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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-02-06] British Columbia. Supreme Court Feb 6, 1989

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 11439  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  February 6, 1989  Vancouver, B.C.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  Columbia, Vancouver, this Monday, February 6th,  1989.  Calling Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the  Queen at bar, my lord.  THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  MR. RUSH:   My lord, I'm going to intercede for just a moment in  the proceedings and raise with you questions of  scheduling.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  MR. RUSH:   We can schedule the setting aside for the court  weeks for the month of March and April at this time.  THE COURT:  Okay.  MR. RUSH:   The available court dates in March as indicated by  I think last November were March 6th,  THE COURT  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  THE  MR.  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  The available  your lordship  20th and 28th.  Excuse me, Mr.  Rush.  Madam Registrar, would you  phone Mrs. Taylor and ask her to confirm the dates  of the Canadian Judicial Council Meeting.  I think  it is April.  Sorry, Mr. Rush.  Yes.  Well, I have it that we are already scheduled for  March 6th, 20th and 27th?  We are.  Yes.  And I am going to advise your lordship that we  intend to call Dr. Arthur Ray in the week of March  the 20th and Michael Morrell in the week of March  the 28th.  My friends have been advised of that.  That doesn't cover the 6th of March.  That has already been dedicated to the calling of  the evidence of Dr. Antonio Mills.  Now, your  lordship also advised that the available court weeks  in the month of April 10th, 17th and 24th.  10th, 17th and 24th?  Yes.  And you indicated that the week of April the  6th was to be an off week.  Yes.  I think this may be the results of the call to the  registry.  REGISTRAR:  It is 6th, 7th and 8th.  She says you may need  the 5th for travelling unless you leave on the 6th.  COURT:  I will need the 5th for travelling.  REGISTRAR:  So that's Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.  RUSH:   That's the week of the 6th of April.  We did not 11440  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT:  RUSH:  book anything in that week, your lordship having  said that was already dedicated.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. RUSH:   Now, we can set aside those weeks of April for the  calling of evidence.  We are not in a position to  advise who the witnesses will be for those time  slots at this point, but we will keep to the 60-day  advance.  We hope that we can advise our friends at  the end of this week or the beginning of next week  as to the witness who will be called on April the  10th.  All right.  And then we are going to determine whether we can  call two witnesses or one in the remaining weeks of  April.  All right.  At the moment, my lord, we can not schedule the case  for the months of May and June.  And I propose that  we defer to the beginning of the month of March,  March I think -- perhaps we could go to March the  6th.  My suggestion is that in terms of scheduling  the weeks in May and June that we defer that, as I  say, to the first sitting week in the month of  March, that is to say March the 6th.  Now, your  lordship was concerned on the last day that we were  before you at the conclusion of Ms. Harris'  testimony, that is January 27th, as to whether or  not the plaintiffs could complete their case by the  end of June and it is our objective to do that.  All right.  It may be that we will call more witnesses rather  than the two per month that we otherwise thought we  would be calling.  Yes.  We may, in fact, call one more witness in the month  of April and perhaps one more in the month of May in  order to achieve that objective.  So that is really  all that I can advise your lordship about today, and  hopefully by the end of this week or the beginning  of next we will advise you of the witnesses to be  called in those time slots in April.  THE COURT:  All right.  Well, that sounds satisfactory.  Any  response to that, Mr. Macaulay and Mr. Willms?  MR. WILLMS:  No, my lord.  MR. MACAULAY:  No.  MS. MANDELL:  My lord, I will be today and for the balance of  the week here leading and attending to the  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT:  RUSH: 11441  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 cross-examination of Dr. Kari.  If I could pass up  2 to your lordship a book of exhibits which will be  3 made reference to during the direct evidence of Dr.  4 Kari.  And with your lordship's leave, Mike Fleming  5 an articling student for Mr. Rush will be assisting.  6 THE COURT:  Thank you.  7 MS. MANDELL:  If I could call Dr. Kari to the stand, please.  8 THE REGISTRAR:  Take the Bible in your right hand, please.  9  10 JAMES KARI, a witness called on  11 behalf of the Plaintiffs, having  12 been duly sworn, testified as  13 follows:  14  15 THE REGISTRAR:  Would you state your full name for the record,  16 please, and spell your last name?  17 THE WITNESS:  James Kari, K-A-R-I.  18 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  You may be seated.  19 MS. MANDELL:  My lord, I am seeking to tender Dr. Kari as an  20 expert in the area of Athabaskan anthropological  21 linguistics.  I propose to proceed through his  22 curriculum vitae to that end.  My friend Mr. Willms  23 advises that he is not going to be cross-examining  24 with respect to the qualifications of Dr. Kari.  If  25 my friends for the Federal Crown would indicate  26 their position, I would deal with the curriculum  27 vitae in an abbreviated way if we are not dealing  28 with a debate on expertise.  29 MR. MACAULAY:  It will not be necessary to go on lengthy with  30 the curriculum vitae.  We are not challenging the  31 doctor's qualifications.  32 THE COURT:  Thank you.  33  34 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MS. MANDELL:  35 Q    If you could turn to tab 1 of the book of exhibits.  36 And, Dr. Kari, if I could show you at tab 1 there is  37 a curriculum vitae dated January 1989.  You've got a  38 copy of that in front of you; is that right?  39 A    Right.  40 Q    And is that a curriculum vitae which you prepared  41 and which sets out accurately your qualifications?  42 A    Yes, it is.  43 MS. MANDELL:  I would ask that tab 1 be marked as the next  44 exhibit.  45 THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit 871.  The book or just tab  46 one?  47 MS. MANDELL:  Just tab one. 11442  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2 (EXHIBIT 871:  Curriculum Vitae of James Kari)  3  4 MS. MANDELL:  5 Q    If you could turn to page 1 of the curriculum vitae.  6 I notice there that your address is the Alaska  7 Native Language Centre in Fairbanks, Alaska and that  8 under employment the last two items you've indicated  9 is you are an associate and assistant professor of  10 linguistics at the Alaska Native Language Centre.  11 Could you explain to the court what is the work of  12 the Alaska Native Language Centre and what work you  13 do there?  14 A    Well, the Alaska Native Language Centre was  15 established in 1972 and was based at the University  16 of Alaska in Fairbanks to do in-depth language  17 documentation with the 20 native languages in Alaska  18 and various kinds of work, educational materials and  19 academic materials in the native languages.  20 Q    And are the 20 native languages in Alaska all  21 Athabaskan languages?  22 A    No, eleven are Athabaskan and six are Eskimo, and  23 you have Tsimshian and Haida and Tlingit and Eyak.  24 Q    And in order to familiarize the court, the evidence,  25 your evidence, will be that the Babine-Wet'suwet'en  26 language is one of the Athabaskan languages; is that  27 correct?  28 A    That's correct.  29 Q    Now, I notice that you, under education, did your  30 doctoral thesis in Navajo verb prefix phonology.  31 A    Phonology.  32 Q    Is the Navajo language an Athabaskan language?  33 A    Yes, it is.  34 Q    And this is under awards at page 2 the Garland  35 Publishing award.  Was the Garland Publishing award  36 given for your Ph.D. thesis?  37 A    Right.  It was published as a book in 1976.  It's a  38 generative phonological analysis of the Navajo verb  39 and it is still in print.  40 Q    And the book that you are referring to, is that  41 found at page 3 the third item from the bottom of  42 the page?  43 A    Yes, Navajo Verb Prefix Phonology 1976.  44 Q    All right.  I notice under education, and I am back  45 on page 1 that with the -- that you there list under  46 foreign languages a number of languages which follow  47 Turkish.  You've got Spanish and Turkish.  Those are 11443  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 not Athabaskan languages?  2 A    No.  3 Q    Are all the other languages that you've listed after  4 the word "Turkish" Athabaskan languages?  5 A    Yes.  6 Q    And when you say in your education that you take  7 credit or acknowledge these Athabaskan languages  8 under foreign languages, what level of expertise do  9 you claim with respect to your knowledge of those  10 languages?  11 A    Well, the ones I've worked with most intensively I  12 can speak.  I know the vocabulary inventory quite  13 thoroughly.  Others that I have worked with less  14 intensively, you know, I have less ability with in  15 terms of speaking.  It's a scale.  It depends on the  16 relative amount of time I have spent in certain  17 areas.  18 Q    And under linguistic field work, are all of the  19 language groupings there listed Athabaskan languages  20 where you've done your field work?  21 A    That's right.  22 Q    And are those languages listed under linguistic  23 field work where you did a systematic field work in  24 the area?  25 A    Yes.  26 Q    And are there others of the Athabaskan languages  27 where you did do some field work but where you  28 didn't include it in the list because it wasn't  29 systematic?  30 A    Well, yes.  In all of these languages listed on my  31 vitae these are areas where I have lexical files and  32 grammatical files and I accumulate material  33 systematically.  There are half a dozen or so other  34 Athabaskan languages where I have worked with a few  35 speakers and done specific projects.  36 Q    And are any of those in British Columbia?  37 A    Well, a little bit on Sekani and Tahltan.  38 Q    And could you estimate how many speakers, Athabaskan  39 speakers you've done field work with?  40 A   About 375.  41 Q    And is that figure comparatively a large number or  42 an average number or a small number for linguists in  43 your area?  44 A    Well, in terms of the Athabaskan field, and it is a  45 large field -- I mean it is a rather small field, I  46 don't think there are more than 20 or 25 scholars  47 that actively work in Athabaskan linguistics.  I 11444  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 have worked with more speakers than anyone has by  2 actually quite a bit, and more different languages  3 than anyone else has.  4 Q    And when you say "more", would you say 50 speakers  5 or 100 speakers or is it possible to say?  6 A    In comparison to other workers?  7 Q    Yes, in comparison to other workers?  8 A    Well, I haven't really tabulated how many speakers  9 other scholars have worked with, but I have probably  10 worked with twice as many as the second person who  11 would make such a list of numbers of speakers he has  12 worked with.  13 Q    If you could turn to page 2 of your curriculum  14 vitae, the second under professional societies from  15 the list at the top of the page, the second to the  16 last of those societies is The Society for the Study  17 of Indigenous Languages of the Americas.  Can you  18 explain to the court why linguists studying just  19 indigenous languages form together in a society?  20 A    Oh, it's a group of academic colleagues that puts  21 out a newsletter that lists conferences and  22 publications and symposia and various activities in  23 the field in North America and South America too  24 relating to indigenous languages.  It is an academic  25 society.  26 Q    Under grants and contracts, if I could first draw  27 your attention to the third item from the bottom of  28 the page, the third item from the bottom of the  29 list.  You there identify that in a contract with  30 the Native American Rights Fund you were qualified  31 as a witness on the Upper Ahtna fisheries; is that  32 correct?  33 A    Yes.  34 Q    And do you know what level the court was that  35 qualified you as an expert witness?  36 A    Well, it was actually a game board.  The Alaska  37 State Fisheries Board at their official -- you know,  38 at their state meetings that deal with these types  39 of issues.  40 Q    All right.  Now, I'm going to -- all your work with  41 the Wet'suwet'en people was done under a grant or  42 contract and --  43 A    Not all, actually.  Some was out of my pocket.  44 Excuse me, but that's --  45 Q    That's fine.  You correct me where I'm not asking  46 you the right question.  If I could take you to the  47 grants and contracts which gave rise to the work 11445  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  MS.  A  MANDELL  THE COURT:  which you've done with the Wet'suwet'en, and if you  could advise if there is other work at the end of my  listing with you.  The second item is Ethnology  Contract, National Museum of Canada, Research on  Hagwilget Carrier, 1975.  What was your work there  in 1975?  Well, I was there for a period of ten days and  worked with some of the -- it was actually the  second time I was in Hagwilget.  The first time was  in 1973.  That was the first time I met Alfred  Joseph and Dora Wilson-Kenny.  I worked on the  language with, in particular, Alfred Joseph and  Charles and Margaret Austin.  And actually the first  time I started seeing direct linguistic connections  with the Wet'suwet'en and also some of the languages  in Alaska that I also worked with.  And then in 1975 you came back from a contract with  the National Museum of Canada?  Yes.  And you then in 1978 which is the fourth item down  discussed the Ethnography Contract, British Columbia  Provincial --  Ms. Mandell, that is ethnology.  I'm sure  difference.  Excuse me,  there is a  MS. MANDELL:  I'm sure there is.  THE COURT: Okay.  MS. MANDELL:  Q    I'm sure there is.  Ethnology Contract, British  Columbia Provincial Museum, Research on Hagwilget  Carrier, 1987.  Is that the second time that you  were --  A    Third time.  Q    That you were in the area?  A    Yes.  Q    What did you do in 1978?  A    Well, I did a range of grammatical and lexical  projects in the language.  I did this B.C.  classified word list that the B.C. Provincial Museum  used to give to scholars.  There has been about  1,200 items on that list.  That has been transmitted  to you that that was one product of the 1978 work.  That is a lot of vocabulary work organizing semantic  domains.  Q    And you mentioned the fourth item from the bottom of  the list, a contract with Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en  Tribal Council to research Northwest Yenga Deni'  language in 1976.  Is that the work that gave rise 11446  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  to the work that you tendered for the court case?  A    Yes, it is.  I at some point want to make reference  to how I want to refer to the Wet'suwet'en language.  There are a couple of difference inconsistencies in  my resume using alternate names for the language,  but at some point --  Q    Perhaps you could now say how you are going to refer  to the Wet'suwet'en language in your evidence.  A    I will use it as in the Kari-Hargus paper of January  1989 Babine-Wet'suwet'en, and will not refer to it  as Northwestern Carrier as in the Rigsby-Kari 1986  report.  I have reasons for that, but I will use  Babine Wet'suwet'en.  Q    We will talk about the language as the  Babine-Wet'suwet'en language for the purposes of  your evidence.  A    Yes.  Q    The third to the last item on the list you there  state a contract with the Native American Rights --  I'm sorry.  You talk about "with Sharon Hargus".  This is the third to last, a grant from the Canadian  Studies Institutional Research Program.  There you  mention in 1988 work done.  Did you do further work  with the Wet'suwet'en people on the  Babine-Wet'suwet'en language after the report was  contracted for with the Tribal Council?  A    Yes.  Our 1988 project which was through the  Canadian Embassy in Washington, D.C, Program for  American Scholars, we did this project with this  title here to research the northwestern Yenga Deni',  i.e. Wet'suwet'en, Sekani Boundary.  Q    I would like you, if you will, to turn to tab 8 of  the document book.   Is this a letter which you  prepared which details the summary of your field  work and source materials for the work you've done  with the Babine-Wet'suwet'en language?  A    Yes.  MS. MANDELL:  I would like to have that marked as the next  exhibits.  THE COURT:  To whom is this addressed?  MS. MANDELL:  This is addressed to nobody.  THE REGISTRAR:  Dated?  MS. MANDELL:  It is dated September 21, 198?  is addressed to everybody.  THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 872.  I should say it  (EXHIBIT 872:  Letter dated September 21, 19? 11447  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MS.  MANDELL:  Q  A  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  MS.  MANDELL:  Q  A  A  Summary of Field Work)  And I would also ask you at this time if you could  identify this document which I've marked as stem  list.  If you could advise the court what this  document is.  Well, as part of my record or now it is a  co-authored document as Hargus and Kari's record of  our work in the language we file on a computer the  distinct morphemes in the language --  I'm sorry, the distinct?  The morphemes, the distinct meaningful elements,  we file them alphabetically to keep track of the  previous work.  It is an inventory of the past  records that helps to structure future field work so  you don't reduplicate yourself and you can refine  translations and everything.  It is a computerized  dictionary working file which becomes updated with  subsequent work.  And is this stem list recording up until -- does it  record only the Wet'suwet'en words that you were  able to learn from your interviews throughout the  contracts which we've already canvassed?  It is a compilation of all of the previous lexical  and distinct grammatical items in the earlier work.  And as far as 1988 goes, it has not all been entered  yet.  About 25 per cent of the 1988 data has been  entered.  I should add that I do this on the  weekends and in my part time.  If I am working on  this in Alaska I am not doing this as part of my  regular job with the University of Alaska.  I would ask that -- and does this stem list here, is  this the work that you've done?  Is this your stem  list of the Babine-Wet'suwet'en words?  Well, yes, it is Hargus -- Sharon Hargus and I are  both entering the data because we worked together in  '88.  So it has all of my earlier data from the  seventies and up through '86.  It is not restricted  to Wet'suwet'en or Hagwilget or Moricetown.  It  embraces material from Babine Lake and Takla Lake  and Francois Lake and other speakers and communities  that we have worked with.  So it is not strictly  restricted to Wet'suwet'en as you refer to it here  in your proceedings.  But it does refer to the Babine-Wet'suwet'en that 11448  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 you are going to be speaking about?  2 A    Yes, the Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  3 THE COURT:  Doctor, do you call it Wet'suwet'en or Wet'suwet'en?  4 THE WITNESS:  Wet'suwet'en.  5 MS. MANDELL:  I would ask that it be marked as the next exhibit.  6 THE COURT:  Does this have any other designation except stem  7 list?  8 THE WITNESS:  Well, the Babine-Wet'suwet'en stem list as  9 bibliographic reference we are calling it  10 Kari-Hargus no date N.D., you know, as an academic  11 reference.  12 THE COURT:  All right.  13 THE REGISTRAR:  That will be Exhibit 873.  14  15 (EXHIBIT 873:  Stem List, Computer Dictionary)  16  17 MS. MANDELL:  18 Q    And if you could turn to tab 2 of the book of  19 documents.  I won't be asking that this be marked as  20 an exhibit at this time, but I would like you to  21 identify what is found within tab 2.  22 A    Tab 2 is the Rigsby-Kari 1986 report that we've  23 prepared for the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en Tribal Council  24 at that time.  25 Q    And tab 3, could you identify that, please?  26 A    These are the appendices that were bound together at  27 the time in a separate report.  I have my copies  28 right here, the appendices that go with part of tab  29 2.  3 0 Q    And tab 4?  31 A    Well, that's another -- well, that's one -- I have  32 appendix C and D.  This seems to be a bit -- we seem  33 to be missing some pages in what I have here as far  34 as the full sequence of appendices go.  The  35 pagination might be off.  36 Q    These are the amendments.  37 A    Oh, this is just the amendments.  Yeah, okay, there  38 was some errata that I corrected in the appendix C  39 and D and had transmitted last fall.  Some  40 handwritten diacritics had been left out of the  41 appendix C and D in these pages.  So that's what tab  42 4 is with some handwritten diacritics during the  43 editorial process that were accidentially omitted.  44 Q    And could you explain to his lordship what tab 5 is  45 containing?  46 A    Tab 5, and I would like to point out that the date  47 at the upper right-hand corner should say 1989.  It 11449  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 is important.  It was not January of '88, but just  2 January of this year.  This is the paper that  3 results from our 1988 work in British Columbia that  4 we have transmitted as a -- well, we presented it as  5 our report for our 1988 grant on the Sekani  6 Babine-Wet'suwet'en linguistic boundary.  This is a  7 paper that advances in a number of ways some of the  8 material from Rigsby-Kari 1986, in other words the  9 tab 2 and tab 3 reports.  Some areas are advanced by  10 the material in this paper.  11 Q    Has the paper at tab 5 been submitted for  12 publication?  