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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-09-27] British Columbia. Supreme Court Sep 27, 1988

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 8369  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 VANCOUVER, B.C.  2 September 27, 1988  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  5 Columbia, this Tuesday, September 27th, 1988.  Calling  6 Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen, at bar, my  7 lord.  And I caution the witness, you are still under  8 oath.  9 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie.  10 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord.  Mr. Sterritt, before I leave the Penner  11 Commission material under tab 13 in the book in front  12 of you, I want to refer to the appendix, which is all  13 those, page 8:47 of the report and is numbered 8A:8.  14 And it's entitled "A presentation to Federal Standing  15 Committee on Indian Government, Gitksan-Carrier Tribal  16 Council", February 17th, 1983.  17 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Mr. Goldie, what is the page?  18 MR. GOLDIE:  It's right at the end, my Lord.  19 THE COURT:  Of tab?  20 MR. GOLDIE:  Of tab 13.  21 THE COURT:  Oh, yes, all right.  22 MR. GOLDIE:  And it begins immediately following page 8:47 of  23 the transcript of the evidence.  24 THE COURT:  Yes.  I have it, thank you.  25 MR. GOLDIE:  26 Q   Was that the brief that you presented to the Standing  27 Committee?  2 8 A   Yes, it was.  29 Q   Would you look, please, at page 2 of that, the  30 numbering of the pages as printed it will be page  31 8A:9.  And three paragraphs down there's a heading  32 "Indian Government before European Contact".  Do you  33 see that?  34 A   Oh, yes.  35 Q   The second paragraph under that heading reads, and I  36 quote:  37  38 "The social system was based on the extended  39 family unit or "House" in which kinship and  40 inheritance were reckoned through one's maternal  41 ancestors."  42  43 So when you referred in your evidence to the extended  44 family, you were referring to a house?  45 A   Yes.  On the basis that we discussed it, I believe,  46 yesterday.  47 Q   Well, yesterday I don't think you were too clear in 8370  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 your own mind as to whether the extended family unit  2 was a house or what, but I suggest to you that you  3 have defined for the purposes of your evidence that  4 the extended family unit was the equivalent of the  5 house which has been referred to in these proceedings;  6 am I not right?  7 A   Yes.  In this presentation there -- there were  8 similarities, but in terms of -- it was more  9 complicated than that, as we learned when we put  10 together the Statement of Claim, and as I mentioned in  11 the Walter Wilson example, an extended family there  12 could be two houses in the same extended family.  13 Q   But when you were giving your evidence, and I'm now  14 asking you to turn to page 8:9 of the transcript of  15 the evidence?  16 A   8 —  17 Q   8:9.  That's in the upper right-hand corner, if you  18 turn back to the beginning, the minutes of proceedings  19 in evidence, you will find the pages are numbered --  20 well, actually it looks like a colon.  I call it 8.9.  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   It begins with a paragraph, the words:  23  24 "Now, there's nothing new about that."  25  26 You see that, are you on that page?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   All right.  Now, yesterday I was asking you questions  29 about the fourth paragraph, which begins with these  30 words:  31  32 "Now, that gives you a bit of a background.  It  33 shows you where we were, who we are, in terms  34 of the extended family."  35  36 Just pausing there, you were there referring to what  37 we now call a House, is that correct?  38 A   There I'm referring to the extended family.  39 Q   Yes.  And isn't that what you have defined as a House?  40 A   Generally speaking, for the purposes of this  41 presentation, yes, but it was more complicated than  42 that, as we learned with later work.  43 Q   Well, I hear you state that, that's the second time  44 you've made that statement, but at the time you gave  45 your evidence, as far as you were concerned when you  46 used the words "Extended family" or "Extended family  47 unit", you were talking about what you then understood 8371  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 was a house?  2 A   Yes.  As I understood it then, but as I discovered  3 later with more work it was more complicated than  4 that, and at the time I may have appreciated that it  5 was more complicated but not have fully understood it,  6 and for the purposes of this presentation it was  7 sufficient for the points that we were trying to make  8 to the Self-Government Committee.  9 Q   Yes.  And when you say it was sufficient for the  10 purpose, it was sufficient for your purpose in the  11 evidence that you were presenting that you had created  12 a map on which house territories were depicted, isn't  13 that correct?  14 A   I don't recall to what extent the house territories  15 were presented on there, how many, or I can't  16 remember.  17 Q   Well, look at the next paragraph where you're  18 describing this map.  You say:  19  20 "This map has four colours on it:  Brown, yellow,  21 green and maroon or purple.  The yellow refers  22 to the eagle clan, brown refers to the wolf, green  23 refers to the frog and purple refers to the  24 fireweed.  Those are the main subdivisions amongst  25 our people; and so, wherever you see a name,  2 6 you have an extended family or a ruler who was a  27 ruler over several extended families."  28  29 You were there describing houses and houses within  30 houses, weren't you?  31 A   I don't recall, I may have been.  32 Q   Yes.  And then you proceeded to name certain  33 hereditary chiefs, and we went through that yesterday,  34 and those names were on the map, weren't they?  35 A   I would -- I don't recall, but I imagine they're  36 listed here.  37 Q   Yes.  And at page 812, the fourth paragraph from the  38 bottom, beginning with the words:  39  40 "So we the Gitksan-Carriers say we own 22,000  41 square miles."  42  43 You see that, do you?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And where you say:  46  47 "It is also important to note that it is the 8372  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 extended family, the hereditary chief who owns  2 that land and owns the resources and is  3 responsible for them."  4  5 You were talking about the hereditary chiefs who hold  6 house names, were you?  7 A   Yes.  Well, I was referring to hereditary chiefs, and  8 for the purpose of the presentation I was referring to  9 about a hundred extended families.  10 Q   Yes.  And that means you were talking about a hundred  11 houses?  12 A   To all intents and purposes, that was the number that  13 we were using.  That doesn't mean that there were a  14 hundred -- a hundred houses or a hundred extended  15 families, it was a figure that we were using, and it  16 was a -- it was not necessarily accurate to every  17 degree because further work was done later, and --  18 Q   Well, Mr. Sterritt, in giving your evidence before  19 this committee in 1983, February the 17th, were you  20 being as accurate as your then state of knowledge  21 allowed you to be?  22 A   It was a general -- it was an understanding, there  23 was -- it was the state of our information at the  24 time, I wasn't trying to be precise.  I was trying --  25 the point we were trying to make was how the system  26 worked and in terms of Indian government before  27 Europeans arrived.  28 Q   Yes.  You were being sufficiently precise to allocate  29 territories on a map which you invited the committee  30 to have due regard to, isn't that right?  31 A   The map was -- as I recall, was there to show that  32 there was a system of houses, of crests and clans, and  33 I can't say that that was -- I can't recall just how  34 many territories were on that or -- and at the time  35 they would have been based on the work I had done to  36 that time.  There would have been a lot of  37 extrapolation, and it was a very -- it would have been  38 a very early map.  39 Q   Well, the clans of course were shown by colour,  40 weren't they?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And the houses were shown by the name of the  43 hereditary chief who bore that name?  44 A   Yes.  To the best of my ability, yes.  45 Q   And the number of 100 refers to both Gitksan and  46 Carrier houses?  47 A   I don't recall -- I don't recall. 8373  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   And the number of the population involved at 5,000  2 would be Gitksan or Gitksan and Carrier both?  3 A   That was -- at that time that was our best guess and  4 it would have referred to both, but there are more  5 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en than that, as we know now.  6 Q   Yes.  The -- I'm suggesting to you once again that  7 this map purported to show the boundaries of 100  8 houses as you understood them at that time?  9 A   No.  I was talking about -- the map didn't necessarily  10 show 100 houses, I was talking about 100 extended  11 families.  12 Q   Um-hum?  13 A   I can't recall how many territories that map would  14 have shown.  15 Q   Well, if you were talking about 100 houses why would  16 you depict a lesser number?  What would be the  17 principle you would adopt if you were going to depict  18 a lesser number than 100?  19 A  Well, I think that the -- it would be based on the  2 0 very point I've made a number of times to you about  21 the fact that there are extended families within which  22 there are more than one house.  23 Q   Yes.  24 A  And therefore, it doesn't mean necessarily that there  25 were 100 territories to reflect 100 houses on that  2 6              map.  27 Q   Mr. Sterritt, you defined an extended family as a  28 house, didn't you?  29 A   Yes.  But that was a -- within the understanding that  30 we had at the time, but it's not a -- it wasn't a  31 fixed figure, it was a figure that we were using, and  32 as we later learned it was much more complicated than  33 that.  34 Q   Well, all right.  Would you turn now to page 8:38.  35 You can identify on -- the second paragraph starts off  36 with a reference to Mr. Fulton, "Thank you, Mr.  37 Chairman".  Do you have that?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   If you look at the bottom of the page, you said, and I  4 0 quote:  41  42 "When we talked about no distinction, we mean it.  43 When you sit at the feast, for example, my father  44 is also that, but his name is Wu Gank, that is up  45 in the right-hand corner, and he owns that  46 territory, he is the head chief, and yet he is off  47 the Indian Act." 8374  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Are you referring to your father, Mr. Neil B.  2 Sterritt?  3 A   Yes, I am.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie, I haven't found that.  Is it 8:38?  5 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm sorry, my lord, 8:38.  6 THE COURT:  My copy is very hard to read.  7 MR. GOLDIE:  The number is in the upper left-hand -- upper  8 left-hand corner.  9 THE COURT:  I have it now, thank you.  10 MR. GOLDIE:  And I'm referring the witness to the paragraph that  11 begins at the bottom of the page, "When we talk about  12 no distinction".  13 THE COURT:  Yes.  14 MR. GOLDIE:  15 Q   And this is your evidence, is it not, Mr. Sterritt?  16 A   This is the -- this is what I said there, yes.  17 Q   Yes.  And when you referred to your father, you were  18 referring to Mr. Neil B. Sterritt?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   And his name is -- it's not spelled the way you would  21 spell it today, but that is his Gitksan name?  22 A  Well, that's misspelled by whoever was taking the  23 minutes of the meeting.  It's Wii Gaak, W-I-I space  24 G-A-A-K, is what it should be.  25 Q   Yes.  And that is the name of a house?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And you said "that is up in the right-hand corner".  28 You were referring to the map, weren't you?  2 9 A   I imagine that I was, yes.  30 Q   Yes.  And you said "He owns that territory, he is the  31 head chief".  You're referring to the -- to the claim  32 of an individual house to own individual territory,  33 were you not?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And you said "He is the head chief and yet he is off  36 the Indian Act."  Now, what you meant by that is he  37 was a non-status Indian?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And then on that page, 8:39, you were asked a question  40 by Miss Isaac, who requested you to elaborate more on  41 the role of the women in the traditional system,  42 perhaps by what difference today, and your answer is  43 recorded as follows:  44  45 "Kiloget is a hereditary chief with all the land  46 of Maabeek."  47 8375  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 You were referring to Gyolugyet, Mary McKenzie, were  2 you not?  3 A Yes, I was.  4 Q And what is the equivalent of the word Maabeek?  5 A That should be Madeek.  6 Q Madeek?  7 A I'm not sure whether it appears in the Statement of  8 Claim or not.  9 THE REGISTRAR:  Is that George Naziel?  10 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  11 A No.  That's a Wet'suwet'en.  12 THE REGISTRAR:  Sorry?  13 A How is that spelled there?  14 THE REGISTRAR:  N-A-D-E-E-G.  15 MR. GOLDIE:  16 Q That's the same spelling, is it not?  17 A Yes.  But not the same person.  18 Q Yeah.  And then you go on to say:  19  20 "All Spookw, Ma'os, Gan Lakyeltqu those people up  21 in that area are under Kiloget."  22  23 Now, Spookw is Mr. Steve Robinson?  24 A That's an error in the transcript.  25 Q Well, let's just go through this.  Spookw is Steve  26 Robinson, is it not?  27 A Yes.  28 Q And Ma'uus is who, Jeffery Harris?  29 A Jeffery Harris, Jr.  30 Q Yes.  And the next name is that of Solomon Marsden?  31 A Yes.  Well, it's not spelled right, but that --  32 Q That's who the reference is to?  33 A Yes.  34 Q Yes.  And you recognize that there's something wrong  35 there, do you?  36 A Yes.  That's -- I don't know how they've picked up  37 that statement, but that's wrong.  38 Q And which is the part that is wrong?  39 A Well, Spookw, Ma'uus and Gamlaxyelt are not under  4 0 Gyolugyet.  41 Q Nor do they have territory in that area, do they?  42 A Ma'uus has.  43 Q In the area with Gyolugyet?  44 A Near Gyolugyet, yes.  45 Q I see.  And then you go on to say:  46  47 "Kiloget is a matriarch; she is a lady." 8376  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 By that did you mean that she was the head chief of a  2 house in which there were wings of a house, or that  3 there were other houses under her?  4 A  Well, what I'm saying here is Miss Isaac asked a  5 question about whether women are involved in the  6 system, and what I'm pointing out is that there are  7 chiefs who are -- who are ladies and are part of the  8 system, and that's Gyolugyet, Mary McKenzie, and the  9 next one should be Waiget, W-A-I --  10 Q   You're now referring to the fourth line, I haven't got  11 there yet.  12 A   Yes.  Waiget is Elsie Morrison, and she is a  13 hereditary chief.  14 Q   Yes.  I'm still concerned about the first two  15 sentences.  And you said Gyolugyet is a hereditary  16 chief with all the land of Madeek.  What did you mean  17 by that, please?  18 A  Well, I don't know what they've got here, but Madeek  19 is a person in Gyolugyet's house.  20 Q   Yes.  So that statement is right to the extent that  21 Gyolugyet is the head chief of the house and as such  22 she has the final say with respect to the land of any  23 of the sub-chiefs, is that right?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And Madeek is a sub-chief in the house of Gyolugyet?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Then you go on to say, or at least you're recorded as  28 saying:  29  30 "All Spookw, Ma'os, Gan Lakyeltqu those people up  31 in that area are under Kiloget."  32  33 Were you referring to a map which showed those three  34 people as having land up in that area?  35 A   I may have been, yes.  36 Q   Yes.  So we may expect that this map in question  37 contained at least the names that you're referring to  38 here?  39 A  Well, Spookw should not be in that area, so there's  40 something wrong here with the transcript.  41 Q   Well, Spookw isn't under Gyolugyet, is he?  42 A   No.  43 Q   Nor is Ma'uus?  44 A   No.  45 Q   Nor is Solomon Marsden?  46 A   No, that's right.  47 Q   So if you were recorded correctly you were under a 8377  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 misapprehension as to the relationship of those people  2 to Gyolugyet at that time?  3 A   No.  I don't know what has been referred to there, but  4 I didn't have any -- at that time there was -- it was  5 pretty clear to me that Spookw, Ma'uus and Gamlaxyelt  6 were definitely not under Gyolugyet.  7 Q   Yes.  It would be pretty hard for the reporter to  8 manufacturer those names, wouldn't it?  9 A   I have no idea, but it is never -- I've known  10 Gyolugyet for a long time, and I know for one thing  11 there's one wolf house there and two frog, and there's  12 no way that they're under Gyolugyet, nor would I have  13 thought that at the time.  14 Q   Well, the question that I put to you, it was that if  15 you were correctly recorded you were certainly in  16 error?  17 A   Or I'm not sure what that refers to, because I don't  18 know how that was -- how that would come across like  19 that.  There's no way at that time that I would  20 have -- that I would have said that two frog tribes  21 were under -- two frog houses were under a wolf house.  22 Q   Um-hum.  And then we go onto the next sentence:  23  24 "Kiloget is a matriarch, she is a lady."  25  26 What do you mean by "matriarch"?  27 A  Well, she's the head of the house.  I mean she's --  28 Mary McKenzie was the head of that house.  2 9 Q   Right.  And then we come to the next one, and you've  30 spelled that, and that is Elsie Morrison?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Now, she of course is -- holds a name in a house, is  33 that right?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And you say she sits right opposite Kenny's father,  36 that's Pete Muldoe?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   So you're right with respect to that?  39 A   Yes.  4 0 Q   And then you say:  41  42 "I sit at the same table right beside her."  43  44 And that's right, is it not?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And you say she is a hereditary chief, and that is  47 correct, is it not? 3378  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  Yes.  And then you say:  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  A  11  Q  12  13  A  14  Q  15  A   I  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  MR.  GOLDIE  21  THE  COURT:  22  A   '  23  MR.  GOLDIE  24  25  26  27  THE  COURT:  28  MR.  GOLDIE  29  THE  COURT:  30  MR.  GOLDIE  31  Q  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  A  47  ]  "Wooss is a lady with all the powers of the  hereditary chief."  Now, Woos is a name in a house, is it not?  Yes, it is.  And to whom were you referring?  There I'm not sure.  Well, is that a name in the house of your father's  house?  No.  Did he at any time hold that name, Woos?  My father?  Yes.  No.  And you don't know to whom you were referring?  I don't know who I'm referring to there.  :  All right.  In what house is Woos?  Woos, as I recall, is in the house of Gyolugyet.  :  I'm going to ask you, see if you can assist me with  respect to a question and answer you gave in your  examination for discovery.  It's volume 1, question  227, page 37.  Sorry.  Again, please?  :  Page 37, my lord, question 227.  Thank you.  You were asked this question:  "227   Q      Now, with respect to the work that  you did north of Hazelton near  Tomlinson Mountain in whose  territory, if anybody's, was that  work done?  When I say whose  territory I am referring to the  plaintiffs in this case?  A      That is Woos territory, Nii Gyap."  Do you recall being asked that question and do you  recall giving that answer?  Yes.  Is the answer true?  Yes.  Except that I think that the reporter made a  mistake.  That's wolf territory.  I think that what 3379  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  A  9  MR.  GOLDIE  10  THE  COURT:  11  A  12  MR.  GOLDIE  13  Q  14  15  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  22  23  24  A  25  26  27  28  1  29  30  31  MR.  GOLDIE  32  MR.  RUSH:  33  MR.  GOLDIE  34  MR.  RUSH:  35  36  MR.  GOLDIE  37  38  39  MR.  RUSH:  40  THE  COURT:  41  MR.  RUSH:  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  GOLDIE  appears as Woos should be wolf.  All right, thank you.  Nii Gyap being a member of the  wolf clan?  Yes.  Nii Gyap being David Gunanoot?  Yes.  Not today.  No.  But at that time?  Yes.  :  Yes.  All right, thank you.  Now --  Gyolugyet was Laxgibuu, was she?  Yes, yes.  I'm going to refer you to a couple of the diagrams in  the -- attached to the brief that you have identified,  and I'll refer to the page number in the upper right  or left-hand corner, the first being 8A:5.  