE WITNESS:   As far as I know, yes.  And I did bring it up  9 with Lucy Namox and -- like I just made a comment  10 about how small the house was and I wondered, you  11 know, like you wondered why it just wasn't included  12 with Goohlaht because of like you're talking about  13 Paddy Isaac.  14 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  15 Q   Yes.  16 A  And how he used to be Satsan, and I said to her that,  17 you know, this house is very small.  There's -- like  18 right now there's only seems to be Harvey and Jennifer  19 and her children in there, and she said "That's  20 right." And I said it's quite apparent now that Harvey  21 is going to have a job and making sure that that  22 house, you know, stays alive, and it seems like with  23 Jennifer being starting to be prepared it -- there is  24 hope for it.  25 Q   Okay.  And do you know when Maggie Seymour passed  2 6 away?  27 A   It was quite some time ago, and she died away from the  28 territory so I'm not too certain about when she died.  29 Q   Okay.  And we've seen from looking at Goohlaht and  30 Paddy Isaac there that he has passed away?  31 A   Yes.  32 MS. KOENIGSBERG:   Do you know when he passed away?  33 THE COURT:  Who's that?  34 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Paddy Isaac.  35 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  36 THE WITNESS: Paddy Isaac?  I should know that because it has to  37 be within the last 15 years.  38 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  39 Q   Might it have been within the last five since the  40 lawsuit was commenced?  41 A   No.  42 Q   Okay.  And then, lastly, if we could deal with  43 Smogelgem, just a question on that, it's Exhibit 1065,  44 and looking at page 6 and 7, pages 6 and 7, and you've  45 given evidence already of course about having -- I  46 believe your evidence was that you didn't personally  47 know Adele Charlie, but that you had heard of her. 18119  D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 She's on page 6.  She's on the second line if there  2 were a line there, page 6.  See Adele Charlie?  3 A   Uh-huh.  4 Q   And her children, two daughters, Mary Charles and  5 Elsie Charles?  6 A   Uh-huh.  7 Q   And Elsie goes over on to page 7?  8 A   Uh-huh.  9 Q   Do you know what -- do you know Mary Charles?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   And Elsie?  12 A   I don't know Elsie personally.  13 Q   Do you know what names in the house of -- are they in  14 Kloumkhun or?  15 A  Mary, she's in Smogelgem.  16 Q   Okay.  And is Elsie in Smogelgem or --  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   All right.  Do you know what names, chiefly names,  19 they hold in that house?  20 A   Oh, gee, I know Mary's name, I just can't remember.  21 Q   Well, I see that Sk'okum -- it looks to me, it's very  22 hard to read, as though that's Sk'okumlahah, but I'm  23 not sure.  Is that -- I tried it with a magnifying  24 glass and I still wasn't sure.  25 A   Yeah, that is Sk'okumlahah, but --  26 Q   Had you heard that she held the name Sk'okumlahah --  27 Skokumhalyt?  28 A   Could be, but I can't say yes or no on that.  29 Q   Okay.  30 A   I know her name.  I've heard it mentioned and I just  31 can't be certain right now.  32 Q   Had you heard what name Elsie Charles holds?  33 A   No.  34 MS. KOENIGSBERG:   Those are all my questions.  Thank you.  35 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Re-examination?  36  37 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. GRANT:  38 Q   If I could just have a moment.  Just very briefly, my  39 lord.  Could you put in front of the witness the  40 provincial document book Exhibit 1068?  It has all the  41 documents in it, madam registrar.  Could you turn to  42 tab 1 of Exhibit 1068, please?  This is a  43 reproduction, according to my friends, of Exhibit  44 998-20, Marvin George's interview with Elizabeth Jack.  45 Is Elizabeth Jack a Gitksan or a Wet'suwet'en?  46 A   I think she is Gitksan.  47 Q   Okay.  Now, you see there on that chart Baptiste Louie 18120  D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plfs.)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 equals Louie Baptiste, question mark, and the Baptiste  2 Louie that is being referred to on that chart is the  3 brother of a person referred to as Chief Louie.  Now,  4 you've given evidence with respect to the genealogies  5 that you tendered of a Louie Baptiste, the brother of  6 Canyon Creek Mary; you recall that yesterday?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Where is the Louie Baptiste, the brother of Canyon  9 Creek Mary, buried?  10 A   Hagwilget.  11 Q   On that genealogy of Mary -- Canyon Creek Mary and  12 Louie Baptiste, you do not list a person named Chief  13 Louie?  14 A   No.  15 Q   Do you know or have you heard that Chief Louie is the  16 brother of Canyon Creek Mary and Louie Baptiste?  17 A   No.  18 THE COURT:  Pardon?  19 THE WITNESS:   No.  2 0    MR. GRANT:  21 Q   Have you heard of a person referred to as Baptiste  22 Louie, the brother of Chief Louie?  23 A   No.  24 Q   Okay.  Do you know if there is a Baptiste Louie that  25 is buried at Hagwilget?  26 A   No, it's Louie Baptiste.  27 Q   Based on your knowledge of the genealogies and what  28 you've concluded, can you -- is this Baptiste Louie,  29 the brother of Chief Louie, the same person as Louie  30 Baptiste, the brother of Canyon Creek Mary?  31 A   I don't think so.  32 Q   Okay.  Now, Jennifer -- I'd like to refer you to tab  33 number 7.  This is an affidavit, an interrogatory  34 answer of Lucy Namox, which was prepared and sworn  35 March 30th, 1987.  Now, you see paragraph 2 of the  36 affidavit, the second sentence, says -- or in context  37 it says "Samoox died in November 1985." Now, would  38 that be referring to Moses David?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Okay.  Then she says "He was the last living member of  41 the house of Samoox." Then, if you go over to question  42 1, she says:  43  44 "A   Samoox died in November 1985.  He was the  45 last member of the house of Samoox and the  46 house is now vacant."  47 18121  D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plfs.)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  MR.  GRANT  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  GRANT  5  Q  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  MR.  GRANT  30  THE  COURT  31  32  MR.  GRANT  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  GRANT  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  42  A  43  THE  COURT  44  45  46  MR.  GRANT  47  Excuse me, where is --  I'm sorry, I'm on tab 1 -- tab 7.  On the third page, tab 7.  Third page over right there.  "A   Samoox died in November 1985.  He was the  last member of the house of Samoox and the  house is now vacant.  I, Goohlaht, also  known as Lucy Namox, am authorized pursuant  to Wet'suwet'en law to be the caretaker of  the name Samoox and of the territories of  Samoox until such a time that a successor is  named."  And then Question 24, the next page, her answer  "A   The house of Samoox is presently empty.  We  are planning a feast to be held in May of  1987 to choose the next Samoox."  Now, in January -- in March of 1987, Jennifer  David was alive; is that right?  Yes.  From -- was she in March of 1987 a member of the house  of Samoox?  Yes.  Okay.  You mean was Lucy Namox a member of the house of  Samoox?  No, Jennifer David.  Jennifer David.  Was Jennifer David in the house of Samoox in March of  1987?  Yes.  And is your -- have you confirmed -- or in your --  you've referred in your cross-examination to  discussion with Lucy Namox.  Does she agree with you  that Jennifer's a member of the house of Samoox?  Yes.  :  Mr. Grant, really, are you asking now to have the  witness now tell me that she disagrees with what she  said earlier.  :  Okay.  In reading what I've just read to you, does  that change your opinion of Jennifer David being a 18122  D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plfs.)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  MR.  macke:  3  4  THE  COURT  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  MR.  GRANT  12  13  14  THE  COURT  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  MR.  GRANT  23  THE  COURT  24  25  MR.  GRANT  26  27  28  29  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  GRANT  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  house -- member of the house of Samoox?  JZIE:  I object to that, my lord.  We've had the  question twice and it's been answered.  :  Well, doesn't it speak for itself?  She's done her  investigation.  She prepared or she verified the  genealogy and it shows Jennifer David in it.  The only  thing that's obvious about all this is that there's a  contradiction, and surely that's a matter that can be  dealt with by counsel.  Surely this witness can't help  in that regard, can she?  :  Well, only that my friend repeatedly asked her with  respect to each genealogy that "Would you prefer the  evidence of the chief or -- "  :  Oh, I know counsel always ask that question, but  judges have long ago given up any reliance on that  kind of question or answer.  The question of  reliability of evidence is for the court, not for the  witness.  I don't know why, with respect, lawyers keep  asking that question.  It's like saying to a witness  "Are you as sure of that as you are of all of your  evidence?"  It's a wonderful question.  :  A classic 15 years ago.  :  A classic question for television, but judges pay no  attention whatsoever to it.  :  I certainly -- I just want to say I take from what  you say, my lord, that this whole question of looking  at interrogatories and looking at genealogies is a  question for argument and that's the position that I  would take as well.  :  Certainly.  And if I -- with that understanding, that shortens up  my redirect considerably.  I'd just like to -- well, I don't have to refer  you to a specific genealogy Mrs. Wilson-Kenni, but Mr.  Mackenzie yesterday referred you to different lineages  as shown on some of the genealogies, you recall that,  where there was no connection on your genealogy  between two lineages, and in some cases you said "but  they are in the same house"?  Yes.  Okay.  Why -- within the Wet'suwet'en system,  according to your knowledge and the genealogies, can  there be more than one lineage in the same house?  Yes, I think so.  Okay.  You notice that especially when they work together in 18123  D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plfs.)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 the feast house.  Once they walk in the door of a  2 feast house they work together.  3 Q   Okay.  And is that known by you and by the others in  4 the community?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   That -- of the house membership?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Now, you were asked about Seymour Dennis yesterday,  9 you recall that?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   And you said -- and Mr. Mackenzie asked you, it  12 doesn't appear on the genealogy, and you said his name  13 should be on the genealogy?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   I believe we were -- that was with respect to Woos'  16 genealogy; is that right?  17 A   Yes.  18 MR. GRANT:   Okay.  Maybe I could just have that put before you.  19 That's exhibit number, what is it, 1066?  Can you  20 indicate for the court where Seymour Dennis should  21 appear on that genealogy?  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  I object to this line of questioning, my lord.  23 Mr. Grant is now going to fill in the genealogy, which  24 he of course was attempting to do -- which of course  25 he was trying to do on his examination in chief.  26 THE COURT: Did you raise the question of Seymour Dennis in your  27 cross-examination?  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, I did, my lord.  29 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  It was never mentioned at all before, and the  30 witness said yes, the answer is -- he asked he doesn't  31 appear on the genealogy, and the witness said his name  32 should be on the genealogy, and Mr. Mackenzie went no  33 further.  So I'm saying where does it appear.  34 THE COURT:  I think if it was brought up in cross-examination  35 that way, then it's proper re-examination.  36 MR. GRANT:  Thank you.  I think it was with reference, if I  37 recall rightly --  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  Excuse me, my lord, I don't want to interrupt my  39 friend's re-examination too much, but I trust he is  40 not going to instruct Mrs. Dora Wilson-Kenni where  41 that name should be on the genealogy.  42 MR. GRANT:  No, I'm not.  My friend was referring to it in my —  43 according to my notes he was referring to page 11 I  44 believe.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm sorry, my lord, that's not true.  I was not  46 referring to it with respect to any page.  47 THE WITNESS:   It would be — it would be on page 11, but I'm 18124  D. Wilson-Kenni (for Plfs.)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  not prepared to put it on there right this minute.  MR.  GRANT  Q  A  Uh-huh.  Because I understand that he was very closely related  to Woos.  Q   When you say Woos, which Woos are you referring to?  A   To Topley Matthew Sam.  MR. GRANT:   You were asked questions about Big Seymour  Gyolugyet's mother, do you recall that, by Mr.  Mackenzie yesterday who asked you a number of  questions about Big Seymour's mother, Big Seymour  Gyolugyet's mother, who's unnamed on the genealogy;  you recall that?  From what you know, can you -- have  you concluded as to whether she was Gitksan,  Wet'suwet'en or some other group?  MR. MACKENZIE:  I object to that question, my lord.  THE COURT:  Why?  MR. MACKENZIE:  Because the witness gave evidence about that  person in chief and a circle with a dot was placed on  that, was placed on that position in the genealogy,  and there was an opportunity to go into the  identification of that person in great detail, and  then the questions in cross-examination went into that  in great detail and the witness didn't answer.  Now, I  don't -- in my submission that's not a topic that  should be opened again in re-examination.  MR. GRANT:  There was no question or issue raised at all in  direct with respect to the issue of whether this  person was Wet'suwet'en or non-Wet'suwet'en.  THE COURT: Oh, I know, but the rule's broader than that, isn't  it, Mr. Grant.  If you embark upon a subject you've  got to deal with it in chief.  You can't hold back,  otherwise there'd have to be another  cross-examination.  Surely if you embark upon a  subject you've got to complete it.  I mean, that's the  rule.  MR. GRANT:  Yes.  No, I —  THE COURT:  It's not always strictly followed.  Why shouldn't it  be strictly followed in the circumstances we find  ourselves now?  It seems we should apply the rules  somewhat strictly at this point, inasmuch as we're  more than half a day, well, more than half a day, over  the time estimate for this witness.  MR. GRANT:  That was my ultimate question in any event, my lord.  THE COURT:  Well, I'm not sure that everyone would agree with  that description of it, Mr. Grant.  MR. GRANT:  My final question I should say. 18125  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  Your final question.  MR. GRANT:  It's not the ultimate question.  THE COURT:  Thank you, Mrs. Dora Kenni, you're excused,  Wilson-Kenni, I'm sorry.  THE COURT: Do we have to page Mr. Rush?  MR. GRANT:  No, it will just take us a little reorganizing.  Maybe I should just say this:  I've spoken to Mr.  Rush, and I'm going to excuse myself.  I anticipate  from what Mr. Rush has said and Mr. Willms that the  next witness would not commence until after the noon  hour at two o'clock, and I would like to be excused to  be with that witness.  THE COURT:  Well, you don't need to be excused, Mr. Grant, but  whether you're here or not is between you and your  client.  MR. GRANT:  That's true.  The witness and I will be away from  the court until two o'clock.  I just wanted to advise  your lordship.  THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Rush will take up the rest of the morning  will he?  MR. GRANT:  I suspect Mr. Rush will take the rest of the  morning.  THE COURT:  Do you want to adjourn for a minute?  MR. RUSH: No, it's not necessary.  My lord, the next witness is  Mr. Lou Skoda, S-k-o-d-a, a cartographer, and I'll be  asking that the court determine him to be an expert to  give expert opinion in cartography including the  research, design, preparation and production of maps  using specialized cartographic techniques.  Mr. Skoda, would you come forward, please?  MR. WILLMS:  My lord, qualifications are not in issue.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  LOU SKODA, a witness called on behalf  of the Plaintiffs, having been duly  sworn, testifed as follows:  THE REGISTRAR: And would you state your full name and spell your  last name please, sir?  THE WITNESS:   Lou Skoda, S-k-o-d-a.  THE REGISTRAR: Thank you, sir.  Please be seated.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Now, my lord, I thank my friends for admitting  qualifications.  I'm just going to submit his  curriculum vitae and an updated document of his 18126  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 personal details for the -- to be exhibited.  My  2 friends have these.  I just ask you Mr. Skoda if you  3 can identify the first document entitled "Curriculum  4 vitae" to be yours?  5 A   It is mine.  6 Q   And the next document entitled "Personal details of L.  7 Skoda, Principal and research cartographer", and that  8 is yours?  9 A   That is also mine.  10 MR. RUSH:   Thank you.  Can those be the next two exhibits?  11 THE COURT:  Do I have them both?  12 THE REGISTRAR: No.  13 MR. RUSH:  Here, there are —  14 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  The next exhibits are —  15 THE REGISTRAR: 1069, my lord.  16  17 (EXHIBIT 1069:  Curriculum vitae of Lou Skoda)  18  19 THE COURT:  Do you want them both one exhibit or separate  20 exhibits?  21 MR. RUSH:  Separate, my lord, please.  22 THE COURT:  And 1070.  23  24 (EXHIBIT 1070:  "Personal details of L. Skoda,  25 Principal and research cartographer)  26  27 MR. RUSH:  Now, my lord, I'm going to file a notice to admit and  28 responses relating to certain of the maps in the map  29 atlas, and here's a copy of the notice to admit.  30 THE COURT:  1071.  31  32 (EXHIBIT 1071: Notice to Admit)  33  34 MR. RUSH:  And the response by the provincial defendant with a  35 covering letter.  36 THE COURT:  1072.  37  38 (EXHIBIT 1072: Response by the AGBC)  39  40 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  Response by the federal defendant.  41 THE COURT:  1073.  42  43 (EXHIBIT 1073: Response by the Federal Defendant)  44  45 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  And I wonder if we can place the map  46 atlas, Exhibit 358, before Mr. Skoda.  I have it here.  47 Mr. Skoda, I'm going to ask you to look at this, 18127  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  please.  Your lordship has your desk copy.  Mr. Skoda,  you have reviewed in this map atlas maps 1 through 23?  THE COURT:  What's the number of the map atlas?  MR. RUSH:  It's 358, Exhibit 358, my lord, and I believe the  individual maps sub --  THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  MR. RUSH:  -- numbers of that map exhibit.  THE WITNESS:   I did.  THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Mr. Rush, I don't seem to have marked the  first one or maybe they've all been marked.  I have  number three marked and I have number two marked.  I  don't seem to have number one marked anywhere.  MR. RUSH:  My lord, the larger version of this was marked as  Exhibit 1052.  COURT:  All right.  RUSH:  And if need be what I will do is ask Mr. Skoda to  identify map number one.  COURT:  Madam registrar points out that her copy has it  marked as 350-1, but she says that's wrong.  RUSH:  All right.  Well, perhaps I could just take that, my  lord.  COURT:  We'll just straighten this out.  Where did you get  this 1005 number from Mr. --  RUSH:  From this larger map.  REGISTRAR: No, that's 1052.  RUSH:  That's what I said, 1052.  Did I say 1055?  I  misspoke if I did.  It's 1052 entered as an exhibit  here and I think identified by Susan Marsden.  COURT:  1052 —  RUSH:  It's not dashed, my lord, I think it's just one of --  COURT:  1052.  All right.  RUSH:  Yes.  COURT:  Well, then I think the map atlas should be 1052-1.  The large one is 1052.  MR. RUSH:  Yes, my lord, but I think that the map atlas itself  has already been marked as an Exhibit 358.  THE COURT: Oh, I see.  All right.  MR. RUSH:  And it's only the larger blown-up version of that one  particular map which is 1052.  THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  MR. RUSH:  And I can perhaps —  THE COURT:  Yes, you're quite right, because the other ones are  marked by tab number 358, 2, 3, et cetera.  Mrs.  Ritchie has had the small map atlas copy marked 358-A,  which sounds like a number for identification.  MR. WILLMS:  What happened there is that's the flip side of the  biogeoclimatic map, if you turn the page over, and it  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE 1812?  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 was marked -A to differentiate it from what was on the  2 other side.  It was during Miss Haeussler's evidence.  3 THE COURT:  Thank you.  The mystery's all cleared up.  Thank  4 you.  5 MR. RUSH:  May I have that map, please?  6 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, sorry.  7 MR. RUSH:  8 Q   Mr. Skoda, I would just ask you, if you will, please,  9 to compare map 1, identified as "Ancient times - the  10 arrival about 10,000 years BP" in the map atlas,  11 Exhibit 358, with this large map 1052, and what can  12 you say about the two?  13 A   They're identical images.  One is a larger scale, a  14 photographic enlargement of the smaller one, smaller  15 size.  16 Q   1052 is a photographic enlargement of map number 1 and  17 358; is that right?  18 A   That's correct.  19 Q   And the text that's on the map, Mr. Skoda, is the same  20 text on 1052 as appears on the map number 1?  21 A   That's correct.  22 Q   All right.  Now, maps 1 through 23, which are in  23 Exhibit 358, can you -- you can identify these can  24 you?  25 A   I can.  26 Q   And did you design and prepare these?  27 A   Yes, I did.  28 Q   And can you generally say in respect of the  29 over-printed material what the source of that material  3 0 was?  31 A   Generally that material came from the specialized  32 researchers, the experts in their particular field.  33 Q   Okay.  Now, in terms of the maps themselves, what can  34 you say about what they reflect?  35 A   The base maps?  36 Q   Yes.  37 A   The base maps reflect information which was  38 garnered -- collected from National Topographic Series  39 maps of different scales from gazetteers that provided  40 information about names and perhaps some specialized  41 maps that were published by the Department of Energy  42 Mines and Resources.  43 Q   And, Mr. Skoda, are the maps 2 through -- excuse me, 1  44 through 23, an accurate reflection of the information  45 provided to you and generated by yourself?  46 A   They are.  47 Q   All right.  Now, I want to ask you, if you will, 18129  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 please, to turn to map number 2, and for the purposes  2 of this discussion, my lord, I'm going to ask Mr.  3 Skoda to refer to this blown-up version of map 2.  4 And, Mr. Skoda, can you confirm once again that this  5 map 2, which is a blown-up version, is a  6 photographically enlarged version of what appears as  7 map 2 in Exhibit 358?  8 A   Yes, it is so photographically enlarged, yes.  9 Q   And what is described as the mapping units running  10 along the left-hand side of that, can you --  11 A   The mapping units on the large version are an  12 abbreviation of the information that's provided on the  13 small maps on the back of map number 1.  There was not  14 enough room on the board and only two items of  15 information were selected, one that identifies the  16 colour on the map itself, and then the name of the  17 particular biogeoclimatic unit to which -- the name of  18 the unit itself.  19 Q   All right.  Thank you.  Now, my question both in  20 relation to map number 2 -- and you can perhaps  21 illustrate this by reference to its photographically  22 enlarged version, what is the orientation of this map,  23 Mr. Skoda?  24 A  Well, if we refer to north, north on that map is  25 approximately left side of the map.  The view,  26 therefore, that we are presenting is from the Pacific  27 Ocean inland.  28 Q   All right.  Now, are not most maps constructed so that  29 north is at the top?  30 A   It is a general convention to construct maps so that  31 the north is up.  32 Q   And can you -- can you explain to the court why these  33 maps were constructed with north to the left?  34 A   It was my understanding at the time when the project  35 was defined -- designed, that there will be a  36 relatively large size of territory that needed to be  37 presented, and that therefore the constraints on how  38 the information will be reviewed, read, will be  39 severe.  It was also apparent that the size and the  40 shape of the territory was approximately two squares  41 left to right.  