Open Collections

Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-06-21] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jun 21, 1989

Item Metadata


JSON: delgamuukw-1.0019783.json
JSON-LD: delgamuukw-1.0019783-ld.json
RDF/XML (Pretty): delgamuukw-1.0019783-rdf.xml
RDF/JSON: delgamuukw-1.0019783-rdf.json
Turtle: delgamuukw-1.0019783-turtle.txt
N-Triples: delgamuukw-1.0019783-rdf-ntriples.txt
Original Record: delgamuukw-1.0019783-source.json
Full Text

Full Text

 17823  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 June 21, 198 9  2 Vancouver, B.C.  3  4 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. In the Supreme Court of British  5 Columbia, this 21st day of June, 1989, in the matter  6 of Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen at bar, my  7 lord.  8 May I remind you, sir, you are still under oath?  9 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  10 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.  And would you state your name for the  11 record, please?  12 THE WITNESS:   Robert Galois.  13 THE REGISTRAR: Thank you.  14 THE COURT:  Willms.  15  16 CROSS-EXAMINATION CONT. BY MR. WILLMS:  17 Q   I wonder if Exhibit 1033, tab 24, could be put to the  18 witness.  It's the first grey binder, the one I filled  19 up, my lord.  20 A   I have a document too following a request yesterday  21 concerning a document that I referred to.  I couldn't  22 find the one that I thought of at the time, but I have  23 found another document which is -- which speaks  24 directly to the point at issue.  This is the only copy  25 that I have of it.  I don't know what the procedure is  26 from here, but shall I give it to somebody to make  27 copies or read it in?  28 THE COURT:  Well, we can do that.  Perhaps you should show it to  29 Mr. Adams first perhaps.  It's a letter from Constable  30 Brown to Fitzgerald?  31 MR. WILLMS:  All right.  My lord, that's agreeable.  I can deal  32 with that later.  I think I can help the witness  33 anyway on the point that he referred to.  I think I --  34 did you find the document?  35 THE COURT:  All right.  36 MR. WILLMS:  37 Q   Now, just -- I'm showing you the second page of the  38 letter of May 9th, 1985, from Mr. Rush to yourself  39 which you'll recall was referred to in a later letter  40 from Mr. Overstall to yourself as a part of the terms  41 of reference for the work that you were to do, and  42 you'll see that this is the second page, and the first  43 item you did some historical review respecting the  44 tensions between white settlers and Indian land-owners  45 in the 1900 to 1920 period, and that is set out in  46 part in your report; correct?  47 A   I did deal with that topic.  Yes. 17824  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  Q  2  3  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  MR. WILLMS  46  47  Yes.  The second item, the regulation of the traplines  and development of the trapline registration system in  the 1920's, that is not in your opinion report.  Did  you do any historical research into that topic?  I did some very preliminary examination of sources,  but I made no attempt to gather material for the  trapline system on any careful or co-ordinated basis  and I made no attempt whatsoever to analyse that  material that I did collect.  All right.  The third item suggested is the  implementation of the Forest Act and Regulations in  Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en territory in the 1940 to 1950  period.  Once again, that is not in your opinion  report.  Did you do any historical research in respect  of that issue?  I did not -- very preliminary work collecting, as I  recall, data from the annual reports of the Forestry  Branch of the Department of Lands in which they  provide just statistics on a regional basis of  production of lumber, a variety of different  statistics, sawmills operating, shingle mills, and I  think that's about all that I did on that period.  I  may have looked at -- I think I actually looked very  briefly at the Sloan report, but again I made no  attempt to analyse the material that I did collect.  Did -- in respect of either two, the regulation of  traplines or three, the implementation of the Forest  Act and Regulations, did you ever express preliminary  views in respect of the documents that you did review?  I'm not sure if I -- I'm -- I didn't -- I never dealt  with the trapline issue.  I may have -- I'm not sure  if I wrote up for the 1940's and 50's anything about  the forest industry or not.  I don't think I did, but  I'm not absolutely sure about that.  If I did it was  very preliminary and I don't think I have anything on  it.  You know that your report in respect of the economy  ends at 1897 and in respect of protest actions ends at  1927?  Yes.  Were those two dates dates chosen by you or were those  dates that were given to you to end your analysis at?  No, they were dates that I selected on the basis of  information that I'd collected.  :   My lord, perhaps the easiest thing would be to  just put this page, replace the page 2 of the letter  that is already at 1033-24 with this second page, or 17825  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 add it to the tab.  2 THE COURT: I think it should be added to the tab.  The  3 discussion during the ruling I made yesterday may  4 make -- I was going to say may make more sense, but  5 that might not be universally accepted language, but  6 might be more comprehensible.  7 MR. WILLMS:  8 Q   Thank you.  Now, yesterday, Dr. Galois, in respect of  9 the 1888 incidents and the Roycraft and Fitzstubbs at  10 Hazelton, you mentioned something about Indian badges  11 and you suggested that subsequent events respecting  12 Indian badges was somehow significant to a  13 consideration of Roycraft and Fitzstubbs' attendance  14 at Hazelton.  Now, can you -- what did you mean by  15 that?  Can you explain that, please?  16 A  As I recall, Fitzstubbs -- I'm not sure if he was  17 actually in that meeting; may well have been --  18 attempted to get the chiefs to act as constables.  19 Q   Yes.  20 A   In other words, to accept the badges was the term that  21 was used.  22 Q   All right.  And did -- what happened after that?  23 Did —  24 A  Well, there seemed to be some sort of acceptance of  25 this on behalf of Fitzstubbs and Roycraft, but when it  26 came to implement this things did not go particularly  27 smoothly and a number of the chiefs rejected to accept  28 the position that -- accepting the badge implied.  2 9 Q   All right.  Could Volume 2 of the documents be put to  30 the witness, please, and would you turn in Volume 2,  31 Dr. Galois, to tab 82?  And at tab 82 of Volume 2 is a  32 letter of April 23rd, 1889, from Fitzstubbs to the  33 Attorney-General; correct?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Yes.  Now, you'll see on the second page of the  36 extract that you have put in here, which is -- it's --  37 skipping page 18, it goes from 17 to 19, but just  38 starting at the top of page 19, Fitzstubbs says this:  39  40 "They affect to slight the authority of the  41 law, and have so ridiculed the idea of  42 assumption of police duties by the chiefs  43 that these last have shrunk from their  44 acceptance with aversion, though they were  45 at first emulous of them, except those at  46 Kitsayookla who were sworn in last autumn  47 and never complained that they are 17826  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 constantly derided for the possession of the  2 badge, by the adherents of the missionary at  3 that place, before whose arrival, the people  4 so gladly welcomed the advent of lawful  5 authority, and to which, more than half it  6 is said are now antagonistic.  The knowledge  7 upon which the above observations are  8 founded came to me after a revival meeting  9 under the direction of a native missionary  10 Mr. Pierce held in this town towards the end  11 of last January when the Government  12 officials and whites were publicly vilified.  13 I forward an almost verbatim report of the  14 addresses at the meeting referred, and they  15 are said to be mild in comparison with those  16 usually delivered in the other villages.  17 One cannot but admire the energy and  18 persistence of the superintendent of this  19 mission, but of 'Peace on earth and good  20 will toward men' be one of his objects he  21 had not, by the employment of partially  22 educated and injudicious agents, whose  23 propogandism is belligerent rather than  24 beneficient either furthered its attainment,  25 or displayed the faculty of wise selection."  26  27 Now, is that extract contextually significant in  28 respect of the refusal to accept the badges?  29 A   It's part of a very complex sort of activities.  It  30 has some relevance, but it's certainly no more  31 significant than a large number of other documents  32 which pertain to this event and subsequent events.  I  33 would add, for example, that one of the few who did  34 accept was a Kispiox Indian who was called Big Louie  35 who was subsequently found to be unacceptable because  36 he had -- he had accepted the post simply because of  37 the money in order to a potlatch and he spent a good  38 deal of time going around counselling the Indians that  39 there was no need to obey the potlatch law.  There's  40 quite a long file about that.  I should add too that  41 it was a very normal and customary reaction at this  42 point in time amongst white officials to became  43 missionaries for actions that they -- by Indians that  44 they viewed as unacceptable.  45 MR. WILLMS:   Yes.  4 6    THE COURT:  It wouldn't be the Big Louie who was mentioned in  47 Damon Runyon's book who had 19 arrests and no 17827  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 convictions, was it?  It must be a different Big  2 Louie.  3 THE WITNESS:   Big Louie got around, but I don't think that far,  4 my lord.  5 MR. WILLMS:  6 Q   Could Volume 3 of the document book, of the witness'  7 document book, be put before him, and would you please  8 turn in Volume 3 to tab 138, and at tab 138 there is a  9 letter of July 19th, 1872, from Fitzstubbs to the  10 Provincial Secretary, Mr. Robertson?  11 A   Yes.  12 MR. WILLMS:   And in that letter you'll see on the first page  13 that Fitzstubbs refers to a report that the Indians on  14 the Skeena have prevented both men from passing up,  15 and then says on the second page in the last paragraph  16 "I intend to leave here on Tuesday next to investigate  17 the matter." And you recognize that Fitzstubbs is  18 referring to the events of Kitsegukla where the river  19 was closed?  20 MR. ADAMS:  My lord, the reference -- the signature appears to  21 me to be Fitzgerald rather than Fitzstubbs.  I don't  22 know whether my friend wants to pursue that with the  23 witness.  24 MR. WILLMS:  25 Q   Oh, Fitzgerald.  26 A   Fitzgerald it is, yes.  He at this time was the --  27 Q   Stipendiary magistrate?  28 A   Gold commissioner and magistrate at the Omineca mining  29 district and he, on obtaining information of the  30 events at Kitsegukla, did go there I believe.  31 Q   All right.  Now, I am going to show you a letter of  32 August 31st, 1872 from Fitzgerald to the  33 Attorney-General and you recognize this letter, do you  34 not?  You'll see on the first page he says about the  35 three-hole punch that:  36  37 "...I reached Hazelton on the 3rd instant,  38 and found that the cause of the trouble  39 between the Kit-sa-gook-lah Indians and the  40 boatmen on the Skeena River was in  41 consequence of the loss, by fire, of a  42 village which was owned by the Indians."  43  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   So this is his report on his attendance, correct, and  46 you recognize that?  47 A   I'm just looking -- yes, I think. 1782?  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   So he explains on the second page:  2  3 "I sent for Kit-tum-ska-nese the chief of the  4 Ak-el-gate tribe of Indians and asked him  5 for his assistance to settle the trouble  6 between the Kit-sa-gook-lah Indians and the  7 whites by conciliatory measures if possible  8 and failing those, to obey my orders in  9 arresting such Indians as I might point out.  10 Kit-tum-ska-nese assented and manned two  11 canoes with twenty of his tribe, and we  12 proceeded to Kit-sa-gook-lah.  On my arrival  13 there I was informed that Constable R.A.  14 Brown had returned from Skeena mouth with a  15 message from His Excellency, the Lieutenant  16 Governor, inviting the chiefs of the  17 Kit-sa-gook-lah tribe to meet him at the  18 mouth of the river and that the Indians had  19 accepted the invitation and had gone down  20 with the constable a few hours before we  21 arrived."  22  23 Now, is this the document that you were referring  24 to in respect of invitation?  25 A   Yes, I think it is.  2 6 Q   All right.  And you noted when you reviewed this  27 document that Fitzgerald wasn't there at the time that  28 Brown extended the invitation?  He arrived after Brown  29 had left?  30 A   Right.  31 Q   Right.  Now, is it your view as a historical  32 geographer that this record of the events at  33 Kitsegukla is contextually more significant than the  34 accounts of the Indians who are actually there?  35 A   It's a difficult question to answer in a very simple  36 and short fashion, in part because neither document is  37 perfect.  What we have is two sides of an equation  38 which are going to be viewed obviously somewhat  39 different, and that is part of what I was trying to  40 get at with my reconstruction of the events, so that  41 one would expect I think a different -- somewhat  42 different view of the events from both sides.  So I  43 think both have a certain validity, and when -- it's a  44 question of weighing each against the other, which is  45 what I try to do on a variety of different issues, and  46 I should add too that this is not the only document  47 which refers to the events by -- from the white side, 17829  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  that the other document that I produced this morning  speaks to that too.  Q   All right.  Well, perhaps I'll have a chance to review  that and deal with that after the break.  Is that  other document -- does it refer to an invitation as  well?  A   It's Brown's -- a letter that he wrote just as he was  about to depart to go up to Kitsegukla to meet with  the chiefs and it does in fact use the term invite the  Kitsegukla Indians or the chiefs down to confer with  the Lieutenant Governor.  Q   All right.  A  And I take that then to be probably the best  indication of what Brown's activities comprised, and I  find that not inconsistent with my assessment of the  Indian narratives, bearing in mind that -- the  significant point that they dressed up in ceremonial  regalia to go down to this meeting, and I regard that  as very unlikely sort of behaviour for somebody who's  being arrested, but it is the sort of behaviour that  would be both appropriate and perhaps even necessary  if one was going to meet with a white chief to come to  some settlement of an outstanding dispute.  Q   Right.  And you know -- do you know whether Brown's  letter was written before or after the Lieutenant  Governor actually arrived to give Brown his  instructions?  A  Well, it's written after he had been down to Victoria  to consult with -- to take the news of the events at  Kitsegukla after his first visit there to inform them,  and I presume that they then worked out the procedures  that they wished to follow, and I would assume that he  was given appropriate instructions because that -- he  departed -- it indicates that he's about to depart on  July the 27th, and I don't think that HMS Scout  reached Metlakatla until August the 1st, so I don't  think there was any other opportunity to give him any  further instructions than he seems to have described  as contained in that letter.  COURT:  What was HMS Scout?  WITNESS:  That was a British naval vessel, your honour.  COURT:  What class, do you know?  WITNESS:   Pardon?  COURT:  What class?  WITNESS:   I'm afraid I don't know.  It may be described in  one of the accounts.  There's a good deal of  correspondence back and forth between the Lieutenant 17830  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Governor and the senior naval officer at Esquimault  2 all about obtaining use of the vessel to go there.  3 THE COURT:  While we're on naval matters, can you tell me these  4 canoes that they were using --  5 THE WITNESS:   Uh-huh.  6 THE COURT:  — of what were they constructed?  7 THE WITNESS:   Of cedar I think, your honour.  8 THE COURT:  They wouldn't be the birch bark canoes?  9 THE WITNESS:   No, no.  They wouldn't be birch bark.  That  10 wasn't available there.  These were river and ocean  11 canoes and I -- as far as I'm aware they would have  12 been constructed out of cedar.  13 THE COURT:  Dug out?  14 THE WITNESS:   Dug and burnt out I think, yes, and maybe  15 slightly shaped as a result of putting stones in to  16 heat up so that you could bend it in the same way that  17 one did with the bent cedar boxes.  18 THE COURT:  Thank you.  19 MR. WILLMS:  2 0 Q   I'm showing you the document that you produced  21 earlier.  It's a letter of July 27th, 1872, and it's  22 from Constable Brown to Fitzgerald; correct?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And you'll see the second page or the third page he  25 says this:  26  27 "I am now about to proceed to the above  28 mentioned village Kit-sa-gook-lah to invite  29 the chiefs to come down here to confer with  30 His Honour, the Lieutenant Governor, who  31 will arrive on HM Scout in a few days."  32  33 All right.  Now, first of all, you'll agree with  34 me that this is contextually relevant to why  35 Fitzgerald describes it as an invitation, isn't it,  36 because it's written to Fitzgerald?  37 A   Yes, but Fitzgerald is unlikely to have received that  38 at the time -- well, it's difficult -- does it -- it  39 has received on there.  I'm not sure it has a date.  40 My question is I don't know whether Fitzgerald had  41 received that letter when he wrote the letter that I  42 have before me.  43 Q   All right.  44 A   Because I believe this is written August the 1st,  45 isn't it?  46 Q   August 31st.  47 A   Oh, 31st. 17831  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  Q  2  A  3  4  Q  5  6  7  8  A  9  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  MR.  WILLMS  23  24  25  THE  COURT:  26  MR.  WILLMS  27  THE  COURT:  28  MR.  WILLMS  29  30  31  32  33  34  MR.  WILLMS  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  46  47  Yes.  That would make it a good deal more probable, but I'm  not sure.  And the second thing that you'll agree with me is that  Brown writes this letter before the Lieutenant  Governor comes to Port Essington.  That's what Brown  says?  Well, I don't think he ever went to Port Essington.  You mean to Metlakatla.  Metlakatla, before his honour arrived?  Well, as I stated, yes, I mean, the point being that  Brown had been down to visit the Lieutenant Governor  and had returned north in order to invite the  Kitsegukla chiefs down to the coast to meet the  Lieutenant Governor when he arrived.  And when they  did arrive, Brown had not yet returned, so that the  Lieutenant Governor and HMS Scout went on to a number  of other locations to settle outstanding business and  returning to Metlakatla about, I don't know, the 7th,  8th, or 9th of August, by which time Brown had  returned with the Kitsegukla chiefs.  :  My lord, could the letter of August 31st be 1038 --  1033-A-8, and I will make copies of the letter of July  27th.  I'd ask it be 1033-A-9.  All right.  This letter of August 31st will be 8.  :  A-8.  A-8, and what will be 9?  :  Nine will be the letter from Brown to Fitzgerald of  July 27th, 1872.  (EXHIBIT 1033-A-8: Letter dated August 31, 1872)  (EXHIBIT 1033-A-9: Letter dated July 27, 1872)  Now, you have Volume 3 of your document book?  Yes.  Would you turn to tab 108, please?  You will recall  that my friend put passages from this tab to you in  respect of resources and occupations of the Indian  bands on the Skeena?  I have to take your word for it.  I honestly can't  remember.  All right.  Mine's marked up.  What I've just put  before you is the complete report from which the first  two pages are taken at tab 108, and you will recall  that the extracts at tab 108 are taken from a  communication from Loring to the Superintendent of 17832  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Indian Affairs?  2 A   Yes.  This is Loring's annual report for -- and the  3 date there is written July 25th, 1899.  4 MR. WILLMS:   Right.  Now, just — you'll see that he deals with  5 the various tribes, and at the bottom of the page,  6 although you can't -- unfortunately the highlighting  7 has partially obliterated it, but it's the Kitwanga  8 band you'll see from the reference?  9 THE COURT:  Which page?  10 MR. WILLMS:  I'm on the first page of the extract that I handed  11 up, my lord.  It's got a 365 in the lower right-hand  12 corner.  13 THE COURT:  Yes.  Okay.  14 MR. WILLMS:  15 Q   And the first description is the Kitwanga band.  And  16 if you turn to the second page of the extract that I  17 handed to you, Dr. Galois, you'll see that Loring  18 describes the resources and occupation of the Kitwanga  19 band as:  20  21 "...catching salmon, keeping a few cattle,  22 hunting, trapping, and gathering wild  23 berries.  The occupations of this band are  24 varied, amongst the principal being that of  25 working during the salmon season about the  26 canneries of the east, getting out cord-wood  27 along the river, hunting and trapping.  28 Amongst the women, the occupations are:  29 Keeping house, and getting and drying  30 berries for winter's use."  31  32 Now, that reference is important, is it not, in  33 the context of the economy of the region when you're  34 assessing the economy of the Kitwanga band in 1899?  35 A  Well, again, it's one document amongst a whole set  36 that I examined.  It's of some use.  It's certainly --  37 it's not the best description I don't think.  It's  38 slightly out of the period that I was dealing with,  39 and all that one has is a listing of different  40 activities which are both traditional and  41 non-traditional.  42 Q   Yes.  43 A   There's no -- unfortunately there's no indications of  44 the relative importance of either, simply that -- of  45 either the two categories.  46 MR. WILLMS:   Now, just skipping over the Kitwancool village to  47 page 211 where they discuss the Kitsegukla band, 17833  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  you'll see under "Resources - Some of the people fish,  hunt, and trap."  THE COURT:  Where is the Kitsegukla —  MR. WILLMS:  Kitsegukla is the band discussed on page 211.  It's  on the right-hand side, my lord.  THE COURT:  Top one or the bottom one?  MR. WILLMS:  The top one under "Resources - Some of the people  fish, hunt and trap."  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. WILLMS:  "The women, with their children, gather and  dry the wild berry crop."  And then under "Occupation".  "The occupations of this band consist of  working during the salmon season, in the  canneries of the coast, getting out  cord-wood along the river, hunting and  trapping.  The women, at the proper seasons,  gather berries and dry them."  And just if you carry on up the river, which is  the direction that Loring is going in his description,  you'll see that he next describes at the bottom of the  page the Gitanmaax band at Hazelton, and over on the  top of the next page, the left-hand side, describes  the resource --  THE COURT:  I'm sorry, that one at the bottom is Gitanmaax?  MR. WILLMS:  Q    Gitanmaax, my lord, Hazelton.  The "Resources" are  fishing, hunting, and trapping, gathering the wild  berry crop, growing potatoes and hay, and then he says  under "Occupation":  "On account of Hazelton being the terminus of  all communication with the coast and the  consequent demand for labour, the Indians  easily find employment at good wages, in  packing into the interior, boating, mining,  sawing lumber, getting out cord-wood, and  not a few are working about the canneries of  the coast, and hunt and trap in the winter.  The women, assisted by their children, pick  and dry wild berries." 17834  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 And then going up the river, the next is the  2 Kispiox band, and you'll see the resources have  3 already been read to you -- have already been read by  4 my friend so I won't read that again on the top of the  5 right-hand page, but under "Occupation", again:  6  7 "The young people of this band, during the  8 salmon season, go to work at the canneries  9 of the coast, in the mines, and follow  10 various other occupations; during the  11 winter, hunting and trapping.  The women,  12 with their children, gather the wild berry  13 crop, and by drying, prepare it for winter's  14 use."  15  16 Now, that's -- and then moving still further up  17 the river over on to the Babine you'll see he's got  18 the Kisgagas band, and I won't read "Resources" to  19 you, my friend already read that, but you'll see under  20 "Occupation":  21  22 "Very few of these people go to the coast to  23 work; they depend almost entirely on hunting  24 and trapping, and till their potato-patches.  25 The women, accompanied by their children,  26 gather wild berries and dry them for  27 winter's use."  28  29 And then the next Gitksan village is Kuldo'o, and  30 my friend has already read you the "Resources" and  31 "Occupation".  I won't read you that again, but from  32 reviewing this, did you note any historical or  33 geographical significance about the occupational  34 change as you moved up the river?  35 A   Yes, I think I referred to that in my report.  I mean,  36 there is a geographical pattern here.  The more  37 isolated Gitksan villages one sees that there are few  38 of what I called the non-traditional activities.  39 Those are located primarily on the lower and  40 particularly around Gitanmaax.  41 Q   And you'll agree with me, Dr. Galois, that when you  42 read Loring anyway it appears that the only location  43 where you could describe almost exclusively or  44 entirely natie traditional activities taking place is  45 Kuldo'o?  4 6 A   Yes, but one must remember, and I make some attempt to  47 point this out too, that traditional and 17835  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 non-traditional activities weren't necessarily  2 incompatible.  The same person could follow both  3 because of the seasonal patterns of at least some of  4 the traditional activity.  There were adjustments that  5 were called for and required.  6 Q   Right.  Do you recall from the historical record when  7 it was that Kuldo'o was essentially abandoned?  8 A   It's after the period that I looked at, in terms of  9 the economy and society was still a functioning  10 settlement at that point, as Loring's report for 1899  11 indicates.  12 Q   All right.  Now just turning, and my friend didn't put  13 the Wet'suwet'en villages to you, but if you just  14 carry on in the extract you'll see that Loring also  15 dealt with "Hoquel-get" village, and this is on the --  16 you see the "Hoquel-get" village over from Kuldo'o  17 village?  18 A   Right.  19 Q   And under "Buildings, stock and implements" he says:  20  21 "This band owns six frame and thirty-four log  22 houses and six stables; of stock, thirty-two  23 head of horses, four cows, seven bulls and  24 eight of young stock."  25  26 That is contextually significant in respect of  27 non-traditional activities taking place?  28 A   I think I indicated in my report that non-traditional  29 activities took place amongst the Wet'suwet'en as  30 well.  Primarily, I think the most important was  31 packing and in association with that they raised  32 horses.  And I think, I'm not sure, but there is an  33 appendix to my report which indicates both the number  34 and distribution of horses and cattle.  35 Q   And then if you just turn the page you will see, start  36 at the bottom of the page, the Moricetown band is  37 described, and at the top of page 216 on the left-hand  38 side Loring describes "Buildings, stock and  3 9 implements":  40  41 "This band owns twenty-eight log and six  42 frame houses, and nine stables; of stock,  43 fifty-three head of horses, four cows, three  44 oxen and two bulls; and a few implements and  45 gardening tools."  46  47 Those you recognize are indicators of an 17836  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 agricultural economy?  2 A   Yes, but there are other sources which indicate that  3 this was relatively unimportant.  I'm thinking  4 particularly of Poudrier's comments on the attention  5 that the people of Moricetown devoted to agricultural  6 pursuits.  That is in one of the tabs that's been  7 cited and referred to, and I would add too that there  8 are a number of other documents which refer to the  9 persistent significance of traditional activities  10 amongst the Wet'suwet'en, hunting and trapping  11 primarily, but also fishing.  And I think at one point  12 in the 1890's in a letter Loring even goes so far as  13 to say that the Wet'suwet'en are hunters and trappers  14 solely.  That's somewhat of an exaggeration, as Loring  15 is somewhat wont to do, and one has to approach his  16 statements with a certain degree of caution.  17 MR. WILLMS:  Could this be 1033-A-10, my lord?  18 THE COURT:  Yes.  19  20 (EXHIBIT 1033-A-10: Excerpt from Loring's annual  21 report, Hazelton,  July 25th, 1899)  22  23 MR. WILLMS:  Dr. Galois, I'm now showing you the other extract  24 in volume --  25 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, what are you -- I'm sorry, you're now  26 giving him something different?  27 MR. WILLMS:  Yes, my lord, the last extract was the complete --  2 8 THE COURT:  I thought you were handing me another copy of the  2 9 same thing.  30 MR. WILLMS:  31 Q   No, my lord.  So the Hazelton July 25th, 1899, is  32 A-10.  And I'm just going to ask the witness to  33 confirm that the last page at tab 108 of Volume 3 is  34 taken from the Loring letter of July 18th, 1900 to the  35 Superintendent of Indian Affairs, the document that  36 I've just handed up?  37 A   I'm sorry, which one do you want me to confirm?  38 Q   This is a letter of July 18th, 1900?  39 A   Right.  40 Q   And you'll see the very last page --  41 A   Oh —  42 Q   -- at tab 108 is taken from the Loring extract that  43 I've handed to you, and I just noticed, my lord, and I  44 don't know if they're all the same way --  45 A   That page is missing.  46 Q   No, it's out of chronological order.  It's  47 mispaginated. 17837  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 A   Page 232 is it?  2 Q   They're all there, they're just in the wrong order,  3 but you'll see that the extract at tab 108 is really  4 page 232 and 233 from the July 18th letter?  5 A   Yes, I'm with you now.  6 MR. WILLMS:  Correct.  And, my lord, I just want to mark that as  7 1033-A-ll.  8 THE COURT:  All right.  9  10 (EXHIBIT 1033-A-ll: Letter from Loring dated July  11 18,1900)  12  13 MR. WILLMS:  And if you could now, Dr. Galois, turn to page 61  14 of your report, and I'd ask that Volume 4 be put to  15 the witness.  Please turn to tab 239 of Volume 4, and  16 you'll see that the quote that you have on pages 61 to  17 64 of your report is taken from the document at Volume  18 4, tab 239.  19 THE COURT:  What were the pages of the reports?  20 MR. WILLMS:  21 Q   It's pages 61 to 64, my lord.  22 A  What I have I think there is -- well, that's about  23 Jean Baptiste.  2 4 Q   Do you have Volume 4?  2 5 A   I don't know.  26 Q   Tab 239?  27 A   This is 38 I'm looking at, 239.  28 THE COURT:  This is on page 2 of tab 39 the quotation of page 61  29 of the report.  30 MR. WILLMS:  Yes, I've got it.  At 239 the witness — the  31 exhibit, my lord, appears to have it at tab 238 and --  32 THE COURT:  I have it at 39.  33 MR. WILLMS:  34 Q   Maybe we can all make sure that -- it's described in  35 my friend's list.  239 is described as the minutes of  36 the Wet'suwet'en meetings, so it appears that the  37 document --  38 A   I have a letter from Godfrey to --  39 MR. WILLMS:  Oh, it's been switched.  That should be tab 238.  40 MR. ADAMS:  Yes, it's marked 238 at the top.  41 MR. WILLMS:  42 Q   All right.  Perhaps that could be squared away before  43 we -- before I muddle the record up.  Now, my question  44 was the document at Volume 4, tab 239, is the document  45 that you've quoted from at pages 61 to 64 of your  46 report?  47 A   Yes. 1783?  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   All right.  Now, you'll see at the very beginning it  2 says -- it describes the meeting July 15th, 1908?  3 A   It's 1909.  4 Q   1909, and this is Vowell and Stewart with the  5 Hagwilget Indians; correct?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And you'll see after Mr. Commissioner Stewart's  8 address:  9  10 "Chief McKenzie replies:  We now will put  11 before you our needs.  On our hunting  12 grounds we always have an habitation in the  13 shape of a rough cabin, which may appear  14 poor to others, but are dear to us, where we  15 reside when there.  We now wish that some of  16 the grounds be secured for us.  We people  17 are in habit of somewhat a roving and  18 roaming disposition.  19 The whites have come and taken up great  20 areas of land, and our reserves are very  21 small.  Many of us people have a great  22 number of cattle and horses and we are very  23 much pinched in on our reserves."  24  25 Now, first of all, are there any documents that  26 you're aware of in the historical record where the  27 Wet'suwet'en advised the commission that they did not  28 want reserves secured to them subsequent to 1909?  29 A   Subsequent to 1909 they didn't want reserves.  As far  30 as I can recall, the problem that the Wet'suwet'en  31 were facing was the diminution of their land base and  32 they were in a very difficult and a very defensive  33 position and they -- they wanted a secure land base I  34 think is basically the substance of their requirements  35 and of their requests in various documents, and also  36 on the redress for grievances that they had suffered  37 as a result of the entry of whites into their  38 territory, and there have been a whole list of  39 dispossession cases.  40 Q   Is the reference to cattle and horses contextually  41 relevant to the question of reserves?  42 A  As relevant as is the reference to hunting grounds.  43 Q   Yes.  And you'll agree -- you didn't quote David  44 Francis in your report, but you'll agree that when you  45 read through David Francis much of the discussion is  46 about horses, cattle, and the problems that the small  47 reserves have caused respecting pasturing stock and 17839  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 cutting hay?  2 A  Well, that's at the area where most of the packing  3 took place and where presumably the horses were kept.  4 It's not referring to the hunting grounds, whereas  5 most of the document I think refers to the problem of  6 access to hunting and fishing grounds.  7 Q   Okay.  Now, you started quoting from the document on  8 page 2 with James Yami in your report, and then you  9 carried on quoting until page 4 down to the last, but  10 you didn't put in the last paragraph on page 4, and in  11 the last paragraph on page 4 this is David Francis,  12 chief, speaking.  13  14 "Of the white men there are some very bad  15 characters.  Our agent has done all he could  16 for us, and we obey all laws of our Faith  17 and the Government.  We always try to obey  18 our agent.  We are the children of the  19 government, and we follow our leaders."  20  21 What documents after this date can you point to  22 where a Wet'suwet'en chief says that he will not obey  23 the laws of the government?  24 A   I believe there's some documents in the case -- in  25 some of the cases that are indicated here that persist  26 into the 1920's.  I believe Jean Baptiste, after he's  27 been dispossessed several times, as a sort of last  28 resort makes some sort of threats to fire or shoot.  I  29 mean he's in a very desperate strait by this time.  30 People have been moved and moved and moved again and  31 their habitations have been burnt down and they've  32 essentially been ignored and they've had no redress  33 for their grievances whatsoever.  These grievances  34 were repeated in 1910 in a different form to  35 MacDougall, including maps of the various hunting  36 areas and fishing sites, some of which they've been  37 dispossessed from and some of which they wished to  38 have secured.  39 Q   But my question was focused on any statement in the  40 historical record by a Wet'suwet'en chief that he  41 would not obey the laws of the government?  42 A   I think Jean Baptiste was a chief -- I'm not sure if  43 he was -- but there was some -- some kind of reference  44 in there.  It's the Babine Agency land matters file.  45 I couldn't tell you which specific letter in there.  46 There are a large number of letters in there dealing  47 with specific dispossession cases. 17840  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  6  MR.  WILLMS  7  8  THE  COURT:  9  MR.  WILLMS  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  MR.  WILLMS  43  44  45  MR.  ADAMS:  46  47  MR.  WILLMS  All right.  Maybe we could turn -- you could deal at  page 92 of your report to Jean Baptiste.  Maybe we  could turn to that?  I'm not absolutely sure it is Jean Baptiste, but it  may well be.  :  Well, could Volume 8 of the document book be put to  the witness, please?  Volume 8?  Volume 8, my lord, and if you could please turn to tab  547 of Volume 8, and you'll see at tab 547 a letter  from Loring to Ditchburn dated March 20th, 1920?  Yes.  And Loring starts off:  "I have to acknowledge the receipt of your  letter, dated the 26th ultimo, stating that  from a Mr. McTavish of Victoria the owner of  the...", I believe it's the north one-half,  "...of lot 882, Cassiar Land District, you  had been informed that it were occupied by  an Indian of the name of Jean Baptiste and  expressing the wish to be informed whether  this Indian really occupied this land before  it became alienated, etc."  And then you'll see there is a discussion  regarding the lot and the information of what Jean  Baptiste ahs on it, and you'll see at the very end  Loring in the last paragraph says:  "Moreover, I here beg to add that Jean  Baptiste has a wife and five children, and  claims to have been on the said land for the  last twenty-one years."  Now, are you aware of prescriptive rights in  respect of unalienated land?  Prescriptive right?  I'm not quite --  Let's put it this way.  Are you --  Can you clarify "prescriptive" to me?  :  Are you aware of the significance of being on  someone else's property for 20 years or more in  respect of the land law at the time?  Well, my lord is my friend asking the witness for a  legal opinion on the land law at the time?  :  No, no. 17841  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 THE COURT:  He's just asking him if he's aware of any such law.  2 THE WITNESS:   No.  3 MR. ADAMS:  The question was the significance, and I took that  4 to be legal significance.  5 MR. WILLMS:  6 Q   Well, let me break it down.  Are you aware of the --  7 any land law at the time respecting being on privately  8 owned property, that is, property owned by another for  9 more than 20 years?  10 A   I know that there were disputes about the length of  11 time that a number of the Wet'suwet'en had been at  12 particular locations, and this seems to be an example  13 of that kind of a dispute.  