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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-10-24] British Columbia. Supreme Court Oct 24, 1988

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 361  Submission by Mr. Goldie  1 VANCOUVER, B.C.  2 October 24, 1988  3  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  5 Columbia, Vancouver, this Monday October 24, 1988.  In  6 the matter of Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen  7 at bar, my lord.  8 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie.  9 MR. GOLDIE:  My Lord, before I resume Mr. Sterritt's  10 cross-examination there's a matter that I feel ought  11 to be dealt with because it involves the order of the  12 plaintiffs' expert witnesses.  A misunderstanding  13 about this came to light on Thursday last, and it  14 relates to a change in the order.  My friend wishes to  15 have Dr. Daly precede Miss Albright, Mr. Kari and Dr.  16 Hatler instead of following them.  That is to say that  17 his proposed order would be as follows:  In this week,  18 that is to say the week of the 24th to the 28th,  19 following the completion of Mr. Sterritt's evidence,  20 Mr. Matthews would be called, followed by Mr.  21 Gottesfeld or Mr. Chilton, depending upon their  22 availability, and then followed by whichever of those  23 two was yet to be heard from, followed by Hauessler,  24 then the week of the 31st of October is not a sitting  25 week, and that is the week in which Mr. Boys'  26 commission evidence would be heard, and then my friend  27 wishes to call Dr. Daly in the week beginning November  28 the 7th.  The difficulty with that is that it is in  29 contrast to the order that was given by Mr. Grant on  30 September the 12th, which was the day the trial  31 resumed, and I'll just refer your lordship to page  32 7592, where he gave an estimate of time and he said:  33  34 "Mr. Sterritt would be a minimum of two weeks.  35 Following on him we would call Allan Gottesfeld."  36  37 And then there is a discussion of why they were being  38 called, and then he said after Mr. Gottesfeld would be  39 Matthews and then after Matthews, Chilton, Hatler,  40 Sybil Hauessler, Sylvia Albright, Jim Kari, and then  41 there was a discussion about Rigsby.  And then he said  42 we would anticipate on this schedule that we would  43 call Dr. Daly on November the 7th, that's at page  44 7954, and that is in accordance with the letter that  45 we received in court that day in which Mr. Grant said:  46  47 "In any event, we anticipate that for the months 362  Submission by Mr. Goldie  1 of September and October the following witnesses  2 will be called in this order."  3  4 And then he set them out without assigning any dates  5 to them in that letter but just giving us the order  6 and the estimated length of the direct examination.  7 Your lordship will see that as the time moved against  8 that schedule what my friends propose doing is, so to  9 speak, plucking people out.  Our assumption was, that  10 as the time went by, the whole order -- that the order  11 would be maintained and that we would start off with  12 Matthews and so on down the line, and the importance  13 of this is simply that -- and I should say, that that  14 order was reconfirmed on September the 16th at  15 transcript 128 at pages 7863 to 7864 and dates were  16 given for all of those people, not just for Dr. Daly.  17 The -- the importance of it is this:  We suggested to  18 the plaintiffs' counsel that in order to avoid a delay  19 when the witness was on the stand that we be given his  20 field notes and working papers beforehand, and to some  21 extent that was a subject matter of discussion before  22 your lordship, but in the result we have been supplied  23 with field notes, some of them very extensive, indeed  24 Dr. -- Sylvia Albright's field notes are extensive and  25 so are Dr. Daly's.  The importance or the significance  26 of this is that when Dr. Daly's field notes came in in  27 October they were treated as if the same order of call  28 would be observed, and Mr. Willms, who is responsible  29 for preparing both Albright and Daly, concentrated on  30 Albright on the understanding that we had then, that  31 Albright's -- she would be called before -- she would  32 be called after Hauessler, and then she would be  33 followed by Kari and then Dr. Daly, and that was the  34 end of the list that we have.  Daly's notes exceed 300  35 pages, and I am advised by Mr. Willms, and having  36 looked at it to some extent myself, I agree with him,  37 that it would be quite impossible for him to switch  38 from completing his preparations for Albright to Daly  39 in time for November the 7th.  So our preference, my  40 lord, would be to have Albright and Kari reinserted in  41 the schedule that was originally proposed, and if that  42 means that Dr. Daly cannot be completed in the period  43 beginning November 7th, well that's a product of the  44 time that has been taken since the trial began and  45 resumed on September 12th.  I said to my friend I want  46 to accommodate him so far as is possible, but our  47 preparations were based upon what Mr. Grant had told 363  Submission by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 us that the order of the witnesses would be as they  2 were given to your lordship on September 12th and  3 confirmed on September 16th.  4 THE COURT:  Miss Koenigsberg.  5 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I share the same misconception that my friend,  6 Mr. Goldie, did in understanding the order of the  7 witnesses, and as time went by adjusting, assuming  8 that the witnesses would be put off.  The -- my  9 concerns, my lord, are based on in part the difficulty  10 of preparing a cross-examination for Mr. Daly in  11 particular when such a substantial part of his report,  12 from the defendant's point of view, that is the  13 interviews in particular were produced on October 5th.  14 Your lordship will recall that we did have an argument  15 and your lordship provided us with reasons for  16 judgment in relation to an interpretation of section  17 11 of the Evidence Act as to whether that kind of data  18 constituted facts on which the opinion relies, and  19 your lordship found that indeed in those kinds of  20 circumstances they do, and that -- technically at  21 least, and it is technical in one sense, the position  22 that I take, and that is that in fact we have not had  23 60 days from which we have received a full report, and  24 in fact December 5th would be the first day on which  25 Mr. Daly could properly be called if we adhered to  26 section 11.  We of course wish to accomodate our  27 friends as best we can, and although we do have some  28 of the same problems with substantial material that  29 we've been served with in this last week in relation  30 to witnesses who propose to be called this week, we  31 are juggling as best we can to deal with that  32 material.  Mr. Daly is too difficult to accommodate in  33 the same way, and the preparation for the type of  34 cross-examination which in our view is the appropriate  35 one is simply going to take longer to put together the  36 material that we've been provided and be able to  37 prepare a cross-examination for him, so that it would  38 be very difficult indeed for us to be prepared to  39 cross-examine him if he were called on November 7th.  40 And I can advise your lordship that the number of  41 interviews that we were provided with on October 5th  42 were 27 in number, and we had in fact on a review of  43 our materials already received four of those  44 interviews previously, so that in fact there were 23  45 new ones, and they're in handwriting and they bear  46 directly on the cross-examination, in our preparation  47 for cross-examination, they're not incidental at all. 8864  Submission by Mr. Rush  1 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Rush.  2 MR. RUSH:  The assumption that the plaintiffs were operating  3 under when the schedule and the order of the schedule  4 was indicated to your lordship was that there would be  5 an order and as well there would be a grouping of  6 expert witnesses around sessions, and you might recall  7 that we were trying to do two things, and one was to  8 give an order and the second was to bring about some  9 certainty and accuracy as to whether the witnesses  10 would be called within certain sessions, and when Mr.  11 Grant made his submissions to you on the 12th he  12 indicated, just as I've indicated to you now, on page  13 7592 of that volume where he said:  14  15 "We have made an effort to complete the scheduling  16 of the expert witnesses and counsel, and of course  17 many of these persons are from out of the area.  18 They have other commitments, and so we, rather  19 than -- on the assumption of the three weeks on  20 and one week off schedule, subject to what I will  21 say in due course, we would like to schedule it as  22 a grouping of witnesses for each session.  And if  23 those witnesses are completed earlier than that  24 three-week session, then we would then adjourn to  25 the next session."  26  27 The basis upon which we as counsel for the plaintiffs  28 have been operating is that at the beginning of each  29 session we would lead the witnesses to the extent that  30 we had time for them.  If they were done earlier, that  31 was the end of the session.  If in fact we couldn't  32 call a witness, that witness would be put over, but  33 there would be a certainty as to the commencement of  34 their -- of their testimony.  So what we did was to  35 schedule our experts based on an estimated time, and  36 as well as some certainty when they would start based  37 on a certain date for the commencement of their  38 evidence, and for Dr. Daly, both on the 12th and later  39 on September the 16th, it was indicated to my friends  40 that Dr. Daly would start on November the 7th and that  41 Dr. Daly's evidence would probably take two weeks.  42 Now, with the loss of a week we had to make some  43 adjustments in the schedule of our witnesses, and what  44 we decided to do was to drop two of these witnesses in  45 their order, that is to say Dr. Kari and Miss  46 Albright, and to keep to the same schedule for the  47 commencement dates.  And the desire on our part was we 365  Submission by Mr. Rush  1 wanted to complete witnesses when they started as best  2 we could, and the ones who had dates certain for the  3 commencement of their testimony, that they would start  4 on that date, but I think it has been clear throughout  5 to my learned friends that Dr. Daly was always  6 supposed to start on November the 7th and run for two  7 weeks.  Now, the difficulty -- my friend -- I advised  8 my friend of our view of the order of the witnesses  9 last week, and he said that Mr. Willms was not in a  10 position to go ahead with Dr. Daly and that he saw  11 that -- or he was going to work on the assumption that  12 Dr. Daly's evidence would be put to January.  Now, my  13 lord, both in respect of the period of time when Dr.  14 Daly was intended to be called, that is in the weeks  15 of November 7th and 14th, we've made adjustments in  16 our schedule which will be difficult for us to resile  17 from.  And as well, it would be difficult, that is to  18 say not difficult but impossible, for us to proceed  19 with Dr. Daly in January.  So the effect of the  20 suggestions by my learned friend, Mr. Goldie, earlier  21 that we go in January and re-substitute Kari and  22 Albright for the period of November 7th and 14th is  23 not workable from our standpoint.  I should say to  24 your lordship that this doesn't mean to say that I  25 don't recognize that there are adjustments and  26 flexibilities that have to be played all the way  27 around, given the way in which no one can predict the  28 length of time of a witness' evidence, but I should  29 say that I had thought that my learned friends -- and  30 I think it's clear from the transcripts, that my  31 learned friends understood that we had wanted to go in  32 this grouping pattern and that Dr. Daly's evidence  33 would start on the 7th.  I should say to you, my lord,  34 that it is a new argument that I have heard for the  35 first time today from Miss Koenigsberg that the  36 delivery of the interview notes on October the 5th  37 would have caused a difficulty for them in the  38 preparation of their cross-examination of Dr. Daly.  39 Our position had been throughout that Dr. Daly's  40 report was -- was extremely detailed, running, I  41 think, to some 700 pages, and that the evidence and  42 the facts upon which Mr. Daly was relying was set out  43 fully in that report.  Now, as I understand my learned  44 friend, Miss Koenigsberg, that they are not prepared  45 to proceed without their 60-days notice of those  46 interview notes, and if that is my learned friend's  47 position, well then I think your lordship has to weigh 366  Submission by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  the fact of the delivery of Mr. Daly -- Dr. Daly's  report in August the 26th against the delivery of  these interview notes on October the 5th.  I should  say that it is our preference to proceed with Dr. Daly  in the week of November the 7th.  I've indicated to my  friend that depending how long the examination for the  witnesses, the expert witnesses that are scheduled to  give evidence this week, depending how long that goes,  we would be prepared to call Mr. Hatler either before  Dr. Daly or after Dr. Daly in order to allow for his  evidence to be given, but I think I should conclude by  saying, my lord, that the worst possible situation  from the plaintiffs' standpoint would be to start Dr.  Daly and not complete him, and as well for Dr. Daly's  evidence to be given in January.  If your lordship's  view is that my friends in some way have persuaded you  that they're not able to proceed with Dr. Daly on the  7th, then I think we're back to trying to reschedule  the whole of Dr. Daly's evidence into some period in  the spring, and that would have to relate to the  evidence of other of our witnesses, but I have to  advise your lordship that in terms of our own schedule  in the weeks of November the 7th that I think we could  recommence our preparations for Dr. Kari, but that  would not be possible with Miss Albright, so that's  the current state of affairs, so long as we are  prepared in the scheduling issue.  And Kari will take how long, please?  Well, our estimate was, and this also turned on --  Sorry, three to four days.  That's right.  And this also turned, my lord, on the  question of Dr. Rigsby, because we were trying to  obtain certain admissions with regard to Dr. Rigsby,  and Miss Mandell and Mr. Willms were discussing  various portions of his report and so on, and I  thought that they were close to achieving some common  ground on that, but if no common ground was  achievable, then of course Dr. Rigsby would -- we  would have to make a decision about Dr. Rigsby.  Well, what I gather you're telling me, Mr. Rush, is  that if Dr. Daly doesn't give his evidence starting  November 7th you can fill in the time in part only.  I think that's right.  I think we can -- we can and  will go with Mr. Hatler and we can and will go with  Dr. Kari, but it may not be immediately after Mr.  Hatler.  I think there's a four-day week in one of  those weeks. 367  Submission by Mr. Rush  Submission by Mr. Goldie  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  2 MR. RUSH:  And so -- but I think we can fill in a portion of the  3 time, if not all of it.  4 THE COURT:  And then you say, Mr. Rush, that if Dr. — is it Dr.  5 Kari, Dr. Kari?  6 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  7 THE COURT:  Mr. Kari or Dr. Kari?  8 MR. RUSH:  I think it's Dr.  9 THE COURT:  Dr. Kari that if he doesn't go on the 7th then it  10 can't be January, it's got to be sometime in --  11 MR. RUSH:  Oh, you're talking about Dr. Daly.  12 THE COURT:  Dr. Daly.  13 MR. RUSH:  I think then we're back to basically square one in  14 finding a time when we can schedule Dr. Daly's  15 evidence.  It would have to be in the spring, and we  16 would -- I mean this all turns on the question of the  17 pace of the trial and so on.  18 THE COURT:  Yes, all right.  And what you're telling me, Mr.  19 Goldie, is that -- well, I have to rely on what you  20 tell me.  Are you saying you can't be ready?  21 MR. GOLDIE:  No.  22 THE COURT:  For November 7th with Dr. Daly.  23 MR. GOLDIE:  That's the present situation, my lord.  I want to  24 repeat that we have based our preparation on Mr.  25 Grant's letter of September 9th in which he said the  26 witnesses will be called in this order.  Now, my --  27 the first we learned that this order was being changed  28 was when I phoned Mr. Rush on Thursday last and said  29 what's -- how long do you think your re-examination  30 will be, and then he said this is the -- this is how I  31 see the following week, and then he went on.  The  32 question of November 7th for Dr. Daly was never given  33 any prominence.  All of the witnesses in the last time  34 Mr. Grant addressed the court were given dates.  And  35 as I said earlier, we simply pushed the order down.  36 We had no intimation there was a change in the order.  37 Albright is a witness that has taken considerable  38 preparation time, and Mr. Willms -- my instructions  39 are Mr. Willms is ready to deal with the time we  40 thought Albright was going to be called.  Kari doesn't  41 require the same degree of preparation, and we will be  42 ready for him.  It was my understanding that some --  43 well, we have assumed that Dr. Rigsby wouldn't need to  44 be called, that we would have some common basis for  45 agreeing on that.  If that hasn't been brought to a  46 complete conclusion, I'm sure it will be, but as I  47 say, my instructions are it would simply be out of the Ruling  1 question to be ready for Daly with -- given the fact  2 that the time since we received the notes and the  3 present time has been primarily taken up with the  4 preparation of witnesses in the order that we received  5 them.  6 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  Well, these are problems  7 which I'm sure we all prefer not to have.  I can  8 understand what's happened.  Mr. Rush -- or Mr. Grant,  9 rather, gave names and he applied dates to those  10 names, grouping them as he -- as Mr. Rush has  11 described in work periods or sitting periods, and when  12 the evidence of Mr. Sterritt was extended and then  13 extended further and then adjourned and still isn't  14 complete, one of two things obviously had to happen:  15 One is that the whole list of witnesses had to be  16 pushed down or -- and kept in the same order, or the  17 other alternative is to drop off the early ones and  18 reschedule them and keep the dates to which the other  19 witnesses were assigned, and -- and I can understand  20 how in those circumstances there would be a  21 misunderstanding between counsel.  I think in these  22 matters I should always try to accede to the  23 statements of counsel as to what they can do and what  24 they can't do.  Regrettable as it is, Mr. Rush tells  25 me that he can reschedule the witnesses and he can  26 reschedule Mr. Daly into the spring.  Mr. Goldie tells  27 me that he can't be ready to deal with Dr. Daly in the  28 week of November 7th.  When counsel tell me that, as I  29 say, I think I should try to pay attention to it, and  30 for that reason it seems to me that I should ask Mr.  31 Rush to kindly reconsider the position and see what  32 rescheduling can be done and that Dr. Daly will have  33 to be put off to the spring.  I don't think that Dr.  34 Daly has to be scheduled for January, apparently  35 that's not possible either, so I suppose it's sometime  36 after that, but I don't think that I will try to force  37 counsel to do what they tell me that they can't do, so  38 is it convenient to carry on with Mr. Sterritt, Mr.  39 Rush, and in due course you'll let us know what you  40 can do about rescheduling?  41 MR. RUSH:  Well, yes, my Lord.  I don't think there's any  42 problem with the -- this week.  4 3    THE COURT:  Yes.  44 MR. RUSH:  I don't think there's any difficulty with the  45 witnesses we have right now scheduled to commence  46 tomorrow.  Our first expert witness and the remaining  47 expert witnesses will follow along.  So there's no 369  Submission by Mr. Rush  1  1  2  3  4  5  THE  COURT:  6  MR.  RUSH:  7  8  9  THE  COURT:  10  MR.  RUSH:  11  12  THE  COURT:  13  MR.  RUSH:  14  1  15  THE  COURT:  16  1  17  MR.  GOLDIE  18  MR.  RUSH:  19  20  THE  COURT:  21  MR.  RUSH:  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  1  37  38  39  1  40  41  42  43  THE  COURT:  44  1  45  MR.  RUSH:  46  MR.  GOLDIE  47  MR.  RUSH:  difficulty with this week, and I think that we can  proceed on the basis of Mr. Hatler, and I think we can  proceed on the basis of Mr. Hatler beginning on the  7th, the beginning of the week of the 7th.  Yes.  Then it's a matter of determining what Dr. Kari --  whether we can go with Dr. Kari in that week or the  following week.  Yes.  But I do not think we will be in the position to  proceed with Miss Albright.  Yes.  And if that changes I will advise my friends, but I  don't think that we can change on that.  All right, thank you.  Are you ready to proceed, Mr.  