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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-02-21] British Columbia. Supreme Court Feb 21, 1989

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 11?  Submission by Mr. Willms  1 Vancouver, B.C.  2 February 21, 1989  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 10:00 a.m.)  5  6 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  7 Columbia, Vancouver, this Tuesday, February 21, 1989,  8 the matter of Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen  9 at bar, my lord.  10 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant.  11 MR. GRANT:  Yes, my lord.  Mr. Willms indicated that he had an  12 objection before I started, so --  13 THE COURT:  Okay.  Mr. Willms.  14 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, in August of this year — and I'm handing  15 up Mr. Rush's letter -- we were advised -- and this is  16 in the first paragraph of Mr. Rush's letter, that  17 the -- Dr. Daly's written statement is tendered to us  18 pursuant to Section 11 of the Evidence Act.  And  19 yesterday, my friend in the afternoon, I think what he  20 did was reserved -- or purported to reserve a number  21 to mark Dr. Daly's report as an exhibit.  And as I  22 understand what he may be seeking to do, is leading  23 viva voce evidence of Dr. Daly and then in addition,  24 marking Dr. Daly's report.  And if that's what my  25 friend intends to do then I object, and I object for  26 this reason, my lord, and it arises out of Pederson  27 v. Degelder, a decision of Mr. Justice Bouck.  It was  28 handed to your lordship in that book of authorities.  29 There is no need to refer to it right now, but in that  30 decision, Mr. Justice Bouck -- oh well, it's tab 15.  31 I see that headnote is a synopsis, my lord, of what  32 his lordship ruled there in respect of the differences  33 between Section 10 of the Evidence Act and Section 11,  34 and that is that if you are going to lead an expert  35 through a report where the report is tendered under  36 Section 10, you tender the report, the expert is asked  37 to explain ambiguities in the report, then there is  38 whatever argument there may be on the admissibility of  39 the report, and then cross-examination begins after  40 that.  41 The alternative method of proceeding is to tender  42 a statement under Section 11 of the facts upon which  43 the expert relies and what his opinion is and then  44 that evidence is led viva voce, there is no report  45 filed.  And that method of proceeding, as I understand  46 it, my lord, is to put to the witness assumed facts,  47 facts that the witness actually knows, and they can be 11889  Submission by Mr. Willms  1 weighed and tested against the notice that has been  2 given.  And after that has happened, the witness can  3 be asked his opinion, that can be weighed against the  4 notice that has been given, any objections that need  5 to be taken are taken at that time, and then the  6 evidence proceeds.  But there is no marking of the  7 report.  8 In this case, my lord, Dr. Daly's report  9 emcompasses 750 pages.  It is hard to conceive of what  10 else Dr. Daly could say in the stand in addition to  11 what he said in that report to highlight it, clear up  12 ambiguities.  That document is comprehensive.  And if  13 my friend is seeking to file that report as an  14 exhibit, then it's my submission that he should tender  15 it now and the objections to the report can be made  16 now.  And to the extent that the report is admissible  17 then we can proceed with Dr. Daly dealing with the  18 ambiguities.  19 And I understand fully, my lord, that this is an  20 exceptional case and that there may be more leeway  21 given to an expert to explain ambiguities because of  22 the exceptional nature of the case.  But this report  23 is exceptional to the Nth degree.  It is 750 pages  24 long and I can't see what the witness in one week can  25 do to add to 750 pages.  26 So it is my submission that my friend should make  27 up his mind; is he leading the witness viva voce  28 Section 11 in the appropriate manner of leading  29 opinion evidence viva voce, or is he seeking to tender  30 the report?  And if he is, then we can deal with it on  31 that basis .  32 Those are the submissions that I have, my lord.  33 THE COURT:  Well, to answer your rhetorical question, "What more  34 can he say," the answer is that he can make himself  35 understood, possibly.  That's not something within his  36 control, that's -- that's a frailty of the mind with  37 which he has to work.  38 MR. WILLMS:  And I agree, my lord, and that's why I suggest that  39 there be more in this exceptional case.  I don't  40 suggest that the rigours of Pederson v. Degelder  41 should be adhered to as Mr. Justice Bouck described  42 them, that there should be more there.  43 THE COURT:  Even there he said relief from strict compliance  44 with Section 11 may be granted by the court when an  45 expert is called to testify.  46 MR. WILLMS:  That's under Section 11.  And my lord —  47 THE COURT:  I am under Section 11.  The letter says Section 11. 11890  Submisson by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 MR. WILLMS:  But that doesn't anticipate the filing of the  2 report.  There would be no report filed at the end of  3 the day, there would just be the evidence of Dr. Daly.  4 THE COURT:  Yes.  Miss Koenigsberg, do you have a submission to  5 make?  6 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Well in my submission, Mr. Willms' submission  7 has something to recommend it, and that is that it  8 would be helpful when facing a report of this size to  9 have some basic understanding of the structure under  10 which we are going to operate, and so to the extent of  11 trying to determine at what point objections as to  12 admissibility are going to be taken, it would help if  13 we did know which direction we were going.  14 THE COURT:  Is there any doubt about that?  Mr. Grant has asked  15 that a number be reserved for it, he is going -- he  16 has tendered the report and it's -- it hasn't been  17 marked simply because there is an objection that Mr.  18 Willms made which I think you supported, Miss  19 Koenigsberg, that even then Mr. Willms said that I  20 should hear the evidence before I ruled.  But Mr.  21 Grant -- there is no doubt Mr. Grant is tendering the  22 report.  23 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes, my lord.  However, if the object of the  24 exercise is to tender the report holus-bolus in this  25 way, there very -- there is a very large amount in  26 this report.  It's not possible that Mr. Grant will  27 attempt to actually go through it even page by page in  28 a week, and it's difficult to pull out the areas that  29 fall into one category of whether it's admissible or  30 not admissible, whether it's based on personal  31 knowledge or not personal knowledge.  And it's -- we  32 certainly struggled with that in preparing for our  33 cross-examinations, in any event.  34 But the mixing up of the two methods which is, I  35 think, what we've arrived at, we sort of have some of  36 Section 10 and some of Section 11 and we sort of go  37 along in this particular -- with this particular  38 witness it just makes it -- it is that much more  39 difficult so that we are -- well, all I can say is if  40 we actually did decide, "Well, we are going to go  41 Section 11 and the report holus-bolus doesn't go in,"  42 at the end it can be used as a guide or hear whatever  43 parts survive, then I think it's a lot easier to deal  44 with the parts that are being tendered and do meet the  45 tests.  46 In a sense, my lord, I think Section 10 and  47 Section 11 assume -- or put the burden on the person 11891  Submisson by Ms. Koenigsberg  Ruling by the Court  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  tendering the evidence who should have the best idea  of what that evidence is, as to what categories it  does fall in so that they do have to state what is  assumed, what is not assumed, what is personal  knowledge and what isn't.  Now, in this case, I think  your lordship has already heard a little bit and  you'll hear more.  It's not particularly discernible  from the report itself.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  One of the great advantages of English law, it  does not pretend to be logical.  And I think, having  said that, I am comforted in the belief I have that  the best course to follow in this case is the one that  Mr. Grant has embarked upon, which is to tender the  report, to call the witness to give a modicum of  evidence to explain or expand upon it or make it  understandable, and he has confined himself within  reasonable distance of efficacy and dispatch to one  week of explanation and enlargement.  And while that  does not comply strictly with Pederson v. Degelder, I  am also comforted by the fact that while that case  describes an optimal situation, it is not slavishly  followed by most of the judges of this court, except  when they have a situation that clearly calls out for  some judicial fierceness, and I do not think we are at  that point in this case.  I think that the course of  the trial has been to allow Mr. Grant to proceed this  way and I think he should be allowed to continue.  I  have every sympathy and an understanding of what Mr.  Willms and Miss Koenigsberg are saying, but I think  the question is to allow the matter to proceed as it  is .  Thank you, my lord.  I would like to call Dr. Daly to the stand.  Having said what I said, Mr. Grant, doesn't mean  that you have to take up the whole week, if you can  plan not to.  You are not obliged to do that.  I appreciate that, my lord.  I think your experience  with Miss Mandell was that she took only one and a  quarter days with Dr. Kari and it was estimated two  and a half days early on.  So as far as plaintiffs'  counsel are concerned, we are not trying to expand to  the time allotted, although I may have to take up your  offer of an evening session this week.  I'm not  certain.  I'll advise you tomorrow.  THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  THE REGISTRAR:  I caution the witness, you are still under oath.  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT 11892  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 RICHARD DALY:  Previously sworn  2  3 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT CONT'D:  4 Q   My lord, I think that -- I did reconsider in light of  5 some of the -- a question you raised near the end of  6 the day as to where I was going, is that I was going  7 to flow from -- going to continue with the evidence of  8 Dr. Daly in the area that he was dealing with, but I  9 was going to tie it to some specific comments in the  10 report so that it is more integrated than in these  11 early comments.  And the reason I say that is because  12 the comment that leads into this first area actually  13 is in the first chapter, and I would like to refer you  14 to volume 1, Dr. Daly, at page 4 of your report.  15 Now, -- and I refer you to the bottom of that  16 page, the fifth line from the bottom -- fourth, I  17 should say, where it states -- or you state:  18  19 "Societies —"  20  21 I'm sorry, I'll start at the beginning of the  22 paragraph:  23  24 "It is important to stress at the outset  25 that the nature of the institutions which support  26 and articulate the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  27 economy are quite different in quality from the  28 institutions of the main Canadian society.  29 Societies such as those of the Gitksan and  30 Wet'suwet'en do not have institutions which can be  31 viewed as uniquely economic; nor do they have  32 institutions which are uniquely political;  33 spiritual or jural."  34  35 And is that your opinion?  36 A   Yes, it is.  37 Q   Now, in light of your discussion yesterday where you  38 were explaining to the court about aspects of tribal  39 society, can you -- does that connect to this opinion  40 A   Yes, it does.  41 Q   Can you explain?  42 A   In a kinship society, like the two societies under  43 discussion here, the playing out of institutional  44 functions in the society -- which in our world are  45 delegated to unique processes and institutions -- are  46 carried out through the same set of social relations,  47 through the kinship groupings, that's basically what  9 11893  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 I'm saying.  So the quality of the social relations  2 existing in the society are what some anthropologists  3 call a multiplex as opposed to a uniplex relationship.  4 So something which is economic is -- also has  5 overtones of the political and the family involved  6 with it.  So one set of relationships is used in  7 different contexts to emphasize economic matters,  8 family kinship matters, spiritual matters and so on.  9 Q   And is this concept with respect to the Gitksan and  10 Wet'suwet'en expanded later in your report?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   In the different sections?  13 THE COURT:  I'm not sure I understand you.  Which one do you say  14 is multiplex and which one is uniplex?  15 THE WITNESS:  The kinship societies such as the Gitksan-  16 Wet'suwet'en.  17 THE COURT:  Is which one?  18 THE WITNESS:  Is the multiplex social relations.  There are  19 elements of the same thing in our society, but the  20 dominant feel is that when you are dealing in the  21 economy you are dealing in economic matters, and one's  22 spiritual component doesn't enter into it directly or  23 knowing who you are related to.  24 THE COURT:  I'm being obtuse, I'm sure, but I would have thought  25 that if you had a kinship society which looked after  26 all the institutions, that that would be the uniplex  27 society or uniplex type of institutional arrangement.  28 Whereas a typical western society which has many  29 institutions would -- to which functions are assigned,  30 that would be a multiplex society?  31 THE WITNESS:  The institution is uniplex, but the —  32 THE COURT:  Functions are multiplex?  33 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  34 THE COURT:  You think you've got it right and I've got it wrong,  35 do you?  36 THE WITNESS:  I think so.  37 THE COURT:  That makes sense to me, just as a matter of  38 description.  I have -- I understand the concept, it's  39 the label you are putting on it that confuses me.  4 0 MR. GRANT:  41 Q   Probably you could -- maybe you can turn to the next  42 page, page 5, which of course flows out of this, and  43 maybe this -- this may assist his lordship and  44 yourself in dealing with this.  45 You talk there about:  46  47 "In the Canadian society, function-specific 11894  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 institutions abound - there are specific bodies  2 for dealing with marital, economic, welfare,  3 political, spiritual and other affairs.  This is  4 not so in the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en social  5 systems.  In these systems we find institutions  6 which deal simultaneously with many aspects of  7 social life.  The system of matrilineal House  8 groupings is one such institution.  The House is  9 family-oriented; it is economic and political; it  10 deals with the socialization of children, with  11 social welfare, with the storage of information,  12 and so on.  The feast, no less than the House  13 grouping, is an institution of many facets."  14  15 Now, in light of that paragraph, can you explain  16 or clarify for his lordship what you mean by uniplex  17 and multiplex systems?  18 A   I'm afraid I'm a bit lost.  19 THE COURT:  Well, you have here:  20  21 "The house is family-oriented; it is economic and  22 political; it deals with the socialization of  23 children, with social welfare, with the storage of  24 information."  25  26 So you say that that house institution has multiple  27 functions?  28 THE WITNESS:  It has multiple functions.  29 THE COURT:  And is therefore a multiplex?  30 THE WITNESS:  And consequently, the social relations between the  31 house groupings are what I would call multiplex  32 relationships because they denote a number of things  33 which in our terminology are relegated to specific  34 categories.  35 THE COURT:  Whereas our institutions in western civilization,  36 like the -- well, like the legal-judicial system is a  37 uniplex institution because it has generically one  38 function?  39 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  And whereas in the jural situation, the  40 materials that are relevant to making the decision are  41 restricted to that section of concern that the legal  42 body of knowledge in a tribal society, who you are  43 related to is very important, the ongoing political  44 process, the cultural assumptions, the spiritual life  45 of the people.  4 6 THE COURT:  I think I understand.  Thank you.  4 7 MR. GRANT: 11895  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   That's important for the -- when you consider jural  2 processes within the tribal situation?  3 A   That's right.  One of my professors, Gluckman, in  4 Manchester wrote a book on this subject called The  5 Barotse Jurisprudence where he discusses what is of  6 relevance in evidence in the traditional court system  7 of the chiefs and the king and in that part of Africa.  8 Q   Okay.  Now you go on in page 5 to describe an example  9 of what you say is:  10  11 "Perhaps an example will show the degree of  12 functional specificity in Canadian society  13 compared to the functional generality of the  14 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en."  15  16 And you refer to the hunting example:  17  18 "When most urban-dwelling Canadians go hunting in  19 the autumn they are engaging mainly in a  20 recreational pursuit which, if their technical  21 expertise and luck are sufficient, will result in  22 a recreational outing and an exotic foodstuff to  23 share with family and friends.  But when a Gitksan  24 or Wet'suwet'en goes hunting he is engaging in a  25 many-facetted economic production activity.  This  26 person is socially obliged to distribute within  27 the local community and kinship circle any meat  28 which he obtains while hunting.  The giving of  29 meat articulates and reinforces the local  30 kin-based social relations."  31  32 A   That's correct.  33 Q   Okay.  And that exemplifies the distinction between  34 these two types of societies.  Did you see examples of  35 that latter comment -- observe examples of that latter  36 comment of distribution by a hunter among the Gitksan  37 or Wet'suwet'en?  38 A   Yes.  And I mentioned an example yesterday.  39 Q   Thank you.  I believe you were talking about Robert  40 Jackson?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   Okay.  43 Now, why do you and other anthropologists  44 categorize or group societies in this way, such as  45 you've said, tribal groupings, and I think you  46 referred to chiefdoms in the band, and what is the  47 purpose in that for anthropologists? 11896  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   It's an attempt to try to bring some comprehension and  2 order to a field of great diversity and great disorder  3 when you first approach it.  When you go into a field  4 to study a society and its system of meaning, its  5 culture, you don't just -- you don't go simply to  6 experience it willy-nilly, you want an orientation,  7 you are going to categorize and try to find a  8 prototype into which this society that you are  9 studying will fit.  It may not fit well, and if it  10 doesn't then that raises interesting questions of the  11 historical specificity or what factors are involved  12 that make it unique.  But it assists in the  13 understanding and the comparative knowledge about the  14 rich treasury of human societies in their cultures.  15 Q   Now, I would like to refer you to the blue book for a  16 moment, with respect to this topic.  And that is tab  17 3A.  This is an excerpt from Marshall Sahlins' book,  18 Tribesmen, and can you just advise his lordship who  19 Marshall Sahlins is or was?  20 A  Marshall Sahlins is a reputable American  21 anthropologist, he has written and studied extensively  22 in Polynesia, Melanesia, and this is a textbook, in a  23 sense, Tribesmen, which is very commonly used to  24 delineate what some of the features and parameters of  25 tribal societies are.  26 Q   I would like to refer you to page 39 of that reference  27 and it's under a heading "Hunting, Fishing, and  28 Gathering Tribes".  It states:  29  30 "The western fringe of North America from  31 California to southern Alaska was occupied in  32 aboriginal times by tribes without agriculture or  33 husbandry.  The common --"  34  35 I'll skip the next sentence about New Guinea.  36  37 "The combination of tribal structure and hunting-  38 fishing-gathering production is, however,  39 exceptional.  It usually depends on the existence  40 of one or two surpassingly abundant wild foods --  41 e.g., fish (especially salmon) in the American  42 Northwest, acorns in California, sago in New  43 Guinea -- which when taken in their season afford  44 something like an agricultural harvest.  It might  45 be said of these people that they practice a  46 'natural agriculture'."  47 11897  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Now, do you agree with that comment to the extent  2 that it applies to the northwest coast culture?  3 A   Yes, I do.  It's commonly accepted in anthropology  4 that this -- in this region that we are concerned  5 with, the northern -- northwest coast, due to the  6 regular runs of salmon, people harvest their way of  7 life much like agricultural societies do, even though  8 there is no appreciable domestication of animals or  9 plants.  The sort of social structure which I outlined  10 is consistent with neolithic production, has prevailed  11 in this region.  12 Q   And are tribes more commonly agricultural groups?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Okay.  Now you also -- I would like to go to the  15 bottom of that page.  It states:  16  17 "Hunting-gathering tribes --"  18  19 And this would be applied to the Gitksan and  20 Wet'suwet'en as he has described; is that right?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q  23 "-- may also enjoy as much material comfort as the  24 run of 'neolithic' tribesmen."  25  26 And neolithic tribesmen -- what's he referring to  27 there?  28 A   He is referring to those tribes that relied on ground  29 and polished stone tool technology and were marked by  30 a sedentary population.  31 Q   And commonly were agriculturalists?  32 A   Commonly agriculturalists practising a simple form of  33 agriculture called slash and burn or swidden.  34 Q   Okay.  Then he goes on to say:  35  36 "Many of the best wood-carvers of the primitive  37 world are tribal hunters and gatherers, such as  38 the Asmat of New Guinea and the Northwest Coast  39 Indians."  40  41 Do you agree and adopt those two statements?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   I would like to go to the next page where he basically  44 focuses on some of the other components of the tribal  45 hunter-gatherers.  He states that:  46  47 " Population —" 1189?  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 At the top of page 40, my lord.  2  3 "Population densities of tribal hunter-  4 gatherers likewise measure up to neolithc  5 standards.  The aboriginal population density of  6 California was about as high as any region north  7 of Mexico, including agricultural regions.  8 Northwest Coast Indians were not far behind."  9  10 Do you agree with his comments there with respect to  11 the Northwest Coast Indians and the Gitksan and  12 Wet'suwet'en?  13 A   Yes, I do.  14 Q   Goes on to state, two paragraphs down:  15  16 "The natural food supplies available to  17 local groups of hunting-gathering tribes are  18 subject to much seasonal and annual variation."  19  20 Would that comment apply to the Gitksan and to the  21 Wet'suwet'en?  22 A   I'm just thinking on the population densities.  23 Q   I'm sorry?  24 A   It -- perhaps we can explain this later when we are  25 discussing the finer points of the -- so I can qualify  26 the densities of population.  It certainly applies  27 with the Gitksan and it applies to the Wet'suwet'en by  28 nature of the way they combine their economy and use  29 their land.  