Yes.  Now, this is -- this is to illustrate your discussion  of what you called planning hierarchies, and the  purpose of which was to indicate that the -- the  planning hierarchy involved with the Department of  Indian Affairs and band councils had been to some  extent imposed on the traditional hierarchy?  Yes.  The purpose of this was to demonstrate the  communication problems between one culture and another  to demonstrate that because there was such a  tremendous language barrier when the Europeans and the  Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en first met that, first of all,  the non-Indian people generally assumed that  aboriginal people were ignorant and stupid.  :  Well, perhaps --  No.  I think that he should answer.  :  That is complete hearsay, my lord.  My friend is inviting the hearsay with these  questions.  :  No.  I beg your pardon.  I said this was to  illustrate your comparison of planning hierarchies,  and the answer is yes or no.  No.  That was not the question.  It had --  What do you say the question is?  I say the question was to illustrate the hierarchy of  the Department of Indian Affairs as it bore on the  traditional hierarchy, and there was nothing to do  with the comparison that my friend invited in his  question, and I say that if he goes to the question he  has to hear the answer.  :  Well, I did not invite any discussion ever. 8380  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 THE COURT:  There is dispute about what the question was, and it  2 seems to me that the way to resolve the matter is --  3 if the witness wants to complete what he said I think  4 no harm will be done in letting him finish.  Mr.  5 Goldie says that's not the question he asked, and he  6 can finish his sentence and then Mr. Goldie can put  7 the question fresh and we'll know where we are.  Do  8 you want to go and finish something, Mr. Sterritt?  9 You may finish.  10 A  Well —  11 THE COURT:  You said something about the Europeans thought that  12 the Indians were ignorant and stupid, I think you  13 said.  14 A   Yes.  And what -- and the purpose of the comparison  15 with -- with this committee was to demonstrate that  16 there was a system, there was a leadership system,  17 that there were hereditary chiefs who were extremely  18 knowledgeable and extremely capable leaders, that  19 because of the language barrier the hereditary chiefs  20 insisted on meeting with the leaders of the non-Indian  21 society such as the Queen, the Prime Minister, the  22 Premiers of the province or the Governor General, and  23 for many many years the only people that -- that the  24 hereditary chiefs were able to deal with were the  25 people in the lowest levels of the planning hierarchy  26 of the European system, people who were simply there  27 to do their job.  It wasn't entirely their fault, but  28 they were there to do their job, they could not  29 understand or appreciate what the Gitksan and  30 Wet'suwet'en, the complex system that was in place,  31 they did not understand their language, they did not  32 understand that when the hereditary chiefs insisted on  33 meeting with their leaders, not with them, it was with  34 a great deal of frustration that the Gitksan and  35 Wet'suwet'en encountered this system, and that  36 frustration went on well into the 1900's -- into the  37 1900's, the 20th Century, but that was -- that was why  38 this -- these comparisons of planning hierarchies was  39 done, to show that the -- that's why the two triangles  40 on the right-hand side, is that the Simgiget, who were  41 the leaders and the rulers were encountering people at  42 the lowest levels in the hierarchy on the other side,  43 and the people at the highest levels simply cast them  44 off, and there is -- it's a tremendous problem, and  45 that's what this was for.  46 Q   Right.  The triangle on the left depicts the people  47 with authority, Simgiget, and people without 8381  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 authority, the lixgiget, is that right?  2 A   Yes.  And the triangle on the right.  3 Q   Well, let me come to the triangle on the right in a  4 minute.  5 A   In a similar way on the triangle on --  6 THE COURT:  No, Mr. Sterritt, you have to let Mr. Goldie ask  7 these questions.  8 MR. GOLDIE:  9 Q   I'm dealing with the triangle on the left.  10 A   Okay.  11 Q   And is the proportion of people without authority to  12 the people with authority approximately that indicated  13 in the triangle?  14 A   It was not necessarily.  I couldn't say, it's -- it  15 was an approximation.  16 Q   Um-hum.  And then the -- the triangle on the right,  17 the approximation that you have, you depict there, is  18 that the apex of the pyramid is at Ottawa, and that  19 corresponds to the simgiget of the Gitksan and the  20 Carrier, is that right?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And the people in Vancouver, Hazelton and on the band  23 council all correspond to the people without  24 authority, the lixgiget?  25 A  Well, the -- no, no, you've got that wrong.  The  26 triangle on the right, which I tried to explain to  27 you, shows the different hierarchies within the  28 federal system and the lowest levels of the hierarchy  29 for the federal system, which could also include on  30 the right-hand side a provincial conservation officer,  31 or someone of that nature, were the people who dealt  32 with the simgiget -- well, dealt with the Gitksan  33 people, and there was simply -- they did not have the  34 knowledge or the authority or the ability to resolve  35 problems that should have been dealt with at a nation  36 level, nation-to-nation level.  The simgiget wanted to  37 deal with the highest levels, and the people that were  38 sent out simply didn't know -- didn't have the  39 authority, they didn't -- they were there simply to  40 carry out a job.  41 Q   Well, the line -- let me put it this way:  Where in  42 your comparison is the line of the people without  43 authority to be placed on the large right-hand  44 triangle if it isn't to be placed at the line that is  45 marked Ottawa?  46 A  Well, the -- in the highest level in there would be --  47 would include the Prime Minister of Canada or the 8382  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Governor General of Canada representing the Queen, but  2 then running on down through it would be all the other  3 levels.  4 Q   Yes.  And my question is if the level in the  5 right-hand triangle separating the people that you  6 characterize as without authority in the European  7 system, where is that line to be drawn?  Is it Ottawa,  8 Vancouver or Hazelton?  9 A   It would be at the Ottawa level.  10 Q   So everybody below that line is, in your  11 characterization, without authority?  12 A  Well, the people --  13 Q   I don't mean --  14 A   That's not my characterization.  The people who should  15 have been meeting and dealing with these issues in the  16 1800's were the -- would be the highest  17 representatives of the Queen, and they should have  18 been dealing with the hereditary chiefs, and that's  19 the point of the exercise.  20 Q   All right.  Now, the proportion of -- in the small  21 triangle, which is to represent the Gitksan-Carrier  22 organization today, is that right, or 1983 --  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Is the proportion of people with authority, namely the  25 chiefs, to the people without authority, namely the  26 remainder of the Gitksan and Carrier people, is that  27 proportion as represented in that small triangle?  28 A   No, not necessarily.  2 9 Q   Should the line be moved down or up?  30 A   I couldn't say.  It's -- this is a representation,  31 it's schematic, it's to demonstrate, to give a  32 comparison, but that's all.  33 Q   Yeah, all right.  Now, over on the right-hand side of  34 the large triangle you have the words "band council".  35 They are of course people who are elected as  36 councillors and chief councillors by each of the  37 bands, is that correct?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And you include them in the -- in the federal  40 hierarchy?  41 A   I include them to the extent that they are part of the  42 federal system or have been part of the federal  43 system.  They are -- and that's the reason they're  44 represented there, but it's more complicated than  45 that, but for the purposes of this presentation, it  46 was the reason they were presented there.  47 Q   You lumped them in with the minor officials of the 8383  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Department of Indian Affairs, did you?  2 A   No, no, no.  I lumped them in -- I put them in there  3 because they -- Ottawa, this is a presentation to a  4 federal -- to a federal commission, and I'm pointing  5 out the -- in terms of the relationships from Ottawa  6 to the local level, the -- that the band councils are  7 part of that system.  As I said, it's more complicated  8 than that, but the Hazelton -- where you see Hazelton  9 would refer to the Department of Indian Affairs, and  10 then the band councils are within that.  11 Q   Yes, all right.  Would you turn, please, to page 8:45  12 in the transcript of the evidence or proceedings.  The  13 first complete paragraph begins with your evidence --  14 sentence, and I quote:  15  16 "I would in no way want to threaten any money."  17  18 Have you got that page?  19 A   That's page 8:45, yes.  20 Q   Yes.  Taking the third complete paragraph down, your  21 evidence there you say, and I quote:  22  23 "Maybe I might have given a wrong impression about  24 the Simgiget and the tribal council.  The  25 hereditary chiefs, you could say, are blessing the  26 tribal council.  They see it as their vehicle to  27 work on this issue."  28  29 This issue being the question of self-determination?  30 A   Self-government here, yes.  31 Q   Self-government?  And then you say, and I quote:  32  33 "Over the last eight years it has been at times a  34 direct struggle between the band council and the  35 hereditary chiefs.  But as the band councils  36 started to understand what was happening there was  37 a lessening of that tension in more co-operative  38 working relationship between the high chiefs and  39 the band councils."  40  41 And the band councils that you're referring there to  42 are the elected councils of each of the bands?  43 A   Yes.  But at that time the band councils are, as I  44 understand it, are made up partly of -- of -- oh, no,  45 that's right.  They're elected, yes.  46 Q   Yes.  By the -- by the members of the bands who are  47 resident in the reserve, is that right, in the 8384  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 village?  2 A   No.  They're not necessarily resident on the reserve.  3 Q   But they are what is known as status Indians?  4 A   Yes.  But they're not necessarily resident on the  5 reserve.  6 Q   What was the nature of the struggle that you're  7 talking about?  8 A   The band councils are working where there's a lot of  9 programmes and programme dollars come from the  10 Department of Indian Affairs, and they -- a good part  11 of their function is to carry out those programmes.  12 The -- the problem is the extent to which the band  13 councils also work on the larger issue of aboriginal  14 title and rights, and the hereditary chiefs want to --  15 wanted to see the band councils doing more of the work  16 that was important to them, so from time to time there  17 was a discussion about that, but -- and the -- it  18 depended to what extent the band was engrossed in  19 major programmes to how they could relate to the  20 efforts for the concerns of the hereditary chiefs, and  21 it varied in band to band, and there could be a  22 struggle because they were trying to carry out  23 priorities.  24 Q   Wasn't it a struggle between those people who were  25 elected and those people who were denominated  26 hereditary chiefs according to the traditional system?  27 A   No.  Because there were hereditary chiefs also on the  28 band council.  29 Q   Yes.  Indeed, that has been a feature ever since the  30 band councils came in, hasn't it?  31 A  Well, it's interesting because the -- the -- in the  32 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en district or area, in those  33 territories, the hereditary chiefs were recognized as  34 the -- as the leaders within that territory early on,  35 so at --  36 Q   And would it be more correct then to say it was a  37 direct struggle between those who favoured an elective  38 process and those who favoured a process that relied  39 upon the traditional system of selecting leaders?  40 A   No.  I wouldn't say that.  41 Q   But there has been a struggle with respect to the two  42 systems, has there not?  43 A   I guess you could use the word "Struggle", but really  44 it's -- that's not necessarily the best word.  There  45 has been a lot of dialogue, and the hereditary chiefs  46 and the band councils have worked out relationships.  47 The band councils work more in the area of programmes 8385  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 and services and then they -- but they also respect  2 the hereditary chiefs.  3 Q   Um-hum.  Well, the word "Struggle" is yours?  4 A  Well, it's a word I used there.  5 Q   Mr. Sterritt, and you identified it as a struggle  6 which over the last eight years has occurred at times.  7 What was the time frame that you chose, what were  8 you -- what was your purpose of identifying the period  9 of eight years?  10 A  Well, as I recall this is 19 what?  11 Q   '83.  12 A   '83.  I guess it was to identify that eight-year  13 period.  14 Q   Well, yes, I appreciate that, but what is significant  15 about the eight-year period?  16 A   That's a period in which -- in which the hereditary  17 chiefs and the band councils were addressing  18 aboriginal title and rights more and more.  19 Q   And there was a struggle with respect to those who  20 favoured the elected system of the band councillors  21 and those who favoured the traditional system of  22 selecting leaders with respect to this question of  23 aboriginal rights and title; is that a fair way of  24 summarizing your evidence?  25 A   No.  I wouldn't summarize it that way.  26 Q   All right.  How would you characterize the nature of  27 the struggle over eight years in respect of aboriginal  28 title as between the band councils and the hereditary  29 chiefs?  30 A  Well, because of the fact that there were hereditary  31 chiefs on the band councils and -- and many of the  32 members of the band councils respected the hereditary  33 chiefs and that system, the -- there was dialogue and  34 debate.  There were some who thought that there should  35 be just a hereditary system, but -- and that had some  36 debate, some dialogue, but it was a healthy debate.  I  37 don't think there was a tremendous amount of tension  38 about it, but it was certainly part of the discussions  39 and debates going on.  40 Q   Um-hum.  And as part of the resolution of that debate  41 was the decision finally made that the aboriginal  42 claim would be made by houses rather than by bands?  43 A   No.  I don't say that that was part of that debate, it  44 was that when you -- when you look at the situation  45 it's the hereditary chiefs who own the territories,  46 and they're the ones -- and the houses, and they are  47 the ones who would have to be plaintiffs.  That's what 8386  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 I recall of that discussion.  2 Q   Um-hum.  You're aware that at one time the Village of  3 Gitwangak commenced an action in its own name claiming  4 territory outside the village?  5 A   Yes.  I recall that, I don't recall what the nature of  6 the -- of the action was and what, you know, in terms  7 of who was framing that, either the band council or  8 the hereditary chiefs, I don't recall that.  9 Q   My instructions are it was not the hereditary chiefs?  10 A   That may have been.  11 Q   And that -- that action was put out of the way in  12 favour of the present action, was it not?  13 A   Yes.  I believe so.  14 Q   In other words, a claim by a village was put to one  15 side when the claims were put forward on behalf of the  16 hereditary chiefs?  17 A   I don't know to what extent they're connected.  It  18 was -- that action was launched by a lawyer from the  19 east, and I really -- I really don't know whether  20 that's the case.  21 Q   Mr. Sterritt, I asked you about this yesterday, and I  22 just want to be clear about it, you have looked for  23 the map that was before the Penner Commission or  24 the -- this committee, Standing Committee?  25 A  Well, if it's -- yes, if it's the one that I've been  26 looking for, then yes.  27 Q   Well, the one that you identified earlier I think you  28 said was about a 1 to 500,000 scale?  29 A  As I recall, yes.  30 Q   That's a scale that is such that it would be very  31 difficult to put detail on, would it not, it's a 1 to  32 500,000 scale, comparable to what I'm holding up and  33 showing you?  34 A   It would be similar to that.  35 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  Very much smaller than the map -- the base  36 map on which you have placed the overlays, maps 2, 3,  37 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9A.  38 THE COURT:  What you showed the witness, Mr. Goldie, was Mr.  39 Macaulay's map.  40 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, thank you, my Lord, Mr. Macaulay's excellent  41 map.  42 THE COURT:  And the number of it is — or is it not marked yet?  43 MR. GOLDIE:  It's not marked, I don't believe.  44 MR. RUSH:  An aide-memoire, my lord, by Mr. Macaulay's request.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  I think it's achieved its notoriety, it's connected  4 6 with his name.  4 7 THE COURT:  Yes. 8387  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 MR. GOLDIE:  2 Q   But what I'm putting to you, Mr. Sterritt, is the kind  3 of detail that you were asking the members of the  4 committee to have regard to.  The names of people on  5 territories is not the kind of detail that you can  6 conveniently get on a map of that scale?  7 A   Oh, yes, you could.  You could write on that scale,  8 you could write names on there.  9 Q   You certainly couldn't ask anybody sitting at a table  10 to have very much regard to a map of 1 to 500,000, you  11 would be much more likely to have a map of 1 to  12 250,000, wouldn't you?  13 A  Well, I don't recall, no, not necessarily.  14 Q   Well, in the past when maps have been put up on walls  15 for the purposes of the education of those who were  16 looking at them, they have been maps of the scale that  17 is shown on the base map that you have been using  18 here, is it not, that is to say 1 over 250,000?  19 A  What do you mean by the past?  20 Q   Well, the feast in Moricetown in April of 1986, there  21 was a map put up on the wall which we are advised had  22 the Carrier-Sekani overlap put on it.  That was a map  23 that was of the scale of 1 to 250,000, isn't that  24 right?  2 5 A   Yes, it was.  26 Q   Yes.  Exhibit 102, which you identified in your  27 examination for discovery, that's on the scale of 1  28 over 250,000?  29 A   Yes, it is.  30 Q   Yes.  Exhibit 5 is of the scale of 1 over 250,000, is  31 that not correct?  32 A   Yes, it is.  33 Q   Yes?  34 A   Those are all to the same base, that's the same base  35 that Marvin George prepared.  36 Q   Yes.  Well, what I'm suggesting to you is that if  37 you're going to use a visual aid for the purpose of  38 indicating to the members of a group, and there were  39 one, two, three, four, five, six members of the group  40 present, you would want something better than a 1 over  41 500,000 scale, would you not?  42 A   No.  I've used -- in doing presentations I've used  43 maps the size of the one that I think you've had in  44 this book or somewhere here during these proceedings.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, yesterday I drew to your attention a proposal  46 which was dated 1981, at which -- I'll get the  47 reference for you, my lord.  It's under tab 5, it's N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Exhibit 733, and it's page 17 and under the heading  2 "Research Procedure".  3 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, tab 5?  4 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm sorry, my Lord, tab 7.  5 THE COURT:  Thank you.  6 MR. GOLDIE:  And it's the second of the two documents under that  7 tab.  8 THE COURT:  Thank you.  9 MR. GOLDIE:  10 Q   It's the Exhibit 733 headed "A proposal to the  11 Resource Development Project Planning Fund".  And on  12 page 17 under the heading "Research Procedure", I find  13 the words "Mapping":  14  15 "The Land Claims office has already prepared a.  16 1:250,000 based topographic map."  17  18 So, Mr. Sterritt, in 1981 you had the base map, didn't  19 you?  20 A  Well, in this -- you're talking about a base  21 topographic map.  I don't recall that that had a  22 territory or anything on it.  23 Q   Well, it is a base map, and what you have done in the  24 intervening period is create overlays, isn't that  25 right, to the same scale, overlays and maps?  26 A   Since then, you mean?  27 Q   Yes.  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Since 1981?