Goldie?  :  Yes, I am, my lord.  I have some other issues I want to raise with your  lordship.  Yes.  There was a question of the scheduling of the  cross-examination of the affidavit witnesses that was  raised by Mr. Goldie at the end of our last session,  and I just wanted to bring your lordship up to speed  on a couple of matters that were raised by my learned  friend.  I should advise your lordship that on the  20th of October Mr. Grant wrote to the defendants  setting out a proposed order, a schedule, and an  estimated time for the cross-examination of the  in-court affidavit witnesses, and following that we  were advised by the defendants that this proposal was  agreed to.  So far as the in-court witnesses go it  looks like we're of the same mind in terms of your  lordship's two weeks in Smithers.  Now, since the  estimates of the time for the out-of-court witnesses,  depending on the estimates of time for the in-court  witnesses, we wanted assurances or at least some  concurrence with our proposal coming from the  defendants, and we have that now, and we are now in  the process of making a proposal for the out-of-court  scheduling.  I hope to have that to my learned friend  this week.  How many witnesses will be here in court?  It  doesn't matter if it's not --  I think we're going to hear --  : I think it's 11, my Lord.  That's right. 370  Submission by Mr. Rush  1  THE  COURT  2  MR.  RUSH:  3  4  5  THE  COURT  6  MR.  RUSH:  7  8  THE  COURT  9  10  MR.  RUSH:  11  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  RUSH:  14  THE  COURT  15  MR.  RUSH:  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  RUSH:  18  19  20  21  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  RUSH:  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Yes, all right.  And I should tell your lordship that there's a bit of  flexibility there.  We -- apparently there's two weeks  and we have eight and a half days committed.  Yes.  So we have a bit of flexibility, and I think if  counsel are agreed that that is a workable schedule.  And how many witnesses are going to be  cross-examined out of court?  Well, the balance, and I'm not sure of the number,  but I thought was close to 35.  Yes, all right.  In total, so --  All right.  The second point that I wanted to raise, my lord --  I'm sorry, are those all Wet'suwet'en.  No.  They're not.  All of the -- there are -- all of  the Wet'suwet'en and the balance of the Gitksan, and I  believe there are 15 or 16 Gitksan and I think there  is pretty much of a mix of Wet'suwet'en and Gitksan  that will be called into this court.  Thank you.  Now, my friend also made a request during the  evidence or during the last day of our hearing on  October the 14th for copies of contracts of certain of  the experts, and copies of agreements that were signed  by the experts were delivered to my friend on October  the 20th, and there were 13 such agreements, and those  are the ones that we have.  The third point was a  request was made for a plaintiffs' document number  418.  Now, my lord, a letter was sent to Mr. Goldie on  October the 21st, and it was Mr. Goldie who made these  requests, and in that letter the history of the  plaintiffs' efforts to find this document and of our  responses to the defendant were set out.  In short,  without going through the entirety of the letter, we  could not find any document fitting the description of  that document in the document list.  Now, I indicated  in the letter that we had renewed our efforts with  this most recent request, and the requests have  occurred over a number of weeks and we have tried to  track down whether this document is correctly  described and if we have it.  And what we had found  was that we had gone through a similar process in  October of '86 and again in May of '87, one on a  request of Mr. Mackenzie and a second on the request  we believe of Miss Russell, and in both cases we were 371  Submission by Mr. Rush  1 unable to find a document that was described as is in  2 our list.  And in the case of Mr. Macaulay we so  3 advised Mr. Macaulay in May of 1987 that we thought  4 the document was mis-described and we could find no  5 such document.  And that is the position that we are  6 in today.  Now, the fourth point that I wish to raise  7 is that this -- this is in respect of Band Council  8 documents.  Now, my lord, you will recall that the  9 priority that was to be given in respect of the  10 investigations of the B.C. Special Vote documents and  11 Band Council documents was for the B.C. Special Vote  12 documents to be looked for first.  I advised you  13 that -- one of the Band Council -- one of the band's  14 documents had been searched for and we had obtained a  15 number of those documents, and we have now listed  16 those documents and we have -- the Kispiox Band  17 Council documents were listed on supplementary list of  18 documents number 13, which was delivered on Friday  19 last.  And I talked to Mr. Grant today and he advised  20 me today, this morning, that he has completed the  21 investigations with regard to the B.C. Special Vote  22 documents and he's now moving into going to each one  23 of the bands and trying to determine whether or not  24 these other documents, relevant documents are in  25 existence.  Now, finally, with respect to the  26 documents relating to the B.C. Special Vote, Mr. Grant  27 made further investigations with respect to these  28 documents, and he wrote to Mr. Goldie on October the  29 19th enclosing one further document from Gitsegukla,  30 and he advised at that time that -- that there was  31 only one further band that needed to be consulted and  32 that was Gitanmax, and he had not obtained any  33 information from the Gitanmax band about the existence  34 or non-existence of B.C. Special Vote documents in  35 their possession.  In my conversation with Mr. Grant  36 this morning he advised me that he had, since my last  37 discussion with him on the Friday, that there were in  38 fact six documents in the possession of the band and  39 that he had them, and those documents were being FAXed  40 to my learned friends today.  And that -- that should  41 complete the searches by Mr. Grant and the bands with  42 regard to the B.C. Special Vote documents, that all of  43 those documents were and have been dealt with.  So  44 that should complete that request.  Now, that, as I've  45 indicated, my lord, the efforts are ongoing with  46 respect to the Band Council documents, and we will --  47 are making our best efforts to obtain the balance of 372  Submission by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  those documents.  Now, there is one further matter  that I wish to raise with the court and this -- this  is in relation to audio tape number 5594, and your  lordship may recall that parts of this -- that this  tape was transcribed and this tape was played to Mr.  Sterritt in the course of his examination.  THE COURT:  This is the interview of Walter Blackwater?  MR. RUSH:  That's right.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. RUSH:  And in the course of the cross-examination an  allegation was made that this tape was concealed, and  I want to reject any such suggestion, but I thought it  was important to put on the record what occurred in  respect of this particular document.  And what I've  been able to learn with respect to this document is  the following:  Firstly, that on December the 14th,  1987 a request was made by Miss Sigurdson for a number  of documents, and in the letter that she directed to  counsel there were -- there was a request for over a  hundred documents, including a number of audio tapes,  and one of those documents was 5594.  Now, in response  to that letter Mr. Adams of my office wrote to Miss  Sigurdson on January the 14th, 1988, and in that  letter he indicated the following:  He replied in  respect to a number of these documents and he said  this :  "The following documents are cited in expert  reports, but are not in the plaintiffs'  possession.  I will request them.  When we receive  them, and if they are not privileged, I will have  copies made and delivered to you."  And then he lists some 59 documents, including 5594.  Well, in the following paragraph he says:  "The following documents are privileged."  And there he lists three documents, including 5594.  Now, following that Miss Sigurdson writes back to Mr.  Adams on the 25th of January, and she says that:  "Document 5594 is described as May 22nd, 1983  Blackwater, Walter/Sterritt, N.J.  audiotape-English Walter Blackwater interviewed  by Neil J. Sterritt.  This item appears to be one  of a series of interviews conducted by Mr. 373  Submission by Mr. Rush  1 Sterritt."  2  3 This is Miss Sigurdson carrying on in her letter:  4  5 "Privilege has not been claimed for the others.  6 Thus I would ask you to advise us of the basis  7 of the claim for privilege for Document 5594."  8  9 Now, in the -- following that, on April 11th and 12th,  10 Mr.  Mackenzie went to Hazelton and asked for a large  11 number of audio tapes, and a large number were made  12 available to him, but he reviewed a fraction of the  13 ones that he requested, including five audio tapes.  14 Now, on May the 13th, 1988 Miss Sigurdson again writes  15 to Mr. Adams this time, and -- Mr. Grant, and she says  16 as follows:  17  18 "We have not yet received a number of the documents  19 requested in my letter of December 14th, 1987.  20 These documents are:"  21  22 And then she lists a large number of them.  And she  23 goes on in subparagraph D:  24  25 "Audio and video tapes."  26  27 And then she enumerates 5557, 5560, 5591, 5603, 5628,  28 5629, 5630, 5631, and 5639, and no mention is made of  29 5594.  Now, on June the 7th, 1988 we wrote Mr. Adams,  30 replied to Mr. Mackenzie's letter of April the 28th,  31 and he in that letter, that is Mr. Adams in that  32 letter, claimed privilege for three documents, 5628,  33 5629 and 5630, none including 5594.  And those  34 particular documents were all audio tapes.  Following  35 that, on July the 8th, 1988 Miss Sigurdson replied  36 regarding a number of documents, and in this letter,  37 among a number of other requests that she made, she  38 said:  39  40 "By letter of January 14th, 1988 Mr. Adams advised  41 that document 5594 was privileged.  That document  42 is described in the plaintiffs' list as an  43 audiotape of Mr. Sterritt's interview with Mr.  44 Walter Blackwater.  As Mr. Sterritt is basing his  45 expert opinion on the information he gathered from  46 the hereditary chiefs no privilege can attach to  47 this tape.  I repeat my request that you provide 8874  Submission by Mr. Rush  1 us with a copy of document 5594."  2  3 Well, the matter was subsequently raised, my lord, at  4 the cross-examination of Mr. Blackwater.  5 MR. GOLDIE: There was no answer to that.  6 MR. RUSH:  And my learned friend read a passage but not all the  7 relevant material with regard to the point raised by  8 Mr. Mackenzie.  He read to you from line 5 down to  9 line 17, and I would just like to read what he said  10 following that.  Beginning at line 17, and this is Mr.  11 Mackenzie saying:  12  13 "Mr. Mackenzie:  And I just wanted to record our  14 position that if that material is being  15 relied upon by Mr. Sterritt in preparing his  16 report and preparing for his evidence, then  17 it's our view that it cannot be privileged.  18 Mr. Grant:  Did you receive a response from  19 Mr. Rush with respect to this request?  20 Mr. Mackenzie:  No, we haven't.  21 Mr. Grant:  Okay.  Well, I'll put on the record  22 the situation that occurred.  I received  23 your letter of August 24th, which refers to  24 this request to July 8th, 1988 and also  25 referred to other documents referred to in  26 the interrogatory of David Blackwater and  27 William Blackwater.  By letter of August  28 26th, 1988 I delivered a response relating  29 to all of those other requests, and I  30 stated -- and I quote from my letter to Mr.  31 Plant:  'I apologize for the delay in  32 responding to your letter of May 16th, 1988  33 regarding the interrogatory of David  34 Blackwater and William Blackwater.  I had  35 understood that this matter was being  36 dealt with by one of the other lawyers'.  37 Meaning one of the other lawyers of the  38 plaintiff.  'And it was not until the most  39 recent letter of Thora Sigurdson of August  40 24th that I realized that this matter had  41 not been dealt with subsequent to your  42 letter of June 8th.'"  43  44 Then Mr. Grant goes on:  45  46 "Mr. Grant:  I then go on to inform with respect  47 to the documents relating to the 375  Submission by Mr. Rush  1 interrogatories.  I'll state for the record  2 with respect to document 5594 upon receipt  3 of the August 24th letter I requested a copy  4 of that audio tape so that could be reviewed  5 by myself once again, and determine whether  6 it is subject to a claim for privilege -- or  7 review the position of whether it's subject  8 to a claim for privilege.  I determined at  9 that time on August 24th or 25th -- no, it  10 would have been the 25th or the 26th. The  11 letter was FAXed to the me on the 24th --  12 that the tape was in Vancouver at our  13 library resource centre in Vancouver.  I  14 then left instructions for that tape to be  15 forwarded directly to Mr. Rush's office,  16 for Mr. Rush or Mr. Adams to review it.  17 With respect to my letter of August 26th  18 which I FAXed Mr. Plant in response to  19 Thora Sigurdson's letter of August 24th, I  20 received no other -- no follow-up response  21 until this morning.  Although I have been in  22 these cross-examinations continuously since  23 Monday, I think that's August 29th with  24 counsel for the Province, including Mr.  25 Mackenzie, Ms. Sigurdson, and Mr. Goldie at  26 different times, none of the counsel  27 for the Province has referred again to the  28 audio tape 5594.  I was therefore under the  29 impression until just this moment that the  30 tape had been delivered to Mr. Rush's  31 office.  Because of my schedule on these  32 cross-examinations, I have not had an  33 opportunity to speak with Mr. Rush about  34 each and every sundry matter arising in the  35 case this week.  I had assumed that the tape  36 had been delivered to his office, that he or  37 Mr. Adams had reviewed the tape and that a  38 copy of the tape had been delivered, that  39 the claim for privilege had been determined  40 to be waived.  So I -- this takes me much  41 by surprise.  42 I just want to say for the record that  43 at six o'clock or thereabouts when we  44 finished Mr. Morrison's cross-examination,  45 we did discuss our revised schedule.  46 Counsel for the Province and Canada  47 indicated they needed this morning to 376  Submission by Mr. Rush  1 prepare, if we were going to do Walter  2 Blackwater this afternoon, and if I had been  3 informed last night about this audio tape, I  4 would have been able, between last  5 night and now, two o'clock this afternoon,  6 to contact Mr. Rush's office and determine  7 what had happened.  8 So I understand from what you're  9 saying -- I don't have all correspondence,  10 but I am operating on the assumption, from  11 what you're saying, that on the basis  12 of the initial request, document 5594,  13 privilege was claimed.  I understood from  14 the August 24th letter that this request is  15 repeated, and that we respect that  16 repetition of the request and we were  17 reviewing that.  It was not possible for me,  18 after receipt of the August 24th letter, to  19 get my hands on the audio tape to review it  20 myself.  I arranged for other counsel to do  21 it.  22 I was under no impression until right now  23 that that -- what I had anticipated had  24 happened had not occurred.  I have not had a  25 chance to review the copies of  26 correspondence to Mr. Rush's office, to the  27 Provincial defendants that have been  28 delivered to my office this week.  I have  29 been operating on the assumption that that  30 matter had been attended to.  31 So at this point I am not in a position  32 to either waive privilege or advise you.  33 But I want all of this set out on the  34 record, because, you know, it would make  35 things -- I had all morning to contact Mr.  36 Rush if I had known that there was any  37 problem about this.  38 Mr. Mackenzie:  Well, perhaps when we have a break  39 you might be kind enough to check with  4 0 Vancouver, and maybe the problem can be  41 resolved that way.  42 Mr. Grant:   I just would like you to -- have you  43 checked with your office as to whether this  44 matter has been delivered as of today?  45 Mr. Mackenzie:  I understand we have, yes."  46  47 And that was the end of the matter there.  The tape 8877  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 was obtained by our office, it was reviewed, and that  2 privilege was waived and the tape was delivered, and  3 that is the history of the matter.  4 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  5 MR. GOLDIE: Well, I have no comment to make, my lord.  The fact  6 is that the question of the basis for the privilege  7 was raised way back in January.  It seems an  8 inordinate length of time to have it resolved.  I'm  9 ready to resume Mr. Sterritt's cross-examination.  10 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  11 THE REGISTRAR:  I caution the witness you're still under oath.  12 A   Thank you.  13 MR. GOLDIE:  14 Q   Mr. Sterritt, there has been one Band Council  15 resolution dealing with the B.C. Special Produce  16 Forest.  It is a circular copy of a circular letter  17 from the Chief and Council of the Gitsekukla Band  18 Council dated July 16th, 1987.  And I'm going to show  19 you a copy.  Can you identify the people who are named  20 in that handwritten note; I can't quite make it out?  21 Are you familiar with anybody whose name -- it looks  22 like Kalii, K-A-L-I-I?  23 A   No, I'm not.  24 Q   Or do you recognize the signature?  And when I say  25 recognize, if you recognize the writing or the name?  26 A   No, I don't.  27 Q   I suppose you would agree with me that the handwritten  28 note "Here's the latest we received re B.C. Special"  29 indicates that there are earlier communications?  3 0 A   I don't know.  31 Q   You don't know of any correspondence of this character  32 at all, do you?  33 A   No, I don't.  34 Q   The body of the letter states, and I quote in the  35 first paragraph:  36  37 "Our B.C. Regional Office has advised us that  38 $2,491.86 has been credited to your Band's revenue  39 trust account.  This entry should appear on your  4 0 July computer report."  41  42 I'm not suggesting that you're familiar with such  43 reports, Mr. Sterritt, but perhaps you can tell me if  44 you are?  45 A   No, I'm not.  46 Q   I'm going to leave my request open, my lord, for the  47 production of the computer reports and any earlier 37?  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 correspondence of this kind.  One other question, Mr.  2 Sterritt.  The last paragraph reads:  3  4 "Special grant based on a population of 566 at  5 $4.40 per capita."  6  7 Would you agree that the population of 566 for the  8 Gitsegukla Band is approximately correct?  9 A   I don't know the population of that band.  10 Q   All right.  11 A   I don't know.  12 MR. GOLDIE:  I'm not proposing that that be marked, my lord.  13 THE COURT:  All right.  14 MR. GOLDIE:  15 Q   Now, part of a production from the Attorney General of  16 Canada consists of Band Council minutes, and I'm going  17 to show you those, which record a meeting of the  18 Gitksan-Carrier Tribal Council held at the Glenvowell  19 Community Hall on Friday, November 14th, 1975.  And I  20 ask you to direct your attention to page -- it's --  21 what was produced, my lord, is page 1, and then it  22 jumps to page 10, page 10 being the second page.  23 Would you look at that page, please, Mr. Sterritt.  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   At the last paragraph indicates that you were present  26 and that you addressed the meeting?  27 A   Yes.  2 8 Q   And you said, and I quote:  29  30 "I only brought 15 copies of this brief I will be  31 reading."  32  33 Have you any present recollection of the nature of the  34 brief that you're referring to?  35 A   No, I don't.  36 Q   Turning over the page, it's headed at the top page 11.  37 This appears to be the text of a letter which you  38 addressed to Mr. Jones dated November 14th, 1975.  39 Would you please read that; I don't mean out loud,  40 just read it so you're familiar with it.  41 A   That's on page 11?  42 Q   Yes.  It begins:  43  44 "Dear Ray:  Land claims and Aboriginal rights  45 remain important issue for all Indian people."  46  47 A   Yes. 8879  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Your letter is in support of a -- the Tribal Council's  2 endorsement of a request for funds?  3 A   The letter appears to be to Ray Jones for them to  4 consider and approve a request for funds.  5 Q   Yes?  6 A   From the Secretary of State.  7 Q   That is to say the government of Canada?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And for whom -- on whose behalf were you seeking the  10 Tribal Council's approval?  11 A   This is 1975, I believe it would be on behalf of the  12 hereditary chiefs.  