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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-12-05, 1] British Columbia. Supreme Court Dec 5, 1988

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 10033  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Smithers, B.C.  December 5th, 1988  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Rush.  MR. RUSH:  Yes, my lord.  The next witness that was to have been  scheduled for this morning was Mabel Critch.  And my  last discussion with her was Tuesday of last week, and  she was to have gone to Vancouver for a medical  examination on Thursday, and she was to have been in  Vancouver on Thursday and Friday, and I have not heard  from her since that time, although I've made several  attempts to reach her through friends and family.  She  does not have a home phone number and I can't reach  her directly at her home.  So she was -- I was  expecting her to be here at 9:30 this morning.  She is  not here.  There could be a number of reasons why she  isn't, and I haven't been able to track them down.  And I have advised my friends that my expectation is  that she'll be here this morning, and I can only ask  your lordship to stand down to allow me to make --  continue to make the efforts to try and find her.  THE COURT:  Or until you get someone else.  MR. RUSH:  That would be difficult.  That would be difficult.  I  couldn't do that at this point.  THE COURT:  All right.  MR. RUSH:  So if your lordship will allow us to stand down and I  will advise you in due course.  THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  I'll be in my chambers until  12:30.  RUSH:  I hope to be able to advise you.  COURT:  I hope to hear you before then.  Thank you.  MR.  THE  THE  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Rush, have you found Mabel Critch?  MR. RUSH:  Yes, I have.  She is in Vancouver at the Centennial  Hotel.  Apparently what happened, my lord, is that she  had appointments scheduled for Thursday and Friday and  I wasn't -- she didn't inform me what the nature of  her illness is, but those appointments were extended  to this morning.  And she is either at VGH or at a  medical centre in Vancouver taking treatment,  specialist treatment there.  And what happened,  unfortunately, was that she phoned the Friendship 10034  Proceedings  1 Centre and medical centre in Hazelton and advised them  2 that she was unable to come back, and for one reason  3 or another we didn't get the message from the  4 Friendship Centre even in Smithers.  So I did reach  5 her this morning and talked to her and she expressed  6 her apologies, and I think it was a matter really  7 beyond her control.  8 Where we stand at the moment is we tried among  9 ourselves to juggle some of the other witnesses and it  10 looks as though we just can't do it.  The counsel and  11 the interpreters and so on, it's not going to be  12 feasible to bring the cast of characters together for  13 another witness.  I can advise you of this, it looks  14 like my friend's examination of Mrs. Critch will  15 probably only be a half a day so with a bit of  16 juggling we think she could be rescheduled for the end  17 of the week, and we're presently attempting to -- to  18 reschedule her for the end of the week and continue  19 with the present schedule for the end of the week.  20 And I've advised my friends of some difficulty we have  21 in reaching one of the other people, and if that falls  22 through then Mrs. Critch will be comfortably examined  23 on that day.  If not it may be that we'll ask your  24 lordship to sit an extra half hour or hour in the  25 morning.  26 THE COURT:  Well, I'm sure, subject to madam reporter's  27 agreement, that can be arranged, or even in the  2 8 evening.  29 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  I think given that it's a Friday and our  30 last -- the last day of the week on that day it may be  31 that we'll not want to extend too far into the  32 evening.  33 THE COURT:  No.  Would she not be back until Friday?  Perhaps we  34 can do her in the evening this week.  35 MR. RUSH:  Yes, that's certainly feasible.  36 THE COURT:  I'll leave it to counsel to organize, and I think we  37 should make every effort to take her evidence if at  38 all possible.  3 9 MR. RUSH:  Yes.  40 THE COURT:  And I'll certainly make myself available, and our  41 reporters are very accommodating in that regard.  All  42 right.  Then there is nothing more to do today.  43 MR. MACAULAY:  An evening this week might even be better.  I  44 hadn't thought of that.  45 THE COURT:  I'd be very happy to accommodate counsel in that  46 regard.  47 MR. RUSH:  Maybe I'll talk with my friends about that. 10035  Proceedings  1 THE COURT:  All right.  We're off until tomorrow morning.  2 Should we start early or is ten o'clock fine?  3 MR. RUSH:  Ten o'clock.  4 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Have a pleasant afternoon.  You're  5 excused, madam reporter.  6 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  7  8       (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO DECEMBER 6, 1988 AT 10:00 a.m.)  9  10 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  11 a true and accurate transcript of the  12 proceedings herein to the best of my  13 skill and ability.  14  15  16    17 Peri McHale, Official Reporter  18 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 10046  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Smithers, B.C.  December 6th, 1988.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)  MR. MACKENZIE:  My lord, we have two matters; a scheduling  matter and an objection that's quite an important  objection that has a significant effect on the  progress of the cross-examination of the witness Roy  Morris.  MR. GRANT:  Yes.  I can deal with the scheduling matter.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. GRANT:  You recall that we estimated last night Mr.  Mackenzie would commence at ten to nine with the Roy  Morris cross-examination continuation and at ten after  ten I asked Mr. Mackenzie how long he anticipated  being.  He said another half hour.  THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  You started at quarter to nine last  night?  MR. GRANT:  No.  This morning.  THE COURT:  This morning.  MR. GRANT:  As of last night he had been cross-examined for five  and a quarter hours yesterday, and now there's been an  additional hour and 20 minutes, so he has been  cross-examined for about a day and a half by Mr.  Mackenzie.  Miss Koenigsberg maintains that her  estimate is accurate of 20 minutes.  Re-direct will  probably be ten to 15 at the outside.  My lord, I'm  concerned because this delay with him is unravelling  many things.  The -- we had intended Mr. Jeff  Harris -- as I indicated I need a half hour further  meeting with him this morning before he could  commence, and Mr. Harris has come down here -- he's an  elder.  He has come down here and is waiting to go.  The other witness that was going to be before your  lordship was Mrs. Joseph, Mrs. Mary Joseph, who needs  translation, and I've just been informed now that Ms.  Mandell was waiting for Mr. Holland to be freed up  from this, where we are right now, he's the translator  upstairs, in order to spend an hour with him and with  Mrs. Joseph because she needs full translation.  Where  we are standing right now is that -- these are the two  in court witnesses -- is that we proceed with Mrs.  Joseph, but as soon as Mr. Holland is free, can be  freed up to meet with Ms. Mandell and we proceed with  Mrs. Joseph this afternoon at two.  If that's the case  the federal defendants who are cross-examining her 10047  Proceedings  1 principally indicate they're not certain of their  2 estimates.  They certainly wouldn't guarantee even if  3 she started at 11:30 she would be finished by 3:30 or  4 four.  I'm concerned then that Mr. Jeff Harris, Mr.  5 Jeff Harris Sr., by that time of the day -- he's not a  6 witness who can sit late.  I hoped we would be able to  7 do that.  With respect to the out of court witnesses  8 it was scheduled for Solomon Jack to go this morning.  9 Solomon Jack has been here since ten o'clock and is  10 ready to go immediately after my friends are finished  11 with Mr. Morris.  12 THE COURT:  Where does Mr. Morris live?  13 MR. GRANT:  Mr. Morris lives in Moricetown.  Mr. Jack lives in  14 Hazelton -- Gitanmaax and Mr. Harris lives in Kispiox.  15 Mr. Jack is here ready to go.  Then my friends had  16 indicated there was a proposed revision of schedule  17 prepared on November 17th, and I had anticipated and I  18 was under the impression until just this morning Miss  19 Koenigsberg indicated she had not received it until a  20 week ago Monday, November 28th, but there was no  21 concern reflected until this morning, that they're not  22 prepared to go with the other out of court witness Mr.  23 David Green this afternoon, so I alternatively  24 recommended that -- Mr. Green had originally been  25 scheduled for tomorrow morning.  The November 17th  26 revision was to put him on this afternoon, because the  27 lawyer who has prepped him and ready to go with him  28 has to leave tomorrow morning.  I alternatively  29 suggested that he go this evening out of court, and  30 apparently the federal defendants indicate they cannot  31 be ready to have him go this evening out of court.  32 I'm sure there is a difference between counsel on  33 this, but in certain regards there's only been one  34 objection taken that we can deal with this morning,  35 but in certain regards I say that Mr. Morris'  36 cross-examination has been -- has been going slower,  37 and I think much slower than -- I regret at this stage  38 that it hadn't been before your lordship, because I  39 think there has been a great deal of repetition,  40 repeating his answers from yesterday today, and things  41 like that.  I'm certain that my friend and I are not  42 ad idem on that point.  43 THE COURT:  Well, wouldn't the sense of prudent be to get back  44 on schedule?  Stand Mr. Roy Morris over until say 8:30  45 tomorrow morning when he's fresh in the day and finish  46 him tomorrow morning and get on with today's schedule  47 and sit late this afternoon if necessary to finish it. 10048  Proceedings  1  MR.  GRANT  2  3  4  THE  COURT  5  6  MR.  GRANT  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  10  THE  COURT  11  12  13  14  MR.  GRANT  15  16  17  18  THE  COURT  19  MR.  GRANT  20  21  22  THE  COURT  23  MR.  GRANT  24  25  THE  COURT  26  27  28  MR.  GRANT  29  THE  COURT  30  31  32  MR.  GRANT  33  THE  COURT  34  MR.  GRANT  35  36  37  MR.  MACKE  38  39  40  41  THE  COURT  42  MR.  MACKE  43  THE  COURT  44  MR.  MACKE  45  46  47  THE  COURT  Well, alternatively he could be done -- as far as  I'm concerned as counsel, he could be done -- also be  done at noon or once Mr. --  Well, I have no problem with what you do out of  court.  Or later this evening.  You said he couldn't sit late in the day.  Mr. Harris couldn't, Jeff Harris Sr. who I had  scheduled for this morning.  I don't care when you finish Mr. Morris; this  evening, noon today, this evening or tomorrow morning,  but it seems to me we have got to get back on  schedule.  That's my concern, my lord.  My friend now indicated  to me another problem.  Mr. Robert Jackson who is  scheduled for one day, tomorrow, my friend now  indicates to me he may take a day and a half with him.  Is that in court or out of court?  He's an in court witness.  If that's the case, my  lord, we are going to have serious problems by  Thursday again.  Then we better get at it.  Well, I agree.  We have been at it with Mr. Morris  since 8:30 this morning, so.  Yes.  Well, it seems to me that you ought to stand  Mr. Roy Morris down.  When you finish him is up to you  people.  Yes.  If you can't agree I'll tell you when to finish him.  I'm sure you'll agree whether it should be at  lunchtime today.  Could I just have a moment with Mr. Morris?  Yes.  He's not present.  I'll arrange for him to come down  and maybe we could deal with the objection in the  interim.  I agree there should be some --  ZIE:  My lord, I support your lordship's comments that  we stand down Mr. Morris and get back on schedule.  I  take the -- take the most extreme, if I can say that,  exception, if I can say that --  I don't want to hear about exceptions.  ZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  They're no help at all.  ZIE:  It's been a very difficult cross-examination.  Very emotional.  Mr. Grant and I have been engaged in  quite intense debates.  I don't think there is any point in this, Mr. 10049  Proceedings  1 Mackenzie.  2 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  I agree we should have been  3 before your lordship.  I'm not finished.  4 THE COURT:  We're past that.  If you want me to preside this  5 evening or tomorrow morning over the completion I'll  6 be glad to do so.  7 MR. MACKENZIE:  Thank you, my lord.  The estimate — I advised  8 Mr. Grant that my estimate for Mr. Morris'  9 cross-examination would be one and a half days, and I  10 wasn't aware that we were going to have the problems,  11 of course, that we have had.  12 THE COURT:  All right.  13 MR. MACKENZIE:  As far as Mr. Jackson is concerned perhaps we  14 should meet -- face that when we come to that, but, my  15 lord, we have advised Mr. Grant that one and a half  16 day estimate, we advised him as long ago as October  17 21, and he's had that --  18 THE COURT:  We may have to go into the evening.  19 MR. GRANT:  I would be recommending if that's the case, subject  20 to the witness' ability in terms of being tired, that  21 he go on.  