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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-01-23] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jan 23, 1989

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 11076  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 VANCOUVER, B.C.  2 JANUARY 23, 198 9  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  5 Columbia, Vancouver, this Monday, January 23, 1989.  6 In the matter of Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the  7 Queen.  8 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant.  9 MR. GRANT:  Before my friend commences, I just wanted to advise  10 the Court that I, in reviewing my notes, I had a  11 couple of questions of the witness on direct, and they  12 were partly -- dealt with questions raised by my  13 friends in correspondence subsequent to Wednesday.  14 THE COURT:  All right.  15 MR. GRANT:  I would like to deal with those before my friend's  16 cross.  17 THE COURT:  All right.  18 THE REGISTRAR:  I caution you, witness, you are still under  19 oath.  20 MR. GRANT:  Can I have Exhibit 853 (5) before the witness.  21 THE REGISTRAR:  That's the genealogy book, My Lord.  22 THE COURT:  Yes.  23  24 CONTINUED EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT:  25  26 Q   Before proceeding to that -- and I don't believe it's  27 going to be necessary to take it out of the folder.  I  28 will only be referring to the first page.  On page one  29 of Exhibit 853, tab 5 there is the name Johnny  30 Johnson, and do you know who he was?  31 A   Yes, I do.  32 Q   And under that is the name Delgamuukw?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   Did he take the name Delgamuukw?  35 A   Yes.  He had the name Gunun'awlaxha, and then in 1925  36 he took Delgamuukw and he raised a pole.  37 Q   Gunun'awlaxha is G-u-n-u-n apostrophe a-w-1-a-x-h-a.  38 And when did you say that was?  39 A   1925.  40 Q   When you were doing your research from 1984, I think  41 the spring of '84 to '87, were you under -- were you  42 working on a contract?  43 A   I didn't have a written contract.  I was hired by the  44 Tribal Council, and it was just requested of me that I  45 do genealogical research.  46 Q   So there is no written contract?  47 A   No, it was just verbal. 11077  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Grant  1 Q   Okay.  And you explained that you were working -- that  2 you went to Carleton.  Did you -- have you prepared a  3 draft thesis?  4 A   No, I haven't.  5 MR. GRANT:   Those are all the questions I have on direct, My  6 Lord.  7 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Goldie.  8 MS. KOENGISBERG: I just should advise that I was going to go  9 first, and I know Mr. Goldie is not as prepared, at  10 least materially this morning as he would be.  Late  11 yesterday afternoon I determined that my researchers  12 just could not get through on time, and Mr. Goldie has  13 agreed to go ahead.  14 THE COURT:  This is a matter between counsel, and I am happy to  15 see you resolve it any way you wish.  16 MR. GOLDIE:  The parcel — the problem — the only problem that  17 I have of a substantial nature is a preparation of a  18 book of documents.  19 THE COURT:  Yes.  20 MR. GOLDIE:  And there may come a time when that will lead to  21 some minor delay.  22 THE COURT:  You may catch up on your preparation.  23 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  Although that's not much to catch up with.  24  25 CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. GOLDIE:  26  27 Q   Mrs. Harris, just a few questions.  You have already  28 told us that you were working for the Provincial  2 9 Government and the Northwest Community College in  30 Hazelton in 1983, in 1984 until May when you were  31 employed by the Tribal Council.  Is my note of that  32 correct?  33 A   I was working for the Ministry of Human Resources as a  34 social worker.  35 Q   That's the Provincial Government, is it?  36 A   Yes, it is.  37 Q   Yes.  And were you not associated with the Northwest  38 Community College during that period?  39 A   I'm not sure of the dates that you gave.  40 Q   I am looking at Exhibit 851.  That's under tab 1 of  41 the black book.  42 MR. GRANT:  That's volume 1 of ours?  43 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, right.  44 Q   And on page three you have January, 1984, March, 1984,  45 college instructor, Northwest Community College,  46 English and math upgrading, Business English?  47 A   Yes. 11078  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  i  9  A  10  Q  11  i  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  ]  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  MR.  GOLDIE  26  THE  COURT:  27  MR.  GOLDIE  28  THE  COURT:  29  MR.  GRANT:  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Does that refresh your recollection?  Yes.  Yes.  And the location of that was where?  Hazelton.  Yes.  And just the preceding entry indicates your work  with the Ministry of Human Resources.  And then you --  as you have told us, you were employed by the Tribal  Council as a genealogy researcher, is that correct?  Yes.  But just before this -- or before this you were  married to Mr. David Harris and had become a member of  the House of Niist?  Yes.  And what was your -- the date of your marriage again?  August 20th, 1983.  Right.  Thank you.  And was your husband active in the  land claims movement at the time of your marriage?  No.  Did you attend the Tribal Council's convention in  Moricetown in January of 1983?  Yes, I did.  And did you read the Tribal Council's newsletter as it  appeared from time to time?  Occasionally.  :   Could I see Exhibit 762-6, please.  What's the exhibit number again please?  :  It's Exhibit 762-6.  Thank you.  And it is a copy of the -- of the Tribal Council's  newsletter dated January, 1983.  Do you remember  seeing that issue?  Not really.  You have no recollection?  No, I don't.  Would you look at page one, column three there,  which -- excuse me -- which is a report of the fifth  annual -- or Mr. Ralph Michell's report of the fifth  annual Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council Convention.  And  he says:  "We number approximately 4500 and reside in  eight different communties along the Skeena  and Bulkley Rivers."  Is that an approximation of the population of the  villages which form the Gitksan Wet'suwet'en Tribal 11079  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Council?  2 A  Well, that's Ralph Michell's approximation.  I'm not  3 positive if that's correct.  4 Q   Have you, for the purposes of your genealogical  5 studies, prepared a census of the people who formed  6 the subject of your study?  7 A   I'm not sure what you mean by a census.  8 Q   Counted up the number.  9 A   No, I haven't.  10 Q   You have no idea of the population of, say, Kispiox?  11 A   The population of a village, the resident population  12 of a village would have nothing to do with my  13 genealogical research.  My genealogical research is by  14 Houses.  Houses are associated with villages, but not  15 all members of a House are resident in the village  16 with which their House is associated.  17 Q   But everybody living in the village would be a member  18 of a House, would he or she not?  19 A   There could be people living in the village that were  20 married to residents -- or married to village  21 residents who were non-Indians or who are Nisga or  22 Crees or whatever.  23 Q   And who might have been adopted?  24 A   Some would be and some wouldn't be.  25 Q   How would you determine that?  By asking?  26 A   By asking.  27 Q   Yes.  Wouldn't you want to have accounted for  28 everybody who was there, either a member of a House by  29 birth or an adopted member of a House or not an  30 adopted member, just a resident?  31 A   The genealogies were done from the focus of the  32 Houses.  Sometimes if I become aware of people who  33 lived in a village and I didn't know what House they  34 belonged to, then I would inquire about House  35 membership.  36 Q   Yes.  37 A  And find out -- I may find that they were Nisga and  38 they were not in fact members of the Gitksan House.  I  39 can think of occasions where that has occurred.  40 Q   Wouldn't you want to ask the next question, had they  41 been adopted, or did you ask that question?  42 A  When I did the genealogies from the focus of the  43 House, I asked for adopted members as well as those  44 born into the House, and would be told at that time.  45 Q   Rather than accounting for everybody who lived in the  46 village, you relied upon your informants as to who the  47 members of the Houses were? 11080  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  A  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  MR.  GRANT:  14  MR.  GOLDIE  15  Q  16  17  18  1  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  MR.  GRANT:  27  MR.  GOLDIE  28  MR.  GRANT:  29  MR.  GOLDIE  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  46  47  That's right.  Only informants would have that  information.  Uh-huh.  And presumably the individuals themselves?  Yes.  Yes.  You were aware by virtue of having attended at  the Tribal Council Convention that the Gitksan and --  as they were then called -- the Carrier had made a  land claim to the federal government in 1977?  Yes.  A large part of that convention was focused on the  land claim, was it not?  Right.  This is the 1983 convention?  :  Yes, the one that she attended.  And if you look on page three, column two -- this is  a -- well, I should start on the preceding page.  It  is an open letter to the people resident in  Gitksan-Carrier territory by Jamie Sterritt.  And in  column two, the second paragraph, Mr.  and I quote:  Sterritt says,  "You will have heard much about land claims  being a cash bonanza."  Have you ever heard that?  I think the rest of that should be said.  :  Let me ask the question first.  It forms part of the --  Let me ask the question first.  Had you heard of land  claims being a cash bonanza?  Jamie Sterritt is not a member of a Gitksan House, and  people treat him with respect, but people don't  necessarily take everything seriously that he says.  No.  My question was:  Had you heard of the land  claims being a cash bonanza?  Never.  Never.  Would you agree with me that Mr. Kenny Muldoe  is a person -- hereditary chief whose word is entitled  to respect?  Yes, I would.  Thank you.  Then would you look at page four, column  two, paragraph two:  "Volunteer program"  I'm sorry. 11081  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2 "Land claims research preparation update."  3  4 Do you remember -- did you know Mr. Scott Clark?  5 A   I haven't met him.  6 Q   Do you recognize the name?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Yes.  And he held a position with the Tribal Council  9 as a land claims officer?  10 A   I don't know what his position was at the Tribal  11 Council.  12 Q   In column two, I read you the following sentence:  13  14 "The traditional/historical study is in its  15 final stages of information and collection."  16  17 Do you know what that referred to?  18 A   There is nothing that I have seen that's called  19 exactly by that title.  I could only guess at what he  20 is referring to.  21 Q   Well, I'll come back to that.  You told His Lordship  22 that -- or perhaps it's in your report, that in May of  23 '84, when you came to work for the Tribal Council,  24 there were a number of researchers already there who  25 had been working on genealogies; is that correct?  26 A   No.  That's not entirely correct.  There were  27 researchers and there were small bits and pieces of  28 genealogical information that had been collected  29 during the collection of the cultural research, which,  30 I believe, is what Mr. Scott Clark is referring to  31 here, although I never heard it called by this name,  32 and I read through some of those transcripts and took  33 out little pieces of genealogical information, but  34 there was very little.  I have almost forgotten  35 what --  36 Q   Were there any genealogical forms that had been  37 partially completed and that were given to you?  38 A   No.  39 Q   In the material that you -- that was sent to us  40 earlier in the month there, is a form printed by the  41 Mormon Church, partially completed.  Is that part of  42 something that you got, or was something that you  43 started on?  44 A   I would like to know what you are referring to.  45 Q   Well, I'll show it to you at a later time.  But your  46 recollection is that you didn't get any genealogical  47 information from anybody at the Tribal Council when 11082  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 you started your work?  2 A   No, I'm not saying I got no genealogical information.  3 There was no concerted effort to collect genealogies.  4 There were little bits and pieces contained within the  5 cultural research transcripts, but no one precisely  6 worked on genealogies.  7 Q   Right.  Thank you.  Who were the researchers that you  8 have referred to in your report?  9 A  Violet Smith.  10 Q   Yes.  11 A  Alfred Joseph and Marie Wilson.  12 Q   Violet Smith and Marie Wilson are Gitksan, and Mr.  13 Joseph is Wet'suwet'en; is that right?  14 A   Yes, it is.  15 Q   Right.  And you've -- on page three of Exhibit 762-6  16 is a photograph of Violet Smith identified as a land  17 claims researcher.  And that's what you understood her  18 to be?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   Thank you.  The subject of land claims was one that  21 was of widespread interest throughout the communties,  22 isn't that the case?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Now, you told us this morning that you had no written  25 contract of employment?  26 A   That's correct.  27 Q   Could you tell us a little bit more, please, how you  2 8 came to be employed, who approached whom, and what was  29 the proposal and what were the terms and conditions of  30 the employment?  I'm not interested in your salary,  31 I'm just interested in what you were to do and how it  32 came about that you were retained to do it.  33 A   Don Ryan approached me and asked me if I would do  34 genealogical research, and he told me that John Cove  35 had recommended that I would be capable of doing this  36 work.  37 Q   Uh-huh.  And were you receptive to that idea?  3 8 A   Yes, I was.  39 Q   Yes.  And does that outline the assignment?  40 A   Yes, it does.  41 Q   Yes.  And when was that?  42 A   I believe it was only two, maybe three weeks before I  43 actually started doing it.  44 Q   Within two or three weeks of the date in May, when you  45 started work?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And what did you understand was the purpose of your 11083  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 assignment?  2 A   I originally believed that membership was the purpose.  3 Q   Would you explain that please?  4 A  Who were and were not Gitksan.  5 Q   And this was for the -- this was connected with the  6 land claims?  7 A   It was part of the research to negotiate land claims,  8 yes.  9 Q   To determine who would be entitled to compensation, if  10 that became part of the settlement?  11 A   I have no idea if that was the assumption Don Ryan was  12 working under, but membership was --  13 Q   But by any definition you were a member of the Gitksan  14 at that time?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   You had been adopted -- I'm sorry?  17 A  Well, it's hard to say by any definition.  18 Q   Well, is there any other definition, then, which would  19 exclude you as a member?  20 A   That -- I don't know everyone's definition, but I  21 believed that the traditional Gitksan definition does  22 include adopted House members as well.  23 Q   Yes.  Well, you are quite right.  Perhaps I should  24 have put it this way.  By any Gitksan definition.  25 A   By the traditional Gitksan definition, yes.  26 Q   Well, are there different Gitksan -- you use the word  27 traditional there.  Are there different Gitksan  28 definitions?  29 A  Well, there could be young people that don't know the  30 traditional law, I suppose.  I don't assume to know  31 what all Gitksan know.  32 Q   All right.  But it was your -- prior to embarking upon  33 your assignment, you considered yourself to have  34 become a Gitksan?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And that was when you were adopted by -- was it David  37 Blackwater of the House of Niist?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Yes.  And that was when again?  40 A   I believe it was around March of 1984.  41 Q   Yes.  Now, you have told us that there was no  42 genealogical research underway, but the three people  43 you named had -- had bits and pieces of genealogical  44 material which they turned over to you?  45 A   No.  There were cultural research transcripts in the  46 files, partly collected by the three people I named,  47 and collected by other researchers who had worked at 11084  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 the Tribal Council before I did, but who were no  2 longer working there when I started.  I looked over  3 some of those, but I didn't go through them  4 systematically, because the genealogical information  5 was sparse and it wasn't very precise, so I found it  6 more productive to go directly to informants.  7 Q   Yes.  If you made use of any of that material, it  8 would be included in what was sent to us; is that your  9 understanding?  10 A   It was so long ago, it was before I was instructed to  11 save my research notes.  It was when I very first  12 began the research, and it was not 'til five or six  13 months later that I was instructed by Mr. Grant to  14 save all my research notes, and that was --  15 Q   Five or six months after May of 1984?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   You made reference to cultural research transcripts.  18 Are those transcripts of taped interviews with  19 informants?  20 A   I believe they are taped, because there is notations  21 of tape numbers.  I just read the transcripts.  I  22 didn't see the tapes.  23 Q   What about Dr. Rigsby's genealogies?  Had he not done  24 some genealogical work in the -- amongst the Gitksan?  25 A   I believe he did, but I didn't have access to his  26 notes.  27 Q   Were you aware of that at the time?  28 A  At the beginning, no, I wasn't.  29 Q   One of your references is the thesis of Alice  30 Kasakoff?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   You read that later, did you?  33 A   Yes, I did.  34 Q   She makes reference to Dr. Rigsby's genealogies?  35 A   I don't remember.  36 Q   I am going to show you, and it's the only copy I have,  37 but what I am instructed is a copy of a thesis  38 presented by Alice Kasakoff Adams to the Department of  39 Social Relations in partial fulfillment of the  40 requirements for the degree of Doctor of Philosophy in  41 the subject of social Anthropology, Cambridge,  42 Massachusetts, April, 1970, and at the top it states:  43  44 "Explicit and Implicit Marriage Rules among  45 the Gitksan."  46  47 And I am going to refer you to page 157, which is 11085  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 the appendix, and it reads:  "A note on the adequacy  2 of the sample".  Do you remember reading -- and I  3 quote:  4  5 "I checked our records against a genealogy  6 containing 38 marriages from the mid-1800's to  7 1968 collected by Rigsby in Kispiox in 1968."  8  9 Do you recall reading that?  10 A   I don't specifically remember reading that sentence.  11 Q   No.  In any event, I take it you didn't ask for Dr.  12 Rigsby's genealogies?  13 A   No, I didn't.  14 Q   He is the -- that's doctor -- is it Bruce Rigsby?  15 A   Yes, it is.  16 Q   Yes.  He is responsible for the standard orthography  17 that we use in this lawsuit, is he?  18 A   He may be.  I have learned the orthography from Susan  19 Marsden.  20 Q   I see.  Anyway, his specialty or one of his  21 specialties is the Gitksan language; is that right?  22 A   I believe so.  23 Q   Yes.  And he is an established anthropologist?  24 A   Yes, I would say so.  25 Q   Now, from page 8 of your report, the last paragraph,  26 you say this:  27  28 "So I began with various incomplete and  29 overlapping lists of Houses as a starting  30 point."  31  32 Was that something that was provided you?  33 A   Yes, it was.  34 Q   Just describe to me what that was.  35 A   There was a chart on the wall that had a village name,  36 such as Kispiox, and then had a drawing in the shape  37 of a House, and inside it there was a name of a House  38 that was attached to Kispiox village, such as Kliiyem  39 lax haa, Delgamuukw, et cetera, there was a chart on  40 the wall like that, that was incomplete that previous  41 researchers had worked on, and I don't know who  42 actually constructed that chart.  And there were  43 the -- some of the field notes of Neil Sterritt from  44 his research he did at feasts that we saw in the  45 Kliiyem lax haa file, where there were lists of names  46 that belonged to certain people who sat at certain  47 tables in the feast hall, and then the other thing was 11086  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 the -- we also saw -- actually it was from the  2 Wii'muglusxw file, it was attached to the Kliiyem lax  3 haa file, and it was the list that Violet Smith had  4 done with Mary Johnson on names belonging to certain  5 Kispiox Houses.  6 Q   I don't suppose you remember how many Houses were on  7 this chart?  8 A   No, I don't remember.  It wasn't complete anyways.  9 Q   So far as you are aware, none of your predecessors  10 were -- had any training in genealogical research?  11 A   I am not aware of what their training was.  12 Q   Were you to complete your work in any given time?  13 A   No.  14 Q   We were advised in June of 1987 that your report was a  15 full report and not a summary, but it has been  16 referred to here as a summary report.  Am I correct in  17 my understanding that the report that you filed, which  18 was filed on your behalf, I should say, which was  19 dated January of 1987, was intended by you to be a  20 final report of your assignment?  21 A   No.  It was still subject to revisions.  