13 Q   Is that what you mean when you say in the second  14 complete paragraph:  15  16 "On the contrary it is a request for further funds.  17 The difference, however, is that it is a request  18 to obtain funds at the Tribal level instead  19 of at the Provincial level."  20  21 Do you mean the hereditary chiefs, or are you speaking  22 about the bands there?  23 A   The hereditary chiefs, I believe, but I'm stretching  24 back to remember what that was.  25 Q   Yes.  And over on the next page, which is page 12,  26 after a discussion with respect to this matter, your  27 report, you were reported as stating midway down the  28 page, or a little better than midway down the page:  29  30 "In response to Richard Morgan's suggestion.  It is  31 important that the district try to find some  32 individual who can really direct and co-ordinate  33 this study.  It is also important that a member  34 from each band be involved in this study.  We  35 should have one research assistant and eight band  36 co-ordinators for the study.  First of December,  37 taking on new job for three months.  Over the next  38 two weeks, I would be happy to come to any band  39 meeting.  This should go back to band level to  40 discuss and make their recommendations."  41  42 Is that not a statement by you that the -- that the  43 bands should consider the brief that you have  44 presented for the approval of the Tribal Council?  45 A   It's -- my suggestion there is that -- that the bands  46 should be aware of this request and that they could  47 discuss it and make their recommendations with regard 8880  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 to this proposal.  2 Q   Yes.  The proposal -- your recollection is that on  3 behalf of the hereditary chiefs you were seeking funds  4 from the government of Canada, you wanted the approval  5 of the Tribal Council, and as a result of the  6 discussion of your request the matter was to be  7 referred back to the band -- each band, I'm sorry.  8 Isn't that correct?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   Yes.  And that you would be happy to speak to each  11 band with respect to it?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And that followed your appointment or the request made  14 to you in that -- followed the request made to you in  15 September of 1975 by some of the hereditary chiefs  16 that you should pursue the question of aboriginal  17 title?  18 A  Well, it was a request, as I recall, in as early as  19 January or February and followed up by another meeting  20 in the summer of 1975.  21 Q   All right.  22 A   I don't recall September.  23 Q   Yeah.  24 A   But there may have been other meetings.  25 Q   In any event, but November the 14th, 1975 you were  26 then acting pursuant to those requests?  27 A   Yes.  2 8 Q   All right.  And tell me again when you were requested  29 by the Tribal Council to take over the responsibility  30 for land claims?  31 A   In June of 1977.  32 Q   All right, thank you.  33 A   That's in terms of the research, the director of land  34 claims.  35 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  My lord, I tender that as an exhibit.  36 MR. RUSH:  My lord, I just want to point out that this document,  37 among a number, were delivered after the -- by the  38 federal defendant, delivered after the commencement of  39 the cross-examination of Mr. Sterritt.  4 0    THE COURT:  All right.  41 THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit number 764.  42 THE COURT:  Um-hum.  43  44 EXHIBIT 764 - Minutes of Band Council meeting at  45 Glenvowell dated November 14, 1975  46  47 8881  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 MR. GOLDIE:  2 Q   Now, I want to draw to your attention a map which was  3 produced to us fairly recently.  We requested  4 production of a trapline map, and this was referred to  5 in one of the Tribal Council's funding requests.  Do  6 you have any recollection of a trapline map produced  7 by the Tribal Council?  8 A   Yes.  I believe Marvin George did one.  9 Q   And I want to show you the white print we had made  10 from the mylar that was produced to us and ask you if  11 you recognize that as the map that Mr. Marvin  12 George -- if you just hold that, please?  13 A   Yes.  That's the map.  14 MR. GOLDIE:  Perhaps we might just put this up here.  I want you  15 to -- you've had an opportunity of seeing this, have  16 you, Mr. Sterritt?  17 THE COURT:  Doesn't have the date on it, does it?  18 MR. GOLDIE:  19 Q   No, it doesn't.  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Do you have any idea of the date of that map?  22 A   No.  I don't recall.  23 Q   Would you agree with me that the base map, that is to  24 say without regard to the lines which represent  25 trapline boundaries, that the base map is essentially  26 the same as the -- as Exhibit 102, the so-called coded  2 7 map?  28 A   It appears to be identical.  29 Q   Yes?  30 A   On the boundary.  31 Q   Yes.  That's what I'm referring to.  The -- so if the  32 base -- if the base maps are identical and if the date  33 of Exhibit 102 is October 17th, 1985, then the  34 trapline map speaks of about the same time, is that  35 correct?  36 A   Yes.  Somewhere in that period of time.  37 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  3 8 THE COURT:  In '85?  39 MR. GOLDIE:  40 Q   Yes, my lord.  In that map the -- I shouldn't say in  41 that map, but with respect to the map that was  42 attached to the Statement of Claim, and with the  43 exception of the territory of Mr. Walter Paris, the  44 northern boundary pretty well coincided with the  45 boundaries of the traplines in that area, did it not?  46 A   I don't know whether it did or not.  47 Q   Well, regardless of the map, did the northern -- did 8882  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 not the northern boundary, as originally drawn,  2 coincide with the -- with the trapline boundaries at  3 that time?  4 A   I don't know.  5 Q   The -- well, I suppose one could simply compare the  6 two, but I'm not going to ask you to do that at this  7 time.  I want to refer to Exhibit 384, my lord, which  8 is the funding application of the Gitksan-Carrier  9 Tribal Council Land Claims Committee of July 1977.  10 You recall that document, do you not?  It was marked  11 on your examination for discovery as Exhibit 7.  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And you are substantially the author of the document,  14 I believe?  15 A   Yes, I am.  16 Q   And it was approved by the hereditary chiefs, was it?  17 A   I don't recall whether the document itself was or not.  18 Q   I see.  Would you look at page 7, please, under the  19 heading "Traplines"?  20 A   Page 7?  21 Q   Yes.  The next page, I believe, yes?  22 A   Okay.  23 Q   At the top of the page there, there is a heading  24 "Traplines"?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And in paragraph 2 you say -- I'm assuming that you're  27 the author of this.  You say, and I quote:  28  29 "Although the registered trapline always  30 corresponded to aboriginal territory."  31  32 Were you told that by the hereditary chiefs?  33 A   Not necessarily.  34 Q   You might not have been informed of that by the  35 hereditary chiefs; is that what you mean?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   That might have been your own conclusion?  38 A  Well, at the time it might have been my opinion based  39 on the limited work I had done then.  40 Q   Well, it was your opinion at that time, was it?  41 A   Yes.  And what I was saying here was that it -- the  42 traplines corresponded to aboriginal territory, and as  43 I recall, the other point that I was making was that  44 how few non-Indian traplines there were within that  45 territory.  46 Q   Um-hum.  In fact, the -- it turned out that some of  47 the traplines did not include aboriginal territory, 8883  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 and I'm referring to the change in the northern  2 boundary which came about after your relationship, or  3 the relationship of the plaintiffs' with the Tahltan's  4 was re-examined?  5 A   Oh, it was -- well, I mean that's still aboriginal  6 territory, regardless of --  7 Q   It's not -- it's not the aboriginal territory of the  8 chiefs who are the plaintiffs in this action?  9 A   That's right.  10 Q   Yes.  And the map that was developed --  11 A   The other point about this, too, was that the chiefs  12 understood that the traplines were to have been  13 registered around their territories and were to --  14 that if they were registered no white people would be  15 able to enter into them.  They were told that if they  16 didn't register that they would lose their  17 territories.  18 Q   Yes?  19 A  And —  20 Q   You're referring to matters which occurred in the  21 1920's and 1930's now, are you?  22 A  And which have been repeated by hereditary chiefs  23 today.  24 Q   And you were referring to the concern that the holder  25 of a trapline has with respect to poachers?  26 A   No.  The hereditary chiefs were told that non-Indian  27 people -- that the territory could be taken up by  28 non-Indian people if they didn't register their  29 traplines.  30 Q   Mm-hmm.  Well, I suggest to you that one of the  31 concerns of the holder of a trapline is to ensure that  32 he has something that is registered or that gives him  33 the right to complain about poachers, isn't that  34 right, people who are using his territory without his  35 permission to take animals that would -- would  36 otherwise be subject to his trapping?  37 A  Well, the major concern of the hereditary chiefs was  38 that their aboriginal territory would be -- the  39 provincial government would give that territory away  40 to non-Indian people, and that they want -- that there  41 was -- it was necessary for the hereditary chiefs to  42 protect their aboriginal territory, and that he  43 thought that that was a form of protection.  44 Q   Yes.  Now, the -- the map that is behind you which  45 purports to show the outline of the traplines, it  46 shows, does it not, that a trapline which is  47 identified as 0615T029 is partly within and partly 8884  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 without the claims area?  I'm referring to this in  2 here, my lord, 0615T029 actually goes all the way down  3 there.  Do you see that inclusion of 0615T029 within  4 the claims area?  5 A   Yes, I do.  6 Q   That's a part of the Kitwancool Band trapline, is it  7 not?  8 A   I don't think so.  I think it's Solomon Marsden.  9 Q   Well, hasn't Solomon Marsden's line been described  10 from time to time as the Kitwancool Band line?  11 A   I would have to check, but there's a Kitwancool Band  12 trapline and then there is Solomon Marsden.  It may be  13 that Solomon Marsden also has a separate trapline that  14 goes into the area.  15 Q   Whether this is Solomon Marsden or the Kitwancool Band  16 line, it's not -- it's not a trapline that is  17 registered in the name of any of the plaintiffs?  18 A   No, it's not.  Solomon Marsden, as I recall, spoke to  19 that on the stand and said that his territory should  20 not go into that area.  21 Q   Yes.  But nevertheless, Mr. Marvin George plotted that  22 trapline as being within the territory of who, Walter  23 Wilson?  24 A   He plotted it as being within the boundaries of the  25 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs.  26 Q   Yes.  Isn't that -- from your knowledge, isn't that  27 within the claim made by Mr. Walter Wilson?  28 A   Yes.  It's in that area.  29 Q   Okay.  So that in 1985 Mr. Marvin George was plotting  30 a trapline which was owned by somebody other than Mr.  31 Walter Wilson and was not a member of the plaintiffs  32 in this action?  33 A   He was plotting any trapline that may have come into  34 the boundaries of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  35 territories.  36 Q   My lord, I would like that -- or I tender that --  37 A   Including non-Indian persons.  38 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, thank you.  I'm tendering that white print as  39 an exhibit, my lord.  4 0    THE COURT:  Um-hum.  7 65.  41 THE REGISTRAR: 765.  42 MR. GOLDIE: It is described as "Registered traplines within  43 Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en territories", and it is undated.  44  45 EXHIBIT 765 - Registered trapline map, undated  46 Gitksan-Wet'suwet'en territories  47 8885  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  Can we take the morning  2 adjournment now, please.  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will recess.  4  5 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:15)  6  7 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  8 a true and accurate transcript of the  9 proceedings herein transcribed to the  10 best of my skill and ability  11  12  13  14  15 Graham D. Parker  16 Official Reporter  17 United Reporting Service Ltd.  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 8886  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS)  2  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie?  4 MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, what I'd like to do now is to play the  5 opening part of a number of tapes so that the witness  6 can identify that he was indeed the interlocutor and  7 who he is -- the discussion is with.  I will then ask  8 that these be marked but with leave to have copies of  9 the tapes made.  10 Q   Mr. Sterritt, the first tape that I am going to ask  11 Miss Sigurdson to play is number 5629, and the  12 indication on the list is that it is an interview with  13 Alec Jack, of Iskut, and I am just going to play  14 sufficient for you to confirm that it is your voice,  15 and confirm that the other participant is Mr. Jack.  16  17 (TAPE PLAYED)  18  19 MR. GOLDIE:  That's sufficient.  That last voice was Mr. Alec  20 Jack?  21 A   Yes, it is.  22 MR. GOLDIE:  Can I have a number alloted to that, my lord?  23 THE COURT:  That's 766.  24  25 (EXHIBIT 766: TAPE 5629 - N. STERRITT INTERVIEW OF  2 6 ALEX JACK DATED OCTOBER 8, 198 6)  27  28 MR. GOLDIE:  Next one is one that has already been played in  29 part, number 5591, dated November 18, 1982.  And I  30 believe we established that it was the interview was  31 with Mr. Solomon Jack.  32  33 (TAPE PLAYED)  34  35 MR. GOLDIE:  36 Q   That voice was that of Mr. Solomon Jack and you  37 recognize your voice?  38 A   Yes.  39 MR. GOLDIE:   And that, my lord, I ask be numbered or alloted  40 the number of 767.  41 THE COURT:  Yes.  42  43 (EXHIBIT 767: TAPE 5591 OF INTERVIEW BY N. STERRITT OF  4 4 SOLOMON JACK DATED NOVEMBER 18, 19 82)  45  46 MR. GOLDIE:  5639 is stated to be an interview with Mr. Peter  47 Dennis, on October 9th, 1986. 8887  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2 (TAPE PLAYED)  3  4 MR. GOLDIE:   That is an interview then with Mr. Peter Dennis at  5 Iskut, October 9th, 1986 and I ask that that be  6 Exhibit 768, my lord.  7  8 (EXHIBIT 768: TAPE 5639 OF INTERVIEW OF PETER DENNIS  9 BY N. STERRITT DATED OCTOBER 9, 1986)  10  11 THE COURT:  Those numbers, 5639, those are the numbers in the  12 plaintiffs' list of documents?  13 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, the plaintiffs' disclosure, the  14 plaintiffs'list of documents, yes, my lord.  15 The next one is 5587, and this I am instructed is  16 an interview with Mr. Johnny David.  I am sorry, we  17 are going directly to 5603 and I am instructed that  18 this is an interview on March 9th, 1985, with Mr.  19 Richard Benson.  20  21 (TAPE PLAYED)  22  23 A   That's him, that's Richard Benson.  24 MR. GOLDIE:  All right.  25 Q   Mr. Sterritt, you confirm that you were the  26 interlocutor and that the voice that we just heard  27 that was of Mr. Richard Benson?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   When you said right here, you were referring to a map  30 that you had before you?  31 A   I believe so, yes.  32 Q   Have you any recollection of the map?  33 A   I think it was either the white binder map or a plain  34 map that I carry with me that has nothing on it other  35 than the topographic information.  36 THE COURT:  769.  37  38 (EXHIBIT 769: TAPE 5603 OF INTERVIEW WITH RICHARD  3 9 BENSON BY N. STERRITT DATED MARCH 9, 1985)  40  41 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you.  Exhibit 769.  The next one is 5602, and  42 I am instructed that these -- this is an interview  43 with, firstly, Mr. David Gunanoot, on January 17th,  44 1985, then with Martha Himadim on January 18th, 1985.  45 And I am particularly anxious to know if you can  46 identify Mr. Gunanoot, because the tape is rather  47 difficult to follow. N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 THE COURT:  Before you start, are there two interviews on the  2 one tape?  3 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, there are, my lord.  4 THE COURT:  What was the other one then.  5 MR. GOLDIE:  Martha Himadim, H-I-M-A-D-I-M.  6 THE COURT:  And the date of that?  7 MR. GOLDIE:  The interview with Gunanoot is, I am instructed, is  8 January 17, 1985, and with Martha Himadim is January  9 18th, 1985.  10 THE COURT:  All right.  And the spelling of Himadim again?  11 MR. GOLDIE:  H-I-M-A-D-I-M.  12 THE COURT:  Thank you.  13  14 (TAPE PLAYED)  15  16 MR. GOLDIE:  17 Q   All right.  You identify that as Mr. David Gunanoot?  18 A   That's David, yes.  19 Q   Now I am not sure, is Martha Himadim on a separate  20 tape?  I am instructed that her interview starts on  21 that tape but continues on to a second tape so I am  22 going to ask you to identify her voice from a second  23 type.  24 A   I recall that she was on that tape as well.  25 THE COURT:  Well, that tape then will be 770.  26  27 (EXHIBIT 770:  TAPES 5602 INTERVIEWS OF DAVID GUNANOOT  2 8 AND MARTHA HIMADIM BY N. STERRITT DATED JANUARY 17 and  29 18, 1985)  30  31 MR. GOLDIE:  The number of the next tape -- well, they are both,  32 both these take place are listed under 5602 and we  33 will -- if there is no objection, the two tapes will  34 be you under the same exhibit number, exhibit number  35 770.  36 Q   And you have confirmed, as you just did, Mr. Sterritt,  37 that Martha Himadim was on that tape at the same time?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   All right.  40 THE COURT:  You haven't identified your voice; do you wish to?  41 A   You were going to do that on the second tape, weren't  42 you?  43 MR. GOLDIE:  I think we ought to do that, yes.  44  4 5 (TAPE PLAYED)  46  47 MR. GOLDIE: 8889  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   You confirm that's Martha Himadim's voice?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Thank you.  4 The next tape, my lord, is 5631, and I -- dated  5 August, the tape is said to be dated August 9th, 1986,  6 an interview with a Alec Dennis.  7  8 (TAPE PLAYED)  9  10 MR. GOLDIE:  11 Q   That's Mr. Alec Dennis?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And the interview took place at Iskut, on August 9th,  14 1986 and I am instructed that Vernon Marion and Steve  15 Robinson were also present?  16 A   Yes, I think that's right.  17 Q   Who was Mr. Vernon Marion?  18 A   He was the -- at the time was the president of the  19 Tahltans, the Association of the United Tahltans,  20 spelled T-A-H-L-T-A-N-S.  21 Q   And Mr. Steve Robinson is one of the plaintiffs in  22 this action?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Now 5601.  25 THE REGISTRAR:  That will be exhibit number 771.  26  27 (EXHIBIT 771:  TAPE 5631 OF INTERVIEW OF ALEC DENNIS  2 8 BY N. STERRITT DATED AUGUST 9, 198 6)  29  30 MR. GOLDIE:  31 Q   Is, we understand to be an interview with Jessie  32 Olson, number 5601, held on January 10th, 1985.  33  34 (TAPE PLAYED)  35  36 MR. GOLDIE:  Now, you identify that last voice as that of Jessie  37 Olson?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   Is she sometimes referred to as Jessie Sterritt?  4 0 A   No.  41 Q   She is not Wii'goob'l?  42 A   No.  43 Q   Is she a hereditary chief?  44 A   She was the sister of Martha Brown, Kliiyem lax haa.  45 Q   Thank you.  46  47    THE REGISTRAR:  Exhibit 772. 8890  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 (EXHIBIT 772: TAPE 5601 INTERVIEW OF JESSIE OLSON BY  2 N. STERRITT DATED JANUARY 10, 1985)  3  4 MR. GOLDIE:  Number 5624, I am instructed this is an interview  5 with Walter Blackwater on September 9th, 1986, at  6 which there may be others involved.  I would like you  7 to assist in that regard, please.  8  9 (TAPE PLAYED)  10  11 THE WITNESS:  That's Martha.   Did you mention Walter Blackwater  12 at first?  13 THE COURT:  Yes, you said that is Walter Blackwater.  14 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, that's on the other side.  Oh, it's the second  15 tape of the same number, my lord, but that tape we  16 have just identified -- it is marked number 5624, part  17 one, and you have identified the voice that we heard  18 as that of Martha Brown and you stated the date at the  19 beginning of the interview as September 9th, 1986.  20 Now let us have the -- have the second, number  21 5624, part two, and this is stated to be Walter  22 Blackwater, September 9th, 1986.  So perhaps we could  23 have that one.  24  2 5 (TAPE PLAYED)  26  27 THE WITNESS:   That's Walter.  28 MR. GOLDIE:  29 Q   Whose voice is that?  30 A  Walter Blackwater.  31 MR. GOLDIE:  Could that be marked or a number alloted?  