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   So I'm suggesting --  32 A   I don't know about since 1981, I don't know at what  33 point that is and I don't know where this got to.  34 Q   Well, Mr. Sterritt, the document is one we discussed  35 yesterday.  It is a proposal to the Resource  36 Development Project Planning Fund.  Just pausing  37 there, that was a proposal to an arm of the federal  38 government, wasn't it?  39 A   Yes, as I understand it.  40 Q   Yes.  And it was submitted by the tribal council?  41 That's -- that has been admitted.  Now, I'm pointing  42 out to you that the tribal council is asserting, as of  43 the date December 4th, 1981, that it has already  44 prepared -- or the Lands Claim office has already  45 prepared a 1 to 250,000 base topographic map.  And  46 I'm -- what I'm suggesting to you, is that not the  47 scale that you would use if you're going to put 8389  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 something up on the wall for the edification of that  2 Standing Committee?  3 A   No, not necessarily.  I was -- there is a map with --  4 which represents the degree of information at the time  5 and there's an extrapolation, an effort to see what  6 the territories looked like, and as I recall, it's on  7 a 1 to 500,000 base.  8 Q   Well, my suggestion to you, Mr. Sterritt, is that that  9 is an entirely different map than the one that you had  10 before the committee?  11 A   I don't recall whether it was or not.  12 Q   Have you made any inquiries of the committee itself as  13 to what became of that map?  Did you leave it on the  14 wall to be included in the committee records?  15 A   Oh, no.  If I took a map to that -- to that  16 presentation I'm pretty sure I would have taken it  17 home.  18 Q   And you've been unable to find a map that fits the  19 description of what you had before that committee,  20 namely colour coded with respect to clans and with the  21 names of the house chiefs on specific territories?  22 A   I don't recall what I used there.  The only one I can  23 think of is the one that I had prepared myself.  24 Q   The 1 over 500,000?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   Was that colour coded?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   And did it have the names of 100 or any number of  29 chiefs on specific territories?  30 A   Yes.  It did have.  I did print in names of chiefs on  31 some of the territories.  32 Q   And you've been unable to find that?  33 A   Yes.  34 MR. GOLDIE:  Now, you -- my lord, I would like to have marked as  35 an exhibit the minutes of the proceedings in evidence  36 of the Standing Committee on Indian Self-Government  37 under tab 13 to which is attached the brief of the  38 Gitksan-Carrier tribal council bearing date February  39 17th, 1983.  40 THE REGISTRAR:  February?  41 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  42 MR. RUSH:  Is this being — yes, that's fine.  43 THE COURT:  All right.  44 MR. GOLDIE:  February 17.  45 THE COURT:  Exhibit?  46 MR. GOLDIE:  734, my Lord.  47 THE REGISTRAR: 734. 8390  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1    THE COURT:  Thank you.  2  3 (EXHIBIT 734 - Minutes of Standing Committee with  4 Brief)  5  6 MR. GOLDIE:  7 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, you told me yesterday that you were  8 unaware of the request that I had made for a map in my  9 letter to your counsel of November 22nd, 1985, that's  10 under tab 10.  Would you just look at that so that I  11 may obtain your confirmation of your evidence  12 yesterday, Mr. Sterritt?  13 A   I think what I said was I couldn't recall it.  14 MR. GOLDIE:  I see.  In any event, I can advise you we received  15 no reply.  I thought you said yesterday that you had  16 no recollection of any such requests being made, but  17 be that as it may, during your examination for  18 discovery you were of course aware of the requests  19 that were being made at that time, weren't you?  20 MR. RUSH:  Well, what requests, what are you -- I think my  21 friend should try to be a little more specific when he  22 refers to that.  23 MR. GOLDIE:  24 Q   All right.  I'll make reference to the discovery  25 itself.  I have reference, my lord, to page -- volume  26 1, page 73.  The discussion between counsel really  27 begins on page 72 question 459:  28  29 "459   Q Well, I am going to ask you then to  30 produce the notes that you made of  31 the proceedings."  32  33 And those, my lord, are the feast notes, and my friend  34 said that a report, a summary of the report by Mr.  35 Sterritt has been developed and references to which  36 we've been made privy to which he's referred will be  37 disclosed, and I state that I'm not talking about  38 documents that are in the report, and it goes over  39 onto page 73.  I am making a request now for every  40 document of which he is an author, and you were there  41 during that examination, weren't you?  42 A   Yes, I was.  43 Q   Yes.  And page 74 question 461:  44  45 461   Q      I accept that modification.  The  4 6 demand I am making is for  47 production of the notes of his 8391  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 his discussions with Mr. Green, plus  2 the notes of his discussions with any  3 other hereditary chief or any elder  4 having to do with the subject matter  5 that we have been discussing."  6  7 Page 76, question 467 to 471:  8  9 "467   Q      Let me ask you the general question,  10 Mr. Sterritt, without regard to this  11 article.  Are the exact boundaries of  12 the hunting territories of each of  13 the plaintiffs' claims recorded on  14 maps?  15 A Hereditary chiefs would be the best  16 ones to speak to that and that is  17 contained in the interrogatories.  18 468   Q Well whether they are the best people  19 to speak to that the question is  20 being put to you?  21 A I am returning the question to you  22 because the statement I made there  23 may be in error, and it has to be  24 qualified by the hereditary chiefs.  25 469   Q Perhaps you were in error when you  26 gave this discussion.  The question  27 today though is are the boundaries of  28 the hereditary chiefs, hunting  29 territories on maps; to your  30 knowledge?  31 A There are some final revisions  32 being done and they have will have to  33 approve those.  34 470   Q So that your answer is:  Yes they are  35 recorded on maps but some of them are  36 being revised.  Is that a fair way  37 of putting it?  38 A Yes.  39 471   Q Have those maps been produced?  40 MR. RUSH:    He wouldn't know that.  They have not  41 been produced.  42 MR. GOLDIE:  I put it to you, Mr. Rush.  43 MR. RUSH:    They have not been produced for the  44 very reason that Mr. Sterritt has  45 indicated.  And that is they are  46 being put in to form to produce them  47 to you. 8392  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 MR. GOLDIE:  I am going to ask for production of  2 the maps to which Mr. Sterritt was  3 referring in 1983 when he said,  4 subject to your satisfying yourself,  5 that this is an accurate statement  6 of what you said that:  'We have all  7 of that -- referring to the exact  8 locations of fishing sites and  9 hunting territory -- boundaries  10 recorded on our maps now."  11  12 Now, Mr. Sterritt, you heard the request, did you not?  13 A   Yes, I did.  14 Q   And can you identify for me today any map which  15 corresponds to that description?  16 A   Sorry.  Could you read that again, please.  17 Q   I'm sorry, I said could you identify for me today any  18 map which corresponds to the description of what you  19 stated in 1983, namely, and I quote:  20  21 "We have all of that -- referring to the exact  22 locations of fishing sites and hunting  23 territory -- boundaries recorded in our maps now."  24  25 A  Well, I'm referring to the white binder maps.  I'm  26 also referring to, in that case, I think I'm primarily  27 referring to the white binder maps, and I don't recall  28 what else.  The only thing that I can mention is the  29 one that I've referred to as the 1 to 500,000, but  30 that is --  31 THE COURT:  What's the scale of the white binder maps?  32 A   1 to 250, but that didn't have a lot of detail on it.  33 It was -- when I say "detail", it was too small a  34 scale to have -- to name every creek, lake and  35 mountain, and there was no effort to do that, it was  36 something that I started in the late '70's.  I used it  37 in many presentations and then -- and it got -- it was  38 well used, it was quite frayed, but as I say, I've  39 tried to find it and I can't find it.  I can't think  40 of what else.  41 MR. GOLDIE:  42 Q   All right.  If you think of anything let me know.  I  43 want to refer to a couple of documents that are  44 referred to in the plaintiff's list of documents.  45 Number 418 is described as "1900, Territories of the  46 Gitksan-Carrier nations".  Are you familiar with that  47 document, or that map? 8393  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A  What is it?  2 Q   The description on the plaintiff's list of documents  3 is quote "1900, Territories of the Gitksan and Carrier  4 nations".  5 A   I don't know what that is.  6 MR. GOLDIE:  I see.  7 THE COURT:  Is that 1,900 territories?  8 MR. GOLDIE:  No.  I think that's the date.  9 THE COURT:  The year 1900.  10 MR. GOLDIE:  The year 1900.  That's what I take it as, subject  11 to my friend's correction.  That has been the subject  12 matter of requests but it has yet to be produced, but  13 more precisely, I'm going to read to you the  14 description of document 3013, February 1st, 1976 or  15 February 1, '76, "N.J. Sterritt, Territories of the  16 Gitksan and Carrier nations".  Now, my lord, we've  17 been requesting that for sometime, and on June the  18 14th of this year my friend, Mr. Grant, stated that  19 document 3013 is a map which I must review, and that  20 has yet to be produced.  Mr. Sterritt, does that  21 description mean anything to you, May 2nd --  22 THE COURT:  No, February.  23 MR. GOLDIE:  24 Q   February 1, '76 N".J. Sterritt, Territories of the  25 Gitksan and Carrier nations"?  26 A   I don't know whether -- well, that sounds like it  27 might be the one that I'm referring to, but I'm not  28 positive about that.  29 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I'm going to ask my friend to have it  30 produced.  Apparently it was in Mr. Grant's hands on  31 June the 14th, 1988.  32 MR. RUSH:  Well, I don't know what the situation is with that.  33 Obviously Mr. Grant was handling it and I don't know  34 if it was in his hands or whatever, but certainly  35 there's been a request for it.  We'll try to find it.  36 THE COURT:  All right.  Are you going onto something else now,  37 Mr. Goldie?  38 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, I am, my lord.  39 THE COURT:  Shall we take the morning adjourn first then.  40 THE REGISTRAR:  Order In court.  Court will recess.  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 8394  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:15)  3  4 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  5 a true and accurate transcript of the  6 proceedings herein transcribed to the  7 best of my skill and ability  8  9  10  11  12 Graham D. Parker  13 Official Reporter  14 United Reporting Service Ltd.  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 8395  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 11:30 a.m.)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  6 Q   Thank you, my lord.  7 Mr. Sterritt, I want to refer to something  8 different, and in part it relates to your evidence in  9 chief with respect to the change in the boundaries of  10 Mary Johnson.  Now, is -- were you -- is it fair to  11 say that in 1985, you were not sure of the boundaries  12 of Mary Johnson's territory near Kispiox?  13 A   I don't recall what I would have thought at the time.  14 Q   Well, I'll be a little more precise.  I'm going to  15 refer you to Exhibit 19, which is under tab 10 of the  16 book in front of you.  Tab 11, I should say.  17 THE COURT:  There are two maps.  18 MR. GOLDIE:  There are two maps, my lord, this is the second  19 one.  20 THE COURT:  Nineteen I think it is, is it?  21 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, that's Exhibit 19.  22 THE COURT:  All right.  23 MR. GOLDIE:  24 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, this is the second of two maps  25 which were part of the interrogatory response of Mary  26 Johnson dated August the 7th, 1986, and you recognize  27 the general location of this territory, do you?  28 A   Yes, I do.  It's near Kispiox.  2 9 Q   Yes.  And my question to you was, and I'll put the  30 time in relation to the date of this map, which I take  31 to be May the 23rd, 1985?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Were you uncertain as to the boundaries of Mary  34 Johnson's -- I'll call it the Kispiox property, at  35 that time?  36 A  Well, that was a draft map at that time.  It was at  37 that time I had understood that Xsu Wii Masxw, X-S-U  38 space W-I-L space M-A-S-X-W was all of Date Creek.  39 Q   Yes.  You've explained that at length to His Lordship.  40 My question is, were you uncertain as to the  41 boundaries of her territory at the time -- at the  42 date -- around the time of that map which is May the  43 23rd, 1985?  44 A   I don't recall.  45 Q   The -- were you the source of the information that  46 was -- I shouldn't say were you the source of the  47 information.  Did you pass on to Marvin George, 8396  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 information with respect to the territory --  2 territories of Mary Johnson?  3 A   Yes, I was passing on information to Marvin.  4 Q   Do you recall the source of your information with  5 respect to the -- with respect to her territories?  6 A   No, I don't, not at the moment.  7 Q   And I think you told His Lordship that one of the  8 reasons why the interrogatory maps were marked draft  9 is that they were being produced in response to  10 requests for -- the interrogatory requests, and  11 because of the court pressure; is that right?  12 A   I didn't say that that's why they were marked drafts.  13 Q   I understood you to say that one of the reasons they  14 were marked draft is they were being -- they were  15 being produced without adequate checking?  16 A   No.  They were draft maps, we knew that they were  17 drafts, but they were produced in response to the  18 demands for interrogatories.  19 Q   Well, is that why they were marked draft?  20 A   Because of the production?  21 Q   Because they were being produced in response to the  22 interrogatories?  23 A   No.  They were marked draft because we knew they were  24 draft maps.  25 Q   Well, in what respect did you know this territory was  26 draft?  When I put it draft, I mean -- I'm using that  27 word as the equivalent of tentative?  28 A  Well, all of the maps, as far as I know, were marked  29 draft, because we hadn't had the opportunity to sit  30 down and go over them in the detail that we eventually  31 did.  32 Q   My understanding, however, is that you didn't commence  33 that intensive review until 1986?  34 A   That's right.  35 Q   So what would make this particular document tentative  36 and require the description of it as draft?  37 A  Any of the maps, until they get into a final approval,  38 should be marked draft.  39 Q   All right.  I just wanted to be sure that at the  40 time -- at the date of this map, you had not  41 contemplated the review process which you say was  42 instigated in December of 1986?  43 A   No, I wouldn't -- it's when the lawyers asked me to --  44 to do that, was -- to sit down and go through that  45 rigorously, was in December.  There was -- I think  46 there was some discussion about that earlier, I don't  47 recall when, but there was a need to -- for me to set 8397  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 aside my duties as president and sit down and review  2 all the material that I had.  3 Q   Well, that was -- that was the intensive review that  4 you've described of December -- commencing in December  5 1986?  6 A   That's when it commenced, yes.  7 Q   Yes.  I'm suggesting to you that there was no such  8 review contemplated on the 23rd of May, or in May of  9 1985, at least what -- anything we've heard so far?  10 A   I don't recall whether there was or not.  11 Q   No.  Well, then my question is, as of that date, what  12 was there that would make this delineation of the  13 boundaries on Exhibit 19 tentative?  14 MR. RUSH:  Excuse me, my lord, my friend has said that he is  15 using his word "tentative" to define the word "draft"  16 on this document.  It may well be that the witness  17 agrees that that is the witness' definition of the  18 meaning of draft, but I -- I don't think that was put  19 to him directly, and my friend introduced the word  20 about three questions ago, and I think if he is going  21 to use that as his definition of draft, I think that  22 at least the witness and Mr. Goldie ought to be of the  23 same mind on that definition.  24 MR. GOLDIE:  I agree with that, my lord.  25 THE COURT:  All right.  26 MR. GOLDIE:  27 Q   What do you mean by "draft", Mr. Sterritt?  28 A  A draft map would be a map in progress.  29 Q   Well, I'm suggesting to you that on May the 23rd,  30 1985, this map was not a map in progress?  31 A   It -- to the best of my recollection, all of the maps  32 were maps in progress, but it doesn't mean that they  33 necessarily had draft copy on them, but they were  34 certainly -- there was the gap between what I was  35 doing and what Marvin was doing.  My material hadn't  36 necessarily gotten to Marvin, or if it had, he hadn't  37 had time to get it on maps, and it was -- there was  38 some information that I discovered later while Mary  39 was on the stand that made me realize that I  40 misunderstood which creek was Xsu Wii Masxw.  41 Q   Yes.  As I say, you've given evidence on that.  Well,  42 Mr. Sterritt, I'm suggesting to you that in August of  43 1986, when the response was given to the  44 interrogatory, there would have been ample time to  45 have added anything to a map dated May 1985, if Mr.  46 Marvin George didn't have all of the information that  47 you were funnelling and recorded on his maps? 339?  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   Not necessarily.  Marvin was for a long time, was one  2 man trying to do a large job.  He did have some  3 assistance later on, so that's not necessarily true.  4 And -- also, it wasn't until in trial while listening  5 to Mary that I realized that there was something wrong  6 with the information that I had.  7 Q   Yes, I heard you say that now three times.  I'm  8 directing your attention to the situation as it was in  9 August of 1986 now, and I'm asking you if it is your  10 evidence that Mr. Marvin George was a year or more  11 behind in his work?  12 A   I don't know.  He was working on different  13 territories, I don't know at what point -- to what  14 extent he might have been behind on a given territory,  15 I couldn't say.  16 Q   Yes.  And of course this map is dated before any  17 interrogatory had been delivered, is it not?  18 A   I don't know when the first interrogatory was  19 delivered.  20 Q   Well, if you would look at tab ten, which is my letter  21 to Mr. Grant and Mr. Rush of November 22nd, 1985, I  22 direct your attention to the first two paragraphs:  23  24 "You will shortly receive our initial set of  25 interrogatories.  These are designed to be  26 answered without the necessity of much of any  27 research as they are individually completed.  28 Please send them to us.  29 We anticipate sending you a second set which  30 may require some research.  We would, however,  31 expect these to be answered before setting  32 examinations for discovery.  We are confident this  33 sequence will materially shorten the oral  34 discoveries."  35  36 Doesn't that confirm for you, Mr. Sterritt, that  37 no interrogatories had been delivered prior to  38 November 22nd, 1985?  39 A   Yes, I guess it does.  40 MR. GOLDIE:  I think I should have that letter marked, my lord,  41 it's been referred to a number of times now.  I would  42 tender it as an exhibit, the letter of November 22nd,  43 1985, from Russell and DuMoulin to Messrs. Grant and  44 Rush.  45 THE REGISTRAR:  Be Exhibit No. 735.  46 THE COURT:  735.  47 8399  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 (EXHIBIT 735 - Letter from Russell & DuMoulin dd.  2 November 22, 1985)  3  4 MR. GOLDIE:  5 Q   So I would suggest to you, Mr. Sterritt, that this map  6 was produced in 1985, at a time when there was no  7 pressure created -- if there was pressure created --  8 by the interrogatories?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And it would have been produced, therefore, in the  11 course of preparing the plaintiffs' case?  12 MR. RUSH:  Well, is that a conclusion of this witness?  13 THE COURT:  Yes.  I'm not quite sure what it means by "produced"  14 either, Mr. Goldie.  15 MR. GOLDIE:  16 Q   Well, let me put it another way, my lord.  That if  17 there was any reason for treating it as a map in  18 progress, it was not created by the requirement of an  19 intensive review or of any review that you are aware  20 of?  21 A   Can you say that again, I didn't follow you.  22 Q   Well, if this map was treated in May of 1985 as a map  23 in progress, it was not because of any review that the  24 lawyers had asked for or that you had in hand at that  2 5 time?  26 A   It would have been produced based on the information  27 that we had at the time.  28 Q   Yes.  