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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-04-14] British Columbia. Supreme Court Apr 14, 1989

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 15469  1 April 14, 1989  2 Vancouver, B.C.  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  5 Columbia, Vancouver, this Friday, April 14, 1989.  In  6 the matter of Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen  7 at bar.  I caution the witness.  You're still under  8 oath.  9  10 HUGH BRODY:  Resumed  11  12 MR. JACKSON:  My lord, there is a matter I wish to raise before  13 Mr. Goldie proceeds.  Immediately at the conclusion of  14 the proceedings yesterday, Mr. Brody advised me that  15 in reviewing the documents in Volume I, the film  16 interviews, there are in fact four -- three tabs, 4, 6  17 and 12 -- I should say, your lord -- my lord, that Mr.  18 Brody had anticipated that he could talk to me before  19 the cross-examination started in relation to this.  2 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  21 MR. JACKSON:  Tab 4, 6 and 12 were interviews conducted at Mr.  22 Brody's direction, and the film was reviewed by him,  23 the transcripts were reviewed by him, but he was not  24 present at those interviews.  My friends may wish to  25 pursue this matter on cross-examination and perhaps I  26 can deal with it in redirect if it becomes an issue.  27 I would submit that the field notes are still properly  28 tendered as part of the material upon which Mr. Brody  29 has based his opinions, the corpus of material.  I  30 wanted to alert the Court to that so there was no  31 misunderstanding.  32 MR. GOLDIE:  Could my friend tell us who the interviewer was?  33 MR. JACKSON:  Yes.  The interviewer in all three cases is  34 Richard Overstall.  Thank you, my lord.  35 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Goldie.  36 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord.  Perhaps my friend can also advise us  37 about the whereabouts of the tape on the Bear Lake  38 feast.  39 MR. JACKSON:  My lord, Mr. Grant is going to deal with that.  I  40 see Mr. Grant is coming into court, so perhaps we can  41 deal with that during the break, my lord.  42 THE COURT:  Would you answer some questions, please, Mr. Grant?  43 MR. GOLDIE:  We were hoping to hear about the whereabouts of the  44 elusive Bear Lake feast.  45 THE COURT:  Can you assist us in that, Mr. Grant?  46 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  I have -- just a moment here.  I have checked  47 that these are the tapes and I have the originals to 4 MR. GRANT  5 THE COURT  6 MR. GRANT  15470  1 provide to my friend.  2 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  You have the originals to provide to  3 your friend?  I have the originals of the Bear Lake tapes.  And these are copies that you have for your friend?  No.  That's what I was endeavouring to do, to  7 arrange for copying.  But what I feel I can do is  8 provide my friends the originals with their  9 undertaking to return the originals.  That would be  10 the easiest way.  11 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, it's of no use to me right now, so perhaps it  12 could be given to Ms. Koenigsberg.  13 MR. GRANT:  Yeah.  I understood it was Ms. Koenigsberg's  14 request.  15 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, it may have been Ms. Koenigsberg's request,  16 but obviously it was a matter of considerable  17 importance in the cross-examination of this witness.  18 MR. GRANT:  Which was raised by Ms. Koenigsberg, yes.  19 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, you didn't hear my voice in the background  20 saying here, here.  21 MR. GRANT:  No, I didn't.  22 MR. GOLDIE:  Then does my friend have the complete copy of the  23 December 31st, 1915 Loring letter?  24 MR. JACKSON:  My lord, I'm still endeavouring to find that.  It  25 seems to have got meshed in the toils of the photocopy  26 machine.  I'm trying to rediscover it.  27 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, the first steamer to Hazelton —  2 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  29 MR. GOLDIE:  -- according to Dr. Largess' book was the Caledonia  30 in 1891.  31 THE COURT:  Thank you.  I've forgotten about Dr. Largess' book.  32 What's the title?  33 MR. GOLDIE:  "Skeena", I think it is.  34 THE COURT:  Yes.  That's right.  I knew his son quite well.  35 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GOLDIE CONTINUED:  36 Q   Mr. Brody, do you have your report in front of you?  37 A   Yes.  38 MR. GOLDIE:  Would you turn to page 39, please?  39 THE COURT:  39 or 139?  40 MR. GOLDIE:  41 Q   I have 39, my lord.  Excuse me, my lord.  It's page 38  42 of the report.  43 And in the second paragraph, line 4, you say:  44  45 "This is frog and wolf clan country, owned  46 above all" and so on.  47 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  15471  And you may recall that I raised during your  examination in chief the fact that in the draft that  we had been provided, that the -- that word in the  draft was 'claimed' and a discussion arose and you  said in the transcript, Volume 211, page 14295, and I  quote:  "My intention is the word should be owned.  It  seemed to make better sense of the issue".  What do  you mean by the word 'owned' in that -- in your use of  it there?  I'm trying to characterize what it means according to  Gitksan law, that is to say within the accounts of  this territory given by the relevant chiefs.  They  make clear that, according to their system, there is  an ownership of the territories that encompass Bear  Lake.  It has no special anthropological sense?  Only insofar as I'm remaining within the point of view  of the Gitksan.  Yes.  That is what anthropology is very largely concerned  with.  And it is your personal conviction?  I don't have a personal conviction about ownership  over and above who does and doesn't as between the  Gitksan and the Sekani-Carrier have ownership of these  territories.  No.  I'm talking about the -- the reason why you  changed it from the word -- from claimed to owned was  that you accepted --  No.  — the —  The word 'claim' doesn't do -- doesn't represent  properly how the Gitksan, the Miluulak and Nii kyap,  in this case, think about this territory.  When I  first went to Bear Lake, it was with an understanding  that there was some sort of confusion of claims among  the people.  With the benefit of my search there, I  understood in fact much more clearly that the houses  here have an ownership of the territories according to  their laws.  Yes.  And you have accepted that?  I've accepted that their system describes territory  that encompasses Bear Lake, thanks to going there and  hearing people explain that to me.  So the answer to my question is yes?  Well, you have to say your question again.  You've accepted their claim? 15472  1 A   I haven't accepted their claim in relation to anything  2 other than one another.  I've accepted the Gitksan  3 have a claim in relation to the Sekani.  4 Q   Yes.  But you weren't endeavouring to convey any sense  5 of ownership according to the laws of Canada or  6 anything of that order?  7 A   No.  I'm not writing about that here.  8 Q   No.  All right.  Now, when Mr. Jackson was qualifying  9 you, he went through the experience you had, and one  10 of the first ones was your experience that resulted in  11 a book about the Irish villages.  What was that again?  12 A  Well, there were two books.  There was a book -- or  13 the book you're referring to is "Inishkillane", yes.  14 Q   And then in your evidence in chief in Volume 210 at  15 page 14159 -- I should say this is your evidence with  16 respect to your qualifications.  You said at line  17 38 -- the question was asked of you:  18  19 "Could you indicate the methodology, I think  2 0 you have given us some indication that you  21 did participant observation.  Were there  22 other heads of methodological process which  23 you undertook in your work in Ireland?  24  25 And then you say:  26  27 "Yes.  As I said, I did carry out extensive  28 participant observation."  29  30 And you repeated that, I believe, at page 14226.  And  31 this is in your evidence in chief.  And my friend put  32 this question to you:  33  34 Q   "Mr. Brody, in dealing with your first  35 field study in anthropology, in social  36 anthropology" in Ireland, "you  37 identified a number of fronts upon which  38 you moved methodlogically", it's spelled  39 in the transcript.  40  41 And I would just -- I would like to just review those  42 with you.  The first front was participant  43 observation.  Now, the participant observation that  44 you were undertaking in Ireland was what I would call  45 under cover.  That is to say you worked as a barman in  46 circumstances in which the people you were observing  47 were not aware that you were a social scientist? 1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  6  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  47  15473  The people I knew best, and they would include the  people I was observing, did know I was a social  scientist.  But somebody who came into the pub and ordered  something from you and gossiped with his neighbour  would not be aware that you were -- the man behind the  bar was a social scientist?  That's right, they wouldn't.  Well, actually in a  small -- there's a small community where gossip was a  fairly alive force.  I think there were few people who  would come into the bar who wouldn't know, but it's  possible.  Yes.  Just as it would be possible in my work with the  Gitksan.  If I was in the bar in Hazelton or on the  river anywhere or I was at Kisgegas, say, for example,  all the people fishing, not all the people there in  the fishing site would know who I was.  Once again,  the gossip is pretty hot.  Well, there is a difference though in the case at bar.  You were introduced into the community as a social  scientist or as a person who was going to do a film  which would support their claims?  No.  I don't think I was introduced into the community  in any formal way.  I was retained by an organization  that was a community organization.  Yes.  But not --  I'm not suggesting-- when I said "introduced", I'm not  suggesting in a formal way in which the people were  asked to come to the town square and you stood on a  platform, but you, after all, were a white man in the  middle of the native community and everybody knew who  you were; isn't that right?  Everyone knew who I was?  Yes.  No.  I wouldn't say so.  No.  I wouldn't say so at  all.  And I wasn't the only white man.  No.  I'm aware of that.  But you were -- you were  present.  You interviewed people.  Is there anybody  you interviewed that didn't know who you were and why  you were interviewing them?  Oh, yes.  Who?  There would be persons who I would be just chatting  to.  I remember being in, for example -- one example  leaps to mind being in New Hazelton.  I can't remember 15474  1 why I was there.  I think I had gone to get gas or  2 something in the petro station and having a long  3 conversation about the fishery in the Skeena just  4 above Glen Vowel.  We fell into conversation the way  5 you do in those communities and we had a really  6 interesting conversation.  I think it was Ernie -- I  7 found out his name subsequently.  Ernie Hyzims, I  8 think.  And he had his family with him.  We talked to  9 them.  I remember thinking afterwards it's amazing how  10 you get into -- how you do interviews.  11 Q   Is there anybody whose interviews you relied upon  12 didn't know who you were and why you were there?  13 A   I was never sure that some of the oldest people knew  14 quite why I was there, but insofar as I could, I tried  15 to explain the nature of my research.  But I think  16 probably most of the people I interviewed would have  17 known that I was working as part of a general research  18 project going on in the area that was associated with  19 this and other matters.  2 0 Q   Having to do with land claims?  21 A   Yes.  Land claims research had been going on in the  22 area since '81, '82.  23 Q   Yes.  Now, the -- and had been going on and was the  24 subject-matter of the film proposal you put in 1980?  25 A   I don't believe it was the subject-matter of the film  26 proposal.  I don't recall there being a proposal that  27 characterized the film in that way.  28 Q   There may have been, but you don't recall it?  Is that  29 correct?  30 A   Oh, you made a statement.  Sorry.  I didn't realize  31 you were asking a question.  Yes.  There may have  32 been, but I don't recall it  33 Q   Now, the participant observation that you rely upon in  34 expressing your opinions here is not the same kind of  35 participant observation that you conducted in Ireland,  36 is it?  37 A   No.  I'd say it wasn't in certain regards, not as  38 extensive to start with, but it is observation  39 relative to the whole project in the west of Ireland.  40 We played a much larger role in northwest B.C.,  41 largely because of change in my family circumstances.  42 I wasn't able to do the kind of participant  43 observation I had done there and other places.  It was  44 a less prominent aspect in my work.  45 Q   Yes.  And the -- one of the contributing factors,  46 apart altogether from your inability to be in the area  47 for the length of time that you might have liked to 1  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  19  Q  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  45  46  47  15475  have been, was the language question.  In Ireland, for  instance, you -- your book indicates that your  principal work was done in an English-speaking --  Bilingual, two community, one bilingual.  The other --  English?  -- English was the dominant language, yes.  And you don't claim to be fluent in either Gitksan or  Wet'suwet'en?  No, I do not.  And the person who conducted the interviews that were  identified by Mr. Jackson this morning, 4, 6 and 12 in  Volume I, who is that please?  Richard Overstall.  And is he -- what is his occupation?  He was administrator with the tribal council and doing  some of the co-ordinating work and provided a lot of  the back-up help with the film making, arranging for  tickets and expense accounts and so on.  And he was the co-ordinator for the land claims work?  I didn't know that he was.  For all the land claims  work you're saying?  I beg your pardon?  The co-ordinator for all the land claims work?  Yes.  Then you may know more than I do.  I know with  relation to the film he was credited as one of the  producers and that's what he was.  Yes.  In your draft in certain references to  footnotes, you say "R.O. to supply".  That would be  Overstall?  Yes.  Richard Overstall has a great deal of knowledge  of where sources can be found and so on.  And wasn't he -- you met him during the course of the  McKenzie Valley pipeline Inquiry?  No.  No, I didn't.  I met him long after that.  All right.  Now, the third front is archival work and  we'll come back to that.  And the fourth front in  your -- in your evidence did you mean to suggest that  you conducted formal interviews in your Irish  experience?  I can't remember if I did or didn't.  It's a very long  time ago.  Yes.  Well, I'm referring here to your evidence in  chief where Mr. Jackson started off by referring you  to your work in Ireland and said he would like to  review with you whether -- and if you could indicate  whether or not these were fronts which you utilized in 15476  1 the work you'd done in preparation for your opinion  2 report.  I'm at transcript 210, my lord, page 14226.  3 The first front was participant observation and then  4 the question of language, the third approach analysis  5 of archival records and then page 14228 in answer to  6 the question:  7  8 "Interviewing, was that a technique you  9 employed?  10 A   Yes, I did a great deal of interviewing.  11 I did lots of informal interviewing,  12 conversations of the ordinary  13 anthropological kind in the course of  14 visiting and participating."  15  16 Were you addressing -- was that answer addressed to  17 your experience here or your experience in Ireland?  18 A   Can you tell me from the transcript, or perhaps you  19 can show it to me.  20 Q   I can't.  It's an ambiguity I'm going to ask you to  21 clear up.  Line 3 is the beginning of your answer.  22 A   It looks as though -- from the context here that I'm  23 referring to the work that I did in northwest B.C.  24 Q   I see.  We can put the Irish experience out of -- to  25 one side, because my reading of your book is that you  26 didn't do any formal interviews in Ireland?  27 A   I think I did.  28 Q   If you wish --  29 A   In the pause there I was trying to recall.  30 Q   I'm going to show you -- my lord, I'm going to hand up  31 a book of documents.  32 A   It's been a long time since I looked at this.  33 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm showing you a photocopy of page 2 of the book  34 "Inishkillane" and paragraph 2, you say --  35 MR. JACKSON:  Which tab is this, Mr. Goldie?  36 MR. GOLDIE:  37 Q   Tab 1.  I'm sorry.  I am referring you to page 2,  38 paragraph 2.  39 A   Tab 1, is it?  40 Q   Yes.  I -- about the fifth line, you say:  41  42 "But a parish in West Clare and a parish in  43 West Cork, both exclusively  44 English-speaking, became the centres of my  45 work."  46  47 You agree with that, of course, do you? 1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  35  1  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  A  42  4 3 MR.  GOLDIE  44  45  ]  46  47  15477  Yes, yes.  "In sociological terms, this work was  participant observation.  I lived and worked  in the communities as a visitor or  additional hand, never as an investigator.  No interviews were ever set up, and no  formal investigations were ever undertaken  with the people as a whole or with any  section of a community."  So that the Irish experience in that respect is of --  Very heavily based on participant observation.  Yes.  In your qualifications you refer to the Apsassin  case, and one of your references to your opinion is  with respect to your -- one of your references in your  opinion here is with respect to your opinion in that  case.  My understanding is that in that case you were  called by the plaintiffs to express opinions with  respect to the Dunne-Za or Beaver Indians who lived in  the vicinity of Fort St. John?  That's right.  Beaver and Cree.  Beaver and Cree, yes.  But the Beaver Indians are  Athabascan?  That's right, yes.  And you lived for a good part of the period of 1977  through 1980 at the Halfway River Reserve with this  band?  '78 to '80, I think, '79, '80.  I see.  Well, I was going by your curriculum vitae.  There's a mistake in the C.V. there.  A period of about, what, 18 months?  Over a period of about 18 months, and it wasn't  continuous.  I was working other communities; I was  doing archival work and so on.  From Mr. Jackson's letter to us of March the 31st, I  understand that -- from that I understand your field  interviews were all in the period August to November,  1985, including the visit to Kisgegas.  Does that  accord with your recollection?  No.  The field interviews -- you mean the film  interviews?  :  No.  What he has described in his letter as field  interviews, Marvin George, Mary Anne Alec, Mary  McKenzie and Earl Tremblay to such Mary McKenzie,  they're all introduced with -- under the heading  "August to November, 1985".  I'll show you the letter 15478  1 in question.  2 MR. JACKSON:  Perhaps it might be more helpful, my lord, if Mr.  3 Brody reviewed the index to the Document Book I, which  4 I think follows the same classification and it is my  5 classification.  6 MR. GOLDIE:  7 Q   Well, do you want to look at Volume I?  8 A  Well, perhaps you should pass it up here in case I  9 need it.  10 Q   I prefer not to think that Mr. Jackson made a mistake.  11 Well?  12 A  What's your question?  13 Q   August to November, 1985?  14 A  Well, I was doing field interviews.  Depends how we  15 define field interviews.  16 Q   I'm talking about the documents you say you relied  17 upon and which you put in evidence here.  18 A   The documents that are listed there include many that  19 come from '85, '86.  I was, of course, working in the  20 area in '83 doing interviews, field interviews, and my  21 work in '85, if I remember, began in spring of '85.  I  22 can't remember quite when.  I remember it was before  23 the salmon came in.  24 Q   You have produced no notes of interviews in 1983 and I  25 just want to have your confirmation that what is set  26 out in Mr. Jackson's letter, field interviews numbered  27 1 to 23, which includes the Kisgegas visit and the  28 Kisgegas gravestone, were all conducted between August  29 and November, 1985?  30 A   I seem to remember somewhere in July, but, yeah, if  31 that's -- they're all dated, I think those ones that  32 are in, so if those are the dates, those are the  33 dates, but it's clear in my mind that some are in  34 June, July.  35 Q   Let's look at the next group called "Field Notes 1 to  36 18".  And those range from July the 4th, 1985 to  37 December the 2nd, 1986.  38 A   Yes.  Those are the ones I had in mind, I suspect,  39 yes.  40 Q   And then correspondence -- other documents, including  41 archival documents, are not yours.  They are documents  42 which you relied upon?  43 A   That's right.  44 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  All right.  45 MR. JACKSON:  It might assist, Mr. Goldie, as I recall drafting  46 that letter, the initial head on page 1 should have  47 been film interviews, and that mistake, I think, has 15479  1 been tracked into the letter and into Tab 1 of -- into  2 the index of Document Book I.  That was my attempt to  3 distinguish between film interviews and the rest of  4 the body of material which Mr. Brody provided me.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  6 Q   Well, this is one of those trivial things.  The items  7 under field interviews, August, November, 1985 refer  8 not only to people but to opening of carving house,  9 Kisgegas visit, Kisgegas' gravestone, and I didn't  10 understand that all of those were film — for the  11 purposes of the film, but if that's what it is, I'm  12 glad to have my friend's --  13 A   That's right.  That explains my difficulty.  I was  14 wondering what had happened to June and July and the  15 following December.  Yes.  That was the film  16 interviewing period.  17 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  Thank you.  And then we come to field  18 notes which extend from July the 4th, '85 to December,  19 '86.  And are those the ones that you particularly did  20 with a view to your report here?  21 MR. JACKSON:  Could that be placed before the witness?  22 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  2 3 MR. JACKSON:  He has it.  24 THE WITNESS:  Easier if I looked at yours.  A flood here.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  26 Q   All right.  Now, looking at the -- under B, these are  27 classified as field notes.  They start off with  28 Solomon Marsden, December 2nd, 1986 meeting at Old  2 9 Hazelton.  And then you go on down to interview with  30 Johnny David September, '86.  But included in there  31 are interviews which start in July of 1985.  And are  32 those the interviews that you -- or notes that you  33 took with respect to the report that you'd presented  34 here?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Thank you.  Now, the other -- and then you told his  37 lordship that you had undertaken archival research and  38 you place some emphasis on Barbeau Beynon.  Where did  39 you undertake that work?  40 A   I did that in Hazelton.  41 Q   The tribal council have a selection of Barbeau Beynon?  42 A   They had the complete thing and the index.  43 Q   And how long did you undertake -- did that work take  44 you and when did you do that?  45 A   It took a long time.  46 Q   Is that in '85, '86?  47 A   Yes.  I really would have to search out of my memory 15480  1 to think of the dates.  I didn't work on it  2 continuously.  It's very, very arduous work, as I'm  3 sure you know, and I do a piece of it and then I do  4 another piece and so on.  5 Q   And then Volume III, which has been tendered here, are  6 a number of documents which are -- some of which are  7 Crown documents.  And where did you do that work?  8 A  Well, some of the documents that were useful,  9 interesting were coming my way throughout the whole  10 period of the work.  11 Q   You mean you were being -- they were being referred to  12 you?  13 A   No.  I was finding them.  When I started work in '83  14 in the tribal council, the library there was full of  15 documents that had just accumulated.  McKenna-McBride  16 was there.  There were at least one set of the Loring  17 papers, I think the papers that Barbeau collected from  18 Loring, odds and ends of paper, I have to say in a  19 rather disorganized form, and I sifted and sorted and  2 0 read and tried to find out what I could.  And that was  21 an important source of --  22 Q   And trapline documents?  23 A   Trapline documents I looked at there, and then I  24 looked at two boxes of trapline documents in Smithers,  25 trapline documents I also looked at when I was working  26 in northeast British Columbia.  