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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-05-26] British Columbia. Supreme Court May 26, 1988

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 6532  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Vancouver B.C.  May 2 6, 198 8.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  THE REGISTRAR:  In the Supreme Court of British Columbia,  Thursday, May 26, 1988.  Calling Delgamuukw versus Her  Majesty the Queen.  I caution the witness and the interpreter, you are  both still under oath.  THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  MR. RUSH:  My lord, on the question of the commission, there was  some discussion yesterday about concerns raised by my  friend about the commission.  It may not be a present  problem.  Mr. Grant advises me that both he and Mr.  Williams are now able to proceed on Monday.  So we can  proceed with commencement of Mr. Williams' testimony  on Monday morning.  MACKENZIE:  Oh, Mr. —  RUSH:  As to the question of the view.  COURT:  Shall we deal with the question of the commission  first?  I just wanted to suggest that we put that off  until -- the question of the view until the end of the  day.  I have provided my friends with a proposal this  morning.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. RUSH:  And they may want to review it and think about it and  talk about it at the end of the day.  THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Mr. Mackenzie, you were  rushing to your feet about the commission or about the  view?  MR. MACKENZIE:  When we said "Mr. Williams," the commission of  Stanley Williams, and Glen Williams is the next  witness, so I misheard Mr. Rush, I presume, from when  he said Glen Williams, the next witness will be  starting on the Monday.  That's what I understood Mr.  Rush to say.  MR.  MR.  THE  MR. RUSH  MR.  THE  RUSH:  COURT:  Yes.  All right,  background?  Thank you.  What do I hear in the  I suppose we will have to adjourn for the  moment while I see what's going on outside.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  THE COURT:  Counsel may remember in 1978, during an extradition  hearing, the court tolerated pounding of a drum in 6533  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 front of the courthouse for upwards of three weeks  2 which disturbed everyone immensely and it was thought  3 at that time that the court ought not to endure that  4 sort of disturbance.  And for that reason I feel  5 obliged to make a hurried investigation of this sort  6 of thing when it happens and then make a decision as  7 what will be best for the proper administration of the  8 court's business in which, of course, includes many,  9 many cases that are in no way involved in whatever it  10 is that the people are demonstrating about.  So for  11 that reason I feel when these matters arise, I feel  12 obliged to take some steps to prevent the repetition  13 of the very serious inconvenience that it held in 1978  14 case.  But that's all I need to say at the moment.  15 Let's hope we can proceed.  16 Mr. Mackenzie, if you are ready.  17  18 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACKENZIE, Continued:  19 Q   My lord, I refer to my last questions yesterday.  20 There may be some lack of clarity in the references I  21 made to interrogatories maps.  And I'd like to just  22 clarify that now.  We were speaking at the time about  23 the Wiigyet, W-i-i-g-y-e-t, territory R on Exhibit 486  24 just south of the Sicintine River and we were speaking  25 about the Wiiminosik territory Q at Smokee,  26 S-m-o-k-e-e, Lake on Exhibit 486.  27 THE COURT:  Is the Wiigyet territory to which you refer the most  28 northeasterly of the Wiigyet territories shown on  29 Exhibit 486?  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  31 THE COURT:  The small one with the unpronounceable word?  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  On the east side of the Skeena River.  33 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  That appears at paragraph R of Mr. Muldoe's  35 affidavit.  36 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  Excuse me, Mr. Mackenzie.  Thank  37 you.  Mr. Mackenzie, did you say something about a  38 territory Q?  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  Territory Q which is Wiiminosik.  40 THE COURT:  Oh, yes.  The little one, yes.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  The little one at Smokee Lake.  42 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  That appears at paragraph Q of Mr. Muldoe's  44 affidavit.  And the simple point I was making that I  45 may have not been clear about was that two  46 interrogatories maps filed as exhibits appear to  47 indicate other people claiming those territories.  And 6534  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 now --  2 MR. RUSH:  Isn't that an argument, my lord?  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  I am just going to put it to the witness, my  4 lord, as I did yesterday, and clarify the -- I put it  5 to the witness yesterday, but I didn't clarify who the  6 claims were made by.  That's the problem.  7 THE COURT:  Well, you are asking the witness if he is aware of  8 claims being made to territory Q by others?  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  10 THE COURT:  Yes, you may ask him that question.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  12 Q   The other claimants to whom I referred are first,  13 Gwininitxw, which is number 20 on the plaintiffs'  14 list, Mr. Solomon Jack, and the map of his territories  15 is an exhibit in these proceedings, Exhibit 420.  And  16 the second claimant is Luus, number 42 on the  17 plaintiffs' list, Jeff Harris Sr., and his claim and  18 map is shown at Exhibit 417, the trial Exhibit 417.  19 And my question now to Mr. Muldoe is:  Mr.  20 Muldoe -- I would like to have Exhibit 486 placed  21 before the witness, please.  Referring to Exhibit 486,  22 are you aware that Luus --  23 A   No.  24 Q   Are you aware that Luus claims that territory  25 Wiiminosik on Exhibit 486?  2 6          A   No.  27 Q   Are you aware that Solomon Jack, Gwininitxw, claims  28 that territory Wiiminosik on Exhibit 486?  2 9          A   No.  30 Q   Pointing now to the Wiigyet territory on 486 east of  31 the Skeena River just north of Wiiminosik.  Are you  32 aware that Solomon Jack, Gwininitxw, claims that  33 territory?  34 A   He didn't -- they don't belong to that territory.  35 They trap -- they got up the Sicintine River.  36 Q   Are you aware that Jeff Harris Sr., Luus, claims that  37 is Wiigyet territory?  38 A   No.  39 THE COURT:  Who was the other claimant you mentioned, alleged or  40 purported claimant you mentioned and his number,  41 please?  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  His number, my lord, was — his name was  43 Gwininitxw and the number is number 20 on the  44 plaintiffs' list.  45 THE INTERPRETER:  It's Gwininitxw.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  His name is — thank you, Mrs. Sampson.  And his  47 name is Solomon Jack. 6535  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  Thank you.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  And, my lord, to show the geographical location  3 of those claims to which I just referred, I'm going to  4 refer to trial Exhibit 5, which is -- excerpt of which  5 is at tab seven of the red volume.  Can your lordship  6 see Kuldo in the upper middle part of that excerpt?  7 THE COURT:  I will in a moment.  Kuldo is in the territory  8 of -- ?  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  Luus on this exhibit.  10 THE COURT:  Yes.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  Does your lordship —  12 THE COURT:  Yes.  Are you talking about Kuldo where the reserve  13 is?  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  15 THE COURT:  Is that Old or New Kuldo?  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  I understand that's New Kuldo.  17 THE COURT:  New Kuldo, yes, I have that.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  I am referring to that just to start the  19 description, though your lordship will see the Luus  20 territory right beside that.  21 THE COURT:  Yes.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  Proceeding north.  23 THE COURT:  That boundary follows the Skeena, does it?  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  It follows — the western boundary of that Luus  25 territory follows the Skeena.  2 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  North to the — and, my lord, you'll see the  28 northern boundary of Luus.  2 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  And then, my lord, you will proceed into the  31 next territory.  32 THE COURT:  Yes.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  Which is Gwininitxw.  And if your lordship  34 continues up the Skeena, your lordship will see the  35 Sicintine River just flowing into the Skeena just  36 north of that about two inches -- an inch north of  37 that boundary.  3 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's the area to which I just referred, my  40 lord.  41 THE COURT:  Yes.  42 MR. MACKENZIE:  43 Q   Mr. Muldoe, yesterday we spoke about Dawamuxw, do you  44 remember that?  45 A   Yes.  4 6 Q   And you said that you thought that Dawamuxw and Geel  47 were in the same house? 6536  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  A  2    ]  MR. RUSH  3  A  4  5  6    ]  MR. mack:  7  Q  8  9  10  11  A  12  Q  13  14  A  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  Q  24  25  26  27  28  A  29  30  Q  31  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  A  42  43  44  45  46  Q  47  Yes.  He said they were in the same house.  Dawamuxw they have their own house and Geel have their  own house, but they have a separate territory, but  still -- they still in the same clan.  JZIE:  Dawamuxw is number three on the plaintiffs' list and  Geel is number eight on the plaintiffs' list.  So as  Mr. Rush assisted us, yesterday you thought they  were -- you said they were in the same house?  Yes.  But today you say they are separate -- I am sorry,  today you say they are a separate house?  Yes.  But they are the same clan?  Same clan, yes.  And they have separate territories?  They have separate territories.  And Dawamuxw's territory is not shown on your map  Exhibit 486?  Well, that Dawamuxw and Geel are in the same territory  as on that Stevens Lake there.  That territory to which you refer is the western Geel  territory.  It's territory 0 described in Paragraph 0  of your affidavit.  That territory did not appear on  the map of the land claims area in 1984.  Are you  aware of that?  Well, all that territory, that has always been there,  but they -- maybe they didn't have it on that.  Territory 0, the western Geel territory, was added to  the statement of claim in 1987.  Are you aware of  that?  Yes.  Yes.  I want to ask you some general questions about  Exhibit 486.  Many of the territories on your map  Exhibit 486 belong to other houses than yours, don't  they?  What territory are you talking about?  Well, there are several territories on this map that  do not belong to your house?  Well, anything -- anyone that belongs to Wiigyet,  Waiget and it's all belong to the same house.  But not  the same house, but in a different territory.  As  Waiget, Wii seeks have their own house and so does  Gitludahl.  I am sorry, I have misled you.  I mean to say, for  example, you have shown the Antgulilbix territory on 6537  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 here?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   That's territory I in your affidavit.  And you don't  4 have any ownership of that territory, do you?  5 A   No.  6 Q   No.  And the same is true for the Luus territory?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   Territory C in your affidavit.  And can you agree with  9 me that the chiefs of these territories did not use  10 maps?  11 A   They didn't never usually have a map before any white  12 people comes around.  They don't use map.  They use  13 landmark and they use -- and they know where the  14 territory are by using the creek, mountain and all  15 those things.  16 Q   And there could be differing views on the boundaries  17 for some of these territories, couldn't there?  18 A  Well, wherever they have their own boundary, that's as  19 far as they go.  They don't go over on the boundaries.  20 Q   For example, on the Sicintine River, the Fireweed Clan  21 used to own the territory along there, didn't they?  22 A   That's what I -- that's what -- that's what former Wii  23 seeks told me when he was in there when we went to  24 visit him.  25 Q   That's William Jackson?  26 A  William Jackson, the former Wii seeks.  What he told  27 me about it, he said the Sicintine River belong to us,  28 he said belong to Wiigyet and all the rest of the  2 9 family.  But Gwininitxw -- Gwininitxw's father.  30 Q   That's Tommy Jack's father?  31 A   Tommy Jack's father.  They crossed from Gisgaast and  32 they went across the Lax an Hakw and go down the Xsan  33 luu skeexs.  The Tommy Jack Creek, that's the name of  34 that now.  And when they get into Sicintine River,  35 they walk down towards the river and that's where they  36 get snowed in.  They get snowed in so they have to  37 stay in there for the winter.  And from there on they  38 have been settled in there.  And what William Jackson  39 told me is they said we got too many different areas,  40 too many places so we don't bother them, because  41 Gwininitxw's father came from our house.  42 Q   There are several place names there, but can I  43 summarize your evidence --  44 A  We ask -- I ask -- we ask Solomon Jack about this.  45 They have been trapping in there just about pret'near  46 all their life and I ask Jasper Jack also.  That's  47 Tommy Jack's son.  How they get it.  He said they 653?  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 don't know.  2 THE COURT:  What clan are they, please?  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  4 Q   What clan are they?  5 A  Wolf.  6 Q   Wolf Clan.  They moved in there and just continued to  7 use the territory?  8 A   Yeah.  They continued to use the territory, but  9 Gisgaast Clan doesn't bother.  They got so many  10 different territories.  They just let them have it.  11 Q   Now, because there are so many territories, you  12 personally could not be familiar with all the  13 boundaries, could you?  14 A  Well, I just don't know just what boundary that -- how  15 far they go in that Sicintine River.  16 Q   Let's talk about Antgulilbix, for example.  17 A   Yes.  18 MR. RUSH:  Which Antgulilbix?  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  20 Q   The Antgulilbix which is on your map, Exhibit 486.  21 You would never see a map of that boundary, would you?  22 A   I never see a map of that boundary, but I have been  23 told by the former George Williams, he showed me the  24 places exactly where -- how far they go and where the  25 mountain and the ridge and all that and the lake.  26 Q   Okay.  You were up there with George Williams one  27 time, correct?  28 A   I was up there with George Williams one time.  29 Q   In the 1930's?  30 A   Somewhere around there.  1930 or '31.  31 Q   And how long were you there?  32 A   Be there for about a month or a month and a half.  33 Q   And you could not be -- you did not go along the  34 boundaries up in the northern part of the Geel  35 territory, the western Geel territory, 0, did you?  36 A   I walked up to the -- I walked up to the Kispiox  37 River.  38 Q   Yes.  39 A  When they asked me, they said something about they  40 seen a caribou tracks going up there and they asked me  41 if we can go up and see if we can find it.  I walked  42 up that river and they told me where to turn off and  43 turn off by the place they call -- I just can't  44 remember they call the name of it.  Another little  45 creek turns off on your right-hand side.  It's Xsi  46 Lapsit.  47 Q   Yes. 6539  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  MR. RUSH:  2  MR. macke:  3  Q  4  A  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  THE COURT  12  13  14  15  MR. macke:  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  A  35  Q  36  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  A  44  45  Q  46  47  A  We need a spelling for that.  JZIE:  X-s-i L-a-p-s-i-t.  And that's in Antgulilbix territory, isn't it?  That's in Antgulilbix territory.  And you were back there in the 1930's there as well,  weren't you?  Yes.  And you haven't been back there since, have you,  except for your helicopter flight?  Yes.  :  Before you get too far away from it, Mr. Mackenzie,  the story about the Wolf Clan people getting snowed in  in the Sicintine River area, what was your  understanding of when that occurred, please?  JZIE:  When did the Wolf Clan people go into the Sicintine  and get snowed in?  It's way before my time.  You spent most of your time, though, in the Wiigyet  territory, didn't you?  Yes.  And you have spent quite a lot of time in the  Gitludahl territory?  Ever since they turned it over to me I spent my time.  That's 1956?  '56, yeah.  Since the 1930's you haven't had an opportunity to  spend much time in the other northern territories?  Yes.  The informants in your affidavit as you mentioned have  all passed on, haven't they?  Passed on?  They have all died?  Yes.  Yes.  So you would not receive maps drawn by them,  would you?  Come back on that question again.  You don't have any maps drawn by your informants?  No.  They never did have any map or anything like  that.  So this -- and as I say, this map, Exhibit 486, was  drawn by Richard Overstall?  Well, I instruct him the way the map was made and all  the boundaries.  You drew this or this map was drawn this month, May,  1988?  Sometime this month, I think, when it's drawn. 6540  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q   Referring to Exhibit 486.  The information that you  got from your informants, for example, George  Williams --  A   Yes.  Q   -- was fairly general information, wasn't it?  A   Yes.  He was telling all the -- he was giving me all  the information, all the boundary where just how far  they go and where other people's boundary are.  You  asked me if Delgamuukw's boundary joined with them and  they joined right in with it.  Q   But as you say, it's fair to say that the territory  you know most about --  Yeah.  — is Gitludahl?  I didn't know anything about Gitludahl's territory  until they have to give it to me.  But I know  Gitludahl.  You are talking about Moses Morrison?  Moses Morrison, yes.  That's your house's territory?  Yes.  And you are the chief and you have a responsibility to  know the boundary?  Yes.  When do you say that territory was given to you?  1956.  Are you talking about the Gitludahl territory?  Yes.  1956.  I think you said, but I want to make sure I  have it right, that you spent most of your time on the  Wiigyet territory.  MACKENZIE:  Wiigyet, my lord.  COURT:  Waiget, Wiigyet.  MACKENZIE:  W-i-i-g-y-e-t.  COURT:  I pronounce that 'Waiget.'  MACKENZIE:  I beg your pardon.  COURT:  But I thought you said that you spent most of your  time on Wiigyet territory when it was given to you?  A   Yes.  COURT:  And was that from 1936?  A   '31 to -- '31 I spent most of my time in there and  part of my time in Luus' territory also.  THE COURT:  And so you started spending most of your time in  Wiigyet's territory about 193 --  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q   You started spending your time in Wiigyet in 1932?  A   Yes.  THE  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  COURT  A  COURT  A  COURT 6541  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  Thank you.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  3 Q   You testified that you don't go on the Gitludahl  4 Salmon River, you testified that you don't go on the  5 Salmon River territory?  6 A   No, I don't go in there.  7 Q   And the Gitludahl territory is quite accessible by  8 roads now, isn't it?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   So in Gitludahl's territory you know most about  11 territory A, the Gitludahl, Twin Lake, don't you?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And we spoke a few days ago about the other Wiigyet  14 territories.  Do you recall the territory in the upper  15 Skeena?  16 A   Xsi Laadamus.  17 Q   Upper Skeena, that James Morrison spoke about?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   You don't know the boundaries of that in detail, do  20 you?  21 A   No, I don't know the boundaries in that territory.  22 Q   And the other Wiigyet territory on Dam Similoo?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   You don't know the boundaries in detail for that  25 territory either, do you?  26 A   I know the boundary that goes from there and it shows  27 right on this map here.  28 Q   You don't know the other boundaries of that territory,  29 do you, in detail?  30 A   In what other boundaries?  31 Q   The boundaries of the Wiigyet territory on Xsi 'din  32 Creek that James Morrison spoke about?  33 A   No, I don't know that part.  34 Q   Okay.  And you testified that you haven't been up in  35 the Shaladamus since the 1930's, is that correct?  36 A   1940 I think when I was up there.  37 Q   Yes.  1940's?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   So we come back again to the Gitludahl territory at  40 Twin Lake.  Now, you spoke about the Gitludahl  41 territory in December 1985 at Moses Morrison's Feast,  42 is that correct?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And you say that there have never been any changes in  45 that territory, Twin Lakes?  4 6 A  What do you mean by never any changes?  47 Q   Well, you say in your interrogatories there have never 6542  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 been any changes in the boundaries of the house's  2 territories?  3 A   No, there has never been any territories in there.  4 Q   And you say the mountains, lakes and springs were our  5 boundaries?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Yes.  And that knowledge that you have is from your  8 experience?  9 A   It's from what I was told and from my experience.  10 Q   And it's from the adaawk of your house?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   It's from the lessons of your grandparents?  13 A   From the grandparents and from some other people that  14 talk about.  Whoever I go along, they tell me all  15 about these things and most of the places I just go  16 through it, but they still tell me where the  17 boundaries are and who owns it.  18 Q   Okay.  Now, I am going to refer to Exhibit 493, which  19 is at tab three in the Volume 1, the black volume.  2 0    THE COURT:  Tab one?  21 THE REGISTRAR:  Tab three, my lord.  22 MR. MACKENZIE:  Tab three, my lord.  23 THE COURT:  Is this the affidavit of the witness?  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  25 Q   Now, just on this subject, I want to ask you a couple  26 more questions.  