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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-06-07] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jun 7, 1989

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 17097  Submission by Mr. Grant  1 JUNE 7, 198 9  2 VANCOUVER, B.C.  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in Court.  In the Supreme Court of British  5 Columbia, this 7th day of June, 1989.  In the matter  6 of Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen at bar, My  7 Lord.  8 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant.  9 MR. GRANT:  Yes, My Lord, before we proceed, my friend raised an  10 issue yesterday, which issue arose out of your  11 decision, and out of evidence of Miss Marsden.  You  12 have seen the -- I object to the production of the  13 material that -- any material Miss Marsden prepared  14 for counsel, and I am prepared to deal with it right  15 now.  And I also say, My Lord, to produce this to you  16 for review, my friends will be going deeper into  17 counsels' files than they have other thus far  18 succeeded in doing.  19 As Miss Marsden said in her evidence, she  20 organized the adaawk for counsel.  All of the adaawk  21 that are relevant to the Gitksan are before Your  22 Lordship, and my friends have them.  Those are not her  23 writings.  What she did was she organized them in a  24 fashion so that counsel could handle them.  It is a  25 matter that we will be utilizing in terms of the  26 production of these and our sense of the organization  27 of these adaawk for final argument.  The question  28 after that was done and our review, we then requested  29 that she prepare a report dealing with the issues of  30 the adaawk.  As she says in her evidence on cross on  31 page 6972:  32  33 "Q   Did you do written work for counsel?  34 A   I was asked to prepare some work for legal  35 counsel in preparation for the case.  36 Q   Yes.  And did the work that you did there  37 incorporate some of the work or reflect some of  38 the work that's in your report or was it  39 completely different?  40 A   It was -- it was on a -- it was the same  41 subject.  It was on the same subject in the  42 sense that I used the same raw materials.  It  43 wasn't on the same subject in the sense it  44 was -- my opinions in my report are not what I  45 was writing about in those things that I  46 prepared.  47 Q   But it was in the same area and you used the 1709?  Submission by Mr. Grant  1 same data?  2 A   I used the same basic material.  3 Q   Do you still have copies of that material?  4 A  Well, I'm referring to what's been put out  5 here, all of the adaawk and all of the Duff  6 files and to a lesser extent the actual  7 microfilm."  8  9    MR. WILLMS:  I think my friend should finish reading the point,  10 because she clarifies what she means by that in the  11 next sentence.  12 MR. GRANT:  I have no problem reading a bit more.  13  14 "Q   What I'm referring to is the material you  15 prepared for counsel, that's based on the  16 adaawks?  17 A   No.  I never kept it.  I never kept any copies  18 of that.  It wasn't for me.  19 Q   Do you know whether or not there are copies of  20 that work around?  21 A   I don't know."  22  23 In the course of preparation of considering how to  24 lead the Indian evidence, which Your Lordship has now  25 heard, we requested her assistance to put this vast  26 body of adaawk as to what was relevant to which  27 persons.  This, My Lord -- I will be very frank about  28 this.  This is nothing more than the material -- in  29 order for me to extract that material, I will be going  30 into each one of my files relating to each one of the  31 witnesses that you have heard, and maybe others that  32 you haven't heard.  It's not her original work.  It's  33 the organization of these adaawk and oral histories to  34 aid counsel.  And I submit very strongly that the  35 position that you took with the Gawa position, of  36 course, was quite different, because the section of  37 the ruling that you made on Gawa that my friend relies  38 on says on page 4:  39  40 "I am unable to conclude that the two unproduced  41 reports are earlier drafts of the trial report,  42 but they are in part clearly earlier writings  43 by the witness on some of the same subjects as  44 his trial report.  And I have no doubt they  45 must be produced in accordance with the  46 principles I set out in my earlier judgments on  47 this question, unless it can be said that their 17099  Submission by Mr. Grant  1 designation as part of counsels' brief protects  2 them from disclosure."  3  4 And then you go on -- and that's what I say, is  5 that here what we are dealing with is part of  6 counsels' files.  I mean, quite literally the result  7 of a request to produce these is a result for me to  8 produce counsels' files relating to each of the  9 witnesses.  It's very -- digging very deeply into how  10 we organized ourselves earlier, and how we conceived  11 and perceived the sense of the adaawk.  But it's not  12 the original writings of this witness.  It is the  13 organization of the raw material that you now have, my  14 friend has.  15 THE COURT:  I am not sure that I understand what is meant by  16 this term "organized".  When you say "organized" --  17 sorry, Madam Reporter -- when you say "organized", do  18 you mean that -- she just said that -- she said this  19 adaawk belongs in the Gitludahl file, this adaawk  20 belongs in the Gyolugyet file, this adaawk belongs in  21 some other file?  22 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  This adaawk relates to this chief and this  23 adaawk relates to that chief.  24 THE COURT:  It isn't that she wrote a summary of the adaawk for  25 the file?  26 MR. GRANT:  Now, you have seen and you have before you the  27 ancient Fireweed clans, and that has been produced for  28 you, and, of course, been disclosed to my friends, and  29 that -- in that -- that is the only case in which she  30 took a clan and organized them in that way.  And  31 that's all been produced.  But the summary there that  32 she's done, and in some other cases, not in all by any  33 stretch of the imagination, but in some other cases,  34 and I can't advise you the number of them, she may  35 have done what's called the summary.  36 When you look -- My Lord, if you take a look at  37 any one of those, you will see that the right-hand  38 side is all -- everything that's there is in the  39 adaawk itself, which follows it immediately  40 thereafter.  In some cases she put headings, in other  41 cases she didn't, and in some cases she pulled out the  42 names of the crests and put them on the right-hand  43 side and the people's names and things like that.  In  44 some cases she did do that with the adaawk, but that  45 was an organization for counsel.  And it is now  46 interspersed within all of our organizational work  47 notes, work with the witnesses, et cetera, and I say 17100  Submission by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  that that's covered by privilege.  And it's not -- in  those summaries she does not say this is good or this  is bad or this is 5,000 years ago or any of that.  What she does is take the adaawk, reorganize them for  us and give them to us.  THE COURT:  Well, if we take an adaawk and make a -- what might  be an objectionable -- but for comparison purposes I  may be forgiven to say each adaawk resembles a card  out of a deck of cards.  Did she just distribute the  cards, or did she rewrite them, annotate them,  editorialize on them or comment on them?  MR. GRANT:  She distributed the cards, redistributed the cards.  That's primarily what she did in some cases, but the  bulk of that is in the Gisghhast master binder that  you have.  In some cases she rewrote them in that  form, that is putting the facts in the adaawk on the  right-hand side and pulling out key names.  In those  summaries, if we can call them that, she did not  editorialize or annotate, except to the extent that in  some she put headings, so that we could see that these  five adaawk all talked about this particular topic  area.  But these, as I say, are -- this was done to  aid counsel in how to handle and manage this vast body  of material and to coordinate our efforts with respect  to the trial, and it's not -- it's not at all like the  situation you face with Professor Galois, in which he  did a larger -- his own work.  He did his own work in  analyzing these for counsel, and then it was  compressed into the report that was before Your  Lordship, so that you could not -- there was no way  you could pull out from what he did in the earlier  drafts the segments that related to the report and  those that didn't.  It's not that situation at all.  THE COURT:  Well —  MR. GRANT:  It's not her work in other words.  THE COURT:  For purposes of argument, let's assume that in her  rewriting of the adaawk for the benefits of counsel  she was to say this relates to the house of  something -- of somebody, and it doesn't fit with the  adaawk no. 22, which I have distributed into the house  of something else.  Now, is there anything like that  in what she did?  MR. GRANT:  No.  That's not at all in this stage.  What it was  was compiling these.  Because, as you can see, My  Lord, for example, she's given evidence yesterday that  in dealing with the Fireweed clan in preparing her  report she had to look at the Frog -- the Raven 17101  Submission by Mr. Grant  1 clan -- some of those adaawk as well.  So it's where  2 she went through all of the adaawk and just said here,  3 this belongs in this file and this belongs in that  4 file.  5 THE COURT:  You see, I do not think an expert can be retained or  6 employed, write a bunch of material about the subject  7 matter, even for the benefit of counsel, and then  8 change her role, become an expert witness and file a  9 report on the same subject matter, and leave protected  10 the earlier material that she's done, if it touches  11 the substance of her evidence.  Because that's the  12 test that we have been applying in the Vancouver  13 Community College case.  I can ignore for the moment  14 the question of credibility, because I don't think  15 that's in issue here, but if someone has done  16 something for counsel which is privileged, and she  17 then becomes an expert on the same subject that she  18 has written on for counsel, then it seems to me that  19 it does -- it is caught by that language which touches  20 the substance of her evidence.  Is it -- but that's a  21 very preliminary view that I am struggling with.  22 Let me get something else from you.  Could this  23 material be disclosed to your friends without alerting  24 them or acquainting them with the distribution of the  25 material as made in counsels' brief?  26 MR. GRANT:  Well, to the greatest extent in that respect it has  27 been, because it's the adaawk.  You see, it's copies  28 of the adaawk, and the copies have been produced to  29 the Court, except for the ancient Fireweed binder,  30 have been produced in the order of Barbeau.  So to  31 that extent that material has been disclosed to them.  32 The material -- if I can just -- if I can just -- can  33 I have that please.  I'll just look at the exhibit.  34 You see, if you look at this Exhibit 1043, the  35 Fireweed binder, as the witness explained, you have  36 this kind of quoting and then pulling out of names.  37 That's -- there are -- I'm not going to say to the  38 Court there are no others, and I will be quite frank  39 about this.  I don't know exactly how many others  40 there are, but I do know this is the vast majority of  41 them, because this was the one that was done -- but  42 what this summary is is -- for example, in this one  43 she does not go on -- one of the versions to the  44 adaawk may say that the marriage of Ska'wo's daughter,  45 the different people came to -- the suiters came, you  46 may recall that adaawk, My Lord, where all these  47 suiters came.  In her summary she doesn't go through 17102  Submission by Mr. Grant  1 all of the suiters.  She just says that a number of  2 suiters were all rejected as unsuitable.  In other  3 words, she condenses it down to get to what she sees  4 as the points, and in that case in adaawk no. 1 she  5 pulls out the name of an artifact Gwisyeeni.  The name  6 Gwisyeeni is in the adaawk.  My friends, if they read  7 the adaawk, will find all of this information, but  8 this is what was hopeful in an aid to counsel.  9 THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Grant, how difficult would it be if I were  10 to at random pick an example, say the first witness in  11 the trial is Mary MacKenzie, Gyolugyet, and ask you to  12 let me look at that one, and see whether I think it is  13 properly allocated to counsels' brief, and whether  14 it's more properly classified as writings on the same  15 subject following within the Gawa rule?  How difficult  16 would that be?  17 MR. GRANT:  Well, if you are dealing with practical, logistical  18 matters, My Lord, if that's what you proposed, I would  19 have to contact -- communicate with my office, have  20 that -- I shouldn't say that file -- those files  21 relating to Mary MacKenzie couriered down to me and  22 review them, and pull all of that material out,  23 because, of course, it's interspersed with my notes  24 and other things, and pull out all of the material  25 relating to that.  And my difficulty right now is I  26 may end up coming back, after that's been done, and  27 say there is nothing in that file.  I don't know which  28 files all of these matters are in.  I recall, and in  29 fact I had duplicated yesterday, although I missed the  30 first page, and I was intending to provide it to my  31 friends today, there was similar summaries relating to  32 Suwiiguus, and I suspect that that's what would be in  33 the Mary MacKenzie file, and those I am giving to my  34 friends in any event.  They are exactly the same as  35 the ancient history of the Fireweed.  36 THE COURT:  I am not sure I follow that.  Why are you giving  37 them that one, for example?  38 MR. GRANT:  Well, I have prepared a document book supplementary  39 to the first one, in which there is -- because I --  40 for Your Lordship, and in terms of the nature of the  41 evidence, you know, this is something that the witness  42 will talk about -- talks about is Suwiiguus, but again  43 all it is is a summary of the adaawk.  I mean, it's  44 not anything -- it's no original writings of the  45 witness, other than the putting of titles on.  46 THE COURT:  Well, I think that to — to not to put too fine a  47 point on it, I think I should look at an example, and 17103  Submission by Mr. Grant  1 I still think that a random choice such as an adaawk  2 relating to a house such as Gyolugyet is as good a way  3 as any to satisfy myself and indirectly placate your  4 learned friend one way or the other.  This material  5 was written before she was asked to do an expert  6 report should or should not be produced, and I think  7 that's the best way we can handle it.  I don't know  8 any other way to do it.  9 MR. GRANT:  Well, as long as you appreciate what you will have  10 will be identical -- that is in the -- it will be the  11 kind of thing that you have seen in Exhibit 1043.  12 That's what I am referring to.  13 THE COURT:  Well, if there isn't anything that follows within  14 the --  15 MR. GRANT:  I guess —  16 THE COURT:   -- of what she described in her evidence in which  17 you read to me this morning, a different class or kind  18 from that, then I think that we'll have carried the  19 enquiries as far as we need to go.  But I guess the  20 next thing is can that be done between now and Friday?  21 MR. GRANT:  Well, I can -- my experience -- as my friends can  22 attest, my experience with couriers from up there is  23 sometimes it's two days rather than one day, but I can  24 immediately contact my office to bring down the  25 Gyolugyet file, and I can canvass that, and I will  26 advise -- I anticipate that there is nothing other  27 than this kind of thing, and if there is, I will, of  28 course, advise Your Lordship and provide a copy of it  2 9 to you.  30 THE COURT:  Well, maybe Gyolugyets not a good example.  Why  31 don't we ask your friends to suggest an example,  32 because Gyolugyet, as I have suggested, may not be a  33 useful one.  What can you suggest, Mr. Willms?  34 MR. GRANT:  And also some of them may have nothing in them.  I  35 just don't know.  36 MR. WILLMS:  My Lord, perhaps even Hanamuxw or Gwisgyen.  They  37 were adaawks told by those witnesses, a number of  38 adaawks.  They might be -- maybe Hanamuxw.  3 9 THE COURT:  Hanamuxw.  40 MR. GRANT:  Hanamuxw didn't talk -- I'm sure my friend means  41 Gwaans.  42 THE COURT:  Gwaans.  Is that satisfactory, Mr. Macaulay?  4 3 MR. MACAULAY: Yes.  44 MR. GRANT:  And I will have that file brought down, and I  45 endeavour to get it here as fast as I can.  4 6 THE COURT:  Thank you.  47 MR. GRANT:  Thank you. 17104  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 THE REGISTRAR:  May I remind you, you are still under oath.  2 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  3 THE REGISTRAR:   Would you state your name for the record  4 please.  5 THE WITNESS:  Susan Marsden.  6  7    CONTINUATION OF EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT:  8  9 Q   Miss Marsden, I would like you to just go to the map,  10 the creation of the Fireweed, and you described what  11 those names of the capitalized villages were.  Those  12 are the ultimate places of the migration shown on that  13 map.  Can you tell His Lordship -- if you don't have  14 to go to the map, that's fine.  Can you tell him what  15 those -- the names of the villages that are in small  16 caps are?  17 A   They are —  18 Q   What that reflects.  19 A   They represent the earliest villages recorded in the  20 Duff files and in the adaawk of those people who say  21 they arrived first in the area.  22 Q   And is the larger map referring to those people?  23 A   The larger map is the migration routes into the area  24 of those people.  25 Q   Okay.  Now, if you have your report in front of you,  26 Volume 1, page 27.  My Lord, as I indicated yesterday,  27 I was going to make some jump, and I would like to now  28 move to this time of the early years migration that  29 you are referring to, the original Northcoast peoples.  30 And you state on page 27 that:  31  32 "The Northcoast culture has at its heart the  33 merging of two distinct peoples, each with its  34 own powerful and ancient heritage.  From the  35 north, by inland routes, came the people of the  36 Raven, the Wolf and Eagle."  37  38 These groups you sometimes refer to in your report  39 as the northern inland peoples; is that right?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q  42 "Bringing with them a matrilineal system based  43 on the reciprocity of large kinship groups  44 paired through marriage, each with its own  45 spiritual identify and ancient heritage, and a  46 need for large exclusively owned tracts of  47 land." 17105  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2 And then you go on to say:  3  4 "From the southern coast, and the coast and  5 islands from the mouth of the Skeena and Nass  6 rivers, were peoples with a system in which  7 smaller kinship groups occupied villages  8 founded by their spirit ancestor and adjacent  9 or nearby territory, and established relations  10 with other villages primarily through marriage.  11 Common to both, however, was their sense of the  12 interdependence of people, spirit power, and  13 land, and the need to foster this  14 interdependence through culture.  Among both,  15 people identified themselves as a group in  16 terms of their kinship relationships, and their  17 shared relationship to a spirit power and their  18 land."  19  20 And this second group you sometimes refer to in  21 the section beginning on page 63 as the southern  22 coastal peoples.  Is that right?  23 A   That's right.  24 Q   Now, your description, without getting into the detail  25 right now, Miss Marsden, but your description of the  26 features of each of these groups, is this description  27 of these features something that you have gleaned from  28 your analysis of the adaawk and from the statements of  29 origin in the Barbeau files?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Now, I would like to go to page 28.  32  33 "In the ada'ox and other origin accounts of  34 Northcoast peoples, the trail back in time  35 leads inevitably to Laxwiiiyip, the great  36 plateau to the northeast, at the headwaters of  37 the Nass, Skeena and Stikine Rivers."  38  39 And that, if I may stop, is the area you were  40 referring to yesterday where the Fireweed was created?  41 A   The larger area considered to be Laxwiiyip, yes.  42 Q  43  44 "Or to sheltered coast and island settlements,  45 to the west and southwest, between the mouth of  46 the Nass River and Rivers Inlet."  47 17106  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  And there you are referring to your conclusions  out of the adaawk, is that right?  A   Yes.  Q   Now, the next statement is:  "Maps examined with a knowledge of the receding  ice age and consideration of the topography of  the great rivers leading into this area show  unglaciated upland areas along the Peace River,  which leads ultimately to Laxwiiyip on the  Upper Stikine."  