13 A    It will be, but it hasn't yet.  We are circulating  14 this as a draft to you folks and a few colleagues.  15 We will submit it.  We are going to submit it to  16 American Anthropologist.  17 Q    And this was a paper prepared by yourself and with  18 the assistance of Sharon Hargus?  19 A    Yes.  20 Q    If I could ask you to turn back now to the  21 curriculum vitae under publications.  Your  22 publications are listed at pages 3, 4, 5 and 6.  I'm  23 not going to ask you to go through that exstensive  24 list, but I would like to be able to better  25 understand the range of areas that you've written on  26 with respect to the Athabaskan language.  If I could  27 first direct you to an item in the publication that  28 appears on page 3 at the bottom under "forthcoming".  29 The last item you've got "Ahtna Dictionary".  I  30 notice that throughout the publications and  31 particularily on page 5 there is many publications  32 which deal with dictionary references.  And by way  33 of example, if I could draw to your attention the  34 seventh item down on the list, the 12th item down,  35 the 13th, the 16th and the 18th.  There is others,  36 but if I could just ask you to address your mind to  37 the publications respecting dictionary and ask you  38 what is it that you do when you look at an area and  39 publishing with respect to dictionaries?  40 A    Well, as a specialist in Athabaskan I am interested  41 in the vocabulary and the localized areas that might  42 be plant names or place names or verbs, various  43 kinds of verbs and other grammatical particles.  I  44 file these by the structure, the morpheme and then  45 we produce these.  That is basic to our work in  46 Alaska, of course.  We are working with very small  47 languages that are not going to be with us very much 11450  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 longer in Alaska, so there is an extinction factor  2 in trying to do this kind of documentation with the  3 Alaskan languages.  I have had a lot of interest in  4 what you could call local knowledge.  5 Q    All right.  And the Ahtna Dictionary which is a  6 forthcoming publication, how would you identify that  7 as a -- in terms of its comprehensiveness in  8 relation to the other dictionaries which have been  9 published by you?  10 A    Well, in terms of my work and my career, it is the  11 single biggest project that I have done.  It is a  12 large computerized dictionary.  I have worked with  13 about 80 speakers of Ahtna and almost all the older  14 speakers.  I have a very balanced coverage of four  15 dialects of the language and over 6,000 entries all  16 computerized and supplemented by about 15,000  17 examples and an English index with over 11,000  18 items.  It is a very large dictionary using  19 essentially what I could say are very modern  20 computerized methods for sorting words and  21 automatically creating an index and things like  22 that.  23 Q    And that is the Athabaskan dictionary?  24 A    Yes, Ahtna Athabaskan and that is the language there  25 on the map right there in the Copper River Area.  It  26 is A-H-T-N-A.  It is spoken by less than 100 people  2 7                now.  28 Q    That map that you are referring to, are you talking  29 about the Krauss map?  30 A    This is the Alaskan Native Language Centre, a map of  31 the Native Languages of Alaska on top there.  32 Q    You also in your publications have extensively  33 published in the area of geography and place names.  34 I here refer you by example on page 5 of your  35 curriculum vitae at the bottom item the Ahtna Place  36 Names List at Fairbanks.  And then at page 6 at the  37 top of the page the 1987 edition of Shem Pete's  38 Alaska, the Territory of the Upper Cook Inlet.  39 There are many others.  But could you explain to --  40 I think also if I could take you back to page 3, the  41 third item from the bottom of the list entitled  42 publications you've got Some Principles of Alaskan  43 Athabaskan -- is that toponymic?  44 A    Toponymic Knowledge.  45 Q    Toponymic Knowledge?  46 A    Yes.  47 Q    And is that also a place name publication? 11451  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 A    Well, yes, an ethnogeographic or place name  2 publication.  A subfield of mine is ethnogeography  3 and that is native place naming and that involves  4 basic inventory of the name and mapping of the name  5 as well as etymologizing and translating the name.  6 And in that one paper you just mentioned now in  7 Alaska I am making some broader generalizations  8 about environmental perception and time depth and  9 historicity and place naming and different issues  10 such as that in terms of Alaska.  And I also with  11 the Wet'suwet'en in '86 helped them with some of  12 their filing as they were going on a filing system  13 for their place names work.  14 Q    Your doctoral thesis was with respect to grammar.  I  15 notice quite a number of other publications also  16 with respect to grammar.  What is it there that you  17 are looking at when you are studying the grammar of  18 the Athabaskan language?  19 A    Well, these all fit in together when you do language  20 work.  I don't just do names like nouns like plant  21 lists or place names.  I also study the verbs and  22 the grammar in my 1979 publication called Athabaskan  23 Verb Theme Categories:  Ahtna is based on -- it is a  24 morphological semantic characterization of classes  25 of verbs in the Ahtna language which explain certain  26 things about the complex prefix stem correspondences  27 in Ahtna and has comparative values.  So there have  28 been two books, one published and one forthcoming  29 that have adopted this and implied this theory in  30 those two cases to Sarcee in Alberta and to Slavey  31 in the Northwest Territories.  And there are two  32 dissertations that are being written now that are  33 based on my 1979 study:  One at the University of  34 Colorado which relates to Koyukon, and one at the  35 University of New Mexico which relates to Navajo.  36 This is a grammatical area where this one paper I  37 wrote seems to be somewhat influential.  38 Q    And at page 3 there is an item which deals with  39 Anthropological Reconstruction of Prehistory.  And  40 if I could draw your attention to the 5th item from  41 the bottom of the list entitled publication.  Could  42 you explain to his lordship what the publication in  43 this area seeks to advance with respect to the  44 knowledge of the Athabaskan language?  45 A    You're referring to Linguistics Insights into  46 Dena'ina Prehistory?  47 Q    That's right. 11452  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 A    Yeah, that's a recent paper of mine.  It refers to  2 the Dena'ina of Cook Inlet in this area around  3 Anchorage and this horseshoe shaped area around  4 Anchorage.  It is a very interesting Alaskan  5 Athabaskan language with four very different  6 dialects from each other.  What I am doing is  7 modelling a sequence of migrations into Cook Inlet  8 because apparently that was Eskimo territory at one  9 time, and in part of their modern territory.  Their  10 modern territory is 41,000 square miles.  The  11 language does have bearing of how they might have  12 entered Cook Inlet in, I theorize, three different  13 phases and so forth.  But this combines language  14 information and other knowledge from the  15 ethnographic sources and also comparative  16 information on Eskimo and the neighbouring  17 languages, borrowings between Eskimo and Dena'ina  18 and use of kyacks and Eskimo-like technology that  19 they do use for -- there are also only Athabaskans  20 on the ocean in the north so there is some real  21 interesting issues there about their ocean terms and  22 marine terms like Beluga whale and seal that enter  23 into the argument.  And just for example, their  24 ocean terms do seem to be recent borrowings and  25 marine oriented.  But there is a proto-Athabaskan  26 word for whale.  27 Q    And lastly your publications do indicate many in the  28 area of what you call narratives or storytelling.  29 If I could just refer you to page 6 to the two  30 items, one is 1986 and one 1987 at the top of the  31 page.  I'm excluding the middle item in 1987 dealing  32 with place names.  Could you explain what the area  33 of storytelling is that you concentrate on?  34 A    Well, through my work I work with the older  35 generation people by and large and some of them are  36 outstanding storytellers.  I have made tape  37 recording collections, in fact way beyond what are  38 actually published or available right now with some  39 of the foremost storytellers in Alaska such as Shem  40 Pete and Belle Deacon and Katie John, very well  41 known Alaskan elders.  42 Q    And we've got here appendixed to this board two  43 maps.  I wonder if you could identify the maps and  4 4 where they came from?  4 5 A    The two maps?  46 Q    The first one, the top map?  47 A    Yes, the top map is the map from my research centre 11453  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  MS.  MANDELL  21  THE  COURT:  22  THE  WITNESS  23  24  MS.  MANDELL  25  Q  26  27  28  29  30  31  A  32  33  THE  COURT:  34  THE  WITNESS  35  MS.  MANDELL  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  COURT:  that we published, The Map of Alaskan Native  Languages.  This is the 1982 edition.  The original  is 1970 -- or the first version is 1974 so this  incorporates 1980 census data.  And this is a map prepared by Dr. Krauss?  Krauss, yes, the director of the Alaska Native  Language Centre is the author of the map.  The inset  of the map is useful for our discussions this week  with the red area being Athabaskan language area,  the larger Athabaskan language family in North  America.  And then the bottom --  The bottom map is Suttles 1985.  Perhaps some of you  here in B.C. see this in book stores and so forth.  This is a very nice map of the northwest coast  indigenous languages with the colour coding.  In  this map the grey area are the Athabaskan languages  so some of these are here in Northern British  Columbia, of course.  :  My lord —  No.  :  This is also the first map that accorded language  status to what is called Babine.  I don't intend to mark them, although use them for  reference.  But this is the map, as I understand it,  which shows the Athabaskan Alaska languages and this  is the Yukon, Alaska, B.C. and down into the coastal  area.  The grey area shows the Athabaskan areas as  it enters British Columbia.  This would be where Anchorage is on the left and on  the right is north of San Francisco.  This one here?  :  Yes.  :  If I could just advise your lordship and my  friends, the Suttles map, the bottom one is listed  among the publications in the report found at tab 2  at page 80 which is the source reference for it and  is referred to at page 53 of the report.  And the  Krauss map, the upper one is a map which is  published.  It is published from the Alaska Native  Language Centre.  It was published in 1974.  It has  a second run, a second edition which is the 1982  map.  It is quite well known.  If I could ask you to  turn to tab 2 of the report and to turn as well  to —  Tab 2? 11454  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1  MS.  MANDELL  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  A  8  MS.  MANDELL  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  THE  COURT:  17  MS.  MANDELL  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  THE  COURT:  28  MS.  MANDELL  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  THE  COURT:  39  MS.  MANDELL  40  41  42  THE  COURT:  43  44  MS.  MANDELL  45  Q  46  47  A  Tab 2, page 47.  Dr. Kari, I would also invite you  to answer the questions with references to the map,  the maps that are on the board if that aids you in  answering the general questions which I am now going  to ask you about the Athabaskan language.  Does anyone have a pointer?  :  You say at the top of page 47, and if I could turn  you there.  If I could just identify for your  lordship the first portion of the report beginning  with the chapter -- with chapter 1 at page 5 to page  46 was prepared by Dr. Rigsby.  And I'll be dealing  with that report in more general terms probably in  argument.  Dr. Rigsby's evidence is not going to be  cross-examined upon.  Yes.  :  And the part which was prepared by Dr. Kari is at  page 47 to page 59.  That's the portion that deals  with the Wet'suwet'en-Babine language exclusively.  The final chapter which was found at page 60 to 68  of the report is a chapter which was prepared by Dr.  Kari and Dr. Rigsby together dealing with the  relationship of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  languages.  Dr. Kari will be led into that chapter  and will answer questions with respect to it.  I'm  going to deal with the report now at page 47.  Yes.  :  You identify at the top of the page that:  "The Athabaskan or Dene language family  consists of about 40 closely related  languages of northern and western North  America."  And then the page if you turn it over you have there  appendixed a map done by Mr. Parr which you've  identified as figure one.  I'm sorry, a map where?  :  I'm sorry, some of them are right at the beginning  of the report.  Figure one which is either found on  the first page of the report --  Yes.  It is page one on my copy.  It is before the  index.  Could you explain first of all who Mr. Parr was who  did this map?  Well, he published this in a 1974 Museum of Cannon 11455  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  8  Q  9  10  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  THE  COURT:  17  THE  WITNESS  18  THE  COURT:  19  THE  WITNESS  20  21  22  23  24  THE  COURT:  25  26  27  MS.  MANDELL  28  Q  29  30  31  32  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  A  Mercury Series, a publication called Bibliography of  Athabaskan Languages.  And is it similar to the map which is found in the  inset?  It is similar to the map coloured in red on this  inset on the Alaskan map.  It shows the continental  distribution of the Athabaskan language family.  You say that:  "It shows the distribution of the  Athabaskan language."  At what point in time is it  that this distribution is here illustrated?  Well, roughly speaking, from what we know about  traditional territories at the points of contact  which is a scale of different dates and different  areas, so it is roughly like say 1800 to maybe 1750  to 1800.  I'm sorry, what is from 1750 to 1800?  : The continental distribution of the languages.  Has been this way since that time?  :  There has been modifications.  There are extinct  languages and abandoned areas such as in Texas.  The  Lippon Apache is an extinct language now.  So this  shows say the Lippon Apache territory in Texas as it  seems to have been before they went extinct.  I'm sorry, I am just not clear what it is you are  telling me about this map with relation to those  dates .  I would like to get it clearly placed on the record  too.  Is this map here demonstrating the  distribution of the Athabaskan language family as  the language was understood to be distributed  post-contact?  No, at time of contact.  That's the same principle  applied in these two maps, by the way.  Estimates of  traditional territory in some cases based on firmer  evidence than others or more explicit evidence than  others.  In other cases you have living languages  and remaining use and occupation of territories and  in some cases you do not, but --  Just before we get into the changes.  Yes.  At the time of contact, to the best of Mr. Parr's  knowledge and Mr. Krauss and others --  Yes.  This was the way that the Athabaskan language was  distributed in the North American continent?  Yes. 11456  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1  THE  COURT:  2  THE  WITNESS  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  A  13  14  15  16  THE  COURT:  17  18  19  THE  WITNESS  20  21  22  23  24  25  MS.  MANDELL  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  I'm sorry, what is your date of contact?  :  Well, it is a scale that varies.  The earliest  records that could document Lippon Apache in Texas I  wouldn't know, but it would probably be 1750's or  something.  And say in Alaska Cook sailed here in  1778.  We know he contacted Tanaina's there.  So  this is for the Tanaina Cook Inlet an estimation, a  pretty accurate estimation of where their territory  was and still is in that case too at the times of  contact say.  What time was that?  Say 1778 at that time in Cook Inlet.  This  ethnographic mapping is a subfield in anthropology  which, you know, involves a lot of use of documents  and so forth.  But you wouldn't call Cook sailing into the  Anchorage area as the contact for all of Alaska,  would you or would you?  :  Well, in that particular case there is a  vocabulary collected with numerals which you could  recognize as Tanaina language at a point possession  opposite Anchorage.  So it is the first time those  people entered history.  That is the first historic  record of that particular Athabaskan people.  So is it fair to say that the map here represents  the distribution of the Athabaskan languages at the  point when each of those Athabaskan languages were  first recorded in non-Indian history?  That's right.  And those dates will vary somewhat throughout the  North American content?  Of course.  And what is your working knowledge as to the dates  that are spanned by this map?  Oh, I guess the late 18th century would be the  earliest dates.  I am not sure of the Spanish  documents, you know.  I know say for  Babine-Wet'suwet'en the first historic record of  those people is 1811 of the people here you are  talking about in your case here.  And if you still regard figure 1, this is not the  distribution necessarily of the Athabaskan languages  today?  That's true.  And could you identify in general terms to his  lordship where with reference to this map there are 11457  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 not Athabaskan speaking peoples grouped now where  2 formerly and at the time of the construction of this  3 figure 1 that there would be?  4 A    You mean some abandoned or extinct areas?  5 Q    Yes.  6 A    Well, like I mentioned the Lippon Apache in Texas.  7 Or in California or Oregon some of the groups here  8 which we will be referring to in my testimony in  9 some detail they are the small languages in the hill  10 country here north of San Francisco and then up to  11 the Columbia River.  There are, depending on how you  12 count them, about eight Athabaskan languages there  13 and they are all extinct except for Hupa and Tolowa.  14 And Hupa has about ten speakers and Tolowa has five  15 speakers.  16 THE COURT:  Could we have the spelling for those?  17 THE WITNESS:  Hupa is H-U-P-A and Tolowa is T-O-L-O-W-A.  That  18 branch of Athabaskan down the coast is known as  19 Pacific Coast Athabaskan.  If I say PCA, that's our  20 standard abbreviation PCA.  But we talk about this  21 cluster of languages there.  And in terms of the  22 Babine-Wet'suwet'en language data and their  23 historical positions and some inferences about time  24 depth on Babine-Wet'suwet'en, I will make reference  25 to Pacific Coast Athabaskan.  2 6 Q    All right.  27 A   And then the south western group is usually called  28 South Western Athabaskan or Apachean it is sometimes  29 referred to.  30 Q    Now, if I could ask you to turn back to page 47 of  31 your report.  You there mention that the languages  32 are in three regions.  You identify the central  33 Alaskan, northern and northwest Canada; the Pacific  34 coast of Oregon and California, and the Southwestern  35 United States formerly extending south into north  36 Mexico.  That is just a repeat of the description of  37 the figure of that inset that we have looked at on  38 figure one; is that correct?  39 A    Yes.  40 Q    Now, you say that:  41  42 "The Athabaskan languages have two  43 distinctly related congeners, Tlingit on  44 the southeastern coast of Alaska and Eyak,  45 now extinct, at the mouth of the Copper  46 River in Alaska."  47 1145?  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 If you could first explain what is a congener?  2 A   A congener, a related language.  But what we are  3 talking about here is a much deeper time depth.  4 This is what is in the academic literature referred  5 to as the Na-Dene hypothesis.  And that is N-A,  6 hyphen, D-E-N-E.  The Na-Dene hypothesis that there  7 is a distant relationship between Eyak this language  8 here at the mouth of the Copper River and all other  9 Athabaskan, all of other Athabaskan which may be 40  10 other languages.  And that is again preceded by an  11 earlier in time much more ancient relationship  12 between Tlingit and then Eyak and then all of  13 Athabaskan.  You can look at it as a branching tree  14 with three branches with Eyak being closer related  15 to Athabaskan, but a distinct branch and a whole  16 cluster of Athabaskan languages on another branch  17 which are very homogenous and very similar to each  18 other.  Navajo is very close to Alaskan languages  19 and to Wet'suwet'en, very close.  It is striking.  A  20 lay person could see the very close similarities.  21 And Eyak is -- you can see the relationships, but  22 the morpheme count is more like 35, 40 per cent  23 cognate whereas in the other Athabaskan languages it  24 is a very high percentage in the morpheme count.  25 And then Tlingit is somewhere out there in a time  26 depth that suggests ancient occupation of the  27 northwest coast.  In the panhandle southeastern  28 Alaskan area and relationships with Eyak and  29 Athabaskan.  So there are these issues of modelling  30 of prehistory that come up:  Where was the  31 proto-Athabaskan homeland and those kinds of things.  32 MS. MANDELL:  We will deal with that in more depth, but I would  33 like to --  34 THE COURT:  Excuse me, Ms. Mandell.  Could you show me where the  35 Copper River area is?  36 THE WITNESS:  This is Ahtna where I've been doing my work.  The  37 down-river language at the mouth of the Copper River  38 is Eyak.  Eyak is spoken by two people today.  39 THE COURT:  Where is it again?  40 THE WITNESS: Copper River Delta.  41 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  Thank you.  42 MS. MANDELL:  43 Q    I just wanted to clarify that the Eyak and the  44 Tlingit languages as you've testified are  45 hypothesized to be the grandfather languages to the  46 present day Athabaskan languages; is that correct?  