You agree with me that the boundaries  27 of the house territories define the area over which  28 the house has ownership?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And the boundaries show where you cannot cross onto  31 another territory?  32 A   That's right.  33 Q   And whenever there is a transfer of territory to the  34 chief, the boundaries are affirmed?  35 A   Doesn't matter if you can transfer it to another  36 chief, but they still have the same boundary.  37 Q   And the Gitksan law says that persons have to respect  38 other chiefs' territories?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Now, referring to the map, which is Exhibit 493, and  41 having Exhibit 486 also for comparison, you said in  42 your territory that the map Exhibit 493 was wrong?  43 A   Yeah.  This map is wrong here.  44 Q   You are referring to Exhibit 493.  And you said that  45 the reason it was wrong is because the boundary,  46 that's Exhibit 493, goes over to Luu Andilgan?  47 A   Yeah.  Luu Andilgan.  That's Luu Andilgan is Geel's 6543  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 territory.  That comes right along here.  And you can  2 see right on this map, too, also.  3 Q   Okay.  I'll just tell the judge where that is now.  4 Luu Andilgan --  5 A   Luu Andilgan is right here.  6 Q   Shown on Exhibit 486 and its English name is  7 Beaverlodge Creek.  Does your lordship have that on  8 Exhibit 486?  It's just to the west of the -- it's  9 just to the west of the Gitludahl boundary.  It runs  10 right through here through the middle of the south  11 Geel territory.  12 THE COURT:  What is it called again, please?  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  In English it's Beaverlodge Creek and in Gitksan  14 it's Luu Andilgan, Luu, L-u-u, Andilgan,  15 A-n-d-i-1-g-a-n.  16 THE COURT:  What is he saying, that the boundary should go to  17 Beaverlodge Creek or it should not go to Beaverlodge  18 Creek?  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  20 Q   You say that the boundary should not go to Luu  21 Andilgan, Beaverlodge Creek?  22 A   No.  Right from there.  23 Q   Okay.  24 MR. RUSH:  The witness just pointed to the western boundary of  25 the Gitludahl territory shown on Exhibit 486.  2 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  27 MR. RUSH:  As to where it should go.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  29 Q   And the western boundary on Exhibit 486 is Steep  30 Canyon Creek, isn't it?  31 A   That's right.  And right into the sandbar down part of  32 the Kispiox River.  33 Q   Yes.  34 THE COURT:  So the boundary is too far to the west on Exhibit  35 493, is it?  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  37 Q   In fact, would you agree with me that the map -- this  38 map, Exhibit 493, is it twice as large, two times  39 larger than the boundary, the area shown on Exhibit  40 486?  41 A   Yes.  That's a bigger map than that.  But this one  42 here is made into a smaller map, but it's still in the  43 same territory.  44 Q   So I say that the area that's covered is twice as  45 large on Exhibit 493?  4 6          A   Yeah.  47 Q   Right?  I am going to ask you -- on Exhibit 493, I am 6544  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  RUSH:  going to mark the western boundary as shown on Exhibit  486.  That's the Steep Canyon Creek.  And can you tell  me, looking at Exhibit 493, where is the western  boundary of your territory, Gitludahl?  May I assist  you in that, in answering that question.  He's just looking at the map.  MACKENZIE:  Q   Yes.  493.  Xsu wii din River.  Pointing to the Sweet In right on Exhibit  It's just down below that.  I am referring to a creek on Exhibit 493.  Steep Canyon Creek.  And it's Steep Canyon Creek, is that correct?  Yes.  That's the western boundary of --  Yes.  — Gitludahl on 486, isn't it?  Yes.  I am going to put an orange line along that creek.  Now, I want to ask you a couple more questions  about --  Well -- well, Mr. Muldoe, does that orange line show  the boundary of the Gitludahl property?  Yes.  Thank you.  MACKENZIE:  Q   I want to ask you a couple more questions about that  interrogatories map.  I am pointing to a lake in the  northwestern part of this interrogatories map, Exhibit  493.  It appears to be called Dam Gelt, D-a-m G-e-l-t.  And I am circling that.  And that is Hilltop Lake,  isn't it?  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  THE COURT  A  COURT  A   Yes.  MACKENZIE:  COURT:  Yes  MACKENZIE:  Q  Does your lordship have that reference!  A  Q  A  Q  A  On Exhibit 486 Hilltop Lake is in Geel's territory,  isn't it?  Yes.  That's Geel's territory -- Geel's eastern territory,  territory N in your affidavit.  And as you've pointed  out already, the interrogatories map Exhibit 493 also  includes Xsi Luu Andilgan?  Yeah.  Xsi Luu Andilgan.  That's all these parts here.  That's Beaverlodge Creek?  Yes. 6545  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Q   And on your Exhibit 486 that is in Geel's territory as  2 well?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   Yes.  It's outside your territory?  5 A   Outside my territory.  6 Q   And on Exhibit -- does your lordship have that  7 reference?  8 THE COURT:  Well, I understand he's talking about Beaverlodge  9 Creek, which is shown as the westerly boundary of the  10 properties on Exhibit 493 which we --  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  Oh, no my lord.  12 THE COURT:  No?  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  That was Steep Canyon Creek.  The westerly  14 boundary we've marked with an orange line is Steep  15 Canyon Creek.  16 THE COURT:  Yes.  17 MR. RUSH:  It's marked on the map there as -- not as Steep  18 Canyon Creek but as Xsi gwi Tselasgwit.  19 THE COURT:  Yes, I have that.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  And then, my lord, we are referring to  21 Beaverlodge Creek.  22 THE COURT:  Which is what this map shows with the dark line, is  23 it not?  24 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, my lord.  25 THE COURT:  I thought that's what he said it was or you said it  2 6 was.  But anyway, go ahead.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  The point is, my lord, that Beaverlodge Creek is  28 Xsi Luu Andilgan, A-n-d-i-1-g-a-n.  2 9 THE COURT:  Yes, I see that.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  And that's in the interrogatories map.  That's  31 Beaverlodge Creek.  And your lordship is correct, in  32 his testimony Mr. Muldoe said that the map was wrong  33 because it ran over to that --  34 THE COURT:  Yes.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  — area.  36 THE COURT:  Right.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:   So just referring to that again, my lord,  38 Beaverlodge Creek on Exhibit 486 is outside the  39 Gitludahl territory.  It's in the Geel territory,  40 southern Geel territory.  So does your lordship have  41 that reference?  42 THE COURT:  Yes.  43 A   I think he went a little too far up on this.  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  45 Q   Mr. Muldoe is saying he thinks they went up a little  4 6 too far up on the map.  47 A   They went up above the Xsu wii din.  It's down by this 6546  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 sandbar over here.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:   Yes.  Mr. Muldoe is speaking again about the  3 western -- the northwestern boundary of his territory  4 and he's saying that Exhibit 493 appears to have gone  5 beyond that.  6 MR. RUSH:  No, no.  He's not.  He's saying that the orange line  7 you drew on the map went farther up than where it goes  8 on the map.  He says -- he points over to where this  9 joins at the sandbar on the Kispiox River.  10 A   Sandbar from the Kispiox River where the road comes  11 right into the bar.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  13 Q   I am going to -- I have changed that then in  14 accordance with Mr. Muldoe.  I am going to put a one  15 there.  That makes the boundary just goes along Steep  16 Canyon Creek and then it just cuts over?  17 A   Yes.  It's about over -- it's about over a mile  18 belongs to the Xsu wii din River.  That's from the  19 sandbar, the place called Sandbar.  20 Q   Now, I want to refer you to another feature on this  21 map, Exhibit 493.  You'll see down in the southeastern  22 portion of this map the name Amagyet.  Do you see  23 that?  Do you see that, my lord?  2 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  26 Q   Do you see that, Mr. Muldoe?  27 A   Yes.  Amagyet.  28 Q   And you said yesterday that Amagyet -- you have never  29 heard of Amagyet being in that area, have you?  30 A   No.  31 Q   And Amagyet is Percy Wilson?  32 A   Yes.  33 MR. RUSH:  Was Percy Wilson.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  35 Q   Was Percy Wilson.  What we see down here at the very  36 bottom of Exhibit 493 is McCully Creek, don't we?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   That's the lower southeast part of Exhibit 493?  39 A   Yes.  Tsihl Hlii din.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:   And Mr. Muldoe gave the Gitksan name for that  41 McCully Creek.  Does your lordship see that reference?  42 THE COURT:  Yes.  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  44 Q   What in effect has happened is that Exhibit 493 or  45 interrogatories map included the southern area of Geel  46 below Kispiox River, correct?  47 A   Tsihl Hlii din, it's way down. 6547  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  MR. MACKENZIE:  I am speaking about this.  MR. RUSH:  He's telling you where Tsihl Hlii din is.  MR. MACKENZIE:  I didn't ask him that question, Mr. Rush.  MR. RUSH:  He has been examining the maps to see why Tsihl Hlii  din is as far north as it is.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q   And I will just leave that point then, Mr. Muldoe, and  ask you on Exhibit 493 you have Mitten Lake shown  here, don't you?  Yes.  And that's Dam, D-a-m, Gwindilgii?  Dam Gwindilgii.  Dam Gwindilgii?  Dam Gwindilgii.  Yes.  G-w-i-n-d-i-1-g-i-i, and I am going to circle  that.  THE COURT:  That's Mitten Lake?  MR. MACKENZIE:  Q   Is that Mitten Lake?  A   Yes.  Q   And that's shown on Exhibit 483 as being in the  territory of Amagyet, isn't it?  Mitten Lake, that belongs to Delgamuukw.  But on Exhibit 493 it's shown as being in Amagyet's  territory, isn't it?  It shows Amagyet in here, but could be fish and  wildlife could have put that in there, but it actually  belongs to Delgamuukw.  Now, in 1980 -- in September, 1986, September 23,  1986, you swore an affidavit, didn't you?  Uh-huh.  And I am showing you a copy of that affidavit and  that's your signature on that affidavit?  Yes.  Yes.  These were your first interrogatories, weren't  they, answers?  Uh-huh.  And it was in September, 1986 that this map, Exhibit  493, was produced, is that true to the best of your  recollection?  September, 1986?  I don't remember if they ever showed me this map.  Okay.  I am just going to read from your affidavit in  September 1986.  "The answers that are attached as Exhibit A to  this my affidavit are true to the best of my  knowledge except where stated to be upon  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q 654?  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 information and belief and where so stated I  2 verily believe them to be true."  3  4 Now, that was in your affidavit, wasn't it?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And referring to your interrogatory answer in  7 September, 1986, you were asked what are the  8 boundaries of your house's territory at interrogatory  9 59 C, and you said in September 1986:  10  11 "The boundary of some of Gitludahl's territory set  12 out in schedule C.  This does not include my  13 fishing sites, Gitludahl also has a territory  14 around Salmon River.  This map also does not  15 include Weget, Wii seeks, or Wyget."  16  17 And that's what you said in your answer, isn't it?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And this map that we have here, Exhibit 493, is the  20 map that you referred to in your interrogatories,  21 isn't it?  22 A   Uh-huh.  23 Q   Yes?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Then in January, 1987 you swore another affidavit,  26 didn't you?  January -- February, February 5, 1987,  27 you swore another affidavit, didn't you?  2 8 A   I don't remember.  29 Q   That's Exhibit 493 in these proceedings.  And in  30 paragraph three of that affidavit, which is Exhibit  31 493, you said:  32  33 "The answers that are attached as Exhibit A to  34 this my affidavit are true to the best of my  35 knowledge including information which I have  36 received from others."  37  38 Do you remember you said that in your affidavit?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   And in paragraph five in your affidavit Exhibit 493  41 you said:  42  43 "Schedule C which is referred to in Exhibit A has  44 already been delivered and is not included with  45 this affidavit."  46  47 Do you see that? 6549  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Uh-huh.  2 Q   And that was referring to the map which is Exhibit 493  3 that we've been discussing, correct?  That's the map  4 you were speaking about?  5 A   Could be.  But I was just talking about all that area.  6 Q   And in April, 1987 you were examined for discovery,  7 weren't you, by Mr. Plant?  You recall you were  8 examined for discovery in April, 1987 by Mr. Plant?  9 A   By who?  10 Q   By Mr. Plant for the Province.  He asked you some  11 questions?  12 A   '87?  13 Q   Yes.  Just referring to question 389, my lord.  14 THE COURT:  I am not sure that the witness is with you yet.  He  15 agreed yesterday that he had.  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  17 THE COURT:  But he hasn't done so yet this morning.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, perhaps I could rely on that  19 agreement yesterday.  20 THE COURT:  Well, you can certainly do that, but I think you  21 better get the witness on track with yourself before  22 you put the evidence to him.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  24 Q   Mr. Muldoe, I just wanted to ask you something about  25 the examination for discovery in April, 1987.  Can you  26 recall that you had those questions and answers?  27 A   I don't think I talked with any lawyer in '87.  28 Q   Okay.  Well, yesterday you agreed with me that you  29 did, that you had that meeting and you answered the  30 questions on April 24, 1987, and we have a transcript  31 of your questions and answers here.  Do you recall  32 that now?  33 A   I still don't remember.  34 Q   Okay.  I was just asking you about Mr. Plant.  You  35 remember Mr. Plant asking you some questions?  36 A   I wouldn't even know his name.  37 Q   Okay.  Fine.  38 THE COURT:  Where was the examination?  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  In Smithers, my lord.  40 A   '87?  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  42 Q   Just before the trial started.  43 A   That can't be in '87, is it?  44 Q   Yes.  April, just before the trial started in May.  45 A  We are in '88.  May, '87.  4 6 THE COURT:  No.  April, '87.  47 A  April, '87. 6550  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, it's very simple.  The question I  2 wanted to ask --  3 THE COURT:  You can put the evidence to the witness, if you are  4 satisfied that he was examined.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  6 Q   I just want to ask you, Mr. Muldoe, do you recall that  7 your interrogatories questions were marked as an  8 exhibit on that examination for discovery in April,  9 1987?  10 THE COURT:  I would be very surprised if he would.  11 A  Are you sure it's '87?  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, my lord, I will just refer to —  13 THE COURT:  You can put the question to him.  You can ask him.  14 A   I just came from fishing, commercial fishing in '87.  15 From there on I went on trapping to Gwinageese.  And I  16 was never talking to any lawyer in '87.  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  18 Q   Okay.  Fine.  Sometimes these things slip the mind, I  19 know.  I just want to suggest to you that on page 45  20 of the transcript that your September, 1987  21 affidavit -- correction, I am sorry.  I will rephrase  22 that question.  I just want to put to you that your  23 Exhibit 493, your February, 1987 interrogatories were  24 marked as an exhibit on that examination for  25 discovery.  Do you recall that?  26 A   I had an examination in Smithers, but I just don't  27 remember what year it was.  28 Q   Okay.  And you recall that you identified your  29 interrogatories and they are on that examination for  30 discovery and page 44, question 380, Mr. Plant says:  31  32 "I have a few questions now about the  33 interrogatories.  I have a document in front of  34 you, Mr. Muldoe.  Could you turn to the second  35 page and tell me if that's your signature?"  36  37 And you answered:  38  39 "Right there, yeah."  40  41 And you identified your signature on that affidavit.  42 Do you recall that?  43 A   Yes.  Yes, that's my signature.  44 Q   Yes.  But you recall doing that on the examination?  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   Well, Mr. Muldoe, you say that the map is wrong now,  47 Exhibit 483.  Did you look at the map when you signed 6551  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 your -- swore your affidavits in September, 1986 and  2 February, 1987?  3 A   I don't think they ever showed me the map on this one.  4 But I see in the map that they had this when the  5 fishery and wildlife, they had all this, Mitten Lake  6 was included in my territory once and we have to put  7 that out of there, because it wasn't mine.  And that  8 could be what happened when this one here too.  9 Q   Someone else prepared this map?  10 A  Must be someone else prepared this map.  11 Q   And did they tell you that it was correct?  12 A   Didn't tell, but when I take a good look, but I notice  13 that all included that Luu Andilgan, it's all Geel's  14 territory.  15 Q   And you looked at it this month?  16 A   I look at it now.  17 Q   Yes.  That's the first -- first you knew that this map  18 was not correct?  19 A   Yes.  20 Q   I take it that after January, 1987, did you receive  21 any new information about your territory, Gitludahl's  22 territory, Twin Lake?  I am sorry.  I will rephrase  23 that.  Did you receive any new information after  24 January, 1987 about your territory?  25 A   I received one -- one latest.  They were talking about  26 the other Beaverlodge up along Kuldo trail there.  27 Q   I am speaking about this territory here, Twin Lake.  28 Did you receive any new information after January,  29 1987?  3 0 A   I don't remember.  31 Q   Now, you say in your affidavit that you were informed  32 about this territory of Gitludahl by Abel Tait?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   When did Abel take die?  35 A   He died a long time ago.  I don't remember what year  36 he died, but he died a few years ago.  37 Q   Did he die before 1956?  38 A   He died somewhere around before that, I think.  39 Q   And you started travelling in this territory in 1956  40 when you took responsibility, is that correct?  41 A   Yes.  In '56.  42 Q   So you never travelled with Abel Tait in this  43 territory?  44 A  We walked -- we walked through there before that time  45 when we went to Gwinageese about the month of May.  46 Q   1933?  47 A   Yeah.  When we passed those two lake and he was 6552  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  A  Q  telling me about it belonged to Gitludahl.  It wasn't his territory, was it?  No.  So Abel Tait didn't tell you about all the boundaries,  did he?  A  Well, he didn't mention anything about the boundary.  He just show showed me the lake and he told me the  name of the lake and we walked on.  THE COURT:  Which lake is that?  MR. MACKENZIE:  Twin Lake, my lord.  THE COURT:  Twin Lake.  THE COURT:  Finished with this map?  MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  THE COURT:  I think we will take the afternoon -- the morning  adjournment now, please, Mr. Mackenzie, if that's  convenient.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED PURSUANT TO MORNING BREAK)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Laara Yardley,  Official Reporter,  United Reporting Service Ltd. 6553  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 11:35)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  4 THE COURT:  Mr. Mackenzie?  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  6 Q   I'd like to ask you just a couple of questions about  7 Antgulilbix, territory I, in your affidavit.  You said  8 that you travelled through there in 1932; do you  9 remember that?  10 A   Yes.  11 Q   Yes.  And that was with who?  12 A   I went through there with Luus.  13 Q   And who was that?  14 A  Abel Tait.  15 Q   And the next visit you had to the territory was in  16 19 -- recently with a helicopter?  17 A   Yeah.  18 Q   Yes.  And those are the only visits you had a chance  19 to make to that territory?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   And who was with you and Abel Tait on your trip in  22 1932?  23 A   Just the two of us.  Yeah, we walked all the way from  24 Kispiox right up to along the Gwinageese River.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:   Referring to page — paragraph 60 on page 18 of  26 your affidavit, Exhibit 485, tab 6 in the plaintiffs'  27 document book, My Lord.  28 THE COURT:  Yes, I have it.  Thank you.  What paragraph again,  29 please?  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  Paragraph 60.  31 THE COURT:  Thank you.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  33 Q   And may I have that exhibit, please, for the witness?  34 Antgulilbix's territory is fireweed clan territory?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And Abel Tait is -- was Luus and he was wolf clan?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And you -- I think you said this morning that he died  39 before 1956?  40 A   Yeah, I just don't remember when he died.  He died  41 quite a while ago.  42 Q   You think it was before the 1950's?  43 A   I think it's after 1950's I think is when he died.  44 Q   Sometime —  45 A   It's sometimes in the -- I don't know just what year  46 when I went through there, either '36 or '37, I don't  4 7 remember. 6554  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE COURT:  What clan did you say Luus was?  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  3 Q   Luus is the wolf clan?  4 A   Yes.  5 THE COURT:  Wolf.  Yes.  Thank you.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  7 Q   You were on your way through to Delgamuukw's  8 territory, Gwinageese?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And what did it take you a day or half a day to walk  11 through Antgulilbix's territory on the way?  12 A   It takes about half a day or might be a little better.  