At the same time, there is a difference  30 between the two of them in terms of population  31 density.  32 Q   Well, maybe you should explain that, what you want to  33 say now when you have -- in terms of qualifying this  34 with respect to the Wet'suwet'en?  35 A  Well, the Wet'suwet'en people are Athabaskan in their  36 language and culture, and most of the Athabaskans are  37 classified as band societies.  38 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, I missed something.  Who did you say were  39 Athabaskan?  40 THE WITNESS:  Wet'suwet'en.  41 THE COURT:  You didn't include the Gitksan in that?  42 THE WITNESS:  No.  43 THE COURT:  No.  All right, thank you.  4 4    MR. GRANT:  45 Q   Most Athabaskans are band societies?  46 A   They are band societies and the structure of the  47 kinship groupings is such that they move considerably 11899  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 over -- the Northern Athabaskans over their  2 territories, gathering together in larger groups at  3 certain seasons.  But with the possibility of regular  4 salmon runs, this has skewed the ability of the  5 Wet'suwet'en to expand to a greater extent than most  6 of the -- of their Athabaskan neighbours to the east.  7 And the same thing prevails, as far as my reading  8 informs me, among the Tahltan and the Athabaskan-  9 speaking peoples adjacent to the coast farther north.  10 Q   Are the Tahltans Athabaskan speaking?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Yes, okay.  But the question of whether -- you say  13 most Athabaskan groups are classified as band  14 societies.  Are the Wet'suwet'en classified as band  15 society or tribal society?  16 A   They exhibit many of the features of a tribe.  It's a  17 hazy zone, but they -- they are much more like the  18 Gitksan in their structure than they are like their  19 surrounding Athabaskan neighbours.  20 Q   Okay.  21 A   It's a matter of degree.  22 Q   Now, I just want to go on to the next comment that I  23 would like to refer you to from Marshall Sahlins, and  24 he states :  25  26 "The natural food supplies --"  27  28 This isn't the one immediately underneath, my lord.  29  30 "The natural food supplies available to  31 local groups of hunting-gathering tribes are  32 subject to much seasonal and annual  33 variation."  34  35 In your opinion, does that statement apply to the  36 Gitksan and to the Wet'suwet'en?  37 A   Yes, it does.  38 Q   Okay?  39 A  And it's reflected in the concern for having -- for  40 storing up against a rainy day or for the exigencies  41 of there being a shortage of fish or a shortage of  42 game or a shortage of berries in the areas, and it's  43 reflected in the oral tradition to --  44 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, that question, without a definition of  45 food supplies, is incomprehensible.  I mean, do food  46 supplies include what the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  47 presently eat today, or is the witness talking about 11900  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  THE COURT  7  8  MR. GRANT  9  10  THE COURT  11  MR. GRANT  12  Q  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  45  Q  46  47  something that they ate 200 years ago, or is the  witness talking about something else?  I mean, to ask  him to adopt that statement without any underlying  factual definition of what it means, in my submission,  is objectionable and I object.  :  It is unclear what the witness means by adopting the  statement, isn't it, Mr. Grant?  :  Yes.  I appreciate my friend raising the concern now  and I'll deal with it.  :  All right.  Can you explain when you adopt that statement, what  you would mean?  In other words, taking this as though  it was your statement -- and I know maybe you would  word it differently -- what -- when you say that this  statement would apply to the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en,  what do you mean by the natural food supplies being --  which are subject to seasonal and annual variation,  and also a time context, when you are talking about?  Well, if we want to talk about the present day, it's  those species which are still extremely highly valued  in the diet and in the social relations of the  society.  Such as?  Especially beaver and moose and the berries on the  land.  What about the fish?  Of course the fish.  Every family doesn't feel a day  has been lived properly unless they have their fish.  Now, of course, today -- and you described later in  your report about -- about diet and people use  supermarket food among the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en?  Oh yes.  And this statement wouldn't apply to that?  No.  Okay.  I'm referring to the subsistence products which  occupied most of the spectrum -- or the whole spectrum  of the aboriginal economy.  Yes?  Which are still highly valued and sought after today  by virtually -- members of virtually every house  group, even though the bulk of the diet may not be  from those products today.  Now, a few lines down it states:  "Along the Northwest Coast, chieftains of 'noble' 11901  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 birth were influential in the several lineages  2 ('houses') and villages.  But none could  3 continuously maintain supremacy over a tribal  4 region, any more than the salmon would run in  5 abundance year in and year out in the streams  6 claimed by any one chief."  7  8 With respect to the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en, do  9 you -- does that statement apply to them?  10 MR. WILLMS:  I object, my lord.  There are a whole series of  11 terms in there that are absolutely incomprehensible  12 without definition.  What does "noble birth" mean,  13 what does "lineage" mean, what does "supremacy" mean,  14 what does "a tribal region" mean?  Now this witness  15 has got a 700 page report.  We don't need Marshall  16 Sahlins and have the witness go through and say does  17 he agree with what this person observed generally.  If  18 my friend has got some specific questions related to  19 the report dealing with these issues, in my  20 submission, he should get to them.  21 MR. GRANT:  My lord — I'm sorry.  22 THE COURT:  I suppose I should hear from Miss Koenigsberg.  23 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Well again, I have to agree with Mr. Willms.  24 I don't know what these things mean and it's nearly  25 impossible to deal with it at this level.  It  26 essentially becomes meaningless without definition.  27 And, of course, what this witness means by that is  28 what we are interested in, I assume.  29 THE COURT:  Well, I guess I have to say, Mr. Grant, as I said a  30 moment ago, that it could be -- your question doesn't  31 make it clear -- or the answer, at least, doesn't  32 clearly indicate what the witness is saying or what he  33 is adopting.  I have heard some evidence about noble  34 birth but not much.  I guess what the several lineages  35 means is the houses.  36 MR. GRANT:  Well, my lord, my friend in -- with respect, I think  37 is jumping the gun here because the point is that I'm  38 asking -- if the witness doesn't agree with the  39 statement, I don't want to pursue it further.  On the  40 assumption that the witness will agree with the  41 statement, I want him to explain it, what he means by  42 it.  But I take the position that if this witness is  43 adopting a statement made by another person renowned  44 in the field with respect to the Gitksan and  45 Wet'suwet'en, which does, I agree, include many  46 different concepts in a very short statement, and  47 this -- I'm dealing here now with the question of the 11902  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  tribe and the band and aspects of tribal society.  Because what the witness has explained is that we are  dealing with a -- and Sahlins as well states that the  Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en are in a way an anomaly  like the California group and like the New Guinea  group, that they are a tribal-hunter-gatherer group.  It's not common.  And there is some concepts here that  I -- that of course I would ask the witness what is  meant by that if he agrees with the statement, I don't  want to leave it just as it is.  And it has a full  bearing on his report, I've tied it to those early  comments, but I'm not -- but I feel that by going  through this he can adopt certain of these statements  and that's --  THE COURT:  Well, in view of your assurance that you are going  to ask the witness to explain himself, having said  that he adopts the statement, I think you should be  allowed to proceed.  I think we are going to have a  lot of trouble in this area if we are going to have a  lot of examples of this.  MR. GRANT:  No.  This is basically because the — from a  review -- I've come to a conclusion from a review of  his report that it would be easier to deal with this  tribal-band concept here, then he'll go into other  aspects.  But to understand certain aspects or  features of the tribe with respect to the Gitksan and  Wet'suwet'en.  All right.  You may proceed.  Thank you, my lord  Does that statement, in your opinion, apply to  the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en, those two sentences that  I read?  Yes.  These are general features of hunting and  gathering tribes which, in a general sense, fit the  Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en, all of these features on  this page.  Q   Okay.  What is meant -- to the extent that you adopt  those statements as applying to the Gitksan and  Wet'suwet'en, to whom would you refer with respect to  the statements "chieftains of 'noble' birth," and  it's -- "were influential in the several lineages,"  and the two concepts of noble birth and several  lineages?  A  What he is saying here is that no leader by the  nature -- by the variable nature of the resources and  the necessity of the people to leave their settled  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  Q  A 11903  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 villages at certain seasons and pursue these  2 resources, and the changes of climate and local  3 micro-econ -- micro-environment and so on, no leader  4 is able to reach a position of permanent supremacy or  5 authority over all the others, such as you find in a  6 kingdom -- or a chiefdom society or a kingdom.  That's  7 the -- perhaps it's a bit out of context because there  8 is only a couple of pages from Sahlins, but that's --  9 that whole discussion about under what conditions do  10 tribal societies develop into something more  11 hierarchical.  12 So it's a general -- a general feature of the  13 hunting-gathering tribes.  They don't develop into an  14 elaborate hierarchy with one overlord chief unless  15 something unusual happens to the historical conditions  16 they are operating in.  17 Q   Okay.  Now, at the bottom of that page, the paragraph  18 starting:  19  20 "Thus despite the dense population it may  21 support, food-collecting by its inherent  22 insecurities unhinges a tribal structure.  It  23 continuously disturbs political codification both  24 of the local community and the regional congeries  25 of communities.  Local groups tend to be less  26 coherent and less solidary than in agricultural  27 settings, where specific resources exploited over  28 long periods give anchorage to strong corporate  2 9 formations."  30  31 Can you explain that comment and explain it if it  32 applies to the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en?  33 A  Well, what I see applying to the Gitksan and  34 Wet'suwet'en from this statement is that the nature of  35 the chase, so to speak, the use of the land and going  36 out onto the territories, is such that it precludes  37 the degree of sedentary local existence which allows  38 for considerable specialization of economic activity,  39 and the factors that go to building a hierarchical  40 chiefdom.  The ecological restraints are such that  41 this doesn't happen and there is a lot of mediation  42 and interplay between local groups rather than one of  43 those local groups coming to ascendancy over all of  44 the others.  45 Q   Now, I would like to refer you -- I would like to go  46 back to your report.  You can put that blue book aside  47 for now.  I would like to refer you to page 38 of your 11904  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 report.  2 This section of evidence, my lord, I'm going to  3 deal with certain specifics from his -- from Dr.  4 Daly's report dealing with the question of oral  5 history with specific respect, of course, to the  6 Gitksan and to the Wet'suwet'en.  But first of all, I  7 would like to -- page 39 is a -- I would like to quote  8 you that first paragraph on page 39 of your report:  9  10 "In this report I have tried to describe the  11 nature of the economy as the first Europeans found  12 it.  From that base-line I have examined changes  13 associated with the European economy - both those  14 that occurred subsequently and those which  15 occurred prior to the actual arrival of Europeans  16 in the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en territories.  17 Against this time frame I have examined the  18 assertions of informants that land-based economic  19 pursuits and reciprocal kinship distribution of  20 goods and services are today, in their essence, a  21 continuation of a very old way of material life  22 and social intercourse.  In this task I have  23 studied archaeological, ethnological and other  24 documents pertaining to the Gitksan, the  25 Wet'suwet'en, and their neighbours.  I have also  26 studied the oral tradition to ascertain the  27 outlines of the economy in earlier times."  28  29 Is that a fair summary of what you engaged in, in  30 this work?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And in the preparation of this report?  33 A   Yes, it is.  34 Q   Okay.  Now at page 42 and 43, I would like to refer  35 you to where you first -- well, not first, but where  36 you deal with the oral history.  It starts, that last  37 paragraph:  38  39 "Europeans have been latecomers to America.  40 They possess no direct knowledge of Native  41 institutions as they existed through the centuries  42 prior to their own arrival on the continent.  In  43 order to gain a clearer understanding of  44 pre-contact societies researchers are forced to  45 study the statements and explanations of the  46 informant peoples, to treat these statements as a  47 form of historical record, however unorthodox 11905  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 these statements might appear from the perspective  2 of the Western tradition of scholarship.  This  3 oral history and the life experience which informs  4 it can be supplemented by data from other oral  5 cultures which possess comparable economies, and  6 by reference to other methods of dating such as  7 archaeology and linguistics."  8  9 Now then, you state:  10  11 "Through my study of the oral histories and  12 archaeological reports I have found no evidence  13 which suggests that general features of the  14 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en economy - its system of  15 matrilineally owned territories, its seasonal  16 round, its feasting exchanges, and its reliance  17 upon an annual seasonal round of subsistence goods  18 obtainable by means of hunting, trapping and  19 fishing - did not exist prior to the proto-contact  20 period."  21  22 And then you refer -- go on to refer to the  23 archaeological record.  24 Is that -- that is your -- that last statement is  25 your opinion with respect to the economy?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And you go on in the report to amplify why you have  28 concluded that opinion, through the body of the  29 report?  3 0 A   I do.  31 Q   And -- now, I would like to ask you with respect to  32 your reliance on the oral history, which you refer to  33 at page 42, and the quote I said -- and also at the  34 bottom of page 43 that you have and you state you  35 illustrate how you have:  36  37 "...sought to verify historical events and social  38 institutions in relation to Gitksan and  39 Wet'suwet'en history, first, in the proto-contact  40 and early contact periods, and second, in the  41 pre-contact period."  42  43 Now, did you refer to the oral history and then  44 use attempts to verify it and can you --  45 A   Yes, I did.  46 MR. WILLMS:  My lord —  47 MR. GRANT:  Can you explain — 11906  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 MR. WILLMS:  -- there are oral histories and oral histories.  2 And if my friend is going to put a question like that  3 he should say what he is talking about, and I object  4 to that.  What oral histories?  5 MR. GRANT:  6 Q   Thank you, Mr. Willms.  What oral histories did you  7 refer to?  8 A   The adaawk of the Gitksan and the Kungax of the  9 Wet'suwet'en.  10 Q   All right.  And what source did you go to for the  11 adaawk of the Gitksan -- or the sources, if there was  12 more than one?  13 A   The collections of the Barbeau-Beynon material, Boas'  14 Tsimshian Myths, Jenness' Ethnography of the  15 Wet'suwet'en, and certain amount of -- some references  16 from Maurice.  17 Q   Did you go to live informants?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Okay.  20 A   Some of the live informants, I used their commission  21 evidence.  22 Q   Okay.  Now, can you explain how you verified adaawk or  23 Kungax by an example in the proto -- of the proto-  24 contact or post-contact period?  25 A  Well, this is easier than the earlier -- the pre-  26 contact period, because there are references usually  27 to things which have been perhaps introduced by the  28 European culture.  29 Q   Yes?  30 A  And I think there is -- I've given an example in here  31 of the -- one of the Raven-Frog adaawk, number 83.  32 Q   It's referred to at the top of page 45, yes.  33 A  And in the course of that account of relationships of  34 animosity between the house group who are telling the  35 adaawk and the northern peoples, there are references  36 to guns, there is a reference to the trader's dog,  37 which was later incorporated into the crest system of  38 both the Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en.  And there is  39 mention or discussion about the halayt power of the  40 shaman from the northern peoples who had a special  41 kind of power they hadn't seen before.  He frothed at  42 the mouth, sort of a green slime came out of his  43 mouth, and it seems to me that's one of the symptoms  44 of cholera.  So that is a possible alternate  45 interpretation from that given by the people.  46 So there are these ways of connecting up with our  47 culture that -- things that have been incorporated 11907  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  into the oral tradition.  Q And did you look at, then, the ethnohistorical records  of that?  A   Yes.  And some -- some of these same events were  described to early ethnographers.  And I think I cited  in here Jenness' work with the -- with the Sekeni, and  there is a lady who was part of a peace settlement  from this general area of time of animosities, who  returned after her husband died, she was going to  return to her family in Kispiox but she had been  exchanged -- part of the peace agreement was to  exchange members of the two nations and marry them to  cement the peace and build a relationship.  Q   And did you also refer to the commission evidence of  Thomas Wright, David Gunanoot and Fred Johnson with  reference to that?  A Yes. They all refer to enmities with northern peoples  where there is -- again, there is an existence of guns  or some item from the European world.  Q   Okay.  A   Just throws it into a specific general area of time.  Q   Okay.  I would like to go to page 48 of your report.  And after you have given this explanation in more  detail in your report than you've just summarized, you  say about that one example, you state:  "This then, is the sort of verification  which ethnohistory is able to utilize --"  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  Q  Sorry, page 48?  Page 48, my lord, the first full paragraph.  Sorry.  Yes, thank you.  "This then, is the sort of verification  which ethnohistory is able to utilize to establish  events and aspects of social structure of the  early contact and proto-contact periods.  The task  of gaining an informed understanding of the  historical trajectories and social structure of  earlier, pre-contact times is not as clearcut  however."  Now first of all, that verification is what  you've just described; is that right?  A   That's correct, yes.  Q   And such understanding is usually limited to -- then 1190?  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 you talk about the pre-contact time.  2 "Such understanding is usually limited to  3 hypotheses informed by inferences drawn from  4 (one) the people's oral history, (two)  5 archaeological data, (three) comparable kinship  6 societies, and (four) the time sequencing which  7 can be deduced from the natural world - from  8 climate fluctuation; from ecological changes  9 recorded in pollen stratification in bogs and  10 lakes; from datable avalanches, volcanic  11 eruptions, and so on."  12  13 Now, is that -- does that summarize your  14 methodology in terms of analysing adaawk relating to  15 pre-contact times?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Okay.  Now on page 49, and I'm -- this still deals  18 with this matter -- area of oral history, my lord.  19 You utilized an opinion that you formed about the  20 trade changes, and I'll use that as an example for how  21 you looked at pre-contact oral history.  You say  22 half-way down that first -- that middle paragraph:  23  24 "Nevertheless, it is my opinion that the increase  25 of trading possibilities and the availability of  26 iron tools during the proto-contact period had not  27 radically changed the form of the economy in the  28 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en areas."  29  30 And that is your opinion?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And you go on to explain that later in the body of the  33 report --  34 A   I do.  35 Q   -- under the trades -- I think a section on trade?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And then you say:  38  39 "In my opinion --"  40  41 THE COURT:  Excuse me, Mr. Grant.  What do you say the contact  42 period and therefore the proto-contact period was?  43 THE WITNESS:  The contact period is the period when the  44 aboriginal populations first came face-to-face with  45 Europeans or with foreigners from another continent.  46 The proto-contact period is the period in which the  47 effects of the European presence and trade on the 11909  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  continent was felt among the people of this region in  the previous one or 200 years.  The effects being  the -- generally, the trade goods and effects of  disease and so on.  Do you have a date for those things?  With respect to the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en?  Yes.  Do you have a date?  Well, the early nineteenth century is the contact  period.  COURT:  Early nineteenth?  WITNESS:  Yes.  And the proto-contact period is variously  described -- probably back to around 1700.  COURT:  1700-1800 then?  WITNESS:  Yes.  COURT:  Thank you.  GRANT:  Q   And the proto-contact period, would it be different in  different parts of the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en territory?  A   It would.  But the effect, once there is an  appearance, it has a rippling effect among all the  peoples in the region generally.  It will have a  greater effect in the area which is closest to the  point of contact, such as the Russian trade had a  greater effect on the southeast and southeast Alaska,  and some of the interior band and tribes of that  region than it did, say, in Wet'suwet'en territory.  Q   You go on to state on 49 and go on to 50:  "In my opinion the fur trade conditions  changed the tempo of the economy, the quantity of  goods produced and exchanged, the size of the  feasting, the abundance of luxury goods, the scope  of crest displays by chiefly families, but it did  not develop into a socio-economic system of  centralized 'big man' authority (as  anthropologists have found both in the adjacent  nineteenth century coast and in the same time  frame, across the Pacific in New Guinea and other  parts of Melanesia)."  