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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-12-07] British Columbia. Supreme Court Dec 7, 1988

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 10093  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Smithers, B.C.  December 7, 1988  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  MR. RUSH: My lord, I asked that your lordship could convene the  court just to advise you of the status of things. And  it is not a happy one.  THE COURT:  Dear me.  MR. RUSH:  The cross-examination of Mr. Morris continues.  Apparently we're into our seventh hour, and it  looks -- Mr. Mackenzie for the province, who commenced  the cross-examination, has not yet completed, but it  looks as though he'll be done in 15 minutes to half an  hour.  Then there is the cross-examination of -- of  the federal government, and the re-direct to come yet,  so I would -- although we don't have any exact times  on this I would expect an hour at least.  Mr. Robert  Jackson Sr., who's the next in court witness, is here  present ready to go, and we are waiting for the  completion of Mr. Morris.  THE COURT:  Why do we have to complete Mr. Morris before we  start Mr. Jackson?  MR. RUSH:  Well, that was a good question.  Mr. Mackenzie will  be counsel, I take it, cross-examining Mr. Jackson.  THE COURT:  Well, I'm sorry, but I don't think we should delay  this an hour.  I'm sorry.  I think that in these  matters I would usually prefer to leave counsel to  work these things out.  I just don't think we can  allow the schedule to be disrupted by -- by over  holding witnesses.  I think Mr. Morris should be  completed at some other time.  It's out of court.  I  don't think that this valuable time should be  compromised by things going on in another court.  I  think that Mr. Mackenzie should be here, and we should  proceed on Mr. Jackson, and Mr. Morris can be  completed tomorrow morning or Friday morning or any  time which will not compromise the time we're spending  in court.  Would you be good enough to convey my  compliments to counsel who are engaged elsewhere and  say I think we should proceed here forthwith.  No  other reason, I gather, we can't proceed with Mr.  Jackson?  MR. RUSH: I'm not sure who counsel for the federal defendant is  in that case.  MS. RUSSELL:  Well, my lord, it's Ms. Koenigsberg.  There is no  difficulty since the province is leading on this 10094  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 examination.  Any one of us could come down and cover  2 while it commenced.  3 THE COURT:  I think that's what we should do.  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  5  6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS)  7  8 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  9 MR. RUSH:  My lord, this is Mr. Robert Jackson Sr., who has  10 attested to an affidavit, and he's here to be  11 cross-examined on that affidavit.  Mr. Robert Jackson  12 Sr. does not for the most part require translation,  13 but he will need assistance with certain Gitksan and  14 English words now and again.  15 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Swear the witness.  16 THE REGISTRAR:  Mr. Jackson, could you please stand up and take  17 the Bible in your hand.  18  19 ROBERT JACKSON SR., a witness called  20 on behalf of the Plaintiffs, having  21 first been duly sworn testified as  22 follows:  23  24 THE REGISTRAR:  Please tell the court your full name.  25 A  My name is Robert Jackson Sr..  26 THE COURT:  Thank you, sir.  You may sit down.  Mr. Mackenzie.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, does your lordship have an extra copy  28 of Mr. Jackson's affidavit, or can I send one up for  29 your lordship to make notes on?  30 THE COURT:  Yes, I do.  Thank you.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  I apologize for the delay, my lord.  I'm still  32 in the midst of cross-examination upstairs.  33 THE COURT:  Are they carrying on in your absence?  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  That might be a more expeditious way of handling  35 the matter, my lord.  36 THE COURT:  I'm sorry to come down on you, Mr. Mackenzie, but  37 the time has come when we have to really start  38 maximizing our use of courtroom time.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  I have finished my  40 cross-examination really, and I understand we are  41 going to try to finish that witness at noon hour  42 today.  I think we'll finish the counsel too by that  4 3 time.  44  45 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACKENZIE:  46 Q   Mr. Jackson, what is your chief's name?  I mean your  47 personal name. 10095  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  White name or --  2 Q   No.  3 A   -- Chief's name?  4 Q   Your Gitksan name, yes.  5 A   I can't get it in my head now.  Just hang on.  6 Q   Do you want to think about it?  Just relax and I'll  7 ask you some other questions.  We'll come back to it.  8 Is that a fair way to put it?  9 A  My name is Xsemgitgiigeenix.  It's been awhile.  10 THE COURT:  I have the spelling from the affidavit.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  It's in the affidavit at paragraph 2.  12 THE COURT:  Have you got the spelling, madam reporter?  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  14 Q   What is the name of the house of which you are a  15 member?  16 A  Miluulak's house.  17 Q   And that's also in paragraph 2 of your affidavit,  18 Exhibit 598.  And what is the name of the clan to  19 which you belong?  20 A   Lax Seel.  21 Q   And that's the frog clan; right?  22 A   Frog clan.  23 Q   And who holds the name Miluulak now?  24 A  Alice Jeffery.  25 THE COURT:  I'm sorry?  26 A  Alice Jeffery.  2 7 THE COURT:  Thank you.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  29 Q   In your affidavit you refer to the Gunanoot Lake  30 territory in section A; correct?  31 A  M'hm.  32 Q   That's the Miluulak territory?  33 A   Right.  34 Q   You refer to the Driftwood Range territory in section  35 B?  36 A   Haiwas.  37 Q   H-A-I-W-A-S.  And you say that's the territory of  38 Haiwas?  39 A  M'hm.  40 Q   And you say that Haiwas is a house separate from your  41 house?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And the name of the chief who holds the name Haiwas is  44 who?  Is what -- sorry.  45 A   Jimmy Stevens.  46 Q   And section C you talk about the territory at Sam  47 Green Creek? 10096  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  THE COURT  37  MR. macke:  38  39  40  41  THE COURT  42  MR. macke:  43  44  45  46  47  Yes.  And that is another Miluulak territory?  Yes.  Does the House of Miluulak have other territories?  The head rivers of Skeena is one.  That's, I don't  know, belongs to -- well, it was holding by  Xsemgitgiigeenix territory.  That's also under the  Miluulak's territory.  That's up at the headwaters of the Skeena?  M'hm.  And do you know anything about that territory?  Have  you been up there?  Not too much, no.  Did you ever go up there?  We went to -- to the horse trail, or telegraph line  one time, but we didn't get there 'cause my -- the  person that I went with was gonna show me the areas,  but apparently he took sick along the way so we didn't  get to our destination.  Does Miluulak have any other territories?  Not that I know of, no.  When did you take your present name, Xsemgitgiigeenix?  About a year ago.  Would that be in 1987?  Yes.  In the summer.  Did you take it at a feast?  Yes.  Where was the feast held?  Gitanmaax.  Who held that name before you?  Late Johnny Moore.  You took the name at his funeral feast?  Yes.  What was your name before you took Xsemgitgiigeenix?  Galsiitipxaat.  :  We'll need a spelling for that.  JZIE:  Yeah, we'll need a spelling for that, my lord.  There are several spellings, and perhaps I could give  your lordship one of them that appears in the  interrogatories.  :  Yes.  Thank you.  JZIE:  And, my lord, your lordship will not be  surprised to know that this name has come up before,  but it was during the cross-examination of James  Morrison, and it's a spelling that appeared on some of  the interrogatories and maps we looked at that time.  G-A-L-S-I-I-T-I-P-X-A-A-T. 10097  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  I'd be exaggerating if I said I remembered.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  3 Q   And when did you take the name Galsiitipxaat?  4 A   I took the name when I was pretty, pretty young.  I  5 can't recall the years or the months.  6 Q   Have you had any other names?  7 A   I have childhood name which is Axbilxw't, and the  8 teenage name --  9 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  Let's get the childhood name first,  10 please.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  Mrs. Howard is here as a good resource, my lord,  12 and we could perhaps count on her for a spelling.  13 THE COURT:  Yes, she is going to give us that spelling now.  14 THE TRANSLATOR:  A-X underline B-I-L-X-W-'-T.  15 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  B-I?  16 THE TRANSLATOR:  B-I-L-X-W-'-T.  17 THE COURT:  W-T.  Thank you.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  19 Q   And what was your teenage name?  20 A  Wihl Masii.  21 THE TRANSLATOR:  W-I-H-L.  22 THE COURT:  W-I-H-L.  23 THE TRANSLATOR:  Space M-A —  24 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  M or N?  25 THE TRANSLATOR:  M-A-S-I-I.  2 6 THE COURT:  Thank you.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  28 Q   Are those both names in the House of Miluulak?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And did James Angus want to give you another name?  31 A   Yes.  The name would be Dii gyet.  32 THE TRANSLATOR:  D-I-I space G-Y-E-T.  33 THE COURT:  Thank you.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  35 Q   And that is a name in the House of Wii minosik?  36 A   No.  That's a name of the House of Lax Seel.  That's  37 Miluulak.  38 Q   James Angus is in the House of Wii minosik; is he not?  39 A   No.  Not in the House of Wii minosik.  Pardon me, yes.  40 Pardon me.  The correction on that.  I was thinking of  41 Nii Kyap while you were saying that.  The correction  42 on that is yes, it's under the House of Wii minosik,  43 and the name is under Wii minosik, yes.  Sorry about  44 this.  45 Q   Did you take the name Dii gyet?  46 A   I'm withholding the name, yes.  The tradition is we  47 have to strengthen the name before we have -- before 1009?  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 we can claim it.  I haven't yet done that.  2 Q And what does that mean?  3 A You -- you would have to have a feast and then you  4 would have to spend some money on the name that was  5 given to you in order to strengthen and in order to  6 use it so the recognition upon you.  7 Q And if you took -- if you strengthened the name would  8 you become a member of Wii minosik?  9 A By the sounds of it that's why you strengthen it.  10 Q You didn't want to do that?  11 A Not really, no.  12 Q But you still have that opportunity?  13 A Yes, I have the opportunity, but I don't think I'll go  14 through it.  Perhaps what I will do with that name is  15 give it back to the rightful owner.  16 Q I see.  And where were you born, Mr. Jackson?  17 A I was born in Djil Djila.  18 Q And that's the Driftwood Range?  19 A Yes.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  Do we have a spelling for that?  It's in the  21 affidavit.  22 THE COURT:  We have it in the affidavit.  D-J-I-L D-J-I-L-A.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's correct, my lord, section B.  24 Q And what were these -- how did you come to be born out  25 on the Driftwood Range area?  26 A I don't get the question, sir.  27 Q It's not a biological question.  I just want to know  28 the circumstances under which your mother and father  29 would be there?  30 A Well, I don't think I was old enough to remember.  31 Q Do you know why they were there?  32 A Do I know why we were there?  33 Q Yes.  34 A I was too young.  35 Q But why were your mother and father out there at the  3 6 time?  37 A Trapping.  38 Q Whose trapping grounds were they trapping in?  39 A Miluulak.  40 Q And was -- were you born at a --  41 A Pardon me, sir.  Correction.  Djil Djila is Haiwas  42 territory.  43 Q That's -- that's east of the Nilkitkwa River; correct?  44 A Yes.  45 Q Yes.  4 6    THE COURT:  What's the name of the river, Mr. —  47    MR. MACKENZIE:  Nilkitkwa, my lord.  N-I-L-K-I-T-K-W-A. 10099  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  N-I-L.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  K-I-T-K-W-A.  3 THE COURT:  M'hm.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  Your lordship has heard a lot of references to  5 our flight, but we flew over that river --  6 THE COURT:  I'm sure we did.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  — With your lordship, and we looked down on it  8 during our first -- our first stop at Kotsine,  9 K-O-T-S-I-N-E, Mountain, and when we stopped at  10 Kotsine Mountain we were right on the boundary of the  11 Miluulak and Haiwas territory we're speaking about  12 here.  13 THE COURT:  Thank you.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  As claimed by the plaintiffs.  15 Q   So your mother and father were trapping in the Haiwas  16 territory; is that correct?  17 A  M'hm.  18 Q   And that was because that was Miluulak's territory  19 then, wasn't it?  20 A   Pardon me?  21 Q   They were trapping there because that was Miluulak's  22 territory?  23 A   It's Haiwas' territory.  24 Q   Now, were you born in a camp or in a village?  2 5 A   Camp.  26 Q   And you are 65 years old today?  27 A   63.  28 Q   So I have you born in 1915; is that correct?  2 9 THE COURT:  I hope not.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  '25.  I beg your pardon.  1925.  31 Q   Your mother was a member of the House of Miluulak?  32 A   She was Miluulak, yes.  33 Q   What was her name?  34 A   Katherine Jackson.  My grandmother.  Pardon me.  35 Q   Your grandmother's name was Katherine Jackson?  36 A   Katherine Jackson.  37 Q   And what was your mother's name?  38 A   Lillian Jackson.  39 Q   And which house was your father a member?  4 0 A   Fireweed.  41 Q   He was in the --  42 A  Wii seeks.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Sorry.  Wii seeks, my lord.  W-I-I  44 S-E-E-K-S.  45 THE COURT:  Yes.  You said that your mother was Miluulak, and  46 then I'm not sure if you changed that to your  47 grandmother. 10100  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Pardon me.  My grandmother is Miluulak and my mother  2 is the daughter of Miluulak.  3 THE COURT:  Yes.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q   So is it fair to say that just on the basis of what  6 you've said that the members of the House of Miluulak  7 trapped in the Haiwas territory?  8 A   They're under the same -- if I could rephrase the  9 question of Haiwas and Miluulak.  The reason why  10 Haiwas is -- is got a different house is because  11 Miluulak's house was full so they have to have another  12 house which is Haiwas, but they under the same -- the  13 same clan.  14 Q   And when was the different -- when was the Haiwas  15 house started or formed?  16 A   It was before my time.  17 Q   Do you hear about that in the stories of your clan at  18 the time when that happened?  19 A   Correct.  20 Q   Can you tell when it was?  21 A  Well, I heard from my grandmother's story that stated  22 she -- she was pretty young at that time when -- when  23 Haiwas got the house because the House of Miluulak was  24 full.  That's my understanding.  25 Q   Would that be sometime in the 1800's?  26 A   Perhaps.  27 Q   Now, after you were born out at Driftwood Range where  2 8 did you make your home?  And you didn't make your  29 home, but where did your family live at that time?  30 A   They live in Kisgagaas.  31 Q   And did they -- did your family leave Kisgagaas?  32 A   19 -- I think it was in forties.  My mother died when  33 I was -- I don't remember.  I was just a baby then  34 when she died and my grandfather -- my grandmother  35 brought me up.  And we -- they evacuated the people in  36 Kisgagaas.  Mainly there was a lot of doctors,  37 medicares, I guess most is the important word, maybe I  38 could use schooling in forties.  39 Q   And where did your family -- where did you and your  40 grandparents go to live?  41 A  We live in Hazelton.  42 Q   And have you lived in places other than Hazelton since  43 then?  44 A   Yes.  I lived in Prince Rupert.  45 Q   And where else?  46 A   That's all.  47 Q   And when did you live in Prince Rupert? 10101  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  '78 I think  lived there  I think it was in fifties.  Did you ever live at Port Edward?  Yes.  That is part of the Prince Rupert.  And were you living there in 1979?  Yes.  Just a minute now.  Sorry.  Correction, my lord.  Just let me think.  I lived there.  I can't recall whether I  in '79, but I sold my house there, and I think it was  in '78 or '79.  MACKENZIE:  Q   That was in Port Edward?  Port Edward.  Do I understand then you lived there from sometime  in the fifties until '78 or '79?  Yes.  Yes.  Okay.  MACKENZIE:  Q   And then you moved back to Hazelton?  Yes.  And now you live at Hazelton?  Yes.  And where do you live in Hazelton?  Birch Grove.  And where is that?  On the west side of the hospital.  The new subdivision  there.  Now, what -- I understand that you were employed at  one time in the sawmill or logging industry; is that  correct?  M'hm.  When was that?  Well, off and on for a few years.  Can you tell us the times when you were employed in  the sawmill or logging industry, and where it was?  I worked for various companies in surrounding areas in  Prince Rupert for a number of years.  I guess the only  big outfits I worked for is Crown Zellerbach and  MacMillan Bloedel, and the rest is depot efforts.  When you say that do you mean smaller companies?  Smaller companies.  Did you also work for the Kitwanga company at one  time?  No, no.  Never worked in Kitwanga?  No.  Okay.  A  Q  A  Q  A  THE COURT  A  MR.  A  THE COURT  A  THE COURT  MR  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  Now, have you worked in the fishing industry? 10102  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  Q  6  A  7  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  THE  COURT  28  29  30  31  32  A  33  THE  COURT  34  A  35  THE  COURT  36  A  37  THE  COURT  38  A  39  THE  COURT  40  41  A  42  MR.  macke:  43  Q  44  45  46  47  A  Yes.  Can you tell us when that was?  I think I started around '45, 1945 at Nelson Brothers,  Port Edward.  And then what happened?  Then where did you go?  And then the B.C. Packer bought out the Nelson  Brothers still in Port Edward.  Then after that?  And after that was bought out the B.C. Packer was  bought out by the Northern Native Corporations in Port  Edward.  And did you continue to work for that operation?  I continued to work for B.C. Packers, yes.  Then after -- what happened then?  I'm still fishing.  Are you still fishing?  Yes.  Yes.  And when do you -- what times of the year do you  go fishing?  I usually start in June until August.  You go down every year?  Yes.  You have a boat?  Yes.  And how long have you had that boat?  This coming year will be the fourth year.  :  When you told me that you worked for Nelson Brothers  and B.C. Packers and then you stayed with B.C.  Packers, do I take it that you were fishing for them,  you weren't an employed salaried person working for  the company?  Yes.  :  You were fishing for them?  I was fishing and employed.  :  And employed?  Yeah.  :  Yes.  And the boat you have is a gillnetter, is it?  Yes.  :  And did you have a boat before the present one that  you've had for four years or was that your first one?  Rental boat.  JZIE:  When did you complete or -- I don't know whether this  is a correct question, but when was the last time you  were involved in the logging or the sawmill industry,  if I can put it that way?  I think was in '70.  Early seventies, I think. 10103  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   And how would you divide up your time between the  2 fishing industry and the logging industry in those  3 years before the early seventies?  4 A   Fishing is seasonal, and after fishing I find time to  5 work.  6 Q   Would you do other work besides those -- that  7 employment in the fishing industry, or in the logging  8 or sawmilling industry?  9 A   Trapping.  10 Q   How long have you been trapping?  11 A  Well, off and on up until now.  12 Q   When you say off and on do you mean for quite a long  13 time?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And when you say off and on do you mean some years you  16 would be trapping and some years you wouldn't?  17 A   Some years I would, yeah.  18 Q   Well, when you lived in Port Edward and had a house  19 there were you trapping during those years?  20 A   Not, not at all times, no.  Some years when things are  21 quieted down I do come up here and hunt.  22 Q   Sorry.  And hunt?  23 A  M'hm.  24 Q   And what -- if you can answer generally, which area  25 would you be trapping in over the years?  26 A  Well, I trap in Miluulak's territory.  27 Q   And which of those, which of Miluulak's territories?  28 A  Wii Tax.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  Wii Tax.  That's Gunanoot Lake territory.  Do  30 you want a spelling for that, my lord?  31 THE COURT:  I have it, thank you.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  Okay.  33 Q   Are you saying all the years that you have been  34 trapping off and on you've been in the Gunanoot Lake  35 territory?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   Have you trapped at any other territories?  38 A   Yes.  We trapped in Xsi Adee'a.  39 Q   That's Sam Green Creek?  40 A   Sam Green Creek.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  The spelling for that, my lord?  42 THE COURT:  Yes, I have.  Thank you.  I'm sorry.  I confess I  43 don't know where Gunanoot Lake is.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  45 Q   Mr. Jackson, could you tell his lordship where  46 Gunanoot Lake is say in relation to Kisgagaas?  47 A   Gunanoot Lake would lie some -- be northeast from 10104  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Kisgagaas, I think.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  I don't mean to interrupt Mr. Jackson's  3 description, my lord, but on the map it appears to be  4 directly east of Kisgagaas.  And it's -- I will tell  5 your lordship how many miles it is.  6 Q   How many miles is it from Kisgagaas, Mr. Jackson, to  7 Gunanoot Lake?  8 A  About 20.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  20 miles.  If your lordship is looking at  10 Canada's map.  11 THE COURT:  Yes.  I'm sure it's there, but I haven't found it  12 yet.  But is it marked?  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  One good thing to find is look at the Miluulak  14 territory just east of Kisgagaas and it's right in the  15 middle of that territory.  Does your lordship see  16 that?  17 THE COURT:  Yes, I see it.  Where is Sam Green Creek?  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  Sam Green Creek is just northwest of Kisgagaas  19 right on the Babine River in the Miluulak territory  2 0 right there.  Comes down to the Babine River just  21 almost bordering Kisgagaas.  22 THE COURT:  Yes.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  That was the subject of the Westar application.  24 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  That was a territory which was of such concern  26 there.  I'm referring to the logging --  2 7 THE COURT:  Yes.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  — Plans that were enjoined recently by the  2 9 Supreme Court.  30 Q   Have you trapped in any territories other than those  31 two territories you mentioned, Mr. --  32 A   No.  Oh, pardon me.  Other than the two territories  33 mentioned?  34 Q   Yes.  35 A   In other words, you're saying besides them?  36 Q   Yes.  37 A   No.  38 Q   Did you ever trap in the Haiwas territory?  39 A   Years ago, yes.  40 Q   Can you say when that might be?  41 A   Let's see now.  I was pretty young last time I was  42 there.  Perhaps in early forties maybe, or middle  43 forties.  44 Q   Can you recall whether you trapped in any other  45 territories?  46 A   No, I don't.  47 Q   And did other members of the House of Miluulak trap in 10105  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Haiwas' territory?  2 A Yes.  3 Q And you now have a registered trapline in the Miluulak  4 territory of Gunanoot Lake?  5 A Yes.  6 Q And when did you become the owner of that trapline?  