There was a big  27 overlap of documents, all the documents that were in  28 Prince George pertaining to the region, the northwest  29 region, and then I had access to documents in the  30 provincial archive in Victoria.  31 Q   You said "access".  You mean you went to the archive?  32 A   No.  I had a research assistant whom I directed.  I  33 was the -- pressed beyond endurance at this point and  34 I knew that there were two big collections of  35 documents in Victoria; that I needed to have some good  36 sense of the IG 10 files and Fish and Wildlife files.  37 Q   Now, I'm trying to get a sense of the period that you  38 spent with respect to the film and the case.  You  39 don't have a diary or anything like that, I take it?  40 A   No, I don't.  I don't keep a diary, no.  41 Q   Would it be fair to say that you embarked upon some  42 research in 1983 with a view to the film?  43 A   No, no.  I don't think so.  I embarked upon research  44 in 1982 with a view to helping provide a background  45 account of Wet'suwet'en life and economy.  It was --  46 I'm sure in my mind that it would be exciting to do a  47 film in that area because I've always liked the area a 15481  1 lot and it's beautiful and so on.  2 Q   You received a letter from Mr. Sterritt?  3 A   Yes.  I talked about his enthusiasm about doing a  4 film, but the '83 work was not in any way linked to  5 doing a film.  It was linked to the Kemano Project.  6 Q   All right.  But then in '85 you got the go ahead on  7 the film and that's what the documents that are in  8 Volume I refer to?  9 A   No.  I didn't get the go ahead on the film until late  10 '85.  In fact, it looked as though the film was not  11 going to go ahead until, I think, about two weeks  12 before we began filming.  The first response from --  13 we were getting the funds together and it looked as  14 though they weren't coming together, so I conducted  15 all the research spring, summer, '85 thinking the film  16 probably wouldn't happen, hoping it would, and then  17 suddenly the funds were there.  18 Q   And then you did a considerable amount of work in '86  19 after you had been instructed to prepare a report?  20 A  Well, I did work all through '85 on aspects of this.  21 Q   Aspects which would be useful in the report?  22 A   Yes.  I'm researching all the time in that period.  23 Q   Yes.  And in April of '86, as we have seen, you  24 entered into a contract with the tribal council to  25 produce the report?  26 A   That's right, yes.  27 Q   Yes.  And you're unable to assist me by giving me a  28 sense of the elapsed time that you spent doing work in  29 connection with this case and the film other than the  30 statement that you have made at several times that  31 your participant observation wasn't as extensive as  32 you would have liked?  33 A  Well, I lived in the area in '83.  34 Q   For how long?  35 A   From September to Christmas, a short visit, and made a  36 visit in '84.  There were two visits in '84 that were  37 short visits, and this is all exploring background  38 still, and then began continuous work in spring, '85,  39 remained in the area until mid-September, then worked  40 in London on the material we generated in August,  41 September, '85 until January, '86, then went back to  42 Hazelton spring of '86 to resume work in the field and  43 to work out how I would do a longer period and  44 arrangements of bringing the family over and so on,  45 and we all moved over there in September -- August,  46 '86 and remained until March, '87.  47 Q   Well, the summary of your opinion is dated January the 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9 MR.  10 MR.  11  12 MR.  13  14  15  16  17  18 THE  19 THE  2 0 MR.  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  15482  15th, 1987?  Yes.  All right.  And you rely upon a number of the  plaintiff's other experts in your opinion, do you not?  Heather Harris is very important to me.  And Susan Marsden?  Susan Marsden, she was useful because of her immense  understanding of the adaawk and --  GOLDIE:  And Barbara Lane?  JACKSON:  I don't think Mr. Brody finished his question in  relation to Susan Marsden.  GOLDIE:  Q   I'm not particularly interested in the areas.  I just  want to know if he relied upon them, that's all.  A   It's a matter of great importance to me the way in  which I did and did not rely on people.  It goes to  the —  COURT:  Mr. Goldie's question was as to who you relied upon.  WITNESS:  Then I misunderstood.  Then continue.  Sorry.  GOLDIE:  Q   Heather Harris?  A   Yes.  Susan Marsden, Barbara Lane?  Very, very small ways, yes.  Anybody else?  I would sometimes seek advice from Bob Galois on  historical matters.  And Mr. Morrell?  Advice on biological matters.  Yes.  And Mr. Overstall provided you with some  references?  Yes, because of his knowledge of some of the detail,  yes .  And it was to him that you provide the summary of your  opinion?  Through him?  Through him, yes.  I don't understand what you mean through him.  I said was it to him that you supplied — you  submitted the summary of your opinion?  No.  I think it was to Mr. Rush.  All right.  Did Mr. Overstall have any comments to  make with respect to either your summary or the final  opinion?  Yes.  I think he probably did.  Editorial comments and assistance?  Editorial comments, certainly.  He's a good editor.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A 1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  46  47  15483  Was he responsible for any of the deletions that you  made in the final report as compared with the draft  that we were supplied with on March the 31st?  No.  No.  I'm the only person responsible for  deletions, apart from a typo.  Another person that you relied upon was Antonia Mills?  For some Wet'suwet'en genealogy, yes.  Part of the deletions that I see as between the draft  and the final report is the references to the experts  with the exception, I think, of Heather Harris.  Despite the deletions you -- the report represents  whatever advice and reliance you placed upon them?  The report, like all anthropological work of this  kind, depends upon many kinds of expertise.  It  doesn't rely upon the expertise usually in an  extensive way, but it does depend upon expertise.  There are things I don't know about salmon.  There are  things I don't know about the adaawk that are not  within the area of my own particular inquiry.  Genealogical information is incredibly complex and  elusive and I require help in these kinds of areas.  And with a view to archives, for example, a person who  has really good firsthand experience of a archive can  be very helpful.  Yes.  All right.  Well, let me go back to the Apsassin  references that you make.  I think the Beaver are  Athabascans?  That's right, yes.  And as are the Wet'suwet'en?  Yes.  In language you mean?  Well, in derivation, if I may put it that way?  Yes.  You agree with me on that?  Yes.  Do you say your study of the Beaver people assisted  you in your study of the Wet'suwet'en?  All anthropological work is cumulative and every study  helps the next one. There are ways in which the study  of the Beaver help study the Wet'suwet'en, because the  work among the Beaver had given me a good sense of the  seasonal round of Athabascans and where summer  gathering place fits into the seasonal round, for  example.  I believe you characterized the Beaver as being able,  in common with all other Athabascan societies, to use  their flexibility and extensive hunting territories to  keep themselves well hidden from prying eyes.  I'm 1  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  28  Q  29  30  31  32  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  15484  referring to Tab 2, my lord, which is Mr. Brody's  opinion on the Apsassin case.  And on page 2 you --  the second paragraph.  And do you see the page 2 at  the -- not the second paragraph, the bottom paragraph?  Above the quote, the quote on page 2?  Below the quote on page 2, the last three lines.  You  say:  "At the same time, in common with all other  Athabascan societies, the Indians of  northeast British Columbia use their  flexibility and extensive hunting  territories to keep themselves well hidden  from prying or judgmental eyes."  There's a qualification required here of Athabascan.  I realize, as I'm looking at it, it should be northern  or interior Athabascan societies.  This wouldn't apply  to coast Athabascan or southwest United States  Athabascan.  Well, I don't know anything about the Navahoe or the  southwest United States Athabascan, but do you include  the Wet'suwet'en?  No.  I would not regard them as coastal  Wet'suwet'en -- coastal Athabascan.  It wouldn't apply  in the same way to the Tahltan, for example, or the  people to the south of the Wet'suwet'en.  Well, I had the impression from your opinion -- and  I'm referring to page 26 of your opinion where you  talk about the invisibility to outsiders of Gitksan  and Wet'suwet'en jurisdiction.  I had the impression  that you were extending this invisibility from prying  eyes to the Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en?  Not by virtue of the same circumstances  anthropologically.  There is an anthropological line  to be drawn and it is often drawn between the interior  Athabascan and the peoples on the coast, which isn't  to say there aren't cultural traits that are shared.  You -- you said with respect to the Beaver that they  were a fascinating combination of mobility and  extensive hunting territories and some are residents  at a predetermined meeting place.  Wasn't that the way  you characterized the Beaver?  Yes.  Yes.  Isn't that the way you characterize the  Wet'suwet'en?  No.  The Wet'suwet'en have a summer gathering place or 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  15485  thing that looks like a summer gathering place in the  form of Moricetown, because I think I pointed out in  my evidence the other day that summer gathering place  is not of the same status as is that summer gathering  place among interior Athabascan people, simply by  virtue of it being a major economic resource.  The  Moricetown and Hagwilget communities are centres of  economic life and there are a number of consequences  that flow from this anthropologically, including a  preoccupation with territoriality.  Once there is a  preoccupation with territoriality, then you cease to  have that simple coincidence between coast Athabascan  and interior Athabascan.  Yes.  Well, we'll come to that.  I think it's important that I make clear what the  answer to the question is.  That's very helpful.  You also characterize the  Beavers as a hunting system which despite a multitude  of pressures as late as the 1940's represented the  most complete hunter-gatherer system anywhere in the  new world?  What page are you on there?  3, the second-to-last paragraph.  Yes.  I'm referring to the 1940's.  I say:  "It could  be argued that they represented this extreme clear  form of hunting-gathering system", yes.  Yes.  You agree with what I've said?  I agree that what I'm saying is in the 1940's it could  be argued that.  Yes.  I believe I --  I can't remember exactly what you said.  I'm reluctant  to agree to your referring to what you say.  Well, I'll try and overcome that.  Thanks.  The -- you appear to classify both the Wet'suwet'en  and the Gitksan as falling in part within this  category of hunter-gatherers?  Yes.  And the -- the Beaver hunter-gatherers had a system  which saw dispersal through the hunting grounds and  small groups and, as you put it a few minutes ago,  concentration in a traditional spot in the summer?  Yes.  Yes.  That's right.  Yes.  You put it this way in the Apsassin opinion,  page 5, the second to last -- or the third complete  paragraph.  You said, and I quote: 15486  1 "Throughout the seasons I have thus far  2 described Dunne-Za families would be  3 scattered in small groups rarely of more  4 than five or six individuals.  With the  5 arrival of summer, however, all the small  6 groups made their way to summer gathering  7 grounds."  8  9 Now, with with respect to the Wet'suwet'en, you put it  10 in somewhat similar terms, did you not?  11 A   Can you show me where?  12 Q   Page 61.  You say -- in the paragraph that begins with  13 "The seasonal round", you say:  14  15 "The seasonal round of resource harvesting  16 for the Wet'suwet'en has much in common with  17 some other Athapaskan groups."  18  19 And then you include the Dunne-Za in that group, don't  20 you?  21 A   That's right, yes.  22 Q   And you go on to say:  23  24 "Athapaskan families spend most of each  25 year - from autumn dry-meat preparation, to  26 winter hunting and trapping smaller species,  27 to spring Beaver harvest - moving in small,  28 nuclear family groups, from cabin to cabin,  29 or between villages of five or six houses  30 inside the territories.  The Wet'suwet'en  31 seasonal round typifies this pattern, and  32 demonstrates the flexibility characteristic  33 of many northern hunting peoples."  34  35 That's very similar to your description, and indeed  36 you make specific reference to the Beaver people?  37 A   Yes.  There is a similarity.  38 Q   Yes.  39 A  Apparent similarity.  There is, of course, immense  40 difference also that pertains to these issues,  41 especially to the moving around and what shapes the  42 moving around and the concern with territory and the  43 nature of the territoriality that shapes them moving  44 around.  So here I am looking at that.  The whole  45 purpose of this passage is to look at that in  46 Wet'suwet'en society which is shared amongst  47 northern -- many northern hunting peoples. 1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  46  47  Q  15487  Yes.  There are a number of differences, of course.  For instance, the Beaver use their hunting territories  as a common territory, don't they?  Simply stated, yes.  And indeed that was so until there was trapline  registration in the Beaver area; that they -- they use  the hunting territories without regard to internal  boundaries?  There were family conventions always, it seems, among  the Beaver and trapline registration made little  difference to those boundaries.  I'm sorry.  I didn't pick that up.  The trapline registration made surprisingly little  difference to the way in which the Beaver use their  land.  Well, didn't you suggest to the Court in the Apsassin  case that the confinement to smaller areas arising out  of trapline registration would divide the people?  Whereabouts is this, if you can show me?  Tab 3, page 1839, my lord.  It's the first page under  that.  His lordship put this observation to you:  "I don't understand how the confinement then  to smaller areas would divide the people.  Would you explain that, because it seems to  me that at first blush the wider the area  you're roaming about, the more you're likely  to be divided.  That's what I don't  understand."  You said:  "The more you're roaming, the more the  hunting system can work well and the more  that as you roam, you will criss-cross with  other peoples paths.  I guess that's what I  have in mind."  You see that?  Yes.  You were describing, were you not, the — what you  consider to be the adverse effect of the trapline  registration which would inhibit this roaming?  Insofar as people were trapping on their registered  traplines, this would mean that they didn't meet so  often --  Right. 1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  17  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  A  46  47  Q  15488  -- in the winter as they might have before.  And you were contrasting that with the criss-crossing  that went on when people were using the territory --  the territories in which they hunted as a common?  That's right.  Now, of course, with the Wet'suwet'en it is said to --  there is said to be a rigidly exclusive possession of  internal territories marked in -- possessed by clans  or houses?  Are you asking me a question?  Yes.  Is that a correct characterization?  Well, I think it's a bit more complicated than that,  as I said.  Well, it may be more complicated and you can explain  why it is more complicated, but would you agree with  me as a general proposition that the Wet'suwet'en  system is characterized by a rigid sense of  exclusivity marked by internal boundaries based upon  clans or houses?  There is a strong sense of exclusivity.  I'm bridling  at your use of the word 'rigid', I think, because  within Wet'suwet'en law, there are provisions, as you  know, through Neggedeldes.  Take out the word 'rigid'.  Fine.  And you characterize -- you'd agree with that  characterization?  Yes.  Right.  As you put it at -- well, I -- now, another  aspect of this that I want to draw your attention to  was that in your evidence in the Apsassin case, you  said, if I understand it correctly, that there are no  chiefs in any sense with the Beaver.  Am I right in  that?  I'd like to have a look at where I said this.  All right.  If you'd look under Tab 3, the last page,  1923.  This is just the last page of a considerable  exchange, but my understanding is that your evidence  was to the effect that the Beaver did not have a  decision-making process as we understand it and you  had described how when people go hunting, it is not an  apparent decision.  It is all virtually spontaneous, I  won't say combustion, but mental telepathy; is that  right?  It isn't planned in the way in which we would plan  things, that's right.  And his lordship said: 15489  1  2 "Yes, but that's very nice to go carefully  3 and slow, but you've got to go somewhere.  4 What are you going to do?  What do you do?"  5  6 And you said:  7  8 "Let me be precise.  He"...  9  10 Now, you're talking there about an anthropologist or  11 somebody who is going to explain things to these  12 people.  13  14 "He would say you have to talk to all the  15 people individually.  There isn't a person  16 who represents them.  That's what he would  17 have said.  There cannot be a person who  18 represents this kind of culture.  It doesn't  19 make anthropological sense."  20  21 Now, without going into your evidence in great detail,  22 would you not agree with me that you emphasized that  23 these Athabascan peoples did not have a hierarchy of  24 decision making or chiefs?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   Yes.  And this was evidence that you were giving in  27 support of the claim in that case that their consent  28 had thought not been given to a surrender?  29 A   I think my evidence was suggesting that getting  30 consent would be a rather complicated matter in a  31 culture that didn't have a hierarchy or a system of  32 representatives.  33 Q   Now, in any event, your -- your evidence, as you've  34 described it a minute ago or as I described it to you,  35 and as I understand you agreed, has marked this  36 absence of this hierarchical decision-making process  37 in the Beaver culture?  38 A  My evidence sought to describe how the decision making  39 does work and doesn't work among the Beaver people,  40 and part of the problem of describing the  41 decision-making process, I think in my evidence, was  42 that the idea that there was -- that there isn't a  43 hierarchy and that creates problems and -- of  44 description and process.  45 Q   And there weren't really chiefs?  46 A  Among the Dunne-Za?  47 Q   Yes. 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  2 4 MR.  25  26  27  28  29  30  31 THE  32 MR.  33 THE  34 MR.  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  15490  A   No, there weren't.  Q   And in retrospect now, would you say that your failure  to identify a decision-making process was simply  something that illuded you or are you still of that  opinion?  A  My opinion is based on my extensive work in the area.  Q   I'm asking you, as you're giving evidence today, would  you now say there was a subtle and distinctive process  of decision making that escaped my observation at the  time?  A  Well, I always said there was a subtle decision-making  process, and my evidence in my research into the  Dunne-Za culture indicated to me that this was a  decision-making process that was very hard to describe  and very difficult to understand.  I think that is at  the heart of what I'm doing.  Q   Well, the point about it is that you took the view  that there was no institution for collective decision  making with the Beaver?  A   That's right.  That doesn't prevent there being a  subtle process of decision making.  I'm asking  questions about the institutions, not about decision  making per se.  GOLDIE:  At page 1915 there is a quotation from your written  opinion that was filed as an exhibit, and you say:  "Moreover, these were people who had no  procedure that fits Euro-Canadian  conceptions"...  COURT:  Sorry.  Do I have that, Mr. Goldie?  GOLDIE:  Yes.  It's under Tab 3, my lord, and there are --  COURT:  I still have 1839 in Tab 3.  GOLDIE:  Q   If you start with 1839 and just keep on going, it  comes to 1915.  Do you have it, Mr. Brody?  A   Yes.  Q   You -- the question that was put to you quoted from  your opinion; is that not correct?  A   That's right.  Q   And your opinion reads:  "Moreover, these were people who had no  procedure that fits Euro-Canadian  conceptions of consent.  They did not use  voting and had no decision-making 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  16  A  17  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  40  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  15491  institutions at which consent could be  reached.  Dunne-Za/Cree culture does not  have any equivalent to government or  managing bureaucracy.  Just as there are no  persons with these kinds of roles, there are  no places, no scheduled events, where groups  would convene in order to make collective  decisions."  That was and is your opinion?  Yes.  But your evidence here with respect to this particular  Athabascan society, the Wet'suwet'en, is there is a  visible institution of authority and decision making,  namely the feast; is that right?  I think, yes, that on the whole the institutions of  the Wet'suwet'en society are much more visible than  the institutions of the Dunne-Za society.  Yes.  An example of that is the feasts.  The feast?  An example of the institutions.  Is the feast?  Yes.  Yes.  And that is an essential part of the evidence  that you're giving in support of the plaintiff's  claim, isn't it?  What is an essential part?  That the feast is a visible means of decision making  and is an institution of authority?  That's one of the conclusions I came to in the course  of working in the area.  Yes.  But it is an essential part of the conclusions  that you reach in your opinion with respect to the  continuity of this culture?  One of the things that has continued in spite pressure  based upon it is the feast, yes.  Yes.  Now, one other aspect about the -- these two  Athabascan cultures to which you have referred, is it  so that a mixed economy characterizes the Beaver  today?  I've done a lot of work into the mixed economy among  the Beaver, yes.  I'm sorry.  Is the answer to my question yes?  Mixed economy is a feature of Dunne-Za life.  Today?  Well, when I was last there. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  15492  Well, it was your opinion that it has been so since  the 1940's?  Yes.  That is to say coinciding with the arrival of white  spread settlement in their area?  You could say that the mixed economy goes back to the  early days of the fur trade, so from predate 1940.  I  mean insofar as trading becomes an element in Dunne-Za  economy, then it's a mixed economy, and guiding.  A  mixed economy is a slowly evolving phenomenon.  Yes.  But for a hunter-gatherer, a mixed economy is  marked by involvement in farming; isn't that correct?  No.  Involvement in a whole range of economic sectors.  Farming would be one such possible sector; trapping  could be another, wage labour, transfer payments and  so on.  I mean the whole point of the mixed economy  analysis is that it locates the economy as a series of  sectors.  Yes.  But you singled out farming when you were  talking about the Beaver?  It was particularly significant for many of them, yes.  It was a hallmark for you of a mixed economy?  No.  I don't think so.  What was or is?  I think I just said the whole point about the mixed  economy is that it is a slow evolution of economic  sectors.  You become with all contact of hunting and  gathering, trapping for trade in the case of the  Beaver.  In the case of the Wet'suwet'en, trade long  predates contact.  In the case of the Beaver, trapping  for trade becomes a sector in the economy and then as  you follow the history of the economy of the people,  in this case between the Dunne-Za, as I understand,  one can see how other elements come in, other ways of  earning a living, spending, economic --  Page 1842 you were asked a question.  That is under  Tab 3, my lord.  You were dealing with the last of  four topics and Mr. Pape was asking you about the  coming of sufficient numbers of farmers and the  erection of fences, and so on, and the clearing of  land in the area around the summer gathering place.  "What impact did that have on the role  or the importance of a summer gathering  place for the people?  A   It wouldn't make it less important.  