16931 Discussion 1 Vancouver, B. C. 2 June 5, 198 9. 3 THE REGISTRAR: In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, this 4 5th day of June, 1989. In the matter of Delgamuukw 5 versus Her Majesty the Queen at bar, my lord. 6 MR. GRANT: Yes, my lord. 7 Before commencing with the first witness, there was 8 a matter I wish to raise. 9 There has been communications by Mr. Rush to the 10 provincial defendants, it's now -- my lord, it's now 11 June 5th and if all unfolds as one would hope and we, 12 in maintaining that position, the defendants would be 13 starting less than 30 days from now, I believe July 14 4th is the first working day of the month of July. 15 Given the comments of your lordship, on June 2nd Mr. 16 Rush requested once again of Mr. Goldie that he advise 17 us who his lay witness is, if he intends -- and who 18 they intend to call in the month of July. This is a 19 problem for the plaintiffs and I understand that your 20 lordship made two rulings during the last month 21 dealing with this, one was that there would be 120 22 days' notice of expert reports, Mr. Farley's report, 23 and in fact his identification was given less than 120 24 days before they indicated they would call him, and 25 Mr. Goldie -- it was suggested to him that he go back 26 and re-assess. And also we have not yet been advised 27 of the lay witnesses they would call, which Mr. Goldie 28 said would take one week's time in the month of July. 29 We have no -- I would ask that my friend refer to 30 this. 31 THE COURT: Mr. Willms? 32 MR. WILLMS: There is a letter that went out June 2nd to Mr. 33 Rush advising who the first witness would be and that 34 the balance of the month would be lay witnesses. In 35 light of Mr. Rush's position with respect to Dr. 36 Farley -- and I just would like to say, there has been 37 no 120 day rule, this has been raised by my friends. 38 It's 60 days, not 120 days. 39 THE COURT: I don't think I made a 120 day ruling. 40 MR. GRANT: My understanding is that there was notice of 41 intention to call an expert and a summary of their 42 opinion, 120 days, and that goes back to the time when 43 you required the plaintiffs to tender reports, 44 summaries, not the report, summaries, then the report 45 itself is to be tendered 60 days before. And that is 46 what we are referring to. We are referring back to in 47 November, 1986 when that direction was made and I 16932 Discussion 1 dealt with it. So it was notice as to who the witness 2 was. 3 THE COURT: You people have the advantage over me. I don't 4 remember all those matters. 5 MR. GRANT: And I don't have the — 6 THE COURT: I would have to see it. I know that when Mr. Rush 7 made that suggestion, quite recently, there was 8 vigorous shaking of heads on the -- at the defence 9 tables and I don't recall whether Mr. Rush is right or 10 the naysayers are right, but I know that it's a live 11 issue of dispute. It seems to me to be highly 12 desirable that as much notice be given as is possible, 13 even if there isn't such a rule, and I would think 14 that we are at the stage now where notice should be 15 given as to who the witnesses will be in conformity 16 with whatever practice was followed with respect to 17 the plaintiffs' witnesses. 18 MR. GRANT: My friend just handed me a copy of a letter, which 19 is dated June 2nd. Mr. Rush and I met on June 2nd and 20 neither of us -- I have not seen this letter until 21 just now. But in this letter Mr. Goldie indicates 22 their first witness will be called on June 10th, and 23 his name is Dr. Steciw, Igor Sticiw. I am sorry, July 24 lOthe. And a summary of his evidence is going to be 25 given 14 days prior to his appearance. Now, I am not 26 certain, and my friend may clarify, whether that is a 27 witness that will take five days. They indicated 28 their one lay witness would -- 29 THE COURT: Is this a lay witness? 30 MR. WILLMS: It is a lay witness, my lord, and it is anticipated 31 approximately three, three to four days. 32 THE COURT: Why July 10th? Is there something to be done before 33 that date in July? 34 MR. WILLMS: My lord, we have looked at a number of things which 35 we have called loose ends and we have identified loose 36 ends which will take a period of time. We understand 37 that my friends at the end of their case have got 38 loose ends they want to deal with and some of them 39 were highlighted earlier. We are anticipating that 40 that four day week starting at the beginning of July, 41 will be taken up with either the plaintiffs' finish 42 loose ends or the defendants beginning loose ends. 43 THE COURT: All right. Well, I have to ask that you review the 44 record of rulings made, both of you, and ensure that 45 you are complying with whatever rules apply to the 46 plaintiffs should apply equally to the defendants. I 47 am sure that will be accomplished. Have you been able 16933 Discussion 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. THE COURT MR. GRANT MR. GRANT THE COURT MR. GRANT to give some re-consideration to the question of calling this -- is it Dr. Farley? Is that his name? WILLMS: Yes, the -- my understanding, my lord, is that Mr. Rush was taking a time limit position with Dr. Farley so we have put Dr. Farley over to the fall. I see. Thank you. Mr. Grant? Just to clarify, I think my friend indicated that the balance of July would be lay witnesses? MR. WILLMS: As presently advised, my lord, that's the plan. THE COURT: Thank you. Perhaps counsel might give some thought to whether, depending on atmospheric conditions, to start earlier and have a longer morning and not sit into the hot hours of the afternoon. But I will -- I would be grateful if counsel would do that. It has been done in other cases that sit in the summer. Are you talking this week or in July? No, July. There is only one other matter, my lord, which is a problematic matter that I wish to raise. I wanted to advise your lordship of the situation that there has been no finalization with respect to or confirmation, aside from some assurances which -- regarding the issues that Mr. Rush raised, and you commented on some weeks ago. I have not been in court because I have been working with our clients to get that matter resolved and have insisted it should be resolved as of last Friday. So we had the predicament, the -- as you recall we had scheduled until -- witnesses until the end of this week. There are two other witnesses who should to be completed, Ms. Lane I think next week, who I think is two to three days, if I recall correctly, on cross. Yes. And Mr. Galois I think is two to three days in the following week. I emphasize that given the unpredictability of everything, to those -- we are dealing with that, we can't even make a decision on final witnesses this month. And I was last advised late on Friday that nothing could be finalized until the end of this week and I said that is not very satisfactory but I would advise your lordship of that fact because I wanted to tell you what our plan was for the balance of this month, and I wished -- that's all I can say about it. THE COURT: All right. Thank you. MR.GRANT: I would like to call Ms. Susan Marsden to the stand. THE COURT MR. GRANT 16934 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In Chief of Qualifications by Mr. Grant 1 SUSAN MARSDEN, a witness 2 called on behalf of the 3 plaintiffs, after first 4 being duly sworn, 5 testified as follows: 6 7 THE REGISTRAR: Would you state your full name, please, and 8 spell your last name? 9 A Susan Margaret Marsden, M-A-R-S-D-E-N. 10 11 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF ON QUALIFICATIONS BY MR. GRANT: 12 13 MR. GRANT: My lord, as you may recall, Ms. Marsden is scheduled 14 to give evidence this week and I am tendering her as 15 an expert witness to give opinion evidence on the 16 history of the Gitksan and, as an aside, to the extent 17 that it is relevant, and related groups, based on 18 their oral histories or Adaawk, including opinion 19 evidence on the history of the migrations of the 20 Gitksan, the major historical events -- and I use that 21 word in terms of oral history -- major historical 22 events, both pre- and post-contact, and the 23 development of the laws and the socio-political 24 institutions, through the -- through their history. 25 And fifthly, the evolution of the institutions of 26 the Gitksan society, as revealed through their Adaawk; 27 and sixthly, the naming and ownership of fishing sites 28 based on the Adaawk. And I should say, when I say 29 based on the Adaawk, I include other ethnographic 30 material. 31 I would like to commence by tendering to -- a 32 document book, number one, and if you could put that 33 in front of the witness. 34 Before I commence with the exhibiting of anything, 35 my lord, Mr. Rush requested that I reserve the next 36 four exhibit numbers for the Barbara Lane document 37 books. 38 THE COURT: Where will that take us to? The last I have is 39 1037. 40 THE REGISTRAR: That's right. 1038 to 1041? 41 THE COURT: So 1041 — 1042 will be the next. 42 MR. GRANT: 1042. 43 THE COURT: You want this book marked 1042? 44 MR. GRANT: Yes. And this book, I raised it with the new madam 45 registrar, some of the document books are put into our 46 group of documents can be dealt with conveniently as 47 one, but I would ask that when they go as tab 1, they 16935 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In Chief of Qualifications by Mr. Grant 1 could be referred to on the exhibit list separately. 2 But this could be marked as a separate exhibit, 1042. 3 4 (EXHIBIT 1042: SUSAN MARSDEN BOOK OF DOCUMENTS) 5 6 MR. GRANT: 7 Q Ms. Marsden, could you look at tab 1 of the document 8 in front of you? Is that your curriculum vitae? 9 A Yes, it is. 10 Q Now, you have a honours degree in -- a bachelor of 11 arts in philosophy that you obtained in 1969? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And that was a four-year programme in Ontario which 14 you did after grade 13? 15 A That's correct. 16 Q And you were halfway through your course work towards 17 a master of arts degree? 18 A That's what I honours programme was in those days. 19 Q And during the course of your school studies at the 20 University of Toronto you took one course in the field 21 of anthropology? 22 A Yes, I did. 23 Q And you in -- in that you did look at what can be 24 called myths in that course, as part of your own work? 25 A Yes, I wrote papers on mythology. 26 Q After the completion of your bachelor of arts and your 27 honours degree you moved to Vancouver where you worked 28 for a year and then you took an interim programme for 29 a teacher's certificate in 1971; is that right? 30 A Yes. 31 Q And from 1971 through '72, in that school year, you 32 taught -- you applied for a job through the Department 33 of Indian Affairs and you taught at Kitwancool? 34 A That's correct. 35 Q Kitwancool, which is the Gitksan village north of 36 Kitwanga? 37 A Yes. 38 Q And you taught four to seven at that time? 39 Now can you just tell his lordship why you applied 40 to teach that Indian community through the department? 41 A I was interested in being in another culture. 42 Q And you returned to Vancouver in 1972 and '73, and 43 completed your -- obtained your permanent teacher's 44 certificate in 1974; is that right? 45 A Yes, that's correct. 46 Q And from 19 -- and subsequent to that, you taught -- 47 and I am going to page 2 of the curriculum vitae, my 16936 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In Chief of Qualifications by Mr. Grant 1 lord, you taught grade one at Kitsegukla Indian day 2 school for '74 and 75? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And during the course of that teaching, you met a 5 linguist, Mr. Braithwaite? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q Who was dealing with Gitksan orthography? 8 A That's right. 9 Q From 1975 to 1978 you were the programme co-ordinator 10 for the Terrace School District on a native studies 11 curriculum development? 12 A That's right. 13 Q Now, prior to you taking that job on had you done any 14 study on your own of the Gitksan -- of the Gitksan 15 culture? 16 A When I was hired by the Department of Indian Affairs 17 they encouraged me to teach Indian content and so when 18 I first started in Kitwancool I acquainted myself with 19 all of the published sources on north coast culture 20 and specifically on Gitksan culture. And when I moved 21 to Kitsegukla I was involved in staff meetings where I 22 tried to encourage other teachers to do the same. And 23 out of those discussions came the idea on the part of 24 the principal, and he discussed it with other 25 administrators, and they created the position of 26 developing the curriculum so that other people could 27 use it also. 28 Q That's the position you took in that three year 29 period? 30 A That's correct. 31 Q What were some of the materials you looked at prior to 32 1975 or familiarized yourself with on the Gitksan 33 society? You said the published materials. 34 A Well, that was before a lot of the key texts on north 35 coast culture were out of print. I bought everything 36 that the Queen's Printer had published by Barbeau and 37 I had bought second hand copies of all the of the Boas 38 relevant texts and I brought Drucker. Those are 39 basically the -- 40 Q Did you familiarize yourself with Barbeau's Totem 41 Poles of the Gitksan? 42 A Yes, that was a key one. 43 Q And his book downfall of Temlaham? 44 A Yes. That one was out of print. I had that one 45 Xeroxed for me. 46 Q Why do you say Totem Poles of the Gitksan was a key 47 one? 16937 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In Chief of Qualifications by Mr. Grant 1 A Because in that one Barbeau coordinates his summary of 2 his reading of the Adaawk that relate to the Gitksan, 3 with the relationship to the crests on the totem 4 poles. 5 Q Did you utilize this material in your own teaching 6 prior to 1975? 7 A Yes, I did. 8 Q Now, I am just going to go in this period of time from 9 when you first went to Kitwancool in '75 and cover 10 some other aspects of your learning then. Did you 11 participate in community events? 12 A This is prior to becoming the programme co-ordinator? 13 Q Yes. 14 A Yes, as soon as I moved to Kitwancool I started to 15 become involved in the community. 16 Q Did you attend feasts? 17 A Yes, feasts and various other social gatherings at the 18 hall. 19 Q You, between -- during that time period you married 20 Barry Marsden; is that correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And he is the son of Solomon Marsden? 23 A That's correct. 24 Q Did you spend time with Solomon and his wife, Kathleen 25 Marsden, at that time, before 1975? 26 A Yes, I did. There were times when we were sharing the 27 same house; there were other times when we visited 28 them a lot. 29 Q Did Solomon talk to you about the Gitksan society? 30 A Well, I was particularly interested in learning how to 31 pronounce the Indian words in totem poles of the 32 Gitksan and that's when I started talking to him about 33 it. He taught me how to pronounce them and started to 34 explain to me who the people were who held those names 35 and then when I went to feasts I saw those people in 36 the feasts in interacting and using their names. That 37 is when I began to understand how the system was 38 working. 39 Q Did you know Fred Good? 40 A Yes, I did. 41 Q And he is now deceased? 42 A Yes. 43 Q And he is an elder of Kitwancool? 44 A Yes, he was a very respected elder. 45 Q Did you have him participate in your school, in your 46 classes? 47 A Yes, we -- the Christmas concert is always a big event 16938 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In Chief of Qualifications by Mr. Grant 1 in the villages and I asked him if he would teach the 2 students in my class an Indian dance and he taught 3 them the war dance with the Ts'set'aut and they 4 performed it. 5 Q And did you learn about the feast through your 6 participation in it and through what you were told by 7 Gitksan elders? 8 A That was the beginning of my understanding of the 9 feast when I realized that the giving out of gifts was 10 in payment for services and when I received money and 11 objects, that I was being paid to witness events. 12 Q I would like to go back to your curriculum vitae now 13 and to your work as the programme co-ordinator with 14 the district staff. 15 My lord, I put some detail on page 3 of the bottom 16 on her professional experience and this follows up 17 from the programme co-ordinator position. 18 You you actually were involved in curriculum 19 development in the School District 88 in 1975 and '78, 20 and then in 1980-'81 with the implementation of that 21 curriculum development; is that right? 22 A That is correct. It became apparent that the simply 23 producing items that children could use wasn't 24 sufficient and after trying the programme out we 25 decided that they needed more specific instructions to 26 the teachers themselves on how to use the objects in 27 the kits and that is when I went back in '80-'81. 28 Q Now -- but the first part, the goals that are set out 29 at the bottom of page 3, those were the goals in your 30 work in curriculum development which was to introduce 31 courses and lesson units on Gitksan and north coast 32 native history, culture, language and art into the 33 schools and School District 88 and in Kispiox, 34 Kitsegukla and Kitwancool? 35 A Yes, that's right. The programme was a joint school 36 district and Department of Indian Affairs programme. 37 Q The Department of Indian Affairs at that time ran the 38 schools in those three villages? 39 A That's right. 40 Q Now, in the course of your research -- now, you have, 41 on page four, research, at this time were you involved 42 yourself in researching as part of your preparation 43 for the curriculum development? 44 A Yes. Yes, there was an intensive period of research. 45 Q And amongst other -- you have listed a large number of 46 items there, but amongst other things you researched 47 the relationship of the people of the north Pacific 16939 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In Chief of Qualifications by Mr. Grant 1 coast and the Gitksan to their environment, North 2 Coast and Gitksan History, and the Political and 3 Economic System of the Gitksan and the people of the 4 North Pacific Coast, trade war between Tsimshian, 5 Gitksan and Nishga. In that research did you rely on 6 the Barbeau Totem Poles of the Gitksan? 7 A Yes, I did. 8 Q And what else did you -- other kinds of things were 9 you looking at in this area of your own work? 10 A Well, I contacted the key institutions that had 11 information and what was only available at the time 12 was primarily photographs, and I collected a large 13 number of those, and also articles, various articles 14 in the archives which I collected and put together in 15 three volumes for use by other people as well. I had 16 some assistance from Marjorie Halpin at that time. I 17 think it was then that I first received her thesis. 18 Q And she is an anthropologist at UBC? 19 A That's correct. 20 Q And did you have any contact at this time with Wilson 21 Duff? 22 A Yes, I went to see him in his office at UBC. 23 Q And did you have contact at this time with Bruce 24 Rigsby? 25 A I am not sure of the time period but, yes, he was 26 involved in developing the programmes for the students 27 in the area. 28 Q So it would have been at the time of the curriculum 29 development or immediately before; is that right? 30 A I am not sure exactly when he was working up there 31 intensively but it was at the same time that I was 32 doing work on Indian studies. 33 Q You then set out, at the bottom of page four, as part 34 of your research, the sources that you went to and you 35 refer to elders from Kispiox, Kitsegukla, Kitwanga, 36 Kitwancool and Hazelton, and you list the UBC Museum 37 of Anthropology and Department of Anthropology and the 38 Department of Ethnology at Victoria and the National 39 Museum of Canada, as well as others, Gitksan 40 Association and the School of Art. Did you go to all 41 of these sources in developing this material? 42 A Yes. 43 Q In the course of developing this material, Ms. 44 Marsden, did this assist you in understanding the oral 45 histories or the role of the oral histories of the 46 Gitksan? 47 A Yes. 16940 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In Chief of Qualifications by Mr. Grant 1 Q On pages four, the very bottom is the title and on 2 page five is a listing of items that you used, that 3 were produced for the native studies course and these 4 were kits that you developed; is that right? 5 A Yes, there were two kits. 6 Q Then on page six you go to other materials and one of 7 the -- the third item -- the second item is the 8 articles on the Gitksan and Tsimshian, and that's what 9 you have already referred to in evidence that you put 10 those together? 11 A Yes, yes. 12 Q And the next item is Social Organization of the 13 Gitksan, an adaptation of Marius Barbeau's Totem Poles 14 of the Gitksan, who put that together? 15 A I did that. 16 Q Could you refer to tab 3 of the document book? Is 17 this the material that you put together, 18 Reorganization of Sections of Totem Poles of the 19 Gitksan? 20 A Yes. I was doing that to try and -- The Totem Poles 21 of the Gitksan has an awful lot of information and 22 it's not always easy -- you end up flipping from one 23 page to the other a lot, and I was trying to organize 24 the information so I could get a sense of the movement 25 over time of the various groups of chiefs. Not all of 26 it is my reorganization. The second section is 27 straight out of Barbeau. 28 Q Can you just refer us to what the heading is there? 29 A The charts, the charts were my reorganization, that's 30 the first section. And then Gitksan Crests As 31 Illustrated On Totem Poles, classified list according 32 to types, that's straight out of Barbeau. I produced 33 this for teachers to use as a resource and then the 34 final section that are charts of basically just a 35 summary of another section out of Barbeau. 