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Delgamuukw Trial Transcripts

[Proceedings of the Supreme Court of British Columbia 1988-06-28] British Columbia. Supreme Court Jun 28, 1988

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 7322  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Discussion  1 Vancouver, B.C.  2 2 8 June 198 8  3  4 (PROCEEDINGS RECONVENED AT 10:00 A.M.)  5  6 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  In the Supreme Court of British  7 Columbia, this Tuesday, June 28, 1988.  8  9 (OTHER MATTERS DEALT WITH)  10  11 THE REGISTRAR:  Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty the Queen at bar.  12 MR .GOLDIE:  My lord, at the conclusion yesterday, I had made  13 reference for request that there be produced the  14 original of the National Topographic Series Map that  15 the witness had referred to at page 7319.  That's  16 the page at which your lordship asked for the  17 description of the map, and I asked for the  18 original, and there was some discussion as between  19 my friend and myself with respect to it.  20 I can enlarge upon that that my request is for  21 the original of all of the topographic series maps  22 which the witness has used in the course of his  23 preparation of his evidence and the reason I want  24 the originals is that the copies of some of them,  25 not all of them because we haven't received copies  26 of all of them, but the copies we have received of  27 some of them are such that some of the writing on  28 them is quite illegible.  29 THE REGISTRAR:  I caution the witness you are still under oath.  30 MR. GRANT:  My lord, I have been in the process of dealing with  31 these maps that my friend is referring to.  Maybe I  32 can assist.  I have arranged, because of Friday's  33 request, for these maps to be -- Mr. Goldie, for  34 these maps to be colour duplicated -- or Thursday's  35 request it may have been, and there has been -- I'd  36 hoped to have them by Friday noon.  They are now  37 back but they are in pieces and right now are being  38 pieced together and, in order to piece them  39 together, the originals have to be there.  So the  40 copies that are colour reproductions and I am hoping  41 that they will be finished by early this afternoon  42 and a complete set of them will be provided pursuant  43 to Mr. Goldie's request yesterday which, on my quick  44 review this morning, they were just delivered this  45 morning before court, but in pieces.  It appears  46 that they -- the legibility problems that he's  47 referred to are overcome by this form of 7323  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Discussion  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  reproduction, so that they would be available this  afternoon.  THE COURT:  And they are here in town?  MR. GRANT:  They are in town but the persons that are putting  them together have to have the original in order to  put them together.  They are doing that right now.  THE COURT:  There is no reason why Mr. Goldie cannot inspect the  originals if he wishes?  MR. GRANT:  Oh, at the same time, there is absolutely no problem  with that.  MR .GOLDIE:  I wasn't requesting copies, I was requesting  production in court of the originals.  MR. GRANT:  Well, and Thursday of last week, there was reference  to these maps, and I haven't got transcript  reference, but Mr. Goldie did request copies of  these maps at that time and that's what we are --  and so pursuant to that request, we are providing  him copies and we will --  THE COURT:  It appears that Mr. Goldie this morning is asking  for inspection of the originals.  You say there is  no difficulty in that regard.  It is a question of timing because I'd like the  person to finish piecing them together.  Your lordship will appreciate that I want the  production in court in case I come to the conclusion  that there is a necessity of using the original and  the examination.  Yes.  All right, thank you.  Mr. Rush.  Yes.  Mr. Sterritt, we concluded the days' evidence  by marking a document that's entitled the Data  Sheets Topographic Survey, it is Exhibit 652.  You  also indicated in your evidence that in addition to  using that document just found at tab 58 of volume 2  of your document book, you also used later in time  another document which is a Summary Data Sheet at  tab 59 called a Land Use Reference Data.  Now, I  wonder if you'd look to that tab, please.  MR. GOLDIE:  My lord, before my friend continues with this, it  was my understanding that we would deal with the  question of Mr. Sterritt's qualifications, and I  think it would be desirable to do that before he  proceeds any further, that there is a question that  is left in limbo at this stage and that is the  capacity in which he is giving this evidence.  And  my friend introduced this examination yesterday by  saying, I want now to turn to the methodology of  your -- of what you have done.  This is at page 7311  MR.  MR.  THE  MR.  GRANT:  GOLDIE  COURT:  RUSH: 7324  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Discussion  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  line 32:  "Mr. Sterritt, I would like now to turn your  mind to the methodology used by you in the  gathering of information".  And then when he tendered Exhibit 652, he said, I  want that -- I tender that for the truth of the  matter stated.  Now, clearly, the entries on that particular form  are hearsay; clearly they reflect Mr. Sterritt's  opinion of what he has been told, the distillation  of what he's been told.  There is a question now as  to the status of that document which is affected by  whatever capacity he is giving his evidence today.  Now, when my friend adjourned on Friday, he said I  want to give consideration to whether we will call  Mr. Sterritt as an expert and he advised your  lordship yesterday he was calling him as an expert.  And it has always been my understanding that we  would deal with the question of his status and the  degree to which he is being qualified as an expert,  not the capacity, but the extent to which he is to  do things as an expert should be resolved before he  continues his evidence, my lord.  Mr. Rush?  Well, my lord, I see no -- it is true that we are  going to seek to qualify Mr. Sterritt as an expert.  I don't necessarily feel that this is the right time  to do that.  The evidence that's being led now, if  your lordship finds that there isn't a sufficient  basis for expertise, I would lead anyway.  And you  may very well do it from a different light.  But I  intend to lead this evidence whether he is qualified  or not, and I do -- I will be asking your lordship  to qualify Mr. Sterritt and I had intended to -- I  had hoped to be able to be in a position to do that  now.  I am not quite in a position to do that.  There are some other preparations that we are making  with regard to the area of expertise that Mr.  Sterritt will speak to and I will do that when  that's completed.  I didn't give you an opportunity, Mr. Macaulay, to  make a submission on Mr. Goldie's motion.  MR. MACAULAY:  I have no submission to make.  THE COURT:  All right.  Well, I think that it might be  convenient to get this question of status out of the  THE COURT  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT: 7325  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Ruling by the Court  In chief by Mr. Rush  way, but I am not disposed to interfere with Mr.  Rush's conduct of the examination in chief.  He  tells me he is going to be coming to it I gather  shortly.  It will probably be best if I leave the  timing of the qualifications he is tendering of this  expert to a certain length of time.  I think there  is a problem about the effect of the evidence  exemplified perhaps not quite clearly in the last  exhibit yesterday afternoon, but I am not going to  require Mr. Rush to tender the witness at this  moment.  I am going to allow you to proceed.  EXAMINATION IN CHIEF CONTINUED BY MR. RUSH:  Q    Now, Mr. Sterritt, the Land Use Reference Summary  sheet, is one such reference data sheet found at tab  59?  Yes, it is.  Can you just describe what this indicates?  Once again, the identification of the data sheet  with a particular map name and national topographic  series number appears on the top and the map scale  used.  There would be a number of sheets and they  vary in number according to the amount of detail on  a given map sheet, a number of sheets that would  appear with each map and they would have a sequence  of numbers from one on up to perhaps as high as 300.  There is a reference number column on the left-hand  side, it is the first column.  Is that the  chronology of the numbers?  Yes.  And then the other columns,  Feature; Simoogit, meaning chief;  clan, such as Fireweed, and so on.  Tsap referring to village.  Going back to the  topographic feature, I differentiated between the  Gitksan name for the topographic feature and the  type of feature that it was.  So in the first -- in  reference number 01, we have the name Xsaladamus  which is a creek.  It is owned by the chief.  Well, excuse me.  Just to put things on a formal  basis, I of course object to that evidence.  Yes.  What's Xsaladamus?  That's X-s-a-1-a-d-a-m-u-s.  What does that refer to in your understanding?  Xsaladamus is a creek that flows east into the  Skeena, north of Gowahl mihle or Old Kuldo.  Gitludahl, Pete Muldoe, referred to this creek in  A  Topographic  'Pdeek, meaning  And then Gal  MR. GOLDIE:  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  Q  A 7326  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 his evidence as being the -- within the territory of  2 Wiigyet, who is Kisgagas or Fireweed from the  3 village of Kisgagas.  4 Q    Now, all right.  And is each of the names identified  5 apparently as a Gitksan name?  Are those names of  6 topographic features as they run down from reference  7 number 1 through to 23?  8 A    Yes, they are.  9 Q    And in some cases, I see for example under number  10 14, you indicate boundary, east; area, west, or a  11 question mark under the column Simoogit, and why did  12 you place those references in those columns?  13 A    Well, Tas lax wii yip is a ridge -- is a timber  14 ridge between Gwinageese River which flows north  15 into the Nass and the Nass River which loops around  16 and flows parallel to Gwinageese, Gwinageese River.  17 The ridge is one that we flew over in the overview  18 when we flew from Meziadan around to Kuldo.  It is a  19 ridge that is very near Swan Lake.  And the next  20 column is boundary area, and on the east side, there  21 is a question mark.  On the west side is Neek't  22 which is -- who's from the House of Delgamuukw, and  23 so coming across into the clan or 'Pdeek, then there  24 is a question mark, and then underneath is Lax seel.  25 The check mark is for Lax seel up above, and then  26 Kitwancool is the -- goes along with the boundary on  27 the east side, and the check mark is for Kispiox up  28 above.  So this indicates a boundary area.  2 9 Q    All right.  30 A   And the particular reason that this one is here is  31 because of item number 2, 'Tsaphl gwiikw which is  32 Groundhog Mountain on the Bowser Lake, map 16.  It  33 belongs to Geel from Kispiox, and that's a Gisgaast,  34 and the village is indicated there in the last  35 column.  36 Q    You said item number 2?  37 A    22 I said.  38 Q    22, I am sorry.  Now, were these summary sheets  39 cross-referenced to anything?  40 A    Well, these summary sheets were cross-referenced to  41 the map sheet, Bowser Lake, and appeared -- also  42 appeared within the field notes or original source  43 of entry that I had.  44 Q    All right.  And where did the information that's on  45 this summary sheet come from?  46 A    It came from -- from my field notes, from journals,  47 from hip pocket notes, and sometimes directly. 7327  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  Q  7  8  9  A  10  Q  11  12  13  A  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  MR.  RUSH:  22  23  24  THE  COURT  25  26  MR.  RUSH:  27  28  THE  COURT  29  MR.  RUSH:  30  Q  31  32  A  33  34  35  36  37  Q  38  A  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  And these hip pocket --  Not all of this would necessarily appear in a field  book.  Someone might inform me and I would go  directly -- I might also make a direct entry onto  one of these forms.  Now, the recordings that you made in the journals,  field books and on the pieces of paper and  information, where did that information come from?  Came from the hereditary chiefs.  This Reference Data Sheet summary doesn't contain  the name of the informant.  There is no column as in  the previous exhibit.  Can you explain that?  There simply wasn't space.  I have my field books  and other original sources.  I did try to keep it up  on the other form but, as I mentioned already, it  became too large a burden with all the other duties  that I had.  I couldn't keep up to the single sheets  and so my original notes were the -- indicate where  the informant or hereditary chief who provided  information.  All right.  Are you able to say about how many of  these summary sheets that you have prepared in this  form?  I am sorry, when you say summary sheets, you mean  documents such as tab 59?  Yes.  He's referred this as a summary sheet but it is  in fact -- no.  Land Use Reference Sheet.  Yes.  It is entitled Land Use Reference Data, but he  has referred to it as a summary sheet.  I think to the point that I stopped using these, I  had entered somewhere in the neighbourhood of 600  features and, if you divided that by 23, you would  come up with roughly the number.  It is in the  neighbourhood of that.  All right.  Did others use these?  Yes.  After I had turned them over to Marvin George,  he entered.  He tried to keep a running sequence, so  he would -- with the topographic maps that  accompanied these, he would enter -- he would enter  it in and keep the chronological sequence or  numerical sequence running and so there would be  entries by him; there are some by Glen Williams and  Alfred Joseph and others also.  And Alfred Joseph  and Leonard George also used them.  You indicated that you used these Land Use Reference 732?  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  Data sheets for a period of time.  How long have you  used these?  A   As I recall, 1982 or 1983, I developed this format  and used them for several years but then when I  turned them -- I was very busy with my other duties  and I turned them over to Marvin.  