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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-02-09] British Columbia. Supreme Court Feb 9, 1989

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 11671  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 VANCOUVER, B.C.  2 FEBRUARY 9, 198 9  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  5 THE COURT:  Mr. Willms.  6 THE REGISTRAR:  In the Supreme Court of British Columbia,  7 Vancouver, this Thursday, February 9th, 1989.  Calling  8 the matter of Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen  9 at bar.  I caution the witness you are still under  10 oath.  11 MR. WILLMS:  My Lord, I am not going to attempt to get those  12 three documents back in order again.  I am going to  13 deal with it in a different way.  14 THE COURT:  Thank you.  15 MR. WILLMS:  So perhaps the witness could have Exhibit 881-27,  16 which is the February 1st letter, 1987 from Dr. Rigsby  17 to Mr. Overstall.  And on the third page of that  18 letter, Dr. Kari, in handwriting at the bottom Dr.  19 Rigsby says:  20  21 "Could you see that Jim Kari gets copies of  22 these revisions and has the chance to  23 comment on them and add to them please."  24  25 If there are any comments or your comments on the  26 revisions, they would show up on the documents that  27 you disclosed earlier this week, is that right, all  28 the drafts that you brought down with you?  29 A   I guess so, but I don't have any more drafts than what  30 I brought with me, and I didn't even look closely  31 through what I brought, so --  32 Q   But you don't remember writing a separate letter or  33 something like that with your comments?  34 A  A letter?  I probably did marginalia -- I mean, I  35 really -- I can't really clarify that much about the  36 dates or the times that we were revising these and  37 what shape something might have been.  I might have  38 thrown something out with handwritten marginalia that  39 got superseded by something else or -- I don't  40 think -- but go ahead.  41 Q   Do you remember after this January, February exchange  42 from Mr. Overstall to Dr. Rigsby and to yourself  43 whether -- did you have a meeting with Dr. Rigsby or  44 Mr. Overstall to finalize what the report would look  45 like, or what happened --  46 A   No, we were both in our separate respective places of  47 residence.  We haven't met since the summer of '80 -- 11672  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 what do we have.  The summer of '85 or summer of '86  2 Bruce and I were in -- working on this, so --  3 Q   The final report, which is Exhibit 877.  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   That's a report that was printed out on Mr.  6 Overstall's word processor?  7 A   Yes, they retyped things, and so --  8 Q   I am showing you a letter from Mr. Overstall to  9 yourself dated May 18th, 1987, where Mr. Overstall  10 encloses some letters, interrogatory answers,  11 submissions and trial transcripts for you.  Now, by  12 this time had your appendices been finalized, the  13 appendices to your report, or do you recall?  14 A   I am sorry, I can't answer exactly when they were  15 finalized, you know.  As far as the exact date and --  16 you know.  17 Q   I just asked that, because if you look at tab three,  18 which is Exhibit 878, you will see that the copywrite  19 reservation date on it is May 1987.  But you can't  20 recall whether or not you received this material  21 before the appendices were finalized or after?  22 A   Oh, then that must be after.  23 Q   After?  24 A   Yes, I would think so.  25 Q   There is a handwritten note at the bottom that says:  26  27 "Thanks for your note on the linguistic  28 conference.  I passed a copy onto Alfred."  29  30 First, Alfred is Alfred Joseph?  31 A   Yes, sir.  32 Q   And what linguistic conference did you pass a note  33 along on?  34 A   That would have been the Athabaskan conference in  35 Victoria in the summer of '87.  36 MR. WILLMS:   My Lord, 881-30.  37 THE COURT:  Yes.  38  39 (EXHIBIT NO. 881-30 - LETTER DATED MAY 18,  4 0 1987 FROM RICHARD OVERSTALL TO JIM KARI)  41  42 A  Alfred did not go, by the way.  43 Q   Now, I am showing you a letter dated September 19th,  44 1988 from Marvin George —  45 A   Uh-huh.  46 Q   -- to yourself.  And in that letter Mr. George refers  47 to a map.  And that is a map that you prepared or he 11673  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 prepared or who prepared it?  2 A   I prepared it and he did the calculation.  3 Q   Okay.  And in this map did you map the area of  4 Babine -- of the Babine-Wet'suwet'en language?  5 A   I gave it my best shot.  6 Q   And the note that you have made at the bottom when you  7 mapped this Babine-Wet'suwet'en language -- or this is  8 the note that Marvin George sent back to you that 56  9 percent of your mapped language area overlapped the  10 claim area in this case?  11 A   That's what he calculated.  This is 1988.  I want  12 everybody to realize this is from our dialect survey  13 this summer.  14 Q   Now, I am showing you a document that was produced to  15 us by your counsel.  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Is that the map that you drew of the  18 Babine-Wet'suwet'en language area?  19 A   This looks like a Xerox of it, yes.  20 MR. WILLMS:   Yes.  I have got extra copies, My Lord.  I would  21 ask that the map be the next.  22 THE REGISTRAR:  Do you want to mark this letter?  23 MR. WILLMS:  Let's mark the Marvin George letter 881-31 and the  24 map as a separate --  25 THE REGISTRAR: The map would be 882.  26  27 (EXHIBIT NO. 881-31 - LETTER DATED SEPTEMBER  28 19,1988 FROM MARVIN GEORGE TO JIM KARI)  29  30 (EXHIBIT 882 - KARI MAP)  31  32 Q   Could Exhibit 882 be put before the witness, please.  33 Maybe if we can -- there are some darker lines,  34 because this is a photocopy, Dr. Kari.  35 A  And that's a highway on the map right in the middle.  36 That's Yellowhead Highway.  37 Q   Maybe it would be -- the easiest place to start would  38 be at the top of the map area.  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And the most northerly point on the mapped area is  41 right next to that word "Driftwood" you will see  42 there.  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And then what you have done is you have come down --  45 that the Driftwood River it appears down the middle of  46 Takla Lake to -- and it looks like Leo Creek is on the  47 north side of the lake, but you have drawn a distinct 11674  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 line.  Is there something on the south side of the  2 lake that allowed you to draw that line instead of  3 going around the -- to the end of the lake but coming  4 down at that point?  5 A  Well, I can't claim to that finer tuning on this, sir,  6 especially in -- I mean, there is no problem drawing a  7 line down Takla Lake, but anything that -- and  8 that's -- especially a Sekani boundary there on the  9 east, you know, and then somewhere there's a central  10 Carrier boundary meeting -- coming in between Sekani  11 and Babine and Wet'suwet'en, which is not scored on  12 the map.  So yes, around Leo Creek I am trying to make  13 a transect over to the -- basically to the upper end  14 of Babine Lake.  15 Q   Right.  And that's —  16 A  And I don't claim that's really any more than a zone.  17 Please understand that's -- the notion of a zone is  18 represented by this line.  So I -- and I do not know  19 by any means of any confidence, especially of going  20 between Leo Creek to, say, getting down over here to  21 the base of Francois Lake in that area in that part of  22 this map, I do not claim it to be really accurate.  23 Q   But just to make sure we know where your line is.  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   You have come down from Takla Lake, and the heavy line  26 meets up with the west end of Babine Lake?  27 A   Yes, the headwaters of Babine Lake.  28 Q   Headwaters.  And then you come down across Highway 16?  2 9 A   Uh-huh.  30 Q   At about -- I note that Telkwa was on the left, but  31 was there a geographic reference point, or is that the  32 end of a lake or something?  33 A   This is when it starts to get more precise around  34 here, as far as my feeling for it goes anyway.  I  35 don't know that country personally, and it's hard for  36 me to say where the Central Carrier and  37 Babine-Wet'suwet'en really have their border, and I  38 certainly don't want to offend anybody in any way by  39 assuming that I am right or real precise about that.  40 Central Carrier and Babine-Wet'suwet'en boundary I do  41 not claim to have researched in every nook and cranny.  42 Q   Now, the southern boundary, I think, is pretty clear.  43 There aren't any roads down there.  And then you come  44 out on the left-hand side, that is the western side,  45 and you cross Highway 16 --  4 6 A   Uh-huh.  47 Q   -- again -- 11675  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  A   Uh-huh.  Q   -- near Porphry.  If you look on the left-hand side.  A   Oh, near Moricetown?  Q   Yes.  A   Yes.  Q   All right.  So you come across near Moricetown and  then at -- there aren't any highways that goes back up  to the north again, correct?  Right.  You come down Porphry Creek, don't you?  It does look like it, yes.  Just south of --  Yes.  A  A  A  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS:  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS:  MR. WILLMS:  Q   So Hagwilget Canyon would be outside this mapped  language area?  Well, that's what the Gitksan -- apparently  traditionally the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en have that  perception of a boundary around Porphry Creek.  Now, can you explain -- you have already given  evidence that you have been in Hazelton, you have been  in Moricetown, you have been at Hagwilget.  Burns Lake, Takla Lake and with speakers from Babine  Lake in Burns Lake, and we have been to Francois  Lake -- and yes, sir.  All right.  So just -- let's just go north of Highway  16.  Have you been to Toply Landing?  I have never been out there myself, no.  Or have you been to Fort Babine?  I have never been there either.  Now, you have been to Francois Lake?  Yes, sir.  Have you been to Grassy Plains?  Well, you drive through there, around there.  Okay.  Have you been to locations that are accessible  by car?  Is that a good approximation of where you  have been?  I haven't driven the back roads up in the mountain  country.  I have just been in Francois and on the  other side of Francois and basically between Burns and  Smithers, or Burns and Hazelton on the Yellowhead of  course.  What information did you use to draw the boundary line  from Driftwood Creek up at the north on the west side  of the map all the way down to -- it looks around  Whitesail Lake?  What information did you rely on to  draw that line?  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A 11676  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 A  Well, Whitesail Lake area, that mostly above there --  2 follows the mountain line, and certainly the  3 Wet'suwet'en, Babine-Wet'suwet'en place names all sort  4 of, you know, start in those headwaters.  So that's a  5 mountain crest, a summit line scored around those  6 mountains there, which is confirmed by the place names  7 data, the linguistic analysis of the place names.  8 Q   And is that what you have done north of Highway 16 as  9 well, you have tried to follow the drainage line?  10 A   It's a different -- it's not as straight forward as  11 drawing a ridge line.  I had a colour map of the  12 Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en territories years ago, and I  13 think that helped me to draw some of that in that area  14 about Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en being -- having a  15 boundary in that area.  I'm not the only person who  16 would have -- I mean, I wouldn't know exactly how to  17 do that independent -- totally independently.  I think  18 I used some other maps to help draw this map,  19 especially in terms of the Gitksan-Babine-Wet'suwet'en  20 interface.  21 Q   Those coloured maps, were they prepared by Marvin  22 George, or do you know who prepared them?  23 A   I don't know.  That goes back several years ago.  They  24 had green and reddish tints for different territories  25 and things.  26 Q   Is that a map that you got a copy of?  27 A   I used to have a copy of it, and I seemed to have lost  28 mine recently, but I have been trying to prepare to  29 come down here, and I wanted to find that map, and I  30 couldn't find the one I need, so --  31 Q   How many years ago do you remember seeing this map for  32 the first time?  33 A   Oh, back probably in '85 or '86 when I was in the  34 area.  35 Q   Okay.  Do you remember who gave you the map?  36 A   Probably just -- I know they were tacked on the  37 bulletin board in the office.  It was just, you know,  38 a generally circulated colour map of the -- of what  39 they view as their claim area.  40 Q   By office, you mean in the Tribal Council office?  41 A   In the Tribal Council office.  42 Q   Now, you haven't got -- when you draw the line up  43 there, you do not have Bear Lake included in the  44 Babine-Wet'suwet'en language area?  45 A  At this time I couldn't draw it there from my own  46 research that I could prove that it was in the -- I  47 drew it as I did here south of Bear Lake. 11677  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   Could you today draw it north of Bear Lake?  2 A   No.  3 Q   No.  4 A   For Babine-Wet'suwet'en, not that I know of.  I can't  5 claim to have done all the research that might bear on  6 that issue either.  7 Q   Could you turn to -- it's Exhibit 881-29, which is  8 your 1975 draft.  9 THE COURT:  881-29?  10 MR. WILLMS:  881-29, My Lord.  11 Q   And on page three of that draft you -- on page three  12 of that draft in the last full paragraph on the page  13 you make a note in the last two lines:  14  15 "For example what language is spoken at  16 Takla Lake and how does this differ from the  17 Carrier at Fort St. James."  18  19 And then you say this:  20  21 "There are reports of multi-lingualism at  22 Bear Lake, possibly Gitksan, Babine, Sekani  23 carrier and Tahltan."  24  25 Do you -- where did you get those reports of  26 multi-lingualism at Bear Lake?  27 A   Oh, probably various people I worked with, any number  28 of people say that.  29 Q   And in your research in 1988 -- I am showing you a  30 copy from your notes.  Is that July 4th, 1988?  31 A   Yes, this is up at Iskut.  32 Q   And you were up at Iskut and you were interviewing  33 Charles and Peggy Quock?  34 A   Yes, sir.  35 Q   And you will see down almost at the very bottom there  36 is "MO lived at Bear Lake."  37 A  Mother.  38 Q   That's the mother —  39 A   Her mother lived at Bear Lake.  4 0 Q   And so you say:  41  42 "Mother lived at Bear Lake so PQ,  43  44 That's Peggy Quock.  45  46 "Knows Bear Lake Sekani."  47 1167?  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 A   Uh-huh.  2 Q   Yes?  3 A  Well, actually her -- yes, she speaks Sekani, but  4 she's more dominant in Tahltan through having spent  5 most of her life further north.  A multi-lingual  6 person I would add.  She does not only speak Sekani,  7 she speaks Tahltan.  And Hargis and I haven't  8 confirmed that there is a distinctive Bear Lake  9 dialect yet with distinctive phonological features.  10 We were looking for a good speaker of that area of  11 Sekani, and we did -- we didn't succeed too well.  We  12 found some people that knew some words and so forth.  13 This gets into technical matters of how we can do that  14 sort of thing.  15 Q   From your most recent investigations and referring  16 back to your investigations in 1975, your  17 investigations of Bear Lake indicate that it's unclear  18 as to the language?  19 A   Yes, sir.  Yes, it's a multi-lingual area and it's --  20 requires a -- quite sophisticated linguistic analysis  21 to sort the picture out, and I can't claim to have  22 done it other than that I am interested in it and I am  23 sensitive to it.  And we did meet Peggy Quock and she  24 is more for Caribou Hide.  She's from Caribou Hide.  25 Her mother comes from --  2 6 THE COURT:  Comes from?  Sorry?  27 THE WITNESS:  Her mother spoke Bear Lake Sekani.  Peggy Quock is  2 8 grown up in Caribou Hide.  29 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Caribou what?  30 THE WITNESS:  Caribou Hide, H-i-d-e.  That old village in the  31 Sba Sts'idze area up there.  Isn't that what they say,  32 Spa Sts'idze'.  That's Sba Sts'idze in Tahltan, by the  33 way.  S-b-a space s-t-s apostrophe i-d-z-e apostrophe  34 in Tahltan.  And that means -- it's a word for  35 mountain goat, and I forget what the second word  36 means.  It's some kind of adjective.  Might be red or  37 dry.  My guess -- it might be desiccated, something  38 like that.  39 MR. WILLMS:   My Lord, Exhibit 881-32 for the note.  4 0 THE COURT:  What is CC?  41 THE WITNESS:   Central Carrier.  42 THE COURT:  Central Carrier.  Yes.  43  44 (EXHIBIT NO. 881-32 - NOTE - JULY 4, 1988 - J. KARI)  45  46 Q   Now, Dr. Kari, do you have the book of exhibits with  47 all the tabs in them? 11679  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 A   Yes, sir.  2 Q   If you turn to tab 3, which has been marked as Exhibit  3 878.  4 A   Uh-huh.  5 Q   And then turn to appendix G.  6 A   Yes, sir.  7 Q   The first sentence of that, and my friend took you  8 through that.  You don't have any knowledge of whether  9 or not place names are associated with the territories  10 of the chiefs, do you?  11 A   I don't look at it or know that in terms of a chief's  12 personal territory or -- you kept referring to the  13 fact that I worked with Alfred Joseph a lot.  I don't  14 know where his territory is or, you know, whether a  15 certain place name is in or out of his territory or  16 anything like that.  I just do not know.  17 Q   Right.  18 A   I don't know the country that well.  19 Q   Because, as you say, and this is -- if you will just  20 turn to tab 5 of this, which has been marked Exhibit  21 880, to page 2 of that, your recent work.  22 A   Uh-huh.  23 Q   That large paragraph in the middle of the page under  24 map in square brackets.  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   Your second line you acknowledge that you have not  27 researched individual or chieftainship territories and  28 land use, and you do not claim that the language area  29 and locally recognized territorial boundaries are  30 coterminous?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And that applies equally to the report that's been  33 marked as an exhibit in this case, doesn't it?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Yes.  Now, up in that paragraph above you identify  36 villages where you say Babine-Wet'suwet'en is being  37 spoken?  38 A   Yes.  There are some bit of -- here it says Broman  39 Lake is a town.  That's a mistake.  It should be a  40 village.  Yes, I have revised this, and I am trying to  41 revise some of the phrasing here about these  42 communties, but it's a -- in a ballpark way those are  43 the towns where Babine Village is -- are spoken -- is  44 spoken.  45 Q   And your most current research is about 4,000 persons  46 of Babine-Wet'suwet'en descent at all of those areas?  47 A   Yes, or maybe there is a Diaspora and they live in 11680  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Vancouver.  2 THE COURT:  What's a Disaspora?  3 THE WITNESS:  Well, a -- excuse me, your lord.  A geographically  4 distant community, like an ethnic community that  5 doesn't live in their own original area, like say in  6 Vancouver.  7 THE COURT:  An enclave?  8 THE WITNESS:  An enclave, yes, your honour.  I am quite  9 impressed with Vancouver, and this is a very  10 sophisticated multi-lingual city.  I heard several  11 languages last night and this morning, Irish and --  12 MR. WILLMS:  13 Q   Now, the -- you conclude that paragraph by saying that  14 the language is being maintained most strongly at Fort  15 Babine?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And you are aware that Fort Babine is outside the area  18 claimed by the Wet'suwet'en in this case?  19 A   Of course.  20 Q   Carrying on in this paper.  I guess I can call it a  21 paper now, or is it still a draft?  22 A   It's a draft.  23 Q   In this draft at page --  24 THE COURT:  What is it, a draft of a paper you are preparing for  25 publication?  26 THE WITNESS: Yes, Your Lordship.  It hasn't been submitted.  27 MR. WILLMS:  28 Q   You say on page 10 at the -- in the bottom you are  29 talking about a -- the Carrier ethnonymy and  30 classification problem, and then you describe your  31 report in this case.  After the word "furthermore"  32 here you say:  33  34 "Furthermore as described in Rigsby and  35 Kari 1987, there is today as well as in the  36 past a pattern of assymmetrical bilingualism  37 between B-W and Gitksan to the west, i.e.,  38 B-W speakers tend to know Gitksan more  39 intimately than the reverse."  40  41 Now, just pausing there.  Recalling the language  42 borrowing from Bloomfield, is asymmetrical  43 bilingualism any indication of cultural dominance by  44 the —  45 A   No.  But what it more likely indicates is opacity in  46 the language.  It correlates with difficulty of  47 hearing.  It -- there -- Babine-Wet'suwet-en, like I 11681  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 said, has a difficult phonology.  It doesn't have  2 anything to do with cultural dominance.  It is  3 strictly some languages are harder to hear, depending  4 on what your language is, you know, and some are  5 easier to hear, depending on what your languages are,  6 you know, so it's -- Bloomfield -- that passage in  7 Bloomfield is not relevant here.  8 THE COURT:  You're saying that Wet'suwet'en, Babine-Wet'suwet'en  9 is a more difficult language to --  10 THE WITNESS:  Well, I can say it in various ways.  