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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-07-11] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jul 11, 1989

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 18498  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Vancouver, B. C.  2 July 11, 1989.  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  In the Supreme Court of British Columbia,  5 Tuesday, July 11, 1989.  6 Delgamuukw versus her Majesty the Queen, at bar, my  7 lord.  8 IGOR STECIW, Resumed:  9  10 THE REGISTRAR:  Would you state your name, please?  11 THE WITNESS:  My name is Igor Steciw.  12 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie?  13 MR. RUSH:  My lord, just before my friend starts, I have a  14 matter to raise with the court and it has to do with  15 the production of documents.  I made a request last  16 Friday for the production of certain documents  17 pertaining to the evidence of Dr. Steciw and some  18 documents were delivered to me yesterday, which  19 documents I understood to be documents in the  20 possession of the witness.  And the letter and the  21 Notice to Produce that I delivered to my learned  22 friends on Friday was directed at, in part, at the  23 witness and in part at the defendant.  And I  24 understood the production to be production of  25 documents of the witness and not of the provincial  26 defendant.  These were documents, so far as I am  27 aware, that were not listed, at least I could not see  28 them to have been listed.  And I want to raise with  29 the court now the issue of the production of the  30 documents, if there are any other documents, other  31 than the ones that were produced to me, which are in  32 the hands of the provincial defendant and which can be  33 produced before the start of the cross-examination.  34 And these are documents called Guide Reports.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, my lord, I didn't understand the Notice to  36 Produce to apply to anything other than the witness.  37 And we have provided my friend with the Guide Reports  38 that Dr. Steciw has brought with him.  None of these  39 documents, of course, were listed by the defendant,  40 they are not -- well, I suppose these reports are  41 somewhere in Victoria, but until we decided to call  42 Dr. Steciw, we never considered that.   But I thought  43 this Notice to Produce was directed to the witness and  44 that's how it was treated.  45 MR. RUSH:  Well, my friend should have referred to the letter,  46 which letter says in the first paragraph, "Please  47 provide me with copies of the following documents in 18499  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1 relation to the evidence of Igor Steciw and Barbara  2 Peden", and then there is a list of one to six.  Then,  3 in addition to that, is a Notice to Produce.  Which I  4 can see how my friends take that to be a Notice to  5 Produce in relation to the witness and that, of  6 course, is a Notice to Produce, framed up in terms of  7 documents in the possession or the power of the  8 defendant to produce.  Now these are documents that  9 are filed, it's evident these are filed with the Fish  10 and Wildlife office in Smithers, a host of other  11 documents from the Fish and Wildlife office in  12 Smithers have deluged my office, and are scattered  13 throughout the document list and, frankly, I found it  14 somewhat surprising that no documents relating to  15 guide outfitters were on the list.  Be that as it may,  16 the fact of the matter is that I think it was a  17 reasonable assumption for my friend to draw that I was  18 asking for documents in his possession.  19 THE COURT:  Documents in whose possession?  20 MR. RUSH:  The defendant's possession.  21 THE COURT:  All right.  22 MR. GOLDIE:  All I can say, my lord, as I pointed out in my  23 reply, the request in respect to Dr. Steciw and the  24 list of documents in the Notice to Produce were  25 exactly the same and I assumed the other was relating  26 to Mrs. Peden and Mr. Tourand.  There are certainly  27 items listed in the Notice to Produce that the  28 province doesn't have.  In fact one of them -- I am  29 sorry, I don't have that letter with me.  "Booking  30 schedules for all hunts guided by the guide outfitter  31 in the relevant periods of their testimony."  That's  32 number three.  Number four, "Income statements  33 relating to monies derived from their guide  34 outfitting."  Number five, "All diaries maintained by  35 them with regard to their guide outfitting activities  36 and hunts."  Those follow 1 and 2, "Records of  37 royalties paid to the minister of finance for the  38 years of the guide outfitting."  Two, "All guide  39 reports submitted to the regional manager pursuant to  40 section 55."  41 Taking that as a whole, I perhaps not in a too  42 perspicacious a way, but I took it all of these  43 related to the possession of the witness, and we got  44 in touch with Dr. Steciw, asked him to bring these,  45 and as I said in my reply, none of these were in the  46 immediate possession of the defendant.  But as soon as  47 Dr. Steciw came down, he gave us documents which 18500  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1 related to all of those, with the exception of number  2 four, income statements, which he said, and I support  3 him, have no relevance to his testimony.  4 Now, if my friend is making a request at this time  5 that we obtain from the minister of finance records of  6 royalties, all I can say is that the witness has his  7 copies and they have been produced.  I don't know  8 about Mrs. Peden, I don't know about Mr. Tourand, they  9 are not getting into town until late tonight.  10 THE COURT:  They are witnesses who are going to be called?  11 MR. GOLDIE:  They are witnesses who are about to be called and  12 the Notice to Produce relates to Dr. Steciw and  13 Barbara Peden.  14 THE COURT:  Barbara Peden is a witness to be called?  15 MR. GOLDIE:  She is a witness to be called.  And I don't know  16 whether she has records of royalties paid to the  17 minister of finance and I don't know if she has copies  18 of her guide reports.  But if I am to take this as a  19 direction from your lordship to make inquiries in  20 Victoria and Smithers, I will, of course, do that.  21 But I certainly didn't read that Notice to Produce to  22 refer to anything other than what was in the  23 possession of the witness.  24 THE COURT:  How long do you think you will be in chief with this  25 witness?  26 MR. GOLDIE:  I expect to be finished today.  27 THE COURT:  Well, I think that one is always reluctant to embark  28 on what might be a futile search, but I suspect we  29 have had lots of them and it seems to me that the  30 course in prudence and caution would be to direct that  31 you do cause inquiries to be made in the appropriate  32 ministries for documents which relate to the  33 activities of the witness and the witnesses to follow.  34 Those are documents in the possession or power or  35 control of the province and if there is to be evidence  36 about those activities, this seems to me those  37 documents may well be relevant, at least relevant to  38 the extent that would justify an order for their  39 production.  40 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  41 THE COURT:  So I think that should be undertaken without delay.  42 MR. GOLDIE:  That is to say, records of royalties paid to the  43 minister?  44 THE COURT:  Well, I am not sure that I would confine it to that.  45 It may be that your friends may specify with more  46 precision what it is that they would want.  47 MR. GOLDIE:  I point out, my lord, that the witness has provided 18501  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR. RUSH  THE  MR.  COURT  RUSH:  THE  MR.  us and we provided my friends with the records of  royalties paid to the ministry.  COURT: I would have thought that was sufficient but I am  sure Mr. Rush doesn't just want another copy of the  same document to be furnished.  GOLDIE:  Well, that's what I would be —  COURT:  But I rather took your friend's point to be that  there would be other documents in the possession of  the ministry.  Have I misunderstood you, Mr. Rush?  No, you haven't misunderstood me.  I should point out  that my submission was with regard to the guide  reports and that's first and foremost.  But I understand those are available, the guide  reports?  I have been provided with a copy that apparently is  kept by the guide outfitter himself or herself.  I  don't know if these are all of the ones that have been  submitted.  I cannot deduce that in -- and there is  clearly a copy that's kept.  In fact I have a copy of  the one that's kept by the hunter in one case.  But in  addition to that, it seems reasonable that if there is  correspondence relating or if there is a file relating  to guide reports, then I would like to see that.  Well, it seems to me that that's proper, Mr. Goldie.  GOLDIE:  All I have to say, with respect, I regard that as  unreasonable.  And I have no idea what that will  entail.  But if there is a file in Victoria which is  "Guide outfitters, Dr. Steciw", then that may turn out  to be not too difficult.  But I have to say that there  is, and I am repeating myself, there is no attempt on  my part to avoid producing documents.  But when I  receive a notice which stated, as this notice is,  which clearly involves documents not in the possession  of the defendant and could not be -- income  statements, that's a purely personal matter -- then I  am entitled to think that the entire document relates  to the witness.  Well, I think that may be a fair construction to put  on the notice, but your friend is now saying that he  would like to see what documents the defendant the  province has, and I think he is entitled to see that.  GOLDIE:  I think I might ask the assistance of the witness  as to what the -- what documents he does file with  Victoria.  COURT:  THE COURT  MR. 18502  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1    EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GOLDIE:   (continued)  2  3 Q   Dr. Steciw, I am going to show you photocopies of a  4 bundle of documents, all headed "Report and  5 declaration of guide outfitter."  Can you tell -- and  6 tell his lordship what the origin of that document is  7 and why you come to file it and who gets it?  8 A   It's required by the game branch for each guide to  9 complete a guide declaration form.  I am not sure at  10 what time that actually started as a mandatory  11 document, the game branch would know, the ministry  12 would know, but this is a document that's filled out,  13 signed by myself and filled out by the hunter, you  14 know, where he maybe killed a certain animal or  15 whether no animals were killed, if it was an  16 unsuccessful hunt.  There are a few copies, I forget  17 how many, one goes to the game branch, one to me and  18 one to the hunter and I think perhaps one to Victoria.  19 Q   Do you file it in Victoria or, as far as you know,  20 that's done?  21 A   No, no.  22 Q   Where do you file?  23 A   I file it with our local game office in Smithers.  24 Q   Do you have any direct correspondence or file any  25 reports with Victoria or is it all done through the  26 local game branch?  27 A   Through the local game branch.  28 Q   The point of my inquiry I think is obvious, if we  29 inquire of the local game branch for copies of all  30 documents relating to your certificate and licence as  31 a game or a guide outfitter, will we be making the  32 inquiry at the right place with respect to everything  33 that you fill out or file with the provincial  34 government?  35 A   I suppose so.  I think perhaps they would be the ones  36 to give a true answer.  37 Q   I appreciate that.  I just want to make sure that with  38 respect to the inquiries we make, we go as directly as  39 possible to the people that you deal with.  4 0 All right.  Are there any other documents which you  41 file with the game branch in Smithers, other than the  42 report and declaration of guide outfitter, which is  43 the document that I have --  44 A  Well, first —  45 Q   The document which I have just shown you?  46 A   No, I don't recall any other documents but I would  47 like to just point out that these are just a portion 18503  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  that -- you see, a lot of times I discard my copy  because it's of no use to me, essentially.  Now,  sometimes I just sort of keep it.  I mean, I just  don't like to have too much paper around.  Essentially  it's useless paper to me, but I did retrieve these  where I put them in the bottom of a drawer, so this  just represents actually a portion.  Right.  There is a reference in my friend's notice to  guide reports submitted to the regional managers  pursuant to section 55 of the Wildlife Act.  Does that  ring a bell?  I suppose so, yes.  There are other pieces of paper than the one that we  have been looking at?  Yes, this is just -- I believe the ones I have  submitted to you are just my copy.  Yes.  But is there another report or other reports  that you file with the game branch in addition to a  report and declaration of guide outfitter?  Actually, no.  All right.  We will make the necessary inquiries at  Smithers.  Unless my friend has any further  observations, my lord, I propose to leave it at that.  All right.  Just that I did make the point, and I perhaps don't  need to repeat it, but it's the question of if there  is any correspondence or any documents related to  these, I also ask for those.  Well, I think that it would be convenient to have  the file sent down and counsel can see what's there.  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  I am assuming that there is -- that  everything that the witness is congnizant of starts at  Smithers.  My lord, yesterday I was dealing with events in  1986, and I just happen to note that the transcript  for yesterday, at page 18497, my question starting at  line two reads as follows:  "All right.  Now, that  completes then the identification of those locations  where in 1989 of you established facilities from which  you..."  That should clearly be 1986.  THE COURT:  I don't think I have my copy yet.  MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Dr. Steciw, yesterday, as I mentioned to his lordship  a minute ago, we had discussed the work that you had  undertaken in 1986 and referred particularly to  localities which you had looked at and localities that  you had improved by the construction of cabins and the  A  Q  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT: 18504  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1 clearing of trails.  2 Now, I wanted to make sure that we had, with  3 respect to that second category, all of the activity,  4 and I wanted to direct your attention to Canyon Creek.  5 Was there any activity there other than the inspection  6 of the lake as a potential point of departure for your  7 activities?  8 A  Well, actually, not at Canyon Creek itself but Canyon  9 Lake, we have built trails from the lake to the  10 mountains north and also a trail on the southern shore  11 of Canyon Lake into one of the valleys.  12 Q   All right.  And those trails radiate, if I may put it  13 that way, from a campsite; is that correct?  14 A   One of them does, the other one is a sort of an  15 unmarked point on the southern shore of the lake.  16 Q   Canyon Lake was marked as number 14, my lord.  17 All right.  I want to go on to 1987 then, and would  18 you describe your activities in 1987?  19 A   1987, I don't believe I had a spring bear season or at  20 least no activity in the spring bear season.  I have  21 proceeded to guide in the fall.  22 Q   All right.  And can you tell his lordship the areas  23 into which you --  24 A   Slamgeesh Lake, Canyon Lake, Kluatantan Lake.  25 Q   And -- keep on going, please.  26 A  And Swan Lake and, I believe -- I believe this lake  27 that I have called, for lack of a better name,  28 Boomerang Lake, Twin Lake and the lake that I have  29 called for lack of another name, Skeena Lake.  30 Q   Those have all been given a number on the map.  31 Now, in respect of going back to 1986, can you tell  32 his lordship what evidence you observed of the  33 presence of others in the areas that you examined?  34 A   I don't believe I met anybody along -- at all in the  35 areas that I have just described.  3 6 Q   And how about 1987?  37 A   Let's see, 1987, no, sir.  38 Q   And did you see any evidence of activity by native  39 Indians or, indeed, others, and by evidence of  40 activity I am distinguishing between seeing people and  41 seeing the evidence of the presence of people?  42 A  Well, I believe it was a trail that is from Stephens  43 Lake going to along Stephens Creek to the Kispiox,  44 there was red ribbons on the trail that somebody tied,  45 and I don't know who it was, but it was a lot of them,  46 like an awful lot of them, and it actually looked so  47 bad I took them off, because it was not necessary, the 18505  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1  2  1  3  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  THE  COURT:  10  MR.  GOLDIE  11  Q  12  A  13  THE  COURT:  14  A  15  16  17  MR.  GOLDIE  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A   '  23  THE  COURT:  24  25  MR.  GRANT:  26  THE  COURT:  27  A  28  MR.  GOLDIE  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  i  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A   '  43  44  45  46  47  Q  trail, as far as I was concerned, was very easily  discernible to me and there was just garbage, some  cans and such on the shore of Stephens Lake which I  removed to make it presentable.  Stephens Lake I believe you identified on the map  yesterday?  I am not sure.  I will have to have a look.  That's  one lake I am not sure I talked about.  I don't think he did.  Would you locate Stephens Lake then?  Okay.  Where is it in words?  It's just below Swan Lake -- pardon me, just south of  Swan Lake.  Yes, here we are.  Yes, this is it right  here.  Swan Lake has been given a number, has it not?  Actually sort of east, yes.  So Stephens Lake would be  16?  No, I think we are up to --  We are over 20.  The last note I have is 17.  Did I miss one?  Skeena  Lake was 17.  22 was the last number.  Boomerang Lake was 20.  I am sorry.  So it's 23, Stephens Lake.  It's 23 that you're up to now.  Yes.  Now, the trail that you described as flagged or  marked, was between what two points again?  It was essentially from Stephens Lake, more or less  along Stephens Creek, and the trail came out in a  little meadow which is right on the Kispiox River.  I see.  And any other signs -- and of course you don't  know who was responsible for the flagging or who left  the garbage there?  Only hearsay, sir.  I don't ask you to guess.  Any other signs of human activity?  Well, that year, and I think this was in '87, 1987,  the boat which I had kept at that end of Stephens Lake  was missing and later on a friend of mine found the  boat, it was hidden somewhere else, so somebody must  have hidden it.  What kind of a boat are you talking about? 18506  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1 A  Aluminum boat.  It was flown in there years and years  2 ago by Beaver.  3 Q   Now, you mentioned in respect of 1987, Kluatantan?  4 A   Kluatantan.  5 Q   Kluatantan.  Have you identified that?  6 A   Kluatantan Lake.  7 Q   Now, when you have located it just describe its  8 location in words, please.  9 A   It's just near Gordon Mountain, the northernmost  10 portion of my guiding area.  This is a new addition.  11 The newest addition.  12 Q   Let us locate it for the purposes of the record, is it  13 north of the Duti River?  14 A   Yes, it is.  15 Q   Would you put a number 24 there, please?  And while  16 you are at it, although I believe you have not  17 mentioned it so far, is there a lake in that general  18 vicinity called Tzahny Lake?  19 A   Yes, there is.  2 0    THE COURT:T-Z —  21 MR. GOLDIE:  T-Z-A-H-N-Y.  22 A   That will be 25.  23 Q   Right.  Now, did you -- you guided parties in the  24 vicinity of Kluatantan Lake?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   In 1987?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   All right.  I now want to complete this by going to  29 1988 and would you describe the activity that you  30 conducted in that year?  31 A   Okay.  I guided in Slamgeesh Lake, in Canyon Lake, in  32 Swan Lake and Stephens Lake, Kluatantan Lake, and, of  33 course, we went down the river, down the Tantan River  34 towards the Kluatantan River and also towards Tzahny  35 Lake and in fact in Tzahny Lake as well.  36 Q   That's the first time you have been in that area?  37 A   Yes, in Tzahny Lake that I have guided.  I have been  38 in there before but I didn't guide.  39 Q   Was there any trail or other construction undertaken  40 in 1988?  41 A   It was -- well, every year there is freshening up of  42 old trails.  43 Q   Yes.  44 A   Yes, I have hired two men to cut trail in Kluatantan  45 Lake.  46 Q   And by that I take it you mean these were new trails?  47 A   New trails. 18507  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   What evidence of human activity -- or let me go back  2 and ask you first, what other people did you see other  3 than the people you were guiding?  4 A   I didn't see anybody else.  5 Q   Any evidence of human activity?  6 A   No, sir.  7 Q   All right.  Dr. Steciw, are you familiar with the  8 trapping season or the general --  9 A   Just the general times.  10 Q   Can you give his lordship an idea in terms of months?  11 A   I believe probably from the end of October to the end  12 of February, some such time.  13 Q   I am going to come back to that in a minute, but in  14 the meantime, or before that, I want to read you some  15 names in reference to localities that you have  16 referred to and ask you if you are aware of the people  17 or have ever met them, and I will be asking you if any  18 of them indicated to you that you were required  19 permission to be in the areas that I will name to you.  20 First, is Kuldo Lake and Creek, now you know where  21 that is?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And the names that I wish to put to you with respect  24 to those, first is Mary Johnson and Stanley Wilson, do  25 you know either of those two people?  26 A  Mary Johnson, I know she is an elderly woman I believe  27 from Hazelton, that I just met about a month ago.  Or  28 a little longer, maybe.  29 Q   And Stanley Wilson, I take it you don't know?  30 A   You know, there are a lot of Wilsons that I take care  31 of medically but it doesn't ring a bell really.  Or  32 some Wilsons I take care of medically.  