With the understanding of how the maps  42 were to be used, it was apparent that the maps should  43 be oriented so that the information would be readily  44 available to a viewer on a smaller desk, perhaps your  45 lordship's size, and also when a larger size map was  46 to be viewed in a courtroom, that the information  47 would be available generally at an eye level.  In the 18130  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 traditional orientation it would be very difficult to  2 read the information at the bottom and at the top.  3 Q   All right.  Now, in terms -- in terms of the scale of  4 the maps in the map atlas, Exhibit 358, what's the  5 scale that is utilized?  6 A  We have two scales here.  One scale is a general  7 scale, 1 to 1.4 million.  8 Q   Is that illustrated on map 2?  9 A   It is illustrated on map 2.  There's a scale bar and a  10 statement to that effect at the bottom right-hand  11 corner.  That statement is repeated on every map of  12 that scale.  13 Q   And what's the other scale?  14 A   The other scale is 1. -- 1 to .7 million.  It's a  15 larger scale.  The reasoning for having two scales was  16 that initially it was necessary to show the study area  17 in a regional setting that is providing information  18 surrounding the study area.  One other objective was  19 to have information, more detailed information,  20 presented of the study area itself, then the larger  21 scale was chosen to achieve that purpose.  22 Q   And is the larger scale shown on maps 22 and 23?  23 A   It is.  24 Q   All right.  And what did you say that larger scale was  25 again, please?  26 A   1 to .7 million.  27 Q   All right.  Now, you have directed our attention, Mr.  28 Skoda, to the legend at -- on map 2.  Could you just  29 refer to that now?  It's in the --  30 A   The legend in the bottom right-hand corner?  31 Q   Yes.  And could you explain the various elements of  32 this legend, please?  33 A   Okay. The legend was constructed specially separately  34 from any other legend material because it reoccurs and  35 reappears on every one of the sheets forming the same  36 series.  37 Q   Did you prepare this?  38 A   Yes, I did.  39 Q   Okay.  And just if you will take us through very  40 quickly what the elements of this are and how you  41 arrived at it?  42 A   Okay.  The symbol -- the first symbol explained is  43 that of the outer boundary of the study area,  44 Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en claim territory.  45 Q   Yes.  46 A   This information was provided to us in a document and  47 was transferred to the base at the appropriate scale. 18131  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   And who provided that to you?  2 A   That came from Marvin George and that was a document  3 early May, I think May 2nd, that provided that  4 information.  5 Q   Of what year?  6 A   '87.  7 Q   All right.  And just carry on.  The other elements  8 here, Mr. Skoda?  9 A   The second line of information provides an explanation  10 for symbols that we call linear symbols relating to  11 roads, major roads, and railways.  12 Q   And the source of that information?  13 A  Would be National Topographic Series.  14 Q   The NTS series as it's known?  15 A   NTS.  16 Q   Yes.  And the next?  17 A   The next line explains a settlement symbol.  We have  18 two sets of symbols, one that -- one set that  19 describes a Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en settlement, and  20 the second symbol that explains other than the Gitksan  21 and Wet'suwet'en settlements.  22 Q   And the source of that information?  23 A   The source of that information would be NTS series,  24 and in case of the Indian settlements, a document that  25 was also referred to was a map prepared by Department  26 of Indian and Northern Affairs.  27 Q   Thank you.  Now, the contours, please?  28 A   The next two boxes, one refers to contours which were  29 derived from NTS series, glaciers and snow fields,  30 again from NTS series and from aerial photographs and  31 possibly from satellite images to define the edge of  32 the ice.  We have two scales on the map.  On the  33 right-hand side we show the aerial scale to give a  34 reader an approximate size of a unit, such as 10,000  35 hectares, and a linear scale, which is a fairly  36 conventional way of representing distances on a map.  37 Q   All right.  And the contours, the glaciers, and snow  38 fields, were these colours and shapes added by you?  39 A   Yes, they were.  40 Q   All right.  Around the edge of this map there are  41 certain what appear to be references to degrees, and  42 if you follow around the whole of the map, and I  43 believe this appears on each and every one of the  44 series, there are these references.  To what do these  45 refer, please?  46 A   These are references to parallels of latitudes and to  47 meridians.  It is a standard practise in serious 18132  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 cartographic effort to provide clues to absolute  2 location.  These reference lines are just such clues  3 that place a map in relation to the earth reference  4 system.  Around the periphery each of the meridians,  5 for example, is identified at the opposite end of the  6 map.  The meridian then forms a straight line between  7 those two points, and is further identified by small  8 black crosses where the meridians and the parallels of  9 latitude insect.  10 Q   All right.  Now, taking map number 2, Mr. Skoda, there  11 seems to be a difference in colour and shading  12 between, if I may put it, the light green band at the  13 bottom and then various colours which appear  14 throughout the rest of the map, blue, green, grey, et  15 cetera.  Now, can you just express for us the source  16 of the information which led to the colourations in  17 the area other than the green and shaded contours at  18 the bottom?  19 A  Well, there could be two distinct areas recognized on  20 the map.  One area shows the specialized information,  21 that's the thematic information that was provided to  22 us by the field researchers, and the other area that  23 was referred to by the counsel was light green I  24 think.  Simply represents part of the base map which  25 does not carry that specialized information.  26 Q   And that base map was prepared by you?  27 A   The base map was prepared by me, yes.  28 Q   And the specialized information was provided to you  29 and placed on the map?  30 A   The specialized information on the base map?  31 Q   No, in terms of the -- you said the thematic  32 information was provided by you?  33 A   The thematic information, yes, was provided by us.  34 Q   And where it indicates the source in this example map  35 2 is "S. Haeussler" etc.?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   Is that the person who provided you with that  38 information?  39 A   That is so.  40 Q   Now, just in terms of the base map information, Mr.  41 Skoda, the shading in green that appears, for example,  42 at the -- let's take Queen Charlotte Island, which is  43 a discreet element of this map number 2, the shading  44 in green, is that designed -- what is that designed to  45 show if I --  46 A   That's to show the shape of the land itself.  It's an  47 attempt to present the relief in a shaded form that 18133  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 attempts to show where steep slopes exist and perhaps  2 anyone present can view that map and recognize that  3 there is a darker contorted green area at the bottom  4 closest to the observer on the Queen Charlotte Island.  5 On the top left-hand side of the island the green is  6 rather flat and less -- less dramatic in presentation.  7 That represents the flat part of the island and the  8 more intense colouring represents the mountainous part  9 of the island.  10 Q   All right.  Thank you.  Now, decisions were made about  11 the design of the maps 2 to 23?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And who made these design decisions?  14 A   I made the decisions.  15 Q   And I want to ask you now -- I'm going to show you  16 again an enlarged version of a fishing distribution  17 map, map 20.  Can you again confirm this to be an  18 enlarged version of map 20 that is in the atlas?  19 A   It is so.  20 Q   And in terms of the design of this particular map, and  21 the symbols used to show the distribution of salmon,  22 who made those decisions?  23 A   I made those decisions.  24 Q   Okay.  Are those cartographic decisions?  25 A   They are cartographic decisions.  Perhaps it may, my  26 lord, if I mention that the information to us comes in  27 the form of numbers that describes the information  28 like this collected statistically and perhaps in field  29 observations.  It is our tasks as cartographers to  30 understand the numbers and come up with an appropriate  31 design and prescription how these numbers can be  32 represented graphically.  Our task is to analyse the  33 information, group it, and assign symbols that would  34 be suitable to represent that information.  In this  35 particular case when the numbers were analysed for the  36 purposes of graphic presentation, it was obvious that  37 there was a group of species of salmon that were  38 dominant and required very large symbol area.  That  39 more or less determined how large a symbol we may have  4 0 on the map.  41 Q   Okay.  And in terms of the pie symbols that were  42 utilized here, that is your design, is it?  43 A  We came up with the appropriate presentation that  44 indeed represents the species, salmon species, as pie  45 shapes, and each area of the pie is proportional to  46 the number of fish that that segment represents.  47 Q   All right.  Thank you.  Now, would you please turn to 18134  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 map 23?  Perhaps I should ask in relation to map 23,  2 Mr. Skoda, this is the salmon map, the photographs  3 that were utilized by you for the production of this  4 map, the source of the information is attributed to  5 the takers at the -- that appear beside the  6 photograph?  7 A   Yes.  Each photograph is identified as to source.  8 Q   Okay.  Now, I want to ask you about map 23, in  9 particular, Ootsa Lake, and there is by reference to  10 Ootsa Lake a notation, and I'm quoting, "1952  11 pre-flooding shore line".  Do you see that?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   It's on the right-hand side of map 23?  14 A   Yes, I do.  15 Q   And firstly, could you tell his lordship what the  16 source of the information is for the shore line as it  17 appears in the map, and then I want to ask you what  18 the source of the information is for the line  19 indicating the 1952 pre-flooding shore line?  20 A   The source of the information of the blue line?  21 Q   Yes.  Well, there are two lines there.  22 A   Okay.  Well, the hydrographic information, the  23 information defining lakes, streams, and so on, was  24 derived from NTS series.  25 Q   Yes.  26 A   The black information with the notation of saying  27 "1952 pre-flooding shore line" was also derived from  28 NTS series, but a series -- the map sheets that were  29 created before 1952 and therefore had the information  30 on hydrography defined before the flooding.  31 Q   All right.  Thank you.  Now, if you will please  32 turn -- well, perhaps I can use map 23.  On map 23  33 there are English names for topographic planimetric  34 and hydrographic features.  And can you tell his  35 lordship what the source of the information is for  36 those English names?  37 A   The source of that information is NTS series,  38 sometimes verified or checked from gazetteers that are  39 produced by Energy, Mines and Resources.  4 0 Q   A department of the federal government?  41 A   That is a department of the federal government.  Yes.  42 Q   All right.  Now, in relation to, again, utilizing map  43 23 as an example, there appear to be, and you've made  44 reference to this by reference to your legend, the  45 names of village sites which are Gitksan -- appear to  46 be Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en village sites.  What's the  47 source of that information, and I direct your 18135  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 attention to Gitanmaax as an example and Tse Kya,  2 T-s-e, new word, K-y-a, as a second example in the  3 middle of the map?  4 A   This information was confirmed on maps that we  5 received from Marvin George --  6 Q   Yes.  7 A   -- through the system, and verified further by  8 documents I referred to earlier, that's the Department  9 of Indian Affairs and Northern Development.  10 Q   All right.  Now, may I take you back, please, to map  11 number 2, and in relation to map number 2, Mr. Skoda,  12 there are what appear to be Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  13 names for topographic features on the base map, and I  14 would like to ask you how this information came to you  15 and the source of it, please?  16 A   This information came to us in a map form, maps  17 generated by Marvin George.  The selection of -- you  18 will notice, your lordship, that most of the names are  19 in English.  Only some names are in Gitksan,  20 Wet'suwet'en.  We selected few major features and  21 provided the Indian names to those in brackets.  22 Q   And how did you select the major features?  23 A  Well, the major features of rivers were selected on  24 the relative lengths of the river.  The longer the  25 river, the more important the river we assumed the  26 connection.  27 Q   If you look in the middle of what appears to be in the  28 middle of the map number 2, the biogeoclimatic land  29 classification, in the light green you see the Nass  30 River and in parentheses after that --  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   -- appears to be the word Xsi Tsemsen, that's X-s-i,  33 new word, T-s-e-m-s-e-n.  Is that a Gitksan word  34 provided to you of the kind that you have referred  35 earlier --  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   -- as having been provided by Marvin George?  38 A   It is.  39 Q   All right.  And where the map -- where this map refers  40 to names of that kind, are we to take -- what are we  41 to take from that in other topographic and planimetric  42 features?  43 A   Sorry, I didn't get the significance.  44 Q   Where there are other examples of references to  45 topographic and planimetric features, other than the  46 one I've just pointed you to, such as for the Bulkley  47 River you see that you have Wedzen Kwe? 18136  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A   Yes.  I can also refer you to some of the lakes.  Q   Yes.  A  Major lakes.  That's basically it.  Q   My question is where the Wet'suwet'en name appears in  parentheses behind the English name, are we to take it  that the Wet'suwet'en name refers to that feature?  A   Yes, indeed.  Q   Or for that matter the Gitksan name?  A   Right.  Correct.  MR. RUSH:   All right.  I want to hand another map, map 24, up  to his lordship and a copy for the map atlas.  THE REGISTRAR: This is going to be tab 24?  MR. RUSH:  Yes, it will be the next —  THE COURT:  You've seen this before have you, Mr. Willms?  MR. WILLMS:  Yes, my lord.  THE COURT:  I can safely put it in the atlas now?  MR. WILLMS:  Well, my lord, this one is a little different than  the other ones.  We've been putting in the  over-printing -- the documents have been going in with  the note on the record without the over-printing and  it's my submission here that we should go a little bit  further.  In my submission, it is entirely improper to  have "The Homeland" up in the upper right-hand corner.  Not only is it irrelevant to any legal issue in this  case, it's argumentative in itself.  It adds nothing  to the plaintiff's case, and should be deleted and not  put in in any form as it is right here.  The rest of  it we can delete the over-printing, the text that is  objectionable, but I object to "The Homeland - a  Satellite Image of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  Territories".  That's borderline breaches, in my  submission, because it's totally irrelevant.  Well, it's certainly not going to inflame anyone.  I  don't think that I'm going to be influenced by a  little editorializing.  I don't see any real problem  with it.  WILLMS:  That's not the point at all, my lord.  The point is  that it's not evidence in any way, shape or form and  it shouldn't be admitted.  It's simply not evidence at  all.  I'm not suggesting that your lordship might be  inflamed by it.  I'm suggesting that it's not evidence  and it has no place in a court of law.  THE COURT:  Are you urging its inclusion in the exhibit, Mr.  Rush?  MR. RUSH:  I see nothing wrong with it.  I'll direct the  witness' attention to it.  Perhaps your lordship  should hear the evidence before --  THE COURT  MR. 18137  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  2 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  3 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  4 MR. RUSH:  5 Q   Could you show that to Mr. Skoda?  I wonder, Mr.  6 Skoda, if you could place that in the map atlas at the  7 appropriate place?  This was prepared by you, Mr.  8 Skoda?  9 A   Yes, it was.  10 Q   And the over-printing, that is to say, the printing  11 that appears at the top, was that prepared by you as  12 well?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   The map that's to your right, the -- what appears to  15 be a photographic enlargement, was that similarily a  16 photographic enlargement of map 24 as the previous  17 enlargement?  18 A   It was.  19 Q   And the material that appears vertically on the  20 left-hand side of that, is that the same or different  21 than the material that appears across the top of map  22 24 in Exhibit 358?  23 A   It's the same material rearranged slightly.  24 Q   All right.  And can you tell us in general terms what  25 this map 24 depicts, please?  26 A   It provides a satellite image, an objective  27 description of the terrain or the landscape of the  28 study area.  The idea was to provide such an objective  29 because we had a whole lot of maps that had very  30 specific, very specialized, very thematic information,  31 but what I felt was appropriate was to provide an  32 objective general information about the landscape.  A  33 satellite image provides such an information.  34 Q   And you will explain in the upper left-hand corner how  35 the information was generated?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And is this information that you -- is the means by  38 which this type of information is generated known and  39 utilized by cartographers in Canada?  40 A   It's a fairly standard procedure to make the satellite  41 images available for general inspection, yes.  42 Q   And you have direct and personal knowledge about the  43 means by which satellite imagery is generated and  44 reproduced in the form such as map 24?  45 A   Indeed.  46 MS. KOENIGSBERG: It might assist my friend, we have an admission  47 on this, of course, and we don't have to prove it.  We 1813?  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  THE COURT  5  6  7  MR. RUSH:  8  THE COURT  9  10  MR. RUSH:  11  Q  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  Q  28  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  had an admission on the other material as well, but  this particular one, this entire means, there's no  issue at all.  :  All right.  Well, I'm not sure that it isn't useful  information for me to hear.  I think that I will  benefit from some instruction on this.  And Mr. -- thank you, my lord.  :  I'm glad to be reminded that I don't have to concern  myself with admissibility.  Well, I'm not sure that you don't, my lord, but  anyway, I'm always grateful for another admission.  Mr. Skoda, just with reference to the satellite  image on map 24, what are the physical phenomena that  are discernible by reference to this satellite image?  It's possible for a general viewer to recognize a  network of interconnected valleys, mountains, fairly  prominent ice caps, or a series of ice caps, lakes,  and perhaps some other features of linear nature which  are generally obvious on a satellite image.  And —  Perhaps the other aspect which may be also obvious on  inspection is that the area between the valley floors  and the ice-capped mountains or snow-capped mountains  are green.  That indicates a general healthy  vegetation cover.  All right.  And on the right-hand side of the map  there are a number of what appear to be small squarish  looking brown patches.  What does that represent, if  you know?  That indicates clear-cut logging.  And can you -- do you cross-reference that to  anything?  We have a legend on the map that explains a number of  these features that are apparent on the mosaic.  Is that the document or the representation that's  entitled "Key to map images" at the top?  Yes, it is.  Yes.  And the sources that are indicated here on the  right-hand side of map 24, Mr. Skoda, do they  represent the origin of the information which led to  map 24?  That is correct, yes.  And what can you say about these sources?  Are they --  how can you assess the confidence level that you place  on those sources?  Entirely reliable.  Most reliable objective 18139  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  presentation of the facts that were gathered.  Q   Okay.  All right.  And Mr. Skoda, the title which —  to which objection has been taken "The Homeland - a  Satellite Image of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  Territories", how was this title arrived at, if you  know?  A  As a cartographic designer we often require a  statement in a heading that summarizes the gist of the  presentation.  We dealt here with a fairly objective  presentation of terrain of landscape, but that  landscape represented valleys where people lived.  That landscape represents area where people settled  and made their living, functioned as a community, and  since that was the general background for the  presentation, it seemed appropriate to identify that  satellite image as a homeland.  Q   And whose choice was that?  A   It was mine.  MR. RUSH:   Now, my lord, I'd like to have map 24 as the next  map in the map atlas series as 358-24.  MR. WILLMS:  Well, my lord, there's been an admission on the  other parts of the map.  The only thing I object to,  and I've stated my reason, I say it's not evidence in  any way, shape or form, and doesn't belong in a court  of law as "The Homeland".  And, as I said, I'm not  suggesting your lordship will be swayed or inflamed by  it, it's just not evidence.  THE COURT:  Well —  MR. RUSH:  Surely —  THE COURT:  -- certainly the map can be admitted into evidence,  and unlike our American neighbours we can't strike  words out of the record, and I don't think that this  document needs to be defaced or mutilated or edited by  crossing out the title.  I do not think the title is  part of the evidence in this case, but the map itself  may be the next exhibit which will be in the same  series as the others which makes it -- what is it,  3 --  MR. RUSH:  358-24, my lord.  THE COURT:  Yes.  (EXHIBIT 358-24:  Map 24 in the Map Atlas)  MR. RUSH:  Now —  THE COURT:  Is it convenient to take the morning adjournment,  Mr. Rush?  MR. RUSH:  Yes. 18140  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  2 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  Court stands adjourned for a  3 short recess.  4  5  6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR THE MORNING RECESS)  7  8 I hereby certify the foregoing to  9 be a true and accurate transcript  10 of the proceedings herein to the  11 best of my skill and ability.  12  13  14 Tanita S. French  15 Official Reporter  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 18141  L. Skoda (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  THE  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  to  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO THE MORNING BREAK)  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  COURT:  Mr. Rush.  RUSH:  My lord, I'd like to file another notice to admit and  response by the provincial defendant dated cover  letter of Mr. Grant's June 28 containing the notice  admit with reference to Map number 1, and I believe -  COURT:  You're putting them both in as one exhibit?  RUSH:  No, I'll put them in separately.  The notice to  admit --  COURT:  Notice to admit Map 1?  RUSH:  No, it is the inset in Map number 1.  And I'll be  coming to that in a moment.  The inset is called  "Retreat of the Recent Ice-sheet in British Columbia.  COURT:  That Map 1 is —  RUSH:  It's the "Ancient times - the arrival about 10 000  years BP."  COURT:  Oh, yes.  All right.  RUSH:  And it's only with respect to the inset that I'm  directing your lordship's attention in the notice to  admit.  What exhibit number is that large --  1052, my lord.  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT:  no.  REGISTRAR:  Yes.  COURT:  Yes, 1074,  RUSH:  Thank you.  (EXHIBIT 1074  (EXHIBIT 1075  All right.  The notice then will be Exhibit 1074  and the response of the province 1075.  NOTICE TO ADMIT)  RESPONSE OF AGBC)  RUSH:  Q  Mr. Skoda, would you please direc  Exhibit 1052, which is Map number  series, and in particular to the  shown and entitled "Retreat of th  Who prepared  A  RUSH:  COURT  MR. RUSH:  British Columbia.  inset?  I did.  And the purpose  :  I'm sorry, Mr.  one is the inset,  No, my lord, it should be the on  corner of Map number 1.  Yes, in  entitled "Retreat of the Recent I  t your attention to  1 of the atlas map  inset which is there  e Recent Ice-sheet in  and designed that  of that?  Rush, I'm not up  the one at the  to speed yet.  