Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

Cross-Examination on Affidavit of Thomas K. Morris British Columbia. Supreme Court Nov 28, 1988

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 <3n tiit ^upvtmt Court of JirittsI] Columbia  Na 0843  Smithers Registry  BETWEEN:  Smithers, B. C.  November 28, 1988  AND  DELGAMUUKW, also know as KEN MULDOE,  suing on his own behalf and on behalf  of all other members of the HOUSE OF  DELGAMUUKW, and others,  Plaintiffs  HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN IN RIGHT OF THE  PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA and  THE ATTORNEY-GENERAL FOR CANADA,  Defendants  CROSS-EXAMINATION ON AFFIDAVIT  OF  THOMAS K. MORRIS  MURRAY ADAMS, Esq.,  DARRELL O'BYRNE, Esq.,  MS. LORYL RUSSELL,  appearing for the Plaintiffs;  appearing for the Defendant  Province of British Columbia;  appearing for the Defendant  Attorney-General for Canada.  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.. 610 -1030 WEST GEORGIA STREET, VANCOUVER, &C V6E 4H4 (604) 689-1068 T.  K.  Morris   (For  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr.   0'Byrne  1 Smithers, B. C.  2 November 28, 1988.  3  4 THOMAS K. MORRIS, Sworn:  5  6    CROSS-EXAMINATION BY_MR._0.!.BYRNE:  7  8 MR. ADAMS:  Let me put on the record, first of all I am Murray  9 Adams for the plaintiffs.  Maybe I will let you  10 introduce yourselves.  11 MR. O'BYRNE:  I am Darrell O'Byrne, appearing as agent for  12 counsel for the attorney-general of British Columbia.  13 MS. RUSSELL:  My name is Loryl Russell and I am agent for the  14 Attorney-General of Canada.  15 MR. ADAMS:  Mr. Morris speaks both English and Nuu' t'senii,  16 which is related to Wet'suwet'en.  He is going to  17 begin his testimony and go as far as he is able in  18 English.  If he has trouble with a question or an  19 answer, has trouble expressing himself in English,  20 it's our intention that he will give his evidence in  21 Nuu* t'senii and George Holland, who is already sworn  22 as an interpreter in these proceedings, will translate  23 for him.  But we will go as far as we can go in  24 English.  I should also say he has some facility in  25 reading in English but also some difficulty and some  26 vision problems, so if there are documents to be put  27 to him, that will have to be dealt with at that time.  28  29 MR. O'BYRNE:  30 Q  What is your full name?  31 A  Thomas K. Morris.  32 Q  And how old are you, sir?  33 A  My past 72.  34 Q  And what is your date of birth?  35 A  July 9th.  36 Q  July 9th?  37 A  Yes.  3 8 Q  What year please?  39 A  1916.  40 Q  Are you married?  41 A  Eh?  42 Q  Are you married?  43 A  Yes.  44 Q  And what year did you marry in?  45 A  I forget.  My wife would know.  46 Q  Have you been married a long time?  47 A  Oh, yes.  Around 35 years. T. K. Morris (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  MR. ADAMS  11  A  12  MR. O'BYR  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  About 35 years?  Yes.  What clan are you?  It's Bear Clan.  And what clan is your wife?  Now what is it?  Laksilyu?  No, no.  Frog Clan and what was it in the Indian way?  Gilseyhu.  :  His answer is Gilseyhu, Small Frog.  I just don't keep track of those things.  IE:  You don't keep track of them; is that right?  Where do you live?  Grassy Plains.  Grassy Plains?  Yes, near Grassy Plains down on Emond Road.  Did you go to school?  Back in 193 2 from New Year's to a school about six  months in and that's it.  Can you read and write English?  Don't do much writing lately but I can read.  And you can sign your name, correct?  Yes.  Have you been employed during your lifetime?  Pardon?  Have you worked during your lifetime?  I worked here and there from 1940, just odd jobs here  and there.  Then in the '60s, I was logging on the  reserve.  Then I was working for other small  operators, like sawmills, and then in '70, went to  work for a new guy up until '82.  You mentioned logging on the reserve, what reserve was  that?  R-7.  R-7?  Yes.  Where is that located near?  That's the mouth of the Tetlarose Creek.  Now, do you recall swearing an affidavit in June of  1988 in regard to the land claims case?  Yes.  All right.  Don't hear so good.  You don't hear so good?  No.  Would you like me to speak louder? T. K. Morris (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 A Yes, a little louder.  2 Q Now, that affidavit you swore, was that the first time  3 you had ever sworn an affidavit?  4 A Yes.  5 Q Had you ever given evidence in court before?  6 A Only for impaired driving. That was three times.  7 Q When you swore that affidavit, did you know you were  8 swearing that everything in it was true?  9 A Yes.  10 Q Was that explained to you?  11 A Yes.  12 Q Who explained that to you?  13 A My father.  14 Q Your father.  15 A That was, you know, talking about the area.  16 MR. ADAMS:  I think there is a confusion between the content of  17 an affidavit and the nature of an affidavit.  18 MR. O'BYRNE:  19 Q In the affidavit did you describe the boundary of the  20 land as it was told to you?  21 A Yes.  22 Q And who had told you about the boundaries of this  23 land?  24 A Years ago my father, who got it from the grandfather,  25 mentioned here and there like.  26 Q Just so we know, your father was Keom Morris; is that  27 right?  28 A Yes.  29 Q He had the same first name as your middle name,  30 correct?  31 A Yes.  32 Q And just so we are sure, what is the name of this  33 territory, what do you call this territory?  