That we have a long day tomorrow to get him  22 done and that way we don't jeopardize the schedule.  23 THE COURT:  Your client's here, I think.  24 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  In discussion with Mr. Morris I think tomorrow  25 morning at 8:30 given Mr. Mackenzie's estimate of half  26 an hour, I think it is, Ms. Koenigsberg's of 20 and  27 mine I think we need an hour to an hour and a quarter.  28 I think if we start 8:30 —  29 THE COURT:  Is 8:30 satisfactory?  30 MR. MACKENZIE:  Satisfactory for me.  31 THE COURT:  All right.  That being so, Mr. Morris is stood down.  32 Who do we start with now?  33 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  We need to deal with the objection.  34 MR. GRANT:  I think we should deal with the objection, because  35 it's a matter I think you should give some guidance  36 on.  37 THE COURT:  Whose objection is it?  38 MR. GRANT:  It's my objection, or Mr. Mackenzie's, and maybe I  39 can just set out the reasoning for it, because it's an  40 unusual objection.  41 MR. MACKENZIE:  Well, I'd like to explain the situation first,  42 my lord.  43 THE COURT:  All right.  You're — you're examining?  44 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  I'm going to see if I can  45 summarize this, my lord.  This is one of a long series  46 of problems.  Well, your lordship has said we don't  47 have to get into that now.  We should direct our minds 10050  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  to this objection.  In summary, my lord, I'm using a transcript of a  proceeding in family court at which Mr. Morris  testified in English for purposes of credibility.  I'm  using it for purposes of credibility in this  cross-examination.  I received -- I received a copy of  this transcript the week before we came up here.  I  found out that it existed, and the family court  hearing was in November 1987, and I ordered a  transcript.  I don't say that the contents of this --  I haven't been relying on the contents of this  transcript as really being relevant in the sense of  being a document that I'm proposing.  I'm using it to  cross-examine the witness, because it's my perception  that he's saying things in his cross-examination and  on his affidavit that are contrary to what he said  under oath in court in November 27, 1987.  I did not  list this document, this transcript in my list of  documents.  I say that it is not -- it was not in our  possession and control, and it's not something that's  relevant really to the issues, but it's being used  solely for credibility.  I did not disclose it to Mr.  Grant until I got back to Vancouver, had completed my  preparation for Roy Morris' cross-examination and then  telefaxed a letter to Mr. Grant Saturday night.  I say  now that I did not, despite your lordship's ruling,  and in view of your lordship's ruling, I did not need  to disclose this document to him, which I did, because  I was using it and was intending to use it for  purposes of credibility only.  Now, Mr. Grant didn't get my letter.  It was in  his office on Saturday evening and he apparently got  it yesterday, or learned about it yesterday.  That's  Monday afternoon.  And then he got quite angry at me  and made some comments, heated comments which were  exchanged on the record about that letter.  Then today  Mr. Grant is objecting to any questions or any use of  this transcript in cross-examination.  He's objecting  to me having the questions and answers read to the  witness and asking if the answers are true -- if the  questions were asked and if the answers were true.  And that's a fairly detailed summary, my lord, but  if necessary we can get into the actual -- the actual  passages in the transcript.  :  All right.  What is the base of the objection, Mr.  Grant?  :  Well, prejudice, my lord. 10051  Proceedings  1 THE COURT:  Well, all evidence is intended to be prejudicial.  2 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  All right.  I want to set out the summary of  3 events that occurred here that I say is the basis for  4 it.  5 Yesterday morning when we commenced my friends had  6 made a request for documents actually they had on the  7 discovery of Mr. Morris, which on November 11th it was  8 reiterated to me, a series of documents for different  9 witnesses out of interrogatories.  And yesterday  10 morning I informed my friend on the record that I  11 concurred that he is entitled to those documents, and  12 I apologize for the delay.  This was -- this was just  13 before the cross-examination.  At that time my friend  14 indicated -- referred me to a series of letters  15 referring to this request, and these documents have  16 now been delivered to my friend.  The witness got them  17 for this morning.  But these -- the last of the  18 letters he referred to was December 3rd of '88, and I  19 said I don't know what letter you're talking about,  20 and then I thought back that that would have been  21 Saturday.  My friend did not provide me with a copy of  22 that letter.  I thought that all the letter said was  23 we reiterate our request for these documents.  That's  24 what I understood yesterday morning.  At noon I  25 contacted my office and about 5:09 on Saturday night  26 this letter was faxed to my office.  I had it faxed to  27 me here.  And my friend wishes 11 things that he  28 wishes me to put to Mr. Morris and have him review,  29 ten of which I had access to or have, but the first  30 one on the list was this testimony of November 27th,  31 '87.  At that point when I saw the letter it was the  32 first time, and this was yesterday afternoon.  Mr.  33 Morris had been in cross-examination half a day.  34 There was absolutely no way I could review this  35 transcript with him, question him about it, or  36 anything else at that point.  I made my objection then  37 on the record that it was adverse to me, and things  38 like that, and then about ten minutes later Mr.  39 Mackenzie handed me a transcript.  I took the  40 transcript and I read it last night.  This document --  41 in the normal course, of course, there is no question  42 statements can be put to a witness.  I just disagree  43 with Mr. Mackenzie on one point.  The questions he's  44 put to the witness are questions where he's suggesting  45 a difference between what the witness is saying here  46 on his cross-examination and that evidence.  There has  47 been nothing put to him which contradicts the evidence 10052  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  THE COURT  MR. GRANT  in his affidavit, his territorial affidavit.  I'm not  saying my friend doesn't intend to do that, but he  certainly hasn't indicated that thus far.  He has put  other things to him.  Now, my lord, this is the reason for the  objection.  If there is any -- and then I requested --  before I objected I asked Mr. Mackenzie, well, when  did you hear of this, thinking he may have got it only  on Friday himself.  Then he advised me he received it  a couple of weeks ago.  I had requested him after your  direction by correspondence to provide us within five  days, as you had suggested, a listing of documents.  I  had requested that again late last week for witnesses  for this week.  My friend knew of this document.  Mr. Grant, aren't we -- aren't we exaggerating our  present difficulties?  At the moment Mr. Morris'  examination isn't going to continue until tomorrow  morning.  I can't review the document.  I didn't have --  How long is the transcript?  Pardon?  How long is the transcript?  Oh, no, no, my lord.  Maybe you misunderstand.  I  have read the transcript.  I have had a chance to read  it last night and I have read it.  I'm not saying I  haven't read it, because he gave it to me yesterday  afternoon and I read it last night.  The problem is  that I had no notice of the existence of this  transcript until Mr. Morris was under  cross-examination.  I have no right to discuss the  transcript with Mr. Morris.  That's the problem.  If  the document was listed by my friends, of course, I  wouldn't have that problem, or wouldn't have this  complaint.  I said to my friend today, Look, even if  it wasn't listed, you know, if you had advised me a  week ago or before he commenced his cross and either  provide me with the transcript or said it was  available then I would have had a chance to review it  with him.  What I am saying is that it is unfair, and  that there should be some control to put a document  that is unlisted, that has been in the hands of one  party for two weeks, and to hand it to the other  counsel just immediately before putting it to the  witness while the witness is under cross-examination  so that there's no right of the other counsel to  discuss that document with the witness.  That's simply  it.  And I'm saying, my lord, if there's any way to 10053  Proceedings  1 control that kind of disclosure that this is it.  And  2 that's the only -- if I had had any notice of this,  3 any kind of reasonable notice of this I would not have  4 made the objection, if I had any opportunity to put  5 this to Mr. Morris.  And yesterday morning before we  6 started my friend referred to this letter.  I told him  7 I didn't have it, and he didn't provide me with a copy  8 of the letter or transcript at that time, at which  9 point we could have stood down so I could look at this  10 transcript and discuss it with the witness.  11 THE COURT:  How long is the transcript?  12 MR. GRANT:  This is a portion of a transcript, and it  13 commences -- just a moment -- at page 76 and it goes  14 to page 97.  It's -- it's -- it says it's Volume 2.  15 He is one of many witnesses at this hearing.  This is  16 the only portion that was delivered to me, but this  17 is -- the evidence of this witness is directed in  18 cross-examination.  I'm not saying I haven't had a  19 chance to read it now.  I have.  The objection is I  20 can't put it to the witness or discuss it with Mr.  21 Morris.  22 THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Mackenzie, in view of the late notice  23 you've given your friend, which has to be taken into  24 account, along with the fact that he's been late with  25 some of his documents as well, and in view of the  26 misunderstanding, or lack of understanding, rather, on  27 Mr. Grant's part at the start of the examination about  28 the contents of the letter of December 3rd, would the  29 ends of justice not be met if the rule against  30 discussing the matter with the client during  31 cross-examination were relaxed so that Mr. Grant could  32 discuss this document with Mr. Morris between now and  33 tomorrow morning at 8:30?  34 MR. MACKENZIE:  Yes, my lord.  I have no objection to that.  35 THE COURT:  Ms. Koenigsberg?  36 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  My concern is one of not directly related to  37 this particular problem, but rather the expectations  38 that parties now may have as to what obligations are  39 in terms of providing documents to counsel for  40 purposes of cross-examination.  In my submission, when  41 a document is to be used solely for the purposes to  42 test credibility should that arise during  43 cross-examination there should be no obligation on  44 counsel to provide that to plaintiff's counsel in this  45 case.  46 THE COURT:  I think you're right on that, Ms. Koenigsberg.  47 While -- I'm sorry, you're not right on that.  Again, 10054  Proceedings  1 with respect, there's a judgment of Mr. Justice Gow  2 that is under appeal which --  3 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  So I might be right?  4 THE COURT:  You might be right and you might be wrong.  Where he  5 ruled that that sort of document had to be disclosed.  6 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  My lord, I don't know what the circumstances  7 are.  What concerns me here is that we are dealing  8 with documents which are in the knowledge and about  9 which are in the control of the plaintiffs.  Sometimes  10 we come across documents.  In this case the province  11 happened to come across this particular matter, but it  12 certainly was something within the knowledge of this  13 particular plaintiff, and --  14 THE COURT:  Well, I'm not sure that he should have anticipated  15 that something he said in -- was it a family court  16 hearing?  17 MR. GRANT:  Family court hearing about a year ago.  18 THE COURT:  Would necessarily be regarded as relevant to these  19 proceedings.  20 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I can tell your lordship, again we're down to  21 specifics, this is what makes it difficult if it's  22 going to create a precedent.  I have not -- unlike Mr.  23 Grant I have not read the entire transcript, but I  24 have read the parts put to this witness, and they are  25 answers relating specifically to the matters in issue  26 in this lawsuit, of course; territory, ownership of  27 traplines --  2 8 THE COURT:  Yes.  29 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  — Names, the kinds of things that we are here  30 testing.  31 THE COURT:  Yes.  32 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  And you don't know until —  33 THE COURT:  Well, Ms. Koenigsberg, Mr. Justice Gow's judgment,  34 and this part at least I agree with, is that that  35 document should be listed on a supplemental list of  36 documents as soon as they came into Mr. Mackenzie's  37 possession.  Under Mr. Justice Gow's decision it was  38 produceable.  Under the Court of Appeal decision,  39 which hasn't been -- hasn't been published yet, it may  40 be that he wouldn't have to disclose it, but he  41 certainly would have to list it.  42 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Would there be no obligation on the plaintiffs  43 to list that document?  