I kept them up to  a certain extent but it was Marvin who kept them up  from information I provided him.  So you used these what, for several years?  Several years, yes.  After 1982 or '83?  Yes.  The information on this sheet, Mr. Sterritt, was it  verified or corroborated through any other sources?  Yes.  I tried to cross-reference it with other  informants to the degree that was possible at the  time.  But in terms of verification, this is an  information gathering period and the verification of  location and designation according to chief, clan or  village occurred from 1986 on.  Q    So there was a verification process from 1986  forward?  A    Well, I attempted as much as I could at the time to  verify but an intense verification process occurred  from the beginning in 1986 and, in particular, when  we -- when the court recommended another way of  dealing with the boundaries of the hereditary  chiefs, the territories of the hereditary chiefs,  and we moved to the affidavit format.  Going to be asking, my lord, that this Land Use  Reference Data sheet in tab 59 be marked as an  exhibit?  My lord, I object to that.  And I object to it on  the basis that it is not evidence against the  Province; it's never been communicated to the  Province in any way, shape or form; it is totally  hearsay; and, if it is tendered for the purpose of  indicating methodology, then I think a blank sheet  should be tendered until this witness' status is  clarified.  THE COURT:  I think it can be marked as — I think as Exhibit  653 for Identification only and that can be spoken  to again when the matter of the witness's status is  clarified.  MR. RUSH:  MR. GOLDIE:  (EXHIBIT 653 FOR IDENT.  LAND USE REFERENCE DATA  SHEET - TAB 59) 7329  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR. GOLDIE:  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  A  Q  A  Q  A  I would also ask for production of the balance of  these sheets, my lord, that they -- at least to my  knowledge, the only sheets that we have -- of this  kind are found in a book which purports to be the  basis upon which Geel's territory was developed and  Lucy Namox's territory, and I asked for that during  Mr. Sterritt's examination for discovery but we have  not had the production of the original sheets.  When  I say original sheets, we have not -- there has not  been listed so far as I am aware nor has there been  produced sheets other than what are found in that  book which consist of this one and one more.  It was  numbers 24 to 46 in that one.  There may be one more  in the Lucy Namox, but so far as the two or 300 that  Mr. Sterritt has referred, I'd ask for those to be  produced.  Any difficulty with that, Mr. Rush?  No.  I calculate there would be about 25 or 30.  That's correct.  Thank you.  Mr. Sterritt, what was the reason that you  accumulated the information as you did in this form?  It was to connect topographic features of -- a  hereditary chief would refer to a place name and a  feature and it was to connect those features with  the house, the clan, the village as much as possible  and the type of feature, and to provide a record of  those features throughout the Gitksan and  Wet'suwet'en territory.  All right.  Now, you've made mention of your field  books.  Now, you kept information received from the  hereditary chiefs in a field book, did you?  Yes, I did.  And how did you record it in there?  And I take it,  perhaps before I ask that question, you recorded  this information and field books over a period of  time; is that right?  Yes.  And is the way that you have recorded the  information in the field books the same over that  period of time or have they changed?  It is basically the same.  It's -- it reflects notes  that I took of information or conversations with a  hereditary chief.  Okay.  Now, can you just tell his lordship how you  used the field books in order to keep notes of your 7330  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 discussions with hereditary chiefs?  What were the  2 situations in which you used that as a means of  3 recording that information?  4 A    To begin with, I attended feasts and, at the feasts,  5 the hereditary chiefs sitting near me would talk to  6 me about place names that they knew or that they --  7 that were part of their territory.  They --  8 Gitludahl, Pete Muldoe in particular, spent a lot of  9 time describing the Wiigyet territories to me in the  10 feast and those are during the course of the feast  11 as we sat at the table, and that is reflected in my  12 notebooks.  From time to time, I might ask a  13 question and Pete would direct me to someone or Pete  14 would go and talk to another person and that  15 individual might call me to their table or come over  16 and sit down or confirm that Pete was inquiring  17 about.  18 Q    Excuse me.  Were these informal discussions during  19 the course of a feast?  20 A    Yes.  They were -- I was there to attend the feasts,  21 to observe the business that was being conducted,  22 and it wasn't just territorial information that I  23 was accumulating in the notebook.  I also recorded  24 feast information, the business that was being  25 conducted in the feast, names that were being  26 transferred on to young people or to new hereditary  27 chiefs, or to members of the house.  I recorded  28 the -- if there were technical terms for different  29 aspects of the feast that -- that I was informed  30 about by the people who I sat with, I would record  31 that.  I also, as the house that was putting on the  32 feast, contributed their goods, their Hawaal, or  33 their money to the feast.  I kept track of their  34 Indian names as well as the amounts that they  35 contributed, and sometimes the procedure was moving  36 too fast and I could -- they were blanks but  37 nevertheless the amounts were recorded.  I tried to  38 keep track of the -- the extent of the contribution  39 of a house and their relatives.  40 Q    What other situations apart from the feast context  41 did you make recordings in the field books?  42 A    I -- during the helicopter flights, I kept track of  43 information in the field book.  I met with  44 hereditary chiefs on evenings or on weekends and I  45 kept track of information during those discussions.  46 If I travelled to a meeting and a hereditary chief  47 accompanied me and pointed out a mountain or a creek 7331  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  THE COURT:  THE WITNESS  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  A  Q  A  or point, I kept track even if it was one bit of  information.  I tried to keep in there.  Excuse me, Mr. Rush.  Mr. Sterritt, you mentioned a  few moments ago that you talked to hereditary chiefs  at feasts and you said particularly Pete Muldoe and  then you said another name.  :  Gitludahl.  You said both names?  :  Yes, his Indian name.  Thank you.  Sorry, Mr. Rush.  Yes.  What's the nature of the recordings that you  made?  What was the content of the feast book --  excuse me, the field book?  The main information is place names, topographic  features, where -- where it was indicated boundary  information, sometimes to explain the territorial  information I was getting.  The hereditary chief  would also tell me something about the history of  that territory, of that -- or of that house, and it  would be reflected in my notes in a summary format  or, in the case of David Gunanoot, to the extent  that I could keep up to him, it is reflected in  detail.  And sometimes that information would be  contained in detail if I could keep up to the  information.  Did you sometimes make recordings after you had been  given the information?  Yes.  I -- there are situations where I didn't have  my field books with me and information was  transferred or given to me and I -- as soon as I  could, I got to my field book and entered it, and  there is information also that was relayed to me  that -- that had I simply stored in my mind, you  know -- not a hundred percent of the information is  in my field books.  Now, had you said that sometimes when you didn't  have your field books with you, did you make a  practise of trying to keep them with you at most  times?  Yes, I did.  And apart from recording of names and boundaries,  places, detail about the ownership of the territory,  did you keep other information pertaining to other  subjects of the Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en culture?  Yes, I did.  Pete Muldoe and his sister Elsie Waiget  sat beside me and they -- 7332  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  A  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  MR. RUSH:  ;  13  14  THE SPELLER  15  MR. RUSH:  16  Q  17  18  A  19  20  21  Q  22  23  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  Q  36  37  A  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Sat beside you where?  She sat right beside me in the feast hall and they  provided information about the names of insects,  about plants, about animals and the different stages  or names for different stages of animal's growth,  for example, the beaver or moose or mountain goat.  Other persons told me about the way that you Sisatxw  or prepare yourself for hunting or for difficult  undertaking such as hunting or battle or even for  situations like when we entered into discussions in  the Constitutional Conference.  Sisatxw?  Just excuse me, Miss Howard, I wonder if  you have a spelling for that, please?  :  S-i-s-a-t-x-w.  Now, was there other information of that kind or  order that you kept in the field books?  Yes.  The notebooks were a catch-all for information  that was being transferred to me by the hereditary  chiefs.  Now, was there other ways in which you recorded  information passed on to you from the hereditary  chiefs about boundaries, place names or territories?  Yes.  Apart from the field ones that you have mentioned?  Yes.  I also began a verification process of place  names and boundaries and ownership and I did that on  loose-leaf paper which I either sat down with the  hereditary chief and obtained further information.  I also found it, because of the time constraints and  the demands of the court, important to make phone  calls and get information and perhaps make repeated  phone calls in a given day as I verified  information.  Okay.  Did you also use a means of recording  information described as a journal of some kind?  Yes.  That was earlier.  In the mid 70's, I kept a  journal in an eight and a half by eleven size format  in which I recorded almost any information that was  being passed along to me by my uncle or my father or  David Gunanoot or other hereditary chiefs, and that  format, that included territorial information.  It  included -- for example, my uncle taught me how to  make snow-shoes in the 70's and I kept a very  detailed log of how that is done with diagrams and  sketches and the technical Gitksan names for each  stage of preparing snow-shoes and for the parts of 7333  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 the snow-shoe.  2 Q    All right.  You said that this type of information  3 and other information was recorded in these journals  4 in the mid 70's.  Perhaps I have asked you about  5 this somewhat out of sequence.  Did you keep these  6 journals prior to the field books at the -- at the  7 same time or at what time in relation to your  8 recordings in the field books?  9 A    The journals were prior to the field books.  10 Q    And you said that it was later then that you  11 recorded information on loose-leaf paper?  12 A    Yes.  13 Q    Is that right?  14 A    That was after -- that was a process later than the  15 field books or -- well, it became simultaneous to a  16 certain extent with field books but it was a part of  17 the verification process.  When I say simultaneous,  18 I mean I still keep my field books and I also do the  19 loose-leaf notes.  20 Q    All right.  Now, you have mentioned your -- the heli  21 flights and you have indicated that you made field  22 trips and there were recordings that you made during  23 the course of these field trips and, in some cases,  24 you have indicated that these recordings were made  25 in your field books.  Did you keep video tapes of --  26 of your field trips or was that another way of  27 recording information?  28 A    When we did the first helicopter field trips, we  29 tried to use videos.  The first -- the first two or  30 three trips we did videos and it was not a  31 successful way of recording information.  32 Q    What was the idea behind the use of the video?  33 A    Well, one of the first ideas we had was we would  34 keep a continuous running sequence of video shots as  35 we flew to a location with the helicopter, and that  36 barely worked at all because of the vibration of the  37 helicopter, the noise within the helicopter which we  38 couldn't filter out.  Then also when we land at a  39 site, we did panoramic views of sites.  40 Q    Now, when you say we, who do you mean?  41 A    Well, in this case, it was -- the first flight was  42 to a mountain ridge near Tsaa Kee Aas which is  43 French Peak on the map.  It is between -- it is on  44 the edge of our territory near Babine Lake.  45 Q    It is called Tsaa Kee Aas?  4 6 A    Tsaa Kee Aas, yes.  And we landed there and we did a  47 panoramic view of basically 360 degrees of the 7334  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  Q  3  A  4  5  MR.  RUSH:  6  7  8  MR.  GOLDIE:  9  10  11  12  13  14  MR.  RUSH:  15  16  17  18  THE  COURT:  19  THE  WITNESS  20  THE  COURT:  21  22  MR.  GOLDIE:  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  THE  COURT:  33  MR.  GOLDIE:  34  THE  COURT:  35  36  37  MR.  GOLDIE:  38  THE  COURT:  39  40  41  MR.  GOLDIE:  42  43  MR.  RUSH:  44  THE  COURT:  45  46  MR.  GOLDIE:  47  MR.  RUSH:  features around us.  Would you just pause there?  What flight was that?  That was in either June -- it was around June 22,  1983.  All right.  And is that a place where you passed by  or landed during the course of the view that was  taken?  Well, I am sorry, the difficulty with the repeated  references to the view, it may be of assistance to  your lordship, but I think it is contrary to the  intention of that.  That should be incorporated in  the evidence which apparently is going to be relied  upon as proof of title.  More for the purpose of citing your lordship rather  than for the concerns my friend expressed.  I think  it is a convenient way for your lordship to find a  location, a feature.  