33 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, the reference in the territorial  34 affidavits in respect of that area, and in respect of  35 the claims of those two as chiefs or hereditary chiefs  36 or chiefs of houses, is Exhibit 485, seconds I.  37 Q   Has Mary Johnson or anybody speaking on her behalf or  38 anybody speaking on behalf of Stanley Wilson, informed  39 you that you required the permission or you required  40 permission to go into the Kuldo Lake/Creek area?  41 A   No.  42 Q   The next reference I have is the Upper Kispiox River  43 and the person's name is Walter Harris, do you know  44 Walter Harris?  45 A   I don't believe so.  46 Q   The territorial affidavit number, my lord, is Exhibit  47 485 -- I am sorry, I said the Upper Kispiox River 1850?  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1 territory, I should have referred to the Stephens Lake  2 territory.  3 A   No.  4 Q   All right.  The reference is to Walter Harris, the  5 territorial affidavit number is Exhibit 485, section  6 0, did anybody ever tell you, either on behalf of  7 Walter Harris or generally, that you required  8 permission to utilize the Stephens Lake territory in  9 your business?  10 A   No.  11 Q   The next reference is to Kuldo Creek, do you know a  12 Mary McKenzie?  13 A   It doesn't ring a bell.  14 Q   The reference, my lord, is Exhibit 661 section A.  15 Did anybody inform you that you required permission  16 to utilize Kuldo Creek in your business?  17 A   No.  18 Q   The next reference is to Chipmunk Creek, the names  19 that I wish to put to you are Alice Jeffrey and Sam  20 Morrison, do you know either of those two?  21 A   I don't believe so.  22 Q   The territorial reference, my lord, both to Chipmunk  23 Creek and to Duti River is Exhibit 599, section A.  24 Did anybody ever tell you that you required  25 permission to utilize those areas in your business?  2 6 A   No.  27 Q   The next names -- well, with respect to Chipmunk Creek  28 again, the general area of Chipmunk Creek, are any of  29 the names, Lloyd Morrison, Elsie Morrison or Simon  30 Morrison known to you?  31 A   I don't believe so.  32 Q   Now Foster Creek, and the name I wish to draw to your  33 attention is that of Neil B. Sterritt, the territorial  34 affidavit is 376 section C, and in addition to Foster  35 Creek I also ask you to keep in mind Barker Creek.  Do  36 you know Mr. Neil B. Sterritt?  37 A   Is this the young Mr. Sterritt or is that his father?  38 Is this the Neil Sterritt that's been involved with  39 this case?  40 Q   Well —  41 A   The manager of the Gitksan or some such thing?  I am  42 not sure who we are talking about.  43 Q   As my friends are fond of saying, there is about four  44 questions there.  Mr. Neil B. Sterritt is the father  45 of Mr. Neil Sterritt?  46 A   Okay.  No, I don't believe I ever met him.  47 Q   Did anybody ever tell you that you needed permission 18509  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1 to operate your business in the Foster Creek or Barker  2 Creek areas?  3 A   No.  4 Q   Slamgeesh Lake and the Slamgeesh River area, the  5 person's name that I ask you to consider is Solomon  6 Jack, do you know Mr. Solomon Jack?  7 A   No, I don't.  8 Q   The territorial affidavit is Exhibit 605, section F.  9 Did anybody ever tell you that you required  10 permission to conduct your operations in the Slamgeesh  11 Lake and Slamgeesh River areas?  12 A   No.  13 Q   Shedin Creek, I am not sure that you have identified  14 that on the map for his lordship but you made  15 reference to it.  Would you confirm for me whether a  16 number has been placed on Shedin Creek?  17 THE COURT:  How do you spell that.  18 MR. GOLDIE:  S-H-E-D-I-N.  19 Q   The next number would be 26.  Just describe in words  20 the general location of Shedin Creek?  21 A   Your lordship, it's -- it runs more or less, roughly  22 speaking, north and south, flows into the Babine River  23 before its confluence with the Skeena as marked here.  24 Q   The territorial affidavit reference is Exhibit 376,  25 section F.  The name I ask you to consider is Wilmer  26 Johnson.  27 A   I don't believe --  2 8    THE COURT:  Wilbur?  29 MR. GOLDIE:  W-I-L-M-E-R, my lord.  30 Q   Has anybody ever informed you that in order to go into  31 the Shedin Creek area you required permission?  32 A   Sir, nobody did, but actually that is not part of my  33 guiding area.  34 Q   I see.  Right.  That's in somebody else's area?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   All right.  Thank you.  37 A   I believe it's Reg Collingwood's area.  38 Q   Mr. Callingwood's?  39 A   Reg Collingwood's.  40 Q   Now, and I believe the same applies to Damsumlo Lake,  41 it's not in your area?  42 A   No, it's the headwaters of the Shedin.  43 Q   Now Canyon Lake, the territorial reference is Exhibit  44 605, section B, the name I ask you to consider is Mr.  45 David Blackwater.  Do you know Mr. Blackwater?  46 A   I have talked to him over the phone.  47 Q   And under what circumstances? 18510  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1  A  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  THE COURT  Well, he was asking me whether he could use my cabin  at Canyon Lake.  Can you tell his lordship approximately when that was?  Oh, gosh, approximately 1987.  All right.  Well, just give his lordship the details  of that, how this telephone call came about and what  was done, if anything, with respect to it?  Yes, he phoned me, it was sometime in the wintertime,  maybe early February, that's just a guess, and he said  that he had a trapline in the Canyon Lake and Canyon  Creek area, and could he use my cabin.  Well, I  thought about it and I said, well, I am pretty private  about my cabins, I really don't even want people if  possible to know where they are and I think I better  say no.  Well, he said, you know, "I would like to  trap" or something to that effect, well, I said that's  fine, you have trapping rights and I have guiding  rights and that is my cabin, built by, you know, my  efforts and I just as soon you build yours.  And that was the end of the --  That was essentially it.  And there was no hostility  or anything, just discussed.  Was there any suggestion, in the course of that  conversation, that you required permission to conduct  your activities in the Slamgeesh Lake area, Canyon  Lake area?  No, not at all.  By Mr. Blackwater or by anybody else?  By nobody.  Now Cutfoot Creek, I believe I may have mentioned  that -- no, I mentioned Foster Creek.  The territorial  affidavit reference is also Exhibit 376, C, and that's  Mr. Neil B. Sterritt, and you have already told us  that you had nobody inform you that you needed  permission with respect to Barker Creek, does that  answer apply to Cutfoot Creek as well?  Yes.  Thank you.  Mosque River, that's in your territory,  isn't it?  Yes.  And you have conducted activities in that area?  Yes.  The territorial reference is Exhibit 376, section B,  the name is Robert Stephens; do you know Mr. Robert  Stephens?  I don't believe so.  :  You don't believe so? 18511  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1 A   I don't believe so.  2 MR. GOLDIE:  3 Q   Has Mr. -- well, has anybody informed you that you  4 required permission to conduct your activities in the  5 Mosque River area?  6 A   No.  7 Q   Are you familiar with a territory known as Fort Creek  8 or an area known as Fort Creek?  9 A   Gosh, that rings a bell but I can't place it at the  10 moment.  11 Q   It's not one where you have cut trails or  12 established --  13 A   I don't believe so.  Not unless I know it as another  14 name.  15 Q   All right.  The Sustut River, you are familiar with  16 that?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   Is that in your territory?  19 A   It just touches, as the map shows, it just literally  20 touches the mouth of the Sustut, my area.  21 Q   Now, the lake that you have named Twin Lake, does that  22 have other names?  23 A  Well, let me explain that to everybody.  That is a  24 lake that I have in my log books referred to in three  25 names:  Once or twice I called it High Lake, because  26 there is no name to it.  In fact, on this map there is  27 no such lake on the map.  And it really doesn't seem  28 to be any formal name so I refer to it as High Lake  29 once or twice in my log books, flying, later on I  30 thought it would be actually maybe appropriate to call  31 it Mosque Lake because it really is the headwaters of  32 the Mosque River, one of the branches of the Mosque  33 River, and then I found out from a commercial pilot, a  34 bush pilot, that the local commercial pilots have a  35 name for that lake and they call it Twin Lake.  So all  36 those three are one and the same lake.  37 Q   And you have identified on the map the location and  38 you have given it a number?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Now with respect to that, has anybody ever informed  41 you that you are required to obtain permission before  42 your use of it?  43 A   No.  44 Q   I am going to name to you two or three other  45 territories or territorial names and ask you if  4 6 anybody has ever informed you that you required  47 permission to use them.  First is Swan Lake, second is 18512  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1 5th Cabin Lake, both of which I believe you have  2 referred to?  3 A   Hm-hmm, yes.  4 Q   Shanalope Creek, have you identified that?  5 A   It's just -- I don't believe so.  I think it's just at  6 the border of my area near where Shanalope I think  7 flows into the Kwinageese River.  I am not familiar  8 with that particular creek.  9 Q   Well, with respect to Swan Lake, and the territorial  10 affidavit reference, my lord, is again Exhibit 485,  11 section 0, and the 5th Cabin Lake and the territorial  12 reference is Exhibit 605, section F.  Did anybody ever  13 inform you that you required permission to make use of  14 those areas?  15 A   No.  16 Q   I want to go back to -- I am sorry, my lord, I  17 inadvertently missed a couple of names.  Kluatantan  18 Lake, which you referred to and identified this  19 morning, the names I ask you to consider are, firstly,  20 Gerald Gunanoot and David Gunanoot, do you know either  21 of those two?  22 A   I don't think so.  The one time for medical purposes I  23 attended some young native man who -- or his baby, and  24 the name Gunanoot, I remember Gunanoot, but I don't  25 know which Gunanoot.  26 Q   With respect to Kluatantan Lake and Tzahny Lake, which  27 you have identified this morning and Duti River, has  28 anybody informed you that you required permission to  29 make use of those areas?  30 A   No.  31 Q   The territorial affidavits, my lord, are Exhibit 613,  32 section B, and Exhibit 599, section A.  That last one  33 is referable only to the Duti River.  34 Now, I want to pick up something that you made  35 reference to earlier in your evidence and you may  36 recall that you described to his lordship an early  37 hunting trip with Mr. Leonard George and Mr. Arthur  38 Tom in the vicinity of Quick and Grouse Mountain?  39 A   Yes.  40 MR. RUSH:  He didn't mention Arthur Tom.  41 MR. GOLDIE:  42 Q   Sorry, was there anybody else with you?  43 A   Yes, there was another native man with me by the name  44 of Arthur Tom.  45 Q   I don't want to mislead you, I am referring to -- I  46 had in mind one particular trip, but I understand from  47 your evidence that there were, in the early times 18513  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1 there were a number of hunting trips with Leonard  2 George?  3 A   Yes, quite a few.  4 Q   Did you have occasion to have contact with any other  5 native persons in relation to these hunting trips?  6 A   Yes, when I was asked about this yesterday, I forgot  7 one person, a fellow who I have known for a long time,  8 Henry Alfred, and I believe it was in 19, probably  9 1967, certainly no later than 1968, but I really would  10 have to say 1967, that we both went on a goat hunting  11 trip on Seton Mountain.  12 Q   That was with Mr. Henry Alfred?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Did Mr. Alfred inform you as to owning that area or,  15 indeed, that some other native person claimed that  16 area as part of his territory?  17 A   No, we went as friends, sort of, hunters.  18 Q   With reference to your hunting with Mr. Leonard  19 George, you mentioned and I referred to Quick and  20 Grouse Mountain, was there any other geographic area  21 that you went to with Mr. Leonard George?  22 A   Yes, we went out towards Owen Lake where he said he  23 had his trapline, we went along Morice River Road, in  24 that general area.  25 Q   Did Mr. Leonard George inform you that that area was  26 owned by a native person or that was part of some  27 territory claimed by a native person?  28 A   No.  He did say that Owen Lake and thereabouts was his  29 trapline or his father's, actually, at that time, his  30 father was alive then, who I knew.  31 Q   Thank you.  Now, you stated that you hunted with Mr.  32 George across private lands or lands owned subject to  33 cattle grazing leases?  34 A   Yes, some of the time.  35 Q   Did you seek permission from those people?  36 A   He did.  37 Q   He informed you that he did or how do you know that?  38 A   Yes, he did.  He said, well, in the one case I  39 remember we hunted Grouse Mountain and we went on and  40 a rancher who was alive then, his name was Paul  41 Anderson, and I said, well, listen, we better ask  42 permission before we go there and he said I already  43 have it, I spoke to them.  In fact we saw Mrs.  44 Anderson at a trailer which they had on that property  45 near some farm buildings and we checked with her again  46 and she told us it was fine.  She just confirmed it.  47 Q   Now, those, as you put it, were at early periods, and 18514  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1 I think you fixed it in the 1960s, '67', 68, in that  2 area?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   What other periods of time or what other incidents in  5 the periods of time involved, have you come in contact  6 with native people with respect to the use of land?  7 A   I am not sure exactly what specifics -- what exactly  8 that means.  9 Q   Let me ask you this:  Has anybody ever asked you for  10 the use of your cabins other than Mr. David  11 Blackwater?  12 A   Oh, yes.  In was about, let's see, probably either  13 very late in 1978 or even very early '79, Neil  14 Sterritt phoned me and said to me, "look, there might  15 be two native people that are interested in trapping  16 in Slamgeesh Lake, could we have your cabin?  Could we  17 borrow your cabin?"  18 Q   He was aware that you had a cabin there?  19 A   Oh, yes.  Yes, he knew.  And I said yes.  20 Q   And how, so far as you are aware from that telephone  21 conversation was he going to or the people on whose  22 behalf he was requesting permission to use your cabin,  23 how they were going to get in there?  24 A  Well, they would fly in.  25 Q   Was that stated in the conversation?  26 A   If not specifically stated, certainly implied.  27 Q   All right.  And was your cabin used?  2 8 A   I am not even sure.  29 Q   All right.  Now, was there anything further in 1978 or  30 1979 relating to Slamgeesh Lake that involved, if not  31 the -- any of the native peoples, those working on  32 behalf of them?  33 A   You know, not as far as I can recall right now.  34 Q   Is the -- were you ever contacted by Mr. Morrell?  35 A   Yes, that was on a different matter.  He stated that  36 he was working for the native council in Hazelton and  37 he asked me if I had -- first of all, he asked about  38 all the salmon information, the spawning salmon that  39 are going up Slamgeesh River, in that country,  40 Slamgeesh Lake, there is a creek going up to west into  41 Damskilgwit or the so-called 5th Cabin Lake, and I  42 gave him all information but then he informed me that  43 they would really want to sort of go in, to fly in, he  44 said, I believe he said to fly in with a Beaver and do  45 a count themselves and I said, well, look, you know,  46 that's going to disturb the hunting, especially of the  47 bear along the river and we discussed the various 18515  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1 possibilities.  I said well, it wouldn't disturb it  2 too much if one of the men that wants to come went  3 with one of my hunters and guides, and the other, say  4 there would be two, I suggested would go in the other  5 direction, perhaps towards 5th Cabin Lake, and count  6 but not to be just wandering around aimlessly, because  7 certainly they would scare game and interfere.  Let's  8 put it this way, to avoid problems, I, you know, he  9 said, okay, why don't you take all the data you can,  10 and I promised him that I would, and we also had, at  11 that time I had working for me a Mr. Pat Martin, who  12 is a consultant biologist who is very, you know,  13 versed in these things and we made -- we had actually  14 quite a bit of time spent in determining and counting  15 the salmon and I gave all this information to Mike  16 Morrell subsequently.  17 Q   Amongst the material produced for us, at the time Mr.  18 Morrell gave evidence in this case, were notes in his  19 handwriting, entitled "Notes on Steciw notes, dated 27  20 of October, '79" and also a document headed "Igor  21 Steciw notes, fall, 1979."  I ask you to look at the  22 second one of those.  I am going to ask you to look at  23 the two page document headed "Igor Steciw notes, fall,  24 1979."  Whose handwriting is that, please?  25 A   This is my handwriting, the letter, and this is my  26 signature.  27 Q   What's the second page?  2 8 A   Same thing, it's my handwriting.  29 Q   And are those the observations that you made as a  30 result of the discussion you had with Mr. Morrell?  31 A   Yes, I believe so.  32 Q   And they run from September 15th to October 8th --  33 well, I say they run, they have those dates on them.  34 Now, I am going to show you a document in Mr.  35 Morrell's handwriting and ask you if you have ever  36 seen that before?  37 A   I believe I saw it when Mr. Mackenzie just gave it to  3 8 me to examine.  39 Q   That is before you came down here to give evidence?  40 A   I think so.  41 Q   All right.  Thank you.  But my point is, Mr. Morrell  42 didn't send this to you?  43 A   I don't remember that at all, no.  44 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, I am going to tender as an exhibit the one  45 page of Mr. Morrell's notes which have already been  46 disclosed, to which is appended the notes that Mr.  47 Steciw has now identified as in his handwriting. 18516  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1 MR. RUSH:  Just a moment.  May I see that, please?  2 MR. GOLDIE:  May that be marked?  3 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.  Exhibit 1084.  4  5 (EXHIBIT 1084:  MORRELL NOTES)  6  7 MR. GOLDIE:  8 Q   From your conversation with Mr. Morrell, did you  9 understand that he had been in there to -- previously,  10 and had conducted any fish counts?  11 A   No, in fact he stated that nobody knew anything  12 essentially about the fish, this is why he wanted us  13 to produce the information.  14 Q   I see.  Now, any other meetings or discussions or  15 contact with native peoples with respect to the area  16 that is within your guiding territory?  17 A   No.  18 Q   Did you ever seek to purchase a trapline?  19 A   I thought about it and I actually phoned a number of  20 people, whose names actually I forget now, and  21 whoever -- you see, I inquired who owned the trapline  22 around Slamgeesh Lake, because I like the area, like  23 to come out in the winter, a very nice place to be,  24 sort of.  I forget who the man was now that I called  25 but I called him and asked him if he would perhaps be  26 interested in selling it and he refused.  27 Q   Right.  But whoever it was, it was, you understood to  28 be the registered holder of a trapline in that area?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And why did you do that, was there -- let me put the  31 question to you another way:  Was there any evidence  32 that that trapline was being utilized?  33 A   That's exactly why I called, there was no sign of any  34 trapping in the area whatsoever so I thought it's not  35 being used at all and I thought maybe whoever owned it  36 might give it to me as a good deal.  37 Q   All right.  Thank you.  Now, we have made reference to  38 a couple of other places, Quick, and I ask you about  39 John Namox, and you know John Namox?  4 0 A   I knew John Namox who was my patient right to the end.  41 He died just a short time ago.  42 Q   The territorial reference is to Exhibit 672, section  43 A.  Did John Namox ever inform you that around Quick  44 or Round Lake, was territory that he claimed or that  45 he regarded as his territory?  4 6 A   No.  47 Q   We have referred to Grouse Mountain, and the 18517  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1 territorial affidavit number is Exhibit 667-A, and you  2 know Mr. Leonard George, did he ever inform you that  3 the Grouse Mountain territory was territory in respect  4 of which he had an interest or his house had an  5 interest?  6 A   No.  7 Q   With respect to Owen Lake, were you ever advised that  8 Mr. Alfred Joseph -- do you know Mr. Alfred Joseph?  9 A   You know, the name just barely rings a bell but I  10 honestly can't put a face on it.  11 Q   Were you informed that Mr. Alfred Joseph claimed that  12 territory or had an interest in it and that you  13 required permission to go on it?  14 A   No.  15 Q   Now, you have referred at some length or you made  16 reference to the use of aircraft, and is it my  17 understanding that you have your log books for 1986  18 on, but --  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   -- but the log books for the aircraft prior to that  21 you did not keep copies and that the log books go with  22 the aircraft?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   All right.  I am going to show you --  2 5    THE COURT:  What do you have, '86 and '87?  26 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, '86, '87, '88 he has, my lord.  27 Q   The first set of pages I am going to show you starts  28 with -- firstly, this form is a Department of  29 Transport form?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And it prescribes the way in which the log of the  32 aircraft use is to be recorded?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   The first set of documents I am going to show you is  35 headed with the written words "100 hour clock, C. of  36 A. done March 28, '86, 9558:05."  Would you tell his  37 lordship what those sheets are?  38 A  Well, those words that you have read -- or the sheets  39 do you mean?  40 Q   I am just using those words to identify.  