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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-03-08] British Columbia. Supreme Court Mar 8, 1989

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 1299?  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  MR.  COURT  RUSH:  THE  MR.  MS.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  Vancouver, B.C.  March 8, 1989  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 9:00 a.m.)  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  Columbia, Vancouver, this Wednesday, March 8, 1989,  calling Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen at  bar.  I caution you, witness, you are still under  oath.  Mr. Rush.  Now, just on the matter that we left off with last  night, my lord, I took part of the last evening's off  time to determine from my own records whether or not  what is being said about certain of the notes not  having been passed over to my friends.  My records  indicate that all of the tabs 16 to 24 and indeed  other interview notes that I'm going to be referring  to have been disclosed to my learned friends.  They  take some issue apparently still this morning with one  of the notes of one of these interviewed hereditary  chiefs, but frankly I have reviewed mine and my  transfer letters indicate that they received all of  these.  Well, I'm sure your friends are grateful.  MACKENZIE:  No, not at all.  Well, my lord, with your  lordship's comments I don't know how to take that.  But just in summary, your lordship is correct, we  don't agree --  No, I said I'm sure you're grateful and your friend  said you had them all.  MACKENZIE:  Well, we are grateful, my lord, but we don't  have them all.  And even if we did have them, they  weren't disclosed to us as being documents relied on  by Dr. Mills.  But having said that, we do have them  now because they are in the books.  RUSSELL:  My lord, we will deal with it in  cross-examination, and if there is prejudice then  clearly that will arise at that time.  We will deal  with it at that time.  Thank you.  say there is no prejudice.  COURT:  THE COURT  MR  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  With respect,  We will see.  Yes, you will,  Thank you.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH CONT'D: 12999  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Now, directing your attention, Dr. Mills, back to your  2 opinion.  I had referred you to page 114 of your  3 opinion yesterday, and I direct your attention to that  4 page today.  I would like to ask you in reference to  5 Wet'suwet'en houses and Wet'suwet'en clans, what is  6 your opinion as to the -- as to which of the clan or  7 house is most frequently referred to as an identifying  8 marker for the Wet'suwet'en?  9 A   The clan is used as the identifying marker more often  10 than house by the Wet'suwet'en.  11 Q   And when we use the term "identifying marker", what do  12 you mean by that?  13 A  When you ask a person "Who are you?" they are likely  14 to identify themselves by their English name, if they  15 have a chiefly name the chiefly name, and then their  16 clan first.  17 Q   Okay.  And then?  18 A   Then they might give the house.  But they would give  19 the clan name typically before the house name.  20 MR. RUSH:  All right.  Now, may I turn your attention, please,  21 to page 117 of your opinion.  22 THE COURT:  Before you do that, I am constantly find myself  23 surprised by the meanings of the terms after all this  24 time, but on page 115 you talk about "The merger of  25 the Owl and Sun House".  I may have heard of that  26 before, but I'm not sure that I have.  What is that,  27 the second line on page 115?  28 THE WITNESS:  There were at one time two separate Laksamshu  29 houses called the Owl and the Sun House respectively  30 translated into English.  And at that time when there  31 were so many epidemics of diseases that were reducing  32 the population, these two houses merged into one  33 house, that is to say they began to occupy one house  34 rather than two houses.  And, in fact, not only were  35 these two houses within this one clan merged, but  36 eventually the Tsayu clan merged with the Laksamshu  37 clan at the time when the population was lowest into  38 one single house, one single physician building as  39 well, a long house for the summer salmon fishing.  40 THE COURT:  What is that house or clan called now?  41 THE WITNESS:  The people still recognize that they are two —  42 they are two separate clans, the Beaver clan and the  43 Laksamshu clan.  4 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  45 THE WITNESS:  And now they sometimes differentiate between the  46 two houses.  As they grew larger in population then in  47 fact one of the houses, the Owl House has not really 13000  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  been very well populated.  It's been sort of dwindling  and is being re-absorbed again into the single house,  the Owl and Sun House.  COURT:  Are they plaintiffs?  WITNESS:  Yes.  RUSH:  Yes, they are.  COURT:  Under what name?  WITNESS: The Sun House name is Smogelgem and the Owl House  is Kloumkhun.  COURT:  Kloumkhun?  WITNESS: Yes.  COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  RUSH:  Would you just turn to page 111 where you list the  clans and their house.  211?  THE  THE  MR.  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT:  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  111.  You've drawn our attention to this earlier, Dr.  Mills, but under Laksamshu you identify as the Owl  house the Wet'suwet'en name of Medziyax and Sayax for  the Sun House and those are the --  That's right.  And those are the two names that you are referring to?  That's right.  And you indicate there parenthetically that the two  have been amalgamated?  Yes.  And are those houses plaintiffs?  Laksamshu and  Sayax, are they plaintiffs, Mr. Rush, or are they by  chiefs' names?  By chiefs' names.  All right.  Thank you.  And the explanation, Dr. Mills, in part, is that set  out -- the explanation which you've just given to his  lordship in part, is that set out on page 115?  Yes, it is .  And that's 115 of your opinion for the record.  Now,  Dr. Mills, I would ask you to look at page 117 of your  opinion and table 4 under the name and title "Number  Of Feast Names Currently Held By The Wet'suwet'en  According To House & Clan".  Can you explain to his  lordship what this table is intended to show?  Table 4 indicates the number of feast names or  hereditary titles that are being held or in use today  or at the time that I wrote this report and compares  it with the number of hereditary titles that were  listed -- that was listed by Jenness for the period of 13001  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 1924, '25.  2 Q   Okay.  And the -- those listed by Jenness, are they  3 contained in his 1943 monograph?  4 A   That's correct.  5 Q   And the names that are currently held or were at the  6 time of the writing of your opinion, from what source  7 did you derive those names to come to these numbers?  8 A   Right.  I arrived at the titles that are currently  9 held from interviews.  I also drew on research that  10 had been done previously.  I think this was -- much of  11 this work was at a tab that was indicated yesterday  12 just before --  13 Q   In the document book that you were shown?  14 A   In the document book.  15 Q   Now, can you tell his lordship what the relationship  16 is of the number of names listed by Jenness and the  17 number listed by you.  And by way of clarification,  18 are names that are contained in your list also  19 contained in Jenness' or not?  20 A  Most of the titles that were mentioned by Jenness are  21 still in use today.  All of the head chiefs of houses  22 are in use and the sort of second in command titles  23 are all in use as well.  There are a few titles that  24 Jenness mentioned which are open today.  They are  25 still considered part of the corpus of names, but no  26 one is holding them currently.  And, obviously, there  27 are more names being used now than in 1924, '25.  This  2 8 comes from a corpus of names which were extent in the  29 memories or the minds of the Wet'suwet'en as names  30 they recalled their relatives having held in the past,  31 and they are passing these names on today.  I would  32 like to point out it looks like there is a significant  33 change in the number of names being used.  If you  34 notice that this corresponds to the change in  35 population so that in 1924, '25 there was very  36 slightly a larger percentage of the population held  37 names than in 1987, but it is basically comparable.  38 Q   So there is a correspondence between the number of  39 names held today and the size of the Wet'suwet'en  40 population?  41 A   That's correct.  42 Q   And are the names that are -- that you've numbered  43 here, gathered together and listed here, are they  44 chiefs' names and what type of names are these?  45 A   The Wet'suwet'en use the term in English useful chiefs  46 names for all of the hereditary titles, but they also  47 distinguish between the names that are held by the 13002  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 heads of the houses and the second in command.  The  2 heads of the houses are the most important hereditary  3 titles, and the second in command are considered the  4 second most important, and the other names as less  5 important.  However, they often refer to them in  6 English as chiefly titles for the whole corpus of  7 names.  Often they will use the term sub-chief for the  8 second in command chiefs, that's a usage that's often  9 employed as well.  10 Q   Okay.  Is there a Wet'suwet'en word for the word  11 "name"?  You refer to chiefly name.  Is there a  12 Wet'suwet'en word for that?  13 A  Well, there is two kinds of names.  Yesterday we  14 mentioned denizee which means a person who holds a  15 title, that's how it is used.  There is also a word  16 boozee which means name, title.  17 Q   And boozee, how would you spell that?  I think  18 yesterday we ventured a spelling for denizee.  19 A   It occurs most often in transcripts as B-O-O-Z-E-E,  20 but it has received a variety of different spellings.  21 Q   Now, are crests related to chiefly titles or names?  22 A   Yes, they are.  A title is often associated with one  23 or more crests.  24 Q   And what would be an example?  25 A  Well, for example, the sun is associated with the name  26 Smogelgem.  The caribou with the title Dzeeh.  27 Q   Is that D-Z-E-E-H?  28 A   That's correct.  29 Q   Now, I just ask you, if you will, to review pages 100  30 to 117 of your opinion.  And do these pages deal with  31 your description and your opinion regarding the  32 institution of houses, clans and numbers of names?  33 A   They do.  On page 104 I have stated that:  34  35 "The Tsayu is the only clan that has a  36 Wet'suwet'en name."  37  38 And after reading the testimony of Dr. James Kari I  39 recognize now that the Gilseryhu is also of  40 proto-Athapaskan origin, but basically Wet'suwet'en  41 origin.  42 Q   Now, I want to ask you, please, to look at volume 1 of  43 tab 1.  Excuse me, volume 1, tab 5.  Would you please  44 review this tab.  Now, is this the source of some of  45 the information that you relied upon for the purposes  46 of arriving at your opinion regarding clans, houses  47 and names among the Wet'suwet'en? 13003  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  THE COURT  14  THE WITNE  15  16  17  MR. RUSH:  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  A  40  THE COURT  41  MR. RUSH:  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  A  It is some of the material.  All right.  And these -- are these notes that you  prepared, in part?  Yes, I see there are two exceptions.  There are a few  handwritten pages in the hand of Heather Harris.  Are those found about seven pages along?  Yes.  And under the name of Henry Wilson, March 29, '85?  That's correct.  There are three pages there.  Those are notes of  Heather Harris, are they?  Yes, they are.  :  They are notes of Heather Harris?  3S:  Yes.  And I also note that towards the end, five  pages from the end there is a page that is in the hand  of Victor Jim.  In the hand of Victor Jim.  Was that given to you by  Victor Jim?  Yes, it is marked Thursday, May 9th.  All right.  Leaving aside those two, are the other  notes that are found at this tab notes which you took  and typed?  Yes.  And were they done on the dates that are indicated  where indicated?  Yes.  And of the people that are indicated there?  Yes.  And these notes were taken by you?  Yes.  And there is a handwritten note the third one along,  are those notes in your hand?  Yes.  And third from the back appears to be notes and  genealogy with regard -- well, at least with the name  of Gordon Hall, Gyologet, G-Y-O-L-O-G-E-T, is that in  your hand?  Yes, it is second from the end of mine.  :  Yes, second in mine too.  Now, the notes that were taken by you and are notes of  yours, do the notes accurately record the information  which you had received from the persons that you were  speaking to, the hereditary chiefs that you were  talking to?  Yes. 13004  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. RUSH:  Okay.  My lord, I would ask that we can take out the  two pieces that are not Dr. Mills, and I would like to  have the balance marked as the next exhibit.  COURT:  All right.  On the same basis as we discussed  yesterday this will be exhibit --  REGISTRAR:  921.  COURT:  921.  REGISTRAR:  Tab 5 of book one.  MACKENZIE:  My lord, I think these are also part of the  documents we got Monday morning.  COURT:  Thank you.  RUSH:  Now, my lord, do you want to extract the two portions  which are not in Dr. Mills --  COURT:  Yes, where were these again?  RUSH:  They are about seven along, handwritten notes of  Henry Wilson and the second from the back -- I'm  sorry, it's about the fourth from the back Victor Jim,  just take those out.  I would ask that the rest be  marked.  THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  I'm not sure — the one that's  being taken out is one marked Thursday, May 9th?  RUSH:  Yes.  COURT:  Just that one page?  RUSH:  Yes.  COURT:  Thank you.  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  (EXHIBIT 921:  Mills)  Tab 5, Plaintiff's Book I, Notes by A.  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  Q  Dr. Mills, as well in the determination  with regard to names and clans, did you  the work of Jenness 1933 and 1934, Monog  Jenness?  I did.  Did you also rely upon or refer to the t  interviews with hereditary chiefs betwee  1983 that you said you had reviewed yest  I did.  I would like you to please look into vo  exhibits -- please refer to tab 16 in vo  16 is marked as Exhibit 910.  Yes.  And tab 17 is Exhibit 909. And if you'1  the interview transcripts which are cont  19, 20, 21, 22, 23, just up to 23, I am  of your work  also rely on  raphs of  ranscripts of  n 1981 and  erday?  lume 2 to  lume 2.  Tab  1 just look at  ained in tabs  going to ask 13005  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  you as well if in respect of those particular  transcripts of Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs whether  or not you've referred to them and relied on them in  part in respect of your opinion regarding clans,  houses and names, numbers of names of Wet'suwet'en  chiefs?  A   I did.  I also used the larger corpus of Wet'suwet'en  transcribed --  Q   But in respect of these ones, you can identify these  ones as ones that you had referred to and relied on  for the purposes of your opinion?  A   Yes.  MR. RUSH:  My lord, 16 is marked, 17 is marked.  18 I would like  to have marked as the next exhibit, Mary George  interviewed by Alfred Joseph April 23, '81.  THE COURT:  That will be 922.  THE REGISTRAR:  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  922.  MR. RUSH  THE  (EXHIBIT 922:  Tab 18, Plaintiff's Book II, Mary  George Interview, April 23, 1981)  RUSH:  Tab 19 is Moses David interviewed by Leonard George  on July 26, 1982.  COURT:  92 3.  MACKENZIE:  And I reserve the right to object to that  because I say that we were not provided with that or  provided with the information that that was something  that Dr. Mills relied upon.  COURT:  That relies just to tab 18?  MACKENZIE:  Tab 19, my lord.  COURT:  Yes.  Your lordship knows my view on that question.  Well, you say it was furnished some time ago.  I say that it was furnished -- I say it was furnished  on November 10, 1988.  Now, you are not in a position to respond to that?  MACKENZIE:  I can't respond to that, my lord.  We were not  advised that Dr. Mills was relying on that.  It was a letter disclosed on November the 10th  listing all of these, and if my friends refer to that  I think they can agree with me.  The exhibit number,  Madam Registrar?  REGISTRAR:  Number 19 will be 923.  (EXHIBIT 923:  Tab 19, Plaintiff's Book II, Moses  David Interview, July 26, 1982)  RUSH:  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT: 13006  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, there were a large number of interviews  2 disclosed just before the cross-examinations on  3 affidavit a week or ten days before.  4 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, cross-examination of the affidavits on  5 the territorial --  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  In Smithers.  7 THE COURT:  Territorial affidavits?  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's correct, my lord.  9 THE COURT:  Of Leonard George?  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, my lord, Leonard George was not one of the  11 people that was cross-examined.  12 THE COURT:  Just generally?  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  Just generally there was a massive disclosure,  14 and understandably we concentrated on the people whose  15 cross-examinations were coming up the next day.  16 Anyway, that may be a part of the explanation for my  17 friend's comments but I will have to check to see if  18 this was in that large group that came in.  19 THE COURT:  Well, I'm marking it for the purposes that have been  20 described.  