I could  11 explain it.  But I point out, Your Lordship, that when  12 Eskimos and Athabaskans speak in a bilingual situation  13 up in Alaska, how come the Athabaskan learn Eskimo a  14 lot more often than Eskimos learn Athabaskan.  It's  15 that kind of issue.  Athabaskan is one of the world's  16 most difficult languages.  It's notoriously  17 complicated in linguistic circles because of the  18 complex verbal prefix system, especially because of  19 the long prefixes, strings, prefix strings in front of  20 a stem.  21 Q   Could you turn to page 19 of this.  And this is in the  22 section which you start on the previous page entitled  23 "A Preliminary View of B-W Prehistory".  And in that  24 middle paragraph of the page you conclude --  25 A   On page 19 or page 18?  26 Q   I'm on page 19.  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   You say this:  29  30 "The upper Skeena area of the B-W thus seems  31 to have been the most favorite environment  32 occupied by the northern Athabaskan's."  33  34 Just stopping there.  What do you mean by Upper  35 Skeena area of the B-W?  Are you referring to Babine  36 Lake?  37 A   Babine drainage and Bulkley drainage.  Not -- of both.  38 Both.  39 Q   Both?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   So you lump the Bulkley in with the Upper Skeena area  42 there?  43 A   Yes.  In a general sense these are -- this is  44 obviously Skeena headwaters people, the  45 Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  In a general sense.  It doesn't  46 mean there might not be a boundary going across Babine  47 River or so on and so forth.  It's not -- this is just 11682  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 a general geographical estimate.  And also I have  2 taken out the term "favoured environment" too, and I  3 have changed it to "ecologically productive  4 environment", which is a better way of saying what I  5 am trying to say.  You follow me on -- Your Lordship?  6 That's a better -- it's a more sophisticated way of  7 phrasing it than saying a "favoured environment", but  8 an "ecological productive environment".  9 Q   You carry on, then, in that sentence and say:  10  11 "And we feel that the B-W and Carrier have  12 been residents of the area for at least  13 2,000 years and perhaps much longer."  14  15 And then I see there is a footnote 13.  And if you  16 turn to page 26 of Exhibit 880 in your footnote 13 you  17 say:  18  19 "Certainly it is of some relevance that  20 Frying Pan Mountain between Takla and Babine  21 Lakes is called ..."  22  23 And perhaps you could pronounce that?  24 A   /lu dzel tay/.  That's spelled slash 1-u, underlined 1  25 space d-z.  Hargis is using a Shwa on her word  26 processor.  We'll call that an E.  Shwa a S-h-w-a.  27 And then T.  So the second word of the three is D-z-e  28 underlined 1, and the third word is t-a-y.  I  29 mentioned this name on Monday, I believe.  30 Q   Yes.  Then you say:  31  32 "Glacier Mountain trail.  There is currently  33 no glacier on this mountain or in the  34 vicinity."  35  36 Now, is that something you say is relevant in  37 dating that?  38 A   Yes, it -- that -- that would suggest, Mr. Willms,  39 that the name goes back with time when that area was  40 glaciated.  41 Q   Did you know that during the little ice age which  42 extended it to approximately 1850 A.D.  43 A   Uh-huh.  44 Q   That some of the glaciers in the mountains expanded as  45 much as a kilometer?  46 A   In 1850 —  47 Q   And reached elevations below 1,200 meters.  Did you 11683  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  A  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  THE  COURT:  16  17  MR.  WILLMS  18  THE  COURT:  19  MR.  WILLMS  20  THE  COURT:  21  MR.  WILLMS  22  Q  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  know that?  No.  That's interesting, but I didn't know that.  In  1850?  1850.  You know that Frying Pan Mountain is above  1,200 meters?  I -- yes, looks as much as that.  Now --  Are you saying that they came after or around 1850  A.D.?  Would you conclude that?  Would you conclude  that, sir?  Let's go back to page 19 and your reference to someone  else's work in the area.  Page?  Page 19.  Let's go back to page 19, Exhibit 880.  What did you say, Mr. Willms, that Frying Pan  Mountain is what, is 1,200 meters?  :  It's above.  It's about 1,900, I think, My Lord.  It's above 1,200?  :  It's above 1,200.  Yes.  All right.  And now turning to what page?  Coming back to page 19.  And you conclude, and we have  just -- we stopped at footnote 19, Dr. Kari, in the  middle of the page, and then you say this:  "By way of contrast to our independent B-W  Carrier migration hypothesis, Story (1984)  makes frequent reference to 'Proto-Babine  Carrier' for which she posits a time depth  of 310 years based on a count of '78 words  from the standard 100 word list."  Now, just stopping there.  That is a hypothesis  that is inconsistent with your 2,000 year hypothesis,  correct?  Yes, it doesn't -- it's a completely -- what it shows  is the glottochronology doesn't work.  Well, if -- unless there was a glacier there in the  recent past.  I mean, if there was a glacier there in  the recent past, that would tend to support Story's  hypothesis, wouldn't it?  Not at all.  Not in the least.  By the way, the 100-word list that is being referred  to there, that's the Swadesh list.  S-w-a-d-e-s-h.  We were beginning to get into that  yesterday afternoon, and I could extemporize it here  too, if you want me too, on glottochronology and 11684  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Story's 310 years.  How much time is there before the  2 break?  3 Q   I would rather carry on with your --  4 THE COURT:  P-B-C is?  5 THE WITNESS:   Proto-Babine Carrier.  That's what our table six  6 is addressing that we had out on Monday.  Table six in  7 the Hargis/Kari paper.  This is where we deal with the  8 Proto-Babine-Carrier as being a non-issue.  P-B-C is a  9 non-issue.  10 THE COURT:  You have now divided Babine-Carrier into the two  11 subdivisions, have you?  12 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  I seen them as autonomous subdivisions, and  13 I do not think 310 years ago they were all Carrier and  14 they've become Babine-Carrier the last 310 years.  And  15 I would love to talk about this even the rest of the  16 day if you --  17 THE COURT:  But at the moment you're saying that what used to be  18 called Babine-Carrier is now two separate entities,  19 one being Babine-Wet'suwet'en and the other one being  20 simple Carrier?  21 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  And the glottochronology, such as Story's  22 use of it in her monograph, bears out the  23 ludicrousness of trying to date things from the  24 Swadesh 100-word list.  It's only a 100 words.  In  25 fact, the percentages are lower between Carrier and  26 Chilcotin than they are between Babine-Wet'suwet'en  27 and in Carrier, and yet Carriers can understand  28 Chilcotin better than they can understand  29 Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  I was quite struck by that.  I  30 thought that was a remarkable finding, that when you  31 ask people who can they understand better, like people  32 from Fort St. James, they can understand Chilcotin  33 better than they can understand Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  34 Is that -- did I make myself clear, Your Lordship?  35 That was surprising to me.  36 MR. WILLMS:  37 Q   Now, maybe you could turn to page 24 of this report,  38 and you say at the top of the page -- you talk about  39 the literature on the Tsimshianic-Athabaskan interface  40 and Gitksan influence on the so-called Carrier, and  41 then you mention some -- you mention Dr. Kobrinsky,  42 who we have been through, and then say this:  43  44 "Ives (1987) sees the Upper Skeena River  45 area as a favorite environment with ancient  46 social complexity and as an early homeland  47 of the Tsimshianic people.  However, we find 11685  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Ives provocative paper title 'The Tsimshian  2 are Carrier' ironic in view of the muddled  3 history of language classification and  4 ethnonymy in the region."  5  6 Now, is that a way of saying that you don't agree  7 with Ives?  8 A  Well, I don't agree that the far Skeena headwaters are  9 the origin of the Tsimshianic people, no, I don't  10 agree with Ives on that, and -- however, I do agree  11 with his -- the general things he says about it being  12 a -- I use the term favorite environment, but Ives  13 does present an interesting argument about Weiss (?).  14 It's a good area for salmon harvesting going way back  15 in time.  16 Q   I am showing you a extract from Ethnicity and Culture  17 and the article "Tsimshian are Carrier".  18 A   Yes.  19 MR. WILLMS   My Lord, 881-33.  2 0    THE COURT:  Yes.  21  22 (EXHIBIT NO. 881-33 - EXTRACT FROM ETHINICTY  2 3 AND CULTURE)  24  25 Q   You know that when -- before Dr. Ives wrote this paper  26 he was looking not only at linguistic evidence but  27 also archaeological evidence in the area as well?  2 8 A   Yes.  And he's not competent to deal with the  29 linguistic evidence.  By the way, I read his 1985  30 dissertation, and it's coming out as a book, and it's  31 called "A Theory of Athabaskan prehistory".  It's an  32 excellent University of Michigan dissertation, for  33 those of you interested in Athabaskan studies.  It's  34 coming out, I don't know, maybe later this year, but  35 Ives is not a linguist.  36 Q   But you will agree that he reviews the linguistics of  37 the region in his paper here?  38 A  Well, in a naive way.  39 Q   You are aware of the archaeological evidence on the  40 Skeena River, including the archaeological evidence on  41 earth by Allaire --  42 A   By whom?  43 Q   Allaire, Louie Allaire, A-1-l-a-i-r-e?  44 A   No, I am not.  45 Q   And Coupland?  46 A   No, sir.  47 Q   You are not.  At Kitselas Canyon? 11686  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 A   No, I don't know that, sir.  2 Q   Maybe I should ask this, then.  Are you aware, other  3 than your reading of the report by Ms. Albright, are  4 you aware of any of the archaeological evidence from  5 this area?  6 A   I have read the Ames -- some of Ames' articles.  7 Q   Ames.  8 A   But I, you know, I don't claim to remember the details  9 of his findings.  10 Q   But can I put it this way, that in terms of Dr. Ives  11 archaeological conclusions here, you are really not in  12 a position to comment on those because --  13 A   Not in an authoritative way.  14 Q   You are just not aware of the archaeology?  15 A  Well, yes -- I couldn't tell -- no -- yes, you are  16 right.  I read the archaeological literature just for  17 background and interest.  I don't try to read it  18 exhaustively, unless somebody recommends something  19 like that.  I think -- I mean, what Ives has done is  20 at least a respectable academic work as opposed to  21 Kobrinsky's work which is certainly not.  So -- and he  22 has turned the stereotype around, so that the  23 Tsimshian maybe have borrowed from the Carrier, and  24 it's rather ironic that Ives doesn't realize he is  25 talking about the Babine-Wet'suwet'en and not the  26 Carrier.  And if you see his map here, he has Babine  27 as a dialect of Carrier.  So it's interesting, though.  28 I really think Ives' paper is provocative.  29 Q   And the provocative nature of it is that Ives, and  30 putting to one side your views of his linguistic  31 capabilities, Ives uses archaeology and linguistics to  32 advance a theory of alternating interior and coastal  33 cultures in this area?  34 A  Alternating?  35 Q   Yes.  36 A  What do you mean by alternating?  37 Q   Well, perhaps you could turn to page 221 of Ives.  And  38 what Dr. Ives says here, it's in the paragraph on the  39 first paragraph on the left-hand side where he is  40 discussing the -- he is in the archaeology here.  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   Of Allaire and Coupland, and then he -- maybe to set  43 the context I should read the whole section from the  4 4              middle:  45  46 "Coupland and Allaire are in by far the best  47 positions to make inferences concerning 11687  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 these remains."  2  3 These are the ones at Kitselas Canyon.  4  5 "And Coupland in particular is to be  6 commended for his thorough and perceptive  7 treatment of the data.  Yet his perspective  8 on the lower Skeena was strongly influenced  9 by theoretical framework stressing gradual  10 long-term in situ evolution of lower Skeena  11 societies.  In my view, this prehistoric  12 record favours an interpretation of  13 alternating interior as opposed to coastally  14 oriented technologies more in accord with  15 Allaire's treatment."  16  17 Now, what I understand the provocative nature of  18 Ives' paper was, was that he was suggesting that  19 rather than there being this in situ coastal  2 0 development moving up the Skeena River, that there was  21 in fact a significant Athapaskan existence in this  22 area.  That's right?  23 A   Yes, I think that's —  24 Q   And he used linguistic evidence as well as  25 archaeological evidence to reach that conclusion?  26 A  Well, he's a quick study and he uses things that he  27 finds, such as the Jenness kinship material and the  28 Dyen and Aberle reconstruction of proto-Athabaskan  29 kinship in Dyen and Aberle '74, and, you know, he's a  30 sophisticated scholar.  31 Q   Now, your linguistic investigations were -- and I  32 realize you didn't look at the archaeology of Allaire  33 and Coupland, but did your linguistic investigations,  34 are they consistent with there being a very strong  35 Athapaskan presence in the -- let's say, as far down  36 as the middle Skeena River?  37 A   No, I -- where is the middle Skeena?  Is that like  38 Terrace, B.C.?  39 Q   Let's say Kitselas Canyon and above.  40 A   Is that above Terrace or below Terrace, Kitselas  41 Canyon?  42 Q   It's above Terrace.  43 A   How far above?  44 THE COURT:  It's between Terrace and Hazelton.  45 THE WITNESS:   Well, no, I don't have any linguistic evidence  46 about speakers who use, you know, Athabaskan place  47 names in that area or anything like that, you know. 116?  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 It's -- it is possible that the Athabaskan boundary  2 was further west at some point in the ancient past.  3 THE COURT:  Well, didn't you tell me yesterday that somebody  4 reported that -- a portion of the inhabitants of  5 Kitsegukla spoke Athabaskan?  6 THE WITNESS:   Yes, My Lord, that's an interesting — that's why  7 I mentioned that.  It does imply that Athabaskan's  8 were further west.  9 MR. WILLMS:  10 Q   Could you turn to page 222 of Ives where he wraps up  11 his conclusion in the last paragraph above the notes.  12 He says:  13  14 "In like fashion, we must understand the  15 historic context for the ethnic  16 differentiation of coastal and interior  17 people.  Many models for the emergence of  18 coastal cultures have stressed in situ  19 development.  Yet, it may very well be the  20 case that socioeconomic transformations of  21 interior societies with economic and  22 political incentives to move downstream  23 were of paramount significance to the  24 regions prehistory."  25  26 Just pausing there.  I think one of the things  27 that you said in your evidence in chief was that  28 Athabaskan have a tendency to move downstream.  29 A   Precisely.  30 Q   So that certainly is consistent with your  31 understanding of Athapaskan linguistic background, is  32 that correct?  33 A   Yes, I feel that Ives and I could have a good  34 discussion on this subject.  I have never met the man.  35 Q   But you do know that Dr. Ives came down as far as  36 Kitselas Canyon and used some of the archaeology of  37 the area to support his hypothesis?  38 A   Yes, but he -- in Kitselas Canyon did he commit  39 himself as whether that was Tsimshianic or Athabaskan,  40 Ives?  Does he say that the Kitselas Canyon material  41 is Athabaskan?  Does he say that -- if so, you have  42 read it -- I mean, I don't know.  Does he claim  43 ethnicity in the record?  44 Q   I'll just carry on.  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   What he says is this:  47 11689  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 "I believe these historic processes should  2 give us cause in our efforts to discern  3 prehistoric ethnic identities in this  4 region.  They should lead us to question  5 what is truly coastal as opposed to interior  6 in all cultural senses, and they should  7 perhaps alert us that the historical  8 processes themselves not so much the  9 detecion of ethnicity are the fundamental  10 issue for research."  11  12 Now, that point that he is making there, that you  13 should be looking at the processes and not trying to  14 detect ethnicity, that's a valid point, isn't it?  15 A   Yes, sir.  16 Q   It's a valid point in this area, because ethnicity is  17 very difficult to determine prehistorically; is that  18 correct?  19 A   In terms of language or in terms of archaeology?  In  20 the archaeology vein that is a conservative view that  21 an archaeologist would make, that it is difficult to  22 determine ethnicity through, you know, simply the  23 material remains.  24 Q   All right.  Well, let's just take a particular  25 location and determine ethnicity at that location.  26 You are suggesting that Dr. Ives -- the idea is that  27 archaeologically it is difficult to determine  28 ethnicity at a particular location prehistorically.  29 A  Well, it doesn't mean it's never possible, but it's  30 difficult.  31 Q   Yes.  And it's also difficult to do linguistically at  32 a particular location prehistorically?  33 A   Have you read Sapir 1916?  34 Q   Can you just answer my question.  Is it or is it not  35 difficult in this region to determine at the location  36 prehistoric linguistic ethnicity?  37 A   No, it's not.  In margin areas it is, or border zones  38 it is.  If Kitsegukla was multi-lingual between  39 Tsimshianic and Athabaskan, or Kitselas Canyon was  40 multi-lingual, yes, it's difficult to determine, to  41 determine that, say, Moricetown or further up in the  42 upper river areas of Babine Lake is, for example,  43 probably Athabaskan in the archaeological record.  44 That's another matter.  It is -- there are marks  45 apparently -- there are ways that linguistics can  46 contribute to notions of environments that are  47 occupied by previous people and so forth.  That's why 11690  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 I did mention Sapir 1916.  It's certainly more  2 relevant than Bloomfield to my work in this area.  3 Q   So you're saying that when you determined that today  4 the linguistic evidence points to a certain ethnicity  5 at a location.  6 A   Uh-huh.  7 Q   You can infer from that prehistoric ethnicity at the  8 same location?  9 A   I don't say it's coterminous, but it's quite  10 suggestive -- within the modern Babine-Wet'suwet'en  11 language area you have such ancient sites as  12 Moricetown and names like Qayex Weget, Q-u-a-y-e-x  13 second word W-e-g-e-t.  It's possible to combine or  14 make generalizations about archaeology and the  15 linguistic record that at least in, say, 2,000 year  16 time depth.  I mean, that's what I say is a  17 conservative estimate for Babine-Wet'suwet'en being in  18 their area.  Yes, I think that's quite a comfortable  19 statement to make.  It doesn't mean the perimeters are  20 exactly the way I try to see them today, but, you  21 know, they got to be in there somewhere.  It's an  22 ancient -- it's a conservative Athabaskan language.  23 This is why I do suggest Sapir 1916, if you  24 haven't read it, Time Perspective in Aboriginal  25 Cultures or something like that.  Classic paper about  26 vocabulary and study of loan words, and essentially  27 it's the whole model and the whole theoretical  28 approach the Rigsby Carrier report is essentially  29 trying to exercise in this paper, as well as in the  30 Kari and Hargis work here.  We are very well aware of  31 Sapir 1916.  32 Q   But you are getting your time depth from the  33 archaeological evidence, aren't you?  34 A   No.  My colleagues and I have our sense of Athabaskan  35 time depth, and it's not that never the twain shall  36 meet between us, the archaeologists.  Sometimes we do  37 meet and have congruent opinions, but I get my sense  38 of time depth from linguistic information and not  39 local archaeological information.  40 MR. WILLMS:   Maybe we can come back to Exhibit 880, page 24.  41 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, 880?  42 MR. WILLMS:  It's tab 5, My Lord.  43 THE COURT:  I see.  44 MR. WILLMS:  45 Q   And we left a quote from your paper after your mention  46 of Ives' provocative paper title.  47 A   Uh-huh. 11691  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   And then you carry on.  2 THE COURT:  That was on page 24?  3 MR. WILLMS:  Page 24, My Lord.  You carry on:  4  5 "Rigsby and Kari (1987) present evidence of  6 diffusions at various points in time between  7 proto-Tsimshian and PA."  8  9 Now, PA you mean Proto-Athabaskan?  10 A   Proto-Athabaskan.  11 Q  12 "And Proto-Na-Dene as well as widespread  13 Gitksan-B-W multi-lingualism, suggestive of  14 a pattern of a replacive bilingualism and  15 a gradual upriver spread of Gitksan."  16  17 Just stopping there.  Now, that spread upriver of  18 Gitksan is not really inconsistent with a theory of  19 interior speaking people being as far down as Kitselas  20 Canyon some time in the past, is it?  I mean, somebody  21 else had to be there before the Gitksan community  22 moved up, right?  23 A  Well, let's say, right.  Go ahead.  24 Q   And it's likely that the community that was there was  25 Athapaskan speaking?  26 A  At Kitselas Canyon?  