And these are maps of deglaciation that you have  examined, and you have assumed them to be correct?  A  And statements by Fladmark.  Q   And statements by Fladmark.  A   Yes.  MR. WILLMS:  My Lord, perhaps the maps could be identified,  rather than just the maps that she looked at.  Where  are they, what are they, where can we find them?  MR. GRANT:  Q   As the ice receded --  MR. WILLMS:  Well, I have got an objection here, My Lord.  Sorry, I didn't say I object.  I will next time to  alert my friend.  THE COURT:  I think your friend is looking for a response, Mr.  Grant.  MR. GRANT:  I am sorry, My Lord.  I was -- I was thinking ahead.  But this -- I will deal with that, but it's all part  of this one section, and I think it becomes -- if my  friend gives me a moment, I will answer that point.  THE COURT:  All right.  MR. GRANT:  Q  "As the ice receded, travel was most likely to  have been on foot over such upland areas."  And then you say:  "The river valleys were unstable, partially  filled with melting glaciers, glacial lakes and  shifting river banks.  The highest montane  areas were still glaciated.  These areas were  also the ones most likely to support game.  Maps of the coast seen with the same trained  eye show us islands and inlets where human 17107  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 habitation was possible in the earliest period  2 of deglaciation, if not in refugia during the  3 ice age itself."  4  5 Now, once again, that last section is referring to  6 maps and material from geologists, persons such as  7 Fladmark; is that right?  8 A   That's correct.  That's a summary of Fladmark's ideas  9 on the subject.  10 Q   Now, the maps you referred to there at the end, and  11 the maps you referred to in that earlier sentence  12 about the receding ice age, which maps are you  13 referring to?  14 A  Well, as I said yesterday, I rely on Prest as the  15 definitive authority.  16 Q   And that is the map that is duplicated on your  17 Appendix 1?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Did you look at other maps other than Prest?  20 A   I think there are sketch maps in Fladmark, if I am not  21 mistaken.  22 Q   And that's the reference that you have given at the  23 bottom?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Now, you indicated yesterday that you worked with the  26 Fireweed and you worked back, and you -- from  27 Temlaxham to the -- to Laxwiiyip.  Is that right?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Now, did you go back beyond Laxwiiyip in the  30 description you gave yesterday?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Okay.  Can you --  33 A   I didn't go back yesterday, but I went back in my work  34 beyond yesterday.  35 Q   What you described yesterday.  I'm sorry.  Maybe  36 utilizing the map, where you need to, can you explain  37 to His Lordship what your process was, and what you  38 found in your analysis of the oral histories.  39 A   Okay.  40 Q   This is the map one that's in the map atlas as well,  41 My Lord.  42 THE COURT:  Yes, I got it.  43 MR. GRANT:   I think the only difference is that the script on  44 the left-hand side is along the top of your map one.  4 5    THE COURT:  Yes.  46 THE WITNESS:  A short overview of this, is it starts about  47 halfway down here where it says "The people of the 1710?  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Raven migrated".  I'll just go over each of the groups  2 briefly.  In the northern area consistently people say  3 that the first -- the first Raven people came from the  4 headwaters of the Nass, and these cross blue lines  5 indicate a possible route in, and that's why they are  6 crossed, they are not -- they indicate possibility,  7 not statements in the adaawk.  From the headwaters of  8 the Nass, the Raven clan move up along the Stikine and  9 settle at what's -- what later became the Tahltan  10 village of Telegraph Creek.  11 THE COURT:  Where is Telegraph Creek?  12 THE WITNESS:  Right in around —  13 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  14 THE WITNESS:  From there they — not necessarily exactly the  15 same time they spread north, north and west, and they  16 also not necessarily at the same time moved later down  17 towards the mouth of the Stikine River.  18 THE COURT:  What are these letters, "TRW"?  19 THE WITNESS:   Those -- I am going to come to those in a minute,  2 0 My Lord.  21 THE COURT:  Thank you.  22 THE WITNESS:  They also go down the Skeena River, and we have  23 accounts of those -- accounts of those are in my paper  24 that I will deal with after.  And the indications are  25 that they didn't come through the Skeena River area  26 around Gitsegukla and Hazelton there, but rather went  27 down further south and came along the Zymoetz River  28 and back onto the Skeena around -- just above Terrace  29 at a creek stream called Xsigalgiies,  30 X-s-i-g-a-1-g-i-i-e-s.  From there over time they  31 moved to the coast and to the mouth of the Skeena  32 River and to the coast.  33 Less well documented are the migrations of the  34 Raven down the Nass River, however, the Nisga  35 consistently say that the Raven clan came from the  36 headwaters of the Nass and down the Nass River.  37 The second clan in the north to come in, and they  38 say that in their adaawk, that they were the second  39 ones, established themselves on the Tuya, T-u-y-a,  40 River, and then became aware of the fact that there  41 were other people nearby, and began to associate with  42 the Raven clan among the Tahltan.  4 3 MR. GRANT:  44 Q   And in what area was that that they began to  45 associate?  46 A  Among the Tahltan.  47 Q   That would be in the area of Telegraph? 17109  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   The name of the village there was Tliedlin,  2 T-1-i-e-d-l-i-e-n, their original.  3 THE COURT:  But it's in the area of Telegraph Creek?  4 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  They also migrated down the Skeena River  5 establishing areas of residence, settlement areas  6 along the way as far as into the Wet'suwet'en, and  7 over to -- there the ancestor is, for example, the  8 Axtihix group among the Kitwanga.  9 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Madam Reporter needs a spelling for that.  10 THE WITNESS:  Maybe I should say Tenimgyet.  A-x-t-i-h-i-x.  11 Tenimgyet is T-e-n-i-m-g-y-e-t.  The last location for  12 them that I can document is the Gindoiks.  Gindoiks is  13 G-i-n-d-o-i-k-s.  But there are indications of a very  14 strong Wolf presence on the coast, but I haven't been  15 able to determine whether they were originally a  16 coastal people and became Wolves later, or whether  17 they are part of this migration, so I stopped it  18 there.  19 MR. GRANT:  20 Q   And that's -- just if I may just interject -- that is  21 the green arrow that goes down and ends partway down  22 the Skeena River on -- it's a green arrow on that map  23 atlas, My Lord.  24 A  A branch of these people also came through the Iskut,  25 Unuk River area, I-s-k-u-t and U-n-u-k area, and  26 established themselves in the Observatory Inlet,  27 Portland Canal, this whole large area here.  28 Q   That's the southern of those two split arrows, is that  29 right?  30 A   It's -- this whole area is one -- basically one group.  31 Q   Yes.  32 A   That's the northern peoples.  And then to the south  33 you have a much more -- you have a real sense of small  34 groups who identify themselves, not by clan, but by  35 their spirit ancestor, and this box here -- in this  36 box I have summarized --  37 THE COURT:  Under the heading "coastal people"?  38 THE WITNESS: That's correct.  What I referred to in my report as  39 the southern coastal people.  I didn't make a judgment  40 as to whether there were people -- in the origin  41 accounts they say we were always here.  I only take  42 this map as far as they say.  And others say they came  43 from the southern coast.  So these black lines  44 indicate either an original presence or a -- and/or a  45 migration north.  There is definitely some groups  46 migrating from the southern coast, but the other  47 groups state themselves as originals. 17110  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 One branch -- one of these southern groups, which I  2 deal with in my report, is the Somexulitx,  3 S-o-m-e-x-u-l-i-t-x, who have a large body of adaawk  4 on this migration.  They originated at Rivers Inlet,  5 and they called the place Owiikenox,  6 O-w-i-i-k-e-n-o-x.  And their adaawk tells of their  7 travels up the coast, and they hear of this area, and  8 people are afraid to go there because they say there  9 is a monster there, and they brave it and establish  10 themselves in the Kitimat inlet.  And they are the  11 founders of Kitimat, and they are the people who later  12 become part of the Eagle clan.  13 Another coastal people that I deal with in my  14 report, and which relate significantly to the Gitksan,  15 are the people of Ts'ooda that Thomas Wright discusses  16 in his evidence.  And they, according to the adaawk  17 themselves and the statements of origins and  18 statements of early village make-up, they migrated up  19 the Skeena River all the way to the headwaters and  20 even beyond -- they go beyond this map altogether, but  21 I have them stopping there.  22 The -- there are indications in some of the  23 earliest accounts of tremendous movement over large  24 areas of land while people were looking for land, and  25 periods of hostility in different places, and then  26 gradual settling down into these areas.  27 Now, the lines on the map, these lines and the  28 cross-hatching and the --  29 Q   Excuse me.  Just before you get to that.  I just want  30 to clarify, you have the black arrows going up from  31 the coast, which you indicate were Ts'ooda, but you  32 see there is one that's going up, it looks like it's  33 going up towards and into the Nass.  Down near the  34 bottom there, there is a black arrow as well.  Is that  35 part of that group or another group --  36 A  Well, as I mentioned before, there are a number of  37 small coastal groups that arrive in this time and  38 identify themselves by a spirit ancestor, and this --  39 this further migration up here is by one of those  40 small groups that identify themselves by the Beaver  41 crest, that S-T-S-O-O-L-T I mentioned before.  And  42 this is one of those exploratory migrations, as it's  43 told in the histories.  44 Q   And that's going -- that leaves the Skeena around the  45 Kitwanga Valley?  46 A   No, Kitsumkalum, and then goes up to the Laxwiiyip  47 area. 17111  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 THE COURT:  To the where?  2 THE WITNESS: Laxwiiyip area.  In the broad sense of the --  3 headwaters of the three rivers.  4 MR. GRANT:  5 Q   And that's the area where the arrows end from that  6 group?  7 A   Yes.  Before I get to the cross-hatching, the inland  8 peoples -- this -- sorry, I'll just backtrack one more  9 step.  This small black migration here is the Ts'ooda  10 group among the Gitksan on the Kispiox.  11 Q   That's the small black migration that --  12 A   It's just these three black arrows here.  13 Q   It goes off in the Kispiox area?  14 A   That's right.  15 Q   Okay.  16 A   These inland peoples were very difficult to document.  17 The adaawk start to fade out at this point, but there  18 are -- were influences in this area that could not be  19 accounted for by any of these other groups, and they  20 were variously referred to as the Frog and the Loon.  21 And as I mentioned earlier, the village, the Raven  22 clan village across from Temlaxham, which is called  23 Gwungadalkxw, G-w-u-n-g-a-d-a-1-k-x-w, were -- is a  24 translation for the people of the Loon.  And there are  25 other references to the people on the Babine Lake  26 being the people of the Loon.  And when the Fireweed  27 people moved to Temlaxham, they moved and relate to  28 the Ravens that they fought with, but also with  29 another people who are called a gentle people, who  30 were there originally, and that's what these arrows  31 indicate.  32 Q   And you are indicating there the arrows that are  33 underneath the box of inland people, the two sets of  34 green arrows?  35 A   That's correct.  They call them Gwigois, the gentle  36 people, they still call themselves that today.  37 Q   Who do they refer to?  38 A   The Babine Lake people.  39 THE COURT:  Where do you say on this map is Hazelton?  40 THE WITNESS:  Right in this area here.  41 THE COURT:  Thank you.  42 THE WITNESS:  The lines on the map -- when these groups are  43 discussing this time period in their adaawk, they  44 refer to a time when they are looking for land,  45 establishing themselves in locations.  Some of the  46 northern accounts specifically say they claimed a  47 river valley.  So what I did with this cross-hatching, 17112  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  and I indicated that this is not to be taken as a  specific statement of the exact land, I actually  wanted this as a more of a background, I am indicating  the areas that they inhabited at this time and claimed  as their own in this early time.  And to get these  areas I used the statements of where they ended up in  combination with the statements of land, ownership in  the Duff files in 1920, extracting the later arrivals.  And there were indications in accounts, that specific  indications that larger owned areas in early times  were given -- parts of them were given out to other  groups as they arrived.  So that was the logic behind  moving back to this.  The letters on them indicate "W"  for the Wolf, Eagle, "R" for the Ravens, "T" for the  Ts'ooda group, mixed with the Wolf, Eagle.  Where they  are mixed, you can see there is different forms of  territorial use.  There is the Raven and the Wolves  mixed, as well as the Wolves and the Ts'ooda people  who eventually -- the Ts'ooda people eventually also  became Wolves, and then you have the Ts'ooda people  with the Ravens and so on.  THE COURT:  Did you -- do you equate the inland people to the  Frog?  THE WITNESS:  It seems like there were two, the people of the  Loon and the people of the Frog, but it's the only --  it's the only indication of why that clan also uses  the term Frog to identify themselves.  The coastal Frog in a later period, which I will  come to later, call themselves Lax Se'el after a place  at the -- at the southern tip of Tlingit territory  near Tongass, there was a major migration from there  into the Tsimshian and Gitksan, and not -- where they  joined with other Raven houses, and at that time the  informants explicitly state that that's the origin of  the term Lax Se'el, in other words, to describe what  otherwise is described as the Genada.  THE COURT:  Lax Se'el is the name of a location near the mouth  of the Nass?  THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Just to the north of the mouth of the Nass.  THE COURT:  The end of that blue arrow?  THE WITNESS:  In this area, yes.  THE COURT:  Your blue is Raven?  THE WITNESS:  The colours are different on this map than that  one.  GRANT:  I believe the colouration was a drafting matter of  size.  The blue arrows are the people of the Raven.  MR.  THE COURT:  Right 17113  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  WITNESS:  Do you have the smaller map?  Unfortunately we  used a very close shade of green, you see, which makes  it quite confusing on this map.  You see, this is  supposed to be a different colour.  COURT:  That I take it to be the green of the inland people,  Loon or Frog or Lax Se'el.  WITNESS:  And then this green is the Wolf, Eagle.  COURT:  This green?  WITNESS:  Yes.  COURT:  All right.  Whereas in mine the Wolf, Eagle is --  oh, it's a green too.  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  A  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  I would just like to ask you a few specific questions  about the map, and then go into the body of your  report that deals with the topic briefly.  You have  indicated that the Ts'ooda group, that is the farthest  reach of the Ts'ooda group, the black arrows, they go  up to the north and then you stop them.  Why did you  decide to stop your arrows there and not go further?  Could I have a copy?  Certainly.  Because they go beyond the area that I am dealing  with.  Now, I would like to read your -- just refer to  paragraph five at the top of the -- and I think you  already indicated this is your writing and forms part  of your opinion.  It's a summary, yes, of --  You said paragraph 5?  The fifth paragraph.  It's the second full paragraph  in the second column.  "Neighbouring peoples"?  "Many adaawk".  Yes.  'Many adaawk describe the initial settlement of  the group in the Northcoast area as taking  place 'when the land was still young' when  there were no trees 'when it was like spring'  dating the arrival or the return of these  peoples during the retreat of the most recent  ice age some 9,000 to 10,000 years ago.  Into  this renewed land people returned from inland  areas to the north and coastal areas to the  west and south.  From the north came the people 17114  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  of the Raven, the Wolf and the Eagle.  From the  coast came peoples known by the name of their  spirit ancestors, peoples who merge with the  northern groups taking on clan names and  together evolving the clan and house system now  known on the Northcoast."  Now, those quotations about the descriptions, are  those quotations that you saw in adaawk or statements  of origin?  A   Yes.  Q   And is there any similar kinds of statements in those  adaawk that deal -- let me say the Ska'wo adaawk that  you were dealing with yesterday in your evidence.  A   No.  Q   Okay.  Is there any similar types of descriptions in  the adaawk relating to Temlaxham?  A   No.  By the time they start talking about Temlaxham,  it's a large well established community settlement  area.  Q   Okay.  A   In the ones talking specifically about Temlaxham, not  the founding of it.  Q   Okay.  WILLMS:  I just wonder if the witness knows where those  quotes were taken, which adaawk.  WITNESS:  I think —  GRANT:  Q   Yes, I will ask you that.  A   I think the evidence will as it unfolds.  Q   It's in your report?  A   There are quotes in my report, yes.  Q   Okay.  And some of them were taken from other earlier  adaawk you referred to in your report.  My Lord, at this point I would just like -- there  is an error I noted and meant to correct the first  day.  On page 29, fifth line down it says:  "Hagwilget  on the Skeena", and that should, of course, read  "Hagwilget on the Bulkley".  COURT:  Where is that?  GRANT:  Fifth line down on page 9.  WITNESS:   "Kisgegas on the Skeena".  GRANT:  Q   Sorry, it's Hagwilget on the Bulkley, and *Kuldoe is  on the Skeena?  A   Yes.  Q   And Kisgegas is on the Babine. 17115  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   So it should read Tahltan on the Skeena, Kuldoe on the  3 Skeena, Kisgegas on the Babine, and Hagwilget on the  4 Bulkley.  5 Now, on the map atlas you have -- let me ask you  6 this.  Why did you conclude that these adaawk, this  7 series of adaawk you dealt with relating to these  8 people, referred to the pre-dated -- and I am talking  9 about your sequencing -- pre-dated the creation of the  10 Fireweed adaawk, Ska'wo adaawk you were dealing with  11 yesterday?  12 A  Well, I think I answered that.  That the Ska'wo adaawk  13 doesn't have the same references to being the first  14 peoples there.  15 Q   Okay.  16 A   To it being their migration there.  17 Q   Is there any reference in these adaawk to people  18 already being on the land when these people -- in  19 these early adaawk?  20 A   It starts with established villages.  21 Q   In which one?  22 A   The Ska'wo adaawk.  23 Q   Okay.  I am talking about these early adaawk, the ones  24 that you have just been referring to this morning on  25 the large map.  26 A   Oh, no.  No, they say -- for example, in the accounts  27 of the Tuya River people, they say "When the land was  28 still young, and we believed ourselves to be alone".  29 THE COURT:  What do you mean by Ska'wo?  What's the definition  30 of Ska'wo?  31 THE WITNESS:  That's the female ancestors of the Fireweed clan,  32 alternately described as Gawa or Goa.  33 THE COURT:  Are Ska'wo and Gawa interchangeable?  34 THE WITNESS:  The names -- the name Gawa in Kispiox, you mean  35 the surname Gawa now or --  36 THE COURT:  No, no, in the terminology you are using.  They are  37 interchangeable?  38 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  Goa is the way they usually put it if its a  39 Tsimshian informant, and Ska'wo is more if you have an  40 inland informant, a Gitksan informant.  41 MR. GRANT:  42 Q   So in looking in the adaawk of the ancient clans of  43 the Fireweed, you may see the name referred to in both  44 ways, but they are referring to the same ancestor?  45 A   Yes, the ancestors of the Fireweed.  46 Q   Okay.  Now, in the adaawk you are dealing with in this  47 area, did the people discuss the terrain that they are 17116  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 dealing with, the nature of the land?  2 A  Well, I think if you -- do you want to look at a  3 specific one for example?  4 Q   Yes, certainly.  5 A   On page 8.  6 Q   Page 8 of your report.  7 A   Yes.  