22 Q   Well, the differences between the January, 1987  23 report -- let me ask you this.  In what respect was it  24 not a final report in June of 1987?  25 A  Well, this -- it was -- whether it was between or not  26 was -- I don't know how to put this -- in its basic  27 points it was final in January of '87, and the  28 revisions were -- well, they weren't revisions so much  29 as additions.  There was more details added and  30 examples and things of this nature were added.  31 Q   To the charts?  32 A   No, to the report.  You are talking about the report,  33 aren't you?  34 Q   Oh, yes.  All right.  35 A   Yes, to the report.  36 Q   I was under the impression that what had been added to  37 the January, 1987 report to -- to produce the April,  38 1988 report was mainly selected from your responses to  39 your rule 28 questionnaire.  40 A   Yes, it was.  41 Q   Yes.  So what you did was take some of the responses,  42 not all, and include them as part of your report?  43 A   Yes, I did.  44 Q   But in January of 1987, of course, you didn't have the  45 rule 28 questionnaire.  It was intended to be a final  46 report, was it not?  47 A  Well, that wasn't up to me.  I mean, the date at which 11087  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 it became final was beyond my control.  As I say, in  2 January, 1987 all of the basic points were in there,  3 but given unlimited time, I could have put in more  4 examples and done more work on it.  5 Q   My Lord, the reference that I make to being advised  6 that it was a final report is in volume 28 of the  7 transcript, page 1867, lines 5 to 12, where Mr. -- my  8 friend Mr. Rush said:  9  10 "The Harris report is a full report and not a  11 summary."  12  13 MR. GRANT:  What is the date of that?  14 MR. GOLDIE:  June 26th, 1987.  15 Q   Well, just so I may be clear on this, is it your  16 evidence that the difference between the two reports  17 consists of additions selected from your responses to  18 the rule 28 questionnaire?  19 A  Mainly, yes.  20 Q   Are there any changes that you regard as changes of  21 substance?  22 A   No.  23 Q   Now, many of the charts themselves, of course, are  24 dated after January, 1987, are they not?  25 A   Yes, they are.  2 6 Q   And I take it that you had not completed the  27 genealogical charts by January, '87?  28 A   Genealogies can never be complete.  29 Q   Well, we are aware of that.  But as of January, 1987  30 had you completed final genealogical charts?  31 A   I can never say genealogies are complete.  They were  32 complete in that most of the House members were on the  33 genealogies, but --  34 Q   When you say they can never be complete, you are  35 talking about births and deaths, aren't you?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   Well, I said as of January, 1987 did you regard your  38 charts as complete, in the sense that the births and  39 deaths up to that date had been recorded?  40 A   Not 100 percent, no.  41 Q   No.  Are the drafts, as they stood at that time,  42 included in the material that you have preserved and  43 which has been sent to us?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   Now, you have told us this morning that you have not  46 started -- there is no draft of your proposed MA  47 thesis? 110?  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   No.  2 Q   Have you -- is there a faculty advisor with whom you  3 have discussed the subject?  4 A   John Cove is the chairman of my committee.  5 Q   Of your thesis committee?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And who are the members of that, please?  8 A  Well, it hasn't really been determined.  It was  9 established at one time, but I took several years off,  10 and who the other members will be hasn't been  11 established.  John will determine that.  12 Q   I see.  At the present time, then, the only known  13 member of your thesis committee is Dr. Cove?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   Yes.  All right.  Now, when you started out in May of  16 1984 as a genealogical researcher, you had literature  17 available to you for review in Hazelton?  18 A   I have some of my own and --  19 Q   Some of your college texts and things of that order?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And —  22 MR. GRANT:  I'm not sure the witness finished the answer.  23 THE WITNESS:  Yes, you are right, Mr. Grant.  And there were  24 some things that were in Tribal Council's library that  25 I read as well.  26 MR. GOLDIE:  27 Q   Are those references what are now included in page  28 five of your report in a letter from Mr. Grant?  Five,  29 the second paragraph, is an addition to your report,  30 and it reflects one of the answers to the questions in  31 the rule 28 questionnaire, I believe, and that sets  32 out some of your references.  33 A   Some of the references that I relied on in writing the  34 report?  Was that the question?  35 Q   Yes.  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   Now, those and those which -- those additions which  38 are referred to in Mr. Grant's letter --  39 MR. GRANT:  Which letter are you referring to?  40 MR. GOLDIE:  You gave us a letter which included additional  41 names.  42 MR. GRANT:  Is that the January 5th, '89 letter?  43 MR. GOLDIE:  It is.  44 MR. GRANT:  Possibly the witness could see it.  45 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  I have never seen this letter.  46 MR. GOLDIE:  47 Q   It includes those which are set out on the report and 11089  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  7  8  9  A  10  1  11  12  13  1  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  i  35  MR. GRANT:  36  MR. GOLDIE  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  42  MR. GOLDIE  43  44  the regist:  45  46  47  some others, but perhaps you can have a look at that.  Oh, that letter.  Okay.  These are some of the works  that I have read in -- during my training, and some  specifically while I was working on the report.  Uh-huh.  And can you now distinguish between those two  the ones that you read while you were at university or  college and the ones that you selected or read for the  purposes of your assignment?  Yes.  Some of them I would have reread at a later  date, but I believe number 1 on the letter, sketch of  the social organization of the Nass River Indians, I  believe that I had never read that until I started  doing the research.  That's Edward Sapir, S-a-p-i-r.  I read this one before.  That's number 2, Mr. Sapir.  Number 3, Phillip Drucker, I read that before.  That's a well-known piece of work, isn't it?  Yes.  Number 4, Roger Keesing, you read that before?  Yes.  And Robin Fox?  Yes, I read that before.  And Mr. -- another work by Drucker -- or is it the  same as number 3?  No, it's different.  Yes.  I had read that before.  And Marvin Harris, you had read that?  Yes.  And Viola Garfield?  Yes.  And you have had personal communications with Dr.  Cove?  There is others on the second page.  Then 10, 11 and 12, were those ones you were familiar  with prior to you embarking on your assignment?  Gee, I can't remember number 10, if that was before or  after.  Number 11 was certainly before, and number 12  was after.  :   Would you hand that up to His Lordship, please.  Could I have that marked, My Lord.  RAR:  Be Exhibit 859.  (EXHIBIT NO. 859 - LETTER FROM MR. GRANT TO MR.  GOLDIE DATED JANUARY 5, 198 9) 11090  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2 Q   Elsewhere in your report, Mrs. Harris, you list some  3 additional references.  I think it's page 106.  Would  4 you turn to that please.  106.  Has that been removed  5 from your copy?  6 A   It's missing, or is it out of place maybe?  7 MR. GRANT:  I believe it follows immediately on 102.  8 THE WITNESS:  I'm sorry.  Should I put that into the proper  9 place?  10 MR. GRANT:  I think that reference was put at 102, right  11 following 102, because it was a reference before one  12 of the appendices.  13 MR. GOLDIE:  14 Q   All right.  Then if you would look at page 106 which  15 follows page 102.  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And those are references, in the sense that they are  18 either referred to or perhaps all of them are referred  19 to in your report?  20 A   Those are referred to directly in my report.  21 Q   All right.  Fine.  Were these -- were you familiar  22 with these prior to your embarking on your assignment?  23 A   I was familiar with John Adams, Gitksan Potlatch,  24 before I started.  Not with Adams and Kasakoff  25 Anthropology Genealogy and History, that was written  26 at a later date.  Barbeau's Totem Poles I had read  27 before.  Ruth Benedict's Patterns of Culture I had  28 read before.  William Beynon, Temlaxam, Land of  29 Plenty, I read during my research.  Phillip Drucker,  30 Indians of the Northwest Coast, I had read before.  31 Kasakoff, Explicit and Implicit Marriage Rules, I read  32 during the research.  The Struggle for Survival, I  33 read before.  John Price, Indians of Canada, I read  34 before, and Worsening Health of Traditional Societies  35 I read during the research.  36 Q   All right.  The ones that you read before were --  37 are -- I'll put it this way, are standard reference  38 works for people taking courses in anthropology,  39 especially within a special focus on the northwest  40 Indian culture?  41 A  Most of them, yes.  42 Q   Yes.  You say in your report at page 8, I just want to  43 make sure I understand this, that you had undertaken  44 some reading prior to starting on your work.  Perhaps  45 that's not page 8, but I can ask you the question  46 directly.  Did you undertake a review of the  47 literature before commencing your field work? 11091  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Your review of the literature would have told you,  3 would it not, that the Gitksan were regarded by  4 anthropologists as part of the Tsimsian?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And that the Tsimsian was ordinary on a matrilineal  7 kinship model?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   In fact, if we look at page 2 of your report at  10 paragraph three, the third complete record beginning  11 with the words:  12  13 "My research demonstrate ..."  14  15 All of the things which are listed there had been  16 noted by prior writers; is that correct?  17 A   Yes, it's true in my research --  18 Q   Pardon?  19 A   It is so that the prior writers have said so, and my  20 research demonstrated that it was in fact true.  21 Q   Okay.  Would it not be a fairer way to put it that in  22 your opinion your research has confirmed these prior  23 opinions?  24 A   Concerning matrilineality and consent reckoning  25 through females, yes, but I wouldn't expand it beyond  26 that.  You will have to be more specific.  27 Q   I am referring to what is stated in that paragraph.  28 A   Yes, I can agree with that.  29 Q   And other people had expressed a view about the House,  30 the nature of a House?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Yes.  And other people had expressed views that  33 identified the primary grouping being a Wilp or a  34 House?  35 A  Where are you reading?  36 Q   I am reading from the third paragraph on page two.  37 A   Oh, I'm sorry.  Yes.  I don't -- I can't recall if  38 other writers said that specifically.  39 Q   All right.  And that the Houses is the land owning  40 unit and the main organizer of economic relations?  41 A  Again I can't recall specifically which writers  42 would -- would -- because they define the social  43 structure slightly differently sometimes, that's why I  44 specifically used Wilp or House, where other writers  45 have used different terminologies and interpret the  46 Houses being different things.  47 Q   I see.  Each Gitksan -- I am reading again from your 11092  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 report:  2  3 "Each Gitksan House belongs to one of four  4 clans."  5  6 That's been long established?  7 A   Yes, I believe so.  8 Q   And House clan membership determines most social  9 relationship, including marriage?  That's been long  10 established?  11 A   I would say that was generally conceded.  12 Q   And the next sentence:  13  14 "The most important feature of Gitksan  15 marriage is that one is prohibited from  16 marrying within one's clan."  17  18 That's a well-known marriage prohibition?  19 A   I would say that was accepted.  20 Q   And the marriage preference with respect to  21 cross-cousin marriage, that's -- that has been an  22 identifiable feature of a number of cultures, has it  23 not?  24 A   Yes, it has been.  25 Q   Including the Gitksan?  26 A   That's disputed in the literature, I believe.  27 Q   Well, isn't it disputed in the sense that there may be  28 an express marriage preference, but there is some  29 question as to the -- as to the degree to which it is  30 carried out; isn't that the dispute?  31 A   For some writers, and some say that one doesn't marry  32 into one's father's House as well.  So that also is  33 disputed.  34 Q   But there is an expressed preference, is there not?  35 A   Some writers deny that.  36 Q   I see.  All right.  Now, you told us that you didn't  37 have a census.  Am I correct in that?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Most geneaologists consider a census to be a necessary  40 prerequisite before embarking on genealogical field  41 work; isn't that right?  42 A   I would think that it might be an end product, not  43 a -- not something that you start with.  44 Q   Uh-huh.  Well, then, you can't agree or disagree with  45 the proposition that I put to you?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Now, as far as I can make out from the material you 11093  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 sent us, the earliest interview that I can find was  2 August 3rd, 1984.  And if things have gone according  3 to plan -- I'll show you what I am referring to.  4 Now, this is a document that has a form similar to one  5 that was in the material that you used to demonstrate  6 your methodology?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And happened to be related to Martha Brown?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   But this is the first one that we can find in terms of  11 chronology.  12 A   Okay.  13 Q   And this would be some three or four months after you  14 accepted the assignment?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   Do you recall anything earlier?  17 A   Interviews at an earlier date?  18 Q   Yes.  19 A   Gee, I can't remember the chronology --  20 Q   There might have been, because you were not instructed  21 to keep all of your material?  22 A  Absolutely.  I don't remember.  23 Q   There was -- appeared between May of '84 and your  24 first interview, when you were undertaking your  25 literature review; is that right?  26 A   Yes, but I was reading and doing interviews at the  2 7 same time.  28 Q   I see.  Can you explain to His Lordship the first  29 page.  Now, that 276 -- one is our numbering.  It's  30 not your numbering.  But the sequence is as we found  31 it in the material that was sent to us.  And the  32 informant, there are four names listed there:  Joshua  33 Campbell, Mary Moore, Norman Moore, Thomas Wright.  34 Does that mean that all four were present at the  35 interview?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And Joshua Campbell is the -- was the holder of the --  38 was the head chief?  39 A   He was Tsimwiitsiin.  40 Q   What did you mean when you filled in opposite the  41 printed words "traditional name" the word  42 "Luutkudziiwus"?  43 A   That was incorrect.  Luutkudziiwas and Tsimwiitsiin  44 are the two highest names belonging to that House.  45 Q   And he didn't hold the highest name?  46 A  Well, they are so equally related as to be almost  47 equal, but generally it's conceded that Luutkudziiwus 11094  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  is somewhat higher.  Q   Uh-huh.  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  GOLDIE:  Q  What is the other name please?  :   Tsimwiitsiin.  Could I have the spelling for that.  : T-s-i-m-w-i-i-t-s-i-i-n.  Now, I directed your attention to the four names  opposite the printed word "informant".  Did this mean  that you met with four people and there was a general  discussion of Mr. Campbell's chiefly name?  A   Yes, that's correct.  Q   Who were Mary Moore and Norman Moore?  A  Mary Moore is Joshua's niece, and Norman Moore is  Mary's son.  Q   His married son?  A   No, pardon me, is Mary Moore's son.  Q   Mary Moore's son?  A   Yes.  They were all members of the House of  Luutkudziiwas and Tsimwiitsiin.  Q   And what about Thomas Wright?  A   Thomas Wright is Mary Moore's father, and he lived  with them.  Q   Uh-huh.  A  And he would be a brother-in-law to Joshua Campbell.  Q   But not of that House?  A   No, that's correct.  Q   And out of that interview came the information that  you have written down here?  A   Yes.  Q   Was this information new to you, or had you some  indication of it already?  A   It was mostly new to me.  Q   Now, the next page, and this is in the course of the  same interview?  A   Yes, most of it.  Q   And this was the information with respect to Mr. Tom  Campbell who died in 1945?  A   Yes.  Q   And that information you got from a headstone?  A   Yes, I did.  Q   Yes.  The rest of the information you got from your  four informants?  A   Yes.  MR. GRANT:  Well, there is another reference there as to date of  birth, which is recorded from a headstone as well.  THE WITNESS:  Yes. 11095  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 MR. GOLDIE:  2 Q   And the next page.  And this was with respect to a  3 Joshua who had held the name of Luutkudziiwas?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And by this time your informants were talking about  6 somebody who was dead before any of them was born,  7 with the exception of Joshua Campbell, or is Thomas  8 Wright alive at that time?  9 A   I don't remember the death date of Joshua  10 Luutkudziiwas.  They called him Joshua Luutkudziiwas.  11 Q   Uh-huh.  And the relationship, was that given you by  12 your informants?  13 A   Yes, it was.  14 Q   Did you regard that interview as satisfactory for your  15 purposes?  16 A   Yes, I did.  17 Q   And you have used the information?  18 A   Yes, I have.  19 Q   Yes.  In your genealogy?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Now, would it be fair to say that at the time you  22 embarked upon this work, that your assignment was to  23 produce a genealogy on the matrilineal line system?  24 A  My assignment was to produce genealogies, and I was  25 the one who determined that they were matrilineal and  26 that they would be done by Houses.  27 Q   Well, your reading had told you that the society was  28 matrilineal, hadn't it?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   So you set out to gain information which would allow  31 you to create -- and I mean that in the best sense, a  32 matrilineal genealogy.  33 A   Partly, but I always enquired about House members, so  34 in fact I learned about some people who were not  35 related matrilineally, in that they were adopted, and  36 about people whose biological relationship to the  37 House members was not known, because it had been  38 forgotten.  39 Q   You discovered exceptions to the rule which you had  40 adopted in your assignment?  41 A   Only with adopted people.  42 Q   I see.  All right.  But the -- all I am suggesting to  43 you is that when you set out to obtain information,  44 you had an idea of what you were looking for?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   Yes.  You were looking for information which would  47 allow you to create a genealogy on the matrilineal 11096  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 system?  2 A   I suspected it would be.  3 Q   Well, that's what all your reading had told you?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Yes.  And at that time the -- it was no part of your  6 assignment to comment on the -- on what I'll call the  7 social structure as revealed by the genealogy?  8 A   Nobody asked me to comment on social structure at that  9 early date, no.  10 Q   No.  It wasn't -- it wasn't part of your assignment?  11 A  My assignment was extremely vague.  I was asked to  12 collect genealogical information, but with the highly  13 integrated nature of genealogy and social structure  14 you can't do both.  I mean, you can't do one without  15 doing the other.  16 Q   Yes, I understand, that's your evidence now.  But my  17 suggestion to you, and I thought it was your evidence,  18 that you were hired as a genealogy researcher, and  19 that you understood you were to determine the  20 membership of the Gitksan; isn't that right?  21 A   Yes, that's right, at the beginning.  22 Q   Right.  And the comment on the social structure came  23 later?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Right.  And it was initiated by you as a result of  26 what you found out in the course of your information  27 gathering work?  28 A  What was initiated by me?  29 Q   Initiated by you.  You I said.  30 A  What was initiated by me?  31 Q   Your comments on the social structure.  32 A  Which comments?  I don't know where --  33 Q   That I find in your report.  34 A   I don't know what -- I was learning about the social  35 structure while I was doing genealogical research, and  36 then I was requested to write the report, but by that  37 time I had been collecting information on social  38 structure for some time.  39 Q   Yes.  Well, you make a number of observations in your  40 report in which you were asked to state whether that  41 was your opinion, and you said yes, indeed it was your  42 opinion, and, for instance, you talk about:  43  44 "There is no rigid cast of royalty among the  45 Gitksan."  46  47 Well, that's got nothing to do with membership, does 11097  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 it?  2 A   Right.  3 Q   Yes.  That's what I meant when I say you initiated  4 comments on the social structure as a result of the  5 field work you did in determining the membership of  6 the Gitksan.  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Thank you.  Now, you refer at page 100 of your report.  