And that information was as good as you could  29 get at the time?  30 A   It was -- yes, it was based on the information we had  31 at the time.  I don't know to what extent it reflected  32 any work that I had done subsequently, but I believe  33 that it was probably -- it was probably based on the  34 work that I had done to that time.  35 Q   Right.  And at the trial, you will recall that a new  36 map of this territory was prepared or produced,  37 Exhibit 17-9-A, and that's in the preceding pocket?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   That map took in -- or treated as the southern  40 boundary, what had been shown on Exhibit 19 as part of  41 the territory of Tsibasaa; is that correct?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And, of course, Tsibasaa was a name in the house of  44 Antgulilbix?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   In fact, it was Mary Johnson's -- held by Mary  47 Johnson's brother, Stanley Wilson; is that right? 8400  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   But the northern boundary changed, and it transferred  3 some territory to Ma'uus which had previously been in  4 the territory of Mary Johnson; is that right?  5 A  Well, it appeared on the map.  6 Q   Yes, appeared on the map?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And that can be easily seen by looking at the location  9 of the mountain, Ansa Luu Hlo'os?  10 A  Ansa Luu Hlo'os, A-N-S-A space L-U-U space  11 H-L-O-'-O-S.  12 Q   Which in Exhibit 19 is represented as being within  13 Mary Johnson's territory, and in Exhibit 17-9-A, is  14 depicted as being in the territory of Jeffrey Harris  15 Junior, Ma'uus; is that right?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Now, that -- that change has got nothing to do with  18 Date Creek, has it?  19 A   Partly.  Because what was happening was Peter Grant  20 was preparing Mary Johnson and he asked me to sit  21 in -- this was just prior to her going in to court --  22 and Stanley Wilson was there, and during that, Stanley  23 asked me about Amagyet.  And he -- where was Amagyet?  24 And I tried to determine what he was talking about,  25 and he said that Amagyet went along Date Creek -- or,  26 pardon me, sorry, along Xsu Wii Masxw, and I couldn't  27 figure this out.  I tried to do my best on that, I  28 couldn't figure it out.  Well, I thought I understood  29 it at the time, and a representation was done, and  30 then when I went into court and sat and listened, then  31 I could see that there was still something wrong.  So  32 that was -- that was part of it.  And also, they  33 were -- they were talking about Ma'uus.  34 Q   Well —  35 A  At the same time as they talked about that -- talked  36 about that, I asked -- I pointed out, I said, "I  37 understand from some notes of Jonathon Johnson, that  38 Ma'uus may be in the Ansa Luu Hlo'os area which was  39 actually Gitsum Ganao," G-I-T-S-U-M, G-A-N-A-O.  And  40 then Mary said, "Well that must be right, because my  41 aunt told me that our boundary goes down Xsan Max  42 Hlo'o," that's X-S-A-N space M-A-X space H-L-O-'-O.  43 And so that's -- that's the background to how this map  44 developed.  45 Q   Exhibit 17-9-A?  46 A   Yes.  But it's only part of it, because while they  47 were in court there was still something obviously 8401  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 wrong and I couldn't figure it out.  I went and talked  2 to Jeff Harris Senior, and he showed me the mountain,  3 and that's when I figured out, I realized that Date  4 Creek was not only part of -- Date Creek was Xsu Wii  5 Masxw, that's X-S-U space W-I-L space M-A-S-X-W.  6 Q   Yes.  Well, that was what you described to his  7 lordship, the -- what you did before you -- as you  8 were sitting in the courtroom, you came to the  9 conclusion that you hadn't understood what people had  10 told you with respect to Date Creek?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Yes.  Well, that's not what I'm referring to.  I'm  13 referring to the -- to the change that took place in a  14 boundary which excluded the mountain to which I've  15 referred, Ansa Luu Hlo'os from Antgulilbix's territory  16 and included it in the territory of Ma'uus.  And you  17 say you got a -- some sense of that when you were  18 sitting in on Mary Johnson's preparation by Mr. Grant?  19 A   Not on that, no, no.  I just described what the  20 sequence was.  21 Q   Yes, all right.  When did you learn of the change that  22 gave rise to the attribution of the territory to  23 Ma'uus at the -- I'll say expense of the territory of  24 Mary Johnson, but change from one to the other?  25 A   In the -- in the days just preceding when Mary went  26 onto the stand.  27 Q   All right.  And she described what happened when she  28 was on the stand, did she not, with respect to that  29 change?  30 A   I think she did, yes.  31 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  I'm referring to her evidence, my lord, at --  32 in Volume 12, page 780, line 37, to page 781, line 11.  33 And this is simply Mr. Grant's identification of the  34 Exhibit 17-9-A:  35  36 "MR. GRANT:  I refer you to the second map at the  37 end at Tab 9 of Exhibit 17."  38  39 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  Yes, right, thank you.  40 MR. GOLDIE:  The Exhibit 17 was a book.  41 THE COURT:  Yes.  42 MR. GOLDIE:  And Exhibit 17-9-A was the map which was under tab  43 9.  4 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  And I just wish to -- I wish to give your lordship  46 the evidence in chief on that.  47 MR. RUSH:  Why don't you just wait a moment until I find it, 8402  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 please.  2 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, certainly.  You might want to bring --  3 MR. RUSH:  Go ahead.  It doesn't look like I have it here.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  Well perhaps I can give -- I was reading at page  5 780, line 37:  6  7 MR. GRANT:  "I refer you to the second map at the  8 end at Tab 9 of Exhibit 17.  9 THE COURT:  The second map or —  10 MR. GRANT:  The second — there's two plastic  11 holders with maps in them.  12 THE COURT:  The second one or the second one from  13 the end?  14 MR. GRANT:  The last one, the very last map.  It's  15 roughly shaped like this.  16 THE COURT:  Yes.  17 MR. GRANT:  18 Q  Pie-shaped."  19  20 And then this is addressed to the witness:  21  22 Q  "Now, can you recognize this map, and I  23 just will give you some pinpoints.  On  24 the top of this map is Kispiox?  25 A  Yes.  26 Q  It says -- that's the village there and  27 Glen Vowell?  2 8 A  Yeah.  29 Q  Now, do you recognize that map, the  30 territory referred to on that map, and  31 I'm asking you about the territory that's  32 in the heavy dark line?  33 A  Yes.  34 Q  Okay.  Now, whose territory is that?  35 A  That's our territory."  36  37 You were in court when Mrs. Johnson gave that  38 evidence?  39 A   Yes, I believe so.  40 Q   And she was referring to Exhibit 19-A?  41 A   I don't have a 9-A here.  42 Q   Well, the — I'll give you —  43 A   19-A?  44 Q   Exhibit 17-9-A?  45 A   Oh, okay, I have that here.  46 Q   Yes.  That was what she was referring to?  47 A   I believe so. 8403  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Yes.  And my lord, that was marked as Exhibit 17-9-A  2 in Volume 13 at page 786.  3 And she thought that mountain that we had been  4 referring to was, up until sometime in April, in her  5 territory, didn't she?  6 A   I don't know whether -- I don't know whether she did  7 or not.  She did say that she knew the boundary, or  8 that that was why her Auntie Emily Latz, I believe,  9 had told her that the boundary went down Xsan Max  10 Hlo'o.  I had asked her a question because I had seen  11 an indication on a map, or in a reference by Jonathon  12 Johnson, that Ansa Luu Hlo'os was Gitsum Ganao, and I  13 asked her about that and she said, "Well, that must be  14 why my auntie told me the boundary goes down Xsan Max  15 Hlo'o."  16 Q   Well, that may have been what she told you, Mr.  17 Sterritt.  I'm asking you if you did not hear her say  18 that the mountain was within her territory.  I -- if  19 you want to withhold your answer until I give you some  20 references, please do so.  I'm referring to transcript  21 13, page 848, line 39, and this is cross-examination,  22 my lord:  23  24 Q  "Yeah.  Well, let me ask you this, I'm  25 going to direct your attention to what I  26 understand is a mountain Ansa Luu Hlo'os.  27 Is that a mountain?"  28  29 And then Mr. Grant suggested the interpreter might  30 pronounce it for her, and the interpreter did so.  And  31 line 47:  32  33 A  "Yeah.  That's the mountain Jonathon said  34 Ma'uus owned, the name is Ansa Luu  35 Hlo'os.  36 Q  On Exhibit 17-9-A, would you put a circle  37 around that mountain, please?  38 A Around this?  39 Q  Yes.  Just a circle around the name."  40  41 And the witness did that.  And then at page 849, line  42 25:  43  44 Q  "Yeah.  Now referring you to Exhibit  45 19 --"  46  47 Which is the earlier map which was attached to her 8404  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  interrogatories.  Q  "-- would you circle on that map the same  mountain that you circled on Exhibit  17-9-A?  A Where the Ansa Luu Hlo'os is?  Q  Is that it there?  A  Oh this, yeah, that's the same.  Q  Same mountain?  A  Yeah.  Q  All right.  Would you put a circle around  that, please?  A  Yeah.  Q  All right, thank you.  MR. GRANT:  For the record, my lord, the witness  looked at both names and if you look at  the two maps the two names are the same,  and she looked at them both before she  marked them.  MR. GOLDIE:  Would you like to hand those two up  to his lordship?  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. GOLDIE:  Q  Now, in April of this year, that mountain  was in your territory, at least that's  what you thought at the time?  A  Yes."  Didn't you hear Mrs. Johnson say that?  Yes.  Q  "And then as you say a few days ago, you  learned that Jonathon said that was in  the territory of Ma'uus?  A  Yeah, that was last week."  MR. RUSH:  "When I —"  MR. GOLDIE:  Q   "When I --" yes, thank you.  And it was you, was it not, Mr. Sterritt, who  persuaded Mrs. Johnson to agree to the changes in the  boundary of her territory?  A   I don't think it was a question of persuasion.  I  asked her about that and then she mentioned the creek.  Q   Well, I want to refresh your recollection of what she  did say, and I refer in transcript 13 to page 789,  lines 1 to 3, and this is her examination-in-chief.  A  Q 8405  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Well, I'll start on the previous page.  Mr. Grant was  2 discussing with her the Exhibit 17-9-A, line 46:  3  4 Q  "And I asked you before whose territory  5 was on the other side of that creek?  6 A  They said it was Ma'uus.  7 Q  Okay.  Who said it was Ma'uus?  8 A  Some maps were shown to me a few days  9 ago."  10  11 Didn't you show Mrs. Johnson the maps in question?  12 A   Those -- there was no map drawn until after that  13 discussion.  14 Q   I see.  So Mrs. Johnson was in error, was she?  15 A   I don't know whether she was in error or not.  She --  16 this map here was prepared after that discussion.  17 Q   All right.  I'm going to refer to page 842, and this  18 is part of the cross-examination, and this is dealing  19 with the change that is represented by -- as between  20 17-9-A and Exhibit 19.  Line 43:  21  22 Q  "And can you tell his lordship who told  23 you that?  24 A  Neil showed me the map of Ma'uus, Neil  25 Sterritt, and he said that Ma'uus owns  26 the other side.  That's what I told in  27 the court this morning.  28 Q  Yes.  29 A And that Jonathon Johnson said it belongs  30 to Ma'uus, so I believe what Jonathon  31 Johnson said, late Jonathon Johnson.  32 Q  Yes.  Well, was it Mr. Sterritt who told  33 you what Jonathon Johnson had said?  34 A  Yeah, and he showed to me the map, the  35 very old map, and our boundary is on  36 there.  And Luutkudziiwas owns on that  37 side of -- of Andamhl too.  38 Q  Well, that was what you told his lordship  39 this morning?  4 0 A  Yeah."  41  42 Now Mr. -- did you hear Mrs. Johnson give that  43 evidence?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And do you say that's not a correct version of what  46 occurred?  47 A   No.  I'm not sure what map she is referring to there. 8406  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Well —  2 A   Unless it was the Chris Harris map.  But I don't  3 recall which map she was referring to, and I don't --  4 Q   Well, is it your evidence, Mr. Sterritt, that you  5 didn't show any map to her, you just told her that --  6 or informed her that Jonathon Johnson owned the  7 territory that included the mountain, Ansa Luu Hlo'os?  8 A   No, I'm not saying that.  I don't -- when we met, or  9 prior to -- at the session, prior to her going on the  10 stand, I don't recall having any maps, unless it was  11 the one that went with the interrogatory.  Because I  12 didn't learn any of that other information until after  13 Mary had discussed it in that meeting.  Now whether --  14 whether another map -- whether the Chris Harris map  15 was shown to her, I'm not sure.  I don't recall.  16 Q   Well, let me refer you to an exchange which occurred  17 in the courtroom the next day.  This is Volume 14 for  18 June the 8th, page 862.  I made a request for the  19 production of the map that was -- that Mrs. Johnson  20 had stated was shown to her.  Beginning at line nine:  21  22 MR. GOLDIE:  "My lord, I spoke to my friend about  23 a letter that I had written during the  24 break requesting production of the map  25 which was shown to Mrs. Johnson sometime  26 ago, in relation to the change of the  27 boundary of her territory, and I think my  28 friend is getting it for me.  But to  29 identify it for your lordship, I am  30 referring to Volume 13 of the transcript  31 at page 787, where in chief my friend put  32 this question to the witness at line six:  33  34 Q  'No, Jonathon Johnson told you  35 this a long time ago; is that  36 right?  37 A  No, he didn't tell me, but that's  38 just what I was told a few days ago  39 when they showed me the map.'  40  41 "And I have asked for the production of  42 that map.  And I think it is also the  43 same map which is referred to at page  44 789, again in chief -- well, actually  45 begins with page 788, line 46:  46  47 Q  'And I asked you before whose 8407  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 territory was on the other side of  2 that creek?  3 A  They said it was Ma'uus.  4 Q  Okay.  Who said it was Ma'uus?  5 A  Some maps were shown to me a few  6 days ago.'  7  8 "I think those are both referring to the  9 same thing.  It may also be further  10 duplication of a reference at page 850 of  11 Volume 13, line 31 to line 22.  This is  12 in cross-examination.  13  14 Q  'But up until a few days ago, the  15 members of your house and you  16 thought that it was perfectly  17 proper to go to that mountain; is  18 that not correct?  19 A  No, we didn't say we owned the  20 whole mountain, we say that -- that  21 there is a clearing where Gyadim  22 Lax --'"  23  24 Name that I can't pronounce,  25  26 "i__ lives.  But right on the top  27 of the mountain is Ma'uus, they  2 8 showed me on the map...'"  29  30 End of extract.  31  32 "And it goes over onto page 851, but I  33 think those are all the same maps, and I  34 have asked for the production of that."  35  36 And then there was a request that there be a spelling  37 of the name to which I referred, and then I gave a  38 transcript reference, and then I said at line 16:  39  40 MR. GOLDIE:  "That's on the basis that I am going  41 to proceed, certainly not on the basis  42 how I may vary from time to time.  And I  43 again -- I think this is the same  44 document at page 842 of Volume 13 of the  45 transcript at line 44 to 47.  4 6 THE COURT:  8 52?  47 MR. GOLDIE:  842.  And this is cross-examination. 8408  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Beginning at line -- it should be 43:  2  3 Q  'And can you tell his lordship who  4 told you that?  5 A  Neil showed me the map of Ma'uus,  6 Neil Sterritt, and he said that  7 Ma'uus owns the other side.  That's  8 what I told in the Court this  9 morning.  10                              A  Yes.'  11  12 "And then she goes on to identify that  13 as relating to Jonathon Johnson.  So I'll  14 wait until that is produced or those maps  15 to which those references refer are  16 produced, but to go on with the  17 cross-examination, my lord, the Court  18 should possibly have before it Exhibit  19 17-9-A."  20  21 And then Mr. Grant states, and I start at line 39:  22  23 MR. GRANT:  "My lord, before my friend proceeds, I  24 did speak with him briefly this morning,  25 just before the Court commenced, and I  26 hadn't seen his letter, although I had  27 reviewed the transcripts, so I thought  28 his letter was with respect to a  29 different request than the transcript.  I  30 have clarified the reference that my  31 friend has referred to, and it's also  32 referred to at page 852, where he  33 specifically asks in the transcript that  34 the map -- Mr. Goldie at line six:"  35  36 And then he refers to my request for the map that she  37 looked at, confirming that the territory belonged to  38 Ma'uus.  And then at line nine:  39  40 "I have confirmed, and then I referred to  41 the fact I may have to speak to the  42 witness, and Mr. Goldie commented that  43 she had spoken with Mr. Sterritt.  I  44 confirmed without speaking to the witness  45 but with speaking to Mr. Sterritt that  46 the map to which she is referring is  47 Exhibit 17-9-A, that is the map she was 8409  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 referring to.  2 THE COURT:  That's the one that she was shown?  3 MR. GRANT:  That is the one she was shown, and  4 these references Mr. Goldie suggests are  5 of the same map.  That's the map that she  6 was shown.  That's from confirmation  7 through Mr. Sterritt."  8  9 Now, Mr. Sterritt, were you in court that day?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   And you heard Mr. Grant say that the map that was  12 shown to Mrs. Johnson as confirming that the territory  13 belonged to Ma'uus was Exhibit 17-9-A.  Now, does that  14 assist you in recalling whether that map was in being  15 at the time you discussed the matter with Mrs.  16 Johnson, or whether it came into being after that  17 time?  18 A   It -- when we sat down with Mary Johnson, we did not  19 have a map, as I recall it.  Stanley was talking about  20 that, and as far as I can remember, this map was  21 drafted after that.  And they had talked about the  22 Amagyet area, and because of its relationship to Date  23 Creek, I couldn't figure out where it would go, and --  24 or pardon me, it's relationship to Xsu Wii Masxw.  So  25 I don't -- I don't recall that this map was available  26 on the day that we met beforehand -- on the days that  27 we met beforehand, I do not remember this map being  28 there.  But, as a result of that discussion, I think I  29 went to Marvin and I think I told Peter, I said,  30 "Based on this, we have to draw a different map."  And  31 we went and prepared it and that's what was introduced  32 into court.  But at the same time, I still didn't -- I  33 still wasn't alive to the issue of Xsu Wii Masxw.  34 Q   Yes, I'm well aware of that.  But I put it to you that  35 your recollection in June last year, 1987, was that  36 the map which has been marked as Exhibit 17-9-A was  37 before Mrs. Johnson when you advised her that that  38 property belonged -- or that territory belonged to  3 9 Ma'uus?  40 A   No.  No, no.  I think that we had that session, as I  41 recall it, that information came forward, and then  42 between then and going to trial, a map was produced  43 that would have been shown to Mary Johnson.  But I  44 don't -- I don't -- I think that there was a session  45 between when we sat down and we went to trial where we  46 had gone back and done this map and then brought it in  47 front of Mary Johnson.  I don't recall that this map 8410  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  Q  11  12  13  ]  14  15  A  16  ]  17  Q  18  MR. RUSH:  19  MR. GOLDIE  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  ]  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  i  33  34  ]  35  Q  36  37  38  39  A  40  1  41  Q  42  A   '  43  44  45  Q  46  MR. RUSH:  47  MR. GOLDIE  was there.  I'm pretty certain it wasn't.  Well, Mr. Sterritt, do you deny stating to Mr. Grant  that the map that Mrs. Johnson referred to in her  evidence was Exhibit 17-9-A?  No, I don't.  But I don't think she was referring to  the first session that we had when Peter asked me to  come over when he was preparing her.  I don't think  she was referring to that session.  I think there was  another session afterwards.  Well, Mrs. Johnson's evidence was quite clear.  She  said Jonathon Johnson didn't tell her, "That's just  what I was told a few days ago when they showed me the  map."  That's a few days before she gave her evidence,  wasn't it?  Yeah.  