13 Q   But I take it that Abel Tait wasn't able to tell you  14 about the boundaries, all the boundaries, of  15 Antgulilbix's territory during that time, was he?  16 A  Well, he didn't tell me all about the boundary, but he  17 told me about the boundary between Gwinageese and the  18 upper part.  But he told me who owns it.  19 Q   So you didn't travel in that territory, Antgulilbix,  20 with Jonathon Johnson did you?  21 A   No.  22 Q   And you didn't travel on that territory, Antgulilbix,  23 with Albert Tait, did you?  24 A   No, we went through there in the helicopter.  25 Q   Yes.  And you didn't travel on that territory,  26 Antgulilbix, with George Williams did you?  27 A   George Williams, I went -- I went from this end right  28 up to where I told you.  We went up on that part of --  29 to Shaladamus and that was before I went with Abel  30 Tait.  That's when he told me the boundary was between  31 this lake and up towards the mountain and down the  32 Kispiox River.  33 Q   You didn't have an opportunity to go travel in  34 Antgulilbix's territory with George Williams, did you?  35 A   But I don't go -- only went where he told us to go up  36 along that Wisan Kelt.  37 Q   Maybe my question is not clear.  I'm referring to  38 Antgulilbix territory, territory I in your affidavit,  39 and I just wanted you to get your agreement, if you  4 0 could help me.  You didn't have a chance to go up into  41 that territory with George Williams, did you?  42 A   Only go through this territory from here right up to  43 the -- along the trail, then I also went right up on  44 the top part of this Wisan Skit.  45 MR. RUSH:  The witness pointed along the river of Wisan Skit  46 from its point at the bottom all the way to the top to  47 Anda'ap of the Antgulilbix territory. 6555  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 THE WITNESS:   It's north-west from the Kispiox River.  2 THE COURT:  When did you walk along Wisan Skit with George  3 Williams?  4 THE WITNESS:   I don't remember just what year it was, but it's  5 somewhere around about '35 or between '35 or '37, but  6 I don't recall the year it was.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  8 Q   I'm just putting paragraph 60 of your affidavit,  9 Exhibit 485, before you and I'm just reading an  10 excerpt from that paragraph.  You said that you were  11 instructed about the territory, this is -- we're  12 talking about Wisan Skit, by Jonathon Johnson --  13 A   Uh-huh.  14 Q   -- who's deceased.  You see that?  And you say that  15 these people pointed out the boundaries when you  16 travelled in the territory.  So that's not correct, is  17 it?  18 A  Well, Jonathon Johnson, actually his father was -- his  19 father was -- owned on the Gwinageese territory when  20 he goes out there trapping all the time during his  21 young days and he knows all the territory there.  22 Q   So -- yes, fine.  23 A   Jonathon Johnson was the son of Solomon Johnson.  24 Q   Do you recall discussing one of the rivers in this  25 territory, that's Xsi Lapsit, X-s-i, new word  26 L-a-p-s-i-t?  Do you recall discussing that river with  27 Neil Sterritt in March 1982?  Do you know that river?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Do you remember discussing that with Neil Sterritt in  30 1982?  31 A  Well, we went through there with the helicopter.  32 Q   Yes.  And I'm going to ask you, when you talked to  33 Neil Sterritt about that river, you didn't know who  34 owned it did you?  35 A   The Kispiox River?  36 Q   Xsi Lapsit?  37 A   Xsi Lapsit it belongs to Tsibasaa.  38 Q   But you didn't know that in 1982 did you?  39 A   I know that at the time the first, yeah, I went in  40 there with George Williams.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:   I'm referring to the green book.  42 THE COURT:  Tell me where Xsi Lapsit is, please?  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  44 Q   Can you tell His Lordship where that river is Xsi  45 Lapsit?  46 A   It's pretty hard to see on this.  47 Q   Maybe you could show the area? 6556  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A  Well, it's -- Kispiox River is -- that goes up along  2 here, then it's one creek that runs --  3 THE COURT:  Is that the Kispiox along there?  4 THE WITNESS:   Yeah, that's the Kispiox River.  5 THE COURT:  That's not Xsi Wisan Skit?  6 THE WITNESS:   That's the Kispiox.  This is Wisan Kelt.  I don't  7 know what's Kispiox.  8 THE COURT:  That's called Xsi Wisan Skit.  9 THE WITNESS:   This is called Xsi Wisan Skit over here.  Xsi  10 Wisan Skit is the Kispiox River.  11 THE COURT:  Oh, all right.  12 THE WITNESS:   Then there's one river that goes up from here and  13 goes up this way.  I think this would be the one here.  14 THE COURT:  I see.  All right.  The one in the middle of the  15 territory.  16 THE WITNESS:  Yes.  17 THE COURT:  Thank you.  18 MR. RUSH: Xsi Wisan Skit is 103, My Lord, and it's described in  19 the affidavit as the Upper Kispiox --  20 THE WITNESS:  Xsi Lapsit is a branch off from the Kispiox River,  21 Xsi Wisan Skit.  22 THE COURT:  How is this Xsi Lapsit spelled again, please?  2 3 MR. RUSH:  216.  2 4 THE COURT:  Thank you.  25 MR. RUSH:  X-s-i, new word, L-a-p-s-i-t.  2 6 THE COURT:  Thank you.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  My Lord, I'm just referring to this green  28 booklet.  2 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  At tab 2, page 124.  31 THE COURT:  Page?  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  Page 124.  33 THE COURT:  124?  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord.  35 THE COURT:  Yes?  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  37 Q   These are notes taken from notebooks for the period of  38 June 1979 to November 1982. At page 124 there's a  39 reference to several place names and one of them is  40 this river we've just been speaking about, Xsi Lapsit,  41 and there's a notation there "Pete M. doesn't know who  42 owns it."  43 Do you recall discussing that, the river with Neil  44 Sterritt?  45 A  Well, I told him the rivers there, the one that Xsi  46 Lapsit.  47 Q   I'm just pointing out to you there's a note here "Pete 6557  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 M. doesn't know who owns it."?  2 A   I wouldn't know a thing about it.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:   Okay.  Fine.  4 THE COURT: I really don't know what that answer means, Mr.  5 Mackenzie.  I don't know if he means "I don't know who  6 owns the river.", or "I don't know anything about that  7 notation.".  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  9 Q   What did you mean when I pointed that notation out?  10 A   I mean I don't know who put that in there.  11 Q   Oh, this is -- these are excerpts from Neil Sterritt's  12 notebooks.  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And that's why I asked you whether you recalled  15 meeting with Neil Sterritt to discuss the river?  16 A  When we go with the helicopter and we name every part  17 of that territory as we going flying along to every  18 different territory, and we name the mountain, we name  19 the creeks, and all that.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:   I'm referring to tab 12 in that volume, page  21 210.  This appears to be a record of a discussion with  22 you on November 11, 1982.  23 MR. RUSH:  I'm sorry, what tab is that again, please?  24 THE COURT:  12, page 210.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  Tab 12, page 210.  26 MR. RUSH:  Tab 12, 210.  On my tab 12 I have no 210.  27 THE REGISTRAR: It's the last page.  28 MR. MACKENZIE:  It's the last page.  29 MR. RUSH:  Oh, there.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  31 Q   Do you recall discussing that river with Neil Sterritt  32 in November 1982?  33 A  What river is that?  34 Q   The Xsi Lapsit?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   Yes.  And Mr. Sterritt has a question mark there where  37 it says "territory".  Does that mean that you were  38 uncertain at that time who owned that river?  39 A   He might -- maybe he didn't state it because we was  40 telling all the territories as we go along because I  41 know that place ever since I went with George  42 Williams.  43 Q   Yes you say here George Williams used to trap up  44 there?  45 A   Yes.  46 MR. RUSH:  No, no, no, that's not what he says, My Lord.  That's  47 what the recorder of the information said, and he's 655?  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 being asked to read the mind of the recorder of the  2 information and I think he should be asked what was  3 said.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  5 Q   I'm just pointing out that on these notes there's an  6 indication that George Williams used to trap up here.  7 Do you recall telling Neil Sterritt that?  8 A  Well, we know all that he owns that territory in  9 there.  That's a former Tsibasaa.  10 MR. MACKENZIE:   Number 66 on the plaintiffs' list.  11 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what number?  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  Number 66 on the plaintiffs' list.  13 THE COURT:  Thank you.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  15 Q   Okay.  Just keep that page open, My Lord, and just go  16 to page 163, the one before it, at tab 12.  This is  17 another note from Mr. Sterritt's notebooks and it  18 deals with McCully Creek, and he says that he got this  19 information from you and it says that McCully Creek is  20 the territory of Amagyet; do you recall telling Mr.  21 Sterritt that?  22 A  Well, I didn't tell him that.  It's Kliiyemlaxhaa.  23 Amagyet, the former Amagyet, they could be close  24 together, but he doesn't own that territory.  It owned  25 by Kliiyemlaxhaa.  26 Q   So I take it that you disagree with this note?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   Now, referring, My Lord, to Tab 14 in these notes,  29 page 225.  30 Mr. Muldoe, on your map, Exhibit 486, you have  31 territory D, Wii Elaast; correct?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   And that's the Giist territory?  34 A   Giist.  35 Q   And Giist Creek flows through the centre of that  36 territory?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Now, I'm showing you another one of Mr. Sterritt's  39 notes and it appears to be a discussion with you on  40 June 12, 1979, about Giist Creek?  41 A   Yes.  42 Q   Do you recall discussing that with Mr. Sterritt?  43 A   Yeah, I believe I discussed that with Sterritt.  44 Q   And he wrote down there that Luus owns both sides of  45 Giist Creek?  46 A  Well, that could be just a misunderstanding.  That  47 Giist Creek been set in there by itself right along. 6559  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 It might be some misunderstanding of the way he had  2 him put that down.  That Giist Creek is formerly owned  3 by Daniel Skawill, and they have some dispute about  4 that quite a few years back, I wouldn't know just  5 exactly what year.  And Alice Williams was the one  6 that, one of Daniel Skawill's -- I don't know whether  7 his brother's daughter, and Daniel Skawill got no use  8 for that place because that place is just so small.  9 It's only about two and a half hours and you'll be up  10 at the end and then back again.  So Alice Williams,  11 the oldest, go around toward with Luus so he give her  12 the territory to pass it on.  Then some disputes  13 arrived after Alice Williams died and Johnny Moore and  14 another person, I forgot his -- he's an old man,  15 and -- George Wilson I think his name is, so they -- I  16 believe he takes Alice to the court and he -- they  17 take that to the court and they started talking about  18 it and that's when Daniel Skawill come into that court  19 and he told the court all about what he had been done.  20 He take that territory and give it to the daughter and  21 ever since then Alice owns that place.  So actually  22 it's not Luus, it's used to be belongs by the former  23 frog clan.  24 Q   When was that dispute about the territory?  25 A   That's a long time ago.  I wouldn't know this.  2 6 Q   And —  27 A   But they told me about it, some dispute on it.  28 Q   And where was the court that heard the dispute?  29 A   I don't know where they took it to.  30 Q   But I guess you'll agree with me that it was a court  31 outside of the Gitksan chiefs?  32 A   That could be.  33 Q   That's —  34 A   I wouldn't know where they take it to.  They maybe go  35 to D.I.A. or somebody or into the provincial court.  I  36 wouldn't know it.  37 Q   So in summary you disagree with the notes I've just  38 shown you?  39 A   Yes, I disagree with that note.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:   Now, My Lord, I'm going to refer to the — read  41 in some examination for discovery.  42 THE COURT:  Can I put the affidavit away?  43 MR. MACKENZIE:  44 Q   Yes, My Lord.  Starting with the questions 27 to 30,  45 My Lord.  I'm going to read these questions and  46 answers so that you can follow along with me if you  47 would please, Mr. Muldoe.  And now here's the question 6560  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 27.  2  3 "27 Q   Thank you.  When did you receive the name  4 Gitludahl?  5 A  After Uncle Moses Morgan — "  6  7 You mean Morrison don't you?  8 A  Morrison.  It's not Morgan.  9  10 " -- passed away, what in '85?  11 28 Q   Was he Gitludahl before you?  12 A   Yes.  13 29 Q   He held that name?  14 A   Yeah.  15 30 Q   How did you take the name?  16 A  Well, it was about fifteen or twenty years  17 before he died, he chose me to take his name  18 and he take me to the band office, took me  19 to the Indian office and told me that there  2 0 was, I was to take his name.  And I have the  21 rights to speak before he owns -- I have the  22 rights to use everything.  I can't use that  23 name until he passed away."  24  25 Q   Were you asked those questions?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Did you give those answers?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   And were the answers true?  30 A   The answers true.  31 Q   Now, referring to question 68 to 71, My Lord.  32  33 "68 Q   Does Wiiseeks have his own territory?"  34  35 A   Yes.  36 Q  37  38 "  A   Yes, they do."  39  40 A  Well, they do.  41 Q  42  43 "69 Q   And is that territory different from the  44 territory of Gitludahl?  45 A   Yes.  46 70 Q   And it is also different --  47 A   Yes. 6561  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 71 Q   — from Wiigyet's — "  2  3 That's W-i-i-g-y-e-t.  4  5 " -- territory?  6 A   Yeah, yeah."  7  8 Were you asked those questions?  9 A   I believe I did.  10 Q   Did you give those answers?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And were the answers true?  13 A   It's true because they don't have the same territory.  14 They could have the same name, could be the same clan,  15 but —  16 Q   Now, question 73 to 77.  17  18 "73 Q   When you were a young man, did you work in  19 Forestdale?  20 A   Yes.  21 74 Q   What did you do there?  22 A  Well, in the first place I was just helping  23 with my brother tie making.  24 75 Q   That is ties for the railroad?  25 A   Yes.  2 6 76 Q   And did that mean that you would have to go  27 out in the woods and cut trees?  28 A   Um-hum."  29  30 A   Uh-huh.  Isn't that something?  31 Q   Question 77.  32  33 "77 Q   Yes?  34 A   Yes."  35  36 Q   Were you asked those questions?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   Did you give those answers?  39 A   Yes.  40 Q   Were the answers true?  41 A   It's true.  42 Q   Question 79 to 87.  Question 79.  43  44 "79 Q   And then after you worked in Forestdale did  45 you go down to Francois Lake and Nadina?  46 A   Oh, yes, Francis Lake.  47 80 Q   Francis Lake? 6562  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Yes.  2 81 Q   What did you do there?  3 A   Taking out contracting ties; my  4 brother-in-law, contracting ties for the  5 Prince Rupert Logging Company, and I was  6 working with him.  7 82 Q   Who was your brother-in-law?  8 A   Gabriel Louie.  9 83 Q   Gabriel?  10 A   Louie.  11 84 Q   Where was he from?  12 A   He was from Moricetown.  13 85 Q   Do you remember where you used to cut trees  14 down around Francis Lake?  15 A  We used to cut trees up along the head of  16 the Francis Lake right around, close by  17 Nadina River and along the Francis Lake;  18 along side of the lake.  19 86 Q   Was that on Gabriel Louie's land?  20 A   No, it is, it was taken by the Prince Rupert  21 Logging Company; taking the limit out and we  22 work those places.  23 87 Q   So, you were just working for the Prince  24 Rupert Logging Company?  25 A   Yeah, that's right."  26  27 Were you asked those questions?  28 A   It's true.  2 9 Q   And you gave those answers?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And the answers were true?  32 A   Yes.  33 Q   Now, question 133 to 143.  Question 133.  34  35 "133 Q   I see.  Now, after you trapped that winter  36 you went commercial fishing?  37 A   Yes.  38 134 Q   Where did you fish?  39 A   Oh, I fished for the B.C. Packers and — "  40  41 Q   Now, you were speaking about in 1931 weren't you?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   Yes.  Question 135.  44  45 "135 Q   Did -- I am sorry, I did not mean to  46 interrupt.  47 A   Fished for the Canadian Fishing, and I 6563  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 fished also for the A.B.C. fishing company.  2 136 Q   Was that down at the coast?  3 A   Yes.  4 137 Q   Did you have your own fishing licence?  5 A  Well, when I first begin to fish I was just  6 assistant fisherman with the other  7 fisherman.  8 138 Q   Yes.  9 A   I just don't remember what year when I take  10 out my own licence.  11 139 Q   But you did eventually --  12 A   Yes.  13 140 Q   -- take your own?  14 A   Yeah, yeah.  15 141 Q   You have fished for a long time; have you  16 not?  17 A   Yeah.  18 142 Q   Do you still fish commercially now?  19 A   Yeah.  20 143 Q   Do you have a licence now?  21 A   Oh, yeah, fish for over fifty years."  22  23 Were you asked those questions?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   Did you give those answers?  26 A   Yeah, I gave those answers.  27 Q   And the answers are true?  2 8 A  And it's true.  29 Q   Questions 416 to 422.  Question 416.  30  31 "416 Q   Do you know the adaawk of Gitludahl?  32 A   (NO ANSWER).  33 417 Q   I am probably not pronouncing that word  34 correctly.  35 MR. RUSH:  Maybe I can help.  3 6 MR. PLANT:  Yes.  37 MR. RUSH:  I am not sure if I can do it -- adaawk.  38 A   Yeah.  3 9 MR. PLANT:  Some day —  4 0 A   Yeah.  41 MR. GRANT:  Mr. Plant asked if you knew the adaawk of  42 Gitludahl.  43 A  Well, I don't know too much about it.  4 4 MR. PLANT:  45 418 Q   You know some of it?  46 A   Some of it.  47 Q   Who was it that taught you the adaawk, or 6564  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 part of it?  2 A   Gitludahl himself taught me.  He give, he  3 give us, used to tell us, but hardly  4 remember.  Denii -- "  5  6 D-e-n-i-i.  7  8 "-- has been with us when he was telling us  9 all this adaawk.  10 420 Q   I am sorry?  11 A   Denii.  12 421 Q   I am sorry.  And does Denii know it?  13 A   Yes.  14 422 Q   Does Denii know the adaawk of Gitludahl?  15 A   Yeah, he know part of it, I think."  16  17 Were you asked those questions?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Did you give those answers?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Were the answers true?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   Question 423 to 425.  Question 423.  24  25 "423 Q   Where is it that Bruce Campbell used to  2 6 farm?  27 A   He had, he take up a place, at the place  28 they called Nadat, it is one of the lakes  29 along the Kispiox River. It on the  30 Gitludahl's territory.  31 424 Q   And Bruce Campbell is a white man?  32 A   Yes.  33 425 Q   And how long did he take that up, that  34 place?"  35  36 THE COURT:  How long "ago".  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  38 Q   I beg your pardon, My Lord.  Question 425.  39  40 "425 Q   And how long ago did he take that up, that  41 place?  42 A  Must have taken up the place more than  43 fifteen years ago; may be more."  44  45 Were you asked those questions?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   Did you give those answers? 6565  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 A   Yes.  2 Q   Are the answers true?  3 A   It's true.  4 Q   And that's Bruce Campbell who had a farm on your  5 territory at Twin Lakes?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   Question 429 to 440.  Question 429.  8  9 "429 Q   One of the things you say is "There is a man  10 farming where Bruce Campbell used to farm up  11 the valley."  12 A   Um-hum.  13 430 Q   Does that mean, does Bruce Campbell still  14 farm up the valley?  15 A   He was farming up there during the time, all  16 that time.  I think he sold the place to one  17 of the Americans.  He is no longer up there  18 now, but there is American up there bought a  19 place off Bruce Campbell.  20 431 Q   You do not know his name?  21 A   No.  22 432 Q   And that is a farm on Gitludahl's territory?  23 A   Yes.  24 433 Q   There are other people, other white people  25 who have been farming up the Kispiox Valley;  26 have there not been?  27 A   I think this Bruce Campbell is about the  28 last one that has farmed up there, I think.  29 434 Q   How about further down closer to Kispiox  30 Village?  31 A   (NO ANSWER).  32 MR. GRANT:  Do you mean on Gitludahl's territory or  33 somewhere else?  34 MR. PLANT: No, actually not on Gitludahl's territory.  35 MR. RUSH: Yes.  3 6 MR. PLANT:  37 435 Q   And let me see if I can ask this; I am not  38 asking you about Gitludahl's territory but  39 closer to Kispiox Village there are some  40 white people who have been farming there for  41 a long time; are there not?  42 A  Well, there is another farm just down below  43 where I had my cabin there, not up there,  44 but I don't know whose name is, it's on  45 to -- I forget the girl's name there.  It's  46 on my son's territory.  He have an Indian  47 name, but I don't remember.  He is farming 6566  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 there and also quite a few farms this side  2 under Earl's territory, too, and Marty  3 Allen, I believe, he have a little place,  4 Jenkins, Marty Allen had a big farm up  5 there, and some of them I can't remember."  6  7 When you referred to "Earl" here, were you  8 referring to your son Earl Muldoe?  9 A   Yeah.  He was the one that holding the -- he was the  10 one that holding the territory and the one he had on  11 Delgamuukw on the Ironside.  12 Q   Ironside Creek?  13 A   Ironside, and right down to Elizabeth Lake and right  14 down to Xsi Duutswit.  15 Q   That's Kline Lake?  16 A   I think it was Kline Lake.  17 Q   Oh, yes, that appears on Exhibit 486 in the lower part  18 of the Delgamuukw territory?  19 A   Yeah, Ironside there.  All the farm down in the lower.  20 Q   You're referring --  21 A  All along there.  22 Q   Referring to --  23 A   The land along Xsi Duutswit River.  24 Q   Referring to Exhibit 486, territory L on your  25 affidavit on Delgamuukw territory.  