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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-11-29] British Columbia. Supreme Court Nov 29, 1988

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 9846  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  SMITHERS, B.C.  November 29, 1988  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Witness, I remind you, you are  still under oath.  MR. GRANT:  Before my friend proceeds, my lord, I just wonder if  I could have leave, Mr. Adams was scheduled to be  working with out-of-court witnesses, and the  out-of-court witness he was scheduled to be with this  morning there's some logistical problems.  He doesn't  have his gown, so I wonder if he could sit at counsel  table with me.  COURT:  Oh, yes, certainly.  Mr. Mackenzie.  MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  First matter, my lord, is  these are matters left from yesterday, filings to be  made.  The first matter is filing the interrogatory of  Martha Ridsdale, the affidavits for February 19, 1987,  and her interrogatory number 59(c) .  I would submit  that as the next exhibit, my lord.  COURT:  And that's the interrogatory?  MACKENZIE:  The affidavit and the interrogatory.  GRANT:  No objection.  COURT:  Thank you.  And her name is Margaret Ridsdale?  MACKENZIE:  Martha Ridsdale.  She's speaking for Wii'goo'l.  GRANT:  Just so you can appreciate, my lord, is that what  happened here is that Wii'goob'l, Jessie Sterritt,  gave commission evidence which is now before your  lordship.  COURT:  Yes.  GRANT:  The interrogatory was prepared -- I believe it was  prepared subsequently to that, and Wii'goob'l, Jessie  Sterritt, was hospitalized for several months and very  ill, and that's why Martha Ridsdale gave her response  at that time.  THE COURT:  I take it there's no difficulty in marking exhibits  in the sequence of numbers used at the trial, even  though this is cross-examination?  MR. GRANT:  I was going to raise that yesterday, and Mr.  Reporter raised it with me, I was intending to raise  it this morning.  Of course the practise has been that  the cross-examinations of each witness are filed as an  exhibit appended to their affidavit and the exhibit  sequentially, and that's what's happening out of  court.  I don't think there's a problem, given that we  are in court.  THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  If we have to rearrange the  numbering later I suppose that can be done all at one  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR. 9847  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 time.  At the moment I think it's probably more  2 convenient just to use the trial numbering sequence  3 and then --  4 MR. GRANT:  And that would suggest that the transcript would be  5 numbered sequentially as part of the trial transcript.  6 So, for example, Mr. Robinson, there won't be an  7 exhibit which is a transcript and an exhibit following  8 his affidavit.  9 THE COURT:  No, all right.  This number then will be —  10 THE REGISTRAR:  811.  11 THE COURT:  811, thank you.  12  13 EXHIBIT 811 - Affidavit of Martha Ridsdale dated  14 February 19, 1987  15  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  And another outstanding matter is filing Exhibit  17 810 for identification, and I'm giving my friend a  18 copy and handing to the Madam Registrar a copy that  19 was put to the witness, has my highlighting on it.  20 THE COURT:  Oh, I don't think that matters.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  And it has a note that I made on the bottom of  22 it also.  I would like that to be noted, please, that  23 that wasn't in the original document.  24 MR. GRANT:  Is that the note "R.R. Gwoimt"?  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, "Also Gwoimt".  I'm sorry, so that would be  26 Exhibit 810 for identification.  2 7 THE COURT:  Thank you.  28 MR. GRANT:  I'm not objecting to Exhibit 810 at all.  It can be  29 an exhibit proper.  30 THE COURT:  Yes, thank you.  31  32 EXHIBIT 810 - Data sheet of topographic survey  33  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  And arising out of yesterday, I'm going to file  35 the interrogatories of Guuhadak.  36 THE COURT:  May I see the interrogatories, please?  Thank you.  37 Incidentally, did counsel see on the national news  38 last night that they completed a trial in Quebec  39 yesterday after 389 days.  I'm glad to see we're not  40 going to be in the Guinness Book of World Records for  41 that reason, at least I hope not.  42 MR. GRANT:  Was the judge elevated in the process, my lord?  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  44 1     Q   And I'm going to file these.  Mr. Robinson, you're now  45 holding the chief's name Guuhadak?  46 A   Yeah.  Just holding it, not -- I didn't accept it  47 fully to be mine, I'm just holding it. 9848  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  12     Q   Before you it was Thomas Wright, correct?  2 A   Yes.  3 3     Q   And can you confirm that the members of Guuhadak's  4 house are also the same as the members in Wii Kaax's  5 house?  6 A   That's correct.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I'm filing Thomas Wright's  8 interrogatory, number -- his affidavit and  9 interrogatory number 24 and his interrogatory number  10 59(c).  11 THE COURT:  He's deceased now, is he?  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  13 4     Q   Yes.  He died last fall.  Is that correct, Mr.  14 Robinson?  15 A   Yeah.  I believe so, yeah.  16 THE COURT:  All right.  Those will be 812.  17  18 EXHIBIT 812 - Affidavit of Thomas Wright and  19 interrogatories 24 and 59(c)  20  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  I might advise your lordship that some of the  22 interrogatories -- Guuhadak interrogatories have been  23 marked in this trial, and the affidavit and  24 interrogatories 9, 10 and 22 were marked as Exhibit  25 337, so if your lordship and my friend have no  26 objection, I still put the affidavit and  27 interrogatories in at this time for the -- to keep the  28 record straight.  29 THE COURT:  Exhibit 337 is what again, please?  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  The affidavit of Guuhadak and interrogatories 9,  31 10, and 22.  32 THE COURT:  All right.  It will still be more convenient to give  33 this a separate number because of the sequence in  34 which it appears at the trial.  Give me the exhibit  35 numbers again so I can just have a note of where they  36 relate to each other.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my Lord.  The Guuhadak interrogatory —  38 sorry -- the Guuhadak affidavit and interrogatories 9,  39 10 --  4 0 THE COURT:  What is the exhibit number?  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  The exhibit number is 337, my lord.  42 THE COURT:  Thank you.  43 MR. GRANT:  I think the handwriting on the front of Exhibit 812  44 is my friend's or --  45 THE COURT:  Yes.  I'm sure it is.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  That's the indication that this is  47 Guuhadak written on the top of the first page.  And 9849  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  5  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  7  to  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  continuing from yesterday, filing the interrogatory of  Yagosip, Y-A-G-O-S-I-P, the affidavit sworn May 12,  1987, and interrogatory 18.  COURT:  Who swore it?  GRANT:  Sworn by Joyce Turner, who is Yagosip.  COURT:  Thank you.  GRANT:  Well, the copy my friend has given me includes 1  6 plus 15 to 18.  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  I'm just filing exhibit — or at least  interrogatory 18, my lord.  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  First page shows that this is Exhibit A to the  affidavit, and then the second page  18 -- I'm sorry -- interrogatory IE  interrogatories, but I'm not filing those.  COURT:  That will be 813.  GRANT:  No objection.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  shows Exhibit  and some previous  EXHIBIT  18  513 - Affidavit of Yagosip, interrogatory  A  Q  A  MACKENZIE:  Q   Yesterday, Mr. Robinson, you couldn't recall whether  Joyce Turner's grandchildren were in the House of  Mediigemgyet?  Grandchildren?  That should be the House of Yagosip.  Yes, fine, thank you.  And you also couldn't recall  that one of the grandchildren was in the House of  Luus, or at least some of the grandchildren were in  the House of Luus?  No, I can't.  MACKENZIE:  No.  And one in the House of Luutkudziiwas?  GRANT:  Well, my friend is misreading this, because  yesterday, my lord, he suggested that Charlie Witwer  is in the House of Luutkudziiwas.  That's not how the  answer refers to, if you look at the last page.  MACKENZIE:  I made a mistake in —  GRANT:  It says she's from the House of Mediigemgyet and it  referred to two other persons whose names my friend  did not put to the witness as being in the House of  Luutkudziiwas.  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  I made it a mistake in that, my lord, and  perhaps I can correct this now.  GRANT:  Can the witness have a -- see the exhibit.  MACKENZIE:  Q   Yes.  The exhibit's got nothing to do with the  witness, but I have no objection to him looking at it. 9850  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  So, my lord, I should correct my question yesterday.  I should have asked Mr. Robinson yesterday to confirm  that Joyce Robinson's grandaughter's in --  granddaughter Charlie Witwer is in the House of  Mediigemgyet, and I should have asked him that two of  the grandchildren, Brandon Wright and Fawn Wright are  in the House of Luutkudziiwas.  COURT:  The affidavit doesn't say that.  MACKENZIE:  Q   Interrogatory 18 says that, my lord.  A   She's supposed to be in Yagosip, Mediigemgyet is just  a member of Yagosip's house.  MACKENZIE:  Does your lordship see that now?  COURT:  Oh, I gather then that what you're saying is that  the house name comes after the names of the  grandchildren, does it?  MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  That was my mistake, that's why I  made the mistake, my lord.  COURT:  So the Brandon, "Wr" Wright and Fawn Wright are from  the House of Luutkudziiwas?  MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  COURT:  Whereas —  GRANT:  I don't recall if those two names were put to the  witness.  I do know the Witwer name was put to the  witness.  MACKENZIE:  No.  They weren't put to the witness.  COURT:  I don't think those names were put to the witness.  MACKENZIE:  No, that's right.  COURT:  But this document speaks for itself.  MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  COURT:  When you figure it out.  A   I believe these -- I don't know the names of these  children, but I don't know how it get involved in  Mediigemgyet's house, and it says Luutkudziiwas here,  and they're grandchildren of Yagosip, is that right.  COURT:  Yes.  But wouldn't that come about by reason of a  male child of this lady marrying a member of that  house and having children and those children belong to  the mother's house?  A   I believe this is the way it goes -- it's I guess  Yagosip's son lives with Lutkudziiwas' -- married a  woman or had children by a woman who was in the other  house.  This is what I believe, but I don't know the  names of the children, but I believe that's the way it  is .  GRANT:  He was pointing to two children, Brandon and Fawn  Wright, but he was explaining that to your lordship.  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  THE  9  MR.  10  8  11  12  13  MR.  14  THE  15  16  17  MR.  18  19  THE  20  21  MR.  22  THE  23  MR.  24  25  26  MR.  27  THE  28  MR.  29  THE  30  MR.  31  THE  32  33  34  35  36  THE  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  MR.  47 9851  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  Well, in my limited knowledge of that, all that  2 could only happen by those two children having a  3 mother who is in the House of Luutkudziiwas,  4 Luutkudziiwas' house.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  And I think the point that I was making, my  6 lord, is argument really, is the parallel of the  7 houses.  There's no mention of Yagosip there.  8 THE COURT:  You mean that none of her grandchildren are said to  9 be in the House of Yagosip?  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  11 9     Q   Yes, my lord.  12 A   Did she have any daughters?  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my point, my lord, is that they're said to  14 be in the House of Mediigemgyet.  15 MR. GRANT:  I believe the witness has explained that, my lord.  16 THE COURT:  Yes.  Well, I should know that.  Mr. Robinson, does  17 Yagosip have children?  18 A   You mean Joyce Turner?  19 THE COURT:  Yes?  20 A   Yes.  21 THE COURT:  And did she have sons and daughters?  22 A   Sons and daughters.  23 THE COURT:  Sons and daughters?  24 A   Yes.  25 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  26 A   But excuse me, your honour, they are -- their sons are  27 married to a different house.  Some of them are  28 married into Nika Te'en's house and some of them are  29 married into Luutkudziiwas' house, and this is what I  30 guess the confusion is all about.  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  33 10    Q   Now yesterday, Mr. Robinson, you said that you respect  34 the elders, you listen to their conversation and if  35 they say something wrong or if you say something wrong  36 they correct you; is that your evidence?  37 A   Yes.  That's the general thing, but according to my  38 affidavit that -- that the land that I am talking  39 about I learned from the source of my parents and some  40 other people that are in -- related to it that I walk  41 with on the territory, but outside of that I try to  42 learn something else outside of that, not within the  43 territory that I'm talking about.  44 11    Q   But there are problems around there with the younger  45 people.  You have a concern about the younger people  46 today, they don't know about the territories, is that  47 correct? 9852  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  12  Q  15  16  17  A  18  19  20  21  22  13  Q  23  24  25  A  26  14  Q  27  A  28  15  Q  29  A  30  31  32  33  16  Q  34  35  36  37  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  17  Q  44  45  46  A  47  Well, some wanted to learn about the territories, but  most times in the old days that I can remember some  families, they pick a certain young woman or young man  to try and educate into their territories, and they  keep doing it, doing it, doing it and, you know, and  so they will have one in the house that will really  understand the territory, but nowadays we've got a lot  of things going on and, you know, whenever you get the  chance to try and educate a young man or young woman  you would have to do it to a, you know, shorter length  of time, and then you have to pick it up some other  time again, but in the olden days it's really  consistent.  It's difficult today because the young people are  going to school and then they're involved in other  jobs, and it's difficult to learn sometimes?  Yes.  It is difficult to learn, but, you know, in this  day and age now they're going to the feast house a lot  more younger than they usually do in the old days, and  you know, and then they will pick up their education  through there.  And some of the younger people say when you were a  young man you became impatient with some of the old  customs, didn't they?  Me?  Yes, when you were a young man in those days?  Well, I figure that I'll never grow old.  You're still a young man, yes?  And then I wasn't too keen on learning too much about  it, but whatever they told me I think back now and I  remember, and then -- now I said to myself I wish I  would listen a little bit more.  Do you remember back around the time when you were  about 18, that was about 1940, you were concerned that  the older generation of chiefs preferred to practise  the old customs and ceremonies; remember being  concerned about that?  Yes.  I was concerned because they have to run into a  lot of obstacles against a law that is trying to  extinguish the way of the life of the native people,  they do anything to block, and I was concerned about  that.  And the chiefs, the elders had authority to govern you  and to improve your living conditions, but you were  concerned that they failed to fulfil those duties?  I don't think I ever mentioned that they failed to  fulfil the duties. 9853  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  18  Q  2  3  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  19  Q  11  12  13  14  A  15  20  Q  16  17  A  18  19  21  Q  20  A  21  22  22  Q  23  24  25  26  A  27  28  23  Q  29  30  31  A  32  24  Q  33  34  A  35  25  Q  36  37  A  38  26  Q  39  40  41  A  42  MR.  GRANT  43  44  45  46  47  THE  COURT  Well, you believed when you were 18, and I'm sure you  believe now, it was essential to improve the Indian  people, the Gitksan people socially and mentally and  physically, didn't you?  Well, you've got to stick to what you believe in and  what you're brought up into, because you can't deny  yourself to be an Indian, you can't be a white man if  you're an Indian, so you have to go back to your own  laws and governed by it.  Well, you were concerned when you were a young man in  1940, you complained about the fact that the chiefs  were more interested in carrying out the old Indian  customs?  I don't remember saying that.  And you and other people sought to organize a village  council in Hazelton, didn't you?  You mean the local people organized the village  council?  Yes.  I don't believe they organized the village council, I  believe the D.I.A. did.  And you and other young people in Hazelton wanted to  control the council in Hazelton because you were  concerned about the problems with the elders and the  chiefs, weren't you?  I don't think the chiefs have any problem, I think the  councils have the problem.  But you wanted -- you and the other other young people  wanted to establish a council and take charge of life  in Hazelton, didn't you?  Not take charge, take directions from the chiefs.  You wanted that council to be fully controlled by the  young people, didn't you?  No.  And you wanted the young people in Hazelton to be able  to elect their own chief councillor, or didn't you?  No.  And you were -- you wanted to achieve these purposes  and goals and objectives in co-operation with the  local Indian agent?  I don't know.  :  Just a moment, my Lord.  That last question my  friend says "these goals and objectives".  I'm not --  I think that he should be -- I'm not sure what he's  talking about with regard to the last question, unless  he's just talking about setting up a council and --  :  I took it he was talking about the improvement on 9854  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 the conditions of the Indians generally, as he  2 mentioned in several questions ago.  3 MR. GRANT:  Well, he's raised a whole bunch of things, and I  4 think it's only fair that --  5 THE COURT:  You can clarify that, Mr. Mackenzie.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  7 27    Q   Well, I referred to the goals and objectives that I've  8 been discussing with you in the last series of  9 questions, that is, as his lordship said, improving  10 the Indian people of Hazelton socially, mentally and  11 physically, to be able to meet the competition of the  12 new world, to have -- to give power to the young  13 people to manage affairs in Hazelton, to organize and  14 fully control a village council in Hazelton, and to  15 elect their own chief councillor, and all in  16 co-operation with the local Indian agent.  And you  17 were one of the young people who wanted to do that,  18 weren't you?  19 A   No.  I wasn't involved in the early days about chief  20 councilling until I was elected.  21 28    Q   And your father also, Bob Robinson, was -- wanted to  22 do those things and accomplish those goals, didn't he?  23 A   I don't believe he did.  24 29    Q   And you signed a petition in 1940 stating those facts  25 and your interest and desire to attain those goals,  2 6              didn't you?  27 A  What kind of a petition?  28 30    Q   I'm talking about when you were 18; do you recall  29 that?  30 A  When I was 18 I don't believe I was in Hazelton.  31 31    Q   So you don't know anything about that?  32 A   No.  33 32    Q   I've put before you a document from Canada's list of  34 documents, document 11385.  It's a copy of a letter --  35 appears to be a copy of a letter dated January 6th,  36 1940 from Mr. Mellinson.  And on the second page of  37 what are typed out names of people which the letter  38 says are signatures of the people who took part in the  39 meeting in which the letter was drawn up and adopted,  40 and at the bottom of the first column there's the name  41 Mr. Steven Robinson, and just above that Mr. Bob  42 Robinson, and above that Mr. Bob W. Robinson.  Now, do  43 you know a Mr. Bob W. Robinson?  44 A   That's my dad, yes.  45 33    Q   And do you know Mr. Bob Robinson?  46 A   I guess that's either my dad or my brother.  47 34    Q   Your brother is Bob Robinson, is he? 9855  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Yes.  2 35    Q   And I take it you know many of the other people on  3 that list?  4 A   Yes.  I know most of them.  Some of them are deceased.  5 I have to go through them.  Yes, I know all of them,  6 yeah.  7 36    Q   All right.  Can you recall that meeting now?  8 A   No, I can't remember.  I can't recall that, sir.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  Can you recall —  10 MR. GRANT:  Maybe the witness should have an opportunity to read  11 the first page of it.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  13 37    Q   Yes.  14 A   No.  I don't recall that.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, this is Canada's document, and I  16 understand perhaps Miss Koenigsberg can indicate  17 whether that's going to be exhibited at some other  18 time.  19 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I would anticipate that probably we will seek  2 0 to have this document admitted probably along with  21 other documents in the file as a business record.  22 THE COURT:  The most that can be done with it at the moment will  23 be marked as identification, it is as a document that  24 the witness has looked at but does not recall.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  I think that's the only solution, my lord.  2 6 THE COURT:  All right.  27 MR. GRANT:  What is the number?  28 THE REGISTRAR:  814.  29 THE COURT:  814 for identification.  30  31 EXHIBIT 814 FOR IDENTIFICATION - Letter dated January 6,  32 1940, Canada's document number 11385  33  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  35 38    Q   Now, you've told us of your respect for the chiefs,  36 and you hold several chief's names:  You hold Spookw,  37 Mediigemgyet, and Guuhadak.  Those are high names; can  38 you agree with that?  39 A   Yes.  40 39    Q   Can you tell his lordship what training a person has  41 to have to be entitled to hold that responsibility?  42 A  Well, the training that you really have to be  43 disciplined, because when you open -- when the elders  44 teach you you've got to have patience.  And if there's  45 any -- I don't know how to put it -- anything that  46 really comes against you, you have to be patient and  47 deal with it and try and do the best you can to 9856  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 straighten it out, and according to the land you have  2 to try and learn and discipline yourself to look after  3 the land that is put upon you so the future  4 generations should use it and respect it.  5 40    Q   And only certain people can be chosen for that task?  6 A  Well, in the old days I believe there's -- you know,  7 there's -- there should be about two or three, that's  8 what I heard from our conversations that I attended  9 with the elders, and then if --  10 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  There were two or three?  11 A   Two or three people that would be looked upon to take  12 the responsibility of being a chief, and sometimes the  13 whole three fail and there's one that come out of  14 nowhere that is more responsible than the three, and  15 then they choose that person, and there's a lot of  16 ways in our tradition that you can -- you can pick  17 who's going to be your chief, and sometimes the young  18 person that you've chosen has said no and you have to  19 look at someone else.  There's a lot of that happening  20 in the generations past, you know, but it's the new  21 generation, it's more difficult because there's a lot  22 of mixtures in -- going on in this world, this new  23 generation that we have, so that we have to more or  24 less try and train our young people, and the best way  25 to train them is through the feast hall, that's how  26 come they come in the earlier age.