And that is your opinion as well?  A   Yes.  Q   And when you talk about "centralized 'big man'  authority", would you be talking about, for example,  the legaix? 11910  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yes, that's a good example.  It's a term, it's not a  2 very elegant term, but it's used to refer to the type  3 of political and economic process that's prevalent  4 even today in parts of New Guinea.  The "big man"  5 concept, which in a sense is taking the given  6 prerogatives of leadership and expanding them in  7 creative entrepreneurial fashions so that you get a  8 greater power and authority than a system would really  9 allow.  So it's a building up of your position as a  10 leader and a leader of the economy.  11 Q   But still, does it remain a kinship society?  12 A   Yes.  13 THE COURT:  How is legaix spelt again, L-E-G-A-T-E?  14 THE WITNESS:  L-E-G-A-I-X underlined.  15 THE COURT:  A-I-X, all right.  Is that any different from  16 Churchill's, what you call an-important-person term?  17 Is there anything new in this?  18 THE WITNESS:  Well, it's the scope of the society I think which  19 is different.  It's --  20 THE COURT:  Didn't Churchill write a book about this?  21 THE WITNESS:  I'm not familiar.  22 THE COURT:  I'm sure he did.  All right, thank you.  And when I  23 say Churchill wrote a book, I'm talking about post-war  24 in the late '50s, I think.  I'm sure he did.  I'll  25 find it.  I can't comment on that either, my lord.  All right.  He is not in any of the references of the  29 bibliography of this witness, that's for sure.  30 THE COURT:  Maybe he should be.  31 MR. GRANT:  32 Q   We will see.  33 Now then, you go on to explain the foundation for  34 that opinion and you list a couple of -- you list a  35 series of factors, and one is that you say:  36  37 "First of all, the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en are,  38 and their ancestors were, hinterland peoples."  39  40 And what does that -- how does that affect your  41 opinion regarding the effect of contact and  42 proto-contact on trade?  43 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, I — that looks like an opinion.  It  44 doesn't look like a fact, it looks like his opinion.  45 It -- maybe Mr. Grant can clear that up.  4 6 MR. GRANT:  47 Q   What do you mean by "hinterland peoples"?  2 6 MR. GRANT  2 7 THE COURT  2 8    MR. GRANT 11911  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   In this context I mean the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  2 people were living in the mountains and the brunt of  3 the contact came by ship along the coast, so they  4 didn't meet face-to-face with the brunt of the trading  5 era.  They were somewhat removed from it  6 geographically, although they were linked to it in  7 kinship, along lines of kinship, but it was still  8 somewhat distant from their immediate day-to-day  9 preoccupations.  10 Q   In anthropological terms, what is generally meant by  11 "hinterland peoples", or is that a term that is  12 generally used?  13 A   I'm not sure whether it is.  14 Q   Okay.  15 A   It certainly is used in some economic theories of  16 peasant societies of the metropolis and the  17 hinterland.  18 Q   Now, you go on to say that:  19  20 "According to the oral tradition, the Gitksan and  21 Wet'suwet'en — "  22  23 I'm going to the next paragraph.  24  25 "-- were engaged in networks of exchange, which  26 took the form of gift-giving and barter in  27 regional foodstuffs, furs, hides and crafts long  28 before the advent of labour-saving iron goods."  29  30 And are you here referring to the adaawk and the  31 Kungax?  32 A   I'm referring to the adaawk, I'm also referring to the  33 work of Boas and Tsimshian Myths, and the discussion  34 he has on the nature of trade and the use of regional  35 and luxury goods as exemplified in the adaawks and  36 from the items that the people of his era were  37 collecting from museums on what their origins were.  38 There is a certain amount of discussion in that volume  39 on that subject and that is elaborated later in the  40 trade chapter.  41 Q   Now then, you refer to the archaeological record, on  42 page 51, which:  43  44 "... attests to longstanding trade and social  45 exchange throughout the area, and to an equally  46 long-standing subsistence economy based upon an  47 annual cycle of fishing, berry-picking, gathering 11912  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 of plant foodstuff, hunting, trapping, and then  2 once again, fishing."  3  4 Now, in -- and you rely on -- further on there  5 you rely on Albright and Ames and Coupland and  6 MacDonald and Inglis.  Ames twice, I believe, 1981 as  7 well.  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   Now, do you refer here to finds in the material  10 culture, I gather?  11 A   Finds in the material culture.  The time depth is  12 indicated -- of trade, indicated by obsidian.  And  13 unfortunately, the things that are generally traded in  14 such societies right across Canada are not subject to  15 preservation in archaeological sites.  It's mostly  16 foodstuffs and hides and so on, so we don't have a  17 definite record of the bulk of what was exchanged.  18 Q   Okay.  19 A   But then there are -- there are substantial finds of  20 luxury items, stone and bone and so on, and a certain  21 amount of faunal material that has survived the acid  22 soils of the cost which gives some indication of what  23 was being obtained in terms of material production.  24 Q   Now then, you go on to state that:  25  26 "Fourth, there is no evidence --"  27  28 This is on 52:  29  30 "-- that the production cycle which at contact was  31 anchored to the salmon runs on the main river  32 systems during the spring, summer and fall, was  33 radically different before the era of the fur  34 trade."  35  36 Now, can you explain that statement, expand on it?  37 Let me put it this way:  The statement says:  38  39 "...there is no evidence that the production...was  40 anchored to salmon runs...was radically different  41 before the era of the fur trade."  42  43 Is there evidence that it was --  44  45 "...that the production cycle... anchored to the  46 salmon runs on the main river systems during the  47 spring, summer and fall, was --" 11913  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2 -- existed before the time of the fur trade?  3 A   Existed at contact.  The early traders in the region  4 that came in with the -- from the east, they subsisted  5 on the salmon they purchased from the Indians, in all  6 of their forts.  They complain bitterly about the lack  7 of variety in their diet, but this was an ongoing part  8 of the economy that they saw when they first arrived.  9 Q   All right.  10 A  As was the collection of beaver pelts for use in the  11 feasts, and they complain about how the feasts are  12 eating up what they would like to have as their  13 returns for the coffers of the Hudson Bay Company.  14 Q   And that's from the Hudson Bay Records you looked at?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And what about the adaawk, do they comment on this, or  17 the Kungax?  18 A  Well, there is many, many references in the adaawk to  19 the fishing.  20 Q   Okay.  And you've referred to those in that?  21 A  And there is fish bones in the archaeological sites as  22 well.  23 Q   In Exhibit 887, your listing, you've made reference or  24 you've listed where there is reference to fish?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   Now, going on to page 54, you refer to the Gitanka'at  27 area in the middle paragraph there.  You state  28 half-way down that:  29  30 "Barbeau is of the view that some of these  31 ancient migrating peoples moved on from  32 Skwoolekst'aat (Xsi gwin ixstaat), not only to  33 other locations on the Skeena, but also to  34 Wet'suwet'en country."  35  3 6 And then:  37  38 "Tenimgyet indicates that this is so as well."  39  40 That's  Art Mathews Jr..  And then you say:  41  42 "This is also the area where Kitwangak Eagle  43 people locate their ancient village.  It was this  44 village where the people of Medeek stopped during  45 the dispersal from Temlaxamid."  46  47 And you are referring there to Wii Robinson, 1962. 11914  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  THE  COURT:  7  8  MR.  GRANT:  9  THE  WITNES  10  11  THE  COURT:  12  MR.  GRANT:  13  Q  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  39  Q  40  41  MR.  WILLMS  42  THE  COURT:  43  MR.  GRANT:  44  THE  COURT:  45  MR.  GRANT:  46  Q  47  And what is that reference to?  It's -- it's a book called Men of Medeek.  Yes?  And what it is, is it's a -- quite a full explanation  or full accounting of an adaawk.  Excuse me, haven't I been told Men of Medeek was  written by someone called Wright?  I think, yeah.  S:  The author, the man who wrote it down was a  non-native living in Terrace.  Are we talking about the same book?  Yes.  The man who wrote it down -- it was the oral history  of a man whose English name was Walter Wright.  And  over a course of months, Mr. Wright went to visit Mr.  Robinson, I think it was on Sunday afternoons, and he  sat with a jug of spring water and a bowl of apples  telling the adaawk while Mr. Robinson typed it into  his typewriter, and then they went over and elaborated  it.  It went on for several months, it was a very  extensive accounting.  This was done, I understand --  it's indicated in the introduction -- because Mr.  Wright was worried that his family was not in a  condition to carry on the tradition.  He didn't want  the history to die out, so he found a white-man friend  of his who would make a -- would actually write it  down and leave it behind to show the type of detail  and the type of time scope which he felt was important  to leave to those who came after.  Was Mr. Wright a Gitksan?  He was a Tsimshian from the Kitselas Canyon just north  of Terrace.  And that's just downstream -- just outside of the  Gitksan --  But in origin he was from the same -- same village of  origin as the Gitksan.  His adaawk, the Men of Medeek,  speaks of their original settlement at Temlaxam.  Now, is that adaawk, the migration from Temlaxam,  supported by archaeological data?  :  I object, my lord.  That's for your lordship.  I think I'm with Mr. Willms on that one, Mr. Grant.  I'll withdraw, my lord.  Yes.  Now on page 60, you deal with the -- you state that in  dealing with the -- after you've canvassed these 11915  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 matters -- and I don't want to go through each of the  2 points, my lord, of course, but I -- that's the  3 previous section and this following section, I submit,  4 are quite important in terms of Dr. Daly's opinions.  5 But you state:  6  7 "These then, are the ways by which the  8 historical validation of pre-contact ownership in  9 the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en area can be  10 approached.  The final point in this discussion on  11 historical sources has to do with the fidelity and  12 trustworthiness of these oral histories."  13  14 Then you state:  15  16 "As indicated in the foregoing section, the  17 oral history of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en is an  18 important source for the reconstruction of  19 pre-contact history.  In my view Gitksan and  20 Wet'suwet'en oral history comprises useful and  21 important material for gaining an understanding of  22 pre-contact social structure, as well as  23 recounting those historical events which have been  24 deemed to be crucial to the historical identity of  25 specific kinship groups.  These events are  26 presented from the perspective of specific groups.  27 Other Houses, other clans will tell them  28 differently, and stress their own role therein.  29 The oral tradition is a worthy historical source  30 material when it is treated as a whole, a corpus  31 of linked and overlapping records of events that  32 have been reiterated down through the  33 generations."  34  35 And that is your opinion with respect to the  36 utilization and validity of the oral tradition  37 regarding the Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en?  38 A   It is.  39 Q   Can you expand on why you say that, that last  40 statement, why you concluded that:  41  42 "The oral tradition is a worthy historical  43 source material when it is treated as a whole, a  44 corpus of linked and overlapping records of events  45 that have been reiterated down through the  46 generations."  47 11916  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A  Well, the assessment is based on the -- my experience  2 with the adaawk material.  There is a large body of  3 materials everybody knows and there are many tellings  4 of similar events.  But they are all told by -- from  5 the perspective of the family that owns the history,  6 the specific history, so there are overlapping  7 commentaries on events, but there is no overview of  8 the whole system.  And it's only someone who is going  9 to approach the whole thing as one body of material  10 that can make any assessment about the validity,  11 because you have to cross-reference and cross-check so  12 many different accounts and have an understanding of  13 who is speaking when the adaawk is being told, and  14 whether the person who told the anthropologist or the  15 recorder was the legitimate spokesperson for that  16 group or not.  There are many factors that have to be  17 weighed.  18 But we have so much material for this area, and it  19 is one of the cultural regions, one of the few in  20 Canada where there is this reliance on the -- a linear  21 sense of history in the cultural framework of the  22 people that goes back, according to the people, a  23 long, long way, thousands of years they say.  24 Q   When you say, "There is this reliance on the linear  25 history," are you referring to reliance by the Gitksan  26 or by the Wet'suwet'en?  27 A   Yes, yes.  28 Q   Okay?  29 A  And what I'm referring to as "oral history" is not the  30 same as the individual reminiscences of an elder.  I'm  31 referring to that body of historical material which  32 has been selected and filtered for its significance of  33 the telling group down through the generations and  34 then it has been trained into each generation in a  35 specific way and it's performed and used in a very  36 specific way.  37 So these things -- there are various ways of  38 testing the general validity.  Of course we don't know  39 the specifics of the historic situation of 10,000  40 years ago or even a thousand years ago, but we can get  41 a general feeling and a general probability of the  42 historic -- general historical accuracy on such things  43 as migrations and -- and they use -- the use of place  44 names is very important as well.  The same place names  45 that are in existence today are recounted as stops on  46 the way in certain migrations.  47 MR. GRANT:  If we could possibly take the break, my lord? 11917  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  2 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:15 a.m.)  5  6 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  7 a true and accurate transcript of the  8 proceedings herein transcribed to the  9 best of my skill and ability.  10  11  12  13  14    15 Toni Kerekes,  16 O.R., R.P.R.  17 United Reporting Service Ltd.  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 1191?  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Proceedings  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS)  THE COURT:  Mr. Grant.  MR. GRANT:  My lord, maybe I should advise you and my friends  that if I could have the court's indulgence next  Monday I would appreciate if we could stop about ten  minutes early.  I have some personal matter at 4:15  that I —  THE COURT:  Oh, in the afternoon.  MR. GRANT:  Yes.  If we could do that?  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. GRANT:  I appreciate it.  THE COURT:  That's assuming we're on time on schedule.  MR. GRANT:  In that case, my lord, maybe we could work until  midnight tonight and then I'll be sure.  No.  Q   I'd like to refer you now, Dr. Daly, to page 62.  And you say there at the top of page 62;  "The adaawks and the kungax say who the  teller is, why he has a right to speak and  to live and interact in the community and  hold land and fishing sites.  For the  Wet'suwet'en the kungax explains the chief's  attachment to the area where the people say  they have always lived.  For the Gitksan the  adaawks also explains how the people came to  settle at their specific river sites and how  their ancestors obtained the hunting lands."  That's your opinion based on your review of these  documents?  A   Yes.  Q   And your other research related to Gitksan and  Wet'suwet'en?  A That's right.  Q   You then you say at the bottom of that page, "The oral  histories" -- this is about the fifth line up, my  lord.  "The oral histories can provide a framework  for understanding the people's social  reality at two levels; first, through  individual house histories and, second, the  broader scope of all these individual  histories viewed together."  Can you expand on that opinion? 11919  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A  Well, I mentioned it before the break, I believe.  2 Q   Okay.  That is the inter -- a restatement of what you  3 were saying about the combination of all of the house  4 histories?  5 A   Yes.  You know, no one chief has all of the adaawks in  6 his head at any time in his life, just the ones that  7 are -- that he -- he is familiar with in terms of his  8 own kinship ties and who his father's side is and who  9 the house groups are that his group have interacted  10 with for a long period of time.  And in addition to  11 that, every chief has the experience of the recitation  12 of the adaawks in the feast by others.  These are  13 public rather abbreviated versions, and they don't  14 have any right to recite them, because it's not their  15 property.  16 Q   And you conclude at the bottom of that page and the  17 top of the next that, "When this information is  18 supplemented with other available data a generally  19 reliable view of pre-contact can be established."  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And that's -- now, then you go on to basically --  22 A   This is the position that has been adopted by a number  23 of anthropologists working in this area right back to  24 the days of Emmons, Sapir, Barbeau, and more recently  25 people like George MacDonald, John Cove, Susan  26 Marsden.  27 Q   When you say working in this area you mean in the area  28 of dealing with oral histories or in the area of --  29 A   Dealing with oral histories within this culture area.  30 Q   Of the Gitksan?  31 A   Of the Skeena Nass drainage systems.  32 Q   Okay.  Thank you.  Now, you go on in pages 64 to 69 to  33 deal with the Fenton material which you basically  34 explained to us yesterday -- yesterday morning.  And  35 then at page 69, and this is still with respect to the  36 oral histories, you refer to training, and you say --  37 middle paragraph, my lord.  38  39 "In earlier times, before the intervention  40 of government agencies and other  41 institutions in the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  42 communities the grandparents taught all the  43 children the narratives of their origins.  44 This was as crucial to social continuity and  45 social survival as were fishing and hunting  46 skills for physical survival."  47 11920  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  GRANT  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  GRANT  17  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  GRANT  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  THE  COURT  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  THE  COURT  45  A  46  THE  COURT  47  Then the next paragraph you say;  "The Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en elders and  chiefs urge each new generation to learn the  narratives, customs and philosophy of the  cultures."  Are you referring to today there?  I am.  Maybe I could just make an aside here.  There's a term  used in the court called ethnographic present.  M'hm.  Yes.  I'm sorry.  Ethnographic presence?  Present.  The ethnographic --  It was referred to by Mr. Goldie in  cross-examination of Ms. Harris.  I won't -- I'll --  It was?  I don't need to introduce it that way.  Could you explain what is ethnographic present?  In anthropology it is a term that refers to the fact  that the ethnographic accounts which have been  collected and published are all referred to the  studies undertaken of people at a certain point in  their history.  So the ethnographic present is a term  used in comparative -- in a comparative sense in terms  of trying to delineate a social structure and a set of  beliefs at one point in time so that you assume for  purposes of comparison that the time factor, it does  not impinge, that we all know that societies change,  but for purposes of comparison will use the  ethnographic present.  That is the time that the  ethnography was written.  This is what was reflected.  The material there is then used comparatively without  reference to the changing processes.  I'm sorry.  What do you assume for the purposes of  comparison?  That the time frame is the present in the studies that  are -- make up your comparative work.  So you talk  about the -- the kinship institutions of this tribe,  and the kinship institutions of another tribe and  they're assumed to be existing today for purposes of  analysis.  Purposes of analysis or purposes of comparison?  Purposes of comparative analysis.  Comparative analysis.  That is compared with whom or  to what? 11921  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  MR.  GRANT  7  Q  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  GRANT  10  Q  11  THE  COURT  12  13  14  MR.  GRANT  15  Q  16  17  THE  COURT  18  19  20  21  22  A  23  24  25  MR.  GRANT  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  GRANT  44  Q  45  A  46  47  Comparing a number of different instances of  societies, a number of different societies one with  another in terms of the similarities and differences  of their institutions.  So the term is used to -- to  put them all in one continuum.  Maybe can you explain it by an example.  :  I don't understand that.  :  I -- no, I appreciate, my lord.  Can you explain it by an example?  :  Anytime somebody uses the word continuum I don't  understand them.  I've heard it used so broadly I  don't even know what it means now.  :  Okay.  Could you just take for example any two enthnographies  where you'd use this from different time periods?  :  Well, let me give you an example.  Mrs. McKenzie  told us about the maidens using the fish bones for  directions.  Mr. Art Matthews told us about the maiden  that got taken away by the grizzly bear.  Now, do you  assume those two things happened at the same time?  No.  It has nothing to do with the historical  sequencing.  It's a term used to refer to similarity  of structure, a social structure.  Well, Boas did an ethnography of the Tsimshian; is  that right?  No, he didn't really do it.  It's not a good example.  He collected myths or oral tradition.  Okay.  But there are accounts of -- of the -- an example that  comes to mind from my own training is there is a book  called "African Systems of Political Thought or  Kinship and Politics".  They analyze six or eight  different African tribes.  The work that this analysis  is based on was a number of anthropologists working at  different periods over from the late nineteenth  century until the nineteen forties.  So they -- when  the anthropologists are comparing institutions they  say among the Bemba, among the Ndembu the situation is  this .  :  Sorry.  Madam reporter needs Bemba and Ndembu.  Bemba is B-E-M-B-A and Ndembu is N-D-E-M-B-U.  You  assume that these -- for purposes of analysis that the  structural components of the societies you're 11922  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 comparing are in existence today or they're outside of  2 time, and that's referred to as the ethnographic  3 present.  4 Q   So when the later anthropologists wrote this book they  5 would take a ninteenth century ethnography of one  6 group and maybe a 1930 ethnography of another group --  7 A   That's right.  