36 Q Okay. Do you still find this useful as a -- when you 37 are going back to the totem poles? 38 A I don't use this now. I think I have -- most of this 39 I have in my head now and I change -- I have changed 40 some of my opinions since then. 41 Q But this was given to the Terrace School District and 42 distributed amongst teachers? 43 A Yes, and the final section is student activities 44 suggestions and I felt that teachers would take this 45 and develop classroom activities but it proved to be 46 too difficult for them. 47 Q Now, you were involved as well -- and back to your 16941 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In Chief of Qualifications by Mr. Grant 1 curriculum vitae, tab 1, page six -- in this work you 2 were involved as well in the working on button 3 blankets for school performances as part of other 4 materials produced? 5 A No, I made a button blanket at that time myself for my 6 mother-in-law. 7 Q And who did you seek advice from on that? 8 A She had a photograph of exactly what she wanted and I 9 just blew it up on a sketch and did it with my sister- 10 in-law. 11 Q Now, on page seven of your curriculum vitae you set 12 out the position you took in 1980-'81, in terms of 13 curriculum implementation, and there as the goal sets 14 out, in your curriculum vitae, is to implement the 15 materials detailed above through consultation with 16 teachers and through the development of grade specific 17 teacher's guide, a half-time position, and you did 18 that work in the years 1980-'81? 19 A Yes, I produced grades specific guides. 20 Q And that's set out on the balance of that detail? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Did you take a language course in Gitksan language and 23 orthography at this time? 24 A Yes, Russell Stephens was teaching an evening course 25 on basicaly using Rigsby's dictionary. 26 Q Did you have, at this period of time did you 27 correspond with George McDonald at the National Museum 28 of Man? 29 A Yes, I did. I had received a bibliography from 30 Dorothy Kennedy, they had an institute at that time, 31 they had a very complete bibliography, and it 32 indicated that there were significant materials in 33 Ottawa that weren't published and had never been 34 published, on which Barbeau had based his published 35 books, and I felt that there was -- I could tell from 36 the fact, the conclusions that Barbeau had come to in 37 Totem Poles of the Gitksan that he had a wealth of 38 data that he had been working with. And I wrote to 39 George McDonald asking if that was available and he 40 wrote back and said no, it wasn't available at the 41 time. 42 Q Prior to your preparation of your report, you had an 43 opportunity to review that material? 44 A Yes, I had. 45 Q Did you learn about tumpline weaving and basket 46 weaving, that is, the traditional Gitksan weaving? 47 A The yes, Aggie Good, the wife of Fred Good, taught a 16942 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In Chief of Qualifications by Mr. Grant 1 course in Kitwancool in tumpline weaving which I took, 2 and Edith Campbell taught a course on two types of 3 basket weaving and Aggie Good taught a course on moose 4 hoop basket weaving which I also took. 5 Q Have you been adopted into a Gitksan house? 6 A Yes, when I married Barry I was adopted so that my 7 children would be part of the system. 8 Q And you have two daughters of that marriage? 9 A Yes, I do. 10 Q And you were adopted by Godfrey Good? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And his chief's name is Gwinuu? 13 A Gwinuu. 14 Q Now, are you familiar with these typed versions of the 15 Gitksan Adaawk, and they are in a series of -- they 16 are put together or were put together by Barbeau by 17 clan, I believe one is called Raven Clan Outlaws, the 18 other is Gwenoot of Alaska, and another is called the 19 Wolf Clan Invaders and the other is called Temlaham, 20 The Land of Plenty; are you familiar with those? 21 A Yes. 22 Q At the time you were doing this curriculum development 23 work had you had an opportunity to review those? 24 A No, those were among the things listed in the 25 bibliography I referred to and they were not 26 available. 27 Q Okay. At the time you had read Totem Poles of the 28 Gitksan, were you aware of -- did you become aware of 29 the existence of this body of Adaawk? 30 A Not those specific titles but I knew that the Totem 31 Poles of the Gitksan was based on a body of 32 information much greater than the book itself. 33 Q Did you get -- are you aware of a book or of a 34 transcription called the Men of Madiik and the Wars of 35 Madiik? 36 A Yes. 37 Q And can you tell the court what that is and when you 38 first had an opportunity to review that? 39 A When I was doing the research for the curriculum work 40 a friend of mine wrote The History of Terrace, Nadine 41 Santee, and she had a copy of Men of Madiik, which was 42 out of print at the time which she showed me, and she 43 told me that she had tracked down the sequel to that, 44 Wars of Madiik, and had been in touch with the heirs 45 of Gordon Robinson who wrote that with Walter Wright 46 and that she had gotten The Wars of Madiik from them 47 and she had sent it to a publisher in Vancouver 16943 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In Chief of Qualifications by Mr. Grant because she felt it was a very significant work, and there it had stayed for a year. And I contacted them and asked them if they were planning on doing anything with it and if we could have a copy. : That's already been marked as an exhibit, my lord, and I will give you the exhibit number in a moment. It's in the Daly document book. We will be referring to that later in evidence. : All right. Thank you. At that time, in this period of development of the curriculum development that you were doing, you had an opportunity to read The Men of Madiik and The Wars of Madiik? Yes. And what did it assist you in in terms of your understanding of the oral histories? Well, it was the first time that I realized that what a complete Adaawk was, because he started from the beginning of memory to -- and it ends with the first gun and that's what so exciting about it, it's one house's complete Adaawk recorded carefully over a long period of time, and the involvement of Gordon Robinson, who was non-Indian, can be seen in the fact that he was continually asking him about the time depth and that's the only -- the only Adaawk that has that degree of comment about time passage between events, and it made me realize that later when I saw the other Adaawk, that it was almost unique. Referring to the other Adaawks, you are referring to the ones that were in these compilations of Barbeau that I referred to? Correct. That is Exhibit 898. Thank you. And that's in the evidence of Dr. Daly? It's in the evidence of Dr. Daly. We put in the entire Men of Madiik, it's entitled Madiik by Will Robinson as told by Walter Wright. Is this the Madiik that you are referring to? Right. Sorry, I have been saying Gordon Robinson, he is Gitksan. Will Robinson, yes. All right. Now, going back, if I can, to your CV, in the period between 1978 and 1980, you taught kindergarten at Kitwanga Elementary School, this was a provincial school in the Kitwanga Valley; is that correct? That's right. I wanted to take that year off, 1 2 3 4 5 MR. GRANT 6 7 8 9 THE COURT 10 MR. GRANT 11 Q 12 13 14 15 A 16 Q 17 18 A 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 Q 31 32 33 A 34 MR. GRANT 35 THE COURT 36 MR. GRANT 37 38 39 Q 40 A 41 42 Q 43 44 45 46 47 A 16944 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In Chief of Qualifications by Mr. Grant 1 actually, and continue the curriculum development work 2 on my own since the funding had stopped, but I was 3 asked to teach the kindergarten. 4 Q Did you continue your own work on your own time with 5 respect to looking at the Gitksan -- the documents on 6 Gitksan for curriculum development? 7 A At that time I was more involved in community events 8 in terms of getting -- we set up a programme for the 9 elders to pass on the songs, to teach the songs to the 10 younger people. That was when the button blanket 11 programme was set up for other people to learn how to 12 do it. I helped my in-laws in terms of funding for 13 various community projects that they were interested 14 in. 15 Q Okay. Now, if I look down on page 2 and top of page 16 3, under the heading Conference Presentations, you 17 were involved in a presentation in 1970 on native 18 studies and curriculum development, Telling Our Own 19 Story, and that was a presentation you gave with 20 respect to developing Indian curriculum for B. C. 21 schools? 22 A Yes, that was a major curriculum conference. Probably 23 the last one of its kind. 24 Q And then you were involved in another conference in 25 teaching reading. And going to the next page, three, 26 in 1983 did you -- you gave a presentation at a 27 Gitksan language programmes conference? 28 A Yes. 2 9 Q What was your involvement in that? 30 A It was basically showing the ways of establishing the 31 programmes and setting up the funding and helping the 32 linguists to -- the native linguists to develop 33 useable class lessons. 34 Q And then there is a series of two conferences 35 sponsored by the International Visual Literacy 36 Association, one at which you gave a presentation 37 called The Totem Pole As Recorded History. Who was 38 this conference presented to? 39 A Well, it was a real mixture of people attending that. 40 There were people in the media fields, people in the 41 arts and there were anthropologists. 42 Q And what was your presentation? Can you just expand a 43 bit on what you were talking about? 44 A Well, the focus of the Visual Literacy Society is that 45 information can be encoded in images and I was -- I 46 explained how the image on the totem pole reflects 47 back to a whole wealth of information that is verbal 16945 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In Chief of Qualifications by Mr. Grant but that in the societies where the totem pole, of which the society -- of which the totem pole is a part, those images are much more than they are to people outside of the society. They encode the information that they know in other ways. Q And then there was a second conference a year later in 1982 on the Totem Pole, The Symbol Of The Sacred Centre, I should say the conference was Seeing Ourselves and you gave that presentation? A Yes. Q Was it an expansion on the same topic? A Basically, with the additional theme that the pole is a shamanic symbol in other cultures as well. Q Once again, going to your professional experience, page 2, you taught in 1982, you have as a lecturer of the Simon Fraser University Native Education Programme, developing native cultural resources -- and just for your lordship, there is a reference to appendix one, that appendix isn't attached. It's not there. You can just delete that reference. All right. THE COURT MR. GRANT Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Can you explain what you did in that course? Who you were teaching and what -- I was asked to come down and give a half day workshop on developing curriculum in native studies and this was a teacher education programme in Prince Rupert sponsored by Simon Fraser University. And as a result, the students were so positive about that half day workshop that they asked for a course and Simon Fraser set up a course in their programme and asked me to teach it. And we covered, basically, the same spectrum of things that I had done when I was doing curriculum development from the basic original anthropological sources right through to the kinds of things they could do in the classroom to indicate this . How many students did you have? Probably around 12, I think. And that was a course leading to a teaching degree; is that right? Yes, that's right. It was part of the course leading to a teaching degree? That's right. Are a number of your students now involved in native education for the -- 16946 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In Chief of Qualifications by Mr. Grant 1 A Yes, in fact the prominent native people in Prince 2 Rupert in the education field were in that course. 3 Q Now, between 1981 and 1984 you taught grade four and 4 five at Kitwanga Elementary Secondary School, that's 5 the school in Kitwanga Valley between Kitwanga and 6 Kitwancool? 7 A That's right. 8 Q You also have there you were co-ordinator of the 9 curriculum committee of intermediate and secondary 10 school studies. What was your involvement, what did 11 you do there that bears on your work here? 12 A The implementation of native studies in the classroom 13 is an ongoing thing, especially in the north with new 14 teachers coming all the time it was necessary to 15 continue working with individual teachers, and that's 16 what I did. 17 Q So it was a continuation of your previous work? 18 A That's right. 19 Q Now, you have mentioned some of the people that you 20 have -- I am talking here about Gitksan elders that 21 you -- that very told you about the Gitksan and that 22 assisted you in your knowledge and awareness, you have 23 mentioned Solomon Marsden, Maggie Good and Fred Good, 24 did you talk with other elders or did other elders 25 talk to you over the course of your time from 1971 on 26 to 1984 about the Gitksan system? 27 A Well, I was always involved with the elders in the 28 programmes that I was developing and working on and 29 there were always discussions happening. 30 Q Did you -- did those elders that you -- that 31 consulted, that talked to you and you consulted, did 32 they include Kathleen Matthews? 33 A Yes, well I became friends with Kathleen Matthews as 34 well, that family. 35 Q And Art Matthews senior? 36 A Art Matthews senior and junior. 37 Q Glen Williams? 38 A Yes. 39 Q Stanley Williams? 40 A Yes. And Edith Gawa in Kispiox, I worked with her a 41 lot. 42 Q Vincent Gogag and Godfrey Good and Aggie Good in 43 Kitwancool? 44 A Yes, Godfred Good is Ginuu. 45 Q He is the chief that adopted you? 46 A Yes. 47 Q Mary McKenzie, Olive Ryan, Jeff Harris senior? 16947 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In Chief of Qualifications by Mr. Grant 1 A Yes, Mary McKenzie was working at Xsan at the time. 2 Q David Milton, chief from Kitsegukla? 3 A Yes, he was involved with the singing, teaching the 4 students accidents to sing Indian songs. 5 Q Mary Johnson, Edith Campbell and the late Jeffery 6 Morgan? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Now, in your curriculum vitae you set out that between 9 1984 and 1987 you were a research programme 10 co-ordinator with the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en Tribal 11 Council and this is when you were working with the 12 Tribal Council? 13 A Yes. 14 Q In the year 19 — from July '83 to July, 1984, did you 15 work on a volunteer basis as -- in your own time, on 16 research relating to your subsequent work on this 17 report? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And what did you do in that period of time? 20 A I started because Glen Williams knew that I had 21 historical photographs of poles that were no longer 22 standing and he had asked if he could have copies of 23 them and through our discussion I suggested that it 24 would be good to do a catalogue of all the totem poles 25 standing and photographed in previous times and I 26 offered to do that. That was the first thing I did. 27 And I did that for Kispiox and Kitwancool and 2 8 Kitwanga. And then he was working with the Tribal 29 Council at the time and John Cove had sent those 30 volumes you referred to before to the Tribal Council 31 and he showed those to me. And he showed those to me 32 because he knew I was really interested in them. And 33 I copied a few and took them home and when I started 34 reading them I was struck by the wealth of detail and 35 information in them and I went back to him and showed 36 him and at the time what he was working on a mapping 37 project and the information in the Adaawk corelated 38 with what he had been researching among the people at 39 the time and he became excited by the fact that there 40 was so much information in them also and we -- from 41 that evolved the position of working with the Adaawk 42 and organizing them in such a way that the information 43 would be useful. 44 Q Okay. Now you referred to these binders, you are 45 referring to the binders of the Raven Clans, Outlaws 46 and the other clans? 47 A Yes, the four clans. 16948 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In Chief of Qualifications by Mr. Grant 1 Q Had you, when you started to read those, at that time 2 had you heard any versions of Adaawk in your 3 discussions with elders that you saw reflected in 4 these Adaawk? 5 A Yes, I had. 6 Q Between 1984 and 1987, you did research that 7 ultimately culminated in your report that you 8 presented, that we are presenting to the court? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And did you do work in organizing the Adaawk for 11 counsel? 12 A Yes, I did. 13 THE COURT: I am not sure I understand what the Adaawk was that 14 was organized for counsel. 15 MR. GRANT: Thank you, my lord. 16 Q Maybe you can just expand what you did and what Adaawk 17 you referred to. What versions or -- 18 A I first went through all of the volumes and pulled out 19 those Adaawk that appeared to relate to the Gitksan 20 and then using the -- either the clear statement of 21 the informant as to who owned the Adaawk or using 22 clues at the top or using my own knowledge, I 23 organized those Adaawk so that they -- so that they 24 were in sections by chief. And then I summarized, I 25 started summarizing them and using a column at the 26 side where I referred to the information in the 27 paragraph opposite that was relevant to a chief's 28 possessions, his territory, his crests, his personal 29 names and his regalia. And I coordinated that with 30 totem poles and other forms of the crests. 31 MR. WILLMS: My lord, I wonder, if my friend is finished 32 qualifying the witness, it seems he is straying into 33 the area of opinion or getting there right now, I 34 wonder if he has anything more on qualifications? 35 MR. GRANT: Yes, I do. I am not -- I am just introducing this 36 and possibly you could put in front of the witness, to 37 just -- I am not going to get into this at all on this 38 point, except to show what she is referring to. 39 Q Can you look at tab 1, for example, of this, which is 40 this document book is entitled The Adaawk, Summaries 41 of the Adaawk of the Ancient History of the Kisgaast. 42 Tab 1 has a type script Ancient History of Kisgaast it 43 says Adaawk number one, summary, and then there is 44 some names taken out on the left-hand side, that goes 45 for three pages, and then after that, immediately 46 after that, is a typed script, a different typed 47 script? 16949 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In Chief of Qualifications by Mr. Grant Yes. 1 A 2 Q 3 A 4 Q 5 6 A 7 THE COURT 8 MR. GRANT 9 THE COURT 10 MR. GRANT 11 12 13 A 14 Q 15 16 A 17 Q 18 19 20 A 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 Q 29 30 31 32 A 33 34 Q 35 36 37 THE COURT 38 MR. GRANT 39 40 41 Q 42 A 43 Q 44 45 46 47 And now the second typed script, is this the -- This is the original. That is the original from the binders in this case, Temlaham, The Land of Plenty? That's right. Where is that? It's tab 1, my lord, after three pages in. I see. Yes. It says, Gitksedzaw Village of the Nass. And that's the type script that you worked with from the -- from Barbeau's binders? That's right. And the first three pages is your summary of that Adaawk? That's right. Now, on the left-hand side -- the right-hand side, did you endeavour to be as close to what's actually said in the Adaawk? Yes, I did. I inserted the titles. I read all of the Adaawk relating to common events, and then derived a sequence from the total of the Adaawk dealing with those events and then divided them into discreet events in the proper sequence and then I labelled all of the Adaawk in the same way, between villages and events, between what happens in each of the versions of the Adaawk. So, for example, if you look at the first page of tab 2, which is Adaawk number 2 summary there is a part one there, War Between Villages there as well and so on? That's right. Not all versions have all the the parts in them. Can you go to the very front before tab 1 and there is a table of contents then a handwritten summary of maj or events. I am sorry, where are you again? I am at the very front of binder, my lord, ahead of tab 1, and eight pages in, the table of contents is two pages and then six page summary of major events. That is your summary of events, isn't it? Yes. And then there is a chart Ancient History of the Giskaast there, and on the left hand column you have -- well, you have the top, Adaawk number and it goes 1 to 34, this reflects all the Adaawk in this binder; is that right? 16950 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In Chief of Qualifications by Mr. Grant 1 A That's right, that was my numbering system. 2 Q And then down you have headings such as the first one 3 is War Between Two Villages and stars? 4 A The stars indicate that in those Adaawk that event is 5 discussed. 6 Q And you organized those headings, that's what you were 7 describing? 8 A Yes. 9 MR. GRANT: Possibly that binder can be -- the next number can 10 be reserved for it right now and we will deal with it, 11 tender it later. But it's in the sequence. 12 THE COURT: All right. 1042 for identification for now. 13 THE REGISTRAR: 1043. 14 THE COURT: 1043. I am sorry. 15 MR. WILLMS: My lord, I should state there are some objections 16 to some of the tabs in 1042, that I take we will deal 17 with when the time comes. 18 THE COURT: Yes, your friend said he wanted those tabs 19 individually marked. 20 MR. WILLMS: Yes. 21 MR. GRANT: Yes. I am going to deal with that particular binder 22 as a corpus and so on, my lord, but I will come to 23 that later. 