34 A From the description, you know, from Windy Point there  35 is south side head of Ootsa Lake called Windy Point.  36 Q Does this territory have a Wet'suwet'en name for it?  37 A Territory name? There is a mountain there.  38 Q Is the territory called Weeseel Ben?  39 A What?  40 Q Is the territory called Weeseel Ben?  41 MR. ADAMS:  Maybe Mr. Holland can pronounce that.  42 A Like Ootsa Lake.  43 MR. O'BYRNE:  44 Q The territory that you described in your affidavit,  45 does it have a name, the whole territory?  46 A The headwater of that country is Whitesail and then  47 the other at that Tacha Lake. T. K. Morris (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  A  Do you know the name Weeseel Ben to apply to any area?  Weeseel Ben, that means like from this country, Indian  people figure Burns Lake was higher, and Rogers Lake  lower and lower, and another lake was lower, that is  Weeseel Ben.  Did you need permission to describe this lake for the  affidavit or to describe this area for the affidavit?  Sorry I didn't hear you?  I didn't hear that.  Did you need to get permission from Lucy Namox to  describe this area for the affidavit?  Yes.  Why?  Because I have to have her affidavit.  Because what?  I have to have her affidavit.  Why did you have to have the affidavit?  Well —  Could you say that again?  For this case.  Who asked you to swear this affidavit?  Lucy.  Lucy Namox.  Did she tell you why she wanted you to swear the  affidavit?  No.  Did she give you any reason why?  No.  Your sister is Elsie Quaw?  Yes.  When you were younger, did your father take both you  and your sister, Elsie, on this territory?  I used to pack my sister on my back, you know, to go  up to the mountains and then have a camp there and  leave him there when my father go hunting.  I remember  that from the — when we went to the mountain,  mountain goat, and then children stay at the camp like  the base.  Do you know any reason why you were asked to swear  this affidavit instead of your sister, Elsie Quaw?  No.  Does your sister, Elsie Quaw, know the boundaries of  this land as well as you do?  It was later on, when we were younger, didn't know  nothing, you know.  When Lucy Namox asked you to swear this affidavit, did  she come and talk to you?  Yes. T. K. Morris (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  When was that?  Well, I don't remember that. Come down to our place  there, one time Moses David come and ask me about  these territories.  Moses David came and asked you about these  territories?  Yes.  Did you tell Moses David about the territories?  Yes.  Did you describe the boundaries of the territory to  Moses David?  Wanted to know boundaries, landmarks and things like  that.  Did you talk to him in English or in Wet'suwet'en?  Both, both.  And did Moses David take notes when he was talking to  you?  I don't think so.  Did he have a tape recorder or anything?  I believe — one time he was talking to me and my  stepmother and Moses had a tape.  What was your stepmother's name?  Veronica.  And do you know what year that was in?  That must have been a few years back because after  that Moses David was sick, didn't go down much.  He  died last year. Moses David.  Must have been around  three years ago.  Was it three years ago when Moses David talked to you  about the land?  I think somewhere around that.  And that was tape recorded?  Yes.  Do you remember what Lucy Namox told you what you had  to do to swear the affidavit?  I don't think so.  When was the last time you were on the territory that  you describe in the affidavit?  I think it was early — Eddy John was in a chopper  with us and he was taking us all down, and that was  very cold, last spring we went up in the chopper.  Eddy John, he is with the Carrier-Sekani Tribal  Council; is that correct?  Yes.  And you went up in a chopper or helicopter with Eddy  John?  Yes.  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A T. K. Morris (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 Q And did he take notes when you were talking to him?  2 A Eddy had a tape then.  3 Q That was taped, was it?  4 A Yes.  5 Q And who was taping it, was it Eddy John?  6 A Yes.  7 Q And when was that again?  8 A That's a year ago last spring, I think.  9 Q So that would be the spring of 1987?  10 A Yes.  11 Q And that was before you swore this affidavit, correct?  12 A Yes.  That was before.  13 Q And was that before Lucy Namox asked to you swear the  14 affidavit?  15 A Yes.  16 Q Why did Eddy John want you to fly around in a  17 helicopter with him on the land?  18 A So they know where the boundary is.  19 Q And who else besides you and Eddy John and the pilot  20 were up the helicopter?  21 A Some other men came along but just for the ride.  22 Q How many other men?  23 A There was George Louie from Cheslatta.  24 Q And is he Wet'suwet'en or Nuu' t'senii?  25 A Eh?  26 Q What — is he Wet'suwet'en?  27 A Cheslatta, what you call Nuu' t'senii.  28 Q But that time you have told me about in the  29 helicopter, did you actually land in the territory?  30 A No, we landed on the north end of Dome. That's across  31 Ootsa Lake.  3 2 Q The north end of Dome?  33 A Yes.  34 Q But you didn't do any trapping or fishing on that  35 trip?  36 A No, there was a lot of snow and ice on the lake at  37 that time. We just landed on the mountain. And from  3 8 there, when it was part ways and we went towards  39 Tacha, and across Tacha about halfway up, and then we  40 landed on the mountain.  