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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-02-10] British Columbia. Supreme Court Feb 10, 1989

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 11757  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 February 10, 1989  2 Vancouver, B.C.  3  4 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  5 Columbia, Vancouver, this Friday, February 10, 1989,  6 calling the matter of Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty  7 the Queen at bar, my lord.  8 I caution the witness you're still under oath.  9 THE COURT:  Willms.  10 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, I'd just like to mark a couple of  11 documents that were produced yesterday.  The first one  12 is a letter of January 20th, 1987.  It's the complete  13 letter from Mr. Overstall to Dr. Rigsby, and although  14 we've already marked the first page Exhibit 881-26,  15 I'd like to mark this one separately as 881-A-9.  16 The second document is a letter dated April 22nd,  17 1986, from Mr. Overstall to Mr. —  18  19 (EXHIBIT 881-A-9:  Letter dated January 20, 1987 from  20 Mr. Overstall to Dr. Rigsby)  21  22 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, April?  23 MR. WILLMS:  April 22nd at 1986 from Mr. Overstall to Dr.  24 Rigsby.  It's about the interpreter's course, my lord,  25 and it appears to be the same kind of letter that went  26 to Dr. Kari which is at Exhibit 881-20, and so I'd ask  27 that this one be marked 881-A-10.  28 THE COURT:  All right.  And the first one, I'm sorry, it was —  29 what number was it originally, or the first page is  30 what number?  31 MR. WILLMS:  The first page of 881-A-9 can be found at 881-26.  32 THE COURT:  All right.  And this one has a companion, does it?  33 MR. WILLMS:  This one has a companion letter to Dr. Kari at  34 881-20.  35 THE COURT:  All right.  This one then will be 881-A-10.  36  37 (EXHIBIT 881-A-10: Letter dated April 22, 1986 from  38 Mr. Overstall to Dr. Rigsby)  39  40 MR. WILLMS:  Thank you.  41 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  42 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, except for my friend's position on Exhibit  43 883, I'm completed with Dr. Kari, but I don't want to  44 close my cross-examination unless my friend has no  45 objection to 883.  46 MS. MANDELL:  It's fine.  It can go in as a draft.  47 THE COURT:  All right.  883 will now become an exhibit by that 1175?  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 number.  All right.  Thank you, Mr. Willms.  2 MR. WILLMS:  My lord.  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay.  4  5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACAULAY:  6 Q   Could the witness be shown Exhibit 882?  It's a map.  7 Dr. Kari, at the south end of the -- your line,  8 the line you drew on this map?  9 A   Uh-huh.  10 Q   You show the north bank of Eutsuk Lake as part of the  11 boundary; is that right?  12 A  Well, yeah, there are Babine-Wet'suwet'en place-names  13 in that neighbourhood.  I mean, I'm not claiming I'm  14 real precise about this, but --  15 THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay, I don't understand that, I'm sorry.  16 You say the north bank of Ootsa Lake?  17 MR. MACAULAY:  Eutsuk Lake, E-u-t-s-u-k, my lord.  It's below  18 Whitesail Lake.  19 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, I thought you said Ootsa.  2 0 MR. MACAULAY:  Eutsuk.  21 THE COURT:  Oh, I see it.  Yes, thank you.  22 MR. MACAULAY:  23 Q   You drew the line there because you saw some  24 Wet'suwet'en place-names?  25 A  Well, from my knowledge of the geography, which I must  26 admit is pretty much secondhand, and -- in doing it  27 via paperwork rather than being in the country, and my  28 knowledge of the place-names and the general notion of  29 what people tell me what their traditional territory  30 was in a very general sense.  31 Q   Who told you about that traditional territory?  Who  32 was it who told you?  33 A   I -- it's probably a number of people that have  34 knowledge of the names.  I don't -- I haven't studied  35 or -- or -- the council's place-name corpus in  36 complete detail, but I just worked that out through  37 linguistic geography, dialectology, and the like.  The  38 usual methods I used for determining these other  39 boundaries too.  40 This is a zone.  I do want to say when I score a  41 line here I do not mean the Cheslatta people don't  42 know that area or -- I haven't researched it.  And  43 Cheslatta and Francois Lake people, for example, may  44 have different perceptions of this.  But it's in the  45 ballpark.  It's an approximate boundary in that  46 direction, sir.  47 Q   Is the name Eutsuk a Carrier name? 11759  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A   No.  It looks like Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  I think it's  2 K'exw wetsexw ben, but I'm not real sure.  3 THE COURT:  Just a moment.  Just a moment.  You have to spell  4 that for us, please.  5 THE WITNESS:   K-', accented e, x-w and then w-e-t-s, accented  6 e, x-w and then b-e-n.  7 MR. MACAULAY:  8 Q   And did you see that name on a map produced for you by  9 Marvin George?  10 A   No.  No.  I've seen the name in the corpus but not on  11 a map.  I've seen the name in various places.  I have  12 it in my notebook too.  I have that name from someone,  13 you know.  14 Q   That someone, did that someone live down near that  15 lake?  16 A  Well, it's probably various people.  I mean,  17 Athabaskan place-names are known by all the -- you  18 know, I mean they're not individual names.  They're --  19 the language -- the speakers of the language have  20 names, so I'd say several people know the name that I  21 just said, and I've heard it from, you know, several  22 people.  23 Q   What do the Cheslatta people call that lake?  24 A   I don't know.  That's a good question, but I don't  25 know.  I haven't done any field work on Cheslatta, but  26 Cheslatta is Central Carrier and not  27 Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  28 Q   All right.  You referred in your evidence a couple of  29 days ago to Borden.  Do you remember your reference to  30 Mr. Borden and his archaeological work?  31 A   I saw the citation, but I've never seen the paper  32 that -- it stuck in my mind as something that would be  33 perhaps interesting, but I haven't read that Borden  34 report or book or monograph or whatever it is.  But it  35 did stick in my mind when I saw Borden 1951 has 60  36 something sites around Ootsa Lake I thought, not this  37 lake.  38 Q   No.  39 A   But I haven't seen Borden 1951.  4 0 MR. MACAULAY:   Could the witness be shown Exhibit 847, tab 2 0?  41 847 is an exhibit that was marked when Sylvia Albright  42 was giving evidence.  43 THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay, are we finished with the map?  4 4 MR. MACAULAY:  No, my lord.  4 5 THE COURT:  No.  4 6 MR. MACAULAY:  47 Q   This -- Dr. Kari, this is a monograph by Mr. Borden, 11760  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Dr. Borden, and it may be the one that you were  2 referring to.  It's entitled "Results of  3 Archaeological Investigations in Central British  4 Columbia", and at page -- it starts at page 31, but I  5 want to draw your attention to page 34, about the  6 middle of the page.  You can see on that page the  7 author is discussing this southern area?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   The area around Whitesail Lake.  About the middle of  10 the page the author says:  11  12 "The Cheslatta made annual trips to  13 Tahtsa, Whitesail, Eutsuk, and other lakes  14 of this area to hunt mountain-goat, bear,  15 and caribou, and to gather berries."  16  17 And then a little further down, a couple of  18 paragraphs down, the author mentions that:  19  20 "The Cheslatta are now almost extinct.  21 Only a few of their ancestors survived  22 repeated smallpox epidemics in the early  23 part of the last century.  Later in the  24 nineteenth century the Bulkley River Carrier  25 took over much of the former hunting  26 territory of their ill-fated neighbours."  27  28 And then he refers to Jenness at page 475, which  29 is also an exhibit.  And you hadn't seen that  30 anthropological reference?  31 A   That is correct.  I've never seen this article before.  32 Q   And you're not in a position to say whether or not  33 that is a reasonably accurate reconstruction of what  34 had happened in that southern area?  35 A   I haven't researched Cheslatta territory and it --  36 from what I know about Athabaskan territory, I mean  37 these folks could easily have mutual territory.  38 Q   Yes.  39 A   So, you know -- and there are ways to show that.  One  40 of the points I made in this paper you wanted to have  41 faxed up from Seattle or whatever, the toponymic  42 knowledge is that Athabaskan place-names are stable  43 across language boundaries so that a person may speak  44 his own language and see a name, and then the other  45 person may speak his language and see a name and it's  46 a common place-name with the phonetic values of the  47 different languages of the respective speaker.  So 11761  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 that's a very normal thing.  2 If there's a mutual boundary say in this area,  3 what you'd probably find is Cheslatta would say it in  4 a Carrier pronunciation, and the Babine-Wet'suwet'en  5 would say it in a Babine-Wet'suwet'en pronunciation.  6 So this could be an overlapping area from the point of  7 view of traditional territory.  It wouldn't surprise  8 me in the least, but I have not researched it.  9 MS. MANDELL:  Excuse me, my lord.  I hesitate to rise in the  10 middle of cross, but I do think that in fairness to  11 the fact that Mr. -- Dr. Kari hasn't read the paper  12 and so he wouldn't be an expert on it for redirect  13 that Mr. Macaulay should read the sentence that  14 follows the first that he read on gathering berries  15 because it says:  "As indicated earlier, salmon did  16 not enter the streams and lakes of Cheslatta  17 territory."  And I don't want the ambiguity to be left  18 on the record that Dr. Borden is saying that the area  19 around Whitesail is Cheslatta territory.  He follows  20 to say that salmon didn't enter the streams of  21 Cheslatta territory.  22 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, I'm not going to read that sentence. My  23 friend can read it in re-examination if she wants to.  24 THE COURT:  All right.  2 5 MR. MACAULAY:  I don't even know what it means.  Anyhow the  26 witness has not read this before and that was --  27 THE COURT:  He's made it apparent that he hasn't read it, so he  28 can't be expected to say: Oh, yes, but he says  29 something else somewhere else.  3 0 MR. MACAULAY:  31 Q   Now, how many residents of the Francois Lake area did  32 you interview?  You refer to them I think as speakers?  33 A   Speakers, yes.  34 Q   That means people that speak the Wet'suwet'en or  35 Babine-Wet'suwet'en language?  36 A   Uh-huh.  37 Q   That you have interviewed?  38 A   Yes.  Please keep in mind that I don't have to take  39 notes on certain things when I'm working on an  40 Athabaskan language.  I can observe from social  41 interaction what language they use, and I have a  42 memory for that.  So my notebook wouldn't detail it,  43 but I mainly worked with about four people, but the  44 notes are predominantly with one.  There were four  45 different speakers of Francois, and also keep in mind  46 that Dr. Hargus was with me and she has her own notes.  47 Q   Well, I'm not asking about Dr. Hargus' notes, but 11762  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 you -- who was the principal speaker that you dealt  2 with at Francois Lake?  3 A  Well, more than any other a young man about my age  4 named Francis Skin.  5 Q   And does Francis Skin live on Francois Lake?  6 A   Yes.  But they formerly were over at Ootsa I guess,  7 Mary Skin.  I met his mother.  8 Q   And Mary Skin was another that you --  9 A   Yes.  I had notes with -- yeah, I did the kinship -- I  10 thought that it would be specially significant to do  11 kinship terms with Mary Skin so we did because that  12 would tell you quite a bit too in addition to the  13 phonetic information that -- mainly Hargus and I were  14 working on the phonetics and the dialectology, but I  15 did do some kinship terms, and I didn't do very much  16 in the way of place-name geography and that sort of  17 stuff.  18 Q   And two others?  19 A   Yes, I can't remember their names now.  I know there  20 was some cousins and sisters and different people with  21 the Skin family, and I also met some of the Morrises,  22 and I met Thomas, his last name is Thomas, who's been  23 the chief there, the Nitahibun band.  24 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, the name?  25 THE WITNESS:   John Thomas.  Is that his name or —  2 6    THE COURT:  What was the name of the band?  27 THE WITNESS:   The Nitahibun band is — they spell —  28 N-i-t-a-h-i-b-u-n is how they spell it in, you know,  29 in their -- for their band.  N-i-t-h-a-h-i.  3 0    MR. MACAULAY:  31 Q   Were all four speakers members related, members of the  32 same family?  33 A   Not the same household, no.  There was some, I mean,  34 cousins and whatnot.  