But I think that we were looking at a different  map, and also, I think that --  Well, then, you were wrong when you --  Hold on, I think he should finish his answer.  All right, I agree.  And I think that the sequence of the questions was we  were going through that, Mary mentioned that area, I  said, "I understand," or something to the effect,  "that Jonathon Johnson has said that the Gitsum Ganao  own Ansa Luu Hlo'os," and then she in turn said, "That  must be what my Auntie Emily is referring to, that the  boundary goes down Xsan Max Hlo'o."  And that's the  sequence as I recall it.  Well, I —  And I don't remember this map being there at that  time.  What I recall is that as a result of that  discussion, I went away with -- and Marvin redrafted  it and we brought it back.  But I don't recall that  map being there in the first session.  Isn't that what you told Mr. Grant, was the fact that  this was the map that she referred to as being put  before her as evidence that Jonathon Johnson or -- had  stated that that territory belonged to Ma'uus?  No, no.  That map could have been presented at a  different session after that first meeting.  Well, that's speculation on your part, isn't it?  Well, not really.  I don't recall that that -- I think  had -- if there was a map in the first session it  would have been this one, this other one here.  You mean exhibit --  Exhibit number? 8411  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  Q  2  A   '  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  A  24  25  26  THE  COURT:  27  28  MR.  GOLDIE  29  THE  COURT:  30  MR.  GOLDIE  31  THE  COURT:  32  MR.  GOLDIE  33  34  THE  COURT:  35  MR.  GOLDIE  36  Q  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Nineteen?  Well, I don't know what it is.  But -- and then as a  result of that, in that discussion, we went back and  then did this.  And I don't recall -- I don't recall  that at all.  Well then, I suggest to you that the information you  gave Mr. Grant which led him to make this statement,  and I'm going to read it to you again, was wrong.  And  this is what he said:  "I have confirmed, and then I referred to  the fact I may have to speak to the  witness, and Mr. Goldie commented that  she had spoken with Mr. Sterritt.  I  confirmed without speaking to the witness  but with speaking to Mr. Sterritt that  the map to which she is referring is  Exhibit 17-9-A, that is the map which she  was referring to."  Now, that information as conveyed by Mr. Grant to  the court was wrong, wasn't it?  No, I don't think so.  Because the -- there was, as I  recall, another session in between the first meeting  and Mrs. Johnson going to court.  That statement by Mr. Grant, Mr. Goldie, is on page  780?  :  No, it's page 864.  Oh.  :  Of Volume 14.  Thank you.  :  And I had given your lordship a previous reference  to 780 and 781 of Volume 12.  Yes.  Thank you.  And then at the same time I said, line 21 at page 864,  Volume 14 of the transcript, I said:  MR. GOLDIE:  "Is it my friend's position that  there is no map of Jonathon Johnson?  MR. GRANT:  No, it is not — there is another map  which was produced on the discovery of  Mr. Sterritt, although it wasn't marked  as an exhibit, it was produced to my  friends, I believe.  And this is a map of  Jonathon Johnson, but this is not the map  to which this witness is referring. 8412  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 THE COURT:  Nor the map to which she was shown?  2 MR. GRANT:  It was not a map which she was shown.  3 She was not shown that map.  There is a  4 map that was a sketch map drawn by  5 Jonathon Johnson, and to be quite honest,  6 I'm not certain whether it incorporates  7 even this area, I'm not sure of that, but  8 it's not germane to this.  The production  9 of that, we have no difficulty with that.  10 That was put on our list and it's  11 available.  I'll arrange for the  12 production of that."  13  14 And then your lordship went on -- well, I should  15 read from line 38:  16  17 MR. GOLDIE:  "Well, I think the request that I  18 make of my friend is that there be  19 produced, while this witness is still on  20 the stand, any documentary support for  21 the proposition that was put to her that  22 Ma'uus was the owner of the property  23 shown on Exhibit 17-9-A, which in the  24 earlier map was shown as her property.  25 THE COURT:  Well, I may not have grasped the full  26 significance of the evidence, but my  27 grasp of it is this, that until a very  28 short time ago, as a result of a  29 conversation with Mr. Sterritt, and I  30 think she said two weeks, that she was  31 not aware of any question about that  32 boundary.  33 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  34 THE COURT:  Therefore, if she was shown the map  35 that Mr. Grant says is 17-9-A, then that  36 would seem to answer your inquiries?  37 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  I am only pursuing it to this  38 extent, my lord, that if there is any  39 other documentary support for the change  40 in the map lines, other than the map  41 itself.  42 THE COURT:  Yes.  You are not restricting that  43 request then to material that was shown  44 to the witness by Mr. Sterritt?  45 MR. GOLDIE:  Nothing whatsoever, no, I'm — before  46 this witness leaves the box, I wish to  47 have that clear. 3413  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  18  19  Q  20  A  21  22  23  24  25  26  Q  27  28  29  30  A  31  Q  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  37  A  38  39    I  MR. RUSH  40  A  41  42    I  MR. GOLD  43  Q  44  45  46  47  A  THE COURT:  Well, I'm sure your friend understands  that request and he will deal with it if  he can.  MR. GRANT:  Yes, my lord.  THE COURT:  Now, do I need 17, and if I do —  MR. GOLDIE:  17-9-A —"  And so on.  Now, you were in court when that exchange  took place?  Yes.  His lordship was clearly under the erroneous  impression that it was map 17-9-A that had been shown  to the witness by you, wasn't he?  No, I don't think so.  I see.  As I recall, we had the session, changes were made by  Marvin, and we showed her a map again later.  I don't  recall any other map.  The -- any other map than 17-9-A?  No.  I don't recall -- well, I don't know at what  point in that trial, Exhibit 19, when that was shown  to her or what.  I don't recall that.  But in any  event, this map, as a result of that meeting, was  prepared and shown to Mary Johnson at some point  between then and when she went to trial.  Yes.  Well, Mr. Sterritt, when you interviewed Mrs.  Johnson the first time around and the question of  Ma'uus' ownership of the territory shown as Ma'uus' in  17-9-A came up, did you show her a map?  I don't recall.  I don't recall.  You could have then?  I don't recall.  I know you don't recall, but -- and it's a year after  you informed Mr. Grant along the terms of what I've  just read to you, but is it possible that you had such  a map?  I didn't have any maps as I recall.  I think that  Peter might have had this map, but I don't --  Exhibit 19.  It would have been Peter that would have had it.  That's Exhibit 19.  Yes.  Well if Mr. Grant was preparing Mrs. Johnson to  give her evidence, it is likely that he might have had  the map which was attached to her interrogatory  response?  It's likely, but -- 8414  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   All right.  2 A   I didn't bring any maps to that meeting.  3 Q   All right.  What did you tell Mrs. Johnson that caused  4 her to accept the proposition that what she had  5 thought was her territory was -- really belonged to  6 Ma'uus?  7 A  Well, I raised the question as I've already described  8 it, and then at that point it was in the hands of  9 Mary.  She -- at that point she mentioned that her  10 auntie had told her that the boundary goes down Xsan  11 Max Hlo'o.  12 Q   Well, Mr. Sterritt, is it -- why did you raise the  13 question?  What was there in your mind that raised the  14 question?  15 A   Because Jonathon Johnson had mentioned that the Gitsum  16 Ganao are at Ansa Luu Hlo'os and I wanted to get a  17 sense from her what she thought of that.  18 Q   And when did Jonathon Johnson say that?  19 A   Oh, I think about 1965, to Wilson Duff.  20 Q   And was that information which you passed on to Marvin  21 George?  22 A   No, no, not necessarily.  23 Q   Well, you say not necessarily?  24 A  Well, I don't believe that I did, no.  25 Q   Well, isn't that an important piece of information?  26 Jonathon Johnson being dead?  27 A   It -- yes, it ultimately was, but at the time it  28 wasn't something that had gone into the preparation of  29 the maps.  It was information that was available to  30 me, and I preferred to work with the hereditary chiefs  31 and get the information from them.  32 Q   Well, the information from them, as you put it,  33 resulted in Exhibit 19, which is the map dated May  34 23rd, 1985; isn't that right?  35 A   Yes.  But it wasn't very much information.  It was  36 some information, but not all of the information that  37 eventually came to me.  38 Q   So you received some information in 1965, or came  39 across a document that indicated information that was  40 given to Wilson Duff in 1965, and that caused you to  41 raise the question which caused you, as your evidence  42 is given here, for Mary Johnson to say, "That's what  43 my auntie told me."  44 A  Well, I had spent the winter from 1986 through to the  45 spring of 1987, going into a more intensive review,  46 and I had gone -- that was part of the process that I  47 had engaged in at that time, and at that point I 8415  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 raised that question.  2 Q   And you preferred the evidence of Jonathon Johnson as  3 given to Wilson Duff to that of the evidence of  4 whoever you were relying upon when Exhibit 19 was  5 prepared by Marvin George?  6 A   No, no, no, that's not true.  I asked the question, I  7 didn't tell Mary Johnson that the Gitsum Ganao owned  8 Ansa Luu Hlo'os.  I asked her, and I could have gotten  9 any answer from her.  10 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie, would it be very convenient if we could  11 adjourn now?  12 MR. GOLDIE:  That's fine, my lord.  13 THE COURT:  All right.  I have a minor engagement at lunch that  14 I think leads me to suggest it would be convenient if  15 we come back at 2:15.  16 MR. GOLDIE:  Right, my lord.  17 THE COURT:  It doesn't happen too often.  18 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court stands adjourned until  19 2:15 p.m..  20  21 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:25 p.m.)  22  23 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  24 a true and accurate transcript of the  25 proceedings herein transcribed to the  26 best of my skill and ability.  27  28  29  30  31 Toni Kerekes,  32 O.R., R.P.R.  33 United Reporting Service Ltd.  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 8416  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 2:15)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Calling Delgamuukw versus Her  4 Majesty the Queen, at bar.  5 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Goldie.  6 MR. GOLDIE:  7 Q   My lord.  Mr. Sterritt, before lunch we were talking  8 about the territory of Mary Johnson.  And the  9 territory changed again from Exhibit 17-9-A to what is  10 now outlined in overlay map 9-A, is that right?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And that change came about according to the evidence  13 that you gave in your examination in chief listening  14 to Mrs. Johnson give her evidence and coming to the  15 conclusion that you had misunderstood the nomenclature  16 to be attached to Date Creek.  Have I got that  17 correct?  18 A  Well, I had understood that Xsu Wii Maxw, X-S-U space  19 W-I-L space M-A-X-W, was all of Date Creek, and in  20 fact, it was only part of it.  21 Q   That's what I meant when I said you had misunderstood  22 the nomenclature to be attached to Date Creek.  23 Instead of one name running from the outlet in the  24 Kispiox River to the headwaters it had what, two or  25 three names?  26 A   I only know -- what I established was that Xsu Wii  27 Maxw went from the mouth of Date Creek, part ways up  28 Date Creek, and then there's a major tributary comes  29 from the north-west and that that was Xsu Wii Maxw.  30 Q   Yes.  And that what is today called Date Creek beyond  31 the junction of that tributary and Date Creek had  32 another name in the Gitksan language?  33 A  Well, I'm not clear on what that name is beyond there.  34 Q   All right.  The result, however, is that Wii Elaast  35 and Amagyet now own a slice of territory between two  36 parts of Ma'uus' territory?  37 A   On the north side of Date Creek and Xsu Wii Maxw.  38 Q   Yes?  39 A  Well, basically on the north side of Xsu Wii Maxw.  40 Q   Yes?  41 A   That Amagyet has territory along there.  42 Q   Along with Wii Elaast?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And Mary Johnson, in the result, has found her  45 territory enlarged at the expense of Ma'uus in the  46 sense of her territory, instead of being bound by Date  47 Creek from its mouth to its headwaters, is bound by 8417  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Date Creek only to the junction of that tributary and  2 Date Creek?  3 A  Well, the map demonstrates where the territory should  4 have gone.  Whether the territory was enlarged, no, I  5 can't say that.  6 Q   Well, that's the effect, isn't it?  What had been  7 marked on Exhibit 17-9-A as Ma'uus' territory is now  8 in part the territory of Mary Johnson?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And all this has occurred since Mary Johnson gave her  11 evidence and identified her territory as that shown  12 between the heavy lines on Exhibit 17-9-A?  13 A   Yes.  In terms of the mapping.  14 Q   Yes?  15 A   That's right.  16 Q   Well, in terms of the information -- in terms of her  17 evidence.  You didn't satisfy yourself about the names  18 of Date Creek until after she had given her evidence?  19 A   That's right.  I could, from sitting there listening,  20 I could see that something was wrong, and I thought  21 that I had better go and check on that, and at that  22 point my long-standing assumption that Date Creek was  23 all Xsu Wii Maxw was -- I was able to get more  24 specific information on that.  25 Q   Was that an assumption, or was that based upon what  26 somebody had told you?  27 A   The assumption that it went beyond the point where it  28 turned to the right, that would be an assumption on my  29 part.  Many people have told me that Date Creek was  30 Xsu Wii Maxw without making the distinction that Xsu  31 Wii Maxw turned and left Date Creek part ways up.  32 Q   Well, this was not a case of there being two sources  33 of information, one with respect to the name of Date  34 Creek, as you assumed it, and the other with respect  35 to the nomenclature of Date Creek as you ultimately  36 accepted it?  37 A   No.  38 Q   Well, if I understand your evidence correctly then, it  39 was an extrapolation on your part?  40 A   It -- no.  I couldn't say it was an extrapolation.  41 People had told me that Date Creek was Xsu Wii Maxw.  42 No one had said anything about other creeks farther up  43 Date Creek.  My father, one winter I was cutting wood  44 with him at near the mouth of Date Creek, and he gave  45 the name as Xsu Wii Maxw.  He didn't say how far it  46 went.  I had talked to some other people, they had --  47 David Gunanoot said he was born at the mouth of Xsu 8418  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  1  2  3  1  4  5  6  Q  7  8  9  i  10  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  1  17  18  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  i  25  A  26  Q  27  28  29  A  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  MR. GOLDIE  45  46  THE COURT:  47  A   '  Wii Maxw and that that was Date Creek.  Other people  have referred to Date Creek, but no one had made the  distinction between -- that there was a large  tributary farther up, and no one had given me that  name.  Well, I was using a word which you've used from time  to time in your evidence, "Extrapolation".  If that's  not a correct use of that word to describe what you  did hear, when you use the word extrapolation what did  you mean?  You mean extending a boundary from one  point to another on the basis that that seems to be a  logical thing to do?  I used extrapolation in the sense that early on when I  was -- had a certain amount of information and not  necessarily complete information, attempting to  determine where the boundary might be between those  two points I would extrapolate and draw a boundary  that may or may not have been an accurate boundary.  You've described this in your evidence in chief, I'm  sure, but when you heard Mrs. Johnson give her  evidence, and -- was it her evidence in chief or on  cross-examination that she gave evidence that caused  you to consider the situation with respect to Date  Creek?  Oh, it was while she was in cross-examination.  And are you able to point out to me -- well, perhaps  you should tell me just what it was that she said that  caused you to do this?  I don't recall.  I would have to look at the  transcripts, but it was while she was in cross, and  you were asking her a number of questions and  something just didn't add up with what I understood,  and so on the following morning I went out -- I think  it was the following morning, or that weekend, I asked  Jeff Harris if he would go with me, and he did.  Jeff Harris being Ma'uus?  No Jeff Harris, Sr.  Which one went with you?  Jeff Harris, Sr.  Sr.?  Does he hold a name?  Yes.  In what house?  The House of Luus.  :  Luus, right.  Now, I'm going to refer you to the  transcript --  Sorry, was --  Walter Harris, he's the nephew of Jeff. 8419  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 THE COURT:  I'm sorry?  2 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm going to refer you to some of Mrs. Johnson's  3 evidence at volume 13, page 842, beginning at line 18.  4 THE COURT:  Sorry, the reference again?  5 MR. GOLDIE:  Page 842, my lord:  6  7 "Q Yes.  First tell me why you thought the map  8 marked 'draft copy' was the right map, if I  9 may put it that way, the right way to show  10 the boundaries of your territory?"  11  12 My lord, that was the document which was marked  13 Exhibit 19 and on which she identified her territory  14 on her examination for discovery.  15  16 "A Yes.  The reason is because some other  17 family owns the other side and some on that  18 side, so that's why it's correct.  19 Q Well, I'm not too sure that I quite  20 understand that, but perhaps I can get at it  21 another way.  Before you swore the -- took  22 an affidavit verifying the correctness of  23 the responses to the interrogatory, did  24 somebody explain that map to you?  Perhaps,  25 if I may assist you, when you first looked  2 6 at that map --  27 A Yeah.  28 Q -- if you can cast your mind back a bit,  2 9 did you have anything of your own to compare  30 it with, or did you have a discussion with  31 any members of your family, any of your  32 chiefs, in which you satisfied yourself that  33 the proper boundaries were shown there?  34 A Someone showed me that -- that Ma'uus owns  35 the northern part of -- that's the other  36 side, Xsikadook.  Our boundary is the creek.  37 Q Uh-huh?  38 A So -- so the creek covers our boundary where  39 Gyadim Lax ts'inaast comes from.  40 Q And can you tell his lordship who told you  41 that?  42 A Neil showed me the map of Ma'uus, Neil  43 Sterritt, and he said that Ma'uus owns the  44 other side.  That's what I told in the court  45 this morning.  46 Q Yes?  47 A And that Jonathon Johnson said it belongs to 8420  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Ma'uus, so I believe what Jonathon Johnson  2 said, late Jonathon Johnson.  3 Q     Yes.  Well, was it Mr. Sterritt who told you  4 what Jonathon Johnson had said?  5 A     Yeah, and he showed to me the map, the very  6 old map, on that side of -- Andamhl too.  7 Q     Well, that was what you told his lordship  8 this morning?  9 A     Yeah."  10  11 Now, was it that evidence which triggered your belief  12 that there was a change to be made in the boundary?  13 A   I don't know whether it was or not.  14 Q   I see.  15 A   I would have to read the whole -- or that part of the  16 transcript.  17 Q   All right.  In any event, you're now telling us that  18 Mrs. Johnson was quite in error that you showed her a  19 map with respect to what Jonathon Johnson said?  20 A   No.  I'm not saying that.  In the session that Peter  21 Grant and I had with her I don't recall showing her  22 any map.  During that discussion I brought forward the  23 information, Mary commented on it, and then, as I  24 recall subsequent to that, I asked Marvin to redo that  25 map, and I don't recall at what point that map was put  26 to Mary, but I would presume it was between when I had  27 the first discussion and when Mary went to court.  28 Q   You didn't -- your evidence is you didn't show her any  2 9 map at any time?  30 A   No.  I don't think I said that.  I think I said that  31 between the session where Stanley and Mary were  32 talking about the -- that territory and when she went  33 to court a map was put to her, and I don't recall  34 whether I did or whether Peter did, but I'm assuming  35 that a map was put to her during that period.  