41 A   Okay.  When a pilot flies you record everything, in  42 other words, you record the day on which you have  43 flown, and where you, say, where you took off from and  44 where you went to, and the time, essentially.  And  45 also the weight or at least an approximation, and this  46 is kept up each day that you fly.  Also, your 100 hour  47 inspections, which are mandatory, are recorded in 18518  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  i  14  A  15  16  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  A  28  29  30  ]  31  Q  32  33  34  MR. RUSH:  35  MR. GOLDIE  36  A  37  THE COURT:  38  A  39  40  41  ]  42  MR. GOLDIE  43  44  45  46  A   '  47  there.  That's essentially what it is.  Right.  Now, the first entry on this page is May 11th,  '86, point of departure, Tyee, is that Lake?  Tyee, yes, lake.  The crew is recorded as yourself and the take-off  time, landing?  Yes.  Lapsed time in the air?  Yes.  And total time since manufacture and so on?  Yes.  And then the next entry of June 8th records some  modification to the aircraft?  Not truly modification.  There was just a check and  perhaps some things were done.  This is not my  writing.  This is the mechanic's, I believe.  All right.  Well, now, dropping down to the entry for  June, the third entry for June 8th, which is Tyee Lake  and then your name and the hours?  Yes.  From the rest of that page, is that your handwriting?  Yes, it is.  All of it.  What I would like you to do is to identify for his  lordship the entries which do not relate to flights  over the guiding area or relate to the nature or to  your business in that area, could you do that for us?  Yes, your lordship.  For that purpose, I have marked  every entry that did not relate to guiding by a red  line to mark it so that everything else that isn't  marked refers to me, myself, flying into my area.  Well, now, nobody else's has those red marks on them,  so can you just read out to us for the first page and  then perhaps we can mark it after that?  He has in front of him a copy with red marks on it?  :  Yes.  I have made these red marks personally.  And the red marks relate to --  To the times when I flew the aircraft that essentially  had nothing to do with my guiding activity.  So,  therefore, the balance, the entries that are not  marked in red, refer to the guiding activity.  :  All right.  Just so that we get an idea of what  you're talking about, tell us on the first page which  are entries that you have identified as not related to  your guiding business?  Well, June 8th and there is another June 8th -- of  course May 11th, June 8th, June 8th, and then going 18519  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  down the page, everything else relates to guiding  until we come to July 3rd.  Then July 7th, 7th --  Q   July 3rd.  Yes?  A July 7th, again on the 7th, and then July 9th. Those  are the ones which do not reflect my flying as having  anything to do with guiding per se.  Q   Now, I think the geographic descriptions are clear  enough, but on July the 5th, you got "Slamgeesh L.",  and that's Slamgeesh Lake?  July 5th, Tyee Lake to Slamgeesh Lake.  The next one, Slamgeesh Lake to High Like?  High Lake, yes.  That's one of the three names that you gave to that  little lake?  Yes.  Then High Lake to Slamgeesh?  Yes.  And then Slamgeesh back to Tyee.  So that day, just so  that we have this by way of an illustration, that day  took you from a start off on 8:45 in the morning and  return to Tyee Lake at 4:20 in the afternoon?  Yes, sir.  And you were at Slamgeesh Lake, High Lake back to  Slamgeesh Lake and then back to Tyee Lake?  Yes.  Would it take 1.4 hours to fly from Slamgeesh to  Tyee lake? Or does 1.4, does that mean 1.4 hours?  It means that, yes, my lord.  That's what it means.  Would it take that long?  With this plane, it did.  Now, let me explain  something.  A lot of the times when I flew it was for  observation purposes, I just didn't fly the very  straight line, I flew in places I was interested in  looking and exploring, like I mentioned before, and  that's the reason for the discrepancy in time.  And  also the weather factor, sometimes I had to fly around  storms and whatever I had to do.  MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Before I go on to the next page my lord, could I have  this marked as an exhibit?  That would be the document  that has been placed before your lordship.  THE REGISTRAR: 1085, my lord.  (EXHIBIT 1085:  PHOTOCOPY OF AIRCRAFT LOG)  MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Maybe the best way of doing this is to go over to the  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  THE COURT  A  THE COURT  A 18520  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1 next page and give us the dates of the flights that do  2 not relate to your business?  3 A   July 20th and July 20th, July 26th and July 26, July  4 29th, July 29th, August 14th, August 14th, August  5 15th, August --  6 THE COURT:  What is that?  Is that August 17th there?  7 MR. GOLDIE:  It looks like 17 but it —  8 THE COURT:  There is two July 2 9s, and is the next one August  9 14th?  10 A   Yes,  And the other one was 14 too.  11 MR. GOLDIE:  12 Q   Those record flights to -- from Kamloops and back, by  13 way of Williams Lake; is that right?  14 A   Let me just study that.  At which date are we  15 beginning?  16 THE COURT:  July 26.  17 MR. GOLDIE:  July 26 you started off?  18 A   Yes, that's exactly it.  Hm-hmm.  19 Q   All right.  Would you continue please?  20 A  August the 15th, August 18th, well, I am not sure what  21 I meant, it looks like 11 but obviously can't be.  22 It's probably a very flat 18 there, the next one,  23 August 18th.  24 Q   That is Kamloops to Williams Lake?  25 A   Yes.  August 18th.  August 18th.  26 Q   Yes.  27 A  And all the rest reflect -- all the balance of the  28 entries reflect flying that had to do with guiding.  29 Q   Just to identify place names so that this can be  30 referred to later on, the entry for August 28th, I can  31 make out Tyee lake and there is, is the destination  32 Canyon Lake?  33 A  Where is this again?  34 Q   August 28th.  35 A   Yes, that's right.  36 Q   And the preceding day, August 27th?  37 A   Skeena Lake to Tyee Lake.  You see, sometimes, you  38 know, this is made out in a hurry so I sometimes  39 abbreviated and I guess my writing isn't that clear to  40 a lot of people.  41 Q   Nobody is going to criticize you for your writing.  42 Just that we want to be able to refer to it when  43 you're not here.  44 THE COURT:  Wish I could say that.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  46 Q   All right.  Would you go over to the next page,  47 please? 18521  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1 A  All the entries on this page, beginning August 30th  2 and ending September 11th, are pertinent to guiding.  3 Q   That is with the exception of September 6th, which is  4 the 100 hour check; is that right?  5 A  Well, if you noticed, you see, I am not sure who did  6 that, but if you notice that 100 hour check there is  7 no flight time, in other words the plane -- this must  8 have been done in Smithers.  9 Q   But I mean —  10 A   September 6th, yes, I see what you mean.  11 Q   The entry is not directly related to your flights  12 over --  13 A   To flying at all, no.  14 Q   All right.  Thank you.  15 THE COURT:  Could we take the morning adjournment, Mr. Goldie?  16 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, my lord.  17  18 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED FOLLOWING RECESS)  19  20  21  22  23 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  24 a true and accurate transcript of the  25 proceedings herein to the best of my  26 skill and ability.  27  28  29  30  31  32 Wilf Roy  33 Official Reporter  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 18522  I. Steciw (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT)  2 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant?  4 MR. GRANT:  Before my friend, Mr. Goldie, proceeds, I just had  5 brought to my attention that Exhibit 1081, that is the  6 affidavit of Mr. Mike Morrell, is referred to in the  7 transcript at page 18439.  8 THE COURT:  Yes.  9 MR. GRANT:  The affidavit of Stuart Rush with amendments, that  10 should be the affidavit of Mike Morrell re: fishing  11 sites.  12 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  Mr. Goldie?  13 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you, my lord.  My lord, Madam Registrar has  14 made a very sensible suggestion, and that is that the  15 photocopy of the 1986 and '87 logs, which the witness  16 has marked as indicating a use outside the guiding  17 area, would be marked as the exhibit and perhaps at  18 noon he might do the same with respect to the  19 subsequent logs and then I could leave it to the -- my  20 friends to make the same notations and that might save  21 us some time.  22 THE COURT:  Thank you.  23 MR. GOLDIE:  24 Q   Before I leave, however, this 1986 set of photocopy of  25 the logs for that year, I'd like you to turn to the  26 third page in.  It begins with the August 30th, 1986  27 flight record.  And down the third entry from the  28 bottom, September 10th, '86 and also September 9th,  29 '86, is that Boom Lake, that is B-double-o-m-L, that's  30 Boomerang?  31 A   Yes.  I was just going to explain that.  That is what  32 I have referred to as Boomerang Lake.  I think I  33 remember on a few occasions I called that Kwinageese  34 Lake, but that was again only because I tried to pin a  35 name on it and there wasn't one.  I never landed in  36 Kwinageese Lake, the one that is on our maps  37 labelled -- you know, labelled Kwinageese Lake.  38 Q   It's this one that you call Boomerang Lake?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   All right.  And the next entry, September 11th, '86,  41 Tyhee Lake to Twin Lake, that's, of course, your --  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   -- triple name friend?  44 A   That's right.  45 Q   All right.  And then the top of the next page -- I  46 think that's reasonably clear.  The first entry is  47 Swan Lake? 18523  I. Steciw (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 A  All the entries on that page from September the 11th  2 to September 18th refer to guiding only.  All the next  3 page, September 19th to October -- I guess it's the  4 3rd --  5 Q   They're all guiding?  6 A  All guiding.  7 Q   Yes?  8 A  And from October the 4th to October the 13th, that is  9 guiding only.  Now, on November the 2nd, that refers  10 to nonguiding, and also the last entry, January 29th.  11 Q   Yes.  The next page is -- starts January, '87?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And I take it that the aircraft -- this particular  14 aircraft was not used by you from October 13th, '86 to  15 January 30th -- or maybe even February 14th?  16 A  Actually February 2nd.  17 Q   February 2nd, right.  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Just pausing there, can you give his lordship an idea  20 of the annual usage of your aircraft?  And by annual  21 usage if you can express it in terms of hours.  22 Firstly, with respect to the aircraft that you had  23 before we come to the one that -- from which this log  24 is taken.  25 A   From -- this log is taken approximately -- I think one  26 year was 209 hours.  That was 1986, something to that  27 effect, the total usage.  And I think 1987 it was a  28 bit more.  It was 260 something odd hours.  That's the  29 total usage.  30 THE COURT:  60 or 16?  31 THE WITNESS:  260, 2-6-0, or thereabouts.  32 MR. GOLDIE:  33 Q   That's the usage for this aircraft?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Is that comparable?  Is that a figure that can be  36 applied to the aircraft you had preceding this  37 aircraft?  38 A   No.  The aircraft that I had preceding this -- in  39 other words, the Cessna 185 that I had before this, I  40 would say 100 hours plus, just a bit over 100 hours  41 probably total yearly --  42 Q   Can you -- can you translate that into the trips to  43 and from your guiding area?  How many trips would that  44 represent approximately?  45 A   Okay.  Well, the 185 from Tyhee Lake, if the weather  4 6 is good and we don't have to go around, you know,  47 seeking out valleys, what have you, flying more or 18524  I. Steciw (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 less the usual routes, it takes about an hour with a  2 185.  3 THE COURT:  To Slamgeesh?  4 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  About an hour with — that was the question,  5 wasn't it?  6 MR. GOLDIE:  7 Q   Yes.  Now, does -- can you translate that into an  8 approximation of the number of round trips that you  9 would make in the year?  10 A  Well, it would -- just very vaguely, approximately --  11 like 100 hours would be approximately 50 trips  12 therefore or thereabouts.  13 Q   I don't need to ask you that question because we have  14 the actual log of this aircraft.  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   When I say I don't need to ask you that question, I  17 mean I don't need to ask you that question with  18 respect to the aircraft for which we have the logs.  19 The -- there is -- now, going over several pages  20 following the certificate of airworthiness, it picks  21 up at May the 18th, '87.  And there are, I understand,  22 a number of entries on that page which are not  23 connected with your -- with your guiding?  24 A   Yes.  Quite a few.  25 Q   The — for instance, May the 25th, '87 Tyhee Lake.  26 And what is -- what's the destination there?  27 A  May 25th Tyhee Lake to Fort Babine and Fort Babine  28 back to Tyhee Lake.  The one after that, that  29 probably -- you know, in all -- Fort Babine is on  30 Babine Lake and this is where I go on a monthly basis  31 more or less to see -- to take care of medically the  32 natives at Fort Babine.  33 Q   You say monthly.  Are you the -- are you the medical  34 officer at that band?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   All right.  Now, going on down the page there's one  37 other name that I wish to ask you about.  And that is  38 for July the 1st, Tyhee Lake, Coles.  Is that Coles  39 Lake?  40 A   2nd July.  41 MR. GOLDIE:  July 1st, '87.  42 THE COURT:  It's bracketed with a star, second star from the  43 bottom.  44 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  That's Coles Lake, that's right.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  46 Q   Where is -- is that within your guiding area?  47 A   No.  No, it isn't.  It's south of Smithers, 18525  I. Steciw (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 essentially just outside the boundaries of Tweedsmuir  2 Park.  3 Q   All right.  Perhaps you would be good enough to locate  4 that on the -- on the map.  5 A   I'm just going to find it, my lord.  Coles Lake.  It's  6 just essentially south of Troitsa Lake.  7 Q   How do you spell that last name?  8 A   T-r-o-i-t-s-a Lake.  9 Q   Yes?  10 A  And Coles Lake is just south of it.  11 Q   Those two lakes then are in the, what, southeast  12 corner of the area marked on that map as the claims  13 area?  14 A  As the claims area?  15 Q   The solid black line which is shown as outlining the  16 boundaries of the lis pendens area.  Maybe Mr.  17 MacKenzie --  18 A   Southwest.  19 Q   Southwest.  Thank you.  All right.  Now, would you put  20 a number on that, please, Coles Lake itself?  21 A  What is the number?  22 Q   It would be 27.  23 A   I think it may be 28.  24 Q   28.  25 A   I'm putting down number 28.  26 Q   All right.  Thank you.  Now, if you could return to  27 the witness box.  28 Could you tell me with respect to Coles Lake,  29 since it is clearly outside your guiding area, what  30 was your purpose in going there?  31 A   Just personal fishing pleasure trip.  And I've done  32 actually quite a few of those with my previous  33 aircraft.  34 Q   It's not the first time you've been in that lake?  35 A   No.  I know the lake quite well.  36 Q   Did you see any signs of human activity there?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Would you describe those, please?  39 A   There were other fishermen there.  Some I remember  40 flew in with a Malle aircraft to be exact.  We used to  41 fish at the west end of the lake.  See, the lake is  42 like two parts to it.  There's, like, two lakes joined  43 by an isthmus essentially, by a narrow bank of water,  44 and I was in both parts.  45 Q   You saw fishermen there?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Were they native? 18526  I. Steciw (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 A   No.  No.  There was some non-native person from, I  2 think, Burns Lake or somewhere.  3 Q   Can you give me an approximation of the number of  4 times you've been in that lake?  5 A   Let's see.  Oh, the number of times total?  6 Q   Yes.  7 A   Oh, at least six times.  8 Q   What is the means of access?  You went in there by  9 aircraft?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Can you get into that lake otherwise than by aircraft?  12 A   Not any road.  I noticed kind of like trails just  13 north of the lake.  By trails I mean something that  14 could be made by motorcycle or what have you, you  15 know, or all terrain vehicle but not into the lake.  16 Q   All right.  As I say, I'm not going to ask you to  17 identify each of the nonguiding uses for the rest of  18 the pages.  That can be done by reference to the -- to  19 the exhibit itself.  But I do want to ask you a little  20 more about some of the place names on the next page.  21 Beginning with July 27th, '87, the entry for -- the  22 second entry for August 21st, '87, what is the -- what  23 is the --  24 A   Oh, that's Tchesinkut Lake, and I have that marked as  25 non -- as a use that is non -- not related to guiding.  2 6 Q   All right.  27 A  And that was probably a flight to see a mechanic who  28 was in Tchesinkut Lake, John Hodge.  29 Q   August 25th, what is the destination recorded in the  30 first entry?  31 A   Okay.  Tyhee Lake to Tantan Lake.  That's my --  32 actually a mistake.  It's what I called sometimes  33 Tantan Lake.  It was a mistake.  It was Kluatantan.  34 Q   So if we see Tantan, we can take it as Kluatantan?  35 A   That's right.  36 Q   And that's within your guiding territory?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Thank you.  August the 30th, Tyhee Lake, (BW), is that  39 one that is part of your guiding activity?  40 A   Just a second.  I remember I saw that and for some  41 reason I thought -- yes, it was.  Somehow I thought  42 what that meant was that -- that I returned.  Oh, BW,  43 bad weather.  I mean I have it marked in there.  44 There's lots that I haven't got marked that were still  45 bad weather so I had to return.  46 Q   That explains the fact that there is no destination  47 for that flight? 18527  I. Steciw (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 A   That's right.  2 Q   All right.  Thank you.  Over on the next page,  3 September 17th, Lake Else, that would not be a guiding  4 flight, would it?  5 A   No.  It's marked actually as such, but it wasn't.  6 Q   Yes.  7 A   It -- the reason I went to Lake Else was either to  8 have -- yes.  In this case I was going to say either  9 to have mechanical work or a personal visit to my  10 mechanic.  He's passed away since.  11 Q   I have trouble making out the next entry, September  12 18th.  13 A   Oh, September 18th.  14 Q   Tyhee Lake?  15 A   Tyhee Lake.  Mosque Lake, I believe that is, and I  16 could hardly make it out myself and it's my  17 handwriting.  18 Q   That's fine.  Thank you.  And then over the page  19 just -- are there any flights on that page which are  20 not related to your --  21 A   I don't believe so.  I went through this before.  22 Q   And that takes us through September.  The next page is  23 October and then we get to November.  The last  24 entry -- or the last flight in October, '87 is Tyhee  25 Lake to Williams Lake and Williams Lake to Kamloops.  26 Then there are entries for November and then it jumps  27 to January and February.  Now, with respect to your  28 flying activities in -- in 1986 and '87, the months  29 which you do not appear to fly -- well, perhaps you  30 can tell his lordship.  What are the months that you  31 do not fly in relation to your guiding activities?  32 A  Well, the months I don't fly due to my guiding  33 activities -- well, it breaks sort of into two parts.  34 I suppose one is times when it's just dangerous, and  35 that would be at freeze up and just after.  Let me  36 explain that.  Even in late October or any time also  37 in October, certainly November, ice begins to form in  38 many of these lakes.  So you can't land on floats.  39 And, of course, the ice is extremely thin so you can't  40 land on skis.  So most of the times a person has to  41 wait just about until January, and in a very mild year  42 you're kind of wondering whether you have enough ice  43 in January even to hold up an aircraft.  And sometimes  44 I don't fly much in June and July, as much as, for  45 example, September, October, because there's no  4 6 guiding at that time for me.  47 Q   Now, I think you explained to his lordship that in 1852?  I. Steciw (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 1986 you engaged in a rather extensive reconnaissance?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And that had to do with your guiding business though,  4 did it not?  5 A   Yes, of course.  6 Q   Now, the -- I do not see entries here for the early  7 spring, that is to say -- well, there appear to be  8 some entries in March and some in April but not very  9 many.  What -- what are the flying conditions in those  10 months?  11 A  Well, you see, once the lakes -- and this depends on  12 the weather -- begin to unthaw and poor conditions --  13 again, you can hit slush as you're landing the  14 aircraft.  You know, you can get into an accident that  15 way.  And also once conditions get really warm, then,  16 of course, you're again afraid to break through the  17 ice or even break through the sort of -- usually  18 there's a few layers of ice on the lakes.  Sometimes  19 you can have a thin top layer covered with some snow  20 and you may break through that.  So that's the danger  21 of it.  The best time to fly is actually February,  22 maybe first part of -- winter flying.  23 Q   Yes.  24 A   February, probably in the first part -- first part of  25 March.  26 Q   All right.  Now, I'm going to come to that, but before  27 I do, I want to have you identify the -- I want to  28 have you identify the next set of log entries.  