I think that I should do so because Mr.  21 Rush says that it was furnished and Mr. Mackenzie  22 can't say that it was not.  But I think I have, for  23 want of a better term, a reverse fairness problem here  24 and that is that if I don't rule on the matter then  25 defense won't know whether they can cross-examine on  26 it or not.  If they are going to cross-examine on it  27 they would, of course, be waiving their right to  28 object to it.  I think this is one of those cases  29 where unlike simple litigation a failure to provide  30 this might preclude its use at all.  The exchange of  31 information is so voluminous if this was omitted from  32 a mass of disclosure then I do not think that that  33 would cause it to be excluded partly because of the  34 fact that it relates to the general subject of the  35 witness' very exstensive report and is a weight chip  36 in the total matrix of fact and documents that were  37 relied on by this witness.  And I think even if it was  38 not included I would think that I would allow it in  39 evidence at this trial for the purposes that have been  40 discussed.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, did you wish me to continue or ask your  42 lordship for an indication of your lordship's view as  43 to whether I should continue to object to the other  44 documents that come up that are subject to the same  45 concern of non-disclosure?  46 THE COURT:  Well, I think that's a matter that you will have to  47 decide for yourself, Mr. Mackenzie.  If you have an 13007  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  objection as such I would be glad to hear it, but I  don't think that this trial can be diverted by these  kinds of problems.  I say so with full knowledge that  I may be doing unfairness to the defense, but I also  have the feeling that I may be doing unfairness to the  plaintiffs if I ruled otherwise.  I think in view of the nature of this case that I  must continue to rule on the side of admissibility.  It may be that an accumulation of these matters may  lead me to think that the fairness is tilted the other  way.  I don't have that view at the moment.  I think  that with the effort that has been put into this case  by the defense that they are able to deal with this  kind of thing even if this document or a small number  of similar documents were not disclosed.  Mr. Rush.  Well, my lord, as I said my transfer letter indicates  tab 19 was conveyed to my learned friends on November  the 8th -- excuse me, November 10, 1988.  :  Yes.  I would like to move now to tab 20.  This is  described as Moses David interviewed by Leonard George  on April 5, 1981.  I would like that to be the next  exhibit.  :  924.  (EXHIBIT 924:  Tab 20, Plaintiff's Book II, Moses  David Interview, April 5, 1982)  MR. RUSH:  21, I would like this to be the next exhibit.  It is  Sarah Tait interviewed by Herb Nikal, N-I-K-A-L,  interviewed February 23, 1981.  MR. MACKENZIE:  I have the same objection to that, but I  understand your lord has --  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. RUSH:  And my transfer letter indicates that it was conveyed  to them on November 15, 1988.  THE COURT:  Exhibit 925.  (EXHIBIT 925:  Tab 21, Plaintiff's Book II, Sarah Tait  Interview, February 23, 1981)  MR. RUSH:  And tab 22, please, William Simms, S-I-M-M-S,  September 4, 1981.  THE COURT:  92 6.  THE REGISTRAR: 926.  (EXHIBIT 926:  Tab 22, Plaintiff's Book II, William  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT 1300?  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  Simms Interview, September 4, 1981)  MR. RUSH:  And 23, John Namox interviewed by Alfred Joseph March  17, 1982.  MR. MACKENZIE:  The same objection to that, my lord.  THE COURT:  92 7.  THE REGISTRAR:  927.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. RUSH:  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  A  Q  A  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  Q  (EXHIBIT 927:  Tab 23, Plaintiff's Book II, John Namox  Interview, March 17, 1982)  And with respect to that my transfer letters indicate  that there were two ways in which this interview was  conveyed to my friends by letters, two letters of  September 8, 1987.  Thank you.  Dr. Mills, please turn to page 119 of your opinion.  And at page 119 you make reference to "Wet'suwet'en  Feast Names".  And what is your opinion about the  relationship of Wet'suwet'en feast names to the  institutions of the Wet'suwet'en?  Wet'suwet'en feast names are intrical to the  institutions of Wet'suwet'en.  They are the names that  designate the heads of the houses who are recognized  in the feast hall and whose titles give them title to  territories as well.  And at tab 5 which is found at pages 122 to 123 you  set out the head chiefs and sub-chiefs of Wet'suwet'en  houses by clan and that's the heading of table 5.  Oh, table 5.  Yes.  Not tab 5.  I'm sorry.  :  Which page?  This is page 121.  :  Yes.  And I wonder if you can just explain to his lordship  what appears to be the structure of this.  You see the  table indicates the clan by Wet'suwet'en or crest name  and then the name of the house and the name thereunder  of the house chief, the Wet'suwet'en and present  holder of the name and then the sub-chiefs under that  house; is that correct?  That's correct.  And I wonder if you would just take his lordship  through this table to indicate from your present 13009  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 knowledge who the present holders of some of these  2 names are if they are different from what the table  3 indicates.  4 A   Yes.  Some of the head chiefs and sub-chiefs have  5 passed on since I made this report and their names  6 have been passed on, the hereditary titles have been  7 passed on as well.  On page 121 under Owl House I have  8 listed Johnny Mack who is deceased, and his title has  9 been taken by Patrick Pierre.  10 Q   Yes.  11 A   On page 122 under Anaskaski which is also sometimes  12 referred to as the Grizzly House.  13 Q   And that is spelled A-N-A-S-K-A-S-K-I?  14 A   George Naziel who was the former holder of the head  15 chief name Madeek --  16 Q   M-A-D-E-E-K.  17 A   -- has also passed on and the title has been passed  18 onto Jimmy Brown.  19 THE COURT:  Jimmy?  2 0    THE WITNESS:  Jimmy Brown.  21 MR. RUSH:  22 Q   Yes.  23 A   Peter Alfred who held the name Kanots, a sub-chief in  24 the same house, has also passed on and the title  25 Kanots has been passed on to Freddy Joseph.  26 Q   Kanots is K-A-N-O-T-S.  Yes, are there any other names  27 which have been passed onto new holders?  28 A   On the page 123 -- I'm sorry, page 122 Sylvester  29 William who held the title Hag Wii Negh has also  30 passed on, and that title has been passed onto Ron  31 Mitchell.  32 Q   And so far as the name that appears on page 123 under  33 the Birchbark House sub-chief Satsan, there is no name  34 beside that.  To your knowledge has there been a  35 successor to that name?  36 A  At present that title has not been officially  37 conferred to anyone.  It was the title that was held  38 by the late David Dennis, and the people of the  39 Gilserhyu are still considering and have not yet  40 formally announced who it is going to be passed onto.  41 Q   Gilserhyu is G-I-L-S-E-R-H-Y-U.  I want to direct your  42 attention back to page 121 and back to the Tsayu,  43 T-S-A-Y-U, or the Beaver Clan and the indication that  44 you have that sub-chief -- that Namox is a sub-chief  45 in this house.  You previously drew our attention when  46 you were discussing clans and houses to the fact that  47 there were two houses under the Beaver Clan.  Can you 13010  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 explain the indication here of Namox as a sub-chief?  2 A   Yes.  As I began explaining before, the Tsayu has been  3 increasing in population, Tsayu Clan.  And they are in  4 the period of transition where two houses seem to be  5 emerging.  One of them I think is listed in the list  6 of houses as Wilat, but Wilat and Namox are part of  7 the same house.  8 Q   Can you just pause there.  Wilat, W-I-L-A-T, and  9 Namox, N-A-M-O-X.  Go ahead, Dr. Mills.  10 A   So at present Namox is being considered as -- is  11 beginning to be considered as a separate house, but it  12 is in the position of transition.  So sometimes it is  13 called a separate house and sometimes a sub-chief  14 within the Tsayu House.  It receives both treatments.  15 Q   Now, what, if anything, Dr. Mills, is the relationship  16 of the chiefly names to the territories of the  17 Wet'suwet'en?  18 A   The head chief of each of the houses is the person who  19 is considered responsible for the administration of  20 the territory for saying who can go there and how the  21 resources on the territory should be harvested.  And  22 typically one or more sub-chiefs within the house is  23 also designated as the person who is the steward of a  24 particular area.  25 Q   In terms of your observations at the feasts you  26 attended, in terms of the seating at the feasts, are  27 you able to say what the seating indicates about the  28 importance of the head and sub-chiefs of the houses?  29 A   Yes, the seating at the feasts is very fixed and the  30 head chiefs of the houses are given the seats at the  31 centre of their clan so that all the head chiefs of  32 the three houses, typically three houses within a  33 clan, sit together at the back of the area where their  34 clan is being seated.  They are referred to as the  35 head push in English.  36 Q   Is it possible, Dr. Mills, from your review of the  37 chiefly names of the Wet'suwet'en to determine the  38 antiquity of those names?  39 A  Well, as I indicated earlier some of the Wet'suwet'en  40 chiefly names such as Goohlaht and Woos and Smogelgem,  41 Satsan and the kungax in a situation that positions  42 them in the distant past long, long before contact.  43 Q   Those names are spelled G-O-O-H-L-A-H-T.  I am  44 spelling them in order for you, Madam Reporter.  Woos,  45 W-O-O-S, Smogelgem, S-M-O-G-E-L-G-E-M, Satsan,  46 S-A-T-S-A-N and the reference to Kungax is  47 K-U-N-G-A-X.  I would like you to refer, please, Dr. 13011  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Mills, to page 125.  And at the end of the first full  2 paragraph you say, and I quote:  3 "The Wet'suwet'en system does not have the  4 hereditary rigidity of European aristocratic  5 systems; to acquire a high name one must  6 show oneself capable and respond positively  7 to the rigorous training given from early  8 childhood."  9  10 On what do you base that?  11 A   On the descriptions that have been given to me by  12 Wet'suwet'en people of the training that they received  13 on the land claims transcripts, and Jenness also has  14 written an article 1929.  15 Q   And you refer in the next full paragraph under the  16 heading "The Importance Of Birth, Re-Birth and  17 Marriage to Assuming a Title" to the training that you  18 were told about by Mable Forsyth?  19 A   I do.  20 Q   I ask you if you will, please, to look at page 128.  21 The top of the page you give the opinion:  22  23 "Although the system values the achievements  24 of individuals, taking a feast name requires  25 communal recognition of individual merit.  26 Names are bestowed on people by the members  27 of the clan which lost a chief, but to be  28 able to afford a name the incumbents must  29 have the support of their mother's and  30 father's clan, the spouses of their father's  31 clan or Andamanaak..."  32  33 That's spelled A-N-D-A-M-A-N-A-A-K,  34  35 "...and of their own spouse's clan.  With  36 this support they can make..."  37  38 I think the "make" is an unnecessary addition there.  39  40 "...they can put on the necessary feasts to  41 assume a title even if they are not the  42 already designated heir."  43  44 I would ask you again, Dr. Mills, on what is it that  45 you base this conclusion?  46 A   I base this conclusion again on Jenness' work,  47 particularily 1943, on the land claims tapes, on my 13012  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 interviews, on my attendance at numerous Wet'suwet'en  2 feasts and on hearing many conversations about passing  3 on of titles by the Wet'suwet'en.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  Excuse me, my lord, before my friend goes on my  5 friend referred to Mable Forsyth on page 125 and the  6 comment that was made to Dr. Mills.  Is my friend  7 going to advise whether that is contained in one of  8 the interviews or notes that we have?  9 MR. RUSH:  I don't believe it is, but thank you for pointing  10 that out to me.  11 THE COURT:  Where is that on page 125?  12 MR. RUSH:  Yes, it's the last paragraph, my lord.  I think Mr.  13 Mackenzie is referring to the reference to Mable  14 Forsyth where attributed to her is the quote, and I am  15 quoting from the second sentence:  16  17 "Children are 'groomed' to be chiefs, and  18 'drilled in the feast system,' the  19 Wet'suwet'en commonly say."  20  21 Now, the reference to Mable Forsyth here, Dr. Mills,  22 can you explain to his lordship by what means you came  23 to this information and how you recorded it?  24 A   Yes, I by chance happened to see Mable Forsyth at this  25 particular instance in Hazelton and we had a  26 conversation in which she said these statements.  I  27 didn't write them -- take notes at the time.  It was a  28 conversation that we had when I wasn't anticipating  2 9 having a conversation.  I went home and put them into  30 my report which I was working on at the time.  31 Q   Directly -- were you working by means of a computer?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And was it processed right into your computer system?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And can you give the date that you had that  36 conversation with Mable Forsyth, please?  37 A   That would have been in May '86.  38 Q   Thank you.  And Mable Forsyth, was that someone that  39 you knew as a Wet'suwet'en person from some previous  40 meeting with her?  41 A   I had seen her at enumerable feasts.  One of the  42 things I did at the feasts was note down the people  43 who were in attendance at the feasts.  I asked if they  44 had chiefs names, and I was told that kind of  45 information.  So I knew that about her.  And we may  46 have spoken a bit before, but I think this was the  47 first extended conversation I had with her. 13013  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  MR. RUSH:  37  38  THE COURT  39  MR. RUSH:  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  47  Okay.  And the context of your meeting her in Hazelton  was on a street, in a restaurant, at a church or a  feast?  It was -- she was coming to assist at the  interpreter's course because she is someone who has a  very good command of Wet'suwet'en and English,  particularily Wet'suwet'en.  I happened to meet her  when she was coming for this meeting and so we talked.  All right.  Thank you.  You have identified a belief  among the Wet'suwet'en in reincarnation on page 128 of  your opinion.  And you state in the second full  paragraph:  "The Wet'suwet'en, like the other peoples of  the Northwest coast and the Athapascans in  the interior, believe in reincarnation of  peoples as well as animals.  The  Wet'suwet'en believe that everyone is  reincarnated.  The Wet'suwet'en expect to be  reincarnated into their same House,  following the matrilineal rule in  reincarnation."  Can you tell his lordship, Dr. Mills, if the  Wet'suwet'en belief in reincarnation plays a role in  the taking of names, chiefly names that you have  identified?  Sometimes when a child is born they are recognized at  that point as being a particular person reborn and  they may be given a title that was the title held by  that person.  For example, Johnny David in his  commissioned evidence talked about how he had been  recognized as being Yaybesti.  Again, please?  Yaybesti.  And, my lord, that appears on page 129, and it is  Y-A-Y-B-E-S-T-I.  :  Yes.  Go ahead.  He was recognized as Yaybesti at birth and therefore  given that title which he held for a considerable  amount of time and passed onto someone else when he  took another chief's title.  In other words, it was a  sort of a temporary title that he was holding.  In  another case Bazil Michell in his commissioned  evidence has explained that at birth he was recognized 13014  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 as a particular chief reborn.  That title of the  2 person that he was said to be had been passed onto  3 someone else so that he did not take that title for a  4 number of years.  He eventually did take that title,  5 but then subsequently took on other titles as well.  6 In other words, the chiefly titles of the person one  7 is said to have been in a past life does not restrict  8 you to only taking those titles.  There is not felt to  9 be any requirement that you do take the titles held by  10 the person that you were identified as being in a  11 previous life, but there is a tendency for the person  12 to have those names or to expect to acquire them.  13 Q   Dr. Mills, I'm going to read from a brief portion of  14 the commission evidence of Bazil Michell which is  15 Exhibit 71-A entered as an exhibit on June 26, '86.  16 And under questioning by Ms. Mandell the following was  17 said:  18  19 "Q    Were you given the name Kawahcan..."  20  21 Here spelled K-A-W-A-H-C-A-N.  22  23 "...as a baby because you were Kawahcan in  24 your last life?  25 A     Yes, I was told I was Kawahcan before I was  26 born.  27 Q     Bazil, do you remember who told you you were  28 Kawahcan before you were born?  2 9                  A     I was told by my mom and dad.  30 Q     Who had the name Kawahcan before you were  31 given that feast name?  32 A     Maxam Tom held the name before I received  33 it."  34  35 Is that the reference to the commission evidence of  36 Bazil Michell which you have directed his lordship?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Page 7, volume 1 of the Exhibit 71-A.  