32 THE COURT:  773.  33  34 (EXHIBIT 773:  TWO TAPES OF INTERVIEWS OF MARTHA BROWN  35 AND WALTER BLACKWATER BY N. STERRITT DATED SEPTEMBER  36 9, 1986)  37  38 MR. GOLDIE:  That completes my identification of the tapes, my  39 lord.  I have a somewhat similar exercise with respect  40 to a number of the witness's notes and if I may hand  41 up to your lordship a binder.  42 Q   I want you first to turn to tab 23, Mr. Sterritt,  43 these are notes -- well, I have put Mr. Rush's letter  44 of October 21st in under the tab because he describes  45 it here.  "Please find enclosed photocopies of pages 1  46 to 20 of notes of general discussion of a gathering at  47 Moose Valley, as requested in your less of October 8891  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 6th, 1988."  2 Now, if you turn the page, would you confirm for  3 me, please, these notes are in your handwriting?  4 A   Yes, they are.  5 Q   What is the date?  Is that the 23rd or 28th of  6 September?  7 A   I don't know if there is any other way to tell, but --  8 Q   I am instructed that -- well, it's one or the other, I  9 take it, is it?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   All right.  And this was a meeting with the Carrier-  12 Sekani?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And was it -- it had to do with the overlap question?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   There are two names under the heading at the top of  17 the first page, Ed John and Murphy George.  Ed John, I  18 believe, has been identified as the president of the  19 Carrier-Sekani Tribal Council?  2 0 A   Yes, he was at that time.  21 Q   And who is Murphy George, please?  22 A   He is a member of the Takla Band.  23 Q   Are they members of the Carrier-Sekani Tribal Council?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Now, the rest of these names here, William George,  26 William French, and then I can't make out the next one  27 but the surname is French, Mark French, Joe Bob,  28 William Charlie and Marvin Abraham, are they all  29 Carrier-Sekani?  30 A   Some of them are Gitksan but they are members of the  31 Carrier-Sekani Tribal Council.  They live in that  32 area.  33 Q   Yes, if you look at William George, have you written,  34 as I make it out, "Sustut Dene name" and then "Gitksan  35 name", does that indicate that you regarded him as  36 Gitksan who nevertheless was a member of the Carrier-  37 Sekani?  38 A   His father was Gitksan and his mother was Sustut Dene.  39 Q   And is that why he has those two names?  40 A   You spell that S-U-S-T-U-T space D-E-N-E, that's  41 Sustut Dene.  Yes, I didn't catch his Sustut Dene name  42 and I caught a name that he used that was a Gitksan  4 3              name.  44 Q   That's Gitksan, that's the name immediately left of  45 the word Gitksan, is it?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   There were a number of instances, were there not, of 8892  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 inter-marriages with -- between the Gitksan and the  2 Sustut Dene?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   The next name, William French, would you just tell his  5 lordship, please, what you mean by the words beginning  6 with "his", is that "his father"?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Married what?  9 A   No, that's an Indian name.  10 Q   His -- I see.  His father was, and that's the name?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Is that a Gitksan name?  13 A   No, it's not.  14 Q   And the next line?  15 A   But his grandmother was.  16 Q   From Kuldo?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And then the next line?  19 A   It appears that his grandmother was William George's  20 father's mother, from that note.  William George being  21 the person up in the line above.  22 Q   Yes.  23 A  And that's what that's referring to.  24 Q   This then is an instance of a woman from Kuldo  25 marrying a Sustut Dene?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   The previous one had been an instance of a Gitksan man  2 8 marrying a Sustut Dene woman?  29 A  William George's father's mother was William French's  30 grandmother.  That's what this is.  31 Q   All right.  Now, the next name is somebody whose  32 surname is French?  33 A   That's Mary French.  34 Q   Mary French.  Thank you.  And she too is a member of  35 the Carrier-Sekani, but her grandfather was a Gitksan,  36 is that what that note means?  37 A  Well, Johnny French, his grandfather was Gitksan.  I  38 don't know whether -- I don't recall whether Mary  39 French's grandfather was Gitksan.  40 Q   I see. Then it's Johnny French who -- whose  41 forebearers inter-married?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   All right.  Now, the next name is Mark French, is that  44 Gitksan or a Sustut Dene name?  45 A   His grandmother was Gitksan, but his -- and his name  46 is -- I believe is a Gitksan name.  I don't recall  47 whether Mark is Sustut Dene or Gitksan. 8893  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q Joe Bob, your note indicates that his parents, his  2 immediate parents, one was Gitksan and the other was  3 Sustut Dene?  4 A Yes, his father was -- actually, he was from Fort  5 Graham, I don't think he was Sustut Dene, but his  6 mother was Gitksan.  7 Q And William Charlie, his father was Gitksan?  8 A Yes.  9 Q And you say was Lax Gibuu, and the word follows, the  10 two words following is Carrier-Sekani?  11 A No, it is not.  12 Q What is that?  13 A That's Wawsim Mediik it's spelled there, W-A-W-S-I-M  14 space M-E-D-I-I-K,  that's Wolf, but his father  15 adopted him into the Frog Tribe, Frog Clan, and gave  16 him that name and he is now considered Frog.  17 Q But is he —  18 A And he is Gitksan.  19 Q Is he Gitksan or Sustut?  20 A Gitksan.  21 Q Is he a member of the Carrier-Sekani Tribal Council?  22 A He lives there, yes.  23 Q Notwithstanding the fact that you would regard him as  24 a Gitksan?  25 A Yes.  26 Q Marvin Abraham, in this case, you have recorded that  27 his grandfather was from Kuldo?  28 A Yes.  29 Q But he too regards himself or is a member of the  30 Carrier-Sekani?  31 A Yes, he lives in that area.  32 Q Over on the next page, the first name I can't quite  33 make out what the given name is but it's somebody  34 West?  35 A Plasway, P-L-A-S-W-A-Y.  36 Q Thank you.  And he is from the Babine area?  37 A Yes.  38 Q And he is Carrier-Sekani?  39 A He is within that area, yes.  40 Q Yes.  And Margo French, is that a Gitksan or a  41 Carrier-Sekani name there?  42 A That's a Gitksan name.  43 Q Was she there as a Gitksan or a Carrier?  44 A I don't recall.  45 Q And Dick Joseph, he too is a Carrier but his  4 6 grandmother was from Kuldo?  47 A Yes.  I think that's the name from his grandmother -- 8894  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 okay.  Name of his grandmother from Kuldo.  2 Q But he too was there as a Carrier?  3 A I am not sure about that.  I mean, you --  4 Q You don't recall whether --  5 A When you say Carrier, are you referring Carrier-  6 Sekani?  7 A Yes.  8 Q Yes?  9 A Okay.  That could be different.  Alfred Joseph was at  10 this meeting and he is Wet'suwet'en from this area.  11 Q When I say Carrier, I am referring to Carrier-Sekani  12 and when I refer to Mr. Joseph I will refer to him as  13 Wet'suwet'en.  But in this case, the people that I now  14 want to deal with are all Carrier unless you tell me  15 otherwise.  Lily French?  16 A She is with the Carrier-Sekani Tribal Council.  17 Q Yes.  And she too has a Gitksan ancestry?  18 A I don't know about that but that name Spakgilbil is a  19 Gitksan name.  20 Q Then your next entry is "great grandmother, Lucy  21 Tiijii"?  22 A From great grandmother, Lucy Tiijii.  23 Q Does that -- she got that name from the great  24 grandmother, did she?  25 A Yes.  26 Q And that's, as you say, is a Carrier name?  27 A No.  28 Q Is it —  29 A No, that's a Gitksan name.  30 Q -- a Gitksan name?  31 A Yes.  32 Q So far as your knowledge goes, she was there as a  33 Carrier?  34 A As a member of the Carrier-Sekani Tribal Council.  35 Q Then you have got somebody from Necoslie?  36 A Necoslie.  37 Q N-E-C-O-S-L-I-E.  And if I understand it correctly the  38 father's name was from Kuldo; is that right?  39 A Yes.  40 Q And what's the next line refer to?  41 A Well, that's, whoever that is, that's either his name  42 or his father's name and that's a Gitksan name,  Dim  43 Sii Skimsim, D-I-M, space,  D-I-I, space,  44 S-K-I-M-S-I-M.  45 Q But he was somebody whose name you didn't catch?  4 6 A I didn't get his European name.  47 Q And he too was there as a member of the 8895  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Carrier-Sekani?  2 A   Yes, I believe so.  3 Q   And Johnny Abraham, as you have marked him as Dominic  4 Abraham's oldest son and he too was Carrier-Sekani?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   Peter Abraham, same thing?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And then we have spoken briefly of William French but  9 you are there recording what William French said to  10 the meeting?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   He said, "My dad from Kuldo, mother Sustut Dene, he  13 left Kuldo, died at the age of 104."  You understood  14 from that that William French's father had left Kuldo  15 and was living in Carrier-Sekani territory or Sustut  16 Dene territory?  17 A   I don't know where he went to.  But he said his dad is  18 from Kuldo.  19 Q   Yes.  You recorded what he said there, even though you  20 were not aware of where he went to?  21 A   Yes.  And he also says that his father's brother was  22 Wii gaak, which is also my Dad's name.  23 Q   Over the page.  Now, there is -- I am not sure  24 precisely what you're recording on that page, would  25 you tell me, please?  26 A   On the top, here on page 3?  27 Q   Yes.  28 A   On the top, that's the name of a person, that's a  29 Sustut Dene name, that's G-O-X, space, D-A-A, space,  30 D-A-I-Y, space,  Y-I-I and that person died and was  31 buried near Moose Camp in Moose Valley.  32 Q   By the way, where is Moose Valley in terms of or in  33 relation to the claims being made by the plaintiffs in  34 this case?  35 A   It's within the territory and it's just below Thutade  36 Lake, which is right in here, it's down in -- right in  37 this area here.  38 Q   Right in this area could be said to be the northeast  39 boundary below Thutade Lake?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Who stated that this man died near Moose Camp and  42 Moose Valley and was buried in Moose Valley, was that  43 William French?  44 A   Yes.  Just a minute.  I think it's William George.  I  45 don't think it's William French.  But there is no  46 name, I can't see a name on there.  47 Q   Was this interview or was this meeting taped? 8896  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   Yes, I think it was.  2 Q   I am instructed we have been unable to identify the  3 tapes on the document list, can you tell us how those  4 tapes would have been described?  5 A   I don't recall how they would be described.  6 Q   All right.  I am -- I will correspond with my friend  7 on that, my lord, as to the production of those tapes.  8 Now, continuing with page 3, the fact that a Sustut  9 Dene was buried in this area is a factor to be taken  10 into consideration in determining whose territory it  11 is, is it not?  12 A   Not necessarily.  13 Q   But I say is a factor which is taken into  14 consideration?  15 A   No.  16 Q   Never?  17 A   Not necessarily.  I understand they were going through  18 a hardship and died in that area but it's not  19 necessarily a factor in terms of ownership.  20 Q   Are you saying in this particular case you would not  21 regard it as a factor?  22 A  Well, buried near Moose Camp, it doesn't necessarily  23 mean it's within Gitksan territory in that area.  He  24 was just speaking.  25 Q   I am suggesting to you that it might be a factor that  26 the Carrier-Sekani would take into consideration in  27 determining whether it falls within their territory?  2 8 A   I don't know.  29 Q   This is within a -- this is a disputed area, is it  30 not?  31 A   It's an area that, yes, we were having discussions  32 about that area.  33 Q   By discussions you mean in an attempt to resolve the  34 so-called overlap?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   All right.  Now, there is a name on that page, Bob  37 Patrick, that is the name of the man who had his name  38 on a trapline on one of the linen maps you identified?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   All right.  Thank you.  Now turning over, at page  41 four —  42 A   That was the name in relation to the note by Mrs.  43 Louie, I think it was, about the fact that Bob Patrick  44 was there because of his wife who was -- his wife who  45 was a member of the house of Nii Kyap.  46 Q   And page four, what are you recording there, please,  47 "across river - Driftwood River"? 8897  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A  Well, Driftwood River is Xsan Togasxw, X-S-A-N, space,  2 T-O-G-A-S-X-W, and I don't recall exactly what's being  3 discussed here but I don't -- I don't recall what was  4 being discussed there.  5 Q   And then there is another line and five names and with  6 a bracket opposite and then T/L, and that's a  7 trapline, is it not?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   That indicates that those people trapped within that  10 area?  11 A   It says "trapline at" and I didn't catch it.  I don't  12 know what area he was talking about.  13 Q   And the next entry is William George?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And he is -- you're quoting him when he states, "My  16 father was a Gitksan and my mother was Sustut Dene?  17 A   Yes.  He is the one who ended up -- no, no, that's  18 right.  19 Q   And over the page, a third of the way down, there is a  20 reference to a legend?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And is this Steve Robinson telling that legend?  23 A   No.  24 Q   Who is telling that?  25 A   I think William George was.  26 Q   And when he speaks of Spookw, he is talking about  27 somebody whose legend that is?  28 A   No, he was talking about Spookw being around Hazelton.  29 He wasn't saying it was necessarily Spookw's legend.  30 Q   I see.  Thank you.  But did he tell that legend?  31 A   Yes, he went through some of it.  32 Q   And for what purpose, please?  33 A   To point out that he knew it.  34 Q   And it had some relationship to land?  35 A   I don't know whether he was telling it because of his  36 father who was from Kuldo and that's part of the Suwii  37 Guux legend, that's S-U-W-I-I space G-U-U-X, to point  38 out that he knew it or -- but he goes through the  39 different incidents in it and it's similar to the  40 legend that Mary McKenzie told.  41 Q   Well, he does so and he brings into it, however, the  42 Sustut Dene, did he not?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And the purpose of it was to support the claim of the  45 Carrier-Sekani to that particular portion of the land  46 that was under discussion, namely, the Moose Valley?  47 A   No, I don't think so.  He was telling it just to point N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 out that he knew it.  2 Q   I see.  Then over the page you have the second line --  3 what's the first line, something, I can't make it out?  4 A   On page six?  5 Q   No, seven.  6 THE COURT:  Seven?  7 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, my lord?  8 A   The first line.  9 Q   Yes.  10 A   "Stay with Sustut."  11 Q   Isn't that the conclusion of his telling that the land  12 should stay with the Sustut?  13 A   No, not necessarily.  That the people may have stayed  14 there.  That's all.  That the Gitksan may have stayed  15 there.  But I don't recall that was necessarily  16 speaking about land.  17 Q   No.  But the purpose of this meeting was to talk about  18 land, wasn't it?  19 A   It was to -- one of the main purposes was to do family  20 trees.  21 Q   But in relation to the claims, the overlapping claims  22 to the same territory?  23 A   Yes, to point out that or to determine just who was  24 speaking and on what basis.  To what extent the issues  25 that were being dealt with were being dealt with,  26 whether they were being dealt by Gitksan or Sustut  27 Dene and in the process determine that there were an  28 awful lot of people of Gitksan descent there.  29 Q   And of Sustut Dene descent?  30 A   Yes, and that a lot of the Gitksan lived with the --  31 on the Carrier-Sekani side and part of the problem was  32 that, as I identify it, a lot of the problem is that  33 the artificial division between the so-called Babine  34 Agency, which it was originally called, the Department  35 of Indian Affairs, Babine Agency, and the -- I think  36 it was called the Fort St. James Agency, and that in  37 fact Gitksan were living on both sides and owned land  38 in that area.  39 Q   And vice versa?  40 A   No, no.  There are Sustut Dene lands but there are  41 Gitksan living with the Carrier-Sekani who own land  42 within the boundaries that we have described here and  43 not Sustut Dene.  44 Q   The fact of the matter is, this inter-marriage has  45 come about and as a result there are people on both  46 sides of the claims boundary of mixed descent?  47 A   But that doesn't lose sight of the ownership by 8899  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Gitksan people in their territories.  2 Q   But can you answer my question, that on both sides of  3 the land claims territory there are people of mixed  4 descent?  5 A   There are Sustut Dene and Carrier people who live  6 within the various places within Gitksan and  7 Wet'suwet'en territories, but the ownership, they know  8 whose land is whose, and there are Gitksan people  9 living at Takla Lake and Fort St. James who know where  10 their territories are and they identified them as  11 being within these boundaries and it's the artificial  12 division of the Department of Indian Affairs that has  13 confused part of that issue.  14 Q   Well, Mr. Sterritt, you weren't talking about the  15 Department of Indian Affairs at this meeting, this was  16 an endeavour to fix boundaries of so-called aboriginal  17 territories, wasn't it?  18 A   Yes, and to do that by sitting down and doing or  19 discussing with people what their ancestry was, to  20 what extent they were Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en,  21 Carrier in general, but Sustut Dene.  22 Q   Right.  Now -- and there was confusion over the  23 boundaries because they were, in some cases, unable to  24 determine whether they were Gitksan or Sustut Dene?  25 A   No, we were able to determine who was Gitksan and that  26 people who are Gitksan from Gitksan houses, identify  27 with territories along and within that border there.  28 Q   Would you look at page 15, please.  Now, this appears  29 to be your notes of a statements made by Mr. Ray  30 Ezzoni or is it a lady?  31 A   Ray Ezzoni is from Metsantin, M-E-T-S-A-N-T-I-N.  32 Q   And what is she?  33 A  Who?  34 Q   Or he.  35 A   He.  He is a person from -- well, he is -- I think he  36 is Sekani.  Whatever it is, he is not Sustut Dene, is  37 from --  38 Q   And he is not Gitksan?  39 A   That's right.  40 Q   And "tape count 305" is an indication of where the  41 tape counter was when you were recording this?  42 A   Yes, must have been.  43 Q   And you have him saying "Thutade is my concern"?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   "And Metsantin is our place too.  We used to meet  46 Stikine here.  Sekani names here too."  Then you have  47 him stating, "If only people would really say who they 8900  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 are, Gitksan, Sekani,  Wet'suwet'en, this would settle  2 confusion boundaries."  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   He is the one who found confusion over the boundaries?  5 A   He was talking about the -- which is the point, which  6 was one of the reasons we were there, to sit down and  7 to trace the parents and grandparents of persons to  8 determine whether they were Gitksan, Sekani, Sustut  9 Dene or whatever, and to -- the point he was making  10 was a good one.  I agreed with him on that.  He made a  11 very good point.  And from the results of that  12 session, and from the work with the Gitksan and  13 Wet'suwet'en hereditary chiefs, to me it was clear and  14 to the hereditary chiefs that this was Gitksan land in  15 this area.  16 Q   Although, this man who you say made a very good point,  17 "Thutade is my concern and Metsantin is our place  18 too", he was stating that his people had a claim to  19 Thutade?  20 A  We don't have too much trouble with that in the point  21 that the boundary comes to the north shore of Thutade  22 Lake.  He could be speaking there -- he wasn't being  23 any more specific than that, and that's not a problem.  24 I don't see that as a problem.  25 Q   All right.  I want to ask about a name that we  26 mentioned, William Charlie?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   He was there as a Carrier?  29 A  William Charlie is Gitksan.  