27 Q   Well, in the area that you are talking about, the  28 pattern of replacive bilingualism and a gradual  29 upriver spread of Gitskan, and what I am suggesting is  30 that spread of Gitksan upriver is at the expense of  31 Athapaskan.  32 A   Not at the expense, sir, the notion, like in the  33 orange colour here, that -- the reason that's a  34 simplification is it's a cross-hatch, if you know what  35 I mean, graphically.  These are -- there is a zone of  36 Gitksan and Athabaskan or Tsimshian and Athabaskan in  37 the area. It's cross-hatched.  It shouldn't be one  38 block of colour.  And that gives you a little more  39 graphic picture of what we are saying about replacive  40 bilingualism.  It's not that you move one community up  41 and you push the other one away and take over their  42 country.  I don't think that is -- you know, I don't  43 look at it that way.  I can't prove that there wasn't  44 warfare or they didn't take over somebody's country at  45 different points in time, but the general trend we  46 have is replacive bilingualism and a peaceful spread  47 of the Gitksan upriver over a long period of time. 11692  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   Overlying an Athapaskan?  2 A   Possibly at some -- in a zone.  Possibly in some -- at  3 an interface, and maybe Kitselas Canyon is an  4 interface.  I don't know.  Beautiful country up there,  5 and I should know where Kitselas Canyon is, but I  6 really don't.  7 MR. WILLMS:  My Lord, the next area will take longer than five  8 minutes, and it would be appropriate to take the  9 morning break.  10    THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  11  12  13 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  14  15 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO BE  16 A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF THE  17 PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE BEST OF MY  18 SKILL AND ABILITY.  19  2 0    21 LORI OXLEY  22 OFFICIAL REPORTER  23 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 11693  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 11:30)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Willms.  5 MR. WILLMS:  6 Q   Before we leave your report, could you -- this is the  7 1989 draft, Exhibit 880 at tab 5, could you turn to  8 page 25 of that, please.  In the first paragraph there  9 you refer to the speakers that you interviewed,  10 including the 15 speakers that you interviewed in  11 Hagwilget and Moricetown between 1973 and 1986?  12 A   Um-hum.  13 Q   And then you give special thanks in the next paragraph  14 to a number of people, and I won't read them out, but  15 are those people the people that you did the most work  16 with?  17 A   This summer, yes.  18 Q   This summer.  Now, how about overall on  19 Babine-Wet'suwet'en, are there names that you would  20 add to this?  21 A   Oh, there are plenty of other people that I did less,  22 you know, work with, but for example, yesterday when  23 you had me list the people I had worked mostly with  24 between Hagwilget and Moricetown, now I would -- in an  25 overall perspective I would have a different way of  26 summarizing that, not just in terms of Hagwilget and  27 Moricetown, but Burns Lake and Takla Landing, and so  28 forth.  29 THE COURT:  This summer is 1988?  30 A   Yes.  These are all people I worked with in 1988.  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  32 MR. WILLMS:  33 Q   Then you go on in that second paragraph and say this:  34  35 "Others who we thank for their contributions to the  36 formulation of our analysis are" --  37  38 And you've got a list of people, including Richard  39 Overstall?  4 0 A   Um-hum.  41 Q   Now, how did Richard Overstall help you with your  42 analysis?  43 A  Well, only by -- not in any extremely -- actually, I  44 haven't even read his comments on his paper yet,  45 frankly, I was just sort of thanking him for being a  46 gracious -- I had dinner at his house and we discussed  47 things in a more or less, you know, from the point of 11694  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 view of a geologist speaking with a linguist.  He  2 didn't come up with any linguistic insights of any  3 kind, but he is a colleague and a friend, and --  4 Q   Now, you will recall that before the break when I put  5 your reference in your report about Story to you in  6 the 100-word list, you made a comment about the use of  7 Swadesh's method of time dating?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And that's a -- Story used that, that's what you're  10 referring to?  11 A   Yes.  One paragraph in Story.  12 Q   And you will recall that in the report that's been  13 marked Exhibit 877 here, your report and Dr. Rigsby's  14 report, there are references to the Swadesh vocabulary  15 list in the context of dating?  16 A   Excuse me, sir.  When Rigsby -- which page?  17 Q   Well, let's go to page 31, for example.  18 A   Of the tab, which tab?  19 Q   Of tab 2.  It's the report.  2 0 A   Um-hum.  21 Q   Page 31.  Well, maybe we should start at page 30  22 because it says right at the very bottom of the page,  23 page 30, it says:  24  25 "Turning to vocabulary, it is possible to gain a  26 measure of Gitksan and Nishga lexical similarity  27 by examining and comparing their 'basic'  28 vocabulary.  They share 97 items on the 100-item  29 Swadesh basic vocabulary list and this disregards  30 accentual or phonetic differences in their  31 pronunciations."  32  33 Now, he then carries on, but then he says at the  34 beginning of the next paragraph:  35  36 "If we think of Gitksan and Nishga as sister  37 languages, we can extend the genealogical metaphor  38 and say that they are related to Coast Tsimshian  39 and Southern Tsimshian as cousin languages.  In  40 keeping with the greater time period elapsed since  41 their common Proto-Tsimishian ancestor, the  42 differences between either Gitksan and Coast  43 Tsimshian, for example, are greater than those  44 between Gitksan and Nishga."  45  46 Now, he's referring to the Swadesh differences, isn't  47 he? 11695  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 A   Not at this time point.  Swadesh has nothing to do  2 with his judgments there.  I mean he's using -- he's  3 using the Swadesh percentages just to say "This is  4 what I found".  He doesn't date -- Rigsby would  5 certainly not say because of the 97 out of 100 that  6 ergo, you know, using the old 86-percent formula of  7 Swadesh that it meant X number of years, whatever that  8 would be.  And Story does in fact calculate, not  9 just -- Bruce does the percentage of the 100-word  10 list, he doesn't do the dating aspect of it, which has  11 been discredited in linguistic work.  Story simply  12 carries it through as an intellectual exercise of her  13 report and comes up with 310 years, which is an  14 illustration of the ludicrousness of the Swadesh  15 100-word list.  16 Q   Can you --  17 A   For specific sense of dating, no one does this --  18 hardly anyone does it anymore in world-wide basis.  To  19 say that you can actually date language branching off  20 from each other, in fact that's in most cases, except  21 in certain unique situations like a Polynesian  22 migration onto uninhabited island and so forth, where  23 you have distinct branching, in most cases the Swadesh  24 100-word list is not used as a dating school by  25 linguists.  26 Q   Well, let's go to page 35.  2 7 A   Um-hum.  28 Q   And what Dr. Rigsby does here is he starts off by  29 saying he's done a lexical comparison for the four  30 Tsimshian languages of 71 items on the Swadesh  31 100-item list?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Sets out the figures there?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And then talks about mutual intelligibility --  3 6 A   Um-hum.  37 Q   At the bottom of the page.  And then at the very top  38 of the next page he talks about timing.  He says:  39  40 "In recent times it is likely that Gitksan and  41 Southern Tsimshian people would have used the  42 Coast Tsimshian language to communicate with one  43 another or would have shifted their respective  44 ways of speaking towards Coast Tsimshian.  This  45 inference is made in the light of some early  46 historical evidence that the Coast Tsimshian was  47 widely used as a lingua franca in the region." 11696  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Now, just pausing there, I mean isn't it significant  to you that he makes that historical statement right  after talking about the Swadesh list?  A  Well, what about the Swadesh list is so -- like I say,  he notes the percentages on the Swadesh list but he  doesn't calculate years.  Q   Well, let's -- I'm showing you the paper by Swadesh,  "Lexico-Statistic Dating of Prehistoric Ethnic  Contacts".  Now, you're familiar -- this is the one  that you say is in disuse now, is that right?  A   In a rigid sense.  People use it for percentage of --  percentages only, and they don't bother doing the -- I  mean some people -- some peoples remain fascinated  with it, it's sort of a very minor issue in historical  linguistics to use the Swadesh list for any more than  comparing the percentage of the 100 words.  They do  not do it for dating purposes anymore.  MR. WILLMS:  My lord, I've handed up another grey binder which I  asked be Exhibit 881A so that these are manageable,  and I would ask that this Swadesh article be 881A-1.  THE COURT:  All right.  The other one isn't full but you're just  spreading it.  MR. WILLMS:  It would be too full, my lord, just marginally.  THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  EXHIBIT  51A  EXHIBIT 881A-1  M. Swadesh  Cross-exam book number V  Tab 1 - Lexico-Statistics paper,  THE COURT  A  THE COURT  A  :  Doctor, can you tell me, in the Swadesh test do you  pick a different 100 words for every language you're  testing?  No.  You take -- the idea, if you say use head, eye  nose, common body parts, some common pronouns,  universal things like sky and water, and in all  languages you can then compute how long in the past  languages have broken off into and diverged from one  another.  :  Is there a factor in that equation that would be  variable depending upon the exposure to English?  Well, not simply the exposure to English.  The factor  in the equation, the assumption is that all languages  replace vocabulary and at the same rate or a similar  rate.  That's what had to make it work for the theory  to work, was that say Hawaiian would change the same  way Nishga and English changed, for example, say that 11697  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  THE COURT  three -- widely different languages, that if you did  the 100-word list in those different families of  languages you could -- you would have a common rate of  change, and that's why the dating metric fell out or  fell apart on this -- it was quite exciting in the  50's when people were going around and trying this  out, and because it looked at first like a linguistic  analogue to carbon-14 dating in archaeology.  You could do the Swadesh test between English and  French, and French and German, and English and German?  Yes.  That's the idea.  All right, thank you.  A  THE COURT:  MR. WILLMS:  Q   And in fact, if you look at page 452 of Swadesh I  guess he sets it out.  He sets the theory out on the  right-hand side.  He talks about carbon dating, which  you just mentioned that paragraph on the right-hand  side, but about the middle of the page he says -- or  the paragraph:  "Wherever a speech community comes to be divided  into two or more parts so that linguistic change  goes separate ways in each of the new speech  communities, the percentage of common retained  vocabulary gives an index of the amount of time  that has elapsed since the separation.  Consequently, wherever we find two languages which  can be shown by comparative linguistics to be the  end products of such a divergence in the  prehistoric past, we are able to determine when  the first separation took place."  Now, that's the theory, isn't it?  A   Yes.  Q   And what he does is he calculates, and if you turn to  page 460 of this, he -- under the column "Divergence"  he goes through a mathematical calculation, and at the  bottom of the calculation, and you will see the indent  on page 460 where he's got D equals log c divided by 2  2 log R, and then he says this, skipping one line:  "To save the effort of consulting the logarithm  table and carrying out the division, one may use a  prepared chart, like the following based on R = 81  percent (R squared = 66 percent) and divergence  time given in centuries to the nearest half  century." 1169?  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 And what he's doing down there is he is -- he's got  2 the percentages in the left-hand column and the time  3 divergence in centuries on the right-hand column all  4 the way from 95 in the percentage column down to 5?  5 A   Yes, sir.  6 Q   All right.  And so that was his theory?  7 A   Yes, sir.  8 Q   Now, you will see, and there's a table, for example,  9 on the next page of Swadesh, page 461, and if you look  10 at page 35 of your report, and just to set the  11 framework, what -- when Swadesh does his table on 461  12 between Lillooet, Shuswap, Okanagon and Columbia, he's  13 doing it in a section where he says under "Slow  14 Divergence":  15  16 "Often the divergence of one language into two  17 takes place not from a clean separation of the old  18 community into two parts, but as a result of  19 incomplete contact over a long period of time."  20  21 And then what he does is he discusses villages  22 breaking up, some of them being more closely related  23 to each other, and the end product of his discussion  24 is this little graph that he's drawn up here?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   All right.  That looks a lot like the graph that Dr.  27 Rigsby's drawn on page 35?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Yes.  So that when you take, for example -- and the  30 example that he gives, he says here he's trying to get  31 the greatest time divergence between the four  32 linguistic groups on page 461, this is Swadesh, and he  33 infers that if you take the least common number, that  34 will give you the total time divergence of the  35 language from its protoform, that's the theory?  36 A   That's the theory.  37 Q   All right.  And so if you look at the percentages that  38 Dr. Rigsby has set out on page 35 --  3 9 A   Um-hum.  40 Q   And flip back in Swadesh to page 460, to the  41 convenient table that Swadesh created here, you will  42 see, looking at the table, the greatest divergence  43 that Dr. Rigsby sets out is between Gitksan and  44 Southern Tsimshian of 69 percent?  45 A   Yes, sir.  46 Q   And assuming -- and you've already said that there are  47 problems with Swadesh, but assuming that Swadesh is 11699  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 accurate, when you look for 69 percent in those  2 columns there you will see that that's a divergence of  3 about eight centuries?  4 A   That's the theory.  5 Q   That's the theory, so that the divergence on the  6 Swadesh theory between Gitksan and Southern Tsimshian  7 would be about eight centuries, about 800 years?  8 A   That's correct.  9 Q   Now, and you will recall that the conclusion that Dr.  10 Rigsby comes to in this report is somewhere between  11 500 and 2,000 years, that's what he says, for the  12 divergence from Proto-Tsimshian to these four  13 languages?  14 A   How many years?  15 Q   500 to 2,000?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Now, can I suggest this to you:  Do you know whether  18 or not Dr. Rigsby used the Swadesh method to date?  I  19 mean do you know that for a fact, or are you just  20 assuming that because you don't think Swadesh is  21 reliable?  22 A  Well, neither does Bruce, but he uses it just to show  23 the percentages.  You can do with them what you will,  24 notice he only has 71 items of the 100-word list even  25 flagged that he had congruent data for, so you need  26 congruent data.  He didn't even have all 100 items to  27 compare with, so that right away would change the  28 percentage if he happened to have more data.  The  29 other 29 items aren't even used, so Bruce uses it for  30 relative percentages.  Do with them what you will,  31 they're of some interest.  He does not use the table  32 to say eight centuries or five or whatever, you know,  33 he doesn't -- he wouldn't adopt that position, I know  34 that, I'm a student of his and I've heard him lecture  35 on this way back in the early '70's.  36 THE COURT:  Where do you see he used 71 items?  37 A   It says on the top of page 35 that he used 71 items of  38 the 100-word list, so 29 items that didn't have all  39 four languages didn't have data for all four  40 languages, and also in Story's data, I think she --  41 she had a similar problem in her data of using 70-some  42 items and not the whole corpus.  You know, that's the  43 real world, nobody thought to get that word in the one  44 language that you need for comparisons, so you end up  45 with less than 100 words, you know.  46 MR. WILLMS:  47 Q   One thing that this table that Dr. Rigsby has set out 11700  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  THE COURT:  44  45  46  47  MR. WILLMS  is consistent with is it is consistent with the split?  Mm-hmm.  The language split of Southern Tsimshian from Gitksan,  being older than say Coast Tsimshian and Gitksan?  Yes.  It gives you a relative percentage.  Yes.  And then when you get to Nishga and Gitksan, you  know, the time split must have been relatively more  recent?  That's the -- that seems quite clear, and like we  pointed out in our 19 -- in our draft the Kari-Hargus  draft, it is that compared to Nishga and Gitksan,  Babine-Wet'suwet'en and Central Carrier are much more  distinct than the Nishga to Gitksan boundary -- than  Nishga-Gitksan divergence.  And just looking at Swadesh on page 460, if you just  automatically used that 97-percent distinction, you  would be at around the one century, the 100 years for  the divergence between Nishga and Gitksan?  Yes.  According to Swadesh?  According to the theory.  Yes.  Now, just in terms of geography on the -- on the  time depth between these languages, you have the time  depth, if you move up the coast you've got Southern  Tsimshian, which is Hartley Bay, down around here, and  moving up to Coast Tsimshian, Prince Rupert area, and  then the next closest is the Nishga, and the furthest  divergence but closer to Nishga is Gitksan?  Yes.  All right.  So you've got a sort of a geographical  time movement or time depth there, whether there's  movement -- forget about whether there's movement, but  it's sort of 800 years from the furthest away point  among Gitksan to Southern Tsimshian?  Eight hundred years if you follow Swadesh's table.  Right.  Or 500 to 2,000 according to Dr. Rigsby in the  report?  Between what and what, between Nishga and Gitksan and  the rest of Tsimshian, or does he say?  I perhaps  should be -- I don't know that I even want to comment  much more about Tsimshian language families and  language divergence, but that's --  Do I have it correct that the 800 figure, for  whatever it's worth, represents the Swadesh  calculating divergence between Coast Tsimshian and  South Tsimshian.  :  No.  Southern Tsimshian and Gitksan. 11701  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 THE COURT:  Southern and Gitksan?  2 MR. WILLMS:  3 Q   Gitksan?  4 A   Yes.  You see, can I comment about why it's an  5 unrealistic cladistic branching?  It's the languages  6 don't just go here and then here and then here and  7 then, you know, the Indo-European tree that's so  8 famous, like is really only a very vague approximation  9 of what happens, because instead you end up having a  10 language and then contact and recontact with other  11 similar languages, so that the tree structure which  12 is -- Swadesh actually, you know, does talk about in  13 terms of this divergence, is a bit rigid and arbitrary  14 view of -- actually, languages don't just branch off  15 from each other, but they branch off and then  16 re-inter-relate, recycle things through normal  17 intermarriage and contact, so you end up with -- no,  18 there's no question that Tsimshian people have been in  19 the area maybe 10 or 12,000 years.  I think most  20 archaeologists would agree they were somewhere for 10  21 or 12,000 years, and there's all kinds of regrouping  22 and recycling within the four languages that could  23 happen over that time frame, you see.  But I don't --  24 continue, Mr. Willms.  25 Q   Well, on page 35, just sticking with the diagram that  26 Dr. Rigsby has drawn, it appears that in terms of  27 shared language items, at least from this Swadesh  28 list, that Nishga is closer to Coast Tsimshian than  29 Gitksan is?  30 A   Yes.  I think that's what the -- yes, sir, I believe  31 you're right.  32 Q   And you're aware that there is a group which have been  33 put -- by Dr. Rigsby in with the Gitksan, that is the  34 Kitwancool people, that are geographically between the  35 Nishga and the Gitksan?  36 A   Yes.  I think he groups it more with Gitksan than with  37 Nishga, doesn't he?  38 Q   Yes.  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   But so that if you're just looking in terms of  41 geographic proximity of the languages, you've got a  42 Southern Tsimshian closest to Coast Tsimshian, and  43 then as between Nishga and Gitksan, Coast Tsimshian is  44 closer to Nishga than this is to Gitksan?  45 A   Yes.  4 6 Q   And Kitwancool is somewhere in between Nishga and  47 Gitksan.  And are you aware of any of the oral 11702  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 histories of the region about the movement over the  2 grease trails of people for the Oolichan run?  3 A   Not in much detail, not in much detail.  I don't know  4 all the literature.  I've read some of the literature,  5 Tsimshianic literature.  