Now, Dr. Mills,  39 I would like to direct your attention to the last  40 sentence on page 128, that is to say the last sentence  41 of the full paragraph of page 128 where in quote you  42 say:  43  44 "In 93% or 25 of the 27 cases for which I  45 have the relevant information, the  46 recognized reincarnate nature has returned  47 to the same House." 13015  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2 Now, my lord, this was the sentence which in  3 discussion with Dr. Mills became apparent that these  4 notes were required.  They were sent forward and  5 obtained and they were disclosed yesterday to my  6 learned friends.  Now, Dr. Mills, I want to direct  7 your attention to this.  If you could just explain how  8 it was that you came by the information which is  9 contained or which gives rise to the opinion expressed  10 in the sentence I have just read.  11 A  At the time that I wrote this report I had done  12 research on apparently 27 cases in which the  13 Wet'suwet'en identified a particular person as being  14 someone reborn.  And in those 27 cases I -- no, I'm  15 sorry, I say 28 cases.  And in 27 of those cases I had  16 the information about what house the individuals  17 belonged to, the person who was said to be  18 reincarnated and the person that they were said to  19 have been, and from that data was able to discern that  20 93 per cent of these 27 present cases they were in the  21 same house or matriline.  22 Q   Have you done more investigations about reincarnation  23 and reincarnation into the houses of the Wet'suwet'en  24 since the preparation of this opinion?  25 A   Yes, I have.  26 Q   Okay.  And can you -- do you recall the number, the  27 additional numbers of further research of instances of  28 research of reincarnation which you have done?  29 A   I think I have at present 44 instances of  30 reincarnation cited by Wet'suwet'en, I have them  31 listed on my paper which is listed on my curriculum  32 vitae which we have disclosed.  33 Q   All right.  Thank you.  Dr. Mills, can you say if  34 there is any significance attached to the relationship  35 of the reincarnation instances into the same house and  36 the relationship of the house to the territory?  37 A   Yes.  The Wet'suwet'en think that one of the reasons  38 that people come back in the same house over and over  39 again is because they are the same people coming back  4 0 time and time again.  They have the same kind of  41 identity that continues life after life, and it is an  42 identity that includes an identification with a  43 territory so that in cases where people do not  44 necessarily specifically know who they were in a past  45 life they assume that they were someone in a past  46 life.  They commonly have an experience of deja vu or  47 recognizing territory when they first go there, and 13016  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 they explain that by saying:  "This is not the first  2 time I've been here.  I've been here in a previous  3 life or in many previous lives."  4 Q   Was the belief in reincarnation one also noted by  5 Jenness in his work?  6 A   Yes, it is.  7 Q   And in pages 128 through to 130 do you set out other  8 instances of examples of reincarnation?  9 A   Yes, I do.  10 Q   All right.  I would like to direct your attention, Dr.  11 Mills, to the top of page 132.  And here under the  12 title "The Continuing Evolution Of Wet'suwet'en Feast  13 Names,"  you say at the bottom of the page in the last  14 sentence of the page, and I'm quoting:  15  16 "The Wet'suwet'en have adopted public titles  17 and made it the heart of their system from  18 their earlier history, which is indeed  19 ancient history."  20  21 And that is page 132 over to 133 of your opinion.  I  22 would like to ask you what do you mean here by "public  23 titles"?  I would ask you particularily to direct your  24 attention to the word "public".  25 A   These titles of the chiefs are conferred at feasts so  26 that everyone can witness who has taken the title and  27 make it known both to all of the Wet'suwet'en who are  28 in attendance.  Typically there are other neighbouring  29 peoples who attend each feast and witness the  30 succession of names.  It's considered very important  31 to the Wet'suwet'en that this be acknowledged publicly  32 and passed on at a feast, that's how they are  33 conferred.  They are very much public titles.  They  34 are announced at this public gathering, and it is this  35 announcement at a feast which is considered the  36 validation of a person having taken a name.  37 Q   And by "heart of their system", and that's a quote  38 from that sentence, what do you mean by that?  39 A   Basic to the Wet'suwet'en institutions or social  40 structure is the concept that people take these names,  41 that the highest names are the ones that are in charge  42 of specific fishing sites and specific territories.  43 So it regulates how the people use their land, how  44 they organize their lives.  It is essential to their  45 way of life, to their social structure.  4 6 Q   All right.  And you say as well, and I quote "from  47 their earlier history", and what do you mean by that? 13017  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A  We have from the kungax the example of Goohlaht  2 becoming a public title and the very earliest village  3 making a totem pole to designate this is his heir  4 building a house.  And the other mentions of chiefly  5 titles from the kungax position these chiefs' names  6 from very early times.  For example, Woos, Satsan, et  7 cetera.  8 Q   Thank you.  On page 132 in the second paragraph of  9 that page you say:  10  11 "About seventy-five or eighty per cent of  12 the Wet'suwet'en chief's names come from the  13 Gitksan or Tsimshian language, a fact also  14 noted by Morice and Jenness."  15  16 Perhaps I should just read on a little further.  17 Continuing the quote:  18  19 "Other feast names come from incidents, both  20 hostile and friendly, with the other  21 neighbouring people, the Haisla, the Nishga  22 or the Babine or Eastern Carrier, while some  23 while some the Wet'suwet'en have created  24 themselves."  25  26 Now, I would like to direct your attention first to  27 the statement that "seventy-five or eighty per cent of  28 Wet'suwet'en chief names come from the Gitksan or  29 Tsimshian language."  I wonder if you can comment on  30 that.  31 A   This was the perception of Jenness and Morice and it  32 is -- I had the impression that many Wet'suwet'en  33 think that that is an accurate figure of what  34 percentage of the chiefly titles come from Gitksan.  35 However, further linguistic work indicates that a lot  36 of the Wet'suwet'en chiefly titles are indeed in  37 proto-Athabascan in early, early Wet'suwet'en language  38 so that the people can't break down the words into  39 their meanings.  And when they can't they tend to  40 assume that the meaning comes from a foreign language,  41 the Gitksan language, because they are aware that some  42 titles did indeed come from the Gitksan language and  43 were conferred by the Gitksan.  So they tend to think  44 that the ones whose meaning they can't decipher  45 because it is very ancient language and there has been  46 a lot of change-over from the century of language  47 derived from a Tsimshian source when in fact they 1301?  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 don't necessarily derive from that source.  2 Q   You said "further linguistic work" and what did you  3 mean by that?  4 A  Well, I am referring to the work of James Kari and  5 Bruce Rigsby, two linguists who are each proficient,  6 one in Wet'suwet'en and one in Gitksan.  7 Q   Are you able to -- are you able to say as you have  8 heard of what percentage of the Wet'suwet'en chiefs  9 names are taken from the Gitksan or Tsimshian language  10 now having considered Kari and Rigsby's work?  11 A   I am not aware that they have mentioned a figure, so  12 therefore I wouldn't venture.  13 MR. RUSH:  Okay.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, was my friend going to ask Dr. Mills  15 which work of Bruce Rigsby or James Kari Dr. Mills is  16 referring to, please?  17 MR. RUSH:  18 Q   Yes.  Dr. Mills, you indicate further information  19 garnered from Messrs. Dr. Kari and Rigsby.  Can you  20 explain what you are referring to there?  21 A   I'm referring to work which appears in their opinion  22 report.  23 Q   And have you considered their evidence, the evidence  24 which Dr. Kari has given in testimony?  25 A   Yes, I have read it.  26 THE COURT:  Can you quantify it in a general way?  27 THE WITNESS:  No, I wouldn't like to be inaccurate.  I didn't  28 note that Dr. Kari gave an exact figure, and he is in  29 the position to give one rather than me.  30 THE COURT:  He didn't give an exact figure?  31 THE WITNESS: I don't recall that he did.  32 THE COURT:  I don't either.  You think it is now less than 75 or  33 80?  34 THE WITNESS: Yes.  35 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, I am sorry to interrupt my  37 friend, but I am going to have to rise from now on  38 whenever Dr. Mills starts to give archaeological and  39 linguistic evidence which is clearly not within her  40 expertise by her own admission.  41 MR. RUSH:  Well, I think it is pretty clear from both the  42 qualification and methodology approach taken by  43 anthropologists that these other disciplines or  44 aspects of disciplines are taken into account in  45 evaluating people under study.  46 THE COURT:  I will hear your objections, Mr. Mackenzie.  It  47 seems to be accepted by the anthropologists that I 13019  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  have heard thus far that they do regard learning in  other specific disciplines as part of their stock in  trade.  They do rely on what other people tell them  and what they read from related disciplines.  I  certainly think linguistics and archaeology are  related disciplines, but it may be that in a specific  situation there will be room for objection and you  should feel free to make your objection as you may  wish.  Mr. Rush.  Thank you, my lord.  The passage that I have directed  your attention to in the middle of the page of 132  suggests -- indicates more than suggests, indicates  names that have been acquired from sources -- from  other sources and you indicate some of the ones there.  Can you just indicate, Dr. Mills, what are the ways in  which names are acquired, and if you could just set  out some of those ways.  Yes.  One of the ways that new or chiefly names are  acquired into the Wet'suwet'en system is through  intermarriage with peoples of other nations, for  example the Gitksan.  This is a process that is  ongoing today.  We have an instance which I set out on  page 137 and 138 of my report of one being given in  post contact time, and I think that we can presume  that this was a mechanism that was taking place for a  very, very long time.  That process of acquiring names through intermarriage?  Back and forth, yes, through intermarriage.  All right.  Are there other ways in which -- well, you  indicate other ways in which this occurs.  Page 138  you refer to "thanks for help or services rendered"?  That's right.  A person can be gifted a title or crest  because they have assisted someone.  In the commission  evidence of Bazil Michell we have an instance of that  well recorded.  Names are also given by compensation  or by way of making peace between peoples, and also  warfare victories may be celebrated by taking names  and crests, particularily crests.  I will just come back to that, Dr. Mills, in just a  moment.  On page 139 you cite Jenness 1943 and as well  Barbeau 1929:82-83.  I just point out, my lord, that  these two sources have already been referred to in the  evidence and exhibited; the Jenness source being at  tab 24 of volume 1, and the Barbeau reference is at  tab 34 of volume 3.  :  I haven't found Barbeau yet. 13020  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  MR.  RUSH:  2  3  THE  COURT  4  5  MR.  RUSH:  6  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  RUSH:  9  Q  10  11  12  13  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  A  39  MR.  RUSH:  40  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  RUSH:  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  RUSH:  45  Q  46  47  Barbeau is on page 140.  The quote starts on the  bottom of 139.  :  Oh, yes, thank you.  And what is this volume for  Barbeau?  It is tab 34 and the page is 84 and 83 are contained  at tab 34 for your lordship's reference.  :  Thank you.  You make reference to "Titles Received as  Compensation" on page 140 of your opinion, and you  make reference to Chief Maxlaxlex as he explained in  his commission.  Can you just indicate what was the  example that Chief Maxlaxlex, M-A-X-M-A-X-L-E-X, that  is to say Johnny David what did he give?  This is a very interesting example because Johnny  David was giving an example which he knew of from his  education as a Wet'suwet'en in the oral tradition  which has also been recorded by Jenness.  And in this  particular instance a party of Wet'suwet'en who  included some major chiefs such as Gitdumskanees or  Kweese had gone to the Nishga to get oolichan grease.  And after they left this Nishga village which we  identify today as Aiyansh they knocked over a sort of  monument on their way home not recognizing that this  was an important monument to the Nishga.  And when the  Nishga found out about it they were very angry and  came out and killed two of the Wet'suwet'en members of  this party.  But the Nishga themselves recognized that  they were going to have to make some kind of a peace  and that this was an action that they had taken in the  heat of the moment but that you cannot expect to kill  someone and have the situation go unnoticed,  obviously.  And to make peace they held a potlatch and  conferred the title Samaxsam to a Wet'suwet'en  relative of the victim, the chief victim, the one who  had the highest name.  And is that name spelled S-A-M-A-X-S-A-M?  It is.  Thank you.  Now, my lord, this is a portion of the  Johnny David commission which you viewed.  :  Yes.  I'm sure you remember it back last June 26th.  :  Yes, I have it committed to memory.  And it is found at Exhibit 74-B, it is volume 2 of  Johnny David's commission.  The passage which I  believe the witness is referring to, and I will verify 13021  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 this in just a moment, is found at page 6 and runs  2 through to page 9, line 39 at page 6.  I wonder if you  3 can just verify for me, Dr. Mills, that in fact the  4 portion that you rely upon in terms of Johnny David's  5 evidence at commission is this passage that I have  6 just directed the court to.  Just scan over pages 6 to  7 9 of that volume 2 of Johnny David's commission.  8 A   It is.  Yes, that's correct.  9 Q   It thank you.  And at page 141, Dr. Mills, you made  10 reference to "War Victories as Source of Crests" or  11 names were acquired among the Wet'suwet'en.  Can you  12 just indicate what you mean by the war victories and  13 what names you were referring to?  14 A   For example, the raid of Kweese on Kitimat is the  15 source of a number of crests to the Wet'suwet'en.  16 Q   And you identify a number of these crests on page 142.  17 And are the crests associated with names or are there  18 names referred to the particular event that is related  19 in the kungax?  I really threw in two questions there;  20 first the reference to the crest, and secondly the  21 reference to the name.  22 A   The crests are mentioned in the recounting of this  23 victory.  The Wet'suwet'en refer to this, their kungax  24 of this victory, as the source or the origin of these  25 crests.  26 Q   And if you'll just review for me, Dr. Mills, on pages  27 137 through to 143 you set out the -- you set out in  28 your opinion the ways in which names are aquired.  I  29 just would ask you if the sources that you indicate  30 there and the descriptions and opinions given are ones  31 that you adopt?  32 A   I do.  33 Q   I direct your attention now to page 145.  And here in  34 the chapter on the "Transformation of Names" you say,  35 and I quote:  36  37 "What the ada'ok are for the Gitksan the  38 songs are for the Wet'suwet'en.  As the  39 Wet'suwet'en follow the trails to their  40 territories so they to capture the songs  41 that go with their titles to their  42 territories and erupt in song from their  43 deepest visionary travels to the spirit  44 territories of the animals, the salmon and  45 the sky.  The power of the hereditary titles  46 and crests is continually renewed for the  47 Wet'suwet'en by the highly persoanl and 13022  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 individual experience of being captured by a  2 song."  3  4  5 I would like to direct your attention to the last  6 sentence where you say:  7  8 "The power of hereditary titles and crests  9 is continually renewed for the Wet'suwet'en  10 by the highly personal and individual  11 experience of being captured by song."  12  13 What do you mean by that?  14 A   The Wet'suwet'en consider the song as being part of  15 the expression of the importance of spiritual  16 qualities of a title, that titles embody some kind of  17 spiritual quality as well, and another association of  18 that is the associated songs.  And the songs are both  19 sometimes songs that have been passed on for a very  20 long period of time, but the Wet'suwet'en think it  21 equally correct to come to create a new song --  22 Q   Yes.  23 A   -- to express that same title or power.  24 Q   All right.  Now, in terms of -- you've referred us  25 previously in your evidence to song as being kun and  26 you've given various levels of the meaning of song.  27 In what sense are you using the term song now?  28 A   This is part of the interesting aspect of the  29 Wet'suwet'en culture.  The word kun means both song  30 and spirit power so that the song is considered an  31 embodiment or an oral transmission or recognition of  32 that power, too.  So it is part of the public  33 announcing of a name is also the singing of the song.  34 And the songs -- actually one of the other interesting  35 features is that the songs are transmitted to all  36 people.  But also new songs can be created.  