4 4 THE COURT  4 5 MR. GRANT  4 6    THE COURT  I wouldn't think so.  This document wasn't in our possession.  Not if it wasn't their document.  Mr. Morris may not  47 have had it.  If Mr. Morris had a copy it would have 10055  Proceedings  1 to be listed.  If he didn't have a copy he doesn't  2 have to list everything that someone recorded him as  3 having said in the past.  But Mr. Mackenzie's industry  4 in collecting it is part of the adversarial advantages  5 and gains, but when he got it -- when he got it, in my  6 view, he would have to list it.  He wouldn't even have  7 to identify it except perhaps as a document of a  8 certain date for which he claimed privilege, and then  9 there would be an argument whether it had to be  10 produced or not.  We're past all that.  The document's  11 been -- has been delivered late to, or notice of it  12 was delivered late to Mr. Grant.  It's being used at  13 the examination.  Mr. Grant now has it.  We're past  14 all that, and it seems to me that the matter can be  15 resolved the way I've suggested.  16 As to the future, which is always a matter of  17 concern, I agree with you that it -- and it's a matter  18 that the law is not settled at the moment.  There  19 is -- there is a majority judgment waiting to be  20 delivered.  A dissenting judgment hasn't been prepared  21 yet, so far as I know, and Mr. Justice Gow's judgment  22 may be set aside, or it may not.  23 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  So I understand your lordship, so that we're  24 all clear, a document of this sort once it comes into  25 the hands of any party should be listed?  26 THE COURT:  Must be listed.  27 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  Even if its only purpose is to deal —  28 THE COURT:  To claim privilege.  29 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I appreciate that, because although I don't  30 happen to have any such documents to list I would  31 not --  32 THE COURT:  You're not aware of any.  33 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I'm not aware of any.  34 THE COURT:  But it seems to me the matter can be resolved the  35 way I've described and --  36 MR. GRANT:  That certainly would resolve the issue.  37 THE COURT:  You're excused, or the rule is for the purpose of  38 discussing this document you're free to discuss it  39 with Mr. Morris during the adjournment.  40 MR. GRANT:  My friend also raised yesterday, but I don't know if  41 he had similar transcripts, because he didn't refer to  42 them in his letter, but he referred to other court  43 hearings that Mr. Morris had given evidence in.  I  44 understand from what he's -- I'm operating on the  45 assumption that he doesn't have evidence in those  46 hearings.  He doesn't have documents, in other words,  47 that he would list, but I presume it would comply to 10056  Proceedings  1 that.  What I'm concerned about, my lord, is, of  2 course, in these kinds of timetables for preparation  3 of cross-examination it's quite unfeasible for us to  4 question each of our witnesses as to all of the  5 special hearings they gave evidence in.  That's the  6 difficulity we have.  7 THE COURT:  I wouldn't put the duty that high, Mr. Grant.  I  8 don't think that you or Mr. Morris were required to  9 remember and list documents of the type we are talking  10 about.  There may not have been a document.  If it  11 hadn't been previously transcribed it would be nothing  12 more than the reporter's notes, but once it came into  13 your friend's hands I think it was his obligation to  14 make a disclosure.  The reason being is that if you  15 don't identify it in some way, and one of the  16 arguments in the Court of Appeal is how far you have  17 to go to identify the document without losing your  18 adversarial advantage if it's a document that belongs  19 in counsel's brief, but if you don't list it in some  20 way when it's used at trial there's no way of finding  21 out whether it was even disclosed, so that a claim --  22 and a claim to privilege made so that the other side  23 can have the opportunity to challenge the claim to  24 privilege in advance.  And if we didn't have to list  25 these things in some way then you'd never know at  26 trial whether or not its existence had been disclosed.  27 All right.  Are we ready to --  28 MR. GRANT:  The only matter is Mr. Rush is dealing with Mr.  29 Jackson, and on the schedule that we have it -- Mr.  30 Jackson will have to be completed tomorrow, and we're  31 not opposed to extending the day, but if we don't  32 complete him tomorrow it's going to cause serious  33 problems for the witnesses for Thursday and Friday in  34 court and out of court.  35 THE COURT:  Well, I think we have to do everything we can to  36 stay on schedule.  I learned years ago from trial  37 administration that you don't gain any profit by  38 snowballing a list that has to keep moving.  You've  39 got to deal with the things when they're set to be  40 dealt with, but you don't keep putting other things  41 off.  I think we'll put Mr. Morris off now and we'll  42 get on with today's schedule and try and finish  43 today's work today, but whether we do or not we should  44 start tomorrow's work tomorrow.  45 MR. GRANT:  I had referred to the fact that I needed some time  46 with Mr. Harris, and given what you've suggested I  47 think we should probably go with what I had proposed 10057  Proceedings  1 yesterday, which would be Mr. Harris, Chief Luus.  And  2 I wonder -- well, I would be prepared to start him at  3 twelve o'clock.  4 THE COURT:  What do counsel say about that?  Twelve o'clock?  5 MS. KOENIGSBERG:  I don't think there is much we can say.  We're  6 off --  7 THE COURT:  We agreed to give him half an hour and he's taken an  8 hour.  Is there any advantage -- could we not start at  9 even quarter to twelve?  10 MR. GRANT:  Well, maybe what I can do is if my friends are going  11 to be in their offices I'd certainly make -- I'll make  12 every effort -- I'll meet with him and --  13 THE COURT:  Let's start at quarter to 12, or as soon thereafter  14 as counsel may be heard.  All right.  Thank you.  15 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  16  17 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS)  18  19 MR. GRANT:  Yes, my lord, the witness in the stand is Mr. Jeff  20 Harris.  He swore one of the affidavits which I have  21 in front of me.  22 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Has the witness been sworn?  23 MR. GRANT:  No, he has not been sworn before.  24 THE REGISTRAR:  Mr. Harris, could you please stand up and take  25 the Bible in your hand.  26  27 JEFF HARRIS, a witness called on  28 behalf of the Plaintiffs, having  29 first been duly sworn testified as  30 follows:  31  32 THE REGISTRAR:  Please tell the court your name.  33 A  My name is Jeff Harris.  34 THE REGISTRAR:  Thank you.  35 A   Sr..  36 THE COURT:  Sit down if you wish.  37 MR. GRANT:  Yes, my lord.  Mr. Harris will require full  38 translation.  And his affidavit is Exhibit 610, and  39 it's an affidavit that describes the Kuldo Creek area  40 of Ma'uus, the Gwiis Xsagan Gaxda territory of Ma'uus,  41 and the Lax Hla Gant territory of Wii Eelast.  42 THE COURT:  I don't think madam reporter can get those names  43 unless you have a number for them or there's a  44 spelling provided.  45 MR. GRANT:  I'm sorry.  They're in the affidavit, and I read  46 from the headings of Exhibit 610.  I'll provide a copy  47 to madam reporter, or I thought that Ms. Howard is 1005?  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  5 MR. GRANT  6 THE COURT  7 MR. GRANT  1 writing them down for her.  2 THE COURT:  Yes.  Do you have an extra set of the affidavits, or  3 at least one for madam reporter and one for me, if you  4 have one, but I can get by without it.  My copy is all marked up with notations on it.  I can get by without it.  Actually --  8 MR. MACAULAY:  It's worth taking the time to have copies made.  9 THE COURT:  Do you have one, madam registrar?  10 THE REGISTRAR:  I've got the original exhibit.  11 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  12 THE REGISTRAR:  I'll make you a copy during the next break.  13 THE COURT:  Yes, please.  All right.  And you're tendering the  14 witness for cross-examination?  15 MR. GRANT:  I'm tendering the witness for cross-examination as  16 directed by your order.  I proposed to Mr. Macaulay  17 and Ms. Sigurdson we proceed to one o'clock, subject  18 to how the witness is feeling, and take an hour for  19 lunch.  2 0 THE COURT:  All right.  21 MR. GRANT:  And I hoped that if we could do that, and with Mr.  22 Macaulay's usual brevity in cross-examination, we may  23 get to the next witness, Miss Mary Joseph, and have  24 her completed as well.  That's our objective.  25 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Macaulay.  26  27 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. MACAULAY:  28 Q   Your chief's name is Luus?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   And you are the head chief of your house?  31 A   Yes.  32 Q   And your house is part of the Kuldo wolf clan?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   Did your grandparents live at Kuldo?  35 A   Not from the time that I was born.  They used to just  36 go out there to hunt and trap.  37 Q   Did any of your grandparents live at Kuldo when they  38 were young?  39 A  My grandmother lived at the place they called Ghowil  40 Mihle.  And she also lived at Tselastw'm ganxwit.  41 That's Old Kuldo and New Kuldo.  42 MR. GRANT:  If madam interpreter could give those words to the  43 reporter.  44 THE COURT:  Well, the answer is that her — that the witness'  45 grandmother lived at Old Kuldo and New Kuldo.  Is that  46 not sufficient?  4 7 MR. GRANT:  Yes. 10059  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 MR. MACAULAY:  2 Q   Was there -- did Luus have a long house at Old Kuldo?  3 A   Yes, he had one there very long time ago.  4 Q   Have you ever seen that long house?  5 A   I did when I was small.  6 Q   And was there a totem pole near the long house, a Luus  7 totem pole near the long house?  8 A   There used to be one there, but they moved it to  9 Kispiox long time ago and now it has fallen over.  10 Q   Is it -- is that totem pole now lying on the ground at  11 Kispiox?  12 A   It was at Kuldo.  It fell over.  13 Q   Oh, was a new pole put up by Luus, one of your  14 predecessors, at Kispiox?  15 A   No.  16 Q   Did the members of the -- of your house move to  17 Kispiox to be closer to supplies such as flour and  18 sugar?  19 MR. GRANT:  Is that supplies of or —  20 MR. MACAULAY:  Such as I said.  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   Did any of your grandparents go fishing at the coast?  23 A   They did.  24 Q   Now, your father was Mr. Fritz Harris?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And he went fishing at the coast?  27 A   Yes.  2 8 Q   And he had a ranch on the Skeena River?  29 A   Yes.  Just about close to right across from Glen  3 0 Vowell.  31 Q   That was next to Margaret Lorring's property?  32 A   Yes.  That place is called Giis Kamaaw'n.  33 THE COURT:  Just a minute, please.  The spelling, please.  34 THE INTERPRETER:  G-I-I-S space K-A-M-A-A-W-N.  35 THE COURT:  K-A-M-A-A-W-N.  Thank you.  3 6 MR. MACAULAY:  37 Q   And that -- your father's ranch comprised 160 acres?  38 A   Yes.  39 Q   When you were born in 1917 he already had that ranch?  40 A   I wasn't born in 1917.  I was born in 1911.  41 Q   1911.  Well, when you were born, or when you first  42 remember, when you were two or three years old did he  43 already have the ranch?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   Did he raise cattle on the ranch?  4 6 A   No.  47 Q   Was the ranch for horses? 10060  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A   No, they didn't have horses.  2 Q   Did your father carry on a logging operation on the  3 ranch?  4 A   From the time I can remember after I was born they  5 grew a garden and berry bushes.  6 THE COURT:  Berry bushes?  7 A  M'hm.  8 MR. MACAULAY:  9 Q   How many acres were under cultivation when you first  10 remember the ranch?  11 A  Approximately ten acres.  12 Q   Was the produce from the ranch sold in Kispiox or at  13 Glen Vowell?  14 A   No.  It was for our own use.  15 Q   Your father trapped during the winter?  16 A   Yes.  17 Q   And he was a member of the House of Delgamuukw?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And your mother was a member of the House of Luus?  20 A   Yes.  21 Q   Your father's trapping area was in the vicinity of a  22 creek that's called Ironside Creek on the government  2 3 map?  24 A   It is not called Ironside.  25 Q   Is it called Grouse Creek?  26 A   The Gitksan people have their own name for it.  27 Q   Do you know any English name, map name for the creek  28 that was one of the physical features on your father's  29 trapline?  30 A   That creek is called Xsi wii luu wax.  31 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  Just a moment.  We'll have to have a  32 spelling, please.  33 THE INTERPRETER:  He's asking if you wanted to know what  34 Ironside was?  X-S-I space W-I-L space L-U-U space  35 W-A-X underline.  36 MR. GRANT:  What is the last, L-U-X?  37 THE COURT:  W-A-X.  38 MR. MACAULAY:  1456, my lord —  3 9 THE COURT:  Thank you.  40 MR. MACAULAY:  — On the plaintiff's list.  That shows as — the  41 translation appears to be Ironside Creek and Sides  42 Creek.  43 THE INTERPRETER:  He wants to know if you want to know why it's  44 called Ironside.  4 5 MR. MACAULAY:  I'd be glad to know, my lord.  46 THE COURT:  Oh, he's asking us.  