And  29 I'm showing you a -- a stapled number of pages from  30 what appears to be the -- a logbook, the first entry  31 of which for purposes of identification is June 11,  32 '88, KA local.  Now, does that carry on from the last  33 date in Exhibit 1085, which is March the 31st, '88,  34 but are we now talking about a different aircraft?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   All right.  And the documents that I have just shown  37 you, is that for your new aircraft or your present  38 aircraft up to the current -- reasonably current  39 period?  40 A   Yes, it is.  It's a 185 Cessna.  41 Q   And the same thing with respect to the earlier one.  42 The entries with respect to destination and equipment  43 and things like that are for the main in your  44 handwriting?  45 A   Yes.  46 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, I ask that that bundle of logbook entries  47 be marked as an exhibit. 18529  I. Steciw (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 MR. RUSH:  What's being marked here now?  2 MR. GOLDIE:  I think it's 19 pages from the logbook of Mr. — or  3 Dr. Steciw's presently owned aircraft.  4 MR. RUSH:  I think there's 18.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  18.  6 THE COURT:  Is this aircraft designation KA local?  7 THE WITNESS:  No.  Charlie, golf — that's CGWVF, whiskey,  8 Victor, foxtrot.  9 THE COURT:  CG.  10 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  It's WVF.  11 THE COURT:  What does KA local mean, top line?  12 THE WITNESS:  Oh, this was — this was actually filled in by  13 Dave Barren, who was doing -- he's a pilot, but he's  14 in Kamloops, who is -- this is probably Kamloops, KA  15 local flight, because he did a lot of work on it.  16 THE COURT:  KA is Kamloops?  17 THE WITNESS:  I take it this is what it means.  18 MR. GOLDIE:  19 Q   That's not an entry in your handwriting?  20 A   No.  No, that is not.  Could I mention something?  21 Q   Yes.  22 A   For purposes of clarification, this aircraft I have in  23 partnership with a man called Myron Smaha and some of  24 the entries in here are his.  There are very few.  And  25 this refers to the previous question which was put,  26 whether these are all my entries.  They're not.  They  27 by and large are, but some of them are his.  2 8 THE COURT:  They're indicated.  29 MR. GOLDIE:  30 Q   Yes.  I should have said -- I should have been more  31 precise -- that the entries with respect to which you  32 are named as the crew are in your handwriting, are  33 they?  34 A   Yes.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  It is that bundle of documents which  36 I'm tendering as an exhibit, my lord.  When I say  37 that, I mean 18 pages extracted from the logbook of  38 Dr. Steciw's aircraft which he has identified as being  39 owned by himself and in partnership with Mr. Smaha.  40 THE COURT:  Up to July the 6th, '89?  41 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  42 THE COURT:  All right.  43 THE REGISTRAR:  1086, my lord.  44 (EXHIBIT 1086:  Log - Steciw, June 11, 1988 to July 6,  45 1989)  46 MR. GOLDIE:  47 Q   I'm going to ask the witness to do the same with 18530  I. Steciw (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 respect to this exhibit as he did with the previous  2 one, namely to mark in red -- and this can be done  3 over the lunch hour -- to mark in red the nonguiding  4 flights.  Would that be a --  5 A   That's fine.  I'll do that.  6 Q   All right.  Now, taking the aircraft usage that is  7 represented in these two exhibits, namely 1085 and  8 1086, you have explained to his lordship that there  9 are certain times of the year in respect of which it  10 is undesirable and perhaps even dangerous to fly.  If  11 I understood your evidence, you have identified that  12 freeze up time sometime starting perhaps towards the  13 end of October --  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   -- and extending into November.  And the -- the period  16 of thaw in the spring which -- whatever time that is,  17 but sometime --  18 A   Sometime in March.  19 Q   March.  20 A   Probably late March.  21 Q   And extending into April?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   Yes.  All right.  24 A   Depending on the year.  25 Q   Am I correct then in concluding that with the  26 exceptions of those two periods of time, that you have  27 had occasion to fly over your guiding area in every  28 other period of time of the year, sometimes with  29 greater intensity, of course, but that your period of  30 surveillance is virtually year round with the  31 exception of the freeze up and thaw times?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   All right.  I want to address your attention to your  34 winter flights.  And I think you told his lordship  35 yesterday that for your winter flights you usually  36 substitute a ski arrangement on the aircraft; is that  37 right?  38 A   Yes.  On the 185, the previous one, and this one, on a  39 PD 12 it was a permanent ski.  You took the wheels  40 off, you put it on skis and you flew out of the lake.  41 You had to land on the lake and fly into the lake.  42 Q   I see.  But with the present configuration you can  43 land at an ordinary airstrip and then you can land on  44 a lake?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   What would -- what would be the result of flying in  47 the winter so far as observation is concerned?  What 18531  I. Steciw (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 can you -- would you describe for his lordship what  2 you can see in the winter that you don't see in the  3 s umme r ?  4 A  Well, it's extremely easy to see tracks of animals and  5 all kinds of tracks, much more, of course, than in  6 summertime or any time that the snow is not on the  7 ground.  8 Q   And are you able to distinguish, for instance, let's  9 say, snow-shoe tracks from the tracks of animals?  10 A   Oh, yes.  11 Q   The -- before asking you to answer the next question,  12 I would like you to indicate on the map with a line  13 your usual routes.  You've described them, but I'd  14 like you to place it on the map, your usual routes.  15 A   Okay.  16 Q   From Tyhee Lake to Chipmunk, Slamgeesh Canyon.  17 A   Okay.  There are primarily three usual routes.  And  18 you want these on dotted lines?  19 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  I'd like it a red line, please.  20 THE COURT:  Red solid line or broken line?  21 MR. GOLDIE:  22 Q   Well, let's make it a red solid line for the first  23 one.  24 A   Tyhee Lake.  25 Q   You're starting out at Tyhee Lake?  26 A   Tyhee Lake.  27 Q   And what is the destination that you're going to go?  28 A   Say to Slamgeesh, because that seems to be the  29 centre -- essentially the hub of my activities, so to  30 say.  31 Q   Okay.  32 A   I would fly along the river east.  33 THE COURT:  You're making a dotted line?  34 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Or a dashed line.  East of the river.  35 THE COURT:  The Skeena River?  36 THE WITNESS:  No.  The Bulkley.  37 THE COURT:  Bulkley River.  38 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Okay.  Just staying — just sort of —  39 usually I don't gain enough altitude, at least not on  40 the floats, to clear the blunt mountain, so I just  41 stay on the -- stay west of the mountains and then I  42 go through a pass most of the time called Natlan Pass,  43 I guess you can call it, and then I go more or less  44 cutting -- making a straight line as much as possible,  45 depending on the elevations and clouds and so forth,  46 to Babine River and going north approximately this way  47 over Damsumlo Lake, which is here, and then I go down 18532  I. Steciw (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14    ]  MR. RUSH  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  47  A  into the Skeena just usually where the Sicintine River  runs into the Skeena here.  And then you see here I  have a choice.  Depending on the weather, I can go  either to -- I drop into the Skeena.  I fly over the  Skeena.  Usually I can go -- there are usually a  few -- for purposes of emergency a few good straight  places on the Skeena River itself in bad weather,  which is between Canyon Lake and where the Slamgeesh  River comes out, and then I either go to Canyon  Lake -- let's say if I go to Slamgeesh, it will be  sort of this direction right here.  That's the -- you  know, that's the preferred route.  I have also  taken --  Well, now before you go on, you say that's your  preferred route?  Yes.  Would you put somewhere along that route which you  have marked in red pencil an interrupted line or a  large A?  Somewhere along that route?  Somewhere along that route so we know which one is  your preferred route.  Okay.  Now, the variations.  Okay.  Sometimes I would go -- you see, once I have  cleared -- once I'm at this point --  What is this point?  I'm sorry.  This point almost over Babine River,  thereabouts, I can see which way the weather is, you  see.  If that looks particularly bad, then I would go  through -- up Shelagyote River and via Sicintine Lake  and essentially out here into the Skeena.  There's a  little kidney-shaped lake, again with no name, which  we can refer to as Kidney Lake, I suppose, and then  I'm very close to Slamgeesh.  And if the weather is  socked in there, I can always go here along the  Skeena, and, of course, see if I can land in one of  the other camps.  That route, if I followed you correctly, takes you to  the east of your preferred route?  Yes.  A little bit.  All right.  Perhaps you might mark that with a  slightly different method, either a solid line or a  long line and a dot and a long line starting out from  the point that you would diverge from the Babine.  Okay.  See, I just have to place Sicintine Lake.  Here 18533  I. Steciw (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 we are, Sicintine Lake.  There's a little bit of  2 variation here.  Say suddenly gets good weather.  For  3 example, I can go right over these flat mountains and  4 in there but generally speaking in this direction.  5 THE COURT:  That's a solid line, is it?  6 THE WITNESS:  Solid line with a dot in between.  7 MR. GOLDIE:  8 Q   All right.  And could you mark that with a B?  9 A   Okay.  10 Q   Now, you said you had basically three routes?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And I take it, doctor, that from your evidence that in  13 respect of all of these three there are local  14 variations depending on the weather and --  15 A   Oh, yes, absolutely.  16 Q   All right.  Now, what about the third one?  17 A   The third one would be essentially -- and this could  18 start from any point.  I see that it might be closed  19 off, you see, from Tyhee Lake to anyone.  It's  20 essentially along -- let's see -- along -- along the  21 Nilkitkwa River along -- Nilkitkwa River up through  22 Motase Lake and down through Squingula.  And again I'm  23 here.  I have a choice, either to go down river and  24 land somewhere here or go up here to this part.  25 Q   Well, now, that route again is further east at least  26 up to the last point you described?  27 A   Yes, it is.  28 Q   Would you take it -- draw a solid line then -- I take  29 it we haven't used up solid lines yet -- a solid line  30 from Tyhee Lake to the point where it joins -- where  31 you say you have a choice?  32 A  Well, I suppose it might -- it could -- you know,  33 depending again on all kinds of weather conditions, it  34 might overlap the previous route up to a point or, you  35 know, up to and including Babine River.  Probably  36 that's the usual cut off.  37 Q   All right.  If Babine River is the place where you  38 usually make a choice, start from the Babine River.  39 A   I -- I should really sort of end it here because here  40 it's -- it depends which way I'm going.  I am at the  41 confluence of the Squingula River and Skeena.  42 Q   That's -- that's the place where you -- as you said a  43 few minutes ago, you had a choice?  44 A   You decide what to do.  45 Q   Would you put a C beside that variation?  46 Now, at least one of those variations takes you  47 over territory other than your own territory; is that 18534  I. Steciw (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 correct?  2 A   Yes.  Could I mention something?  There is also  3 another route that sometimes I take, and that's right  4 along the Bulkley River to Hazelton essentially and up  5 the Skeena.  6 Q   Following the Skeena all the way?  7 A  All the way.  8 Q   Yes.  All right.  Well, you don't need to mark that.  9 That would take you entirely within your territory, at  10 least from --  11 A   Yes.  From Suskwa River and Babine on, yes.  12 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  Now, with respect to having described  13 to his lordship the variations and the -- and the  14 routes that you -- used to get to and from the  15 Slamgeesh or Chipmunk or Canyon, would you describe to  16 his lordship --  17 THE COURT:  Go ahead, Mr. Goldie.  18 MR. GOLDIE:  19 Q   -- your personal observations with respect to native  20 peoples hunting or fishing or using the natural  21 resources in the areas that you have hunted in, guided  22 in or overflown?  23 A  Well, really I haven't observed any at all.  24 Q   And that is any evidence of native peoples hunting,  25 fishing or using the natural resources in these areas  26 that you have hunted, guided in or overflown?  27 A   No, I haven't.  28 Q   All right.  Thank you.  Now, with respect to winter  29 flying, I forgot to ask you if it's possible to  30 identify human tracks, if -- if -- other than  31 snow-shoe tracks.  32 A  Well, not from the air, I don't think, because, you  33 know, when a human sinks into three, four feet of  34 snow, it's extremely hard to tell that from a moose.  35 So I would say -- I would say basically no.  36 MR. GOLDIE:  But anybody who's in that area -- and you answer  37 from your own experience, please.  38 MR. RUSH:  What area?  39 MR. GOLDIE:  40 Q   The areas overflown by the witness during his winter  41 flights -- and I should say areas -- would be  42 virtually required either to use snow-shoes or to be  43 using a skiddoo or some other similar --  44 A   Oh, yes.  45 Q   Did you see any tracks of skiddoos?  46 A   No, never.  47 Q   I want to ask you a few further questions with respect 18535  I. Steciw (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 to the means of -- present means of transportation.  2 And I'm now referring to your guiding area.  You have  3 testified that you use your -- rely upon your plane.  4 How are your customers brought in?  Do you fly them  5 in?  6 A   No.  By law I can't do that.  They're flown in by a  7 commercial aircraft service called Central Mountain  8 Air —  9 Q   Right.  10 A   -- into my area and they fly out of my area to  11 Smithers in the same manner.  12 Q   Is there any means of transportation using the Skeena  13 River?  I'm talking now about river boats.  14 A   In -- no.  I don't believe.  Skeena River is  15 extremely, extremely broken up by rocks and rapids and  16 so forth at various places.  I think it's impossible  17 for anyone to get, like, say, from Hazelton, oh, up  18 to -- up the Slamgeesh, for example.  19 Q   Yes.  All right.  Now, what about roads?  And again  20 let us start with Hazelton.  There are --  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   We've had evidence here, of course, of roads which  23 extend to Kispiox and beyond and you've referred to  24 forest access roads.  For all practical purposes,  25 including the use of four-wheel drive vehicles, how  26 far up the Skeena can one go using roads or forest  27 access roads?  28 A   Essentially to the confluence of the Babine River and  29 the Skeena.  30 Q   And beyond that it's --  31 A   One of the roads goes up the mountain a little bit --  32 let's see -- on the -- on the west side, but it runs  33 out on a tree line.  That's where it ends.  But this  34 is the general statement, yes.  35 Q   Do you know where the -- where Kuldo is?  36 A   Kuldo Lake?  37 Q   No, not Kuldo Lake, the old Indian reserve site of  3 8 Kuldo.  39 A   Yes, I do.  40 Q   Is there a road up to there?  41 A   Not that I could see at all.  42 Q   What about trails?  43 A   I was never on the ground, on the site of Kuldo.  44 Q   Yes.  How about trails beyond the -- the end of the  45 roads, which you have placed for all practical  46 purposes at -- at the confluence of the Babine and  47 Skeena Rivers? 18536  I. Steciw (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 A  Well, as we know, there's the historical telegraph --  2 telegraph -- telegraph trail.  3 Q   Yes.  4 A   But I haven't explored it that low down because  5 it's -- I don't think it's practical.  6 Q   From your own personal knowledge and on the ground can  7 you say anything about the use of trails?  Take  8 Slamgeesh Lake, for instance.  You've testified that  9 you have cut trails in that area.  Now, did any of  10 those trails that you refreshed, to use your word, or  11 cut utilize any part of the old telegraph trail?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Beyond the point that you stopped, what was the  14 condition of that trail?  15 A   Unrecognizable, especially where the alder grow up.  16 You couldn't crawl through there hardly, so to say.  17 Q   You say you couldn't crawl through there.  You mean by  18 that that is impassable?  19 A   It is an alder thicket, you know, and I suppose if  20 someone just winds themselves around the little alder  21 trees and so forth, you can sort of make some headway,  22 but it's not something that is used for travel by  23 anybody that I know of.  24 Q   Is it -- assuming that a person on foot might get  25 through that to some extent, is it passable for  26 horses?  27 A   No.  28 Q   Are we talking now of the continuation of the  29 telegraph trail south of the area -- south of the  30 point at which you stopped your own trail-making  31 activities?  32 A   Yes.  South of Slamgeesh Lake and actually sort of  33 westerly towards Damskilgwit Lake that applies as  34 well.  35 Q   The old telegraph trail is in the same condition; is  36 that correct?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And you have testified earlier that you have seen no  39 evidence of any use of that trail other than the --  40 the blaze which you saw.  The blaze you saw on the  41 tree was not on the telegraph trail, was it?  42 A   Oh, no.  It was far off.  43 Q   I asked you about a river boat on the Skeena and you  44 stated you had a boat on Stevens Lake?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   Do you have boats elsewhere?  47 A   Yes.  I've transported this boat from Stevens Lake 18537  I. Steciw (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 since once it was hidden on me, so it's at another  2 lake close by, which for confidential reasons I'd  3 rather not name.  But I have -- oh, yes.  I have boats  4 in most of my camps that I use quite frequently.  I  5 have -- let's see -- aluminium boat and two canoes at  6 Slamgeesh.  I have a canoe at Canyon Lake.  I have a  7 canoe at Kluatantan Lake.  I have a canoe at the  8 confluence of Foster creek and Skeena and I have a big  9 river boat that is hidden in the north, you know, for  10 obvious reasons, so people don't just pick it up and  11 use it, in the northern portion of the Skeena; let's  12 just put it that way.  13 Q   You say a big river boat?  14 A   20 foot long, five foot wide.  15 Q   How did that get in there?  16 A   By a DC 3, which I believe I mentioned that I --  17 Q   Yes?  18 A   -- took in the spring of 1978.  19 Q   All right.  Now, that -- but that -- and is that a  20 powered boat?  21 A   Oh, okay.  Yes.  It's a powered boat.  What I leave  22 behind is just a hull, the boat.  What I take out each  23 time, of course I use, is the outboard engine that  24 goes with it, and at first it was an 85-horsepower  25 Mercury with a jet attachment and now it's a  26 70-horsepower Mercury with a jet attachment.  27 Q   And you use that on the Skeena?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Yes?  30 A   On the Skeena.  31 Q   That's — that's fairly far north.  That's beyond  32 Slamgeesh, I take it?  33 A   Oh, yes.  Yes.  34 Q   All right.  Do I take it then that the -- virtually  35 the only means of access into that area is aircraft?  36 A   Yes.  Unless one takes some sort of vehicle on the  37 railroad that can go on the tracks or coming from the  38 north on the railroad right of way.  39 Q   Oh, yes.  In that respect I asked you about evidence  40 of activity by native peoples of -- in respect of  41 hunting, fishing and use of natural resources.  You  42 have testified that you have seen non-native peoples  43 in this area.  You referred to a party of hunters at  44 the Chipmunk Creek and the Skeena?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And the party of engineers or surveyors on the B.C.  47 Rail speeder at the end of steel at Chipmunk Creek? 1853?  I. Steciw (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 A   Yes.  That's right.  2 Q   Have you any other comments to make about evidence of  3 activity by -- in human activity, that is, in your  4 guiding area?  5 A   I think -- let's see.  I have met a man who flew in  6 once in the wintertime, once or twice, actually, to  7 Slamgeesh.  I think -- let's see.  Bernie -- I think  8 his name is Bernie Desjardin, and he actually was  9 using my cabin and I just told him, you know, first of  10 all, to ask if he plans to use it and, secondly, I  11 like to have it as kind of my own retreat, so please  12 ask and let's not sort of, you know, use other  13 people's property.  So he stopped coming.  That was  14 long time ago.  15 MR. GOLDIE:  I want to refer you to the -- to the map which is  16 presently marked or number reserved for is 55C.  My  17 lord, I ask that that be marked as Exhibit 55C without  18 any requirement to keep it for identification.  19 MR. RUSH:  Subject to what this man has proved.  I think the  20 witness has proved certain areas.  21 THE COURT:  For the purposes of the markings this witness has  22 made.  23 (EXHIBIT 55C:  Map 13 - Boundary of lis pendens area)  24 MR. GOLDIE:  25 Q   Yes.  With respect to Exhibit 55C there are a number  26 of names indicating -- I assume, but you can confirm  27 this -- indicating the holders of other licences or  28 certificates?  2 9 A   Um-hum.  30 Q   And you made reference to area 22, McTague, who is the  31 man to whom you sold your interest in that guide  32 outfitting and you've referred to Mr. Collingwood?  