We didn't land at French Creek.  :  No, we didn't.  We wanted to, but we didn't.  I am not sure that I  have the import of your objection, Mr. Goldie.  Well, it is -- as I say, until the status of Mr.  Sterritt is settled, I am assuming that at some  point all of this evidence your lordship is going to  be asked to accept as proof of title and when the  witness says, as we flew over our territory or we  flew to a certain feature which he later identifies  or previously identified as within the territory, he  is incorporating that particular -- he is  incorporating the identification which took place on  the view as part of his evidence.  My submission --  Of his view?  And of your lordship's view.  As I understand the evidence, the witness is now  telling us about a field trip he made by helicopter  to French Creek on June 22, 1983.  Yes.  And explaining why it was found that video  recording, particularly panoramic views from  landings, were not successful.  And the reference to the view taken by the court is  completely irrelevant.  Well, I don't agree.  I wasn't sure that he mentioned -- did he mention  the view taken by the court?  I understood him to do so.  I asked him about it.  I asked him if there was a 7335  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT:  RUSH:  COURT:  MR. GOLDIE  THE  MR.  THE  COURT:  GOLDIE  COURT:  MR.  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  relationship of where that place was and of the view  in order to assist your lordship about --  Yes, all right.  -- about a place.  As I take the evidence now, all the witness is doing  is giving the evidence of the method used to collect  information upon which I assume an opinion will  later be expressed.  That's right.  And, in my view, there is that over-used word, I  don't think that's objectionable.  :  No, I -- it doesn't matter where it was proven that  the system of taking evidence was found to be  objectionable.  It is irrelevant to try and tie that  in to a particular place that is in issue in this  lawsuit.  I understood he was going to give me an example of  why panoramic videos were not successful.  :  He was but then he was asked to tie that into the  view taken by the court.  As Mr. Rush said, he is telling me where this  attempt was made and citing me for -- I wouldn't  want to use that term too often -- affixing me in a  particular location.  I think you can proceed, Mr.  Rush.  Mr. Sterritt, when you landed at certain points  along the line of your field trip, on those  occasions and take for example the one on June 22,  1983, did you utilize the video tape as a way of  attempting to record information?  Yes.  Were there problems involved in that?  Yes.  The problems -- there were several problems.  The video -- the quality of the camera and the  lenses that we had was not sufficient to cut through  the haze so that features at a distance just didn't  appear.  There was too much haze.  So in terms of  later identifying features, they weren't useful.  It  was difficult to -- maybe it is more our problem  than anything but to co-ordinate what the hereditary  chief was identifying with where the pan was on the  video, where the operator of the video was panning  at a given time.  Wind noise created a problem in  terms of recording what was being said.  We couldn't  cut that out.  So -- and it, at the same time as a  back up, I was doing 35 milimetre still photos and 7336  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 panning or I realized right away that probably would  2 be important to completely pan at that location with  3 the still photos, and it turned out on examination  4 right after the first couple of trips that the still  5 photos were much more valuable.  They cut through  6 the haze; the features were more distinct; I could  7 place them in relation to notes that I was keeping.  8 Q    All right.  Did you then at some point cease using  9 the video tape.  10 A    I think we tried them for -- the videos for one or  11 two more trips, and then abandoned that.  And from  12 then on, on a helicopter flight, I didn't bother --  13 I relied on my -- on a 35-millimetre camera to do  14 the photo record of the features and of the  15 territory because what we were trying to do was not  16 just -- we wanted to identify features and have a  17 photo record of them but also as much as possible a  18 photo record of the entire territory.  19 Q    Now, you have made mention of the field trips that  20 you took using helicopters.  Were you using a video  21 camera to record features or boundaries or  22 territories on occasions other than when you went on  23 the helicopter flight?  24 A    No.  I don't recall a situation other than on those  25 first flights that we used the video.  26 Q    Did you use audio tapes during any of the heli  27 flights?  2 8 A    Yes, we did.  29 Q    What was the effectiveness of that device as a means  30 of recording information of the hereditary chiefs?  31 A    We thought that it would be valuable but it wasn't.  32 Once again, we encountered the wind noise and the  33 noise in the chopper.  On the ground, what proved to  34 be the most valuable way was for me to -- or whoever  35 was conducting the interview -- was to take notes,  36 take photographs and relate what the hereditary  37 chief was saying to the notes and the photo  38 sequence.  39 Q    Is it then the case that you, in respect of the heli  40 flights, did you abandon the use of the audio tapes?  41 A    Yes.  We sometimes took a recorder along.  We didn't  42 necessarily use it, but we basically abandoned that  43 approach.  44 Q    All right.  Now, you mentioned photographs.  You  45 took photographs of topographical features in the  46 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en territories?  47 A    Yes, I did. 7337  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q    And did you -- well, perhaps I should just ask:  2 Apart from the heli flights that you'd mentioned,  3 were there other circumstances during which you took  4 photographs of these?  5 A    Yes.  My family and I do a lot of hunting and, when  6 I went out, I recorded features.  I -- during the  7 winter we snow-shoe'd or went skiddooing and I would  8 get to areas that I may not have been able to get  9 too easily by chopper or by foot and I recorded  10 areas.  And then in the Hazelton area, Hazelton  11 Kisgagas, when I drove or used other means to get  12 around, horseback, I also recorded or took  13 photographs of basically panoramas of mountains,  14 mountain ranges and creeks and so on.  15 Q    Did you take photographs also during land field  16 trips that you took by foot or by other means?  17 A    Yes, I did.  18 Q    And what was the purpose of these photographs?  How  19 did you use the photographs?  20 A    Well, the intention was to -- was to record the  21 features and corresponding Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en  22 name; to have a historical record or a pictorial  23 record of the Gitksan/Wet'suwet'en territories as  24 completely as possible; to attempt to record on the  25 photograph what the Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en name of  26 that feature was for the benefits of future  27 generations.  Those were the prime purposes.  To a  28 certain extent I have been able to identify a number  29 of features on photographs one way or the other and,  30 when I say one way or the other, I have not applied  31 every Gitksan or Wet -- or Gitksan names.  In  32 particular, others worked for intensely on the  33 Wet'suwet'en side.  I have not applied every name to  34 every feature that appears in the photographs.  I  35 just kind of control points and also one of the  36 intentions was to go back and sit down with the  37 hereditary chief and review the photographs with  38 them.  That didn't necessarily happen.  It became  39 more a record than a photo review although I can do  40 that to a certain extent.  41 Q    When you say you did do that, what do you mean; that  42 is to —  43 A    I took the photographs, sat down with the hereditary  44 chief and reviewed them to confirm that the feature  45 that I had identified in my sketches and in the  46 field was the feature that they were identifying on  47 the photograph or they were identifying in the field 733?  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  THE  MR.  A  Q  A  RUSH  COURT  RUSH:  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  THE  MR.  MR.  MR.  and to do that on the photograph.  Q    And in respect of that, you said that were you able  to do that in the case of all the information or the  information that you received on the field trips?  A    I didn't do that with every hereditary chief.  As a  matter of fact, I didn't do it rigorously.  I did it  with some of them.  Q    All right.  But accumulate these photographs in  photographic three-ring binders?  Yes, I did.  And did you index these?  Yes, I did.  And I want to show you some of these photographs.  Two of these have been entered as exhibits, my lord,  volumes 1 and 5, I believe so --  Did I get my copies?  Should I send for my copies?  Yes.  Perhaps that could be done over the break, my  lord.  I intend to take Mr. Sterritt to the volumes  and I am going to ask him to identify all of them.  These are 2, 3 and 4, and I believe I have both a  desk copy for your lordship and --  COURT:  I have two or three volumes already.  RUSH:  You should have volumes 1 and 5.  REGISTRAR:  You have 1 and 5, I believe.  RUSH:  And I am now handing to you volumes 2, 3 and 4.  REGISTRAR:  Are those for his lordship?  RUSH:  Yes, that's right, and I'll have another copy for  you.  I will just get that now.  Perhaps I could  just take one of the volumes, maybe volume 1 which  has been entered as an exhibit already.  REGISTRAR:  It is downstairs.  RUSH:  It is.  All right then, I think I can put volume 2  before Mr. Sterritt.  REGISTRAR:  I can go get it if you wish.  RUSH:  GOLDIE  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  That's all right.  We can go with 2.  :  What volume is this?  Two.  Showing you a volume of photographs labelled  Gitksan Territory Volume 2, Number 1-6, and there is  a -- in the front of this volume what appears to  be -- well, what is identified as a photographic  index, volume 2.  Do you recognize that, Mr.  Sterritt?  Yes, I do.  Okay.  You scanned this volume prior to court today,  have you?  Yes, I did. 7339  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  MR.  GOLDIE:  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  Q  A  GOLDIE  MR. RUSH:  MR. GOLDIE  RUSH:  GOLDIE  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  I hope so.  And you have also looked at the other volumes,  volumes 3 and 4?  Yes, I have.  And you have reviewed volume 1 and volume 5 as well  which are not present in court here but you have  reviewed those photographic volumes prior to coming  to court?  Yes, I have.  And do those five volumes of photographs contain  photographs which you took?  Yes, they are.  This has been the subject of rather extensive  admissions, my lord.  I am not quite sure of what my  friend's purpose is.  My purpose is that although they have been extensive,  they haven't been complete and neither from --  complete from both sides, so my purpose is to  introduce these photographs and unfortunately, I  can't with the state of the admissions rely on the  admissions as a complete way of proving the  photographs.  Well, the admissions I think go all to the extent  of admitting that he took the photographs.  Well, yours do.  Yes.  I suspect that the authenticity of the  photographs is not in question.  Mr. Sterritt, in the front of the volume here,  volume 2 that's before you, this is -- demonstrates  an index.  Did you prepare this index?  Yes, I did.  And can you just express to his lordship what it is  that the index is purporting to show if you take  the, for example, page number 1 and the first page  of the index of volume 2 and describe what it is  that you are endeavouring to show by means of this  index?  The purpose of the index in the way it is laid out  is so that a person can locate themself as they view  the picture and know both where the photograph was  taken from and what the photograph is taken of in  relation to features that appear on the National  Topographic Series of Maps.  All right.  For example, under page number heading,  you have, 1 and then photo number 1 and then map 7340  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 reference 93M.  Is that 93M reference to the  2 National Topographic Series or the NTS series map?  3 A    Yes, it is, and I also prepared a key that I thought  4 would be with this.  It may be with volume 1.  But  5 what the key shows is how the photo sequences are  6 numbered on the page and, if you go to page number  7 18 and it is a page that faces you, then photo  8 number 1 is in the upper left corner, photo number 2  9 is beside it to the right, photo 3 is in the lower  10 left-hand corner, and photo number 4 is in the lower  11 right; so that I maintained if there was four  12 photographs on a page, I maintained that numbering  13 sequence and that is indicated on a page that should  14 be with the volume.  So photo number 1 appears  15 within map reference 93M which is the Hazelton map  16 sheet.  17 Q    Just if you will pause there, Mr. Sterritt.  When  18 you just now described the place on page 1 of the  19 four photographs, you turned the volume of  20 photographs on its side such that the three rings  21 were at the top of the page and then you indicated  22 moving from the left to the right and then back to  23 the left and then to the right, the position of the  24 photographs on the page.  Is that the sequence that  25 you followed when you put together the photographs?  26 A    Yes, it is.  27 Q    All right.  Now, I am sorry I interrupted you.  28 Would you go ahead, please, and discuss the index?  29 A    Now, photo number 1 is labelled "Not Applicable"  30 because it is the first -- when I loaded my camera,  31 I clicked through until I got to number 1 on my  32 camera numbering, and it's just a photo of the --  33 the sky actually and some mountains.  34 Q    I think we can all confess to that error on  35 occasion, Mr. Sterritt.  What about number 2?  36 A    Okay.  Photo number 2 indicates A/B over Skeena  37 River, Deep Canoe Creek.  