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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1989-01-19] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jan 19, 1989

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 1091?  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 January 19, 1989  2 Vancouver, B.C.  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in Court.  In the Supreme Court of British  5 Columbia, Vancouver, this Thursday, January, 19, 1989.  6 Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen.  7 I caution the witness.  You're still under oath.  8 THE COURT:  Mr. Willms.  9 SYLVIA LOUISE ALBRIGHT:  Resumed  10 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. WILLMS CONTINUED:  11 Q   Ms. Albright, when we left off, we were reviewing some  12 ethnographic references from Barbeau that you referred  13 to in your report.  And I'm placing before you Totem  14 Poles, Bulletin Number 119, the introduction up to  15 page 14.  This was one of the references that you  16 referred to and relied on in your report?  17 A   It's listed in the bibliography as one I have  18 reviewed.  19 MR. WILLMS:  Could you turn to page 6 of that?  And maybe, my  20 lord, before I forget Exhibit 849-27.  21 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  22 (EXHIBIT 849-27:  Tab 27, "Totem Poles", Bulletin 119  23 by M. Barbeau)  24 MR. WILLMS:  25 Q   If you turn to page 6, you'll see that Barbeau says at  26 the top of the page:  27  28 Respecting the totem poles, the poles of the  29 Upper Skeena were in the average erected in  30 the past 50 or 60 years.  The five or six  31 oldest slightly exceed 80 years of age, many  32 of less than 40 years old.  It is safe to  33 say that this feature of native life among  34 the Gitksans became fashionable only after  35 1870 or 1880."  36  37 First of all, are you aware of anyone other than  38 Barbeau who has done a detailed review of the totem  39 poles of Northwestern British Columbia?  40 A   I'm aware that Duff has -- Wilson Duff has studied the  41 totem poles in the northwest.  42 Q   Anyone else?  43 A   They are -- Barbeau notes a number of descriptions  44 by -- of totem poles by early travellers and explorers  45 along the coast.  46 Q   In your archaeological investigations in preparing  47 this report, did you find any evidence indicating the 10919  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 existence of totem poles prior to 1800?  2 A   Totem poles were not a focus of my research.  3 Q   So the answer's no, you didn't, or you weren't even  4 looking for totem poles?  5 A   I did not include totem poles as a part of my  6 investigation.  7 MR. WILLMS:  Cache pits can be historic or prehistoric; is that  8 correct?  9 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Mr. Willms?  10 MR. WILLMS:  11 Q   Cache pits can be historic or prehistoric?  12 A   Cache pits are part of the prehistoric tradition of  13 processing and storing of food.  14 Q   Your survey of the -- or I should say Linda  15 Burnard-Hogarth's survey of the archaeological sites  16 in the area included locations which had historic  17 cache pits and storage pits historically created;  18 isn't that correct?  19 A   No.  20 MR. WILLMS:  Could you please turn to Appendix C of Exhibit 845?  21 And I'm showing you a computer printout from the B.C.  22 Heritage Conservation Branch.  If you wouldn't mind  23 turning to page 31 of Appendix C to Exhibit 845.  24 MR. RUSH:  What was the page, please?  2 5 THE COURT:  31.  26 MR. WILLMS:  27 Q   31.  There is a site listed on page 31 as 95, GeSs 4?  28 A   Yes.  29 MR. WILLMS:  All right.  And if you look on the Heritage  30 Conservation Branch printout, the extract that I  31 showed you, Document 209, on the first page is  32 GeSs-004?  33 THE COURT:  Sorry.  What are you looking at?  34 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, I just handed her -- and your lordship  35 should have a copy.  It's a computer print-out.  Do  36 you see that?  And you note under the remarks --  37 THE COURT:  Which item?  38 MR. WILLMS:  39 Q   It's Document 209, GeSs-004.  It's number 95 in the  40 list on page 31.  In the remarks you'll see that this  41 is an "Area reported to have been picked over by  42 bottle hunters, two large deep depressions, inverted  43 pyramid shape, remains of pack trail terminal, first  44 population concentration in area".  That's -- that's a  45 historic depression, correct?  It was created  46 historically?  47 A   It's referred to as a historic site, yes. 10920  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   Now, at the bottom of page 31 in Appendix C of Exhibit  2 845, you've got a site described as GdSr 6 with the  3 short notation "Historic railway construction camp".  4 And if you turn the page in the printout I handed you,  5 you'll see under Document 184 from the Heritage  6 Conservation printout GdSr 6.  That's the same site,  7 isn't it?  8 A   GdSr 6, yes.  9 Q   Yes.  And the description under the remarks are  10 "Historic railway construction camp with two house  11 platforms and three storage pits".  Do you see that?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Those storage pits are historic?  14 A   Those are related to recent historic occupation.  15 Q   Yes.  16 A   There's -- they are not interpreted as -- as  17 aboriginal pit features used for food storage.  18 Q   No.  Then if you carry over to the next page of  19 Exhibit 845 to page 32 and to your -- your numbered  20 106 and turn at the same time to the next page of the  21 printout that I have handed to you.  106 is GcSl 1?  22 A   Yes.  23 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  I haven't found that yet.  Where is it  24 on the printout?  25 MR. WILLMS:  Pardon me, my lord.  I've got the wrong -- I've got  26 the wrong page number.  It's at page 24, my lord.  27 THE COURT:  Page 24 of?  28 MR. WILLMS:  Of the appendix.  And it's number 39.  2 9 THE COURT:  All right.  30 MR. WILLMS:  31 Q   All right.  Do you have that now, Ms. Albright?  I'm  32 sorry about that.  Number 39 in Appendix C has been  33 identified at GgSw 5 in your appendix?  34 A   Yes.  35 MR. WILLMS:  And there's a note:  "Circular cultural  36 depressions, cache pits".  And that's the computer  37 printout Document 294, GgSw-005, correct?  38 THE COURT:  Document 294?  39 MR. WILLMS:  Document 294.  4 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  41 MR. WILLMS:  42 Q   Do you have that, Ms. Albright?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   If you look down to the collections section, it starts  45 off by noting 15 cultural depressions.  It then lists  46 the depressions.  And you see that at the very last  47 one it says "One modern (in use) square cache pit for 10921  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  7  Q  8  A  9  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  45  46  A  47  THE COURT  storage of potatoes"?  Yes.  So in some of the sites reviewed in preparing your  report you noted historic cache pits?  Are you referring to sites that I have discussed in my  opinion report?  No.  I'm referring to Appendix C.  Appendix C lists sites which have notations concerning  prehistoric cache pit features.  And historic?  As well as definable historic features.  Yes.  And in your work of Tahltan ethnoarchaeology,  you not only noted but photographed cache pits which  had been used historically in historic times?  Cache pits are considered an aspect of traditional  prehistoric patterns of processing and storage of  food.  After contact there was a shift to building  other storage or use of other storage facilities than  the traditional cache pit.  Are you saying that --  And they can be distinguished.  Are you saying that after contact the culture changed  completely?  No.  So that if a cache pit is used the day before contact,  it's likely used the day after contact, the same cache  pit?  It may be.  So that cache pits were used prehistorically and  historically?  Maybe.  And cache pits were created prehistorically and also  created historically?  The term historic is -- can -- can vary.  I don't  understand in what specific sentence you mean  historic.  Well, I'll pick a date.  It's likely in the claims  area that there were cache pits dug by the Gitksan or  Wet'suwet'en in the area in 1850 or later?  In that you're referring to 1850 as a point of --  point of time in which there are recorded documents?  I'm just picking that as a date.  I could pick 1870  and ask the same question.  Let me put it this way:  What date are you confident of that the inhabitance of  the land claim area stopped digging cache pits?  I don't know exactly when.  :  Let me ask you this, Ms. Albright:  On my visit to 10922  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 the area, and I think it was at Shlamgeesh, we stopped  2 for lunch and we were right on the trail that Mr.  3 Blackwater told us that he grew up there.  The old  4 trail is clearly visible.  All around the area we saw  5 cache pits.  6 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  7 THE COURT:  Are you able to give an opinion as to whether those  8 cache pits could have been dug before the advent of  9 the telegraph trail or could they have been created  10 after that time?  11 THE WITNESS:  Most likely before the advent of the trail.  12 THE COURT:  Most likely?  13 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Probably.  14 MR. WILLMS:  15 Q   But possibly after?  16 A   Traditional -- traditional patterns did not stop at  17 one particular point in time.  Traditional patterns  18 have for a lot of subsistence -- economic activities  19 have continued, but most of the -- most of the  20 manifestations that we see in looking at the context  21 in which they're found and what other materials or  22 settlement may have been in the area, then for the  23 most part the archaeological evidence indicates a  24 prehistoric -- what we refer to as a prehistoric  25 pattern.  26 MR. WILLMS:  Could the printout be Exhibit 849-28, my lord?  27 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 849-28.  28 THE COURT:  Can I have a description of what this is?  It's a  29 printout of what?  30 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, what this is, and probably the best — I  31 think there is a -- it's a computer printout of the  32 Heritage Conservation Branch research files.  That's  33 the description in the Exhibit 845.  I think that's  34 the one we should use.  35 MR. RUSH:  Well, I don't take any issue with my friend's  36 description.  I just think it's certainly not a  37 computer printout of everything in the files.  I think  38 we should just point out that it's a three-page  39 extract.  40 MR. WILLMS:  It's a three-page extract, and the document numbers  41 that were referred to the witness are 209, 184 and  42 294.  43 (EXHIBIT 849-28:  Tab 28, Extract of computer  44 printout)  45 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  46 MR. WILLMS:  47 Q   The comment that you just made about cache pits, Ms. 10923  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Albright, about the subsistence use continuing, that  2 applies to cultural depressions as well like house  3 floors, traditional construction of houses.  That  4 continued after contacts as well, didn't it?  5 A   No.  Some house styles are -- in the study area are  6 thought to be earlier -- said to be earlier styles of  7 houses.  8 Q   But Appendix C includes archaeological sites or  9 locations which noted historic cultural depressions  10 naming them as buildings, building sites?  11 A   Yes.  They're quite obvious as more recent use of a  12 particular area.  13 Q   All right.  So that when you say cultural depression,  14 the word cultural depression doesn't denote a date.  15 It just denotes the description of the feature, what  16 it looks like?  17 A   Yes.  It's a generic term, cultural depression.  18 MR. WILLMS:  In — just turning back in Appendix C at Plate A-l,  19 you have a photograph of the ground and polished  20 grooved adze that was found on the surface at  21 Hagwilget.  22 THE COURT:  Whereabouts?  23 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, Plate A-l follows page A-13.  It's in the  24 appendix, my lord, of Exhibit 845.  That was found on  25 the surface at Hagwilget?  26 THE COURT:  What plate are you at, please?  27 MR. WILLMS:  28 Q   Plate A-l.  29 A   It was recovered from a plowed field, yes.  30 Q   And when you did your research on Tahltan  31 ethnoarchaeology, you noted a very similar stone adze  32 and photographed it?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   Was the stone adze that you found in your Tahltan  35 ethnoarchaeology also found on the surface or was it  36 handed to you or how did you obtain it?  37 A   It was from a private collection.  In other words, it  38 had been collected by someone else who showed it to  3 9 me.  40 Q   I am showing you a photocopy of a letter dated  41 December 19th, 1986 from Richard Overstall to  42 yourself.  Did you receive that letter?  43 A   Yes.  44 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, Exhibit 849-29.  45 (EXHIBIT 849-29:  Tab 29, Letter dated December 19,  46 1986)  47 MR. WILLMS: 10924  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   You'll see at the bottom of that letter Mr.  2 Overstall -- did this letter come back to you with a  3 copy of your draft report?  4 A   I had the draft on computer at that time.  5 Q   You see at the bottom Mr. Overstall says -- and in the  6 middle of the very bottom paragraph he says:  7  8 "Rather than have you change sections that I  9 see may be troublesome, I have cut them  10 altogether.  These include much of Chapters  11 2 and 5 and the first part of Chapter 3."  12  13 Did he send back an edited version of your report to  14 you?  15 A   There were specific -- some specific notes.  16 Q   And so there were areas of the report that were cut  17 out by Mr. Overstall?  18 A   No.  He indicated that these were suggestions and that  19 I was to -- I was to edit the report as I --  20 Q   Saw fit?  21 A  As I saw fit, as I considered.  22 Q   Well, he continues on talking about what is being  23 removed from the report and then the trial and then  24 ends at the top of page 2.  The last line of that  25 paragraphs says:  26  27 "This wholesale butchering also has the  28 effect of leaving you with less pages to  29 revise and edit."  30  31 What you revised and edited was the butchered version  32 that Mr. Overstall sent back to you?  33 A   They were -- they were suggestions for restructuring  34 the -- the report, which I considered.  35 Q   And adopted?  36 A  When I put considerable thought into why I might make  37 such changes.  38 Q   And also cuts that were made in the report?  39 A  Areas -- areas which were not directly related to  40 discussion of the archaeological evidence itself or  41 description and discussion of the evidence itself  42 and -- such as a few of the notes as an introduction  43 to -- to the ancestral village survey, which you have  44 presented as an exhibit.  That introduction did not  45 discuss the -- the survey or the specific  46 investigations that -- that I did, and discussion of  47 the specific evidence or data that was recorded, and I 10925  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 felt that that was -- that was an area that was not  2 directly necessary for describing the archaeological  3 evidence.  4 MR. WILLMS:  I'm showing you a document that's entitled "Study  5 Area Number 2, Gitangat".  6 MR. RUSH:  Are we done with 2 9?  7 MR. WILLMS:  8 Q   I'm done with 29.  Can you identify -- is this your  9 handwriting or Deanna Ludowicz' or --  10 A   This is -- these notes were prepared by Linda  11 Burnard-Hogarth, and some of the notes were prepared  12 during discussion of the specific references that she  13 had located.  14 Q   So these were the ethnographic references that you had  15 before you began your investigations for the location  16 of Gitangat?  17 A   Yes.  The reference -- the specific references listed  18 at the last two pages.  19 MR. WILLMS:  849-30, my lord.  20 (EXHIBIT 849-30:  Tab 30, Handnotes)  21 MR. WILLMS:  If you turn to pages 2 and 3, you'll see at the  22 bottom of page 2 the background information about  23 Gitangat and a reference to Men of Medeek and then a  24 description how the migrants came upon an Eagle  25 Village.  And then the beginning of the next  26 paragraph:  27  28 "While locational information is vague, it  29 seems probable that the Eagle Village  30 referred to in Men of Medeek is Gitangat."  31  32 Now, if -- and this was an extract that I put to you  33 from a work that you referred to in your report from  34 Barbeau.  