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  28 41    Q   And what you've said applies to Spookw and the Lax  29 Gibuu clan as well?  30 A   It applies to all clans, not just Lax Gibuu clan, it  31 applies to every clan.  32 42    Q   Well, in fact, the situation is, isn't it, that  33 whoever in Lax Gibuu has money can get the name  34 Spookw?  35 A  Well, you've got to be a go-getter, it's not just  36 Spookw, it's other chiefs.  You try to say just  37 Spookw.  Well, that's wrong.  You say just Spookw.  38 Maybe frog clan will fight to try to get more money  39 than the Lax Gibuu clan, and they will be Spookw, that  40 will be out of proportion.  41 43    Q   Well, you told Neil Sterritt in 1986 that for the  42 Spookw name whoever in Lax Gibuu has money can take  43 the name, that's on page 73 of the notes I handed up  44 to -- handed up to you and his lordship, the second  45 paragraph?  46 A   I remember saying that.  47 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, you say you do remember or you don't 9857  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 remember?  2 A   I remember saying it because -- because if anybody  3 that produced more money and the people would look at  4 him and then he can pay off anything that -- any debt  5 that is incurred, you see, like if your -- it's not  6 just money.  If a hard worker and don't let his team  7 down and he'll improve himself and improve his clan,  8 like Spookw, and if, you know, like the other people  9 say "Well, so and so got money, that's why he got it",  10 so maybe, maybe it is, maybe it is not, but when Neil  11 asked me I told him, I says "Well, it concerns with  12 wealth too".  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  And — well, mark that as the next exhibit, my  14 lord, that document.  15 MR. GRANT:  I would ask for identification, on the same terms as  16 yesterday, my lord.  17 THE COURT:  Yes.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's page —  19 THE COURT:  115 for identification.  20  21 EXHIBIT 115 FOR IDENTIFICATION - Notes of Neil  22 Sterritt  23  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  25 44    Q   So in fact, a big chief has to put up, as you've said,  26 a lot of money, at least a thousand dollars in cash,  27 to get a name?  28 A  Well, just depends, if he gets two thousand he can put  29 two thousand, there's no limit to it.  30 45    Q   And you have to put up a lot of food?  31 A  A lot of food.  32 46    Q   And Liigiwil, what's that?  33 A  What?  34 47    Q   What is that term?  35 A   No.  I'm not going to make fun of you, but try and so  36 I can straighten it out in my own mind what it is.  37 Now, what's that word you're talking about?  38 MR. GRANT:  It's the word in this reference?  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  40 48    Q   Yes.  It's on page 43 of the reference I've just  41 handed out and the second paragraph of page 43 of Mr.  42 Sterritt's notes.  You see that word at the end there  43 of the second paragraph on page 43?  It's  44 L-I-G-I-W-I-L(sic).  Does that assist you?  45 A   Liigawil.  46 49    Q   Yes, Liigawil?  47 A   That means any -- in the line of merchandise, there's 985?  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 a lot of -- what area of merchandise, say like  2 clothing, and whatever Liigawil is, and that  3 includes -- in our terms that includes money too,  4 Liigawil.  That's the big word that covers everything.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  I submit that note as the next exhibit for  6 identification, my lord.  7 THE COURT:  816.  8  9 EXHIBIT 816 FOR IDENTIFICATION - Note of John  10 Sterritt  11  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  13 50    Q   Now, I want to finish off our discussion about the  14 territories in your affidavit, Mr. Robinson.  15 Yesterday you said that maps changed but the  16 boundaries remained the same.  Do you recall that?  17 A   Yes.  Because the map can be changed through Fish and  18 Wildlife and through the working order of discussion.  19 If we're going to draw a map -- but the map that I got  20 in my head is in here, not on a piece of paper.  21 51    Q   But yesterday we saw that people have differing views  22 about the names of the features and the ownership of  23 features and territories?  2 4          A  Mm-hmm.  25 52    Q   And Spoowk's territories, for example, you agree with  26 that?  27 A   You can have different features of other territories,  28 but what you are taught yourself, that's what you  2 9 know.  30 53    Q   And we discussed the territory of Spookw yesterday,  31 but for the other territories in your affidavit, Nika  32 Te'en, Yagosip and Woosimlaxha, there are also many  33 different views about ownership of those territories,  34 aren't there?  35 A  Well, you know, like the other people would have  36 different views of it, but the people that have told  37 me this ever since I was knee high I would say,  38 because I travelled with these people in the  39 territory, like Nika te'en's family and my grandfather  40 that has these territories, and, you know, and what I  41 learned from them, that's what I put on this  42 affidavit.  43 54    Q   And I'm suggesting to you that Neil Sterritt, to your  44 knowledge, received information from many people with  45 different opinions about ownership of say Nika te'en  46 and the other territories in your affidavit; can you  47 agree with that? 9859  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  Would you really explain that to me, sir, that what  2 you mean?  3 55    Q   I'm saying that you know that Neil Sterritt received  4 many different views about the ownership of  5 territories in those -- ownership of territories  6 described in your affidavit?  7 A   I don't know what kind of views that he had, because I  8 don't read up on his notes or anything.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  Excuse me, Mr. Robinson, I'm just trying to find  10 a document here.  And in your affidavit is -- I'm just  11 speaking about Nika Te'en's territory then, just  12 following this line of questioning.  13 MR. GRANT:  Which one?  There are two.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  15 56    Q   In your affidavit at page 11, paragraph 35, you say  16 that -- you say under "Hills" that:  17  18 "Mount Glen, locally known as Silver Standard  19 Mountain, is in Nika Te'en's territory."  20  21 A   Yes.  22 57    Q   Yes.  Well, are you aware that Woosimlaxha also claims  23 that territory?  24 A   Not that I know of.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  That mountain?  26 MR. GRANT:  My lord, if my friend is relying on the two pieces  27 of paper he's just given, I object to that question  28 because Woosimlaxha, as set out in the affidavit, is  29 Victor Mowatt.  These two statements do not appear to  30 be the statement of Victor Mowatt, if that is what my  31 friend is relying.  If he's relying on something else  32 with which is a state of Mr. Victor Mowatt, who is  33 Woosimlaxha, who that is, it is his territory, then I  34 stand to be corrected, but that is a misleading  35 question that was asked.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  I have handed up, my lord, Neil Sterritt's  37 topographical survey notes dated February 8th, 1976  38 relating to this Silver Standard-Mount Glen, and I  39 am -- I've just handed up a map of the Hazelton area  40 showing the location of Mount Glen right in the midst  41 of all those mining claims just north-east of  42 Hazelton.  The notes on that map are my notes, and I  43 ask you to disregard them, Mount Glen is right.  44 THE COURT:  I see it.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  East of Glen Vowell, the Indian Reserve.  4 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  And that's the mountain we're talking about. 9860  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Now, I asked Mr. Robinson whether he's aware that  2 other people than Woosimlaxha claims --  3 THE COURT:  Yes.  And he said he doesn't know about that.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, that's correct, my lord.  5 MR. GRANT:  And I objected to that question.  6 THE COURT:  I don't see why you should object to that question,  7 Mr. Grant.  8 MR. GRANT:  Well, my friend asked Woosimlaxha claims.  That is a  9 statement of a topographic sheet that refers to  10 certain informants, it does not refer to Woosimlaxha.  11 THE COURT:  Well, he asked the question and he might have got a  12 yes answer.  He got a no answer.  There's nothing  13 wrong with the question.  The answer is all right for  14 you and it's not so good for Mr. Grant, but I don't  15 think the question is objectionable, but now we go on  16 from there.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  And well, I submit that topographical data sheet  18 as the next exhibit for identification, my lord.  19 MR. GRANT:  I would object to the map going in.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, the map's just an aide-memoire to assist  21 your lordship --  22 THE COURT:  All right.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  In the location of that mountain.  We're going  24 to refer to that map again, I hope.  25 THE COURT:  Well, under the arrangement that counsel have, as  26 Mr. Mackenzie explained yesterday, it seems to me that  27 this topographic survey sheet may be marked for  28 identification.  29 MR. GRANT:  Oh, yes, on the same terms as yesterday.  30 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  So that will be exhibit —  31 THE REGISTRAR:  817.  32 THE COURT:  817.  33 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.  34 THE COURT:  For identification.  35  36 EXHIBIT 817 FOR IDENTIFICATION - Topographical  37 survey sheet  38  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  40 58    Q   Mr. Robinson, there's a reference to P. Samson.  Do  41 you know someone by that name?  42 A   There's a lot of Samsons.  There's Perry Samson, I  43 believe there's another -- another Samson that I know  44 in the past quite a few years ago.  45 59    Q   And do you know Agnes Travers?  46 A   Yes.  47 60    Q   And she's a Gitksan lady? 9861  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Um-hum.  2 61    Q   And does she live in Gitanmaax?  3 A   Does she live in Gitanmaax?  4 62    Q   Yes?  5 A   No.  6 63    Q   Where does she live?  7 A   Glen Vowell.  8 64    Q   Yes?  9 A   Sika Doax Reserve.  10 65    Q   This is one of the earliest pieces of information we  11 have in Mr. Sterritt's notes.  Your testimony is that  12 you started meeting with him sometime in 1976 as well,  13 is that correct?  14 A   Yes.  I was meeting with him, but I've never seen that  15 and he never even asked me about him.  16 66    Q   No?  17 A   But you can see that little paragraph in -- that he  18 put in there, that's way after that 76, that's when I  19 told him about that, when I went in with Alfred Danes,  20 Nika Te'en.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  I just point that out to your Lordship,  22 there's a reference to Mr. Robinson's information,  23 number 9, remarks.  24 THE COURT:  Yes, I see that.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  26 67    Q   Dated May 28, 1979.  We've talked about these  27 different pieces of information that Mr. Sterritt had  28 over the years, 1976, and we saw some -- several from  29 1979 finally — or not finally — in 1987 finally you  30 swore an affidavit and interrogatories, didn't you?  31 A   Yes.  That's after we made arrangements with the court  32 case.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  And your affidavit, your interrogatories  34 affidavit was sworn on February 3, 1987.  I've handed  35 you a copy.  Spookw interrogatory is marked as an  36 exhibit in this proceeding.  The affidavit is Exhibit  37 334, and interrogatories 10, 15 and 27 were marked at  38 that time.  39 THE COURT:  334?  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  41 THE COURT:  Thank you.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  43 68    Q   And now I have -- now I'm filing this affidavit an  44 exhibit and interrogatory 59(c), so I submit, my lord,  45 that it would be -- oh, I see that 59(c) has been  46 marked as Exhibit 335, so there's no need to mark  47 this, my lord.  Now I'm going to refer to this 9862  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 affidavit, and paragraph 3 you swear that the answers  2 attached are true to the best of your knowledge;  3 that's true, Mr. -- do you swear that, Mr. Robinson?  4 A   On the —  5 69    Q   Paragraph 3?  6 A   On the third page here?  7 MR. GRANT:  Second page.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  9 70    Q   Second page.  10 A   Second page?  I believe it is true because I signed  11 it.  12 71    Q   Very good.  And attached to this affidavit were --  13 were certain answers, weren't they, and one of them  14 was answer 59(c), and you were asked what are the  15 boundaries of your house's territory, and you replied:  16  17 "The approximate boundaries of Spookw's territory  18 are included in the map which is set out in  19 schedule C, except my fishing sites, and" --  20 MR. GRANT:  If I can just interject, apparently 334 includes  21 59(c), Exhibit 335 is the map.  22 THE COURT:  Thank you.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  24 72    Q   Those aren't our notes, my lord.  I guess we can  25 verify that.  And just handing over the map that was  26 attached, that's Exhibit 335, and that's a map of  27 Seeley Lake and the territory around it, isn't it,  28 correct, Mr. Robinson?  Do you see Seeley Lake there?  29 A   Yes, right here.  30 73    Q   Does your lordship see Seeley Lake?  31 A   Yes.  32 74    Q   And so those are the approximate boundaries of  33 Spookw's territory, as you indicated in 1987; is that  34 correct, Mr. Robinson?  35 A   That's correct, yes.  36 75    Q   And those were -- and that which you're claiming  37 today?  38 A   That's what I am claiming for the Spookw.  39 76    Q   Is that all you're claiming today?  40 A   No.  That's just the west part of it.  41 77    Q   So what you're claiming today includes more than  42 what's shown on this map, Exhibit 335?  43 A   It includes more than what's shown on this map.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  In your affidavit in paragraph 40, I'm talking  45 about the affidavit, Exhibit 592.  4 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  47 MR. MACKENZIE: 9863  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 78    Q   You say that Nika Te'en's territory goes to the 1,400  2 foot contour?  3 A   Yes.  4 79    Q   Yes.  So that's not what's shown on your map, Exhibit  5 335, is it?  6 A  Well, that's the -- Nika Te'en's territory is on the  7 east boundary of this.  8 80    Q   So that shows a much larger territory than you say now  9 is owned by Nika Te'en, is that correct?  10 A   You show me the map and then I'll tell you whether  11 it's -- this is Spookw's map, not Nika Te'en's.  12 81    Q   Well, I'm just mentioning you have Nika Te'en shown?  13 A   Yes, Nika Te'en's shown, but there's supposed to be  14 lines there, and then I can identify to you whether  15 it's right or not, if it is, if it isn't.  16 82    Q   Yes.  Well, there are lines shown, there are other  17 boundaries shown on this map, as you can see from Luu  18 ska yak yak on the right-hand side of the boundary  19 seems to go east along the height of land there above  20 Gwis Guyen, and then it goes south down to Staix  21 Kaiyet for the other neighbouring territories.  22 83    Q   I take it now you say -- you would say that that's not  23 Nika Te'en's boundary going along the top of the  24 mountains there?  25 A   Not along the top of the mountain.  It's lower.  26 84    Q   Yes?  27 A   Lower than Spookw's boundary right on top of the  2 8 mountain.  29 85    Q   Spookw's boundary goes along the top of the mountain?  30 A  Along the top, right up on top, and then it goes down  31 to Luu ska yak yak.  32 86    Q   It goes over Mud Flat Creek, doesn't it?  33 A   Yes.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, the contours are shown on this map, you  35 can see -- your lordship will see 2,500, for example,  36 and the 1,500 foot contour is just south of Seeley  37 Lake.  That can be followed around to get an idea of  38 where 1,400 foot contour is for Nika Te'en.  39 MR. GRANT:  The interrogatory answer of course speaks for  40 itself, as the witness has already explained that  41 this -- he was describing her or referring to this map  42 for Spookw's territory, not Nika Te'en's.  43 THE COURT:  Well, where is Hagwilget Peak on this map?  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  It's not on this map, my lord.  45 THE COURT:  It's off to the right-hand side?  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  47 87    Q   Yes, my lord.  Well, Stekyawdenhl, will that be 9864  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  Hagwilget Peak, just at the edge of that map there?  A   Oh, that's that small little peak, that is half-way  down.  Q   Yes?  A  Well, there's a lot of names to that, and you know,  but the best name that I know is Stekyawdenhl.  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  So it's off to the right of this map, my  lord.  COURT:  Yes.  Well, Exhibit 5, which we looked at yesterday,  shows this territory as Spookw crossing through --  crossing south of Hagwilget Peak and extending down to  the Bulkley River, does it not?  MACKENZIE:  Yes, that's correct.  That's what Exhibit 5  shows, my lord.  Your lordship will see the present --  on map 9-A where the present claim is.  COURT:  This easterly boundary on Exhibit 335 would be on  the west side of Hagwilget Peak, would it not?  MACKENZIE:  That's correct, my lord.  COURT:  Yes, all right.  MACKENZIE:  And no mention of Wii'goob'l on your map,  Exhibit 335, is there, Mr. Robinson?  GRANT:  On the actual exhibit there is a reference to  Wii'goob'1.  MACKENZIE:  Does the name Wii'goob'l appear on the actual  exhibit?  GRANT:  Yes, it does.  I believe that in examination -- or  in cross-examination this -- that name was put on  either by -- in examination of either Miss Wilson  Kenni or Mr. Sterritt, but on our copy of the exhibit  is noted that on the original exhibit it is now noted.  MACKENZIE:  But it was not on the exhibit that was filed  with the interrogatory?  COURT:  No.  MACKENZIE:  Q   I'm sorry, my lord, I wasn't present for that part of  Mr. Sterritt's cross-examination.  Well, Mr. Robinson,  you said and you swore that those were the approximate  boundaries.  You saw this map, I take it, when you  signed your affidavit, is that right?  A   Not this particular map.  I've got -- I've got the  whole thing here that I think it's -- but that  includes the map that I have seen, and you see this is  the -- this is the lower part of Spookw's territory,  and Wii'goob'l is right at Daxs O'op, you can see just  a little -- your honour, you can see just a little  circle just below Seeley Lake there, just more or less  a little nitch there.  1  2  3  4  88  5  6  7  MR.  8  9  THE  10  11  12  13  MR.  14  15  16  THE  17  18  MR.  19  THE  20  MR.  21  22  MR.  23  24  MR.  25  26  MR.  27  28  29  30  31  MR.  32  33  THE  34  MR.  35  89  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 9865  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  Yes?  2 A   That's Daxs O'op.  That's Wii'goob'l's, and it goes  3 down until it hits -- joins with the Chicago Creek,  4 and that's how far it is.  Can you see that?  5 THE COURT:  Yes.  Daxs O'op is marked on the copy of Exhibit 335  6 that I have.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's right.  8 MR. GRANT:  I believe it was marked on the original map as well,  9 attached to the interrogatory.  10 MR. MACKENZIE:  11 90    Q   So when you signed the interrogatory affidavit you saw  12 this map which is Exhibit 335?  13 A   I saw the whole map, but the boundaries here are  14 correct between -- but the Nika Te'en's boundary  15 should be a little lower than the top boundary of  16 Spookw?  Nika te'en's boundary comes up Gwin  17 Sagiiblax.  18 91    Q   Station Creek?  19 A   Yes.  And then it leaves and goes south-west and up to  20 about 1,400 feet level of Stekyoodenhl, and then it  21 comes and joins in at Station Creek -- I mean, what do  22 you call it, Chicago Creek.  23 92    Q   You approved this map, Exhibit 335, when you signed  24 your affidavit, your interrogatory affidavit, did you?  25 A   If this map goes down and follows the Chicago Creek --  26 THE COURT:  Well, it does, doesn't it?  27 A  What creek is this here?  Is that Chicago Creek?  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  You don't understand the Gitksan name that's on  29 that creek?  30 THE COURT:  It looks like G-I-I-S?  31 A   Xsakwhl Giist, that's what it is.  Xsakwhl Giist is  32 just from Seeley Lake down.  33 THE COURT:  That's Chicago Creek, isn't it?  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  35 A   No.  That's —  36 THE COURT:  Seeley Creek?  37 A   Yeah.  That's how I know it, but Chicago Creek is the  38 one that comes in and joins with Xsakwhl Giist.  39 THE COURT:  With Seeley Creek?  40 A   Yes.  41 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, you will see that this map seems  43 to coincide just in a general way with the eastern  44 part of Spookw showing on Exhibit 5.  4 5 THE COURT:  Yes.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  47 93    Q   And there was a western part of Spookw being claimed 9866  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  in 1987 also, wasn't there, Mr. Robinson -- I'm sorry,  I beg your pardon.  It shows the western part as shown  on Exhibit 5, and in the middle was Nika Te'en and  Gyetm Galdoo on Exhibit 5, but you say there's no  Gyetm Galdoo there now?  A   There's no Gyetm Galdoo there, not what I know of, not  what I was told when I was told about the land.  THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Robinson, are you -- is it your evidence  that on this map that you have in front of you,  Exhibit 335, your south-western boundary should be  along the 1,400 foot elevation?  A   Nika Te'en's should be 1,400.  THE COURT:  Well, then yours should as well, should it?  A  Mine should be above it.  THE COURT:  Above it?  A   Yeah.  But my boundary goes right to the peak.  Nika  Te'en's just goes so high.  So what you're saying is that on this map Nika  Te'en's territory to the west of --  MACKENZIE:  Or east.  COURT:  To the east -- I'm sorry, to the east of your  territory should be at the 1,400 foot elevation?  A   Yes.  COURT:  Who's above him?  A   That's all Spookw on the top part.  COURT:  I see, all right.  MACKENZIE:  Q   Well, Mr. Robinson, if this map didn't show all of  Spookw's territory on the top part, why did you  approve it?  My affidavit said -- you can read my affidavit -- said  it's bigger than what is shown here.  I'm talking about your interrogatories affidavit?  Well, this is what it says.  It covers right to Yak  yak, it's supposed to.  It's supposed to but it doesn't on the map, does it?  Not the one that you showed me.  MACKENZIE:  No.  Now, in your affidavit, just moving on to  the next subject, I'm finished with this Exhibit 335  now, my lord.  MR. GRANT:  Well, I'll leave it for redirect, but there's an  Exhibit 336, but I will -- which reflects some of what  the witness has said, but I'll leave that for  redirect.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  MR. GRANT:  I'm just cautioning my friend in case he wants to  raise it himself.  THE COURT  MR.  THE  THE  THE  MR.  94  A  Q  A  Q  A  95  96  MR. 9867  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  2 97    Q   No.  I'm not going to go into 336 with you, but I will  3 ask your lordship to cast his mind back to when these  4 maps were -- when this map came out in Dora Wilson  5 Kenni's examination we found out that one map had come  6 to British Columbia and a different map had gone to  7 Canada and there were differences in the names, but I  8 don't want to get into that because it doesn't form  9 part of my examination -- cross-examination.  Now, Mr.  10 Robinson, in your affidavit you say that Spookw has a  11 territory separate from Yagosip, correct?  12 A   Yes.  13 98    Q   But in fact, Spookw and Yagosip shared the same  14 territories, didn't they?  15 A  Well, they don't have no arguments to go on each  16 other's territory, if that's what you mean.  17 99    Q   What I'm saying is that Spookw and Yagosip really have  18 the same territory, and as you say, Yagosip holds the  19 treasure chest?  20 A   He holds a treasure chest of his own.  21 100   Q   Really Spookw has no land because they're both  22 together?  