24 Q Now, over and above these -- the published Adaawk, 25 that is, when I say published I am referring to the 26 Barbeau books that you got at that time, did you 27 during this period of time familiarize yourself with 28 any other Barbeau material that you had not looked at 29 before? 30 A Once I started working with the Tribal Council? 31 Q Yes. 32 A Yes, when I first started at the Tribal Council I went 33 to Ottawa to look at the Barbeau-Beynon files that 34 were still in notebook form and which had been 35 partially typed up. Some of them had been typed up, 36 and they were two to three tall filing cabinets worth 37 of files and I was there for a couple of days and I 38 looked at as much as I could at that time and there 39 were limited access, there was limited access to 40 Xeroxing so I Xeroxed what I could at the time and 41 they were in the process of microfilming those and as 42 soon as they were available, which was probably within 43 the next few months, we ordered a set at Tribal 44 Council. 45 Q Can you look at tab 19 of Exhibit 1042, the same one 46 with your CV in it. Now, there is three types of 47 documents here, they are all entitled B-F 89.19. Now, 16951 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In Chief of Qualifications by Mr. Grant can you -- are these -- is this an example of the Barbeau files that you saw in Ottawa? Yes, the first section is Barbeau's own shorthand and there were only two women who could de-code this and they were the ones who typed the next version. That's — And both of these were, both of these are in the Museum of Civilization, as they call it now. The only words in these are the Indian words which he wrote in the -- I assume it's the International Linguistic System. It's not the writing system he used in his published accounts. And then the second one, when you use these, you have to really use them both because the Indian words are not always accurately typed. And it's important to go back to the originals. And they are side by side on the microfilm. And the third account of this one in particular was one that I did a -- I took the typed -- actually, I re-wrote the typewritten one and went back to the original and put in my spellings of the Indian words and somebody typed it for me. So if you -- if I was to go into the microfilm of Barbeau-Beynon or into these filing cabinets and looked at B. F. 89-.19, I would find this notebook as well as the second typed version? That's right. The second typed version? I am sorry, the second version, which is the first version that's typed. That's the one that has collection Marius Barbeau, Informant: Isaac Tens and Beynon? That's right. That's the first typed version? Yes. Now -- You edited that, did you? I didn't edit it, I wrote it out and I re-spelled the Indian terms using the first version. Is your version here? My version is the third one. But it's not edited, it's not a summary. I see. It's in the same tab. Yes, I think I have come to it. Yes, well, they have spelled, Spookw, S-P-O-Q, it looks like, and you have changed it to S-P-0-O-K-X. Right. There is no problem usinging the International 1 2 3 A 4 5 6 Q 7 A 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 Q 23 24 25 26 A 27 THE COURT: 28 MR. GRANT: 29 30 THE COURT: 31 32 A 33 THE COURT: 34 MR. GRANT: 35 Q 36 THE COURT: 37 A 38 39 THE COURT: 40 A 41 42 THE COURT: 43 MR. GRANT: 44 THE COURT: 45 46 47 A 16952 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In Chief of Qualifications by Mr. Grant Linguistic System except that typewriters don't have those letters on them. : And you have changed the names to modern spelling or current spelling? I tried to stay as close to the Rigsby -- : The Rigsby spelling? Yes. Just look at that second version, Ms. Marsden, like you have -- you say there, Gislagano's and above is written or printed -- handwritten, Niislaganoos, the first page, fourth line down? Yes. Is is that your handwritten addition there or would that be on the film? This isn't what I gave to the typist, but that's my handwriting. It was just for my own re-writing of the — All right. And this is the Barbeau-Beynon file B-F 89-19, The Myth of Spookw, and I would ask that it be marked as Exhibit 1042-19. 3: My lord, I hadn't seen Ms. Marsden's work here until this minute. And so I suggest that it be marked for identification to see whether anything turns on the fact that I didn't see it until this minute. Yes, all right. Yes. So this will be 1042 — 1042 (19) Yes. 1 2 3 THE COURT 4 5 A 6 THE COURT 7 A 8 MR. GRANT 9 Q 10 11 12 13 A 14 Q 15 16 A 17 18 19 Q 20 21 22 MR. WILLM 23 24 25 26 THE COURT 27 MR. GRANT 28 THE COURT 29 MR. GRANT 30 THE COURT 31 32 33 34 35 MR. GRANT 36 Q 37 38 A 39 Q 40 A 41 Q 42 43 A 44 45 46 47 (EXHIBIT 1042 (19) FOR IDENTIFICATION: B-F89.19 re SPOOKW) BARBEAU FILE Now, are you familiar with what's known as the Duff files? Yes, I am. Wilson Duff is now deceased, is that right? That's right. And he did -- did he do work with respect to the Barbeau files that you are familiar with? Yes, he went to Ottawa before Xeroxes and spent a year there working with these two original sources. Not all of the handwritten notes were typed but he worked with what was available then and he made summaries of the information basically using the same form of 16953 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In Chief of Qualifications by Mr. Grant organization but grouping the information more completely under the categories of, in the case of the coast Tsimshian, he used it, he did it by village and then he did village, origins, territories, personal names and crests, and among the Gitksan he did it by village, village and then clan so it would be Kispiox, Kisgaast, Kispiox and so on. I would ask if you look at the next document book, which refers to 13 of the Duff files, which are Duff files relating to the Gitksan. Is this the work that -- is this the Duff files that you reviewed relating to the Adaawk? Yes. : Is this meant to be all of them, my lord, or just the one that the witness selected? No. My lord, I am -- there is a second volume of this, I believe there is a total of 27 files relating to the Gitksan, plus, and the second volume is not yet bound and I will have it later today for my friends. This was disclosed to my friends, my recollection is two years ago, and it's the plaintiffs' list of documents 3271 since that time. Now, what I would like to ask you is: Did Duff deal with, in his -- the Duff files that relate to Barbeau and Beynon, did he deal with other than the Gitksan? Yes, as I said he did the coast Tsimshian and the Nishga as well. And this one reflects only some of the Gitksan ones, this particular binder. If you look at the table of contents it refers to it. Yes. Did you tell me he did 27 Gitksan studies or 13 Gitksan studies? There is 26 Gitksan files. 26? Yes. There will be a total of 27, as the Kitkatla file is going to be on the second document book. Did you review all of his files, that is the files relating to the coast Tsimshian as well? Yes, in my work with the Tribal Council, I did. And you familiarized yourself with his work with reference to the Barbeau-Beynon material. I used it extensively. Could we just reserve the next number for that please. The next number, actually. Yes, 1044 and 1045. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Q 9 10 11 12 13 A 14 MR. WILLMS 15 16 MR. GRANT: 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Q 25 26 27 A 28 29 Q 30 31 32 A 33 THE COURT: 34 35 MR. GRANT: 36 THE COURT: 37 MR. GRANT: 38 39 Q 40 41 A 42 Q 43 44 A 45 MR. GRANT: 46 47 THE COURT: 16954 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In Chief of Qualifications by Mr. Grant 1 MR. GRANT: All right. That will be the Duff files relating to 2 Gitksan. 3 Q Now, -- 4 THE COURT: Do you want to take the morning adjournment now, Mr. 5 Grant? 6 MR. GRANT: Yes. I am almost completed, my lord, but that would 7 be fine. 8 9 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A SHORT RECESS) 10 11 12 13 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 14 a true and accurate transcript of the 15 proceedings herein to the best of my 16 skill and ability. 17 18 19 20 21 22 Wilf Roy 23 Official Reporter 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 16955 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In chief on qualifications by Mr. Grant (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT) REGISTRAR: Order in court. THE THE MR. THE COURT: MR. GRANT: THE MR. MR. MR. GRANT MR. GRANT THE MR. MR. COURT: Mr. Grant. GRANT: My lord, I would ask that these be marked as the next series of exhibits. What I have, I can advise the Court, is an edited version of the Barbeau adaawk, which include those adaawk -- the original versions of those adaawk which relate to the Gitksan. And the next exhibit should be the "Gwenhoot of Alaska". I'm sorry? The "Gwenhoot", G-w-e-n-h-o-o-t, "of Alaska". REGISTRAR: That will be 146. GRANT: 1046. WILLMS: My friend is reserving these numbers; is that correct? I'm tendering these now as exhibits. (EXHIBIT 1046: "Gwenhoot of Alaska Part 2") The next one will be "Temlaham. The Land of Plenty". COURT: How do you spell Temlaham this time? GRANT: As Barbeau did, T-e-m-1-a-h-a-m. (EXHIBIT 1047: "Temlaham. The Land of Plenty) WILLMS: My lord, perhaps while my friend is doing this, I, of course, if the witness' evidence objection to the witness' evidence, then so is all of this material, so be marked for identification. THE COURT: Well, I'm going to allow your friend to tender it and then we'll deal it with it all at once. MR. GRANT: Well, these are the published adaawks of Barbeau. They're not work of this witness. THE COURT: Why don't you finish your itemization of these items. Certainly, and then we can talk about it later. I have "Temlaham. The Land of Plenty". The third one is -- REGISTRAR: Just a moment. 1047 is what? COURT: Temlaham is 1047. GRANT: That's 1047 there. The next one is "Raven Clan Outlaws" and Part 1 of "Gwenhoot of Alaska", 1048. (EXHIBIT 1048: "Raven Clan Outlaws" and "Gwenhoot of Alaska Part 1) THE COURT: Well, the earlier one, which I marked tentatively 1046, "Gwenhoot of Alaska", that would be Part 2, is it? MR. GRANT: That would be Part 2, yes. I'm sorry if these are separated. It's only separated for convenience of the MR. THE MR. THE THE MR. -- and I have an If it's excluded, I suggest this all GRANT COURT GRANT 16956 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In chief on qualifications by Mr. Grant binder, actually. THE COURT: Yes. All right. THE REGISTRAR: Now, this is 1048. MR. GRANT THE COURT MR. GRANT MR. Yes. THE COURT MR. GRANT "Raven Clan Outlaws" was not in already? Some of those adaawk from "Raven Clan Outlaws" went in through Dr. Daly. Yes. All right. And I believe through Mr. Brody. The final one is "Wolf-clan Invaders from the Northern Plateaux Among the Tsimshians". That would be 1049. (EXHIBIT 1049: "Wolf-Clan Invaders from the Northern Plateaux Among the Tsimshians") Possibly I gave Madam Registrar two copies of "Wolf-Clan Invaders", four copies, as my friends indicate they don't have them, so I may have given them to you twice. Well, I have "Wolf-Clan Invaders From The Northern Plateaux" here. THE REGISTRAR: I have one. MR. GRANT: THE COURT: MR. GRANT THE COURT MR. GRANT THE COURT MR. GRANT THE COURT MR. GRANT Q A Q A Q A GRANT You only have one, my lord? Yes. I only have one. I'll deal with that. These were -- these were -- a series of these were delivered. My friends indicate not that one and I'll just have to check later. Is the plateaux spelled with an x the same as plateau without the X or does it have another meaning? I think it's the same meaning. Thank you. Is that correct, Ms. Marsden, from your reading? I've never seen it with an X, have you? I think that was Barbeau's unique spelling, plateaux. Now -- Oh, he was French Canadian. Barbeau was a French Canadian, yes. These documents -- these books that I have just filed with the Court and you've heard me give the titles of them, these are the Barbeau typewritten adaawk separate from the Barbeau microfilms, is that right, that you refer to? That's right. And if you could just take "Wolf-Clan Invaders" as an example. Put it in front of the witness. I'm sorry. My friends are anxious about that one, so we'll put "Temlaham. The Land of Plenty". My friends have had well over two years to look at these. 16957 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In chief on qualifications by Mr. Grant 1 THE COURT: I'm sure they have them all in their memories. 2 MR. GRANT: 3 Q I'm sure they have them all in their files, but I 4 don't want to prejudice them in any way. 5 Now, if you look at the second page, it has "Part 6 2, The adaawk of the true traditions as recorded". In 7 some of these there was a Part 1; is that right? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And what was Part 1? 10 A Barbeau wanted to publish these and he -- he did his 11 own compilation of the adaawk and wrote it, and that 12 was Part 1, and then he put the originals as his 13 various translators had translated them in this Part 14 2. 15 Q Did you rely on Part 1 in forming your opinions? 16 A No. 17 Q Can you say why not? 18 A Well, I wanted to use only the original sources. I 19 wanted to use the words of the informants in as pure a 20 form as I could. 21 THE COURT: So the same subjects would be -- might be included 22 in both Parts 1 and 2? 23 THE WITNESS: That's right. 24 THE COURT: The ones he close to publish. And what did he do, 25 modernize the language or something? 26 THE WITNESS: No. He — he took the discreet events in the 27 adaawk and tried to put them together in an order so 28 they made a sequential history. 29 THE COURT: Yes. So he edited the original for publication? 30 THE WITNESS: Yes. I think he was planning to publish both. 31 MR. GRANT: 32 Q These -- your understanding is that he -- the 33 publication would have included what we have here? 34 A Yes. 35 Q Which is Part 2? 36 A Yes. 37 MR. GRANT: Now, the second point I wish to make is that if you 38 look here, it starts at the beginning, one, Gwenhoot, 39 Boas and, two, "The Gitksedzaw. Village of the Nass". 4 0 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I don't think we've heard that word 41 before. It's G-i-t-k-s-e-w-z-a-w. 42 MR. GRANT: S-e-d-z-a-w. 43 THE COURT: S-e-d-z-a-w. Sorry. 4 4 MR. GRANT: 45 Q If I refer you to the "Adaawk Summaries of the Ancient 46 Histories of the Gisk'aast", in this case you -- in 47 that binder you have included a number of the adaawk 1695? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A Q A Q A we've listed How did he S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In chief on qualifications by Mr. Grant that were in Part 2 of Barbeau's "Temlaham. The Land of Plenty"? That's right. And, for example, the first tab there refers to Tab 2, that name that I have just given, "Gitksedzaw. Village of the Nass". And that's the one that would be at Tab 2 of Barbeau? Well, it's number two in his Part 2. Okay. Now, my lord, just so that -- these four -- four books of Barbeau. divide them? By clan. Okay. So that the 34 -- the 34 adaawk in your "Adaawk Summaries of the Ancient Histories of the Gisk'aast", they all come out of "Temlaham. The Land of Plenty"? If I recall, I took some out of the Raven Clan because their history intertwined with the Fireweed. Q Okay. You understand that -- that the -- in this bound version of "Temlaham. The Land of Plenty", I have not included every adaawk, but I've included those that relate to the Gitksan and to your opinions? A Right. MR. GRANT: So, my lord, these are my editing so that we only have four volumes rather than eight of the -- of the Beynon material -- the Barbeau -- I'm sorry -- the Barbeau adaawk. It contains Part 2, the original adaawk, which relate to the Gitksan. Your lordship raised that question, I believe, when we put in a number with respect to Dr. Daly and I didn't want to put in those that we don't see as relevant. All right. I will put in now Volume II and III of the Duff files relating to the Gitksan. And if you could put Volume II in front of the witness. THE REGISTRAR: What numbers are these going to be? MR. GRANT: I'm sorry? THE REGISTRAR: What exhibit number? MR. GRANT: These would be the Exhibit put these in two volumes. I them. Maybe they could be A and B. That was the number of the Duff files. 1045A would be Volume II and 1045B would be Volume III. THE COURT: I'm sorry. 1045 was — was 13 Gitksan adaawk and one from Kitkatla, as I understood it to come later. MR. GRANT: That's what is coming now. THE COURT: All right. So that's 1045. And you want them A and B? THE COURT MR. GRANT -- in my absence I had to had reserved a number for 16959 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In chief on qualifications by Mr. Grant : Yes, because in the office while -- I thought they would have them all in one binder, but they didn't. What is A and what is B? The -- they are the Wilson Duff files. Well, now I'm sorry. As between them, I take it that Volume II that you've given me will be 1045A. : Yes. Volume II will be 1045A and it will include Wilson Duff files, transcription of Barbeau notebooks Re: Gitksan, Tabs 14 through 21. : 14 to 21? : Yes. (EXHIBIT 1045A: Wilson Duff files, transcription of Barbeau notebooks Re: Gitksan, Volume II) And 1045B — Right. B? And 1045B will be Wilson Duff files, transcription of Barbeau notebooks Re: Gitksan, Volume III, files 22 through 27. And that -- and that will be Tabs 22 through 27. And that's my numbering of the files. : All right. (EXHIBIT 1045B: Wilson Duff files, transcription of Barbeau notebooks Re: Gitksan, Volume III) Madam Registrar can put Volume II in front of the witness. Take a look at Tab 14, Exhibit 1045A. Do you recognize this file, 76-page file? Yes. And is this the file of the Kitkatla origins? Yes. Now, I'd like you to use this file as an example and just explain to the Court what -- to demonstrate what these files contain and how you use them. I believe you could start at page 54 of the file. Well, this is one of the files that Duff seems to have done most extensively. He has a number of summaries of adaawk. Some of these are from these four clan ready to be published sets and some are straight from the microfilm that were never chosen to be put in the clan sets. And that first page is a sample of that. That's a summary of an adaawk. Okay. Then he's -- his second page is a listing of -- of crests . This is page 55 then, is it? No. I'm sorry. You're starting on page 1. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you were referring to page 54. 1 MR. GRANT 2 3 THE COURT 4 MR. GRANT 5 THE COURT 6 7 MR. GRANT 8 9 10 THE COURT 11 MR. GRANT 12 13 14 MR. GRANT 15 THE COURT 16 MR. GRANT 17 18 19 20 THE COURT 21 22 23 MR. GRANT 24 Q 25 26 27 A 28 Q 29 A 30 Q 31 32 33 34 A 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 Q 42 A 43 44 THE COURT 45 MR. GRANT 46 THE COURT 47 16960 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In chief on qualifications by Mr. Grant 1 MR. GRANT: 2 Q No. I indicated it was. Go ahead. 3 A A listing of crests of this group, the Gitnagunaks, as 4 evidenced in the adaawk that he was analysing. Then 5 he goes on to analyse this group. They're a -- what 6 we've been calling a Wilnat'ahl. They're a subgroup 7 of the Gispewudwada, which is the same as the 8 Fireweed. And he goes on to list chiefs' names and 9 the villages of some of the people in this group as 10 according to the informants Sheppard and Maxwell, and 11 this is a transcription of what's on the microfilm. 12 Q Okay. 13 A And then he goes on to talk about a subdivision of the 14 Gitnagunaks in the same way. 15 Q Which page? 16 A On page 4. And again he takes three villages and 17 lists chiefs' names that belong to this subgroup. 18 Q Yes. 19 A Do you want me to go through the entire file? 20 Q No, I don't. I'd just like you to -- maybe you can go 21 over to page 54 now and explain what he is doing 22 there. Maybe it starts at page 53, which has a 23 heading "Summary of Gitxa'ta Origins". And in that 24 case it's G-i-t-x-a-apostrophe-t-a. 25 A So here he's taking the previous pages which he's 26 transcribed from the microfilm or the original 27 notebooks and he's -- he's tried to put them in a form 28 that indicate where the groups that founded Kitkatla 29 were from, who came first, who came second and so on 30 and to get a sense of the chronology of the events in 31 the adaawk and the founding of this particular 32 village. It's a very important village on the coast. 33 So his first page there you can see he's taken the 34 chiefs' names, I, II, III, IV in Roman numerals, and 35 he's summarized their origins. And he was very 36 careful always to include any variations and opinion 37 from the different informants. 38 Q This is on page 53? 39 A Page 53 and then on page 54. 40 Q Yes? 41 A And you can see on 54 that he uses arrows to indicate 42 movement to other villages. 43 Q Can you -- just, for example, that number VII, 44 Lutkudzemti. 45 A Okay. He's -- he's a Gwenhoot eagle. That's -- 46 that's the same Gwenhoot as on the title of one of 47 those volumes from Laxse'el. Laxse'el was an Indian 16961 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In chief on qualifications by Mr. Grant 1 village right at the southern tip of Tlingit territory 2 near Tongas. From there that group migrated to Wales, 3 England and then he has arrows indicating movement to 4 other places. And then he -- that group continued on 5 to join Kitkatla, and their spelling of Gitga'ata, 6 which is important because it sometimes gets mixed up 7 with Kitga'ata, which is Hartley Bay. And then he -- 8 THE COURT: Sorry. Hartley Bay? 9 THE WITNESS: Hartley Bay is Kitga'ata. 10 And then he has the two names of the -- the 11 leading chief; that the eagle chief and other eagle 12 chief that were the first ones to arrive at Kitkatla. 13 And then he goes on on page 56 to summarize this again 14 in a more condensed form, in a slightly different way. 15 And this is -- this is what people working with these 16 files -- I can see what he was trying to do, because 17 you're trying to condense the information so that you 18 could get it in a form that it will render meaning 19 because it's so overwhelming in its detail. 