If the eagle clan is -- was created as an  35 immitation of the Russian crest, that would make  36 Gitangat a historic village.  That would put this in  37 historic times?  38 MR. RUSH:  Well, my lord, I think that question should be  39 reframed somewhat, because the clan was not made in  40 the image of a Russian crest.  I think the reference  41 is that it is the crest itself.  And perhaps the exact  42 wording should be put.  I think my friend -- the  43 wording is found at Tab 26, the top of page 5.  44 MR. WILLMS:  Yes.  I should refer to the wording, my lord.  The  45 wording is:  46  47 "The wolves split up into two halves or 10926  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  moieties, one of them the wolves proper and  the other the eagles in immitation of the  Russian imperial crest."  THE COURT:  Where are you reading that from?  MR. WILLMS:  It's at Exhibit, my lord, 849-26.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. WILLMS:  Which is Barbeau, raven clan outlaws, one of the  references to the witness' report.  And it's page 5 --  at the top of page 5 that I just read from at that  exhibit.  The only suggestion I'm making here is that  if Barbeau's correct and if the wolves split up and  one of them, the eagles, were an immitation of the  imperial crest, that that would indicate that Gitangat  was historic, the ethnographic reference.  That's what  I'm suggesting to the witness.  THE COURT:  Your friend is suggesting that that is not an  accurate summary that you're putting to the witness  and that you're equating the crest to the village.  Your friend suggests -- seems to me perhaps more into  argument, but your friend suggests that your question  should be if the eagle crest is an immitation of the  imperial Russian crest, then that eagle crest is  historic rather than the village is --  MR. WILLMS:  I put the question broader because when I read what  Barbeau says, Barbeau has the eagles being created in  immitation of the Russian crest.  That's how I read  it.  That's where they got their name from, the --  THE COURT:  Well, this is —  MR. WILLMS:  And it's a reference that the witness referred to.  Maybe it's argument, my lord.  THE COURT:  We're off the track.  I think if you want to pursue  it, Mr. Willms, you'll have to put it to the witness  again.  No way she can follow this dialogue.  MR. WILLMS:  Q   After your review of Barbeau, did it occur to you that  Gitangat might be a historic village?  A   No.  Q   Now, in your report, Exhibit 844, at page 3-5 -- I'm  now in the Gitangat area.  It's Gf Tc 85 - A, my lord.  3-5, my lord.  And you start the second paragraph referring to a  large food storage area and then say this:  "From ethnographic accounts and previous  archaeological research, it is known that  food storage areas such as this are 10927  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 generally associated with and located a  2 short distance away from summer fish  3 processing sites and winter village sites."  4  5 What ethnographic accounts were you referring to  6 there?  7 A   I referred to thinking of my own research in the  8 Stikine area and the discussion of cache pit areas,  9 food storage areas, also accounts by James Teit.  10 Q   Teit was investigating the Tahltan?  11 A   He was an ethnographer who worked in several different  12 parts of the province.  13 Q   Tahltan included?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   What else?  Do you recall what other areas?  16 A   James Teit?  17 Q   Yes.  Where he's referring to the food storage pits,  18 just those areas.  19 A  What?  20 Q   I'm just interested in the ethnographic sources or  21 locations where the food pits that you describe in  22 page 3-5 are also mentioned by Teit.  Now, one, I  23 think, is Tahltan?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   What other?  26 A   Teit has also done extensive work in the southern  27 interior groups.  28 Q   And food storage pits there as well?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   I'm showing you a B.C. Archaeological Site Inventory  31 Form for Gf Tc 85 - A.  Who prepared this form?  32 A   This was written up by Mr. Brolly.  33 MR. WILLMS:  849-31.  34 (EXHIBIT 849-31:  Tab 31,  B.C. archaelogical site  35 inventory form Gf Tc 85 - A)  36 MR. WILLMS:  37 Q   See on page 2 the description of the small circular  38 cultural depressions.  And then Mr. Brolly says that  39 these are presumptively cache pits.  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   So they may be or they may not be?  42 A   That is a characteristic term that Mr. Brolly uses for  43 meaning that these are interpreted as --  44 MR. WILLMS:  You'll also see that he carries on to note that  45 there were no artifactual materials observed in  46 association with the prehistoric features, but he has  47 a cache of World War I bottles, and then you'll see 1092?  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 down there a Johnny Walker bottle.  2 MR. RUSH:  He says World War I era bottles.  3 MR. WILLMS:  4 Q   Era bottles.  And then notes the Johnny Walker bottle.  5 That's clearly historic, that bottle cache?  6 A   The bottle cache, yes, at the very north end of the --  7 of the site.  Yes.  8 Q   And then he -- you'll also note under 22 -- 23 under  9 site, date and age he's put unknown?  10 A   Yes.  This was filled out a few days after our  11 field -- field work.  So at that point we -- we had  12 not --  13 MR. WILLMS:  Just to fix the location for this site, if you turn  14 in your report to Figure 8, which I have following  15 page 3-3 following Figure 7 -- do you have that, my  16 lord?  17 THE COURT:  Yes.  18 MR. WILLMS:  19 Q   Ms. Albright, do you have Figure 8?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   You'll see that there's an old wagon road noted on  22 Figure 8?  23 A   Yes.  That's adjacent to the railroad.  24 Q   And that was the road that was used by the miners in  25 Doreen to go up to the placer mining location at Lome  26 Creek?  27 A   I am not sure when that road was constructed.  28 Q   Just keeping Exhibit 849-31 and Figure 8 in front of  29 you, I'm showing you some notes that start off Sunday,  30 June 16th, 1985.  Whose notes are those?  31 A   Those are my notes.  32 Q   Your notes.  And if -- I'll mark this in a moment, my  33 lord, because I've got to get another book out, but  34 I'll just continue with it first and then mark it.  35 You say:  "Walked north on old road from Doreen to  36 Lome Creek".  Is that the -- the wagon road that is  37 noted on Figure 8?  38 A   Yes.  We surveyed along the road, in between the road  39 and railroad.  40 Q   And then you -- just carrying down, you note the big  41 flood in 1978, about the middle as you're working  42 down, that washed out a wood bridge over Fiddler  43 Creek, and a site notation.  Then you say "Dates from  44 20's, mining activity on Lome Creek".  And then --  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   -- you note the hotel.  And then can you read the last  47 two sentences there just above the word "ditches"? 10929  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 A   There was apparently a road up to the mining area on  2 the north side of Lome Creek.  3 Q   And the biggest period was the 1920's with 2,000  4 people?  5 A   Yes.  According to -- according to one of the people  6 that we met at Doreen.  7 Q   So is it possible that some of these cache pits may  8 have been associated with the mining activity at Lome  9 Creek?  10 A   No.  They don't appear to be of recent use.  There  11 were no other historic -- except the very isolated and  12 separate bottle cache, there were no other historic  13 period or artifacts in the site area where the cache  14 pits were located.  15 Q   There's no prehistoric artifacts there either, is  16 there?  17 A  We didn't do a lot of subservice testing there, so,  18 no.  We did not record finding other materials.  19 Q   No.  But it is possible that the -- some of the pits  20 are associated, let's just say, with the bottle cache?  21 A   No.  They were quite -- quite distinct, had quite  22 distinct characteristics of cache pits used in  23 prehistoric times given the nature of the rims and the  24 characteristics of the features.  25 Q   Okay.  Well, if you won't agree that they might be  26 associated with mining activity, will you agree with  27 me that some of them may be historic?  28 A   No.  These do not appear to be historic in any way.  29 Q   You're confident in that -- notwithstanding that you  30 didn't dig any test pits and Mr. Brolly says that this  31 site age and/or date is unknown, you're confident that  32 this is prehistoric?  33 A   Yes.  34 MR. WILLMS:  Now, my lord, the notes -- and I've got a new  35 binder.  If we could perhaps mark the binder.  36 THE COURT:  It can be part of Exhibit 849.  Just carry on with  37 the sequence.  38 MR. WILLMS:  Well, the unfortunate thing, my lord, is first of  39 all, I think my 849 is full and I'm afraid it will  40 explode if I put more documents in it, but I have run  41 out of tabs.  42 THE COURT:  I'm just saying that these two books can both be  43 849.  44 MR. WILLMS:  Well, I started with Tab 1.  45 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, then this can be 849A.  46 MR. WILLMS:  All right.  47 (EXHIBIT 849A:  AGBC Cross-exam Book III) 10930  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 MR. WILLMS:  And I'd ask that the notes made by Ms. Albright be  2 8 4 9A Tab 1.  3 THE COURT:  Yes.  4 (EXHIBIT 849A-1:  Tab 1, Handnotes of S. Albright  5 dated June 16, 1985)  6 MR. WILLMS:  7 Q   The next site that you investigated in that area you  8 called Gf Tc 85 - B.  And I'm showing you a British  9 Columbia Archaeological Site Inventory Form with that  10 designation on that.  Is this also made out by Mr.  11 Brolly?  12 A   This is his handwriting, yes.  13 Q   This was where you did a test pit inside a house and  14 concluded that a carbon-stained layer in the pit was a  15 hearth?  16 A   Yes, it was.  17 MR. WILLMS:  Can the inventory form, my lord, be 849A-2?  18 THE COURT:  Yes.  19 (EXHIBIT 849A-2:  Tab 2, Archaeological site inventory  20 form Gf Tc 85 - B)  21 MR. WILLMS:  22 Q   Now, I'm showing you some notes that are dated June  23 20th, 1985 at the top right-hand corner.  Can you just  24 confirm that the drawing here is taken from the  25 location Gf Tc 85 - B?  26 A   Yes.  These are our field notes at that site.  27 Q   Who made those notes?  28 A   They were made by myself and Deanna Ludowicz.  29 Q   And attached to the two pages of notes are a feature  30 record form for the site and a radiocarbon sample form  31 from the site?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Just referring to the last page, the sample form, did  34 you use this sample form for all of the radiocarbon  35 samples that you took at Moricetown?  36 A   These are -- these are standard forms.  They are often  37 used by an archaeologist in different ways to organize  38 the information concerning features.  39 Q   Did you use forms like these at Moricetown to record  40 your radiocarbon samples?  41 A   Yes.  I believe I made notes on --  42 Q   What did you do with those notes?  43 A   They were with the -- I believe they were with the --  44 the other field notes, the other notes.  45 Q   They weren't.  Do you have any other idea where they  46 might be?  47 A  Well, I had kept them with little notes. 10931  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   Just turning back to the first page, you have shown  2 the test pit location on the drawing as the  3 rectangular box on the right-hand side of the square  4 box at the top?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   Isn't it unusual for a hearth to be located near a  7 wall?  8 A   This depression represents the -- the central  9 depression within a larger house structure, so it  10 wouldn't have been close to an outside wall.  11 Q   Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but am I reading this  12 wrong when I read the heavy black square line around  13 being representative of the outside wall and the  14 lighter line in the middle being representative of the  15 lower area in the depression, the depressed area?  16 A   The -- no.  The black line does not represent a wall.  17 It represents the surface rim of the depression.  18 Q   These houses -- from your ethnographic research, these  19 houses were made of wood?  20 A   The superstructure, yes.  21 Q   And wasn't it usual in these houses to have the hearth  22 in the centre of the feature?  23 A  As far as I understand, yes.  24 Q   So to confirm that this was indeed a hearth, it would  25 have been good practice to dig a test pit right in the  26 middle of the depression?  27 A  Within the centre of the depression would indicate --  28 here we have seen in a profile aspects of the slumping  29 of the depression and aspects of the floor of the  30 depression.  31 Q   But the dotted -- the light line on the inside shows  32 where the slumping stops and the flat part in the  33 middle of the depression roughly starts, correct?  34 A   Yes.  The -- the dotted area there indicates that it  35 was a levelling of the interior of the depression.  36 Q   And so if you dealt -- dug another test pit anywhere  37 else in there, you could tell whether or not that  38 carbon-stained lens extended over the whole bottom of  39 the depression?  40 A  Another test unit would indicate what other -- it  41 would indicate other aspects of the feature, yes.  42 Q   And if you did a test pit in another location within  43 that cultural depression and if you found a carbon  44 layer similar to the layer that you found in the test  45 pit that you dug, that would indicate that perhaps  46 there was something other than a hearth involved?  47 A  Well, within a floor area that size, there may have 10932  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 been more than one -- one central hearth.  There may  2 have been two hearth areas within the house feature.  3 There may have been -- it's possible that hearth  4 feature would shift in terms of its exact location  5 within that central depression.  6 Q   But it's also possible if you found the same carbon  7 staining in a test pit at the same layer in another  8 area, that it's indicative of a fire that was general  9 over that area?  That was -- might not be a hearth?  10 A   There might be other reasons for -- for charcoal to  11 develop.  12 Q   Yes.  And, in fact, in your report you describe  13 hearths and what you found adjacent to hearths at  14 Moricetown at page 2-4.  And if you could just turn  15 back to 2-4, you -- on page 2-4 in the middle of the  16 page you describe the three hearth features, and then  17 at the end of that discussion you note:  18  19 "Small pieces of burnt bone, lithic  20 debitage, and artifacts deposited around the  21 surface of the two hearths, features 15 and  22 17, indicate cooking, eating, and lithic  23 manufacturing activities during the period  24 of deposition."  25  26 When you excavated the test pit that is described in  27 your notes, you didn't find any artifactual or faunal  28 material at all, did you?  29 A   Not -- not in the unit -- I did not find artifactual  30 material in the unit excavated within the house  31 depression, but one close by.  32 Q   So all you can really say about that carbon-stained  33 soil is that it was likely caused by a fire?  34 A   Carbon is related to burning of organic material.  35 Q   But there are none of the other usual indicators  36 associated with a hearth that were found in that test  37 pit, correct?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   So that it is possible that that carbon-stained layer  40 was caused by a natural fire?  41 A  A natural fire of?  42 Q   That is a fire that was not caused by humans.  It was  43 caused naturally by mother nature.  That's what I  44 mean, a forest fire.  45 A   Oh, a forest fire.  This appears quite distinct from a  46 forest fire.  The -- the carbon staining observed is  47 clearly an aspect of the house depression itself and 10933  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 occupation of -- or use of that house feature.  2 Q   But putting the house feature to one side for a  3 moment, just finding the carbon staining in a soil  4 pit, does that tell you that the carbon staining was  5 caused by -- just looking at what you saw, that tells  6 you that the carbon staining was caused by a fire  7 created by humans?  8 A   The context of that is most significant, yes.  9 Q   But I'm just asking you if you put aside the context  10 of the house depression for a moment and just focus on  11 the staining that you saw, is that staining indicative  12 of a possible forest fire?  13 A   The -- that evidence is -- is interpreted in the  14 context in which it is found.  