It  might make it more important insofar as 15493  1 the people who went to the summer  2 gathering place wanted to play their  3 part in the agricultural frontier, and  4 it's worth saying that the mixed economy  5 in the 1940's -- the Indian mixed  6 economy -- already shows Indians working  7 for farmers."  8  9 So you paid some attention to that aspect of it,  10 didn't you?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Now, the Wet'suwet'en became involved in a mixed  13 economy with the arrival of the first settlers in the  14 Bulkley Valley?  15 A  Well, once again, the fur trade is part of  16 Wet'suwet'en life.  Trading with other cultures is  17 part of Wet'suwet'en life before any white settlers,  18 so the economic structure of Wet'suwet'en life is  19 quite different from the economic structure of  20 Dunne-Za life, but the mixed economy, as I'm using the  21 term, would become relevant to the analysis of  22 Wet'suwet'en life once they're involved in the fur  23 trade with Europeans.  24 Q   Yes.  All right.  I'm going to come to that.  But with  25 particular participation in agricultural economy, it  26 would be the arrival of the white settlers who were  27 engaging in that activity that would be important?  28 A  As I understand it, the Wet'suwet'en were guides and  29 packers for people coming to the area before there was  30 much agricultural settlement and kept horses for this  31 purpose, cleared land, made hay fields and so on.  So  32 there's a way in which some of the old Wet'suwet'en  33 villages, for example -- and I think Dizkle,  34 Barrett —  35 Q   Which is the first one, please?  36 A   Dizkle.  I'm hesitating because I'm not sure how you  37 spell Dizkle.  38 Q   That's the mythical village, is it?  39 A   The one for which the archaeologists have been unable  40 to find that -- well, I may be mistaken.  I thought  41 Dizkle continued to be a village of which people  42 lived, three or four families lived there.  The  43 Lehtait is another one.  These are all places where  44 Wet'suwet'en had cleared land and grew hay to keep  45 horses, and this may predate the agricultural frontier  46 as far as horses might have been useful for other  47 purposes. 1  Q  2  3  A  4  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  28  Q  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  46  47  15494  It was the reflection of the introduction of the  horse?  The horse came into the area -- came into northwest  British Columbia before Europeans did.  Well, that's not the evidence in the case so far, Mr.  Brody.  I may be mistaken.  It was my understanding from my  work in northeast British Columbia.  Mr. Joseph has told us that there are no horse legends  or anything related to cattle, nothing related to a  wheel, for instance.  And as far as any of his  people's legends are concerned, the -- there does not  appear to have been the introduction to the horse  until apparently the telegraph company went through.  Actually, I'm referring now in the Biinii stories when  Biinii makes his visit to heaven, he has an encounter  with sky dogs, I think they're called.  You refer to that?  Yes.  Anyway, that would be a -- in the 1860's and the  1870's?  When horses first came?  Yes.  I don't know if the -- if they might have come with  earlier traders and explorers in the area.  I'm  thinking of the 1826 visit by traders.  I'm not sure.  I don't know.  Well, if you have any evidence that you wish to direct  my attention to that would suggest that horses arrived  before the telegraph company went through in the  1860's, I'd be glad if you'd refer me to it.  But, in  any event, the -- the arrival of the horse and the  adoption of the horse and the use of the horse for  packing resulted in the use of land for grazing;  that's your evidence?  That's my understanding, yes.  Right.  But it would not be until people who arrived  who farmed that there would be the tillage of the  land, would there?  Well, missionaries encourage people to grow gardens.  Yes?  And I don't know again.  I'm wondering what the  history is of the garden in the area.  I don't know.  But the example that would be available to alert  intelligent people who were, in your words in the  Apsassin case, interested in participating in the  agricultural frontier, that example, the use of the 1  2  3  4  ]  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  i  16  17  18  A   '  19  20  ]  21  22  23  24  Q  25  i  26  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A   '  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  i  41  42  Q  43  44  45  46  A  4 7 MR.  GOLDIE  15495  technology of the plow, for instance, would become  available and visible in the area with the arrival of  settlers as opposed to people who were packing or  miners?  In the case of the Dunne-Za in northeast B.C.,  participation in the agricultural frontier centred on  people's skills with horses and hiring themselves out  as cowboys.  It wasn't to do with creating farms for  their own use.  So if you're -- I don't quite see the  analogy here.  I'm talking about technology for farming.  Technology  is by way of example, is it not?  Um-hum.  So people that were tilling the soil, they would be  doing so in emulation of other people who brought in  implements and used them in a certain way; isn't that  the case?  Well, technology's by way of example and by way of  instruction.  Again, I'm wondering what the  missionaries did here.  I wonder if the missionaries  encouraged the people to plow or create gardens, but  on a large scale I'm sure it would be farmers who  would be seen to be breaking the ground.  Well, I can assist you with respect to the  missionaries, and I'll do that in a minute, but I'm  putting it to you that the Wet'suwet'en participation  in an agricultural economy would not take place until  the first settlers arrived?  That's quite likely, yes.  Now, that is, as you put it, in the -- around the  beginning -- the very end of the last century?  That's right.  Yes.  That's when the Wet'suwet'en would see people  planting, farming, using horses and cattle and so on?  Well, in the early days of farming I imagine would  have been clearing land and grazing it rather than any  extensive agricultural procedures.  Well, clearing land.  Or using already cleared land.  In fact, it was the  Wet'suwet'en who had cleared land for their horses  by -- we know by the early 1900's.  Well, you say the first farmers moved in at the very  end of the last century.  I'm referring to your  opinion at page 114.  A farmer is a person who intends  to make a living from the soil, isn't that correct?  Yes.  :  Yes.  Thank you. 15496  1 THE COURT:  Is it convenient to adjourn, Mr. Goldie?  2 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  That will be fine.  3 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will recess.  5 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT)  6 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  7 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie.  8 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you, my lord.  My lord, perhaps a number  9 might be -- this orange book might now be marked as an  10 exhibit and as we go through the tabs to be accorded  11 the usual dash.  12 THE COURT:  What's the next exhibit number?  13 THE REGISTRAR:  The next number is 995, my lord.  14 THE COURT:  All right.  15 (EXHIBIT 995:  A.G.B.C cross-exam book)  16 MR. GOLDIE:  And the extracts from "Inishkillane" as dash 1 and  17 the extracts from Mr. Brody's opinion in the Apsassin  18 case as dash 2.  19 THE COURT:  Yes.  20 (EXHIBIT 995-1:  Tab 1 - "Inishkillane" by H. Brody)  21 (EXHIBIT 995-2:  Tab 2 - Brody report on Apsassin  22 case)  23 MR. GOLDIE:  And the extracts from the proceedings at trial dash  24 3.  25 (EXHIBIT 995-3:  Tab 3 - Trial proceeding transcript  26 extract)  27 THE COURT:  That's as far as we got, I think.  28 MR. GOLDIE:  29 Q   And that's as far as we got, yes.  30 Mr. Brody, as I suggested to you a few minutes  31 ago, you had portrayed the Athabascan society that you  32 were describing in the Apsassin case as lacking in  33 institutional means for arriving at decisions.  I  34 don't mean to completely sum up your evidence, but I  35 do so -- that description is not intended to be  36 exhaustive, but that was an essential part of your --  37 A   Yes.  I just keep adding the proviso that what I'm  38 concerned within that work is the visibility of the  39 institutions.  Of course, their present is whether or  40 not they're the kinds of things that we can see.  41 Q   Well, you are critical of anthropologists for not  42 perceiving things which are hidden from ordinary eyes,  43 but I take it that when you made the statement that  44 you did at page 1915 of the proceedings of Apsassin --  45 under Tab 3, my lord.  You said in your report:  46  47 "Moreover, these were people who had no 15497  procedure that fits Euro-Canadian  conceptions of consent.  They did not use  voting and had no decision-making  institutions at which consent could be  reached."  You were expressing your opinion at that point?  That's right, yes.  Now, the purpose of that evidence was to support an  opinion of yours, if I understand it correctly --  understand it correctly, that chiefs -- that people  who signed surrenders as chiefs would have no real  authority to do so under such a culture as you were  there describing?  They wouldn't have the kind of authority that might be  ascribed to them by the persons who got them to sign,  I think is the thought here.  That was the nature of your evidence?  Yes.  And in the -- in the case at bar, you have, of course,  emphasized --  I'm sorry.  I don't know what the expression 'case at  bar' means.  I say at the case at bar, this case right here.  Oh.  You have emphasized aspects of the Wet'suwet'en  society which indicate that chiefs have real authority  in any sense of the word?  Yes.  They have visible institutions of authority.  30 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  They have visible?  31 THE WITNESS:  Visible institutions of authority.  32 MR. GOLDIE:  33 Q   Yes.  And I take it that the Wet'suwet'en as an  34 Athabascan society was once similar to what you  35 described the Beaver?  36 A   I'm not at all sure about this.  I mean it is possible  37 that the Beaver were once similar to the Wet'suwet'en  38 rather than the Wet'suwet'en once being similar to the  39 Beaver.  I for a while in my anthropological life sort  40 of took for granted the view that Athabascan society  41 had spread over The Rockies heading west and more  42 recently I've been wondering about that and perhaps  43 Athabascan society went the other direction or perhaps  44 went both directions.  I just don't know how I can  45 resolve that question.  46 Q   This uncertainty in your mind arose since you filed  47 your report?  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A 1  A  2  3  Q  4  5  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  A  44  45  46  47  15498  Yes, or since I've been -- I've been reading a lot  more of this kind of literature lately, yes.  Because when you wrote your report, you thought there  was a comparability with respect to the Wet'suwet'en  and other Athabascan groups, including the Dunne-Za of  the Peace River Drainage?  That goes to a different question, I think, the  comparability question.  There is comparability and  there is dissimilarity.  As I said earlier on, there's  a big divide between the coast Athabascans and then  the interior northern Athabascans.  I thought you were  asking about something else a moment ago.  Well, let me go back and see if I can make myself  clear.  I started out by suggesting to you that at one  time the Wet'suwet'en was a hunter-gatherer of the  same kind as you described with respect to the Beaver?  Which is to suggest that the -- the Athabascans of the  coast, including the Wet'suwet'en, have acquired these  visible institutions; is that what you mean?  The -- I don't want to misunderstand you.  You talk  about the Athabascans at the coast.  I'm talking about  the Wet'suwet'en and I am assuming that at one time,  at any rate, you understood the Wet'suwet'en to be an  Athabascan society which came west?  Yes.  At one time I accepted that account of the  spread of Athabascan society, yes.  Now you may think it may have arrived in a different  way?  I wonder.  All right.  If it did come from the -- from the east  and progressed west, I suggest to you that at one time  it resembled the hunter-gatherer that you described in  the Apsassin case?  It depends on the time frame.  Well, I appreciate that that depends on the time  frame.  The question that I put to you was that at one  time -- now, you can select any time frame you want,  but I'm suggesting to you that if the assumption is  made that the Athabascan -- this particular Athabascan  group, the Carriers, of which the Wet'suwet'en are a  branch, came from the east, they shared the  characteristics of a hunter-gatherer?  Yes.  Perhaps I can circumvent the time frame problem  with an answer that goes like this:  If they came from  an east that was boreal forest or savannah lands where  opportunistic roaming hunting would have been an ideal  adaptation, then, yes, that would be the case. 15499  1 Q   And that is -- that is the commonly accepted theory,  2 is it not?  3 A  Well, I think it's a theory in crisis at the moment in  4 anthropology, but --  5 Q   Like so many other things in anthropology?  6 A  All theories have difficult periods during which  7 they're being questioned, perhaps more — with more  8 information than they've ever been questioned before,  9 and that's the evolution of a science, isn't it?  10 Q   The characteristics of the society, the Wet'suwet'en  11 society which you have emphasized in your opinion, are  12 those which I put it to you before support the  13 plaintiffs in their claim to ownership and  14 jurisdiction of the lands which are the subject-matter  15 of this action?  16 A  Well, I don't really know the extent of the  17 plaintiff's claims in this action.  I'm not familiar  18 with all these legal -- the legal back and forth here.  19 I'm attempting to characterize for the benefit of my  20 opinion the nature of Athabascan society and pay some  21 attention to the visibility of its institutions.  22 Q   The -- I'm going to read to you from page 11 of the  23 draft that we were furnished with.  And this part is  24 deleted from your opinion.  2 5 A   Um-hum.  26 MR. GOLDIE:  I quote:  27  28 "This legal action"...  29  30 THE COURT:  Sorry, Mr. Goldie.  Do I have that report?  31 MR. GOLDIE:  32 Q   You do not, my lord.  33 Would you like to have that draft in front of you?  34 A   Yes.  Perhaps it's a good idea.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  Do you have a copy?  36 MR. JACKSON:  I can peek over his shoulders.  37 MR. GOLDIE:  38 Q   You can ignore the exclamation marks or any other  39 thing like that.  40 A   These are your own graffiti.  41 Q   Exactly.  The -- the first sentence to which I refer  42 you to is, and I quote:  43  44 "The legal action that has prompted this  45 opinion has generated extensive research  46 into Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en society and  47 culture." 1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  35  A  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  45  46  47  15500  And that, of course, is true, is it not?  Yes.  That's true.  Why did you take that out?  It seemed irrelevant, I think, to my opinion here.  I see.  The next is at the bottom of that page and it  reads, and I quote:  "This legal action is based on a demand for  recognition of Indian jurisdiction in the  combined Wet'suwet'en -- Gitksan and  Wet'suwet'en house territories.  This  requires anthropological explication of a  new kind."  Now, why did you delete that?  I think probably because I'm not sure that it's true  or was not sure that it was true.  I mean, my idea of  what the legal action is based on is something about  which I don't feel confident.  As I said to you  before, I'm not conversant with the ins and outs of  the legal action.  No.  But it is the shaping force, isn't it?  Of what?  For the anthropological opinion that you've given?  No.  It's not the shaping force.  It's the reason that  I was retained to write this opinion.  Well —  It's quite different from it being the shaping force.  You thought at the time that the existence of that  action required anthropological explanation --  explication of a new kind.  Now, what was new or novel  about the anthropological explication that you were  being called upon to make?  I understood from very early on that what was needed  here by me as an anthropologist was an understanding  of how the institutions of this system worked.  We're  dealing with a system that has visible institutions.  It's a burden on me to understand how they worked.  So in order to -- but you understood that this new or  novel anthropological explication was that which was  required for the purposes of the lawsuit?  I had to answer certain kinds of questions.  I was  asked to try and answer certain kinds of questions as  an anthropologist.  In order to answer these  questions, I required a particular kind of  anthropological account.  I had to go into the nature 1  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  9  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  25  Q  26  27  28  29  30  31  A  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  15501  of the visible institutions and I also had to go into  the less visible part of the culture.  I had to  produce an opinion that relied on evidence going to  both sides and that was, for me anyway, a new kind of  research.  It was the demand for recognition of Indian  jurisdiction and the combined Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  house territories which required the opinion that you  have just described?  As I understood my brief, I had to do research into  the visible and the less visible parts of the culture,  otherwise I could not talk about the jurisdiction.  That may have been how you translated the task before  you, but you characterized it in your mind, Mr. Brody,  as required by a demand for recognition of Indian  jurisdiction in the combined territories?  You're referring to a passage I deleted.  Well, you wrote it, didn't you?  I wrote it, yes, but I looked at it and thought, no,  this does not properly describe what I was doing.  I see.  It's a shorthand, and they're always -- when one's  rewriting, it's shorthands that get reconsidered and  rewritten.  Well, I'll come to that in a minute, but I want to  refer you now to an extract from your book "Maps and  Dreams".  My lord, that's not in the -- in the Exhibit  995 and I'll hand up the —  Do you recognize that as the preface to your book  "Maps and Dreams"?  I wonder which edition this comes from.  This is  something that went through a number of editions, I  believe.  Well, whichever edition it is, you wrote --  I'd just like to know.  Well, I'm not sure that I can tell you right now.  But would you agree with me that whatever edition it  is, it's your preface?  Oh, yes.  Yes.  And you start off by saying, and I quote:  "The hunting societies of the world have  been sentenced to death."  That was your belief at the time you wrote that  preface?  A   If you read on, I explain what I mean by that. 1  Q  2  3  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  15502  Yes.  I'm not -- I'm not going to -- to challenge your  explanation of what you meant by that.  I'm just  asking you if that was your belief at the time you  wrote it?  Yes.  It's -- I'm referring to a process.  In the next  sentence you see they're being condemned by a process.  At page XIII you begin to -- or you get into the  question of the concerns that you had arising out of  the nature of your brief in that case.  You were  employed by government, were you not?  Yes.  Indirectly.  Well, the funding had been obtained from the  Government of Canada?  That's right, yes.  Yes.  And it was instigated by the prospect of a gas  pipeline through northeastern British Columbia?  That's right.  And you say at the second complete paragraph on page  XIII:  "Such justification notwithstanding it was  impossible not to feel apprehensive about  the advantages of such research work to the  people themselves."  That is to say to the -- to the band that you spent  some 18 months; is that correct?  Well, to the Dunne-Za/Cree.  Pardon?  I think there were more than -- I worked in more than  one community.  When you say "the band", you're  referring to, I imagine, one reserve.  In fact here  I'm meaning the people of the Treaty 8 area in  northeast B.C.  Thank you.  You say:  "Even the best political organizations happy  to have secured government funding for their  research might find that they are  unconsciously working against their  constituent's own interest."  That was something that troubled you, that you were in  effect being used or possibly being used as a cat's  paw, or the people that that employed you were being  used as a cat's paw.  Do you understand what I mean?  Oh, yes. 1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  A  15  16  Q  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  15503  And you agree with that?  It's always an anxiety, yes.  An anxiety, yes.  You summarize that concern at the  last sentence in the paragraph.  You say:  "When I set out in the summer of 1978 on a  first exploratory trip to northeast British  Columbia, I was haunted by the thought that  must have bothered many researchers.  You  might find out five or even ten years later  whom you were really working for."  That's the anxiety that you had?  Yes.  There's always an anxiety that you are providing  information that can be used in all kinds of ways.  Yes.  It's a problem in anthropology going back to the  1920's and '30's.  Yes.  You never know who's going to read the report?  You never know what kind of information you're going  to make public.  Yes.  I mean, for example, you might identify in a report a  really good area for hunting moose, as arose in the  northeast study.  The people have very special moose  hunting areas and I might write a report in which I  describe where these moose hunting areas are to be  found and how to get to them and then sports hunters  in the area can go in, and this is the kind of thing  that would be very disturbing to the people involved,  or in the case, perhaps, of another area, one might  describe burned off lands where there is grazing  available and this could be made available.  That is -- that may be an example, but one that has  troubled anthropologists is gaining the sympathy and  understanding and trust of the people that they are  reporting on and making public information which  invades or is seen to invade the privacy of those  people.  That's a well known anthropological concern,  isn't it?  It increases their vulnerability.  Exactly.  And it may increase their vulnerability in a  psychological way, not just where the moose are?  I'm not sure what you have in mind.  The sense that their privacy has been invaded.  Some people worry about that much more than others.  What's your position on the spectrum of worry? 15504  1 A   Some cultures worry about this much more than others.  2 Q   It is though -- you recognize that as a basic problem  3 for anthropologists, especially those who do field  4 work?  5 A   There are certain classes of information in every  6 culture about which people are very sensitive.  7 Q   Yes.  All right.  Now, you go on to say:  8  9 "Maps and Dreams presents both findings and  10 the way in which a project was shaped by a  11 group of Indians."  12  13 What you have done is to acknowledge that this book is  14 a report of the work you did there in a manner which  15 is -- reflects the way in which the people involved  16 want it to be reported?  17 A   No.  It reflects the way in which they show to me  18 their lives.  The structure of the book is alternating  19 chapters, anecdotal chapter followed by social  20 scientific chapter followed by anecdotal chapter.  21 This is an indication of the way in which people took  22 me on their lands or gave me, as it were, stories.  23 They shared journeys with me and they designed many of  24 those journeys, and I report those journeys as  25 anecdotes in the book in alternating chapters.  The  26 other chapters are straightforward social scientific  27 chapters not at all shaped by the people.  28 Q   Yes.  You go on to say:  29  30 "It is a book of anecdotes as well as a  31 research report, its structure being the  32 result of an attempt to meet two different  33 needs.  The problem is one of audience or  34 the intimately related one of documentary  35 devices or an awkward tension between a wish  36 to maintain a sense of universal concern  37 without losing a feeling for a particular  38 place.  In the case of either an  39 ethnographic monograph or a report whose  40 purposes include an encyclopaedic coverage  41 of the grounds, these problems can arise but  42 are not intrinsic.  In the case of writings  43 that grow from and have their significance  44 and resistance to colonialism, the problems  45 can be overwhelming."  46  47 Now, it is the latter case that you have confronted, 15505  1 is it not?