9 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie, I'm sorry, but it seems to me there is  10 something missing in this, and that is that she also  11 said at some point she was asked to write a report on  12 social structure.  13 MR. GOLDIE:  I thought she was just asked to write a report.  14 Perhaps we might ask the witness.  15 THE COURT:  I'm not sure about that.  16 MR. GOLDIE:  17 Q   You say you were asked to write a report?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Was that a report on membership or a report on social  20 structure?  21 A   It wasn't a report on membership.  It was a report on  22 kinship and genealogy.  23 Q   All right.  And this is your response to that request?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Yes.  When I say "this", I am talking about your  26 report, of course.  27 A   Yes.  2 8 Q   Now, who made that request to you?  29 A   Gee, I can't remember who first asked me to write the  30 report.  I'm sorry, I don't remember if it was Mr.  31 Ryan or Mr. Grant.  32 Q   Or Mr. Overstall?  33 A   I don't remember.  34 Q   No recollection at all?  35 A   No.  36 Q   Did you submit a draft of your report to anyone?  37 A   There were drafts of the report.  38 Q   To whom did you submit the drafts?  39 A   There were usually several copies made, and I believe  40 Mr. Grant and probably Mr. Overstall read all the  41 drafts.  42 Q   What about Mr. Sterritt?  4 3 A   He may have read them, but he didn't comment.  44 Q   Did you receive comments from the others?  45 A   Certainly I received comments from Mr. Grant, and I  46 believe I received comments from Mr. Overstall.  47 Q   Well, so far, and I can't say that our reading of the 1109?  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 material that was sent to us is complete, we have  2 found no draft reports or comments by Mr. Overstall.  3 A  Well, I don't really remember him commenting, and I  4 didn't keep all of the -- he may not have even -- you  5 see, I don't remember.  I just don't remember --  6 comments sometimes came to me not as the draft, but  7 just as a note, and I may not have kept that.  I don't  8 remember.  I remember -- clearly I remember Mr. Rush  9 and Mr. Grant reading my report, but I don't remember  10 Mr. Overstall's comments.  11 Q   And you can't remember who requested you to make a  12 report?  13 A   No, I don't.  14 Q   Can you recall when?  15 A   No.  16 Q   Had you submitted any of your genealogical charts by  17 that time?  18 A   No.  19 MR. GRANT:  What does my friend mean by submit?  Submitting to  2 0 who?  21 MR. GOLDIE:  22 Q   Anybody.  Mr. Grant, Mr. Rush, Mr. Overstall.  23 A   No.  24 MR. GOLDIE:   All right.  I would like — I make a formal  25 request of my friend for the production of any drafts  26 and comments on the drafts which are not privileged.  27 MR. GRANT:  Well, My Lord, I note my friend's request, but I  28 want to say now that I anticipated this.  I made  29 investigations and I was unable -- I do not have any  30 drafts.  I was unable to locate any drafts, and as I  31 recall, as I -- I say as I recall, and I will check  32 this, if it's with respect to this report, as I recall  33 that this report was electronically processed and  34 amendments were made onto the data base as it's done.  35 That is my recollection.  So I have made inquiries.  I  36 will confirm that again today, because if there were  37 drafts, I provided a list to my friends of the  38 documents relating to correspondence between counsel  39 and this expert, as the practise has been since the  40 experts last fall, and I believe that I did not make  41 any references to drafts, because there were none that  42 I was able to locate.  43 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, we will leave that.  44 Q   I want to refer to page 100 of your report.  There is  45 a reference there to the House of Haalus.  Do you see  46 that?  47 A   Yes. 11099  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Now, this is -- this was added to your report as one  2 of your examples, I understand?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And this is one of the exceptions to the rule that  5 only House members inherit chiefs' titles; is that  6 right?  7 A   I wouldn't call it an exception to the rule.  8 Q   What would you -- how would you describe it?  9 A   I would say that this was -- the rule is that  10 inheritance within the House, and if the House becomes  11 extinct of original members, there has to be an  12 alternative rule to fall back on, otherwise the House  13 becomes extinct.  And this is going to that second  14 rule that is followed when there are no members of a  15 House still living.  16 Q   Yes.  What I am referring to is stated by you at page  17 63, where you say:  18  19 "Possible permeatations are numerous but  20 always within the rules of matrilineal  21 inheritance."  22  23 Only House members inherit the chief's name, except  24 in the case of a House which is virtually extinct?  25 A   Right.  26 Q   And you say the only exceptions that I know of.  And  27 that's what I meant when I said it is an exception to  28 the rule.  29 A   Okay.  I put it poorly by saying exceptions.  30 Q   I see.  You would say this is the second rule?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   All right.  Now, I have asked Ms. Sigurdson to put up  33 on the wall behind you the Haalus chart, and I have  34 done that, and I will do it with other charts, so that  35 we can get full extent of the genealogy.  This is tab  36 23, My Lord, in the book.  37 Now, am I correct in this, that it tells us that  38 Fanny Muldoe was adopted by Mr. Lattie's parents; is  39 that right?  4 0 A   No.  41 Q   What does it tell us?  42 A   Let's see.  No, she was adopted by Mr. Lattie in the  43 manner of a sister.  44 Q   I see.  So the genealogy which puts Fanny Muldoe as  45 Mr. Lattie's sister doesn't carry with it the  46 connotation that the parents of Mr. Lattie had  47 anything to do with it; is that right? 11100  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   That's right, because this is the difference between  2 the Ts'imilguudit and Sihlguxhlxwst.  3 Q   If Mr. Lattie's parents had adopted Fanny Muldoe,  4 would that have been depicted on the chart the same  5 way?  6 A   The English word adoption has no meaning in Gitksan.  7 Do you mean raised Fanny Muldoe?  8 Q   No.  Mrs. Harris, I am talking about your chart.  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And how would you have depicted on your chart an  11 adoption by the parents of Mr. Lattie of Fanny Muldoe?  12 A   Do you mean the taking into the House of Fanny Muldoe,  13 the bring into the House of Haalus.  14 Q   The adoption by either Lucy Lattie or Jimmy Lattie?  15 A   Okay.  Well, if Fanny was adopted by Jimmy, she  16 wouldn't appear on this genealogy, because he is just  17 a spouse of members of this House.  18 Q   I understand that.  19 A   If she was brought into the House by Lucy Lattie, I  20 would represent it the same way as I represented it  21 here, because who brought her in is not of much  22 significance.  The fact that she was brought into the  23 House is a significant factor.  24 Q   That's what I was getting at, that the depiction of  25 Fanny Muldoe's adoption by you in this chart is the  26 same whether she was adopted by Lucy Lattie or adopted  27 by Dick Lattie.  28 A   Sometimes I could rearrange it so that it would be a  29 little more clearer, in that the adopted lines could  30 follow all the way through to Lucy, but here it just  31 signifies that it was -- it was Dick that -- Dick  32 Lattie that adopted her.  33 Q   At least that's what you were informed?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Yes.  Because sometimes you do show an adoption by the  36 parent, don't you?  37 A  Well, parent is not an appropriate word to use.  38 Q   The mother.  39 A   That's not an appropriate word to use.  4 0 Q   All right.  41 A  We are talking about adoption into a House, not  42 raising of children.  43 Q   Yes.  In any event, Fanny Muldoe came from the House  44 of Luutkudziiwas?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And her village was Gitanmaax?  47 A   Luutkudziiwas is a Gitanmaax House.  I don't know 11101  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  16  17  18  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  MR. GRANT  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39   :  MR. GOLDI  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  47  Q  where Fanny resided.  All right.  Well, her House was a Gitanmaax House, as  you say?  Yes.  And she became a member of the House of Haalus of  Kitwangax?  Yes.  And she married Mr. Stanley Williams?  Yes.  And am I correct in my understanding of this chart  that there were no children of that marriage?  That's correct.  But there were adopted seven children?  This depicts adoptions into a House.  She in fact  raised Buddy Williams.  She raised him.  So Buddy was  Timilguudit and Sihlguxhlxwst by Fanny, but the others  are just people who are adopted into the House and not  necessarily raised by Fanny.  All right.  But for purposes of your chart they are  all in the same level, aren't they?  Yes, because those lines -- dotted lines indicate  adoption into a House only.  They don't refer to who  raised whom.  Buddy Williams was adopted?  Ts'imilguudit and Sihlguxhlxwst.  Yes.  And the others were adopted?  The others were Ts'imilguudit.  And Buddy Williams came from his mother's former  House?  Yes.  :  Just -- My Lord, just because the reporter's  indicating some difficulty, I don't think she was here  with us last week when these were referred to.  On  page 73 of the report, chapter six of adoption, the  second line has the Sihlguxhlxwst word, which is the  word beginning with "S", and the fourth line that is  Ts'imilguudit, which is the word beginning with "T",  and I believe the reporters have a copy of the report,  r:  Well, in any event, in one generation the biological  link has been broken, is that correct?  The biological link between whom and whom?  The original members of the House of Haalus and the  present members.  The House of Haalus was extinct or virtually extinct  at the time that most of the adoptions occurred.  Yes.  Well, my question was, the biological link has 11102  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 been broken?  2 A It's not a very appropriate question.  The biological  3 link between the current members of the House and Dick  4 Lattie is -- I guess you could say it has been broken,  5 if that's what you are referring to.  6 Q I am just referring to your chart.  That's all I am  7 referring to.  And the new chief appears to be from  8 another village?  9 A Yes.  Was born in another village, Billy Morrison.  10 Q Yes.  11 A Yes, that's correct.  12 Q He was adopted from Ma'uus?  13 A Yes.  14 Q Of Kispiox?  15 THE COURT:  Who is that please?  16 MR. GOLDIE:  Ma'uus, My Lord.  17 MR. GRANT:  Billy Morrison on the far left-hand side of the  18 third line of the genealogy, page one, My Lord.  19 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  20 MR. GRANT:  His spouse is just to the left of him.  21 MR. GOLDIE:  22 Q Now, is there a Kathleen Williams found on that chart?  23 A Yes, there is.  24 Q She is over on the right-hand side, or it's page  25 three, is it?  26 A Yes.  27 Q That was originally another side to the House of  28 Haalus?  29 A It was a lineage within the House.  30 Q Does that fit your definition of side?  31 A I don't use the word side.  32 Q I see.  All right.  It's a lineage which is not  33 biologically connected with the other lineage?  34 A I don't know the biological connection.  It may have  35 been there, but I don't know that.  36 Q As depicted, it's not biologically connected?  37 A Right, as depicted.  38 Q And that's what Professor Taylor called a sib, did he  39 not?  4 0 A I don't know.  41 Q I see.  All right.  It is a non-term, anthropological  42 or social anthropological literature?  43 A It's used differently by different writers, I believe.  44 Q In any event, that lineage unconnected biologically  45 with the lineage of Mr. Dick Lattie was a lineage in  46 the House of Haalus?  4 7 A Yes, it was. 11103  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Yes.  And does it not suggest there was a living  2 member of that House --  3 A   I don't know --  4 Q   -- of that lineage?  5 A   I don't know if Kathleen Williams is alive.  6 Q   As depicted on your chart, it suggests she is alive.  7 A   Only because we didn't -- I didn't know, and she may  8 or may not be, I have no idea.  9 Q   If Mr. Lattie had not adopted Fanny Muldoe, Kathleen  10 Williams would be the logical successor to the name of  11 Haalus, would she not?  12 A   There are far more things that go into who becomes a  13 successor than strictly the biological.  It's the most  14 important point, but if someone is an inappropriate  15 choice, the name could go to an adopted person, even  16 though there may be a few of the biological members  17 still in the --  18 Q   My question to you was:  If Mr. Lattie had not adopted  19 Fanny Muldoe, the logical successor to the name of  20 Haalus would have been Kathleen Williams as a member,  21 an existing member of that House?  22 A   If she was -- if she had the other required  23 characteristics, yes.  24 Q   And you don't know anything about her?  25 A   No, I don't.  26 Q   So when Mr. Lattie died, effectively the people who  27 decided upon his successor would be Fanny Muldoe and  28 Stanley Williams?  29 A   It would be Fanny Muldoe, and I don't know who of the  30 other adopted members of the House were already -- had  31 already become adopted at that time that Mr. Lattie  32 died, and it is possible that members of other Houses,  33 such as other Frog Clan Houses from Kigwangax who had  34 input, and at times the decision can be made with  35 input, chiefs from Houses even from different clans.  36 Q   Yes.  Well, you say Haalus came out of Wii Hlengwax?  37 A  Wii Hlengwax.  38 Q   Yes.  That's what you say in your report, do you not?  39 A   You mean the House of Haalus came out of Wii Hlengwax?  40 Q   Yes.  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   Well, if the people of Haalus had a choice, would they  43 not have looked to the Wii Hlengwax?  44 A  Wii Hlengwax is a small House, and many of the House  45 members of the House live away.  46 Q   But they are of the same clan and the same village?  47 A   Yes, and that would be a logical choice if they had 11104  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 people to spare.  2 Q   All right.  3 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Mr. Goldie, if you are leaving that —  4 can I ask, looking at page three, are the parents of  5 Mark Holland and William Holland and Ema Holland not  6 known?  7 THE WITNESS:   I couldn't find that information.  8 THE COURT:  I see.  Is it convenient to take the morning  9 adjournment, Mr. Goldie?  10 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, My Lord.  11 THE COURT:  Thank you.  12 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  13  14  15 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO  16 BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT  17 OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE  18 BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY.  19  2 0    21 LORI OXLEY  22 OFFICIAL REPORTER  23 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 11105  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 11105  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT)  2 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  5 Q   Thank you, my lord.  6 Mrs. Harris, you describe in your report, of  7 course, the two different types of adoption.  I think  8 at page 73 you get into that?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   But so far as the consequences of adoption are  11 concerned, is there any difference between the two  12 forms of adoption?  13 A   Here —  14 Q   I'm talking about consequences now.  15 A  And you're also talking about Ts'imilguudit as opposed  16 to Sihlguxhlxwst; is that what you're talking about?  17 Q   I'm talking about the two forms of adoption to which  18 you refer when we were talking about the genealogy  19 of -- of the House of Haalus.  20 A   Yes.  And I was talking about Ts'imilguudit and  21 Sihlguxhlxwst.  22 Q   Yes.  And you said that Fanny Muldoe represented one  23 type -- or I should say Buddy Williams represented one  24 type and the rest represented another type?  25 A   Buddy Williams represented both types.  26 Q   I beg your pardon?  27 A   Buddy Williams represented both types.  28 Q   In the sense that he was adopted and in both senses?  29 A   Yes, he was.  30 Q   Now, I'm asking you about so far as the consequences  31 are concerned, is there any difference?  32 A   Of course.  33 Q   They're both full house members, aren't they?  34 A   No.  You can be raised by a member of the house and  35 never become a member of that house.  Mary Johnson  36 raised Colette -- no.  I'm sorry.  That's not the  37 proper example.  I'm sorry.  But there are people who  38 have raised -- Pete Muldoe and Lattie Muldoe raised  39 Greg Muldoe, and he is a member of the wolf clan, and  40 they are members of the frog and fireweed.  The one's  41 nothing to do with the other.  42 Q   I'm talking about two types of adoption now.  43 A   It's very hard to answer a question about the word  44 adoption when you're referring to Gitksan society.  45 Q   I'm talking about your report.  46 A   On page 73?  47 Q   That's right. 11106  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   Now, what was the question?  2 Q   And I'm suggesting to you that you discussed two  3 different types of adoption.  And taking into account  4 all of the difficulties you may have about the use of  5 adoption, nevertheless there are two different types  6 of adoption?  7 A   Two meanings of the word adoption.  I'll accept that.  8 Q   All right.  Now, I'm suggesting to you that when those  9 two are -- are looked at, I'm simply asking is there  10 any difference in the consequence?  11 A   Yes.  Considerable difference.  Children who are  12 raised by someone other than their parents, that's  13 Sihlguxhlxwst, they are most often raised by a member  14 of the house they were born in.  So that kind of  15 adoption would have no consequence for house  16 membership.  But --  17 Q   Because the child is already a member of that house?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Yes.  20 A   That's right, but —  21 MR. GOLDIE:  Now, if by chance —  22 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  I don't believe the witness finished  23 her answer.  I believe you interjected.  24 MR. GOLDIE:  I did, because I wanted to make sure that I  25 understood the first type that we're talking about,  26 which is raising -- the raising of a child.  27 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant, the witness gave an answer to the  28 question.  The question was asked.  She answered it.  29 Mr. Goldie was then entitled to go on to something  30 else.  31 MR. GRANT:  She was -- as I recall, my lord, she said but.  32 THE COURT:  I know.  But she was going to make a speech then.  33 MR. GRANT:  I don't know whether she was going to explain.  34 THE COURT:  There's no reason to amplify the answer, because it  35 was a simple question that had to be answered yes or  36 no and she answered it.  Then counsel's entitled to go  37 on to something else.  38 MR. GOLDIE:  39 Q   You said in most cases.  I now want to ask you about  40 the form of adoption which is represented by somebody  41 other than the biological mother raising the child.  42 Now, if that happens and the mother is not in the same  43 house as the child, does the child take the house of  44 the mother who brings up that child?  45 A   Only if the child is Ts'imilguudit as well, which is  46 not necessarily so.  47 Q   I see.  But when we look at your charts and we see a 11107  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 dotted line, you are telling us regardless of how the  2 adoption takes place, a person at the end of that line  3 is in that house?  4 A   That's correct.  5 Q   Right.  So in that sense it doesn't matter what the  6 method of adoption is?  7 A   No.  What does matter is who raised the child,  8 according to the charts.  9 Q   Yes.  But —  10 A   The method is always the same.  A person takes a name  11 at a feast if they become represented on that chart.  12 Q   If there isn't one form of adoption or another, the  13 child wouldn't even be on the chart; isn't that  14 correct?  15 A   No.  The one form -- the raising of a child that is  16 not your own is not represented on the chart.  17 Q   Unless -- unless there is another form of adoption?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   All right.  20 A   That is correct.  21 Q   So in one sense so far as house membership is  22 concerned, the only form of adoption with which we are  23 concerned is one that changes the house of the person  24 adopted?  25 A   For the purposes of the current discussion, yes.  26 Q   Yes.  That's all that's depicted on your chart?  27 A   That is correct.  2 8 Q   All right.  Now, before the adjournment we were  29 talking about the House of Haalus, and I asked you  30 some questions about Kathleen Williams.  And you said  31 there are other considerations than the biological  32 relationship, and you talked about the worthiness of  33 the chief and so on, of the chiefly candidate and so  34 on.  Now, in relation to the House of Haalus, that is  35 speculation on your part, isn't it?  36 A  What is speculation on my part?  37 Q   About all those other factors, because as I understood  38 your evidence, you didn't know anything about Kathleen  39 Williams?  40 A   I didn't speculate about those other factors.  41 Q   There may be other factors, but in relation to  42 Kathleen Williams, that is speculation, isn't it?  43 A   I didn't speculate about those other factors.  44 Q   Well, I'm not talking about the other factors.  I'm  45 talking about their application to Kathleen Williams.  46 A   Right.  And I didn't speculate about their  47 application.  I don't even know if she's alive. 1110?  