2 0 MR. GRANT: 21 Q When you just said "working with these files", you're 22 referring to the Barbeau files? 23 A Well, the Barbeau originals and the Duff summaries. 24 Q Okay. Go ahead. 25 A The Barbeau-Beynon originals. So on page 56 he has -- 26 he has organized the -- once again the Kitkatla people 27 and their origins by clan. So he has a Gispewudwada, 28 which is the equivalent of the Fireweed, and then 29 Ganha'da, the frog, Laxhi'k, the eagles, and the 30 Laxkibu, which are the wolves. And you can see by 31 these summaries in the first three, for example, that 32 that group of chiefs migrate from Temlaham, the third 33 one via Hartley Bay. And that -- that forms a branch 34 of a Wilnat'ahl within Kitkatla. 35 Q Just a moment. The Gispewudwada is 36 G-i-s-p-e-w-a-d-w-a-d-a? 37 A W-u. 38 Q W-u-d-w-a-d-a. And you referred -- that's a name used 39 for the Fireweed? 40 A That's the coastal branch of the Fireweed Clan. 41 Q Okay. And is that reference to Temlaham the Temlaham 42 that we know about? 43 A Yes. And then on page 57 he's -- he's taken the 44 information again and tried to identify which groups 45 arrived -- arrived and founded Kitkatla and then the 46 ones that arrived later, and he's used the terms 47 earliest, early, middle and post-Tsibasaa, which means 16962 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In chief on qualifications by Mr. Grant 1 after the dispersal from Temlaham. To get a sense of 2 the time depth, you can see that he's trying to get a 3 sense of the chronology of events for this particular 4 village. 5 Q Is Tsibasaa -- is that a chief's name as well? 6 A Tsibasaa is a chief's name. When he says 7 post-Tsibasaa, he's using that as an indication that 8 it's after the dispersal from Temlaham, because that's 9 when Tsibasaa migrated from Temlaham to the coast. 10 Q Just a moment. Okay. Go ahead. 11 A And then on page 58 -- and this is something that I've 12 done also. I find it very useful. He's taken key 13 quotes that he thinks are clues for him in terms of 14 his understanding of the information generally. Some 15 of the informants sometimes said things very 16 succinctly and very powerfully and he's just done that 17 there for his own reference. And then on page 61 -- 18 Q Just -- those quotes from the key informants, this 19 would come out of the files of Barbeau? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Okay. 22 A Sometimes from adaawk and sometimes simply from the 23 interviews, the questions that are being asked. 24 Q Okay. 25 A And then on page 61 you can see he's broken the 26 chronology down in a different way, once again using 27 the four clans but using the chiefs' names in columns. 28 And he starts -- he starts the -- the most ancient 29 arrivals are at the bottom and he moves up. 30 Q Okay. 31 A The most recent is at the top. And then on page 60 -- 32 my 60 and 61 are backwards. 33 Q Yeah. 60 and 61 should be reversed on my copy as 34 well. 35 A On page 60 -- he hasn't done this very often in his 36 files. You can see that he's -- that he's looked at 37 this information and now he's trying to get a graphic 38 way of portraying it to indicate the movements of the 39 different chiefs that are branches of the different 40 Wilnat'ahls through the villages on the coast. And he 41 has Tsibasaa leaving Temlaham, going to Kitsegukla, 42 then going down to Ketselas, then some branches to 43 other villages in that Ketselas area and then down to 44 the coast at Gispaxlo'ts and then the various 45 interaction with the second wave of the migration from 46 Temlaham, which is Wisa'ax, out of Kitsegukla. And 47 that's what he's done there. 16963 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In chief on qualifications by Mr. Grant 1 Q Is the dotted line to the right the Wisa'ax line? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And the solid line is the -- 4 A Tsibasaa, the original. 5 THE COURT: And this is intended to reflect the original 6 dispersal from Temlaham, is it? 7 THE WITNESS: That's right. 8 THE COURT: He has here towards Temlaham, doesn't he? 9 THE WITNESS: He's got them coming down from Temlaham and then 10 out of Kitsegukla. He has some of those people going 11 back up river. 12 THE COURT: I see. 13 THE WITNESS: And then Wisa'ax established himself at Kitsegukla 14 but didn't stay and later came to the coast and joined 15 him. 16 THE COURT: I see it says "Some went up river". 17 THE WITNESS: That's right. He's got Tsibasaa and all 18 relatives -- I think that's what he's saying there -- 19 and then local winter all moved to Kitsegukla. And 20 that's -- the local winter is the adaawk of the 21 snowfall. 22 MR. GRANT: 23 Q And is that -- is that arrow going back up river -- 24 somewhat up river from Kitsegukla, is that similar to 25 what you found? 26 A Yes. When they disperse from Temlaham, they didn't 27 all go to the coast. 28 Q Is this -- would this chart be referring specifically 29 to the Fireweed or would it be referring to -- 30 A It's -- he's only graphing here the Fireweed 31 Wilnat'ahl from Temlaham. 32 Q Okay. Thank you. Now, there's three bodies of 33 material to which are originals that you've dealt 34 with, one of which is Duff's to the extent that his 35 analysis is original as well. What did you do with 36 this volume of adaawk, the Barbeau-Beynon microfilm 37 and the Duff files? What did you do in terms of your 38 work? 39 A The adaawk alone don't enable you always to 40 chronologize all the events. And what these files do, 41 especially the origin files but also the other ones on 42 crests and to a lesser extent personal names, they 43 allow you to -- to get a sense of -- as he's done 44 here, of who arrived where first and how they -- how 45 they interconnected and then that allows you to place 46 the adaawk in that -- that allows you -- helps you to 47 place the adaawk in a chronology. That isn't 16964 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In chief on qualifications by Mr. Grant 1 indicated in full in the adaawk themselves. 2 MR. GRANT: Now, if we go back to Exhibit 1043 — that's the — 3 that's that chart you did of the Fireweed. This is 4 this ancient history chart, my lord. 5 THE COURT: Where was that? 6 MR. GRANT: In the summary of the Gisk'aast, ancient history of 7 the Gisk'aast summaries. 8 THE COURT: 1043, did you say? 9 MR. GRANT: Exhibit 1043. It's entitled "Adaawk. Summaries of 10 the Adaawk. Ancient Histories of the Gisk'aast", 11 before Tab 1, the eighth page in. 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 MR. GRANT: 14 Q And it's this chart. Now, that chart is a -- from my 15 observation that is a sequencing of the adaawk; is 16 that right? 17 A That's right. 18 Q Which you did and in this case with respect to the 19 Fireweed? 2 0 A Right. 21 THE COURT: Is there a similar one for the other clans? 22 THE WITNESS: No. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 2 4 MR. GRANT: 25 Q And can you -- you did sequence the other clans, 26 although you didn't do a chart; is that right? 27 A This is the Temlaham group of the Gisk'aast, which 28 in -- it gets a little complicated -- which 29 constitutes most of the Gisk'aast. However, this is 30 not the total history of Gispewudwada branch of the 31 same clan. 32 Q Now, what I'd like to ask you about is, first of all, 33 how long did you work with the adaawk and the Duff 34 files in order to be able to do this kind of 35 chronology? How long did it take you in terms of your 36 analysis of the adaawk? 37 A Well, in the case of the Fireweed, their adaawk 38 contained a lot of information that allowed me to 39 chronologize them alone, and then I found it far more 40 difficult with the other clans and that was when I 41 started to use the Duff files to help put things in 42 order. And I did that process over -- over the four 43 years that I worked with the tribal council. 44 Q Did you do that full time? 45 A Yes, I did. 46 Q Did you -- or did you review archaeological and other 47 anthropological papers as part of your research work 16965 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In chief on qualifications by Mr. Grant 1 at that time? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And who -- who did you look at? 4 A Well, once I -- once I'd realized that it was possible 5 to put these in sequence, I was trying to look for a 6 sense of the time depth and the -- and I looked at 7 archaelogical dates for the key villages where 8 archaeological work had been done -- not the villages 9 necessarily but the areas, and Skeena River prehistory 10 by MacDonald and his co-workers was one of them, one 11 of the main ones. And MacDonald published some of his 12 findings at Prince Rupert Harbour in an article in 13 B.C. studies and I looked at the -- basically the 14 overview of the Skeena River archaeology, which was 15 most -- the rest of it was mostly in people's minds 16 and I talked to some archaeologists about that. 17 Q Okay. Can you go back to Exhibit 1042, the binder 18 with your C.V.? I'd ask you to look at Tab 2. Is 19 that the bibliography that sets out work that you 20 familiarized yourself and read? 21 A These are the sources that I ended up relying on in 22 forming my opinion, but I read other articles, 23 primarily articles that proved not to be useful. 24 Q Okay. Now, I'd like you to refer to Tab 25, which is 25 the MacDonald article, "An Overview of North Coast 26 Prehistory Project", MacDonald and Inglis. Is that 27 one of the documents that you referred to? 28 A Yes. This is a good summary. 29 Q Of the archaeological work? 30 A Yes. At Prince Rupert Harbour. 31 Q Did you obtain and review a copy of the thesis of 32 Copeland? 33 A I was told about his work before his thesis was 34 complete and when his thesis was complete, I looked at 35 it. I obtained a copy and looked at it. 36 Q And that was before the completion of your report? 37 A Yes. 38 Q Did you -- you worked and prepared this report in 1986 39 and '87; is that right? 40 A Yes. 41 Q And did you also -- were you also involved during this 42 time period in working on the naming -- the names -- 43 on ownership by chiefs of fishing sites? 44 A Yes. 45 Q And what did you do with respect to that? 46 A There was information that had already been collected 47 in the -- in the tribal council files and -- but it 16966 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In chief on qualifications by Mr. Grant 1 hadn't been put in such a form as to correlate 2 information by chief or by fishing site and so I 3 started to work on correlating that information so it 4 would be more useable. 5 Q Okay. And were you involved in the preparation of the 6 map of fishing sites prepared in conjunction with Mike 7 Morrell? 8 A Well, the task became so great that somebody was hired 9 to work under my direction and do the -- correlate the 10 information and then I used those correlations in 11 conjunction with Mike Morrell. We used them together. 12 Q And that was correlation of which information? 13 A There had been -- information was collected on the 14 fishing sites over a long period of time by a large 15 number of people, and there was also information 16 moderately in published sources -- not maybe 17 published, but in printed sources. 18 Q Okay. And did you use your knowledge of the adaawk 19 and adaawk references? 20 A In some of that work the adaawk were tied in with the 21 fishing sites. 22 Q Now, from June -- from the spring of 1988 to the 23 present time, you have been working at the Prince 24 Rupert Museum? 25 A Yes. 26 Q And you're presently the Registrar of Artifacts at the 27 Prince Rupert Museum? 28 A Yes. 2 9 Q And you have continued your work on not only 30 historical work but on the Indian presence on the 31 Northwest -- Indian history of the Northwest coast? 32 A Yes. 33 Q And last summer you were involved in working with Dave 34 Archer regarding archaeological work in Prince Rupert 35 Harbour? 36 A I was able to go out several times with him on his 37 archaeological survey of the area and -- 38 Q And you've taken -- I'm sorry. 39 A And helped. 40 Q Have you taken courses in archives as part of your 41 work with the museum, in archives and design, in 42 museum principles and in conservation of material? 43 A That's right. 44 Q You've described -- with respect to the Kitkatla file, 45 you've explained the work that Duff appears to have 46 done from -- is that work similar to the work that you 47 have done? 16967 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) In chief on qualifications by Mr. Grant Yes. That's -- I've -- the work that I have done is more complex. I'm sure he would have gotten into the complexity had he continued in that line. Okay. And has anyone else, to your knowledge, done the work that you have done in terms of the analysis of these adaawk? There are other -- there are other people who have certainly read them and they've used them in -- in more limited ways. I know that Drucker was familiar with them. He used them to basically summarize origins of people and that was his conclusions from reading them. MacDonald has used them extensively in his -- in his work on trade and warfare. That's George MacDonald? George MacDonald. And John Cove and George MacDonald have published edited versions of them, but not -- not in a chronological compilation. I should -- just to be clear, as well as I referred to a listing of the sources you used, as well as the adaawk which we referred to in these binders, did you also in formulating your opinions with respect to your report for the Court, did you rely on the Men of Madiik and the Wars of Madiik? Yes. And also I acquired wherever I could the recorded adaawk of other people. They may not call them adaawk. They're variously titled as far south as the Owiikenox branch of the Kwakiutl people and as far north as the Tahltan and the Tlingit. And De Laguna, who's an American anthropologist, used the Tlingit oral histories and she also made efforts at putting them in chronological order in a more limited way. : Okay. I'm just tendering the report, which is in two volumes. I just wanted to refer to one part of it, which related to methodology or related to her expertise. : It's in the same volume, is : No, my lord. Her report is now. : I thought I saw the report. 1 A 2 3 4 Q 5 6 7 A 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 Q 15 A 16 17 18 Q 19 20 21 22 23 24 A 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 MR. GRANT 33 34 35 36 THE COURT 37 MR. GRANT 38 39 THE COURT 40 MR. GRANT 41 Q 42 43 44 45 46 47 A it, as the chart? -- I'm just tendering it All right. If you could provide that to the Court and just give her Volume 1. I'm just referring to page 3 on Volume 1 of the report. Could you refer to page 3 of Volume 1? First of all, this is your report that you prepared for evidence in this case? Yes. 1696? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on qualifications by Mr. Willms Q And that bottom paragraph on page 3 and going on to page 4, does that summarize some of those sources with which you -- the commencement of your work when you were working with the adaawk after you were retained by the tribal council? A Yes. MR. GRANT: I'll just be — I'll just reserve the next number for it, but I -- THE COURT: All right. 1046. THE REGISTRAR: 1049. MR. GRANT THE COURT MR. GRANT MR. GRANT: THE COURT: MR. GRANT: THE COURT: 1050, I believe. It would be 1050, would it? Yes. (EXHIBIT 1050: Reserved) It's all -- I should just advise your lordship it's all one report, but because of some computer matters at the time, it recommences -- Volume 2 recommences on page 1, so -- but it is all one report. All right. Thank you. Thank you, Miss Marsden. You can answer Mr. Willms' questions. Mr. Willms? CROSS-EXAMINATION ON QUALIFICATIONS BY MR. WILLMS: Q My lord, my friend reserved 1044 and 1045 and then -- and then I think he tendered 1046 through 1049, which are all oral histories, and then we were -- there was a bit of a hiatus. I object to the marking of all of those, whether or not this witness is qualified, on the grounds that they're hearsay. It's an objection that's been made before. I understand that an argument will be made at some point on the admissibility of them, but I do object on that general ground, which is in addition to the ground that if a witness isn't qualified, then they don't go in either. Ms. Marsden, you attended Carleton University in 1964 for one year and you took French and Russian? Yes. And then you attended McGill in '65 and '66 and you again took French and Russian? Yes. Then you went to the University of Toronto and obtained an Honours B.A. in philosophy? Yes. And I think there you said you took one course in anthropology? Yes. Can you describe that course, please? A Q A Q A Q A Q 16969 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 A It was a basic introductory course. 2 Q A survey course? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And, as I understand it, that is the only university 5 course in anthropology you've taken? 6 A That's correct. 7 Q Now, in 1970 and '71 you attended Simon Fraser and 8 received your diploma for teaching and education? 9 A Urn-hum. 10 Q And you've been teaching off and on ever since, that 11 is until about 1984? 12 A Well, I don't -- wouldn't say that that was the main 13 thing that I've been doing since then. I've been -- I 14 did teaching. I did curriculum development. I did 15 research. I've done work for tribal council and now 16 I'm working for a museum. 17 Q Up until 1984 you did quite a bit of work in the 18 education field? 19 A Yes. 2 0 Q And have you been up until the employment with the 21 Prince Rupert Museum continuously employed by the 22 Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council from about 1983 to 23 date? 24 A I stopped working there in '87. 25 Q So from 1983 to 1987? 26 A In '83 I was still working as a teacher and I was 27 volunteering, so I did all my work in the evenings and 28 on weekends, and from '84 to '87 I was employed full 2 9 time. 30 Q Full time. And in 1973 that's when you married Barry 31 Marsden? 32 A Yes. 33 Q He is Gitksan? 34 A Yes. 35 Q And his -- his name is A-x-d-e-s-i-m-s-k-i-i; is that 36 right? 37 A Axdesimskii. 38 Q Yes. 39 A I think he's changed his name since that one. 40 Q Do you know what his present chiefly name is? 41 A No, I don't offhand. We're divorced. 42 Q And the house -- he belongs to the House of 43 G-u-x-s-a-n? 44 A Guxsan, yes. 45 Q You spoke about Solomen Marsden. Your mother-in-law 46 is Kathleen Marsden? 47 A Yes. 16970 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on qualifications by Mr. Willms She also belongs to the House of Guxsan? Yes. And her chiefly name is M-i-i-n-g-e-m-g-e-n? Miingemgen. Is that correct? The same time that Barry changed his name, I think she took that name off herself and put it on her eldest son, if I remember correctly. Do you know what her name is right now? I think she remained nameless. Is that name -- It was unusual. Was that name the second or third ranked name in the House of Guxsan? It's a very important name. It's in the top three. And you belong to the House of Gwinuu? Gwinuu, yes. Which is Kitwancool? That's correct. Do you have a chiefly name? I don't have a chiefly name. I have an Indian name. What's that? Galexoptxw. Can you spell that, please? G-a-1-e-x-o-p-t-x-w. When were you adopted into the House of Gwinuu? I think it was on our first anniversary, so it would be in '74. What house do your children belong to? They belong to the House of Xamlaxyeltexw. How do you spell that? X-a-m-1-a-x-y-e-l-t-e-x-w. : Y-e-1-t-e-x-w? 3S: Yes. That's the house of my father-in-law, Solomen Marsden. That's his Indian name. So they're in his house? That's correct. Your two volumes have been handed up of your report of 1987. Did you prepare any drafts of that? I prepared one draft. When was that? I'm afraid I'm not very good with exact years. It was in the last year and a half I was working there. So it would be a year, year and a half before you published the final report? Yes. 1 Q 2 A 3 Q 4 A 5 Q 6 A 7 8 9 Q 10 A 11 Q 12 A 13 Q 14 15 A 16 Q 17 A 18 Q 19 A 20 Q 21 A 22 Q 23 A 24 Q 25 A 26 Q 27 A 28 29 Q 30 A 31 Q 32 A 33 THE COURT 34 THE WITNE 35 36 MR. GRANT 37 Q 38 A 39 Q 40 41 A 42 Q 43 A 44 45 Q 46 47 A 16971 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 Q What did you do with that? 2 A Within the last year and a half. 3 Q What did do you with that draft? 4 A I left a copy with the tribal council office. 5 Q Did you keep any copies yourself? 6 A No. 7 Q Who did you leave it with at the tribal council 8 office? 9 A With the library. 10 Q Was there a person in the library? 11 A I don't recall which person I gave it to. 12 Q Who was in the library? 13 A Who was working there? 14 Q Yes. At the time you left the report there, the 15 draft. 16 A There was Jean, and I think she had two assistants at 17 the time. 18 Q Did you give a copy of the draft to Mr. Overstall? 19 A There were drafts circulated for comment. I don't 2 0 know who all got them. 21 Q All right. Did you correspond about your draft with 22 anybody in the tribal council or with the solicitors, 23 that is Mr. Grant, Mr. Rush, Ms. Mandell? Did you 24 write about your draft? 25 A No, not — 26 Q Did you meet with them and talk about it? 27 A There were -- there were discussions about it. 28 Q But you don't have any notes or any documents arising 29 out of those still with you? 30 A What happened with the first draft, that it was so 31 voluminous and it was only half done, I'd only gotten 32 half-way through the time span I was planning to 33 cover, that it became obvious that a whole new 34 approach had to be taken, and that was to -- to cut -- 35 cut down tremendously, and from then on I just wrote. 36 I wrote and handed it in to be typed and that's how -- 37 that's how it went. There was extreme time pressure. 