41 Q And is that the first time you had ever been in a  42 helicopter over that territory?  43 A Yes.  44 Q Before that time, the spring of 1987, when was the  45 last time you were on the Weeseel ben territory?  46 A That was in '62, in the spring of '62 me and my father  47 went trapping beaver for one week. T. K. Morris (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  Q  6  A  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  So from 1962 to 1987 you didn't go on that territory;  is that correct?  No. That was on the north side, you know, of Andrew  Bay, around that area.  You said you were at a bay?  Andrew Bay there. There was a logging camp there.  Eurocan Pulp and Paper.  When you were a young boy your father, Keom Morris,  took you out on this land; is that correct?  Yes.  Did he show you the various points of land and water  that made up the boundaries?  Yes.  And did you travel over all of the territory or just  parts of it?  Part some places, but only time when we went to see it  all was by the chopper.  The only time you saw all of the boundary of the  territory was in the helicopter in 1987 with Eddy  John?  Yes.  I am going to show you a copy of what's been marked  Exhibit 671 in the trial, that's your signature down  there?  Yes.  All right.  It says Thomas K. Morris, right?  Yes, right.  Do you remember signing this affidavit?  Yes.  Now, this affidavit is written in English, right?  Hm-hmm, yes.  Was it translated into Wet'suwet'en for you?  Translated — I don't —  I am sorry, Mr. Morris, I didn't hear you.  It's in English, that's all I know about that.  But when you signed your name here on this paper, you  signed it in front of this lady called Shirley  Meldrum?  Yes.  And did she come to your home?  No, sitting beside.  Sorry?  She was watching and sitting beside me.  She sat beside you?  Yes, at a table there.  And did she explain to you what the words were in  here? T. K. Morris (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 A Yes, read it out to me.  2 Q Who read it out to you?  3 A I don't know who read it.  4 Q Was it a man or a lady?  5 A It could have been a man, you know. That's it — you  6 know — sometimes I don't remember.  7 Q All right. Well, was it read to you in English or was  8 it read to you in Wet'suwet'en?  9 A English.  10 Q Did you need any of it translated to you?  11 A No, I understand pretty well all of it.  12 Q All right. Did you make any corrections in the  13 affidavit before you signed your name?  14 A No.  15 Q On the second page there is some things crossed out,  16 do you see that?  17 A I see it's crossed out but I couldn't see the words.  18 Q Was it crossed out when you signed it?  19 A Seems that was all crossed out before I signed it.  20 Q Before you swore this affidavit, did you describe the  21 boundaries to somebody so they could write them down  22 for you?  23 A Only what I remember it was taped, you know, and Moses  24 David and Eddy John I believe made the tape at  25 Veronica's place too.  26 Q Did you speak to Marvin George about the boundaries?  27 A Yes.  28 Q And was that before you swore the affidavit?  29 A I believe I was there too.  3 0 Q Sorry, I couldn't hear you.  31 A I believe he was there too.  32 Q With — who else was with him?  33 A Eddy, sometimes Eddy John comes with, but I don't  34 remember now.  Could be Eddy John.  Moses wasn't there  35 that time, I don't think. And George I think was  36 there.  37 Q And the George you are referring to is George Holland,  38 who is here today?  39 A Yes.  40 Q Okay.  Now, when you were speaking to Marvin George,  41 was he taking notes?  42 A I don't think so, no.  43 Q Sorry, I couldn't hear you?  44 A I don't know.  45 Q You don't know?  46 A No.  47 MR. ADAMS:  I think what he said was I don't think so and then T. K. Morris (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 he said no.  2 MR. O'BYRNE:  I will just confirm it.  3 Q Was Marvin George taking notes when you told him about  4 the boundaries?  5 A If that is correct or whatever.  6 Q Could you say that again?  I couldn't hear you.  7 A Got everything correct?  8 Q Who asked you that?  9 A Mark it right.  10 Q Margaret Wright?  11 A No, no.  12 Q Or mark it right?  13 A Yes, make sure everything —  14 Q How many times did you speak to Marvin George about  15 the boundaries?  16 A Once at our place, I think two or three times.  I  17 couldn't say.  18 Q Two or three times?  19 A Yes.  20 Q And would he write things down and then come back to  21 you and say, "Is this right, Thomas?"  22 A Yes.  23 Q Would you correct him?  24 A Yes.  25 Q And if he was wrong, would you tell him?  26 A That's what I agreed to everything was right, you see.  27 Q All right.  Did you ever tell him he was wrong and to  28 make a correction?  29 A Only this one here.  30 Q So this is the only correction, this crossing out?  31 A Yes.  32 Q Did you look at any maps?  33 A Yes, but I don't understand maps very much.  34 Q Were you shown any maps?  35 A Always had maps, you know, but — all the map, looking  36 at the paper, and marks there, and look at the land  37 and it's different.  38 Q It's different than when you look at a place and then  39 look at a map?  40 A Yes.  So I don't understand them pretty good.  41 Q Just so that I am clear, you think this was crossed  42 out before you signed the affidavit?  43 A Yes.  44 Q Do you know who did that crossing out?  45 A I couldn't remember now.  46 Q Did you tell anybody to cross something out of the  47 affidavit? Could you say that again, Mr. Morris? 