8 Q   -- And deal with them as though they were at the same  9 time?  10 A  As though they are at the same time, although they  11 know that both societies are subject to social change  12 and are not what they were at the time that those  13 studies were undertaken.  14 THE COURT:  Do you assume that they were at the same time or  15 they were at the present?  16 A   You assume that they're out of time.  So you speak in  17 the present as though it's an eternal situation for  18 purposes of analysis.  19 MR. GRANT:  Now, my lord, I'll — that was only leading up to  20 the point that I wanted to get out of this report.  21 Q   If you look at what I've just referred you to you say  22 in the middle paragraph on page 69, "The grandparents  23 taught all the children" in the past tense, and in the  24 first sentence on the last paragraph you say, "Gitksan  25 and Wet'suwet'en elders and chiefs urge each new  26 generation" and that's in the present tense.  Now, my  27 only point here is do you in this report use the  28 present as ethnographic present or do you use -- when  29 you are talking in the present tense in this report  30 are you talking about now?  31 A  When I use the present tense I'm talking about now.  32 When I use the past tense I'm talking about the past.  33 THE COURT:  That's a good system.  34 A   I'm trying not to talk to the ethnographic present in  35 other words.  36 MR. GRANT:  I don't know if I should have even raised it, my  37 lord, but I was concerned because it had been  38 mentioned.  39 A   Perhaps we need Mr. Goldie to clarify the matter.  40 MR. GRANT:  Mr. Goldie isn't here.  41 Q   Now, you're talking here about the teachings.  Now,  42 what is the significance of this -- of the teachings  43 of the adaawks or kungax with respect to the use of  44 oral history, if any?  The teaching or training.  45 A   This is an oral culture with important things which  46 the members of the culture, both Gitksan and  47 Wet'suwet'en culture, but I'm speaking now with 11923  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 reference to the Gitksan adaawk, the things which are  2 considered by the house groups to be important, and  3 important documents that have to be passed on from  4 generation to generation, and if you don't have a  5 system of writing how is this done?  So one of the  6 ways is to have a specific training of the things you  7 want passed on to the coming generations.  So there's  8 a class in learning your histories from your old  9 people, or there's a specific training.  The old  10 people will size up the situation.  Today is more --  11 they're selective as to who they will train.  And they  12 then start the work of explaining the narrative of  13 their history to their children or to the  14 grandchildren, and they do this in various ways.  And  15 one of the most telling ways is in the course of  16 hunting and fishing and using the land referring to  17 their common history of their house group history and  18 they carry out their activities on the land.  And  19 various people have told me that they were -- they  20 remember their first exposure to this process when  21 their Grannys were telling them what they thought were  22 stories.  They wouldn't carry on with the story until  23 they learned that portion of it.  They were always  24 eager to find out what happened next, but the  25 grandparents would not carry on until they could  26 recite it to their satisfaction.  So there is a degree  27 of oral training for the purposes of passing the  28 heritage down verbally generation after generation.  29 Q   Is there any parallel with the Iroquois study that you  30 did?  31 A   There is a similar procedure for the important  32 documents that are passed down with the Iroquois, and  33 they use mneumonic devices.  M-N-E-U-M-O-N-I-C.  Oh,  34 it's a word which means memory devices for remembering  35 the important events and those parts of their heritage  36 which are important to the present day social  37 structure.  The wampum belt is one example.  And the  38 speaker in the winter ceremonies of the Iroquois has a  39 cane called a memory cane which has various notches  40 and insignia on it much like a rosary, and they feel  41 it as they're reciting.  It's a long recitation.  It  42 takes three days.  The history of the earth is  43 involved, the formation of their political system, and  44 so on.  And they go down over the notches which  45 informs them of the relationship between the different  46 events and the different characters.  47 Q   Now, I'd like to refer you to page 73 of your report. 11924  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 And this again you referred to.  Actually you'd been  2 referring to different methods of training referred to  3 by Art Matthews in his evidence.  Then you go on to  4 say;  5  6 "To members of an urban, industrial society  7 these ancient practices are often dismissed  8 of instances of superstition; or they are  9 regarded as interesting vestiges of a  10 folkloric past, and as such, are considered  11 to be suitable entertainment for children."  12  13 And skipping a sentence.  14  15 "In my opinion however, these practices  16 employ rather sophisticated psychological  17 techniques, including the procedure of  18 visualization to focus the minds and the  19 energies of the young, and channel their  20 personal strengths and potentials."  21  22 And that's your opinion?  23 A   That's my opinion.  24 Q   Can you expand on that?  25 A   It's based on what the people have told me as well  26 as -- told me about the training for remembering their  27 adaawks, but it also seems to be the same procedure  28 which is used in training for hunting.  The  29 visualization of the species that your family needs,  30 and the system of psychic training which hunters  31 undergo of focusing on the object and preparing the  32 mind to visualize the whole procedure that you're  33 going to engage in, and focus on your objective and  34 then they say you go after it and the project is a  35 success.  So the same techniques -- I perceive the  36 same techniques in the preparation for hunting as in  37 the -- the visualization of the oral history.  One  38 aspect of oral traditions in various societies that  39 folklorists bring out is that the teller after an  40 initial introductory period becomes an integral part  41 of the actual narrative.  He becomes one of the  42 characters or he's in it pushing it forward.  So he's  43 visualized the events from his training and then he  44 acts and performs them out.  45 Q   Okay.  I'd like to go to page 79.  And you state  46 there -- after the quotation from Yaga'lahl you state;  47 11925  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 "The contemplation of oral instructions,  2 history, morality, practical techniques  3 needed in daily life is a part of the  4 ongoing education of Gitksan and  5 Wet'suwet'en people."  6  7 Again, this is your opinion?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And conclusion.  Now, do you -- can you explain --  10 expand on that, why you've concluded that it's part of  11 an ongoing education of Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  12 people today?  13 A  Well, I've seen a certain amount of it.  And people  14 have spoken to me about it.  It's part -- they say  15 it's part of the training to be a chief.  And these  16 procedures are engaged in by those who are willing to  17 take up the responsibilities of leading their house  18 group and/or the responsibilities of being a good  19 leader of their local community.  20 Q   Now, you go on to explain the Walter Wright Men of  21 Madeek, and then at page 83 you state a conclusion in  22 this section.  You've already explained about the  23 Madeek — Men of Madeek.  You state;  24  25 "Finally, the researcher of oral tradition  26 must be critical and comparative in outlook,  27 but ought not to dismiss the whole tradition  28 or history because a portion of it puzzles,  29 annoys or perplexes his or her common  30 sense."  31  32 And that is your opinion?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   Is that an opinion that's accepted in your field?  35 MR. WILLMS:  I object, my lord.  That's not an acceptable  36 question.  My lord, the witness is giving his opinion  37 evidence, not the opinion evidence of the field.  And  38 he's been qualified to give anthropological evidence.  39 In my submission he can't boot strap his opinion by  40 dragging in a hundred anthropologists who aren't here  41 who say that's the way you do it.  42 THE COURT:  He can't do that, but can he not say what is  43 currently regarded as good practice in anthropological  44 research?  45 MR. WILLMS:  Certainly.  And he can refer to someone who says  46 that to back that up.  Something that allows us to  47 test it, my lord.  But the broad statement -- broad 11926  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 statements like that are untestable in this system.  2 There's no way for us to get to the bottom of it if he  3 says "Oh, yes, that's it."  4 THE COURT:  Are you saying that's an expression of opinion  5 unless someone else has previously done it?  6 MR. WILLMS:  In my submission, my lord, the most this witness  7 can do if he's asked to express an opinion about what  8 other people's opinions are he's got to refer to a  9 person, an individual, something written down.  He  10 can't be asked, "Well, what does the field think about  11 this?"  12 THE COURT:  What is the accepted belief in the anthropological  13 community.  14 MR. WILLMS:  Yeah, I'd object to that too, my lord, for the same  15 reasons.  That there is no way to test what the  16 accepted belief, or if there is an accepted belief in  17 the anthropological community.  18 THE COURT:  How about testing it by cross-examination in due  19 course?  20 MR. WILLMS:  Well, my lord, I suppose that the answer that I'm  21 seeking now could be gained in cross-examination and  22 then we could stand it down while we all look for the  23 reference that the witness looked for and then have an  24 opportunity to come back at it in a different way, but  25 this would speed it up.  26 THE COURT:  I've forgotten now precisely what was the question  27 to which the objection was taken.  I think I know  28 generally what it was, but can you phrase -- do you  29 want to pursue this, Mr. Grant?  30 MR. GRANT:  Yes, I do, because I think the objection is without  31 merit.  The point is that this witness is an  32 anthropologist, an expert in the field.  He states.  33 "The researcher of oral tradition must be critical and  34 comparative in outlook."  He makes this comment, and  35 is this -- I think it goes to weight, of course.  It's  36 a question of weight.  Is this -- I think it is  37 relevant for you to know whether this is his only --  38 own view or not.  39 With respect to my friend's concerns, my friends  40 have referred to Vansina who has written a text on  41 oral history.  They referred to Kari -- I can't  42 remember all the names of the authors yesterday that  43 deal with some aspects of this.  We have had a  44 cross-examination of numerous other anthropological  45 experts.  My friend is very, very humble in suggesting  46 that he knows so little when he's referred to these  47 very other authors.  I've got no problem with asking 11927  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  COURT  GRANT  COURT  A  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT  WILLMS  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  him if he could give an example of others that have  the opinion, but I thought --  Let's see if he does.  I thought that that was --  Let's find out if there has been an expression --  published expression of view on this particular  opinion that you've given at the beginning of the  bottom paragraph on page 83.  There are -- there are many published accounts of the  importance of the oral tradition even when it annoys  and perplexes the common sense of the western analyst.  And then there's been a collection of them made by Dr.  Cruikshank at the Department of Anthropology at UBC,  and she has done an annotated bibliography of most of  the major sources, and there must be a couple of  hundred titles on that list.  Well, that answers your question and the objection,  does it not?  It does, my lord.  It answers the question as well.  Thank you.  Yes.  A  Q  Now, I'd like to refer you, again, I'm sorry, to the  blue book, your document book number one, at tab 2  firstly.  And this is the Fenton article at page 270.  Yes, 270.  And I referred you to this yesterday at the  time of your qualifications, but I want to ask you  about this comment part way down on that page 270  after he talks about the Handsome Lake religion is  recent, and then;  "But the league..."  You explained yesterday that he was referring to  histories, oral histories relating to the league.  "Is loaded down with too much intellectual,  literary, and ritualistic baggage to be a  recent production."  Now, the only reason I'm referring to that is that  comment -- does that comment regarding the  intellectual, literary and ritualistic baggage, first  of all, you're familiar with the oral histories of the  league from your research, aren't you?  Yes.  Do you know what he's referring to there when -- 11928  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  THE  COURT  11  12  A  13  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  GRANT  16  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  GRANT  19  Q  20  21  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  GRANT  24  Q  25  26  THE  COURT  27  28  MR.  GRANT  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  He's referring to the metaphoric and symbolic and  spiritual content of the earlier versions or earlier  aspects of the oral tradition of the Iroquois.  Okay.  Does that statement -- would that apply to  either the kungax or the adaawks from your review of  those?  It applies to both.  Okay.  Thank you.  Now, I'd like to refer you finally  to tab 3.  :  Just a moment.  Did I gather yesterday that Handsome  Lake is a person's name?  Yes.  It's a rough translation of an Iroquois word  which means a beautiful shining lake.  :  All right.  Thank you.  :  That's the name of the profit that the witness  referred to yesterday.  :  Yes.  Tab 3 of the same material I'd like to refer you to.  This is the Trigger -- now, first of all -- and you've  indicated you were familiar with this?  :  What page, please?  :  Page 167.  Now, you indicated yesterday that Trigger did research  with the Hurons?  :  Not with them.  They were all deceased by the time  he did his work.  Did Trigger do ethnographic work, ethnohistorical work  or both?  He did ethnohistorical work, and he's done some  archeological work.  So he did not -- he's not one that is engaged in  participant observation, for example?  I don't know about his full career, but in relation to  the Huron I think most of his work around the Great  Lakes, no.  He's very reputed for his work in  ethnohistory.  At the bottom of page 167 -- well, first of all, right  after that underlining above there that I referred you  to yesterday after he says;  "While oral traditions may provide a  valuable record of former beliefs and  values, caution is needed in interpreting  that sort of information historically." 11929  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  Q  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  Q  44  45  46  THE COURT  47  MR. GRANT  I referred you to that yesterday and you indicated  that you agreed?  Yes.  Then he says;  "Anthropological research in North America  and elsewhere indicates that tribal  societies generally have little interest in  conserving an accurate knowledge of the past  over long periods of time for its own sake."  Do you agree with that statement?  Well, knowledge of history for its own sake I would  agree with that, but not that there is no  pre-occupation with oral history in different parts of  North America.  Okay.  And then he says;  "What pass as historical histories are often  mythical charters explaining and validating  current social relations and these change as  social relations change."  Do you agree with that statement?  Yes.  Just a sec.  Sorry, I was thinking of something  else.  I want to read it again.  Yeah, read that sentence, please.  Well, that is true, but it has to be qualified in  terms of the actual cultural context of the region  that you're studying.  Okay.  With respect to the Gitksan and the  Wet'suwet'en is that statement correct or not?  No, I don't think it is.  Why not?  Because the social structure as it stands today, and  as it has stood since people have been recording it,  demands a certain continuity or a certain selectivity  from the history of the kinship groupings that make up  the society.  The validation of claims to authority,  ownership, names and position in the community require  this type of information.  It's an integral part of  the culture in this specific region.  Now, I'd like you to go down to where it's -- Mr.  Trigger then goes on to talk about the palisaded  villages and longhouses.  I'm sure you can --  :  I'm sorry.  What kind of villages?  :  Palisaded villages and longhouses.  He's referring 11930  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 to the Iroquois there.  2 THE COURT:  Thank you.  3 MR. GRANT:  4 Q   He says;  5  6 "The small populations of tribal societies,  7 and their general lack of concern with the  8 inheritance of private property, tend not to  9 produce the systematic variations in oral  10 traditions that are useful for evaluating  11 their historical authenticity."  12  13 Do you -- is that statement accurate with respect  14 to the Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en, or either of  15 them?  16 A   No, I don't think it is for the reasons I've already  17 stated.  18 Q   Then he states, "The recording of oral traditions as  19 well may be suspect."  Is that statement accurate or  20 not with respect to the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en?  21 A  Well, with the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en there's such a  22 large body of material.  Some of the tellings are  23 pretty rotten and some are marvelous.  Some of them  24 are very complex and they give a lot of detail and a  25 lot of things that can be pursued when you're seeking  26 to find some cross-referencing or some corroboration  27 within the body of work itself.  There's so much  28 material that's been recorded.  There's a lot to work  29 with.  And quite often the material that was collected  30 in the east had been forgotten or hadn't been  31 important to the people, and not such a large body had  32 been collected for any one group of people.  33 For example, with the Iroquois I found that they  34 had family histories too which were not that important  35 to their social structure so they weren't something  36 that would be recited and remembered, and they seemed  37 to change within.  And there was a certain degree of  38 input from the present culture, because it wasn't that  39 important to the ongoing pre-occupations of their  40 society and their system of meaning, and that.  I'm  41 thinking of their stories about who was the first --  42 who were the first families to start to move into the  43 territory from the Southern States and from Central  44 America into the Great Lakes and establish their  45 primacy and their control of the land, but this has  46 been superseded by other events in their history which  47 are more important to them so they don't pay much 11931  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  attention to the fidelity, and they bring in theories  about the diffusion of maze or corn which are -- seem  to me they have been reading a lot of the works of  scientists, and so on, so they're informed by the  modern system and it's been relegated to the role of  an information within the family.  So you did an analysis of the oral history of the  Iroquois as part of your work with them?  It wasn't an analyis.   It was a component part of  the —  Of the work?  Of the participant observation interviews that I did  with them.  And you find that distinctive.  That's different with  the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en?  Yes.  Yes, because those actual family -- the family  histories which are important to the ongoing political  process among the Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en are the  things that the people don't have a purity of, or a  commonality of position on among the Iroquois.  M'hm.  It's the stories of the formation of their league and  the coming together of the various tribes, the ceasing  of animosities, and the building up of peace which  allowed them to become one great power.  It's that  whole process which is remembered in the detail of  something like 18 hours of telling.  It may be an appropriate time, my lord, to mark tab  3 and 3A as the next exhibits.  Tab 3 being Trigger,  the reference I just referred to.  It's already marked as Exhibit 886.  No.  That was tab 2, my lord.  I'm sorry.  That's quite correct.  What would the next number be?  REGISTRAR:  888.  GRANT:  And tab 3A would be Exhibit 889.  COURT:  Yes.  All right.  REGISTRAR:  Tab 3A is?  GRANT:  Sahlins, S-A-H-L-I-N-S, Marshall Sahlins,  Tribesman, Ages 38 and 40.  Q  A  MR. GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  196?  (EXHIBIT  (EXHIBIT  Tab 3 - Trigger Reference)  Tab 3A - Sahlins Reference)  MR.  GRANT:  Now, I'd like to go back to your report and refer  you to chapter two.  It's at tab 2 of the court copy, 11932  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 my lord.  Page 90.  2 Q   Now, this first section, which goes from page 90 to  3 page 103, this -- in this text you are explaining the  4 economic system and the economic model that you  5 utilized with the Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en; is  6 that right?  7 A   That's right.  8 Q   Sorry, my lord.  Now, with respect to an aspect of  9 tribal society you talked about it as, I think,  10 decentralized type of society or a society that --  11 without -- non-hierarchal.  More egalitarian I think  12 was the word you used.  13 A  Well, tribes are generally egalitarian, but some  14 tribes don't stay put, if you like.  They develop into  15 hierarchal systems.  That's back to the hated word of  16 continuum.  At one end there's a very extreme emphasis  17 on the morality of egalitarianism.  18 Q   I'm sorry.  19 A   There's a certain degree of egalitarianism even in the  20 hierarchal systems.  21 Q   I was just introducing the concept and I misstated it.  22 When you look at the names, for example, of chiefs  23 among the Wet'suwet'en or the Gitksan does this assist  24 you in determining the type of society, that is the  25 types of names that are used, the chiefs' names?  26 A   No, in a sense it doesn't.  27 Q   Can you explain that?  28 A  Well, I don't have a complete list, but I have -- in  29 the course of my work I've asked people the English  30 equivalent of some of the names, and one thing that  31 strikes me is that so many of the names are very  32 derogatory terms.  33 Q   M'hm.  34 A  And yet the names are considered to be very  35 illustrious in the social structure and in the  36 communities and in the feast hall by virtue of the  37 fact that the holders of the names have worked very  38 hard to maintain the standing and the image of their  39 house in the course of the way they live their lives  40 and pay off their debts, and so on, but the actual  41 meanings are, some of them, as though you're calling  42 somebody by an insulting name.  And the way I analyzed  43 this is it's consistent with the way people are kept  44 in line or not allowed to rise too high above their  45 fellows in a band society, such as my Professor  46 Richard Lee studied in Southern Africa where he  47 described in detail the institution of insulting the 11933  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 meat.  When a hunter comes in with a big juicy animal  2 it's the task of all the other hunters to complain  3 about what a scrawny, dried up carcass this is so that  4 he won't get his -- all puffed up and get out of line.  5 I mean, they're very pleased to get his meat, but they  6 don't want a hunter who's hard to deal with, because  7 they don't have the institutions to underpin a  8 hierarchal leadership system.  