38 Q You wrote it once and it was typed once and you didn't 39 change it at all? 40 A Well, I proof-read it. Of course I proof-read it. 41 Q And what happened to those proofs as they came back 42 that you proof-read? 43 A I proof-read them, gave them back to the secretary and 44 then they were thrown away. 45 Q Yes. Now, other than the one draft of your report 46 which you don't have, did you do any other written 47 work on the topics that you're proposing to give 16972 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 evidence on? 2 A Just that work that led up to this, the various 3 summaries and charts and so on that I -- that I 4 evolved in preparing my report. 5 Q It's just that during your evidence on your 6 qualifications, my friend mentioned some work that you 7 had done to assist counsel in argument. Did you do 8 written work for counsel? 9 A I was asked to prepare some work for legal counsel in 10 preparation for the case. 11 Q Yes. And did the work that you did there incorporate 12 some of the work or reflect some of the work that's in 13 your report or was it completely different? 14 A It was -- it was a -- it was on the same subject. It 15 was on the same subject in the sense that I used the 16 same raw materials. It wasn't on the same subject in 17 the sense it was -- my opinions in my report are not 18 what I was writing about in those things that I 19 prepared. 20 Q But it was in the same area and you used the same 21 data? 22 A I used the same basic material. 23 Q Do you still have copies of that material? 24 A Well, I'm referring to what's been put out here, all 25 of the adaawk and all of the Duff files and to a 26 lesser extent the actual microfilm. 27 Q What I'm referring to is the material that you 28 prepared for counsel that's based on the adaawks? 29 A No. I never kept it. I never kept any copies of 30 that. It wasn't for me. 31 Q Do you know whether or not there are still copies of 32 that work around? 33 A I don't know. 34 THE COURT: Shall we break for lunch, Mr.Willms? 35 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court stands adjourned until 36 two o'clock. 37 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED) 38 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 39 a true and accurate transcript of the 40 proceedings transcribed to the best 41 of my skill and ability. 42 43 44 45 Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter 4 6 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 47 16973 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on Qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 2 O'CLOCK P.M.) 2 3 MR. WILLMS: 4 Q Ms. Marsden, when were you first retained to prepare a 5 report or to give evidence in this case? 6 A I can't remember exactly when the decision was made 7 but it was after I started work at Tribal Council, 8 probably about -- I'd have as to estimate, probably 9 about a year into my work there. 10 Q So is that '84 or '85? 11 A Probably around '85. 12 Q Were you requested to sign an employment contract? 13 A No. 14 Q And you never did sign a written employment contract? 15 A No. 16 Q Did you ever receive a letter from Mr. Overstall or 17 from anyone at the Tribal Council, setting out what 18 your opinion should deal with? 19 A No. Unlike the other researchers I wasn't hired on 20 contract for a specific assignment, I was hired to do 21 something, and my opinion paper evolved out of working 22 there. 23 MR. WILLMS: My lord, perhaps the gray binders could have the 24 next number and then I will fill them up. 25 THE COURT: All right. 26 THE REGISTRAR: 1051, my lord 27 28 (EXHIBIT 1051: GRAY BINDER OF DEFENDANTS DOCUMENTS) 29 30 MR. WILLMS: 31 Q Ms. Marsden, I am showing you a letter dated December 32 19, 1986. It's a letter from Mr. Rush and the 33 addresee is Dr. Brody, but you will see down at the 34 bottom that you received a copy of this letter, if you 35 look on the first page? 3 6 A Hm-hmm. 37 Q You recall this letter, do you? 38 A I have seen this. 39 MR. WILLMS: My lord could that be 1051-1? 4 0 THE COURT: Yes. 41 42 (EXHIBIT 1051-1: LETTER DATED DECEMBER 19, 1986) 43 44 Q If you turn to the second page -- first of all, the 45 second page is what Mr. Rush has done is sent you a 46 copy of the letter setting out the qualifications of 47 the plaintiffs' expert witnesses to counsel for the 16974 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on Qualifications by Mr. Willms defence; do you recognize that? Yes. And you will see you are the first one and your particular area is anthropology and history of the Gitksan people? Yes, I remember that because I commented afterwards that I didn't like the use of the term anthropology. Who did you comment on that to? I don't remember specifically. Is that a mistake, as far as you're concerned? Well, the nature of what I have done is not easily classifiable and there has been ongoing debate as to how to classify it and my opinion is that it is not strictly anthropological, what I do. But you knew in 1986 that you had been described as somebody who was going to give evidence of anthropology and history of the Gitksan people, you knew that? Yes. And what you're saying today is that you disagreed with that? No, I just -- well, this letter wasn't a definitive letter. I mean, this was part of a process and at this stage in the process, anthropology was put down. Yes. And the next step in the process was that I disagreed with it in a strict -- in a strict way. And you communicated by letter to indicate your disagreement with that description? No, I am not really a memo person. I do most of my communicating orally. When you prepared your report, you have based it primarily on written accounts that were initially recorded by Barbeau and Beynon? That's one of the main sources. Well, Duff's material is from Barbeau, correct? Duff did his own research also but the material we went through this morning is based on Barbeau and Beynon. Now prior to reading Barbeau for the first time, what academic training did you have in oral history? : Maybe my friend could clarify, because whether he is referring to the Barbeau Adaawk or The Totem Poles of the Gitksan, both of them are Barbeau. Prior to reading the Barbeau histories that you are chronologizing, what academic training did you have in 1 2 A 3 Q 4 5 6 A 7 8 Q 9 A 10 Q 11 A 12 13 14 15 Q 16 17 18 19 A 20 Q 21 22 A 23 24 25 Q 26 A 27 28 Q 29 30 A 31 32 Q 33 34 35 A 36 Q 37 A 38 39 40 Q 41 42 MR. GRANT 43 44 45 MR. WILLM 46 Q 47 16975 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on Qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 assessing oral histories? 2 A There isn't, strictly speaking, academic training 3 available in assessing oral histories. Oral histories 4 are dealt with by anthropologists in different ways 5 and there is one historian who has dealt with oral 6 histories as history, but in terms of going to a 7 university and getting a degree in a discipline that 8 deals thoroughly with oral history as history, it 9 doesn't exist. 10 Q You wouldn't call yourself an anthropologist, would 11 you? 12 A No. 13 Q And in fact it's your view that the study of oral 14 history is not considered one of the subjects in 15 anthropology? 16 A Not as a subdivision of anthropology. However, 17 anthropologists have looked at the oral histories and 18 as you saw this morning, realized that there was 19 meaningful historical content in them and they have 20 worked with them in varying degrees, once they become 21 anthropologists, but not as part of their training in 22 anthropology, to my knowledge. 23 Q So that the study of oral history is not considered by 24 you to be one of the subjects in anthropology? 25 A I didn't -- I said it's not available. 26 Q Well, let me just put that question to you and see 27 whether you can say yes or no. 28 A Well, there are, there are thinkers in anthropology 29 today who are looking at oral histories and 30 reassessing the anthropological point of view as far 31 as oral history is concerned. And it is possible that 32 in the future oral histories will be treated by 33 anthropologists but they have to redo some of their 34 basic theoretical frameworks and they have to develop 35 new methodology in order to do that. 36 Q Do you remember giving evidence at a trial, Regina 37 versus Arthur Matthews, November 4th, 1985 in the 38 Provincial Court? 39 A Yes. 40 Q Could you turn to page 39, please, of the transcript. 41 I am on page 39. And you were asked this question at 42 line four: 43 44 "Q Have you in your studies done anything more 45 than gather up, have stories repeated to you 46 and check them against what was told to Barbeau 47 and Beynon, is that the basic purpose of your 16976 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on Qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 study? 2 A No, no. To get back to your question about 3 whether I am an anthropologist, the reason I am 4 not is that the type of anthropology that I 5 wanted to pursue was not available and still 6 isn't. The study of oral history is not 7 considered one of the subjects in anthropology 8 and so what I would say what I do is what would 9 be done were there courses in university on 10 them. In other words, I just don't read it and 11 compare it, I analyze it and -- and try to put 12 it into a logical hole (sic)." 13 THE WITNESS: That's a typo. 14 MR. WILLMS: 15 Q And then the question: 16 17 "Q Yes. 18 A Which is basically what anthropologists do 19 with other cultures." 20 21 Were you asked that question and did you give that 22 answer in 1985? 23 A Yes, except the world "hole" should be W-H-O-L-E. 24 Q And that answer is true? 25 A Yes, as long as you take the word subjects as a -- in 26 the sense of pursuing it as a branch of anthropology. 27 It's been dealt with by anthropologists but you can't 28 apply to take a PhD and specialize in the study of 29 oral history as history. 30 Q Well, who would you say are the leading people in the 31 field of oral history? 32 A I think it's something that's starting. 33 Q Is that -- does that answer me, you are? 34 A No, I wouldn't say leading and I wouldn't say field at 35 this point. But it is a historian who has done work 36 with oral histories, among the African people. 37 Q Whose writings in the study of oral histories do you 38 rely on as authoritative? 39 A When I first moved among the Gitksan people, I was 40 told by them that the people, the things the white 41 people call stories are not stories, they are history. 42 And as I lived amongst them and was told some of their 43 histories, and as I read more over the years, those 44 are the authorities that I referred to in terms of 45 what these were and what they meant. 46 Q Whose writings in the study of oral histories do you 47 rely on as authoritative? 16977 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on Qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 A There aren't writings on oral history, except for 2 Vansina. 3 THE COURT: Well there is Barbeau and Beynon and Duff, surely? 4 A That's I was saying previously, there are 5 anthropologists who have looked at oral histories and 6 who have worked with them. But you can't study that 7 on your way to being an anthropologist. 8 MR. WILLMS: 9 Q I am showing you an annotated bibliography, Approaches 10 to the Analysis of Oral Tradition, done by Dr. 11 Cruikshank from the University of British Columbia. 12 Have you seen this document before? 13 A I have had occasion to look through it. 14 MR. WILLMS: My lord, 1051-2? 15 THE COURT: You're not going to put the transcript in? 16 MR. WILLMS: I wasn't planning to. She said she agreed with it, 17 my lord. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 20 (EXHIBIT 1051-2: APPROACHES TO THE ANALYSIS OF ORAL 21 TRADITION: AN ANNOTATED BIBLIOGRAPHY - JULIE 22 CRUIKSHANK, NOVEMBER 10,1985) 23 24 MR. WILLMS: 25 Q If you can turn in the annotated bibliography -- there 26 is a couple of pages numbered one, a contents page 27 with a one and then if you turn the page there is 28 Approaches to the Analysis of Oral Tradition. Now Dr. 29 Cruikshank starts off by saying: 30 "Any student who hoping to find a body of 31 anthropological literature with clear 32 ethnographic instruction about how to approach 33 analysis of oral tradition will be be 34 disappointed. The literature provides a 35 fascinating variety of starting points but any 36 direction selected inevitably leads us to other 37 points of departure and to a sense that no single 38 'method' will tell us what we want to know. 39 There is no 'unified theory of myth' to guide 4 0 us." 41 42 Just pausing there, in your study, do you agree 43 that there is no unified theory of myth to guide you 44 in assessing oral histories? 45 A In our culture, in the academic world, yes. 46 Q There is none? 47 Dr. Cruikshank carries on: 1697? S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on Qualifications by Mr. Willms "Historical-philological folklorists, for example, have viewed oral narratives as cultural artifacts and survivals which come from earlier periods of human history. Social anthropologists have countered that narratives reflect the contemporary culture of their bearers and have nothing to do with the past." 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 THE COURT: MR. GRANT: A WILLMS MR. Q A Just pausing there, you're not a social anthropologist, is that accurate? A No, no. I can show you the section that I think what I do fall under in terms of the approach to oral history. Q But just pausing there, would you call yourself a historical-philological folklorist? I hope not. Maybe my friend can explain the term first, would like to know -- I am not -- I don't know anything about the field. I am not an expert in oral histories. I take it you don't understand what that means? I don't. Folklore is the term that's usually used to accounts that are not considered very serious in terms of oral traditions. Q Let's carry on, Dr. Cruikshank carries on and says this : "Structuralists proclaim that they are related to neither past nor present but hold the key to a theory of minds." Would you call yourself a structuralist? A No. I am familiar with the approach that they have, no. Q And then: "Literary critics have treated them as artistic products both in their form and in their function in society." Would you call yourself a literary critic? A No. It's interesting because when I was in university I was interested in myth at that time and in my exploration of trying to find a department that covered it, it was just this kind of thing and the literary department does deal with myth as literature but that isn't what I was interested in. 16979 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on Qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 Q What Dr. Cruikshank does, in pages two through six, 2 she sets out what she is going to -- the bibliography 3 that she is going to annotate but she breaks it down 4 into 13 sub headings, and on page 3 here, the sub 5 heading "oral history", where she says: 6 7 "This section considers some of the controversies 8 about whether or how oral tradition constitutes a 9 contribution to oral history, comparable to 10 documented history. It calls attention to the 11 need for an interpretive framework for discussion 12 of traditions refering to the past." 13 14 Is that where you would -- 15 A That comes as close, closer than any of the others. 16 Q All right. Maybe we could turn to that and, my lord, 17 the numbering starts over again with each section. 18 But it's Roman numeral III. 19 THE COURT: On the next section? 20 MR. WILLMS: It starts on a page all its own, the best I can do, 21 it's about ten pages -- 22 THE COURT: I have got it. Thank you. 23 MR. WILLMS: 24 Q Are you at that page, Ms. Marsden? Dr. Cruikshank 25 starts off: 26 27 "The value of oral narrative as a kind of 'oral 28 history' has long been a subject of controversy 29 in anthropology." 30 31 Were you aware of that? 32 A Yes. 33 Q Yes. So that even though you don't consider it to be 34 a subject in anthropology, you know it's been the 35 subject of controversy in anthropology? 36 A They are dealing with these oral histories, they have 37 to be forming opinions on them. 38 Q Dr. Cruikshank continues: 39 40 "British social anthropologists, operating in a 41 functionalist tradition, maintain that what 42 people said about their past was largely 43 irrelevant. Narrative accounts of history had 44 little value in and of themselves and served as 45 charters to challenge the present social order." 46 47 Just pausing there, do you agree with any or all 16980 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on Qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 of that? 2 A I think there is information in any -- you can look at 3 a body of information in a number of different ways. 4 I am not saying that that is an invalid way of looking 5 at it but I certainly disagree with the fact that they 6 have little value in and of themselves. Maybe they do 7 serve as charters, maybe you can argue that. But I 8 don't see why one way of approaching them has to be 9 exclusive. 10 Q Have you read anything by Malinowski? 11 A I think we covered that in that survey course. 12 Q Dr. Cruikshank carries on: 13 14 "In North America, where cultures were undergoing 15 enormous changes by the time anthropological 16 research began, the 'single informant' model was 17 more acceptable and informant testimony was given 18 more weight though there was still dispute about 19 how such texts should be interpreted." 20 21 Just pausing there, most of the oral histories that 22 you are relying on in your report are single informant 23 oral histories; is that correct? 24 A You mean each individual oral history is one 25 informant? 26 Q Yes. 27 A Yes. 28 Q Have you read Swanton or Sapir? 29 A I have read Swanton. He's published a number of basic 30 texts of Haida and Tlingit people. 31 Q How about Sapir? 32 A Sapir was a linguist. I read about his theories. 33 Q The paragraph concludes: 34 35 "Then the French structuralists proposed that 36 narratives were not commentaries about human 37 history at all but rather statements about the 38 human mind. The myth was not a charter but a 39 model, they argued, and furthermore it was a 40 model which obscured rather than clarified 41 reality." 42 43 44 Noq, do you agree with the proposition that oral 45 histories are not commentaries about human history at 46 all but are merely statements about the human mind? 47 A Once again, I would say they hold information about 16981 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on Qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 the human mind but that they are not merely that and 2 they are not exclusively that and that maybe they 3 weren't intended to be that. 4 Q Now, a familiar name pops up in the next paragraph, 5 Dr. Cruikshank says: 6 7 "When Jan Vansina wrote his seminal methodological 8 study of oral tradition in Africa, his aim was to 9 convince historians that they should attend to 10 sources other than colonial records in trying to 11 reconstruct history." 12 13 14 Have you read the work by Jan Vansina entitled Oral 15 Tradition, a Study in Historical Methodology? 16 A I haven't studied it in depth but I have read over it 17 and I read parts that I thought were relevant to what 18 I was doing. 19 Q But you wouldn't say that you have any familiarity 20 with the details in it? 21 A In those parts where I thought it was similar to what 22 I was doing, I did. 23 Q Dr. Cruikshank then says what happened after Vansina's 24 seminal study: 25 26 "He expected doubts from historians but his 27 strongest critics were anthropologists. They 28 objected to his criteria for establishing 29 objective 'truth', 'distortions', 'original 30 versions' and argued that he had only a minimal 31 understanding of basic anthropological concepts 32 like kinship, symbolic processes and social 33 structure." 34 35 First of all, were you aware of that academic 36 criticism by anthropologists of Vansina's work? 37 A I am very aware of how anthropologists approach 38 disagreeing with oral history as history. I have had 39 discussions with people on it. 40 Q But were you aware that the rationale for the 41 disagreement was a historian, if I can put it this 42 way, not understanding and disregarding concepts like 43 kinship, symbolic processes and social structure, 44 those are things that an anthropologist would pay 45 attention to and a historian wouldn't, and that was 46 one of the criticisms, did you understand that? 47 A Yes, I understand that. I think in my case the 16982 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on Qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 involvement I had in the culture and other, study of 2 other aspects of the culture, that I am not unaware of 3 kinship systems and how they relate. In fact that 4 enabled me to make more sense out of the oral history. 5 Q But going back to what you said earlier, you are not 6 an anthropologist? 7 A Do you want me to stay say it again? 8 Q Carrying on: 9 10 "Others argued that he erred in his archival 11 approach to oral history in his objective of 12 building up a corpus of 'documents' and that the 13 real methodological issues involved how to use 14 oral history. 15 Recent students of oral history like Basso and 16 Rosaldo argue that informants' statements about 17 themselves, their environment, their history have 18 to be taken seriously." 19 20 21 Just pausing there, have you read anything by 22 Basso? 23 A No, I haven't. 24 Q How about Rosaldo? 25 A No. 26 Q Completing this page: 27 28 "They propose to make theoretical contributions to 29 cultural ecology (Basso) and to anthropological 30 theory generally (Rosaldo) by demonstrating that 31 by how people think about their landscape and 32 history has a significant impact on how that they 33 interact with their environment they demonstrate 34 their positions by meticulous analysis of oral 35 tradition and pay particular attention to place 3 6 names." 