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 16931  Discussion  1 Vancouver, B. C.  2 June 5, 198 9.  3 THE REGISTRAR:  In the Supreme Court of British Columbia, this  4 5th day of June, 1989.  In the matter of Delgamuukw  5 versus Her Majesty the Queen at bar, my lord.  6 MR. GRANT:  Yes, my lord.  7 Before commencing with the first witness, there was  8 a matter I wish to raise.  9 There has been communications by Mr. Rush to the  10 provincial defendants, it's now -- my lord, it's now  11 June 5th and if all unfolds as one would hope and we,  12 in maintaining that position, the defendants would be  13 starting less than 30 days from now, I believe July  14 4th is the first working day of the month of July.  15 Given the comments of your lordship, on June 2nd Mr.  16 Rush requested once again of Mr. Goldie that he advise  17 us who his lay witness is, if he intends -- and who  18 they intend to call in the month of July.  This is a  19 problem for the plaintiffs and I understand that your  20 lordship made two rulings during the last month  21 dealing with this, one was that there would be 120  22 days' notice of expert reports, Mr. Farley's report,  23 and in fact his identification was given less than 120  24 days before they indicated they would call him, and  25 Mr. Goldie -- it was suggested to him that he go back  26 and re-assess.  And also we have not yet been advised  27 of the lay witnesses they would call, which Mr. Goldie  28 said would take one week's time in the month of July.  29 We have no -- I would ask that my friend refer to  30 this.  31 THE COURT:  Mr. Willms?  32 MR. WILLMS:  There is a letter that went out June 2nd to Mr.  33 Rush advising who the first witness would be and that  34 the balance of the month would be lay witnesses.  In  35 light of Mr. Rush's position with respect to Dr.  36 Farley -- and I just would like to say, there has been  37 no 120 day rule, this has been raised by my friends.  38 It's 60 days, not 120 days.  39 THE COURT:  I don't think I made a 120 day ruling.  40 MR. GRANT:  My understanding is that there was notice of  41 intention to call an expert and a summary of their  42 opinion, 120 days, and that goes back to the time when  43 you required the plaintiffs to tender reports,  44 summaries, not the report, summaries, then the report  45 itself is to be tendered 60 days before.  And that is  46 what we are referring to.  We are referring back to in  47 November, 1986 when that direction was made and I 16932  Discussion  1 dealt with it.  So it was notice as to who the witness  2 was.  3 THE COURT:  You people have the advantage over me.  I don't  4 remember all those matters.  5 MR. GRANT:  And I don't have the —  6 THE COURT:  I would have to see it.  I know that when Mr. Rush  7 made that suggestion, quite recently, there was  8 vigorous shaking of heads on the -- at the defence  9 tables and I don't recall whether Mr. Rush is right or  10 the naysayers are right, but I know that it's a live  11 issue of dispute.  It seems to me to be highly  12 desirable that as much notice be given as is possible,  13 even if there isn't such a rule, and I would think  14 that we are at the stage now where notice should be  15 given as to who the witnesses will be in conformity  16 with whatever practice was followed with respect to  17 the plaintiffs' witnesses.  18 MR. GRANT:  My friend just handed me a copy of a letter, which  19 is dated June 2nd.  Mr. Rush and I met on June 2nd and  20 neither of us -- I have not seen this letter until  21 just now.  But in this letter Mr. Goldie indicates  22 their first witness will be called on June 10th, and  23 his name is Dr. Steciw, Igor Sticiw.  I am sorry, July  24 lOthe.  And a summary of his evidence is going to be  25 given 14 days prior to his appearance. Now, I am not  26 certain, and my friend may clarify, whether that is a  27 witness that will take five days.  They indicated  28 their one lay witness would --  29 THE COURT:  Is this a lay witness?  30 MR. WILLMS:  It is a lay witness, my lord, and it is anticipated  31 approximately three, three to four days.  32 THE COURT:  Why July 10th?  Is there something to be done before  33 that date in July?  34 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, we have looked at a number of things which  35 we have called loose ends and we have identified loose  36 ends which will take a period of time.  We understand  37 that my friends at the end of their case have got  38 loose ends they want to deal with and some of them  39 were highlighted earlier.  We are anticipating that  40 that four day week starting at the beginning of July,  41 will be taken up with either the plaintiffs' finish  42 loose ends or the defendants beginning loose ends.  43 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, I have to ask that you review the  44 record of rulings made, both of you, and ensure that  45 you are complying with whatever rules apply to the  46 plaintiffs should apply equally to the defendants.  I  47 am sure that will be accomplished.  Have you been able 16933  Discussion  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  to give some re-consideration to the question of  calling this -- is it Dr. Farley?  Is that his name?  WILLMS:  Yes, the -- my understanding, my lord, is that Mr.  Rush was taking a time limit position with Dr. Farley  so we have put Dr. Farley over to the fall.  I see.  Thank you.  Mr. Grant?  Just to clarify, I think my friend indicated that  the balance of July would be lay witnesses?  MR. WILLMS:  As presently advised, my lord, that's the plan.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  Perhaps counsel might give some thought  to whether, depending on atmospheric conditions, to  start earlier and have a longer morning and not sit  into the hot hours of the afternoon.  But I will -- I  would be grateful if counsel would do that.  It has  been done in other cases that sit in the summer.  Are you talking this week or in July?  No, July.  There is only one other matter, my lord, which is a  problematic matter that I wish to raise.  I wanted to  advise your lordship of the situation that there has  been no finalization with respect to or confirmation,  aside from some assurances which -- regarding the  issues that Mr. Rush raised, and you commented on some  weeks ago.  I have not been in court because I have  been working with our clients to get that matter  resolved and have insisted it should be resolved as of  last Friday.  So we had the predicament, the -- as you  recall we had scheduled until -- witnesses until the  end of this week.  There are two other witnesses who  should to be completed, Ms. Lane I think next week,  who I think is two to three days, if I recall  correctly, on cross.  Yes.  And Mr. Galois I think is two to three days in the  following week.  I emphasize that given the  unpredictability of everything, to those -- we are  dealing with that, we can't even make a decision on  final witnesses this month.  And I was last advised  late on Friday that nothing could be finalized until  the end of this week and I said that is not very  satisfactory but I would advise your lordship of that  fact because I wanted to tell you what our plan was  for the balance of this month, and I wished -- that's  all I can say about it.  THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  MR.GRANT:   I would like to call Ms. Susan Marsden to the stand.  THE COURT  MR. GRANT 16934  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief of Qualifications  by Mr. Grant  1 SUSAN MARSDEN, a witness  2 called on behalf of the  3 plaintiffs, after first  4 being duly sworn,  5 testified as follows:  6  7 THE REGISTRAR:  Would you state your full name, please, and  8 spell your last name?  9 A   Susan Margaret Marsden, M-A-R-S-D-E-N.  10  11 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF ON QUALIFICATIONS BY MR. GRANT:  12  13 MR. GRANT:  My lord, as you may recall, Ms. Marsden is scheduled  14 to give evidence this week and I am tendering her as  15 an expert witness to give opinion evidence on the  16 history of the Gitksan and, as an aside, to the extent  17 that it is relevant, and related groups, based on  18 their oral histories or Adaawk, including opinion  19 evidence on the history of the migrations of the  20 Gitksan, the major historical events -- and I use that  21 word in terms of oral history -- major historical  22 events, both pre- and post-contact, and the  23 development of the laws and the socio-political  24 institutions, through the -- through their history.  25 And fifthly, the evolution of the institutions of  26 the Gitksan society, as revealed through their Adaawk;  27 and sixthly, the naming and ownership of fishing sites  28 based on the Adaawk.  And I should say, when I say  29 based on the Adaawk, I include other ethnographic  30 material.  31 I would like to commence by tendering to -- a  32 document book, number one, and if you could put that  33 in front of the witness.  34 Before I commence with the exhibiting of anything,  35 my lord, Mr. Rush requested that I reserve the next  36 four exhibit numbers for the Barbara Lane document  37 books.  38 THE COURT:  Where will that take us to?  The last I have is  39 1037.  40 THE REGISTRAR:  That's right.  1038 to 1041?  41 THE COURT:  So 1041 — 1042 will be the next.  42 MR. GRANT:  1042.  43 THE COURT:  You want this book marked 1042?  44 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  And this book, I raised it with the new madam  45 registrar, some of the document books are put into our  46 group of documents can be dealt with conveniently as  47 one, but I would ask that when they go as tab 1, they 16935  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief of Qualifications  by Mr. Grant  1 could be referred to on the exhibit list separately.  2 But this could be marked as a separate exhibit, 1042.  3  4 (EXHIBIT 1042: SUSAN MARSDEN BOOK OF DOCUMENTS)  5  6 MR. GRANT:  7 Q   Ms. Marsden, could you look at tab 1 of the document  8 in front of you?  Is that your curriculum vitae?  9 A   Yes, it is.  10 Q   Now, you have a honours degree in -- a bachelor of  11 arts in philosophy that you obtained in 1969?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And that was a four-year programme in Ontario which  14 you did after grade 13?  15 A   That's correct.  16 Q   And you were halfway through your course work towards  17 a master of arts degree?  18 A   That's what I honours programme was in those days.  19 Q   And during the course of your school studies at the  20 University of Toronto you took one course in the field  21 of anthropology?  22 A   Yes, I did.  23 Q   And you in -- in that you did look at what can be  24 called myths in that course, as part of your own work?  25 A   Yes, I wrote papers on mythology.  26 Q   After the completion of your bachelor of arts and your  27 honours degree you moved to Vancouver where you worked  28 for a year and then you took an interim programme for  29 a teacher's certificate in 1971; is that right?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And from 1971 through '72, in that school year, you  32 taught -- you applied for a job through the Department  33 of Indian Affairs and you taught at Kitwancool?  34 A   That's correct.  35 Q   Kitwancool, which is the Gitksan village north of  36 Kitwanga?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And you taught four to seven at that time?  39 Now can you just tell his lordship why you applied  40 to teach that Indian community through the department?  41 A   I was interested in being in another culture.  42 Q   And you returned to Vancouver in 1972 and '73, and  43 completed your -- obtained your permanent teacher's  44 certificate in 1974; is that right?  45 A   Yes, that's correct.  46 Q   And from 19 -- and subsequent to that, you taught --  47 and I am going to page 2 of the curriculum vitae, my 16936  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief of Qualifications  by Mr. Grant  1 lord, you taught grade one at Kitsegukla Indian day  2 school for '74 and 75?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And during the course of that teaching, you met a  5 linguist, Mr. Braithwaite?  6 A   That's correct.  7 Q   Who was dealing with Gitksan orthography?  8 A   That's right.  9 Q   From 1975 to 1978 you were the programme co-ordinator  10 for the Terrace School District on a native studies  11 curriculum development?  12 A   That's right.  13 Q   Now, prior to you taking that job on had you done any  14 study on your own of the Gitksan -- of the Gitksan  15 culture?  16 A  When I was hired by the Department of Indian Affairs  17 they encouraged me to teach Indian content and so when  18 I first started in Kitwancool I acquainted myself with  19 all of the published sources on north coast culture  20 and specifically on Gitksan culture.  And when I moved  21 to Kitsegukla I was involved in staff meetings where I  22 tried to encourage other teachers to do the same.  And  23 out of those discussions came the idea on the part of  24 the principal, and he discussed it with other  25 administrators, and they created the position of  26 developing the curriculum so that other people could  27 use it also.  28 Q   That's the position you took in that three year  29 period?  30 A   That's correct.  31 Q   What were some of the materials you looked at prior to  32 1975 or familiarized yourself with on the Gitksan  33 society?  You said the published materials.  34 A  Well, that was before a lot of the key texts on north  35 coast culture were out of print.  I bought everything  36 that the Queen's Printer had published by Barbeau and  37 I had bought second hand copies of all the of the Boas  38 relevant texts and I brought Drucker.  Those are  39 basically the --  40 Q   Did you familiarize yourself with Barbeau's Totem  41 Poles of the Gitksan?  42 A   Yes, that was a key one.  43 Q   And his book downfall of Temlaham?  44 A   Yes.  That one was out of print.  I had that one  45 Xeroxed for me.  46 Q   Why do you say Totem Poles of the Gitksan was a key  47 one? 16937  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief of Qualifications  by Mr. Grant  1 A   Because in that one Barbeau coordinates his summary of  2 his reading of the Adaawk that relate to the Gitksan,  3 with the relationship to the crests on the totem  4 poles.  5 Q   Did you utilize this material in your own teaching  6 prior to 1975?  7 A   Yes, I did.  8 Q   Now, I am just going to go in this period of time from  9 when you first went to Kitwancool in '75 and cover  10 some other aspects of your learning then.  Did you  11 participate in community events?  12 A   This is prior to becoming the programme co-ordinator?  13 Q   Yes.  14 A   Yes, as soon as I moved to Kitwancool I started to  15 become involved in the community.  16 Q   Did you attend feasts?  17 A   Yes, feasts and various other social gatherings at the  18 hall.  19 Q   You, between -- during that time period you married  20 Barry Marsden; is that correct?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And he is the son of Solomon Marsden?  23 A   That's correct.  24 Q   Did you spend time with Solomon and his wife, Kathleen  25 Marsden, at that time, before 1975?  26 A   Yes, I did.  There were times when we were sharing the  27 same house; there were other times when we visited  28 them a lot.  29 Q   Did Solomon talk to you about the Gitksan society?  30 A  Well, I was particularly interested in learning how to  31 pronounce the Indian words in totem poles of the  32 Gitksan and that's when I started talking to him about  33 it.  He taught me how to pronounce them and started to  34 explain to me who the people were who held those names  35 and then when I went to feasts I saw those people in  36 the feasts in interacting and using their names.  That  37 is when I began to understand how the system was  38 working.  39 Q   Did you know Fred Good?  40 A   Yes, I did.  41 Q   And he is now deceased?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And he is an elder of Kitwancool?  44 A   Yes, he was a very respected elder.  45 Q   Did you have him participate in your school, in your  46 classes?  47 A   Yes, we -- the Christmas concert is always a big event 16938  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief of Qualifications  by Mr. Grant  1 in the villages and I asked him if he would teach the  2 students in my class an Indian dance and he taught  3 them the war dance with the Ts'set'aut and they  4 performed it.  5 Q   And did you learn about the feast through your  6 participation in it and through what you were told by  7 Gitksan elders?  8 A   That was the beginning of my understanding of the  9 feast when I realized that the giving out of gifts was  10 in payment for services and when I received money and  11 objects, that I was being paid to witness events.  12 Q   I would like to go back to your curriculum vitae now  13 and to your work as the programme co-ordinator with  14 the district staff.  15 My lord, I put some detail on page 3 of the bottom  16 on her professional experience and this follows up  17 from the programme co-ordinator position.  18 You you actually were involved in curriculum  19 development in the School District 88 in 1975 and '78,  20 and then in 1980-'81 with the implementation of that  21 curriculum development; is that right?  22 A   That is correct.  It became apparent that the simply  23 producing items that children could use wasn't  24 sufficient and after trying the programme out we  25 decided that they needed more specific instructions to  26 the teachers themselves on how to use the objects in  27 the kits and that is when I went back in '80-'81.  28 Q   Now -- but the first part, the goals that are set out  29 at the bottom of page 3, those were the goals in your  30 work in curriculum development which was to introduce  31 courses and lesson units on Gitksan and north coast  32 native history, culture, language and art into the  33 schools and School District 88 and in Kispiox,  34 Kitsegukla and Kitwancool?  35 A   Yes, that's right.  The programme was a joint school  36 district and Department of Indian Affairs programme.  37 Q   The Department of Indian Affairs at that time ran the  38 schools in those three villages?  39 A   That's right.  40 Q   Now, in the course of your research -- now, you have,  41 on page four, research, at this time were you involved  42 yourself in researching as part of your preparation  43 for the curriculum development?  44 A   Yes.  Yes, there was an intensive period of research.  45 Q   And amongst other -- you have listed a large number of  46 items there, but amongst other things you researched  47 the relationship of the people of the north Pacific 16939  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief of Qualifications  by Mr. Grant  1 coast and the Gitksan to their environment, North  2 Coast and Gitksan History, and the Political and  3 Economic System of the Gitksan and the people of the  4 North Pacific Coast, trade war between Tsimshian,  5 Gitksan and Nishga.  In that research did you rely on  6 the Barbeau Totem Poles of the Gitksan?  7 A   Yes, I did.  8 Q   And what else did you -- other kinds of things were  9 you looking at in this area of your own work?  10 A  Well, I contacted the key institutions that had  11 information and what was only available at the time  12 was primarily photographs, and I collected a large  13 number of those, and also articles, various articles  14 in the archives which I collected and put together in  15 three volumes for use by other people as well.  I had  16 some assistance from Marjorie Halpin at that time.  I  17 think it was then that I first received her thesis.  18 Q   And she is an anthropologist at UBC?  19 A   That's correct.  20 Q   And did you have any contact at this time with Wilson  21 Duff?  22 A   Yes, I went to see him in his office at UBC.  23 Q   And did you have contact at this time with Bruce  24 Rigsby?  25 A   I am not sure of the time period but, yes, he was  26 involved in developing the programmes for the students  27 in the area.  28 Q   So it would have been at the time of the curriculum  29 development or immediately before; is that right?  30 A   I am not sure exactly when he was working up there  31 intensively but it was at the same time that I was  32 doing work on Indian studies.  33 Q   You then set out, at the bottom of page four, as part  34 of your research, the sources that you went to and you  35 refer to elders from Kispiox, Kitsegukla, Kitwanga,  36 Kitwancool and Hazelton, and you list the UBC Museum  37 of Anthropology and Department of Anthropology and the  38 Department of Ethnology at Victoria and the National  39 Museum of Canada, as well as others, Gitksan  40 Association and the School of Art.  Did you go to all  41 of these sources in developing this material?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   In the course of developing this material, Ms.  44 Marsden, did this assist you in understanding the oral  45 histories or the role of the oral histories of the  46 Gitksan?  47 A   Yes. 16940  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief of Qualifications  by Mr. Grant  1 Q   On pages four, the very bottom is the title and on  2 page five is a listing of items that you used, that  3 were produced for the native studies course and these  4 were kits that you developed; is that right?  5 A   Yes, there were two kits.  6 Q   Then on page six you go to other materials and one of  7 the -- the third item -- the second item is the  8 articles on the Gitksan and Tsimshian, and that's what  9 you have already referred to in evidence that you put  10 those together?  11 A   Yes, yes.  12 Q   And the next item is Social Organization of the  13 Gitksan, an adaptation of Marius Barbeau's Totem Poles  14 of the Gitksan, who put that together?  15 A   I did that.  16 Q   Could you refer to tab 3 of the document book?  Is  17 this the material that you put together,  18 Reorganization of Sections of Totem Poles of the  19 Gitksan?  20 A   Yes.  I was doing that to try and -- The Totem Poles  21 of the Gitksan has an awful lot of information and  22 it's not always easy -- you end up flipping from one  23 page to the other a lot, and I was trying to organize  24 the information so I could get a sense of the movement  25 over time of the various groups of chiefs.  Not all of  26 it is my reorganization.  The second section is  27 straight out of Barbeau.  28 Q   Can you just refer us to what the heading is there?  29 A   The charts, the charts were my reorganization, that's  30 the first section.  And then Gitksan Crests As  31 Illustrated On Totem Poles, classified list according  32 to types, that's straight out of Barbeau.  