6 Q   Now, one other thing that Swadesh says in his paper,  7 and this is at page 460 where he's talking about an  8 exception to the -- this slow rate of change that he's  9 trying to articulate mathematically on the left-hand  10 side of the page, 460, he says:  11  12 "There is one apparent exception to the slow  13 changing norm, namely, the complete displacement  14 of one language by another.  In the special case  15 of individuals or single families transplanted  16 into another speech community, the offspring may  17 grow up speaking only the new language.  When a  18 small speech community is surrounded by a larger  19 one, under certain circumstances the smaller  20 community becomes bilingual and eventually may  21 drop its original language."  22  23 Now, just stopping there, that's a description of  24 what's happened at the Gitksan-Babine-Wet'suwet'en  25 interface at Hagwilget, isn't it, that there's greater  26 bilingualism amongst the Babine-Wet'suwet'en there  27 than the Gitksan?  28 A   The asymmetrical bilingual point?  29 Q   Yes.  30 A  Well, yes, I agree with that.  31 Q   And one of the things that asymmetrical bilingualism  32 tells you that you've got to watch out for is that  33 language change may have been relatively rapid at the  34 area, may have been?  35 A   Language change or language replacement?  36 Q   Language replacement?  37 A  Who said language replacement has to be relatively  38 rapid?  Sure, Italian immigrants came to this country  39 and their children don't learn Italian, that's an  40 immigrant situation where you have language  41 replacement.  I do think we're perhaps talking about  42 two different issues.  I'm not really sure, Mr.  43 Willms, what you're trying to suggest.  44 Q   Well, I'm just —  45 A   Language change or language replacement are vastly  46 different topics.  I could address one or the other or  47 both, but I want to make sure I understand you. 11703  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  Q  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  THE COURT  23  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  THE COURT  43  A  44  THE COURT  45  A  46  47  Well, my understanding of what Swadesh is proposing is  that he is proposing, all other things being equal,  there is a constant rate of language change within a  language?  Yeah.  That's the theory.  And then what I understand he's doing here is  suggesting that there's an exception to that constant  rate of language change, that is a faster rate, and  one of those exceptions is where a small speech  community is surrounded by a larger one, and under  certain circumstances the smaller community becomes  bilingual, which I think you described as asymmetrical  bilingualism?  Well, this statement here doesn't refer to  asymmetrical bilingualism at all, it's talking about  absorption.  I mean there are many models of  interaction in language change.  In the whole field of  sociolinguistics there are many kinds of situations,  many kinds and many -- I mean this is a part of the  world where there is multi-lingualism, and there has  been for millennia.  :  Does this paragraph on page 460 describe language  replacement?  Yes.  It seems to describe language replacement, and  in a language-replacement situation not all things are  equal and not all situations are the same.  There  aren't just -- you know, there's no black and white or  one type of situation, there's all kinds of various  situations, have to do with demography, the complexity  of the language, various issues in the economy,  what -- it would create caste systems.  In India  there's a whole literature on language use in  different caste systems in India.  I don't think  Swadesh would want you to take his article and say  that we know that Gitksan has changed real rapidly or  that Babine-Wet'suwet'en has changed real rapidly,  because Rigsby and I have a position of replacive  bilingualism at the Gitksan-Athabaskan interface, and  there's no way to say that this causes rapid change in  the language or that replaces -- bilingualism is a  rapid process.  :  But replacement --  Replacement of --  :  Immigration could be one generation, couldn't it?  Immigration -- certainly the Italian immigrant, an  example, or Norwegian immigrant, for example, is a  case of rapid language replacement, so short of like 11704  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 going into a lecture on sociolinguistics and language  2 maintenance and language shift, this is a field, and I  3 don't think leaping from Swadesh and 86-percent factor  4 and a table of 97 percent means 100 years and these  5 things, and then leaping to issues about Kitwancool or  6 Gitsegukla having Athabaskan speech in 1820, I mean  7 these are interesting issues, Mr. Willms.  I don't  8 know, frankly, I'm beginning to see the relevance of  9 this to our report at all.  10 Q   Well, let's go to page 57 of your report.  This is the  11 part that you wrote?  12 A   Um-hum.  13 Q   Correct?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And you're talking about dating here, and you've got  16 Golla, Personal Communication", but then you  17 identified that what you were really referring to  18 there was Krausse and Golla, "Northern Athapaskan  19 Languages" in the volume 6 of the Smithsonian, and  20 I've just put that to you, and you can identify that?  21 A   Yes.  That's Krauss and Golla.  22 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, 881A-2.  23  24 EXHIBIT 881-2 - Tab 2 Extract from "Subarctic" -  25 Krauss and Golla  26  27 MR. WILLMS:  28 Q   Now, if I can -- if you turn to page 68 of Krauss and  29 Golla —  30 A   Yes.  That's the quote I was -- that I --  31 Q   Yeah?  32 A   That I pointed you toward on Monday, is that correct?  33 MR. WILLMS:  Yeah.  And so let's just try to tie some of these  34 dates down where you've got them.  On page 68 on the  35 left-hand side -- left-hand paragraph, in the middle  36 of the page just by the three-hole punch they say "The  37 degree of diversity" --  38 THE COURT:  Sorry, Mr. Willms.  39 MR. WILLMS:  I'm on page —  40 THE COURT:  Sorry, page 68?  41 MR. WILLMS:  42 Q   Page 68, my lord, the left-hand column, right near  43 that middle three-hole punch:  44  45 "The degree of diversity within Athapaskan  46 indicates that Proto-Athapaskan was still an  47 undifferentiated linguistic unit until 500 B.C. or 11705  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  A  23  THE  COURT:  24  25  A  26  THE  COURT:  27  A  28  29  THE  COURT:  30  A  31  32  THE  COURT:  33  34  A  35  36  37  MR.  WILLMS  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  47  later."  Correct?  Now, that's where you've got the 500 -- the  2,000-2,500 years in your report, is that right?  Yes.  And then he carries on:  "The location of this language was almost certainly  somewhere in present-day Northern Athapaskan  territory; exactly where is difficult to  determine, but some areas seem more probable than  others.  The areas of greatest (and hence oldest)  differentiation in Northern Athapaskan are in the  interior of Alaska, the Yukon, and parts of  British Columbia."  Now, just stopping right there, that I think, and  you've pointed it out on Exhibit 874 in your earlier  evidence, would be at the closest point between  British Columbia, the Yukon and Alaska, in that area,  is that correct?  Yes.  But —  He showed an area centred in what I would take to be  politically Eastern Alaska, did you not?  Including Eastern Alaska, but --  Centred in Eastern Alaska?  Not strictly.  I mean we've modelled this in terms of  small areas and large areas.  Where would you then centre it in, in the Yukon?  I don't know exactly, I don't know.  I have a couple  of theories that I entertain, and I try to be --  I looked at where you drew the line with your  pointer.  Yeah. I would draw it a small -- I would draw a small  Athapaskan homeland. If it was real small it would be  around here.  All right.  Okay.  And the centre of that is upper Tanana?  Upper Han, perhaps on the small end, and then, you  know, it would have to probably include the Tanana  River anyway.  That would be, I would say, the small  scenario, the small Proto-Athapaskan homeland  scenario, but you will see Krauss and Golla are  cautious about trying to pin it down.  There's -- you  want to see my maximum scenario, is that relevant? 11706  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   I would like to carry on with Krauss and Golla, and  2 because what Krauss and Golla say at the end of that  3 whole paragraph, the last line he says:  4  5 "Since both external connections of Athapaskan,  6 Eyak and Tlingit are in southeastern Alaska, it  7 seems most likely that the Proto-Athapaskan  8 homeland was in eastern interior Alaska, the upper  9 drainage of the Yukon River, and northern British  10 Columbia, or some part of this area."  11  12 All right.  Now, that's the broader area, correct?  13 A   Um-hum.  14 Q   All right.  Now, can you show me how broad that  15 northern --  16 A  Well, then you would have to look at this, the Alaska  17 range runs like this, right, and then you get into  18 this area here in the coastal range, so -- and  19 Tanaina, believe me, this is very interesting in this  20 problem, very very interesting, because this looks  21 like they got separated off here rather early from  22 wherever the core area was, but yeah, you would look  23 at this more or less easterly facing zone, then I  24 would be even down into Babine, so in the large  25 scenario in the -- I think Krauss and Golla are  26 hedging rather cautiously about saying whether it's  27 large or small.  28 Q   Well, they go on --  29 A   But that's -- you see, it does embrace Eyak and  30 Tlingit, you know.  31 Q   They go on in the next paragraph to say that:  32  33 "The earliest directions of Athapaskan expansion  34 were probably westward farther into Alaska and  35 southward along the interior mountains into  36 central and southern British Columbia."  37  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Correct?  Now, there's no question that when we're  40 talking about Babine-Wet'suwet'en, we're talking about  41 central British Columbia?  42 A   I guess so.  Whether Mike and Victor were looking at  43 it as central versus southern, I don't know.  44 Q   Well, if you turn to page 83, they assist us in  45 whether they were talking about -- please turn to page  46 83.  There is a section in this discussion about  47 Carrier and Babine? 11707  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 A   Um-hum.  2 Q   And you will see there they say:  3  4 "The term 'Carrier' has been used in the Twentieth  5 Century as the name of a language that includes  6 all the Athapaskan dialects of central British  7 Columbia, from the mouth of Bulkley River in the  8 northwest to the area around Quesnel on the middle  9 Fraser River in the Southeast."  10  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   So they're talking about a Proto-Athapaskan homeland  13 that is to the north of the area that you're studying  14 here, correct?  15 A   They tend to look at it that way, but nobody's laughed  16 me out of court about my view on it either, so you  17 know, we have a dialogue about this amongst  18 colleagues.  We're fascinated by this, we do not know  19 the answer, but like I say, my position in our paper  20 under -- in Rigsby-Kari as well as Hargus -- Kari and  21 Hargus is the Babine-Wet'suwet'en, if it is not in the  22 Proto-Athapaskan homeland, is a very early southern  23 perimeter of the Proto-Athapaskan homeland, and so I  24 don't think we're saying -- and the Krauss and Golla  25 have said that they would rule out the possibility  26 that Babine-Wet'suwet'en is in the Proto-Athapaskan  27 homeland.  That does remain a very likely possibility,  28 especially if you take the long Proto-Athapaskan  29 homeland, say a 1,500-mile zone type of  30 Proto-Athapaskan homeland, which is probably going to  31 make the most sense in terms of archaeological  32 correlations to -- on the other hand, even in that  33 model you could see the more southerly portions along  34 Proto-Athapaskan homelands would, logically speaking,  35 have to be occupied in some point in successive  36 stages.  That's -- we get into some of this relative  37 relationship between Tahltan and Sekani, which we were  38 commenting on in our paper, and I think Miss Mandell  39 was -- I did address it when Miss Mandell was leading  40 my testimony, that it does seem quite striking to us  41 the Alaskan congrueties of Babine and Wet'suwet'en  42 which are minus Tahltan-Sekani, they're absent in  43 Tahltan-Sekani, that does say something about timing,  44 but go ahead, Mr. Willms.  45 Q   Can you turn to page 70 of this -- this is where the  46 authors, page 70 of Krauss and Golla, there -- the  47 four maps that they've done comparing various 1170?  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Proto-Athapaskan languages, I take it?  2 A   Um-hum.  3 Q   But you will see that the areas that you are giving  4 evidence about are represented by B and C, B for  5 Babine and C for Carrier?  6 A   Yes, sir.  7 Q   And then immediately, I suppose it looks like to the  8 west and north, there is "Ts", that's Tsetsaut?  9 A   I think that's correct, yes.  10 Q   Tsetsaut?  And that's consistent with the map, Exhibit  11 875, which shows -- or is it consistent?  12 A   It's generally consistent, not necessarily in all fine  13 detail, sir.  Would you like me to explain more about  14 the maps or anything on page 70?  15 Q   No.  I just wanted to point out that the Tsetsaut were  16 there.  Now, the next -- and I want to get back to  17 Swadesh.  Have you -- you're aware of the "Note on  18 Athapaskan Glottochronology" by Dr. Hymes, 1957, in  19 the International Journal of American Linguistics?  20 A   It's been a long time since I've read this, but yes  21 sir, I know -- I know Del's work very well.  22 Q   And you know that this work applies the Swadesh list  23 and the Swadesh -- and in fact, it does more than  24 apply it, it refines it for Athapaskan languages?  25 A   Yes.  But it's been completely dismissed, Krauss '73  26 has a whole review of the use of lexicostatistics and  27 glottochronology in Athapaskan.  He does, of course,  28 cite this article.  Krauss 1973 -- there's a whole  29 subsection in Krauss 1973 in this literature, the  30 Hoijer literature, Hoijer and Hymes did some go around  31 about this in the 50's.  32 MR. WILLMS:  All right.  881-3, my lord.  33 THE COURT:  Yes,  34 THE REGISTRAR:  881A-3.  35 MR. WILLMS:  881A-3.  3 6    THE COURT:  Yes.  37  38 EXHIBIT 881A-3 - "Notes and Reviews" D.H. Hymes  39  40 MR. WILLMS:  41 Q   If you turn to page 293 of this, and I don't want to  42 go through the calculations because there are three  43 different calculations that Dr. Hymes does on this.  4 4 A   Um-hum.  45 Q   Is that --  he does -- he calculates dates three  46 different ways, using the Swadesh methodology for  47 divergence? 11709  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   All right.  And then he comes to page 2 93, where he  3 sets out the time depth of the various Athapaskan  4 speaking groups?  5 A   Um-hum.  6 Q   And in particular in talking about the most distant  7 pair of languages on 293 says this in the last  8 paragraph on the right-hand side, and refers directly  9 to Swadesh:  10  11 "Probably the most distant pair of languages gives  12 the best estimate of the total time depth of the  13 entire family.  This pair is Mattole-Kutchin."  14  15 Just stopping there, can you tell me geographically  16 where those two are?  17 A  Mattole is — you don't pronounce — it's M-A-T-T-0 —  18 -- Mattole is the -- Mattole is on this map down there  19 somewhere.  You might see it, it's on the coast here.  20 Q   Mattole is on the coast?  21 A   In northern California.  22 Q   On Exhibit 875 just to the south of Eureka,  23 California?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Right.  That's one of them, and the other one is  26 Kutchin, K-u-t-c-h-i-n?  27 A   That's up north here.  28 Q   If you go to Exhibit 874, that's in Alaska?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And through this lexicostatistical method Dr. Hymes  31 calculates the time depth of 1,582 years with various  32 ranges of the refinement, but then says this:  33  34 "The upper limit of the range of error at the  35 9/10 level just touches 2000 years."  36  37 Okay, as the time depth between those two.  Now, what  38 Krauss and Golla say in their paper is that the time  39 depth between Proto-Athapaskan is 2,000 to 2,500  40 years, is that right?  41 A   Before dispersal, not in an upward limits, but yes,  42 when there was still a unified Athapaskan language.  43 It's not that long ago, that's why these languages are  4 4 so similar.  45 Q   Yes.  But that's not -- I mean that's not bad compared  46 to Dr. Hymes here, is it?  47 A   It's not bad or — 11710  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   Well, Krauss and Golla say, and I --  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   They said 500 B.C. or later?  4 A   Yeah.  5 Q   And he gives an upper limit of 2,000 years?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Scientifically?  8 A   Similar results.  9 Q   They're in the same range?  10 A   Similar results, yes.  11 Q   Yes.  Notwithstanding that you say that this method --  12 sorry, this is the same method that Story used in  13 1984?  14 A   Yes, on I think 72 items of the 100-word list, only 72  15 of the 100 items, if I'm correct, maybe 76, I forget  16 exactly.  17 Q   Now, can you explain, if you put aside this method of  18 time dating, the statistical method of time dating,  19 like carbon-14 dating, how you date language  20 diversity?  21 A   Through experience in other parts of the world where  22 there are, you know, roughly similar versus roughly  23 different degrees of language divergence, it's an  24 educated guess that of course -- in other words,  25 Krauss' educated guess is more accurate than the  26 statistical compilation based on 100 words only.  27 Krauss' educated guess is much broader, it deals with  28 all sorts of grammatical markers, various notions of  29 relative diversity.  It is a more sophisticated  30 estimate, although it might make some people  31 uncomfortable to realize it is a judgment call, but  32 it -- we have a very homogenious language family that  33 was together for a long period of time in the north,  34 and then we had some branching out, migrations  35 apparently, and probably more than that too in terms  36 of non-surviving Athapaskan languages that I mentioned  37 say maybe in Nebraska or Wyoming, in those areas.  38 Q   The idea, because this lexicostatistical dating was to  39 move away from having a feel for the date and being  40 able to say with some sort of scientific certainty  41 that that's the date?  42 A   Yes, yes.  And now people that gave up the ghost, and  43 they don't do it.  It's a bit anachronistic for Story  44 to do it, although she did it, and she comes up with a  45 result.  That really doesn't prove much when people  46 can be neighbours for 5,000 years and 4,000 years and  47 2,000 years, and there's lots of ways that that can 11711  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 either decelerate or accelerate language change, so  2 our -- or I think the position of making an educated  3 estimate is more precise than doing a 100-word list  4 calculation.  5 Q   I'm showing you "Time Perspective In Aboriginal  6 american Culture:  A Study in Method", by Sapir.  You  7 mentioned this before, didn't you?  8 A   Yes.  And please, I complement you again on your  9 preparation, this is really a good source, and I'm  10 impressed that you've gotten to these things.  11 MR. WILLMS:  Exhibit 881-4, my lord.  12 THE COURT:  Yes.  13 EXHIBIT 881A-4 - "Time Perspective Paper" - Edward  14 Sapir  15  16 MR. WILLMS:  17 Q   Now, of course Sapir wrote this before  18 lexicostatistical dating was developed by Swadesh,  19 correct?  20 A   Yes; who was a student of Sapir's.  21 Q   Yes.  So at the time this is written, and there's a  22 comment that Dr. Sapir makes that I would like to take  23 you to, but I think that should be borne in mind, if  24 you turn to page 392, in his introduction on dating,  25 he says, and it's that paragraph beginning "Before",  26 and I won't read that first -- the first two sentences  27 about history, but he says this:  28  29 "First of all, we shall to only a very limited  30 extent expect to construct an absolute chronology,  31 that is assign anything like definite dates.  In  32 some cases we shall be satisfied with an  33 approximate date, a margin of error being allowed  34 that may vary from a few years to several  35 centuries, or, in the remoter past, even  36 millennia.  In still other, perhaps the majority,  37 of cases, we shall be content to dispense with the  38 assignment of dates altogether and shall aim  39 merely to establish a definite sequence  40 of events."  41  42 Now, just stopping there, the sequence of events is  43 the relative dating?  44 A   The relative dating.  45 Q   And what Swadesh was trying to do was to, through  46 mathematical model, tie down the relative dating?  47 A   Yes, exactly. 11712  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   All right.  But at the time of this article by Dr.  2 Sapir nobody had come up with that yet?  3 A  Well, yes.  4 MR. WILLMS:  Now, Dr. Sapir sets out -- he breaks it down into  5 three -- two types of evidence for time perspective,  6 direct and inferential.  7 THE COURT:  Are you going to be some time with this?  8 MR. WILLMS:  I will, my lord.  9 THE COURT:  I think we might adjourn now.  I don't want to  10 interrupt anybody, because you said Swadesh tried  11 mathematically to tie down, what was it, actual dates  12 or --  13 MR. WILLMS:  Relative dating, my lord.  14 THE COURT:  Well, we had before that the sequence or relative  15 dates were, I thought, in contra-distinction to the  16 mathematical formula of Swadesh in your questioning.  