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And it is the latter case that you have dealt with in  4 this -- in your report in the case at bar?  5 A   No, it doesn't.  It's a completely different kind of  6 work.  In northeast B.C. I was taken right into the  7 lands that white people normally are not taken into.  8 I was asked and expected to make my findings widely  9 available and I was, therefore, set a very difficult  10 problem.  On the one hand I  was provided with the  11 intimacies of the people's way of life and on the  12 other hand because of the people's belief in fact --  13 and this I think we talked about some days ago -- they  14 hoped that what I discovered could somehow be used to  15 inform as wide a range of people as possible so that  16 thus informed, their conditions would be improved or  17 the threats to their land would be reduced.  And that  18 set me a very serious writing problem, social science  19 problem, and I dealt with it in a number of ways,  20 alternating chapters being one device, changing  21 everybody's names being another.  22 Q   Yes.  23 A  And none of those -- or almost none of those  24 conditions apply here.  25 Q   No.  I'll come to that.  You -- skipping a  26 paragraph -- well, the next paragraph:  27  28 "When social scientific work is undertaking  29 at least in part to convey other people's  30 sense of their needs, the problems are as  31 much political as they are methodological."  32  33 You agree with that?  34 A  Well, it goes on to explain that.  35 Q   Yes.  36 A   It goes on to say what I just said, I think.  37 Q   Yes.  All right.  Let me go on.  38  39 "Those who wish or have data must therefore  40 allow some kind of research"...  41  42 A   Those who wish or -- sorry?  43 MR. JACKSON:  There is a line you missed out.  44 MR. GOLDIE:  45 Q  46 "Those who wish or are obliged to state  47 their interests and even negotiate their 15506  1 future must have data and must therefore  2 allow some kind of research, and those who  3 carry out such research necessarily enter  4 into a very distinctive kind of relationship  5 with the people whose interests they are  6 expected to serve.  The research itself is  7 part of a set of processes that on the one  8 hand may substantially determine the  9 findings, yet on the other hand may go far  10 beyond them."  11  12 And then you go on to say:  13  14 "To show how the work in northeast British  15 Columbia was soon inseparable from what the  16 people have wanted it to be like, it is best  17 to begin with a story about the pick-up  18 truck that came with the job."  19  2 0 And then you go on to say that:  21  22 "Before I was accepted by the people, I had  23 to get their minds directed away from this  24 truck to me."  25  26 Is that right?  27 A  Well, not get their minds directed away from the truck  28 to me, but I had to be living in a way which meant  29 that I could be taken on their terms into the bush.  30 Q   Yes.  And that was the way in which they shaped what  31 they wanted you to report?  32 A   They shaped the journeys into the bush, as I just  33 described and as is reflected in the anecdotal  34 chapters of the report.  And the other thing they did  35 was shape the scope of the research, that is to say  36 the topics at issue.  They don't shape the truth or  37 falsity of my own conclusions and they don't shape the  38 conclusions themselves, of course.  39 Q   No.  But it was in the sense of assisting them in what  40 you perceived to be colonialism that you wrote this  41 book?  42 A   They were extremely alarmed by the prospect of the  43 Alaska Highway Pipeline and needed to negotiate with  44 whatever was coming down this line towards them.  In  45 order thus to negotiate, they felt a strong need and  46 others felt a strong need, including branches of  47 government, for basic information, and I was asked to 1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  23  24  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  31  32  A  33  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  Q  15507  provide basic information with the help of which the  dangers could be assessed --  But —  -- and perhaps the disadvantages mitigated.  But the book was written for the purpose of assisting  them to resist what you perceived to be colonialism,  isn't that so?  No.  The book was written in order to convey the  people's predicament.  The people believed that if the  facts are there before us, their predicament will  improve.  Part of their defence is information,  despite the privacy problem.  But didn't your reports provide that?  I'm talking  about your book now, not your report.  They want the information to be widely understood.  Yes.  Thank you.  Available.  Now, in this case you -- I suggest to you that you  were received into the community with the intention of  disseminating information that they wanted to get out?  Partly, yes, on the same grounds.  The facts are  believed in in these cultures, much more perhaps than  in our own.  They believe that if others know them,  they will respect them.  Right.  And this is a great importance to all cultures, of  course, to be respected.  And the -- as you point out in the "Maps and Dreams",  you protected the identity of your informants through  the device of anonymity and the use of fictitious  names?  Once I was writing for a large audience, yes.  In my  early reports, which I ensured only had very narrow  circulation, I think I had all the real names in them.  On "Skid Row", for instance, you don't reveal the  names of your informants?  No.  I don't even reveal the name of the town.  Yes.  And on the -- your report with respect to the  Eskimo --  "People's Land".  -- on "People's Land" --  "The People's Land".  -- you don't refer to people's names except in the  acknowledgement section?  That's right.  The names are changed.  There again,  that was a book for general distribution.  Yes. 1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  40  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  15508  Though again, as I recall now, there was a report that  preceded the book to the Department of Indian Affairs  in which names were the true names.  Of your informants?  Everybody I talk about.  Yes.  Now, in standard anthropological literature that  is going to be disseminated, whether in learned texts  or otherwise, it is not common to reveal the names of  informants, is it?  Oh, I think —  Isn't that one of the ways of reconciling this dilemma  that I referred to a few minutes ago of getting as  close inside the skins of people and at the same time  protecting their sense of privacy?  It varies tremendously from anthropologist to  anthropologist.  I think the stronger tradition  anthropology is to use all real names.  There may be  another tradition.  I would have to think for a while  about who does what.  The -- there are -- there is a code of ethics  certainly in the American anthropological society, is  there not, that talks about the duty of an  anthropologist in dealing with the people that he is  studying?  Yes, there is.  One of the ways in which that is done is to be very  careful about protecting the sense of privacy?  That's right.  And that means that if you're dealing  in matters about which people are very sensitive,  there would be a burden on you to conceal identities.  On the other hand, if you are dealing with matters  that are not a matter of that sort of sensitivity, it  may be otherwise, and I would think the two  conventions in anthropology run along side by side.  Now, in -- well, the other principle which is in  conflict at times is the professional requirement of  obj ectivity?  I'm sorry.  I was thinking about what anthropologists  do and don't do with anonymity.  Can you ask the  question again?  I said the principle that is in conflict at times with  the principle of protecting the source of information  is objectivity, professional objectivity?  Objectivity in the social sciences is a subject of  long and complicated argument.  Well, be that as it may, in the -- in this case, you  had no real problems because you were greeted and 1  2  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  47  15509  welcomed by people who wanted to talk and who were  prepared to be identified and wanted to be identified;  isn't that right?  I think when you're dealing with cultures that have  highly visible institutions, there's far less of a  difficulty here.  There are persons who are accustomed  to speaking on behalf of others for whom the public  record is an important matter.  I also was not doing  the kind of work in Gitksan/Wet'suwet'en country that  created the invasion of privacy problem.  I wasn't  living in people's homes.  I wasn't being taken to  secret hunting territories.  There is no real participant observation?  There is participant observation, as I said earlier,  that consisted in going to where people were doing  things already, going with them to some places and  spending a great deal of time visiting, talking.  I  think I said a few days ago that an important part of  participant observation is simply visiting.  Now, my question, however, to you was that you were  welcomed by people who wanted to talk and who would  have no concern about being identified.  I'm talking  about this society or these societies, the Gitksan and  Wet'suwet'en?  Well, you're making a big generalization.  I think  there were individuals who were very keen to talk,  chiefs like Mary Johnson and Mary McKenzie.  Yes.  Alfred Joseph?  Alfred Joseph.  Pete Muldoe?  Yes.  Neil Sterritt Senior and Junior?  By and large people were extremely friendly and  informative.  Yes.  And that was because you were identified as the  person who was going to disseminate the information  they wanted to get out to the world?  No.  I don't think so.  It was -- you were welcomed because of your personal  characteristics?  Well, I hope so in part.  I have done an enormous  amount of field work.  I have learned many of the --  Ingratiating ways?  -- many of the skills that are necessary for getting  along well with people.  Ingratiating is perhaps a  pejorative way of doing it. 1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  9  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  Q  18  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  31  32  33  Q  34  35  36  37  A  38  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  15510  It was meant to be a compliment, Mr. Brody.  I'm sure it wasn't.  And there are many field  techniques that are appropriate to which I have over  20 years or so been developing and I hope come to bear  whenever I'm in the field.  All right.  The -- and it is not normal in -- in  anthropological work which is to be of a professional  character to submit your work for approval by the  people who hired you?  I didn't submit my work through approval to the people  who hired me.  I fulfilled the obligations of the  contract and handed the contract to them and received  no directions as to how I should revise, reconstruct  and so on my conclusions.  My conclusions arise from  an enormous body of data.  That's where they come  from.  The -- let me go back to a point that I was discussing  with you a few minutes ago.  You had, as you indicated  on page 61 of your report, characterized the  Wet'suwet'en as an Athabascan society of a  hunter-gatherer origin and having certain  characteristics of that kind of a society?  Can you direct me to where you're --  Page 61, the second paragraph.  Yes.  I have you.  Did you ask a question?  Yes.  I said you characterized the Wet'suwet'en  society as identified by reference to the Athabascan  hunter-gatherers?  I think I'm trying to say here -- perhaps it's not  coming across clearly enough -- that the Wet'suwet'en  had certain cultural traits in common with other  Athabascan societies.  That's what you want me to read for the words "The  Wet'suwet'en seasonal round typifies this pattern and  demonstrates the flexibility characteristic of many  northern hunting peoples"?  That's one of the traits they share, yes, the seasonal  round, as we were saying earlier today.  Well, indeed hunter-gatherers are people who must  pursue their food source; isn't that right?  Yes.  And to be distinguished from people who plant?  I'm sorry?  Who distinguished -- distinguished from people who  plant things to grow their food?  Yes, or people who herd or people who slash and burn.  There's a whole set of cultural groupings here. 1  Q  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  31  A  32  33  34  Q  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Q  15511  I'm not suggesting that there is -- that that exhausts  the range of characterizations, but I'm saying that is  to be distinguished from people who plant, from  agricultural societies?  Although there are cultures that do both, of course.  Oh, yes.  I'm aware of that.  But the hunter-gatherer  typically is nomadic.  He pursues his food source?  Semi-nomadic, I think is the expression that  anthropology prefers.  There's no people who are  purely nomadic.  The point is it is a seasonal round.  It is a system of land use of some sort.  Yes.  And as we saw earlier, you regarded the Beavers  as a hunter-gathering society par excellence.  That's a statement, yes.  And, of course, as you explained earlier, the  Wet'suwet'en are less so?  Because they have at the centre of their economic and  cultural geography this -- these villages, the two  villages, with Moricetown and Hagwilget have fishing  places.  Their food came to them?  That's in part, yes, that's right.  And I suppose you would agree that they had developed  a technology required to exploit that resource which  was coming to them?  Yes.  And indeed the loss of that resource in 1820 at  Moricetown caused by the rock fall at Hagwilget caused  a group of them to go to Hagwilget and oust some  Gitksan which they found there?  No.  I think they were offered, as I'm given to  understand it, the use of a Gitksan fishing place  because of the problems of Moricetown.  I see.  Well, the evidence of Father Morice was that  they ousted some of them.  If you turn to Tab 14,  there are some extracts from his book, the first part  of which is the introduction by Professor Sage.  And  then you turn to page 8 of the preface to Father  Morice's book -- Father Morice's own writing.  Do you  see that?  Page 8?  Yes.  Let me --  I have it.  There are two page 8's.  There's page 8 of Professor  Sage.  I see.  That's the problem.  Professor -- page 8 of Father Morice. 15512  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And the first complete paragraph reads, and I quote:  3 "There they lived and thrived on the large  4 supply of salmon which the impediment in the  5 stream kept at their doors, until the year  6 1820, or thereabouts, when a large piece of  7 the rocky cliff overhanging the same river  8 at a place now called Ackwilgate, some  9 thirty miles below, having fallen across the  10 stream, this barred it so completely that it  11 formed a cataract of sufficient height to  12 prevent the fish from getting up to the  13 Moricetown fall.  Threatened with  14 starvation, the Western Babines went in a  15 body, armed cap-a-pie, and forcibly took the  16 new terminus from its owners of Tsimpsian  17 parentage."  18  19 Your disagreement with that is not the event or the  20 time, but the characterization of the way in which the  21 people of Moricetown established themselves at  22 Hagwilget?  23 A   That's part of my disagreement, yeah.  It's a major  24 disagreement anyway.  I've never received any  25 supporting evidence for that view that I can recall.  26 Q   Well, doesn't Dr. Mills seem to agree with that?  If  27 you look under Tab 13 there's an extract from her  28 cross-examination.  And perhaps the -- Mr. MacKenzie  29 had referred to what Jenness said, and all he says is  30 they moved en masse to the canyon and built new homes  31 on a narrow shelf below it.  And then he refers to  32 Morice.  And Dr. Mills says "I referred to that in my  33 report as well, and I agreed".  Now, it could be that  34 she's agreeing to Jenness or she could be agreeing to  35 Morice.  But Morice had the advantages of interviewing  36 a person who made that trip, didn't he?  37 A   I don't know.  38 Q   Doesn't he say that the last survivor died at a  39 certain time?  40 A  Where is that?  41 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I'll leave you to pursue that.  In any  42 event --  43 MR. JACKSON:  My lord, I don't recall that being the tenor of  44 Dr. Mills' evidence at all.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I've read what I consider to be the reference  46 that I made, and you -- I have acknowledged that she  47 could be referring to Jenness. 15513  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  This is the passage in the evidence of Dr.  2 Mills that you had in mind when you made the  3 suggestion to the witness?  4 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  That's correct.  5 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  6 THE WITNESS:  Can you direct me to this passage of Dr. Mills'  7 evidence?  I'm having difficulty finding it.  8 MR. GOLDIE:  9 Q   Well it's under Tab 13, and the first page is 13153  10 and if you look at lines 13 to 30.  11 A   I can't see that Dr. Mills says anywhere here that the  12 Wet'suwet'en from Moricetown forced their way into the  13 Hagwilget site.  14 Q   No.  I -- I said -- I suggested to you that she agreed  15 with Morice.  16 A   No.  I don't see her agreeing with Morice.  There is  17 no --  18 Q   You say she's agreeing with Jenness; is that right?  19 A   Yes.  It seems to from here.  20 Q   All right.  In any event --  21 A  All that Jenness says here as I'm reading it -- I'm  22 having difficulty understanding what your question is  23 here.  24 THE COURT:  The problem, Mr. Brody, is that at the end of the  25 quotation there's a question and that's what Father  26 Morice wrote as well.  27 THE WITNESS:  I see, my lord.  Thank you.  Thank you.  Well, I  28 would say that it isn't what Father Morice wrote as  29 well on the basis of what I just looked at.  30 MR. GOLDIE:  31 Q   Well, Father Morice added the words that they ousted  32 them -- not words but the thought.  33 A   He's adding the thought which is at issue here.  The  34 thought that is at issue, as I understand it, is  35 whether or not the Wet'suwet'en forced the Gitksan  36 out.  I am in no doubt at all as to the fact that the  37 Wet'suweten moved, as Jenness suggests and as Tonia  38 Mills agrees, to Hagwilget sometime in the 1820's.  39 That they forced the Gitksan out, I said to you a  4 0 moment ago I have no evidence.  I've never heard any  41 evidence anyway other than this passage that you just  42 referred me to in Morice and it's not here in Jenness.  43 Q   No.  I didn't suggest it was.  44 A   I think you did, actually.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  I did not.  Now, let us go on.  46 THE COURT:  Before you do that, can I inquire whether — Mr.  47 Grant may be the one I should direct this question to. 1  2  3  MR.  GRANT:  4  5  THE  COURT:  6  ]  7  MR.  GRANT:  8  9  THE  COURT:  10  11  12  MR.  GRANT:  13  14  THE  COURT:  15  MR.  GOLDIE  16  Q  17  18  19  ]  20  A  21  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  A  34  35  i  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  43  A   '  44  Q  45  46  A  47  15514  Is that the rock slide that gives Roje Debull its  name, or was there a separate rock slide?  Roje Debull was the name given to the mountain  behind because of the continuing falling of rocks.  So it wasn't this rock slide that gave name to the  mountain?  No.  But, of course, it's at the approximate  location.  They're close, but there is a -- there is a separate  or a number of separate rock slides that give rise to  the name of that magnificent peak?  Yes.  And I think what happens is there's a  continuation of rock slides at certain times.  Yes.  Thank you.  Sorry, Mr. Goldie.  The -- I'm not terribly interested on that point.  The  point that I am interested in is that the indication  that there is an almost total reliance upon salmon at  Moricetown.  Would you agree with that?  Extensive reliance upon salmon, as I've said, is a  feature of Wet'suwet'en society.  Right.  Now, in this, of course, as we have  established, they differ from a hunting-gathering  society?  Yes.  Now, there seems to be little doubt -- or perhaps I  should put it in the form of a question.  In the  period we're talking about, which is 1820 and  subsequently to the end of the 19th century, would you  agree with me that what game there was in the Bulkley  Valley would be found relatively nearby the villages  of both the Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en?  I imagine that in the 1820's there was hunting of  quite a productive kind to be had throughout the  Wet'suwet'en area from Hagwilget and Moricetown in the  north to Burns Lake in the south and across to the big  lakes west of there.  I imagine that would all have  been quite productive, beaver and small species  habitat anyway.  Well, I'm now referring to the -- not necessarily just  to the fur-bearing animals, but to any animal which  would be useful for subsistence.  Well, beaver is a very important part of subsistence.  I know that, Mr. Brody.  I'm broadening the question  to include any animal available for subsistence.  I think it would be easier for me if you identified  the animals. 15515  1 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, if I had to do that, I'd be suggesting an  2 answer to you.  Let me put --  3 MR. JACKSON:  I have no objection to that, my lord.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  5 Q   No doubt.  The -- when Mr. Alfred Joseph gave his  6 evidence, he testified that there were certain open  7 ground.  And if you look under Tab 16 at page 2248,  8 which is the last one, my lord.  He's talking about  9 groundhog and he has also coupled that with caribou.  10 And question at line 26:  11  12 Q   "That's for uses beyond just food uses  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And the -- I think you gave us two  15 examples of that, the first one was  16 around Mount Cronin?"  17  18 Now, that's a relatively short distance away from  19 Moricetown, is it not, or do you know?  2 0 A   I don't know where Mount Cronin is.  21 Q   All right.  The -- the proposition that I'm putting to  22 you was that prior to the arrival of the white  23 settlers, game, using that word in the broadest sense,  24 would be available at relatively close distances to  25 the villages of Moricetown and Hagwilget?  26 A   There would have been --  27 Q   Deer, caribou?  28 A   -- deer, caribou, groundhog in the alpine.  29 Q   Yes.  30 A   Just as there would have been all along that area.  31 Q   Yes.  In other words, extended trips away from the  32 permanent villages would not be required for purposes  33 of subsistence?  34 A  Well, there's a very tricky matter here at issue, I  35 think, about what salmon can and cannot provide.  I  36 mean salmon can provide protein, but it cannot provide  37 fat.  You can't live on salmon.  38 Q   I didn't suggest that.  I said extended trips away  39 from the permanent villages would not be required for  40 purposes of subsistence?  41 A  Well, I think it might well —  42 Q   And I thought you'd agreed with me that game would be  43 available?  44 A  Would, but for the purposes of subsistence in the  45 longer term, especially through the winter, if you are  46 placing a heavy reliance on salmon -- if a large  47 population was placing a heavy reliance on salmon, I 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  19  20  A  21  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  15516  suspect they would very soon be in severe nutritional  difficulties.  And one of the reasons,  anthropologically speaking, for the widespread of  hunters is to secure fat as well as meat, and I would  think that one reason why the Wet'suwet'en required  their large territories to the south was to provision  themselves with a fat supply, particularly from beaver  in the winter.  Yes.  I'll come to that.  But I think that, therefore, I would be skeptical of  the notion that all the people living at Moricetown  could subsist on the resources available close to  Moricetown.  Perhaps a small number could, but the  Moricetown fishery encouraged a large concentration of  people.  Right.  But the technology that we are told about is  almost exclusively -- for preservation, that is, is  almost exclusively directed to the preservation of  salmon, isn't it?  There's a kungax, if I remember rightly, that refers  to fat storage.  But in terms of the bulk of the information that we  are given, the emphasis is on the preservation of  salmon; isn't that correct?  Because salmon is difficult to preserve.  Fat is not  difficult to preserve.  Therefore, there's bound to be  a sophisticated technology of preservation of salmon  in all societies.  For whatever reason, the emphasis is on the  preservation of the fish?  Right.  Yes.  Now, your evidence in the Apsassin case made  reference, for instance, to the preservation of meat,  dried meat?  Yes.  I can recall no evidence of any such equivalent  pemmican or whatever it was in any evidence that we've  heard with respect to these two societies.  