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   I see.  All right.  All I'm saying to you, you don't  2 know whether she was worthy or unworthy?  3 A   That's right, because I don't even know if she's  4 alive.  5 Q   Yes.  All right.  And when I asked you about the House  6 of Wii hlengwax, you said, well, that's a small house;  7 there's nobody that could be adopted out of that  8 house?  9 A   It's not likely because they are a small house.  I'm  10 not saying there's nobody.  11 Q   But you say at one time -- at one time Haalus came out  12 of Wii hlengwax?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Would that not suggest to you that the logical thing  15 would be for two smallish houses, one on the verge of  16 extinction, to merge or amalgamate?  17 A   That is a possible alternative.  It's up to the chiefs  18 to decide.  19 Q   I beg your pardon?  20 A   That's an alternative that's up to the chiefs to  21 decide.  22 Q   Who are the chiefs that decided that Wii hlengwax and  23 Haalus wouldn't analgamate?  24 A   I have no idea.  I wasn't at any meetings that that  25 was decided at.  26 Q   That information wasn't touched on, any information  27 that you received?  28 A  About that particular house, no.  29 Q   But the result that your chart depicts is that the  30 resources and the regalia, the crests and the names of  31 the House of Haalus have moved into the line of Fanny  32 Muldoe?  33 A   No.  What it depicts is Fanny Muldoe has moved into  34 the House of Haalus, that's all.  35 Q   All right.  Whichever way you put it.  But the other  36 result is that the resources, the crests, the regalia  37 have moved forever out of the line of Kathleen  38 Williams?  As you say, she may be dead?  39 A   No, not necessarily.  If Kathleen Williams is alive  40 and participates in the business of the house, she is  41 certainly entitled to do so.  42 Q   But at the present time, the -- the resources of the  43 house are now in the line of Fanny Muldoe, who has  44 been adopted into the House of Haalus and has no  45 biological connection with any of the members of that  46 house?  47 A   I don't think that's a fair way to put it. 11109  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  12  ]  13  14  ]  15  16  17  Q  18  19  20  21  22  A  23  MR.  GOLDIE  24  THE  COURT:  25  MR.  GOLDIE  26  THE  COURT:  27  MR.  GOLDIE  28  29  THE  COURT:  30  MR.  GOLDIE  31  Q  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  ]  39  A  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  Well, it may not be a fair way, but isn't it a fact?  No.  What is factually incorrect about that?  That the resources can be utilized by the members of  the House of Haalus, including Kathleen Williams if  she so chooses if she is alive.  But at the present time it is Fanny Muldoe's line  which is providing the candidates for the present  Haalus?  Fanny Muldoe has no biological children, and those  other house members that were adopted, Fanny Muldoe  may have been part of the decision to adopt those  people.  And it is true that they probably use -- I  mean I'm just speculating that they use the resources  of the house, but to say Fanny Muldoe's line is not an  appropriate way to put it.  All right.  Turning to page 100 of your report, you do  refer to the House of Ma'uus.  And in that case what  happened there was that when Ma'uus came close to  extinction, they turned to the house out of which it  had come from in the past?  Yes.  :  Now, I'd like you to --  Sorry.  What page?  :  That was 100, my lord.  It's item --  Oh, yes.  Thank you.  :  When I look at -- I've had the chart of Ma'uus put  up on the board there.  It's Tab 29, my lord.  Thank you.  But before I ask you to look at this, would you look  at Tab 28, which is the chart of Luutkudziiwas?  And  on page 5 of that chart, if I understand it correctly,  and there's a distinct chance I don't, it would appear  that Jeff Harris Junior, his sister Gloria, his  brother George and his mother Emma were all adopted  out of the House of Luutkudziiwas into the House of  Ma'uus?  This was a convenient way to depict it.  It was Emma  who was adopted out of the House of Luutkudziiwas, but  because of the fact that one of her children remained  with the Luutkudziiwas house, this was the only  convenient way to depict how this occurred, because  the adoption occurred before the children were born,  as far as I know, but it is true that they went to the  House of Ma'uus.  If the -- if Emma's adoption took place before the 11110  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR  A  Q  children were born, wouldn't Fred have been a member  of the house of Ma'uus?  Fred is the husband --  I'm sorry.  I'm -- wouldn't --  Vera.  -- Vera have been born a member of the House of  Ma'uus?  That's for the chiefs to decide, whether the children  of a woman they adopt go to the house into which she's  adopted or remain with her former house, and that was  the decision that was made.  Vera's on page 4.  Yes.  I have it.  Thank you.  GOLDIE:  Q   The adoption out then of the mother, Emma, was at some  time afterwards extended to the adoption out of three  of her children?  Yes.  And those would be individual choices by the chiefs  concerned?  A   It would be choices of the chiefs concerned, yes.  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  When I look at the chart of Ma'uus — and I'm  looking at page --  THE COURT:  That's 29.  MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Yes, my lord, it is.  I'm looking for -- yes.  Jeff  Harris.  Page 1.  Emma is shown as adopted; is that  correct?  Yes.  But Jeff and Gloria -- Jeff Junior, that is, and  Gloria and George are not shown as adopted.  Why would  that be?  Because their mother was adopted.  They weren't  adopted at a later date.  I thought -- I'm sorry.  I'm not following you.  I  thought you told me they were adopted at a later date  because they hadn't been born when the mother was  adopted?  That's right.  And the decision was all of Emma's  children would stay with her in this house except  Vera.  That decision was taken at a later date because  she married somebody from Gitanmaax.  Q   All right.  Let me be sure if I'm following you.  And  let's start back with the mother Emma.  She was  adopted out of the House of Luutkudziiwas into the  House of Ma'uus before she had any children?  A   That's correct.  A  Q  A  A 11111  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Yes.  And she had four children?  2 A   She had five children.  3 Q   Five children?  4 A   There's an older one of Luutkudziiwas.  5 Q   I see.  There should be another child on the  6 Luutkudziiwas chart?  7 A   Yes.  Millie, Millie Harris, which is represented by  8 Ma'uus.  9 Q   All right.  So Millie Harris was adopted into Ma'uus  10 also?  11 A   No.  The problem with this is there's no convenient  12 way to depict this on the charts.  And this occurs  13 again on one other genealogy.  Ordinarily when a woman  14 is adopted into a house and has children at a later  15 date, they are in the house that she was adopted into.  16 Q   Yes?  17 A   In this case and one other case that I know of, it was  18 determined many years later that one of the children  19 born afterwards would remain with the house that the  20 mother had come from.  It might have been clearer if  21 we'd have depicted that child as being adopted out of  22 Ma'uus again.  It's just a matter of trying to find a  23 convenient way to depict this situation.  24 MR. GOLDIE:  The — all right.  Now, I'd like you to help me a  25 bit with -- with this chart.  2 6    MR. GRANT:  Is that Ma'uus?  27 MR. GOLDIE:  28 Q   Ma'uus, yes.  What is the significance, please, of  29 Robert Morrison and Jane Crosbie in the middle of page  30 1?  31 A   Robert Morrison was a member of this house, but  32 when -- Jane Crosbie was his wife.  But members -- the  33 people I interviewed did not remember how Robert was  34 related to other members of the house.  35 Q   So there is no known biological connection?  36 A   Not known to me or to the other people that I spoke  37 to.  38 Q   And they were the most knowledgeable people you could  39 find?  40 A   In the time that I had to do this work.  It could have  41 gone on for much longer.  42 MR. GOLDIE:  You may return.  Well, I went through your notes of  43 the material that was provided us and I'm going to  44 refer you to the blue loose-leaf.  My lord, perhaps I  45 should tender the blue loose-leaf as an exhibit and  46 follow that with tabs.  47 THE COURT:  All right.  The blue loose-leaf will be identified 11112  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  THE  COURT:  4  THE  regist:  5  THE  COURT:  6  7  8  MR.  GOLDIE  9  10  THE  COURT:  11  12  MR.  GOLDIE  13  THE  COURT:  14  15  MR.  GOLDIE  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  i  22  A   '  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  i  27  28  29  A  30  31  ]  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  38  A  39  ]  40  41  Q  42  ]  43  A  44  Q  45  46  A  47  MR.  GOLDIE  as cross-examination documents of Heather Harris,  Volume I.  Yes.  RAR:  That will be Exhibit 860.  All right.  (EXHIBIT 860:  Cross-examination documents of Heather  Harris, Volume I)  :  And the documents under Tab 1, which the witness  identified, will be 860-1.  Yes.  I think you also referred the witness to  Tab — oh, no.  They're all part of Tab 1.  :  Yes.  There are three documents there.  They'll all be part of Tab 1.  (EXHIBIT 860-1:  Tab 1, Interviews, August 3, 1984)  I want to refer you to Tab 2 of that.  Have you got  that before you?  Yes, I do.  Now, this was -- this was in the material that was  sent to us.  Who is -- it says "Art Wilson's notes".  Who is Art Wilson, please?  Wii'mogulsxw.  He's not a member of the House of Ma'uus?  No, he isn't.  It states:  "Art Wilson's notes from Ma'uus house  meeting, November 7th, 1985".  And at 274-5, the third  line from the bottom, it states:  "Robert Morrison  first Ma'uus".  And that's what you have indicated?  I don't remember it.  I have to look at the chart  again.  Robert Morrison.  There were so many called  Morrison.  No.  It says on the chart he was Ax goot.  Am I right that the Robert Morrison that is referred  to in Mr. Wilson's notes is the Robert Morrison who  sits in the middle of page 1 of your genealogy?  I would say it is the same one.  Yes.  What you think is incorrect, however, is that he  was not the first Ma'uus?  That he was not Ma'uus.  To say someone was the first  Ma'uus, that's -- Art was -- why he put first, I don't  know.  Well, perhaps he was simply speaking first known  Ma'uus?  Possibly.  I don't know what Art meant by that.  You don't know.  You were present at this meeting,  weren't you?  Yes, I was.  :  Well, I'll come back to that in a minute. 11113  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 THE COURT:  What's the first Ma'uus that you show on your chart?  2 THE WITNESS:  I'm not sure which one had the name first.  That  3 might be in the -- in my files.  If the death dates  4 are all there, you would see that whichever one died  5 sooner was the first one recorded on the chart, but  6 I'm not sure if all the death dates are there.  I'd  7 have to look at the chart again.  8 MR. GOLDIE:  9 Q   Well, you have recorded whatever information you got  10 with respect to the genealogy of a house, have you  11 not?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Yes.  So your answer to his lordship's question is  14 wherever you find the first -- first death date,  15 you're looking at -- and the name Ma'uus, you're  16 looking at the first known Ma'uus?  17 A   Yes.  On that chart.  18 MR. GRANT:  Maybe she could look at the Ma'uus chart.  19 MR. GOLDIE:  20 Q   She may wish to do so, but I just wanted to make sure  21 that I was following her methodology.  22 Now, looking back at page 274-1, look at the first  23 two lines where it states, and I quote:  "Susan not  24 sure of origins of Ma'uus, photo of", and then three  25 series of dots following what looks like W.I.I.  Now,  26 firstly, Susan is Susan Marsden?  27 A   Yes, she is.  28 Q   And she is the daughter-in-law of Mr. Solomon Marsden?  29 A   That's correct.  30 Q   And is one of your informants?  31 A   She was my associate at the tribal council.  32 Q   Your associate?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   What do you mean by that, please?  35 A   She was a researcher at the tribal council at the same  3 6 time I was.  37 Q   Didn't you get information from her?  38 A  We discussed various aspects of the society and her  39 area of expertise was the origins of the houses.  40 Q   Yes?  41 A  And we discussed that.  42 Q   Yes.  And when she said she's not sure of the origins,  43 you accept that -- or you accepted that?  44 A   That she didn't have that knowledge?  45 Q   That's right.  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And you found no one else who did have that knowledge? 11114  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A No.  2 Q Who else did you find?  3 A Mary Johnson.  4 Q She was present at this meeting also, wasn't she?  5 A I believe she was.  6 Q Yes?  7 A And certainly other meetings.  We had several of those  8 meetings with several chiefs concerning Ma'uus house.  9 Q You were there and wasn't Mr. Jeff Harris Junior?  10 A Yes.  11 Q Or Senior perhaps?  12 A Both.  13 Q Both.  All right.  And Mary Johnson?  14 A Yes.  15 Q And Albert Tait?  16 A Yes.  17 Q Yes.  When you look at the last paragraph on this  18 page, page 1, the first line says:  "Mary/Ma'uus head  19 of the house" and then I can't follow the next word.  20 A It looks like totem.  21 Q Totem.  22 A But I don't know what that means.  23 Q And then Jeff Senior says he remembers Mathew M.?  24 A Morrison.  25 Q Morrison.  "Brother of Richard and Jacob", that's  26 Jacob Morrison, "could not take it.  He took it near  27 fire front row.  Ma'uus sit at Gawa".  Is that Gawa?  28 A Yes.  29 Q "Son's place".  Now, I'll ask you as we go along --  30 A I'm sorry.  That that was Guu'wasan.  31 Q I see.  All right.  32 A Gawa is short for a name that also belongs to Ma'uus  33 house, but this is Guu'wasan.  34 Q All right.  Thank you.  Now, looking at the first  35 page, it says:  "Jeff chief head of house, not now  36 just" -- is that clan?  37 A It looks like it.  38 Q And so on.  And those are -- he refers to Jacob, which  39 is a name on your chart?  40 A Yes.  41 Q Yes.  Now, the last sentence in that paragraph says  42 something "moved Ma'uus name".  What's that first  43 word, or do you recognize it?  44 A Where is that?  45 MR. GOLDIE:  The first paragraph on the second page, last line,  46 or maybe it's the --  47 THE COURT:  You see "Then Jacob Morrison died". 11115  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 MR. GOLDIE:  2 Q   Yes.  And then something "moved Ma'uus name".  3 A   Roy.  4 Q   Roy.  Do you recall what that conversation was all  5 about?  6 A   Roy -- Roy Wilson was a member of the House of Ma'uus  7 until very recently.  He just passed away.  And if  8 they say Roy move Ma'uus name, that means Roy gave the  9 name to someone.  10 Q   I see.  11 A   I assume this is what this means.  These are Art  12 Wilson's notes.  My notes from the same meeting could  13 be in the file.  I took notes at this meeting.  14 Q   Well, I wasn't able to identify it in the time I had.  15 A   They may not have been in there, but I did take notes  16 of this meeting, because I clearly remember.  There  17 was actually two meetings.  18 Q   Do you have your notes here?  I don't mean in the  19 courtroom, but have you brought them with you?  20 A   No, I haven't.  21 Q   I see.  22 A   It's in the files.  You have those files.  23 Q   Well, I'll bring up all the documents we got from you  24 and you may be of assistance to us in finding that.  25 Now -- so the word moved name means that the chief  2 6 nominated somebody to take that name?  2 7 A   It was --  28 Q   And that could be in or out of the biological line?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   Now, the last two lines on that page, "Mary J." --  31 that's Mary Johnson?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And she is reported to be saying "If you want a name,  34 go to Heather"?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And there was laughter?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   That was because you'd turned up lots of vacant names,  39 had you?  40 A   It was -- I had a list from the Barbeau files of names  41 that belonged to Ma'uus house and that's what she's  42 referring to.  43 Q   And not all of them were filled?  44 A   No.  Many of them were vacant, that's correct.  45 Q   And that was so of a number of houses?  46 A   I can't comment on most of the other houses.  47 Q   Well — 11116  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   I'd have to compare the list.  But I just -- I do  2 happen to remember that from Ma'uus house.  3 Q   That's what gave raise to Mary Johnson's remark?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Yes.  Vacant names are a matter of concern to the  6 Gitksan, are they not?  7 A   Not necessarily.  It's -- vacant names are not an  8 uncommon situation.  It's nice to have people for the  9 names, but names do sit vacant at times, especially so  10 in a small house.  11 Q   My question was, a vacant name is a matter of concern  12 though?  13 A   I don't -- I don't know.  14 Q   You've never run across anything in your -- in your  15 investigations which linked vacant names to concerns  16 about reincarnation?  17 A   No.  18 Q   Would -- would that suggest then that vacant names are  19 simply an indication of lack of interest?  20 A   No.  It indicates a lack of house members.  21 Q   A lack of candidates for the name?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And so far as you're aware, that's the only  24 significance of a vacant name?  25 A   No.  There can be some -- sometimes if -- if -- I  26 suppose it is appropriate.  I'm thinking of the ones  27 that would be most significant, is if a chief's name  28 is held vacant for a period of time, and that would be  29 a matter of individual situations.  30 Q   The chief might hold certain names vacant?  31 A   Yes.  Until an appropriate candidate can be found.  32 That occurs on occasion.  33 Q   Now, on page 4, about a third of the way down the  34 page, you have -- you were quoted as explaining the  35 genealogy.  I take it then that you had a draft  36 genealogy there at the time?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And the -- would you just enlarge, please?  There  39 appears to be a colour-coded genealogy, mostly green  40 symbols for frog, red killer whale, wolf red, people  41 in existence today.  I'm sorry.  I'm not reading that  42 in the order in which it's stated.  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   Will you tell his lordship a little bit more about  45 what you were talking about at that point?  46 A   Yes.  I brought to this meeting a hand drawn genealogy  47 in its rudimentary form at that time with the 11117  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 information that I had about the house members, and I  2 was trying to explain to the people at the meeting how  3 to read the charts that -- what the symbols meant.  4 And I had them colour coded, and as you can see the  5 green for frog, red for killer whale, and so on, so  6 that it makes clear the house members from the spouses  7 of house members.  8 Q   Right.  And the next line says:  "Charts need work  9 further back into history"?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Was that your statement?  12 A   I don't remember.  13 Q   Well, in any event, the chart as you presented it here  14 doesn't take one any further back into history than  15 Richard Morrison or his brothers or who appear to be  16 his brothers or some relationship?  17 A   No.  I believe it goes farther back than that, and  18 this was not the genealogy used at that time.  19 THE COURT:  You said Richard Morrison.  Did you mean Robert?  20 MR. GOLDIE:  21 Q   I meant Robert.  Sorry, my lord.  22 A   Some of these people -- we put Robert Morrison at this  23 particular level, this -- on the genealogy between  24 Jacob and Richard because he was roughly of the same  25 age.  But as I mentioned, people didn't know how he  26 was related biologically to Richard and Jacob, but we  27 do know some people from the previous generation.  28 Q   At the time you knew Jacob Morrison.  He was being  29 discussed in this meeting?  30 A  What I had of the genealogy at the time and what came  31 out of the meating I can't precisely remember, because  32 some of this information from these top two  33 generations came out of that meeting and another  34 meeting that was held two days in a row, I believe.  35 Q   Well, in any event, there's nothing on that chart that  36 indicates anything further back than one generation  37 beyond Jacob Morris?  38 A   Yes.  But that's not what they're referring to here.  39 Q   And then it goes on to say "Origins biggest  40 difficulty.  Some say Temlaham" and then there's --  41 Kitsegukla is crossed out or Kisgegas.  Which is it?  42 A   It looks like Kisgegas, but I can't vouch for Art's  43 notes.  44 Q   Do you recall a discussion of origin?  45 A   I don't remember that particular statement.  46 Q   Well, the next line, "Albert.  Mary first is right",  47 that was Albert Tait and Mary Johnson, and they 1111?  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 suggested that the origin of the House of Ma'uus was  2 Temlaham?  3 A   I don't remember.  It looks like that way, but I don't  4 remember.  I'm just going by Art's notes like you are.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  Is there any evidence of the source of the House of  6 Ma'uus other than the statement that Mary Johnson has  7 made?  8 MR. GRANT:  And Albert Tait?  9 THE WITNESS:  I believe it's —  10 MR. GOLDIE:  11 Q   Yes.  And Albert Tait.  12 A   I believe that it's referred to in Barbeau's totem  13 poles.  14 Q   So you think Barbeau would be -- if Barbeau was the  15 case, that would -- Mrs. Marsden was the expert on  16 Barbeau, was she not?