He is -- he was born a  30 Sustut Dene but his father adopted him from when he  31 was eight or ten years old, he sat him, his father sat  32 him right in front of him, he was from the House of  33 Miluulak, and he adopted William to be a Gitksan but  34 he lives in that area, he lives in Takla Lake.  35 Q   His father was Bear Lake Charlie?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And his father married a Sustut Dene woman?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And was he not quite clear that he would not recognize  40 any Gitksan rights in Sustut Dene territory, didn't he  41 say that?  42 A   I don't recall whether he said that or not but  43 that's -- we don't have any difficulty with that.  We  44 wouldn't either.  But the area that he identifies with  45 is Gitksan land, he is rightfully there through his  46 adoption and through his father it's Gitksan  47 territory. 8901  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Well, he wouldn't have any rights through his father,  2 would he?  3 A   He was adopted -- well, if he wasn't adopted he would  4 have had some rights through the law of Ammn Gwood,  5 that's  A-M-M-N, G-W-O-O-D, he was adopted by his  6 father, he -- which made him Gitksan as Wawsi Mideek  7 and he identifies with the territory that is in the  8 House of Miluulak, he is from the House of Miluulak.  9 Q   Would you look at page nine, please.  Midway down the  10 page, you have T. C. 432, is that the tape counter?  11 A   Yes, I imagine, yes.  12 Q   And it's William Charlie speaking?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And he says: "My father from Kisagaas", that's Bear  15 Lake Charlie?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   "A lot of Sustut Dene girls.  He", that is to say his  18 father, "married one"?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   Then I skip down to below that to "Mother was  21 Tsetsaut", that is to say, Sustut Dene?  22 A   I don't know whether he is talking about his mother  23 there or -- I --  24 Q   Well, she was a Sustut Dene?  25 A   His mother, yes.  26 Q   And then he said, "400 years ago the Sustut Dene came  27 to Bear Lake"?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   And "The Gitksan came in later"?  30 A   No, the -- he doesn't say they came in later there.  31 Q   He says "they came in and married the Sustut Dene one  32 by one", isn't that what he says?  33 A   He says they come in and married them one by one but  34 that doesn't speak to who was there before or after.  35 Q   Well, the Sustut Dene woman would have to be there in  36 order to be married, wouldn't they?  37 A   The Sustut Dene woman could have been anywhere in  38 order to be married.  39 Q   Well, when Mr. Charlie says "the Gitksan came in and  40 married the Sustut Dene one by one" he is talking  41 about them coming in one by one into the territory in  42 which these ladies were living?  43 A  Well, he could have been talking about marrying them,  44 doesn't mean they came in one by one, they could have  45 married the Sustut Dene woman one by one.  46 Q   Well, I suppose that's self-evident.  But your  47 recollection, you're recording of what he said isn't 8902  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 your recollection that he was talking about the  2 Gitksan men coming in after the Sustut Dene had come  3 to Bear Lake?  4 A   No, no.  Not at all.  5 Q   You deny that?  6 A   Not at all.  William Charlie considers himself  7 Gitksan, he -- that area, even at Bear Lake, in that  8 meeting, they -- before we left, they suggested that  9 we go to Burns Lake and talk to Mary Jack and her  10 sons, and that if Mary Jack and her sons wished to be  11 involved in this action, that that territory around  12 Bear Lake would then come into the action.  We went  13 and talked to Mary Jack and her sons and, as a result,  14 I mean they themselves were saying it, which in a way  15 was a contradiction for them to say they were farther  16 east from there -- pardon me, farther west.  But it  17 confirms what David Gunanoot had said about that area,  18 William Charlie himself, his territory is just south  19 of there, during these discussions there are further  20 notes with William Charlie where he identifies that  21 territory as being part of the territory of the House  22 of Miluulak and I am talking about just south of  23 Miluulak, south of Bear Lake, along Driftwood Creek  24 and you have to take all this into that context.  The  25 upshot of William Charlie's information at that  26 session was that the territory was Gitksan and that he  27 is Gitksan.  28 Q   Will you point that out to me, please, in these notes?  29 A   I don't have the notes, the other notes that come with  30 William Charlie right here.  31 Q   But in this session, William Charlie said that his  32 father said Bear Lake is Sustut Dene, not Gitksan, in  33 this session?  34 A   I don't see where he says that.  35 Q   Well, the second line from the bottom, William  36 Charlie, isn't he there quoting his father?  37 A   I don't know what he is referring to there.  38 Q   But I —  39 A   But I know what he said when he got into the whole  40 discussion in-depth, and there are notes on that, and  41 he identified the territories just south of there as  42 being the territory of the House of Miluulak, which he  43 belongs to by adoption.  44 Q   I put it to you that at this session, William Charlie  45 said that his father had said that Bear Lake is Sustut  46 Dene, not Gitksan?  47 A   No, I don't think so. 8903  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Now, there is a name referred to here as Peter  2 Abraham -- well, before I -- yes, page 12, William  3 Charlie is on another tape and he said, "I used  4 Driftwood to Dzil Djila  Mountain."  That is within  5 the present claims territory?  6 A   Yes, and he uses that as a member of the House of  7 Miluulak.  8 Q   That may be convenient for him but I suggest to you  9 that that was not what he stated his father had told  10 him?  11 A  Well, but there are also notes that go with that that  12 indicate Miluulak's territory and he as a member of  13 that house.  14 Q   Now, the next name below that is Peter Abraham, and he  15 is from Fort Graham?  16 A   Yes, I believe so.  17 Q   And he has spoken on behalf of the Carrier-Sekani?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Although you state that he also belongs to Miluulak?  2 0 A   I don't know what is meant by that.  21 Q   Well, isn't that the plain meaning of the sentence  22 under the words "from Fort Graham"?  23 A   Yes, but I am not sure what was meant by that.  24 Whether -- trying to think of -- I can't recall what  25 was meant by that.  26 Q   And he then proceeded to tell why, in his opinion,  27 this territory was -- belonged to the Fort Graham  28 Sekani?  29 A   Yes.  And he is referring to Bob Patrick, who was  30 there by reason of the -- which appears in the note in  31 the linen maps, as well as the information of David  32 Gunanoot and others, he is there because he is married  33 to a woman by from the house of Nii Kyap.  34 Q   He isn't relying only on Bob Patrick, he says on page  35 13, "we trapped this territory."  Then he lists a  36 number of people and Bob Patrick isn't one of them?  37 A   Joe Bob is there, Joe Bob is from the House of Nii  38 Kyap, Sarah's daughter is -- Leonard Thomas might be,  39 Sarah's daughter is from the House of Nii Kyap.  40 Q   Well, Joe Bob, you told me earlier, is half Gitksan  41 and half Sustut Dene?  42 A   No, no.  Joe Bob is Gitksan.  His mother is Gitksan.  43 His father was Bob Patrick.  44 Q   Well, I -- I will see from the transcript.  45 A   His father was from Fort Graham.  46 Q   He says "this territory all one with Fort Graham?  47 A   Yes, that's what he says. 8904  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 THE COURT:  Where does he say this?  2 A   In the middle of the age.  3 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  4 A   I don't know if he says territory, I think that's  5 country.  C-T-R-Y.  6 MR. GOLDIE:  7 Q   Yes.  8 THE COURT:  Is it convenient, Mr. Goldie, to adjourn?  9 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, it will be.  I won't be much longer.  10    THE COURT:  2 o'clock, please.  11  12     (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED FOR LUNCH)  13  14  15  16  17 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  18 a true and accurate transcript of the  19 proceedings herein to the best of my  20 skill and ability.  21  22  23  24  25  26 Wilf Roy  27 Official Reporter  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  4 7 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED AT 2:00) 8905  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  3 THE COURT:  Mr. Goldie.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you, my lord.  I was at tab 23 of this blue  5 binder, my Lord.  6 THE COURT:  Yes.  7 MR. GOLDIE:  8 Q   And do you have that in front of you, Mr. Sterritt?  9 A   Yes, I do.  10 Q   All of the discussion that you're taking down here was  11 in English, was it?  12 A  As I recall it was in -- it may have been in Gitksan.  13 These people, Joe Bob, William Charlie, William  14 George, they all speak Gitksan.  15 Q   Was this in Gitksan or English?  16 A   I think it was in Gitksan.  17 Q   I see.  And it's all recorded, taped that is?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Well, I said that I would correspond with my friend on  20 this, my lord, but I'm going to make a request for  21 this because we've been unable to find anything that  22 corresponds to a meeting on this date with whether  23 it's the 23rd or the 28th relating to Moose Valley.  24 Now continuing, who translated this for you then?  25 A   I was doing it myself.  I was listening as it was  26 going on.  2 7 Q   And the Wet'suwet'en names?  28 A   I was writing them down as I heard them.  29 Q   Um-hum.  And were the Wet'suwet'en and Gitksan people  30 speaking in the terms that you have represented on  31 page 14, Toodoggone and Thutade, they used those  32 words?  33 A   I think they did.  I think it may have been a mixture  34 of English, or I was picking it up.  There may have  35 been a mixture of Gitksan and English, I don't recall,  36 but I know they were speaking Gitksan as well.  37 Q   And on page 15, was Rae Ezonni speaking Gitksan?  38 A   No.  He was speaking English.  39 Q   And he -- you take down what he was speaking about on  40 pages 15 and 16, and on 17 you note that he ends at  41 the tape counter of 560.  Now, what follows after  42 that, CSTC, and then you have some names.  CSTC is  43 Carrier-Sekani Tribal Council?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And those are Carrier names after that?  46 A   Yes, they are.  47 Q   Um-hum.  And then the tape is also running with 8906  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 respect to, is it Len Thomas, or T-H-O-S, is acting  2 Chief Necoslie?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And he's Carrier?  5 A   I think he is.  6 Q   Yes.  And then at page 18 Mr. -- your father is  7 speaking on a new tape?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And is on page 20 -- is this Robert Jackson that is  10 speaking here?  11 A   Yes, it is.  12 Q   And he was in line for the name Miluulak but Alice  13 Jefferies took it?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And what is the next line, please, beginning with the  16 word "Concern"?  17 A   He's concerned with the lines belonging to the Sekani.  18 That's what I've written there.  19 Q   And what was that?  20 A  Well, he's concerned about what they're saying.  21 Q   Yes.  He says:  22  23 "A lot of the words are Gitksan.  24 Who are our relatives."  25  26 A  Well, I don't know that those two statements are  27 connected.  28 Q   I see.  In your recollection, were they?  29 A   I don't recall.  30 Q   And does he say that he was born at Djil Djila.  31 A   Yes.  He was born at Djil Djila.  That's the mountain  32 just east of the first landing we made when we went on  33 the over-flight with the lawyers and the judge and  34 myself and some other people.  35 Q   And he was responding to statements by some of the  36 Carrier people about their claimed ownership of that  37 mountain, was he not?  38 A   I don't know whether it was so much a response one way  39 or the other, rather than him just simply speaking  40 about what -- about what he knew.  41 Q   And then at 425 you say:  42  43 "Neil explains what RJ said."  44  45 Is that you or your father?  46 A   I think it was me.  47 Q   And what did you mean by that?  Was he speaking in 8907  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Gitksan and you were translating it?  2 A   I believe he was, and there were some people there who  3 did not understand Gitksan.  4 Q   Yes.  And the next speaker was James Morrison?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And then it says:  7  8 "End of tape 2 side B."  9  10 And that completes those notes?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Well, my lord, I make that request that the tape be  13 produced.  Now, I want to go to the beginning of this  14 binder, my lord.  I'm just going to go through this  15 quite quickly to have certain parts identified.  Under  16 tab 1 there are some extracts of documents that we  17 received on September 2nd.  The first is a typed  18 version, Arthur Sampson is the informant?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   Did you take this down, or was it taken down and given  21 to you?  22 A   It was taken down and given to me.  23 Q   Do you know who the person was who took it down?  24 A   No, I don't.  It was part of what Chris Harris gave  2 5 me.  26 Q   I see.  This is part of the material that he gave you?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   I see, all right.  Now, looking at page 2, is it your  29 understanding that -- and I'm referring to the second  30 paragraph, is it your understanding that Miluulak at  31 one point claimed territory around Ingenika River?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   That's not in the claims area now?  34 A   No, it's not.  35 Q   And somebody came to the conclusion that it didn't  36 belong to Miluulak?  37 A   No.  The -- this is an area well west -- or pardon me,  38 well east of the claims area, and is an area that is  39 not being claimed by the Gitksan.  40 Q   Yes.  But at -- and we'll see some more of this later,  41 is it not a fact that some of the members of the House  42 of Miluulak say that that area around Ingenika River  43 belongs to that house?  44 A   They -- they have said that, but there is -- as far as  45 I know there are no -- there's no one from the House  46 of Miluulak saying that today.  47 Q   You didn't accept it when you -- 390?  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A  Well, I accepted at some point that the Gitksan were  2 in that area, yes.  3 Q   Well, I have yet to see any map which includes that  4 area as part of the land claim?  5 A   It's not in this claim.  6 Q   No.  And I say you didn't accept their claim?  7 A  Whose claim?  No one is claiming that area.  8 Q   My question is that you didn't accept it?  9 A   It's not —  10 Q   You didn't pass it on to Marvin George to be included  11 in the claims area, did you?  12 A   It's not up to me to accept or reject, it's the people  13 of the House of Miluulak.  14 Q   Well, at the time when the first information was  15 passed on to Marvin George they were claiming that  16 house -- that area, were they not?  17 A   No.  I don't believe so, no, they weren't.  18 Q   I see, all right.  On the right-hand side of that  19 page, right up at the -- there's some written words  20 "Mr. Ross, 1827 plus or minus".  Is that your  21 handwriting?  22 A   Yes, it is.  23 Q   And to what are you referring there, please?  24 A   The man working there -- in that sentence:  25  26 "When, later, the Tsetsaut went to the store for  27 food, the man working there noticed that the girl  28 was wearing ear-rings much more beautifully  29 wrought than those that the local women had.  The  30 man then knew that the girl was from the Kitsegas  31 area."  32  33 The storekeeper at the time was indicated in other  34 ways that there was a man by the name of Mr. Ross in  35 that area, and so I wrote at some point to the Hudson  36 Bay archives to determine if there was a Mr. Ross at  37 Bear Lake in or about that time, and subsequently  38 determined that there was, and I can't remember the  39 exact dates.  40 Q   Well, you wrote down here "1827 plus or minus"?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   Is that from information you received from the  43 provincial or from the Hudson Bay archives?  44 A   It may have been after that that I wrote and then  45 determined that it was for a period of about a year.  46 I can't remember exactly what dates he was there, but  47 it was about 1826, 1827 that Mr. Ross was there. 8909  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   And the store therefore is located where?  2 A   Right at Bear Lake at the north -- near the north end  3 of Bear Lake on the east side.  4 Q   Right.  So this was part of your historical research?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   In support of the land claims?  7 A  Well, to see when people -- when people refer to a Mr.  8 Ross or a man being there, I wanted to see if there  9 was someone there, and it turns out there was.  10 Q   Yes?  11 A   He was also at Babine Lake.  12 Q   My question was this was in support of your research  13 for the land claims?  14 A   It was part of my research.  15 Q   For the land claims?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Now, the next page is the -- it records Mr. Sampson's  18 view of how Miluulak was supposed to have a claim to  19 the whole area, the Ingenika River?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   But you say they've not changed that today?  22 A   No.  23 Q   All right, thank you.  Next over is a couple of pages  24 dated January 23rd, 1988.  By the way, do you have any  25 idea of the date of the Chris Harris material under  26 tab 1 here?  27 A   No, I don't.  28 Q   You received it when?  29 A  Along with his other information before he died.  30 Q   19 --  31 A  Well, he died somewhere around 1975, '76.  I can't  32 remember what the date was.  33 Q   Thank you.  Now, going back to the next couple of  34 pages, this is an extract of your notes for January  35 23rd, 1988?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And with you were Art Matthews, junior, senior, Ivan  38 Matthews and Mr. Grant?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Over the page, you record the first line "Gitksan  41 Boundary at Legate Creek".  And then four lines below  42 that "Gitksan on north side Tsim Shian on south side;  43 is that correct?  44 A  Where are you?  45 Q   I'm not asking you whether that is correct, I'm asking  46 you if my reading for "Tsh" on S side" is correct as  47 "Tsim Shian on south side"? 8910  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   The Gitksan boundary at Legate Creek is at a mountain  2 called Hahl Yee, H-A-H-L space Y-E-E, that's what  3 that's saying.  Then it says "This is at Legate  4 Creek".  Well, the mountain is just north of the  5 Legate Creek, the Gitksan is on the north side of that  6 and the Tsim Shian on the south side.  7 Q   Right, thank you.  Who are you quoting when you wrote  8 that down, please?  9 A   Either one or both of Art Matthews senior and junior.  10 Q   On the right-hand side at the bottom, if I read it  11 correctly, it says "Art Jr. went with Fred Johnson".  12 That's Lelt, is it?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   "George Williams" —  15 A   Yes.  16 Q  17 "To this place, Fred named it, Art was quite young  18 then, before Fred went blind, August 1948 or '49.  19 Fred told Art not to cross Legate Creek.  It  20 belongs to Tsim Shian."  21  22 Is that something that Art Matthews, Jr. told you at  23 that time?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   That suggests the boundary was Legate Creek, but other  26 information that is at your disposal tells you  27 otherwise?  28 A   Yes.  That point up on top there, the mountain is Hahl  2 9 Yee.  30 Q   The next two pages, is this your handwriting?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   Can you place a date on that for us?  33 A   No, I can't.  34 Q   The second page within a line on the right-hand side  35 you say "This is accord to Alex Bolton".  Alex Bolton  36 is a Tsim Shian?  37 A   Yes, he is.  38 Q   And you were recording something of what he told you?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And at the bottom of that box it says:  41  42 "But A.M.'s says it's on south-west side KK Lake  43 not south-east side."  44  45 A   Right.  46 Q   A.M. is who?  47 A  Art, it looks like.  Well, it's Art Matthews.  I don't 8911  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 know whether it's senior, or -- I don't know whether  2 it's senior or junior or both of them.  3 Q   All right.  4 A   In either event, that area is not within the claim  5 area, it's a mountain that both are referring to.  6 Q   Yes.  I'm not questioning you about that.  