Archaeological  15 materials are always interpreted in terms of the  16 context in which they're found.  17 Q   So that when you find a carbon-stained layer in a  18 house depression, you stop right there and conclude  19 that it's a human caused fire?  20 A   I look at a number of factors that come together at --  21 at this point.  22 MR. WILLMS:  What were the other factors?  23 MR. RUSH:  Excuse me.  I had the impression that the witness was  24 going to continue, but your question was elicited as  25 well.  26 MR. WILLMS:  27 Q   Other than the house depression and the carbon stain,  28 what were the other features?  What were the other  29 indicia that this is human caused?  30 A   The -- the features as a group and their location as  31 site, the characteristics of the features at that  32 site, including this house depression, the artifact  33 material that was found in -- in the close by test  34 unit, which --  35 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  Found where?  36 THE WITNESS:  The artifacts found in another test unit just a  37 few metres away.  38 MR. WILLMS:  39 Q   Six metres?  40 A   Yes.  Probably.  41 Q   That's about 20 feet?  42 A   6 times 3 is 18, 19 feet.  And those artifacts were  43 found in the same cultural layer as observed -- the  44 same layer as observed in the test unit in the house  45 depression, the -- the carbon-stained lens, several  46 pieces of data or pieces of information that together  47 led to the interpretation of the site in our 10934  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 understanding of the site.  2 Q   So just to get back to the original question, in your  3 view it is impossible that that carbon staining was  4 caused by a forest fire?  5 A   It appears distinctly cultural.  6 Q   The question is not probable but impossible.  Is it  7 impossible that that was caused by a forest fire?  8 A   Yes.  9 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, perhaps we could mark that as 849A-3 and  10 then this may be an appropriate time to take the  11 morning adjournment.  12 (EXHIBIT 849A-3:  Handnotes of S. Albright dated June  13 20, 1985)  14 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  15 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will recess.  16  17 (Proceedings adjourned)  18  19  20  21  22 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  23 a true and accurate transcript of the  24 proceedings transcribed to the best  25 of my skill and ability.  26  27  28  29 Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  30 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 10935  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 10935  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED AFTER A SHORT RECESS)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Willms.  5 MR. WILLMS:  6 Q   Ms. Albright, could you please turn to figure six in  7 your report.  It's immediately after page 3-2, and  8 it's a map of the Gitanget study area.  And you have  9 recorded archaeological sites on this map, and just  10 starting at the top right hand -- the top site GfTc 2.  11 That's a historic site, isn't it?  12 A   GfTc?  13 Q   GfTc 2.  If you want to refer to the appendix, it's at  14 page 20 of Exhibit 845, appendix C.  Number 15 you  15 will note that it's a fish camp with five standing  16 buildings noted in 1971.  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   So that one is historic.  GfTc 3, which is described  19 immediately --  20 A   Excuse me.  The fish camp, there was a fish camp with  21 standing structures indicating recent use.  There was  22 also buried deposits, cultural deposits recorded at  23 that site as well.  24 Q   But there was no notation on the heritage branch form  25 that that was prehistoric, the deposit?  26 A   Buried cultural deposits are -- reflect occupation,  27 which is generally prehistoric in its description.  28 Q   I am showing you a computer printout from the Heritage  29 Conservation Branch, and if you look to the very  30 bottom of that printout, you will see under document  31 367 the site is GfTc 2?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And if you read over to the next page under "type",  34 the line "type" says:  35  36 "Historic, habitation; historic, subsistence  37 feature, drying rack."  38  39 Now, there is nothing prehistoric about that, is  40 there?  41 A   The computer printout is a summary of information on  42 the original forms, and the notation that we have  43 listed in the appendix C indicates that buried  44 deposits were noted at the site, and these may have  45 been noted in Ames' report on his survey.  46 Q   Well, I am just going by the printout, which in your  47 appendix in your report, if you turn to your report, 10936  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 appendix C, the very first page of appendix C, which  2 says what appendix C is composed of.  It says it's  3 composed of four sections.  The first section has a  4 chronological review of the research, and includes all  5 published and unpublished reports identified in a  6 computer search of the Heritage Conservation Branch  7 Research files.  8 Now, are you suggesting that for some of these there  9 was something more that was used?  You didn't do this,  10 did you?  Linda Burnard-Hogarth put this together.  11 A   There have been more information in Ames' report.  12 Q   Where is that report?  13 A   That is noted as his 1971 report on -- or a report on  14 his 1971 survey of the -- along the Skeena valley.  15 The notation listed in the appendix C indicates that  16 there was both prehistoric remains as well as historic  17 use of that fish camp or fishing village.  18 Q   Do you have that extract in your materials anywhere?  19 MR. RUSH:  Well, it's referred, My Lord, at page 5 of appendix  20 C.  Is that the extract my friend is seeking?  21 THE WITNESS:   Yes, page 5 of appendix C refers to Ames' survey,  22 and the report by Ames on that survey, Ames, 1972.  23 MR. WILLMS:  24 Q   Well, let me -- just so that we know that we are --  25 did you look at Ames' report and see on Ames' report  26 that he suggested that there was prehistoric activity  27 at this site?  28 A   Yes, that was -- it's indicated in the appendix C that  29 that report was consulted.  30 Q   No.  I am saying have you, have you yourself, not  31 Linda Burnard-Hogarth, have you looked at Ames' report  32 and have you personally confirmed that Ames says that  33 there is prehistoric activity at that site?  34 A   I reviewed Ames' report, yes.  35 Q   And he doesn't --  36 A  And I would need to go back and re-look at Ames'  37 report.  38 Q   Yes.  39 A  Again.  40 Q   You see, it's possible that one to two feet of  41 cultural deposits could be built up in the historic  42 period, isn't it?  43 A   Not likely.  44 Q   Well, what about the Vancouver garbage dump.  That's  45 deeper than one to two feet, isn't it?  46 A  We are talking about a very different kind of cultural  47 refuse. 10937  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   Just hold it a minute now.  2 THE COURT:  Are you suggesting that's a rich historical site?  3 MR. WILLMS:  It may be, My Lord.  4 THE WITNESS:  It would be interesting for some archaeologists.  5 MR. WILLMS:  Well, I may — My Lord, let's mark that document,  6 and I will see if I can find Ames somewhere.  7 THE COURT:  Yes.  849A-4.  8 MR. WILLMS:  849A-4, My Lord.  9 THE COURT:  Yes.  10  11 (EXHIBIT NO. 849A-4 - TAB 4 - COMPUTER  12 PRINTOUT FROM HERITAGE CONSERVATION FILE AGBC)  13  14 Q   Now, just carrying on with figure six.  The next site  15 identified is GfTc 3 with a triangle.  That's on  16 page -- at page 20 of your appendix, and you have  17 identified as barked cedar trees and cultural  18 depressions.  Page 20 of appendix C.  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   Now, the bark cedar trees would indicate that it was  21 likely that it was historic.  I mean, these are living  22 trees with bark stripped off them, is that correct?  23 A   Yes, these trees have been modified by stripping of  24 cedar bark for a variety of purposes.  And 28,  25 cultural depressions.  26 Q   So the barking would indicate that it's likely a  27 historic location?  28 A   It's more likely to be prehistoric in this context.  29 Q   So it's —  3 0 A  And —  31 Q   So these bark cedar trees are more -- you didn't see  32 them, did you, you just referred to the report that  33 said bark cedar trees?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   You don't know whether the cedar trees are fifty years  36 old or a hundred years old?  37 A   The -- I am relying on the record or the observations  38 of the archaeologist who recorded this site.  39 Q   Well, you know that there was test pitting carried out  40 there, no cultural materials found, or do you even  41 remember that?  42 A   It's difficult to remember all the details of more  43 than 200 sites in the area.  44 Q   Yes.  So that it's possible that that's historic,  45 barked cedar trees?  46 A   Not likely.  47 Q   But possible? 1093?  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 A   In this context.  The association at the site of cedar  2 bark stripping and cultural depressions --  3 THE COURT:  Well, isn't there a notation anywhere about age of  4 the trees?  5 THE WITNESS:  I don't recall from the site record.  6 MR. WILLMS:  7 Q   Well, I am showing you the Heritage Conservation  8 Branch printout.  If you look at the bottom of the  9 printout, document 435, GfTc 3, that's the site you  10 are referring to on figure six.  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And if you turn to the second page of the Heritage  13 Conservation Branch printout, you will see that under,  14 for example, "type", if you come down below  15 "ethno-linguistic", "type" is:  16  17 "Cultural material, surface, culturally  18 modified tree, subsistence feature,  19 depression, cache."  20  21 There is nothing in that line that says that it's  22 not possibly historic, is there?  When you read that  23 line it's possible that this is historic.  And  24 please -- just read the section under "collections"  25 down below.  2 6    MR. RUSH:  And "remarks".  27 MR. WILLMS:  And "remarks".  28 Q   Is there anything in this report which allows you to  29 date this at all?  30 A   There is no indication after specific date of use, but  31 the description is typical of pre-contact  32 archaeological sites.  33 Q   And after contact, all previous culture was abandoned,  34 is that correct?  35 A   No.  36 Q   It was continued, wasn't it?  37 A  Aspects of traditional subsistence patterns were  38 continued.  39 Q   Yes.  So this -- including bark trees?  40 A   Possibly.  41 Q   So this could be historic?  42 A   From the description given here, and this is a summary  43 of information on the site form, original site form,  44 it is indicative of typical pre -- what is referred to  45 as prehistoric cultural activities.  46 Q   And post-historic?  In other words, historic too,  47 prehistoric and historic? 10939  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 A   It is most likely to be an example of prehistoric site  2 use.  3 Q   And to be sure, you would have to date the tree,  4 correct?  5 A   To know when the trees were barked at a specific point  6 in time, further investigation would be needed.  7 Q   Right.  And you don't know the average age of trees in  8 this area?  That's not within your realm of expertise?  9 A   I haven't observed this site directly myself.  10 Q   No.  11 A   But the forest within that locality is a mature  12 hemlock cedar forest within the general locality.  13 MR. WILLMS:  My Lord, might that be Exhibit 849A-5.  14 THE COURT:  Yes.  15  16 (EXHIBIT NO. 849A-5 - COMPUTER PRINTOUT FROM  17 HERITAGE CONSERVATION FILE)  18  19 Q   Now, the next -- just carrying on down figure six.  20 The next site noted is GfTc 14, and it's just above  21 your location of all of the two -- of all of the cache  22 pits, or is that the house depressions?  23 A   It's a cache pit area.  24 Q   So just above is GfTc 14, and if you refer to your  25 appendix, page 20, you will agree with me that this is  26 a historic habitation site.  27 A   Yes, that is recorded as a historic habitation, recent  28 habitation.  I remember we did observe this site as  2 9 we -- adjacent to the roadway.  30 Q   And the next one day GfTc 13 is -- excuse me -- also  31 habitation.  It's item 12 on page 20.  That's  32 historic?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   Now, the next one, GfTc 1, is the one that is referred  35 to as an isolated find, a spall scraper up under item  36 11.  And I suggest this item was found on the surface  37 and it could be historic as well, as far as you know.  38 A   No.  39 Q   Why not?  Can you describe a spall scraper?  What does  40 spall mean?  41 A  A spall is a flake that has been removed from a river  42 cobble, and it is an outer flake, so it has cortex or  43 the outside surface of the cobble attached to it -- on  44 it.  And they are generally retouched by flaking in  45 some way, and often used as a scraper or large  46 cutting -- could be large heavy-duty cutting tools.  47 Q   But those kind of scrapers continued to be 10940  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 manufactured in historic times, didn't they?  2 A   The —  3 Q   I mean after contact.  4 A   The cobble using -- using river cobbles is an aspect  5 of technology that is found from earliest occupations  6 into late prehistoric -- late pre-contact times.  7 Q   It's just knocking -- it's knocking a rock against a  8 rock to shape it.  Isn't that all that it is when you  9 make a spall scraper?  10 A  Well, it takes a considerable amount of knowledge and  11 expertise to manufacture suitable tools.  12 Q   But that's how you make a spall scraper, you bang one  13 rock against another?  14 A   It is flaked with a hard hammer, hard stone hammer.  15 Q   Or flaked just by hitting the rock on a larger rock  16 maybe?  17 A   Tools may be made by polar technique, in which the  18 cobble or materials placed on an anvil stone and used  19 with a stone hammer or flaked with a stone hammer.  2 0 Q   And in fact when you were doing Tahltan  21 ethno-archaeology you took photographs of a person  22 flaking a stone, and I am showing you page 59 of your  23 Tahltan ethno-archaeology.  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Making a stone scraper?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   In historic times?  28 A   Tools in the specific context of hide working are  2 9 sometimes made by this woman.  30 Q   In historic times?  Yes?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   So that when you read that somebody found a spall  33 scraper, all that tells you is somebody's found a  34 stone scraper, correct?  You didn't see this spall  35 scraper, did you, that Ames picked up?  36 A   I don't remember examining it.  I'm not sure if it was  37 in the collection sent us by the National Museum.  38 Q   So it could be prehistoric or it could be very similar  39 to what you took a photograph of in Tahltan  40 ethno-archaeology, you just don't know?  41 A   The spall tool that Ames collected at that site was  42 from an eroding creek bank, and at which there may  43 have been a larger prehistoric site at one time.  44 There was no indication of recent habitation at  45 that -- on that creek bank to indicate that someone  46 had been making the tool recently, and --  47 Q   Well, that's -- what does IR 8 mean on figure six? 10941  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Does that mean Indian Reserve?  It's just above the  2 dark GfTc 85 B.  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   All right.  And IR means Indian Reserve?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And that's where GfTc 1 is located, either there or  7 close by?  8 A   GfTc 1, as I recall, is on a tributary creek to the  9 north of Fiddler Creek.  10 Q   Will you agree with me that that spall scraper, as far  11 as you know, not having examined it, could have been  12 created after contact?  13 A   In the context on which Ames found it, no, not likely.  14 THE COURT:  Did Ames describe it as historic or prehistoric?  15 THE WITNESS: No, his understanding of it was prehistoric.  16 THE COURT:  Is that what he said?  17 MR. WILLMS:  18 Q   What are you referring to when you are suggesting what  19 Ames suggested?  You must have something in mind, a  2 0 document in mind.  What document is it that you are  21 thinking about?  22 A  Well, in his report the -- on his survey along the  23 Skeena River from us to Kispiox, I believe, was he was  24 examining areas in an effort to look for early  25 occupation sites, so he was concerned about buried  26 deposits and materials indicative of occupations 2 to  27 5,000 years old, comparable to that -- sites he had  28 recorded in Hagwilget Canyon.  