They were resolved  14 variously.  I'm not sure if that's what you're  15 referring to.  16 Q   I take that as you don't know whether there was  17 anything in the land law at the time about 20 years on  18 someone else's property whether that would give Jean  19 Baptiste any rights against the owner of the property?  20 A  As I understand it, the disputes were about whether  21 the people were on the land before it was alienated.  22 That's the only point that I'm aware of in terms of  23 these disputes.  24 Q   Well, if you could turn to the next tab at 548, there  25 is a letter, and let me -- I can't see who -- of April  26 8th, 1920, a letter to Ditchburn, and let me just see  27 if I can -- you've identified the author, Harris, a  28 Mr. Harris at Bull & Mason.  This is a lawyer's  29 letter; correct?  30 A   Right.  Yes.  31 Q   And it's a lawyer's letter written on behalf of a Mr.  32 McTavish who claims that Mr. Baptiste is on his land;  33 you know that?  34 A   Right.  35 Q   Right.  And he says:  36  37 "My client, Mr. G.S. McTavish, has today  38 handed me your letter of the 7th with  39 enclosures re the above.  I note that the  40 Indian, Jean Baptiste, claims that he has  41 been on the said lands for the last  42 twenty-one years.  This is contrary to the  43 sworn statement of H. W. Heal, who has  44 resided in the Bulkley Valley since 1904,  45 and who knew the said Jean Baptiste, and who  46 has sworn to the fact that Jean Baptiste was  47 living with his brother David Francis at the 17842  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 time of Heal's arrival in the district, and  2 lived with said brother for some years  3 subsequent to that time, on Lot 794-A on the  4 shore of McClure Lake, and that to Heal's  5 personal knowledge, the said Jean Baptiste  6 did not live on Lot 882 prior to 1908.  7 In view of this, there is no doubt that  8 the Indian has no rights on the property  9 whatsoever; and I would ask you to have him  10 removed to a proper reserve immediately, so  11 that the sale of this land may be carried on  12 with."  13  14 Now, it appears from Loring's comments and then  15 from this letter that there's a lot of discussion  16 about 21 years.  Did you not think that that was  17 contextually significant?  18 A  Well, it's -- the point would be -- I didn't take the  19 21 specifically to be significant.  What I took to be  20 significant was the claim that Jean Baptiste has  21 resided there since before the land was alienated, and  22 as I recall, I'm not absolutely sure about this, I  23 don't have all of the details of these quite  24 complicated disputes in my head, there was some  25 question about the accuracy of Heal's claim, but I'm  26 not absolutely sure about that.  27 Q   All right.  In any event, I think as you've already  28 indicated, you're unaware of any land law and how 20  29 years factors into the land law of the time?  30 A  As I said, my understanding of it was that was  31 preceding the alienation of the land.  That seemed to  32 be the important point in those documents.  33 MR. WILLMS:   All right.  Now, could you turn in your report to  34 page 73, please, and could Volume 6 be put before the  35 witness?  36 THE COURT:  Did you say page 73 of the report?  37 MR. WILLMS:  38 Q   Page 73 of the report, my lord, Volume 6 of the  39 documents, and in -- it's tab 380, my lord.  You are  40 discussing in this paragraph, Dr. Galois, the Royal  41 Commission on Indian Affairs, and that is the  42 commission that is set out at tab 380?  43 A   These are the hearings --  44 Q   The hearings, yes.  45 A   -- of Fort Babine Agency, yes.  46 Q   And you said -- you say in that paragraph on page 73,  47 the very last line: 17843  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2 "A few specific complaints were registered  3 and all raised, in one form or another, the  4 question of Indian title."  5  6 And there were extracts of this tab read to you in  7 your evidence in chief, but I would like you to turn  8 to page 25.  Now, these are hand numbered in the upper  9 right-hand corner?  10 A   I should add that I was referring just to the Gitksan  11 not the Wet'suwet'en in that statement.  12 Q   Okay.  Turn to page 25 and you'll see at the top after  13 "The chairman explains to the assembled Indians to the  14 scope and powers of the commission", it's -- Chief Mac  15 Weeget addresses the commission.  Handwritten 25.  Are  16 you with me?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And Chief Weeget is Gitksan?  19 A   Yes, this is Andimoo.  20 Q   And I'll -- you've already had the first five lines  21 read by my friend so I won't reread that, but carrying  22 on --  23 A   Can I just read those lines, please?  24 Q   Sure.  All right.  Then the chief carries on by  25 saying:  26  27 "For all these troubles that we have here, it  28 is pretty heavy for us.  If you were  29 standing right out there and we tied your  30 hands behind your back, it is just about the  31 same way with us.  Our title is gone and our  32 land is gone."  33  34 And then just if you skip down, there's a  35 discussion of the old people and creeks and mountains,  36 but you will see about six lines up from the bottom of  37 the quote from the chief the sentence "As I am telling  38 you"?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q  41 "As I am telling you now, our title is gone  42 already - we have been asking very kindly  43 for a long time to get our land back for all  44 my people."  45  46 Now, is that particular discussion contextually  47 significant in appreciating what you mean by question 17844  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 of Indian title?  2 A  Well, there are two points I think I would make in  3 terms of that, first of all, is the reference to the  4 petition in there of 1908 which we don't have any  5 stamped copy, but which there are indications as to  6 the contents.  7 Q   Sorry, where does Chief Weeget refer to the petition?  8 A   "I wish to hear about the petition that was made for  9 the last seven years."  Since 1915.  There he's  10 referring to the petition that was taken to Ottawa --  11 Q   Right.  12 A   -- by the Gitksan and a number of other chiefs from  13 various different Indian peoples of British  14 Columbia —  15 Q   Yes.  16 A   -- concerning the whole issue.  The other point here  17 is what exactly one means by title in this context.  I  18 mean --  19 Q   Well, I'm just asking you if it's significant.  I'm  20 not asking you to interpret what the chief means here  21 or tell me what the chief means.  22 A  Well —  23 Q   It's significant isn't it?  24 A   It's part of the context of Gitksan protests dealing  25 with the issue of title.  It's no more significant  26 than a considerable number of other documents.  27 Q   If you turn to page -- hand numbered 39 in the upper  28 right-hand corner, and this is a -- on this particular  29 page a question and answer between the commissioner  30 and Chief Spouk, S-p-o-u-k?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And he was a Gitksan chief?  33 A   Yes.  This is the Gitanmaax band.  34 Q   Yes.  And you'll see if you go down the questions and  35 answers the commissioner asks a question of the chief:  36 "Do you know how many people live on that reserve?"  37 and the answer from Chief Spouk is "What is the reason  38 you are asking me all these questions?  What I want is  39 to get my own land back again."  40 Now, is that statement contextually significant in  41 assessing what you mean by the question of Indian  42 title?  43 A   In the sense that it refers to land which has been  44 alienated without the agreement, I presume, of Chief  45 Spouk, and also again I would refer you to the  46 reference that he makes to the same petition of 1908.  47 Q   Now, perhaps you could turn to page 51 of this tab and 17845  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 this was in respect of the Wet'suwet'en, and --  2 A  Moricetown Band.  3 Q   Yes.  It's -- the top of the page says "Royal  4 Commission on Indian Affairs for the Province of  5 British Columbia meeting with the Moricetown Band  6 April 26th, 1915"?  7 A   Right.  Yes.  It's just that the number on my copy is  8 illegible.  9 Q   Right.  And my note of what you said about -- you said  10 there were differences between the Moricetown hearings  11 and the Gitksan hearings.  You said first, there is a  12 good deal of detailed -- good deal of detail about  13 specific grievances which is given in the -- there is  14 no reference to the overall issue of title, and a  15 third point is that part of the information is  16 provided not by an Indian, but by a white missionary,  17 and there you're referring to the fact that Father  18 Godfrey made the initial address?  19 A   Yes.  And I attempt to explain the reasons and the  20 significance for that.  21 Q   You did note though if you turn to handwritten 57,  22 after Godfrey had finished speaking, at the bottom,  23 the chief is called and sworn.  24  25 "Mr. Commissioner Macdowall:  You have heard the  26 address made by the Reverend Father on your  27 behalf - do you take that as being your own  28 address?  29 A   The priest he said right."  30  31 So is that -- was that contextually significant to  32 you, the statement by the chief there after the  33 Reverend made the address?  34 A  Well, it refers to the statement by one of the  35 Wet'suwet'en chiefs, the -- one of the reasons for  36 Godfrey making the speech is the absence of a  37 considerable number of the chiefs because of the lack  38 of warning that they were given about the date and  39 timing of the hearings.  40 Q   I'm just going to show you, Dr. Galois, an extract  41 from a cross-examination of you and this is an extract  42 respecting the cross-examination respecting Dewdney's  43 laying out Hazelton?  44 A   Right.  45 Q   And you'll see at the top of the page discussion of  46 1871 Dewdney surveying Hazelton, and if you turn down  47 to line 36, the question: 17846  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2 "Q   All right.  Well, I'm just trying to get --  3 I thought you said a few moments ago that  4 prior to the late 1800's, I don't know, I  5 can't remember whether it was 1897 or 1898,  6 there wasn't any interference with this  7 exclusive right -- claim to hunt, fish and  8 gather fruit.  And I'm suggesting to you  9 that when Dewdney went in and laid out the  10 townsite of Hazelton and laid out the  11 reserve and laid out some pre-emptions, that  12 that must have interfered with that?"  13  14 And your answer was:  15  16 "A  Well, what I've been trying to suggest is  17 that this was something which existed on  18 paper rather than had any great significance  19 as far as I can determine, on the ground."  20  21 Now, I'm showing you a letter of the 22nd of  22 February, 1871, from the Colonial Secretary Pearce to  23 Dewdney, and have you -- did you recall seeing this  24 letter in your review of the historical record?  25 A   I'm not sure.  I think I better read it.  26 Q   All right.  You'll see at the beginning:  27  28 "The recent discoveries of gold on the  29 Omineca and other rivers in the vicinity,  30 render it desirable that a Pack Trail with  31 proper bridges, etc., should be constructed  32 from a point near the Forks of the Skeena,  33 running in an Easterly direction to the  34 North end of Babine Lake, crossing the  35 Babine River at this point and thence in a  36 North-easterly direction to Tatlah Landing  37 or if practicable to a point at the North  38 end of Tatlah Lake near the Bulkley House;  39 and from this point in a north-easterly  40 direction to Hogem," H-o-g-e-m, " and from  41 thence to Germansen Creek."  42  43 And you recognize the forks of the Skeena being  44 forks of the Skeena-Bulkley; that's what that was  45 called?  46 A   Yes.  It was not named Hazelton until after Dewdney's  47 visit. 17847  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   Now, on the second page of the instructions from  2 Pearce to Dewdney --  3 A   Can I just finish reading through?  4 Q   Well, I'd just like to put this extract to you and  5 then you can certainly read whatever you want before  6 you answer the question, but you'll see just above the  7 three-hole punch, the lowest three-hole punch, Dewdney  8 is instructed:  9  10 "You will lay out roughly or post notices on  11 all lands occupied or claimed by the Indians  12 in the country through which your  13 exploration may lead you and take such notes  14 of them as will enable you to lay them down  15 roughly on your plan."  16  17 All right.  Now, my question to you is would an  18 instruction like this -- is this document contextually  19 significant when you consider what Dewdney was doing  20 at Hazelton in 1871 in the historical sense?  21 A   Yes.  These are the instructions that, as you say,  22 that Dewdney was given.  My point, and I refer to this  23 in the document that I correctly identified yesterday  24 morning, was in terms of the report by Mr. MacDougall  25 of the Hudson's Bay Company about the Hudson's Bay  26 Post at Hazelton, and the lack of pre-emptions and  27 survey lines in that point in 1890.  And I can't  28 remember the exact wording, but I think it is a  29 document that is available and so that whatever the  30 significance of Dewdney's actions, it did not persist  31 on the ground or in terms, as I understand it, of the  32 reserves -- the Indian reserves of the Department of  33 Indian Affairs because when it came to establish  34 Indian reserves under the Department of Indian Affairs  35 the Gitanmaax reserves is indicated as being allotted  36 by O'Reilly in 1891, and I don't think there's any  37 reference to a preceding Indian reserve.  38 MR. WILLMS:   Exhibit — can this be 1033-A-12, my lord?  3 9    THE COURT:  12?  40    MR. WILLMS:  Twelve.  41  42 (EXHIBIT 1033-A-12: Letter dated February 22nd, 1871  43 from Pearce to Dewdney)  44  45 THE COURT:  Who did you say is the author of this?  46 MR. WILLMS:  The author is the Colonial Secretary Pearce,  47 P-e-a-r-c-e, and the recipient is Dewdney. 17848  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  All right.  We'll take the morning  2 adjournment.  Thank you.  3 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  This court stands adjourned for  4 a short recess.  5  6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR MORNING RECESS)  7  8 I hereby certify the foregoing to  9 be a true and accurate transcript  10 of the proceedings herein to the  11 best of my skill and ability.  12  13  14 Tanita S. French  15 Official Reporter  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 17849  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO THE MORNING BREAK)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Willms.  5 MR. WILLMS:  6 Q   My lord.  Just to finish up, Dr. Galois, with Dewdney  7 and the town site of Hazelton, I'm showing you a  8 correspondence, and the first part of the  9 correspondence is a letter of May 20th, 1871, from  10 Dewdney to Pearce written, as you can see from the  11 first page, from the forks of Skeena River.  Did you  12 review this document or see this document in your  13 review of the historical record?  14 A   Yes, I have done.  15 MR. WILLMS:  Okay.  You'll see, if you turn to the third page of  16 this letter from Dewdney to Pearce -- and he's  17 speaking from the forks of the Skeena River.  He's  18 speaking from Hazelton.  19 THE COURT:  You've lost me Mr. — oh, this new one.  20 MR. WILLMS:  The new one, my lord.  21 THE COURT:  Yes, I have it.  22 MR. WILLMS:  23 Q   This is Dewdney telling Pearce on May 20th, 1871, what  24 he's done in accordance with the instructions.  And I  25 am now on the third page, my lord.  And you'll see the  26 paragraph:  27  28 "Since my arrival here I have selected a  29 starting point for the trail, and reserved for  30 the government all the lands situated between  31 the Agwilgate River and the lower line of a  32 Pre-emption taken up by" --  33  34 is that superintendent?  35 A  Messrs.  36 Q   Messrs Mitchell and Faron.  37 A   Faron.  F-a-r-r-o-n.  38 Q   o-n.  39  40 "A portion of it I have reserved as a town site,  41 the remainder as an Indian Reserve for a tribe  42 called the Kit-En-Macs.  43 On the proposed Town site I posted a notice  44 (a copy of which I enclose) by it you will see  45 that I have staked off a few lots, and should  46 you think it advisable to lay out a small Town  47 site here before I return, I should be obliged 17850  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 if you would forward me the necessary  2 instructions.  The work would not take more  3 than a week, as the ground is open and free  4 from any underbrush.  5 Three lots have been taken, one by Messrs  6 Cunningham & Hankin, one by a Mr." --  7  8 is that Rees, R-e-e-s?  9 A   I would have thought it would be Reid.  10 Q   Or Reid.  11  12 "...& one by William Moore.  And buildings will  13 be put up at once.  14 I trust you will agree with me that it is  15 fortunate I have been enabled to reserve a  16 small tract for a Town site.  As is invariably  17 the case all the land that was thought to be  18 open for Pre-emption, was taken up in the  19 vicinity of the supposed starting point, and  20 this would not have remained unoccupied long --  21 not remained unoccupied, had not the parties  22 who had settled above the Reserve been of the  23 opinion that an Indian Reservation existed from  24 the Mouth of the Agwilgate River two miles  25 upstream."  26  27 Just pausing there, that certainly is contextually  28 significant to the issue of not only Indian reserves  29 in the area, but also exploitation of resources, isn't  30 it?  31 A   I'm not quite sure in terms of exploitation of  32 resources.  33 Q   Well, I'm talking about the pre-emption of land and  34 the interference with the exploitation of resources on  35 that pre-empted land.  Isn't --  36 A   One of the points --  37 Q   -- that contextually significant?  38 A  Well, the other part of the context is that none of  39 the pre-emptions were carried through, as I understand  40 it.  41 Q   Oh, sorry, as you understand it.  Thank you.  Now, if  42 you could turn to the last page of this document,  43 we'll just deal with what the document says.  You'll  44 see on the very last page there is Pearce's signature,  45 the colonial secretary, in the middle of the page at  46 the bottom, and it appears -- I can't tell if that's  47 10 June '71.  But he says this: 17851  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  MR. WILLMS:  Q  "Submitted for His Excellency's information.  With regard to the Town site, I am quite  ignorant what Instructions may have been given  to Mr. O'Reilly on this point.  I instructed  Mr. Dewdney a long time before to secure any  location that appeared to him suitable for a  Town site, as well as to Reserve all Lands  occupied by Indians and post up notices" --  .and to post up notices..."  "...and to post up notices that such Lands were  Reserved for them.  It would be advisable, I  think to lay out a few lots, which might be  leased for the present, & sold by auction at a  future time."  You'll see that that's a transmission from Pearce to  the governor.  It's to His Excellency.  Correct?  A   Yes.  Q   Yes.  And you'll see --  A   Right.  Q   -- immediately below Pearce's signature it says:  "I concur in Mr. Pearce's opinion.  If I  remember rightly, there were no instructions  given to Mr. O'Reilly respecting a Town site."  And that -- you recognize those initials as Governor  Musgrave's?  A  Well, I didn't.  Q   You don't.  Oh.  Is that not something that you paid  attention to, the initials of the governor at the  time?  A   I think that's probably reasonable to assume, that  that's what they are, yes.  