37 38 39 Now, from your study, are there contributions to 40 cultural ecology or do you know? 41 A Well, when this came to my attention, I have always 42 been looking out for somebody who is working along the 43 same lines as I have. And when this came to my 44 attention I read this and that is not the thrust of 45 how -- much as how I agree with the statement that 46 they are -- the informant statements about themselves, 47 their environment and history have to be taken 16983 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on Qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 seriously, the focus that they were doing in analyzing 2 them was once again not the same as mine. 3 Q Could you turn to page 3, there is a reference, and 4 this is in part three still, a reference to Beidelman, 5 entitled Myth, Tradition and Oral History, have you 6 read that? 7 A No. 8 Q Have you heard about it? 9 A Yes, I looked this over when I received it. 10 Q You will see that -- by the way, when was the first 11 time you read this annotated bibliography by Dr. 12 Cruikshank? 13 A Several months ago. 14 Q That was the first time? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Now, from Beidelman it says this: 17 18 19 "This paper discusses some of the difficulties 20 faced by historians who try to transform data 21 from oral history into academic history. He 22 argues that their attempts to so overlook 23 theoretical works in both functionalism and 24 structuralism and often proceed without even a 25 rudimentary grasp of kinship, symbolism and cross 26 cultural notions of time and space. 27 Functionalists like Evans-Pritchard agree that 28 oral tradition contains truth but their truth is 29 sociological not historical." 30 31 32 Just pausing there, I take it you wouldn't agree 33 with that? 34 A No. 35 MR. GRANT: Well, there is a lot — my friend could break it 3 6 down. 37 MR. WILLMS: I am breaking it down. 38 THE COURT: Where are you inding this? Is it the next 39 paragraph? 40 MR. WILLMS: Page 3 and the description of Beidelman's work. 41 Q Do you agree that the truth in oral tradition is 42 sociological and not historical? 43 A Well, there is sociological information and you can 44 use the oral histories to do sociological studies, but 45 that is not how I use them, and I don't agree that 46 that is exclusive, that the sociological approach is 47 therefore not historical, that they are not useful as 16984 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on Qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 historical sources. 2 Q Just to complete the sentence: 3 4 5 "For example, few myths justify the present 6 social order and sometimes distort the past to do 7 so." 8 9 10 Did you notice that in your review of oral 11 histories, that oral histories justify the present 12 social order and sometimes distort the past to do so? 13 A No, I found that as I had a sense of their time depth 14 that in different time periods they focused on 15 different aspects of the social order. 16 Q Completing what Dr. Cruikshank says here: 17 18 19 "To make matters even more complex, structuralists 20 have shown that myth often inverts the actual 21 social rules in an attempt to resolve 22 contradictions which cannot be resolved in the 23 social sphere. Both of these theoretical 24 positions create serious problems for historians 25 trying to interpret traditions as accurate 26 accounts of past events." 27 28 29 Now, were you aware that historians or 30 anthropologists viewed difficulty in using oral 31 history and interpreting it as accurate accounts of 32 past events? 33 A Yes. 34 Q And you know that not only do historians like Vansina 35 see difficulties with using oral accounts as history, 36 but also anthropologists, they both do, don't they? 37 A I think they suffer from a limited approach. 38 Q You're not a historian, are you? 39 A No, I wasn't trained formally in historical work. 40 Q Just carrying on to page five of part three, there is 41 a discussion of Vansina, the reference that I 42 suggested to you before on oral traditions, a Study in 43 Historical Methodology. Dr. Cruikshank says in the 44 very first sentence: 45 46 47 "This book is wildly regarded as a fundamental 16985 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on Qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 methodological treatise on the study of oral 2 traditions as history." 3 4 5 Do you agree with that? 6 A Can I have that page again, please? 7 Q It's page five, two pages along in part three. 8 A Okay. 9 Q I am sorry, the first sentence is: 10 11 12 "This book is widely regarded as the fundamental 13 methodological treatise on the study of oral 14 traditions as history." 15 16 17 18 Do you agree with that? 19 A To my knowledge there is nothing else that has been 20 published that deals with it in that amount of depth. 21 Q When did you first read Vansina? 22 A '86-'87, somewhere in there. 23 Q Was it before or after you wrote your report? 24 A It was during. 25 Q While you were writing it? 26 A I had already gotten well into my own methodology by 27 that time. 28 Q Yes. Just if you could put that to one side for a 29 moment, but don't put it away, I wonder if Exhibit 88? 30 could be put. 31 THE COURT: What is that, please? 32 MR. WILLMS: It's in the — Dr. Daly's blue book, if I can call 33 it that. It was put in by the plaintiffs, my lord, 34 and it's an extract from Trigger, the doctor. 35 THE COURT: 8 8 6? 36 MR. WILLMS: 888, my lord. It's an extract from Natives and 37 Newcomers, Canada's Heroic Age Reconsidered, Dr. 38 Trigger and it was referred to and discussed by Dr. 39 Daly. 40 Q Have you read this work before? 41 A No, I am not familiar with this. 42 Q Could you turn to page 167. On the right-hand side, 43 that first full paragraph, Dr. Trigger says: 44 45 46 "The use of oral traditions to understand 47 historical events requires a detailed 16986 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on Qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 understanding of their derivation and a critical 2 comparison of alternative versions of the same 3 story." 4 5 Then he cites Vansina and carries on: 6 7 "While oral traditions may provide a valuable 8 record of former beliefs and values, caution is 9 needed in interpreting that sort of information 10 historically." 11 12 13 You agree with that, don't you, you need a great 14 deal of caution to interpret this? 15 A Is he referring there that it's historical information 16 or that the oral histories are historical and the 17 information coming out of them is about something else 18 besides historical events? I am not sure how he means 19 the word historical there. But I certainly agree that 20 caution is needed in interpreting them in what I do 21 and in what other people do with them. 22 Q He carries on and says: 23 24 "Anthropological research in North America and 25 elsewhere indicates that tribal societies 26 generally have little interest in conserving an 27 accurate knowledge of the past over long periods 28 every time for its own sake. What passes as 29 historical traditions are often mythical 30 charters, explaining and validating the current 31 social relations and these change as social 32 relations change." 33 34 Just pausing there, do you accept that as a general 35 proposition? 36 A Well, I am not sure that I know what he means by 37 tribal societies. I mean, I know what a tribal 38 society is but I don't know if I would agree with him 39 in characterizing some of those societies as tribal 40 societies. I know that there are other aboriginal 41 societies that have oral histories that they do not 42 put forth as history. There are other oral 43 traditions, oral narratives that are passed on and 44 that are important to aboriginal societies that are 45 not historical accounts and they don't claim that they 46 are. And I haven't done a survey of all of the so- 47 called tribal societies so I don't know how many of 16987 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on Qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 them have historical accounts. But I feel that from 2 what I have looked at, that the north coast historical 3 accounts are the wealth and richness of what has been 4 collected on them is unique probably anywhere. 5 Q And that's -- what have you read, what oral traditions 6 have you read from Ontario from the Iroquois or the 7 Huron? 8 A Over the years I have been interested in mythology 9 generally and I have read oral traditions from our own 10 culture, for example. 11 Q Just going to the Iroquois and Huron, which is Dr. 12 Trigger's narrow focus here, what oral traditions have 13 you reviewed from the Iroquois or Huron or any eastern 14 Canadian Indians? 15 A I am familiar with what are called their folk tails, 16 blue scap tails. 17 Q For example? 18 A Do you want me to tell you one? 19 Q No, I would like you to tell me what you have read and 20 where we can find it? 21 A I haven't done a study of the Huron or Iroquois but 22 they are published in a lot of different anthologies 23 of narratives that I have collected over the years, 24 they are usually a compilation, you usually say, oh, 25 yes, this is a trickster figure of oral history and 26 because that's not my particular focus I don't look at 27 in this in great detail. But I have always been 28 looking in every publication I have seen for accounts 29 that are similar to north coast historical accounts. 30 Q And that's because when you started this process you 31 saw that the north coast was unique? 32 A I think the wealth of collected information is unique. 33 I am not saying they are the only people in the world 34 that have historical oral histories, oral traditions. 35 Q Down a little lower Dr. Trigger sets out one of his 36 reasons for saying that there isn't much reason to 37 preserve history, he says this, this is the last 38 paragraph: 39 40 41 "The small populations of tribal societies and 42 their general lack of concern with the 43 inheritance of private property tend not to 44 produce the systematic variations in oral 45 traditions that are useful for evaluating their 46 historical authenticity." 47 16988 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on Qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 Just pausing there, I take it that in respect of 2 the Gitksan you would make a distinction there becaue 3 ever since you have been there you have noted a real 4 interest in the inheritance of private property, 5 that's a distinction you have noted? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Carrying on: 8 9 "The recording of oral tradition as well may be 10 suspect. The few committed to writing in eastern 11 Canada prior to the late 19th century were done 12 in extremely cursory fashion and from poorly 13 identified sources. At least some of these oral 14 traditions appeared to be heavily influenced by 15 white historical narratives, missionary 16 propaganda and even anthropological publications. 17 They also frequently reflect knowledge of periods 18 later than those to which they are alleged to 19 refer." 20 21 22 Just pausing there, in respect of the oral 23 traditions that you reviewed, you're satisfied, I take 24 it, about Barbeau and Beynon's recordings as being not 25 suspect, identified sources and not heavily 26 influenced, is that fair? 27 A Yes, I think even in the north coast body of oral 28 literature they stand out as such. Boas's transcriber 29 of oral histories, his name was Tate, he felt that he 30 had to clean them up, he had to take out references 31 that would offend white people and make them 32 acceptable to Christian thinking and I don't use those 33 in the same way as I use the Barbeau-Beynon Adaawk. 34 Q Just finishing this page, Dr. Trigger concludes: 35 36 37 "In general, some kind of independent verification 38 is required before such traditions can be 39 accepted as accurate historical accounts." 40 41 42 You accept that, don't you? 43 A Not entirely, no. 44 Q So it's your view that even in the absence of 45 independent verification, that you can say that 46 traditions can be accepted as accurate historical 47 accounts? 16989 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on Qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 A I think there are internal, there are ways of 2 analyzing them internally. If you have a version 3 collected in 1898, another one collected in 1915, 4 another one collected in 1970, in different parts of 5 the north coast area, and if they all have the 6 essential elements, you have to begin to assess them 7 as something other than figments of people's 8 imagination. 9 Q So if they are all this century, if you have got a 10 consistent pattern this century, you say that that's 11 your independent verification? 12 A They have to -- one of the things that started 13 convincing me, and this has started convincing me that 14 these could be used in a meaningful way and not be 15 subject to this kind of criticism was the fact that 16 the informants obviously didn't know each other and 17 probably their ancestors, their immediate ancestors, 18 didn't know each other. So the fact that a tradition 19 can be passed on in different locations over a long 20 period of time accurately, indicates its value to the 21 people and indicates that there are methods there of 22 transmitting it where it doesn't end up, as he says 23 here, basically changed around to suit people's 24 purposes. 25 Q And this is an analysis of them after they have been 26 committed to writing in this century, basically 27 starting with Barbeau? 28 A Yes, there was nothing -- there was some in the very 29 late 1800s. 30 Q Another method of independent verification, and it's a 31 method that you used is, for example, the volcanic 32 eruption on the Nass, when assessing when the Wolf 33 Clan fugitives came down the Stikine, that's another 34 method of independent verification, isn't it? 35 A I don't connect those two events but I use the 36 volcano -- I use the oral histories in and of 37 themselves to put them in chronological order. I use 38 independent sources to give clues to the dating. 39 Q But isn't it the case that in your report, except for 40 the very recent past, there is very little independent 41 datign, that is, dating from scientific evidence, of 42 the oral histories that you purport to chronologize? 43 A Well, it didn't — 44 MR. GRANT: Just one moment. My lord, I am just questioning 45 here, I was cautious in terms of not going into the 46 report. I just wonder if my friend is now moving 47 beyond the issue of qualifications into the question 16990 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on Qualifications by Mr. Willms of the weight to be given to the opinions of the witness, and I object. THE COURT: I am not sure, Mr. Grant, that I can agree with you. You can't go into the report because that's what you are qualifying the witness to give. But what Mr. Willms is doing is attempting to set up the independent verification if necessary and, therefore, if there isn't -- if the first premise is correct and there isn't any, then it may be that the report is not admissible. MR. GRANT: That may go to the admissibility of the report but does it go to the qualifications of the witness? That's what I am -- because I -- underlying my objection is that I think my friend is, well, he is painting the brush in his manner. THE COURT: Well, that's what he is expected to do. I don't think it's a problem, Mr. Grant, I think you can reexamine if you have to. But I think this is a legitimate way of testing whether this is a discipline upon which opinion evidence can be given. I will allow the cross-examination. MR. WILLMS: Q I will just ask again: On a review of your report, you will agree that except for the recent, the relatively recent past, there is very little independent dating, and by that I mean, dating from scientific evidence, of the oral histories that you have used? A That was not considered to be the focus of my report, information that would independently corroborate this could come from another expert but I have familiarized myself with the opinions of other experts and I feel that archeological information, for example, does corroborate this. Q That's your feeling, but I am talking about what you actually wrote in your report and not your feeling. What you wrote in your report does not contain independent verification from scientific evidence for your dating, except for the relatively recent past? A I could have included it in the report if it had been asked. But it isn't there, is it? Well, is it there or not? Q A Q No. Just returning to the -- Dr. Cruikshank's annotated bibliography, we were on page five where Vansina was being discussed -- by the way, how would you compare your methodology in acquiring and assessing oral 16991 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on Qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 history to Vansina's methodology, or do you know what 2 Vansina's methodology was? 3 A My methodology is extremely complex and I am at a 4 disadvantage if you ask me individual aspects of it. 5 I don't think Vansina got into the same kind of 6 analysis because I don't think he had the same kind of 7 sources. However, there are things that he said that 8 I agree with. For example, the ones that you quote, 9 that you have to look at the informant, you have to 10 look at the different versions and you have to 11 consider it as a historical source but not as a 12 historical document in the sense that we westerners 13 consider documents. In other words, having been 14 written down at the time by a person involved in this 15 situation. 16 Q Dr. Cruikshank concludes her annotation on this work 17 at page six at the top where she says: 18 19 20 "Nevertheless, Vansina's work is still the 21 standard work for students of oral history 20 22 years after it was written. If anthropologists 23 continue to write critiques of his methodology, 24 it is significant that they still use this volume 25 as their point of reference." 26 27 28 Now you haven't referred to Vansina in your report 29 at all, have you? 30 A No, I was not what my report is about. 31 MR. WILLMS: Yes, Exhibit 902, the gray — could Exhibit 902 — 32 I am finished now, Ms. Marsden, with 1051-2. 33 Q Perhaps before I leave it, are there any other areas 34 in the annotated bibliography, other than oral 35 history, the section that I referred you to, chapter 36 three, is there any other areas in there which you 37 would you say falls within the area of your study? 38 THE COURT: That's a pretty tall order, isn't it? 39 MR. WILLMS: No, my lord, there is a little -- there are topics 40 running from page two to six, there is 13 topics 41 there. 42 THE COURT: I know, but the witness hasn't seen this before, she 43 has seen it before but didn't know it was coming here. 44 MR. WILLMS: I thought she might. It is an annotated 45 bibliography on the area. Maybe she didn't. 46 THE COURT: If she she can answer the question -- 47 MR. WILLMS: 16992 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on Qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 Q Well, if you can answer it, are there any other areas 2 in there that -- 3 A I felt comfortable with my methodology when I was 4 doing it. I did not have the time to do a study on 5 other people's opinions on oral history while I was 6 doing this and I made sure that I had -- I asked as 7 many people as possible whenever there were 8 anthropologists or linguists coming through the area 9 if there is anything on this in print and I saw 10 Vansina as a result of that, I didn't see this but 11 when I did see it I looked through it and the people 12 working on oral histories are not working on them in 13 the same way that I am, except for Vansina. And he 14 hasn't done it in the same way. 15 Q Well, let's perhaps go to Exhibit 902-7. The seventh 16 tab. It's a gray book. It was marked in the cross- 17 examination of Dr. Daly, my lord. And it is -- it's 18 an extract from a book called Ethnohistory in 19 Southwestern Alaska and the extract is written by 20 Catharine McClellan, it's entitled Indian Stories 21 About the First Whites in Northwestern America. Are 22 you aware of Catharine McClellan? 23 A I think, if she is the one who has just published 24 something on northern people, I think she has done a 25 very good job of it. 26 Q She has collected stories and histories from 27 informants in Northwestern America, do you know that? 28 A No, I am just familiar with her work to the north of 29 us. 30 Q Have you -- and this is just an extract, this exhibit, 31 but have you read anything written by McClellan? 32 A That book that I am telling you about. We have it in 33 the museum. I can't remember the title of it. 34 Q Now, at page 115 of the extract, McClellan says: 35 36 37 "We are all familiar with attempts to generalize 38 about categories Greece of oral literature. 39 Bascom, for example, has suggested that two major 40 kinds of prose narrative are myths, which focus 41 on the activities of nonhuman beings in an 42 earlier or other world, and legends, which tell 43 of recent human exploits in a world like that of 44 today. Both kinds of narrative are thought to be 45 true, unlike the third category: Folktales, 46 which are pure fiction deliberately devised for 47 entertainment." 16993 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on Qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 Just pausing there, are you aware, and don't limit 2 yourself to the Barbeau writings, but are you aware of 3 Gitksan folktales? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Are you aware of Gitksan narratives focusing on the 6 activities of nonhuman beings in an earlier or other 7 world? 8 A Well, maybe I should go back -- I am is not not sure, 9 the us of folktale, folklore, legend, myth, there is 10 no strict definition that everybody agrees with when 11 they are saying that. I am familiar with oral 12 traditions among the Gitksan that are not considered 13 to be historical accounts and if you classify them as 14 folktales or as events that take place in nonhuman 15 beings in an earlier or other world -- nonhuman 16 beings, I suppose they could be characterized as that. 17 If they mean supernatural creatures by nonhman beings. 