23 A   Not actually, because it says Spookw has his own land,  24 but the way it is, you know, when they have a feast  25 and there's a feast -- you see, why should there be a  26 map if Spookw has no land, why should I sign an  27 affidavit that I'm speaking for Spookw?  28 101   Q   Well, that's right.  29 A  And that the land that I know it belongs to Spookw is  30 the land that we are talking about.  31 102   Q   Well, you've told me —  32 A   You see, the land that I sign an affidavit on is the  33 land around the Stekyoodenhl and all the way through  34 to Yak yak Creek, and then Yagosip is on the north  35 side of the Bulkley River and up Kispiox River.  36 103   Q   Well, you told Neil Sterritt in 1981 that Yagosip  37 holds the land, she holds the treasure chest, she  38 holds the treasure chest, but Spookw has no land?  39 A  Well, according to myself I have no land, although I  40 got the Spookw's name, that's me, but Spookw has land.  41 104   Q   Yeah.  But —  42 A   The reason why I say this, you go across southbound  43 and you find -- try to look for a place where you can  44 set a trap.  You can't find it because it's all farms,  45 and you go east from New Hazleton.  They're all lined  4 6              up with farms there.  47 105   Q   That's not what you were speaking about? 9868  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  3  4  5  106  Q  6  7  A  8  9  10  107  Q  11  12  A  13  14  108  Q  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  A  27  28  29  30  109  Q  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  110  Q  39  A  40  41  111  Q  42  A  43  44  45  112  Q  46  A  47  113  Q  That's what I meant when I said it, and if you don't  believe what I'm talking about you must be reading my  mind or even saying -- putting things, you know, into  my own ideas, but that wasn't my idea.  Well, do you recall telling -- you do recall telling  Neil Sterritt that Spookw has no land?  Well, he came to me and he said -- you know, he says  "You've got land", he says.  I got no land, I just  told him, just like that, and that's what I meant.  And you told him that Yagosip was looking after the  hunting ground for Spookw?  Well, not generally Spookw, she's looking after her  own hunting ground.  Now, this is a note dated December 31, 1981, page 37  and page 38.  And at the bottom -- you're speaking  about the feast hall seating and the  inter-relationship between Spookw and Yagosip and all  the family, and then down at the bottom Neil Sterritt  writes, number 3:  "Yagosip is Andims'ax in Spookw's house meaning she  holds the treasure chest to the land.  Spookw has  no land."  That's what you said to Neil Sterritt, isn't it?  Well, I said it, that's because, you know, he asked me  to represent -- and then I looked around and I said  "Where's my land, looks like I got no land, it's all  farmed".  And then on the next page, page 38, at the top, Neil  Sterritt writes "Yagosip", and there's a Gitksan  sentence, he says:  "Looking after the hunting ground for Spookw."  Did you tell Neil Sterritt that as well?  No, I didn't.  So Neil Sterritt is wrong when you wrote that down?  I guess he just even the sitting here in the feast  hall is wrong too.  Yes.  So he made quite a few errors in that?  Yes.  That's an error, you see, you know, that's  unintentional.  It's not meant to be, because he's  just working for the chiefs.  Yes, that's right.  That's what, you know, you can make mistakes.  Yes? 9869  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2  114  Q  3  A  4  MR.  MACKE  5  6  7  THE  COURT  8  9  10  11  12  THE  COURT  13  14  MR.  MACKE  15  115  Q  16  A  17  116  Q  18  A  19  117  Q  20  21  A  22  23  24  THE  COURT  25  26  27  28  MR.  GRANT  29  THE  COURT  30  MR.  GRANT  31  32  33  34  THE  COURT  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  41  MR.  GRANT  42  43  THE  COURT  44  45  MR.  GRANT  46  47  THE  COURT  Even you can make mistake.  Yes?  I can make mistakes.  JZIE:  Yes.  We've seen a couple of your mistakes, and  mine as well.  I submit that as the next exhibit, my  lord.  :  I'm sorry, 818 for identification, two pages.  EXHIBIT 818 FOR IDENTIFICATION - Notes of Neil  Sterritt dated December 29, 1981 to April 24, 1982  Andims'ax is joint chieftainship of a house, is  not?  Is that what it means?  it  Andims'ax?  Andims'ax.  At the bottom of page 37, number 3?  37?  You see that number 3 where Yagosip is Andims'ax in  Spookw's house?  I don't know, I'm a stupid Indian too.  I don't even  understand, you know.  The way it's pronounced I don't  know if you can pronounce it properly.  My recollection is that we had it in the evidence of  Mr. Art Matthews.  I think this is the word where  there were two chiefs usually of equal standing in the  same house.  Yes.  I don't recall that word, so I'm not --  All right.  I remember the evidence of Mr. Matthews regarding  that.  There was the Wilksiwitxw, but there was also  this other term that he used.  I don't recall it as  being that word, and I can't --  I think our Madam word person has something to tell  us about this?  Yes.  I'm sorry, your honour, that I can't explain the  meaning of that word because there's a lot of these --  the words in our own language is that it takes a  little older people like Arthur Matthews and -- would  know, understand the meaning of it.  It appears that Miss Howard is having difficulty  with that word as it's spelled as well.  Yes.  Well, I'm far from satisfied that my  recollection is accurate.  I think I can check that.  I know exactly what  you're referring to in Mr. Matthews' evidence.  Yes, all right, thank you. 9870  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, does your lordship have any objection  2 to the word person giving the meaning to that word?  3 THE COURT:  No.  But she doesn't know, she says.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm sorry.  5 THE COURT:  Or she's unsure.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  That was marked as an exhibit, my lord?  7 THE COURT:  Yes, 818.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, I've just handed to Mr. Robinson and  9 your lordship an excerpt from Exhibit 102, which as  10 your lordship will recall was prepared in October,  11 1985.  12 MR. GRANT:  That was the draft map prepared, I believe, for  13 counsel for the plaintiffs.  14 THE COURT:  Yes.  15 MR. GRANT:  And Glen Williams discussed that in his evidence,  16 and he and Neil Sterritt, is that right, put it  17 together.  It was the end product of their research,  18 that's Mr. Williams' evidence.  Now, I've taken the  19 liberty of highlighting in yellow, just I don't think  20 that was the end result, that's because it was a draft  21 map prepared at that stage.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm sorry, yes, my friend is correct.  2 3 THE COURT:  Yes.  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  Product of the research, but my friend says a  25 draft map, and I've added the key that appears on that  26 Exhibit 102 to this map and I am referring the court  27 and Mr. Robinson to the highlighted area, 1C-10, which  28 seems to -- appears to be Lax Gibuu, Gitanmaax,  29 Spookw, Yagosip.  30 MR. GRANT:  Which is also map 4 on our desk copy, my lord, on  31 these.  32 THE COURT:  Yes, fine.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  34 118   Q   So we're looking at the Seeley Lake territory.  That's  35 described as Spookw-Yagosip isn't it, and that just  36 includes Seeley Lake, doesn't it, Mr. Robinson?  37 A   No.  I couldn't even read this map here.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, can you say whether the boundaries of the  39 land that you're claiming for Spookw are different  40 from the ones shown in here, 1C-10, highlighted in  41 yellow?  42 MR. GRANT:  There are three lC-10's, and he just said he  43 couldn't read them.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  45 119   Q   South of South Hazelton?  46 A   1C-10?  47 120   Q   Yeah. 9871  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   That's the south part of -- the west part of -- that's  2 the same map that the working map that you showed me.  3 121   Q   Exhibit 335, your interrogatory map, yes?  4 A   That's a part of the territory that Spookw is  5 claiming.  6 122   Q   Yes.  Is that the same with the next one up,  7 north-east of New Hazleton, is that the land that  8 Spookw and Yagosip are claiming -- I'm sorry -- is  9 that the land that Yagosip is claiming?  10 A   Yagosip, is that Xsi Luu Guu'asxw?  11 123   Q   Yes.  You gave a Gitksan name, but could you -- would  12 you agree with me, Mr. Robinson, that what appears on  13 this map as 1C-10, those areas around Hazelton are  14 different from the areas that are being claimed in  15 your affidavit today?  16 A   This area here is.  17 THE COURT:  Which one is here, please?  18 A   1C-10 on —  19 THE COURT:  But which one?  20 A   On the north side of Bulkley, I think.  21 THE COURT:  Well, it's north side of the Suskwa, isn't it?  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, my lord — the Suskwa, that's right, Suskwa.  23 East of Bulkley, north of Suskwa.  2 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  25 MR. GRANT:  The witness was asking about the name of the creek,  26 which appears to be Xsan Logix X-S-A-N L-O-G-I-X.  Do  27 you have the section he's now referring to, my lord?  2 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  29 A   You see, the boundary goes down here, you see, that's  30 just a little portion here.  31 MR. GRANT:  I'm just going to ask Madam Interpreter to pronounce  32 that word for the witness?  33 THE TRANSLATOR:  Xsan Logix.  34 MR. GRANT:  Madam, it's hard to tell whether it's an 0 or an A.  35 THE COURT:  But you're saying, Mr. Mackenzie, that that IC-10,  36 bounded on the south by the Suskwa and the Bulkley, is  37 different on this map from what is described in the  38 witness' territorial affidavit, are you?  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  4 0 THE COURT:  All right.  41 MR. GRANT:  You can see the distinction on Exhibit 646, I  42 believe it is, the overlays, because this map here,  43 map 4, is underlaid under 9-A, and you can see the  44 difference on that between the two, my lord.  45 THE COURT:  Yeah.  Well, perhaps —  46 MR. GRANT:  He said the one Yagosip is claiming, and he was  47 pointing to some area on the map. 9872  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie, don't you have an answer to your  2 question already.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  4 THE COURT:  By the means Mr. Grant has just described?  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, that's correct, my lord.  6 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  That's why I'm unsure about this, because it's  7 already been canvassed extensively with Mr. Sterritt,  8 and the plaintiffs themselves have introduced maps  9 which show these very differences my friend is trying  10 to establish.  If that's -- he may want to prove  11 something else of the witness, but if that's what he's  12 trying to prove, that's already been proven.  13 THE COURT:  This may be the first step in proving something, but  14 I don't know, seems to me that we have an answer to  15 that question, Mr. Mackenzie.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  17 THE COURT:  You're free to go on from there.  Perhaps this is a  18 convenient time while the witness is familiarizing  19 himself with the map if we were to take the morning  2 0 adjournment.  21 THE REGISTRAR:  Order In court.  22  23 (MORNING RECESS TAKEN)  24  25 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  2 6 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  28 124   Q   In your affidavit, your territorial affidavit Exhibit  29 592, you speak about Woosimlaxha territory in section  30 B of your affidavit, correct?  31 A   Yes.  I believe so.  32 125   Q   Yes.  And you say that Woosimlaxha's boundary goes  33 along the Salmon River, Shegunia River to the Skeena?  34 A   That's correct.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Now, my lord, if your lordship can take a  36 look at that map that I handed up showing Mount Glen,  37 your lordship will see that Shegunia River just north.  38 THE COURT:  Just a moment, Mount Glen, yes?  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  Your Lordship, we're not going to deal with  40 Exhibit -- yes, does your lordship see Shegunia River  41 there in Kispiox, flows into the Skeena River just at  42 Kispiox, the Shegunia River?  43 THE COURT:  There's so many crooked lines here, some are  44 contours and some are rivers.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  Does your lordship see the Kispiox Indian  4 6 Reserve?  47 THE COURT:  I've — I see where — does it flow into the Skeena 9873  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 just at Kispiox?  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  3 THE COURT:  Yes.  I have it, thank you.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, we became very familiar with that area  5 when we dealt -- when Pete Muldoe gave us that  6 evidence.  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  And this map -- a copy of this map was put in as  9 an exhibit at that time.  10 THE COURT:  Yes.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  12 126   Q   With certain other notations on it.  So you say  13 Woosimlaxha's boundary goes right along the Shegunia  14 River to the Skeena River?  15 A   Yes.  16 127   Q   Yes.  All along the southern boundary -- I'm sorry,  17 all along the southern shore of Shegunia River?  18 A   Yes.  19 THE COURT:  What paragraph of the affidavit are you talking  2 0 about now?  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  On page 5, paragraph 12, my lord.  22 THE COURT:  Thank you.  23 MR. GRANT:  Well, my friend is talking about the Yagosip  24 territory on page 5, paragraph 12, he indicated, as I  25 was confused as well.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm sorry, I'm referring to —  27 MR. GRANT:  Paragraph 19 I believe is what you're referring to.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, that's right.  I beg your pardon.  I beg  29 your pardon, it's paragraph on page 6, my lord.  It's  30 the Robinson Lake territory, and your lordship can see  31 the description is given there, starting with Shegunia  32 joins the Skeena, the line runs up the Shegunia seven  3 3 mi1e s.  34 THE COURT:  Yes.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  Does your lordship have that reference?  3 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  And now, Mr. Robinson, if someone — Mr. Peter  38 Muldoe said that his Gitludahl territory ran along the  39 south bank of the Shegunia River for five miles about  40 one mile south of the river -- I'm referring to Mr.  41 Muldoe's evidence, volume 102, 6410.  42 THE COURT:  My first problem with that, Mr. Mackenzie, is one on  43 the south bank and one on the north bank.  If so,  44 there's no problem.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, my friend — Mr. Robinson I think  46 has agreed that his territory -- Woosimlaxha's  47 territory runs along the south bank of the Shegunia 9874  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 River.  2 THE COURT:  All right, yep.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  4 128   Q   And that's true, isn't it?  5 A   To my knowledge it is, yeah.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Thank you, my lord, for clarifying that.  7 THE COURT:  And you say that Pete Muldoe said that his  8 territory --  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  Gitludahl.  10 THE COURT:  Gitludahl runs along the south side of Shegunia for  11 five miles?  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  13 THE COURT:  Yes.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  15 129   Q   Do you know about that Gitludahl territory on the  16 south bank of the Shegunia River?  17 A   You mean the south bank, or the Gitludahl, or  18 Woosimlaxha?  19 130   Q   Gitludahl?  20 A   Gitludahl?  That's the territory on the north -- no,  21 the only person or the house that I know is Gutginuxw,  22 but I believe he has a working relation with Gitludahl  23 in some areas in that area, especially the berry patch  2 4 in some.  25 131   Q   Collins Lake?  26 A  Ansa matja, Collins Lake.  That's Collins lake in that  27 area really belongs to Gutginuxw, and the person that  28 worked there, that area that I remember is 'Niis gimii  2 9 nuu.  30 132   Q   That's Alvin Weget?  31 A   That's Gutginuxw's house.  32 133   Q   That's Alvin Weget?  33 A   No.  That is Andrew Crosby.  34 134   Q   And now it's Alvin Weget?  35 A   It was Alvin Weget, and he put it on James Woods, and  36 then when James Woods passed away and then he took it  37 back again.  38 135   Q   Alvin Weget took it back again, and he has it now?  39 A   He has 'Niis gimii nuu?  You see, like --  40 MR. GRANT:  Just I think the witness said he's 'Niis gimii nuu,  41 and he's Dinii also?  42 A   That's right.  43 MR. GRANT:  And I also would ask that the witness be asked to  44 complete his answer.  My friend interjected.  45 A   You see, when Andrew Crosby, the late Niis gimii nuu  46 was working, and he's from Gutginuxw's house, and then  47 when he passed away and Maxhlatk'a'atxw was working 9875  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 that line, was also named Baluu, that's Willie Smart,  2 and through the relationship of Willie Smart and  3 myself is my -- he's my brother-in-law.  So I went  4 with him at one time over in some other -- into  5 Shimogyet(?), and then he explained to me, that's how  6 I know 'Niis gimii nuu owned that area and -- I mean  7 Gutginuxw and all his house?  Willie Smart had two  8 names, Maxhlatk'a'atxw and Baluu, and when he passed  9 away Alvin took over.  10 136   Q   Alvin Weget is Niis gimii nuu?  11 A  Alvin Weget is.  12 137   Q   Alvin Weget is now a chief in the House of Gitludahl?  13 A  A chief in the house of Gitludahl, yes.  14 138   Q   Pete Muldoe said he had Gitludahl territory on the  15 south bank of Shegunia.  Do you agree with that?  16 A   It's not a matter of agreeing, but I have no knowledge  17 of it.  18 139   Q   You don't know anything about Gitludahl territory on  19 south bank of Shegunia?  20 A  All I know, it belongs to Gutginuxw, the House of  21 Gutginuxw, and all his relatives worked there.  22 140   Q   I'm talking about south bank of Shegunia?  23 A   That's -- well, that's the south bank.  24 141   Q   I'm talking about south bank of Shegunia.  You say it  25 belongs to whom?  26 A   Gutginuxw.  In from south bank up Pine Nut all through  27 that area.  28 142   Q   Now I'm asking you about Gitludahl territory.  Along  29 the Shegunia River but south of Shegunia River do you  30 deny Gitludahl has territory south of the Shegunia  31 River?  32 A   I'm sorry.  I have no business to deny or agree, this  33 is not why I'm sitting here, because I am representing  34 Woosimlaxha, and then and now just the witness to  35 identify who is on the border of Woosimlaxha and the  36 next chief.  And that's all I know, sir, is Gutginuxw.  37 THE COURT:  I'm not sure that I have grasped the significance of  38 what the witness is saying about Gutginuxw.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  Could I attempt to summarize what the witness is  40 saying?  41 THE COURT:  If you would, please?  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  Without Mr. Grant interjecting.  43 MR. GRANT:  I just refer you to the map.  If you see the  44 Shegunia River, which you have, then you can see Pine  45 Nut north of there.  Those are the geographical  46 references that the witness has referred to, Shegunia,  47 and then north you see where the W.M. is in on this 9876  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  THE  COURT  3  MR.  GRANT  4  5  6  7  8  THE  COURT  9  10  MR.  GRANT  11  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  GRANT  14  15  16  THE  COURT  17  18  A  19  20  21  THE  COURT  22  A  23  THE  COURT  24  A  25  26  27  28  THE  COURT  29  A  30  31  32  THE  COURT  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  MR.  macke:  39  143  Q  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  144  Q  aide-memoire.  :  Yes.  :  If you go along that to the right, just between  where it says Skeena and Province, you see Pine Nut.  Now, that's the reference the witness is referring to  when he says about the territory between Shegunia as  far up as Pine Nut.  :  Well, I thought that the questions were directed to  the area south of the Shegunia.  :  Yes.  And he said up from the south banks, so he's  talking about from the south bank up to Pine Nut.  :  He's talking about north of the Shegunia.  :  Yes.  From the south bank as far north as Pine Nut,  so it would encompass what he's describing, it would  encompass the river.  :  Well, you say, Mr. Robinson, that Woosimlaxha has  the south bank of the Shegunia?  The south bank, your Honour, from the south bank of  Shegunia to Xsi mahla gan right across from Glen  Vowell.  :  Yes.  That's the area that belongs to Woosimlaxha.  :  How far south does it go from the Shegunia?  You see, you come down from Shegunia and then you  follow it down the river, middle of the Skeena River,  and then it comes -- you see Shegunia Ranch there, I  guess you can't.  :  No.  But there's a little creek that comes from Dam O'osit  that runs down and follows down and comes out across  from Glen Vowell village.  :  All right.  And then it follows up, it goes kind of a north-east,  that's my own estimation, and then it leaves that  creek and heads towards in between Dam O'osit and Lax  lix hetxwit, that's the mountain in question here,  that's Nika Te'en.  JZIE:  Mount Glen?  You see, and it goes around and it comes Dam lax  andatw, that's Robinson Lake, and it comes down  between Robinson Lake and Lax lix hetxwit, that was  Wooimlaxha's territory on the north side, and it hit  Shegunia, Two Mile Creek about half or three-quarter  miles below Da lax andatw, that's Robinson Lake, and  follows down Two Mile Creek until it hits Xsan Ando'o.  Bulkley River? 9877  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A   Bulkley River, and it comes down --  THE COURT:  All right.  A  And it comes right around.  That's -- you know, I'm  tying in Nika te'en's.  THE COURT:  So the territory between Shegunia and Two Mile Creek  west of the Skeena is Woosimlaxha's territory?  A   Not all.  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  145  146  147  148  MACKENZIE:  East of the Skeena, my lord.  COURT  A  COURT  A  A  COURT  East of the Skeena, I'm sorry.  You see, not all of it, you see, and then, you know,  you come to -- you come to Xsan Ando'o, you follow me?  Yes.  That's Bulkley River.  And you go up and then you get  to a creek that's Four Mile Creek on the map, Xsan luu  guu asxw, that's what we call that, and it goes up to  the head of Xsan luu guu asxw and goes up on the Lax  andatw Mountain, that's the Nine Mile Mountain, they  call it.  MACKENZIE:  That's not on the map.  COURT:  No, all right.  So you're not aware of any territory  owned by Gitludahl in that area south of Shegunia  Creek?  No.  Not that I know of.  All right.  MACKENZIE:  Q   Thank you, my lord.  So, Mr. Robinson, we've discussed  several of the territories in your affidavit:  Spookw,  and Nika Te'en, and Woosimlaxha, and I'm suggesting to  you that over the years there was much uncertainty  about the names and the ownership of the features in  those territories.  Do you agree or disagree with  that?  You know, I don't know anything about the disagreement  or agreement because the only things that I know, it's  the people that advised me about these territories.  And you know that Neil Sterritt received a lot of  differing opinions about the ownership of these  territories?  Not that I know of.  But what in effect you were trying to do with Neil  Sterritt was prepare a case for the land claims,  weren't you?  Partially, yes, but not all.  You had to make all the pieces fit together so you  could show that all the land was owned --  I'm not the only teamster.  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  And it was Neil Sterritt who really 987?  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  Was the witness finished his answer?  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well —  3 THE COURT:  I thought he was.  4 MR. GRANT:  Oh, okay.  I wasn't watching, I just heard.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  6 149   Q   And it was Neil Sterritt who pulled all the pieces  7 together for the land claim, wasn't it?  8 A   He was instructed by the chiefs.  9 150   Q   And you're still uncertain about who owns different  10 parts of those territories, aren't you?  11 A   I'm not uncertain about what my affidavit is.  I know,  12 because I was taught by these people, told, and I  13 walked the area, sir.  14 151   Q   And no one really knows what the names of those  15 territories are, do they?  16 A   I guess I believe the owners know the names of the  17 territories.  