And often  37 a holder of a title can ask someone typically from  38 their father's clan to create a new song for that  39 title and that's again another validation of the title  40 in part of the feasting public recognition.  It is  41 sung at the feast and people hear it there.  42 Q   All right.  Now, you refer to the trail of songs.  43 What do you mean by that?  44 A   One of the meanings of kungax as opposed to just plain  45 kun is the trail of song.  And this is a trail which  46 the Wet'suwet'en think links the title to spirit  47 powers that are -- it is connected with it. 13023  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Would you just refer back in your opinion to page 61,  2 please.  And at the bottom of page 61 and over to 62,  3 is that a description by you of the use of the term  4 song or kun on its various levels?  5 A   Yes.  6 MR. RUSH:  Now, I also want to address your --  7 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Mr. Rush, would it be convenient to  8 adjourn now?  9 MR. RUSH:  It could be, yes.  10 THE COURT:  There is one matter I have to look after before I go  11 to the funeral and if we adjourn now it would be far  12 more convenient.  13 MR. RUSH:  All right.  Thank you.  14 THE COURT:  And we will reconvene at 2 o'clock and we will sit  15 until 5?  16 MR. RUSH:  That's what I understand.  17 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  18 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court is adjourned until 2:00.  19 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL 2:00 p.m.)  20  21  22 I hereby certify the foregoing to  23 be a true and accurate transcript  24 of the proceedings herein to the  25 best of my skill and ability.  26  27  2 8    29 LISA FRANKO, OFFICIAL REPORTER  30 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 13024  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 2:00 p.m.)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Ready to proceed, my lord.  4 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Rush.  5  6 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH CONT'D:  7 Q   Dr. Mills, you have your opinion in front of you.  If  8 you will please to turn to page 145.  I had asked you  9 about the paragraph in the middle of the page, and in  10 particular I had asked you in respect of the last  11 two -- I had asked you about the last sentence:  12  13 "The power of hereditary titles and crests  14 is continually renewed for the Wet'suwet'en  15 by the highly personal and individual  16 experience of being captured by song."  17  18 And I wanted to ask you with reference to that if you  19 could exemplify what you mean by the term "experience  20 of being captured by song"?  21 A   I took the term from Johnny David's description of an  22 event that I think is described on page 146.  23 Q   This is taken from the All Clans Feast of April 6,  24 1986?  25 A   Yes.  26 MR. RUSH:  My lord, that feast in note form is exhibited in  27 Exhibit 82.  I have just asked Madam Clerk to obtain a  28 copy of that.  2 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  3 0 MR. RUSH:  31 Q   Go ahead, Dr. Mills.  I was just asking you to  32 exemplify that.  33 A   The term that he used translates best I was told into  34 English as "taken by song" when a person becomes aware  35 that they know a song or the first time sings a song.  36 And the songs are associated with the crests and  37 titles of the Wet'suwet'en.  38 Q   I'm just going to refer you to Exhibit 82 and ask you  39 to look at pages 25 to 26 of that exhibit.  I just  40 asked you if the comments attributed to Johnny David  41 are the ones that you have made reference to in the  42 text of your opinion at page 146.  These are found at  43 the bottom, I think, of page 125 of the text of the  44 Exhibit 82?  45 A   That's correct.  46 Q   And you also refer to comments made by Alfred Joseph  47 in his interrogatory on page 146? 13025  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  A   Yes, I do.  Q   And what did you take from those comments?  What did  you see as the significance contained in Alfred  Joseph's comments?  A  Alfred Joseph said:  "The songs also speak of the territories.  The songs speak of our territory."  Q   And the significance of that in your mind?  A   The songs are linked to the titles and the titles are  associated to a specific territory so a part of the  validation of being a chief is having a song sung.  It  is part of the public manifestation of a person taking  a title that the song is witnessed by the people at  the feast.  It becomes an oral representation of that  person's rights and their having taken a particular  title.  MR. RUSH:  Now, I would like you to look, please, at exhibit or  tab 36 in volume 3.  Tab 36 of volume 3 I want to ask  you if this is the portion of the interrogatory of  Alfred Joseph that you make reference to in your  opinion, and I particularily ask you to look at page  13.  MACKENZIE:  My friend -- I'm sorry, my lord, I am going to  be objecting to reference to this interrogatory answer  and certainly to having it as an exhibit.  COURT:  I'm sorry, is it not already in?  MACKENZIE:  No, my lord.  COURT:  Where do you get the right to put in your own  client's statements, Mr. Rush?  MACKENZIE:  Well, just on the basis that the underlying  facts upon which the witness relied in order to arrive  at a portion of an opinion seems to me if this is the  source of it, and I am entitled to refer the witness  to it.  The fact that it appears in an interrogatory I  think is secondary to the fact that she relied on it.  It could appear anywhere.  I don't -- I put it in not  in order to say anything about the interrogatory per  se, but simply to demonstrate the source of the  knowledge of the witness.  THE COURT:  All right.  If the defendants put it in it would be  admissible for all purposes.  It seems to me that when  you are using it or you are tendering it, Mr. Rush, it  can be received into evidence on the limited basis you  have mentioned.  MR. RUSH:  Well, I don't think I can go much farther than that,  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR. 13026  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  my lord, because I think ultimately the statement on  its face is hearsay.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. RUSH:  But nonetheless it does found the doctor's opinion,  and I think for that purpose it is admissible.  THE COURT:  Well, it explains where she got her opinion from,  that's as far as it goes.  MR. RUSH:  Yes.  THE COURT:  I didn't hear from you, Ms. Koenigsberg?  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I don't think I have anything to add knowing  the purpose that my friend is tendering it for.  THE COURT:  All right.  You are tendering it, Mr. Rush?  MR. RUSH:  Yes, my lord.  THE COURT:  92 8?  MR. RUSH:  It is page 13 of answers to interrogatories of Alfred  Joseph.  THE REGISTRAR:  That will be 928, tab 36.  THE COURT:  Just page 13 of tab 36.  THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  MR. RUSH:  Well, perhaps I should say, my lord, that page 13  really doesn't make any sense in the absence of page  12.  THE COURT:  All right.  MR. RUSH:  Page 1 simply refers it to Alfred Joseph.  THE COURT:  I think for this limited purpose the whole tab  should be in, 928.  (EXHIBIT 928:  Tab 36, Plaintiff's Book III, Answers  to Interrogatories of Alfred Joseph)  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Dr. Mills, will you turn now to pages 135 and 136.  135 and 136?  Yes, my lord.  All right.  And, Dr. Mills, I neglected to ask you earlier, but at  the bottom of page 135 over to 136 there is again  contained a description by you for the possessive form  of the word kun which you describe in the context of  spirit power in the song?  Yes, there is.  Thank you.  All right.  Would you please review pages  119 to 154.  I ask you if you adopt the description  and the underlying facts and opinions set out in those  pages?  I adopt them with a possible proviso that on page 148  I make a statement: 13027  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2 "Having adopted the Gitksan idea of public  3 crests and names, the Wet'suwet'en have  4 become quite inventive in creating new  5 ones."  6  7 I think that probably the best way of perceiving the  8 relationship is not just a simple adoption of a  9 Gitksan set of public crests and names, but the  10 recognition that these two peoples have been living  11 next to each other or near each other for such a long  12 period of time that the -- they have mutually forged a  13 system of making public names and crests, and that it  14 would probably be erroneous to say -- to attribute the  15 origin so exclusively to the Gitksan.  16 Q   All right.  And previously in reviewing a portion of  17 your opinion you drew the court's attention to a  18 passage on page 132, and I wonder if your answer is  19 affected by your -- with reference to the second  20 paragraph, if your answer is affected now by your  21 previous testimony on the subject?  22 A   It is.  23 Q   And that is in reference to the first sentence of the  24 second paragraph about the percentage of the chiefs  25 names that come from Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en -- Gitksan  26 or Tsimshian language?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   I would like you to therefore now turn to page 154.  29 And at page 154 under the heading, and I quote "The  30 Nature Of The Authority Of The Wet'suwet'en Chiefs"  31 you give this opinion, and I quote:  32  33 "The House chiefs govern the fishing sites  34 at the summer salmon fishing villages.  With  35 the sub-chiefs they govern the outline  36 territories.  They are responsible for the  37 land, the people, the animals and fish and  38 plants on their land.  They direct the  39 people so as to manage, conserve and harvest  40 the resources wisely.  The head chiefs, with  41 the assistance of the heirs, decide the  42 succession to titles.  In the feast hall,  43 they elevate people whom they consider  44 worthy of succeeding to titles; they also  45 take titles away from holders who they prove  46 unworthy.  The head chiefs preside at feast.  47 In the feast hall and outside, the chiefs 1302?  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 decide disputes and help people through  2 their crises.  They perform their duties  3 with the aid of spiritual power, kun or ha  4 bo tsat', which also makes them healers or  5 diiyinii.  Having a high chief's name is a  6 great responsibility, requiring the holder  7 to act correctly and with decorum."  8  9 And ha bo tsat' is H-A, new word, B-O, new word,  10 T-A-S-T, apostrophe, and diiyinii is D-I-I-Y-I-N-I-I.  11 Now, does that statement that I've just read to you  12 comprise your opinion in respect of the nature of the  13 authority of the Wet'suwet'en chiefs?  14 A   Yes, it does.  15 Q   Now, I would like to ask you in respect of your  16 opinion as it is stated here on page 154 as it applies  17 to fishing sites, I want to direct your attention to  18 the basis or the underlying reasons, facts, upon which  19 you base the opinion on fishing sites.  20 A   The control of the fishing sites by the head chiefs  21 has been attested to in a number of ways.  Jenness  22 describes the ownership of the fishing sites at  23 Hagwilget.  He did not describe the fishing sites at  24 Moricetown.  He apparently did most of his work at  25 Hagwilget rather than Moricetown.  26 Q   Would you just pause there for a moment.  If I direct  27 your attention to page 486 and 487 of tab 24 of volume  28 2, is this where Jenness makes the description you've  29 indicated?  That's volume 3.  I just direct your  30 attention to 486 and 487 at tab 24.  31 A   Yes, this is what I was making reference to.  32 Q   Okay.  And what other facts did you rely upon in the  33 formation of your opinion?  34 A   Observations of the fishing as is conducted at the  35 Moricetown Canyon --  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  Excuse me, my lord, are we speaking about a  37 certain portion of these two pages?  Is it the fishing  38 sites on the map that my friend is referring to?  3 9    MR. RUSH:  40 Q   Well, I will ask the witness.  If you wouldn't mind  41 directing your attention to pages 486 and 487.  42 A   Yes, the letters A through G correspond to fishing  43 sites which Jenness gives.  Just before the beginning  44 of the main body of the text on page 487 he says:  45  46 "A-G.  Fishing places owned by different  47 Clans..." 13029  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  And then the letters refer to the letters that are  above talking about the different houses.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Perhaps Dr. Mills could just finish that  sentence she was reading, my lord.  THE WITNESS:  "...but open to use by a member of any clan  or phratry."  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  RUSH:  Q   Dr. Mills, what other information did you rely upon in  order to come to your conclusions here?  A   I relied upon observation of the conduct of fishing at  Moricetown, particularily in July.  Q   Over what period of time and when did you make these  observations?  A  At Moricetown Canyon particularily in the summer of  1985.  Q   Yes, go ahead.  A  And also 1986.  Q   All right.  And can you -- are there any other sources  of information that you rely on?  A   I interviewed and talked -- I interviewed some of the  chiefs who were most active in the fishery at  Moricetown, particularily Chief Woos and Roy Morris  and Adam Gagnon who --  Q   All right.  And in terms of your interviews with Roy  Morris, Adam Gagnon and your observations about the  canyon fishing site at Moricetown, what were you able  to determine about the site?  A   Oh, they pointed out that previously the sites had  been used in a different form because there were very  specific sites which were the property of different  houses.  And some of those still exist but many of  them have been rendered unusable by the construction  of a fish ladder at Moricetown Canyon.  And so they  pointed out that the different clans have accomodated  themselves and used the places where you can fish.  RUSH:  In respect of the opinion that you indicate on page  154 --  MACKENZIE:  Excuse me, I think my friend is about to start a  new subject, my lord, that's why I tried not to  interrupt him.  Is my friend going to be asking Dr.  Mills about whether there are notes or observations  relating to those Moricetown -- notes of observations  relating to those Moricetown fishing points that my  friend just elicited?  RUSH:  My lord, I don't intend to respond to my friend's 13030  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  interjections each and every time.  I am conducting  the examination the way I please, and if I can do this  each and every time -- if my friend wants me to do  this we are going to be here for a long time.  And I  don't say that -- it is a process where if my friend  is going to challenge this it may well be for him to  do so in cross-examination if this is a point for him.  Alternatively if he feels that the underlying basis of  Dr. Mills' evidence is not sufficiently substantiated  he may want to make a point to you in argument on that  subject.  But the question of how I conduct the  questioning surely is a matter for me to determine,  and I try to be accomodating in terms of steering  the —  THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Rush, I think your friend's question was  really in the nature of a euphemistic inquiry as to  whether that reference might conveniently be found.  I  don't think he was really suggesting in anyway how you  should conduct the examination.  MR. RUSH:  Well, I'll be guided by that, my lord.  THE COURT:  I don't think there is any obligation on you to tell  him.  I think that if it is conveniently available and  won't disturb the flow of your examination I would  expect you to tell him.  If it will then I don't think  you are obliged to.  Dr. Mills, the interview that you had with Roy Morris,  Woos, and Adam Gagnon, that was an interview that  occurred in the summer of 1985 did you say?  That's right.  And where did that interview take place?  At the Moricetown Canyon.  Yes, go ahead.  You wanted to say something?  Yes, I also wanted to add that a great deal of my  understanding of the use, ownership and the changes in  the use of the fishing sites at Moricetown had come  from the land came -- land claim transcripts which I  read.  Q   All right.  In terms of this interview, the question  is did you make notes of this interview?  A   No, I didn't.  Q   Did you record them in some way?  A   I don't recall that I did.  Q   Okay.  And what your memory is now today of the  content of the discussion you had with Roy Morris,  Adam Gagnon, is that a recollection unaided by any  notes, if I may put it that way?  MR.  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A 13031  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   That's correct.  2 Q   Now, Dr. Mills, I would like to turn your attention,  3 please, to the statement that you make in your opinion  4 at page 154, the second sentence:  5  6 "With the sub-chiefs they govern the  7 outlying territories.  They are responsible  8 for the land, the people, the animals and  9 fish and plants on their land."  10  11 And what is it that you base your opinion on here?  12 A   I base my opinion on the land claim transcripts and  13 interviews that I had with chiefs.  14 Q   And I direct your attention to page 156.  15 A   Perhaps if you would like a specific example in that  16 case?  17 Q   Yes.  18 A   I travelled out to the territory with Peter Jim and he  19 talked about the use and harvesting on his  20 territories.  I did record notes of that trip which I  21 think you can refer us to.  22 Q   I wonder if volume 1, tab 7 could be placed before the  23 witness, please.  Dr. Mills, at tab 7 of volume 1  24 about a third of the way into the tab at a number  25 that's marked in the bottom right-hand corner 272, are  26 those field notes that you took of the trip that you  27 just described with Peter Jim?