Once you're west of The Rockies, making dry meat is a  much trickier matter --  Okay.  -- because of the climate.  You can't make dry meat in  a humid climate.  All right.  Well, that's a very good reason why we  don't hear much about it, isn't it?  We do hear about smokehouses in the southern  territories. 15517  1 Q   Now, the permanent villages were, of course, regarded  2 by the Wet'suwet'en as their home; isn't that right?  3 A   Yes, in a -- there's a lot of evidence — I was very  4 struck by this -- in the way in which the winter --  5 what might be called the winter villages were home  6 villages.  7 Q   I'm talking about Moricetown and Hagwilget.  8 A   Oh.  Then we're at odds here.  Moricetown and  9 Hagwilget were very important as summer villages and,  10 as I think I say somewhere in my opinion, the Gitksan  11 would refer to Moricetown as the abandoned place,  12 presumably because people were often away from it.  13 Q   Down at the coast at the canneries?  14 A   No.  I don't think so.  Way in their territories to  15 the south, which is where they would be provisioning  16 themselves and subsisting for much if not most of the  17 year.  18 Q   I put it to you again that the Gitksan — the  19 Wet'suwet'en regarded the Moricetown and Hagwilget as  20 home.  You disagree with that?  21 A   I think they regard both places as home.  It was home  22 for the summer for the salmon fishery at Moricetown or  23 Hagwilget and home for the autumn, winter, early  24 spring in the territories.  25 Q   So they've got two homes?  26 A   It's the characteristic of people who move between  27 winter resources and summer resources, yes.  28 Q   Well, now, the -- for instance, berries.  Where would  29 you expect people to go for berries?  30 A   They're picking berries in late spring and early fall,  31 so they might well have berry picking patches close to  32 where they'd be living at those times of year.  33 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, Mr. Joseph's evidence appeared to be that the  34 berries were picked around the village of Moricetown  35 or Hagwilget.  36 MR. JACKSON:  Which tab is this, Mr. Goldie?  37 MR. GOLDIE:  38 Q   This is Tab 16, page 2238.  39 A   22?  40 Q   38.  Question 10:  41  42 Q   "Now Mr. Joseph, can you tell His  43 Lordship when people pick huckleberries?  44 A   In about mid-August and on.  45 Q   Yeah.  And blueberries are what, a  46 little later?  47 A   No.  They are about the same time. 15518  1 Q   About the same time?  2 A   Yeah.  3 Q   The -- your people when you were growing  4 up, did not use the territory in the  5 summer time, did they?  6 A   They did for berries.  7 Q   Did they go down from the village of  8 Hagwilget to the -- to Gisdaywa's  9 territory to pick berries?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   That's a long way to pick berries, is it  12 not?  13 A   It's -- they have to -- well some of  14 them lived there year round at the time,  15 some of my grandparents.  16 Q   And your uncle?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   Yeah.  Are those the people you are  19 referring to?  2 0                A   Yes."  21  22 Now, his uncle, his evidence was, Mr. Thomas George,  23 lived on a farm in this area.  24 Continuing:  25  26 Q   "In particular, you and your family?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   And berries that, for instance, your  29 grandmother Cecilia wanted, were  30 picked around the village?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   I think you told His Lordship where she  33 picked was subdivided and towns are --  34 or buildings on it and some commercial  35 building on that area, so that was  36 where?  37 A  Around New Hazelton."  38  39 Q   So that would indicate that unless you were living  40 permanently outside those villages, you got your  41 berries right around them.  That's a logical  42 proposition?  43 A   Confirmed what I just said, that I think you pick your  44 berries adjacent to where you were, although I'm  45 reminded reading that of people making long journeys  46 to pick berries.  When I was there, there were  47 favourite berry patches, of course, areas that had 15519  1 been burned and looked after long periods of time to  2 maintain them as productive berry patches which people  3 would travel quite a long ways.  4 Q   In automobiles and trucks?  5 A   In modern times, yes.  6 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  Thank you.  7 THE COURT:  Can we adjourn?  8 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you, my lord.  9 THE COURT:  Two o'clock, please.  10 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until two.  11  12  13 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  14  15 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  16 a true and accurate transcript of the  17 proceedings transcribed to the best  18 of my skill and ability.  19  20  21  22 Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  23 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 15520  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT)  2  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you, my lord.  My lord, the preface to Mr.  5 Brody's book "Maps and Dreams" to which I've referred  6 him --  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  8 MR. GOLDIE:  — could that be inserted under tab 37 —  9 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  10 MR. GOLDIE:  — of the book.  11 THE COURT:  All right.  That will be 992-37.  12 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  13 THE REGISTRAR:  No.  995.  14 MR. GOLDIE:  995.  15 THE COURT:  Oh.  995.  There were a couple of other items you  16 mentioned this morning, Mr. Goldie, that were not  17 marked.  18 MR. GOLDIE:  That's right.  I had got along fairly far.  I  19 propose leaving in the book.  20 THE COURT:  You don't have to deal with them now unless you wish  21 to —  22 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, it might as well be done now while it's fresh  23 in my recollection.  24 THE COURT:  All right.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  Under tab 4, I don't propose marking the extract  26 from Mr. Brody's evidence in chief.  It's identified  27 as Volume 211.  But I'd like to leave it in the book.  2 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  29 MR. GOLDIE:  Tab five I haven't referred to yet; nor six.  30 THE REGISTRAR:  That's 13, 14, 16.  31 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  Thank you.  13 is proceedings at the trial  32 Antonia Mills.  That's Volume 200.  I don't propose  33 marking that.  The extracts from Father Morice's book  34 at tab 14 I'd like that marked.  35 THE COURT:  That will be 995-14.  36 THE REGISTRAR:  14.  37  38 (EXHIBIT 955-14:  Tab 14 - Extracts from Works of  39 Father Morice)  40  41 MR. JACKSON:  I think that's already been marked as an exhibit.  42 I have no objection to it being marked again.  43 THE COURT:  Oh, it's 955-3 isn't it?  4 4 MR. JACKSON:  Yes, my lord.  45 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, it's convenient to have it marked  46 again.  47 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, that's right. 15521  1 THE REGISTRAR:  And 16, Mr. Goldie.  2 MR. GOLDIE:  And 16, yes.  That's proceedings at trial Volume  3 135.  4 THE COURT:  Yes.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  Extracts which I'll leave in the book which I don't  6 propose marking.  7 THE COURT:  All right.  8  9 (EXHIBIT 995-37:  Tab 37 - Preface to "Maps and  10 Dreams" - H. Brody)  11  12 MR. GOLDIE:  And that, I think, brings me down to the point I'm  13 at now.  14 THE COURT:  All right.  15  16 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GOLDIE (Cont'd):  17 Q   Now, Mr. Brody, before lunch we were discussing some  18 of the aspects of hunting-gathering societies and I  19 have got to the point where I was discussing with you  20 the Wet'suwet'en use of the resource which came to its  21 doorstep, namely salmon.  And we had got on to some  22 discussion of game.  So far as subsistence is  23 concerned, there wasn't that much game in this area  24 anyway, was there?  25 A  Which area are you referring to?  26 Q   The Wet'suwet'en area.  27 A   No, I think there was probably quite a lot of game in  28 the area, if you take into account the groundhog in  29 the alpine, beaver, the caribou in the mountains, you  30 were saying earlier on yourself, in the 1800s.  Time  31 period is important here because of the spread of  32 moose populations.  So we need to be careful.  But of  33 course in the relatively fertile lowlands of the  34 Bulkley/Morice system there would be many small  35 species, and as anthropologists can tell us, the small  36 species are very important in the hunting-gathering  37 system.  Often of underrated importance.  Grouse,  38 rabbits, whitefish, permanent populations of trout in  39 lakes and so on.  So it's a difficult thing to  40 summarize, but I would think there would be quite a  41 lot of game, yeah.  42 Q   Do you have any particular references that you have in  43 mind for that, for those statements?  44 A   No.  That's the impression I got from talking to  45 people about living memory and from some of the  46 accounts of the past.  47 Q   Well, we have here Professor Ray's evidence that 15522  1 salmon was the only truly abundant resource.  Would  2 you agree with that?  3 A  Well, salmon came, as you said, to one spot in many  4 thousands in a predictable manner.  It's a question of  5 how Dr. Ray is using the term abundant as a way in  6 which salmon are abundant unlike any other resource.  7 Q   Well, I —  8 A   Or unlike most other resources.  9 Q   I refer you to tab 18 which is an extract from his  10 report, and the second paragraph starts off:  "The  11 truly abundant resource was salmon."  Can you accept  12 that as a general statement?  13 A   Yes.  As I just said, salmon is abundant.  14 Q   Thank you.  And he also gave some evidence, if I  15 understand what he said correctly, that there really  16 wasn't enough food of the game character that would  17 support Fort Connelly and I am referring to -- if he's  18 referring to Fort Connelly and I'm not sure, but I'm  19 referring to his evidence at under tab 17, page --  20 A   Tab 17?  21 Q   Page 13373.  22 A  Which line?  23 Q   34 to 37, he's talking about the people in the  24 Hudson's Bay post and he said -- he is talking about  25 the documents and:  26  27 "I might add, the still very tedious, but it's  28 clear the men are preoccupied with getting enough  29 fish because there wasn't enough game in New  30 Caledonia to keep the post going."  31  32 MR. JACKSON:   This is the last part of a long answer, my lord.  33 Could the witness be given a moment to read the whole  34 answer?  35 MR. GOLDIE:  36 Q   Oh certainly.  37 A  Well, you might be right that he's referring here to  38 Fort Connelly on Bear Lake, whereas I think I said in  39 my opinion on Bear Lake there was perhaps a bit of a  40 resource problem, because it lies in a difficult  41 environmental circumstance and is very, very high up  42 the Skeena salmon system.  You have to make a very  43 careful distinction when looking at these kinds of  44 opinions between persons dependent on the Fraser  45 salmon resource or the very headwaters of the Skeena  46 at Bear Lake on the one hand and people dependent on  47 the salmon resource on the Bulkley, Moricetown on the 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  25  A  26  27  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  15523  other.  And as I said, I think when talking about Bear  Lake or when writing about Bear Lake, that is an area  where I can imagine people would not have centred in  large numbers, because there is not a good combination  of reliable salmon and reliable hunting territories.  Unlike the circumstances at Moricetown/Hagwilget where  there is both a very reliable salmon resource, subject  to the rare catastrophe of a rock slide, and  relatively rich hunting territories stretching far to  the south.  Yes, you expanded on that in your evidence in chief.  It's not so much a question of the watersheds.  It's a  question of who were trading at the fort, is it not?  If Mr. Ray is talking about the dependence of the fort  people on native people?  Well, this is 17.  I just flipped forward to the other  one that you gave me.  Yes.  The people who traded at the fort didn't go by  watersheds.  They crossed watersheds, didn't they?  Yes, they did.  Yes.  So when he says there wasn't enough game in New  Caledonia, he is making a reference to the people who  traded at the fort and their ability to supply the  fort, isn't that correct?  Well, the ability of the fort to get supplies is  different from the ability of the people to supply the  fort.  Mr. Brody, his entire answer starts off with the words  "in my opinion the company was very dependent on the  native people."  Yes.  Would you please assume that for the purposes of my  question?  Yes, I will.  Yes.  All right.  So it's a question of the dependence  of the fort on the people who were trading at the  fort?  Yes.  Isn't it?  Yes.  And his opinion is that there wasn't that much game,  enough game in New Caledonia to keep the posts going?  Well, that's the opinion of the trader, is it, here?  Well, that's his opinion as I understand it.  And it  was Professor Ray's conclusion, was it not, that  anybody was free to hunt large game and to take fish,  but that there was relatively little large game 15524  1 hunting?  2 A  Around the Bear Lake post are you saying?  3 Q   Well —  4 A   I don't -- I can't believe you are asking me to give  5 an opinion about the resources in the whole of New  6 Caledonia here.  7 Q   No, I am not asking you to give an opinion.  I am just  8 drawing to your attention the opinion of Professor  9 Ray.  Now, if you would look under tab 19, page  10 1354 -- 13580, this is the evidence of Professor Ray  11 in Volume 204, my lord.  12 THE COURT:  What volume?  13 MR. GOLDIE:  It's volume -- it's under tab 19 and the volume is  14 from Volume 2 04.  15 THE COURT:  Yes.  16 MR. GOLDIE:  17 Q   And, well, actually I should start at 13579 so that  18 you get the context.  And at line 35 Mr. Willms is  19 asking Professor Ray why he changed a word in his  20 report from wealth to resources.  And the question is.  21  22 "Q In the final.  And this is why I am just  23 wondering about your change from 'wealth' to  24 resources, because on page 25 you say:  25  26 'In contrast to beaver some other resources  27 were not as carefully husbanded.'  28  2 9 And then you say:  30  31 'Men who did not have a land stake were  32 allowed to trap marten.'.  33  34 And then you say:  35  36 'This no mention is made about prohibitions  37 concerning the hunting of large game or the  38 taking of fish.'  39  40 No mention is made of those two.  Now,  41 certainly those two might be called  42 subsistence items, correct?  43 A First of all, they took —  44 Q Well, would you agree that those were  45 subsistence?  46 A Yes.  47 Q Large game and fish? 15525  1 A     Yes."  2  3 Now, just pausing there.  You follow what Professor  4 Ray is saying up till now?  5 A   Yes, I do, yes.  6 Q   Then it goes on to say:  7  8 "A       First of all, relatively little large  9 game hunting was done in this area and as  10 far as fish was concerned Brown and others  11 make it clear that most of the fishing was a  12 communal activity except he doesn't explain  13 the exception may be with regard to the  14 Hot-sett and the dip net scenario, but these  15 other groups, including the Gitksan, were --  16 they fished with barriers and those were  17 collectively put together.  So -- and they  18 belonged to a particular village.  So --  19 Q Well, the Babine —  20 A It wouldn't surprise me in that sense, if  21 you want to use it in that sense it's  22 commonly available to the members of the  23 house since they collectively are engaged in  24 the activity of obtaining it.  25 Q And the Babines had nets and in fact they  26 sold the nets to Trader Brown and Trader  27 Brown used the nets to get fish?"  28  29 And then he goes on -- well, I'll stop at that point  30 and ask you to go back to the statement at line 12:  31  32 "First of all, relatively little large game  33 hunting was done in this area."  34  35 Do you have any reason to doubt that?  36 A   If that's Dr. Ray's opinion based on the documents  37 he's looked at, I am interested in that -- in that  38 opinion.  However, I assume that large game is not  39 being used to include beaver or groundhog and they  40 would be tremendously important resources in that  41 period.  42 Q   Yes.  43 A  And of course this is before the movement of the moose  44 in substantial numbers back into the area.  45 Q   Yes.  We have had Dr. Hatler give us the date when  46 moose came into the area.  What is the date?  47 A   Tell me.  I haven't heard -- I haven't seen Dr. 1  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  A  15526  Hatler's evidence.  I see.  Well, you don't know then?  I know it was in the nineteenth century -- well, I am  given to understand it was in the nineteenth century.  I don't have a -- I am not an expert of moose  population.  So that's a span of a hundred years.  So it could be  anywhere in the nineteenth century?  If I remember rightly it was in the first half of the  nineteenth century that they appeared and became  relatively abundant through the century.  But I am  dredging around in memories, so I am not sure about.  Yes.  Now, the -- going back to page 548, 13548 under  the same tab, and this again is Professor Ray's  evidence.  Mr. Willms put this question to him at line  13:  "Q     One thing that you noted on your review of  the Hudson's Bay documents was that putting  aside fur trapping, the exploitation of  animals by the Atnahs or the  Babine/Wet'suwet'en was pretty minimal?  A     Uh-huh.  Q     Is that correct?  A     Uh-huh.  Q     You have to say yes or no.  A     Oh sorry.  Yes.  This I assume means in  terms of food and that sort of thing.  I  would have to say it would have some for  clothing."  Would you agree with that?  I agree with that being Dr. Ray's assessment of his  evidence.  Yes.  Well, your assessment is based on what people  have told you of their recollection?  Yes.  And I'm also having to ask questions of myself  all the time about how the system was likely to have  functioned, how people deal with the fact they are on  a high protein source and so on.  Yes, of course.  Now, let me put this to you, though:  Nobody in his right mind would spend all winter out in  a territory looking for just clothing, would he?  You can't separate clothing from fat and meat anyway  in these economies.  Well —  If you kill the animal you have the skin for the 1  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  Q  27  A  28  29  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  15527  clothes and you have the fat and meat for your diet.  But if you are 90 miles away from your home, you would  not be able to carry very much meat, whereas you might  be able to carry a skin quite easily?  That's right.  Which may explain some of the documents  here.  Yes.  And for instance, in Mr. Alfred Joseph's case  that was the distance between his home in Hagwilget  and his territory, 90 miles?  You were giving me a piece of information?  Yes, I am.  Yes.  And I take it, having given you that piece of  information that based upon your acceptance of that  you would agree with me that you wouldn't be able to  pack much food home, but you might very well be able  to pack a skin?  In my experience in travelling with hunters it's  startling what people can pack and do pack.  Yes, we're --  So —  I accept that.  If you are talking, as I think you  are, of a hunting-gathering society.  I am talking of a society where hunting and gathering  is an important part of the seasonal round.  Yes.  There may be a need to bring fat to a summer fishing  place, for example, and I can well imagine people  carrying large amounts of fat.  And this is -- we are now talking about the  Wet'suwet'en at a time when they didn't have a horse  or any other means of transportation than their back?  Oh, no, there is a very remarkable ability to carry  things on the back in these cultures.  I am sure it's  very well documented in all the literature -- in much  of the literature.  Let me put this proposition to you that the only  reason that people would spend an extended period of  time 90 miles away from their home during the winter  would be to carry on an economic activity?  There is a kind of concealed assumption in your  question, if I might say, sir.  I thought I'd stated my assumption.  They are 90 miles away from their home, I think we  said earlier that they have more than one home.  They  have a home that is in the hunting territories.  There  are winter homes and summer homes, and people may be 1  2  3  4  5  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  18  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  45  A  46  47  Q  15528  moving from home to home, and it may well be as I  think some elders have said that they felt that the  winter home where they spent more of their time was  more of a home than the summer home at the fishing  grounds.  Yes.  That — that —  So I wouldn't agree that people are suffering the  discomfort of packing stuff from a long way from home.  They are at home or close to home when they are doing  their hunting.  Yes.  Mr. -- or Dr. -- Mr. Brody, please make the  assumption that the home is Hagwilget and that the  person who is moving between his home is moving a  distance of 90 miles.  I ask you to make that  assumption.  Well, I have to say I am very troubled by being asked  to make an assumption -- by being asked to assume  something that I don't believe is the case.  Yes.  All right.  I ask you to make that assumption  and I suggest to you that if people were 90 miles away  from their home they would be there to carry on an  economic activity and my question included the  assumption of extended time.  The assumption of?  Extended time in the territory.  I don't know what you mean by the second assumption.  Perhaps you could unpack the second assumption for me.  Well, what assumption -- what do you take out of the  word extended time?  Are you talking about people spending a long period in  the winter territory?  Yes, I am.  Or a long period in history, a long historical span?  No, not long period in history.  I am talking about a  long period seasonally.  That people would spend seven months on their winter  hunting territories.  Is that -- is that -- are you comfortable with that  assumption?  Yes.  I can make that assumption if ask me to, yes.  All right.  Well, with those assumptions I suggest to  you that the only reasonable explanation for being out  in the winter territory for that length of time would  be to carry on an economic activity?  Economic activities include subsistence hunting.  In  my experience --  Exclude those, please. 15529  1 A   Please let me finish, Mr. Goldie.  2 Q   Excuse me, Mr. Brody.  3 MR. JACKSON:  My lord —  4 MR. GOLDIE:  I want to state —  5 MR. JACKSON:  My lord, I must object at this point.  6 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie, Mr. Jackson is entitled to make an  7 objection.  8 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  Well, carry on, please.  9 MR. JACKSON:  My lord, Mr. Goldie has asked Mr. Brody to make a  10 set of assumptions which seem to be pyramiding one  11 upon another.  At this particular point I am  12 completely unable to follow the assumptions upon which  13 Mr. Brody is being asked a particular question and  14 perhaps if Mr. Goldie can restate it and set out  15 clearly the assumptions which are being made, the  16 witness may be able to complete his answer.  17 MR. GOLDIE:  18 Q   All right.  Let us restate the assumptions that I am  19 asking you to make.  One, the primary food source is  20 at the doorstep of the home in Hagwilget.  You accept  21 that?  22 A   Do I accept it as a truth or as an assumption?  23 Q   No.  I said an assumption.  Please listen to what I am  24 saying, Mr. Brody, and we will get along much faster.  25 The second assumption is that the territory in which  26 the hunting is carried out is 90 miles away from that  27 home.  Number three, that subsistence is not an  28 economic activity in the question I am about to ask  29 you.  Number four, that extended time is a period in  30 the wintertime of up to seven months.  You understand  31 those assumptions?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Now, on those assumptions I suggest to you that the  34 only logical reason for somebody being away from his  35 home 90 miles for an extended period in the wintertime  36 would be to carry on an economic activity other than  37 subsistence?  38 A  Well, your assumptions logically compel the  39 conclusion, because you have defined economic activity  40 to exclude subsistence in your assumptions.  41 Q   Yes.  42 A   So it follows logically, not as a matter of any  43 empirical interest, but as a matter of logic that they  44 are out there pursuing an economic activity.  45 Q   Thank you.  