In this report that I was speaking about that  8 came up the -- and founded Kitimat.  If you look on  9 page 79, about a third of the way down the paragraph:  10  11 "At that time when Waamis first settled there  12 the Kitimat valley was all gravel banks along  13 the river which was visible far up the valley.  14 Waamis named it Kaklaleesala meaning gravel  15 banks."  16  17 And in reading Claque's accounts of the  18 deglaciation in that area, there was a tremendous  19 amount of gravel deposited in that particular Kitimat  20 area.  And in the other -- this is from the Gordon  21 Robinson's account -- there are other earlier recorded  22 accounts by Olson on the Haisla people, and they --  23 they describe the valley as completely treeless and  24 with a mossy covering on the ground.  And that's  25 consistent with silviculturalist's description of the  26 first vegetation.  They say that after deglaciation  27 there was a period when the trees didn't start to grow  28 for awhile.  29 Q   Just go to page 26 of your report.  There is a quote  30 there, or there is a reference there which says:  31  32 "In the beginning there was nothing but water  33 and ice and a narrow strip of shoreline ..."  34  35 And you refer Bella Bella.  What is that reference  36 to?  37 A   That's the beginning of a coastal Gispewudwada adaawk  38 recorded by Boas, and it -- it accounts for the origin  39 of the killer whale group of the Fireweed clan.  And  40 that's the first line of it.  41 MR. WILLMS:  Perhaps my friend could indicate what tab that is  42 at in the materials that he has got.  4 3    MR. GRANT:  44 Q   This Bella Bella adaawk that's —  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   Is that from one of the adaawk that's in the published  47 version of Barbeau -- 17117  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   No, in the Boas.  2 Q   It's in Boas?  3 MR. WILLMS:  Well, My Lord, there is a lot of Boas.  I would  4 like to know if they haven't marked it -- I thought  5 this would be marked, because it is referred to in the  6 report, but if it's some other -- which Boas, where?  7 It's not particularly helpful to read the quote in  8 Bella Bella underneath, and then have my friend say  9 Boas who wrote a great deal.  I would like to know  10 where that comes from.  11 MR. GRANT:   I will determine the specific reference and provide  12 it to my friend.  He will have ample opportunity to  13 refer to it before his cross.  14 Q   Now, I would like you to just refer to page 30.  And  15 this is after you described what you were -- what you  16 have now described as reference to the map.  You say  17 in the last paragraph:  18  19 "With the migrations outlined above, the  20 founding of the Northcoast area is complete.  21 Migration into this area at a later period if  22 it does occur, is limited and could only have  23 consisted of small groups who are absorbed into  24 those already here and who did not  25 significantly change the culture.  The present  26 Indian occupants of the Northcoast area are the  27 descendants of these early peoples.  Not only  28 did they people this land, but they provided  29 the essential aspects, the substratum as it  30 were, of what we have come to know as the  31 Northcoast culture."  32  33 And is that your conclusion with respect to this  34 era?  35 A   Inasmuch as I also looked at all the later eras, yes.  36 Q   In other words, you didn't come to these conclusions  37 just dealing with these?  You looked at everything  38 before?  39 A   That's correct.  There are still periods of movement  40 within this broad Northcoast area, but there are no  41 elements, large significant bodies of people coming in  42 with the totally different culture from outside of the  43 area indicated on that map.  44 MR. WILLMS:  That's after 10,000 years ago?  45 MR. GRANT:  We are going to come to the years.  46 MR. WILLMS:  My Lord, I would like to make a note.  The witness  47 made a statement that this at this time was -- if I 1711?  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 can say it this way, all crystallized.  I would like  2 to know the times so that I can make the note right  3 now.  It would be very helpful.  4 MR. GRANT:  Well, My Lord, the whole question, as you asked  5 yesterday, is the whole question -- this witness's  6 evidence goes to the sequencing of the adaawk, and  7 there are years that are referred to in the tops of  8 the report and with respect to these maps.  I am going  9 to deal and have the witness deal with those dating,  10 but it's not convenient for me to do that now, because  11 that's an entire part of her evidence.  I would like  12 to deal with all the dating at once.  13 THE COURT:  Wouldn't it have been the simplest thing to say  14 "yes" or "no" to what Mr. Willms enquired about?  She  15 said it all crystallized as of this time.  No  16 subsequent massive new cultures that moved into it.  17 All Mr. Willms asked, was that since 10,000 years ago,  18 and if the answer is yes, that's simple, if the answer  19 is no, then maybe it becomes more complicated and it  20 should wait until it's developed.  If that's what it  21 is, it is simple to say yes if that's the answer.  22 MR. GRANT:  23 Q   Do you wish to broach the question about whether --  24 when you say that the --  25 A   Could I have the question again exactly please.  26 Q   Well, the question, as I understand the query of my  27 friend, is when you are referring to the fact that  28 this era -- in your report you say -- with the  29 migrations outlined above, those are the ones that you  30 referred to on the large map, the founding of the  31 Northcoast area is complete.  And as I understood my  32 friend, he asked, are you saying that in this area --  33 in this era -- when you say in this --  34 THE COURT:  You say that the founding of the northwest coast  35 area is complete.  What do you mean by that?  Complete  36 when?  37 THE WITNESS:  If you look on page 27 for this period, I have put  38 10,000 to 7,000.  If you look at the deglaciation map,  39 the areas deglaciate over somewhere between 10,000 and  40 8,000 BP.  There is a 2,000 year span, in terms of  41 when a land was recently deglaciated.  I have  42 stretched it to 7,000, just to be conservative.  At  43 this end of that period, I would say at the end -- by  44 7,000 BP these people have arrived, and that's the  45 summary that I am referring to on page 29 or 30.  4 6    MR. GRANT:  47 Q   Now, I would just like to move -- just very briefly 17119  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  refer you to some key aspects of each of these groups  that you reflect. The first part on -- the first  group you deal with on page 31 is the first group you  dealt with in the explanation of the map, and that is  the northern inland peoples, the Raven clan. And you  state that:  "The first people to arrive in the northern  inland areas were the people of the Raven.  They arrived at the great plateau of Laxwiiyip,  and from there they moved unhindered down the  Stikine, Nass and Skeena rivers to the coast."  THE COURT:  Can I stop you there.  When you say northern inland  people -- look at the map.  Is that something  different from inland people?  THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Inland peoples are in the south.  THE COURT:  You are talking about, on this map, the inland  people you are talking about here, then, being Ravens  are --  THE WITNESS:  The northern inland peoples would —  THE COURT:  Blue arrows on my map?  THE WITNESS:  The people of the Wolf, Eagle, and the people of  the Raven.  THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  Thank you.  MR. GRANT:  Q   Now, you go on to quote from certain of the adaawk,  and one of them you say was James Tait, and in this  excerpt he states that:  "The ravens all belonged to the Tahltan River or  some place.  There a woman had three  daughters."  And then he goes on to describe the events.  Now, that is one of your sources with respect to the  Raven?  A  Well, it's important to go on to say that -- the fact  that the line is passed on through the female is --  indicated here by the use of the female as the  founder.  "Then one Raven daughter went away to settle at  Nahlin, another at Tlepan.  Hence arose the  three Raven clans.  Since they all arose from  sisters they all helped each other quickly in  time of war." 17120  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2 Which indicates the connection between peoples  3 related in the matrilineal manner and so on.  4 Q   Okay.  You then go on on page 32 to refer to Agnes  5 Hudson, and you state that:  6  7 "Were it not for Agnes Hudson of Gitsalaxsw, we  8 would know little of this group.  She was  9 married to Satsan, a leading chief of the Raven  10 people there, and from him she learned their  11 history.  She was interviewed in the 1920's,  12 her husband having died an old man years  13 before.  Through the memories of these two  14 people was unlocked a whole period of  15 Northcoast history."  16  17 You then go on to refer to Agnes Hudson.  And  18 where was that -- where is her interview or her  19 narration found?  20 A   It's in the microfilm BF 43 one.  21 Q   Now, you state and you summarize on 32 and 33 that:  22  23 "According to Agnes Hudson, Satsan and a number  24 of related Houses migrated via the Copper River  25 and over to the Skeena where they explored,  26 established villages, and acquired territory.  27 According to the other sources (Tsimshian  28 files: Duff) members of this group migrated  29 further and eventually reached the coast where  30 they established themselves at Gitsiis,  31 Gitzaxhlehl, Gitwilgyoots and finally Gitxahla.  32 This group was among the earliest on the lower  33 Skeena.  They are consistently the earliest  34 group on the accounts of the founding of the  35 villages among the Tsimshian.  They are, with  36 the early Wolves, the first Tsimshian.  37 Tlingit, Tahltan, Haida and Fireweed incursions  38 later added to this original people on the  39 lower Skeena, and they themselves later joined  40 the great melting pot on the coast."  41  42 And then you quote Agnes Hudson's description of  43 the migration of this group.  Is that right?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And she refers to -- that:  46  47 17121  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  "Group that came down from the Kispayaks  Genedas. And in their wandering down the river,  in the mountains, they came across the Raven  emerging from the lake.  They would come in  their wanderings to a huge lake which they were  unable to cross.  They lived here for some time  and made a huge raft to go across the lake."  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  As a result of your readings, can you indicate to  His Lordship what general area this huge lake is they  are talking about?  A   That's this route here somewhere in this area.  They  come down Copper River and then come back to the  Skeena.  Q   And that would be the area to the south of what is now  Kitsegukla?  COURT:  There is no large lake in that area, is there?  WITNESS:  Not now, no.  GRANT:  This is the area, Your Lordship may recall of  Kitsegukla Lake, and then going through around there,  the Copper River area, south of the mountains.  COURT:  McDonnell Lake or McDonnell Lake.  GRANT:  McDonnell Lake would be south of Hudson's Bay  Mountain.  It's in that general area, eastern part and  then Kitsegukla Lake.  Q   Now, is there any parallels between that and the Prest  map that you observed, in terms of where Prest shows  the deglaciation?  You can look at the smaller one if  you wish.  A   I am not sure exactly what you --  Q   Well, the Prest map that you have had duplicated here  shows deglaciation around in the area of 9.5,000 years  ago.  He has these large ice caps shown there.  A   Uh-huh.  Q   And then the inner dots inside that are in the range  of 8.5,000 years ago.  If you follow the Skeena on  that map, on the Prest map it appears to be covered by  that deglaciation in the 9.5 and the 8.5,000 year ago,  and it goes south of the Skeena.  A   That's correct.  COURT:  On the Prest maps the white is ice, is it?  GRANT:  No, the blue would be the glaciers and the dotted  lines are a time scale, My Lord.  Like 10.5 would  refer to 10,500 years ago where the ice was at that  time, then as it recedes you see a 9.5, and that would  be how the ice receded at 9.5,000 years ago.  There is, in the case of the ice cap in blue that 17122  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 is around the Skeena, Nass River, just inland there,  2 you see there is an ice cap there, and the outer  3 dotted line around the outside of that ice cap is  4 9.5,000 years ago.  Then you see there is a dotted  5 line within the blue, and that's 8.5,000 years ago.  6 So you can see the recession of the ice depicts the  7 recession of the ice by thousand year segments.  8 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, I just don't understand that, because the  9 legend shows the white area to be ice margin  10 positions, or does that mean that just the dotted  11 lines are ice margin positions?  12 MR. GRANT:  The dotted lines.  I do agree, My Lord, that the  13 blue -- this is a copy of the Prest map, isn't it?  14 THE COURT:  You say the blue area are continuing ice, but the  15 8.5 goes through the middle of that largest one.  16 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  17 THE COURT:  Which suggests that the ice margin extended between  18 8.5 and 9.5.  19 MR. GRANT:  This is before present.  So that 9,500 years ago the  20 ice margin was where that outer dotted line was.  A  21 thousand years later, 8 and-a-half thousand years ago  22 it receded to the 8.5 line, and it appears that Prest  23 for convenience seem to generally use a 9.5 and  24 actually depict ice caps at 9.5,000, and they are the  25 blue.  26 THE COURT:  All right.  Do I take it the white was the extent of  27 the ice before it started to recede?  28 MR. GRANT:  Yes, you can see around the green, for example, in  29 that Yukon -- you can see the dotted line right around  30 that is 13.5,000 years ago.  So 13.5,000 it appears  31 that all of the white would have been covered as well.  32 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Take the morning adjournment now.  33 MR. GRANT:  Certainly, My Lord.  34 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court stands adjourned for  35 a short recess.  36  37 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A BRIEF RECESS AT  38 11:15 A.M.)  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 17123  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO BE  A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE  PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE BEST OF MY  SKILL AND ABILITY.  LORI OXLEY  OFFICIAL REPORTER  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 17124  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. GRANT.  5 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT CONTINUED:  6 Q   Could you refer to your report page 36, and I am still  7 referring here to a description of -- by Ms. Agnes  8 Hudson.  And at the top of that quote first full  9 paragraph she says:  10  11 "Ksagaldies was the name of the valley and the  12 river... that's K-S-A-G-A-L-D-I-E-S ... from which  13 they came.  That is why the Ganeda...  14 G-A-N-E-D-A ...use it as their hunting  15 territory."  16  17 Now, I am just going to refer you to Exhibit 646.  In  18 fact, I will refer you to 9-A and ask, because you can  19 see the underlay, if you can indicate for his lordship  20 where is a Ksagaldies on that map where you are  21 talking about.  The Skeena River is here.  22 A   It's a stream or creek that runs into the Skeena in  23 this area.  24 Q   You are referring to it just at the bottom of the  25 Luulak territory; is that right?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Now, you then go onto refer on page 37 -- I'm sorry,  28 at the top of page 37 you state that:  29  30 "Comments made by Agnes Hudson and others to  31 Barbeau at this time..."  32  33 This is at the time of the Duff files and the Barbeau  34 files?  35 A  Agnes Hudson.  36 THE COURT:  Where did you go, page 37?  37 MR. GRANT:  38 Q   Page 37.  39  40 "...indicate that the Satsan group stopped at  41 Hagwilget and that they are related to and share  42 the name Gubihlgan with the Wet'suwet'en Gilseyuu  43 clan."  44  45 G-U-B-I-H-L-G-A-N.  The Wet'suwet'en Gilseyuu is  46 G-I-L-S-E-Y-U-U.  Now, have you seen reference to the  47 name Gubihlgan among the Gitksan or Tsimshian in the 17125  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 adaawk?  2 A   Yes.  Gubihlgan is a chief among the Kitselas people.  3 Q   And you also state that the informants:  4  5 "...indicate that their travels up the Skeena from  6 Xsigaldiies..."  7  8 And that's where you were referring to near where the  9 Copper River joins the Skeena.  10  11 "...took them as far as a lake called  12 Taxgitkomgan... T-A-X-G-I-T-K-O-M-G-A-N ...just  13 below Porcupine Creek."  14  15 Now, that -- this is information you obtained from  16 your analysis of the Barbeau microfilm and the Duff  17 files?  18 A   This particular paragraph is just a summary of what it  19 says.  20 Q   Yes.  You then refer to Fred Johnson.  You had an  21 opportunity to review the commission evidence of a  22 number of those witnesses who gave commission evidence  23 in the case; is that right?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Before the completion of your report.  One of them was  26 Fred Johnson, the late Chief Lelt.  And you refer  27 to -- you summarize what he has said in his evidence  28 and that he -- then you state -- before you state  29 that, you say:  30  31 "Lelt is closely related to Gubihlgan at  32 Gitsalasxw, and was the most upriver branch of  33 these Raven people below Hagwilget at this time."  34  35 Then you refer to Fred Johnson's own evidence and the  36 fact that:  37  38 "He holds the name Lelt and speaks for Haa'kxw,  39 Luulak and T'axtsox."  40  41 H-A-A, apostrophe, K-X-W is Haa'kxw.  Luulak is  42 L-U-U-L-A-K.  T'axtsox is T, apostrophe, A-X-T-S-O-X.  43  44 "This happened 'in the beginning when people were  45 first searching for land'."  46  47 Is that what Lelt himself said? 17126  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  THE COURT  40  MR. GRANT  41  Q  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Yes.  And then you summarize his evidence.  In this summary  you've taken out the questions; is that right, from  the transcript?  That's right.  And you refer to the description of Lelt.  "After the flood, they waded through the water  where they had landed on their rafts.  There was  a rocky area where there were young mountain  goats.  They named it Gwunwakx... G-W-U-N-W-A-K-X  ...after those goats.  A song (which he sang)  tells of this event."  He then describes in the next paragraph:  "The Skeena River was a small river then.  As the  years went by it got bigger and bigger.  They  drifted down from somewhere around Blackwater  when they were first starting to search for land.  They knew what was going to happen.  They heard  of other lands, other places.  That's why they  set out to put their power into other lands."  He refers to:  "The wilnat'ahl travel together, not too many, not  too few, a strong healthy group.  Later others  followed."  Then he says halfway through that paragraph:  "They left Blackwater.  T'elgamuux settled at  Kispayaks.  Lelt, Haa'kxw, Luulak and Tax'ts'ox  settled near what is now Gitwingax.  Others went  further to Andudoon.  When they came to the land  and found food, they had to make a totem pole."  :  That's A-N-D-U-D-O-O-N.  "Lelt and the others were the first there.  Axti  Hix... A-X-T-I, one word, H-I-X ...he's Gitwingax  as well, he came here a long time ago as well.  They came here the same as Lelt, after the  flood."  You can go  there is another reference there. 17127  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2 "It was open just like in the spring time."  3  4 Q       "They looked for a good place to grow, looking for  5 good land."  6  7 Now, I just wonder if you can connect what Lelt is  8 talking about to what you've described earlier as the  9 Satsan if there is a relationship here.  10 A  Well, the part that Agnes Hudson talks about she  11 starts in the Kispiox area.  In her comments also says  12 that they established in the Hagwilget area and come  13 around here to Xsigaldiies, and then back up here  14 that's also in her interview.  And then Fred Johnson  15 takes that same group further north to Blackwater  16 which is somewhere in here to the Blackwater area and  17 then has Delgamuukw settling at Kispiox and so on.  18 And then if you look at the related houses of Satsan,  19 they are clearly stated as having the same myth, the  2 0 same adaawk, they migrate from Andudoon at a later  21 date and establish at Gitsiis.  So that gives you the  22 flow of this group.  23 Q   That's G-I-T-S-I-I-S.  You then state on page 39 going  24 back really to Ms. Hudson's reference to the lakes  25 that:  26  27 "The fact that Gisga'ooxs represents the furthest  28 upriver settlement below Hagwilget of these early  29 Raven people, combined with that of the route  30 taken by the Satsan group over vast lakes, seems  31 to indicate an era in which the Skeena and  32 perhaps the Copper River still contained large  33 lakes resulting from glacial melting.  