17 MR. WILLMS:  No.  It's just that the margin of error, Swadesh,  18 through his mathematical method is --  19 THE COURT:  So your question was, to which the witness agreed,  20 was that Swadesh tried mathematically to tie down  21 these relative dates?  22 MR. WILLMS:  Yes.  23 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  Two o'clock.  24 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until two.  25  2 6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:30)  27  28 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  29 a true and accurate transcript of the  30 proceedings herein transcribed to the  31 best of my skill and ability  32  33  34  35 Graham D. Parker  36 Official Reporter  37 United Reporting Services Ltd.  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 11713  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AFTER LUNCHEON RECESS)  3  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Willms.  5 MR. WILLMS:  6 Q   Dr. Kari, you got the Sapir piece in front of you?  7 A   Yes, sir.  8 THE COURT:  I'm sorry?  Oh, Sapir, yes.  9 MR. WILLMS:  10 Q   Thank you.  881-A-4, Dr. Sapir.  What Dr. Sapir does  11 here is discusses some direct evidence for time  12 perspective, and if you turn to page 394 of the  13 extract that I have given you, he sets out his types  14 of -- he starts setting out types, and the first type  15 at page 394 is documentary evidence, and he says the  16 first type is that yielded by historical documents.  17 Now, that's direct historical evidence for time  18 perspective, right?  19 And then the next direct evidence, and this is  20 over at the page at 395 under "native testimony", he  21 says:  22  23 "A second type of direct evidence is formed  24 by statements, whether as formal legends or  25 personal information regarding the age or  26 relative sequence of events in trible  27 history made by the native themselves.  28 Statements of this sort have been often  29 recorded for earlier trible movements but  30 are also forthcoming in considerable  31 quantity for the origin and spread of  32 cultural features.  When they refer to the  33 distant pass, they must be handled with a  34 good deal of reserve, for experience shows  35 that the historical and mythical merge  36 inextricably beyond a certain point."  37  38 Just stopping there.  That's been your experience  39 as well, isn't it?  40 A  Well, not entirely, I guess.  I have a recent book of  41 mine, Kari (1986), in which I make a statement there  42 that I can -- that I have some markers in terms of  43 their language of what constitutes non-fiction and  44 fiction in their language.  This is in Alaska.  So I  45 wouldn't say they always intermix or merge  46 inextricably after a point in time.  I guess that's  47 true in a general sense, but I certainly have a sense 11714  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  in Alaska, when I have done a series of stories that I  can, like, do a cronology within the series of  stories, and I have done that.  And it's really quite  distant past.  I'm sure some of the stories it seemed  to be the oldest.  So it doesn't mean you can't get  pretty far back in time by -- in fact you can, you  know.  Maybe the oldest story there is only 2,000  years old, maybe it's 3,000 years old.  I can't say.  But there is a relative chronology of 21 stories I did  in Kari (1986).  Q   And so to that extent you would say that maybe Dr.  Sapir was being too conservative?  A  Well, he -- yes, a little -- I mean, they are doing  exciting things with Polynesia narrative apparently  and so forth, so it's -- but I don't take issue with  what he says either.  Q   The third type of direct evidence that's cited is at  page 397, and that's archaeological evidence.  A   Yes.  Q   And then after that, which starts on the next page,  and although I haven't reproduced it before you, he  then goes through inferential evidence for time  perspective, including linguistics.  A   Uh-huh.  Q   As being inferential.  Is that correct?  A   Yes.  Q   Yes.  Now, the one within the inferential section, he  has a bit on place names.  A   Uh-huh.  Q   Which is at page 436 in the section that I've -- the  extract that I've given you.  And he says this at page  436.  "The analysis of place names is frequently a  valuable means ..."  THE COURT: I'm sorry, what page?  MR. WILLMS:  436, My Lord.  THE COURT: Of Sapir?  MR. WILLMS:  Of Sapir.  THE COURT: Oh, yes.  All right.  Yes, I have it.  MR. WILLMS:  It's under place names, My Lord.  THE COURT: Yes.  You haven't given me the whole article?  MR. WILLMS:  No, I haven't.  It's a very long article, My Lord.  "The analysis of place names is frequently a  valuable means of ascertaining whether 11715  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 people have been long settled in a  2 particular region or not.  The longer a  3 country has been occupied, the more do the  4 names of its topographical features and  5 villages tend to become purely conventional  6 and to lose what descriptive meaning they  7 originally possessed."  8  9 And then in footnote 24 he says:  10  11 "Note:  the more or less transparent  12 analysis of such names of cities in America  13 as New York, Philadelphia, Washington, New  14 Orleans, Indianapolis, St.  Louis, San  15 Francisco, Buffalo, as contrasted  16 with such at present meaningless European  17 names as London, Paris, York, Leeds, Rouen,  18 Rheims, Rome, Naples."  19  20 Now, that's an acceptable method of some sort of  21 relative inferential dating, isn't it?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   All right.  So that when you have names like people of  24 a lake or people of a stream, those are kind of  25 conventional -- those are descriptive of topographical  26 features, correct?  Those will be less old than names  27 for which no, let's say, topographical description can  2 8 be found?  29 A   Yes, where the etymology is not transparent I think is  30 the -- what you would --  31 Q   I would like to turn to the conclusion of Dr. Sapir on  32 method.  He says, and this is his discussion of the  33 direct historical approach versus the inferential  34 method, which included the linguistic method, that's  35 the inferential method, and he says on page 460 in  36 that second paragraph under "Concluding Remarks on  37 Method":  38  39 "A possible impression that may have been  40 left in the mind of the reader is that I  41 attach an exaggerated importance to the  42 historical value of purely inferential  43 evidence as contrasted with the more obvious  44 direct evidence derived from a study of  45 datable documents and from stratigraphic  46 archaeology.  Such an impression is  47 certainly not intended.  I would not dispute 11716  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 for an instant the general superiority of  2 direct to inferential evidence in the  3 establishment of culture sequences,  4 but have made it more particularly my aim to  5 show in what way, in the absence or dearth  6 of direct evidence, the inferential data may  7 be made to yield historical perspectives."  8  9 Now, would you accept that when you have a -- some  10 direct evidence versus some inferential evidence, it's  11 more likely that the direct evidence is more reliable?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   So that when you have got archaeological evidence on  14 the one hand and linguistic evidence on the other hand  15 and you are dealing with an issue of time depth, it's  16 likely that the archaeological evidence will be more  17 reliable?  18 A  More reliable for what?  19 Q   Time dating.  20 A  Well, yes, in a -- yes, we have no metric or measure  21 analogous to archaeological dating in their field,  22 such as carbon-14 dating, which is -- of course that's  23 since the 1950's, isn't it.  24 Q   That was the attempt on Lexicostatistics?  25 A   Uh-huh.  26 Q   And I think you said that that attempt was pretty  27 well -- I don't know if these were your words, but  28 shot down by Krauss in his 1973 work?  29 A   Yes, I think he has a balanced treatment of it in our  30 field.  31 Q   I am showing you current trends in linguistics, 1973,  32 and the portion that I have given you is from Michael  33 Krauss.  This is the 1973 work that you cited in your  34 paper?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And I should say I have just given you the first page  37 of that -- the portion by Krauss, and then the section  38 on glottochronology from page 950 through to 953.  You  39 recognize that?  4 0 A   Uh-huh.  41 Q   You have to say "yes" or "no" for the reporter.  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And in fact this was the work that Krauss referred to  44 in Krauss and Golla in dating the divergence of  45 Proto-Athabaskan?  46 A   The Krauss and Golla cite is?  47 Q   Yes. 11717  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   So let's go to glottochronology, and starting at the  3 bottom of page 950 Krauss says:  4  5 "At the end of his 'Pacific Coast Athabaskan  6 discovered to be Chilcotin' John P.  7 Harrington makes the following negative  8 statement, very remarkable for it's date.  9 'Conversion of linguistic change into  10 chronology:  One may ask  ... the practical  11 question:  How long have the Chilcotin  12 languages been developing asunder?  To this  13 question no answer can probably be given.  14 Linguistic change has had for various  15 features various and varying rates and no  16 amount of study will convert as a whole the  17 duration of the linguistic change  18 Sundering these languages to time reckoning,  19 even to the extent of a good guess."  20  21 Now, there the quote mark stops, and that's the  22 end of Krauss's quote --  23 A   Of Harrington.  24 Q   -- of Harrington.  Then Krauss carries on:  25  26 "As if to challenge this statement, there  27 developed since 1951 the following  28 literature on Athapaskan and Na-Dene  29 lexicostatistics and glottochronology,  30 listed together here in order of  31 appearance:"  32  33 And then there is a long list, and you will see,  34 for example, on the list Swadesh's article or  35 lexicostatistical dating, and you will see, if you go  36 down to -- I think it's and Hoijer and Hymes, Dell  37 Hymes on lexicostatistical dating.  And then on the  38 next page, and I won't go through it, but Dr. Krauss  39 talks about the history of lexicostatistical dating  40 and some bouncing around for the divergence of  41 Proto-Athabaskan.  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   But at the bottom of the page, page 952, he starts up  44 again, really starting up from his last  45 lexicostatistical reference, which is number 19 on the  46 page before.  47 A   Uh-huh. 1171?  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   And he says:  2  3 "By 1963 Hoijer told Krauss ..."  4  5 A   Hoijer.  6 Q "Hoijer told Krauss personal communication  7 that he was thoroughly discouraged with  8 glottochronology and further repudiated new  9 dates, as new data from the North and Alaska  10                        were yielding absurdly deep divergence."  11  12 Now, just pausing there.  Does that mean to say  13 absurdly old dates?  14 A   Of the larger, yes.  15 Q   Yes.  16  17 "Part of this disenchantment is unjustified  18 in that the Alaskan materials were collected  19 by investigators who were not trained in  20 linguistics or in Athapaskan, with the  21 result that there was far less uniformity in  22 style of elicitation and, especially, far  23 less communication between informant and  24 investigator as to what was wanted.  Krauss  25 has remarked ..."  26  27 That's the author speaking here.  28  29 "... that glottochronology is simply a  30 means for the linguist to quantify precisely  31 the degree to which he subjectively believes  32 or wishes the language to be related.  That  33 by knowing the list and the potential  34 responses to it in the languages of the  35 family quite well, he can consciously or  36 unconsciously have considerable control over  37 the outcome from the way he elicits from the  38 informant and from the way he judges  39 cognation, and, of course, from the formula  40 he choses to convert to time depth."  41  42 Now, just pausing there.  That formula is the  43 Swadesh formula or a variation thereof, correct?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   Yes.  46  47 "Krauss, having experimented several times 11719  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 consistently comes up with a maximum  2 divergence within Athapaskan of 2400 plus or  3 minus 500 years, and between Athapaskan and  4 Eyak of 3400 plus or minus 500 years."  5  6 And just stopping there.  That's where Krauss and  7 Golla get the date which you referred to in this  8 report, correct?  9 A  Well, that's -- they don't say that they got that date  10 from glottochronology.  Glottochronology happens when  11 Krauss controls it to be an independent and similar  12 result.  13 Q   Yes.  But he used it?  14 A   No, he didn't.  I mean, he uses it -- sure, he did it,  15 but he doesn't say that that's how he -- he does not  16 say that the method works, especially when you start  17 dealing with the question that Tlingit only has eight  18 of the 100 -- I mean, this is an important point.  19 Says Tlingit has eight of the 100 words that might be  20 cognate, then even are those words even cognate.  21 Those words have some possibility of even being  22 non-cognate words that are accidentally similar.  So  23 Krauss is very cautious and conservative.  When he  24 makes an estimate of 2400 plus or minus 500 in several  25 different articles of his, he is not going to say I  26 only did it because the 100-word list got me that  27 figure, no.  No.  Am I making myself clear, Your  28 Lordship?  2 9    THE COURT:  Yes.  30 THE WITNESS:  I mean, Krauss does have many other ways of  31 enriching the dating figure without relying strictly  32 on a 100 words in each language.  33 MR. WILLMS:  34 Q   Can we -- let's go back to page 57 of your report, and  35 let's just keep Krauss handy here.  36 A   Okay.  37 Q   All right.  Now, on page 57 of your report, the part  38 that you wrote yourself.  39 A   Uh-huh.  40 Q   Exhibit 877, you in the second paragraph there is a  41 reference to Golla P-C, and I thought you said in your  42 earlier evidence that that's a reference to Krauss and  43 Golla, which we have now marked --  44 A   Uh-huh.  45 Q   — as Exhibit 881-A-2?  46 A   The 1981 article, yes.  47 Q   The 1981 article. 11720  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, it's 881?  2 MR. WILLMS:  8 81-A-2.  3 A  As well as personal communication.  4 Q   All right.  So that's where you got that date?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   Now, can you go to 8 81-A-2.  And you recall that on  7 page -- on page 61, which is the third page of the  8 photocopy, the portion that I put to you on dating.  9 MS. MANDELL:  What page?  10 THE COURT:  68.  11 MR. WILLMS:  It's on page 68.  12 Q   Put to you the portion that says:  13  14 "The degree of diversity with Athapaskan  15 indicates that Proto-Athabaskan was still  16 non-differentiated linguistic unit until 500  17 BC or later."  18  19 And the cite there is Krauss (1973) page 953.  2 0 A   Uh-huh.  21 Q   Right.  Now, if we go to "Current Trends in  22 Linguistics", that is Krauss (1973), and the part that  23 I read to you is 953.  24 A   Yes, sir.  25 Q   So this is where your date came from?  26 A  Well, there is other places this is published as well.  27 This is not the only place he's published those dates,  28 and it's not strictly based on a 100-word list.  The  29 100-word list sort of independently confirms it.  It  30 looks, you know, like a reasonable fit for the method,  31 but it's not the only way that Krauss comes up with  32 that date.  It's not -- he is not slavishly relying on  33 the Swadesh list to produce that date.  Not at all.  34 Not at all.  And, you know, I mean, he's my closest  35 colleague, and I know his feelings on these things,  36 and he doesn't recommend that people -- especially  37 shallow time depths assume that there are all these  38 rigid pre-proto or meso-language stage and  39 intermediate stage that allow branching and branching.  40 And in fact the major thrust of Krauss (1973) is his  41 critique of his of the Stammbaum approach in  42 historical linguistics, which is the tree -- a rigid  43 tree branching off a tree.  That's S-t-a-m-m-b-a-u-m.  44 The Stammbaum method in historical linguistics.  45 In fact, if you have read all of Krauss '73, the  46 whole article, he takes issue with Hoijer quite  47 extensively on those kind of issues, on those kind of 11721  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 things on essentially the obsolete nature of the  2 family tree approach for Athabaskan.  3 Q   Even if he didn't rely on it directly, he got a great  4 deal of comfort from that, didn't he?  That's pretty  5 clear?  6 A   Comfort?  7 Q   Yes.  From the glottochronology.  8 A  Well, from knowing Dr. Krauss as well as I do, I  9 didn't place it in the least.  It's a non-issue to  10 him.  11 Q   Once again, glottochronology is something that Story  12 used to date the divergence of  13 Proto-Babine-Wet'suwet'en at 310 years?  14 A   No, Proto-Babine-Carrier, not  15 Proto-Babine-Wet'suwet'en in Story.  P-B-C is the  16 abbreviation she uses.  You understand, she was saying  17 that Carrier and Babine-Wet'suwet'en could be lumped  18 under -- in a branch on a tree at 310 years ago, which  19 is to most of us a very rigid sort of notion of the  20 possibilities, really.  Especially why not  21 Proto-Babine-Carrier-Chilcotin, why didn't she  22 consider that?  You see what I mean?  Why didn't she  23 consider that Proto-Babine-Carrier-Chilcotin.  You  24 have to start looking at why you draw a tree with two  25 together but not three or even four, and then you are  26 really in a lot of trouble in trying to date  27 Athabaskan languages from glottochronology.  I hope I  28 am making myself clear on that.  29 Q   But without glottochronology you are in a lot more  30 trouble trying to date them, aren't you?  31 A   No.  In terms of relative chronology we can make some  32 interesting judgments that -- and evaluations, such as  33 we did about Sekani and Tahltan obviously having a  34 long-term history with each other and having easterly  35 origin vocabulary and morphemic features that might  36 suggest an easterly to westerly movement in northern  37 British Columbia.  I mean, I think we have a lot of  38 interesting things that emerge from our language data  39 that I am not saying is the last word by any means.  40 It's just part of a larger picture.  It is a mosaic of  41 information, very complicated data sets in different  42 languages.  The high bush cranberry (?) example I  43 mentioned the other day.  I mean, I am trying to  44 communicate as best I can some of the technical  45 features of our field.  I mean, we have lots of  46 interesting issues in comparative Athabaskan  47 biogeography and enviromental data that are real 11722  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 interesting, so glottochronology doesn't help very  2 much for anybody, or doesn't give anybody much  3 comfort.  It's a method, you know, and when you work  4 out the results there, they are sometimes mildly  5 interesting for different reasons.  6 MR. WILLMS:   My Lord, could we mark the Krauss extract 881-A-5.  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  8  9 (EXHIBIT 8 81-A-5 - KRAUSS EXTRACT)  10  11 THE COURT:  Before you go on, could I be given a concise  12 definition of glottochronology?  13 THE WITNESS:  Glottochronology is definitely using that metric  14 in the Swadesh article that says that language is  15 changed at a constant rate and that -- universally,  16 and that by using those tables, like Mr. Willms  17 produced, you could say 95 percent cognation of a 100  18 words might mean, what was it a 100 a century?  That  19 sort of thing.  And that it works back in time that 90  20 percent cognation, 70 percent cognation gives you a  21 valid date.  22 Now, there is a difference between  23 lexicostatistics and glottochronology.  24 Lexicostatistics is much a broader thing of  25 statistical analysis of vocabulary.  It isn't  26 necessarily limited to the 100-word list at all, but  27 could use other numerical techniques as -- such as  28 biologists might use too in their field or something  29 like that.  So -- and I -- please don't assume I am a  30 real expert on the subject of lexicostatistics or  31 glottochronology either.  Just trying to, you know,  32 present some of my understanding of it.  33 THE COURT:  Well, are there scholars in your field who tend to  34 favour the glottochronology or lingual statistic  35 approach to your study, and others in your field like  36 yourself who do not follow that approach?  37 THE WITNESS:  Well, broadly speaking in American Indian  38 linguistics or where, you know, not just Athabaskan,  39 but very few people use glottochronology or publish it  40 in their articles or anything.  Very few.  It's not  41 the statistical methods aren't valid.  Dyen of the  42 Dyen and Aberle combination, Isadore Dyen is famous  43 for doing lexicostatistic studies on all the  44 Austronesian languages, and he does try out other  45 methods that are much more broad than the Swadesh too.  46 I mean, nobody's disparaging Swadesh either.  It's a  47 noticeable and facinating effort that -- and say this 11723  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 man Dyen, D-y-e-n, is a leading figure in Austronesian  2 and he, for example, is very much into  3 lexicostatistics, but he himself would be very  4 cautious about the original claims of the Swadesh  5 method.  6 THE COURT:  So Swadesh hasn't been completely disgraced or  7 rejected?  8 THE WITNESS:   Well, in fact there is some interesting academic  9 history where he was disgraced and rejected at the  10 time of his death.  