Which  top?  e in the right-hand  the right-hand corner  ce-sheet in British 18142  L. Skoda (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Columbia," right underneath the title.  2 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  All right.  Thank you.  3 MR. RUSH:  And it's perhaps somewhat more discernible by its  4 enlargement on 1052.  5 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  6 MR. RUSH:  7 Q   Referring to that, the purpose of that, Mr. Skoda?  8 A  Was to illustrate the extent of the ice cover or the  9 extent of the retreat at the time of about 10,000  10 years ago when the general map presents information.  11 Q   And the source of the information for that, please?  12 A  Was a federal government publication, a map, very  13 large document.  14 MR. RUSH:  All right.  And I'm showing you —  15 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, at this point I would like the witness to  16 say how he knows that this is the source of the  17 information other than reading it from the bottom of  18 the document?  If that's where he got the information,  19 that's fine, but the inset is taken from the text.  If  20 you look at the notice to admit of the plaintiffs,  21 there's a photocopy of a page taken from the textbook,  22 and it was my understanding that all that this witness  23 did was just recreated the photocopy from the  24 textbook.  I don't know if your lordship has that in  25 the notice to admit.  26 THE COURT:  Well, I just received it this morning for the first  27 time.  What should I be looking at?  28 MR. WILLMS:  In the notice to admit, my lord, the second to the  29 last page, there's a -- it looks like a photocopy from  30 a textbook.  31 THE COURT:  I should be looking at the notice to admit?  32 MR. WILLMS:  Yes.  You see, my lord, as I understood it, we got  33 this notice to admit, and the document that we're  34 supposed to admit authenticity of is attached to the  35 notice to admit.  3 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  37 MR. WILLMS:  And so when I read the notice to admit, I saw that  38 there's a claim that this inset map is in Prest's  39 publication.  4 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  41 MR. WILLMS:  That's how I read it because this is the only map  42 that was attached to the notice to admit.  4 3 THE COURT:  Yes.  44 MR. WILLMS:  So as I understand it, this is what the witness  45 used to make map 1052.  At least that's what the  46 notice to admit says to us anyway.  So I'd just like  47 the witness to confirm that.  If that isn't the case, 18143  L. Skoda (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  MR.  RUSH:  4  5  THE  COURT  6  MR.  RUSH:  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  THE  COURT  20  MR.  RUSH:  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  then I've got an objection because there's something  going on here that we have no notice of.  Well, if my friend would permit me to further examine  the witness, I think this can be cleared up.  :  Yes.  All right.  It seems to revolve around a misconstruction of the  word "text" on everybody's part.  Mr. Skoda, I'd like you to refer to the inset on  Map number 1 and explain what the source of the  information is and the language used by you to  describe the source and what you intended to mean by  that?  Well, the source is a map, as I mentioned earlier, and  the author of that map is Prest, publication was by  Geological Survey of Canada, date 1969.  That's where  the information on which this inset was based came  from.  :  Yes.  All right.  Is there any reference intended to be conveyed that  this inset was derived from a text in the sense of a  textbook or a larger book form of publication?  There is none.  All right.  And what is the map that the source of  this information is derived from?  Which map?  The map that led to the inset.  Well, I see a copy of the map in front of counsel.  All right.  I want to show you a map, and I'll ask you  if this is that source?  Yeah, this is the source.  All right.  And this document is entitled "Retreat of  Wisconsin and Recent Ice in North America," and it  gives as its -- gives as its source or description of  its author, and I'm quoting, "Ice-marginal positions  by V.K. Prest, 1969, Ice-margin shading by Surveys and  Mapping Branch, Cartography by Geological Survey of  Canada."  And the Geological Survey of Canada is  indicated as a department of Energy, Mines &  Resources.  Now, is this document the source of the  inset that is on Map 1?  Yes, it is the source of the information on the inset.  All right.  And in terms of your use of this source,  did you -- did you utilize any cartographic  methodology in the design of the inset from this  source? 18144  L. Skoda (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A  Well, the procedure that was used here was to accept  2 the contours that indicate the position of the ice  3 front as defined by the publication and then enhance  4 that information by showing where the ice front was  5 about 10,000 years before present.  On that inset  6 there are small sort of islands indicating where the  7 ice was supposed to be according to Prest's  8 interpretation.  That was the only cartographic  9 enhancement other than colouring the map to show the  10 areas which were not covered by ice.  11 Q   Now, if you refer to, please, the inset on Map 1, in  12 the overprinting there is what appears to be a legend  13 showing a 10.5 reference and green shading, and who  14 added this material -- who provided this material?  15 A   Sorry, can I ask the counsel to direct me again where  16 to look?  17 Q   Do you have the inset?  18 A   Yes, I'm looking at the inset.  19 Q   And you see to the left-hand side of it underneath the  20 word "retreat" --  21 A   Yeah.  22 Q   -- there are two boxes?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And who -- what is the source of the information for  25 those two boxes that appears beside those?  26 A  Well, that's my explanation as to what symbols I used  27 on that map to convey the information that was derived  28 from the publication that I referred to before.  29 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  I'd like the map to be marked, my lord,  30 as the next exhibit.  31 THE COURT:  Who provided the refugium on the right-hand side or  32 southern side of the inset map?  That doesn't seem to  33 come from the Geological Survey of Canada map, does  34 it, or does it?  35 THE WITNESS:  Yes, it does, your lordship.  36 THE COURT:  Does it?  37 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  The scales — if I direct you to the scales,  38 that might perhaps explain the apparent anomaly.  The  39 inset map is very small compared to the very large  40 map, original map --  41 THE COURT:  Yes.  42 THE WITNESS:  -- and so the sudden refugium would appear to be  43 or should be a long way from where we are viewing it,  44 but because of the small scale -- I direct your  45 lordship to the name Columbia River on the right-hand  46 side.  4 7 THE COURT:  Yes. 18145  L. Skoda (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE WITNESS:  And on the main map, on the large map, if you do  2 have it in front of you, that Columbia River is  3 identified and is in an ice-free area on the regional  4 map.  5 THE COURT:  All right.  6 MR. RUSH:  7 Q   Well, would it be fair to say, Mr. Skoda, that what  8 appears in white on Mr. Prest's geological survey map  9 appears in green on yours?  10 A   That's correct.  11 THE COURT:  Is there a date that — for this map, the inset,  12 "ice-margin positions during the last ice-sheet  13 retreat..."?  Oh, I see.  So it goes from the -- what  14 do these numbers indicate, 14.5 and 15.5?  This was  15 all explained to me, but I've forgotten it already.  16 THE WITNESS:  Those indicate thousands of years before present.  17 THE COURT:  Yes.  18 THE WITNESS:  And the most recent ice front represented on the  19 map is eight and a half thousand years ago, and the  20 most ancient ice front is I think about 15,000 years,  21 if I remember correctly, on the large map.  22 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  All right.  What do you say about  23 the inset map, Mr. Willms?  24 MR. WILLMS:  Well, it's not the inset.  I think my friend wants  25 to mark this map, and had he sent it over --  26 THE COURT:  Oh, this one here?  27 MR. WILLMS:  Yes.  2 8 THE COURT:  Oh, I see.  29 MR. WILLMS:  Had he sent that one along with the notice to admit  30 instead of the other one, we probably wouldn't be  31 dealing with this right now.  I don't have any problem  32 with this being marked.  33 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Okay.  The next exhibit then.  How  34 should it be described?  35 MR. RUSH:  Perhaps just in terms of its description that's  36 attributed to it as --  37 THE COURT:  Geological Survey of Canada.  38 MR. RUSH:  Geological Survey of Canada map entitled "Retreat of  39 Wisconsin and Recent Ice in North America."  40 MR. WILLMS:  "Speculative ice-marginal positions" —  41 MR. RUSH:  -- "during recession of last ice-sheet complex."  42 THE COURT:  Speculative what is it?  43 MR. RUSH:  This is a sub-note here.  "Speculative ice-marginal  44 positions during recession of last ice-sheet complex."  45 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1076, my lord.  4 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  47 18146  L. Skoda (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  (EXHIBIT 1076 - MAP ENTITLED "RETREAT OF WISCONSIN AND  RECENT ICE IN NORTH AMERICA")  MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  THE COURT:  Let me see it for a moment.  What does the blue  indicate?  Blue is ice, is it?  THE WITNESS:  It's a representation of the ice front at the time  indicated by the black contour that is marked by  numbers that refer to thousands of years.  THE COURT:  Yes.  So it's suggesting that at the time of the  map, which is 8500 BP, the whole length of the Yukon  River, for example, was ice free?  Is that what it  says?  WITNESS:  Correct.  Actually, even further back.  COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  THE  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  RUSH:  Q  A  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  All right.  Now, Mr. Skoda, if you will, please, I  just want to direct your attention to the enlargement  of Map 3, Map 22, and 23, and if you can just confirm  for me that these maps represent enlargements of maps  contained in your -- in the map atlas by those same  map numbers?  I can confirm that.  Now, my lord, I would propose marking these  enlargements of the maps by the series that began  Exhibit 1052, and I just propose that we do it Exhibit  1052-1, -3, etcetera.  :  Yes.  And the ones that are here are Map 1, 3 -- excuse  me — Map 1, 2, 3, 20, 22, 23, and 24.  :  These are the large size, yes.  All right.  And  they'll be exhibits -- what number are you suggesting  for them?  1052 was the exhibit number attributed to Map number  1, and I suggest we just run a series under that  exhibit number.  :  Yes.  All right.  So they'll be Exhibits 1052-1,  -2, -3, -20, -22, -23, -24.  (EXHIBIT 1052-1 -  (EXHIBIT 1052-2 -  (EXHIBIT 1052-3 -  (EXHIBIT 1052-20  (EXHIBIT 1052-22  (EXHIBIT 1052-23  (EXHIBIT 1052-24  ENLARGED MAP -  ENLARGED MAP -  ENLARGED MAP -  - ENLARGED MAP  - ENLARGED MAP  - ENLARGED MAP  - ENLARGED MAP  ANCIENT TIMES)  ECOLOGY)  SOAPBERRY)  - FISH)  - FISHING SITES)  - THE SALMON)  - THE HOMELAND) 18147  L. Skoda (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  RUSH:  Q  A  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  Thank you.  Now, my lord, I'm going to direct the  witness's attention to the base map of the small  overlay series, and this is to your left-hand side on  the easel.  It is map 646.  I'm not directing the  witness's attention to any of the overlays.  Mr. Skoda, if you would just please look at this  base map of Exhibit 646, and can you tell me from what  is -- what -- from what is this base map derived?  Okay.  The base map itself is identical to the base  map in the atlas at the scale of 1 to 4 million.  We  were requested to re-orient the map, and so we placed  it north up and then repositioned the names.  So  that's the only difference between the base maps in  the atlas and the base map that are being shown now.  All right.  Thank you.  Now, Mr. Skoda, I want to ask  you, if you will, please, to look at the large overlay  series map, which is Exhibit 646, in which case I must  be wrong, my lord.  The little series must be 647.  :  Yes, I think that's right.  So the large overlay map series is 646.  And, Mr.  Skoda, I direct your attention, please, to the base  map of 646, and could you just tell his lordship how  the base map of large overlay series Exhibit 646 was  prepared?  Your lordship, it was necessary according to our task  to put together a base map at the scale of 1 to  250,000, and that base map was to be opaque because it  was to display or provide a base on which overlays  were to be presented.  The only way to produce such a  base map was -- or the most effective way, I should  say, was to take printed maps from the NTS series and  put them together to provide a continuous presentation  of the study area.  We had a couple of problems in  doing that, and perhaps some of those problems are  obvious in the base, because the paper copies were  unstable, therefore the boundaries of individual NTS  sheets that form parallels of latitudes and meridians  didn't quite connect properly, and there are gaps  between edges of the sheets that represent this kind  of a problem.  We also had a problem with one map.  The  information that was coming to us was defined on the  basis of a map published by the provincial government.  That map, unfortunately, was out of print, and we had  to substitute a map that was produced of the same area 18148  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  L. Skoda (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  by the federal government agency.  These two maps were  of different vintage, and we had a problem with an  information in one area which was quite different  between the two maps.  That was the other problem we  had.  It was probably due to the fact that the maps  were produced with different control, and, therefore,  the information that was published was slightly  different.  Q   Can you say anything in general terms about  difficulties encountered in matching maps of different  series?  A   Yes.  It is a fact that in general terms when maps are  produced they are produced under certain control,  that's the trigonometric stations that control the  position of the map, and as more control is -- is  established, there is a more precise representation of  the information, so that when new maps are prepared,  it is always mandatory to make sure that the new  information is checked against the edge of the map  with the information presented previously on an older  map, and if it's within the error of the publication,  that error is adjusted automatically.  If it's major  difference, which perhaps is induced by the fact that  more appropriate or more accurate control was used,  then that information would not be touched because it  would be too severe a manipulation of the data.  Q   Now, Mr. Skoda, in terms of the maps utilized for the  construction of the base map on Exhibit 946, what were  the two series used?  A   They were both NTS series, but one was produced by the  provincial mapping agency, and other was the Energy,  Mines & Resources, which is the federal agency.  Now,  I don't recall what the provincial agency was called.  It could have been environment -- Ministry of  Environment or perhaps Ministry of Lands and Surveys.  There seemed to be a change in that ministry name  quite often.  MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  Those are my questions.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Willms.  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLMS:  Q   My lord.  Mr. Skoda, when were you first retained by  or on behalf of the plaintiffs to do cartographic  work?  A   In 1986.  Q   Were you retained by letter or by a contract?  A  We were retained by an agreement and subsequently by a 18149  L. Skoda (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  RUSH:  contract.  Do you have that contract?  I do.  Do you have it with you?  No, I don't.  For the cartographic work that Canadian Cartographies  has done, what are the total billings to the  plaintiffs for that work, approximately?  Perhaps 300 —  MR. RUSH:  Excuse me.  My lord, I can see a rationale for  probing an expert's billings providing the court with  an expert opinion in a subject that is other than  technical, and in this case the underlying information  is fundamentally of a technical nature, and,  therefore, my friend is asking a question of what it  had cost to produce this type of mapping, and I wonder  what the relevance of that is in terms of probing the  value, if you will, of the opinion, which I think was  the basis upon which your lordship decided to permit  the questioning in this area previously.  And while I  can see it in that respect, this is essentially a  question designed at what is the cost of preparing a  map from a technical perspective, and I think it's --  I really think it's irrelevant to the -- to the  proceedings.  WILLMS:  Well, my lord —  COURT:  Mr. Willms.  WILLMS:  -- the witness has given evidence that he  personally put interpretations and put them on as part  of his cartographic expertise in explaining what he  was depicting.  Wouldn't you have to challenge something that's  depicted before the price he was paid would become  relevant?  MR. WILLMS:  Well, my lord, there is a challenge.  You'll see  the notice to admit does not admit the overprinting of  Indian names, place-names for example, does not admit  some of the opinion evidence that graces each sheet,  some of which was written by this witness.  RUSH:  None.  COURT:  Well, unless there's some objection to what was  written though, Mr. Willms, it doesn't seem to me that  it matters what he was paid.  If there isn't any -- if  you're challenging some of the labelling or some of  the designations, then I would have to give the matter  some further thought, but at the moment it doesn't  seem to me to be a matter that's going to advance the  MR.  THE  MR.  THE COURT  MR.  THE 18150  L. Skoda (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 resolution of these issues in any way.  2 MR. WILLMS:  Well —  3 THE COURT:  You see, a good part of what the company was paid is  4 going to be technical cost that has nothing to do with  5 the area that you're seeking to explore.  To be a  6 useful figure, it would have to be broken out into the  7 non-production cost, wouldn't it?  8 MR. WILLMS:  Well, that would be helpful, my lord.  We don't  9 have the contract.  My friends haven't given me the  10 contract with Mr. Skoda as they have with other  11 witnesses.  I don't know why.  We know that Mr. Skoda  12 has a contract, but I don't have it.  Maybe it's all  13 answered in the contract.  But I don't know any other  14 way to get at this point than this way.  Frankly,  15 maybe it's set out in the contract.  Maybe it's X  16 dollars fee per day plus costs, but I don't know.  I  17 don't have the contract.  18 THE COURT:  Well, have you asked for the contract?  19 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, letters have been written as recently as  20 last Friday.  I didn't expect to see Mr. Skoda in  21 light of the exchange of the notices to admit.  We had  22 received no letter from my friend setting out what  23 opinion evidence in addition to what we'd admitted  24 they wanted to lead from Mr. Skoda.  I have to admit  25 that we did not send our standard letters in respect  26 of Mr. Skoda because in light of the non-delivery of  27 any extra opinion last Thursday, we thought it wasn't  28 necessary.  It wasn't until Saturday morning, when I  29 got into the office, that I got my friend's letter  30 that Mr. Skoda was indeed going to be called as a  31 witness.  Now --  32 THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Willms, I think that until you challenge  33 something that's on the -- on the maps or question the  34 accuracy of them in some way, and in some serious way,  35 I don't think what he billed for it is going to be of  36 any assistance.  If there's an issue about the  37 reliability or the bone fides of any of the material  38 that's been displayed, then it might become relevant,  39 but until that happens, at the very least, I would not  40 be disposed to order the disclosure of this  41 information.  42 MR. WILLMS:  Well I'll come back to that, my lord.  43 THE COURT:  All right.  44 MR. WILLMS:  I do request the contract though, my lord.  And  45 it's my submission that there's no -- in light of your  46 lordship's earlier ruling on what counsels'  47 obligations were in terms of a list of documents in 18151  L. Skoda (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR.  the possession of a witness, there's no obligation on  us to ask for anything until my friends produce a  list, and that was part of your lordship's order.  We  got no list.  We fully anticipated that Mr. Skoda's  attendance at this trial would be unnecessary as late  as Friday afternoon, and I don't think my friend can  duck behind the fact that we didn't specifically ask  for information from a witness we didn't expect.  Is there any problem about the contract, Mr. Rush?  No.  I should express to my friend that I only  learned of the existence of such a contract this  morning.  Yes.  And furthermore, I can't really see why my friend is  so concerned about the opinions.  The opinions are in  the maps all over this courtroom.  Yes.  Well, that's why I'm not disposed to get into  the area unless there's some serious challenge of what  is on the maps that have been prepared.  But if  there's no objection, I don't see why the contract  shouldn't be produced.  WILLMS:  Q   Have you ever done on-the-ground survey work?  A   Ever?  Yes.  Yes.  All right.  Did you attend at any time in the claim  area in respect of the work that you've done in this  case?  I don't understand the question did I attend.  Did you attend in any of the land claim territory?  You know you've drawn these boundaries on each map,  which purport to be the boundaries of Gitksan and  Wet'suwet'en territory --  Yes.  -- correct?  At any time after you were retained did you attend  at any location within those -- within that claim  territory?  I visited Hazelton, but perhaps that's not the  question.  All right.  When did you visit Hazelton?  In spring of 1986.  Is that the only time that you have been up in the  claim area?  A   No.  I was in the area subsequently.  Q   When was that?  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q 18152  L. Skoda (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 A   That was '87.  But perhaps I should say that even  2 though I was in the claim area, I was not necessarily  3 there in connection with the project.  4 Q   All right.  Well, that was going to be my next  5 question.  Did you meet any of the plaintiffs when you  6 were there in '86 or '87 in respect of this -- the  7 evidence that you're giving?  8 A   I met with the people on the project, yes.  9 Q   And who did you meet with?  10 A   Neil Sterritt, Marvin George, for example.  11 Q   Anyone else?  12 A   Yeah, the research people, such as Susan Marsden,  13 Richard Overstall.  14 Q   Was this in '86?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Was this prior to you, Canadian Cartographies, being  17 retained?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And then you say that the description of the work that  20 you were to do was set out in the contract that you  21 ultimately signed?  22 A  Most of the work, the gist of the work.  23 Q   Have you determined at any time whether any or all of  24 the boundaries that you have laid out on the 358  25 series can be laid out on the ground?  26 A   I'm not really sure what counsel is asking me.  27 Q   Well, you've done survey work to survey lines on the  2 8 ground?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   All right.  Have you taken a map before out to the  31 field to determine whether or not a boundary or a  32 line on the map can be physically laid out in the  33 field?  Have you ever done that?  34 A   Yes.  Location surveying, yes.  35 Q   Did you take any of your maps up to the field, and I'm  36 talking about the 358 series, to see whether or not  37 any of the boundary lines that you drew on the 358  38 series could be laid out on the ground?  39 A   The answer to that, no is no, but I really fail to see  40 what that would achieve.  It's possible to locate  41 information on the map on the ground.  Can counsel  42 help me there?  I don't really understand why you  43 asking me that.  44 Q   Did you prepare drafts of any of the maps for the 358  45 series or did you just do one final version?  46 A  We prepared a final graphics from the information  47 that -- that we gathered for the purpose, yes. 18153  L. Skoda (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   But just for example, you're looking at -- let's look  2 at the map 2, 358-2.  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   Did you do draft sketches or outlines before you  5 prepared the final version?  6 A  Well, perhaps I should describe the process to the  7 counsel.  Information that comes to us is in such a  8 form that it's usable presumably, in some cases lines  9 on another map.  