18 Q You said you reviewed some of de Laguna's work on the 19 plaintiff histories? 20 A Yes, she tried to correlate the archeological account, 21 the archeological work with oral accounts. She didn't 22 pursue it though. She did that when she was first 23 starting. 24 Q McClellan in the next paragraph says: 25 26 27 "As it happens, all the Tlingit and Athabascans 28 beings considered distinguish two main classes of 29 story which seem to correspond fairly well with 30 Bascom's 'myth' and 'legend'. The first class is 31 designated by native terms which are often 32 translated as 'long ago stories' or occasionally 33 as 'fairy stories'. The chief actors are usually 34 animal-named beings with superhuman powers who 35 nevertheless look and behave much of the time 36 like human beings and who only rarely assume 37 animal guise." 38 39 40 Just pausing there, are any of the Barbeau 41 collection, do any of them fit into that category, any 42 of the ones you relied on? 43 A Well, this is yet another way of using terms to 44 classify something that this person feels is a good 45 summary of what those stories are about. If I were to 46 look at them, at those narratives, I would have to 47 decide for myself. I think there are -- animal-named 16994 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on Qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 beings with super human powers who nevertheless look 2 and behave much like -- 3 Q Barbeau recorded some -- 4 MR. GRANT: Just a moment. I think the witness is still 5 thinking. 6 MR. WILLMS: I am just trying to help her. 7 A Maybe if you would like to go on. 8 Q Well, aren't you aware of Barbeau-recorded oral 9 histories which involved supernatural beings who at 10 times are in human form and at times are in 11 supernatural form? 12 A Well, they have used the term animal-named beings and 13 I am trying to go over what I think you're getting at. 14 But as far as I know when a being, a supernatural 15 being is named it's not usually an animal name, even 16 if it takes an animal form. For example, the 17 supernatural beaver isn't given the animal name, 18 Indian name Timilet it's given the name Ts'a. So it's 19 identified as a supernatural being. Here it's an 2 0 animal-named and that's what I was trying to think 21 about. Have I seen a supernatural being with strictly 22 an animal name, and I can't recall one that I have. 23 However, I am aware that there are supernatural 24 elements in the oral histories reported by Barbeau, if 25 that's what you are asking. 26 Q And some of those oral histories you have relied upon 27 in your report? 28 A Yes, there are supernatural elements in some of them. 29 Q Now, over to the next page of McClellan she describes 30 a second class and this is in that first paragraph, 31 she says, full paragraph: 32 33 "The second class of prose narratives is 34 designated by terms which the Indians usually 35 render in English as 'histories' or 'true 36 stories', although 'long ago stories' are, of 37 course, thought to be equally true. These tales 38 tell what has happened to the narrator himself, 39 to his contemporaries or his immediate 40 ancestors -- for example, about a shaman's 41 acquisition of power or the feuding between the 42 Inland Tlingit and the Tahltan. It is in this 43 category that the Indians usually put their 44 stories about the first whites, if they classify 45 such a story at all. In a general way, all such 46 stories tell of the ordinary world of today or 47 the not-too-distant past." 16995 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on Qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 2 First of all, you are aware of stories recorded by 3 Barbeau and Beynon where the informant is part of the 4 story? 5 A The informant is part of the story? 6 Q Such as some of the wars between Kitwancool and 7 Tsetsaut, between Kisgegas and Tahltan, where the 8 informant was there, he was five, he was six, there 9 are histories -- 10 A There are, like Peter Williams, for example, but that 11 wasn't Peter Williams, that was his father, I think. 12 It's usually the next generation up but I am sure 13 there are one or two up and I seem to recall one among 14 the Kispiox, he was the at peace ceremony, he wasn't 15 involved in the war itself when he was a boy. But 16 it's usually the next generation up, at least. 17 Q And there are some of those in the Barbeau recordings? 18 A Yes. 19 Q McClellan continues: 20 21 "Yet these categories are loose ones at best, and 22 neither our own characterization of their nature 23 nor that of the Indians should lull us into 24 thinking that the scheme is absolutely rigorous. 25 Thus they may explain that 'long ago stories' are 26 distinguished from histories, chiefly by 27 chronological criteria -- because they happened 28 in 'myth-time' but myth-time and mythlike events 29 can nevertheless form an important parts of 30 'histories.' 31 32 33 Just pausing there, mythlike events form important 34 parts of the Barbeau recorded and the Beynon recorded 35 histories, correct? 36 A I am not sure how you're defining myth or how this 37 person is defining myth. There are different meanings 38 to the word myth. 39 Q Do you have a definition for myth? 40 A I use the definition that they are a tradition, an 41 oral tradition, that record an event that is usually 42 historical. And I don't use the definition that they 43 are, in the most pejorative sense of the term, that 44 they are figments of imagination, which is one of the 45 definitions of myth that we use in everyday language. 46 I know that people talk about mythtime and I don't see 47 these falling into those categories of mythtime and 16996 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on Qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 real time as some people talk about other things and I 2 think that's what she is doing here. 3 Q She relates at the bottom of the page and the top of 4 the next one, a Tlingit story about the 1898 Gold 5 Rush, which tells how the white prospector and his 6 Tagish brother-in-law, Skookum Jim, found gold. Have 7 you read about that one or heard of that story? 8 A No. 9 Q Carrying on: 10 11 12 "But they also explain how Jim met with Wealth 13 Woman, a figure from a 'long ago story' and 14 describe Jim's visits to the house of the Master 15 of the Frogs where these creatures appeared and 16 acted as humans. Jim's visit lasted for four 17 months, although it seemed to him that only four 18 days had passed." 19 20 Now there are Barbeau recorded histories, Barbeau 21 and Beynon recorded histories, where human beings 22 change into other shapes, like frogs, right? 23 A Yes. That's what I call the supernatural elements. 24 Q And just in the middle of the next paragraph, 25 McClellan discusses what she means by myth. She says: 26 27 28 "I believe that the mythlike quality of Wealth 29 Woman and the Frog prince remain constant both in 30 Tagish 'long ago stories' and the Tagish 31 'history.' In any case, it does not take a very 32 sharp ethnohistorian to realize that neither a 33 woman who defecates golden balls nor a Frog 34 prince are historical figures in our sense of the 35 word, and he soon becomes aware that myth-time 36 events are not timporally stable phenomena, no 37 matter what the leterary classification may 3 8 imply." 39 40 Is that something that concerned you when you were 41 reviewing oral histories that contained a Frog in the 42 history, that they are not historical figures in our 43 sense of the word, for example? 44 A Part of my analysis dealt with the supernatural 45 elements, yes. 46 MR. WILLMS: This might be a good time to take a break, my lord. 47 THE COURT: All right. 16997 S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on Qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR SHORT RECESS) 2 3 4 5 6 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 7 a true and accurate transcript of the 8 proceedings herein to the best of my 9 skill and ability. 10 11 12 13 14 15 Wilf Roy 16 Official Reporter 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 16998 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT) 2 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. 3 THE COURT: Mr. Willms? 4 MR. WILLMS: 5 Q Could you please turn back to Tab 7 in Exhibit 902, 6 Ms. Marsden, and just complete the McClellan 7 discussion of ethnohistory. At the bottom of page 117 8 McClellan, after discussing long ago stories, starts 9 the paragraph at the very bottom over on to the next 10 page: 11 12 "Perhaps it is not surprising that the 13 Indians themselves are sometimes unsure as 14 to how to classify their stories. For 15 example, the Tlingit apparently run into 16 this problem with their sib", s-i-b, 17 "traditions, just because some of them 18 incorporate so much mythlike action, yet 19 relate to persons who are presumed to be 20 relatively recent sib ancestors. Different 21 narrators may classify the same story in 22 different ways." 23 24 And then she cites De Laguna. And I think De Laguna 25 is someone that you've read. You've read some of De 26 Laguna's work? 27 A Yes. 28 Q And are you familiar with that problem in Tlingit 29 stories? 30 A I'm not familiar with De Laguna's problem with 31 classifying the same story in a different way, in 32 different ways. 33 Q Was that a problem -- 34 A I don't know what she's referring to there. Oh, am I 35 familiar with the problem in my work? 36 Q No, no. First of all, De Laguna, and I think you said 37 you weren't? 38 A No. I don't know what this person McClellan is 39 referring to here. 4 0 Q And how about in your own work? Did you have that 41 problem? 42 A Well, the Gitksan are pretty clear what an adaawk is. 43 It's not a problem for them. And if it's an adaawk, 44 then I deal with it as such if they've stated it is. 45 Q Then that's good enough for you? 46 A It's their definition, yes. 47 Q All right. Now, McClellan carries on and says this at 16999 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 the conclusion of that paragraph: 2 3 "While their decision certainly involve more 4 than temporal considerations, the point for 5 us is that the ethnohistorian must not 6 expect the Indians to handle time in the 7 same way that historians do." 8 9 You'll accept that, won't you? 10 A Are they talking about sort of Indians in their 11 everyday life? And what are they talking about in 12 terms of -- it's just such a broad statement. I 13 really -- I don't really want to agree with it. 14 Q Well, I take what McClellan is talking about is in 15 looking at oral histories -- not in everyday life, but 16 in looking at oral histories, that McClellan is 17 warning that ethnohistorians must not expect the 18 Indians to handle time in the same way that historians 19 do? 20 A They didn't have an A.D./ B.C. dating system. They 21 didn't use numbers to reflect time. They had other 22 ways of reflecting time, not in the same -- I don't 23 mean refined. They had a strict sense of chronology 24 and they also had a sense of large time periods before 25 major events, after major events. They had -- they -- 26 incorporated in the telling of the adaawk is a sense 27 of time. It's not measured the way we measure it. 28 Q There's no measured time in the adaawks unless it's an 29 adaawk by someone who is part of the story who can say 30 this happened and then three years later something 31 else happened, and other than that, there's no 32 measured time in histories? 33 A Not in the way we measure time, no. 34 Q But isn't it the case that in your report you have 35 purported to review oral histories to give a 36 10,000-year history of the Gitksan? 37 A Yes. 38 Q Yes. My lord, just for convenience I have the first 39 couple of pages of the report. 40 And what I'm handing you, Ms. Marsden, is the 41 preface from your report, which runs from pages 1 to 7 42 and then the table of contents and then the tenth 43 page. And pages 1 to 7 of this sets out your approach 44 in doing your research, doesn't it? 45 A It's a very cursory overview of methodology, yes. 46 Q So that on page 1 at the beginning, you say: 47 17000 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 "The purpose of this report is to give an 2 overview of the history of the Gitksan 3 people that will provide a context for the 4 personal and group histories they tell in 5 support of their assertion of ownership and 6 jurisdiction over their lands." 7 8 And you kept that purpose in mind throughout your 9 report, correct? 10 A I don't know if it's in this section or -- yes. I go 11 on to say that if the Gitksan person hears an adaawk, 12 they place it in a context of all the other adaawk 13 that they've heard and are required to be exposed to 14 as part of the system and that we as non -- 15 non-Gitksan don't have that context and therefore it's 16 very difficult for us to see them in their true light. 17 And when I wrote this report, I was trying to give 18 that broad context that they would have in their heads 19 from attending feasts and hearing adaawk and being 20 raised with them so that we could better understand 21 what they were saying. 22 Q If you could just turn to page 7 where you end your 23 preface, you say: 24 25 "Some of the concepts and beliefs that are 26 fundamental to Gitksan culture and therefore 27 to an understanding of the ada'ox are 28 foreign to non-Indians. Therefore I have 29 preceded this historical overview with a 30 cultural overview. This cultural overview 31 is continued in the conclusion where it 32 summarizes the socio-political relationships 33 that come to light in the historical 34 overview and where it provides a context for 35 contemporary aspects of Gitksan society." 36 37 Now, in fact, Ms. Marsden, the cultural overview is 38 essential to your approach to the historical overview, 39 isn't it? 40 A I'm not sure I understand your question. 41 Q Well, without the cultural context and the cultural 42 overview that you've done, the historical overview 43 would be quite different? 44 A You mean could -- could a person read simply 45 everything else in the report besides the introduction 46 and the conclusion and not make any sense of it? Is 47 that what you mean? 17001 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 Q No, no. What I mean is had you not used the cultural 2 overview in reviewing the historical context, it would 3 have been a quite different report? 4 A Before I even started working with the adaawk, I 5 was -- they were explained to me in terms of being 6 historical traditions and in terms of being important 7 aspects of what a chief passes on to his heirs and 8 important aspects of what constitutes their culture 9 and that was why I wrote the overview, to place the 10 adaawk in that context. They're not simply bedtime 11 stories, for example. They're in the possession of 12 the chief. It's his responsibility to pass them on, 13 that sort of thing. And I -- and they're interrelated 14 with the totem poles and the crests and the limx'ooy 15 and the other things the chief considers to be so 16 important and, therefore, I wrote that overview to 17 explain where adaawk fit. 18 Q Maybe if I put it this way: The cultural overview 19 deals with some of the concepts and beliefs that are 20 fundamental to Gitksan culture? 21 A Those ones I was just talking about, yes. 22 Q Correct. All right. And that cultural overview is 23 fundamental to an understanding of the adaawk; is that 24 correct? 25 A To an understanding. I think if you took an isolated 26 adaawk, say one of the ones where they describe their 27 first encounter with a white person, something we're 28 familiar with, we know where the first white people 2 9 landed. We could read that. We wouldn't need a 30 cultural overview. But to do the kind of work that I 31 did, I think you have to have an understanding of the 32 culture, certainly those key aspects that are involved 33 with adaawk. 34 Q All right. Now, just turning to pages 8 and 9 where 35 you set out your table of contents, you -- in your 36 opinion report you discuss law, correct? 37 A The foundation of law, yes. 38 Q You also discuss cultural and socio-political 39 influences? 40 A Inasmuch as they're related to the adaawk, yes. 41 Q You discuss population shifts and migration? 42 A Once again inasmuch as they're described in the 43 adaawk. 44 Q You discuss rise of trade? 45 A Yes. That also is discussed in the adaawk. 4 6 Q And wars and slave raids? 47 A Yes. 17002 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 Q But you are not a political scientist? 2 A No. 3 Q Or a historical geographer? 4 A In working with the adaawk, I've had to become very 5 immersed in the geography. 6 Q Well, let's say in 1984 before you embarked on this, 7 would you call yourself a historical geographer? 8 A There is no historical geographer that has the same 9 mastery of place names in the north coast that I do. 10 Q You're not an economist? 11 A No. 12 Q Do you understand that it is the hereditary chiefs who 13 have the greatest knowledge about matters of Gitksan 14 customs, politics and law? 15 A Yes. In terms of their own culture, yes. 16 Q And do you understand that it's the Gitksan hereditary 17 chiefs who have the greatest knowledge of the oral 18 histories of their houses? 19 A Of their houses, yes. 20 Q Do you understand that it is the Gitksan hereditary 21 chiefs who have the greatest knowledge about their 22 territories or where they say their territories extend 23 to? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And you know that his lordship has heard evidence of 26 Gitksan law, trade politics and territories from the 27 hereditary chiefs? 28 A Yes. 29 Q You also know that his lordship has heard 30 anthropological evidence from Dr. Daly, Dr. Mills, Dr. 31 Lane, archaeological from Ms. Albright, linguistic 32 from Dr. Kari, and historical geographical from Dr. 33 Ray and Dr. Galois? You acknowledge that each of 34 those people in their fields is more knowledgeable 35 than you in that field? 36 A In their own fields? 37 Q Yes. 38 A Not necessarily on the content of my report, no. I 39 don't think they've dealt with the same subject areas 40 in all cases. 41 Q But certainly in matters of anthropology you defer to 42 Dr. Daly and Dr. Mills and Dr. Lane? 43 A Not on the subject of adaawk. I think they might -- 44 Q Well, just focus on anthropology. You'd defer to 45 them, wouldn't you? 46 A I haven't had the need to find out anthropological -- 47 I haven't had the need to ask them about 17003 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 anthropological things. 2 Q Well, don't you rely on anthropology in your report? 3 You've got a long bibliography. There are 4 anthropologists in that bibliography, aren't there? 5 A I don't know. I'd have to look. It wasn't a main 6 source of information. I mean, I do know -- if you 7 consider an archaelogist and a linguist as a branch of 8 anthropology, yes, I used anthropological sources. If 9 you're talking about structuralist's theory or 10 positivist's theory or various other theories that 11 anthropologists are involved in, no. I did not refer 12 to them for help in terms of formulating my opinion. 13 Q Well, you've referred to Drucker, for example, as an 14 anthropologist? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Wilson Duff? 17 A Wilson Duff's work that I was using was his 18 compilation of the basic research materials. 19 Q Irving Goldman? 20 A Yes. I read that. I didn't use it in any extensive 21 manner. 22 Q In your report -- in your reference list there you 23 refer to archaeology and I think you've referred to 24 Dr. MacDonald, who you've corresponded with? 25 A I corresponded with Dr. MacDonald with these basic 26 sources of information. I also used MacDonald because 27 he has done archaeological work and archaeological 28 work can be used to tie in with the oral histories and 2 9 they themselves have used them to do so. And 30 archaeologists -- archaeological publications and 31 opinions from archaeologists are useful to me in what 32 I do, but I don't -- I don't use it as a -- I don't 33 use it as a source of the opinions. I use it, as you 34 were pointing out earlier, as an independent 35 corroboration, a tie-in to help date, for example, the 36 dispersal from Temlaham, to help date that. I used 37 the information on the volcano by the geologists to 38 help date the volcano event and then to place other 39 events prior to that, but I don't use the theories. 40 Q Also some linguistic. You referred to Dr. Rigsby? 41 A I spent time trying to -- I spent time looking at 42 linguistic conclusions about the Gitksan to see if 43 there would be -- if they could be used as an 44 independent parallel way of dovetailing information 45 to -- in terms of migrations and the linguistic theory 46 just isn't that refined that they -- that they can 47 talk about time depths and numerous migrations into an 17004 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 area as a result of their -- their linguistic studies. 2 MR. WILLMS: But you'll agree with me that because his lordship 3 has heard the evidence of the archaeologists, the 4 linguists, the anthropologists and the historical 5 geographers, that he's in a better position than you 6 in assessing how that evidence correlates? 7 MR. GRANT: My lord, is that not the question — is that a fair 8 question to put to this witness who hasn't been 9 present for all of this evidence of these other people 10 who have taken the last several months, different ones 11 of them, and that this witness, how can she say the 12 position that you're in and what relevance is it for 13 her opinion as to the position that you're in? 14 THE COURT: I think there's something in that, isn't there? 15 MR. WILLMS: Well, my lord, maybe I'll just ask the next 16 question, because I think the next question is a 17 relevant question. 18 And you'll agree with me, won't you, Ms. Marsden, 19 that in correlating the evidence of the hereditary 20 chiefs with the archaeological, linguistic 21 anthropological and historical geographical evidence, 22 that his lordship is in a better position than you are 23 in correlating that evidence? 