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   And what's the date on that, please?  30 A   July 3, 1985.  31 Q   And, Dr. Mills, just referring you to the opinion  32 again, there is a passage that you attribute to Pat  33 Namox at 146.  Do you have that?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And in terms of your opinion, did you have occasion to  36 rely on this communication?  37 A   Yes, I did.  38 Q   And do you recall the circumstances of the interview  39 you had with Mr. Namox or Pat Namox?  4 0 A   Yes, it was at a wedding.  I attended the wedding and  41 this was said to me at the reception before the food  42 was served.  I did not have paper and pencil with me  43 at the time.  I returned from the wedding and put it  44 into my word processor.  45 Q   You also refer on page 157 to Chief Hattakumex, that's  4 6 H-A-T-T-A-K-U-M-E-X.  Did you rely on any information  47 that was as a result of an interview with Bazil 13032  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Michell?  2 A   Yes, I did.  3 Q   And the circumstances of that, you have it here  4 evidenced as the commission evidence?  5 A   Yes, Bazil Michell was talking casually at the end of  6 one time when we were taking evidence and he remarked  7 to his sister that Alfred Joseph was going to be going  8 to get --  9 Q   Alfred Joseph?  10 A   I'm sorry, Alfred Michell was going to be going out to  11 Bazil Michell's territory to take beaver meat for the  12 feast -- for the funeral feast of Bazil Michell's  13 niece and his sister's daughter.  14 Q   In terms of the two passages that you've just directed  15 the court's attention to, did you rely on those and  16 any other information, I might add as well, in respect  17 of your opinion that, and I am quoting:  18  19 "They direct the people so as to manage,  20 conserve and harvest the resources wisely"?  21  22 A   Yes, I did.  23 Q   Were there other facts upon which you relied in order  24 to make that -- come to that opinion?  25 A   Yes.  2 6 Q   And what were they?  27 A   I relied upon the land claims tapes and the commission  28 evidence that had taken place of Johnny David, Bazil  2 9              Michell and Ema Michell.  30 Q   Did you rely on your feast notes at all?  31 A   Yes.  In the feasts it is sometimes announced where  32 the food comes from, especially the beaver meat.  33 Q   Thank you.  34 A   For example, it was announced when that Harvey Naziel  35 brought beaver meat to the feast hall for the first  36 time.  It was his first time that he contributed  37 beaver meat to the feast hall, so the first time is  38 particularily noted in the feast hall.  39 Q   You were present and observed this?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   In your opinion on page 154 as well you go onto say,  42 and I quote:  43  44 "The head chiefs, with the assistance of  45 their heirs, decide the succession to  46 titles.  In the feast hall, they elevate  47 people whom they consider worthy of 13033  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  succeeding to titles; they also take titles  away from those who prove unworthy."  And I ask you if you can express to his lordship the  facts upon which it was that you relied for that  opinion?  I attended a number of feasts at which the succession  of people to the hereditary titles were announced, and  I also attended a feast in which titles were taken  away from two individuals.  I would just like to direct the witness' attention  now to volume 2 and ask you to look at tab 3.  And if  you could examine tab 3 which is the feast for Little  Tommy Michell dated December 16, 1985.  :  I'm sorry, volume 3?  Volume 2, my lord.  :  Tab 3?  It's at tab 3.  :  Yes.  And, Dr. Mills, could you tell his lordship in coming  to the opinion that you have expressed on page 154 on  the course of succession of names whether you had  occasion to refer to the notes that you took of this  feast?  Yes, I did.  And on the bottom right-hand corner there are numbers  on the pages and would you refer to number 29.  I  would ask if you made reference to that?  Yes, I did.  And would you just express which portion of the page  that you made reference to?  Towards the top of the page there is a paragraph that  isn't preceded by numbers.  And Stanley Nikal told me  and I wrote down:  "Like David Dennis not present, feed the  name, to survive we have to feed the names."  He was expressing the fact that at this particular  feast David Dennis who was a holder of Wet'suwet'en  title Satsan was not present.  He was in ill health.  But at his seat the seat was left vacant and the gifts  and foods and objects that would have been given him  if he had been present were collected on his chair and  assembled and then later taken to him in recognition  of the fact that he is the holder of this title and 13034  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 that this title has real importance to the  2 Wet'suwet'en people.  3 Q   You indicated that you had attended a feast where two  4 names were withdrawn from holders?  5 A   That's correct.  6 Q   And do you recall the feast that you attended in which  7 that happened?  8 A   It was a Gitumden feast I think.  9 Q   The feasts are contained at tab 1 through 15 where the  10 notes of those feasts are.  11 A   It might have been at tab 5, but I would prefer to  12 find the reference.  13 Q   All right.  I'll look.  I'll ask you to do that at the  14 break.  Now, Dr. Mills, I wonder if you could refer  15 back to your opinion, please.  And in that opinion  16 expressed on page 154 you say, and I quote:  17  18 "The head chiefs preside at feasts.  In the  19 feast hall and outside, the chiefs decide  20 disputes and help people through their  21 crises.  They perform their duties with the  22 aid of spiritual power, kun or ha bo tsat',  23 which also makes them healers or diiyinii."  24  25 I've given the spellings for those.  And, Dr. Mills,  26 if you could tell the his lordship what you relied on  27 for that?  28 A   Observations of events that took place while I was  29 conducting this research.  For example, outside of the  30 feasts themselves the head chiefs, some chiefs noted  31 that one couple had had a marital break up.  And in  32 order to effect a reconciliation they began launching  33 plans to require that these people hold a feast  34 because they had shamed themselves by breaking up  35 their marriage.  And with the threat of having to hold  36 a feast that would cost them a great deal of money the  37 couple in question had a reconciliation.  This was  38 used by the head chiefs knowing that they might have  39 the power to effect a reconciliation which was what  40 they desired.  41 Q   Who were the chiefs involved?  42 A   The chiefs were Chief Woos, Roy Morris, and Dzeeh,  43 Madeline Alfred.  44 Q   Is this described at pages 160 to 161 of your opinion?  45 A   Yes.  4 6 Q   And how was it that you came by the knowledge that  47 there was this attempted reconciliation by Chief Woos, 13035  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 W-O-O-S, and did you say --  2 A   Dzeeh.  3 Q   D-Z-E-E-H.  4 A   I happened to be present when they were -- when  5 discussion was going on about this event and what they  6 were planning to do.  7 Q   Okay.  I want to show you a note.  I just want to show  8 you a note that is dated April 7, 1986 attributed to  9 Roy Morris.  Is this a note that you made of a  10 conversation involving Chief Woos, Roy Morris?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Does this refer to the occurrence that you've just  13 described?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And where was this note taken?  16 A   I think it was taken at the fire hall at Moricetown.  17 Q   Okay.  And this is a note made by you, is it?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And the date indicated was an interview with Mr. Roy  20 Morris?  21 A   That's correct.  22 Q   And I'm just going to ask you, if you will, to look at  23 the other pages, although not relevant, and I will ask  24 you now to identify them.  Not relevant to this  25 subject, and ask you to identify them.  There is a  26 passage of January 15, 1986 "Work of a Chief" and  27 the -- who is the interviewee in this case?  28 A  Myself.  29 Q   Interviewee, who was being interviewed?  30 A   Oh, who was being interviewed, Roy Morris.  31 Q   All right.  And this interview was conducted by  32 yourself?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And there is another two-page interview with Pat  35 Namox.  Do you see that?  3 6 A   I do.  37 Q   And is that an interview you had with Pat Namox?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Okay.  And do you know the date?  It is undated, but  40 are you able to determine the date?  41 A   I think that this was notes that I made on further  42 discussion of him.  At the time of that wedding he was  43 describing this material to me.  44 Q   And can you give us the relative time date?  I don't  45 recall if you said what the date of the wedding was?  46 A  We saw it a moment ago.  It appears in my opinion  47 report. 13036  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q   Yes.  There is a reference at the bottom of the second  page to a time of 1986, is that --  A   Right, July 19, 1986.  Q   All right.  And the last page, please, is that -- it  says "Charley Austin, January 12, 1985".  Is that a  typewritten note of an interview you had with Charley  Austin on that date?  A   I believe this is an excerpted statement that he made  at a feast.  Q   I see.  Did you type this?  Is this your typing?  A   Yes.  Q   And do you remember the feast that he -- at which this  note was taken?  A   It was the fun -- let's see if this date corresponds.  It was the funeral feast for Mat Michell, and it  appears at tab 1.  Q   And these are your notes?  A   Yes.  Q   And Roy Morris, Pat Namox and Charley Austin are they  chiefs of Wet'suwet'en?  A   Yes, they are.  RUSH:  I am handing up two notes and I ask you to insert  them at the next tab that should be located at volume  1.  There is no next tab tab.  I will venture to get  one for your lordship.  If you could just put it at  the back after tab 7 in volume 1 and I will get a new  tab.  COURT:  All right.  RUSH:  And I would like these minutes marked as the next  exhibit.  THE COURT:  Yes, on the basis that you've already mentioned  several times.  Thank you.  Well, Exhibit 929.  929 and it will be tab 8?  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  RUSH:  COURT  REGISTRAR:  RUSH:  Yes  (EXHIBIT 929:  Tab  Volume 1)  THE COURT:  What tab will it be?  THE REGISTRAR:  Tab 8 in book 1.  MR. RUSH:  Q   Now, just with regard to the first note which was a  rather long way around of asking you about whether or  not that was the note that you made of the interview  you had with Mr. Roy Morris concerning the efforts to  bring about a reconciliation upon which you based your 13037  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  A  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  A  30  THE COURT  31  MR. RUSH:  32  Q  33  34  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  THE COURT  41  MR. RUSH:  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  47  opinion on that subject on page 154?  That's correct, those are the notes.  All right.  Dr. Mills, again looking at page 154 I ask  that you direct your attention to the next sentence.  It is the second last sentence on page 154:  "They perform their duties with the aid of  spiritual power."  I wonder if you could indicate to the court what it is  that you relied upon for this?  Well, I relied on Jenness, the land claims  transcripts, commission evidence, and also interviews  which I conducted.  Again, please?  I relied on Jenness, the land claims transcripts, and  the commissioned evidence and interviews which I had.  Did you have an interview with Pat Namox on this?  Yes, and I did take notes in that instance.  Yes.  And is the substance of the information upon  which you relied set out on pages 193 and 194 of your  opinion?  Yes, it is.  And the basis for that summary, if I can put it that  way, in your opinion is that to be found, please, at  tab 7 of volume 1 and I believe 224 in the bottom  right-hand corner which indicates an interview with  Pat Namox on November 14, 1986?  Yes, it is.  :  24?  Can you just summarize for us, Dr. Mills, the  significance of what was said as it impacts on your  conclusion that the chiefs perform their duties with  the aid of spiritual power?  This is a category which is important to the  Wet'suwet'en chiefs now.  It is part of their  formulation of the significance and authority of the  chiefs.  That was page 224, my lord.  :  Yes, thank you.  And what is the power that is -- that you perceive in  the account that Pat Namox told you that you have set  out on pages 193 to 194 of your opinion?  The Wet'suwet'en chiefs expect to have power that they  have gained from the animals and from their contact  with these forces which affects their conduct of their 1303?  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 lives and their understanding of the animals and of  2 people.  3 Q   At page 162 of your opinion under the heading  4 "Spiritual Power of the Chiefs" you make reference  5 first to the ha bo tsat'.  You've already drawn the  6 court's attention to that in your research and  7 opinion.  You also make reference to the kaluhim it  8 appears to be as I read the word and it is spelled  9 K-A-L-U-H-I-M which is in the second full paragraph,  10 first line of page 162 of the opinion.  Can you  11 describe, Dr. Mills, who or what the kaluhim is?  12 A   The kaluhim is a society of healers among the  13 Wet'suwet'en which was described by Jenness and which  14 continues to function in a less public way today than  15 it does when Jenness visited the Wet'suwet'en in 1924,  16 '25.  But Johnny David in his commission evidence as  17 well as Ema Michell made reference to the kaluhim and  18 being healed by it or as a member of it.  I think in  19 my report I give an example of a contemporary chief  20 who described being healed by kaluhim.  21 Q   You make reference as well on page 163 to a photograph  22 of the kaluhim.  And what distinguished the kaluhim in  23 that photograph?  24 A   The cedar bark necklaces that the people were wearing  25 were their insignia of being members of the kaluhim.  26 Q   Is that a photograph that was maintained in the  27 archives?  2 8 A   Yes, it was.  29 Q   And the people that are listed as being in the kaluhim  30 as identified in that photograph, are they in the  31 first full paragraph page 163?  32 A   They are.  33 Q   I am going to try to find that photograph in the  34 exhibits.  I think it has been -- I will direct you to  35 it in just a moment.  Dr. Mills, I am going to direct  36 you if you will, please, to peruse pages 154 to 164 of  37 your opinion.  I ask you if you adopt the facts as  38 stated here the descriptions given and the opinions  39 that you've voiced in your opinion?  4 0 A   Yes, I do adopt them.  41 Q   Thank you.  If you'll look, please, now, to page 165  42 under the chapter entitled "Wet'suwet'en Law".  On  43 this page you say in the second full paragraph, and I  44 quote -- well, beginning the first paragraph:  45  46 "The Wet'suwet'en commonly talk about their  47 law.  They speak of it as the principles 13039  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 which govern not only human relations but  2 relations of humans to the land, to animals  3 and to the spirit world which sustains them  4 all."  5  6 And then after giving expressions about Wet'suwet'en  7 words for law you go onto say.  And I quote in the  8 second paragraph:  9  10 "The principles of Wet'suwet'en law define  11 both how the people own and use the surface  12 of the earth when they are dispersed on the  13 territories and also determine how they  14 govern themselves and settle disputes when  15 they are gathered together in the feast."  16  17 Now, do those statements taken together represent your  18 opinion with regard to the law of the Wet'suwet'en  19 people?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Now, in the sense that you use the word "law" here,  22 what is the sense that you're using it?  23 A   I'm using law not in the western sense of the concept,  24 but in the both anthropological context which  25 coincides with the Wet'suwet'en context where law is  26 thought of as the principles which govern how one  27 should conduct oneself.  28 Q   Okay.  And on page 166 you refer to "The Law Of  29 Matrilineage".  And you say in the first -- well, the  30 second paragraph under the title "The Law of the  31 Matrilineage", and I am quoting:  32  33 "The law of matrilineage clearly places  34 every Wet'suwet'en within a house and clan."  35  36 Now, can you just express what you mean by that?  37 A   The Wet'suwet'en principle for knowing who they are  38 and where they belong is expressed in the principle of  39 matrilinean descent.  People recognize what clan they  40 belong to, what house they belong to, what territory  41 they belong to through this principle of descent.  42 Q   Okay.  And you indicate that you rely on the  43 communication, the personal communication of Pat Namox  44 on July 19, 1986?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And is that -- what was the circumstance of that  47 communication? 13040  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  THE COURT  46  MR. RUSH:  47  THE COURT  This was the same wedding.  And you also say at the top of page 167:  "A corollary of the law of matrilineage is  that one marries outside one's own house and  clan."  Can you amplify on what you mean by that?  The clans are exogamous which is a term which means  that you cannot marry a member of your own house and  clan.  So this becomes a principle which formulates  how marriages take place and how people regulate both  marriage and a relationship to the land.  And you say in the next full paragraph at the bottom  of that paragraph, and I quote:  "The law of clan exogamy is practiced today  as in the past, and parents and grandparents  are careful to step in when they see  misalliances forming."  