It is our function to take that  10 statement as is because it has authority of a  11 scientific investigation, take those lines and locate  12 them on our base map the most precise possible way.  13 Q   All right.  So you take the information that comes in  14 from whatever source, and you put it on to your base  15 map --  16 A   Yeah.  17 Q   -- correct?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Do you then send that back to the plaintiffs or their  20 counsel for their comments on what you've done?  21 A  What we normally do is that we continue with the  22 production process, and when the transformation of the  23 information to the new scale and all the design  24 components have been completed and the final graphics  25 have been prepared, we make a proof of what we've  26 done, and that proof is sent back to the author of the  27 thematic information to verify, agree with, find  28 possible spelling mistakes.  29 Q   So, for example, looking at 358-2, after you prepared  30 that you would make a proof and send it to Miss  31 Haeussler?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And she would send it back with comments?  34 A   yes.  35 Q   And did that happen?  36 Alt did, yes.  37 Q   Do you still have those proofs?  38 A   No.  Information -- information that's produced during  39 the work is normally sent back with the original  40 information to the contributors.  41 Q   All right.  42 A   The authors.  43 Q   So that any of the maps, for example Map 1, 358-1,  44 which is the ancient times --  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   -- map, you would prepare a proof, you sent the proof  47 to Miss Marsden, she sent it back to you with 18154  L. Skoda (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 comments, you produced the final and sent everything  2 else back to her?  3 A  Miss Marsden's project is different to the procedure  4 that we described previously.  Miss Marsden's did not  5 have anything defined in line form.  She had concepts,  6 she had descriptions, she had sketch ideas.  It was  7 our function to put it in some form that we understood  8 reflected her opinion, her findings.  Any of those  9 definitions would have been passed back to her to make  10 sure that we are continuing on the lines that she  11 agrees with.  12 Q   Okay.  Other than the NTS series that you described  13 that you used to produce the base maps, and I think  14 you mentioned the DIA maps, do you still have any of  15 the information or copies of the information that you  16 used to make any of the 358 series maps, or did you  17 send them all back?  18 A   This one here?  19 Q   All the three — the whole —  20 A   The original maps?  21 Q   The whole series.  22 A  Well, if it's NTS information, we have that as part of  23 our resource material.  We have that on file.  When  24 the maps are used up, we go and buy another copy kind  25 of thing.  So that information exists in our -- in our  26 map library.  27 Q   No, I mean other than the NTS maps --  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   -- and other than the DIA maps and other than  30 government maps that you used to produce base maps,  31 you also received information from people noted on the  32 maps that gave you the information to put on the map,  33 correct?  34 A   Urn hum.  35 Q   All right.  You have to say yes or no.  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   Do you have any of that information still in your  38 possession?  39 A   No.  The general procedure is when the project's  40 finished, the information is sent back to the  41 originator.  42 Q   All right.  And you followed that process here?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   Now, did you communicate in writing or receive written  45 communications from the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en Tribal  46 Council or Richard Overstall?  47 A   Occasionally, yes. 18155  L. Skoda (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  Q  2  A  3  MR.  WILLMS  4  THE  COURT:  5  6  MR.  WILLMS  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  MR.  WILLMS  18  19  THE  COURT:  20  MR.  WILLMS  21  Q  22  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Do you still have those?  Yes, some.  :  All right.  I'd ask for those too, my lord.  What is your suggestion, Mr. Willms, that these  materials be obtained at lunch-time?  Well, my lord, if they can be obtained.  I don't know.  I understand that he's in Vancouver.  I'd assumed that  he would just have a file folder, a job file folder.  Maybe I'm wrong.  But is your correspondence related to the work  that you did for the plaintiffs in a particular file  folder or filing cabinet?  Yeah, it's in a folder.  And so it's easy for you to retrieve it?  Could be done, yes.  :  All right.  As soon as the witness conveniently  can, my lord.  All right.  Did you communicate in writing or receive written  communications from Dr. Hatler, Mr. Chilton, Miss  Haeussler, Susan Marsden, Mike Morrell or Marvin  George?  And I'm talking about non-map, just a letter  back and forth.  Transmittal letters?  Transmittal letters, yes.  Probably notes sending information back, please change  something, that kind of thing.  Right.  Yes.  And you still have those?  No, I don't.  Those all went back?  If they referred to the -- to the material on the map,  then those would stay with the map.  You didn't keep a copy?  No.  Dealing with the series -- if I can put Dr. Hatler's  series of maps in with Miss Haeussler's series, you  know that Dr. Hatler's series is the animal  distribution, Miss Haeussler's is the berry  distribution, the series of maps?  Yes.  All right.  Can you describe the type of information  that you received from Dr. Hatler and Miss Haeussler  to prepare those maps?  Starting with Hatler, information was in form of an  overlay, a transparent overlay that fitted a 1 to 1 18156  L. Skoda (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 million map, which is equivalent to the NTS series.  2 That's the international map of the world published by  3 the federal government.  That overlay had the  4 boundaries of the distributions.  5 Q   On it?  6 A   On it.  Information that -- that were received from  7 Miss Haeussler was in the form of paper copies marked  8 and coloured with crayons that provided the  9 information for the distribution of the berries and  10 the biogeoclimatic zones.  11 Q   All right.  How did you orient the material that you  12 received from Dr. Hatler to the base map that you had?  13 A   I remember we had a particularly tough task because  14 the overlays didn't fit too well the bases that Hatler  15 used, and so we had to take extra precaution and went  16 through extra work to make sure that we understood how  17 best to fit it to the bases and then transfer the  18 information to our base.  19 Q   But when you got the overlay from Dr. Hatler --  2 0 A   Yeah.  21 Q   -- were there geographic features on the overlay that  22 you keyed on to transfer the information on the  23 overlay on to your map?  24 A   Yes.  Not geographic features.  That was graticule  25 intersections, that is, the intersections of the  26 parallels of latitude and meridians as little crosses.  27 Q   And do you know where Dr. Hatler received the overlays  28 that he sent to you?  Did you prepare them for him?  29 A   No.  He prepared them.  30 Q   He prepared them?  31 A   That was his work, yes.  32 Q   All right.  Including putting on the bearing notes  33 that you've --  34 A   The little crosses.  35 Q   The little crosses.  36 A   Registration marks.  37 Q   So that came to you from Dr. Hatler?  38 A   Correct.  39 Q   And how about Miss Haeussler, same thing?  40 A   No, Miss Haeussler's was a paper copy which had the  41 background information on it --  42 Q   Yes.  43 A   -- as well.  It had the base map information as well  44 as her own information superimposed, so it was very  45 easy to recognize where her lines are located in  46 relation to the topographic detail, and we can then  47 transfer with great accuracy her lines to our base 18157  L. Skoda (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 maps.  2 Q   Okay.  She was using some NTS, is that your --  3 A   Correct, yes.  1 to 1 million series, yes.  4 Q   All right.  Now, did you use any information from  5 Marvin George in preparing the 358 series?  6 A   Yes, we used the definition of the outer boundary of  7 the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en territories.  8 Q   And what you got from him was a -- what did you get?  9 A  A large map.  10 Q   A large map?  11 A  About 1 to 250,000 scale.  12 Q   Susan Marsden I think you described already.  You  13 received notes from her?  14 A   Sketches, notes, text.  15 Q   And that was all returned?  16 A   It was all returned, yes.  If it wasn't returned, then  17 it wouldn't have been kept because we don't normally  18 keep any information which is of an intermittent  19 nature.  20 MR. WILLMS:  Madam registrar, do you have Exhibit 1051?  21 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes.  22 MR. WILLMS:  23 Q   Could you turn in exhibit -- this is from Miss  24 Marsden.  Mr. Skoda, could you turn in Exhibit 1051,  25 and you might want to -- you might want to have Map 1  26 in front of you at the same time, 358-1.  Did you use  27 the map at 1051-16?  You'll see at the very bottom  28 there's a note at the bottom:  "Lou, please call me  29 when you get this.  Thanks, Susan."  You have to sort  30 of turn it sideways.  No, tab 16.  Sorry.  31 A   Yeah.  32 Q   Did you use that in preparing 358-1?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   All right.  And what part did -- what part of the map  35 did you use -- did you prepare 358-1 from from that?  36 You'll see that there's two parts to 358-1.  There's a  37 large map.  And maybe if I can point you to 1052 here,  38 there's the inset "Creation of the Fireweed Clan" down  39 in the lower left-hand corner, and then there's the  40 main, if I can call it, main map.  Which part did you  41 use that for?  42 A   Both.  I should point out that this was the initial  43 information in the sketch map form which started the  44 cycle of iterations where we -- as we went through we  45 were able to more precisely determine what Miss  46 Marsden had in mind when she was formulating her  47 concepts.  So this is an initial contribution to the 1815?  L. Skoda (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 preparation of the map.  2 Q   And how did that process work?  Was Miss Marsden down  3 in Vancouver with you?  4 A   No, she wasn't.  She was up north in Hazelton, and we  5 exchanged notes in this way.  This I would regard as a  6 note from her.  I would react to it.  I would prepare  7 a sketch that would represent my interpretation of  8 what she sent me, and I would perhaps send it back to  9 her to react to.  We would talk on the phone in  10 between.  11 Q   Mr. Skoda, I'm showing you a map that says in the  12 upper right-hand corner "Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  13 Chiefs Map 1 Ancient times - the arrival 10 000 BP to  14 250 BP."  Is that -- did you prepare that --  15 A   Yes, I did.  16 Q   -- or part of it?  17 What did you use to prepare this?  18 A   Information that I gathered from Miss Marsden,  19 information that perhaps came in the form as  20 demonstrated by the previous exhibit.  21 MR. RUSH:  Excuse me, by letter of June the 30th Mr. Grant  22 delivered this copy -- or this map to my learned  23 friends, and I provided it to Mr. Willms yesterday,  24 and the text of this letter is this:  25  2 6 "Upon a review of my documents it appears that  27 there was an additional draft map of Exhibit  28 358(1) which was prepared and reviewed by Susan  29 Marsden.  My understanding is that this map was  30 actually prepared by Lou Skoda as a culmination  31 of the data referred to by Susan Marsden.  32  33 I am not in a position to be able to copy this  34 map in a manner which would render all the data  35 on the copy.  Therefore I am arranging to have  36 the map with me on Tuesday morning July 3rd,  37 1989.  I anticipate that Lou Skoda may refer to  38 this map in his evidence."  39  40 MR. WILLMS:  41 Q   I thank my friend.  That was most helpful.  Now,  42 returning to the document, Mr. Skoda, which parts of  43 this is your work and which part is Miss Marsden's  44 writing?  45 A   I would say everything is my work except the notes in  46 green.  That is not my handwriting.  47 Q   All right.  Now, there are some notes in green in 18159  L. Skoda (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 boxes.  2 A Yes.  3 Q Those are not your handwriting?  4 A No.  5 Q And then there are some notes -- there are two Post-it  6 notes, the little yellow stickies on the map.  Whose  7 writing is that?  8 A   I don't know.  Not mine.  9 MR. WILLMS:  Not yours.  10 THE COURT:  Is it convenient to adjourn, Mr. Willms?  11 MR. WILLMS:  Yes, my lord.  Perhaps we should just mark the map  12 before we break, my lord, and then we'll carry on  13 after lunch.  Could it be the next exhibit?  14 THE COURT:  Yes.  What's the number?  15 THE REGISTRAR:  1076 — no.  1077.  16 THE COURT:  1077, I think.  17 MR. WILLMS:  77.  18 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes.  Exhibit 1077.  19  20 (EXHIBIT 1077 - MAP TITLED ANCIENT TIMES)  21  22 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Two o'clock.  23 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until  24 two o'clock.  25  2 6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:31 P.M.)  27  28 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  29 a true and accurate transcript of the  30 proceedings herein to the best of my  31 skill and ability.  32  33  34  35 Leanna Smith  36 Official Reporter  37 United Reporting Service Ltd.  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 18160  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  REGISTRAR: Order in court.  COURT:  Willms.  WILLMS:  My lord.  My lord before I carry on with the  cross-examination, I would like to hand up and have  marked my friend's --  COURT:  Before you do that, Mr. Willms, how should I  describe this Exhibit 1077 which we marked just before  lunch.  I suppose the title on it is as good as any,  is it?  WILLMS:  I think the title is as good as any, my lord.  COURT:  All right.  Yes.  All right.  What do you want to do  now?  WILLMS:  My lord, my friend marked a notice to admit as  Exhibit 1071, and I thought just for completeness his  cover letter should be marked as well, and that's what  I handed up, and it could either be 1071-A or it could  be the next --or 1078.  It doesn't matter, but it's  just that you'll see, my lord, that my friend did not  ask us for any admissions with respect to the  over-printed materials.  I just thought that that  should be clear.  COURT:  All right.  Well, this should be 1071-1 then.  There's no objection?  RUSH:  No, I shouldn't think so, but if my friend is really  interested in true completeness, then we'd file all  the preceding correspondence between Mr. Goldie and  myself.  WILLMS:  I'm happy to do that, my lord, if my friend wants  to.  RUSH:  Might as well.  REGISTRAR: 1071-A.  WILLMS:  A?  COURT:  Yes.  Capital A.  (EXHIBIT 1071-A: Covering letter to Exhibit 1071 of  Mr. Rush)  WILLMS:  Q   Thank you, my lord.  Mr. Skoda, the -- you've identified on Exhibit  1077 the writing of Miss Marsden.  Anything underneath  it that looks like a blueprint, is that something that  you put on?  A   I don't think I identified the handwriting as Miss  1  2  3  4  THE  5  THE  6  MR.  7  8  9  THE  10  11  12  13  MR.  14  THE  15  16  MR.  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  THE  26  27  MR.  28  29  30  31  MR.  32  33  MR.  34  THE  35  MR.  36  THE  37  38  39  40  41  MR.  42  43  44  45  46  47 18161  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Marsden's.  I cannot do that.  2 Q   You just said it wasn't yours?  3 A   Right.  4 Q   All right.  Which part of this is information that you  5 put on, and which part is information that someone  6 else put on, aside from the handwriting which you've  7 already given evidence about?  8 A  All the information, other than the green handwriting  9 plus the stamp with red handwriting identifying this  10 document as a court document, I think is all mine.  11 Q   All yours, including the identification of the  12 document at the top?  Was that your --  13 A   The heading?  14 Q   Yes.  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Was that your heading?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   That's not Miss Marsden's heading?  19 A   No.  20 Q   So -- and you're the one that put "10,000 years" on it  21 "BP"?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   That's your heading?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And you got that from your interpretation of the ice  26 sheet map; is that right?  27 A   No.  28 Q   No?  29 A   I got that interpretation from information supplied to  30 me by Miss Marsden.  31 Q   Oh, okay.  And that's where you got the 250 BP as  32 well, from information --  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   -- supplied by Miss Marsden.  Now, you'll note that in  35 the final Exhibit 358-1, and also the larger one which  36 I think is 1052, that it just says "Ancient times -  37 the arrival about 10,000 years BP".  Who told you to  38 take 250 BP off the map?  39 A   That was done in consultation with Miss Marsden.  4 0 Q   All right.  41 A  Maybe I can describe, your lordship, how this map was  42 created.  Would that help?  43 Q   Well, perhaps you could just tell me what she said to  44 you.  Did she just tell you take 250 BP off and change  45 the language?  She told you to do that?  46 A   To that effect, yes.  47 Q   Now, this map Exhibit 1077 is a draft of, if I can 18162  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 call it that way, the body of the larger map; correct,  2 the main body?  3 A   I would not use the term draft.  4 Q   What would you call it?  5 A   It's the first attempt to put the information into  6 graphic form within the context of a base map.  7 Q   So it's the first attempt to put the information into  8 a graphic form for the, if I can call it this, the  9 large part of 1052; correct?  10 A   Correct.  11 Q   It's not -- you've got a reference in the upper  12 right-hand corner to "proposed inset map"; do you see  13 that?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And what you're contemplating there is putting in your  16 ice sheet?  17 A   Ice information, that is correct.  18 Q   And then later on -- when was the fireweed clan added?  19 A   Subsequently.  2 0 Q   All right.  21 A  Actually, may I just amplify on this?  The proposed  22 inset map was in fact for the fireweed, and the -- on  23 this document here there is a little inset map on the  24 bottom left-hand corner.  That inset map was intended  25 for the ice --  2 6 Q   All right.  27 A   -- information.  28 Q   Now, if you still have Exhibit 1051, which is a grey  29 binder, in front of you?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And you've already looked at 1051-16, and this is a  32 document that was prepared by Miss Marsden and sent to  33 you; correct?  34 A   Looks like a copy of it, yes.  35 Q   Yes.  Now, I'm just turning back one tab to 1051-15,  36 which has been identified as another map prepared by  37 Miss Marsden.  Did you see that map?  38 A   There is nothing on the document to identify that I  39 did see it.  I might have.  40 Q   Do you recall what the map looked like or whether you  41 got a map that showed the origin of the fireweed clan  42 as depicted on Exhibit 358 and 1052?  43 A   No, I don't recall the detail.  44 Q   Well, do you recall generally that you got a map --  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   — from —  47 A   Yes. 18163  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   All right.  And you don't have any of those any more?  2 A   No.  3 Q   They all went back to Miss Marsden?  4 A   That's correct.  5 Q   Right.  Now, I'd just like to deal with the inset map  6 on 358-1 now, and perhaps -- madam registrar, I don't  7 need the grey binder 1051 any longer but, Mr. Skoda,  8 if you could turn to 358-1, which should be the  9 first -- your first map?  10 A   Okay.  11 Q   And the inset map where the reference is to Prest,  12 where did you get the text for that?  Is that your  13 opinion in the text there?  By text I mean there are  14 written words, "ice margin positions during the last  15 ice sheet retreat at intervals of 10,000 BP, southern  16 and northern refugia", all of that where you cite  17 Prest as the source.  Is that your language, your  18 interpretation of Prest?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   Where did you -- what does refugia mean?  Perhaps  21 Prest could be put to the witness, and when you refer  22 to Prest you're referring to the large -- that's  23 Exhibit 1076.  Now, just so that we're clear, when you  24 refer to Prest in Exhibit 358 you're not referring to  25 any text, you're referring to this map?  26 A   Correct.  27 Q   Correct.  All right.  Would you please show me where  28 the word refugia appears on the Prest map?  2 9 A   I cannot do that.  30 Q   Why not?  31 A   I'm not aware that there is a word like that.  32 Q   Oh, well, who told you what refugia meant?  33 A   I'm trained in geography.  I had training in geology.  34 I'm familiar with the process of glaciation  35 deglaciation.  The term refugia is a well known  36 technical term that describes an area that was not  37 glaciated.  I used it because of my knowledge of this  3 8 phenomenon.  39 Q   Nobody told you to put that language on there, you put  40 it on yourself?  41 A   Correct.  42 Q   Now, you also put on that document -- Prest says  43 "recent ice" and you say "recent glaciation".  Is that  44 just a mistake?  Did you mean to say -- what I'm  45 referring to here is you say "areas", if you look in  46 your text, third line down, after you use the word  47 "refugia", you have " - areas not glaciated during the 18164  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Wisconsin and recent glaciations." That's what you  2 say, and Prest talks about the Wisconsin and "recent  3 ice".  Do you know whether there's a geological  4 difference between a glaciation and the term Wisconsin  5 ice or recent ice?  Do you know whether there's a  6 geological difference in the terms?  7 A   There shouldn't be a geological difference.  There is  8 a difference in terms of meaning of these words.  One  9 describes a phenomenon, the other describes a process.  10 But the ground resolution of both should be identical.  11 Q   All right.  And that was another interpretation that  12 you were able to use in your skills to add to this; is  13 that right?  14 A   Yes.  15 THE COURT:  I was told this represents 8,500 BP.  16 THE WITNESS:   One of the lines on the map is 8,500 Before  17 Present, yes, your lordship.  18 THE COURT:  Well, where it says "present ice cover", what does  19 that mean?  20 MR. RUSH:  My lord, which map are you referring to now?  21 THE COURT:  Well, this is —  22 MR. RUSH:  The large Prest map?  2 3 THE COURT:  Yes.  24 MR. RUSH:  The witness is not looking at that map.  25 THE COURT:  Oh, sorry, haven't we got the same thing?  26 THE WITNESS:   Is this the map?  27 THE COURT:  We have the same thing, don't we?  28 THE WITNESS:   Like this?  29 THE COURT:  This has a number on it.  I'll find the number.  30 1076.  31 THE WITNESS:   1076, yes your lordship.  32 THE COURT:  Down here it says, with the dark blue, it says  33 "present ice cover".  34 THE WITNESS:   Okay, your lordship, this means the current  35 mountain tops covered by ice and snow.  That's the  36 modern one.  37 THE COURT:  Oh.  38 THE WITNESS:   As defined by NTS topographic maps and that kind  39 of a presence.  Most recent.  That's these very dark  40 areas.  41 THE COURT:  Yes.  42 THE WITNESS:   Those are the highest mountains of the coastal  43 range.  4 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  45 THE WITNESS:   And indeed I can point out —  46 THE COURT:  There's lots more mountains in the Rockies there  47 covered all year round that are shown there? 18165  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. RUSH  THE  MR.  THE WITNESS:   At this scale I guess it's not possible to show  all the little caps.  THE COURT:  I see.  THE WITNESS:   So there may be a lot more because they are high,  but not very large.  THE COURT:  So you think "present ice cover" there means at the  date of the map?  THE WITNESS:   Publication, '69.  THE COURT:  '69.  All right.  So — wasn't I given something  this morning that talked about 8,500 BP?  You were, my lord, but that was in relation to the  inset map.  COURT:  Yes.  RUSH:  And the inset map shows contour lines of various ages  of glaciations.  And if you look at the inset map on  map 1, Mr. Skoda illustrated that the most recent of  those lines was 8,500 BP and I think he said that the  most aged of those lines was 1,500 -- or 15,500 BP,  and your lordship can see the dotted contour lines on  the inset map for that.  All right.  What map number was that?  Map 1 in the map atlas.  Map 1?  Yes.  Oh, yes.  Thank you.  15,500 wasn't it?  Yes, my lord.  Thank you.  Now, I have finished with those maps, my lord.  Okay.  I wonder if Exhibit 10 — is that 1061?  Yes.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT:  WILLMS  COURT:  WILLMS  REGISTRAR  WILLMS:  Q   -- could be put to Mr. Skoda?  This is a mylar  prepared by Marvin George.  