47 A    Well, that's -- I wouldn't use the term grandfather. 11459  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  MS.  MANDELL:  Q  A  But they suggest that there was a proto Na-Dene  language from which all three descended.  You have  to look at some very ancient time depth there 6,000  years and earlier when there could be such a  construct and some interesting possibilities of  movements in different directions in order to  account for that.  Yes, there are some -- no  question Tlingit is related to Athabaskan at a very  ancient level, and Eyak is intermediate in terms of  time and is related to Athabaskan and Tlingit, no  question.  And the 40 related languages which you testified to  at the beginning of the paragraph on page 46, would  all 40 of those related languages have some root  stems connected to either Eyak or to Tlingit?  Yes, there are some.  And there are striking -- I  mean the morphology of the verb, the structure of  the verb in these languages is unique in the world  and Tlingit has this verb morphology and Eyak has  the verb morphology and all the Athabaskan languages  do too.  Being when I say unique in the world, they  have a root at the end of the word and then these  long strings of prefixes in front of the root and  there are very few languages that have had such long  prefixing structures in the left-hand side of the  root in the world.  I'm not sure of that word.  Are you saying root or  route.  R-O-O-T?  :  R-O-O-T.  But the typological form of these  languages is unique and unusual.  There is obviously  relationship between Tlingit and Eyak and Athabaskan  in various ways, interesting ways.  All right.  At page 47 you quote from Sapir.  And  first of all before we get into the quote, could you  advise his lordship who Dr. Sapir was?  Oh, Edward Sapir was the foremost American linguist  in 1920's and '30's.  He died in 1939.  And one of  his specializations was Athabaskan.  He is the one  who formulated the Na-Dene hypothesis in 1915.  So  this is not a new hypothesis.  He formulated the  Na-Dene hypothesis.  It is perhaps relevant to know  the debate here on Haida in the Queen Charlotte  Islands.  Sapir wanted to include Haida in Na-Dene  and Krauss now in more recent publications wants to  exclude Haida from Na-Dene in the Queen Charlotte  Islands.  The conservative view today is that Haida 11460  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 is not part of the Na-Dene hypothesis.  So the  2 hypothesis has changed in academic debate since  3 Sapir formulated it in 1915.  4 Q    You quote Sapir to this proposition.  You say:  5  6 "The Athabaskan languages are as clearly  7 unified, as structurally specialized, a  8 group as any that I know of.  The speakers  9 of the languages belong to four distinct  10 culture areas -- the simple hunting culture  11 of western Canada and the interior of  12 Alaska and mentions two communities, the  13 buffalo culture of the plains (Sarcee), the  14 highly  ritualized culture of the Southwest  15 (Navajo), and the peculiarly specialized  16 culture of the northwestern California  17 (Hupa).  The cultural adaptability of the  18 Athabaskan-speaking peoples is in strongest  19 contrast to the inaccessibility to the  20 foreign influences of the languages  21 themselves."  22  23 And I would like you first to explain to his  24 lordship what Dr. Sapir is here trying to get at in  25 the last sentence that you quoted from him as  26 saying.  27 A    Well, Sapir was making a generalization that  28 Athabaskans say the Navajos live in the southwest  29 and they have adopted what look like pueblo  30 religious paraphernalia and pueblo religious  31 terminology.  At the same time when you look at  32 their languages it is pure Athabaskan and then they  33 have these names say for pueblo in their Navajo  34 stories.  They are all Athabaskan origin names in  35 their morphology or sand painting and all of this  36 complex stuff which say northern Athabaskans don't  37 have.  So they are constantly innovating terms.  38 There is very interesting problems in the Athabaskan  39 character being very innovative and expansive.  4 0 They've expanded throughout North America over the  41 last 2,000 years into different environments and  42 have in very sophisticated ways remained themselves,  43 remained a distinct Dene people or Athabaskan people  44 and have --  45 Q    Do you adopt the quote that is here mentioned by Dr.  46 Sapir as being an accurate statement of your  47 knowledge of the Athabaskan peoples? 11461  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 A    Yes.  2 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, do you?  3 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is a generalization.  It is a textbook  4 generalization, but yes.  5 MS. MANDELL:  6 Q    You then next speak about the origin of the  7 languages and its dispersal dates.  I would like to  8 take you to the first sentence and the first  9 paragraph of page 48.  You say:  10  11 "The origin of the languages is somewhere in  12 the north..."  13  14 And then you later in the paragraph say:  15  16 "The proto-homeland may have been around the  17 Alaska-Yukon Territory border because this is  18 the point of deepest divergence within the  19 language family."  20  21 And you cite here Krauss for that observation.  Can  22 you first explain to his lordship whether or not the  23 data which is collected about the point of origin of  24 the languages, is that hypothetical?  25 A    Yes, it is hypothetical and subject to various kinds  26 of debate.  And all the languages as they become  27 better documented contribute their own uniqueness to  28 that kind of debate.  29 Q    And could you with reference to the Suttle map  30 indicate whether from your study of the Athabaskan  31 language where the perimeters of the proto-homeland  32 could be?  33 A    Well, you have to keep the Eyak and Tlingit in mind  34 and the Athabaskan being -- and numerous Athabaskan  35 languages as being in the coastal mountains or in  36 the various cordilleran languages all the way from  37 Alaska down to British Columbia as well as in wider  38 areas.  Of course, you have got a 4,000 mile Eskimo  39 boundary with Athabaskan throughout the high arctic  40 and throughout Northern Canada and Alaska all the  41 way to Hudson's Bay.  You have all of these problems  42 to keep in mind, but it does appear that Athabaskans  43 are expansive this way into going easterly --  44 THE COURT:  Southeasterly?  45 THE WITNESS: Across to Canada.  It does appear that they are  46 expansive this way.  I mentioned a little bit about  47 Tanaina and not necessarily always having been here. 11462  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 There is a westward direction in Alaska we can show.  2 Of course, we have the major out migrations and  3 dispersals in California and Oregon in the  4 southwest.  And to show some of this reasoning is  5 really very basis and logical, navajo and Apache are  6 very closely related to each other and that  7 indicates that they probably haven't been in the  8 southwest all that long.  And the earliest  9 archaeological for Navajo positive evidence is  10 around 1300 A.D.  But in these California and Oregon  11 groups we are looking at deeper time depth because  12 there are about six different languages there and  13 that means they have had more time in that area than  14 the Navajo and Apache have in their area.  So we get  15 into some of these relative dates.  But then some of  16 the modelling you look at is how large or maybe how  17 small was the proto-Athabaskan homeland before this  18 expansion and dispersal.  19 Q    And what are the ranges in terms of the  20 proto-Athabaskan homeland which hypothetically would  21 fit to the data that you and others have collected?  22 A    Well, you have to keep the Eyak close to the -- I  23 mean not necessarily very close but, you know, in  24 some general picture of the proto-Athabaskan  25 homelands.  We think the Eyak possibly were since  26 cut off on one of these rivers like the Chitna River  27 for many thousands of years and lived alone and then  28 moved down to the coast, that's one theory about the  29 Eyaks.  So that's one possibility of the Eyak.  So  30 keeping them in the range for their deep divergence  31 at say 3,500-year level and the other Athabaskans  32 being off somewhere.  We are looking at areas here  33 in central Alaska, central to eastern Alaska,  34 definitely salmon would be salmon fishery areas and  35 parts of the Yukon River.  A small proto-Athabaskan  36 homeland might be like that, you know.  37 Now, another model would be cordilleran wide  38 north-south proto-Athabaskan homeland with a  39 continuous network of languages in the cordillera  40 and perhaps at the earliest onsets of deglaciation  41 in the cordilleran in British Columbia.  42 THE COURT:  Excuse me, Doctor, this word "cordilleran".  43 THE WITNESS:  Do you use that much for the northern B.C.  44 mountains?  45 THE COURT:  Tell us what it means before we can tell you.  46 THE WITNESS:  Well, it is a Spanish origin name for mountain  47 range. 11463  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1  THE  COURT:  2  THE  WITNESS  3  THE  COURT:  4  THE  WITNESS  5  THE  COURT:  6  THE  WITNESS  7  8  9  THE  COURT:  10  THE  WITNESS  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  THE  COURT:  19  THE  WITNESS  20  MS.  MANDELL  21  Q  22  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  THE  COURT:  43  THE  WITNESS  44  45  46  47  Cordillera?  :  Cordillera.  You are talking about a mountain range?  :  Excuse me, my lord, cordillera.  Cordillera, we don't use that very often.  :  Excuse me, but say in the 1981 handbook of North  American Indians there is an article on the  cordilleran environments and things like this.  That means the environment of the mountain range?  :  Yeah, what I am referring to are the coastal  mountains, the glaciated mountains in northern  British Columbia that stretch to the Yukon Territory  and then link up with what we call the Alaska Range  in Alaska.  So in the general northwest, the  mountain ranges of northwest America it looks like  the proto-Athabaskan homeland was just east of that  behind that.  What we call the coast range.  :  The coast range.  And would the Babine-Wet'suwet'en territory be part  of the proto-Athabaskan homeland on that theory?  Not necessarily.  But if they were, they would  certainly be about as far south as you could place  it.  But then these are hypothetical issues that at  that time depth I am not -- I mean we are talking,  you know, six to ten thousand year time depth.  They  were somewhere.  And whether they were that far  south, we would have to start looking at more  sophisticated correlates with the archaeological  record.  But we, you know, feel that there is  evidence for early -- you know, there is early  modelling too.  But through linguistic relative  dating with comparative linguistics we move with the  present back and we deal with more shallow time  depths with more comfort and ease.  And you're  raising questions that I wouldn't want to commit  myself on as a scholar.  But I have made the point  that the Babine-Wet'suwet'en do represent an early  southern perimeter of northern Athabaskan.  That is  a conservative statement to make.  I think we need a definition of proto-homeland.  :  Historical linguistics, your lordship, say in the  development of Indo-European linguistics and  discovery 200 years ago that Sanskrit is related to  German and Latin and regular sound changes.  Immediately in European scholarship the Urheimat -- 11464  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  The reporter is going to need a spelling of that,  please.  :  U-R-H-E-I-M-A-T.  A German word for an ancient  homeland or fatherland was used in European or in  historical linguistic scholarship for what area  might the Indo-Europeans have lived in before a  dispersal, large dispersal in European Asia.  Well, I think I understand what an ancient homeland  might be, but what is a proto-homeland?  :  Well, a proto-homeland would relate to also the  term of proto-language.  And a proto-language is  what we do when we compare say in the Athabaskan  case all the descended languages that we have  records of.  We make reconstructions of the  linguistic structure and the environments and  perhaps culture that is implied in the vocabulary  and then you look at environments in the landscape  where you might possibly fit that language and  culture at earlier points in time.  I'm sure this is terrribly simplistic, but do you  equate proto to sources or beginnings of language or  do you relate it to a language in relation to some  other fixed time?  :  Well, both in a sense, yes.  The proto-language  does make a statement that there was a common  ancestral language that precedes these related --  these related daughter languages say 40 Athabaskan  languages that we know of today.  And going back in  time that implies a northerly direction, a north to  south drift and an easterly drift and so forth, and  we do look at time.  We look at time of dispersal  and we look at possible earlier depths in time which  would account for the Eyak branching and the Tlingit  branching at ancient times.  So it is a hypothesis.  It is a reconstruction based on language evidence.  The last time we were here we were talking about  archaeology and proto-historical findings which was  related to the time of contact.  You are not using  it in that sense?  :  That's a good question.  Proto-history for an  archaeologist means the immediate periods before the  historic periods take over.  You are not using it in that sense?  :  No, not at all.  Good question, your lordship.  The time depth of proto-history and archaeology in  this area would be like 1,600 or 1,700 or 1,500  maybe A.D.  A.D. like 300, 400, 500 years ago.  And 11465  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  THE COURT:  when we talk about a proto-Athabaskan homeland or a  proto-Na-Dene homeland, we are assuming at upper  limits that a proto-Athabaskan homeland could have  been occupied 10,000 years ago.  That's now fairly  safely established.  And it stayed as a unit until  possibly about 2,500 years ago.  It stayed as a  unit.  I don't like to address early limits, but  when you talk about 2,500 years ago of a broader  dispersal from the proto-Athabaskan homeland, that's  the time range we are talking about.  So proto in your dictionary has reference to ancient  or beginning?  :  Yeah, the ancestral language, the reconstruction  of the ancestral language and the modelling of where  that ancestral language might be.  If I were to give  you an example from Polynesia in the Pacific, they  have this same reasoning of Polynesian dispersal  about the Pacific Islands.  They place that  proto-Polynesian homeland around Figi and Samoan,  for example.  We will take the morning adjournment, please.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court will recess.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  I hereby certify the foregoing to  be a true and accurate transcript  of the proceedings herein to the  best of skill and ability.  LISA FRANKO, OFFICIAL REPORTER  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 11466  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO AN ADJOURNMENT)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 MS. MANDELL:  If I could turn your attention back to page 48,  5 having I hope for the record identified a  6 proto-homeland, what it is.  7 THE COURT:  Well, first of all, there is still a problem with  8 it.  Why proto-homeland?  Is that not redundant?  9 Why not just homeland?  10 THE WITNESS:  Well, that's true except — you could use that  11 except that you could talk about people being in  12 many other areas at later times which is their  13 homeland.  14 THE COURT:  All right.  15 THE WITNESS:  Or if I talk about a Tanaina homeland, east of the  16 Alaska range, I mean a modelling that -- oh, two  17 thousand years ago or so and then over here is their  18 present homeland and we are talking about a  19 proto-Athabaskan homeland, we are talking about  20 something more compact and consolidated prior to the  21 present distribution of the languages that we know.  22 MS. MANDELL:  23 Q    All right.  You say that, at page 48 in the second  24 paragraph, the second line:  25  26 "The dispersal of bands cannot be of great  27 antiquity because of the striking homogeneity  28 of the modern languages."  29  30 And then you later say:  31  32 "...that a proto-Athabaskan language  33 immediately ancestral to the modern language  34 was still spoken as recently as 2,000 - 2,500  35 years ago."  36  37 And it's those statements that I am asking you to  38 explain.  If we can first go to the statement about,  39 "the dispersal of bands cannot be of great  40 antiquity", could you explain whether or not it is  41 controversial that there was a dispersal of bands?  42 A    Well, there is no controversy there was some  43 dispersal because you have the southwest occupation  44 of Navaho and Apache and you have the Pacific Coast  45 Athabaskans there, I mean, so minimally you have  46 that dispersal.  47 Q    And then you say: 11467  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2 "...that a proto-Athabaskan language  3 immediately ancestral to these modern  4 languages."  5  6 I take it that means immediately ancestral to the  7 dispersal?  8 A    Yes.  9 Q  10 "Was still spoken as recently as 2,000 -  11 2,500 years ago."  12  13 A    Yes.  14 Q    Could you explain whether this is a later or an  15 early horizon on the date of the dispersal?  16 A    Well, that's a sophisticated estimate based on the  17 close similarity of the languages throughout this  18 North American spread as well as similar patterns in  19 world languages, and these dates have been published  20 several times.  I am not the one who is publishing  21 these dates or anything.  Especially Dr. Krauss is  22 the one who is basing these dates and he is the  23 person who's worked with the Eyak language by the  24 way.  Krauss is the specialist in this very  25 distantly related Eyak language so his feeling for  26 Eyak first to the rest of Athabaskan and then his  27 knowledge of say Simitic and either European and  28 other languages that he works with are the way he  29 bases these -- these kind of dates.  I could give a  30 more technical comment here too about so-called  31 glotochronology but I don't know that that's -- if  32 you are interested or --  33 Q    Let me first establish with you, are these dates of  34 2,000 to 2,500 years ago, are those on the late  35 horizon or on the early horizon of the estimate of  36 dispersal dates?  37 A    That's a late -- strikingly late date for a large  38 group of -- I mean, if you model the North American  39 distribution and you look at this date for northern  40 North America of the proto-homeland you would say  41 that they stayed unified until fairly late and then  42 the last 2,000 years ago -- the last 2,000 years are  43 very interesting, too, as to, you know, how to  44 figure their sequence of moves into say western  45 Alaska, eastern Canada, the southwest and so forth.  46 So, yeah, that's a rather late date but you need  47 that date because say Navaho is so close to some 11468  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 Alaskan languages.  You need that date to say they  2 were unified very, you know, till relatively  3 recently, say 2,000 years ago.  4 Q    And is the date 2,000 to 2,500 years ago, is that  5 the latest date that, according to those that are  6 calculating these dispersal dates, that the  7 Athabaskan people would have been unified in their  8 proto-homeland or is that the earliest date?  9 A    That's the latest date that's been published and  10 used, and it hasn't been challenged.  11 Q    And you say that this date is the work of Dr.  12 Krauss?  13 A    Yes.  Being the senior figure in our field and the  14 one who's published the dates, he's, you know, the  15 one who's mainly, you know, the one who's used those  16 dates all though other -- I mean, similar dates have  17 been proposed a long time ago, too, in early '20s  18 and whatnot.  19 Q    And do any of those dates conflict with this date of  20 2,000 to 2,500 years ago as a late horizon for the  21 dispersal?  22 A    Not really in significant ways.  Most everybody  23 agrees that -- I mean, everybody agrees that  24 Athabaskan is a very closely related family of  25 languages and there aren't any borderline cases of  26 what -- which language qualifies as an Athabaskan  27 language or something.  They are either Athabaskan  28 or they are not, and they are close to each other,  29 so these -- this is, in terms of linguistic  30 pre-history, not very long ago.  It was a  31 proto-Athabaskan language in fairly unified  32 continuous set of environments somewhere in  33 northwestern North America.  34 Q    And has any of the work which you have done  35 corroborated this date?  36 A    Oh, certainly, in various ways but we are not  37 dealing like carbon fourteen dates with linguistics.  38 What I would like to say is what we look at is  39 relative chronology, and a palaeontologist does too.  40 When he looks at fossils, he's not looking at hard  41 dates but he's dating a fossil of a plant or  42 something in relative sequence.  And relative  43 chronology is very sophisticated and interesting but  44 we don't claim to be real precise.  That's why  45 Krauss will publish something like 2,000 plus or  46 minus 500 years.  An archaeologist through their own  47 proven techniques can be much firmer than that, so 11469  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  THE  THE  THE  THE  MS.  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  MANDELL:  Q  A  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  sometimes linguists and archaeologists have  difficulty communicating with each other when they  have somewhat different frames of reference but then  when you -- well, that's another issue.  Could you explain what work, with reference to the  Athabaskan languages in general terms, you have done  which have been corroborative of this date that  Krauss has provided us?  