We met a number of speakers who,  35 you know, I can tell speak a Francois Lake or what  36 we're calling Francois Lake, but say a southern  37 Babine-Wet'suwet'en dialect, a more southerly  38 Babine-Wet'suwet'en dialect, and I -- but you must  39 understand that I'm very observant and I heard a  40 15-year-old teenager speaking this language, a very  41 young guy talking to his grandmother or  42 great-grandmother, Mary Skin, and I heard him speaking  43 to her in what is obviously Wet'suwet'en language and  44 not Central Carrier.  45 Q   And were they -- all members related?  46 A   Oh, I'm sure through, you know, cousins and, you know,  47 not -- in the usual way that Athabaskans are related. 11763  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   Well, there was Mary Skin, her son --  2 A   Francis.  3 Q   Her grandson, the 15-year-old?  4 A   Yeah, probably grandson.  5 Q   And —  6 A  And then Francis Skin has a sister who lives in  7 Cheslatta, is married to a Cheslatta person or  8 something, and I cannot remember her name.  And then  9 some other guy came up who has another name.  I can't  10 remember him.  We were sitting out in the sun in front  11 of Francis Skin's trailer and different people would  12 come up and speak their language, you know, so --  13 Q   And that was on Francois Lake was it?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   You made one stop on Francois Lake did you?  16 A   No, we were there repeatedly for a week in August of  17 this year.  We -- Hargus and I were based at Francois  18 Lake where the ferry runs across the lake, you know,  19 the B.C. ferry.  We were staying right there, and we  20 were over at Francois quite a bit in August.  21 Q   And did you cross the lake?  22 A   On the ferry, yes.  23 Q   On the ferry?  24 A   Uh-huh.  25 Q   And I think you've been asked if you went to Grassy  26 Plains?  27 A  Well, yes, that's where the Nitahibun band office is.  28 Q   Yes.  And did you -- oh, you went to the Nitahibun  29 band office?  30 A   Oh, yes, got permission to work in the area.  31 Q   Did you work out of the Nitahibun band office?  32 A   No, we worked at the Skin -- they call it Skin's  33 reserve or something, Skin reserve number two or  34 something like that.  I don't know, but we worked over  35 there at their reserve.  36 Q   And you met -- did you meet any Cheslatta while you  37 were there?  38 A   Yes, I met some Cheslatta people too, but I wasn't  39 working on their language.  40 Q   You didn't interview them and -- in the way a linguist  41 would interview them?  42 A   Didn't have time, sir.  43 Q   And did you go any farther south than Grassy Plains?  44 A  We made a drive through the -- that beautiful country,  45 but we weren't even working then.  That was on our day  46 off.  47 Q   But that was tourism was it? 11764  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A   Sure.  2 Q   So that the line that you draw, which is well south of  3 Ootsa Lake?  4 A   Uh-huh.  5 Q   And south of Whitesail Lake?  6 A   Uh-huh.  7 Q   And at the south-west end goes farther south than that  8 still?  9 A   Uh-huh.  10 Q   Is based on what you know of place-names?  11 A  And also from what I've seen of that -- some of the  12 maps that -- they're a part of the -- of the claim.  13 Q   Right.  It is also based on the maps you were shown by  14 the council?  15 A  Well, I had one.  I had only one map years ago that I  16 would assume is perhaps superseded.  I don't know.  17 It's a colour map.  It has red and greenish tints and  18 they talk about territories and so forth, so I have  19 used some of their maps.  But I call this a zone, Mr.  20 Macaulay.  I'm very certainly cognizant of overlapping  21 ways of perceiving territory, and that is a reality  22 too.  I'm not saying Whitesail is here and Ootsa there  23 and Eutsuk there, and the speakers here don't -- and  24 the speakers there don't have interaction that  25 would -- I do assume that Cheslatta has a -- if we  26 knew Cheslatta traditional territory, that it wouldn't  27 be at all surprising that there's an overlap, and  28 that's the real world too, you know.  29 Q   And then you drew the western boundary on the basis of  30 the same basis, the combination of looking at maps and  31 place-names?  32 A   That one is out of oral knowledge from people at Burns  33 Lake and Takla Lake.  34 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Mr. Kari, but I thought you said  35 yesterday that that western line was the height of  36 land?  37 THE WITNESS:   Oh, the western, I meant the eastern.  3 8    MR. MACAULAY:  39 Q   Western.  4 0 A   Oh, I thought you meant --  41 Q   On the left-hand side?  42 A   Okay.  Okay.  Yeah, yes.  Yes, sir, that's the height  43 of the land, so that's -- also that does seem to  44 conform with the pronunciation of all the place-names  45 of the river drainages that come from that direction  46 is that they are Babine-Wet'suwet'en place-names.  And  47 I can tell the difference between a Carrier place-name 11765  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 and a Babine-Wet'suwet'en place-name.  I mean, a  2 certain percentage would be the same name and they  3 would be identically pronounced, but a certain --  4 probably through analysis of the phonetic value of the  5 place-names, you can determine the language that the  6 place-name is in.  So I haven't done all the  7 place-names work either, I just have a feel for -- for  8 the data being -- I've seen quite a bit of place-name  9 data in the language that is consistent with the other  10 data in the language that I have that, such as vowell  11 quality.  12 Q   Well, are you following a height of land?  13 A   Yes, that's a height of land there.  That's, you know,  14 probably quite often a very reasonable way that  15 Athabaskan language boundaries are reflected.  16 Q   And these lines are meant to show in a general way --  17 A   Uh-huh.  18 Q   -- where you find Babine-Wet'suwet'en speakers?  19 A   You mean literally where they live?  20 Q   Well, yes, isn't that what this is supposed to show?  21 A   The height of land that —  22 Q   No, no, the area --  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   — inside?  25 A   Yes.  Yes.  I mean, our exhibit -- our leaf five in  26 the binder, you know, the -- of the evidence, is a  27 very cautiously worded approximation of the  2 8 Babine-Wet'suwet'en language boundary from my  29 perception of it from over several years, you know,  30 before this.  You know, I'm a specialist in Athabaskan  31 ethnogeography.  32 Q   Now, as long ago as 1975 you met many  33 Babine-Wet'suwet'en speakers at Hagwilget?  34 A   Yes, quite a few at Hagwilget, but I hadn't travelled  35 much.  In '75 and '78 I was at Hagwilget and  36 Moricetown, and I do write down place-names when, you  37 know, not -- more or less as a byproduct of my work.  38 Q   And have you included Hagwilget in your area?  39 A  Well, I didn't out of respect for the Gitksan notion  40 of their territory there.  41 Q   That was a political basis, purely -- solely and  42 purely a political basis for part of your boundary; a  43 modern political basis for it?  44 A   But I think that does conform to quite a bit of  45 place-names evidence too.  I mean, there is such a  46 thing as dual place-names, Mr. Macaulay.  Do you know  47 what I mean by that? 11766  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   Dual.  Well, that means --  2 A   Duo, two, yes.  Like the same name has -- the same  3 feature has two or more names.  4 Q   Yes.  5 A  And —  6 Q   We see that all over the map don't we?  We see  7 Whitesail Lake which has quite another name, for  8 instance?  That's a dual name isn't it?  The  9 Wet'suwet'en don't call that lake Whitesail?  10 A   The -- you want my recollection of how they call it?  11 Q   Yes.  12 A  Wesel ben.  W-e, accented e-s accented e-1.  13 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, I've lost your spelling.  Again, please?  14 THE WITNESS:   Wesel ben.  15 THE COURT:  Yes.  Can you spell it again, please?  16 THE WITNESS:   W, accented e-s, accented e-1 and then b-e-n.  I  17 mean, that's my recollection of how say Mary Skin  18 might call the name.  19 MR. MACAULAY:  20 Q   But there are -- there are two names?  21 A   English —  22 Q   It's bilingual?  There's English and Wet'suwet'en?  23 A   Yes, sir.  24 Q   And you're saying that up in the Hagwilget area you  25 find Wet'suwet'en and Gitksan?  26 A   Yes, sir.  Well, people are multilingual in Hagwilget,  27 so --  28 Q   But the only reason you haven't included Hagwilget is  29 because the Gitksan say that there's a boundary?  30 A  Well, sure.  I could use my approach and say that on  31 the western side I would -- I would draw it different  32 in a zone sense than -- as long as people understood  33 that I'm not being political.  34 Q   But aren't you being political when you draw the line  35 along Portry Creek?  36 A  Well, I guess you could say I'm being political, but I  37 do approach this through a consistent series of  38 methods that I do for place-names research, and of  39 course in Alaska nobody's in court over their land  40 claims in Alaska.  I have a lot of experience doing  41 this kind of thing.  42 Q   Well, you have a free hand in Alaska?  You can put  43 boundaries where you like without regard to political  44 considerations?  45 A  Well —  46 Q   I shouldn't say where you like.  Where your  47 scholarship takes you? 11767  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A   Yes, that's -- yes, sir.  Yes, sir.  This is where our  2 scholarship has taken us say, to respond to your  3 question, but that's not my scholarship.  That's my  4 colleague's scholarship.  5 Q   Your colleague's.  But you have applied a different  6 technique here in regard to Hagwilget.  There are lots  7 of Wet'suwet'en there?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   But it's outside the area that you show?  10 A   Yes.  Well, I would say there's a zone, an interfaced  11 zone, in fact we know this, that there's an interfaced  12 zone with Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en on that area.  So  13 that interfaced zone might have been further west a  14 hundred years ago, two hundred years ago, and now it's  15 right, you know, right around Hagwilget.  That's  16 exactly the dynamics here in terms of the prehistory.  17 Q   But this map is meant to show what, today?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   What's going on today?  20 A   1988.  Yes, sir.  21 Q   In 1988?  22 A   Yes, sir.  23 Q   And in 1988 the second largest Wet'suwet'en settlement  24 is at Hagwilget?  25 A   Yes.  Yes, Mr. Macaulay.  26 Q   And Hagwilget is outside your -- the line that you  2 7 have drawn?  28 A   Yeah, I realize that.  I realize that.  29 Q   Are there any other areas where you were constrained  30 by the character of the Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en claim  31 in that way?  32 A   Not significantly.  I mean, I know Hagwilget is -- I  33 mean, everybody who knows Hagwilget people say that  34 the Gitksan claim this is their area and allow them to  35 come back as of 1820 when the rock slide fell, so --  36 or whatever that date was when, you know, the -- there  37 was a blockage of the river.  So that's not unusual  38 information at all concerning Hagwilget.  Now, up --  39 up in Takla Lake and in that area, that's more or  40 less, as some people at Takla Landing were saying, it  41 is no question that Sekani is east of Takla Lake and  42 that Babine-Wet'suwet'en is west of Takla Lake.  And  43 as you go north up there, I haven't researched it, but  44 I would say certainly Babine-Wet'suwet'en names go up  45 somewhere up that Driftwood River, and at some point  46 that's the northern point.  I can't -- I have not  47 researched that, Mr. Macaulay. 1176?  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   Do you find Sekani names up north in the Driftwood  2 River area?  3 A   Yeah, they start coming into the picture there right  4 at Takla and going to the east.  Sekani origin names  5 have a distinctive character to them as well  6 pronunciation wise.  7 Q   There is a river up there called the Sicitine or  8 Sicitine?  9 A   I don't see where you're --  10 Q   Well, this isn't a very good map, but does that --  11 does the name Sicitine or Sicitine, does that sound  12 like a Sekani name?  13 A  Where?  14 MS. MANDELL:  Where are we?  15 THE WITNESS:   I can't — I can't see this Xerox very well.  16 Like Oslinga, if you want some examples.  I see some  17 Sekani hydronyms on the map.  18 MS. MANDELL:  Spell it.  19 THE WITNESS:   Well, Oslinga is, I just saw it here,  20 O-s-1-i-n-g-a.  That's a Sekani origin place-name.  21 See, you can tell these:  Gah, g-a-h is Sekani for  22 river; ko is Central Carrier for river, k-o; and qwah  23 is Babine-Wet'suwet'en for river, so they all have  24 autonomous or pronunciations of the hydronym for  25 river, and that's a very good indication of the  26 provenience of the language of that name.  It's a very  27 good indication, Mr. Macaulay.  2 8    MR. MACAULAY:  2 9 Q   Right.  30 A   Excuse me.  Qwah is q-w-a-h.  31 Q   And were you over at Takla Landing in the course of  32 your investigations?  33 A   Yes, Mr. Macaulay.  34 Q   And you've -- you found some Sekani there?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Yes.  My friend has mentioned that the Sicitine River  37 is mentioned at page 66 of your report.  