29 Q   Have you seen anywhere a written reference by Ames to  30 this spall scraper describing it as prehistoric?  31 A  My understanding is that he identified this as a  32 prehistoric site.  33 Q   Well, put your understanding to one side, unless you  34 read something.  Did you read anything written by Ames  35 where Ames described this spall scraper as  36 prehistoric?  37 Q   Maybe this would help you.  If you look at tab 5 of  38 Exhibit 847.  39 THE COURT:  I'm sorry?  40 MR. WILLMS:  It's tab 5, My Lord, of Exhibit 847.  It's the big  41 binder put in evidence by the plaintiffs.  42 THE COURT:  Yes.  43 MR. WILLMS:  44 Q   This is the site survey by Ames that you have referred  45 to?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   If you turn to page 2. 10942  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 THE COURT:  Tab 7?  2 MR. WILLMS:  Tab 5, My Lord.  3 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  4 MR. WILLMS:  5 Q   If you turn to page 2, you will see under four the  6 kinds of sites located.  Are you with me?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Under number 4 being:  9  10 "Four fishing localities, all still in use,  11 except possibly one."  12  13 And then he's got:  14  15 "GfTc:l, GfTc:2, GgTc:l, GgTb:1."  16  17 That's what Ames described.  And then further down  18 he describes the flaked cobbles, and then says:  19  20 "Only one flaked spall was found in a fine  21 particle sand matrix.  This is the only cobble  22 tool locality given a site designation."  23  24 A   Yes.  And understanding the nature of cobble tools and  25 the timeframe in which cobble tools have been used in  26 the past, he appears to be referring to a tool  27 characteristic of pre-contact times.  28 Q   I am showing you Tahltan ethno-archaeology at page 59  29 again.  In figure 24 are those cobble tools, the high  30 dressing stones.  31 A   They are based on cobbles.  32 Q   And in fact that's what the woman is making in the  33 picture in 23, a cobble tool, correct?  34 A   She is manufacturing a stone tool, yes.  35 Q   A cobble tool?  36 A   Based on a pebble to -- using a pebble to a cobble.  37 Q   Yes.  So I am suggesting again that that cobble spall  38 that Ames found and described at tab 5 of Exhibit 847  39 could be post-contact.  40 A   Not likely from the context in which it has been  41 found, and the understanding of archaeologists working  42 in that area to the timeframe that cobble tools have  43 been used in that area along the Skeena.  44 Q   Well, if you won't agree --  45 A  Again, I would like to indicate that the context in  46 which the material is found is also significant.  47 Q   Further on in tab 5 is the site form done by Ames on 10943  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 GfTc 2, which was the first one you gave evidence  2 about at the top of figure six.  3 And, My Lord, it's partway through, about ten or  4 eleven pages into the tab.  5 THE COURT:  Where does it give the reference?  6 MR. WILLMS:  The reference is at the top right-hand corner.  7 Q   It will be a British Columbia Archaeological Site  8 Survey Form, site number GfTc 2.  Do you have that?  9 A   You are referring to GfTc 1?  10 Q   No.  If you keep going.  11 THE COURT:  Yes, I have it.  Thank you.  12 MR. WILLMS:  13 Q   There.  All right.  Now, you will see that Ames'  14 description under 14 is 5 standing buildings and  15 drying racks.  Do you see that under item 14?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Is there anything on this form that indicates that  18 that site, GfTc 2, is prehistoric?  19 THE COURT:  Well, there is answer 23.  20 MR. WILLMS:  21 Q  Yes, 23 says:  22  23 "The site was occupied by Indians in historic  24 times until 1971."  25  26 You see that's what has been filled out.  Is there  27 anything on the form that indicates to you that GfTc 2  28 is prehistoric?  29 A   The depth of deposit under six.  30 Q   One to two feet?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Anything else?  33 A   In that -- the occupation he notes evidence of  34 occupation of this fishing camp in recent times.  The  35 depth of the deposits is also indicative of longer  36 term occupation at that site and building up of  37 materials.  38 Q   How can you say that, when the remarks on paragraph 29  39 are "Site does not appear promising"?  One to two feet  40 really doesn't mean anything, does it?  41 A   Because in Ames' report he indicates that he was  42 conducting the survey to look with the objective in  43 mind of locating early sites, sites that are  44 comparable to Hagwilget Canyon.  3 to 5,000 years old,  45 that -- and as noted in the -- in our discussion of a  46 survey, his attempt to look for very old sites may  47 have caused him -- probably caused him to overlook a 10944  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  Q  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  THE  COURT:  11  MR.  WILLMS  12  13  THE  COURT:  14  MR.  WILLMS  15  Q  16  17  18  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  THE  COURT:  46  47  MR.  WILLMS  lot of sites along the area that didn't have such a  deep deposit as he was anticipating for Hagwilget  Canyon.  Now, just carrying on and putting Ames to one side and  carrying on down figure six to the next site location,  GfTc 16.  And if you would turn, please, to page 20 of  your appendix C, Exhibit 845.  You will agree with me  that GfTc 16 is historic?  Yes, it is.  Sorry, this is on page 20? This is which number?  : On page 20 it's number 10, My Lord, section of a  wooden bridge formerly spanning Fiddler Creek.  All right.  Now, just putting GfTc 1 to the side for a moment.  All of the other previously recorded archaeological  sites record historic use at the site or potential  historic use at the site?  Recent historic occupation has been noted at GfTc 14,  13 and 16.  And Ames noted it at Tc 2 to 171 at the top?  The buried deposits there are suggestive of  pre-contact occupation over a period of time.  Yes.  But accepting that, there is also historic use  at the site recorded by Ames?  There is also historic use of that site, yes.  And at GfTc 3, depending on the date of the trees,  could be historic, could be prehistoric?  Most likely prehistoric.  But could be historic?  Given the cultural features noted at the site, the  bark stripping and the features suggestive of cache  pits, it is not likely to be recent.  But possible?  Indicative of prehistoric use and occupation, yes.  So when you reviewed the historic and prehistoric  previous archaeological sites in the area and  considered the bottle cache that you found at one  location and the close proximity to the mining road,  didn't you conclude that the sites that you reviewed  were really historic?  They were probably historic and  not prehistoric?  No, I did not conclude that.  I would like to turn now to Temlaxam.  Just a moment.  I want to finish a note here.  Thank  you. 10945  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  MR.  WILLMS  8  THE  COURT:  9  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  MR.  RUSH:  36  37  38  THE  COURT:  39  MR.  RUSH:  40  MR.  WILLMS  41  Q  42  43  44  45  46  47  I am showing you notes entitled "The Temlaxam survey  segment".  Were these the notes that were made by  Linda Burnard-Hogarth?  Yes, these were notes in relation to Temlaxam.  And who made the notes?  They are -- they are written by Linda Burnard-Hogarth.  :   All right.  My Lord, Exhibit 849A-6.  Yes.  (EXHIBIT NO. 849A-6 - TAB 6 - NOTES  TEMLEXHAM - SURVEY SEGMENT - L.  BURNARD-HOGARTH)  And just referring to this.  You will see references  to Neil throughout.  It starts off "According to Neil  ..." in the middle of the first paragraph.  "Within  the area several possible village site locations were  identified by Neil."  And then each of the next  paragraphs begins with a reference to Neil.  You know  that that's Neil Sterritt?  Yes.  And in particular over onto the next page under  discussion of survey area in light of ethnographic  information it says:  "The northern and southern boundaries of  Temlaxam as identified by Neil".  That's Neil Sterritt?  Yes.  All right.  So that the -- your investigation in the  area was focused by Neil Sterritt's views of where  Temlaxam were?  No.  My Lord, in fairness, should the witness not be also  directed to the next sentence of that same passage  that was just directed to?  "Ethnographic sources also suggest"?  Yes.  :  Yes, I should read the whole thing, My Lord.  'The northern and southern boundaries of  Temlaxam, as identified by Neil, encompass a  linear distance of over 9 miles.  Ethnographic  sources also suggest that Temlaxam was spread  out over a considerable distance." 10946  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2 That was the basis for your study location where you  3 looked for Temlaxam?  4 A  We are -- the basis for our investigations of the  5 Temlaxam area relied on information gathered from  6 several sources, as noted in the appendix B, and these  7 include field notes by Barbeau, Barbeau materials in  8 Duff's files, Barbeau manuscripts, also Men of Madeek  9 by Walter Wright.  10 Q   They are all referred to in?  11 A   In appendix B.  12 Q   And the document that I handed to you, which has been  13 marked 849-6 —  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And in addition to the ethnographic references, you  16 also had the benefit of Neil Sterritt's views on where  17 Temlaxam was?  18 A   Information from elders that he had -- elders and  19 chiefs that he had talked to.  His information was  20 considered as one part of all of the references that  21 we gathered and located in the literature.  22 Q   Now, you listed your locations starting at page 3-11  23 of your report, and the first location at the top of  24 the page is GhSw - 85a, and you will see or confirm  25 that that document is British Columbia Archaeological  26 Site Inventory form for that site, and then there are  27 some notes as well at the back related to the site.  28 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Mr. Willms, I missed that.  What are you  29 saying?  30 MR. WILLMS:  This is —  31 THE COURT:  What is this?  32 MR. WILLMS:  GhSw 85a, site inventory form.  33 THE REGISTRAR:  Oh, I'm sorry.  34 MR. WILLMS:  35 Q   The first part is the inventory form, and then there  36 are notes and drawings related to GhSw 85a.  37 A   Yes, I think the notes are -- the notes are --  38 probably refer to a variety of things not restricted  39 to -- just to this site.  40 Q   Well, this was pulled consecutively from the material  41 that was disclosed by your counsel last week, so if  42 there is a page here that doesn't relate to GW --  43 GhSw - 85a, could you identify that page please.  44 A   Okay, both -- the last two pages do have notes to this  45 lithic scatter located.  It also has notes related to  46 other areas surveyed, either north or -- north or west  47 on other terraces as well. 10947  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   Now, let's just -- perhaps that could be marked  2 849A-7, My Lord.  3 THE COURT:  Yes.  Are you finished with six?  4 MR. WILLMS:  Yes, My Lord.  5 Q   Just turning to A-27.  6 THE COURT:  A-2 7.  7 MR. WILLMS:  If you look at the bottom of the —  8 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  9 MR. WILLMS:  They have been numbered, and those numbers, My  10 Lord, were put on by my office as the documents came  11 in, to keep it in the order to say where it came in.  12 THE COURT:  Yes.  13 MR. WILLMS:  Related to other documents.  14 Q   If you look at the bottom, there is a reference of  15 Historic Carnaby, the west side of the railroad track,  16 and then the 800 foot terrace, and that 800 foot  17 terrace is the area that's been described as GhSw 85a.  18 A   It's quite a wide bench at the 800 foot level that  19 extends quite a considerable distance along the river.  20 Q   And whose notes are these?  Are these your notes?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And you note a large trench-like depression along the  23 west side of track, possibly sand excavation pit for  24 the railroad?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And then you said it first looked like a larger house  27 pit.  And then "Richard found GTP telegraph  28 insulator."  That's Richard Brolly?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And then you deal with -- at the bottom of the page  31 the small lithic scatter, and this is the scatter that  32 you have identified coming from GhSw 85a?  33 A   Yes, I believe so.  Yes, I think so.  34 THE COURT:  What's the next line?  Says "on road ..." — what's  35 the next?  36 THE WITNESS:   "Leading to clearing west side of track edge of  37 the terrace."  38 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, can you tell me, you are talking here  39 about Historic Carnaby.  Are we on the railroad side  40 of the river here, or are we on the -- wait a minute.  41 I shouldn't put it that way.  Are we on the Carnaby  42 sawmill side of the river, or are we on the -- what I  43 thought was the Temlaxam side of the river?  44 THE WITNESS:   We are within the general study area, Temlaxam  45 study area.  We are on the south side of the river, on  46 the 85-a is on the edge of a new Gitsegeukla reserve  47 on figure 11 of the report. 1094?  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  On the Gitsegeukla side of the river?  THE WITNESS:   Yes.  THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  MR. WILLMS:  Q   The finding of a telegraph insulator close by, did  that help you in assessing the age of the lithic  scatter?  A   No, they are in different contexts and different  cultural materials.  Q   The only different context is they were in different  places.  One was on the road and one was a little  further away.  That's the only difference in context,  isn't it?  A   The Historic Carnaby area is to the north of the -- to  the site -- the lithic scatter recorded.  THE COURT:  May we adjourn for lunch?  MR. WILLMS:  If the witness is finished, yes, My Lord.  THE WITNESS: Yes, I think I am finished.  (EXHIBIT 849A-7 - TAB 7 - ARCHAEOLOGICAL SITE -  GhSw-8 5A - INVENTORY FORM)  THE COURT:  2:00 o'clock please.  THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCHEON RECESS)  I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO  BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT  OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE  BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY.  LORI OXLEY  OFFICIAL REPORTER  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD. 10949  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 10949  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO A LUNCH ADJOURNMENT)  2 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Willms.  4 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, over the break we discussed the hours of  5 sitting and in light of Saturday and thought that if  6 we could sit an extra half hour tonight and an extra  7 half hour in the morning, that it was more than likely  8 that the witness would be finished tomorrow.  9 THE COURT:  All right.  10 MR. WILLMS:  If that's agreeable to the —  11 THE COURT:  Yes.  12 MR. WILLMS:  — to your lordship.  13 THE COURT:  We'll do that then.  14 MR. WILLMS:  15 Q   Before I turn back to Temlaham, my lord, I think I  16 should mark the extract from Tahltan ethnoarchaeology  17 that was put to the witness.  18 And, Ms. Albright, you'll see that this is pages  19 57, 58 and 59 of your work, which includes your  20 discussion of the manufacture of stone dressing tools?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And that -- the photograph that we were discussing  23 that you were giving evidence about is on page 59,  24 correct?  25 A   Yes.  A photograph -- photographs of 59 show types of  26 high dressing stones, tools.  27 MR. WILLMS:  849A-8, my lord.  2 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  29 (EXHIBIT 849A-8:  Tab 8, Extract from Tahltan  30 Ethnoarchaeology)  31 MR. WILLMS:  32 Q   Now, turning back to Temlaham and the exhibit, your  33 report, page 3-11, Gh Sw 85 - B.  And I -- I'm showing  34 you some handwritten notes that appear to be a  35 reference to Gh Sw 85-B.  I couldn't find the  36 heritage conservation report in the materials.  Can  37 you confirm that these pages -- and you'll see they're  38 numbered page 1 of 6 in the upper left-hand corner.  39 There's only five here.  But these are the notes that  40 are referred to in respect of Gh Sw 85 - B?  41 A   Yes.  42 MR. WILLMS:  Exhibit 849A-9, my lord.  43 (EXHIBIT 849A-9:  Tab 9, Handnotes dated June 6, 1985)  44 MR. WILLMS:  45 Q   Whose notes are these?  