33 A   Um-hum.  34 Q   I want you to tell his lordship the degree of  35 activities that you know from your personal knowledge  36 of the guide outfitters that are found -- whose names  37 are found on that map or if you know of successors or  38 others interested, the names of those people.  39 A   Okay.  Okay.  I maybe should begin -- okay.  40 MR. RUSH:  I think the witness should also state what the source  41 of his knowledge is so we can be clear how he  42 understands it.  43 THE WITNESS:  My lord, this is just personal knowledge by  44 talking to these people and -- and actually obtaining  45 from these outfitters information.  That's all were my  46 sources.  47 MR. GOLDIE: 18539  I. Steciw (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   There is an association, is there not, of which --  2 A   Yes.  I was -- let's see -- I guess two years the  3 president of what is now called the Northwest Guides  4 Association, years ago were called the Skeena Guides  5 Association.  So I suppose this is what you are  6 referring to.  7 Q   Yes.  And now in respect of each name, just state  8 whether you know them personally and the basis of your  9 information about any comment that you make on the  10 activity.  11 A   Okay.  12 MR. RUSH:  Well, I'm going to object to any of the hearsay.  It  13 sounds like all this was based on what others have  14 told him about the area.  15 MR. GOLDIE:  Except for personal observations of the activity.  16 THE COURT:  First the last question was unobjectionable, do you  17 know these people, who are they and do you know them.  18 MR. GOLDIE:  I want you to go through each of those one by one  19 and say whether you know them personally and if you  20 do, I'll ask you to tell his lordship what you know of  21 the activity that person carries on and if my friend  22 wishes more particular information about the source of  23 your knowledge, whether it is what you were told by  24 that person, what you have had occasion to observe or  25 any other source of information --  26 MR. GRANT:  Well, I think it's my friend's obligation to lead  27 that from the witness.  It seems to me that I've made  28 the objection, and I think it's well founded on the  29 basis of what the witness has said, and I think my  30 friend should elicit that.  31 MR. GOLDIE:  32 Q   Well, we'll see as we go along.  First let's start  33 with one that you have mentioned already, and that's  34 Mr. Collingwood.  35 A   Yes.  Okay.  36 Q   Is he active, to your knowledge?  37 A   Okay.  To my knowledge, yes, he is.  38 Q   And what is the basis of your knowledge?  39 A  Well, he tells me which personally.  Also, when I took  40 this route flying through Sicintine Lake, on a number  41 of occasions, which is in his guiding area, which is  42 right over here, I have personally seen one of his  43 camps as having, you know, fresh activity there, smoke  44 from the cabin and so forth.  And once, which was,  45 let's see, last year, I think I even went and flew in  46 there and flew in a canoe for him as a favour and  47 there was something to the tune of five, six people 18540  I. Steciw (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1 there preparing the cabin for the hunt.  2 MR. GOLDIE:  From your knowledge of his equipment and activity,  3 is his outfit larger, smaller or about the same size  4 as yours in terms of the number of people that guided  5 and the equipment?  6 MR. RUSH:  Again, my lord, I ask my friend to -- what did he  7 see?  If my friend is saying that he flew in there and  8 there were five people and he's making a comparison on  9 the basis of that, then I don't have a problem with  10 it.  I do have a problem if Mr. Collingwood is -- he's  11 saying something that Mr. Collingwood may have told  12 him or others may have told him about Collingwood.  13 THE COURT:  There is a problem here, isn't there?  14 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, there is, but in my submission, my lord, it's  15 not much of a problem because the witness has had an  16 opportunity of personal observation.  There is --  17 THE COURT:  Well, he has told us about that, but I don't know  18 how he could compare the size of Mr. Collingwood's  19 operation with his own without more than stopping and  20 seeing five or six people preparing for a hunt.  21 MR. GOLDIE:  That's true.  But he — if he has information about  22 other equipment or if he's observed other equipment --  23 THE COURT:  Yes.  If he can — if he can say those sort of  24 things, we can certainly hear it.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  26 Q   Let us see if that's the only time that you've had an  27 opportunity of being in Mr. Collingwood's guiding area  28 or of being aware of the nature of equipment used  29 or -- for instance, to your personal knowledge from  30 observation either from your aircraft or otherwise,  31 does he use horses?  32 A   In that area from my personal observation, no, but --  33 could I point out something for the benefit of the  34 Court for clarification?  There are two Collingwoods  35 here:  Mr. Reg Collingwood, who this area belongs, and  36 Ray Collingwood, who guides in the Spatsizi.  Their  37 operation is essentially run as one.  So whereas -- to  38 the best of my knowledge, there is a lot of horses,  39 something like 30 or so in the Spatsizi guiding area.  40 I certainly haven't seen one and to the best of my  41 knowledge are not being used in that guiding area.  42 Q   That being the one of Mr. Reg Collingwood?  43 A   Reg Collingwood, yes.  44 Q   All right.  Now, have you had any other opportunity of  45 observing the way in which he conducts his business?  46 Have you seen cabins within the area that are -- his  47 area?  Have you identified cabins? 18541  I. Steciw (For Province)  In chief by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  A  Q  A  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  A   Yes.  There's one in Sicintine Lake and there's one in  Motase Lake.  Yes.  That's all I have seen.  Yes.  All right.  And have you observed any trails  that have been cut in that area?  I couldn't tell from the air if they were cut.  There  could be possibly game trails.  Yes.  Now, do you have any other information that you  can call to mind based upon observation which would  enable you to compare the degree of activity in  respect of Mr. Collingwood's operation and your own?  Yes.  I have an idea.  The two, Reg Collingwood and  Ray Collingwood, their combined operations, I would  say, are substantially more than I am, but --  Is this a useful opinion, my lord, without --  I don't know.  I think I'll take lunch to consider  it.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until  two o'clock .  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings transcribed to the best  of my skill and ability.  Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 18542  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 2 O'CLOCK P.M.)  2  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie?  4 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you, my lord,  5 Q   Dr. Steciw, before lunch we were discussing the other  6 guide outfitters of whom you have knowledge in the  7 claims area, and you had referred to Mr. Ray  8 Collingwood and to Reg Collingwood?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And my recollection is that your route, alternate  11 route C, takes you over Demsumlo Lake, and I think you  12 testified to that this morning?  13 A   Yes, one of the routes I have drawn.  Would you like  14 me to check?  15 Q   Yes, I think it's A, so Mr. Mackenzie tells me.  16 The -- are you able to estimate how many times you  17 may have flown over that particular area?  When I say  18 that particular area, I am talking about the Demsumlo  19 Lake area in the Upper Shedin Creek drainage?  20 A   Yes, many times.  It's hard, really, for me to just  21 give an exact figure but I would say, 50, 60 times  22 anyway, to the best of my belief.  23 Q   Is the -- have you ever seen any trapping activity in  24 that area?  25 A   No.  26 Q   Is there any aspect of that area that would lead you  27 to conclude that if there had been trapping activity  28 that you would have seen it, seen signs of it?  29 A   Let's put it -- let's put it this way:  Whenever there  30 is snow on the ground, anyone or any animal, that is,  31 you know, utilizing the area, would be quite easily to  32 spot the tracks.  If we judge activity in terms of  33 signs, tracks, what I can see from the air then, no,  34 it's a unique area in that I haven't seen any animal  35 tracks there, ever, to my recollection.  There is  36 nothing there so to say, game-wise, that I have  37 observed at any time of year.  38 Q   Is the terrain such that you are able to be reasonably  39 confident in the conclusions that you reached with  40 respect to your observations?  41 A   Yes, actually, yes, this is what we call a park-like.  42 In other words, this is not just bush, this is sort of  43 open meadows and then clumps of bush and meadows and  44 so forth.  So, if anything like tracks, you know, any  45 tracks would be around of any type, this would be  46 actually visible in the open places.  And there is a  47 lot of open places.  There are a lot of open places. 18543  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   All right.  Now, I want to go back to Exhibit 55-C and  2 I want you to first tell me with respect to the names  3 that are on there whether you know them personally;  4 and, secondly, whether you are able to tell his  5 lordship from your own observations, as opposed to  6 what somebody might tell you, whether there is guiding  7 activity in those areas?  Could you do that?  8 A   Yes, I will do that.  9 Q   And just give us the name of the person you are going  10 to speak of first and then the number that is on the  11 map and then to your knowledge if some other person is  12 the -- holds the guiding certificate for that area,  13 tell us that also.  14 A   Okay.  In the case of area labelled here 32, Ken  15 Belford, I know Ken personally.  What I have seen of  16 his activities, personally observed, he has rather  17 large facilities at Blackwater Lake, and I have seen  18 active, actually -- well, I have seen people there, I  19 have seen some canoes, I believe, boats, and I have  20 actually landed there, come to think of it, once, and  21 that was sometime in the early summer, June, July,  22 last year.  And he was there and his wife was there.  23 THE COURT:  Show me where it is, please?  24 A   Yes, Blackwater Lake, just west of Slamgeesh.  There  25 is an alternate name, this is Slamgeesh here and  26 Wilanasik Lake and Blackwater, what we were call  27 Blackwater is Damdochax, it's an alternate name.  And  28 his camp is on the northeastern side of the building.  29 There are two sets of building, incidentally.  30 MR. GOLDIE:  31 Q   Perhaps you might put a number for that so we can  32 identify it for the record and put it approximately --  33 well, put it on the lake.  Put it that way.  Number  34 29.  35 A   So I have observed those facilities and I have seen  36 him and his wife and they were very early on in the  37 summer, they weren't guiding then yet but they were  38 there.  And during the season from time to time when I  39 flew from time to time I saw, you know, I would see a  40 canoe perhaps or some such thing.  41 Q   All right.  42 A   Excuse me, there are also some tent frames which  43 are -- it's not a cabin, it's essentially a frame over  44 which you put a big tent over, somewhere down  45 Damdochax Creek, going towards the Nass.  But I am not  46 sure of the location.  However, it's right beside  47 Damdochax Creek or river, whatever you want to call 18544  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1 it.  2 Q   If you are finished with Mr. Belford --  3 A   I am finished with Ken.  That's what I observed  4 personally.   Karl Oysmueller, I actually observed  5 quite large facilities, including corrals, right,  6 well, the main sort of large cabin appears from the  7 air like a lodge, actually, almost, and a few smaller  8 cabins right on Kluyaz Lake --  9 THE COURT:  How do you spell that?  10 A   K-L-U-Y-A-Z, as I take it, but that's —  11 MR. GOLDIE:  12 Q   Can you locate it on the map?  13 A   Yes.  And would you like me to put --  14 Q   Would you put a 30 there, please?  15 Q   And that you say is Mr. Oysmueller's camp?  16 A   Yes.  And a corral he has there too, a little bit  17 further removed in the lodge.  18 THE COURT:  Where is it again?  19 A   Kluyaz Lake.  Right here, I think.  30.  20 THE COURT:  Where is Slamgeesh?  21 A   Slamgeesh is right here.  22 THE COURT:  Almost at the northern external boundary?  23 A   Yes, it's not in my guiding, of course.  24 THE COURT:  This is your boundary?  25 A   Yes.  And, let's see, in 1987, there was really quite  26 a bit of aircraft activity, airplanes, you know,  27 flying in that direction.  I take it they landed at  28 Kluyaz, the noises indicated it but I assume -- that's  29 an assumption.  30 MR. GOLDIE:  31 Q   You observed these aircraft and they were going in  32 that direction I take it?  33  34  35  36 Q   What number is Mr. Fleming?  37 A  Mr. Fleming is number 30.  Well, first of all, he was  38 utilizing a cabin, which it reflects his past activity  39 before he sold me this little part, which is at the  40 junction of Kluatantan River and Skeena River, there  41 is a cabin there.  He has camps, he has many camps,  42 actually.  The ones I have seen were Kitchener Lake, a  43 long time ago I have seen that camp, a very well  44 developed camp, and Thutade Lake.  45 Q   Yes.  46 A  Would you like me to assign any numbers?  47 Q   If you can locate those two camps, I believe they may  A  Yes.  Q  A  Go ahead?  Ron Fleming.  Q  What number  is  A  Mr. Fleming  is 18545  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1 be outside the claims area but locate them anyway and  2 give them the numbers --  3 A   It's so long, I don't --  4 Q   You don't feel comfortable --  5 A   It's so long ago, I landed there, but I wasn't the  6 pilot, I was in a Beaver, we came ther, we had lunch  7 but I don't remember exactly where the Kitchener Lake,  8 to tell you the truth.  9 Q   All right.  So don't mark it then.  But what about  10 Thutade?  11 A   Thutade, yes, it's approximately, I already, well,  12 it's on the lake itself, the cabin, approximately  13 where I have indicated the circle.  14 Q   That's number 30?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   31?  17 A   31.  I am sorry.  Yes.  18 Q   All right.  19 A  And he has boats there and so forth.  20 Q   Dr. Steciw, you say approximately, is your use of that  21 word because of the scale of this map or your --  22 A   No, it's because I was there only a few times and it  23 was some time ago and I have seen his facility but  24 right now to put an exact dot on that lake where it  25 was, I would rather not, for purposes of accuracy.  26 Q   If you have nothing further with respect to Mr.  27 Fleming, that's fine.  28 A   No.  I guess this area number 29, that has Mr. D.  29 Robertson on it, I don't believe he holds that any  30 more, it's Maurice Polard, I believe.  31 MR. RUSH:  Objection, my lord.  32 MR. GOLDIE:  33 Q   Well, I asked him to state whether the map was correct  34 to his knowledge.  And the source of his knowledge is  35 immaterial.  36 MR. RUSH:  Well, does that make the map correct or incorrect?  37 MR. GOLDIE:  No, the map is correct as of October, 1984.  38 THE COURT:  But he is saying he understands that that person no  39 longer owns the territory?  40 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  It is part of the body of knowledge.  41 MR. RUSH:  As long as we understand it to be hearsay and it  42 doesn't prove the map or prove who owns it.  43 THE COURT:  It puts a question against that notation on the map,  44 is really all it does.  45 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  I mean, this person, this witness cannot prove  46 who owned it then or who owns it now.  47 THE COURT:  He can prove who used to operate it. 18546  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1  MR.  RUSH:  2  3  THE  COURT  4  5  MR.  RUSH:  6  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  MR.  GOLDI  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  30  Q  31  A  32  THE  COURT  33  34  A  35  MR.  GOLDI  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  THE  COURT  47  A  He can prove what he saw as an activity at that  place.  :  And possibly, depending on what he saw, who operates  it now.  Yes, I suppose he may be able to say there was a Mr.  Polard who was there at the time he was there and that  might lead to an inference that he operates it.  The only camp that I have personal knowledge of is  again a camp on what I think people refer to, again  there is no name on the map, is White Lake, and there  is a cabin right on there and I have seen airplanes  parked there, I have seen people on the ground  walking, from the air, I think I have seen a boat  there.  And I -- that was actually, specifically to  tell you the truth, 1986 and '87.  Particularly 1986.  And to your knowledge, what was the name of the person  that you thought was --  Maurice Polard.  And to your knowledge, is he the operator of that  facility?  Yes, to my knowledge, yes.  Would it be 32?  Yes, please.  Now, the next -- well, let's see, okay, the area  that's labelled number 20, Ben Ridennoure, I know him  personally, and I have seen their facilities at  McDonald Lake, number of cabins, boats, so forth.  That's the only facility I have been on the ground and  I have seen.  Are you able to locate that?  Yes.  :  Is that the McDonald Lake we have heard so much  about just behind Hudson's Bay Mountain?  Yes, yes.  And that's number 32?  H:   33, I think.  The next one is Mr. Mclntyre, I know him -- I know  him, I know who he is, and the only facility I have  seen, and I have seen boats there, in fact could have  even seen people in the boats, but I know he has got a  cabin, that's on Moose Skin Johnny Lake.  I have to  find the lake.  Sorry, I am looking at Bartlett.  I  will just have to find the right -- I went from Morice  Lake, where I saw his premises, the only time is when  I went from Coles Lake, where I was fishing, back and  forth, we used to fly actually through here.  :  Where is Smithers?  It should be -- 18547  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1  THE  COURT:  2  A  3  THE  COURT:  4  A  5  6  7  MR.  GOLDIE  8  Q  9  A  10  11  Q  12  13  14  MR.  RUSH:  15  THE  COURT:  16  MR.  GOLDIE  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  22  Q  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  40  41  A   '  42  43  44  45  46  47  Here or here?  Right here.  All right.  Thank you.  You see, this is a confusing thing because I can't see  the lakes in blue.  Right there, Moose Skin Johnny  Lake.  Would you put a 34 to identify that, please?  Although I know some of the other people, I haven't  personally observed any of their operations.  All right.  Thank you.  In respect of those that you  have referred to, is it your evidence that these  facilities are operated as guide outfitter businesses?  Isn't that a leading question, my lord?  Yes, I think it is.  What use, to your knowledge, is made of the facilities  that you have just identified with the -- and the  evidence that you have just given?  To the best of my belief, it's primarily for purposes  of guide outfitting, yes.  Now, Dr. Steciw, you testified in respect of the  licence, the guide licence, which I believe is called  a guide outfitter licence, and you -- yes, thank you.  Yours was -- has been marked as Exhibit 1083, I refer  you to the last page, which refers to assigned quotas.  Is that something which -- would you explain to his  lordship what that is?  Okay.  The game branch assigns quotas, in other words,  limitations, to some guide outfitters, areas or  portions of the areas, so that there is no overharvest  of certain animals.  It's a conservation management  tool.  Now, is that a -- that is set annually, at least to  your -- in your case?  It's set, if not annually, then reviewed annually, or  every two or three years, what have you, in the past.  Now, apart from what you find in your licence, do you  set limits on the animals that are hunted in your  guide outfitting area and, if so, why?  Well, I do, actually set limits, because I think I  have a very good idea of, you know, what, you know,  the animal population, what sort of hunting pressure  it can stand and I see it from year to year.  And in  fact, I have been more conservative on, say, mountain  goats than suggested by the game branch, just as an  example.  So this is sort of a criteria that I use. 1854?  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  THE  COURT  6  7  8  MR.  FREY:  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  GRANT  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  THE  COURT  21  22  MR.  GRANT  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  THE  COURT  32  33  MR.  GRANT  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  FREY:  36  37  38  39  40  41  THE  COURT  42  43  44  45  46  47  So your own criteria?  My own gut feeling, for lack of a better word.  All right.  Thank you.  Those are my questions, my  lord.  :  All right.  We haven't had an opportunity or this  experience before, but I suppose Mr. Frey should go  next?  My lord, I have no questions of this witness.  :  You don't need to go next then.  :  My lord, I -- just to speak to this, I -- of course  my colleague will be cross-examining, but I wish to  raise with your lordship that on this issue that we  take the position that the federal Crown should not be  allowed to cross-examine.  This is, of course, a  discretionary matter in your lordship's hands, but  there is good reason, we say, in this case, when you  examine the pleadings as well as the conduct of the  two defendants, for you to exercise your discretion  not to allow the federal Crown to cross-examine.  :  Have your friends been made aware of this suggestion  you are making now?  :  We have not brought it to the attention of our  friends because we did not know whether or not, for  example, the federal Crown was going to elect to  cross-examine.  They did not advise us as to their  intent either.  So we didn't raise it.   I am prepared  to deal with it now, in light of the circumstances  that Mr. Frey and the federal Crown is not  cross-examining this witness, I am prepared to argue  it later.  :  There are authorities that deal with this question.  I haven't looked at them lately.  : And I have those.  :  I don't imagine you are ready to argue the matter?  I haven't heard about it until this moment and  because I am not not cross-examining this witness, it  would really be an argument in a vacuum.  