See, he did have a proto-world  11 hypothesis, a proto-human language hypothesis that he  12 published.  It actually came out posthumously, and a  13 lot of people think he kind of went off the deep end.  14 The Basque Dene hypothesis that Basque is related to  15 as Athabaskan.  16 THE COURT:  Who is related?  17 THE WITNESS:   Basque in Spain.  B-a-s-q-u-e.  18 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  19 THE WITNESS:   And he had a Basque Dene hypothesis, you know,  20 that he thought he had a statistical handle on.  And  21 most people felt that when Swadesh started doing some  22 of these studies, like with Eskimos and stuff, that he  23 was sort of, you know, kind of, you know, sweetening  24 up the pot in different ways and judgments he would  25 make about cognation.  And so there is a lot of  26 academic history about Swadesh, but --  27 Q   Is that kind of similar to the Hoijer's disenchantment  28 because of the absurdly deep divergence?  29 A   I think that's sort of like the Hoijer view is more,  30 you know, it's -- it's not that -- there isn't  31 something that kind of works about it in a certain  32 way, but the thing is you turn these dates out into a  33 conference, say, full of people coming in to hear your  34 paper, and then they go out and say gee, a 100-word  35 list in 700 years or 1,200 years and, you know, other  36 people get kind of a confused picture of what language  37 relationships must be like, and furthermore it doesn't  38 assume that languages abruptly diverge in a branching  39 fashion.  And Mike Krauss's alternative is this wave  40 model of linguistics diversion where there is some  41 branching, but plenty of opportunity for recontact and  42 reborrowing and innovation, independent innovation, in  43 some cases mutual innovation, such as our table six is  44 trying to say about Babine-Wet'suwet'en and Central  45 Carrier.  Our table six is certainly more  46 sophisticated than a 100-word list would bring us in  47 terms of comparing Babine with a Wet'suwet'en.  I 11724  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 mean, it's profoundly more complex than -- and there  2 is nothing wrong with Story trying it out.  It's a  3 good exercise, you know.  4 Q   Will you turn in your report to page 60.  5 THE COURT:  60.  6 MR. WILLMS:  Page 60, My Lord, in Exhibit 877.  7 THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.  8 MR. WILLMS:  9 Q   You start -- and this is the final chapter written by  10 you and Dr. Rigsby, your conclusions.  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   It starts with the study of how languages borrow from  13 and influence one another sheds much light on cultural  14 contact between societies.  And that's your starting  15 point, and then you discuss through the bulk of the  16 chapter loan words, borrowed words.  17 A   Uh-huh.  18 Q   Correct?  19 A   Uh-huh.  20 Q   And then at the end of the chapter on page 68, after  21 discussing these loan words and borrowing, you say  22 that:  23  24 "The linguistic evidence points to long and  25 intimate contact between the Gitksan and  2 6 Wet'suwet'en."  27  28 Now, just dealing with the word itself.  You will  29 agree that the fact that a word is borrowed doesn't in  30 itself date the relationship between the languages?  31 A   Not one word.  32 Q   Not one word.  Correct.  And so that's why, for  33 example, if you look and if you can recall it, that's  34 fine, if not, we can go to it, but you have pointed  35 out that a Gitksan and Nisga'a word for moose is  36 borrowed from the Sekani.  37 A  Well, that's somewhat debateable, but which --  38 Q   Maybe we will look at it.  39 A  Which language loaned it to whom, because Xeda is also  40 in Babine-Wet'suwet'en and in Central Carrier and in  41 Sekani, and I think it's in at least in those three  42 languages.  I'm not sure about beaver.  43 THE COURT:  How do you spell that word please, Xeda?  44 THE WITNESS:   X-e-d-a.  45 MR. WILLMS:  46 Q   Can you please turn to appendix H.  That's tab -- at  47 tab 3, Exhibit 878. 11725  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 A   Uh-huh.  2 Q   And it's page 4 of appendix H.  The easiest way, I  3 think, to get to it, Dr. Kari, is to go to the back  4 and then just work back into page 4.  That is to the  5 back of tab three.  And you will see there you got two  6 words for moose.  The first word for moose you have  7 set it out there, and I am not going to repeat it, and  8 you say this:  9  10 "Story identifies this as a loan from  11 Sekani."  12  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And, now, how do you say that next word that you have  15 got there?  16 A  Moose.  I guess it's a loan from English.  17 Q   A loan from English.  Is more common now in Gitksan  18 and Nisga'a.  Its immediate source is English moose,  19 but it is originally from some Algonquian language in  20 the east.  Now, if we knew that moose were not present  21 in the Skeena, lower Skeena drainage until historic  22 times.  23 A   Uh-huh.  24 Q   We can assume that the word was borrowed in historic  25 times.  Is that a fair way of tying in something that  26 we know with the borrowing of the word?  27 A  Well, I defer to you, sir.  You may know about this  28 migrations in moose, and I certainly don't know all  29 the history or if -- how recent moose are considered  30 to be, and that's possible that you could date it in a  31 relative sense that the moose showed up and the Sekani  32 had a word and then the Babine-Wet'suwet'en borrowed  33 it from the Sekani and when they showed up, yes.  Do  34 you know about that sort of data about moose?  35 Q   Well, we have had evidence in this case.  36 A   Yes, okay.  I don't know about it.  37 Q   Can you agree with me that the simplest kind of  38 influence that one language may exert on another is  39 the borrowing of words?  40 A   The simplest kind of evidence?  41 Q   Influence.  The simplest kind of influence that one  42 language may exert on another is the borrowing of  43 words?  44 A   Is that a quote or --  45 Q   Well, do you agree with that or not?  46 A   I'm not sure I agree.  I suppose -- you're saying  47 simpler than phonological borrowing or -- I don't 11726  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 think anybody would make such a statement that lexico  2 borrowing is simpler than other kinds of borrowing and  3 linguistic borrowing in other areas.  I'm not sure --  4 I don't strongly disagree either, but it's one kind of  5 way that languages do change, they borrow words from  6 other languages.  7 Q   Well —  8 A   But that's lexico borrowing versus phonological  9 borrowing and things -- that's what I am, if anything,  10 conscious of trying to think about.  Going back to  11 Bloomfield?  12 Q   I would like you to go back to page 60 of your report,  13 and at page 60 of your report --  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And page 60 of your report you quote.  16 A   I quote Sapir, yes.  17 Q   Pages 195 to 196.  18 A   Yes, sir.  19 Q   And so I have given you 192 and 193 here.  This is  20 somebody that you referred to and relied on in writing  21 this report.  22 A   Sapir's language, of course.  Well, everybody relies  23 on this in this field.  I mean, that's so basic to  24 beginning linguistics.  This classic book from 1921  25 has not gone out of date and has never been out of  26 print.  27 Q   Dr. Sapir here says on page 193.  2 8 A   Uh-huh.  29 Q "The simplest kind of influence that one  30 language may exert on another is the  31 borrowing of words."  32  33 A   Okay, you quoted Sapir.  I didn't know you were  34 quoting Sapir.  I thought it was a rather interesting  35 statement you were just making for me, and --  36 Q   You agree with that, though?  37 A   Yes, I guess so, if Sapir said it, I agree.  38 Q   Right.  And then he says:  39  40 "When there is cultural borrowing, there is  41 always the likelihood that the associated  42 words may be borrowed too."  43  44 A   Okay.  45 Q   Correct?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Now, cultural borrowing is not simply language 11727  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 borrowing, it's borrowing of the culture, right?  2 A  Well, yes, in various ways, yes.  3 Q   And what Dr. Sapir here is saying is that when you --  4 when you have cultural borrowing, you also have a  5 likelihood that the words associated with that culture  6 will be borrowed as well?  7 A  Maybe in an unique area like cedar trees in -- or --  8 Q   Now, at page 65 of your report.  9 A   Tab 3.  10 Q   Tab 2, 65.  You say in the last paragraph.  11 A   Uh-huh.  12 Q  13 "The greatest amount of borrowing, however,  14 is found in the Wet'suwet'en loan words that  15 relate directly to social organization,  16 specifically the feast."  17  18 A   Uh-huh.  19 Q   Now, applying what Dr. Sapir has said.  2 0 A   Uh-huh.  21 Q   That's an indication to you that not only have the  22 words been borrowed but the social organization?  23 A   I qualified this yesterday, Mr. Willms, or Tuesday.  I  24 tried to say in my testimony that as we learn more  25 about the realm of social organization in  26 Babine-Wet'suwet'en, only a small percentage of those  27 are actual borrowed words, and the largest percentage  28 of them represent innovations based on native  29 Babine-Wet'suwet'en lexicon.  30 So they didn't borrow all these words.  They have  31 their own word, like adaawk is Kenq'e, and that's  32 K-e-n-q apostrophe e.  It has -- it has a similar  33 function for the Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  I'm sure -- I'm  34 not sure how you have been spelling the term adaawk,  35 but you see what I mean.  You could -- you could say  36 that Babine-Wet'suwet'en borrowed the concept of that  37 adaawk genre and called it Kenq'e, would you agree to  38 that sort of statement, because I wouldn't agree to  39 that at all.  It's very possible that Kenq'e -- I  40 mean, that means on the music or on the songs.  Ken is  41 song and "q'e" is on.  So it's an interesting word,  42 and I certainly couldn't claim that Gitksan had adaawk  43 long before the simple Athabaskan showed up and then  44 the simple Athabaskan showed up and thought up of a  45 word Kenq'e.  You know, that would be -- and what you  46 say here in this -- his point is that there are  47 parallel developments in their culture that are 1172?  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 reflected in the vocabulary, and I did really try to  2 qualify this, that there is only a small percentage of  3 the social organization, words that are actually  4 borrowing, so this is overstated in my -- on page 65  5 in a way.  I tried to respond to that earlier this  6 week.  I made the same point.  7 Q   Well, let's just stick with that and go to the  8 appendices, your report at tab three, and it's the  9 pages numbered in H again at the back.  10 A   Towards the back.  11 Q   Towards the back.  If you start -- if you go to page  12 seven for example.  13 A   Yes, we have some examples, yes.  14 Q   You will see that a borrowed word at the very top of  15 page seven, a borrowed word from Gitksan into  16 Wet'suwet'en.  17 A   Yes, that may be the opposite judgment we would want  18 to make on it now.  This is very recent information,  19 but there are Athabaskan words that have Shyi' for  20 son, s-o-n.  21 THE COURT:  I'm sorry?  22 THE WITNESS:   This language in Alaska —  23 THE COURT:  No.  No.  The spelling of that word please.  24 THE WITNESS:   S-o-n.  I said S-h-y-i apostrophe.  This could  25 say that Bruce and I turned the results around the  26 wrong way, and it may be a Athabaskan origin word for  27 children.  It's real interesting, but go ahead, Mr.  2 8 Willms.  29 MR. WILLSM:  30 Q   Well, I only know what I read in the report.  31 A   I do too.  We would modify this list if we were  32 working on it again today, and I didn't realize.  In  33 fact it just occurred to me this week here in  34 Vancouver that that's how they say my son in this  35 language way in western as Alaska.  So maybe Bruce and  36 I had it turned the other way around on this one.  So  37 I'm not trying to interrupt your --  38 Q   Well, let's try page 8 and see if you got another one  39 turned around.  It's escorts.  This is another feast  4 0 word?  41 A   That definitely seems to be a Gitksan origin word  42 there.  Definitely there.  43 Q   And then if you go to page nine at the top.  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   Hawaal, H-a-w-a-a-1?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   That's another Gitksan feast term that's been borrowed 11729  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 into Wet'suwet'en?  2 A   Yes, and that's pan Tsimshian, so you would certainly  3 want to accept that as Tsimshian in origin.  4 Q   And then if you go a couple more pages to page 11, you  5 have spouses, the word for spouses.  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And once again this is related to a feast or a  8 potlatch?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Yes.  11 A  And then that secret society, I don't know.  That must  12 be a Gitksan origin word too.  13 Q   And if you just turn back to page 6 of this appendix.  14 A   Back to page 6.  15 Q   Six at the bottom.  The word "chief".  That's a  16 borrowed word from the Tsimshian?  17 A   Looks like it, yes.  18 Q   Right.  And then at the top another feast term for the  19 back of the house.  That's borrowed?  20 A   That one's probably a bit ambiguous, because can be a  21 good word in a lot of Athabaskan languages, so that  22 one might be a little bit debatable.  But they do say  23 that in Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  24 Q   So if we just go back to Sapir and go back to the very  25 first page of how languages influence each other.  26 Sapir, he starts off talking about languages and  27 cultures, but if you come down to about the tenth line  28 from the bottom on page 192 to the word "whatever".  2 9              Are you with me?  30 A   On?  31 Q   Page 12.  32 A   "Whatever the degree".  33 Q   "Whatever", yes.  34  35 "Whatever the degree or nature of contact  36 between neighbouring peoples, it is  37 generally sufficient to lead to some kind of  38 linguistic inter-influencing.  Frequently  39 the influence runs heavily in one direction.  40 The language of the people is looked upon as  41 a centre of culture is naturally far more  42 likely to exert an appreciable influence on  43 other languages spoken in its vicinity than  44 to be influenced by them."  45  46 Now, isn't that a very apt description of the  47 Wet'suwet'en borrowing of Gitksan words for feast and 11730  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 the like?  2 A   Perhaps it is for feasting in particular, but, you  3 know, the final word is not in on the nature of  4 Gitksan and Babine-Wet'suwet'en borrowing.  I could  5 tell you my latest findings, if you are interested.  6 They came up this week too.  7 Q   So your findings in your report are not accurate, the  8 one that's been marked as an exhibit?  9 A   If we say that Gitksan -- if we say  10 Babine-Wet'suwet'en borrowed more from Gitksan in --  11 than the reverse -- not just in one domain, by the  12 way, not just in the domain of feasting, but across  13 the board, I would say it's pretty much a stand off.  14 It's quite balanced now, especially if some of my  15 newer ideas pan out and Bruce sees connections that  16 might produce more Athabaskan words in Gitksan than we  17 realize.  18 Such as father-in-law, did I mention father-in-law  19 yesterday?  It's looking very possible that mother's  20 brother in Athabaskan, Proto-Athabaskan, is the  21 Gitksan word -- one of the Gitksan words for  22 father-in-law, which had not occurred to us.  That is  23 not here in our report.  That's just a new idea.  Or  24 this children being possibly related to an Athabaskan  25 word in Alaska, that would be a reverse or would be a  26 reverse decision.  I am not trying to say that I am --  27 what we do -- or what I am running through my mind is  28 healthy review of the evidence so that you could --  2 9 you know, Bruce might change his mind and make a  3 0 judgment.  I might change my mind, make a judgment on  31 these words, and we would go through them, but --  32 Q   You might write a different report today?  33 A  Well, the loan words, linguistic borrowing issue could  34 be enriched by more data, and we do have more data  35 today.  36 THE COURT:  Am I correct in noting that you now think that  37 borrowings between the Gitksan and the  38 Babine-Wet'suwet'en between themselves might be about  39 equal?  40 THE WITNESS:   Yes, statistically, and certainly in interesting  41 ways to say that you wouldn't -- you wouldn't want to  42 say from the linguistic evidence that Gitksan is a  43 superior culture and that Babine-Wet'suwet'en is an  44 inferior culture, and therefore they borrowed all  45 these words in the high status domain.  It's a trade  46 off.  47 Q   What about rather than using superior and inferior, 11731  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 using something like dominant?  2 A   I don't know how that would be strictly borne out in  3 other ways.  You've brought this line of reasoning  4 into some other questions here.  I don't see -- I see  5 a mutual interaction between two very rich cultures.  6 Neither one is inferior or superior to the other or  7 dominant.  I think that's more -- it's my opinion  8 anyway.  9 MR. WILLMS:  My Lord, the extract from Sapir 881-A-6.  10    THE COURT:  Yes.  11  12 (EXHIBIT 881-A-6 - EXTRACT FROM SAPIR)  13  14 Q   Now, this morning in discussing the archaeological  15 evidence you did say that you have referred to Dr.  16 Ames' work?  17 A  Well, I have read it.  18 Q   In fact you have read Dr. Ames' work and you have  19 referred to it in your 1988 or 1989 paper, which is at  20 tab 5 of the materials, Exhibit 880?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And I am showing you an extract from Skeena River  23 prehistory, which is entitled "Stable and Resilient  24 Systems Along the Skeena River, the Gitksan-Carrier  25 boundary".  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And you referred to this when you were writing your  28 most recent view on issues like that?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Is that correct?  Now, if you turn to page 220, which  31 is the introduction by Dr. Ames, Dr. Ames says this in  32 his introduction:  33  34 "Linguistic and ethnographic evidence  35 indicated that the Gitksan, the interior  36 extension of the Tsimshian, were the result  37 of the enculturation of Athapaskan  38 speakers."  39  40 He cites Rigsby and Adams.  This is the Gitksan  41 potlatch, Adams reference.  You recognize that?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   Yes.  44  45 "An example of this process is provided by  46 the Bulkley-Carrier who left their village  47 of Moricetown, B.C., taking up residence 11732  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 close by a major Gitksan settlement at  2 Hazelton B.C. in 1820."  3  4 Now, I'll just stop there.  Are you aware of that  5 history?  6 A  About the Hagwilget 1820 date?  7 Q   Yes.  8 A   Yes, I have seen that.  9 Q   All right.  So I will skip the blocking of the Bulkley  10 River and go down to the next full paragraph.  Dr.  11 Ames says this:  12  13 "After a while the Carrier began erecting  14 Tsimshian style totem poles.  They  15 intermarried with the Gitksan, participating  16 in and conducting the appropriate feasts and  17 potlatches.  In time Tsimshian became the  18 preferred language for these occasions.  19 This process was probably disrupted by  20 smallpox epidemics in the 1860's and  21 other effects of contact with the  22 Europeans."  23  24 Just stopping there.  Is that in accordance with  25 your linguistic evidence?  26 A   No, not at all.  27 Q   No.  Then he cites the Adams --  28 A   Oh, yes that's the one I was mentioning.  29 Q  30 "Gitksan society probably represents ... a  31 gradual extension of Coast Tsimshian and  32 Nass social forms to include upriver groups  33 who are in all likelihood Athabaskan  34 speaking semi-nomadic hunting groups similar  35 to the Stikine and Tsetsaut people.  The  36 present-day Carriers of the Bulkley River  37 have been partially enculturated by the  38 Tsimshian; they still speak an Athapaskan  39 language, but they erect totem poles and  40 potlatch ... as recently as the 1830s.  Half  41 the inhabitants of Gitsegyukla spoke the  42 Hagwilget language, and the village of  43 Kitwancool was 'half Stikine'."  44  45 Now, in terms of the present day Carriers of the  46 Bulkley River, do you agree with that statement, that  47 they have been partially inculturated by the 11733  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Tsimshian?  2 A  Well, I think Ives presents the counter side to that  3 too, that the Tsimshian have been partially  4 enculturated into the Athabaskan too.  Maybe Adams  5 didn't say it, but I would say that there is evidence  6 of Athabaskanization by the Gitksan too.  So I see it  7 both ways.  I wouldn't simply state it the way Adams  8 did.  9 I also think that there is a stereotype here  10 working in Adams about simple Athabaskan's being  11 nomadic and roaming around and just going somewhere  12 where they can glom onto somebody else's  13 sophistication.  So I don't agree with that at all.  14 Q   Okay.  Just going back to Ives for a moment.  You  15 recall that Ives' paper was based on a time depth of  16 more than just 1800s?  17 A   Yes, variations.  18 Q   That's when he has Athapaskan culture coming down to  19 Kitselas?  20 A   Yes, that's what he sees ancient.  21 Q   And Ames has Tsimshian culture at a shallow time depth  22 coming up, is that correct?  