Q   Yes.  And then you'll see just immediately under that:  "Forwarded for the information of Mr. Pearce, no  special instructions were given to Mr.  O'Reilly, respecting a reservation of a town  site at Skeena."  So I'm going to suggest to you again that it is  contextually very significant that Dewdney was  instructed by the colonial secretary to go up and lay 17852  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 out a town site and reserve land for Indians and he  2 did that?  3 A   He did that, but my point again, if one looks at the  4 map which is attached to this document, one sees that  5 neither the reserve nor the town site survived as in  6 the form that they are there mapped.  7 Q   Sorry, the town site -- there is no reserve at the  8 forks of the Skeena?  9 A   There is a reserve which is mapped there.  However,  10 neither that -- neither the boundaries of that reserve  11 as marked there nor the town site as marked to my  12 understanding survived in the form that they're there  13 indicated.  14 Q   To your understanding.  Thank you.  15 A  And one --  16 Q   Can this be 1033-13, my lord?  17 A   One can look at other documents to substantiate that.  18 MR. WILLMS:  Yes.  Well, I'm sure your counsel will be able to  19 refer to all of those.  20  21 (EXHIBIT 1033A-13 - TAB 13, LETTER DATED MAY 20, 1871,  22 FROM DEWDNEY TO PEARCE)  23  24 THE COURT:  Dr. Galois —  25 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  26 THE COURT:  -- what do you understand them to be talking about  27 here when they talk about the Agwilgate, capital A,  28 River?  29 THE WITNESS:  That's the Bulkley, your honour.  30 THE COURT:  That's the Bulkley?  31 THE WITNESS:  It's sometimes called the Agwilgate, and it's  32 sometimes called the Watsonqua.  33 THE COURT:  All right.  34 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, I have no further questions.  35 THE COURT:  I shouldn't stop you if that's what you're going to  36 say.  I wouldn't want to interrupt you.  37 MR. WILLMS:  Please don't let me interrupt you, my lord.  38 THE COURT:  Please.  39 MR. WILLMS:  No, I was just going to say, my lord, that I have  40 no further questions.  I do want to point out that  41 there is a document that we marked, 1033-15, which is  42 a letter from Loring to Vowell of September 30th,  43 1904, which apparently I was the only person who was  44 able to read, and your lordship suggested that I  45 should provide a legible copy.  4 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  47 MR. WILLMS:  And we will attempt to do that. 17853  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 THE COURT:  All right.  2 MR. WILLMS:  If we can't do that and my friends don't agree that  3 what I read out is what the document says, I suppose  4 we'll have to deal with that later.  5 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you, Mr. Willms.  I think Madam  6 Reporter wanted a name or the spelling.  Agwilgate  7 looks like A-g-w-i-1-g-a-t-e.  And could someone else  8 spell Watsonqua?  9 THE WITNESS:  W-a-t-s-o-n-q-u-a.  That's one version.  I'm not  10 sure it's the authoritative version.  11 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Macaulay.  12  13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACAULAY:  14 Q   Witness, you know that Reverend Tomlinson was an  15 independent missionary near Kitwanga during the 1880s?  16 A   He established a mission at Meanskinisht I think  17 initially in 1888.  He had previously been a  18 missionary for the Church Missionary Society, which  19 organization I believe he quit at sometime preceding  20 1888.  I'm not sure of the exact date offhand.  21 Q   He was a follower of Duncan?  22 A   They were both members of the Church Missionary  23 Society.  24 Q   Oh, yes, but other people, such as Collinson, were  25 also members of the Church Missionary Society?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   But there was a Duncan faction, wasn't there?  28 A   He was closely associated with William Duncan, yes.  2 9 And —  30 Q   And when Duncan left for Alaska, he left for -- to  31 establish an independent mission on the Skeena?  32 A   To the best of my recollection, Tomlinson quit the  33 Church Missionary Society sometime prior to that.  34 Q   Yes.  35 A   I believe it had something to do with his being  36 ordered to abandon the mission that he undertook for  37 the Church Missionary Society at Ankatlas.  That  38 mission was closed in 1883.  39 THE COURT:  I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Macaulay, but I  40 think we have to get a spelling for the place where  41 the mission was established in 1888.  42 MR. MACAULAY:  Meanskinisht.  43 THE COURT:  I'm sure Madam Reporter needs a spelling.  44 THE WITNESS:  Do you wish me to —  4 5 MR. MACAULAY:  46 Q   You can have a try, Dr. Galois.  47 A  M-e-a-n-s — 17854  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, M-e-a-n?  2 THE WITNESS:  a-n.  — s-k-i-n-i-s-h-t.  It would be nice to see  3 that down.  I'm not sure that --  4 THE COURT:  Well, we'll all spell it the same way.  Now, the  5 other spelling, the other word you gave us.  6 MR. MACAULAY:  7 Q   Ankatlas.  8 A  Ankatlas.  9 THE COURT:  Yes  10 THE WITNESS:  A-n-k-a-t-1-a-s.  11 THE COURT:  Thank you.  12 THE WITNESS:  And that's about seven miles north of Kispiox.  13 MR. MACAULAY:  14 Q   So that by 1884 or 1885 he was an independent?  15 A   He had left the Church Missionary Society somewhere in  16 there, and he remained primarily on the northwest  17 coast.  He went back to England one time.  I think  18 that was before 1883.  Went down to Victoria once or  19 twice.  20 Q   And his son was a Methodist missionary?  21 A   His son subsequently became a Methodist missionary.  22 He, I believe, was in 1919 the Methodist missionary at  23 Kispiox.  I'm not sure when he took up that appoint-  24 ment, but I have seen a letter that indicates that he  25 was at Kispiox at that date.  26 MR. MACAULAY:  Now, have you in your researches looked at a  27 letter from Magistrate Fitzstubbs to the Attorney-  28 General dated April 23rd, 1889?  Perhaps you could  29 show the witness.  Tab 21.  My lord, I believe my  30 friend Mr. Willms had made brief reference to this  31 letter.  I've made a transcription, which I hope is  32 reasonably accurate.  The letter itself is fairly  33 legible.  It just goes faster with a transcription.  34 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Shall we call this book 1034?  35 MR. MACAULAY:  1034, if your lordship pleases.  Would that be  36 1034-1?  37 THE COURT:  Oh, wait a minute.  Maybe we have a 1034.  38 THE REGISTRAR:  The numerical number I think is 1059.  3 9 THE COURT:  Oh.  4 0 MR. MACAULAY:  I'm happy with any number.  41 THE COURT:  How do we get from 1033 so quickly up to 1059?  42 THE REGISTRAR:  Well, these were put in —  4 3 THE COURT:  Yes.  44 THE REGISTRAR:  — way back in the direct.  45 THE COURT:  Oh, yes, of course.  46 THE REGISTRAR:  All of this has been put in since.  47 THE COURT:  This is an interrupted witness.  That's the 17855  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 explanation.  So the next number will be 10 --  2 THE REGISTRAR:  1059.  3 MR. MACAULAY:  1059.  4 THE COURT:  Thank you.  5 MR. MACAULAY:  If that could be dash 1, tab 1.  6 THE COURT:  Yes.  7  8 (EXHIBIT 1059-1 - TAB 1, EXTRACT FROM AGCAN DOCUMENT NO.  9 12380, LETTER DATED APRIL 23, 1889)  10  11 MR. MACAULAY:  12 Q   Have you seen that letter before?  13 A   Yes, I have.  14 Q   And can I draw your attention to page 2, either of the  15 transcript or the original?  16 A   The pagination is the same?  17 Q   The pagination's the same.  At the bottom where the  18 author says:  19  20 "In the interval between that date..."  21  22 A  What date?  23 MR. MACAULAY:  And he's referring to the end of last year, that  24 is, the end of 1888, and the writing of the letter.  25  26 "In the interval between that date and the  27 present their behavior has been commendable,  28 and I think if not influenced by baleful  29 teaching they will gradually subside into  30 observance of and respect for law, though at  31 present they view its ascendancy with jealousy  32 and dislike."  33  34 And then over the page:  35  36 "By baleful teaching mean the lessons of  37 disloyalty and discontent inculcated by the  38 Methodist teachers, chiefly native on the  39 river, who seem to furnish a Mission other than  40 religious and to desire to fan a race antipathy  41 into race hatred.  These teachers are reported  42 to be actuated by a feeling inimical to the  43 Government, who, they instruct the Indians,  44 will deal unfairly and harshly by them in the  45 matter of the land."  46  47 And then farther down on page 3: 17856  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 "The knowledge upon which the above observations  2 are founded came to me after a revival meeting  3 under the direction of a native missionary Mr.  4 Pierce held in this town towards the end of  5 last January, when the Government Officials and  6 whites were publicly vilified."  7  8 And then the letter has a number of enclosures, as  9 you will see, and we haven't got a transcription for  10 them, but they're easy to read.  My lord, I'm  11 directing the witness' attention to the first  12 enclosure, which is headed "At a meeting under the  13 direction held in Kitta Moldoh's house at Hazelton on  14 or about the 19th of January, 1889.  The following is  15 the substance of the addresses by the several speakers  16 named."  And then the first speaker said:  17  18 "My brothers and sisters I am very glad to meet  19 you once more this evening to speak to you.  2 0 Every white man who comes here is paid to come  21 or comes to make money, but we have not come  22 for money."  23  24 And then a little further down the page:  25  26 "Every store keeper" --  27  2 8 THE COURT:  Just a moment.  How far down the page?  29 MR. MACAULAY:  Middle of the page, my lord.  30  31 "Every store keeper here tries to get as much as  32 they can out of you and cheat you."  33  34 And then -- and the next statement I want to draw your  35 attention to is that of Jack Cade.  There's one by  36 Edward Sexsmith, and here's Jack Cade.  37 THE COURT:  Not the same Jack Cade?  38 MR. MACAULAY:  Not the same Jack Cade.  39 THE COURT:  I hope not.  40 MR. MACAULAY:  At the bottom of the — that page where he says:  41  42 "It is the white man's fault that this village  43 cannot be made Christian.  I know it from  44 experience.  When I used to work in the mines  45 they have often said to me there is no Jesus,  46 no God, and they do everything that is bad and  47 teach it to us.  Young men and women have 17857  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 nothing to do with them.  Do not go with them  2 or work for them."  3  4 And then further along:  5  6 "...they are nothing but bearded devils, do not  7 trust any white man who comes here unless he is  8 a teacher.  Have nothing to do with the whites,  9 they all mislead you.  Even the judge here."  10  11 THE COURT:  "...the judge is here" —  12 MR. MACAULAY:  "...the judge is here" —  13 THE COURT:  — "to deceive you."  14 MR. MACAULAY:  — "to deceive you."  15 And then the next one, Big Louie.  This is a  16 statement -- the same Big Louie, my lord.  This is a  17 statement following the event.  It's not one of the  18 statements, but it's still an enclosure with this  19 letter.  Part way down the page he says:  20  21 "Having the Crown I thought I should also join  22 the Church as I considered they go together.  23 Mr. Pearce answered he would receive me, but  24 that the Crown I have carried no honor with  25 it."  26  27 And then in the middle of the page:  28  29 "...God's word was stronger than the law."  30  31 And further on, and I quote again:  32  33 "He said if I came to them I must put the Crown  34 in my left hand, it is degrading, and God's  35 word in my right hand."  36  37 And over the page:  38  39 "At another meeting Mr. Pearce said we were to  40 do nothing that the whole people did -- that  41 the white people did, that they were a bad race  42 of people, that they did not obey God's law in  43 the least."  44  45 And finally -- oh, well, I've got a couple more --  46 Peter John, the statement of Peter John, in which he  47 recounts that about Christmas of 1888, and I quote 1785?  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  "Pearce came into my house and frantically  called upon me to flee this town where all was  darkness and corruption and danger from the  presence of the whites."  At the bottom:  "Pearce came only to warn me against the  Whites."  And then finally, the statement of Esther, Esther  Beresford, witnessed by Margaret Hankin, the  interpreter, in which she says:  "The cause of all the calamities here is the  white race.  They teach you all that is bad,  and blind you, keep you in ignorance of what is  good."  And:  "They have caused the death of your children.  So long as the whites" --  THE COURT:  I think that's "women," isn't it?  THE WITNESS:  "...many of your women, some daughters of chiefs."  MR. MACAULAY:  No, no, I'm reading the following sentence, my  lord.  "They have caused the death of your children."  THE COURT:  Oh, yes, yes.  You're quite right.  MR. MACAULAY:  Q  "So long as the whites are here and you have  anything to do with them you will never become  as we are.  It is all through the white race  that you are bad."  You've seen that letter and those statements before,  have you?  A   I think so.  If I have, at some time ago.  And I would  like, I think, to read through the extracts in full,  the statements in full --  Q   All right. 17859  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A   -- if I may.  2 Q   You mean before you make any answer?  3 A   To any questions of substance, yes.  4 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, perhaps you can do that at the adjournment.  5 And I'll draw your attention to another letter.  This  6 is -- my lord, it's a letter from Fitzstubbs to the  7 Attorney-General, who he addresses as "Dear Davie,"  8 which was the Attorney-General's last name.  It's July  9 24th, 1889, a few months later.  10 THE COURT:  This is Fitzstubbs to Davie?  11 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes, my lord.  So was the earlier one, but the  12 earlier one was a more formal dispatch.  And I'll draw  13 your attention to page 2 of either the transcript or  14 the original.  15 THE COURT:  Just a moment, please, Mr. Macaulay.  16 MR. MACAULAY:  And could that be marked tab 2, my lord?  17 THE COURT:  Yes.  18  19 (EXHIBIT 1059-2 - TAB 2, LETTER FROM N. FITZSTUBBS TO  20 DAVIE)  21  22 THE COURT:  And you want to read page 2?  23 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes, my lord, top of the page.  24 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  2 5 MR. MACAULAY:  26 Q   Where he says:  27  28 "As an instance of the insidious manner in which  29 it is their wont to excite the minds of the  30 people and keep them in a ferment of suspicion  31 and anxiety, two nights ago arrived a Methodist  32 crew, and one of its members was at once  33 despatched to Heguilget (4 miles) to report  34 that two additional canneries are in course of  35 construction above the mouth of the river and,  36 in all probability not a salmon; next year  37 would be permitted to ascend the Skeena.  As  38 this year there has been no spring run and the  39 second one up to now only very light, the  40 prospect of a salmon failure thus held up to  41 them is neither cheering nor calculated to  42 induce cordial feelings towards ourselves."  43  44 And then he goes on to recite that he had to deal with  45 a deputation of very worried Indians.  Have you seen  46 that letter before?  47 A   Do you know which file it is from? 17860  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   Oh, you mean the -- which RG10 number?  2 A   Or whereabouts, yeah.  I mean, that's the easiest way  3 for me to have some sense of documents and what there  4 are.  There are so many that it's difficult to be  5 certain about particular documents.  And the previous  6 one is a file that I have examined, but this one  7 doesn't have any such indication.  8 Q   Well, I'm sure we can find out at the adjournment if  9 that's makes any difference to you.  10 A  Well, it would.  I can't recall this particular  11 document from the contents.  I have examined a number  12 of Fitzstubbs' letters from Hazelton, and I have  13 examined files from the PABC collection, the GR429,  14 but I'm not sure about this one.  15 Q   Well, it would appear from those letters, wouldn't it,  16 that the missionaries were stirring up a good deal of  17 mischief in and around Hazelton in 1888, '89?  18 A  Well, again, I would like to read through these to  19 assure myself of the context, to have these events in  20 full.  21 Q   And you did tell his lordship again this morning,  22 didn't you, that it was fashionable for whites to  23 blame things on missionaries, to blame Indian protests  24 on missionaries?  25 A   That was certainly very common.  It's there contained  26 in a number -- in a variety of different documents,  27 both official and otherwise.  It's contained within  28 the newspapers.  And I should add equally too that  29 there are responses by missionaries denying and  30 refuting such accusations.  31 Q   Well, I draw your attention to this about the  32 statements -- this is the statements enclosed with the  33 letter that you had seen -- that these statements were  34 made -- were translated by Margaret Hankin, and you've  35 heard of her?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And Margaret Hankin was the -- was a Tsimshian?  38 A   No.  39 Q   What was she then?  4 0 A   She was the daughter of Donald McAuley, who was a  41 Hudson's Bay employee, and I believe a Coast Tsimshian  42 woman, so she was a half breed.  I'm not sure where  43 she was raised, which culture she was raised in.  44 Q   Well, whatever culture she was raised in, she  45 understood the Tsimshian or the Gitksan language?  46 A   She was employed as a translator on a number of  47 occasions from 1888 and after. 17861  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   That doesn't answer my question though.  Are you  2 satisfied that she understood the Gitksan language?  3 A   I'm really not in a position to evaluate that.  I know  4 that she was employed as an interpreter.  5 Q   Do you -- well, you're not in a position to challenge  6 her translations?  7 A   I'm not in a position to judge.  All I can say is that  8 I know that she was employed as -- as an interpreter,  9 both by Fitzstubbs and later by her second husband,  10 Richard Loring, for the Department of Indian Affairs.  11 I assume that she had the familiarity with the Gitksan  12 language.  She spent some time there amongst the  13 Gitksan people.  How accurate she was, I'm not in a  14 position to judge.  15 Q   She was a translator of the proceedings in August,  16 1888 --  17 A   She was.  18 Q   -- when all the chiefs met with Roycraft and  19 Fitzstubbs?  20 A   Yes, she was.  21 Q   Now, if the missionaries were indeed saying that every  22 storekeeper was here to cheat the Indians, that would  23 stir up a certain amount of trouble, wouldn't it?  24 A  Well, that might depend on what the Indians'  25 perceptions of that statement was.  If in fact that  26 could be seen to be the truth, then they might  27 justifiably be somewhat angry.  I mean, if it was a  28 totally outrageous statement and had no relevance to  29 their lives, I suspect it would probably have been  30 justifiably ignored.  31 Q   Do you think it's likely the Indians would have  32 ignored it?  33 A  Well, that, as I said, depended upon the -- could  34 depend very much upon how reasonable the statement --  35 they viewed the statement to be and how far it related  36 to their own experiences.  