Well, I could give a real long complex answer but in  any of the languages I have worked with, say the  first time I worked with Wet'suwet'en I was seeing  connections with languages in Alaska immediately,  like Ts'a/Tse" is highbush cranberry in Wet'suwet'en  and in Ahtna it's Tsan/Tsaey, in Tanaina over there  it is E/Tsun/Tsa, highbush cranberry.  We are going to have to have some spellings for  those words.  :  I can spell them but I just wanted you to hear  them.  That's fine.  :  You could see there is some connection here with  the -- this language, this language, and  Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  I can spell them.  Would  you --  If you could do that now for the record.  Okay.  In Babine-Wet'suwet'en, use T-s-'-a and you  know a barred L, a slashed L, use a back slash, do  you have a back slash?  She's got to take down every word you say the way  you say it, so when you use a word like that, we are  going to have this kind of trouble unless you stop  and spell it.  :  Yeah, I am glad to spell it, and I can do it in  the different practical writing systems in the  different languages.  T-s-a use a diagonal, T-s-e  and then use a quotation mark after the E, double  quote, Ts'a Tse" in Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  And then  in Ahtna, Tsan Tsaey is T-s-a-n and then diagonal,  T-s-a-e-y, and then in Tanaina, E Tsun Tsa is E and  then that diagonal, T-s-u-n, diagonal, T-s-a.  But I  mean, I may not -- I could extemporize about  linguistic examples like this in various ways or I  could just use the translations of the examples but  I, in my first work in Hagwilget, I saw connections  with languages in Alaska that are not coincidental  in any way. 11470  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1  MS. MANDELL  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  MS. MANDELL  44  MR. WILLMS:  45  46  47  And so is it your -- do you adopt the dating which  was provided by Krauss to the dispersal date of  2,000 to 2,500 years ago as a late horizon for the  dispersal date?  Yes, yeah, that's --  At page 49, you talk about the -- in general terms  at the top of the page that:  "Subsequent bands of Athabaskans would have  radiated out."  And then you speak of a number of areas and you talk  about into the south into British Columbia and there  you identify the Chilcotin, Carrier and Tahltan.  Could you, by reference to the Suttles map, indicate  for the court where the other Athabaskan speaking  communities are in British Columbia?  Well, the Chilcotin, down in the Chilcotin River,  Williams Lake area, is the southern most living  languages.  The Nicola language near Merritt, B.C.,  which is only -- is extinct now is only documented  in a new vocabulary.  And then Carrier, what we are  going to refer to as Carrier, is in my testimony  exclusive of Babine-Wet'suwet'en because  Babine-Wet'suwet'en is a different language.  And  then Sekani in northern B.C. and Beaver here in the  Fort Saint John area and Tsetsaut is important and  is very important for Athabaskan, very interesting  language that went extinct in the 1920s in the  Portland Canal area around Stuart, B.C., was  documented in the 1880s.  And then Tahltan in  northern B.C.  And you have excluded the area which is here by  Suttles identified as the Babine area?  Babine, yes, on this map, yes.  Is that the Babine-Wet'suwet'en area that you will  be making reference to?  Yes.  But do you agree with the boundary that Suttles has  there?  No.  :  All right.  My lord, I really -- just so that the record is  clear, I really think that that Suttles map should  be marked, otherwise it really doesn't make much  sense.  The witness is referring to named places on 11471  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MS.  THE  THE  THE  MS.  MR.  THE  MS.  THE  MS.  THE  MS.  THE  THE  THE  THE  the map.  MANDELL:  I am glad to mark it as the next exhibit.  COURT:  Yes, I think it probably should.  Is Suttles  S-u-t-t-1-e-s?  WITNESS:  Yes.  REGISTRAR:  Which one is that, the top?  MANDELL:  The bottom.  MACAULAY:  The same should apply to the other map, my lord.  There has been a good deal of evidence by Dr. Kari  concerning the various subdivisions of the  Athabaskan group with reference to that map.  Any objections, Ms. Mandell?  COURT:  MANDELL  COURT:  No.  What is that top  I think that's probably correct,  one called?  It is a map by Dr. Krauss entitled.  Krauss 74.  Made of peoples and languages of Athabaska.  K-r-a-u --  s-s .  All right, yes.  Well, the Krauss 1974 map will be  Exhibit 874, and the Suttles map will be 875.  REGISTRAR:  Very good.  MANDELL  WITNESS  MANDELL  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  (EXHIBIT 874  KRAUSS 1974 MAP MADE OF PEOPLES AND  LANGUAGES OF ATHABASKA)  (EXHIBIT 875 - SUTTLES MAP)  THE COURT:  You will mark them, will you, madam registrar?  Thank you.  THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, thank you.  THE COURT:  You say Nicola or the Merritt area became extinct in  the '20s?  THE WITNESS:  In approximately, yes.  There is only very  fragmentary records about that language.  MS.  MANDELL:  Q  A  I wonder if you could explain what, from a  linguist's point of view, would constitute an  extinct language area?  Well, there is no living speakers of that language  and of course we always want to look at any  vocabularies and what they might tell us about maybe  how different that language was and so forth.  That's why the Tsetsaut, it is so important for say  British Columbia pre-history too because it is an  aberrant Athabaskan language, it could have been 11472  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  THE COURT:  MS. MANDELL  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  THE COURT:  MS. MANDELL  Q  A  Q  A  there a long time.  You wouldn't classify the Eyak as extinct at this  stage?  There is two living speakers.  Excuse me.  Have you got Tsetsaut?  :  T-s-e-t-s-a-u-t.  Thank you.  And they are in Alaska or in British  Columbia?  :  They actually had territory rights straddling the  border around Portland Canal so you could say it is  an extinct international language.  Thank you.  All right.  I'd like to at this time draw to your  attention to the area that -- the linguistic area  that you call Babine-Wet'suwet'en, and to your  report at page 49.  The first point that you here  identify is that:  "For years the lack of linguistic work on the  several Athabaskan languages in Central and  Northern British Columbia made this area the  most conspicuously underdocumented region in  the Athabaskan language family."  When you are here referring to Central and Northern  British Columbia, which by reference to the Suttles  maps area are you referring to?  Well, everything from Chilcotin on up to Tahltan.  In general, in Northern British Columbia, we have  often felt there is, you know, a lot of diversity in  those languages there and it would be nice to have  more work done in them.  That's the Chilcotin?  That's all, yeah, Chilcotin, Carrier,  Babine-Wet'suwet'en, Sekani; of course Tsetsaut  there is no speakers, and Tahltan and Beaver, all  those languages, and Kaska up in your northeastern  corner there, Watson Lake have been some of the  languages where there hasn't been much published  until, in some cases, until recent years; in some  case still not much.  Carrier is the main exception  of course with the Morice work in Fort Saint James.  That's been a well-documented language.  And you mention at page 49 the linguistic work  undertaken by the Carrier Dictionary Committee and  is that Kathryn Bird and Mr. Walker? 11473  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 A    Kathryn Bird, Dick Walker and the group that works  2 in Fort Saint James for quite a few years.  3 Q    What area is the Carrier Dictionary Committee  4 published in?  5 A    That is Carrier.  It has -- it is a good point when  6 they use the term Carrier to apply to the  7 Wet'suwet'en people and so forth.  Some people think  8 that dictionary is their language and that sort of  9 thing, but it is the Stuart Lake, Fort James, Tache,  10 Nakazdli, Stoney, Cheslatta, the areas in the Fraser  11 River drainages that that dictionary represents.  12 Q    Is that on the Suttles map the area which is  13 identified as Carrier?  14 A    Yes, that's Carrier.  And in the Morice material,  15 the Carrier language is from that language, too.  16 Q    You then on page 49 talk about the Central Carrier  17 by Kari on the Bulkley River Carrier of Hagwilget  18 and Moricetown, and that's I take it the language  19 that you are going to be referring to as the  20 Babine-Wet'suwet'en language?  21 A    Yes.  My 1975 paper has never been published but it  22 is part of your documentary records here.  23 Q    And although the boundaries aren't accurate it is  24 roughly the area that Suttles refers to as Babine  25 with some of the Carrier area on its immediate  26 border to the --  27 A    Yes.  It is larger than on the Suttles map but it  28 is —  29 Q    Roughly speaking the area called the Babine area?  30 A    Yeah.  My 1975 paper will come up a couple of times  31 in terms of the classification of the languages.  32 Q    And the work by Hildebrandt, is that the Burns Lake  33 area?  34 A    Yeah.  Hildebrandt is the missionary linguist there  35 in Burns Lake who published with the Babine Band a  36 primmer, first writing lessons in the language.  37 Q    And that again is in the area which is identified by  38 Suttles as Carrier; is that correct?  39 A    Yeah, partially.  Well, they -- yeah, it's got --  40 yeah.  Yes.  41 Q    What's the other part?  42 A    Well, he has the line drawn right through Babine  43 Lake and it terminates the language area too  44 abruptly.  We now know Takla Lake is in the  45 Babine-Wet'suwet'en language area and so forth but  46 these are --  47 Q    Okay.  Story, the work of Story on the Babine Lake 11474  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 Carrier, what area did Story investigate?  2 A    Story worked -- she used -- Story published a  3 monograph called Babine and Carrier Historical  4 Phonology which is the first major publication in  5 the Babine-Wet'suwet'en language and it certainly  6 supports the idea that they are not simply Carrier  7 but that they are a distinct language.  8 Q    And that area is, with reference to Suttles, what  9 area was she studying?  10 A    Well, she worked with a Babine speaker, Babine Band  11 speaker, who was residing in Burns Lake but is from  12 Babine Lake.  13 Q    All right.  And Cook on the Southern Carrier, what  14 area was Cook studying?  15 A    That's a dialect survey down around and Anaham Lake  16 area in that part of Southern Carrier.  17 Q    All right.  And Hargus forthcoming on the Sekani?  18 A    Well, Hargus is two publications -- oh, this has  19 changed since then but her forthcoming, her  20 dissertation and her dictionary are on the Sekani  21 language at various places, McLeod Lake, and Fort  22 Ware, especially from that -- those two areas.  23 Q    Are you familiar with all of the linguistic work  24 which is set out in paragraph 2 on page 49 as we  25 have just gone through it?  26 A    Yes.  27 Q    And are there any other linguistic works of note  28 pertaining to the area that you are describing has  29 been studied in paragraph 2 of page 49?  30 A    Oh, this isn't a complete list or bibliography of  31 sources on British Columbia Athabaskan languages.  32 No, these -- there is some new work and so forth  33 but —  34 MS. MANDELL:  On the basis of the studies that have been done  35 and which you have listed here, you indicate that  36 there is many gaps in the linguistic coverage which  37 still thwart a definitive classification of B.C.  38 Athabaskan at this time.  How reliable in your  39 opinion then is your opinion which you are providing  40 to us in this report which you will be giving in  41 evidence today in terms of what you are able to say  42 about the Athabaskan language that you studied?  43 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, I object to that.  Perhaps my friend could  44 characterize that question a little differently but  45 I don't think it's for the witness to say how.  We  46 all accept that he thinks it is very reliable and I  47 don't think that any evidence needs to be given on 11475  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 that.  2 MS. MANDELL:  Well, I really just want to get out the fact that  3 although, you know, there are gaps as the witness  4 has identified, can we place the same kind of  5 reliability on what he --  6 THE COURT:  Well, I think you should ask the witness about that.  7 MS. MANDELL:  8 Q    All right.  Are the gaps in the linguistic coverage  9 of the Central and Northern British Columbia  10 Athabaskan languages, are they in your opinion too  11 extensive that an opinion can be formed about the  12 Babine-Wet'suwet'en language?  13 A    Well, this report was written now three years ago  14 and the records have changed considerably with --  15 and my familiarity with the other languages has  16 changed and developed just since I wrote the report,  17 so what I could address is the Babine-Wet'suwet'en  18 linguistic record that I have participated in and  19 all that information in detail, and then I am  20 familiar from written sources with the Carrier, a  21 Central Carrier in public sources and what bearing  22 that might have in terms of offsetting  23 Babine-Wet'suwet'en from Carrier.  And then I am  24 familiar with the Sekani data through my colleague  25 Hargus and her forthcoming dictionary and I have  26 seen of that, and it does help to round out the  27 notion of Babine-Wet'suwet'en because it does have a  28 language with Sekani on a border and Carrier on a  29 border, so I am familiar with that.  In terms of  30 Tahltan, I am not too familiar but I do know a  31 little bit about it but that's a very  32 underdocumented language now and remains that way.  33 Q    I'd like to draw your attention to your conclusions  34 and then we will go back on the degree of proof.  If  35 you could first begin at page 53 of the report.  36 You, on the second to the last paragraph, you refer  37 to the appendices which I will refer you to in more  38 detail later but you say:  39  40 "I appendices C - F of this report we summarize  41 the evidence for the distinct language status  42 for the Athabaskans of the Bulkley and Babine  43 drainages."  44  45 And my first question to you then is that whether it  46 is your opinion that the Athabaskans of the Bulkley  47 and Babine drainages are a distinct language 11476  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 Athabaskan grouping?  2 A    Yes, yes.  3 Q    And then you address the question of territory of  4 this language and if I could draw to your attention  5 first in this report at page 55.  You talk about  6 three peoples -- the drainage systems that the  7 language -- the drainages systems that the language  8 encompass and you there list four different river  9 groupings, although I take it that the Babine Lake  10 group is really the same, the second and the  11 third —  12 A    Yeah, they are two names for the same people.  13 Q    You have the Wet'suwet'en people of the Bulkley  14 River group as one of the drainage systems that the  15 peoples occupy for this language group, you have the  16 Babine Lake group which have two different names  17 which you have identified, and then you talk about  18 the Takla Lake group as also identified within this  19 peoples, and since your work in 1985 and '6 when  20 this report was prepared, have you formed any  21 opinion as to which other drainage system and the  22 peoples around it would also occupy this linguistic  23 group?  24 A    Yes.  This is not -- this is not as definitive or as  25 accurate as in our paper, the January 1989 paper,  26 that's been submitted because --  27 Q    Which is the group that you would also add to this?  28 A    Francois Lake, bands on the south side of Francois  29 Lake.  30 Q    And if I could turn your attention to tab 5 at page  31 2, and I am asking you to draw your attention to the  32 second paragraph from the bottom of the page and I  33 am beginning the seventh line down from the top  34 with:  35  36 "We estimate that the Babine-Wet'suwet'en  37 language area is approximately 10,000 square  38 miles in area.  It encompasses in the  39 Skeena drainage 1) the Bulkley River, Babine  40 Lake and upper Babine River;in the Fraser  41 drainage, 2) most of Francois Lake and Ootsa  42 Lake and upland areas to the west; also in the  43 Fraser drainage, 3) the west side of Takla  44 Lake north of the narrows as well as the lower  45 portion of the Driftwood River drainage at the  46 head of Takla Lake.  Externally, the Babine-  47 Wet'suwet'en area meets or overlaps the 11477  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 following native language areas:  1) Sekani,  2 an Athabaskan language, meets  3 Babine-Wet'suwet'en at Driftwood River and the  4 east side of Takla Lake; 2) Carrier, also an  5 Athabaskan language, borders  6 Babine-Wet'suwet'en to the east and southeast  7 between the lower end of Takla Lake and Eutsuk  8 Lake; 3) Haisla, a Wakashan language, is west  9 of the coast mountains west of Morice Lake and  10 Tahtsa Lake; 4) the Kitselas dialect of Coast  11 Tsimshian borders Babine-Wet'suwet'en west of  12 Telkwa Pass; 5) Gitksan, a Tsimshianic  13 language, borders Babine-Wet'suwet'en to the  14 west between upper Copper River in the south  15 and upper Driftwood River in the north."  16  17 Is that your opinion as to the territory that this  18 distinct language inhabits?  19 A    Yes.  20 Q    Now, I'd like to first draw out the proof that you  21 evidence in your report as to the fact that it is a  22 distinct language and not simply a Carrier  23 conglomerate as was previously discussed, and if you  24 could take us back to page 50.  I just wanted to  25 first identify that prior to your work, was it an  26 assumption in the academic literature on the native  27 peoples of British Columbia that there is a single  28 language group of Athabaskan affiliation known as  29 Carrier?  30 A    Yes.  31 Q    And that occupied a large portion of the province of  32 British Columbia?  33 A    Well, yes.  There are maps, say DIA maps.  There is  34 a whole series of maps that have ethnic and language  35 classifications for Athabaskan which have a larger  36 Carrier language area, and there is a British  37 Columbia provincial museum map from the 1950s that  38 also presents that, that the -- there was a larger  39 monolithic Carrier language which, in Babine and  40 Wet'suwet'en, were just treated as dialect of  41 Carrier in this literature.  42 Q    On page 50, you mention the work of Morice, the  43 Oblate priest who resided at Stuart Lake, and you  44 set out quite extensively in your report his  45 conclusions that the Babine-Wet'suwet'en should be  46 afforded a distinct individuality of language as  47 distinct from the Carrier.  And if I could draw your 11478  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 attention first to page 51 and here you're quoting  2 from Morice at the bottom of the page.  He says:  3  4 "Upon that ground..."  5  6 And I am reading from the eighth line up.  7  8 "...I have even sometimes asked myself whether  9 distinct individuality as a tribe should not  10 be granted to the Babines whose linguistic or  11 even psychological peculiarities are so  12 glaring that they cannot escape detection even  13 by the most careless observer.  Much of their  14 dialect would indeed be 'greek' to an thau'ten  15 (Central Carrier) visitor."  16  17 Here when Morice is speaking about the Babines, do  18 you know who he is talking about?  19 A    Yes.  He uses Babine for the lake Babine people and  20 what he calls the river Babine people which are  21 Bulkley River people and Wet'suwet'en, Hagwilget and  22 Moricetown villages.  23 Q    And do you adopt and agree with the statement he  24 made here that the dialect of the Babine would be  25 greek to a Central Carrier visitor?  26 A    Yes.  We found out that they aren't that readily  27 intelligible, that they would be considered rather  28 unintelligible without prior language learning, so I  29 could go on more on this question of language  30 intelligibility but I would like to point out that  31 Morice's judgments here are in 1892, very early,  32 that he had different positions in his career about  33 whether the Babines were a dialect or a separate  34 language.  35 Q    I am going to return to that in a minute but I would  36 ask you to first turn to page 52 just to complete  37 the conclusions he drew as you have record them, and  38 I am referring to the indented paragraph in the  39 middle of the page.  40  41 "As to Babine, its grammatical, terminological  42 and morphological peculiarities are perhaps  43 enough to make it a really distinct Dene  44 dialect -- more so, at any rate, than is the  45 Lower from Higher Carrier.  What at first  46 strikes in its make-up is the prevalence of  47 double consonants..." 11479  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2 A   Affricates.  3 Q  4 "...(affricates) rarely seen in the same places  5 in the language to which this work is  6 consecrated."  7  8 And he talks about Carrier proper.  Do you adopt the  9 distinctions that he's made between the Higher and  10 the Lower Carrier from the Babine people here as he  11 describes the language differences?  12 A    Yes.  His sense of it being quite different is now  13 confirmed by our more recent work.  14 Q    And if I could ask you to help the court appreciate  15 Morice, could you identify -- you mentioned earlier  16 that his view as to whether or not it ought to be a  17 distinct language vacillated in his life.  Could you  18 first explain to the court the significance of  19 Morice residing at Stuart Lake and making his  20 observations from that location, and I am back here  21 referring to page 50?  22 A    Well, Morice was a very talented linguist and his  23 material from Stuart Lake and his voluminous  24 publications are really important and quite accurate  25 in terms of phonetic transcription and translation  26 but it is that language over there near where he  27 lived and when you study Morice's publications he  28 worked with five different British Columbia  29 Athabaskan languages and you can rank them in terms  30 of intensity or depth of coverage in his various  31 publications.  32 Q    And what was the depth of coverage of the  33 Babine-Wet'suwet'en language?  