7 A I can't say exact date.  It was in the seventies  8 anyways.  9 Q Can you agree that it was in the late seventies?  10 A Yes.  Late seventies.  I think it was in '79.  11 Q And before you became the registered owner who was the  12 registered owner of that trapline?  13 A I believe it -- the last owner was Alec Green, I  14 think.  15 Q And was he a member of the House of Miluulak?  16 A Yeah.  17 Q And your registered trapline doesn't cover all of the  18 territory claimed by Miluulak in Wii Tax, does it?  19 A No, it doesn't.  20 Q You know that Lloyd Morrison also has a registered  21 trapline in the Wii Tax area?  22 A I saw the registration.  23 Q And Lloyd Morrison has what chief's name; do you know?  24 A Wiigyet.  25 Q And he is a member of which house?  26 A Sorry, I don't know.  27 Q Can you tell me which clan?  28 A Sorry, I don't.  29 Q Now, Kathleen Gunanoot, is she still alive?  30 A No.  She's dead.  31 Q Do you know which house that she was in?  32 A Nii Kyap's house.  33 Q And are you aware that there's a registered trapline  34 in her name in your Wii Tax territory north of your  35 trapline?  36 A I was aware of north from Wii Tax territory, yes.  37 Q Are you aware that that registered trapline is in the  38 northern part of your Wii Tax territory?  When I say  39 that I mean the House of Miluulak's Wii Tax territory?  40 A I was aware that Nii Kyap owns the territory north of  41 Gunanoot or Wii Tax territory.  42 Q And do you know the location of the trail from  43 Kisgagaas to Bear Lake?  44 A Yes.  45 Q Is there still a trail or remnants of that trail  46 today?  47 A No.  I think it's all grown in now. 10106  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q That trail goes through Wii Tax territory, does it  2 not?  3 A West end of it, yes.  4 Q Yes.  And Gunanoots would trap on the north side of  5 that trail, wouldn't they?  6 A Yes.  7 Q And that was within the territory that Miluulak claims  8 as Wii Tax territory today?  9 A Miluulak, yes.  10 Q Now, no member of the House of Miluulak has a  11 registered trapline in Haiwas' territory, do they?  12 A No.  13 Q No member of the House of Haiwas has a registered  14 trapline in Haiwas' territory?  15 A Would you repeat that question again, please?  16 Q No member of the House of Haiwas has a registered  17 trapline in Haiwas' territory?  18 A No.  19 Q Do you know who owns the registered traplines in the  20 Haiwas territory?  21 A Just a minute now.  Just let me think.  22 Q Yes.  23 A Okay.  Are you referring who owns -- would you repeat  24 that question again, please?  25 Q Yes, of course.  Perhaps I could rephrase it and ask  26 you do you know who traps in the Haiwas territory now?  27 A I will say a person by the name of William Charlie.  28 THE COURT:  William McCharlie?  29 A Charlie.  30 THE COURT:  William Charlie?  31 A William Charlie.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  33 Q And where does William Charlie live?  34 A Its Tatla Lake, I think.  35 Q And do you know that he's a -- which band would he be  36 a member of?  37 A Perhaps Bear Lake band.  He's a member of -- his Dad's  38 a member of Miluulak's house.  39 Q And he is a member of the Tatla Lake Band now, isn't  40 he?  41 A William Charlie is, yes.  42 Q And his father was Bear Lake Charlie?  43 A Bear Lake Charlie.  44 Q And you have met William Charlie, have you?  45 A Yes.  46 Q Yeah.  And you know that -- or let me ask you when did  47 you meet William Charlie for the first time? 10107  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   I think it was in September '87.  2 Q   And where did you meet him?  3 A   It was Mosque Valley.  4 Q   Can you recall that that was in September 1986?  5 A   Perhaps you're right.  6 Q   And what was the occasion on which you went to Mosque  7 Valley at that time?  8 A  We went to do -- to settle our differences over the  9 overlapping.  10 Q   And who went at that time to Mosque Valley when you  11 say we?  12 A   There was Alfred Joseph.  13 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  14 A  Alfred Joseph, Neil Sterritt Sr., myself, James  15 Morrison, and Neil Sterritt Jr..  16 Q   And with whom did you meet at Mosque Valley?  17 A  William Charlie, Joe Bob, Peter Abraham, William  18 George.  I can't recall the names of the others.  19 Q   And to what group or band do those people belong, if  2 0 you know?  21 A   They're all different groups.  I don't know.  There's  22 some from Bear Lake, some from Tatla, some from  23 Ingenika, and various areas.  I can't name them.  24 Q   Now, you said Ingenika.  Would you tell his lordship  25 where that is, please?  26 THE COURT:  Could I have a spelling of it first, please.  I  27 thought he said Omjineeka.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  I-N-G-E-N-I-K-A.  29 Q   That's the name of a river, is it?  30 A   I don't know, sir.  31 Q   What did you mean when you said Ingenika?  32 A   I just heard it from others.  Where the location is I  33 don't know.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, it doesn't appear on the Canada map,  35 but on the government map Ingenika appears to be the  36 name of a river some distance to the east of the land  37 claimed boundaries in this case.  38 MR. RUSH:  My friend would have to establish that in the minds  39 of the people that Mr. Jackson spoke to that they were  40 talking about the same place.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  42 Q   Now, these people you mentioned, could you  43 characterize their membership in some association?  44 A   They're mostly trappers.  45 Q   And which association or group did they represent?  46 A   I don't know.  Excuse me.  I don't know, sir.  47 Q   Okay.  Can you recall that at the Mosque Valley 1010?  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 meeting Mr. Eddy John was there as well?  2 A Yes, he was there.  3 THE COURT:  Eddy John?  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  Eddy John.  Yes, my lord.  5 Q And you know that he's the president of the  6 Carrier-Sekani Tribal Council?  7 A Yes.  8 MR. RUSH: Was.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  Was.  My friend corrects me.  10 Q In September 1986 Eddy John was the president of the  11 Carrier-Sekani Tribal Council?  12 A Yes.  13 Q And is it fair to say that the people with whom you  14 met at Mosque Valley represented bands which were  15 members of the Carrier-Sekani Tribal Council?  16 A Perhaps.  17 Q And you said that you went to settle a difference of  18 an overlap.  Which overlap is that?  19 A That's in Driftwood.  20 Q Now, when you say Driftwood do you mean -- what do you  21 mean by Driftwood?  22 A Driftwood territory.  23 Q And which territory is that?  24 A That would be north from Babine Village.  25 Q And when you say Babine Village what do you mean?  26 A How else could I put it?  27 Q Well, I'm sorry.  I'm not trying to cause you a  28 problem.  I simply wanted to find out -- perhaps you  29 could say -- tell us where Babine Village is.  30 A Babine Village sits on the west -- or west side of the  31 Babine Lake, Fort Babine.  32 Q Ah, yes.  And that is -- there's a reserve there of  33 the Babine Band.  Do you know that?  34 A M'hm.  35 Q Yes.  Is it fair to say that when you said the  36 Driftwood territory what you meant was that the  37 territory around the Driftwood Range of mountains?  38 A Djil Djila, yes.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  Do you have the spelling for that, my lord?  4 0    THE COURT:  Yes.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  42 Q And is it fair to say that that area includes the  43 territory of Haiwas?  44 A Yes.  45 Q Could you tell his lordship which difference arose or  46 appeared to exist at the Mosque Valley meeting?  47 A Well, they stated that the Sekani people figured that 10109  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 all of Driftwood was their territory, and this is why  2 the reason William Charlie's in that area claiming  3 the -- that was his trapline.  4 Q   Were there any other differences that you discussed?  5 A  William Charlie is a wolf clan, and the territory he  6 is trying to claim is wolf -- pardon me, frog clan  7 territory which is Haiwas.  We discussed some of the  8 parts of various areas that the belonging to Nii Kyap  9 at that time.  10 Q   And you say the territory's claimed by Nii Kyap.  You  11 mean the territory, or one of the territories west of  12 Bear Lake in Haiwas?  13 A   No.  North of -- far north from where Haiwas'  14 territory is.  15 Q   Okay.  What was William Charlie or -- and his -- the  16 other people, what were they saying about the Nii Kyap  17 territory?  18 A  Well, some agreed and some disagreed, but again, it's  19 not my territory so I just pay no attention what's  20 going on.  21 Q   You mean to say that some of the Sekani people were  22 saying that their wolf clan or that their wolf houses  23 claimed land in the Gitksan boundaries?  24 A  Well, what it all come about is the story that the --  25 the adaawk that they give us, which was the Gitksan  26 adaawk, the mountains that they mentioned was on --  27 all in Gitksan language.  The rivers and the creeks,  28 the lakes is also in Gitksan languages, and the roots  29 from Gitksan.  30 Q   And which adaawk did they tell?  31 A   They told how -- how it book to -- to book ownership  32 on some of the land that they have there.  33 Q   Did they tell the adaawk of Spookw?  34 A   No, they didn't.  35 Q   No.  The Sekani people told an adaawk about ownership  36 of the territories?  37 A  M'hm.  And the names, which is the Gitksan names.  38 Q   The Sekani people told the adaawk as a basis for their  39 claim to the territories?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And those are territories within the Gitksan  42 boundaries claimed today?  4 3 A   Some is and some isn't.  44 Q   Which territories did the Sekani people claim within  45 the Gitksan boundaries?  46 A   Driftwood territory.  They have moved a boundary from  47 Xsan Togasxw to Gallix Noo'ohl Loobit. 10110  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  I'll have to get those names, please.  From where to  2 where?  3 A   From Djil Djila to -- oh, pardon me.  Corrections.  4 From Xsan Togasxw to Gallix Noo'ohl Loobit.  5 THE COURT:  All right.  Please.  6 THE SPELLER:  The names are on page five.  7 THE COURT:  On where?  8 THE SPELLER:  Xsan Togasxw is X-S-A-N space T-O-G-A-S-X-W.  9 THE COURT:  Yes.  10 THE SPELLER:  And Gallix Noo'ohl Loobit is G-A-L-L-I-X space  11 N-O-O-'-0-H-L space L-O-O-B-I-T.  12 THE COURT:  Yes.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  14 Q   The first name that you mentioned was Xsan Togasxw,  15 and that is Driftwood River?  16 A   Xsan Togasxw, yeah.  17 Q   As appears on page five of your affidavit.  18 THE COURT:  Yes.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  20 Q   The second name you mentioned was Gallix Noo'ohl  21 Loobit, which is on the boundary between Haiwas and  22 Miluulak; correct?  23 A   Say it again, please?  24 Q   It's on the boundary between Haiwas and Miluulak  25 territory?  26 A   Gallix Noo'ohl Loobit, yes.  27 THE COURT:  Should we take the morning adjournment now, Mr.  28 Mackenzie?  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  30 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court is adjourned 15  31 minutes.  32 THE COURT:  Let's make it ten.  33 THE REGISTRAR:  Ten.  Okay.  34  35 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS)  36  37 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  My lord, we were just speaking  39 about the boundary change that Mr. Jackson referred  40 to, and I wondered if your lordship had a chance to  41 see the reference here?  42 THE COURT:  No, I didn't.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  And I'm going to — does your lordship have a  44 map with the territories marked on it?  4 5 THE COURT:  Yes.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  And now I'm going to ask Mr. Jackson about those  47 two place-names. 10111  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   The Driftwood River flows down the east boundary of  2 territory claimed by Haiwas; is that correct, Mr.  3 Jackson?  That is south of Bear Lake?  4 A   Yes.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  Does your lordship have that?  6 THE COURT:  Yes.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  8 Q   That Driftwood River flows into Tatla Lake; is that  9 correct, Mr. Jackson?  10 A   Yes.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  Does your lordship have that?  12 THE COURT:  Yes.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  14 Q   And the other place name was --  15 THE COURT:  Gallix Noo'ohl Loobit.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  Was the unnamed mountain on the western boundary  17 of Haiwas as Mr. Jackson testified.  18 THE COURT:  Just a moment.  I'll just make a note.  I'm sorry.  19 This other one was the mountain on the boundary --  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  Western boundary of Haiwas.  21 Q   Is that near the Kotsine River headwaters, the second  22 name, Mr. Jackson, Gallix Noo'ohl Loobit?  23 A   That's on west side.  Northwest, I think, or maybe --  24 Q   Northwest of which?  25 A   From the Lip Skanisit.  26 Q   Lip Skanisit.  That's Kotsine Mountain; correct?  27 A   Yes.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  Does your lordship see the Kotsine River running  29 through the southern part of Haiwas?  3 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  The headwaters is Kotsine Mountain where we  32 landed, my lord.  33 THE COURT:  Yes.  It's the one shown with elevation of 6373, is  34 it?  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  Is your lordship looking at Canada's map or the  36 plaintiff's map?  37 THE COURT:  Canada's map.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, there's no — the Kotsine River  39 flows from the Bate Range.  4 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  He's to the Driftwood River, and there's a pass  42 there.  And then if you go through the pass --  4 3 THE COURT:  Yes.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  — You come to the Nilkitkwa River.  4 5 THE COURT:  Yes.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  And Kotsine Mountain is just on the north side  47 of that pass.  And so I don't see the reference that 10112  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 your lordship is making, but it's just north of the  2 7355 peak.  7355 peak is on the south side of the  3 pass.  Does your lordship have that?  4 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  Does your lordship have those references?  6 THE COURT:  Yes.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  So that's the area on the western boundary of  8 Haiwas.  9 THE COURT:  So what you're saying, Mr. Jackson, is that the  10 people at the Mosque Valley meeting wanted to move the  11 boundary of the Gitksan territories westerly from the  12 Driftwood River?  13 A   Yes.  14 THE COURT:  To somewhere east of Kotsine Mountain?  15 A  West of Kotsine Mountain.  16 THE COURT:  West of Kotsine Mountain.  To that valley where  17 we -- where we see this red doted line perhaps?  18 MR. RUSH:  He doesn't have a map in front of him, my lord.  19 THE COURT:  All right.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, your lordship is referring to the Kotsine  21 pass which goes between the headwaters of the Kotsine  22 River and the Nilkitkwa River.  23 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  So did your lordship get the answer to that  25 question?  2 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  28 Q   And what are the differences -- were your differences  29 as expressed at that meeting resolved, settled?  30 A   No, it wasn't settled.  Their answer was that they  31 would come back to us and let us know what they feel  32 about it.  When I questioned William Charlie  33 concerning the boundaries of the territories that he  34 claimed that was given to him by his father the  35 question I gave him was, was it Lax Gibuu territory or  36 Lax Seel territory, and he admit it was Lax Seel  37 territory.  38 Q   And did you have a special assignment given to you at  39 that meeting?  40 A   I don't know what you mean by special assignment.  41 Q   Was something left for you to discuss?  42 A   No, there wasn't anything to it.  43 Q   Wasn't there an agreement that you would meet with  44 William Charlie and resolve your difference in the  45 Driftwood area?  46 A   Yes, but the -- the -- the come about wasn't settled.  47 Q   Have you met with William Charlie since then? 10113  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  We again met in Burns Lake with that feast they have  2 there, but again it wasn't settled at all.  3 Q   And do you recall the feast in Burns Lake was in April  4 1987?  5 A   Yes, I believe so.  6 Q   And you went to that feast?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And who from your Gitksan colleagues went with you?  9 A   There was Alvin Weget, Neil Sterritt Jr., I believe  10 Alfred Joseph was with us, Ralph Michelle.  11 Q   I see.  Did you just confirm that with Ralph who's  12 sitting in the courtroom?  13 A   No.  He was there, but I wasn't too sure if he was or  14 not.  There was a few people.  Jonah Green was there,  15 Solomon Kusick or Jack.  Pardon me.  Solomon Jack  16 along with some people from Kitwancool, which is  17 Marsden, Solomon Marsden.  David Gunanoot, which was  18 Nii Kyap at the time, along with others.  I just can't  19 recall the names.  20 Q   And what was the reason that you and your Gitksan  21 colleagues went to Burns Lake?  22 A   Support.  23 Q   Support?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   With a -- was the -- what did -- why did you go to the  26 feast at Burns Lake?  27 MR. RUSH:  Why did Mr. Jackson go to the feast?  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Yes.  29 A   They put up the feast to -- to do the reports of what  30 is happening at the Mosque Valley, how it become their  31 territory, which was become under Miluulak again.  32 Name was put out by William Charlie.  He claims that  33 there was a Miluulak in Bear Lake as well as Kisgagaas  34 as well as Kispiox and Hazelton, but it's not so.  35 There is only one Miluulak that come from Kisgagaas.  36 Q   Are you aware that there was a Miluulak at Bear Lake?  37 A  According to William Charlie, yes.  38 Q   Did you ever discuss that question with Steve  39 Robinson?  40 A  We may have talked about it, but we never, you know,  41 sit down and really discussed it.  42 Q   Did Steve Robinson tell you that there was a Miluulak  43 at Bear Lake?  44 A   No, but I've heard it from others.  45 Q   Who else did you hear it from?  46 A   Oh, I heard it from -- from various people.  I can't  47 just -- I can't direct them.  What -- okay.  Maybe I 10114  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  THE COURT  10  11  A  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  MR. macke:  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  say a couple of words about being a Miluulak.  The  system -- pardon me.  At Bear Lake the system they use  in Indian system is that when you become, taking a  name from the feast hall, or from passed on to another  person the recognition is there.  The people are in  the feast hall to -- when you given the name they  recognize you are the person that takes the name and  that.  At this time it didn't happen.  William --  :  I'm sorry.  What time are you talking about when you  took your name?  When whoever takes the name, but it didn't happen to  Bear Lake Charlie.  They took -- he took the name of  Miluulak without giving to him in the proper -- proper  procedure.  And he moved to Bear Lake and he claim  himself as a Miluulak.  That's why there is a Miluulak  in -- but it's not -- you know, it's not recognized at  all except his son.  JZIE:  It's not recognized by your people of the Gitksan?  No, not by our people.  No.  Speaking about the Burns Lake feast, you said that  William Charlie was there?  Yes.  And that was a feast that was put on by the  Carrier-Sekani people?  Yes.  And there were other people there from Tatla Lake?  Yes.  Can you recall the names of other people?  No, I'm sorry, I can't.  And is it fair to say that people from the north, the  Carrier-Sekani people from the north spoke about their  territories at Bear Lake?  Yes.  There was quite a few people concerning about  their territories, yes.  And do you recall that Joe Bob was there?  No, he wasn't there.  Oh, some people talked about their territories at  Tutade Lake?  I'm not sure, but there's quite a few -- quite a  number of territories were spoken of.  The Carrier-Sekani people were speaking of the  territories they claimed up between Bear Lake and  Tutade Lake; correct?  Yes.  And can you recall, is it fair to say, that those  Carrier-Sekani people at the Burns Lake feast were 10115  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 speaking about the territories they claim between Bear  2 Lake and Tutade Lake within the -- within the Gitksan  3 boundaries?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Do you recall going on a helicopter flight with Neil  6 Sterritt and other people in June 1983?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Yes.  And did you attend a meeting at Bear Lake about  9 that time as well?  10 A   No, I didn't.  I wasn't with them at that time.  11 THE COURT:  Did you say June '83 for the helicopter flight?  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  13 THE COURT:  Thank you.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  15 Q   And where did you go during that helicopter trip in  16 June 1983?  17 A  We stopped at French Peak first stop, and we stopped  18 again in Djil Djila on the south side of the mountain.  19 Q   And where is French Peak?  20 A   It's south side of Fort Babine.  21 Q   Oh, yes.  Yes, it's just west of Babine Lake.  22 Actually it's just west of Nilkitkwa Lake.  And can  23 you agree that it's just north of -- northeast of  24 Nataldo (phonetic) Mountain?  Do you know that?  25 A   No, I don't.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, this may have to be confirmed in the  27 evidence, but I understand that it's at 6605, the  28 mountain just northeast of Nataldo Mountain.  Talking  29 about French Peak.  30 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  32 Q   So after French Peak you went to Djil Djila, south  33 side, and then where did you go?  34 A  We went around the boundary up Shelagyote Peak up  35 through Atna -- through Atna Pass and then back to  36 Hazelton.  37 Q   Okay.  Now, what was the name of the peak you  38 mentioned, Shelagyote?  39 A   Shelagyote, yes.  40 Q   And which -- that's Shelagyote Peak, is it?  41 A   That's right.  42 Q   That's just southwest of Tutade Lake just on the  43 northern boundary of Wii Kaax; is that correct?  44 A   That's right.  45 Q   Then you went through Atna Pass, and that's just east  46 of Kisgagaas; right, Atna Pass?  47 A  Well, I can't really say, because we never -- we never 10116  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11    I  MR. RUSH  12    I  MR. mack:  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  use compass or maps.  Okay.  Does the Bear Lake trail go through Atna Pass?  Yes.  From Kisgagaas to Bear Lake?  Yes.  And is Atna Pass in your Wii Tax territory?  Yes.  And your Wii Tax territory on both sides of Atna Pass?  Wii Tax?  Wii Tax territory, Miluulak.  Maybe you're mispronouncing.  >JZIE:  Sorry.  Miluulak's territory on both sides of Atna Pass?  Yes.  Have you had any other meetings besides Burns Lake and  Mosque Valley with the Sekani people to discuss the  boundaries of the Gitksan land?  Not since then, no.  Did you have any meetings besides those meetings we  have talked about?  No.  Have you been to the Driftwood River?  Yes.  And are you aware that there are Tatla Lake reserves  along the Driftwood River?  Yes.  And do you know the -- the B.C. Railroad goes up the  east shore of the river?  Yes, I'm aware of that.  Now, going back to the subject we were talking about,  your Miluulak territory, you have been back in  Hazelton since about 1979; is that correct?  Well, to stay, yes.  And you have a cabin up at Kisgagaas?  Two cabins.  Yes.  And you go from Hazelton up to Kisgagaas when  you want to go hunting?  Yes.  And how often do you go hunting up there?  Every year.  And what time of the year do you go hunting?  In the fall.  You go hunting in the -- during the season?  