Question 436.  26  27 "436 Q   Bill Love?  28 A   Bill Love.  29 437 Q   Bill Love has been there a long time, has he  30 not?  31 A   Yeah, been there all his life, I guess.  32 438 Q   Yes.  33 A  And also Campbell, Ted Campbell, Alfred  34 Ginguard -- I don't remember his name, I  35 can't remember his name, we built a house,  36 but I don't remember his name.  37 439 Q   You built a house —  38 A  We built a house for him on his farm, but I  39 don't remember his name.  40 440 Q   How long ago was that?  41 A   Four years back, sometimes then.  It starts  42 about four miles out of Kispiox Village.  43 All farms right up to, as far as Bruce  44 Campbell's, just a space in between there  45 and, of course, they're all on different  46 territory."  47 6567  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Mackenzie  1 Were you asked all those questions I've just read?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And I'm speaking about questions 429 to 440.  And did  4 you give those answers?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And were the answers true?  7 A   True.  8 Q   Question 444 to 445.  9  10 "444 Q   When you trap on your territory sometimes  11 you sell the furs; do you not?  12 A   Um-hum.  13 445 Q   I probably did not hear that, so, I will say  14 it again.  When you trap -- I will have to  15 ask it again -- when you trap on your  16 territory you sell some of the furs; do you  17 not?  18 A   Um-hum.  Yes."  19  20 Were you asked those questions?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   Did you give those answers?  23 A   Yes, I give those answers.  24 Q   Were the answers true?  25 A   It's true.  26 MR. MACKENZIE:  I have no further questions, My Lord.  27 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Miss Koenigsberg, do you want to start?  28 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Sure.  I can make good progress I think.  2 9 THE COURT:  Thank you.  30 MR. RUSH: Well, My Lord, before my learned friend begins there  31 are a number of the documents that are scattered  32 throughout the various volumes which have not been  33 made exhibits and I wonder if now would be the  34 appropriate time to deal with those and either take  35 them out of the books or deal with them, because if my  36 friend has got some basis upon which he wants to enter  37 them as exhibits, then I think that matter should be  38 dealt with before my learned friends starts.  39 MR. MACKENZIE:  Mr. Rush reminds me that I have the certified  40 copies of the crown grants as well to be marked as  41 exhibits proper.  42 THE COURT:  Well, are you ready to deal with that question, Mr.  43 Mackenzie, or would it be more convenient if the  44 cross-examination started, you looked at those matters  45 over the luncheon adjournment, and we dealt with it  46 right after lunch?  47 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord, that would be more convenient. 656?  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 THE COURT:  Is that satisfactory, Mr. Rush?  2 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  3 THE COURT:  Miss Koenigsberg?  4  5 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KOENIGSBERG:  6 Q   Mr. Muldoe, I'm going to try standing here and see if  7 you can hear me, and if not I'll move over a bit.  8 A   You can come over.  9 MS. KOENIGSBERG:   I never refuse an invitation like that.  If  10 you'll excuse me, Mr. Mackenzie.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  I never interfere with an invitation like that.  12 THE WITNESS:   You got to speak up because my hearing's not that  13 good.  14 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  15 Q   I understand.  Thank you.  I want to ask you some  16 questions about the Gitksan rules about adoption and I  17 want to ask you those questions because on your  18 genealogy in the house of Gitludahl everyone who is in  19 that house today was adopted into that house; is that  20 correct?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   In order to be adopted into a house, who has to give  23 permission for that adoption?  24 A  Well, could be the chief of the house or any one of  25 the members in the house, and they have to give that  26 permission into -- into the feast house.  27 Q   Okay.  In your discovery you were asked about Fern  2 8 Stevens; do you remember that?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And she was adopted into your house?  31 A   She was adopted.  32 Q   But you didn't give permission for her to be adopted  33 in?  34 A   I didn't give permission.  That was given by Alvin  35 Weget because Alvin and I, we're both together in  36 there.  37 Q   So that's an example --  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   -- of when someone can be adopted into the house --  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   -- without the chief's permission?  It's someone  42 else's permission?  43 A   It's Alvin and I, we just close together and we both  44 in the same house and he asked me first before he give  45 that.  46 Q   Okay.  Was it necessary for him to ask your  47 permission? 6569  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 A  Well, he did ask permission from me and I have to  2 agree with him because he can give it.  3 Q   Okay.  In order for a person to be adopted into a  4 house, does that person have to be of the same clan?  5 A   But I don't know just why Alvin wants -- wants adopt  6 his daughter.  I maybe can tell you a story about it  7 because Fern Stevens and her husband they related and  8 they're both wolf clan, so Alvin didn't like that so  9 he wants to send his daughter adopted into a fireweed  10 clan.  11 Q   I see.  So in that instance the reason for the  12 adoption was so that two Gitksan people who were  13 married who were of the same clan would not be of the  14 same clan?  15 A   No, because on the Indian law they don't allow the  16 Gisg'aast clan or the wolf clan to be intermarriage  17 with any one of them -- any one of their own family.  18 They got to be a wolf or a frog clan, fireweed clan,  19 and so on like that.  20 Q   And so one of the ways you can fix the problem if two  21 people marry of the same clan is that one of the  22 persons becomes adopted into another clan's house?  23 A   That's right.  24 Q   So you can have adoptions from different clans -- I  25 mean, in the same house, people of different clans; is  26 that correct?  Shall I try that again?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   You can have adoptions into a house of persons from  29 different clans than the house they're being adopted  30 into?  31 A  Well, you can't -- you can't adopt anybody into that  32 house unless they ask to be adopted.  33 Q   Yes?  34 A   But we can't adopt anybody.  Like if you want to be in  35 my house, I can adopt you just like that.  36 Q   You don't have to have a feast?  37 A   You got to have a feast.  38 Q   That brings me to another question.  39 A   That's when the people are witnessing the feast when  4 0 you taking the name.  41 Q   So that when there is an adoption into a house, you  42 must have a feast to announce that adoption?  43 A  Well, sometimes you just might take -- they'll just  44 wait until something comes up.  They can't just put up  45 a feast just for the taking the name.  If any person  46 that pass on or you might put up a pole or you might  47 have put up a headstone or anything like that, that's 6570  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 when they usually have the feast.  When they put up a  2 pole or someone raises a pole or somebody passes on,  3 that's when you put a feast.  Then they'll go in and  4 they'll give out the names, but they can't put up no  5 feast just for the name.  6 Q   There's no specific feast just to confirm an adoption,  7 is that what you mean?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   Now, we've spoken about your house today.  All of the  10 members were adopted in?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   Is it -- is it common among the Gitksan houses for  13 adoptions to occur?  14 A   Yes.  It's -- if any one of their own clan or -- they  15 can be adopted into the house, or if they ask for it  16 like.  17 Q   And to move away just from your house, your wife is  18 Lottie Harris?  19 A   Yes.  2 0 Q   And she was adopted --  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   -- into the house of Luus?  23 A   Yes.  Not Luus.  24 Q   She -- okay.  On Luus' genealogy she's shown as having  25 been adopted into the house of Luus, you know that?  26 A   She's adopted to the house of Delgamuukw.  27 Q   Yes.  Today she is shown as having been adopted into  28 the house of Delgamuukw?  29 A   Yes.  Well, she's been -- the way it is in the Indian  30 law if any one of the family in the house begin to  31 decrease approximately, like you see Delgamuukw is, he  32 was the last person that's alive in the former  33 Delgamuukw, he's the last person that's alive, and  34 when that last person is died or before they see this  35 family going to be decreased and be gone, so they have  36 to be -- they have to make an adoption to have a woman  37 into that house.  So they'll have a family and take  38 over any territory, whatever they belonged, and they  39 tell that into the feast house and the chiefs have --  40 that's why the chiefs have to be sitting there to  41 witness what's going on there.  If everything goes  42 fine, they'll speak up and they'll tell them that it's  43 the proper way they can do it, but it's the only other  44 way that you can adopt things like that.  45 Q   Okay.  Speaking about your wife's adoption into the  46 house of Delgamuukw, what house was she in before she  47 was adopted into the house of Delgamuukw? 6571  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 A   She was in the house of Luus.  2 Q   Okay.  And do you know if she was adopted into the  3 house of Luus?  4 A   She was adopted into -- well, actually she belongs to  5 Luus' house.  She wasn't even adopted into Luus'  6 house.  7 Q   I see.  Her mother was in the house of Luus?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   Okay.  And when your wife was adopted into the house  10 of Delgamuukw, it was Abel Tait --  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   -- that adopted her?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   And all of your children were adopted along with your  15 wife into the house of Delgamuukw?  16 A  Well, actually the wife's been adopted into the house  17 of Delgamuukw and there's just -- automatically all  18 her children just belong to Delgamuukw's house.  19 Q   All right.  Was your wife adopted into the house of  20 Delgamuukw before she had your children?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   Okay.  Is it always the case that if a person is  23 adopted, a woman is adopted into a house, that her  24 children will be members of that house?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And when a person is adopted into the house, let's  27 take the example of Delgamuukw, your wife into  28 Delgamuukw, does she have all of the rights to use the  29 territory of Delgamuukw as if she was a member of that  30 house without being adopted?  31 A   Yes, she have -- she have the right to use all the  32 territory, even the fishing site, and on the  33 Delgamuukw's territory all the fishing sites, and all  34 their children have the right and even her  35 grandchildren have the right to trap on there or to  36 fish or hunt anything what they want.  37 Q   Do you know of an adoption that can occur in which a  38 person can be adopted into the house, a woman adopted  39 into a house, and her children would not be adopted  40 into the house?  41 A   Just come back on that, please?  42 MS. KOENIGSBERG:   Do you know if there can be an adoption,  43 according to the Gitksan law, where a woman is adopted  44 into the house, into a house, but her children are not  45 adopted into the house?  4 6    THE COURT:  You mean her children are alive at the time of the  47 adoption or subsequent -- 6572  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Or ones that might come after.  2 MR. RUSH:  That's two questions.  3 THE WITNESS:   I think I answered that already.  4 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  5 Q   Pardon?  6 A   I think I answered that question already.  7 MS. KOENIGSBERG:   Okay.  I'm just not clear.  8 THE COURT:  No, you haven't.  9 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  10 Q   Let me ask you again.  Is there a practise by which a  11 woman could be adopted into a house and she has  12 children at the time she's adopted into the house, but  13 the children are not adopted; can that happen?  14 A  Well, if the woman's been adopted before she have her  15 children and she have the children they're -- all her  16 children is automatically belong to that house.  17 Q   Okay.  18 A   She -- they don't have to be adopted into a house  19 because the woman's already adopted into the house.  20 Q   All right.  Okay.  What if she had children before she  21 was adopted into the house and then she's adopted into  22 the house, what happens to her children?  Do they have  23 to be adopted into the house?  24 A   They have to be adopted into the house.  25 THE COURT:  So it is not possible for a woman with children to  26 be adopted without the children also being adopted?  27 THE INTERPRETER: Could you say that again?  28 THE COURT:  What you're telling me is that it is not possible to  29 adopt a woman who has children without also adopting  30 her children?  31 THE WITNESS:   Yes, they can be adopted.  32 THE COURT: It is possible?  33 THE INTERPRETER: Uh-huh.  34 THE COURT: All right.  It's possible that we should have lunch.  35 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Thank you, My Lord.  36 THE REGISTRAR: Order in court.  Court will adjourn until two.  37  38 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 12:30 FOR LUNCH RECESS)  39  40 I hereby certify the foregoing to  41 be a true and accurate transcript  42 of the proceedings herein to the  43 best of my skill and ability.  44  45 Tanita S. French  46 Official Reporter  47 6573  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Recalling Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the  4 Queen at bar, my lord.  5 THE COURT:  Miss Koenigsberg.  6 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Thank you, my lord.  7  8 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. KOENIGSBERG, Continued:  9 Q   Mr. Muldoe, I want to take one last run at this issue  10 of adoption and ask -- and explore with you a little  11 further the rule with regard or the rules with regard  12 to women being adopted into the -- into a house --  13 A   Yeah.  14 Q   -- and what happens to their children.  I think you  15 told your lordship that it was possible for a woman to  16 be adopted into a house and her children not be  17 adopted?  18 A  Well —  19 Q   Would that be possible?  20 A   I believe it's up to that chief to -- decision to make  21 that, whether they can take the children in or not.  22 Q   So the rule is it's up to the chief --  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   -- who is adopted and whether their whole family goes  25 with them?  26 A   Yes.  27 Q   Okay.  And one last question on the topic of adoption.  28 Can a non-Gitksan person, and by that I mean an Indian  29 person who would be non-Gitksan, be adopted into a  30 house?  31 A  Well, supposing if -- if -- like if any -- any white  32 lady can be married to Gitksan people, well, she is  33 automatically become involved in the non-Indian -- I  34 mean non-white.  But if they had their own children,  35 that can be automatically into the house of wherever  36 she is adopted.  If they adopt any children outside  37 that is non-Indian, they cannot adopt them unless they  38 go through so many years and they want to keep them in  39 there for their own, then they can decide to adopt  40 them.  41 Q   Okay.  I think I understand that.  Now, let's talk  42 about an Indian person --  43 A   Yeah.  44 Q   -- who's not a Gitksan.  45 A   Yes.  46 Q   They can be adopted into a house?  47 A   They can be adopted if they live long enough in -- 6574  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  A  THE COURT  MR.  into the village or something like that.  But after  they passed away, they got no more rights in it.  If a person, an Indian person, who is not Gitksan, is  adopted into your house, can that person become a  chief?  Well, could name them as chief after they is adopted,  but if he dies, well, that's the end of it.  When you say if he dies that's the end of it, you mean  his children would not have rights in that house?  No.  A  THE COURT  MS  So you are saying any adopted person can become a  chief in a house?  It is possible for a person to become a chief if he  has spent from 30 to 40 years within the clan and  after he passes on, then his power is no more.  Thank you.  KOENIGSBERG:  Q   And the rule you've just told his lordship applies  whether the person is Indian or non-Indian if they are  adopted and they are there long enough?  THE INTERPRETER:  Could you say it again?  MACKENZIE:  Q   The rule you've just described applies to both Indian  and non-Indian persons who are adopted; they can  become chiefs so long as they are in -- live within  the clan for 30 to 40 years, is that right?  Yes.  I am going to change the subject now and I'd like to  ask you some questions about the family of Simon  Gunanoot.  Did you know Simon Gunanoot?  I see him when I am just young.  He's -- that must be  about the last time I see him I think he's -- first  time I seen him is in about 1914.  That's the first  time I seen him when he give himself up.  Okay.  You might have read about his story.  Yes, I have read about his story.  He was in the house  of Geel?  Yes.  And he held the chief's name, Geel?  Yes.  That's G-e-e-1.  And do you know who his father was,  Simon Gunanoot's father, do you know who that was?  They mention his name, but I never even seen his  father.  I was just a kid when during that time.  Did you know his father to be Thomas Danes Sr.?  I don't even know it.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A 6575  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  THE COURT  9  MS. KOENI  10  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  A  18  19  20  Q  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  Q  38  A  39  Q  40  A  41  42  Q  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  You don't know it.  I'd now like to ask you a couple  of questions about Martha Brown.  Did you know Martha  Brown?  Yes.  And she held the chief's name Skiik'm lax ha?  Yes.  I will try the spelling of that.  I think it's -- 59.  :  Yes.  5SBERG:   Mr. Rush tells me I may have made a mistake  and he's probably right.  Which chief's name did Martha Brown hold?  Kliiyem lax haa.  Kliiyem lax haa, not Skiik'm lax ha?  Yeah.  And that's number 35.  And Skiik'm lax ha, the first  name, number 59, is Johnny Wilson?  I don't remember who's holding the naming before  Martha Brown.  But now Martha Brown's daughter is  holding that name.  The name Kliiyem lax haa?  Yes.  Martha Brown's daughter has that name now?  Yes.  Okay.  You don't know who held that before Martha  Brown?  No.  Okay.  Now, I want to ask you about Skiik'm lax ha,  Johnny Wilson.  Johnny Wilson?  Yes.  Oh, it's a different.  I thought you mean the same.  I  know Johnny, but I never did know his chief's name.  Okay.  You don't know who held Johnny Wilson's chief's  name Skiik'm lax ha - did I come closer? - before  Johnny Wilson?  No.  Did you know Daniel Skawill?  Yes.  I seen him.  Do you know what chief's name he held?  Only at the time I know him they always call him  Skawill.  Earlier when Mr. Mackenzie was asking you some  questions, you were talking about the Giist territory.  Do you remember that?  Whose territory?  Giist.  Giist? 6576  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Q   Yes.  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   And you said that Daniel Skawill had given that  4 territory to Alice Williams?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   What is the relationship between Daniel Skawill and  7 Alice Williams?  8 A  Well, Daniel Skawill is in the Frog Clan and Alice  9 Williams is in the Wolf Clan.  But one of the --  10 either one of the Daniel Skawill's brothers is the  11 daughter of Alice Williams.  And that little place,  12 Giist, they call it, it's only about two and a half  13 mile or three mile up in the mountain and just a  14 little piece there and it wasn't good enough for the  15 other people to hold, so Alice Williams was always  16 around Kuldo with Luus.  She is out of Luus' family,  17 so Daniel decide to give that piece of hunting-ground  18 to the daughter, Alice Williams, and from there on  19 that's been belonged to Alice Williams.  20 Q   Okay.  I want to ask you some questions about a very  21 different subject and I want to ask you about the  22 house of -- I'll call it Wiigyet, W-i-i-g-y-e-t.  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Alexander White held the name Wiigyet?  25 A  Alexander White was the holder in the name of Wiigyet.  26 Q   Wiigyet.  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   We are still talking about W-i-i-g-y-e-t, are we,  29 Madam Interpreter?  30 THE INTERPRETER:  Yes.  31 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  32 Q   And then Joe Starr took the name from Alexander?  33 A   Yes.  After he passed on.  34 Q   Okay.  I would just like to show you a picture.  35 MR. RUSH:  You can show it to me first.  36 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  Sorry.  37 Q   Do you recognize the person in that picture?  38 A   I don't know -- I never seen that picture.  I don't  39 recognize it.  40 Q   You don't recognize the person?  41 A   No.  42 Q   I just tell you that on the back it says Old Wiigyet,  43 although it says Kitsegukla and I just wondered  44 whether it might be Alexander White?  45 A   No.  46 Q   But you don't recognize it?  47 A   No.  The only reason why the Kitsegukla people, they 6577  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 have that name of Wiigyet is one of the women from  2 Wiigyet's house she probably be using one of the name  3 of Wiigyet when she moved to Kitsegukla, married in  4 there, and from there on that's how the Kitsegukla got  5 that name and they still use them, but we're not  6 involved in them.  They have their own territory.  7 Q   And so if this person is holding the name of Wiigyet  8 in Kitsegukla, they are not related?  9 A  Who's holding the name of Wiigyet?  10 Q   I don't know.  Oh, today?  You mean in Kispiox?  You  11 mean in Kitsegukla?  I don't know.  12 A   I don't know one Wiigyet and Kispiox.  Larry Morrison  13 and I think one of the former Wiigyet died in  14 Kitsegukla just last winter.  It's Turner.  15 Q   Oh.  Yes.  16 A   Then I think it's Roy Wesley takes over that name.  17 Q   Okay.  I want to ask you some more questions about  18 Alexander White.  