And if subsistence can be satisfied near  46 at hand and not -- does not need a trip of some 90  47 miles, would you not agree with me that subsistence is 1  2  3  A  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  32  Q  33  A  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  15530  not an economic activity that would be pursued for an  extended period in the territory?  I am sorry, you will have to rephrase that question.  It's far too long to grasp.  You don't understand that?  I didn't understand that question.  All right.  I suggest to you that subsistence can be  satisfied close at hand --  No.  Well, I think I said --  -- from the river and from hunting grounds near at  hand.  I think I said before lunch I didn't think that was  the case.  In my understanding of the reliance upon  the river as an abundance -- a source of an abundant  supply of salmon lies in the fact that it becomes  possible for a relatively large number of people to  live there during the summer when the salmon are  running and when people can be laying in big supplies  of protein.  But once the salmon aren't there, there  is the protein/fat ratio problem and the large numbers  of people will not be able as a whole to subsist on  the available fat resources that are adjacent to the  community.  So they are therefore ever pressed into  spreading out onto hunting territories, pressed into  going into their winter homes where they will be able  to subsist properly.  And that is speculation on your part?  Well, it's speculation based on a good deal of  anthropological data from other places and it's based  on what people tell me and it's based on many of the  suggestive parts of the Kungax in particular.  Your reliance is upon experience elsewhere?  I said my reliance is upon all those different basis  including what people tell me about that area and  including what anthropology tells me about the way the  system in that area is likely to have functioned.  Well, I am suggesting to you, if you haven't already  guessed it, that the economic activity which is  carried on in the manner I've suggested is trapping.  Now, would you agree with that?  Trapping is an important part of what people have used  those territories for in recent times, yes.  Define recent times, please.  Since trapping with steel traps, I -- by the way, when  I say trapping I mean trapping with steel traps, not  with deadfalls and so on.  Trapping for the fur trade,  for sale of furs to white traders is something that 15531  goes back to the early part of the nineteenth century  in that area.  Early being the first 25 years?  Yes, I imagine that Wet'suwet'en would have probably  have begun to acquire steel traps by the 1820s.  I am  not sure of this.  In fact, now you asked me I would  be interested to find that out.  Well, have you read Simon Fraser's account?  Yes, I have.  It's a long time ago.  Do you remember his reference to ironworks?  No, I don't.  No.  You understand that to be traps, do you not?  Ironworks.  I'd have to see the text.  All right.  I —  Fraser went into Fort Fraser, what is now Fort Fraser  in 1806?  Yes, that's right.  And did he not find people from the west who said they  got their ironworks from the west?  I'd have to look at the passage.  I am not able to  comment.  All right. Now, you referred in your evidence to the  McKenna -- evidence before the Royal Commission and I  am referring to Exhibit 993, my lord, which is --  26 THE REGISTRAR:  Book 2.  27 MR. GOLDIE: Book 2 or Volume 2 at tab 17.  2 8 MR. JACKSON:  Volume 3.  29 MR. GOLDIE:  Volume 3, yes, thank you.  30 THE REGISTRAR:  Tab 17?  31 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, if that could be placed in front of the  32 witness.  33 THE COURT:  Volume 3 you say?  34 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, it is, my lord.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, it is, my lord.  36 A   Thank you.  37 MR. GOLDIE:  38 Q   That extract is almost entirely taken up with  39 statements made by Father Godfrey?  40 A   That's right, yes.  41 Q   And he was the missionary at Moricetown?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   Which -- and I -- am I correct in my understanding  44 that he was -- Hagwilget was also under his charge?  45 A   Yeah, the Catholic community in the area, the  46 Wet'suwet'en Catholic community in the area would have  47 been under his charge.  1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25 15532  1 Q   Yes.  I am not sure the purpose for which you  2 introduced that evidence.  3 MR. JACKSON:  My lord, I introduced the evidence.  I don't think  4 Mr. Brody introduced the evidence.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, he -- I accept my friend's correction.  I am  6 not sure for what purpose.  7 Q   You consulted this, my recollection is that this is  8 one of the things that you consulted?  9 A   I read this Stuart Lake agency McKenna McBride  10 hearings and this is part of it.  11 Q   Yes.  All right.  Well, I am going to suggest to you  12 that the only economic activity which the Wet'suwet'en  13 carried on was trapping in the wintertime and the  14 selling of the furs in the spring so far as the  15 territories were concerned.  Now, you can agree or  16 disagree with that and then we can proceed.  17 A  Are you going to suggest that to me?  18 Q   Yes.  19 A  Well —  20 Q   Do you agree or disagree?  21 A  Well, if you are defining economic as the only  22 activity which generated a tradeable product, i.e.  23 tradeable with the trading posts or other white  24 traders in the area, yes, then I can agree with that.  25 Q   All right.  And the only reason for the demarcation of  26 clan or house territories was to mark off exclusive  27 trapping areas?  28 A   No, I can't agree with that at all.  Anthropologically  29 that doesn't make a lot of sense to me.  30 Q   Well, it was -- of the animals trapped, was it not Dr.  31 Ray's conclusion that only the beaver was regarded as  32 exclusively reserved to the owner of territory?  33 A   I am not sure what Dr. Ray's opinion is.  34 Q   Well, let's go to tab 19, page 578, my lord.  Well,  35 perhaps 579 if you want to.  36 THE COURT:  I am sorry, you said tab 19?  37 MR. GOLDIE:  Tab 19 there are a series of pages, my lord.  38 THE COURT:  I am sorry.  39 MR. GOLDIE:  I am sorry, it's tab 19 of the orange book.  4 0 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Yes, I have it.  41 MR. GOLDIE:  42 Q   And the context really starts in 578, and again he's  43 being asked to explain certain changes he made between  44 his final draft report and his original draft and  45 question at line 30 in 578, quote:  46  47 "     'In which tracts of land' and you said in 15533  1 your draft 'the tracts were owned by clans  2 but subdivided and apportioned to men of  3 property who were the lineage house heads'  4 and I take it when you used the word 'clans'  5 in your draft you mean tribe?  6 A Yes.  I was thinking of these larger  7 groupings of these families."  8  9 And then he talks about subdivision and apportionment  10 and over on the page -- well, his answer at line 43:  11  12 "A Because I'm talking here -- I shifted the  13 emphasis somewhat and talking about -- first  14 of all, I think we'll agree that furs, wild  15 game on the land is a resource, right, which  16 is converted into wealth -- well it can be  17 a wealth in itself, but it's a raw material,  18 right?  19 Q Like marten?  20 A Yeah.  marten, beaver, fish, salmon, all  21 these resources are products of the land and  22 the heads of those families manage those  23 tracts of lands, but they are also - a bit  24 loose writing on my part, I suppose, they  25 were also by the record, the record clearly  26 says they owned those properties.  So in  27 that respect they should have probably left  28 the original on that point as it was,"  29  30 And then we go down to line 14:  31  32 "Q They managed the beaver trapping.  Isn't  33 that what the Brown record shows, beaver  34 trapping?  35 A He specifically addresses himself to that,  36 because that was one of his preoccupations,  37 yes.  But the problem is that ideally the  38 record should have given us more detail than  39 it did.  We are not totally clear what  40 happens to the rest of the resource.  It  41 seems to me it would be reasonable to  42 suppose that the things like marten, members  43 of a house, we are talking -- I mean, okay.  44 What term would you like me to use?  If we  45 are talking about members of the same family  46 on a given family's territory, it seems the  47 way the the context of the record works I 15534  1 would say that these other resources were  2 accessible to the members of that group in  3 that territory, but beaver which was closely  4 tied to the feasting complex, was more  5 tightly controlled by the head.  That was --  6 that would be the way I would interpret it."  7  8 Now, isn't that consistent with your understanding  9 that beaver was exclusively reserved to the owner of  10 the territory?  11 A   No, that's not my understanding at all.  My  12 understanding is that the resources of each house  13 territory were under the jurisdiction of the head of  14 each house and that persons had special responsibility  15 for those resources and that would go to all the  16 resources in the area.  I have no reason for thinking  17 that people were prepared to let someone else trap  18 marten or hunt grouse on their territory but not let  19 them hunt or trap beaver on their territory.  20 Q   Well, isn't he saying that the beaver is more closely  21 controlled?  22 A   He says the beaver has special importance in the  23 Wet'suwet'en Feast system.  24 Q   Yes.  But —  25 A  And it also had importance for traders.  26 Q   Well, he said was more tightly controlled by the head.  27 Do you accept that?  28 A  Well, I think that with all due respect Dr. Ray is  29 venturing an anthropological opinion here which is not  30 based on the documents which are under the discussion.  31 It's not something that anything here goes to that as  32 I can understand the page and I haven't read all these  33 two pages you put to me of all this.  34 Q   Yes.  35 A   But I don't quite see where he is getting this opinion  36 from.  37 Q   Well, go down to line 35:  38  39 "Q     In the final.   And this is why I am just  4 0 wondering about your change from 'wealth' to  41 resources, because on page 25 you say:  42  43 'In contrast to beaver some other resources  44 were not as carefully husbanded.'.  45  4 6 And then you say:  47 15535  1 'Men who did not have a land stake were  2 allowed to trap marten.'.  3  4 And then you say this:  5  6 'this -- "  7  8 I think that means "there is no mention":  9  10 'This no mention is made about prohibitions  11 concerning the hunting of large game or the  12 taking of fish.'"  13  14 And I read this to you before:  15  16 "No mention is made of those two.  Now,  17 certainly those two might be called  18 subsistent items, correct?"  19  20  21 And then he goes on to talk about that.  22 A   But as he pointed -- sorry.  23 Q   I am now directing your attention to his report which  24 makes a distinction between beaver and the right of  25 men who do not have a land stake to trap marten.  Now,  26 doesn't that suggest to you that there is a tighter  27 control with respect to beaver?  28 A  As I understand Dr. Ray on line 16, 17 of this page  29 13579 here that you've asked me to read, he is saying  30 that he's basing what he says on the Hudson's Bay  31 Company records and he complains that the record is  32 not adequate when it comes to anything but beaver.  33 Therefore, there is a distortionate emphasis on beaver  34 as a result of the trader's preoccupation with beaver  35 which is reflected in the documents he's consulting.  36 That's what I understand him to be saying here.  37 Q   Yes.  But he -- Dr. -- Mr. Brody, I directed your  38 attention to his opinion.  39 A   I haven't got a copy of his opinion in front of me.  40 Q   Which is quoted -- it is quoted at line 39.  41 A  Well, I'd like to have a look at his opinion.  I  42 haven't read his opinion.  43 Q   Well, I am directing your attention to, quote:  44  45 "'In contrast to beaver some other resources were  46 not as carefully husbanded.'"  47 15536  1 A   I can't judge how Dr. Ray is using the evidence here  2 from one short sentence.  I would need to read that  3 section of the report, which I can do if you pass it  4 to me.  5 Q   Mr. Brody, isn't it a perfectly logical proposition  6 that beaver which inhabit streams and don't stray very  7 far away from them are less mobile than marten and are  8 more valuable?  They possess those two  9 characteristics?  10 A   It would follow they would be more carefully  11 husbanded?  12 Q   No.  More tightly controlled.  13 A  Well, I'd have to look at the evidence, Mr. Goldie.  14 You are asking me to go into something here that --  15 Q   Let me go back to something that you have expressed  16 views on.  17 A   Uh-huh.  18 Q   Why would hunter-gatherers divide land up anyway?  19 A  Well, you are asking one of the most difficult  20 questions that anthropologists face and --  21 Q   Well, instead of characterizing the difficulty, you  22 have expressed opinions on this, haven't you?  23 A   There is a connection between --  24 Q   Well, can you express -- can you answer my question?  25 MR. JACKSON:  Well, Mr. Goldie has asked a question.  Perhaps he  26 could give the witness an opportunity to respond.  27 THE COURT:  Well, I took the sense that the witness was seeking  28 to discuss something else without answering the  29 question.  The question was a very simple one.  Why  30 would hunter-gatherers divide up the land anyway?  31 That's the question.  It seems to me that is one that  32 is capable of being answered or of not being answered.  33 No discussion is required.  We can have discussion  34 afterwards if the witness wishes.  35 A   It's a —  36 THE COURT:  Do you understand the question?  37 A   It's a simple question, my lord, I agree.  But it's  38 one that has a rather complicated answer.  First of  39 all, hunter-gatherers in my experience do divide up  40 the land in various ways, either by convention over  41 long periods of time.  There is an association between  42 families and areas or between subcultural groups and  43 areas, and there is also a connection between  44 hunter-gatherers who are focused on a large resource  45 which comes to them and a great preoccupation with  46 territoriality.  And in the anthropological literature  47 there seems to be evidence for a simple correlation 15537  1 between peoples who rely on a large resource that  2 comes to them at one place, thanks to which they spend  3 a part of the year there in large numbers, the people  4 I mean are there in large numbers, a correlation  5 between that and a great deal of territoriality and  6 preoccupation with property relations and boundaries  7 and so on.  Now, that's not an explanation of why it  8 happens.  Only that there is this correlation.  And if  9 you ask me why it happens, I would want you to give me  10 time to think and try and review the anthropological  11 theory in this matter.  12 MR. GOLDIE:  13 Q   Well, you gave the answer in the Apsassin case, didn't  14 you?  15 A  Well, you can refer me to it.  16 Q   No.  I mean did you or did you not?  17 A   I don't remember asking and answering that particular  18 question, but I might have done.  It's quite long time  19 since I wrote it.  20 Q   Well, you —  21 A  Mr. Goldie, if in the Apsassin case you have somewhere  22 where I deal with this, perhaps you can direct me to  23 it and I can refresh my memory.  24 Q   Well, I have directed you to it.  25 A  Well —  26 Q   If you would like to look back under tab 3, and this  27 is only a part of it.  You were testifying to the  28 effect that the imposition of the trapline  29 registration created divisions and that that confined  30 the people, and you said the result of that was to  31 divide the people.  Do you recall that?  32 A   I recall this part of the --  33 Q   Yes.  34 A   -- the argument, yes.  35 Q   Yes.  And then you went on to say:  "I don't  36 understand how -- "  37  38 I am sorry, the court went on at about line five, 1839  39 under tab 3, my lord, and I read -- I have read this.  40  41 "I don't understand how the confinement then to  42 smaller areas would divide the people.  Would you  43 explain that, because it seems to me that at first  44 blush the wider the area you're roaming about, the  45 more you're likely to be divided.  That's what I  46 don't understand."  47 1  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45  Q  46  47  A  15538  Now, just pausing there.  You had testified that the  Beaver people roamed at large at the area and you  confirmed that this morning?  I think I talked about this this morning, yes.  Yes.  And your answer to that question was:  "The more you're roaming, the more the hunting  system can work well."  Now, just pausing there.  The less restrictions within  the territory the better the hunting is, isn't that  correct?  Yes.  Which helps explain why the southern  Wet'suwet'en territories are very large in extent and  why the Wet'suwet'en laws provide for the possibility  of hunting in adjacent territories in many cases.  There is an attempt in the Wet'suwet'en arrangements  within the legal system of the Wet'suwet'ens so to  speak to combine a great attention to territoriality  which coincides with there being focused on a large  salmon resource and the requirements of hunting and  trapping which, as you point out, is made easier if  people have relatively large areas to move over.  Well, are you --  This goes a lot -- I am sorry.  You were talking about a hunting -- hunter-gathering  society which had no internal boundaries?  No visible internal boundaries, but does have habits  of seasonal rounds.  There are places to which  families tend to go.  One could draw a pattern.  I  think it came up in the Apsassin case.  I think we had  a lot of evidence on these patterns in which where we  could see that one particular set of relations went in  one area and one case I remember the northeast area of  the Dunne-za total territory tended always to be used  by one family and then the western area by another  family.  And those are patterns of land use without  clear boundaries in the case of the Dunne-za, because  they are as we are saying earlier a more flexible  Athabaskan.  They criss-crossed?  They criss-crossed and during the winter they would  move back and forth.  That was the evidence of the  people.  They roamed at large.  Now, we have been over this  several times, and --  Roamed at large is your expression and not mine, you 15539  1 know.  2 Q   Well —  3 A   They roamed, but at large implies to is no concern at  4 all with where they might be.  They are very clear  5 about where their families tend to go.  And of course  6 you go where you know the territory, and you acquire  7 your knowledge from going with your elders, and so  8 there tends to be always be a groove warning in a  9 hunter-gatherer's system by the habit that you have  10 acquired through a lifetime.  11 Q   Yes.  Your answer was the more you are roaming the  12 more the hunting system can work well and the more  13 that as you roam you will criss-cross with other  14 people's paths.  I guess that's what I have in mind.  15 Now, did you give that evidence?  16 A   Yes, that's right.  17 Q   All right.  Thank you.  And then the court said:  18  19 "     If you're in a similar area, aren't you more  20 likely to criss-cross each other?  21  22 A     Well, no because the people with whom you  23 would want to criss-cross paths are in another  24 area, which you're not supposed to go, according  25 to the registration rules."  26  27 Now, doesn't that -- weren't you intending to suggest  28 by that that the hunting system works less well where  29 the roaming is confined?  30 A   Yes, that's in a very general way true, but as I was  31 saying a moment ago in hunting-gathering systems where  32 there is a concern with boundaries and territoriality,  33 the culture seems to be seeking to establish a balance  34 between the advantages that they evidently find in  35 territoriality and the advantages they evidently find  36 in having large hunting territories.  37 Q   The concern that you speak of arises because there has  38 been a division made for the purposes of the economic  39 activity of trapping, isn't that correct?  40 A  A division -- a division where?  41 Q   A division of territory, the creation of  42 territoriality.  43 A   The creation of traplines in the registration  44 program --  45 Q   No, I am sorry.  I don't want you to go off on that,  46 because I am not talking about registration.  I'm  47 talking about Wet'suwet'en now.  And of course, the 1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  15540  territoriality concept long antedates the registration  system of traplines, doesn't it?  Oh, it long antedates the white man's fur trade.  Yes.  Yes.  Well, that's your belief?  Well, I think you just agreed to it and it's widely  accepted.  Excuse me.  I am talking about before registration of  traplines which you've testified took place in 1926.  Oh, yes, it's long before then.  I mean it's long  before I would expect again from an anthropological  view, it's very unlikely that the territoriality is  anything but a considerable historical depth, time  depth.  Mr. Brody, can you now explain why a hunting-gathering  society which maximizes the gathering of food in the  fashion you described the Beaver did, would ever want  to impose upon itself any restrictions, to use your  word, on the roaming?  Why do cultures preoccupy themselves --  Can you answer that?  -- in territoriality?  I mean it goes to the whole  question of the nature of culture.  There are many  societies in the world which have great concerns with  territoriality which seem not to be maximizing  economic advantage.  Life is not shaped by the  maximizing of economic advantage.  One can speculate  as an ecologist or a biologist about what arrangement  of human life would best yield the fruit of the land.  But actually people don't do what ecologists and  biologists expect them to do.  They have cultural  systems.  Cultural systems are about all sorts of  things that may not seem quite rational to you or me.  Well, what's your explanation for the Wet'suwet'en --  I don't have an explanation.  -- imposing upon themselves a system of territoriality  which reduces the effectiveness of the  hunting-gathering system?  Well, I -- my understanding of the Wet'suwet'en use of  their southern territories is that it really didn't  severely impair their ability to harvest effectively.  As I was saying, it's very striking when you look at  those territories how large the Wet'suwet'en southern  territories are.  It's very striking when you look at  Wet'suwet'en law, how flexible it is when it comes to  having access to farthest territory, the caretaking 15541  1 laws and so.  It's quite striking that Wet'suwet'en  2 have one or two areas that although owned by the  3 houses according to their arrangement nonetheless  4 constitution semi-open areas.  There is a balancing  5 going on here in the culture between the  6 territoriality that seems to be important and the  7 hunting that seems to be important.  8 Q   Mr. Brody, would you not agree with me that the  9 territoriality became important when it became  10 important to maximize the trapping, the returns from  11 trapping?  12 A   Can you just ask that again?  I was diverting my mind.  13 Q   I suggest to you that the territoriality became  14 important when it became important to maximize the  15 returns from the trapping activity?  16 A  Well, I don't think that's the case.  17 Q   Well, you may not think it's the case, but would you  18 agree with it or disagree?  19 A   I am disagreeing with you.  20 Q   All right.  Now, can you tell me on what basis you  21 disagree?  And we're talking about the Wet'suwet'en.  22 A  We're talking about the Wet'suwet'en, I realize.  The  23 earliest accounts of Wet'suwet'en life in the records  24 indicate that there is already in place, and this is  25 in the 1820s, 30s, there is already in place a Feast  26 system.  There is nowhere in the anthropological world  27 where there is something like a Feast system without  28 territoriality.  So if territory is in place inside  29 the Feast system in the early nineteenth century, then  30 I imagine it's been in place for quite a long time.  31 Q   That's your imagination at work?  32 A   It's my anthropology at work.  33 Q   I see.  And if the Feast was introduced or adopted  34 from the Gitksan?  35 A   It wouldn't have been in place in the 1820s.  36 THE COURT:  I am sorry, it wouldn't have been?  37 A   I don't think it would have been in place in the  38 1820s.  39 MR. GOLDIE:  40 Q   Why not?  41 A   Because it would take a very long time for an  42 institution as complicated as that to establish itself  43 at the centre of another culture's way of organizing  44 itself.  45 Q   Well, in your report do you not suggest that these two  46 groups have been influencing each other for many, many  47 years? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  13  A  14  15  Q  16  A  17  18  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  Q  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  15542  Many hundreds of years, yes.  Yes.  I —  I suggest that.  