Would you  7 turn over the next separator, please, the page  8 beginning north -- or "N. Gitksan territories", 9  9 September, 1986, informant Sam Morrison, James  10 Morrison, and you recorded it, is that right?  11 A   I believe so, yes, yes.  12 Q   And over the page at the bottom of that there's -- is  13 that Moose Valley, the last three lines?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And you say this is Wii Minosik's, is that correct?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Who are you quoting there, please?  18 A   Sam, I believe.  But what he's referring to is up --  19 it's not actually Moose Valley, he's talking about up  20 Moose River.  21 Q   Um-hum.  22 A   Up in that area where Wii Minosik's territory is.  23 Q   And then over the next page, this is an interview you  24 have with Mr. Ben McKenzie, Sr.?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   On June the 11th, 1979?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   On page 2, about two-thirds of the way down, it states  29 "Harold Price Creek", and then below that:  30  31 "Johnny Wilson both sides, lax seel Gidem guldoe."  32  33 Who are you recording there?  34 A   I'm not sure what you mean, who am I recording.  35 Q   Is this what Mr. Ben McKenzie was telling you?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   And then over the next one is -- one page.  That is  38 your drawing and handwriting?  39 A   Yes, it is.  40 Q   And what is the date, please?  Is it March or November  41 9th, 1976?  42 A   I think that's March the 9th.  43 Q   And the property that you have marked as Geel and then  44 with an arrow pointing to it followed by these words:  45  46 "used to belong to Stikine.  A lot of names are  47 Stikine." 8912  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2 Are you recording what you've been told there?  3 A   Yes, I am.  4 Q   And who was your informant, please?  5 A   I think it was -- I think that was Steve Morrison, if  6 I recall, and that's consistent with our other  7 information.  8 MR. GOLDIE:  Over the page.  9 THE COURT:  Before you — what is that word in the top left,  10 Kwinageesda?  11 A   Yes.  He's talking about Delgamuukw's territory  12 farther down the Nass River at Kwinageesda.  13 THE COURT:  What's the next word; is that clams or claims?  14 A   Yes.  That's -- Geesda means, as I recall, is clams.  15 THE COURT:  I see.  16 A   It comes from a head-dress that people were wearing  17 that was made of clams, fresh-water clams.  18 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  19 MR. GOLDIE:  20 Q   Over the page, this is January 10th, 1985, Wrinch  21 Memorial Hospital.  These are your notes, are they?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And this is with -- you were seeing Martha Himadin?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And then I've attached a page -- well, four pages  26 further on?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Who is your informant with respect to the statement  29 "Maxhla Sa Giible belongs to Johnny Morrison", who was  30 your informant for that, please?  31 A   That was Martha Himadin.  32 Q   And that's the same thing with respect to the  33 following sentence?  34 A   Yes.  And that's consistent with what James Morrison  35 was talking about.  36 Q   I'm not sure what you mean by that.  The statement  37 that I'm referring to says Susan Morrison?  3 8 A   Simon.  39 Q  40 "Simon Morrison's dad is Lax Gibuu and related to  41 Johnny Morrison.  That's why Simon is here, they  42 don't really own it."  43  44 To what is "it" referring to?  45 A   The territory on that side.  It was -- James explained  46 it, that Simon Morrison buried his father and ended up  47 with that territory, and Martha is referring to it 8913  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 from her side of the information.  2 Q   Do you agree with her that they don't really own it?  3 A  Well, that's part of the information, and the other  4 part is what Sam and James have explained to me about  5 their father Simon.  6 Q   Yeah.  Simon was Waiget?  7 A   Yes, he was.  8 Q   Thank you.  And over the next one, this appears to be  9 dated October the 8th, 1986, Alex Jack, Steve  10 Robinson, Neil Sterritt.  I think I want to refer --  11 this is all, of course, in your handwriting?  12 A   Yes, it is.  13 Q   Over the page:  14  15 "Moose Valley.  Me and my brother-in-law trapped  16 there.  Belonged to Lax Seel from Kaska."  17  18 The Kaska is Sustut Dene?  19 A   I don't know whether -- well, that's the Sustut Dene,  20 but whether that's the same group or not, I don't  21 know, but that's what he says there, yes.  22 Q   And you're informant there is?  23 A  Alex Jack.  24 Q   Alex Jack?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And he says:  27  28 "Wis an skiit - Lax Seel own it."  29  30 A   That's right.  31 Q   And what is that referring to, please?  32 A   The Lax Seel at Wis an skiit is from the husband of  33 Miluulak.  34 Q   But his view was that the Lax Seel from Kaska owned  35 Moose Valley?  36 A  Well —  37 Q   That was his view as you record it?  38 A   That's what he said there, yes.  39 Q   And next is 17th of January, 1987.  This is an  40 interview with Mary Johnson.  Anybody else with you at  41 that time; those names in the upper right hand?  42 A   I don't think -- I think it was just Mary and I.  43 Q   Yes?  44 A   I don't recall anyone else being there.  45 Q   And she had certain views about the ownership of  46 places and you noted Mary is mistaken?  47 A   No.  What she was mistaken about, there's three lakes 8914  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 there.  There's Gwinagees Lake, there's Fred Wright  2 Lake and there's Williams Lake.  Fred Wright Lake is  3 actually -- we're talking about three different lakes.  4 Fred Wright Lake in fact is Dam Gwinagiisdxw, D-A-M  5 space G-W-I-N-A-G-I-I-S-D-X-W, and Williams Lake is  6 the -- is the lake in her territory.  She continued  7 to -- when she saw the name Fred Wright on the next  8 lake north she thought that that's the one that should  9 be within her territory.  Fred Wright Lake is  10 misnamed.  It should be the name on Williams Lake, and  11 that's what she's referring to.  12 Q   My question is you stated she is mistaken.  When did  13 you make that note, please?  14 A   I think I made it either then or shortly after.  I  15 don't recall exactly when I did.  16 Q   Yes.  And you were discussing with Mary Johnson, who  17 was then Antgulilbix then, was she not?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   A territory over a map?  2 0 A   I don't remember whether I was or not.  21 Q   I see.  Would you turn over, please to the next one  22 headed "Phillip Turner".  The date is the 14th of  23 March, 1988?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And this is information given you by Mr. Turner?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And he says "Luulak is from Kispiox"?  28 A   Yes.  And he's referring to originally.  29 Q   Yes?  30 A  At sometime in the past.  31 Q   Yes.  And then he says:  32  33 "There were three of them who don't belong to  34 Kitwangwa.  Lelt, Luulak, Wii Hlengwak."  35  36 All three of those are plaintiffs in these  37 proceedings?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   The holders of names, I should say, or plaintiffs in  40 these proceedings?  41 A   Yes, and once again, he's talking in the past there.  42 Q   Yes.  And then he says:  43  44 Little Olive/Big Olive really belongs to" --  45  46 And I can't make out the next name.  What is that,  47 please? 8915  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   Gasgabaxs.  2 Q   Yes.  And that's a named plaintiff, is it?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And Little Olive is now claimed by Luulak?  5 A   Yes.  And that's my understanding of it as well.  6 Q   Yes.  And the boundary between Luulak and Wii Hlengwax  7 is big Olive, is that right?  8 A   It's near Big Olive.  9 Q   But it certainly doesn't belong to Gasgabaxs?  10 A   No.  11 Q   According to your latest understanding.  All right.  12 The next one is May 7th, 1984.  And you are  13 interviewing Phillip Turner.  By the way, is Phillip  14 Turner a named plaintiff?  15 A   No.  16 Q   He holds a high name though, does he not?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   Or did he not?  In what house?  19 A   He speaks on behalf of Yal, George Turner, but I'm not  20 sure if he's in the House of Yal or in the House of  21 Hax bagwootxw.  22 Q   Um-hum.  But at any rate, this was an interview May  23 7th, 1984, Phillip Turner, George Turner, Delbert  24 Turner, Don Ryan and yourself?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And you're setting out a story that Mr. Phillip Turner  27 is telling that was told to him by Agnes McDames?  2 8 A   Right.  29 Q   All right.  Over the page, midway down "Little Olive,  30 Big" I take it "Olive", and "Gasgabax near Pacific".  31 That's a repetition of what he later told you some  32 four years -- what he told you some four years later,  33 is that right?  34 A   Yes, it is.  35 Q   The next one is 19th of January, 1987.  And this is  36 with Phillip Turner and R.B. Jackson, Jr., is it?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And the -- my next is two pages further on, it's  39 headed at the top page 3, and then at the left-hand  40 side "Pacific re: Lalt", or is that Lelt?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   And then:  43  44 "Gasgabaxs owns on east side of Skeena at Pacific."  45  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Is that consistent with the present claim? 8916  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A  Well, this is the same thing that he's saying all  2 along, but I think it's at this point that Gasgabaxs  3 moves away where we mentioned that Gasgabaxs moves  4 north up into the Kitwanga area.  He points out  5 Gasgabaxs, I think meaning family there, started to  6 die off like flies.  And that's when they move up into  7 the Kitwanga area.  He's talking about a long time ago  8 here.  9 Q   Yes, I understand.  10 A  And that -- well, that's what he's referring to.  11 Q   And then over the page he's telling a story that  12 explains, does it not, why one group of people don't  13 own any land, at least in his eyes?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   And what group is that?  16 A   I'm not sure just -- I don't know who he's referring  17 to there in the names that are mentioned just under  18 the number 6 on page 6 there.  19 Q   But then on the third paragraph he switches to the  20 present when he says "Fred Johnson doesn't come from  21 Kitwanga".  That's the present Lelt, isn't it?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   All right.  24 A  Which is -- well, Fred Johnson was born in that area.  25 I think what he's referring to is that Lelt and Luulak  26 came -- moved into that area some time ago, a long  27 time ago.  28 Q   And then over the page, which is page 8 of that  29 particular sequence, you have set down:  30  31 "Luulak doesn't really own Little Olive."  32  33 Is that what Mr. Phillip Turner told you?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And then under tab 2, which is extracted from another  36 journal, the first one is December 12th, 1976.  We've  37 looked at this before, but this is your handwriting or  38 printing, is it?  39 A   Yes, it is.  40 Q   And the last three paragraphs on that page beginning:  41  42 "She says her trapline boundary is on height  43 of land" --  44  45 And going right down to the bottom of that page, is  46 that all what Sophia Mowatt told you?  47 A   Yes, as I recall, yes. 3917  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  Q  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  A  10  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  21  22  Q  23  A  24  25  MR.  GOLDI  26  THE  COURT  27  28  A  29  THE  COURT  30  A  31  32  33  THE  COURT  34  A  35  36  37  38  39  THE  COURT  40  A  41  THE  COURT  42  A  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  GOLDI  45  Q  46  47  A  And she has certain views about the boundary of -- I'm  referring to the second paragraph, I quote:  "Both Steve Robinson and Sophia say Boulder Creek  is south boundary of Gitksan, Sam Jones  of Kitseguecla, not Porphyry Creek."  Is that information that you acted upon?  To the extent that well, it was explained by Walter  Wilson when he was in cross-examination about that  situation there, and I think I also explained it when  I was in direct here.  Yes?  That the boundary is at Porpyry Creek, and that the  Wet'suwet'en understand the boundary to come down  through Porphyry Creek and that the families will get  together to discuss that.  Yes.  That is a matter that's not resolved?  It's -- I don't think it's a problem area, it's  something they wished to discuss, and I don't see a  problem there.  No.  My question was it hasn't been resolved yet?  Well, I don't know -- well, I guess --no.  It's not a  matter that's been dealt with yet.  EI:  Over the page.  :  Mr. Sterritt, I thought Porphyry Creek was just  north of Moricetown?  It is.  :  How could that be south boundary?  South boundary on that side of the Gitksan -- on that  side of the Gitksan territory, on that side of the  claim area.  :  Will you show me on the map?  Sure.  This is Hazelton right here, this is Moricetown  right here, and we don't have the Wet'suwet'en  territories on yet, and this is Porphyry Creek right  in here.  So it's on the south side of the claim area,  in that area.  :  On the south side of the?  Gitksan --  :  Gitksan portion of the claim area?  That's right.  That's what I'm referring to there.  :  Thank you.  r:  Next one is dated below the drawings of the snowshoes  January 4th, 1977.  That's your writing, is it not?  Yes, it is. 391?  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   "Kitseguecla Land Claims meeting".  And you give those  2 present and you state, and I quote:  3  4 "Effort to resolve external boundary of  5 Kitseguecla.  No luck."  6  7 That is to say that there was no agreement reached at  8 that meeting as to the external boundaries of what,  9 Kitseguecla?  10 A  As I recall, there wasn't enough people at that  11 meeting to deal with it.  I think that was what that's  12 referring to.  13 Q   What is the external boundary of Kitseguecla?  14 A   Oh, the external boundaries of the house territories  15 of the Kitseguecla chiefs.  16 Q   At any rate, you didn't -- you weren't able to even  17 get agreement from those who were present?  18 A  Well, without them all there I couldn't.  19 Q   Um-hum.  The next item -- the next page you have  20 earmarked some of your own speculation as to a  21 boundary?  22 A   I don't know.  Where are you?  23 Q   Midway -- on page 34, midway down in the paragraph  24 beginning with the words "George Milton spoke of his  25 boundaries".  26 A  Oh, yes, yep.  27 Q   And you say, and I quote:  28  29 "I think this would be point where tramway comes  30 over the mountain."  31  32 And you've marked that as "NJS Speculation"?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   Yes.  Now, next set --  35 A  Which it turns out to be, as a matter of fact.  36 Q   Is January 7th, 1977.  These were notes made just  37 after you talked to Mr. Gunanoot?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   And over the page.  Is this part of the same  40 recording?  41 A   I don't know.  It's six pages apart.  42 Q   Yes?  4 3 A   I don't know.  44 Q   But the next page is your handwriting?  45 A   Yes.  4 6 Q   And you say:  47 "It seems David is very pleased with himself for 8919  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 helping me to sort out the northwest, north and  2 northeast land claims boundary."  3  4 That was the boundary that was subsequently changed?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   Next page, and that begins with the words "S. Morrison  7 to Norma Barnes, 1972".  Is that an indication that  8 this interview was in 1972?  9 A   It's some information that Norma Barnes had, and she  10 was talking to Steve Morrison.  11 Q   What is the significance of the 1972?  12 A  Well, she talked to him in 1972.  13 Q   But she talked to you much later than that?  14 A  Oh, yes, yep.  15 Q   You have no idea what the date would be for that?  16 A  Well, it would be somewhere in the sequence of this  17 journal.  18 Q   And item number 4:  19  20 "Bell-Irving River is boundary between Gedemguldoe,  21 Thomas Danes and Wolf Tribe of Kitwancool."  22  23 Did you understand that to be what Steve Morrison told  24 Norma Barnes in 1972?  25 A   No.  There's a note there of what James Fowler told  26 Peggy Morgan, and I don't know where I got that, but  27 that's what -- that's not from Steve Morrison to  28 Norma, that's from Jimmy Fowler to Peggy Morgan.  29 Q   And Mr. Fowler is a Kitwancool?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And Peggy Morgan?  32 A   She is from Kitseguecla, I think.  33 Q   The next set, November 27th, 1977, and this is in your  34 handwriting, and it sets out a retelling of Niigyap  35 from David.  The David is David Gunanoot?  36 A   Yes.  He's talking about the migration of Niigyap from  37 Gitangus to Kitsegas.  38 Q   Over the page, about two-thirds of the way down I ask  39 you to note the sentence that begins -- the sentence  40 that reads "Now they had lots of fish".  Have you  41 found that?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And it goes on:  44  45 "So then Niigyap and his nephew went to" --  46  47 What is that word, please? 8920  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   Gwin Wiijick, G-W-I-N space W-I-I-J-I — I put C-K  2 there, but that was how I spelled it in the '70's.  3 Q   Should be I-X?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   That's Mount Tommy Jack?  6 A   Yep.  7 Q   And he goes on to say "Now Niigyap claimed this  8 place"?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   It is claimed now by Gwinin Nitxw and Luus, is it not?  11 A   Yes.  And that's part of the adaawk of Niigyap, and  12 that they came through that area and claimed it.  But  13 there were subsequent events that I'm not necessarily  14 aware of that led to the territory being in the hands  15 of Luus and Gwinin Nitxw.  16 Q   Yes.  But you were accurately taking down what Mr.  17 Gunanoot told you in November of 1977?  18 A   Yes.  I believe he said this also in his commission  19 evidence.  20 Q   Yes?  21 A   He said the same thing.  22 Q   And on the next -- in the next set there's a page  23 taken out of the next set.  This is again your  24 handwriting?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And the last note is:  27  28 "This differs from what David told me before, i.e.  29 in-breeding was the reason for the move."  30  31 Do you remember him telling you two stories with  32 respect to the territory at Thutade Lake?  33 A   I don't know whether we're talking about Thutade at  34 that time or Gitangus.  35 Q   Gitangus, I'm sorry?  36 A   Gitangus, G-I-T-A-N-G-U-S.  37 Q   Yes?  38 A   I think only to the extent for the reason for the  39 move.  I think that it was my note, but the issue  40 could have been both, and I can't recall what the  41 other reason was he told me for the move.  42 Q   Yes?  43 A   Oh, the threat from the Stikines as well as the  44 families being too small, but I don't recall.  45 Q   The next set, January 31st, 1979.  This is another  46 interview with Mr. Gunanoot, and you note that he was  47 talking about the Spatsizi again.  That is a long way 8921  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 out of the present claims area?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And over the page.  You record him as stating:  4  5 "David tried to pinpoint Deep Canyon Creek for me.  6 Said it must about be the first big creek  7 up-stream on north side Babine River.  Called  8 Shenismike on map.  This is Niigyap's ground."  9  10 That is now territory now claimed by Miluulak?  11 A   There's a fishing area in there that Miluulak, as I  12 recall, acknowledges is Niigyap's, and a small area  13 around that, and that's the area we're talking about.  14 Q   Is it the area that Mr. Gunanoot was describing to you  15 at the time?  16 A   It's the same area that we're talking about.  17 Q   Well, let me put this to you.  Is your recording of  18 what he said accurate in this extract?  19 A   I think it's close, yes.  20 Q   Yes, all right.  Tab 3, the first one is dated  21 Saturday, January 19th, 1980.  This is your  22 handwriting, I take it?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   I refer you to the last line above the lake.  You say:  25  26 "Hunting ground from east end Morice Lake to  27 Poplar Lake."  28  29 Is that what you were told, and if so by whom?  30 A   I don't recall.  I don't recall who told me that.  31 Q   Tab 4.  John Green Feast, November 11th, 1982.  On the  32 right-hand side:  33  34 "Albert T says Aluukw owns all of Xsuwiidin."  35  36 That's Albert Tait?  37 A Yes.  3 8 Q And:  39  40 "Richard Morrison owns all of Magangiis."  41  42 Is that right?  43 A   No.  That's right — yes.  That's what I've got.  44 Q   Is that inside or outside the claims area?  45 A  Well, Magangiis, I did another work with Albert on  46 this later and he clarified that, and Magangiis  47 belongs to Kitwancool. 