23 A   Yes, it seems to be.  24 Q   So that carrying on in the introduction to this  25 assessment by Dr. Ames, he says:  26  27 "The enculturation of the Carrier at Tsekya,  28 and of other Athapaskans before them along  29 the Skeena, offers an interesting starting  30 point for an analysis of the process of  31 adaptation and evolution in this sector of  32 the Pacific Northwest.  This paper will  33 concentrate upon why the boundary between  34 Gitksan and Carrier is where it is.  There  35 are two reasons for pursuing the question.  36 First, an examination of the boundary shows  37 that its location was governed by the  38 habitat requirements of the Tsimshian social  39 system.  Second, a circumstantial case can  40 be made for the upriver expansion of the  41 Tsimshian, and absorption of Athapaskans,  42 fitting Binford's model of Post-Pliestocene  43 adaptation."  44  45 Now, just stopping there.  The second point that  46 Dr. Ames makes preliminarily there is consistent with,  47 for example, the 1969 Rigsby draft on the Gitksan move 11734  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 up the Skeena River into the upper Nass, is that  2 correct?  3 A   Yes.  4 THE COURT:  What was the year?  5 MR. WILLMS:  1969, My Lord.  6 Q   Now, I won't go through Dr. Ames thought processes  7 here and his assessment of the linguistics and the  8 archaeology, but he at page 234 has a conclusion about  9 the fur trade which we have seen before.  He says at  10 the top of the page:  11  12 "The fur trade, the coming of the Hudson's  13 Bay Company, missionaries and the like  14 altered the economic conditions within the  15 region.  For example, Legex, a Coast  16 Tsimshian chief bypassed the Gitksan, the  17 traditional middleman, and traded directly  18 with the Carrier.  Legex became a major  19 economic power in the area during the middle  20 part of the last century.  Probably for the  21 first time the Bulkley Carrier had a direct  22 link to the coast.  This change in economic  23 conditions accounts in large part for the  24 presence of totem poles and potlatching at  25 Moricetown.  Without such an economic shift,  26 the ecological boundary described above  27 would have continued to hold as strongly as  28 it had during the precontact period."  29  30 Now, the reference again to totem poles and  31 potlatching, the linguistic evidence doesn't  32 contradict that, does it?  33 A  Well, there is probably a borrowing of Ts'an, T-s  34 apostrophe a-n, for totem pole, in Babine-Wet'suwet'en  35 there is a probable Tsimshianic -- it's probably  36 borrowed from Tsimshian.  37 Q   If you just turn to page 236.  Dr. Ames puts together  38 his archaeological information with his linguistic  39 information from Dr. Rigsby and says in the paragraph  40 just above summary and conclusions:  41  42 "From the data outlined above we can  43 develop a tentative schedule for the  44 upriver extension of Tsimshian social  45 organization within the last two millinea.  46 Some form of ranked society had probably  47 developed within Prince Rupert Harbour by 11735  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 500 B.C.  This system had extended up the  2 lower Skeena by A.D. 1000, relying upon both  3 Rigsby's and Allaire's dates.  It would  4 appear that the process above Kitselas had  5 not been completed by the 1830's, judging by  6 Adams' reading of Barbeau's notes.  It may  7 be that enculturation was intensified by the  8 development of the closed population system  9 within the last 100 years or so."  10  11 Now, from your linguistic investigations in the  12 area, are any of your linguistic data inconsistent  13 with that theory?  14 A  Well, I don't know if I would write such a paragraph  15 that would have that shallow an onset for some of that  16 feast and totem poles and the whole complex of things.  17 I don't know -- I don't -- you know, I really don't  18 believe most of the things in that domain in  19 Babine-Wet'suwet'en are post-contact.  I feel that  20 there are earlier processes going on maybe for a  21 thousand years.  22 THE COURT:  What's a closed population system?  23 THE WITNESS:  I'm not entirely sure.  I don't think I know.  Do  24 you, Mr. Willms?  25 THE COURT:  Well, somebody will tell us.  We will wait.  26 Somebody will tell us.  Shall we take the afternoon  27 adjournment?  28 MR. WILLMS:  Perhaps we could mark this in 881-A-7 before we  29 break.  30 THE COURT:  Yes, thank you.  31  32 (EXHIBIT NO. 8 81-A-7 - NATIONAL MUSEUM OF  33  34 MAN MERCURY SERIES)  35  36 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  37  38 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A SHORT RECESS)  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 11736  J. Kari (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO  3 BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT OF  4 THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE BEST OF  5 MY SKILL AND ABILITY.  6  7  8 LORI OXLEY  9 OFFICIAL REPORTER  10 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 11737  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 3:15)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Willms.  5 MR. WILLMS:  6 Q   On this topic for the last time, Dr. Kari, you  7 referred in your most recent paper to a paper by Dr.  8 Bishop entitled "A Limiting Access To Limited Goods:  9 The Origins of Stratification In Interior British  10 Columbia"?  11 A Yes.  12 Q Yes?  13 A Yes, sir.  14 Q And you recognize this as that reference to your most  15 recent paper?  16 A   Yes, sir.  17 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, 881A-8.  18 THE COURT:  Yes.  19  20 EXHIBIT 881A-8 - "Limiting Access to Limited  21 Goods:  The Origins of Stratification in Interior  22 British Columbia" - CA. Bishop  23  24 MR. WILLMS:  25 Q   Now, the purpose of this paper is set out by Dr.  26 Bishop in the very first line on the first page.  He  27 says:  28  29 "How egalitarian societies are transformed into  30 ranked ones recently has become a subject of some  31 interest."  32  33 And then he primarily investigates ranked societies in  34 the Pacific Northwest?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Yes?  And if you can turn to page 154 of Bishop's  37 paper, he talks about -- it's on the left-hand side,  38 about half-way down that paragraph after the word  39 "Carrier" with a "5" footnote there, page 154?  40 A   Oh, yes, yes.  41 Q   He says:  42  43 "As certain members of lineages within villages  44 established direct links with coastal trading  45 partners, they adopted the totemic crests of the  46 Tsimshian" —  47 1173?  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 And there he cites Jenness:  2  3 "This would have elevated the status of the Carrier  4 traders by equating them with their Tsimshian  5 partners.  Later, the totem emblem (but not the  6 rank and title) appear to have been extended to  7 other members of the matrilineage, thus  8 facilitating travel and trade."  9  10 And there he cites Morice.  And then he concludes:  11  12 "The Babines were likely the first to acquire the  13 rank system from the neighboring Tsimshian,  14 perhaps during the last half of the 18th Century.  15 By the mid-1820's, most Carrier communities had a  16 small core of nobles."  17  18 Now, is any of your linguistic investigation  19 inconsistent with that?  20 A  Well, I don't know -- I mean he's sounding pretty  21 precise about adopting it in the late 18th -- last  22 half of the 18th century, and I don't have too much  23 comment on that as far as how he can be that precise  24 in his dating of the onset of it.  I need to know more  25 of his justification for that or when I would come up  26 with the date of onset.  I don't --  27 Q   You will agree with me that that date is the same as  28 Ames, it's the same as Kobrinsky, it's the same as  29 Jenness.  In fact, it's the same as about seven or  30 eight references that you've already had referred to  31 you?  32 A   Um-hum.  33 Q   Yes.  Are you aware of anyone, any of the references  34 in your paper, that have a longer time depth to  35 ranking than that, any of the references in your  36 paper?  37 A   I -- not that I know of, except maybe Ives.  You would  38 maybe take the Ives point of view and say it's very  39 ancient, but -- or Rubal(phonetics) and Roseman has,  40 you know, somewhat of a different picture too.  I  41 think one thing that has happened that's particularly  42 glaring in Kobrinsky was -- but with this -- with  43 Bishop too he is comparing -- Bishop does not realize  44 he's comparing people who speak two different  45 languages, so I -- you know, my point is that there is  46 plenty of evidence for independent time depth for  47 Babine and Wet'suwet'en, and it's true, they probably 11739  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 acquired some ranking and territoriality at some  2 point, and I feel it was precontact prior to the fur  3 trade, and I might have a firmer position on it if I  4 had been studying territoriality and some of these  5 other things.  It's quite sophisticated,  6 Babine-Wet'suwet'en territoriality, and I do agree  7 it's different than in Alaska, for Alaska  8 Athabaskans -- it's different from Alaskan Athabaskans  9 territoriality here in this area.  10 Q   I'm showing -- this binder wasn't produced by you, it  11 was produced in my office.  It's entitled "Draft  12 Report of Bruce Rigsby and James Kari", and it  13 contains some of the materials that were forwarded  14 this week, and as I understand, those materials, you  15 brought them with you from Alaska, is that right, Dr.  16 Kari, you brought --  17 A   Is this -- is this just what I brought, nothing else?  18 It's not some other stuff that arrived from Australia  19 or —  20 Q   No, no.  You brought some documents with you?  21 A   Yeah, a draft, yeah.  22 Q   Now, let's go through these, and perhaps you can  23 identify them for the record?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Let's start at tab 1 of this.  And you recognize tab  26 1, which is numbered from page 1 through, and the  27 final pages are handwritten, 51, 52, and 53?  2 8 A   Um-hum.  29 Q   That's the draft of your report, the copy that you  30 received that had already been through Dr. Rigsby?  31 A   Um-hum.  32 Q   Is that right?  33 A   Um-hum.  34 Q   You have to say yes or no for the record.  35 A   Yes.  I think that's right.  36 THE COURT:  After what?  37 MR. WILLMS:  38 Q   This is the one, if you refer to, for example, the  39 first page, you will see Dr. Rigsby's writing on page  40 3?  41 A   Yes, sir, yes.  I mean I think you're right.  42 Q   What this is is on the word processor in Hazelton or  43 before the draft went down, Dr. Rigsby -- and this is  44 it coming back with Dr. Rigsby's handwritten comments  45 on it, is that right?  46 A   I think some of Overstall's stylistically too.  47 Q   Yes? 11740  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 A   Or whatever.  2 Q   And I'll get to that, but you brought that with you  3 from Alaska?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Now, tab 2, you recognize that as something that was  6 prepared by Dr. Rigsby?  7 A   Um-hum.  8 Q   But also you brought that with you from Alaska?  9 A   Yes, yes, sir.  10 Q   Yes.  Now, tab 3, entitled "The Nishga Language", and  11 it's just two pages, that again is Dr. Rigsby?  12 A  Well, yes, yes.  13 Q   Yes, okay.  Tab 4, which is "The Coast Tsimshian  14 Language", and there are three pages here.  You  15 recognize that as Dr. Rigsby's work?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And tab 5 is provocatively entitled "Draft 9", May  18 15th, 1986, it's two pages, and that's Dr. Rigsby?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   Tab 6 is "Draft 10", there's four pages there, and  21 that's Dr. Rigsby?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And then tab 7, entitled "The Gitksan Communities",  24 there's four pages.  Again, that is prepared by Dr.  25 Rigsby?  2 6 A   Um-hum.  27 Q   And tab 8, which is "Draft 4" up in the upper  28 left-hand corner, that is four pages of Dr. Rigsby?  29 A   Yes, sir.  30 Q   And then the final one the author is identified on the  31 first page, it's five pages, and that's Dr. Rigsby and  32 his wife?  33 A  Well, that's some other paper there, apparently.  34 Q   From 1977?  35 A   Yes, yes.  36 MR. WILLMS:  All right.  My lord, I would like to mark this as  37 the next exhibit.  38 THE COURT:  The book as one exhibit?  39 MR. WILLMS:  I would like to mark the book as one exhibit, my  40 lord.  We can do dash for each of the tabs or just  41 mark the book and I can refer to it as tabs.  42 MS. MANDELL:  My lord, perhaps we can just give it an exhibit  43 number.  I haven't had an opportunity of preparing  44 this document with the provided draft and I have no  45 reason to suggest it's accurate or not, I would just  46 like an opportunity to read it.  47 THE COURT:  What's the next exhibit number, please? 11741  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  REGISTRAR:  The next exhibit number will be 883.  COURT:  That number will be reserved until Miss Mandell has  a chance to indicate whether she has a submission to  make on it or not.  WILLMS:  Q   Thank you, my lord.  All right.  Now, if we can just  start back at tab -- because it was the -- because of  the date on it, tab 5, which is the one entitled  "Draft 9", "The Relationship of Gitksan to Coast  Tsimshian"?  A   Yes.  I think your question about "draft", it looks  like a file numbering system, it looks like he called  the next section "Draft 10".  WILLMS:  I'm at tab 5, my lord, of Exhibit 883.  COURT:  All right.  WILLMS:  Q   And this is "The Relationship of Gitksan to Coast  Tsimshian", and it's May 15th, 1986.  And you will see  on the second page Dr. Rigsby says:  "The time depth of the separation between Gitksan  and Southern Tsimshian is of the same magnitude at  least as that between Gitksan and Coast Tsimshian.  Again, I estimate that it is in the 500 - 1,000  year range."  Now, you knew that that was Dr. Rigsby's view of the  time spread in 1986?  A   Yes, sir.  I guess I've read this before.  I haven't  read it in a long time.  Q   And he -- if you go to tab 6 where he's talking about  the relationship of Gitksan to Southern Tsimshian?  A   Um-hum.  Q   It's the same date, and he says -- he says the same  thing at the very last page, page 4:  "The time depth involved in the split between the  two Interior Tsimshian languages and Coast  Tsimshian is probably greater than 500 years, and  it could be as much as 1,000.  But I hasten to say  that this is strictly an estimate."  All right, so that was his range in 1986?  A   Um-hum.  WILLMS:  And you'll — is Exhibit 881 — or maybe I can —  well, we should have Exhibit 881, the February letter.  COURT:  Tab?  1  THE  2  THE  3  4  5  MR.  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  MR.  15  THE  16  MR.  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  MR.  46  47  THE 11742  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 MR. WILLMS:  881-27.  Here, you will see that under item 6 on  2 the next page, the last full paragraph on the page of  3 the letter and concerning -- you see Dr. Rigsby says:  4  5 "And concerning your sixth question, I have  6 rephrased to say that my 'guestimate' for the time  7 depth between Proto-Interior-Tsimshianic and Coast  8 Tsimshian is based on my knowledge of change in  9 other language familes."  10  11 And it was the word "guestimate" was what Dr. Rigsby  12 wrote in, wasn't it, the final --  13 A   Yes, I see.  14 MR. WILLMS:  Yes.  So that if you go back to the Exhibit 883 and  15 tab 1, which is the -- I guess the --  16 THE COURT:  You mean 8 83?  17 MR. WILLMS:  883 tab 1, page 39.  18 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, I don't know what 883 is.  19 MR. WILLMS:  It's that yellow — it's the draft.  20 THE COURT:  Oh, that one, yes, thank you.  21 MR. WILLMS:  22 Q   Page -- it's page 39 of that.  You will see the --  23 A   Page 39?  24 Q   Yeah.  At 39 Dr. Rigsby has handwritten in the middle  25 of the page, he -- as the paper came to him from Mr.  26 Overstall it said -- it could go back -- well, let's  27 go to the start.  He says:  28  29 "The time depth involved in the split between the  30 two Interior Tsimshian languages and Coast  31 Tsimshian is certainly greater than five  32 hundred years, but given that there was continuing  33 and regular interaction among the speakers of the  34 several languages over time, it could go back  35 to more than two millenia."  36  37 And then the draft that was sent up by Mr. Overstall  38 continued on:  39  40 "However, I hasten to say that this is strictly an  41 estimate" --  42  43 And Dr. Rigsby -- that's Dr. Rigsby that's crossed  44 that out and written in "a guestimate", that's his  45 writing, correct?  46 A   I think that's Bruce's writing, yes.  47 Q   Yes.  But when you go to the report at page 41 -- 11743  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  MR.  WILLMS  18  THE  COURT:  19  MR.  WILLMS  20  THE  COURT:  21  MR.  WILLMS  22  THE  COURT:  23  MR.  WILLMS  24  THE  COURT:  25  MR.  WILLMS  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  THE  COURT:  34  MR.  WILLMS  35  THE  COURT:  36  MR.  WILLMS  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  46  47  Tab 2?  Tab 2.  And the report's Exhibit 877 and it's page 41.  You will see that the final version at the top of the  page says:  "However, I hasten to say that this is strictly an  estimate."  But you will see that it does pick up the rest of Dr.  Rigsby's handwriting?  Yes.  All right.  Did you have anything to do with not  writing in guestimate but leaving it as estimate?  Me?  Yes?  No.  :  Oh, okay.  I haven't found that on page 41.  :  Page 41 of the report, my lord.  Yes.  :  And page 39 of the draft.  Oh, yes.  I have it.  :  And at the very top.  Yep, I see it.  :  And the witness pointed out that Dr. Rigsby's  language, like "based on my knowledge of change", that  has been put in, but it's still "estimate", it's not  "guestimate", as Dr. Rigsby wrote in in hand.  And I  just asked the witness whether he had anything to do  with that and he said he didn't.  Now, just carrying  on here -- yes.  You will see if you go to the next  paragraph on the time depth --  Sorry, next paragraph of what?  :  Of the draft at page 39.  Tab 6?  Oh, the draft.  At tab 1 there is the time depth of the separation,  and it appears that there's been some language change,  but if you pick it up again, Dr. Kari, you will see  that the second sentence at page 39 of the draft at  tab 1, the words "And geographically"?  Um-hum.  And we're in the final report now at page 41, "And  geographically", and you will see that the words track  all the way through until you get to "northern  extreme", which is a comma in the draft at page 39 but  becomes a period in the final report, and then the 11744  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 rest of the line is taken out, that -- the part that  2 reads:  3  4 "Perhaps situated on the Skeena above the canyon at  5 Kitselas".  6  7 Now, did you have anything to do with that portion  8 being taken out?  9 A   Not me.  10 Q   No?  Has Dr. Rigsby told you why that was taken out?  11 A  Well, I didn't notice this until you pointed it out so  12 I never had any conversation with Rigsby about how he  13 edited his report.  I just brought the drafts and  14 you're looking at them closely, and I never noticed  15 that.  16 MR. WILLMS:  If we could just go back to the very beginning of  17 the draft at tab 1, Exhibit 883, and the introduction.  18 Now, you will see that the introduction has the typing  19 from the -- from Mr. Overstall's word processor and  20 then the handwriting --  21 MS. MANDELL:  Just a minute, do we know that?  22 MR. WILLMS:  23 Q   I thought the witness already said that, but you'll  24 make that clear again?  25 A  Whose word processor?  26 Q   When this draft, the drafts of these reports, for  27 example, you will notice the difference in the typing  28 here?  2 9 A   Um-hum.  30 Q   On the typed pages all the way through to page 50?  31 A   Um-hum.  32 Q   Yes?  33 A   Yes.  That's because some was typed in Hazelton and  34 some was typed in Australia.  35 MS. MANDELL:  Sorry.  I see three different types?  36 A   But Bruce types the draft himself in Hazelton and he  37 might have used -- he was using a computer there in  38 Hazelton, but I'm quite sure he typed this -- what  39 you're reading, this draft.  40 MR. WILLMS:  41 Q   You're quite sure Dr. Rigsby typed this draft?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   All right.  44 A   I believe so.  45 Q   Well, let's -- you will agree with me that starting at  46 page 3 where it says "Introduction", that that  47 handwriting, that heavy handwriting is Dr. Rigsby's? 11745  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   All right.  So he's handwriting something in on  3 something that's been typed?  4 A   Yes, that he typed.  5 Q   That he typed.  Well, let's go to the next page.  6 Whose writing is it in the margin beside that second  7 paragraph?  You see the word "Parts"?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   Is that Dr. Rigsby's writing?  10 A   You think it's the same as on the bottom?  The writing  11 on the bottom is Rigsby's.  It might be possibly  12 Overstall's, and it doesn't look like my handwriting.  13 I don't know.  14 Q   It says:  15  16 "Parts of this are problematic, but the general  17 answer is yes."  18  19 A   That could be Bruce's handwriting in both cases, both  20 in the left-hand margin and on the bottom.  21 Q   Let's go to the bottom here because it says -- the  22 typed version says:  23  24 "The materials on Gitksan linguistic relations was  25 prepared by Bruce Rigsby, who has been a student  26 of Gitksan since 1966 and is now a reasonably  27 fluent speaker."  28  29 Now, that part, "is a reasonably fluent speaker", is  30 crossed out, and for example, at the top of page 5,  31 that "not at all really", that's Dr. Rigsby, isn't it?  32 A   Yes.  You seem to be right.  