I produced  33 this for teachers to use as a resource and then the  34 final section that are charts of basically just a  35 summary of another section out of Barbeau.  36 Q   Okay.  Do you still find this useful as a -- when you  37 are going back to the totem poles?  38 A   I don't use this now.  I think I have -- most of this  39 I have in my head now and I change -- I have changed  40 some of my opinions since then.  41 Q   But this was given to the Terrace School District and  42 distributed amongst teachers?  43 A   Yes, and the final section is student activities  44 suggestions and I felt that teachers would take this  45 and develop classroom activities but it proved to be  46 too difficult for them.  47 Q   Now, you were involved as well -- and back to your 16941  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief of Qualifications  by Mr. Grant  1 curriculum vitae, tab 1, page six -- in this work you  2 were involved as well in the working on button  3 blankets for school performances as part of other  4 materials produced?  5 A   No, I made a button blanket at that time myself for my  6 mother-in-law.  7 Q   And who did you seek advice from on that?  8 A   She had a photograph of exactly what she wanted and I  9 just blew it up on a sketch and did it with my sister-  10 in-law.  11 Q   Now, on page seven of your curriculum vitae you set  12 out the position you took in 1980-'81, in terms of  13 curriculum implementation, and there as the goal sets  14 out, in your curriculum vitae, is to implement the  15 materials detailed above through consultation with  16 teachers and through the development of grade specific  17 teacher's guide, a half-time position, and you did  18 that work in the years 1980-'81?  19 A   Yes, I produced grades specific guides.  20 Q   And that's set out on the balance of that detail?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   Did you take a language course in Gitksan language and  23 orthography at this time?  24 A   Yes, Russell Stephens was teaching an evening course  25 on basicaly using Rigsby's dictionary.  26 Q   Did you have, at this period of time did you  27 correspond with George McDonald at the National Museum  28 of Man?  29 A   Yes, I did.  I had received a bibliography from  30 Dorothy Kennedy, they had an institute at that time,  31 they had a very complete bibliography, and it  32 indicated that there were significant materials in  33 Ottawa that weren't published and had never been  34 published, on which Barbeau had based his published  35 books, and I felt that there was -- I could tell from  36 the fact, the conclusions that Barbeau had come to in  37 Totem Poles of the Gitksan that he had a wealth of  38 data that he had been working with.  And I wrote to  39 George McDonald asking if that was available and he  40 wrote back and said no, it wasn't available at the  41 time.  42 Q   Prior to your preparation of your report, you had an  43 opportunity to review that material?  44 A   Yes, I had.  45 Q   Did you learn about tumpline weaving and basket  46 weaving, that is, the traditional Gitksan weaving?  47 A   The yes, Aggie Good, the wife of Fred Good, taught a 16942  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief of Qualifications  by Mr. Grant  1 course in Kitwancool in tumpline weaving which I took,  2 and Edith Campbell taught a course on two types of  3 basket weaving and Aggie Good taught a course on moose  4 hoop basket weaving which I also took.  5 Q   Have you been adopted into a Gitksan house?  6 A   Yes, when I married Barry I was adopted so that my  7 children would be part of the system.  8 Q   And you have two daughters of that marriage?  9 A   Yes, I do.  10 Q   And you were adopted by Godfrey Good?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And his chief's name is Gwinuu?  13 A   Gwinuu.  14 Q   Now, are you familiar with these typed versions of the  15 Gitksan Adaawk, and they are in a series of -- they  16 are put together or were put together by Barbeau by  17 clan, I believe one is called Raven Clan Outlaws, the  18 other is Gwenoot of Alaska, and another is called the  19 Wolf Clan Invaders and the other is called Temlaham,  20 The Land of Plenty; are you familiar with those?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   At the time you were doing this curriculum development  23 work had you had an opportunity to review those?  24 A   No, those were among the things listed in the  25 bibliography I referred to and they were not  26 available.  27 Q   Okay.  At the time you had read Totem Poles of the  28 Gitksan, were you aware of -- did you become aware of  29 the existence of this body of Adaawk?  30 A   Not those specific titles but I knew that the Totem  31 Poles of the Gitksan was based on a body of  32 information much greater than the book itself.  33 Q   Did you get -- are you aware of a book or of a  34 transcription called the Men of Madiik and the Wars of  35 Madiik?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And can you tell the court what that is and when you  38 first had an opportunity to review that?  39 A  When I was doing the research for the curriculum work  40 a friend of mine wrote The History of Terrace, Nadine  41 Santee, and she had a copy of Men of Madiik, which was  42 out of print at the time which she showed me, and she  43 told me that she had tracked down the sequel to that,  44 Wars of Madiik, and had been in touch with the heirs  45 of Gordon Robinson who wrote that with Walter Wright  46 and that she had gotten The Wars of Madiik from them  47 and she had sent it to a publisher in Vancouver 16943  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief of Qualifications  by Mr. Grant  because she felt it was a very significant work, and  there it had stayed for a year.  And I contacted them  and asked them if they were planning on doing anything  with it and if we could have a copy.  :  That's already been marked as an exhibit, my lord,  and I will give you the exhibit number in a moment.  It's in the Daly document book.  We will be referring  to that later in evidence.  :  All right.  Thank you.  At that time, in this period of development of the  curriculum development that you were doing, you had an  opportunity to read The Men of Madiik and The Wars of  Madiik?  Yes.  And what did it assist you in in terms of your  understanding of the oral histories?  Well, it was the first time that I realized that what  a complete Adaawk was, because he started from the  beginning of memory to -- and it ends with the first  gun and that's what so exciting about it, it's one  house's complete Adaawk recorded carefully over a long  period of time, and the involvement of Gordon  Robinson, who was non-Indian, can be seen in the fact  that he was continually asking him about the time  depth and that's the only -- the only Adaawk that has  that degree of comment about time passage between  events, and it made me realize that later when I saw  the other Adaawk, that it was almost unique.  Referring to the other Adaawks, you are referring to  the ones that were in these compilations of Barbeau  that I referred to?  Correct.  That is Exhibit 898.  Thank you.  And that's in the evidence of Dr. Daly?  It's in the evidence of Dr. Daly.  We put in the  entire Men of Madiik, it's entitled Madiik by Will  Robinson as told by Walter Wright.  Is this the Madiik that you are referring to?  Right.  Sorry, I have been saying Gordon Robinson, he  is Gitksan.  Will Robinson, yes.  All right.  Now, going back, if I can, to your CV, in  the period between 1978 and 1980, you taught  kindergarten at Kitwanga Elementary School, this was a  provincial school in the Kitwanga Valley; is that  correct?  That's right.  I wanted to take that year off,  1  2  3  4  5  MR.  GRANT  6  7  8  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  GRANT  11  Q  12  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  MR.  GRANT  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  GRANT  37  38  39  Q  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  A 16944  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief of Qualifications  by Mr. Grant  1 actually, and continue the curriculum development work  2 on my own since the funding had stopped, but I was  3 asked to teach the kindergarten.  4 Q   Did you continue your own work on your own time with  5 respect to looking at the Gitksan -- the documents on  6 Gitksan for curriculum development?  7 A  At that time I was more involved in community events  8 in terms of getting -- we set up a programme for the  9 elders to pass on the songs, to teach the songs to the  10 younger people.  That was when the button blanket  11 programme was set up for other people to learn how to  12 do it.  I helped my in-laws in terms of funding for  13 various community projects that they were interested  14 in.  15 Q   Okay.  Now, if I look down on page 2 and top of page  16 3, under the heading Conference Presentations, you  17 were involved in a presentation in 1970 on native  18 studies and curriculum development, Telling Our Own  19 Story, and that was a presentation you gave with  20 respect to developing Indian curriculum for B. C.  21 schools?  22 A   Yes, that was a major curriculum conference.  Probably  23 the last one of its kind.  24 Q   And then you were involved in another conference in  25 teaching reading.  And going to the next page, three,  26 in 1983 did you -- you gave a presentation at a  27 Gitksan language programmes conference?  28 A   Yes.  2 9 Q   What was your involvement in that?  30 A   It was basically showing the ways of establishing the  31 programmes and setting up the funding and helping the  32 linguists to -- the native linguists to develop  33 useable class lessons.  34 Q   And then there is a series of two conferences  35 sponsored by the International Visual Literacy  36 Association, one at which you gave a presentation  37 called The Totem Pole As Recorded History.  Who was  38 this conference presented to?  39 A  Well, it was a real mixture of people attending that.  40 There were people in the media fields, people in the  41 arts and there were anthropologists.  42 Q   And what was your presentation?  Can you just expand a  43 bit on what you were talking about?  44 A  Well, the focus of the Visual Literacy Society is that  45 information can be encoded in images and I was -- I  46 explained how the image on the totem pole reflects  47 back to a whole wealth of information that is verbal 16945  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief of Qualifications  by Mr. Grant  but that in the societies where the totem pole, of  which the society -- of which the totem pole is a  part, those images are much more than they are to  people outside of the society.  They encode the  information that they know in other ways.  Q   And then there was a second conference a year later in  1982 on the Totem Pole, The Symbol Of The Sacred  Centre, I should say the conference was Seeing  Ourselves and you gave that presentation?  A   Yes.  Q   Was it an expansion on the same topic?  A   Basically, with the additional theme that the pole is  a shamanic symbol in other cultures as well.  Q   Once again, going to your professional experience,  page 2, you taught in 1982, you have as a lecturer of  the Simon Fraser University Native Education  Programme, developing native cultural resources -- and  just for your lordship, there is a reference to  appendix one, that appendix isn't attached.  It's not  there.  You can just delete that reference.  All right.  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Can you explain what you did in that course?  Who you  were teaching and what --  I was asked to come down and give a half day workshop  on developing curriculum in native studies and this  was a teacher education programme in Prince Rupert  sponsored by Simon Fraser University.  And as a  result, the students were so positive about that half  day workshop that they asked for a course and Simon  Fraser set up a course in their programme and asked me  to teach it.  And we covered, basically, the same  spectrum of things that I had done when I was doing  curriculum development from the basic original  anthropological sources right through to the kinds of  things they could do in the classroom to indicate  this .  How many students did you have?  Probably around 12, I think.  And that was a course leading to a teaching degree; is  that right?  Yes, that's right.  It was part of the course leading to a teaching  degree?  That's right.  Are a number of your students now involved in native  education for the -- 16946  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief of Qualifications  by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yes, in fact the prominent native people in Prince  2 Rupert in the education field were in that course.  3 Q   Now, between 1981 and 1984 you taught grade four and  4 five at Kitwanga Elementary Secondary School, that's  5 the school in Kitwanga Valley between Kitwanga and  6 Kitwancool?  7 A   That's right.  8 Q   You also have there you were co-ordinator of the  9 curriculum committee of intermediate and secondary  10 school studies.  What was your involvement, what did  11 you do there that bears on your work here?  12 A   The implementation of native studies in the classroom  13 is an ongoing thing, especially in the north with new  14 teachers coming all the time it was necessary to  15 continue working with individual teachers, and that's  16 what I did.  17 Q   So it was a continuation of your previous work?  18 A   That's right.  19 Q   Now, you have mentioned some of the people that you  20 have -- I am talking here about Gitksan elders that  21 you -- that very told you about the Gitksan and that  22 assisted you in your knowledge and awareness, you have  23 mentioned Solomon Marsden, Maggie Good and Fred Good,  24 did you talk with other elders or did other elders  25 talk to you over the course of your time from 1971 on  26 to 1984 about the Gitksan system?  27 A  Well, I was always involved with the elders in the  28 programmes that I was developing and working on and  29 there were always discussions happening.  30 Q   Did you -- did those elders that you -- that  31 consulted, that talked to you and you consulted, did  32 they include Kathleen Matthews?  33 A   Yes, well I became friends with Kathleen Matthews as  34 well, that family.  35 Q   And Art Matthews senior?  36 A  Art Matthews senior and junior.  37 Q   Glen Williams?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Stanley Williams?  40 A   Yes.  And Edith Gawa in Kispiox, I worked with her a  41 lot.  42 Q   Vincent Gogag and Godfrey Good and Aggie Good in  43 Kitwancool?  44 A   Yes, Godfred Good is Ginuu.  45 Q   He is the chief that adopted you?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Mary McKenzie, Olive Ryan, Jeff Harris senior? 16947  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief of Qualifications  by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yes, Mary McKenzie was working at Xsan at the time.  2 Q   David Milton, chief from Kitsegukla?  3 A   Yes, he was involved with the singing, teaching the  4 students accidents to sing Indian songs.  5 Q   Mary Johnson, Edith Campbell and the late Jeffery  6 Morgan?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Now, in your curriculum vitae you set out that between  9 1984 and 1987 you were a research programme  10 co-ordinator with the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en Tribal  11 Council and this is when you were working with the  12 Tribal Council?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   In the year 19 — from July '83 to July, 1984, did you  15 work on a volunteer basis as -- in your own time, on  16 research relating to your subsequent work on this  17 report?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And what did you do in that period of time?  20 A   I started because Glen Williams knew that I had  21 historical photographs of poles that were no longer  22 standing and he had asked if he could have copies of  23 them and through our discussion I suggested that it  24 would be good to do a catalogue of all the totem poles  25 standing and photographed in previous times and I  26 offered to do that.  That was the first thing I did.  27 And I did that for Kispiox and Kitwancool and  2 8 Kitwanga.  And then he was working with the Tribal  29 Council at the time and John Cove had sent those  30 volumes you referred to before to the Tribal Council  31 and he showed those to me.  And he showed those to me  32 because he knew I was really interested in them.  And  33 I copied a few and took them home and when I started  34 reading them I was struck by the wealth of detail and  35 information in them and I went back to him and showed  36 him and at the time what he was working on a mapping  37 project and the information in the Adaawk corelated  38 with what he had been researching among the people at  39 the time and he became excited by the fact that there  40 was so much information in them also and we -- from  41 that evolved the position of working with the Adaawk  42 and organizing them in such a way that the information  43 would be useful.  44 Q   Okay.  Now you referred to these binders, you are  45 referring to the binders of the Raven Clans, Outlaws  46 and the other clans?  47 A   Yes, the four clans. 16948  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief of Qualifications  by Mr. Grant  1 Q   Had you, when you started to read those, at that time  2 had you heard any versions of Adaawk in your  3 discussions with elders that you saw reflected in  4 these Adaawk?  5 A   Yes, I had.  6 Q   Between 1984 and 1987, you did research that  7 ultimately culminated in your report that you  8 presented, that we are presenting to the court?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And did you do work in organizing the Adaawk for  11 counsel?  12 A   Yes, I did.  13 THE COURT:  I am not sure I understand what the Adaawk was that  14 was organized for counsel.  15 MR. GRANT:  Thank you, my lord.  16 Q   Maybe you can just expand what you did and what Adaawk  17 you referred to.  What versions or --  18 A   I first went through all of the volumes and pulled out  19 those Adaawk that appeared to relate to the Gitksan  20 and then using the -- either the clear statement of  21 the informant as to who owned the Adaawk or using  22 clues at the top or using my own knowledge, I  23 organized those Adaawk so that they -- so that they  24 were in sections by chief.  And then I summarized, I  25 started summarizing them and using a column at the  26 side where I referred to the information in the  27 paragraph opposite that was relevant to a chief's  28 possessions, his territory, his crests, his personal  29 names and his regalia.  And I coordinated that with  30 totem poles and other forms of the crests.  31 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, I wonder, if my friend is finished  32 qualifying the witness, it seems he is straying into  33 the area of opinion or getting there right now, I  34 wonder if he has anything more on qualifications?  35 MR. GRANT:  Yes, I do.  I am not -- I am just introducing this  36 and possibly you could put in front of the witness, to  37 just -- I am not going to get into this at all on this  38 point, except to show what she is referring to.  39 Q   Can you look at tab 1, for example, of this, which is  40 this document book is entitled The Adaawk, Summaries  41 of the Adaawk of the Ancient History of the Kisgaast.  42 Tab 1 has a type script Ancient History of Kisgaast it  43 says Adaawk number one, summary, and then there is  44 some names taken out on the left-hand side, that goes  45 for three pages, and then after that, immediately  46 after that, is a typed script, a different typed  47 script? 16949  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief of Qualifications  by Mr. Grant  Yes.  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  GRANT  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  30  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  36  37  THE  COURT  38  MR.  GRANT  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  47  And now the second typed script, is this the --  This is the original.  That is the original from the binders in this case,  Temlaham, The Land of Plenty?  That's right.  Where is that?  It's tab 1, my lord, after three pages in.  I see.  Yes.  It says, Gitksedzaw Village of the Nass.  And that's  the type script that you worked with from the -- from  Barbeau's binders?  That's right.  And the first three pages is your summary of that  Adaawk?  That's right.  Now, on the left-hand side -- the right-hand side, did  you endeavour to be as close to what's actually said  in the Adaawk?  Yes, I did.  I inserted the titles.  I read all of the  Adaawk relating to common events, and then derived a  sequence from the total of the Adaawk dealing with  those events and then divided them into discreet  events in the proper sequence and then I labelled all  of the Adaawk in the same way, between villages and  events, between what happens in each of the versions  of the Adaawk.  So, for example, if you look at the first page of tab  2, which is Adaawk number 2 summary there is a part  one there, War Between Villages there as well and so  on?  That's right.  Not all versions have all the the parts  in them.  Can you go to the very front before tab 1 and there is  a table of contents then a handwritten summary of  maj or events.  I am sorry, where are you again?  I am at the very front of binder, my lord, ahead of  tab 1, and eight pages in, the table of contents is  two pages and then six page summary of major events.  That is your summary of events, isn't it?  Yes.  And then there is a chart Ancient History of the  Giskaast there, and on the left hand column you  have -- well, you have the top, Adaawk number and it  goes 1 to 34, this reflects all the Adaawk in this  binder; is that right? 16950  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief of Qualifications  by Mr. Grant  1 A   That's right, that was my numbering system.  2 Q   And then down you have headings such as the first one  3 is War Between Two Villages and stars?  4 A   The stars indicate that in those Adaawk that event is  5 discussed.  6 Q   And you organized those headings, that's what you were  7 describing?  8 A   Yes.  9 MR. GRANT:  Possibly that binder can be -- the next number can  10 be reserved for it right now and we will deal with it,  11 tender it later.  But it's in the sequence.  12 THE COURT:  All right.  1042 for identification for now.  13 THE REGISTRAR:  1043.  14 THE COURT:  1043.  