18 152   Q   And the reason is because people had forgotten the  19 names of the features on the territories over the  20 years, hadn't they?  21 A   I can't verify on that because I don't know what is in  22 the other person's mind.  23 153   Q   People, the Indian people in Gitanmaax stopped going  24 out on the trapline, didn't they, after the 1940's?  25 A   I don't think so, because there's a lot of people  26 still going out on the traplines.  27 154   Q   And you don't have a registered trapline, do you?  2 8 A   No.  29 155   Q   And the people in Gitanmaax, including yourself, got  30 employment in the logging industry and the fishing  31 industry, didn't they?  32 A   I'm employed in a lot of things, sir.  33 156   Q   Yes.  You've done a lot of things as a fisherman?  34 A   Fisherman, yes.  35 157   Q   And driving the logs down the river, down the Skeena  36 River?  37 A   Yes.  38 158   Q   And working the pole camps?  39 A   Yes.  40 159   Q   So people weren't going out on the land anymore, they  41 were involved in getting income from those types of  42 industries, weren't they?  43 A  Well, it doesn't mean that you give up your land.  44 160   Q   Yes.  But you had to have something for the land  45 claims, something certain, didn't you?  4 6 A  Well, we don't have to have something, we know we got  47 the land that we're claiming. 9879  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  MR. I  4ACI  2  3  4  5  MR. (  SRAI  6  7  MR. I  4ACI  8  161  Q  9  10  A  11  162  Q  12  13  14  A  15  16  163  Q  17  A  18  164  Q  19  20  21  22  A  23  24  165  Q  25  26  A  27  166  Q  28  A  29  167  Q  30  A  31  168  Q  32  33  A  34  169  Q  35  36  A  37  170  Q  38  A  39  40  171  Q  41  42  43  A  44  45  172  Q  46  47  A  \FZIE:  And so you and Neil Sterritt got -- prepared  these affidavits and this map so that you would pull  it all together and have something certain to present  to his lordship, correct?  :  Which affidavits and which maps my friend is  referring to?  Is it the final one he's talking about?  >JZIE:  I'm talking about the territorial affidavit that you  swore and your other chiefs are swearing?  What other chiefs?  Even though you disagree with some of the information  in the affidavits and the testimony of other chiefs,  you don't say anything, do you?  Well, you know, if I disagree I let you know, but I  don't know nothing about what they're telling Neil.  And you -- that's right?  And I wasn't asked.  Sorry, that's right.  You don't say anything because  you and all your -- all the other people in your clan  and your tribe want to share in the land claims,  correct?  It's not just sharing, it's tell the government that  we own these lands, it's not sharing.  And these territories are being used by farmers,  correct; that's Spookw's territory?  Yes.  And by trappers?  Yes.  And they're mining up in Mount Glen and --  Yes.  And there are towns in those territories which you're  speaking about?  Yes.  And your sister, Joyce Turner, doesn't go trapping,  does she?  She generally goes out with her husband.  She doesn't have a registered trapline, does she?  No.  They're working.  Delbert got a registered  trapline, they're working on it.  So all these different opinions about the territories  were pulled together by Neil Sterritt in the  affidavit, correct?  It's not pulled by Neil Sterritt.  I told him what it  is and how it is.  And he got information from other people too, didn't  he?  I don't know. 9880  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  173  Q  2  3  A  4  174  Q  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  175  Q  19  20  21  A  22  176  Q  23  A  24  177  Q  25  A  26  27  178  Q  28  A  29  30  179  Q  31  32  33  A  34  180  Q  35  36  A  37  38  39  40  181  Q  41  42  43  A  44  45  182  Q  46  47  A  And he brought -- he pulled them all together and he  drafted an affidavit for you, didn't he?  I don't know who drafted it, but I read it.  And they brought you a draft affidavit, didn't they?  I told them what to put on the affidavit and I read  this through, and if there's any changes there I tell  them there's a -- this one here, maybe one line of  something that's not really correct, I tell them to  redo it, because I haven't got the education like most  people have like -- like the learned people like  yourself or the education like Mr. Sterritt and some  other people that are working with the tribal council,  and this is the reason why the chiefs lay the work on  these people, because they are educated and they can  put our language into the Indian -- English language  so that you people can understand what we're talking  about.  And someone came to you in 1988 with this draft  affidavit, that that's your draft affidavit of Exhibit  592 you're talking about today?  Yes.  And that was in what, June 198 8?  Yes.  I believe so.  And you saw the first draft?  I went to scan through it, but I noticed there's some  errors in it, and then I advised the changes.  And the boundaries were set out in that draft?  The boundaries, and that's the original boundaries  that I put on there.  And there they were set out in a lot of detail with  the -- the distances and the names of the features in  English when you got the affidavits?  Repeat that question again, please.  The descriptions of boundaries were in the draft when  you got to look at it?  I put the descriptions of the boundaries to the  person, that is right, taking these notes down, and I  told them the Indian names that I have learned from my  parents and other chiefs that I walked the land with.  Yes.  And the boundaries in this affidavit are not the  way you learned the boundary, the territories are  they?  Why should I -- if it's not true why should I put it  on there.  It's not in the language that people taught you, is  it?  It is in the language, because that's the only 51  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  183  Q  3  4  A  5  184  Q  6  7  8  A  9  185  Q  10  11  12  A  13  186  Q  14  A  15  187  Q  16  A  17  188  Q  18  19  20  A  21  22  189  Q  23  24  25  A  26  27  190  Q  28  29  A  30  31  191  Q  32  33  34  35  A  36  192  Q  37  A  38  39  193  Q  40  A  41  194  Q  42  A  43  44  45  195  Q  46  A  47  196  Q  language they know, is the Indian language.  These are not your words in these descriptions, are  they?  If they are from my mouth it can't be anybody else.  You just learned about creeks and lakes and features  of traplines when you were learning about the  territories?  Yes.  And then boundaries.  Yes.  And this -- the boundaries that are described in  the affidavit were written in the affidavit by someone  else, isn't that true?  By my directions, yes.  These are not your words, are they?  They are my words if they come from my mouth.  They don't come from your mouth, do they?  Yes.  It is just like I'm talking to you now.  Someone took your description of different features  and made it into a legal description in the boundary,  didn't they?  Not if you're going to go into a legal case as court  case, you have to make something legal.  You gave certain details to Mr. Sterritt, he  extrapolated and he prepared these boundary  descriptions, didn't he?  Well, he was advised by the chiefs to do all the  chiefs want.  He brought you the affidavit to sign and you signed  it?  I don't remember when he brought me the affidavit to  sign.  And when you signed it there were two important errors  in the affidavit; the one in paragraph 2 saying  Mediigemgyet and Guuhadak, you signed that because it  was wrong?  Because we are in the same house.  Did you see the error?  From the history -- historical, back in the history,  we are the same.  That's right.  We are Yagosip and Mediigemgyet.  So it was right?  And Wii Kaax, and you can go down the list and all  these people are in the same house in the historical  times.  That's right.  And that's why you signed it?  And that's why I belong to each others today.  That's right.  And that's why you signed it, because 32  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  it was correct, paragraph 2, wasn't it?  A   I signed it because I believe in the -- from the  beginning right from the past and everything is right.  Q   Someone else corrected it for you, didn't they?  A   I don't know who would correct it for me.  Q   And paragraph 13 there was another error, and  Gitludahl was crossed out, and who did that?  A   I noticed and acknowledged that it was in there, and  Gutginuxw, they're in the same house, and they're the  ones, and what's his name now, Woosimlaxha.  Q   So Mr. Grant corrected that paragraph 13, you didn't  correct it, did you?  A   I told him to.  We didn't know until I advised him to,  that's wrong.  Q   And you had -- the informants that you mentioned here  all died before 1974?  A   Yes.  Q   Yes.  You were told to mention only people who had  died, weren't you?  A   I wasn't told that, because they're the only people  that told me these, that teach me these.  Q   But there are other sources for your information in  this affidavit, aren't there?  A   No.  There's no other sources, there's the only source  that is I can put on there.  Q   You didn't learn about this material from anybody  other than these people who passed away?  A   Not that I remember.  Q   You didn't learn about this from any other living  people?  A   Not that I remember.  Q   And the information there we've gone over some of  these things, but there is information you gave to  Neil Sterritt in 1978 and after 1978 that's different  from the information in your affidavit today?  A   I don't know what you're talking about.  MACKENZIE:  And where did you get the information that you  gave to Neil Sterritt?  GRANT:  I would ask my friend to put -- refer him -- he's  referred this witness to a great deal of information.  If he's going to pinpoint one thing he should be fair  to the witness and refer to him what he's asking about  specifically.  COURT:  I think that's right, Mr. Mackenzie.  MACKENZIE:  Q   Fine, my lord, I'll withdraw the question.  And I'm  putting to you that you continued to learn about the  1  2  3  4  197  5  6  198  7  8  9  10  11  199  12  13  14  15  200  16  17  18  201  19  20  21  22  202  23  24  25  26  203  27  28  29  204  30  31  32  205  33  34  35  36  37  MR.  38  39  MR.  40  41  42  43  44  THE  45  MR.  46  206  47 33  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 territory after the death of your informants in this  2 affidavit, that's correct, isn't it?  3 A   Not this territory, the other territory outside.  4 207   Q   Yes.  And I'm suggesting to you that you continued to  5 talk to people after 1975 to learn more about Spookw's  6 territory and the other territories in your affidavit?  7 A   Not Spookw's territory, because I know Spookw's  8 territory.  9 208   Q   And you -- but you asked other people about the other  10 territories in your affidavits?  11 A   Not Yagosip's territory.  12 209   Q   Yes.  But Nika Te'en and Woosimlaxha?  13 A   Nika Te'en, I learned that from my father and the  14 former Nika Te'en, Alfred Danes.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  And you continued to learn after 1975,  16 didn't you?  17 MR. GRANT:  About Nika Te'en's territory?  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  19 210   Q   About Nika Te'en?  20 A  About Nika Te'en's area?  21 211   Q   Yes?  22 A   No.  I learned that when I was a young man, and I went  23 with Alfred Danes on Lax lix hetxwit and I thought it  24 was other people, and then, you know, I wanted to make  25 sure whose land is this.  It's ours.  26 212   Q   Mr. Robinson, I'm going to suggest to you that you're  27 a very important person in the land claims process?  2 8          A   I don't know how important it is.  29 213   Q   I think -- I submit and suggest to you you're one of  30 the most important actors in the land claims process?  31 A   I'm not acting.  32 214   Q   What I meant is you're the person who's working -- one  33 of the most important people working in the land  34 claims process?  35 A   If that's the other people's opinion, I'm really happy  36 if they think that.  37 215   Q   And I'm suggesting to you that you're a very important  38 person in the whole development of the Gitksan nation  39 over the last 20 years?  40 A   If other people think so, sir, including you, I thank  41 you for it.  42 216   Q   And I suggest to you that in 1940 you wanted to move  43 on and to move away from the old traditions?  44 A   If I wanted to move away from the old traditions why  45 am I sitting here?  46 217   Q   You were 18 and with other young people you wanted to  47 join -- you wanted to join the industries, the logging 9884  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  A  4  218  Q  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  219  Q  13  14  15  16  A  17  18  19  220  Q  20  21  A  22  221  Q  23  24  A  25  222  Q  26  A  27  28  223  Q  29  30  31  A  32  224  Q  33  34  35  A  36  225  Q  37  38  39  A  40  41  226  Q  42  A  43  227  Q  44  45  46  A  47  228  Q  and fishing industries and get income in the area  around Hazelton and the Skeena Valley?  Well, it's not throwing away your heritage.  Now, you -- sorry?  I'm sorry, I have to put that in, because if I don't  do the things I am doing I wouldn't survive today  because all the things that we are trying to do is  blocked by the government.  We want to go trapping,  the government say well you got to have permits, and  these are the things that we -- we're proud people, so  we have to go and earn a living.  That's right.  And you've always been -- you've been  very active in the politics of the Gitksan people.  You were active in the Gitksan-Carrier,  Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en Tribal Council?  If that's the way you put it, political, I don't know,  I'm just -- I'm just a working partner with all the  chiefs.  And in the 1960's the Gitksan-Carrier District Council  was set up, wasn't it?  I can't remember what exact date or year is, sir.  And in the 1960's all the bands in the Babine Agency  joined together in the district council, didn't they?  1960?  In the 1960's?  I don't remember.  You know, if I remember I would  agree with you, but I don't -- I can't say yes or no.  And in 1971 you were at a meeting where the  constitution of Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council was  discussed?  Yes, I was.  And at that time the people in Moricetown wanted to  associate with the Carrier people in Prince George,  didn't they?  I don't remember that.  But they decided that all the people in Hagwilget and  Moricetown, the Gitksan people would join in the  Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council, correct?  You see, I don't know -- I don't understand, you know,  like Carrier, you know, reaches out in a big area.  That's right.  You see.  And all those tribes and people in the Gitksan-Carrier  Tribal Council were the Indian bands in the Babine  Agency, weren't they?  Before they changed the agency?  Yes? 35  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  A   Claim?  Q   Yes?  A   Yes, I agree.  Q   That's right.  And in 1973 the chiefs, including you,  heard about the Nisga'a Land Claims case, didn't you?  A   I've heard about it.  Q   And you knew that the Nisga'a people were claiming  Gitksan land, weren't you?  A   I heard about that, yes.  Q   And you signed the resolution in 1975 making land  claims a first priority of the tribal council, didn't  you?  A   I believe I did, and I don't remember.  Q   And the Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en Tribal Council, and you  were a director, carried on with land claims as the  main and principal objective of the tribal council,  didn't they?  A   Yes.  That I believe that deeply in my heart.  It's  the land claims, that's what we really believe in,  because this is our land and we haven't -- distinguish  it, we haven't sold it, haven't signed it over to  anybody.  Q   And in 1977 the tribal council made a presentation to  the Federal Government with their land claim, didn't  they?  A   I believe that is the year, yes.  Q   Yes.  And you were there, weren't you?  A   Yes.  Q   And in 1984 you started the Indian land claims case  that we're in today, didn't you?  A   Yes.  Q   And you were one of the chiefs that was in that land  claims case to start with?  A   That's why I'm here today, sir.  Q   You were the principal -- one of the principal  researchers conducting research for the land claims?  A   I don't know what you mean research, because I was one  of the people that advised the workers, one of the  chiefs.  Q   And everyone in the Gitksan nation, Gitksan people  were aware that the land claims process was underway,  wasn't that true?  A   Repeat that question again.  GRANT:  How can -- I object to that question.  MACKENZIE:  Do you know —  COURT:  Just a minute, Mr. Mackenzie.  GRANT:  That last question about -- this witness, I have no  1  2  229  3  4  230  5  6  7  231  8  9  10  232  11  12  13  14  233  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  234  24  25  26  27  235  28  29  236  30  31  32  237  33  34  35  238  36  37  38  39  40  239  41  42  43  44  MR.  45  MR.  46  THE  47  MR. 9886  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 objection to what this witness perceived, but this  2 witness -- everybody in the area --  3 THE COURT:  I don't think there's a last question anymore, Mr.  4 Grant.  We're going to start over again anyway.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  6 240   Q   And the people that you spoke to were aware, to your  7 knowledge, that you were preparing for the land claims  8 case, isn't that true?  9 A   I wasn't the only one that prepared for the land  10 claims case, it's all the chiefs in the area.  11 241   Q   That's right.  All the people you interviewed knew  12 that you were preparing for the land -- or to present  13 a land claims case to the government?  14 A  All the people that I interviewed I just went along  15 for -- for the other people that doing the work to  16 interview and I sit in.  17 242   Q   And all the differing opinions and the gaps have been  18 pulled together to make a case to present to the  19 Supreme Court, correct?  20 A  All the opinions, different opinions, and then we  21 advised the workers.  It says okay, do more research  22 on and see if this is correct, this is the advice the  23 chiefs give these people that are working for them.  24 243   Q   So I suggest to you that over the years you were  25 principally involved in the creation of this case for  2 6 the Supreme Court?  27 A   I wouldn't say that.  You know, I was one of the  28 persons, yes, one of the chiefs.  I wouldn't say that  29 I spearheaded it, but we all get together and then we  30 talked about it, and this is the conclusion that we  31 arrived to, sir.  32 244   Q   And that's what it is, a recreation, a creation that  33 you prepared for this purpose?  34 A   It's not a creation, it's there, and then we know what  35 our land is.  We didn't create -- I'm not -- I'm not a  36 magician to create anything or do anything like that.  37 245   Q   Yeah.  38 A   But we are talking about land and all get together,  39 and then we were denied by the B.C. government, they  40 wouldn't recognize us as people of this country.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  I have no further questions, my lord.  42 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Miss Koenigsberg.  Mr. Robinson, when  43 did you take the name Spookw?  44 A   Oh, I'm sorry, your honour, I can't remember.  45 THE COURT:  In which decade, the 50's?  46 A   In the 50's I think.  47 THE COURT:  In the 50's? S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A   Yeah.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  And how old are you, please, sir?  A  Well, I'm pushing 67, I believe, if my arithmetic is  right.  THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  Miss Koenigsberg.  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KOENIGSBERG:  246 Q   I'm going to ask you a few questions, Mr. Robinson,  about some feast books.  Did you provide some feast  books to your counsel yesterday or today?  A   Yes.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  And I'm just going to ask you a few questions  because I can't tell whose feast book is whose here,  and I might want to ask you a couple of questions  about them.  I'm just going to show you the copies  that I was given.  The first --  MR. GRANT:  Maybe before my friend starts, that I stapled these  together as best I could, I appreciate they were one.  I may -- that was my work, and then maybe that there's  some miscorrection(sic) on the grouping of the pages,  but —  THE COURT:  What's a miscorrection, Mr. Grant?  MR. GRANT:  Eh?  THE COURT:  What's a miscorrection?  MR. GRANT:  It's a malaprop, my lord.  THE COURT:  Something you created.  MS. KOENIGSBERG.  Well, we'll see if we can straighten this out  fairly expeditiously.  MR. GRANT:  Thank you, my lord.  MS. KOENIGSBERG.  247 Q   The first group of documents stapled together has at  the top of the page February something, and it looks  like a '63?  A   '63.  248 Q   And your name is the first one on the list?  A   Yes.  249 Q   And it's got 430 something?  A   That's correct.  250 Q   Can you read that?  A   That says 432 or 38 — yeah, 38.  251 Q   So okay.  And the 9 above it is  who was adding up the list?  A   I don't know, I just look at the -- we've got -- we  hired a person to keep track of all the expenses, you  know, whoever comes in and put in money, and this is  what I put in.  252 Q   For what feast is this a list?  87.  a carry for the person S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  Now, that's another -- let me see now.  Your counsel provided me with a list of persons for  whom these may be feasts, parts of feast books.  Um-hum.  If 1963 is the date of the feast it wouldn't have been  Tommy Muldoe?  It might be.  If I can find -- there's another part  here some place that would signify if it's Tommy  Muldoe's.  Well, I can tell you that there is another group in  here that has Tommy up at the top.  My guess was that  that might be Tommy Muldoe's feast book?  Yes, 1954, isn't it?  It doesn't have a date on it, I'm afraid, but next to  your name it has a total for contributions at this  feast of $1,619.39 by your name.  Would that be your  recollection of your contribution at Tommy Muldoe's  funeral feast?  Let's see, I don't know, I don't remember.  There's a  lot of feasts that I put up, and I can't remember it.  You see, I just give these books and I just picked  them up and I turn them over, so the council --  Well, I'm going to put my copy in front of you.  Um-hum.  And I'm just going to ask you a couple of questions  about it, and we'll try not to spend too much time  trying to figure out which one is which.  Now I remember this one here.  Now just a second.  It's 1963, your honour.  :  My lord, these are the only copies of these I have.  I will get them released and photocopied later, but  I'll just review the witness' copy with him.  This is William Harold Robinson, my brother.  USBERG:  Just a moment now, you're looking at one --  :  February 1963.  HSBERG:  Where your name is first and the amount written by  your name is 438.87?  Um-hum.  Is that correct?  And you say that was for whom?  My brother, Billy, William Harold is his name.  All right.  In the list that Mr. Grant provided me  this morning there is a smoke feast and feast for Bill  Robinson as number 3, and then number 5 is Robert  Robinson feast, but it's 1985.  Those are two  different persons, correct?  1  A  2  253  Q  3  4  A  5  254  Q  6  7  A  8  9  10  255  Q  11  12  13  A  14  256  Q  15  16  17  18  19  A  20  21  22  23  257  Q  24  A  25  258  Q  26  27  28  A  29  259  Q  30  A  31  MR.  GRANT  32  33  34  A  35  MS.  KOENI  36  MR.  GRANT  37  MS.  KOENI  38  260  Q  39  40  A  41  261  Q  42  A  43  262  Q  44  45  46  47 39  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  A  2  263  Q  3  A  4  264  Q  5  6  A  7  265  Q  8  9  10  A  11  12  266  Q  13  14  A  15  267  Q  16  17  18  19  20  21  A  22  268  Q  23  A  24  25  26  269  Q  27  28  29  A  30  31  32  270  Q  33  A  34  271  Q  35  36  A  37  38  272  Q  39  A  40  273  Q  41  A  42  274  Q  43  A  44  THE  COURT  45  A  46  MS.  KOENI  47  275  Q  Yes.  They're both brothers of mine.  Both brothers?  Both brothers of mine, yeah.  All right.  So you think the 1963 one is Bill  Robinson?  Is Bill.  And is this document that we've being looking at where  your name is first on the list, the 438.87 by it, is  that from the smoke feast?  I think that the total, both of them together on that,  I believe that's what it is.  When you say both, there would be a smoke feast and  then a funeral feast?  Yes.  