33 Q   And in fact, what he's done is he's rewritten it to  34 say that he's got:  35  36 "A good analytical knowledge of the language and  37 more limited speaking and hearing command  38 of it."  39  40 A   Yes.  That's in the report now, right.  41 Q   Yes.  And then at the very end of this section, page  42 6, there's the handwriting, and it looks like Dr.  43 Rigsby's.  It says:  44  45 "Do you want a comparable note on the spellings  46 of the Gitksan words in this report, which often  47 differ from those used elsewhere?" 11746  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 That's Dr. Rigsby's writing?  2 A  Mm-hmm, yes.  3 Q   It was Mr. Overstall that wrote the introduction,  4 wasn't it, and here Dr. Rigsby's commenting on the  5 introduction that Mr. Overstall wrote?  6 A  Well, I see your point, but I know there was stages  7 where we were working together, either in handwritten  8 drafts or things that did precede this particular  9 typing.  I think you're right that maybe Overstall did  10 type it at this time, but it didn't mean that  11 Overstall wrote this entirely on his own momentum, his  12 own, you know, without having -- it could be that  13 Overstall typed this, yes, but it doesn't mean  14 Overstall gave us the conclusions that we're making in  15 our overall -- in our overall Rigsby-Kari 1986.  I  16 mean we make a lot of conclusions in this report, so  17 you might have a good point here, Mr. Willms, that  18 Overstall may have typed this.  It didn't mean  19 Overstall wrote it.  20 Q   Of course when you go back to Mr. Overstall's letter  21 of January 20th, which is Exhibit 881-26, you will see  22 that Mr. Overstall does say in that first paragraph:  23  24 "I took the liberty of writing the introduction  25 myself."  26  2 7 A   Um-hum.  28 Q   Correct?  29 A   Okay.  30 Q   And he meant what he said?  31 A  Well, I meant what I said yesterday about a long  32 passage.  What I said yesterday I thought was is the  33 present section 2, okay, of the paper, the section 2  34 in the general introduction to Language, Culture and  35 Society and Historical Linguistics.  I know Bruce and  36 I were working to the -- on that stuff, and he had a  37 very long draft, and so that's what I thought of, or  38 when you showed me this letter the other day, so yes,  39 perhaps you're right, Mr. Willms, that Overstall wrote  40 the introduction, just as that letter says, but that  41 doesn't mean that we had not gone over our findings  42 and had other probable versions too that -- I think  43 that — but —  44 Q   On page -- if you turn at the draft at tab 1 to page  45 20, and at the same time -- sorry, it's tab 1 of the  46 draft, page 20, and turn at the same time to your  47 report at page 18.  All right.  And you will see on 11747  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 page 20 of the draft there is that first full  2 paragraph with a line through in the draft, says:  3  4 "There is then, a broad Gitksan community which is  5 defined in part."  6  7 All right.  And that's crossed out and there's a  8 little note there that says:  9  10 "See attached page 20a for new para beginning."  11  12 That's Dr. Rigsby's writing?  13 A   Yes, sir, yes.  14 Q   And so if you turn the page you will see there is a  15 20a handwritten right after it, and this is -- there's  16 no question this is in Dr. Rigsby's hand, is that  17 correct?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And he says:  20  21 "There is indeed a broader Gitksan community that  22 includes a number of local village communities,  23 and it can be defined objectively by marriage  24 patterns" --  25  26 And he cites Kasakoff:  27  28 "and participation in its own feast system" --  29  30 And he cites Adams, and then he says:  31  32 "And subjectively, this wider Gitksan community,  33 (that is the Gitksan as a whole people) is  34 defined."  35  36 Now, when you look at the final draft of the report  37 that's been filed in court, it just says:  38  39 "There is then, a broad Gitksan community which is  40 defined in part."  41  42 Dr. Rigsby's revisions aren't in there?  43 A  Well, I can't address any more than I know about the  44 draft I brought down, and what if there were a couple  45 of other intermediate drafts and Bruce changed his  46 view or rephrased his view, and Overstall's work is  47 not that prominent in the whole Rigsby-Kari report in 11748  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 the overall -- in the overall report.  Some of this  2 stuff that the chiefs had made a statement, that is  3 the proposition before the court and so forth,  4 Overstall was working on to lay out those facts, but  5 that was not without plenty of discussion and  6 communication with us in written and in spoken form  7 right there, so it's -- to me it seems to be a healthy  8 editorial process.  I don't know if it strikes you  9 that way, but we also had to know what he -- you know,  10 who was filing for what -- how it was phrased, how the  11 chiefs -- I mean we aren't living in your area where  12 you're party to this information about the, you know,  13 the defining properties of the case, so --  14 Q   If I can put it this way, you didn't have anything to  15 do with that change?  16 A   No.  17 MR. WILLMS:  No, okay.  Can you go to your report at page 28 and  18 the draft at page 29.  19 MS. MANDELL:  My lord, if I could here rise and try and capture  20 the hamster.  It seems to me that --  21 THE COURT:  Gerbil.  22 MS. MANDELL:  We lost a hamster.  It seems to me that he — the  23 witness has already said that he has no personal  24 knowledge about how Dr. Rigsby edited his report, and  25 we've now gone through two examples, and I suppose we  26 could wait for three or four of them, but it seems to  27 me that these are the questions which really ought to  28 be put to Dr. Rigsby.  The witness has said if --  29 although Dr. Rigsby is not coming -- the witness has  30 said that he doesn't -- he's not responsible for this  31 editorial process with respect to Dr. Rigsby's report,  32 and I for one don't see anything other than a form of  33 lip sawing going on where Dr. Rigsby's report is being  34 indirectly challenged, although Dr. Rigsby here isn't  35 there to answer as to why different things happened.  36 We know that the witness here doesn't know, and it's  37 only a point of bringing this to the attention of the  38 court with no possible answer from the witness in  39 reply, and I think that's really the objection I was  40 starting to feel out before this whole line of  41 questioning began.  42 THE COURT:  Well, I think I understand the thrust of what you're  43 saying, Miss Mandell, but this is a report that has  44 been filed on behalf of these two authors, and it's  45 their report and Dr. Kari has put his name to it, he  46 has some responsibility for it.  It isn't suggested,  47 and I don't think it's going to be suggested, he was 11749  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 involved in this part of the editing, and it may well  2 be healthy editing, as he says, but I don't think that  3 I can stop counsel from pointing out from the  4 documents individual or serial indications that Dr.  5 Rigsby's suggestions were or were not carried out.  It  6 will be for me to take whatever steps I think are  7 appropriate if the process is unduly drained, you  8 provide too many examples of the same thing.  I  9 suspect Mr. Willms hasn't too many of these, and I  10 don't think he's reached the point yet with what I  11 think is permissible cross-examination said to be  12 abusing it.  I don't think I can stop him.  You may  13 proceed.  14 MR. WILLMS:  15 Q   Thank you, my lord.  The next part was page 28 of the  16 report and page 29 of the draft.  And in the report  17 you will see, Dr. Kari, there is a paragraph in the  18 middle of the page that says "John Dunn"?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   And if you look at the draft at page 29, you will see  21 that "John Dunn" is picked up the fourth line from the  22 bottom on the right-hand side?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And then the presiding paragraph, which refers to:  25  26 "The ancestral home of the proto-language was  27 situated on or near the coast and not in the  28 Interior."  29  30 Has been deleted?  31 A  Maybe deleted, maybe moved.  32 Q   All right.  33 A   Possibly moved.  Have you checked?  34 Q   Yes, I have.  35 A   It's not elsewhere anywhere?  It wasn't just a move,  36 copy command, or did he just delete it?  37 Q   Well —  38 A   I don't know, you know.  39 Q   You didn't have anything to do with that?  4 0 A   No.  41 Q   No?  Well, let's perhaps turn to part of the report  42 that you were co-author of.  It's page 63 of the  43 report, and you'll recognize that page 63 is in  44 chapter 4 -- or chapter 5 -- sorry, this is your joint  45 conclusion with Dr. Rigsby.  And page 47 in the draft?  4 6 A   Um-hum.  47 Q   And you will see -- and it's in the draft the comment 11750  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 that I want to ask you about is handwritten, but just  2 to let you know where it is in the report, you will  3 see that there is a sentence in the draft on the  4 second line saying:  5  6 "The Gitksan, one might speculate, were a more  7 salient reference group than their closer  8 linguistic kin."  9  10 A   Um-hum.  11 MR. WILLMS:  And that's — that's the same in the final, okay,  12 it's the same line:  13  14 "The Gitksan were probably a more salient reference  15 group than their closest linguistic kin."  16  17 THE COURT:  Sorry.  Where is that in the final?  18 MR. WILLMS:  It's five lines up, my lord, on page 63 in the  19 final.  2 0 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  21 MR. WILLMS:  22 Q   So that the line stays the same, but you will see that  23 Dr. Rigsby says -- and why they -- this is Dr.  24 Rigsby's writing, I should confirm that, Dr. Kari; the  25 angled writing at the top?  26 A   That doesn't -- I'm not sure.  That might be.  It's  27 not my handwriting, so it's either Overstall's or  28 Bruce.  I'm beginning to think they have very similar  29 handwritings though, don't they, or do they?  I'm not  30 that familiar with --  31 Q   I'll get to Mr. Overstall's handwriting in a couple of  32 pages.  33 A   I think that's Bruce's handwriting though on page 47.  34 Q  35 "And why were they more salient?  Here the  36 differential power and ranking of a chiefdom-type  37 society versus one organized at the band level are  38 relevant."  39  40 Now, when you got that, did you understand what that  41 meant?  42 A   Do I understand?  43 Q   Yeah?  44 A  Well, I'm not quite sure what you're asking me.  45 THE COURT:  Well, has it been established you -- it may have and  46 I missed it, that Dr. Kari saw this when it came back  47 from Australia? 11751  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 MR. WILLMS:  Well, my lord, I'm assuming that because of the  2 letter and what Dr. Kari said earlier, but maybe I'm  3 mistaken.  4 THE COURT:  I just raised the question, you might have a certain  5 answer for me.  6 MR. WILLMS:  7 Q   Yeah.  I mean the copy that you've got, I mean this --  8 the copy that you brought with you from Alaska --  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Yes.  This is the copy that you got in 1987?  11 A  At some point.  12 Q   At some point?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   All right.  Is it what that says, is that:  "the  15 chiefdom-type society" read "Gitksan", "versus  16 organized at the band level society", read  17 "Wet'suwet'en", isn't that what the distinction is  18 there, or do you know?  19 A   I'm not sure.  He may have meant something more, you  20 know, more pan -- world-wide, he may be running  21 through something in his mind in general in not  22 relating to our local area, but in general to rank  23 society being local societies and things like this.  I  24 can't say what was exactly running through his mind  25 here.  It may be of that nature though.  26 Q   Now, the next place is page 50 of the draft, which is  27 the conclusion, and page 66 --  2 8 A   Um-hum.  29 MR. WILLMS:  Of the report.  30 THE COURT:  What page in the draft?  31 MR. WILLMS:  32 Q   Page 50, my lord.  And in fact, it's probably page 67  33 of the report.  You will see that -- that the draft --  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   At the top of the page has:  36  37 "Large area where on goes/walk walks about."  38  39 A  Where are you now?  40 Q   I'm on page 50 of the draft.  They both say the same  41 thing.  The top of page 67 of the report and then  42 the —  43 A   Yes, okay.  44 Q   Then the draft says:  45  46 "The linguistic evidence points to long and  47 intimate contact between the Gitksan and the 11752  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Wet'suwet'en, with perhaps some shifting of the  2 boundary between them at times in the past."  3  4 A   Um-hum.  5 Q   And then you will see "See new section".  That's Dr.  6 Rigsby's writing?  7 A   That's Rigsby's writing, yes.  8 Q   Now, underneath this, that's Mr. Overstall's writing?  9 A   That's over Overstall's handwriting.  10 Q   Yeah.  Where he says:  11  12 "As it stands, this conclusion is weak."  13  14 All right.  So then Dr. Rigsby has -- if you turn the  15 page in the draft to the handwritten 51, we can then  16 pick up back at the report on page 67 "To begin to sum  17 up"?  18 A   Um-hum.  19 Q   And —  20 A   On page 67, yes.  21 Q   51 in the draft, and if you track that down?  22 A   Yeah.  That looks like new stuff, yeah.  23 Q   And go over to page 68 of the report?  24 A   Yes.  That's an inserted paragraph, yeah.  I had some  25 role in writing that too, that paragraph.  26 Q   And so just so we're at the same place, we end page 51  27 of the draft at "Wet'suwet'en women", and that is it,  28 the last paragraph on the top of the page, page 68 of  29 the report?  30 A   Oh, here, 51, "To begin to sum up", um-hum.  31 Q   And now then, you will see if you turn to page 52 of  32 the draft --  33 A   Um-hum.  34 Q   At the bottom of the page you've got the word "Thus  35 the linguistic evidence", but the whole paragraph  36 about the tantalizing evidence about transitional  37 bilingualism --  38 A   That's missing, isn't it?  39 Q   That's all been deleted, hasn't it?  40 A   Gee, I didn't know that.  I certainly wouldn't want to  41 take that out.  42 Q   No.  You would want that in, wouldn't you?  43 A   Yeah.  There's nothing controversial about it, I  44 mentioned it here in court yesterday, and I guess  45 you're right, it really wasn't in our report, was it,  46 the Adams quote is not in our report?  47 Q   No. 11753  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  THE  COURT:  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  MR.  WILLMS  13  Q  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  34  Q  35  36  37  A  38  MR.  WILLMS  39  THE  COURT:  40  MR.  WILLMS  41  THE  COURT:  42  MR.  WILLMS  43  Q  44  45  46  47  That's a good point.  Can we add it?  Well, all I want to know, the first thing is if you  adopt that it can be added.  You think that should be  in?  Well, I —  It is in.  Something went on -- I have no -- I did not realize a  nice interesting paragraph like that didn't end up in  the report.  I'm -- my memory of the 1830's -- I said  1820's yesterday, that's the same quote I was  referring to.  And then there is a little change in the last  paragraph, and you will see that the last paragraph of  your report reads the same until you get to  "Wet'suwet'en" in the second line, and then you  have -- the rest has been deleted from the draft, and  the rest reads:  "And indeed other Athabaskan-speaking peoples who  formerly lived in the current Gitksan  territories."  Um-hum.  Now --  That's assuming there was that replaced bilingualness  that there could have been Athabaskan speakers down  river further than there is today.  Was it your idea to take that line out; do you know  why it was taken out?  It wasn't my idea to take it out, I hadn't noticed  that it was these two, I didn't know about the  disparities.  Um-hum.  Now, if you turn to tab 2 there is -- and  although it's numbered 1 to 7, this is picked up at  portions of the report?  Um-hum.  :  And in particular, if you turn to --  Sorry, on what page?  :  I'm sorry, tab 2 of Exhibit 883, my lord.  Yes.  And page -- and I'm asking the witness to turn to page  3 of that, and to turn at the same time to page 38 of  the report.  And you will see, if you turn it to page  38 of the report and page 3 of this, if you read  the -- that bottom paragraph: 11754  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 "We have already mentioned that Gitksan has a  2 number of Athabaskan loanwords" --  3  4 And it says "fauna" in the draft and it says "animals"  5 in the final.  But then if you -- you can follow those  6 paragraphs down all the way to "Nishga", which is  7 where the page ends in the report, okay, I am now in  8 the draft.  The draft carried on:  9  10 "This supports the hypothesis that the ancestral  11 homeland of the Tsimshianic-speaking peoples, the  12 location of Proto-Tsimshian, was situated on or  13 near the coast and not in the Interior."  14  15 Now, did you have anything to do with deleting that?  16 A   But I think that's moved, that's not deleted from the  17 report.  That statement, is it in the report?  The  18 Gitsegukla quote does look like a pure deletion.  This  19 looks like a movement, a file movement, block, mark  20 and move is what I think it looks like, you know,  21 when -- you use a word processor, I'm sure, yourself,  22 and so --  23 Q   Maybe, maybe I've just missed that.  I have one more  24 reference here, my lord, and that will complete this,  25 if we can just turn to that.  If you turn to page 6 of  26 tab 2 of the draft and turn at the same time to the  27 report at page 42, and you will see on page 42 of your  28 report the word "The Gitksan language"?  2 9 A   Down at the bottom, yes.  30 MR. WILLMS:  At the bottom, okay, and then if you track at the  31 top of page 6 you will see it doesn't say "language",  32 it just says "The Gitksan" in the draft.  33 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, where are you?  34 MR. WILLMS:  I'm on page 6 at tab 2, my lord, and page 42 of the  35 report.  36 THE COURT:  42 and page 6 of —  37 MR. WILLMS:  Tab 2 of 883.  38 THE COURT:  Tab 2, all right.  Thank you, yes.  39 MR. WILLMS:  40 Q   Page 6.  And I've just asked the witness to look on  41 page 42 of the report:  42  43 "The Gitksan language, remaining behind" --  44  45 It's at the bottom of the page?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And then when you go to the first paragraph at the top 11755  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 you will see -- of the draft -- it says "The Gitksan".  2 Although language has been added and there's been some  3 words changed, some things deleted, you can kind of  4 track it all the way through to "new fauna" in the  5 draft and changed to "animals" in the final?  Are you  6 with me, Dr. Kari?  7 A   I see that sentence, yes.  8 Q   All right.  Now, the next bit is taken out:  9  10 "Many small Athabaskan-speaking hamlets and local  11 groups, such as the Gitxsinjihl of Caribou Creek  12 must have been gradually and peacefully  13 Gitksanized in socioculture and speech.  The fur  14 trade seems to have spurred the Gitksan occupation  15 of the Middle Nass and, especially, the Upper Nass  16 and Upper Skeena territories.  As many oral  17 traditions testify, this was not a peaceful  18 gradual process, but some Athabaskan place names  19 were retained.  It is interesting to note that  20 there were no Gitksan permanent winter villages on  21 the Middle or Upper Nass, nor on the far Upper  22 Skeena.  There were summer fishing camps and  23 hunting-trapping grounds in these territories, but  24 the real bases of operation were the large winter  25 villages at Kitwancool, Kispiox, Kisgegas and  26 Kuldo.  It was during this same period of the fur  27 trade that the Nishga and the Tlingit, along with  28 epidemic disease, reduced the Tsetsaut Athabaskans  29 of Portland Canal to a handful of survivors  30 by the turn of this century."  31  32 Now, just first of all, Dr. Kari, did you have  33 anything to do with taking that out of the final?  34 A   No.  35 Q   No?  But you recognize that this is Dr. Rigsby's view  36 in 1987?  37 A   Yes.  I think you're right.  38 MR. WILLMS:  Yes.  My lord, this would be a good time to  39 adjourn.  40 THE COURT:  Thank you, Mr. Willms.  All right, how are we  41 getting along?  42 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, subject to reviewing the documents which  43 my friend produced after lunch today, I don't have  44 anything other than whatever may arise out of those  4 5 documents.  4 6    THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  Do you think we can comfortably  47 finish tomorrow? 11756  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes, my lord.  2 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, I don't want to speak at this time  3 of the day entorium, but I think we will have to sit  4 Saturday too if we don't finish tomorrow.  5 MR. MACAULAY:  I am assuming that my friend is going to be  6 finished.  7 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  Well, I hope your assumption is  8 right, Mr. Macaulay.  All right, thank you.  Ten  9 o'clock then.  10 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until 10:00  11 a.m. tomorrow.  12  13 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:05)  14  15 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  16 a true and accurate transcript of the  17 proceedings herein transcribed to the  18 best of my skill and ability  19  20  21  22  23 Graham D. Parker  24 Official Reporter  25 United Reporting Service Ltd.  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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