34 A    The least of the five.  35 Q    Could you estimate or do you know how many items of  36 the Bulkley and Babine area he referred to in his  37 works?  38 A    Well, I have tried -- I studied all of Morice's  39 published works and we, in our library in Fairbanks,  40 do try to acquire manuscripts of that vocabularies  41 of unpublished works too.  And Morice, in what he  42 refers to as Babine, published no more than 150  43 vocabulary items or grammatical items on the  44 language.  45 Now, I could give you the relative scale but he's  46 published more on Sekani than that; he published  47 more on Tahltan than that; he published, and had 11480  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 documented Chilcotin more on that, of course he  2 lived down in Williams Lake when he did the  3 Chilcotin; and he published a vast amount of Central  4 Carrier, but the documentary record on what he calls  5 Babine linguistic record is rather small.  I do not  6 mean to slight his judgments in his history of  7 northern interior British Columbia.  He has some  8 very interesting and sophisticated analyses of  9 Babine history and historic contact and so forth but  10 he just didn't work on the language very much.  11 Q    All right.  At page 52 and 53 of your report you at  12 the bottom of the page mention that the  13 anthropologists, and you name them, didn't directly  14 address the question of language versus dialect and  15 that the issues were taken up by yourself and Story,  16 who at the top of page 53 make the case for the  17 linguistic distinctiveness of the Babine  18 River-Babine Lake peoples.  If I could stop here and  19 ask you, when you're referring to this statement,  20 are you referring to the work you have already  21 described to us that Story did when she interviewed  22 one informant?  I am speaking at the top of page 53.  23 A    Right.  My 1975 paper and then Story's monograph  24 started, especially in her published monograph, is  25 shown that Babine-Wet'suwet'en is certainly not  26 Carrier and is very distinct and you have to look at  27 the implications of that, the pre-historic  28 implications of that.  29 Q    All right.  And you go on to say at page 53 that  30 this classification, that is the distinctiveness of  31 the Babine River-Babine Lake peoples, has been  32 recognized in the Subarctic volume of The Handbook  33 Of North American Indians, in articles by Tobey,  34 Krauss and Golla.  Now, if I could, before reading  35 the insert from the North American Indian Handbook,  36 if I could have you advise the court what in your  37 view is the significance of there being this  38 recognition in The Handbook of North American  39 Indians?  40 A    Well, that's the definitive sort of series of  41 encyclopedic volumes coming out now in 2 0 volumes  42 for the late twentieth century on literature in  43 North American Indians published by the Smithsonian,  44 and in terms of the chronology of this, this  45 classification was accepted based on my 1975 paper  46 and prior to Story's 1984 monograph.  47 MS. MANDELL:  And the part of the handbook which is quoted in 11481  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  THE  COURT:  8  MS.  MANDELL  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  THE  COURT:  23  24  THE  WITNESS  25  26  27  THE  COURT:  28  29  THE  WITNESS  30  31  32  THE  COURT:  33  34  THE  WITNESS  35  MS.  MANDELL  36  THE  COURT:  37  38  39  THE  WITNESS  40  41  42  43  THE  COURT:  44  45  THE  WITNESS  46  THE  COURT:  47  THE  WITNESS  your report at page 53 says:  "A sharp linguistic boundary, correlated with  the cultural and ecological differences,  separates the Babine River..."  I am sorry:  "Bulkley River...and Babine Lake dialects from  the rest, and it is probably best to return to  earlier usage and consider these northwest  dialects (of Carrier) a single language."  Do you adopt the description of the linguistic  boundary here described in that quote?  It is a sharp linguistic boundary that deserves  classifications language status, yes.  You adopt that as your own?  Yes.  Well, the single language would be Athabaskan, would  it?  :  Yes.  They are still related to Athabaskan.  It's  just that it's not a dialect of Carrier, but it is a  different language.  Am I right in saying when it refers there to a  single language, is it referring to Athabaskan?  :  Yes, a single Athabaskan language.  This is an  article called The Northern Athabaskan Languages,  your lordship.  And the difference is that it is an Athabaskan  language and not a Carrier dialect?  :  Yes.  :  Now --  I am sorry, one other thing.  What is -- what are  the two sides of the sharp linguistic boundary?  Carrier and Babine-Wet'suwet'en?  :  Yes, that's what they are referring to to try to  clarify the Carrier -- broader Carrier question  of -- yes.  They are offsetting what they use the  term here as Babine to -- with Carrier.  The sharp linguistic boundaries between  Babine-Wet'suwet'en and Carrier?  :  And Carrier.  Thank you.  :  And they appear to be mutually unintelligible 11482  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 which is one of the first tests of language versus  2 dialect; can people understand each other readily  3 when they talk to each other.  4 MS. MANDELL:  And in the next paragraph when you speak about  5 Suttles, the latest map bestows language status for  6 the Babine people.  You are here referring to the  7 map which we have marked Exhibit --  8 THE REGISTRAR:  875.  9 MS. MANDELL:  10 Q    Thank you, 875; is that correct?  11 A    Yes.  12 Q    And although you have already indicated that you  13 don't agree with Suttles' boundary of the Babine  14 versus the Carrier horizon?  15 A    That's correct.  16 Q    Now, you say:  17  18 "In appendices C - F of this report, we  19 summarize the evidence for the distinct  20 language status for the Athabaskans of the  21 Bulkley and Babine drainages."  22  23 I'd first like to ask you before turning to those  24 appendices whether the evidence in support of the  25 distinct language status was further reviewed by you  26 in your 1988 paper?  27 A    Yes.  Our latest paper is substantial advancement  28 over appendices C to F as far as the dialectology,  29 the details of the sub-dialects within  30 Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  We now see four dialects of  31 Babine-Wet'suwet'en, so it's based on a much larger  32 data set and so I can make much better than when I  33 wrote these appendices, I could say more now about  34 how Babine-Wet'suwet'en is offset from Carrier and  35 other languages.  We just have a lot more facts of  36 linguistic nature to contribute to that.  37 Q    All right.  If I could turn you to tab 5, page 20 to  38 23, beginning at the bottom of page 23.2,  39 Proto-Babine Carrier Reconsidered.  Does the summary  40 which is contained at the bottom of page 20, all of  41 page 21, 22, and then to the top of page 23, does  42 that reflect your most recent thinking regarding the  43 available evidence for the distinct language status  44 for the Athabaskans of the Bulkley and Babine  45 drainage?  46 A    Yes.  Referring to table 6 on page 21 and 22, this  47 is one way of summarizing similarities and 11483  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  THE  MS.  WITNESS  MANDELL  Q  A  differences between Babine-Wet'suwet'en and Carrier.  MS. MANDELL:  And before explaining to us in —  THE COURT:  I am sorry, I missed something here.  Tab 5 are the  appendices to tab 2 to the report.  MS. MANDELL:  No.  The appendices, my lord, are found at tabs 3  and 4, and tab 5 is the article.  I hope you are  doing it as we are.  This is the --  THE COURT:  I see, all right.  MS. MANDELL:  This is the draft article that was identified  earlier as the 1988 work.  And there is a difference between what we have here  on pages 20 to 23 of tab 5 compared with what's in  your appendices?  :  Well, it is much more detail.  Although I did want to ask you whether or not the  material in your appendices, is that all included in  the work that is now contained in tab 5?  Yeah -- yes.  You could say it is subsumed in here  in various ways in terms of statements of rules.  This is more formalized here and it is a check list.  It is just a way to try to keep track of what  structurally constitutes the difference in say  Carrier versus Babine-Wet'suwet'en on a grammatical  level and this is not a vocabulary level.  I would  like to make a distinction.  We are not talking  about vocabulary differences because those are vast  and interesting but they do have different  vocabulary inventories.  This is a grammatical check  list.  Q    All right.  I'd like to then use the check list that  you have provided at page 20 to 23 of the  unpublished paper found at tab 5, and by reference  to the categories that you have identified here,  could you, using language that hopefully we'll be  able to understand, explain to the court the  differences recorded by you between the  Babine-Wet'suwet'en and the Carrier language, and  perhaps if you could start by first explaining what  the headings are that you have identified under  heading A to F?  A    Yes.  The subdivisions kind of present some of the  logical possibilities when you compare neighbouring  languages.  The subdivision A are common retentions  of Carrier and Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  That could be  greatly expanded but it would be rather trivial.  A  common retentions of regional interest is how I 11484  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  PA  would qualify that part.  THE COURT:  What does PA mean?  THE WITNESS:  Proto-Athabaskan.  Thank you, your Lord,  meaning this term proto-Athabaskan.  Subsection B is Carrier B-W, I will use -- say  B-W, is that okay, for Babine-Wet'suwet'en, common  innovations.  That means things -- that's  significant, too, that seem to be local to central  British Columbia.  Subsection C is Carrier  retentions from proto-Athabaskan not found in B-W.  Subsection D is the logical opposite of that.  Carrier innovations not found in B-W.  Subsection E  is B-W retentions not found in Carrier.  And  subsection F is B-W innovations not found in  Carrier.  So this is a check list of these  grammatical differences and to make it more  straightforward in terms of what you hear when you  hear speakers of the languages like in section --  subsection F, 6B is a rule we just abbreviate here  as L-mutation, but that's when you get two words  like Central Carrier Dena is man, is  Babine-Wet'suwet'en Dena, and there is a vowel  shift.  THE COURT:  Can I have the spelling for that?  THE WITNESS:  Yes, I will.  THE COURT:  I am sorry, we have to have it now.  THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Dena Central Carrier, D-e-n-a is  Babine-Wet'suwet'en D-e-n-i and the "na" has shifted  to "ni".  There is a vowel shift of rather profound  nature of high statistical frequency that comes up  in, you know, many words which could be given a more  technical description in terms of the conditioning  factors, but that's what the L-mutation --  L-mutation becomes a real marker of whether you are  a Babine-Wet'suwet'en speaker or a Central Carrier  speaker just at first blush, and all  Babine-Wet'suwet'en speakers have the rule called  L-mutation, and if I don't -- is it burdensome for  me to use linguistic examples?  I am completely lost and I am sure madam reporter is  also lost.  Are you, madam reporter?  REPORTER:  Yes, my lord.  COURT:  When you use a word and then go on and want to come  back and spell it, you have lost us.  THE WITNESS:  But would you like me to do that?  I can —  THE COURT:  We have to have the spelling when you use the word  otherwise we don't know what you are talking about.  THE COURT  THE  THE 11485  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 THE WITNESS:  Central Carrier Dzan Murky, D-z-a-n, murky is  2 Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  3 THE COURT:  We don't know how to spell murky.  4 THE WITNESS:  M-u-r-k-y, murky, silty cloudy water —  5 THE COURT:  All right.  6 THE WITNESS:  — is Babine-Wet'suwet'en Dzen, D-z-e-n, so Dzan  7 is shifted to Dzen.  And Central Carrier -- let's  8 see, well, those are two examples of an "a" shifting  9 to an "e" and an "a" shifting to an "ay".  It's a  10 regular process that occurs in the syllables that  11 becomes one of the things you look for when you do a  12 dialect survey like we were doing in 1988 and we try  13 to formalize what you are finding there.  That's a  14 significant phonological difference that all  15 Babine-Wet'suwet'en speakers have been found to have  16 including at Takla Lake and Francois Lake which were  17 the new areas of our survey that we never worked in  18 before.  19 MS. MANDELL:  Perhaps this is a good time.  20 THE COURT:  I think we should adjourn for lunch now.  But I  21 think if you don't mind, Ms. Mandell, madam reporter  22 is going to need some help on that last little piece  23 of area.  I am sure she will get whatever kind of  24 assistance she will regard.  25 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until two.  26  27 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:30 p.m.)  28  29 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  30 a true and accurate transcript of the  31 proceedings herein, transcribed to the  32 best of my skill and ability.  33  34  35  36  37  38 TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  39 United Reporting Service Ltd.  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 11486  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  THE COURT:  MS. MANDELL  THE COURT:  MS. MANDELL  Q  A  Q  A  A  A  Ms. Mandell.  :  I'm at tab 5.  I am still questioning with respect  to table 6 found at page 21.  Thank you.  Dr. Kari, the subheading A you've there identified  Carrier and Babine-Wet'suwet'en common retentions  from proto-Athabaskan.  Could you advise the court  whether or not the Carrier and Babine-Wet'suwet'en  have much or many common retentions compared with  other Athabaskan languages?  This is ordinary and normal.  There is nothing in A  that is unique to those two languages in the  language family.  If you talk about the broader  language family this is normal.  When you say that it's normal --  This list could be extended a great deal beyond.  It  is of some regional interest say that the negative  system, the full negative paradigms in Carrier and  Babine-Wet'suwet'en are there in central British  Columbia and in no other Canadian Athabaskan  language.  That starts to be a little more  significant.  But then there are Alaskan Athabaskan  languages with those same structures too.  Just with respect to tab A, there you would say that  the number and the type of common retentions between  the Carrier and Babine-Wet'suwet'en are comparable  and not significant if you were comparing other  Athabaskan languages; is that correct?  Yes, there is nothing too striking historically  about that.  Now, at tab B you list a number of Carrier  Babine-Wet'suwet'en common innovations.  Could you  advise what you as a linguist learn by looking at  the Carrier Babine-Wet'suwet'en common innovations  as they are listed there at table 6?  Well, these become more interesting in terms of when  these languages might have developed these changes.  And one generalization here is that they've been  neighbours for a long time.  They have had some  shared innovations of some interest having been  neighbours a long time.  And in some cases some of  these changes have happened nowhere else in the 40  languages like the first one listed there the i  vowel, letter i developing out of what we call a gh 11487  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 progressive prefix.  So they both do that, that one  2 development, and no other Athabaskan languages do.  3 Q    All right.  And dealing with the common innovations,  4 you say that they've been neighbours.  Your judgment  5 of the list is to conclude that they've been  6 neighbours for a long time.  Is there any indication  7 from that list whether or not as neighbours they've  8 enjoyed long-term autonomy or whether or not the  9 relationship has been more closely related to the  10 development of one language or through one language?  11 A    Well, you could hypothesize that at some point in  12 time they were one language and they've moved apart  13 and separated as two languages.  This is the  14 department you would want to look at of shared  15 innovations for that as opposed to the others that  16 offset it such as independent innovations.  So you  17 would look at a trade-off in these categories of  18 changes.  I think I could perhaps relate that better  19 as you move through the chart a little more.  The  2 0 argument for independent development in  21 Babine-Wet'suwet'en and Carrier independent  22 relationship for a long time does seem to accumulate  23 through the development of a linguistic checklist  24 through research.  25 Q    All right.  26 A   And also I must say in a sort of man-in-the-street  27 level in terms of communication between Carrier and  28 Babine-Wet'suwet'en we are trying to give structural  29 differences in the languages which would account for  30 why they are hard to understand each other, you  31 know, when they speak.  32 Q    I want to understand your answer with respect to the  33 B category.  You say that there is a hypothesis that  34 could be tested whether or not they were at one  35 point one language that split or whether or not they  36 enjoyed long-term autonomy each from each other.  37 Based upon the list of common innovations found at  38 tab B, do you conclude one way or another with  39 respect to that hypothesis?  40 A    Not just with that amount of information, no.  41 Q    All right.  42 A    No.  43 Q    Now, if you look at tab C through to tab F, these  44 are all retentions or innovations which are  45 different of the two languages.  First of all, I  46 wonder if you could advise whether or not there is  47 anything significantly significant about either the 11488  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  THE  THE  THE  MS.  number or the type of retentions and innovations  which you found which are different between the  Carrier and the Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  A    Well, yes, they are fairly numerous in number.  In  other words, a structural basis to people having  difficulty understanding each other without prior  language learning.  I would like to make sure that  there is such a thing as multilingualism between  Carrier and Babine-Wet'suwet'en and then they speak  to each other by knowing two languages.  But without  some kind of language learning experience that would  make someone multilingual, this type of a checklist  would say that, you know, there is a language  boundary there, a structural basis to the language  boundary.  And also this is typical of what you find  in Alaska, too.  This kind of thing is a normal way  you could contrast two Alaskan Athabaskans who are  neighbours.  I'm sorry, I'm not sure I am following you.  When  you are saying that there is a language barrier,  they do not understand each other or that they can  understand each other but they speak a different  language?  :  Well, to account for communication across the  boundary people are bilingual or multilingual and  are not -- it seems to be -- yes.  And in terms of  Athabaskan it is a mosaic of language relationships.  Some two Athabaskan languages that are neighbours  are more distinct than these two, some are more  intimate than these two.  I could make specific  examples in a broader north American perspective on  that.  This is an average depth Athabaskan language  boundary for northern Athabaskan.  So without interaction with each other they wouldn't  understand?  :  Yes, without language learning experience through  inter-marriage, for example.  Yes.  Based upon the retentions and innovations which are  different between the Babine-Wet'suwet'en and the  Carrier, are there any conclusions to be drawn by  you with respect to that hypothesis that you earlier  set up, that is whether they were at one time one  language that fanned out or whether they have  operated with long-term autonomy?  A    Well, a couple of the retentions that I consider  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  MANDELL  Q 11489  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  A  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  MS.  MANDELL:  Q  real conservative traits in Babine-Wet'suwet'en that  are quite striking are under section E,  Babine-Wet'suwet'en retentions not found in Carrier.  And here you want to look at the geographical  scatter of other languages that have those  retentions and that's real interesting.  That  category is very interesting.  In terms of that E,  number 1 there is what we call a morphophonemic rule  when you combine two prefixes together and get a  certain result that is realized as a K and a G first  person pronoun in Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  Well,  nowhere else in Canada do you get -- in Canadian  Athabaskan do you get a K and a G first person  pronoun in that same environment.  But you do in  this zone in Alaska.  You do like in these languages  in Alaska, and then you do in Babine-Wet'suwet'en,  but not Carrier.  And then you do in these extinct  languages on the Columbia River in the State of  Washington and Oregon.  That's quite striking in  terms of a continental perspective.  Another one  that's in category E that then gives a corollary  support for a similar geographic scatter is what we  call the K and Q series.  Now, that is front and  back velar.  That is number 4 on the list under E?  Yes, that's E4.  Babine-Wet'suwet'en is the only  Canadian Athabaskan language that has a K and Q  series.  The geographical scatter on that is in  Alaska.  Around the perimeter of Alaska it is Ahtna,  Tanaina, Ingalik, Holikachuk, Koyukon.  I could help  you with the spelling or you could get them off the  map.  You'll have to spell them for us, please.  :  Ahtna, A-H-T-N-A.  Tanaina, T-A-N-A-I-N-A.  Ingalik, I-N-G-A-L-I-K.  Holikachuk,  H-O-L-I-K-A-C-H-U-K.  Koyukon, K-O-Y-U-K-O-N.  Those  are the Alaskan languages with K/Q contrast.  No  other Canadian languages but Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  And then you get several California and Oregon  languages with a K and Q contrast including Hupa,  H-U-P-A, and Wailaki, W-A-I-L-A-K-I.  