You say --  38 what you're saying is:  39  40 "The Sicitine river gains its name in English  41 from Sigint'ayn", S-i-g-i-n-t-'-a-y-n,  42 "which some Gitksan elders recognize as  43 coming from an Athabaskan language."  44  45 And that's why I asked you if that happened to  46 be -- that name --  47 A   I'm looking at my copy of the report. 11769  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   Page 66?  2 A   Sixty-six.  3 Q   I'm sure your copy is the same.  4 A   Yes, that -- I don't even know where this river is,  5 Mr. Macaulay, so I -- I'd prefer an accurate -- before  6 I answer your question --  7 Q   Where is it?  8 A   Yes, where is it.  9 Q   All right.  We'll get a map out and find it.  I'm  10 showing the witness the unmarked federal map just for  11 convenience, my lord.  This is a -- just a map showing  12 the outline of the claim area and there's the Sicitine  13 range here and the Sicintine River to the west of  14 that?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   So that's where you'll find it?  17 A   Yeah, well, this is a name that's in our report as  18 reported by Gitksan speakers, and the sophisticated  19 question is what would the Babine-Wet'suwet'en call  20 that, and I do not know, or the Sekani, what do the  21 Sekani call it too, I do not know.  All I know is  22 what's in the report was reported by Gitksan speakers  23 and it's possible the Gitksan speakers have Athabaskan  24 origin place-names in the Gitksan place-name corpus.  25 And I would like to add, your lordship, I haven't seen  26 a Gitksan place-names corpus at all.  Please don't  27 assume that I have knowledge of a lot of Gitksan  28 place-names supplied by Gitksan speakers.  I've seen a  29 few.  This one Rigsby had from his notes and it's in  30 our report as coming from a Gitksan speaker.  So this  31 is exactly this notion of a multilingual interface  32 between Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en.  It's entirely  33 consistent with the larger thrust of our report, that  34 there was a multilingual zone and an interface.  35 Q   Well, the Sekani used to live around or were around  36 Bear Lake until --  37 A   That seems to be the case too.  38 Q   And the Babine-Wet'suwet'en also were there?  39 A   They've been there too.  40 Q   And the Gitksan?  41 A   Yes, sir.  42 Q   Yes.  So that was -- that's a very good example of a  43 multilingual area?  44 A   Yes.  And, for example, Peggy Quock, who -- Mr. Willms  45 had a Xerox of some of our Iskut notes, and Peggy  46 Quock -- classic border area to the north.  Her mother  47 was from Bear Lake and spoke Bear Lake-Sekani.  She 11770  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 grew up in caribou hide and still remembers Sekani and  2 Talhtan.  So that's a classic typical case of  3 Athabaskans knowing a couple of languages.  They're --  4 at their home in Iskut they're speaking Tahltan and  5 Sekani today this very day, or she can speak both.  6 And so I would say good research in the area should  7 deal with multiple names for the same feature, and it  8 hasn't been done yet for -- you know, say for this  9 claim case.  I think that the place-names data has a  10 lot more to contribute to prehistory in the area.  And  11 these folks -- I'm impressed with what they've done in  12 their -- this is native research coming out of  13 Hazelton and I'm impressed with their research, you  14 know.  And I -- and again I haven't seen the Gitksan  15 place-names where I could say to a speaker from up  16 around Bear Lake, say "Do you know this name here?",  17 that you asked me, and "How do you call it in Sekani,  18 Babine, Wet'suwet'en, and Gitksan?", the same man.  19 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, there's a matter I have to attend to.  20 MR. MACAULAY:  With your lordship's leave we'll straighten this  21 out.  22 THE COURT:  I'll only be ten minutes.  23  24 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR MORNING RECESS)  25  26 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  27 a true and accurate transcript of the  28 proceedings herein transcribed to the  29 best of my skill and ability.  30  31    32 Tanita S. French  33 Official Reporter  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 11771  J. Kari (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED PURSUANT TO THE MORNING BREAK)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Sorry, Mr. Macaulay, for the interruption.  5 MR. MACAULAY:  6 Q   Dr. Kari, the Wet'suwet'en, the Babine-Wet'suwet'en  7 are largely bilingual in the sense that they almost  8 all speak English now?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And you know that the European population has been in  11 the Bulkley Valley for almost a hundred years?  12 A   Even longer than that, I guess.  Isn't there some --  13 well, in some numbers, yes.  A hundred years, yes.  14 Q   Give or take.  15 A   Um hum.  16 Q   And the European descendant population in the Bulkley  17 Valley is larger than the Wet'suwet'en population?  18 A   Is it?  19 Q   I'm asking you if you know whether it is or not.  20 A  Well, it probably is, I guess.  21 Q   And that the railroad goes from south to north right  22 through that valley?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And in the last hundred years the -- there was a  25 change of religion?  26 A   Yes, sir.  27 Q   150 years.  2 8 A   Um hum.  29 Q   All those factors would have an effect on the spoken  30 language of any race or nation?  31 A   Yes, sir.  32 Q   And the language is, in part anyhow, a reflection of  33 the way in which people think?  34 A   Yes, sir.  35 Q   When religious changes started in pre-European  36 times -- you've heard of Bini, haven't you?  37 A   Yes, sir.  38 Q   And that appeared to be a marked shift in religious  39 thought or perception, Bini's teachings, doctrine?  40 A   Yes, I know about it indirectly or -- well, you know,  41 I've heard some -- I've read some of the literature  42 about Bini.  I've read Barbeau 1929.  4 3 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  44 THE COURT:  Do we have a common spelling for Bini?  45 MR. MACAULAY:  B-i-n-i is the way it appears in Jenness at any  46 rate.  47 THE WITNESS:  And that's just the way I spell it. 11772  J. Kari (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Our computers won't work if  2 we don't spell it the same way as the reporter.  3 MR. MACAULAY:  4 Q   And then after Bini the Christian missionaries came  5 and had a profound effect on the religious outlook of  6 the Wet'suwet'en?  7 A   Yes, sir.  8 Q   Starting with Father LeJacque, as I understand it, in  9 about 1868 or thereabouts?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   And speakers today -- no speaker today can recall the  12 time before all those changes took place, not even  13 Mary Skin?  14 A   Yes, Mr. Macaulay.  15 Q   Jenness and Morice probably -- well -- were in a  16 position to deal with people who did remember the old  17 order of things?  18 A   It's -- yes, Mr. Macaulay, especially Morice, being in  19 there in the 1880's and -- much earlier than Jenness.  20 Q   Jenness was doing his field work in the 1920's, wasn't  21 he?  22 A   Yes, yes.  23 Q   1923, '24?  24 A   Something like that.  25 Q   And one of the things I've noticed because -- in the  26 process of the interpretation of a witness' evidence  27 is that whenever there's a question of numerals or of  28 a date --  2 9 A   Um hum.  30 Q   -- that the speaker of Wet'suwet'en will use English.  31 Have you noted that?  32 A   Oh, if he said 1915, he would say that in English.  33 Q   In English?  34 A   Yes, I've heard that.  But can I mention I was on the  35 Navajo reservation last summer and I heard the  36 Saturday football scores all in Navajo.  I mean last  37 fall.  So --  38 Q   Well, is there a Wet'suwet'en -- a Babine-Wet'suwet'en  39 word for thousand?  40 A   Yeah -- yes, yes.  Wenizet Wenize.  That means ten  41 hundreds.  W-e-n-i-z-accented e-t, and then the same  42 way again without the "t" on it.  43 THE COURT:  Was that one "e" or two "e's"?  44 THE WITNESS:  Wenizet Wenize is a thousand.  45 THE COURT:  W-e-n-i-z-e accented-t?  46 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  47 THE COURT:  Okay. 11773  J. Kari (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 MR. MACAULAY:  2 Q   And for ten thousand you just add to --  3 A   You could carry it on.  4 Q   -- prefix ten?  5 A  Well, you could probably say it three times.  6 Q   You say it three times?  7 A   I imagine, but I have never heard anybody say it.  8 Q   Oh.  Well, have English words been absorbed into the  9 Wet'suwet'en language?  10 A   Not as much as the French word during the fur trade  11 era.  And I was going to address some of that.  It  12 would be real interesting linguistic project to look  13 at that strata of Metis-French loanwords in the  14 language.  We have a lot of them in our notes.  And I  15 don't speak French and my colleague Hargus does and so  16 on and so forth.  But that's a nice problem to look  17 at, especially French being borrowed into the language  18 much more than English.  19 Q   Well, the early missionaries were French-speaking  20 speakers --  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   -- weren't they?  23 A   Yes, oblates.  2 4 Q   And what —  25 A   Oblate order.  O-b-1-a-t-e.  2 6 Q   And what they heard in church every Sunday would have  27 an effect on the language?  28 A   Yes, Mr. Macaulay.  That's where you get these words  29 for rosary and apostle and various --  30 Q   And there was also at quite an early date -- I'm  31 talking about the fur trade -- a revolution in the  32 economy, wasn't there, brought on by the Hudson Bay  33 posts and buying furs?  34 A   Is that the term they use these days, a revolution?  35 Q   Well —  36 A   I -- but, anyway, yes.  There was a change in their  37 economy.  Would you describe that as a revolution?  38 Q   Like the industrial revolution.  It's a form of  39 revolution.  4 0 A   Oh.  41 Q   And the introduction of trade goods also had a  42 pronounced effect --  43 A   Yes, Mr. Macaulay.  44 Q   -- on language?  45 A   Yes.  In some cases Babine makes up -- Babine -- I  4 6 mean, they have a charming word for rice.  I can't  47 remember it.  But there's some real interesting names 11774  J. Kari (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 for the first time they saw rice and beans.  Like one  2 of them is Tsalek Meq.  That's beans.  3 Q   You better spell that.  4 A   T-s-a-1-e-k second word M-accented e-q.  And that is  5 the arctic ground squirrel's kidney.  6 Q   And isn't the word for tin cup the same as the word  7 for varmint or is that in Gitksan?  8 A   You got me there.  9 Q   Well, don't all those changes make it more difficult  10 to study the -- to come to conclusions about the  11 language that you're hearing today?  12 A   No, not at all, Mr. Macaulay.  They only enrich it and  13 add an historical dimension.  I mean, when I say these  14 words like I did on Monday for highbush cranberry  15 in -- in British Columbia and in two other Alaskan  16 languages, that's obviously a different strata of time  17 for those words to be related in these two languages,  18 or three languages in this case separated by say 1,500  19 miles.  So the historical dimension doesn't in any way  20 corrupt the data that a linguist would want to get; it  21 only adds an historical dimension to the data, which  22 is itself rich.  And I do think in terms of this fur  23 trade impact, the fur trade, it's a good research  24 topic to look strictly at -- at post-contact lexical  25 elaboration in the language.  And they don't just  26 borrow lapose (phonetic) for hay fork or something  27 like that.  They have -- like I said, the squirrel's  28 kidney is beans, and it's -- it's charming and  29 interesting issues in the language in the -- in the  30 post-contact time, and you can usually see that  31 strata.  My stem list or our stem list is right here.  32 I do not want that document Xeroxed and circulated,  33 but I -- I've given it to you as evidence, but we have  34 a lot of good material there that -- you know -- we --  35 we feel is -- you know -- does contribute to things  36 such as post-contact use of technology or post-contact  37 use of vocabulary relating to Catholicism or  38 Anglicism.  In all cases that's linguistic inform-  39 ation.  On the other hand, that's a very small part of  40 the fact that Babine-Wet'suwet'en is a spoken  41 language, and it's all basically Athabaskan in  42 structure.  43 Q   There is the Wet'suwet'en version of the Athabaskan  44 language spoken at Hagwilget today?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And you have ancient words being used at Hagwilget?  47 A   In some case you can seriate the vocabulary if 11775  J. Kari (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 that's -- yes, yes, you can.  2 Q   They use the same ancient words as the people of  3 Moricetown?  4 A  And the Navajo reservation too.  5 Q   But you can't draw the conclusion from that that the  6 Wet'suwet'en were at Hagwilget from ancient times?  7 A   That's not the only -- you mean in terms of the  8 location of Hagwilget itself?  9 Q   Yes.  10 A  Well, I would certainly be able to present lots of  11 linguistic evidence that they'd been on the Bulkley  12 River.  