The  34 descendant of the early people at  35 Skwoolekstaat... S-K-W-O-O-L-E-K-S-T-A-A-T  36 ...(Wilson Creek) claim that the river there was  37 small enough to erect a fish weir from one side  38 to the other, and Lelt also refers to the  39 river being small indicating, perhaps a dammed  40 lake upriver."  41  42 Now, your reliance on the descriptions of the  43 geographic -- what's going on geographically is based  44 on what you've read from the adaawk and the Duff files  45 and your other sources that you've referred to  46 yesterday; is that right?  47 A   In terms of the lakes and the narrow rivers? 1712?  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   Yes.  2 A   Yes.  And also Lelt himself and other people in  3 Kitwanga refer to that quite commonly.  The family of  4 Tenimgyet also.  5 Q   And when you refer to Skwoolekstaat, Wilson Creek, is  6 that the place where the Tenimgyet family has their  7 smokehouse today that you are referring to?  8 A   Now?  9 Q   Now.  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Now, I would like to move you to the north on which  12 you refer to "The Wolf and Eagle Clans" which you  13 reflect on your map.  You state at the very beginning  14 that:  15  16 "The northern inland Wolf people arrived in the  17 Tahltan area at a somewhat later date than the  18 Raven people but 'when the land was still young  19 and they believed themselves alone'."  20  21 And you refer to Emmons.  22  23 "They became known among the Tahltan as the  24 Talakoten."  25  26 In this reference you are describing that early -- the  27 migration where the arrow starts from the people of  28 the Wolf Eagle?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And you've concluded on page 41 the middle paragraph  31 that:  32  33 "The Wolf (Eagles) people are an important group.  34 Their migrations peopled many villages with both  35 Wolf and Eagle Houses and played a significant  36 role in Northcoast history."  37  38 And that is your conclusion from your reading of these  39 original sources?  40 A   Yes.  They are the foundation, as I say, as part of  41 the Wolf clan and also part of the Eagle clan.  Part  42 of the foundation.  43 Q   Of the Gitksan?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   I would like to turn you to page 43 where you refer to  46 Chief Simediik:  47 17129  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  "...the leading Eagle chief in Gitwingax (in  1923), the Wolves and Eagles at Gitwingax were  originally one group.  The family of Lax Gibuu [Wolf] (of Tenimgyet)"  Now, can you explain that brackett "(of Tenimgyet)",  is that yours or is that from his, do you recall?  A   This is a direct quote.  Q   This is a direct quote.  "...joined with the Lax Xskiik [Eagles]; they were  only a few.  They helped each other.  The Lax  Gibuu could not marry a Lax Xskiik here, only a  Ganeda.  That family was not quite Lax Gibuu,  only half.  The Lax Xskiik and Lax Gibuu here  were named differently:  Lax'nadze, only one name  for the two.  [This term is in the old language,  it has the same meaning as Lax Xskiik, in the  old, Gitskan language long ago.  Lax'nadze meant  Lax Xskiik."  And did you come across the word Lax'nadze say in  other references as well?  A   The word Nadze was a chiefs name among the Tsetsaut  people who inhabited the area around --  THE COURT:  I don't think madam reporter has got that spelling.  MR. GRANT:  L-A-X, apostrophe, N-A-D-Z-E.  Nadze is N-A-D-Z-E.  Now, I would like to refer you to page 61 and 62 and  also to -- and this is the section in which you  summarize -- you refer to the -- it starts on page 46,  my lord, and it is the chapter referring to "The  Cultural and Socio-Political Influences of the  Northern Inland Peoples".  You go on to describe that.  And then at page 61, 62 you state -- you are here  referring to the Socio-Political influences of  these -- the Wolf Eagles and the Ravens here; is that  right?  A   Yes.  Q   And you state:  "In summary then we find among these northern  inland peoples a socio-political system of  matrilineal exogamous clans designated as the  People of the Wolf, the Raven and the Eagle.  Among the Raven clan, common ancestry and a sense  of Raven as their founding spirit was a part of  their concept of clan.  From the earliest times, 17130  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  among the Wolves, groups of incoming peoples of  separate origins merged but their individual  identities were kept alive partly through the  Wolf-Eagle distinctions and, also, partly through  their ownership of separate tracts of land after  which they named themselves (eg. Tlepanoten,  Tagicoten)."  T-L-E-P-A-N-O-T-E-N and T-A-G-I-C-O-T-E-N.  Where are  those areas?  A   Those are in what is now Tahltan.  Q       "In a more complex and later era chief's names  also kept these distinctions alive."  You are making a reference to something that occurred  later and is an influence here; is that right?  A   Yes.  Q       "These people settled in paired exogamous clan  groups at common village sites on the banks of  major rivers near canyons and/or productive  fishing sites."  Are you now talking about in this period of time?  A   Yes.  Q       "Adjacent or very close to their villages were  large tracts of lands, which bordered the river,  where they hunted and trapped."  And again you are talking about this period of time?  A   Yes.  MR. GRANT:  It may be just for clarity, my lord, that that  paragraph starting:  "In a more complex and later era"  should be a parenthetical marked in brackett at the  top of page 62.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. GRANT:  Q   You then state:  "The Raven people brought with them a sense of the  importance of their origins, their history and  their spiritual identity, which they imparted to  the other groups they met, and which is essential  to the yukxw... Y-U-K-X-W we know it today.  This suggests that some early form of this aspect  of feasting was in existence in these early  times." 17131  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 And you found these indications from these early  2 histories; is that right?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   You then go on commencing on page 63 to talk about the  5 "Southern Coastal Peoples".  And you refer to -- just  6 a moment.  I'm sorry, Ms. Marsden, there is one note  7 that I have.  I referred you to references in your  8 report to Satsan by Agnes Hudson and to Fred Johnson,  9 Lelt's description of Gubihlgan.  Since the reading of  10 your -- writing of your report you had an opportunity  11 to look at portions of evidence given by other chiefs  12 in the court case; is that right?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And you've had an opportunity to look at the evidence  15 of Stanley Williams?  16 A   Part of it.  17 Q   Part of that evidence.  And does Stanley Williams make  18 reference as well to this group in his evidence?  19 A   He, in two places, talks about the same incident where  20 there is land transfer between Luulak and Gubihlgan  21 who are relatives because one buries the other and  22 that is that same area at Xsigaldiies.  23 Q   I refer you on page 72 just to be sure this is the  24 reference, one of the two references you are referring  25 to where he starts talking about Luulak and Dax Juxw.  2 6 A   Dax Juxw, yes.  27 Q   And that's spelled D-A-X, one word, J-U-X-W second  28 word on that reference.  That's for your reference, my  29 lord, that is at page 72 of the Commission Evidence of  30 Stanley William, volume 1, page 72, line 21 through to  31 page 73, line 46.  In the cross-examination it is  32 raised at volume 5, page 371, line 34 to page 372,  33 line 45.  34 Now, in that description there he talks about the  35 death of Gubihlgan, a Gitsalasxw chief and how the  36 people of Luulak helped that -- they buried that chief  37 and were given territories?  38 A   That's right.  39 Q   Now, is there a relationship other than the fact that  40 they helped bury that chief from your -- from the  41 material you've got, was there any ties historically  42 between Gubihlgan and Luulak?  43 A  Well, they are part of that same migration of Satsan.  44 They are relatives from that migration.  And when one  45 house can't afford to bury their dead then a related,  46 closely related house buries them.  And there is a  47 reference to Xsigaldiies. 17132  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   Okay.  Mr. Williams says here on page 73, line 18, 19  2 after the describing that feast he says:  3  4 "This is when they..."  5  6 that is Gubihlgan's house,  7  8 "...gave the territory of Xsi Galdii Ess to Luulak  9 and Dax Juxw."  10  11 I have given those spellings before.  Now, on pages 63  12 through 77 of the report, my lord, Ms. Marsden deals  13 with the Ts'ooda people.  I just want to make  14 reference to you refer to Thomas Wright's evidence on  15 page 64.  This was his commission evidence that you  16 had an opportunity to review prior to preparing your  17 report?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And he says there in the quote that:  20  21 " 'Wiik'aax came from Skeena's beside  22 Prince Rupert, and then he travelled all the way  23 up to the Yukon...It's about ten miles (down  24 river) from the Tyee Station...It was long before  25 the white man came to that city...That bird sent  26 Ts'ooda up the Skeena River.  Ts'ooda, he was the  27 first one...The big bird from the sky told them  28 to come up the Skeena River and there will be  29 seven houses and they will be called villages.  30 'My sister will come and tell you what to do' . "  31  32 How does this relate to where you were talking about  33 Ts'ooda on the map?  34 A   You mean you want me to place the beginnings?  35 Q   Where Skeena, yeah, City is.  36 A  Well, Ts'ooda, the people who share in the myths with  37 Ts'ooda in another file also take it a little further  38 back to Porcher Island where they say it was their  39 ultimately original village called Tsa'os, T-S-A,  40 apostrophe, O-S.  And where Thomas starts is at Skeena  41 City which is just after you start going up the Skeena  42 on the railway track.  It was one of the original  43 railway stations.  It was planned to be a fairly large  44 community.  It did have a few white people living  45 there for awhile.  And then he continues on with his  46 description.  47 Q   Can you refer to Exhibit 1042, tab 11.  Subsequent to 17133  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 the preparation of your report and your review of  2 Thomas Wright's evidence, and in fact in your capacity  3 working at the museum in Prince Rupert, did you come  4 across this document?  5 A   Yes.  We were -- I was researching the history of the  6 Grand Trunk Pacific Railway in Prince Rupert and along  7 the Skeena River.  We asked for the files from the  8 archives in Ottawa.  They sent us this statement in  9 core basically establishing the Skeena City Station.  10 Since then it has dwindled down to a sign.  It is now  11 called Skeena.  12 Q   That is a sign on the railway track.  But this  13 document helps you to place it?  14 A  Well, when he was first referring to that he gave  15 other indications of where it was which I have  16 included in my report, but we were never able to  17 locate Skeena City exactly until --  18 MR. GRANT:  I would ask that document be marked as the next  19 exhibit, my lord.  20 MR. WILLMS:  For the truth, I take it, my lord, as being a  21 government document?  22 THE COURT:  Yes.  23 MR. GRANT:  For the location of Skeena CITY.  24 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 1042-11.  25 MR. WILLMS:  I thought it was perhaps the origin of the Grand  26 Trunk clan.  27 THE COURT:  That would be a different kind of bird.  28  29       (EXHIBIT 1042-11:  Skeena City Station Site Document, Tab 11)  30  31 THE COURT:  Prince Rupert is just outside of Winnipeg?  32 MR. GRANT:  Government documents are so precise, my lord.  33 Q   If you could look at tab 10, that was tab 11.  I think  34 I referred on the record that I may have referred to  35 it as tab 12, but it is tab 11.  This extract here, is  36 this from the Barbeau files?  37 A   Yes.  This is from the -- yes.  38 Q   Is it another -- that is from the microfilm?  39 A   The first two pages are from the typescripts from his  40 notes and the third page is Duff summary of the same  41 information.  42 Q   And does this refer to Ts'ooda, this particular  43 extract?  44 A   Yes.  This accounts for the section of the migration  45 to the Kispiox, Kispiox River.  4 6 Q   I will return to that in a few moments, Ms. Marsden.  47 I just wished you to identify it.  Now, later on in 17134  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 your -- you make reference on page 72 to one of Boas'  2 accounts.  You refer to the creation -- I'm sorry, it  3 starts on page 70 where you say:  4  5 "The ada'ox of Ts'ooda and Haalus tells of the  6 origin of copper and possibly of oolichan fishing  7 technology among the earliest coastal groups.  8 Ts'ooda and Haalus were both supernatural beings,  9 the latter the slave of the former.  They were in  10 competition first for a beautiful princess and  11 then, in tests of their powers."  12  13 And here you are recording what the adaawk of Ts'ooda  14 and Haalus tell?  15 A   Yes.  It is a long adaawk.  16 Q   Now, if you have that bindder in front of you, the  17 Exhibit 1022, can you look at tab 8 and just tell us  18 what that is in relation to this?  19 A   This is -- this is from Tsimshian myths from Boas.  It  20 is the account of the myth that I am referring to, one  21 of the accounts of the myth that I am referring to in  22 my report.  23 THE COURT:  Number 51 or the top part as well?  24 THE WITNESS:  Oh, just number 51, yes.  25 MR. GRANT:  Now, can you turn to page 3303 of the Boas.  You  26 have page 303, my lord?  2 7    THE COURT:  Yes.  2 8    MR. GRANT:  29 Q   At the bottom there it starts, and this is part of  30 this long adaawk; is that right?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And it says:  33  34 "When the elder girl was married..."  35  36 This is, I think, a daughter of Ts'ooda if I follow  37 this right.  38 A   Yes.  39 Q "...she told her husband that her father, Tsauda,  40 told her of a good copper in the Copper Creek at  41 the head of Skeena River.  Therefore the  42 prince called his three young men to go with him  43 to see the good copper at the head of that creek;  44 and when they were going in their canoe up the  45 river, they smelled sweet-smelling scents; and  46 when they went farther up, they smelled still  47 more fragrant odors; and they went on and on, and 17135  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 the odor was sweeter than ever."  2  3 Then they go onto describe how they located the --  4 they located the copper; is that right?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And on page 305, the middle paragraph down there is a  7 description as follows.  It is the first full  8 paragraph, my lord, I should say.  9  10 "They threw the copper into the fire to be  11 burned, took the bark of a dried spruce tree and  12 started a large fire and the live copper was  13 melting; and when the fire had gone out the pure  14 copper remained in the ashes like a pole.  They  15 saw that the copper was very good and soft.  16 They took it and put it into a bark bag and then  17 they took the prince's body down to the canoe."  18  19 Now, from your reading of adaawk and the origins is  20 copper of significance amongst the Gitksan and the  21 Northwest cultures?  22 A   Copper in the early adaawk is highly prized.  They  23 talk about copper, copper canes, primarily copper  24 canes, and just copper itself.  They refer to, as this  25 one does, a source of copper at the headwaters of the  26 Skeena and the other major source of native copper up  27 in the Tlingit territory further north the Copper  2 8 River up there.  29 Q   And from what you understand that is where copper is  30 located?  31 A   These are the two sources of native copper that have  32 been identified by Church.  33 MR. WILLMS:  I object, my lord, this witness doesn't have any  34 qualifications on copper.  And when you read the  35 adaawk the adaawk doesn't say they found copper at the  36 north end of the river.  It says that a salmon turned  37 into copper.  It is a very long, long bow for this  38 witness to say from this adaawk and the dip into the  39 geology that she doesn't know anything about that  40 there was copper up there from the adaawk and that she  41 knows about it from the geology.  Now, just on the  42 geology aspect I object, my lord, but the adaawk  43 itself when you read it doesn't support this.  4 4    MR. GRANT:  45 Q   You've read geological accounts and you have assumed  46 they are correct and they are consistent with the  47 location of copper? 17136  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yes, the Sustut River.  2 THE COURT:  But is Mr. Willms right when he says that the copper  3 that the adaawk uses came from the salmon.  4 MR. GRANT:  5 Q   I am going to have the witness explain this further  6 because this is not the sole source of this  7 information I take it.  This isn't the sole reference  8 in terms of the location of copper in adaawk?  9 MR. WILLMS:  It is at the top of the page, my lord, 305.  10  11 "And behold the salmon was transformed into  12 copper."  13  14 That is the copper that they melted, the salmon that  15 was transformed into copper.  16 THE WITNESS:  I think this is a good example of where you can  17 pull out information that is perhaps to the non-Indian  18 mind tainted by supernatural accounts which we can  19 still find information that deals with real places and  20 real things however differently it may be described.  21 THE COURT:  Well, I suppose it is common enough knowledge that  22 copper is found in many locations throughout the  23 northern part of the province, that wouldn't surprise  24 me.  What the meaning of it is that the story seems to  25 be dealing with copper that came from supernatural  26 sources in that matter.  27 THE WITNESS:  Can I address that?  2 8 MR. GRANT:  2 9 Q   Just one moment.  30 Now, this Boas' adaawk we refer to here is one  31 reference to copper from the oral history; is that  32 right?  33 A   The whole thrust of this adaawk deals with copper.  It  34 starts at the mouth of the Nass.  There is a  35 supernatural incident.  The copper flies north to the  36 Copper River among the Tlingit and the descendents of  37 Ts'ooda go up the Skeena River to the headwaters of  38 the Skeena and they also find copper.  Those are the  39 only two sources found to date of copper that can be  40 released from the stuff that is in in the ground  41 without modern methods.  It is the only two sources  42 located by contemporary geologists of that type of  43 copper.  44 MR. WILLMS:  Well, I object, my lord.  The Globe & Mail this  45 morning talked about copper up north all over the  46 place.  This kind of evidence is inadmissible.  47 THE WITNESS:  It's in Church 1973. 17137  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  MR.  WILLMS  2  MR.  GRANT:  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  THE  COURT:  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  MR.  GRANT:  22  23  THE  COURT:  24  25  26  27  MR.  GRANT:  28  THE  COURT:  29  MR.  GRANT:  30  31  32  33  34  35  THE  REGIST  36  37  38  39  MR.  GRANT:  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  :  I cite the Globe & Mail 1989.  If Mr. Willms wants to take the stand, I would be  happy to cross-examine him on the Globe & Mail 1989.  My lord, all I am saying is this witness can only in  terms of the finding of copper that can be acquired  without smelting, this witness isn't qualified as an  expert and I don't portray her as such.  In order to  link matters together I am asking her -- as we've done  since last October, my lord, I am asking her about  matters that she assumes to be true.  Well, there is no harm in her describing the adaawk.  I think that Mr. Willms' objection is well-founded.  This adaawk doesn't prove that copper was found at  that location or could be found at that location.  It  doesn't take much imagination to construct a scenario  which would explain what's happened here, but there is  no real profit in it.  The adaawk says what it says.  We don't really need to get into a division, do we, on  whether there is copper in the north or what this all  means at this point?  No, I don't think we do.  And my friend -- I have  not --  Your friend objected because the witness was  purporting to give an opinion on the finding of copper  based upon this adaawk in the north, and that's as far  as it goes.  Okay.  This doesn't prove it.  Now, I would refer you to page 71 of your report.  Maybe I can ask have that tab 8 marked as the next  exhibit.  It would be the Boas' account of the Ts'ooda  and Haalus gen -- Ts'ooda and Haalus Adaawk.  It would  be an extract from Tsimshian Myths by Boas.  It would  be Exhibit 1042-8.  RAR:  Exhibit 1042-8.  (EXHIBIT 1042-8: Tsimshian Myths by Boas, Tab 8)  On page 71 you refer to Edmund Patalas account.  Who  was Edmund Patalas?  He was Tsimshian.  And this is an account from the Barbeau-Beynon  records; is that right?  Yes.  And he states: 1713?  