I am sorry.  15 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, I should state there are some objections  16 to some of the tabs in 1042, that I take we will deal  17 with when the time comes.  18 THE COURT:  Yes, your friend said he wanted those tabs  19 individually marked.  20 MR. WILLMS:  Yes.  21 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  I am going to deal with that particular binder  22 as a corpus and so on, my lord, but I will come to  23 that later.  24 Q   Now, over and above these -- the published Adaawk,  25 that is, when I say published I am referring to the  26 Barbeau books that you got at that time, did you  27 during this period of time familiarize yourself with  28 any other Barbeau material that you had not looked at  29 before?  30 A   Once I started working with the Tribal Council?  31 Q   Yes.  32 A   Yes, when I first started at the Tribal Council I went  33 to Ottawa to look at the Barbeau-Beynon files that  34 were still in notebook form and which had been  35 partially typed up.  Some of them had been typed up,  36 and they were two to three tall filing cabinets worth  37 of files and I was there for a couple of days and I  38 looked at as much as I could at that time and there  39 were limited access, there was limited access to  40 Xeroxing so I Xeroxed what I could at the time and  41 they were in the process of microfilming those and as  42 soon as they were available, which was probably within  43 the next few months, we ordered a set at Tribal  44 Council.  45 Q   Can you look at tab 19 of Exhibit 1042, the same one  46 with your CV in it.  Now, there is three types of  47 documents here, they are all entitled B-F 89.19.  Now, 16951  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief of Qualifications  by Mr. Grant  can you -- are these -- is this an example of the  Barbeau files that you saw in Ottawa?  Yes, the first section is Barbeau's own shorthand and  there were only two women who could de-code this and  they were the ones who typed the next version.  That's —  And both of these were, both of these are in the  Museum of Civilization, as they call it now.  The only  words in these are the Indian words which he wrote in  the -- I assume it's the International Linguistic  System. It's not the writing system he used in his  published accounts.  And then the second one, when you  use these, you have to really use them both because  the Indian words are not always accurately typed.  And  it's important to go back to the originals.  And they  are side by side on the microfilm.  And the third  account of this one in particular was one that I did  a -- I took the typed -- actually, I re-wrote the  typewritten one and went back to the original and put  in my spellings of the Indian words and somebody typed  it for me.  So if you -- if I was to go into the microfilm of  Barbeau-Beynon or into these filing cabinets and  looked at B. F. 89-.19, I would find this notebook as  well as the second typed version?  That's right.  The second typed version?  I am sorry, the second version, which is the first  version that's typed.  That's the one that has collection Marius Barbeau,  Informant: Isaac Tens and Beynon?  That's right.  That's the first typed version?  Yes.  Now --  You edited that, did you?  I didn't edit it, I wrote it out and I re-spelled the  Indian terms using the first version.  Is your version here?  My version is the third one.  But it's not edited,  it's not a summary.  I see.  It's in the same tab.  Yes, I think I have come to it.  Yes, well, they  have spelled, Spookw, S-P-O-Q, it looks like, and you  have changed it to S-P-0-O-K-X.  Right.  There is no problem usinging the International  1  2  3  A  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  THE  COURT:  28  MR.  GRANT:  29  30  THE  COURT:  31  32  A  33  THE  COURT:  34  MR.  GRANT:  35  Q  36  THE  COURT:  37  A  38  39  THE  COURT:  40  A  41  42  THE  COURT:  43  MR.  GRANT:  44  THE  COURT:  45  46  47  A 16952  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief of Qualifications  by Mr. Grant  Linguistic System except that typewriters don't have  those letters on them.  :  And you have changed the names to modern spelling or  current spelling?  I tried to stay as close to the Rigsby --  :  The Rigsby spelling?  Yes.  Just look at that second version, Ms. Marsden, like  you have -- you say there, Gislagano's and above is  written or printed -- handwritten, Niislaganoos, the  first page, fourth line down?  Yes.  Is is that your handwritten addition there or would  that be on the film?  This isn't what I gave to the typist, but that's my  handwriting.  It was just for my own re-writing of  the —  All right.  And this is the Barbeau-Beynon file B-F  89-19, The Myth of Spookw, and I would ask that it be  marked as Exhibit 1042-19.  3:  My lord, I hadn't seen Ms. Marsden's work here  until this minute.  And so I suggest that it be marked  for identification to see whether anything turns on  the fact that I didn't see it until this minute.  Yes, all right.  Yes.  So this will be 1042 —  1042 (19)  Yes.  1  2  3  THE  COURT  4  5  A  6  THE  COURT  7  A  8  MR.  GRANT  9  Q  10  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  19  Q  20  21  22  MR.  WILLM  23  24  25  26  THE  COURT  27  MR.  GRANT  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  GRANT  30  THE  COURT  31  32  33  34  35  MR.  GRANT  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  46  47  (EXHIBIT 1042 (19) FOR IDENTIFICATION:  B-F89.19 re SPOOKW)  BARBEAU FILE  Now, are you familiar with what's known as the Duff  files?  Yes, I am.  Wilson Duff is now deceased, is that right?  That's right.  And he did -- did he do work with respect to the  Barbeau files that you are familiar with?  Yes, he went to Ottawa before Xeroxes and spent a year  there working with these two original sources.  Not  all of the handwritten notes were typed but he worked  with what was available then and he made summaries of  the information basically using the same form of 16953  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief of Qualifications  by Mr. Grant  organization but grouping the information more  completely under the categories of, in the case of the  coast Tsimshian, he used it, he did it by village and  then he did village, origins, territories, personal  names and crests, and among the Gitksan he did it by  village, village and then clan so it would be Kispiox,  Kisgaast, Kispiox and so on.  I would ask if you look at the next document book,  which refers to 13 of the Duff files, which are Duff  files relating to the Gitksan.  Is this the work  that -- is this the Duff files that you reviewed  relating to the Adaawk?  Yes.  :  Is this meant to be all of them, my lord, or just  the one that the witness selected?  No.  My lord, I am -- there is a second volume of  this, I believe there is a total of 27 files relating  to the Gitksan, plus, and the second volume is not yet  bound and I will have it later today for my friends.  This was disclosed to my friends, my recollection is  two years ago, and it's the plaintiffs' list of  documents 3271 since that time.  Now, what I would  like to ask you is:  Did Duff deal with, in his -- the Duff files that  relate to Barbeau and Beynon, did he deal with other  than the Gitksan?  Yes, as I said he did the coast Tsimshian and the  Nishga as well.  And this one reflects only some of the Gitksan ones,  this particular binder.  If you look at the table of  contents it refers to it.  Yes.  Did you tell me he did 27 Gitksan studies or 13  Gitksan studies?  There is 26 Gitksan files.  26?  Yes.  There will be a total of 27, as the Kitkatla  file is going to be on the second document book.  Did you review all of his files, that is the files  relating to the coast Tsimshian as well?  Yes, in my work with the Tribal Council, I did.  And you familiarized yourself with his work with  reference to the Barbeau-Beynon material.  I used it extensively.  Could we just reserve the next number for that  please.  The next number, actually.  Yes, 1044 and 1045.  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  MR.  WILLMS  15  16  MR.  GRANT:  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  THE  COURT:  34  35  MR.  GRANT:  36  THE  COURT:  37  MR.  GRANT:  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  MR.  GRANT:  46  47  THE  COURT: 16954  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief of Qualifications  by Mr. Grant  1 MR. GRANT:  All right.  That will be the Duff files relating to  2 Gitksan.  3 Q   Now, --  4 THE COURT:  Do you want to take the morning adjournment now, Mr.  5 Grant?  6 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  I am almost completed, my lord, but that would  7 be fine.  8  9 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A SHORT RECESS)  10  11  12  13 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  14 a true and accurate transcript of the  15 proceedings herein to the best of my  16 skill and ability.  17  18  19  20  21  22 Wilf Roy  23 Official Reporter  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 16955  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief on qualifications  by Mr. Grant  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT)  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  THE  THE  MR.  THE COURT:  MR. GRANT:  THE  MR.  MR.  MR. GRANT  MR. GRANT  THE  MR.  MR.  COURT:  Mr. Grant.  GRANT:  My lord, I would ask that these be marked as the  next series of exhibits.  What I have, I can advise  the Court, is an edited version of the Barbeau adaawk,  which include those adaawk -- the original versions of  those adaawk which relate to the Gitksan.  And the  next exhibit should be the "Gwenhoot of Alaska".  I'm sorry?  The "Gwenhoot", G-w-e-n-h-o-o-t, "of Alaska".  REGISTRAR:  That will be 146.  GRANT:  1046.  WILLMS:  My friend is reserving these numbers; is that  correct?  I'm tendering these now as exhibits.  (EXHIBIT 1046:  "Gwenhoot of Alaska Part 2")  The next one will be "Temlaham.  The Land of  Plenty".  COURT:  How do you spell Temlaham this time?  GRANT:  As Barbeau did, T-e-m-1-a-h-a-m.  (EXHIBIT 1047:  "Temlaham.  The Land of Plenty)  WILLMS:  My lord, perhaps while my friend is doing this, I,  of course, if the witness' evidence  objection to the witness' evidence,  then so is all of this material, so  be marked for identification.  THE COURT:  Well, I'm going to allow your friend to tender it  and then we'll deal it with it all at once.  MR. GRANT:  Well, these are the published adaawks of Barbeau.  They're not work of this witness.  THE COURT:  Why don't you finish your itemization of these  items.  Certainly, and then we can talk about it later.  I have "Temlaham.  The Land of Plenty".  The third one is --  REGISTRAR:  Just a moment.  1047 is what?  COURT:  Temlaham is 1047.  GRANT:  That's 1047 there.  The next one is "Raven Clan  Outlaws" and Part 1 of "Gwenhoot of Alaska", 1048.  (EXHIBIT 1048:  "Raven Clan Outlaws" and "Gwenhoot of  Alaska Part 1)  THE COURT:  Well, the earlier one, which I marked tentatively  1046, "Gwenhoot of Alaska", that would be Part 2, is  it?  MR. GRANT:  That would be Part 2, yes.  I'm sorry if these are  separated.  It's only separated for convenience of the  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  -- and I have an  If it's excluded,  I suggest this all  GRANT  COURT  GRANT 16956  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief on qualifications  by Mr. Grant  binder, actually.  THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  THE REGISTRAR:  Now, this is 1048.  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  MR.  Yes.  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  "Raven Clan Outlaws" was not in already?  Some of those adaawk from "Raven Clan Outlaws" went  in through Dr. Daly.  Yes.  All right.  And I believe through Mr. Brody. The final one is  "Wolf-clan Invaders from the Northern Plateaux Among  the Tsimshians".  That would be 1049.  (EXHIBIT 1049:  "Wolf-Clan Invaders from the Northern  Plateaux Among the Tsimshians")  Possibly I gave Madam Registrar two copies of  "Wolf-Clan Invaders", four copies, as my friends  indicate they don't have them, so I may have given  them to you twice.  Well, I have "Wolf-Clan Invaders From The Northern  Plateaux" here.  THE REGISTRAR:  I have one.  MR. GRANT:  THE COURT:  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  GRANT  You only have one, my lord?  Yes.  I only have one.  I'll deal with that.  These were -- these were -- a  series of these were delivered.  My friends indicate  not that one and I'll just have to check later.  Is the plateaux spelled with an x the same as  plateau without the X or does it have another meaning?  I think it's the same meaning.  Thank you.  Is that correct, Ms. Marsden, from your reading?  I've never seen it with an X, have you?  I think that was Barbeau's unique spelling, plateaux.  Now --  Oh, he was French Canadian.  Barbeau was a French Canadian, yes.  These documents -- these books that I have just  filed with the Court and you've heard me give the  titles of them, these are the Barbeau typewritten  adaawk separate from the Barbeau microfilms, is that  right, that you refer to?  That's right.  And if you could just take "Wolf-Clan Invaders" as  an example.  Put it in front of the witness.  I'm  sorry.  My friends are anxious about that one, so  we'll put "Temlaham.  The Land of Plenty".  My friends  have had well over two years to look at these. 16957  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief on qualifications  by Mr. Grant  1 THE COURT:  I'm sure they have them all in their memories.  2 MR. GRANT:  3 Q   I'm sure they have them all in their files, but I  4 don't want to prejudice them in any way.  5 Now, if you look at the second page, it has "Part  6 2, The adaawk of the true traditions as recorded".  In  7 some of these there was a Part 1; is that right?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And what was Part 1?  10 A   Barbeau wanted to publish these and he -- he did his  11 own compilation of the adaawk and wrote it, and that  12 was Part 1, and then he put the originals as his  13 various translators had translated them in this Part  14 2.  15 Q   Did you rely on Part 1 in forming your opinions?  16 A   No.  17 Q   Can you say why not?  18 A  Well, I wanted to use only the original sources.  I  19 wanted to use the words of the informants in as pure a  20 form as I could.  21 THE COURT:  So the same subjects would be -- might be included  22 in both Parts 1 and 2?  23 THE WITNESS:  That's right.  24 THE COURT:  The ones he close to publish.  And what did he do,  25 modernize the language or something?  26 THE WITNESS:  No.  He — he took the discreet events in the  27 adaawk and tried to put them together in an order so  28 they made a sequential history.  29 THE COURT:  Yes.  So he edited the original for publication?  30 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  I think he was planning to publish both.  31 MR. GRANT:  32 Q   These -- your understanding is that he -- the  33 publication would have included what we have here?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Which is Part 2?  36 A   Yes.  37 MR. GRANT:  Now, the second point I wish to make is that if you  38 look here, it starts at the beginning, one, Gwenhoot,  39 Boas and, two, "The Gitksedzaw.  Village of the Nass".  4 0 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  I don't think we've heard that word  41 before.  It's G-i-t-k-s-e-w-z-a-w.  42 MR. GRANT:  S-e-d-z-a-w.  43 THE COURT:  S-e-d-z-a-w.  Sorry.  4 4 MR. GRANT:  45 Q   If I refer you to the "Adaawk Summaries of the Ancient  46 Histories of the Gisk'aast", in this case you -- in  47 that binder you have included a number of the adaawk 1695?  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  we've listed  How did he  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief on qualifications  by Mr. Grant  that were in Part 2 of Barbeau's "Temlaham.  The Land  of Plenty"?  That's right.  And, for example, the first tab there refers to Tab 2,  that name that I have just given, "Gitksedzaw.  Village of the Nass".  And that's the one that would  be at Tab 2 of Barbeau?  Well, it's number two in his Part 2.  Okay.  Now, my lord, just so that --  these four -- four books of Barbeau.  divide them?  By clan.  Okay.  So that the 34 -- the 34 adaawk in your "Adaawk  Summaries of the Ancient Histories of the Gisk'aast",  they all come out of "Temlaham.  The Land of Plenty"?  If I recall, I took some out of the Raven Clan because  their history intertwined with the Fireweed.  Q   Okay.  You understand that -- that the -- in this  bound version of "Temlaham.  The Land of Plenty", I  have not included every adaawk, but I've included  those that relate to the Gitksan and to your opinions?  A   Right.  MR. GRANT:  So, my lord, these are my editing so that we only  have four volumes rather than eight of the -- of the  Beynon material -- the Barbeau -- I'm sorry -- the  Barbeau adaawk.  It contains Part 2, the original  adaawk, which relate to the Gitksan.  Your lordship  raised that question, I believe, when we put in a  number with respect to Dr. Daly and I didn't want to  put in those that we don't see as relevant.  All right.  I will put in now Volume II and III of the Duff  files relating to the Gitksan.  And if you could put  Volume II in front of the witness.  THE REGISTRAR:  What numbers are these going to be?  MR. GRANT:  I'm sorry?  THE REGISTRAR:  What exhibit number?  MR. GRANT:  These would be the Exhibit  put these in two volumes.  I  them.  Maybe they could be A and B.  That was the  number of the Duff files.  1045A would be Volume II  and 1045B would be Volume III.  THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  1045 was — was 13 Gitksan adaawk and  one from Kitkatla, as I understood it to come later.  MR. GRANT:  That's what is coming now.  THE COURT:  All right.  So that's 1045.  And you want them A and  B?  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  -- in my absence I had to  had reserved a number for 16959  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief on qualifications  by Mr. Grant  :  Yes, because in the office while -- I thought they  would have them all in one binder, but they didn't.  What is A and what is B?  The -- they are the Wilson Duff files.  Well, now I'm sorry.  As between them, I take it  that Volume II that you've given me will be 1045A.  :  Yes.  Volume II will be 1045A and it will include  Wilson Duff files, transcription of Barbeau notebooks  Re:  Gitksan, Tabs 14 through 21.  :  14 to 21?  :  Yes.  (EXHIBIT 1045A:  Wilson Duff files, transcription of  Barbeau notebooks Re:  Gitksan, Volume II)  And 1045B —  Right.  B?  And 1045B will be Wilson Duff files, transcription  of Barbeau notebooks Re:  Gitksan, Volume III, files  22 through 27.  And that -- and that will be Tabs 22  through 27.  And that's my numbering of the files.  :  All right.  (EXHIBIT 1045B: Wilson Duff files, transcription of  Barbeau notebooks Re:  Gitksan, Volume III)  Madam Registrar can put Volume II in front of the  witness.  Take a look at Tab 14, Exhibit 1045A.  Do  you recognize this file, 76-page file?  Yes.  And is this the file of the Kitkatla origins?  Yes.  Now, I'd like you to use this file as an example and  just explain to the Court what -- to demonstrate what  these files contain and how you use them.  I believe  you could start at page 54 of the file.  Well, this is one of the files that Duff seems to have  done most extensively.  He has a number of summaries  of adaawk.  Some of these are from these four clan  ready to be published sets and some are straight from  the microfilm that were never chosen to be put in the  clan sets.  And that first page is a sample of that.  That's a summary of an adaawk.  Okay.  Then he's -- his second page is a listing of -- of  crests .  This is page 55 then, is it?  No.  I'm sorry.  You're starting on page 1.  Oh, I'm sorry.  I thought you were referring to page  54.  1  MR.  GRANT  2  3  THE  COURT  4  MR.  GRANT  5  THE  COURT  6  7  MR.  GRANT  8  9  10  THE  COURT  11  MR.  GRANT  12  13  14  MR.  GRANT  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  GRANT  17  18  19  20  THE  COURT  21  22  23  MR.  GRANT  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  GRANT  46  THE  COURT  47 16960  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief on qualifications  by Mr. Grant  1 MR. GRANT:  2 Q   No.  I indicated it was.  Go ahead.  3 A  A listing of crests of this group, the Gitnagunaks, as  4 evidenced in the adaawk that he was analysing.  Then  5 he goes on to analyse this group.  They're a -- what  6 we've been calling a Wilnat'ahl.  They're a subgroup  7 of the Gispewudwada, which is the same as the  8 Fireweed.  And he goes on to list chiefs' names and  9 the villages of some of the people in this group as  10 according to the informants Sheppard and Maxwell, and  11 this is a transcription of what's on the microfilm.  12 Q   Okay.  13 A  And then he goes on to talk about a subdivision of the  14 Gitnagunaks in the same way.  15 Q   Which page?  16 A   On page 4.  And again he takes three villages and  17 lists chiefs' names that belong to this subgroup.  18 Q   Yes.  19 A   Do you want me to go through the entire file?  20 Q   No, I don't.  I'd just like you to -- maybe you can go  21 over to page 54 now and explain what he is doing  22 there.  Maybe it starts at page 53, which has a  23 heading "Summary of Gitxa'ta Origins".  And in that  24 case it's G-i-t-x-a-apostrophe-t-a.  25 A   So here he's taking the previous pages which he's  26 transcribed from the microfilm or the original  27 notebooks and he's -- he's tried to put them in a form  28 that indicate where the groups that founded Kitkatla  29 were from, who came first, who came second and so on  30 and to get a sense of the chronology of the events in  31 the adaawk and the founding of this particular  32 village.  It's a very important village on the coast.  33 So his first page there you can see he's taken the  34 chiefs' names, I, II, III, IV in Roman numerals, and  35 he's summarized their origins.  And he was very  36 careful always to include any variations and opinion  37 from the different informants.  38 Q   This is on page 53?  39 A   Page 53 and then on page 54.  40 Q   Yes?  41 A  And you can see on 54 that he uses arrows to indicate  42 movement to other villages.  43 Q   Can you -- just, for example, that number VII,  44 Lutkudzemti.  45 A   Okay.  He's -- he's a Gwenhoot eagle.  That's --  46 that's the same Gwenhoot as on the title of one of  47 those volumes from Laxse'el.  