You recognize this?  I recognize the territory.  I recognize the images.  If we can go down here maybe we can find your -- and  do you recognize your note?  Is that your note in the  corner there?  That is my note.  Map 9A?  Yes.  And you prepared an overlay which you know has been  marked and described as 9A, an overlay of your base  map?  That's correct.  And is all the information that you used to produce  the overlay contained on Exhibit 1061, which is the  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q 18166  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 mylar from Marvin George, or was there further  2 information that you received from Mr. George in order  3 to prepare the overlay?  4 A  My recollection is that this would have been the  5 source of information for map 9A.  6 Q   And you recall that map 9A is the claimed Gitksan  7 territories?  8 A   The northern part of the map, that's correct, yes.  9 Q   Right.  And you'll see on this mylar that there are  10 pencil marks?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Are those, the pencil lines, the lines that you used  13 to outline the boundaries that are depicted on 9A?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   All right.  And where Mr. George has -- and perhaps  16 you can tell me whether what the -- there is just  17 south of Ritchie on -- looks like just south of Glutch  18 Canyon, you'll see that he's -- it looks like a  19 backwards "S" that Mr. George has put on the map.  Is  20 that -- what cartographic significance does that have?  21 A   That indicates that two areas are a part of one  22 polygon.  Two separate units are part of one  23 distribution.  24 Q   Does it mean that there's an overlap?  25 A   No, it doesn't mean an overlap.  It means that either  26 they're joining or that they belong to one and the  27 same territory.  28 Q   Oh, so this shows you that --  29 A   That the small polygon and the large polygon connected  30 by that crooked sign are one and the same territory.  31 Q   All right.  Now, did you do anything other than taking  32 the information from 9A and putting it on to an  33 overlay or did you phone Mr. George and discuss with  34 him any difficulties that you saw with the boundaries  35 that he'd laid out?  36 A  We would have simply taken that information and  37 transformed it to where I repositioned that  38 information onto our base.  39 Q   Well, did you not call him and say to him "Mr. George,  40 it appears that you're trying to follow the height of  41 land here, but when I put it onto my base map it's not  42 following the height of land?"  Do you remember  43 conversations like that?  4 4 A   I don't remember.  45 Q   No.  All right.  I'm showing you now Exhibit 1011 --  46 oh, just before we leave 1061, you'll see that on 1061  47 there are named territories in pencil.  There we are. 18167  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 For example, you can see in each territory there is a  2 name written in?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   All right.  And those -- that's where you obtained the  5 information for the names that you put on 9A?  6 A   That's correct.  7 Q   All right.  And were there any changes that took place  8 as a result of phone calls or did you just simply take  9 the information that was on that document and transfer  10 it?  11 A   I presume that it was simply taken from the document  12 we're looking at.  13 Q   All right.  All right.  Now, I'm showing you Exhibit  14 1011, and you'll see in addition to having a  15 reproduction of your note respecting map 9A, you also  16 have a note on this document map 9B and your  17 signature?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   All right.  And this is the document that you received  20 from Mr. George in order to prepare overlay 9B?  21 A   That's correct.  22 Q   And you simply took the information that Mr. George  23 had provided on this and transferred it onto 9B onto  24 your overlay; is that correct?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   All right.  And to the best of your recollection were  27 there any telephone discussions about whether  28 boundaries should be shifted to conform to  29 topographical features once you'd reviewed your base  3 0 map?  31 A   I don't recall a telephone conversation, but I do  32 recall we had a problem fitting the information to  33 the -- to our base.  34 Q   All right.  And how did you resolve that?  35 A  We adjusted the line to conform to the definition of  36 the feature on our base.  37 Q   So that you -- because you had a topographic base that  38 showed heights of land and drainages and the like?  39 A   Yes.  4 0 Q   And so when you got this map where a boundary looked  41 like it should follow a height of land, you changed it  42 from the mylar in putting it onto the overlay; is that  43 correct?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   Once again, in respect of the named houses here you  46 took the names and put them on 9B?  47 A   Yes. 1816?  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   Were -- you said earlier that Mr. George sent you a  2 copy of a map.  Did you know that the map that he  3 originally sent you was appended to a statement of  4 claim or an amended statement of claim in this action?  5 A   No, I didn't know.  6 Q   Did you prepare any of the statement of claim maps  7 or --  8 A   I'm not sure what statement of claim maps are.  9 Q   Well, maybe I can put it this way.  You can see behind  10 you the overlay series, the 646 overlay series and the  11 base map?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Correct.  You've got the 358 series in front of you;  14 correct?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And you've made some larger versions of the 358  17 series?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Have you made any other maps for the plaintiffs as  20 part of your work?  21 A   Yeah, we might have made some maps.  22 Q   Do you recall what was depicted on those maps?  23 A  Administrative boundaries.  24 Q   Sorry, those -- do you mean the administrative  25 boundaries of the province, provincial administrative  26 boundaries?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Yes.  Do you still have that map or copies of that  2 9 map?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   All right.  And that is still in your possession; is  32 that correct?  33 A   Yes.  34 MR. WILLMS:   All right.  I'd ask that that be produced.  35 MR. RUSH:  I oppose that.  36 MR. WILLMS:  Well, my lord, my friend -- now, if I can just  37 find, my lord, Exhibit 1018-13 was the opinion summary  38 that my friends provided us with in March of 1987.  39 THE COURT:  For which witness?  40 MR. WILLMS:  For Marvin George.  41 THE COURT:  Yes.  42 MR. WILLMS:  43 Q   And during the cross-examination of Marvin George on  44 page 12 I asked Mr. George, and this is the opinion  45 that my friends presented us with in 1987.  On page 12  46 Mr. George said:  "I also produced an overlay showing  47 all administrative boundaries based on information 18169  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  obtained from the Ministry of Forests and the Ministry  of Lands, Parks and Housing."  I asked Mr. George in  cross-examination where that was.  He said it was with  Mr. Skoda.  He says he also produced an overlay  showing transportation routes based on the 1 to  250,000 series.  Do you have that map, the transportation routes  overlay?  A   No, I don't.  I recall that information was supplied  to us and was sent back to Hazelton.  MR. WILLMS:  All right.  Well, my lord, the transcript note for  Mr. George is Volume 220, page 15989, lines 5 to 23,  where he identifies that he did the work and to the  best of his knowledge the material was in the  possession of Mr. Skoda.  Now, it's an opinion that  was delivered to us along with a document which we  expected.  We asked for it when Mr. George was here,  and I'm asking for it again.  I don't know how many  times I have to ask for something before my friends  produce it, but I've asked for it and I'm asking for  it again.  And my friend advised us of it.  It was  part of Mr. George's opinion.  It's not a draft.  It's  part of his opinion report delivered to us in '87, the  summary of it, and in my submission I'm entitled to  it.  COURT:  Miss Koenigsberg?  KOENIGSBERG: Well, I have to agree, but it is my friend's  request.  I can't understand the basis upon which it  would not be produced.  We'll find out.  Mr. Rush?  Well, I think you should find out whether or not the  two documents that are being referred to by -- the two  documents talked about here are the same ones.  Well, they're described in the same terms.  Well, they might be.  Administrative boundaries.  They might be.  I don't know if they're the same  ones.  I don't know.  There's a map with  administrative boundaries that was produced for  counsel, and my position is that's part of counsel's  brief.  Well, can you assist us in that, Mr. Skoda, or you  cross-examine if you wish, Mr. Willms.  WILLMS:  Well —  COURT:  Well, how many maps of administrative boundaries did  you prepare?  THE WITNESS:   There was one.  THE  MS.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  THE COURT  MR.  THE 18170  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  MR.  WILLMS  2  MR.  RUSH:  3  THE  COURT:  4  5  MR.  RUSH:  6  7  8  9  10  MR.  WILLMS  11  THE  COURT:  12  13  14  15  16  MR.  RUSH:  17  THE  COURT:  18  MR.  RUSH:  19  THE  COURT:  20  MR.  RUSH:  21  22  23  24  25  THE  COURT:  26  MR.  RUSH:  27  28  29  THE  COURT:  30  31  32  33  MR.  WILLMS  34  Q  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  :  Well, that kind of narrows it down, my lord.  I agree with that.  Sounds like the same one.  I think it should be  produced.  Well, my lord, there's a map that is said in that  transcript that was produced by Mr. George, and what  is not known is if the map that is being talked about  by Mr. Skoda is the map that is talked about by Mr.  George.  I don't know the answer to that question.  :  Well, I mean, Mr. George says --  What troubles me, Mr. Rush, is the series -- or this  investigation started with Mr. Willms asking the  witness what other maps he prepared for the  plaintiffs, and he said he prepared a map with  administrative boundaries.  Yes.  Not if Mr. George prepared a map.  Yes, but the two maps may be entirely different.  He says he only prepared one.  Well, but Mr. George prepared one.  This witness said  he prepared one.  Are the two maps the same?  I -- my  understanding is they aren't.  They might be.  I think  we should ask the witness.  But if the map that was  produced --  All right.  -- with the administrative boundaries about which the  witness is talking about is the one that I'm aware of,  then that was produced for me.  Well, I'm sure this isn't going to come to anything,  but let's explore it further then, Mr. Willms.  Perhaps you want to cross-examine further and see if  that problem can be cleared up.  Well, do you -- in Mr. George's report, Mr. Skoda, Mr.  George describes the map in these terms:  He says:  "I also produced an overlay showing all  administrative boundaries based on  information obtained from the Ministry of  Forests and the Ministry of Lands, Parks and  Housing."  Do you recall -- and, my lord, just to be fair, I  should put what the witness said about that. I asked  him:  "Do you still have an overlay showing some or 18171  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 all administrative boundaries based on  2 information obtained from the Ministry of  3 Forests and the Ministry of Lands, Parks and  4 Housing?"  5  6 And his answer was:  7  8 "I don't have them anymore.  No.  They have  9 gone out of my possession and I don't know  10 where they are.  I believe they may have  11 been sent to Lou Skoda to use.  I don't know  12 where they are."  13  14 Now, Mr. Skoda, do you have in your possession an  15 overlay showing administrative boundaries based on  16 information obtained from the Ministry of Forests and  17 the Ministry of Lands, Parks and Housing?  18 A  Mr. George sent us a number of maps and I recall those  19 two you mentioned would have been part of that batch  20 that he's referring to.  I agree what he described was  21 something I'm familiar with.  I've seen it.  What we  22 normally do is that when we finish with the  23 information we send it back to the originators.  To  24 the best of my knowledge that information was sent  25 back to Hazelton.  2 6 Q   All right.  But you'd have to check the document to  27 make sure of that, wouldn't you?  28 A   I could go through our stores and just double check,  29 make sure that that was done.  30 Q   Right.  Now, Mr. George also said in his opinion  31 report provided to us by my friends in 1987:  32  33 "I also produced an overlay showing  34 transportation routes based on the 1 to 250  35 thousand series which I obtained from the  36 Ministry of Environment and the Ministry of  37 Forests.  This overlay was produced to show  38 where resources are transported through the  39 territories."  40  41 Now, do you recall seeing that overlay?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   Do you still have it or do you know?  44 A   I believe I don't have it.  I believe that that  45 information, plus any other information in that  46 series, was sent back to Mr. George.  47 Q   All right.  And you'd have to check the documents that 18172  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  MR. WILLM  40  41  42  THE COURT  43  44  45  46  47  MR. RUSH:  you have in your possession to make sure?  I would be pleased to do that.  All right.  Now, what else could there be in your  possession, and just give it a general description, in  terms of a map prepared of this area, any mapping  work, what else do you still have?  All the published information.  No, I'm talking about maps that you produced or you  took a part in producing?  What I've all described here in the atlas.  All right.  So other than perhaps these overlays which  may or may not be in your office, everything else is  in court either in the map atlas or in the overlay  series behind you on the wall, the 646 series, or the  larger blowups; is that right?  No, that is not right.  All right.  What else do you have?  We have other maps.  I mentioned the transportation --  sorry, the administrative boundaries.  Administrative boundaries.  Yes.  Transportation is incorporated in all the maps that we  produced.  Yes.  So the transportation network would not be  appropriate.  Anything else that you can recall?  Not right now.  But if you searched your files you might be able to  locate other maps?  Anything specific?  Yes, specifically anything that you prepared in  relation to this case and anything that you prepared  on the instructions of the plaintiffs or plaintiffs'  counsel?  Okay.  But you can't think of anything other than what you've  just outlined right now?  I would like to check.  3:   All right.  Well, my lord, just -- I'd like the  witness to check and I'm sure if he finds anything  that it will be forthcoming.  :  All right.  Well, I think we ought to bring some of  these things to a conclusion.  I think the witness  should deliver the maps that he has within the  category we've been discussing to Mr. Rush and Mr.  Rush can --  My lord, I can tell you I have maps of administrative 18173  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  RUSH:  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT:  MR. RUSH  MR. RUSH  MR.  THE  MR. RUSH  boundaries --  COURT:  Yes.  RUSH:  -- that have been prepared for plaintiffs and  plaintiffs' counsel, and I'm claiming that they are  part of solicitors' brief.  WILLMS:  Well, you know, unless my friend can come up with  Marvin George's map, in my submission, my lord, the  map that Marvin George referred to is the map that my  friend has, and he can't claim privilege for it.  Unless there's some other map out there that fits  Marvin George's description of which we had notice of,  then in my submission it can't be privileged whatever  Mr. Rush may have.  This has got nothing to do with Marvin George's map.  Marvin George described a map in his opinion  report --  Yes, he did.  -- in these terms, and I would think that it is  probably producible unless it is contended that it was  included by mistake and it was never intended to form  any part of the opinion or something of that kind.  Failing that, it seems to me that when you filed --  when that opinion was delivered it was -- it became at  large and could be inspected I should have thought.  So far as I know, my lord, what has been produced for  counsel has got nothing to do with what was produced  by Marvin George, although I see now that a map of  administrative boundaries, which apparently was an  overlay, was delivered to Mr. Skoda.  Now, whether he  relied on that map for the production of the map that  I have or maps that I have, I don't know.  He hasn't  said so.  Well, I think we can waste any amount of time on  this, and I think that -- we'll see.  I think the map  will have to be given to Mr. Rush and Mr. Rush will  have to make a formal claim for privilege if after  looking at whatever it is the witness has, which he  says he has --  Well, my lord, I have the maps that the witness is  referring to.  WILLMS:  Well, you know, my lord --  COURT:  Well, you see the other problem is there's been no  claim for privilege for them until this moment, has  there?  Well, it's not a -- my lord, if the witness produces  something for me and I choose not to lead it, I don't  have to lead it.  THE COURT 18174  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 THE COURT:  Well, you've got to disclose it in order to claim  2 privilege for it.  3 MR. RUSH:  Well, that might be so, and I haven't done that, but  4 I'm claiming privilege now.  5 MR. WILLMS:  6 Q   Mr. Skoda, how do you make a base map?  You received  7 mylars from Mr. George and you transferred those onto  8 a base map, is that -- how do you do that?  9 A   Information that I received from Marvin George was the  10 information specially that he added to the base maps.  11 That's the information that we would have taken as  12 instruction to us, not the base map on which that  13 information was presented to us.  14 Q   Right.  But then you can take that transparency and  15 using that transparency make a hard map, a paper map?  16 A   Yeah, we would take that information and we would  17 generate another graphic that would restate the same  18 case.  19 Q   Did you create paper maps from the overlays given you  20 by Marvin George or do you recall?  The administrative  21 boundary overlays that you received from Marvin  22 George, did you create paper maps from that overlay?  23 A   No.  24 Q   No?  25 A   No.  26 Q   All right.  So if you have an overlay, if you still  27 have it, it's not related to what Mr. Rush has been  28 describing as his paper map?  29 A  Well, if I still have it, I would still -- I promise  30 to check our stores and if I find it I would be -- I  31 would bring it forward.  32 MR. WILLMS:   All right.  Well, I think that takes care of that,  33 my lord.  34 THE COURT:  All right.  35 MR. WILLMS:  36 Q   Now, Mr. Skoda, I'm showing you Exhibit 24 A. in these  37 proceedings entitled "Registered Traplines".  Have you  38 seen that map or a copy of that map before your  39 appearance in court?  40 A   Yes, I've seen similar maps.  41 Q   All right.  Well, let's just -- have you seen a map  42 identified as "Registered Traplines" and either  43 identified to you by someone else as an exhibit in  44 these proceedings or noted on a copy of it as an  45 exhibit in these proceedings?  Have you seen this  4 6 document --  47 A   I've seen -- 18175  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   -- or a copy of it?  2 A   I have seen that document.  3 Q   All right.  And have you looked at this document to  4 determine whether or not there are any difficulties  5 with, except -- skip the over-printing for a minute,  6 the base features, the topographic features?  7 A   No, I didn't examine the topographic features  8 critically.  9 Q   Did you examine this map or a copy of this map in  10 conjunction with underlying documents which are mapped  11 onto it?  12 A   I did see maps in the documents that were passed to me  13 at some stage in the past for storage and for custody,  14 and I handled a series of maps, I forget how many  15 exactly, and stored them away and those are an  16 accompanying series of 8 and a half by 11 publications  17 that came with those.  18 Q   But have you ever looked at any of the documents which  19 purported to underly this map to determine whether or  20 not they've been accurately depicted cartographically  21 on the map?  22 A   No, I didn't examine those maps that way.  23 Q   All right.  And did you examine these maps to  24 determine whether there were cartographic inaccuracies  25 or difficulties with the topographic features?  26 A   I did not examine the map critically to that extent.  27 Q   Okay.  I'm showing you Exhibit 36 A which has use,  28 recreation, right-of-ways, license of occupation, B.C.  29 Hydro right-of-way, Pacific Northern Gas right-of-way,  30 depicted on it.  Did you -- and you'll see that it's  31 the same base map as Exhibit 24.  It's different.  32 Have you seen this one before?  33 A   Yes, I've seen a copy like that.  34 Q   All right.  And did you look at this to determine  35 whether or not the topographic features noted on the  36 map are cartographically inaccurate in any way?  37 A   I didn't examine it critically.  38 Q   No.  Did you examine this to determine whether or not  39 the underlying information that is depicted on this  40 map was accurately depicted on the map, that is, that  41 where it says there's a use, recreation, and enjoyment  42 of the public noted on the map, did you look at any of  43 the underlying information to see whether that was  44 accurately depicted?  45 A   I did not verify any of the information, nor attempted  46 even to verify it.  47 Q   All right.  Now, in respect of any of the -- you're 18176  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 aware that the defendant province has tendered maps  2 and series of maps in this proceeding?  You've seen  3 some of them, including the two I just showed you?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   All right.  Have you been asked or have you reviewed  6 any of those maps to determine whether or not the  7 topographic information on the map was inaccurately  8 depicted?  9 A   I was not asked to critically examine the material.  10 Q   All right.  And in respect of any of those maps were  11 you ever asked to determine whether or not the  12 underlying information had been properly transferred  13 or accurately transferred onto the map?  14 A   I did not do that.  15 Q   Now, if you could just -- I think you gave this  16 evidence with respect to 358-2.  You recall giving  17 evidence that the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en settlements  18 that are outlined in red, that you got that  19 information from DIA maps?  Is that -- was that your  20 evidence?  21 A   No, I referred to a document that was produced by  22 Department of Indian and Northern Affairs.  23 Q   All right.  24 A   I didn't get it from there. It was used as a  25 reference.  26 Q   No, you got the names from the plaintiffs here, didn't  27 you?  That's where you got the names for the red  28 settlements?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   The Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en settlements?  31 A   Okay.  32 Q   Is that right?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   Because you know that there is no -- you didn't see  35 any DIA map that shows an Indian settlement entitled  36 "Tse Kya" T-s-e K-y-a; correct?  37 A   I'm not sure that would be correct.  I'd have to refer  38 back to the information that I examined --  39 Q   Do you still have that information?  40 A   -- two years ago.  It would be possible to search the  41 original of that data or a similar publication that  42 would provide a location of the reservation.  43 Q   Well, but you still have it available to you?  You  44 still have the DIA information available to you that  45 you used in preparing the 358 series?  46 A   I think it's public information.  47 Q   All right.  And so you could identify that and you 18177  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 can't identify that right now?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   But you could search it out and identify it?  4 A   If need be.  5 Q   Well, I would like you to do that.  I'd like to know  6 what DIA information you relied on in preparing that  7 and especially if you have any DIA information which  8 identifies a settlement called Tse Kya or Kyah Wiget,  9 K-y-a-h W-i-g-e-t.  I'd like to know which DIA  10 information map you got that from?  11 A   There are two components, may I just mention this,  12 that one is the position of the settlement and that's  13 where DIA information would be --  14 Q   Yes.  15 A   -- a confirmatory document.  That -- there is the  16 actual name which was derived --  17 Q   Yes.  18 A   -- from instruction that was received from the  19 project --  2 0 Q   From who?  21 A   -- directorate.  From -- I presume it would have been  22 passed and okayed by the linguists.  23 Q   All right.  Was there any reason, for example, why  24 Grassy Plains isn't shown in red?  You'll see --  25 A   Not that I know.  26 Q   You'll see Grassy Plains.  