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  "Now for ages there was a great bright copper peak  which stood on the top of this high peak and for  ages it had always been said that anyone that  would touch it would always be wealthy...Ts'ooda  stood up in his canoe with his throwing stone and  then heaved it and it went up and up and broke  the copper which broke off and hovered in the sky  for a while.  Then hermaphrodites [Ganootset] who  lived close by came out and concentrating their  wishes and spitting out at the same time, kept  muttering to this huge copper hovering in the  sky, 'Go into the direction of the Gidagans.'  Then the huge cloud of copper went off into the  direction of the north wind and went to the  Gidagans and that is why there is so much wealth  between the Ts'ihlget (Chilkat). T-S, apostrophe,  I-H-L-G-E-T, Chilkat C-H-I-L-K-A-T.  That is  where the copper landed."  Now, do you know where the reference that is to the  Chilkat, do you know from the reading of this adaawk  and others where they are referring to?  A   Yes.  Q   Okay.  A  Well, everybody knows that -- anybody who works in --  among the Tlingit knows where the Tlingit people got  their copper.  They got it at Copper River.  Q   And just so we are clear because there is the Copper  River that is the Zymoetz.  A   No, the Copper River among the northern Tlingit.  MR. GRANT:  Now, do you know this area on the Sustut -- I'm  sorry, this area on the Upper Skeena where there is  copper located, do you know which area that -- is that  within the Gitksan area to your knowledge?  MR. WILLMS:  Is it the Sustut?  THE COURT:  No, I think your friend corrected himself from the  Sustut to the Skeena.  MR.  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Yes.  The adaawk say it was on the headwaters of the Skeena.  It was in the statements of Church that the headwaters  of the Skeena got refined down to the Sustut.  Church, this is the geologist that you've referred to?  That is correct.  Now, what I would just like to ask you now is can you  refer with reference to Exhibit 646 as to where you  are talking about? 17139  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  THE  COURT  7  MR.  GRANT  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  MR.  GRANT  19  20  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  GRANT  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  In this area up here.  You are indicating the area in the upper --  Wait a minute.  There is so many layers on this.  If you want to the go back to the --  Right up in here.  :  This is on the Sustut?  That is on the Sustut.  But originally there was to be an appendix to my  report outlining the opinions of experts in that field  to include the rational for locating it on the Sustut.  Okay.  And for reasons beyond your control that  appendix was unable to be done?  That's right.  That appen --  But the adaawk themselves take it to the headwaters of  the Skeena.  :  Okay.  I would like to move to the Somexulitx.  This  is the group that you talk about from the coast  starting on page 78.  It is S-0 --  :  You will have to spell that.  Yes.  S-O-M-E-X-U-L-I-T-X.  You have already described  as a one -- another group of the coastal people.  I  believe you've already referred us to the description  given in the Robinson oral history on page 79 where he  describes "the Kitimaat Valley was all gravel banks"?  Yes.  Then following that on page 79 I will just -- you  start by saying that a similar -- sorry, on page 78 at  the top:  "A similar merging of inland and coastal cultures  took place at Klaxgyels... K-L-A-X-G-Y-E-L-S  ...(in the Lakelse area)...  L-A-K-E-L-S-E  ...where a southern group from Owiikenox...  O-W-I-I-K-E-N-O-X ...met and joined with a group  of Wolf (Eagles) from the Skeena near Lakelse  river.  Their ada'ox as recorded by Gordon  Robinson, and published as 'The Founding of  Kitimaat', tells of the departure of Waamis...  W-A-A-M-I-S ...and a small group of his relative  from Soo-ma-halt near the head of Owiikenox Lake  (Rivers Inlet)"  Soo-ma-halt is S-O-O-  O-W-I-I-K-E-N-O-X.  -M-A—H-A-L-T.  Owiikenox is 17140  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Now, you quoted that reference to the gravel banks on  2 page 79.  And then you say -- sorry, then Mr. Robinson  3 goes onto say:  4  5 "Some time after his camp was well-established  6 Waamis was walking along the river and noticed a  7 small tool which had been washed ashore by the  8 river.  He decided to see where the tool had come  9 from and after travelling several days up the  10 river he found a group of Tsimshian people who  11 had come overland from the Skeena Valley and who  12 were camped beside the river...They were happy to  13 become part of the Waamis' people."  14  15 Now, is that kind of a -- what does that -- does that  16 kind of a description in an oral history, does it  17 assist you in any way?  18 A   It's fairly common that people who come from different  19 origins and are living -- for example, again on the  20 Tuya River they say the same thing that the people  21 down river from them saw a piece of wood that had  22 obviously been chipped off floating down river.  That  23 was how they knew that somebody lived to the north of  24 them, and then again here it is the same.  It is like  25 a literary device to indicate first contact between  26 peoples who aren't related.  27 Q   Does it assist you in placing the ordering of the  28 adaawk or oral histories when you see that kind of  29 reference?  30 A  Well, it allows me to know that those groups are  31 meeting for the first time, that is one of the  32 indications.  33 Q   Then you go onto say:  34  35 "According to Gordon Robinson, the Soomahalt...  36 S-O-O-M-A-H-A-L-T ... of Waamis.. .  W-A-A-M-I-S  37 ...did not belong to any clan then, but their  38 descendents are Eagle today."  39  40 Now, what does that information assist you in  41 determining?  42 A  Well, that is an example of the coastal peoples they  43 came with a name like Somexulitx and no clan identity  44 and later on when they merged with other groups, they  45 took on a clan identity, in this case the Eagle.  In  46 some rare cases one group can become members of two  47 separate clans, but that's an exception. 17141  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   Now, then you go onto talk about the culture and  2 socio-political influences of the southern coastal  3 groups as the next section and on pages 93 -- I'm  4 sorry, I -- yes, 93.  You talk about the northern  5 inland influence.  Then you go on:  6  7 "But it was the southern coastal people's belief  8 in the importance of this identity as a  9 socio-political factor that, when added to these  10 common aspects of ada'ox and crests, sparked  11 their evolution into a more complex form.  For  12 them one's existence as human is determined by  13 this identity.  Indeed, as Thomas Wright's  14 ada'ox..."  15  16 This is his description on his commission evidence; is  17 that right?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q "...indicates man is not man complete until he has  20 been helped by his power.  Without one's power of  21 identity one cannot function as a socio-political  22 entity."  23  24 Then you go onto say:  25  26 "But it is among the Gitksan, Tsimshian and  27 Nisga', located between the homelands of the  28 northern and southern peoples, that the ada'ox  2 9 and crest evolved into the more complex form  30 known today.  In the fixed and unchanging ancient  31 coastal village, one's identity was a constant:  32 power, group and place were one.  But with  33 movement and migration a group's identity changed  34 to include places journeyed over, places lived,  35 new powers and perhaps new kin.  Such movement  36 and migration took place only where there was new  37 land to be settled.  In the earliest ada'ox that  38 speak not only of place of origin, but also of  39 migration, the migration is described simply."  40  41 This is your conclusions and your opinions on  42 migrations and the socio-political influence at that  4 3 time?  44 A   Yes, this is the information.  45 Q   Could you return to tab 13 of Exhibit 1042, please.  46 That is Exhibit 1022-13, "Time-Line with  47 Socio-Cultural Overview".  Now, what you have is you 17142  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 refer to the summary of "Northern Inland Peoples" page  2 61, 62 and then you say "Plus", and these other  3 references are to other socio-political  4 characteristics and cultural characteristics that are  5 referred to in the report?  6 A   Yes.  I just summarized straight out of the report.  7 Q   Okay.  And at this early  --at this early period you  8 find -- you find indications in the adaawk of all of  9 these features?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Of the society?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And then you go to the southern coastal peoples and  14 you refer -- you find those categories that you have  15 listed under southern coastal peoples there?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And that's where you then you refer as you refer on  18 page 93 that these two forces came together with the  19 Tsimshian, Nisga' and Gitksan?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   The final reference on this whole section is on page  22 97 you state with reference to crests:  23  24 "The use of crests then, apart from their role as  25 encoded history, can and does become a highly  26 complex system showing kin relationships, a  27 system including both the broader and narrower  28 focus.  One is bonded forever with those with  29 whom one shares ancient ancestry, in a greater or  30 lesser way with specific Houses, depending on the  31 time depth of separation and the extent to which  32 the groups have participated together in history  33 or shared settlement areas over time.  The  34 existence of the crest system of the Northcoast  35 peoples indicates the need to identify relatives  36 in a highly complex society for whom the very  37 fabric of that society and all aspects of its  38 social and political organization are economy are  39 based on kinship."  40  41 These are your conclusions based on the adaawk and the  42 material you've read, and also your knowledge of how  43 the society operates today?  44 A   Yes.  That Gubihlgan, Luulak account from Stanley  45 Williams is a good example.  46 Q   Okay.  Now, just one point, yesterday you mentioned  47 that the utilization of crests on house fronts, you 17143  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 find the first indications of that with the creation  2 of Fireweed?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And yet here you are talking about crests here.  What  5 is your reference to crests here referring to?  6 A   The founding ancestor is the crest.  7 Q   And that would be such as the Raven and those  8 references that you have on the map and in these  9 groups; is that right?  10 A   That's right, the Bullhead in Satsan, for example.  11 Q   Yes.  And Ts'ooda in the Ts'ooda people?  12 A   That's right.  13 MR. GRANT:  My lord, it may be a convenient time to stop.  14 THE COURT:  Thank you.  15 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until 2  16 o'clock.  17 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:30)  18  19 I hereby certify the foregoing to  20 be a true and accurate transcript  21 of the proceedings herein to the  22 best of my skill and ability.  23  24  25  26 LISA FRANKO, OFFICIAL REPORTER  27 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 17144  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED AFTER LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT)  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  THE COURT:  All right, Mr. Grant.  As I said once before, never  get into the court room before 2:00 o'clock.  MR.  GRANT:  Q  Can you refer to your report, Volume 1 of your report,  page 110, Miss Marsden.  On page 110, just to put you  in context -- put His Lordship in context here, you  have described this morning these events of the first  migrations into the area, that's the subject of the --  this court action, and then you -- yesterday you  talked about the creation of the Fireweed.  And the  ordering is that the first arrivals occurred first,  and then the creation of the Fireweed occurred second.  Is that correct?  A   That's correct.  Q   And yesterday you described your findings relating to  creation of the Fireweed, and you ended that  discussion with the people moving to Temlaxham from  Laxwiiyip.  Now, I am now turning to what you  discussed relating to Temlaxham, starting on page 110.  And you state:  "At Temlaxham a people was founded in the  fullest southern coastal sense, but, unlike the  other groups we have discussed; it was not a  House or a village that was founded here but a  clan.  Here we find a wedding of the two  cultures.  As the Fireweed clan, the southern  coastal culture comes into its own right within  the overarching northern inland system."  Now, what do you mean by "a clan was founded  here", when you use that word "founded"?  A  Well, the normal southern coastal creation adaawk deal  with a House being founded, and the House represents  the spirit ancestor and identifies the group.  But in  this case, in my opinion, because of the contact with  the northern peoples who have the concept of clan,  what is founded -- what is created is a clan with  several Houses, which become branches of the clan, and  when they move to Temlaxham, this -- the development  of this group constitutes the founding of the clan.  They are created in the north, but they don't become  established in the fullest sense until they establish  themselves at Temlaxham and are there for awhile. 17145  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  COURT:  When you say southern coastal, you mean Skeena,  lower Skeena, or do you mean lower Vancouver Island?  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  GRANT:  Q  :  This range here.  That's what you are calling southern?  :  Yes.  Thank you.  :  I don't go beyond Rivers Inlet.  I don't either.  A  A  Q  That's between -- from Rivers Inlet north to the mouth  of the Skeena you were indicating on the map?  Would  that be approximately the area you are referring to?  Yes.  Well, it starts to change a little south to  that.  Okay.  Now, you then go on in the balance of that  paragraph to describe what you have just summarized.  Going to page 111.  "Just as the essence of Gitksan culture  crystallize at Temlaxham with crest, ada'ox and  territory emerging as the manifestation in the  world of each wilnat'ahl's spiritual, animal  and human identity, so also at Temlaxham the  law and the feast took on their essential  nature for the Gitksan."  And that's a conclusion you have arrived at from  your reading of the -- your reading of the oral  histories?  The events that take place at Temlaxham.  "The fundamental principle of law, respect for  all forms of life, was established in the days  of Temlaxham is clear from a number of ada'ox  that span the many centuries of peace,  stability and prosperity that came from the  fulfillment of this principle.  These ada'ox  speak of events that disrupt this peace,  through disregard for the law, and of the  disastrous consequences that follow."  Now, you suggest there that the spanning of time,  as you have on your map, at Temlaxham is a great  length of time.  Why do you say that, from your  reading of the adaawk and the oral histories?  The  time that people are there. 17146  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  A  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  19  20  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  GRANT  23  24  THE  COURT  25  MR.  GRANT  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  GRANT  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  GRANT  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  THE  COURT  46  47  Temlaxham is described -- probably, if you were going  to take one particular settlement area anywhere in the  adaawk, Temlaxham is consistently described as a place  where they lived in peace and plenty, where they had a  large number of people, and where they were -- where  they were there for a long time.  Okay.  Now, in the last quote I have said there you  refer to certain adaawk that speak of events that  disrupt this peace, through disregard of the law, and  of the disastrous consequences that follow.  Which  adaawk or oral histories are you referring to there?  The first event is the mountain goat adaawk, and the  second one is the Mediik, and then the third one is  the one that leads to the final dispersal, which is  the disrespect for the fish.  Okay.  Can you look at Exhibit 1042, which is the  Gisghhast ancient history of the Gisghhast binder.  And I am just going to refer you initially to your  chart, the ancient history of the Gisghhast where you  group these.  Where --  It's about eight pages in before the front tab, My  Lord.  It's this.  Yes.  Do you have that?  It's before the tabs.  I am in the wrong book.  Exhibit 1043, adaawk summaries.  Yes.  Thank you.  It may be worthwhile to mark that.  Now, here you've  just -- can you just point out for His Lordship which  adaawk you are now referring to as the three major  ones, which grouping of adaawk.  Well, after the first group of events, which we have  discussed already, the one horn mountain goat at  Temlaxham and then the Mediigimtsaawee'aks.  M-e-d-i-i-g-i-m-t-s-a-a-w-e-e apostrophe a-k-s.  And then the final one, the disrespect for the fish is  the great snowfall and the dispersal.  And the Mediigimtsaawee'aks, is that the same as  the -- is that another name for the Mediik adaawk?  Yes, it is.  I have put there the origin of the Mediik  crest.  Okay.  :  Did one of the earlier witnesses describe the --  describe an adaawk where the supernatural bear  destroyed the village at Temlaxham? 17147  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 MR. GRANT:  I believe that was described in the evidence of Mary  2 Johnson, yes.  3 THE COURT:  Is that what the adaawks say, that the bear  4 destroyed the village?  5 THE WITNESS:  Well, the words for bear, Lik'insxw for grizzly  6 bear, L-i-k apostrophe i-n-s-x-w, and '01, which is an  7 old word for just the ordinary bear, and Smex --  8 THE COURT:  How do you spell that?  9 THE WITNESS:  Apostroph 0-1 for — that's the old word, and  10 Smex, S-m-e-x.  But the Mediik, as I was saying  11 previously, the Mediik is the name of a supernatural  12 being that takes the form of a bear, and it has its  13 own name.  And whenever the Mediik is referred to, its  14 clearly understood that it's a crest figure that has a  15 supernatural element to it, and the event that took  16 place at Temlaxham is described that way.  17 THE COURT:  Is it described that this supernatural bear  18 destroyed the village?  19 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Waged destruction upon the village.  It  20 doesn't make it clear whether the entire population  21 was devastated.  22 THE COURT:  Thank you.  2 3 MR. GRANT:  24 Q   That would be reflected from your chart in the adaawks  25 at tabs 15, 16 and 23?  26 A   I think it's 14, 15.  Oh, you are right.  27 THE COURT:  It looks like 15 and 16 to me.  28 THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry, he was right.  2 9 THE COURT:  Thank you.  3 0 MR. GRANT:  31 Q   Now, the -- just for your reference, My Lord, the  32 mountain goat adaawk is described in the evidence, the  33 commission evidence of Martha Brown.  Of course you  34 didn't see all of that commission evidence, but that  35 is in evidence.  Also referred to in the commission  36 evidence of Stanley Williams, and the Mediik adaawk  37 has been given in the evidence of Mary Johnson.  38 Q   Now, you go on in your report, Miss Marsden, to  39 excerpt certain portions of adaawk in the pages  40 following up to page 114, and talk about the mountain  41 goat adaawk.  And then you say at the top of page 114:  42  43 "Many centuries later, the Temlaxham again  44 neglected to follow the ancient laws.  In the  45 ada'ox of the Mediik disregard for the laws  46 concerning the treatment of fish bones lies at  47 the heart of another disaster." 17148  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  And then you quote from Walter Wright at the  bottom there, and about five lines down you say:  "Yet so far into the past had faded the precepts  of the days of the Goat Feast that none  reproved nor warned the maidens of their  violation of 'The law of the Wild Creatures'."  Now, the goat feast, is that a reference to  mountain goat adaawk?  A   Yes.  Q   Okay.  And this reference -- excerpt from Walter  Wright, is that from the "Men of Mediik" and the "Wars  of Mediik"?  A   Yes.  Q   Okay.  Now, I would like to refer you to Tab 26 in  Exhibit 1042.  And these are your notations regarding  certain events, is that right?  A   Yes.  Q   I would like you to go to the fifth -- the sixth page  with a heading "Chronology of events in Men of Mediik  and Wars of Mediik".  THE COURT:  What tab is that please?  MR. GRANT:  Tab 26 of Exhibit 1042, My Lord.  That's the  compilation.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. WILLMS:  My Lord, this document was delivered on Friday, and  I object now, if my friend is going to start leading  the witness through it.  