And that's taken from 167 of your opinion.  What do  you base that on, Dr. Mills?  I base that on noting that when grandparents and  parents if they see their children starting to go out  with someone who is not in the appropriate clan they  tell them that that's not correct.  I noted that chief  Woos, Ema Michell objected to her grandson beginning  to form a misalliance, and as a result he therefore  formed a different relationship which was correct.  I  also based it on the personal communication of Victor  Jim who described a parallel circumstance where he  began at first dating someone and was told by his  grandparents that that was incorrect.  They got out  their cane and shook it at him and said:  "That's  incorrect", and therefore he ceased dating the person  who was not in the correct category.  When was that information conveyed to you by Victor  Jim?  Oh, he has told that incident any number of times.  I  don't think I ever committed that one to paper because  it was so clear in my mind.  He gave such a good  pantomime of his grandmother shaking her cane at him.  :  Can we take the afternoon adjournment?  Yes.  :  All right. 13041  A. Mills (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court will recess.  2 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED PURSUANT TO AFTERNOON RECESS)  3  4  5  6 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  7 a true and accurate transcript of the  8 proceedings herein to the best of my  9 skill and ability.  10  11  12    13 LISA FRANKO, OFFICIAL REPORTER  14 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 13042  A. Mills (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  2  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  4 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  5  6 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH, Continued:  7 Q   Dr. Mills, if you would please turn to page 168.  8 First full paragraph you say, quote:  9  10 "From the woman's point of view, after marriage,  11 the wife leaves her father's house and her  12 father's territory and takes up residence in her  13 husband's house and territory, unless her father  14 and her husband are from the same clan.  This is  15 an important exception as marriage to one's cross  16 cousin or to someone in one's father's clan is the  17 preferred marriage.  A young woman often married  18 her father's heir, keeping the exchange between  19 her mother's and father's side the same one that  20 would operate for her children, a pattern which  21 continues to operate today."  22  23 End of quote.  And what is it that you base this  24 particular opinion upon, Dr. Mills?  25 A   Jenness noted the preference for cross cousin marriage  26 and it's a principle that one sees operative today.  27 For example, one of Emma Michell's daughters is  28 married to someone in her -- that is the daughter's  29 father's clan and it was -- has been announced that  30 since her father, little Tommy Michell died, the  31 son-in-law has been placed as one of the people who  32 has the rights to the territory of the father.  So  33 therefore, in this pattern of marrying, having a woman  34 marry someone who is in the father's house and clan,  35 then the son-in-law has the rights to use that  36 territory.  And these things are publicly announced  37 and expressed as part of the arrangements of marriage  38 as part of the recognition of the consequences of  39 marriages and particular houses.  4 0 Q   And in the example that you have given, was that  41 announced at a Feast?  42 A   Yes.  The succession of the territory was announced.  43 Q   And which Feast was that?  44 A   Little Tommy Michell's Funeral Feast.  45 Q   All right.  I want now to turn your attention to the  46 subject on page 169 entitled "Laws Regarding Ownership  47 of Territory."  And you say that, quote: 13043  A. Mills (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  THE COURT  A  "Under Wet'suwet'en law, Feast names are legally  related to distinct territory."  End quote.  And I think you've described this earlier  in your testimony, but can you express what this is  based upon?  The hereditary titles which are all part of the system  of clans and houses so that all the titles are related  to a specific clan or house and these names are  related to the territory as well.  It's particularly  the head chiefs of the houses and the sub chiefs that  have the primary jurisdiction over the territories  that belong to the house, but the rest of the titles  are related to the house, so that everyone recognizes  that these titles belonged to a particular house and  are positioning people vis-a-vis territory and in line  to become the heirs for the head and sub chiefs who  are the ones who are -- have the jurisdiction over the  territory.  Now, you cite Moses David, Chief Samooh, on page 169.  And what -- is this an interview that you had or is  this an interview that you had access to that you  read?  This is a land claims interview which was done in  1982.  And that you --  I reviewed.  Yes.  Yes.  Thank you.  :  That is an interview with Moses David?  An interview  with Moses David?  It was a land claims transcript of an interview that  was done with Moses David by a Wet'suwet'en prior to  my doing any research for this case.  It's part of the  transcripts that I reviewed.  MR.  RUSH:  Q  All right,  say, quote:  At the bottom of page 169, Dr. Mills, you  "When the holder of a title dies, the title and  the associated territory is passed on officially  and formally in a clan --"  Excuse me, 13044  A. Mills (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  THE COURT  10  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  THE COURT  22  A  23  THE COURT  24  MR. RUSH:  25  Q  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  45  Q  46  47  " -- in a Feast held by the deceased's clan and  witnessed by all the other clans."  End quote.  And what is the factual basis for that?  Again, it's Jenness, the land claims tapes and the  attendance at a number of Feasts in which this -- I  observed this process, interviews with chiefs who  described it.  :  Dr. Mills, I'm speaking from the recollections of a  long time ago, but -- and counsel correct me if I am  wrong, but I thought I had been told somewhere that  the Funeral Feast was arranged by the father's side?  A Funeral Feast is arranged by the clan of the person  who has died, but they hire people from the father's  side to provide a lot of services, particularly to pay  for the casket and sit up with the corpse and do a lot  of the transportation from the funeral home as it's  now done.  So the father's side is very involved, but  they do it at the invitation of the clan of the person  who is deceased.  :  So this is a correct statement in here?  Yes, it is.  :  All right.  Thank you.  Now, Dr. Mills, would you turn, please, to page 171.  The top of the page I'm quoting:  "One of the firmest laws in the Wet'suwet'en  system is that you do not go on someone's  territory where you do not belong without asking  someone's permission."  And what is it that you base that conclusion?  I base that conclusion on the land claims transcripts.  And is one of those cited and attributed to an  interview with Lucy Basil?  Yes.  At the top of the page?  That's correct.  Yes.  Go ahead, please.  I base it on going to the territory with chiefs, on  interviews with chiefs, and on the commission evidence  that had been taken before I wrote this letter and  also on statements made at Feasts.  Now, in your opinion on page 172, you refer to the  Negedeldus situation.  And that's spelled  N-e-g-e-d-e-1-d-u-s.  And at the top of 172 you say: 13045  A. Mills (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2 "The Negedeldus situation -- "  3  4 And here I'm quoting:  5  6 "The Negedeldus situation is a special instance of  7 permission being granted by the father for his son  8 to continue using his territory after his death,  9 with the understanding that the territory will  10 revert to the father's clan after the son's  11 death."  12  13 End of quote.  Now, can you describe what the term  14 Negedeldus means?  You've described its operation  15 perhaps in that quote that I've indicated.  Can you  16 express what the term means?  17 A  Well, the term itself translates as frying something  18 for oneself, which means that a person is going out to  19 their father's territory to feed themselves basically.  20 But it is a situation which is recognized by the  21 Wet'suwet'en, is considered appropriate and correct  22 under Wet'suwet'en law that a person can announce that  23 publicly before he dies that his son will continue to  24 use the territory.  It's a situation that is allowed  25 under Wet'suwet'en law in the event that the father  26 does not publicly ask for this to be the arrangement  27 before he dies.  Typically the person who becomes his  28 successor grants that privilege to the sons of the  29 former holder in any case.  30 Q   Now —  31 THE COURT:  Again — Dr. Mills, again going back in my  32 recollection without checking it, I thought I was told  33 before that the sons had the right to use the father's  34 land until his father's death?  35 A   If the -- if it's -- the holder asks -- announces that  36 they are for some special reason making their son the  37 caretaker, it's considered a caretaker position.  The  38 son doesn't become a member of the father's clan.  He  39 doesn't have permanent rights to it, but in some  40 situations the Wet'suwet'en consider it acceptable to  41 place the son there.  One instance that has been cited  42 in the commission evidence of Johnny David, for  43 example, is that his father, who was chief Smogelgem,  44 announced that since the person who was going to take  45 over the name Smogelgem was too aged to use the  46 territory, that he was placing his son in this  47 Negedeldus situation vis-a-vis the land. 13046  A. Mills (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  THE  COURT  2  3  A  4  THE  COURT  5  A  6  THE  COURT  7  8  A  9  10  11  MR.  RUSH:  12  Q  13  14  15  16  A  17  THE  COURT  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  THE  COURT  24  A  25  THE  COURT  26  A  27  28  MR.  RUSH:  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  :  Well, is Negedeldus dependent upon there being a  public declaration of this arrangement?  Yes.  :  This caretaker arrangement?  Yes.  :  Absent such a declaration, does the son's rights to  the territory expire with the death of the father?  They don't entirely expire, but the permission to have  to be received from the person who's taken over the  succession to that territory and title.  So in the situation you have just described, the  person would have to obtain the permission of the new  chief that would be the owner of that territory that  he would be using?  That's correct.  :  Does Negedeldus status depend upon the consent of  the new chief?  If the holder of a title announces a Negedeldus before  he dies, then the holder of the new title is aware of  this at the time he takes the title and it's a sharing  situation.  :  He's bound by it?  He's bound by it.  :  The new chief is?  Yes.  And that's the situation now with the Smogelgem  territory.  And just in respect of the Smogelgem territory, who is  it that is Negedeldus on the territory?  It's Johnny David who is Negedeldus on Smogelgem  territory.  And who is Smogelgem?  Smogelgem is Leonard George.  All right.  And Johnny David is from which house and  clan?  He's from G'en egh la yex, House of Many Eyes in the  Laksilyu or Frog Clan.  And Smogelgem is Laksamshu?  Is Laksamshu.  And Smogelgem was also Johnny David's  father, so that is why he was placed in this position.  And Johnny David has lived a very long life, so that  he is still in this position.  And given that Johnny  David is growing old, he had his -- by right of  Negedeldus he could place or allow his son to have  rights to use this territory, the Smogelgem territory,  because he was the steward and the caretaker of the 13047  A. Mills (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  THE COURT  11  12  A  13  14  15  THE COURT  16  A  17  18  19  MR. RUSH:  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  A  territory.  But his son actually predeceased him, the  late Chief Samooh, Moses David.  And so now Johnny  David has the right to place his grandson who is an  adult as having the rights to use the Smogelgem  territory.  And this -- but everyone recognizes that  this territory belongs to Smogelgem and it has to  revert to Smogelgem's house.  On what event?  Upon the event of Johnny's death.  :  What did you say just now about Johnny David can put  his grandson on the land?  Yes.  Since he's the caretaker of the land, he has the  right to say whoever goes there.  And so he can say  that his son or his grandson can use the land.  :  Son or grandson?  Son or grandson or whoever.  He could say whoever can  use the land.  But at the same time it's a situation  that terminates with his death.  Now, is the -- is Negedeldus a part of the  Wet'suwet'en principles of territorial ownership?  Yes, it is .  And you make reference to Negedeldus on page 172, and  I've directed your attention to that and its affect,  on page 172.  Now, you've answered the question in  response to his lordship's question of you.  Negedeldus is not a trespass situation?  That's correct.  It's not.  Under Wet'suwet'en law?  Yes, that's correct.  It's not trespass.  In -- what is the situation of trespass under  Wet'suwet'en law?  Trespass would be the use of territory without the  permission of the chief of the house and clan that has  the rights to that territory.  All right.  And from -- how was trespass dealt with?  In the past, trespass was dealt with very seriously.  The first time that someone was found trespassing,  they might be given a warning, but if they were found  to repeatedly trespass, it was considered perfectly  acceptable to kill an offender.  Okay.  You cite in your report on pages 173 and 174  the extracts from statements of Johnny David of March  17, 1988 -- excuse me, '82, and John Namox, March 17,  1982.  Are those examples of the application of  sanctions with respect to trespass?  Yes, they are.  They are describing instances where 1304?  A. Mills (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 someone indeed treated trespass by taking the action  2 of killing the trespasser or attempting to.  3 Q   Yes.  And these two references, are they to the  4 interview transcripts with Johnny David and John  5 Namox?  6 A   Yes, they are.  7 Q   And you indicate that they are both chiefs of the  8 Wet'suwet'en?  9 A   That's correct.  10 Q   Were there other ways of invoking sanctions in the  11 past or -- yes, first in the past as to trespass on  12 another's territory apart from, as you've said, the  13 warning and the potential killing of the offender?  14 A   There were other sanctions that were used with threats  15 and use of ha bo tsat or suprin medicine power to  16 afflict the trespasser.  17 Q   And you make reference to that on page 175 and 176 of  18 your opinion?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   And you rely upon the interview of Mary George of  21 April 23, 1981?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   Okay.  You rely on other sources for your information  24 here?  25 A   I also conducted interviews with Wet'suwet'en that  26 stated the same things.  27 Q   Mary George was formerly chief Tsebaysa?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   And it's spelled T-s-e-b-a-y-s-a.  30 A   That's correct.  31 Q   And did you rely on other interviews?  You indicated  32 that you had.  Can you cite an example of another  33 interview that you relied on in relation to the  34 application of the ha bo tsat?  35 A   Sarah Tait described the use of ha bo tsat as well.  36 Chief Weehalite.  37 Q   You also refer, Dr. Mills, on page 176 to the Chief  38 Lilloos, L-i-1-l-o-o-s, and that's Emma Michell, who  39 described in her commission evidence that her eldest  40 brother, Jimmy Mitchell, Chief Wikax, W-i-k-a-x, was  41 in her opinion killed by a party Wet'suwet'en for  42 trespassing near the Suskwa river in 1935.  And you --  43 I'm instructed, my lord, that that is at Volume 1 of  44 page 82 of Emma Michell's commission.  That is her  45 commission evidence is the source of that information,  46 is that correct?  47 A   That's correct.  That was a situation where someone 13049  A. Mills (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 was trying to extend the Negedeldus position beyond  2 the life of the person who had been granted that  3 right.  4 Q   Now, I'd like to ask you, Dr. Mills, how from your  5 fieldwork and investigations trespass is enforced  6 today?  7 A   Today one of the preventive measures of trespass is  8 that at the Feast Halls it's announced, it's made  9 clear that one is not to trespass.  The knowledge  10 about who is supposed to be where is made clear by  11 declaration of who has what territory, which is  12 concomitant with the passing on of the names at the  13 Feast, so it's publicly -- public knowledge.  14 Q   You refer on page 177 to the powerful sanction of  15 ostracism, citing that as the sanction used to enforce  16 adherence to Wet'suwet'en law.  Now, what is an  17 example of that?  18 A  All right.  In the past a person could be ostracized,  19 which meant that he was not given the rights to be on  20 his own people's, his own clan's territory or his --  21 to be on any territory.  In such a case the only thing  22 that a person could do would be to flee to  23 neighbouring people's territory and of course trying  24 to make a living off that kind of -- that such a  25 place.  And of course they were perceived as a  26 trespasser by the people whose territory it was and  27 therefore could be -- could be dealt with very  28 severely.  And we have both in the commission evidence  29 of Basil Michell and the evidence of Madeline Alfred,  30 reference to such an incident where someone had come  31 from Oot'sinii or Eastern Carrier had come on to  32 Wet'suwet'en territory and was killed for trespass.  