Did Alexander White have a daughter  19 by the name of Donna or Dona?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Yes.  Do you know if -- were you aware that he left  22 her some -- a berry patch or a berry hill and a small  23 trapline in a will?  24 A   No.  25 Q   You never heard that?  26 A   Never mention anything like that to me.  27 Q   I'd now like to talk to you about the fishing sites.  28 When Mr. Rush asked you questions he asked you a lot  29 of questions about the fishing sites along the Skeena.  30 Do you remember that?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   I just would like to ask you some questions about  33 those fishing sites and see if we can come at an  34 understanding about persons who may have held those  35 fishing sites earlier.  And I am going to refer to a  36 schedule of fishing sites which became Exhibit 69H in  37 the commission of Martha Brown and they were 3C in  38 that commission.  Mr. Muldoe, I've just put in front  39 of you a schedule of fishing sites and this is  40 supposed to be the Skeena River.  Just to orient you a  41 little better.  This was prepared a long time ago and  42 it was put to Martha Brown when she gave commission  43 evidence.  And I just -- it's hard to read, but it  44 appears to identify fishing sites along both the east  45 and west side of the Skeena.  And I'd like to try and  46 see if we can identify some of these fishing sites in  47 relation to the fishing sites that you told us about. 6578  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  The first on the east side or what is said to be the  east side on the document in front of you, the first  site, and I can tell you that this is above the  junction of the Kispiox.  COURT:  What is above the junction, the bottom of the chart  or --  KOENIGSBERG:  The bottom of this, of the schedule.  COURT:  All right.  KOENIGSBERG:  And maybe it would orient it a little better.  There is an accompanying document and maybe it will  just orient us.  It was marked as 3A.  COURT:  Does it have a number at the trial?  KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  It would be 68.  Madam Registrar, what  number was that given at this trial?  REGISTRAR:  68F.  KOENIGSBERG:  Q   Mr. Muldoe, I am going to put another document in  front of you just to orient you.  If you look at this  document and this was 3A on Martha Brown's commission  and is now G, was it?  REGISTRAR:  F.  KOENIGSBERG:  Q   F.  You'll see that document 3C on Martha Brown's  commission is the right-hand side, the Skeena side of  3A.  Do you see that?  A  What number?  Q   We look here.  A   Pretty hard to identify this if they are all on a  straight line like that.  Q   That's right.  And it's a little easier to at least  see the names on --  A   On beside this writing there, I can't hardly read it.  Q   That's right.  I am going to try and read it to you.  A   Yes.  Q   Just the English names to see if we can identify any  of them.  But do you see now that the bottom of 3A  starts with the Skeena and then there is the junction  of the Skeena and the Kispiox and the Skeena goes off  to the right and what we're looking at here on 3C is  the right-hand side, just the Skeena alone.  Do you  see that?  A   Yes.  Q   Okay.  I'll leave 3A in front of you, but I'm going to  read from 3C.  A   Is that the junction of the Kispiox and the Skeena?  Q   Yes.  It says Kispiox village.  COURT:  There is also a significant line there showing the  1  2  3  4  5  THE  6  7  MS.  8  THE  9  MS.  10  11  12  THE  13  MS.  14  15  THE  16  MS.  17  18  19  20  21  THE  22  MS.  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE 6579  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 north extremity of the Indian reserve line of Kispiox.  2 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  3 THE COURT:  So the first one is north of the reserve.  4 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  Thank you, my lord.  5 Q   His lordship just pointed out that on 3A there is a  6 line going across which is labelled Indian reserve  7 line, and so all of the -- all of the fishing sites  8 which are located along the Skeena are above or north  9 of that line, north of the Indian reserve.  Okay?  10 Does that -- just so that you're oriented --  11 A   You mean this is the top part of the Indian reserve?  12 Q   Yes.  13 A   That's the north part of it.  14 Q   That's right.  The witness was just pointing to the  15 line.  16 THE COURT:  Yes.  17 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  18 Q   Now, just looking at 3C, the first English name on the  19 east side of the Skeena is -- looks to be Bob Metlos  20 or "loss", M-e-t-1-o-s.  Do you recognize that name?  21 A   No.  22 Q   The next site above it is Philip Williams.  You know  23 Philip Williams or you knew?  24 A  Who?  25 Q   Philip Williams?  26 A   I don't think I know him.  Not Philip Williams.  27 Q   Okay.  28 A  Well, in the first place they missed the fishing site  29 right at the junction of this village here.  There is  30 a fishing site right at the corner here they call Uuxs  31 ts'agit, and then there is a -- right in here there is  32 another three fishing site right on the reserve there.  33 Q   Yes.  34 A   They are not on there.  35 Q   And there are many fishing sites that you told us  36 about that are not on here?  37 A   I know.  Yeah.  38 Q   There are many fishing sites I am sure along the  39 Kispiox and probably the Skeena?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   That are not on here.  But what I would like to try to  42 do with you is identify, if we can, any of the fishing  43 sites which are noted here in relation to the ones  44 that you told us about.  Do you understand?  45 A  Well, the first fishing site is -- I think is outside  46 reserve is one of the -- one of the Kliiyem lax haa  47 and right across from that is Antgulibix. 6580  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Q Yes.  And if you look right across on 3C, if you look  2 right across here, that's George Williams?  3 A George Williams, yeah.  4 Q And he's in Antgulilbix house?  5 A Yes.  6 Q So that would seem to be close to the fishing site or  7 may be the fishing site?  8 A Just right about across.  Used the same little island.  9 Q Okay.   I'd just like to go on and see if you know any  10 of these people who are listed here?  11 A Yeah.  12 Q The next one going north from Philip Williams going  13 north on the east side of the Skeena I really can't  14 read very well.  It looks like Deeben, D-e-e-b-e-n.  15 A Philip Williams?  16 THE INTERPRETER:  There is Philip Williams and —  17 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  18 Q Do you recognize that name, Deeben?  19 A I don't think so.  20 Q No?  21 THE INTERPRETER:  Deeben.  22 A I know there is a fishing site there, but I wouldn't  2 3 know the name.  24 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  25 Q All right.  26 A The next one from George Williams belongs to the -- to  2 7 Delgamuukw.  28 Q Are you referring --  29 A That's the one —  30 Q Going north?  31 A Going on the west side.  32 Q On the west side of the Skeena?  33 A Yes.  34 Q You say just north of the one where George Williams is  35 noted?  36 A Yeah.  37 Q Belongs to Delgamuukw?  38 A Delgamuukw is -- they call it -- the name of that  39 fishing site is Gwanksim Xsi mihle mihle.  40 Q Did you know the name of a person by the name of  41 Solomon Johnson?  42 A That's the same place and above that, up above that is  43 Solomon Johnson and also Delgamuukw at the same place  44 all these fishing sites, that one and this one and the  45 next one and the third one.  46 Q Did you know Solomon Johnson?  47 A I knew him. 6581  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Q   And what house is he in?  2 A   Pardon?  3 Q   What house?  4 A   Delgamuukw.  5 Q   And just south of Solomon Johnson there is one noted  6 there as Samuel Johnson.  That's this one.  Samuel  7 Johnson.  Did you know Samuel Johnson?  Samuel?  8 A   Samuel Johnson.  Well, they are all in the same house.  9 Q   Delgamuukw?  10 A   Delgamuukw and Samuel Johnson and Johnny Johnson.  11 Q   Okay.  12 A   Johnny Johnson is the name of Delgamuukw.  13 Q   And you identified fishing sites on the west side of  14 the Skeena in approximately these locations as  15 belonging to Delgamuukw, is that correct?  Just north  16 of Antgulilbix?  17 A  Antgulilbix over here, and this is one of Delgamuukw's  18 and the next one they call Anax Biisxw and they also  19 have a fishing site right across from here, too, right  20 across from -- that's the same place.  21 Q   Delgamuukw has a fishing site you say right across  22 from where --  23 A   Right across.  They had about three different fishing  24 sites.  One right across and one just slightly down  25 below it, too.  26 Q   All right.  Just let me get that on the record.  You  27 say you are pointing to the spot now marked on this  28 exhibit as Solomon Johnson and you say that Delgamuukw  29 has another fishing site on the east side across  30 from --  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   -- that and just below it?  33 A  And one --  34 Q   On the east side?  35 A   One just a little bit below it.  36 Q   Okay.  37 A  And they all called it -- this one name is Anax  38 Biisxw.  39 MR. RUSH:  You should get that spelling.  40 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I am sorry.  Could I have the spelling of  41 that?  42 THE TRANSLATOR:  A-n-a-x underlined B-i-i-s-x-w.  43 THE COURT:  D-i-s?  44 THE INTERPRETER:  X-w.  45 THE TRANSLATOR:  B.  4 6 THE COURT:  B-i.  47 THE TRANSLATOR:  S-x-w. 6582  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 THE COURT:  Thank you.  2 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  3 Q   Okay.  We are just going to go north on the east side  4 of the Skeena here.  Do you know a person by the name  5 of Billy Williams?  6 A   Billy Williams.  I know a Billy Williams, but I don't  7 know where his fishing site is.  This next one, next  8 one from this one, that also belongs to the  9 Delgamuukw, too.  10 Q   Okay.  11 A   That's other people.  12 Q   All right.  13 A   But the person name is Niigap usually fish there, but  14 that still belongs on Delgamuukw.  15 Q   Niigap, N-i-i-g-a-p - did I come close there?  - is  16 the person you are referring to as fishing there?  17 A   Yes.  But that's only fished there just on account of  18 his father or something like that.  19 Q   And you are pointing to the fishing site marked on 3C  20 as Timothy Skoltz, S-k-o-l-t-z.  That's on the west  21 side of the Skeena.  Going back, if I can, with you to  22 the fishing site which says Billy Williams by it, you  23 don't know --  2 4 A   I don't know.  25 Q   -- the person Billy Williams?  2 6 A   No.  27 Q   Okay.  28 A   I know Billy Williams, but I don't know he had this  29 fishing site.  He died way back in early '20 or  30 something.  '25 or something like that.  31 Q   You don't know what house he was in?  32 A   No.  He belongs to -- he's in the house of Gutginuxw.  33 Q   Gutginuxw.  Number 14.  Moving north then, the next  34 fishing site on 3C is said to be fished by a person by  35 the name of Alexander?  36 A  Alexander.  37 Q   There are a number of Alexanders that could be, is  38 that right?  I wonder if Madam Interpreter can read  39 the Gitksan name that's just above Alexander.  Kohe,  40 K-o-h-e space.  41 THE INTERPRETER:  Kohe gwoa ma'let.  Kohe gwoa ma'let.  42 THE COURT:  How would you spell that word, G-w-o-a?  43 A   I know a lot of fishing site in there, but I just  44 can't recall the name on them.  45 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Okay.  Madam Interpreter, as I read that  46 across, it's K-o-h-e and then space and then G -- is  47 that G-w-o-a or s? 6583  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 THE INTERPRETER: That's what I don't know.  It doesn't look like  2 it's written the way we write things.  3 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  4 Q   Okay.  And then the next, then space, and then  5 m-a-'-1-e-t-'.  But you don't recognize that name, do  6 you?  7 A   No.  8 Q   Okay.  Going north, the next spot north on the east  9 side of the Skeena is marked Andrew Crosby.  Did you  10 know a person by the name of Andrew Crosby?  11 A   Yes, I know Andrew Crosby.  12 Q   And what house was he in?  13 A   He's on Gutginuxw.  14 Q   That was number 14.  And then continuing north I read  15 that as Nasgus.  16 THE INTERPRETER:  Angus.  17 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Angus?  No, I don't think so.  18 Q   I think it's a capital N-a-s-g-u-s.  You can't  19 recognize that?  2 0 A   No.  21 Q   All right.  Let's keep going north.  The next one is  22 Thomas Brown?  23 A   Thomas Brown.  That could be the one that Thomas  24 Brown's sister used to put up some fishing there, but  25 I just don't know the name of the place there.  But I  26 know where the place is.  27 Q   Okay.  What house would Thomas Brown have been in?  28 A   It's on -- they still in the same house as -- I forgot  29 the name of the house.  30 Q   We'll come back to it.  31 A   Yeah.  32 Q   And you tell us if you remember.  We are still going  33 north along the east side of the Skeena.  The next  34 name I read is Julius Noo'l, N-o-o-'-l.  Do you  35 recognize that name?  36 A   Pretty hard to read that thing.  37 Q   I am quite -- I am pretty sure that the first name is  38 Julius and on my copy maybe you can read that a little  39 bit better.  It looks like N-o-o-'-l.  You can't  40 recognize that name either?  41 A   No.  42 Q   Okay.  Continuing north, the last name attached to a  43 site on the east side of the Skeena is Moses Wilson.  44 Did you know Moses Wilson?  45 A   I know Moses Wilson from Hazelton, but I never know  46 that he had any fishing site up there.  47 Q   What house was Moses Wilson in, do you know? 6584  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  THE COURT  15  A  16  MS. KOENI  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  25  A  26  27  28  29  Q  30  A  31  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  Q  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  Q  43  A  44  Q  45  46  47  A  It's in Antgulilbix.  Okay.  And if we can, we'll just now go south along  the west side of the Skeena and see if you can  recognize any of the names along here.  It looks to be  like the first one is William Dick?  William Dick.  Or -- and there is another name.  It looks like  Gilligan or Gilligoom?  That's in Wauliip.  That's William Dick, Wii elaast.  In Wii elaast?  Wii elaast, yeah.  And that corresponds with the Wauliip that you told us  about?  :  Did he have a fishing site at Wauliip?  That's the last one up above there on the west side.  5SBERG:  And Wauliip belonged to the house of Wii elaast?  Yes.  Wii elaast?  Wii elaast.  Wii elaast.  And there is an Indian reserve there now?  Yes.  And just going south the name is Timothy Williams.  Do  you recognize that name?  Well, that is way before my time, I guess, but I  notice there is a fishing site down below this and  also I know the one that's over here, the one they  call An daix, but I don't know who is holding it now.  You don't know the name of Abraham Kale.  Kale?  Abraham Kale is -- I know him, but that's about four  Kale behind that.  Okay.  He died quite awhile ago.  Would that be another spelling for Geel?  Would that  be in the house of Geel?  Yeah.  And just going south then, Charles Wesley is the next  name?  Yes.  Did you know Charles Wesley?  Charles Wesley?  I know Charles Wesley.  What house?  It's Lax Gibuu clan.  Okay.  And just going continuing south, the next one  we have I believe that's Moses Niigap.  An odd  spelling for it?  I know only one place that Niigap was used to be on 6585  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MS.  THE  MS.  THE  MS.  A  Q  A  Q  A  this fishing, there was the one on Delgamuukw's  fishing site.  COURT:  How are you spelling that, Miss Koenigsberg,  L-e-g-e-e --  KOENIGSBERG:  Well, it looks like L-e-g-s-p-t.  And I've  seen -- I may have misled the witness, although Madam  Interpreter may be able to help us out.  I have seen  Niigap spelled in ways where it looked a lot like  that.  INTERPRETER:   I think it's N-i-g-a-p-t.  KOENIGSBERG:  Q   Was there such a person that you knew of as Moses  Niigap?  I know a person Moses Niigap.  The next going south -- let me just ask you.  Just  north of the Moses Niigap site is the one we were  talking about, Charles Wesley?  Uh-huh.  Did you know of a Niigap having their site just south?  I don't know.  There is a lot of fishing sites there,  but I don't know if he had one up there, but the only  place where he usually fishes is just on that  Delgamuukw's fishing site.  Okay.  As you are saying that you are just pointing to  the site which would -- which is two south of Moses  Niigap and it appears to be the name Walter Green.  Did you know the person named Walter Green?  Walter Green, it's still in the house of Delgamuukw.  His names Wa'a.  Okay.  Is that W-a-'-a?   And we've described one  here, just north of the site by which Walter Green's  name is, is Jonathan Johnson or Joshua Johnson.  Did  you know such a person?  I know Jonathan.  And did he have a fishing site in this area?  I know his sisters used to be up there, but I never  know the name of the place.  I am sorry, I don't know what the answer is, that he  knew --  I think that could be the one, Gwin lax Ts'al.  -- if it's Johnson fishing site or not.  KOENIGSBERG:  Q   Just sticking to Jonathan Johnson here for a moment,  you've just said that you thought it might be -- you  gave a name.  What was the site name?  Gwin lax Ts'al.  Gwin lax Ts'al.  His sister used to  be up there and also his father.  A  A  Q  A  THE COURT  A  COURT  A 6586  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Just wait a minute until the chief justice —  2 THE TRANSLATOR:  G-w-i-n.  3 THE COURT:  G-w-i-n.  4 THE TRANSLATOR:  l-a-x underlined T-s-'-a-l.  5 THE COURT:  Thank you.  That's the name of a site, is it?  6 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  7 Q   That's the name of a fishing site?  8 A   Yes.  9 Q   And is that fishing site near the site that has  10 Jonathan Johnson's name by it?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And you said that you knew that he had some sisters  13 fishing up in that area?  14 A   His sister and his fish -- his sister and his father  15 usually go up there, but I didn't know exactly who it  16 belonged to.  17 Q   We've talked about Walter Green who's the next one  18 south.  And after that --  19 MR. RUSH:  Just before you go on, my eye is telling me that that  20 looks more like Joshua Johnson.  I wondered if --  21 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I can ask him again.  22 Q   Did you know a person by the name of Joshua Johnson?  23 A   Joshua Johnson.  Yes.  24 Q   Is he related to Jonathan Johnson?  25 A   No.  He's related to Delgamuukw on the same house.  26 Q   Okay.  Could that be a fishing site, the one that  27 is -- where it could be Joshua Johnson there instead  28 of Jonathan Johnson, would that be the right place for  29 that?  30 A   I wouldn't know.  Any place where it's Delgamuukw's  31 fishing site it's also Joshua Johnson fishes in there  32 too.  33 Q   Okay.  And Delgamuukw's fishing sites would have been  34 near Moses Niigap, south of it?  35 A   The only one that where Moses Niigap used to fish is  36 that on Delgamuukw's fishing site.  I didn't know that  37 he had another one up above there.  38 Q   All right.  We've talked about Walter Green.  39 Continuing south, the next one was Timothy Skoltz.  40 Did you know Timothy Skoltz, S-k-o-l-t-z?  41 A   I think he died way before 1930.  42 Q   Did you know what house he was in?  43 A  At that time I -- could be in -- could be in -- I  44 think it's Frog Clan, I think.  But I don't know just  45 what house he was in.  46 Q   All right.  And then south of the spot called Timothy  47 Skoltz, or by which his name is, is Solomon Johnson 6587  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 and we've talked about that one and then Samuel  2 Johnson after that and then George Williams?  3 A   Yes.  4 Q   We've covered them all?  5 A   Yes.  6 MS. KOENIGSBERG:   Thank you.  My lord, since this has already  7 been marked as part of the commission --  8 THE COURT:  They are already exhibits at this trial.  9 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  10 THE COURT:  Thank you.  11 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  12 Q   The last area I'd like to ask you some questions about  13 has to do with the resolution which was presented to  14 the Special General Assembly of the Union of B.C.  15 Indian Chiefs by the hereditary Gitksan chiefs of the  16 Kispiox and the Skeena valleys.  And I'm just going to  17 put that in front of you, and it's -- I think it's  18 already been marked as an exhibit, but I apologize for  19 not knowing which one it is.  I'll find that out, my  20 lord.  It's number 10754 on the Attorney General's  21 list.  22 THE COURT:  The name is the B.C. Union of —  23 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Yes.  I am just handing up a copy to you, my  24 lord.  2 5 THE COURT:  Thank you.  26 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  It was 116 for identification.  27 Q   Do you recognize this document, Mr. Muldoe?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Yes.  And on the bottom of it a large number of  30 hereditary chiefs signed it and I believe your name?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   It was when you held the name Wii seeks?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   And this document related to the overlap between the  35 claim of the Nishga and the claim of the --  36 A   Pardon?  37 Q   This document related to the overlap --  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   -- of the claim between the Nishga --  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   — and the Gitksan?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   Is that correct?  And in reading this document on  44 the -- in the second paragraph it says:  45  46 "Whereas, the Nishga tribes are claiming certain  47 lands which are rightfully the lands of the 65?  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 Gitksan, be it hereby resolved that we direct our  2 elected representatives on the Gitksan/Carrier  3 Tribal Council to make land claims a priority  4 issue and ensure that the Gitksan's hereditary  5 lands as defined by all their registered traplines  6 be made known to the B.C. Land Claims Coordinator,  7 Mr. Philip Paul, and to the Nishga people."  8  9 What did you instruct the Tribal Council to do in  10 relation to defining your lands as those defined by  11 the registered traplines?  12 A  Well, the Nishga people, they are going right over  13 their territory of the Gitksan people.  They only  14 supposed to go up as far as along the Nass River.  And  15 Kitwancool boundary is on the Nass River and also the  16 Kitwanga boundary.  