Laxse'el was an Indian 16961  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief on qualifications  by Mr. Grant  1 village right at the southern tip of Tlingit territory  2 near Tongas.  From there that group migrated to Wales,  3 England and then he has arrows indicating movement to  4 other places.  And then he -- that group continued on  5 to join Kitkatla, and their spelling of Gitga'ata,  6 which is important because it sometimes gets mixed up  7 with Kitga'ata, which is Hartley Bay.  And then he --  8 THE COURT:  Sorry.  Hartley Bay?  9 THE WITNESS:  Hartley Bay is Kitga'ata.  10 And then he has the two names of the -- the  11 leading chief; that the eagle chief and other eagle  12 chief that were the first ones to arrive at Kitkatla.  13 And then he goes on on page 56 to summarize this again  14 in a more condensed form, in a slightly different way.  15 And this is -- this is what people working with these  16 files -- I can see what he was trying to do, because  17 you're trying to condense the information so that you  18 could get it in a form that it will render meaning  19 because it's so overwhelming in its detail.  2 0    MR. GRANT:  21 Q   When you just said "working with these files", you're  22 referring to the Barbeau files?  23 A  Well, the Barbeau originals and the Duff summaries.  24 Q   Okay.  Go ahead.  25 A   The Barbeau-Beynon originals.  So on page 56 he has --  26 he has organized the -- once again the Kitkatla people  27 and their origins by clan.  So he has a Gispewudwada,  28 which is the equivalent of the Fireweed, and then  29 Ganha'da, the frog, Laxhi'k, the eagles, and the  30 Laxkibu, which are the wolves.  And you can see by  31 these summaries in the first three, for example, that  32 that group of chiefs migrate from Temlaham, the third  33 one via Hartley Bay.  And that -- that forms a branch  34 of a Wilnat'ahl within Kitkatla.  35 Q   Just a moment.  The Gispewudwada is  36 G-i-s-p-e-w-a-d-w-a-d-a?  37 A  W-u.  38 Q   W-u-d-w-a-d-a.  And you referred -- that's a name used  39 for the Fireweed?  40 A   That's the coastal branch of the Fireweed Clan.  41 Q   Okay.  And is that reference to Temlaham the Temlaham  42 that we know about?  43 A   Yes.  And then on page 57 he's -- he's taken the  44 information again and tried to identify which groups  45 arrived -- arrived and founded Kitkatla and then the  46 ones that arrived later, and he's used the terms  47 earliest, early, middle and post-Tsibasaa, which means 16962  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief on qualifications  by Mr. Grant  1 after the dispersal from Temlaham.  To get a sense of  2 the time depth, you can see that he's trying to get a  3 sense of the chronology of events for this particular  4 village.  5 Q   Is Tsibasaa -- is that a chief's name as well?  6 A   Tsibasaa is a chief's name.  When he says  7 post-Tsibasaa, he's using that as an indication that  8 it's after the dispersal from Temlaham, because that's  9 when Tsibasaa migrated from Temlaham to the coast.  10 Q   Just a moment.  Okay.  Go ahead.  11 A  And then on page 58 -- and this is something that I've  12 done also.  I find it very useful.  He's taken key  13 quotes that he thinks are clues for him in terms of  14 his understanding of the information generally.  Some  15 of the informants sometimes said things very  16 succinctly and very powerfully and he's just done that  17 there for his own reference.  And then on page 61 --  18 Q   Just -- those quotes from the key informants, this  19 would come out of the files of Barbeau?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Okay.  22 A   Sometimes from adaawk and sometimes simply from the  23 interviews, the questions that are being asked.  24 Q   Okay.  25 A  And then on page 61 you can see he's broken the  26 chronology down in a different way, once again using  27 the four clans but using the chiefs' names in columns.  28 And he starts -- he starts the -- the most ancient  29 arrivals are at the bottom and he moves up.  30 Q   Okay.  31 A   The most recent is at the top.  And then on page 60 --  32 my 60 and 61 are backwards.  33 Q   Yeah.  60 and 61 should be reversed on my copy as  34 well.  35 A   On page 60 -- he hasn't done this very often in his  36 files.  You can see that he's -- that he's looked at  37 this information and now he's trying to get a graphic  38 way of portraying it to indicate the movements of the  39 different chiefs that are branches of the different  40 Wilnat'ahls through the villages on the coast.  And he  41 has Tsibasaa leaving Temlaham, going to Kitsegukla,  42 then going down to Ketselas, then some branches to  43 other villages in that Ketselas area and then down to  44 the coast at Gispaxlo'ts and then the various  45 interaction with the second wave of the migration from  46 Temlaham, which is Wisa'ax, out of Kitsegukla.  And  47 that's what he's done there. 16963  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief on qualifications  by Mr. Grant  1 Q   Is the dotted line to the right the Wisa'ax line?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And the solid line is the --  4 A   Tsibasaa, the original.  5 THE COURT:  And this is intended to reflect the original  6 dispersal from Temlaham, is it?  7 THE WITNESS:  That's right.  8 THE COURT:  He has here towards Temlaham, doesn't he?  9 THE WITNESS:  He's got them coming down from Temlaham and then  10 out of Kitsegukla.  He has some of those people going  11 back up river.  12 THE COURT:  I see.  13 THE WITNESS:  And then Wisa'ax established himself at Kitsegukla  14 but didn't stay and later came to the coast and joined  15 him.  16 THE COURT:  I see it says "Some went up river".  17 THE WITNESS:  That's right.  He's got Tsibasaa and all  18 relatives -- I think that's what he's saying there --  19 and then local winter all moved to Kitsegukla.  And  20 that's -- the local winter is the adaawk of the  21 snowfall.  22 MR. GRANT:  23 Q   And is that -- is that arrow going back up river --  24 somewhat up river from Kitsegukla, is that similar to  25 what you found?  26 A   Yes.  When they disperse from Temlaham, they didn't  27 all go to the coast.  28 Q   Is this -- would this chart be referring specifically  29 to the Fireweed or would it be referring to --  30 A   It's -- he's only graphing here the Fireweed  31 Wilnat'ahl from Temlaham.  32 Q   Okay.  Thank you.  Now, there's three bodies of  33 material to which are originals that you've dealt  34 with, one of which is Duff's to the extent that his  35 analysis is original as well.  What did you do with  36 this volume of adaawk, the Barbeau-Beynon microfilm  37 and the Duff files?  What did you do in terms of your  38 work?  39 A   The adaawk alone don't enable you always to  40 chronologize all the events.  And what these files do,  41 especially the origin files but also the other ones on  42 crests and to a lesser extent personal names, they  43 allow you to -- to get a sense of -- as he's done  44 here, of who arrived where first and how they -- how  45 they interconnected and then that allows you to place  46 the adaawk in that -- that allows you -- helps you to  47 place the adaawk in a chronology.  That isn't 16964  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief on qualifications  by Mr. Grant  1 indicated in full in the adaawk themselves.  2 MR. GRANT:  Now, if we go back to Exhibit 1043 — that's the —  3 that's that chart you did of the Fireweed.  This is  4 this ancient history chart, my lord.  5 THE COURT:  Where was that?  6 MR. GRANT:  In the summary of the Gisk'aast, ancient history of  7 the Gisk'aast summaries.  8 THE COURT:  1043, did you say?  9 MR. GRANT:  Exhibit 1043.  It's entitled "Adaawk.  Summaries of  10 the Adaawk.  Ancient Histories of the Gisk'aast",  11 before Tab 1, the eighth page in.  12 THE COURT:  Yes.  13 MR. GRANT:  14 Q   And it's this chart.  Now, that chart is a -- from my  15 observation that is a sequencing of the adaawk; is  16 that right?  17 A   That's right.  18 Q   Which you did and in this case with respect to the  19 Fireweed?  2 0          A   Right.  21 THE COURT:  Is there a similar one for the other clans?  22 THE WITNESS:  No.  23 THE COURT:  Okay.  2 4 MR. GRANT:  25 Q   And can you -- you did sequence the other clans,  26 although you didn't do a chart; is that right?  27 A   This is the Temlaham group of the Gisk'aast, which  28 in -- it gets a little complicated -- which  29 constitutes most of the Gisk'aast.  However, this is  30 not the total history of Gispewudwada branch of the  31 same clan.  32 Q   Now, what I'd like to ask you about is, first of all,  33 how long did you work with the adaawk and the Duff  34 files in order to be able to do this kind of  35 chronology?  How long did it take you in terms of your  36 analysis of the adaawk?  37 A  Well, in the case of the Fireweed, their adaawk  38 contained a lot of information that allowed me to  39 chronologize them alone, and then I found it far more  40 difficult with the other clans and that was when I  41 started to use the Duff files to help put things in  42 order.  And I did that process over -- over the four  43 years that I worked with the tribal council.  44 Q   Did you do that full time?  45 A   Yes, I did.  46 Q   Did you -- or did you review archaeological and other  47 anthropological papers as part of your research work 16965  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief on qualifications  by Mr. Grant  1 at that time?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And who -- who did you look at?  4 A  Well, once I -- once I'd realized that it was possible  5 to put these in sequence, I was trying to look for a  6 sense of the time depth and the -- and I looked at  7 archaelogical dates for the key villages where  8 archaeological work had been done -- not the villages  9 necessarily but the areas, and Skeena River prehistory  10 by MacDonald and his co-workers was one of them, one  11 of the main ones.  And MacDonald published some of his  12 findings at Prince Rupert Harbour in an article in  13 B.C. studies and I looked at the -- basically the  14 overview of the Skeena River archaeology, which was  15 most -- the rest of it was mostly in people's minds  16 and I talked to some archaeologists about that.  17 Q   Okay.  Can you go back to Exhibit 1042, the binder  18 with your C.V.?  I'd ask you to look at Tab 2.  Is  19 that the bibliography that sets out work that you  20 familiarized yourself and read?  21 A   These are the sources that I ended up relying on in  22 forming my opinion, but I read other articles,  23 primarily articles that proved not to be useful.  24 Q   Okay.  Now, I'd like you to refer to Tab 25, which is  25 the MacDonald article, "An Overview of North Coast  26 Prehistory Project", MacDonald and Inglis.  Is that  27 one of the documents that you referred to?  28 A   Yes.  This is a good summary.  29 Q   Of the archaeological work?  30 A   Yes.  At Prince Rupert Harbour.  31 Q   Did you obtain and review a copy of the thesis of  32 Copeland?  33 A   I was told about his work before his thesis was  34 complete and when his thesis was complete, I looked at  35 it.  I obtained a copy and looked at it.  36 Q   And that was before the completion of your report?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Did you -- you worked and prepared this report in 1986  39 and '87; is that right?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And did you also -- were you also involved during this  42 time period in working on the naming -- the names --  43 on ownership by chiefs of fishing sites?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And what did you do with respect to that?  46 A   There was information that had already been collected  47 in the -- in the tribal council files and -- but it 16966  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief on qualifications  by Mr. Grant  1 hadn't been put in such a form as to correlate  2 information by chief or by fishing site and so I  3 started to work on correlating that information so it  4 would be more useable.  5 Q   Okay.  And were you involved in the preparation of the  6 map of fishing sites prepared in conjunction with Mike  7 Morrell?  8 A  Well, the task became so great that somebody was hired  9 to work under my direction and do the -- correlate the  10 information and then I used those correlations in  11 conjunction with Mike Morrell.  We used them together.  12 Q   And that was correlation of which information?  13 A   There had been -- information was collected on the  14 fishing sites over a long period of time by a large  15 number of people, and there was also information  16 moderately in published sources -- not maybe  17 published, but in printed sources.  18 Q   Okay.  And did you use your knowledge of the adaawk  19 and adaawk references?  20 A   In some of that work the adaawk were tied in with the  21 fishing sites.  22 Q   Now, from June -- from the spring of 1988 to the  23 present time, you have been working at the Prince  24 Rupert Museum?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And you're presently the Registrar of Artifacts at the  27 Prince Rupert Museum?  28 A   Yes.  2 9 Q   And you have continued your work on not only  30 historical work but on the Indian presence on the  31 Northwest -- Indian history of the Northwest coast?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And last summer you were involved in working with Dave  34 Archer regarding archaeological work in Prince Rupert  35 Harbour?  36 A   I was able to go out several times with him on his  37 archaeological survey of the area and --  38 Q   And you've taken -- I'm sorry.  39 A  And helped.  40 Q   Have you taken courses in archives as part of your  41 work with the museum, in archives and design, in  42 museum principles and in conservation of material?  43 A   That's right.  44 Q   You've described -- with respect to the Kitkatla file,  45 you've explained the work that Duff appears to have  46 done from -- is that work similar to the work that you  47 have done? 16967  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  In chief on qualifications  by Mr. Grant  Yes.  That's -- I've -- the work that I have done is  more complex.  I'm sure he would have gotten into the  complexity had he continued in that line.  Okay.  And has anyone else, to your knowledge, done  the work that you have done in terms of the analysis  of these adaawk?  There are other -- there are other people who have  certainly read them and they've used them in -- in  more limited ways.  I know that Drucker was familiar  with them.  He used them to basically summarize  origins of people and that was his conclusions from  reading them.  MacDonald has used them extensively in  his -- in his work on trade and warfare.  That's George MacDonald?  George MacDonald.  And John Cove and George MacDonald  have published edited versions of them, but not -- not  in a chronological compilation.  I should -- just to be clear, as well as I referred to  a listing of the sources you used, as well as the  adaawk which we referred to in these binders, did you  also in formulating your opinions with respect to your  report for the Court, did you rely on the Men of  Madiik and the Wars of Madiik?  Yes.  And also I acquired wherever I could the  recorded adaawk of other people.  They may not call  them adaawk.  They're variously titled as far south as  the Owiikenox branch of the Kwakiutl people and as far  north as the Tahltan and the Tlingit.  And De Laguna,  who's an American anthropologist, used the Tlingit  oral histories and she also made efforts at putting  them in chronological order in a more limited way.  :  Okay.  I'm just tendering the report, which is in  two volumes.  I just wanted to refer to one part of  it, which related to methodology or related to her  expertise.  :  It's in the same volume, is  :  No, my lord.  Her report is  now.  :  I thought I saw the report.  1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  20  21  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  MR.  GRANT  33  34  35  36  THE  COURT  37  MR.  GRANT  38  39  THE  COURT  40  MR.  GRANT  41  Q  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  it, as the chart?  -- I'm just tendering it  All right.  If you could provide that to the Court and just give  her Volume 1.  I'm just referring to page 3 on Volume 1 of the  report.  Could you refer to page 3 of Volume 1?  First  of all, this is your report that you prepared for  evidence in this case?  Yes. 1696?  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on qualifications  by Mr. Willms  Q   And that bottom paragraph on page 3 and going on to  page 4, does that summarize some of those sources with  which you -- the commencement of your work when you  were working with the adaawk after you were retained  by the tribal council?  A   Yes.  MR. GRANT:  I'll just be — I'll just reserve the next number  for it, but I --  THE COURT:  All right.  1046.  THE REGISTRAR:  1049.  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  MR. GRANT:  THE COURT:  MR. GRANT:  THE COURT:  1050, I believe.  It would be 1050, would it?  Yes.  (EXHIBIT 1050:  Reserved)  It's all -- I should just advise your lordship it's  all one report, but because of some computer matters  at the time, it recommences -- Volume 2 recommences on  page 1, so -- but it is all one report.  All right.  Thank you.  Thank you, Miss Marsden.  You can answer Mr. Willms'  questions.  Mr. Willms?  CROSS-EXAMINATION ON QUALIFICATIONS BY MR. WILLMS:  Q   My lord, my friend reserved 1044 and 1045 and then --  and then I think he tendered 1046 through 1049, which  are all oral histories, and then we were -- there was  a bit of a hiatus.  I object to the marking of all of  those, whether or not this witness is qualified, on  the grounds that they're hearsay.  It's an objection  that's been made before.  I understand that an  argument will be made at some point on the  admissibility of them, but I do object on that general  ground, which is in addition to the ground that if a  witness isn't qualified, then they don't go in either.  Ms. Marsden, you attended Carleton University  in 1964 for one year and you took French and Russian?  Yes.  And then you attended McGill in '65 and '66 and you  again took French and Russian?  Yes.  Then you went to the University of Toronto and  obtained an Honours B.A. in philosophy?  Yes.  And I think there you said you took one course in  anthropology?  Yes.  Can you describe that course, please?  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q 16969  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 A   It was a basic introductory course.  2 Q   A survey course?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And, as I understand it, that is the only university  5 course in anthropology you've taken?  6 A   That's correct.  7 Q   Now, in 1970 and '71 you attended Simon Fraser and  8 received your diploma for teaching and education?  9 A   Urn-hum.  10 Q   And you've been teaching off and on ever since, that  11 is until about 1984?  12 A  Well, I don't -- wouldn't say that that was the main  13 thing that I've been doing since then.  I've been -- I  14 did teaching.  I did curriculum development.  I did  15 research.  I've done work for tribal council and now  16 I'm working for a museum.  17 Q   Up until 1984 you did quite a bit of work in the  18 education field?  19 A   Yes.  2 0 Q   And have you been up until the employment with the  21 Prince Rupert Museum continuously employed by the  22 Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council from about 1983 to  23 date?  24 A   I stopped working there in '87.  25 Q   So from 1983 to 1987?  26 A   In '83 I was still working as a teacher and I was  27 volunteering, so I did all my work in the evenings and  28 on weekends, and from '84 to '87 I was employed full  2 9 time.  30 Q   Full time.  And in 1973 that's when you married Barry  31 Marsden?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   He is Gitksan?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And his -- his name is A-x-d-e-s-i-m-s-k-i-i; is that  36 right?  37 A  Axdesimskii.  38 Q   Yes.  39 A   I think he's changed his name since that one.  40 Q   Do you know what his present chiefly name is?  41 A   No, I don't offhand.  We're divorced.  42 Q   And the house -- he belongs to the House of  43 G-u-x-s-a-n?  44 A   Guxsan, yes.  45 Q   You spoke about Solomen Marsden.  Your mother-in-law  46 is Kathleen Marsden?  47 A   Yes. 16970  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on qualifications  by Mr. Willms  She also belongs to the House of Guxsan?  Yes.  And her chiefly name is M-i-i-n-g-e-m-g-e-n?  Miingemgen.  Is that correct?  The same time that Barry changed his name, I think she  took that name off herself and put it on her eldest  son, if I remember correctly.  Do you know what her name is right now?  I think she remained nameless.  Is that name --  It was unusual.  Was that name the second or third ranked name in the  House of Guxsan?  It's a very important name.  It's in the top three.  And you belong to the House of Gwinuu?  Gwinuu, yes.  Which is Kitwancool?  That's correct.  Do you have a chiefly name?  I don't have a chiefly name.  I have an Indian name.  What's that?  Galexoptxw.  Can you spell that, please?  G-a-1-e-x-o-p-t-x-w.  When were you adopted into the House of Gwinuu?  I think it was on our first anniversary, so it would  be in '74.  What house do your children belong to?  They belong to the House of Xamlaxyeltexw.  How do you spell that?  X-a-m-1-a-x-y-e-l-t-e-x-w.  :  Y-e-1-t-e-x-w?  3S:  Yes.  That's the house of my father-in-law,  Solomen Marsden.  That's his Indian name.  So they're in his house?  That's correct.  Your two volumes have been handed up of your report of  1987.  Did you prepare any drafts of that?  I prepared one draft.  When was that?  I'm afraid I'm not very good with exact years.  It was  in the last year and a half I was working there.  So it would be a year, year and a half before you  published the final report?  Yes.  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  THE COURT  34  THE WITNE  35  36  MR. GRANT  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  A 16971  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 Q   What did you do with that?  2 A  Within the last year and a half.  3 Q   What did do you with that draft?  4 A   I left a copy with the tribal council office.  5 Q   Did you keep any copies yourself?  6 A   No.  7 Q   Who did you leave it with at the tribal council  8 office?  9 A  With the library.  10 Q   Was there a person in the library?  11 A   I don't recall which person I gave it to.  12 Q   Who was in the library?  13 A  Who was working there?  14 Q   Yes.  At the time you left the report there, the  15 draft.  