33 Q   Is there a form in which the sanction of ostracism  34 takes today?  35 A   Ostracism takes the form of having names taken away.  36 Q   And the impact of that in terms of a Wet'suwet'en, and  37 I think you have given this example already, but the  38 impact of a Wet'suwet'en person having the names taken  39 away, can you comment on that?  40 A  Well, if a person has their name taken away, it's  41 obviously a sign that they -- of displeasure and it  42 makes them in a position so they are not positioned on  43 the territory in the same kind of way or they are  44 definintely not the heir to be the chief of that --  45 become one of the chiefs regulating that -- any --  46 their house's territory.  47 Q   Now, on page 177 at the top of the page you state, and 13050  A. Mills (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 I quote:  2  3 "They -- "  4  5 Meaning the Wet'suwet'en people,  6  7 " -- have a rich tradition of conflict resolution  8 which would inform their settlement of  9 contemporary grievances."  10  11 End quote.  I am wondering if you could explain what  12 you mean by that?  13 A  What I mean is that in and out of the Feast all the  14 chiefs work to settle disputes and settle grievances.  15 One of the ways that it's done is through the Feast  16 hall and having to make compensations to someone who  17 has been offended.  Another way is through a lot of  18 conferring that goes on outside of the structure of  19 the Feasts as well.  20 Q   You indicate the various proceedings for conflict  21 resolution commencing on page 178.  I just wanted to  22 draw your attention to the references that you made to  23 Chief Lilloos again, L-i-1-l-o-o-s, and the way in  24 which the conflict involved in the passages on pages  25 178 and 179 was resolved, and I wonder if you would in  26 reference to that comment on the resolution that Emma  27 Michell is referring to?  28 A   This was a conflict that came up in around 1885, this  29 particular incident when someone had used their ha bo  30 tsat or power or was thought to have to kill two  31 people: his wife and someone he suspected of adultery.  32 And as a result of having killed that person, the  33 relatives of the person who died took offence and  34 killed someone.  And so there was this -- tempers were  35 running very high.  And the way this dispute got  36 settled was by having the head chiefs of the  37 respective clans, particularly the one who is under  38 attack, come and make their presence felt, stand  39 protecting the potential victim, the person who had  40 just taken someone's life and announced that this  41 would have to be resolved through compensation at a  42 Feast and that they would hold a Feast and that the  43 party that -- the clan that felt they had a wrong done  44 to them would be compensated for this murder, which is  45 indeed what happened.  46 Q   And was there a Feast held?  47 A   Yes. 13051  A. Mills (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   As described by Emma Michell?  2 A  A series of Feasts.  3 Q   All right.  Now, the use of a Feast or Feasts as a  4 mechanism to resolve conflict among the Wet'suwet'en,  5 can you comment how if it occurs that the Feast is  6 used today as a means of resolving the conflict?  7 A   For example, if someone is -- feels affronted or is  8 affronted, they can hold a Shame Feast to correct this  9 wrong.  And this has happened recently in the instance  10 of Lawrence Michell, Chief Wistace.  11 Q   That is spelled W-i-s-t-a-c-e?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Yes.  And what happened in that case, please?  14 A   He called a Shame Feast because he had been affronted.  15 He had been assaulted by another Wet'suwet'en chief.  16 And rather than have this indignity remain on what's  17 considered not only himself but his name and his clan,  18 he called this Shame Feast as was described in the  19 commission evidence of Basil Michell.  20 Q   All right.  And is that incident described in your  21 opinion at page 159?  22 A   59?  23 Q   159, yes.  24 A   Yes, it is.  25 Q   Dr. Mills, in what other ways does the Feast act as a  26 mechanism with conflict resolution among Wet'suwet'en?  27 A   It works as a process in which grievances can be  28 aired.  And there is a sense that in some instances  29 there can be a long slow process of resolution of a  30 conflict, that a conflict is announced, recognized and  31 is going to have to be worked out by -- through the  32 conference and wisdom of the chiefs over time.  33 Q   Now, on this count, may I refer you, please, to page  34 52 and 53 of your opinion.  And here you say, and I  35 quote:  36  37 "One of the important functions of the Feast  38 system is to make public who is recognized as the  39 chief of particular areas whether he is there as  40 the hereditary chief or as the caretaker.  There  41 is a consensus that as long as everyone knows who  42 is the caretaker or the chief of a territory, the  43 system functions.  Even if the caretaker is not  44 from the proper clan, as long as everyone knows  45 who has authority over the territory everything  46 works out.  Then people can arrive -- "  47 13052  A. Mills (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Sorry,  2  3 " -- can work out with whom and through whose  4 territory they will pass to arrive to their own.  5 As long as everyone is open and clear who belongs  6 where and who should go where, there is no  7 trouble.  There is a sense that the resolution of  8 the inconsistencies of the system can take time  9 and can be resolved over the long run."  10  11 End quote.  And in terms of that opinion, Dr. Mills,  12 can you comment what example or examples you had in  13 mind?  14 A   One example I just cited as the Smogelgem example  15 where Johnny David has lived such a very long life  16 that his position as the Negedeldus caretaker of the  17 Smogelgem territory has exceeded what people might  18 have expected.  And so there is the sense that this is  19 a situation where he is still in the position to say  20 who can use this territory, but it's a situation  21 that's going to have to get corrected in the long run.  22 Q   And you've described the function, if I can put it in  23 that word -- in those words, in your evidence, but you  24 also describe here on pages 53 the event, if I can put  25 it that way, between Chief Smogelgem and Chief Mugh  2 6 Lagh Legh, Johnny David?  27 A   They commonly at the Feast hall make reference to it.  28 Sometimes it's by real innuendo for Chief Smogelgem  29 simply to say everybody knows where they belong.  30 Everyone understands that means that Johnny David is  31 not to expect the -- to be able to make a Negedeldus  32 situation into the next generation.  33 Q   And you've heard this described yourself at Feasts  34 that you have attended?  35 A   Yes, I have.  36 Q   In terms of the Feast system as a mechanism for  37 resolving disputes with neighbouring peoples, are  38 you -- do you have experience or an opinion with  39 regard to how the Feast has been used in that respect?  40 A   Yes.  They are both -- I have referred already to past  41 examples in the instance where the parties from the  42 Wet'suwet'en went to the Nishga.  Contemporary example  43 would be the All-Clan Feast that was held in April  44 1986 to announce to the neighbouring peoples of the  45 Wet'suwet'en the territories -- to make it very clear  46 what territories they were saying were theirs.  47 Q   And you attended that Feast? 13053  A. Mills (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   I did.  2 Q   And on page 12 you state in the first full paragraph,  3 and I quote:  4  5 "The All-Clan Feast provided a rare opportunity  6 for all the clans to talk about the relation of  7 their chiefs titles to their territory and showed  8 the versatility and effectiveness of the Feast as  9 a means to communicate and settle issues of  10 governance."  11  12 That is your opinion on the All-Clans Feast?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And in terms of the view that you express here, to  15 communicate and settle issues of governance, can you  16 amplify on that, please?  17 A   The -- well, the chiefs who have the names that allow  18 them to be the stewards of a territory are known.  And  19 to make sure that a neighbouring peoples were in  20 agreement that these territories were the hereditary  21 territories of particular chiefs, they held an  22 All-Clans Feast or Feast to which they invited the  23 neighbouring people.  Is that what you meant?  24 Q   Yes.  Now, in pages 12 through 27, if you will just  25 review those, you describe the speeches and the  26 occurrences at this Feast.  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   And is it this description you give, is this the basis  29 for the opinion that you express on page 12?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And in terms of -- just Exhibit 82 again, Madam  32 Registrar.  Perhaps the witness has it in front of  33 her.  Dr. Mills, I just want to refer to Exhibit 82  34 again and ask you if you just peruse that account at  35 the All-Clans Feast.  And if -- I would ask if you  36 refer to and take into account what is stated in  37 Exhibit 82 for the -- as the basis as well for the  38 opinions you express on page 12 and the description of  39 the Feast as you have written it on pages 12 through  40 27?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   I wish to direct your attention to page 54.  And this  43 is in the context of Wet'suwet'en Funeral and  44 Headstone Feasts that you've described in this  45 chapter.  And I want to direct your attention to the  46 last sentence of the first full paragraph which says  47 in part -- well, which says, not in part, and I quote: 13054  A. Mills (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  THE COURT  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  "The Feast hall provides a public forum for this  process.  In the setting of the Feast, differences  of opinion can be aired calmly and witnessed,  setting in motion the process of resolving the  disagreement, with the expectation on everyone's  part that the resolution will take time."  End quote.  And then on the next page, on page 55 you  say in the last paragraph:  "The Feast hall, then, is a forum in which people  can express their different points of view, and  their grievances and find either immediate  satisfaction, or a slow resolution of a recognized  conflict.  While many of the issues to be settled  involve territory, other matters are resolved as  well.  The head chiefs guide the resolution of  differences because they have been acknowledged as  the correct leaders through their succession to  the highest names, which has been validated by the  Feast itself."  Now, those two passages which I have read, Dr. Mills,  did they express your opinion with respect to the  operation of the Feast?  Yes, they do.  Now, what is it that you base your opinion on in  respect of those two passages?  I base it upon observation of Feasts that I have  attended, discussions among the Wet'suwet'en,  interviews I have done, land claims tapes, and  Jenness.  Now --  :  I am sorry, Mr. Rush, we will take about a ten  minute adjournment.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  :  Mr. Rush.  Dr. Mills, on page 55 from the passage that I read to  you before the break, you make reference in your  opinion to the slow resolution of a recognized  conflict.  Can you amplify what you mean by that?  The Wet'suwet'en use the Feast hall and the mehcanism  of having head chiefs for the houses as a way of 13055  A. Mills (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 making known what problems exist and for working them  2 out.  And this -- the concept is that the resolution  3 doesn't -- isn't necessarily going to be something  4 that's immediate.  It has to be worked out by -- in  5 many -- in some instances by a number of chiefs  6 consulting until they can work out a resolution and  7 agree at a consensus on how it ought to be handled.  8 They take into consideration their knowledge of all  9 the individuals involved and that some conflicts can  10 take a considerable time to get resolved.  11 Q   And do you have an example of that?  12 A  Well, the Johnny David case is one.  13 Q   Okay.  Now, if you'll please turn to page 28.  At 28  14 you describe the Funeral and Headstone Feasts of the  15 Wet'suwet'en as a chapter.  And from 28 through to  16 page 55 you describe the Funeral and Headstone Feasts  17 among the Wet'suwet'en.  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Is that so?  20 A   Yes, it is.  21 Q   Yes.  Thank you.  Now, I'd like to ask you if you  22 will, please, to turn to page 43.  Perhaps just before  23 I do that, Dr. Mills, in the description of the Feast  24 at first the Funeral or Headstone Feast that precedes  25 page 43, you set out the preparation for the Feast and  26 describe how that occurs?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   And the seating for the Feast?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And then you give in diagrammatic form the placement  31 in the Feast hall of the various clans?  32 A   Yes, I do.  33 Q   And you describe on page 38 the Feast aspect of the  34 potlatch?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Now, I just want to ask you what do you mean by the  37 Feast aspect?  38 A   One of the things that takes place at a Feast is that  39 everyone is fed a repast.  They are given more food  40 than they can eat at that occasion in fact so they  41 have food that they take home as well.  And the food  42 is -- also relates, or some of the food relates to the  43 territory of the clan that's holding the Feast.  44 Q   And have you experienced yourself participating in a  45 Feast in which foods from the territory or the land of  46 the Wet'suwet'en have been served?  47 A  Many times. 13056  A. Mills (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Now, you refer at page 38 to the commission evidence  2 of Basil Michell.  And I'm instructed, my lord, that  3 this is found at Volume 1, page 16 of the commission  4 evidence of Basil Michell.  That commission evidence  5 is the source of your information that's contained in  6 the second full paragraph on page 38?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   All right.  Now, in the hosting of the Feast, can you  9 indicate, Dr. Mills, what role the house plays in the  10 process of the hosting or of what occurs at the Feast,  11 if any?  12 A   The clan of the person who is deceased or for whom a  13 headstone is being erected is the host clan.  They are  14 the people who do the inviting and arrange for the  15 Feast.  And it -- they in either a Funeral Feast or a  16 Headstone Feast ask that services be done by the  17 father's clan of the deceased and that that clan --  18 and the individuals specifically asked in that clan  19 can provide those services, and then at these Feasts  20 they are repaid for their services both the material  21 amounts that they have put in, and they are given  22 something on top of that as well as the clan can  23 afford to do so.  24 Q   Yes.  Now, in terms of the house within the clan that  25 hosts the Feast, what is the role that the house  26 plays?  27 A   The person -- the house of the person who is deceased  28 takes the lead role in both the Funeral and the  29 Headstone Feasts.  30 Q   Okay.  31 A   But they are assisted by the other houses in their  32 clan.  33 Q   Okay.  And you in page 39 under the heading of, quote,  34 "Business transacted," end quote, indicate the types  35 of business that occurs at a Feast, is that so?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And on page 43, the bottom of the page you say, and I  38 quote:  39  4 0 "The chart below shows the amount of money  41 contributed and the expenses paid at five of the  42 Feasts I have attended where I was able to note  43 that.  It demonstrates that the material support  44 of the potlatch system is strong, and the amount  45 disbursed typically much greater than the  46 expenditure for the Funeral or Headstone."  47 13057  A. Mills (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 And then there is a table that follows that.  And  2 could you just explain the table to his lordship,  3 please, on page 44 of your opinion?  4 A   Right.  This lists five Feasts between October '85 and  5 June '86, and the amount of expenses that had been  6 paid by typically the father's clan and at this Feast  7 the father's clan is reimbursed for this money that  8 they have spent.  And out of a collection that is  9 taken and when the collection exceeds the expenses,  10 then the money that is left over is distributed to the  11 people who have contributed and smaller amounts to  12 other people who have witnessed the whole  13 transactions.  14 Q   And here your focus is the money that is distributed  15 at the Feast.  Are there other commodities distributed  16 at the Feast?  17 A   Yes.  There is a -- food is distributed at the Feast,  18 both as I said food from the territories in the form  19 of beaver meat, sometimes moose meat and berries.  20 Also distributed at the Feast are other edibles that  21 are purchased.  There are typically material objects  22 that are gifted -- given as gifts at these Feasts,  23 such as blankets or afghans.  There is a lot of the  24 lady chiefs spend a great deal of time crocheting  25 afghans that are distributed at these Feasts.  26 Q   You have seen this service at the Feasts?  27 A   Yes, many times.  And there are also other objects  28 that are distributed at the Feasts.  29 Q   Can you give an example of the other types of objects?  30 A  A coat or gloves or a coffee maker or glassware or  31 bowls or a hand saw.  Things of that nature.  And then  32 there are some -- these are particularly given to  33 particular chiefs.  They are as gifts.  And then there  34 are some objects that are given to everyone.  35 Typically at some Feasts every woman may receive a  36 scarf and every man a pair of socks, for example.  37 Q   Does the table on page 44 take into account the money  38 value of the food or dry goods that you describe that  39 are also distributed at a Feast?