And you believe that the first page of this four  page -- four pages clipped together here, the first  page with February '63 on the top, and the total at  the bottom being 1,025.60 and then a 25 under it is a  totalling of the contributions at both feasts, is that  correct?  Yes.  I believe so.  All right.  Did you take a name at that feast?  No.  I have -- I already have a name, and that's why  I'm the head man in that feast, otherwise I wouldn't  be -- not that much money.  And you say that at this feast in 1963 you were  already a head man.  Which name would we know you by  in '63?  Well, I've got two names.  At that feast I was -- I  used Mediigemgyet.  I think you can see it on the  bottom part of the --  On the bottom part?  I think so, it's in there some place.  I haven't had much time to look at this, but in my  quick perusal I didn't see a name?  No.  It's not on this one, but that's the name I used  for that feast.  You were Mediigemgyet -- you want to say that for me?  Say?  Mediigemgyet?  Yes.  You held that name in 1963?  Yes.  :  You said you were already Spookw?  Yeah.  I believe I was too at that time.  HSBERG:  Then we have a group of documents, five in number, 9890  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  headed "Tommy" at the top.  Can you find that group?  Do you see that?  A   Yes, "Tommy".  Q   And your name is first, Steve Robinson?  A   Um-hum.  Q   And as we just mentioned, there's a total over at the  side, the last column on that first page that shows  $1,619.39?  A   Um-hum, yes.  Q   And then there are other persons of course listed  having made contributions?  A   Yes.  Q   Is this a document from the feast book for Tommy  Muldoe's funeral feast?  A   I believe so.  I don't remember putting up the feast  for any other Tommys except him.  Q   And can you help us; the Chief Justice asked you just  a few moments ago if you remembered when that was.  Do  you have any idea of the year?  A   I don't remember.  Sometimes I guess people just don't  put the years on.  KOENIGSBERG:  Your counsel's showing you a page.  GRANT:  The second to last page has at the bottom, I just  was pointing it out, it has a date there of April  29th.  It might reflect something about that feast.  KOENIGSBERG:  Q   Was this the feast where you took the name Spookw?  A   No.  I don't think so.  I took it before that, I think  Tommy Muldoe died way before that.  I think this is --  this is --  COURT:  Well, this is headed "Feathers for Steve Robinson".  KOENIGSBERG.  I'm sorry.  Is your lordship looking at —  COURT:  Page 3 — no, page 4, I believe.  KOENIGSBERG.  Q   Page 4, "Feathers for Steve Robinson".  Does that have  significance in terms of taking a name?  A  Well, if you go out to invite other chiefs and then  you go and you don't send them an invitation card you  have to walk to their houses and knock and tell these  people what kind of feast that you're going to put up  and invite them.  Q   Yes?  A   To that particular feast.  Q   Yes?  A  And there's a feast of raising the headstone, there's  a burial feast, and raising the headstone and these  things that these proceedings that you have to go  1  2  3  4  276  5  6  277  7  8  9  10  278  11  12  13  279  14  15  16  17  280  18  19  20  21  22  MS.  23  MR.  24  25  26  MS.  27  281  28  29  30  31  THE  32  MS.  33  THE  34  MS.  35  282  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  283  43  44  284  45  46  47 9891  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  285  286  287  288  289  MS.  MR.  MS.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MS.  290  291  A  A  through.  You've got to respect the people that you  are going to invite, and you have to go yourself and  invite them personally.  All right.  And so you invited personally the persons  listed under these for Steve Robinson?  Yes.  And they say, well, thank you, and in return  they give you amount of dollars that say they will be  there, but in return I have to pay that back, because  with interest, through the respect for their attending  the feast, so I have to add to it.  All right.  Can we take it that because you invited  those persons in that fashion that this was the  funeral feast for Tommy Muldoe?  It could be a funeral feast for Tommy Muldoe, it could  be a funeral feast or headstone raising for Johnson  Alexander, I don't know which.  It's either one of  them, because I put up a lot of feasts during my chief  days, and I don't remember which is which.  Well, Johnson Alexander died in 1971, did he?  I believe that's it.  And —  And Tommy Muldoe died way before that.  Do you remember how much you contributed at Tommy  Muldoe's feast when you took the name Spookw?  This should be here, $384.64.  KOENIGSBERG:  Where is that?  GRANT:  It's on one of the feast -- the one with his name at  the top and that amount beside it.  KOENIGSBERG.  So we're looking now at —  COURT:  But you told me that that was for your brother  Billy?  No.  That's a different one now, your honour.  No.  The one in 1963 was 438.87.  Yes.  Tommy Muldoe just has the name Steve Robinson,  384.64 under that Mary Johnson, 1912; under that  Johnson Alexander.  It's undated on the first page.  Oh, yes.  KOENIGSBERG.  Q   So to your knowledge or to your recollection Johnson  Alexander died after Tommy Muldoe?  Yes.  All right.  And you believe that the document which is  four pages headed "Steven Robinson" 384.64 is from the  feast book of Tommy Muldoe's funeral feast?  Yes.  This was the one, because Esther Muldoe is the  wife of Tommy Muldoe, and that's the reason why I  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT:  A  Q  A 9892  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 identify that in the bottom.  2 292   Q   All right.  You're looking under "Haircut", where it  3 says Esther Muldoe and then 445.25, as the design --  4 A   Yes.  5 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  And is there anything under this document now  6 that you could look at which would assist you in  7 confirming of your opinion that this is the book from  8 Tommy Muldoe's funeral feast?  I notice on the last  9 page, for instance, it says "Bertha Star stayed at  10 house during the day".  Does that mean anything to  11 you?  12 MR. GRANT:  The witness has just asked me if I had put them  13 together right, my lord, anticipating my  14 miscorrection.  15 THE COURT:  Yeah.  16 MR. GRANT:  And he referred to Adam Snow.  He said I believe  17 some of these people are dead long before Tommy Muldoe  18 and he refers to the second page to Adam Snow.  19 A   I don't know, I can't remember because it's a long  2 0 time ago.  21 MS. KOENIGSBERG.  I wonder if did you provide some original  22 documents, often there are lined paper of notebooks  23 with these.  24 MR. GRANT:  I can advise the court of the situation, my lord,  25 and assist.  Mr. Robinson provided me with feast books  26 which included in some of them more than one feast.  27 There was also material that I deem was entirely  28 irrelevant and personal and of a personal nature which  29 as in previous occasions I edit it.  Now, I  30 endeavoured to put them together as I understood they  31 matched.  I have no difficulty if my friend wishes and  32 if my lord grants leave to just review those original  33 books with Mr. Robinson and ensure they have a  34 correction.  At the time he delivered these feast  35 books to me we did not have an opportunity to go over  36 them, I only had an opportunity to photocopy them and  37 deliver them to my friend, so if my friend wishes to  38 do that, that's --  39 THE COURT:  Can you do that over lunch?  40 MR. GRANT:  I would be happy to do that over lunch with leave of  41 the court.  42 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I would be happy if my friend would straighten  43 it out.  44 THE COURT:  All right.  45 MS. KOENIGSBERG.  46 293   Q   Let me just ask you before we break what your  47 recollection is, if you have one, of what your 9893  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 contribution at the feast was when you took the name  2 Spookw?  3 A  Well, I tell you, I figure if I contribute these  4 amount of money to the feast hall, that I am doing  5 what my grandfathers would be doing with their  6 deceased relatives, to take care of them through the  7 love of the family unity, and this is the reason why  8 we do this, and to exercise our rights.  I mean our  9 laws are kept alive, and this is what these documents  10 means, it's not -- it doesn't mean that you going to  11 be higher or better than anybody else, it's just --  12 it's your chore to do what you can do to your clan and  13 your family, to keep the tradition up so that your  14 laws and working of your land is still workable today.  15 294   Q   Now —  16 A  And this is the -- sorry, but this is -- this is what  17 is happening today.  We try to keep all this up so  18 that people would know that we have kept our heritage  19 alive and our tradition alive and the totem poles that  20 we have put up, and I believe that the white people  21 really enjoy them and that's the foundation of the  22 land.  If you -- if the government pick up the totem  23 pole, we don't force it on them, and they take it and  24 put it on the legislature building, that means they  25 recognize that we are the owner of this land.  26 295   Q   My question to you was do you recall when you took the  27 name Spookw what your monetary contribution at the  28 feast was for the taking of that name?  29 A  Well, I'm responsible because I am the head chief.  30 296   Q   I understand that.  31 A  And everyone had to, you know, expect something of me  32 and then in return I have to do the best I can, and  33 this is my contribution, is to show my people that I  34 am working with them.  This is the main contribution  35 that you can do to your fellow men and women, is show  36 that you can love them and try to work together with  37 them, and this is the main contribution that I have  38 with my people, and even if I have to do it with other  39 races I will try and work with them also because  40 that's another contribution towards something else.  41 You see, that's -- let's put it here, excuse me, your  42 honour, I'm going to -- you see, what you're doing  43 today, this is your contribution towards the federal  44 government, and then my contribution to my people as a  45 head —  46 THE COURT:  I think we're getting beyond the question, Mr.  47 Robinson. 9894  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 MS. KOENIGSBERG.  2 297   Q   Yes.  Mr. Robinson, I appreciate there are a number of  3 ways in which you may have made a contribution to your  4 people and as a chief, but my question is as it's  5 shown on these books for various feasts and as we  6 heard the custom is, moneys are paid both in goods  7 valued and in goods and in dollars at funeral feasts  8 when someone takes a name.  Now, you've told us that  9 you took the name Spookw?  10 A  Mm-hmm.  11 298   Q   And the name Mediigemgyet at the funeral feast of  12 Tommy Muldoe, is that correct?  13 A   Um-hum.  14 299   Q   Do you recall how much money in both goods and cash  15 you contributed when you took both of those names?  16 A   The money's on that, the sheet.  17 300   Q   All right.  You believe that if in fact we are looking  18 at the funeral feast book for Tommy Muldoe's feast, it  19 is $384.64?  2 0          A   Um-hum.  21 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Perhaps for the purpose of the record, my  22 lord, and until we know differently, the document  23 which shows Steven Robinson at the head of it at the  24 top of the page with 384.64 and four sheets put  25 together could be marked as the next exhibit.  26 MR. GRANT:  Well, my lord, I would ask because the witness  27 indicated he was concerned that one of the pages may  28 not belong, if my friend isn't prejudiced we will wait  29 until after the lunch and I will be sure we have the  30 right —  31 THE COURT:  It can be done after lunch.  32 MS. KOENIGSBERG.  I just wanted to be sure we had the right one.  33 THE COURT:  All right.  Do you want to carry on with something  34 else?  35 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  I think I probably could cover a  36 considerable portion.  37 THE COURT:  All right, go ahead.  38 MS. KOENIGSBERG.  39 301   Q   I would like to ask you now about your residence and  40 employment history as best you can tell us.  You told  41 us that you're coming into your 67th year?  42 A   Um-hum.  43 302   Q   That's correct?  Can you tell us where you have lived,  44 and if it's five hundred places, let's try to do it in  45 blocks so you don't have to tell us every single one.  46 Where were you born?  47 A   I was born in Gitanmaax. 9895  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  303  Q  2  A  3  304  Q  4  A  5  305  Q  6  A  7  8  306  Q  9  10  A  11  307  Q  12  A  13  308  Q  14  A  15  16  17  309  Q  18  A  19  310  Q  20  21  A  22  311  Q  23  A  24  312  Q  25  A  26  313  Q  27  A  28  29  30  31  32  314  Q  33  A  34  35  315  Q  36  A  37  316  Q  38  39  40  A  41  42  317  Q  43  A  44  45  46  318  Q  47  A  And have you lived any place other than Gitanmaax?  Oh, yes.  I went to school in Edmonton.  And when was that?  That was in 1932, I believe.  And —  That's where I learned how to look after animals, not  educate them.  And when you left school from Edmonton, would that --  were you there for more than one year?  Three years.  Three years, so 1935?  1935.  Did you come back to Gitanmaax?  Yes.  And I went down -- right from Alberta I went  down fishing with my brother-in-law at the Port  Essington.  And would you have been about 13, 14?  Yeah.  About around there.  And you went to Port Essington and worked with your  brother?  Brother-in-law.  Your brother-in-law?  Yeah.  For the canneries?  I was fishing deck-hand on the fishing boat.  And how long did you do that?  Well, it's seasonal work, and we worked from spring --  you start fishing early at that time because there's  no restriction of any kind.  You start fishing, you  fish five days a week, and we finished until around  October.  Yes?  You fishing start maybe around latter part of March,  or early April, whenever, you start.  Yes?  And fish all the way through.  And during that period of time, we're talking about in  the mid to late 30's, would you come back to Gitanmaax  and --  Come back after the season's over and then come back  and live in Gitanmaax.  All right.  And then if I can squeeze a little schooling in at the  Indian day school I would, but most of the time I  would be hunting squirrels.  And how long did you maintain that schedule?  Well, it was, you know, I think two or three years. 9896  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  2  319  Q  3  A  4  320  Q  5  A  6  7  8  9  321  Q  10  A  11  322  Q  12  A  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  323  Q  23  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  324  Q  30  A  31  325  Q  32  A  33  326  Q  34  A  35  36  327  Q  37  A  38  39  328  Q  40  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  47  I'm not too sure.  Until you were about 16, 17?  Yeah.  About 16, I guess.  And then what did you do?  And then I went out and worked, because there's -- at  that time there's depression.  I used to go out and  cut wood, you know, to help my dad out, because we  have such a big family, and I stayed at home.  Yes?  And then --  You said you went out and worked.  Where did you work?  I worked around helping my dad in the early age, and  then I went down to Rupert and worked around.  When  the war broke out I worked in the shipyard, and  there's some sawmills around that area and I stayed in  Rupert and I came back to Hazelton in 1942, I believe,  and then, you know, I worked with Hanson Lumber and  Timber Company and I lived in Hazelton.  I worked for  Bell Pole later on, I worked for telephone company,  I've worked -- and I was helping -- I was working at  the airport in Smithers during the war.  And so that covers about, what, are we up into the --  through the airport time, are we up through the mid to  late 40's?  Yeah.  It's around -- then I -- that's early 40's.  You see, from the '39 on, and then I went back to  Rupert again and I stayed there, and then in 1941 I  came back -- '42 I came back.  Yeah?  And I got married in 1944, figure I was grown up then.  All right.  And then from 1944 after you were married?  I went out to pole camp in the bush to work.  You worked in the logging industry?  Yes.  And we were driving, I was a foreman on Hanson  Lumber and Timber.  You were the foreman?  Yes.  For quite a few years.  I just can't pin down,  I've been jumping here and there, all over.  I understand that.  You were working then in the  logging industry from 1944 for approximately how many  years?  I can't remember because it's quite a few years I've  been working there, and I work for Public Works in  Hazelton, you know, for about two months, I guess, I  believe so.  I forget what year it is when they're  building the garage at the -- you know, the government  is building the garage for New Hazleton when they 9897  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  2  3  4  5  329  Q  6  A  7  8  330  Q  9  A  10  11  331  Q  12  13  A  14  332  Q  15  A  16  17  18  19  333  Q  20  21  A  22  334  Q  23  A  24  25  26  27  28  335  Q  29  30  A  31  336  Q  32  A  33  337  Q  34  35  A  36  338  Q  37  A  38  339  Q  39  A  40  41  42  43  44  THE  COURT  45  A  46  47  moved from Hazelton, and I was the man with the little  bit of knowledge of mixing concrete, and that's why  they hired me, and then after that I went back in the  bush again.  It's -- you know, it's --  Did that take you through the 40's?  Well, it's in the 40's, and then I go fishing in the  summer-time.  And you've been a commercial fisherman?  I've been a commercial fisherman and I'm still a  commercial fisherman.  For approximately how many years have you been a  commercial fisherman?  Well, I started in 1935 as a deck-hand.  Right?  And in 1937 I believe I rented a boat from the A.B.C.  Company when we moved to North Pacific Cannery, and I  rented a boat until 1948, and I bought a boat.  The  name of the boat is NP258.  258?  And how long did you operate your own boat, or  are you still operating one?  I'm still operating my own boat.  And have you --  Because I retired that 258 in 1954 when I have the  GITKSAN PRINCESS, a fibreglass built — started to  build in 1974.  That's when they start building it  at -- I couldn't remember the -- Alvin Boat Shop in  Maple Ridge.  All right.  So, I'm sorry, I thought I understood you  to say that your first boat you retired in 1954?  No, '74.  In 1974 when you began with your newest boat?  Yeah.  And have you been fishing, commercially fishing with  your newest boat, it's GITKSAN PRINCESS?  GITKSAN PRINCESS.  From 1974 until?  Still exists today.  And where have you commercially fished?  Well, I went west coast of Vancouver Island one year,  and I had to -- to pull the boat over.  I don't want  to go around the gulf, so we pulled it out of the --  no, what you call that little place there, just above  Nanaimo?  :  Nanoose Bay?  In the area of Parksville, and we pulled it over with  a truck over to Port Alberni on the other side, and  then we launched it again, and then the same way on 989?  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 the way back.  2 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  3 340   Q   Yeah.  And have you fished, commercially fished in the  4 Fraser River?  5 A   No, no.  I don't -- you know, I haven't had -- I don't  6 think I would care too much, because I went out with  7 the commercial fisherman while my boat is built in  8 Maple Ridge, and I don't know, I don't want to take  9 chances, because once you goof up in the fishing you  10 lose a lot of things.  You've got to learn, you got to  11 learn.  12 341   Q   Where else?  13 A   I fished up and down the coast as far as -- I went to  14 Bella Coola, Bella Bella, and now looking down the  15 coast.  I didn't go as far as, what you call that,  16 Johnson Straights, I didn't get down that far.  Recent  17 years I more or less hang around locally.  I went to  18 the Queen Charlotte Islands, but the last few years I  19 didn't go because there's not too many fish, and the  20 openings are too far apart.  21 THE COURT:  Do you want to adjourn?  22 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Sure.  23 THE COURT:  All right, two o'clock, please.  24 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  25  2 6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:30)  2 7 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 2:00)  28  29 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Witness, I remind you, you are  30 still under oath.  31 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant.  32 MR. GRANT:  My lord, I had an opportunity to discuss with the  33 witness these feast books, and I have delivered them  34 or spoken to my friend about them.  I've also  35 delivered another one which I will refer to which was  36 not included earlier today, but it just had to be  37 copied.  If you take the first one, the one where  38 Steve Robinson is at the top and there's a reference  39 to a contribution of 1,619.39 on the top of the first  40 page, now, it would be right on the top.  41 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  My lord, the one I have referred to as having  42 "Tommy" on the top, actually that's not "Tommy", it's  43 "Family".  44 THE COURT:  What is it?  45 MR. GRANT:  It's "Family".  It says "Steve Robinson", and it  46 looks like it has "Tommy" on the top.  47 THE COURT:  Oh, yes. 9899  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  MR.  GRANT  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  GRANT  10  11  THE  COURT  12  MR.  GRANT  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  GRANT  32  THE  COURT  33  MR.  GRANT  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  GRANT  36  37  38  39  40  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  GRANT  43  44  45  46  47  Now, what happened, and it's only when I went back  to the originals, is apparently -- photocopying didn't  take all of the top, and the left side it should read  "April 29th, '77", and then it says "Family".  This is  not written, but I've been instructed by the witness  that this would be the Johnson Alexander headstone  feast.  Yes.  The next one is Jimmy Wood's casket on the first  page on the top.  Yes.  And that is the Robert Robinson feast, and if you  turn the first page, there's some writing on the  left-hand upper corner.  It's "October 23rd, '85" on  the original.  And actually, that October 23rd, '85 is  on each page that is numbered after the first page.  It's on page 1, page 2 with Irene Conierf?) on the  top, and number 3, Cathy McKenzie, then it goes family  expense, and on the top of the original, my lord, it  should read, and it does read, "October 26th/85", and  above the word "Family expense" it should read  "Final", and on the right-hand side it just says "In  the pot - $12,850".  That's how the original reads.  And then the subsequent pages are numbered and each of  them have the words "October 26th, '85" on them, on  the top of the original right up to where it says  "Haircut", and including that page.  There are two  pages of calculations referenced to names on the last  page.  I haven't found "Haircut" yet.  Oh, it would be --  Yes.  I have it, that's fine.  Three pages in from the end.  Yes.  I have it.  You have it?  The next one I need say no more  because there was nothing cut off.  It's the one where  Steve Robinson is referred to as 384.64, and he's  already given evidence about the feast that he recalls  that as being.  There's no record in the original of  the date of the feast.  You told me it was the feast book for Tommy Muldoe.  That's right, that's what he's already given  evidence, but there was no additional information on  the original document.  The next one, which has "Steve  Robinson 438.87" on the top, should have "February  11th, '63" on the top of that page, and of course it's  on the subsequent pages.  And he's given evidence, I 9900  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  believe, that that's Bill Robinson's, his brother's.  Yes.  The second to last one -- The third last one is a  two-page excerpt.  It says "Smoke at Kispiox for Mary  Johnson", it's only two pages long, and it starts with  Steve Robinson.  Yes.  I have it.  Now, that is from a different -- it's a different  record of the next one, which says "Smoke feast", and  it should say "Mary Johnson" and it has expenses,  "July 3rd, '69" on the top of it.  That is the next  separate excerpt.  Yes.  And so it should say "Mary Johnson expenses July  3rd, '69".  Yes.  What does it -- it just says "Mary Johnson",  does it?  You see the word "Expenses, July 3rd, '69", yeah,  "Mary Johnson" should be written above that.  Thank you.  