And one must remember that  37 these incidents are taking place very shortly after a  38 fairly dramatic incident, and that is very much part  39 of the context here.  40 Q   What leads you to believe that these statements only  41 started after the dramatic incident you're talking  42 about?  This is the first time they're recorded, isn't  43 it?  44 A  Well, do you have any evidence to suggest that they  45 precede this?  46 Q   We'll look after that.  And if they were told that the  47 white men were bearded devils in their church 17862  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 gatherings, what effect is that likely to have?  2 A   It's difficult to say.  3 Q   And if they're told not to trust any white man unless  4 he's a teacher, isn't that likely to cause mischief?  5 A  Well, again, I mean, one has to sort of go back to  6 what their experiences were.  I mean, the Indians were  7 perfectly capable, it would seem to me, of judging  8 statements.  9 Q   And if they're told that the judge was here to deceive  10 them, what effect would that have?  11 A  Well, I'm not sure what effect it would have.  It's  12 part of, well, a situation where there was a good deal  13 of uncertainty and I suspect a good deal of unpleasant  14 memories.  15 Q   Of deceit by a judge?  16 A  Well, I don't know deceit by a judge.  I'm not sure  17 what the Gitksan perception of the concept of a judge  18 at this point in time would be.  19 Q   Well, at the very least the missionaries were playing  20 on the Indians' susceptibilities and distrust, weren't  21 they?  22 A  Well, if there was a distrust that existed beforehand,  23 one could perhaps agree with that.  24 Q   Well, what had happened immediately beforehand was  25 that the Indians had been told that their old law of  26 reciprocal killing was at an end?  27 A   That was the statement I believe that Fitzstubbs made,  28 yes.  29 Q   Well, it wasn't just a statement.  Indians were being  30 taken down the river and tried for reciprocal  31 killings?  32 A   One Indian was, I believe.  33 Q   You're talking -- there was Haatq?  34 A   Haatq was, yes.  35 Q   And how about the Kisgegas reciprocal killings that  36 happened at the same time?  37 A   I think he died shortly after he was arrested, brought  38 in by -- well, he was coming in on his own.  He was  39 nearly dead at the time.  Louie accompanied him I  40 believe as far as Hazelton, but I don't think he went  41 any further.  I'm not sure about that.  42 Q   You mean he died before trial?  43 A  Well, I'm not quite sure what the sequence of events  44 was after him.  I believe another document by Loring  45 from 1889, when he arrived, say that he was coming --  46 he was coming in of his own accord, but I'm not sure  47 about the details on that now. 17863  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   To be taken down the Skeena River to be tried?  2 A   I don't know.  I couldn't say.  3 Q   And it appears also from Big Louie's statement that  4 Mr. Pearce was doing what he could to prevent chiefs  5 of Kispiox from taking the Crown?  6 A  Mr. Pearce was.  Yes.  One must remember that Big  7 Louie was not a disinterested party in this situation  8 at the time.  9 Q   Well —  10 A   That seems to be his testimony.  And there's no doubt  11 that in the later incident the -- most of the chiefs  12 at Kispiox refused to accept the badge or the Crown  13 and that in fact Big Louie did and then subsequently  14 went around opposing the application of the -- the  15 potlatch prohibition.  16 Q   And is it your opinion, having read these  17 statements --  18 A   I haven't read these statements.  19 Q   So you can't give your opinion until you've read them?  20 A  Well, as I said before, I think I would like to have  21 read through those again to refresh myself.  It's some  22 time since I looked at one document, and I'm not sure  23 that I've seen the other one.  24 Q   Well, I'll refer you to a document that you will have  25 seen many times.  My lord, I'm showing the witness an  26 excerpt from the Metlakatlah Inquiry of 1884, that is,  27 the report of the commissioners.  The report includes  28 the evidence that was heard by the commissioners as  29 well as the report itself.  And I'm drawing the  30 witness' attention first to page iv, Roman numerals.  31 It's the evidence of a Mr. White.  It's pages iv and  32 v.  33 A   Could you tell me who Mr. White was?  34 MR. MACAULAY:  Mr. White was then a miner at Lome Creek or had  35 been.  36 My lord, could that be tab 3?  37  38 (EXHIBIT 1059-3 - TAB 3, EXCERPT FROM METLAKATLAH  39 COMMISSION)  40  41 MR. MACAULAY:  42 Q   Now, page iv shows who's giving the evidence.  He was  43 sworn.  And by this time he identifies himself as  44 manager of a cannery at Inverness.  45 A   Okay.  4 6 Q   And he's giving evidence about the troubles at  47 Metlakatlah.  Now, my lord, if I said that Mr. White 17864  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 was a miner at Lome Creek, I'm not certain of that.  2 His then occupation appears from the transcript.  And  3 at page v, after describing some of the incidents  4 involving the quarrel at Metlakatlah, he says of  5 Duncan, Mr. Duncan -- this would be about a third of  6 the way down the page towards the end of the first  7 paragraph of evidence.  8  9 "He further went on to say that there were only  10 three ways of acquiring property - by purchase,  11 by finding it" --  12  13 A   Sorry, I'm not with you.  14 THE COURT:  On page 5.  15 MR. MACAULAY:  5, yes.  16 THE WITNESS:  Oh, sorry.  17 THE COURT:  Two thirds of the way down that first long  18 paragraph, "He further went on to say," a new  19 sentence.  2 0    MR. MACAULAY:  21 Q  22 "He further went on to say..."  23  24 A   I've got it.  25 Q   And you can take it from the context that it's Duncan.  26  27 "...that there were only three ways of acquiring  28 property - by purchase, by finding it, or by  29 stealing it; that the Government certainly had  30 not purchased this land from the Indians,"  31  32 and there he's referring to the Metlakatlah,  33  34 "that they did not find it uninhabited; they did  35 not acquire it by right of conquest, so they  36 must have stolen it."  37  38 This is Mr. White's evidence of what he was told by  39 Duncan.  40 And then towards the bottom of the page he gives  41 what, in effect, was his opinion at the time in  42 response to a question by the Attorney-General.  He  43 says right about ten lines from the bottom:  44  45 "It is my belief that this land trouble being  46 agitated by the Indians of the Skeena River is  47 the outcome of the trouble at Metlakatlah. 17865  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 They threatened to drive the miners from the  2 gold diggings.  They talk of not being afraid  3 of soldiers, and give as their reason that,  4 referring to the disturbances in the United  5 States in which the Government had met  6 reverses, they say, why can't we do the same  7 thing?  One of the missionaries at Kitmangar,  8 Mr. Woods, has been posting notices for the  9 Indians on several creeks, telling the white  10 men that the creeks belonged to the Indians,  11 and warning them not to stay.  It is bringing  12 the white people and the Indians into  13 antagonism, by writing up these notices."  14  15 Now, you've read that, haven't you?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And have you seen documents, other documents relating  18 to Mr. Woods' notices?  19 A   Yes, I think there's a reference in the return to an  20 order of 1885, as I recall.  21 Q   Have you any reason to doubt the statement attributed  22 to Duncan?  23 A  Which statement?  24 Q   That the government didn't find the land uninhabited,  25 they didn't acquire it, they must have stolen it.  26 A  Well, that's somebody's interpretation of it.  27 Q   Do you not think --  28 A  Mr. White's interpretation of it.  29 Q   Yes.  Wasn't that Duncan's position after his quarrel  30 with the Church Missionary Society?  31 A  Well, I haven't made a close study of William Duncan  32 and what his position was.  33 Q   Well, we'll go to the next -- another portion of this  34 transcript, and for convenience I've -- before we go  35 to that, perhaps we can turn to a document, my lord.  36 This is a document in the Attorney-General's files.  37 Its PABC -- it's -- the cover page says "Lome Creek  38 Indian Affairs Statements by...White and Haptonstall."  39 Have you seen -- have you looked -- in your researches  40 have you turned up that document dated October 16th,  41 1884?  42 A   I don't think I've seen this one, no.  43 Q   Well, I can tell you it was in the --  4 4 A   I know.  45 Q   -- archives.  4 6 A   Right.  47 Q   It comes from the Attorney-General's department. 17866  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A   It's the document list.  It's the document collection  2 as opposed to the correspondence.  3 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  Now, this — the first component — the  4 first of these two men, Mr. Haptonstall, says -- he  5 identifies himself as being in the country about three  6 years.  My lord, I have a -- I've done a transcript of  7 these pages.  These pages are identified on the  8 transcript for your lordship's assistance and that of  9 the witness.  10 THE COURT:  Is the typewritten transcript intended to be  11 verbatim?  12 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes, my lord.  13 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  And this is a transcription of a  14 document, is this?  15 MR. MACAULAY:  Of this document.  16 THE COURT:  What is the document; do we know?  17 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, it's a statement of two men —  18 THE COURT:  I see.  19 MR. MACAULAY:  — in the files of the Attorney-General.  At one  20 time in the files of the Attorney-General, now in the  21 archives.  22 THE COURT:  Something that somebody comments or evidence or  23 something like that?  2 4 MR. MACAULAY:  That's right, my lord.  White eventually gave  25 evidence.  We've just seen some of his evidence.  2 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  2 7 MR. MACAULAY:  28 Q   I don't believe Haptonstall did.  29 And you haven't seen this before?  30 A   No, I haven't.  31 Q   Well, I am -- I draw -- first of all, he says he was  32 in the country about three years and that he was one  33 of the discoverers of Lome Creek on the Skeena when  34 he identifies where it is, and then he goes on to  35 identify the various Indian villages around Lome  36 Creek, including the Forks and Kitwanga.  And at the  37 bottom of the page he says, starting right at the  38 bottom:  39  40 "...the miners have got along well enough with  41 them,"  42  43 referring to the Indians, and then over the page to  44 the second page,  45  46 "but they have made threats to drive us off -  47 the Chief of Kitwongars told me they proposed 17867  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 to come and hold a council and they would know  2 what to do.  They claimed we were taking gold  3 out of their country that they had received  4 letters expressing surprise such a state of  5 things was allowed - Johnny Bryant  (Lome  6 Creek) has a woman who said these letters had  7 come from Metlakatla."  8  9 Now, the letters from Metlakatla, any letters that the  10 Indians had from Metlakatla would have come from  11 Tomlinson, wouldn't they, likely come from Tomlinson?  12 A  Well, he would be one -- one potential source, yes.  13 I -- but I -- I would think that there would be  14 Indians who could write at Metlakatla at this time.  15 Q   But the people who were writing at Metlakatla about  16 Lome Creek, there was only one person writing about  17 Lome Creek at Metlakatla at that time, wasn't there?  18 A   No, there were at least two Indians from Kitwanga who  19 spent the preceding year at Metlakatla, and I think  20 they -- I don't know what, if any, communication they  21 may have had, but they included -- there's a letter  22 from Denahap and Edward Stuart included in the return  23 to an order of 1885.  24 Q   About Lome Creek?  25 A   I can't remember the exact contents of that letter.  26 It's in one of the things.  One could look and see  27 exactly what it says.  28 Q   Were they written by them or for them?  29 A   This was one -- one letter.  It was written -- I can't  30 remember who it was written to any more.  My point  31 being that they could have also have communicated from  32 Metlakatla with Indians at Kitwanga.  33 Q   What were they doing at Metlakatla?  34 A   I'm not sure exactly.  They were associating in some  35 form or another with Duncan.  Whether they were going  36 to school there or -- or what exactly they were doing,  37 I'm not sure.  38 Q   They were on the Duncan side?  39 A  Well, they were at Metlakatla, and I -- well, what do  40 you mean exactly by the Duncan side?  41 Q   Well, there were two distinct parties daggers drawn in  42 Metlakatla, weren't there?  43 A   If you're talking about the opposition between Bishop  44 Ridley and William Duncan, yes.  45 Q   Or the magistrate and William Duncan?  46 A   I can't recall who the magistrate was at that time.  47 Q   Clifford. 1786?  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A   I don't —  2 Q   Or Elliott.  3 A   -- think he was the magistrate there.  Who was the  4 magistrate?  5 Q   Elliott.  6 A  Was he at Metlakatla at that time?  I can't recall.  I  7 haven't studied in detail who was at Metlakatla when.  8 MR. MACAULAY:  My lord, it's 12:30.  9 THE COURT:  All right.  Two o'clock then.  10 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until  11 two o'clock.  12  13 (EXHIBIT 1059-4 - TAB 4, STATEMENTS OF WHITE AND  14 HAPTONSTALL DATED OCTOBER 16, 18 84  15  16 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:30 P.M.)  17  18 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  19 a true and accurate transcript of the  20 proceedings herein to the best of my  21 skill and ability.  22  23  24  25 Leanna Smith  26 Official Reporter  27 United Reporting Service Ltd.  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 17869  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Macaulay.  5 MR. MACAULAY:  6 Q   Yes.  My lord, the witness asked about the source of  7 Fitzstubbs' letter of July 24th, 1889.  I believe that  8 was marked as tab 2, and we found it in the PABC GR  9 419 Box 48 file 18921.  10 A   Thank you.  11 Q   Oblique stroke 140.  That must be page 140?  12 A   Yes.  13 MR. MACAULAY:   I don't know if that last one, the last  14 document, Mr. Haptonstall's statement, has been marked  15 yet.  Could that be marked tab 4?  16 THE COURT:  I think it was.  17 MR. MACAULAY:  18 Q   It was, yes.  And well, it appears, witness, it  19 appears from Mr. Haptonstall's account that the chief  20 of the -- the head chief of one of the chiefs of  21 Kitwanga told the miners that they would have to get  22 out of Lome Creek; is that right?  23 A   I don't have that document in front of me at the  2 4 moment.  25 Q   Oh —  26 A   If I could do that.  27 Q   It's page -- the top of page 2 in the document?  28 A   Yes.  That conforms with some other documents which  29 indicate a similar set of events.  30 Q   And a complaint the residents of Kitwanga made was  31 that the miners were taking gold out of their  32 territory?  33 A   That's this person's interpretation of it.  The other  34 interpretation that was put forward was that they were  35 also damaging the hunting.  36 Q   And, yes, and it appears that the -- there were  37 letters from Metlakatla addressed to people in  38 Kitwanga on this subject according to this statement?  39 A   Yes, I see the statement now.  40 Q   Yes.  Now, if you turn to page 5 --  41 A   The fifth page?  42 Q   -- of the handwritten version?  43 A  With the transcript?  44 Q   Oh, well, the transcript, page 3.  It starts "J.E.  45 White".  4 6 A   Right.  47 Q   And according to J.E. White, and this is apparently 17870  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 the same J.E. -- Mr. White that we saw whose evidence  2 that we were looking at just a minute ago before the  3 inquiry, White said that Duncan told him and told Mr.  4 C. H. Clough, that's C-1-o-u-g-h, at Metlakatla about  5 ten days earlier there are only three ways of  6 acquiring property, by finding it, by purchase,  7 finding it or stealing it.  So he had given this  8 statement to the Attorney-General before he gave the  9 evidence at the inquiry?  10 A  Mr. Haptonstall?  11 Q   Beg your pardon, Mr. White had already --  12 A   Right, sorry, yes.  13 Q   And Mr. White goes on to say that these statements  14 were made in the presence of some Indians including  15 one named Edward Mather who understood English?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Now, if you will turn to the bottom of the sixth page  18 of the handwritten version or the -- towards the  19 bottom of page 3 of the transcript, you will see that  20 Haptonstall had a comment to add to White's -- well,  21 perhaps we should start with White's comment to this  22 effect:  23  24 "When the Metlakatla Indians come to work at  25 the canneries they are friendly and  26 peaceable, but when they get back to  27 Metlakatla strife arises as between Duncans  28 & the Bishops adherents."  29  30 You see that?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And that's the quarrel between Ridley and Duncan,  33 isn't it, that he's referring to and their adherents?  34 A  And it refers to the loss of church missionary land.  35 What I mean by that is the buildings and facilities  36 that Duncan's Metlakatla Indians had spent some  37 considerable time in building, invested time and money  38 in, and they lost control of that to a relatively  39 small group of Indians who were on the bishop's side,  40 as you said.  I should point out too that I think at  41 this point in time the bishop was also the magistrate.  42 Q   Well, wasn't Mr. Elliott the magistrate?  43 A   I was looking at the extract from the Metlakatla  44 commission that you put in.  45 Q   Yes.  46 A  And there's an indication there that the bishop was  47 the magistrate.  Okay.  "Mr. Duncan told me that he 17871  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 tried to stop them but he could not do it.  I went  2 back to the mission house and the bishop who was then  3 a magistrate read the Riot Act."  4 Q   Yes, I see that.  That's -- he read the Riot Act at  5 Metlakatla?  6 A   That's what I take it to mean.  Yes.  7 Q   Well, that followed a incident in which Duncan's  8 supporters, Indian supporters, had taken the window  9 frames and other fittings from the church and were  10 about to remove them?  11 A   It's part of the whole set of events that surrounded  12 their loss of that, what is it, two acres I think in  13 total, but also the facilities that they had spent I  14 guess in toll some what, I don't know, 18, 20 years  15 erecting at that point.  My point is, of course, that  16 the Indians had fairly direct experience of the loss  17 of land and facilities at this point in time.  18 Q   It also appears that according to White that Duncan  19 said that these Indians, referring to the --  20 presumably to the Metlakatla Indians, will not allow  21 one inch of their ground to be taken from them, they  22 will all be hanged first?  23 A  Well, it was a very tense and tumultuous situation.  I  24 mean, sometimes in those situations the rhetoric runs  25 ahead of wisdom.  26 Q   Perhaps we can turn to the next -- to another portion  27 of the Metlakatla inquiry report.  This, my lord, is  28 Mr. Tomlinson who's called to give evidence, the  2 9 Reverend Mr. Tomlinson.  That's at tab 8 at Roman  30 numeral 71, LXXI, and 72.  