He doesn't seem to know  47 himself.  Isn't that right, or does he know? 10061  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  THE  COURT  A  THE COURT  MR. GRANT:  I think he's asking if that's what the explanation  was .  A   It was in about -- around about 1912 or 1930 when the  white people put a wagon road into the territory and  they went as far as that creek, that is why they  called it Ironside.  THE COURT:  All right.  Ms. Howard —  One of the people that did the cooking in the area was  called George Ironside.  Ms. Howard, I thought I heard him say 1912 or 1913.  You translated 1912 or 1930.  Did you mean 13?  INTERPRETER:  No, 13.  COURT:  13.  Thank you.  A  And that was where they had their camp by the little  creek, and that's why it's called Ironside.  MR. MACAULAY:  Q   When you were very young did you go out with your  father on his trapline?  A   No.  No, because I was too small.  My mother died when  I was about three.  Q   How old were you when you first -- how old were you  when you first went out with your father on his  trapline?  I was about 12 years old.  And did your brother go out -- your brother Chris go  with you when you first went out on the trapline?  Yes.  And for how many years did you go with your father on  his trapline after the first time when you were 12?  I'll tell why we didn't go out with him all the time.  Chris, Ambrose and he, they were older than I was and  they went with my father all the time.  And Evelyn, me  and Lotti were younger and we stayed with my  grandmother.  Have you been fishing, commercial fishing at the  coast, that is off Prince Rupert?  I started when I was about 14 and I quit in 1975, and  during the whole time I guess I missed about two  years.  When you started did you use a sailboat?  Sailboat, yes.  THE INTERPRETER:  He said those were the sailboat days.  MR. MACAULAY:  Q   But eventually did you have your own gillnetter?  A  After I reach adulthood I got my own boat.  Q   When you first went to the coast when you were 14 did  your father and your brother Chris go with you?  A  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A 10062  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A   I went with Ambrose, my first brother.  2 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, the name?  3 A  Ambrose.  4 THE COURT:  Ambrose?  5 THE INTERPRETER:  A-M-B-R-O-S-E.  6 MR. MACAULAY:  Ambrose.  7 Q   And what month did you usually go to the coast to  8 fish?  9 A   It usually starts around April at a place where --  10 that they called Wilp sa hon.  That was at Balmoral at  11 Extol River.  12 Q   And when did you -- what month did you usually return  13 from fishing to your home in Gitksan territory?  14 A   If we leave right after the Sockeye season ends it  15 would be at the end of August, but if we stay for the  16 Coho then it would be the end of September.  17 Q   Did you stay sometimes for the Coho season?  18 A   Yes.  19 Q   And the travelling was done until what, until 1942 or  20 1943 by train?  21 A  We always used a train, but I'll tell when we start  22 using the automobile.  23 Q   When was that?  24 A   I guess you long remember when the war was on between  25 Germany, Japan and the Italians, and they put a road  26 into Prince Rupert in 1939, and it took about two  27 years afterwards and two roads joined together and  28 from then on whoever could afford a car got one and  29 that is what they used.  30 Q   When did you first get a car?  31 A   I remember.  32 Q   No, what year was it?  33 A   1961.  34 Q   After you married where did you live?  What was your  35 family home?  36 A  After I got married we stayed with my wife's family  37 for awhile in Kispiox, for about two years, and then  38 my wife's father sold the house to me.  39 Q   Your eldest son is Jeff Harris Jr.?  40 A   He's the youngest now.  41 Q   You have another son George Harris?  42 A   George is the first one.  43 Q   Is George still alive?  44 A   Yes.  45 Q   And where does he live?  4 6 A  Vancouver.  47 Q   Has he lived in Vancouver for a long time? 10063  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  Q  5  A  6  7  8  Q  9  A  10  11  12  Q  13  A  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  Q  32  33  34  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  39  40  THE COURT  41  MR. GRANT  42  THE COURT  43  MR. MACAU  44  45  46  47  A  Close to ten years.  And you have a daughter Gloria Harris?  Yes.  His first girl.  But your second son then is Jeff Harris Jr.?  I had four sons, but the one before Gloria died and  another one before Jeff.  Oh, after Gloria -- the one  after Gloria died and the one before Jeff.  Then Jeff Harris Jr. is your youngest son?  We made a mistake.  It was Jeffery.  Jeffery is the  youngest, second youngest one.  It was the one after  he that died.  And he is the head chief of the House of Ma'uus?  Yes.  He's sitting at the door -- by the door.  And you have a daughter Milley Harris?  Yes.  Where does she live?  Alberni.  That was where she married, but her husband  has died and she still hasn't returned home.  She married a Mr. Watts?  Yes.  We call him Tait.  Yes.  And is he a Gitksan?  No, he comes from Alberni.  When you were young did you go to school?  Not really.  Did your children go to school?  I'll tell you why I didn't go to school.  I would go  for a little while when school starts and then the  elders would go out on the territory and then I would  go with them.  I went as far as the fourth grade.  And  I quit going to school when I was 12 -- 11.  You've told us that you went to your father's trapline  only once or -- rather, I'll rephrase that, my lord.  The first time you went on your father's trapline  you were about 12 years old?  Yes.  Did you go on other traplines before you were 12?  I used to go out with my grandmother on Gitluudahl's  territory, 'cause my grandmother was married to a  person who has the name Gitluudahl.  I'm sorry.  She was married to Gitluudahl?  The person who held the name Gitluudahl.  Sorry.  AY:  To a person who held the name Gitluudahl, but the  witness -- I take it from the witness' answer that  must have been his grandmother's second husband, not  his grandfather.  I'm not pursuing that anyhow.  Gitluudahl was my grandfather. 10064  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 MR. MACAULAY:  2 Q   Was he your grandfather in the sense that whites use  3 that expression?  4 MR. GRANT:  Maybe —  5 MR. MACAULAY:  We have had a lot of evidence explaining --  6 MR. GRANT:  Maybe was your father's father your mother's father.  7 MR. MACAULAY:  8 Q   Was Gitluudahl your father's father or your mother's  9 father?  10 A   He was just another person.  The lady that raised us  11 was Jane, and we called her our grandmother, and she  12 was married to Gitluudahl.  13 Q   Your children went to school?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   Now, your brother Chris had a business in Kispiox?  16 A   Yes, he had a store.  17 Q   Did you take any part in the running of the store?  18 A   No.  19 Q   Your brother Chris had a sawmill?  20 A   No, it wasn't just his.  21 Q   Was he a partner in a sawmill?  22 MR. GRANT:  I think there was more of an answer.  23 A   There was me, Chris and Pete Muldoe.  We all had a  24 share in the mill.  2 5 MR. MACAULAY:  26 Q   For how long did you and your brother and Pete Muldoe  27 run the sawmill; how many years?  28 A  About two or three.  29 Q   And about what years were they; was it in the 1940's,  30 1950's, 1960's?  31 A   It was probably around forties.  32 Q   And where did your supply of logs come from?  33 A   Right.  It was just a little ways on top of Kispiox on  34 the right side of Sk'wa.  On the left side going up  35 the -- to Kispiox.  36 Q   Was the log supply outside the Indian reserve  37 boundaries?  38 A  We started on the outside of the reserve.  39 Q   Apart from those years -- when you and your brother  4 0 and Mr. Muldoe ran the sawmill have you had anything  41 to do with the logging business apart from those few  42 years?  43 A  We used to do poles.  44 Q   Did you cut poles for a contractor or did you have  45 your own pole business?  46 A   I just cut poles to -- just to get some bread.  47 Q   On whose property did you cut poles? 10065  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A  When they first started cutting poles it was Steve  2 Robinson and Steve Morrison and Ambrose, my brother.  3 Q   Now, did your brother Ambrose and Steve Morrison have  4 a pole cutting business?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And did you work for them?  7 A   Yes, for a short time, and then I go somewhere else.  8 Q   Did you work for any other pole cutting businesses  9 apart from Ambrose's?  10 A   Joshua Campbell across from Hazelton.  11 Q   Joshua Campbell is a Gitksan?  12 A   Yes.  13 Q   And he had a pole cutting business?  14 A   Yes.  15 Q   When you worked for Joshua Campbell did he tell you  16 where poles should be cut or did you just decide it?  17 A   Yes, he did.  We wouldn't just go out and cut poles,  18 we were always told where to.  19 Q   And when you cut poles for Ambrose did he tell you  20 where the poles should be cut?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   And Ambrose had some kind of forestry permit, did he?  23 A   Yes, he was given one.  That's why they were cutting  24 poles.  25 Q   Now, after you were married did you go trapping almost  26 every winter until say four or five years ago?  27 A   The time period when I was trying to raise my family  28 was pretty tough.  I had to go and cut poles whenever  29 I could, and I tried to do a little bit of trapping,  30 but we had to put up a lot of our own food.  31 Q   When your children were young did you spend most of  32 the winters pole cutting?  33 A   If I did good down the coast, like if I make about  34 $200, which is like two thousand today, I could buy  35 about the same amount of stuff for what I'd buy for  36 two thousand today with 200, but then --  37 Q   But you mentioned that when you were raising your  38 family things were difficult.  In those years when you  39 were raising your family did you spend most -- most of  40 your wintertime cutting poles or did you spend most of  41 your wintertime trapping?  42 A   If we do go trapping we usually leave around the end  43 of October and come back around Christmas time, and  44 if -- when we can get a job then we go to work.  45 Q   When your children were young what -- where did you go  46 trapping?  47 A  When I was young and when my children were growing up 10066  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 I went with my grandmother and Robert Morrison at a  2 place they called Wii Lax Amaasxw.  3 MR. MACAULAY:  We'll get a spelling for that, or a number.  4 THE INTERPRETER:  W-I-I space L-A-X underline space  5 A-M-A-A-S-X-W.  6 MR. MACAULAY:  7 Q   What house did that place belong to?  8 A  Ma'uus owns the northern part of the creek.  9 Q   I'm sorry.  I didn't hear that.  10 MR. GRANT:  Ma'uus owns the northern part of the creek.  11 MR. MACAULAY:  12 Q   Was there a registered trapline there?  13 A   Not at the time we were there.  The people didn't use  14 white people's registration.  15 Q   You didn't use white people's registration?  16 A   The time I am talking about was around 1916 1917.  It  17 was long time ago, and nothing was registered then.  18 Q   But I thought we were talking about the time after you  19 were married.  And maybe I misled you.  Where did you  20 trap after you were married and when you were bringing  21 up your family, a young family?  22 A   I went to where I said that we go to, Wii Lax Amaasxw  23 territory, when my grandmother was still alive.  24 Q   When did you stop going there?  25 A  Around the forties.  26 Q   Is that territory that you just mentioned where you  27 went with your grandmother, is that included in any of  28 the territories -- any of the three territories  29 described in your affidavit?  30 A   I'm really not sure, but I can't remember whether I  31 talked about it or not.  32 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, perhaps the witness can be shown his  33 affidavit and see if we can get to it that way.  34 THE COURT:  Yes.  There are three territories shown in the  35 affidavit.  Perhaps you could ask him if that Wii Lax  36 Amaasxw is in any of those three territories.  The  37 first one is on page two at the top of page two.  38 A   He says it's just about south of Xsagan Gaxda  39 territory, the Kuldo Creek.  4 0 MR. MACAULAY:  41 Q   After -- when did your grandmother die, what year?  42 MR. GRANT:  Which grandmother?  43 MR. MACAULAY:  The grandmother's territory this apparently was.  44 When did that grandmother die.  45 THE COURT:  I'm not sure it was his grandmother's territory.  46 MR. GRANT:  She was married to Gitluudahl and it was his  47 territory.  That's the evidence. 10067  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 THE COURT:  I wonder if it would be helpful if we asked him  2 where Wii Lax Amaasxw is.  3 MR. MACAULAY:  I'm — yes.  I'll get back to that, my lord.  I  4 want to know what time we are talking about and then  5 we can get back to the geography.  6 THE COURT:  Fine.  7 MR. MACAULAY:  8 Q   When did -- well, that's Jane.  Is it his grandmother  9 Jane?  When did your grandmother Jane die?  10 A   1930.  11 Q   And did you go -- after she died in 1930 did you  12 continue going to that territory to trap?  13 A   No, we didn't go there.  We went out to Wii Luu Wax.  14 Q   Went up to?  15 A  Wii Luu Wax.  Wii Luu Wax.  16 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  We need a spelling for that, please.  