Is that July 30th?  July 3rd, I believe.  Yes, all right, thank you.  Now, that is six pages long, and it not only  includes the record of the smoke feast but also the  funeral feast for Mary Johnson.  And the final one is  funeral -- the Hilroy tab on the cover, "Funeral,  September 1st, 1987, Thomas Alfred Wright, deceased  August 28th, 1987", and that is Thomas Wright, the  former Guuhadak, who is a plaintiff in the action, and  that's the feast record for that feast.  And you  didn't have that this morning.  No, all right, thank you.  The only other matter I wish to advise the court of  is that the witness we had intended to examine out of  court this morning we've been unable to locate and  arrange to be here, and so this morning's examination  has not proceeded.  I've advised I was to be out of  court with the next witness this afternoon, and as  soon as Mr. Robinson's over we will commence that, and  I think subject to the problem this morning we will be  able to -- we may have to sit late, but we will  complete the out-of-court witness this afternoon.  All right.  Those are all my comments.  MACKENZIE:  My lord, I'm scheduled to do the out-of-court  witness scheduled for tomorrow, Mrs. Mary Skin, and I  understand she's not going to be available.  I wonder  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT 9901  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 if my friend could advise on the status of that  2 examination.  3 MS. MANDELL:  My lord, I'm also scheduled with respect to Miss  4 Skin.  She's an 80-year-old lady from Francois Lake.  5 We're not certain she's going to be here.  We're  6 not -- we haven't lost hope yet either, so I'll tell  7 my friend as soon as we know.  8 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  Miss Koenigsberg?  9 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  10 342   Q   Mr. Robinson, before we go back I want to ask you a  11 few more questions about the feasts and the feast  12 books, but I would just like to finish off, if I can,  13 your evidence on your employment history.  And we  14 gathered quite a lot of it, and I believe when we  15 broke for lunch we had -- you told us about your  16 extensive commercial fishing activities and that you  17 are still commercially fishing, but I wanted to ask  18 you if you have ever engaged in farming?  19 A   No.  I don't think -- I believe, well, the only time I  20 engaged in handling animals is, as you call that,  21 farming in Edmonton at the school, Essington School,  22 to look after the animals half a day and go to school  23 half a day.  24 343   Q   I could be mistaken, but I thought I recall that on  25 your interrogatories on your employment activities you  26 had mentioned farming, but you haven't actually either  27 owned a farm or worked on a farm for any period of  2 8 time?  29 A  Well, the only place I worked on the farm is when I  30 was a young lad and earned one dollar a day for  31 digging potatoes.  32 344   Q   Might that have been your reference?  33 A   It's not in my reference, it might be.  34 345   Q   I'm sorry?  35 A   But then it's -- either that's when I'm helping my dad  36 do haying.  37 346   Q   Haying?  38 A   Yeah.  39 347   Q   Is that at the same time that --  40 A   You know, it's when I was young, but actually I never  41 owned a farm or any kind of cattle or any -- like  42 anything like that, but I have horses that I worked  43 with in the bush.  44 348   Q   You also listed carpentry.  Was there a period of time  45 in which you engaged in the occupation -- in an  46 occupation which carpentry was your principal  47 occupation? 9902  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  A  2  3  4  5  349  Q  6  7  8  9  A  10  350  Q  11  12  13  A  14  351  Q  15  16  A  17  18  352  Q  19  A  20  353  Q  21  A  22  23  24  354  Q  25  A  26  27  355  Q  28  A  29  30  31  356  Q  32  A  33  357  Q  34  A  35  358  Q  36  A  37  38  39  40  359  Q  41  A  42  360  Q  43  A  44  45  46  47  MS. ]  KOEI  Well, I was just a helper on Bowmac(?) and Smithers  Contracting, and George Adelaide in Smithers here, I  can't remember the particular year, and then I buy  materials for my house and I build it myself.  And so you've told us that you spent many many years  as a commercial fisherman, many many years in the  various aspects of what we would call the logging  industry?  Um-hum.  And you worked in shipyards, and you've told us about  that.  Are there any other occupations that we haven't  covered?  Maybe there's some, but I can't recall.  Now, you've told us about hunting squirrels when you  were a boy?  Oh, yeah.  I used to sneak away from school just to go  hunt squirrels.  Have you hunted, other than as a boy, squirrels?  Well, I can, you know, I snare squirrels.  Um-hum?  And I went out with my dad to set traps, which you  know I made a home-made trap, which I learned from  school, the residence school.  Yes?  And I told my dad one time we were going out, I said  "I'm going to make a little box about that long".  Yes?  And then have a little sliding door up and down, you  know, a little invention, because that's how we hunt I  mean golphers and weasels.  So you went out hunting and trapping with your dad?  Yes.  Is that when you were a boy?  Yeah.  When I was a boy, yeah.  How about since you've been an adult?  Well, I wouldn't say that I really go into hunting,  but I went in there just to keep myself, you know,  in -- I don't know how to word it, but active in  trapping.  All right.  So whenever I got a chance I go out.  Would you say that you occasionally hunt or trap?  Occasionally, because some day maybe I will have an  opportunity to go out and trap if I got -- you know,  if some of my relatives say "Well, Steve, there's an  open place for you to go out and hunt", I'll go.  5SBERG:  Would you go as often as once a year? 9903  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 MR. GRANT:  Which, hunting, trapping or both?  2 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  3 361   Q   Hunting or trapping?  4 A  Well, I'm hunting every year just, you know, game  5 hunting, like moose, deer, but occasionally I slip a  6 little trap in here and there.  7 362   Q   Would you go more often than once a year on a hunting  8 trip?  9 A  Well, right now I would because I'm unoccupied in the  10 wintertime.  11 363   Q   When did you become unoccupied in the wintertime so  12 that you could go hunting?  13 A  Well, since I've -- since I've -- you know, when this  14 new law came out in this commercial fishing, and then  15 there's a threat there.  I don't remember what year it  16 was, if you're not a real -- you know, just a  17 part-time fisherman, you know, the fishery would say  18 "Okay, you're just a part-time fisherman", so I say  19 "Well, I'm going to be a full-time commercial  20 fisherman", which pretty well experienced that, so I  21 said to the wife, I says "I'm going to make enough  22 money this summer and then if make sure I don't run  23 short looking after the family, I'm going to dedicate  24 myself either mending my net in the wintertime,  25 getting ready for the next season".  26 364   Q   Let me —  27 A   That's, you know, for maybe about six years before I  28 was pensioned off.  29 365   Q   So about six years ago you ceased commercially fishing  30 full time?  31 A   No.  I'm still commercial fishing full time.  32 366   Q   What is the last six years?  33 A   That I can get the odd jobs around in the wintertime.  34 367   Q   So —  35 A   You see, I fished in the summertime.  If there's an  36 opening of odd jobs, like carpenter's helper, I'll  37 take that, but for the last few years I don't do that  3 8 anymore.  39 368   Q   We were trying to pin down approximately when you've  40 been able to go hunting at least once a year, and you  41 said you couldn't put a date on it, but it's since  42 you've had more time in the wintertime.  Has that been  43 in the last two years or last five years?  44 A  Well, it doesn't make any difference how many years,  45 because if I have the opportunity to go out trapping I  46 would --  47 369   Q   Yes? 9904  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  A  2  3  4  5  6  7  370  Q  8  A  9  10  371  Q  11  12  13  14  A  15  372  Q  16  A  17  18  373  Q  19  20  A  21  22  23  374  Q  24  A  25  26  27  375  Q  28  A  29  376  Q  30  A  31  32  33  377  Q  34  35  36  37  A  38  378  Q  39  A  40  379  Q  41  42  43  44  A  45  46  380  Q  47  In the wintertime instead of going out in the bush and  work, but I haven't got no trapline, you see, all over  around you now it's all clear cut, and there's  forestry burning and then there is mice and everything  all burned up, and there's no tree and there's hardly  any marten or anything, they move out.  So —  And on top of that, I haven't got all -- what do you  call that -- registered trapline.  So let me try and understand your evidence, if I can,  on the frequency of your hunting and trapping.  You  hunt or trap occasionally as often as you can in the  wintertime?  I wish I would do it full time, if I can.  But as of --  But, you know, the way the situation is I can't do it.  It's not my fault.  When you have hunted, particularly big game, where  have you hunted?  I went all over, you know, just to keep out of the way  of these big-game hunters, they're trigger happy, so  they don't shoot me instead.  And what would "all over" encompass?  Well, sometimes I go at around the Babine area, and up  Kisgegas, up at Medzi(?) and all through that area.  I  went through Houston hunting big game.  And what about trapping, where have you been trapping?  Oh, just up around on the reserve, around Gitanmaax.  And was that when you were with your father?  No.  Just, you know, when I have nothing to do, but  when I'm with my father we go into Nika Te'en's  territory, just like I say to you.  So when you were a boy trapping with your father it  was on Nika Te'en's territory, and since you've been  able to trap only infrequently since you've been an  adult it's been in and around the reserve?  Yes.  Which reserve are we speaking of?  Gitanmaax.  Now, let's come back to the feast books and let me try  and understand -- I think your counsel is going to put  them in front of you.  If you prefer you can sit down,  Mr. Robinson?  No.  I think I'll stand for awhile, stretch my old  bones.  I'm looking at the feast book that's headed "Family,  Johnson Alexander". 9905  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  A  2  381  Q  3  4  A  5  382  Q  6  7  A  8  MS.  KOENI  9  MR.  GRANT  10  MS.  KOENI  11  383  Q  12  A  13  14  384  Q  15  A  16  385  Q  17  18  19  20  21  A  22  386  Q  23  24  A  25  26  387  Q  27  28  A  29  388  Q  30  31  A  32  389  Q  33  34  A  35  390  Q  36  A  37  391  Q  38  39  A  40  392  Q  41  A  42  393  Q  43  44  A  45  MR.  GRANT  46  47  A  Um-hum.  April 29th, 1977.  That was the date of the headstone  feast?  Yes.  And so the headstone feast for Johnson Alexander was  then held approximately six years after his death?  Yes.  USBERG:  And did anyone take a name at this feast?  :  The headstone feast?  HSBERG:  Yes?  I don't believe there's any -- I can't recall.  If  there is it should be on here.  Well —  They usually mark them.  Down at the bottom of the page that we were looking at  before, it's the fourth page in, called "Feathers for  Steve Robinson".  You see that?  It's the only name I  could find on it.  It says, I believe that's  Mediigemgyet?  Yes.  But you didn't take the name Mediigemgyet at this  feast?  No.  It shouldn't be on there, it's the bookkeeper's  error, I believe.  When you say "Bookkeeper", you mean the person who --  the Gitksan person?  That takes these down.  The person who takes the notes or keeps the record of  who made what contributions at the feast?  Yes.  And can you see there's a name just on the left-hand  side from Mediigemgyet?  That's Liligit.  Liligit?  That's feast.  And then let's look at -- I'm sorry, the one that says  "Robert Robinson" at the top, Jimmy Wood's casket?  Mm-hmm.  Now, this is your brother, Robert?  Yes.  And did we have a date for this one, October 23rd,  1985?  I guess.  :  That was a smoke feast, and I think the record shows  that the funeral feast was October the 26th?  October 26th. 9906  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  2 394   Q   All right.  And on the front page where it has "Jimmy  3 Wood's casket", is there a significance to that  4 grouping of persons with those names at the side?  I  5 mean where it says "Casket and clothing engraved"?  6 A   Yes.  7 395   Q   What is that?  8 A   You see, that's the relative of my father, and it's  9 generally the three -- the real thing you're supposed  10 to do if you -- your father's relative was to buy your  11 casket, if the casket is a little bit expensive you  12 have to get maybe one or two people to pay for the  13 casket, and this is what Jimmy and Norris, the brother  14 and sister here, and Francis Samson's secretary, she's  15 one that writes all these, the expenses down.  16 396   Q   All right.  And the persons' names appear here, are  17 they members of your father's house?  18 A   Not all of them.  It's -- they're members of Nika  19 Te'en's house, and not all of them are members, you  20 see.  There's Delbert Turner there, that's  21 Luutkudziiwas' house, you see, but he's Lax Seel.  22 He's my brother-in-law, they -- usually brother-in-law  23 used to go out and we call them Antdim hanak,  24 contribute what he can to assist the grieved family,  25 because he's a member of the family.  26 397   Q   And I see Agnes Travers' name there?  27 A   Yes.  28 398   Q   Is she a relative of your father's?  29 A   Yes.  The House of Nika Te'en.  30 399   Q   In the House of Nika Te'en?  31 A   Yes.  32 400   Q   And is she related by blood to your father?  33 A   Yes.  34 401   Q   What relationship?  35 A   It's, you know, distant.  Maybe we call it in our own  36 ways granddaughter, in our own system.  37 402   Q   I see.  So she could be, for instance, a grand-niece,  38 or —  39 A   Yeah, grand-niece or whatever.  40 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  She was the person who was one of the  41 informants of Neil Sterritt's.  Do you remember when  42 Mr. Mackenzie was asking the questions?  43 MR. GRANT:  Which questions?  44 A   Yes, yes.  45 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  46 403   Q   I believe it was -- I'm sorry, let me just identify  47 this for the record, Mr. Robinson.  I believe it was 9907  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 on a topographic survey sheet, Exhibit 817 for  2 identification, and she had identified the Silver  3 Standard Mountain as being in a territory of  4 Woosimlaxha?  5 A   Um-hum.  6 4 04   Q   And it was P. Samson and Agnes Travers and the  7 informants.  And that person, Agnes Travers, would be  8 the same person here?  9 A   Yes.  10 405   Q   And does -- is she then related to Gordon Travers?  11 A   That's her husband.  12 406   Q   Okay.  I notice his name is involved in these feasts?  13 A   Yes.  He was adopted into Kliiyemlaxhaa's house.  14 407   Q   And is Agnes Travers a knowledgeable person about the  15 territories?  16 A   I wouldn't know.  17 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  All right.  Now, Mary Johnson was your  18 grandmother?  19 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Miss Koenigsberg, are you leaving this  20 one?  21 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  22 THE COURT:  Do I take it Robert Robinson is your father?  23 A   No.  That's my brother, with the --  24 THE COURT:  Oh, all right, he's a brother?  25 A   Yes.  26 THE COURT:  But these people that are on this list were -- were  27 your father's relatives?  28 A   Yeah, my father's relatives, and they're all in from  29 Nika Te'en's house except Delbert Turner.  30 THE COURT:  Yes.  What were they called, Wilksiwitxw?  31 A  Wilksiwitxw, you're correct, your Honour.  32 THE COURT:  Thank you.  33 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Maybe, my Lord, I'm reminded by your question,  34 we can mark the Robert Robinson one with Jimmy Woods  35 on the first page as the next exhibit.  36 THE COURT:  You don't want to mark the other one that you dealt  37 with earlier, the Johnson Alexander?  38 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes, if we could.  39 THE COURT:  All right.  What number will that be?  40 THE REGISTRAR:  Next number is 819.  41 THE COURT:  819, thank you.  42 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  And so the Johnson Alexander one will be  43 Exhibit 819.  4 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  45 THE REGISTRAR:  And Robert Robinson will be the next one?  4 6 THE COURT:  Yes, 82 0.  47 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  To be sure we don't get them mixed up, "Robert 990?  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Robinson with Jimmy Wood's casket" is the first line  2 of the first page on that one.  3 THE COURT:  Of 82 0.  4  5 EXHIBIT 819 - Feast book relating to Johnson  6 Alexander  7  8 EXHIBIT 820 - Feast book relating to Robert  9 Robinson with Jimmy Wood's casket  10  11 MR. GRANT:  I'm providing a copy because I've only -- I'll ask  12 to remove these to copy them for myself, I've labelled  13 the "Robert Robinson feast" at the top of the first  14 page.  15 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  And yes, maybe we should mark the book that —  16 for Tommy Muldoe.  It says Steven Robinson, 384.64 as  17 the next exhibit, that's the one we were going to mark  18 before but my friend wanted to confirm.  19 THE COURT:  Yes.  That will be 821.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  There was no —  21 MR. GRANT:  There was no problem with that, my lord.  22 THE COURT:  Thank you.  23  24 EXHIBIT 821 - Feast book relating to Tommy Muldoe  25  26 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Now, the Mary Johnson one, there's a grouping  27 here that says "Smoke", and I can't read the next  28 word, "Expenses July 1969", and it says "Steve  29 Robinson 29.58" at the top.  3 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  31 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  And the one I'm looking at, and I'm being this  32 particular because there are two in a very similar end  33 on the same page with Jack Wright, $4.50 at the  34 bottom.  35 THE COURT:  Yes.  36 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  37 408   Q   This is if for a smoke feast, this first page is for  38 the smoke feast for Mary Johnson?  39 A   Yes.  40 409   Q   And then if we turn over the page it says "Expenses  41 for Mary Johnson", and it's got some -- the first item  42 is scratched out and then under that it says "Mary  43 Johnson 241.85?  44 A   Yes.  That's the amount of money that's found on her  45 when she was passed away.  46 410   Q   All right.  And then "Steve Robinson 350"?  47 A   Yes. 9909  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  411  MS.  MR.  THE  MR.  MS.  MR.  THE  MS.  THE  MS.  THE  MS.  412  THE  THE  MS.  413  414  Q   And does this denote her funeral feast?  A   Yes.  That's her funeral feast.  KOENIGSBERG:  And so there are five pages to this document?  GRANT:  There's six actually.  COURT:  Including the smoke feast there's six.  GRANT:  Yeah.  Including the smoke feast there's six.  KOENIGSBERG:  I'm sorry, the last page was loose on me.  GRANT:  Yeah.  The last page was a loose page on ours as  well, but it says "Lloyd Turner help with coffin".  COURT:  Yes.  KOENIGSBERG:  So if we make that one document, six pages, if  it can be marked as the next exhibit.  COURT:  822.  KOENIGSBERG:  I'm sorry, 822?  COURT:  Yes.  EXHIBIT 822 - Feast book relating to Mary Johnson  and smoke feast  KOENIGSBERG:  Q   Thank you, my lord.  Did anyone take a name at this  feast, at the funeral feast of Mary Johnson?  A   Yes.  That's when my sister Joyce received the name of  Yagosip.  COURT:  The name of Yagosip?  A   Yeah.  COURT:  At the funeral feast?  A  At the funeral feast, yes.  KOENIGSBERG:  Q   And your grandmother, Mary Johnson, had held that name  before?  Yes.  And was your sister Joyce Turner's contribution for  that name $276.25, as indicated on the page under  "Expenses for Mary Johnson"?  Well, you see, take a look at the head chief's  contribution, because I think at that time the money  is kind of hard to come by, so I've got -- already got  names, and then she's the runner-up, so she is -- she  got the name.  415   Q   If I could try and understand what you just said, you  said take a look at the head chief's contributions at  that time?  A Yes, yes. The $350 and Joyce Turner's 276 is hardly  any too much of a difference between the gap. She's  the one that got the Yagosip name because she's -- I  had to talk to her a lot about it, and I believe in my  A  Q  A 9910  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 own mind and the other members of the family she's  2 capable of taking it, so it's the agreement of other  3 chiefs, not only mine.  4 416   Q   Okay.  Were there any other moneys contributed by  5 Joyce Turner, other than the amount shown here at  6 276.25, which would have gone for the purposes of her  7 taking that name that you know of?  8 A   No.  I got no idea because I don't really keep track  9 of who's -- you know --  10 417   Q   Right.  You were at the feast?  11 A   I was at the feast.  12 418   Q   Yeah.  And it would have been announced at the feast,  13 lass ume ?  14 A   Yeah, it would, but I would be busy, you know, helping  15 distributing everything out because a chief doesn't  16 sit down idly, and he's got to do the work too.  17 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  And perhaps for the sake of completeness, we  18 have a separate document here that says "Smoke at  19 Kispiox".  I'm assuming that's what it says, because  20 the top of the letters are cut off on my copy.  21 MR. GRANT:  That's right.  22 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  23 419   Q   For Mary Johnson, and again shows Steve Robinson 285,  24 and it has two pages and it appears to be just a  25 second person having kept track of contributions.  26 This would have been for the smoke feast for your  27 grandmother?  28 A   Yes.  It's -- it's all the feasts it's like that, you  29 know.  There's a -- there's a smoke feast and you have  30 to have somebody to keep track of what's coming in,  31 and then there is -- you know, they'll buy stuff for,  32 maybe carton of cigarettes, whatever, and then they're  33 written down.  This is the reason why, maybe whatever,  34 you know, cookies and things like that, and these --  35 you know, just a small thing so that you can make  36 announcements of the next procedures of the coming  37 event, like field notes and all that, that's -- and  38 then there's -- if we have elders in there sing songs,  39 lament songs, and this is what the smoke feast is all  4 0 about.  41 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Perhaps we could mark that one just as 822A.  42 THE COURT:  All right.  43  44 EXHIBIT 822A - separate page relating to Mary  45 Johnson "Smoke at Kispiox"  46  47 MS. KOENIGSBERG: 11 THE COURT  12 MR. GRANT  13 THE COURT  14 MR. GRANT  15 THE COURT  9911  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  Re-in chief by Mr. Grant  1 420   Q   And then the next one is for Bill Robinson, who is  2 also your brother?  3 A   Yes.  4 421   Q   And that was in February 11th, 1963?  5 A   Yes.  6 422   Q   And you say you were holding the name Mediigemgyet at  7 that time?  8 A   Yes.  Anyone in Yagosip's house I have to move over.  9 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  And that has four pages to it.  If it could be  10 marked as the next exhibit.  This one is February 11th, '63?  That's correct.  Yes.  The Bill Robinson feast?  Oh, yes, all right.  That will be 823.  16  17 EXHIBIT 823 - Feast book relating to Bill Robinson  18  19 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  20 423   Q   And I haven't actually had a chance to look at the  21 Thomas Alfred Wright feast, but perhaps for that  22 reason I won't have it marked, and I just have one  23 last question.  I wonder if as a result of going over  24 this material over the lunch break if you've had an  25 opportunity if you might remember when it was that  2 6 Tommy Muldoe died and you took the name Spookw?  27 A   I believe it's in the 50's, and I can't pin down the  28 dates on it.  2 9    MS. KOENIGSBERG:  All right.  30 MR. GRANT:  There was no record in the original of that Tommy  31 Muldoe about any dates or anything to indicate, my  32 lord.  33 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Those are all my questions, thank you.  34 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Grant.  