Salmon season?  During the season, hunting season?  Well, not all the times.  We hunt after fishing  September through June. 10117  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q   That's within the provincial regulation, hunting  season regulations?  A   That's their regulations.  We have our own  regulations.  Q   Does it happen you hunt the same time the hunting  season is open?  A   Not necessarily, no.  We hunt any time.  Q   You hunt in the winter as well?  A   Yes.  Q   You hunt in January?  A   For animals you're talking about?  Q   Yes.  A   Big animals?  Q   Big animals.  A  Well, if we need it we get them.  Q   When is the last time you killed a big animal in the  winter?  A   Oh, in December.  Q   December last year?  A   Not every year.  Like I said, we don't, you know,  unless it's necessary we get them.  If we don't want  them we don't get them.  Q   Can you tell his lordship the last time it is you  killed a big animal?  A   Last month.  Q   In November this year?  A   No.  Moose season.  Q   Moose season?  A  M'hm.  Q   Can you tell his lordship when it is the last time you  killed a moose in the winter?  MR. RUSH:  Well, my lord, in Mr. Mackenzie's mind it's the two  weeks in December.  In the witness' mind it might be  four months.  In the north it might be six months.  Perhaps my friend could clarify that for the sake of  the witness.  MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  Q   Do you hunt moose during the season, during the time  between December and March?  A Yes, we do, if you need it.  Q   Sorry.  I beg your pardon.  When is the last time you  hunted a moose between December and March?  A   If we need it in March we get them in March.  If we  don't need it we don't get them.  Q   I understand.  Can you recall -- can you tell his  lordship when the last time it was that you killed a  moose between December and March?  MR. 10118  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  THE COURT  7  A  8  MR. macke:  9  10  THE COURT  11  MR. macke:  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  I think we got one last year in February.  And where did you kill that moose?  Kisgagaas.  Where did you kill it at Kisgagaas?  At the -- between Sam Green and Xsi 'din.  :  Sam Green and where?  Xsi 'din.  JZIE:  Xsi 'din Creek he said flows into the Babine  just at Kisgagaas.  :  Yes.  JZIE:  And so you shot -- took over the registered trapline,  as you say, in 1979; correct?  Yes.  And you have been trapping on that registered trapline  since then?  Yes.  And you -- do you trap every year on the registered  trapline?  Yes.  Is it fair to say that you have retired from your  employment in the fishing industry?  No.  You're still fishing, aren't you?  That's right.  Yes.  So when fishing is finished you come back to  Hazelton and that's when you go trapping?  M'hm.  Yes.  And in connection with your registered trapline  did you apply to the Provincial Government for a  license to occupy and build a trapline cabin on your  territory?  I -- I did apply and then there was -- then I was  rejected.  Mainly why I don't know.  You applied to build two cabins?  The locations, yeah.  You were going to build a cabin at Nilkitkwa River?  Right.  And at Gunanoot Lake?  That's right.  And did you?  I built -- no, I didn't build both places, but I built  in Atna Pass.  Atna Pass?  M'hm.  And with respect to your registered trapline you  applied to the Federal Government for financial 10119  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 assistance to develop your trapline?  2 A   In what way?  3 Q   You applied for financial assistance to assist you in  4 purchasing machinery and building your cabin?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   Yes.  And at that time you indicated that you were  7 only trapping on part of the territory?  8 A   That's right.  9 Q   And which part of the territory was that?  10 A   On the west side.  West part.  11 Q   That's near Atna Pass?  12 THE COURT:  What's the name of that pass, please?  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  Atna, my lord.  A-T-N-A.  14 THE COURT:  Thank you.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  It doesn't appear to be marked on the map.  16 THE COURT:  That's all right.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  But it's just east of Kisgagaas.  18 Q   How far is it from Kisgagaas Reserve to Atna Pass, Mr.  19 Jackson?  20 A   Ten miles.  21 Q   Yes.  And you said in your application that you had  22 really only been trapping on the area full time or  23 since 1979?  24 A   Steady, yes.  25 Q   Yeah.  And that is because you didn't take over the  26 registered trapline until 1979; correct?  27 A  Well, there is another one of the reasons.  One of the  28 reasons is I can go -- even without the authority of  29 being a holder of trapline I can go there any time,  30 because I belong to the house, yes.  31 Q   Yes, that's correct.  But in your application for  32 assistance you said that it had only been since 1979  33 that you had been working full time on the trapline?  34 A  M'hm.  Yes.  35 Q   And that the reason was that -- the reason that you  36 had only been working full time since 1979 is because  37 you became the registered owner of the trapline in  38 1979?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Now, 1979 is a significant date, because just prior to  41 you taking over the registered trapline there was a  42 feast relating to the name of Miluulak, wasn't there?  43 A   There's been several feasts.  I don't know which one  44 you're referring to.  45 Q   Okay.  When did Alice Jeffery take the name Miluulak?  46 A   '79.  47 Q   Yes.  And who held the name Miluulak before Alice 10120  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  MR. RUSH:  38  THE COURT  39  40  MR. RUSH:  41  THE COURT  42  43  44  45  46  MR. RUSH:  47  Jeffery?  Mariam Russell.  Yes.  And after Mariam Russell died someone had to  take the name Miluulak; correct?  Right.  And who were the candidates to take the name Miluulak?  I was next in line for one of the candidates.  And you wanted to take the name Miluulak?  I didn't want to take the name, it was to be given to  me.  Yes.  I'm sorry.  Members of the house wanted to give  you the name Miluulak?  I was selected in my young days and they waited until  I was mature person before they give it to me.  You were selected when you were young?  Yes.  Who -- can you say who selected you?  The family.  So is it fair to say you expected to be given the  name?  More or less, yes.  And is it fair to say -- who was the other person who  expected to be given the name Miluulak?  Freddie Starr.  And is he a member of the house, I take it?  Yes.  Yes.  And where does Freddie Starr live?  Kispiox.  Has he lived anywhere else, to your knowledge?  He lived in Courtenay at one time.  How long ago was that?  I can't recall.  Did anyone else expect to be given the name Miluulak?  Perhaps Alice Jeffery is expecting the name.  Can you say why Freddie Starr expected that he would  get the name Miluulak?  I object to that.  :  Your objection, Mr. Rush, is that the witness  wouldn't know what Freddie Starr was thinking?  Yes.  :  I suppose unless Freddie Starr told him, or if he  knew of some circumstances or surrounding facts.  I  suppose if Freddie Starr's grandmother was Miluulak  and his mother was Miluulak maybe he would expect to  be Miluulak.  My objection is the question is penetrating the mind  of the person not here.  I think the proper question 10121  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 is what is your understanding about or why do you  2 think he expected it or what are the circumstances or  3 something.  4 THE COURT:  I think that would be probably permissible, Mr.  5 Mackenzie.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  7 Q   What was your understanding of why Freddie Starr  8 expected to be given the name Miluulak?  9 A   Because my understanding of former Miluulak, which is  10 my grandmother, sister to Freddy's -- Freddy Starr's  11 mother.  12 THE COURT:  Your grandmother was the sister of Freddie Starr's  13 grandmother?  14 A   Yes.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  16 Q   Your grandmother you say was Miluulak?  17 A  My grandmother, yes.  18 Q   And what is your understanding of why Alice Jeffery  19 would expect to receive the name Miluulak?  20 A  Well, I have no answer for that, sir.  21 Q   So on Mariam Russell's funeral day was the question of  22 who would take the name Miluulak settled?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Was it settled before Mariam Russell's funeral?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   Could you tell his lordship how it was settled?  27 A  We have a meeting as a family and we come to the  28 conclusion where Alice Jeffery would take Miluulak and  29 then I would take the territory, or the responsible --  30 perhaps be responsible for the territory.  31 Q   And what was decided with respect to Freddie Starr, if  32 anything?  33 A   He's all for it.  34 Q   He supported that?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And then you asked that the registered trapline be  37 recorded in your name and in Freddie Starr's name?  38 A   Correct.  39 Q   And so today you and Freddie Starr are the registered  40 holders of the trapline?  41 A   Right.  42 MR. RUSH:  Are you putting that proposition to him directly?  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  I don't know, that's why I asked him.  44 THE COURT:  He agreed with it.  4 5 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  47 Q   You had -- you said to his lordship -- you told his 10122  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  THE COURT  7  A  8  MR. macke:  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  22  A  23  24  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  38  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  44  Q  45  A  46  THE COURT  47  A  lordship that you had a meeting of the family; is that  correct?  Right.  And where was that meeting held?  Freddie Starr's house in Hazelton.  :  Sorry.  New Hazelton  JZIE:  Was anyone there besides members of Miluulak?  Yes.  Who else was there?  There was quite a number of people.  Chiefs.  Yes.  What was the reason that other chiefs were  there?  To witness.  Is it fair to say that the family couldn't resolve the  problem themselves?  They did solve the problems themselves, but they have  to have the outsiders as a witness.  Is it fair to say that the outside chiefs were called  in to settle the problem?  The only time chiefs can solve the problems is when an  even vote not settled amongst the family, but if it's  settled in the families then outsiders can't settle  it.  And do you recall that Mary McKenzie was at the  meeting?  Yes.  And she's in the Lax Gibuu clan?  Yes.  Her chief's name is Gyolugyet?  Yes.  So if someone were to say that the outside chiefs were  called in to settle the dispute that would be -- that  would be an incorrect statement?  If -- if it's not settled in the family then perhaps  they then take it to the high authority, which is the  chiefs, to settle it.  Is that what happened in this case?  There was some conflict, but it isn't lasted long  because my brother-in-law, which is Eli Turner, stated  that Alice Jeffery would take the name and I would  take the territory.  Which house is Eli Turner in?  A killer whale.  :  Sorry?  Killer whale. 10123  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  2 Q   He's in the Gisgaast clan?  3 A   No.  He's Neexhl.  Gisgaast, yes.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  And we'll have to get the spelling of that word  5 that you used.  6 A   Neexhl.  7 THE SPELLER:  N-E-E-X underline H-L.  8 THE COURT:  H-L?  9 THE SPELLER:  Yes.  10 THE COURT:  Is that killer whale?  11 THE SPELLER:  M'hm.  12 THE COURT:  Is that a crest of the Gisgaast clan, is it not?  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  14 Q   Is that a crest of the Gisgaast clan?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And is that word that you used, does that mean killer  17 whale?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Do you know which house Eli Turner is in?  20 A   Sorry.  I don't know.  21 Q   Do you know whose -- who Eli Turner's wife is?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   Who is that?  24 A   It's Freddie Starr's sister Amy.  25 THE COURT:  Eli Turner's wife Amy is Freddie Starr's sister, is  26 that what you said?  27 A   Yes.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  29 Q   So the idea was that Alice Jeffery would sit in  30 Miluulak's seat at the feast?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And you would have the authority of looking after the  33 territory?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Yes.  Does that mean that Alice Jeffery does not have  36 the authority of looking after the territory?  37 A  Well, there can't be two of us on territory.  One has  38 to be the spokesman.  No, she has -- she can go on the  39 territory, but she can't say, you know, what's to be  40 done on it.  41 Q   Does that apply to Haiwas' territory as well?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   So Alice Jeffery can say who can go on the territory,  44 but she can't -- she has no authority or  45 responsibility for the Haiwas territory?  46 A   No.  I can say who's going on the territory.  47 Q   Yes.  You can control who goes on the Haiwas 10124  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 territory?  2 A   No, I can't say that, but I can say on Miluulak's  3 territory.  4 Q   Can you control who goes on Miluulak's territory at  5 the headwaters of the Skeena?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And you said there is no one up trapping in that  8 territory now, is there?  9 A   Not right now, no.  10 Q   No one has been up there since Johnny Moore died, has  11 there?  12 A   That's correct.  13 Q   And Johnny Moore hasn't been up there since the  14 1940's?  15 A   I don't know.  I can't tell you that.  16 THE COURT:  You say the same doesn't apply to Haiwas' territory.  17 Does that mean that you are not responsible for the  18 Haiwas territory?  19 A  We are to a certain extent.  If you could understand  20 our system, the system we're using is one not there  21 then we fill in.  22 THE COURT:  Well, who's responsible for the Haiwas territory  23 now?  24 A   The chief Haiwas is Stevens, Jimmy Stevens.  25 THE COURT:  And he's responsible for the territory?  26 A   He's responsible for the territory.  27 THE COURT:  All right.  Should we adjourn for lunch, Mr.  28 Mackenzie?  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  30 THE COURT:  Did somebody say we were going to resume at 1:30  31 today or was that --  32 MR. RUSH:  The only reference about schedule I heard was Mr.  33 Grant indicated he wanted to try to complete Mr.  34 Morris out of court over the lunch hour.  35 THE COURT:  Yes.  36 MR. RUSH:  And I think that some arrangement had been made to  37 that extent, but I'm happy to carry on within an hour  38 or an hour and a bit.  39 THE COURT:  What do you say, Mr. Mackenzie?  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, Mr. Grant has taken — has taken a very  41 strong position and has insisted that Mr. Morris be  42 finished today.  In my weakened state this morning I  43 may have agreed to sit at noon hour.  4 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  At which time I'll be even more weakened.  46 THE COURT:  Well, that's the advantage of youth, Mr. Mackenzie.  47 Well, I think we better say that we'll be -- we'll 10125  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 resume here at 1:30 if it's possible to do so.  If it  2 isn't we'll resume here at two o'clock.  3 MR. RUSH:  Mr. Grant just whispered in my ear the agreement was,  4 as he understood it, at lunch the cross-examination of  5 Mr. Morris would go from quarter to one until two.  6 THE COURT:  Until two.  I thought the cross-examination had been  7 finished.  8 MR. RUSH:  Of one of the counsel.  9 THE COURT:  Your cross-examination is finished, Mr. Mackenzie?  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  Except some questions Mr. Grant has asked me to  11 read in from the examination for discovery.  12 THE COURT:  All right.  No point in suggesting we are going to  13 come back at 1:30.  14 MR. RUSH:  I think not.  15 THE COURT:  Okay.  Two o'clock.  16 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  17  18 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED FOLLOWING LUNCHEON RECESS)  19  20 THE REGISTRAR:  Witness, I remind you, you are still under oath.  21 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord.  23 THE COURT:  Yes, Mr. Mackenzie.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  25 Q   We were speaking about the Miluulak feast where Alice  26 Jeffery was given the name Miluulak.  Do you recall  27 that discussion?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Yes.  And you said as a result of that event you,  30 Xsemgitgiigeenix, have authority over the Miluulak  31 territory; is that correct?  32 A   Right.  33 Q   You, Xswmgitgiigeenix, is who goes on to the Miluulak  34 territory; is that right?  35 A   Right.  36 Q   What are Alice Jeffery's responsibilities now after  37 she became Miluulak?  38 A   Her authority is in the house and to speak overall.  39 Q   Now, Alice Jeffery has never been out onto the  40 Gunanoot Lake territory, has she?  41 A   That's correct.  42 Q   And Alice Jeffery has never been up to the headwaters  43 of the Skeena Miluulak territory, has she?  44 A   Correct.  45 Q   And Alice Jeffery now lives in Surrey; correct?  46 A   Correct.  47 Q   And how long has Alice Jeffery lived in Surrey? 10126  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   I have no idea.  2 Q   Alice Jeffery has a 23 year old son.  Are you aware of  3 that?  4 A   Repeat that again, please?  5 Q   Alice Jeffery has a 23 year old son.  Are you aware of  6 that?  7 A   No, I don't.  8 Q   That's William Henry.  Do you know him?  9 A   No, sorry, I don't.  10 Q   Do you know he was born in Vancouver?  11 A   Sorry, I don't.  12 Q   Okay.  Mrs. Jeffery was at the Miluulak headstone  13 feast?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And that was after the funeral feast?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   That's the last time you saw her in a feast in  18 Hazelton; is that correct?  19 A   Yes.  2 0 THE COURT:  When was that?  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  22 Q   When was the headstone feast?  Sorry.  Can I assist  23 you by suggesting it was 1986?  24 A   I just can't recall just the exact date when or the  25 year when that happened.  26 THE COURT:  This was the headstone feast for who?  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  For headstone.  28 THE COURT:  For the previous Miluulak?  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  30 Q   The headstone feast was for whom?  31 A   For Miluulak.  32 Q   For Mariam Russell?  33 A  Mariam Russell.  34 Q   Yes.  35 THE COURT:  And you say it was in 1986?  36 A   No, I didn't say that.  I can't recall the exact year  37 that was.  38 THE COURT:  A few years ago?  39 A  A few years ago, yeah.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  41 Q   When was the last time before that that you saw Alice  42 Jeffery at a feast in Hazelton?  43 A   That was the only time I saw her was when she put that  44 stone.  45 Q   Was she at the Mariam Russell funeral feast?  46 A   She was there.  47 Q   When was that? 10127  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  THE COURT  13  A  14  THE COURT  15  MR. macke:  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  22  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  That was in '79.  December '78?  Nine I think.  Yes.  Have you attended other feasts in Hazelton  between 1979 and today?  Quite a few.  Do any other members of the House of Miluulak trap on  the Gunanoot Lake territory?  No, not right now.  Just my son's out there.  And what is your son's name?  Vincent.  :  Sorry?  Vincent.  :  Thank you.  JZIE:  And Vincent does not -- is not a member of your  registered trapline, is he?  No, he's not.  He doesn't belong to the house, but I  give him permission.  Yes.  After you received authority to control the  territory in 1979 you arranged for the Gitanmaax Band  Council to pass a resolution confirming that?  Sorry.  I wouldn't use the name arrangement.  I didn't  arrange anything.  They suggested that I would go for  that route mainly because I wasn't known at that time,  and some of the chiefs mainly because I've been away  from Hazelton for quite a long time, and in order  to -- to get the chiefs to know me I would go to the  band counsellors and have him -- have them set it up  for me.  That's the direction I took.  Why did you have the Gitanmaax Band Council do that?  I believe that's where the authority is at the time.  I can't -- I can't go up to the chief and tell him to  recognize me if I'm not being recognized by them.  It  has to come from someplace, and that's the direction I  went for.  And a band council resolution was passed.  Are you  aware of that?  I imagine so.  I wasn't at counsel then.  You've seen the band council resolution?  Yes, I did.  And it was dated November -- November 6th, 1979, or do  you recall that?  Yes.  The band council resolution resolved that upon your  request that the registered trapline be registered in  your name, Freddie Starr and Company.  That is Robert 10128  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  25  26  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  MR. RUSH  40  MR. mack:  41  42  43  44  45  MR. RUSH  46  47  THE COUR1  Jackson Sr., Freddie Starr and Company?  That's right.  And what was then done with that band council  resolution?  Nothing.  But are you aware that it was sent to the Fish and  Wildlife Branch?  No, I didn't.  No.  How did you go about having your name recorded  as -- that is with the Fish and Wildlife Branch as a  holder of a registered trapline?  I don't know how they got ahold of it, but I'm not  aware of it.  Did you -- did you go to the Fish and Wildlife Branch  office to discuss it with a conservation officer?  I don't recall, sir.  Did you -- did you meet Mr. Gillian, the conservation  officer, at that time?  About the register?  Yes.  Yes, I went and see him.  And what did you discuss with Mr. Gillian?  I point out that the name was given to me.  I'm sorry.  Correction.  The authority was given to me that I  would be considered on the trapline, registered  trapline.  And did you sign a trapline application form?  Yes.  Can you recall when you signed that form?  Just having  a little difficulty finding it.  I can't say its exact year, but I believe it was in  '79.  And then did you send in a fur return after that time?  Yes.  And you reported on the number of furs that you had  taken on your trapline?  I believe before I send it I did that.  I'm just showing you a copy of the --  Would you show it to me, please, first.  \FZIE:  I must say, my lord, we have sent all these  copies to my friends, and notice to admit, and we have  had no affirmative response, but I'm going to give  that to my friend to look at.  It's a trapline  application dated December 13th, 1979, a copy of it.  I don't think it's quite correct to say there's been  no response.  :  He said no positive response or affirmative response 10129  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 is what he said.  2 MR. RUSH:  That part is true.  3 THE COURT:  Yes.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q   This is a copy.  I'm going to ask you whether that's  6 your signature on that document, please?  7 A   Yes.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  Let's admit that as the next exhibit.  9 THE COURT:  What's the next exhibit number, please?  10 THE REGISTRAR:  831.  11 THE COURT:  Exhibit 831.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'll provide a copy to the —  13 THE COURT:  What's the date again?  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  December 13, 1979.  15 THE COURT:  Thank you.  16  17 (EXHIBIT 831:  Trapline Registration document  18 dated December 13, 1979)  19  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  21 Q   I'm showing to you an application for renewal and  22 return of registered trapline holder dated January 7,  23 1982.  Is that your signature?  24 A   Yes.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  I submit that as the next exhibit, my lord.  2 6 THE COURT:  8 32.  