17 THE INTERPRETER:  W-I-I space L-U-U space W-A-X underline.  18 THE COURT:  One word?  L-U-U-W-A-X all one word?  19 A   Yes.  Underline.  2 0 MR. MACAULAY:  21 Q   Okay.  Now, you were used to reading marine charts?  22 A   The only thing I can read is tide-table book.  23 Q   Can you read maps of the kind I'm showing you?  24 My lord, I'm just showing the witness the N.T.S.  25 one over 50,000 that I bought this morning downstairs.  26 A   If you -- I might if you point out the areas you want  27 to know about.  28 Q   Well, I was going to ask you if the territory you went  29 to before your grandmother Jane died, is that  30 territory shown on that map?  31 A   In which area, the Kispiox area or the Skeena River?  32 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, better go about it another way, I guess.  33 MR. GRANT:  If my friend's trying to place it I would suggest he  34 may consider asking him where this creek is in  35 relation to one of the villages or one of the known  36 landmarks.  It may be such as the major rivers  37 obviously would flow into one of those rivers  38 ultimately.  There's other ways of getting to the  39 point that the witness may be able to pinpoint for him  40 precisely.  41 THE COURT:  Twenty questions.  Do you want to adjourn, Mr.  42 Macaulay, and start again, or do you want to pursue  43 it?  44 MR. MACAULAY:  Perhaps we can use up another minute or two since  45 time is precious.  4 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  47 1006?  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 MR. MACAULAY:  2 Q   The trapline that you used before Jane died in 1930,  3 is that near Kuldo, New Kuldo or Old Kuldo?  4 THE INTERPRETER:  I asked him if he knows English name for the  5 creek, but he says it's at Xsagan Gaxda, and that's  6 Kuldo Creek.  And there's a flat there that white  7 people -- it's not -- he says that the white people  8 called it Gwiis Xsagan Gaxda.  He's got it mixed up  9 Wii Lax Amaasxw.  10 Q   This trapping area is on or near Kuldo Creek, is it?  11 A   Second cabin is just below the creek they called  12 Xsagan Gaxda.  13 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, my lord, we only have an hour for lunch so  14 I think perhaps we --  15 THE COURT:  All right.  16 MR. MACAULAY:  — Won't bite into that too much and come back to  17 the location.  18 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  19 MR. GRANT:  I wonder if my friend could give me any indication  20 so I could advise counsel and the other witness how  21 long they would be with this witness.  22 MR. MACAULAY:  Certainly be another hour, my lord, and I might  23 be a little longer than that.  24 THE COURT:  Yes.  And you'll be awhile, will you, Miss —  25 MS. SIGURDSON:  I'll be very brief.  2 6 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Two o'clock.  Thank you.  27 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  28  2 9 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED FOLLOWING LUNCHEON RECESS)  30  31 THE REGISTRAR:  Mr. Harris, I remind you, you're still under  32 oath.  33 THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay.  34 MR. MACAULAY:  35 Q   The trapline that you -- on which you trapped before  36 1930, was that along any part of Kuldo Creek, either  37 upper or lower Kuldo Creek?  38 A   Starting at Wii Lax Amaasxw it goes up Xsagan Gaxda  39 and it crosses over where Gwiis Xsagan Gaxda, and it  40 goes up on the other side.  41 MR. GRANT:  That Gwiis Xsagan Gaxda is number two on paragraph 7  42 of page two of the affidavit, and Xsagan Gaxda is  43 number one.  4 4 MR. MACAULAY:  45 Q   Well, then the area you trapped in was the area  46 described on the second page of your affidavit; is  47 that right? 10069  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A Yes.  2 Q And that was before your grandmother Jane died?  3 A Yes.  I was pretty close to being an adult at the  4 time.  5 Q When were you -- in what year were you married?  6 A 1934.  7 Q Now, after your grandmother Jane died you trapped in  8 another area, Wii luu wax?  9 A Wii luu wax.  10 Q And is that near Kuldo Creek?  11 A No.  12 Q Can you tell me what river that, or what town or  13 mountain that is near?  14 A Wii luu wax runs into the Kispiox River.  15 Q On the west or the east side?  16 MR. GRANT:  You mean coming in from the west or the east side?  17 MR. MACAULAY:  18 Q Yes.  Does it come in from the west or the east side?  19 A From the east side.  20 Q And in whose territory was that trapping ground?  21 A That was my father's when he was still alive.  22 Q Is that territory the one we spoke of earlier that  23 includes Ironside Creek?  24 A Yes, that's the one.  25 Q And how many years did you go trapping on that  26 trapping ground?  27 A I never counted the years or kept track of it.  I just  28 know I was the last one that went out with my father  29 'cause he was close to being blind the last time he  30 was out there.  31 Q Your father died about 1952?  32 A Yes.  33 Q And he was not able to trap for a few years before  34 that?  35 A I did the trapping for him.  He just stayed in the  3 6 camp.  37 Q And in 1952 your brother and yourself became the  38 registered trapline holders of that area?  39 A Yes.  40 Q And you still are registered, the registered trapline  41 holder of that area?  42 A Yes.  43 Q Your father made a will before he died?  44 A Yes.  45 Q And in that will he left the trapline to yourself and  46 to your brother Chris?  47 A Yes. 10070  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   And your father also left the ranch to your brother  2 Chris and to yourself?  3 A   No.  He sold it while he was still alive, but they  4 took the house to Kispiox.  They moved the house to  5 Kispiox.  6 Q   To whom was the ranch sold?  7 A   I don't remember.  It might -- the owner of that took  8 it then might still be on there now.  9 Q   Was it a Mr. Halverson?  10 A   Yes, that's the one.  11 Q   And was that three or four years before your father  12 died that he sold the ranch?  13 A   Yes.  14 Q   You have continued trapping on that trapline, that is  15 the one on which you are now the registered owner,  16 holder of the trapline until what, four, five years  17 ago?  18 A  Well, I haven't done much trapping out there 'cause  19 there is nothing there.  No trees.  Nothing but  2 0 stumps.  21 Q   When did you stop trapping on that trapline?  22 A   I don't remember.  It wasn't too long ago.  I haven't  23 been very well lately.  24 Q   And you and your son made plans to go back to the  25 Kuldo area to start trapping?  26 A  My son, who is the holder of the name Ma'uus, that  27 will be his, not mine.  28 Q   Well, you made an application for some capital funds  29 not long ago in order to develop a trapline that had  30 not been used for many years?  31 A   Our plans were that we were gonna build a main cabin  32 on the Wii Lax Amaasxw and Jeffery was going to go one  33 way and towards his territory and I go up the other  34 way towards Luus.  35 Q   You haven't been on Luus territory since?  36 MR. GRANT:  Which one?  There's more than one.  37 MR. MACAULAY:  38 Q   Well, have you been on any Luus territory since about  39 1930?  40 A   No, I haven't, but I am the holder of the name Luus.  41 It was passed on to me when the former holder died.  42 Q   The former holder of the name was your brother Chris?  43 A   Yes.  44 Q   And after your -- or about the time your father died,  45 just before your father died, Chris, who was Luus  46 then, transferred his trapline to Richard Benson?  47 A   I don't know.  I don't know anything about it.  And I 10071  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 don't think Richard went out there.  2 Q   Well, you never heard that Richard -- first -- I'll  3 start again.  You know who Richard Benson was?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   And he was a member of your house?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And had a chief's name in your house?  8 A   He went into Wii Eelast house.  That's Wii Eelast.  9 Q   You mean he was adopted by Wii Eelast house?  10 A   He took a name from Wii Eelast's house.  He are --  11 they gave him a name.  12 Q   And you didn't know -- or did you know if Richard  13 Benson was the registered trapline holder of the  14 territory described on page two of your affidavit?  15 MR. GRANT:  Can my friend indicate when he's talking about?  We  16 have been jumping.  17 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, Richard Benson died last week.  Until last  18 week, or week before.  19 MR. GRANT:  He died about a month ago.  20 MR. MACAULAY:  Was it a month ago?  Sorry.  21 MR. GRANT:  Approximately.  But I'm just wondering when my  22 friend is referring to, because he's talked about  23 since 1930, he's also talked about the time of Mr.  24 Harris father's death, and he's jumped into a number  25 of dates.  26 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, I'm grateful to my friend for bringing me  27 back into chronological order.  I think I should put  28 it to the witness the time I'm talking about.  29 Q   Did you know whether or not Richard Benson was the  30 registered holder of the trapline covered by -- the  31 trapline you describe as Gwiis Xsagan Gaxda, Kuldo  32 Creek, from 1950 until the time he died?  33 A   I don't know.  All I can remember is that we only went  34 out there once with Richard and Pete Muldoe.  35 Q   Did you know whether or not your brother Chris was the  36 registered holder of that trapline before Richard  37 Benson?  38 A   Our laws are that whoever takes the deceased person's  39 name is usually the holder of that territory that he  40 have before he died.  41 Q   Well —  42 A   The -- when the registration of territories or  43 traplines is different from our system.  44 Q   But now did you know whether Chris Harris, your  45 brother Chris, who was the chief before you, was the  46 registered holder of the trapline on the Gwiis Xsagan  47 Gaxda territory before 19 -- up to 1950, before 1950? 10072  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 A   It isn't Luus' territory.  2 Q   Well, that doesn't answer my question.  Did you know  3 whether or not Chris was the registered holder of that  4 trapline before 1950?  5 A   I wouldn't know.  Maybe did.  6 Q   Did you ever see a map that was drawn up by your  7 brother Chris and then with the assistance of Neil  8 Sterritt showing the various territories of various  9 houses?  10 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  My lord, I think my friend may be  11 misunderstood there.  As I understand it the Chris  12 Harris map was a map that was prepared by Chris Harris  13 and given to Neil Sterritt.  It wasn't prepared with  14 Neil Sterritt.  15 MR. MACAULAY:  I stand corrected.  I would be glad to adopt my  16 friend's definition.  17 MR. GRANT:  That's my recollection of the evidence.  18 MR. MACAULAY:  Yeah.  19 Q   Have you ever seen what's been called the Chris Harris  2 0 map?  21 A   I've seen it with you.  I never really paid much  22 attention to it.  23 Q   Now, I'll show you my copy.  We all have a copy of  24 that, and I'll show you that part.  It's the --  25 MR. GRANT:  Maybe you can show him all of it so we can --  26 MR. MACAULAY:  I'm drawing the witness' attention to the lower  27 right hand quadrant, my lord, of this large document  28 to an area which bears the label T-O-'-O-X-S, and it  29 has -- below that is shown a creek which is named  30 Kuldo Creek.  31 Q   Now, you see that area on this map?  32 A   Yeah.  33 Q   Do you know who T-O-'-O-X-S is?  34 A   No.  35 MR. MACAULAY:  Thank you.  My lord, I'll just hand that up so  36 your lordship can see the area that I was asking  37 about.  The exhibits are here.  38 THE COURT:  Yes.  Thank you.  3 9 MR. MACAULAY:  40 Q   The head chief of your house before your brother Chris  41 Harris, was that Abel Tate?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And did you know whether or not Abel Tate's heirs  44 transferred their interest in the trapline that you  45 describe in -- well, part of it which -- anyhow, which  46 includes the land you describe on page two to Chris,  47 your brother Chris Harris? 10073  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 MR. GRANT:  Well, when my friend refers to heirs is he referring  2 to heirs under the Indian Affairs system of paternal  3 estates or is he referring to through the Gitksan  4 system?  I think it might make a difference who he's  5 talking about.  6 MR. MACAULAY:  I'll put the names to him.  I'm not suggesting  7 that this witness saw any particular document.  8 THE COURT:  No.  9 MR. MACAULAY:  10 Q   Abel Tate had sons called Albert and Willy?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And when Abel Tate, that is Luus, died, or after he  13 died did Albert and Willy transfer their interest in  14 this trapline on page two of your affidavit to Chris,  15 your brother?  16 A   I've already told you the laws of the Gitksan people  17 that whoever takes the name when a chief dies also  18 takes the territory.  19 Q   Okay.  20 A  And that was what happened to Abel's sons, they went  21 back to their own house's territory.  22 Q   Now, if your son, Ma'uus, that is Jeff Harris Jr.,  23 takes over this trapline that will involve a change  24 from the wolf clan to frog clan, won't it?  25 MR. GRANT:  My lord, I think it's confusion.  I don't know if  26 it's my friends confusion or mine, but my friend keeps  27 referring to page two as a registered trapline.  He  28 did in the last two questions.  2 9 THE COURT:  Yes.  30 MR. GRANT:  And he may well not have intended to do that.  