35  36 RE-EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. GRANT:  37 424   Q   You were asked yesterday by Mr. Mackenzie that -- and  38 you explained that you took the name Spookw after  39 Tommy Muldoe's death, and you were asked, and my note  40 of the question was if somebody said that Johnson  41 Alexander held the name Spookw, that would be wrong,  42 wouldn't it, and I believe you said yes?  43 A   Yes.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's not the question.  45 MR. GRANT:  Well —  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  The question was if someone said you took the  47 name Spookw on the death of Johnson Alexander, that 9912  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Re-in chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  MR.  GRANT  3  425  Q  4  5  A  6  426  Q  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  427  Q  14  15  16  17  A  18  19  428  Q  20  A  21  429  Q  22  A  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  430  Q  30  A  31  431  Q  32  A  33  34  432  Q  35  A  36  THE  COURT  37  A  38  THE  COURT  39  40  A  41  THE  COURT  42  A  43  THE  COURT  44  A  45  46  THE  COURT  47  A  person would be wrong, wouldn't they.  Okay.  My note is as I've said it, I'm not going to --  Johnson Alexander lived after Tommy Muldoe, correct?  Yes.  Where did Johnson Alexander sit in the feast hall  between the time of Tommy Muldoe's death and Johnson  Alexander's death?  Well, to tell you the truth, I haven't seen them  really in the feast hall that much, and I can't tell  you where he sits because he wasn't around that often,  if I can recall.  Do you recall Johnson Alexander sitting in any feast  hall after the time of Tommy Muldoe's death, and  where -- if he did, where did he sit in relation to  you?  Well, you know, when -- after Tommy Muldoe's death he  sits beside me on my right side.  Johnson?  Johnson, yes.  And what name was he called by in the feast?  I told him, because he's having a rough time with  the -- with other people that, you know, you better  come, I said "I need an elder and you can use the name  Johnson and then I'll look after you after you've  passed away", and this is -- and then he didn't show  up right away until later on, maybe about a year or so  after.  You said "You could use the name Johnson"?  Yes, yes.  Spookw, I'm sorry.  Did he use that name in the feast hall?  Yes.  The chiefs called him that, and they called me  Mediigemgyet because I have to honour my elder.  And did he use that until he died?  Yes.  :  Well, what were you then?  Mediigemgyet.  :  Well, I thought you told him he could use both those  names?  Yeah.  Well, when Johnson was still alive.  :  Yes?  And then I sit him alongside of me.  :  No.  But when he was alive what name did you use?  I used both of them before he comes back into the  feast hall.  :  Yes?  And then I said "Johnson", I says "You come back to 9913  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Re-in chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  THE  COURT  3  A  4  5  THE  COURT  6  A  7  THE  COURT  8  A  9  10  11  THE  COURT  12  13  A  14  15  THE  COURT  16  A  17  THE  COURT  18  MR.  GRANT  19  433  Q  20  21  22  23  A  24  25  26  434  Q  27  A  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  GRANT  30  31  32  THE  COURT  33  34  MR.  GRANT  35  A  36  MR.  GRANT  37  THE  COURT  38  A  39  MR.  GRANT  40  435  Q  41  42  A  43  MR.  GRANT  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  GRANT  46  436  Q  47  A  the feast hall".  :  Yes?  Because there's a friction between the other chiefs  against him.  :  Yes?  Which I don't like and I disagree with.  :  All right.  Because I know that he's one of the elders of my  grandfather, you know, that's what -- how I take it,  your honour.  :  But what name did you use when he was using those  names?  Well, when he was using just one name, Johnson  Alexander used Spookw.  :  You used Mediigemgyet?  I used Mediigemgyet.  :  All right.  In answer to a question by Mr. Mackenzie you said that  Yagosip and Guuhadak shared one of Yagosip's  territories.  Which territory of Yagosip is shared  with Guuhadak?  The territory of Xsuwii luu hlabit, you know, Max  Hligandit is the real name, Max Hligandit, that's  north of Bulkley and --  So it's the territory just north of the Bulkley?  Yes.  Just north of the Bulkley up the Babine trail.  :  And is that the one we talked about this morning?  :  It's one of the ones talked about this morning.  It's in section -- I'm just getting his affidavit of  the witness.  :  Well, it's the one that he said was south of  Shegunia Creek.  :  No.  No, it's —  :  Just a moment.  :  It's page 4?  It's north of Shando and Bulkley.  Just a moment, Mr. Robinson  hligandit territory?  Max hligandit territory.  It's the section B territory  Yes.  Which house was your father in?  Nika Te'en.  You said it was the Max 9914  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Re-in chief by Mr. Grant  437  438  439  440  441  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  And which house is your wife in?  Nika Te'en.  You describe in answer to Mr. Mackenzie's questions  that you had gone on and walked on the territory of  Spookw, Spookw's territory.  Have you travelled the  Yagosip territories that you describe in your  affidavit?  Yes.  Have you travelled the Nika Te'en territories that  you've described in your affidavit?  Yes.  Have you travelled the Woosimlaxha territories  described in your affidavit?  Yes.  Could Exhibit 809 be put in front of the witness  please, and his affidavit.  Now, in your description  of the Spookw territory in paragraph 5 of your  affidavit you describe the territory as going as far  west as Mud Flat Creek, and from my reading of the  description and looking at map 9-A, your description  in your affidavit of the Stikyawdenhl territory of  Spookw would encompass or include Dax Sook.  Yes.  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  MACKENZIE:  This is a leading question, my lord.  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE  MR.  442  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT  GRANT  Q  I haven't even asked a question.  I think we're still locating ourselves.  That's what I'm trying to do especially, your  lordship, I'm not asking --  Yes.  I haven't found it at 809 yet.  I haven't seen  Mud Flat Creek on 809.  No.  There's no reference to Mud Flat Creek ever on  809, I'm referring to paragraph 5 of the affidavit.  All right.  Exhibit 809 and your evidence yesterday you explained  that Dax Sook belongs to Yagosip.  You recall that  yesterday?  A   Yes.  GRANT:  Is there any explanation -- can you clarify for me  and for the court why you say the territory  surrounding Dax Sook is in Spookw's and yet you said  yesterday that Dax Sook is Yagosip's?  MACKENZIE:  I think I asked that question directly several  times, my lord.  COURT:  You certainly came very close to that question.  I'm  not sure you got an answer, Mr. Mackenzie.  MACKENZIE:  I sure didn't -- sorry, my lord, in my 9915  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Re-in chief by Mr. Grant  1 submission I didn't receive an answer.  I asked the  2 question several times.  3 MR. GRANT:  I don't think he was ever asked to explain why Dax  4 Sook was in Yagosip's territory, and why he claimed in  5 his affidavit that this area surrounding Dax Sook is  6 Spookw's.  The witness was never asked for an  7 explanation, he was just asked "You say it's  8 Yagosip's", as I recall.  9 THE COURT:  I'm going to allow the re-examination, Mr.  10 Mackenzie.  First, it arose in the cross-examination,  11 secondly, I think your questions were directed to  12 questioning whether it was in the territory or not.  13 And I think it's a fair inference to draw from your  14 cross-examination that you doubted the validity of the  15 entire suggestion of this little pond in the middle of  16 Spookw's territories belonging to Yagosip, whereas Mr.  17 Grant's question presupposes that it does belong to  18 Yagosip and asks the witness how that comes about, and  19 seems to me that there's enough of a difference there  20 that it might be the course of wisdom to allow it in,  21 subject to your objection.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  I agree, my lord, but perhaps I could draw your  23 lordship's tension to the fact that Mr. -- in his  24 affidavit Mr. Robinson says clearly that this lake is  25 in Spookw's territory.  26 MR. GRANT:  Well —  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  At page 3, paragraph 7, item 4 under "Lakes".  28 MR. GRANT:  Well, he says of course that Dax Sook, which he's  29 explained as Wii'goob'l, is a geographical feature on  30 the boundary or within the territory.  My friend  31 focussed on paragraph 7 and I'm focusing on paragraph  32 5.  You can see there that Daxs O'op, number 2, which  33 the witness has described as belonging to Wii'goob'l,  34 is described as a geographical feature within a  35 territory, and he's explained with respect to  36 Wii'goob'l.  I want to ask him about Dax Sook, number  37 4, as another geographical feature and how he can  38 explain, and this apparent contradiction comes about  39 from the introduction of Exhibit 809.  40 THE COURT:  Well, this difficulty arises because of -- because  41 it's endemic to re-examination, and I've said before  42 that there's more difficulty with re-examination than  43 anything else, but I think in the circumstances I'm  44 going to allow the re-examination, subject to the  45 objection.  It will have -- it's a matter that will  46 have to be rationalized at some time, and I think it  47 might be better to allow the question to be answered. 9916  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Re-in chief by Mr. Grant  1 You may proceed.  2 MR. GRANT:  Thank you, my lord.  I probably should restate the  3 question for you.  4 THE COURT:  Yes.  I think you must.  5 MR. GRANT:  6 443   Q   In your affidavit you describe the Spookw territory,  7 and from my reading of paragraph 5 of your affidavit  8 and on looking at the map 9-A, which draws out  9 paragraph 5, it appears that Spookw's territory  10 encompasses the area where Dax Sook, that lake, is  11 located?  12 A   Um-hum.  13 444   Q   You agree with that?  14 A   Yes.  15 445   Q   Yesterday Mr Mackenzie put Exhibit 809 to you and  16 referred you to the fact that that topographic survey  17 sheet refers to a note of Mr. Sterritt of a discussion  18 with you in 1979 that in which you advised that Dax  19 Sook, that lake, was in -- was Yagosip's?  20 A   Yes.  21 446   Q   Can you explain the apparent contradiction between  22 what it says in your affidavit, that Dax Sook -- that  23 whole area is covered by Spookw, and what you said  24 yesterday, that Dax Sook is Yagosip's; would you  25 explain that for the court?  26 A   Your honour, Dax Sook is I believe quite a few years  27 before our time, that to have some kind of a deal,  28 just like Wii'goob'l, and where you can get beaver and  29 fish, and that is the reason why Dax Sook is Yagosip  30 but the surrounding area is Spookw, it's just that  31 lake is claimed by Yagosip and it's put Yagosip's  32 house members' name on it because he is the man that  33 goes and use that particular area, it's not just  34 recently, and it's handed down from all generations  35 and then -- and then when this good lady from  36 Sylvester George's mother was contributing to the  37 feast of Yagosip all the time, so in turn his  38 gratitude he says "You use Dax Sook", and that's --  39 he's the owner of the lake, and then he told to  40 Cecilia George to use it as long as she lives, and I  41 believe Spookw has no complaint about that because  42 they know the situation that Yagosip owns this and he  43 owns the surrounding area.  So I don't think there's  44 any friction in there in the past, and the same way  45 with Wii'Goob'l's claim on Dax Sook.  I hope I  46 explained it the best I can, your honour.  47 THE COURT:  I understand what you're saying.  Mr. Grant, are you 9917  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Re-in chief by Mr. Grant  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  THE REGISTRAR:  going to be some time?  Do you want to carry on or do  you --  I think maybe we should take the break.  I don't  think I'm going to be much longer, I certainly hope we  can commence the next witness.  Yes, all right.  Thank you.  Order in court.  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  MR.  447  REGISTRAR:  COURT  GRANT  Q  Mr.  (SHORT BREAK TAKEN)  Order in court.  Grant.  Yes, my lord.  I'm referring the witness to map -- I'm  referring him to the map series on the berries, and  I'm just going to refer you commencing with map 3 to  the berries.  You described that you went up with your  mother and father to I believe the name would be Lax  andaatw on Stekyawdenhl.  You recall that evidence  yesterday?  A   Lax andaatw?  MR. GRANT:  Lax andaatw, yes.  I'll show you the photographs,  and don't worry about the names above and beside them,  but which of the berries did you pick up there with  your parents?  Now, map 3 says soap berry, and there's  a --  MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, I don't think this is anything to  do with the question I asked or the subject matter  that I was canvassing.  We were talking about  ownership of the territory.  MR. GRANT:  Well, he picked -- this witness picked berries.  I  mean, my lord, the difficulty with the redirect with  these witnesses of course is our direct evidence is  solely the evidence in the affidavits.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. GRANT:  There's no evidence in the affidavits led by this  witness of picking berries.  My friend cross-examined  and raised that issue -- I mean cross-examined, and in  the course of it that evidence came out.  THE COURT:  Your friend says he never raised the question about  what kind of berries they were at all, he merely found  out in the cross-examination by reason of an  unexpected answer of the witness that they went  picking berries at a location.  MR. GRANT:  Well —  THE COURT:  That the identity or the species of berries was  totally inconsequential to the evidence he gave, which 991?  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Re-in chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  MR.  GRANT  5  6  7  8  9  THE  COURT  10  11  12  13  MR.  GRANT  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  THE  COURT  24  25  26  27  28  29  MR.  GRANT  30  31  THE  COURT  32  33  34  35  MR.  GRANT  36  37  38  39  40  THE  COURT  41  MR.  GRANT  42  43  44  THE  COURT  45  46  47  MR.  GRANT  could have importance for other reasons, but not, it  seems to me, for any reason that would be affected by  the kind of berries they were picking.  Well, of course the reference made was to Exhibit  808, which was to Lax Andaatw berry pick area below  the old trapline and down below Dam Similoo, and my  friend knew full well what he -- that he was talking  about a berry picking area.  He wasn't seeking to know -- to either challenge  that or to seek evidence about the kind of berries  that were being picked.  I can't imagine anything that  would be much less consequential than this.  Well, I would have thought so as well, my lord,  except for the fact that an issue has come up already  with respect to other witnesses about the lack of a  connection between these particular berries that the  witness gave evidence of, the witness who introduced  these maps and the berries being picked by the Gitksan  people.  I agree, I think that -- I thought at one  point that was inconsequential as well, but it's not  so, my friends elect to cross-examine and raise  evidence of berry picking.  It seems to me if your friend says "What kind of  berries did you pick" this would then be proper  re-examination, but that wasn't the question at all,  and the evidence stands that they picked berries.  Now, how is it going to advance your case to know what  kind of berries they were?  To establish that the kind of berries being utilized  by this chief and his family were berries.  You're just buttressing his credibility or assisting  his -- well, his credibility.  I don't think his  credibility on the question of picking berries is  challenged.  Well, no, but I'm not introducing this evidence to  buttress this witness' credibility, I'm introducing  this evidence to establish that the specific type of  berry that my friend raises the evidence of what kind  of berry is picked.  He didn't ask that.  No.  My friend raises the evidence that berry  grounds are used within Spookw's territory.  That was  introduced by my friend, it's not in the affidavit.  And that's not challenged.  The witness said it and  he wasn't -- it wasn't pursued with him, and I can't  imagine why I would not accept that evidence.  Well, my lord, but my friends raised the issue of 9919  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Re-in chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  the distancing of the species of berries referred to  in the map atlas as being connected to the berries  picked by any of the Gitksan.  Your friends didn't -- your friend didn't raise the  map atlas in their evidence.  They didn't raise it with this witness.  No.  They raised it of course with the expert witness,  and they have challenged extremely the expert  witnesses, and the expert witness of course could not  say which of these species of berries were picked.  You can't help the evidence of those who gave  evidence about berries in re-examination.  Well, I submit, my lord, what I'm saying is that I'm  not asking this question to establish the credibility  of this witness, but to establish with rescission as  to what he was talking about.  That will go to the  time of year that he was picking berries and all of  those other factors.  But that didn't arise in the cross-examination.  If  your friends had challenged that berries were  available on that mountain slope, then by all means,  re-examination would be admissible, but it seems to me  that you are trying to raise something that's already  established in chief into an issue, and there was no  issue during the cross-examination.  No.  But there was no -- but, my lord, there was no  evidence of berry picking on this area in the  examination in chief of this witness, because the  affidavit --  No.  Your friend found out there was berries on that  mountain slope, they used to go and pick there, that  evidence stands, it's uncontradicted.  Your friend  didn't challenge it, and if it arises again an issue  can be joined on it, but it isn't at the moment.  There are very few things about this case where I feel  that there's much certainty, but I think we've reached  one of them.  I have your point.  This would not be proper re-examination.  Thank you, my lord.  Harmless as I think it may well be.  Well, I only say, my Lord, is that -- of course is  that if my friends are not -- I mean it goes to the  question of the species, and I'm sure we will have  more to say about that or my friends will.  Now, an  area that was raised, my lord, and I'm going to before 9920  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Re-in chief by Mr. Grant  1 asking the witness the question, in case my friend  2 wishes to object, an area that was raised for the  3 first time on cross-examination with respect to this  4 witness was the evidence of genealogies and the  5 genealogy of the Spookw house and the genealogy chart  6 of that house has been introduced, and also the  7 genealogy of the Guuhadak-Yagosip house, and I  8 intended to put to this witness the genealogy chart  9 which was delivered to my friends and ask him if that  10 reflects the genealogy of his house.  There was much  11 cross-examination as to whether this witness was in  12 Guuhadak's house or Yagosip's house and how he fit  13 into the scheme, and that was not raised on direct, so  14 I propose to do that by showing the witness the  15 genealogy chart and asking him if he is -- if he  16 recognizes that as the genealogy of his house,  17 referring at this point to the House of Yagosip and  18 Guuhadak.  19 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I don't know what my friend Mr. Mackenzie has  20 to say about it, but in my submission it would not be  21 proper re-examination to introduce the  22 Guuhadak-Yagosip genealogy.  They were not put to the  23 witness, nor was the form of it challenged of where he  24 fit and why and how he got the names was the object,  25 and not the genealogy.  The witness used the word  26 genealogy in response to some of Mr. Mackenzie's  27 questions, that is that he belonged in this house by  28 genealogy.  I don't know if he meant by this  29 genealogy, but rather I took him to mean by birth, by  30 his parents, but in my submission it's not proper to  31 introduce this document, which was given to us rather  32 late, I might say.  33 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie?  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord.  35 THE COURT:  No.  I don't think I need to hear you, Mr.  36 Mackenzie.  This isn't re-examination, Mr. Grant.  37 MR. GRANT:  All right.  38 THE COURT:  The witness used the word, but your friend didn't  39 embark upon that subject at all.  40 MR. GRANT:  I don't have the record, but I do recall my friend  41 asking about genealogy.  42 THE COURT:  The witness used it and he may well have asked for  43 an explanation by what he meant by his answer, but  44 your friend didn't bring it up or embark on a  45 cross-examination in any way relating to genealogies.  46 He's talking names in houses.  47 MR. GRANT:  Well, he did ask him about the Wii Kaax genealogy 9921  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Re-in chief by Mr. Grant  1  2  3  THE  COURT  4  5  6  7  MR.  GRANT  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  MR.  macke:  15  16  THE  COURT  17  18  19  MR.  GRANT  20  448  Q  21  A  22  449  Q  23  A  24  450  Q  25  A  26  451  Q  27  28  A  29  452  Q  30  A  31  453  Q  32  33  34  35  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  454  Q  42  43  44  A  45  455  Q  46  A  47  and the Gitludahl house being the same as the Wii Kaax  genealogy.  :  That's the way the witness chose to answer about  questions about names he had in houses, that wasn't  the way your friend approached it, or nor do I think  there would be anything advanced by pursuing it now.  :  This morning you were asked about the territory  around Shegunia River, the Gitludahl, Gutginuxw names,  Gitludahl's evidence was referred to, that is Pete  Muldoe, and you described for his lordship about  Andrew Crosby, the late 'Niisgimiinuu, and about Alvin  Weget, and what I would like to ask you is what name  does Alvin Weget hold today?  JZIE:  Excuse me, my lord, I think that answer was --  that question was asked and that answer was given.  :  Yes.  I think it was, but your friend can locate the  witness in this -- in the area that we're going to  examine on.  That's what I intend to do.  He still uses 'Niisgimiinuu, and Dinii.  What house is the name 'Niisgimiinuu in?  Gutginuxw.  What house is Dinii in?  Gitludahl.  Have you seen Alvin Weget sitting in the feast hall  recently within the last year?  Yes.  At whose table does he sit, Gutginuxw or Gitludahl?  Gutginuxw.  You were asked this morning by Mr. Mackenzie about  whether or not you were involved in preparing this in  the work you did with Mr. Sterritt in making a land  claim, and you said in answer "Yes, to make a land  claim partially, but not all".  Why else did you  engage in this work?  Because I'm interested in our own hunting areas, and I  believe that they, you know, if I participate in this  I would try and prove that I am knowledgeable about  Spookw and Yagosip's claim.  You were asked about your history of your work this  afternoon -- or this morning and this afternoon by  Miss Koenigsberg.  When have you last gone hunting?  You mean game hunting or --  Game hunting?  Well, just the day before the -- I'm not really sure  when the season closed, November 18th, I think, but I 9922  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Re-in chief by Mr. Grant  1 think two days before that I stopped going hunting.  2 456   Q   And how often did you go out hunting this last -- this  3 fall?  4 A   Just about every day.  5 457   Q   And what about last year?  6 A   The same.  7 458   Q   Do you recall any year since you were a boy in which  8 you have not gone out hunting?  9 A   No.  I think it's part of my life to go out and hunt,  10 and there's times I couldn't get out because through  11 illness sometimes, but you know, as soon as I feel a  12 little better I go out, and when I'm not working I go  13 out.  14 MR. GRANT:  My lord, I just want to refer you, and you may want  15 to make a note in your own bench book that the seating  16 chart which was introduced as Exhibit 2-1, 2(1), shows  17 'Niisgimiinuu, Alvin Weget, and it shows the seat that  18 he --  19 THE COURT:  Exhibit 2 —  20 MR. GRANT:  Exhibit 2 in the proceedings.  