Now A/B is airborne, so I  38 have taken this photograph from the helicopter and  39 the approximate location of the chopper at that time  40 is at the mouth of Xsu Wii Daxyan, Deep Canoe Creek,  41 as it entered the Skeena River.  42 Q    Xsu Wii Daxyan is 1386, my lord.  All right, and  43 number 3, photo number 3 which --  44 A    Well, I should finish number 2.  45 Q    Yes, go ahead.  46 A    If you look at that, at photo number 2, then the  47 view is north, that's what the N stands for, and 7341  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 then in brackets, (view toward), and the labelling  2 column means the view is north and then toward Kuldo  3 Mountain.  So if you had a 93M map at a scale of 1  4 to 250,000 before you, you could locate yourself at  5 the junction of Deep Canoe Creek in the Skeena River  6 and look north towards Kuldo Mountain on the map and  7 know that this is the view that you have.  8 Q    All right.  And —  9 A    Now, that -- all of those designations appear on the  10 sheet that is in, I believe, volume 1, it should be  11 in each one.  12 Q    Yes, all right.  Well, I am going to come to these  13 in just a minute.  Now, photograph number 3 on the  14 photograph, index volume 2?  15 A    It's -- that photograph is airborne over Deep Canoe  16 Creek and in this case, the view is west up Deep  17 Canoe Creek.  18 Q    All right.  19 A   And photograph number 4 is a -- is airborne in  20 similar -- right in the same area and the view is  21 north up the Skeena River at -- in fact that  22 location is Xsi Agat.  23 Q    Is what?  24 A    Xsi Agat, the mouth of the canyon.  25 Q    And on the photocopy of the photograph, Xsi Agat is  26 spelled X-s-t- new word A-g-i-t?  27 A    Yes.  28 Q    I am sorry?  29 A    I -- in order to -- as a way of identifying the  30 Gitksan names, I photographed or, pardon me, Xeroxed  31 the page of photographs and then labelled with  32 Gitksan names the features and I did that in most of  33 the photographs.  I'd have to check whether I did it  34 with all of them.  35 Q    All right.  Now, when did you prepare that index  36 that you have made reference to?  37 A    I completed the indexing that appears in the front  38 of the binder in February of 1988.  39 Q    And was there anything to accompany the index that  4 0 you completed about the same time?  41 A    Previous to this, I prepared, along with the  42 assistance of Marvin George, I prepared a map.  I  43 put the flight lines in which a given helicopter  44 reconnaissance trip was taken.  I applied the flight  45 lines and the photo stations at a location where we  46 would land, and those all appear on the map, and  47 there is a complete indexing to June or July of 1987 7342  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 of those helicopter flights.  2 Q    Is this conveniently described as the Flight Line  3 Draft Map?  4 A    Yes.  5 Q    And I take it this Flight Line Draft Map contains  6 all of the helicopter flights that you participated  7 in and took photographs during the course of?  8 A    What I incorporated on that map was the helicopter  9 flights as well as to June of 1987 or July of 1987,  10 any vehicle trips that I took.  11 Q    Where you took photographs?  12 A    Where I took photographs in the past few years.  13 Q    All right.  Why -- can you tell his lordship why it  14 was that you prepared the index and the Flight Lines  15 Draft Map?  16 A    When we turned the photo albums over to the  17 defendants, the Province, and the Federal  18 Government, it was difficult for them to -- well,  19 almost impossible for them to locate what the  20 picture was of or where it was, and so I began to  21 put together an index and the map.  We put the map  22 together right away and handed it over.  But it  23 needed further detail and the index that appears  24 here was the further detail that was required.  It  25 was also so that future Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en  26 persons who used the album will be able to locate  27 themselves as well.  28 Q    The photographs of the -- excuse me, the photocopies  29 of the photographs that are contained in the books,  30 can you say when those were prepared?  31 A    In 1986 and possibly into 1987.  32 Q    Okay.  And was it you that put the labellings on the  33 photocopies?  34 A    Yes.  35 Q    Now, in terms of the other volumes of photographs,  36 was the index in respect of those other volumes put  37 together in the same way you described as having  38 been put together for volume 2?  39 A    Yes.  40 Q    And in terms of the relationship of the Flight Lines  41 Draft Map and the index and photographs, how do they  42 refer to each other, if they do?  43 A    In the photo album, I tried to separate a sequence  44 of photographs.  For example, volume 2 -- I am not  45 sure that this is the best example, but volume 2  46 number 1 would refer to a film.  47 Q    Volume 2 number 1?  Do you mean to say page 1? 7343  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  A  Q  A  A  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  THE COURT:  MR. RUSH:  THE REGISTRAR:  No, no, volume 2 number 1.  I don't see it in this.  Volume 1 might be the best one and maybe it is only  in the original -- pardon me, my copy of the  photographs.  Yes.  I am not sure it was done here because these were  prepared from my volume.  But the sequence of  photographs, a film, I considered to be a set and  that -- that set would -- I think would appear on  the flight lines map as a set.  I see.  So there is a relationship between the  photographs and the Flight Lines Draft Map, is  there?  There is, based on the negatives and the photo --  and the photo station, the area where we set down  and conducted an interview on the ground.  Okay.  Convenient time to adjourn, Mr. Rush?  All right.  Yes, my lord.  I should bring the other two volumes?  Yes, if you will, please.  Order in court.  (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED AT 11:15 A.M.)  I hereby certify the foregoing to be  a true and accurate transcript of the  proceedings herein, transcribed to the  best of my skill and ability.  TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  United Reporting Service Ltd.  (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) 7344  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE REGISTRAR:  May I proceed?  THE COURT:  Yes.  THE REGISTRAR:  Did you want these volumes?  MR. RUSH:  I will be referring to them in just a moment.  Thank  you.  My lord, I'd like to mark the volumes two,  three and four, if I may.  MR. GOLDIE:  That's on the same basis, my lord.  THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  MR. GOLDIE:  I should say that when I get the nature of the  notices to admit that we have I can be perhaps a  little more precise.  THE COURT:  Yes.  MR. GOLDIE:  But we went through these in considerable detail,  and it may be that there are some specific  submissions that I have to make.  THE COURT:  All right.  So volumes two, three and four —  THE REGISTRAR:  Will be 654.  MR. RUSH:  All right.  If I may exhibit —  THE COURT:  654 will be volume two, 655 will be volume three and  656 will be volume four, on the same basis as volume  22.  (EXHIBIT 654: Volume 2 of Photographs)  (EXHIBIT 655: Volume 3 of Photographs)  (EXHIBIT 656:  Volume 4 of Photographs)  MR. RUSH:  Well, my lord, it can't be precisely on the same  basis, because a number of the photographs in both  of those were identified by hereditary chiefs.  THE COURT:  No, I mean the same terms they were marked when they  were first marked.  MR. RUSH:  I see.  MR. GOLDIE:  I'm sorry.  And maybe —  THE COURT:  On the same basis as volumes one and five were  marked at the time that they were marked.  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  THE COURT:  Since that time Mr. Rush has pointed out some  witnesses have verified --  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes, and it may -- yes, and it may be that a more  extensive admission may be made depending on our --  or it may be there are some to which a specific  objection is taken.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  MR. RUSH:  Now, could the first volume please be placed before 7345  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  Mr. Sterritt.  THE COURT:  Mr. Rush, it's been pointed out to me that volumes  one and five were marked for identification.  MR. RUSH:  Yes.  Thank you for pointing that out to me.  I would  ask that they be marked as exhibits in the  proceedings.  I'm just now trying to find --  THE REGISTRAR:  Volume number one is 377.  MR. RUSH:  Excuse me?  THE REGISTRAR:  377.  MR. RUSH:  Yes.  Thank you.  THE REGISTRAR:  And volume number five is 487.  MR. RUSH:  Thank you.  Well, it's 377 that I ask be marked as an  exhibit in the proceedings.  Similarly with regard  to volume five, I'd ask that that be marked as an  exhibit in the proceedings.  MR. GOLDIE:  Well, in my submission, my lord, their present  status is that they're not evidence against either  defendant, but the witness says I took these  photographs, and I say that they relate to this,  this and this.  That may be so.  They may be  photographs given geographic features, but they are  not evidence of title or of anything that is alleged  with respect to title at this point.  There's a  different standing with respect to those which have  been identified by the hereditary chiefs.  That  comes into a different category, but at the present  time, and given Mr. Sterritt's present status, any  relationship of these to territory is a matter of  hearsay.  THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Goldie, what's the difference between this  and the classic case of when we used to have  criminal negligence causing death cases in the  assize court where evidentiary rules are  considerably stricter, and the first Crown witness  would be a police photographer who would say I went  to the location and I took a picture of Broadway and  Granville, and this is a picture taken from east  looking west and this is north and south.  It's not  evidence against anybody, it merely is evidence in  the case.  MR. GOLDIE:  Yes.  THE COURT:  There is no qualification needed on the evidence.  This witness says I took these pictures.  This is  what I label them to be.  It may be he's quite  wrong.  Is it not evidence in the case  notwithstanding the fact --  MR. GOLDIE:  If I didn't say it I intended to say that.  This 7346  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Proceedings  1  2  THE  COURT:  3  MR.  GOLDIE  4  5  THE  COURT:  6  7  MR.  GOLDIE  8  9  THE  COURT:  10  11  12  MR.  GOLDIE  13  14  15  16  17  18  THE  COURT:  19  MR.  GOLDIE  20  21  22  23  24  THE  COURT:  25  26  27  MR.  GOLDIE  28  29  30  THE  COURT:  31  32  MR.  RUSH:  33  34  35  36  37  38  THE  COURT:  39  MR.  RUSH:  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  witness is competent to say I took that photograph.  Yes.  :  And I believe it's a photograph of that feature,  period.  And isn't that some evidence which may later become  evidence of title?  :  Yes, but not from the mouth of this witness as at  the present time.  Can he say I took this picture and I call it this  the same way the police officer says I took this  picture and I call it Broadway and Granville?  :  Well, the note I made of what Mr. Sterritt said was  that the photographs were taken with the -- refers  to features on the N.T.S. maps.  That's -- that's  his opinion, and it's -- that's as far as it goes.  It's not evidence of title.  It's not evidence of  anything.  It's not evidence of title.  :  Or ownership or jurisdiction.  What it's evidence  of is this is the person who took this photograph,  and it's his opinion that it is a photograph of a  particular feature just the same as the police  officer at Broadway and Granville.  And that seems to me to be evidence in a case which  may later be proveable of some fact in issue, or it  may not.  :  Precisely, but and if that is the extent to which  the document is being marked as an exhibit I am  content to have it so marked.  All right.  I think that's the basis at this point  that it's admissible.  With respect, my lord, I don't agree.  I don't agree  it goes as far as what's been submitted here.  I say  it goes much farther than that in the sense that Mr.  Sterritt also says I took this photograph during  those certain heli flights and during those certain  flights there were hereditary chiefs.  I'm not sure that evidence is admissible.  What they said may not be admissible yet.  The fact  that they were present at times when the photographs  were taken, and many of those names, many of the  chiefs who were present with Mr. Sterritt identified  places with similar names and with similar  geographic descriptions on maps I think again goes  along the way of what your lordship has indicated as  being some evidence of what it purports to show.  Now, we got into this when we were saying that the 7347  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Proceedings  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  THE COURT  place of Smithers is a matter of opinion, and I  remember having an interesting argument about that  last June, and I  think that Mr. Goldie's submission, at least in  respect of some of the photographs, comes somewhat  close to that, that it's an opinion.  For example,  that Mr. Sterritt would say that a photograph of  Kisgegas Village is an opinion about the fact that  it's Kisgegas Village.  Well, with respect, my lord,  that objection may have some merit with respect to a  number of what these photographs demonstrate, but in  respect of others I say it has no merit because of  the wide knowledge of the existence of places that  certainly should take these out of the category of  opinion.  Well, I think this is the kind of discussion why the  English are thinking of abolishing the --.  I think  that at the moment I have determined that these five  volumes of photographs are admissible and may be  marked as exhibits, and not as exhibits for  identification, and it seems to me that that's as  far as we have to go at the moment.  You gentlemen  may have at this moment a disagreement with the  status of the photographs.  I don't find it  necessary to determine that issue at the moment,  because other evidence may change the position that  one or other or both of you take with respect to  these exhibits, and I think I should hear the  argument after we know more about it.  I'm not  persuaded at the moment that the picture being taken  in the presence of hereditary chief adds anything to  it.  