It's -- it's obviously not an  opinion, or not the facts upon which the opinion is  based, elsewise my friend would have delivered it 60  days ago.  So in my submission the witness should give  the evidence out of her report, and we don't need to  take up any time going through this.  It's  inadmissible.  It wasn't disclosed in time.  COURT:  Is it different from what's in the report,  additional to what's in the report?  GRANT:  This -- I will ask the witness a question with  respect to it.  Yes.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  I am just referring here to "Chronology of events in  Men of Mediik and Wars of Mediik".  Where is that  information from?  All I have done here is to itemize the events that are  covered in this -- in "Men of Mediik" and "Wars of 17149  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Mediik", and indicate how they describe the passage of  time between the events.  THE COURT:  Well, you said Tab 6 of 1042?  MR. GRANT:  No, Tab 26.  It's the very last tab.  THE COURT:  I suppose that makes a difference.  MR. GRANT:  And it's the sixth page in.  That's where I — and  it's a three-page document entitled "Chronology of  events and Men of Mediik and Wars of Mediik".  Q   "Men of Mediik" and "Wars of Mediik", that is the —  Walter Wright's adaawk that he gave to Robinson that I  referred you to yesterday?  Yes.  It's exhibit -- it's an exhibit that was put in the  evidence of Mr. -- of Dr. Daly, I believe.  And where  it says, for example, "mountain goat adaawk", that  refers to where it is told in the "Men of Mediik"?  Yes.  The "Men of Mediik" starts with the mountain  goat adaawk.  It doesn't go back to the creation of  the Fireweed.  And then under that you have "(generations)".  Is that  the terminology in "Men of Mediik" and "Wars of  Mediik"?  Yes.  So this is just your listing of the events described  there, and the terminology they use for the  differences?  That's correct.  And the "Men of Mediik" he gets  into -- I'm sorry, in "Wars of Mediik", which I  haven't done here, he gets into the same kind of  passage of time indications.  Okay.  Well, Mr. Willms, if this is just a summary of "Men  of Mediik", which can't be a surprise.  We have been  hearing about the "Men of Mediik" since this trial  started.  Is there any objection --  WILLMS:  The surprise is this.  This witness was -- the  evidence was disclosed from this witness, the opinion  report was disclosed back in '87, and it's disclosed  as a chronology.  It's supposed to describe the time  span.  There is no indication in the report, if you  follow through the report, of items like this.  I  mean, there is nothing that leaps out from the report.  And if there is, I'm sure my friend would take us  there, rather than to these very useful "summaries".  But these are not summaries, My Lord.  These are brand  new to assist the witness in adding time depth to the  oral histories, and we have never seen them before.  A  Q  A  THE COURT  MR. 17150  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  When you read her report, there isn't leaping out  at you the great generations between the mountain goat  adaawk and the Mediik adaawk.  Now, perhaps somewhere  in there, if you looked long enough and hard enough,  and you were a specialist assessing the adaawk, you  would find that, but here what the witness is  purporting to do is to put a bunch of -- if I can put  it this way, it's like building a sandwich, and she's  got all of the slices of bread.  That's been disclosed  in the report.  Now she is putting the meat into it,  but she is putting the meat in right now.  The meats  not in the report.  To get the meat, you got to go  read the adaawk and pick out what she's picked out in  this summary.  I don't know when she made this  summary, whether it was yesterday or two years ago.  My friend didn't ask that question.  But whenever it  was made, whether it was two years ago or two days  ago, My Lord, this is opinion.  This is part of her  opinion.  It says how she chronologizes, how she puts  the time.  Now, she should go to her report and say where  that comes out of her report, in my submission.  My  friend shouldn't be able to back door opinion evidence  by disclosing it the day before the witness takes the  stand.  :  Well, does the report not disclose that item six on  this summary or chronology and be fixed by one method  or another, 3,500 BP?  Does the report indicate that  in any way?  :  Just a moment.  :  I suspect that's a constant figure taken from the  evidence that you --  :  That date of 3,500 BP, that range, you have heard  evidence about that from Dr. Gotsfeld and Dr.  Matthews, and it is going to be something that you  yourself -- argument will be presented on it.  I am  sure my friend will resist strenuously, and you will  come to a conclusion on it.  It is a building block.  This exhibit — this is Exhibit 898, Tab 2.  I think  it was -- this is the "Men of Mediik".  And what the  witness -- and I will put to the witness the "Men of  Mediik", and I am sure she will be able to indicate to  Your Lordship each place -- if that's what we have to  do -- in an exhibit that my friends have had and have  heard about for two years, each place where it says  "generations", "many years", "many centuries".  It is  an aid.  It is an aid to assist in moving this 17151  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  evidence through.  There is no surprise here.  There  is no surprise at all, if my friend has read "Men of  Mediik" and "Wars of Mediik", except that he may have  not liked some of the sentences, and she is putting a  focus on where they make a time reference that he may  not like, but that is, of course, subject to cross.  He can do what he wants with it.  That's -- that's  what this document is.  THE COURT:  Well, it —  MR. WILLMS:  All I can say, My Lord, is that if you took this  chronology of events in "Men of Mediik" and tried to  follow through Miss Marsden's report, you would get  lost in three pages.  You would not be able -- it just  does not work like that.  The report doesn't work like  that.  You can't follow it like that.  And for my  friend now to reorganize the report and then put the  ham in the sandwich, in my submission, that changes  the opinion.  THE COURT:  I think it's the other way around.  I think you have  had the meat all along.  MR. GRANT:  That's right.  THE COURT:  Extracted by the pieces of bread on either side.  It's a multi-layered sandwich of course.  But of course, My Lord, this is not a chronology of  the report.  The witness has described -- this is a  chronology of the "Men of Mediik", which is one of the  principle adaawks upon which the witness relies.  I think there is some unfairness here, but on the  other hand I think that the "Men of Mediik" has been  with us since the start of the trial, and the -- I  don't know whether the witness's report talks about  chronologies.  It's called historical culture -- I  don't know if it talks about chronologies, but  certainly the organization of the report starts with  the earliest days and proceeds in a time -- in a  matter of time sequence by heading, certainly by  subject matter, does it not?  MR. GRANT:  Well in fact —  THE COURT:  -- cultures, the regional northcoast people, and  then it goes to the -- the two cultures merge at  Temlaxham, then the rise and trade, the trade wars and  slaves, and Legyeex is mentioned there.  We know he  was in the last century.  It does seem to proceed in a  chronological way, Mr. Willms.  I think that it would  have been better to have this earlier, but I am not  sure that there is a seriously unfairly prejudicial  result to allow the witness to summarize the  MR. GRANT  THE COURT 17152  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  chronology in this way.  I think he may proceed.  MR. WILLMS:  If I can just say one thing.  I am looking through  the index of the "Men of Mediik", and the index of  events in "Men of Mediik".  The language is completely  different in most cases.  There are -- there is no 500  BP in "Men of Mediik".  I don't know where the witness  got that.  I know now where she got the 3,500 BP.  COURT:  I don't see the 500.  WILLMS:  Well, it's on the next page, My Lord.  It's  conveniently located down the margin after a period of  time on page 2 of this.  COURT:  Mine says 2,500.  WILLMS:  Yours says 25.  COURT:  Number 17?  WILLMS:  Yes.  That's 2,500.  Oh, well, you see, mine was  even less convenient than yours, My Lord.  I suppose  we will find 500 further along.  COURT:  No, I don't think we do.  I think that's all we get.  WILLMS:  There are 27 items under "Men of Mediik" before we  get to "Wars of Mediik", and there are 43 chapters in  "Men of Mediik", and if you look at them, I suppose  that I can figure it out over time where they all  relate, but this is not certainly a handy summary, as  far -- in my submission.  And then in "Wars of Mediik"  she has three items listed in "Wars of Mediik".  Well,  I am looking at the index of "Wars of Mediik", and  there are six items in "Wars of Mediik".  THE COURT:  But it starts in the modern period, starts with --  first item is -- has Legyeex, L-e-g-y-e-e-x, I presume  is the same gentleman we have been hearing about.  So  I think counsel have to be able to respond to these  things with some agility, as I am sure they will, and  as they used to do all the time when there was no  notice provision, so I don't think there will be any  prejudice.  I am going to allow you to proceed.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  Now, you go on -- I am referring to your report, Miss  Marsden, and you refer to -- you refer to this quote  about the Mediik, and on page 115, this is the  description where the quote is, this is the  description of the Mediik from the Mediik adaawk?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, I would just like to move to page -- I  won't proceed further with that section, I will go to  page 123.  But before I go to that page, I just wonder  if you can indicate what these two adaawks signify in  terms of the development of the socio-cultural aspects 17153  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 and political aspects of the Gitksan.  2 A  Well, they -- all three of them focus on the  3 development of the foundation of law as they describe  4 it nowadays.  The basis of all their laws is respect  5 for other life forms and for other people.  6 Q   Okay.  7 A  And all -- they look to their experiences in the past  8 for the training that allow them to conclude the  9 foundation for their law.  10 Q   Okay.  11 A  As it says in one of them, the precepts were  12 forgotten.  They grew -- they grew -- they grew to  13 disregard the law, and so again they had a disaster.  14 Q   Now, you then -- I'm sorry.  You then go on to  15 describe in the next part:  16  17 "Temlaxham:  The Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en"  18  19 And you say at the end of the first paragraph on  20 page 123, My Lord:  21  22 "To the east where the Babine people or people  23 of the Loon, the gentle people whose beautiful  24 woman tamed the Sky Brothers and ended this era  2 5 of war."  26  27 And that is the reference to the inland people  28 that you were referring to this morning?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Or one reference to it.  Then you go on to say on page  31 124, about 10 lines down -- 6 lines down, My Lord:  32  33 "The Wet'suwet'en were a link between the  34 Gitksan and the interior peoples to the east,  35 just as the Gitksan were a link between the  36 Wet'suwet'en and the coastal peoples.  The  37 Wet'suwet'en have had a tempering effect on the  38 Northcoast cultural forms of the Gitksan.  The  39 Gitksan, in turn, have from the beginning  40 brought more institutionalized coastal ways to  41 the Wet'suwet'en.  In order to understand the  42 nature of the original relationship between  43 these two peoples, it is necessary to examine  44 in more detail the origins of the Wet'suwet'en  45 themselves."  46  47 Which you go on to do in the body of this chapter. 17154  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Now -- but can you explain what you mean by "The  2 Wet'suwet'en have had a tempering effect on the  3 northcoast cultural forms of the Gitksan"?  What are  4 you referring to there?  5 A  Well, the Wet'suwet'en -- the Wet'suwet'en are less  6 institutionally oriented.  They have a sense of the  7 importance of the larger group, and a strong sense of  8 the importance of the individual, whereas the coastal  9 people are more institutionalized, they -- in more  10 recent times than we have dealt with so far, and have  11 developed a royal class which -- and the authoritarian  12 nature of the chiefs was greater than among the  13 strictly coastal people, the Tsimshian.  14 And the Gitksan are in between.  The Gitksan, much  15 as they have houses like the Tsimshian and the same  16 institutions, the role of the chief is less  17 authoritarian, and the importance of the larger group  18 is also more important than on the coast.  On the  19 coast you have intense rivalry between groups, which  2 0 you don't find among the Gitksan.  And that's what I  21 refer to as the tempering influence of the  22 Wet'suwet'en, that their focus on the importance of  23 the individual and the large group, the well-being of  24 the large group have influenced the Gitksan.  25 MR. WILLMS:  My friend invited me to stand up.  I was wondering  26 if we were going to go to the adaawk where the witness  27 got that information.  I notice there is no cite there  28 to an adaawk.  Perhaps we could go to that adaawk now.  2 9    THE COURT:  With regard to the tempering?  30 MR. WILLMS:  Yes, the adaawk that the witness is referring to  31 and relying on when she comes to that conclusion.  32 MR. GRANT:  33 Q   This conclusion that you have reached with respect to  34 that relationship, what is the particular material,  35 that is which of these different bodies of material  36 that you relied upon that you considered to look at  37 that?  38 A   I understood that you were presenting that as a  39 summary of the following pages.  40 Q   And you described --  41 A  We can go through the following pages.  42 Q   And that's where you --  43 A   Page by page and follow the logic through it, if  44 that's what is necessary.  45 Q   You refer to the adaawk and in some cases Kungax upon  46 which you rely in coming to those conclusions in your  47 your report; is that right? 17155  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   That's right.  And also the development of the  2 institutions over time.  3 Q   Now, I would like to go -- I don't -- it's all in  4 there, My Lord, and I don't intend to go through all  5 of that, because of the time factor.  It's all in the  6 report.  But I am going to go to the -- I am going to  7 one place in this section on page 125 and 126, Miss  8 Marsden.  And you say at the bottom here:  9  10 "The Fireweed then evolved in a context."  11  12 And here are you referring to the Fireweed at  13 Temlaxham?  14 A   Yes, the Fireweed clan in their evolution.  15 Q  16  17 "Across the Skeena River from them, at  18 Gwungadalkxw, Hagwilget and Dizkle were the  19 peoples with whom they allied themselves, as  20 well as those, the Ravens, that had migrated  21 south with them to settle with their relatives,  22 the Gilseyuu.  In the same period as the  23 founding of Temlaxam, Dizkle was also founded,  24 and the Gitemden, the Gilseyuu, and the  25 Laxselyuu become one people, the original  26 Wet'suwet'en.  Temlaxam and Dizkle were, in a  27 sense, sister cities then, each founded with an  28 element of the other, each meeting place of two  29 cultures, which, from that time, were  30 intermeshed, yet distinct.  Here, then, at  31 Temlaxam and Dzikle, began the millenia of  32 cultural interweaving that created the  33 contemporary union of the Wet'suwet'en and the  34 Gitksan."  35  36 Is this your conclusion from your review of the  37 oral histories of this era?  38 MR. WILLMS:  I object, My Lord.  Unless the oral histories are  39 identified with Wet'suwet'en, there is only Jenness  40 that I can see listed in here and no written down  41 Kungax.  In my submission there is no foundation for  42 this opinion disclosed, and if there is a foundation,  43 my friend should get the witness to turn to the  44 foundation, because I say there is none.  45 THE COURT:  Well, I take this to be the conclusion of the  46 witness.  Is that right, Miss Marsden?  47 THE WITNESS:  Yes. 17156  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  This is your conclusion from reading all these  adaawk?  THE WITNESS:  Yes, and from other factors.  THE COURT:  And?  THE WITNESS:  The other factors of cultural development, and the  other statements that are recorded about the  Wet'suwet'en.  THE COURT:  And you can't point to an adaawk that makes those  statements specifically, can you?  THE WITNESS:  Well, if I could, then I would have just quoted  the adaawk.  THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  MR  COURT:  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  Okay.  Now, that's the -- your cumulative conclusion  as a result of your researching work; is that right?  That's true.  And you said "From reading of the adaawk and from  other factors".  Now, what are you referring to there?  What else?  The make-up of the clans among the Wet'suwet'en.  Okay.  And in your review of the Wet'suwet'en you  looked at Jenness?  Yes.  And what other things did you look at?  Well, I am also familiar with the contemporary  Wet'suwet'en society in a lesser extent than the  Gitksan, but certainly in terms of their clan  structure and the people in it.  Okay.  And does Barbeau make reference to the  Wet'suwet'en in his files?  Yes, inasmuch as there are connections between the  Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en, he refers to the  Hagwilget, not the Wet'suwet'en.  Okay.  So he refers and describes the Wet'suwet'en --  He also refers to Houses among the Wet'suwet'en that  are related to the Gitksan.  Okay.  And that would be in the Barbeau files that you  were reviewing in the Duff review?  In the Duff summaries.  Okay.  Now, I would like to go to page 168 and 169 of  your report.  Now, this is the end of -- this is the  end of this particular chapter on the Temlaxham, the  Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en, and you conclude as  follows:  "This chapter has given some examples of the  subtle merging of influences in Gitksan social 17157  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 institutions."  2  3 A   That's right.  4 Q  5  6 "These subtleties are apparent in all aspects of  7 Gitksan society.  Each institution among the  8 Gitksan is a product initially of inland and  9 coastal influences, as are those among the  10 Tsimshian and Nisga'.  However, the Gitksan  11 have continued to be influenced over the years  12 by the societies to the east which have kept  13 alive, among the Gitksan, a certain  14 socio-political focus which tempered their  15 Northcoast institutions.  Among the Tsimshian  16 this focus was gradually displaced or rendered  17 less powerful by the influence of their coastal  18 neighbours, especially the Tlingit, whose  19 emphasis on a hierarchical society ultimately  20 led to exclusive lineages and classes."  21  22 Now, this was -- this is your conclusion from your  23 review of the Northcoast oral histories?  24 A   Yes.  And it refers to later chapters in the report.  25 Q   Okay.  26  27 "At Temlaxam, where the essential Northcoast  2 8 cultural forms came into their own we have seen  29 the institution of the relationship between the  30 Fireweed and the Frog clan, which links the  31 Gitksan to the Wet'suwet'en and their eastern  32 neighbours.  It was this relationship which, in  33 a sense, built the modifying force into the  34 foundation of Gitksan socio-political  35 institutions.  It is the same relationship  36 which, over the years, has helped to keep this  37 force alive."  38  39 Now, can you just explain just very briefly what  40 you say the institution of the relationship between  41 the Fireweed and the Frog clan that you found?  42 A  Well, it was the Fireweed group that were split  43 between the Wet'suwet'en and the Gitksan, and they  44 were related to each other, and that connected the  45 two.  Did I say Fireweed?  46 Q   You said Fireweed.  47 A   Sorry, I meant Frog.  The Fireweed didn't join the 1715?  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Wet'suwet'en until a later date at the dispersal from  2 Temlaxham.  3 THE COURT:  Didn't become related or didn't become connected or  4 what?  5 THE WITNESS:  The Fireweed was not directly connected in the  6 sense of relatives among the two people until after  7 the dispersal.  8 MR. GRANT:  9 Q   And from all of your work and research, what  10 conclusions -- how would you characterize the  11 relationship between the Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en?  12 A  Well, it's really interesting.  When you look at the  13 bordering groups among the Gitksan, there have been  14 periods of war with every single group.  They have in  15 more recent times had wars with the Tsimshian or  16 hostilities with the Tsimshian.  There have been Haida  17 wars, Nisga wars in -- during the fur trade period.  18 They had wars with the Tsetsaut over long periods of  19 time.  