I think it  would be more appropriate to deal with it when there  is a necessity when we wish to cross-examine a  witness.  :  I think we will take your observations as notice,  Mr. Grant and perhaps we can argue the matter when the  time comes for Mr. Frey or some of his colleagues find  themselves persuaded that they wish to cross-examine a  witness called by the province.  You have the  authorities and you will be ready for that.  If  counsel want to agree on a time, a fixed time, that we 18549  I. Steciw (For Province)  In Chief by Mr. Goldie  1 can have the argument, I would be glad to do that.  2 MR. GRANT:  That may be more appropriate otherwise we would  3 interrupt if we did it in the normal course, we would  4 interrupt the witness.  5 THE COURT:  I will be glad to hear the argument any time the  6 counsel wish.  7 MR. FREY:  Maybe I could, just to clarify, is it the plaintiffs'  8 position that the federal Crown is prohibited from  9 cross-examination on all topics?  10 MR. GRANT:  There is, raised by the provincial defendant, a very  11 narrow issue between the provincial and federal  12 defendant, which relates to if the plaintiffs have the  13 rights which they claim, and I will not go to the  14 quote, although I will in argument, that the  15 responsibility, if any, is on the federal Crown.  If  16 the provincial defendant calls a witness to deal  17 specifically with that issue, there may well be, of  18 course, appropriate where that is the only issue  19 between the parties.  When one looks at the federal  20 pleadings, there is no express joinder of that issue.  21 I would say other than that very narrow issue, which  22 is between the federal Crown and the provincial Crown,  23 that the federal Crown is not entitled to cross-  24 examine.  And I also wish to be clear on this, that  25 this -- we are not -- this is not unique to the  26 federal Crown, it is the plaintiffs' position it is  27 exactly the same for the province, that they and the  28 federal Crown have taken an identical position  29 vis-a-vis the plaintiffs, and the provincial Crown is  30 not entitled to cross-examine the federal Crown's  31 witnesses when we come to that.  32 MR. GOLDIE:  That's already been dealt with, my lord.  The  33 commission witnesses called by the federal government  34 have been cross-examined by the province.  35 MR. GRANT:  Objection -- of course the rules provide, it hasn't  36 been dealt with at all, because the rules provide that  37 conduct of a commission outside of court, objections  38 do not have to be made at the time of the commission  39 evidence itself, the objections can be made, and must  40 be made, at the time the he have is tendered and we  41 will be objecting to that cross-examination of Boyes  42 going in as evidence.  Of course, that's part of the  43 federal Crown's case and that evidence hasn't been put  44 before your lordship.  45 THE COURT:  Well, everyone has notice and I will be glad to hear  46 what you have to say when the times comes.  47 All right, Mr. Rush, cross-examination? 18550  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  CROSS-EX,  2  3  MR. RUSH  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  You told us, Dr. Steciw, you moved to Smithers in  1967?  Yes.  And before you moved to Smithers, where did you live?  Well, I interned in Saskatoon at City Hospital.  I  lived there for a year.  And before that?  Before that, I was at medical school and before that I  was at McMaster, graduating with biology and  chemistry.  Where were you born?  I was born in Poland of Ukrainian parentage.  When did you migrate to Canada?  1948.  To where?  To Dauphin, Manitoba.  To where?  Dauphin, whatever the pronunciation is.  And your family is of Ukrainian descent?  Yes.  And did you migrate with your parents?  Yes.  Now, before moving to Smithers in 1967, I take it that  you did not live in Smithers?  No, never.  And was '67 the first time you had the opportunity of  being in Smithers?  Yes.  And you chose Smithers as a place to practise  medicine?  Yes.  A place to live, essentially.  Practise  medicine, of course, is just the work I do.  And you have been practising medicine in Smithers  since '67?  Yes.  And is the main body of your income derived from your  practise of medicine?  Actually, since 1986, let's say, just to be really --  this is, you know, within $5,000 or so, since you're  asking, in 1986, that I believed that my actual  guiding gross outdid my medicine by a few thousand.  What about your net?  Probably a bit less, because my overhead is more in  guiding than in medicine.  And the next year was very 18551  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 similar and last year my gross in guiding was probably  2 about $10,000 below that of —  3 Q   It's been declining since '86?  4 A   Not declining since '86.  '88 was a lower year.  Part  5 of it was due to the fact that the American dollar  6 dropped and I charge in American dollars, you see.  7 Q   Would it be fair to say that '86 was your high year in  8 guiding?  9 A   Probably, yes.  10 Q   And since that time it's been gradually, as I think  11 you indicated, decreasing?  12 A   No.  13 Q   It hasn't?  14 A   I didn't indicate that, really.  I think you  15 misunderstood me, perhaps.  16 Q   Probably.  17 A   This is within, you know, a few thousand dollars, and  18 this is the gross and that depends on the money  19 exchange.  I charge in U.S. dollars so it depends  20 really a lot on the money exchange with your actual  21 Canadian dollars are at the end of that.  22 Q   So you're telling us that the guiding activity that  23 you have been involved in is an activity that is  24 income-deriving for you?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   You told us at the beginning of your testimony  27 yesterday that guiding was a hobby?  28 A   It was an interest, yes.  Can I enlarge upon that?  29 Q   Yes, yes, I just want --  30 MR. GOLDIE:  Let him answer, please.  31 MR. RUSH:  Well, I hadn't put the question.  32 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I think you did.  33 MR. RUSH:  34 Q   Let me ask you this, Dr. Steciw:  My understanding is,  35 from what told us yesterday, that the way you view  36 guiding is as a hobby, am I right about that?  37 MR. GOLDIE:  That's misstating the evidence, my lord.  38 THE COURT:  Well, he is asking the witness if that misstates the  39 evidence.  40 A   Only in part.  Small part, perhaps.  Well, in part.  41 MR. RUSH:  42 Q   Well, what do you mean by in part?  43 A  Well, it means, you know, guiding to me, and not only  44 guiding, but actually being out of doors, you know, to  45 climb the mountains and to fish and to hunt and to  46 explore, is a lifestyle.  That's why I came to B. C,  47 that's what I really sought moving west instead of 18552  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 being in Toronto, you know, in some more lucrative  2 medical practise, perhaps.  And guiding is part of  3 that adventure, if you will.  4 Q   You described it as sort of a hobby yesterday?  5 A  At first, that's when I purchased my first area, if  6 you recall, I said, it began as that.  7 Q   I see.  And now it's a money-making proposition?  8 A   Yes, I believe so.  9 Q   And it's a money-making proposition that today you  10 want to sell?  11 A   Yes, for a reason.  12 Q   You have advertised your guiding area for sale for two  13 years?  14 A   I really don't think I advertised it.  I could have  15 but I don't recall ever.  I mentioned to a few people  16 that I would like to sell it.  17 Q   You didn't put in the Guidelines brochure of the guide  18 outfitters?  19 A   I don't think so.  I don't recall at all that I did.  20 Q   But the fact is that you now want to sell this income-  21 making operation?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   Now, it's fair to say, is it not, Dr. Steciw, that  24 when you came to Smithers in 1967 you had no knowledge  25 about the geographic area, the trails or potential  26 areas for hunting?  27 A   In -- when I came to Smithers, yes, yes.  28 Q   You had to be introduced to that?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And is it not the case that one of the people who  31 introduced you to that was Leonard George?  32 A   Yes, but not within my present or even past, for that  33 matter, guiding area.  34 Q   I understand where you said this has gone on, but my  35 question to you is that Leonard George guided you to  36 places where you could hunt?  37 A  We both went as friends.  I don't think it was guided  38 in that sense.  39 Q   Well, you didn't know where to go?  40 A   But at the same time there is a difference between --  41 you see, depends in what sense you use guiding.  If  42 one hunter says to another, let's go, I know a good  43 place, the loose interpretation of that is that he is  44 guiding but it's not in the sense of guide outfitting  45 what I have done with the clients.  46 Q   I appreciate it.  In your case you charge to guide  47 someone to an area where there is game? 18553  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26    ]  MR. GOLD  27  A  28  29    ]  MR. RUSH  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Yes.  In the case of Leonard George he did it for nothing?  Yes, of course, and we went as friends.  But the activity was the same, wasn't it?  Yes.  He showed you where to go?  That's right.  And you went, you said, with Arthur Tom?  Yes.  Actually, to make it very specific, he sort of  went with us, as if it was.  Did you know that Arthur Tom is related to Leonard  George?  I didn't, no.  You knew that they were both Indian people?  Of course.  And you told us that one of the places that you went  was a place where you could shoot a grizzly?  Yes.  And you did?  Yes, I did, hm-hmm.  Now, did you know, at the time that you were hunting  with Leonard George, did you know if he spoke another  language?  Yes, actually, I think.  You understood --  3:  He hasn't finished his answer.  You see, I knew he knew at least in part another  language.  Do you know that Arthur Tom spoke another language?  No, I didn't.  Now, did you know how Leonard George and Arthur Tom  were related?  No, as I mentioned, I didn't even know they were  related.  And, Dr. Steciw, did you know that they were from the  same house group?  Do you know what a house is?  You have mentioned that word here, I have heard it in  the last year or two, but I really don't know, no.  It's a kin group, if I can describe it that way.  Okay.  Did you know that they were from the same house or kin  group or the same clan?  No.  You had heard the word clan before?  Absolutely, yes.  And did you know that they were related as a family? 18554  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 A   No.  2 Q   In a family way?  3 A   No.  4 Q   Now, did you ever hear of Leonard George's chief's  5 name?  6 A   No, I didn't, but I knew that his father was a chief.  7 Q   Did you know his father's name?  8 A   I did.  I took care of him medically but I forget his  9 first name now.  10 Q   His father being Thomas?  11 A   That probably was true.  That was a long time ago.  12 Q   And what about Arthur Tom, did you ever hear of a  13 chief's name for Arthur Tom?  14 A   No.  15 Q   Did you ever hear of the name Smogelgem?  16 A   If I did it escapes me.  It escapes me.  17 Q   If you recall that there was a language which, for the  18 lack of a better description, we will call the  19 Wet'suwet'en language, did you understand it as the  20 Wet'suwet'en language by the way?  21 A  At this time, I didn't ever hear the word  22 Wet'suwet'en.  I heard the word Carrier Indians,  23 referred to generally in our area.  24 Q   The Carrier language then, we will describe it that  25 way, the Wet'suwet'en people today describe their  26 language as the Wet'suwet'en language.  Okay.  You  27 heard it as the Carrier.  Did you hear the Carrier  28 language being spoken, have you heard it being spoken?  29 A   I have heard it, but is this -- do you mean when I was  30 in the company of Leonard and Arthur Tom?  31 Q   Firstly, if you had heard it being spoken?  32 A   Yes, lots, yes.  33 Q   And then heard it being spoken by Leonard George?  34 A   No, I never did.  Could I just answer that fully?  I  35 was interested kind of in language, I know a few  36 languages myself, and I just asked -- the reason why I  37 knew that Leonard knew another language because I  38 asked him how do you say black bear, I believe,  39 something to that effect, in Carrier, and he said, I  40 think, Sus.  I could be wrong but that's, to the best  41 of my recollection. How about river, and I think he  42 said qua, so Susqua means Black Bear River, Susqua  43 River.  Just in that context I have talked to him  44 about language and no other.  45 Q   Did he tell you what the name for lake was?  4 6 A   No.  47 Q   Okay.  Now you hunted at Owen Lake with Leonard 18555  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 George?  2 A  At or near, yes.  3 Q   About the same time period?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And he took you in there?  6 A   He did, excuse me, but I knew about it sort of before.  7 Q   You knew of the lake?  8 A   I knew of the lake and I believe I was on the road.  9 You see, I explored a lot when I came to Smithers, my  10 idea of an entertainment for a weekend was to go with  11 my wife and drive and see all these places and I  12 climbed mountains and so forth and, actually, I was  13 probably, I could say that I drove past there.  14 Q   But that's a place that Leonard George took you to  15 hunt?  16 A   Yes, that's where he suggested, yes.  17 Q   And he said he had a trapline there?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   I think you said more precisely his father had a  20 trapline?  21 A   Yes, that' right, that's what he said.  22 Q   Did he also tell you that his brother Andy had a  23 trapline there?  24 A   No, but Andy told it to me years later.  In fact, in  25 the last three or four years.  That's Andrew George  26 you are referring to?  27 Q   Yes.  And you know that to be Leonard George's  28 brother?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And in terms of the area that you hunted in with  31 Leonard George and Arthur Tom at Morice Lake or Morice  32 River, where was that, do you recall?  33 A  Whereabouts?  34 Q   On the river.  35 A   Right near the road -- we would walk in a little bit,  36 you know, and scout and just look, it wasn't anywhere  37 really where it would take a day or half a day to walk  38 in.  And, really, Owen Lake I mentioned because we  39 drove there a number of times and I am not sure we  40 walked more than 100 yards off the lake.  I mean off  41 the road.  42 Q   Did you learn the name for Owen Lake in Wet'suwet'en?  43 A   No.  That's the only name I know.  44 Q   What about the name for Morice River, did you learn  45 that?  4 6 A   No, I didn't.  47 Q   Have you ever heard of the name Wed'zen qua? 18556  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 A   No.  2 Q   You understand that qua means river in Wet'suwet'en?  3 A   Right.  4 Q   And I take it that it was Leonard George who suggested  5 that the place to go, was for you and he to go on this  6 hunting trip was down the Morice River at Owen Lake,  7 it was his suggestion?  8 A   Yes, or other farmers fields where we hunted black  9 bear from time to time.  In the Quick area,  10 essentially.  11 Q   And there wasn't any doubt in your mind that Leonard  12 George was familiar with that area?  13 A   No, there wasn't.  14 Q   Now, I wanted to ask you about the, what you said  15 about hunting in the Blunt Creek or Harold Price Creek  16 area.  17 A   Okay.  18 Q   And I think you said that you were -- you hunted there  19 from 1969?  20 A   Yes, something to that effect, yes.  21 Q   And my understanding was that you said that you  22 purchased a half interest in the area from Jerry  23 Langdon?  24 A   Langan.  25 Q   Langan, L-A-N-G-A-N?  26 A   I believe, yes.  27 Q   And you said you eventually bought him out in '72?  2 8 A  Approximately, yes.  29 Q   So the two of you shared the area for two or three  30 years?  31 A   He didn't do any active guiding, really, just certain  32 things, he told me where to go, Jerry did, and I asked  33 him certain pointers, he took me in, come to think of  34 it, he took me in -- we had a trip in about 1970, by  35 horseback along the Susqua River, and we drove with a  36 trailer and a few horses, he, I and his wife, we  37 parked the truck and the trailer where really we  38 couldn't go hardly any more and took the horses out  39 and saddled them up and there was sort of a little  40 road going, more or less, in other words, along and a  41 little bit up the hill actually on the northern side  42 from the Susqua River, and we rode along there to the  43 confluence of Harold Price Creek and Susqua River and  44 there is a settlement there, by a settlement, I mean a  45 house or a homestead, pardon me, and we saw a man and  46 a woman, they were a married couple and I think they  47 had kids. 18557  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  MR.  GOLDI  3  THE  COURT  4  5  MR.  RUSH:  6  7  8  9  THE  COURT  10  11  MR.  RUSH:  12  13  14  15  16  THE  COURT  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  25  26  THE  COURT  27  28  29  30  31  MR.  RUSH:  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  Q  44  A  45  46  Q  47  A  What did you pay for the area?  £:  Is that relevant, my lord?  :  Well, at the moment I am not sure that it is, Mr.  Rush.  I think it is some measurement in the mind of this  witness of what the value is of what's been said is an  exclusive hunting certificate and as well some measure  of the value of the game in the area.  :  Would it change anything if it was a million dollars  instead of $5,000?  What different would it make?  Well, it would certainly tell your lordship something  about the bountiful or non-bountiful nature of the  game in the area and hence what type of value it might  be to someone who wanted to take the game out of  there.  :  I am not sure, we have got a Susqua and I am not  sure we have got a sequitur.  People buy things for  unusual reasons, often they have a personal attachment  or they have a mind set that they want to have  something and they will pay a lot of money.  Do you object to telling what the price was that  you paid?  My lord, I would rather not get into personal things  in the same way as I tell my accountant, if that's  acceptable to the court.  :  Well, I would certainly accede to the question if  the witness didn't object.  The fact that the witness  objects I have to treat it as a matter that I can't  pay any attention to, but I am not satisfied that it's  relevant, Mr. Rush.  I think it may not be answered.  You told us you sold the area to a man by the name of  McTague in 1976?  That's right, and his partner, Fred Monteau, I think  the name was.  And they don't -- he is not the present holder of a  certificate in that area now, is he?  I believe they passed that on to -- they did work out  there, they guided, they put a cabin on so-called  Hilda Lake, they have built it, they hunted out of  there.  And they have sold this, I believe, to a man  by the name of Blaney, Norm Blaney.  When did that happen?  I am not really sure, in the last maybe five years or  some such thing.  McTague isn't the owner today of that certificate?  Blaney -- let's put it this way, Blaney I know, he 1855?  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 could be working under McTague, technically, and I  2 really don't know.  3 Q   I see.  All right.  4 A   It would be hearsay.  5 Q   So far as your involvement goes, Dr. Steciw, back in  6 the period from '70 to '76, let me see if I can  7 correctly summarize what I thought your evidence was,  8 and that is that you went in to the Blunt Creek/  9 Harold Price area annually but on a sporadic basis  10 from '70 to '76 except for '75?  11 A  What do you mean by sporadic exactly?  12 Q   I don't know, that was a term you used.  And I took  13 you to mean that that was not on a regular basis,  14 irregularly but every year?  15 A   Yes, okay.  That would be fair.  16 Q   That is a fair way of putting it?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And that seems to be a period of about five years; is  19 that right?  20 A   From, let's see, '69 to '76.  21 Q   Except for '75.  22 A   Except for '75, yes.  23 Q   And the time that you seem to have gone in there for  24 the most part was in the month of September?  25 A   Yes, yes.  26 Q   And is the reason for that particular time the fact  27 that it was when the hunting season was open?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   For the game that you were looking for?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And the game was moose, was it?  32 A  Moose, black bear, goats.  33 Q   Goat.  34 A   Grizzly too but primarily, yes, that covers it.  35 Q   Now, I think you told us that the first time that you  36 went into the area you went on a trail to Goat  37 Mountain?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And you said that that was a trail that ran up from  40 Duck Wing Lake?  41 A  Well, from -- we used to go in, it's all changed now a  42 little bit because there is some sort of a farm off  43 the Telkwa high road where we used to go in, however  44 the road you can still find.  45 Q   It's also been clear-cut up there too?  46 A   Yes, in places.  But we went in Duck Wing Road and  47 took off, so to say, left the Duck Wing Road, before 18559  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  Q  4  5  6  7  A  8  9  Q  10  MR. GOLD  11  12  MR. RUSH  13  A  14  MR. RUSH  15  Q  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Duck Wing Lake, before we got to it, on a certain  point, as I explained.  Okay.  Now, you said something in your evidence  yesterday that was of -- that I noted and that was  that your access to the trail was via a blind trail,  that's what you said?  Okay, let me explain to you.  Would you like me to  explain?  First, would you agree with me that's what you said?  3:  That's not what he said, my lord.  There is the  transcript.  I have the transcript, thank you.  I went blindly, I thought I said, or without a trail.  I will just tell you what you said.  The question was:  "How would you get into the area?"  And the answer  was, "Okay, there were -- first of all with horses  that I took in.  I had a pack string of horses.  I  would get in on the so-called Duck Wing Lake road and  then at a certain point I had to blaze tree where I  knew where to go in with horses, sort of to say  blindly without a trail.  This is no keep it more or  less secret from other people."  That's fair enough.  I just want to pause pause there.  