So the same sort of  9 thing is happening, I feel, with the some of the --  10 the use of some of these rather insulting names.  So  11 the person is making the name lustrous by his  12 activities, yet the name in itself makes other people  13 laugh, so that this two way process of rising up in  14 the social scale the same time the system laughs at  15 it's own heirarchy by --  16 Q   Can you think of an example among the Wet'suwet'en?  17 THE COURT:  I can think of an example of the judges with their  18 morning assignments.  19 A  Well, the name of the Wet'suwet'en chief Wah tah kwets  20 has a meaning associated with excrement.  21 MR. GRANT:   M'hm.  22 A   That's one example.  There are others graphic or more  23 graphic than that.  Not all of them, but there's a  24 significant number.  25 Q   I'd like to refer you to page 91 at the bottom of your  26 report, and this is getting into the economic system  27 with respect to the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en.  And you  28 say;  29  30 "According to the type of social relations  31 prevailing in the society the goods and  32 services are circulated to serve the social  33 and material needs of community.  The social  34 relations are also the basis upon which  35 production activity are organized and the  36 system of ownership is maintained.  These  37 relations form a social system which has  38 economic, political, religious and other  39 aspects that in a state society would be  40 divided into distinct administrative  41 institutions.  The economy is organized and  42 the produce distributed, according to the  43 principles of interaction established in the  44 social system."  45  46 And that is your opinion?  47 A   Yes. 11934  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  Now, can you explain that with respect to the  Wet'suwet'en and the Gitksan what you're referring to  there, or expand on your opinion generally if you wish  to?  We have already discussed this, haven't we, the fact  that the kinship groupings are the -- the field in  which the economic activities are played out, and that  the political activities are played out, and so on.  So that's the reference with which you're referring to  there?  Yes.  WILLMS:  My lord, if the witness could define what he means  by ownership.  GRANT:  We'll, come to that.  WILLMS:  Well, my lord, he was asked whether that was his  opinion.  And ownership is a broad ranging term, and  if he's speaking of legal ownership then I will object  to the opinion, because it falls within your  lordship's purview.  If he's talking about some  anthropological ownership then I won't object, but I  would like to know what ownership means.  I think —  My lord, there's an entire section of this report on  ownership, and I will ask the witness ultimately what  he means by ownership.  I would like to deal with it  there.  I'm not suggesting it's not something to be  dealt with, and I'm not -- of course, I'm aware of the  rule that the witness isn't going to give an opinon  within our judicial system about ownership.  That's  not the point.  Well, Mr. Grant, I don't know why -- he's just been  asked about it.  It's at the bottom of the line of  page 91.  Why can't we ask him what he means by that  and I can make a note here and --  Well, we will be coming back to it, but I'll deal  with it now.  Not in this context.  COURT  GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  No.  Now, what I'd like to ask you is do anthropologists  use the term ownership?  Yes.  What are they referring to when anthropologists use  the term ownership?  They're referring to the rights to possess and enjoy  property according to the laws of their society, to  the fullest extent of the laws of their society.  Okay. 11935  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  THE COURT  7  MR. GRANT  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  And this entails a number of criteria of whether they  have exclusive possession of it and how they deal with  foreigners or non -- non-possessing, non-owning groups  who want to use their land.  There is a whole body of  rights and obligations associated with property.  :  Thank you.  Now, yesterday you referred to the concept of  ownership of territory as part of the study of  ethnology; is that right?  Yes.  Quite often it's called land tenure systems.  Okay.  Now --  That's in reference to landed property.  Ownership is  broader than land tenure, but the subject is often  discussed under the rubric of land tenure.  Among anthropologists?  Yes.  Is there a distinction in the anthropological field  between land tenure and ownership other than the fact  that ownership may deal with things other than land?  I'm not sure I follow your question.  Okay.  You've referred to two terms, ownership and  land tenure.  Yes.  Land tenure refers to the nature of the rights  and responsibilities involved in the holding and  enjoying of land.  Yes.  But there are other property relations that  anthropologists study as well such as rights over  individual moveable property, rights that are  associated with individual members of groups as  opposed to the group in itself.  That sort of thing.  Now, in your report you give opinions with respect to  ownership of territories and fishing sites.  Yes.  And when you refer to ownership of territories and  fishing sites are you using that term ownership in the  anthropological sense?  Yes.  I'm afraid I don't have the mind to understand  fully the legal sense.  Not to worry, that's for his lordship to deal with.  But a number of the people who have delineated these  questions in anthropology have been jurists, and  they're now considered to be part of the tradition and  history of anthropology, such as Sir Henry Main and  his work on status and contract relations in non-state  societies in the history of Roman law, and so on.  And 11936  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 we study these things to a certain extent in our  2 background training.  And Professor Gluckman had a  3 legal background before he became an anthropologist  4 too.  His work informed a number of others and --  5 well, there have been -- anthropologists have had a  6 number of backgrounds.  They have come into the field  7 from a number of backgrounds and probably have brought  8 the influence of some of their earlier training to  9 bear on the study of the markedly different  10 institutions that they see in the field.  11 Q   Well, let me be -- give you a hypothetical.  If -- as  12 you do later on in your report you refer, for example,  13 if you refer to this chief owns this fishing site or  14 this chief owns this territory.  15 A   I'm referring to anthropological concepts of ownership  16 as I understand them.  17 Q   Are you talking about ownership within if it was a  18 Gitksan -- within the Gitksan system?  19 A   It's ownership as the Gitksan understand it, and  20 it's -- but my understanding is from a broader  21 comparative view of it -- of the situation compared to  22 a similar situation in other societies.  23 Q   A comparative anthropological view?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   I'd like to refer to page 95 of your report.  And you  26 state there, "In this report the exchange process is  27 treated as only one of several important factors in  28 the economy."  And you explained that yesterday, that  29 that's what you were talking about in some examples of  30 exchange is a very primary part --  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   -- Of the economic anthropological analysis.  33  34 "In the past, the subsistence demands of the  35 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en seasonal round  36 placed limits on the possibilities for  37 acquiring wealth through exchange.  This is  38 not to say that exchange has not long been  39 an integral feature of the economy, but  40 merely that its importance is closely  41 related to economic productive activities on  42 the land and at the fishing sites.  (Landed  43 property rights in a sense protected this  44 important seasonal round from unplanned  45 harvesting by others, and from incursions by  46 neighbours; that is, it protected the rights  47 to allocate kinship labour within fixed 11937  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 territories.)"  2  3 A   Incursions by strangers, not neighbours.  4 Q   Sorry.  Incursions by strangers.  That is your opinion  5 with respect to the Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Okay.  Can you expand on that, and particularly on the  8 last, the parenthetical remark, the landed property  9 rights sentence.  10 THE COURT:  That's pretty clear, isn't it?  11 A   I'm just stressing the fact that in the cultures the  12 systems of meanings of the societies under  13 investigation, the activities of producing your  14 material needs in the course of an annual cycle inform  15 the nature of the exchanges in that the idiom that is  16 used is in terms of trade in the early contact or the  17 pre-contact period is based on the exchanging of food  18 stuffs in general.  And the metaphors and symbols  19 involved in that go to inform what, in effect, are  20 marked exchanges with other peoples.  But the whole  21 idiom of the exchange is informed by the  22 pre-occupation of the people with making their living  23 with the collection of different food stuffs.  24 Q   Okay.  And —  25 A  And then its local kinship distribution.  26 MR. GRANT:  My lord, I'd like to go to the next section here on  27 the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en mixed economy.  Page 103.  28 Q   Now, you state there at the beginning that;  29  30 "Today the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en have a  31 mixed economy in which families combine  32 subsistence hunting, fishing and  33 berry-picking with wage employment,  34 trapping, commercial fishing, farming, small  35 business ventures, government social service  36 payments and positions in the professions.  37 This mixed economy is the legacy of European  38 settlement in Canada."  39  40 Just as an introduction, is what you've described  41 in that sentence what you mean by the mixed economy of  42 the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en?  43 A   Yes.  And that's in the present day.  44 Q   Okay.  You say that's a legacy of European settlement  45 in Canada.  Now, then you go on to state;  46  47 "Like other Native peoples of Canada the 1193?  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en have participated  in the economy of the newcomers.  Yet they  have sought to do so not by abandoning the  hunting, firshing and berry-picking  lifestyle which is at the core of their  respective cultures, but rather, by updating  the planned use of resources in the  territories in accord with the principles of  decentralized decision-making, reciprocal  relations between groups and respect toward  the land and the cycles of growth therein."  That is your opinion; is that right?  A   It is.  Q   Now, do you wish to say more about that -- that  statement, expand on it, or can you?  A  Well, we have -- we always have to be aware when we  are dealing in the analysis of tribal economy in the  1980's that it's not strictly a tribal economy in the  sense that it incorporates a lot of features of the  national and global economies that these tribes are  now part of.  Q   M'hm.  A   So I am looking at the features of the economy which  were the core of the productive activities of the past  and trying to understand their significance in the  present day economy.  Q   Well, why do you -- why do you conclude that they  have -- they are participating in the economy not by  abandoning hunting, fishing and berry-picking  lifestyle which is at the core of their cultures, but  rather, by updating the planned use of the resources?  A   That's my observations in the community, and things  that are discussed in the course of feasting and  meetings of chiefs, and so on.  And people certainly  are on the land, and they value the produce they get  very highly in their culture.  Whether or not it is a  major part of their diet or not it's very important to  the social structure and the system of meanings and  the things that make their identity, make the  individuals either Wet'suwet'en or Gitksan by their  identity.  MR. GRANT:  It may be a convenient place to break, my lord.  THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you 11939  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  2  3 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  4 a true and accurate transcript of the  5 proceedings herein to the best of my  6 skill and ability.  7  8  9  10 Peri McHale, Official Reporter  11 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 11940  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 2:00 p.m.)  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  THE COURT:  Mr. Grant.  MR. GRANT:  Q I was referring you to page 103, chapter two of your  report, Dr. Daly. I just would like to refer you to  the last sentence on that page which states:  "The present-day economy, with its adherence to  the land, its technological change and its links  to the Canadian market economy, is referred to  here as a 'mixed economy'."  And here you are referring to the Gitksan and the  Wet'suwet'en economy; is that right?  A   Yes.  Q   Going on to page 104, I just like to refer you to this  next section and ask you about it.  You state:  "Long adept at participating in the annual  exchange of goods with coastal and interior  neighbours, the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en have been  able to make the change to commodity production  with considerable ease, supplying primary resource  commodities whenever, in the past century or more,  the market conditions have been favourable.  They  have produced furs, railway ties and power poles;  they have provided bush guiding services, fish,  meat, fuel and transport for survey crews, trading  companies, construction crews and prospectors."  Now, you state in there that -- can you expand as  to what the foundation is for those two statements?  A   This is the existing historical records for the  nineteenth century.  Q   Okay.  A  And what people say they have done in their families  and what their grandparents have done in their  lifetime.  Q   Now going on to page 105, you -- 105, 106, the middle  paragraph, you start:  "The annual domestic economy of a family in  a mixed economy situation is often multi-stranded;  that is to say, the family's material survival is  the result of combined activities in the food and 11941  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 shelter-producing sphere, and the cash/market  2 sphere."  3  4 You are referring here to the Gitksan and to the  5 Wet'suwet'en?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q  8 "People in most economies evaluate some goods and  9 human activities on the basis of their usefulness,  10 and other goods and activities on the basis of  11 their convertibility into money.  In the main  12 social system and economy of Canada the latter  13 type of economic evaluation predominates; in the  14 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en mixed economy however, a  15 clear ascendancy of the type of evaluation that  16 favours the market and convertibility of local  17 products has not occurred.  The evaluation of  18 goods and services on the basis of use and direct  19 need continues to be highly important among the  20 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en even though today the  21 people must engage in the cash economy in order to  22 equip and outfit themselves even in their hunting  23 and fishing pursuits on the land.  The large sums  24 of money used in feast (style) transactions today  25 are viewed not as cash 'market style' payments,  26 but as a paying back of gifts received and  27 services rendered.  In these cases, the cash  28 stands for the former gift items such as tanned  29 hides and the rich foods of the land and river.  30 In my opinion this indicates that while both  31 features exist in the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  32 mixed economy, the market factors have not  33 eclipsed the subsistence factors."  34  35 Now, why -- why do you come to that conclusion as  36 a result of what you've described?  37 A  Well, obviously I've talked to a number of people  38 about what it is that is evaluated and what the  39 meanings of the objects which are exchanged in feasts,  40 what their meanings are.  But we all know that in the  41 feast today, thousands of dollars change hands and  42 dollars are part of a market economy, they are your  43 ultimate commodity, if you like, they can stand for  44 many different goods and services.  But the way the  45 elders have explained it to me, is that these monies  46 are part of the necessities of your daily existence,  47 and it's your necessities of the daily existence which 11942  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 are important in your feasting exchanges, things from  2 your land or things from your labour which are  3 invested with particular meaning in terms of the  4 social exchanges that take place on those occasions.  5 Q   Well, is there some different utilization of, say, the  6 money that would be obtained from wage labour by a  7 Gitksan, and the money that a Gitksan would obtain in  8 the feast in terms of your model of the economics and  9 the significance of the cash?  10 A   The actual point in the Canadian economy where the  11 money was made, I don't think that's reflected in the  12 valuation of the money used in the feast.  But the  13 money, wherever it comes from, when it enters into  14 feast transactions is considered to be part of the  15 value of that hard-working house group which is it's  16 being used to raise its name up and pay off its debts.  17 On the other side, conversely, when you receive  18 money as a member of a guest group at a feast, it's  19 not correct to use that money in, say, taking -- going  20 to bingo and blowing it all at bingo.  That money is  21 earmarked for future use in ceremonial exchanges with  22 other houses as it stands for a relationship.  23 And the same thing, I was struck early on in the  24 area, going in to visit peoples' homes, there are  25 quite often a room or a wall in a house which is piled  26 with commodities, clothing, packages of shirts and  27 knick-knacks and dishes and tea towels and things.  28 Q   Unused?  Appeared unused?  29 A  A lot of it is unused, yes.  And there are things that  30 people receive in the course of the feasting and they  31 are held there until they are needed by that -- by the  32 house group of that dweller, of the person dwelling in  33 that house, until they are required by the force of  34 circumstances to have a feast or to pay off their  35 debts through the feasting system.  36 Q   And have you observed these goods used in the feast  37 hall?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And distributed in the feast hall?  40 A   Yes, yes.  41 THE COURT:  But this is a pretty simplistic description of the  42 economy of the Gitksan, isn't it, or the social  43 economy of the Gitksan?  It seems, reading this, that  44 I'm only looking at a very small side of the problem.  45 THE WITNESS:  It's one aspect of the overall economy, but  46 it's -- its social significance is enormous when you  47 are living in the community. 11943  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 THE COURT:  Well, I'm not in any way reflecting on the social  2 significance or the cultural significance, but when  3 you are talking about economic factors, this seems to  4 me, with respect, to just brush aside or brush over,  5 rather, all the other forces that are at work in the  6 larger economy or the larger culture, the old question  7 of education and health and welfare and employment and  8 things of that kind.  It seems to me that this  9 chapter, at least, doesn't seem to be talking about  10 those kinds of things.  Are they not a part of this  11 discussion?  12 THE WITNESS:  They are a part of the discussion, but they — the  13 participation in the gaining of education and  14 know-how, for example, to be on top of the economic  15 possibilities of the 1980's.  It's my impression that  16 these trainings are related to the overall concerns of  17 the house group and there is a consultation between  18 the chiefs and their members as to, say, in education,  19 the importance of gaining training in a certain area  20 because it will be useful for the well-being of their  21 whole kinship group.  22 THE COURT:  You say, "The market factors have not eclipsed the  23 subsistence factors."  Is that an accurate statement?  24 I think that Mr. Alfred told us that they and his  25 family, I think they said they ate moose once a week,  2 6 or game once a week.  I would have thought that the  27 market economy -- the market factors have eclipsed the  28 subsistence factors on an economic basis if not a  29 cultural basis?  30 THE WITNESS:  From our perspective and from our culture, that is  31 correct.  But the way the pervasive use of money, for  32 example, is perceived and explained within the  33 culture, it's still phrased and explained in terms of  34 the old subsistence evaluation.  "This money is  35 standing for goods on the land; this money is standing  36 for the giving of meat which we got on our territory."  37 And even people -- the elders tell their young people,  38 their explanation of taking a job, for example, is  39 that, "You're being given something, you are being  4 0 given employment by an employer and you are giving the  41 employer your labour, and this is a reciprocal  42 relationship much like our family relations."  That's  43 the way they describe and understand the process.  44 While in economic terms, the relationship between an  45 employee and employer in our society is quite  46 different.  47 THE COURT:  Well, I'm only here to listen to what you say, but I 11944  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 want to make sure that I understand.  You say, "The  2 market factors have not eclipsed the subsistence  3 factors."  Is that the way you want your evidence to  4 stand?  5 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  In terms of the on-the-ground, every-day  6 activities that the people engage in, at one level of  7 analysis they are heavily involved in the market  8 sector.  But their involvement in the market sector is  9 very much like tribal peoples in other parts of the  10 world where you go in with a target in mind:  You  11 don't want to be a worker in a factory all your days  12 or an executive in an office.  You go there with a  13 certain objective which is to gain values which are  14 useful in what is most meaningful to you, which is  15 your -- the interests of your kinship grouping.  And  16 it seems to me in the course of human history, it's  17 when that tie with the kinship grouping is broken,  18 then people are committed to the values and the social  19 structures associated with the market economy in an  20 irrevocable manner.  But as long as those kinship ties  21 are still very much alive and in existence, that shift  22 isn't finally made.  23 THE COURT:  Well, I would have thought reading this that the  24 automobile hadn't been invented.  Just seems to me  25 there is something missing in this passage.  This  26 is -- this is your evidence and I don't question it in  27 any sense at all if you are looking at it from a  28 cultural point of view, that's an open question.  But  29 from an economic question, I must say that that  30 statement surprises me.  Mr. Art Mathews, for example,  31 worked for 15 years in the Westar Mill at Gitwingax?  32 THE WITNESS:  And he does that because he is a chief of a house  33 and has a lot of responsibilities.  34 THE COURT:  But he does those other things as well, that would  35 you say that in his personal situation, the market  36 factors have not eclipsed the subsistence factors?  37 THE WITNESS:  In terms of the overall social relations of the  38 economy he has engaged in, my assessment of his -- his  39 work at the sawmill is very much -- is very closely  40 related to the fortunes of his house group, and that's  41 the consciousness of all his members and members of  42 his house.  