46 A   These are notes taken with all three of us in the  47 field, Brolly, Ludowicz and myself. 10950  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   Can you turn to the fifth page, at the bottom of the  2 fifth page, which is the last page?  There's a section  3 entitled "Potential".  Is this your handwriting?  4 A   It appears to be Miss Ludowicz.  5 Q   And you'll see that under "Potential" she notes that  6 it's endangered by river erosion, few hundred years  7 left, and then says "Indicative of resource  8 utilization practices, not village orientation ones".  9 What does that mean?  10 A  Well, in the -- the features on the site are  11 indicative of storage of dried food resources, and its  12 location at the river would indicate fishing and  13 processing of fish resources for storage.  14 Q   She then continues:  "Has recent evidence of native  15 use".  Have you noticed that as well at the location?  16 A  At the very mouth of the creek.  So that will be at  17 the south end of the terrace features.  There were  18 artifacts indicating more recent -- more recent use of  19 the creek mouth itself.  20 Q   And so there's a possibility that this cache pit site  21 is historic?  22 A   No, not likely.  23 Q   I didn't say whether it was unlikely.  I asked was  24 there a possibility that it was historic?  25 A   The nature of the features observed at the site, they  26 did not appear to be of recent storage activities  27 indicative of time period for historic -- within the  28 realm of what we might call historic.  29 Q   So your answer is no.  It's not possible that it's  30 historic?  31 A   The characteristics of the features and its location  32 at the edge of an actively eroding bank indicate that  33 this was most likely a prehistoric cache pit area.  34 Q   But it could have been a historic cache pit area,  35 correct?  36 A   Not based on our observations of the site and its  37 context and its characteristics.  38 MR. WILLMS:  The next site identified in your report --  39 THE COURT:  Excuse me a minute.  Can you read the last line?  I  40 can read "This would be a good place to do it".  Then  41 I think it says "Shovel testing had some possible"  42 what?  43 THE WITNESS:  Possible — if I remember the shovel testing at  44 the site, there was an indication that there might  45 be --  4 6    THE COURT:  I'm just wondering what that word says.  47    THE WITNESS:  I can't quite make it out myself. 10951  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Sorry.  MR. WILLMS:  Q   The next is an archaeological site inventory form Gh  Sw 85 - C.  That is the first three pages.  And then  there are pages that follow, which are numbered in the  lower right-hand corner, which also appear related to  this site.  Can you just confirm that all of these  documents relate to this site, Gh Sw 85 - C?  A   This is 85 - C.  THE COURT:  Do you have an extra copy?  Is that an extra copy?  THE WITNESS:  The A-40 does not relate to this site.  MR. WILLMS:  Q   If you look at the description in the middle of page  A-40, it is the description reproduced on the site  inventory form on how to get to the site?  A   Oh, yes.  I think we were counting mileage on the  truck speedometer, the odometer.  But it doesn't  relate directly to the site itself.  A-42, I can  hardly make this out now.  It's an imprint from --  Q   It looks like a -- it looks like the back of the  previous page imprinted over.  You see on page A-42 in  the -- if you turn it sideways, in the upper  right-hand corner you can just see the back of the  letters Gh Sw C?  A   Yes.  It shows a road and a trail, and I --  Q   It looks like the back of A-41, but I don't know.  A   No.  This -- the note on the back does not relate to  the site either.  WILLMS:  Okay.  COURT:  Can someone remind me how you get on the Kispiox to  Kitwanga back highway?  How do you get across the  river?  There's a bridge four miles above the main road into  Old Hazelton.  Just as you go down the hill into Old  Hazelton, there's a cut-off four miles north, crosses  the Kispiox River, and just on the other side of that  bridge the road goes down the river towards Kispiox.  And then --  THE COURT:  Down the Skeena to the confluence of the Bulkley and  then south?  MR. RUSH:  That's right.  And then just as you cross the bridge,  there's a road that cuts up to Terrace and goes along  the Skeena westbound, and that's the old Kitwanga  Road.  It really tracks the river all the way over to  the Highway 37.  THE COURT:  Do you say there's a bridge across the Kispiox?  MR. RUSH:  I'm sorry.  It's Skeena.  MR.  THE  MR. RUSH 10952  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 THE COURT:  Across the Skeena.  Yes.  I'm sorry.  Across the  2 Skeena at Old Hazelton?  3 MR. RUSH:  It's above Old Hazelton about four miles.  4 THE COURT:  All right.  5 MR. WILLMS:  6 Q   All right.  The two pages that you've identified are  7 A-40 and A-42 as not related to Gh Sw 85 - C.  Now,  8 A-43 and A-44 both have the notation on them?  9 A   Yes.  10 MR. WILLMS:  All right.  And, my lord, Exhibit 849A-10.  11 THE COURT:  Yes.  12 (EXHIBIT 849A-10:  Tab 10, Archaeological site  13 inventory form Gh Sw 85 - C)  14 MR. WILLMS:  15 Q   And you'll see from page 2 that this site -- down  16 under owner/tenant, the site is Neil -- it's Neil  17 Sterritt's property?  18 A   I believe it is.  It's on a terrace -- terrace above  19 and back of the farm that he has on the Skeena.  So in  20 terms of the upper terrace, that's also the same  21 terrace we found on site 85 -- Gh Sw 85 - D.  They're  22 on the same terrace level.  And 85- D was on Simms'  23 property.  But there was a fence, so I -- we  24 understood that it was part of the farm that Sterritt  25 has.  26 Q   And you'll see that under -- on page A-38, the second  27 page of the site inventory form under 23, the site age  28 and/or date is unknown?  29 A   In that we did not retrieve -- did not give a more  30 specific date on it.  31 Q   That's because it could be historic?  32 A   Given the context of this little cluster of caches on  33 the terrace that it's on, no.  34 THE COURT:  If Tamlaham was thought to be an ancient village of  35 substantial proportions, would you not expect a rich  36 retrieval of artifacts?  37 THE WITNESS:  In our survey we were looking for possible  38 evidence of house features and -- and, yes, a large  39 concentrations of artifacts.  This particular part of  40 the Skeena, most of the sites that we did find in this  41 area, several of them were up on these raised  42 terraces.  4 3 THE COURT:  Yes.  44 THE WITNESS:  And the river has very actively eroding banks  45 along the lower terraces indicating that river erosion  46 has been quite active.  47 THE COURT:  I'm not intending to be in any way critical of your 10953  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 investigations.  I'm just curious in a general sense  2 whether if Temlaham was the busy centre that some of  3 the evidence I've heard suggests, would it not have  4 been a prime location for intensive archaeological  5 investigation by others before you came along?  6 THE WITNESS:  Others have surveyed the locality and again types  7 are found in the canyon but not on the low lying  8 fluvial terraces.  9 THE COURT:  All right.  10 MR. WILLMS:  11 Q   The next site identified in your report at page 3-12  12 is Gh Sw 85 - D.  These are the obsidian flakes that  13 were found in the Simms' garden?  14 A   Yes.  15 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, Exhibit 849A-11.  16 THE COURT:  Yes.  17 (EXHIBIT 849A-11:  Tab 11, Archaeological site  18 inventory form Gh Sw 85 - D)  19 MR. WILLMS:  20 Q   And you'll see, Ms. Albright, on the second page under  21 23, site age and/or date, that apparently you were  22 unable to date this site?  23 A   No.  No specific date.  24 Q   Possibly historic scatter?  25 A   No.  26 Q   Continuing on in your report at page 3-12, you do say  27 in reference to site Gh Sw 85 - E, at the very bottom  28 of that paragraph, that you found no remains of early  29 occupation and that the features and debris are  30 obviously the remains of the historic community of  31 Seeley?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Now, in the report, then, you turn following that your  34 attention to Hagwilget Canyon.  You're not by doing  35 that suggesting that Hagwilget Canyon was the location  36 of Temlaham, are you?  37 A   I'm not saying that this is Temlaham.  I'm describing  38 the evidence of -- of occupation within the general  39 locality referred to as Temlaham.  40 Q   But just so that we're clear, you're not suggesting  41 that this -- that this investigation that you did in  42 Hagwilget and that Ames did were in an area identified  43 as Temlaham by any of the ethnographic literature?  44 A  Well, they're located within the general locality, and  45 the ethnographic references indicate that -- that --  46 that this was a large population centre which extended  47 for several miles along the river at the confluence of 10954  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 the -- these two major rivers.  2 Q   So you are suggesting that this could be the location  3 of Temlaham from the ethnographic literature?  4 A   There is evidence of occupation in the Temlaham  5 locality as we have defined the study.  6 Q   Which includes this area?  7 A  Which -- yes, which includes several kilometres up the  8 Bulkley, the study area.  9 Q   Just if you turn to page 3-13 of your report, you have  10 identified three or four sites.  The first one is Gh  11 Sv 85 - B, the seven cultural depressions.  I've just  12 put before you a site inventory form with that  13 notation on it.  That relates to Gh Sv 85 - B?  14 A   Yes.  15 MR. WILLMS:  My lord, Exhibit 849A-12.  16 (EXHIBIT 849A-12:  Tab 12, Archaeological site  17 inventory form Gh Sv 85 - B)  18 MR. WILLMS:  19 Q   And you'll see on page 2, Ms. Albright, that the --  20 under item 23, the site age and/or date is listed as  21 unknown?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And that's because it could be prehistoric; it could  24 be historic?  25 A   These are interpreted as of prehistoric occupation.  26 Q   But could be historic?  27 A   There was no indication of historic materials or trade  28 items observed at the site.  29 Q   Or prehistoric materials either?  30 A   The features themselves suggest or indicate features  31 characteristic of the prehistoric pattern of food  32 storage.  33 Q   Which stopped at the time of contact; is that your  34 evidence?  35 A   I believe I earlier stated that I cannot say at what  36 point a particular subsistence practice or traditional  37 practice shifted.  38 Q   Yes.  Exactly.  Now, the next site is Gh Sv 85 - C.  39 And that's the next site down on page 3-13.  This is  40 the site inventory form.  And attached to it -- now,  41 can you confirm that the ones attached to it are for  42 site B and not for site -- not for this site?  43 A  Are you asking if all the pages are relevant to 85-C?  44 Q   Yes.  Is all of it relevant to C?  45 A   No.  I think there's materials for two different sites  46 here.  47 Q   I think if you look at it, you'll see that maybe it's 10955  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 just misdescribed on the paper, because A-4 says  2 Hagwilget site A-4.  Look at the lower right-hand  3 corner.  It says "Hagwilget B" at the top.  But  4 Hagwilget B is only seven cultural depressions, and  5 you can see that if you look at the numbers there  6 there's 27 circles and numbers, which is what you've  7 described as C?  8 A   Yes.  Yes.  It's true.  9 Q   Okay.  And then if you look at A-5 and A-6, they list  10 the 25 depressions?  11 A   Yes.  That's right.  12 Q   So this all relates to what you call Gh Sv 85 - C?  13 A   Yes.  14 MR. WILLMS:  Exhibit 849A - 13, my lord.  15 (EXHIBIT 849A-13:  Tab 13, Archaeological site  16 inventory form Gh Sv 85 - C)  17 THE COURT:  I've lost track of 11.  What was 11, please?  18 MR. WILLMS:  It was Gh Sw 85 - D, a site inventory form with the  19 three —  20 THE REGISTRAR:  Simms' garden.  21 MR. WILLMS:  Simms' garden.  22 THE COURT:  C.  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  23 MR. WILLMS:  24 Q   All right.  Then I'll suggest this one be 849A-13.  My  25 lord, if you look to the second page of the exhibit,  26 you'll see that the owner -- this is on Indian reserve  27 land?  28 A   Yes.  29 THE COURT:  Where does it say that?  30 MR. WILLMS:  Under item 24.  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  32 MR. WILLMS:  33 Q   And you'll see above once again under item 20 the use  34 of the words that these are 27 circular cultural  35 depressions presumptively cache pits?  36 A   Yes.  That was a characteristic term that Mr. Brolly  37 uses to mean interpreted as.  38 Q   Yes.  And you'll see that he -- the site age or date  39 is unknown under item 23?  40 A   Yes.  That's a general -- general reference to  41 prehistoric sites of unknown period in the -- I mean,  42 they could be 3,000 years old or 1,000 years old.  43 Q   Or 100?  44 A  Without testing.  45 MR. WILLMS:  Or 100?  46 THE COURT:  I think Mr. Willms is asking you if it could be 100  47 years old. 10956  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  I hear him.  Given the context and  2 characteristics of the site features, they appear to  3 be aspects of a traditional prehistoric pattern of  4 food storage.  5 MR. WILLMS:  6 Q   Okay.  If you turn to page A-3, the characteristics  7 are set out there.  There's the size.  And then you'll  8 see it says "No other cultural or artifactual  9 materials were observed at this site".  Do you see  10 that?  11 A  We didn't do any subservice testing at this specific  12 cluster of cache pits.  13 Q   Right.  So the only context that you're talking about  14 is that there's 27 holes in the ground of various  15 sizes?  16 A   Characteristic of cache pits of pre-- of a precontact  17 tradition.  18 Q   Which ended at contact; is that what you're saying?  19 Is that your evidence?  20 A   I -- -- for this area I can't say.  I can't give you  21 exactly when storage pits of this type were no longer  22 used.  23 Q   You say --  24 A   I do know that other types of storage features were  25 adopted and used.  26 Q   Like what?  27 A  Above ground, in some cases raised caches for storing  28 foods and other supplies.  29 Q   Like a refrigerator?  30 A   No.  If anything, the cellars were more like  31 refrigerators.  They kept materials cool and dry.  32 Q   All right.  The last set of cache pits are -- the next  33 set is identified by you as Gh Sv 85 - D.  And can you  34 confirm that the three-page archaeological site  35 inventory form that I've just handed to you and the  36 attached four pages relate to this site?  37 A   I'm not sure about the last page.  38 Q   Okay.  Except for the last page, A-14, the rest does  39 relate?  40 A   Yes, it does.  41 Q   Perhaps, my lord, we can just take the last page off.  42 A   Yes.  43 MR. WILLMS:  Mark the balance as 849A-14.  4 4    THE COURT:  Yes.  45 (EXHIBIT 849A-14:  Tab 14, Archaeological site  46 inventory form Gh Sv 85 - D)  47 MR. WILLMS: 10957  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   You'll see once again on page 2 -- is this Mr. Brolly  2 again calling these presumptively cache pits under  3 item 20?  4 A   Yes.  This is Brolly's writing.  5 Q   And he's also the one who says that the date and age  6 is unknown under 23?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Okay.  And you'll note, if we turn to the third page,  9 the last note that he makes is that there were no  10 other artifactual or cultural materials observed at  11 the site.  So this site is, I suggest, likely related  12 to historic use.  Would you agree with me?  13 A   No.  14 Q   The last site on this page is Gh Sv 85 - E.  And I'm  15 showing you a site inventory form.  The first page of  16 the site inventory form is followed by some  17 handwritten pages.  Can you confirm that those  18 handwritten pages that follow relate to Gh Sv 85 - E?  19 A  All but the last page.  20 Q   All but the last page?  21 A   Um-hum.  22 MR. WILLMS:  Perhaps, my lord, we can do the same thing and just  23 take the last page off.  24 THE COURT:  I don't have the document yet.  You're deleting  25 A-19?  26 MR. WILLMS:  Yes, my lord.  And then marking it as 849A-15.  27 (EXHIBIT 849A-15:  Tab 15, Archaeological site  28 inventory form Gh Sv 85 - E)  29 MR. WILLMS:  30 Q   The -- under item 14 on this site form and in fact on  31 all of the site forms that I've just referred you to  32 from Hagwilget Canyon, the cultural affiliation is  33 noted as Tsimshian-Gitksan.  