Well, they jumped -- they jumped  17 right over that and they claim -- they claim a piece  18 of land right in the Blackwater territory.  19 Q   Yes.  20 A  And so the chief asked them to come down to the  21 Kispiox and we're going to discuss this thing what  22 they want to do with it.  I think they send them a  23 couple of letters and they asked him to come down to  24 Kispiox and they will discuss it what they want to do,  25 but they wouldn't do it.  So finally they made  26 arrangements.  They asked the Gitksan people to go to  27 Terrace and discuss that.  So they went over to  28 Terrace and they came down from Terrace and they --  29 that's where they discussed this thing here.  But they  30 still wouldn't believe what's going on.  Actually what  31 happened is I think it's a lady from Blackwater  32 married to Nishga and they moved in there and she  33 thinks they going to have part to talk about Indian  34 Gitksan land, but it's not right.  35 Q   Okay.  I'd like to direct you specifically to the part  36 of that paragraph that I just read of this resolution  37 where it says that you are "directing the  38 Gitksan/Carrier Tribal Council to ensure that the  39 Gitksan's hereditary lands as defined by all their  40 registered traplines be made known to the B.C. Land  41 Claims Coordinator and to the Nishga people."  Were  42 you in 1975 when this resolution was passed -- you see  43 it says 1975 there?  44 A   This is dated 1975, yes.  45 Q   Yes.  In 1975 was it your position that the Gitksan  46 hereditary lands referred to here, that the boundaries  47 were defined by the trapline, the registered trapline? 6589  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1 A  Well, I don't think it's no more than about a half a  2 dozen hereditary, because I think it's all the work of  3 the B.C. wildlife fishery and wildlife, whatever they  4 call it.  5 Q   Okay.  This resolution that we're looking at --  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   -- did you -- did you read it in 1975?  8 A  Well, I never read anything like this in 1975, but I  9 think we went down to have a meeting with them and I  10 am saying we went down twice to meet with them and  11 still they couldn't come up with any settlement.  12 Q   Do you know who prepared this resolution?  13 A   I just don't know who prepare it, but it's all  14 prepared by the chief to meet with them and they ask  15 all the chiefs from the Nass River to come down here.  16 Q   Okay.  This document, it has your name and a large  17 number of other hereditary chiefs' names on it, did  18 you direct someone in your Tribal Council to prepare  19 this document?  20 A   I don't know who wrote these things on the papers, but  21 it was our decision it would be written because we've  22 had meetings, so many meetings, and this is the result  23 of the meetings and we called the Nishga people to a  24 meeting also.  25 Q   And did you ask that this document be sent to the  26 Nishga people?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   And you sent this document to D.I.A.?  2 9 A   I don't know.  3 0 Q   You don't know?  31 A   No.  32 Q   You just directed them to send it to the Nishga?  33 A   I know I was down there to have a meeting with them  34 but I don't know who wrote in this.  35 Q   Do you recall that there was a meeting of the -- with  36 the Nishga in 1983 about this overlap?  37 A   Pardon?  38 Q   Do you recall that there was a meeting at Gitwangak in  39 1983 about the overlap with the Nishga?  40 A   I don't know.  We had a few meeting at Gitwangak too,  41 but with a lot of different things that we have to go  42 to Gitwangak about the meeting.  43 Q   And do you remember there being a meeting in Canyon  44 City?  45 A   Yes.  We have a meeting in Canyon City.  46 Q   That was with the Nishga?  47 A   Yes. 6590  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Ms. Koenigsberg  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MS.  THE  MR.  Q   That was over the overlap?  A   They ask us to go over there and meet with them, but  what they come out of that meeting is nothing coming  out of it.  Q   Okay.  This matter of this overlap is not resolved  yet, is that correct?  A   I think it's still -- they haven't said any more about  it and I haven't heard any more what they have to say.  Q   Okay.  So you haven't heard that it's resolved yet?  A   No.  KOENIGSBERG:   I wonder if this document could now be marked  as an exhibit proper.  COURT:  Mr. Rush?  RUSH:  The witness says his name is on it.  He doesn't know  who prepared it.  THE COURT:  Well, he said this was a decision of the chiefs at a  meeting.  MR. RUSH:  Yes.  THE COURT:  Prepared by the chiefs as their decision after a  meeting.  MS. KOENIGSBERG:  And that they caused it to be prepared.  MR. RUSH:  Well, I am not sure that this is the force of his  evidence.  I am not sure about he caused it, Miss Koenigsberg.  I don't recall that.  But I remember he said that this  was prepared by the chiefs and it was their decision.  You say he didn't say that?  It was -- my note was "this is our decision to write  it down."  Now, what was it that was their decision to  write down was what I didn't understand it to be this.  Well, I think, Mr. Rush, that the evidence takes it  far enough to be marked as an exhibit subject to the  infirmities of the evidence when one has a chance to  look at it at his leisure.  I think it may now be  marked as an exhibit.  Any reason why we shouldn't  keep the same number?  KOENIGSBERG:  116.  COURT:  Yes.  KOENIGSBERG:  Those are all my questions, thank you.  Thank  you, Mr. Muldoe.  Those are all my questions.  Mr. Rush, do you want the document to be  straightened out before you re-examine or do you want  to re-examine first?  MR. RUSH:  I am happy to start.  THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  I do have to adjourn at 3  o'clock.  Would you rather we do it now before you  start or would you want the five minutes?  THE COURT  MR. RUSH  THE COURT  MS.  THE  MS.  THE COURT 6591  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  Well, I will start.  Yes.  Thank you.  1  MR. RUSH:  2  THE COURT  3  4  RE-EXAMIN.  5  Q  6  7  A  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  13  Q  14  A  15  Q  16  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  Q  23  A  24  Q  25  26  A  27  Q  28  A  29  Q  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  Q  35  36  A  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47  VTION BY MR. RUSH:  Mr. Muldoe, I have some questions to ask you about  that document.  Yes.  Before today have you ever seen it before?  No.  I never seen it before and besides, there is no  date on it where -- I mean there is a date on it, but  it doesn't say where it's written.  It's only a thing  that I see in here.  It's been received by B. Hartley.  Okay.  You see the date April 3, 1975 on there?  Yes.  I'd like you to think back to April 3, 1975.  Do you  recall ever seeing a document like that in April of  1975?  I never seen one like this before.  And I think your evidence was that you don't know who  wrote this?  No.  Or who typed it?  No.  You were asked some questions about the people who  were adopted into the house of Gitludahl?  Yes.  Do you remember those questions?  Yes.  One of the questions was about Gordon Johnson?  Yes.  And Gordon Johnson has been adopted into the house of  Gitludahl?  Yes.  As Gitludahl, do you accept him as a member of the  house?  Well, Gordon Johnson was adopted into the house of  Gitludahl before I take the name of Gitludahl.  Yes.  And now that you have the name, do you accept  him as a member of the house?  Yeah, I accept him as a member of the house.  You were asked some questions about Chris Harris and  about Fritz Harris and about their hereditary chiefs'  names?  Yes.  And I thought there was some confusion about this.  Chris Harris I think you have told us held of the name  of Luus? 6592  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  Q  3  4  A  5  Q  6  A  7  8  Q  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  Q  13  14  15  A  16  17  Q  18  A  19  Q  20  A  21  MR. RUSH:  22  THE COURT  23  24  THE TRANS  25  26  MR. RUSH:  27  Q  28  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  Q  33  A  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  44  45  A  46  Q  47  Yes.  Now, Fritz Harris, what relationship is Fritz Harris  to Chris?  His father.  And what is Fritz Harris' hereditary chief's name?  Well just recently before -- after Abel Tait died, he  used the name of Luus.  Fritz?  Chris.  No.  Oh.  Oh.  This is what I want to -- I am just asking you about  Fritz Harris now.  Do you remember his hereditary  chief's name?  I just can't remember.  I got so many names I don't  remember.  All right.  That's fine.  Ax wii lims neexhl.  What is it?  Ax wii lims neexhl.  Could you spell that, please?  :  Are you happy with the spelling?  I think Mr.  Sterritt has a suggestion.  IATOR:  We'll try this.  A-x underlined space w-i-1  space 1-i-m-s space n-e-e-x underlined h-l.  Thank you.  Before your marriage to Lottie, her name was Lottie  Harris?  Yes.  And what relationship was she to Chris?  Brother.  Chris' brother.  And what relationship was she to Jeff Harris Sr.?  Also his brother.  And Fritz was their father?  Fritz was their father, yes.  You talked of your son Earl Muldoe?  Yes.  What is Earl's occupation?  What does Earl do?  He is a master carver.  And he is also a goldsmith and  silver.  I would like to show Mr. Muldoe some photographs.  It's in the skinny, red book.  Number one.  Mr.  Muldoe, Exhibit 51-51 is a photograph, you say, of the  church?  Yes.  At Kispiox.  And that you told us was the United  Church, is that correct? 6593  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1 A Yes.  2 Q Who built that church?  3 A It's built by the people in the Village of Kispiox.  4 Q Did you have anything to do with the building of that  5 church?  6 A   I supplied -- I supplied all the lumber what was built  7 on that, all the rough lumber, I supply all the lumber  8 that was built on that, including the floor, and I got  9 the flooring from Vancouver.  And we did -- the people  10 of Kispiox have to do the work on it and they hire a  11 portable planer to size any lumber that was used in  12 there, because we are using the shiplap for the  13 sheeting outside and the inside.  Then we have to buy  14 the -- the only thing they buy was the siding -- the  15 outside sheeting, but I supply all that lumber in  16 there.  And I even supply all the work of my truck, my  17 loader.  I was hauling gravel for that place and I was  18 donating all this work and I donate all this lumber.  19 I wasn't charging anything for it.  2 0          Q   Thank you.  21 A  And also hauling the gravel to using my truck and they  22 using my cat as well to load it.  23 MR. RUSH:   Thank you.  I note it's 3 o'clock.  24 THE COURT:  All right.  We will adjourn then.  25  2 6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED PURSUANT TO AFTERNOON BREAK)  27  28  29 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  30 a true and accurate transcript of the  31 proceedings herein to the best of my  32 skill and ability.  33  34  35  36  37 Laara Yardley, Official Reporter,  38 United Reporting Service Ltd.  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 6594  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 3:15)  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  REGISTRAR: Order in court.  COURT: Thank you.  Mr. Rush?  RUSH:  Q   Thank you.  I'm now directing your attention to tab 3  of the photograph book marked Exhibit 515(3), and you  identified in the background, Mr. Muldoe, the school  at the village of Kispiox; do you see it there?  A   Yes.  RUSH:   Who is the —  COURT:  I think that's Exhibit 517, Mr. Rush.  RUSH:  No, My Lord, I think we changed our numbering system.  COURT:  Did we really?  REGISTRAR: The book was marked 515.  RUSH:  And then we numbered them by tab supplement.  COURT:  I see.  So this is number what?  RUSH:  515 sub 3, or brackets 3.  COURT:  Thank you.  RUSH:  Q   Who's the administrator at the village of Kispiox  school?  A   The administrator on that school is Wii Elaast.  Q   Is that Jimmy Angus?  A   Jimmy Angus junior.  Q   Junior.  And who is on the school-board?  A  Art Wilson is.  Q   Is he Wii Mugulasxw?  A  Wii Mugulasxw, and all the others, but I don't  remember who was on that.  Q   Are they people from the village of Kispiox?  A   They all the people from the Kispiox and the  co-ordinator is Thelma Blackwater.  She lives in  Kispiox.  Q   Is she a Gitksan person?  A   Yes.  Q   Is Gitksan taught at the school?  A   Yes.  Q   You identified the Sportsman's Lodge --  A   Yes.  Q   -- in a photograph that was put to you by Mr.  Mackenzie and you told us that it was about one mile  south of 17 Mile Bridge and that it was south of Ankya  Ge'en?  A   Yes.  Q   And which side of the road is the Sportsman's Lodge on  as you drive up north? 6595  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1 A   If you drive up north it would be on the right-hand  2 side as you're going up north.  3 Q   Okay.  Now, whose territory is it there?  4 A   It's Ma'uus' territory.  5 Q   Okay.  Now, I made a note that you indicated that it  6 was -- to a question of Mr. Mackenzie's that it was  7 Wa'a, W-a-'-a?  8 A   I think it's right joined with Wa'a.  9 Q   Okay.  But you say it's on Ma'uus --  10 A   It's just a little piece in there.  11 Q   Okay.  It's on Ma'uus' you said?  12 A  Ma'uus.  13 Q   Now, you indicated to Mr. Mackenzie that a road, a  14 logging road called the Mitten Main Road --  15 A   Yes.  16 Q   -- was built partly through your territory,  17 Gitludahl's territory?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   Did you ever send a letter to the Hazelton Forest  20 Service --  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   -- opposing the building of that road?  23 A   Yes.  24 Q   Now, you told Mr. Mackenzie that you had a sawmill  25 across the river from Kispiox and that sawmill was on  26 Ma'uus' territory?  27 A   Yes.  28 Q   And you told Mr. Mackenzie also that you did not seek  29 Ma'uus' permission to have the sawmill there?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   My question is, were members of Ma'uus' house working  32 with you at that sawmill?  33 A   Yes.  Henry Brown was there and Jacob Morrison was  34 holding the name of Ma'uus and they were hauling logs  35 at the mill then.  36 Q   Was there anyone from Ma'uus' house who opposed your  37 having the sawmill or your logging on the Ma'uus  38 territory?  39 A   No.  40 Q   Now, you told us as well, Mr. Muldoe, that you cut  41 cord wood on Delgamuukw's territory?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And this territory was at Saa Ge'en, S-a-a G-e-'-e-n.  44 Now, was anyone from Delgamuukw's house working with  45 you when you cut the cord wood?  46 A  Well, all my boys was working in there and some other  47 people were working there also. 6596  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  Q  7  A  8  Q  9  10  A  11  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  Q  17  18  A  19  Q  20  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  34  A  35  MR. RUSH:  36  37  38  39  40  THE COURT  41  MR. RUSH:  42  Q  43  A  44  45  Q  46  A  47  Q  Okay.  At the time you were cutting the cord wood was  your wife Lottie --  Yes.  -- a member of Delgamuukw's house?  Yes.  Now, was Albert Tait Delgamuukw at that time?  Yes, he was Delgamuukw at that time.  Okay.  Was there any relationship between Lottie, your  wife, and Delgamuukw?  Well, actually the way they had it is supposed to be a  stepsister like,  but she's a member of the  Delgamuukw.  Okay.  Did anyone from Delgamuukw's house oppose your  cutting cord wood on Delgamuukw's territory?  No.  You also indicated that you logged and had a sawmill  on Kliiyemlaxhaa's territory at 19 Mile?  Yes.  Do you recall if any members of Kliiyemlaxhaa's house  were working with you?  Yes, there's some members was working with me there,  but I just can't recall their name because they coming  and going right along, and some of them are cutting  poles and some of them, like some of the  Kliiyemlaxhaa's -- Sexsmith, I forgot what his name  is, I think it's George Sexsmith, he was cutting poles  in there.  But he's passed on now.  Did -- you also indicated that you were logging on Wii  Elaast's, part of Wii Elaast's territory?  Yes.  Did anyone from the house of Kliiyemlaxhaa or from the  house of Wii Elaast oppose your logging on those two  territories?  No.  I'd like to show you Exhibit 544, tab 19 of the  black volume.  This is the sustenance permit of  December the 18th, 1979, which you've identified.  Mr.  Muldoe, did you ever have a permit like this prior to  December the 18th, 1979?  :  What's the exhibit number, please?  Exhibit 544.  Yes, I did apply for the permit and that's the only  one permit I got from that.  That's the only one you had?  That's the only one I had.  You indicated that you trapped with your son Ken 6597  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1 Muldoe, who now holds the name of Delgamuukw, on his  2 trap line.  Did you trap with him on the territory of  3 Delgamuukw?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Do you remember when you last did that?  6 A   It's in '66 if I remember.  7 Q   The which again?  8 A   Sixty-six I think.  9 Q   Sixty-six.  To your knowledge does Ken continue to go  10 to that territory to trap?  11 A   Yes.  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  I object to that evidence.  That's hearsay  13 evidence, My Lord.  14 THE COURT:  Well, it might be or it might not be hearsay.  15 Without more I can't really rule on that.  16 MR. RUSH:  Mr. Muldoe, yesterday you were asked some questions  17 in an examination for discovery and you were asked  18 questions about -- that appeared on page 63 of that  19 discovery at question 501 and 502.  And the questions  20 that you were asked -- oh, fine.  21 THE COURT:  4 99 to 501.  22 MR. RUSH:  Yes, that's right, my error.  Let me correct that, it  23 was question 499 to 501.  In the examination for  24 discovery these questions were asked of you and you  25 were asked these again and you confirmed them  26 yesterday in your testimony.  And I'm going to ask in  27 particular 500.  You were asked:  28  29 "500 Q   What happens when they trespass?"  30  31 You answered:  32  33 "    A   Take them up to the law."  34 501 Q   All right.  35 A   Don't take anything in our own hands.  If  36 anyone sets a trap on my territory all I got  37 to do is go to the game warden, he picks up  38 the trap and gives it to me whoever owns the  39 territory."  40  41 Now, you were asked those and you said yes, --  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   -- that those were the answers you gave.  And then  44 yesterday you said in answer to whether or not you had  45 been asked those, you said the answers were true, but  46 it could be a little different.  Now, I wanted to ask  47 you what you meant when you said it could be a little 659?  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1 different?  2 A  Well, you see, some of the persons, they don't all  3 have the same temper.  When Victor Mowatt caught that  4 Marty Allen's son on the territory, if he was mad  5 enough he could have taken him and beat him up and  6 leave him there on the territory.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  All that evidence about Marty Allen's son and  8 Victor Mowatt is hearsay, My Lord.  9 MR. RUSH:  10 Q   Well, what do you mean by that example that you're  11 just talking about?  12 A  Well, they could beat him up, give him a licking or  13 something like that, and just leave it right in there.  14 THE COURT:  What you're saying is that some people will act  15 different from others aren't you?  16 THE WITNESS:   Yes.  17 MR. RUSH:  18 Q   And what about yourself if you caught a trespasser?  19 A  Well, a lot of the time you can just send them off the  20 territory.  If it's the second time he gets in there,  21 you can have to put him up to the court or something  22 like that.  23 Q   Have you sent people off the territory where you've  24 been trapping or hunting?  25 A   Yes, I did send a person off -- off our territory at  26 Deep Canoe there, but the person, whose name is  27 Jonathon Brown, he was trapping there.  His father has  28 the right to trap there, but after his father passed  29 on they have no more rights to trap there but Jonathon  30 keep on trapping there.  Finally Abel Tait asked me,  31 he say, "It's no use keeping him on."  He say "You  32 better write a note and ask him to leave the place."  33 So I just make a note and put it at his camp.  34 That's -- when he was find that note I guess he just  35 pick up his trap and leave.  He didn't say any more  36 about it.  37 Q   Now, you indicated I think that in 1973 your sons  38 began to hunt and trap and repair the roads at  39 Gwinageese?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Now, was Albert Tait -- was he still living at that  42 time?  43 A   Yes.  44 MR. RUSH:   Prior to 1973, had Albert Tait, to your knowledge,  45 trapped at Gwinageese?  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, My Lord, I'll object to that insofar as it  47 consists of evidence relating to matters not within 6599  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  the personal knowledge of the witness and when he was  present.  MR. RUSH:  Well, I don't know that we know that yet.  MR. MACKENZIE:  No, I agree, My Lord.  THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Rush, didn't you cover all this in chief?  MR. RUSH:  Well, I don't think so, My Lord, at least —  THE COURT:  Seems to me you got into -- you showed me  photographs of Mr. Kenny Muldoe and the witness at  Gwinageese.  It seems to me this whole area was  embarked upon in chief and should you be allowed to  revisit it?  MR. RUSH:  I don't think I'm revisiting it, My Lord, because  the -- as I understand the evidence, the suggestion  was that there was nobody trapping there between I  think it was the early 40's and '73.  THE COURT:  That's what the witness said.  MR. RUSH:  That's right.  And my question to the witness is  whether or not a previous Delgamuukw was there in that  period.  THE COURT:  You want to give the witness a chance to reconsider  the answer to the question we've just discussed.  I'm  not going to stop him from doing that.  MR. RUSH:  Q   Mr. Muldoe, from your personal knowledge do you know  whether or not between 1940 and 1973 did Albert Tait,  the former Delgamuukw, did he trap at Gwinageese?  A   I think that they trapped out there sometime in the  last part of the 40's somewhere.  Q   All right.  Thank you.  Now, you agreed with Mr.  Mackenzie that you travelled presumably by car up the  road to Cullon Creek and went with your son Ken Muldoe  to trap in his territory?  A   Yes.  Q   Is that right?  A   Yes.  Q   Were you ever present when Ken cut trail in his  territory?  A   But just about every year when he goes in they have to  cut trail.  Whenever it snows all the little bushes go  across the trail.  