I mean, whether -- whether it's Dizdlegh,  13 D-i-z-d-1-e -- accented e -- excuse me -- g-h, or  14 Qayexweget, K -- excuse me -- Q-a-y-e-x-w-e-g-e-t,  15 that's the name for Moricetown, or Tse -- excuse me, I  16 said it wrong -- Tse Kax, T-s-e with a diaeresis, two  17 dots, diaeresis, K-a-x.  That's the old name for  18 Hagwilget.  That's an Athabaskan name for Hagwilget,  19 and it -- the village of Hagwilget, which means  20 beneath the rock.  21 Q   Well, is that an ancient word?  22 A   Yes, sir.  23 Q   The one -- the word for Hagwilget?  24 A  Well, the stems are in proto-Athabaskan, Tse and Kax,  25 so that's an ancient word.  2 6 MR. MACAULAY:  Right.  27 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, there's no way the reporter can  28 transcribe that.  There was a Wet'suwet'en word  29 slipped in there for pronunciation.  I don't know what  3 0 it was.  31 THE WITNESS:  Well, the stems — the two —  32 THE COURT:  Just a minute.  I'm sorry, we've got to straighten  33 this out before you go on.  Madam Reporter, was there  34 a word there?  35 THE REPORTER:  You said Tse and Kax.  36 THE WITNESS:  Kax.  Yeah, I just said the name Tse Kax two  37 times.  I think I said that Tse and Kax both are  38 proto-Athabaskan stems.  On the one hand one means  39 rock, and the other one is a post position that has  40 various meanings in different languages including  41 beneath and along, and it's a little harder to  42 translate than the first one.  The first one is in  43 Navajo and --  4 4 MR. MACAULAY:  45 Q   The word Tse?  46 A   Is in Navajo.  You said it just like a Navajo word.  47 MR. MACAULAY:  No, Doctor, that's the Scotch dialect. 11776  J. Kari (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 THE COURT:  He was just talking Gaelic.  2 MR. MACAULAY:  3 Q   But even though the Wet'suwet'en term for Hagwilget  4 has an ancient origin, one of them being Tse, you  5 can't draw the conclusion from that that the  6 settlement at Hagwilget was an ancient one?  7 A  Well, not -- I agree, Mr. Macaulay, not just from that  8 one name.  Then you put it in the matrix of the other  9 data that we know and have, and then you can safely  10 say that they probably were the Bulkley River people  11 all the way to the mouth of the Bulkley, which is --  12 isn't that right there at Hagwilget?  13 Q   Hagwilget is near the mouth of the Bulkley.  14 A   Yeah, I would draw the precontact boundary around  15 there -- you know -- without getting into some  16 nit-picking about Gitksan territory, and -- you  17 know -- I would draw a zone in that area.  18 Q   And can you say that they were at -- on the basis of  19 linguistics that in ancient times they were at Grassy  20 Plains, down in that area?  21 A   Oh, most likely they were.  22 Q   Well, why do you say most likely?  23 A  Well, I'll say most definitely they were.  2 4 Q   And why?  25 A  Well, because it just makes perfect sense.  Like I  26 mentioned this headwaters hypothesis of mine, that  27 Athabaskans tend to occupy headwaters, and then -- you  28 know -- that's one -- one -- you know -- one way I  29 would reason it out.  I -- I would reason these out  30 using various kinds of information, but it's also very  31 interesting to me that the most conservative speaker  32 we worked with a lot last summer was this young man  33 from around the Francois Lake and -- you know --  34 Q   That conservative speaker presumably learned his  35 language from his parents and grandparents?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And his parents and grandparents lived in an isolated  38 place?  39 A   Relatively isolated, yes.  40 Q   By comparison with Moricetown?  41 A   I guess you're right, yes.  42 Q   Would that account for the conservative character of  43 the language?  44 A   Could be one explanation if -- if the F-Mutation Rule  45 is a sound change in progress as -- as Hargus and Kari  46 are -- have documented in our dialect survey.  It's --  47 it's interesting that that rule has not fully taken 11777  J. Kari (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 place in the Francois Lake dialect so -- this is  2 microdialectology that I started referring to, but --  3 you know -- the main thing is that the Babine-  4 Wet'suwet'en dialects are so close to each other that  5 it doesn't really -- it's not -- this is not a beauty  6 contest or something where we want to say Francois  7 Lake is the most conservative.  You know, it's -- you  8 know -- that would be -- you know -- I don't put a  9 great deal of stock in the statement that Francois  10 Lake is the most conservative dialect.  It's just a  11 couple of little, tiny technical features that allow  12 you to say it's more conservative than Takla Lake  13 versus Babine Lake versus down the lower Bulkley.  14 Q   Well, coming back to Hagwilget, we know from historic  15 accounts that huge rocks fell into the river?  16 A   Right.  17 Q   And wouldn't that be, what, a reason for which they  18 named their settlement "below the rocks"?  19 A  Well, I imagine they -- they had the name much older  20 than the rock slide.  I think that's -- and then the  21 rock slide happened, and they moved down there.  22 And -- but I don't think you could say that after the  23 rock slide they gave the name Tse Kax, Tse Kax, same  24 spelling.  T-s-diaeresis e K-a-x.  I would certainly  25 think that that name pre-dates any -- any rock slide  26 or anything.  In fact, the name does not refer to a  27 slide at all.  It does not refer to a slide; it refers  28 to being beneath that cliff there.  So if you were --  29 and that's an interesting thought, dating Athabaskan  30 place-names due to some event, in this case an  31 historic period.  You know, maybe -- maybe we can do  32 that in some cases, but my judgment on -- on the name  33 for -- rather than saying it again, but the name that  34 we're referring to is -- is aboriginal.  35 Q   Well, it's an aboriginal name, yes.  36 A   But it dates from antiquity.  37 Q   You mean before the rock slide you're satisfied that  38 that was always called --  39 A   Yeah.  I would say --  40 Q   — that?  41 A   I would say that name is as old as the Babine-  42 Wet'suwet'en occupation of the area.  And I would say  43 that with some confidence based on my Alaskan work.  44 Q   How about the Gitksan names for that area?  45 A   I can't address that.  I know they're autonomous.  You  46 know, they'll have their own way of saying it, and --  47 you know -- they aren't necessarily calquing.  Do you 1177?  J. Kari (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 know what a caique is?  2 Q   No.  3 A   C-a-1-q-u-e.  That's when you have a name, a word, and  4 then the other language translates the other  5 language's word into their own language.  Like --  6 well, we see a caique -- in Gitksan word for coyote  7 looks like a caique from the Babine-Wet'suwet'en word  8 for coyote.  That means dog in the woods.  And so --  9 and my judgment there is that the coyotes did come in  10 from the east, right, and the Babine-Wet'suwet'en at  11 some point developed a name for coyote, which is  12 Dekenta Lek, D-e-k-e-n-t-a, and then a separate word  13 barred L-e-k, and that means dog among the -- dog of  14 the woods, dog of the woods, or the dog of the forest,  15 and then the Gitksan have some way of saying it, so  16 that's a caique.  17 Q   The word for moose, there is a word for moose in  18 Babine-Wet'suwet'en?  19 A   Xeda, X-e-d-a.  20 Q   And is that an ancient word?  21 A   It -- it does seem to be the word for horn, which  22 is -- it's interesting.  It does seem to refer to  23 antlers, which in Babine-Wet'suwet'en is K'edi,  24 K-apostrophe-e-d-i, but in Alaska is -- in Ahtna,  25 Alaska is K'ede', which is K-apostrophe-e-d-e-  26 apostrophe.  So it does seem to have connections with  27 the old Athabaskan word for antlers.  28 Q   Now, what's the Babine-Wet'suwet'en word for caribou?  29 A  Wedziyh, W-e-d-z-i-y-h.  30 Q   Are they equally ancient --  31 A   No.  32 Q   -- the two words?  33 A   No.  That's an excellent question.  It's an excellent  34 question and a good example of what linguistic  35 palaeontology can contribute.  And the name for  36 caribou is older than the word for moose because it's  37 in all -- all the northern Athabaskan languages the  38 same way the Gitksan borrowed it.  They borrowed the  39 name for caribou, and it has a wide distribution  40 throughout northern Athabaskan for caribou.  And their  41 name for moose is not as well imbedded in the  42 language.  The name for moose, that is, in Babine-  43 Wet'suwet'en, seems to be Sekani, Babine, Central  44 Carrier.  I don't know about beaver.  So I -- I don't  45 know for sure.  But that's as much as I know.  It's in  46 three Athabaskan languages, whereas the Babine-  47 Wet'suwet'en word for caribou is in all the northern 11779  J. Kari (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Athabaskan languages that have caribou, so right away  2 caribou is proto-Athabaskan as a lexical item and Xeda  3 is not.  4 Q   Well, how old is Xeda?  5 A   I -- I couldn't answer that in the way that some  6 people may like to use dates like say in terms of  7 glottochronology or something like that, but -- but  8 it -- it might be something to do with the timing of  9 moose entering Athabaskan territory.  You might come  10 up with something interesting on that.  I don't know.  11 Q   You'd have to know that?  12 A   Yeah, that would be by biographical information that a  13 biologist could tell you.  I don't know when they  14 say -- maybe 1500 A.D. the moose moved there and so --  15 so maybe then.  Maybe -- on the other hand, that  16 doesn't mean there weren't moose there 6,000 years ago  17 and the moose retreated and came back and they have  18 the same name from 6,000 years ago too.  I can't say.  19 It's not straightforward.  It -- complicated lines of  20 reasoning you do when you do linguistic palaeontology.  21 Q   But by looking at the word you can't tell -- the word  22 alone, without geographic and archaeological  23 information and biological information, you can't tell  24 how old that word is?  25 A   No, but I think perhaps if someone knows the earliest  26 onset of moose in that part of B.C., a historical  27 biogeographer --  28 Q   Well, we have that, as a matter of fact.  29 A   Yeah.  Then —  30 Q   That's how old the word is?  31 A   He and I should talk.  32 THE COURT:  His language or yours?  33 THE WITNESS:  Well — you know — I —  34 MR. MACAULAY:  35 Q   Well, if the Gitksan say that their -- that Hagwilget  36 was in their territory and the Wet'suwet'en only moved  37 in in the 1820's, that would tend -- seem to be  38 contradicted by what you say about the -- your  39 conclusions based on the study of the word?  40 A  Well, yeah.  I would add my feeling about a zone, an  41 interface zone between Gitksan and Babine-Wet'suwet'en  42 at least for a thousand years -- I've said that a  43 number of times -- and it could be further west, are  44 part of the way I think about things.  You know, I'm  45 not wheeling and dealing about territories, and who --  46 you know -- boundaries and these in the localized  47 sense are not the kind of thing I'm cognizant of at 11780  J. Kari (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 all.  I would look at it in a broader sense.  I have a  2 feeling that the Athabaskans were further west, and  3 that's why I -- you know -- I look forward to the day  4 that I can review the Gitksan origin place-names.  5 There may be more Athabaskan embedded in it.  But it's  6 nothing recent either.  It's not recent.  There's some  7 profound issues here in this part of the world, and  8 toponymic knowledge is high on the list of really  9 interesting research topics in your proceedings here.  10 Q   You probably know that a very large number of Gitksan  11 and some Wet'suwet'en for the last hundred years spent  12 the fishing season, a large part of the fishing season  13 at the coast in Tsimshian country.  You've heard that,  14 haven't you?  15 A   I guess so.  You mean in the commercial fishery?  16 Q   Yes, the canneries.  17 A   Canneries.  18 Q   From the 1880's.  19 A   I -- yes.  I don't know much about it or if many  20 Wet'suwet'en were down there.  I don't know.  21 Q   Do you find that reflected in the language?  22 A   Not that I know of.  Not that I know of.  I mean, I'm  23 sure Swineq is precontact for herring eggs.  24 S-w-i-n-e-q.  That's a Gitksan origin loanword into --  25 into Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  I mean, I know that's a  26 precontact borrowing, and it's not having anything to  27 do with the Babine-Wet'suwet'en going down there and  28 seeing herring eggs for the first time in a cannery --  2 9 you know.  30 Q   Why are you sure that's precontact?  31 A  Well, because it's a -- it's a widely distributed  32 Tsimshianic word, and it's an ocean product, and there  33 was trade in ocean products, so there is this  34 Tsimshianic strata in the vocabulary that's quite  35 exciting and interesting as a research topic.  We have  36 a number of these on our list, killer whale, seal and  37 oolichan, oolichan.  38 Q   How can you be so certain that that wasn't brought to  39 the Bulkley Valley in the 1880's rather than earlier?  40 A  Well, what kind of evidence would you use to show that  41 it was brought in the 1880's?  