It might, but I don't think I can determine  that yet.  I'm having them marked as exhibits at the  trial.  They're evidence in the case, and the use to  which they may be put is a matter I will hear  argument from counsel in due course, I'm sure, which  is a more convenient and useful thing than having  the argument at present.  So that means volumes one  and five may now be marked by their respective  numbers not for identification.  (EXHIBIT 377:  Volume 1 of Photographs)  (EXHIBIT 487:  Volume 5 of Photographs)  MR. RUSH:  Q   Mr. Sterritt, I'm directing you to volume one, and 7348  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Proceedings  In chief by Mr. Rush  you've already made a reference to the way in which  the index was prepared.  In volume number one there  is a tab separating volume -- the index from the  first photograph, and I wonder if you can explain to  his  lordship what that tab which is identified as volume  one number one indicates?  That indicates a photo sequence that goes from page  one to page 12, and is, as best I can recall, that  would be the photographs, or the first set of  photographs, or the film that took me from Mount or  French Peak around to north of 'Wii t'ax, Gunanoot  Lake, and --  :  I'm sorry, the name of the lake again?  Gunanoot Lake.  :  Thank you.  All right.  If I can just ask you to look at the page  one of this volume one has a contents page.  What  does that indicate?  It indicates the photo or the helicopter stations that  we used on June the 22nd, 1983.  It gives a station,  a triangle and a number, meaning station number one,  which is located four miles north of French Peak at  the 1788 meter elevation.  And that would -- that  appeared on the National Topographic Series map that  1788 meter elevation as a way of locating where we  are.  We indicated it here as a means of indicating  where we were when we landed.  All right.  Now, you have similar helicopter stations  indicated in numbers one, two, three and four?  Yes.  And various places, and then you have another date of  June 23rd, 1983 showing what appears to be eight  stations, is that right?  Yes.  All right.  Does your lordship have that on the front  page?  :  Well, you have the only copy of volume one.  There ought to be two copies, one of your lordship's  and one for the witness.  :  Well, that may be.  We haven't got the volume one.  I'm just reversing the copies, my lord.  :  Thank you.  I'm just draw to your lordship's attention that in  the witness' copy there doesn't appear to be an  index.  In my copy and in your copy there is such an  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  14  THE  COURT  15  A  16  THE  COURT  17  MR.  RUSH:  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  Q  31  32  A  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  MR.  RUSH:  38  39  THE  COURT  40  MR.  RUSH:  41  42  THE  COURT  43  MR.  RUSH:  44  THE  COURT  45  MR.  RUSH:  46  47 7349  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  THE COURT  3  4  MR. RUSH:  5  Q  6  7  8  9  A  10  11  Q  12  13  14  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  A  20  Q  21  A  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  Q  34  35  36  A  37  38  39  Q  40  41  42  43  A  44  45  46  47  index.  I'm not sure why that is so, but we'll try.  :  Madam Registrar should perhaps transfer the index to  the court copy during the break.  The photographs beginning on the second page which is  marked page two, is this -- are these the  photographs of the helicopter flight of June the  22nd, 1983?  Yes.  And those photographs are at the first station  of that day north of French Peak.  And who's shown in the photographs on page two?  It  looks like the same individuals in each one of the  four photographs.  Maybe you could identify them in  the upper left hand corner or photograph number one.  Glen Williams, Ax gwin desxw, on the left.  Is he the gentleman with his hands in his pocket?  Yes.  Yes.  In the T-shirt.  And then moving --  And then moving to the right of the picture in the  Stanfield underwear shirt there, or sweater, that's  Simgit giigeenix, Robert Jackson Sr., and he's from  the House of Milulak.  And then right behind him is  Wag galwil, David Green.  And the mountain peak in  between Glen Williams and Robert Jackson Sr. is  French Peak.  In which photograph?  In the first photograph, the upper left corner.  All right.  And which direction are you facing?  We're facing south.  Pardon me, looking into the  picture you are looking south.  And it looks as though the three gentlemen have moved  to another location in photograph two.  Which way  are you looking there?  I've panned to the west, and the mountains behind Glen  Williams, that is Saa Hahla Gyoot, and that on the  map would appear as Thoen Mountain.  T-H-O-E-N.  Okay.  And the spelling for that here is  S-A-A-H-A-H-L-A G-Y-O-O-T.  And in the bottom left  hand corner of photograph number three which  direction are you facing?  We are now facing the -- when you look into the  picture you're looking west, and you're looking  there at -- just in front of David Green you see a  mountain coming up into the clouds, and that  mountain is Daahl An Makhl, which is a mountain just 7350  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 above Kisgegas.  You're looking down the Babine  2 River towards Kisgegas, and Kisgegas is down below  3 Daahl An Makhl.  4 Q   Is that -- to the right of David Green there appears  5 to be a number of peaks there.  Is that whole area  6 the mountain you just referred to?  7 A   No, it isn't.  It's the first peak.  And then there's  8 a snowcapped -- you can see it kind of shaded, and  9 then the next peak has snow on it, and it's  10 approximately at the centre of the picture, and that  11 is Tsim An Makhl, which is in the area of Kisgegas  12 peak.  13 MR. RUSH:  All right.  So Tsim An Makhl.  I'd like to get a  14 spelling for that, Ms. Howard.  15 THE SPELLER:  T-S-I-M A-N M-A-K-H-L-E.  16 THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  M-A-A-T?  17 THE SPELLER:  M-A-K-H-L-E.  18 THE COURT:  H-L-U.  19 MR. RUSH:  20 Q   And the bottom right hand photograph, Mr. Sterritt.  21 A   I have now panned and I'm taking a photograph  22 farther -- it would be facing northwest from that  23 station, and behind the hat of Robert Jackson Sr.,  24 the yellow hat, is the area of Tarn Xsigintaayin,  25 which is at the head waters of the Sicintine River.  26 Q   Now, there is an indication of a name on the photocopy  27 that accompanies page two, and that seems to be just  28 behind the hat of Robert Jackson?  29 A   Yes.  30 Q   That's a further -- that's another name other than the  31 one you've referred to, is it?  32 A   Yes.  There is -- the Sicintine River flows more or  33 less north at that point.   The Shelagyote or  34 Shelagyote River flows south, and the area around  35 the head of Shelagyote is known as An Gil Gilanous.  36 Q   And that's -- there is a Gitksan name with an arrow  37 pointing towards an area.  Is that intended to  38 indicate where the head waters of the Shelagyote  39 are?  40 A   Yes.  41 Q   Tarn Xsigintaayin is then closer to Robert Jackson's  42 hat, is that right?  43 A  An Gil Gilanous refers to one watershed and Tarn  44 Xsigintaayin refers to another.  This is all within  45 four or five miles of each other back in that area.  46 Q   Okay.  47 A  And Anxbinaawa is a mountain in the area of the arrow 7351  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 on the photocopy.  2 Q   Right.  And the other name that appears on the  3 photocopy, Mr. Sterritt, what is that one?  4 A   That's Anxbinaawa.  That's what I referred to, the  5 mountain.  6 Q   Now, if you'll just turn now to page three, photograph  7 number one.  Is this a new pan?  8 A   Yes.  It's the same location now looking more or less  9 north, and right in front of the hat of Robert  10 Jackson Sr. is a timbered knoll, timbered mountain,  11 and that is Miinhl gwo good, Mount Horetzky.  And  12 then --  13 Q   Now, I wonder whether, Mr. Sterritt, it's difficult  14 for me, and probably his lordship, to determine  15 which is Mount Horetzky.  16 THE COURT:  I can recognize it.  17 MR. RUSH:  Probably better than I, my lord.  18 Q   Which is —  19 A   It's almost mid picture.  20 THE COURT:  Yes.  Just below the rising —  21 A   Yes.  22 THE COURT:  — In the picture?  23 A   Yes.  And then —  24 MR. GOLDIE:  We have admitted a number of these, my lord.  I  25 don't know whether -- it would seem appropriate to  26 me that we should file our admissions.  27 MR. RUSH:  Well, as I said, my lord, I don't have admissions in  28 respect of all of these photographs.  29 MR. GOLDIE:  No — well, that's quite right.  We have specified  30 the ones that we have not admitted, because the  31 topographic details were not visible.  We've had  32 people go over these and endeavor to -- people who  33 are experienced in the territory and who -- those  34 that can be verified we have admitted.  But, for  35 instance, we have admitted all on pages one, two,  36 three, four and five.  It isn't until we come to  37 page six there are a couple of photographs there in  38 which the photographic -- the topographic details  39 weren't sufficient to allow an identification.  For  40 instance, if your lordship looks at page six.  41 MR. RUSH:  My lord, I don't have an admission from the defendant  42 Canada on these.  43 MR. MACAULAY:  I have instructions to admit at least what the  44 Province has admitted, and we'll be admitting  45 perhaps a few more.  46 THE COURT:  Does the admission include the -- the description --  47 I should be addressing this to Mr. Goldie, the 7352  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  3  MR.  GOLDIE  4  5  THE  COURT:  6  MR.  GOLDIE  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  THE  COURT:  25  MR.  GOLDIE  26  THE  COURT:  27  28  MR.  GOLDIE  29  30  THE  COURT:  31  MR.  GOLDIE  32  33  34  THE  COURT:  35  36  MR.  RUSH:  37  38  39  40  MR.  GOLDIE  41  42  MR.  RUSH:  43  THE  COURT:  44  45  MR.  GOLDIE  46  47  description shown on the photocopy of the  photographs?  :  No.  It admits the description that is in the  index.  Oh.  :  The admission is with respect to the volume we're  looking at now, "This defendant admits the English  language description of the photographs in volumes  one, two, three and five as contained in the  photographic indices sent to this defendant on  February 25, 1988, and that the photographs in the  said volumes were taken at the locations referred to  in the said indices with the exception of those  photographs listed on Schedule A."  And then  Schedule A lists the exceptions.  And I was going to  give your lordship an example on page six.  If your  lordship would be kind enough to look at page six.  We say, "Photograph number two the topographic  detail's not visible."  That's a reflection of the  information that we were given by an experienced  helicopter pilot who was unable to say that the  description in the index can be verified with  respect to that photograph.  That's photograph number?  :  Two on page six.  Two on page six.  Well, I can tell that's Kotsine  Mountain just by looking at it.  :  You're ahead of the man we consulted who makes his  living flying around that world.  All right.  :  As I say, I think I should file that, because the  admissions for the most part cover most of the  photographs.  Any reason why Mr. Goldie shouldn't file his  admissions, Mr. Rush?  No.  He seems to want to do that, and I certainly  don't have any problem with him doing it.  My ear  may not have correctly heard this, but I thought my  friend said volumes one, two, three, four and five?  :  No.  There is a separate admission with respect to  four.  Yes.  All right.  I don't have any problems.  All right.  The admissions -- Province's  admissions --  :  Well, I think what should be done, my lord, is that  the notice to admit and the admissions pursuant  there to should be filed as a single exhibit. 7353  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 THE COURT:  Yes.  All right.  The notice to admit will be  2 Exhibit 657 and the admission will be 658.  3  4 (EXHIBIT 657:  Notice to Admit)  5  6 (EXHIBIT 658:  Admission)  7  8 MR. MACAULAY:  Perhaps your lordship could reserve a number for  9 our admissions.  10 THE COURT:  All right.  11 MR. MACAULAY:  Which they will be typed up now.  12 THE COURT:  Exhibit 659 will be reserved for Mr. Macaulay's  13 admission which will be co what with Mr. Goldie's?  14 Coterminus doesn't sound right.  Coextensive?  It's  15 the same admission as Mr. Goldie's, as the  16 Province's admission.  17 MR. MACAULAY:  It will go a little further.  18 THE COURT:  All right.  Goes at least that far?  19 MR. MACAULAY:  Goes at least that far.  20 THE COURT:  That number 659 will be reserved for Mr. Macaulay's  21 admissions.  22 THE REGISTRAR:  May I have them?  23 MR. GOLDIE:  This is my only copy.  I'll have to make copies for  2 4 you.  25 THE REGISTRAR:  Very well.  26 THE COURT:  All right.  Does that assist you, Mr. Rush?  27 MR. RUSH:  Marginally.  28 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, I want to ask you about your  29 dealing with page three, and you had just commented  30 on photograph number one, and with regard to  31 photograph number two on page three there are  32 Gitksan names there that you appended to the  33 photograph -- photocopy of a photograph, is that  34 right?  35 A   Yes.  36 Q   And those Gitksan names refer to what?  37 A   On photo number two?  38 Q   On page three.  39 A   On page three.  I think it's best to locate ourselves  40 with reference to Mount Horetzky, and that's in the  41 very centre of the picture.  To the left is a range  42 of mountains.  To the left of Mount Horetzky and  43 just behind is a range of peaks that run into the  44 distance there.  That's Gallix No'ohl Loobit.  It's  45 part of the boundary of Miluulak.  46 Q   That is the first of the names running from left to  47 right.  It is indicated by an arrow, is that right? 7354  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  A  2  Q  3  A  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  MR.  GOLDIE  11  THE  COURT:  12  A  13  MR.  RUSH:  14  Q  15  A  16  Q  17  A  18  Q  19  20  21  THE  COURT:  22  MR.  RUSH:  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  MR.  GOLDIE  32  33  34  35  THE  COURT:  36  MR.  RUSH:  37  THE  COURT:  38  MR.  RUSH:  39  Q  40  41  42  43  A  44  Q  45  A  46  Q  47  Yes.  