36 Q   You say "I'm assuming"?  37 A   I think I may have been present at that, I don't  38 recall.  39 Q   You think you may have been present but you don't  40 recall, so I'm suggesting to you that you're  41 speculating that you were present when any map was  42 given to Mary Johnson?  43 A   No, no.  44 Q   All right.  Now, tell me whether Mary Johnson saw a  45 map of territory which indicated to her that Jonathon  46 Johnson had said that some portion of her territory  47 belonged to Ma'uus? 8421  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A  Well, I don't know of a map of Jonathon Johnson  2 that -- of Jonathon Johnson's that shows that  3 territory, I don't recall that.  4 Q   Well, I started out by saying to you your evidence  5 here is that she is in error when she said "And he  6 showed to me the map, the very old map and our  7 boundary is on there"?  8 A  Well, I don't recall that.  9 Q   Well, would you not agree with me that your evidence  10 here is that she is in error?  11 A   I can't say that, no.  12 Q   Well, does -- am I to take it from that that you might  13 have showed her a map and told her that Jonathon  14 Johnson owned that territory; is that a possibility  15 that we are to take from your evidence?  16 A   No.  I never told her that Jonathon Johnson owned any  17 territory.  I told you that Jonathon Johnson had made  18 a reference to the Gitsumganao owning territory at  19 Xsan Max Hlo'o.  20 Q   Yes.  I appreciate that Johnson, the late Jonathon  21 Johnson didn't say the territory belonged to him, Mrs.  22 Johnson's recollection is that you said that Jonathon  23 Johnson had said the territory belonged to Ma'uus, so  24 that's what we're talking about, isn't it?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   All right.  Now, am I to take it that -- from your  27 last answers that there is indeed a possibility that  28 you showed a map to Mrs. Johnson which answers the  29 description, the map, the very old map, and advised  30 her that Jonathon Johnson had said that Ma'uus owns  31 the territory to the north of hers; is that a  32 possibility?  33 A   I don't recall doing that.  34 Q   I know you don't recall it, Mr. Sterritt, you've said  35 that several times, but are we to take it from the  36 evidence that you have given in which you've stated  37 that you're not prepared to say that Mrs. Johnson was  38 in error, that there is a possibility that she did  39 what she described you did?  40 A  Well, I don't recall it.  The only one I can think of  41 is 19-A or 17-9-A, but I don't recall that, any other  42 map.  43 Q   And your evidence here is that she didn't see that map  44 until after the boundary change had been determined?  45 A  As near as I can recollect it, yes.  46 Q   All right.  Mr. Sterritt, Mrs. Johnson is a Simgiget?  47 A   Sigidim Hanak, S-I-G-I-D-I-M space H-A-N-A-K. 8422  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Is that the same word as the one you used in your  2 evidence to the parliamentary committee, Simgiget?  3 A   That would be a general term for all chiefs, but  4 Sigidim Hanak means a female chief.  Simgiget is  5 collective for all male chiefs and sometimes includes  6 female chiefs.  Sigidim Hanak is the proper term for a  7 woman chief.  8 Q   Yes.  Well, is Mrs. Johnson to be included in the  9 collective group, Simgiget?  10 A   Yes.  You could do that.  11 Q   Therefore, she is one of those with authority?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   Now, do you classify yourself as falling within that  14 group, Simgiget?  15 A   I wouldn't --no.  I wouldn't classify myself in that  16 rank.  17 Q   You fall within the group Lixgiget?  18 A  Well, that's a distinction, I was trying to make a  19 point with the parliamentary committee that I was  20 doing the presentation for.  It is a term that  21 explains how the kind of a distinction between the  22 high chiefs and the -- and some of the people.  It --  23 in terms of Lixgiget, I think it's more complicated  24 than I described it there, but I was trying to get  25 across a certain amount of information to the  26 parliamentary committee.  27 Q   Well, I appreciate that, and I'm -- I just wish to be  28 informed in terms of -- in the terms that you used.  29 You do not consider yourself as being one of the  30 Simgiget, and my question to you was does that imply  31 that you are one of those that are identified by the  32 word Lixgiget?  33 A  Well, the Simgiget include hereditary chiefs and  34 sub-chiefs, and I don't know what the finest line on  35 that would be on that, but it generally is a  36 definition, and it's a definition that I use.  I'm not  37 sure that it's a precise definition.  I don't know  38 where the -- exactly where the line would be drawn.  39 Q   Well, I was asking you on which side of the line do  40 you fall?  41 A   I don't think it's up to me to put myself on either  42 side of the line.  43 Q   I see.  You might be one or the other?  44 A   No.  I didn't say that.  I don't think it's up to me  45 to say what I am or am not.  46 Q   Well, how do you regard yourself?  47 A  Well, Pete Muldoe has indicated that he considers me a 8423  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 hereditary chief, but I think that there is a lot of  2 stages in that and it's more complicated than that,  3 and I'm -- I don't consider myself very high in that  4 ranking.  I think you know I'm learning.  5 Q   All right.  The authority which is possessed by the  6 Simgiget and which is not possessed by the Lixgiget  7 relates to territory?  8 A   I don't know whether it does or not, I couldn't say.  9 Q   You aren't knowledgeable enough to answer that  10 question?  11 A   No.  12 MR. GOLDIE:  Now, I want to go on to another piece of land.  13 THE COURT:  Put those two maps away?  14 MR. GOLDIE:  15 Q   Those maps I think can be put away, my lord.  Oh,  16 before I leave Mary Johnson's territory, I am correct,  17 am I not, that the boundaries on map 9-A of her  18 territory have been spoken to by others than Mrs.  19 Johnson?  20 A   There are neighbours, yes, who have, for which  21 affidavits have been done.  22 Q   Yes.  But not Mrs. Johnson?  23 A   No.  24 Q   The next one I want to ask you about is the territory  25 of Haxbagwootxw H-A-X-B-A-G-W-O-O-T-X-W, and I think  26 you have earlier identified the holder of that name as  27 Mr. Ken Harris?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   He lives in Prince Rupert?  30 A   No.  31 Q   Where does he live now?  32 A   I'm not sure.  I think he's in -- attending University  33 of British Columbia.  34 Q   And when the former holder of that name died there was  35 a dispute over the successor?  36 A   I don't know that.  37 Q   Well, were you in court when Mrs. Ryan gave her  38 evidence?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Do you remember her speaking about a dispute arising  41 as between Ken Harris and Stanley Williams as to who  42 would be the holder of the name?  43 A   I don't recall that.  44 Q   I'm referring to a transcript, volume 21, my lord,  45 June 17th, 1987, page 1364, line 23, to page 1367,  46 line 26.  Were you present when Mrs. Ryan was being  47 cross-examined by Mr. Plant? 8424  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   I believe I was throughout that, but I don't -- I'm  2 pretty sure I was, yes.  3 Q   Question at line -- this really should be line 22:  4  5 "Q You know Ken Harris?  6 A Yes.  7 Q And he holds a Gitksan name; doesn't he?  8 A Yes.  9 MR. PLANT:  You have some uncertainty about that?"  10  11 And then there was an exchange between counsel and his  12 lordship said:  13  14 "THE COURT:   She definitely had a hesitation in  15 her answer."  16  17 And so on question at line 41:  18  19 "Q We are all talking about the fact that you  20 took a second or two to answer my question  21 about whether Ken Harris has a Gitksan name?  22 A Yes.  23 Q Are you certain of that?  Are you certain he  24 has a name?  25 A Yes.  2 6 Q     And what is the name?  27 A You want me to -- to answer that?  28 Q I wouldn't have asked it if I didn't want  29 you to answer it, Mrs. Ryan.  30 A Haxbagwootxw.  It is in Gwis Gyen's House.  31 MR. PLANT:  Haxbagwootxw is one of the names?  32 THE TRANSLATOR:  It is number 34.  33 MR. PLANT:  34 Q Haxbagwootxw is a chief's name, isn't it?  35 A Well, Gwis Gyen is the chief in that house.  36 Q Is Gwis Gyen the only chief in the house?  37 A Well, they four in that house.  38 Q And one of the chiefs in that house is  39 Haxbagwootxw?  40 A Yes.  41 THE COURT:  Could I have that number again,  42 please?  43 THE TRANSLATOR:  Number 34.  4 4 THE COURT:  Thank you.  45 MR. PLANT:  And does your lordship have Gwis Gyen  46 as number 22?  4 7 THE COURT:  Yes. 8425  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 MR. PLANT:  2 Q     Does Haxbagwootxw have his own house?  3 A     No.  4 Q     Now, we are talking about the Fireweed clan,  5 aren't we?  6 A     Well, this house is there.  That's  7 Guxsan, Gwis gyen, Wiigyet, Xsgogimlaxha.  8 There is five house in the village.  9 Q     I think you called them --  10 A     Means 5 brothers.  11 Q     The 5 brothers, yes.  12 Q     Where does Ken Harris live?  13 A     In Prince Rupert.  14 Q     He's lived there for a long time, hasn't he?  15 A     Yes.  16 Q     Do you remember when he took the name  17 Haxbagwootxw?  18 A     No, I can't.  19 Q     Was Haxbagwootxw ever a chief of the house?  2 0 A     Gwis Gyen was.  21 Q     That's not my question.  Was Haxbagwootxw  22 ever the chief of his own house?  23 A     No.  They don't have their own house.  They  24 are at the same house in Gwis Gyen.  25 Q     As far as you are aware was that always the  26 case?  27 A     Yes."  28  29 And then his Lordship asked if Ken Harris is one of  30 the 5 brothers, et cetera.  And the witness said:  31  32 "A     I mentioned the houses.  33 THE COURT:  Yes?  34 A     Yeah.  The —  35 THE COURT:  His was not one of those houses?  36 A     In one of them, Ken was in the Gwis Gyen  37 house.  38 THE COURT:  He is one of the wings of Gwis Gyen  39 house?  40 A     Yes, yes.  41 THE COURT:  But not one of the 5 brothers?  42 A     Well, I mentioned the house.  That's why.  43 THE COURT:  What I want to find out is, I am  44 having some difficulty in this regard to  45 know whether the 5 brothers are the  46 chiefs of five houses?  47 A     Yes. 8426  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 THE COURT:  Or the 5 brothers are wings of the  2 chief of a single house?  3 A     Well, I just mentioned the name of the  4 house.  There is Wiigyet, Gwis gyen,  5 Xsgogimlaxha, Guxsan and Hanamuxw.  6 THE COURT:  So Ken Harris is not one of the 5  7 brothers?  8 A     No, but he is member in Gwis gyen house  9 house.  10 THE COURT:  Yes, thank you.  11 MR. PLANT:  12 Q     He is a chief in Gwis Gyen house?  13 A     Yes, yes, yes.  14 Q     And I suggest to you that he has his own  15 house?  16 A     No, no.  17 Q     You deny that?  18 A     No.  19 Q     I suggest to you that in your lifetime,  20 there was a disagreement about who should  21 sit in the seat at the Feast Hall that Gwis  22 Gyen now sits in?  23 A     Well, I can't answer you.  24 Q     Why can't you answer me?  25 A     Well, that's happened before long time and  26 we're not supposed to bring it up.  They  27 already time settled it.  28 Q     That's a part of Gitksan law, isn't it?  29 A     Yes.  30 Q     When you settle a dispute, you are not  31 supposed to talk about it anymore; right?  32 A     Yes.  33 Q     But there was a dispute?  34 A     Um-hum, yes.  35 Q     The dispute was over who should sit in that  36 seat at the Feast Hall?  37 A     Gwis Gyen is.  38 Q     And Gwis Gyen sits there now?  39 A     Yes.  40 Q     Ken Harris —  41 A     Ken lives in Prince Rupert and Gwis Gyen  42 always attended the Feast.  That's why that  43 in that place.  44 Q     And Ken Harris went off to live in Prince  45 Rupert?  46 A     Yes.  47 Q     And so the other chiefs in Kitsegukla didn't 8427  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 think that he should have a seat at the head  2 table; did they?  3 A     Well, that's -- I can't answer you.  Feel,  4 you know, I can't tell you.  5 Q     Well, do you know the answer to my question?  6 A     I know, but I can't tell it in front of the  7 people.  That's the Gitksan law.  8 Q     What happens in Gitksan law if you talk  9 about a dispute once it is settled?  10 A     Well, I am started to trouble again if I  11 talk to the -- in front of the people.  12 Q     It all flares up?  13 A     Yes.  14 Q     Is there a term in Gitksan for that law that  15 you have just described?  Is there a Gitksan  16 word for it?"  17  18 And then the next question and answer deals with that.  19 Now, you recall that evidence, did you not?  20 A   Yes.  I think I do, having gone through that.  21 Q   Yes.  And in fact, she has correctly described a state  22 of affairs which arose, a dispute between Ken Harris  23 and Stanley Williams?  24 A   I don't know whether she said there was a dispute  25 there.  26 Q   Well, there was one, wasn't there?  27 A   I don't know of one.  28 Q   Well, was this all news to you as you were sitting  29 there, what she was talking about?  30 A   No.  As I recall -- as I understand, the question was  31 if Ken Harris was going to live in Prince Rupert,  32 whether he could take the name Haxbagwootxw.  I don't  33 know that there was a dispute about that.  34 Q   Well, there was a dispute as to who was going to be  35 Haxbagwootxw, was there not?  36 A   I don't know that.  37 Q   Well, is it not a fact that Gwis Gyen occupies the  38 seat of Haxbagwootxw in the feast hall while Ken  39 Harris holds the name?  40 A   I don't know that either, and I don't think that you  41 can take that from this.  42 Q   Well, I'm asking you if you know that?  43 A   No.  I don't know that.  44 Q   Well, Mrs. Ryan went on to say at page 1368, line 36:  45  46 "Q    But you are not allowed to talk about Ken  47 Harris and Stanley Williams? 342?  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A     No, against the law."  2  3 Now, does -- "against the Gitksan law"  means there  4 was a dispute, wasn't there?  5 A   I'm not aware of that.  6 Q   You're not aware of?  7 A   I'm not aware of the dispute that you're discussing.  8 What I'm aware of was the discussion was around the  9 fact that Ken Harris would be living in Prince Rupert  10 with the name.  I don't know of the area that you're  11 talking about.  12 Q   Well, I'm not talking about any area, I'm talking  13 about what Mrs. Ryan was talking about.  And she was  14 saying it's against Gitksan law to talk about a  15 dispute once it is settled.  Is that Gitksan law, to  16 your knowledge?  17 A   I can't say.  18 Q   You don't know?  19 A   No.  20 Q   When you heard her, however, say that it is against  21 Gitksan law to talk about a dispute once it is  22 settled, you knew she was talking about a dispute  23 between Ken Harris and Stanley Williams, didn't you?  24 A   I'm not aware of the dispute that you're talking  25 about.  What I'm aware of is what I've just explained  26 is that the discussion that went on in the house was  27 that Ken would be going to Prince Rupert and would  28 have the name, but I'm not aware of the issue as you  29 present it.  30 Q   Well, I'm not presenting any issue, Mr. Sterritt, I'm  31 simply taking Mrs. Ryan's evidence.  My question to  32 you was that when Mrs. Ryan said it is against Gitksan  33 law to talk about a dispute that is settled, she was  34 talking about a dispute between Ken Harris and Stanley  35 Williams, wasn't she?  36 A   I'm not aware of the dispute, I am not -- and I don't  37 know to what extent that's what she's discussing there  38 or what I've just mentioned.  I can't say that, I  3 9 don't know.  40 Q   Well, Mr. Sterritt, was it news to you when you heard  41 Mrs. Ryan say "I can't talk about a dispute that is  42 settled between Stanley Williams and Ken Harris", or  43 had you heard -- did you have any knowledge of a  44 dispute between those two?  45 A   The only knowledge that I had was that -- was that Ken  4 6 Harris, when the name -- when he took the name there  47              was some concern that he would be living in Prince 8429  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Rupert, and then he proceeded to get that.  Ken Harris  2 has also told me that he respects Stanley Williams  3 very highly and that Stanley would speak.  4 Q   Yes?  And when Mrs. Ryan said that Stanley Williams  5 was the chief in that house, that accorded with your  6 understanding, did it?  7 A  Well, I -- it was -- I was not aware of the  8 relationship between Gwis Gyen and Haxbagwootxw, to  9 what degree each related to the other, and Stanley has  10 spoken to that in evidence, he clarified that, and I  11 think that to a certain extent Olive was clarifying  12 that, but I myself was not aware of just what that  13 relationship was and how they related to each other.  14 Q   And when Mrs. Ryan said at page 1365 in answer to the  15 question "Does Haxbagwootxw have his own house", and  16 she replied "No", was that in accordance with your  17 understanding?  18 A  Well, she also says here that -- that Gwis Gyen and  19 Haxbagwootxw are in the same house, and I understand  20 that Gwis Gyen and Haxbagwootx are closely related, so  21 that's my understanding.  22 Q   Well, yes.  I don't think there's any question about  23 them being in the same house, Mr. Sterritt, the  24 question that was put to Mrs. Ryan was does  25 Haxbagwootxw have his own house, and her answer was  26 no.  Now, was that news to you?  27 A   I don't recall whether it was news to me at that time.  28 At some point I became aware of the relationship  29 between Gwis Gyen and Haxbagwootxw at the house, but  30 certainly earlier I was not aware of the relationship,  31 I was not as clear about that relationship.  32 Q   Well, Mr. Sterritt, the -- at one time was it not your  33 understanding that there was one house by the name of  34 Haxbagwootxw, that that was the house name; is that  35 your understanding at one time?  36 A   That was my understanding at one time, yes.  37 Q   And Gwis Gyen was a name in that house?  38 A  A hereditary chief in that house.  39 Q   In that house, right.  And on October 23rd, 1984, as  40 we've discussed before, Gwis Gyen spoke for the house  41 of Haxbagwootxw?  42 A   Yes.  And Ken Harris respected Stanley and -- but at  43 that time I still wasn't clear myself as to the  44 relationship between Gwis Gyen and Haxbagwootxw.  45 Q   Yes?  46 A  And that was worked out over time thereafter.  47 Q   Right.  The position, however, in October of 1984 3430  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  which you say everybody accepted was that Gwis Gyen, a  name in the house of Haxbagwootxw, spoke for  Haxbagwootxw and the people of that house?  A   That's how the Statement of Claim was framed at that  time.  Q   And that's the way you understood it at the time, was  it not?  A   It's not necessarily.  There were other people  drafting the Statement of Claim.  Q   Well, yes.  But I'm talking about your understanding  of that last question.  Was that your understanding,  is that Stanley Williams was speaking for the house of  Haxbagwootxw?  A   Yes.  GOLDIE:  Yes, all right.  And —  COURT:  Sorry.  Does that mean he was only speaking for that  house?  GOLDIE:  At that time, my Lord.  COURT:  At that time he wasn't speaking for another house of  Gwis Gyen?  GOLDIE:  Well, that's what I'm going to be coming to.  COURT:  All right.  GOLDIE:  But paragraph 9 of the Statement of Claim as  drafted --  COURT:  Yes.  GOLDIE:  Which is appended to document number 1 is what I've  been referring to.  And your lordship will see the way  in which it is drafted:  "The plaintiff, Gwis Gyen, is a hereditary chief of  the house of Haxbagwootxw and is bringing this  action on behalf of himself and the members of  that house."  Now, when Exhibit 102 was prepared from the  information that that you and Glen Williams gave from  Marvin George, there was two territories under  23-G-29, I believe it is, grouped under Haxbagwootxw  as the chief and Gwis Gyen and Yal as the sub-chiefs,  is that right?  RUSH:  Maybe the witness should examine Exhibit 102.  GOLDIE:  If you would like to look at Exhibit 102, please do  so.  COURT:  What's the number?  GOLDIE:  29, my lord.  Under the chiefs.  COURT:  Yes.  GOLDIE:  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  MR.  16  THE  17  18  MR.  19  THE  20  21  MR.  22  THE  23  MR.  24  25  THE  26  MR.  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  MR.  42  MR.  43  44  THE  45  MR.  46  THE  47  MR. 8431  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   And the clan is Fireweed and the village is  2 Gitsigukla?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   Now, the map 9-A there are still two territories, but  5 one is allotted to Haxbagwootxw and the other to Gwis  6 Gyen, is that right?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   The smaller to Haxbagwootx and the larger to Gwis  9 Gyen?  10 A   Yes.  11 MR. GOLDIE:  Is that consistent with your knowledge when you  12 were examined for discovery in March of 1987, and to  13 assist you in answering that I'm going to refer you to  14 volume 5 of your discovery, page 573, question --  15 THE COURT:  Sorry?  