10  T. K. Morris (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 A I wouldn't know what words was on there.  2 Q How many times did you see the affidavit like it is  3 right now, typewritten in four pages?  4 A At the time I signed it.  5 Q So you only saw it once?  6 A Yes.  7 Q What chiefs have the territory around the territory  8 you have described here?  9 A What chiefs?  There was Chief Louie of Cheslatta.  10 Q Where is his territory in relation to this, is it  11 south of here?  12 A This is the land, Whitesail, and Tacha and Chief Louie  13 mainly goes to Tacha.  14 Q All right.  Is that south of the territory you have  15 talked about in here?  16 A No.  17 Q Which direction is it?  18 A That's north.  19 Q All right.  And is Chief Louie Wet'suwet'en?  20 A No, Nuu' t'senii.  21 Q What other chiefs have territory around there?  22 A The chief was Paddy Isaac, Paddy Isaac was chief, and  23 in the '40s.  In the '40s, it was chief Paddy Isaac.  24 Q Do you know what his Wet'suwet'en chief name was, his  25 hereditary name?  26 A No.  27 MR. ADAMS:  It may not have been Wet'suwet'en.  28 MR. O'BYRNE:  2 9 Q All right.  Was he Wet'suwet'en?  30 A Eh?  31 Q Was Chief Paddy Isaac Wet'suwet'en?  32 A Yes.  He lived at Broman Lake, that's where he lived.  33 Q Do you know if there is any Cheslatta chiefs who owned  34 territory next to this territory you have described?  35 A Young guys, young fellow, one of young Peters, I  36 forget his first name.  37 Q Is Peter his last name?  38 A Yes.  39 Q And where is that territory, is it south of the  40 territory you have described here?  41 A The chief there lives in Uncha.  42 Q In Uncha?  43 A Yes.  That's where Chief Peter is.  44 Q Now, did anybody other than — did anybody other than  45 your father, Keom Morris, describe the land to you?  46 A My father was only one can understand English a little  47 better than the others did. 11  T. K. Morris (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 Q Before you swore this affidavit, did you talk to  2 anybody else about the boundaries of the land?  3 A Eddy John.  4 Q Eddy John?  5 A Moses David and George, I believe I did.  6 Q George Holland?  7 A Yes.  8 Q Was in anybody else you talked to?  9 A I couldn't remember.  10 Q Well —  11 A I don't keep track of all that.  12 Q Did you talk with your sister, Elsie Quaw, about these  13 boundaries?  14 A No.  15 Q Is it true that George Louie and Veronica Edmonds were  16 the people who showed you the boundaries of this land?  17 A My father did.  Just my father.  18 Q But did — all right.  Did George Louie or Veronica  19 Edmonds, show you the boundaries of this land?  20 A George did only at Tacha, because I had never been  21 that way before.  22 Q So George Louie showed you the boundaries at Tacha?  23 A Tacha, yes.  24 Q That's because you had never been to that part of the  25 territory.  26 MR. ADAMS:  Before, he said.  27 A No.  28 MR. O'BYRNE:  29 Q So your father, Keom Morris, then, never showed you  30 that part of the territory?  31 A No.  32 Q What part of the territory — excuse me.  Did Veronica  33 Edmonds show you any part of the territory?  34 A In the Whitesail area.  Because Veronica's father from  35 Cheslatta, they used to go up trapping and hunting.  36 Q So she showed you that area?  37 A Yes.  38 Q And that's because your father, Keom Morris, had never  39 shown you that area?  40 A This was between Ootsa Lake and Whitesail, there was a  41 small lake there. We trapped there.  And sometimes  42 Chief Louie, they go to Whitesail.  And sometimes we  43 go there.  44 Q Did your father, Keom Morris, ever show you the area  45 of the land by Whitesail?  46 A Yes.  47 Q All right. Was that the same part of the territory 12  T. K. Morris (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  that Veronica Edmonds showed you?  Yes.  Why was it that Veronica Edmonds showed you the  territory as well?  So we know, as we grow older, we know what the area is  about.  How old were you when your father, Keom Morris, showed  you the Whitesail area?  18.  18?  Yes.  How old were you when Veronica Edmonds showed you the  area in the Whitesail area?  26, 19 — 1944 or somewhere around that way we have  been up once.  Was that 1944?  Somewhere around that.  Now, you're a member of the Cheslatta people, are you?  Yes.  It's also known as the Omineca Band?  Yes.  For  several  years you were a councillor  of the Omineca  band?  Yes.  And your wife was a chief councillor  of the Omineca  Band?  Yes.  You're not a Wet'suwet'en, are you?  Eh?  You're not Wet'suwet'en, are you?  Wet'suwet'en, yes. My father is, my father's mother  was from this country.  Either from Hazelton or  Moricetown, I learned all that, and my grandfather's  Cheslatta and my mother is Cheslatta and my father  they all speak Wet'suwet'en.  Tsoyea tow taen?  Yes.  What language did they speak again?  Wet'suwet'en.  All right.  So you consider yourself a Wet'suwet'en?  Yes.  The Omineca Band is a member of the Carrier-Sekani  Tribal Council?  Yes.  I forget if I asked you this, but do you live at  Tetlarose Lake?  The mouth of Tetlarose Creek on to Francis. 13  T. K. Morris (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 Q  Tetlarose Creek?  2 A  Yes.  3 Q  You're not represented in this land claims action, are  4 you?  5 A  No.  6 Q  You have no claim to any of the territory in this  7 action?  8 A  No.  9 Q  You don't have any claim to the territory that you  10 described in your affidavit?  