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   It does?  42 A   Often.  Sometimes these are in excess, but this is  43 often.  44 Q   Okay.  Is this the -- is the money value that's shown  45 in here, is that the actual money that's collected and  46 distributed?  47 A   Yes. 1305?  A. Mills (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   Now, my question is:  In terms of the dry goods and  2 the food, is that -- is that evaluated in terms of  3 their money value, if I can put it that way?  4 A   Yes, it is.  Everything that's contributed to a Feast  5 is announced at the Feast and the person who is  6 contributing, making the contribution is announced as  7 well.  8 Q   All right.  And is that shown on the tables was my  9 question?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Okay.  Now, let me ask you, please, to turn to page  12 45.  At the top of the page the first full paragraph,  13 and I quote:  14  15 "If the deceased person has a name, it is passed  16 on 'like the flag bearer, whenever one dies,  17 another has to come and carry the flag on,' the  18 Wet'suwet'en say.  The highest chiefs names in the  19 Wet'suwet'en houses are associated with territory.  20 Ownership of the territory and authority over the  21 territory is passed on with the title.  The  22 selection of the successor is announced at the  23 Funeral Feast and confirmed at the Headstone  24 Feast.  By their presence the other clans witness  25 to whom the deceased's title, crests and territory  26 are conferred."  27  28 End quote.  Does that, Dr. Mills, represent your  29 opinion with regard to the Feasts which you  30 participated in and have knowledge of?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Okay.  And I want to ask you about the distinction  33 briefly in terms of the Funeral Feast and the  34 Headstone Feast.  When typically is the Funeral Feast  35 held and when typically is the Headstone Feast held?  36 A   The Funeral Feast is held within the week of the  37 demise of the individual and the Headstone Feast is  38 held typically a year after, but sometimes it's  39 postponed until people have been able to assemble  40 enough goods to -- or to be able to hold such a Feast.  41 Q   All right.  Thank you.  If you -- my lord, if you'll  42 please turn to Volume 2, tab one.  Dr. Mills has  43 identified the Feasts described in her notes from tab  44 one through tab 14.  Excuse me tab 15.  I would like  45 to mark them as an exhibit now.  As exhibits.  46 THE REGISTRAR:  Do you have one number and then a dash?  47 MR. RUSH:  Well, no, I think they should be marked separately. 13059  A. Mills (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 Tab one would be the next exhibit.  2 THE COURT:  Well, yes.  I haven't looked at this since the first  3 day.  The first one is the Funeral Feast for Matt  4 Michell.  5 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  6 THE COURT:  And then that goes on for —  7 MR. RUSH:  That's contained within the first tab.  8 THE COURT:  Yes.  But is that all the first tab?  9 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  10 THE COURT:  Oh, all right.  11 MR. RUSH:  And then tab 2 is the Feast at the funeral.  12 THE COURT:  Now, this is a collection of information that the  13 witness has compiled, is it?  14 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  15 THE COURT:  Relating to that —  16 MR. RUSH:  For a Feast which she has attended and observed.  17 THE COURT:  Yes.  18 MR. RUSH:  And for which she has information, in part has been  19 given to her by Wet'suwet'en chiefs.  20 THE COURT:  And which is the basis for the opinion which she has  21 expressed?  22 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  23 THE COURT:  All right.  On that basis tab one can be Exhibit  24 930.  25 THE REGISTRAR:  930.  26  27 (EXHIBIT 930:  Tab one of Plaintiffs' Book II)  28  29 MR. RUSH:  Exhibit tab 2 is the Funeral Feast of Elsie Hart of  30 October 19, 1985.  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  32 MR. RUSH:  Excuse me, my lord.  That date is I stand corrected.  33 That should be October 24, 1985.  34 THE COURT:  Yes.  35 THE REGISTRAR:  931.  3 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  37  38 (EXHIBIT 931: Tab 2 of Plaintiffs' Book II)  39  4 0 THE COURT:  And then tab 3 will be 932.  41 THE REGISTRAR:  Right.  42  43 (EXHIBIT 932:  Tab 3 of Plaintiff's Book II)  44  45 THE COURT:  Is this —  46 MR. RUSH:   Tab 4 are handwritten notes.  47 THE COURT:  In the Feast for — 13060  A. Mills (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 MR. RUSH:  This is the Funeral Feast for David Dennis, the  2 witness testified to that I think on the first day of  3 her evidence.  4 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  That will be 933.  5 THE REGISTRAR:  933.  6  7 (EXHIBIT 933:  Tab 4 of Plaintiff's Book II)  8  9 MR. RUSH:  And number five is Funeral Feast for George Nasidl  10 Madeek December 10, 1986.  11 THE COURT:  934.  12  13 (EXHIBIT 934:  Tab 5 of Plaintiff's Book II)  14  15 MR. RUSH:  And the sixth is the Funeral Feast of Jim George.  16 It's dated March 31, 1987 and I think the witness  17 indicated that that was after her opinion was tendered  18 and I don't really -- except to say that she did  19 attend the Feast subsequent to the tendering of her  20 opinion.  21 THE COURT:  It will be 935.  22  23 (EXHIBIT 935:  Tab 6 of Plaintiff's Book II)  24  25 MR. RUSH:  Funeral Feast of Frank Dennis, October 25.  26 THE COURT:  936.  27 THE REGISTRAR:  Tab 7?  2 8 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  29 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  30  31 (EXHIBIT 936:  Tab 7 of Plaintiff's Book II)  32  33 MR. RUSH:  Tab 8 is the Headstone Feast for Connie Tiljoe and  34 Matt Michell and that is dated October 12, '86.  35 THE COURT:  937.  36 MR. RUSH:  That's tab 8.  37  38 (EXHIBIT 937:  Tab 8 of Plaintiff's Book II)  39  40 MR. RUSH:  Tab 9 is the Funeral Feast of Mary Duncan.  938.  41  42 (EXHIBIT 938: Tab 9 of Plaintiff's Book II)  43  44 MR. RUSH:  And number ten is the Funeral Feast for Marvin  45 Morrison.  46 THE COURT:  Have you done 939?  I am sorry, have you done tab 9?  47 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  Tab 9, my lord, is Mary Duncan, Exhibit 938. 13061  A. Mills (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  2 THE REGISTRAR:  938.  3 MR. RUSH:  And number ten is the Funeral Feast for Martha  4 Morrison, June 10, 1986, 939.  5  6 (EXHIBIT 939:  Tab 10 of Plaintiff's Book II)  7  8 MR. RUSH:  Number eleven is the Funeral Feast of Susie Jimmy,  9 May 14, 1986.  10 THE COURT:  940.  11  12 (EXHIBIT 940:  Tab 11 of Plaintiff's Book II)  13  14 THE COURT:  What's that name?  Susie Jimmy, is it?  15 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  16 THE COURT:  S-u-s-i-e?  17 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  18 THE COURT:  That's 940.  19 MR. RUSH:  The Funeral Feast of Steve Morris, April 16, 1986.  20 THE COURT:  That will be 941.  21  22 (EXHIBIT 941: Tab 12 of Plaintiff's Book II)  23  24 MR. RUSH:  Tab 13 is the Funeral Feast of Mora Tait Tunen, March  25 26, '86.  2 6 THE COURT:  942.  27  28 (EXHIBIT 942: Tab 13 of Plaintiff's Book II)  29  30 MR. RUSH:  And the Headstone Feast for Vern George, July 7,  31 1985.  32 THE COURT:  943.  33  34 (EXHIBIT 943: Tab 14 of Plaintiff's Book II)  35  36 MR. RUSH:  And the Funeral Feast for Moses David, November 8.  37 THE COURT:  944.  38  39 (EXHIBIT 944:  Tab 15 of Plaintiff's Book II)  40  41 MR. RUSH:  1985.  That's 944.  And that completes the sequence.  42 THE COURT:  Yes.  43 MR. RUSH:  All right.  44 Q   Dr. Mills, would you please now turn to page 186.  45 Perhaps I shall begin on page 185 under the heading,  46 quote, "Law of Respect for Animals," end quote.  And  47 you cite a passage from Jenness in 1924.  You'll see 13062  A. Mills (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 at the bottom of 185 and over to 186 and that is  2 Jenness 1943?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And that, my lord, is at tab 24 of the Volume 2.  And  5 following that passage, Dr. Mills, you state in your  6 opinion, and I quote:  7  8 "Today, more than sixty years later, the  9 Wet'suwet'en say the same thing.  The Wet'suwet'en  10 know that they must treat the animals correctly if  11 they are to continue to enjoy their bounty.  If  12 they do not treat them correctly the animals will  13 not come to them or can harm them.  If they treat  14 them well they can also attain special or spirit  15 powers from them.  All these ways are continued  16 today."  17  18 End quote.  Now, when you referred here to the  19 Wet'suwet'en say the same thing, do I take it from  20 that that you mean by what Jenness reported his  21 informant saying in 1924?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   Okay.  Now, in terms of your sources regarding the  24 opinion you express at the top of 186, can you express  25 on what it is based that you say that these ways are  26 continued today?  27 A   One example would be Stanley Nikal describing that  28 since he had inadvertently committed an affront to the  29 animals, he had voluntarily refrained from hunting for  30 ten years, so as to let it be known that he recognized  31 that an affront had been made and so that he could  32 pacify the animals and could be expected after he had  33 in the certain sense done penance for the misdemeanor  34 of allowing moose meat to go rotten so that he could  35 then after this penance again hunt with success.  36 Q   And this is expressed by you on page 192 and 193?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And can you express if there are other sources for the  39 opinion expressed by you on page 186?  40 A   Yes.  It's a theme that's expressed commonly by the  41 Wet'suwet'en.  One of the most common story, Kungax,  42 that's retold by the Wet'suwet'en is the Kungax of  43 salmon and the salmon failing to come up the river or  44 even jumping off the drying racks if they are  45 offended.  46 Q   All right.  You also make reference on page 189 to an  47 interview that you reviewed of Mary George of April 13063  A. Mills (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 23, 1981.  And can you tell his lordship what the  2 significance of this is in terms of respect for the  3 animals?  And this deals with as you say at the top of  4 page 189 in the first full paragraph, the keeping the  5 flesh clean and respecting the meat during the period  6 of first menstruation.   What's the significance of  7 that practice in respect of the respect for animals?  8 A   The Wet'suwet'en consider it important that the  9 animals are given respect by not having menstruating  10 women eating fresh meat and it's particularly followed  11 at the time of the first menstruation, but it's  12 practiced also throughout a woman's life, and this is  13 a practice which is maintained today.  14 Q   And you refer as well to a comment by the late Chief  15 Samooh, S-a-m-o-o-h, Moses David at top of page 190.  16 Did you also rely on that interview of Moses David of  17 April 5, 1982?  18 A   I did.  19 Q   Now, the example that you give of Gyologyet,  20 G-y-o-l-o-g-y-e-t, and Dikyanulat,  21 D-i-k-y-a-n-u-1-a-t, what's the source of that  22 example, Dr. Mills?  23 A   Jenness 1943.  24 Q   Thank you.  25 A  As well as information from Johnny David in his  26 commissioned evidence.  27 Q   Yes.  And what -- what's the significance of that, if  28 I may ask you that, this particular example?  29 A  Well, this is an example in which it was discerned by  30 Gyologyet, a chief, a Wet'suwet'en chief, that another  31 chief had angered the bears by taking too many.  This  32 is a theme that occurs in the Kungax as well of the  33 Wet'suwet'en.  And as a result of this if there -- if  34 no inter-session was made, the chief could be expected  35 to suffer consequences which would be meeted out by  36 the animals in retaliation for this.  And in this  37 particular instance what happened was the chief  38 declined to have his friend intercede with the animals  39 for him because he had been warned by Father Morrice  40 that if he did so there would be even more dire  41 consequences.  42 Q   All right.  On 193 you indicate that the indigenous  43 sources of power continue and are mentioned casually  44 and frequently.  And you give the example of a  45 conversation which occurred in March of 1986.  Could  46 you just elaborate on that example, please?  What the  47 context was and if you recall who the speakers were? 13064  A. Mills (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   I was coming back with a party of Wet'suwet'en chiefs.  2 I had gone with them to observe their inviting of  3 people from the Babine Lake and Burns Lake to the  4 All-Clan Feast.  And this statement was made in the  5 context of stopping for a meal on our return --  6 return.  7 Q   And you indicate that this was made in March of 1986,  8 is that so?  9 A   Did I say March?  Yes.  Then it was March.  10 Q   Yes.  All right.  11 A   That's right.  12 Q   Do you recall who the speaker was?  13 A   It was Chief Dan Michell.  14 Q   Now, Dr. Mills, if you will please turn to page 197.  15 At the bottom of page 197 you say, and I quote:  16  17 "The Wet'suwet'en maintain their laws today as in  18 the past and govern themselves according to them,  19 with the exception of killing those who trespass.  20 The Wet'suwet'en maintain the integrity of their  21 clans, and practice the marriage and residence  22 laws, and pass on jurisdiction over their discrete  23 territories through the bestowing of the related  24 titles in the Feast hall.  The Wet'suwet'en  25 continue to respect the life forms on their  26 territories and recognize that those life forms  27 now include the white settlers."  28  29 End quote.  Now, is that -- does that summarize your  30 opinion with respect to the laws of the Wet'suwet'en  31 that you have described and given opinions about in  32 this particular chapter?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And with particular reference to the last sentence on  35 that paragraph, Dr. Mills, you indicate, and I quote:  36  37 "And recognize those life forms now include the  38 white settlers."  39  4 0 End quote.  And I am wondering what your basis for  41 your information is with particular to that opinion?  42 A   The Wet'suwet'en chiefs know that there are white  43 settlers in their territory.  They recognize that.  44 They aren't expecting them to go away.  They in fact  45 recognize -- have -- I attended a meeting at which it  46 was asked how they felt about that and they said that  47 they recognize that since they had come, they felt 13065  A. Mills (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  A  Q  A  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  that they were willing to grant them the right to  continue to live in their territories.  So the source of your information there was hereditary  chiefs of Wet'suwet'en people?  Yes.  And in pages 165 through to 198, dealing with the  Wet'suwet'en laws, do you adopt those pages as  reflective of your opinions and the facts upon which  you rely?  Yes.  Now, my lord, I am going to perhaps somewhat  prematurely ask that we adjourn until tomorrow  morning.  I have a very little amount left to cover.  I should think I'll be less than an hour tomorrow  morning, but with your lordship's permission I would  like to stand down now.  There is one or two things  I'd like to put to Dr. Mills.  Yes.  Thank you.  How long do counsel think they will be in  cross-examination?  Miss Koenigsberg, Mr. Mackenzie?  MACKENZIE:  My lord, we anticipated taking up the balance of  the time available with some time left for Mr. Rush's  re-examination.  COURT:  You mean counting Saturday?  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  COURT:  So we should plan on sitting Saturday should we?  MACKENZIE:  Unless we finish Friday, my lord.  RUSH:  Or Thursday.  How about tonight?  All right.  Well, I have to make  some plans and I take it that I can reasonably expect  that by sitting on Saturday we can finish this  witness.  Yes, I think so.  Miss Koenigsberg is not indicating anything at all.  KOENIGSBERG:  My understanding is that Mr. Mackenzie thinks  he will be about two days.  COURT:  Yes.  KOENIGSBERG:  And I am fast trying to cut down the amount of  time.  With reply, I don't know.  I mean I would  certainly hope and we will be striving to finish on  Saturday, but I am not certain.  Well, I think I have to be certain, because I am  needed in the Court of Appeal on Monday.  So we may  have to sit quite late on Saturday if that's the case.  MACKENZIE:  My lord, my comments were, of course, related to  the cross-examination that we have prepared as a  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MS.  THE  MS.  THE COURT  MR.  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT 13066  A. Mills (For Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Mr. Rush  1 result of the material that we have been given in a  2 timely way and it may be necessary, as I understand  3 it's been done in the past, that finish the  4 cross-examination subject to materials that have not  5 yet been provided or which were provided late in the  6 day.  7 THE COURT:  Well, we'll deal with that when the time comes. It's  8 a practical problem.  The witness lives and works in  9 Virginia.  I presume she will be going back there when  10 this is finished.  11 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  12 THE COURT:  Well, we have that problem.  But we'll deal with it  13 as best we can when the time comes.  All right.  Thank  14 you.  15  16 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL THURSDAY, MARCH 10, 1989  17 AT 10:00 A.M.)  18  19 I hereby certify the foregoing to be a true  20 and accurate transcript of the proceedings  21 herein to the best of my skill and ability.  22  23  24  25 Laara Yardley, Official Reporter,  26 United Reporting Service Ltd.  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47

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