Whose notation was that?  34 A   That refers to the ethno-linguistic people occupying  35 the -- the area as recorded ethnographically.  36 Q   Is that supposed to relate to the cultural feature or  37 is that supposed to relate to who's occupying the area  38 at present?  39 A   The cultural group at -- well, at present and as  40 described ethnographically.  41 Q   Let me put the question this way:  Does that cultural  42 affiliation that's noted in item 14 relate in any way  43 to the features that are described on the site  44 inventory form?  Are they linked?  45 A   The site was found in the area occupied by this  46 cultural group at contact and described in the  47 ethnographic literature. 1095?  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   So that these circular cultural depressions - cache  2 pits, which are identified under paragraph 15, are  3 circular Tsimshian-Gitksan cultural depressions?  Is  4 that how you read this?  5 A   They are interpreted as having been used at some time  6 in the past within the area that is occupied and used  7 by the Gitksan.  8 Q   Is there a difference between a circular  9 Tsimshian-Gitksan cultural depression and a circular  10 Wet'suwet'en cultural depression?  Are there  11 observable differences between the two?  12 A   No.  They're very similar.  But that is a category  13 on -- standard category on the forms to recognize the  14 ethno-linguistic people who occupy the area at point  15 of contact.  16 Q   Now, I just want to go back and ask you about the  17 large surface scatter that you identified at the same  18 location.  And you called that Gh Sv 85 - A?  19 A   Yes.  A large lithic scatter on the north side of the  20 Bulkley.  21 Q   All right.  And this four pages is the British  22 Columbia Archaeological Site Inventory Form for Gh Sv  23 85 - A?  24 A   Yes.  It's a standard form for recording observations.  25 MR. WILLMS:  849A-16, my lord.  26 (EXHIBIT 849A-16:  Archaeological site inventory form  27 Gh Sv 85 - A)  28 MR. WILLMS:  29 Q   You'll see on the first page once again the cultural  30 affiliation is Tsimshian-Gitksan?  31 A   Yes.  This is -- these categories are also filled out  32 according to guide-lines that are produced by the  33 Heritage Conservation Branch.  So these -- these were  34 filled out as a standard form that would eventually --  35 that may be submitted to the -- to the Heritage  36 Conservation Branch and there are guide-lines to go  37 along with the forms.  38 Q   So what you're saying is depending on where the  39 location is, there's a certain cultural affiliation  40 that you must put in?  41 A  When one is requested to identify the  42 ethno-linguistic -- yes, a group occupying the area in  43 which sites are located.  And there is a -- there is a  44 map as well.  45 Q   But you don't fill in something on these forms if your  46 own investigations indicate that it isn't accurate, do  47 you?  You point that out? 10959  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 A   These forms were filled out on the basis of  2 observations made in the field.  They -- and were  3 filled out according to -- according to the  4 guide-lines as well.  5 Q   And they were filled out truthfully to the best of  6 your abilities at the time?  7 A   Yes.  They may have been incomplete or -- in that they  8 were filled out based on field observations and may  9 not have included observations based on further study  10 of the materials.  11 Q   But at the time they were filled out, they were filled  12 out with the intention of at some point presumably  13 forwarding them to the Heritage Conservation Branch;  14 is that right?  15 A   Yes.  If we were to submit forms to the branch, this  16 would be the format that we would submit information  17 in.  18 Q   And when you filled them out, you wanted to be as  19 accurate as you possibly could in filling them out?  20 A  Well, they would definitely be checked over again  21 before they were submitted, so this is again a  22 preliminary draft of a form.  It doesn't --  23 Q   These are first impressions?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And you'll see on page 2 once again the first  26 impression of the site age and date under 23 is  27 unknown?  That was the first impression?  28 A   Unknown period of time during the prehistoric era.  29 Q   I don't see that during the prehistoric era there.  Is  30 that what unknown means when Mr. Brolly uses it?  31 A   Quite often if we know that it's -- that the site  32 relates to historic occupation, then it's usually --  33 usually stated as historic materials are indicative of  34 historic occupation.  And --  35 Q   If you look up to 20, paragraph 20, you'll see the  36 description, and albeit a general description, of a  37 large lithic scatter site with human remains reported  38 and possible cremated human bone fragments.  Now, it's  39 likely that those -- that aspect of it is historic if  40 it's lying on the surface, isn't it?  41 A   No.  42 Q   It could be from a historic grave location?  43 A   No.  44 Q   Over to the next page where 20 is continued, you'll  45 see that it's noted that:  46  47 "The landowner, Louis Parent, has reportedly 10960  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 collected a human skull and adze blades from  2 the approximate vicinity of area Bl."  3  4 Now, pausing on the adze blades, the adze blades are  5 the one that's photographed in the appendix?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And the photograph is plate A-l and A-l is just after  8 A-13.  And Mr. Parent reported he collected that from  9 the same area he collected a human skull?  10 A   Yes.  On the south side of -- be south, south side of  11 area B.  12 Q   And is it your experience as an archaeologist that  13 exposed bones deteriorate?  That is bones that are  14 exposed to the elements deteriorate over time?  15 A  Well, he found these from plowing the field.  16 Q   Yes.  17 A  Which had been brought to the surface.  18 Q   Is it your experience that buried skulls deteriorate  19 over time?  20 A   Depending on the depositional context.  21 Q   This whole area is --  22 A   Burial remains can be preserved several thousand  23 years.  24 Q   For example, in a mitten deposit, if there's something  25 extra there to help preserve it?  26 A   Dry environments are very conducive for -- for  27 preservation.  28 MR. WILLMS:  Well, how about —  2 9    THE COURT:  30 A  And again there might be burial preservation of bone  31 or parts.  32 Q   Isn't the soil in this particular area less conducive  33 to the preservation of faunal material than, for  34 example, some soils down near the coast?  35 A   The Moricetown excavations we had very poor  36 preservation of bone materials.  37 Q   That's pretty —  38 A   The materials in the context of almost 6,000 years.  39 Q   But poor bone preservation is pretty typical of this  40 area, isn't it?  41 A  Well, each site -- each site will vary.  At the  42 Hagwilget Canyon site excavated by Ames, there was  43 bone material preserved from the early zone.  44 Q   The presence of human bones and a human skull could  45 indicate historic attachment?  46 A  Well, I couldn't say when that particular individual  47 was buried since I have not looked at that skull.  And 10961  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 I'm not sure what Mr. Parent did with the material,  2 whether he reburied it or whether he reported it to  3 the police.  But that does not -- I mean, the human  4 remains did not -- whether he found them or not did  5 not influence interpretations of the -- the other  6 material at the site.  7 Q   Well, wouldn't it mean something if you, for example,  8 found this ground and polished grooved adze  9 immediately adjacent to a human skeleton buried 50  10 years ago?  Is that archaeologically significant?  11 A  Well, I didn't say that it was buried 50 years ago.  12 Q   Well —  13 A   I said I don't know.  It could be -- it could be 2,000  14 years old.  I don't know.  And I'm not -- I'm not  15 indicating anywhere that I know anything about this  16 burial except Mr. Parent reported it and we have noted  17 that in its preliminary form.  But that -- that burial  18 has nothing to do with our interpretation and  19 understanding of the other materials from the site.  2 0 Q   That's why —  21 A   There were also other tools there that were -- that  22 were identified and studied and compared with other  23 site context, and I have given an opinion on -- on the  24 site based on my study of the materials that we did  25 observe.  26 THE COURT:  But you did observe a concentration of burned bone  27 fragments, did you not?  28 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  And they appeared to be mammal bones.  They  29 were scattered across the site and specifically in  30 locations of scorched earth and ash deposits.  31 THE COURT:  Couldn't they have been dated?  32 THE WITNESS:  We didn't get large -- large enough samples from  33 any one location, and it's not appropriate to gather  34 materials from all over the site to try to date it.  35 It wouldn't be a good sample.  If we found a piece --  36 piece large enough, then perhaps we could have got an  37 age determination.  But again there's another factor  38 of finding them on the surface now.  They may be  39 affected by recent air and contact with grass or  40 crops.  So again they would not be good samples if  41 they were found on the surface for dating.  42 THE COURT:  Shall we take the afternoon adjournment, Mr. Willms?  43 MR. WILLMS:  Yes, my lord.  44 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court is in recess.  45  4 6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  47 10962  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  9  10 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  11 a true and accurate transcript of the  12 proceedings transcribed to the best  13 of my skill and ability.  14  15  16  17 Kathie Tanaka, Official Reporter  18 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 10963  S.L. Albright (for plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 10963  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECOMMENCED AFTER SHORT RECESS)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  I find, unfortunately, that I am committed to  5 something at 9:30 tomorrow morning.  Could we start at  6 1:30 tomorrow afternoon instead?  7 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  8 MR. WILLMS:  Yes, My Lord.  9 THE COURT:  Thank you.  10 MR. WILLMS:  11 Q   Ms. Albright, could you turn to figure 11 in your  12 report, which is after page 3-10, and it's the figure  13 outlining the study area and previous archaeological  14 sites in the area.  And if you start in the upper  15 right-hand corner with Hagwilget GhSv-2 on figure 11,  16 that is the Ames excavation, correct?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   Then the next site, GhSv-3, that site was identified  19 by Ames as a recently abandoned location, fishing  20 location?  21 A  As a fishing -- a fishing site with evidence of house  22 structures.  23 Q   Recent?  24 A  Well, he interpreted it as being recently abandoned.  25 I don't know on what basis he made that conclusion.  26 Q   Yes.  And then the next site GhSv-1 is -- and it might  27 help me if I show you the Heritage Conservation Branch  28 form.  You just confirm for me that the item at the  29 top called document 326 is GhSv-1.  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   All right.  And the type that is identified there is  32 consistent with either historic or prehistoric  33 remains.  That could be either.  34 A   It -- there were sub-surface deposits at the site  35 indicating prehistoric occupation.  36 Q   So if it's below the surface it's prehistoric; is that  37 your assumption?  38 A   Generally, yes.  39 Q   And if it's on the surface it's historic?  40 A   Not necessarily, depending on the materials or  41 characteristics of the feature in the site.  42 MR. WILLMS:   Might this be 849A-17, My Lord.  43 THE REGISTRAR:  849A-17.  44  45 (EXHIBIT NO. 849A-17 - PRINTOUT FROM HERITAGE  46 CONSERVATION FILE)  47 10964  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  6  7  Q  8  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  Q  25  A  26  MR. WILLMS  27  28  29  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  44  45  46  Q  47  Now, continuing on, the next site location shown on  the map is GhSw 3. And that's the historic trading  post at Fort Stager?  I remember it being recorded as a historic post.  I'm  not sure about the name.  That was recorded right  downtown Old Hazelton.  And finally the other archaeological location at the  lowest part of the diagram, which is this figure, is  GgSw-1, and I am showing you the computer printout.  Can you confirm that document 290 is GgSw-1?  It's  document 290, GgSw-1, and that's the one you show in  figure 11 on the lower left-hand corner.  From the numbers appear to refer to the same site,  although --  The description here on the printout doesn't indicate  whether it's historic or prehistoric, cultural  material, surface, isolated.  Isolated finds usually refer to isolated tools,  prehistoric stone tools.  But you don't know that?  Well, that's a general term used by archaeologists in  the province to refer to isolated, meaning isolated  stone, prehistoric stone tools.  Like the scraper that Ames found?  That was an isolated find, yes.  Yes.  84 9A-18, My Lord.  (EXHIBIT NO. 849A-18 - PRINTOUT ROM HERITAGE  CONSERVATION FILE)  The site was on -- this document does not appear to be  complete or have been updated.  The reporter date says  1969, and that site was -- if it refers to the same  site, that site has subsequently been examined also by  Acheson, I believe, in 1977, and he investigated the  site in relationship to a proposed river crossing  there, and investigated the site and recorded  microblades from that site.  All right.  I'm sorry, but I think you said earlier in  your evidence that microblades indicates something to  you.  Microblades are usually obsidian or quartz --  They can be made of a variety of materials.  We have  recovered from GhSv-85-a microblades of obsidian and  quartz crystal, but they can be made out of a variety  of material.  And you said earlier that microblades mean something,  there are some dates attributed to microblade 10965  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 technology?  2 A   Yes.  They are -- a tool technology which has been  3 dated at Kitselas Canyon from 5,000 to 4,300 years  4 ago, in the Stikine area date associated 4,900 years  5 ago, and are characteristic of early -- an early  6 technology in -- on the coast as well as further north  7 of the interior, Yukon and Alaska.  8 Q   Now, just referring to map 11, figure 11.  Except for  9 Hagwilget Canyon, GhSv-2, none of the other  10 archaeological sites have been expressly listed in the  11 Heritage Branch forms as prehistoric, have they?  12 A  Well, we just discussed the evidence of microblades at  13 GgSw-1 in the Gitsegeukla area recorded by Acheson,  14 and GhSv-1, 2 and 3 are referred to as prehistoric --  15 sites with prehistoric occupation.  16 Q   Well, I just put the documents from the Heritage  17 Conservation Branch printout, which I understood was  18 the basis for Linda Burnard-Hogarth's list, and it  19 doesn't say prehistoric in any of those.  That's an  20 interpretation that you've made after reading what's  21 listed.  22 A  Well, there is a standard format for referring to  23 prehistoric sites, and the description of the  24 features, if they are not prehistoric, then it's  25 indicated that it's historic materials being  26 discussed.  27 Q   And if the investigator can't tell whether it's  28 historic or prehistoric, he just says cultural  29 remains, right?  30 A   The -- the guidelines for completing standard forms  31 generally refer cache pits as cultural depressions,  32 cache pits, so there's a -- archaeologists in  33 completing the forms acknowledge that the terminology  34 refers to prehistoric sites, unless otherwise  35 indicated.  36 Q   That is an acknowledged and accepted practise in  37 reviewing Heritage Branch Conservation materials, that  38 if it's not listed it's historic, then it has to be  39 prehistoric; is that what you're saying?  40 A   It's the general use of the terminology, yes.  41 Q   Now, not just used by you, but it's the general use of  42 archaeologists in this province, that when they see  43 one of these computer printouts and there is no  44 reference to historic, that the reference is to  45 prehistoric; is that what you're saying?  46 A   For the most part, yes.  