16 MR. GOLDIE:  Question 2303 to 2305.  17 MR. RUSH:  What volume, please?  18 MR. GOLDIE:  19 Q   5.  Now, my lord, this discovery is the resumption of  20 Mr. Sterritt's discovery which had begun in February,  21 and I'm putting to him certain questions which were  22 either objected to or which he didn't answer in  23 February:  24  25 "2303 Q Then at page 250 of the February 26th  26 transcript there is a discussion of  27 the territory of two Houses at  28 question 1293.  And it was answered  29 with these words:  30 'I have a general idea which is  31 Gwis Gyen's between and which is  32 Hax Bagwootxw's and which is Yal's.'  33 Question:  'That idea, is it  34 reflected on this map?'.  35 'That idea, or concept, is not  36 reflected on this map.  It is a  37 draft map for certain purposes for  38 the lawyers.'  Question:  'Is it  39 reflected in any map'?  Answer:  4 0 'I don't know, what kind of map do  41 you mean?'"  And so on. Question  42 1297: 'Any map?'  'Yes.  There are  43 some depictions, there is some maps  44 that show Hax Bagwootxw's land and  45 where Gwis Gyen goes, but then each  46 goes to the other.'  And I would like  47 to have that produced, please.  Is 8432  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 there a map that corresponds or  2 answers that question?  3 MR. GRANT:  Mr. Sterritt requested to look  4 at the Statement of Claim."  5  6 And the Statement of Claim is shown to the witness:  7  8 "A      Okay, Gwis Gyen is in the House  9 of Hax Bagwootxw and there will be a  10 map that shows Hax Bagwootxw's land.  11 There are, you will find in my  12 notebooks indication of what areas  13 Gwis Gyen might have been responsible  14 for under Hax Bagwootxw and they  15 appear in there.  I don't have any  16 other separate indication, but you  17 will see references to that in there.  18 MR. GOLDIE:  19 2304  Q      You are telling me there is not a map  20 which shows those territories --  21 A      There are no --  22 2305  Q       -- at the present time?  23 A      There are no separate territories for  24 Hax Bagwootxw or Gwis Gyen.  They are  25 the same, but Gwis Gyen goes to  26 different parts of Hax Bagwootxw's  27 territory."  28  29 Do you remember being asked those questions?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   Did you give those answers?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Are those answers true?  34 A  At the time the -- it wasn't clear to me and it was  35 clarified later by Stanley.  36 Q   That's Stanley Williams?  37 A   Yes, Stanley.  38 Q   Gwis Gyen?  39 A   Gwis Gyen.  40 Q   Yes?  41 A  And -- but at the time it wasn't clear to me, and that  42 was some of the difficulty that I was having there.  43 Q   Well, the question I put to you was on March the 26th  44 what is now shown on map 9-A -- I'm sorry, I'll  45 reframe my question.  What is now shown on map 9-A is  46 inconsistent with your understanding as it was on  47 March the 26th, 1987? 8433  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   It wasn't clear to me in March of 1987 how the two  2 houses -- or pardon me, how the two chiefs dealt with  3 those two pieces of territory, and Stanley  4 subsequently made it clear, and that is reflected on  5 map 9-A, and he also spoke to that in evidence.  6 Q   Yeah.  Mr. Sterritt, there wasn't any doubt in your  7 mind on March the 26th, you said, and I quote in  8 answer to question 2305:  9  10 "There are no separate territories for  11 Haxbagwootxw or Gwis Gyen."  12  13 That was you are belief at the time, wasn't it?  14 A  Well, Haxbagwootxw did go to the territory along  15 Sxuwii Gwanxs, S-X-U-W-I-I space G-W-A-N-X-S, but he  16 was -- but the area near the 7 sisters is the area  17 that he was responsible for, and Gwis Gyen and  18 Niitamlaxooks is responsible for the territory at --  19 at Sxuwii Gwanxs, but that doesn't mean that  20 Haxbagwootxw did not go or hasn't gone to the other  21 territory.  22 Q   I don't think that was either my question or your  23 answer, Mr. Sterritt, where people go to.  The  24 question was was there a separate territory, and the  25 answer was there are no separate territories for Gwis  26 Gyen.  Now, that was your belief in March 26th, 1987,  2 7 wasn't it?  28 A   I wasn't very clear on that at the time, but if that's  29 what I said, then I was wrong about that.  30 Q   All right.  So it wasn't a matter of what happened  31 after March the 26th, 1987 to make you change your  32 mind, it was what happened which clarified something  33 you weren't sure about?  34 A   Yes.  It was -- I wasn't clear about that at the time,  35 that's true.  36 Q   Um-hum.  Despite the nature of your answer?  37 A   I just said I wasn't clear about that at the time.  38 MR. GOLDIE:  And my question is despite the nature of your  39 answer  to question 2305?  40 MR. RUSH:  What is the question?  Despite the nature of your  41 answer?  42 MR. GOLDIE: Yes.  That's the question.  43 MR. RUSH:  Well, I certainly find that ambiguous, I don't know  44 what the witness finds, but I think there's been an  45 answer to the question.  46 THE COURT:  I think Mr. Goldie has indulged in some shorthand  47 which perhaps if he wants to pursue it he can do so 8434  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 after taking a short adjournment.  Do counsel want to  2 stay a few minutes extra this afternoon to make up the  3 time I lost?  4 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm in your lordship's hands.  5 MR. RUSH:  So am I, whatever your lordship pleases.  6 THE COURT:  All right.  We'll take a short adjournment.  We'll  7 sit a few minutes after.  8  9 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 2:05)  10  11 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  12 a true and accurate transcript of the  13 proceedings herein transcribed to the  14 best of my skill and ability  15  16  17  18    19 Graham D. Parker  20 Official Reporter  21 United Reporting Service Ltd.  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  3435 8435  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 3:15 p.m.)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  6 Q   My lord.  7 Mr. Sterritt, Exhibit 5, which is right behind  8 you, is consistent with the statement that you made to  9 me in March on your examination for discovery, is it  10 not, March of 1987?  11 A   I don't know.  12 Q   Well, perhaps you would be good enough to look at it.  13 THE COURT:  You mean with respect to these two?  14 MR. GOLDIE:  15 Q   With respect to these houses, yes.  My understanding  16 is that it shows two territories in the name of Hax  17 bagwootxw?  18 A   Yes, it does.  19 Q   And no territories in the name of Gwis gyen?  2 0 A   No.  21 Q   And that's consistent, is it not, with the statement  22 that you made to me in your examination for discovery?  23 MR. GRANT:  What number was that?  24 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, I just asked him if it was consistent with  25 what he told me on his examination for discovery.  I  26 haven't referred him to any question yet.  27 THE COURT:  But you are really directing the witness' attention  28 to question 2305, are you not?  29 MR. GOLDIE:  30 Q   Yes, that's what we were discussing earlier, my lord.  31 A   Yes.  That Gwis gyen and Hax bagwootxw are in the same  32 house and could go to each other's territories.  33 Q   "And had no separate territories."  That completes  34 your answer, does it not?  35 A   Yes, that's what I said there.  36 Q   Yeah.  And map 9-A is inconsistent with that evidence,  37 and represents a change from Exhibit 5?  38 A   Only to the extent that it shows where one chief in  39 the house of which two chiefs are the -- are members,  40 that one chief is responsible for another one of those  41 territories.  42 Q   That's all it shows?  43 A   You are talking about 9-A?  44 Q   Yes.  45 A   That Gwis gyen and Niitamlaxooks are responsible for  46 the territory at Xsu'wii gwanxs, X-S-U-W-I-I space  47 G-W-A-N-X-S, and that Hax bagwootxw is responsible for 8436  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 the territory at Hlihl Guuhl Sganist, that's H-L-I-H-L  2 space G-U-U-H-L space S-G-A-N-I-S-T.  That's near  3 Seven Sisters.  4 Q   You were present when Mr. Stanley Williams gave his  5 evidence on commission?  6 A   Yes, I was.  7 Q   When was that?  8 A   It was in -- in the spring of 1988.  9 Q   And Mr. Williams' evidence is consistent with map 9-A  10 and inconsistent with Exhibit 5; is that correct?  11 A  Well, I don't recall what his evidence was, but I  12 believe he spoke to those territories, yes.  13 Q   Well, map 9-A is -- conforms to his evidence, does it  14 not; is that your understanding?  15 A  Well, map 9-A is his evidence.  He -- yes, he signed  16 an affidavit on those territories.  17 Q   Yes.  Mr. Williams is, according to the information we  18 have at present, was your most important -- or more  19 accurately, the informant you interviewed most often?  20 A   I don't know whether he is or not.  He -- I certainly  21 spent a lot of time with Stanley.  22 Q   Yes.  23 A   But whether he is the one that I interviewed most  24 often, I am not sure.  25 Q   Well, I made a note of -- from the material that we  26 have so far, and your notes indicate two interviews in  27 1980, five in 1982, four in 1983, one in 1984, four in  28 1985, seven in 1986 and 37 in 1987, and seven in 1988.  29 Is -- I'm not asking you to agree to the numbers, of  30 course, but is that -- is that the sort of degree to  31 which you were relying upon Mr. Williams?  32 A   Yes.  And I relied on other hereditary chiefs as well,  33 not necessarily from those areas, from other areas.  34 Q   Yes.  35 A   To quite a degree as well.  36 Q   Well, Mr. Sterritt, is it -- is it correct to say that  37 map 9-A was prepared to reflect Mr. Williams'  38 evidence?  I think you've just said that?  39 A   No, I don't think I said that.  40 Q   I shouldn't say map 9-A.  Map 9-A in the respect of  41 the territories that we are talking about?  42 A  Map 9-A, many people asked Stanley Williams to do  43 his -- their affidavits, and map 9-A is a reflection  44 of the affidavits done by Stanley Williams.  45 Q   Yes.  But I'm now talking only about the territories  46 that we have been talking about, namely those which  47 are claimed by Hax bagwootxw and Gwis gyen, and it 8437  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 was -- as to those territories, those two territories,  2 their location and their ownership reflect Mr. Stanley  3 Williams' evidence?  4 A   Through his affidavits and through his statements, to  5 the best of my recollection.  6 Q   Yes.  And you can't tell us who your informant was  7 with respect to the evidence you gave in March of  8 1987, or the evidence that is reflected on Exhibit 5?  9 A   I think that some of that was based on my  10 understanding of the house, and I did not appreciate  11 the -- at that time, the relationship between Gwis  12 gyen and Hax bagwootxw.  And -- but to that time,  13 Stanley had been explaining a lot of information to  14 me, but in terms of the designation of Hax bagwootxw,  15 I think that that -- I think that that was my -- based  16 on my understanding at the time.  17 Q   Yeah.  But you can't recall who was your informant  18 that led you to the conclusion that there are no  19 separate territories for Hax bagwootxw or Gwis gyen,  20 they are the same?  21 A  Well, as members of the same house, the territory at  22 Xsu'wii gwanxs, they are in the same house.  One is  23 responsible for the other -- for one territory and the  24 other responsible for the other.  I -- you know,  25 that -- I don't think there is anything wrong with  26 that statement.  27 Q   No.  I asked you who your informant was?  28 A   For — okay.  29 Q   For the evidence that you gave in March of 1987, and  30 which, as far as I can make out, is reflected in  31 Exhibit 5, which shows no territory separately  32 identified for Gwis gyen?  33 A   I think that Stanley might have indicated to me at the  34 time that that area was Gwis gyen and Niitamlaxooks.  35 And under the -- because I was under the impression at  36 that time that Hax bagwootxw, that that was the house,  37 then I may have put the House of Hax bagwootxw on that  38 territory.  But I think that was my -- I did that.  39 Q   That would -- if that was wrong, that was an error on  40 your part?  41 A  Why yes, that -- yeah.  But it would be a misunder-  42 standing on my part, but I think that Stanley had told  43 me before that Gwis gyen and Niitamlaxooks went to  44 that territory.  He had brought to my attention as  45 well, I think prior to that, a will that also  46 indicated that, but I hadn't appreciated in either of  47 those -- I should mention more about that will.  It 8438  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 was, as I recall, it was introduced in the evidence of  2 Stanley Williams, but the will referred to the -- some  3 of the main place names within that territory.  It  4 referred also to Niitamlaxooks and to Gwis gyen and to  5 some of the other hereditary chiefs in that house, and  6 I think Stanley told me about that.  As far as I can  7 remember, the first draftings of that will were prior  8 to 1930.  They were in the 1920's before -- before  9 traplines were even considered.  10 The -- but as best as I can recall it, Stanley had  11 provided that information, but I think that because of  12 the relationship, I didn't appreciate the extent to  13 which Gwis gyen -- or that it was known as the House  14 of Gwis gyen.  I had only known about the House of Hax  15 bagwootxw, and that wasn't part of the discussions.  16 Q   In any event, you accepted Mr. Stanley Williams'  17 latest evidence as on his commission and as sworn to  18 him on his affidavit, and you feel that is the correct  19 evidence; is that right?  20 A   I don't -- Stanley Williams has spoken to that, I  21 think that that evidence is fine, I don't -- it's not  22 for me to comment on that.  The clarification of the  23 House of Gwis gyen and the relationship with Hax  24 bagwootxw went on with Stanley and Olive and he was  25 the one signing the affidavit.  I have no -- that's  26 not for me to say.  27 Q   Is the Olive you refer to, Olive Ryan?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Well, if she had -- if her evidence had been accepted,  30 Hax bagwootxw's name wouldn't appear at all, would it?  31 A   No, I don't think that's true.  32 Q   Well, did I not read you from page 1366 of Volume 21,  33 these questions and answers:  34  35 Q  "He, (that is to say, Ken Harris) is  36 a chief in Gwis gyen House?  37 A  Yes, yes, yes.  38 Q  And I suggest to you that he has his own  39 House?  40 A  No, no.  41 Q  You deny that?  42 A  No."  43  44 You were sitting there.  Did you understand her  45 to be telling his lordship that Hax bagwootx did not  46 have his own house?  47 A   She said that he is in the House of Gwis gyen. 3439  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  9  10  11  Q  12  13  14  A  15  16  Q  17  18  MR. RUSH:  19  THE COURT  20  21  22  23  MR. GOLDI  24  Q  25  26  27  28  A  29  Q  30  31  A  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  Yes.  So he doesn't have a house of his own name;  isn't that what her evidence was?  Well, that's what Olive said, but in terms --  Yeah?  That's not speaking to the territory.  There is a  territory identified at Hlihl Guuhl Sganist H-L-I-H-L  space G-U-U-H-L space S-G-A-N-I-S-T, that is  identified with Hax bagwootxw, and he is in the House  of Gwis gyen, they are both in the same house, there  is no reason why his name shouldn't be there.  Yeah.  The -- the evidence of Mrs. Ryan is exactly the  opposite of a pleading in the statement of claim as it  was in October 1984 and as it is today?  I can't speak for that.  I would have to look at  those.  Well, I'll place before you the amended statement of  claim.  Are these matters for argument, my lord?  :  Well, no.  It would be if they weren't leading to  another line of cross-examination, but I can assume  that counsel is going to pursue it further and he  should have permission to argue as well.  r:  Well, I'm drawing to your attention the statement of  claim dated May the 11th, 1987.  And would you not  agree with me that paragraph 9 alleges that Gwis gyen  is a hereditary chief in the House of Hax bagwootxw?  Yes, that's what that says.  And didn't Mrs. Ryan say that it's just the other way  around?  What did she say?  Well, I think Mr. Grant has placed a transcript in  front of you, it's page 1366 of Volume 21, line 23?  Yes.  Well, I don't have any difficulty with that.  I  think that we are talking about the same house, they  are both in the same house.  But Mrs. Ryan says that Ken Harris doesn't have a  house, that he is a chief in the house of Stanley  Williams; isn't that what she is saying?  Yes, that's what she is saying.  All right.  And this case has alleged from October  1984, that Gwis gyen, Stanley Williams, on behalf of  the House of Hax bagwootxw is making these claims?  Yes.  Now, it's a very simple point, is it not, Mr.  Sterritt, that you heard the evidence of Mrs. Ryan and  you decided to ignore it? 8440  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   On what basis?  2 Q   With respect to the statement she made about the  3 houses?  4 A   Yes.  But on what basis?  Be more clear about that.  5 Q   Well, I've just finished reading you -- if you don't  6 understand the question, please say so?  7 A   It's not up to me to define how that -- how that  8 should read.  Well, I'm not clear on what you are  9 saying there.  10 Q   All right.  Well I'll leave that.  11 Is there a chief's name in -- well first, tell me  12 this:  Is there a house in the Eagle clan by the name  13 of Giila'wa?  14 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie, is this a new subject?  15 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  Well —  16 THE COURT:  Does it relate to what —  17 MR. GOLDIE:  But not directly.  18 THE COURT:  Well, before you go on, could I ask Mr. Sterritt,  19 where in all this does Yal fit?  20 THE WITNESS:  Yal has a separate house as I understand it.  21 THE COURT:  On the code they are lumped together.  22 THE WITNESS:  On that code.  2 3 THE COURT:  Yes.  24 THE WITNESS:  But subsequent to that, it was — it was  25 determined that Yal had a separate house and separate  26 territory.  27 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  Sorry, Mr. Goldie.  28 MR. RUSH:  Separate plaintiff under paragraph 35 in the most  29 recent statement of claim.  30 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Paragraph 25?  31 MR. RUSH:  Thirty-five, my lord  32 MR. GOLDIE:  I was going to ask you if there is a house of the  33 Eagle clan having the name of Giila'wa, G-I-I-L-A,  34 W —  35 THE COURT:  Sorry, G-I-I-L-A?  36 MR. GOLDIE:  That's what I think it is, my lord.  37 THE COURT:  All right.  38 MR. GOLDIE:  39 Q   Separate word, W-E or 0.  Giila'wa, G-I-I-L-A,  40 separate word, W-O?  41 A   I don't know whether there is or not.  42 Q   Is that a -- is that the name of a chief?  43 A   Giila'wa?  44 Q   Yes?  45 A   Yes, there is a person named Giila'wa.  46 Q   Is he a plaintiff in this action?  47 A   I'm not sure.  I don't -- I don't recall from the 8441  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A   I  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  16  17  18  A  19  20  21  MR.  GOLDIE  22  MR.  RUSH:  23  MR.  GOLDIE  24  MR.  RUSH:  25  MR.  GOLDIE  26  Q  27  28  ]  29  30  A  31  Q  32  i  33  34  A  35  Q  36  37  38  39  A  40  41  42  43  44  Q  45  46  47  A  pleadings.  Do you recall Mr. Williams telling you that Giila'wa  is empty now?  No, I don't.  All right.  Tell me, Mr. Sterritt, do you know whether  the arrangement between Hax bagwootxw and Gwis gyen is  in accordance with Gitksan law?  I don't know.  Is Mr. Harris the author of a book of myths entitled  Visitors Who Never Left?  Mr. Ken Harris?  Yes?  Yes, I understand he is.  Now, we discussed earlier the territory of Gitludahl,  and the relationship of Woosimlaxha, and Gutginuxw.  Perhaps you would be good enough to spell those to the  reporter?  Gitludahl is G-I-T-L-U-D-A-H-L, Woosimlaxha is — I'm  not sure whether -- maybe you can get that off the  list.  :  It's Mr. Victor Mowatt.  It's number 83 on the list, my lord.  :  And the number for Gutginuxw?  It's 14.  And the -- we established at the time the statement of  claim was issued in October of 1984, neither Victor  Mowatt nor Billy Morrison were plaintiffs.  I think  that's so, is it not, Mr. Sterritt?  I don't recall.  And the statement of claim was amended to add  Woosimlaxha for himself and for Gutginuxw, each  claiming territory?  I don't recall.  I would have to see it.  Well, subject to checking, and I'll give you the  statement of claim in a minute, these two on Exhibit  102 under the code are hereditary chiefs in the House  of Gitludahl?  No, I don't think it's necessarily saying that they  are hereditary chiefs under Gitludahl.  It's listing a  number of names there that are -- that are connected  with the name of Gitludahl, but I don't know that it's  saying that they are under them.  Well, we've discussed this before, and I think the  neutral words seem to be "associated".  