31 At page 71, witness, you will see this is the  32 proceedings of Saturday, November 22nd, 1884, and Mr.  33 Tomlinson, who must have been giving evidence earlier,  34 was recalled.  That's what appears at page 71, and  35 then over at the following page is some of his  36 evidence, and I draw your attention particularly to  37 the following.  Near the top of the page Mr. Davie  38 asks:  "What is the reason that the Indians would not  39 accept Mr. McKay?" Now, let's stop there.  Do you know  4 0 who Mr. McKay was?  41 A   He was the first Indian Agent appointed to serve the  42 North-west Coast Agency I believe in 1883 or 1884.  43 I'm not sure as to the exact date.  44 Q   And the Metlakatla Indians refused to acknowledge his  45 authority; is that right?  46 A   I forget the exact words that -- that's what it  47 amounted to.  I mean, he stayed there a relatively 17872  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 short time.  They refused to accept him certainly.  2 Q   And that was Mr. Duncan's followers who were -- who  3 refused to accept McKay?  4 A  As best as I can recall.  As I say, I've read this  5 through at some time some years ago.  I haven't made a  6 detailed study or analysis of these events.  I'm aware  7 of them in sort of general outline.  8 Q   And —  9 A   But I think that is accurate.  10 Q   And the position that the Metlakatla Indians took was  11 that the Indian Act did not apply to them?  12 A   I'm not sure at that point.  I mean, if it --  13 Q   Anyhow, the question here was, as you can see, what is  14 the reason that the Indians would not accept Mr.  15 McKay, and the answer:  16  17 "They said to Mr. McKay himself that they did  18 not feel that the Indian Act, while, good in  19 itself, was intended for or suitable for  20 Indians in their position, and that as he  21 came as an agent appointed to carry out that  22 Act his presence amongst them would be  23 useless, as the Act was not in force.  At  24 the same time they disclaimed all personal  25 animosity to him."  26  27 That appears to have been Mr. Tomlinson's answer";  28 A   Yes.  2 9 Q   And now further down the page a little more than  30 half-way down there is a question.  The question was:  31  32 "Q   What do you think about it yourself?  Why do  33 you consider it not in force?  34 A   I consider it a special Act and not one of  35 the laws of the land."  36  37 You see that?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Now, I'm not going to ask you what he meant by that,  40 but that appears to be a further Tomlinson answer?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And then Mr. Davie, the Attorney-General, said this:  43  44 "Q   It is recognized by all authority to be the  45 law, and it is not a question for you or for  46 the Indians to discuss whether the law be  47 right or whether it be wrong.  There is not  -9 17873  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 the slightest doubt that this Act is in  2 force.  Do you know it is in force?  3 A   I give it as my opinion that it is not in  4 force.  5 Q   On your oath, you do not believe that Act is  6 in force?  7 A   On my oath, I do not believe that that Act  8 is in force."  9  10 And Mr. Elliott says:  11  12 "Q   And you told the Indians that?  13 A   I could not say whether I did or not."  14  15 So that appears to be part of Mr. Tomlinson's  16 evidence?  17 A  Well, yes.  He doesn't say which Indians that are  18 being referred to here.  19 Q   Well, it appears that the Metlakatla inquiry -- that  20 they were dealing with Metlakatla Indians?  21 A  Well, yes.  Okay.  22 Q   I don't think much there's much doubt of that.  23 Now, it seems then, doesn't it, from that evidence  24 of Tomlinson's, that he, Tomlinson, did not consider  25 the Indian Act to apply to the Metlakatla Indians?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And the Metlakatla Indians were of the same opinion?  28 I'm going back to the top of the page where he's  29 describing the -- what the Indian position was.  30 A   Could you just repeat that question for me, please?  31 Q   Well, it appears that the Metlakatla Indians were of  32 the same opinion as Tomlinson, that is, that the Act  33 did not apply to them?  34 A  Whereabouts is that stated?  35 Q   Well, the question was:  36  37 "Q   What is the reason that the Indians would  38 not accept Mr. McKay?  39 A   They said to Mr. McKay himself that they did  40 not feel that the Indian Act, while good in  41 itself, was intended for or suitable for  42 Indians in their position, and that as he  43 came as an agent appointed to carry out that  44 Act, his presence amongst them would be  45 useless, as the Act was not in force."  46  47 He's reporting what the Indians were saying to 17874  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 McKay?  2 A   Right.  Yes.  Yes.  3 Q   So we gather from that that the Indians considered the  4 Act did not apply to them?  5 A   Yeah, I think wasn't there some sort of special, I  6 don't know, improvement act or something that was  7 involved in this business here?  I can't remember.  As  8 I say, I haven't looked at these events in detail.  9 Q   Well, I'm not going to ask you to give your opinion on  10 what the law was, what the Indian Act provided at that  11 time, and I wouldn't expect that unless what a witness  12 who were an expert in that narrow field would know,  13 but that's right, there was some special provision  14 that might have been invoked?  15 A   I was just thinking that that is part of the  16 context --  17 Q   Yes.  18 A   -- for these events.  19 Q   Yes.  20 A  As I say, I don't know that in any detail whatsoever.  21 MR. MACAULAY:   Now, can I draw your attention to another —  22 some other evidence.  My lord, this is the evidence of  23 Clifford, C.W.D. Clifford, at page Roman numeral 6 of  24 the Metlakatla commission.  According to the  25 transcript his occupation was then that of miner.  26 THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay, I was given three copies of this.  I  27 assumed there was something coming to me later.  28 MR. MACAULAY:  No, we were asked for some extra copies by the  29 registrar.  30 THE COURT:  I've got one.  Do you want it marked?  31 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  Could that be marked, my lord?  32 THE COURT:  Yes.  33 MR. MACAULAY:  Next tab.  34 THE COURT:  That will be 1059-5.  35 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, my lord.  36  37 (EXHIBIT 1059-5: Excerpt from Metlakatla commission  38 evidence of C. CLifford, page Roman numeral 6)  39  4 0 MR. MACAULAY:  41 Q   Five.  42 Now, you'll see that Clifford was giving evidence  43 about things he observed at Lome Creek where he was a  44 miner, and half-way down the page he was asked:  45  46 "Q   Do you know anything of the posting of  47 notices? 17875  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A   I saw one of them myself, signed by Woods  2 and five Indians.  They posted three notices  3 on Lome Creek, saying that the land  4 belonged to the Indians, and requested them  5 not to burn the timber, and Harry McDames  6 received a letter from Mr. Woods stating  7 that he had better look out; that he had  8 been indulging in immoral practices, and not  9 only him but other miners had better look  10 out.  McDames told them the miners were  11 quite prepared for trouble.  All the Indians  12 that I have spoken to told me that they had  13 been taught by the missionaries that the  14 white men were coming into the country to  15 rob them of the land; that all the land  16 belonged to the Indians.  They also told  17 them that in Canada the Government always  18 bought the land and paid for it, but in this  19 country the Government were not giving the  20 Indians anything; the government were  21 thieves and robbers.  The missionaries -  22 Green on the Naas, Crosby at Fort Simpson,  23 Duncan at Metlakatla, and Tomlinson at  24 Metlakatla - are the only ones I know of who  25 have taught these things.  Tomlinson went up  26 to the Forks of the Skeena last summer, and  27 the Indians say he told them that they had  28 the sympathy of the Metlakatla Indians in  29 trying to drive the white men out of the  30 country.  They further told me he condoned  31 the offence of Yeomans, and said, 'You have  32 your Indian laws and you take a life for a  33 life, and the white man has as much right to  34 respect your laws as you have to respect  35 his, and you have the sympathy of the  36 Indians at Metlakatla' Tomlinson also told  37 me that he thought the Indians had a perfect  38 right to arrest any white man who came on a  39 reservation and did anything contrary to the  40 wishes of the Indians and their rules."  41  42 That's some evidence that Clifford gave?  43 A   Yes.  He was -- he had been a miner in the area for --  44 of the north-west for sometime.  He was later the  45 Hudson's Bay Company clerk at Hazelton and the person  46 about whom the Indians entered a number of complaints  47 about the way that he had treated them in a meeting of 17876  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 1888.  2 Q   You mean the speech of the last of the chiefs who  3 spoke at that 1888 meeting?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Where they referred to the Hudson's Bay Company?  6 A   Clifford was the clerk at Hazelton, the store at  7 Hazelton at that time, yes.  8 Q   Well, it seems from that that Mr. Woods was -- Mr.  9 Woods was the -- a missionary at Kitwanga, was it?  10 A   He's a church missionary, society missionary, as I  11 understand it.  12 Q   Yes.  And he was posting notices for and with the  13 Indians about land ownership?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And Tomlinson was telling Clifford that he thought  16 that the Haatqs had been justified in killing Yeomans?  17 A   That seems to be Clifford's version of it anyway.  18 Q   And that Tomlinson said that the Metlakatla Indians  19 sympathized with the Gitksan in the Gitksan's attempt  20 to drive the whites out?  21 A  Again, that's Clifford's version of what Tomlinson  22 said.  23 MR. MACAULAY:   Yes.  Could that be marked the next —  24 THE COURT:  Yes, 1059-6.  25  26 (EXHIBIT 1059-6: Excerpt from Metlakatla commission  27 numbered 11421, re - Clifford)  28  2 9    MR. MACAULAY:  30 Q   The next one is, my lord, at page 12, Roman numeral 12  31 of the Metlakatla commission.  It's the evidence of  32 Mr. Walter Anderson, Walter B. Anderson, a constable.  33 Mr. Anderson's name appears at the bottom of page 12,  34 and the evidence is actually at the top of page 13 or  35 on page 13.  And Mr. Elliott asked this question of  36 the constable:  37  38 "Q   Did you happen to be present when Mr.  39 Tomlinson and Mr. Duncan came in?  40 A   I was there.  41 Q   Do you remember any statement made by Mr.  42 Tomlinson in regard to the feeling of the  43 Indians about the Lome Creek mines?  44 A   Yes.  He said in speaking of the Metlakatla  45 troubles that the Indians up about the Forks  46 of the Skeena, or up the Skeena, were in a  47 very discontented state of mind concerning 17877  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 the coming of the miners to Lome Creek, and  2 they wished, or intended, claiming  3 compensation for the loss of game which they  4 thought was being driven away by the miners.  5 He upheld them, and said he thought it was  6 quite true that the game would be driven  7 away, and that the Indians in consequence  8 would lose money by it.  He warmly backed  9 them in that; and then when I asked him if  10 he would kindly specify what game he meant,  11 he said fur-bearing animals, such as beaver,  12 mink, marten and bear.  Compensation was to  13 be paid from the government"  14  15 A   "Claimed from the government".  16 Q   "Claimed".  Sorry, "claimed from the government."  17 You're right.  And that was the constable's evidence  18 about -- concerning what Tomlinson was saying about  19 Lome Creek?  20 A   That's Anderson's interpretation, yes.  21 Q   Yes.  Is it your understanding that the Indians had  22 two complaints, one about the animals and the other  23 about gold being taken away from Lome Creek?  24 A  And there seems to be also some concern about damage  25 by fire in terms of the forest which obviously affect  26 the game.  I mean, it's -- generally speaking it's a  27 concern about access to land and resources of the part  28 of the Kitwanga territory.  29 Q   Do you know when Duncan and the Church Missionary  30 Society parted ways, what year?  31 A   I'm not sure exactly when he quit, if that's what  32 you're referring to specifically.  33 Q   Well, he was fired wasn't he?  34 A  Maybe that's the way that it did come out in the end.  35 I'm not -- I can't keep the details of that very  36 complicated sequence of events in my head I'm afraid.  37 I know that 1887 was the year that Duncan departed  38 from Metlakatla for Alaska and established a new  39 mission village at the site of New Metlakatla on  40 Annette Island I believe it was.  41 Q   But the -- well, my instructions are that the bishop  42 gave him a letter, handed him a letter of dismissal in  43 1881?  44 A   I'm not in a position to disagree with you.  I'm just  45 not -- I don't have that -- those facts in my head I'm  46 afraid.  47 Q   And my instructions are that the -- the troubles 1787?  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 between the two groups of Indians, the followers of  2 Duncan and the followers of the bishop, became so  3 severe that there was a -- the Metlakatla inquiry or  4 commission?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   That was the purpose of it?  7 A   It was -- yes.  I mean there had been a considerable  8 degree of discontent at Metlakatla as a result of a  9 very complex and complicated dispute which involved  10 ecclesiastical matters and theological matters and  11 also control over land and facilities at Metlakatla.  12 MR. MACAULAY:  Could that last Anderson's evidence be marked as  13 the next exhibit, my lord?  14 THE COURT:  Yes.  15 THE REGISTRAR: Dash 7.  16 THE COURT: Dash 7.  17 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.  18  19 (EXHIBIT 1059-7: Excerpt from Metlakatla commission re  2 0 Anderson's evidence)  21  22 MR. MACAULAY:  23 Q   And do you know that one of the issues -- I think you  24 do know one of the issues that caused a lot of heat at  25 Metlakatla was who had the right to occupy the two  26 acres of land that had been set aside as a reserve by  27 Governor Douglas many years earlier?  28 A  Well, I take that to be the church missionary site  29 that Duncan had settled on and had built a number  30 of -- there were a number of buildings situated on  31 there and that's the -- what the Indians who lived  32 there had spent some time sort of, and energy, in  33 building, and as a result of what started out as an  34 ecclesiastical dispute spilled over into who should  35 have control of that particular site and facilities as  36 I understand it.  37 Q   And the Metlakatla Indians set up their own council, a  38 sort of parliament?  39 A  Again, I'm not sure about that point.  40 Q   Could the witness be shown a letter to Sir John A.  41 Macdonald from Tomlinson dated April 9th, 1885?  42 It's -- we've made a transcription of that, my lord.  43 It's a typed letter.  Oh, no we haven't got -- I'm  44 sorry, it's a typed letter, and I hope that will --  45 the transcription won't be necessary.  Have you seen  46 that letter before?  47 A   Could you tell me where it's from? 17879  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   You mean what archive?  2 A   The file and archive, yes, if possible.  3 Q   Well, we can get that for you.  I haven't got it.  4 A  As I say, it is a considerable help in allowing me to  5 figure out -- I mean, I have a much better idea of  6 which groups of documents that I looked at than any  7 specific document.  8 Q   Oh, well, I can tell you it's a conventional source,  9 but I can't tell you which of the conventional  10 sources?  11 A   Do you know if it's an IG10?  12 Q   I'll find that out.  13 A   Thank you.  Well, sorry --  14 Q   You were going to say something about it?  15 A   No, I was going to ask you to characterize it or let  16 me read it, one of the two.  17 MR. MACAULAY:   Oh, well, perhaps the witness can take a couple  18 of -- two or three minutes to read it, my lord.  19 THE COURT:  Certainly.  20 THE WITNESS:   No, I haven't seen that document previously.  21 MR. MACAULAY:  22 Q   It appears here that Tomlinson had become the  23 spokesman of the Nishga.  He doesn't use that term,  24 but he's talking about the people on the Nass?  25 A   In part.  He may -- I also took it that he was  26 referring to the Gitksan too.  His geography is a  27 little unclear at times.  It's not --  28 Q   Well, in fact he had become the spokesman for the  29 Gitksan on Lome Creek a year earlier hadn't he?  30 A  Well, that's what I took the reference to the gold  31 mining beginning in 1883 to be referring to and that  32 is --  33 Q   But the occasion of this letter is a gold strike on  34 the Nass?  35 A   It's not clear to me that there's a gold strike on the  36 Nass.  It talks about the headwaters of the -- talks  37 about the Nass Valley, "a tract of country east of the  38 Cascade range of mountains some 200 miles square about  39 the head waters of the Skeena and Nass Rivers", which  40 I take not to be Nishga territory.  I take that to be  41 Gitksan territory.  42 Q   You think he's talking about the Gitksan, about Lome  43 Creek then?  44 A  Well, I find it somewhat confusing as to what he is  45 talking about.  I mean, he's talking about the country  46 inhabited by these tribes is commonly known as the  47 Nass Valley, and which I would agree with you would 17880  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 seem to imply that he's talking about the Nishga.  2 Then he continues, the section that I read about the  3 headwaters of the Skeena and the Nass Rivers, which I  4 take not to be Nishga territory but to be Gitksan  5 territory.  Then there's a reference about the gold  6 rush in 1883 which I thought, and I may be wrong in  7 this, that it was a reference to Lome Creek.  I don't  8 know if there was a gold rush on the Nass Valley in  9 1883.  That is possible.  I can't recollect that.  10 Q   Well, under his item number 2, the cause and nature of  11 the trouble as he characterizes it, he says:  12  13 "Until the autumn of 1881 the intention of  14 these Indians had not been called to the  15 possibility of their lands being interfered  16 with."  17  18 A  Which Indians are we talking about here?  19 Q   Well, I'm going to suggest to you it's not the  20 Gitksan.  21 A   It's not the Gitksan?  22 Q   Because he says in that year --  23 A  Which year?  24 Q   1881.  25 A   1881.  All right.  26 Q   In the autumn of 1881 Mr. O'Reilly —  27 A   Oh —  28 Q   -- started marking off reserves.  29 A   Yes, that certainly refers to -- well, the mouths of  30 the Nass and Skeena Rivers.  31 Q   Uh-huh.  32 A  And that is Nishga territory, and also Coast Tsimshian  33 territory, so there's another level of confusion about  34 exactly whom he is referring to here.  So we have  35 three potential -- we have all of the main Tsimshian  36 speaking groups, it would seem to me, referred to in  37 this.  Now, I may be wrong in that.  38 Q   That's how you take it?  39 A  Well, they seem to -- they seem to be references.  40 Q   Well, that's fair enough.  And under his third item,  41 item number three, he says:  42  43 "Wishing if possible to prevent an outbreak  44 or blood shed, I consented to act as the  45 mouth piece of the Indians, whose language I  46 thoroughly understand, in bringing the  47 matter before the Provincial Authorities." 