My question earlier, and I don't know if you've  adequately in the sense that I understand how you've  addressed it, was whether or not in looking through  the retentions and the innovations between the  Babine-Wet'suwet'en and the Carrier, are there any 11490  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 indications or evidence that you find which support  2 or allow you to form a conclusion whether or not the  3 Babine-Wet'suwet'en are -- have a long term autonomy  4 in terms of their language or whether they may have  5 been part of the Carrier at one time and broke away.  6 A    Well, I think a model that says they were part of  7 the Carrier, the Carrier were part of them and broke  8 away in either direction would be rather -- would  9 require a lot of breakmanship to demonstrate.  You  10 would have to create rules, you know, that would be  11 the artifact of the hypothesis or something.  This  12 is normal for Athabaskan languages to differ like  13 they differ and to have intelligibility barriers  14 within and to have some shared changes and some  15 independent retentions and independent innovations.  16 So the boundary between Babine-Wet'suwet'en in B.C.  17 is -- I would place it about like Ahtna, Tanaina.  18 We have just mentioned those two names in Alaska.  19 And like Ingalik, Holikachuk, all four of which I  20 have personal experience with in terms of  21 conversational use and inter-marriage and use across  22 the language boundary.  We have talked about the  23 vowel shift just before the break which could be  24 equivalent to old English becoming middle English  25 because of a vowel shift in the history of English.  26 That's what we are talking about happened with  27 Babine-Wet'suwet'en versus Carrier there.  Carrier  28 has a more conservative vowel system than  29 Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  Babine-Wet'suwet'en has an  30 innovative vowel system and there has been vowel  31 shift.  These are typical things that happen with  32 neighbouring Athabaskan languages.  In many cases we  33 do have to talk about long-term residents as  34 neighbours and cross-fertilization of vocabulary and  35 shared innovations and independent innovations.  36 Interesting things from a technical point of view.  37 Q    You compared the relationship between the Carrier  38 and the Babine-Wet'suwet'en to some of the Alaskan  39 languages --  40 A    Yes.  41 Q    -- that you identified on the Krauss map which is  42 found at Exhibit 874.  For those comparisons of the  43 Alaska languages, are all of those four languages  44 which you identified separately classified as an  45 Athabaskan language?  46 A    Yes, they are all four Athabaskan languages.  47 Q    And could you then explain how the Carrier and 11491  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 Babine-Wet'suwet'en relationship compares to the  2 four Athabaskan Alaskan languages that you've  3 pointed out on the map?  4 A    Well, I did just make a comparison.  These are  5 actually two pairs of languages that are neighbours  6 with vowel shifts.  Actually, these guys both have a  7 common vowel shift here and these guys have the  8 conservative vowel system.  So they are kind of  9 analogous in the vowel shift and non-vowel shift  10 neighbouring pattern.  So that's why I make the  11 comparison with those four languages.  If I were  12 doing a chart like table 6 for those two languages  13 as neighbours, you know, I could get into various  14 things that would account for them being mutually  15 unintelligible languages and it would look something  16 like table 6 defined for them.  The things that are  17 more significant I think you want to bring up next  18 or later about the Pacific Coast Athabaskan --  19 Q    I will bring that up later.  20 A    -- that starts becoming more significant in terms of  21 British Columbia time depth.  But, in general,  22 Babine-Wet'suwet'en people should rank as one of the  23 most conservative Canadian Athabaskan languages in  24 phonology and grammar.  25 Q    And what is the significance of you saying that they  26 are a conservative language?  27 A    Well, they've been there a long time and preserved  28 features of proto-Athabaskan that other Canadian  29 Athabaskans do not preserve in the same degree.  I  30 have mentioned a few here in part E that, you know,  31 I could be more specific and use words that the  32 recorder would have to write.  But the section E on  33 this chart is real interesting for Canada and then  34 looking at the Pacific Coast Athabaskan migration.  35 Q    I wonder if you could take us through the features  36 while we are here on the chart of the  37 Babine-Wet'suwet'en language which would make it, if  38 it is, distinct among the Athabaskan languages in  39 Canada.  4 0 A    Well, you want me to enumerate?  41 Q    Yes.  42 A    Well, it's the only Canadian Athabaskan language  43 with a K/Q contrast.  It is the only Canadian  44 Athabaskan language with a K' realization of the  45 indefinite prefix.  46 Q    And is that set out at number 3 of the list?  47 A    E. 11492  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  MS.  MANDELL  25  THE  COURT:  26  27  28  THE  WITNESS  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  THE  COURT:  37  MS.  MANDELL  38  THE  COURT:  39  MS.  MANDELL  40  THE  COURT:  41  MS.  MANDELL  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  E3?  Yes.  Yes.  I believe E5 which could be restated as preservation  of stem-final affricates I believe is the only  Canadian Athabaskan language with that feature.  And  not to dismiss Carrier as an impoverished language  by any means.  The shared negative system, the  obviously conservative proto-Athabaskan negative  system, is in Carrier and BW and the neighbours.  But those are the only two Canadian languages with  the conservative negative paradigms.  This doubles  the number of paradigmatic forms, by the way.  When  you go through a verb like say the forms of the verb  "to see", it doubles the paradigmatic forms so that  you will get 44 forms for "he looks at it" in a  language with a negative system, but only 24 in a  language without a negative system.  So that's  flashy both for Carrier and BW in the Canadian  perspective that they have the conservative negative  system.  But then Carrier -- and this is the way  languages are similar and different, too.  That's a  nice interesting retention in Carrier and BW.  :  If you could turn to page 55 of your report.  Before you leave that, Doctor, what are the numbers  on B small c, 6c.  For example, there is number 59,  below it 56 and 84?  What are those numbers?  :  Oh, those are citations to rules and Story, G.  Story 1984.  Some of this is also we want to credit  our colleague G. Story in her monograph.  These are  published rules in G. Story 1984.  Those are the  rule numbers in those cases.  We want to shape this  up in a later draft of the paper.  Some of these are  independent research which is subsequent to Story  and here we cited Story.  Where are we going, Ms. Mandell?  :  We are going to page 55.  Tab 2?  :  This is tab 2.  Yes.  At the bottom of the page and to the top of page 56  in that paragraph you identified some features of  the Babine-Wet'suwet'en language.  Are these the  same features that you described with reference to  page 22 of your draft report, tab E, which make the  Babine-Wet'suwet'en distinctive in the Canadian 11493  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 realm as an Athabaskan language?  2 A    Which paragraph in 56?  3 Q    This is the last paragraph on 55 as it carries  4 forward into the first paragraph of 56?  5 A    Right.  That's essentially the same point -- some of  6 the same points that Babine-Wet'suwet'en is a  7 conservative Canadian Athabaskan language for those  8 particular reasons.  9 Q    And these features are distinctive of the  10 Babine-Wet'suwet'en in the Canadian realm of the  11 Athabaskan language?  12 A    In the Canadian realm, yes.  13 Q    And you mentioned earlier, although we didn't fully  14 develop the point, that these same features are  15 found among selective of the other Athabaskan  16 languages.  And if you could repeat where these  17 features also are found around the Athabaskan  18 languages?  19 A    Well, the front and back velar languages are around  20 the perimeter of western and southern Alaska only.  21 In Babine-Wet'suwet'en and a couple of languages in  22 California, one of which is extinct and one of which  23 has ten speakers, I named them earlier.  Even more  24 aberrant and more striking than that is this first  25 person pronoun cluster.  I would like to say two  26 words just to illustrate this in Babine-Wet'suwet'en  27 Yekldek, I am speaking, and Nigelget, I am afraid.  28 Okay.  29 Q    If you could spell those words, please.  30 A    I will spell them.  Yekldek, Y-E-K, underlined  31 L-D-E-K, and Nigelget, N-I-G-E-L-G-E-T.  The  32 clusters of kl and gel are only found elsewhere  33 other than Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  I didn't name these  34 languages off before, but they are found in Upper  35 Tanana, Tananacross, Tanana, Koyukon, Holikachuk and  36 Ingalik.  37 THE COURT:  I don't think we can ask the reporter to get the  38 spellings from the maps.  39 THE WITNESS:  Upper Tanana, T-A-N-A-N-A, Tanacross,  40 T-A-N-A-C-R-O-S-S, Tanana, same as Upper Tanana,  41 Koyukon, K-O-Y-U-K-O-N.  Holikachuk,  42 H-O-L-I-K-A-C-H-U-K, Ingalik, I-N-G-A-L-I-K.  In the  43 north that is -- what this is is a shared aberrancy.  44 It is a shared aberrancy.  It is an unusual feature  45 of those combination prefixes there and then in  46 Babine-Wet'suwet'en, and now in that one in these  47 extinct languages of the Columbia River known as 11494  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 Kwalhioqua-Tlatskanai.  And that is here in page 56,  2 the spelling of Kwalhioqua-Tlatskanai.  The quote --  3 I am just giving you the gist of the quote on the  4 bottom of page 56 here.  This is from Krauss 1979.  5 And what Krauss is doing there is making an  6 evaluation of my handwritten notes from Hagwilget,  7 my 1975 and 1978 notes these features appear and he  8 wrote this in an article at that time.  9 Q    You at page 56 draw meaning from that similarity.  10 At the first full paragraph of the page you say:  11  12 "Probably the strongest evidence for the  13 relatively lengthy time of occupation for  14 the Babine-Wet'suwet'en is that we have  15 noticed several affinities between  16 Northwestern Carrier and some of the  17 Athabaskan languages of the Pacific Coast."  18  19 And that is there spelled out.  And you then cite  20 Krauss who then has collected data of the two tiny  21 and extinct Athabaskan groups on either side of the  22 Columbia River in Washington and Oregon, and he  23 recognized some of the grammatical subtle  24 affinities.  Now, I wonder before we get into the  25 Krauss quote whether you have any independent  26 knowledge of the affinities which were noted by  27 Krauss and which were cited by him and reflected  28 here in your report?  29 A    You mean subsequent to this?  30 Q    Yes.  31 A    Yes, there is more information now in terms of  32 lexical patterns too, that's vocabulary patterns.  33 Up to now we are talking strictly in the formal  34 realm of grammar and phonology and patterns that we  35 feel in a significant way.  You combine that with  36 the vocabulary evidence that we are accumulating and  37 there are some interesting patterns there with  38 Babine-Wet'suwet'en and several Pacific Coast  39 Athabaskan languages.  One example, just to give an  40 example, is Yel, Y-E-L in Babine-Wet'suwet'en is a  41 great-grandchild.  That kinship term is at this  42 point in no other northern language, but it is in  43 Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  It is in all of the Pacific  44 Coast Athabaskan languages as a grandchild, but not  45 a great-grandchild.  But there are other things in  46 this realm of vocabulary distribution which  47 accumulate and begin to become a corollary kind of 11495  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 evidence for migration scenario.  2 Q    And you cite a passage which you are quoting from  3 Krauss at the bottom of page 56.  I am not going to  4 repeat the paragraph here, but you are talking about  5 the affinities between the Pacific Coast people and  6 the Babine Hagwilget.  This is continued onto the  7 top of page 57.  Is Krauss -- Dr. Krauss here citing  8 a passage that you wrote based on your own  9 handwritten notes?  10 A    Well, yes, he is citing data from my Hagwilget notes  11 1973, '75 and '78.  12 Q    So this is —  13 A    Based on my own published -- I still have never  14 published any Babine-Wet'suwet'en articles or data  15 at all.  16 Q    And you therefore agree with the -- do you adopt the  17 passages that are here attributed to Krauss as being  18 accurate?  19 A    Oh, yes, they are striking.  He put it in -- this is  20 a review of the literature article that came out in  21 1979 on recent research in Athabaskan liguistics.  22 Q    And you then go onto say at page 57 that:  23  24 "This evidence suggests that the  25 Babine-Wet'suwet'en was a staging area..."  26  27 I am reading from the first full paragraph from  28 which the Pacific Coast People, and I don't attempt  29 to pronounce their names, and other Pacific Coast  30 Athabaskans migrated south.  Now, if you could just  31 explain further what is meant by a staging area.  32 A    Well, we have a larger spread of Athabaskan  33 languages in North America.  It does seem that the  34 great diversity of the languages is in the north and  35 some groups have moved in a southerly direction.  36 And like I said earlier, the Apache Navajo dates  37 aren't real ancient or they are more recent in a  38 relative chronology than the Pacific Coast  39 Athabaskan dates.  And then you model these things.  40 We look at the south-west migration differently and  41 that would be another topic to discuss.  But there  42 must be some model for the Apache and Navajo  43 dispersal and similarly in the Pacific Coast there  44 have been various discussions of this.  I mean these  45 aren't real recent issues in anthropology and  46 linguistics.  People have known about the Pacific  47 Coast Athabaskan languages for a century or more. 11496  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  Q  11  12  13  14  15  A  16  MR.  WILLMS:  17  18  19  20  21  22  THE  COURT:  23  THE  WITNESS  24  25  26  MS.  MANDELL  27  Q  28  A  29  30  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  THE  COURT:  36  THE  WITNESS  37  38  MR.  WILLMS:  39  40  41  THE  COURT:  42  THE  WITNESS  43  MR.  WILLMS:  44  45  THE  COURT:  46  THE  WITNESS  47  There is a literature on Pacific Coast Athabaskan,  but the Babine-Wet'suwet'en data which has been --  until Story 1984 virtually nothing ever published.  And the stem list that we accumulate now we start to  see interesting ways of articulating the hypothesis  in more sophisticated ways.  It does look like there  was Babine-Wet'suwet'en contribution to the Pacific  Coast Athabaskan and also Carrier too.  Also Carrier  too.  You then go onto cite Golla, Dr. Golla who suggests  that the Athabaskans arrived in California and  Oregon about 400 to 500 A.D.  First of all, could  you explain how, to your knowledge, Golla would have  arrived at this date?  Well, he makes those --  My lord, this one I object to.  It's Golla Personal  Communication which must be hearsay.  And unless the  witness has got some paper that Golla has written  that he wants to refer to, I object to this  backdating through a personal communication with  somebody else through this witness.  PC means personal communication, does it?  : Yes.  And I could cite another place where the same  dates are published and actually should have been  cited here in this report too.  If you could give that cite, please?  Yes, Krauss and Golla in 1981, the same article that  has been cited in my report has the quote.  If I dug  around in my briefcase I could read the quote.  That is from the handbook of North American Indians  that is cited on page 53?  Yes.  I could find that quote if it is relevant.  I  would have to look in my briefcase.  Are you pursuing your objection, Mr. Willms, if --  : Well, there is a published 500 A.D. date that I  could read.  As long as -- my lord, I just want some documentary  source so that I could satisfy myself what the  process was.  Do you have access to this handbook?  : Volume 6.  Perhaps through the witness would be the best way.  It's a difficult handbook to get ahold of.  Volume 6 he says.  :  This is an oversight on my part, actually.  This  reference should have been in the report.  Krauss 11497  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. WILLMS:  THE WITNESS  MS. MANDELL  THE  THE  COURT:  WITNESS  THE  THE  COURT:  WITNESS  THE  THE  COURT:  WITNESS  and Golla 1981, page 68.  "The isolated Pacific Coast Athabaskan  languages appear to have been an offshoot  from the British Columbia languages, as was  Kwalhioqu-Tlatskanai.  The degree of  differentiation among the more isolated PCA  languages indicates that these intermontane  and coastal migrations took place for the  most part before 500 A.D."  I read the quote in another document that the  witness has, my lord.  I would still like to see the  document that he is referring to Krauss and Golla.  :  Well, this same reference is in the report.  It  would be available in any library here in town.  The  Handbook of North American Indians, volume 6, the  Subartic, edited by June Helm is where the article  is.  So it's in the bibliography too.  That's the  article.  It is an oversight in our report that I  didn't cite the published date.  But I did talk with  Victor Golla too and there was some communication to  elaborate the report.  :  That is found at page 79 of the report.  It is the  fourth item listed in the bibliography.  How would he arrive at a time like 500 A.D.?  :  Well, that's a good question.  It's an estimate  that is based on his sense of diversification among  six or so languages in that area which have greater  diversity within each other than say Navajo and  Apache do in their area.  Yes.  : And it is an estimate based on parallels with other  languages in California that have familial  relationships with each other and have divergences  with one another in the California realm.  And it is  also similar to Krauss' 2,500 year estimate for --  22,000 to 2,500 year estimate on proto-Athabaskan.  It is the same sort of relative reasoning that  historical linguists do, not only Athabaskan  linguistics, but other comparative linguistic  studies.  These are relative dates.  He thinks about  how much time is needed to account for the  differences that have accumulated amongst those  languages.  It is a judgment?  : It is a judgment. 1149?  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1  MS.  MANDELL  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  8  9  10  11  12  MS.  MANDELL  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  THE  COURT:  20  21  THE  WITNESS  22  THE  COURT:  23  THE  WITNESS  24  25  MS.  MANDELL  26  Q  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  Have you in the work you've done with the Athabaskan  speaking languages had any occasion to corroborate  or to -- or to add further information with respect  to this date that Golla suggests?  Well, not in terms of their data and local  diversification in the Pacific Coast because I don't  know all of the material there.  But the notion that  Babine-Wet'suwet'en has some striking features that  are then shared in those languages has been  amplified by our work.  :  At the bottom of page 57, you in the bottom  paragraph say:  "Based upon the relatively conservative  phonology of the Babine-Wet'suwet'en, the  links between" --  I'm sorry, that is not Babine-Wet'suwet'en, isn't  that Northwest Carrier?  : NWC, I am using a different name there.  Is that Babine?  :  BW is substituted for NWC.  I would be glad to  explain or develop that at some other time.  "Based on the relatively conservative  phonology of the Babine-Wet'suwet'en ..."  And this is what you have already explained to us  earlier when you looked at the language  characteristics through table 6; is that right?  Mh'm.  "...the links between the  Babine-Wet'suwet'en and the southerly  Pacific Coast Athabaskan languages..."  And that's what you've just explained to us with  respect to the common shared traits between the  Babine-Wet'suwet'en and the Pacific Coast; is that  correct?  Yes.  And the Alaskan community.  "...and the array of lexical diffusions  between the Babine-Wet'suwet'en and the 11499  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 Gitksan to the west."  2  3 And we haven't canvassed that together yet?  4 A    Yes, that's another topic in the seriation process.  5 Q  6 "I suggest an early migration south  7 through the Cordillera region and  8 occupation of the Babine Lake Bulkley River  9 area by peoples ancestral to the present  10 Babine-Wet'suwet'en occupants for at least  11 1500 to 2000 years."  12  13 A    Yes.  14 Q    And is that your conclusion about time?  15 A    Yes, I feel that there is no other way to account  16 for the striking affinities of the Pacific Coast  17 Athabaskan language and Babine-Wet'suwet'en in some  18 non-coincidental ways and their time depths down  19 there unless you assume Babine-Wet'suwet'en were in  20 there area for say 2000 years.  That's an early  21 conservative minimum date of them being in their  22 area.  I'm not saying when they got there, that's my  23 estimate that that's a good judgment of them being  24 there say for 2000 years.  25 Q    And when you yourself cite the opinion of 1500 to  26 2000 years of the present Babine-Wet'suwet'en  27 occupants in their area, is that in your view a  28 conservative estimate or is it -- do those years  29 encompass the total reach of time when that  30 occupation may have taken place?  31 A    Well, I'm saying that that's an onset or a minimum  32 time moving back from the present that you would  33 want to speculate that they are there.  The other  34 question could be:  How long do I think they have  35 been there, and that I would rather not speculate  36 on.  But I think this is a conservative judgment  37 based on language relationships to say they've been  38 there for 2000 years.  