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And when she says "not sure of origin", there's a  19 reference to both Barbeau and Wilson Duff immediately  20 following that statement.  Wouldn't that suggest to  21 you that she was unable to find support in the -- in  22 any of Barbeau's material?  23 A   I have no idea.  These aren't my notes.  24 Q   I see.  All right.  I'm asking for your independent  25 recollection at this time.  2 6 A   I don't remember.  27 Q   And then on page 7 -- by the way, neither Mary Johnson  28 nor Albert Tait are members of the House of Ma'uus,  29 are they?  30 A   No, they're not.  31 Q   And then page 7, the third entry:  "Last record of --  32 records of feasts forties, fifties, et cetera, to  33 prove in Court".  The question of the Court  34 proceedings known to the -- the fact of the Court  35 proceeding was known to the gathering there?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   In fact, the meeting was for the purpose of discussing  38 matters which related to the court case?  39 A   Yes.  The genealogical research and the historical  40 origin of the house was the main topics of discussion.  41 Q   Yes.  And do you recall a discussion of feast records?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   For the purpose of proving the fact in Court?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And then at the bottom of that page it says:  "Mary  46 will help with the crests, which Adaawk belongs to  47 who."  Do you recall that? 11119  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And that was Mary Johnson?  3 A   Yes.  She was the granddaughter of a former Ma'uus, so  4 she was knowledgeable about the house.  5 Q   She didn't -- and she was going to help gather that  6 material together?  7 A   She was going to discuss with Susan which of the  8 Adaawk that Susan had that specifically belonged to  9 Ma'uus' house --  10 Q   Right.  11 A   -- from Barbeau.  12 Q   And she would help with the crests?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   What do you understood she meant by that?  15 A   She would tell Susan the names of the -- or describe  16 the crests of the House of Ma'uus.  17 Q   Yes.  Is this discussion typical of the difficulties  18 that you encountered in the course of your  19 investigations?  20 A  Which difficulties are you referring to?  21 Q   Well, you've told his lordship that Robert Morrison is  22 mentioned as the first Ma'uus, but nobody knew what  23 his exact relationship was.  That would be a  24 difficulty for you as a genealogist, would it not?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   Yes.  So I ask you is that -- is this discussion  27 typical of the difficulty that you faced in tracing  28 relationships?  29 A   It fairly often occurred that I wouldn't know how a  30 specific person was related to other house members,  31 yes.  32 Q   And there would be -- it really was a task of  33 reconstruction, wasn't it?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   You were trying to elicit bits and pieces of  36 information from a number of people?  37 A   Yes.  38 MR. GOLDIE:  Now, the — my lord, I wonder if that — those  39 notes could be marked.  40 THE COURT:  860-2.  41 THE REGISTRAR:  860-2.  42 (EXHIBIT 860-2:  Tab 2, Notes of Art Williams)  43 MR. GOLDIE:  44 Q   Now, another house which is referred to as an  45 exception in the sense of -- I used that word a few  46 minutes ago to the statement on page 63, is the House  47 of Delgamuukw.  And at page 99 you say:  "Mark Johnson 11120  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 was the last Delgamuukw and the last original member  2 of that house.  When he died, Albert Tait from the  3 House of Ax gigii" --  4 A  Ax gigii.  5 Q   -- "took Delgamuukw, resulting in the amalgamation of  6 the two houses".  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   The houses of Delgamuukw and Ax gigii were closely  9 related Lax Seel houses from Kispiox.  Now, Miss  10 Sigurdson is putting up the genealogy from Tab 5, my  11 lord.  12 Now, pages 1 and 2 of that genealogy shows the  13 genealogy of the original House of Delgamuukw back two  14 generations from Mark Johnson; is that correct?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And the -- it also shows that there's a biologically  17 distinct lineage, one -- one, two, three, four, five  18 or what?  19 A   There's a distinct lineage that encompasses this group  20 of people.  21 Q   This group being those who are found on pages 3, 4, 5  22 and 6; is that right?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Yes?  25 A  And there's a small remnant of a lineage found on page  26 7.  27 Q   Yes.  28 A  And then there are four unrelated groups on page 8.  29 Q   Oh, I see.  There are four, five, six, seven lineages?  30 A  Well, it's hard to call an individual a lineage  31 because this is -- at the end here on page 8 you see  32 Hagee and his spouse is not, of course, a house member  33 of Wa'a and Ax gigii, and they are just individuals.  34 Q   All right.  I'll come to them then.  Am I correct that  35 going back to page 1 and 2, we're looking at the  36 lineage so far as you've been able to determine it of  37 the original House of Delgamuukw?  38 A   That's correct.  39 Q   And it shows that -- of that lineage only one person,  40 Ralph Wesley, is alive?  41 A   I'm not certain if he's alive.  It's questionable.  42 Q   Yes.  43 A   He doesn't live in Kispiox.  44 Q   Yes.  All right.  In any event, he is, of course,  45 closer to the original line than Albert Tait?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Now, in 1954 when Mark Johnson, who was then 11121  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Delgamuukw, died, do you know how many -- how many  2 living house members there were?  3 A   Not that I know of.  4 Q   So that the decision of Albert Tait to take the name  5 would have been taken by him and the members of his  6 house rather than by any members of the House of  7 Delgamuukw?  8 A  Albert may have been previously adopted by Mark  9 Johnson, and also he may have been designated as Mark  10 Johnson's heir because of the close relationship  11 between the two houses.  12 Q   Maybe so, but the decision to take the name, it would  13 have been his alone if Mark Johnson was the sole  14 remaining heir or sole remaining person and there is  15 no indication of adoption?  16 A   It would have been whose alone?  17 Q   Albert Tait's and the members of the house?  18 A   No.  A decision like that would never be made by an  19 individual.  It would be made by the chiefs of other  20 related houses who were alive at that time.  21 Q   All right.  But technically, and I stress that word  22 technically, there was nothing to prevent Ralph Wesley  23 from adopting and perpetuating the line of the  24 original line of Delgamuukw through the process of  25 adoption?  26 A   If he was alive, which I don't know.  27 Q   Well, you've shown him there, haven't you?  2 8 A   I've shown him there and I didn't show him as dead  29 because I didn't know if that was true or not, but  30 certainly he hasn't been resident of Kispiox for many,  31 many years if he is alive.  32 THE COURT:  I haven't found Ralph Wesley.  Where is he?  33 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, he's on page 2 right in the middle and  34 he's the only person named in that generation.  35 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  36 MR. GOLDIE:  37 Q   The effect, however, of Albert Tait becoming  38 Delgamuukw was that Ralph Wesley, assuming he was  39 alive in 1954, gave up his right to the name?  40 A   No.  No.  If he's alive and he comes back to  41 participate in the house affairs, he could pick the  42 name.  43 Q   But he gave it up at that time?  44 A   If he wasn't alive, he couldn't give it up.  45 Q   No.  46 A   If he wasn't resident in Kispiox and participating in  47 the affairs of the house, he also couldn't give it up. 11122  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Well, did you make any inquiries about the state of  2 affairs in 1954?  3 A  Which state of affairs?  4 MR. GRANT:  With respect to Delgamuukw's house?  5 MR. GOLDIE:  6 Q   With respect to the House of Delgamuukw.  7 A  With respect to how the decision -- who made the  8 decision to give Albert Tait the name; is that what  9 you're referring to?  10 Q   Well, anything related to the -- the acquisition of  11 the name by Albert Tait.  12 A   I didn't ask who made the decision.  13 Q   Or why it was made?  14 A   I -- I did ask why it was made, and I was told because  15 he was a member of a closely related house.  That's  16 all I can recall.  There may have been other  17 information.  18 Q   But so far as Ralph Wesley is concerned, once that  19 decision was made and for so long as Albert Tait was  20 alive, Ralph Wesley had no prospect of becoming -- of  21 being Delgamuukw, did he?  22 A   It's not likely.  23 MR. GOLDIE:  No.  And when we look at the centre genealogy --  24 that's on pages 3, 4, 5 and 6.  25 MR. GRANT:  Centre lineage or Delgamuukw genealogy?  26 MR. GOLDIE:  27 Q   The centre lineage, if you want to put it that way.  28 It is in fact the genealogy of the House of Ax gigii,  29 is it not?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Now, the holder of that name is Lottie Muldoe, who was  32 adopted into that house from Luus?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   Now, is Delgamuukw a higher name than Ax gigii?  35 A   Originally they were two house chiefs' names, but it  36 has been considered in recent times to be a higher  37 rank name.  3 8 Q   Delgamuukw?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Yes.  So when Mr. Tait became — that's Albert Tait.  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   When Mr. Albert Tait became Delgamuukw, the House of  43 Ax gigii really succeeded to the regalia and crests  44 and resources of Delgamuukw?  45 A   Yes.  They amalgamated and became one house.  46 Q   But Ax gigii, which was the house that was -- had lots  47 of members -- 11123  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A   No.  Q   Well, it had more members than Delgamuukw?  A   Yes.  Yes.  That's fair to say.  Q   Ax gigii in fact changes its name and becomes the  House of Delgamuukw?  A   No.  They're amalgamated, and people sometimes  referred to them as the House of Delgamuukw and Ax  gigii.  Q   But the amalgamation -- and now I want you to assume  that Ralph Wesley is dead, as you suspect he may be.  The amalgamation results in the resources of  Delgamuukw moving to the House of Ax gigii because  there is no one left at the House of Delgamuukw as  there was originally?  A   But the existense of the two houses has never been  forgiven and eventually Ax gigii may be reconsistuted  by some of the members of his family.  Q   Yes.  I understand that.  But the present control of  the resources of Delgamuukw is now under the control  of what used to be the House of Ax gigii at the  present time?  A   I suppose you could put it that way.  MR. GOLDIE:  When you look at the -- I'm sorry.  Excuse me.  THE COURT:  Is this a convenient time to adjourn, Mr. Goldie?  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, my lord.  THE COURT:  All right.  Two o'clock, please.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will recess,  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings transcribed to the best  of my skill and ability.  Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 11124  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  (PR'  2  3  THE  regist:  4  THE  COURT:  5  MR.  GOLDIE  6  Q   1  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  A  17  18  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  Q  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  29  30  31  A   I  32  33  1  34  Q  35  36  37  38  A  39  MR.  GRANT:  40  41  MR.  GOLDIE  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED AFTER LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT)  .R:  Order in court.  Ready to proceed, My Lord.  Mr. Goldie.  My Lord.  Mrs. Harris, just before the noon adjournment we were  talking about the House of Delgam Uukw, and if you  would turn to tab three in the blue book in front of  you, you will find the affidavit of Mr. Kenny Muldoe,  pages one to three, and then page 36, which is the  list of House members as given by Mr. Muldoe in his  answer.  Now, firstly, we have seen a number of these  lists in your material.  Did you make use of the lists  attached to the chiefs' responses to the  interrogatories?  I only had a chance to look at a few of them, and I'm  not sure which ones.  I see.  I take it from that that you didn't have a  hand in the preparation of them?  I submitted a preliminary list, and they were worked  on with the chiefs, and there were some additions and  changes made by the chiefs.  You submitted a list what?  To whom?  To people working for the Tribal Council who were  going to do the interrogatories with a particular  chief.  I see.  You didn't have the opportunity of speaking  with the individual chiefs in respect of the lists  that you prepared, the preliminary list that you  prepared?  Most of the preliminary information came from the  chiefs and their House members to begin with, but I  didn't do the interrogatories.  I see.  No, I understand that.  When we find, however,  an interrogatory list in the material that we were  sent, that doesn't necessarily indicate that you made  any use of that list?  That's correct.  Are you referring to the files, the Harris documents  that I referred to?  :  Yes.  You recall receiving some of the -- of these lists?  Yes, I had some of them.  How did you come into possession of them?  Would  somebody from a House send it to you, or were you sent  a complete set by the Tribal Council or just what?  I don't remember how I -- why it is I had some and not 11125  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 others.  I probably requested them.  2 Q   All right.  As you are probably aware, this affidavit  3 was sworn by Mr. Kenny Muldoe in January the 28th,  4 1987, and Mr. Tait had died about 10 days before, and  5 Mr. Muldoe said that he was satisfied that the answers  6 he gave would have been Mr. Tait's answers.  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And I direct your attention to page 2, paragraph 5,  9 where Mr. Muldoe says:  10  11 "I am swearing this affidavit based on Albert  12 Tait's answers.  I verily believe the answers  13 are true and they include in almost every case  14 answers of which I have been informed by  15 Albert Tait."  16  17 And then if you turn to page 36, which is the Delgam  18 Uukw House members.  That list, of course, indicates  19 that Mr. Albert Tait was a member of the House, Delgam  20 Uukw, and indeed the genealogy which you prepared  21 explicitly states that, and your evidence is that he  22 was -- he was adopted into that House from the House  23 of what?  24 A  Ax Gigii.  25 Q   In fact was he adopted into the House of Ax Gigii?  26 A   I didn't put it that way.  I said that his -- maybe I  27 did.  When Albert Tait took the name Delgam Uukw, it  28 affected the amalgamation of the two Houses, I  29 believe, is the way I put it.  30 Q   All right.  But I was under the impression when I  31 looked at the -- at the genealogy, that he was born,  32 of course, into the House of Ax Gigii.  Now, this  33 House list attached to Mr. Tait's or Mr. Muldoe's  34 affidavit, it, of course, does not include Ralph  35 Wesley, and that might indicate that, as far as was  36 known at the time, Mr. Wesley was dead?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   It doesn't include any of the people on the right-hand  39 side of the genealogy, does it, and there are some  40 living people there, are there not?  41 MR. GRANT:  Pages eight or pages seven and eight?  42 MR. GOLDIE:  43 Q   When I say the right-hand side, I mean other than the  44 pages which show the members who were -- members of  45 the House of Ax Gigii.  I am talking about pages seven  46 and eight.  47 A   Right.  Certainly all of the people on page eight are 11126  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  1  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  15  Q  16  A  17  18  1  19  1  20  21  Q  22  i  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  A  36  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  Q  43  THE COURT:  44  MR. GOLDIE  45  THE COURT:  46  MR. GOLDIE  47  THE COURT:  dead.  Right.  And I don't know if Bramwell Wales is still alive.  You note that Cora Morrison was adopted out?  Yes.  But you don't know about her brother?  No, I don't know if Bramwell Wales is.  Did you make any inquiries?  I didn't concentrate on it, no.  But if the matrilineal line of inheritance had been  followed, wouldn't Mr. Wales succeed to the head of  Hagee, H-A-G double E?  Not necessarily, because, as I say, it doesn't  strictly go by biological determination and --  I appreciate that.  And I believe if he is alive or he was alive, he lived  in Vancouver for many years, as did his brother  Geoffrey, which the chief would -- it would be very  difficult for someone to hold up the chief's name if  they had lived away for many years.  Uh-huh.  But my question to you was that if the  matrilineal form of inheritance had been followed, he  would have been the logical man?  If that was the only criteria.  Because he was the chief's sister's son?  You are talking about Hagee?  Yes.  Yes, that would be so.  And so far as you know, there was nothing to stop him  from adopting and prolonging the House line that way?  Except for the fact that he was not involved in the  feast system.  That's the conclusion that you have reached from the  fact that he lived in Vancouver?  Yes, and that he never did come to Kispiox and  contribute to feasts and so on.  Is that what you were told?  Yes.  Now, the name Hagee was in fact -- was in fact taken  by Ray Mowatt?  Yes.  That's on page three of the --  Hagee --  :   And there is no logical connection --  I'm sorry, Hagee is a name in Delgam Uukw?  :  It's on page three of the Delgam Uukw.  Yes.  Thank you. 11127  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 MR. GOLDIE:  2 Q   There is no biological connection between Mr. Mowatt,  3 Ray Mowatt, and the House of Hagee, is there?  4 A   No.  5 THE COURT:  With the House of Hagee.  6 MR. GOLDIE:  7 Q   Well, there was a separate House of Hagee, was there  8 not?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And -- so Mr. Bramwell Wale was the last surviving  11 member of that House?  12 A   I don't know at what point Hagee and -- amalgamated,  13 so I don't know if the people represented here were  14 from the original biological House of Hagee, or if  15 they in fact were the biological relatives of Delgam  16 Uukw's House, because I don't know at what point that  17 amalgamation took place.  18 Q   Didn't the amalgamation, as far as the genealogy chart  19 is indicated, take place when Mr. Mowatt took the  2 0 name?  21 A   Not necessarily so.  22 Q   Well, your chart, you have been unable to find any  23 biological connection with the House either of Delgam  24 Uukw or of Ax Gigii?  25 A   Right.  26 Q   Right.  But there is an amalgamation effected by Mr.  27 Ray Mowatt taking the name of Hagee, is there not, it  28 becomes a name in the House of Delgam Uukw?  2 9 A   Hagee and Ax Gigii and Delgam Uukw become the same  30 House at various points in their history, in that they  31 become amalgamated.  32 Q   This point in their history?  33 A   Not necessarily, no.  34 Q   Well, can you tell me in what way Hagee -- the House  35 of Hagee survives as an independent House?  36 A   It doesn't.  37 Q   No, it's parts of the House of --  38 A   Right, but it could have been amalgamated at a time  39 previous to Ray Mowatt taking a name, because I don't  40 know if this group of people on page seven were the  41 biological relatives of Delgam Uukw from an earlier  42 time, or if they were members of the original House of  43 Hagee.  44 Q   Yes.  Well, that is your speculation at this time, but  45 my question to you is if there ever was any doubt, it  46 is resolved when Mr. Mowatt took the name, and Hagee  47 clearly is now amalgamated with Delgam Uukw? 1112?  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   That is correct.  2 Q   Right.  So that the name, regalia and crests and  3 resources of the House of Hagee is now clearly part of  4 the House of Delgam Uukw?  5 A  And Ax Gigii and Hagee.  6 Q   Well —  7 A   They are not -- they don't disappear.  They are not  8 totally subsumed by Delgam Uukw.  He is a higher  9 ranked chief among them of the three, but they still  10 continue to have somewhat of a separate existence,  11 even though they become one biological family.  12 Q   Well, they become one family, but there is no  13 biological representative of the old House of Delgam  14 Uukw or of the House of Hagee?  15 A   That's correct.  16 Q   Yes.  100 percent of the members of the House of  17 Delgam Uukw now consists of biologically related  18 members of the House of Ax Gigii?  19 A   That is correct.  20 Q   I said biologically related.  That is not correct  21 because of the adoption of Lottie Harris?  22 A   Yes, okay.  23 Q   Which took place when the House was Ax Gigii?  24 A   Yes, when Lottie was a small child.  25 Q   Should we add the name of Hagee to footnote 14 as an  26 example of an amalgamation?  Perhaps you would like to  27 look at 14 there.  28 A   There have been -- these are amalgamations in very  29 recent times that I will refer to in that footnote.  30 There have been other amalgamations in the history of  31 the Gitksan, and I haven't noted those throughout all  32 of history.  33 Q   Well, the reason I suggested that you should perhaps  34 add it to footnote 14 is that there is clearly an  35 amalgamation, if there wasn't one before, when Mr. Ray  36 Mowatt became a name in the House of Delgam Uukw,  37 holding the name Hagee.  38 A   But if there was one before, then it shouldn't be  39 included on this list, and I don't know if that was so  40 or not.  41 Q   But not knowing it, we do know there is an  42 amalgamation of the Houses now, don't we?  43 A  As I say, at some point in history, but we don't know  44 when that point was.  45 Q   Well, would you not agree that in modern terms the  46 House of Ax Gigii has taken over the Houses of Delgam  47 Uukw and Hagee? 