I  31 think that my friend in questioning the witness should  32 make it clear whether he's talking about the  33 registered trapline or whether he's talking about the  34 territory described in paragraph two, because I think  35 there's a significant difference.  3 6 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, I'll go back to it.  I don't know whether  37 there's a siginificant difference.  38 THE COURT:  I don't either.  39 MR. GRANT:  Well, there — I don't know if there is  40 geographically.  There certainly is conceptually.  I  41 think that it may be that if my friend is talking  42 about registration system and --  43 THE COURT:  You put your friend on notice, Mr. Grant.  He can  44 deal with it as he sees best.  4 5 MR. GRANT:  Yes.  4 6 MR. MACAULAY:  47 Q   Your son Jeffery Harris Jr. is Ma'uus, and he is in 10074  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  the frog clan?  A   You didn't say it quite correctly.  You say Ma'uus.  Q   Ma'uus.  And is he in the frog clan?  A   Yes.  Q   Richard Benson was a member of the Luus house and he  was in the wolf clan?  A   Yes.  Q   And your brother, of course, was head chief of Luus  and he was in the wolf clan?  A   Yes.  Q   Richard Benson trapped in the territory you describe  on page two of your affidavit?  A   I think you only -- he went there only once, but he  was trapping mostly on the other side of Kuldo.  Kuldo  territory.  Q   Now, if you turn the page to the next territory in  your affidavit, page three, that's Xsa Gay Laaxan.  Have you trapped there?  No, but we usually go up that way when we go to the  mountain.  And did you know if Henry Brown had a registered  trapline that covered part of that trapping ground?  Yes, he did.  And do you know what house Henry Brown belongs to?  He is with the House of Ma'uus.  :  I'm sorry.  He's with the House of Ma'uus.  The name he held at  the time was Gawa.  GRANT:  I didn't hear that.  A  A  Q  A  THE COURT  A  MACAULAY:  The name he held at the time was Gawa.  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Wasn't Henry Brown in Luutkudziiwas' house?  No.  Luutkudziiwas lives or comes from Hazelton.  And did you know if -- whether or not Hazel Amelia  Angus, who used to be known as Hazel Amelia Dick, had  a trapline that covered part of that hunting ground in  page three?  No, I don't know.  Had you -- did you know Hazel Amelia Angus?  Yes.  And she was a member of the house, your house?  Yes, but they were adopted into Wii Eelast house.  Do you know Norman Weget?  Yes.  And is he a member of your house?  He moved into Wii Eelast house.  But before he moved was he a member of your house?  Yes. 10075  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   And do you know whether or not he has taken over Hazel  2 Amelia Angus' trapline registration?  3 A   I'll tell you about the territory.  There was a man  4 who had the name Lewis, and he was known as Lewis  5 Wesley, and when he died Percy Wilson has taken his  6 name.  Now Percy has died too.  And after Percy died  7 the name Amagyet has been passed on to Leo Braton.  8 THE COURT:  To who?  9 A  Leo Braton.  10 THE COURT:  Thank you.  11 A   That's the name Amagyet.  And that was -- that was the  12 person Lewis Wesley who was on that territory.  13 MR. MACAULAY:  14 Q   Well, you must -- I was asking you if you were aware  15 of the registration -- the transfer of the  16 registration of a trapline in the area covered by page  17 three of your affidavit from Hazel Amelia Angus to  18 Norman Weget.  19 A   I haven't heard.  Maybe that's what happened.  20 Q   Norman Weget is a member of the wolf clan?  21 A   Yes.  22 Q   Now, let's turn to the last of the territories in your  23 affidavit.  Starting at page five, my lord, in  24 paragraph 16, the fourth line you refer to Percy  25 Williams.  Do you mean -- do you really mean Percy  26 Wilson who used to be Amagyet?  27 A   Yes.  28 MR. MACAULAY:  That should read Wilson, my lord.  2 9 THE COURT:  All right.  30 MR. GRANT:  I agree, my lord, that was clearly an oversight.  I  31 think it was a typographical thing.  It was Wilson.  32 It always was Percy Wilson.  33 MR. MACAULAY:  I take no issue with that.  34 MR. GRANT:  Thank you.  35 MR. MACAULAY:  The witness has just mentioned Percy Wilson.  I  36 thought it would be a good idea to note it was the  37 same person as in line four.  38 Q   Now, when Percy Wilson died there were no people with  39 chief's names in the Amagyet house; is that right?  4 0          A   No one took the name right at the time when Percy  41 died, but since then they have held another feast and  42 Leo Braton has taken the name.  43 Q   But before Percy died he was the only person with the  44 chief's name in his house; is that right?  45 A   Right.  46 Q   And who looked after the affairs of the house the day  47 after he died when there was no person with a chief's 10076  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  name?  They let the name rest for awhile before they passed  it on.  Well, Amagyet --  Our system doesn't work like white people's system.  Amagyet is a wolf clan house, isn't it?  Yes.  And you are wolf clan?  Yes.  But I don't really have anything to do with it.  Is there another member of a wolf house who has a --  is -- is recognized as the senior chief in the wolf  clan?  Wii Eelast.  Wii Eelast.  Now, you say that you have been told by  people who are now dead that that third territory, Lax  Hla Gant, belongs to Amagyet?  Yes, that's right.  Did you know whether or not Roy Wilson had a trapline,  registered trapline that covered that whole area, this  Amagyet area, the third one?  Maybe so in the white system, but not in the Gitksan.  But Roy -- and Roy Wilson is a member of the House of  Ma'uus?  Yes.  And that is the frog clan?  Yes.  And did you know that the registration was transferred  to Roy Wilson from Jacob Morrison?  Yes.  That is probably what happened, but you have  heard what I said that we don't recognize it in our  system.  Roy Wilson trapped on that territory you describe at  page five in your affidavit.  Roy Wilson.  I'm talking  about this third territory you start describing at  page five, Lax Hla Gant territory.  Roy Wilson and his  company trapped on that trapline?  Well, that's not a trapline, and --  On that territory, you mean?  MR. MACAULAY:  On that territory.  Sorry.  THE COURT:  On Lax Hla Gant.  MR. GRANT:  Lax Hla Gant, on that territory?  MR. MACAULAY:  On that territory.  MR. GRANT:  I'm interested in how my friend will be able to  establish that, because the trapline boundaries don't  coincide with it.  MR. MACAULAY:  I didn't suggest they coincided.  I said it more  than covers.  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  MR. GRANT  THE COURT 10077  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 MR. GRANT:  Okay.  2 THE COURT:  Yes.  Yes.  He's going to establish it, he hopes, by  3 asking the witness.  4 MR. MACAULAY:  And if not this way another.  5 THE COURT:  Some other way, perhaps.  We'll see.  I think you  6 should put the question again, Mr. Macaulay.  The  7 witness is going to be confused by all of this side --  8 MR. MACAULAY:  9 Q   Did you know if Roy Wilson trapped in that ground --  10 at that ground you described at page five and page six  11 of your affidavit?  12 A  Amagyet had a narrow strip of territory inbetween  13 Ma'uus, and he usually goes up that way, but I don't  14 know if Roy Wilson actually did any trapping on  15 Ma'uus' territory, but Amagyet has a narrow strip up  16 that way.  17 Q   Now, one of the three people you relied upon about  18 your information of these three territories was  19 Matthew Morrison, Ma'uus?  2 0 A   Long time ago.  21 Q   But he is mentioned in your affidavit?  22 A   I went out with him when I was still very young at  23 Gwiis Xsagan Gaxda.  24 Q   He died in 1922?  25 A   I'm not sure about the year, but all I can remember  2 6 was that he drowned and they never did find his body.  27 Q   Well, he was Ma'uus.  That was his chief's name?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   So the genealogy of Wilps will show his name?  30 A   Yes.  31 Q   And Lewis Wesley, you mentioned Lewis Wesley a half  32 hour ago?  33 A   Yes.  That was the man who held the name Amagyet.  34 Q   And he was another of the people mentioned in your  35 affidavit as giving you information about these  36 territories?  37 A   Yes.  They actually lived out there on the territory.  38 That is how it was made known to other people who  39 owned the territories.  40 Q   And he died in 1929?  41 A   I don't remember.  Maybe so.  42 THE COURT:  I'm sorry, Mr. Macaulay.  I'm not sure whether the  43 witness agreed with you or not that Matthew Morrison  44 died in 1922.  45 MR. MACAULAY:  Well, we'll have to refer to the — he said it  46 was a very long time ago.  That's all.  47 THE COURT:  He said long, long time ago, but then you put it to 1007?  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  him and we got another answer.  I don't want -- you  put it to him squarely.  GRANT:  My note is he wasn't certain when he died, but it  was -- I was very young.  INTERPRETER:  All he remembered is that he said he drowned.  COURT:  He drowned.  Does he remember how old he was when  Matthew Morrison drowned?  A   I was born in 1911 so you figure it out.  MACAULAY:  Well, yes I can figure it out.  COURT:  Can't figure that one out.  MACAULAY:  Q   Were you about 11 or 12 when Matthew Morrison died?  A  About 11 or 12 years.  COURT:  All right.  MACAULAY:  Q   Were you about 18 or 19 when Lewis Wesley died?  A   I was probably around there.  Although I can  understand some of what you are saying I could maybe  get by, but I want you to hear that I know my  language.  Q   Oh, we are not complaining about that.  Now, Robert Morrison was the third person that you  relied on for information about boundaries to these  territories?  A   Yes.  Q   And he was a member of the House of Ma'uus?  A   Yes.  Q   And did he -- was one of his names Guu Duulk?  A   Guu Duulk.  COURT:  We'll need a spelling for that, please.  GRANT:  G-U-U one word D-U-U-L-K the second word.  Referred  to in paragraph 17 of the affidavit.  COURT:  Thank you.  MACAULAY:  Q   And how long ago did he die?  A   I'm not sure.  I can't say exactly what year.  It was  after my grandmother died.  Q   Well, your grandmother was Jane Crosby; is that right?  A   Jane Morrison.  Q   Was her maiden name before she married was it Jane  Crosby?  A   No.  Q   Was she born about 1866?  A   I wasn't around at the time so I can't tell you.  Q   Witness, I'm reading from the -- from a document that  is the genealogy of Wilps Ma'uus dated February 2nd,  1988, and it shows -- the only Robert Morrison that it 10079  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 shows is shown as being married to Jane Crosby.  So is  2 that a different Robert Morrison than you mentioned in  3 your affidavit?  4 A   The man that she married first was to a person named  5 Alexander Gitluudahl.  6 Q   Well, did Robert Morrison die in the early 1940's?  7 A   Yes.  Matthew Morrison was married to Kathleen, and I  8 think they have it mixed up in the genealogy chart,  9 that's why they call Jane Crosby, and after Matthew  10 died Kathleen married John Crosby.  11 MR. MACAULAY:  My lord, if there is going to be an adjournment.  12 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  Adjourn.  13 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  This court is adjourned 15  14 minutes.  15  16 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AND RESUMED FOLLOWING SHORT RECESS)  17  18 THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay.  19 MR. MACAULAY:  I think I can identify the witness' grandmother  20 about which a great deal of evidence has been given,  21 my lord.  22 Q   Now, I'm going to spell a name.  I don't know how to  23 pronounce it, Mr. Harris.  I'll spell a name and ask  24 you if that was your grandmother's chief name.  25 M-A-S-G-A-L-I-I-A-S-X-W.  26 A  Masgaluuasxw.  27 Q   Was that your grandmother's chief name?  28 A   They hold different names at different times.  It all  2 9 depends on what they are doing at the time or who --  30 who may have passed on.  31 Q   Well, was that one of the names she had at one time in  32 her life?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   Okay.  And she was married to Alexander Gitluudahl?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And he was a -- she was a member of the wolf clan?  37 A   Yes.  38 Q   And Alexander Gitluudahl was a member of the fireweed  39 clan?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   And when you were very young and went up to Kuldo  42 Creek with your grandmother Jane was Alexander still  43 alive then?  44 A   I told you my grandmother was married to Alexander  45 before Robert Morrison, but it was after she married  46 Robert that we go out to the territory.  47 THE COURT:  She married Robert Morrison after they went out to 10080  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 the territories, is that what he said?  2 THE INTERPRETER:  It was after she was married to Robert that  3 they would go out to the territory.  4 THE COURT:  Oh, I see.  5 MR. GRANT:  The spelling of that name, if my friend is finished  6 this area, the name where he said I-I should be U-U as  7 I have it.  That would be M-A-S-G-A-L-U-U-A-S-X-W,  8 just for the record, my lord.  9 MR. MACAULAY:  10 Q   The people of Kuldo used to go to the Nass to get  11 Oolichan grease and Oolichans?  