Is the Feast -- well, you have already testified or  you have told us that the Feast system is not a  feature of the hunter-gatherer society that is  exemplified by the Beaver?  Beaver don't have a Feast system, no.  No.  Well, now -- and you would agree with me, I take  it, that the trapping activity is one that is entirely  related to the white man, trapping I mean by that  trapping for exchange?  Well, exchange and trade were part of Wet'suwet'en and  Gitksan life long before the coming of the white man.  I said trapping for exchange.  Well, they probably trapped for exchange using  deadfalls.  There is a lot of indication of a deadfall  trapping technology.  Yes.  And snares, snaring in a way is one of the most  productive forms of what we would call trapping and  snaring is an ancient technology too and probably was  done for trade with neighbouring groups, in particular  with the peoples to the north.  Yes.  To use your own definition, a trapping with  steel traps or what I understand to be called  ironworks --  I don't understand to be called ironworks.  That seems  to be coming from Fraser.  That steel perhaps provided  by the traders is what I have in mind, yes.  Yes.  That activity trapping with those implements and  for the purposes of trading with the fur traders is a  reason, is it not, for subdividing territories on an  exclusive use basis at least so far as the Beaver is  concerned?  I don't see why it's a reason for so doing unless the  culture already has these divisions.  If you go to  cultures to the east or cultures in the Arctic, the  fur trade comes along, introduces the steel traps,  encourages people successfully to become involved in  very intensive fur trading relations and there is no  development of subdivision of territories, nothing  among the Inuit and only vis-a-vis trapline  registration among the Dunne-za, many cultures in  Northern Canada where the fur trade does not produce  this subdivision, this territoriality, and this leads  me to believe that insofar as the fur trade with 15543  1 whites is associated with territoriality, the  2 territoriality is already there and what it may have  3 done is intensify it.  But its pre-existence seems the  4 most plausible way of seeing the historical flow of  5 circumstances.  6 Q   It may seem the most plausible to you, but I'm  7 suggesting to you that a hunter-gathering society  8 which is in a period of transition would find that at  9 least convenient to adopt a territorial system as a  10 means of exploiting the steel trapping relationship  11 with the fur trade, for example?  12 A   It didn't happen among the Dunne-za who were in  13 transition.  Very similar moment of history.  Didn't  14 happen amongst the Athabaskans along the Mackenzie  15 Valley in a period of transition, same moment of  16 cultural history.  Didn't happen amongst the Inuit of  17 the Mackenzie delta, the Inuvialuit.  It didn't happen  18 amongst the Central Eskimo.  It didn't happen among  19 the --  20 Q   And they were all trapping --  21 A   Let me finish.  It didn't happen -- it's very  22 important, this.  23 Q   Excuse me.  24 A   There is no evidence to suggest from the --  25 THE COURT:  We will take the adjournment now.  26  2 7 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  28  2 9 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you, Mr. Goldie.  30 MR. JACKSON:  My lord, I had a point I wished to make, my lord.  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  32 MR. JACKSON:  Might I suggest it would be appropriate, I have  33 asked Madam Reporter to locate the point which the  34 last question --  35 THE COURT:   No, Mr. Jackson.  Mr. Goldie can put the question  36 again.  The worst thing you can ever ask a reporter to  37 do is to read something back.  You are asking them to  38 change gears in a way that lawyers have never been  39 able to do themselves and I don't think we should  40 expect it of them.  41 MR. JACKSON:  The court reporter has in fact located the  42 question.  43 THE COURT:  It's an unfair thing to ask a reporter to do.  Go  44 ahead, Mr. Goldie.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you, my lord.  46 Q   Mr. Brodie, I interrupted you.  You were in the course  47 of giving an answer, because I understood you to be 1  2  3  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  30  31  32  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  A  15544  answering a question that I hadn't asked.  Now, I may  have been wrong in that understanding.  Would you like  to complete the answer that you felt I interrupted you  in giving?  I think it probably would be more helpful if you would  restate the question rather than have me --  I don't want to restate a question which give rise to  any ambiguity, so I am going to put another question  to you.  Is that satisfactory?  Well, I can remember where I was when we broke and we  can go back to it.  Well, if you remember where you were, you may want to  complete what you wanted to say.  I think I was pointing out that if you look at the  arrival at the fur trade, that is the white fur trade,  in societies in northern Canada, you see that they can  be there for a long period of time, involve people in  trading relations, people using steel traps,  exchanging their furs for other goods and then later  in the history for money, and yet not develop a  preoccupation with territoriality.  And I was giving  some examples of this from across the Canadian north  and I think I got as far as the Inuvialuit and I was  going to give the Inuit of the eastern Arctic and the  Naskapi of Labrador and the Inuit of the Labrador  coast, and it came into my mind I remember and that is  what I was doing.  Thank you.  Well, now, I want to put this question to  you:  Would you agree with me that the exploitation of  the beaver by the Wet'suwet'en in the fur trade could  be a reason why the concept of territoriality would be  fostered?  Well, it seems to me unlikely if it's not the case in  other regions.  You know, your question is could be, I  suppose.  Yes.  Territoriality could be intensified by a great deal of  importance attaching to one particular resource.  My  understanding of Wet'suwet'en territoriality is that  it was attached to that same resource, beaver, for the  Feast system.  Beaver was very important for the Feast  system, and therefore insofar as territoriality would  be associated with a preoccupation with beaver, that  would pre-date preoccupation with the beaver for the  fur trade.  Does that complete your answer?  Yes. 15545  1 Q   Yes.  Would you tell me, then, please, when these  2 territories were divided up?  3 A  Well, so long ago that nobody knows I think is my  4 short answer.  5 Q   Or the process by which these territories were divided  6 up?  7 A  Again, we must be clear we're talking about the  8 Wet'suwet'en house territories, not traplines as  9 registered.  10 Q   No, no.  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   I am sorry if I didn't make that clear.  13 A   No.  It was clear before the break, but I was just  14 making sure that I'm not getting the question wrong  15 here.  Ask it again, sorry, Mr. Goldie.  I've lost  16 you.  17 Q   Well, I asked you when the territories were divided up  18 and you said so long ago that nobody knows, is that  19 correct?  20 A   That's what I just said, yes.  21 Q   Yes.  What do you mean by that, a hundred years ago?  22 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie, your next question was what was the  23 process?  24 MR. GOLDIE:  25 Q   Yes.  That's correct.  After that answer.  26 A  Ah.  Well, having looked at the available evidence  27 which is the Kungax, I suppose is a very important  28 source of insights here, and having thought about it a  29 lot, I find that I don't have any picture of this  30 process.  I have a sense of migrations a very long  31 time ago, but I have no sense of a process by virtue  32 of which people become territorial.  I have the  33 impression that it was in place at least several  34 hundreds of years ago.  35 Q   You would not accept the proposition that it came  36 about in the early 1800s, and by early 1800s I mean  37 the date that you placed a few minutes ago as the date  38 of the relationship between the Wet'suwet'en and the  39 fur trader?  40 A   No, I wouldn't, because the record suggests that in  41 the early 1800s the Feast system was in place and  42 anthropologically it's hard to imagine a Feast system  43 without this kind of territoriality.  44 Q   Is that the only reason why you cannot accept my  45 suggestion to you?  46 A   I have the impression from available evidence that  47 Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en had had long and peaceful 15546  1 relations and this suggests some clear understanding  2 about that boundary and that may go to the question of  3 territoriality.  But all the evidence that I've seen  4 indicates and very long-standing Feast/territorial  5 system with a salmon fishery centred on Moricetown.  I  6 am struck by the fact that the archeological record  7 indicates some thousands of years of occupation in  8 Moricetown.  Insofar as I am looking at this  9 correlation between reliance upon a very abundant  10 salmon resource on the one hand and territoriality on  11 the other and insofar as there is this — there is  12 evidence of this long occupation in Moricetown I'm  13 inclined to believe that there was a long history of  14 territoriality as well.  15 Q   But you can't put a date on it and you can't give us a  16 sense of the process?  17 A   No, I can't.  18 Q   I'm going to ask you to consider a -- some evidence in  19 this case, Mr. Brody.  Are you familiar with -- I  20 think it's Exhibit 88A, but it is a letter from Mr.  21 Thomas George to Mr. S. Malinson, Indian agent, and  22 it's dated September 7, 1945.  Was that letter drawn  23 to your attention?  24 A   Doesn't ring any bells at the moment.  I'll have a  25 look.  Telkwa, is it?  26 Q   You may assume that the stamp "Gitksan-Carrier Tribal  27 Council Document Resource Centre" was not on the  28 original.  29 THE COURT:  Where do I find this document, Mr. Goldie?  30 MR. GOLDIE:  It's — it's tab 12.  Excuse me, Mr. Brody.  It's  31 tab 12, my lord, in -- it's in the documents for Dr.  32 Mills, Exhibit 955.  33 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  34 MR. GOLDIE:  But it was also put before Mr. Joseph, Alfred  35 Joseph.  36 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  37 THE REGISTRAR:  It's also Exhibit 88A, my lord, or 955-12,  38 Antonia Mills cross-examine Book 1.  3 9 THE COURT:  Thank you.  40 MR. JACKSON:  Could I ask if Mr. Goldie has another copy.  41 Counsel for the plaintiffs are unable to locate it.  42 MR. GOLDIE:  I am sorry, I don't.  It's just what I have here.  43 A   Of course I am taking a long time reading this.  44 MR. GOLDIE:  45 Q   Yes.  Please do.  46 A  My answer to your question is I haven't seen it  47 before. 15547  1 Q   Well, do you know who Mr. Thomas George is or was?  2 A   No, I can't place him in my --  3 Q   Well, the evidence here is that he held the name  4 Gisday wa.  5 A  Which is Alfred Joseph.  6 Q   Mr. Alfred Joseph's uncle?  7 A  Ah, yes.  8 Q   And he is writing here to Mr. Malinson, the Indian  9 agent and you have read the letter.  It relates  10 primarily to a dispute over the incursion by Mr.  11 Matthew Sam on the trapping territory which Mr. Thomas  12 George says is his or his family's.  And he says in  13 his letter:  14  15 "Remember at the meeting in Telkwa when the  16 other -- the older people who knew better swore to  17 prove that the Owen Lake was given to our  18 ancestors according to Indian rights years and  19 years ago.  And lately it was known as my uncle  20 Joseph's trapping ground.  Our uncle Joseph now is  21 the fifth generation from the time this trapping  22 place was given to our ancestors.  In our family  23 according to Indian ways uncle Joseph is still the  24 owner of the lower lake and its vicinities."  25  26 Now, would that not suggest to you that there were  27 ways in which these trapping grounds were divided up  28 according to Indian rights?  29 A  Well, I don't quite see why that follows.  Perhaps I  30 can look at that passage again.  It doesn't seem to  31 follow out what you are reading out to me, but that  32 people try and establish their rights to a land by  33 virtue of ancient or many generational histories of  34 course is something which we are very familiar in  35 Wet'suwet'en culture.  Where is the passage that you  36 are reading out here?  37 Q   The first paragraph.  38 A  Well, there are ways in which the people acquired  39 their territories years and years ago, to use the  40 expression of the paragraph.  Well evidenced in  41 accounts given by Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en elders.  If  42 that's what you are asking about.  43 Q   Well, the exact words that "Owen Lake was given to our  44 ancestors according to Indian rights years and years  45 ago."  Now, firstly, doesn't that suggest to you that  46 there were Indian rights which provided for the  47 division of territory? 1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  32  Q  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  40  Q  41  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  15548  Well, it might -- there might be Indian rights that  provide for the acquiring of territory by 'siisxw, for  example, and there is an equivalent of siisxw in  Wet'suwet'en law and I can't remember the name for it,  as compensation, that is to say siisxw, s-i-i-s-x-w.  There are ways of acquiring pieces of territory and  compensation.  There are very small pieces of  territory I know in the Gitksan system that have  passed from one house to another as compensation and  that has entailled a division years and years ago as  in some cases and in other cases not so many years  ago.  This is placed more precisely than that, isn't it?  More precisely than what?  Years and years ago?  It's five generations, does it say there?  "Known as my uncle Joseph's trapping ground our  Uncle Joseph now is the fifth generation from the  time this trapping place was given to our  ancestors.  In our family according to Indian ways  uncle Joseph is still the owner of the lower lake  and its vicinities."  Unquote.  Well, that suggests the possibility that at some point  five generations ago, though in my experience  Wet'suwet'en and Gitksan used generations rather  loosely, and it certainly it suggests that some time  ago this territory changed hands according to Indian  law.  Perhaps there was the equivalent of a siisxw.  Yes.  And forgive me for not remember the Wet'suwet'en word  for it.  You know of no Kungax to that effect, do you?  In relation to that territory?  Yes.  Well, I'd have to do an awful lot of reading to find  out the answer to that.  Well, that's not the only view that has been taken  that five generations has a certain significance in  terms of the territorial aspects of the Wet'suwet'en  people, is it?  I don't know.  Well, there is a -- tab 13 in Exhibit 955 is --  995.  No, no.  I am sorry, it's -- it's 955, the book of 1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  15549  documents of Dr. Mills and this is a letter from  Julian Steward.  Do you know who he is?  Yes.  And can you tell his lordship?  Julian Steward was an anthropologist who worked in the  area, Carrier area.  And June 30, 1940 he wrote to Dr. Jenness.  You know  who he is?  Yes.  Anthropologist who worked in the area also.  He says apropos of his investigation under phratries:  "Five generations ago the Stuart Lake hunting  lands were distributed in two solid blocks, one  belonging to each phratry."  Had you heard that proposition?  Yeah, I have heard that proposition.  And I take it you don't accept it?  No, I don't find a lot of evidence to support it.  Yes.  Well, I have just shown you a letter which was  written some five years after Dr. Steward by Mr.  Thomas George in which the same thing appears with  respect to a particular territory?  It's not the same thing at all, Mr. Goldie.  As I  understand the Steward opinion, it is that  Wet'suwet'en territories were divided into two large  areas by phratry.  The letter you showed me suggests  there was a transfer of territory from an unknown  person to the family of the writer of the letter.  Who  knows whether it was from the other phratry to his own  or within the phratry or among three or four phratries  or whatever.  Why not the distribution within the phratry?  I just don't know.  That is not a piece of evidence in  support of the Steward opinion in my view.  Well, I just want to be sure that how much of these  you are rejecting.  How much of what that I am --  The Steward opinion is that there was a distribution  of two blocks of the Stuart Lake hunting area, is that  right?  Well, perhaps would you let me look at what you have  got of Steward's there and I can tell you what I think  it means.  Yes.  Where is the passage that you are --  It's in the top of the second page. 1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  Q  27  2 8 THE  COURT  2 9 MR.  GOLDI  30 THE  COURT  31 MR.  GOLDI  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  Q  15550  All right.  Well, I'm struck reading this by him  saying that he finds two phratries at Stuart Lake  which, of course, is not Wet'suwet'en territory, and  four at Babine Lake, which is at least in part -- no,  which is much closer to Wet'suwet'en territory.  It's  not in Wet'suwet'en territory.  So if you are asking  me to say that a letter that is written about  Wet'suwet'en territory supports a theory that is about  Stuart Lake territory, I am confessed to being  puzzled.  I am not suggesting that one is written with respect  to the other.  I'm just suggesting that five  generations ago one's from 1940 and one's from 1945,  events happened which are consistent with the creation  of exclusive trapping rights or territories?  Steward's account of the phratries at Stuart Lake  doesn't seem to me to have a lot to do with the letter  you're giving me, apart from the coincidence of the  five generations.  Yes.  An episode.  An episode?  Of a transfer of territory five generations ago.  I am  sure there were transfers of territory in every  generation.  Well, Mr. Brody, would you not agree with me that Mr.  Thomas George's statement --  :  Tab 13 -- sorry, tab 12.  E:  No.  I am going to -- his is at tab 12, my lord.  :  Yes.  12.  E:  "Owen Lake was given to our ancestors according to  Indian rights years and years ago and lately was  known as my uncle Joseph's trapping ground.  Our  uncle Joseph now is the fifth generation from the  time this trapping place was given to our  ancestors.  In my family according to Indian ways  uncle Joseph is still the owner of the Owen Lake  and its vicinities."  How old was uncle Joseph at at the time, do we know?  He was an elderly man.  So we would be talking about six generations, not  five.  His uncle Joseph is at the fifth generation as  an elderly man.  Now is the fifth generation? 1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  20  Q  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  46  A  47  15551  Uncle Joseph is the fifth generation.  At the time this letter was written.  1945.  Yes.  And Steward is talking about five generations.  So  that's six generations So we are one generation adrift  here.  Well, perhaps they are.  You would not expect  complete --  No.  People are very loose when they are talking about  generations my experience.  Yes.  But we are talking about events which happened  in the 1820s?  Well, we are in the case of the letter.  Yes.  The Gisday wa territory.  And we are in the case of Steward?  I am not so sure about that.  I cannot quite fathom  the Steward document.  Let me get on to the point I want to put to you.  And  that is, would you not agree that the event described  by Thomas George is consistent with events relating to  the creation of exclusive territories for the  exploitation of fur bearing animals?  It's not inconsistent with it, if that's what you  mean.  It doesn't seem to bear much relation to it.  All I understand from the letter is that a transfer of  territory took place these five or six generations  ago.  And I am sure if we, you know, looked into it  you might find some account in the Wet'suwet'en oral  tradition of this event.  We might find out something  about it.  That's pure speculation on your part?  If I wasn't under cross I could perhaps conduct some  interviews and find out some of the background to it.  Yes.  But typically we would -- we know that there are many  shifts of territories in relation to as I said things  things like siisxw and pieces of territory.  Siisxw  was a rare example.  It's a compensatory system that  uses territory as an aspect of the compensation.  So  we are going to get in each generations shifts of  territory according to Indian law.  But the best you can do is to say that this is not  inconsistent with the creation of territories?  Well, it doesn't say anything to me about the creation  of territories.  It says that territories exist.  It 1  2  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  Q  32  33  34  35  A  36  37  38  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  15552  suggests to me that territories existed six  generations ago, but we'd have to look into it more  closely vis-a-vis that particular territory.  Yes.  And you think -- you are unable to give me any  date at which time these territories were created?  My opinion is that these territories are a very -- I  am trying to choose my words carefully here.  That my  opinion is that the Wet'suwet'en have had these kinds  of house and clan territories for some hundreds of  years and certainly a long time prior to the fur  trade.  And you are unable of course to agree with me because  that would be inconsistent with the support you are  providing the plaintiff in this case?  Inconsistent with the evidence I've reviewed.  I have  reviewed a lot of evidence in this regard.  I have  talked to lots of people.  I've read the articles that  pertain to this issue.  I have thought a lot about it.  There are many anthropological questions that it gives  rise to which interests me greatly, particularly the  connection between persons dependent on this salmon  resource and the formal institution of a Feast and  territorial system.  These are matters of great  interest to anthropologists and therefore of great  interest to me.  And I have noted a lot of evidence  and the conclusion I have come to is that the  Wet'suwet'en have had this system for some hundreds of  years at least and perhaps a lot longer.  To push it  further back in time one starts to look at the  archeological record and that's not my speciality.  Now, I want to go to another subject.  You spend  considerable time in describing the removal of  Wet'suwet'en from farms.  I think that's a page starts  at page a hundred and --  Sorry.  I don't think I spend any time talking about  the removal of Wet'suwet'en from farms.  From their  homes and villages and cabins I think.  You were about  to refer me to a page.  Yes.  Well, you start off by saying --  You haven't given me the page.  114 you start off by saying "since the first farmers  moved in."  Just a moment, please.  I am just relieved of this  pile of things.  Thank you.  Have you got the page?  Yes.  You start off by saying: 15553  1  2 "Since the first farmers moved in at the very end  3 of the last century, Wet'suwet'en history has been  4 marked by the way in which whites have taken and  5 used the Bulkley Valley."  6  7 And then you say:  8  9 "....  family after family of Wet'suwet'en were  10 forced from their homes, and even out of ancient.  11 villages."  12  13 And down the page, midway down the page you say:  14  15 "Wet'suwet'en houses were burnt; their farms  16 seized; clusters of houses and buildings razed to  17 the ground."  18  19 A   You correct me.  In some of those villages there were  20 clearings for grazing that amounted to farms, yes.  21 Q   Well, it's your word is it not, farms?  22 A   Yes.  Inter alia.  23 THE COURT:  We haven't found that at the page?  24 A   It's the middle of the page, my lord.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  It's about midway down the first complete  26 paragraph, my lord, about halfway down the page.  27 THE COURT:  On page 114?  28 MR. GOLDIE:  114.  2 9 THE COURT:  All right.  30 MR. GOLDIE:  It's one, two, three —  31 THE COURT:  Oh, yes I have it.  Yes.  Thank you.  Thank you.  32 Where did you start reading?  33 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I drew the witness' attention to the first  34 four lines on the page.  35 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  All right.  Yes, all right.  36 MR. GOLDIE:  Mark the event.  And then to the sentence that  37 begins "Wet'suwet'en houses were burnt; their farms  38 seized," etc.  3 9 THE COURT:  Thank you.  40 MR. GOLDIE:  41 Q   And farming, of course, is not an activity of  42 hunter-gatherers.  I think we established that this  43 morning?  44 A   I think we established this morning it was an activity  45 within the mixed economy.  46 Q   Yes.  