24 MR. GRANT: It's the same -- the same objection, my lord. 25 THE COURT: I don't think she can say who's in the best 26 position, Mr. Willms. 27 MR. WILLMS: 28 Q Well, I'm trying to find out what she can do to assist 29 your lordship, my lord. I mean, she hasn't heard this 30 evidence. I don't know what she can do to help you. 31 I just thought if she knew something else that she 32 could help you with, she'd be able to tell me, but if 33 my friend objects, I'll carry one. 34 One thing that's clear is that the bulk of your 35 knowledge respecting oral histories has been gleened 36 since 1984? 37 A No. 38 Q No. You read Barbeau extensively before 1984? 39 A Not these, but his published versions and his -- his 40 summaries in totem poles of the Gitksan, plus I was 41 hearing them all the time from the people themselves. 42 Q Well, what the people say is not -- I don't recall, 43 but I don't think -- I think you cite Barbeau and 44 Duff, but you don't cite an individual who told you 45 something as often in your report. I mean, aren't you 46 primarily relying on what people -- what Barbeau has 47 said or are you also relying on what people told you 17005 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 while you were walking around up in Hazelton? I -- 2 sorry. I don't know. 3 A The implication in that question is it was a casual 4 kind of chatter in the street and that's not the form 5 that I received it in. 6 Q Well, let me put it this way: Do you have any notes 7 of conversations that you had with individuals that 8 formed part of the basis of your report? 9 A No. 10 Q No. So your report is based on in terms of something 11 that is written down, Barbeau, Duff, that kind of oral 12 history, correct? 13 A I focused on printed sources because it -- it's -- 14 it's there in front of you as opposed to something 15 that's in my head that somebody told me. 16 Q Well, are you saying that some of your report is based 17 on what's in your head from what somebody told you? 18 A Of course. It's based on my experience among the 19 Gitksan. It's based on -- on explanations of how 20 things work. It's based on my -- my numerous 21 occasions to be involved in feasts. 22 Q Are you fluent in Gitksan? 23 A No. 24 Q No? So when you were attending feasts, you did not 25 understand what was going on if it was going on in 26 Gitksan unless somebody translated it for you? 27 A That's right. And I sat with people in my house and 28 they did translate it for me. 2 9 Q But you didn't make any notes? 30 A No. They don't appreciate that. 31 Q Now, just referring to Barbeau, you've explained how 32 you put Part 2 of Barbeau -- you relied on Part 2 of 33 the Barbeau narratives, that is the collection of the 34 narratives themselves, rather than Part 1? 35 A Yes. 36 Q All right. Did you read Part 1? 37 A I -- yes. I read it over. 38 Q All right. Did you know that what Barbeau was doing 39 in Part 1, of a number of them, was attempting to 40 construct a chronology of the history? 41 A Yes. I was very much aware of that. 42 Q And, now, did you keep that in the back of your mind 43 while you were writing your report or did you ignore 44 it? 45 A Well, I realized fairly early along that his -- his 46 published sources and his -- the version that he was 47 planning to publish were -- involved changes to the 17006 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 original that I wasn't comfortable with and that -- 2 that appeared to perhaps add or take away from the 3 original and I preferred to use the original. 4 Q I'll come back to that in a minute, but a moment ago I 5 asked you about making notes and I'd just like to 6 refer you again to the transcript of your evidence at 7 the Art Matthews trial November 4th, 1985, page 32. 8 And if you go down to line 16: 9 10 Q "Can you estimate approximately how many 11 of those, that is feasts, you have 12 attended? If it's hard over the last 13 several years, even if you could say 14 over the last year or two years, if that 15 would be easier? 16 A Well, a conservative estimate would be 17 30. 18 Q Have you observed the passing of names 19 to different people at these feasts? 2 0 A Yes, I have. 21 Q And as part of your own interest and 22 also your research, have you recorded 23 the passage of those names at the 24 feasts you have attended? 25 A I don't actually do it at the feasts 26 because it's not considered polite, but 27 I have made note of it, made mental note 28 of it and record it or check it out when 2 9 I get home. 30 Q And record it later? 31 A Um-hum. 32 Q So you would use the information you 33 gather at the feasts as part of your 34 research base? 35 A That's right." 36 37 Now, do you recall being asked those questions and 38 giving those answers? 39 A Yes. I'm talking about personal names in that, not 4 0 adaawk. 41 Q Those answers were true? 42 A I was making a list of personal names and I did record 43 those. 44 Q Have you still got those notes? 45 A No. I was -- I was recording them for legal counsel 46 as part of what they had asked me to do in preparation 47 of the case. 17007 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on qualifications by Mr. Willms 1 Q So you gave them to legal counsel? Yes? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Do names play any part in your report? Are they 4 important to your report, names of people? 5 A Well, they're important in that if you don't know the 6 name of the person who owns the adaawk, you don't know 7 where it fits, because you don't know what Wilnat'ahl 8 it belongs to, so you have to know the name. That's 9 why Barbeau and Beynon's collection of these adaawk is 10 so useful and so special. Boas didn't do that. He 11 didn't even necessarily record the clan that owned the 12 adaawk. So it's important to me in that way. 13 However, I -- I used the Duff files for that, because 14 there's a large list, plus my own general knowledge of 15 the names of the chiefs and I used the names also in 16 that houses that are related tend to use very 17 important powerful chiefs' names across -- right 18 across the board. For example, that Tsibasaa name is 19 used both in Kispiox and down in the coast in Kitkatla 20 and that shows a relationship of the two houses. So I 21 used it as an indication, not a major source of 22 indication, but as one of the sources for indication 23 of relationships between houses and plotting the 24 migrations. 25 Q Without just limiting it to adaawk, did you make any 26 notes from 1984 and on of any discussions that you had 27 with Gitksan people such as the names of the feast 2 8 names? 29 A Not that I can recall, not that I can recall saving. 30 I would jot something down if I used it for a 31 particular purpose and I would throw the note away. 32 Q Well, what particular purpose would it be incorporated 33 perhaps in your report? 34 A There was a foundation from my report that I -- there 35 were charts that I used of names as a foundation for 36 the report. 37 Q And, in fact, the information that you obtained at the 38 feasts that you attended and the names that you jotted 39 down was helpful to you in writing your report, in 40 parts of the report? 41 A It wasn't a major source of information for it. It 42 was more important to know how the name system worked. 43 Q But it was a source of information? 44 A Well, once I had Duff -- most of the names that I knew 45 were in Duff. 46 Q Now, just going back to your report and the contents 47 of the report, can you say today how much of the 1700? 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on qualifications by Mr. Willms report is based on what you were told by people and how much of the report is based on the written references in the report? Do you know what the split is? Is it 50/50, 80/20? A I tried to be very careful. I was very careful in that if I didn't have a statement either from the adaawk or from other statements about origins, relationships and so on, that I wouldn't go beyond the data, because I knew that this was an area that -- that would be greeted with scepticism. Q Of course you had to go beyond the data to get the cultural overview which is essential? A The cultural overview came from what was told me and what I saw in operation, but it was told to me again and again over many years and it was the same as things that are taught to us. They're just second nature to you. I knew what an adaawk was. I knew what daxgyet was. I had limx'ooy. It wasn't that I had to memorize information in order to do that cultural overview. It was part of my -- what I had learned through years of experience there. MR. WILLMS: My lord, I don't have anymore questions on qualifications. I do want to make a point now that Ms. Marsden referred to a draft; that I would like that draft produced or perhaps my friend can assure me that all of the copies have been destroyed. And, secondly, Ms. Marsden referred to something that was produced for counsel which relied on the same information and covered the same areas. In my submission, that's covered by your lordship's Galois ruling and if there's any question in my friend's mind about whether it's covered by the Galois ruling, I suggest that my friend produce that for review by your lordship and then your lordship can see whether it falls within that context. But in my submission, on the evidence of this witness it clearly does. THE COURT: Well, firstly about the report, Mr. Grant, do you have any instructions in that connection? MR. GRANT: Certainly. As the witness has indicated, there was a draft and I was so instructed by the witness it was left at the tribal council. This is something that, of course, my friends have raised through correspondence long before now and I have advised them that there is no draft. I personally instructed those in charge of that archive to search it out. I checked all copies that were there and was satisfied that the only -- there were two copies and they were identical. 17009 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on qualifications by Mr. Macaulay Because -- because of the fact there were two copies, I personally checked them out. They were identical to the report that has now been marked as Exhibit 1050 for identification. There is no first draft there. I don't know what happened to it. I have also checked and canvassed with Professor Jackson and with other counsel for the plaintiffs as -- in terms of that. I'm satisfied there is no draft. If there had been, I would have disclosed it to my friends ahead of now, as has been the practice, so that we wouldn't have any delay. THE COURT: All right. MR. GRANT: Regarding the other question, I asked -- my friend raised this at noon hour with me. I asked them to give me the -- I was aware of correspondence regarding a Galois draft. I asked them to give me a page and a volume reference for the Galois ruling -- I wasn't here for that particular ruling, of course -- so that I could refresh my memory as to it. I have discussed it and I would like to look at that before I make any further comments regarding that, and I told my friends so and he's not yet given me this reference. THE COURT: All right. Thank you. Mr. Macaulay? CROSS-EXAMINATION ON QUALIFICATIONS BY MR. MACAULAY: Q Witness, your study, which is your opinion, is based on consideration of a -- a number of Northwest -- north coast cultures; is that right? Not on a consideration of their cultures, on a consideration of the oral histories from the other culture -- the other cultures on the north coast. Did you read the Tlinget histories? Yes. All of them? All the ones I could get my hands on. I read Swanton's basic text, and I had the -- I just -- there's just another one that's been published recently that I've read. And the -- also the Haida oral histories? Yes. And Tsetsaut? Yes, I have. You've read all the ones you could find? Well, there's a -- the only ones I know of that are in -- in print are in -- I think it's Boas, and I read those and used those to the extent that they were useful. And also the Gitamatt or Gitamatt? A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A 17010 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on qualifications by Mr. Macaulay 1 A There are a few published sources for that and I've 2 just recently been able to get ahold of the -- the 3 southern relatives of the Gitamatt and the Owiikenox 4 by Olsen. 5 Q You refer to that on page 3 of your report. You refer 6 to all those? 7 A Um-hum. 8 Q The Gitamaat, including the Gitamatt? 9 A That's right. That's the Gordon Robinson that I was 10 referring to. 11 Q Who's Gordon Robinson? 12 A He's the one that published "Tales of Gitamatt". 13 Q Is he an anthropologist? 14 A No. He's Haisla. That's his own heritage. 15 Q You mean he's a member of the Gitamatt tribe? 16 A Right. 17 Q And what were his sources? 18 A The oral tradition of his village. 19 Q Did he identify them? Was it done the way Barbeau and 2 0 Beynon did? 21 A No. In fact, I had to call him on the one account. 22 The others -- I seen other versions of the oral 23 history so I knew who they belonged to, but in one 24 case I had to call him and ask him. 25 Q You spoke to him about that? 26 A Yes. And he spoke to his mother and found the 27 information for me. 28 Q Was his mother the source of his information about 29 the — 30 A Yes. 31 Q -- the oral histories? 32 A Yes. His mother was his teacher of the oral 33 histories. 34 Q And have you read all the available Tsimshian oral 35 histories? 36 A Yes. 37 Q And the area you covered was from Rivers Inlet to 38 Alaska; is that fair too say? 39 A Yes. 40 Q And the Queen Charlotte Island as well? 41 A I didn't use the Haida in oral histories in the -- 42 I -- I didn't use them as a foundation of this report. 43 I read them, but I didn't include the Haida as part of 44 what I was dealing with unless it was referred to in 45 the Tsimshian traditions. If they said a Haida group 46 migrated from the Queen Charlottes and joined the 47 Tsimshian, then I used that, but I didn't use the 17011 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on qualifications by Mr. Macaulay 1 Haida sources themselves. 2 Q Well, I'm looking at page 6 of your report and the 3 second paragraph reads: 4 5 "All the ada'ox I have examined take place 6 in what I will call the Northcoast area, an 7 area stretching from Owiikenox to the 8 coastal villages of the Eyak"... 9 10 That is from Rivers Inlet to Alaska? 11 A Yes. 12 Q 13 "... and from the islands of the Haida to 14 the island areas of the Kaska and the 15 Babine." 16 17 So that's the area covered by your examination of 18 adaawk? 19 A I examined them. I read them and in the odd incident 20 they were -- they were useful to me, but they were not 21 a major foundation of my report, the Haida ones in 22 particular. 23 Q How about the Sekani oral histories? 24 A No, not -- in fact, I don't -- no. 25 Q Well, the -- the Gitksan oral histories, particularly 26 the more recent ones, have a lot to do with the 27 Sekani, don't they? 28 A Yes. Well, not all Indian groups record their history 29 and their oral traditions. There are Indian groups 30 that don't do that. 31 Q Are the Sekani one of those? 32 A And I think the Sekani are one of those, although they 33 may have traditions that I'm not aware of, but to my 34 knowledge, the use of oral histories as an adaawk in 35 the sense of an important aspect of the culture fades 36 as you head east, and I know that on the eastern coast 37 there are other -- there are other -- there are other 38 peoples that do have oral traditions, but I in 39 between -- to my knowledge, it's not an important 40 factor the way it is for the north coast peoples. 41 Q And the scope of your work included the tracing of the 42 essential cultural institutions in the north coast 43 area back to their origins prior to deglaciation? 44 A Not prior to deglaciation. 45 Q Not -- I'm sorry. It's not prior to deglaciation? 46 A No. To the beginning of deglaciation. 47 Q Well, I'm quoting your words. The same page 6, you 17012 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on qualifications by Mr. Macaulay 1 say towards the bottom of the page: 2 3 "I was able to trace the essential cultural 4 institutions in the Northcoast area back to 5 their origins prior to deglaciation." 6 7 That's what it says, doesn't it? 8 A I'm sorry. By that I mean what they arrived in this 9 area with. You're correct. I'm sorry. 10 Q And you also highlighted the evolution of institutions 11 into the Northcoast culture? 12 A As they were indicated in the oral histories. 13 Q And you also did a summary of the socio-political 14 relationships of Gitksan society? 15 A They come to light in the historical overview and when 16 it provides a context. I didn't attempt to do a 17 comprehensive overall description and analysis of 18 socio-political relationships inasmuch as they were 19 indicated by the -- by the adaawk and in as much as 20 they helped to understand them. 21 Q Well, in your -- at page 7 of your preface where you 22 describe the scope of your work, you end by saying: 23 24 "This cultural overview is continued in the 25 conclusion where it summarizes the 26 socio-political relationships"... 27 28 And I put in square brackets of the Gitksan. 29 30 "... that come to light in the historical 31 overview." 32 33 A Yes. That come to light in the adaawk as I have 34 chronologized them. 35 Q Well, isn't it your opinion that the socio-political 36 relationships are described in the adaawk and nowhere 37 else? 38 A You mean the very ancient ones or do you mean the 39 contemporary ones? 40 Q Well, let's take the one from 10,000 B.P. to — to 41 3,000, the ones you deal with in Chapter 1 of your 42 report. 43 A Yes. Well, I think there could be contemporary Indian 44 people that have been told long ago we did this or 45 long ago things were like that. The adaawk are the 46 main source in print of that information from long 47 ago, yes. 17013 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on qualifications by Mr. Macaulay 1 Q Well, you have covered in your -- what, as part of 2 your background a vast amount of material, haven't 3 you? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And you selected that yourself. You didn't use any 6 analysis method or methodology in selecting that 7 tremendous wide scope of material? 8 A You mean the traditions of the other peoples? 9 Q Yes. 10 A It started to peter off at the northern and southern 11 extremities. It started to be different. 12 MR. MACAULAY: This is a good time to end the afternoon, my 13 lord. 14 THE COURT: All right. You won't finish your cross-examination. 15 All right. 16 MR. GRANT: My lord, if I — I just want to raise. I had 17 intended, of course, not to deal with anything related 18 to this witness' qualifications but to discuss -- to 19 use the evening to discuss something for later in the 20 week about the witness in her direct evidence, and I 21 wonder if my friend has any objection to that, because 22 it certainly -- it's a matter of sort of the 23 chronology of just reviewing the material of this 24 witness. If my friend has no objection, I have no 25 intention of raising any of the issues out of the 26 qualification. 27 MR. WILLMS: I don't have any quarrel, my lord, with my friend 28 talking to the witness about the substance of her 2 9 evidence. 30 THE COURT: She hasn't really embarked upon that. 31 MR. WILLMS: She hasn't. 32 THE COURT: All right. Yes. All right. 33 MR. WILLMS: One thing, my lord, before we -- could I mark the 34 little extract as 1051-3? I didn't formally do that. 35 It's the first 10 pages of Volume 1. 36 THE COURT: Yes. 1051-3. 37 (EXHIBIT 1051-3: Historical and cultural overview of 38 the Gitksan) 39 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court stands adjourned until 40 ten o'clock tomorrow. 41 42 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL JUNE 6, 1989 AT 10:00 A.M.) 43 44 45 46 47 17014 S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs) Cross-exam on qualifications by Mr. Macaulay 1 2 3 I hereby certify the foregoing to be 4 a true and accurate transcript of the 5 proceedings transcribed to the best 6 of my skill and ability. 7 8 9 10 Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter 11 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47
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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts
[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-06-05] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jun 5, 1989
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Title | [Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-06-05] |
Creator |
British Columbia. Supreme Court |
Publisher | Vancouver : United Reporting Service Ltd. |
Date Created | 1989-06-05 |
Description | In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, between: Delgamuukw, also known as Albert Tait, suing on his own behalf and on behalf of all the members of the House of Delgamuukw, and others, plaintiffs, and Her Majesty the Queen in right of the Province of British Columbia and the Attorney General of Canada, defendants: proceedings at trial. |
Extent | pages 16931-17014 : digital, DOC file |
Subject |
Trial transcripts--British Columbia. |
Person Or Corporation | Uukw, Delgam, 1937- |
Genre |
Trial proceedings |
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Text |
FileFormat | application/pdf |
Language | English |
Identifier | KEB529.5.L3 B757 SCBC_232 |
Collection |
Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts |
Source | Original Format: University of British Columbia. Library. Law Library. |
Date Available | 2013 |
Provider | Vancouver : University of British Columbia Library |
Rights | Images provided for research and reference use only. For permission to publish, copy, or otherwise distribute these images, please contact the Courts of British Columbia: http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/ |
DOI | 10.14288/1.0019794 |
AggregatedSourceRepository | CONTENTdm |
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