11 A  No.  12 Q  Sorry, that's no?  13 A  No.  14 Q  When did your father, Keom Morris, die?  15 A  '73 or '74.  I don't remember that exactly. On the  16 grave covering and the cross was knocked down by a  17 wind.  There wasn't enough weight, the marking is  18 down.  19 Q  Do you know if Lucy Namox has ever been on the  20 territory that you described in your affidavit?  21 A  Elsie — Elsie Namox — not aware of it.  22 Q  Do you know if Lucy Namox has ever trapped on this  23 territory you described?  24 A  Probably when I was young there has been lots of  25 people come with us, you know.  Come with my father  26 and my grandfather, relatives comes with them  27 sometimes.  28 Q  Is Lucy Namox a relative of yours?  2 9 A  Yes.  To my father.  30 Q  And how is she related to your father?  31 A  The same clan.  32 Q  Is she a cousin or a niece of his?  33 A  It's the clan, that's all I know about.  Gilseyhu.  34 Q  Mr. Morris, you let me know if you want a break. Are  35 you all right?  36 A  Yes, I am okay.  37 Q  Do you know if there is any Indians trapping on the  38 land now?  39 A  No, they usually have nothing to do with this area  40 because cousins of mine, Steve Morris's boys, two of  41 them are at Moricetown, only their names on there now.  42 Q  They have registered traplines?  43 A  I understand they sold it to some white man.  44 Q  Do you know when they did that?  45 A  Sometime last year sometime.  46 Q  And are there white men trapping on the land that you  47 describe in the affidavit now? 14  T. K. Morris (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1  A  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  11  Q  12  A  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  They bought the trapline and must be trapping.  And  they are around there anyways.  During your lifetime, have white men been trapping in  the area you describe in your affidavit?  The trapline here and there, all surrounded, you know.  There was Charlie Lindquist was one of them up around  sale.  Was he a white man?  Yes.  Lindquist and there was some few others.  One  fellow McKinley, Tom McKinley.  He was also a white man?  He was white man. And he goes on Big Eutsuk Lake.  And then there was another, one George Shanifer on  Little Whitesail.  Anybody else that you can remember?  Harrison boys used to go up there.  Did John Charles Shelford have a trapline there?  John Shelford is around — he was from Andrew Bay and  what was the name of that hill there, between the lake  and Ootsa, there is a mountain there, they go up on  that.  John Shelford.  Mount Wells?  Yes, he goes also to the west end of it.  So he had — John Shelford had a trapline in the  territory you described?  Not on that side.  So his trapline was not in the territory you described  here?  No.  How about Wilfred Thomas, did he have a trapline in  the territory you described?  Wilfred Thomas? Wilfred Thomas? I don't know the  man.  You don't know —  No.  George Coliss?  Oh, yes, George Coliss is the one that bought from  Morris and Eddy.  So George Coliss bought the trapline from George  Morris and Eddy Morris?  Yes.  And they are cousins of yours?  Yes.  Did George Morris trap on the land that you described  in your affidavit?  On the last year or whenever they sold it to him, I  don't know if they did. 15  T. K. Morris (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 Q Do you know if George Coliss trapped on the territory  2 you described?  3 A Not that I know of.  4 Q How about William Palmer, do you know if he had a  5 trapline in the area?  6 A William Palmer?  7 Q William Palmer.  8 A Palmer?  9 Q Palmer, yes.  10 A Palmer?  11 Q Yes.  12 A I don't know.  13 Q You don't know. All right. How about Alfred Eakin?  14 A Yes, he had a trapline there.  I mean, west end of  15 Wells Mountain.  16 Q And was his trapline on the territory you described in  17 the affidavit?  18 A He is north of his boundary, north of Tacha Ridge.  19 Q Eakin*s trapline was not within the boundaries you  20 described in your affidavit?  21 A No.  22 Q How about Rupert Seel?  23 A Rupert Seel.  24 Q Or it may be Rupert Sale?  25 A George Seel you know, he used to trap up at Tacha  26 River along the mountains there in places.  27 Q Was he a white man?  28 A Yes.  Could be his son, that Rupert.  I don't know.  I  29 didn't know the name of his son.  I know he had a son  30 though.  31 Q Was he trapping then within the area you described?  32 A Yes, that was along Tacha Ridge.  33 Q That's within the area that you described in the  34 affidavit?  35 A Yes.  36 Q Do you know if any of those people have permission  37 from Lucy Namox to trap there?  38 A I don't know.  3 9 Q Was some of the area that you describe in your  40 affidavit flooded by Alcan?  41 A Yes.  42 Q Do you know how much?  43 A Whitesail.  44 Q In Whitesail?  45 A No, that's where the head of Ootsa Lake used to be,  46 you know, quite a bit of low land there all across the  47 end there, the lake at the end there is over a mile 16  T. K. Morris (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 across. And in places it's two miles across.  2 Q  It's all covered in water now?  3 A  All covered in water. And then that area, both sides,  4 people can trap there but there is no more, covered  5 now, right up to the mountains.  6 Q  All right. And were there any Cheslatta people living  7 in the area that got flooded there?  8 A  No, Cheslatta people live on Cheslatta Lake.  