I've photocopied the  21 bottom half of that, and just for your reference only  22 because I couldn't photocopy -- the page was too  23 large.  24 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  25 MR. GRANT:  And just so that I have it clear, I don't need to  26 show this of course to the witness, but which house is  27 Abel Brown or Anda'ap in.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  I object to that question, my lord.  29 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  I mean I'm only trying to connect this to  30 what the witness has said?  31 THE COURT:  Well, this is already -- it proves whatever it  32 proves.  33 MR. GRANT  34 THE COURT  35 MR. GRANT  Yes, it does.  It's a matter for argument.  Doesn't have the name Gutginuxw on it, that's the  36 only reason it was --  37 THE COURT:  Well, the witness has explained that.  38 MR. GRANT:  Yes, okay.  And one other matter is this:  My friend  39 yesterday said in a question to the witness that  40 Jessie Sterritt in her transcript of evidence, page 63  41 or page 64 of her evidence, and it's Exhibit number  42 70(B), said that Seeley Lake was at a territory used  43 by the house by Seeley Lake, and her answer was the  44 lake that is known as Seeley Lake now was referred to  45 as Wii'goob'l's Lake.  I would only ask the court to  46 note that she went on to describe that he used to in  47 referring to Sam Hoak's father from Wii'goob'l's 9923  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Re-in chief by Mr. Grant  1 house.  2  3 "Q    I presume he used to set a net in the area of  4 the fish trap between the area?  5 A    There's a small lake there and a big lake,  6 and he would fish between the two.  7 459 Q    Did he use a fish trap?  8 A    Yes.  9 460 Q    All right.  Would you tell us how would he  10 catch the fish with the fish trap?  11 A    Fish trap is in a barrel shape and they use  12 tree roots."  13  14 And he describes how would they be forced into it,  15 there's a stream that runs from the big lake to the  16 little lake, and this is where they would set the fish  17 trap in between the two lakes.  The fish trap would be  18 set between the two lakes and the stream there and the  19 small fishes in the spring, the trout, all fair size,  20 would come into the trap, they would flow into the  21 trap, and then --  22 THE COURT:  Mr. Grant, isn't this argument?  23 MR. GRANT:  All I'm stating, I just wanted to know, my lord, my  24 friend has suggested to the witness, and I'm not  25 asking the witness a question on it, I just want to  26 note for the record there's a description there which  27 is -- the first -- there's one answer that my friend  28 referred to, but the description seems much more in  29 line with what other evidence be, and I wanted your  30 honour -- I wanted your lordship to have that.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  I object to that, my lord.  32 THE COURT:  Well, you don't need to.  33 MR. GRANT:  I'm not asking a question.  34 THE COURT:  He's not asking a question.  I think Mr. Grant has  35 made an argument, I think it may be useful but it's  36 out of turn, and I don't think it should now call for  37 an argument in reply.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, I'm not arguing, but I referred  39 to that page and the page that followed, and --  4 0 THE COURT:  All right.  That's probably how your friend found  41 it.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  43 MR. GRANT:  I did ask for the reference and my friend had the  44 courtesy of giving it to me.  4 5 THE COURT  4 6 MR. GRANT  4 7    THE COURT  Yes, all right.  Those are all my questions, my lord.  All right.  Thank you, Mr. Robinson, you're excused. 9924  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Re-in chief by Mr. Grant  1 A   Thank you, your honour.  2 MR. GRANT:  My lord, if we could just a have a few moments, if  3 we can adjourn briefly.  4 THE COURT:  Yes, sure.  5 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  6  7  8 (SHORT BREAK TAKEN)  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47     XH2 A. Tom (For Plaintiffs) 9925  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT BREAK)  2  3 MS. MANDELL:  My lord, the next witness is Antoine Tom, if he  4 could take the stand.  5 My lord, I would like to advise that Mr. Tom speaks  6 a little English and he is deaf in his left ear and we  7 are asking that Mr. George Holland be available to  8 assist with respect to the translation.  9 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Thank you, Mr. Holland.  10 Swear Mr. Holland first.  11 MS. MANDELL:  It's Wet'suwet'en to English.  12  13 GEORGE HOLLAND, Interpreter, Sworn:  14  15 ANTOINE TOM, a witness called on behalf  16 of the plaintiffs, after first being  17 duly sworn, testified as follows:  18  19 THE COURT:  Mr. Holland, please interpret that for him.  20 A   Yes.  21 THE COURT:  What's the full name of the witness, please?  22 MS. MANDELL:  The full name is Antoine Tom.  23 THE COURT:  T-O-M?  24 MS. MANDELL:  Yes.  My lord, I have advised my friends that we  25 wish to make one correction to the affidavit and I  26 would like to do that through the witness now.  It's  27 with respect to paragraph 4.  28 THE COURT:  I don't think I have the affidavit, do I?  29 THE REGISTRAR:  I have the exhibit copy.  30 THE COURT:  Is there another copy?  Doesn't matter if there  31 isn't.  32 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  33 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Yes.  34  35 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MS. MANDELL:  36  37 MS. MANDELL:  38 461   Q   Mr. Tom, do you recall swearing an affidavit on May  39 17th, 1988, and is that your signature?  40 A   Yes.  41 462   Q   You said at paragraph 4 that you were instructed about  42 the territory and its boundary by Smogelgem and you  43 mentioned the name David McKenzie.  Was David  44 McKenzie's name David or was he referred to only as  45 McKenzie?  46 A   I only knew him as McKenzie.  47 463   Q   And was David McKenzie your great grandfather? 9926  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  In Chief by Ms. Mandell  1 A   Yes.  2 464   Q   And was David McKenzie's daughter Ben McKenzie's  3 mother?  4 A   Yes.  5 465   Q   And were you then primarily instructed about the  6 territory from Ben McKenzie, rather than from  7 McKenzie?  8 A  My uncle Johnny Dominic was the one that informed Ben  9 McKenzie who worked together.  10 466   Q   And were you primarily -- were you instructed about  11 the territory by Ben McKenzie?  12 A  My uncle Johnny Dominic was the one that instructed  13 me.  14 MS. MANDELL:   Based on that evidence, my lord, we seek to amend  15 the fourth paragraph by striking the words by the  16 former Smogelgem, McKenzie.  17 THE COURT:  Well, he has got Johnny Dominic here.  18 MS. MANDELL:  That's right.  But I don't believe it's accurate  19 that he was instructed by McKenzie, who is there  20 marked David McKenzie, the former Smogelgem.  21 THE COURT:  Are you going to finish this witness this afternoon?  22 MS. MANDELL:  This is the end of my questions.  He is now  23 subject to cross-examination.  24 THE COURT:  So you don't know.  Well, there is no procedure for  25 amending affidavits.  What's required is for the  26 affidavit to be corrected and re-sworn.  I think you  27 have given your friends notice of what you're going to  2 8 do and after the evidence or at some convenient time I  2 9 think you should have the affidavit amended and  30 corrected and re-sworn.  31 MS. MANDELL:  That was then the only place then, in our view,  32 the required correction to be made.  33 THE COURT:  Your friends know about that and there is no  34 prejudice.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  I didn't get the amendment then, my lord.  36 THE COURT:  It's to delete David McKenzie as an informant in  37 paragraph 4.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  So, my lord, that would be delete the words in  39 paragraph 4 "the former Smogelgem David McKenzie" end?  40 THE COURT:  I would think so, yes.  41 MS. MANDELL:  Yes.  Thank you.  The witness is available for the  42 cross-examination my lord.  43  44 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. FREY:  45  4 6 MR. FREY:  47 467   Q   Mr. Tom, you're in the house of Smogelgem? 9927  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1 A Yes.  2 468   Q That's the Laksamshu Clan?  Please refer to Mr.  3 Holland if there is any difficulty at all.  4 A Yes.  5 469   Q That's the right clan.  6 And is that the Wet'suwet'en term for the Fireweed  7 Clan?  8 A Yes, that, we have always been the Clan Fireweed on  9 this earth.  10 470   Q Now, Mr. Tom, what is your Wet'suwet'en name?  11 A In Wet'suwet'en, I am called G'ee Yeeh Ghun.  Not only  12 is it Wet'suwet'en, it's our name in this world.  13 471   Q And is G'ee Yeeh Ghun, is that a chiefly name?  14 A Yes, it's in the past, the Indians have always had  15 Indian names, they never had English names before.  16 472   Q Well, my question is whether the name G'ee Yeeh Ghun  17 is a chief's name or a wing's name?  18 A It's a chief's name.  19 473   Q All right.  20 My lord, that name is in paragraph two of the  21 affidavit.  22 THE COURT:  I see it.  Thank you.  2 3 MR. FREY:  24 474   Q And has that been a chief's name in the House of  25 Smogelgem for sometime?  26 A Yes, it belongs in the House of Smogelgem and  27 Smogelgem is my grandfather.  28 475   Q Who held the name G'ee Yeeh Ghum before you?  29 A Moses Dennis.  30 THE COURT:  I am sorry, Moses?  31 A Moses Dennis.  32 THE COURT:  Thank you.  33 MR. FREY:  34 476   Q And do you know who held the name before Moses Dennis?  35 A Thomas Lolly.  36 THE COURT:  L-O-L-L-Y?  37 A Lolly.  3 8 MR. FREY:  39 477   Q And can you tell the court when you received that  4 0 name?  41 A '81.  42 478   Q And was there a feast when you received that name?  43 A Yes.  44 479   Q And that feast was in 1981?  45 A Yes.  4 6 480   Q Now, Johnny Dominic is named, and I understand the  47 only imformant upon which the affidavit is based; is 992?  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1 that correct?  2 A   Yes, Johnny Dominic and he also worked with McKenzie,  3 who was his uncle.  4 481   Q   In other words, Chief McKenzie, who is Smogelgem, was  5 Johnny Dominic's uncle?  6 A   Yes, that's right.  7 4 82   Q   And what was Johnny Dominic's name?  8 A   His name was G'wis da.  9 MR. FREY:  Can I get a spelling for that name?  10 THE TRANSLATOR:  G-'-W-I-S, D-A.  11 MR. FREY:  12 483   Q   Now, there is a name in paragraph 4 of the affidavit,  13 and it will be painful but I will try to pronounce it  14 to direct your attention to it, it's Ghel Yii?  Do you  15 have a copy of the affidavit?  16 THE TRANSLATOR:  That's his name.  17 THE COURT:  At the start of the third line.  18 MR. FREY:  Mr. Holland, can you ask him whether Johnny Dominic  19 held the name, if you could pronounce it for me, Ghel  20 Yii?  21 A   Ghel Yii.  22 MR. FREY:  23 484   Q   Can you ask him if Johnny Dominic ever held that name?  24 A   He held that name before G'wis da.  25 485   Q   Now, the name Ghel Yii, is that a chief's name in the  26 House of Smogelgem?  27 A   Yes, that's a chief name, Smogelgem's nephew's name.  2 8 486   Q   And I take it the name G'wis da -- can you pronounce  29 that one for me again?  30 A   G'wis da.  31 487   Q   That name is also a chief's name in the House of  32 Smogelgem?  33 A   Yes, I already told you that's Smogelgem's nephew's  34 name.  That's the chief name.  35 488   Q   Well, I am sorry then, I missed it.  I take it that  36 G'wis da is a chief's name and Ghel Yii is also a  37 chief's name in the house of Smogelgem, they are both  38 chief's names.  39 A   Yes, they are both chief names.  40 MR. FREY:  My lord, do you want to stop now or shall I continue?  41 THE COURT:  I am in counsels' hands.  42 MR. FREY:  I believe if I finish the witness by noon tomorrow we  43 will be on schedule.  At least in the court here.  So  44 I am in your lordship's hands.  45 THE COURT:  Can you finish by noon tomorrow?  46 MR. FREY:  Perhaps if we just went a bit further now.  But it's  47 up to your lordship or Miss Mandell. 9929  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1 THE COURT:  Are you all right, Mr. Reporter?  2 THE REPORTER: Yes, my lord.  3 THE COURT:  I think we will continue until 4:30.  Is that all  4 right, Madam Registrar?  5 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes.  6 MR. FREY:  7 489   Q Now, the name of Ghel Yii, who holds that name now?  8 A Nobody is holding that name now but the one -- my  9 uncle's name there has been a smoke feast held and a  10 successor, who is in Prince George -- who is in Prince  11 George, I don't know how it stands at this time.  12 490   Q That's a successor to the name Ghel Yii?  13 A No, G'wis da.  14 491   Q G'wis da.  And, who held the name G'wis da?  15 A Nobody is holding that name at this time.  16 492   Q Who was the last person that held that name?  17 A Johnny Dominic.  18 493   Q And did Johnny Dominic pass away in 1981?  19 A Yes.  20 494   Q Now, have you ever heard Smogelgem referred to as the  21 Chief Of The Sun?  22 A Yes, the sun and the grouse and the owl is their  23 crest.  24 495   Q What about the whale, is that one of his crests?  25 A Yes, that's the Laksamshu, that's the same as Tsayu,  2 6 who own beaver.  27 496   Q I missed the answer, the whale is one of the crests as  28 well?  29 A Yes, that's Laksamshu crest.  30 497   Q Now, there is another plaintiff, and I am probably  31 pronouncing this not very well, Kloum Khun?  32 A Kloum Khun and Tsaibesa was my grandmother.  And  33 Ma'ul. The mother of my mother.  34 MR. FREY: May I have the spelling of the name Ma'ul?  35 THE TRANSLATOR:  M-A-'-U-L.  3 6 MR. FREY:  37 498   Q And the other two names were Tsayu and Kloum Khun?  38 A There is three of them, Tsaibesa, Kloum Khun and  3 9 Ma'ul, my grandmothers.  40 MR. FREY: Does your lordship have that?  K-L-O-U-M, K-H-U-N,  41 that's one of of the named plaintiffs.  42 THE COURT:  I didn't get the third one.  4 3 THE TRANSLATOR: M-A-'-U-L.  4 4 MR. FREY:  45 499   Q You're saying there were three of them, is this your  46 grandmother and her two sisters?  47 A Yes. 9930  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1 500   Q   Now, Kloum Khun is a chief of the Laksamshu; is that  2 correct?  3 A   Yes, that's right.  4 501   Q   And is he known as the owl chief?  5 A   Yes, one of my nephews is Mesdzii.  6 502   Q   I am sorry, I didn't get that last word, Mr. Holland?  7 A   One of my nephews holds the name which is Mesdzii.  8 MR. FREY:  Can you spell that?  9 THE TRANSLATOR:  M-E-S-D-Z-I-I.  10 MR. FREY:  11 503   Q   Is that a chief's name in the House of Kloum Khun?  12 A   Yes.  13 504   Q   Is the owl crest a crest of Kloum Khun or a cross of  14 Smogelgem or is it a crest of both?  15 A   Yes, it's a crest and their house is called Mesdzii  16 Yex House.  17 MR. FREY:  Mr. Michell, if you could spell that for us, please?  18 THE TRANSLATOR:  M-E-S-D-Z-I-I, Y-E-X.  19 MR. FREY:  20 505   Q   Mr. Holland, do you have a translation for that term,  21 Mesdzii Yex?  22 A   It's an Owl House.  23 506   Q   And what I am trying get at, Mr. Tom, is that is  24 Mesdzii Yex a name associated with Kloum Khun or is it  25 associated with Smogelgem or both?  26 A   Yes, they all belong to Mesdzii Yex.  27 507   Q   Now, in the Laksamshu clan, there is the House of  28 Smogelgem and the House of Kloum Khun, are there any  29 other houses in the House of Kloum Khun?  30 A   Yes, I know of some other houses besides the ones I  31 mentioned, and it's Tsayu, they have a house, call  32 that C'a K'en Yex, Beaver House.  Tsayu.  33 508   Q   You and is it Kweese that's the chief of that house?  34 A   Yes, she would belong in that house because she is  35 Tsayu, the same as Mesdzii Yex.  36 THE COURT:  Are we not off on a side trip here?  I thought the  37 question was were there any other houses in addition  38 to Smogelgem and Kloum Khun in this house of  39 Smogelgem?  40 MR. FREY:  In the Laksamshu clan, my lord.  And I believe the  41 evidence that comes out, there is another associated  42 clan.  I will ask Mr. Tom about that now.  43 THE COURT:  Now he is starting to tell me, it seems to me, about  44 other houses in other clans.  45 MR. FREY:  That's correct, my lord, that is the evidence.  46 509   Q   Firstly, Mr. Holland, can you give us the name of the  47 Beaver House?  You gave us a word for that, or Mr. 9931  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1  2  THE  TRANS  3  MR.  FREY:  4  A  5  THE  TRANS  6  THE  COURT  7  MR.  FREY:  8  9  10  THE  COURT  11  12  MR.  FREY:  13  14  15  510  Q  16  A  17  18  511  Q  19  20  A  21  512  Q  22  23  A  24  513  Q  25  A  26  514  Q  27  A  28  29  30  515  Q  31  32  33  A  34  35  36  37  516  Q  38  A  39  40  MR.  FREY:  41  42  THE  COURT  43  44  MR.  FREY:  45  THE  COURT  46  47  MR.  FREY:  Michell, can you give me a spelling for that?  EATOR:  C-'-A, K-'-E-N, Y-E-X.  Correction there, it's Tsa K'en Yex.  EATOR:  T-S-A, K-'-E-N, Y-E-X.  :  What is that, please?  I believe that's the name for what he has termed the  beaver house.  Or it's another name for C'a K'en Yex,  I believe.  :  I have got something else for the Beaver House, are  there two names for the Beaver House?  Well, there are two names, if I understand, Tsayu is  the name of the clan.  Perhaps I can ask the witness,  Mr. Tom, this:  Is Tsayu the name of the Beaver Clan?  Yes, that's a clan name.  And they are associated with  Laksamshu as one.  All right.  And the name Tsa K'en Yex, is that also a  name for the Beaver Clan?  Yes, Tsa K'en Yex is a Tsayu house.  Now, I believe your evidence was that the Beaver Clan  is part of or very close to the Laksamshu clan?  Yes, they are as one, they all sit together.  They all sit together at the feast?  Yes, they all sit together and that is their names.  Do you know when the two clans combined?  I have always known that since I was a small child,  and I have heard my grandmother speak about it, they  ever always been as one.  All right.  So, you have never heard that the  Laksamshu Clan and the Beaver Clan combined in the  1860s?  Yes, they combined but they have always been close,  like where there is killer whales on the coast, there  is Laksamshu down there and Laksamshu around here and  Tsayu, they have always been as one.  And today, is it one clan or two clans?  Yes, they are as one today.  And except their names  are different for some.  So, my lord, that's Beaver and Fireweed that we are  discussing.  :  I don't know if the witness has agreed with you  about the 1860s.  I simply asked him if he was aware of it.  :  I don't know that I have got an answer to that, if  you want to pursue it.  I will repeat that one question. 9932  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1 517   Q   Mr. Tom, have you ever heard that the two clans  2 combined in the 1860s, had you ever heard that  3 anywhere?  4 A   Some may speak of it in that sense, but as far as I  5 know, like I said before, the people from the coast  6 who are Laksamshu where the killer whale comes from,  7 and the Laksamshu here and Tsayu, have always been  8 one.  9 518   Q   Now, when these two clans sit at the feast, Smogelgem  10 sits in the centre; is that right?  11 A   Yes.  12 519   Q   And is Smogelgem the senior chief of the combined  13 clan?  14 A  At this time, as far as I know, all the head chiefs  15 sit in the middle.  16 520   Q   And when you say all the head chiefs, do you mean  17 Smogelgem, Kweese and Kloum Khun?  18 A   Yes.  19 521   Q   Have I missed any out of the head chiefs?  20 A  All the head chiefs sit at -- in the centre in the  21 back and all the younger chiefs who have names also  22 sit -- sit back there at this time, according to where  23 they come from.  24 522   Q   But there are a group of head chiefs who sit in the  25 middle who are the most important chiefs and I  26 understand that three of those chiefs are Smogelgem,  27 Kloum Khun and Kweese and of that group of important  28 chiefs that sit in the middle, I just want to make  29 sure I have got them all.  30 A   Yes, that's right.  31 523   Q   Thank you.  Now of those three head chiefs, are they  32 all equally as important or is any of those three more  33 important?  34 A   Yes, according to where we all live, we all have names  35 and where we have territories we all know where we  3 6 come from.  37 524   Q   Well, I am going to take a run at that one again.  I  38 am asking about the three chiefs that we discussed,  39 Kloum Khun, Kweese and Smogelgem, and I am simply  40 asking if in the clan today are those chiefs all of  41 equal importance or is any of those three chiefs more  42 important than the other?  43 A   Yes, they are all equally as important and wherever we  44 may be situated, wherever we all come from, when we  45 all come together, we all have equal powers.  46 525   Q   All right.  Now, the territory described in your  47 affidavit is a territory around Harold Price Creek; is 9933  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1  2  A  3  526  Q  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  A  13  14  15  16  17  MR.  FREY:  18  19  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  FREY:  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  FREY:  24  THE  COURT  25  MR.  FREY:  26  527  Q  27  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  FREY:  30  31  THE  COURT  32  MR.  FREY:  33  528  Q  34  35  36  A  37  529  Q  38  A  39  530  Q  40  41  42  A  43  44  45  531  Q  46  A  47  that correct?  Yes.  Now Mr. Holland, can you pronounce the name for Harold  Price Creek for me?  Do you have a copy of the  affidavit?  Let me show you.  It's at the top of page  2.  If it will be easier, if you could just ask Mr.  Tom what the name for Harold Price Creek is and then  you can just pronounce it.  Ms. Mandell has pointed out there is a separate  name for the creek, I am asking the name for the  territory.  Yes, that's within the Ses Kwe, you're probably  talking about English name, the area that I know as  Ses Kwe.  And it's -- while I travelled through the  territory, all the different areas have different  names.  My lord, if I could direct you on the territory that  we are talking about -- I don't know if you have a  Canada map there?  :  Yes.  13-A?  Yes, that's right.  :  That's not near the Susqua River, is it?  It's in the lower reaches, my lord.  :  Is it?  Perhaps I can ask the witness.  Harold Price Creek flows into the Susqua River; is  that right?  :  Yes, I see it.  My lord, have you got where Harold Price Creek is  located?  :  Yes, I have got it.  And the point where Harold Price Creek flows into the  Susqua is 12 or 15 miles up from the Bulkley; is that  right?  It's not 15 miles, it's more than that.  More than 15 miles up from the Bulkley?  Yes.  Now the territory along the southern or southwestern  boundary of Smogelgem's territory is claimed by  Goohlaht; is that correct?  There is a mountain range there and which is Caspit's  territory along -- belonging to -- within the Goohlaht  territory, who are Gilseyhu.  Gilseyhu, that's their clan?  Yes, it's Gilseyhu territory would be this side of the  mountain. 9934  S. Robinson (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Frey  1 MR. FREY:   And Mr. Michell, have you got a spelling for  2 Gilseyhu?  3 THE TRANSLATOR: G-I-L-S-E-Y-H-U.  4 MR. FREY:  5 532   Q   And is Caspit a chief in Goohlaht's house?  6 A   Yes, they are chiefs.  7 533   Q   He is a chief in Goohlaht's house?  I am sorry.  8 A   Yes, that's Gilseyhu business.  I don't talk about.  I  9 only talk about the territory which I came from.  10 534   Q   All right.  So you don't -- you can't tell us today  11 whether Caspit's a chief in Goohlaht's house?  12 A   Like I told you before, there are chiefs in different  13 clans and I don't talk about their business.  14 MR. FREY:  My lord, I note it's 4:30.  15 THE COURT:  All right.  We will adjourn until -- can we adjourn  16 until 9:30?  17 MR. FREY:  Yes, my lord.  18 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie is not here -- are you going to need  19 this map again?  The large one.  Mr. Mackenzie is  20 here.  Should it be put away with the exhibits for the  21 last witness or should I keep it handy?  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  That relates to the last witness and it's an  23 aide memoire for your lordship.  We aren't going to  24 refer to it again.  25  26 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED UNTIL 9:30 A.M., WEDNESDAY,  2 7 NOVEMBER 30, 198 8)  28  29  30  31 I hereby certify the foregoing  32 to be a true and accurate  33 transcript of the proceedings  34 herein to the best of my skill  35 and ability.  36  37  38  39  40 Wilf Roy  41 Official Reporter  42  43  44  45  46  47


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