You wanted to keep  your access to the main trail secret?  Yes.  And I take it that the reason, secrecy is important in  hunting, is it?  Guiding, of course.  And guiding?  Yes.  And the idea is you don't want other hunters to know  where you are going and where the access is to the  game that you want; is that right?  Yes.  I take it as well you don't want other hunters or  other people to know about where your equipment is  located?  That's another reason.  Or where your cabins are; is that right?  Yes.  Now, I take it that the reason for the secrecy, if I  may put it this way, is that there is a good deal of  competition among hunters?  Yes, in certain places.  If I may explain to you, what  would be a wilderness, almost unspoiled to some 18560  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 people, if honestly if I see another man's track  2 there, to me, that kind of spoils it, as far as my  3 personal hunting goes.  In other words, there is a  4 matter of degree, you know what I mean, and I just  5 wanted this to be as possibly, to my own knowledge, as  6 possible.  7 Q   You don't want other people in your areas where you're  8 hunting?  9 A   That's right.  10 Q   And to that extent, would you agree with me, Dr.  11 Steciw, that there is a tension between guiding and  12 resident hunters?  13 A  When you say guiding, you mean me specifically?  14 Q   Yes, from your knowledge as a game --  15 A   I think that's a strong word.  16 Q   Tension is too strong?  17 A   I think so.  We have had resident hunters fly in in  18 bad weather to our cabin and so forth, and we have fed  19 them, we have, you know, offered shelter until they  20 could get out.  Now, I wouldn't like this to become,  21 you know,  another Vancouver airport, you know, but  22 the thing is that, you know, you have to sort of, how  23 would you put it, you just can't tell people, go away,  24 and I have never done this essentially.  25 Q   Your cordial when they get there but you don't really  26 want them there?  27 A   That's right.  Precisely.  28 Q   Just to carry on with the passage that I quoted from  29 the transcript a few moments ago, you said, and I am  30 quoting, picking up from the last sentence in your  31 evidence yesterday:  "This is to keep it more or less  32 secret from other people and then after, shall we say,  33 half a mile to a mile, the real trail began and this  34 trail went ultimately to the goats, so-called Goat  35 Mountain, in that area where I hunted goats  36 primarily."  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   So, do I understand you to say there that you wanted  39 to keep the access to the main trail a secret and then  40 that main trail, once you were on the main trail, it  41 went on up to Goat Mountain where you could hunt goat?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   Now, the trail that you got on, which was the main  44 trail, was a well-established one, wasn't it?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And it was well-travelled?  47 A   Could I -- you see, when we got in there first of all, 18561  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 there are parts of it, of course, that were very  2 well-established but in places we had to get off our  3 horses and look for it.  It became better established  4 when I cut it out at least once.  5 Q   Well, trails have to be cut regularly, don't they?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   There are dead falls every year?  8 A   Yes, yes.  9 Q   All right.  10 Madam registrar, I would like to show the witness,  11 if you will, Exhibit 164.  12 Now, Dr. Steciw, I wonder if you would just go off  13 the witness stand here and come over to this exhibit.  14 It's 55 now, 55-C, and you have marked the trail which  15 I think we have been talking about that leads off of  16 an area to the southeast of Duck Wing Lake as number  17 three, do you see there?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   It's a dashed line, is that so?  20 A   Yes.  Okay.  21 Q   All right.  You can just sit down.  I want to show you  22 Exhibit 164, if I can.  23 A   Could I make a comment before I go out?  24 Q   Please go ahead.  25 A   That broken line that I marked there, you see, that is  26 the general direction to which that trail led.  It's  27 impossible for me to tell you exactly how that trail  28 led because, you see, it was tall timber on both sides  29 a lot of the times and you really didn't see hardly  30 where you were going a lot of the time.  Once we broke  31 out in the open country, then you could.  That trail  32 had many turns and all kinds of, you know, things that  33 I couldn't possibly reproduce on a map especially that  34 size.  You see, that's what I would like to just say.  35 Q   I understand those are frailties that exist with  36 respect to every trail; is that right?  37 A  Well, particularly that one.  38 Q   I want to show you Exhibit 164.  39 A   Okay.  40 Q   Now, if you will orient yourself, you will see where  41 the village site of Moricetown is here indicated.  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And you see where Duck Wing Lake is located?  44 A   Duck Wing Lake, yes.  45 Q   Now if Moricetown is located accurately and Duck Wing  46 Lake is located accurately, would you --  47 A   Excuse me, what is this boundary?  That's a 18562  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  Q  territorial boundary, it's not a river?  Q   It's a river and it's a territorial boundary.  But you  needn't concern yourself with that.  I would ask you  to direct your attention to the dashed line that runs  south and east of Duck Wing Lake and goes in what  appears to be an easterly direction and is marked and  circled with the number two and I would ask you if  that line is a line that runs approximately the same  place as the trail that you marked with the number  three?  A   Before I answer that, I would just like to ask you  where is Goat Mountain on here?  Where exactly is it  so I can know?  Q   If Moricetown is here and Duck Wing Lake is where it  shows on the map, you tell me where Goat Mountain is?  A   I can't, because, you see, I can't orientate myself on  this map, really.  I am not playing games with you, I  am just telling you.  If you could tell me that Goat  Mountain is here, a lake here --  Q   My assumption for the moment, if my assumption is  correct, the area here with these words Nee Beet  Diiyii is Goat Mountain?  A   I must say I have no idea.  I would have to see it on  a regular map and I would like to have it, if  possible, in colour.  You know, it's much easier to  see than just black lines which I can't sometimes tell  from the, you know, the contour lines from where the  lake is, if possible.  Just a moment.  N-E-E, B-E-E-T, D-I-I-Y-I-I.  My question to you, Dr. Steciw, is can you not say  that the trail that you marked as number three on  Exhibit 55 is marked in approximately the same  location as the dashed line, if you accept that that  represents a trail, the dashed line on Exhibit 164 and  marked number two?  A   It could be.  But as I mentioned, I am not really sure  at all in fact.  Q   Do you know of any other well-established trail in  approximately the same location?  A   No.  Q   And you know, don't you, Dr. Steciw, that that trail  is the old Babine Trail?  A  Actually, I didn't, but I did know something about it  in the sense that it was used to transport ore or some  such thing from some mine, but I wasn't aware that  that was the Babine trail. 18563  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  Q   I didn't say it was the Babine Trail, what I suggested  to you is that you knew it was the old Babine Trail?  A   I honestly must say no to that.  THE COURT:  Should we take the afternoon adjournment?  MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED FOLLOWING RECESS)  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Wilf Roy  Official Reporter 18564  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT)  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  Q  Mr. Rush?  Thank you.  I want to show Exhibit 164 to the witness  again.  Dr. Steciw, I'm just showing you this Exhibit  164.  The trail that you indicated that you went on up  to Goat Mountain, you said that it was, I think, south  and east of Duckwing Lake, or at least it seems to be  by the way you drew it on the map?  A   Could I just say the only way I knew it was that on  the Duckwing Lake Road, it was before Duckwing Lake,  before we got to it.  I really honestly hate to tell  you, you know, the compass.  Q   Let me ask you, was it before you got to Gramophone  Creek?  A   Gramophone Creek is supposed to -- is supposed to be  crossing the Telkwa Highway, isn't it, at one point?  Q   If it's shown accurately on this Exhibit 164.  A   I see what you mean.  Q   See it there?  A   I see what you're getting at.  Yes.  I think so, just  before -- short distance before, maybe, to the best of  my recollection, half a mile or some such thing.  Q   So am I correct in saying the trail that you're  referring to was just before Gramophone Creek?  A   You mean its beginning?  Like, we went in from the  Telkwa Highway Road.  Q   Yes.  A   I believe so, yes, right.  Q   Then looking at Exhibit 164 is the dashed line that is  marked with a 3, is that approximately the place where  this trail that you took is located as it's shown on  the map?  A   Okay.  Could I just answer that fully?  You see, at  the beginning, yes, but you see then the road had all  kinds of turns and stuff and I honestly just am not --  I'll not say definitely, but perhaps it was.  MR. RUSH:  All right.  You agree with me, or if I may summarize  your evidence, that the dashed line in Exhibit 3 is  what you believe to be the trail -- the beginning of  the trail and the route of the trail that you took to  Goat Mountain?  MR. GOLDIE:  That's not a summary of his evidence.  THE WITNESS:  No.  I think just the first part.  I would say  like that part near Gramophone Creek, to the best of  my recollection, that's -- that's probably where it 18565  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  was, but that's only a very short portion of it,  perhaps like the first inch on here.  The rest I don't  know because I don't know if that follows actually  Duckwing Road.  Duckwing Road was the actual trail or  road, if you like, that we travelled until, as I  mentioned sometime before, Duck -- some distance  before Duckwing Lake before we turned right.  MR.  RUSH:  Q  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  THE  THE  THE  How many trails are in there going up to Goat  Mountain?  There's only -- oh, only one, and it certainly doesn't  go all the way to Goat Mountain.  It runs out sort of  in a high -- in the alpines, let's say.  All right.  It comes up out of cover in the alpine?  Yes.  There's, like --  If you can just answer the question that I'm putting  to you.  No.  He was in the course of answering that.  He did answer it.  He said yes.  No.  He hadn't finished.  Had you finished?  Not really.  I'd like to give a little more  detail.  COURT:  All right.  WITNESS:  Just before it came out to the open country,  there's kind of a ravine with a creek we followed and  then it came out in the open country.  And this was  actually not totally open country.  It was again park  land, sort of meadows, some, you know, shrub, trees,  maybe 20 feet scrub type of subalpine.  A  Q  A  RUSH:  GOLDIE:  GRANT:  GOLDIE:  COURT:  WITNESS  MR.  RUSH:  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Until you got to that area, the trail for, what, about  three hours was under cover under the forest camp?  Well, I would say, as I mentioned before, from the  time we started, by the time we were at our first  camp, it was eight hours by horses.  Okay.  Now, Dr. Steciw, you've flown over that trail  many times on your way?  No.  You haven't?  I might have flown over it, but I couldn't locate that  in -- you know, in the bush.  You couldn't see that from the air?  No, not that trail.  Parts of it perhaps you can get a  glimpse of sometimes, but not the whole --  Well, for most of it you couldn't see from the air.  You said you were eight hours, right? 18566  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 A   On horseback.  2 Q   All right.  Under cover?  3 A   No.  You see, where the place was where we stopped was  4 in the open country and -- oh, yes.  Most of it was  5 under cover, you're right, but then I would say we  6 broke the cover, went in the park land observing three  7 quarters to maybe an hour to where we had sort of a  8 tent frame built, yes.  9 Q   When you flew over that, you can't see the trail under  10 cover?  11 A   That's right.  Maybe in a few places you might be able  12 to pick up the odd little hint of it, but really in  13 all essence you're correct, you can't.  14 Q   Now, Dr. Steciw, I understood your evidence to be that  15 you knew Henry Alfred?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And it's the case, is it not, that Henry Alfred guided  18 you into the area at Seaton Mountain?  19 A   Sir, I honestly don't think that guiding is  20 appropriate.  It's like two friends going to hunt.  21 Now, if you care to call that guiding, then I agree,  22 but only in that sense.  23 Q   Well, this was in 1967?  24 A   That's right.  25 Q   You hadn't been there for a long period of time?  26 A   That's right.  27 Q   And as I understand it, my instructions are that  28 somebody from Fish and Wildlife introduced you to  29 Henry Alfred?  30 A   It could have been.  31 Q   And they introduced you to Henry Alfred because you  32 wanted to go goat hunting?  33 A   Yes.  I think it was Ken Sarradon come to think of it  34 now.  35 Q   And Henry Alfred agreed to take you goat hunting --  36 A   Okay.  37 Q   -- to show you where to get the goats?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   In that sense that's what I mean by guiding.  40 A  As long as we understand, that's fine.  41 Q   I'm saying, Dr. Steciw, at that time you didn't know  42 where to go, right?  43 A   Yes, very correct.  The only reason why I sort of  44 object to the wording is because amongst hunters you  45 just don't use that word unless you're being guided  46 professionally, that's all.  Okay.  That's correct.  47 Q   Mr. Alfred took you on a two-day goat hunt up to 18567  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 Seaton Mountain?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And showed you where to hunt goats?  4 A   Yes.  He hunted with me.  5 Q   He did.  Now, did you use that opportunity, Dr.  6 Steciw, to make an evaluation of the game potential  7 for the area?  8 A   No.  9 Q   Now, the place where Henry Alfred took you in 1967 was  10 the same place that you took two American hunters to  11 hunt goat in 1976?  12 A   No.  No, it wasn't.  I can show you where he took me  13 if you care to.  14 Q   Well, I would like you to confirm for me what you've  15 shown on the map, Exhibit 55, by a dashed line and  16 close to -- well, you've marked it with a 2 there; is  17 that right?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Okay.  Perhaps not to mark it again.  20 A   No, I won't.  I just want to point it out so we can be  21 exact.  My lord, I don't know if it's too far.  22 THE COURT:  I can see it.  23 THE WITNESS:  We went right — let's see.  We went  24 approximately -- approximately -- now, let me just  25 see.  Okay.  You see this forestry access road.  As I  26 mentioned to you, you almost go to the very end before  27 you go and take off a turn.  Where I took the hunters,  28 we went up a totally different trail, totally  29 different.  We climbed Mount Seaton here right to the  30 top.  We didn't see any goats at all.  We looked into  31 the valley just behind Mount Seaton and Henry and I  32 said, well, we are not seeing anything.  If we stay  33 together, our chance is half.  If we separate, then  34 you look across this sort of mountain.  Reg and I  35 looked across that and we did.  We separated.  And he  36 just happened to walk into some goats and he shot a  37 goat and I didn't, so I didn't.  But where we hunted  38 was over here.  This is the little valley here, little  39 valley here.  40 THE COURT:  To the west of the circle.  41 THE WITNESS:  That's right, this way.  Where I went with the  42 hunters was the next valley over.  4 3    MR. RUSH:  44 Q   All right.  Does the dashed line and marked with a 2,  45 is that the place that shows approximately the trail  46 or the road that -- the road and the trail that you  47 took in order to get to the place where you hunted in 1856?  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 '76?  2 A   Yes, approximately.  3 Q   Now, I'd like to show the witness Exhibit 211.  And  4 this is a map that was introduced in the evidence of  5 Mr. Alfred Michell.  It is of the Caspit and Woos  6 territories.  Now, Dr. Steciw, if you will look at  7 this map, please, Exhibit 211 and try to orient  8 yourself.  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   All right.  You see Moricetown here, which is marked  11 Moricetown?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   All right.  You see Blunt Creek?  14 A   Yes.  There is branches of Blunt Creek, yes.  15 Q   And I'm asking you to look at the base map, which in  16 blue is -- shows Mount Seaton.  Do you see that?  17 A   Yes, sir.  18 Q   All right.  And what I would ask you is if the purple  19 line beside which the word "martin" is written --  20 A  Martin?  Where's martin?  21 Q   Do you see this?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   Is that approximately the access road and the route  24 that you took in order to go hunting with the two  25 American hunters in 1976?  26 A   Okay.  That is approximate but, you know, is there --  27 I'd have to ask you for your -- or whoever -- for me  28 to say yes there has to be a broken down shack with an  29 aluminum roof at the end of it, in fact not really at  30 the end of the road, but just sort of over the edge of  31 a bank, and if that's the way it is, then that is  32 exactly the road.  33 Q   All right.  34 A   If it isn't, then it isn't.  35 Q   We don't have an aluminum shack broken down on the  36 map.  We'll have to do the best we can.  But I'm  37 asking you if approximately that line indicated with  38 martin written beside it just to the right of the word  39 Mount Seaton is approximately where you took the  40 American hunters in 1976?  41 A   Oh, you mean where I took them right at the end of  42 them here.  43 Q   The road, the line.  I'm asking if that line  44 represents it.  45 A   If that represents the --  46 Q   The route you followed.  47 A   The route.  Okay.  That was a cat road.  It was easy 18569  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 to see it was made with a cat.  There's still even cat  2 tracks in the ground.  3 Q Yes.  4 A So it's in approximately the same area.  5 Q All right.  You notice the word "goat"?  6 A Yes.  7 Q Goats at the top of that?  8 A Yes.  9 Q Now, is that an area as represented on the map from  10 your experience where goats were located?  11 A By Henry Alfred and myself?  12 Q Yes.  13 A Yes.  It probably is.  14 Q Thank you.  Did you know Henry Alfred to speak the  15 Carrier or Wet'suwet'en language?  16 A At that time or since then?  17 Q At that time first.  18 A I'm not sure at that time, but now as I'm -- as I  19 gathered, he probably speaks it, but I'm not sure.  2 0 Q All right.  And you -- you knew him at that time to be  21 a Wet'suwet'en or Carrier person?  22 A Sure.  I knew him as a native who lived in Moricetown.  23 Q Thank you.  And did you know that he held a chief's  24 name at that time?  25 A No.  26 Q Do you know that he holds a chief's name today?  27 A I think that in the meantime, yeah.  Four, five, six  28 years ago I think I found that out but only by  29 hearsay, just a comment that somebody made perhaps,  3 0 you know.  31 Q Do you know the chief's name that he holds?  32 A No.  33 Q Do you know the house or clan group that he is a  34 member of?  35 A No.  36 MR. RUSH: Dr. Steciw, you're familiar, are you, with the term  37 feast as it's used by the Wet'suwet'en people?  38 MR. GOLDIE:  Well —  39 THE WITNESS:  Vaguely.  4 0    MR. GRANT:  41 Q Vaguely?  42 A Very vaguely.  43 Q Are you familiar with the term potlatch?  44 A Just what I hear on the mass media essentially.  45 Q Have you ever been to a feast or a potlatch, Dr.  46 Steciw?  47 A The nearest I came to it was when one of my 18570  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 patients -- one of the older women in Fort Babine died  2 and I went to her funeral and I remember that somebody  3 was saying they're having a potlatch after, but I left  4 after the funeral, so that's the closest I ever came  5 to it.  6 Q   You've never attended a feast or a potlatch in  7 Moricetown or Hagwilget?  8 A   Or where?  9 Q   Hagwilget?  10 A  Which means?  11 Q   Do you not know the village of Hagwilget?  12 A   Not by that name anyway.  If I know it, it's by  13 another name.  14 Q   Perhaps you know it by its name Tsekya.  Do you know  15 that name?  16 A   No.  17 Q   Dr. Steciw, do you know anything of the rules and laws  18 regarding feasts and the passing of territorial  19 ownership by the Wet'suwet'en or Gitksan people?  20 A   Only what I heard on the radio perhaps or other mass  21 media.  22 Q   And I take it that just as you've never attended a  23 feast among the -- at Moricetown, you've never  24 attended a feast among the Gitksan people?  25 A   No.  26 Q   And just so that we can be clear, if I tell you that  27 Hagwilget is a village of the Wet'suwet'en people, you  28 know where the Hagwilget Bridge is over to -- leading  29 over to Old Hazelton?  30 A   You mean that high -- high bridge over the Skeena or  31 Bulkley, is it?  32 Q   Yes.  It's the Bulkley.  33 A   The Bulkley, that's right, just before it runs into  34 the Skeena.  35 Q   Yes.  That's right.  The village before you get to the  36 bridge is called Hagwilget.  37 A   Okay.  38 Q   I take it so that you -- we both understand each  39 other, you've never been to a feast at either of the  40 Hagwilget village or Moricetown?  41 A  At any place.  42 Q   All right.  Thank you.  Now, you told the Court you  43 knew Lucy Namox?  44 A   I think I do.  If that's the right person, I think she  45 used to be a patient of mine.  I just know her in that  46 capacity.  47 Q   You may be -- you said that you may have been 18571  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 acquainted with Stanley Morris?  2 A   No.  I think I actually did meet Stanley Morris at --  3 at sort of a -- what was it?  I think it was a 25th  4 anniversary of a friend of mine and I think it was in  5 Telkwa.  