11129  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   No.  2 Q   It's hardly an amalgamation when no members of either  3 the House of Delgam Uukw or the House of Hagee is  4 represented in the amalgamated House, is it?  5 A   The small remnant of what you are calling the House of  6 Hagee on page seven, I have never claimed that those  7 people made up the House of Hagee.  It might have been  8 more appropriate to put them in between the first and  9 second lineages represented on the genealogy, because  10 they may have been the biological relatives or one --  11 or of one or the other of those groups, if they in  12 fact represented an earlier amalgamation, but I don't  13 know if that is so.  14 Q   Well, I appreciate you don't know that it is so, and  15 all we can go on is the conclusion that you reached as  16 represented by the chart.  That was your best  17 conclusion, was it not?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Yes.  And that conclusion tells us that if Hagee was a  20 separate House, and its been claimed that it is a  21 separate House, it ceased to be a separate House when  22 Mr. Ray Mowatt took the title?  23 A   Houses don't cease to exist when they amalgamate.  A  24 separate accounting is still kept of the House  25 properties, and in the future they could reconstitute  26 themselves.  27 Q   In your terms, though, when an amalgamation has taken  28 place?  29 A   I would say so.  30 Q   Yes.  All right.  That's all that I meant when I say  31 we should perhaps add the name Hagee to the footnote  32 14.  33 Now, is it correct to describe Ray Mowatt and Ken  34 Muldoe as brothers in the Gitksan terminology?  35 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Ken Muldoe and who?  36 MR. GOLDIE:  Ray Mowatt, who is Hagee on page three, and Ken  37 Muldoe, who is Delgam Uukw on page 4.  38 Q   My question to you:  Is it correct in the Gitksan  39 terminology to describe them as brothers?  40 A  Are you saying would Ken say Ray is my brother?  41 Q   And vice versa.  42 A   No, not -- well, they could use that, in that people  43 might say brothers to include any member of the same  44 clan, but more ordinarily they would refer to each  45 other as uncle and nephew.  46 Q   I see.  Even though there is no biological connection?  47 A   There is no biological connection between Ray and 11130  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Mowatt and -- Lottie Harris is a mother of Ken Muldoe.  2 Q   Right.  3 A  And Lottie's daughter Sadie is the mother of Ray  4 Mowatt.  Sadie Morice and Mowatt is the half sister,  5 same mother, different fathers, to Ken, so in fact Ken  6 is the uncle, even in English terms, to Ray.  7 Q   Right.  Thank you.  But I go back to my first  8 question.  Is it -- would it be appropriate in the  9 Gitksan tongue for the word brother to be used in a  10 relation either one to the other?  11 A   Only using brother in the more expansive usage.  12 Ordinarily they would say uncle and nephew.  13 Q   All right.  Thank you.  14 THE COURT:  Lottie Harris is shown as Ax Gigii born 1912 in the  15 House of Luus.  16 THE WITNESS:  She was born in the House of Luus, the Wolf Clan,  17 and her father was Ax Gigii, and the House was nearly  18 extinct, so he adopted his daughter into the House of  19 Ax Gigii, and she even fully took the name.  20 THE COURT:  And was she then adopted again into the House of  21 Delgam Uukw?  22 THE WITNESS:  I wouldn't put it that way.  I would say that they  23 were -- the Houses amalgamated.  24 THE COURT:  Oh, I see.  All right.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  26 Q   Were you involved in identifying the Houses that were  27 the plaintiffs when the Writ was issued in October,  28 1984?  29 A   No, I wasn't.  30 Q   Your work had then been underway about six months?  31 A   '84 did you say?  32 Q   Yes.  33 A   Yes, that would be true.  34 Q   Were you aware at the time that there were more  35 Gitksan Houses than were listed in the Statement of  36 Claim, or was that a matter of interest to you?  37 A   No, I wasn't aware of what was on the Statement of  38 Claim.  39 Q   All right.  Now, again referring you to the sentence  40 on your report on page 63 that we have noted earlier.  41 The last sentence in the first paragraph where you  42 say:  43  44 "Possible permeatations are numerous, but  45 always within the rules of matrilineal  46 inheritance, only House members inherit the  47 chiefs' name except in the case of a House 11131  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  which is virtually extinct."  And you have explained that you regard the exception  as really a second rule?  A   Yes.  Q   Now, one of the exceptions that you refer to is  Spookw.  That's indicated on page 99 of your report,  is that correct?  A   Yes.  Q   And you say:  "When the last Spookw, Johnson Alexander died,  none of the members of the House of Spookw  were ready to take the name, so Steve Robinson  of the House of Guuhadak took it.  Spookw and  Guuhadak are both Gitanmaax, Lax Gibuu  Houses."  And you say there that Mr. Robinson took the name,  and as your genealogy, which is up on that wall over  there, running from some 1 to 34 pages, there is no  biological connection between Mr. Robinson and any  member of the House of Spookw?  A  What genealogy is that?  Q   Spookw.  A   That's Spookw?  Q   Yes.  A  What was the question again?  Q   There was no biological connection between Mr.  Robinson, the present holder of the name, and any  member of the House of Spookw?  A   That's correct.  Q   Right.  It's my understanding that Mr. Robinson holds  three names.  Is that yours?  A   I don't know.  Q   Well —  THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie, were you seeking to mark this tab three?  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  Thank you, My Lord.  I will tender that as  860-3.  (EXHIBIT NO. 860-3 - TAB 3 OF BLUE BOOK -  AFFIDAVIT OF KENNY MULDOE)  MR. GRANT:  Is tab two already marked?  THE COURT:  Yes, it was.  There were four pages to this.  MR. GOLDIE:  Q   Is it right that Mr. Robinson remains a member of the 11132  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 House of Guuhadak, that's G-U-U-H-A-D-A-K, while  2 holding the name Spookw?  3 A   Yes, I would -- I believe it -- that's true.  4 Q   Ms. Sigurdson may have possibly over-extended.  In  5 your genealogy would you consult page one, please, of  6 Spookw.  7 THE COURT:  Do you know the tab number, Mr. Goldie?  8 THE REGISTRAR:  It's tab number 35, My Lord.  9 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you.  10 Q   Now, Mr. Robinson is shown on page one unconnected  11 with any member of the House?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And you have done that in order to show that there is  14 no biological connection?  15 A   That's correct.  16 Q   And he is shown as holding the three names there; is  17 that not correct?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   One of them is Spookw, another -- which is the second  20 name?  What House is that?  21 A  Mediig'mguamk.  22 Q   Right.  And the third name?  23 A   Guuhadak.  24 Q   And he holds the House name of two Houses?  25 A   Yes.  2 6 THE COURT:  Which House is Mediig'mguamk?  27 THE WITNESS:   Yagosip.  2 8 MR. GOLDI:E  29 Q   How can he hold the name Spookw unless he is adopted  30 into that House?  31 A   The situation at the time that the old Spookw died was  32 that the biological members of the House of Spookw  33 were mostly young or, I believe, some of them lived in  34 distant villages, and so were not involved in the  35 feast system.  And I don't know who took the decision,  36 but it was decided at that time that Steve Robinson,  37 who was from a closely related House, would take the  3 8 name.  39 Q   Well, Spookw has a substantial number of members who  40 were Wet'suwet'en, is that correct?  41 A   No.  42 Q   Well, people who, shall I put it this way, turn up as  43 claiming to be Wet'suwet'en?  44 A   Some of the young people are unaware of the -- how the  45 system works, and they might think that they are  46 Wet'suwet'en, because they live in a Wet'suwet'en  47 village. 11133  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   And quite a number of them live in Burns Lake?  2 A   That's correct.  3 Q   Would you look at page 23 of your genealogy.  4 THE COURT:  Does it have Sophie Isaac as the first name on the  5 page?  My page numbers are --  6 MR. GOLDIE:  The page numbers appear to be --  7 MS. KOENIGSBERG: We can all see 24 on the next page —  8 THE COURT:  So I suggest that Sophie Isaac might be the first  9 name on page 23, if that's correct.  10 MS. SIGURDSON: That's correct.  11 MR. GRANT:  Maybe you can just check, My Lord.  Well, if that's  12 the page --  13 MR. GOLDIE:  14 Q   It's one back from 24, which has a wild kind of logic  15 to it, and on that you will see a marriage between  16 Sophie Isaac and Mitch Ogen, O-G-E-N.  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   That lady is a chief in the Wet'suwet'en, is she, in  19 the Carrier-Sekani?  20 MR. GRANT:  Is my friend referring to hereditary, elected or  21 both —  22 MR. GOLDIE:  Whatever she cares to qualify it.  23 Q   She is a chief, is she not?  24 A   I have no idea.  25 Q   Do you know where she lives?  26 A   No, I don't.  27 Q   Would you not -- I believe you agreed with me that  28 the -- a large number of these people live in Burns  29 Lake?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And regard themselves as Wet'suwet'en?  32 A   They could.  I don't know.  33 Q   All you have done is followed what you consider to be  34 a matrilineal line?  35 A   These are the members of the House of Spookw.  36 Q   Yes.  Pursuing a matrilineal line?  37 A   This is not just my opinion.  This information came  38 from members of the House of Spookw.  39 Q   Which you accepted without question?  40 A  After having asked several people, yes.  41 Q   Uh-huh.  Would you not agree with me that -- or do you  42 know whether any of the people on this chart attended  43 feasts -- attend feasts held by the Wet'suwet'en?  44 A   I personally don't have knowledge of that.  45 Q   Well, I thought you said a few minutes ago that one of  46 the reasons why Mr. Robinson took the name Spookw was  47 that the surviving members were young and weren't in 11134  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 the feast system.  2 A   Of the Gitksan.  3 Q   Yes.  4 A   Of Gitanmaax village was what I was referring to.  5 Q   And that is your -- that's knowledge that you obtained  6 from people who are members of the House of Spookw?  7 A   That's correct.  8 Q   Did you speak to any of the Burns Lake members?  9 A   No, I didn't.  10 Q   Why not?  11 A   Because I spoke to close relatives who live in  12 Hagwilget.  13 Q   Well, is there anything closer than -- in the  14 matrilineal line than, for instance, Sophie Ogen?  15 MR. GRANT:  Possibly the witness can look at the chart on the  16 board -- on the wall.  17 MR. GOLDIE:  If you wish to, yes.  18 MR. GRANT:  Before she answers that —  19 THE WITNESS:   What was the question?  20 MR. GOLDIE:  21 Q   Well, I was asking you to indicate to me who was  22 closer in the matrilineal line, the biological line,  23 than, for instance, Sophie Ogen and her mother.  24 A   Closer to who?  25 Q   Johnson Alexander.  2 6 THE COURT:  Where do you find Johnson Alexander, Mr. Goldie?  27 MR. GOLDIE:  That's over on page one, I believe, My Lord, and  28 that is the -- was the last surviving Spookw who was  29 biologically connected.  30 MR. GRANT:  Johnson is on page 14.  31 MR. GOLDIE:  Oh, page 14 my friend tells me.  32 MR. GRANT:  My Lord, I just note that it appears -- when one  33 looks at this chart -- appears as my copy.  The  34 original exhibit which was filed would have a page 21  35 and 22.  It appears here that there is a page missing,  36 which I will investigate, because page 21 is repeated  37 here on this chart that my friend has drawn on the  38 board.  39 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, we got that from what we were given.  40 MR. GRANT:  I understand.  I appreciate what you're saying.  I  41 am just saying the original exhibit, a copy of the  42 original exhibit appears that the photocopy slipped on  43 page 22.  The original exhibit is 315, My Lord, for  44 the record.  45 THE COURT:  Madam Register, do we have it handy?  46 THE REGISTRAR:  315?  47 MR. GRANT:  Exhibit 315. 11135  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 MR. GOLDIE:  2 Q   Well, if there is a page missing, we should perhaps  3 leave that.  But the question that I am putting to  4 you, Mrs. Harris, is there not direct biological links  5 between Johnson Alexander and a substantial number of  6 living people?  7 A   That's correct.  But it was explained to me that at  8 the time none of them were ready to take the name.  9 Q   Who explained that to you?  10 A   I believe I heard it from Dora Wilson-Kenni and from  11 Steve Robinson, possibly others.  12 Q   Well, could we -- could I put it this way.  Is this a  13 fair way of putting it, that the living relatives in  14 the biological sense of Mr. Johnson Alexander appear  15 to be primarily Wet'suwet'en, who are not involved in  16 the Gitksan feast system?  17 A   They are not -- I don't know if it's appropriate to  18 say that they are Wet'suwet'en.  19 Q   Well, if you accept the proposition that they are  20 holding themselves out as Wet'suwet'en, would you  21 agree with my question as put to you?  22 A   I don't know what holding themselves as Wet'suwet'en  23 means.  24 Q   All right.  Let me put it in terms that perhaps you  25 can agree with.  That if they are matrilineally  26 Gitksan, they are not involved in the Gitksan feast  27 system?  28 A   If they are matrilineally --  29 Q   If they are matrilineally Gitksan.  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   They are not involved in the Gitksan feast system?  32 A  What's one got to do with the other?  I don't  33 understand that.  34 Q   Well, I am suggesting to you --  35 A   Oh, I think I understand what you're saying.  One  36 isn't related to the other.  It may have occurred by  37 coincidence, but it seems misleading to connect them  38 like that.  I don't know which ones of them are or are  39 not involved in the Gitksan feast system.  I just know  40 that I was told on more than one occasion that the  41 reason Steve Robinson took the name was because at the  42 time that Johnson Alexander died, most of those people  43 represented on that genealogy were either not born or  44 were children, and that some of the others lived away.  45 Q   Living away, meaning Burns Lake?  46 A   Burns Lake and among other places.  I don't know where  47 each one of them lives. 11136  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  Q   Well, Burns Lake is much closer than Prince Rupert,  isn't it?  A   Not -- a lot closer.  MR. GRANT:  That's not necessarily true.  MR. GOLDIE:  Q   I am not talking about metaphysically, I am talking  about in miles.  No, I don't think it's much farther than Prince  Rupert.  Prince Rupert is -- I'll put it this way -- slightly  farther away than Burns Lake?  Slightly father away.  And Joan Ryan is a hereditary chief who lives in  Prince Rupert?  And travels on a regular basis up to Gitsegeukla to  attend feasts.  Yes.  Now, Johnson Alexander appears  1971.  That's according to page 14.  A  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  to have died in  Is that right?  Yes.  I see  1901,  a number of names here who are people born in  died in 1966, people born in 1943.  Did you  satisfy yourself that indeed all of these people were  children or not otherwise involved?  No, I didn't investigate every -- the situation of  every single one of those people.  Two of the people on this chart were your informants  or included amongst your informants.  Roy Morris?  I didn't personally interview Roy Morris.  How about Rita George?  I interviewed Rita.  Yes.  You have her listed as a member of the House of  Spookw?  Yes.  How old a woman is she?  About 40 I would say.  And she has been adopted out to the House of Gisdaywa?  I don't recall.  Well, that's what your chart says.  Well, I don't recall.  There is several thousand  people on the charts.  I am not being critical of you.  I am suggesting you  look at page 25.  Yes.  Do you say this is a case of a Gitksan being adopted  out to a Wet'suwet'en House?  Yes, I would say it was.  Yes.  Does that rule her out as -- or I shouldn't say 11137  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  A  4  5  Q  6  A  7  8  Q  9  10  11  12  A  13  14  15  16  Q  17  18  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  26  27  Q  28  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  THE COURT  rule her out.  Does she cease, then, to be a  biologically connected relative of Johnson Alexander?  Nothing can stop her from being a biologically  connected relative of Johnson Alexander.  I am talking about Gitksan law.  We are talking about a social relative here, not a  biological relative.  Well -- my question to you was:  Because she has been  adopted out of the Gitksan to the Wet'suwet'en, does  that have any effect on her relationship with Johnson  Alexander?  It's kind of an unusual way to put it.  She has become  a member of a Wet'suwet'en House, if that's what you  are after, but she was born a member of a Gitksan  House.  Yes.  Now, what consequence is there, from the  standpoint of your genealogical researches, to her  ceasing to be a Gitksan and becoming a Wet'suwet'en?  What consequences?  Yes.  That she has become a member of a Wet'suwet'en House.  And does she thereby lose any right to become a chief  in the Gitksan House?  Ordinarily she would -- if she's adopted into a  Wet'suwet'en House, she would function within that  House.  Yes.  And cease to function in the House from which  she was adopted?  Sometimes people continue to function in the House  they were adopted from as well to contribute to their  feasts and so on, but that would depend on the  individual situation, and I don't know exactly her  situation.  Although she was one of your informants?  Yes.  In what respect was she an informant?  She told me who her children were and her brothers and  sisters and their children and so on, but I didn't ask  her which feasts she contributed to and which ones she  doesn't.  Uh-huh.  And are her children on your chart?  Yes, they are.  Would they not belong to the House in which their  mother is adopted?  This adoption came at a later date.  I see.  :  One of her children is? 1113?  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  2 MR. GOLDIE:  Now — well, I will look at this on the break, My  3 Lord, to see if this page makes any difference.  4 MR. GRANT:  I'll photocopy this.  I pulled my copy of Exhibit  5 350, and it appears that there is a 22 and 22A, and  6 22A just has lines on it, and I'll arrange for copies  7 for Your Lordship.  8 MR. GOLDIE:  9 Q   Now, you told His Lordship a minute ago that Mr.  10 Robinson also holds a chief's name in Yagosip; is that  11 correct?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Would you look at tab 12.  That's the chart of  14 Yagosip.  Do I read this correctly that there are  15 three lineages on that chart without a biological  16 connection?  17 THE COURT:  Without each other you mean.  18 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  19 Q   No connection one with the other?  20 A   Yes, that's correct.  21 Q   And the last holder of the name of Yagosip in the  22 lineage on page one and two is Mary Simpson?  23 A   Yes, I believe that's correct.  24 Q   And the current holder of that name is Joyce Robinson  25 or Turner?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And she is in the next lineage -- no, I'm sorry, the  28 next lineage on pages three and four, that too is  29 extinct?  30 A   Yes, that's correct.  31 Q   All right.  Well, then, the next -- the last lineage,  32 which begins on four on page eight, we find Joyce  33 Robinson, and she is the current holder of the name  34 Yagosip?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Now, Thomas Wright, going back to the lineage which is  37 on three and four and which is now extinct, the last  38 holder of that name was Thomas Wright?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And he was adopted into the House of Guuhadak?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And that name is now vacant?  43 A   Yes, that's correct.  44 Q   Now, you show no connection between Yagosip and  45 Guuhadak?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Am I right that there was such a suggestion made to 11139  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 you that there was one?  2 A   I don't know what you mean.  3 Q   Well, would you look at the blue book under tab 4.  4 Whose handwriting is that, please?  5 A   I believe that's Neil Sterritt's.  6 Q   But when you put:  7  8 "Assimilated on names list",  9  10 That's your handwriting?  11 A   Yes, it is.  12 Q   And that means you have made use of that information  13 on that list?  14 A   Of the names anyways.  15 Q   Uh-huh.  On the bottom right-hand corner you say:  16  17 "Thomas Wright's mother was sister to  18 Steve's mother's mother?"  19  20 A   That's what Neil wrote.  21 Q   Yes.  You didn't accept that suggestion?  22 A   No.  I eventually decided that wasn't correct.  23 Q   Over on page 20 at the top.  Is that a drawing of that  24 suggestion that Mr. Sterritt wrote down?  25 A  26 "Thomas Wright's mother was sister to  27 Steve's ..."  28  29 Q   And you say, and if this isn't your handwriting, tell  3 0 me s o:  31  32 "I don't think this is correct because Thomas  33 says his mother only had one sibling, David."  34  35 A   Daniel.  Daniel Wii Kaax.  Yes, that's correct.  36 Q   So on that basis you decided there was no biological  37 connection that you could discern between Yagosip and  38 Guuhadak?  39 A   That's correct.  40 Q   Now, whatever the connection, Steve Robinson now holds  41 the highest name in Spookw, although not on any  42 matralineal basis?  43 A   That's correct.  44 Q   And he appears also to hold the name of Guuhadak in  45 another House?  