27 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  28  29 (EXHIBIT 832:  Application for Renewal and Return of  30 Registered Trapline Holder dated January 7, 1982)  31  32 MR. RUSH:  My lord, I just want to point out that my friend is  33 putting a series of documents to the witness and an  34 informal recommendation was made to counsel that  35 either a list or the documents that were intended to  36 be put to a witness would be provided to the other  37 side.  This was not done.  Although I can say that I'm  38 not crying wolf here, because it comes as no surprise  39 to me that the trapline documents would be put to the  40 witness, but I simply want to say for the record that  41 to the extent that there may be other documents coming  42 or that I have no knowledge of or not had an  43 opportunity to put to the witness that no such  44 information was provided.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  I'd like to respond to that, if I  4 6 may.  47 THE COURT:  Well, are there any more documents coming? 10130  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  I provided — as I said, I  2 provided voluminous notice to admit with most of these  3 trapline documents early November, and I also  4 yesterday, or on Monday my letter suggesting --  5 suggesting documents to be used in Mr. Morris'  6 cross-examination was called an insult or insulting.  7 Of course, I won't make the submission that follows  8 from that, but that's the context these exchanges have  9 now been put.  10 THE COURT:  Well, I don't really think I can do much about how  11 counsel want to characterize each other's  12 communications.  I think we should get along and see  13 what happens.  If there's a problem I'll have to deal  14 with it as best I can.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  And furthermore, my lord, at least two weeks  16 ago --  17 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie, I really don't want to hear about  18 this, you know.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord —  20 THE COURT:  This is none of my business.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  I know, my lord, but we were following your  22 lordship's suggestion.  23 THE COURT:  Your friend has suggested that you have not followed  24 my suggestion.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, yes.  26 THE COURT:  And it seems to me if a problem arises I may have to  27 deal with it, but I do not think I should be troubled  28 by what's going on between counsel behind the scenes.  29 That's counsel's province, not mine.  And I have to  30 deal with the matters as they arise in court, and I  31 don't want to get into the pleasantness or  32 unpleasantness.  I don't share the pleasantness that  33 goes on between counsel and I sure don't want to share  34 the unpleasantness, so let's get on with the  35 examination of the witness.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  37 Q   I'm showing to you a letter dated May 24, 1979, from  38 Mr. Neil J. Sterritt to Mr. Arnold Shanost, band  39 manager Gitanmaax Band, and there's a copy shown as  40 being sent to Robert Jackson, Port Edward.  Did you  41 receive a copy of that letter?  42 A   I don't recall, sir.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  The next document that has been exhibited  44 earlier, my lord, I'm just trying to get the  45 reference.  Yes.  This document is band -- I'm sorry.  46 Q   This document is band council resolution Gitanmaax  47 Band dated November 6, 1979, Exhibit 395.  Is that the 10131  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 band council resolution to which you referred in your  2 evidence?  3 A   Yes.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, that's Exhibit 395.  5 THE COURT:  Yes.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  Does your lordship wish to review that?  7 THE COURT:  I don't need another copy.  Well, if you have an  8 extra copy it would make it easier to keep it together  9 of the documents used.  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  All right.  I'll have to have a copy made for  11 your lordship.  12 THE COURT:  All right.  Don't bother.  13 MR. RUSH:  I have a copy of the exhibit, my lord.  I don't need  14 a copy.  So if it would be helpful for you to have  15 one.  16 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  18 Q   This next document is Exhibit 424, a statement dated  19 October 23, 1979 signed by several people which reads,  20 "We the undersigned recognize that Robert Jackson Sr.  21 is Galsiitipxaat at that time, and that we were in  22 attendance and witnessed a feast at Kispiox, B.C. held  23 on behalf of the late Mariam Russell of Glen Vowell at  24 which Jeffery Russell received the name Miluulak and  25 at that time Galsiitipxaat had title to and herein  26 described to be located at 55 degrees 30 minutes north  27 and 126 degrees 40 minutes west."  And signed by  28 Thomas Danes, frog clan, Arthur Kusick, wolf clan,  29 Stephen Robinson, wolf clan, Jesse Sterritt, frog  30 clan, and Mr. Campbell.  Maybe Tom Campbell, frog  31 clan.  32 A   Joshua Campbell.  33 Q   Joshua Campbell.  Is that the declaration that was  34 made, to your knowledge?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And that relates to the feast at which you received  37 the authority to control the territory?  38 A   Those are the witnesses when I got the territory, yes.  39 Q   And that reference to the latitude and longitude is  40 the reference to your registered trapline, isn't it?  41 A   Correct.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  Does your lordship wish to review that document?  4 3 THE COURT:  No, no.  I remember it anyway.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  45 Q   And referring to the band council resolution there's a  46 reference in the band council resolution to the  47 trapping and hunting ground herein described to be 10132  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  THE COURT  12  A  13  THE COURT  14  MR. macke:  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  located at 55 degrees 30 minutes north and 126 degrees  40 minutes west, and that reference is also to your  registered trapline, isn't it?  Well, all this -- yes.  All this latitude was made --  was made by your government.  It wasn't made by the  council.  Yes.  Thank you.  Now, speaking about houses, Miluulak  and Haiwas, can you agree with me that many of the  members of Miluulak are also members of Haiwas?  I agree.  :  I'm sorry.  I agree.  :  Thank you.  JZIE:  And you're aware that at the beginning of this  litigation Miluulak only was -- sorry.  Yes, Miluulak  was a plaintiff in the lawsuit and Haiwas was not?  Haiwas is always there.  Not just Miluulak.  Okay.  In 1984 in this -- in the writ it was Miluulak  only that was mentioned.  Are you aware of that?  Territory, yes.  But Miluulak as a plaintiff was only mentioned and  Haiwas was not mentioned.  Are you aware of that?  No, I wasn't aware of that.  And Haiwas was added as a plaintiff, a named  plaintiff, in 1986.  Did you know that?  No, I'm sorry, I wasn't aware of it.  Can you tell -- oh, you weren't aware of it.  Did you  hear a discussion about adding Haiwas as a separate  plaintiff in 1986?  Well, to my knowledge Haiwas is always there.  The  Haiwas it's in the same house only -- only the reason  why Haiwas is separate house is because our house is  full.  We're in the same family.  You have the same territories?  Same territories.  So there's no -- there is no separation.  You're all  one family?  More or less, yes.  Yeah.  So you all claim the same territory?  Yes, just about.  Yes.  And Mr. James Stevens swore an affidavit with  interrogatories on February 19, 1987, an interrogatory  59C, Mr. James Stevens, who's Haiwas said, "My  territory is the same as the Miluulak territory near  Kisgagaas.  This territory is located east and north  of Kisgagaas.  It does not include Mount Horetzky.  It 10133  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 goes as far east as Driftwood River and North Bear  2 Lake.  Haiwas use the eastern territory."  And that's  3 true?  4 A   True.  5 THE COURT:  Who made that interrogatory, that response?  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  James Stevens.  Haiwas.  7 Q   Now, I want to ask you some more questions about  8 Miluulak, Mr. Jackson.  You know the adaawk of  9 Miluulak?  10 A   Some.  11 Q   Some.  Are you aware of the fact that Miluulak has the  12 name T'sim yaas?  Did I pronounce it correctly?  13 A   That's the name of the house.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  Could we have a spelling for that.  Could you  15 pronounce that for me?  Correct my pronounciation.  16 AT'sim yaas.  17 THE TRANSLATOR:  T-S-I-M Y-A-A-S.  18 THE COURT:  And that's a house?  19 A   Yes.  2 0 THE COURT:  In which clan?  21 A   Frog clan.  22 THE COURT:  Thank you.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  24 Q   That's another name for the house of which Miluulak is  25 chief; correct?  26 A   That's the name of a house that we own in Miluulak --  27 as Miluulak, one house.  28 Q   Would you tell his lordship what that term means,  29 T'sim yaas?  30 A  Well, it's sort of a long story.  I'll cut it short.  31 There was a lady was captured by the -- the warriors  32 from Sekani people, and they came to Bear Lake to get  33 their supplies, which is Hudson Bay was located in  34 Bear Lake in the time, and this one employee that  35 works for the Bay noticed something different about  36 this woman and so they told the other -- the other  37 guys, which was a white person, and they kidnapped  38 this woman and they put her in the fence, and that's  39 what -- that's when the house is called T'sim yaas, to  40 help her keep from this war.  41 Q   The fence that was around the Hudson Bay Post?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And what happened after that to the young lady?  44 A   They -- how they capture this lady was they have --  45 they sold them -- they sold the people fire water at  4 6 that time.  47 Q   Hudson Bay sold the Sekani fire water? 10134  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  3  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  9  Q  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  THE COURT  32  A  33  THE COURT  34  A  35  THE COURT  36  A  37  MR. macke:  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  46  47  Yes.  So they could hold this lady, which they did.  I  guess it tasted so good they just continue drinking it  until they get ahold of what they want.  They got the lady, and then what happened to the young  girl?  They put her into this fence, the fence around her,  and they kept her there until everything is quietened  down before they let her loose.  And where did she go then?  A couple of fellows escorted her back to her  destinies, which was Anx Binaawa, where they let her  go.  That's Gunanoot Lake territory?  Gunanoot Lake.  And she recognized the country and  then she went on her own.  And where did she go?  She went to Kisgagaas.  And how does the Miluulak house name relate to that  story?  That's when it become the name of -- of the house  T'sim yaas, and she told the story about what  happened -- what had happened.  You know when that took place?  No.  That's before my time.  All right.  I guess it would have to have taken  place -- okay.  We won't get into that.  Perhaps 17, I guess.  It relates to when the Hudson Bay Company came to Bear  Lake, I take it?  Yes.  :  When you said 17 there what did you mean?  Hundreds.  :  In the 1700's?  Perhaps.  Nothing definite, but I'm --  :  You weren't suggesting 1917?  No.  JZIE:  Do you know if Wiigyet got a pole or a name out of  that story as well?  No, I don't.  Now, so you personally are a member of Miluulak?  Yes.  And you are also a member of Haiwas?  I wouldn't -- if you can -- if you can clarify what  you mean by member.  You could be a member of all  things.  You know, you could be a member of Tsimshian  on a trapline.  You could be a member of whatever.  If 10135  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 I can say I'm a member of Miluulak and a member of  2 Haiwas, which is in same clan, I would say in our  3 system is all brothers and sisters, so yes, I'll admit  4 that.  5 Q   Will you admit that you, Robert Jackson Sr., are a  6 member of the House of Haiwas and a member of the  7 House of Miluulak?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   I'd like to ask you something about the boundaries of  10 the territories, because you discussed them in your  11 affidavit.  And the first area I want to discuss with  12 you is Lax an Hakw.  That is near Shedin.  Do you know  13 that area?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And that's shown in English as Shelf Ridge?  16 A   Yes.  17 THE COURT:  What territory are you talking about now, Mr.  18 Mackenzie, please?  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, actually it's section C, Sam  20 Green territory, Sam Green Creek.  Well, it is and it  21 isn't.  That's what we are going to get into.  22 THE COURT:  All right.  But it's paragraph C of the affidavit?  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  24 THE COURT:  All right.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  26 Q   Now, is Shelf Ridge within your territory at Sam Green  27 Creek?  28 A  Well, if you tell me the name in Indian maybe I would  2 9 know.  30 Q   Yes.  Lax an Hakw is part of your territory at Sam  31 Green Creek?  32 A   It runs along the high ridge.  33 Q   Your boundary runs along the centre of Shelf Ridge,  34 Lax an Hakw?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Yes?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Yes.  39 THE COURT:  I think, Mr. Mackenzie, if you're going to embark  40 upon a discussion on a map perhaps you could give it  41 to him now, let him look at it and take the  42 adjournment so he can take the time to familiarize  43 himself with it.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  4 5 THE COURT:  Thank you.  46 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  47 10136  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS)  2  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  5 Q   Do you know a feature on Shelf Ridge?  My lord, Shelf  6 Ridge is -- this came up during Mr. Morris'  7 cross-examination.  8 THE COURT:  Yes, I remember it.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  I have — I have a detailed map of this area  10 with the plaintiffs map 9A overlaid on it.  This is --  11 yeah, this is a map with the numbers on it.  Show  12 interrogatories maps.  Just to give -- handing this  13 up -- I'm handing just to give the geographical  14 features.  And this is an aide-memoire.  The  15 boundaries are overlaid and just give an idea of where  16 things are.  It's not exact.  We're speaking about the  17 Sam Green Miluulak territory, which is just northwest  18 of Kisgagaas there.  And Shelf Ridge is shown running  19 up the -- running up just west of Shedin Creek.  This  20 runs up northwest of Kisgagaas.  21 THE COURT:  Yes.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yeah.  23 Q   I'm just going to ask you, Mr. Jackson, do you know a  24 feature Gwin wijix?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And is that on Shelf Ridge?  27 A   Excuse me.  I know -- no.  I'm just talking about  28 Shelf Ridge.  He was saying -- what does that mean?  29 Q   Lax an Hakw.  30 A   Lax an Hakw.  It's not here.  Lax an Hakw is different  31 mountain.  32 Q   You know Gwin wijix as Tommy Jack Mountain?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   I'm just going to ask you now is it fair to say that  35 all of Shelf Ridge is in Miluulak's territory?  36 MR. RUSH:  Well, he doesn't know the feature as Shelf Ridge.  37 That's clear from --  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  39 Q   It's fair to say that all of Lax an Hakw is in  40 Miluulak's territory?  41 A   How do you read your map when you say all of Lax an  42 Hakw?  43 Q   Does Lax an Hakw --  44 A   From the base or from the top?  45 Q   From the south point up to the north point just south  46 of Dam Similo'o Lake; right?  47 A   That is nothing to do with the Miluulak. 10137  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   That's not in Miluulak's house?  2 A   No.  3 Q   Do you know a geographical feature Ansan gwiikw?  4 A  Ansan gwiikw?  5 Q   Yes.  6 A   Oh, Ansan gwiikw.  Is that the name of the place or --  7 Q   Yes.  8 A  Well, Ansan gwiikw means to me it's where you get your  9 groundhog.  10 Q   I'm sorry.  11 A   But I don't think there's any mountain that's named  12 Ansan gwiikw.  13 Q   Okay.  I'm showing you a note recorded by Neil  14 Sterritt on July 7, 1979, and it says all of Shelf  15 Ridge except Gwin wijix location, and Gitksan names  16 Ansan gwiikw, territory of gax t'ipxaat.  Main crest  17 Lax Seel.  Village Kisgagaas.  18 MR. RUSH:  I think you should carry on and read the whole thing  19 so he knows.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  21 Q   It's recorded by Neil Sterritt on July 7, 1979.  It's  22 shown as the informant Henry Wright, and it says other  23 notes, "James Morrison, David Green and Joshua  24 McLean."  So your — in 1979 — in 1979 your chief's  25 name was Galsiitipxaat, wasn't it?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Was all of Shelf Ridge, all of Lax an Hakw in your  28 territory at that time?  29 MR. RUSH:  Is that a fair question to put to the witness?  He  30 says he doesn't know about Lax an Hakw.  31 A   There is no mountain called Ansan gwiikw.  To me it's  32 where you get the food groundhog.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  34 Q   Yes.  Okay.  So Miss Howard has the note there, you  35 don't know any -- your evidence is you don't know any  36 geographical feature, specific geographical feature  37 with the name Ansan gwiikw.  Is that your evidence?  38 A   Not the mountains, no.  39 Q   You don't know the Gitksan name for Shelf Ridge?  40 A   Lax an Hakw.  I know where Lax an Hakw is, yes.  41 THE COURT:  I'm not sure how madam reporter is going to get all  42 this down.  43 A   You're getting me all confused there.  You're saying  44 one thing to the other.  If you can -- if you can  45 start off where you want to start and then -- and then  4 6 maybe I could follow you.  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  Okay. 1013?  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  Just stop for a minute.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  Let's get the spellings of the names, please.  3 THE COURT:  You see that madam reporter gets a copy of the  4 sheet.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  6 Q   Mr. Jackson, actually I was simply referring to this  7 data sheet that was written by Mr. Neil Sterritt, and  8 he refers to territory.  He says it's in your  9 territory, and that's all I'm asking you is whether it  10 is.  And so could you then read over that data sheet  11 which Mrs. Howard has and tell his lordship whether  12 you know anything about it, the features mentioned?  13 A   No.  Nothing to do with -- let's see now.  I think we  14 have south -- south from -- from Lax an Hakw is --  15 Q   Is it fair to say you don't agree with that note?  16 A   Not the Gwin wijix.  Ansan gwiikw means where you get  17 the groundhog.  That's all.  But there's no mountain  18 called Gwin wijix.  I should know, because I live in  19 those areas.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  Fine.  I just submit that as the next exhibit,  21 my lord.  22 THE COURT:  The note?  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  24 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  833.  25  26 (EXHIBIT 833:  Data Sheet - Topographic Survey)  27  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, my lord, since I'm not having any luck  29 pronouncing these names I'm just going to show this.  30 After I show this data sheet to Mr. Rush I'm just  31 going to give it to the witness so he can review it,  32 and this is how --  33 Q   This is another data sheet recorded by Neil Sterritt  34 on July 7, 1979, and it refers to more features,  35 geographical features said to be within your  36 territory.  37 MR. RUSH:  No.  It says to be within the territory of  38 Galsiitipxaat.  39 THE COURT:  That's the witness, is it not?  40 MR. RUSH:  Well, the question is whether there is anything that  41 relates to this and the witness' territories that he  42 speaks to.  That's the issue, I think.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, that's not my question.  44 Q   I'm just saying that this topographical data sheet  45 refers to geographical features said to be within the  46 territory of someone with your chief's name in 1979.  47 And I'd ask Mrs. Howard to read out the Gitksan name 10139  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 at number seven and simply ask you do you agree with  2 that topographical data note?  3 A   I don't.  4 Q   What is your answer?  5 A   I'm not aware of that.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  Okay.  Mark that as the next exhibit, my lord.  7 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  8 THE COURT:  Exhibit 834.  9  10 (EXHIBIT 834:  Data Sheet - Topographic Survey)  11  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  13 Q   Handing to you another topographical data sheet, and  14 these can be distinguished by the page number in the  15 top right-hand corner.  This is page number 3-149, and  16 it refers to a mountain.  And I'll simply ask Mrs.  17 Howard to pronounce the mountain, the Gitksan name.  18 THE TRANSLATOR:  Daakl an Makl.  That's not the proper spelling.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  20 Q   Do you know now a mountain known as Daakl an Makl?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And it's referred to on your affidavit on page four,  23 paragraph 7, under mountains, number four?  24 Mr. Jackson doesn't have a copy of his affidavit,  25 but I think Mr. Rush will agree it's mentioned at that  26 point I just mentioned.  27 A   Pardon me?  Were you asking me a question on Daakl an  28 Makl?  29 Q   No, I haven't asked you about it yet.  I just want  30 to -- you say that's in Miluulak's territory, don't  31 you?  32 A  Miluulak, yes.  33 Q   And Mr. Sterritt in this note says it's in Wii minosik  34 territory?  35 A   That's not correct.  36 Q   That's not correct.  37 MR. RUSH:  No, Mr. Sterritt doesn't say that.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm sorry.  Beg your pardon.  39 Q   The note says that it's in the territory of Wii  40 minosik, and you say that's not correct?  41 A   That's not correct.  42 THE COURT:  Mr. Wright told him it was.  All right, 835.  43  44 (EXHIBIT 835:  Data Sheet - Topographic Survey)  45  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  47 Q   Do you know Henry Wright, or did you know Henry 10140  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  Wright?  A   Yes.  Q   Do you know his chief's name?  A   No, I don't.  Sorry.  Q   I'm handing up to the witness some notes from Mr.  Sterritt's notes apparently dated January or June 4,  1979, appearing to be notes from an interview with  James Morrison, David Green, Neil Sterritt, and the  page numbers are up in the upper right-hand corner.  Page 4-50 to page 4-60.  COURT:  Are these exhibits now?  MACKENZIE:  I don't think so, my lord.  COURT:  All right.  RUSH:  I should just say, my lord, that an informal  agreement was made between Mr. Goldie and myself that  where there were notes of Mr. Sterritt's that had not  been put to Mr. Sterritt which appeared to be in Mr.  Sterritt's handwriting and were otherwise identifiable  as his that these could be examined on, and --  COURT:  Yes.  RUSH:  And by both sides, and as far as my eye leads me to  believe these appear to be Mr. Sterritt's handwriting.  COURT:  Yes.  All right.  MACKENZIE:  First item I wanted to refer to, Mrs. Howard, is  on page 4-54.  That's the page with five and a circle  at the top, and there's a note about Atna, A-T-N-A,  Pass.  Does your lordship have that reference?  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  Q   Now, you say -- you've said, Mr. Jackson, that  Miluulak is on both sides of Atna Pass; correct?  A  Well, depending where you standing.  If you refer to  both sides north and south or from east to west.  Q   Yes, east to west.  A   Part of west, yes.  Q   Miluulak.  You said the Bear Lake trail goes right  through Atna Pass; correct?  A   Correct.  Q   And that's right in Miluulak's territory, isn't it?  A   Correct.  Q   Now, there's a note here that perhaps Mrs. Howard  could read that Gitksan name which appears beside Atna  Pass on that note on page five of the notes.  