He was one of the guests and so was I.  6 Q   Do you know Stanley's hereditary chief's name?  7 A   No, I don't.  8 Q   And what about Lucy, Lucy Namox?  9 A   No.  I have no idea.  10 Q   And you were referred to the chief's names of David --  11 or at least to the names of David Green and Roy Morris  12 and Dick Naziel.  Do you recall that?  13 A   Okay.  Yes.  I've just met Roy, I think, Morris a very  14 short time ago and it was in the emergency room in the  15 hospital.  He brought in one of his relatives, I think  16 a nephew.  That's my only acquaintance with him.  17 Q   Do you know Roy Morris' chief's name?  18 A   No.  19 Q   What about David Green?  2 0 A   No.  I don't even know David Green.  21 Q   And I can't recall whether or not you knew Dick Naziel  22 or not.  23 A   Dick Naziel.  I knew some Naziels, but I don't recall  24 it.  25 Q   Dr. Steciw, did you -- did you ever ask Dick Naziel or  26 Roy Morris of their chief's name?  27 A   No.  2 8 Q   Now, when you went out hunting to -- in the Blunt  29 Creek area -- I'm still dealing with that period from  30 1969 to 1976.  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   You did -- it's not your practice to announce to  33 anyone that you're going out hunting?  34 A  Well, I might say to a few friends or what have you.  35 Q   You don't generally announce it to -- in any public  36 way or you don't tell people as a matter of course  37 that you're going out hunting and this is where you're  38 going?  39 A   Okay.  To Leonard George I had done that and I might  40 have even done it to Henry Alfred.  I've asked Henry  41 Alfred if he wanted to go hunting goat in the same  42 place or further, to walk in many times -- well, not  43 many, but, you know, a number of times after we went  44 hunting the first time, because we had a really good  45 time, you know, and I like Henry Alfred.  46 MR. RUSH:  My question to you, Dr. Steciw, is you don't normally  47 tell people you're going out hunting and where you're 18572  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 going; is that right?  2 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm sorry.  What does my friend mean by people?  3 The witness has endeavoured to answer the question by  4 addressing specific people.  I mean is he talking  5 about taking an ad in the newspaper or something like  6 that?  7 MR. RUSH:  The witness can answer.  If he wants to define a  8 population group, he certainly is capable of doing it,  9 I think.  10 MR. GOLDIE:  It's not a question which lends itself to a very  11 precise answer.  12 MR. RUSH:  13 Q   I think it is, but if it will help -- are you  14 concerned about the question, Dr. Steciw?  15 A   No, I'm not.  Well, yes and no.  Let me tell you I  16 don't publicize it over CBC or put it in the paper if  17 that's what you mean.  18 Q   And you certainly don't tell the people at Moricetown  19 whether you're going hunting and where you're going?  20 A   I have told Leonard George.  In fact, I asked him to  21 guide for me.  He was going to guide for me.  As a  22 matter of fact, to be specific, in 1976, the last year  23 I guided in that area, the Blunt Creek and so forth,  24 and in fact the only reason why he didn't was because  25 I couldn't reach -- well, he said he would and then he  26 went away somewhere.  I needed help, to tell the  27 truth, desperately, especially with the horses, but as  28 it turned out, he didn't -- he wasn't around, so I  29 decided to walk in instead, which takes much less  30 effort actually than to get a pack train going.  31 Q   I take it that you would have found the assistance of  32 Leonard George to guide you into the area at that  33 time?  34 A   No.  At that time I knew where I wanted to go.  He  35 didn't know where I wanted to go.  36 Q   I see.  37 A   That's a fact.  I really must stress that.  38 Q   Now, Dr. Steciw, you told us you sold this area in  39 1976; is that right?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   You bought another area --  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   — in 77?  44 A   Yes.  That's right.  45 Q   And you bought it from two people by the name of Love  46 and Lee?  47 A  Well, that was the company name, Love Bros, and Lee. 18573  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 The partners involved at that time were Bob Henderson,  2 Bill Love Senior and -- let's see -- oh, Ron Fleming.  3 Q   Okay.  This is a private deal, was it?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And who had it before then; do you know?  6 A  Wally Love, who's a brother of Bill Love Senior, was  7 involved in it at one time and Jack Lee, of course,  8 was involved for many years.  9 Q   But the outfit continued under the company name, but  10 they —  11 A   That's right.  12 Q   They had got out, is that it?  13 A   That's right.  14 Q   Now, the area that you purchased at that time, I think  15 you told us was some 4,000 square miles in size?  16 A  Approximately, yes.  17 Q   And after the two adhesions, as I understand your  18 evidence, you increased the size of the area?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   And that's about now 91 -- about 9100 square  21 kilometres?  22 A   Little over that, I think.  I think maybe 10,000  23 something square kilometres, but, you know, I'm not  24 really that sure.  25 Q   All right.  The sale.  Were there purchases involved  26 in each of the two adhesions?  Did you have to  27 purchase the --  28 A   No.  The first adhesion was actually an area that  29 didn't belong to any guide and it was actually quite a  30 large size, chunk.  That was -- the game branch sort  31 of thought that to make operations sort of, you  32 know -- guiding operations more feasible, gave it, I  33 think -- you know, divided it up, I think, to three or  34 four territories that were adjacent to each other and  35 became part of the respective territories.  36 Q   The sales of these -- or the purchases were approved  37 by Fish and Wildlife?  38 A   No.  Now, we're talking about the initial --  39 Q   Yes.  40 A   Yes, it was.  41 Q   And what about the adhesions?  42 A  Well, the adhesions were actually made -- the first  43 adhesion -- you see, there was no sale.  It was just  44 added because no guide had it at the time, so it was  45 essentially Crown land.  46 Q   So they amalgamated it into yours?  47 A   That's right, into mine and Ken Balford's.  He got a 18574  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  part, Harry McGowan and perhaps someone else, Carson,  Vern Carson.  Q   What about the last adhesion?  A   The last adhesion cost me.  I purchased it from Ron  Fleming.  THE COURT:  Mr. Rush, excuse me, please.  Did you say 10,000  THE  THE  MR.  Mr. Rush,  acres?  WITNESS:  No, no.  COURT:  Thank you  RUSH:  Q  10,000 square kilometres approximately.  Sorry, Mr. Rush.  That's fine.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  MR.  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  Now, I want to ask you a bit about your  clientele, Dr. Steciw.  In the guiding operation you  guide non-residents, is that so?  Primarily.  I have guided two residents -- actually,  only -- well, two essentially.  There could have been  others, but I recall only two residents.  And these people that you guide, they're from Europe?  Some of them.  And some of them are from the United States?  Primarily, yes .  So you in -- for the most part you draw on your  clientele people from Europe and people from the U.S.?  A   Yes.  RUSH:  And what do they pay you for a hunt?  GOLDIE:  I suppose there's some relevance to this.  It's the  details of a man's business.  If your lordship  considers it or my friend can indicate what that has  to do with the evidence in chief or the issues in this  case --  COURT:  Is this advertised anywhere?  Is it public  knowledge?  WITNESS:  Actually it isn't except it's advertised to the  prospective client.  GRANT:  Q   Well, surely if somebody contacts you by telephone and  says what's it going to cost me to go out on one of  your hunts, you tell them?  A   Yes.  Prospective hunter, prospective client.  Q   What do you tell them?  A   I tell them the price, how much it's going to cost  them and how -- what I provide for that.  GOLDIE:  It's not that I think this evidence is confidential  in any way.  It's that I don't understand its  relevance.  COURT:  Well, I don't either, but I'd be glad to hear  whatever submissions you want to make in that regard,  Mr. Rush. 18575  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 MR. RUSH:  Well, I think, my lord, it goes -- it is a way of  2 valuating the process of guide outfitting and what the  3 value is of it, and I say that it is also a measure of  4 the value of what's taken out of the area and a  5 measure of what potential loss in resources there are.  6 THE COURT:  I'm not hearing the issue of damages.  See, we -- we  7 go to some lengths to impose this kind of a disclosure  8 on experts, but when you have lay people who are  9 brought into litigation, I think we ought not to pry  10 anymore deeply than we have in their private affairs.  11 I think it is a matter of policy to try to confine  12 that sort of thing to what is -- what is relevant and  13 I just don't see what relevance it has.  14 MR. RUSH:  Well, my lord, I say —  15 THE COURT:  I can see where it might have relevance if we were  16 trying the issue of damages.  17 MR. RUSH:  Well, presumably we aren't going to bring Dr. Steciw  18 back to try the issue of damages.  Dr. Steciw is here  19 and before us and in my submission there is every  20 reason to determine -- it's clear from the records  21 that there are kills in the area that he guides for  22 and in my submission there's a cost attached to that  23 and there's a -- there's a value which -- which is  24 taken from the area.  25 THE COURT:  Well, insofar as the claim of the plaintiffs to  26 ownership and jurisdiction of this territory's  27 concerned, it doesn't seem to me to make any  28 difference whether he charges one dollar a day or  29 $10,000 a day.  The fact is he charges for it.  Most  30 businesses charge for what they do.  It doesn't seem  31 to me that it's going to advance the trial over the  32 issues that have arisen in this case to know what the  33 price structuring for guide fitters is essentially for  34 his services.  35 MR. RUSH:  I say, my lord, it relates to the question of the  36 valuation of the operation and as -- not only is it a  37 measure of the value of the -- the absolute value of  38 the operation, but it's a measure of Dr. Steciw's  39 interest in the operation and in my submission it's a  40 factor that you ought well to weigh in determining, if  41 there are issues to weigh up in terms of conflicts of  42 evidence, what interest the witness might have in the  43 area.  And I say that this is a measure of it.  What  44 is the economic interest that the witness might have  45 in the operation?  He's told us that he has an  46 interest in keeping it secret.  In my submission the  47 fact that there is a valuation that attaches to the 18576  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  THE COUR1  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  MR. RUSH  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  operation in terms of the value that is paid for is a  measure of the interest that he has as well.  :  Well, I think the confidential aspect in this matter  is as ancient and as well known as the common  expression Macy's doesn't tell Gimbles.  I really  don't think that we ought to know the private business  of this witness or almost anybody who other than  experts who are brought here to assist us in  determining these difficult matters and I do not think  the -- the relevance level is sufficiently elevated to  make it necessary for us to investigate these matters  and I'm not going to require the witness to answer.  Now, when you hire your operation, Dr. Steciw, do you  offer to your clients a guaranteed kill?  No.  What do you offer to do for them?  I essentially offer to take them into country to which  I consider to be good for whatever species of game I  say it's supposed to be good and to produce guiding  services to them.  And how do you advertise that?  I have a brochure and word of mouth and also two  booking agents I had.  And I did actually place a few  ads in -- what is it called?  Western Guidelines, I  guess.  What's that?  They might have changed the name of that.  It's a  magazine that comes out of G.O.A.B.C, Guides and  Outfitters Association, puts out.  Do you tell them they're coming to a wilderness area?  Yes.  As long as I take them to a wilderness area.  And do you describe that as the last frontier?  Perhaps I used that term, yes.  And your clients are looking for trophies, aren't  they?  Most of them.  They want to get a bear and bear skin or --  Um-hum.  Or moose?  Yes.  Now, in '77 you told us that you were out guiding from  mid-September till the end of October?  Just a moment.  In '77?  Yes.  Oh, Okay.  From mid-September to -- we were supposed  to go back at the end of September, but -- yes, a few 18577  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 days in October because the plane couldn't get back  2 because of bad weather.  This was a goats only hunt.  3 Q   Just so I understand the time frame, it was, as I  4 understand it, mid-September to, what, the beginning  5 of October or --  6 A   It was scheduled -- we were supposed to come out  7 either the last day of September, the 1st of October,  8 but because of bad weather, it was two or three days  9 delayed because the plane didn't come in until the  10 weather cleared up.  11 Q   That's about a three-week period?  12 A   No.  Two weeks and a few days.  13 Q   Okay.  Just over two weeks?  14 A   Just over two weeks.  15 Q   All right.  And I think you said that that was the  16 occasion that you took in two American hunters?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And did you do the guiding or did someone else do it?  19 A   I did it and I had an assistant guide with me.  20 Q   Who was that?  21 A  Who was that?  22 Q   Yes.  23 A   Fellow by the name of John Kosa.  24 Q   Now, at that time you said that you saw no signs of  25 human activity in the area or words to that effect; is  26 that right?  27 A   That's right.  Essentially that's right.  28 MR. GOLDIE:  I think he specified a particular geographic  29 location within this area.  3 0    MR. RUSH:  31 Q   I think he did too.  My question though, Dr. Steciw,  32 is that you weren't particularly looking for human  33 activity, were you?  34 A   No.  35 Q   What you were doing out there was looking for game  36 activity?  37 A   Precisely.  Could I actually just for purposes of  38 clarity and completeness just answer one more thing as  39 far as human activity?  There was a campsite.  I  40 forgot to mention this, I guess.  There was a campsite  41 already made by the previous fellow who had some  42 interest in it called Don Smith that I knew about, so  43 I went to this campsite, so I suppose that, you  44 know --  45 Q   Constitutes some human activity?  46 A   Yes.  That's right.  47 Q   Was there anyone there? 1857?  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 A   No.  2 Q   And the idea when you're goat hunting is you spot and  3 stock the goat; is that right?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   That's what you were doing?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And as I understand it, Dr. Steciw, the idea when  8 you're out hunting goat is you don't want to see  9 people?  10 A   Of course.  11 Q   What you want to see is the game?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   All right.  And I think you've indicated that on  14 previous -- or on later occasions you didn't want  15 people to frighten the game?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Now, in '78 you said you were in the Chipmunk Creek  18 area?  19 A   In the spring of 1978, yes.  20 Q   And I understood your evidence to be that it was from  21 mid-May to mid-June?  22 A   It actually started a little bit -- no.  No, not  23 quite.  If I said that I might be off a little bit.  24 It began before mid-May.  I probably got in around  25 10th, 9th.  You know, it's a long time ago and I don't  26 know exact dates, but I know, you see, that I try to  27 allow myself a lot of extra time because I knew I had  28 lots of explorations to do.  I think what happened,  29 originally I booked a trip for something like the 5th  30 or so of May and a DC 3 -- you see, that was a new  31 thing, that I could get a DC 3 and fly all these  32 things in there.  And they promised, I think, a trip  33 on something like May the 5th, but then what happened,  34 they said, no, we can't.  Our crew isn't certified  35 yet.  So there was a slight delay.  So I would have  36 thought that -- I think they were three, four or five  37 days late.  So that would put it 9th or 10th of May,  38 something to that effect, you know.  39 Q   I understood your evidence to be, Dr. Steciw, you were  40 in there for about a month?  41 A   Yes, approximately.  42 Q   Now —  43 A   That's approximately -- makes it just a little under a  44 month, I guess.  45 Q   On that occasion, Dr. Steciw, did you guide or did  46 somebody else guide?  47 A   Oh, no.  I guided. 18579  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Were you there with other guides?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   You said you flew in on a DC 3?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   That's that —  6 A   Chipmunk strip.  7 Q   Chipmunk strip.  That's a strip that -- you didn't  8 build that, did you?  9 A   No, of course not.  10 Q   You said you built a cabin on the Skeena?  11 A   No.  It was a tent frame.  12 Q   A tent frame?  13 A   There was actually three tent frames:  A big tent  14 frame for the cook house and where the guides and I  15 slept and two smaller tent frames where the hunters  16 slept.  17 Q   Okay.  And in reviewing your evidence, I understand  18 that you haven't used that area since '86?  19 A   Let me just check that.  Yes.  That's correct.  20 Q   In the fall of '78 you went into the Slamgeesh area?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And my understanding of your evidence is that you went  23 in in late August to the early part of October?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   A period of five weeks?  26 A   Something to that effect, yes.  27 Q   All right.  And that's to take advantage of, what,  28 the -- the open bear season in the --  29 A   First of all, I went in a little bit --  30 Q   In the fall?  31 A   Not only bear, bear, moose, wolf.  Yes.  Both species  32 of bear, moose and wolf.  And actually I had a goat  33 hunter that year and the main thing, to begin with,  34 you see, was to familiarize myself with the area.  I  35 was never in Slamgeesh area before, so I -- I did a  36 lot of exploring there, you see, and that's the first  37 year I explored Slamgeesh.  38 Q   And you said that you made some trails?  39 A   Oh, yes.  Well, I freshened up one trail going from  40 Slamgeesh Lake towards Damshilgwit Lake.  Parts of it  41 had to be literally made all over again.  There were  42 blazes.  Bob Henderson has told me where the trail was  43 and sometime ago I understood that they put it in.  44 And the other thing that I did --  45 Q   May I just ask you to pause there?  46 A   I'm sorry.  Yes.  47 Q   The trail that you say that you freshened up, that was 18580  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1 an existing trail, an old trail?  2 A   It was an existing trail, yes.  3 Q   And when you say you freshened it up, what you mean is  4 you cleared away the deadfalls?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And let me ask you also, you understand that the word  7 Slamgeesh is a Gitksan name?  8 A   I guessed it, but I didn't know for sure.  9 Q   All right.  And you use the word Damshilgwit?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   You understand that's a Gitksan name as well?  12 A   I again understand that, but I wasn't quite sure.  13 Q   And what about Shilahou?  14 A   Shilahou Creek.  15 Q   Yes.  You understand that to be --  16 A   Probably all Indian names.  I kind of surmised that,  17 but again this is the first time I hear for sure that  18 they are.  19 Q   Now, the trail that you freshened up, you said, was a  20 trail that went in a westerly direction, westward, you  21 say?  22 A   Northwest, yeah, between Slamgeesh and Damshilgwit or  23 so-called Fifth Cabin Lake.  It's the same thing.  24 Q   And that trail runs in a south -- southwesterly  25 direction as well?  26 A   Obliquely, sort of.  27 Q   That's right, isn't it?  And there were other trails  28 in the area?  29 A   No.  It just -- okay.  May I just -- okay.  What  30 happened was this:  That this year -- like I said, I  31 did a lot of exploration and I found where I gathered  32 the old telegraph trail was, because again, you know,  33 I found pieces of wire that was half in the ground and  34 so forth, this thick, grey-looking stuff and a few  35 insulators, and -- but it was in such bad, bad shape.  36 I had an awful hard time really even following it in  37 many places.  I mean you couldn't in fact.  It was  38 nonexistent, so to say.  But in spots, maybe 100  39 yards, 200 yards, maybe in one or two spots only it  40 was there.  So I actually sort of improved on that, so  41 to say, and one trail I cut completely on my own.  I  42 had a look at the mountain south -- southwest of  43 Slamgeesh Lake and thought, well, I have to get there  44 because I need to be in goat country.  How do I go  45 about it?  So I proceeded to figure out how to cut the  46 trail and I did all the way up.  47 Q   The cabin that you went to was on the east side of 18581  I. Steciw (For Province)  Cross-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  Slamgeesh Lake?  North.  Northeast side.  And is there not a trail that goes  down to the bottom end of the Slamgeesh to the outflow  of Slamgeesh?  According to Bob Henderson there's supposed to have  been one, but I never found it.  It was all grown over  You didn't see that?  No.  By the way, that cabin was there when you got there?  Oh, yes.  That was built by Jack Lee and his crew.  That was an old cabin, was it?  Yes, very old.  That would be convenient, my lord.  :  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  Ten o'clock.  Thank  you.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL JULY 12, 1988 AT 10:00 A.M.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings transcribed to the best  of my skill and ability.  Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.


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