What -- for instance,  42 did they have a can that -- did the herring eggs come  43 in a can?  I mean --  44 Q   The very large movement of peoples down to the coast  45 every fishing season for a hundred years.  46 A  Well, I'm quite certain it's a precontact Tsimshianic  47 borrowing. 11781  J. Kari (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   I'm trying to find out why you are so certain in the  2 light of that historical information.  3 A  Well, it's canonically non-Athabaskan in structure.  4 Q   Tsimshian?  5 A   It's Tsimshianic in structure, and they -- it's a  6 portable item.  I don't think herring eggs -- herring  7 eggs could easily be put in a pack-sack and brought  8 upstream.  And -- and they use the Gitksan origin word  9 for it in the Bulkley River.  10 Q   And you know Legaic traded up and down the Skeena  11 River?  12 A   No, I don't know who you referred to.  13 Q   Legaic.  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   The famous Tsimshian chief.  16 A   Oh, okay.  Yeah, I've -- yeah, I guess I've heard --  17 how do they usually spell the name?  18 Q   L-e-g-a-i-c is the conventional way of spelling it.  19 Legaic.  2 0 A   Um hum.  21 Q   And he was a chief -- or there were several Legaics,  22 several successive Legaics, chiefs of the -- one of  23 the Tsimshian clans --  24 A   Um hum.  25 Q   -- called Gispaloats.  That's -- my lord, I'll start  26 spelling.  It's G-i-s-p-1 -- p-a-1-o-a-t-s, which is  27 one of many versions.  Now, history tells us that he  28 traded up and down, and he did more than that, along  29 the Skeena right up to -- certainly up to the forks  30 and up to Kispiox --  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   -- in the nineteenth century.  33 A   Um hum.  34 Q   Now, knowing that, isn't it equally consistent with  35 the -- that word for fish roe, herring roe, whatever  36 it was, fish egg?  37 A   Herring roe, not roe.  Herring roe.  38 Q   Yes, herring roe.  39 A   The word for roe, r-o-e, is proto-Athabaskan in  4 0 Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  41 Q   Herring roe being brought up at that time?  42 A   Yes.  No, I really don't think so.  You also have --  43 oolichan is in the same strata, Sek, S-e with a  44 diaeresis over it -k, see, so I would marshal other  45 evidence and -- to say there's a complex of ocean  4 6 terms --  47 Q   Yeah. 11782  J. Kari (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A   -- that are quite ancient borrowings of Tsimshianic  2 words into this particular Athabaskan language.  And  3 then Sek is in Tlingit, the same Sek I mentioned for  4 oolichan.  That word is in Tlingit, and -- you know --  5 there are these deep diffusions.  I made a distinction  6 between loanwords and deep diffusions, which I hope  7 will be helpful say in other ways that linguistic  8 information is being used here.  We gave some examples  9 of deep diffusion when Ms. Mandell was directing my  10 question.  11 Q   Is the word for herring roe a part of the deep  12 diffusion?  13 A   There it -- it looks somewhat more restricted, but I  14 don't know the -- Sek looks like an older -- Sek for  15 oolichan looks like an older word and more widely  16 distributed term -- in terms of the coast.  17 Q   Yes.  18 A   So Sek is used up here in Tlingit, and I don't know  19 who else over here, and then Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  And  20 I don't think you could say the same for herring egg,  21 so in that sense Sek is older than herring egg.  I  22 mean, oolichan -- the Babine-Wet'suwet'en word for  23 oolichan is certainly precontact and is -- is in the  24 category I would call deep diffusion, whereas I don't  25 think I would call herring egg a deep diffusion.  26 That's my judgment of the difference between the two.  27 Q   Why can you be so certain that that word was borrowed,  28 the herring egg word was borrowed, before 1850 rather  29 than either above that date or a little later?  30 A  Well, I -- my degree of certainty would -- would place  31 that word in a domain of other ocean birds -- ocean  32 terms like killer whale.  What's -- killer whale is  33 not a trade product, and the word for killer whale is  34 Nexl, N-accented e-x-underline-1.  You know, I could  35 make a case that they're old borrowings from the coast  36 in the language.  I haven't written it up, but I  37 could.  38 Q   Well, isn't your opinion -- there are various degrees  39 of certainty, and isn't your opinion --  40 A   Yes, sir.  41 Q   -- about herring egg less than, what, established  42 doctrines that it was precontact, that that borrowing  43 was precontact?  44 A  Well, I mean, I -- would you like different examples  45 of linguistic palaeontology?  I don't think the  46 herring egg example is that significant.  I could talk  47 about the snake -- proto-Athabaskan snake problem. 11783  J. Kari (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   I have enough trouble dealing with one at a time, and  2 I'm just trying --  3 A  Well, no, I mean in the same genre of argumentation.  4 I could tell you the argumentation about snake, but  5 it's of more significance in terms of ancient time  6 depths, because snakes do not go any further than the  7 Stikine River, do they?  8 Q   I didn't know that.  9 A  And there are no snakes in -- in unglaciated -- in the  10 Beringia.  Do you know what Beringia is?  11 B-e-r-i-n-g-i-a.  There is no fossil records of snake  12 in Alaska, in Beringia, okay.  You get down to Babine-  13 Wet'suwet'en, Carrier, and Sekani the word is all the  14 same.  It's Tl'eghes.  Wait, I said it in the wrong  15 language.  I said it in Alaska -- excuse me -- I said  16 it in one Alaskan language.  It is Tl'eghes in  17 Babine-Wet'suwet'en, which is T-1-apostrophe-  18 e-g-h-e-s-h.  19 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  20 THE WITNESS:  T-1-apostrophe-e-g-h-e-s.  That's the Babine-  21 Wet'suwet'en word for snake.  And this one is in  22 British Columbia, in Chilcotin, in Carrier, in Babine,  23 in Sekani, Tahltan as far as I know, and that's as far  24 north as the snake goes.  Now you get to Alaska.  In  25 this language it is Tl'uu, T-1-apostrophe-u-diaeresis-  26 u-diaeresis, a high-front, unrounded vowel.  Tl'uu.  27 And that means leech.  Leech.  You get to this  28 language and it is Tl'aghes, T-1-apostrophe-a-g-h-e-s,  29 and it is lamprey eel.  And it's in -- lamprey eel in  30 this language in the same word, and it's lamprey in  31 this language in the same word.  It's -- in this area  32 it's lamprey eel.  However, when you go from -- from  33 the Middle Yukon up -- or say -- they call this the  34 Lower-Middle Yukon, this area.  You go from the Lower-  35 Middle Yukon up to -- up to this area, I'll say it  36 their way, Tl'eghes, then it's -- you could spell it  37 the same way you did in Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  But here  38 it means ling cod.  Do you know what the ling cod  39 looks like?  4 0    MR. MACAULAY:  41 Q   Yes.  42 A   It's that long sinuous fish with the -- you know --  43 big fin, and it's kind of a snaky looking fish.  So  44 what is the original meaning of Tl'eghes?  It's a  45 proto-Athabaskan word.  If it is snake, then that  46 means the proto-Athabaskans were living in a country  47 that was warm enough to have reptiles. 11784  J. Kari (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  Exam by the Court  1 Q   Which isn't likely?  2 A  Well, it's not Alaska.  That is — I wouldn't — I  3 wouldn't go out on a limb on this one using one  4 example, but it does suggest a more southerly home for  5 the proto-Athabaskans than we've often written up in  6 our papers, which has usually been talking about it in  7 the Yukon sort of Alaska border.  Someplace like the  8 Skeena River, for example.  Also the Navajo word for  9 snake is Tl'iish, T-l -- T-1-apostrophe-i-i-s-h.  And  10 the Hupa word for -- for it is the same word too in  11 California.  So you see something of the argument.  12 There's other kinds of biota that you wouldn't use.  I  13 mean, this biogeography in language is very  14 interesting material.  15 MR. MACAULAY:  Those are the questions.  Thank you very much,  16 Dr. Kari.  17 THE COURT:  Thank you.  18 MR. MACAULAY:  Those are the questions I have.  19 THE COURT:  Doctor, why couldn't the progression have been the  20 other way, starting up in ling cod country and  21 swinging a bit to the west and then south-east down  22 into Navajo?  23 THE WITNESS:  That's what we usually see as a migration  24 scenario.  It's just that the linguistic palaeontology  25 is how come in Alaska these guys don't agree on how to  26 translate Tl'eghes.  How come they have -- it's leech,  27 it's lamprey, and it's ling cod in Alaska.  That gives  28 you a very insecure basis for doing a semantic  29 reconstruction.  I mean, the question is obviously  30 proto-Athabaskan had a stem Tl'eghes, but what did it  31 mean, you see, and then we don't know the answers.  We  32 don't know the answers.  I -- my guess is that the  33 leech is the oldest meaning and that -- and that the  34 Babine-Wet'suwet'en area is not the proto-Athabaskan  35 homeland, but it's nearby, it's certainly nearby.  36 THE COURT:  Another scenario is that it started in the leech  37 country and spread both --  38 THE WITNESS:  Um hum.  39 THE COURT:  -- east and west taking on a slightly different  40 meaning as the creature changed?  41 THE WITNESS:  Yes, yes.  I think leech is the most neutral and  42 probably the -- the one you would do to reconstruct  43 the meaning of the word.  This is like the  44 proto-Indo-European Beech problem too, B-e-e-c-h,  45 famous -- you know -- graduate school linguistic  46 problem and historical linguistics --  47 THE COURT:  I don't think we'll get into Beech.  Ms. Mandell. 11785  J. Kari (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Ms. Mandell  1 RE-EXAMINATION BY MS. MANDELL:  2 Q   Thanks.  I'm going to first ask you a question arising  3 out of Mr. Macaulay's examination -- cross-examination  4 of you.  He was asking where when you're doing your  5 research in Alaska and you're free to put your  6 boundaries where your scholarship takes you, as he put  7 it.  In that case my question to you is whether or  8 not -- when you have a zone such as you have described  9 for us in Hagwilget, would that type of zone be placed  10 within a linguistic boundary as coming within it or  11 would it normally be falling outside it?  12 A   The Hagwilget situation?  13 Q   Yes.  14 A   I'd probably draw -- if -- you know -- if you were  15 to -- yeah, I would draw a smoother -- if I were  16 really trying to capture a zone on a map, I would do  17 just that.  I would -- I would have a cross-hatch  18 colour, and I would have a perimeter that's not just  19 this one line in the map that -- that Mr. McEachern  20 has on his desk.  But, yeah, I do think there is such  21 a thing as native language boundaries, aboriginal  22 language boundaries that has a respectable tradition  23 in anthropological linguistics that -- you know --  24 when you -- maybe you should continue, Ms. Mandell.  25 Q   I notice that there is no map, am I right, in tab 5,  26 in your 1989 draft?  27 A   It says map, but we have no map.  It's not this map.  28 Let me assure you that that's not what I mean by map.  29 Yes, let's look at Kari and Hargus.  30 Q   If I could turn you to tab 5, page 2.  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   This map that we have now marked as an exhibit --  33 A   Is not this map that we're --  34 MS. MANDELL:  What exhibit is that?  I don't have a number.  35 THE REGISTRAR:  882.  36 MS. MANDELL:  37 Q   882.  That map is not the map that you would insert in  38 this article?  39 A   No.  40 Q   And in your description of the -- of the boundary --  41 A   Um hum.  42 Q   -- that follows in the next paragraph --  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   -- if you were describing this boundary, for example,  45 with respect to an Alaska language, would you normally  46 include the area that you call cross-hatch?  47 A   Yeah, you would find some way to convey that.  That's 11786  J. Kari (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Ms. Mandell  1 something of what the colours that -- the hues of the  2 colours in the Krauss map attempt to capture to some  3 degree.  Most of these do run on ridge lines in  4 drainage patterns in an approximate way, and in that  5 sense that's typical of the -- the British Columbia  6 Athabaskan place-names are just typical of the Alaskan  7 place-names.  8 Q   And if you do get around to trying this map for the  9 article -- I take it you do intend to?  10 A   No.  What I wanted to do is just a simple Xerox of a  11 B.C. road map that says where Smithers and Moricetown  12 and Burns Lake are.  That's good enough.  I don't need  13 to draw a perimeter to impress anybody.  And I know  14 it's a hot potato, so I'm not -- I'm not going to -- I  15 don't think we should -- in fact, I may tell the  16 editor we don't want to supply a map because it's not  17 up to me to do that.  This is strictly an in-house  18 calculation that gives me the 10,000 square mile  19 figure.  20 Q   Well, I notice, if you could turn to page 2 again  21 under Babine-Wet'suwet'en Dialectology, in the first  22 paragraph you say:  "Babine-Wet'suwet'en is currently  23 spoken in the villages of Hagwilget, Moricetown, Fort  24 Babine," and so on.  