In none of the oral histories in any of the  20 time periods are there ever any accounts of battles  21 between the Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en or  22 hostilities that I have seen.  23 Q   And in this chapter you describe -- something that Mr.  24 Macaulay referred you to in cross-examining you on  25 qualifications, and that is the Shamanic traditions.  26 What conclusions, if any, have you reached with  27 respect to that, and why did you discuss that in  28 detail in this chapter?  29 A  Well, the discussion leads to -- exemplifies the fact  30 that the Shamanic institution was introduced into the  31 Temlaxham situation through the Wet'suwet'en or  32 through their neighbours to the east.  33 Q   I would like to turn you now to the next chapter of  34 your report in which you talk about Gitangasx,  35 G-i-t-a-n-g-a-s-x, the Gitksan and the Laxwiiyip.  And  36 you state at the opening there that:  37  38 "As the Fireweed grew and prospered at  39 Temlaxham, the people to the north in the  40 Gitangasx area also seem to have established a  41 stable balance.  The Fireweed, the Wolf  42 (Eagles) and the Frog clan all retained a  43 presence there.  The northern Fireweed retained  44 the ambivalence of the origins which they  45 shared with the Wolf (Eagles)."  46  47 Now, can you explain -- you go into some detail in 17159  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 the report, but in terms of this chronology you are  2 talking about, what is the relevance, or how does  3 Gitangasx fit into this?  4 A  Well, Gitangasx is said to be the ancient village area  5 of a large number of Gitksan, and it's -- whenever the  6 time of its -- whenever time is referred to in terms  7 of Gitangasx, it is said to be either contemporaneous  8 with Temlaxham or precedes Temlaxham, in terms of  9 being established as a settlement area.  10 Q   And then you quote Barbeau, and he refers to the  11 peculiarity of the Gitangasx Fireweed, and he says:  12  13 "The phratric status of this clan (the Gitangasx  14 Fireweed) is very peculiar; it is indeed, quite  15 unique.  It belongs as much to the Wolf as the  16 the Fireweed phratry."  17  18 Now, I take it by "phratry" there he is referring  19 to clan; is that right?  20 A   Yes, he uses clan to mean wilnadahl, and phratry to  21 mean clan, as we have been using.  22 Q   Okay.  But other than the -- that terminology, do  23 you -- did you find a similar feature in your review  24 of the adaawk?  25 A  Well, if you look -- if you look at the northern  26 peoples, you see that among their crests and their  27 villages and the information on that.  28 Q   Okay.  Now, you go on to summarize on page 170 at the  29 bottom that:  30  31 "The Frog clan remained a powerful group in the  32 north where the northern inland identity was  33 retained among the Laxwiiyip, but was greatly  34 modified among the Gitksan."  35  36 Now, when you are referring to the Frog clan among  37 the north, is this the same as the Raven?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Okay.  40  41 "That the Fireweed groups maintained active  42 relations with other branches of their clan  43 throughout their history is indicated in many  44 of their ada'ox, and it is likely that close  45 ties existed in these early times also, since  46 the culture which flourished at Temlaxham  47 strongly influenced their northern neighbours 17160  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 at Gitangasx.  Nowhere is this influence as  2 apparent as it is among the northern Gitksan  3 Raven clan, where it distinguishes them from  4 their relatives further to the north.  5 The evidence for this is quite striking in the  6 ada'ox of Luuxoon,"  7 L-u-u-x-o-o-n.  8 "Xamlaxyeltxw",  9 X-a-m-1-a-x-y-e-l-t-x-w.  10 "Sendihl",  11 S-e-n-d-i-h-1.  12 "Singe'win",  13 S-i-n-g-e-w-i-n.  14 "and Hlamii",  15 H-1-a-m-i-i.  16 "These Houses migrated from the Bowser Lake  17 area during the Temlaxham era and eventually  18 settled in Kitwancool, perhaps centuries  19 earlier.  These chiefs were brothers of Skawil  20 and relatives of 'Wiiminoosikx who lived at  21 that time at Blackwater Lake.  They were also  22 clan brothers with their Laxwiiyip neighbours  23 whom they called Tsetsaut, while they  24 themselves were Gitksan.  All of these groups  25 spoke Tset'saut, however:"  26  27 Now, are these conclusions with respect to these  28 relations of these groups, conclusions you've arrived  29 at as a result of your reading of the oral histories  30 about these groups?  31 A   Yes, it's explicitly stated in --  32 Q   And just so that I am clear, Luuxoon and Xamlaxyeltxw  33 and Hlamii, those are what now -- what we would now  34 refer to as Kitwancool chiefs?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And Skawil and Wiminoosikx are Gitksan chiefs other  37 than Kitwancool chiefs?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Now —  40 A   That quote there is -- is interesting, in that the  41 informant can say that the Gitksan, Luuxoon was now  42 speaking Tsetsaut.  43 Q   Yes.  44 A   He and the rest of the Genada at that time who were  45 speaking the Tsetsaut tongue, shows that they had a  46 sense of not only their relationship with the  47 neighbouring group through their clan, but also 17161  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  through their language, while at the same time they  distinguished themselves as Gitksan as opposed to  Tsetsaut.  THE COURT:  Are Tsetsaut Athabaskan speaking people or Tsimshian  speaking people?  THE WITNESS: Athabaskan.  THE COURT:  Okay.  MR.  GRANT:  Q  A  Q  A  Now, I would like to refer you to Exhibit 1048.  It's  one of the adaawk binders, Raven clan outlaws.  My  Lord, I, in the interests of austerity and time, I  have basically put tabs in interspersed about every  ten, so that the adaawk numbers can be referred to in  these binders.  But I didn't tab every one, and of  course the entire table of contents is there, but not  all the adaawk.  For example, on this binder we  started at adaawk number 17, as 1 to 16 were not in  our view relevant to the Gitksan or to the opinions of  this witness to the degree that they should be filed.  Can you refer to tab -- not tab, but adaawk 56 -- I'm  sorry, adaawk 57.  It would be after tab 50,  obviously, My Lord.  It is called "The origins of  Lurhawn and the groundhog country".  Lurhawn in this  case is spelt L-u-r-h-a-w-n.  That's the same as  Luxoon, L-u -- as you have got it in your report.  Is  that right?  L-u-u-x-o-o-n is the same chief?  Yes.  Miss Marsden, is this adaawk -- this adaawk 57 of the  Frog clan, is it significant for you with respect to  the Gitangasx?  It's one of the important adaawk.  It covers a long  time span, and it's -- it's rather rare, because the  Kitwancool would not speak to Beynon and Barbeau  because of the Kitwancool Jim incident, and so there  aren't as many versions available.  So the fact that  this one was collected by Luxoon himself -- from  Luxoon himself.  He was living in Kitwanga at the  time, I think -- yes -- means that he had the right to  tell it.  So it's -- it's significant in that sense  that it's a rare --  Okay.  And in fact in the top of it it makes reference  to that, that Lurhawn or George Derrick, Larhsai'l or  Raven of Kitwancool, who stated that his tradition and  crests were the same as those as Kamlarhyaelk.  In  this case that's K-a-m-1-a-r-h-y-a-e-l-k, but it's the  same as Xamlaxyeltxw as spelled in your report,  X-a-m-1-a-x-y-e-l-t-x-w.  Is that right? 17162  S.M. Marsden (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   The present holder of that name is Solomon Marsden?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q  5  6 "As Kamlarhyaelk was not willing to communicate  7 this information here, he had hesitations to do  8 otherwise, yet here is his narrative as  9 interpreted by William Beynon in 1924 of  10 Kitwanga."  11  12 And this you quote from this adaawk -- or take  13 certain parts of this adaawk out to -- in your  14 explanation -- in your report I should say?  15 A   Yes.  16 THE COURT:  Is it convenient to take the afternoon adjournment,  17 Mr. Grant?  18 MR. GRANT:  Certainly, My Lord.  19 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned for a  20 short recess.  21  22 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A BRIEF RECESS)  23  24 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO BE  25 A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE  2 6 PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE BEST OF MY  27 SKILL AND ABILITY.  28  2 9    3 0 LORI OXLEY  31 OFFICIAL REPORTER  32 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 17163  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant.  5 MR. GRANT:  Thank you, my lord.  6 MR. MACAULAY:  Before we get going again, my lord, this may be a  7 good time to discuss whether or not we should start  8 early tomorrow morning.  9 THE COURT:  Well, I am free.  How early did you have in mind,  10 Mr. Macaulay?  11 MR. MACAULAY:  9 o'clock.  12 THE COURT:  I would prefer 9:30 if that's — are we going to be  13 pressed for time?  14 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, we haven't got to Volume 2 yet.  And  15 despite the fact that Mr. Grant has been moving along  16 quite briskly, we have jumped 30 or 40 pages just a  17 few minutes ago, it is his hope that he will be  18 through by tomorrow noon.  19 THE COURT:  Yes.  20 MR. MACAULAY:  But that's a hope.  Mr. Willms has about a day of  21 cross-examination.  I have about a half day.  22 THE COURT:  Well, I can say this that I really am uncomfortable  23 about starting before 9:30.  There is just so much  24 happens just at that time of the day.  But I can sit  25 late tomorrow afternoon and I don't mind starting at  26 9:30.  We can put in another hour or an hour and a  27 half tomorrow afternoon.  Do you have something  28 important tomorrow night, Mr. Macaulay?  2 9 MR. MACAULAY:  I do, my lord.  30 THE COURT:  Well, then in those circumstances maybe we had  31 better start at 9 o'clock and adjourn at 4?  32 MR. MACAULAY:  4:30 perhaps.  It is a question of just getting  33 through.  I don't think there should be any change on  34 my account.  My colleague Mr. Frey can carry on.  35 THE COURT:  Yes.  36 MR. GRANT:  My lord, what I would propose is with respect to  37 tomorrow 9:30 would certainly be --  I would prefer  38 that as well in terms of things.  I have no difficulty  39 in going to 4:30.  40 THE COURT:  Well, I think the tie goes to 9:30.  We will go to  41 whatever is reasonable tomorrow afternoon if we have  42 to sit until 5:30 or even 6 o'clock so that we can see  43 that we are finished Friday.  All right.  44 MR. GRANT:  As you know, I endeavour to be brief on re-direct so  45 I am assuming very little time for that.  4 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  4 7 MR. GRANT: 17164  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q   Now, I had referred you to adaawk Raven Clan Outlaws  file of Barbeau, adaawk 57, "Origins of Lurhawn in the  Groundhog Country".  This is one of the adaawks you  relied on in coming to your conclusions in this  section with respect to Gitangasx, the Gitskan and the  Laxwiiyip.  G-I-T-A-N-G-A-S-X, that's Gitangasx.  Now,  what I would like you to do, Ms. Marsden, is just  utilize this adaawk and pinpoint those key features as  to how the adaawk, this adaawk, is expressed and  describe how you arrived at conclusions out of it?  A  After the name of the informant and so on has been  given it starts bit identifying the original village.  It says that they had a village before the flood  indicating antiquity at Tsem'anlusraerhs.  This term  indicates very shallow water where the people could  wade and leave their footprints.  That is in the area  close to Bowser Lake.  COURT:  You are going to have to give madam reporter a  spelling for that long time.  WITNESS:  T-S-I-M — should I do it the way it is in the  adaawk or the report?  GRANT:  My lord, if my friends have no objection the witness  can just spell it as it is spelled generally rather  than here.  This is using the spellings of Barbeau.  THE COURT:  Well, I think I would rather spell it this way  because if one is looking comparing the evidence with  the text one is going to be mislead.  It is a triggering mechanism, yes.  Yes.  THE  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Okay.  It is spelled then T-S-E-M, apostrophe,  A-N-L-U-S-R-A-E-R-H-S.  Then it goes onto say:  "This was a great village, very populous.'1  Which in describing an ancestral village that was  there for a long time the Gitanyow is described the  same way, Gitangas, Temlaxam.  Q   G-I-T-A-N-Y-O-W.  A       "It was their original home."  They state that as their most ancient village.  And  then it goes onto account for two crests.  Now, the  way it is told this adaawk indicates some of the  methodological problems of dealing with adaawk because  they are often told as if they all took place in the 17165  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 same week, all of the events they are referring to.  2 The first paragraph has identified the house.  The  3 four main chiefs go out on a hunting trip and they  4 have -- this event takes place where they see a Raven  5 pillar in the water and they take it as their crest.  6 When they come back they decide to hold a feast and  7 that's on page 2 just past halfway down.  It says:  8  9 "Then he made preparation for a great yaeok,  10 Y-A-E-O-K, in which he was to exhibit and take  11 possession of the --"  12  13 And mine is cut off here.  Of the crest I assume he  14 had found in the lake.  15  16 "Messengers were sent to the different villages of  17 Gitwindotshlaks... which means Blackwater spelled  18 G-I-T-W-I-N-D-O-T-S-H-L-A-K-S  19 ...People-of-the-Black-water or  20 Black-water-people, the tribe of the Stikine and  21 the Tsetsaut.  While the messengers were gone  22 inviting these and other tribes, the stone pillar  23 disappears."  24  25 And they reproduce it as a pole.  26 Q   Is this an adaawk that you've read earlier, is there  27 earlier descriptions of the pole before this time?  28 A   In the one we were dealing with earlier today Lelt  29 says they made a pole when they first arrived in the  30 Kitwanga area.  But their references to the pole -- to  31 poles other than copper canes which are also  32 remembered to as copper poles sometimes are rare in  33 the early adaawk --  34 Q   Okay.  I'm sorry.  35 A   -- if non-existent.  The crest that is taken as a  36 result of this experience there are two of them.  The  37 name of the pole we are on page 3 now in the second  38 paragraph.  The name of the pole is Ha'nilahlqaq, H-A,  39 apostrophe, N-I-H-L -- sorry, H-A, apostrophe,  40 N-I-L-A-H-L-Q-A-Q, On-lying-Raven.  That's the name of  41 the pole.  That's Xamlaxyeltxw's pole today.  The two  42 crests that are taken in this event are the  43 Gyaedem-dzoyerh, G-Y-A-E-D-E-M-H, and D-Z-O-Y-E-R-H,  44 and the Raven-od-the-water.  45 Q   Can you just pause a moment.  Xamlaxyeltxw for madam  46 reporter is X-A-M-L-A-X-Y-E-L-T-X-W.  Sorry, Ms.  47 Marsden. 17166  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   That ends the description of that event.  And then  2 again, as I've said, they have -- they go on to the  3 next event as if it happened right away which isn't  4 necessarily the case.  5 Q   Can you just pinpoint where they went on to the next  6 event?  7 A   It says:  "After the yeaok", Y-E-A-O-K.  8 THE COURT:  Where is that?  9 THE WITNESS:  That's the beginning of the third paragraph.  10 THE COURT:  That's after the feast?  11 THE WITNESS:  That's right.  They go onto describe the  12 acquisition of a second crest.  Basically one of them  13 is kidnapped by a supernatural bird and they save him.  14 MR. GRANT:  15 Q   Now —  16 A  And there is a song involved with that crest.  17 Q   As you've said, it sounds there -- when after the  18 yaeok or after the feast the brothers again went up  19 into the mountains, it sounds like something that  20 happened immediately after.  Is this a common way of  21 describing events?  22 A   Yes.  When we get into other adaawk I can show how  23 different versions -- if you compare different  24 versions you can see a version like this where it  25 appears to all be happening at once and then another  26 more lengthy version where the events are separated by  27 long periods of time.  It is those more lengthy  28 versions that allowed me to understand that just  29 because it switches to the next paragraph doesn't  30 necessarily mean it is all taking place in the same  31 time period.  32 THE COURT:  Did you say that he was taken by a mythical bird or  33 supernatural bird?  34 THE WITNESS:  The Semgyik.  35 THE COURT:  I don't see that in that paragraph.  36 THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry, it is the beginning of page 4 the  37 "Real-Woodpecker-in-nest"?  38 THE COURT:  So that is a continuation, is it?  39 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  They have put the title a little late.  4 0 MR. GRANT:  41 Q   Yes?  42 A   So you now have Lurhawn identifying himself in terms  43 of his original village and his two -- three of the  44 main crests of his house and the related houses.  Then  45 he goes on in the middle of page 4 to talk about an  46 event that takes place that forces the migration of  47 part of this group Sqawil is a brother and he is 17167  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 killed by Gyabesk, G-Y-A-B-E-S-K.  2 Q   Do you know is there a Gitskan person who holds Sqawil  3 today?  4 A   I know that the name is still used.  I don't know what  5 the English name of the person is, who holds that  6 name.  7 Q   Now, in Gyabesk which house group would Gyabesk be in?  8 A   He is in that same group Lurhawn and Kamlarhyaelk.  9 Q   Go ahead, I'm sorry.  10 A   It is interesting here because they decide to flee and  11 they decide to join their neighbours.  They think of a  12 number of places to go and decide not to.  They were  13 going to their relatives among the Tsetsaut so you  14 have that relationship there at Meziadin Lake.  15 Q   You are referring here to the bottom of page 4 where  16 it says:  17  18 "The other meanwhile were now going in flight to  19 one of their relatives among the Tsetsaut."?  20  21 A   Yes.  22 Q       "In this Tsetsaut village was one of their  23 brothers, at Meziadin Lake."  24  25 That's the reference you are referring to?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   All right.  Go ahead.  28 A  And then at the top of page 5 it indicates where --  29 excuse me a minute.  Okay, I'm sorry, this is  30 another -- there are two Larhwiyip.  There is another  31 Laxwiiyip.  It just stopped me for a minute here.  The  32 Tsetsaut village is on this large plateau.  Then he  33 goes onto name the Ganeda -- the Tsetsaut people who  34 were living there who were members of the Frog clan.  35 This is interesting because in the anthropological  36 literature on the Tsetsaut they don't identify a Frog  37 clan.  They simply identify the Wolf and the Eagles.  38 Then he says:  39  40 "These were the four chiefs among the Raven clan  41 of the Tsetsaut."  42  43 And then he makes a little side track there to talk  44 about a later war with the Tsetsaut.  And then he gets  45 back to his story where he says:  46  47 "The people who went in flight..." 1716?  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2 Okay, so they have decided not to join the Tsetsaut  3 and they take flight and he names them.  I won't list  4 them all in the middle of the page there.  5 Q   That is halfway down page 5?  6 A   Yes.  7  8 "These were the leaders of the Raven clan that  9 were in flight owing to the murder of Sqawil."  10  11 And then it goes on to describe their migrations in  12 the last third of the page.  13  14 "They were now undecided whether they should go to  15 the Tsetsaut people, and they stopped at the  16 moutain of Sqa'nisem-habesqu, S-Q-A, apostrophe,  17 N-I-S-E-M — H-A-B-E-S-Q-U, wondering whether  18 they would be favourably received received by the  19 Tsetsaut."  20  21 This is where they decide not to join them.  22  23 "So they changed their plans and decided to go to  24 Weemenawzek, their relative at Blackwater."  25  26 Who was mentioned already in terms of the feast.  27 Q   Yes.  28 A       "When they were nearing that village of  29 Weemenawzek, they held council among themselves  30 and were afraidthey would arouse his anger, as he  31 was also a friend of Sqawil.  So they turned and  32 went back towards the Nass and came to the  33 junction of the Nass and Black-Water River.  The  34 following morning after they arrived here, they  35 crossed the Nass River and went to a huge  36 mountain which was bare, and this they called  37 Larh'wiyish, On-plateau or prairie.  They were  38 accompanied in this trip by their entire  39 families."  40  41 They talk about the groundhogs there.  Then they  42 realize that they have to abandon their territory and  43 they sing a limxooy, a dirge as it is translated.  44 L-I-M-X-O-O-Y.  45 Q   Now, can you -- do you -- have you reached any  46 conclusion as to when they are talking about crossing  47 the Nass and going to a huge mountain that is bare, 17169  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 roughly what area are they talking about?  