They got  9 moved out of there because of the dam might break  10 there, be bad for them, so got moved out and the same  11 way with Skins, they have also moved out.  12 Q  And the Skins are Wet'suwet'en?  13 A  Yes.  Below, below the spillway where the Skin Lake  14 is.  15 Q  And do you know where they moved the Skins to?  16 A  Uncha, up along Uncha.  17 Q  Was the area you described in your affidavit  18 originally Cheslatta territory?  19 A  My father, my grandfather is from Cheslatta.  Must  20 have been.  21 Q  So you think because your grandfather was Cheslatta  22 the area you described in your affidavit must have  23 been Cheslatta land?  24 A  I think because of that, Chief Louie, all from  25 Cheslatta.  26 Q  So my question was:  So you think that the land that  27 you described in your affidavit is Cheslatta land?  28 A  I can't be sure.  29 Q  You can't be sure.  So it could be either Cheslatta or  30 Wet'suwet'en?  31 A  Right.  32 Q  The answer was right?  33 A  It could be either one.  3 4 Q  Thank you.  35  36 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED FOLLOWING RECESS)  37  38 MR. O'BYRNE:  39 Q  Mr. Morris, did you ever trap on the land that's in  40 your affidavit that you talked about?  41 A  1962.  42 Q  Not since 1962?  43 A  Yes.  44 Q  But before 1962 did you trap there?  45 A  Oh, yes, during the hard times, during the '30s, all  46 ten years.  47 Q  And — 17  T. K. Morris (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  the '30s,  and a few  otter, links  three all  We have been trapping there year after year.  What sort of animals did you trap?  Well, most animals they trapped out in the '30s, a lot  of trappers, marten were pretty scarce  fishers in the winter and then fox and  and beaver was scarce too, only two or  winter.  Where did you go to sell the fur?  My father actually shipped them into Vancouver during  the '30s, early '30s, you know, about '33 and '34,  shipped to the Little Bros, auction in Vancouver.  Little, what little auction?  Little Bros, auction in Vancouver.  Little Bros.?  Yes.  Now, you worked for Eurocan for about ten years, 12  years?  From August in '70 to February in '82.  And do you get a pension from Eurocan now?  I get IWA pension and Canada Pension.  Are you aware that Goohlaht or Lucy Namox claims two  pieces, big pieces of territory in the area that you  described in your affidavit?  Yes.  Do you know why Lucy Namox had so much territory in  that area?  It didn't matter to me.  Not concerned about it.  Do you know Jimmy Andrews?  He was married to my aunt, my father's sister.  And was Jimmy Andrews a Cheslatta?  No, no.  From up this country.  Is Wet'suwet'en?  Wet'suwet'en.  Have you ever attended any Wet'suwet'en feasts?  I couldn't get that.  Have you ever attended any Wet'suwet'en feasts?  Feast?  Feasts.  Feast.  Something like potlatch?  All right.  Is that what —  That's what I mean, yes.  I attended a few.  Have you ever attended one of those where the land you  described in your affidavit was talked about?  No, no.  Unless somebody dies, then I go, other than  that, it's left out for me. 18  T. K. Morris (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. O'Byrne  1 Q  But when someoody dies and you go, was the land you  2 described in your affidavit, was it ever discussed?  3 A  No.  4 Q  Have you ever heard Lucy Namox describe the land that  5 you talked about at one of these occasions?  6 A  In the beginning of this, like before went around in a  7 helicopter.  Then I know Lucy Namox. Her name was in  8 it.  Before that I never heard.  9 Q  So that was the first time you heard it?  10 A  Yes.  11 Q  And was that this year, 1988?  12 A  No, no that was three or four years.  13 Q  Now, when you were a band councillor for the Omineca  14 band, did you spend or use funds which are called B.  15 C. Special funds?  16 MR. ADAMS:  Sorry, I will object to that question, because the  17 Omineca Band are not plaintiffs and nothing to do with  18 the plaintiffs, is my understanding.  19 MR. O'BYRNE: But I believe they are Wet'suwet'en and he has  20 indicated that there is a connection there.  And if  21 you still maintain the objection, I would like a short  22 adjournment so I could consider my reply to it.  23 MR. ADAMS:  No, I will withdraw that. Go ahead and ask.  24 MR. O'BYRNE:  25 Q  I will restate my question, Mr. Morris.  26 You were a band councillor of the Omineca Band for  27 many years, right?  28 A  How long a term was that?  29 Q  I didn't hear you.  Sorry.  30 A  Two years to each term I believe, for two terms.  31 Q  And during that time, did you have something to do  32 with money that was called the B. C. Special funds?  33 A  Not for my own purpose but it was added on a per  34 capita basis.  35 Q  On a per capita basis?  36 A  Yes.  37 Q  Did you direct how that money was going to be spent a  38 per capita basis?  3 9 A  Well, we used to the best way we can, in other words,  40 much to something and it's not enough right now, so  41 what we did was one or two get some, something  42 repaired, like power saw repairs and things like that,  43 you use it for.  44 Q  Did you also use it for things like digging wells for  45 people?  46 A  I don't know if we done that or not.  47 Q  What were the uses that you used the money for? 19  T. K. Morris (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 A  As far as I remember, fixing power saws and things  2 like that.  Small repair work.  3 Q  Repairs to outboard motors and things like that?  4 A  Yes.  5 Q  Anything else that you can recall?  