Is it your position, as stated  25 in this paper, that Hagwilget would be somehow  26 included in the Babine-Wet'suwet'en linguistic  27 boundary then?  28 A   Certainly.  29 Q   Now, I'd like to ask you some questions that follow  30 from the cross-examination of Mr. Willms yesterday.  31 A   Um hum.  32 Q   And I don't -- I'll try and do this without reference  33 to the tabs.  If I fall into problems with that, I'll  34 change modes.  35 You were asked about Dr. Kobrinsky's work, and for  36 that you were shown the article and read passages of  37 it, which is found at tab 12 of Exhibit 881 on the  38 Tsimshianization of the Carrier Indians.  And the  39 first paragraph which you were asked to comment upon  40 was contained on the first page, and it's the third  41 paragraph, and if I could just identify the  42 proposition that was put to you, which -- which is  43 this, that there are rather weighty ethnographic  44 indications of the recency of matrilineal divisions  45 among the northwest Carrier.  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Do you see that proposition? 11787  J. Kari (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Ms. Mandell  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And you didn't agree with that characterization?  3 A   No.  4 Q   And you said at page 11 -- 11590 that you agree with  5 Kobrinsky -- you don't agree with Kobrinsky but you  6 agree with Dyen and Aberle?  7 A  And DeLaguna in 1975.  8 MS. MANDELL:  I wonder first with respect to Dyen Aberle — I'm  9 sorry -- Dyen or Aberle if you could explain what  10 these scholars say about the recency or antiquity of  11 the matrilineal system of the Athabaskans?  12 MR. WILLMS:  Perhaps the extract could just be filed by my  13 friend -- certainly the witness must have it -- and  14 then Dyen and Aberle can speak for themselves rather  15 than having it translated through this witness.  16 MS. MANDELL:  17 Q   Do you have the passages that you would respond to  18 this quotation from?  19 A   I remember the page numbers --  20 Q   You do?  21 A   -- in Dyen and Aberle.  I believe it's around page 274  22 to 276 in Dyen and Aberle.  That's a thick book, by  23 the way, my lord.  24 Q   What's the name of the book?  25 A   Lexical Reconstruction, the Case of the Proto-  26 Athabaskan Homeland -- or, no, the Case of  27 Proto-Athabaskan Kinship.  That's the subtitle.  28 Cambridge, 1974.  You look in that book about page 274  29 or 276.  He -- in that area he talks about the deep  30 differentiation in the kinship systems in the  31 so-called Carrier area keeping in mind that Dyen and  32 Aberle themselves don't know that we now call Babine-  33 Wet'suwet'en something other than Carrier.  So that  34 precedes my work in the area.  35 Q   And that's found at page 77 of your bibliography at  36 tab 2?  That's the third item down?  37 A   I think so.  Yeah, the Dyen and Aberle quotes could be  38 looked at in terms of -- what you have in Dyen and  39 Aberle is they assembled all the kinship charts they  40 could find in California and Oregon languages and the  41 Southwest for Apache and Navajo and then any northern  42 Athabaskan, and they have this complex logical  43 reasoning in statistical measures of which language  44 has which kinship system and which -- and what can you  45 infer from that about the oldest meaning of these kin  46 terms in proto-Athabaskan, and they point to the  47 Jenness data here in the Bulkley River to say that it 117?  J. Kari (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Ms. Mandell  1 looks matrilineal, it looks like a relic area, a relic  2 language area, and then you have the problem of how  3 come the rest of the Carrier don't agree with the  4 Babine-Wet'suwet'en, but then that's not a problem if  5 they're autonomous languages and autonomous people for  6 a couple of millennia.  So I think that's what's  7 implicit in Dyen and Aberle and is explicitly  8 demonstrated in Dyen and Aberle, that proto-Athabaskan  9 was matrilineal.  Not too much debate on this any more  10 in the Athabaskan circles.  They more or less stated  11 the case, and it is true that that's one of the  12 conservatisms in Babine-Wet'suwet'en that is not  13 maintained in Central Carrier, and Central Carrier  14 being you have bilateral -- bilateral systems without  15 separate terms for cross-cousins.  So Aberle's and --  16 Dyen and Aberle's position that the Jenness data  17 indicates real conservatism in the Bulkley River in  18 the kinship system is true, and in our 1988 survey you  19 sure can bet that Hargus and I did a lot -- or some  20 certain amount of kinship terms like I did with Mary  21 Skin, for example, and in Takla Lake we did kinship  22 terms.  23 Q   His lordship yesterday asked you whether or not the  24 Athabaskans generally were matrilineal, and you  25 mentioned that with respect to the Ingalik --  26 A   Ingalik.  27 Q   -- I-n-g-a-1-i-k, community in Alaska, which was  28 bilingual, and the Lime Village --  29 A   Bilateral.  30 Q   Bilateral.  -- and the Lime Village, L-i-m-e,  31 Village —  32 A   Um hum.  33 Q   -- which you say has some problems because of their  34 relationship with the Eskimo language?  35 A   Yes, it's a little -- these folks do seem to have some  36 bilaterality here, but matrilineality is also going on  37 and denying -- elsewhere and denying -- of course, the  38 Ahtna obviously are sort of canonically matrilineal --  39 canonically matrilinial.  C-a-n-o-n-i-c-a-l-l-y.  And,  40 for example, DeLaguna and Dyen and Aberle think the  41 most -- that the single Athabaskan language with the  42 kinship terms that is closest to proto-Athabaskan is  4 3 Ahtna.  44 Q   And are there, with the exception of those two  45 communities that you've mentioned that maybe -- that  46 have exceptions to them, are the rest of the  47 Athabaskan groupings throughout North America 11789  J. Kari (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Ms. Mandell  1 matrilineal?  2 A   No, it's complex in Canada in the Cree area.  I  3 mean -- not the Cree area, the Chipewyan area.  Do you  4 know how to spell Chipewyan?  C-h-i-p-e-w-y-a-n.  5 Q   Are the Navajo matrilineal?  6 A   The Navajo are matrilineal, and the authority on the  7 subject is David Aberle.  8 Q   And was there any work done as to whether or not these  9 communities on the Pacific --  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   -- Northwest, whether they are matrilineal?  12 A   Yes, there's a whole chapter on it in Dyen and Aberle.  13 They're predominantly matrilineal, but there's some  14 complications due to other sorts of cultural patterns  15 that they developed in the last, I would say, 1,500  16 years.  17 Q   And could you explain how you would assess the  18 scholarship of Aberle?  19 A   Not Dyen and Aberle but Aberle?  20 Q   Dyen and Aberle.  21 A  Well, it's -- I mean, Kobrinsky's stuff is C-minus  22 work, so there's no comparison to -- to -- I mean, in  23 terms of -- you have DeLaguna in 1975 as well, which  24 is not cited in our paper, which is relevant to this  25 too.  2 6 Q   I'll come to that.  I want to first have your comments  27 though as to the -- the calibre of scholarship of Dyen  28 and Aberle in your opinion.  29 A  Well, this is a Cambridge University Press book.  It's  30 a rare item.  Now, that's a very valuable book.  31 Kobrinsky's never published.  This is just a Grey  32 Literature publication right here.  I mean, what's  33 happened to Kobrinsky since he wrote this paper?  Has  34 he published anything else?  I haven't read it if he  35 has.  I mean, this is a -- you know -- a U.B.C.  36 product, Aberle a U.B.C. product himself.  37 Q   I still don't know if I understand your assessment of  38 Dyen and Aberle.  39 A   I consider it definitive.  40 Q   And you mention DeLaguna 1975?  41 A   Um hum.  42 Q   Is there stated by that scholar further evidence with  43 respect to the antiquity or the recency of the  44 matrilineal system of the Athabaskans?  45 A   Yes.  46 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, on this one, this scholar isn't in any  47 report here.  It's something that the witness 11790  J. Kari (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Ms. Mandell  1 mentioned.  And I don't object to my friend getting  2 the extract and putting the extract to the witness so  3 that we can all follow along, but I object to this  4 hearsay.  I mean, the hearsay that we've had so far  5 has been documented hearsay, there's an actual  6 reference by a witness in a report to something that  7 the witness relied on, and so we've been dealing with  8 that.  But this goes beyond that.  Now, if my  9 friend -- certainly the witness mentioned DeLaguna.  10 You know, if DeLaguna is talking about the Tlingits,  11 it's certainly important for us to know that, and so I  12 object to this.  13 THE COURT:  DeLaguna was introduced into the evidence by the  14 witness, was she not?  15 THE WITNESS:  Well, her name has been mentioned.  She's a friend  16 of mine.  17 THE COURT:  But she wasn't brought -- she wasn't mentioned by  18 counsel in a question; you raised her in your answers?  19 THE WITNESS:  The other day I mentioned it in terms of Mr.  20 Willms.  Gee, do I have your name right?  21 THE COURT:  I'm not sure that the rule should be so strictly  22 applied though, Mr. Willms.  If in the response to one  23 of your questions the name comes up doesn't mean,  24 therefore, that it's automatically excluded as  25 improper re-examination.  26 MR. WILLMS:  I'm not suggesting that it's not a proper area for  27 re-examination.  What I'm objecting to here is that  28 the previous reference, Dyen and Aberle, is something  29 which -- there's a reference there.  We know where it  30 is.  We know what it is.  Now, for my friend to now  31 take the witness through another person's name without  32 identifying what the reference is, without any  33 opportunity for us to look at that, perhaps mark it  34 later on, depending on what the witness says -- you  35 see, Dyen and Aberle has been mentioned, and I'm sure  36 my friend won't have any objection if I get the  37 extract that the witness referred to and we mark it  38 later on and we can all see what Dyen and Aberle  39 actually said, but I don't know how I can do that with  40 this line of questioning.  41 THE WITNESS:  I don't even think I need to discuss DeLaguna  42 1975.  43 THE COURT:  I think we've solved our problem.  44 MS. MANDELL:  That's not what I wanted.  45 THE COURT:  Next question.  46 MS. MANDELL:  Well —  47 THE COURT:  Ms. Mandell, you're going to be a little while. 11791  J. Kari (For Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Ms. Mandell  1 MS. MANDELL:  I will be, my lord.  If we could just settle this.  2 I just wanted to say that this came up on cross.  I,  3 of course, can't talk to the witness.  I've got no  4 independent other source of experts to guide me as to  5 what this is about.  I'm as interested as my friend in  6 getting the same information as he is about where this  7 arises.  8 THE COURT:  DeLaguna?  9 MS. MANDELL:  Yeah.  10 THE WITNESS:  It's a Mercury series.  11 THE COURT:  I'm sure when we resume this afternoon you can ask  12 the witness, or if you want to look at it at  13 lunch-time if that's --  14 THE WITNESS:  I don't have it with me.  15 THE COURT:  Is it locally available?  16 THE WITNESS:  I don't think it's that relevant to — saying that  17 Kobrinsky's work is mediocre.  That's what I've said,  18 Kobrinsky's work is mediocre.  19 THE COURT:  It's going to be difficult for you to pursue this.  20 I think you're in some trouble here, Ms. Mandell.  21 We'll resume at two o'clock.  22 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until 2:00.  23  24 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED PURSUANT TO THE LUNCHEON BREAK)  25  26 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  27 a true and accurate transcript of the  28 proceedings herein to the best of my  29 skill and ability.  30  31  32  33 Leanna Smith  34 Official Reporter  35 United Reporting Service Ltd.  36 11792  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Ms. Mandell  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO LUNCH BREAK)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  4 TBE COURT:  Thank you, Miss Mandell.  5 MS. MANDELL:  Thank you, your lordship.  6 Q   Dr. Kari, you were asked about Dr. Kobrinsky's  7 comments that phratries and clans arose during the  8 prehistoric period in the context of the fur trade,  9 and when you were asked about your comments to that,  10 you said that you don't agree with Kobrinsky.  You  11 say, "I agree with Dyen and Aberle", and we've already  12 talked about that?  13 A  Yes.  14 Q  And De Laguna?  15 A  De Laguna.  16 Q  De Laguna in 197 5, as well as this whole genre of  17 literature?  18 A  Yes.  That would include Ruble and Roseman 1983.  19 Q  All right.  Could you first give us the De Laguna  20 reference that here you're referring to?  21 A  It's in a Mercury series from the National Museum that  22 year. It's a long article on something like  23 matrilineal clans in the north-west coast or clans --  24 something along that line.  It's a long article, and  25 she surveys the Alaskan material on matrilineal clans  26 and some of the Canadian material, and she uses  27 Jenness too, but De Laguna is an expert at  28 synthesizing lots of information.  