M'hm.  And this note says "Wii minosik on east side Atna  Pass".  Do you agree with that?  A   I agree.  Q   Okay.  And then the next one is page -- page 11 of 10141  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 these notes, page 4-60?  The reference is at number 50  2 to Drift, D-R-I-F-T, Lake.  And do you know a feature  3 known as Drift Lake?  Do you know a lake with that  4 English name?  5 A   Sorry, I don't.  6 Q   It appears in your affidavit at paragraph 14 under  7 lakes number one?  8 A   Dam Attii Dawdit.  Give me the Indian name and I'll  9 know it.  10 Q   Yes, I will.  In fact I'm going to give you your  11 affidavit.  I ask Mrs. Howard to tell you what that  12 number one under lakes is, please.  13 THE TRANSLATOR:  Dam Attii Dawdit.  14 A   Yes.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  16 Q   You know that lake?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And you say that's in Haiwas' territory?  19 A   Yes.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  And this note at number paragraph 50 has the  21 same Gitksan name, doesn't it, Mrs. Howard?  22 THE TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  24 Q   And it says that -- or the word Nii Kyap is noted  25 beside that.  If that were to mean Nii Kyap territory  26 you would disagree, I take it?  27 A   Yes, I disagree.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  Mark that set of notes as the next exhibit, my  29 lord.  3 0 THE COURT:  836.  31  32 (EXHIBIT 836:  Group of handwritten notes)  33  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  35 Q   Okay.  Referring to your affidavit then again, Mr.  36 Jackson.  37 MR. RUSH:  I think you should put it before him if you're going  38 to refer to it.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  I think I did.  40 MR. RUSH:  All right.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  42 Q   Now, when did you first see this affidavit?  The  43 affidavit's right before you.  And your signature is  44 on the -- is that your signature on page eight?  45 A  M'hm.  46 Q   Yes?  47 A   Yes. 10142  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  Q   When did you first see this affidavit?  A   Is this the affidavit for Sam Green?  Q   Yes.  It's for Sam Green and Gunanoot Lake and --  A   I saw it --  Q   And Driftwood?  A   I saw it about a week after served the injunction.  Q   And you're speaking about the Westar injunction?  A  M'hm.  Q   I may have misled you.  This affidavit that's in front  of you now is the one in which you described the  territories of Miluulak; Sam Green Creek and Gunanoot  Lake and Driftwood Range.  When did you first see that  affidavit?  COURT:  The injunction was served this fall, was it not?  MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  COURT:  So should we disabuse the witness from -- that item  from his mind?  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  A   I can't -- I can't give you the exact date, but I  think it was last month.  Q   Okay.  The —  COURT:  Well, I think we should straighten this out.  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  I'm trying to.  COURT:  Mr. Jackson, you signed this affidavit last May.  A  M'hm.  COURT:  You're obviously thinking of some other incident or  other documents.  Can you look at the signature and  you'll see there that -- that Gordon J. Sebastian,  lawyer, says that you swore this before him on the  25th of May.  And what Mr. Mackenzie is asking you  now, taking that date to be the date when you swore it  before Mr. Sebastian, when did you first see it before  the day you swore it, if at all?  Maybe you saw it for  the first time that very day.  A   No.  This is the first time I've seen this.  COURT:  Do you remember signing it?  A   Yes.  COURT:  And the question is did you see it before that time?  A   Not before I signed it.  COURT:  Pardon me?  A   Not before I signed it.  MACKENZIE:  Q   Did you see any drafts of the affidavit before you  signed it?  TRANSLATOR:  He said they showed him one and told him about  it. 10143  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  2 Q   And who showed it to you?  3 THE TRANSLATOR:  Gordon Sebastian he said.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q   When did Gordon Sebastian show you the draft?  6 A  When I signed it.  7 Q   I see.  So you didn't see any drafts before you signed  8 it?  9 A   No, I didn't.  10 Q   No.  And where did you sign it?  11 A   Hazelton.  12 Q   Did you sign -- where in Hazelton?  13 A   I think it was in the band council -- band -- tribal  14 council office, I think.  I don't remember exactly  15 where.  Gordon's office.  I forgotten.  Tribal council  16 I think.  17 Q   And was the affidavit translated to you?  18 A   No.  19 THE COURT:  No?  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  Was the answer no?  21 THE TRANSLATOR:  No.  22 A   No.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  24 Q   And what did Mr. Sebastian tell you within the  25 affidavit, if anything?  26 THE COURT:  I'm not sure that I should allow that question, Mr.  27 Mackenzie, without some waiver.  I think that's  28 privileged, or it might be.  29 MR. RUSH:  I'll certainly claim it as such if there is even a  30 possibility.  The question is what did he do.  31 THE COURT:  Well, that's no different.  32 MR. RUSH:  It is a little different, yes.  33 THE COURT:  I'm just worried he might blurt out he told me such  34 and such and such and such which I shouldn't hear.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  36 Q   Was anyone else present when Mr. Sebastian brought you  37 the affidavit?  3 8 A   I can't remember.  39 Q   Did anyone else describe to you the purpose of the  40 affidavit?  41 A   I can't remember that either.  42 Q   Did you read over the affidavit before you signed it?  43 A   I glanced over it, and it was something to do with the  44 territories so I put my John Henry on it.  45 Q   You didn't have a chance to -- to examine the legal  46 descriptions of the territories in great detail; is  47 that correct? 10144  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A Correct.  2 Q How did -- do you know who prepared the affidavit?  3 A I don't.  4 Q No.  Do you know where the names of the -- of your  5 informants in paragraph 4 came from?  6 THE TRANSLATOR:  I don't think he got the question.  7 A Oh, I see what you mean.  Yes, I was told by -- by my  8 grandfather Joseph Green, Moses Green, Alec Green,  9 John B. Green which is our claim.  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  11 Q My question is how did those names get on to paragraph  12 4 of the affidavit; if you know?  13 A It came from me.  Sorry about that.  14 MR. RUSH: What was the answer?  15 A It came from me.  I'm sorry about that.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  17 Q And to whom did you give that information?  18 A To -- to the person that prepared for the -- who  19 prepared the affidavit.  20 Q Who was that?  21 A Well, wasn't that Gordon Sebastian?  22 Q Did you give that information to him?  23 A I don't recall, but I give information to Herb George  24 I think it was.  Yeah, Herb George.  25 Q And when did you give that information to Herb George?  26 A Last year.  27 Q 1987?  28 A Yes.  2 9 Q Did you have a meeting with him?  30 A Yes.  31 Q And what was the subject of that meeting?  32 A Subject about the land.  33 Q And what did he say at that meeting to you in general?  34 A He didn't say anything.  I was the guy who said it.  35 Q What did he ask you?  What sort of information did he  36 require -- request from you at that meeting?  37 A He wants to know the areas, the name of the creeks,  38 the name of the -- the name of the lakes and  39 mountains, and how I got involved in it.  Where do I  40 get the knowledge to know all about this.  41 Q And did he tell you why he was requesting that  42 information?  43 A Yes.  To make an affidavit.  44 Q And did you have a meeting with Mr. Sterritt in May or  45 in March 1988 to discuss this subject?  46 A Yes.  47 Q And where was that meeting held? 10145  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  10  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  A  26  THE  COURT  27  A  28  THE  COURT  29  THE  TRANS  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  macke:  32  THE  COURT  33  MR.  RUSH:  34  THE  COURT  35  A  36  THE  COURT  37  MR.  macke:  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Tribal council.  And that was before -- before you signed the  affidavit, of course, it was because --  I think so.  Yeah.  And what was the subject of that meeting?  Same thing.  And what did Mr. Sterritt ask you?  He asked me if I remember where the locations are, the  name of the rivers, the mountains, the boundaries, and  such.  Did he explain to you the purpose for which he was  asking that information?  Yes.  And what was that?  Affidavit.  Now, these people who you mentioned as your  informants, do you know when they died?  For example,  do you know the date of William Jackson's death?  No, I don't.  Sorry.  He died before 1940, did he?  After 1940.  How old were you when he died?  I was already married then.  So about what?  25.  :  You were born in 1925, weren't you?  25 I think.  :  You'd be 15 years old.  EATOR:  No, he was about 25.  :  Well, I'm sorry.  I thought he was born in 1925.  JZIE:  25, yes.  :  So if he died in 1940 he would only be 15.  I thought he said the 1940's.  :  In the 1940's?  No.  He died in the fifties, I think.  :  All right.  Getting closer.  JZIE:  William Jackson died in the fifties when you were  about 25 years old.  You were in your twenties?  M'hm.  Were you living in --  Port Edward.  You were down in Port Edward then?  Yeah.  And he was living up here?  Yes.  When did he -- when did he teach about the territory? 10146  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  A  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  MR. RUSH:  22  THE COURT  23  MR. macke:  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  Q  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  In forties, thirties and forties.  Before you went to Port Edward?  Yes.  Okay.  And Alec Green died in the 1950's, also about  that time?  No.  Alec Green died in I think it was early  seventies.  And Moses Green died 1940?  Perhaps in the sixties.  Moses Green?  Yes.  Joseph Green died about 1939?  Yes.  Around '39, '40.  And Sam Green died about 1937?  No.  I think he died in the forties too.  Now, these -- your -- what was your association with  these gentleman; were you hunting with them?  Trapping and hunting.  You were trapping with them; correct?  M'hm.  He said trapping and hunting.  :  Yes.  JZIE:  You were trapping and hunting?  And hunting.  And you were trapping in the area where you now have  the registered trapline; correct?  M'hm.  Yes.  And that's the area that they told you -- did they  tell you that area was Miluulak Territory?  That was the main purpose of going with them to teach  me.  And they would only -- they taught you that Miluulak  trapped south of the Bear Lake Trail; correct?  Well, they don't point out the -- where the boundary  is.  We walked it.  Yes.  And teach me the name of the creeks and the mountains  as well.  And that's what you learned, the names of the creeks  and the mountains?  Yes.  M'hm.  And you learned that Miluulak trapped south of the  Bear Lake Trail?  No, we never trapped on the Bear Lake Trail.  We  trapped inside the boundaries, our boundaries. 10147  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  THE COURT  7  A  8  MR. macke:  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  MR. RUSH:  21  22  MR. macke:  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  27  A  28  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  That was south of the Bear Lake Trail?  East and west of Wii Tax.  You trapped around Gunanoot Lake?  Yes.  And also in Nilkitkwa?  :  I'm sorry.  Lip Skanisit.  Kotsine.  JZIE:  That's Kotsine Mountain.  So you didn't trap in the western part of the  territory around Atna Pass, did you?  Yes.  I've got a cabin there.  I mean with Joseph Green you didn't trap there?  I didn't trap there?  I'm just asking you.  Sure I trapped there.  Well, I'm sorry.  Yes, I trapped there.  When you said you trapped around Wii Tax --  Well, there's --  He said east, west and south of Wii Tax and you said  around Wii Tax.  JZIE:  Did you say west and south of Wii Tax?  South and east and west.  But you didn't go past Lip Skanisit, did you, east of  Lip Skanisit?  No, we never.  We never generally passed there,  because that's near our border, borderline.  But your mother and father were past there, weren't  they?  No, they didn't.  That's where you were born?  That's right.  You were born east of Lip Skanisit?  No, I didn't say that.  I'm sorry.  You said you were born at the Driftwood  Range?  That's right.  That's east of Lip Skanisit?  No.  Say it again, please?  I mean Kotsine Mountain.  That's east, yes.  Well, you didn't -- did you trap east of Kotsine  Mountain?  Little bit of east, yes.  That's on the boundary between Haiwas and --  Boundaries on the east side of Driftwood where the 10148  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 creek is that's -- or the river.  2 Q   But you didn't trap outside the boundaries of your  3 registered trapline, did you?  4 A   Not on the east side of Xsi an Togasxw, no.  5 Q   That name you just gave was the Driftwood River;  6 right?  7 A   That's Xsi an Togasxw.  8 Q   Yes.  Well, I'm just asking you didn't trap outside  9 the boundaries of your area.  You have your registered  10 trapline now, do you?  11 A  Which boundary are you referring to?  12 Q   The registered trapline boundary.  13 A   North, south, east?  14 Q   Yes.  All the boundaries.  15 A  Well, I can't -- I can't trap on north side of our  16 boundary, because it's our law.  17 Q   Yes.  I'm just saying you didn't trap outside the  18 boundaries of the registered trapline, did you?  19 A   No, I didn't.  2 0 Q   No.  And — yes.  21 THE COURT:  I notice it's four o'clock, Mr. Mackenzie.  What  22 have counsel planned to do about timing on this?  Do  23 we carry on or what?  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  I haven't got very much more, my lord.  I'd be  25 willing to start early tomorrow morning if that would  26 assist Mr. Rush in scheduling.  27 MR. RUSH:  I would like some indication of how long my friend is  28 going to be.  29 THE COURT:  With this witness.  How long do you think you would  30 be?  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  Less than half an hour.  32 THE COURT:  Do you want to stay and finish?  33 MR. RUSH:  We have a witness starting at seven.  I would like my  34 friend to finish, and then there is Ms. Koenigsberg,  35 and I'll have re-direct and I'll be more than half an  36 hour.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  I would like to finish tomorrow morning if your  38 lordship will permit.  I've been going since 8:30 this  39 morning steadily.  40 THE COURT:  Are you on deck this evening, Mr. Mackenzie?  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, I'm not, my lord.  42 THE COURT:  Well, I wonder if the course of wisdom wouldn't be  43 just to carry on to 4:30 and quit at that time  44 regardless of where we are.  45 MR. RUSH:  That's fine by me.  46 THE COURT:  Yes.  Let's do that so that we'll — if you are all  47 right, madam reporter.  Mrs. Howard, you all right? 10149  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Madam registrar?  Let's stay until 4:30.  If you can  2 finish fine, if you can't we can reschedule it for  3 early tomorrow morning.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  5 Q   Mr. Jackson, since you didn't have a chance to read  6 over the boundary description in detail you can't say  7 whether it's true in every respect, can you?  8 A   I don't know what you mean, sir.  9 Q   Well, you said that you couldn't read over the legal  10 description of the boundaries in detail so I'm asking  11 you since that's the case you can't say that the  12 boundary description is correct in every detail?  13 A   I know where my boundaries are.  14 Q   Yes, I know you do.  15 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie, I'm not sure with respect that's a  16 useful question, the fact that he didn't read it over.  17 He glanced at it is something that stands on its own  18 and arguments can be made on that, but whether or not  19 he can now say or can't say that it's true or not is  20 speculation of an unnecessary kind, because if it's  21 important the witness can be given the document and  22 told to read it, and he then can say whether it's true  23 or not.  And if it's necessary to keep your  24 examination open it seems to me that's the way it  25 ought to be done rather than to engage in the kind of  26 speculation that the question now calls for.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  28 Q   You didn't suggest any amendments to this affidavit  29 when it was brought to you, did you?  30 A   No.  31 Q   The answer is?  32 THE COURT:  No.  33 A   No.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  No further questions, my lord.  35 THE COURT:  Ms. Koenigsberg.  36  37 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KOENIGSBERG:  38 Q   I have just a couple of questions of you, Mr. Jackson.  39 You took your name at a feast?  4 0 A   Yes, ma'am.  41 Q   Was a feast book kept of that feast?  42 A   Just for the expenses.  43 Q   All right.  Do you have a copy of that?  4 4 A   Not on me.  45 Q   You don't?  4 6 A   Not on me.  47 Q   Do you have it at home? 10150  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 A We have at home, yes.  2 Q You have it at home.  Do you recall did you pay money  3 for taking the name?  4 A Yes.  5 Q Do you recall how much you paid?  6 A Two thousand.  7 Q Two thousand.  And would that have been in cash?  8 A Yes.  9 Q And did you pay anything more in the way of goods  10 which were valued at the feast?  11 A Yes.  12 Q Do you recall how much the value was declared to be at  13 the feast?  14 A I can't say right offhand.  I think it was around --  15 the total amount was around 2,500 I think it was.  16 Q Okay.  17 THE COURT:  Including the cash or additional to the cash?  18 A Including the cash.  19 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  2 0 Q And is that the total amount of monies and goods which  21 were contributed for you taking the name at that  22 feast?  23 A Only for myself.  24 Q Okay.  And would any other members of your family have  25 contributed for you to take that name?  26 A Yes.  27 Q And is there a declared amount of monies that you  28 recall other members of your family might have paid?  2 9 A Quite a bit.  Quite a sum amount.  30 Q You don't recall the precise amount?  31 A Well, with the total -- I got the total of cash at  32 home.  I got it in the book.  I can't just say  33 offhand.  34 Q Would you look for that book and would you provide it  35 to your -- Mr. Rush?  36 A M'hm.  37 Q Who can provide it to us.  Thank you.  38 You took this name at the same feast that Alice  39 Jeffery took the name Miluulak; is that correct?  4 0 A No.  41 Q No.  It was at a different feast?  42 A M'hm.  43 Q You attended the feast where Alice Jeffery took the  44 name Miluulak?  45 A Yes.  46 Q Do you recall how much Alice Jeffery paid for the name  47 Miluulak at that feast? 10151  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1 A   I think $2,000.  2 Q   Okay.  And do you recall if there was an announced  3 amount in goods?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And that would have been in addition to the $2,000?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Can you say approximately or exactly how much that  8 amount was in total?  9 A   No, I can't.  I'm sorry, I can't.  10 Q   Would you have kept a record, or do you have in your  11 possession a record of that?  12 A   She does.  13 Q   Of the feast.  I'm sorry.  Alice Jeffery does?  14 A   Yes.  15 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I wonder if that book could be produced as  16 well.  17 MR. RUSH:  It's in Vancouver.  18 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I'm not in a big hurry.  19 THE COURT:  Not today.  20 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  If it could be produced I think it would be  21 helpful, and if it simply confirms the evidence or  22 gives us an exact number I think it can be marked for  23 the purposes that it's referred to.  24 THE COURT:  I'm sure Mr. Rush will do everything he can to  25 accommodate that reasonable request.  2 6 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  27 Q   You've told us in terms of your employment history  28 that you worked in the logging industry for a number  29 of years and in the fishing industry for a very long  30 period of time, and you're still working in the  31 fishing industry?  32 A   That's right.  33 Q   You told us about your trapping and hunting and you  34 hold a name.  Is there any other employment that you  35 have held?  36 A   No, that's all there is.  37 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  Those are all my questions.  Thank you.  38 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Rush.  39 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  40  41 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. RUSH:  42 Q   Mr. Jackson, I want to ask you about feasts.  Were  43 you -- were you and the members of the Miluulak house  44 hosts to a feast this last fall, 1988?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   What was that feast for?  47 A   Feast was for stone raising. 10152  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  Q  10  11  12  A  13  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  Q  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  THE COURT  And it's a stone raising feast for whom?  For Xsimgitgiigeenix, which is the name I took.  Now, that is called a stone raising feast, is it?  Yes.  And do you remember what month that was?  That was in October 26th, I think.  Of 1988?  '88.  Okay.  Was money paid by you or other members of the  house at this stone raising feast for the stone  raising?  The cash I put in was $1,500 plus the goods, which  wasn't mentioned at all, and plus the members of the  family they put in some amount.  Do you remember how much members of the family put in?  I think the total amount was $8,000 cash, I think.  Where was this feast held?  Gitanmaax Hall.  And was the late Xsimgitgiigeenix, was that Johnny  Moore?  Yes.  Now, before this feast, the stone raising feast, was  held there was a funeral feast for the late  Xsimgitgiigeenix?  Yes.  I host that.  You hosted that as well?  M'hm.  And is that the feast you were talking about when you  were answering Ms. Koenigsberg's questions?  Yes.  And do you remember the month and year that the  funeral feast for the late Xsimgitgiigeenix was held?  I think was in -- was in '86 or '87.  I think '87.  I  think -- I can't -- I'm not sure about it.  All right.  Now, I'm going to ask you some other  questions relating to questions that had previously  been asked by Mr. Mackenzie, and one of the first  questions he asked you was whether there were other  territories of Miluulak and you said that there were.  That there was a territory at the head rivers I took  it or I wrote down of the Skeena, and I want to ask  you is that the Duti River?  That's correct.  And to your recollection who, if anyone, of Miluulak's  house used that area in the past?  Johnny Moore.  :  Charlie Moore? 10153  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1  MR. RUSH:  2  THE COURT  3  MR. RUSH:  4  Q  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  Q  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  A  No.  Johnny Moore.  :  Johnny Moore.  Is that the same Johnny Moore for whom the funeral  feast was held in 1986 or '87?  Correct.  Yes.  And when Mr. Johnny Moore passed on, Mr.  Jackson, do you remember how old he was?  Sorry, I don't.  Okay.  You said that you were born in Djil Djila.  Do  I have the pronunciation right, Mr. Jackson?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, did you yourself spend time on this  territory or this area after your birth, that you  recall?  Yes.  Yes.  And can you tell his lordship what's the -- at what  age do you have your earliest recollection of being in  that area?  I was -- I think I was starting from nine.  Oh, yeah.  I can't tell you just -- I think I was starting at  nine when I was started going out with David Gunanoot,  which is Nii Kyap, and Moses Green, Alec Green.  Those  are my uncles.  