16 A   There was Jean, and I think she had two assistants at  17 the time.  18 Q   Did you give a copy of the draft to Mr. Overstall?  19 A   There were drafts circulated for comment.  I don't  2 0 know who all got them.  21 Q   All right.  Did you correspond about your draft with  22 anybody in the tribal council or with the solicitors,  23 that is Mr. Grant, Mr. Rush, Ms. Mandell?  Did you  24 write about your draft?  25 A   No, not —  26 Q   Did you meet with them and talk about it?  27 A   There were -- there were discussions about it.  28 Q   But you don't have any notes or any documents arising  29 out of those still with you?  30 A  What happened with the first draft, that it was so  31 voluminous and it was only half done, I'd only gotten  32 half-way through the time span I was planning to  33 cover, that it became obvious that a whole new  34 approach had to be taken, and that was to -- to cut --  35 cut down tremendously, and from then on I just wrote.  36 I wrote and handed it in to be typed and that's how --  37 that's how it went.  There was extreme time pressure.  38 Q   You wrote it once and it was typed once and you didn't  39 change it at all?  40 A  Well, I proof-read it.  Of course I proof-read it.  41 Q   And what happened to those proofs as they came back  42 that you proof-read?  43 A   I proof-read them, gave them back to the secretary and  44 then they were thrown away.  45 Q   Yes.  Now, other than the one draft of your report  46 which you don't have, did you do any other written  47 work on the topics that you're proposing to give 16972  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 evidence on?  2 A   Just that work that led up to this, the various  3 summaries and charts and so on that I -- that I  4 evolved in preparing my report.  5 Q   It's just that during your evidence on your  6 qualifications, my friend mentioned some work that you  7 had done to assist counsel in argument.  Did you do  8 written work for counsel?  9 A   I was asked to prepare some work for legal counsel in  10 preparation for the case.  11 Q   Yes.  And did the work that you did there incorporate  12 some of the work or reflect some of the work that's in  13 your report or was it completely different?  14 A   It was -- it was a -- it was on the same subject.  It  15 was on the same subject in the sense that I used the  16 same raw materials.  It wasn't on the same subject in  17 the sense it was -- my opinions in my report are not  18 what I was writing about in those things that I  19 prepared.  20 Q   But it was in the same area and you used the same  21 data?  22 A   I used the same basic material.  23 Q   Do you still have copies of that material?  24 A  Well, I'm referring to what's been put out here, all  25 of the adaawk and all of the Duff files and to a  26 lesser extent the actual microfilm.  27 Q   What I'm referring to is the material that you  28 prepared for counsel that's based on the adaawks?  29 A   No.  I never kept it.  I never kept any copies of  30 that.  It wasn't for me.  31 Q   Do you know whether or not there are still copies of  32 that work around?  33 A   I don't know.  34 THE COURT:  Shall we break for lunch, Mr.Willms?  35 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until  36 two o'clock.  37 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  38 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  39 a true and accurate transcript of the  40 proceedings transcribed to the best  41 of my skill and ability.  42  43  44  45 Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  4 6 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  47 16973  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on Qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 2 O'CLOCK P.M.)  2  3 MR. WILLMS:  4 Q   Ms. Marsden, when were you first retained to prepare a  5 report or to give evidence in this case?  6 A   I can't remember exactly when the decision was made  7 but it was after I started work at Tribal Council,  8 probably about -- I'd have as to estimate, probably  9 about a year into my work there.  10 Q   So is that '84 or '85?  11 A   Probably around '85.  12 Q   Were you requested to sign an employment contract?  13 A   No.  14 Q   And you never did sign a written employment contract?  15 A   No.  16 Q   Did you ever receive a letter from Mr. Overstall or  17 from anyone at the Tribal Council, setting out what  18 your opinion should deal with?  19 A   No.  Unlike the other researchers I wasn't hired on  20 contract for a specific assignment, I was hired to do  21 something, and my opinion paper evolved out of working  22 there.  23 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, perhaps the gray binders could have the  24 next number and then I will fill them up.  25 THE COURT:  All right.  26 THE REGISTRAR:  1051, my lord  27  28 (EXHIBIT 1051:  GRAY BINDER OF DEFENDANTS DOCUMENTS)  29  30 MR. WILLMS:  31 Q   Ms. Marsden, I am showing you a letter dated December  32 19, 1986.  It's a letter from Mr. Rush and the  33 addresee is Dr. Brody, but you will see down at the  34 bottom that you received a copy of this letter, if you  35 look on the first page?  3 6 A   Hm-hmm.  37 Q   You recall this letter, do you?  38 A   I have seen this.  39 MR. WILLMS:  My lord could that be 1051-1?  4 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  41  42 (EXHIBIT 1051-1: LETTER DATED DECEMBER 19, 1986)  43  44 Q   If you turn to the second page -- first of all, the  45 second page is what Mr. Rush has done is sent you a  46 copy of the letter setting out the qualifications of  47 the plaintiffs' expert witnesses to counsel for the 16974  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on Qualifications  by Mr. Willms  defence; do you recognize that?  Yes.  And you will see you are the first one and your  particular area is anthropology and history of the  Gitksan people?  Yes, I remember that because I commented afterwards  that I didn't like the use of the term anthropology.  Who did you comment on that to?  I don't remember specifically.  Is that a mistake, as far as you're concerned?  Well, the nature of what I have done is not easily  classifiable and there has been ongoing debate as to  how to classify it and my opinion is that it is not  strictly anthropological, what I do.  But you knew in 1986 that you had been described as  somebody who was going to give evidence of  anthropology and history of the Gitksan people, you  knew that?  Yes.  And what you're saying today is that you disagreed  with that?  No, I just -- well, this letter wasn't a definitive  letter.  I mean, this was part of a process and at  this stage in the process, anthropology was put down.  Yes.  And the next step in the process was that I disagreed  with it in a strict -- in a strict way.  And you communicated by letter to indicate your  disagreement with that description?  No, I am not really a memo person.  I do most of my  communicating orally.  When you prepared your report, you have based it  primarily on written accounts that were initially  recorded by Barbeau and Beynon?  That's one of the main sources.  Well, Duff's material is from Barbeau, correct?  Duff did his own research also but the material we  went through this morning is based on Barbeau and  Beynon.  Now prior to reading Barbeau for the first time, what  academic training did you have in oral history?  :  Maybe my friend could clarify, because whether he is  referring to the Barbeau Adaawk or The Totem Poles of  the Gitksan, both of them are Barbeau.  Prior to reading the Barbeau histories that you are  chronologizing, what academic training did you have in  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  42  MR. GRANT  43  44  45  MR. WILLM  46  Q  47 16975  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on Qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 assessing oral histories?  2 A   There isn't, strictly speaking, academic training  3 available in assessing oral histories.  Oral histories  4 are dealt with by anthropologists in different ways  5 and there is one historian who has dealt with oral  6 histories as history, but in terms of going to a  7 university and getting a degree in a discipline that  8 deals thoroughly with oral history as history, it  9 doesn't exist.  10 Q   You wouldn't call yourself an anthropologist, would  11 you?  12 A   No.  13 Q   And in fact it's your view that the study of oral  14 history is not considered one of the subjects in  15 anthropology?  16 A   Not as a subdivision of anthropology.  However,  17 anthropologists have looked at the oral histories and  18 as you saw this morning, realized that there was  19 meaningful historical content in them and they have  20 worked with them in varying degrees, once they become  21 anthropologists, but not as part of their training in  22 anthropology, to my knowledge.  23 Q   So that the study of oral history is not considered by  24 you to be one of the subjects in anthropology?  25 A   I didn't -- I said it's not available.  26 Q   Well, let me just put that question to you and see  27 whether you can say yes or no.  28 A  Well, there are, there are thinkers in anthropology  29 today who are looking at oral histories and  30 reassessing the anthropological point of view as far  31 as oral history is concerned.  And it is possible that  32 in the future oral histories will be treated by  33 anthropologists but they have to redo some of their  34 basic theoretical frameworks and they have to develop  35 new methodology in order to do that.  36 Q   Do you remember giving evidence at a trial, Regina  37 versus Arthur Matthews, November 4th, 1985 in the  38 Provincial Court?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Could you turn to page 39, please, of the transcript.  41 I am on page 39.  And you were asked this question at  42 line four:  43  44 "Q   Have you in your studies done anything more  45 than gather up, have stories repeated to you  46 and check them against what was told to Barbeau  47 and Beynon, is that the basic purpose of your 16976  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on Qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 study?  2 A   No, no.  To get back to your question about  3 whether I am an anthropologist, the reason I am  4 not is that the type of anthropology that I  5 wanted to pursue was not available and still  6 isn't.  The study of oral history is not  7 considered one of the subjects in anthropology  8 and so what I would say what I do is what would  9 be done were there courses in university on  10 them.  In other words, I just don't read it and  11 compare it, I analyze it and -- and try to put  12 it into a logical hole (sic)."  13 THE WITNESS: That's a typo.  14 MR. WILLMS:  15 Q   And then the question:  16  17 "Q   Yes.  18 A  Which is basically what anthropologists do  19 with other cultures."  20  21 Were you asked that question and did you give that  22 answer in 1985?  23 A   Yes, except the world "hole" should be W-H-O-L-E.  24 Q   And that answer is true?  25 A   Yes, as long as you take the word subjects as a -- in  26 the sense of pursuing it as a branch of anthropology.  27 It's been dealt with by anthropologists but you can't  28 apply to take a PhD and specialize in the study of  29 oral history as history.  30 Q   Well, who would you say are the leading people in the  31 field of oral history?  32 A   I think it's something that's starting.  33 Q   Is that -- does that answer me, you are?  34 A   No, I wouldn't say leading and I wouldn't say field at  35 this point.  But it is a historian who has done work  36 with oral histories, among the African people.  37 Q   Whose writings in the study of oral histories do you  38 rely on as authoritative?  39 A  When I first moved among the Gitksan people, I was  40 told by them that the people, the things the white  41 people call stories are not stories, they are history.  42 And as I lived amongst them and was told some of their  43 histories, and as I read more over the years, those  44 are the authorities that I referred to in terms of  45 what these were and what they meant.  46 Q   Whose writings in the study of oral histories do you  47 rely on as authoritative? 16977  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on Qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 A   There aren't writings on oral history, except for  2 Vansina.  3 THE COURT:  Well there is Barbeau and Beynon and Duff, surely?  4 A   That's I was saying previously, there are  5 anthropologists who have looked at oral histories and  6 who have worked with them.  But you can't study that  7 on your way to being an anthropologist.  8 MR. WILLMS:  9 Q   I am showing you an annotated bibliography, Approaches  10 to the Analysis of Oral Tradition, done by Dr.  11 Cruikshank from the University of British Columbia.  12 Have you seen this document before?  13 A   I have had occasion to look through it.  14 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, 1051-2?  15 THE COURT:  You're not going to put the transcript in?  16 MR. WILLMS:  I wasn't planning to.  She said she agreed with it,  17 my lord.  18 THE COURT:  All right.  19  20 (EXHIBIT 1051-2: APPROACHES TO THE ANALYSIS OF ORAL  21 TRADITION: AN ANNOTATED BIBLIOGRAPHY - JULIE  22 CRUIKSHANK, NOVEMBER 10,1985)  23  24 MR. WILLMS:  25 Q   If you can turn in the annotated bibliography -- there  26 is a couple of pages numbered one, a contents page  27 with a one and then if you turn the page there is  28 Approaches to the Analysis of Oral Tradition.  Now Dr.  29 Cruikshank starts off by saying:  30 "Any student who hoping to find a body of  31 anthropological literature with clear  32 ethnographic instruction about how to approach  33 analysis of oral tradition will be be  34 disappointed.  The literature provides a  35 fascinating variety of starting points but any  36 direction selected inevitably leads us to other  37 points of departure and to a sense that no single  38 'method' will tell us what we want to know.  39 There is no 'unified theory of myth' to guide  4 0 us."  41  42 Just pausing there, in your study, do you agree  43 that there is no unified theory of myth to guide you  44 in assessing oral histories?  45 A   In our culture, in the academic world, yes.  46 Q   There is none?  47 Dr. Cruikshank carries on: 1697?  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on Qualifications  by Mr. Willms  "Historical-philological folklorists, for example,  have viewed oral narratives as cultural artifacts  and survivals which come from earlier periods of  human history.  Social anthropologists have  countered that narratives reflect the  contemporary culture of their bearers and have  nothing to do with the past."  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  MR. GRANT:  A  WILLMS  MR.  Q  A  Just pausing there, you're not a social  anthropologist, is that accurate?  A   No, no.  I can show you the section that I think what  I do fall under in terms of the approach to oral  history.  Q   But just pausing there, would you call yourself a  historical-philological folklorist?  I hope not.  Maybe my friend can explain the term first,  would like to know --  I am not -- I don't know anything about the field.  I am not an expert in oral histories.  I take it you don't understand what that means? I  don't.  Folklore is the term that's usually used to accounts  that are not considered very serious in terms of oral  traditions.  Q   Let's carry on, Dr. Cruikshank carries on and says  this :  "Structuralists proclaim that they are related to  neither past nor present but hold the key to a  theory of minds."  Would you call yourself a structuralist?  A   No.  I am familiar with the approach that they have,  no.  Q   And then:  "Literary critics have treated them as artistic  products both in their form and in their function  in society."  Would you call yourself a literary critic?  A   No.  It's interesting because when I was in university  I was interested in myth at that time and in my  exploration of trying to find a department that  covered it, it was just this kind of thing and the  literary department does deal with myth as literature  but that isn't what I was interested in. 16979  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on Qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 Q   What Dr. Cruikshank does, in pages two through six,  2 she sets out what she is going to -- the bibliography  3 that she is going to annotate but she breaks it down  4 into 13 sub headings, and on page 3 here, the sub  5 heading "oral history", where she says:  6  7 "This section considers some of the controversies  8 about whether or how oral tradition constitutes a  9 contribution to oral history, comparable to  10 documented history.  It calls attention to the  11 need for an interpretive framework for discussion  12 of traditions refering to the past."  13  14 Is that where you would --  15 A   That comes as close, closer than any of the others.  16 Q   All right.  Maybe we could turn to that and, my lord,  17 the numbering starts over again with each section.  18 But it's Roman numeral III.  19 THE COURT:  On the next section?  20 MR. WILLMS:  It starts on a page all its own, the best I can do,  21 it's about ten pages --  22 THE COURT: I have got it.  Thank you.  23 MR. WILLMS:  24 Q   Are you at that page, Ms. Marsden?  Dr. Cruikshank  25 starts off:  26  27 "The value of oral narrative as a kind of 'oral  28 history' has long been a subject of controversy  29 in anthropology."  30  31 Were you aware of that?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Yes.  So that even though you don't consider it to be  34 a subject in anthropology, you know it's been the  35 subject of controversy in anthropology?  36 A   They are dealing with these oral histories, they have  37 to be forming opinions on them.  38 Q   Dr. Cruikshank continues:  39  40 "British social anthropologists, operating in a  41 functionalist tradition, maintain that what  42 people said about their past was largely  43 irrelevant.  Narrative accounts of history had  44 little value in and of themselves and served as  45 charters to challenge the present social order."  46  47 Just pausing there, do you agree with any or all 16980  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on Qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 of that?  2 A   I think there is information in any -- you can look at  3 a body of information in a number of different ways.  4 I am not saying that that is an invalid way of looking  5 at it but I certainly disagree with the fact that they  6 have little value in and of themselves.  Maybe they do  7 serve as charters, maybe you can argue that.  But I  8 don't see why one way of approaching them has to be  9 exclusive.  10 Q   Have you read anything by Malinowski?  11 A   I think we covered that in that survey course.  12 Q   Dr. Cruikshank carries on:  13  14 "In North America, where cultures were undergoing  15 enormous changes by the time anthropological  16 research began, the 'single informant' model was  17 more acceptable and informant testimony was given  18 more weight though there was still dispute about  19 how such texts should be interpreted."  20  21 Just pausing there, most of the oral histories that  22 you are relying on in your report are single informant  23 oral histories; is that correct?  24 A   You mean each individual oral history is one  25 informant?  26 Q   Yes.  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Have you read Swanton or Sapir?  29 A   I have read Swanton.  He's published a number of basic  30 texts of Haida and Tlingit people.  31 Q   How about Sapir?  32 A   Sapir was a linguist.  I read about his theories.  33 Q   The paragraph concludes:  34  35 "Then the French structuralists proposed that  36 narratives were not commentaries about human  37 history at all but rather statements about the  38 human mind.  The myth was not a charter but a  39 model, they argued, and furthermore it was a  40 model which obscured rather than clarified  41 reality."  42  43  44 Noq, do you agree with the proposition that oral  45 histories are not commentaries about human history at  46 all but are merely statements about the human mind?  47 A   Once again, I would say they hold information about 16981  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on Qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 the human mind but that they are not merely that and  2 they are not exclusively that and that maybe they  3 weren't intended to be that.  4 Q   Now, a familiar name pops up in the next paragraph,  5 Dr. Cruikshank says:  6  7 "When Jan Vansina wrote his seminal methodological  8 study of oral tradition in Africa, his aim was to  9 convince historians that they should attend to  10 sources other than colonial records in trying to  11 reconstruct history."  12  13  14 Have you read the work by Jan Vansina entitled Oral  15 Tradition, a Study in Historical Methodology?  16 A   I haven't studied it in depth but I have read over it  17 and I read parts that I thought were relevant to what  18 I was doing.  19 Q   But you wouldn't say that you have any familiarity  20 with the details in it?  21 A   In those parts where I thought it was similar to what  22 I was doing, I did.  23 Q   Dr. Cruikshank then says what happened after Vansina's  24 seminal study:  25  26 "He expected doubts from historians but his  27 strongest critics were anthropologists.  They  28 objected to his criteria for establishing  29 objective 'truth', 'distortions', 'original  30 versions' and argued that he had only a minimal  31 understanding of basic anthropological concepts  32 like kinship, symbolic processes and social  33 structure."  34  35 First of all, were you aware of that academic  36 criticism by anthropologists of Vansina's work?  37 A   I am very aware of how anthropologists approach  38 disagreeing with oral history as history.  I have had  39 discussions with people on it.  40 Q   But were you aware that the rationale for the  41 disagreement was a historian, if I can put it this  42 way, not understanding and disregarding concepts like  43 kinship, symbolic processes and social structure,  44 those are things that an anthropologist would pay  45 attention to and a historian wouldn't, and that was  46 one of the criticisms, did you understand that?  47 A   Yes, I understand that.  I think in my case the 16982  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on Qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 involvement I had in the culture and other, study of  2 other aspects of the culture, that I am not unaware of  3 kinship systems and how they relate.  In fact that  4 enabled me to make more sense out of the oral history.  