46 A   Yes, that's the House he was born in.  That name is  47 being held open.  He is not using the name. 11140  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Well, he's the caretaker of it, is he not?  2 A   You could put it that way.  3 Q   Well, doesn't he put it that way?  4 A   Could be.  I'm not sure how he phrases it.  What I  5 usually use for that kind of -- not using the name,  6 but just reserving it.  I call held open.  7 Q   But it's different from the name being vacant, isn't  8 it?  9 A   No, it isn't.  10 Q   Well, what is the distinction, then, between Mr.  11 Robinson being the caretaker of Guuhadak and the name  12 Guuhadak being vacant?  13 A   In that the name is not being used by him, he doesn't  14 sit in Guuhadak's seat in the feast, I believe, and  15 that the name is held open, and he or somebody else  16 will take it at a later time.  17 Q   All right.  And he claims that he holds a name in the  18 House of Yagosip?  19 A   Yes.  I believe Yagosip and Guuhadak are amalgamated.  20 They had separate origins and they amalgamated it some  21 time in the past.  22 Q   You don't show any link like that on your chart,  23 though.  24 A  Which chart?  25 Q   Well —  26 A   On the genealogy chart.  27 Q   You have -- you have a label, "Guuhadak/Yagosip", and  28 my question should have been:  There is no biological  29 link shown between Guuhadak and Yagosip on your chart?  30 A   That's correct.  31 Q   Doesn't the result of this place under Mr. Robinson's  32 care the resources regalia of something like three  33 Houses?  34 A  Well, Guuhadak and Yagosip are one House now, and  35 because of the fact that they were two Houses and  36 Yagosip and Guuhadak are both high chiefs, Joyce  37 Turner would probably -- who is Yagosip, would  38 probably take many of the responsibilities of the care  39 of Yagosip's House, and Steve Robinson certainly may  40 have input into the responsibilities of that House, as  41 well as the House of Spookw.  42 Q   I'm referring to the transcript, volume 153 under tab  43 5, My Lord.  Page 9797.  Do you see that?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   Mr. Robinson was being cross-examined by Mr. MacKenzie  46 at line 4:  47 11141  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 "Q   Just finally on the genealogy, you've said  2 that you're a member of the House of  3 Spookw, correct?  You are a member of the  4 House of Spookw?  5 A   Through the genealogy?"  6  7 And then he was asked again about holding the name  8 Spookw, and at line 32:  9  10 "Q   When you say you're holding the name  11 Spookw, you mean that you are taking care  12 of the name Spookw?  13 A   Not taking care, I am Spookw."  14  15 And that's what you have shown on your genealogy?  16 A   Right.  17 Q   And was Mr. Robinson adopted into that House?  18 A   I don't know if he would put it that way, because when  19 you say someone is adopted into the House, it usually  20 refers to a member of the House saying that this  21 person should take my name when I die, or living  22 members saying we are going to adopt this person into  23 the House, but I believe that the situation with Mr.  24 Robinson was that it was made possible among some  25 members of the House of Spookw and other Wolf Clan  26 chiefs.  27 Q   Well, the simple point is that Mr. Robinson is the  28 holder of the name of Spookw, but he's neither adopted  29 into that House nor was he born into it.  30 A   That's just a matter of how you look at it.  31 Q   Well —  32 A   You could say he was adopted into the House of Spookw,  33 but it's not a very appropriate way to put it, if the  34 decision was not -- the decision -- the decision was  35 made by the chiefs who were concerned, who would be  36 members of the Wilnadaahl at that time, and this was  37 their decision, and whether you call it an adoption or  38 whatever you want to call it, that was their decision.  39 And you -- I suppose you could call it an adoption,  40 but I haven't heard to it referred that way in the  41 case of Mr. Robinson.  42 Q   Nor have you depicted it?  43 A   No, I haven't, because I haven't heard it referred to  44 in that manner, but that was a decision taken by the  45 Wilnadaahl, as in the name of the inher -- or the  46 inheritance of a chief's name usually is.  47 Q   The simple fact is that Mr. Robinson, who is neither 11142  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 biologically connected to the House of Spookw, nor has  2 he been adopted into the House of Spookw, is the head  3 of the House?  4 A  Well, I might say, then, that he is adopted, because  5 the situation is similar to a person who would be  6 adopted.  It's just a matter of the way you put it.  7 Q   Well, I am suggesting to you that there -- that  8 whatever the rule was, in this case Mr. Robinson does  9 not regard himself as being in the House of Spookw.  10 A   I believe he does regard himself to be --  11 Q   Well, he is the holder of the name and he exercises  12 the power, is that correct?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Well, he was asked this question at page 9797:  15  16 "Q   So the true answer is that your  17 grandchildren have been adopted into  18 Yagosip?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   Yes.  And so if someone were to say that  21 you're a member of a House because your  22 mother was a member of the House, that's  23 incorrect in your case?  24 A  Which House?  25 Q   The House of Spookw.  2 6 A  My mother was a member of the Guuhadak's  27 House.  28 Q   So your mother was never in Spookw's, was  29 she?  3 0 A   No."  31  32 MR. GRANT:  Well, My Lord, immediately after the adjournment the  33 very question that my friend is now putting to this  34 witness was raised at line 22 to 25, and that's  35 referred to in the preceding page about whether or not  36 at lines eight through to ten he was asked directly if  37 he was a member of the House of Spookw on both  38 occasions, and he said yes.  39 MR. GOLDIE:  40 Q   I know he says that, but he's not been adopted into  41 it, and he wasn't born into it, so by -- so far as the  42 rules that you are aware of, he's not a member of the  43 House of Spookw, is he?  44 A   No.  No, I am disagreeing with what you're saying.  I  45 think he is a member of the House of Spookw.  This is  46 an unique situation.  This is -- although not totally  47 unique, but this is not a common kind of situation, 11143  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 but that doesn't mean it's illegitimate.  If the  2 chiefs of the Wilnadaahl decide that this is going to  3 be the way it is, then that's the way it becomes.  4 They have a set of rules that they try to follow, but  5 there can be unusual circumstances, such as many of  6 the members being young, many living away, not  7 involved in the feast, whatever the situation might  8 be, and that's a decision made by the Wilnadaahl  9 following the ordinary rules as far as is possible.  10 They chose the person they deemed the most appropriate  11 person to take the name Spookw.  No single individual  12 can do this on his own.  It's not possible.  13 Q   Well, isn't it a case that Mr. Robinson is accepted by  14 you in your genealogy as a member of the House of  15 Spookw because that's what he says he is?  16 A   That's what all of the chiefs acknowledge him as, not  17 just because he said it.  18 Q   Well -- but so far as anything you can find, he is  19 Spookw because he says he is Spookw and others say he  20 is Spookw?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And you say this may be a unique situation?  23 A  A fairly unique situation.  I'm not saying it's  24 absolutely unique.  25 Q   And by fairly unique, you mean a situation where one  26 person appears to have membership in more than one  27 House?  28 A   Yes, you could put it that way.  29 Q   And he also claims a place in the House of Wii Kaax,  30 is that not correct?  31 A   Not that I know of.  He claims descent from the House  32 of Wii Kaax, in that his mother was born in the House  33 of Wii Kaax and was adopted into the House of Guuhadak  34 and Yagosip, because it was short of members.  35 THE COURT:  You say his mother was a member of Guuhadak's House,  36 not Wii Kaax?  37 THE WITNESS:   She was born in the House of Wii Kaax, but she  38 was adopted into Guuhadak and Yagosip's House.  39 MR. GOLDIE:  40 Q   But Mr. Robinson wasn't, was he?  41 A   But his mother was before he was born, as far as I  42 know.  43 Q   So that makes him a member of the House of Guuhadak?  44 A   Yes, that's correct.  45 Q   All right.  Now, he says, and I am referring to page  46 9797, line 44:  47 11144  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  "Q   And you are a member of that House?  A   Through the genealogy, yes."  Would you accept his assertion that he is a member  of the House through the genealogy?  A   If by that he means biologically.  Q   Uh-huh.  A   Because socially he doesn't act as a member of the  House of Wii Kaax.  Q   But that's the only House that he appears to have a  biological relationship to?  A   That's correct.  Q   All right.  THE COURT:  Take the afternoon adjournment, Mr. Goldie?  MR. GOLDIE:  Right.  Thank you, My Lord.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court will recess.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR A SHORT RECESS)  I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO  BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT  OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE  BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY.  LORI OXLEY  OFFICIAL REPORTER  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 11145  H. Harris (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 11145  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A SHORT ADJOURNMENT)  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie.  MR. GRANT:  Thank you, my lord.  Just to clarify, I had those pages copied and  right after page 21 of the Spookxw genealogy at Tab  35, which has just at the top right-hand side "Burns  Lake, Tom Michell" and at the bottom right-hand side  "Juanita", that's page 21.  It should be inserted page  22, which has the name Andrew Isaac on the left side  and Henry on the right side.  And then there's a page  22A, which is effectively just transmission lines  through with spaces for children.  COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  GRANT:  And I'll have a copy for you.  COURT:  What did you say?  Something about Burns Lake?  GRANT:  Yes.  There's a Burns Lake.  On page 21, my lord, is  a Burns Lake, Tom Michell.  Do you have that?  COURT:  Yes.  All right.  GRANT:  Now, probably you have two page 21's if it was  copied as mine was, one right ahead of it.  COURT:  Oh.  I have that.  GRANT:  If so, I just ask that you delete that.  COURT:  Yes.  GRANT:  That could be deleted.  And I have provided those to  Madam Registrar.  This appears to be something that  happened in the photocopying process.  There's  certainly no amendment or instructions to amend  anything.  COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Goldie.  GOLDIE:  My lord, I should mark Tab 4, which are notes --  page -- the first page notes of Mr. Neil Sterritt,  assimulated in names list by Mrs. Harris, and the next  page is genealogical diagrams drawn by Mrs. Harris.  GRANT:  Well —  GOLDIE:  From her notes that is.  GRANT:  I'm not sure, if that's the case, whether those --  that diagram was drawn by her or by Mr. Sterritt.  And  I also would ask to reserve, as with earlier  documents, that this exhibit be marked for  identification, because it's part -- it appears to be  pages 19 and 20.  MR. GOLDIE:  Those are ours.  MR. GRANT:  Those are your numbers?  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  MR. GRANT:  I'd like to review the balance of the file to see if  it's part of a larger document, that's all.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR. 11146  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT:  All right.  Well, that document is furnished to you  by —  GOLDIE:  Yes.  It came out of the possession of the witness.  COURT:  All right.  It will be 860-4, 2 pages.  Are you  putting in Tab 5?  GOLDIE:  Tab 5 is just an extract from the trial.  COURT:  Probably doesn't need to be marked.  GOLDIE:  I wouldn't think so.  And I haven't come to Tab 6.  COURT:  Yes.  All right.  (EXHIBIT 860-4:  Tab 4, Handnotes of Neil Sterritt)  GOLDIE:  Q   Mrs. Harris, would you refer to footnote 7 of your  report on page 95?  And you say there that:  "The 10  Gitksan houses which are composed of a group of  unilineally related kin are", and then you list --  I believe we had a correction to that.  And what was the correction?  Mr. Grant?  He said it was with respect to living members only.  Yes.  There was an amendment made on that list.  A  Q  A  COURT:  GOLDIE:  WITNESS  GOLDIE:  Q  I don't have a note of that.  All I have -- the only  note I have is that only three are free of adoptions?  A   Yes.  Q   Am I correct on that?  A   Yes.  Q   Well, Miss Sigurdson can see what correction was made.  But I want to ask you what you mean by unilineally  related kin?  A   Ordinarily I mean a group of kin who are related  either through their mothers or through their fathers  and, of course, in the case of the Gitksan, I mean  through their mothers.  Q   Are you saying here a group of matrilineally related  kin?  A   Yes.  Although I don't quite understand how -- I don't  quite understand why this list was included in this  question.  I don't know how that happened, this  original list that we corrected.  Q   Well, perhaps the -- the other footnote 8 is the more  complete answer, because it contains some of the same  houses.  A   Yes.  This footnote 8, I believe this one is correct  in what it says.  These are houses that have one group  of unilineally related kin, but some of them have  additional members who are adopted. 11147  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   But which are the three houses which are free of  2 adoptions in respect of living members?  3 A   Let's see if I can recall.  4 Q   Well, perhaps you can inform yourself over the --  5 overnight.  Can we leave that with you?  6 A   I thought a note was made of it.  Didn't we make that  7 correction?  8 MR. GRANT:  There was some reference to it early one morning  9 last week and I'll check the reference, my lord.  10 MR. GOLDIE:  11 Q   Well, Miss Sigurdson has drawn my attention to  12 transcript Volume 170, page 10842, line 13.  And Mr.  13 Grant had just read to you the houses which are  14 comprised in footnote 7.  And you were asked at line  15 5:  16  17 Q   "Do you have any comment on that listing  18 of ten houses that you wish to explain  19 to the Court?  20 A   Yes, I do.  I am not quite sure how it  21 happened but I am afraid there has been  22 some included in there that don't fit  23 the definition given on page 22.  All of  24 those are consistent -- consist of a  25 group of unilineally related kin, but  2 6 some of them include adopted members on  27 top of the one lineage.  28 Q   Okay.  Can you indicate to the Court  29 which ones fit the definition, that is,  30 do not have adoptions included?  31 A   If I remember correctly, that would be  32 Dawamuxw, Hanamuxw, Amagyet, that's  33 three, Gwagl'lo and Delgamuukw, if you  34 consider all living persons."  35  36 Is that the distinction you wish to make?  37 A   That's sounds correct.  38 Q   All right.  Now, focusing our attention on Gwagl'lo,  39 you say in footnote 9:  "The houses which most  40 knowledgeable Gitksan would consider to be clearly  41 distinct units are", and Gwagl'lo is included in that  42 list being the last one?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And then in the next footnote you say amongst the --  45 those -- it's the same footnote.  "Those houses whose  46 memberships are fairly often misunderstood are" and  47 then third from the bottom you list a grouping of four 11148  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 houses, including -- how do you pronounce -- Duubisxw?  2 A   Duubisxw.  3 Q   Duubisxw?  4 A   Duubisxw.  5 Q   Thank you.  And when you say "fairly often  6 misunderstood", you mean fairly often misunderstood by  7 knowledgeable Gitksan?  8 A   No.  9 Q   Well, who are you talking about when you say "fairly  10 often misunderstood"?  11 A   That's a hard thing to quantify, because it would  12 depend -- people from the same village would be more  13 likely to understand the situation.  Elderly people  14 would be more likely to understand it and so on.  It's  15 a relative -- it was kind of a loose estimation on my  16 part about what would be commonly misunderstood and  17 what would be commonly clearly distinct houses.  18 Q   But we're talking about an understanding on the part  19 of the Gitksan?  2 0 A   Right.  21 Q   Yes.  Right.  And when you say "fairly often  22 misunderstood", you mean within the Gitksan it could  23 be fairly -- it would be fairly often misunderstood?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Right.  Now, I'm going to refer you to something, Tab  26 7, which is the cross-examination on his affidavit of  27 Mr. Ernest Hyzims.  Mr. Hyzims holds what name?  2 8 A   Gwagl'lo.  2 9 Q   Right.  And I want to refer you to some of the  30 questions and answers that he gave.  Line 9:  31  32 Q   "You hold the chief's name Gwagl'lo?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And you are the head chief of the house  35 of Gwagl'lo?  36 A   Yes."  37  38 And then he gives the clan and the village.  39  40 Q   "You also speak for the house of  41 Duubisxw?  42 A   Yes, all what is written on that page I  43 can understand all clan", and so on.  44 Q   Are you referring to your  45 interrogatories?"  46  47 And he suggests that's mine.  That's my handwriting. 11149  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 And then he was shown schedule 8 of the  2 interrogatories where he answered the question what  3 are the names, places of residence, ages and  4 occupations of the members of your house.  And he  5 identified that list.  Now, I'm just going to refer  6 you to Tab 8.  7 MR. GRANT:  Sorry.  Is that — is that where the reference  8 Exhibit 1, second page --  9 MR. GOLDIE:  10 Q   The interrogatory response, yes.  11 And I'm going to refer the witness to Tab 8, which  12 is the affidavit, and the answer to the question where  13 he lists the names, places of residence, ages and  14 occupations of his house.  And have you seen that  15 particular interrogatory response before?  16 A   I don't remember.  17 Q   All right.  And returning, please, to Tab 7.  And the  18 interpreter read some names to him and the witness  19 said yes and the interpreter read some further names.  20 The witness said yes to all of them.  That's all in  21 the same house.  22  23 Q   "And that's the house of Gwagl'lo?  24 A   Yeah.  25 Q   Is Evelyn Johnson who is the second to  26 last person on the list, is she the  27 person who holds the name of Duubisxw?  28 A   Yes.  When Wilfred Waiget died Evelyn  2 9 took over the name Duubisxw and Roddy  30 has the name Sanoss.  31 Q   Is Duubisxw a separate house from  32 Gwagl'lo?  33 A   The same -- the same house.  34 Q   They are the same house?  35 A  M'hm.  The same clan, the same tribe.  36 Q   Did Duubisxw and Gwagl'lo share the same  37 territory as well?  38 A   Yes.  It was Wilfred who went with me  39 when we went out to fight the people  4 0 when my Uncle Alec Brown died."  41 Q   Are these people on Schedule A of  42 Gwagl'lo and the house of Duubisxw?  43 A   Yes, all of them.  The rest of them --  44 he said his grandchildren, the rest are  45 on the end of the paper.  46 Q   Those are excluding Selma Milton and  47 Evelyn Johnson, the last names are your 11150  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 grandchildren?  2 A   Right there.  He said Evelyn and Selma  3 and Roddy are in with Duubisxw.  4 Q   All right."  5  6 And then there was some further questions.  But the  7 question -- the assertion by Mr. Hyzims that I wish to  8 draw your attention to was that Duubisxw and Gwagl'lo  9 are the same house.  That is not consistent with your  10 research, is it?  11 A   I wouldn't say they were the same house, but I would  12 say they were closely related and closely associated  13 and worked together.  14 Q   Yes.  But you have two separate genealogies, don't  15 you?  16 A   That's correct.  17 Q   And therefore your research is inconsistent with his  18 assertion that they are the same house?  19 A   I don't believe he understood what was being said.  I  20 believe he was correcting himself on line 5 when he  21 says -- or pardon me -- line 7 when he says "the same  22 clan, the same tribe".  23 Q   Yes.  24 A   I believe that's what he's trying to get across at  25 that point.  26 Q   But, Mrs. Harris, Evelyn Johnson is the present holder  27 of the name Duubisxw?  2 8 A   Right.  29 Q   And he has listed her as a member of his house, hasn't  30 he?  31 A   Yes.  I guess he has.  But I don't think that's what  32 he meant precisely.  33 Q   Well, we're talking about under Tab 8.  There's no  34 doubt in your mind that Evelyn Johnson, 66, of  35 Kitsegukla is the person that you show hold the name  36 of Duubisxw?  37 A   Yes.  That's correct.  38 Q   Right.  Mr. -- and are not the members of the House of  39 Duubisxw and Gwagl'lo in many cases the same people?  40 A   It's not that the members of the house don't know what  41 house they belong to.  Clearly someone with the  42 knowledge that Ernest Hyzims has knows what house who  43 belongs to.  Given more detailed questioning, he could  44 have clearly explained the relationship between the  45 two houses.  It's just that the houses are both very  46 low in members.  They're closely related and they ally  47 themselves in an effort to maintain their existence. 11151  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Well, that describes an amalgamation, apparently?  2 A   I would say the amalgamation is not complete with  3 these two and they are both hoping that their fortunes  4 will rise, their population will increase and that  5 they can continue to exist as separate houses.  But if  6 their fortunes do decline, it looks as if they are  7 moving towards an amalgamation.  