So actually that's  29 coterminous with Dyen and Aberle 197 4.  Neither cites  30 either one.  They were both in press about the same  31 time; both of those studies.  32 MS. MANDELL:  And does De Laguna create argument about band  33 names and sept names?  3 4 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, I object to this for the same reason as  35 before.  The witness says that he relied on these  36 people.  He's identified these people.  For him to say  37 what these people said without us all having the  38 opportunity of seeing it is hearsay.  39 THE WITNESS:   And I agree too.  40 MR. WILLMS:  Even in the broadest sense.  And the witness agrees  41 too.  42 THE WITNESS:  I mean, I can't remember De Laguna 197 5.  I would  43 just as soon have it in front of me too if I were  44 talking about it.  45 THE COURT: It does seem to me, Miss Mandell, that it's in the  *6 bibliography.  47 MS. MANDELL:  No, it isn't. 11793  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Ms. Mandell  1 THE COURT:  But what he relied upon is in the bibliography.  2 MS. MANDELL:  That's right.  3 THE COURT:  And surely in re-examination you're now being asked  4 to -- you're asking the witness to greatly expand his  5 evidence in chief.  6 MS. MANDELL:  Well, he dealt with the fact that the  7 anthropologists had not addressed the question  8 directly of language versus dialect in the general  9 area, and it was for this proposition that the  10 anthropologists were cited.  And my friend raises the  11 anthropological argument with him, which wasn't  12 directed in chief, and he didn't direct in his paper,  13 that there was a new matrilineal system which involved  14 the formation of clans and phratries after the contact  15 period as a result of the advent of the fur trade.  16 And this theory and thesis it wasn't addressed by this  17 witness, it arose in cross.  And yet the witness, it  18 was put to the witness, and the witness has certain  19 comments which were made arising out of his questions,  20 which directed us to a whole new line of literature  21 which apparently contradicts this thesis and --  22 THE COURT:  Well, I don't think your friend is objecting to you  23 asking him what other items there may be in this line  24 of literature, but it seems to me you're going beyond  25 that and asking him now to describe, in the face of  26 his own reluctance to do it, what somebody wrote back  27 in 1974 or '75, when the witness isn't really  28 confident he can say what was -- with precision what  29 was said.  I think you're limited in this area to ask  30 him to identify those additional items of reference  31 that he's aware of or he may have looked at or relied  3 2 upon and knew about, but not now to embark upon a  33 description of what those references say.  As Mr.  34 Willms has said, we know what they are.  We can all  3 5 look at them now, and surely that's safer than having  36 the witness free-wheel his way through what he thinks  37 they might have said, but which he himself on three  38 occasions now has expressed reluctance to do so.  3 9    MS. MANDELL:  40 Q  All right.  Thank you, my lord.  41 I'll then ask you, you mentioned that Ruble and  42 Roseman also contributed to the line of argument which  43 you subscribed to?  4 4 A  Yes.  45 Q  Can you advise us as to their work that you rely upon  46 in this regard?  47 A  Well, there's an article in JAR, Journal of 11794  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Ms. Mandell  1 Anthropological Research, and I think it's 1983, and  2 this is the article that has the inner-ring hypothesis  3 that there's an ancient strata of matrilineal clans  4 more or less as we're looking at the Athabaskan, quite  5 like the proto-Athabaskan homelands, so those sources  6 are a similar line of reasoning from Dyen and Aberle,  7 to De Laguna '75, 1975, Ruble and Roseman 1983, and  8 now Ives 1985.  That's not the paper of Ives we looked  9 at yesterday, but that's the whole chapter in his  10 dissertation on Carrier.  That's a very good source,  11 and that's where he uses this draviadan.  He calls the  12 proto-Athabaskan kinship term draviadan,  13 d-r-a-v-i-a-d-a-n.  14 Q  And could you advise us as to the academic statute of  15 Ruble and Roseman?  16 A  They're from Columbia, or that's what the paper says,  17 Columbia University in New York.  18 Q  And Dr. Ives?  19 A  I believe he's the Director of the Archaeological  20 Survey of Alberta.  21 Q  And do you know whether or not Ruble, Roseman, Dr.  22 Ives or De Laguna, any of those doctors cited  23 Kobrinsky in their work with approval?  24 A  Well, first of all, Kobrinsky is after the first two,  25 and I don't know about Ruble and Roseman, but Ives  26 does cite Kobrinsky.  27 Q  Is it with approval do you know?  28 A  It's neither here nor there.  He just reviews the  29 literature.  But I should point out that Kobrinsky did  30 his work at Babine Lake and not the Bulkley River, and  31 apparently Mr. Willms didn't realize that when I asked  32 him that question earlier this week.  I believe  33 Kobrinsky worked at Babine Lake and no one apparently  3 4 in Moricetown or Hagwilget ever worked with him.  35 Q  All right.  The passage also from Dr. Kobrinsky's  36 thesis, which was put to you for comment, if I could  37 paraphrase it, says that the phratries and clans  3 8 overlie the older name divisions which Morice called  3 9 septs which developed from regional bands under the  40 stimulus of the newly adapted salmon economy.  And I  41 wonder if you could comment whether there's linguistic  42 evidence that there was a newly adapted salmon economy  43 in this area after contact?  44 A  Newly adapted salmon economy.  Gee, he even said that.  45 Yeah, no, the salmon economy in the Upper Skeena is  46 ancient, very ancient, because of the obscure — what  47 I would show on that or what I could show on that is 11795  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Ms. Mandell  1 that the salmon technology vocabulary in Ahtna, when  2 you hear some of that down in the Skeena River, you  3 know there's some ancient connections.  Like that's  4 another way of saying that Ruble and Roseman's  5 inner-ring hypothesis has something very appealing;  6 that their ancient matrilineal salmon-based economies  7 on -- in Alaska and British Columbia that have a  8 striking congruence in many lexical items, including  9 things like a little stick that's used to spread out  10 the fish, a little stick, a fish spreading stick.  In  11 Ahtna that is a K'eqaye', K-'-e-q-a-y-e-', and on  12 Babine Lake and the Bulkley River that is K'ekeyh,  13 K-'-e-k-e-y-h.  So just those things can't be  14 accidental that there's an ancient salmon economy in  15 the Skeena River with strong congruence with the  16 Athabaskan vocabulary in the same genre in salmon  17 fishing areas in Alaska.  18 Q  And you were also asked to comment on the passage that  19 Dr. Kobrinsky opted for the word sept to avoid  20 connotation of a politically integrated institution  21 such as chieftain and council which were lacking in  22 precontact era.  And my question to you is that is  23 there any linguistic evidence of the existence of a  24 politically integrated institution for the Athabaskans  25 in the precontact era?  26 A  Well, I -- I do think there's some complicated  27 vocabulary problems in terms of band names, which I  28 guess is what Kobrinksy means as septs, and clan  29 names, but this use of t'en like in Wet'suwet'en.  30 T'en is literally in proto-Athabaskan people who have  31 an area, people who have territory, and that means  32 Athabaskan-style territory, and you find that all over  33 Canada.  You find it in this -- all these Alaskan  3 4 languages.  Or take the name Kutchin, that is -- the  3 5 word Gwichin, that is wet'en.  36 Q  Can you spell the first name, please?  37 A  Kutchin on the map is K-u-t-c-h-i-n, and in that  3 8 language they pronounce it --  3 9   THE COURT:  Sorry, there was another word.  40 THE WITNESS:  Gwichin, G-w-i-c-h-i-n.  41 THE COURT:  Thank you.  42 THE WITNESS:  That's how they spell it up around Fort Yukon, an  43 Arctic village up there.  That's the people who  4 4 possess an area.  And wet'en in the language here you  45 certainly see that often enough, w-e-t-'-e-n.  So in  46 this case we're saying there's two distant really  47 related -- two languages of some geographical distance 11796  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Ms. Mandell  1 before us that use the same sept name.  I use the term  2 band name.  And in addition to that, there is a strata  3 of matrilineal clan names.  4 Now, I could answer this best in the language I  5 know the best which is Ahtna.  I'm not -- I mentioned  6 Kutchin and Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  Do you want me to go  7 into the Ahtna relationship between the Ahtna clan  8 names and sept names? They're quite autonomous sets of  9 names.  They're autonomous sets of names.  One is a  10 territorial -- it indicates territory, and the other  11 is matrilineality that indicates -- so there are two  12 sets of names that, in other words, Kobrinsky's thesis  13 was not sophisticated.  14 MS. MANDELL:  15 Q  You mentioned that -- at page 11593 you summarized Dr.  16 Kobrinksy's linguistic deficiency by saying that in  17 the paper that Tsimshianization of the Carrier shows  18 an oversimplification of the ethnic boundaries and  19 language boundaries in the area, as well as his lack  20 of control of the linguistic information in Babine  21 Lake?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q  Were those linguistic problems that you raised that  24 Dr. Kobrinsky's paper evidenced, were those same  25 problems present in your work and Dr. Rigsby's work  26 studying in the same area?  27 A  Well, I think we have established since say 1973 and  28 on with the accumulating field work that there is a  29 language which is not Carrier which is spoken on the  30 Skeena River, the Skeena River headwaters, which is  31 what I refer to as Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  So if certain  32 items in the literature such as Kobrinsky or Steward  33 1960 or Duff too, Duff 1951, all the basic sources  3 4 that supposedly are primary sources on "Carrier social  3 5 organization", we all should take all of that with a  36 grain of salt or, you know, back away and make sure we  37 keep the terms properly defined; that when data that  38 has really been gathered from Babine-Wet'suwet'en is  3 9 marshalled for its own sake when it is appropriate,  40 and data that is Carrier, and that includes Central  41 and Southern Carrier, is kept — is kept in its own  42 perspective too.  43 So I think what Kari and Hargus are saying is that  44 the kinship system of Babine-Wet'suwet'en is  45 coterminous with the Babine-Wet'suwet'en language area  46 quite a — quite strikingly with our work and -- and  47 other figures in the anthropological literature in the <r  J.   far:      for   Plaintiffs)  Pe-exar   by   Ms.   V^ndell  i -i  1 past..     You   need   to  keep  this --   in other words,  : Carrier  data   should   not   be marshalled   to   shoot  down  3 the  proposition   that  Babine-Wet'suwet'en  are  or  are  4 not   at  patrilineal   in  the  aboriginal  period.      In fact,  5 we  know   that  Babine-Wet'suwet'en   is matrilineal   in  the  6 aboriginal   period.  So   it's  --   it's   tricky  going  handling   this  Carrier  P anthropological   literature.      I  think   Ives'   1985  9 treatment   of   it   is quite  balanced   though.     That's   the  C first   i terr.   I would   give   to   someone who wanted   to  get  a  1 precis   of   it  would  be   Ives  1985.     And   I might   say   that  what we're  doing  here  by   saying  Babine-Wet'suwet1en  is  13 its   own  language   is very  analogous   to   the   Ingalik  14 probleir   in  Alaska.      It's quite  analogous.      I  could  15 explain   that,   but  —  16 C       You were  also  asked   to  comment   upon Dr.   Kobrinsky's  17 statement   that   there   are   no   traditions  giving  accounts  IP of   the   origin  of   the   Carrier  clans   such  as   those which  19 describe   the wanderings,   adventures,   and  eventual  20 settling  of   the ancestors of   Coast  Tsimshian and  21 Gitksan  counter-parts?  22 A       Well,    I  —   I  certainly wouldn't want   to  rely  on  23 Kobrinsky   for   saying   there's  no   traditions  of   that  24 nature.      I  —   in  fact,    I   think your  case work  here,  2 5 these  —   shows   how   far   off  base   that   is.     There  are  26 plenty  of   traditions   that   relate   to  early  occupation  2" of   the  Bulkley  River   about   the  dispersal   —   I mean,  2P the  Dizdlegh   story,   D-i-z-d-1-e-g-h,   is  a   dispersal   of  29 bands   story.  3C o       And would   that   Dizdlegh   story be,   according   to your  31 judgr.ent,   the   kind  of   direct  evidence   that   Sapir   talks  3 2 about?  33 A       Precisely.      Precisely.  3 4 Q       And you mentioned  also   the word  for  Moricetown,   Qayex  35 weget?  3 6 A       Uh-huh.  3" Q       0-a-y-e-x w-e-g-e-t.  3P A       Uh-huh.  3 9 0       Would   that   also,   according  to your  assessment,   be  4C reference   to   the   kind  of   evidence   that   Sapir   talks  41 about  when rry   friend  put   a  passage   to you yesterday  42 where   he was   speaking  about   the  analysis  of  43 place-names   is  frequently a valuable means  of  44 ascertaining whether  people  have long  settled  in a  45 particular   region  or   not?     