2 A  Well, I thought if I went down -- if you look at  3 Bowser Lake and then they go over slightly towards  4 Meziadin and then down basically parallel to the Nass  5 until they get to the village where they decide to  6 stay.  It is like Kitwancool.  It is Winskahlskauhl  7 and then another branch goes further onto  8 Gitksetsoosxwt.  9 Q   You will have to give the spellings of those.  I am  10 sorry, I may be interrupting you.  Just give the  11 spellings of those first.  12 A  Winskahlskauhl is W-I-N-S-K-A-H-L-S-K-A-U-H-L.  And  13 Gitksetsoosxwt is G-I-T-K-S-E-T-S-O-O-S-X-W-T.  So now  14 I've given their migrations which are covered in the  15 next -- there is a couple of other place names they  16 refer to.  At the top of page 7.  17 Q   Yes.  18 A "There were large animals like dogs that were  19 watching for the beavers when they came out of  20 these dams.  They killed one of these animals and  21 found that it was narits, N-A-R-I-T-S, a Woverine  22 or Nawdzek."  23  24 That's the other term for that.  N-A-W-D-Z-E-K.  25  26 "Then they called this territory  27 'An'arhtsemaelirh-'narits ,  28 Where-partakes-of-beaver-the-Wolverine."  29  30 Apostrophe, A-N, apostrophe,  31 A-R-H-T-S-E-M-A-E-L-I-R-H — apostrophe, N-A-R-I-T-S.  32 And then they continued on looking for a new place to  33 live.  And they named a place because of an event that  34 took place on their journies -- two places, actually.  35 Larh'angu-santku, L-A-R-H, apostrophe, A-N-G-U --  36 S-A-N-T-K-U, and 'Aks'nagyalre, apostrophe A-K-S,  37 apostrophe, N-A-G-Y-A-L-R-E.  And then they finally  38 come close to a Niskae village to a place called  39 Wunskahlku'1-tselasu.  This is interesting because  40 they build a house that is not a typical house of the  41 time.  He points out that it is not isn't and he calls  42 it the Sqathlaeo house.  43 Q   That's S-Q-A-T-H-L-A-E-O.  And Wunskahlku'1-tselasu is  44 W-U-N-S-K-A-H-L-K-U, apostrophe, L — T-S-E-L-A-S-U.  45 A  And then it describes that type of house.  And that  46 house is one of the crests of this people as well as  47 the ladder that comes out of it.  So here they 17170  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 settled.  And then one of them Lurhawn decided to go  2 further.  It goes on to talk about his wanderings and  3 his establishment at Gitksedzo'otsu,  4 G-I-T-K-S-E-D-Z-O, apostrophe O-T-S-U on page 8 just  5 below the middle of the page there.  6 Q   Yes.  7 A  And again we have -- so at a distance on this river  8 towards the mouth Lurhawn erected a house at this  9 village.  10  11 "When he began this house, one of his brothers  12 came to him and said, 'We have discovered a  13 village down below us on the main river (the  14 Nass) and the people that live there are fighters  15 and warriors.  The Gitskan Lurhawn was now  16 speaking Tsetsaut.  He and the rest of the  17 Kanhada at that time were speaking with Tsetsaut  18 tongue.  This man said, 'These people at the  19 village do not speak the same language as  20 ourselves, but theirs is a foreign tongue.  The  21 younger man and his Kanhada party prepared  22 themselves to go down to this new village."  23  24  25 What Lurhawn decides to do is to form an alliance with  26 them, the nature of which isn't described.  But the  27 fact that he decides to invite them to a feast and  28 demonstrate his naxnox, N-A-X-N-O-X, indicate that he  29 is forming a peaceful relationship with the Niskae.  30 And what it says explicitly is that he is letting them  31 know that he is building his village there.  32 Q   Where is it?  33 A   Do you want me to go through that slowly?  34 Q   No, I don't think you have to go through that.  35 A  At the top of page 9.  36 Q   That's where he refers --  37 A       "...was going to his new village to invite him to  38 his yaeok and announced the establishment of his  39 new village of Wunsguhlkul."  40 Q   Now, Ms. Mars —  41 A   So they have come from Bowser Lake down past Meziadin  42 and that Nass River area to just above where Hyanch  43 (sic) is now.  44 Q   And that's the location of the village just above  45 where Hyanch is?  46 A   Yes, Gitksedzo'otsu, that's Nisga territory,, it is  47 part of their territory. 17171  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   Is there any significance in terms of your -- we have  2 reviewed all of these adaawk where he says the Gitskan  3 Lurhawn was now speaking Tsetsaut, the reference to  4 the language he was speaking?  5 A  Well, I pointed out earlier that it was significant.  6 Do you mean in addition to that?  7 Q   Well, does it tell you anything in terms of the  8 placing of this adaawk and the timing?  9 A   Not the language specifically, no.  10 Q   Go ahead.  11 A   The description here of what he does is really -- it  12 is really quite a detailed description of a feast for  13 an adaawk.  It obviously was an important event to  14 be -- to be described in this amount of detail.  He  15 describes the crests that he exhibited and the nature  16 of them.  17 Q   That's on page 9 he goes through the description in  18 detail?  19 A   Yes.  And also the fact that he was going to do his  20 income naxnox before the feast.  He asked his -- he  21 asked his guest to fast before he demonstrated his  22 income naxnox.  Then it breaks again and that's where  23 the early period ends.  24 Q   Now, that's at the top of page 10 is a break -- it  25 starts a later period?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Now, you summarize a portion of this adaawk in your  28 report this in this chapter on Gitangasx?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And then you conclude on page 178 -- you state:  31  32 "In the adaawk of Luuxoon are all of the essential  33 aspects of the Gitksan socio-political system.  34 The sacred bond of kinship is broken by Skawil's  35 murder and as a result of this violation of the  36 law, the murderers wilnat'ahl is cut off from  37 their relatives, their village and their land.  38 In their search for new, unclaimed territory they  39 find a stretch of the Nass river from below  40 Meziadin Lake to Gitksets'oosxwt, G-I-T-K-S-E-T-S  41 apostrophe, O-O-S-X-W-T.  After years of  42 rebuilding their population and their wealth,  43 they are able to establish their claim, and  44 their boundaries with the Gitwillaxgyap,  45 G-I-T-W-I-L-L-A-X-G-Y-A-P.  This relationship  46 with a previously unknown people is formalized  47 with the yukxw in which elaborate crests, their 17172  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 histories and the naxnox establish their power  2 and their right to ownership."  3  4 Now, is that a summary of your description of what was  5 in that particular adaawk?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Okay.  Now, you go on under this section to explain  8 the connection with Gitangasx.  On page 179 of your  9 report you say that:  10  11 "Although Gitangasx is not mentioned in Luuxoon's  12 ada'ox, he and his relatives are said elsewhere  13 to be from there."  14  15 Is this from other adaawk and statements of origin?  16 A   Yes.  In fact, Solomen in his evidence that I just  17 read recently said that.  18 Q "Other groups of the Frog clan, such as the Houses  19 from Blackwater are also said to be from there."  20  21 And here you are referring to Meluulek, 'Wiiminoosik  22 and Haiwas of Kisgagas; is that right?  23 A   That's right.  24 Q "The Wolves said to be from Gitangasx are now  25 considered the Kisgagas and Galdo'o Wolves, while  26 the Fireweed from there, Wiiget, Xkyadet, Geel,  27 Dawamuux,  are those who remained in the north  28 after the war there between the Sky Children and  2 9 the Raven People."  30  31 Then you go onto say:  32  33 "That these groups are often identified with two  34 places of origin indicates one or both of two  35 situations.  Gitangasx could well have been  36 originally like Dehldan, D-E-H-L-D-A-N, a central  37 village or meeting place where groups that spent  38 much of their time hunting and fishing on their  39 territories gathered seasonally.  In another era,  40 Gitangasx was probably a village, perhaps very  41 large and centralized, spread out along the flat  42 there.  This village site lies halfway, almost  43 exactly, between the central fishing and hunting  44 village of the Blackwater Frog clan, and that of  45 the Galdo'o Wolves to the west and the Kisgagas  46 Wolves to the east.  The Fireweed were both  47 somewhat to the south of the Wolves and to the 17173  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  north of the Frog clan, if presently owned  territory is an accurate indication."  Now, here you were relying on the descriptions of  territories in the 1920's in the Barbeau material?  A   Yes.  And also my knowledge of what I've been told in  contemporary times.  Q   And that's your conclusion with respect to Gitangasx?  A   Yes.  Q   You go on to state -- you refer to the quote of John  Brown that the House of Wiiget.  "They had big hunting grounds near Galdo'o which  proves they are from Gitangasx."  That's a quote from John Brown, one of the informants  of Barbeau; is that right?  A   He was one of Barbeau's key informants, yes.  Q   And then you refer to:  "The word Gitangasx may well be used in the same  way as Laxwiiyip, to mean both the large area  owned by a people and the central village of  that people.  That Gitangasx village was founded  by the Galdo'o Wolves is well-known as their  ada'ox tells of their choice of the site."  And then you go onto quote the description of  Gitangasx from John Brown.  I would like to refer you  now to Exhibit 1049 if Madam Registrar can put it in  front of you.  You can take away the Raven clan  binder.  This is the Wolf Clan Invaders, adaawk number  52.  The tab is 61, my lord, so it is the one right  after that.  :  Where does this appear in the text of the report?  Page 182 it is referred to, I believe.  No, it's not  cited.  It comes within this area of the one of the  adaawk that the witness is referring to.  It it is in  the area of page 182.  I am looking at my notes.  Are you speaking of number 52?  Yes.  The adaawk of Lax Gibuu of Kitwancool.  No, it's not.  I may have referred to -- just a moment.  Sorry, my  lord, my note may be wrong.  I may be referring to the  Raven clan.  Just a moment.  I wish to ask you about  the timing of the founding of Kitwancool in relation 17174  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 to the dispersal of Temlaxam.  Is this referred to in  2 this adaawk of the Lax Gibuu of Kitwancool?  3 A   Oh, well this adaawk number 52 is one of the  4 dovetailing adaawk that helped me to place one thing  5 before or with or after another.  It is an example of  6 that.  7 Q   Okay.  8 A   This is a Wolf House Haidzemrhs, H-A-I-D-Z-E-M-R-H-S  9 also from Kitwancool now.  We don't need to deal with  10 the whole adaawk.  It just states at the beginning  11 that they were at Gitangasx.  They also from other  12 adaawk are present at some point in time also this one  13 actually at Temlaxam.  So they are an unusual house in  14 that during this time period they were both at  15 Temlaxam and at Gitangasx.  And when the dispersal  16 from Temlaxam comes they go to go back to their --  17 they head back to their northern territory.  It is  18 that that connects them with the Luuxoon group which  19 allows me to place Luuxoon in the north during -- he  20 is still in the north at the time of the dispersal  21 from Temlaxam.  That's on page 5.  He thought that the  22 water -- no, I will just go on --  23 Q   On page 5 you are referring?  24 A   Yes, he talks -- he says:  25  26 "So he began to move back to Larhanrairh,  27 L-A-R-H-A-N-R-A-I-R-H, where he thought they  28 would be safe with his grandchild Sendihl."  29  30 So you can see at this time Haidzemerhs, the Wolf  31 House of Haidzemerhs, and the Frog House of Sendihl  32 which is the same as Luuxoon are intermarried.  33 Sendihl is S-E-N-D-I-H-L.  It goes on to it discuss  34 his wanderings and the -- another Luuxoon name  35 Sinraiweh on page 6, S-I-N-R-A-I-W-E-H.  It refers to  36 Tsem'anlusqaerhs, T-S-E-M, apostrophe,  37 A-N-L-U-S-Q-A-E-R-H-S.  So it places Haidzemerhs and  38 Luuxoon together in the north at the time of the  39 dispersal from Temlaxam.  40 Q   On page 182 of your report, I will refer you back to  41 that, you -- there is:  42  43 "Some discussion as to the use of the terms  44 Laxwiiyip and Tsetsaut is necessary at this  45 point.  The word Tsetsaut is unfortunate from a  46 researcher's point of view as it masks crucial  47 distinctions and, combined with other terms, 17175  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 indicates a plethora of groups in the northern  2 area, whereas a more straightforward, yet  3 accurate, description seems possible."  4  5 And then you go on to say that:  6  7 "Tsetsaut (meaning "inland people") is a word used  8 by the more coastal Tsimshian, Nisga' and Gitskan  9 for their inland neighbours.  the Tlingit have a  10 similar term, Gunana, G-U-N-A-N-A, for the inland  11 people bordering their territory.  The fact that  12 all the coastal groups were, in part, peopled  13 by such inland groups is easily forgotten when  14 this distinction is made.  The use of these terms  15 also implies the concept of a clear cut cultural  16 distinction between coastal and inland peoples, a  17 concept not present or not applied in the same  18 way, in the earliest time.  The Skeena river  19 peoples were once inland peoples in the  20 minds of the Gitamaat.  The distionction between  21 Gitksan and Tsetsaut could be made only after a  22 non-inland or an a-typical inland culture was  23 created."  24  25 Then you go onto state:  26  27 "It is my opinion that with the creation of the  28 Fireweed clan and the founding and evolution of  29 the Temlaxam, the Gitskan became something other  30 than an inland people.  At this time what was  31 once a common cultural group at Tahltan,  32 Laxwiiyip, Gitangasx, and down the Skeena river,  33 started to separate into more distinct groups."  34  35 And then you go onto describe that there were  36 previously Gitskan -- distinctions.  And in the fourth  37 line up from the bottom you say:  38  39 "Thus, when people began to be distinguished as  40 Tsetsaut, it indicated they were somehow  41 different from their non-Tsetsaut neighbours and  42 that much as their clan identity and their  43 origins might be shared, a new cultural element  44 had been added to distinguish them as Gitskan and  45 their northern neighbours as Tsetsaut."  46  47 Now, where you are referring to "when people began to 17176  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 be distinguished as Tsetsaut," are you referring to  2 when they are being distinguished as Tsetsaut in the  3 adaawk and oral histories?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And what I have edited or I have only read part of  6 what you said, but that is your conclusion with  7 respect to the terminology of the Tsetsaut?  8 A   Right.  I think the next paragraph is also important  9 that:  10  11 "Among contemporary informants "Tsetsaut" can be  12 interchangeable with "Stikine" and "Sekani" and  13 often with "Laxwiiyip."   They also sometimes  14 call the Tahltan Tsetsaut."  15  16 Q   Thank you.  Then you say at the top of page 186:  17  18 "The Laxwiiyip were also people of the Stikine, as  19 were the Tahltan and the Stikine Tlingit."  20  21 This is after you describe that the Laxwiiyip were  22 always close to the Tahltans.  23  24 "The Laxwiiyip were also, in part, Sekani,  25 certainly in the recent past, and perhaps always  26 so at least where their territory and their lives  27 met their neighbours."  28  29 What time period are you talking about when you say  30 about "recent past" in relatives terms?  31 A  Well, I think you need to start that paragraph a  32 little earlier just to make sense.  33 Q   I'm sorry.  At the bottom of the previous page?  34 A       "That the Laxwiiyip were always close to the  35 Tahltans is clear as there is no record of  36 battles or hostilities between them, only within  37 each group, between clans.  Because of this,  38 distinctions between them often blur and now, of  39 course, they are again one people."  40  41 And then you asked me a question about in the recent  42 past?  43 Q   Yes.  44 A   I mean in the proto-historic period as people nowadays  45 call it.  46 Q   Okay.  47 A  After the influence of white people, but not 17177  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 necessarily after their arrival among the Gitskan or  2 the Tahltan or the Stikine.  3 Q   And then you summarize at page 188 your conclusion.  4  5 "In summary, there were two large groups north of  6 the Gitskan in the Temlaxam era, the Tahltan and  7 the Laxwiiyip.  These two groups were probably  8 loosely allied at this time.  They were both  9 dominated by the Raven clan, who were then  10 paired with the Wolf (Eagles).  Only one, the  11 Laxwiiyip, shared their boundary with the  12 Gitskan, primarily with their relatives of  13 origin, the Blackwater and Bowser Lake Frog clan,  14 and possibly, at this time, with their other  15 relatives of origin the Wolf (Eagle)/Fireweed  16 people.  The Portland Canal people to the west  17 did not become a factor in Gitskan history until  18 quite recent times."  19  20 Now, in my mind when I think of Portland Canal and  21 what you've just been describing as the Tahltan, can  22 you sort of clarify why you refer to the Portland  23 Canal there and what that connection is?  24 A  Well, these people here are the people that they  25 maintain relations with the Tahltan and through them  26 even as far north as the Kaska.  It was those people  27 that were pushed east by the -- by the Nisga to during  28 the fur trade period.  They are described as the  29 people of Sanik.  They are the ones that impinge upon  30 the Gitskan at a later date.  They are also Tsetsaut.  31 Q   Kaska is K-A-S-K-A.  Could you spell Sanik?  32 A   S-A-N-I-K.  33 Q   And this conclusion that you set out here is based on  34 your reading of the material; is that right, of the  35 adaawk and the oral histories?  36 A   Yes.  And in the case of the northern peoples also the  37 work of Tait and Emmons.  38 Q   I would just like to go back very briefly to Exhibit  39 1042, tab 13, my lord.  Here we talk about at the top  40 of page or partway down page 2 of Exhibit 1042-13 you  41 talk about the Gitskan Laxwiiyip relationship.  First  42 of all, above that you talk about the  43 Gitskan-Wet'suwet'en relationship and that's key  44 features that you found you concluded arose as a  45 result of that relationship in this era.  46 A   I'm sorry, what tab are we on?  47 MR. GRANT:  I'm sorry, tab 13.  I'm sorry, my lord, I may be 1717?  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Q  going too fast.  Do you have that?  The top of page 2?  Yes.  Yes.  THE  THE  THE  MR.  You talk about the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en Relationship?  Yes.  And under that you talk about the Gitskan-Laxwiiyip  Relationship.  These features on the right-hand side  are references to features that you've found occurring  at that time through the adaawk and the statements of  origin?  A   Yes, that will become apparent further on in the  evidence what I'm referring to there.  COURT:  If I was to try and pick a synonym for Laxwiiyip,  another name for them.  We haven't heard of them until  your evidence I don't think.  WITNESS:  They would probably have been referred to by  Tsetsaut, by the term Tsetsaut.  The northern  Laxwiiyip that we've been talking about.  Okay.  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  A  Q  A  But this is a -- you refer to them as Laxwiiyip  because it is such an earlier time before?  No, that term comes and goes through time.  And part  of Laxwiiyip is Tahltan and part is Tsetsaut, also  depending on the time period you are talking about.  I'm sorry, when you said that term comes and goes  through time, are you referring to Laxwiiyip or  Tsetsaut?  Laxwiiyip.  Now, just at the bottom there you have  Gitskan-Tsetsaut distinction (proto) and Gitskan-Nisga  distinction (proto).  What are you referring to there?  What is a proto?  Proto what?  I'm sorry, do you  follow me there?  I mean the beginning of the distinction between these  peoples.  The first indication in the adaawk of them  seeing themselves as separate peoples.  And then when you said some of this notation will come  up later, you are referring to the parenthetical  remark relating to:  "Prior to Wiixa, W-I-I-X-A, Gwashlaam and  Xamlaxyeltxw Luuxoon founding of Gitanyaaw -  Wiixa left of coast prior to Ts'iibasaa's arrival  there." 17179  S. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2 That's something you deal with in more detail there  3 later in your evidence.  4 A   Yes.  5 MR. GRANT:  My lord, it is a convenient time to break.  6 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  We will start at 9:30 in the  7 morning.  8 MR. GRANT:  Thank you, my lord.  9 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until  10 9:30 tomorrow.  11 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO JUNE 8, 198 9)  12  13  14  15 I hereby certify the foregoing to  16 be a true and accurate transcript  17 of the proceedings herein to the  18 best of my skill and ability.  19  20  21  22 LISA FRANKO, OFFICIAL REPORTER  23 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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