You've shown Grassy Plains  27 as a selected other settlement, but not in red.  Did  28 somebody tell you to do that?  29 A   That probably would have been the case.  30 Q   Yes.  Mr. Overstall maybe?  31 A   No, I should imagine -- well, at this stage it's kind  32 of difficult to recall what actually happened, but the  33 process of preparing the map consisted of iterations  34 of preparing the information and then getting the  35 expert linguists to tell us what the name should be.  36 MR. WILLMS:   My lord, earlier I had asked about -- a question  37 about billings, and in my submission there are a  38 number of items that the witness gave evidence that  39 were his creation and his creation alone.  One  40 example is his view of what the Wisconsin ice sheet  41 map said, and especially refugia which your lordship  42 has heard about from various witnesses, also some  43 changes to some of the maps here and there.  And it's  44 my submission that shades of grey, even if they're  45 light, are still shades of grey, and that I, in my  46 submission, as with the other opinion witnesses, am  47 entitled to explore the fees in conjunction with the 1817?  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koengisberg  1 issue of credibility.  2 THE COURT:  No, I don't think so, Mr. Willms.  I don't think the  3 issue of credibility necessarily has raised a  4 sufficient level to warrant an investigation of that  5 distasteful subject.  6 MR. WILLMS:  Then, my lord, I have made some requests of the  7 witness.  At this point I have no further questions,  8 but my friend has some documents to look at and list  9 and claim privilege for if he is so inclined.  10    THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  Miss Koenigsberg.  11  12 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. KOENIGSBERG:  13 Q   I only have one question for the witness, and of  14 course it relates to the DIA map that the witness has  15 referred to, and I just want to have it clear that in  16 the DIA maps that you say you referred to, you did  17 rely on for the purposes of determining the location  18 of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en settlements which are  19 depicted on such maps as map 2; is that correct?  20 A   That's correct.  21 Q   And the maps that you did rely on are in your  22 possession or you can find like ones so that we could  23 have those identified?  24 A   No, the maps were prepared for -- handed over to the  25 planning section of the Pacific Coast Group some time  26 ago.  27 Q   I'm sorry?  28 A   The maps are in possession of the Department of Indian  29 Affairs in the Pacific Coast office somewhere.  30 Q   Oh, these were not specially created maps for your  31 purposes were they?  32 A   No, they were specially created for the purposes of  33 the Indian Affairs business.  34 Q   Yes.  And you purchased them or obtained them as a  35 member of the public?  36 A   No, they are not purchasable.  We participated in  37 preparing the maps for the Indian Affairs.  38 Q   I see.  And then what you're going to produce will be  39 the map that you relied on or a copy of it?  40 A  A copy of it perhaps.  Yes.  41 Q   Okay.  Thank you.  42 A   I should stress that it was a reference material.  We  43 used it for further refer and confirm a position  44 location.  45 Q   Was there an instance in which the DIA map that you've  46 described showed a location for a reserve and you used  47 different information than what was on that map in 18179  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koengisberg  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1 locating that reserve on map 2, for instance, or any  2 other map where you show those villages or reserves?  3 A   I wouldn't like to try to remember that kind of  4 detail, but I should mention that the process of  5 verification was that initial position is defined by  6 the NTS maps.  7 Q   Yes.  8 A  And it was on occasions that we looked and further  9 verify that the position was as stated.  In that case  10 we looked at the special map produced for the Indian  11 Affairs people.  12 MS. KOENIGSBERG:   Okay.  Well, we'll look forward to the  13 production my lord.  The production is particularly  14 important in light of an admission which was asked for  15 over two years ago by the federal government of the  16 position of reserves as depicted on a map which was  17 delivered to my friend.  It would be of assistance to  18 that admission to know what they had relied upon.  19 THE COURT:  Rush.  20 MR. RUSH:  Well, my friend's talking reserves and the witness is  21 talking settlements.  I don't know if they're talking  22 about the same thing.  I -- the witness has said that  23 he'll look and they're in the hands of the DIA.  24 Presumably my friend can get them as easily as I can,  25 but if -- I rely on what Mr. Skoda says.  If he has  26 them, he'll get them and produce them.  27 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  28 MS. KOENIGSBERG: Just so we're clear, and for the purposes of  29 the admission, we did seek -- it won't be sufficient  30 for me to go to DIA and try and figure out what it is  31 that was produced.  I would imagine, though I have no  32 knowledge, that there is more than one map which has  33 been produced by the federal government showing  34 reserves.  35 THE COURT:  Yes.  36 MS. KOENIGSBERG: I need to know what was in the possession and  37 used by the plaintiffs.  38 THE COURT:  I think that's clear.  All right.  Any  39 re-examination, Mr. Rush?  40  41 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. RUSH:  42 Q   Yes.  Just one question.  This map was shown to you,  43 Mr. Skoda.  Mr. Willms showed it to you.  It's a mylar  44 and it's indicated as map 9B and it's dated November  45 18th, '88, and I take it this is your writing on here?  46 A   Yes, it is.  47 Q   And the question that I wanted to ask you is you 18180  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  Exam by the Court  1 indicated that you made an adjustment or were required  2 to make an adjustment between the mylar and your base,  3 and my question is why did you need to make the  4 adjustment from the mylar to the overlay map 9B?  5 A   The base map which is used on the mylar that I'm  6 looking at was derived from two sources, provincial  7 mapping and the federal mapping.  The base map which  8 we produced behind me from the opaque copies of the  9 maps available likewise was produced from maps made by  10 two sources, federal government and provincial  11 government mapping agencies.  The area in question on  12 Marvin George's base was produced by one agency and on  13 our map on our base map, the map came from another  14 agency.  There was discrepancy in position of the  15 detail.  That was described earlier in our discussion.  16 What we needed to do was to make an adjustment between  17 the two bases.  18 MR. RUSH:   Those are all my questions.  19 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  I have just two or three  20 little questions, just a matter of just helping me to  21 understand map 358-24.  Do you have it in front of  22 you?  You may need Mr. Joseph's help on this, Mr.  23 Rush.  It will only take a moment.  I don't know how  24 well you know this territory, but I have located what  25 I think is Morice Lake in the lower left-hand corner,  26 and I think I can trace the outflow of Morice Lake,  27 but I see it marked "Wedzen Kwe", and if you look  28 further north in what we generally refer to now as the  29 Bulkley Valley and north of Smithers, I see Wedzen Kwe  30 there, and I assume that someone instructed you to  31 name what is in English known as the Morice River as  32 Wedzen Kwe, were you?  33 THE WITNESS:   Yeah, I understand that the Bulkley River and  34 Morice River, or at least in the local usage in Indian  35 designations, that there is a slight difference  36 between naming the different parts of Bulkley River.  37 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Well, I assumed that was probably  38 it.  39 THE WITNESS:   I was indeed.  40 MR. RUSH:  My lord, I can assist you.  41 your memory is right, by Mr.  42 Morice River to the point of  43 Bulkley River is known as the Wedzen Kwe.  4 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  45 MR. RUSH:  And then downstream from that confluence where it  46 continues with the English name, Bulkley River, it  47 continues with the name in Wet'suwet'en, Wedzen Kwe.  That is the evidence by,  Joseph, who said that the  its confluence with the 18181  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Exam by the Court  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  COURT:  All right.  Now, nextly, or next, rather, I think  that I have located Sam Goosley Lake on here, but  it's -- it's quite small, and I wonder if Mr. Joseph  could assist us if he could come forward and just make  sure that I have got it located in the right place,  and I'd like also to have his assistance in  identifying Nadina Mountain for me.  Perhaps if you  could look at the map that the witness has, it's a  little difficult because the lakes are in brown, but I  think if we -- here's what I thought was Morice Lake  and it seems to me Sam Goosley would be in here  somewhere.  Would that be it?  RUSH:  This is Wedzen Kwe.  Morice here.  JOSEPH:  It's the end of Francois Lake here.  It would be up  in here.  COURT:  Well, there's —  JOSEPH:  Oh, yes. That's  here.  COURT:  JOSEPH  MR.  THE  Parrot Lakes.  It would be right  THE  THE  THE  That one there?  Yes.  COURT:  Then where's Nadina Mountain from there?  JOSEPH:   It will be —  COURT:  This one?  JOSEPH:   Yes, right there.  COURT:  What's this one here or is that by any chance the  mine?  JOSEPH:   That's the mine.  COURT:  That's the mine?  JOSEPH:   Yes.  COURT:  All right.  Now, I don't know, can Mr. Joseph help  us if -- as I read this map here, it shows us where  Smithers is.  It's very hard to find, but Smithers  is -- there's Smithers.  Where would Horetzky Mountain  be?  Here's Babine Lake, but we flew over Horetzky  which is within the claim territory, is it not, and I  was wondering if that would be it there.  It's not  snow covered all year round, is it?  JOSEPH: I never flew over that.  COURT:  All right.  Well, then I'm asking too much.  All  right.  Next, Mr. Skoda, can you tell us does it say  here -- I haven't looked -- all this ice and snow in  the north, do we know the time of the year this  picture was taken?  WITNESS:   Yes.  It would be stated in here,  the frame is recorded individually --  COURT:  I see.  WITNESS:   -- because of that significance.  Each one of 18182  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Exam by the Court  1 THE COURT:  Some are September, some are July, some are August?  2 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  3 THE COURT:  All right.  So it's not a winter picture there?  4 THE WITNESS:   No, no, it's mixed.  5 THE COURT:  All right.  Yes.  All right.  Thank you very much.  6 Unless you're notified otherwise, Mr. Skoda, you're  7 excused.  Thank you.  We'll take the afternoon  8 adjournment.  Thank you.  9 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  10 THE COURT:  Before we go, will counsel find it convenient to sit  11 until five o'clock this afternoon?  12 MR. RUSH:  I don't see Mr. Grant, my lord, but he's prepared to  13 go with Mr. Wilson next.  14 THE COURT:  All right.  All right.  Thank you.  15 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court stands adjourned for a  16 short recess.  17  18 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR AFTERNOON RECESS)  19  20 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  21 a true and accurate transcript of the  22 proceedings herein transcribed to the  23 best of my skill and ability.  24  2 5    26 Tanita S. French  27 Official Reporter  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 18183  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Exam by the Court  xh2 W. Wilson (for Plaintiffs)  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO THE AFTERNOON BREAK)  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  THE COURT:  Mr. Grant.  MR. GRANT:  Good afternoon.  WALTER WILSON, a witness called on  behalf of the Plaintiffs, having  first been duly sworn, testified as  follows:  REGISTRAR:  Would you state your full name and spell your  last name, please?  WITNESS:  Walter Wilson, W-i-1-s-o-n.  REGISTRAR:  Thank you, sir.  Please be seated.  GRANT:  Q   Mr. Wilson, you are Djogaslee, a hereditary Gitksan  chief?  A   That's right.  GRANT:  D-j-o-g-a-s-1-e-e.  COURT:  I'm sorry, D-j —  GRANT:  Q   -- o-g-a-s-1-e-e.  And it's spelt on Exhibit 1052-22  slightly differently, but we'll come to that.  How  long have you held the name Djogaslee?  A   Since my uncle passed away, the late William Wale, and  that was in the '50s I think it was.  GRANT:  Okay.  COURT:  I'm sorry, I didn't get the surname.  William  Wilson?  WITNESS:  Wale.  THE  THE  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  William Wale.  Wale.  And you live in Gitanmaax?  Yes.  And how long have you lived in Gitanmaax?  All my life.  And have you -- do you fish in the Skeena and Bulkley  River systems?  Yes.  And how long have you fished in the Skeena and Bulkley  River systems?  Since I was seven years old I think it was.  And if you will permit me, how old are you now?  Sixty-two. 18184  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  Q   Okay.  And where do you -- how do you determine where  you fish in the Skeena and Bulkley River systems?  A  What do you mean how do you determine?  Q   How do you decide where to go and fish, what parts of  the river to fish in?  A  Well, it all depends on what time of year and how high  is the river.  There's quite a few fishing sites for  those period of time.  In spring we -- we have a place  to fish for spring salmon, to gaff.  And my late  grandfather told me where to go for spring and where  to go for sockeye.  All those, they're different  times.  Q   Who was your late grandfather that told you that?  A  Willie Wilson, the late Willie Wilson.  Q   Was he from the House of Djogaslee?  A   He was Djogaslee at the time.  Q   Do -- does the House of Djogaslee have specific  fishing sites in the Skeena and Bulkley River systems?  A   Yes.  Q   Do you know the locations of those sites?  A   I know all of them.  Q   And how have you learned where those sites are  located?  A   From my mother.  Q   What was her name?  A   Her maiden name was Kathleen Wale, and I forgot her --  Q   And she's deceased now?  A   Yes.  COURT:  I'm sorry, just so we're sure we're all on the same  system, how is Wale spelt?  W-a-l-e, my lord.  There is no "s" on the end?  GRANT:  COURT:  WITNESS  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  No.  No.  Thank you.  This would be a different Kathleen Wale than the  present chief, Gwoimt, who's also Kathleen Wale.  G-w-o-i-m-t.  Go ahead.  A   Kathleen Wale Wilson, that's my mother.  Q   That's your mother.  Who else taught you about the  location to the fishing sites?  A  Willie Wilson; and my great uncle, Frank Wilson; and  Andrew Wilson; my great aunt, Sophia Mowatt.  She -- I  believe she's over 90 years old now.  They're the ones  that —  Q   And except for Sophia Mowatt, are all of those other 18185  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 people who taught you now deceased?  2 A Yes, they're all.  3 Q And Sophia Mowatt is very elderly?  4 A Very.  5 Q And bedridden?  6 A Yeah.  7 Q Now, do you know Nika teen, a chief by the name of  8 Nika teen, N-i-k-a t-e-e-n?  9 A Yes, I know him.  10 Q And who -- what is the English name he goes by?  11 A Jimmy Woods Jr.  12 THE COURT:  Jimmy Woods?  13 THE WITNESS:  Jimmy Woods Jr., yes.  14 MR. GRANT:  15 Q Do you know where his fishing sites are located?  16 A Yes.  17 Q Have you been authorized to -- by him to describe the  18 location of his fishing sites to the court?  19 A Not directly by him, but by his mother.  2 0 Q And who is she?  21 A Ellen Woods, Mrs. Ellen Woods.  22 Q Okay.  23 A Because Jimmy is down the coast fishing, down in  24 Prince Rupert.  25 Q And is his mother a chief in that house?  26 A Yes.  27 Q Do you know Gutginuxw, G-u-t-g-i-n-u-x-w, and  28 Woosimlaxha, W-o-o-s-i-m-l-a-x-h-a?  2 9 A Yes, I know them.  30 Q And have you been authorized to describe locations of  31 their fishing sites?  First let me ask you this:  Do  32 you know where their fishing sites are?  33 A I know where their fishing sites are.  34 Q Okay.  And can you describe the location of their  35 fishing sites?  36 A Some of them, yeah.  37 Q You've said that you fished in the Skeena and Bulkley  38 Rivers since you were seven?  39 A Yes.  40 Q Fifty-five years.  Have you fished there almost every  41 year since you were seven?  42 A Almost every year.  When I was a little boy, I fished  43 with my dad.  That's in the canoe.  You have to excuse  4 4 me.  45 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  I'm sorry.  4 6 THE COURT:  Do you want to adjourn, Mr. Grant?  4 7 MR. GRANT: 18186  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   Would you like to take a moment?  2 A   No.  3 Q   Okay.  My lord, I have a document book.  4 Now, you know the location of the Hagwilget  5 Canyon?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Okay.  And do you know Gitksan fishing sites in the  8 Hagwilget Canyon?  9 A   Yes, I do.  10 Q   And do you know Gitksan fishing sites between the  11 Hagwilget Canyon and the mouth of the Bulkley River?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Do you know -- do you have a fishing site yourself  14 below the Bulkley River on the Skeena River, that is,  15 downstream from the mouth of the Bulkley on the Skeena  16 River?  17 A   Below the mouth of the Bulkley?  18 Q   On the Skeena River --  19 A   On the —  20 Q   -- downstream from the --  21 A   Yes, yes, I have a place.  22 Q   What is the name of that site?  23 A   Saxwhl giist.  24 Q   Okay.  I'll get the spelling.  Now, my lord, on map  25 22 -- I believe this is Exhibit 358.  That is the map  26 atlas.  I'm going to ask the witness to -- well,  27 actually, I will -- I'll show the witness the map, and  28 he can probably identify it.  Okay.  I'm just  29 pinpointing out for you, Mr. Wilson, that this map is  30 on a north south -- north and south are going left and  31 right.  Okay.  And here is Kitsegukla.  This is the  32 Skeena River.  And here is -- you can see the -- part  33 of the word Gitanmaax and Tse Kya.  34 A   Urn hum.  35 Q   And then it goes up to the Bulkley Canyon.  Now, can  36 you show to the court if that site of Djogaslee's is  37 on this map, the one that is downstream, Saxwhl giist?  38 A   Saxwhl giist.  Right there.  39 Q   Okay.  40 A   Saxwhl giist.  That's below the mouth of Bulkley  41 River.  42 Q   Okay.  43 A   The junction.  44 Q   It's labelled on the map, my lord, as Anoodim saxwhl  45 giist, and it's in a little labelled box with  46 "Wiigoob'l above and Ts'ogoshle -- and the name of the  47 site and Ts'ogoshle on the bottom, and the spelling of 18187  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 saxwhl is s-a-x-w-h-1, one word, g-i-i-s-t.  And in  2 front of that word in the label is the word Anoodim  3 saxwhl giist, and that first word is A-n-o-o-d-i-m.  4 Now, which side, if you're looking downstream on the  5 Skeena River, which side of the river is that fishing  6 site on, the left or the right side?  7 A   I know it's on the south side of the river.  8 Q   Okay.  9 A   That's on the left going down.  10 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  South side.  That's fine.  Thanks.  Now, my  11 lord, the site above that, 'Wiigoob'l, is pointing  12 to -- at the mouth of Seeley Lake.  I believe there's  13 already been evidence about it.  I'm not going to  14 pursue it further because I believe it's already been  15 given -- explained.  Now, I would just refer the court  16 to tab 1.  17 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, before you leave that, do you say that's  18 your fishing site?  19 THE WITNESS:  Saxwhl giist, yes.  20 MR. GRANT:  Oh, yes.  And the spelling of Djogaslee on this map  21 is different --  22 THE COURT:  All right.  23 MR. GRANT:  — than the spelling in the court record.  It's  24 spelled on the map as T-s-'-o-g-o-s-h-l-e.  25 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  2 6 MR. GRANT:  27 Q   Now, at tab 1 of the document book I have a listing of  28 Gitksan fishing sites, and I have on tab 1 an amended  29 version of the enlarged -- Hagwilget Canyon Sites  30 enlargement, which is at the top of Exhibit 358-22.  31 Now, I'm not going to -- I just wonder, Mr. Wilson, if  32 you can -- if you would like to refer to this listing,  33 it's fine, but if you can tell us if you're going down  34 the river on the Hazelton side as to the fishing sites  35 of the Gitksan that go along the bank of the river at  36 Hagwilget Canyon.  Do you wish to refer to the list  37 and the enlargement?  38 A   Yes.  39 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  Maybe we can put that document in front of  40 you.  Now, I'll ask you --  41 THE COURT:  What document is he looking at?  42 MR. GRANT:  It's tab 1 of the document book.  43 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  4 4 MR. GRANT:  45 Q   And it's the first site, which is -- the first name,  46 which is the listing, and what I have done is  47 followed -- this listing is depicted on the enlarge- 18188  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  GRANT  11  12  13  14  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  GRANT  17  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  GRANT  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  ment in tab 2, at least with respect to Gitksan sites.  Now, can you tell us if you're starting upstream on  the Hazelton side of the Hagwilget Canyon who -- what  are the names of the sites and whose sites are they?  Starting up above the Hagwilget Bridge --  Yes.  -- and around the bend is Xsa an luu guu waaswx.  That's the name of that creek.  :  Madam reporter has --  :  Yes, I'm just going to -- actually, what I'm going  to do, my lord, is -- just a moment.  Starting, just  for the record, my lord, on the listing, it would be  the names on the right bank on this list, and I've got  a copy for madam reporter.  :  All right.  :  So he's just referred to the first one at the top of  that list, madam reporter.  :  Starting X-s-a?  Yes.  And that's the name of that fishing site.  The mouth  of that creek I'm talking about.  Okay.  Go ahead.  Xsa an luu guu waaswx.  And who owns that site?  Dj ogaslee.  Okay.  Go ahead.  What is the next site downstream?  And just above the bridge is Gwin hahl hatlhl.  Yes.  That belongs -- also belong to Djogaslee.  Yes.  And in between these sites I'm talking about there's  quite a few other fishing holes.  We don't list them.  But we're showing the very important holes from our  house.  Okay.  But our members, they use the sites in between.  Okay.  And who owns -- I'm sorry, you did say who  owned Gwin hahl hatlhl?  Gwin hahl hatlhl.  Who owns that?  Dj ogaslee.  Okay.  What is the next major site going downstream on  the same side of the river that you know?  'Hlaxw lo'op.  That's the third one on the list.  And who owns that  site? 18189  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A Also Djogaslee.  2 Q And where is that located in relation to the bridge?  3 A Right below the bridge on Hazelton side.  4 Q Okay.  5 A That's the right-hand side going down the river.  6 Q Yes.  Okay.  And what is the next site that you know?  7 A Wii tigwantxw min.  8 Q Yes.  And who owns that site?  9 A Also Djogaslee  10 Q Now, between those two sites of Djogaslee is there  11 another site that is used?  12 A Yes, there's one site in between the two, like 'Hlaxw  13 lo'op and Wii tigwantxw min.  14 Q Yes.  15 A There's this fishing site in between that.  It belongs  16 to Wii'goob'l.  17 Q Okay.  And do you know the name of that site?  18 A No, I don't know the name of that site.  19 Q Okay.  That site, my lord, is not on the sketch map at  20 tab 1, but it is listed.  And for madam reporter, the  21 two name sites you had were the third one listed and  22 the fifth one listed, and then he referred to  23 Wii'goob'l.  24 A The only time they use that site is when the river is  25 really low in fall.  26 Q What do they use it to catch fish for?  27 A They catch coho and steelhead late fall, just before  28 snow.  29 Q And is this the Wii'goob'l site you're referring to?  30 A Wii'goob'l site, yeah.  31 Q Now, after that last -- you've said -- the last site  32 is Wii tigwantxw min of Djogaslee?  33 A Yeah.  34 Q What is the next site going down on the same bank?  35 A An luu gyahla.  36 Q And whose site is that?  37 A Also Djogaslee.  38 Q Okay.  And which is the next site after that?  39 A Wii sagamhla'kxw.  I think that's --  4 0 Q And who owns that site?  41 A Djogaslee.  42 Q Now, could you just describe for his lordship -- his  43 lordship has crossed this bridge.  He knows the scene.  44 If you're on the Hagwilget Bridge, would you be able  45 to see from the bridge on that bank that site, An luu  46 gyahla?  47 A Yes. 18190  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  THE COURT  42  43  MR. GRANT  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  And how far down would it be from the bridge --  From --  -- in relation to where the river turns?  From 'Hlaxw lo'op down to An luu gyahla is about --  between 100 and 200 yards.  And 'Hlaxw lo'op, where is it in relation to the  bridge?  Down further.  Okay.  