And they, from time to time, they have --  43 that house has discussions about whether perhaps he  44 should be doing something else which will advance  45 their overall kinship interests in a better way.  46 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  47 MR. GRANT:  I'm going to go on. 11945  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. WILLMS:  My lord, just it's gone on this morning and it's  carrying on this afternoon, I'm not going to get up  everytime, but when this wholesale hearsay is coming  in, I don't want the fact that I'm sitting down to be  taken as acceptance of it as evidence of anything  other than an assumption made by the witness.  THE COURT:  All right.  MR. GRANT:  I'll rely on my friend's comments when we deal with  the transcript evidence as referred to here, my lord.  All right.  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  I would like to refer you to page 107 of your report,  which says:  "Perhaps the most telling example of the  peoples' perceptions of the nature of the goods  they value, use and exchange, are the goods  exchanged in feasts, particularly the foodstuffs  from the territories of the host which attest to  the fertility and productivity of the House, its  labour and its land."  Now, in light of the comments, I maybe should  refer you to the paragraph above it, starting with the  second line which says:  "Commodities predominate in market economies.  In  the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en economies on the  other hand, goods are produced primarily to serve  the life sustenance of the producers, their  relatives and their neighbours.  Here, the goods  are socially appreciated directly for their  utility, for their ability to sustain life and  reproduce the annual cycle of the economy and the  culture itself."  Now, I would like to ask you to -- in light of his  lordship's questions and in light of those statements  of your opinion, can you explain why you came to that  conclusion -- those conclusions?  Well, that's what people told me, and that you'll find  that in my interview notes as well.  And you --  And I observed this.  This was the thing which was on  people's minds when you go and visit them and talk to  them when you are sitting in the feast hall.  You observe this in the feast hall? 11946  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yes.  When people say, "What is it that you give to a  2 chief if you want to show him a sign of respect?  You  3 give him something which is expensive but useful."  4 And that was reiterated to me on many occasions.  5 Q   What kinds of things did you see given to the chiefs  6 at the feasts you were at which --  7 A   Suits of clothing, rifles, mackinaws, tenting,  8 hunting -- camping equipment, fishing rods, and I've  9 talked to people who have received television sets and  10 VCRs as well, which is getting into the luxury items  11 as well, but they are considered necessities in many  12 communities.  13 Q   I would like to refer you to page 109.  The bottom  14 paragraph on page 109:  15  16 "The contemporary commitment of Gitksan and  17 Wet'suwet'en to their land, within the context of  18 a mixed economy, is a reflection of their economic  19 experience since contact.  This is borne out in  20 the way these peoples have conducted small  21 enterprises --"  22  23 Well, before -- I'll read on.  24  25 "-- have conducted small enterprises such as pole  26 camps, sawmills, hand logging and operating  27 commercial fishboats - viable concerns earlier  2 8 this century but which cannot compete today with  29 large-scale industrial production in the region."  30  31 And going to the next paragraph:  32  33 "These small enterprises were closely linked  34 to nature, natural resources, and the subsistence  35 skills of the past, and were practised with as  36 much responsibility toward maintaining the  37 productive capacities of the territories as was  38 possible under the conditions."  39  40 Now, firstly, I would like to ask you if you have  41 any comment on the first sentence of that quote that  42 I've said, if you would like to make --  43 A   Yes.  I think I should have qualified that statement.  44 It's a bit too bald.  45 Q   How would you qualify it?  46 A   It is part -- I think the last phrase, "It is partly a  47 reflection of their economic experience since 11947  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  A  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  Q  A  contact," because there is a lot of --  Bottom of page 109  -- there is a lot of influence by social factors such  as the reserve system, the churches and the  educational process which are also important in that  process.  I'm sorry?  That's the first sentence, "The contemporary  commitment of Gitksan --"  "-- of Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en to their land,  within the context of a mixed economy, is (partly)  a reflection --"  I would like it to read,  "-- of their economic experience since contact."  THE COURT:  All right.  MR. GRANT:  Q   And can you expand on your conclusion about the -- you  describe about:  "...these peoples have conducted small enterprises  such as pole camps, sawmills, hand logging and  commercial fishboats - viable concerns earlier  this century."  And then you say:  "These small enterprises were closely linked  to nature, natural resources, and the subsistence  skills of the past, and were practised with as  much responsibility toward maintaining the  productive capacities of the territories as was  possible under the conditions."  Can you expand on that?  A   People participated in the Canadian economy with  the -- with its changing technologies in the past  century, on the basis of what they were good at in  their "traditional system".  Activities which are  closely associated with the land such as commercial  fishing and harvesting of trees, wood working  activities and so on.  A number of people started  enterprises at various times such as sawmills, which 1194?  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 were variously successful until they ran into  2 competition with large-scale production and didn't  3 have the capitalization to keep abreast of it.  4 Q   Now then, you say that:  5  6 "Contemporary enterprises, which are larger in  7 scale and sometimes are organized at band level,  8 like the present logging and sawmill venture at  9 Moricetown, are conducted in what I would call the  10 subsistence sector."  11  12 And I would like you here to explain what you mean  13 by the "subsistence sector" and why you say that?  14 A   I call it subsistence because the whole thinking of  15 the band in such enterprises is that it provides a  16 living.  They're not going into it to make a profit,  17 but to provide an income for paying the grocery bills,  18 nothing beyond that.  And, of course, every enterprise  19 must turn a profit if it's to stay in business in the  20 market economy, but the profit taking they see as  21 merely a survival so you can buy your groceries and  22 keep abreast of your basic subsistence.  23 Q   Is that -- I take it you would agree that to an  24 outsider observing the Moricetown sawmill, for  25 example, the example you've used, it would look like  26 it was participating in the market economy?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Okay.  Now, is this explanation of what you mean by  29 "subsistence sector", is that what you are using as  30 the distinction between the market economy and the  31 subsistence economy?  32 A   Subsistence in anthropology, it's not a pejorative  33 word about how poverty-stricken people are, it refers  34 to producing your material goods which are needed for  35 immediate consumption or for your immediate material  36 needs, not for any use in terms of trade and expansion  37 of your values through exchange in a market.  38 Q   And you elaborate on this concept of the market --  3 9 A   I do.  40 Q   -- economy later in your report in sections on trade  41 and creation of surplus?  42 A   The -- do you want to talk about the Moricetown  43 example now or deal with that later?  44 Q   We can deal with it later.  But you do expand on this,  45 what you said, later?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Did you see -- just referring back to one comment that 11949  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 I made about the -- did you -- well, I'll leave it,  2 I'm going to come back to it later.  3 I would like to go to page 112 and 113 of your  4 report now, your opinion here.  The facts you state at  5 the sixth line down on page 112:  6  7 "The Wet'suwet'en elders —"  8  9 You are talking about wage-labour work here.  10  11 "-- see this transaction not as a matter of market  12 convertibility of values, but rather a question of  13 gift-giving."  14  15 And you've just referred to that.  Then you go on to  16 the next paragraph:  17  18 "Cash, in the Wet'suwet'en as well as  19 Gitksan society possesses less fluidity, has fewer  20 avenues of exchangeability than it does in the  21 surrounding Canadian society."  22  23 Why do you say that?  24 A   I gave an example of that too.  The money that comes  25 into the kinship system, it doesn't bother people very  26 much where it comes from, although I shouldn't say --  27 that's not correct either.  It does bother people  28 where it comes from, but they expect it to be  29 associated with the land and with producing on the  30 land.  And also, the money that comes out of that  31 feasting system doesn't have a right to go back into  32 the general circulation which can be used for a  33 variety of things in the community, it is reserved for  34 keeping up the name of that kinship grouping.  35 Q   Okay.  Now, you go on to say, and I'll skip the next  36 sentence because you've already explained that earlier  37 in answer to his lordship's question about the wage-  38 labouring job, and you say:  39  40 "On the basis of Alfred Joseph's evidence, I  41 understand this to be his thinking when, on p.  42 1623 (Vol. 24), line 18-19, he said that the pay a  43 Wet'suwet'en worker receives is 'money or  44 something you will use in the future'.  Alfred  45 explained how his Gitdumden clan leaders assessed  46 a particular person who might succeed to a chiefly  47 name.  The person:" 11950  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2 And then you quote:  3  4 "'has been living at Houston for most of his  5 adult life, he is -- seems to be out of  6 sight to the chiefs, but they know, they  7 know that he is a steady worker.  He's been  8 working for maybe the same company over all  9 these years.  But yet when there is a feast  10 on, he comes and makes his contribution; his  11 children come, make their contribution to  12 their clan.  So even though they don't see  13 Russell, they knew that the qualities that  14 were needed were there.  He was using it in  15 a different way, yet it was visible to the  16 chiefs."  17  18 Then you go on to say:  19  20 "What this man has been using in a different  21 way is his chiefly qualities of hard work and  22 responsibility.  Yet he has continued to fulfil  23 his Wet'suwet'en obligations to use the money he  24 obtains from selling his labour not only to  25 support his family but also to maintain his ties  26 in the original community, contribute to the  27 system of feasting which knits the community  28 together, and continue to raise his children in  29 the feasting tradition."  30  31 Now, can you explain the basis on which you formed  32 the opinion after that quote?  I mean why do you come  33 to that opinion from your --  34 A   I come to that opinion from the general discussions I  35 have -- I had in the community, and it seemed to me  36 this was a perfect example of it when I was reading  37 the transcript of what some of the chiefs had said on  38 the stand.  And in that -- the extended passage, as I  39 recall it, Mr. Joseph was talking about the various  40 qualities of a chief, and he took as an example  41 someone who is not living within the community of  42 Moricetown but still maintaining his obligations  43 there.  So he was a possible successor to a chiefly  44 name and he was on the short list, if you like, at  45 this point in time because of his -- the way he had  46 trained his children, the way he behaved, and the way  47 he funneled a significant portion of his wage labour, 11951  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 income, back into the Moricetown feasting.  2 Q   Okay.  Why -- and you've referred to that example, and  3 is that conclusion you make based upon your own area  4 of expertise as an anthropologist, that is, the  5 conclusions after the quote?  6 A   Yes it is, yes.  7 Q   I would like to go to page 116.  You state at the  8 beginning of that page:  9  10 "Given the modifications which recent  11 history has made to the feasting system, and given  12 the limited economic opportunities people face  13 today, there is a high correspondence between the  14 logic and practice of feast gift-giving at  15 contact, and in the present day."  16  17 And this is your opinion?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Why -- can you explain why you came to that opinion or  20 that conclusion?  21 A  Well, in the earliest records, written records,  22 feasting is described -- the importance of it to the  23 community, it was still in existence when I was there,  24 it was the major thing which was raised whenever I  25 discussed the whole question of the economy and social  26 relations and the ongoing nature of the culture of the  27 peoples with who I was working.  28 Q   And you go on to state there that, in the second  29 paragraph on 116:  30  31 "Social, economic and creative pursuits are  32 not separable and unique to themselves in the  33 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en mixed economy, especially  34 in matters centering upon the basic subsistence  35 sector.  These matters are integral facets of the  36 seasonal round carried out by people working and  37 exchanging goods and services on the basis of  38 their ties of kinship.  There is an immediacy to  39 the economy because it is relatively small-scale  40 and interpersonal, a feature of the local economy  41 which persists to the present.  All of the  42 participants are known by name to one another.  43 They are all aware of their structural position in  44 the kinship system vis-a-vis one another, and see  45 the results of their own productive activities  46 upon everyone's family life in the community.  47 "Even the most apparently urbanized members 11952  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 of Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en society retain their  2 involvement in subsistence activities associated  3 with salmon, hunting, and berries."  4  5 And can you expand on why you came to those  6 conclusions?  7 A   Yes.  I was wondering to what extent people to be --  8 who live apparently very modern, urban type of  9 existence, depended on the produce from their lands,  10 particularly fish and meat and berries.  11 Q   Yes?  12 A   So I inquired from members of various families and I  13 inquired in the -- among the clerical staff at the  14 tribal council office in Hazelton.  15 Q   Okay.  16 A  And on the basis of what I learned in those families  17 and in the tribal council coffee room over several  18 sessions, I came to these conclusions.  19 Q   Did you observe this yourself when you visited  20 peoples' homes?  21 A   Oh yes.  Not just the homes but in the feast too.  22 Q   Well, did you have meals in peoples' homes?  23 A   Yes, I had meals.  I managed -- I enjoyed not only  24 local produce but also traditional foods from the  25 coast which are highly valued in the Gitksan-  26 Wet'suwet'en areas, things such as dried seaweed and  27 herring eggs, oolichan, dried oolichans.  28 Q   Were these kinds of foods that you just mentioned from  29 the coast, were they brought out when you had them in  30 peoples' homes, not in the feast?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Were they brought out on a special occasion or were  33 these --  34 A   Yes.  Once was in honour of my birthday.  35 Q   Okay.  You say on page 118, Dr. Daly, half-way down  36 you say:  37  38 "Country foods may not at all times be a major  39 source of food for all families, but they are  40 regarded by Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en as 'real  41 food', and in times of crisis, unemployment and  42 special need, family members return to the land,  43 hunting, fishing and gathering foodstuffs."  44  45 Can you --  46 A   Real food —  47 Q   -- expand on why you've concluded that? 11953  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A  Well, "real food" is the term that several people use  2 when they explain that it's the best thing that you  3 can eat and it's even -- if you can't have it every  4 day, it's certainly something you want for special  5 occasions and you feel better when you are eating  6 "real food" which is salmon and wild game and the  7 berries which they quite often, these days, mix with  8 domesticated fruits, and that's an integral part of  9 all the feasting foods as well.  10 Q   Do you know -- did you observe examples of persons who  11 were fully employed, say, at the sawmill or otherwise,  12 who still engage as a major part of their food --  13 collection of food or gathering of food, in using what  14 you describe as "real food", food from the land?  15 A   Oh yes.  One example of a Hagwilget Wet'suwet'en  16 family where the husband is fully employed and yet  17 they exist mostly from the land.  They prefer it and  18 due to health problems in the family they feel much  19 better when they -- and they run into contradictions  20 with game laws and so on because they rely on it more  21 than the law allows.  And there are -- you can go into  22 the house of a native executive and generally, if you  23 walk in the door, there is someone cooking fish.  And  24 these are people who are highly "acculturated" to the  25 European or the Canadian ways, but it's the preferred  26 foodstuff.  27 Q   I would like to move to the next section of this  28 chapter, the "Kinship Production Units".  And I would  29 like to refer you to the first paragraph on page 119,  30 and then I'm going to read two excerpts at one time  31 and then ask you to comment or expand on them.  32 You state there that:  33  34 "In Canadian society the basic social unit  35 that carries out economic activities --"  36  37 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant, is it necessary for you to read all these  38 passages or --  39 MR. GRANT:  Well, I'm only, my lord, referring to those  40 passages.  41 THE COURT:  Yes.  But can't you direct the attention of the  42 witness to the paragraph and he can quickly read it?  43 I don't want to interfere with what you are doing, but  44 it seems to me it takes a long time for you to read a  45 paragraph when we can all read it.  46 MR. GRANT:  Well, as long as it's satisfactory to your lordship  47 that I refer to those paragraphs and I don't -- 11954  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 THE COURT:  I'm sure that would be satisfactory.  2 MR. GRANT:  3 Q   Okay.  I would like you just, if you can take a  4 moment, to refer to that first paragraph on page 119,  5 and then I would like you to refer to the paragraph on  6 page 120, the middle paragraph there.  7 And specifically, on that paragraph on page 120,  8 if I could just refer you to the last few sentences  9 there where it starts -- and I'll just refer you to  10 them and my question will lead right out of those two  11 sentences:  12  13 "In a kinship economy and society these  14 relationships --"  15  16 Which you describe above,  17  18 "-- occur between the set of kin and in-laws with  19 whom each actor regularly interact.  These  20 relatives are bound together by virtue of their  21 marriage and family relations and by a formal body  22 of rights, at the core of which are rights  23 involving land use, management and  24 proprietorship."  25  26 And I would like you to explain or amplify why you  27 came to that specific conclusion or opinion?  28 A   I'm having trouble thinking on my feet, so to speak.  29 I usually think at the computer.  30 Q   Well, it flows out of the earlier part of the  31 paragraph.  I just wanted to highlight that point for  32 you.  I mean which groups are you referring to with  33 respect to the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en there when you  34 say:  35  36 "...these relationships occur between the set of  37 kin and in-laws with whom each actor --"  38  39 I guess that's each individual.  40  41 "-- regularly interacts."  42  43 Which groups are you referring to?  44 A  Which -- I'm sorry, I'm lost.  45 Q   Okay.  46 THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Grant, maybe I shouldn't have stopped you  47 from reading it.  But I really don't understand what 11955  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 you want the witness to say about this paragraph.  It  2 seems to me to be clear what it says.  I have no  3 difficulty following what it says.  4 MR. GRANT:  Well, I'm going to proceed to the -- just a moment,  5 my lord.  6 THE COURT:  I take it back, Mr. Grant, if you want to read the  7 paragraphs, you go ahead.  8 MR. GRANT:  I appreciated your -- it's a question of jumping  9 from one method.  10 THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry I can't concentrate and work faster on  11 this.  12 MR. GRANT:  13 Q   It's okay.  I'm going to refer you to the end of this  14 section at this point, and I would like to refer you  15 to the conclusions on page 145 and 146.  I'll be  16 coming back to other parts of it, but I would like to  17 just ask you about this as it seems to, in some sense,  18 synopsize what you are referring to in "Kinship  19 Production Units" section.  Do you have the page, 145?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   You start there:  22  23 "Today, as in the past, the way material  24 well-being is pursued, the production activity on  25 the land, the river, or even the sea coast, is  26 highly flexible, yet the product of these  27 endeavours, converted into money, is exchanged  28 reciprocally within the community in such a manner  29 as to continue to legitimate the Gitksan and  30 Wet'suwet'en system of territorial ownership and  31 succession to positions of authority.  The House  32 group, through the persons of its chief and senior  33 matrons who, in practice are the most  34 authoritative members of the group, ensures that a  35 substantial portion of House members' income from  36 small enterprises and wage labour is devoted to  37 the proper conduct of House affairs."  38  39 You go on to say:  40  41 "Simultaneously, the House ensures that  42 those who are engaged in production activities on  43 the land and along the rivers will produce enough  44 country foods to satisfy the demands of the whole  45 House group, including those who are elderly, or  4 6 who are absent from the home region.  The  47 matrilineal kinship links and the ties to the 11956  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 father's family today provide a network of access  2 to jobs in the local wage labour field - which is  3 part of the market sector of the mixed economy.  4 Kinship links are also utilized by those who move  5 to other centres for work opportunities.  All of  6 these kinship links are publicly recognized and  7 reviewed in the feast hall when gifts are given  8 between the various Houses."  9  10 Now, does that statement on those two pages in  11 that -- in those statements, are you -- is that a  12 synopsis of the -- of what you are explaining with  13 respect to the kinship production units?  14 A   Yes.  I see the kinship production units as extending  15 to wherever the members happen to be living and  16 working because they are -- so long as they are  17 attached to the grouping through the feasting -- some  18 people break -- apparently break ties with their  19 community altogether, but at the time of death, their  20 remains are returned to the area, they are  21 incorporated into the system, the funeral is held, the  22 payments are made by the father's side, and the  23 relationship between their own house group and clan  24 and the side of their father is all settled.  The  25 housekeeping is done for that person even if they have  26 not been an active member.  