They are -- on  Exhibit 102 they are associated with Gitludahl?  Yes. 8442  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A   '  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  i  20  A  21  MR.  GOLDIE  22  1  23  24  THE  COURT:  25  MR.  GOLDIE  26  THE  COURT:  27  MR.  GOLDIE  28  THE  COURT:  29  MR.  GOLDIE  30  Q  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  And Gitludahl is the first name?  Yes, it is .  As it now stands, in map 9-A, each claims separate  territory; is that correct?  Well, I don't have map 9-A here.  Well, maybe Miss Sigurdson could help you.  Yes.  Now, I referred to the amended pleadings, and my lord,  the pleading that was introduced in 1986 as paragraph  49 reads:  "The plaintiff, Woosimlaxha, is the hereditary  Chief of the House of Woosimlaxha, and is bringing  this action on behalf of himself and the members  of the House of Gutginuxw."  But the map 9-A has territory in respect of --  of each, does it not, both the Gutginuxw and  Woosimlaxha?  Yes.  :  Now, I'm going to refer you to your examination for  discovery on March the 27th.  Volume 6, my lord, page  670.  Sorry, what is that reference again?  :  Volume 6.  This is of the witness' discovery?  :  This is -- pardon me, my lord?  Discovery?  Yes.  Question 2621 to 2626:  2621 Q "Well, is there a separate House known as  Woosimlaxha of which Victor Mowatt is the  hereditary Chief at this time?  A At this time I think, speaking for  myself, I think it's up to Woosimlaxha  and Gutginuxw to comment, but giving my  own opinion at this point they consider  there to be one House; the House of  Gutginuxw.  2622 Q  Well, does Victor Mowatt sue as the head  of that House?  A  Yes, he does.  2623 Q And therefore is there not, at this time,  a separate House known as Woosimlaxha?  A  No.  2624 Q  Thank you.  And when did this occur? 8443  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A  The discussion amongst the family?  2 2625  Q  Yes.  3 A  I don't want to -- I can't give you an  4 exact date, but it's within the past, I  5 think, in the fall of '85, that the  6 family met and discussed that.  7 2626  Q  And therefore we are to take it that  8 there are no members of the House of  9 Woosimlaxha, they are all members of the  10 House of Gutginuxw?  11 A  Yes."  12  13 Now, today there appear to be -- "today", by that  14 I mean map 9-A, there appear to be two separate  15 houses, each claiming separate and distinct  16 territories.  Can you explain that for me, please?  17 A  Well, what part of that do you want?  18 Q   Well, why are there two separate territories when the  19 evidence that you gave me in March of 1987, is that  20 there are no members of the House of Woosimlaxha?  21 A   That was my understanding at the time, but that's --  22 that wasn't -- that wasn't right.  23 Q   Well, what led you to change your mind then?  24 A  Well, I can't say that I changed my mind or that it  25 was -- it was -- if I remember right, Abel Brown  26 clarified that, but I don't recall exactly.  27 Q   Well, that was a family arrangement?  28 A   How do you mean "a family arrangement"?  29 Q   Well, I understood that there is an arrangement made  30 as amongst the family which -- of these people, which  31 led to first Victor Mowatt claiming independently of  32 Gitludahl, and finally, there appear to be two  33 separate territories in respect of which Victor Mowatt  34 and Billy Morrison each seeks a declaration that he is  35 entitled to that property?  36 A   I don't know.  I can't say that that was a family  37 arrangement, I don't know.  38 Q   Well, how did it come about?  39 A   How did what come about?  40 Q   That the progression that I've just given you, we  41 start off with Gitludahl claiming territory in his own  42 right, we have Victor Mowatt and Billy Morrison  43 claiming parts of that territory in each in his own  44 name, and your evidence is that there are no members  45 of the House of Woosimlaxha, Victor Mowatt's house?  46 A  Well, I was wrong about that.  47 Q   I see.  Well, that's what I'm trying to get at.  What 8444  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 is the source of the information that led you to  2 change your mind?  3 A   I believe that Abel Brown, possibly Pete Muldoe and  4 Steve Robinson explained the relationships there, but  5 I don't recall exactly.  6 Q   All right.  Let me go onto another -- I'm now going to  7 talk about the north-east corner of the claims  8 territory, and I suggest that on Exhibit 102, the  9 territory south of Thutade Lake was claimed by  10 Kathleen Wale or Gwoimt, G-W-O-I-M-T.  Would you  11 confirm that, please?  12 THE COURT:  G-O-A-N-H?  13 MR. GOLDIE:  G-W-O-I-N-T, my lord.  14 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Excuse me, Wale is spelt W-H-A?  15 MR. GOLDIE:  W-A-L-E, and Kathleen is, I believe, spelt with a  16 K.  17 THE COURT:  Thank you.  18 A   That's what appears on the draft map 102, yes.  19 MR. GOLDIE:  20 Q   Yes.  That's a very large area, is it not --  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   -- in the north-east corner?  Perhaps you could just  23 indicate to his lordship the area that we are talking  24 about?  25 A   This area.  Thutade Lake is right here, and the Bear  26 Lake is down in here, this is the area we are talking  27 about.  28 Q   All right, thank you.  And the -- that is shown as  29 within the claims area on the external boundary which  30 was part of -- which is marked Exhibit 101 here.  No,  31 101, my lord, is the 1986 overlay map five, which is  32 the Wet'suwet'en territories affected by the Carrier  33 Sikanni overlap, but I'm referring to the -- it has on  34 it the external boundaries, doesn't it?  35 A  Which does?  36 Q   Exhibit 101, the overlay map five?  37 THE COURT:  Is that Exhibit 101 that you looked at a moment ago?  38 THE WITNESS:  That, as I understand it, that's 102.  39 MR. GOLDIE:  40 Q   102 is what is on the base map now; is that right?  41 A   Yes, overlay map four.  42 Q   And overlay map five indicates that the external  43 boundary is unchanged in 1986?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And to your knowledge, was that property still being  46 claimed by Kathleen Wale at that time?  47 A   That was a draft map, it -- it was a -- to be 8445  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 reviewed.  It was a first representation, or it was a  2 representation but not necessarily a final map.  3 Q   Well, you say that of both Exhibits 101 and 102, do  4 you?  101 is the -- is the coded map which, according  5 to the information --  6 MR. RUSH:  That's 102.  7 MR. GOLDIE:  8 Q   Sorry.  102 is the coded map said to be dated October  9 17th, 1985.  101 is the Carrier Sikanni map which is  10 said to be dated April 1986.  And there had been no  11 change in the allegation that that territory was  12 claimed by Kathleen Wale, had there?  13 A  Well, it was simply drawn from the same base map.  14 Q   Yes.  But the allegation is that Kathleen Wale was the  15 person who claimed that territory.  I shouldn't say  16 allegation, but what is depicted on those two maps is  17 that Kathleen Wale is the person who is claiming that  18 territory?  19 A  Actually, no, that's not right.  Tsabux and Tsiwuus  20 are hereditary chiefs and they are mentioned along  21 with the name of Kathleen Wale, Gwoimt, G-W-O-I-M-T,  22 T-S-A-B-U-X, and Tsiwuus is T-S-I-W-U-U-S.  23 THE COURT: T-S-I?  24 THE WITNESS:  W-U-U-S.  2 5 THE COURT:  Thank you.  26 MR. GOLDIE:  27 Q   They are either sub-chiefs or associated with Gwoimt?  28 A  Well, they were on that draft coded map.  I don't --  29 Q   Yes, that's what I —  30 MR. RUSH:  Maybe he should finish.  31 MR. GOLDIE:  32 Q   By all means.  33 A   On that draft coded map they are, but I'm not sure how  34 the pleadings read right now.  I would have to have a  35 look at them.  36 Q   I see.  Well, I'll refer you to the pleadings as they  37 were in October 1983 -- '84, I'm sorry, as in the  38 original statement of claim, and that's under --  39 attached to the affidavit under tab 1 of the book, my  40 lord.  Paragraph 26, tab 1, page 4 of the statement of  41 claim attached to your affidavit?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And Exhibit 102 indicates that the territory that was  44 the subject matter of Kathleen Wale's claim is that  45 upper right-hand corner, north-east corner, and that  46 you indicated to his lordship; is that right?  47 A  Well, this is 1984, that's 1985. 8446  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  5  A  6  Q  7  8  9  10  A  11  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  19  A  20  Q  21  22  23  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  Q  33  34  35  A  36  37  38  39  Q  40  A  41  42  43  Q  44  45  46  A  47    I  MR. RUSH  Yes.  With the code it has along with it Tsiwuus and Tsabux.  Yes.  And they are not mentioned in the original  statement of claim, are they?  No, not that I can determine.  Now, when the northern boundary was moved south and  there was territory conceded to the Tahltan, that  territory claimed by Kathleen Wale as shown on Exhibit  102, was also removed from the claims area?  Well, I don't think you can connect that.  This is a  draft map.  Well, let's look at Exhibit 5.  Now, doesn't that  reflect the reduction in the northern boundary and the  removal of that north-east territory?  Only part of it.  Only the part that belongs to Nii  Kyap.  Tsabux appears here.  Well, Nii Kyap hasn't appeared so far, has he, on any  map we've looked at?  Not on the draft map, no.  No.  So all that I'm saying to you is that at the same  time as the northern boundary has moved south, a  substantial portion, if not all of what Kathleen Wale  is shown to claim on Exhibit 102, is also removed;  isn't that right?  But Kathleen Wale never claimed that.  That was  Gwoimt, Tsabux -- Gwoimt and Tsabux are -- sit  together at the feast, and at that time, Gwoimt was  representing the interests of Tsabux, but in fact, as  we moved along to the later statements of claim, then  Tsabux was identified as a separate house with  separate territory.  Well, I'll come back to my original question, but I --  something you said just now I want to pursue. What do  you mean "was identified"?  Well, when we did the first -- the first set of  plaintiffs, it was on the same basis as we had before,  was that Gwoimt would represent -- would also  represent Tsabux and Tsiwuus.  Because they were sub-chiefs in her house?  No, I can't say that we viewed them as sub-chiefs.  I'm not sure about that, the basis for that at the  time.  Well, they were linked together on the coded map, and  if they weren't sub-chiefs they are associated with  her?  Associated, yes.  I think it should just -- should be clarified that on 8447  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 the code map under five it's Gwoimt, Smaex, and  2 Tsiwuus and Tsabux is not there.  3 MR. GOLDIE:  4 Q   Thank you.  Can you explain that, Mr. Sterritt?  5 A   Yes.  Smaex, S-M-A-E-X, is a member of the House of  6 Tsabux and Tsiwuus.  7 Q   And represented by Gwoimt or --  8 A   In the action now?  9 Q   Yes?  10 A   No.  11 Q   In the action as it was instituted in October 1984?  12 A  Well, Smaex would have been under -- yes, would have  13 been within the -- represented in the action then by  14 Gwoimt.  15 Q   Yes.  As part of the House of Gwoimt?  16 A  Well, I'm not sure about that.  Not necessarily as  17 part of the house.  18 Q   All right.  Now, you say as things went along it was  19 identified that in some way this change -- there were  20 changes to be made, and I'm asking you, what do you  21 mean by "was identified"?  Is it information from  22 chiefs or deductions of your own or extrapolations or  23 as a result of your analysis, or who did the  24 identifying and what was the source of it?  25 A   I can't say.  There was a lot of discussions going on  26 between the lawyers and the plaintiffs as well, and  27 I'm not sure about that.  28 Q   Well, were you part of any of those discussions?  29 A   I don't recall that, whether I was or not.  30 Q   Did you receive any information which caused you to  31 come to the conclusion that any one of the people that  32 has been named had separate territories?  33 A   You mean in terms of Smaex, Tsabux or Tsiwuus?  34 Q   Yes.  35 A   Yes, I had information that Tsabux was in that area.  36 I believe that at one time the same person held both  37 names, that's a guy by the name of Plughat Tom, he is  38 also known as Blackhat Tom.  He held -- I believe he  39 held both Tsabux and Smaex, but I'm not sure about  40 that, but I think he held both names.  41 Q   He was somebody from Bear Lake?  42 A   He was Gitksan from Kisgegas and also was around Bear  43 Lake.  44 Q   Well, can you tell me who your informant was that led  45 you to the conclusion that one, two or three of these  46 associated chiefs with Kathleen Wale were entitled to  47 territory in their own name? 8448  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   I think -- I think there may have been discussions  2 directly with the lawyers on that.  I don't recall  3 that.  4 Q   Well, in any event, that territory reappears in map  5 9-A; is that correct.  6 MR. RUSH:  What territory?  7 MR. GOLDIE:  The territory that was removed in Exhibit 5.  8 MR. RUSH:  Well the witness has already said, has he not, that  9 only a portion of it was removed?  10 MR. GOLDIE:  11 Q   Well, the portion that was removed, reappears, doesn't  12 it?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   But this time the -- it's claimed in the name of David  15 Gunanoot, am I right?  16 A   That was always known as the territory of Nii Kyap.  17 The other thing is that I think maybe the reason that  18 that ended up being identified that way is that David  19 Gunanoot referred to Blackhat Tom as being his uncle.  20 And as I said, it was a draft map, I think if -- it  21 had not been reviewed with the chiefs, and if it had  22 been, I think David might have been angry about it.  23 Q   Well, Mr. Sterritt, you and Glen Williams or Mr. Glen  24 Williams gave information to Mr. Marvin George which  25 resulted in Exhibit 102, and that information resulted  26 in this territory immediately south of Thutade Lake  27 being attributed to Kathleen Wale?  28 A   No, no, no.  Not to -- not to the House of Gwoimt.  29 Q   Well, what —  30 A   Gwoimt was acting at that time on behalf of other  31 persons, that was the understanding, and later that  32 was clarified.  33 Q   Well, it was clarified by Gwoimt disappearing as  34 having any claim at all; isn't that right?  35 A   No, no.  I think Gwoimt has a claim within the  36 territory.  37 Q   Well, I'm talking about -- talking about the territory  38 that disappears and reappears?  39 A   It doesn't disappear.  I'm not sure what name, but  40 Tsabux appears in that area.  41 Q   Well Mr. —  42 A  And it's still there.  43 Q   Mr. Sterritt, the territory that disappears with  44 Exhibit 5 is the territory that is attributed to  45 Kathleen Wale in Exhibit 102, isn't it?  46 A   It's attributed there but it's not -- that is  47 connected with Tsabux. 8449  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Well, it may be, but his name doesn't appear on it,  2 does it?  3 A   Not at that time.  4 Q   No.  But in any event, can I have it from you that she  5 disappears and her two wings appear, Tsabux and  6 Tsiwuus?  7 A   I don't know them to be her wings.  8 Q   Well, the -- the chiefs that are associated with her  9 on Exhibit 102?  10 A   Yeah.  But they are not her wings.  11 Q   Well, whatever they happen to be.  Her associates;  12 isn't that right?  13 A   They are not her wings.  14 Q   Well, whatever they happen to be, Mr. Sterritt.  She  15 disappears, and south of her claim, or as part of it,  16 the two associated chiefs' names appear; isn't that  17 right?  18 A   Yes.  Tsabux appears in that area, yes.  19 Q   Yes.  Now, on what basis is she removed from that  20 territory?  21 A   Because the hereditary chiefs of the House of Tsabux  22 are in that area and they are there, they appear on  2 3 the map.  24 Q   Well -- but also appearing on the map of 9-A is Mr.  25 David Gunanoot where he didn't appear before?  26 A  Well, he did.  27 Q   Was Kathleen Wale acting for him too?  28 A   No, she wasn't.  I wasn't clear on the relationship  29 when David talked about his Uncle Tom -- Blackhat Tom,  30 I wasn't clear on that relationship.  And he refers to  31 him as being his uncle and he works in that area with  32 him.  33 Q   Well, Mr. Sterritt, what relationship has his uncle  34 got to Kathleen Wale?  35 A  Well, I explained to you already a number of times,  36 Mr. Goldie, that Gwoimt was the hereditary chief  37 identified on the first statement of claim as being  38 associated with Tsabux and Tsiwuus and Smaex.  39 Q   And she disappears?  40 A   She doesn't disappear.  They -- they are -- when we --  41 when the statement of claim -- when we attempt to  42 define the plaintiffs more clearly in relation to the  43 land, then she is identified with her territory and  44 Tsabux is identified with the territories that we were  45 referring to before.  46 Q   Isn't this a case of conflicting information being  47 given you? 8450  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   No, no, it's not.  2 Q   And you choosing information which you considered to  3 be more reliable?  4 A   No, no, it's not.  The -- a draft map was done, it  5 wasn't final, a lot of work was done in the meantime,  6 and we eventually sorted that out.  7 Q   All right.  I'll go on to another point.  8 THE COURT:  Before you do that, Mr. Goldie.  Which of the other  9 chiefs end up with specific territories on 9-A,  10 Tsabux?  11 THE WITNESS:  Tsabux, yes.  12 MR. GOLDIE:  And there is another one too, my lord.  13 MR. RUSH:  My lord, I think it might be useful if you had Mr.  14 Sterritt point out Tsabux --  15 THE COURT:  All right.  16 MR. RUSH:  — on 9-A.  17 THE COURT:  All right, please do.  Where is it?  18 MR. RUSH:  On 9-A.  19 MR. GOLDIE:  Let's start with 102 because that's the map I  20 started with.  21 THE COURT:  Is this 102?  22 MR. GOLDIE:  23 Q   That is 102, and would you just indicate the territory  24 that is attributed to the House of Gwoimt?  25 A   That's this one here.  2 6 Q   All right.  27 A  And then there is another one over on the Skeena.  28 Q   And what is the southern limit of that, what is shown  29 on Exhibit 102?  30 A  Very close to Bear Lake.  31 Q   All right.  Now perhaps you would go to 9-A.  32 A   Bear Lake is right in this area.  The Sustut River  33 runs through here, and this is the southern -- this is  34 the southern limit in this area.  Where is the --  35 where is 109?  Pardon me, 9-A?  This is the territory  36 of Tsabux right in here, and Bear Lake is right in  37 there.  38 THE COURT:  Smaex and the other one and Tsabux?  39 THE WITNESS:  That's the same thing, they are in that territory.  40 MR. GOLDIE:  41 Q   But would you agree with me, Mr. Sterritt, that what  42 was comprised in the house of Kathleen Wale in 102 is  43 now subdivided amongst Nii Kyap, Miluulak and Tsabux?  44 A   Tsabux, yes.  45 Q   Thank you.  And Kathleen Wale doesn't appear at all --  46 or Gwoimt doesn't appear at all?  47 A   No, not on there.  Farther down in the Skeena. 8451  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Well, I'm only referring to the territory that she  2 appears to have started out with.  3 A  Well, I just wanted to be clear about that.  4 Q   And you cannot identify for me the source of the  5 information that led to the subdivision of what was  6 originally attributed to her amongst three houses?  7 A   The -- be in the summer of 1985, we conducted a field  8 trip to that area, and the many geographic features  9 were identified including the area of Miluulak, or  10 the -- some features that were identified as  11 Miluulak's -- part of Miluulak's territory, the area  12 of Blackhat Tom and -- and some of the features within  13 the area of Nii Kyap.  And that was on the field trip  14 of the summer of 1985.  15 Q   And Exhibit 102 is dated October 17th, 1985?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Thank you.  18 A  And it's a draft map.  19 Q   Well, I want to direct your attention to the --  20 THE COURT:  Are you starting something new, Mr. Goldie?  21 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, my lord.  22 THE COURT:  Perhaps we will adjourn.  I just want to make a note  23 of that field trip in the summer of 1985?  24 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  25 THE COURT:  You said Exhibit 102 is dated?  26 MR. GOLDIE:  I said Exhibit 102.  That, my lord, is the map  27 which shows Kathleen Wale's territory at its fullest.  2 8 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Ten o'clock tomorrow  29 morning, please.  30 MR. GOLDIE:  Very well, my lord.  31 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until 10:00  32 a.m. tomorrow morning.  33  34 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:10 p.m.)  35  36 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  37 a true and accurate transcript of the  38 proceedings herein transcribed to the  39 best of my skill and ability.  40  41  42  43  44 Toni Kerekes,  45 O.R., R.P.R.  46 United Reporting Service Ltd.  47

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