Yes.  I wasn't looking there.  All right.  Yes.  And then barely visible at the right end of  Horetzky, Miinhl gwo good, which is Lip skanisit,  which is Kotsine Mountain.  And then immediately to  the right of that is a range of mountains.  It's on  the National Topographic Series as the Bait Range.  And that is An skeexs, and the boundary of Miluulak  runs up --  :  Well, your lordship has my objection on that.  Yes.  An skeexs.  That is the east boundary, is it?  The southeast boundary.  All right.  And Miinhl gwo good is the Territory of Wiiget.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, on the bottom left hand corner of  the photograph you have Tomlinson Mountains, and  that's in photograph number --  Three.  Photograph number three.  Do you have that?  Yes.  Tomlinson Mountains, is that a range?  Tomlinson Mountain, locally we call that series of  mountains Tomlinson Range, but Tomlinson Peak is a  mountain within that area.  And very close to that  under the cloud to the right is Luus Tsee'it, which  is part of Nii kyap's territory.  :  Well, my lord, I've said a couple of times, your  lordship has my objection, but I ask that the  witness be -- confine himself to geographic  features.  Is that not the right thing to do at this time?  All right.  Yes.  Thank you.  In the bottom right hand corner, photograph number  four, it indicates David Green on Miinhl gwo good,  which I take it to be Mount Horetzky.  Is that right  Mr. Sterritt?  Yes, it is.  Have you then changed location?  Yes.  And it indicates as well on the photocopy Atna Pass in  the background, and I take it to be, and in relation 7355  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 to Mr. Green's hat, where is Atna Pass?  2 A   If you follow the top of David Green's hat along the  3 timber and when it comes to the break where the  4 mountains begin just in front of him, about half an  5 inch to an inch in the picture, that break there is  6 the area of Atna Pass.  7 THE COURT:  Right up against the mountain?  8 A   Yes.  9 THE COURT:  On the shoulder of the mountain?  10 A   Yes, it is.  And then the mountain that begins there  11 is the one I described earlier, Daahl An Makhl.  12 MR. RUSH:  13 Q   Mr. Sterritt, are we when looking at this photograph,  14 number four on page three, looking west?  15 A   Yes.  We're looking west towards the -- you see a peak  16 not far into that range, it's quite steep, that's in  17 the vicinity of Kisgegas Peak, and that is Tsim an  18 makhl.  And right where that peak, that pyramid that  19 you can see comes down and joins the rest of the  20 range that runs to the right is the area known as  21 Gallii Xsi Yeesywit.  On the map that would be at  22 the head of -- near the head of Xsi Andap Matx or  23 Goat Head Creek.  24 Q   All right.  Would you go to page four of the  25 photographs.  On the photocopy of the photograph  26 number one there is a Gitksan name that looks to be  27 Tsim Goohl Yip?  28 A   Yes.  29 Q   Does that have an English name?  30 A   Right in front of the hat of David Green the -- not  31 the peak, but actually between the peak of his hat  32 and the symbol on the front of his hat is a  33 little — is a small hill.  That is Tsim Goohl Yip.  34 And there is no -- there's no identifying feature on  35 any topographic map that I know of, but that is the  36 Gitksan name of that area and that hill.  37 THE COURT:  This is still on Mount Horetzky, is it?  38 A  We're still located on Horetzky and we're still  39 looking generally to the west.  4 0    MR. RUSH:  41 Q   And the name on the right hand side of that  42 photograph, is that known by an English name on the  4 3 maps?  44 A  Anxbinaawa is the mountain right at the edge of the  45 photo, but I don't -- there is an English name for  46 it and I don't recall it, and I don't have an index  47 with this binder. 7356  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  A  3  4  Q  5  6  7  8  A  9  10  11  12  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  Q  24  A  25  THE COURT  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  MR. RUSH:  32  Q  33  34  A  35  36  37  38  Q  39  40  A  41  42  43  44  45  Q  46  47  Okay.  But if you looked I think it would be appear there  that we're looking towards -- I can't recall it.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, I just direct your attention now to  the bottom left hand photograph number three. There  is a Gitksan name, what appears to be a Gitksan name  there.  Does that have an English name?  No, there is not.  That -- that whole general area in  front of Robert Jackson Sr. and David Green is known  as Lax An Hak, which refers to the feeding ground of  the geese when they come down there.  Haaxw being  geese.  And the names that are located on the right lower  photograph number four are -- the first name is Xsi  yaga mahlit.  That's Xsi yaga mahlit, and Xsi yaga mahlit -- well,  the best way to describe where it is, the mountain  range that is very distinct in the picture, on the  right half of the picture is Gallix No'ohl Loobit,  and there is no English name for that, but right  down at the base of that is Xsi yaga mahlit, which  is the Nilkitkwa River on the map.  Which river on the map?  Nilkitkwa.  That's N-I-L-K-I-T-K-W-A.  :  Sorry.  N-I-L-K-I-T-K-W-A.  And if you — in that same  photograph if you continue to the very edge of the  photograph there's the beginning of a mountain  there.  That is Kotsine Mountain, the one that we  landed on when we did the overview.  All right.  Please go to page five.  You're still on  Mount Horetzky here?  Yes, we are.  I should also mention that if the  photographs were taken out and laid side-by-side  they are a continuous panorama.  They are overlapped  so that you can see the features all the way along.  Are you talking now about page four or page five or  both?  Almost any given sequence of photographs in the albums  if there is a photo location will generally create  an endless panorama.  In some situations like this  it would be 360 degrees and it would be laid out.  You can follow them.  I just want to point that out.  On page five it looks like there was an attempt to  match together the photographs one and two and then  three and four.  Is that the type of panorama that 7357  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 you've referred to?  2 A   Yes.  Yes.  If you moved photograph two in further on  3 to photograph one you would have a panorama there,  4 but in photograph one in the centre is a bald  5 mountain, and that is Lip skanisit, Kotsine  6 Mountain.  7 Q   That's Kotsine?  8 A   Yes.  And you can see a couple of lighter portions of  9 the picture, in the picture as you come down the  10 centre of it, and that is the valley or the waterway  11 of Xsi yaga mahlit, Nilkitkwa River.  On the right  12 hand side those peaks, that mountain range there  13 that is An skeexs, and that is part of the Bait  14 Range, and you can see an extension of that in photo  15 number two.  And, once again, we're still on  16 Horetzky Mountain.  17 Q   And in the bottom two photographs, three and four,  18 another panorama?  19 A   Yes.  That's a photograph -- best to locate yourself  20 by going to number four.  That is the -- those are  21 the Kisgegas mountains and so the photograph is --  22 the rest of the photograph and photograph number  23 three are of the Tomlinson Range and the valley of  24 the Babine River.  25 Q   The valley of the Babine River is as you go over the  26 ledge and midway through those photographs is  27 that -- they're midway displayed in the back portion  28 of the photograph?  29 A   You see a tree in the left hand corner of photograph  30 number four?  31 Q   Yes.  32 A   The top of the second tree in and the top of the first  33 tree in that's where Xsi gwin Liginsxw or Babine  34 River runs.  35 Q   All right.  Now, if you go, please, to page six.  On  36 page six, photograph number two, apparently it was  37 not possible to, because of the details not being  38 visible, to identify where that photograph was taken  39 or what it depicts.  Can you assist us there?  40 MR. GOLDIE:  His lordship has already done so.  41 MR. RUSH:  Well, we'll find out if he's right now.  42 A  Well, with respect, your honour, in the first  43 photograph is Kotsine Mountain.  On the left hand  44 side of the Bait Range you can see it.  We took that  45 photograph from Horetzky.  We then moved around and  46 landed on Djil Djila, which is the Driftwood Range,  47 and we are some 15 miles east of Kotsine Mountain. 7358  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  2  Q  3  4  A  5  6  7  8   :  MR. GOLDIE  9  A  10  MR. RUSH:  11  12  13  Q  14  15  A  16  17  18  19  Q  20  A  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  26  Q  27  A  28  Q  29  30  A  31  Q  32  33  A  34  35  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A  On this one that is Djil Djila there.  Where the helicopter is shown on photograph two is  Djil Djila?  Yes.  And the direction you're looking when you look  into the photograph is generally north, and the  mountains in the background are part of Gallix  No'ohl Loobit.  :  What's the English name for that?  There is no English name for Gallix No'ohl Loobit.  That's spelled on the photograph G-A-L-L-I-X  N-O-O-'-H-L L-O-O-B-I-T, and Djil Djila is D-J-I-L  D-J-I-L-A.  With regard to photograph number three, Mr. Sterritt,  on that page, page six --  Here we're located on the southwest end of Djil Djila.  The view is to -- towards Gallix No'ohl Loobit, and  the area that's known as S'yuun, or glacier, in the  background behind Robert Jackson.  That is behind his head or to the right of --  Behind his head.  That's known as glacier, is it?  The Gitksan know it as S'yuun, which means glacier.  All right.  Thank you.  Djil Djila is down on the left.  Xsi Djil Djila Valley  is in front of David Green down below him there.  You're referring now still to photograph number three?  Yes.  And the direction that David Green is facing is the  direction where the valley is located, is that so?  Yes.  All right.  Would you please now go to page seven.  And this location is S'kutsil Knob, is that right?  Yes.  We're still on the Driftwood Range,  S-K-U-T-S-I-L, Knob, and here we are looking west or  southwest.  Generally southwest.  Okay.  The upper left hand photograph number one in  the photocopy indicates this is the north side of An  skeexs?  Yes, that's the north end of the Bait Range.  Bait is spelled -- I thought it was B-A-T-E, but it's  B-A-I-T?  Yes.  Again, you have a panorama depiction on page seven, is  that right?  Yes.  Both in the upper and the lower photographs?  Yes.  And Kotsine Mountain is in the centre of 7359  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 photograph number two there.  And then on photograph  2 number three is -- continues to be part of An skeexs  3 as part of the second lake.  Pardon me, on  4 photograph number three the lake, and that is the  5 area of Elmore Creek on the National Topographic  6 Series map.  7 Q   Where that lake is located?  8 A   Yes.  And that, once again, is a panorama of An  9 skeexs --  10 Q   Yes.  11 A   — From Djil Djila.  12 Q   Yes.  Now, if you'll go to page number eight.  It  13 appears in the -- that -- there appear to be three  14 photographs that have been matched together in the  15 top level, if you will, of the photographs.  So we  16 have broken here somewhat of your sequencing of one,  17 two, three, four and we have five on this page.  18 What does that matching indicate?  19 A  Well, actually what you have is that little sliver of  20 a photograph is cut off.  It didn't fit in.  And it  21 fits right on the edge of the one, two, three, the  22 third photograph.  It was cut off to fit in here.  23 And it's part of Djil Djila.  The -- you can see  24 the -- if you go to the far left of number -- photo  25 number one you are looking at Kotsine Mountain, just  26 the end of it, the northern slope which then leads  27 into Gallix No'ohl Loobit, and then in the middle of  28 coming through all three pictures is a series of  29 meadows and a creek runs through there, and that is  30 Xsi Djil Djila.  31 Q   Is there an English name for that?  32 A  Well, I think it's Condit Creek, C-O-N-D-I-T.  And  33 then the lower left -- the lower left photograph  34 with the waterfall in the centre that's Xsi Djil  35 Djila.  That is a point -- we're now airborne and  36 we're out east of Djil Djila and quite close to the  37 Driftwood River, Sxan Togasxw, and looking back and  38 taking that photograph.  39 Q   That little piece in the bottom right in my photocopy  40 it appears as though it's attached in the photo  41 itself, on the right hand side of the photo, is that  42 right?  43 A   I'm not sure what you're saying.  44 Q   The sliver, as you called it, on the photograph  45 that -- in the photocopy is attached to the right  46 hand side of the photograph?  47 A   Yes, it is. 7360  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 Q   And that's on Djil Djila?  2 A   Yes.  3 Q   Please go to page nine.  These are panorama shots on  4 the two -- one and two and three and four?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And you have Djil Djila indicated cutting through  7 photographs three and four.  Is this the whole of  8 that range Djil Djila, or is it just the photograph,  9 or excuse me, the mountain in the middle of the  10 photograph?  11 A   Photographs number three and four are part of Djil  12 Djila.  It continues on out of photograph number  13 four to the right.  We're airborne over Xsan  14 Togasxw, the Driftwood River, and looking west in  15 photographs three and four.  And in photographs one  16 and two we're in approximately the same location,  17 but looking north up Xsan Togasxw to Bear Lake.  You  18 can see Bear Lake on the edge, on the very left hand  19 edge mid picture in photograph number one, and you  20 can see a --  21 Q   That's — yes.  All right.  22 A   You can see parts of the Driftwood River coming down  23 there in the left half of that photograph.  And then  24 in photograph number two we're looking at T'sim  25 go'ohl yip.  It's another area named the same as the  26 other one that we were looking at from Djil Djila,  27 but this one is near Bear Lake.  Here it would be  28 identified on the map as Tsaytut Spur.  29 T-S-A-Y-T-U-T.  30 Q   Where is that?  31 A   Photograph number two.  If you follow what appears to  32 be -- could be B.C. Rail in the middle of the  33 picture it goes straight up to the top.  