But a lot of people live  27 outside the area and receive smoked meat or smoked  28 fish or canned salmon or berries from the Gitksan and  29 Wet'suwet'en areas, even if they live as far away as  30 Edmonton or Seattle or Prince George.  31 Q   And you've observed that?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And seen people coming from those areas?  34 A   I have and I've heard people talking -- or talking on  35 the phone, getting people mobilized because a feast is  36 coming.  They may want some cut-rate goods from  37 Seattle for a feast in return for all of the salmon  38 they have been receiving over the last few years.  39 Q   Now on page 126, you refer to -- just the top sentence  40 there:  41  42 "The Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en maintain that  43 one ought to spend one's adult life in proximity  44 and social interaction with one's House people.  45 They also follow a practice whereby many women  46 live after marriage with their husband's people.  47 In the latter situation the children are raised in 11957  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  relation to their father's land rather than that  of their maternal uncle's."  Can you recall any examples of that, that  exemplify what you are explaining there?  A   One example is James Morrison who was raised on his  father's lands in the area of Kisgegas whereas he  inherits in Kitwancool.  And I know the same thing  pertains to the children -- the sons of Robert  Jackson.  Q   That's Robert Jackson Senior?  A   Robert Jackson Senior, Xsim Git Giigeenix.  I don't  know if we should --  Q   X-S-I-M-G-I-T-G-I-I-G-E-E-N-I-X.  A   He has trained his sons on his lands around Kisgegas,  the frog clan lands, and they have a right to use  those lands as amnigwootxw, the rights through the  father's side during his life time.  But they actually  inherit down in the area of the Seven Sisters in the  Skeena River through their mother's side.  Q   Did you travel up to the Kisgegas area with Mr.  Jackson?  Yes.  He is one of the sons of Vince Jackson Senior.  And observe him fishing at Kisgegas?  Yes.  While I was there some other people came from  Hagwilget and asked permission to use the fishing  site.  Were they related to --  They weren't related to anybody in the area, and he  said, "Well, I can't give you permission because this  isn't my site, this is my father's site.  You better  go and talk to those folks up on the hill because they  actually belong here," and I observed that myself.  MR. GRANT:  My lord, I should just say that I want to be clear  that some of these -- of course something like the  reference the witness has just said, and I say that an  expert witness, just like any other witness, can give  evidence of personal observations, and of course it's  not a question of that statement, for example, being  adduced for the truth of it, but for the fact that it  was said by Vince Jackson to these third parties and  that this witness observed it, that that event  occurred.  And I want to be clear that not all of  these statements are being adduced for the truth of  them, but for the fact that they are said.  THE COURT:  Well, it certainly doesn't offend the hearsay rule,  as far as I can make out, for him to say, "I was  A  Q  A  Q  A 1195?  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  MR.  GRANT  5  THE  COURT  6  7  MR.  GRANT  8  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  GRANT  11  12  13  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  GRANT  16  Q  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  A  present and I observed that this thing happened."  He  is not proving something on the say so of an absent  person.  :  Right.  :  I didn't hear any objection nor do I think one could  properly be made.  :  Right.  I just want to be clear because my friend  painted a brush --  :  I think counsel doth protest too much.  :  That's fine, I won't interject.  Now, my lord, I'm going to -- Dr. Daly has put  in, on pages 128 to 131, an example, and on reviewing  this example, it's hard to follow it --  :  Where is this?  Page 128 to 131, and I'm going to just -- what I'm  going to elicit, I'm going to -- my friend can object  if he wants, I'm leading, but I think I will -- I want  to just get the key facts there that are buried within  this .  Now, this example is an example of Alfred  Mitchell?  Yes.  Is that right?  And with respect to Alfred Mitchell,  you, prior to completion of this final report, you  reviewed his evidence?  I did.  And then he talked about places -- his relationships  and he also talked about places he hunted?  He is one of the leading hunters in the Wet'suwet'en  territories and has hunted in many areas and I wanted  to examine all the places he hunted in relation to who  he was -- how he was related to the people who -- on  whose territories he was a guest or had been  hunting -- or those he went hunting with on other  territories.  Okay.  And then you -- you looked at what he said and  then you compared them with what houses those people  belonged to?  Yes.  And I checked the genealogical charts.  Okay.  Now, Alfred Mitchell, in terms of his  relations, his mother was from which house, do you  recall?  She was, I believe, from the House of Wiiseeks in  Kispiox.  Okay.  So that's the house he himself belonged to?  Yes, a Gitksan house. 11959  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   And his father was from the House of Namox?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   His father remarried, and his step-mother was from the  4 House of Spookw?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And his step-mother's father was a Laksilyu chief?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And Spookw, that's a Gitksan house?  9 A   That's correct.  10 Q   And then he married and his wife was from the House of  11 Hag wii negh?  12 A   That's right.  13 Q   And his wife's father was from the House of Madeek?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   Okay.  Now you then went -- go on in your explanation  16 to review what territory he used, and you refer to the  17 fact that he used the territory of Hag wii negh,  18 Namox, and Wah Tah K'eght?  19 A   Yes.  2 0 Q   Wah Tah K'eght's, yes.  Now, why would -- and Hag wii  21 negh, of course, is from his -- from his wife's house,  22 Namox?  23 A   From his father.  24 Q   From his father.  And Wah Tah K'eght was the spouse --  25 was -- because he went there with Madeek whose  26 sister-in-law was from that house?  27 A   That's correct.  28 Q   Now, having set out all that, and also you describe  2 9 that Pete Muldoe who was from -- Pete Muldoe was from  30 Gitludahl's house?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   But he is closely related to Wiiseeks?  33 A   He was -- he was Wiiseeks before he became Gitludahl.  34 Q   And Pete Muldoe used Namox's territory?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Okay.  Now, from this scenario of the relationships of  37 the Alfred Mitchell that I've just summarized and you  38 describe in pages 128 to 131, and the territories that  39 he used and the territories that -- and the people  40 that he went out with on those territories, such as  41 George Naziel, the former Madeek, and Pete Muldoe,  42 what opinions or conclusions did you formulate with  43 respect to the connection between the kinship and the  44 territories?  45 A  Well, he certainly wasn't a trespasser because he was  46 linked through blood or marriage one way or another  47 with everybody he hunted with, or on each of the lands 11960  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  that he used and uses today.  Q   Then at the bottom --  A   I think it also reflects the close relations between  the father's side and mother's side in an  on-the-ground or on-the-land way.  Q   And you go on to state -- you state at the bottom of  page 131, that last full sentence:  "These then, are some of the inter-House and  inter-clan links exhibited in the use of these  sites for hunting mountain goat and ground-hog in  Wah Tah K'eght territory."  And you are referring to those --  A   Yes.  Q   -- and also the other territories as well?  WILLMS:  My lord, I -- I'm not clear on what the witness  means by the "Wah Tah K'eght territory".  I mean is he  just referring to something that somebody has told him  about or is he referring to a particular boundary  area?  It's certainly not clear from the opinion.  I'm  sure it's not the latter, but it would be helpful if  the witness would clear that up.  MR.  MR.  GRANT:  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  THE COURT  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Yeah, okay.  Well, I have to go back and review the transcript and  see which of the Wah Tah K'eght territories is  specifically referred to there, but it's one of the  chief territories.  This is one of the territories described by Mr.  Mitchell in his evidence that you are referring to?  In his evidence, yes.  And similarly with the other territories?  Yes.  If I recall rightly, Mr. Mitchell did a territorial  affidavit as well, my lord, I believe.  I may be  wrong.  He had the territory of Moricetown but he turned  part of it over to -- was it Basil Michell?  Mr. Mitchell was from --  I don't think he turned it over to Mr. Mitchell.  No.  The territory at Moricetown was the Wah Tah  K'eght territory that he used.  Yes.  And then he -- I didn't lead his evidence, I'm just  trying to recall.  Then he had -- of course, he  himself didn't have a territory because he is a 11961  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  Gitksan.  WITNESS:  He is not from the Moricetown area.  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  Q  A  Q  Mr. Mitchell isn't from that area.  Right.  That's right.  I remember his evidence with some  generality, he hunted all over the place and even Mrs.  Holland asked him to come down and hunt on her  territory as well.  Yes, I think an elderly lady.  Florence Holland, as I recall.  Florence Hall.  Holland maybe?  Might have been Florence Hall.  Florence Hall, yeah.  She gave commission evidence.  There was a Mrs. Holland but I think she passed away.  I would like to refer you now to page 136.  Well,  just going back to page 135 and I'll only read the  first sentence there.  This is where you deal, if I  may say, it's not subheaded but it appears to deal  with the concept of moveable property.  Just like to  briefly allude to it.  You start by saying:  "Today, thousands more people have come to  live in the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en territories,  bringing a different economic order and type of  social organization with them.  This different  order has caused changes to the social and  economic structure of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  life.  The people now live in smaller residential  units, though the actual composition of membership  of these units varies considerably.  Family  members still live relatively close to one another  and family ties remain strong.  The communities  keep up relations even with members who move away,  so long as these persons honour their obligations  to their families, the home area and important  feasts."  Then you say:  "People still relate with one another  interpersonally, on the basis of kinship and  inter-affiliation --"  "In-law affiliation."  "-- and in law affiliation," yes. 11962  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 "In the course of a year, they use the land and  2 they fish the rivers, they engage in wage labour  3 and small business activities, yet they utilize a  4 portion of the fruits of this wage labour work and  5 small enterprise activity to the maintenance of  6 the indigenous system of House group collective  7 ownership."  8  9 Now then, the reason I led that, that leads to the  10 next point which I want you to explain.  You say,  11 referring to house group collective ownership:  12  13 "This is not to say that a man's House owns  14 his gillnetter, store or sawmill, but rather that  15 the House, at times of feast-holding, has the  16 right, through the person of its chief, to ensure  17 that a substantial portion of the income from the  18 wage occupation or the enterprise be devoted to  19 the proper conduct of House affairs, and  20 particularly to feasting obligations which centre  21 upon the management of the territories and the  22 proper conduct of marriages, births, deaths and  23 successions."  24  25 Now, I would like you to explain why you came to  26 that conclusion in your explanation of the house group  27 collective ownership and the dealing with the  28 gillnetter, store and sawmill?  29 A  Well, I wanted to make it clear that because someone  30 was a chief of a house and he may own -- he may own an  31 enterprise such as a fishboat or a sawmill, this was  32 still held as individual property which is consistent  33 with the Canadian law, as I understand it, and  34 certainly with the Gitksan law, the Wet'suwet'en law.  35 However, the use to which it is put by this individual  36 is constrained by his standing in the kinship system.  37 He must flow a lot of the values that he achieves  38 through the use of this enterprise back into his  39 kinship system to maintain his position.  He must  40 satisfy the basic needs of his members or he is not --  41 politically he is not being a very good chief.  So he  42 engages in a variety of activities in terms of the  43 local band council as well as the cash economy to  44 satisfy all the various needs of his people.  45 And a significant portion of these incomes from  46 these ventures goes into the -- into the feasting, and  47 certain people work extra hard in those years when 11963  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 they are -- they feel they're socially indebted  2 because they have had a number of funerals in their  3 family and they haven't paid off all those debts to  4 the father's side, and they work -- they may work  5 extra shifts in the mill or engage in extra fishing  6 activities as well as finding positions for other  7 members of their house to assist the flow of values  8 into their coffers to prepare for the next feast  9 payback and get out of debt.  10 Q   Do you recall while you were in the area, that there  11 was any particular house that was faced with an  12 extraordinary or large number of debts?  13 A  Well, the first example I came face-to-face with was  14 the House of Tenimgyet, Axtii Hiikw.  The previous  15 Axtii Hiikw, Jeffery Morgan, had died and the funeral  16 feast, of course, was held shortly after his death.  17 But all the -- it happened in a -- very suddenly and  18 in the fishing season, and they -- the family wasn't  19 able to mobilize all its resources and all its members  20 at such short notice so they had to borrow funds and  21 they owed -- they owed favours and they owed expense  22 money from the funeral and so on to their father's  23 side.  And they didn't want to be indebted, they  24 worked like crazy to prepare for the headstone raising  25 feast which is usually held about a year later in  26 order to get out of debt, and this -- they volunteered  27 this information.  It's reflected in the interviews  2 8 with Art Mathews and his family.  29 Q   Okay.  30 THE COURT:  Take the afternoon adjournment now, please.  31 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  32  33 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:00 p.m.)  34  35 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  36 a true and accurate transcript of the  37 proceedings herein transcribed to the  38 best of my skill and ability.  39  40  41  42  43 Toni Kerekes,  44 O.R., R.P.R.  45 United Reporting Service Ltd.  46  47 11964  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS)  THE COURT:  Mr. Grant.  MR. GRANT:  Q   Now, going on to page 137, Dr. Daly, of your report.  You state that -- you state as follows;  "The conduct of marriages is one of the most  important aspects of managing a kinship  production unit because, as one of the  leading kinship scholars of Britain, Meyer  Fortes explains:  '...in a homogeneous society there is  nothing which could so precisely and  incontrovertibly fix one's place in society  as parentage.'  Fortes' statement has two important  implications.  First, children are the  source of the expanding fortunes of the  House group as much as is territory.  Consequently, control of the labour and the  offspring of the daughters of the House, not  matter where they are living, ensures a  definite continuity to the Gitksan and  Wet'suwet'en social systems."  Does this opinion apply to the Gitksan and  Wet'suwet'en today, in your view?  It does.  It's a common feature of many of the  societies anthropologists study.  In my opinion it  prevails today in the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en.  What's a homogeneous society?  I didn't hear what you said.  In the quotation it says "in a homogeneous society".  Right.  What is a homogeneous society?  Is that the opposite  of --no.  I wouldn't think it would be opposite of  anything.  In the quotation --  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  A  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT:  Q  A  THE COURT  What is meant by homogeneous society?  It's a society without classes, a society without  subordinate ethnic groupings, and so on.  You have one  set of -- one quality of social relations.  Commonly  called a classless society.  Well, are the Gitksans a classless society with 11965  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  their chiefs and wings of chiefs included there?  A   Those aren't classes.  In my estimation it's part of a  social -- they aren't distilled into distinct classes  such as serfs and land owners in a feudal type of  situation, or slave owners and slaves in a full slave  society such as ancient Greece.  THE COURT:  We heard some evidence about not slaves, about  classes of society in the Gitksan.  A   Yeah.  I think it's a question of terminology.  I talk  about it in the course of my report.  THE COURT:  All right.  You said without classes or subordinate  what?  A   Ethnic groupings.  For instance, Canada includes the  Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en societies, but the Gitksan  and Wet'suwet'en societies don't include any other.  THE COURT:  So homogeneous is opposite to pluralistic, as I was  about to suggest?  A   Yes.  Yes.  THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  MR. GRANT:  Q   Now, you go on to describe how;  "Parental or House clan selection of  marriage partners is no longer the norm,  though considerable social pressure is  exerted on young people to observe the rule  of exogamy."  Did you see evidence of that in your research?  A   I did.  Sometimes it was at the level of comments by  young people that they're very interested in a certain  young lady, but she is from -- I can't marry her.  I  can't even ask her out for a date, because we're in  the same clan.  In the informal interaction this is  part of day-to-day concerns of young people.  Q   Thank you.  MR. WILLMS:  I might have missed that.  Did group mean clan?  I  thought that's what the witness said, but I might have  missed that.  MR. GRANT:  Yeah.  Q   You say -- it says;  "Parental or House clan selection of  marriage partners is no longer the norm,  though considerable social pressure is  exerted on young people to observe the rule  of exogamy (marrying outside of one's 11966  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 group), to marry into a different clan."  2  3 When you say "marrying outside of one's group" in  4 that sense --  5 A   I'm referring to clan, yes.  6 Q   Okay.  Now, I go on to page 138.  You refer at the top  7 of the page;  8  9 "If the daughters marry outside the local  10 area, their children continue to be ascribed  11 House membership and often House names."  12  13 Have you seen examples of children from outside  14 the area being assigned house names?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And I'd like to go on to the next --  17 A  Well, one example would be the grandchildren of Mary  18 McKenzie.  They have names and they live, I believe,  19 in Surrey and somewhere, I believe, in the Lower  20 Mainland here.  21 Q   I'd like to go on to -- to the next paragraph where  22 you refer to adaawks.  Well, you refer to oral  23 histories and then adaawks.  You say;  24  25 "That the children inherit through the  26 mothers is attested to in the oral histories  27 where there are many accounts of women of  28 chiefly lineage being kidnapped or married  29 away at a great distance, such as the  30 adaawks of Nekt's mother in which the  31 Frog-Raven chief's niece is carried off  32 during a raid and married to a Haida prince.  33 Because she knows her children will have no  34 standing and no respect in this nation since  35 they derive their status from her bloodline,  36 she kills her husband, cuts out his tongue  37 and stuffs it in the mouth of her infant  38 son, Nekt, so as to make a silent escape.  39 Today's situation is similar, although  40 ladies are not kidnapped and tongues are not  41 sliced out at the present time."  42  43 What I want to -- I'd like you to explain what you  44 mean when you say "today's situation is similar"?  45 A  Well, before doing that I should say this is a bit  46 unfair to the lady concerned, because her husband was  47 systematically killing all the male sons, or male 11967  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  children that she was bearing up to this point, and  she hid this child and then killed him.  Today's  situation is similar.  Q   And you, of course, are starting there?  A  What I mean is when an out -- when a Wet'suwet'en man  or Gitksan man marries an outsider from another band  or tribe or from the non-native world the system is  such that the woman that's marrying in has to be  adopted, and she is always adopted as far as I know.  In all the examples I know she is always adopted into  the father's side of her spouse so that her children  gain citizenship, if you like, to the Gitksan or  Wet'suwet'en society, because of the matrilineal  inheritance, and by being as described to the father's  side it carries on this preferred marriage  arrangements between the ongoing nature of two houses.  MR. GRANT:  Thank you.  My lord, I'm not going to refer to  anything from pages 139 to 141, the bottom paragraph,  because I think it was dealt with. It's similar  evidence as was dealt with as by Ms. Harris, although  it's evidence obtained independently by this witness,  as I understand. And on page 141 through to page 144  deals with the feast, which is a section of the report  that I'll come back to, and may refer to that then.  Q   Page 144, Dr. Daly.  The last sentence of the middle  paragraph you say;  "The utilization of many House territories  is partially in abeyance at the present time  due to the fact that House lands are being  utilized more and more by outsiders."  Now, from your opinion has that -- what effect, if  any, has that had on the social structure and the  economic system structure of the Gitksan and the  Wet'suwet'en?  MR. WILLMS:  My lord, I object.  I'd like the factual foundation  for that led.  That's just too amorphous for any  opinion to be based on.  THE COURT:  Yes.  I think it should be made more specific,  please.  MR. GRANT:  Okay.  The statement —  Q   Yes.  Can you explain why you make that statement  first?  I mean, on what basis do you find that the  utilization of many house territories is partially in  abeyance at the present time due to the fact the house  lands are being utilized more and more by outsiders? 1196?  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A  Well, it's a fact that there is a considerable amount  2 of settlement in the river valleys of the Gitksan and  3 Wet'suwet'en territories, and that various fishing  4 locations such as the fishing sites for the whole of  5 Hagwilget no longer exist, because the river is being  6 used for other concerns than the native fishery.  And  7 these things put stresses and strains on the social  8 relations, because there is a shortage of access, or  9 shortage of access to resources and materials that the  10 people consider necessary to the maintenance of their  11 way of life.  So they are -- there are charges of  12 trespassing on especially with regard to fishing  13 sites.  