39 Q    Later in the same paragraph you say:  40  41 "I suggest that the Central and Southern  42 Carrier have entered the area separately  43 and later from the east."  44  45 And this is in answer now to the question which you  46 earlier posed, and that is whether the Central and  47 Southern Carrier and the Babine-Wet'suwet'en were at 11500  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 one time one language and they branched off; is that  2 correct?  3 A    Yes, I've rephrased on this a little bit in the  4 Kari-Hargus paper we have a somewhat different  5 phraseology.  But I think there is an early Carrier  6 migration to the Fraser River too, but I see it as  7 independent migration from the Babine-Wet'suwet'en  8 migration.  But I am not saying they have only been  9 there a short time either.  They've been there a  10 long time, too.  They also have some input into the  11 Pacific Coast Athabaskan migration.  12 Q    And you say:  13  14 "The Sekani to the northeast seem to be  15 relatively recent migrants from east of the  16 Rocky Mountains."  17  18 A    Yes, we have refined this modelling in terms of  19 British Columbia and the new paper in Exhibit 5.  So  20 there is more sophisticated generalizations between  21 Sekani and Tahltan too that we have there.  22 Q    But is this still your opinion?  23 A    Yes.  24 Q    And so if you could take then the three major  25 Athabaskan language groups that you identify here at  26 page 58, the Babine-Wet'suwet'en, the Central and  27 Southern Carrier and the Sekani, which of those  28 Athabaskan language groups, in your opinion, have  29 been in their areas the longest?  30 A    Well, I -- my sense of it is that  31 Babine-Wet'suwet'en has these conservatives and  32 would rank as having the longest occupation and  33 Carrier second.  But long, very long and the Fraser  34 River drainages.  And Sekani for reasons --  35 Q    All right.  36 A    -- relatively.  In a relative chronology.  37 Q    And the last paragraph at page 58 you say:  38  39 "The picture that is emerging for the  40 Athabaskan languages of the north-central  41 B.C. area, is that of diversity and  42 long-term occupation.  "Carrier" is in fact  43 two languages.  The interface between  44 Northwest Carrier here Babine-Wet'suwet'en  45 and here Central/Southern Carrier to the  46 north with the extinct, phonologically  47 aberrant Tsetsaut." 11501  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  MS.  MANDELL:  Q  A  Tsetsaut which we mentioned earlier this morning.  "...the Sekani, and the Tahltan is one of  real complexity and implies long-term  occcupancy."  Is that your opinion?  Yes.  Where are the Tsetsaut?  :  That is this group in the Stewart, B.C. area  formerly.  Yes, thank you.  : That probably went extinct in the mid 1920's and  was documented by Franz Boas in I think it was 1885.  It is an interesting part of the picture for British  Columbia too if we -- you know, if we brought that  in.  But it is an interesting and aberrant  Athabaskan language.  You do use the word "is emerging", "The picture is  that is emerging for the Athabaskan languages."  Is  that your opinion that the picture is only emerging  or how would you describe the conclusion which you  drew at page 58?  Well, you know, Sekani until Hargus' work in the  1980's was virtually a undocumented language.  And  that is a large language area and there is northern  and southern Sekani dialects.  There is a lot of  data on Sekani, just for example.  And the similarly  with Babine-Wet'suwet'en we have a lot of  data in  the 1970's and '80's, most of it is unpublished.  So  the Athabaskan language record for British Columbia  is getting more articulated, more detailed.  It is  not as voluminously documented in terms of  neighbouring languages as is in Alaska, for example.  But, yes, lots of short-term modelling of  prehistory.  Short term meaning the one to two  thousand year level is possible through close  language documentation.  Then we get more  comfortable with dates in the one to two thousand  year level looking at diffusion patterns amongst the  languages and vocabulary.  Before we leave this section, I wanted to ask you  whether or not the date that we earlier refer to of  the disper -- the dispersal that was cited in your  report and attributed first to Dr. Krauss of the 11502  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  22,000-2,500 years ago when the proto-homeland  language dispersed, is that a date which also  appears in the handbook of North American Indians?  A    Yeah, that's in Krauss 1973, Krauss 1979 and in  Krauss and Golla 1981.  MS. MANDELL:  All right.  I would like to ask you to turn to the  next chapter which is the relationship between  Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en.  This is one of the  factors that you identified at page 57.  This  analysis which assisted you in your conclusion that  the present occupation of the Babine Lake-Bulkley  River area were by peoples ancestral to the present  Babine-Wet'suwet'en occupants from at least 1500 to  2000 years.  I would like to explore with you the  work you've done here and your conclusions.  If I could ask your lordship to turn to tab 6.  We have here set out the curriculum vitae of Dr.  Bruce Rigsby.  My friends don't seek to  cross-examine Dr. Rigsby, but I do think -- subject  to their objections, I would hope that we would be  able to file his curriculum vitae because I think  that especially the way in which Dr. Rigsby's  knowledge and Dr. Kari's are interacted in this last  chapter would require your lordship to understand  the qualifications of Dr. Rigsby and his area of  expertise.  I should first find out from my friends  if they object to the filing of this curriculum  vitae, and if not then I will proceed.  MR. WILLMS:  Well, my lord, I don't object.  Although we are not  requiring Dr. Rigsby to be here, weight is always an  aspect of every piece of evidence.  We are not going  to leave the weight of Dr. Rigsby's portion alone.  COURT:  Yes.  WILLMS:  So that can be —  COURT:  Mr. Macaulay?  MACAULAY:  I don't have any objection.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  COURT:  Exhibit number?  REGISTRAR:  That will be exhibit 876, tab 6.  (EXHIBIT 876:  Curriculum Vitae of Bruce Rigsby)  MR. MANDELL:  My lord, I would ask you to review the field work  and the travel section of Dr. Rigsby together with  the work under academic experience and his  bibliography.  I am not going to now take you  through each of these items, but if I could explain  to your lordship that his work with the Tsimshian 11503  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 dialects is the area from which we were  2 particularily interested in as expertise.  3 THE COURT:  Yes.  4 MS. MANDELL:  And that in both his field work and travels as  5 well as his bibliography you will see that he is  6 well published and very well researched in this  7 area.  If your lordship wishes, I will go through  8 the various items.  9 THE COURT:  I can read them here.  There are references to  10 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en.  All right.  Thank you.  11 MS. MANDELL:  12 Q    Dr. Kari, you've worked with Dr. Rigsby before, have  13 you?  14 A    Yes, he was my advisor in graduate school at the  15 University of New Mexico.  He was also the chairman  16 of my dissertation committee.  17 Q    And apart from your studying under him, had you any  18 other joint projects or worked with him in any other  19 field or research capacity since your graduation or  20 since your Ph.D.?  21 A    No, not until 1985, '86.  22 MS. MANDELL:  Now, in this chapter which you've identified as  23 The Relationship of Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en, could  24 you explain to the court --  25 THE COURT:  You are back in tab 2 now?  26 MS. MANDELL:  I am back in tab 2 at page 60.  27 THE COURT:  Yes, thank you.  2 8 MS. MANDELL:  29 Q    Could you explain to the court how this chapter was  30 prepared by yourself and Dr. Rigsby?  31 A    Which page are you on?  32 Q    Page 60 at tab 2.  33 A    Well, one of the things we did when we -- I guess it  34 was '86 actually that we both overlapped in -- to  35 prepare the report was in May of 1986, as I recall,  36 is we started to share our vocabulary files with  37 Tsimshianic languages and with Gitksan and with  38 Babine-Wet'suwet'en and other Athabaskan.  So we  39 have ways of looking at what are borrowed words or  40 loan words and directionality of loan words.  We  41 have interesting hypotheses about that, you know,  42 that are -- do contribute to a chronology as well in  43 British Columbia in terms of neighbours, in one case  44 in Athabaskan language and in one case the  45 Tsimshianic language.  So with Bruce being an expert  46 on Tsimshian and me on Athabaskan, we go quite far  47 with that sort of thing. 11504  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 Q    And so if I could simplify the contribution this  2 way, the stem list which has been marked as Exhibit  3 873.  4 A    Yes.  5 Q    Is this the major reference point from which you  6 approached the vocabulary of the Babine-Wet'suwet'en  7 in your work with Dr. Rigsby?  8 A    Well, this document you have is a January 1989 date  9 so Bruce didn't see that document.  But, yes, at  10 that time I had a handwritten slip file of the words  11 that -- vocabulary slips that have now been moved  12 into this stem list on computer now.  But we were  13 looking at my notes or I was looking at my notes and  14 vocabulary items and he was doing the same with his  15 and Tsimshian and Gitksan.  Then we would look at  16 cases where there is similar words in both languages  17 and then we wanted to see if we could account for  18 that.  And in some cases we find Gitksan borrowing  19 Wet'suwet'en word, and vice versa --  2 0 Q    All right.  21 A    -- Wet'suwet'en borrowing a Gitksan word.  And then  22 we group those words into semantic domain is another  23 thing we do.  24 Q    So essentially you identified the Athabaskan words  25 and Dr. Rigsby identified the Tsimshian words?  26 A    Yes.  27 Q    And together you formed an analysis of borrowed  2 8 words?  29 A    Yes.  30 Q    If I could turn your attention to page 60 of the  31 report at tab 2.  You quote here from Dr. Sapir  32 again, and you note that in a publication he wrote  33 on language:  34  35 "The Athabaskan languages generally did not  36 borrow elements and features freely from other  37 languages with which they were in contact."  38  39 And you cite a fairly lengthy passage from Dr. Sapir  40 that concludes at page 62.  41  42 "Yet nowhere do we find that in Athabaskan  43 dialect has borrowed at all freely from a  44 neighbouring language.  These languages always  45 found it easier to create new words by  4 6 compounding a fresh element already to hand.  47 They have for this reason been highly 11505  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 resistant to receiving the linguistic impress  2 of the external cultural experience of their  3 speakers."  4  5 Is this a conclusion of Dr. Sapir which you adopt?  6 A    Well, I could qualify it and extemporize on this at  7 length.  There is a lot more data around since 1929.  8 There are Athabaskan languages with, you know,  9 varying amounts of loan words in them.  But in a  10 statistical sense we are looking at a small number  11 of items we've found is Gitksan loan words into  12 Wet'suwet'en.  And non-Athabaskan loan words is  13 certainly under 150.  It is interesting.  And, yes,  14 Sapir's statements that they tend to innovate and  15 develop new terms is true.  Yes, they do tend to  16 develop new terms.  So, yes, it's true.  I could  17 elaborate more in an academic sense about loan words  18 and Athabaskan languages, but the more general point  19 is that determining borrowings of words and sources  20 of words tells us a lot about linguistic prehistory  21 in non -- in languages with no literary or literate  22 tradition where there is no early written documents  23 and so forth.  24 Q    You say at page 62 in the middle of the paragraph  25 that:  26  27 "Sapir's point has been borne out in later  28 studies of Athabaskan languages in several  29 culture areas:  they do not borrow much, but  30 simply their own structural and lexical  31 resources to talk about new situations and  32 things."  33  34 Is that what you yourself have discovered in the  35 course of your work with the Athabaskan speaking  36 peoples?  37 A    Well, I don't know.  I don't care for the phrasing  38 of my report here too much, but --  39 Q    Perhaps you can say it in a way that you do agree  4 0 with.  41 A    There are some significant borrowings of Gitksan  42 vocabulary items into Wet'suwet'en.  It seems that  43 Sapir overstated the case that they don't borrow  44 words at all.  It could be looked at that Sapir 1921  45 when people read that, that's a basic sort of  46 textbook in linguistic courses.  It is a bit of an  47 overstatement. 11506  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 Q    All right.  And so when you later go onto say that:  2  3 "It is only now that we can say with some  4 confidence that the variety of Northwestern  5 Carrier spoken by the Wet'suwet'en provides  6 a clear exception to Sapir's  7 generalization, but that statement must be  8 qualified with the note that we have found  9 only one instance of Wet'suwet'en borrowing  10 a verb root from Gitksan, and we do not  11 know how widespread its use is within the  12 speech community."  13  14 Is that part of the qualification as stated how you  15 adopt it or do you wish to make changes to that?  16 A    Well, perhaps to make one point here is that  17 Wet'suwet'en is really a pure Athabaskan language in  18 structure.  We are looking at some vocabulary items  19 that statistically aren't enormously great but are  20 there that do need to be accounted for too.  And so  21 there is not massive borrowing and reshaping of  22 Wet'suwet'en by say a different language of people.  23 And in my work with cataloguing things in the  24 morpheme list and the stem list, I have good control  25 over what is an indigenous Athabaskan morpheme and  2 6 what we either know is a borrowed morpheme or is  27 suspect and possibly a candidate for a borrowed  28 morpheme.  I have those all marked with distinct  29 abbreviations.  30 THE COURT:  We will take the afternoon adjournment.  31 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will recess.  32 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  33  34  35 I hereby certify the foregoing to  36 be a true and accurate transcript  37 of the proceedings herein to the  38 best of my skill and ability.  39  40  41    42 LISA FRANKO, OFFICIAL REPORTER  43 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  44  45  46  47 11507  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO AN ADJOURNMENT AT 3:25 p.m.)  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  A  Q  A  THE COURT:  Ms. Mandell.  MS. MANDELL:  Q    Thank you.  I'd ask you to turn to page 63, tab 2.  You mention in the middle of the page that -- you  say:  "The previously common bilingualism in Gitksan  among the Wet'suwet'en that Jenness reported  and present Wet'suwet'en elders speak of."  And I just wanted to stop there and ask you what  first of all is your opinion regarding the state of  bilingualism among the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en?  Today?  Yes.  Oh, there are quite a few persons who speak both  languages, one of whom is your translator here, Dora  Wilson-Kenny, a modern-day bearer of that tradition.  It is a very ancient multilingualism -- tradition of  bilingualism between two different languages.  And I didn't know whether or not in your report you  were, when you use the word, "the previously common  bilingualism in Gitksan among the Wet'suwet'en",  whether or not that's a long standing bilingualism  between the two nations.  Were you referring -- were  you referring to a time depth when you were -- they  are talking about the common bilingualism?  Yes.  There is plenty of evidence for a model of  bilingualism in the western boundary for a long  time.  I can't date it but it's not a recent  phenomenon in any sense.  It could be described as  after historic contact or something like that.  You mean it is not something --  :  Is somehow in the last 200 years or so, no.  It is longer than that?  :  Much longer than that.  A  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  MS. MANDELL  Q  And in your article you -- or in your opinion, you  are talking about the common bilingualism in Gitksan  among the Wet'suwet'en and then you later talk about  this bilingualism which the present Wet'suwet'en  elders speak of.  Is there in your opinion equally  the same bilingualism among the Gitksan as among the  Wet'suwet'en? 1150?  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  MS.  MANDELL  21  22  THE  COURT:  23  24  25  26  THE  WITNESS  27  THE  COURT:  28  THE  WITNESS  29  THE  COURT:  30  THE  WITNESS  31  32  33  THE  COURT:  34  THE  WITNESS  35  THE  COURT:  36  MS.  MANDELL  37  Q  38  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  45  46  47  Well, I could define a term of asymmetrical  bilingualism.  This does seem to be part of the  pattern here in a couple of interesting ways.  It  seems of people of Wet'suwet'en ethnic predominance  or affiliation tend to know Gitksan more than the  reverse.  And the counter part to that in the  eastern area with the Babine-Wet'suwet'en Carrier  language boundary, we have a lot of evidence that  Babine-Wet'suwet'en people tend to speak Carrier  more than the reverse.  So there is asymmetrical  bilingualism on both sides of the  Babine-Wet'suwet'en boundary that we -- actually we  can observe that as we do our work in 1988 as  participant observers and we have anecdotal evidence  that looks like asymmetricality in those two  directions and interesting sophisticated  multilingualism by Babine-Wet'suwet'en speakers.  That's one of their defining traits, their cultural  trait.  :  And at page 64, you state at the first paragraph  earlier --  I am sorry, before you leave that, that doesn't mean  much if I don't know what palatals are,  p-a-1-a-t-a-l-s, and I won't even try to pronounce  the next one.  :  Alveopalatals.  Yes.  :  On page 63?  Yes.  :  Ch, a ch pronunciation is a palatal pronunciation.  Alveopalatal is more of a ts pronunciation.  You  could write t-s if you would.  T-s or t-s-e?  :  T-s.  Thank you.  Before we leave this page, in page 63, that  paragraph there, is this paragraph here defining the  difference in grammar primarily between the two  languages?  In the first paragraph of 64?  Page 63?  Well, that's the comments on the phonological  systems in the area.  There are some similarities  with Babine-Wet'suwet'en and Gitksan in that they  both have front and back velars and  Babine-Wet'suwet'en is the only Canadian Athabaskan 11509  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  language with front and back velars so -- and they  are neighbours, so that's a congruence between two  genetically unrelated languages, but it is  interesting to point it out.  The first paragraph on  64 says we have found no major grammatical  borrowings of any kind, virtually nothing that would  constitute a grammatical, like a prefix or suffix  being borrowed that has some sort of rampant flavour  to the language of being Tsimshianic in the  Babine-Wet'suwet'en side or vice versa, Athabaskan  in the Gitksan side.  Q    All right.  What's a velar?  A   A velar?  That's two sound series in the mouth.  You  can talk about front velars being on a "k" position  and back velars being a "q" position.  Eskimo  languages are famous for "k" and "q" contrasts and  so -- well, the northwest coast languages many of  the northwest coasts have K and Q.  Could you spell the consonants that you are  sounding?  K versus Q.  K being front velar, q being back  velar.  I don't see any reference to this.  Where do you  find this?  :  I was referring to the word -- the sentence that,  in the paragraph your lordship drew out at page 53,  it is the --  63.  :  -- 63, it is the fifth line down.  We have had it  before.  Velars are what?  :  They are sounds that are pronounced further back  in the mouth.  You asked me palatal, your lordship.  That's more in the point of the palate and velar is  more in the centre of the mouth and then it is  divided into regions.  Uvular is sometimes a term  used for the back part of the upper mouth.  COURT:  You spelled it k, q?  WITNESS:  That's a kind of a code, you know, short  abbreviation for languages that have that contrast.  We are not just saying there is two phonemes that  have that constrast.  What you get are ten, five  front velar phonemes and five back velar phonemes.  I could say them all but --  MS. MANDELL:  I should just get the rest of these definitions.  I don't know that we've got them.  In paragraph 63,  you talk about the neighbouring Gitksan language and  THE  MS.  THE  MS.  THE  THE  Q  A  COURT:  MANDELL  COURT:  MANDELL  COURT:  WITNESS  THE  THE 11510  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  THE  COURT:  9  MS.  MANDELL  10  Q  11  A  12  13  THE  COURT:  14  15  THE  WITNESS  16  THE  COURT:  17  THE  WITNESS  18  THE  COURT:  19  THE  WITNESS  20  THE  COURT:  21  MS.  MANDELL  22  Q  23  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  THE  COURT:  30  THE  WITNESS  31  THE  COURT:  32  THE  WITNESS  33  34  35  36  37  MS.  MANDELL  38  Q  39  A  40  41  42  THE  COURT:  43  44  THE  WITNESS  45  46  47  it is about almost half-way through the paragraph,  page 63:  "...contrasts palatal and uvular positions of  articulation."  What is the difference there?  We have palatal, that's the c-h.  C-h, and uvular?  It is just that there are three series.  Palatal,  front velar, and back velar, ie, uvular in Gitksan.  How would you pronounce -- how do you spell the  u-v-u-1-a-r sound?  :  U-v-u-1-a-r.  How would you pronounce it?  Yes.  :  Q.  How would you spell that?  :  A "Q".  Just Q.  And in the next sentence, you say:  "Gitksan also lacks distinctive..."  if you could pronounce the next two words, I  probably will not get them right?  Alveopalatal obstruents.  O-b-s-t-r-u-e-n-t-s for madam reporter.  :  Obstruents?  I just spelled it for the reporter, that's all.  :  Obstruents.  If we were to compare Gitksan and  Wet'suwet'en, there is a no series of a ts versus ch  contrast between them.  Both languages have less --  don't have that fine a distinction, they have a  single alveopalatal series.  