It points  34 to the top.  That range that runs almost half way  35 across the picture from the left quarter to about  36 midway, that ridge is Tsaytut Spur, and that is  37 T'sim go'ohl yip.  38 Q   That's the name that's given on the photocopy, is it?  39 A   Yes.  And then behind it is a white peak at the almost  40 mid picture, some snow on a peak, and that is Tsim  41 An Togasxw.  And on a map that would appear in the  42 area of Coccola Mountain or Coccola Peak,  43 C-O-C-C-O-L-A, and Peteyaz Peak, P-E-T-E-Y-A-Z.  44 Q   Okay.  Now, if you'll go to page ten, indicated on the  45 photograph number one is Dam Smaex.  I think we know  46 that as Bear Lake?  47 A   Yes. 7361  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1  Q  2  3  4  A  5  6  7  8  9  THE COURT  10  A  11  12  13  MR RUSH:  14  Q  15  A  16  17  18  Q  19  A  20  21  Q  22  A  23  Q  24  A  25  Q  26  A  27  28  29  30  31  Q  32  A  33  34  35  36  Q  37  38  39  A  40  Q  41  A  42  43  44  THE COURT  45  46  A  47  THE COURT  All right.  I'd ask you, if you will, please, to look  at photograph number four.  Can you indicate what  direction we're looking in?  Here we're looking north, and we're looking towards  the valley that's in the more or less the centre of  the picture.  Between the mountains is Xsi Gwin  Gyila'a, and on the map that would appear as  Squingula.  S-Q-U-I-N-G-U-L-A.  :  Squingula Valley?  Yes. And on the right hand side is -- the mountains  that sweep up to the right, that is the far one in  the —  That is to say the one in the distance?  Actually there is -- on the right hand side there are  three distinct, more or less distinct mountain  features.  The first one --  Moving from the right to the left?  Yes.  You would move from Tsim An Togasxw, and the  next one is Saa Hahla Gyoot.  That's indicated --  There's snow on it.  That's indicated as a named feature in the photocopy?  Yes.  Does that have an English name?  I can't recall whether it has or not, but the next one  is Lax Anx Xsan.  You can see it's shaded.  It's a  couple of little peaks at the northern extension of  those -- of the mountains on the right, and that's  Lax Anx Xsan.  Is there an English name on the maps for that one?  No, there isn't.  And if you continue down below those  there is another mountain or another hill and that's  called Gwi yoo.  There is no English name for that  either.  On the photocopy there is indicated the name for a  feature that you have identified as Tarn Gwaattii  dawdit.  Yes.  What does that refer to?  Tarn Gwaattii dawdit means a lake without ice.  And  it's on the map as Drift Lake, and it's in that area  up through the valley there.  :  Is that one of those airstrips that we see in the  centre foreground?  In number?  :  Number four on page ten. 7362  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  1 A   No, there is no airstrip there.  That's the reflection  2 in the bubble of the helicopter.  3 THE COURT:  Oh, all right.  4 A   If we're looking at the same feature.  5 THE COURT:  Yes, I'm sure we are.  Should we adjourn, Mr. Rush?  6 MR. RUSH:  All right.  7 THE COURT:  Thank you.  8 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until two.  9  10 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)  11  12 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  13 a true and accurate transcript of the  14 proceedings herein to the  15 best of my skill and ability.  16  17  18 Peri McHale, Official Reporter  19 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 7362  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Discussion  1 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED)  2  3 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Delgamuukw versus Her Majesty  4 the Queen at bar.  5 THE COURT:  Mr. Rush.  6 MR. GRANT:  My lord, before Mr. Rush commences, I have just  7 delivered a Notice to Admit to both defendants.  The  8 only point is, and I -- they may wish to consider  9 it, is this refers to the atlas which was marked  10 already as an exhibit and its additional maps.  11 Rather than having to repeat giving the maps that I  12 have already delivered to the Provincial Defendant,  13 to them with the Notice to Admit, I would be asking  14 them to agree that the previous delivery of those  15 maps, that they would accept those as being the  16 copies of rather than attaching new copies to them  17 just as -- as a -- in other words, there are several  18 maps that have been delivered already with the  19 atlas.  Those are -- form part of the Notice to  20 Admit.  I have delivered all of those maps to the  21 Federal Crown because they didn't have them in the  22 same form as the Province, but I would be asking the  23 Province to -- Provincial Defendant not to require  24 delivery attachment of copies of the maps again to  25 the Notice to Admit.  26 THE COURT:  Is that the atlas that had the blueberries and  27 the —  28 MR. GRANT:  Yes, this is the blueberries and animal maps.  All  29 of them have already been delivered.  30 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, if my friend is asking us to waive the  31 requirement of the rule with respect to a copy of a  32 document enclosing the Notice to Admit, I agree.  33 MR. GRANT:  I agree.  34 THE COURT:  Is that the document I have just had handed me here?  35 MR. GOLDIE:  No.  That, my lord, is the Notice to Admit with  36 respect to the photographs.  37 THE COURT:  Yes, all right, that we marked this morning.  38 MR. GOLDIE:  And were given numbers this morning, yes.  39 THE COURT:  All right, thank you.  40 MR. RUSH:  Now, my lord, I am -- I am prepared to deal with the  41 question of the qualification of Mr. Sterritt,  42 indicated to my learned friends at the break that I  43 would be willing to move to that at this time and I  44 am prepared to do that.  45 THE COURT:  Thank you.  Do you wish to examine the witness  46 further on his qualifications?  47 7363  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  on Qualifications  1 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF ON QUALIFICATIONS BY MR. RUSH:  2 Q    I have one or two more questions, my lord.  I should  3 say that by way of the area of expertise, my lord, I  4 am tendering Mr. Sterritt as an expert in the  5 translation -- excuse me, description and mapping of  6 the oral statements of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  7 hereditary chiefs and house members, about their  8 house territories, boundaries and place names, and  9 the transfer of these territories, boundaries and  10 place names to one to 250,000 National Topographic  11 Series Map.  And I don't intend to ask too many  12 further questions.  I have canvassed Mr. Sterritt's  13 expertise.  Yes, excuse me.  14 Now, in addition to the questions, my lord, that  15 I have already asked of Mr. Sterritt concerning his  16 expertise, I want to ask one or two further  17 questions and they are these:  Mr. Sterritt, you  18 have already testified that you worked in the field  19 of minerals exploration for a period of 11 years, I  20 believe?  21 A    Yes, I did.  22 Q    And in the course of that work and over that period  23 of time I think you testified that you located  24 certain features on the ground?  25 A    Yes, I did.  26 Q    And what were those features that you located?  27 A    They were rock types, mineralized areas, sample  28 locations of -- based on soil samples or silt  29 samples, rock samples that we took in the course of  30 assessing a given area that we were doing minerals  31 exploration in.  It ranged from prospecting to  32 geochemical surveys and geophysical surveys.  33 Geochemical surveys being the taking of silt, and  34 soil samples for chemical analysis, and geophysical  35 surveys being the application of geophysical methods  36 such as an electric current through the ground based  37 on two electrodes, and airborne surveys where you  38 would have to determine locations on the ground as  39 well.  40 Q    And having done that, what did you then do following  41 those locations?  42 A    Well, ordinarily we used air photos and maps at a  43 scale of one to 250,000 to locate where the sample  44 had been taken, and we would locate that on a  45 feature -- on the air photo or on the map and,  46 subsequent to that, we would transfer the  47 accumulation of information about rock features, 7364  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  on Qualifications  1 soil types and anomalous areas.  We would transfer  2 that information to maps at our base camp and at the  3 end of a field season we would transfer that  4 information on to other maps at a larger scale in  5 the office in Vancouver.  6 Q    And what percentage of your field work time was  7 devoted to doing the work that you have just  8 described?  9 A    Out of the 11 years, in the first five or six years  10 approximately 80 percent of my time was spent  11 working on and with maps and carrying out this  12 process that I have described.  13 Q    And after that five-year period?  14 A    It began to flip over.  The earlier basis was 80  15 percent field work and map work, and about 20  16 percent administration and report writing.  After  17 that first five years, it flipped over to -- over a  18 short period of time to become 80 percent  19 administration and 20 percent field work, and  20 involved the supervision of persons who were in the  21 information gathering stage; in other words, the  22 work I had been doing was information gathering and  23 assessment of that information.  Other people became  24 involved in the information gathering and I  25 supervised some of that work.  26 Q    And they were involved in similar -- were they  27 involved in similar types of work as you had  28 previously been doing in the first five years of  29 your experience in mineral exploration?  30 A    Yes, they were.  31 Q    And how did this field experience that you have  32 described apply to the research which you  33 subsequently did in determining the boundaries and  34 territories of the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  35 hereditary chiefs?  36 A    It is almost identical.  It's almost identical in  37 the sense that I had to identify a feature based on  38 a description of a hereditary chief.  At first, I  39 did that not necessarily in the field because we  40 simply didn't have the means to get to the field.  I  41 was information gathering based on my experience and  42 knowledge of a good part of the Gitksan and some of  43 the Wet'suwet'en territory, and then it became  44 information gathering in the field, and taking that  45 information, locating it on a map, and then working  46 with the information that I acquired or that others  47 acquired and attempting to draw some conclusions 7365  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  on Qualifications  from that information.  And did you have a familiarity with the Gitksan and  Wet'suwet'en laws and language, culture and society  when you were doing that work?  Well, that's a leading question, patently leading.  What kind of familiarity did you have, Mr. Sterritt,  with Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en society?  Surely the question is:  What other knowledge do  you claim to have that is of assistance to you as an  expert.  MR. RUSH:  MR. GOLDIE:  MR. RUSH:  MR. GOLDIE:  MR.  RUSH:  Q  A  Q  A  That's a good question.  Mr. Sterritt, in terms of  your knowledge, what other knowledge did you have  that would assist you as an expert?  The mapping of Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en features  requires a knowledge of how the Gitksan and  Wet'suwet'en features or Gitksan/Wet'suwet'en  hereditary chief's name features.  What I mean by  that is a creek on a map could have a single English  name over a 15-mile length of that creek and yet  within that 15-mile length could have three  different Gitksan names.  So it required a knowledge  that the names could vary.  It required an  understanding of the Gitksan language or required  the assistance of an interpreter in situations in  order to understand what -- what it was being  relayed.  It required an understanding of how  mountains are identified and named because a single  mountain -- what would be one mountain range on a  map could have three or four different names.  It  required knowledge of how the Gitksan/Wet'suwet'en  could own according to the house and crest system.  For example, the Wolf, a Wolf house and a Fireweed  house would have different territories and, if they  were contiguous, there would be a boundary between  them.  In some situations, a height of land could form a  boundary between two hereditary chiefs but also one  would have to be aware that a trail could be a  boundary, that in some circumstances a boundary  could cross a creek rather than run up and down it.  And these are some of the areas that were important  to the mapping of the features and of the --  ultimately of the boundaries of the Gitksan and  Wet'suwet'en.  And how was this knowledge obtained by you?  I obtained the information by conducting interviews 7366  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  In chief by Mr. Rush  on Qualifications  with the hereditary chiefs.  The information was  brought forward by the hereditary chiefs directly to  me.  They made a point of informing me and trying to  teach me about these matters.  And -- but generally  through extensive interviews over a long period of  time I gained this expertise.  Q    And over what period of time was that?  A    It ranges over a period of 15 years from 1973 until  the present.  Q    Okay.  And when you were involved in your work with  the mineral companies and mineral explorations, you  indicated that you located certain features on maps.  What kind of maps were they?  A    They were different maps.  The National Topographic  Series is one set of maps that we used.  If I recall  correctly, about the turn of -- early into the  1960's, there was another series that were being  used and I don't recall what they were, but  basically the NTS series it's called, we use those,  and then the companies that I worked for had  draftsmen who prepared more detailed maps for  company use on which detailed information was placed  based on a given property, meaning a number of  claims, minerals claims that were -- that the mining  company owned and had assessed through detailed  means.  