17881  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1  2 A  Well, that may well be a reference to the letters and  3 petitions.  There was the letter that is from the  4 chiefs of Kitwanga --  5 Q   Yes.  6 A   -- which talks about their lands and territories and  7 their system of ownership.  8 Q   And he goes on to say that the provincial government's  9 position was, and he quotes:  10  11 "We dare not make a precedent by  12 acknowledging hunting or other rights.  We  13 have nothing to do with the Indians, only  14 insofar as keeping the peace.  Beyond that  15 they are under the Dominion Government.  Let  16 them deal with them as they like.  We won't  17 let the Indian keep out the white man, and  18 if by the advent of the white man the Indian  19 suffer, let the Dominion Government see to  2 0 that."  21  22 That's his description of the -- what the province  23 sets is his characterization of the province's  24 position?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And he goes on to say "What with", and I'm quoting  27 from his letter again now,  28  29 "What with Mr. O'Reilly's utterance on the  30 one hand and the decision of the Provincial  31 Government on the other, it can hardly be  32 wondered at if these Indians come to the  33 conclusion that the only chance they have is  34 to look after their rights themselves; and  35 this leads me to the fourth point."  36  37 You see that?  This is Tomlinson's position?  38 A   Yes, and I think something close to that was contained  39 in one of the letters, wasn't it, to the provincial  4 0 government from the Indians?  41 Q   And under item number four he says, amongst other  42 things:  "The provincial government refused to  43 consider the matter."  You see where he starts his  44 item number four?  45 A   Yes, I'm just looking for the section that you were  46 quoting.  47 Q   Oh, it's about ten lines down from the top. 17882  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A   Yes, I'm with you now.  2 Q   He says:  3  4 "The Provincial Government refuse to consider  5 the matter; and, as they have permitted a  6 body of goldminers to go into the district  7 fully armed, the Indians may consider this  8 as a challenge and arm themselves too."  9  10 And makes comments about the kind of people miners  11 are?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Yes.  And then further down, further in the next page  14 towards the bottom he says:  15  16 "Moreover, the very unsatisfactory state of  17 affairs on the Coast, and more especially at  18 Metlakatla, where the Provincial Government  19 seems to be doing everything in a way most  20 calculated to embitter the minds of the  21 Indians and shake what little is left of  22 their once strong faith in the Justice of  23 the Government, will prevent the Government  24 from obtaining the assistance and support of  25 the Coast Indians."  26  27 That's what he says?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   And in Metlakatla we know what side he is on and he's  30 saying the provincial government has joined the forces  31 of Duncan's in the Metlakatla affair?  32 A  Well, he's saying that the events there would be  33 likely to embitter the Indians and --  34 Q   No, he's saying what the government is doing there  35 is -- has embittered the Indians?  36 A  What the provincial government is doing, yes.  37 Q   Not the bishop, the government?  38 A  Well, was the bishop still the magistrate at this  39 point?  40 Q   I don't know that, but he's saying what -- the  41 provincial government seems to be doing everything in  42 a way most calculated to embitter the minds of the  43 Indians, that's the Metlakatla Indians.  44 A  Well, I mean, if the bishop is still the magistrate,  45 the two might well be equated.  46 Q   In his mind at least the province is acting wrongly at  47 Metlakatla? 17883  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A   In Tomlinson's mind, yes, this is certainly a  2 criticism of the provincial government, yes.  3 Q   Now, you say you can't tell in the case of this letter  4 which part of the country he's talking about because  5 the description under the first category is too vague?  6 A  Well, I mean, he seems to be talking about several  7 different areas.  I mean, the part that we just have  8 been considering clearly refers to Metlakatla.  9 Q   Yes.  10 A  Whereas the initial description is referring to the  11 Nass Valley, and then the later parts as we've  12 indicated.  It seems to me that there's some  13 inconsistency in terms of what is being referred to in  14 this letter.  15 Q   And how about the ten tribes he describes --  16 A  Well —  17 Q   -- settled in that district?  18 A  Well, there were seven Gitksan groups, at least four  19 Nishga groups, I think there were nine Coast Tsimshian  20 groups, that's the Fort Simpson and Metlakatla ones,  21 there's Kitsumkalum, there's Kitselas.  Then there's  22 the Southern Tsimshian groups, which were Kitkaata and  23 Kitkatsa.  Then I think there were also Kitazoo and  24 there may be one other Southern Tsimshian group that  25 one -- are part of the Tsimshian language group.  I  26 mean, it's not quite clear to me which ten tribes he  27 is referring to there.  That's part of the problem and  28 confusion of this letter.  29 THE COURT:  You wouldn't think of including the Metlakatla?  30 THE WITNESS:   Well, I don't know, your honour.  At some points  31 he is referring to the Metlakatla.  32 THE COURT:  He's talking about the Skeena and Nass Rivers?  33 THE WITNESS:   Sorry?  34 THE COURT:  He's talking about the headwaters of the Skeena and  35 Nass Rivers.  That wouldn't be Metlakatla?  36 THE WITNESS:   No, not at all.  That I take to be Gitksan  37 territory.  38 THE COURT: Or Gitksan and Nishga?  39 THE WITNESS:   Depending where you draw the line on the  40 headwaters of the Nass, yes.  I mean the large -- the  41 majority of the territory, as I understand it, above  42 Kitladamax it was Gitksan territory.  So there's a  43 whole set of sort of things, quite confusing things,  44 going on in this letter.  4 5 MR. MACAULAY:  46 Q   Well, whoever he is speaking for, Tomlinson has  47 espoused the cause of both coastal and interior 17884  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 northern Indians?  2 A  Well, certainly if one did -- he's espousing the cause  3 of some part or whole of that list of peoples that I  4 went through I think.  5 MR. MACAULAY:   And now I want to show you -- perhaps that  6 document could be marked, my lord?  7 THE COURT: I think it is number 7.  8 THE REGISTRAR: No, tab 8, my lord.  9 THE COURT:  Eight?  10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.  11 THE COURT:  Thank you.  12  13 (EXHIBIT 1059-8: Letter dated April 8, 1885 to Sir  14 John A. Macdonald)  15  16 MR. MACAULAY:  17 Q   The next document I want to show the witness, my lord,  18 this is -- it's a letter to the Kispiox chiefs.  It's  19 addressed to the Kispiox chiefs and it's dated 10th of  20 September '85.  It's from Tomlinson, but the copy we  21 have, as your lordship and the witness will see from  22 the next document I'll put in, it was copied down by a  23 man named Graham who was a magistrate.  He saw the  24 original, he made a copy and sent it on to Victoria,  25 to the Provincial Secretary, so that that's not in --  26 this is not in Tomlinson's handwriting.  Those are the  27 circumstances which we'll develop as we go to another  2 8 document.  29 A   Graham was the gold commissioner at Lome Creek.  30 Q   Right.  And have you seen this letter before, this is  31 a letter to the Kispiox chiefs from Robert Tomlinson?  32 A   I'm not sure.  Can I just read it through quickly?  33 Q   Yes.  Yes.  34 A   I think I have seen that.  I'm not absolutely sure of  35 that, but --  36 Q   Now, this is the -- it's dated 10th of September,  37 1885?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And he tells the Indian chiefs here, the Kispiox  40 chiefs, that he's working for them with the government  41 not to let the white men take your hunting and berry  42 grounds, that's what he says?  43 A   Yes.  I take this as a sort of follow on in a way from  44 his experience at Ankatlas where the Indians who  45 participated in that missionary settlement were from  46 Kispiox.  4 7 Q   Uh-huh.  And we know what he thought about the 17885  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 government in Victoria by that time, by September  2 1885?  3 A   It's not clear which government he's referring to in  4 this letter.  5 Q   No, no, but we know from the previous letter which is  6 dated to Sir John A. Macdonald, which is dated April  7 9th of the same year?  8 A  Well, that could refer to taking the matter up with  9 Sir John A. Macdonald quite as well.  I'm not sure if  10 that's what he means here.  11 MR. MACAULAY:   Could that be marked as the next exhibit, my  12 lord?  13 THE COURT:  That's 9?  14 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.  15  16 (EXHIBIT 1059-9: Letter dated September 10, 1885 from  17 R. Tomlinson to Kispiox chiefs)  18  19 MR. MACAULAY:  20 Q   By the way, the witness had asked where the previous  21 exhibit had come from, the letters of Sir John A.  22 Macdonald.  It's the National Archives, RG2, Volume  23 467.  24 A   That's Department of Justice.  25 Q   Capital A-l, and small A.  26 A   That's the justice --  27 Q   Is it?  Well, I didn't —  28 A   I believe it is.  29 MR. MACAULAY:   Yes.  Okay.  And the next one I would like to  30 show the witness, my lord, is the letter that brought  31 this along.  That's Graham's letter.  It's a letter of  32 February 11th of 1886.  It's pretty legible.  The copy  33 we have from the -- from the archives, but I still  34 provided your lordship and the witness and my friends  35 with a transcription.  36 THE COURT:  It's a substantial item.  Should we take the  37 adjournment before we dive into it or would you rather  38 deal with it first?  39 MR. MACAULAY:  I can tell your lordship that the second word of  40 the transcription is not -- doesn't -- I don't intend  41 to put on the Scot's accent. It's a typo.  42 THE COURT:  Well, I have the honour to amend it.  You want to  43 take the adjournment now, Mr. Macaulay?  44 MR. MACAULAY:  Thank you, my lord.  45 THE COURT: All right.  Thank you.  46 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court. Court stands adjourned for a  47 short recess. 17886  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1  2 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR AFTERNOON RECESS)  3  4 I hereby certify the foregoing to  5 be a true and accurate transcript  6 of the proceedings herein to the  7 best of my skill and ability.  8  9  10 Tanita S. French  11 Official Reporter  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 17887  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO THE AFTERNOON BREAK)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay.  5 MR. MACAULAY:  My lord, we were looking at Mr. Graham's letter.  6 That's — I believe that's tab 195 of Mr. Galois'  7 collection of documents.  8 THE COURT:  This is?  9 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  10 THE COURT:  Oh, I see.  All right.  11 MR. MACAULAY:  It's not been marked as such, but it is.  12 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, you're saying Mr. Graham's letter is what  13 again?  14 MR. MACAULAY:  Tab 195 of the Galois collection.  15 THE COURT:  Oh, I see.  16 MR. MACAULAY:  The witness has told us, my lord, that Mr. Graham  17 was the magistrate at Lome Creek, the gold  18 commissioner and magistrate.  19 THE COURT:  Gold commissioner and magistrate too?  20 THE WITNESS:  Pardon?  21 THE COURT:  And a magistrate?  22 THE WITNESS:  I think that was — it was usually a gold  23 commissioner and stipendiary magistrate.  It was  24 usually a joint appointment.  2 5 MR. MACAULAY:  26 Q   It appears from that letter that Mr. Woods ran afoul  27 what's described as the Duncanites at Kitwanga?  28 A   Yes, some of the same disputes that developed at  29 Metlakatla seemed to have developed at Kitwanga also.  30 Q   And it appears also, as you had mentioned, that some  31 of the Kitwanga Indians had been schooled at  32 Metlakatla?  33 A  At least two that I'm aware of.  There may have been  34 more.  35 Q   And then it seems that Mr. Woods then left, he left  36 the area?  37 A   Yes.  I'm not -- well, he left Kitwanga.  I'm not  38 quite sure when exactly that was, but it was sometime  39 shortly prior to this letter I would assume.  40 Q   And then one of the Kitwanga chiefs told Graham that  41 Tomlinson and Duncan were making trouble among them  42 and that a letter had been sent saying the government  43 wanted to take their lands and that the bishop was the  44 same as the government.  45 A   Is that a question?  46 Q   Well, this is what Chief Caulk told Graham?  47 A   That's what's written there, yes. 17?  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   And then there's a recital of the circumstances under  2 which he found the letter that we've just looked at,  3 the previous exhibit?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   So we have an instance here of Tomlinson sending  6 letters round to the various villages apparently?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   So it's likely that the letter that was sent to -- the  9 letters sent to Kitwanga from Metlakatla in 1884 were  10 from Tomlinson as well?  11 A  Well, that's one possibility.  It's not the only  12 possibility.  13 Q   Well, we have no record of any other person writing  14 about land to the various villages, to Kitwanga or  15 anywhere else, from Metlakatla?  16 A   I can't recall what Stuart and Denahap wrote.  I don't  17 think it was from Metlakatla.  18 MR. MACAULAY:  Now, could that be marked as the next exhibit, my  19 lord?  2 0 THE COURT:  10.  21 THE REGISTRAR:  Tab 10, my lord.  22  23 (EXHIBIT 1059-10 - TAB 10, LETTER DATED FEBRUARY 11, 1886,  24 FROM ALLAN GRAHAM TO THE PROVINCIAL SECRETARY)  25  2 6 MR. MACAULAY:  27 Q   Next I want to show the witness a letter addressed by  28 Mr. Stephenson to Dr. Powell.  Dr. Powell was a  29 federal government officer, my lord.  30 A   He was the Superintendent of Indian Affairs for the --  31 for British Columbia.  32 MR. MACAULAY:  This, my lord, is dated December 9th, 1886.  33 THE COURT:  Which one was the superintendent?  34 MR. MACAULAY:  Powell was.  35 THE COURT:  Powell.  All right.  3 6 MR. MACAULAY:  37 Q   Stephenson, as your lordship will see, was a -- either  38 a minister or a lay preacher with the Anglican Church.  39 A   I believe he was the successor to Reverend Woods, was  40 he not?  41 Q   It would appear that way.  And, my lord, the only  42 transcription -- the letter can be read without great  43 difficulty, but I have transcribed a portion of it,  44 which reads:  45  46 "...he [Edward Stuart]...said things which he  47 affirmed Messrs Duncan and Tomlinson had told 17889  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 him which had he known I understood all he said  2 I am sure would not have been uttered in my  3 hearing.  4 There is one, confirming what I showed you  5 in a letter in Victoria.  6 'Mr. Tomlinson had told him on no account  7 to allow a C.M.S. man to land let alone stay at  8 Kitwangahk; & if white men came, to prevent  9 their landing.'  10 And that if all the indians rose and  11 opposed the government, sticking up for their  12 rights & preventing the surveys the government  13 would finally yield to them."  14  15 Now, the Mr. Stuart, Mr. E. Stuart who's identified in  16 this letter, is that the same Stuart you were talking  17 about?  18 A   Yes, I think it is.  19 Q   Well, it appears they gave Mr. Stephenson a rather  20 rough time, doesn't it, from Stephenson's account?  21 A   I'm not sure that it -- the section that we read talks  22 about not what actually happened to him, but a  23 discussion of some communication with Tomlinson.  24 Q   Well, look at page 3 of the letter itself.  25 A  All right.  26 Q   About seven lines or eight lines down it starts:  27  28 "I went to the Forks in about a fortnight.  But  29 before that E. Stuart, Denahap & Matthew  30 Harris, broke into the Church, pulled down the  31 bell & stove so as to prevent me holding  32 services or school.  33 Whilst at the Forks some of them broke open  34 my house and though nothing of importance is  35 missing yet my clothes were strewn over the  36 floor & literally gnawed to pieces by rats.  On  37 my return another letter was sent me warning me  38 to go.  I took no notice of it but tossed it  39 into the fire.  After a while they held a  40 Council headed by this puppet of Mr. Duncan &  41 sent another letter."  42  43 So Mr. Stuart and Mr. Denahap and others were making  44 life difficult for Stephenson, weren't they?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And then on the last page it appears the following  47 morning he gave accounts of what was going on. 17890  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 "...E. Stuart, Denahap & two others broke open &  2 took possession of the school."  3  4 And at the bottom of that last page he adds a sort of  5 P.S.  6  7 "By the way (sic) they told me if I'd join  8 Messrs Duncan & Tomlinson in opposing the  9 Government & oppose the survey here I might  10 stay & they would come to Church," etcetera.  11  12 This is what Stephenson's reporting?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   It appears that the Duncanites at Metlakatla  15 considered the government and the C.M.S. to be their  16 enemies?  17 A  Well, there was quite clearly a conflict at Metlakatla  18 which involved Duncan and the Indians who sided with  19 him and the Church Missionary Society, particularly  20 Bishop Ridley, and the remainder of the Metlakatla  21 Indians, and the government, the provincial government  22 was seen as siding with those group, partly perhaps  23 because the bishop was acting as a magistrate.  24 Q   But the land issue and the church or religious  25 factualism were intertwined?  26 A  Well, yes, yes, as a result, as I understand it, of  27 initially -- well, they became intertwined through  28 the -- through the dispute at Metlakatla.  29 Q   Now, in 1886, when this letter was written, there was  30 no question of a survey anywhere in Gitksan territory,  31 was there, of any survey?  32 A  Well, I took this to be referring to an attempt to  33 survey some land for the Church Missionary Society at  34 Kitwanga, but I'm not sure about that.  35 Q   Does it say that?  36 A  Well, it seems to be referring to Kitwanga and a  37 survey there.  38 Q   Yes.  Well, they -- Tomlinson gave instructions, two  39 instructions apparently, not to let a C.M.S. man to  40 land, and if white men came, to prevent their landing;  41 and then he went on to say if the Indians all opposed  42 the government together and prevented surveys, the  43 government would yield to them?  44 A   I'm just looking for the reference to the survey.  45 Q   Well, it's on the first page -- sorry -- page 2 of the  46 letter itself, two thirds of the way down.  47 Tomlinson's instructions on no account to allow a 17891  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 C.M.S. man to land —  2 A  And then —  3 Q   -- let alone stay.  4 A  5 "By the way (sic) they told me if I'd join  6 Messrs Duncan & Tomlinson in opposing the  7 Government & oppose the survey here..."  8  9 The letter is written from Kitwanga, so I presume that  10 "here" refers to Kitwanga.  11 Q   Well now, isn't what's happening is that Duncan -- or  12 rather Tomlinson is starting a campaign everywhere  13 against government surveys, in Nishga country, in  14 Tsimshian country, in Gitksan country, against the  15 government and government surveys?  16 A  Well, it seems to me that this letter here -- in this  17 particular instance there is reference to -- to a  18 surveyor at Kitwanga.  