You have to keep it open in order  to get through there.  Q   Okay.  Can you say how much trail is cut or was cut?  A   I believe approximately about five or seven miles,  something like that.  MR. MACKENZIE:  I'm sorry, My Lord, this was gone into in some  detail in direct, a lot of evidence of cutting trails,  but now I think the witness is estimating the length 6600  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1 of trails cut.  This was gone over in detail.  2 MR. RUSH:  A specific question was asked of the witness  3 regarding Mr. Muldoe.  The only way he could get there  4 was -- to his territory was by vehicle, and I agree  5 that the questions were asked of this witness  6 regarding his activity on his territories and my  7 question is a responsive one to Mr. Mackenzie's  8 direction at Mr. Kenneth Muldoe, and it's not a  9 question that I covered in my examination as it did  10 not pertain to this witness.  So I'm responding in  11 short to a question that was put to this witness as to  12 how a trapper in the form of a son gets to his  13 territory.  14 THE COURT:  Well, I think that you should be allowed to proceed,  15 Mr. Rush.  I must say, as I've said so often before, I  16 find re-examination to be usually quite unuseful, but  17 something may arise.  I'll allow you to answer the  18 question.  There is a slight difference in the  19 question.  20 MR. RUSH:  Thank you, My Lord.  I wonder if we could please,  21 Madam Registrar, place the blue book, tab 21, before  22 the witness.  It's Exhibit 550.  23 Showing you Exhibit 550, Mr. Muldoe, this is the  24 application that -- the signature on which you've  25 identified as being George Muldoe in relation to a  26 trap line.  I'm directing your attention to the names  27 of the people that are below the signature in the box  28 under "Registration on behalf of a group".  It  29 indicates the names in addition to George Muldoe as  30 "Albert Tait, Lloyd Muldoe, Earl Muldoe, Sampson  31 Muldoe, Ken Muldoe, Ray Mowatt, Albert Mowatt, Lottie  32 Muldoe, and Sadie Mowatt".  33 Can you tell me what house they are members of?  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  I think Your Lordship asked that question.  35 THE COURT:  I have a note here.  It says "all in the house of  36 Delgamuukw".  37 MR. RUSH:  Well, there is one that — My Lord, that I'm covering  38 similar ground.  We can pass beyond that one.  39 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  4 0 MR. RUSH:  41 Q   Now, Mr. Muldoe, another question.  You were asked  42 about Ralph Michell and it was -- you were shown a map  43 which indicated that Mr. Ralph Michell had a trap line  44 at Taft Creek, and you said in your evidence yesterday  45 that he gave it up and I just wondered what you meant  46 by that?  47 A  Well, some of the -- some of the people they claim 6601  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1 they own the place, but actually -- actually Allan  2 Brown was the -- supposed to be the one that owned the  3 place.  That's David Gunanoot's stepson.  Then when  4 Allan dies I believe David pass that onto AI -- I mean  5 to Ralph.  6 Q   That's David Gunanoot passed it to Ralph did he?  7 A   Yes.  8 Q   All right. And when you said Ralph gave it up, what  9 did you mean?  10 A  Well, some other people that figured they didn't have  11 rights to go in there, but for some reason Allan and  12 David Gunanoot and Esther Gunanoot they probably spent  13 some money in the feast or something like that, but  14 that's the reason why they got that place, but the  15 other people that never was been up there, never been  16 involved in there, they start talking about this  17 place, about Ralph, and Ralph didn't like the idea of  18 they talking about it so much like that so he asked me  19 if it's okay with him -- with me if he can give it  20 back.  I told him it's up to him and what he wants to  21 do with it.  22 Q   Give it back to whom?  23 A   Give it back to the Lax Seel people that wanted it,  24 Jessie Sterritt and -- Jessie Sterritt and one of the  25 Wilsons.  I forgot the --  26 Q   All right.  Next I'd like you to look at tab 11 of the  27 blue book, it's the document book we've marked as  28 Exhibit 555, which is the map.  I just want to show  29 you this map, Mr. Muldoe.  Before yesterday had you  30 ever seen that map before?  31 A   No.  32 Q   Now, Mr. Muldoe, on another area, you were asked  33 questions about the territory of Wiigyet, Waiget and  34 Wii seeks?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And you were asked about their houses?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   My question to you is, does Antgulilbix have any  39 rights to the territory of Wii seeks, Wiigyet or  40 Waiget?  41 A   No.  42 Q   Do other houses in the fireweed clan have any rights  43 to the territory of Wiigyet, Wii seeks or Waiget?  44 A   No, they -- they don't have any rights in there unless  45 they called in there or they have decide they want  46 their own territory, unless they ask permission if  47 they want to go in there. 6602  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  A  Q  A  THE COURT  RUSH:  Q  A  THE COURT  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  THE COURT  Now, you also said, this is regarding Amagyet, you  were asked some questions about Amagyet.  You  indicated that Amagyet was at Date Creek, I think in  your evidence yesterday, and you've also said in your  territorial affidavit that Kliiyemlaxhaa owns McCully,  the McCully Creek territory?  Yes.  Can you tell us what's the relationship between  Amagyet and Kliiyemlaxhaa?  Well, the former Amagyet and Kliiyemlaxhaa, they're  pretty close together and they could be former --  those names just -- Kliiyemlaxhaa could be -- former  Kliiyemlaxhaa could be -- he could go with the former  Amagyet, but Amagyet he had his territory in that  little piece going up towards a place they call Guup  sa.  But they're still -- I believe still Amagyet  can -- they're pretty close together with  Kliiyemlaxhaa and Wiigyet -- not Wiigyet, sorry --  :  You mean the territories are close or that they're  close friends or both?  When you say that they're close together, what do you  mean?  What do you mean when you say they're close?  They're both wolf tribe.  And then in the feast they  work together, but if Kliiyemlaxhaa call Amagyet to go  out then they can go in there.  :  There was a name of a place that I don't know if  madam reporter got it.  Yes, there was a name that you gave of a -- you said a  small Amagyet territory?  Yes.  And I'm told that it's said Guup sa?  Yeah.  It's just on the north side of Date Creek and  it goes north-westerly from Date Creek.  :  Sorry?  STERRITT  RUSH:  Q  1432.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  This afternoon or this morning I think you indicated  that it was Abel Tait who adopted Lottie into the  house of Delgamuukw?  Yes.  Is that right?  Yes.  Was it Abel?  Well, it's Abel  that's Lottie's uncle.  Right.  But who adopted Lottie into Delgamuukwl 6603  P. Muldoe (for Plaintiffs)  Re-exam by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  MR.  14  15  THE  16  17  THE  18  THE  19  20  THE  21  THE  22  THE  23  THE  24  THE  25  26  THE  27  28  THE  29  30  THE  31  32  MR.  33  THE  34  THE  35  THE  36  THE  37  38  THE  39  40  41  42  MR.  43  44  45  THE  46  THE  47  A   It's some of the members of the Delgamuukw adopted  Lottie into Delgamuukw's house.  Q   My -- I was wondering if you meant to say Albert Tait?  A  Well, the former -- the former Delgamuukw, not Albert  Tait.  Q   Okay.  Fern Stevens was adopted into Gitludahl's  house?  A   Yes.  Q   And at the time she was adopted did she have children?  A   Yes, she have children.  Q   Were those children adopted into the house with her?  A   No.  RUSH:   That's all my questions.  I've completed my  questions, Mr. Muldoe, thank you very much.  COURT:  Mr. Muldoe, I just have one question I want to ask  you.  Your son Ken, Delgamuukw?  WITNESS:   Yes.  COURT:  Is he a full-time trapper or does he have some other  occupation?  WITNESS:   He's a commercial fisherman and mechanic.  COURT:  And your son Earl is a carver?  WITNESS:   Yes, he's a master carver.  COURT:  And Lloyd?  WITNESS:   Lloyd he do mostly carpenter, bricklayer,  chimney-layer, a little finishing, anything.  COURT:  Do you have other sons?  Do you have other sons  besides the three that I've mentioned?  WITNESS:   Well, there's some other ones, but they doing  something else.  COURT:  Fine.  They haven't been mentioned I don't think in  the evidence.  RUSH:  George.  COURT:  George.  What does George do?  WITNESS:   George works for the chief councillor.  COURT:  I'm sorry?  WITNESS:   George Muldoe, he works with us.  He's a chief  councillor at the village.  COURT:  Chief councillor at the village.  All right.  Thank  you, Mr. Muldoe.  That's all. Thank you.  You're free  to go if you wish or you can stay there as long as you  want.  All right.  RUSH:  Mr. Muldoe, your evidence is completed now.  You  can -- you're welcome to leave the witness stand if  you wish.  WITNESS:  Go flying.  COURT:  All right.  What about documents, Mr. Mackenzie, can  you assist us in that regard? 6604  Proceedings  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord.  This may take us over four  2 o'clock, My Lord.  3 THE COURT:  Oh, that's all right, if it's convenient to madam  4 registrar and madam reporter.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, My Lord.  6 THE COURT:  I'm sure they have nothing more exciting to do.  I  7 don't think you have to stay, Miss Howard.  You're  8 welcome to stay if you wish.  Thank you for your help.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, My Lord, I should start with Volume 1, the  10 black binder, the large black binder.  Tab 1 has been  11 marked as an exhibit, tab 2 has not been marked and  12 should be removed.  13 THE COURT:  Yes.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  And tab 3, certain of these interrogatories have  15 been marked, the affidavit has been marked, question  16 24 has been marked, 59 (c) and schedule A and the map  17 which is in the plastic pocket has been marked.  Tab  18 4, the affidavit has been marked, question 24 and  19 interrogatory 59 (c).  Those are the only ones that  20 have been marked.  That's Exhibit 492.  Tab 5, the  21 affidavit -- or I beg your pardon, the affidavit was  22 already marked.  I don't know whether I put it in.  23 Yes, I did.  That's Exhibit 418.  2 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  And question 24 was marked as Exhibit 491.  2 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  And question 59 (c) is Exhibit 418 and schedule  28 A is Exhibit 491.  29 THE COURT:  The question, interrogatory 107, hasn't been marked  30 has it?  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  Has not been.  And the map was marked.  There  32 may be two marks there.  33 THE COURT:  Yes.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  The maps are marked Exhibit 418 and A and B.  35 THE COURT:  Yes.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  Now, My Lord, I'd like to just clarify that.  37 There may be some confusion on which of the maps is  3 8 which.  39 THE REGISTRAR: The small one is A.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, that's map 1 of 2 is A, and the larger is  41 map 2 of 2 and that's B.  Very good.  42 THE COURT:  The large one is what.  Oh, yes.  43 MR. MACKENZIE: I think Your Lordship has marked that.  44 THE COURT: The larger one is 418 B I think.  45 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's correct, My Lord.  4 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  One moment.  And the small one is  47 B. 6605  Proceedings  1 THE REGISTRAR: The small one is A.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  The small one is A, that's correct.  3 THE COURT:  418.  4 MR. MACKENZIE:  A, that's correct.  5 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Thank you.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  Tab 6.  Tab 6 is out.  7 THE REGISTRAR: A and B?  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  A and B.  9 THE COURT:  Tab 7's in.  10 THE REGISTRAR: Yes.  11 MR. MACKENZIE:  Tab 7 is in.  12 THE COURT:  Eight is in.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  Tab 8, My Lord, I have a certified copy of both  14 items at tab 8.  Exhibit 501 is the deed.  Now, that's  15 marked as an exhibit proper, My Lord, probably there's  16 no need to put the certified copy in.  17 THE COURT:  No.  18 MR. RUSH:  I don't require it.  19 THE COURT:  All right.  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  And Exhibit 502 is marked for identification and  21 I have the certified copy to hand to Your Lordship.  22 THE COURT:  All right.  502.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  Sorry, to madam registrar.  24 THE COURT:  502 can be an exhibit then rather than one for  25 identification.  26 THE REGISTRAR: Did you want that marked?  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  I think Your Lordship wishes to have the  28 certified copy marked as the exhibit proper?  2 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  What number is that?  30 THE REGISTRAR: That's 502.  31 MR. MACKENZIE:  Does Your Lordship have that?  That's the crown  32 grant, Charles Sterritt.  33 THE COURT:  Yes.  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  It was marked on May 20th, My Lord.  35 THE COURT:  May 20th.  502.  All right.  It's no longer for  36 identification.  Thank you.  37 MR. MACKENZIE:  Tab 9, well, tab 9 we have extracts marked and  38 those have been marked for identification and I have  39 the document that my friend was concerned about.  40 THE COURT:  What was marked in tab 9?  Page 1, My Lord.  Page 1, My Lord.  The indenture.  Page 2 and 3 are marked for ID  41 THE REGISTRAR  42 MR. MACKENZIE  43 THE REGISTRAR  44 509.  45 THE COURT:  What number are they?  46 THE REGISTRAR: 509.  47 THE COURT:  Thank you.  And are you seeking to substitute 6606  Proceedings  1 well, there's no need to substitute the certified copy  2 for the one that was marked 509 is there?  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  My Lord, they're all marked 509 for  4 identification because of the problem my friend saw  5 with page 65 missing from the lease, so I'm handing  6 Your Lordship that page 65 which I've marked.  Perhaps  7 Your Lordship could put that in at that tab and I'll  8 hand a copy to my friend as well.  That would be  9 page -- following the numbering in the tab, the upper  10 left-hand corner, would be 2 A, My Lord, upper  11 right-hand corner.  12 THE COURT:  I haven't found it yet.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  At tab 9, My Lord.  14 THE COURT:  I'm in tab 9 but I can't find page 65.  15 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, My Lord, I'm referring to the numbers at  16 the top right-hand corner of the page now.  17 THE COURT:  Yes.  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  And at page 1 and page 2, My Lord, as Your  19 Lordship will see, there's a file number as well,  20 which is 63 in the centre.  That's what my friend was  21 speaking about.  22 THE COURT:  All right.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  So, My Lord, page 65 I've handed to Your  24 Lordship.  It's the file number page 65, and in this  25 tab it's page 2A, so it goes in as --  2 6 THE COURT:  All right.  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  I think that's the concern my friend had.  That  28 page was missing, My Lord.  2 9 THE COURT:  All right.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  I would submit that those excerpts could be  31 marked as an exhibit proper now.  32 THE COURT:  Yes.  33 MR. MACKENZIE:  And other documents removed.  34 THE COURT:  509 becomes a regular exhibit.  35 MR. MACKENZIE:  Tab 10, My Lord, again this was marked as — in  36 tab 9 we'll have to take out the documents.  They have  37 not been marked my friend points out.  Madam Registrar  38 is listing them.  39 THE COURT:  Pages?  40 THE REGISTRAR:  5 and 6 in the right-hand corner, and numbers  41 10, 11 and 12.  42 THE COURT: 10, 11 and 12?  43 THE REGISTRAR: Yes, in the right-hand corner.  44 THE COURT:  All right.  I'll take them out.  45 THE REGISTRAR: Ten is marked.  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  Ten is marked for identification.  I'm handing  47 up a certified copy. 6607  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT:  What has been marked for identification?  MACKENZIE:  Tab 10, My Lord.  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  It's marked.  This is the — this is the crown  grant to Elsie Morrison.  COURT:  Yes.  MACKENZIE:  Marked as Exhibit 508 for identification.  COURT:  Yes.  All right.  MACKENZIE:  And I'm handing up a copy of the documents  relating to that crown grant, a certified copy from  the registrar of titles.  I have to tell my friend  that those documents contain the crown grant plus  there's some -- there is some mistakes there in the --  or errors in the grant that haven't apparently been  corrected, but my friend will see the grant there.  The reason I'm putting these in is they're all  certified together.  Well, it's just the Land Act, the three pages that  you're putting in, is that it?  MACKENZIE: Yes.  COURT:  All right.  Shall I take the one out, take out the  one that's here now?  MACKENZIE:  Well, no, My Lord, that's your copy.  My Lord,  I'm handing the certified copy to the registrar to be  marked as an exhibit proper.  COURT:  All right.  All right.  That will be Exhibit 508  then.  MACKENZIE:  That's  COURT:  Yes, 508.  MACKENZIE:  Tab 11  MR. RUSH  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  508, My Lord.  is -- I think has been marked  COURT:  The other one comes out.  MACKENZIE:  Eleven is fine, Exhibit 507  Exhibit 506 -- sorry, My Lord.  COURT:  Yes?  Twelve is fine,  MACKENZIE:  Madam Registrar has the tab.  Fourteen?  REGISTRAR: Thirteen is Exhibit 510.  MACKENZIE:  Fourteen is fine.  REGISTRAR: 511.  MACKENZIE:  Fifteen is —  REGISTRAR: Marked 514.  MACKENZIE:  Yes.  Handing up the —  COURT:  514 will become an ordinary exhibit.  MACKENZIE:  I'll have to leave that, My Lord, I seem to have  misplaced the certified copy of that.  I think that's  an exhibit for identification.  Tab 15 -- correction,  or yes, tab 15.  THE COURT:  515. 660?  Proceedings  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  Fourteen, 514 for identification.  2 THE COURT:  514 was for identification, yes.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord.  4 THE COURT:  We'll leave that one for now then.  5 MR. MACKENZIE:  Tab 16.  6 THE REGISTRAR: Not marked.  7 THE COURT:  Sixteen comes out?  8 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord, I'm just handing in the certified  9 copy of 16 and I would request the certified copy be  10 marked as an exhibit.  11 THE REGISTRAR: In tab 16?  12 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  13 THE REGISTRAR:  It wasn't even marked.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's right.  I'm filing the certified copy as  15 an exhibit.  16 THE COURT:  All right.  Well, it wasn't marked before though was  17 it?  18 MR. MACKENZIE:  That's right, My Lord.  19 THE REGISTRAR: So what number do you want it to be?  20 THE COURT:  515 A I suppose.  21 THE REGISTRAR: You can't do that, My Lord.  22 THE COURT:  I can't?  23 THE REGISTRAR: We've got 515 as a red book of photos.  24 THE COURT:  All right.  514 A.  25 THE REGISTRAR: 514 A.  2 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  27  28 (EXHIBIT 514A: Land Act, crown grant of John Johnson  29 dated September 12th, 1913)  30  31 MR. RUSH:  I don't have all of the paper that's attached to this  32 certification.  I have two sheets, that's what I have,  33 and there are four here.  It's all certified.  Either  34 I want the other sheets or take them out of the  35 certification.  36 MR. MACKENZIE:  I'll give my friend — I have a copy of this  37 certified copy.  It looks like they have just -- the  38 reason -- what's happened here is that to get the  39 entire copy, since it's such a long page, they've had  40 to use two sheets, but it's the same page.  I have a  41 copy.  I'll give that to my friend.  And for the  42 record, that's a pre-emption, the crown grant for John  43 Johnson, September 12, 1913, Exhibit 514 A, certified  44 copy.  45 Tab 17 is marked as Exhibit 513 for  46 identification.  4 7 THE COURT:  Yes. 6609  Proceedings  1 MR. MACKENZIE:  And I'm handing up the certified copy.  2 THE COURT:  All right.  That will be an ordinary exhibit then.  3 MR. MACKENZIE:  Handing up the certified copy of Exhibit 513.  4 Tab 18 has not been marked.  Tab 19 has been marked  5 Exhibit 544.  And I think the rest of the tabs are  6 marked, My Lord, but I may be -- I have to qualify  7 that statement.  Tab 20 has been marked as --  8 THE COURT:  Well, I've got them all marked.  9 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, then, My Lord, we should — tab 24 is a  10 copy of Exhibit 26.  11 THE COURT:  Well, that's all right.  That's no problem.  That's  12 already in.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  And tab 25, and there's an extract at tab 25  14 that's marked, so the documents apart from the  15 extracts I guess my friend will --  16 THE COURT:  Well, page 1 was not discussed, was it?  17 MR. MACKENZIE:  No, My Lord. In summary the —  18 THE COURT:  Page 2 is Exhibit 503.  19 MR. MACKENZIE:  Page 2 is Exhibit 503, that's correct, My Lord.  20 THE COURT:  Page 3 is 504.  21 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord.  22 THE COURT:  Four, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 —  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  Pages 8 to 19 are Exhibit 505, My Lord.  24 THE COURT:  Eight to 19?  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord.  26 THE COURT:  Exhibit 505?  27 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord — Oh, reserve.  We reserved  28 Exhibit 505, the number for that.  2 9 THE COURT:  All right.  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  I beg your pardon, My Lord.  31 THE COURT:  Eight to 19.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  So other than that, that's the — My Lord, I  33 have to rephrase that again.  If Your Lordship will  34 start at the back of the tab you'll see the last  35 document of the tab is not marked and then you come to  36 the page 19 and the pages before that to page 8 are  37 the ones that are marked and an exhibit is reserved  38 and that's the wood lot licence dated January 1, 1985.  39 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  40 MR. MACKENZIE:  So the other documents before that have to come  41 out.  42 THE COURT:  That's —  43 THE REGISTRAR: Nineteen are the signatures, so you don't want  44 that in there.  45 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, which page did you say come out?  46 MR. MACKENZIE:  The final page in the — the final page in the  47 tab. 11 MR. MACKENZIE  12 THE REGISTRAR  13 MR. MACKENZIE  6610  Proceedings  1 THE COURT:  The plan?  