And I went on until I was old enough  to be on my own.  Okay.  And what were you doing out there with the  people that you've mentioned?  We have trapped, we hunt providing food for our  families.  Now, is this something that you did with them every  year or every other year, or how regularly did you do  that with these people?  Every year.  And what -- what did you trap for?  We trapped martens, squirrels, weasels, minks, beaver,  otter, not too much of otter, wolverine and fishers.  And you said you hunted.  When you hunted there what  did you hunt for?  We hunt moose, we hunt bear, we hunt goats,  groundhogs, grizzlys -- well, bear.  And what's the name in Gitksan, if there is one, for  groundhog?  Gwiikw.  Gwiikw.  Gwiikw?  Close enough.  What's it look like?  The -- they're similar to what the beaver looks like, 10154  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR  MR  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  Proceedings  if you've ever seen a beaver.  Q   I've seen a beaver, but can you describe what the  Gwiikw looks like?  A  Well, it's almost similar.  Identical.  Looks -- they  live underground.  MACKENZIE:  I'm going to object to any more questions about  Gwiikws, my lord.  I always fear Gwiikws bearing gifts  in Gitksan.  RUSH:  Well, I was going to show him a picture of a Gwiikw.  MACKENZIE:  Well, I don't know what the relevance of this  is, my lord, unless -- I won't carry on.  I won't  carry the pun any further, my lord, but I'm going to  object to all these questions about Gwiikws and  martens and bears.  I can see he was doing the same  thing as Mr. Grant was trying to do, trying to get in  expert evidence in through this evidence.  It's  unrelated to the evidence in chief, in my submission.  If I am in -- I would submit in this area at least  the witness is an expert.  I don't think I'm doing  that, my lord.  I'm just asking him if he can identify  a picture of a Gwiikw.  Ms . Koenigsberg?  KOENIGSBERG:  Well, my lord, looking at the hour, and my old  bones, I was just wondering if we aren't going a  little far afield in cross-examination.  I can see  that my friend might elaborate somewhat slightly on,  you know, when you went hunting and trapping did you  catch anything, or something like that, but I don't  know that it has anything to do with any of the  cross-examination to have a detailed inventory of what  was caught.  MR. RUSH:  Well —  THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  Following the argument  during Mr. Grant's re-examination, in my submission  there was no denial of Mr. -- there was no attempt to  deny Mr. Jackson's comments that he hunted in the  territory.  It seems to me that there's some relation  between the -- the arguments and the reasoning during  Mr. Grant's re-examination and this particular  re-examination on this aspect.  THE COURT:  Is it any more complicated than this, that in  cross-examination the matter not having been raised in  chief so there is no question of splitting the case  the defendant -- the defendants ask where did you hunt  and the plaintiff in re-examination then says for what  did you hunt.  Is that too simplistic an analogy or  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MS 10155  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  R. Jackson (for the Plfs.)  Proceedings  Ruling  synthesis of what's happening here?  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  In my submission no, it's not, my lord.  And I  don't object to that kind of a general sort of  question, but I ask about the relevance in  re-examination when the topic is not on the table, so  to speak, to get an inventory for whatever the  purposes are.  There is no challenge.  There is no --  this is -- this is an examination now in chief in  re-examination, and if it were for clarification or to  rehabilitate or anything like that then, of course, I  think we would have no ground to stand on.  We are now  into an area that my friend didn't examine on,  because, of course, we are dealing with another  matter, but it was not cross-examined on.  My lord, I would like to comment on this.  I think  that the risks my learned friend takes in a wide range  examination --  Cross-examination.  Cross-examination on an affidavit like this is that  they risk my going into these very areas that they  touch on and that they open up.  And if they ask what  did you hunt or did you hunt or where did you hunt,  what did you do, then I'm entitled to go into it as  fully as I can to explain this man's relationship to  the land and to what he did as a young person.  He was  asked who he was with, and in my submission an  argument can be made A, about challenging was he there  and what did he do, and with respect as well to his  knowledge of the territory.  And I say that the risk  they take is it opens the door to allow me to go into  these areas on re-direct, because they can ask a  simple question which has a multitude of complex  answers below the surface.  And I say that if your  lordship needs the explanation you're entitled to it,  and I say --  I wouldn't put it on that ground, Mr. Rush.  I'm not  sure I need the explanation at all.  It may be that I  will, but I certainly wouldn't want to take any  responsibility for urging or indicating any need for  the kind of detail that you may be about to embark  upon, but I think I have to agree with Mr. Rush that  when the subject is opened up I think it is opened up.  It's -- it's not a matter that -- that permits me to  accede to Ms. Koenigsberg's beguiling submission that  there can be a little bit of re-examination.  I think  if the subject is opened up it is opened up.  And I  think that when the witness is asked in  THE COURT: 10156  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Ruling  Proceedings  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  cross-examination about hunting I think that -- I  think the area is, or the subject is at large.  I  regret somewhat reaching that conclusion because of  the time constraints we're all under, but I don't  think that I can bend the rules to meet the exigencies  of the moment.  And I think the examination is one  that Mr. Rush is entitled to undertake.  Do you want to proceed or do you want to take the  evening to -- to phrase your next question?  Well, it might be an appropriate juncture for us to  take the --  How long will you be in re-examination?  I shouldn't think more than half an hour, but I do  think it would be adviseable if we came tomorrow --  returned tomorrow at nine o'clock.  If we finish this witness by ten o'clock tomorrow  are we on schedule?  Yes.  We'll have Mr. Joseph who will start at ten.  And can we do this other witness this evening?  Yes.  Yes.  All right.  Well, then I think -- you think  nine o'clock, Mr. Rush?  Yes.  All right.  Nine o'clock.  And we'll adjourn then  until, what is it, seven o'clock?  Yes.  Seven o'clock.  Thank you.  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT:  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO DINNER RECESS)  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  Mr. Rush.  My lord, I just introduce Mrs. Mabel Critch.  Yes.  Who will be attesting to the next affidavit.  And she  is here to be cross-examined on that.  And if she is  sworn there is a correction in the affidavit that I'm  going to ask her about.  Yes.  All right.  THE REGISTRAR:  Could you please take the Bible in your hand.  MABEL CRITCH, a witness called on  behalf of the Plaintiffs, having  first been duly sworn testified as  follows:  THE REGISTRAR:  Please tell the court your full name. 10157  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Mabel Critch.  THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  MR. RUSH:  Yes.  I wonder if there is an extra copy of the  affidavit that I could show Mrs. Critch, or we can use  the court copy.  MR. O'BYRNE:  My lord, we have an extra copy.  MR. RUSH:  It's Exhibit 664.  It's quite all right.  You may sit  down, Mrs. Critch.  It's all right.  Thanks very much.  Now, I have a few questions with regard to the  territory which is described on page eight, my lord,  at paragraph large C.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. RUSH:  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  A  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  If you  there d  territo  Yes.  And it  at para  indicat  and you  House o  Yes.  Now, is  regard  Yes.  I  used by  Right.  And the  :  Right  Samooh  And Sat  And Sa  Satsan  :  Is th  and tho  I'll j  :  All r  turn to page eight, Mrs. Critch, you'll see  escribed the Guzeyh Keeyex -- Guzeyh Keeyex  ry?  s described as Gilmore Lake.  Now, if you look  graph 23, which is on page nine, paragraph 23  es that the Guzeyh Keeyex territory is owned,  've heard it described as being owned, by the  f Goohlaht?  there any correction that you wish to make in  to that?  t's the area -- trapping area is trapped or  Samooh and Satsan.  ir relatives.  I didn't get that name.  san.  tsan.  I believe that's spelled S-A-M-O-O-H.  is S-A-T-S-A-N.  e witness saying that Goohlaht should be struck  se names substituted?  ust ask the witness.  ight.  Now, Mrs. Critch, is Satsan a chief in the House of  Samooh?  Yes, he is.  All right.  And should this read that you've heard  Guzeyh Keeyex territory described in the Wet'suwet'en  feast as being owned by the House of Samooh?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, I just -- I want to ask you that this -- 1015?  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  Q  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  MR.  RUSH:  20  21  THE  COURT  22  23  MR.  RUSH:  24  THE  COURT  25  26  27  28  29  MR.  RUSH:  30  31  32  Q  33  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  40  Q  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  when you swore this affidavit it was on February the  9th of 1988.  And last year in February the 9th, 1988  was there a person holding the name of Samooh?  No, there wasn't.  And is there somebody today that holds that name?  Yes, there is.  Samooh is -- one of the Naziels have  that name.  Okay.  And is -- is the chief -- is Chief Samooh in  the same clan as Goohlaht?  Yes, he is.  Okay.  And at the time of -- at the time there was no  holder of the name Samooh was Goohlaht looking after  that territory?  Yes , she was.  All right.  And can you tell the court just what -- do  you remember the month it was that there was a  successor to the name of Samooh?  In October of this fall, 1988.  All right.  Thank you.  Those are the questions I  wish to --  :  So the substitution should be to replace Goohlaht  with Samooh, should it?  Yes.  :  All right.  Well, I'm not sure how one amends an  affidavit except having it resworn, and I don't  imagine that's convenient so it seems to me I should  have the authority to make that amendment, and it is  so ordered.  Just one other -- I guess I should make one other  point -- perhaps one other point in clarification as  this is drawn to my attention.  Mrs. Critch, would you look at page eight, paragraph  18, please.  Now, it indicates in paragraph 18 that  Miriam David, the former Samooh, in the last paragraph  told you this territory belonged to Goohlaht.  Now,  what is it that you were told by Miriam David, was it  Goohlaht or Samooh?  They're both in the same house.  They're Goohlaht and  Samooh and Satsan, they're all from the same house.  Okay.  Which is -- all right.  And can you recall now  what it is that she said to you as to who the  territory belongs to?  It belongs to Samooh and Satsan and also Goohlaht.  So it's correct to say the three names?  Yeah, yes.  Three.  But in the order that you've given; Samooh, Satsan and  Goohlaht? 10159  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A   Yeah.  2 MR. RUSH:  All right.  Thank you.  3 THE COURT:  And you're seeking to amend that paragraph as well,  4 Mr. Rush?  5 MR. RUSH:  Yes, my lord.  6 THE COURT:  All right.  That amendment will go as well.  As it  7 reads now is that this territory belongs to Samooh,  8 Satsan and Goohlaht.  All right.  Thank you.  Who's  9 going to cross-examine first?  10 MR. MACAULAY:  I will, my lord.  11 THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay.  12  13 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACAULAY:  14 Q   Mrs. Critch, were you at the feast in October when the  15 new Samooh took the name?  16 A   Yes, I was.  17 Q   And before that feast there was no surviving member of  18 the House of Samooh; is that right?  19 A   No surviving -- yes, there was.  2 0 Q   You know Lucy Namox?  21 A   Yes, I do.  22 Q   And have you read an affidavit that she swore  23 concerning, amongst other things, the last living  24 member of the House of Samooh?  25 My lord, the affidavit I'm referring to is an  26 affidavit, the cover affidavit, if you call it that,  27 for answers to interrogatories.  2 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  2 9 MR. MACAULAY:  30 Q   And, Mrs. Critch, do you have -- have you been  31 involved in the process of answering interrogatories  32 or questions for this lawsuit?  33 A   This right now is my first time I've been in court  34 here.  35 Q   Well, I'm going to show you a short affidavit and  36 attached to it -- I can tell you attached to this  37 affidavit was a long list of answers that Lucy Namox  38 made to questions put to her by lawyers for the  39 province, but this is a short affidavit.  And in the  40 affidavit Lucy Namox says in paragraph 2 Samooh died  41 in November 1985.  He was the last living member of  42 the House of Samooh.  I am authorized pursuant to  43 Wet'suwet'en laws to be the caretaker of the name and  44 Territory of Samooh.  I am authorized to represent the  45 House of Samooh in this action until such time as a  46 successor is chosen.  I will be answering these  47 questions on behalf of the Samooh. 10160  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A   Yes, I understand that, because the Samooh was Miriam  2 David's brother.  3 Q   Yes.  And he died in November 1985?  4 MR. RUSH:  Just let her answer.  5 MR. MACAULAY:  It's cross-examination.  6 A   Yes.  I don't remember what year he died, but he's the  7 family.  Samooh was Miriam David, David Dennis, Paddy  8 Isaac, and they had the original Samooh, but when they  9 died there is other relatives that were in line for  10 that name Samooh.  11 Q   But those other relatives were not members of the  12 House of Samooh, were they?  13 A   Yes, they are.  14 Q   They were?  15 A   Yes.  M'hm.  16 Q   So it was not accurate to say that Samooh, the man who  17 died in 1985, was the last living member of the house?  18 A   The last member of the family one certain family.  19 There was three of them.  Miriam David had Samooh, and  20 her two brothers Paddy Isaac and David Dennis they're  21 the last of their family had the name Samooh, but  22 others are also in line for Samooh too.  23 Q   So there were other members of the Samooh house?  24 A   Yes.  There's a big family.  25 Q   It's -- now, the person who took the name in October  26 of this year who was that?  What was his name?  27 A   There was two of them.  Samooh is one of the Naziels.  28 A young person.  I don't actually remember his name,  29 but it's one of Lucy Namox's grandsons.  30 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  There was a name there that I didn't  31 get.  I don't know if madam reporter got it.  32 MR. MACAULAY:  One of the Naziels.  33 THE COURT:  Naziels.  34 MR. MACAULAY:  It's a well-known name in Wet'suwet'en.  35 A   Yes.  That's Lucy Namox's grandson.  3 6 THE COURT:  N-A?  37 MR. MACAULAY:  Z-I-E-L, I believe.  3 8 THE COURT:  Thank you.  3 9 MR. MACAULAY:  40 Q   And Lucy Namox is Goohlaht; is that right?  41 A   Yes, she is.  42 Q   And her grandson in the normal course of events would  43 be a member of the House of Goohlaht?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And that is the person who has taken the name of  4 6 Samooh?  47          A   Yes. 10161  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q And you don't recall his first name?  2 A No, I don't.  3 Q Do you remember his father's name or his mother's  4 name?  5 A His mother's name is, I believe, Cora Naziel.  6 Q Cora.  Is Cora Naziel a member of the House of  7 Goohlaht?  8 A Yes, it is.  9 Q And the chiefly names --  10 THE COURT:  It's very warm in here, Mr. Macaulay.  I wonder if  11 we should open some doors.  12 MR. MACAULAY:  I'm not opposed to that.  I'm warmly dressed.  13 MR. RUSH: As long as they're not outside doors.  14 THE COURT:  Well, internal doors I think.  Sorry, Mr. Macaulay.  15 MR. MACAULAY:  16 Q And what did the new Samooh contribute at the feast?  17 A He contributed money, food, berries and meat.  18 Q To what value?  What total value?  19 A Well, it's quite a bit.  I never kept track of that,  20 but it's quite a bit, because the hall was full of  21 people and everybody had great big piles of food and  22 everything.  23 Q Were you involved in arranging the feast?  24 A No.  25 Q Oh, you don't know if anybody kept a feast book?  26 A I believe so, but I don't know who.  One of Lucy  27 Namox's daughters, I think.  28 Q Oh, is that who organized the feast, one of Lucy  2 9 Namox's daughters?  30 A One of them.  31 Q And does that house, Samooh, have other chiefly names?  32 Most houses have several names.  33 A Yes.  Satsan and Goohlaht.  34 Q Satsan is another name in the house?  35 A Yes.  36 Q And Satsan is -- is there a Satsan now?  Has somebody  37 taken that name?  38 A Yes.  Satsan, it's one of Lucy Naziel's -- Lucy  39 Namox's children.  Satsan.  40 Q Was that at the same feast?  41 A Yes.  42 Q And were there any other names in the House of Samooh  43 that were taken at that feast?  44 A The two main ones were the Satsan and Samooh.  45 Q Yes.  Those are the main ones, but were there any  46 others that were taken or claimed or given at the  47 feast? 10162  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A   I don't remember that, but I knew, yes, there was two  2 main ones are the ones.  3 Q   And do you know that there is a territory at the  4 southern end of the Wet'suwet'en area that early in  5 this lawsuit had the name Samooh?  That is that was  6 said to be Samooh's territory?  7 A  M'hm.  8 Q   You knew that?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And this new chief, head chief of Samooh, will now  11 have authority over that territory?  12 A   Yes.  13 THE COURT:  Where do you find it, Mr. Macaulay?  Oh, I found it.  14 I'm sorry.  15 MR. MACAULAY:  Down towards the bottom, my lord.  16 THE COURT:  Yes.  Well, it's 16B on your map.  No, I'm sorry.  17 Just beside 16B.  18 MR. MACAULAY:  That had changed in map eight of the native  19 series to Goohlaht.  20 THE COURT:  I see.  Just according to this map you gave me, I  21 don't think it's an exhibit, it's just east of  22 Houston.  23 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes, that's right, my lord.  There is both Samooh  24 and Samooh Satsan, which is, of course, what we're  25 looking at now.  My lord, the series of maps I handed  26 up, which are not exhibits, that is a shrunken -- a  27 shrinken -- shrunken down -- shrunken version of  28 Exhibit 5.  2 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  30 MR. MACAULAY:  Which is the plaintiffs — the map we started  31 this lawsuit -- this action off with.  32 Q   Now, Mrs. Critch, what house do you belong to?  33 A   Hagwilneghl.  34 THE COURT:  I'm sorry?  35 MR. MACAULAY:  Hagwilneghl.  3 6 THE COURT:  Thank you.  37 MR. MACAULAY:  38 Q   And that is the wolf clan?  39 A   No.  40 Q   What clan is that?  41 A   That's the frog clan.  42 Q   Frog clan.  I'm sorry.  What clan is Samooh?  43 A   That's the frog clan too.  That's a different --  44 different clan, but it's -- they're both --  45 Hagwilneghl and Samooh are both frog clans.  46 Q   Well, Lucy Namox is what you'd call a frog raven, is  47 that the way you would distinguish them if you use 10163  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  English words?  A   Yes.  Q   They're two different clans, aren't they, we are  talking about now?  A   Hagwilneghl and Samooh are two different clans.  Q   Yes.  Your clan is different from the clan to which  Samooh belongs?  A It's different.  Q   Okay.  And now -- oh, where were you born?  What part  of --  A   In Topley.  Q   And at that time did your father have a ranch?  A   Yes.  There's -- we have ten acre just west of Topley.  Q   Was your father Matthew Sam?  A   Yes, he was .  Q   He was often known as Topley Matthew Sam, wasn't he?  A   Yes.  Or Woos or Gyologyet.  Q   Those were his chief's names?  A   Yes.  Q   And he was enfranchised?  A   Yes.  Q   Or he became enfranchised?  A   Yes.  Q   And you were enfranchised at the same time?  A   Yes.  Q   And he owned a 160 acre farm?  A  At the time he was enfranchised, yes, but right now  it's only about ten acres on the same lot.  Q   Well, when he died did he still have 160 acres?  A   No.  No.  Q   Had he sold some of it?  A   No.  He just let some go.  Q   You mean he let some of it  A   Yes.  Q   Oh, but he had taken a preemption, as they call it?  He had a 160 acre preemption, or do you know that?  A  Well, I knew he had 160 acres in that area where I'm  still living.  Q   Yes.  And who owns the remaining ten acres?  Who owns  that?  A   That's where I'm living now.  Q   Yes, but who has the title?  A  My sister does.  Q   Is that your sister -- is that Patricia Mary?  A  Mary Patricia Simpson.  Q   Sorry.  Mary Patricia.  And she has the title to that  land?  He let some of it go.  go for taxes? 10164  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  Q  44  THE COURT  45  A  46  MR. MACAU  47  Yes.  Is she the eldest daughter?  Yes.  Eldest living daughter.  Eldest living.  Yes.  Now, what was that -- when you  were small what was that land used for?  What did your  father use it for?  My father had cattle, and he had chickens and farming.  He used it for farming.  And then they trapped around  that area.  The trapline -- trapping ground around  that area belonged to my mother, and my mother's  people before her all resided around that area, and my  mother just stayed there.  And they were in the House of Hagwilneghl?  Yes.  But your father was in a different house, of course.  He was a Ma'uus?  Yes.  Now, both your father and mother lived there until  they died, didn't they?  Yes.  And you have continued living there?  Yes, I have.  And you have a brother Phillip?  I did have.  Oh, is he dead now?  Yes.  Did -- when you were young did you go to school?  Yes, I did.  At Topley?  Yes.  And your sister did too as well?  Yes.  And how many years did you continue at school there at  Topley?  About four or five years.  And I went to school at  Lajack School for a couple of years.  Actually I went  to school for about six years, I think, altogether.  The Lajack School was a residential school?  Yes.  And after you left school what was your occupation?  I trapped with my parents both around Topley at Elk'et  Ben Territory, also Morice Lake.  Now --  :  I didn't get those names.  Elk'et Ben is Sunset Lake.  EAY:  That's the first.  If your lordship looks at the  affidavit on page two at the top, Mrs. Critch's 10165  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  A  Q  A  A  affidavit, you'll see under -- opposite the letter A  the Wet'suwet'en name and then in brackets Sunset  Lake.  That's what you're referring to?  Yes.  And you mentioned another property that you were  trapping on as well.  What was that?  My father's trapline is that Morice Lake Morice River  area.  Yeah.  That trapline on the Morice Lake Morice River  area, is that the second property that's dealt with in  your affidavit?  I believe it is.  MR. MACAULAY:  At page four three-quarters of the way down  there's the beginning of a second topic, my lord, and  it's referred to.  The English name in brackets is  McBride Lake.  Is that the second property that you trapped on?  Yes.  And how many years did you trap on the first one, the  Sunset Lake property?  All my life.  Every year?  Yes.  You still do?  Not this winter I haven't.  But last winter?  Yes.  And your father, did he trap there until shortly  before he died?  Yes.  And did your mother trap as well?  Yes.  All her ancestors all trapped there for hundreds  of years back.  And did any other members of your family trap there?  My son traps there.  He traps there now?  Kenny Sam.  His name?  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  THE COURT  A  THE COURT  MR. MACAULAY  Q  I'm sorry.  Kenny Sam.  Thank you.  And how many years did you trap on this second  territory which is described as McBride Lake?  A  Well, most of my life.  All my life.  We go out to  that area in the fall.  