There was, of course, a Church  19 Missionary Society mission there.  20 Q   Well, there was a Church Missionary Society mission at  21 Hazelton, but they didn't bring a surveyor in?  22 A   Not at that point, no, as far as I'm aware.  23 Q   Or ever?  24 A   The lots were surveyed I think in the 1890s.  25 Q   But not by -- not at the behest of the Church  26 Missionary Society?  27 A   Not as far as I'm aware.  28 Q   No.  This is part of a campaign, whose headquarters  29 was at Metlakatla, designed to oppose the government  30 in its -- with particular reference to its surveying  31 of reserves?  32 A  Well, as far as I know, there was no attempt to survey  33 a reserve at Kitwanga at this time, so I can only  34 assume that it was referring to the mission.  35 Q   But there was no attempt to have any survey of any  36 kind at Kitwanga at that time, was there, or for years  37 after that?  38 A  Well, I mean, this -- what it says is -- you've got it  39 here -- if I'd join them and oppose the survey here,  40 in the letter from Kitwanga.  41 Q   Yes.  So you don't agree with me that it's just part  42 of a general campaign by Tomlinson against the  43 government?  44 A   There was quite clearly regional discontent through  45 the upper Skeena, the lower Skeena, and the Nishga  46 area at this time, which involved land issues and  47 which involved ecclesiastical issues.  It seems to me 17892  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 that that involved Tomlinson certainly, but it also  2 reflected on the realities that the Indians perceived  3 to a certain extent, and it varied a lot from one area  4 to another.  5 Q   But there was no survey reality for the Indians on the  6 Skeena to perceive in those years?  No surveyor had  7 come up the river that you know of for the purpose  8 of -- any purpose other than looking for a railway  9 route perhaps?  10 A  Well, there had -- I mean, there had been those survey  11 parties through.  No, this is the only thing that I'm  12 aware of which could be interpreted as referring to a  13 surveyor.  There certainly had been surveyors on the  14 Nass River.  15 Q   Yes.  16 A  And there had been a number of incidents there.  17 Q   And there were surveyors down at the mouth of the  18 Skeena?  19 A   There had been in the early 1880s, yes.  20 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  My lord, could this letter of Mr.  21 Stephenson's to Dr. Powell be marked as the next  22 exhibit?  23 THE COURT:  Yes, that will be 11.  24  25 (EXHIBIT 1059-11 - TAB 11, LETTER DATED DECEMBER 9, 1886,  2 6 FROM F. STEPHENSON TO DR. POWELL)  27  28 THE COURT:  I'm sure the C.M.S. that's mentioned there refers to  29 the Church Missionary Society --  30 MR. MACAULAY:  Church Missionary Society.  31 THE COURT:  — not the Columbia Mining & Smelter.  32 MR. MACAULAY:  No, my lord.  The C.M.S., as I understand it, was  33 one of the antagonists --  34 THE COURT:  Yes.  35 MR. MACAULAY:  36 Q   -- in a fierce contest farther down the river.  37 The next one I want to show to Dr. Galois is a  38 letter from Mr. Powell, the same Mr. Powell, to the  39 Indian Superintendent -- to the Superintendent  40 General.  And this is a letter -- have you seen this  41 letter before?  It's dated March 23rd, 1887.  42 A   I think so, yes.  43 Q   Yes.  And the only passage of that letter I want to  44 draw to your attention is the beginning of the second  45 paragraph on page 1 and the top of page -- it ends at  46 the top of page 2, which says:  47 17893  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 "I am of (the) opinion that the long license  2 which both Mr. Tomlinson and Mr. Duncan have  3 had to create a feeling of hostility in the  4 minds of the Indians not only against the  5 Church Missionary Society but against the  6 Government in the immediate vicinity of  7 Metlakatla, has had a very prejudicial effect  8 upon these more distant and isolated bands."  9  10 And this is in the context of Mr. Stephenson and his  11 troubles?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   That is, do you agree with that opinion of Mr.  14 Powell's to the extent that the -- the -- the  15 hostility against the government and church had its  16 roots in Metlakatla and its quarrels?  17 A  Well, I think it partially had it there.  I think the  18 question of access to land and resources was -- was a  19 more widespread problem and had its creation, shall we  20 say, in more places than simply at Metlakatla.  In  21 other words, I think that the mining activity on Lome  22 Creek was a very significant factor into contributing  23 to the issue having a reality in that particular area.  24 MR. MACAULAY:  Could this be marked as the next exhibit, my  25 lord, this letter of Dr. Powell to the Superintendent  26 General of Indian Affairs?  27 THE COURT:  Yes, 11.  I'm sorry, 12.  28  29 (EXHIBIT 1059-12 - TAB 12, LETTER DATED MARCH 23, 1887,  3 0 FROM DR. POWELL TO THE SUPERINTENDENT GENERAL OF INDIAN  31 AFFAIRS)  32  33 MR. MACAULAY:  34 Q   Now, there was another commission of inquiry in 1887  35 into the state and condition of Indians in the  36 northwest coast of British Columbia?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And that was in part because of the continuing quarrel  39 and animosity that was going on between the Duncanites  40 and the C.M.S.?  41 A   I think by that time Duncan had left.  I'm not sure.  42 He left in 1887.  I'm not quite sure when in terms of  43 when that commission was held.  44 Q   Well —  45 A   But it's referring to the issues and the circumstances  46 around that departure in part.  47 Q   Yes.  Well, the commission was appointed in September, 17894  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 '87, and perhaps that's so.  2 You've read the report of the commission?  3 A   Yes, I have.  4 Q   I'm going to refresh your memory.  I'm going to show  5 you the report.  My lord, I'm handing in the report  6 itself.  I'm only drawing the witness' attention to  7 some part of it.  We have the commission itself, then  8 correspondence between the Attorney-General and the  9 commissioners, and then the report addressed to the  10 Lieutenant-Governor.  11 Now, at page 418 and 419, Dr. Galois, bottom of  12 418, the very last paragraph 418, top of 419, it  13 appears that the -- those Indians who were associated  14 with the C.M.S. at Metlakatla and Kincolith took a  15 very different position regarding the land question  16 than did the Indians at -- who were led by the  17 Methodists at Metlakatla and at Greenville.  Do you  18 agree with that?  19 A   I was just trying to read this.  20 Q   418, 419 --  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   -- tends to summarize it.  23 A   Yes, he's referring to difference of opinion between  24 those two villages.  25 Q   And at page 420 the commissioners have this to say,  26 and I'm reading now from the bottom third of the page:  27  28 "Your Commissioners, while very unwilling to say  29 anything which might engender friction between  30 Indians or their missionary teachers, who  31 belong to different Christian churches or  32 denominations, feel that they would not be  33 fulfilling their public duty were they to fail  34 to point out the curious coincidence of the  35 correspondence between the views held by the  36 Indians and the missionary influence under  37 which they (the natives) are held.  38 The Indian adherents of the Church  39 Missionary Society, and resident at Kincolith  40 and Metlakatlah, put forward no claim of  41 'Indian Title' to the lands of the Province.  42 In all matters they express themselves as loyal  43 to the Federal and Provincial Governments, as  44 desiring to come under the 'Indian Act,' and to  45 have among them Indian Agents.  On the other  46 hand, the natives of Greenville, on the Naas  47 river, and the Tsimpseans of Port Simpson, 17895  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 stations of the Methodist Church of Canada,  2 strongly urge their claim to ownership in all  3 the country, and speak most determinedly as to  4 what shall be their course of action if their  5 claim be not allowed.  They repudiate the idea  6 of the provisions of the 'Indian Act' being  7 exercised with regard to them, and decline to  8 receive an Indian Agent.  They hardly,  9 especially the Indians of Port Simpson, attempt  10 to veil the expression of their feelings of  11 opposition to the views of the Government.  All  12 this seems to have its inception in, and to be  13 a continuance of, the policy inaugurated at  14 Metlakatlah, say in 1881, the date of the  15 severance between Mr. Duncan and the Church  16 Missionary Society.  These facts, and the  17 circumstances attending them, demand  18 attention."  19  20 You have read that before?  21 A   I've read this report.  It's some time since I have,  22 but yes, I have.  23 THE COURT:  What page is that at, Mr. Macaulay?  24 MR. MACAULAY:  That's at page 420, my lord.  25 THE COURT:  420.  Yes.  Thank you.  2 6 MR. MACAULAY:  27 Q   And didn't the commission find what appears from this  28 correspondence we've been reviewing that the origin  29 and headquarters and motive force behind the Indian  30 title question, whatever its merits, originated in  31 Metlakatla with Duncan and Tomlinson?  32 A   That's the assertion that is contained there, yes.  33 Q   Do you -- well, the letters and documents we've  34 reviewed tend to support that, don't they?  35 A   Yes, but there are other documents, letters which can  36 paint a more complex picture, I think.  37 MR. MACAULAY:  Can you tell his lordship of any land claim in  38 the terms as is expressed by Mr. Duncan or Mr.  39 Tomlinson before 19 — before 1881?  40 MR. ADAMS:  Well, my lord, perhaps my friend can say what terms  41 are being attributed to Mr. Duncan.  42 MR. MACAULAY:  43 Q   We'll confine it to Mr. Tomlinson then.  44 A   Could you repeat the question?  45 Q   Can you think of a claim to the ownership of land in  46 terms -- in the kind of terms used by Mr. Tomlinson, a  47 claim to land before 1881? 17896  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A  Well, there's a section in a document by William  2 Downie when he arrives at Kitsegukla and some Indians  3 come down, and according to the statement as recorded  4 by him, they say that this was their land, and he then  5 gives them some presents and he passes through.  6 Q   All right.  Okay.  7 A   That's off the top of my head.  There may be other  8 documents that I don't recall at the moment.  9 MR. MACAULAY:  We'll look at those.  We'll look at those.  But  10 could -- I now show the witness a letter to the --  11 addressed by -- sorry, my lord, I think what I ought  12 to do now is go back to the tab -- it must have been  13 tab 1, the letter that included the stirring accounts  14 of what had happened at the revival meeting, the  15 Methodist revival meeting in Hazelton in January,  16 1889.  17 THE COURT:  Did you wish to mark this report?  18 MR. MACAULAY:  Oh, yes, my lord, if I could.  19 THE COURT:  13.  2 0 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  21 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  22 MR. ADAMS:  My lord, just for convenience of cross-reference,  23 that's also tab 196, the report, in Dr. Galois'  2 4              documents.  25 THE COURT:  Thank you.  What number is that, 196?  2 6 MR. ADAMS:  196.  27  28 (EXHIBIT 1059-13 - TAB 13, EXCERPTS FROM REPORT OF  29 COMMISSION - N.W. COAST INDIANS, PGS. 415 TO 425)  30  31 MR. MACAULAY:  32 Q   Now, the reason I mentioned that, we haven't got many  33 minutes left this afternoon, Doctor, and you said you  34 wanted to read those statements attached to Captain  35 Fitzstubbs' letter --  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   -- before you expressed any opinion about them, and I  38 was putting to you, I think, that these things that  39 were being said at the Methodist meeting at Kitta  40 Moldoh's house were -- and the other statements, such  41 as those of -- recorded by Peter John and Esther  42 Beresford, were likely to stir up hatred.  43 A  Well, it seems to me what's going on here is an  44 attempt by Pearce as a Methodist to proselytize in  45 Hazelton --  46 Q   Oh, yes.  47 A   -- where there was at that time a Church Missionary 17897  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Society mission I think run by the Reverend Field.  2 Q   Yes.  3 A  And there is -- there's some sort of competition going  4 on there, it seems to me.  The objective seems to be  5 primarily in terms of conversion, it seems to me.  6 Q   What would telling the congregation that the judge was  7 there to deceive them do to convert them?  8 A  Well, I mean, that's partly in terms of -- of dealing  9 with white people and -- I mean, there's an  10 association there in terms of -- what does he call  11 it -- sins or something.  I can't remember all of the  12 documents there now.  But there's an attempt to sort  13 of -- well, I don't know quite how to put this, but  14 there are warnings about sort of sin being associated,  15 shall we say, with at least some of the whites and  16 that the Methodist -- conversion to Methodism is the  17 way, I guess, in the end to salvation, and then there  18 are some additional remarks, such as the one that you  19 cite, which go beyond that certainly.  20 MR. MACAULAY:  This goes well beyond any legitimate religious  21 motive, doesn't it?  22 MR. ADAMS:  My lord, is that a theological question?  2 3    MR. MACAULAY:  24 Q   Oh, I don't think it's a very deep theological  25 question, my lord.  If the witness says, well, that's  26 not his field, well, that's fine, I accept that  27 answer, but he hasn't said that.  28 A   No, it is a statement that -- could you show me where  29 it is exactly?  30 Q   Well —  31 A   I'd like to just see the context of it.  32 Q   Right.  I'll read you the whole statement again.  It  33 bears reading.  Jack Cade --  34 A   Do we know who Jack Cade was?  35 Q   Well, he was obviously a speaker at the Methodist  36 meeting.  I don't know anything more than that about  37 him or any of the others, except for Edward Sexsmith,  38 who appears often in these.  39 A   Do we know that he was an Indian?  4 0 Q   We don't know that.  41  42 "Jack Cade said my heart feels good tonight.  I  43 wish to speak to you from my heart and tell you  44 just how I feel.  Every word that my brothers  45 have said tonight here is true.  It is the  46 white man's fault that this village cannot be  47 made Christian.  I know it from experience." 1789?  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 And then there's a --  2  3 "Often," I think it is, "I used to work in the  4 mines" --  5  6 A   "When I used to work in the mines..."  7 Q  8 "...they have often said to me there is no  9 Jesus, no God, and they do everything that is  10 bad and teach it to us.  Young men and women  11 have nothing to do with them.  Do not go with  12 them or work for them.  Look at them," and in  13 brackets, "(pointing to the circle of whites  14 who formed part of the congregation) look at  15 them, they will go home and laugh at us and  16 make fun of our meeting.  They always do it,  17 they are nothing but bearded devils, do not  18 trust any white man who comes here unless he is  19 a teacher.  Have nothing to do with the whites,  20 they all mislead you.  Even the judge is here  21 to deceive you."  22  23 That's the context of that statement.  24 A   Yes, it's primarily concerned with miners and the  25 evils that they do and that they should be avoided.  I  26 mean, that seems to be the primary emphasis of this  27 statement here.  After all, the majority, certainly,  28 of the whites that the Gitksan would encounter at this  2 9 time would be miners.  30 Q   Yes.  There was no -- in 1889, January 1889, this is  31 when this was spoken, there was -- there were  32 practically no whites in the Skeena River, in the  33 Gitksan area; is that right?  34 A   In the Gitksan area?  35 Q   Yes.  36 A   I'm just trying to think.  37 Q   The area now claimed by the Gitksan.  38 A   Permanent residents?  39 Q   Even transients by then.  40 A  My guess -- well, I think -- I mean, we have a  41 reasonable estimation of the population for the mid  42 1890s, and I wouldn't think it was lot different in  43 1891.  It was probably somewhere between 50 and 100  44 residents.  45 Q   There were practically no pre-emptions?  46 A  As far as I'm aware.  47 Q   There were -- there was no by this time Lome Creek? 17899  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 The Lome Creek diggings had been worked out, they  2 were gone?  3 A   I think there was some mining still going on, but not  4 a great deal.  5 Q   A few people?  6 A  A few people, yes.  7 Q   There was no government survey in 1880 up to January  8 1889, or through 1889, except those people looking for  9 a possible route for a railroad?  10 A   Right.  It's 1890 that the first — when Val goes up  11 to initiate the process of allocating reserves, yes.  12 Q   So in 1889 there's none of that?  13 A   No.  14 Q   So there is no white settler pressure on the Indian  15 communities?  16 A  Very little certainly at this point in time.  There  17 had been the experience of that in the past.  18 Q   Transient miners?  19 A  Well, more than transient miners on Lome Creek.  20 Q   Most of the miners at Lome Creek didn't winter there?  21 Only a half a dozen did, as the records show?  22 A   I think it said 17.  23 Q   Seventeen.  But it was in that context that this  24 church group was stirring up hatred?  25 A  Well, I mean, as I said before, I think the -- the  26 significance of the Lome Creek episode is that it  27 represented the first significant competition in  28 Gitksan territory over access to land and resources,  2 9 and it seems to me that that was an important  30 development and which gave the Gitksan similar  31 experience to some of the developments that had  32 occurred on the coast.  33 Q   But that had come and gone well before January 1889?  34 A   But the memory of that was certainly there.  35 Q   At Hazelton?  36 A   They would, I'm sure, have been aware of what had  37 happened.  38 MR. MACAULAY:  My lord, it's four o'clock.  I understand your  39 lordship --  40 THE COURT:  All right.  Are we on schedule, Mr. Macaulay?  41 MR. MACAULAY:  Not — well —  42 THE COURT:  We'll finish tomorrow, will we?  4 3 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes, we will.  44 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Can counsel remind me where I'll  45 find Jack Cade?  46 MR. MACAULAY:  The medieval Cambridge history of England has an  47 entry for him. 17900  R. Galois (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 THE COURT:  I think it's Henry the IV, Part 2, but I'm not sure.  2 I'd like counsel to help me.  Thank you.  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until  4 ten o'clock tomorrow.  5  6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:00 P.M.)  7  8 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  9 a true and accurate transcript of the  10 proceedings herein to the best of my  11 skill and ability.  12  13  14  15  16 Leanna Smith  17 Official Reporter  18 United Reporting Service Ltd.  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


Citation Scheme:


Citations by CSL (citeproc-js)

Usage Statistics



Customize your widget with the following options, then copy and paste the code below into the HTML of your page to embed this item in your website.
                            <div id="ubcOpenCollectionsWidgetDisplay">
                            <script id="ubcOpenCollectionsWidget"
                            async >
IIIF logo Our image viewer uses the IIIF 2.0 standard. To load this item in other compatible viewers, use this url:


Related Items