And again, it is a product of technology and the  47 example which the Wet'suwet'en didn't possess until 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  MR.  32  MR.  33  THE  34  MR.  35  36  37  38  39  40  THE  41  MR.  42  THE  43  MR.  44  45  MR.  46  THE  47  MR.  15554  the white man came, whether it was the priest or the  farm, it doesn't really matter?  A   That's right.  When we are talking about farming here  you must remember we are talking about hay and  grazing, not about plowing and seeding.  Q   Are you serious about that?  A   I think the early farms in the area were among the  Wet'suwet'en the grazing of land and hay.  If you are  talking about the earliest, the earliest use of land  for this purpose.  Q   Well, I thought that your evidence in this section  related to fairly specific incidents arising out of  settling the Bulkley River by white farmers or white  settlers in the first two decades of the century?  A   That's right, yes.  Q   All right.  Are you suggesting that the Wet'suwet'en  were not farming in the sense of plowing, tilling,  raising crops by that time?  A   I am not sure what these farms included.  What the  Wet'suwet'en referred to in McKenna McBride, if I  remember rightly, in the 1908 petition is barns,  fenced and cleared land.  Q   Well —  A   I'd have to look again at the record in order to put  together the nature of the farming at different points  of the history.  Q   Well, let's take the document that I referred to  earlier.  It's under tab 17 of Volume 2 and it's a  statement made by Father Godfrey to the Royal  Commission on April 26, 1915.  JACKSON:  It's Volume 3, Mr. Goldie.  GOLDIE:  Three, I am sorry, thank you.  COURT:  What tab?  GOLDIE:  Tab 17, my lord.  Now, Father Godfrey is recorded  as saying that he's glad to see the commission there  and that the Indians have been asking him almost every  day when the commission was going to come and then he  says -- does your lordship have the sentence beginning  the words "the reason for this desire"?  COURT:  On the first page?  GOLDIE:  Yes.  COURT:  Wait a minute.  I'll find it.  GOLDIE:  It's about two, four, six, eight, nine lines down.  A   Nine lines down from where it says "Godfrey."  GOLDIE:  Where it says "Mr. Chairman."  COURT:  Yes, I have it.  GOLDIE: 15555  1 Q  2 "The reason for this desire on the part of the  3 Indians is that they feel that they have some real  4 grievances, or at least they have needs which they  5 expect that this Commission is able to help them  6 with, and they have asked me to talk for them.  7 The main grievance around here which may be summed  8 up in the general way is that they desire to have  9 a little more land allotted to them than they have  10 at the present time.  A large portion of the land  11 in and around the Moricetown Reserve is not what  12 you would call exactly good agricultural land."  13  14 Now, that implies something more than grazing, does it  15 not?  16 A   I am -- I am not sure what he would have meant.  Let's  17 keep going for a moment.  18 Q   All right.  Well, what do you understand is meant by  19 the word agricultural?  2 0 A  Well, my image of the Wet'suwet'en farms is much more  21 clearing that are fenced, hayed and grazed, barns for  22 storing hay, in the southern parts of their  23 territories, particularly up the Bulkley Valley,  24 Bulkley/Morrice Valley.  Not -- my image isn't  25 agricultural activity beyond gardening.  That is my  26 image has never been of them plowing large areas of  27 land.  But it may not be an issue here.  28 Q   That wasn't my question.  I asked what you understand  29 by the word agricultural?  30 A   Oh, in my own mind.  The use of land for farming.  31 Q   Yes.  And then he goes on to say:  32  33 "There are large stretches of land on both sides  34 of the river, but owing to action of the river in  35 washing away the banks, there is practically  36 nothing else left but gravel benches.  I have  37 examined this place a good many times, and in a  38 good many instances I find there is only one, two  39 or three inches of good soil, and sometimes hardly  40 one inch, which makes this part of the country, as  41 far as the Indians are concerned, very poor from  42 an agricultural standpoint, it not being fit even  43 for pasturage land."  44  45 Now, what is your understanding of pasturage?  46 A  Well, what I was just saying about grazing.  47 Q   Yes. 15556  1 "The local Indians feel here that they want to  2 keep an even step with the white man.  They have  3 looked into the ways and the means of living of  4 the white population, and for the past ten years,  5 or ever since they came into contact with the  6 white man, and especially during the last three or  7 four years, during the railway construction days,  8 they have endeavored as far, as they were able, to  9 get work from the white man and also take out  10 contracts for them and, in every instance, as far  11 as I am advised they have carried out their work  12 to the satisfaction of both parties.  Moreover  13 they have, since they have come into contact with  14 the white man, gone in more towards making a  15 living by the tilling soil."  16  17 If I may just pause for a moment.  Tilling soil is  18 according to your understanding would include plowing?  19 A   Yes.  I'm -- that's what Godfrey is saying here.  20 Q  21 "But as I have said before the land here is not of  22 the very best and they have had a rather hard time  23 of it, especially now that their hunting and  24 trapping grounds have in a great measure been  25 depleted.  In coming to the stock and cattle owned  26 by the Indians, we have figured that on those  27 three reserves of ours there are owned by these  28 men 192 horses at the present time, and we have  29 figured up as high as 72 head of cattle which are  30 actually owned by the Indian population on these  31 three Indian reserves.  There is a great desire on  32 the part of the Indians towards the increasing of  33 their stock, and, I dare say, every one of them  34 wants to launch into cattle raising, and in order  35 to do this, they desire to have a little more  36 land, so that they will be better able to feed  37 their stock than they are at the present time.  38 The agricultural implements which are owned by  39 these men, individually purchased by their own  40 money during the construction days, are in keeping  41 exactly with their general intentions.  I see on  42 the list here, which they have given me, ten  43 mowing machines, eight hay racks."  44  45 Something --  4 6 THE COURT:  14 plows?  47       A   14 plows. 1 MR.  GOLDIE  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  A   '  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  A   '  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  15557  "14 plows, 21 wagons and 7 harrows, actually owned  by these men."  Now, the plows and harrows of course are implements  which are involved in the cultivation of land?  Yes.  And I go on, quote:  "On the other side some of the Indians have gone  into raising pigs and chickens and I dare say most  of the Indians here will, in a short time, be  doing the same, providing they get the necessary  land so as to enable them to raise the feed  necessary for that kind of stock."  Now, just pausing there.  Is there anything in the  factual description that Father Godfrey is quoted as  having given with which you disagree?  Well, I can't disagree with his numbers.  In fact I am  remembering as you read that some D.I.A. annual  reports which give these numbers to the Wet'suwet'en  which I looked at in 1983 and it would be interesting  to check these numbers against those numbers.  As to  his characterization of the Wet'suwet'en's intention  and their view of land, I have to confess to some  uncertainty.  Why?  Well, first of all, Father Godfrey is a missionary and  has a particular point of view, a particular idea of  what civilization is, a particular wish for the Indian  people's futures.  He is also, I am sure, very upset  on behalf of the Indians.  He knew about them and I  know a little bit of his views from the Barbeau Beynon  archives.  He's talked about a little bit by Barbeau  in one of the accounts, and I think he's probably very  upset about the poverty of the people at Moricetown  and wishes to help them in whatever way he sees is  appropriate.  Then I go on:  "May I draw the attention of this Commission to  the fact that the general situation of the Indians  is continually changing."  You wouldn't disagree with that?  There is mixed economy again. 15558  1 Q   Yes.  2  3 "Formerly, all these men made their living by  4 hunting, going out in the wintertime about  5 September till about Christmas and from the middle  6 of January to -- "  7  8 Something or other.  9 THE COURT:  To the end of June.  10 MR. GOLDIE:  11 Q  12  13 " -- the end of June or the middle of July.  Those  14 Indians were engaged in hunting all the various  15 fur-bearing animals, and then, after that, selling  16 their pack to the local stores."  17  18 Now, just pausing there.  That is a description of the  19 trading -- of the trapping, is it not?  20 A   Yes.  He's probably including the hunting as well.  21 When he says the various fur-bearing animals I imagine  22 at this period he's also talking about moose whose  23 furs were not usually traded.  24 Q   But then he goes on to say:  25  26 "And then, after that, selling their pack to the  27 local stores."  28  29 That's to the local traders, is that not correct?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Yes.  So Father Godfrey uses the word hunting as a  32 synonym or interchangeably with trapping, doesn't he?  33 A   Hunting all the various fur-bearing animals, he's  34 using hunting to mean hunting and trapping I suppose.  35 Q   Yes.  I suggest it's interchangeable in his mind.  36 A   It's interchangeable in the context of that sentence.  37 I don't know about his mind.  38 Q   All right.  Well, his mind so far as is revealed by  39 that sentence?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Then he goes on:  42  43 "But now, owing to the influx of whites into this  44 part of the country, a great many of their hunting  45 grounds are occupied by homesteads or have been  4 6 purchased by them, the whites, from the Government  47 so that you can easily understand, gentlemen, that 15559  1 there may be a natural race feeling between the  2 whites and the Indian population, though, I dare  3 say, this feeling is not acute in any way.  I have  4 had very few examples of any disputes which could  5 not have been smoothed over by mutual consent; in  6 fact, I, myself, as missionary, with the Indians  7 of this part of the country for a great many  8 years, never had to deal with any questions of  9 that kind, but I dare say there may be a danger in  10 the future if the Indians are still prevented from  11 getting their living in the way they formerly did.  12 An Indian looks upon his hunting ground as his own  13 farm."  14  15 Would you agree with that proposition?  16 A   Yes, of course he is using the word farm  17 metaphorically there.  The farm that produces the  18 resources that he depends upon.  The farm that  19 produces the hunting as well the trapping.  20 Q   He goes on -- I am sorry, yes.  21 A  And the grazing lands.  22 Q   Then he goes on:  23  24 "Many times they tell me I have so many beaver on  25 my hunting grounds, and I know as a matter of fact  26 that no Indian ever trespasses on the grounds of  27 his neighbour."  28  29 I suppose you would agree with that?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And then he goes on to say:  32  33 "And long as that system was in vogue and as long  34 as the Indians are in a position to use these  35 hunting grounds, I don't think there will be any  36 trouble.  With one accord they said to me 'When  37 the Commissioners come here you speak to them and  38 tell them that we want to follow the white man's  39 ways of living.  We have actually gone into it  40 seriously and we see there is only one chance of  41 us of making a living for ourselves and our  42 children, in following the example of the whites,  43 namely in ploughing our ground, raising cattle,  44 raising horses, and in this way we will be able to  45 make our living."  46  47 Unquote.  Do you have any question but what that is? 15560  1 A   Could you just give me --  2 Q   That the missionary is accurate in his summation of  3 the instructions given him by his parishioners?  4 A   I am very skeptical about missionaries in their view  5 of the instructions they are given.  Missionaries have  6 particular ideas of what is appropriate for Indian  7 people.  The job of a missionary and many missionaries  8 are perfectly helpful in their relations towards  9 Indians as they see helpfulness, but missionaries are  10 there to change people.  The job of the missionary is  11 to change people's way of being in the world.  To  12 change their way of describing the world, thinking  13 about the world, to change their habits, to make them  14 Christian, thrifty, and so on and so forth.  It's a  15 whole package.  And when a missionary says I have been  16 told by the people they wanted to be Christians, I  17 would be pretty -- you know, I would wonder.  Or they  18 say I have been told by the people we want to be  19 farmers, we want to raise chickens, I am afraid I ask  20 myself well, to what extent is this man speaking, with  21 a very special interest.  He wants the people to want  22 that.  Fits in with his idea of what's best for them.  23 And I therefore am very disinclined to believe this  24 document in those regards anyway at face value.  25 Q   And then he goes on:  26  27 "When I asked them 'What do you think is most  28 necessary for you in order to do that, well,' some  29 of them say,"  30  31 And then he goes on to quote them about getting more  32 land.  And that goes on over the page.  33 A  What page are you turning over to now?  34 Q   I wasn't going to read you all of page 3.  35 A  My copy of page 3 seems to come after.  Oh, yes.  I am  36 confused by the numbering here.  37 THE COURT:  At the top, Mr. Goldie, using the numbers at the  38 top, Mr. Goldie?  39 MR. GOLDIE:  I beg your pardon?  40 THE COURT:  Using the numbers at top?  41 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, I am.  I appreciate there are numbers at the  42 top and bottom, and the right-hand side.  43 A  And the five on my copy looks very like a three.  I  44 wonder if you mean --  45 THE COURT:  Use the typewritten number at the top.  46 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  47 Q   Now, as I say, I simply summarize that he purports to 15561  1 quote a number of conversations with people about the  2 inadequacy of their land, the poor quality of the land  3 and the -- then at midway down the page after he talks  4 about summer pasture land?  5 A   On which page are we now?  6 Q   This is four.  He says:  7  8 "There is another thing they want in order to  9 afford then better facilities to cope with the  10 white men which at the present time they are  11 unable to do owing to lack of education."  12  13 And they talk about disputes and the desire to have  14 schools.  And then at the bottom, medical assistance,  15 and then over the page at about halfway down the page  16 you see in the left-hand column margin the word  17 "claims and grievances."  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   The sentence that precedes that:  20  21 "Another point I am asked to draw your attention  22 to is regarding some special claims and grievances  23 which have existed in the past.  We have had cases  24 - I dare say seven, eight or nine cases where  25 certain families have taken possession of certain  26 pieces of land conveniently located near a  27 beautiful lake, which land naturally offered  28 facilities for cutting hay, especially formerly  29 when there were no mowing machines.  Some of these  30 pieces of land have now been alienated by the  31 Government and have come into the possession of  32 some white settlers.  I dare say that one of these  33 cases is the case of a family around Tyee Lake or  34 McClure Lake.  Those living there are Tyee Lake  35 David, John Baptiste and Big Pierre.  Another  36 instance of this kind is a case of two of families  37 living at Canyon Creek."  38  39 And then he gives two names:  40  41 "Canyon Creek Thomas'widow and Canyon Creek  42 William.  Another case is that of Round Lake Tommy  43 and his brothers Jack Eugene, Louis Patrice and  44 George, together with their mother.  Another case  45 of this kind is the case of Bulkley Lake Isaac and  46 his family.  Another case of that is of Patrick  47 Kuldee; he is located around the railroad line-- " 15562  1 And so on.  He's there describing --.  Oh, and at the  2 top of the next page:  3  4 "Another case of this kind is that of Adam Michel  5 and his brother Nazare and young Denis and Joseph  6 Gokaha.  One more case is that of Mooseskin  7 Johnnie and August Peter."  8  9 And then those are all the people that you are talking  10 about in your report, is that not correct?  11 A   Yes.  A good proportion of them are referred to here.  12 Q   Yes.  So he's now bringing before the commission the  13 particular instances which you describe at -- starting  14 at page 114?  15 A   Yes.  Yes.  He's bringing forward some of the cases  16 of -- especially are notes of these villages that  17 where people have created grazing.  18 Q   Yes.  19 THE COURT:  Do you want to finish something in connection with  2 0 this document?  21 MR. GOLDIE:  22 Q   I was just going to say that without reading all of  23 it, I want to draw your attention to what was said at  24 the conclusion and that's page seven.  25 A   I don't have a page seven here.  26 Q   Well, perhaps that wasn't included in your -- in the  27 excerpt, but it goes on.  2 8 THE COURT:  I don't have a page seven either.  29 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, your excerpt ends with the written words at  30 end "may I add another name?"  31 THE COURT:  "In my request No. 4"?  32 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  33 THE COURT:  Yes.  That's where mine ends.  34 MR. GOLDIE:  35 Q   Well, it goes on:  36  37 "regarding the claims of Indians.  There is one  38 man who has his own living house on the place  39 - Peter Michel is his name - and a smokehouse  40 which was burned down by the settler who took up  41 that land.  This, in a general way, I think is the  42 principal demands of the Indian population -  43 their idea is to remain law-abiding citizens in  44 this country and to be able to live in peace and  45 harmony, and they have this Commission to give  46 them the necessary means to fulfill this ambition  47 of theirs, and they are quite confident that if 15563  1 this Commission looks thoroughly into their  2 claims, at least if they cannot get some of these  3 places which they owned since time immemorial, at  4 least a reasonable compensation should be given  5 to them."  6  7 And then he goes on to complete, and the chief was  8 called and sworn.  9  10 "Mr. Commissioner Macdowall:  You have heard the  11 address made by the Reverend Father on your  12 behalf - do you take that as being your own  13 address?  14 A The priest he said right."  15  16 Now, do you accept then that the evidence given at the  17 Commission or the statement given at the Commission by  18 Father Godfrey was confirmed immediately thereafter?  19 A   No, I don't.  "The priest he said right" is somebody  20 saying whatever the priest said is right.  I am sure  21 he didn't understand very much of it.  The whole  22 reason and rational for Father Godfrey — let me start  23 that again, that sentence again.  One of the reasons  24 for Father Godfrey taking it upon himself to speak at  25 the Commission lies in the fact that the people do not  26 speak English --  27 Q   Excuse me?  28 A   -- at all fluently, and I am sure they would have not  29 understood what he said.  There is a great deal of  30 evidence being given, and that's a presumption, I have  31 heard a great deal of evidence in my own work to  32 suggest a kind of influence the priest exercised over  33 the Wet'suwet'en.  Father Morice, and it's  34 incidentally revealed in Barbeau I think in 1922 or  35 '23, there is a remarkable account of Barbeau's  36 conversations with this very Father Godfrey, which  37 again are indicative of the way in which the people  38 are to some extent enthralled to the priest.  39 Q   Well, my lord, this is as good a time as any.  4 0 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Could we be furnished with  41 page seven of that document?  I guess it's out of your  42 collection, is it?  43 MR. JACKSON:  Yes, I can make that available, my lord.  44 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  9:30 tomorrow.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, that's satisfactory.  4 6 THE COURT:  Will you finish tomorrow?  47 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, I certainly will be. 15564  1 THE COURT:  Okay.  2 MR. GRANT:  My lord, there was one matter.  3 THE COURT:  Just a moment please.  Miss Koenigsberg?  4 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I would hope we would be able to finish.  I do  5 have some difficulty I can perhaps report on the Bear  6 Lake tape problem.  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  8 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I have been having people try and listen to  9 that and try and make a transcript and we are not  10 getting very far very fast, I can assure your  11 lordship.  I can't imagine in fact that it will be  12 available to me in any form that would be useful by  13 tomorrow.  Despite, I might say, considerable efforts.  14 To that end I note in Mr. Brody's report that he had  15 in fact made some transcript of some of those tapes  16 and I believe he gave evidence that he did have such  17 notes and they have not been provided to us and  18 despite our having asked for them and it would be of  19 great assistance I'm sure in deciphering at least some  20 of it if we had what notes he does have.  But having  21 said that, it will be my submission on the assumption  22 that a miracle doesn't occur overnight that in this  23 instance we have not had notice of the facts upon  24 which he relied at least for that chapter and I will  25 be making a submissions appropriately.  26 THE COURT:  Where do you live, Mr. Brody?  27 A   I live in the north of England in the Scottish border,  28 my lord, but the notes I made were simply transcribing  29 the portion of the tape as I listened to it that I  30 wanted to use in my report and I don't have any notes  31 that go beyond the passages in my report.  And I  32 looked for these.  Mr. Grant or Mr. Rush called me in  33 England when this issue first arose and asked me if I  34 had copies and I looked through my notes and couldn't  35 find anything beyond the passages that I had chosen.  36 I can understand your difficulty with the tape, I  37 might say, because it is difficult to understand.  38 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, I will hear you on that tomorrow  39 Ms. Koenigsberg.  Mr. Grant?  40 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  Sorry, Miss Koenigsberg.  41 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  That's fine.  42 MR. GRANT:  Sorry, my lord.  Just a question of scheduling, my  43 lord.  I just wanted to advise the court regarding two  44 of the witnesses coming up in May and I have advised  45 both of my friends and this just came to my attention  46 this afternoon.  As a result of the plaintiffs'  47 position it appears that we will be proposing and we 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  COURT:  GRANT:  THE COURT:  15565  are proposing that Mr. Galois who is scheduled for May  15 would actually proceed on the week of May 8 and  Miss Marsden who is scheduled for May 8 would proceed  on May 15.  Now, my friends, I just advised them of  this this afternoon, as soon as it came to my  attention, so they could enquire and of course I'm  not -- Mr. Goldie indicated he would just raise this  with Mr. Willms who's involved and I believe Miss  Koenigsberg will raise it with Mr. Macaulay who's  involved.  So I am just putting them on notice of this  and this is what we would be recommending and --  Yes.  -- if it's -- if it's at all possible that will  certainly familiarize his honour.  It is as awkward  for plaintiffs' counsel as it is for defence counsel.  It's not something that we --  What your doing is you are giving your friends  notice now that your present plan is to call Dr.  Galois on the 8th and Miss Marsden on the 15th?  Yes.  Yes.  And you are going to let us know if that's a  problem Mr. Goldie.  MR. GOLDIE:  Well, it is a problem, my lord, because of my  commitment in the Supreme Court of Canada and Mr.  Willms has to take both those witnesses.  Oh, yes, I see.  Yes.  Well, all right.  I don't  think there is anything more that I can say about it  at the moment.  I will leave those difficult matters  for counsel to struggle with.  All right 9:30.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL SATURDAY, APRIL 15, 1989  AT 9:30 A.M.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Laara Yardley, Official Reporter,  United Reporting Service Ltd.  MR.  THE  GRANT:  COURT:  THE COURT:


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