There's a big -- it's a big  area.  We trap in different areas. 10166  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   Okay.  Now, you know Mr. John Fontaine?  2 A   John Fontaine, yes, I do.  3 Q   And Mr. James Scott?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   They're both trappers?  6 A  M'hm.  7 Q   And they have traplines near your registered trapline?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And you yourself have a registered trapline?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   And that -- before you it was your mother, Rose Sam?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   She had the registration?  14 A  M'hm.  15 Q   And before she had the registration who was it?  16 A   Her mother.  17 Q   Her mother?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Well, there was no registration in her mother's time,  20 was there?  21 A  Well, there's actually no registration right now for  22 me, because there's Fontaine and Scott are both on my  23 trapping ground that belong to my ancestors from way  24 back.  25 Q   Are you saying that you have no registered trapline at  26 all?  27 A   Yes, I have in that office.  In the game warden's  28 office --  29 Q   Yes.  30 A   — I have.  31 Q   But it only covers part of your territory is what  32 you're saying?  33 A   Yes.  Yes.  34 Q   And Fontaine's and Scott's traplines cover other  35 parts?  36 A  And Marcelle.  37 Q   And how about George Miller, is he the man who  38 replaced Rondeau?  39 A   I've never met him.  4 0 THE COURT:  I didn't get that name.  41 MR. MACAULAY:  George Miller.  42 THE COURT:  The one before that.  4 3 MR. MACAULAY:  Rondeau.  She mentioned Mr. Rondeau.  44 THE COURT:  R-O-N-D-O?  4 5 MR. MACAULAY:  R-O-N-D-E-A-U.  46 Q   What was his first name, Mr. Rondeau?  47 A  Marcelle. 10167  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   Marcelle Rondeau.  Now, early in this lawsuit, or  2 early in this trial which started at Smithers, it  3 seems a long time ago, your lawyers put in as an  4 exhibit a map, a big map, and on that map this Sunset  5 Lake property had listed a name, a house name?  6 A   Elk'et Ben.  7 Q   And it was Wah tah Kwets?  8 A   Elk'et Ben is the name of the Sunset Lake in  9 Wet'suwet'en.  10 Q   But it's right -- but the name --  11 THE COURT:  Are you talking about Exhibit 5, Mr. Macaulay?  12 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes, my lord.  13 MR. RUSH:  That proposition is not correct, my lord.  14 MR. MACAULAY:  I beg your pardon.  15 MR. RUSH:  That proposition that you just said is not right.  16 THE COURT:  Well, I'm — the map I'm showing shows Wah tah Kwets  17 for the area around Topley.  18 MR. MACAULAY:  Around Topley Wah tah Kwets it says, and  19 underneath it says K'hay Lah in smaller letters.  20 MR. RUSH:  No, it says Hagwilneghl.  21 MR. MACAULAY:  We must be reading different versions of it.  22 MR. RUSH:  Maybe.  2 3 MR. MACAULAY:  Unfortunately we haven't got the Exhibit 5  24 itself.  25 MR. RUSH:  Well, my lord, is it agreed that map eight is Exhibit  26 5 for Identification?  27 THE COURT:  Yes, I think so.  That's as I understand it.  28 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, I've asked the counsel — my friends to get  29 a copy of the exhibit itself, my lord, because there's  30 obviously a discrepancy there, and we'll come back to  31 it when the exhibit comes in the room.  I certainly  32 don't want to mislead the witness or the court, and if  33 my friend says there's some doubt about the accuracy  34 of my proposition I think I should wait until we get  35 the exhibit.  36 THE COURT:  All right.  37 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  3 8 MR. MACAULAY:  39 Q   We'll turn to the second property.  That's the  40 McBride -- what's described as the McBride Lake one,  41 and that includes a long stretch of the Morice Lake,  42 doesn't it?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And the Morice River?  45 A  M'hm.  46 Q   Yeah.  And that was -- that is claimed by Woos?  47 A   Yes, Woos. 1016?  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q Woos.  I'm sorry.  And that was your father's name?  2 A Yes.  3 Q Now, they are members of the wolf clan?  4 A Yes.  5 Q And did you know whether or not Lucy Namox of the frog  6 ravens has a registered trapline in that area?  7 A Yes.  Around the southeast corner of the Caspit  8 territory.  9 Q But that's part of the territory that you say is Woos?  10 A That's -- Caspit's territory is the lake, Kidprice  11 Lake, Caspit's territory.  12 Q Now, is Caspit a separate house?  13 A No.  14 Q It's part of Woos?  15 A No.  16 Q Well, part -- who does he belong to?  17 A Goohlaht.  Yes.  18 Q I see.  To Lucy Namox's house?  19 A Yes.  2 0 Q All right.  So Lucy Namox -- you agree that Lucy Namox  21 has registered a trapline on part of this area you  22 describe here at page -- starting at page four, and in  23 fact at page five is the description, she has a  24 registered trapline in that area?  25 A Page four.  26 Q Well, your description is actually on page five here,  27 paragraph 12.  You're familiar with that description?  28 A Yes.  29 Q And inside that land that you've described is part of  30 Lucy Namox's registered trapline?  31 A Along the Morice River.  32 Q Yeah.  33 A That's -- that's Knedebeas' trapping ground.  That's  34 around Gosnell Creek or Talbiits Kwe.  That's  35 Knedebeas.  36 Q Well, does her registration not cover any part of the  37 land you're describing here?  38 A It borders on it.  39 Q It doesn't cover any part?  40 A It doesn't cover Knedebeas territory.  41 Q And how about Charles Austin's trapline?  42 A Charles Austin?  4 3 Q Do you know him?  44 A Yes.  45 Q What house does he belong to?  4 6 A Hagwilneghl.  47 Q Hagwilneghl.  And what clan is that? 10169  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A   Frog clan.  2 Q   And doesn't he have a large trapline in the -- this --  3 the Morice River part of the land you're describing,  4 Morice Lake, the land you're describing here?  5 A   No.  6 Q   He doesn't?  7 A   I don't recall seeing him around there.  I don't know.  8 Q   Well, do you know -- you know him, don't you?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   But you don't know whether or not he's got a  11 registered trapline there?  12 A  Well, just along the Morice River there's Knedebeas  13 and there's another area.  There's Caspit.  And the  14 other area is Knedebeas' family.  And there was the  15 part called Bii wenii k'ek.  That belongs to Gitdumden  16 people.  17 Q   That's the wolf?  18 A   Yes.  Charlie Austin doesn't have trapline anywhere  19 close to where Woos territory is.  20 Q   Well, you haven't seen his trapline map that's  21 attached to his trapline?  22 A   I haven't thought of it.  I know my father Woos'  23 trapping grounds.  I'm not familiar with other --  24 other areas.  25 Q   Now, how about John Wall?  26 A   John Wall?  27 Q   Does he have a registered trapline in part of the area  28 that you say belongs to Woos?  29 A   I believe he does.  He's a white man.  30 Q   M'hm.  31 A   He traps.  32 Q   South side of the lake?  33 A   I believe so.  I don't really know.  I know it belongs  34 to Woos, but I know the game wardens have given it to  35 different white people.  36 Q   Well, now just north of John Wall's trapline isn't  37 that where Charlie Austin's trapline starts on the  38 north side of the lake?  39 A   North side of the lake?  40 Q   Of Morice Lake?  41 A   I know the immediate area of Woos' territory, but I  42 don't know who has an outline.  I know Caspit has.  43 Q   Yes, we have covered Caspit.  You know that Caspit is  44 trapping?  45 A   It's not joining it, Woos' trapline, trapping grounds.  46 Q   Well, now your description brings Woos -- does it  47 bring Woos right out to the border with the Haisla? 10170  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A   Haisla.  2 Q   You know where the Haisla live.  They live west of the  3 Wet'suwet'en.  4 A  M'hm.  5 Q   So do you say -- well, is it your -- were you told by  6 your ancestors that Woos' territory goes right out to  7 that border with the Haisla?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   It does.  And now we'll come back to this map that we  10 mentioned earlier, the map that we started this  11 lawsuit with.  12 THE COURT:  Could I have a spelling for Haisla, please.  13 MR. MACAULAY:  H-A-I-S-L-A, my lord.  14 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  They're associated, I understand,  15 with the Kwakutle.  16 MR. MACAULAY:  They live west of that mountain range.  I should  17 hand a copy up to your lordship after showing my  18 friend.  19 THE COURT:  What are you showing your friend, Mr. Macaulay?  20 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, a copy of a map, Exhibit 5, with particular  21 reference to the territory around Topley, and it's  22 labelling what I read to be Wah tah Kwets and then  23 underneath that K'hay Lah, and that was the -- there  24 is the label saying Exhibit 5.  I'll hand it up to  25 your lordship, but I'm assured by my friends for the  26 province this is Exhibit 5.  I don't have one.  27 MR. RUSH:  Neither do I.  28 MR. MACAULAY:  But I have the series that's not an exhibit.  2 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  30 MR. MACAULAY:  Which we took pains to produce as accurately as  31 we could.  And it shows that territory as having the  32 label Wah tah Kwets and underneath that K'hay Lah.  33 THE COURT:  All right.  I accept everything counsel tell me.  34 MR. MACAULAY:  I realize that the map eight for the plaintiffs,  35 which is said to be the Exhibit 5, has a different  36 notation.  37 THE COURT:  Are you talking about Topley, are we?  38 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  Their label reads Hagwilneghl and then  39 K'hay Lah.  Show his lordship.  I'll be referring to  40 the map with the witness.  41 THE COURT:  I haven't found Topley yet.  42 MR. MACAULAY:  It's on the right-hand border east of Smogelgem  43 north of Madeek and Kweese.  44 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  Well, what this shows is that Wah tah  45 Kwets surrounds Topley.  Whether that's so or not --  46 MR. RUSH:  It says Wah tah Kwets and then K'hay Lah.  4 7 THE COURT:  Yes. 10171  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 MR. MACAULAY:  That's what I put to the witness.  And my friend  2 can challenge that.  I'm going to proceed on the  3 footing that that map is an accurate copy.  That's all  4 it is is a photocopy --  5 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  6 MR. MACAULAY:  — Of the exhibit.  If I'm wrong, of course, my  7 cross-examination is useless.  That -- could I show  8 the witness that?  9 THE COURT:  Yes.  Certainly.  Maybe it's easier if I do it.  10 MR. MACAULAY:  11 Q   Now, this area around Topley is the area that's  12 mentioned in the first section of your affidavit,  13 isn't it?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   Yeah.  And when we were talking about Woos' territory  16 that is the territory going right out to the border  17 with the Haisla along a line of the Morice Lake?  18 A   Yes.  It's along Morice River and Morice Lake.  19 Q   And Morice Lake; right?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And you'll notice here that on Exhibit 5, that's the  22 map we started with, all that area has a label  23 Goohlaht, Caspit.  You're saying that's not right?  24 That's wrong?  There's Morice Lake, see?  25 A  Where is Morice River?  It's right here.  26 Q   No, no.  27 MR. RUSH:  That's not Morice River.  28 MR. MACAULAY:  This map shows Woos to the east of Morice Lake.  29 Woos, Gyolugyet.  30 THE COURT:  The Morice River flows north to the Bulkley, does it  31 not, out of Morice Lake?  32 MR. RUSH:  It flows east and then north.  33 THE COURT:  East then north.  Yes.  34 A  Where is Collins Lake and McBride Lake on this map?  35 MR. MACAULAY:  36 Q   Well, there's McBride Lake.  37 A   I'm looking at the wrong place.  38 Q   And there is Collins Lake.  39 A   Goohlaht is Caspit.  He has a trapline here.  And  40 Knedebeas has trapline somewhere around -- here's  41 Morice Lake around this area.  That's along the Morice  42 River.  43 MR. RUSH:  Now the witness placed her hand on the place where  44 Goohlaht and Caspit is located.  45 A   Right here.  46 MR. RUSH:  Placing it on.  47 MR. MACAULAY:  Where that name is printed, my lord, the witness 10172  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 showed -- pointed to that area.  2 THE COURT:  Yes.  3 MR. RUSH:  And —  4 THE COURT:  What she says is Woos' territory.  5 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  But I thought that she had just said that  6 Goohlaht and Caspit have a trapping area there.  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  8 A   Yes.  It is along this -- yes, they have a trapline  9 here, and Morice is around here.  10 MR. MACAULAY:  11 Q   To the east?  12 A  Morice.  13 Q   Or, you know --  14 A  Morice Lake, McBride Lake and Collins Lake, and is all  15 Woos up to -- to a lake called Taandet.  16 Q   How about Kidprice Lake, whose territory is that in?  17 A   Kidprice Lake is Goohlaht and Caspit and on the edge  18 of that is where the line -- Woos' line is.  19 MR. MACAULAY:  My lord, the non-exhibit shows McBride Lake and  20 Collins Lake.  21 THE COURT:  Yes.  Well, I remember McBride Lake very well.  It's  22 off to the east of -- east end of Morice Lake.  23 MR. MACAULAY:  And the witness' evidence is that is Woos'  24 territory.  25 A   Yes.  2 6 MR. MACAULAY:  But she has agreed with me that her  27 description -- I think she has agreed with me her  28 description of Woos territory goes right out to the  29 border along both sides of the Morice Lake and beyond.  30 THE COURT:  Extends east of Morice Lake to the —  31 MR. RUSH:  Well, I think that's not consistent with what she  32 just said.  33 MR. MACAULAY:  No, it isn't.  34 A   That territory takes in the whole of Morice Lake.  35 Woos' territory takes in the whole of Morice Lake.  36 THE COURT:  And beyond to the west?  37 A   There's -- I forgot what they call that.  38 THE COURT:  The way I understand the evidence, and I may be  39 simplifying it, but she says the territory of Woos was  40 beyond Morice Lake to the west with the very border of  41 the Haisla, but west of Morice Lake Goohlaht and  42 Caspit have trapline privileges, or trapline.  I don't  43 know if she said registered traplines, but they have  44 traplines there.  45 MR. RUSH:  Yes, that's what she said.  And then she said Woos  46 took in Morice Lake.  47 THE COURT:  All of Morice Lake. 10173  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 MR. RUSH:  That's right.  I don't think that's what any of the  2 maps show, but that's what her evidence is.  3 MR. RUSH:  Well, that's what — that's not only what her  4 evidence is, but that's what her affidavit is.  5 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  6 MR. MACAULAY:  Now, perhaps, my lord, the witness can show you  7 on Exhibit 5 where she was pointing when she  8 identified the Caspit?  9 A   Caspit is to the southeast of Woos' territory.  10 THE COURT:  Southeast?  11 A   Yes.  12 MR. MACAULAY:  13 Q   Could you point to --  14 A   Right here.  15 Q   Where is Morice Lake?  16 A   Right here.  17 Q   Yes.  And you're saying down here?  18 A   This area here belongs to Caspit.  Goohlaht there.  19 Q   And another registered trapline is Gordon Hall?  20 A   Yes.  That's Woos.  21 Q   That's Woos?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   He's a member of the House of Woos?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And he has a name in that house?  26 A   Yes.  Gyolugyet.  27 Q   Which is one of the most important names in that  28 house?  29 A   Yes.  30 MR. MACAULAY:  So, my lord, there appear to be four — well, I  31 suggested to the witness that there were four  32 traplines one place or another.  33 A  Woos and Gyolugyet use the same trapline.  34 MR. MACAULAY:  Yes.  35 THE COURT:  What did you say was the important name, Gordon  36 Hall?  37 MR. MACAULAY:  Gordon Hall.  My lord, he's a chief in the house  38 of Woos.  His name is Gyologyet, his chief's name.  39 And this witness' father was also in that same house  4 0 and his name was Woos?  41 A  And he was also a Gyologyet.  42 Q   He had both names?  43 A   Until he gave one to Gordon Hall.  44 Q   When he became --  45 A  Woos.  46 Q   -- Woos.  Now, the third property, if I could call it  47 that, or property C, that's where you described that 10174  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  at page eight of your affidavit, and that's the page  we were looking at when we started this evening, the  Gilmore Lake property.  You say that your -- according  to the information you have received from the people  you mention in your affidavit that is Goohlaht --  Goohlaht territory?  A   Yes.  Q   And they are the frog raven clan?  A   Yes.  Q   But Mr. Fontaine is -- has his registration in part on  that property too, hasn't he?  A   Yes.  Q   And he traps there?  A   Yes.  Q   And Johnny David also has a part of his registered  trapline on the Gilmore Lake territory?  A   It's his wife's, part of his wife's trapping ground.  Q   But you don't know whether or not it's Johnny David or  his wife who's registered?  A   I believe it was his wife.  His -- Johnny David --  Johnny David's trapping ground crosses the Bulkley and  went south quite a ways.  I don't know where, how far.  Q   But into that Gilmore Lake territory crossing the  Bulkley going south of the Bulkley?  I think so.  And what clan is his wife?  Goohlaht.  Samooh.  She is Goohlaht?  Samooh.  She held the name of Samooh.  And this is -- this Gilmore Lake property is one that  was listed on that big map we were looking at as  Samooh.  And that would be right, would it, Gilmore  Lake is the Samooh property?  Yes.  Yes.  This is Gilmore Lake right here, and  that's -- that's Guzeyh Keeyex, and it belongs to  Samooh Satsan.  Q   The Samooh Satsan property?  A   Yes.  Q   Okay.  THE COURT:  It's just south of Houston?  A   East of Houston, Topley area.  THE COURT:  In the Topley area.  Yes.  All right.  MR. MACAULAY:  The label, if I could call it that, my lord, the  witness pointed to is Samooh Satsan label.  THE COURT:  Yes, I have it.  MR. MACAUALY:  Q   Now, Mr. Fontaine and Mr. Scott trapped with your  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A 10175  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 permission on your trapline for some years?  2 A   No.  3 Q   They didn't?  4 A   No.  5 Q   I'm going to show you a letter.  I've already given my  6 friends a copy of this, my lord.  It's -- it's  7 actually part of the Attorney General of British  8 Columbia document 1276.  It's a file.  I'll show --  9 it's a photocopy of a letter.  10 A   Yes, I know.  11 Q   You've seen that?  12 A   Yes.  It just covers one trapping season.  I let them  13 use it for one trapping season, but no more.  14 Q   Well, it says two years from 1979 to 1981.  That's  15 what the letter says.  16 A   It's one trapping season.  Spring and fall, or fall.  17 That's all.  18 Q   Fall and spring.  But that was your letter?  19 A   Yes, it is.  I wrote that letter for Gordon Scott.  I  20 didn't write anything for Fontaine.  21 Q   Did Fontaine use -- do some trapping on the strength  22 of this letter?  23 A   No.  24 Q   He didn't?  25 A   I don't think so.  26 Q   You think Scott was the one who did the trapping?  27 A   Yes.  28 MR. MACAULAY:  Could this be marked as an exhibit, my lord.  2 9    THE COURT:  Next exhibit number?  30 THE REGISTRAR:  Next exhibit is 837.  31 THE COURT:  Thank you.  32  33 (EXHIBIT 837:  Photocopy of Letter)  34  35 MR. MACAULAY:  36 Q   Now, do you have a map showing what your trapline,  37 your registered trapline -- I'm only talking about  38 what your registered trapline boundaries are.  39 A   No, I don't.  I don't have one right now.  40 Q   Did you give your file of material to the tribal  41 council about your trapline?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And in fact you signed a letter agreeing to have your  44 trapline registered in the name of the Tribal Council  45 Association?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And you have a trapline number, as you know? 10176  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A   I don't know my number.  2 Q   No.  I'm not asking you what it is.  You know there  3 was a number for your trapline?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And you know that there is a map that the fish and  6 game people produce --  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   -- In connection with the registration of your  9 trapline?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   And that map -- that's the map that you gave to the  12 tribal council?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Okay.  Did you have a draft of your affidavit to read  15 before you signed?  16 A   Yes, I did.  17 Q   And did you make some corrections and send it back?  18 A   Some people came to my house and we -- we talked about  19 it.  20 Q   Was George Holland one of the people who came?  21 A   George Holland?  No.  I think Marvin George.  22 Q   Marvin George.  Yes.  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   And when he came to see you did he have a map showing  25 a boundary for these three territories?  26 A   Yes.  And Alfred Joseph came too.  27 Q   Alfred Joseph was with him?  28 A   He was at different time.  29 Q   Oh, a different time.  30 A   Yeah.  31 Q   And was that before you had a draft affidavit?  When  32 Marvin George came was that before you had a draft  33 affidavit to look at?  34 A  We went over this territories -- when we were going  35 over this territory, these Elk'et Ben territory and  36 Woos' territory and Samooh.  37 Q   So you had -- you had drafts of this long written  38 description and boundary?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And they had been -- so you went over those drafts,  41 did you?  42 A   Yes, we did.  43 Q   And did you notice that your -- your big long  44 description of the Woos territory, that is McBride  45 Lake, that it went in the shape of an S in the sense  46 that it, unlike the others which went in a circle,  47 that it was a different shape?  Do you remember that 10177  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 instead of going in a circle that the description was  2 S shaped?  3 A Of the whole territory?  4 Q Yeah.  5 A I never noticed that.  I just know the part the  6 territories begin and end.  I never noticed what shape  7 it took.  8 Q And how long after Mr. George's visit did you swear  9 the affidavit?  10 A Well, Marvin George was there when I signed the  11 papers.  12 Q Did he visit you once or twice, Marvin George?  13 A I believe twice.  14 Q And the second time would be the time then that you  15 signed?  16 A Yes.  17 Q And who was with him the second time?  18 A Louise.  The woman lawyer Louise.  19 Q Louise Mandell?  20 A Yes.  21 Q Now, do you agree with me that a member of the frog  22 clan should not be trapping on wolf territory?  23 A Yes.  24 Q And the same applies to the wolf, they should not be  25 trapping on frog or fireweed territory?  26 A Well, if a member of wolf clan is married to a member  27 of the frog clan they do trap up on there.  28 Q That's an exception to the rule.  Is it called --  29 there's a word for that, isn't there?  30 A There's a man and wife both go out trapping together  31 and it's either trapline.  32 Q Either his trapline or hers?  33 A That's the way my parents did it.  34 Q And you continue that way so long as they're both  35 alive?  36 A Yes.  37 Q The husband dies then the wife stays on her own  38 territory, does she?  39 A Yes.  40 Q Did you ever live in the Dennis Lake area or --  41 A Dennis Lake area?  42 Q Or Keel Weniits?  43 A No.  I always lived in Topley.  44 Q Now, your house -- the name of your house means in  45 English the House of Many Eyes?  46 A Yes.  47 Q And that was a description of a long house that was at 1017?  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Hagwilget a long time ago?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   That's how you understand it?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And —  6 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  Was that correct, or was it at  7 Moricetown?  8 MR. MACAULAY:  No, it was at Hagwilget the witness agreed.  9 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  10 MR. MACAULAY:  I put it to the witness.  