8 Q   On what basis did you exclude Evelyn Johnson's name  9 from the genealogy from the House of Gwagl'lo when Mr.  10 Hyzims says she's a member of his house?  11 A   Because that's not what he means.  12 Q   Well, that's your speculation at this time?  13 A   Right.  14 Q   But what is the basis -- when you say "that's not what  15 he means", what is your basis for stating that?  16 A  As I said, he seems to be correcting himself on line 7  17 of page 3 when he said "The same clan, the same  18 tribe".  19 Q   Well, Mrs. Harris, I directed your attention to his  20 answer to the interrogatory, which is at a far  21 different date.  22 A   This is an elderly person who doesn't speak English  23 trying to understand a complicated situation and  24 express it.  25 Q   Did you understand what I said to you, that the answer  26 to the interrogatory is not made at the time of his  27 examination?  2 8 A   Right.  29 Q   Yes.  He answered the interrogatory on the 6th of  30 February, 1987 and the examination took place on the  31 15th of December, 1988.  He's remarkably consistent,  32 is he not, in asserting that Evelyn Johnson is a  33 member of his house?  34 A   The fact of the matter is that the houses are closely  35 related and this is a very difficult thing for someone  36 like Ernest Hyzims to express, and there would be no  37 doubt that he would clearly know who the members of  38 his house are as opposed to Duubisxw's house and what  39 the relationship is between those two houses.  40 Q   Yes.  And he said Evelyn Johnson is in his house?  41 A   In that situation, but --  42 Q   In what situation?  43 A   In both of these situations it seems.  But this is a  44 very difficult thing for him to deal with and he is --  45 I believe he's correcting himself when he's trying to  46 express there that they're the same clan but not in  47 fact the same house. 11152  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   He didn't correct the interrogatory response, did he?  2 A   I don't know; not that I know of.  3 Q   No.  On what basis do you question the word of a  4 chief?  5 A   I believe you're reading into these answers something  6 that he didn't mean.  7 Q   But my question to you is on what basis do you  8 question the word of a chief as to the membership of  9 his house?  10 A   I don't know what you mean.  11 Q   Well, aren't you contradicting Mr. Hyzims?  12 A   No, because I think if I went and sat down in Mr.  13 Hyzims' house and talked to him about the members of  14 the house, which is exactly what I did when he made  15 this genealogy, and these are the people that he told  16 me were the members of his house, and that it could  17 become clear that this is a very difficult situation  18 for him to deal with.  19 Q   Maybe he misunderstood you.  2 0 A  Maybe he did.  21 MR. GRANT:  My lord, I'm not certain at what point to object  22 here, but aren't we getting far into the commentary on  23 the evidence on what you yourself commented on in  24 terms of the evidence of the witness?  This is  25 evidence, of course, before your lordship; that one  26 witness is now being asked to comment on the evidence  27 of another witness.  My friend can save all that for  2 8 argument.  29 MR. GOLDIE:  No.  I'm getting to — this is the foundation for  30 questions with respect to the method by which she goes  31 about her work, and I'm just coming to that right now.  32 THE COURT:  Well, it is becoming argumentative, isn't it?  33 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, it is.  I have about two more questions to  34 put on this point, and these are general questions.  35 THE COURT:  There is a distinction, I think, Mr. Grant, about  36 putting the evidence of one witness to another, which  37 is usually prohibited where the evidence of the  38 witness itself depends on what other people had told  39 her.  And I was thinking along the same lines you were  40 about whether it would be -- whether it's helpful, as  41 the textbooks say, to terrorize the witness with what  42 someone else has said.  But when her whole evidence  43 depends on that kind of investigation, it's a matter  44 that can be tested.  45 MR. GRANT:  And that's why I didn't object at the beginning, my  46 lord.  I think there is a line, but I just think my  47 friend may have crossed it at some point. 11153  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 THE COURT:  Well, I think if he's crossed it, it's really on the  2 basis that it's becoming argumentative, which isn't  3 very helpful for the rest of us.  I'm not sure  4 anybody's having any fun, but as we're nearly  5 through --  6 MR. GOLDIE:  7 Q   I'll put the question that I was leading up to and my  8 friend can object to it if he sees fit.  Is it not a  9 fact that amongst the Gitksan the word of a chief is  10 always taken?  11 A  Within reasonable limits, yes.  12 Q   What are the limits?  13 A   It's assumed that a chief won't lie to you and that he  14 will tell you what he knows to the best of his  15 knowledge.  And in my research, if one chief tells me  16 I believe this person was a member of a certain house  17 but three other chiefs tell me that it wasn't so, then  18 it may be safe to assume that that person was  19 incorrect.  I don't have to assume that absolutely  20 everything that a chief says is absolute truth.  I  21 wouldn't argue with that person to their face.  I  22 might even suggest maybe it was a different way, but I  23 wouldn't argue with them.  24 Q   That would be highly disrespectful?  25 A   Yes, it would.  But I could ask someone else if this  26 is true.  27 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm going to ask Miss Sigurdson to give you a Tab 9  28 with some documents under it.  If you could just take  29 those out.  Take them out.  We'll put them in the blue  30 book.  Meanwhile, my lord, could I have marked under  31 Tab 8 the Exhibit 860-8?  32 THE COURT:  Yes.  33 THE REGISTRAR:  That's the affidavit of Ernest Hyzims?  34 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, it is.  I beg your pardon.  The interrogatory  35 affidavit of Mr. Hyzims to which is attached page  36 36-38.  I won't mark the extract from Mr. Hyzims'  37 cross-examination because I think that has an exhibit  38 number in the action.  39 (EXHIBIT 860-8:  Tab 8, Interrogatory affidavit,  40 Ernest Hyzims)  41 MR. GOLDIE:  Now, I've — hand up that to his lordship.  Perhaps  42 you might put this in your --  43 THE COURT:  As part of Tab 8?  44 MR. GOLDIE:  No.  It's a separate tab, my lord, Tab 9.  Now,  45 Mrs. Harris, I can't say with confidence that this  46 represents everything that is in your notes relating  47 to Mr. Hyzims, but from the time we have had it 11154  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 indicates that it is --  2 MR. GRANT:  Can I clarify that?  Is he referring to Mr. Hyzims  3 or to Gwagl'lo, the House of Gwagl'lo?  4 MR. GOLDIE:  Both.  5 MR. GRANT:  6 Q   You've got the Tab 8 before you -- I mean Tab 9?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Now, the first page is -- is a previous name  9 information?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   And the page number at the lower right-hand corner is  12 ours, but I believe this is in the -- in the -- in the  13 order in which the material was received by us.  But  14 this -- this shows a previous holder of a name with  15 respect to information of the House of Gwagl'lo?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And do you recall who your informant was?  18 A   Yes.  Ernest Hyzims.  19 Q   All right.  And the next page is information with  20 respect to Mr. Hyzims?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And that too your informant was Mr. Hyzims?  2 3 A   Yes, it was.  24 Q   And the next page is the page from his interrogatory,  25 isn't it?  26 A   Yes, it is.  27 Q   And that's your handwriting in the upper left-hand  28 corner, Gwagl'lo?  29 A   Yes, it is.  30 Q   And that's the page that shows Evelyn Johnson as in  31 his house?  32 A   Right.  33 Q   Did you put this page to him?  34 A   No, I didn't.  But I didn't include the names of  35 Evelyn Johnson and Selma Milton because I viewed this  36 as a misinterpretation.  37 Q   All right.  And then the next pages are your draft  38 genealogies?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Now, why have you got on the last page with a cross  41 through it information relating to Evelyn Johnson?  42 A   Because when I initially started doing the  43 genealogies, because of the close relationship between  44 Gwagl'lo and Duubisxw, I thought they were the same  45 house.  But as you say, this was a draft and at a  46 later date I found that in fact Duubisxw was a  47 separate house and Gaxsbgabaxs was originally thought 11155  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 may have been the same house, and I made separate  2 genealogies for them when I gained further  3 information.  4 Q   Yes.  I realize you made separate genealogies for  5 them, but I can't determine from your notes why you  6 decided these two were the same -- were -- were  7 separate.  8 A   I interviewed Gertie Watson and got further  9 information, I believe, about Gwagl'lo, Duubisxw and  10 Gaxsbgabaxs.  I can't remember specifically who told  11 me they were separate.  12 Q   All right.  But whoever it was you accepted?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   Now, under Tab -- under Tab 6 -- would you look at  15 that, please?  Maybe I should explain this to you.  16 There's an exhibit in this trial, the map called  17 Exhibit -- marked as Exhibit 102, which is -- refers  18 to external boundaries, clan boundaries, house  19 boundaries.  And we are told that it's dated October,  20 1985.  Do you have any recollection of seeing such a  21 map?  22 A   No.  23 Q   And then the legend on that map is reproduced here,  24 not from the original map but from one that the  25 plaintiffs prepared.  And you will see that there's a  26 coding starting with clan, village of origin and then  27 chiefs.  Do you see that?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   If you look at number 15 of the chiefs, you'll see  30 Gwagl'lo, Gasgabaxs and Duubisxw; is that right?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Was it not your understanding at one time that those  33 were either related houses or parts of one house?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And at some later time you changed your mind?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And so far as your present recollection goes, you  38 changed your mind because of information given you by  39 Gertie Watson?  40 A   Partly.  41 Q   Is she a member of any one of those three houses?  42 A   Gaxsbgabaxs.  43 Q   And she says they're all separate?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And you accepted that?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   With what confirmation? 11156  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   I don't remember.  2 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  I now wish to refer you to the House of  3 Antgulilbix.  And there is a -- would you be good  4 enough to --  5 THE COURT:  Do you want these marked?  6 MR. GOLDIE:  Oh, yes, I do, my lord.  I would ask that the —  7 that the extract from Exhibit 102 be Exhibit 860 Tab 6  8 and the -- the material from the witness' working  9 papers.  10 THE COURT:  9?  11 MR. GOLDIE:  9.  12 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  13 (EXHIBIT 860-6:  Tab 6, Extract of map of Exhibit 102)  14 (EXHIBIT 860-9:  Tab 9, Working papers and genealogy  15 draft)  16 THE COURT:  8 was marked previously.  17 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  And 8 has been marked previously.  I'm not  18 sure about that.  It's been marked previously just now  19 as 860-8.  20 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes.  21 MR. GRANT:  It's marked as Exhibit 1 in Mr. Hyzims', I believe,  22 cross-examination.  23 THE REGISTRAR:  That's Tab 1 in the genealogy book.  24 MR. GOLDIE:  25 Q   Thank you.  I don't think it's necessary to put this  26 up on the wall, but did you prepare this genealogy,  27 Mrs. Harris?  28 A   Yes, I did.  29 Q   And you referred to it in your evidence in chief, but  30 I want to ask you a few questions.  On page 1 that  31 tells us that Mary Johnson is Antgulilbix?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And her brother Stanley is Tsibasaa?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   Is it your understanding that Tsibasaa is a separate  36 house?  37 A   No.  38 Q   Was it ever a separate house?  39 A   Not that I know of.  40 Q   Well, I want you to assist me, please, by referring to  41 page 95 of your report.  You say in footnote 8:  "The  42 precise relationship is known between all living  43 members of the following houses".  And at the top of  44 page 96 you list Tsibasaa.  Why do you --  45 A  Where are we?  46 Q   Page 95 of your report.  47 A   Yes.  I'm sorry.  Oh, yeah.  Okay. 11157  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   The footnote 8.  You talk about the precise  2 relationship as known between all living members of  3 the following houses.  And then at the top of page 96  4 you appear to single out Tsibasaa as a house?  5 A   Um-hum.  6 Q   Well, I thought you told me a minute ago Tsibasaa is  7 not a separate house?  8 A   Tsibasaa and Antgulilbix are two names for the same  9 thing.  They have two equally related high chiefs who  10 sit at opposite ends of the table.  11 Q   Isn't Mary Johnson's a high name?  12 A   They're equally ranked names as is the way Mary  13 Johnson and Stanley Wilson would put it.  14 Q   I see.  I thought Mary Johnson simply said they  15 were -- well, perhaps what you're saying -- I follow  16 you.  She -- she and you say they're a single house  17 but with two equally ranking names?  18 A   Yes.  That's correct.  19 THE COURT:  So you might just easily put Antgulilbix there?  20 THE WITNESS:  Or Tsibasaa, yes, at the top of the — at the name  21 of the genealogy, your honour.  22 THE COURT:  Yes.  23 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  It could be called the House of Tsibasaa or  24 House of Antgulilbix and both would be equally  25 correct.  26 MR. GOLDIE:  27 Q   And in your genealogy you -- you identify as the house  28 Antgulilbix and then you corrected a mistake you made  29 where you put clan Tsibasaa?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   But if you remove clan and -- if you remove Tsibasaa  32 as the description of the clan and put the proper clan  33 name in, then you have identified the house as  34 Antgulilbix?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   All right.  And you do not include Yal in the group in  37 paragraph -- or footnote 8, but you do in the footnote  38 9 on page 96.  That's a -- because in footnote 9 you  39 describe the house as Tsibasaa, Antgulilbix, Yal.  40 Now, is that the same house that you describe with a  41 single name Tsibasaa in the preceding footnote?  42 A   Yes, it is.  43 Q   Thank you.  And Yal is not a separate house?  44 A   Not the Yal I'm referring to there, not at this time.  45 It is amalgamated as Tsibasaa.  It came out of  46 Tsibasaa and it went back in is what happened.  47 Q   Let's avoid confusing me any more than I am.  May we 1115?  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 refer to this house by the name you referred to on the  2 genealogy as Antgulilbix?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   When you say Yal came out of Tsibasaa, we can take it  5 as meaning came out of Antgulilbix?  6 A   Yes.  I'm sorry.  7 Q   All right.  Thank you.  And Mrs. Johnson was, of  8 course, your informant with respect to the genealogy?  9 A   She was one of them.  10 Q   Now, you indicate on the genealogy that it was updated  11 March the 17th, 1987.  Is that the time that you  12 completed the document that we see in front of us?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   What did you do with that, with that document?  Did  15 you send it over to the lawyers?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   I mean, this is the document that left your hand  18 around March the 17th, 1987?  19 A   Yes.  20 MR. GOLDIE:  Just picking up on a comment that you made a minute  21 ago about Yal, are we to take it from the depiction of  22 the genealogy on this page that there --  23 MR. GRANT:  Which page?  24 MR. GOLDIE:  25 Q   I'm sorry.  Not this page.  This chart, number 185 --  26 Exhibit 853-1.  That there were three sisters who  27 founded the three lineages?  28 A   That's a hard question to answer because there are --  29 I don't know which -- which sisters do you mean?  30 Maybe I can answer it better.  31 Q   Well, I'm asking you to assist me.  On page 1 there  32 seems to be a lineage which descends from the wife of  33 Luutkudziiwas, which is shown at the top of the page?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And is -- is that -- and then if we go over to page 7,  36 does that show us a lineage descended from the sister  37 of the wife of Luutkudziiwas?  38 A   That's correct.  39 Q   And that's what you intended to show?  40 A   Yes.  That's correct.  41 Q   And then we go over to the next page.  And does that  42 show a lineage descended from another sister?  43 A   Yes, it does.  44 MR. GOLDIE:  And then if we go over to —  45 THE COURT:  That's Alice Wilson?  46 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  47 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Alice Wilson's mother. 11159  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 MR. GOLDIE:  2 Q   Then if we go over to page 9, would you tell me what  3 is the relationship between the three sisters we have  4 identified so far and what we see on that page?  5 A   That's two more brothers and a sister.  6 Q   All of the same original two that we looked at?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   All right.  And finally we go over to page 10.  And  9 what do we have there?  Another sister?  10 A   No.  A cousin.  We have an aunt.  The circle at the  11 top would represent an aunt to those three sisters and  12 two brothers we just spoke of.  13 Q   All right.  Thank you.  So you're satisfied that you  14 found the common ancestors for the lineages of the  15 House of Antgulilbix?  16 A   Yes.  17 MR. GRANT:  My friend — I'm just concerned.  My friend's  18 terminology I would object to, my lord, because having  19 gone through this, it's apparent that this is not  20 three separate lineages but one lineage by the  21 definition, I believe, that the witness has used of  22 what a lineage is, because it's all commonly  23 connected.  My friend suggested it was separate  24 lineages.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I'll —  26 THE COURT:  Depicted separately.  27 MR. GOLDIE:  The -- I'm trying to find out why there are three  28 names that are -- or at least two that are given  29 equal -- equal billing.  30 THE COURT:  You mean Antgulilbix and —  31 MR. GOLDIE:  32 Q   And Tsibasaa.  And I thought at one point that they  33 had a different lineage, but if my friend is correct  34 and Mrs. Harris adopts that, there is but one lineage.  35 A  Mr. Goldie and Mr. Grant are both correct.  36 Technically the entire house is one lineage in that  37 the connections are known between all of the members,  38 but a more imprecise word -- or usage of the word  39 lineages is just to mean a branch of the word.  I  40 believe that's what Mr. Goldie's referring to.  41 Q   Well, I was -- that's where I was heading, yes.  42 A   The branch is descended from the three sisters that we  43 spoke of.  44 Q   Yes.  45 A   Okay.  That would maybe be a better word to use,  46 branch, instead of lineage, so that we're not confused  47 between the two. 11160  H. Harris (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  Thank you.  2 THE COURT:  How are we doing, Mr. Goldie?  3 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, is your lordship asking me when I anticipate  4 finishing?  5 THE COURT:  Oh, I wouldn't want to pin you down too tightly to  6 that, except that I have some difficulties this week  7 because I didn't expect that we would be sitting.  And  8 if we're going to have trouble finishing, well then I  9 would like to think that we might start sitting a  10 little later.  I can't tonight, but if there's any  11 difficulty in finishing, I'd be happy to sit an extra  12 hour tomorrow night.  13 MR. GOLDIE:  That would be -- I expect to finish tomorrow.  14 THE COURT:  Tomorrow?  15 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  16 THE COURT:  Oh, well, then we're in good shape.  17 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, the only qualification is that when I go back  18 to the office, I may find that --  19 THE COURT:  All right.  How long will you be, Ms. Koenigsberg?  20 Do you have any idea?  21 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  It's hard to tell, but I wouldn't anticipate  22 still being longer than two days, and I'm working at  23 getting that down.  24 THE COURT:  All right.  I'll leave it to counsel to indicate  25 tomorrow if you think we should sit an extra hour  26 tomorrow afternoon.  I have a problem at lunchtime on  27 Wednesday and I'm going to have to take an extra hour,  28 I think, half hour before and a half hour after.  And  29 I can't sit on either Tuesday or Wednesday night, but  30 I can on Thursday.  And we can sit an extra hour in  31 the afternoon or two extra hours on Thursday if you  32 want, or we can sit on Saturday if we have to.  So  33 I'll leave it with counsel to alert me to any  34 difficulties we might have in the way of completing  35 this witness this week.  All right.  Thank you.  Ten  36 o'clock tomorrow.  37 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn.  3 8 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  39 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  40 a true and accurate transcript of the  41 proceedings transcribed to the best  42 of my skill and ability.  43  44  45  46 Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  47 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.


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