6 A  As far as I can recall, made a purchase or something.  7 Q  How about assisting people in putting a metal roof on  8 a barn; do you remember that?  9 A  Metal roof on the barn?  10 Q  For Alex Peter?  11 A  Oh, Alex Peter, yes.  12 Q  Was money used for that?  13 A  No, it was a separate band, Alex Peter was Cheslatta  14 Band, not Omineca Band, and he came with us to the  15 meetings sometimes.  Learned something about it.  16 Q  When you were on the Omineca Band Council as a band  17 councillor, did you also have something to do with the  18 leasing of the Felix George Reserve to white people?  19 A  I did because I believe the Indian department had  20 Indian agent at that time, and he suggested we do  21 that.  22 Q  And you did, the band council did do that, correct?  23 A  Yes.  24 MR. O'BYRNE:  I believe those are all the questions I have for  25 Mr. Morris.  26  27    CROSS^XAMINATION BY MS.. RUSSELL:  28  29 MS. RUSSELL:  30 Q  Mr. Morris, are the eastern Carrier called the Tsoyeas  31 towtaen?  32 A  Eh?  33 Q  Are the eastern Carrier called Tsoyeas towtaen?  34 A  Oh, yes, eastern Cheslatta all south from that  35 country. Tsoyeas towtaen, that means small spruce  36 tree.  37 Q  Tsoyeas towtaen. Where do these people live, the  38 Tsoyeas towtaen?  39 A  I heard about it, mother mentioned them, they live  40 south of Cheslatta.  41 Q  Okay.  So they are outside the area you describe?  42 A  Yes.  43 Q  They are south of it?  44 A  Yes.  45 Q  Where do the western Carrier live?  46 A  Pardon?  47 Q  Where do the western Carrier live? 20  T. K. Morris (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1 A  Where they live?  2 Q  Yes, what area of the — what area to the western  3 Carrier live in?  4 MR. ADAMS:  Maybe you can establish if he knows where the  5 western Carrier are.  6 MS. RUSSELL:  7 Q  I will see — the Whoo Nuss towtaen, do you —  8 A  Oh, yes.  9 Q  Sorry, Mr. Morris.  10 A  Far west people, you know. People who like from  11 Hazelton, Moricetown and you go to the mountains, and  12 they go far, far west, far west of the far mountains  13 like. And this area to the far end of the mountains.  14 You go there.  Those people, people like them, they  15 have certain amount of time to do the trapping and  16 hunting.  And hard to keep up to.  They say women  17 follow the cry. You know, women follow.  18 Q  Pardon me?  19 A  Somebody who is interested in the girl and them  20 families go, so he goes with them and he gets lost in  21 the bush and then cry about it.  22 Q  Can't keep up with Tsoyeas towtaen?  23 A  Can't keep up with.  24 Q  Are the Tsoyeas towtaen and the Whoo Nuss towtaen both  25 Wet'suwet'en people?  26 A  No, no.  Those are different language.  27 Q  Which group speaks a different language from the  28 Wet'suwet'en?  29 A  Those in the western area, west of Ootsa Lake.  Half  30 Ootsa Lake's Wet'suwet'en, they live at Ootsa Lake.  31 And Jimmy Andrew at the head of Ootsa Lake, he was  32 Ts'o yes to taen and also Michell Alex and his father,  33 I call him old Alex, he lives there.  34 Q  And you say they are Wet'suwet'en?  35 A  And Jim Holland, he is Wet'suwet'en too. Lelt,  36 between Andrews Lake, and what do they call that,  37 other lake further west, next to Nazidin Mountain.  38 That's where they lived. And they trapped from that  3 9 area west and north of Sebolla Mountain up in that  40 area, as far as Nanika Lake.  41 Q  Okay.  42 A      Nanika  is a  twin lake or  two lakes.  43 Q      Do the eastern Carrier  speak a different language from  44 Wet'suwet'en?  45 A  Yes.  46 Q  Okay.  You mentioned Jimmy Andrew, did Jimmy Andrew  47 own Binta Lake? 21  T. K. Morris (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Russell  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47   MR. ADA!  Binta?  Binta Lake.  Binta, that's — Binta Lake that's across Uncha, no.  He trapped, stayed around Ootsa Lake.  Did you — sorry.  Well, his parents be there before him.  Been up at Ootsa Lake?  Yes, head of Ootsa.  Did you tell Alfred Joseph and Moses David, in 1983,  that Jimmy Andrew owned Binta Lake?  Binta?  '82, '83. Did you say '82 and '83?  I did, but do you remember you met with Alfred Joseph  and Moses David and Alfred Joseph recorded what you  said on a tape recorder?  Oh, yes.  And in that interview, do you remember discussing  Jimmy Andrew?  Yes.  And you said he was Laksamshu, do you remember that?  Yes.  And do you remember that you said that he owned Binta  Lake?  Binta Lake?  You don't remember saying that?  Binta Lake is — Binta Lake, white man trapped there,  I forget his name now, one of well-known oldtimer.  Barney Mulvaney.  By name of?  He was trapping at Binta Lake back in early '30s and  before that even.  Early '30s and before that is what you said a white  man was trapping there?  Barney Mulvaney.  Barney Mulvaney?  Yes.  He was the one that owned a trapline there.  Okay.  Binta Lake, and saw lake here and Binta Lake there.  Binta Lake.  I don't think Andrew has anything to do  with that lake.  And you don't remember telling Alfred Joseph that  Binta Lake itself belongs to Jimmy Andrew who was a  Laksamshu, you don't remember saying that?  I don't remember.  You don't remember.  Okay. Thank you, Mr. Morris, that's all that I  have for you right now.  Thank you very much.  :  I have a few questions of you, Thomas, before you 22  T.  K.   Morris   (For  Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms.  Russell  1 get away  from us.  2 RE-EXAMINATION BY   MR.   ADAMS:  3 MR.   