11 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  12 MR. MACAULAY:  There was a -- there were houses at Moricetown as  13 well.  14 THE COURT:  It's just that I know I've heard this before and I  15 thought it was in relation to Moricetown, but --  16 MR. MACAULAY:  Hagwilget.  17 THE COURT:  Hagwilget.  All right.  18 MR. MACAULAY:  19 Q   And your house -- did your house have a totem pole at  20 Hagwilget?  21 A  Many years ago we did have.  22 Q   Did you ever hear the name of the pole?  Did it have a  2 3 name?  24 A   In Hagwilget I don't know the name of the pole.  25 Q   Does the word Kaigyet mean anything to you?  26 A   Kaigyet?  27 THE COURT:  Do you have a spelling for that, please, Mr.  28 Macaulay?  29 MR. MACAULAY:  K-A-I-G-Y-E-T  30 A   No, I don't.  31 Q   Now, one of the important names in your house is  32 Mountain Man?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And that's Gitumskanees?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   There is a Gitumskanees now?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And what are the crests of your house, the House of  39 Many Eyes?  40 A  Marten, and there's three children, and there's a dog,  41 and, of course, the eyes.  42 Q   Well, the dog is your personal crest, isn't he?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   That's not a house crest?  45 A   No.  46 Q   That's what goes with your name?  47 A   Totem pole my mother has a dog on. 10179  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q Well, she was K'hay Lah?  2 A Yes.  3 Q And you are K'hay Lah?  4 A Yes.  5 Q And that dog goes with the person who has the name?  6 A Yes.  7 Q When you took the name K'hay Lah there was a feast?  8 A Yes.  9 Q Was it long ago?  10 A About ten years.  Ten, 12 years ago.  It was right  11 after -- about a year after my mother died.  12 Q Yes.  13 A In '78.  Spring of '78.  14 Q And you had to contribute to the feast?  15 A Yes.  16 Q And was that an expensive contribution you had to  17 make?  18 A It was within my means.  19 Q How much did you have to contribute?  20 A About five, $600 myself personally, but my sister  21 and --  22 Q Other members of your family contributed too?  23 A And other members of the clan.  24 Q Clan.  When the name -- now, Hagwilneghl, who's the  25 head chief of your house, died not long ago?  26 A Within the last couple years.  27 Q That was Mr. Sylvester William?  28 A Yes.  2 9 Q Do you remember when he took his name?  30 A I believe it was back in the fifties.  31 Q Oh, it was a long time ago?  32 A Yes.  I don't remember exactly what date, but it's  33 back then.  34 Q Were you at that feast?  35 A I probably was, but there was -- I was young and we  36 didn't have a name at the time so.  37 Q No.  38 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  We didn't have a name.  You mean you and  39 your mother?  4 0 A I didn't have a name at the time.  41 MR. MACAULAY:  42 Q Did your mother have a name that long ago?  43 A Yes.  44 Q And there is a church chief as well as the chiefs of  45 houses?  46 A Yes.  47 Q And Johnny Moose Skin, who was a very well-known 10180  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 church chief --  2 A Yes.  It was before my time.  3 Q Yeah, but you've heard of him?  4 A Yes.  5 Q Because he was a famous man?  6 A Yes.  7 Q And who was the church chief now?  8 A I believe it's Roy Morris or Pat Namox.  One of the  9 two.  10 Q Oh, and the church chief has a seat at the feast?  11 A Yes.  12 Q And they speak for not only their clan but for anyone  13 at the feast; is that right?  14 A They speak mostly for his -- their own clan.  15 Q Mostly for their own clan?  16 A Yes.  Inside the feast hall.  17 Q Have you heard of Biinii?  18 A Biinii?  19 Q Yes.  20 A Yes.  21 Q What do you know of Biinii?  22 A Biinii is a woman that they believed she died and they  23 put her on stilts.  I guess that's the way they buried  24 the people at that time.  And awhile -- quite awhile  25 after they had her buried they heard her sing.  26 THE COURT:  How are you spelling that?  27 A Biinii is a woman, if you're thinking of the same  2 8 woman I am.  2 9    MR. MACAULAY:  30 Q About a hundred years ago, or a little more?  31 A Maybe.  32 MR. MACAULAY:  B-I-N-I, my lord.  33 THE COURT:  Thank you.  34 MR. MACAULAY:  Not a mythical person.  35 Q This is not a myth, it's somebody who actually lived  36 around 1860 or 1870?  37 A Yes.  It's -- I was told that she belonged to my  38 people, my clan.  39 Q And it certainly was a Wet'suwet'en?  40 A Yes.  This happened in Hagwilget.  41 Q Yes.  Well, the Gitumskanees was one of Biinii's chief  42 supporters; is that right?  43 A I didn't get —  44 Q You know Gitumskanees, the Mountain Man?  45 A Yes.  46 Q That's one of the important names in your house?  47 A Yes. 10181  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   Well, the Gitumskanees of a hundred years ago, or  2 little more, was one of Biinii's main supporters; is  3 that right?  4 A   Yes.  Gitumskanees was -- my mother's uncle is  5 Gitumskanees.  They lived in Burns Lake area.  6 Q   But a long time ago they all lived together at  7 Hagwilget, didn't they, in the big -- in the big  8 houses?  9 A   Yes.  They made fish, salmon and berries around that  10 area.  11 Q   Well, the House of Many Eyes is the place they stayed  12 when they were at Hagwilget fishing?  13 A   Yes.  14 THE COURT:  I think we should take an adjournment sometime soon,  15 Mr. Macaulay.  16 MR. MACAULAY:  This is convenient, my lord.  17 THE COURT:  All right.  We'll take a short adjournment.  18 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  19  2 0 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS)  21  22 THE COURT:  Well, this is just another ordinary night for other  23 people, but I just finished my thousandth page of  24 handwritten notes and I have to start a new book, but  25 you may proceed, Mr. Macaulay.  Thank you.  26 MR. MACAULAY:  I don't know if it's appropriate to say I'm  27 looking forward to the two thousandth.  28 THE COURT:  Well, I hope it takes as long to get to 2,000 as it  29 did to 1,000.  3 0 MR. MACAULAY:  31 Q   Did you know Antoine Jimmy who used to live in Telkwa?  32 A   Yes.  I was quite young when he died so I don't  33 remember.  34 Q   What house did he belong to?  35 A   Hagwilneghl.  36 Q   Hagwilneghl?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Do you know where he used to trap when he went  39 trapping?  40 A   He went out along the Morice Lake area.  41 Q   M'hm.  And did he and your father have a disagreement  42 about where trapping should be done?  43 A   No.  I've never recalled him having any disagreements.  44 Q   Did he have a name in the House of Hagwilneghl?  45 A   Yes, he did.  46 Q   And he was a member of the frog clan?  47 A   Yes. 10182  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q Of course your father was a member of the wolf?  2 A Yes.  3 Q Is his son Frank Jimmy still alive?  4 A Yes.  5 Q What house is he in?  6 A Wolf.  7 Q He's in wolf.  Now, you know Johnny David?  8 A Yes, he's my uncle.  9 Q And was he caretaker of Smogelgem's territory?  10 A Yes.  11 Q He was.  And why was that?  12 A 'Cause his father was Smogelgem.  13 Q His -- Johnny David's father was Smogelgem?  14 A Yes, but he was in a different clan than Smogelgem.  15 Q Yes.  He was a frog clan, but still he was caretaker  16 of Smogelgem's territory?  17 A Yes.  18 Q Now, when your older sister became the registered  19 owner of the ten acres of land that you live on was  20 that because of a will that your father had made, or  21 that your mother had made?  22 A Yes, my father made a will.  He -- just before he died  23 he turned land over to my sister.  24 Q Does she live on the land?  25 A No.  She lives just south of Seattle, Washington.  She  26 is up here quite a bit so she --  27 Q She comes up to the Bulkley Valley?  28 A Yes, quite a bit.  29 Q And at the present time is the land still used to  30 raise cattle and --  31 A No.  No.  32 Q Is it used for any agricultural purpose?  33 A No.  34 Q Does your son live on that land?  35 A Yes.  Kenny.  36 Q Kenny?  37 A Yes.  38 Q And what does he do?  39 A He is -- right now he's working for -- as carpenter  40 helper around Houston.  41 MR. MACAULAY:  Those are my questions of this witness.  Thank  42 you.  4 3    THE COURT:  Thank you.  44 MR. O'BYRNE:  No questions, my lord.  45 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Rush.  46 MR. RUSH: Thank you.  47 10183  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT:  RUSH:  Macaulay that your house was  name of that house in Wet'suwet'en?  name of the clan of that house in  RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. RUSH:  Q   Mrs. Critch, you told Mr.  Hagwilneghl's house?  Yes.  And what is the  Excuse me.  The  Wet'suwet'en?  Gen egh la yex.  I think I may have confused you with my question.  The  name of the house is Gen egh la yex?  Yes.  And what clan is Hagwilneghl?  Laksilyu.  I'm sorry.  Have I got that spelling somewhere?  Yes.  You should have, my lord.  When she says in paragraph 2 she is a member of the  House of Hagwilneghl.  That's right.  MACAULAY:  Laksilyu clan as it says here.  COURT:  What am I missing here?  RUSH:  I don't know.  COURT:  I don't either.  MACAULAY:  I was using the English words because my  pronunciation is so bad.  Well, I don't know what you people are talking  about, so somebody better straighten it out for me.  Well, go back a step.  I think the evidence is, and I  don't think my friend will disagree with this, is that  the name of the chief of her House of Hagwilneghl, the  house name, because there are names to houses, is Gen  egh la yex and the clan of Hagwilneghl is Laksilyu.  My friend prefers to call that frog.  I don't think I've ever heard this name Gen egh la  yex.  I think you have, but you may not recall it.  Can I have the spelling for it, please?  TRANSLATOR:  G-E-N E-G-H L underline A Y-E-X.  COURT:  Y-E-X?  TRANSLATOR:  Yes.  COURT:  And that means Hagwilneghl?  RUSH:  It means -- no, my lord.  It means the House of Many  Eyes .  MACAULAY:  I think we covered that, the name of the --  RUSH:  Mr. Macaulay —  COURT:  Yes.  I'm having trouble with paragraph 2 of her  affidavit.  That's all.  RUSH:  Well, my lord, in some cases the name of the house  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT:  RUSH:  COURT: 10184  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  THE  COURT  8  9  MR.  RUSH:  10  THE  COURT  11  12  13  MR.  RUSH:  14  15  THE  COURT  16  MR.  RUSH:  17  18  19  20  THE  COURT  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  MR.  RUSH:  31  32  THE  COURT  33  MR.  RUSH:  34  THE  COURT  35  36  37  MR.  RUSH:  38  39  40  THE  COURT  41  MR.  RUSH:  42  THE  COURT  43  44  MR.  RUSH:  45  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  RUSH:  goes -- in almost all cases in this lawsuit the name  of the house goes by the chief name so you could read  that as the House of the Chief Hagwilneghl, but the  houses also have separate names, and in this case the  name of the house is Gen egh la yex, House of Many  Eyes .  :  Well, I don't intend to be critical in any way, but  does that mean that paragraph 2 is not accurate?  No, it is accurate, my lord.  :  Well, I don't understand how it can be three  separate names.  One is Halwilneghl, one is Gen egh la  yex and one is House of Many Eyes.  Firstly the House of Many Eyes is a translation for  Gen egh la yex.  There is only two.  :  Only two.  The houses go by the name of the chief.  That is to  say this could be the House of Chief Hagwilneghl, but  the House of Chief Hagwilneghl has as its separate  name Gen egh la yex.  :  I'm being obtuse, Mr. Rush, and it probably doesn't  matter, but I wouldn't read paragraph 2 that way.  I  mean, it's capable of that understanding.  I recognize  it could be read that way, but without more I would  have read that as being that she is a member of a  house and the name of that house is Hagwilneghl.  I'm  a member of the House of Hagwilneghl.  I recognize  what you're saying here.  You're saying because of  what that means is she belongs to the house whose  chief is Hagwilneghl who really has a different name.  It has also been the evidence that is commonplace for  the members of the house --  :  There has been a few, not many.  Pardon me?  : There has been a few, not many. I certainly  wouldn't have taken that from paragraph 2, but  that's —  Your lordship didn't let me finish the sentence.  My  point was that it has been commonplace that the name  of the house has gone by the chief name.  :  That's been the rule, and I accepted that --  That's right.  :  -- Except in those cases where I've been told  otherwise.  Yes.  And in many cases the evidence has been led of  specifically what the particular name of the house is.  :  Not many.  I can't think -- 10185  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1 THE COURT:  I can't think of any.  2 MR. RUSH:  — Of a lot.  I can think of a few.  3 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  I think I understand what you're  4 saying now.  Thank you.  5 MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  6 Q   Now, Mrs. Critch, Wah tah Kwets, what is the clan of  7 Wah tah Kwets?  8 A  Wah tah Kwets is Laksilyu.  9 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  I'm still in trouble again, because I  10 know there's two houses; Wah tah Kwets and Wah tah  11 K'eght.  12 MR. RUSH:  K-W-E-T, my lord.  13 THE COURT:  K-W-E-T.  Yes.  Is which clan again?  14 MR. RUSH:  Laksilyu.  15 THE COURT:  Thank you.  16 MR. RUSH:  17 Q   And you've indicated, Mrs. Critch, that Gitumskanees  18 is a chief in Hagwilneghl, and he would also be  19 Laksilyu?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And that would be the same with you?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   Now, Goohlaht, what is the name of the clan that  24 Goohlaht is in?  25 A   Laksilyu.  26 Q   And would that be similarly so for Samooh and Satsan?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Now, the name of the person who took the chief name of  29 Samooh you said is one of the Naziel --  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   -- Boys?  Would that be -- do you recall the name to  32 be Herbie Naziel?  33 A   Yes.  34 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, my lord, the fact is the witness now  35 recalls it, but the witness didn't recall it at the  3 6              time.  37 A   Yes, I didn't recall it.  3 8 MR. RUSH:  39 Q   I think you've told us, Mrs. Critch, that your father  40 Matthew Sam held the names of Woos and Gyologyet?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   Did he hold the names at the same time?  43 A   No.  When he took the name Woos he gave the name  44 Gyologyet to Gordon Hall.  45 Q   Okay.  So prior to holding Woos he held the name of  46 Gyologyet?  47 A   Yes. 10186  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  19  20  A  21  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  28  29  Q  30  31  32  A  33  34  THE  COURT  35  36  A  37  THE  COURT  38  MR.  RUSH:  39  A  40  THE  COURT  41  THE  TRANS  42  THE  COURT  43  THE  TRANS  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  RUSH:  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  RUSH:  And do you know how long he held that name?  It's quite a few years.  20, 30 years.  And do you recall --  I don't remember.  His twenties.  Old Uncle Seymour  died he had the name Gyologyet and when he died my  father Matthew Sam took it.  And do you recall how long your father held the name  of Woos?  For 20 years, 25 years.  Now, you were asked some questions about the territory  in your affidavit which in its English name is McBride  Lake and in the affidavit is in Wet'suwet'en Lootdzes  Ben?  Lootdzes Ben.  And you were asked questions about the westerly end of  the territory.  All right.  And I want to ask you if  you can tell his lordship if that territory of Woos  contains within it a part of or all of or none of  Morice Lake or Wedzen Ben?  It takes in the whole of Wedzen Ben.  It's Morice  Lake.  All right.  Now, can you tell his lordship what -- if  there is a ground feature or a -- a geographic feature  at the west end which you know of which is the  westerly border of Woos' territory?  It's Taal biits Kwe on the west or southwest side  of -- that's Knedebeas' trapping ground along the  opposite shores of Morice River.  Okay.  Is there a geographic point either on the  border or within the territory of Woos at the westerly  end of -- of Wedzen Ben?  Oh, I don't recall that Wet'suwet'en name of that  particular place.  :  She said something that I'm sure wasn't Pebble  Beach, but it was close to that.  Paddle Beach?  Paddle Beach.  That's on Knedebeas.  :  Is that P-A-D-D-L-E?  I don't think so, my lord.  Maybe Mr. Mitchell --  T-A-A-L B-I-I-T-S.  :  One word?  EATOR:      Two  words.      New word.  :      B-I-I-T-S?  EATOR:      Knew word  B-E-N.  :      I'm  sorry.      I   can't   hear   you,   sir.  All right.  :  Just a minute, please.  Yes.  I'm sorry. 10187  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1  THE  TRANS  2  THE  COURT  3  MR.  RUSH:  4  Q  5  6  THE  TRANS  7  A  8  THE  COURT  9  10  A  11  THE  COURT  12  A  13  THE  COURT  14  MR.  RUSH:  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  A  31  32  33  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  EATOR:  T-A-A-L new word B-I-I-T-S new word B-E-N.  :  All right.  Thank you.  And what is that, please.  Is there an English -- what's the English name for  Taal biits?  I'm sorry.  Would you just read the name.  EATOR:  Taal biits Kwe.  Gosnell Creek or Gosnell River.  :  And can you tell me what is it again in relation to  Knedebeas?  That is his trapping ground.  :  His trapping ground?  Knedebeas' trapping ground.  :  Thank you.  All right.  You told Mr. Macaulay that Mr. Marvin  George talked to you before you signed the affidavit,  the paper here?  Yes.  Right.  And you also said that Mr. Alfred Joseph  talked to you on a separate occasion?  Yes.  Okay.  Now, did you talk about the -- the boundaries  or the rivers or creeks or lakes of the three  territories in your affidavit with anyone else prior  to signing the affidavit?  Leonard George came a couple of times to talk to me.  Now, these were people who talked to you in person.  Did you talk to anyone by phone about your affidavit  or about the geographic features on it?  I believe I had a couple phone calls.  They were --  they just -- that was at my daughter's place at  Houston.  They left a message and I phoned -- phoned  them.  Okay.  And do you recall who you had these discussions  with?  I believe Marvin George and Victor Jimmy phoned a few  times about these meetings.  Okay.  All right.  Now, you indicated that when you  signed the affidavit there was a woman lawyer and you  gave her name as Louise, and the suggestion was put to  you that was Louise Mandell.  I don't know if you have  the affidavit in front of you, but if you don't I'd  like to place it in front of you.  Thank you.  I just  turn to the last page of this.  I just ask you to, if  you can, identify your signature on the affidavit.  Do  you see that?  Yes. 101?  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1 Q   And on this side it looks like an I or a J and it  2 looks like M-E-L-D-R-U-M, Meldrum.  Do you recognize  3 that as the name of the person?  4 A   I wasn't paying attention to the name of the person.  5 It was a woman lawyer that came.  6 Q   All right.  7 A   I can't remember names.  8 Q   All right.  Now, you said that in the spring of 1978  9 or about ten to 12 years ago you took the name of  10 K'hay Lah?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And that your personal contribution was between -- was  13 five to $600?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And then you said that other members of the family and  16 the clan contributed?  17 A   Yeah.  18 Q   Do you recall how much?  Firstly I want to deal with  19 cash.  Do you recall how much money that other members  20 of the family or the clan contributed at that feast?  21 A   I don't remember the total, but people -- different  22 people contribute as much as they can.  Some 50, some  2 3 20, but I don't remember who put how much in or what.  24 Q   Okay.  Were there other kinds of contributions in  25 addition to money?  26 A   Yes.  There's blankets, material and towels.  27 Q   Do you know what the value of those things were?  28 A   I don't recall how much the value, but it's --  29 Q   All right.  And was there food contributed?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And do you recall what the value of the food was?  32 A   The food is -- it's the same thing.  I myself bought  33 150 to $200, but there's others that contributed a lot  34 of food, berries and --  35 Q   Okay.  Now, you were asked about the church chief, and  36 you said that you believed the church chief, the  37 present church chief was Roy Morris, or I think you  38 said Pat Namox?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Are those two men hereditary chiefs as well?  41 A   Yes, they are.  42 Q   Do those two men participate in feasts when you've  43 been present at feasts?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   When they participate in the feasts where you have  46 been present do they participate as hereditary chiefs  47 or as church chiefs? 10189  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  THE  COURT  15  A  16  MR.  RUSH:  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  Q  27  28  A  29  THE  COURT  30  A  31  MR.  RUSH:  32  Q  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  RUSH:  35  THE  COURT  36  MR.  RUSH:  37  38  THE  TRANS  39  MR.  RUSH:  40  41  THE  TRANS  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  RUSH:  44  Q  45  46  A  47  Hereditary chiefs.  You were asked a question about Antoine Jimmy.  Yes.  And you were asked if there were any disagreements  between your father and Antoine Jimmy in respect of  his trapping, and I think you said that Antoine Jimmy  trapped along the Morice Lake area?  Yes.  And do you have any knowledge about why he trapped out  at the Morice Lake area?  His wife was wolf clan or Gitdumden.  And did that give him rights to trap there?  Yes.  :  On whose territory?  Woos .  Woos is Gitdumden?  Yes.  Now, Mrs. Critch, you said that you trapped, I think,  almost every year, and you trapped a number of  different fur bearing animals; is that right?  Yes.  And was one of those animals that you trapped a  groundhog?  My father hunted groundhogs in the mountains.  All right.  And is there a Wet'suwet'en name for the  groundhog?  Det'nii.  :  Sorry?  Det'nii.  And can you describe  :  Sorry.  Det'nii.  Det'nii.  :  D-I?  I think it's D-E-T-  Mitchell.  EATOR:  Spell again?  I prefer your spelling  mine.  EATOR:  D-E-T-'-N-I-I.  :  Thank you.  N-E-E, if I have that right, Mr.  I'm sure it's better than  Now, can you tell his lordship what the colouration of  the fur of the Det'nii is?  What does it look like?  Well, it's a big animal about the size of -- around  the size of a beaver, and it's sort of grayish 10190  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  M. Critch (for the Plfs.)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  Proceedings  brownish coloured animal.  MR. RUSH:  Although I'm tempted, my lord, to ask the witness to  identify a picture I think I'll leave that until  tomorrow morning.  THE COURT:  I've seen lots of marmots so you don't need to be  concerned about that.  Thank you.  Yes, there was one other question I wanted to ask you.  Oh, you said that Gitumskanees was your mother's  uncle?  Yes.  And which Gitumskanees was that?  What name did that  person go by?  The English name, non-Wet'suwet'en name  if you --  Tom I think it would be.  His name was Tom?  Yes.  All right.  Thank you, very much.  Thank you, my  lord.  THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Thank you, Ms. Critch.  You're excused.  MR. RUSH  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR. RUSH  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  (WITNESS ASIDE)  Is there any reason to start early tomorrow, or what  do you counsel have in mind?  Oh, yes, we have already  agreed to that, haven't we?  Yes.  Nine o'clock.  Nine o'clock.  All right.  We'll adjourn now until  nine o'clock tomorrow morning.  I bid you all a  pleasant evening.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO DECEMBER  19?  AT 9:00 a.m.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Peri McHale, Official Reporter  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.

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