At one point we had two  47 separate -- the Heritage Conservation Branch 10966  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 maintained two separate files, archaeological sites  2 and historic sites, and it's only recently that the  3 historic sites and archaeological sites are kept  4 within the same files.  5 Q   What notation, then, would tell you that the  6 investigator didn't know how old it was, didn't know  7 whether it was prehistoric or historic, and if it's  8 presumed prehistoric, if historic isn't mentioned?  9 A  Well, usually the unknown refers to an unknown period  10 of time within the traditional aboriginal occupation  11 of the area.  12 Q   And that —  13 A  Acknowledge that archaeological materials, for the  14 most part archaeology in British Columbia deals with  15 the study of material culture and the development of  16 cultural of aboriginal people in this area.  17 Q   But archaeological sites throughout the province and  18 especially on the Heritage Conservation Branch forms  19 includes historic and prehistoric and locations that  20 haven't been dated?  21 A   The sites with historic materials are generally very  22 clearly indicated that these are historic materials,  23 historic cabins, standing structures, you know, recent  24 materials, or would indicate if there are trade  25 materials, European trade materials present.  26 Q   And so if that isn't listed, you presume that it's  27 prehistoric when you read the document?  28 A   Yes.  2 9 Q   All right.  30 A   I think the categories that we use in completing the  31 forms, the terminology.  32 Q   I would like to turn in your report to Gitangasx, and  33 that starts at page 3-15, and you start discussing the  34 three areas of location on 3-16.  And first of all, if  35 you can identify these -- there is handwritten notes  36 with Gitangasx on the first page.  Are these the notes  37 by Linda Burnard-Hogarth respecting the ethnographic  38 literature on Gitangasx?  39 A   Yes.  40 MR. WILLMS   All right.  849A-19, My Lord.  41 THE COURT:  Yes.  42  43 (EXHIBIT NO. 849A-19 - NOTES BY LINDA  4 4 BURNARD-HOGARTH)  45  46 MR. WILLMS:  47 Q   And you will see that from the ethnographic 10967  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 literature, which is discussed generally on the first  2 page, that it refers after that dash partway down to a  3 number of wild rice clan houses, and lists some names,  4 are of Tsetseat origin, T-s-e-t-s-e-a-t, that was from  5 the ethnographic literature.  6 A   I believe, yes, Barbeau mentions the Tsetseat origin.  7 Q   And that many of their crests are --  8 A   Tsetseat area.  9 Q   Many of their crests are indicative of their Athapaska  10 roots?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Now, the first site that you identified on page 3-16  13 is called HbSv-85A, and I am showing you two pages  14 from the site inventory form.  These are the -- this  15 is the site inventory form related to HbSv-85A?  16 A   Yes.  17 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, where are you in the report, Mr. --  18 MR. WILLMS:  I am at page 3-16, My Lord.  If you go under the  19 1985 field investigations.  2 0 THE COURT:  Yes.  21 MR. WILLMS:  You will see the second paragraph:  "Three sites  22 were noted".  This is the first one.  2 3 THE COURT:  Yes.  24 MR. WILLMS:  And Exhibit 84A-20, My Lord.  25 THE COURT:  Did you mark 19?  26 THE REGISTRAR:  Yes, that's the notes.  27 THE COURT:  That's the notes.  Yes.  That's 19, so this will be  2 8 2 0 then.  29  30 (EXHIBIT NO. 20 - TAB 20 - ARCHAEOLOGICAL SITE  31 INVENTORY FORM HbSv-8 5A)  32  33 MR. WILLMS:  34 Q   You will see this is once again made by Mr. Brolly?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And he notes under item 20 to what was found at this  37 location.  You see in paragraph 20 the last line is:  38  39 "No cultural materials except for the top of a  40 solder-top meat can (i.e. pre-1916) from CA 30  41 ..."  42  43 Does that mean from 30 centimeters below surface?  44 A   Yes, it would indicate the Circa 30 below surface.  45 Q   30 centimeters below the surface in test unit two?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   All right.  And you will see that he, once again, his 1096?  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  THE  MR.  first impression was that the site age or date was  unknown?  Yes.  But, of course, when you refer to the fact that you  found a solder-top meat can 30 centimeters below the  surface in one of the test units and no other cultural  materials, that leads you to the conclusion that it's  probably historic?  The tin can lid is historic.  And also the cultural feature?  The lenses at the site were not dated, so it's not  possible to say exactly when these events occurred.  But there were in some areas two fine lenses, and one,  I believe, between 45 and 50 centimeters below  surface.  But doesn't the fact that the only artifact excavated  from the whole site was a historic solder-top meat can  indicate that it's likely that the site has been used  historically?  Oh, there is no doubt about that.  But I am also  suggesting -- there is also an indication that this  was -- that this site was used periodically over a  period of time, and was likely used in pre-contact  times as well.  Well, you would have to date the carbon, wouldn't you,  to know that?  Yes.  Yes.  Now, the next location that you discussed at  Gitangasx is called --  I'm sorry, before you go to that, I gather from this  site inventory plan that you -- no, I'm sorry, I don't  think I gathered from that, but from your report you  say a series of 21 test units were excavated?  Yes.  And nothing was found?  Yes, we found these --  I'm sorry, except for --  These very thin carbon stained lenses appearing  across the site, which --  COURT:  Are these 21 test units, are they covered by this  document --  WITNESS:   No, there was only two pages of the notes.  There  was a field map which shows the originals and was the  basis for drawing figure 20 in the report.  WILLMS:  Q   I couldn't find anything else, so that's --  A   There were field notes with the field map, the Xeroxed  A  Q  THE COURT  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS  COURT:  WITNESS 10969  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 copies are photos -- or the photo for this area, and  2 also notes on the test pits --  3 THE COURT:  This figure —  4 THE WITNESS:  The figure for the site is back —  5 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, where in 85A?  I'm sorry, just looking  6 ahead to see Figure 21 is the same thing, but it's  7 something different.  8 THE WITNESS:   Yes, the figure for this particular site is in my  9 copy three pages back.  The maps were put in somewhat  10 out of order.  11 THE COURT:  What's the figure number?  12 THE WITNESS:  20.  13 THE COURT:  20.  Thank you.  Those are your 21 test —  14 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  15 MR. WILLMS:  16 Q   Test units?  17 A  And in some cases there was an A and a B.  18 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  19 MR. WILLMS:  20 Q   Then you found that cultural staining in those test  21 pits, correct?  22 A   Yes.  The carbon stained lense.  23 Q   And the one solder-top can lid?  24 A   Yes, that was the only --  25 THE COURT:  And it was found in one of these test units, was it?  26 THE WITNESS:   Yes, it was, sir.  So informants indicated the  27 site had been used over a period of time, and also  28 fishing in that area in more recent times.  It appears  29 to have been a site used periodically from pre-contact  30 into recent times, that site locality.  31 MR. WILLMS:  32 Q   The next is B, identified as HdSv-85B, and I have just  33 handed you three pages.  These are the -- this is the  34 form relating to that site?  35 A   Yes.  36 MR. WILLMS:   My Lord, Exhibit 849A-21.  37  38 (EXHIBIT 849A-21 - ARCHAEOLOGICAL SITE  3 9 INVENTORY FORM - HbSv-8 5B)  40  41 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, but I am not keeping up with you people  42 there.  Where is this dealt with in your report?  43 MR. WILLMS:  This is dealt with -- sorry, it's over onto page  44 3-17, My Lord.  Carrying on -- the middle second  45 paragraph, "two groups of cache pits were located".  46 THE COURT:  All right.  HbSv-85.  Thank you.  47 MR. WILLMS: 10970  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Q   And this is that HbSv-85B, Ms. Albright?  2 A   Yes, it is.  3 MR. WILLMS:   849A-21, My Lord.  4 THE COURT:  Yes.  5 MR. WILLMS:  6 Q   The first two pages were filled out by Mr. Brolly?  7 A   Yes, that's his writing.  8 Q   And you have got usual site date unknown filled in by  9 him on paragraph 23.  Whose writing is the last page?  10 A   That's Ms. Ludovicz.  11 Q   Just coming back -- and this is still at page 3-17 of  12 your report.  You say at the top -- you talk about  13 ethnographic literature indicating that the Gitksan  14 practised controlled burning of root and berry  15 gathering sites.  Was your source for this control  16 burning Neil Sterritt?  17 A  Well, he pointed out this site to us, when we went in  18 a helicopter, as being the area referred to as Gap  19 Gasx.  In terms of burning of root and berry gathering  20 sites, there is other literature on that.  21 Q   I am just wondering if that's something that Neil  22 Sterritt told you.  23 A   I believe -- notes somewhere in Barbeau, I believe,  24 Turner, and there are other references to controlled  25 burning in other areas as well.  26 Q   Just showing you some pages of typed notes, and start  27 with S. Albright at the top.  Go on for 4 pages, and  28 it says:  29  30 "Notes made on trip from Hazelton to Kisgegas  31 July 7th, 1985 with Neil Sterritt."  32  33 Did you make these notes?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And this trip on July 7, 1985 was made prior to your  36 investigations at Gitangasx.  If you look at the  37 archaeological records, you will see that your  38 Gitangasx records are July 16th and July 15th.  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And I won't go through this in detail right now, but  41 you will see on the second page of these notes from  42 July 7th, 1985 down four paragraphs there is a  43 description in the 4th paragraph on page 2:  44  45 "On the large flat on the north side of  46 Sediesh Creek ..."  47 S-e-d-i-e-s-h Creek. 10971  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2 "... there was a large berry camp.  Neil saw a  3 bent box for gathering berries into - up on  4 the mountain to the east, while out on his  5 horse.  Cleared flats and berry grounds were  6 deliberately burned to control vegetation."  7  8 Is that something that Neil Sterritt told you on  9 this trip?  10 A   Yes, he remembers when these particular flats were  11 burnt when he was a young boy.  12 MR. WILLMS:   My Lord, 849A-22.  13 THE COURT:  Yes.  14  15 (EXHIBIT NO. 849A-22 - TYPED NOTES BY MS.  16 ALBRIGHT - JULY 7, 1985)  17  18 Q   And I am now just going to complete page 3-17 of your  19 report.  Your last reference at Gitangasx is HbSv-85C  20 I would ask you to confirm that the two pages here  21 refer to that location.  22 A   Yes.  23 MR. WILLMS:   849A-23, My Lord.  24  25 (EXHIBIT NO. 849A-23 - TAB 23 - ARCHAEOLOGICAL  26 SITE INVENTORY FORM HbSv-85C)  27  28 Q   Now, in this particular location you don't have a map  29 in your report showing previous archaeological sites  30 for Gitangasx?  31 A   For the study area, no.  32 Q   All right.  And when you consider the fact that the  33 only artifact excavated in any of the sites was a tin  34 can lid, and that Neil Sterritt had described to you  35 historic clearing practises for lands --  36 A  Well, these are traditional practises that have been  37 continued into more recent times.  38 Q   Well, Mr. Sterritt described to you an instance that  39 he had observed.  40 A   Or he remembered being told.  I'm not sure which.  All  41 I have in my notes is that he told me that it was --  42 it was a flat that had been burned, and I -- whether  43 he was told or whether he saw it, I don't know about  44 that.  45 Q   But when you had that information from Mr. Sterritt,  46 the tin can lid and no other artifacts whatsoever, you  47 concluded that it was likely that these three areas 10972  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 were historic?  2 A   No.  3 Q   The next ancestral location discussed in your report  4 is Kisgegas.  And I am showing you something entitled  5 appendix A5, reference to village sites in the  6 Kisgegas area.  Whose writing is that?  7 A   These notes were made by -- written by Linda  8 Burnard-Hogarth.  9 Q   All right.  And -- so that's the background -- the  10 ethnographic background material you had with respect  11 to Kisgegas?  12 A   These are references listed in the appendix, the  13 appendix B of the report.  14 MR. WILLMS:   849A-24, My Lord.  15 THE COURT:  Sorry, you say 24?  16 MR. WILLMS:  Yes, My Lord.  17 THE COURT:  Thank you.  18  19 (EXHIBIT NO. 849A-24 - TAB 24 - APPENDIX A-5  2 0 REFERENCE TO VILLAGE SITES - HANDNOTES)  21  22 THE COURT:  I missed 23.  Let me see.  23 THE REGISTRAR:  Archaeological Inventory Form.  24 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  Thank you.  25 MR. WILLMS:  26 Q   I wonder if 849A-22 could be put back before -- in  27 front of the witness.  This trip to Kisgegas was made  28 with Neil Sterritt and Hugh Brodie?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And during -- do you remember -- how did you travel  31 up, by road, by car?  32 A   By road, yes.  33 Q   Yes.  And on the way up, and these notes that you have  34 made here contain some observations that you made and  35 some notes that you made on what Neil Sterritt was  36 telling you on the way up?  37 A   Yes, different places that he knew of along the way.  38 Q   Then, I think, you get to Kisgegas on page three, and  39 you will see on page three the fourth paragraph down  40 that Neil pointed out the location of large ancient  41 village of Anlagasamdek, south side of the Babine.  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   That's the -- if you just look at your report at page  44 3-18 on Kisgegas over the next page, you got the  45 Kisgegas study area?  46 A  Are you referring to the map?  47 Q   The map, yes, Figure 23. 10973  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  Q  15  16  A  17  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  A  36  37  38  Q  39  40  41  A  42  MR. WILLMS  43  44  45  46  47  Q  Yes.  And on that figure, that's -- there is no  archaeological site there.  It's just a star beside  it, between GkSv-1 and GkSv-2 near the dotted line.  Yes.  That was pointed out by Neil Sterritt?  These locations -- along with the notes Ms.  Burnard-Hogarth also prepared a map based on the  reading of the literature and the locations given for  each village.  So our understanding of village  locations had been plotted prior to this trip, so that  if we had the opportunity that we might further  investigate some of these locations.  The location on the map that you investigated is over  on the right-hand side, 85-A?  That was the newly recorded site area noted and  observed in 1985.  And if you turn to page 4 of your notes, Exhibit  849A-22, it goes to the last paragraph, the last large  paragraph.  Which?  Notes from the trip?  From the trip.  Yes.  You will see at the bottom it says:  "Neil showed us the large cache pit area, one  mile above Kisgegas village.  On the way back  to the truck we discovered two large house  depressions just a little northwest of the  concentration of cache pits."  So this area, this study area that you looked at,  were you taken to that study area and it was pointed  out to you by Neil Sterritt?  In that area he pointed out village locations and  features that he had seen on previous visits to the  area.  And I am showing you the site record form for  GkSv-85A.  These three pages are the record form for  this site at Kisgegas?  Kisgegas, yes.  :   8 4 9A-2 5, My Lord.  (EXHIBIT NO. 849A-25 - TAB 25 - ARCHAEOLOGICAL  SITE INVENTORY FORM - GkSv-85A)  You will see on the second page that this one -- this 10974  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 was filled out by Mr. Brolly?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And he dated the site at greater than 200 years based  4 on the large Sitka spruce?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And this was the same spruce that you originally dated  7 in your report at 350 years, and I think you said in  8 your evidence you changed that to 150?  9 A   Yes, I remember we had some discussion about the  10 spruce tree.  11 Q   And then finally on the last page of this you will see  12 it's noted at the bottom that:  13  14 "No radiocarbon or other cultural materials  15 were collected or observed."  