Oh, you mean 'Hlaxw lo'op?  Yes.  'Hlaxw lo'op is right below the bridge.  Okay.  Now, if you were standing on the bridge, could  you see that last site you've just referred to, and  I'll try to pronounce it, Wii sagamhla'kxw?  Wii sagamhla'kxw.  Can you see that from the bridge as well?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, where is that in relation to where the  river turns?  That's just where the river start to turn.  You could  see the upper end of it --  Okay.  -- from the bridge.  Okay.  Now, the next site after Wii sagamhla'kxw?  Which is the next site?  Gubokx.  And who owns that site, what chief?  It belongs to Fireweed.  Do you know which house?  Gutginuxw.  Could you see that site from the bridge?  No.  Okay.  That's around the bend?  That's around the bend.  Okay.  And what is the next site on that same side of  the river of the Gitksan?  Saxwhl lo'op.  That's next to Gubokx.  Okay.  That's also belong to Gutginuxw's house.  :  Is that the one that has a dot on the bank but no  arrow going to it?  You see there's a dot on this sketch map?  Oh, yes.  Here's Gubokx with the arrow to it right there around  the bend, and his lordship is asking is that where 18191  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  MR. GRANT  35  36  THE COURT  37  MR. GRANT  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  that is located.  This is the name Saxwhl lo'op.  Saxwhl lo'op is down here.  It's down where that arrow --  Yes.  -- points to that site?  Yes.  So is it some distance from Gubokx or is it right  next?  Well, it's not too far.  Okay.  So there's another site there, I guess, but it's --  Okay.  But I know the site.  Saxwhl lo'op, the witness indicated for the record,  is -- it's that second from the bottom, my lord, where  that arrow points to.  Now, is there a site further below that in the  canyon or at that part of the canyon that you know of?  An yuswx.  That's the last name on that side of the list.  And  who is the holder of that site?  Wii'goob'1.  Now, if we went back up on the other side of the river  at the canyon above the bridge, are there any fishing  sites on the Hagwilget side of the bridge that belong  to the Gitksan?  Yes.  Can you describe the Gitksan fishing sites on the  Hagwilget side?  Just above the bridge, almost straight below it --  above a little bit is Gaan gwats.  Yes.  That's belong to Gyetm galdoo's house.  :  Okay.  And next to that is there another site on  that side of the river?  :  Going downstream?  Going downstream.  I'm sorry.  Yes.  Just below the bridge there's one big fishing site  there.  We call it Wii an haakwhl.  Yes.  That belongs to Guuhadak.  Okay.  Now, when you said just below the bridge, did  you mean just downstream or just --  Just downstream.  Okay.  Now, there are on this sketch map, as there are  on Exhibit 358-22, four sites referred to which are 18192  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Wet'suwet'en sites, my lord, and I'm not going to ask  2 the witness about those four sites.  I believe  3 evidence was given of them by a Wet'suwet'en chief.  4 Is there another Gitksan site on that side of the  5 river that you know?  6 A Yes, there's --  7 Q Near the canyon I'm talking about.  8 A An ska skii.  9 Q Okay.  And where is it located?  10 A It's down further, below those four fishing sites  11 you're talking about.  12 Q Okay.  Now, is it around the bend of the river?  13 A Yes, a little bit.  14 Q Okay.  15 A A little bit around the bend.  16 Q There is a back -- where the canyon -- where the  17 canyon comes out there is a back eddy, isn't there,  18 just downstream from the bridge?  19 A Yes, there's two back eddies there, one big one up  20 just below the bridge --  21 Q Yes.  22 A -- and one further down before you get to the bend.  23 Q And then the river turns where that big one is?  24 A Well, the little one.  25 Q Where the little one is?  2 6 A Yeah.  27 Q And it goes further down?  2 8 A Yeah.  29 Q Is An ska skii below that back --  30 A Just below that little back eddy.  31 Q Okay.  32 A That's where the canyon ends, that Hagwilget Canyon,  33 and then --  34 Q Did you fish in -- gaff in the Hagwilget Canyon --  35 A Oh, yes, quite a bit.  36 Q -- when you were young?  37 A Yes, before the fishery blew that rock out in the  38 centre of the river.  39 Q Okay.  40 A I gaffed on that rock, and I gaffed on 'Hlaxw lo'op.  41 Q That's the one that's directly under the bridge?  42 A Yes.  And I set net up above the bridge during the  43 late '40s, early '50s.  44 Q Okay.  45 A I forgot the name of that fishing site up above the  46 bridge there.  47 Q The one that's at the mouth of the creek or the one -- 18193  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A   Gwin hahl hatlhl.  Q   Okay.  That's the second named one on the list?  A   Yes.  And we also gaffed below, but not as much as we  do right below the bridge because lot easier to get  down to those places.  Some of those places are pretty  hard to get down to.  Q   Did you gaff in some of those places that were hard to  gaff?  A   Oh, yes, we -- I make ladimsxw.  I don't know if you  know what we call ladimsxw.  Q   Ladimsxw?  A   Ladimsxw.  Q   Ladimsxw.  A   That's the Indian ladder.  Q   Ladder.  A   Yes.  We cut a pole down, and we notch them in, and we  hang them on a foot wall, cliff, and that's how we get  down to some of the holes.  And we hoist the fish up  when we gaff down below.  I did lots of that in my  time.  At one time I also explore underneath the  water.  Q   You went under the water?  A   Yes.  When there was -- that rock was still in the  middle of the river below the bridge, right below the  bridge, we put poles out to that rock, and we walked  over, and we -- that's where we gaffed late fall.  Two  of my cousins were with me, and one of them, the  youngest one, was going to fall backwards, so I went  around and pushed him back, and I went in instead.  And I grabbed a hold of the rock, and I told my  cousin:  "Gaff me, hook me."  And they froze.  They  couldn't do nothing.  So I finally let go, and I went  under that big rock.  And I don't know how I got out  the other end, but I went around that big eddy I was  talking about on the Hagwilget side.  The third time I  went around there, that's when -- I think it was Dora  Kenni's uncle.  They used a really long pole, and they  were trying to reach me.  The third time I grabbed on  the tip with my fingers, and that's how they got me  through.  Q   When was that about that that happened?  A   I think it was 1939.  MR. GRANT:  My lord, I'd like to mark this book as the next  exhibit and, utilizing Mr. Willms' practice, mark the  tabs as separate tabs.  THE COURT:  All right.  What's the next exhibit number?  THE REGISTRAR:  107? 18194  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  The book will be 1078, and tab 1 thereby 1078-1.  Tab 1, thank you.  Well, the glossary and the map will be 1078-1.  (EXHIBIT 1078 - BLUE BINDER - PLAINTIFF - FISHING SITES 'ñ†  WILSON)  (EXHIBIT 1078-1 - TAB 1, HAGWILGET CANYON FISHING SITES)  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GRANT:  Q   Right.  Mr. -- okay.  With respect to the first page  at tab 1, this listing here that's typed out, was that  listing typed out by someone in Mr. Rush's office  today on your instructions when you -- is that a list  based on the list of the names that you gave to me  today?  A   Yes.  Q   Okay.  Can you turn over the page?  And was that  handwriting on this map and these changes to this  enlargement of Exhibit 358-22, the Hagwilget Canyon,  were those made today on your -- under your direction?  A   Yes.  Q   And those were names that you provided to me?  A   That's right.  Q   And does that handwriting -- your son-in-law, Mr.  Patsey, who's present in court, assisted in drafting  those -- doing the handwriting?  A   Yes.  MR. GRANT:  Thank you.  My friend asked for some clarification,  my lord.  MR. MACAULAY:  The next tab, my lord, tab 2, I haven't seen it.  It was explained to me that it was an enlargement of  an existing exhibit, but it's difficult to -- perhaps  we could see what the registrar's copy shows and get a  copy from her in due course.  COURT:  Well, it's Map 22 of the map atlas, isn't it?  GRANT:  It is not at all like the first tab.  It is quite  simply an enlargement of the 4-Mile Canyon sites.  Mine is marked up, and I don't --  COURT:  Aren't they taken from the map atlas?  GRANT:  Exhibit 358-22.  COURT:  Yes.  GRANT:  It's just an enlargement of the 4-Mile Canyon sites.  And there was a mix-up, and we were short one copy.  I  apologize.  MACAULAY:  The reason I ask is that this first map I have  never seen before, and your lordship may gather that a  lot of these names we heard just this minute as the  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR. 18195  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 evidence was being given.  2 MR. GRANT:  Many of these names -- except for on the first map,  3 my lord, the only names that -- the spellings of the  4 names I concede are in some cases different, but the  5 only names that were added -- on the 358-22 there's a  6 Gyedimgaldo'o and a Guuhadakxw site on the left bank.  7 And the names Gaan gwats, G-a-a-n, one word,  8 g-w-a-t-s, second word, and Wii an haakwhl, W-i-i a-n  9 h-a-a-k-w-h-1, those names, I agree, were not on the  10 map.  But once again, I don't know how many times I  11 need say this, but all, all of the underlying  12 documents used in the preparation of Map 22, which was  13 file box of several thousand pages, has not only been  14 disclosed to my friends but was delivered to them,  15 that is, the provincial defendants requested it, and I  16 believe the federal defendants requested it as well in  17 March of this year, in advance of the evidence of Mr.  18 Morrell.  So all of -- but these two names, I agree,  19 are not on the 358-22, and the other names that are --  20 I'm sorry.  And then there's an additional site of  21 Djogaslee further upstream.  But the other names are  22 spelled somewhat differently on 358-22 and may be  23 located somewhat differently within the canyon, but  24 those names are there.  25 Now, maybe I could just refer you once again to  26 the large map.  I'll just ask you this without -- I  27 don't need to show you Exhibit 358-22.  Does Djogaslee  28 have any fishing sites at Kisgagas on the Babine  29 River?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And can you tell his lordship where in relationship to  32 the bridge that crosses the river at Kisgagas your  33 site would be?  34 A   The fishing site belonging to Djogaslee is across the  35 bridge and up above the bridge.  36 Q   Okay.  That fishing site is shown on the enlargement  37 of Kisgagas Canyon sites -- oh, I'd like to ask you  38 this:  Is that site -- do you know the name of that  39 site?  40 A   No, there's so many names there, and I don't know  41 which one.  I didn't ask my uncle the name of that  42 site.  43 Q   Okay.  I won't lead this because -- you see the  44 Kisgagas Canyon sites, Mr. Wilson, and this is where  45 the river's going downstream.  I'm just indicating  46 where the arrow is there for you.  There is a site  47 referred to as Ts'ogoshle? 18196  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yeah.  2 Q   Is that the location of the site that you were  3 referring to?  4 A   Yes, it's above the bridge.  5 Q   Now, also that site says Ts'ogoshle, Meluulek.  Does  6 Miluulak have any rights to that particular fishing  7 site to your knowledge?  8 A   Not that I know of.  I don't know why Miluulak is on  9 there, but she has quite a few other fishing sites.  10 Q   Okay.  You know that she has other fishing sites at  11 Kisgagas Canyon?  12 A   Yes, I knew that.  13 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  14 THE COURT:  I don't see Djogaslee's site on the map atlas.  15 MR. GRANT:  Kisgagas.  16 THE WITNESS:  Kisgagas.  17 THE COURT:  Yes.  18 MR. GRANT:  Up on the upper right-hand corner, Kisgagas Canyon  19 Sites.  2 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  21 MR. GRANT:  On the left-hand side, the third one down, and  22 there's a scare box where the name usually goes.  23 THE COURT:  It would be quicker if you showed me.  24 MR. GRANT:  I should show it to you.  25 THE COURT:  Sorry.  Oh, there.  26 MR. GRANT:  Right there.  This is the enlargement of the  27 Kisgagas Canyon here.  2 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  2 9 MR. GRANT:  30 Q   Now, does Djogaslee hold any sites on the Skeena River  31 upstream of the present location of Kispiox Village?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And can you tell his lordship where that is  34 approximately and the name of that site?  35 A   It's called Gwinats'al, that fishing site.  36 Q   Just a moment.  I'll just for the reporter --  37 G-w-i-n-a-t-s-'-a-1.  Go ahead.  38 A   Gwinats'al.  And it's above the Salmon River, across  39 from Kispiox.  40 Q   So it's on the side of the Skeena on the -- opposite  41 to Kispiox --  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   -- but further upstream?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   Okay.  46 A   It's on the right-hand side going up river.  47 Q   In the enlargement of Skeena and Kispiox River fishing 18197  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  Q  10  A  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  A  25  MR.  GRANT  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  GRANT  28  Q  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  A  36  37  38  MS.  SIGUR  39  40  41  MR.  GRANT  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  A  sites -- well, do you know of persons who have fishing  sites nearby that?  Yes.  Who -- what other site would that be near?  Well, there's -- Haaxw's site is above mine.  Okay.  And there's some below.  I don't know who the owners  are.  Okay.  Is there one directly across that you know of?  Oh, yeah, there's fishing sites, but I don't know  who --  Okay.  Fine.  -- the chiefs are.  You see there's a site with a dot here, Gwinats'al-  Ts'ogoshle, and here's the Kispiox and Skeena  junctions, and it's the Salmon River there, and it's a  ways further upstream of the Salmon River?  Um hum.  Is that the site that you're referring to?  Yes.  I was thinking about -- there's a creek here.  That's Pinenut Creek.  That's what I was talking  about, above Pinenut Creek.  Oh, it's above Pinenut Creek?  Yes, past Salmon River.  It's located here, my lord.  Yes.  Now, what I'd like you to do is to turn to tab 2,  which is for convenience only, my lord.  It's an  enlargement of the 4-Mile Canyon sites, and -- from  Exhibit 358-22.  It's no different than that.  There's  no additions or deletions.  It's a bit enlarged.  Now,  do you know who owns fishing sites in the 4-Mile  Canyon?  On the right-hand side of the river going up I know of  fishing holes there that belongs to Nika teen and  Woosimlaxha.  DSON: Excuse me. This witness is getting away from  his own fishing sites. Could he give his source of  knowledge?  Woosimlaxha and Nika teen.  W-o-o-s-i-m-l-a-x-h-a.  Nika teen, N-i-k-a t-e-e-n.  Mr. Wilson, how were you -- who taught you about  the Gitksan sites in 4-Mile Canyon, and how do you  know them?  We also fished there. 18198  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  MR. GRANT  36  37  38  39  40  41  THE COURT  42  43  44  45  MR. GRANT  46  Q  47  Yes.  And ever since I was a little boy, we travel up and  down that river on the trail on the bank, riverbank.  And whenever we go by there when we go visit Glen  Vowell, that's in the early days of the '30s and early  '40s, and our parents always point out.  There's a  trail right along the bank, riverbank, around the  canyon, and they point out to us.  And I also know I  also fished with these people, helped them.  That's  what we do.  We help one another in the early days.  And that's how we know.  And Nika teen is close to me.  He sits on my same table in the feast hall, and we  talk.  Woosimlaxha, I know them.  The Woosimlaxha  before, the one now.  I know all these chiefs, and  that's how I know their fishing holes.  Have these fishing sites been referred to or described  in feasts at which you've been at?  Whenever there's a high chief died, yes.  Okay.  And that's when they -- if you see names on some of  the fishing site, maybe two or three names, there's a  reason for that.  Sometimes a different clan would  marry in, a Frog Clan or Wolf.  This person could use  that —  Okay.  -- providing he has permission from the chief that  owns the site.  I had meant to ask you earlier in what clan are you,  Dj ogaslee?  Frog.  And what clan is Nika teen?  Frog.  What clan is Lutkutsiiwus?  Lutkutsiiwus is Frog too.  :  L-u-u-t-k-u-t-s-i-i-w-u-s.  Can you -- if you  started just upstream -- at the beginning of the  canyon just upstream of where the bridge is on that  side that's closest to Hazelton, can you tell his  lordship what -- who owns the fishing sites going  downstream towards Hazelton through the 4-Mile Canyon?  :  Mr. Grant, does he have to orally present them all?  They're right on the map right in front of him.  He's  just going to read them out to us, isn't he?  Can't he  just confirm that --  Well, I -- yes, I can do it.  You have reviewed this  map that shows these sites, that is, this enlargement 18199  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 here of Exhibit 358-22, with me, and with respect to  2 the first three sites, that is, Anyuusxw,  3 A-n-y-u-u-s-x-w --  4 A   That's above the bridge.  5 Q   Yes.  6 A   That's Woosimlaxha's.  7 Q   Okay.  And Gwintkas'ha, G-w-i-n-t-k-a-s-'-h-a, and  8 Sagimlaxsiipit, S-a-g-i-m-1-a-x-s-i-i-p-i-t?  9 A   That belongs to Nika teen.  10 Q   Do both those sites belong to Nika teen?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Now, what I'd like to stop there is that on this map  13 it shows Nika teen and Woosimlaxha.  Do you know if  14 Woosimlaxha has a site there or why --  15 A   Sagimlaxsiipit, that belongs to Nika teen.  And the  16 reason why Woosimlaxha is on there is there's a man  17 named James Green, and he's from Woosimlaxha's house,  18 and he asked permission to use that hole, and the Nika  19 teen before Jimmy Woods, the late John Smith, he let  20 him -- he let James use that hole because it was James  21 Green's sister, I think, that John Smith married, and  22 that's why Nika teen let Woosimlaxha's member in that  23 hole.  24 Q   Okay.  25 A   But before -- James got older and older and older, and  26 then he was going to move to Houston one year, and he  27 went and seen Nika teen's nephew, which is Arthur  2 8 Sampson.  29 Q   Who's now deceased?  30 A   He's now deceased too.  31 Q   Yes.  32 A   But he told this person that -- we call wak when you  33 walk up to a person.  And if he's a male and I'm a  34 male, and I call him wak.  35 Q   W-a-k?  36 A   Yeah.  And he said:  "Wak, I'm going to return this  37 fishing hole to you.  I'm no longer using it, so I'm  38 reverting it back to the Frog Clan."  And the person  39 that -- Arthur Sampson, he talked to me about it, and  40 he told me what happened because there wasn't any  41 feast the time that this person was moving out, James  42 Green.  43 Q   Okay.  44 A  And that's why he went up to Kispiox -- Glen Vowell  45 just to tell this person that he's leaving.  46 Q   Was it later referred to in a feast as to what  47 happened? 18200  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  A   I never did hear, but I think it was.  Q   Art Sampson -- just -- I've only put tab 3 and 4 in  for reference.  Exhibit 853 is tab 3 and tab 4.  Arthur Sampson that's being referred to, is that the  late husband of Eva Sampson?  A   Eva Sampson, yes.  GRANT:  And he's at page 5 A of the neighbouring genealogy,  just for your reference, my lord, and James Green is  at page 6 of the -- of the Gutginuxw genealogy.  COURT:  Are these genealogies already in?  GRANT:  They're already in, my lord.  COURT:  Oh, yes.  GRANT:  They're Exhibit 853, and they were the Gitksan  genealogies that have already been entered.  COURT:  Nika teen doesn't seem to be numbered.  GRANT:  Well, yeah, I see that on my copy I hadn't numbered  that number individually.  It is -- it is Exhibit 853,  which is a binder of all the genealogies, and I can't  recall the --  COURT:  Oh, yes.  Thank you.  GRANT:  Q   And the James Green that you were referring to, was he  the husband of Maggie Jackson?  A  Maggie Jackson, yes.  Q   And the brother of Mary Green, who married Arthur  Mowatt?  A   Yes, yes.  GRANT:  I say that, my lord, because there are other James  Greens referred to on that genealogy.  COURT:  All right.  GRANT:  Q   So as far as you understand, that Sagimlaxsiipit  fishing site now belongs to Nika teen and there is no  question of Woosimlaxha?  A   There's no question about that.  Q   S-a-g-i-m-1-a-x-s-i-i-p-i-t.  Now, the next site down  shown there is U'Kobaluu?  A   U'Kobaluu.  Q   And who -- and that's got those two names, Nika teen  and Woosimlaxha, as well.  It's U-'-K-o-b-a-l-u-u.  Now, whose site is that?  A   It's Nika teen's site.  Q   And do you know why Woosimlaxha would be listed there?  A   I think it's the same thing.  Q   Okay.  So Woosimlaxha should be taken off of those two  fishing sites?  A   Yeah.  Yes. 18201  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  27  28  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  MR.  GRANT  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  GRANT  43  44  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  GRANT  47  Q  The next site that's down on that side of the river is  called Gwinwilaat, G-w-i-n-w-i-1-a-a-t.  Do you know  of that fishing site?  Gwinwilaat, yes.  And who owns that fishing site?  Nika teen.  And on that there's a name Antgulilibiksxw.  You know  Antgulilibiksxw?  Yes, I know her.  Mary Johnson.  And she's in the Fireweed Clan?  Yes.  And Nika teen.  Do you know why there would be some  question with those persons drafting the map of  Antgulilibiksxw fishing there?  I think the reason why she put her name on there is on  account of Donald Mowatt, the late Donald Mowatt.  Donald Mowatt married into Nika teen members, and I  think that's the reason why they let him use that  fishing site.  And Antgulilibiksxw is some relation to  Donald Mowatt, and she must have figured that it  belonged to him.  That's why she has her name on  there.  But since then I was in at one feast just not  too long ago, and it was a Fireweed feast.  Where?  At Kispiox.  And I was at the feast witnessing, and so  was Nika teen, and that's when this lady stood up and  called Nika teen, and she apologized in that feast  so -- and returned it back.  She was going to withdraw  her name from that fishing site.  I didn't know it was  on here.  That's the —  That's —  And when you say that lady, who are you referring to?  Mary Johnson.  Okay.  Antgulilibiksxw.  And when she referred to that fishing site, what site  was she referring to?  Gwinwilaat.  Okay.  How do you spell that?  G-w-i-n-w-i-1-a-a-t.  It's the one on the map.  I'd  ask then that on that copy, the enlargement, in any  event, that you -- to cross off Woosimlaxha --  Yes.  -- on those two places where Woosimlaxha's referred 18202  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 to, and Antgulilibiksxw, and to do the same on the  2 Exhibit 358-22.  3 Now, just to give you some room here -- I'll just  4 be one or two -- just very quickly, my lord.  On the  5 right bank -- I'm sorry.  On the -- when we're looking  6 downstream on the right bank of the 4-Mile Canyon as  7 shown on Exhibit 358-22, there are a number of sites,  8 starting with one called Axgoodim hawal under  9 Lutkutsiiwus, which is in the bay above the 4-Mile  10 bridge.  That's spelt A-x-g-o-o-d-i-m, one word,  11 h-a-w-a-1, second word.  Lutkutsiiwus,  12 L-u-t-k-u-t-s-i-i-w-u-s.  Starting from there and  13 going downstream as far as the site known as Awalp,  14 A-w-a-1-p, also of Lutkutsiiwus.  Have you reviewed  15 this map and these fishing sites?  Have you looked --  16 have you reviewed those sites and the locations of  17 them with me before giving evidence?  18 A   I know where the sites are.  19 Q   You know where those sites are?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And is the depiction of the location of those sites  22 correct?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And is the chiefs that own those sites as depicted  25 there correct?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Okay.  2 8 A   But I didn't know the name of the sites, but I know  29 the chiefs that owns them.  30 Q   Okay.  So you could not recall all of the names of  31 those sites as listed there?  32 A   No.  33 Q   But you do know those chiefs own those sites?  34 A   I seen them fish there, yes.  35 Q   Okay.  And you know they are the owners from the  36 descriptions of the sites?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Okay.  Now, just for your reference, my lord, with  39 reference to that, and it's of course -- tab 5 is an  40 extract from the evidence of page 434 and page 435,  41 the evidence of Mary McKenzie in which she refers to  42 the Lutkutsiiwus sites from 4-Mile Canyon going  43 downstream, and I'd just like to ask you one question  44 on this.  You see below -- just below the lowest site  45 of Lutkutsiiwus that's on this enlargement, Awalp,  46 there's a creek there.  Do you know the name of that  47 creek? 18203  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  A   Cedar Creek on the map, and we call it Xsingwawooms.  Q   Xsi?  A   Xsingwawooms.  Q   X-s-i-n-g-w-a --  A   I don't know how to spell it.  