And people who find it important and necessary  14 to rely on the land today for their income and their  15 standing in the community they have a harder time  16 trying to make ends meet, but many of them still try  17 to -- around the edges of the clear cuts they're still  18 trying to find a place to put their traps, for  19 example.  So the system -- I'm saying the system is  20 going on, but it's under a considerable amount of  21 pressure and duress, as we all know.  22 Q   Now, what effect has that duress had on the social  23 structure or the economic structure of the Gitksan and  24 Wet'suwet'en?  I know you combine social and economic  25 together.  26 A  Well, in terms of the feasting it means that  27 certain -- to a certain degree the -- the transactions  28 are symbolic of the -- of the land use.  Whereas in  29 the past it was possible to obtain enough moose hides  30 and beaver to satisfy all your guests and show the  31 wealth and strength of your land, the wealth and  32 strength of the house group is now a combination of  33 what you can get from your land and what you get from  34 the rest of the economy.  So people will come in and  35 maybe hold up money saying this stands for the beaver  36 from our land.  That sort of thing, you see.  37 MR. GRANT:  Now, I've already referred your lordship to page 145  38 and 146, and maybe I'll refer you to 147.  This is a  39 section on circulation of goods and services.  40 Q   And you state at the very beginning there, the first  41 sentence;  42  43 "The exchange and distribution system is an  44 important feature of any economy."  45  4 6 And then you state;  47 11969  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 "In economies that are highly market  2 oriented, the form of circulation of valued  3 goods and services is usually regarded as  4 the leading factor involved in determining  5 not just the exchange features of the  6 economy, but as well, the nature of  7 production and consumption.  8  9 In subsisting economies, the circulation of  10 goods is predicated upon equitable exchange,  11 where goods are valued primarily for their  12 consumption use, for the assistance they can  13 provide the people in their basic production  14 activities."  15  16 A   This is another way of stating what we've already --  17 I've tried to explain the nature of evaluation of  18 goods and services for their use as opposed to their  19 marketability, their exchange, their convertability  20 and fluidity in the market system.  21 Q   And then you go on to say, and this is in the second  22 paragraph, the first paragraph on page 147;  23  24 "The exchange of goods and services is also  25 linked to the system of authority and  26 decision-making.  In a kinship society the  27 implementation of decisions and the  28 consolidation of authority and influence  29 cannot be effected without the liberal  30 giving of gifts, the provision of  31 hospitality, and subsequent repayment."  32  33 My question to you with respect to that sentence,  34 the second statement you made, why cannot the  35 implementation of decisions and consolidation of  36 authority and influence be effected without the  37 liberal giving of gifts, provision of hospitality and  38 subsequent repayment?  39 A   Because the accepted way of interacting within the  40 communities is based on collective corporate kinship  41 grouping's interactions.  It's not based on buying and  42 selling of services between neighbours and between  43 people who live close to one another.  It's more --  44 more -- it's more cumbersome in a sense than our  45 system, because many other features are involved in  4 6 it. You want something done you've got to act in a  47 kindly kinship fashion in order to get it done.  You 11970  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  Q  A  GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  don't simply buy somebody's services. You make -- you  make them a gift and they make you a gift and then you  discuss what the issue is.  This has happened, the exchange of food stuffs.  My wife and I were involved in this as well in the  course of living in Hazelton.  And if we gave somebody  something, or if I treated somebody to a lunch I get  home and there would be a bucket of vegetables on the  back porch.  This sort of thing was ongoing all the  time.  And it goes on among the community members.  Is this typical of the tribal or a kinship society?  Oh, yes.  Very much so, yes.  :  Now, I'm going to come -- this section, my lord,  deals with trade and feasting which is covered in more  detail later, so I see no point in going over it.  I'd  like to refer now to the next chapter, chapter three,  Ownership and Management in a Kinship Economy.  Now,  my lord, I don't anticipate that I will complete this  chapter today.  I just want to advise your lordship  that of the evidence of chapters this will probably  take a greater deal of time, this particular area, as  it's central.  :  Which chapter are you talking about?  :  Chapter three, Ownership and Management in the  Kinship Economy.  This chapter will probably take more  time than is reflected in -- page 157.  Now, I'd like to refer you just to introduce us to  this concept, this chapter, Dr. Daly, to page 158.  And you refer to some quotes which are from two  different Gitksan chiefs, and one from the then Chief  Commissioner Joseph Trutch, but at the bottom of page  158 you then state;  "In any society the maintenance of  successful economy requires a system of  publicly sanctioned and recognized ownership  and a system of succession to the rights  embodied in that ownership.  One cannot gain  a proper understanding of the Gitksan and  Wet'suwet'en economy without examining the  issue of indigenous proprietary rights."  Then I'd like to go to page 171 and 172.  172?  Yeah.  Page 171 at the bottom.  All right. 11971  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 MR. GRANT:  2 Q   And you state;  3  4 "Property ownership entails rights by the  5 owners, to the labour and skills of other  6 persons.  On this point, with reference to  7 non-state societies, the Encyclopedia  8 Britannica states:  9  10 Property in any society is represented by  11 sets of rights that entitle the owners to  12 the services of other people.  In primitive  13 (sic) society these rights vary from  14 unconditional ownership of material objects,  15 to highly complex relationships involving  16 shared land, ritual apparatus or magic.  The  17 most important resource to any primitive  18 (sic) society is land, and problems of land  19 tenure are often complex to the western  20 observer."  21  22 Now, you go on to state your opinion with respect  23 to that.  24  25 "Subject to the important reservation of the  26 use of the word 'primitive' is unscientific  27 and ethnocentric in this context...."  28  29 You state;  30  31 "In my opinion this citation holds true for  32 the rights to the services of others, the  33 central nature of land ownership and the  34 complex nature of land tenure among the  35 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en.  What appears most  36 complex to outsiders is, perhaps, the  37 interweave of proprietorship and access to  38 territory, by means of the many-stranded  39 ties of kinship and marriage."  40  41 Now, that -- with respect to that opinion, and  42 why -- on what basis do you conclude that the central  43 nature of land ownership and complex -- that that  44 citation holds true for the rights to the central  45 nature of land ownership and land tenure among the  46 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en?  47 A   It is consistent with my understanding of these 11972  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR. GRANT  phenomenon in other societies, and it's certainly  based on the -- on what I observed and what I've read  about the -- what I've been told about the nature of  land holding among the Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en.  I went to the Encyclopedia Britannica because I had my  own anthropological concepts of land tenure and  ownership.  I wanted to get a broader view of how the  topic was discussed, that's why I cited that example.  WILLMS:  And, my lord, to that extent I object.  When you  read that chapter the witness refers in the chapter  that my friend skipped over to St. Catherine's  Milling, to Calder and the Queen, to some historical  documents where statements are made, and clearly as  the witness just said, the opinion is far beyond  anthropological opinion.  It's assessment, it's  argument, and it's findings which are the very  findings for your lordship.  And that particular  section, although I don't want to rise every time, but  that particular section is completely objectionable  for reasons that are central to this litigation.  It's  far beyond the witness' expertise anyway.  I think he  just said that.  The witness didn't just say that.  And my friend  will have ample opportunity.  I'm going to come back  and I'll tackle two of the references, at least, head  on, and be prepared to deal with them as to why the  witness has made reference to them.  What does this mean about the the right to the  services of others?  What do you mean by that?  It means you have -- ownership entails rights which  constrain or direct the use of the labour and the  services of certain other peoples.  It's intrinsic in  the nature of the -- of the authority that comes with  enjoying the privilege of holding property.  Well, in the context of the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en as  I've been listening to the witnesses they have been  saying that the chief holds the lands for the use of  the members of the house.  M'hm.  Who are entitled to use the land or not use it as  they wish, or some say that you're entitled to use it  with the permission of the chief, but I haven't heard  anyone say that the chief had the right to their  services.  Are you saying that's another feature that  I have missed?  Yes, I would say so.  In the extent that the house  members labour is constrained by the demands of the  THE COURT  A  THE COURT  A  THE COURT  A 11973  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  Q  A  Q  A  feasting.  The chief has the right to ask his or her  members to contribute to the expenses of mounting a  large feast by virtue of their activities on the land  or in the market sector.  In earlier times or in the  similar societies in other places the chief or the  leader of the kinship group has a right under  certain -- under crisis conditions to act in the very  arbitrary fashion, and all his relatives by virtue of  their kinship ties are bound to respond to his  directives such as in times of war, or times of great  ceremonial exchange with other nations.  :  Thank you.  When you describe that, Dr. Daly, about the rights of  the services to others, the question that his lordship  just asked and you explained, I believe that you said  in relation to their feast obligations the labour of  house members is constrained to the extent that they  have to contribute to feast obligations?  Yes.  Is that the scope of where the chief can refer to or  rely on the rights of the services of others, that is  his house members?  You -- there are other areas.  Well, another feature  of the same process is the concern for the fertility  of the house members, the growth of the house, the  development of the coming generations, because all the  elders will tell you that the real riches that a chief  has are the youngsters coming up, the members of the  house, because they are the ones whose training and  know how and labour will -- can either raise the  standing of the house to its potential lustre or let  it fall, and if you don't have enough house members  then there are other people with claims who may begin  to challenge your authority.  Now, I'd like to refer you back, Dr. Daly, to page  159.  And I want to quote this because I think what my  friend -- now, I want to ask you about -- you say at  the top;  "In the past courts have exhibited at best  an imperfect understanding of such  proprietary rights and duties."  Here are you referring to, for example, the  indigenous rights and duties, the aboriginal peoples'  rights and duties within their society? 11974  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   Yes, I am.  When I began to --  2 Q   Just let me, if I can, just finish the quote and I'd  3 like you to respond.  4  5 "I say this not as hindsight criticism based  6 upon knowledge acquired subsequent to the  7 events of the past century, but rather as an  8 ethnologist who views the interaction of the  9 courts and the Native peoples as relations  10                   between two distinct cultures."  11  12 Now, maybe can you explain that, why you would  13 look to court decisions and --  14 A  Well, I had no -- no understanding of land claim  15 processes when I began this work, and I still don't  16 have very much, but one thing I did when I accepted  17 the work with the Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en was to  18 read Raunet's book on the Nishga land claim case.  19 Q   Do you recall the title of it offhand?  20 A   I can't remember, but it's -- it should be in the  21 forefront of my head.  It's quite a popular book.  And  22 as an anthropologist I was quite astounded at some of  23 the thinking that had gone into the decision making of  24 that process.  I, of course, can't criticize on the  25 basis of law, because I don't have any training there,  26 but just from the perspective of cultural comparisons  27 that some of the comments that were made were made  28 from so deeply within our European white hierarchical  29 society and its values that the -- there was no -- no  30 reaching out to try to understand a different set of  31 organizing principles, a different set of meanings.  32 That's basically all I meant there.  I referred to  33 John Boyd.  I read an article about this matter in  34 The Beaver while at the time I was writing -- writing  35 the report.  36 Q   What is The Beaver?  37 A   The Beaver is the Hudson Bay journal.  It's a magazine  38 put out monthly by the Hudson Bay Company --  39 Q   Okay.  40 A   -- Concerning the early history in the fur trade and  41 the various aspects of native and colonial life.  42 Q   Okay.  Raunet's book, that's R-A-U-N-E-T, is that  43 Without Surrender, Without Consent:  History of the  44 Nishga Land Claims?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   That's in your bibliography.  Well --  47 A   It seemed to me -- 11975  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   Is it usual, or do ethnologists -- do you know of  2 other ethnologists, for example, who would look to  3 what courts have said about aboriginal claims as part  4 of their research?  5 A  Well, there was extensive testimony in the United  6 States on land claims over the last 30 years and that  7 has been used as a basis for many ethnographic  8 accounts of the present generation.  That's one  9 example.  But there are various anthropologists who  10 have been involved one way or another in the native  11 rights issues in the courts, and they familiarize  12 themselves with some of these, the decisions that are  13 made by the courts just to see what the general  14 thinking is and how they can try to present a view  15 which may clarify the situation of the relations  16 between our culture and these cultures of the  17 aboriginal peoples.  18 Q   Now, you refer to Chancellor Boyd of Ontario and quote  19 from his decision.  Well, maybe just before going to  20 that I'll just go to that last comment on that page.  21 You say;  22  23 "In this situation it is all too easy for  24 participants to view those of the other  25 culture ethnocentrically; that is, to give  26 meaning to the lives of people in another  27 culture through the prism of one's own  28 cultural values."  29  30 That's on page 159.  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And why did you -- did you form that opinion?  On what  33 basis?  34 A   That's part of the training you get right from your  35 first lecture in anthropology, that one of the  36 greatest dangers in going out to do field work in a  37 culture which is not your own is that you begin to do  38 your work, even taking your very first notes, you do  39 it from the framework of your own culture, your own  40 categorization.  And there's a lot of discussion in  41 our discipline today about how we have to be even ever  42 more sensitized to the distinct processes of thought  43 and social interaction among the people that we're  44 studying and to try to come to some understanding of  45 its internal logic before we dive in and start  46 interpreting it.  It's part of our training.  And  47 perhaps I've been a bit overly critical here, but the 11976  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 lack of this sensitivity sometimes shows up in other  2 people from other fields and their attitude towards  3 native peoples.  4 Q   Okay.  Well, you make -- and you quote some excerpts  5 of different judges with respect to John Boyd and  6 Justice Davey and --  7 A  Well, Justice Davey was cited in Raunet's book and  8 that inspired me to look at the decisions from the  9 Supreme Court.  I wanted to see how the thing turned  10 out.  There were references to it in the book, but --  11 Q   Thank you.  And then you quote Justice Hall in the  12 Supreme Court?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And then you state at page 162 after quoting these  15 references, at the top you say;  16  17 "It is important to stress that researchers  18 working on this question seek to expand  19 knowledge of the Native social reality on  20 the basis of the most current information  21 available.  The very act of doing so  22 increases our knowledge and challenges the  23 the ethnocentric outlook of our own,  24 dominant culture."  25  26 When you refer to our knowledge are you referring  27 to the knowledge within your field or the knowledge --  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Okay.  And is that view -- is that opinion uniquely  30 your own, or is that an opinion within the field?  31 A   No.  It's quite common among anthropologists.  32 Q   Now, you go on at page 163 to refer back to Anthony  33 Wallace, and you refer to him as the man who wrote, I  34 think it's the Death and Rebirth of the Seneca was his  35 book.  You referred to him yesterday.  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And I think you also indicated that he was not only an  38 anthropologist, but also involved in psychology?  39 A   Social psychology.  40 Q   Social psychologist?  41 A   He's done a fair amount of ethnohistorical work among  42 the Delaware and Iroquois, and he's been involved in  43 the land questions -- in the land negotiations in the  44 upper New York State and Pennsylvania.  45 Q   Okay.  You state -- you quote from him, and you state  46 that without the -- just ahead of the quote.  47 11977  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 "Perhaps the best explanation of this point  2 of view has been provided by Anthony Wallace  3 who explains that Native North Americans had  4 a clear sense of territorial boundaries  5 based upon natural features such as  6 waterways and heights of land, but it was  7 not in the interests of land-hungry  8 Europeans to understand this."  9  10 I won't bother reading the quote, but you then  11 give a quotation with reference to that.  12 A  M'hm.  13 Q   You then go on to say;  14  15 "It is my opinion that at the time of  16 European contact the Gitksan and  17 Wet'suwet'en organized their lives on an  18 effective, rational and socially responsible  19 basis, even though they did not enjoy the  20 benefits of modern technology and knowhow,  21 and they lacked the hierarchical structures  22 of centralized administration upon which the  23 main Canadian society is based."  24  25 Now, with respect to that opinion I would like you  26 to -- that -- and I will go to the next part in a  2 7 moment, but can you expand on why you came -- why that  28 is your opinion?  What is the basis for that opinion?  29 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, the witness actually does that in the next  30 paragraph.  Maybe that will answer the question.  31 MR. GRANT:  I'll go on.  Yeah.  I don't want to —  32 Q   You state that;  33  34 "The aboriginal peoples lived with the  35 benefit of..."  36  37 I've just numbered on my copy;  38  39 "1.  A rational system of law and order.  40 2.  Of religion and morality.  41 3.  An orderly and publicly sanctioned  42 system of proprietorship over land, and  43 4.  Rules for the management of the  44 wealth and power contained within the  45 land.  46 Without such a system, regular social and  47 economic intercourse is not possible in any 1197?  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  THE  COURT  11  MR.  GRANT  12  THE  COURT  13  A  14  MR.  GRANT  15  Q  16  17  18  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  44  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  GRANT  47  THE  COURT  society."  Now, when you say they are the aboriginal peoples,  are you referring to all the aboriginal peoples of  Canada or Gitksan Wet'suwet'en more specifically?  More specifically to the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en.  Okay.  So that could read the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  peoples live with the benefit, et cetera?  Yes.  That's what it says at the bottom of 163.  Yes.  And your date of contact here is 1800 give or take?  Yes.  Yes.  And now what I wanted to ask is if you and -- what is  the basis for your conclusion there?  I'm sorry.  I'm  sorry.  This is where my friend refers to the  following paragraph.  You've set out in the following  paragraph the foundations for that conclusion?  Yes, yes.  You say; "This opinion is based upon available  documentary evidence of the nineteenth century."  Now,  what evidence are you referring to there?  I'm referring to the archive accounts of the nature of  the society which are inadvertently discussed or  openly discussed depending on the nature of the  documents.  Okay.  Like what do you mean when you say  inadvertently discussed or openly discussed?  Can you  give some examples of each one.  I mean sometimes there's a description of the social  relations and sometimes Daniel Harmon or William  Brown, the traders, will talk about a feature of the  economy which is jeopardizing their economic interests  and through that you get some idea of the nature of  the pre-occupations of the people with regard to  control of their land and the use of their resources,  and even they're talking about the use of resources in  feasting.  There's been a body of material drawn  together by Robert Galois.  M'hm.  He's an historian?  He's an historian.  And I believe his evidence is  going to be in this case too.  And I relied on some of  his data.  That's G-O-W?  G-A-L-O-I-S.  Galois, my lord.  Yes. 11979  R. Daly (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GRANT:  Yes.  Q   And when you say relied on his data you relied on  archival documents that he had located?  A  Archival documents which he had indicated he was  using.  Q   Not on his opinions, but on the documents.  You looked  at the documents?  A   I don't know what the opinion is, but he directed me  to certain documents.  Q   Okay.  Do you recall any of those?  A   The ones that were of interest to me I cited a few of  them; Horetsky, Poudrier, some of the surveyors from  the early part of the century, Mr. Hankin, D.I.A.  reports, as well as what people have told me, the  accounts of the chiefs.  Q   Now, if I could --  A  And general descriptions of land holding in the region  by reputable anthropologists such as Phillip Drucker.  COURT:  Do you want to adjourn?  GRANT:  I don't know if that noise suggests it.  COURT:  Yes, it did.  All right.  Ten o'clock then.  GRANT:  Maybe I can advise you tomorrow depending on how --  COURT:  I can't do it tomorrow evening.  GRANT:  Tomorrow evening is unavailable.  COURT:  Thursday is fine.  GRANT:  Thursday is fine.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This trial will adjourn until  10:00 a.m. tomorrow.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO FEBRUARY 22, 1989 AT 10:00 a.m.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Peri McHale, Official Reporter  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.

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