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  The plan, yes.  3 THE COURT:  Yes.  4 THE REGISTRAR: From 4 to 10 in the corner.  5 THE COURT:  And 4 to 10.  6 MR. MACKENZIE:  In the upper right-hand corner, My Lord.  7 THE COURT:  Well, I've got page 4 marked as Exhibit 505  8 reserved.  9 THE REGISTRAR: No.  10 THE COURT:  Is that not right?  Sorry, My Lord.  It's 0000.  There's a couple of numbering systems.  14 THE COURT:  I see.  Of course, so the Exhibit 505 starts at 08  15 then, does it?  16 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, yes, it does, My Lord.  It's the new  17 numbering system at the bottom right-hand corner  18 without the other numbering system.  19 THE COURT:  Eight to —  20 MR. MACKENZIE:  19.  21 THE COURT:  — nineteen.  All right.  The first set then come  22 out?  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, that's correct, My Lord.  24 THE COURT:  All right.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  And as well as — that's — so that would be  26 pages 4 to 10 plus the -- a letter dated August 22,  27 1985.  2 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  I'm taking them out.  29 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  30 THE COURT:  All right.  And the last tab is the map, Exhibit  31 498.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord.  33 THE COURT:  Now, Mr. Mackenzie, I don't think I should keep  34 people waiting while we go through this relatively  35 mechanical operation.  I think we'll have to do it  36 again sometime.  I think you should start Monday  37 morning and complete this task.  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes.  39 THE COURT:  I don't -- we have something else to talk about now  40 so I think we should get on with that.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  I agree, My Lord.  42 THE COURT:  I'll give you back these other documents and we'll  43 carry with on with this problem some other time.  44 Madam Registrar, would you give this back to Mr.  45 Mackenzie?  4 6 What about the view gentlemen, lady and gentlemen?  47 MR. RUSH:  Well, I have made a letter proposal to my friends 6611  Discussion re:  1 including an itinerary, participants, costing, and  2 that type of thing.  I gave it to them this morning  3 when I was able to finalize this.  I'm happy to pass  4 this proposal up to Your Lordship if my friends agree  5 to it.  If not, then they might want to consider it.  6 My concern here is that if we have some level of  7 agreement I can get onto reserving what needs to be  8 reserved.  9 THE COURT:  Yes.  I'm getting worried about whether equipment's  10 going to be available.  Can you get helicopters in a  11 week's notice?  12 MR. RUSH:  We're going to try.  13 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  And I agree with Mr. Rush, My Lord, there's a  15 threshold question that is will Mr. Rush go ahead and  16 reserve the helicopter, that is -- and then there are  17 other questions further down the line, for example,  18 more detailed questions, where do we go once we have a  19 helicopter; secondly, what's the seating arrangements,  20 assuming we're going in a helicopter.  And perhaps I  21 could just respond to those general threshold  22 questions before and put the detailed questions, about  23 who sits where and where we go, off --  2 4 THE COURT:  Yes.  25 MR. MACKENZIE:  — until later.  26 So the first point I wish to make, My Lord, is we  27 can't respond to the detailed itinerary right now, and  28 it seems to me, My Lord, in my submission, that Your  29 Lordship would be assisted by a general response to  30 the concept --  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  32 MR. MACKENZIE:  — so that a helicopter could be reserved.  So  33 I'm going to respond on that general level, My Lord.  34 The first point is that this party, we cannot see  35 any utility in a view, so we oppose the idea of having  36 a view simply because --  37 THE COURT:  Haven't I gone beyond that?  38 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, My Lord, so if Your Lordship has gone  39 beyond that then we'll skip over that, so what I say  40 is subject to that opposition.  41 The next point is that another general question,  42 My Lord, is it's our firm position, as I indicated to  43 Your Lordship, that no parties should accompany Your  44 Lordship without counsel being present.  Now, that  45 doesn't affect the reservation of the helicopter.  It  46 simply means that if the practical problems mean that  47 we won't be able to get the helicopters, then that 6612  Discussion re: view  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  will have to be considered.  Your Lordship has said that you prefer the view  that a view of this sort is to be seen as a context  for the evidence.  My Lord, we submit it's  inappropriate, and even in that view of the procedure,  we oppose the suggestion that Your Lordship travel  with Indian plaintiffs, as Mr. Rush has suggested,  without counsel being present even in the helicopter.  We have no objection to Your Lordship being in the  helicopter with counsel or by yourself or with the  reporter.  THE COURT:  Well, is there any need for a reporter?  MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, My Lord, if Your Lordship is going to be  accompanied by Indian plaintiffs making comments about  territories and boundaries, in our submission that has  evidentiary aspects to it and should require a  reporter, as well the word speller and interpreter.  THE COURT:  Are you sure all this is necessary, Mr. Mackenzie?  It seems to me this is getting terribly, terribly  legalistic.  I have to be guided by what you say, but  I've been on lots of views and I've never heard these  kind of submissions or it's never been this much of a  problem in the past.  MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, My Lord, my submission is this is a  completely different case.  Just to name the  boundaries and the mountains is the giving of evidence  in this case, in our submission, and we have no  objection to Your Lordship taking the view with  counsel being present, but when we get out of the  helicopter and have commentary on who owns the  boundaries and what their names are, then that in the  context of this case, in my submission, My Lord, moves  close to the giving of evidence.  Your Lordship may  wish to rule on that and to limit the types of  comments that will be made to Your Lordship during  this view.  THE COURT:  Well, I haven't the slightest objection of having  the reporters present, I'm sure they're all anxious to  go, but it seems to me that if the provincial crown  takes that position, it should pay for the reporter.  MR. RUSH:  Third helicopter, My Lord.  THE COURT:  It would probably require a third helicopter, would  it not?  MR. MACKENZIE: Well, My Lord, assuming if Your Lordship wants  to -- if Your Lordship wishes to consider that topic  briefly, speaking about helicopters, I understand my  friend suggests the pilot and four passengers will go 6613  Discussion re: view  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE COURT  MR. RUSH  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  on these helicopters.  So, My Lord, it would be  possible to have two helicopters, for example, on the  northern flight.  If, Your Lordship, one chief, a  Gitksan chief, and counsel for Canada and the province  accompanied Your Lordship in the helicopter, and then  in the other helicopter Mr. Grant, another Indian  chief, if necessary, as my friend has suggested, a  reporter and interpreter could be present.  Those  would be the two helicopters.  My friends are  suggesting the two Indian chiefs accompany both  flights north and south.  MACKENZIE:  My friends have suggested that representatives  of the parties rather than counsel accompany Your  Lordship.  Well, I don't think you need to trouble yourself  with that, Mr. Mackenzie.  If any party says that  counsel should be present, then I think that's the way  that it has to be and I would not rule against any  submission by any party that counsel should be  present.  If that's your wish, then that's the way I  think it will have to be.  That -- if that's so, it  seems to me that one helicopter has to be used up by  the pilot and myself and three counsel.  Yes, My Lord, and that's a possibility, or  alternatively, subject to my friend's comments, Your  Lordship, an Indian plaintiff, and two defendant's  counsel, but we're getting into more the practical  details of seating, My Lord.  Does the presence of counsel cause a serious problem  to you, Mr. Rush?  No, no.  Well, yes, I think -- as a general concept,  I think counsel are pointless on this effort, but --  I wouldn't extend that argument too far.  Or you might extend it further.  But I've resigned  myself to there having to be counsel present given the  submissions that were made earlier and I can see the  merit of that position.  Yes.  So I think there have to be three counsel there.  My  position was only in relation to the necessity for the  presence of representatives of the parties.  It never  occurred to me that Canada and the province wouldn't  want to have somebody from Canada and the province go  on this --  Yes, adventure.  -- view and this adventure, and now I take it from  what my friend says that that's not so, that in fact  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH: 6614  Discussion re: view  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  THE  COURT  22  MR.  RUSH:  23  24  25  26  27  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  RUSH:  30  THE  COURT  31  MR.  RUSH:  32  33  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  RUSH:  36  THE  COURT  37  MR.  RUSH:  38  39  THE  COURT  40  MR.  RUSH:  41  42  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  RUSH:  45  THE  COURT  46  MR.  RUSH:  47  THE  COURT  counsel will represent Canada and the province as the  case may be respectively, and so that means that there  will only be counsel from the parties there, but  whatever the case is I think there are going to be  required representatives of the plaintiffs present and  that is necessary if the view is to mean anything  because, with all respect to counsel present,  including myself, we don't know the territory.  We  wouldn't know where we were going, and in my  respectful submission it requires two helicopters with  radio link and I don't see that as a problem.  I think  that's feasible.  I think financially it's feasible.  I think it's a question of who should accompany Your  Lordship and I think it's -- it would be inappropriate  in the circumstances of a case like this for you not  to have a plaintiff present who can assist in your  understanding about the evidence that's been heard.  Our proposal is basically to deal with places and  areas about which you've heard evidence, not about  something that's coming in the future.  :  Tell me, where do you propose we go, Mr. Rush?  Basically the flight proposal is from Smithers on the  first day north along along the boundary between the  Wet'suwet'en and the Babine people and flying north up  the boundary to Bear Lake, the area of Bear Lake,  which was considerably farther north, across the  Babine, My Lord.  :  Yes.  And then further north to the area of Bear Lake.  :  Yes.  And Bear Lake is, if you see the pink just below  that, My Lord, the pink spot on the -- even farther  below that --  :  Yes.  -- between the yellow and the pink --  :  Uh-huh.  -- spots on the right eastern side, that's the area  of Bear Lake.  :  Yes.  Bear Lake, yes.  And from there the proposal is that we fly eastward  to -- sorry, westward to the -- along the Sustut to an  area which is known as Slamgeesh.  :  I'm going to hear about that am I?  Yes, you are.  :  And where is Slamgeesh?  It's about in the area of Babine Hill.  :  Yes. 6615  Discussion re: view  1  MR.  RUSH:  2  3  4  THE  COURT  5  MR.  RUSH:  6  7  8  THE  COURT  9  MR.  RUSH:  10  11  12  THE  COURT  13  MR.  RUSH:  14  15  16  17  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  RUSH:  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  THE  COURT  35  MR.  RUSH:  36  37  38  39  40  THE  COURT  41  42  MR.  RUSH:  43  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  RUSH:  46  THE  COURT  47  MR.  RUSH:  And then the proposal would be to fly along the  Skeena southward down to Old Kuldo and then to New  Kuldo.  :  Yes.  And then from New Kuldo the proposal would be to fly  basically over the mountain to a place that you've  heard Dam Simaloo and down the river to Kisgagas.  :  Yes.  And from Kisgagas along the -- along the Babine in  part and then from the Babine down the Skeena to  Kispiox.  : Yes.  And then from Kispiox back to Smithers, and that  would be the first day.  The second day would be a swing eastward along the  Bulkley River to its junction with the Morice, and  then from the Morice to the area of Buck Flats --  :  Yes.  -- about which testimony has been given.  And then  from there to Goosely lake, and Goosley Lake then to  Francois Lake and then eastbound to Pack Lake in the  territory of Knedebeas.  And then from there it  would -- you'd fly north into the territory of  Gisdaywa to Owen Lake and then to Nadina Mountain and  then further eastbound from Nadina to -- I'm sorry,  I'm getting my east and west mixed up.  Westbound to  Nanika, and then from Nanika north to the area of Herd  Dome about which you've heard evidence, and then from  there proceeding again northbound towards Mcdonell  Lake, the territory of Wah tah k'eght, and then back  to Smithers.  And we've included a proposal that a  portion of the view be part of a land travel to  Kitwanga and to Wilson Creek.  :  You mean on the third day?  Yes.  And that would be a less arduous day.  I'm told  that basically three hours of flying time in a  helicopter is fairly trying.  I've never done it  myself, but those who have tell me that it's a long  day so we're proposing --  :  It doesn't give much time for standing on the ground  and looking at does it?  No, it doesn't, and that is of some concern.  In the  first day it's about half and half.  :  Yes.  On the second day there's less flying time.  :  Yes.  We think about two hours, 2.5 hours, although there 6616  Discussion re: view  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  THE COURT  MR.  MR. RUSH  was a minimum helicopter cost of three hours, but the  second day I think is a little more time on the ground  and of course Wilson Creek and Kitwanga are farther  west of Hazelton and there would -- arriving in  Kitwanga we'd basically travel along the north side of  the Skeena about ten miles to Wilson Creek and the  smokehouse there.  Yes.  All right.  Do you Mr. Mackenzie or Miss Koenigsberg  have any comments on that itinerary or additions to  it?  MACKENZIE:  Well, My Lord, before my friend speaks, the  first impression is that this proposal, as Mr. Rush  said, is a full one.  It arguably leaves out  significant areas of the land claim area which we  might consider to be appropriate for such a trip, such  as the northern area, that's the Taltan and the Nishga  overlap, and the western area of the Kitwancool and  Nishga overlap, and the south-eastern area of the  Carrier Sekani overlap.  But I cannot respond in  detail with suggestions of itinerary right now, My  Lord.  This may be a question that Your Lordship will  wish to consider after having made the threshold  decision to go ahead and reserve the helicopter and  proceed with the trip subject to the itinerary.  Well, I have already concluded, as I think I  expressed, that if a party, in this case it happens to  be the plaintiff, but if it were any of the parties  said we should have a view, then I would be disposed  to order that we do so.  I think we're past that  decision.  My difficulty of what you're proposing, Mr.  Rush, if I may list a pun, is that it's too rushed.  I've had several of these views by helicopter.  I've  not found a three hour day to be particularly  overwhelming and I've been on one when we've been out  for eight and nine hours, and I was younger then, but  it wasn't all that arduous.  And it does seem to me  that the schedule you propose practically gives you a  minute and a half on the ground every place you wanted  to stop and no more.  Yes, I concede that point and I would, given that,  consider a longer ground time. The other aspect of  this, of course, is that I drafted this with an eye  towards Your Lordship's view that my learned friends  may well want to add to this itinerary because they  may have in their own mind that they would like you to  see other parts.  So given that, there will have to be  THE COURT 6617  Discussion re: view  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  MACKENZIE  RUSH  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE  MR.  THE  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  some flexibility if they decide that the itinerary  should do this or that, but I felt that what we had to  do was to get something in our hands.  What does the helicopter cost per hour?  I think it's $570 per hour.  Yes.  One hour.  Now, there is one consideration, My Lord, and that is  another consideration that it might be that the  helicopter will have to return to a fueling point,  given the distances that are being covered.  Yes.  So that is something we have to build into a schedule  as well.  That could well be done while we're on the  ground at some point.  While we're having lunch.  While we're having lunch, yes.  Well, my thought is that you should -- you should  book the helicopters for up to five hours, and I hope  you don't have to commit yourself to five hours, but I  don't think we should go all this way and be that  hurried, and you can hardly -- the blade can hardly  stop whirling before you have to get off again on the  schedule that you're describing.  That's the question  I have, and I think it should be slowed down even if  it costs more.  I know it's easy to say when it's  somebody else's money, but I don't think there's much  profit in that sort of an exercise at such great  haste, so I'd like you to explore that possibility.  I  think Mr. Mackenzie -- we haven't heard from Miss  Koenigsberg -- if they want to add to that itinerary  by taking in the three areas that he mentioned, I  think we should try and do so, but I think you have to  book the aircraft.  And what day were you thinking of?  Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday of the week off, June  6, 7 and 8.  Yes.  You said Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday?  Yes.  Oh, I'm sorry, yes, the third day for the land  travel.  The land travel, yes, I think that will mean, My  Lord, in practical terms you'd have to be there on the  Sunday evening and you probably won't be able to get  away until the Wednesday evening, if there's a flight  connection.  Yes, there's probably no flight leaving on  Wednesday.  All right.  I think that's as far as we 661?  Discussion re: view  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  COURT  RUSH:  can take it.  My reaction is that, unless counsel can  agree, I would fly in one aircraft with three counsel  and others would have to be in a separate aircraft.  If counsel can agree, then it may be possible for  parts of the trip to have counsel split up, and if  there are things that can only be seen from the air,  it seems to me that one counsel for the defendants,  one counsel for the plaintiffs, and a person that has  to point things out is something that might be  considered.  Well, I'll leave to that to counsel to  see if they can agree on such a thing.  How is it proposed that we land travel, Mr. Rush?  I could rent a vehicle.  We wouldn't need a 4-wheel  drive, would we?  No, we would not, and I don't think the rental of a  vehicle is in issue here.  I think that some of the  plaintiffs, I'll make this concession, have vehicles  and trucks.  :  Well, Her Majesty usually wants me to travel in my  own vehicle, but that's not necessary.  I would have  one anyway because I want to do some exploring in the  evening anyway.  One aspect of this proposal that would benefit me at  the moment would be if my friends could say whether or  not they intend to have someone other -- an  instructing party present or someone that they choose  to be as part of their party.  :  Yes.  Or just counsel because that would tell me whether  there would be other seats for any of the helicopters.  :  Yes.  The other aspect is that if you'd find it  advantageous to have a look at the proposal that I  have set out, it's pretty bare bones, and I don't  think it is too weighted one way or the other.  :  Well, there's still at large the question of whether  we need a reporter.  Well, I'm in agreement with Your Lordship on this.  I  think that the nature of the view ought to be to  assist you in understanding evidence and I don't think  that there's any value at all in trying to recreate  the courtroom on a view.  I think if we're going to do  that, My Lord, I think it would make a very different  kind of activity and it would, I think, quite likely  mean different kinds of stops at different places.  The itinerary that I set up was based on what I  thought was the general orientation of all of our 6619  Discussion re:  1 discussion towards having a view, that was to  2 understand evidence that's been given.  3 THE COURT:  You don't think we need to robe?  4 MR. RUSH:  Pardon me?  5 THE COURT:  You don't think we need to wear our robes?  6 MR. RUSH:  I — no, I don't think so.  7 MS. KOENIGSBERG: I've never been in a helicopter with my robe.  8 MR. RUSH:  I have a suggestion for a backpack, what you might  9 pack, but --  10 THE COURT:  I suppose the ground would be wet would it?  11 MR. RUSH:  It would be in certain parts.  It would be, yes.  We  12 have some suggestions about the kind of clothing that  13 would be needed.  14 MR. MACKENZIE:  I think there will still be snow at the higher  15 elevations.  16 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Well, I don't think we can pursue  17 it any further.  I'd be glad to take it up with  18 counsel again on Monday when you've had a chance to  19 consider these matters. Any objection if that proposed  20 itinerary is left with me Mr. Mackenzie and Miss  21 Koenigsberg?  22 MS. KOENIGSBERG: I have no objection.  23 MR. MACKENZIE:  No.  24 THE COURT:  All right.  Leave it with me then, Mr. Rush.  And  25 I'm sorry to keep you, madam registrar, and madam  26 reporter.  We'll adjourn until ten o'clock on Monday  27 morning.  28 THE REGISTRAR: Monday morning.  Order in court.  29 THE COURT:  Was there something else?  30 MR. KOENIGSBERG:  Mr. Mackenzie was sure I wanted to say  31 something, but it's my usual expression.  32 THE COURT:  Thank you.  33 THE REGISTRAR: Court will adjourn until Monday, May 30th.  34  35 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 4:40)  36  37 I hereby certify the foregoing to  38 be a true and accurate transcript  39 of the proceedings herein to the  40 best of my skill and ability.  41  42  43 Tanita S. French  44 Official Reporter  45  46  47


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