ADAMS:  4 Q  When you were answering Mr. 0'Byrne's questions this  5 afternoon you said that your clan was Gitdumden, do  6 you remember that?  7 A  Gitdumden.  8 Q  What is your mother's clan?  9 A  The same. You know, the Indian always follow mother's  10 side.  11 Q  You always follow your mother's side?  12 A  Yes.  13 Q  Does that apply to ownership of territories too?  14 A  Yes.  15 Q  Something that may not have been clear also from Mr.  16 O'Byrne's questions, you were asked about Whitesail  17 Ben and also about Whitesail Lake, is that the same  18 lake?  19 A  Whitesail the same.  20 Q  You mentioned a mountain, you said that your father  21 took you there and you used to pack your sister on  22 your back; do you recall the name of that mountain  23 that you were talking about?  24 A  I don't remember that in English but in Indian it's  25 C'ele'le'gheel Dzel.  That's between Eutsuk Lake and  26 Whitesail.  The first mountain.  The first mountain  27 from the head of Ootsa Lake.  28 MR. ADAMS: We can just pause to get a spelling of that.  29 THE TRANSLATOR: Whitesail Lake, C-'-E-L-E-'-L-E-'-G-H-E-E-L,  30 D-Z-E-L.  31 MR. ADAMS:  3 2 Q  Thomas, Mr. O'Byrne asked you some questions about  33 what you trapped for on this Whitesail Lake territory,  34 and you also mentioned hunting there; what did you  35 hunt for?  36 A  Whitesail?  37 Q  In the territory described in your affidavit which has  38 Whitesail Lake inside it?  3 9 A  Hunting?  40 Q  Hm-hmm.  41 A  Usually go up in the mountain in September for  42 mountain goat and pick berries too around the base of  43 the mountains.  44 Q  And which mountains do you mean?  45 A  That's the same place that I told.  46 Q  Same place that we have been talking about?  47 A  Yes. 23  T. K. Morris (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Adams  1 Q  Did you hunt for other animals as well?  2 A  On the base of that mountain on both sides up a ways,  3 don't know how far, trapping, trap marten, fisher.  4 Q  Are there any other animals that you shot?  5 A  The whole area of that mountain, around the base of  6 the mountain, there is — get some fox, otter and  7 beaver.  8 Q  Did you shoot any moose?  9 A  Moose or — needed moose, we shot moose. Too hard and  10 heavy to pack so try to take them close as we can.  11 Q  You were asked some questions and gave some answers  12 about Chief Louie, and Chief Louie, I understood your  13 evidence, was Nuu't'senii?  14 A  Yes.  15 Q  What clan did he belong to?  16 A  Eh?  17 Q  What clan was Chief Louie, what tribe?  18 A  That I don't know.  I believe Elizabeth Jack is  19 supposed to know that.  20 Q  You mentioned that some of the Cheslatta chiefs own  21 territory next to the one described in your affidavit,  22 do you remember that, talking about the Cheslatta  23 chiefs?  24 A  Chief Louie's the first one in that area. Cheslatta.  25 Chief Louie was first one.  26 Q  Was Chief Louie a chief because he had a chief's name  27 or was he a chief because he was elected a chief?  28 A  Chief Louie, I don't know if he was elected or not.  29 The first priest came around, you know, made him a  30 church chief, a head man for the church, make him  31 chief. And he might have been for that purpose.  32 Q  Did Chief Louie have a chief's name that you knew, an  33 Indian name?  34 A  No.  35 Q  Mr. O'Byrne was asking you about whether you had gone  36 to Wet'suwet'en potlatches, and you mentioned going  37 when somebody died, could you say how many times in  38 your life you have been to a potlatch in Moricetown?  39 A  Moricetown? Jimmy Thomas and Elizabeth Joseph, Jack  40 Joseph and then I believe his son was named Alex, he  41 would be there too.  There was a few more I couldn't  42 think of the names.  43 Q  Okay.  44 A  That we have been to.  45 Q  Mr. O'Byrne was asking you about being both a  46 councillor and chief councillor of the Omineca Band,  47 that is a position you were elected to? 24  T. K. Morris (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Adams  1 A  Yes.  The first time by election and the second time  2 was by acclamation.  3 Q  Do you have a chief's name in Indian?  4 A  No.  5 Q  Mr. O'Byrne was asking you about how you had — how  6 the Omineca Band had spent money from the B. C.  7 Special, do you remember that?  8 A  Yes.  9 Q  Did you, at the time you were receiving and  10 administering that money and since, did you understand  11 any connection between the use of that money and the  12 ownership of the land?  13 A  No.  14 Q  Ms. Russell was asking you about the Oonisto d'en, do  15 you remember that?  16 A  I couldn't hear very well.  17 Q  Do you remember Ms. Russell asking you about the  18 Oonisto d'en?  19 A  Oh, yes, yes.  20 Q  Do you know what clan those people belong to?  21 A  Eh?  22 Q  Do you know what clan, what tribe those people belong  23 to?  24 A  The clan they belong to there was Jim Holland and  25 Michell Alex and Peter Alex.  I know those.  And Jim  26 Holland and I don't know the clan.  27 Q  All the people you told her about?  28 A  Yes.  29 Q  Okay.  30 MR. ADAMS:  Those are all my questions.  Thanks.  31  32   (Concluded)  33  34  35 I hereby certify the foregoing  36 to be a true and accurate  37 transcript of the proceedings  38 herein to the best of my skill  39 and ability.  40  42 -UJ^O/^AA ,  43 \  AA                                                                                Wilf Roy ^  45 Official Reporter  46  47 


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