Q   -- w-o-o-m-s.  That's as I recall, my lord.  And was there a smokehouse near that creek?  A   Yes.  Q   And whose smokehouse was that?  A   Lutkutsiiwus'.  MR. GRANT:  Okay.  I'd ask then, my lord, that the others, for  convenience, be re-marked as part of this Exhibit  number 1078, tabs 2 through 5.  They all are parts of  other exhibits or in one case part of a transcript,  but for convenience for your lordship.  THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  (EXHIBIT 1078-2  (EXHIBIT 1078-3  (EXHIBIT 1078-4  (EXHIBIT 1078-5  20, 1987)  TAB 2, 4-MILE CANYON SITES)  TAB 3, GUTGINUXW GENEALOGY)  TAB 4, NIKAT'EEN GENEALOGY)  TAB 5, EXCERPT FROM TRANSCRIPT DATED MAY  MR. GRANT:  Thank you.  Mr. Wilson, if you could answer my  friend's questions.  THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay.  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACAULAY:  Q   When you were young, you lived at Pinenut Creek, did  you?  My mother lived there.  Did you?  No, not me.  You never lived there?  No.  And does anybody live there now?  No, no.  Is there a smokehouse there now?  No, it collapsed, and nobody rebuilt it.  That was your smoke -- your family's smokehouse, was  it?  Yes, my great grandmother.  MR. MACAULAY:  Okay.  Do you know of the — of a system of  dispute settlement that was put in place at Kispiox by  the Kispiox Band Council to deal with disputes over  fishing sites?  MR. GRANT:  When?  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A 18204  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Grant  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  MR. MACAULAY:  Q   In 1983.  A   I didn't hear of that.  Q   You hadn't heard that Russell Stevens was to head a  group composed of 12 or 15 chiefs and elders to  arbitrate disputes?  A   No, I never did hear that.  Q   Is there a dispute resolution committee at Gitanmaax?  A   No.  Q   Now, you mentioned William Wale.  He was your great  uncle, was he?  A   No, he's my uncle.  Q   Your uncle?  A   He's Djogaslee before me.  Q   He had the name?  A   Yes.  MR. MACAULAY:  He was the head chief before you.  Now, I'm going  to show you a document.  My lord, this is our document  11385.  MR. GRANT:  My lord, I'd like to — unless this has to do with  fishing sites, I want to advise your lordship that Mr.  Wilson was cross-examined on August 31st, 1988, by  both Miss Koenigsberg on behalf of the federal Crown  and Mr. Mackenzie on behalf of the province on his  affidavit.  But as your lordship had ruled, his cross-  examination could cover any and all areas, not just  the territories.  This now -- my friend at this stage  is introducing documents that have absolutely nothing  to do, from my observations, with fishing at all, and  these kinds of documents were tendered and put to  other witnesses.  MR. MACAULAY:  How can my friend say that?  He doesn't know why  I'm using it.  THE COURT:  Well, I think we should deal with the problem  anyway.  I have always avoided any suggestion, Mr.  Grant, that witnesses are not subject to cross-  examination generally when they go in the box.  There  is a limit when it comes to re-examination and  rebuttal evidence, but other than that I've always  taken the view, unlike the American practice that's  usually gone on, that cross-examination is at large  every time a witness enters the box, and I did not  limit cross-examination on affidavits for that very  reason, and I don't think I have precluded applying  the same rule at this time, have I?  MR. GRANT:  Well —  THE COURT:  Perhaps you think by inference I have. 18205  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GRANT:  Well, maybe we haven't crossed that bridge yet  because with respect to the witness that you heard,  for example, yesterday and other witnesses my friends  have taken the opportunity and -- where witnesses have  been cross-examined, of course, they did canvass on  all areas, as your lordship directed, and I concede.  I'm not suggesting that.  But the point of this is  that this witness is now being cross -- he -- all of  those issues were there in August.  These documents  were presumably --  THE COURT:  No, I don't think I need to hear you further, Mr.  Grant.  I'm not going to limit cross-examination.  I  have always taken the view that there has to be a risk  when you call a witness, and the risk is you open him  up to cross-examination, and I wouldn't want to depart  from that salutory rule.  You may proceed, Mr.  Macaulay.  MR. MACAULAY:  Q   Now, you've been looking at that document, Mr. Wilson,  and you see that it's a statutory declaration.  It was  sworn in 1943, when you were quite young.  I'm sorry,  it was sworn in 1946.  And it appears to be the  declaration of Charles Patsey and William Wale of  Hazelton.  Do you recognize those names?  I know Charles Patsey, yes, and Charles Clifford, and  William Wale.  I know them.  Yes, it has to do with -- apparently has to do with  the election of Charles Clifford Sr.  Um hum.  Did you know Charles Clifford?  Yes.  Is he dead now?  Yes, long dead.  And how about Charles Patsey?  Same.  He's dead?  Yes.  Now, at the bottom there's signatures.  Do you  recognize those signatures, Patsey and Wale?  I recognize William Wale's.  You do?  Yes.  Okay.  My lord, I'm not going to ask that that be  marked.  I just wanted to get the witness to identify  that.  Now, I'm going to show you another -- not for  moment anyhow -- document.  This is dated -- it's our  document number 1245, my lord, dated October 29th,  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q 18206  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1968.  It's in the matter of the estate of Peter John  Wale.  Did you know Peter John Wale?  A   Yes, he's one of my uncles.  Q   And this document appears to be signed by Stanley  Wale.  Do you know him?  A   Yes.  Q   Did you know him?  A   Yes.  Q   Was he a relative of yours too?  A  Well, second cousin.  He's my uncle's boy.  Q   And then William Wale?  A  And William Wale.  Q   And you recognize that signature, do you?  A   Yes.  MR. MACAULAY:  Okay.  If you put that aside, witness, I'm not  asking it be marked.  Now, my lord, I'm going to show the witness a will  of James White.  MR. GRANT:  My lord, I'm concerned.  My friend is tendering now  these documents from these estate files.  As you may  recall, this was dealt with a long time ago and  referred to.  I just wonder what -- and my friends  withdrew or moved back from the utilization of  wills --  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MACAULAY  GRANT:  MACAULAY  COURT  GRANT  COURT  We did not.  generally.  We did not.  I don't recall --  These come from the confidential files.  -- precisely.  I think Mr. Macaulay merely  discontinued pursuing the witness back up in Smithers,  as I recall, but I'm not at the moment mindful of any  general abandonment of any particular field of battle.  MR. GRANT:  No, I — I certainly didn't mean to suggest that.  I  think as you phrased it is right.  Mr. Macaulay  withdrew or -- pursuing the area.  COURT:  Discontinued cross-examination on a subject.  GRANT:  And these, of course, come out of the personal files  that are not available to the descendants of these  people.  They are not probated wills.  They are  confidential files of the Department of Indian  Affairs.  And we took issue then, and at that time Mr.  Macaulay did not pursue it as I --  MACAULAY:  I'd like the reference in the transcript of that,  my lord.  I do not recall backing off using a will  ever.  GRANT:  He did not pursue it.  THE  MR.  MR.  MR. 18207  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  Didn't pursue a particular will.  It had something  to do with a farm in Kispiox, as I recall.  MR. GRANT:  Yes, it was an estate file.  And we raised objection  at that time to these -- their disclosure.  MR. MACAULAY:  Perhaps I should sit down and hear the objection  because I don't understand it.  THE COURT:  Well, I think the objection is one that's based more  in disappointed outrage.  MR. GRANT:  Well, there's that element, and the other element is  that my friend -- he's already tendered two documents  that he says he is not putting in as exhibits now.  I  just wonder --  MR. MACAULAY:  I don't have to explain why I put documents to a  witness, my lord.  My friend's wasting time here.  It's frivolous.  MR. GRANT:  I wonder what is the relevance of this last  document.  THE COURT:  I don't know.  I've never seen the document before,  and we haven't heard any examination on it yet.  No, I  think we should hear what develops.  Counsel don't  have to show their hand in the first instance.  It has  to become apparent at some time, but I don't think  counsel can be required to outline his circuitous  route he may be pursuing in his cross-examination.  You can proceed Mr. Macaulay.  MR. MACAULAY:  Q   Have you seen that document before, witness?  A   No, I have not.  This is the first time I've seen  this .  Q   James White.  Was James White a relative of yours?  A   No.  Q   He was not related to you at all?  A   No.  Q   He was at one time Gyetm galdoo?  A   Yes.  Q   Now, there's a reference to -- in the bequests to,  amongst other people, to his daughter Kathleen.  I  take it she's not a relative of yours either?  A   No.  Q   But the witness, William Wale, at the bottom is your  uncle?  A   Yes.  Q   And that's his signature?  A   Yes.  Q   Now, you see there that James White, Gyetm galdoo --  A   The signature of William Wale here, it's -- it doesn't  look right to me. 18208  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  MR. GRANT  30  THE WITNE  31  MR. MACAU  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Well, let's look at the other documents.  This is his true signature on this one here.  You're showing me --  And this one is different.  Yes.  Different handwriting.  Different handwriting?  It looks that way to me.  Well, the first -- all right.  We'll come to another  document then and that's -- anyhow, you don't know --  do you know who Maria and Kathleen White were?  Kathleen White, that's William Wale's wife.  Kathleen  Wale, Mrs. Kathleen Wale.  It was your uncle's wife?  Yes, Kathleen.  And Kathleen was the daughter of James White?  That's right, yes.  And he -- James White appears to have bequeathed his  fishing station on the Bulkley River directly above  the mouth of Mission Creek to his two daughters?  That's what it says?  That's -- that's Gyetm galdoo's fishing site, yes.  Mission Creek is another name on the map?  That's Gwinxsigiibiltxw.  Does it have another English name on the map?  No, not that I know of.  Station Creek?  No.  Gwinxsigiibiltxw.  :  Just a second.  G-w-i-n-x-s-i-g-i-i-b-i-1-t-x-w.  3S:  That's Mission Creek.  uAY:  And is that on the left bank of the Bulkley, that is,  as you --  Go down river.  -- go down river?  Yes.  Now, I ask you to look at -- I'm going to show the  witness now, my lord, because of this comment about  the signature, a document entitled "Application for  Appointment of Administrator and Approval of Will."  It's our document number 3793.  These are not stapled  together.  They're just clipped together, my lord.  But I'm drawing the witness's attention to the third  page of that document, and that third page includes an  affidavit of a witness, William Wale, and there's a  signature there.  Do you recognize that signature?  Yes. 18209  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   That's your uncle, William Wale's signature?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And he says there that he knew James White of Hazelton  4 and that he was personally present on August 31st,  5 1937, when a last will and testament of James White  6 was executed.  That's what he says --  7 A   Um hum.  8 Q   — doesn't he?  9 But he never told you about that?  10 A   No, no.  11 MR. MACAULAY:  Could that be marked?  Could the two be marked as  12 the next exhibit, my lord?  13 MR. GRANT:  My lord, I'd like them to be marked as exhibits for  14 ID because this -- we have never had these applica-  15 tions for appointment of administrator and approval of  16 will marked, and I'd like to be able to just consider  17 the position we take, but I don't think we should  18 spend the time on it right now.  19 THE COURT:  What's the exhibit number?  20 THE REGISTRAR:  1079.  21 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, the four-page application will  22 be -- or is it five pages -- five pages, will be  23 marked 1079 for identification.  24  25 (EXHIBIT 1079 FOR ID - APPLICATION FOR APPOINTMENT OF  2 6 ADMINISTRATOR - JAMES WHITE)  27  2 8 MR. MACAULAY:  On what grounds would it be marked for  29 identification, my lord?  30 THE COURT:  Well, your friend has asked for some time to look  31 into it.  It will be marked if he doesn't raise it  32 again.  33 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes, my lord.  Now perhaps now my friend will  34 understand why the earlier two documents were shown to  35 the witness, the ones that weren't marked.  3 6 MR. GRANT:  No, I don't.  37 MR. MACAULAY:  38 Q   Do you know Johnny Wilson of Gitanmaax?  39 A   Johnny Wilson?  40 Q   Yes.  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   What house -- is he a member of the Frog Clan?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And what house does he belong to?  45 A   He has an Indian chief's name.  He's the chief.  He  46 has a house -- his own house.  47 Q   What house is that? 18210  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A It's -- I forgot.  Skiik'm something.  2 Q He doesn't belong to the House of Nika teen?  3 A No,  no.  4 Q Does he have a fishing site in 4-Mile Canyon?  5 A No.  6 Q Does he fish there?  7 A Yes, he fishes there.  8 Q And whose site does he use?  9 A Well, he figured it was his brother's site, Moses  10 Wilson, but Moses Wilson was actually using Nika  11 teen's fishing site on the same reason that Donald  12 Mowatt.  There was a reason why they fished there.  13 And when Moses died, he's supposed to let it go, but  14 Johnny keep on using it, and he's fishing in Nika  15 teen's.  He's setting his net right at --  16 Q Nika teen's site?  17 A Yeah, and Gwinwilaat.  18 Q And has he got Nika teen's permission?  19 A I don't think so.  20 Q Well, your great aunt Sophia Mowatt has told you that  21 he hasn't got Nika teen's permission, hasn't she?  22 A Not my aunt, no.  It's Ellen Johnson -- Ellen Woods  23 told me.  2 4 Q And —  25 A That's Nika teen's mother.  26 Q Nika teen's mother?  27 A Yeah.  28 Q And how many years has Johnny Wilson been fishing  29 there?  30 A Oh, few years now.  Over 10 years I think he's been  31 using that.  And I believe they told him to leave at  32 one time, and -- I don't know -- he didn't.  33 Q In 4-Mile Canyon are there fishing sites that you used  34 to use that are no longer used?  35 A That I used to use?  36 Q Yes.  37 A Not up in 4-Mile.  38 Q Not at 4-Mile?  39 A No.  40 Q Are there fishing sites in the Hagwilget Canyon that  41 you used to use that you no longer use?  42 A We still use them, but not as much.  43 Q Do you use the same fishing techniques as you used to  44 use?  45 A No, I use nets now.  46 Q You don't do any gaffing now?  47 A No.  Ever since that rock was blown out, we don't gaff 18211  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 there no more.  2 Q   But you use the same site?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   Sites.  5 A   Yes, with a net.  If the -- like I said before, it all  6 depends on the river.  When the river's high, then  7 there's always a place to set net.  8 Q   Now, I'm showing the witness, my lord -- your lordship  9 will recall that early in the trial a petition  10 regarding fishing sites was marked as Exhibit 26 and  11 certain schedules to that petition were marked,  12 including schedule D.  I'm showing the witness another  13 schedule now, schedule F.  I'll ask -- I'm going to  14 ask the witness if he has seen this before.  Do you  15 recognize that schedule to the -- a petition presented  16 by the Gitksan Carrier Tribal Council, as it was then  17 called, regarding the Hagwilget fishing grounds?  18 A   I seen Tsitsk there.  19 Q   I beg your pardon?  20 A   Tsitsk.  That's Hagwilget.  21 Q   Yes.  22 A   Gitksan call it Tsitsk.  23 MR. GRANT:  T-s-i-t-s-k.  2 4    MR. MACAULAY:  25 Q   Do you recognize this document, which bears your name?  26 You see there fishing sites numbered on the map?  2 7 A   Oh.  28 Q   And then over on the right-hand side there's the site  29 number and the clan, the owner, and then the English  30 name of the owner.  31 A   Site numbers.  That's on the left, hey.  32 Q   Well, yes, the numbers you'll find in the diagram on  33 the left-hand side, that's right.  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   But first, in fairness, I should ask if you've ever  36 seen this before?  37 A   No, I haven't.  This is the first time I seen this.  38 Q   Did you know that there was a petition made in  39 about -- in or about March of 1983 concerning fishing  40 sites on reserves?  41 A   Petition?  42 Q   Yes, a petition including petitioners such as  43 yourself.  44 A   That's within the reserve.  45 Q   Yes.  4 6 A   I know.  47 Q   Do you remember that there was -- the Tribal Council 18212  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 authorized the issuing of a petition regarding fishing  2 sites on the reserves in 1983?  3 A   Um hum, yes.  4 Q   And did you know -- well, you were a member of the  5 Gitanmaax council at that time, weren't you?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   What was your office in 1983 on the council?  8 A  What do you mean what was my --  9 Q   Were you the chief councillor?  10 A   Oh, no, just a councillor.  11 Q   You were a councillor?  12 A   Yeah.  13 Q   And you were also the head chief of your house,  14 Djogaslee --  15 A   That's right.  16 Q   — in 1983?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   Did you know that as part -- attached to the petition  19 were several schedules, maps like this showing fishing  20 sites?  Did you know that?  21 A   I didn't see them, no.  22 Q   You never saw them?  23 A   No.  24 Q   Now, according to this map, the sites we see -- the  25 sites that are claimed on your behalf are numbers 601,  26 604, 605, 606, 607, and 608, and that is the ones in  27 the Hagwilget Canyon, and you can see on this map  28 where those numbers are?  2 9 A   Um hum.  30 Q   601, 604.  Does that map show accurately all the  31 Djogaslee fishing sites?  32 A   Yes.  Yeah, it shows on there.  33 Q   So there aren't any missing?  34 A   No.  35 MR. GRANT:  I think the witness should have a chance to look at  36 that and even compare it with the other.  37 MR. MACAULAY:  Sure.  38 MR. GRANT:  He hasn't seen this at all before.  Can he compare  39 it with Exhibit 1078, tab 1?  4 0 MR. MACAULAY:  41 Q   I think he probably should.  42 A   That 603 on there has got Gyetm galdoo, which is not  43 right.  605, that's right there.  That's not right.  44 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, that shows two sites below — no, above the  45 bridge, doesn't it?  46 MR. GRANT:  On which bank?  The right bank you're referring to?  4 7 MR. MACAULAY: 18213  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   Well, they're all on the --  2 A   Right bank.  3 Q   -- right bank.  4 A   Going down river.  5 Q   Yeah.  You have no sites -- Djogaslee has no sites on  6 the other bank, has it?  7 A   No.  8 Q   So we're talking about the same thing.  And this map  9 says that there are 601 and 604, and you do have  10 two -- you've just given evidence that you have two  11 above the bridge?  12 A  Well, the important ones.  I mentioned that there's  13 quite a few sites in between these important fishing  14 holes we have.  15 Q   But the map that you put in evidence today or that  16 your council did, this map, shows these sites a way  17 above the bridge, doesn't it?  18 A   It's not too far.  19 Q   Not too far?  2 0 A   No.  21 Q   And then there are two right under the bridge?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   On both maps?  24 A   Um hum.  25 Q   And then according to this schedule F there's only one  26 more, and that's way down just near the bend, 606 --  27 I'm sorry — 608?  28 A   608.  29 MR. MACAULAY:  But today you've told his lordship that you have  30 a whole lot of sites at the bend?  31 MR. GRANT:  Two sites.  32 THE WITNESS:  No, at the bend, no.  Below the bridge.  33 MR. MACAULAY:  I see four.  34 MR. GRANT:  There's only two of Djogaslee's.  35 MR. MACAULAY:  Oh, there are two.  36 THE COURT:  Well, there are three shown on the —  37 MR. MACAULAY:  Three.  38 THE COURT:  -- map produced today in chief below the bridge, are  39 there not?  40 MR. GRANT:  But one of those — that's what I'm worried about.  41 My friend may be counting dots and not looking at the  42 names.  Two of those are Djogaslee's and one is  43 Gutginuxw's, my lord, and if my friend's saying  44 there's more sites there, then of course he's quite  45 correct, but I thought he was asking the witness that  46 there's many sites of his at that corner, and I think  47 he misunderstood that. 18214  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 MR. MACAULAY:  2 Q   Well, how many sites have you got at the corner?  3 A   There's only four below the bridge, below --  4 Q   Two right by the bridge?  5 A   Yes.  6 MR. MACAULAY:  And two more.  7 THE COURT:  Well, the map —  8 THE WITNESS:  Like I say, there's more in between those.  9 THE COURT:  Doesn't the map show four sites belonging to the  10 witness below the bridge?  11 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  12 THE COURT:  And the map attached to the petition shows three?  13 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes, my lord.  14 THE COURT:  The petition shows the witness having three above  15 the bridge, I think -- no, two above the bridge.  16 MR. MACAULAY:  Two above the bridge.  17 THE COURT:  And his earlier exhibit shows one above the bridge.  18 MR. GRANT:  The exhibit F shows two above the bridge of the  19 witness, my lord.  2 0 MR. MACAULAY:  Two.  That's a fair distance.  21 THE COURT:  And Exhibit 1078-1 only shows one.  Oh, no, it shows  22 two.  I'm sorry, there are two above.  2 3 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, there's one way above in the bay.  Well —  We don't know how far above it is.  Well, we can see the scale, my lord.  There is,  27 unfortunately, no scale of the inset on schedule F,  28 but the scale on the other -- as the witness has said,  29 they're not that far above.  You can see the scale on  30 the enlargement is -- a hundred metres is one inch, I  31 believe.  32 MR. MACAULAY:  33 Q   At any rate, you didn't have any part in -- play any  34 part in marking up this schedule F?  You weren't asked  35 to do that?  36 A   No.  37 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, I won't ask that that be marked then, my  38 lord.  39 THE COURT:  Is it in already?  40 MR. MACAULAY:  No, it isn't.  Schedule D is in.  41 THE COURT:  And the petition is in?  42 MR. MACAULAY:  And the petition is in, but F isn't.  This  43 witness says he was not --  44 THE COURT:  If you're not putting it in, Mr. Macaulay, I'll give  45 it back to you.  Okay.  4 6 MR. MACAULAY:  Thank you.  47 THE COURT:  Do you want to start something fresh, Mr. Macaulay?  2 4 MR. GRANT  2 5 THE COURT  2 6    MR. GRANT 18215  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. MACAULAY:  My lord, I'm going to start something else.  My  friend has some cross-examination as well, and unless  we go till 5:30 or 6:00, we're not going to be  finished.  THE COURT:  Well, I can only sit until five o'clock tonight.  MR. GRANT:  Could I use the extra moment to just raise something  and advise my friend?  I don't want --  THE COURT:  Well, let me — you're not finished, Mr. Macaulay?  MR. MACAULAY:  No, I'm not finished.  THE COURT:  All right.  We'll continue your cross-examination  tomorrow then.  Thank you, Mr. Macaulay.  Mr. Grant.  MR. GRANT:  My lord, I say this — I take responsibility for  this myself, and it was entirely through inadvertence  in how I organized that document.  THE COURT:  I don't like the sound of this.  Go ahead.  MR. GRANT:  I wanted to say that there was -- and my friends got  notice of all the fishing sites that Mr. Wilson would  refer to.  I had intended, fully intended to --  MR. MACAULAY:  I'll look through the thousands of pages, my  lord.  MR. GRANT:  Well, you only got it last Friday, and it's one  letter that lists those.  I had fully intended to  refer him and ask him about those sites between  Hagwilget Canyon and the mouth of the Bulkley River as  part of his direct evidence.  There are very few of  them, and it would be a question of two or three  questions, and I would be asking tomorrow morning  if -- I don't want to prejudice my friend's cross.  If  I could just reopen to ask those two or three  questions.  I just overlooked it.  I'm sure if it's a matter of counsel's inadvertence  you can do that at the opening of the proceedings  tomorrow morning.  GRANT:  Thank you, my lord.  COURT:  Thank you.  Ten o'clock, please.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until  ten o'clock tomorrow.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 5:00 P.M.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  THE COURT  MR.  THE  THE  Leanna Smith, Official Reporter 18216  L. Skoda (for Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 United Reporting Service Ltd.  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47

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