16  17 Correct?  And there you have the 235 cultural  18 depressions?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   And there is cobbles and boulders, but no charcoal.  21 So the only cultural features were the depressions?  22 A   The cobbles and boulders were an aspect of a hearth  23 feature that also contained ash and, I believe, bits  24 of charcoal were observed.  I think that Brolly was  25 hasty in this remark.  I believe the field notes do  26 indicate bits of charcoal, as well as the ash in the  27 hearth area.  28 Q   So when Mr. Brolly —  29 A  And the reference to the compacted silty clay layer,  30 which is interpreted as a living floor.  31 Q   When Mr. Brolly notes that -- and I am on the last  32 page of this form under 20, continued midway down:  33  34 "A more or less linear arrangement of cobbles  35 and boulders may represent the top of an  36 elongated hearth pit, though no charcoal  37 concentrations were observed here."  38  39 Your evidence today is that he made a mistake?  40 A  Well, he's indicating that he says no radiocarbon  41 materials were collected.  There were no chunks of  42 charcoal that were -- that were large enough or  43 suitable for submitting for radiocarbon dating, but  44 the notes definitely refer to bits of charcoal.  45 Q   Yes.  And he says, carrying on --  46 A   Carbon staining.  47 Q   Its been interpreted as ash scatter, and that it may 10975  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 be a living floor.  Carrying on.  2 A   That's what he has written.  And this is our -- again  3 our preliminary description of the site on the form.  4 The form has not been submitted.  5 Q   In fact there was a question in your minds, was there  6 not, about whether or not these cache pits were  7 prehistoric?  8 A   No.  9 Q   I am showing you, and the notes are lengthy, so I just  10 reproduced the first page.  Can you identify the  11 writing on this document.  It's dated July 8, 1985.  12 Is this your writing?  13 A   This is Ms. Ludovicz.  14 Q   Ms. Ludovicz.  And you will see that her very first  15 line says:  16  17 "Kisgegas prehistoric (?) cultural  18 depressions"  19  20 I suggest again that there was a question initially  21 as to whether or not these cultural depressions were  22 prehistoric.  23 A   No, the question mark may refer to the name that we  24 have given them on the site floor.  I put Kisgegas P  25 as Kisgegas prehistoric area.  So prehistoric site in  26 the Kisgegas study area, and so there was some  27 question, what are we going to call this site.  28 Q   Could you explain that again?  2 9 A  Well, you have probably -- I don't know what you want  30 me to explain.  31 Q   Are you saying that the question mark was you were  32 wondering whether to call it Kisgegas prehistoric  33 rather than using the site locator names using Borden  34 indicators like you used for everything else?  That's  35 what the question was about.  36 A   The Borden indicator was put on form after we got back  37 to the lab, but in the field we often used a locality  38 name, such as two mile or four mile or Kisgegas P or  39 Gitangasx A, B, C.  40 Q   You have used A, B, C for every other location,  41 haven't you?  You haven't used P, Q, R, U, V, W.  42 A  Well, I have referred to this as GkSv-85A.  43 Q   Yes.  So the prehistoric -- I mean, there is really no  44 question, is there, that the question mark was because  45 you didn't know whether or not these depressions were  46 prehistoric.  That's why that question mark is there.  47 MR. RUSH:  I would like to suggest -- excuse me.  I would just 10976  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 like to interject at this point.  I think it is  2 important that my friend show the witness the other  3 pages of the notes and the caps that are used in the  4 other pages as headings.  5 MR. WILLMS:  6 Q   Can you look through those pages.  7 A   They all have prehistoric on them, which is our  8 understanding of them when we located them.  9 Q   And is there a question mark on any of the other pages  10 behind prehistoric?  11 A   No, there was no question.  12 Q   So just so that we are clear, that question mark  13 relates to a debate that you had about whether to call  14 it Kisgegas prehistoric or not, not to whether or not  15 they were prehistoric?  16 A   This first set of notes starting with the compass and  17 mapping of the site -- the maps at the back.  18 MR. WILLMS:  Perhaps we could mark the first page as 849A-26, My  19 Lord.  20  21 (EXHIBIT N0.849A-26 - TAB 26 - HANDNOTES -  22 JULY 8, 1985)  23  24 Q   Now, the map that you made, which is figure 23,  25 contains four --  26 A   So this whole document has been presented.  27 Q   No, just the first page.  My friend asked that you be  28 allowed to look at the whole thing, that might assist  29 you in answering whether the question mark was related  30 to naming the site Kisgegas prehistoric, or whether it  31 was a question about whether the depressions were  32 prehistoric.  My understanding is your answer was that  33 the question mark relates to naming the site and not  34 to whether or not the depressions were prehistoric.  35 A   Yes, it's very clear in our minds that the site is  36 prehistoric.  37 Q   Yes.  Now, turning to the map at figure 3, and I have  38 got -- figure 23.  You have identified four  39 archaeological sites, and these site forms were in the  40 documents produced by your counsel.  And you will see,  41 starting from the left, and I put them in the order  42 that they came, but I will deal with them in the order  43 that they are on the map.  The very last page of these  44 four documents, which has a D-9 in the lower  45 right-hand corner, is site GkSw-1, and this site was  46 described as the first location -- this is under the  47 site name "Kisgegas Band 1st location."  Do you see 10977  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1  2  A  3  THE  COURT:  4  MR.  WILLMS  5  6  7  THE  COURT:  8  MR.  WILLMS  9  THE  COURT:  10  MR.  WILLMS  11  THE  COURT:  12  MR.  RUSH:  13  14  15  16  MR.  WILLMS  17  THE  COURT:  18  MR.  RUSH:  19  20  THE  COURT:  21  22  MR.  WILLMS  23  Q  24  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  46  Q  47  that?  Yes.  I'm sorry, where is that?  :  It's just beside the "2", My Lord.  There is a site  name, which I didn't repeat, and then in brackets  after that it says "(Kisgegas Band, 1st)".  Which one are we looking at?  :  GkSw-1.  Yes.  :  If you come down to the paragraph numbered 2.  Oh, yes, I see that.  I think the name should be -- since Kisgegas 1st  location is a parenthetic expression of the Gitksan  name, apparently Gitksan name, I think we should have  that identified for the record.  :  Well, it's in the record.  I am going to mark it.  I am not sure I follow you, Mr. Rush.  Well, just that the site name is Panlegesm, and in  parenthesis it says "(Kisgegas Band - 1st location)".  Well, if the document is going in, it will all be  apparent.  Now, from a review, and you will see that under  paragraph 22, Ms. Albright, historically, this is the  territory of the Kisgegas Indians?  Yes.  Do you see anywhere in this report indicating that the  site is prehistoric?  The depth of deposit.  The two feet question mark?  Yes, two feet of buried depth.  Fire cracked rock  (charcoal and ash) observed at the site, salmon cache  pits, and this was also a time when only  archaeological sites or prehistoric sites were being  put into the archaeological site records, into the  files.  So all of that tells you that it's prehistoric and is  not historic?  Yes, it's a prehistoric site that is being observed  and is recorded by means of this form.  When you got this, didn't it seem clear that this  would be the likely place to look for the ancient  homeland?  This was one site noted for the area, and I plotted  it.  Well, under two on this site it said: 1097?  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 "Said by informant to be first village on  2 Babine of Kisgegas people."  3  4 And you have noted that you saw from the form that  5 it was prehistoric?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Wasn't this a likely location to look for the  8 ancestral village?  9 A   There are indications in the ethnographic literature  10 that there is early occupation in the Kisgegas area.  11 Q   So why didn't you look around here?  Why did you just  12 go to where Neil Sterritt took you?  13 A   The site is already recorded.  Three days in the area,  14 which is not a lot of time, and there was a lot more  15 work that I would have liked to have done in that  16 area.  Given the -- given the extent of the number of  17 the cache pits and the two house depressions, I,  18 having not been recorded previously, I felt it was  19 important to investigate these, to record these.  20 Q   Well, on figure 23 you have two stars which you  21 identify in the legend as traditional village  22 locations.  One of the stars was a place pointed out  23 to you in passing by Neil Sterritt --  24 A  Well, these are first identified through our review of  25 the literature, and references that are in appendix B  26 for the Kisgegas area and a map was drawn with these  27 named places.  28 Q   You see, right underneath JkSw-1 you have got a star  29 for a traditional village location.  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Now, instead of excavating there or investigated  32 there, why did you go all the way over to the area  33 that Mr. Sterritt pointed out?  Why didn't you look in  34 the traditional village location for evidence of the  35 ancestral village?  36 A   There is already evidence recorded for a -- reportedly  37 early occupation of the Kisgegas area.  38 Q   And it was good enough.  39 THE COURT:  I'm not clear, Mr. Willms, whether the witness even  40 knew about this document or this location until it was  41 pointed out to her by Mr. Sterritt on the trip.  I  42 don't know what the answer to that is.  4 3    MR. WILLMS:  Knew which one?  44 THE COURT:  Whether when she was going up there and she passed  45 the site and Mr. Sterritt pointed out to her, I don't  46 know if she knew that it had been reported by Mr.  47 MacDonald as the first village on the Babine of the 10979  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 Kisgegas people.  Did you know that?  2 THE WITNESS:  I knew from our ethnographic literature that there  3 were several villages recorded, and they are plotted  4 according to the reading of the literature, and they  5 also had references to archaeological sites recorded  6 in the area.  7 THE COURT:  All right.  8 THE WITNESS:  So in terms of looking, we started some mapping in  9 Kisgegas village itself, what is referred to as the  10 most -- Kisgegas village on the north side of the  11 river, and --  12 THE COURT:  By the bridge?  13 THE WITNESS:  Yes, just north of the bridge, and started some  14 mapping there, and also noted prehistoric materials,  15 as recorded by George MacDonald's field party, and  16 decided to -- decided that the cache pit area was an  17 interesting area to investigate.  18 MR. WILLMS:  19 Q   You had Linda Burnard-Hogarth's review of the previous  20 archaeological investigations in the area, didn't you,  21 before you embarked on your own field investigations?  22 Linda Burnard-Hogarth had already done her review.  23 A  We were familiar with the previous work, yes.  24 Q   Now, the next -- and I would like to, My Lord, just  25 complete this with relation to figure 23.  The next  26 site over from GkSw-1 is GkSv-1.  It's the first page  27 of the four that I have given to you.  And you will  28 see under the site name again its got Kisgegas Band  29 after the site name of Panlegesm, P-A-N-L-E-G-E-S-M.  30 Kisgegas Band - 2nd location.  And there is a notation  31 over on paragraph 23 that totem poles were observed  32 1900, but the village was abandoned.  33 A   Yes, that's the entry.  34 Q   So that's a site that at least has some historic  35 habitation?  36 A   Both historic and prehistoric evidence there.  37 Q   Then the next page, GkSv-2, moving along, which is in  38 the Kisgegas Indian Reserve, is noted under the site  39 name as Kisgegas Band - 3rd location or LOC, and once  40 again, if you review 22 and 23, this was used  41 historically?  42 A   Yes, there are still standing houses in Kisgegas which  43 I started to map in.  There are also prehistoric  44 remains at the site indicative of prehistoric to  45 historic occupation.  46 Q   And then the next site located on your map, which is  47 also on the Kisgegas reserve, is GkSv-3.  This is -- 10980  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 the site name is Kisgegas village, and you will see  2 the note under 23 that it was occupied until 1948.  3 A   Kisgegas village.  The one previous to that, GkSv-2,  4 yes, that site must have been pointed out to the field  5 party as another village, I would say the third.  I  6 don't know if there was any significance to the order  7 in which they were occupied, but a third location,  8 village location of the Kisgegas people, the people  9 living in the Kisgegas locality.  10 Q   And then turning to the last one, GkSv-3, you will see  11 under 23 it was occupied until 1948.  12 A   Referring to three?  13 Q   GkSv-3.  14 A   Yes, okay.  This is Kisgegas village.  15 Q   Yes.  And it's item 23, paragraph 23?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   So this one is historic?  18 A   This is the one that still has standing house  19 structures, and which I started to map, and there are  20 also prehistoric materials at this site.  And that's  21 reported in the -- in our field notes as well.  22 Q   Your investigations at the site of cache pits and your  23 review of these archaeological site survey records  24 indicated to you that this location was occupied in  25 prehistoric, historic times, that is late -- let me  26 put it this way, late prehistoric, historic times?  27 A   There is prehistoric -- evidence of prehistoric  28 occupation at -- at several locations there, as  29 recorded as archaeological sites.  The time -- the  30 time depth, I haven't received dates, but the time  31 depths could be in the order of thousands of years.  32 Q   Or hundreds?  33 A   In comparing the location, the canyon location of this  34 site, and the nature of the fact that there is  35 prehistoric materials found along the Babine just  36 above the confluence with the Skeena, the nature of  37 the canyon setting suggests that it is comparable to  38 and depends on the materials that have been reported,  39 suggests that this is a comparable setting to  40 Hagwilget Canyon, Moricetown Canyon and Kitselas  41 Canyon, where there has been cultural occupation over  42 the last five to six thousand years.  43 Q   It takes a tremendous leap of faith to go from the  44 evidence that you reviewed here to thousands of years,  45 doesn't it?  46 A   No.  MacDonald in, I believe it was in the '67 report,  47 suggested that these were the areas most likely to 10981  S.L. Albright (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Willms  1 contain deeply stratified materials with evidence of  2 long-term occupation.  3 Q   But you didn't find any deeply stratified materials  4 indicating long-term occupation here, did you?  5 A   There are buried deposits -- at these locations --  6 Q   Could you just answer my question.  You didn't find  7 any deeply statified materials here indicating  8 long-term occupation, did you?  9 A   I have not yet conducted an extensive excavation at  10 this site, but there are buried deposits indicated at  11 several locations, and the similarity of the setting,  12 the canyon setting, suggests that it has very likely a  13 history of occupation that is comparable to that  14 recorded at Hagwilget, at Moricetown, at Kitselas.  15 MR. WILLMS:  Exhibit 849A-27, My Lord.  16  17 (EXHIBIT 849A-27 - ARCHAEOLOGICAL SITE INVENTORY  18 FORMS - GkSv -1,2, 3)  19  2 0    THE COURT:  All four pages?  21 MR. WILLMS:  All four pages.  And this would be an appropriate  22 time to adjourn.  23 THE COURT: Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  We will adjourn, then,  24 'til 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.  25 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  26  2 7 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:30 P.M. TO JANUARY  28                      20, 1989 AT 10:00 A.M.)  29  30  31 I HEREBY CERTIFY THE FOREGOING TO  32 BE A TRUE AND ACCURATE TRANSCRIPT  33 OF THE PROCEEDINGS HEREIN TO THE  34 BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY.  35  3 6    37 LORI OXLEY  38 OFFICIAL REPORTER  39 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47

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