12 A   Yes, I heard that they did that, but that was before  13 my time.  14 Q   Didn't you carry boxes of Oolichan grease yourself  15 when you were young from the Nass?  16 A   I already told you that that was before my time.  17 Q   And the -- the wars between the people of Kuldo and  18 the Nisga'a and the wars between the people of Kuldo  19 and the Stikine that was also before your time?  20 A   Yes, it was told to me.  21 Q   Your grandmother told you about those things?  22 A   Yes.  23 Q   And when she was young she remembered one of the cases  24 when women were captured by the Nisga'a or the  25 Stikine.  26 MR. GRANT:  Just a moment.  My friend — I can't understand that  27 question.  I don't know how it could be translated  2 8 when she was young she remembered.  Does that mean it  29 was something before her time or does it mean when she  30 was young this happened?  31 MR. MACAULAY:  32 Q   When there were still raids on Kuldo involving the  33 capture of Kuldo people when your grandmother was  34 young?  35 A   It was just told to her too.  And the other thing I  36 remember her telling me was the first time they saw a  37 white person.  38 Q   You mentioned -- I think that was what you were  39 talking about.  You mentioned it was important to  40 speak the Gitksan language?  41 A   If I -- if I couldn't use my own language and said  42 that I was a Gitksan person the others wouldn't look  43 at me as a Gitksan if I can't use my own language.  44 Q   The Gitksan language isn't used much now?  45 A   Yes, because it isn't being taught much to our  46 children.  They are taught the English language more.  47 Q   And many young Gitksan don't understand you when you 10081  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 speak in Gitksan?  2 A   They are about 15 years behind me.  They don't know  3 the old language.  4 Q   And the preparation for hunting that you -- the  5 Gitksan used to use, that is no longer much used at  6 that kind of preparation?  7 A   They don't practise with very much today, but I know  8 about it, and if there is someone who wants to know I  9 can teach them.  10 Q   You took -- when you took your chief's name you did so  11 in the feast hall?  12 A   The way I remember it it was first mentioned in the  13 church and then afterwards we went over to the feast  14 hall.  15 Q   And did you have to stay for the feast?  16 A   That is the laws of our people, and all my house  17 members came and helped me.  They made a contribution.  18 And even some of the Wet'suwet'en people came and  19 contributed.  20 Q   And how much was spent on the feast?  21 A   No idea.  I don't remember.  22 Q   How long ago was it that you took the name in the  23 feast hall?  24 A  When Chris died.  25 Q   When was that?  26 A   It was quite awhile ago.  It must be 16, 18 years.  27 Q   Did you ever trap on the -- that thin wedge of  28 territory that's referred to at pages five and six of  29 your affidavit, that is the Lax Hla Gant territory?  30 A   I already told you this morning that we only walk up  31 on that territory when we go up to the mountain.  32 MR. MACAULAY:  I hadn't realized I had covered that, my lord,  33 that it was territory B, the second one.  I'm going to  34 show the witness a document which he may or may not be  35 able to identify.  I've shown other witnesses before.  36 Q   I'm showing you a document, Mr. Harris, which mentions  37 the name Jeffery Harris and the -- the chief's name  38 G-W-E-L-A-Y-H-A-N.  Did you have — before you — did  39 you ever have a name like that chief's name,  4 0 G-W-E-L-A-Y-H-A-N?  41 A  Where is this?  I can't see.  42 THE COURT:  Would you spell it again, Mr. Macaulay, please.  4 3    MR. MACAULAY:  G-W-E-L-A-Y-H-A-N.  44 A   Gwelayhan.  4 5    MR. MACAULAY:  4 6 Q   Did you ever have the name Gwelayhan?  47 A   Yeah.  Yeah, I do. 10082  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Q   Have you ever seen that document described as a  2 resolution dated --  3 MR. GRANT:  Well, I think — I think if my friend wants him to  4 see if he has recognized the document madam  5 interpreter will have to read it to him and translate  6 it.  7 MR. MACAULAY:  Oh, yes.  8 THE COURT:  It's not signed.  9 MR. MACAULAY:  It's a typed document.  10 THE COURT:  All right.  Read it to him, please, if Mr. Macaulay  11 wishes him to.  12 THE INTERPRETER:  He doesn't remember about that.  He knows all  13 the people on the list.  14 MR. MACAULAY:  I'm told this is Exhibit 116, my lord.  It's our  15 document 10754.  16 THE COURT:  Perhaps you should put a formal question to the  17 witness.  18 MR. GRANT:  My understanding thus far is he recognizes the  19 names.  Yes.  But he doesn't recall the --  I think that's -- I think that's madam interpreter's  23 summary of her discussion with him.  I think there  24 should be a formal question.  2 5 MR. MACAULAY:  26 Q   Mr. Harris, did you join in a resolution presented to  27 the Special General Assembly of Union of B.C. Indian  28 Chiefs by the Hereditary Gitksan Chiefs of the Kispiox  29 and Skeena Valleys in April of 1975, which resolution  30 is worded that way, this document?  31 A   I've attended quite a few meetings, but I can't  32 exactly tell you which one it was.  33 Q   You attended quite a few meetings concerning the  34 Nisga'a claims, is that what you -- what you're  35 referring to?  36 A   I remember we held a meeting where it was decided that  37 we would invite the Nisga'a people, which we did, but  38 they never came.  And then we had another one.  There  39 was another invitation sent out to them, and we had  40 little prayer about it, and that was the meeting held  41 in Kitwanga and the Nisga'a people came again.  42 Q   But do you recall a resolution of the kind that's set  43 out on that paper and that has been translated to you  44 just now?  45 A   No, I can't remember.  46 MR. MACAULAY:  I've just got one more matter to cover, my lord.  47 Q   Have you ever heard of a hunting ground known as  2 0    THE COURT  21 MR. GRANT  22 THE COURT 10083  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  1 Giist?  2 A   I know quite a few.  I know Maxhla Giist, Ghlaanhl  3 Giist and the Giist right across Wii Lax Amaasxw.  4 Q   Is there a Giist near the second cabin?  5 A   It's on the other side.  6 Q   Yeah.  And did you know Catherine Morrison and Alice  7 and Jane Williams?  Two people, Alice and Jane  8 Williams.  9 A   They're sisters, and very close relationship mine.  10 Q   They are close relations of yours?  11 A   Yes.  12 Q   And what house did Cathleen Morrison and Alice and  13 Jane Williams belong to?  14 MR. GRANT:  Maybe my friend should break that up.  They may not  15 have been all the same.  16 MR. MACAULAY:  All right.  17 Q   Lets start with Cathleen Morrison.  What house did she  18 belong to?  19 A   They all belong to the same house.  20 Q   And what house is that?  21 A   Luus.  22 Q   Is the Giist across from the second cabin, is that in  23 the territory that you described at page two of your  24 affidavit, that is the Gwiis Xsagan Gaxda territory?  25 A   It's just on the other side of the river or creek.  26 Why that little creek is called Giist is because Coho  27 and Trout spawn at the mouth.  28 Q   So the hunting ground called Giist near the second  29 cabin is close to but not part of this territory on  30 page two?  31 A   Yes, that's right.  32 THE COURT:  Mr. Macaulay, could I have a spelling for Giist?  33 MR. MACAULAY:  G-W-E-E-S-T.  34 THE COURT:  G-W-E-E-S-T.  35 MR. MACAULAY:  But that is an Anglo spelling of a word.  I don't  36 know if the spellers today would approve of that.  37 THE COURT:  How would you spell it?  38 THE INTERPRETER:  G-I-I-S-T.  3 9 THE COURT:  Thank you.  4 0 MR. MACAULAY:  41 Q   Were these three ladies that I just mentioned, were  42 they daughters -- was their father named Henry?  43 A   I don't know their father's English name.  44 Q   What was his chief's name?  45 A   I can't tell you that either.  It was long time ago.  46 Q   Does the name Kish'm gwe'n airth sound familiar?  4 7 THE COURT:  No. 10084  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Mr. Macaulay  MACAULAY:  I'm not making it up, my lord.  It was made up in  1922.  GRANT:  Maybe you should give that word to the word person  so she can --  COURT:  You'll have to spell it, Mr. Macaulay.  MACAULAY:  K-I-S-H-M - G-W-E-N - A-I-R-T-H.  INTERPRETER:  Can you spell that again to see if I got the  right spelling?  MACAULAY:  K-I-S-H-M, then another word, G-W-E-N, and then  another word, A-I-R-T-H.  A   No.  MACAULAY:  No.  There's no use putting the document to the  witness, my lord.  I'm certain he won't have seen it.  If they were close relatives -- perhaps I will put it  to the witness come to think of it, because there's  one chance in a million that he might have.  I haven't  made copies, because I was just wanting to get the  names.  Similar one in 1931, my lord.  I'll put two  documents or notices to the witness, my lord, and if  they were posted at or near any of his former trapping  places then he might recognize it.  Q   Mr. Harris, the only question I have is whether or not  you recall ever having seen documents like the two  being shown here now, one dated 1922 and the other  dated 1931?  GRANT:  Well, I ask those two documents, because they are a  notice and he may have seen something like them, I  presume my friend wants to know if he has seen those  notices?  MACAULAY:  Those or other copies of that document.  GRANT:  Yes.  A   No, this is the first time.  MACAULAY:  The only clue we have, my lord, there is a Henry  whose daughter -- who had daughters named Jane and  Cathleen, but his chief's name was  H-Y-M-Q-U-I-M-A-C-K.  COURT:  There was a Henry who had wives by those names.  MACAULAY:  No, daughters.  COURT:  Oh.  GRANT:  And his chief's name was Eighth.  A   I just can't recall that name.  MACAULAY:  No.  Well, it was helpful anyhow, my lord.  We  know what family the ladies belong to.  COURT:  Yes.  We have established that.  MACAULAY:  Those are my questions for this witness, my lord.  COURT:  Thank you.  Ms. Sigurdson.  1  MR.  2  3  MR.  4  5  THE  6  MR.  7  THE  8  9  MR.  10  11  12  MR.  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  MR.  27  28  29  30  MR.  31  MR.  32  33  MR.  34  35  36  37  THE  38  MR.  39  THE  40  MR.  41  42  MR.  43  44  THE  45  MR.  46  THE  47 10085  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Ms. Sigurdson  1 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. SIGURDSON:  2 Q   Mr. Harris, I just have a few questions.  You say that  3 Leo Braton took the name Amagyet?  4 A   Yes, after the feast.  5 Q   And when was the feast, please?  6 A   I guess you'll remember when Richard died.  That was  7 when they held the feast together with Richard.  8 Q   Within the last month Richard Benson --  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   You discussed Ironsides Creek.  Whose territory is  11 that in, please?  12 A  My father's when he was still alive.  13 Q   And his chief's name was?  14 A   Yeah, I can't remember his name, but he used to live  15 with Delgamuukw out on the territory.  16 Q   He was a member of the House of Delgamuukw?  17 A   He belonged to the Lax Seel.  His name was Ax wii lums  18 Neex.  19 Q   Was the Ironsides -- pardon me.  20 THE COURT:  Just a moment, please.  Are you asking, and was the  21 witness having trouble remembering the name of his  22 father -- of his father's chiefly name?  23 MS. SIGURDSON:  Yes.  24 THE COURT:  That's what we were heading toward.  25 THE INTERPRETER:  Ax wii lums Neex.  A-X underline W-I-L space  26 L-U-M-S space N-E-E-X underline.  2 7 THE COURT:  Thank you.  2 8 MS. SIGURDSON:  29 Q   Did the House of Luus acquire the territory at  30 Ironsides in a peace settlement?  31 A   No.  You've heard that my father willed that piece of  32 territory or land to us before he died, but if you  33 really want to know then I will explain why, but I  34 told you already this morning.  35 Q   Well, let me ask you this.  Do you recall talking to  36 Violet Smith on August 24th, 1981?  37 A   I remember.  38 Q   We were given some notes of the conversation Mrs.  39 Smith had with you on that date.  4 0 A   Yes, I remember.  41 Q   And did you tell Miss Smith that your father gave the  42 territory up the river to the Luus people?  4 3 A   I remember.  44 Q   I'd like to read the last half of the first paragraph  45 and ask that it be translated and ask if that is your  46 understanding.  And I start halfway down where it says  47 my father was afraid. 10086  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Cross-exam by Ms. Sigurdson  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 "My father was afraid he would be jailed and  2 sentenced to hang so he gave his territory  3 to our maternal grandmother.  On our culture  4 we call it Siisxw (territory settlement for  5 taking a life).  I was three years old at  6 the time (the time of the event would be  7 about 1914).  My mother was found in the  8 river near Glen Vowell.  I want to tell this  9 as some people are saying we are just 'Um  10 nig woo txw' (privilege granted to children  11 of father).  As far as we are concerned the  12 territory is ours as settlement for the loss  13 of our mother.  Our father told us it was  14 ours, that is Chris and I.  Apparently he  15 left a will saying so.  There's a lot of  16 bickering about the land among our relations  17 and some of the Lax Seel people, they all  18 want the land.  I don't pay any attention to  19 them.  Things have to stay as they are."  20  21 A   I remember.  22 Q   And that is still your understanding about the  23 territory at Ironsides Creek today?  24 A   I guess you'd say this was sort of done undercover.  25 It wasn't told to anyone except to my grandmother.  