5 Q   But going back to what you said earlier, you are not  6 an anthropologist?  7 A   Do you want me to stay say it again?  8 Q   Carrying on:  9  10 "Others argued that he erred in his archival  11 approach to oral history in his objective of  12 building up a corpus of 'documents' and that the  13 real methodological issues involved how to use  14 oral history.  15 Recent students of oral history like Basso and  16 Rosaldo argue that informants' statements about  17 themselves, their environment, their history have  18 to be taken seriously."  19  20  21 Just pausing there, have you read anything by  22 Basso?  23 A   No, I haven't.  24 Q   How about Rosaldo?  25 A   No.  26 Q   Completing this page:  27  28 "They propose to make theoretical contributions to  29 cultural ecology (Basso) and to anthropological  30 theory generally (Rosaldo) by demonstrating that  31 by how people think about their landscape and  32 history has a significant impact on how that they  33 interact with their environment they demonstrate  34 their positions by meticulous analysis of oral  35 tradition and pay particular attention to place  3 6 names."  37  38  39 Now, from your study, are there contributions to  40 cultural ecology or do you know?  41 A  Well, when this came to my attention, I have always  42 been looking out for somebody who is working along the  43 same lines as I have.  And when this came to my  44 attention I read this and that is not the thrust of  45 how -- much as how I agree with the statement that  46 they are -- the informant statements about themselves,  47 their environment and history have to be taken 16983  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on Qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 seriously, the focus that they were doing in analyzing  2 them was once again not the same as mine.  3 Q   Could you turn to page 3, there is a reference, and  4 this is in part three still, a reference to Beidelman,  5 entitled Myth, Tradition and Oral History, have you  6 read that?  7 A   No.  8 Q   Have you heard about it?  9 A   Yes, I looked this over when I received it.  10 Q   You will see that -- by the way, when was the first  11 time you read this annotated bibliography by Dr.  12 Cruikshank?  13 A   Several months ago.  14 Q   That was the first time?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Now, from Beidelman it says this:  17  18  19 "This paper discusses some of the difficulties  20 faced by historians who try to transform data  21 from oral history into academic history.  He  22 argues that their attempts to so overlook  23 theoretical works in both functionalism and  24 structuralism and often proceed without even a  25 rudimentary grasp of kinship, symbolism and cross  26 cultural notions of time and space.  27 Functionalists like Evans-Pritchard agree that  28 oral tradition contains truth but their truth is  29 sociological not historical."  30  31  32 Just pausing there, I take it you wouldn't agree  33 with that?  34 A   No.  35 MR. GRANT:  Well, there is a lot — my friend could break it  3 6 down.  37 MR. WILLMS:  I am breaking it down.  38 THE COURT:  Where are you inding this?  Is it the next  39 paragraph?  40 MR. WILLMS:  Page 3 and the description of Beidelman's work.  41 Q   Do you agree that the truth in oral tradition is  42 sociological and not historical?  43 A  Well, there is sociological information and you can  44 use the oral histories to do sociological studies, but  45 that is not how I use them, and I don't agree that  46 that is exclusive, that the sociological approach is  47 therefore not historical, that they are not useful as 16984  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on Qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 historical sources.  2 Q   Just to complete the sentence:  3  4  5 "For example, few myths justify the present  6 social order and sometimes distort the past to do  7 so."  8  9  10 Did you notice that in your review of oral  11 histories, that oral histories justify the present  12 social order and sometimes distort the past to do so?  13 A   No, I found that as I had a sense of their time depth  14 that in different time periods they focused on  15 different aspects of the social order.  16 Q   Completing what Dr. Cruikshank says here:  17  18  19 "To make matters even more complex, structuralists  20 have shown that myth often inverts the actual  21 social rules in an attempt to resolve  22 contradictions which cannot be resolved in the  23 social sphere.  Both of these theoretical  24 positions create serious problems for historians  25 trying to interpret traditions as accurate  26 accounts of past events."  27  28  29 Now, were you aware that historians or  30 anthropologists viewed difficulty in using oral  31 history and interpreting it as accurate accounts of  32 past events?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And you know that not only do historians like Vansina  35 see difficulties with using oral accounts as history,  36 but also anthropologists, they both do, don't they?  37 A   I think they suffer from a limited approach.  38 Q   You're not a historian, are you?  39 A   No, I wasn't trained formally in historical work.  40 Q   Just carrying on to page five of part three, there is  41 a discussion of Vansina, the reference that I  42 suggested to you before on oral traditions, a Study in  43 Historical Methodology.  Dr. Cruikshank says in the  44 very first sentence:  45  46  47 "This book is wildly regarded as a fundamental 16985  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on Qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 methodological treatise on the study of oral  2 traditions as history."  3  4  5 Do you agree with that?  6 A   Can I have that page again, please?  7 Q   It's page five, two pages along in part three.  8 A   Okay.  9 Q   I am sorry, the first sentence is:  10  11  12 "This book is widely regarded as the fundamental  13 methodological treatise on the study of oral  14 traditions as history."  15  16  17  18 Do you agree with that?  19 A   To my knowledge there is nothing else that has been  20 published that deals with it in that amount of depth.  21 Q   When did you first read Vansina?  22 A   '86-'87, somewhere in there.  23 Q   Was it before or after you wrote your report?  24 A   It was during.  25 Q   While you were writing it?  26 A   I had already gotten well into my own methodology by  27 that time.  28 Q   Yes.  Just if you could put that to one side for a  29 moment, but don't put it away, I wonder if Exhibit 88?  30 could be put.  31 THE COURT:  What is that, please?  32 MR. WILLMS:  It's in the — Dr. Daly's blue book, if I can call  33 it that.  It was put in by the plaintiffs, my lord,  34 and it's an extract from Trigger, the doctor.  35 THE COURT:  8 8 6?  36 MR. WILLMS:  888, my lord.  It's an extract from Natives and  37 Newcomers, Canada's Heroic Age Reconsidered, Dr.  38 Trigger and it was referred to and discussed by Dr.  39 Daly.  40 Q   Have you read this work before?  41 A   No, I am not familiar with this.  42 Q   Could you turn to page 167.  On the right-hand side,  43 that first full paragraph, Dr. Trigger says:  44  45  46 "The use of oral traditions to understand  47 historical events requires a detailed 16986  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on Qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 understanding of their derivation and a critical  2 comparison of alternative versions of the same  3 story."  4  5 Then he cites Vansina and carries on:  6  7 "While oral traditions may provide a valuable  8 record of former beliefs and values, caution is  9 needed in interpreting that sort of information  10 historically."  11  12  13 You agree with that, don't you, you need a great  14 deal of caution to interpret this?  15 A   Is he referring there that it's historical information  16 or that the oral histories are historical and the  17 information coming out of them is about something else  18 besides historical events?  I am not sure how he means  19 the word historical there.  But I certainly agree that  20 caution is needed in interpreting them in what I do  21 and in what other people do with them.  22 Q   He carries on and says:  23  24 "Anthropological research in North America and  25 elsewhere indicates that tribal societies  26 generally have little interest in conserving an  27 accurate knowledge of the past over long periods  28 every time for its own sake.  What passes as  29 historical traditions are often mythical  30 charters, explaining and validating the current  31 social relations and these change as social  32 relations change."  33  34 Just pausing there, do you accept that as a general  35 proposition?  36 A  Well, I am not sure that I know what he means by  37 tribal societies.  I mean, I know what a tribal  38 society is but I don't know if I would agree with him  39 in characterizing some of those societies as tribal  40 societies.  I know that there are other aboriginal  41 societies that have oral histories that they do not  42 put forth as history.  There are other oral  43 traditions, oral narratives that are passed on and  44 that are important to aboriginal societies that are  45 not historical accounts and they don't claim that they  46 are.  And I haven't done a survey of all of the so-  47 called tribal societies so I don't know how many of 16987  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on Qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 them have historical accounts.  But I feel that from  2 what I have looked at, that the north coast historical  3 accounts are the wealth and richness of what has been  4 collected on them is unique probably anywhere.  5 Q   And that's -- what have you read, what oral traditions  6 have you read from Ontario from the Iroquois or the  7 Huron?  8 A   Over the years I have been interested in mythology  9 generally and I have read oral traditions from our own  10 culture, for example.  11 Q   Just going to the Iroquois and Huron, which is Dr.  12 Trigger's narrow focus here, what oral traditions have  13 you reviewed from the Iroquois or Huron or any eastern  14 Canadian Indians?  15 A   I am familiar with what are called their folk tails,  16 blue scap tails.  17 Q   For example?  18 A   Do you want me to tell you one?  19 Q   No, I would like you to tell me what you have read and  20 where we can find it?  21 A   I haven't done a study of the Huron or Iroquois but  22 they are published in a lot of different anthologies  23 of narratives that I have collected over the years,  24 they are usually a compilation, you usually say, oh,  25 yes, this is a trickster figure of oral history and  26 because that's not my particular focus I don't look at  27 in this in great detail.  But I have always been  28 looking in every publication I have seen for accounts  29 that are similar to north coast historical accounts.  30 Q   And that's because when you started this process you  31 saw that the north coast was unique?  32 A   I think the wealth of collected information is unique.  33 I am not saying they are the only people in the world  34 that have historical oral histories, oral traditions.  35 Q   Down a little lower Dr. Trigger sets out one of his  36 reasons for saying that there isn't much reason to  37 preserve history, he says this, this is the last  38 paragraph:  39  40  41 "The small populations of tribal societies and  42 their general lack of concern with the  43 inheritance of private property tend not to  44 produce the systematic variations in oral  45 traditions that are useful for evaluating their  46 historical authenticity."  47 16988  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on Qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 Just pausing there, I take it that in respect of  2 the Gitksan you would make a distinction there becaue  3 ever since you have been there you have noted a real  4 interest in the inheritance of private property,  5 that's a distinction you have noted?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Carrying on:  8  9 "The recording of oral tradition as well may be  10 suspect.  The few committed to writing in eastern  11 Canada prior to the late 19th century were done  12 in extremely cursory fashion and from poorly  13 identified sources.  At least some of these oral  14 traditions appeared to be heavily influenced by  15 white historical narratives, missionary  16 propaganda and even anthropological publications.  17 They also frequently reflect knowledge of periods  18 later than those to which they are alleged to  19 refer."  20  21  22 Just pausing there, in respect of the oral  23 traditions that you reviewed, you're satisfied, I take  24 it, about Barbeau and Beynon's recordings as being not  25 suspect, identified sources and not heavily  26 influenced, is that fair?  27 A   Yes, I think even in the north coast body of oral  28 literature they stand out as such.  Boas's transcriber  29 of oral histories, his name was Tate, he felt that he  30 had to clean them up, he had to take out references  31 that would offend white people and make them  32 acceptable to Christian thinking and I don't use those  33 in the same way as I use the Barbeau-Beynon Adaawk.  34 Q   Just finishing this page, Dr. Trigger concludes:  35  36  37 "In general, some kind of independent verification  38 is required before such traditions can be  39 accepted as accurate historical accounts."  40  41  42 You accept that, don't you?  43 A   Not entirely, no.  44 Q   So it's your view that even in the absence of  45 independent verification, that you can say that  46 traditions can be accepted as accurate historical  47 accounts? 16989  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on Qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 A   I think there are internal, there are ways of  2 analyzing them internally.  If you have a version  3 collected in 1898, another one collected in 1915,  4 another one collected in 1970, in different parts of  5 the north coast area, and if they all have the  6 essential elements, you have to begin to assess them  7 as something other than figments of people's  8 imagination.  9 Q   So if they are all this century, if you have got a  10 consistent pattern this century, you say that that's  11 your independent verification?  12 A   They have to -- one of the things that started  13 convincing me, and this has started convincing me that  14 these could be used in a meaningful way and not be  15 subject to this kind of criticism was the fact that  16 the informants obviously didn't know each other and  17 probably their ancestors, their immediate ancestors,  18 didn't know each other.  So the fact that a tradition  19 can be passed on in different locations over a long  20 period of time accurately, indicates its value to the  21 people and indicates that there are methods there of  22 transmitting it where it doesn't end up, as he says  23 here, basically changed around to suit people's  24 purposes.  25 Q   And this is an analysis of them after they have been  26 committed to writing in this century, basically  27 starting with Barbeau?  28 A   Yes, there was nothing -- there was some in the very  29 late 1800s.  30 Q   Another method of independent verification, and it's a  31 method that you used is, for example, the volcanic  32 eruption on the Nass, when assessing when the Wolf  33 Clan fugitives came down the Stikine, that's another  34 method of independent verification, isn't it?  35 A   I don't connect those two events but I use the  36 volcano -- I use the oral histories in and of  37 themselves to put them in chronological order.  I use  38 independent sources to give clues to the dating.  39 Q   But isn't it the case that in your report, except for  40 the very recent past, there is very little independent  41 datign, that is, dating from scientific evidence, of  42 the oral histories that you purport to chronologize?  43 A  Well, it didn't —  44 MR. GRANT:  Just one moment.  My lord, I am just questioning  45 here, I was cautious in terms of not going into the  46 report.  I just wonder if my friend is now moving  47 beyond the issue of qualifications into the question 16990  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on Qualifications  by Mr. Willms  of the weight to be given to the opinions of the  witness, and I object.  THE COURT:  I am not sure, Mr. Grant, that I can agree with you.  You can't go into the report because that's what you  are qualifying the witness to give.  But what Mr.  Willms is doing is attempting to set up the  independent verification if necessary and, therefore,  if there isn't -- if the first premise is correct and  there isn't any, then it may be that the report is not  admissible.  MR. GRANT:  That may go to the admissibility of the report but  does it go to the qualifications of the witness?  That's what I am -- because I -- underlying my  objection is that I think my friend is, well, he is  painting the brush in his manner.  THE COURT:  Well, that's what he is expected to do.  I don't  think it's a problem, Mr. Grant, I think you can reexamine if you have to.  But I think this is a  legitimate way of testing whether this is a discipline  upon which opinion evidence can be given.  I will allow the cross-examination.  MR. WILLMS:  Q   I will just ask again:  On a review of your report,  you will agree that except for the recent, the  relatively recent past, there is very little  independent dating, and by that I mean, dating from  scientific evidence, of the oral histories that you  have used?  A   That was not considered to be the focus of my report,  information that would independently corroborate this  could come from another expert but I have familiarized  myself with the opinions of other experts and I feel  that archeological information, for example, does  corroborate this.  Q   That's your feeling, but I am talking about what you  actually wrote in your report and not your feeling.  What you wrote in your report does not contain  independent verification from scientific evidence for  your dating, except for the relatively recent past?  A   I could have included it in the report if it had been  asked.  But it isn't there, is it?  Well, is it there or not?  Q  A  Q  No.  Just returning to the -- Dr. Cruikshank's annotated  bibliography, we were on page five where Vansina was  being discussed -- by the way, how would you compare  your methodology in acquiring and assessing oral 16991  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on Qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 history to Vansina's methodology, or do you know what  2 Vansina's methodology was?  3 A  My methodology is extremely complex and I am at a  4 disadvantage if you ask me individual aspects of it.  5 I don't think Vansina got into the same kind of  6 analysis because I don't think he had the same kind of  7 sources.  However, there are things that he said that  8 I agree with.  For example, the ones that you quote,  9 that you have to look at the informant, you have to  10 look at the different versions and you have to  11 consider it as a historical source but not as a  12 historical document in the sense that we westerners  13 consider documents.  In other words, having been  14 written down at the time by a person involved in this  15 situation.  16 Q   Dr. Cruikshank concludes her annotation on this work  17 at page six at the top where she says:  18  19  20 "Nevertheless, Vansina's work is still the  21 standard work for students of oral history 20  22 years after it was written.  If anthropologists  23 continue to write critiques of his methodology,  24 it is significant that they still use this volume  25 as their point of reference."  26  27  28 Now you haven't referred to Vansina in your report  29 at all, have you?  30 A   No, I was not what my report is about.  31 MR. WILLMS:  Yes, Exhibit 902, the gray — could Exhibit 902 —  32 I am finished now, Ms. Marsden, with 1051-2.  33 Q   Perhaps before I leave it, are there any other areas  34 in the annotated bibliography, other than oral  35 history, the section that I referred you to, chapter  36 three, is there any other areas in there which you  37 would you say falls within the area of your study?  38 THE COURT:  That's a pretty tall order, isn't it?  39 MR. WILLMS:  No, my lord, there is a little -- there are topics  40 running from page two to six, there is 13 topics  41 there.  42 THE COURT:  I know, but the witness hasn't seen this before, she  43 has seen it before but didn't know it was coming here.  44 MR. WILLMS:  I thought she might.  It is an annotated  45 bibliography on the area. Maybe she didn't.  46 THE COURT:  If she she can answer the question --  47 MR. WILLMS: 16992  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on Qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 Q   Well, if you can answer it, are there any other areas  2 in there that --  3 A   I felt comfortable with my methodology when I was  4 doing it.  I did not have the time to do a study on  5 other people's opinions on oral history while I was  6 doing this and I made sure that I had -- I asked as  7 many people as possible whenever there were  8 anthropologists or linguists coming through the area  9 if there is anything on this in print and I saw  10 Vansina as a result of that, I didn't see this but  11 when I did see it I looked through it and the people  12 working on oral histories are not working on them in  13 the same way that I am, except for Vansina.  And he  14 hasn't done it in the same way.  15 Q   Well, let's perhaps go to Exhibit 902-7.  The seventh  16 tab.  It's a gray book.  It was marked in the cross-  17 examination of Dr. Daly, my lord.  And it is -- it's  18 an extract from a book called Ethnohistory in  19 Southwestern Alaska and the extract is written by  20 Catharine McClellan, it's entitled Indian Stories  21 About the First Whites in Northwestern America.  Are  22 you aware of Catharine McClellan?  23 A   I think, if she is the one who has just published  24 something on northern people, I think she has done a  25 very good job of it.  26 Q   She has collected stories and histories from  27 informants in Northwestern America, do you know that?  28 A   No, I am just familiar with her work to the north of  29 us.  30 Q   Have you -- and this is just an extract, this exhibit,  31 but have you read anything written by McClellan?  32 A   That book that I am telling you about.  We have it in  33 the museum.  I can't remember the title of it.  34 Q   Now, at page 115 of the extract, McClellan says:  35  36  37 "We are all familiar with attempts to generalize  38 about categories Greece of oral literature.  