8922  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Yes?  2 A  And Aluukw owns the -- around the area around  3 Xsuwiidin.  4 Q   Who was your informant -- oh, Mr. Tait was the  5 informant of what you're recording here?  6 A   Yes.  And he points out Kitwancool starts at  7 Gitwangwalkw.  But I talked to him later and he  8 clarified that.  9 Q   And the next one is November 12th, 1982.  I'm not sure  10 who -- you seem to be recording information from three  11 parties with respect to the ownership of a fishing  12 hole at Andimaul.  "Moses Brown says it's Wiigyat".  13 Somebody who you haven't identified says "Sakim hii  14 gookx", and "Stanley Williams says it's Luulak, Lax  15 Seel from Kitwangak".  Do you recall who was giving  16 you that information?  17 A   No, I don't.  18 Q   Over the next set.  This is an interview on November  19 17th with Albert Tait and Pete Muldoe, and with  20 Solomon Jack and yourself on November 18th, 1982?  21 A   There's two different discussions there.  22 Q   Yes, I understand.  They're separated by a day, are  23 they not?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And in the upper right-hand corner of the page 132,  26 you have "Map 94D".  That's the national topographic  27 series map?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   And you were discussing boundaries and territories  30 with Mr. Solomon Jack on that map?  31 A   I believe so, yes.  32 Q   And you record him as stating, do you not --  33 A  And place names.  34 Q   Pardon?  35 A   Place names.  36 Q   Place names, yes.  You record him as stating that  37 Gwinanitx traps to the east side of Slamgeesh and  38 Moses Stevens to the west side of Slamgeesh.  You  39 recorded that accurately, did you not?  40 A   Yeah.  That's what we have already discussed, I  41 believe, two weeks ago.  42 Q   Yes.  And under tab 5, the beginning of this set, and  43 again there's just three pages in it, but it appears  44 to be an interview with your -- with Stanley Williams  45 on March 8th, 1980?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   And I've asked you this before, about two-thirds of 8923  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 the way down the page on the left-hand side "Gilla Wo  2 empty now".  That's an Eagle house that was  3 de-populated, was it?  4 A   No.  I think that Gilla Wo, the name had not been  5 passed on to someone at that point.  6 Q   All right.  Well, that was the name of the house, was  7 it not?  8 A   No.  I think we're talking about an individual here,  9 and that the name is empty at that point, the person  10 isn't -- there's no one who has that name.  11 Q   But wasn't that the name of a house in the Eagle clan?  12 A   I'm not sure whether it's a house or a part of the --  13 well, I know that the Eagles are all closely related,  14 and whether it's a separate house -- or I think they  15 are all the same, within the same -- they go on  16 different parts of Eagle territory, but I think that  17 they're the same house.  18 Q   And then the next page is 32.  We had -- we've just  19 been looking at page 26.  And is Mr. Stanley Williams  20 still your informant here?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   Yes.  At the bottom of that page you have written  2 3 down:  24  25 "Walter Wright gave Stan his name, Niist Hook and  26 gave Sam Legate Creek to trap and he wants Stan to  27 go to George Wright and learn info about it.  28 Stan doesn't want."  29  30 Would you explain that, please?  31 A  Well, I think Stanley had helped out in a feast either  32 that Walter Wright had put on or that they had  33 discussed before Walter Wright died, and then it was  34 the feast for Walter Wright, I'm not sure which it  35 was, but Stanley -- or Walter Wright was going to give  36 Stanley the name of Niistahuuk, N-I-I-S-T-A-H-U-U-K,  37 which is a Kitsegas name, and he also wanted Stanley  38 to go and see -- I don't know whether George Wright is  39 Walter Wright's brother or nephew or -- but he wanted  40 Stanley to go and see him and learn more about that  41 territory, and Stanley, according to this, didn't  42 either, didn't want to go and do that or to take the  43 name.  I'm not sure what he's referring to there.  44 Q   And he didn't take the name?  45 A   That's what I understand, yes.  46 Q   Right.  Under tab 6, this appears to be referable to  47 at least three dates.  I want to direct your attention 3924  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 to the right-hand side under May 24th, 1981.  I have  2 recollections of a conversation between S. Robinson  3 and yourself on May the 11th.  You're simply writing  4 down some 10 days or 13 days later what your  5 recollection was of a conversation with Mr. Steve  6 Robinson?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   And you say, or you record Mr. Robinson as saying  9 that:  10  11 "Gitanmaax boundary is at Boulder Creek."  12  13 Now, Gitanmaax is the Village of Gitanmaax?  14 A   Yes.  And -- yes.  Within which would be the house  15 territory that we're referring to here.  16 Q   And you record him as stating that:  17  18 "Sam Jones owned and trapped this territory on the  19 east side of the Bulkley, Gidumguldo, et cetera  20 (Lax Seel) own the land but originally it was Wolf  21 under Spook."  22  23 Mr. Robinson was Spookw?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And then on the next page he stated:  26  27 "However, old Spook was witch-crafted and went  28 along to Manson Creek to die.  This was a long  29 time ago (100 years).  30 Steve said his mother was told by Frank Clark  31 (Gidumgaldoo) to go to this hunting ground and use  32 it because it really belonged to Spook."  33  34 And what was -- what -- can you identify the territory  35 and who is claiming it today?  36 A   That's the territory of Djogaslee, D-J-O-G-A-S-L-E-E,  37 and he's referring to an incident that happened at  38 some point in the past and that it ended up in the  39 hands of the Lax Seel.  40 Q   And under tab 7 you record another conversation with  41 Mr. Robinson on December 31st, 1981, and after  42 referring to the seating in the feast hall under the  43 numeral 3, you say:  44  45 "Yagosip is Andims'ay in Spook's House meaning she  46 holds the treasure chest (the land) Spook has  47 no land." 8925  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Is that intended to reflect the information he was --  2 he gave you at that time?  3 A   No.  The -- I mean Spookw does have land.  4 Q   I'm not asking you that question, Mr. Sterritt, I  5 asked you does that accurately represent what he told  6 you at the time?  7 A   I don't know whether he said that on the bottom or  8 not, I'm not sure.  9 Q   Can you recall who your informant was if he didn't say  10 it?  11 A   I don't know whether I put that down or what.  But  12 what he was referring to was that Yagosip held the  13 treasure chest which everybody -- when they refer to  14 the treasure chest, they're talking about the land,  15 and that she looked after it.  I don't recall the  16 basis for that bottom statement.  17 Q   It is in your handwriting?  18 A   That's my handwriting.  19 Q   Yes?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And you don't know whether that records what he told  22 you at the time or whether you were reflecting  23 information from some other source?  24 A   It wouldn't be from -- not necessarily some other  25 source, or whether I just was putting something down  26 there myself, I don't recall what he said.  He may  27 have referred to that, he may have said that, and that  28 Yagosip holds the treasure chest, the land.  29 Q   But you're suggesting that you, of your own accord,  30 wrote the last line?  31 A  Well, I wrote it, but it's probably in the context  32 that he said that, and that Yagosip was the one who  33 looked after the land, Yagosip being close to Spookw.  34 Q   Yes.  The best of your recollection now, though, is  35 that the source of the information you got for  36 everything that's on that page is Mr. Steve Robinson  37 himself?  38 A   I believe so, yes.  39 Q   Over the next one is dated March 12th, 1982.  This is  40 an interview with Thomas Wright, is that correct?  41 A   I think it was, yes, yes.  42 Q   And you -- you're recording what he told you, that he  43 was very sad he had not been involved in decisions re  44 Wii Gaak?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   Who was holder of that name?  47 A  My father. 8926  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   Yes.  And he went on to say that Simon -- who is  2 Simon, please?  3 A   That would be his older brother.  4 Q   And who was a holder of the name?  5 A   He was the holder of the name, yes.  6 Q  7 "He says Simon still hasn't been buried yet."  8  9 Because a particular song has never been sung?  10 A   The Sinaahlw, S-I-N-A-A-H-L-W, and in fact, Thomas did  11 sing it, as I recall, at the death of one of his  12 brothers, either Jack or Henry.  13 Q   Yes.  And he stated that, and you have recorded him as  14 saying that:  15  16 "Simon acquired his name in a totally traditional  17 way.  He completely earned the name.  He says he  18 was the last to do this."  19  20 That's an accurate recording of what he told you?  21 A   Yes.  And I think he was -- what happened was Kenny  22 Campbell, the young man took the name after Simon  23 died, and within two or three years Ken Campbell died,  24 and the name just sat there for I think about ten  25 years or more until my dad took it, and Thomas was  26 concerned about that, and as I understand, my dad went  27 and talked to him about it, and they -- Thomas was  28 satisfied with the way things were after that  29 discussion that they had.  30 Q   And over the page, there is a recording of a meeting  31 with your father?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   On March the 19th, 1982?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And you're recording there what your father told you  36 Thomas Wright told him, is that right?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And that information included that second paragraph,  39 and I quote:  40  41 "The hunting ground was acquired by Wii Gaak,  42 (Thomas' grandparents) after the Hudson's Bay  43 Company came because the ground wasn't occupied.  44 This would be after 1820 at Bear Lake."  45  46 That's what your father told you Thomas Wright told  47 him, is that right? 8927  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   That's what he said, but --  2 Q   All right, thank you.  3 A   But my father, the family at Wii Gaak was at Gitengas  4 for hundreds of years, if not thousands, and this  5 territory was in the family of Wii Gaak for a long  6 time before that, so my dad had talked to him about  7 that and he was just relating to me what Thomas said,  8 but that territory there had been in the family for a  9 long long time before 1820.  10 THE COURT:  We'll take the afternoon adjournment, Mr. Goldie.  11 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court. Court will adjourn.  12  13 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 3:15)  14  15 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  16 a true and accurate transcript of the  17 proceedings herein transcribed to the  18 best of my skill and ability  19  20  21  22  23 Graham D. Parker  24 Official Reporter  25 United Reporting Service Ltd.  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 3928  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  MR.  GOLDIE  4  Q   1  5  6  7  8  A  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  MR.  RUSH:  15  16  17  MR.  GOLDIE  18  THE  COURT:  19  MR.  GOLDIE  20  Q  21  22  A  23  Q  24  25  ]  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  i  31  32  MR.  RUSH:  33  34  MR.  GOLDIE  35  MR.  RUSH:  36  MR.  GOLDIE  37  Q  38  39  40  A  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  47  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS)  Mr. Sterritt, I want to speed up this identification  business a bit.  Under tab 8, I am going to ask you to  tell me if anything that I -- as we go through this,  isn't in your handwriting; do you follow me?  Yes.  Tab 8 is under your handwriting?  And then under the  second page, this is your handwriting?  Yes.  And then the third separator?  Yes.  Hold on.  The third separator or the third page?  There were three pages and I thought you just dealt  with two.  :  I am sorry -- no, it's the third separator.  Are you up to December 20th.  :  I am up to December 20th.  I understand "Arthur Sampson to M. J. S. by  telephone", that's yours, is it not?  Yes.  And then on the lower right hand side of the page,  January 8th, 1983, recording information from Pete  Muldoe?  Yes.  And then over the next one, this is January 11th,  1983, and records a -- on the return from a meeting  with the Nisga'a over the overlap issue, and Mr.  Gunanoot pointed out information to you with respect  to Legate Creek?  I am sorry, you have lost me.  I don't know where you  are.  :  January 11th, '83.  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  On the right-hand side, the David that is referred to  there as pointing to a mountain on the other side of  Legate Creek is David Gunanoot?  Yes. And that's An Hahl Yee.  Where is that, please?  It's on the --  Where is that in the note?  It's not in there but that's what I am referring to.  I am not asking you to enlarge upon the note, I am  asking you to identify the note and if there is  something about the note that I don't understand I 8929  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 will be asking you about that.  2 The next page --  3 MR. RUSH:  My lord, if there is a context to a note, surely, the  4 words, the note ought to have some -- ought to be some  5 room for the witness to explain the note.  6 THE COURT:  Well, yes.  7 MR. RUSH:  The notes are contextual, and I think if Mr. Sterritt  8 sees that there is something in the note that requires  9 an explanation, I think he should feel free that --  10 THE COURT:  If it's merely a question of when it's done.  No  11 question that he has a right to explain I think Mr.  12 Rush may be right, Mr. Goldie. In the normal course  13 when you are putting in this much information, this  14 way, it can so easily be overlooked.  Mr. Rush  15 wouldn't have any way of knowing from the witness's  16 answers that he identified the handwriting whether he  17 wants to make a comment about the comments in the  18 notes or not.  Seems to me what Mr. Rush suggests  19 would be the best way to proceed.  You can do it the  20 way you want to do it, which is perfectly acceptable,  21 if the witness sees something he wants to explain,  22 seems to me he should be allowed to do so.  23 MR. GOLDIE:  I don't have any concern over that, my lord.  I  24 really -- it sounded a little perhaps more adamant  25 than it needed.  All I wanted to do is to ensure that  26 the witness realized that he did not have to.  27 Certainly if he feels that there is some  28 misinterpretation or misunderstanding, I prefer it to  29 be cleared up.  30 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  31 MR. GOLDIE:  32 Q   And then over the page, the second paragraph.  33 THE COURT:  Page 74?  34 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, it is, second paragraph from the top.  35 THE COURT:  Yes.  36 MR. GOLDIE:  37 Q   "D. G. also said P. B.'s father owned all along left  38 side of Legate Creek."  That's David Gunanoot said  39 Peter Brown's father?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Next page, again, I just want to be clear that the  42 informant in the last two paragraphs on page 76 and,  43 of course, the first paragraph on page 77, is Mr.  44 Gunanoot?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   Tab 9 -- I should point out, my lord, that these tabs  47 are arranged according to the plaintiffs' number on 8930  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 their list of documents.  2 THE COURT:  Yes.  3 MR. GOLDIE:  4 Q   The first page is somebody Daniels to Neil Sterritt,  5 1983, can you make out who the Daniels is, please?  6 A   I think that's Joe Daniels.  7 Q   And it's about the "Shandilla fish site conflict  8 between Emily Daniels and Buddy Williams."  Has that  9 conflict been resolved?  10 A   I don't know.  11 Q   Is that the only information you have on that  12 conflict, that is found on this page?  13 A   I don't know whether it appears elsewhere in my notes,  14 my field books.  15 Q   Okay.  And Mr. Daniels is the only informant for this  16 particular note; is that right?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   All right.  Next one, this is interview re place  19 names, the hole is punched out but it's 1983.  Your  20 informant is David Green, Margaret Wilson and Martha  21 Himadim?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And next one is June 23rd, 1983, three pages, this is  24 with respect to one of the helicopter trips?  No, this  25 is to Bear Lake?  26 A   Yes, it is.  27 Q   9:00 p.m.  These film numbers are stills or what?  28 A   Stills.  29 Q   Right.  And over on the last page, the note with  30 respect to what David Gunanoot said is a correct  31 statement of what he told you?  32 A   Yes.  Her father was Haiwas and she buried him and she  33 was allowed to use that territory but she told David  34 and his brothers that when she died they could no  35 longer go there.  And that's the territory of Haiwas.  36 Q   Tab 10, the feast, the first extract is from the feast  37 of or the infant daughter of somebody Morrison?  3 8 A   Rhonda.  39 Q   Rhonda Morrison, July 4, 1983.  And on the right-hand  40 side is information that was given you by Pete Muldoe  41 and Albert Tait?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And over the page, that's -- that information, with  44 particular reference to the second paragraph on the  45 left-hand side, is from Albert Tait, "Luus owns from  46 fifth cabin just for the winter"?  47 A   Yes, I believe that's from Albert. 8931  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   And then does the rest of that read "Along Shilalou to  2 Xsi lax uui, otherwise Dawamuxw owns Shilalou, have I  3 got that correct?  4 A   Yes, and that would be consistent, he is referring to  5 Dawamuxw there there but that's consistent with Walter  6 Blackwater's information about where Luus is on the --  7 at the end of Shilalou or Xsi Lax uu.  8 Q   And then over the page, James Morrison is your  9 informant for the left-hand side; is that correct?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Is he the person responsible for the information that  12 you have recorded in the second paragraph?  13 A   Yes, he is.  But other people told me that as well,  14 although I don't know whether it's necessarily five  15 mile area.  I am not sure about that.  But there is an  16 area around Kisgegas.  17 Q   That anybody can use?  18 A  Well, it's -- they agreed under certain conditions  19 that people from the village could go there and get  20 wood and animals, if necessary.  21 Q   Common usage?  22 A   I don't know.  I think that James Morrison described  23 this in his evidence.  But I don't know whether you  24 would call it common usage or not.  25 Q   If you have no personal knowledge, and you rely upon  26 what Mr. Morrison has stated, please say so.  27 A  Well, other people have mentioned to me that there was  28 an area around Kisgegas that the members of the  29 village could go to.  30 Q   All right.  And Stanley Williams is the informant for  31 the right-hand side?  32 A   Yes, he is.  33 Q   All right.  Over the page, a meeting at Takla Lake,  34 September 9th, 1983, what was that meeting, please?  35 A   That was a trip that -- I think it was James Morrison,  36 David Gunanoot, David Green, Glen Williams and Alfred  37 Joseph and I went on.  We went over to have  38 discussions with our neighbours about the territories  39 there, about the Gitksan territories around Bear Lake.  40 Q   Yes.  And is William George the source of the  41 information that is found in the balance of that page  42 under his name?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   Specifically, that Two Lake Creek is a boundary?  45 A   Yes, and what he is saying there, that -- well, I  46 don't know whether he is saying that is a boundary or  47 a boundary in that area but he is referring to Smaex, 3932  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  9  Q  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  THE COURT  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  THE COURT  30  31  A  32  THE COURT  33  A  34  MR. GOLDI  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  47  who is from the house of Tsabux and Alec Bob, who is  from the house of Nii Kyap.  Alec Bob is Carrier-Sekani, is he?  Alec Bob is Gitksan.  He lives at Takla Lake.  Is he not a member of the Carrier-Sekani Tribal  Council?  Yes, I suppose he could be considered that.  But he is  Gitksan, he is from the House of Nii Kyap.  And Two Lake Creek is now within what is now claimed  by Miluulak?  Yes, that's Muluulak territory.  Over the page, is the information on the left-hand  side from William Charlie, at least all of that below  his name?  I think it is, yes.  And specifically, the statement "Sekani is Thutade  people?  