26 MS. SIGURDSON:  Thank you.  Those are all my questions.  27 THE COURT:  Are you tendering this document, Miss Sigurdson?  28 MS. SIGURDSON:  Yes, I would, my lord.  2 9 THE COURT:  What do you say, Mr. Grant?  30 MR. GRANT:  Well, just if I could have it marked as an exhibit  31 for identification right now.  That was what we dealt  32 with.  33 THE COURT:  My thought would be only the first paragraph would  34 go in, but if it can be marked for identification.  35 MR. GRANT:  Maybe that's what I would like to have a chance to  36 consider.  37 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  We'll mark the whole thing for now  38 as the next exhibit for identification.  What number  39 is that, please?  40 THE REGISTRAR:  830.  41 THE COURT:  Thank you.  42  43 (EXHIBIT 830 FOR IDENTIFICATION:  One page document of  44 interview with Jeffrey Harris)  45  4 6 RE-EXAMINATION BY MR. GRANT:  47 Q   Mr. Harris, I just have a few questions arising out of 10087  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1 the questions of Mr. Macaulay and Miss Sigurdson.  2 Firstly, I'd like to ask you about the last  3 question of Ms. Sigurdson.  Was this decision of your  4 father ever announced at a feast about the Ironside  5 territory?  6 A   Yes.  The Lax Seel know about it, and some of the  7 people, and all my children.  8 Q   Do you know if it was announced in the feast hall  9 though?  10 A   No, because it wasn't actually approved in the  11 smokehouse -- smokehouse.  Feast hall.  I'm sorry.  12 Q   You were talking about Ironside Creek when Mr.  13 Macaulay was questioning you and you referred to it  14 from my notes Xsi wii luu wax.  What does Xsi wii luu  15 wax mean?  I would ask that of madam translator.  It's  16 not necessary if you can translate the word Xsi wii  17 luu wax?  18 A  When we say Xsi that means where the creek comes out.  19 And then the creek comes -- I don't know how to  20 explain that, but it's sort of slanted in like this.  21 Q   Like a broad gulley your hands are indicating?  22 A  And that is why it's called Xsi wii luu wax.  It comes  23 from a little summit that's right beside the Baldy  24 Mountain.  25 THE COURT:  How are you spelling Xsi wii luu wax, please?  26 MR. GRANT:  I think it was X-S-U, one word, W-I-I-L-U-U-X-W-A-X.  27 THE INTERPRETER:  He was just telling me again how —  2 8 MR. GRANT:  29 Q   You were asked about cutting poles with Joshua  30 Campbell across from Hazelton.  Did Joshua Campbell  31 hold a chief's name?  32 A   I'm not sure whether Tom Campbell was still alive at  33 the time, but I know that Joshua took the name after  34 he died.  35 Q   Do you recall what name it was that Tom Campbell had  36 and then Joshua?  37 A   I know that Tom Campbell held two names and one went  38 to Joshua when he died and the other one went to Ben  39 Mackenzie, but I can't remember for sure which one,  40 Luutkudziiwas or Xsimootsin.  41 Q   Luutkudziiwas or Xsimootsin?  42 THE INTERPRETER:  Yes, that's what he said.  4 3 MR. GRANT:  44 Q   And one of those -- just to be clear, your answer was  45 Tom Campbell held both of those names and one of them  46 went to Ben Mackenzie and the other to Joshua  47 Campbell; is that right? 100?  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1  A  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  7  8  Q  9  10  11  12  13  A  14  15  Q  16  A  17  Q  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  30  31  A  32  33  34  35  Q  36  A  37  38  39  Q  40  THE  COURT  41  A  42  MR.  GRANT  43  THE  COURT  44  A  45  THE  COURT  46  A  47  THE  COURT  Right.  And when you were cutting poles across from Hazelton  do you know whose territory that was that you were on,  which chief?  It was their own territory.  Joshua's parents lived  there at Witseeyoops (phonetic), and they used to do  trapping up there.  You were asked a question about who buried Amagyet or  who was -- who took -- I think that's the wrong way of  saying it.  Who took responsibility for Amagyet when his --  when Percy Wilson died?  His own house, but Jimmy Angus took on all the  responsibilities.  And what chief's name is Jimmy Angus?  Wii Eelast.  Okay.  And then you were asked a question which you  may -- I'm concerned you may not have understood it,  because it was partly explained after you -- after  translation started.  You were asked is there a head  wolf chief, and then in response while it was  translated I asked of what to Mr. Macaulay and he said  of the Gitksan, and your answer was Wii Eelast.  I'd  like to ask you this; is there one wolf chief who's  the head of all of the Gitksan wolves of all the  villages?  The one that Eva has, Kliiyemlaxhaa.  Is that -- is Kliiyemlaxhaa the head chief of the  wolves for Kitwanga, Kitsegukla, Gitanmaax, Kispiox,  Kuldo and Kisgegas?  The way it is in Kispiox the head chief for the Lax  Gibuu is Kliiyemlaxhaa, and that's Eva Samson.  For  the Lax Seel it's Kenny Muldoe, Delgamuukw, and for  the Gisgaast it's Geel, Walter Harris.  And are those head chiefs just for Kispiox?  For those houses, yes.  That's -- I just know of  Kispiox for sure, but I am not exactly sure about the  other villages.  Okay.  :  Who was the head chief for the Gisgaast?  Geel.  :  Geel.  :  Geel.  And for the wolves?  For the wolves it's Eva Samson.  :  And that's —  Kliiyemlaxhaa.  :  Yes.  Kliiyemlaxhaa.  Thank you. 10089  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  1  MR.  GRANT  2  Q  3  4  5  A  6  THE  COURT  7  8  A  9  THE  COURT  10  11  MR.  GRANT  12  13  14  15  THE  COURT  16  17  18  MR.  MACAU  19  20  THE  COURT  21  MR.  GRANT  22  23  24  25  26  27  THE  COURT  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  MR.  GRANT  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  40  THE  COURT  41  A  42  43  THE  COURT  44  45  A  46  THE  COURT  47  So these -- just to be clear on what you're saying, is  it right these are the head chiefs of these clans in  Kispiox, but not for the other villages?  Yes, that's right.  :  Well, where is Wii Eelast the head chief of the  wolves?  Wii Eelast comes from Kispiox.  :  From Kispiox.  Then we have got two head chiefs for  the wolf for Kispiox.  :  You've hit the nail on the head.  That's what I  thought was the misunderstanding, because my friend  added that comment while the translation was going on  and he had asked who had taken charge for Amagyet.  :  Earlier he was asked, I think, who was the head  chief for the wolf clan.  I'm sure he was.  Mr.  Macaulay will remember better than I will.  EAY:  I did ask that question, and I thought the answer  was Wii Eelast.  :  Yes, I'm sure it was.  :  That's right.  What I'm saying, my lord, is I said  for what, and my friend said to me for the Gitksan in  that question.  The head chief for all of the wolf  clan for all of the Gitksan, but I don't think the  entire question was put to the witness.  Just before  that he asked who took responsibility for Amagyet.  :  Oh, yes.  This was sometime ago.  Well, I think the  evidence will show now that the witness has given two  names of the head chief of the wolf clan for Kispiox.  I think he has Wii Eelast and he has said  Kliiyemlaxhaa.  Now, I may be wrong, but I think he  has given both those names and given them both the  same title.  :  If I can ask just one more question just to --.  Is there more than one head chief for the wolf clan of  Kispiox?  When I could first remember I was always told that the  Lax Gibuu or wolf clan had only one chief, head chief,  and that was Kliiyemlaxhaa.  :  All right.  Same way with Lax Seel, that's Delgamuukw, and the  Gisgaast that's Geel.  :  All right.  So Wii Eelast is not the head chief of  the wolf clan at Kispiox?  No.  :  All right.  Thank you.  Sorry.  Mr. Grant. 10090  J. Harris (for the Plfs.)  Re-exam by Mr. Grant  Proceedings  What house is your wife from, or who is the head chief  of her house?  Emma comes from -- really comes from Gitanmaax, and  she comes from the House of Xsimootsin, and I think  that's Lester now.  I'm sorry.  Xsimootsin.  Lester something at the end.  I think that's Lester now.  I think it's Lester now.  Do you know Lester's last name?  Moore.  Wait, but she was adopted by John Brown's wife  Martha, and she was -- John Brown's wife adopted her  because she lived out in Kispiox, and I married her,  and she moved into Ma'uus' house.  You were asked by Mr. Macaulay if you knew -- if your  grandmother was around -- was alive when there were  raids between the Kuldo people and the Nisga'a people  and you said that -- my recollection or my note of  your evidence was that this happened before her time.  Without you describing those histories do you know the  histories of the wars between the Kuldo people and the  Nisga'a people?  You don't have to tell them to us  now, but I just want to know if you know them.  I know it when we were young we used to sit by the  fire and they would tell it to us, and we know it just  like we do the palms of our hands.  You also said, and my note is, that the other thing  she told me was the first time she saw a white person.  Was your grandmother alive the first time the people  of Kuldo saw a white person?  And when -- when they first -- when the white man  first came she was amongst the people that saw him for  the first time, and she would always mention the time  of the eclipse of the sun, and that was when she first  reached womanhood.  :  Those are all my questions on re-direct.  :  Thank you.  Just before we adjourn can somebody tell  me who -- who's Violet Smith?  :  Violet Smith was a person who was -- did some  interviews.  This would come within the -- she is a  Gitksan woman who was employed and did some research.  She did a few interviews, although most of her  research or her work was not in adaawk -- was not  actually doing interviews.  :  All right.  Thank you.  The witness is excused.  1  MR.  GRANT  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  7  THE  COURT  8  MR.  GRANT  9  THE  COURT  10  MR.  GRANT  11  A  12  Q  13  A  14  15  16  17  Q  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  A  27  28  29  Q  30  31  32  33  A  34  35  36  37  38  MR.  GRANT  39  THE  COURT  40  41  MR.  GRANT  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  COURT 10091  Proceedings  1 (WITNESS ASIDE)  2  3 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Where are we now?  4 MR. GRANT:  I wish we were somewhere else.  5 THE COURT:  Somewhere else.  6 MR. GRANT:  Somewhere else.  That's right.  Well, on a positive  7 note Ms. Koenigsberg proposed before noon, and both  8 Mr. Rush and myself and Ms. Koenigsberg and everybody  9 else was tied up, but counsel are going to meet now to  10 see what we can do to rehabilitate the schedule.  I  11 don't know whether your lordship was going to be  12 leaving.  I think -- I'm not certain if it would be  13 necessary, but it may well be given it would impact --  14 I think inevitably it's going to impact on the in  15 court schedule, on the order, that we should possibly  16 come back and report to you.  I'm very concerned  17 about -- the plaintiffs' counsel are generally  18 concerned about having witnesses lapsing over part way  19 through cross-examinations.  We don't want to  20 leap-frog if we can avoid it.  21 THE COURT:  You're going to finish -- I've forgotten the name.  22 MR. GRANT:  Roy Morris tomorrow morning at 8:30 to ten o'clock  23 we were going to finish him.  24 THE COURT:  Will that not bring us up to schedule?  25 MR. GRANT:  No.  Mary Joseph was -- this witness was supposed to  26 commence and be completed this morning, and Miss Mary  27 Joseph was to be heard in the courtroom this  28 afternoon.  By the time it became apparent she was  29 going to be quite late she had been waiting pretty  30 well all day and was tired.  31 THE COURT:  If it's convenient I can stay here for awhile if you  32 want me to.  33 MR. GRANT:  I think that might be worth it.  34 THE COURT:  All right.  I'll be in my chambers.  35 MR. GRANT:  Possibly I think we can meet now and probably within  36 the next 20 minutes we could probably sort out --  37 MS. SIGURDSON:  I raise one matter before you leave.  It is  38 about the Roy Morris saga.  You kindly offered this  39 morning to hear the -- preside over the completion of  40 the Roy Morris examination that's scheduled for 8:30  41 tomorrow.  We would ask that the cross-examination of  42 Mr. Morris move into court if that is still suitable  43 to your lordship.  44 MR. GRANT:  Well, that's something I would like to wait until we  45 deal with the scheduling, 'cause I think we have -- we  46 have an objective of trying to have all of Robert  47 Jackson completed tomorrow. 10092  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  COURT  GRANT  THE COURT  MR.  THE  GRANT  COURT  MR. GRANT  THE  THE  COURT  Yes.  Before your lordship.  I think Miss Sigurdson is talking about 8:30.  We anticipate an evening session before your  lordship tomorrow evening as well.  Yes.  The only -- I'd like to consider that and come back  to you.  Yes.  I think that I would only -- I would only  preside, if I can use that somewhat ostentatious word,  to complete Roy Morris with consent of both parties.  You're starting on a different forum.  I wouldn't  consider that without consent.  Yes.  I would like to consider that.  I'll wait in my chambers until 5:30.  If I haven't  heard from counsel --  Maybe we can advise through madam registrar about  this .  Thank you.  REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein to the best of my  skill and ability.  Peri McHale, Official Reporter  UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.


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