39 Bascom, for example, has suggested that two major  40 kinds of prose narrative are myths, which focus  41 on the activities of nonhuman beings in an  42 earlier or other world, and legends, which tell  43 of recent human exploits in a world like that of  44 today.  Both kinds of narrative are thought to be  45 true, unlike the third category:  Folktales,  46 which are pure fiction deliberately devised for  47 entertainment." 16993  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on Qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 Just pausing there, are you aware, and don't limit  2 yourself to the Barbeau writings, but are you aware of  3 Gitksan folktales?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Are you aware of Gitksan narratives focusing on the  6 activities of nonhuman beings in an earlier or other  7 world?  8 A  Well, maybe I should go back -- I am is not not sure,  9 the us of folktale, folklore, legend, myth, there is  10 no strict definition that everybody agrees with when  11 they are saying that.  I am familiar with oral  12 traditions among the Gitksan that are not considered  13 to be historical accounts and if you classify them as  14 folktales or as events that take place in nonhuman  15 beings in an earlier or other world -- nonhuman  16 beings, I suppose they could be characterized as that.  17 If they mean supernatural creatures by nonhman beings.  18 Q   You said you reviewed some of de Laguna's work on the  19 plaintiff histories?  20 A   Yes, she tried to correlate the archeological account,  21 the archeological work with oral accounts.  She didn't  22 pursue it though.  She did that when she was first  23 starting.  24 Q   McClellan in the next paragraph says:  25  26  27 "As it happens, all the Tlingit and Athabascans  28 beings considered distinguish two main classes of  29 story which seem to correspond fairly well with  30 Bascom's 'myth' and 'legend'.  The first class is  31 designated by native terms which are often  32 translated as 'long ago stories' or occasionally  33 as 'fairy stories'.  The chief actors are usually  34 animal-named beings with superhuman powers who  35 nevertheless look and behave much of the time  36 like human beings and who only rarely assume  37 animal guise."  38  39  40 Just pausing there, are any of the Barbeau  41 collection, do any of them fit into that category, any  42 of the ones you relied on?  43 A  Well, this is yet another way of using terms to  44 classify something that this person feels is a good  45 summary of what those stories are about.  If I were to  46 look at them, at those narratives, I would have to  47 decide for myself.  I think there are -- animal-named 16994  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on Qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 beings with super human powers who nevertheless look  2 and behave much like --  3 Q   Barbeau recorded some --  4 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  I think the witness is still  5 thinking.  6 MR. WILLMS:  I am just trying to help her.  7 A  Maybe if you would like to go on.  8 Q   Well, aren't you aware of Barbeau-recorded oral  9 histories which involved supernatural beings who at  10 times are in human form and at times are in  11 supernatural form?  12 A  Well, they have used the term animal-named beings and  13 I am trying to go over what I think you're getting at.  14 But as far as I know when a being, a supernatural  15 being is named it's not usually an animal name, even  16 if it takes an animal form.  For example, the  17 supernatural beaver isn't given the animal name,  18 Indian name Timilet it's given the name Ts'a.  So it's  19 identified as a supernatural being. Here it's an  2 0 animal-named and that's what I was trying to think  21 about.  Have I seen a supernatural being with strictly  22 an animal name, and I can't recall one that I have.  23 However, I am aware that there are supernatural  24 elements in the oral histories reported by Barbeau, if  25 that's what you are asking.  26 Q   And some of those oral histories you have relied upon  27 in your report?  28 A   Yes, there are supernatural elements in some of them.  29 Q   Now, over to the next page of McClellan she describes  30 a second class and this is in that first paragraph,  31 she says, full paragraph:  32  33 "The second class of prose narratives is  34 designated by terms which the Indians usually  35 render in English  as 'histories' or 'true  36 stories', although 'long ago stories' are, of  37 course, thought to be equally true.  These tales  38 tell what has happened to the narrator himself,  39 to his contemporaries or his immediate  40 ancestors -- for example, about a shaman's  41 acquisition of power or the feuding between the  42 Inland Tlingit and the Tahltan.  It is in this  43 category that the Indians usually put their  44 stories about the first whites, if they classify  45 such a story at all.  In a general way, all such  46 stories tell of the ordinary world of today or  47 the not-too-distant past." 16995  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on Qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1  2 First of all, you are aware of stories recorded by  3 Barbeau and Beynon where the informant is part of the  4 story?  5 A   The informant is part of the story?  6 Q   Such as some of the wars between Kitwancool and  7 Tsetsaut, between Kisgegas and Tahltan, where the  8 informant was there, he was five, he was six, there  9 are histories --  10 A   There are, like Peter Williams, for example, but that  11 wasn't Peter Williams, that was his father, I think.  12 It's usually the next generation up but I am sure  13 there are one or two up and I seem to recall one among  14 the Kispiox, he was the at peace ceremony, he wasn't  15 involved in the war itself when he was a boy.  But  16 it's usually the next generation up, at least.  17 Q   And there are some of those in the Barbeau recordings?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   McClellan continues:  20  21 "Yet these categories are loose ones at best, and  22 neither our own characterization of their nature  23 nor that of the Indians should lull us into  24 thinking that the scheme is absolutely rigorous.  25 Thus they may explain that 'long ago stories' are  26 distinguished from histories, chiefly by  27 chronological criteria -- because they happened  28 in 'myth-time' but myth-time and mythlike events  29 can nevertheless form an important parts of  30 'histories.'  31  32  33 Just pausing there, mythlike events form important  34 parts of the Barbeau recorded and the Beynon recorded  35 histories, correct?  36 A   I am not sure how you're defining myth or how this  37 person is defining myth.  There are different meanings  38 to the word myth.  39 Q   Do you have a definition for myth?  40 A   I use the definition that they are a tradition, an  41 oral tradition, that record an event that is usually  42 historical.  And I don't use the definition that they  43 are, in the most pejorative sense of the term, that  44 they are figments of imagination, which is one of the  45 definitions of myth that we use in everyday language.  46 I know that people talk about mythtime and I don't see  47 these falling into those categories of mythtime and 16996  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on Qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 real time as some people talk about other things and I  2 think that's what she is doing here.  3 Q   She relates at the bottom of the page and the top of  4 the next one, a Tlingit story about the 1898 Gold  5 Rush, which tells how the white prospector and his  6 Tagish brother-in-law, Skookum Jim, found gold.   Have  7 you read about that one or heard of that story?  8 A   No.  9 Q   Carrying on:  10  11  12 "But they also explain how Jim met with Wealth  13 Woman, a figure from a 'long ago story' and  14 describe Jim's visits to the house of the Master  15 of the Frogs where these creatures appeared and  16 acted as humans.  Jim's visit lasted for four  17 months, although it seemed to him that only four  18 days had passed."  19  20 Now there are Barbeau recorded histories, Barbeau  21 and Beynon recorded histories, where human beings  22 change into other shapes, like frogs, right?  23 A   Yes.  That's what I call the supernatural elements.  24 Q   And just in the middle of the next paragraph,  25 McClellan discusses what she means by myth.  She says:  26  27  28 "I believe that the mythlike quality of Wealth  29 Woman and the Frog prince remain constant both in  30 Tagish 'long ago stories' and the Tagish  31 'history.'  In any case, it does not take a very  32 sharp ethnohistorian to realize that neither a  33 woman who defecates golden balls nor a Frog  34 prince are historical figures in our sense of the  35 word, and he soon becomes aware that myth-time  36 events are not timporally stable phenomena, no  37 matter what the leterary classification may  3 8 imply."  39  40 Is that something that concerned you when you were  41 reviewing oral histories that contained a Frog in the  42 history, that they are not historical figures in our  43 sense of the word, for example?  44 A   Part of my analysis dealt with the supernatural  45 elements, yes.  46 MR. WILLMS:  This might be a good time to take a break, my lord.  47 THE COURT:  All right. 16997  S. M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on Qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR SHORT RECESS)  2  3  4  5  6 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  7 a true and accurate transcript of the  8 proceedings herein to the best of my  9 skill and ability.  10  11  12  13  14  15 Wilf Roy  16 Official Reporter  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 16998  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT)  2 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Willms?  4 MR. WILLMS:  5 Q   Could you please turn back to Tab 7 in Exhibit 902,  6 Ms. Marsden, and just complete the McClellan  7 discussion of ethnohistory.  At the bottom of page 117  8 McClellan, after discussing long ago stories, starts  9 the paragraph at the very bottom over on to the next  10 page:  11  12 "Perhaps it is not surprising that the  13 Indians themselves are sometimes unsure as  14 to how to classify their stories.  For  15 example, the Tlingit apparently run into  16 this problem with their sib", s-i-b,  17 "traditions, just because some of them  18 incorporate so much mythlike action, yet  19 relate to persons who are presumed to be  20 relatively recent sib ancestors.  Different  21 narrators may classify the same story in  22 different ways."  23  24 And then she cites De Laguna.  And I think De Laguna  25 is someone that you've read.  You've read some of De  26 Laguna's work?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   And are you familiar with that problem in Tlingit  29 stories?  30 A   I'm not familiar with De Laguna's problem with  31 classifying the same story in a different way, in  32 different ways.  33 Q   Was that a problem --  34 A   I don't know what she's referring to there.  Oh, am I  35 familiar with the problem in my work?  36 Q   No, no.  First of all, De Laguna, and I think you said  37 you weren't?  38 A   No.  I don't know what this person McClellan is  39 referring to here.  4 0 Q   And how about in your own work?  Did you have that  41 problem?  42 A  Well, the Gitksan are pretty clear what an adaawk is.  43 It's not a problem for them.  And if it's an adaawk,  44 then I deal with it as such if they've stated it is.  45 Q   Then that's good enough for you?  46 A   It's their definition, yes.  47 Q   All right.  Now, McClellan carries on and says this at 16999  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 the conclusion of that paragraph:  2  3 "While their decision certainly involve more  4 than temporal considerations, the point for  5 us is that the ethnohistorian must not  6 expect the Indians to handle time in the  7 same way that historians do."  8  9 You'll accept that, won't you?  10 A  Are they talking about sort of Indians in their  11 everyday life?  And what are they talking about in  12 terms of -- it's just such a broad statement.  I  13 really -- I don't really want to agree with it.  14 Q   Well, I take what McClellan is talking about is in  15 looking at oral histories -- not in everyday life, but  16 in looking at oral histories, that McClellan is  17 warning that ethnohistorians must not expect the  18 Indians to handle time in the same way that historians  19 do?  20 A   They didn't have an A.D./ B.C. dating system.  They  21 didn't use numbers to reflect time.  They had other  22 ways of reflecting time, not in the same -- I don't  23 mean refined.  They had a strict sense of chronology  24 and they also had a sense of large time periods before  25 major events, after major events.  They had -- they --  26 incorporated in the telling of the adaawk is a sense  27 of time.  It's not measured the way we measure it.  28 Q   There's no measured time in the adaawks unless it's an  29 adaawk by someone who is part of the story who can say  30 this happened and then three years later something  31 else happened, and other than that, there's no  32 measured time in histories?  33 A   Not in the way we measure time, no.  34 Q   But isn't it the case that in your report you have  35 purported to review oral histories to give a  36 10,000-year history of the Gitksan?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Yes.  My lord, just for convenience I have the first  39 couple of pages of the report.  40 And what I'm handing you, Ms. Marsden, is the  41 preface from your report, which runs from pages 1 to 7  42 and then the table of contents and then the tenth  43 page.  And pages 1 to 7 of this sets out your approach  44 in doing your research, doesn't it?  45 A   It's a very cursory overview of methodology, yes.  46 Q   So that on page 1 at the beginning, you say:  47 17000  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 "The purpose of this report is to give an  2 overview of the history of the Gitksan  3 people that will provide a context for the  4 personal and group histories they tell in  5 support of their assertion of ownership and  6 jurisdiction over their lands."  7  8 And you kept that purpose in mind throughout your  9 report, correct?  10 A   I don't know if it's in this section or -- yes.  I go  11 on to say that if the Gitksan person hears an adaawk,  12 they place it in a context of all the other adaawk  13 that they've heard and are required to be exposed to  14 as part of the system and that we as non --  15 non-Gitksan don't have that context and therefore it's  16 very difficult for us to see them in their true light.  17 And when I wrote this report, I was trying to give  18 that broad context that they would have in their heads  19 from attending feasts and hearing adaawk and being  20 raised with them so that we could better understand  21 what they were saying.  22 Q   If you could just turn to page 7 where you end your  23 preface, you say:  24  25 "Some of the concepts and beliefs that are  26 fundamental to Gitksan culture and therefore  27 to an understanding of the ada'ox are  28 foreign to non-Indians.  Therefore I have  29 preceded this historical overview with a  30 cultural overview.  This cultural overview  31 is continued in the conclusion where it  32 summarizes the socio-political relationships  33 that come to light in the historical  34 overview and where it provides a context for  35 contemporary aspects of Gitksan society."  36  37 Now, in fact, Ms. Marsden, the cultural overview is  38 essential to your approach to the historical overview,  39 isn't it?  40 A   I'm not sure I understand your question.  41 Q   Well, without the cultural context and the cultural  42 overview that you've done, the historical overview  43 would be quite different?  44 A   You mean could -- could a person read simply  45 everything else in the report besides the introduction  46 and the conclusion and not make any sense of it?  Is  47 that what you mean? 17001  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 Q   No, no.  What I mean is had you not used the cultural  2 overview in reviewing the historical context, it would  3 have been a quite different report?  4 A   Before I even started working with the adaawk, I  5 was -- they were explained to me in terms of being  6 historical traditions and in terms of being important  7 aspects of what a chief passes on to his heirs and  8 important aspects of what constitutes their culture  9 and that was why I wrote the overview, to place the  10 adaawk in that context.  They're not simply bedtime  11 stories, for example.  They're in the possession of  12 the chief.  It's his responsibility to pass them on,  13 that sort of thing.  And I -- and they're interrelated  14 with the totem poles and the crests and the limx'ooy  15 and the other things the chief considers to be so  16 important and, therefore, I wrote that overview to  17 explain where adaawk fit.  18 Q   Maybe if I put it this way:  The cultural overview  19 deals with some of the concepts and beliefs that are  20 fundamental to Gitksan culture?  21 A   Those ones I was just talking about, yes.  22 Q   Correct.  All right.  And that cultural overview is  23 fundamental to an understanding of the adaawk; is that  24 correct?  25 A   To an understanding.  I think if you took an isolated  26 adaawk, say one of the ones where they describe their  27 first encounter with a white person, something we're  28 familiar with, we know where the first white people  2 9 landed.  We could read that.  We wouldn't need a  30 cultural overview.  But to do the kind of work that I  31 did, I think you have to have an understanding of the  32 culture, certainly those key aspects that are involved  33 with adaawk.  34 Q   All right.  Now, just turning to pages 8 and 9 where  35 you set out your table of contents, you -- in your  36 opinion report you discuss law, correct?  37 A   The foundation of law, yes.  38 Q   You also discuss cultural and socio-political  39 influences?  40 A   Inasmuch as they're related to the adaawk, yes.  41 Q   You discuss population shifts and migration?  42 A   Once again inasmuch as they're described in the  43 adaawk.  44 Q   You discuss rise of trade?  45 A   Yes.  That also is discussed in the adaawk.  4 6 Q   And wars and slave raids?  47 A   Yes. 17002  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 Q   But you are not a political scientist?  2 A   No.  3 Q   Or a historical geographer?  4 A   In working with the adaawk, I've had to become very  5 immersed in the geography.  6 Q   Well, let's say in 1984 before you embarked on this,  7 would you call yourself a historical geographer?  8 A   There is no historical geographer that has the same  9 mastery of place names in the north coast that I do.  10 Q   You're not an economist?  11 A   No.  12 Q   Do you understand that it is the hereditary chiefs who  13 have the greatest knowledge about matters of Gitksan  14 customs, politics and law?  15 A   Yes.  In terms of their own culture, yes.  16 Q   And do you understand that it's the Gitksan hereditary  17 chiefs who have the greatest knowledge of the oral  18 histories of their houses?  19 A   Of their houses, yes.  20 Q   Do you understand that it is the Gitksan hereditary  21 chiefs who have the greatest knowledge about their  22 territories or where they say their territories extend  23 to?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And you know that his lordship has heard evidence of  26 Gitksan law, trade politics and territories from the  27 hereditary chiefs?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   You also know that his lordship has heard  30 anthropological evidence from Dr. Daly, Dr. Mills, Dr.  31 Lane, archaeological from Ms. Albright, linguistic  32 from Dr. Kari, and historical geographical from Dr.  33 Ray and Dr. Galois?  You acknowledge that each of  34 those people in their fields is more knowledgeable  35 than you in that field?  36 A   In their own fields?  37 Q   Yes.  38 A   Not necessarily on the content of my report, no.  I  39 don't think they've dealt with the same subject areas  40 in all cases.  41 Q   But certainly in matters of anthropology you defer to  42 Dr. Daly and Dr. Mills and Dr. Lane?  43 A   Not on the subject of adaawk.  I think they might --  44 Q   Well, just focus on anthropology.  You'd defer to  45 them, wouldn't you?  46 A   I haven't had the need to find out anthropological --  47 I haven't had the need to ask them about 17003  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 anthropological things.  2 Q   Well, don't you rely on anthropology in your report?  3 You've got a long bibliography.  There are  4 anthropologists in that bibliography, aren't there?  5 A   I don't know.  I'd have to look.  It wasn't a main  6 source of information.  I mean, I do know -- if you  7 consider an archaelogist and a linguist as a branch of  8 anthropology, yes, I used anthropological sources.  If  9 you're talking about structuralist's theory or  10 positivist's theory or various other theories that  11 anthropologists are involved in, no.  I did not refer  12 to them for help in terms of formulating my opinion.  13 Q   Well, you've referred to Drucker, for example, as an  14 anthropologist?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Wilson Duff?  17 A  Wilson Duff's work that I was using was his  18 compilation of the basic research materials.  19 Q   Irving Goldman?  20 A   Yes.  I read that.  I didn't use it in any extensive  21 manner.  22 Q   In your report -- in your reference list there you  23 refer to archaeology and I think you've referred to  24 Dr. MacDonald, who you've corresponded with?  25 A   I corresponded with Dr. MacDonald with these basic  26 sources of information.  I also used MacDonald because  27 he has done archaeological work and archaeological  28 work can be used to tie in with the oral histories and  2 9 they themselves have used them to do so.  And  30 archaeologists -- archaeological publications and  31 opinions from archaeologists are useful to me in what  32 I do, but I don't -- I don't use it as a -- I don't  33 use it as a source of the opinions.  I use it, as you  34 were pointing out earlier, as an independent  35 corroboration, a tie-in to help date, for example, the  36 dispersal from Temlaham, to help date that.  I used  37 the information on the volcano by the geologists to  38 help date the volcano event and then to place other  39 events prior to that, but I don't use the theories.  40 Q   Also some linguistic.  You referred to Dr. Rigsby?  