Yes.  And over the page, dated September 12th, 1983 --  :  What does that mean Sekani is Thutade people?  Well, he is referring to the Sekani people being up  around Thutade, which is consistent with what Ray  Ezzoni was saying -- well, said later, I believe in  1986, that's our understanding as well that the  Gitksan border goes to the north side of Thutade Lake  and that on that side is -- well, whether it's Kaska  or Sekani or what, I don't know exactly how those  terms fit in.  :  Does the Gitksan border go to the north shore of  Thutade Lake or not?  North shore.  :  North.  You claim all of the lake?  Yes.  When Exhibit 5 was filed in May of 1987 that was not  the case, was it?  That was the area.  We discussed that and the basis  for that being removed at that time.  But on map 9-A,  that is the case.  Yes.  As well as earlier maps, going back to 1975 or '76.  Over the page, September 12th, 1983, who was the -- is  the -- who were the people discussing what is in the  first paragraph there, "discussion on Djil Djila"?  The people from Takla -- that note there doesn't go  with that date, September 12th.  It's just on the  facing page.  It follows from the previous page. 8933  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Q   That goes from -- follows from September 9th then?  2 A   Yes.  And it's the same discussion and there they are  3 talking about the boundary being at -- well, they say  4 just west of Xsan Togusxw, top of the mountain, and  5 then they say later that it goes farther west than  6 that.  7 Q   I asked you who the discussions were with and --  8 A  Well, it would be the people from Takla, included  9 William George and, well, whoever was in that --  10 Q   The people listed on the first page?  11 A   I don't know whether it was all of them but some of  12 them did, yes.  13 Q   All right.  Thank you.  14 And tab 11, this appears to be two separate  15 entries, one is June 26th, 1984, and the right hand  16 page is September 10th, 1984, and the informant with  17 respect to the right hand page is Perry Sampson.  But  18 midway down the page, you say, "Also from Barbeau  19 reminiscences", that is not something that Mr. Sampson  20 gave you, that's something that you dug out yourself;  21 is that right?  22 A   Yes, it is.  It looks like I discussed those place  23 names with Perry.  24 Q   The ones at the top of the page or all of them?  25 A   No, no, if you take item number two under Perry's name  26 there, on the bottom where it says "Perry thinks",  27 then there is -- he thinks that what Barbeau has  28 recorded is Lax ganselda.  29 Q   You think that you had the Barbeau material in front  30 of you when you were discussing this with Mr. Sampson?  31 A   I think I might have had his list here.  I am not  32 sure.  I don't know whether I had the Barbeau material  33 in front of me.  34 Q   Anyway, you you were using it as an aid to his  35 recollection?  36 A   I was trying to see what -- no, I was trying to see  37 whether the way that Barbeau wrote them had any  38 relationship to what Perry Sampson knew.  In other  39 words, Lax ganselda, that doesn't say much, it doesn't  40 say anything.   But the closest that Perry could come  41 to it was to say that it could be Lax ganselda.  42 Q   Over the page, please.  October 17th, 1984, this is a  43 discussion with Albert Tait and Pete Muldoe at  44 Kispiox?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   And it is with respect to Walter Wilson's concern  47 about Gyolugyet's territory, South Nass River? 8934  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   What exactly was his concern?  3 A  Well, it wasn't clear in terms of how they were in  4 there and he pointed out that their cabin was at that  5 lake there, just below the Nass River, and Albert  6 pointed out that they had access from the lake -- that  7 they stayed at that cabin and they could trap in that  8 area but that their territory was on the north side.  9 Q   I don't see any reference to trapping, simply talks  10 about ownership.  Your recollection is that there was  11 a discussion of trapping as well?  12 A  Well, I don't recall whether it was or not.  But I  13 haven't -- let me read these notes.  "Gyolugyet owns  14 inside this area but Djogaslee owns a line too,  15 including the first big lake within the territory of  16 Gyolugyet."  17 Q   Yes.  18 A  And I think that's what that referred to.  That  19 Djogaslee had some rights to go from the Nass River  20 over to that big lake.  And he had a cabin there and  21 Walter Wilson described that in his cross-examination  22 as well.  2 3 Q   And —  24 A   He referred to it, I think, as An jok, the place where  2 5 they camped.  26 Q   Mr. Walter Wilson's rights were derived from Daniel  27 Skawill?  28 A   That's in terms of the territory on the north side of  29 the river, yes.  30 Q   Yes.  Now, is the -- are the rights on the south side  31 recorded on map 9-A?  32 A   I am not sure if they are or whether -- no, they are  33 not recorded on map 9-A.  And I am not sure whether  34 they are mentioned in the affidavit or not.  But  35 Walter Wilson did refer to it in his cross-  36 examination.  37 Q   Next item is apparently a record of a feast, is there  38 a date that we can assign to that apart from the dates  39 on the notebook itself?  40 A   No, I —  41 Q   Well, let's put it this way, is it within the year  42 April 3rd, 1984 to April 13th, 1985?  43 A  Where do you arrive -- where do you get that date?  44 Q   This extract is taken from your notebook.  If you turn  45 back to immediately following tab 11.  You see that  4 6 page is what was typed and what we were given.  47 I am told that that's incorrect, that those datings 8935  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 are ours, but the extracts are taken within that  2 period.  3 A   Just one minute.  It appears to me to be the funeral  4 feast for Ellen Johnson who died on February 27th,  5 1985.  6 Q   So it would be immediately after that?  7 A   It would be within the week after that.  8 Q   And the right hand -- the last paragraph on the  9 right-hand side, "Elsie says Henry Wilson keeps  10 telling her Waiget has land down near Cedarvale."  Who  11 is Elsie, please?  12 A   That would be Elsie Morrison.  13 Q   Does she told a name?  14 A  Waiget.  15 Q   But the claim map does not show any land for Waiget in  16 the Kitwanga area, does it?  17 A   No, Elsie doesn't know of any and has not claimed any  18 in that area.  19 Q   Tab 12.  This is an interview with Mr. Walter  20 Blackwater, and that's your handwriting, is it?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   The last entry on the left-hand side, you record the  23 basis for Dawamukw's ownership of the Galaanhl Giist  24 area?  25 A  Well, that's what was indicated then but I have  26 nothing -- even in discussions with Walter later that,  27 demonstrates that.  2 8 Q   But at the time he told you that Dawamukw got that  29 territory by virtue of a peace settlement?  30 A   That may have happened but I don't know anything about  31 it and he never elaborated on that or explained  32 anything about that.  33 Q   That may be the case, Mr. Sterritt, but I am asking  34 you if that's what he told you at this time?  35 A   I believe he did, yes.  36 Q   Well, you wrote it down so we must assume he did?  You  37 didn't make that up, did you?  38 A   No.  39 Q   Tab, the next item, Phillip Turner, an interview in  40 1985, would you look at the right-hand side, the first  41 couple of paragraphs, did you record accurately that  42 Mr. Turner said that the Niidam Lax ooks is or belongs  43 to Hak bagwootxw, even though Gwis Gyen is trying say  44 it's his?  45 A   Yes, I did, but Niidam Lax ooks -- well, I recorded  46 what I heard but Niidam Lax ooks is over in that area  47 with Gwis Gyen. 3936  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  Q  2  A  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  15  Q  16  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  28  29  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  THE COURT  38  A  39  40  MR. GOLDI  41  Q  42  A  43  Q  44  A  45  Q  46  THE COURT  47  A  And Gwis Gyen is, of course, Stanley Williams?  Yes.  And Hax bagwootxw is, of course, Ken Harris?  Yes.  Next is a record of a Bear Lake trip.  Is the  paragraph on the right-hand side beginning "William  Charlie says boundary", is that a record of what Mr.  Charlie told you?  Yes, he is.  And that's part of the overlap?  Yes, but later, in Moose Valley, he pointed out that  the area east of there is the area that -- of his  father and when he was adopted it's the area he went  into and that he was from the house of Miluulak.  The next one is a discussion with your father, re the  territory of Haaxw, H-A-A-X-W, November 5, 1985?  Yes.  Does this record information your father gave you  about some territory in the north that was said to be  owned by Haaxw?  It's just north of Hazelton.  Just north of Hazelton?  Yes.  Is there still territory owned by -- claimed by Haaxw  in that area?  No.  That area is an area where Haaxw had a fishing  site and may have had some other rights in that area  but it's not an area that's claimed by Haaxw.  And it  was Thomas Wright who had mentioned this to my father.  Under tab 13, the first extract is not dated, and I am  not sure that we have any way of dating it, but it  records information from a variety of informants?  Yes.  And over to the right-hand side, that records  information from Thomas Wright?  Yes.  :  What's that second name, Jackson, Catherine Jackson?  Kathleen Jackson, yes.  She is from the House of  Hawaaw' and Nii Kyap.  r:  What's the next sentence, Thomas what?  Where, on the next page?  No, no, same page, same reference.  Oh --  Thomas something owns Gwiis Xsigwin?  :  Thomas, is it?  Gwiis Xsigwin gyilaa. 8937  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 MR. GOLDIE:  2 Q   Is it Thomas's father?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   And then he says, "Wii gaak owns near there" in fact  5 Wii gaak now claims Gwiis Xsigwin gyilaa, does it not?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Tab 14, the -- there is a series of pages here which  8 all appear to be connected, has this got to do with  9 researching a trapline dispute which was heard before  10 Mr. Mortimer, the Indian Agent, in 1932?  11 A   Yes, those are some notes that I took from some  12 minutes of that meeting.  13 Q   Yes.  14 A   Or a record of that meeting, whether they are minutes  15 I don't know.  16 Q   And you did this on the 28th of January, 1986?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   And where did you find those minutes, please?  19 A   I think they came from records in Ottawa or in the  20 provincial archives.  I am not sure.  21 Q   But you correctly described it as being a trapline  22 dispute between Amos Williams and Phillip Johnson?  23 A   I think that's how the correspondence was headed up.  24 Q   And you were satisfied that that's what in fact was  25 being dealt with by Mr. Mortimer?  26 A  Well, it's what Mr. Mortimer might have referred to  27 it, but it would be hereditary lands.  28 Q   You went to it because you wanted to see what these  29 various people were saying?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And the first page of that, you have a statement  32 "Malii - grandfather of Amos Williams"?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And somebody is the grandfather of Phillip Johnson and  35 at the lower part of the page you have, and I quote:  36 "This contradicts his earlier statement."  To what are  37 you referring there?  38 A   I don't know, I don't know what that is.  Oh, I think  39 if you put 22 beside 23, then it could be referring to  40 what they are saying on that side of the page.  41 Q   I see.  42 A   That's a -- my comments on the left side.  43 Q   All right.  Thank you.  44 THE COURT:  You mean 22 is opposite 23?  45 A   If you pull it and put it like so.  46 MR. GOLDIE:  47 Q   And 24 would be opposite 25? 393?  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   And 26 opposite 27 and so on?  3 A   That's right.  4 Q   All right.  Next is page numbered 49 in the upper  5 right hand corner dated February 17, 1986.  The Susan  6 Marsden that you're having this discussion with is the  7 expert witness?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And the same thing with respect to Heather Harris?  10 A   Right.  11 Q   Now, is that recording information that Heather Harris  12 gave you which she had obtained from Russell Stevens?  13 A   I think that's right, yes.  14 Q   Next page is 53, Saturday, 22nd of February, 1986.  15 This is your writing, is it?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   Is this recording a discussion that took place at a  18 meeting of the family of Art Kusick?  19 A  Are you on -- which one are you looking at?  20 Q   53, Saturday, February 22nd, 1986.  21 A   I have gone beyond you, I think.  Just a minute.  What  22 tab are you in, 14?  23 Q   Yes.  24 A  And it's dated 22nd of February?  25 Q   Yes.  26 A   Yes.  Okay.  Page 53?  27 Q   Yes, in the upper right hand corner.  And I am asking  28 you if this records conversations which took place at  29 a meeting of the family of Art Kusick?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And the next page is blank, because that's the page  32 opposite and nothing -- you had no recording of  33 anything on that page?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   But the next page, 55, is a continuation of that?  36 A   Yes.  37 Q   All right.  Thank you.  Next page is 67, the informant  38 is Neil Sterritt.  Under April 1st, 1986, second  39 paragraph, Jessie Sterritt is speaking about a  40 mountain, is that her statement through your father or  41 is that a statement that you got directly from her?  42 A   I think that's from -- directly from Jessie.  I don't  43 recall whether it's directly or whether it's through  44 my father.  I don't know.  45 Q   All right.  Over the page, the — this is May 9th,  46 1986, and this time the informant is in fact Jessie  47 Sterritt? 8939  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Thank you.  Tab 15, the first page under that, August  3 22nd, 1986, meeting with a Alex Bolton and is that Jim  4 McDonald?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   Are they both Tsimshian?  7 A   No.  8 Q   Just Mr. Bolton?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And what is Jim McDonald?  11 A   He was a person that worked with the Tsimshian.  I  12 think he did some research for them.  13 Q   All right.  Next one is 25th of August, 1986, your  14 informant was Fanny Wilson?  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   And she is speaking there of an area that is  17 considerably north of the land claims area, is she  18 not?  19 A   She is talking about the area north of Kluatanton.  20 Q   Which is considerably north of the land claims area,  21 is it not?  22 A   It's just on the north -- it's outside the territory  23 on the north boundary, yes.  24 Q   Then the 28th of August, 1986, "T-F Glen Williams", is  25 that a telephone discussion?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   And the Susan who is referred to in the left-hand side  28 under 29th of August, 1986, is Susan Marsden?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   The next page is the 19th of September, 1986, the last  31 two lines on the left-hand side, "This has to be  32 straightened out as many people have told me  33 otherwise.  See above."  What has to be straightened  34 out?  35 A  Well, I am trying to work out where that mountain is  36 and the basis for Xsim xsan, who was the father of the  37 Wrights, why he was in there, and my father had talked  38 to Martha Himadim, Johnny Moore, and a number of  39 people, and they had said that he was there because of  40 marriage to the House of Wii gaak, and he was in the  41 area.  But some people had said that he was in that  42 area and that's what I was trying to work out.  43 Q   Next one, "Notes from 1976 interviews I held with  44 various people."  Is this a collection of the or the  45 beginning of a collection of notes made at some date  46 in time after the interview or are these made at the  47 time the interviews were held? 8940  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  No, these were made -- those notes were made in 1976  and I reviewed them and noted them in this field book.  Yes.  And at the bottom, you're recording what Mr.  Arthur Sampson said about Miluulak owning Ingenika  River?  Yes.  All right.  The next one, 21st of September, 1986,  again this is -- your informant is your father and  James Morrison?  Yes.  And you don't remember who actually told you about  that?  I think it was James -- well, they both told me about  Tom Campbell and then I think James was referring to  the information about where he was, what area he  belonged to.  Next one, page -- is page 51, 28th of September, 1986.  This is a telephone to Mr. George Asp?  Yes.  And he was at that time head of the Tahltan Tribal  Council?  I don't think so.  What was he at that time?  I am not sure what his capacity was at that time.  He was a Tahltan?  He is a Tahltan.  And he had gathered up a great deal of information  about the Tahltans?  I think he headed up the work that they did.  All I  was trying to determine here was where the people were  who lived underground.  Yes.  Next one, the first 1st of October, 1986, page  61, this records the results of your reference or your  work with the Barbeau-Beynon material?  Yes, I went through some microfilm.  And is that so with respect to the following pages, 62  and 63 and 64 and 65, 66, 67?  Yes.  On page 66, where you say "Mrs. Cox - informant",  that's taken from the Barbeau-Beynon material, isn't  it?  Yes.  Mr. Cox was long dead before --  She died in -- I knew Mr. Cox quite well.  Spent about  four years with her.  But she died, I think, by 1960.  Yes.  Tab 16, this is -- records an interview with  Doris Morrison on the 20th of August, 1986, and was it 8941  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 she who stated, "The Eagles own from Lome Creek to  2 Fiddler Creek.  She said we never cross the creek  3 (Fiddler)", she is the source of that information?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   They do now, do they not?  6 A  Well, they always have, yes.  7 Q   But —  8 A   I don't know whether there she is referring to when  9 they come down and come up the trail.  They follow the  10 trail and go up the right side of the creek.  11 Q   But they do cross the creek now?  12 A   Yes, they do.  13 THE COURT:  What's that word, "we follow the trail up on the —"  14 A   Right side of the creek.  When you're facing up the  15 creek they go up the trail on the right side.  16 MR. GOLDIE:  17 Q   Yes.  Tab 17, this is from material we received in  18 June, this page is divided into two, a line drawn  19 across it.  Can you put any date on the information  2 0 that you got from Art Sampson?  21 A   I think it's 1976.  22 Q   "And it was he who stated that Thutade Lake was owned  23 by Bob Patrick from Fort Graham. He died in Fort St.  2 4 James"?  25 A   Bob Patrick, yes.  Bob Patrick was the man who was  26 married to a lady from House of Nii Gyap.  27 Q   And the next page, is Arthur Sampson still in or is it  28 Alec Brown?  Well, I don't know.  Who is the informant  29 with respect to "Miluulak owns Ingenika River"?  30 A   That would be Arthur Sampson.  31 Q   And the next page, is that word, is the first word  32 there on the left-hand side, problems?  33 A   Problem.  34 Q   Problem.  "Shedin Creek, according to Jack Wright, is  35 Wii minosik but is now registered to Wilman Johnson  36 who is son of Martha Ridsdale - Wolf and Jeffrey  37 Johnson --" what is that in brackets?  38 A   Fireweed.  39 Q   Fireweed of Kitseguecla?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Where did that originate, the --  42 A   I think it's my misunderstanding because Wii minosik  43 is -- Jack Wright could only speak Gitksan, and this  44 was in 1976.  He was quite sick.  There wasn't much --  45 so I went out, I didn't really have anyone to  46 translate.  Later it turned out that Wii minosik did  47 have territory that came out to Shedin Creek and that 8942  N. Sterritt (For Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  1 Tsabux, who is either Wilbur Johnson or his brother,  2 owned territory there as well.  So I think at that  3 time I identified it as a problem but I think it was  4 my misunderstanding.  5 Q   Next one --  6 THE COURT:  Do you think it's convenient to adjourn, Mr. Goldie?  7 MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, my lord.  8 THE COURT:  You say there was no problem there?  9 A   No.  10    THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  10 o'clock, please.  11  12 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO 10 O'CLOCK A. M., TUESDAY,  13 OCTOBER 25, 1988)  14  15  16  17  18 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  19 a true and accurate transcript of the  20 proceedings herein to the best of my  21 skill and ability.  22  23  24  25  26  27 Wilf Roy  28 Official Reporter  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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