The  longer   a  country  has  46 been occupied,   the more  the  names  of   its   topographical  4" features  and villages   tend  to become  purely 11798  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Ms. Mandell  1 conventional, and you lose the descriptive meaning  2 they originally possessed?  3 A  Well, the interesting thing about Athabaskan  4 place-names is that quite -- it's sort of a  5 counter-evidence to what Sapir is saying there.  Like  6 he used the York and New York example in the paper,  7 and in the United States the names are more  8 transparent than in England quite often, and that sort  9 of thing.  What is so striking about Athabaskan  10 place-names, and when they've obviously been in North  11 America for 10,000 years and there was some form of  12 the language spoken 10,000 years ago and probably the  13 names date in most cases very early, very early, they  14 remain transparent on the surface so often.  That's  15 why I can even without -- like when I did review the  16 ledger of transcripts earlier this week and I looked  17 at some of these, I didn't look at all of them, I  18 could see how to translate those names, despite the  19 spelling, you know, the -- some of the factors of  20 spelling error that are there, I'm certainly not  21 critical of Mr. Mitchell and Mr. George and their work  22 to try to do their best to spell the language, and I  23 can etymologize those place-names 90 to 95 per cent of  24 the time in their old names.  25 THE COURT:  When you say transparent you mean obviously --  26 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  27 THE COURT:  -- related to the -- to some other name for the same  28 place or to the place itself?  29 THE WITNESS:  To the proto-Athabaskan morpheme inventory.  30 They're transparent in structure.  Should I give an  31 example?  3 2    MS. MANDELL:  33 Q   Sure.  3 4 A  Okay.  Let's take Saskots'anli.  I don't know where it  35 is, and I'll spell it, it's a Babine-Wet'suwet'en  36 place-name somewhere, S-a-s-k-o-t-s-'-a-n-l-i.  And  37 that means it flows from the Hydersum Alpinum plant,  38 that wild carrot plant, so that's literally what it  3 9 means.  Sasko is Hydersum Alpinum.  That's  40 H-y-d-e-r --  41 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, H-y-d --  42 THE WITNESS:   -- e-r-s-u-m. I believe Alpinum is a-1-p-i-n-u-m,  43 and it's somewhere in Babine-Wet'suwet'en territory.  44 And each syllable conforms to Athabaskan cannon or  45 Athabaskan morpheme structure.  And then in Alaska,  46 and the reason I mention this is because right where  47 the University of Alaska is is Trothyedha', and that 11799  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Ms. Mandell  1 is Hydersum Alpinum ridge, and in Alaska you would  2 spell that T-r-o-t-h-y-e-d-h-a-'.  So yedha' that is  3 your yis(ph) in your names, in Babine-Wet'suwet'en.  4 This language that I'm using is this one here, Tanana.  5 This is not a language I work with personally.  I just  6 happen to know a lot about it, and it's right there  7 where I live in Fairbanks.  And even some of the names  8 right around Fairbanks you could say them and somebody  9 here in Babine-Wet'suwet'en would know what they  10 meant.  They're that close.  11 MS. MANDELL:   Okay.  Thank you.  Those are my questions.  12 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  13 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, the one thing I do want to do before the  14 witness goes is he made two references and I would  15 like to make sure that there won't be any problem with  16 me marking them --  17 THE COURT:  Yes.  18 MR. WILLMS:  -- when I've got them photocopied.  If my friend  19 has a problem with that, I'd like to put them to the  20 witness right now.  21 THE COURT: Do you know what he's talking about?  22 MR. WILLMS:  I'm talking about De Laguna and Dyen and Aberle.  23 THE COURT:  What is it you have, some literature?  24 MR. WILLMS:  Yes.  I've got De Laguna on this very issue,  25 matrilineality and the Tsimshian influence, and I've  26 got Dyen and Aberle on the same topic, and I do want  27 to mark the extracts, but we don't need to take up the  28 witness1 time.  The extracts speak for themselves.  29 THE COURT:  Perhaps you could have the doctor at least identify  30 the book.  31 MR. WILLMS:  All right.  32 THE COURT:  Surely you and your friend can work that out.  33 MS. MANDELL:  And also are you going to put sections of it in?  34 MR. WILLMS:  Well, I'll put -- let me just -- Dr. Kari, there's  35 a long article -- I'm showing you National Museum of  36 Man, Mercury series, proceedings, Athabaskan  37 Conference 1971.  And the article by De Laguna starts  3 8 at page 17 and it's entitled "Matrilineal Kin Groups  39 in North-Western North America"?  40 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  41 MR. WILLMS:   That's the one you were referring to?  42 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  43 THE COURT:  All right.  You have no trouble with that one?  44 MR. WILLMS: ^It's — no, it's a very long article and I was only  4 5 going to mark down to the septs so --  46 MS. MANDELL:  Well, I don't know about that.  47 THE COURT:  I think you can put in what you want and Miss 11800  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Exam by the Court  1  2  3  MR.  4  5  6  7  8  9  THE  10  THE  11  MR.  12  13  THE  14  15  16  THE  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  THE  25  THE  26  27  26  29  30  THE  31  THE  32  THE  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  THE  42  43  THE  44  THE  45  46  47  THE  Mandell can put in whatever else she thinks should go  in.  WILLMS:  All right.  That's fine.  Now, the second reference is a book entitled  'ñ†Lexical Reconstruction", Dyen and Aberle.  It's  Cambridge University press entitled "The Case of the  proto-Athabaskan Kinship System".  And that's your  other reference?  WITNESS:   Uh-huh.  COURT:  And you want to put it all in or part of it?  WILLMS: Well, the witness I think referred to pages 27 4 to  276.  WITNESS: Carrier is mentioned throughout the book. There  must be 50 citations in the index to Carrier, so just  follow all the citations in the index to Carrier.  COURT:  All right.  And the same with that.  When you decide  what you want to put in let your friend know, Mr.  Willms, and she might want to put some additional  parts in.  All right.  Doctor, there's two matters I want to  ask you about.  I'm not sure -- if you could look at  tab 5, Exhibit 860.  Now, I understand this is a paper  that you have collaborated with Sharon Hargus on?  WITNESS:   Yes.  COURT:  And I merely want to know what you say about it and  how I should deal with it. Is it an update of your  report that is tab 2 which is Exhibit 877 or is it a  free-standing paper that deals generally with the same  subject?  WITNESS:   Well, your lordship --  COURT:  I understand --  WITNESS:   This is what I was starting to do in Kari 197 5  which is a unpublished paper called "Babine, A New  Athabaskan Linguistic Grouping".  So if you see, our  Kari and Hargus outline is somewhat like that I do  deal with Carrier ethnonomy and some of the problems  in Kari 197 5, but now this is that paper to be  submitted for publication when it's finally revised  and it is the basis -- it's based on my previous work  and our 1988 dialect survey.  COURT:  Would I have it correct to say that you started to  do this in 197 5?  WITNESS:   Uh-huh.  COURT: Ypu didn't get it finished, and you got diverted by  the preparation of your report for this case, Exhibit  877?  WITNESS:   Well, I've been diverted by a lot of things since 11801  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Exam by the Court  1 1975.  2 THE COURT:  Okay.  You were diverted from it.  Does this draft  3 Exhibit 880, tab 5, amend or add to the opinions that  4 you have in the opinion or the report you prepared for  5 this case?  6 THE WITNESS:   Yes, I'm glad you asked that your lordship.  7 The --  8 THE COURT:  If I find something that doesn't seem to fit, --  9 THE WITNESS:        Yes.  10 THE  COURT:     --  maybe  I  won't,   but  which  one  do  I   take as  your  11 final  word?  12 THE WITNESS:   Well, I want to send you folks a revised draft  13 when it's done, and I'll be glad to send it to Mr.  14 Willms and Miss Mandell and yourself, and actually I  15 have a revised draft that Miss Mandell has not seen  16 that's dated about two days before.  17 THE COURT:  Which one would you want us to defer to?  18 THE WITNESS:   Until I make -- Hargus and I make another round  19 of changes I would say within the next three weeks or  20 so, you can cite the one in tab 5, and then —  21 THE COURT:  In preference to tab 2?  22 THE WITNESS:   Oh, well, there is some independent material in  23 tab 2 such as the loanwords and all that.  It is --  24 this is -- I mean, you'll see that the tab 2 is  25 Rigsby/Kari.  There's plenty of ground covered there.  26 The main points about Kari and Hargus 1989 are there's  27 more material on Morice, the Morice literature,  28 there's my evaluation, my attempt to find Babine  29 language data in the Morice literature, so all that  30 material is new.  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  32 THE WITNESS:   The other material that's new is the Carrier  33 ethnonomy saga and all the sources on, you know,  3 4 Northern Carrier, Upper Carrier, Higher Carrier, Lower  35 Carrier, Babine Carrier, and the whole business,  36 Wet'suwet'en and Nedut'en.  37 THE COURT:  Which one are we to take as being your present  3 8 opinion?  3 9 THE WITNESS:   The new draft is a great refinement over some of  40 the issues that cover the same ground in Rigsby and  41 Kari '86, and then the Pacific Coast Athabaskan  42 connections are dealt with somewhat more in a brief  43 way, but in -- well, that's the same point.  That's  44 the same point as in Rigsby and Kari 1986.  45 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Now, one other thing,  46 Doctor, and maybe it isn't possible to express an  47 opinion on this, but is Babine-Wet'suwet'en as a 11802  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Exam by the Court  1 language something that you have discovered?  Are you  2 the person that initiated that concept?  3 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  4 THE COURT:  Yes?  5 THE WITNESS:   But Story 1984 is a source.  I was actually  6 expecting questions relating to Story 1984 when I came  7 here and I haven't -- Gillian has done tremendous work  8 there.  That's a very good monograph.  9 THE COURT:  But apart from -- is Story — has Story identified a  10 separate language which you call Babine-Wet'suwet•en?  11 THE WITNESS:  What she calls Babine there, yes, does -- yes,  12 this is the Story monograph.  13 THE COURT:  So she called it -- all right.  She called it  14 Babine; you call it Babine-Wet'suwet'en?  15 THE WITNESS:   Right.  16 THE COURT:  Does anyone -- has anyone else published on that  17 question?  18 THE WITNESS:  No.  This is the first thing published and then  19 in terms of, you know, the Kari and Hargus 19 89, we  20 don't -- we do take issue with Story on some little  21 fine details, phonetic detail, but it's an outstanding  22 monograph.  23 THE COURT:  Up to that time I take it that Babine-Wet'suwet'en  24 wasn't identified as a separate language?  25 THE WITNESS:  Only in terms of the handbook that Krauss and  26 Golla in 1981, that was — and Krauss 197 9, those two  27 sources are the first published sources that agreed  28 that it was a language, and that was based on my  29 unpublished notes.  That's before Story came out, so  30 it was identified as a language as of Krauss '79, and  31 Krauss and Golla '81.  32 THE COURT: Yes.  All right.  Can you express an opinion — is  33 there a future for this language? Will it become  3 4 extinct or will it continue to be a recognized and  3 5 separate identifiable language?  36 THE WITNESS:   I'd rather not comment.  37 THE COURT:  All right.  All right.  Thank you.  You're excused.  3 8 Thank you, Doctor.  We adjourn then until the 20th and  3 9 we're to hear then, Dr. who?  40 MS. MANDELL:  Dr. Daly.  41 THE COURT:  Dr. Daly.  And that specialty is what?  42 MS. MANDELL:  Anthropology.  It's actually economic anthropology  43 of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en.  4 4 THE COURT:  Of both?  45 MS. MANDELL:4 Yes.  46 THE  COURT:     And   that's  a   two-week witness?  47 MS.   MANDELL:     I  hope   it's   no  longer. 11803  J. Kari (for Plaintiffs)  Exam by the Court  1 THE COURT:  Yes, I hope so too.  All right.  Thank you.  2 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  Court will adjourn until  3 February 20, ten a.m..  4  5 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 2:40 p.m. to February 20,  6 1989 at 10:00 a.m.)  7  e  9 I hereby certify the foregoing to  1C be a true and accurate transcript  11 of the proceedings herein to the  12 best of ay skill and ability.  m .- Jumj \l\ih\ir>A )  15 Tatoita  S.   French  16 Official   Reporter  17 /  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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