Could you spell the sounds that you have just given?  T-s would be little further front, ts, and ch would  be a little further back, a ch palatal, I'd spell  that c-h.  And you're saying that there is no series of those  in which language?  :  In both languages that opposition is not  maintained.  Gets complicated.  Babine-Wet'suwet'en  eastern dialects in fact do shift k to ch so this  does restrict it to the Bulkley River, this point. 11511  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  MS. MANDELL  6  Q  7  8  A  9  10  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  A  31  MS. MANDELL  32  33  34  35  THE COURT:  36  MS. MANDELL  37  Q  38  39  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  Pretty arcane.  We are just comparing some  congruities in the sound systems between Gitksan and  Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  They aren't too significant  one way or other, but there are congruities.  So you do compare the congruities of the sound  system on page 63?  Yes.  We just try to check these things off that we  have been investigating and to make observations  about them.  And at page 64, you talk about the syntactic and  morphological structure.  Can you explain those two  words?  Yes, in terms of word order.  Is that syntactic?  Syntactic, and grammatical morphemes such as say  i-n-g in English or something, suffixation in verbs  and so forth.  There is no borrowing between Gitksan  and Wet'suwet'en in any way that we found.  And is that morphological when you talk about  grammatical morpheme?  Yes.  And you do conclude that the complex Wet'suwet'en  verbal system remains intact and unaffected by  linguistic contact and I guess Dr. Rigsby concludes:  "Similarly, the Gitksan verbal system shows no  evidence at all of Athabaskan influence."  Yes.  :  Now, you do find areas of sharing in the area of  nominals and that you have appendixed at appendix H,  and I wonder if we could now turn to that, that's  tab 3.  And let's see how to find it.  It's —  I found it.  It starts loanwords.  Loanwords, that's correct.  I wonder first whether  or not this list which is found at Appendix H, does  that accurately set out the loanwords which were  identified by yourself and Dr. Rigsby in the  preparation of this report?  Yes, that's as of 1986.  And has there been any further work by yourself or  Dr. Rigsby in the area of loanwords since 1986?  There have been some more accumulated but Rigsby and  I have not had a chance to collaborate to work up a  new updated list.  There could be an update on this 11512  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 that would be more detailed somewhat.  2 Q    The first area is identified at page 2 of the  3 appendix and it's marked at number 2, and it is  4 entitled Loans from Athabaskan to Gitksan?  5 A    Yes.  6 Q    And these are all words which, if you could look  7 through the area, the words set out in this section  8 all these words are words that are Athabaskan words  9 and which Dr. Rigsby was able to identify as being  10 borrowed by the Gitksan; is that correct?  11 A    Yes.  That's our evaluation of this group.  That  12 means we have an Athabaskan etymology for them.  13 They conform to Athabaskan structure, would have  14 morphemes that would be say on the  15 Babine-Wet'suwet'en stem list such as beaver or  16 something, and not the reverse.  They don't seem to  17 have Tsimshianic structure.  18 Q    And if I could ask you to go through the list of  19 loanwords from Athabaska into Gitksan, could you  20 generalize for us the kinds of words which are here  21 being borrowed?  22 A    Well, cariboo has an interior distribution as in  23 terms of the cariboo habitat.  That's interesting.  24 Moose would similarly say emerge from interior  25 British Columbia rather than being coastal.  26 Mountain sheep too I believe, I don't know British  27 Columbia biogeography real well, but -- and some of  28 these fish species I -- another one that's come up  29 is arctic ground squirrel recently.  Do you know the  30 arctic ground squirrel?  A very important animal in  31 the north and apparently comes down into British  32 Columbia somewhere down into the province just at  33 the north end of the Wet'suwet'en area.  Well,  34 apparently Gitksan borrowed the Athabaskan word for  35 arctic ground squirrel and so there is some pattern  36 here.  Do you want me to continue?  37 Q    Yes.  38 A    Well, some of the interior-oriented animals the  39 Gitksans seemed to borrow from Athabaskan languages  40 and you would just reason from that that Athabaskans  41 are more closely associated with the interior than  42 the Gitksan, or that they have a longer term upriver  43 occupation than the Gitksan do in an upriver  44 direction on the Skeena drainage would be another  45 way of commenting on that.  46 Q    All right.  And you at page 6 of the index point out  47 words which were loaned from Gitksan into 11513  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 Athabaskan, and I wonder if you could look through  2 that list and comment as you do as to whether or not  3 there is any significance in the kinds of words  4 which you and Dr. Rigsby found were borrowed from  5 the Gitksan into the Athabaskan language?  6 A    Yes.  In that case, in terms of the biogeography it  7 is the opposite.  The cedar is borrowed by the  8 Gitksan -- borrowed by the Babine-Wet'suwet'en from  9 the Gitksan and the cedar is a coastal-oriented tree  10 and actually thins out as you get through  11 Babine-Wet'suwet'en territory so the  12 Babine-Wet'suwet'en have a Gitksan word for cedar  13 and that is interesting in terms of the distribution  14 of cedar and obviously oolachen and herring eggs are  15 ocean products.  16 Q    That's found -- herring eggs are found at page 8?  17 A    Yes.  Those things, some ocean products the  18 Wet'suwet'en have borrowed through Gitksan.  19 Q    And would you identify killer whale at page 19 as  20 still part of this ocean-borrowing pattern?  21 A    Killer whale, page 9?  22 Q    Yes.  23 A    Yes.  Nexl in Wet'suwet'en.  24 Q    And seal on page 11?  25 A    Seal is another one, yeah.  26 Q    Apart from the ocean-borrowing orientation, are  27 there any other categories or significant words  28 which you identified were loaned from the Gitksan  29 into the Athabaskan?  30 A    Well, yes.  Some of this here is clearly in this --  31 in social protocol relating to potlatching and  32 feasting, such as some of these items I imagine as  33 specialists in this case would recognize some of  34 those, too.  Hawaal, collection of money and goods  35 at the potlatches, Wet'suwet'en borrowing from  36 Gitksan for that meaning.  H-a --  37 Q    Found at page 9?  38 A    W -- let me -- h-e-w-a-1.  And there is this  39 category of words that Babine-Wet'suwet'en has  40 borrowed from Gitksan but perhaps if this comes up  41 later with your expert testimony, statistically if  42 you looked at a lot of the cultural vocabulary in  43 Babine-Wet'suwet'en on potlatching and customs of  44 willing property and all this, it is predominently  45 Athabaskan in origin.  There are some borrowed words  46 of Gitksan origin in this domain and the reversed  47 does not seem to be true that we know Gitksan 11514  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 borrows social organization words from the  2 Babine-Wet'suwet'en to that degree, although there  3 may be a few floating around, too.  4 Q    Apart from the word hawaal which you identified,  5 would you also identify the word for escorts at page  6 8 as falling under that category?  7 A    Luliyh, yes, 1-u-l-i-y-h is the way I would spell it  8 today.  Some difference of view in terms of the  9 spelling of this report and the way we are writing  10 the language in 1988.  11 Q    At page 11 hendemenak', it is under spouses.  Is  12 this another such borrowed feast term?  Page 11.  13 A    Yes.  14 Q    Are there any other significant categories which you  15 would draw to our attention regarding the borrowed  16 words from the Gitksan into Athabaskan?  17 A    Well, I do hope there is some opportunity to talk  18 about deep diffusions and ancient borrowings versus  19 more recent borrowings and that involves looking at  20 these words in a larger regional network in the  21 northwest coast such as Gitksan does borrow rabbit  22 from Athabaskan but so does Haida in the Queen  23 Charlotte Islands, and what this implies is ancient  24 contact with Athabaskan peoples and northwest coast  25 peoples that is reflected in this list so these  26 borrowings aren't necessarily strictly as a result  27 of recent contact with Babine-Wet'suwet'en and  28 Gitksan.  Some of these are ancient contacts with  29 proto-Tsimshianic and proto-Athabaskan peoples.  30 Various areas there is this concept of deep  31 diffusions which we are gathering material on and  32 then we are looking at Tlingit, Haida, other  33 languages to the south such as Haisla or Bella  34 Coola, just trying to be broadminded about it.  One  35 of the categories or one of the examples that's  36 quite striking that isn't in here is this ax for  37 fern root but I don't know how much detail you want  38 on this.  There are deep diffusions that are very  39 ancient and are reflected in Babine-Wet'suwet'en  40 loanwords list and there are more recent, probably  41 more recent diffusions, and the control for there is  42 how widely distributed say is that Athabaskan  43 loanword within the four tsimshianic languages.  Is  44 it only in Gitksan or is it pan Tsimshian, you see,  45 so we do have various controls for looking at  46 seriation in vocabulary.  You shouldn't look at as  47 there is a boundary here and the words just go back 11515  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 and forth.  There are larger patterns in the  2 northwest coast and the interior of the coastal  3 ranges that we look at when we look at loanwords  4 like this.  That's known as aerial linguistics.  5 Q    You mentioned fern which is on page 3 of the words  6 that were borrowed from Athabaskan into Gitksan.  7 Could you explain what the significance is about  8 your use or your identifying the word fern?  9 A    Well, yeah, if we were going to use that example and  10 comment on it in more detail, it is only in four  11 Athabaskan languages -- there is more to be said  12 than is written right here.  It is only in four  13 Athabaskan languages so far that's been attested and  14 it is in coast Tsimshian and Nishga and Gitksan and  15 I forget about Tlingit, maybe not Tlingit.  So look  16 at that.  That's unusual scatter, of ax, ux here in  17 Alaska and then ax in Central Carrier, write that  18 a-x and u-x for Tanaina but a-x.  Ux, ax, aax, and I  19 remember Charlie Austin, Dora's father, telling me  20 tse 1'ax st'an and it is imbedded in a complex  21 compound in Hagwilget?  22 Q    Would you spell that last word?  23 A    T-s-e underline l-'-a-x, that's ax for fern.  St'an,  24 s-t-'-a-n.  The latter part means plant, but -- and  25 then you get it in all the Tsimshianic languages,  26 and nowhere else in between.  It is just a puzzle.  27 It shows that there are complex things to be learned  28 in the northwest coast that languages didn't  29 necessarily have their same geographical locations  30 today that they did thousands of years ago and that  31 that probably is not an ancient Athabaskan word,  32 that's probably a borrowing from one of the more  33 coastal languages and that would begin to account  34 for why the Athabaskan distribution a netword is so  35 restricted but that might illustrate what we look at  36 as a deep diffusion.  It is in all of Tsimshian and  37 it is in four Athabaskan languages that aren't even  38 neighbours, and it's not in Tlingit.  You'd think  39 Tlingit would have it.  40 THE COURT:  What is CT standing for?  41 THE WITNESS:  Coast Tsimshian.  42 MS. MANDELL:  43 Q    Could you look at the list of loanwords from  44 Athabaskan into Gitksan and Gitksan into Athabaskan  45 that we have already examined on pages 2 to 11 --  46 actually 2 to the middle of page 12 in the appendix  47 and here could you comment if you are able to on the 11516  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  THE COURT:  MS. MANDELL  Q  A  words which give rise to deeper time depth analysis  that the other words which you have already  identified?  Just in this list?  Well, cariboo must be in that  category of deep -- you want me to just leaf through  and say which ones might -- cariboo is in all of  Tsimshian so that's an ancient Athabaskan origin  word in all of Tsimshian.  This fern root is that  category or fern on page 3.  Mountain sheep which is  also in Tlingit and that's an ancient Athabaskan  word.  Debae is sheep -- well, d-e-b-a-e in Ahtna.  Debae is sheep in Ahtna.  It's Jumped to Navaho,  dibe is sheep in Navaho, and I will spell it in the  Navaho orthography, d-i-b-e with a high tone mark,  an accent, and it's Babine-Wet'suwet'en and many  other Athabaskan languages but just  Babine-Wet'suwet'en, debeyh, and then that's  d-e-b-e-y-h.  So those are all cognate Athabaskan  words and that's in all of the Tsimshianic languages  and in Tlingit so that's a deep diffusion.  I really  hadn't thought about doing this.  I could comment a  little more on ones that are -- rabbit is in that  department; snow-shoe hare is in that category  wherever that one is.  Interesting word for bag, I  might comment on.  Where is the word for bag,  Louise?  Gwaahl in Babine-Wet'suwet'en and that has  a real interesting geographical scatter on --  Page 12?  Bag net?  Not bag net.  Some kind of bag, sack or bag.  Rabbit  is on page 19, 20.  Sack on page 21.  This is real  interesting, real interesting here, especially if  you add the Alaskan picture to that.  It is real  interesting.  and whose ultimately source of the  word we really don't know for sure but these  unrelated languages have this word for a sack or a  bag and that as shown on page 21 includes Gitksan  Nishga, Coast Tsimshian, Haisla, and it says here  Wet'suwet'en.  Well, the Alaskan picture on that is  Ahtna and Tanaina but nowhere else in Alaskan and  Athabaska, and that has a curious distribution  somewhat like the fern root example or the fern  example, too.  This is what you do when you look at  deep diffusions.  We don't want to reduce the notion  of long words to thinking of their strictly at the  Gitksan, Babine-Wet'suwet'en inner face.  There is 11517  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  MS. MANDELL  THE COURT:  MS. MANDELL  Q  other dimensions to it that we as linguists and  students of pre-history want to model because, you  know, there is these different notions of the  proto-Athabaskan homeland and the relationship  between the Athabaskan, Tlingit, the Na-Dene  hyopthesis, and Northwest coast languages, Tsimshian  and Tlingit are neighbours and that kind of thing.  Q    At pages 12 to 23, you have there set out a heading  called regional loans.  What do you mean by regional  loans?  A    Well, that are broader than Gitksan Wet'suwet'en.  Q I see. And are these words where the regional  loanwords are used by both the Gitksan and the  Wet'suwet'en?  A    Not in every case such as net on page 18 is shown  between Gitksan,Nishga, Coast Tsimshian and Haisla  but not Babine-Wet'suwet'en so, you know, we are  looking at various possibilities of vocabulary  borrowing in different directions and the  implications of it do indicate -- I mean we do get  feelings of seriation and relative chronology again  in the sence of irrelative chronology, some of it  may pertain more to Tsimshian and its relations with  its neighbours than it does to Babine-Wet'suwet'en  and I am not an authority in any way to talk about  that sort of level in the coastal areas.  H-a stands for Haisla?  Haisla.  My lord, if I could just draw your attention to  page 2 of the appendix, there is an abbreviation  used there to describe what different symbols of the  appendix are.  Oh, thank you.  Yes, thank you.  What significance if any do you place on the list of  regional loanwords that are described between pages  12 and 23?  A    Well, in many things the Babine-Wet'suwet'en, you  know, it is safe to say is a long-term occupation  area by Athabaskan speakers who've had -- been  speaking other languages as well in a stable way and  have maintained their language in a pure way, too,  and who have been something of interesting  crossroads for the coastal culture and the interior  northern Athabaskans.  This could be -- I mean, I  think in every way Babine-Wet'suwet'en culture is  not accounted for as some simple imitation of the 1151?  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 northwest coast but is a -- has the earmarks of  2 being a cultural centre for northern Athabaskan and  3 there are other arguments in terms of matrilineal  4 clan and so forth which could be brought into this  5 too, but the combination of multilingual  6 sophistication, vocabulary -- strata in the  7 vocabulary contribute to this, the notion of  8 territoriality in Babine-Wet'suwet'en can't be  9 looked at as post contact or something.  It is a  10 very sophisticated amalgamation of Gitksan and  11 Athabaskan territoriality.  Place names is another  12 thing we will save for later, but these are  13 important issues that in some ways have been buried  14 in this notion of Carrier and simple Athabaskan  15 peoples in the ethnographic literature from 1920s  16 and whatnot.  So, you know -- and they -- people  17 have borrowed Athabaskan in this so-called  18 stratified societies on the coast, too.  It is a  19 complicated mesh of things that several of us as  20 colleagues by the way, I could mention some other  21 people whose work hasn't been mentioned at all, but  22 we -- Tlingit's specialist in our staff has  23 contributed a lot to this picture of deep diffusions  24 and his name is Jeff Leer, L-e-e-r, but -- and there  25 are other publications and so forth which contribute  26 to the notion of vocabulary patterning and I should  27 mention some work in Whitehorse and the Yukon  28 Territory going on with several Athabaskan languages  29 as well.  So there are interesting things from the  30 Athabaskan point of view that point to  31 Babine-Wet'suwet'en being a conservative language,  32 long-term occupancy and a very sophisticated culture  33 for, you know, for a very long time.  And other  34 inferences could be made for the Gitksan, too, but I  35 am not an expert on Gitksan or Tsimshian.  36 Q    All right.  If I could ask you, between pages 23 to  37 page 25, could you speak of a heading which you  38 called chance coincidences?  39 A    Yes, this is interesting.  40 Q    What are you there referring to?  41 A    It just shows we like to think we are open-minded  42 and we want to rule out -- there are accidental  43 similarities in language.  I think in Hindi, the  44 kut -- kut kat means cut or something in Hindi and  45 English but, you know, things do happen that don't  46 necessarily qualify as loanwords too and we as  47 linguists and specialists in what we are trying to 11519  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  Q  9  A  10  THE  COURT:  11  THE  WITNESS  12  13  MS.  MANDELL  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  THE  COURT:  21  THE  WITNESS  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  THE  COURT:  30  THE  WITNESS  31  32  33  THE  COURT:  34  THE  WITNESS  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  MS.  MANDELL  44  Q  45  A  46  47  do in aerial linguisticss want to -- like the land  slide glacier example is interesting.  Page 24?  Page -- what is that, 24.  Yes.  And this one is one of my favourite roots actually  with Babine-Wet'suwet'en is lo is glacier.  Could you spell that?  Slashed l-o or underline l-o.  l-o-o or l-o?  :  I am giving the reporter the 1988 practical  orthography.  I could explain that to --  Barred l-o?  But I am just using one o now.  If I were  proof-reading your transcript or something I would  want to use the modified orthography, but the 'anlu'  apparently is rock slide in Gitksan, and lo is  glacier in Wet'suwet'en.  How do you spell this 'anlu'?  :  'Anlu' is '-a-n- underline 1-u-'.  But the  Babine-Wet'suwet'en have a meaning for glacier for  lo, okay, and the Sekani and the Tahltan do too, but  not here in British Columbia -- I mean, in the Yukon  area in Tutchone and Tagish.  There are glaciers of  course all through this area.  They do again in  upper Tanana, Ahtna and Tanaina, but not anywhere  else.  Could we have those two words, please?  :  Southern Tutchone, T-u-t-c-h-o-n-e; Upper Tanana,  T-a-n-a-n-a; Ahtna, A-h-t-n-a; and Tanaina.  This  same word is available up here but it means ice.  That's in northern Alaska?  :  Yes, in northern Alaska, and it is in that area  that the root has the meaning glacier.  The same  root is used in unriped berries and hailstones and a  single word that has two meanings in Ahtna, Tanaina  and Babine-Wet'suwet'en, that double meaning for  unripe berries and hailstones is using the same  stemming glacier, and let me just mention the  Babine-Wet'suwet'en name for Frying Pan Mountain is  between Takla Lake and Babine Lake is Lodzeltey.  Spell that, please?  Barred-1-o-d-z-e-barred-l-t-e-y.  And that means  Glacier Mountain Trail.  This is a place name for --  between Takla Lake and Babine Lake and there is no 11520  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Ms. Mandell  1 glacier in those ranges right now.  It is  2 deglaciated so that means that place name dates from  3 a time when the area had been glaciated.  I don't  4 know when that would be, maybe not very long ago, I  5 don't know.  But the meaning of glacier in  6 Babine-Wet'suwet'en is not pan Athabaskan, it is in  7 languages where there has been close association  8 with glaciated environments.  9 THE COURT:  We will adjourn until tomorrow morning, thank you.  10 MS. MANDELL:  Thank you.  11 THE REGISTRAR:  Ten o'clock, my lord?  12 THE COURT:  Yes, ten o'clock.  13 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until ten  14 o'clock tomorrow morning.  15  16 I hereby certify the foregoing to  17 be a true and accurate transcript  18 of the proceedings herein,  19 transcribed to the best of my  20 skill and ability.  21  22  23  24  25  26 TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter.  27 United Reporting Service Ltd.  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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