41 A   I spent time trying to -- I spent time looking at  42 linguistic conclusions about the Gitksan to see if  43 there would be -- if they could be used as an  44 independent parallel way of dovetailing information  45 to -- in terms of migrations and the linguistic theory  46 just isn't that refined that they -- that they can  47 talk about time depths and numerous migrations into an 17004  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 area as a result of their -- their linguistic studies.  2 MR. WILLMS:  But you'll agree with me that because his lordship  3 has heard the evidence of the archaeologists, the  4 linguists, the anthropologists and the historical  5 geographers, that he's in a better position than you  6 in assessing how that evidence correlates?  7 MR. GRANT:  My lord, is that not the question — is that a fair  8 question to put to this witness who hasn't been  9 present for all of this evidence of these other people  10 who have taken the last several months, different ones  11 of them, and that this witness, how can she say the  12 position that you're in and what relevance is it for  13 her opinion as to the position that you're in?  14 THE COURT:  I think there's something in that, isn't there?  15 MR. WILLMS:  Well, my lord, maybe I'll just ask the next  16 question, because I think the next question is a  17 relevant question.  18 And you'll agree with me, won't you, Ms. Marsden,  19 that in correlating the evidence of the hereditary  20 chiefs with the archaeological, linguistic  21 anthropological and historical geographical evidence,  22 that his lordship is in a better position than you are  23 in correlating that evidence?  24 MR. GRANT:  It's the same -- the same objection, my lord.  25 THE COURT:  I don't think she can say who's in the best  26 position, Mr. Willms.  27 MR. WILLMS:  28 Q   Well, I'm trying to find out what she can do to assist  29 your lordship, my lord.  I mean, she hasn't heard this  30 evidence.  I don't know what she can do to help you.  31 I just thought if she knew something else that she  32 could help you with, she'd be able to tell me, but if  33 my friend objects, I'll carry one.  34 One thing that's clear is that the bulk of your  35 knowledge respecting oral histories has been gleened  36 since 1984?  37 A   No.  38 Q   No.  You read Barbeau extensively before 1984?  39 A   Not these, but his published versions and his -- his  40 summaries in totem poles of the Gitksan, plus I was  41 hearing them all the time from the people themselves.  42 Q   Well, what the people say is not -- I don't recall,  43 but I don't think -- I think you cite Barbeau and  44 Duff, but you don't cite an individual who told you  45 something as often in your report.  I mean, aren't you  46 primarily relying on what people -- what Barbeau has  47 said or are you also relying on what people told you 17005  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 while you were walking around up in Hazelton?  I --  2 sorry.  I don't know.  3 A   The implication in that question is it was a casual  4 kind of chatter in the street and that's not the form  5 that I received it in.  6 Q   Well, let me put it this way:  Do you have any notes  7 of conversations that you had with individuals that  8 formed part of the basis of your report?  9 A   No.  10 Q   No.  So your report is based on in terms of something  11 that is written down, Barbeau, Duff, that kind of oral  12 history, correct?  13 A   I focused on printed sources because it -- it's --  14 it's there in front of you as opposed to something  15 that's in my head that somebody told me.  16 Q   Well, are you saying that some of your report is based  17 on what's in your head from what somebody told you?  18 A   Of course.  It's based on my experience among the  19 Gitksan.  It's based on -- on explanations of how  20 things work.  It's based on my -- my numerous  21 occasions to be involved in feasts.  22 Q   Are you fluent in Gitksan?  23 A   No.  24 Q   No?  So when you were attending feasts, you did not  25 understand what was going on if it was going on in  26 Gitksan unless somebody translated it for you?  27 A   That's right.  And I sat with people in my house and  28 they did translate it for me.  2 9 Q   But you didn't make any notes?  30 A   No.  They don't appreciate that.  31 Q   Now, just referring to Barbeau, you've explained how  32 you put Part 2 of Barbeau -- you relied on Part 2 of  33 the Barbeau narratives, that is the collection of the  34 narratives themselves, rather than Part 1?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   All right.  Did you read Part 1?  37 A   I -- yes.  I read it over.  38 Q   All right.  Did you know that what Barbeau was doing  39 in Part 1, of a number of them, was attempting to  40 construct a chronology of the history?  41 A   Yes.  I was very much aware of that.  42 Q   And, now, did you keep that in the back of your mind  43 while you were writing your report or did you ignore  44 it?  45 A  Well, I realized fairly early along that his -- his  46 published sources and his -- the version that he was  47 planning to publish were -- involved changes to the 17006  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 original that I wasn't comfortable with and that --  2 that appeared to perhaps add or take away from the  3 original and I preferred to use the original.  4 Q   I'll come back to that in a minute, but a moment ago I  5 asked you about making notes and I'd just like to  6 refer you again to the transcript of your evidence at  7 the Art Matthews trial November 4th, 1985, page 32.  8 And if you go down to line 16:  9  10 Q   "Can you estimate approximately how many  11 of those, that is feasts, you have  12 attended?  If it's hard over the last  13 several years, even if you could say  14 over the last year or two years, if that  15 would be easier?  16 A  Well, a conservative estimate would be  17 30.  18 Q   Have you observed the passing of names  19 to different people at these feasts?  2 0 A   Yes, I have.  21 Q   And as part of your own interest and  22 also your research, have you recorded  23 the passage of those names at the  24 feasts you have attended?  25 A   I don't actually do it at the feasts  26 because it's not considered polite, but  27 I have made note of it, made mental note  28 of it and record it or check it out when  2 9 I get home.  30 Q   And record it later?  31 A   Um-hum.  32 Q   So you would use the information you  33 gather at the feasts as part of your  34 research base?  35 A   That's right."  36  37 Now, do you recall being asked those questions and  38 giving those answers?  39 A   Yes.  I'm talking about personal names in that, not  4 0 adaawk.  41 Q   Those answers were true?  42 A   I was making a list of personal names and I did record  43 those.  44 Q   Have you still got those notes?  45 A   No.  I was -- I was recording them for legal counsel  46 as part of what they had asked me to do in preparation  47 of the case. 17007  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on qualifications  by Mr. Willms  1 Q   So you gave them to legal counsel?  Yes?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Do names play any part in your report?  Are they  4 important to your report, names of people?  5 A  Well, they're important in that if you don't know the  6 name of the person who owns the adaawk, you don't know  7 where it fits, because you don't know what Wilnat'ahl  8 it belongs to, so you have to know the name.  That's  9 why Barbeau and Beynon's collection of these adaawk is  10 so useful and so special.  Boas didn't do that.  He  11 didn't even necessarily record the clan that owned the  12 adaawk.  So it's important to me in that way.  13 However, I -- I used the Duff files for that, because  14 there's a large list, plus my own general knowledge of  15 the names of the chiefs and I used the names also in  16 that houses that are related tend to use very  17 important powerful chiefs' names across -- right  18 across the board.  For example, that Tsibasaa name is  19 used both in Kispiox and down in the coast in Kitkatla  20 and that shows a relationship of the two houses.  So I  21 used it as an indication, not a major source of  22 indication, but as one of the sources for indication  23 of relationships between houses and plotting the  24 migrations.  25 Q   Without just limiting it to adaawk, did you make any  26 notes from 1984 and on of any discussions that you had  27 with Gitksan people such as the names of the feast  2 8 names?  29 A   Not that I can recall, not that I can recall saving.  30 I would jot something down if I used it for a  31 particular purpose and I would throw the note away.  32 Q   Well, what particular purpose would it be incorporated  33 perhaps in your report?  34 A   There was a foundation from my report that I -- there  35 were charts that I used of names as a foundation for  36 the report.  37 Q   And, in fact, the information that you obtained at the  38 feasts that you attended and the names that you jotted  39 down was helpful to you in writing your report, in  40 parts of the report?  41 A   It wasn't a major source of information for it.  It  42 was more important to know how the name system worked.  43 Q   But it was a source of information?  44 A  Well, once I had Duff -- most of the names that I knew  45 were in Duff.  46 Q   Now, just going back to your report and the contents  47 of the report, can you say today how much of the 1700?  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on qualifications  by Mr. Willms  report is based on what you were told by people and  how much of the report is based on the written  references in the report?  Do you know what the split  is?  Is it 50/50, 80/20?  A   I tried to be very careful.  I was very careful in  that if I didn't have a statement either from the  adaawk or from other statements about origins,  relationships and so on, that I wouldn't go beyond the  data, because I knew that this was an area that --  that would be greeted with scepticism.  Q   Of course you had to go beyond the data to get the  cultural overview which is essential?  A   The cultural overview came from what was told me and  what I saw in operation, but it was told to me again  and again over many years and it was the same as  things that are taught to us.  They're just second  nature to you.  I knew what an adaawk was.  I knew  what daxgyet was.  I had limx'ooy.  It wasn't that I  had to memorize information in order to do that  cultural overview.  It was part of my -- what I had  learned through years of experience there.  MR. WILLMS:  My lord, I don't have anymore questions on  qualifications.  I do want to make a point now that  Ms. Marsden referred to a draft; that I would like  that draft produced or perhaps my friend can assure me  that all of the copies have been destroyed.  And,  secondly, Ms. Marsden referred to something that was  produced for counsel which relied on the same  information and covered the same areas.  In my  submission, that's covered by your lordship's Galois  ruling and if there's any question in my friend's mind  about whether it's covered by the Galois ruling, I  suggest that my friend produce that for review by your  lordship and then your lordship can see whether it  falls within that context.  But in my submission, on  the evidence of this witness it clearly does.  THE COURT:  Well, firstly about the report, Mr. Grant, do you  have any instructions in that connection?  MR. GRANT:  Certainly.  As the witness has indicated, there was  a draft and I was so instructed by the witness it was  left at the tribal council.  This is something that,  of course, my friends have raised through  correspondence long before now and I have advised them  that there is no draft.  I personally instructed those  in charge of that archive to search it out.  I checked  all copies that were there and was satisfied that the  only -- there were two copies and they were identical. 17009  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on qualifications  by Mr. Macaulay  Because -- because of the fact there were two copies,  I personally checked them out.  They were identical to  the report that has now been marked as Exhibit 1050  for identification.  There is no first draft there.  I  don't know what happened to it.  I have also checked  and canvassed with Professor Jackson and with other  counsel for the plaintiffs as -- in terms of that.  I'm satisfied there is no draft.  If there had been, I  would have disclosed it to my friends ahead of now, as  has been the practice, so that we wouldn't have any  delay.  THE COURT:  All right.  MR. GRANT:  Regarding the other question, I asked -- my friend  raised this at noon hour with me.  I asked them to  give me the -- I was aware of correspondence regarding  a Galois draft.  I asked them to give me a page and a  volume reference for the Galois ruling -- I wasn't  here for that particular ruling, of course -- so that  I could refresh my memory as to it.  I have discussed  it and I would like to look at that before I make any  further comments regarding that, and I told my friends  so and he's not yet given me this reference.  THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Mr. Macaulay?  CROSS-EXAMINATION ON QUALIFICATIONS BY MR. MACAULAY:  Q   Witness, your study, which is your opinion, is based  on consideration of a -- a number of Northwest --  north coast cultures; is that right?  Not on a consideration of their cultures, on a  consideration of the oral histories from the other  culture -- the other cultures on the north coast.  Did you read the Tlinget histories?  Yes.  All of them?  All the ones I could get my hands on.  I read  Swanton's basic text, and I had the -- I just --  there's just another one that's been published  recently that I've read.  And the -- also the Haida oral histories?  Yes.  And Tsetsaut?  Yes, I have.  You've read all the ones you could find?  Well, there's a -- the only ones I know of that are  in -- in print are in -- I think it's Boas, and I read  those and used those to the extent that they were  useful.  And also the Gitamatt or Gitamatt?  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A 17010  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on qualifications  by Mr. Macaulay  1 A   There are a few published sources for that and I've  2 just recently been able to get ahold of the -- the  3 southern relatives of the Gitamatt and the Owiikenox  4 by Olsen.  5 Q   You refer to that on page 3 of your report.  You refer  6 to all those?  7 A   Um-hum.  8 Q   The Gitamaat, including the Gitamatt?  9 A   That's right.  That's the Gordon Robinson that I was  10 referring to.  11 Q   Who's Gordon Robinson?  12 A   He's the one that published "Tales of Gitamatt".  13 Q   Is he an anthropologist?  14 A   No.  He's Haisla.  That's his own heritage.  15 Q   You mean he's a member of the Gitamatt tribe?  16 A   Right.  17 Q   And what were his sources?  18 A   The oral tradition of his village.  19 Q   Did he identify them?  Was it done the way Barbeau and  2 0 Beynon did?  21 A   No.  In fact, I had to call him on the one account.  22 The others -- I seen other versions of the oral  23 history so I knew who they belonged to, but in one  24 case I had to call him and ask him.  25 Q   You spoke to him about that?  26 A   Yes.  And he spoke to his mother and found the  27 information for me.  28 Q   Was his mother the source of his information about  29 the —  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   -- the oral histories?  32 A   Yes.  His mother was his teacher of the oral  33 histories.  34 Q   And have you read all the available Tsimshian oral  35 histories?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And the area you covered was from Rivers Inlet to  38 Alaska; is that fair too say?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And the Queen Charlotte Island as well?  41 A   I didn't use the Haida in oral histories in the --  42 I -- I didn't use them as a foundation of this report.  43 I read them, but I didn't include the Haida as part of  44 what I was dealing with unless it was referred to in  45 the Tsimshian traditions.  If they said a Haida group  46 migrated from the Queen Charlottes and joined the  47 Tsimshian, then I used that, but I didn't use the 17011  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on qualifications  by Mr. Macaulay  1 Haida sources themselves.  2 Q   Well, I'm looking at page 6 of your report and the  3 second paragraph reads:  4  5 "All the ada'ox I have examined take place  6 in what I will call the Northcoast area, an  7 area stretching from Owiikenox to the  8 coastal villages of the Eyak"...  9  10 That is from Rivers Inlet to Alaska?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q  13 "... and from the islands of the Haida to  14 the island areas of the Kaska and the  15 Babine."  16  17 So that's the area covered by your examination of  18 adaawk?  19 A   I examined them.  I read them and in the odd incident  20 they were -- they were useful to me, but they were not  21 a major foundation of my report, the Haida ones in  22 particular.  23 Q   How about the Sekani oral histories?  24 A   No, not -- in fact, I don't -- no.  25 Q   Well, the -- the Gitksan oral histories, particularly  26 the more recent ones, have a lot to do with the  27 Sekani, don't they?  28 A   Yes.  Well, not all Indian groups record their history  29 and their oral traditions.  There are Indian groups  30 that don't do that.  31 Q   Are the Sekani one of those?  32 A  And I think the Sekani are one of those, although they  33 may have traditions that I'm not aware of, but to my  34 knowledge, the use of oral histories as an adaawk in  35 the sense of an important aspect of the culture fades  36 as you head east, and I know that on the eastern coast  37 there are other -- there are other -- there are other  38 peoples that do have oral traditions, but I in  39 between -- to my knowledge, it's not an important  40 factor the way it is for the north coast peoples.  41 Q   And the scope of your work included the tracing of the  42 essential cultural institutions in the north coast  43 area back to their origins prior to deglaciation?  44 A   Not prior to deglaciation.  45 Q   Not -- I'm sorry.  It's not prior to deglaciation?  46 A   No.  To the beginning of deglaciation.  47 Q   Well, I'm quoting your words.  The same page 6, you 17012  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on qualifications  by Mr. Macaulay  1 say towards the bottom of the page:  2  3 "I was able to trace the essential cultural  4 institutions in the Northcoast area back to  5 their origins prior to deglaciation."  6  7 That's what it says, doesn't it?  8 A   I'm sorry.  By that I mean what they arrived in this  9 area with.  You're correct.  I'm sorry.  10 Q   And you also highlighted the evolution of institutions  11 into the Northcoast culture?  12 A  As they were indicated in the oral histories.  13 Q   And you also did a summary of the socio-political  14 relationships of Gitksan society?  15 A   They come to light in the historical overview and when  16 it provides a context.  I didn't attempt to do a  17 comprehensive overall description and analysis of  18 socio-political relationships inasmuch as they were  19 indicated by the -- by the adaawk and in as much as  20 they helped to understand them.  21 Q   Well, in your -- at page 7 of your preface where you  22 describe the scope of your work, you end by saying:  23  24 "This cultural overview is continued in the  25 conclusion where it summarizes the  26 socio-political relationships"...  27  28 And I put in square brackets of the Gitksan.  29  30 "... that come to light in the historical  31 overview."  32  33 A   Yes.  That come to light in the adaawk as I have  34 chronologized them.  35 Q   Well, isn't it your opinion that the socio-political  36 relationships are described in the adaawk and nowhere  37 else?  38 A   You mean the very ancient ones or do you mean the  39 contemporary ones?  40 Q   Well, let's take the one from 10,000 B.P. to — to  41 3,000, the ones you deal with in Chapter 1 of your  42 report.  43 A   Yes.  Well, I think there could be contemporary Indian  44 people that have been told long ago we did this or  45 long ago things were like that.  The adaawk are the  46 main source in print of that information from long  47 ago, yes. 17013  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on qualifications  by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   Well, you have covered in your -- what, as part of  2 your background a vast amount of material, haven't  3 you?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And you selected that yourself.  You didn't use any  6 analysis method or methodology in selecting that  7 tremendous wide scope of material?  8 A   You mean the traditions of the other peoples?  9 Q   Yes.  10 A   It started to peter off at the northern and southern  11 extremities.  It started to be different.  12 MR. MACAULAY:  This is a good time to end the afternoon, my  13 lord.  14 THE COURT:  All right.  You won't finish your cross-examination.  15 All right.  16 MR. GRANT:  My lord, if I — I just want to raise.  I had  17 intended, of course, not to deal with anything related  18 to this witness' qualifications but to discuss -- to  19 use the evening to discuss something for later in the  20 week about the witness in her direct evidence, and I  21 wonder if my friend has any objection to that, because  22 it certainly -- it's a matter of sort of the  23 chronology of just reviewing the material of this  24 witness.  If my friend has no objection, I have no  25 intention of raising any of the issues out of the  26 qualification.  27 MR. WILLMS:  I don't have any quarrel, my lord, with my friend  28 talking to the witness about the substance of her  2 9 evidence.  30 THE COURT:  She hasn't really embarked upon that.  31 MR. WILLMS:  She hasn't.  32 THE COURT:  All right.  Yes.  All right.  33 MR. WILLMS:  One thing, my lord, before we -- could I mark the  34 little extract as 1051-3?  I didn't formally do that.  35 It's the first 10 pages of Volume 1.  36 THE COURT:  Yes.  1051-3.  37 (EXHIBIT 1051-3:  Historical and cultural overview of  38 the Gitksan)  39 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until  40 ten o'clock tomorrow.  41  42 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL JUNE 6, 1989 AT 10:00 A.M.)  43  44  45  46  47 17014  S.M. Marsden (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam on qualifications  by Mr. Macaulay  1  2  3 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  4 a true and accurate transcript of the  5 proceedings transcribed to the best  6 of my skill and ability.  7  8  9    10 Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  11 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47