Q    And were maps of the kind that you have just  described used over the 11 years of your work in  mineral explorations?  A    Yes.  Q    And were similar types of maps used in relation to  the information gathering that you did in respect of  the hereditary -- the Gitksan/Wet'suwet'en  hereditary chiefs?  A    Yes.  MR. RUSH:  Those are my questions with respect to Mr. Sterritt's  qualifications.  THE COURT:  Thank you.  Mr. Goldie or Mr. Macaulay?  CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. GOLDIE ON QUALIFICATIONS:  Q    Mr. Sterritt, would you state for his lordship again  please just precisely what it is that you regard  yourself an expert in?  A    I am -- I have expertise in the mapping of Gitksan  topographic geographic features on maps at various  scales.  I have an expertise in understanding how  the Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en name and identify 7367  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 features.  2 Q    Then you say you are an expert in that?  3 A    I consider myself to be an expert in that area.  4 Q    Yes.  Go on, please?  5 A    The -- through my knowledge of how Gitksan and  6 Wet'suwet'en people name features, I have an  7 expertise in translating that information onto maps  8 in order to come up with the features that would be  9 contained within a house territory of a Gitksan or a  10 Wet'suwet'en chief as well as the knowledge  11 necessary to identify boundaries around a house  12 territory.  13 Q    What is the special knowledge required to identify a  14 boundary?  15 A    The understanding what a boundary is for a Gitksan  16 house; that two isolated features, for example, a  17 creek or several creeks and the intervening land  18 that might encompass those creeks, what could be the  19 boundary of a Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en house.  20 Q    That knowledge of course is the same knowledge as  21 the hereditary chiefs themselves?  22 A    Yes.  The hereditary chiefs have that knowledge as  23 well.  24 Q    And they have the knowledge of how they name  25 features?  26 A    Yes, they have, and that's -- they are the persons  27 whom I learned that information from.  28 Q    And they of course are the people who can identify  29 features?  30 A    Yes, and the hereditary chiefs have identified many  31 of those features.  32 Q    So that the skill that you possess and that they do  33 not possess I take it is translating information  34 given by them to you onto a map?  35 A    Many of the hereditary chiefs have mental maps of  36 their house territory.  They are not skilled in the  37 use of maps because of scale because a map contains  38 a variety of information that makes sense to  39 cartographers and map-makers, but the hereditary  40 chief does not -- cannot appreciate perhaps what  41 that information is, and I'll use an example --  42 Q    Excuse me.  43 A    Contour lines on a map --  44 Q    Excuse me, Mr. Sterritt.  My question was directed  45 to your skill, and I am suggesting to you that your  46 skill consists of your ability to translate  47 information given by them to you onto a map.  Isn't 7368  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 that the sum and substance of your particular skill  2 not possessed by the hereditary chiefs?  3 A    Yes, that would be correct.  4 Q    Now, with respect to that skill which I take to be  5 the transformation of spoken or other information  6 onto a map, this is the skill of a map-maker or a  7 land surveyor?  8 A   A map-maker or a land surveyor not familiar with the  9 Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en culture or way of  10 identifying features would find -- would have a very  11 difficult time doing that job.  For example, a  12 mapper -- a map-maker as such would take information  13 that is provided to them by other persons and simply  14 draw on a map what is already provided, and they  15 would -- they would be true to that but, in order to  16 gather the information from hereditary chiefs and  17 arrive at a -- as close an -- or an accurate  18 representation of the territories of a hereditary  19 chief and the features would have to be familiar  2 0 with the culture and the way of naming.  21 Q    Yes.  I was speaking in more general terms that the  22 transformation of information spoken or observed  23 from the ground onto a map is the skill of a  24 map-maker; is that not correct?  I should have said  25 transformation of that information onto a map  26 accurately is the skill of a map-maker or a surveyor  27 in general terms?  28 A    Yes.  29 Q    Now, I just want to be sure that I have understood  30 some of your earlier evidence.  I take it that your  31 educational qualification which is relevant here is  32 your course at B.C.I.T. on Mining Technician -- is a  33 Mining Technician course at B.C.I.T.?  34 A    Yes.  I have a diploma in Mining Technology from  35 B.C.I.T.  36 Q    Right.  Now, there is a course at B.C.I.T. on  37 surveying but you didn't take that course?  38 A    There is a Surveying Technology Programme and you  39 come out with a diploma of Surveying Technology.  40 There are a number of courses that are stressed in  41 that technology.  The programme that I went through  42 included some of the courses that surveying  43 technologists take.  44 Q    What you might say elementary surveying?  45 A    It may be identified as elementary but it is a  46 two-year programme and you come out with the ability  47 as a Mining Technician to be able to do -- or to be 7369  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 able to use a transit and to use tables to do a  2 proper survey of, let's say, mining claims or of  3 diamond-drill holes in location to a given site, and  4 certainly you don't end up with the advanced  5 techniques involving other surveying methods that  6 were developing at the time in 1965 and '66.  I am  7 talking about a lazor, I believe it is.  I don't  8 have the exact word, but there were new methods  9 developing at the time and we didn't get involved in  10 those but the surveying technology did.  11 Q    The two-year course to which you refer is the Mining  12 Technician's course?  13 A    That's right.  14 Q    And you required for that no previous work  15 experience?  There is no previous work experience  16 required as a condition to entering that course, is  17 there?  18 A    No.  19 Q    And your academic qualifications for entering the  20 course was what, Grade 12 algebra and Grade 11  21 chemistry?  22 A    Yes, except that I spent a winter in Vancouver  23 upgrading my physics and algebra.  24 Q    Yes.  I am referring to the requirements for anybody  25 to enter the course?  26 A    That's right.  27 Q    Yes.  And the course includes geology?  28 A    Yes.  29 Q    But you don't classify yourself as a geologist?  30 A    I am a Mining Technologist.  31 Q    Yes.  And there was -- there were courses with  32 respect to the actual business of mining?  33 A    Yes.  34 Q    And there were six hours applied chemistry a week;  35 is that right?  36 A    Yes.  37 Q    And drafting fundamentals, two hours a week?  38 A    Yes.  There was a drafting course.  39 Q    Yes.  And would I be correct in my understanding  40 that there was -- that in the surveying course you  41 were introduced to the business of map reading and  42 map interpretation?  43 A    I don't recall the exact -- I haven't reviewed the  44 calendar of 1964, but yes, I think there was in  45 surveying that there was -- that was part of the  46 programme as well.  47 Q    What might be termed a map reading component of that 7370  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 course?  2 A    How to -- how to take a map and to understand what's  3 on it.  4 Q    Yes, precisely.  There is a map-making course at  5 Camosun College, is there not?  6 A    I don't know.  7 Q    Now, you are not a B.C. Land Surveyor?  8 A    No, I am not.  9 Q    And as I understand what you have told me, the  10 educational qualification that you received relates  11 to map using in the sense that you were given an  12 understanding of the conventional signs used on  13 government maps?  14 A    Yes.  15 Q    You know what I mean by conventional signs?  16 A    Well, there is a legend contained on a map and it  17 has keys as to certain symbols which appear within  18 the map.  19 Q    Yes?  20 A    So —  21 Q    And the grid system?  22 A    Yes.  23 Q    And an understanding of scale?  24 A    Yes.  25 Q    What do you understand one to 50,000 to mean?  26 A    One to 50,000 is a rough translation, is  27 approximately one inch to -- pardon me, one mile on  28 the ground equals a little over an inch on the map.  29 Q    Yes.  Well, the precise relationship would be one to  30 63,365.  That would be an inch on a map equals a  31 mile on the ground, would it not?  32 A    That could be, yes.  33 Q    Which is the larger, one to 50,000 or one to  34 500,000?  35 A    Well —  36 Q    Which is the larger scale I should say?  37 A    In terms of scale, I often forget which way -- which  38 is the designation, whether it is smaller or larger.  39 Generally I use one to 50,000 as being the larger,  40 the larger scale, because it's more detailed, but  41 that may not be accurate, but I know how to  42 translate from one to 250,000, from one to 500,000,  43 down to one to 50,000.  I know how to take an area  44 within a one to 50,000 map and how to convert it  45 into a larger map using a grid within that area.  46 Q    Yes.  47 A   And to convert it to a scale that would be 7371  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 convenient to me or to whoever requires the map.  2 Q    The larger the scale the more information you can  3 get on the map; isn't that right?  4 A    Yes.  5 Q    And the one to 50,000 is a larger scale than one to  6 500,000?  7 A    Well, if that's accurate, I mean, as a designation,  8 that's right.  You can get more detail in a given  9 area on a one to 50,000 than you can on a one to  10 500,000 scale map.  11 Q    And you used one to 250,000, didn't you?  12 A    In the 1970's, the only money that -- I mean, it was  13 my own money that I was spending and I could only  14 afford to buy the one to 250,000 mile scale maps.  15 Q    And you have done that throughout?  16 A    I have referred to one to 50,000 from time to time.  17 Yes, I have used that scale.  18 Q    I don't recall seeing any maps produced by you one  19 to 50,000?  20 A    That's correct.  In the last year, as I have  21 verified information and checked it, I have referred  22 to one to 50,000 scale maps.  23 Q    Now, how do you determine distance on the map?  24 A    There are several ways.  One way is simply to apply  25 the scale that's on the bottom of a map, transfer  26 that to a piece of paper so that it is accurate with  27 the map, and then measure the straight line distance  28 between two features that you are mapping or that  29 you are trying to determine.  Another way is to use  30 a wheel which is calibrated according to the scale  31 of the map one to 50,000.  You can adjust the scale  32 and run the wheel across the surface.  In this case,  33 you can -- you don't have to go along straight line  34 distances.  You can run up a river and follow it and  35 determine a distance closer to what would occur on  36 the ground.  Generally, a lot of the distances that  37 I have used, unless I am trying to sort out a very  38 specific feature amongst a number, I would simply  39 use a straight line distance and the straight line  4 0                measurement.  41 Q    When you say the straight line measurements, using  42 the scale at the bottom of the map?  43 A    Yes, rather than the wheel.  But I have resorted to  44 using a wheel from time to time.  45 Q    Do you recall what you did when you approved the  46 metes and bounds description that Mr. Marvin George  47 prepared with respect to the map which is appended 7372  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 to the Statement of Claim, the latest Statement of  2 Claim?  3 A    I simply reviewed the metes and bounds.  4 Q    You didn't verify the distances?  5 A    No, I didn't.  What Marvin George -- what I  6 understand Marvin George did in that case --  7 Q    Well, we can let him speak for himself later on.  8 You used a topographic map, didn't you?  9 A    Yes.  10 Q    And that shows contours?  11 A    Yes.  12 Q    And you're fully familiar with vertical intervals?  13 A    Yes, I am.  14 Q    And you're able to determine the gradient or a slope  15 of a feature from a map, are you?  16 A    Yes.  In my field work in -- with the mining  17 company, a lot of the pace and compass work we did  18 or chain and compass in order to transfer the -- to  19 be sure that we had the right horizontal distance to  20 identify where our points were, we had a conversion  21 factor that we used for slope and converted the  22 diagonal distance or the vertical distance to  23 horizontal, and we had a -- when we did that, we had  24 a small reference chart that we could use for  25 different angles between of course -- well, any  26 angle away from the horizontal.  27 Q    That would have -- that solved the Algebraic problem  28 that you would have had if you didn't have that  29 little conversion factor?  30 A    Well, it was much simpler but, when I did surveying  31 with the transit in the field, I converted the  32 vertical and the horizontal distances as well.  33 Q    Yes, but the question I asked you was:  Can you  34 determine from a map with topographic features the  35 slope of a feature?  36 A    Yes, I can.  37 Q    Yes, and you have done that?  38 A    I have done that.  39 Q    Yes.  40 A    I have done sections of areas to try and  41 determine -- from a plane survey, I have drawn lines  42 across a series of features.  43 Q    Yes?  44 A   And using the -- by marking off on that straight  45 line where the -- where the contours occur on that  46 line and the distance between them transferred that  47 information to the slope that you are referring to 7373  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 and therefore come across with say a section of a  2 mountain, a face-on view of a mountain or a hill or  3 any number of features, and it will -- you can  4 arrive at a fairly close determination of what that  5 mountain should look like based on the line that  6 goes across it.  7 Q    Exactly.  Everything that you have referred to is  8 the sort of thing that is taught a soldier in his  9 basic training, or maybe you are not familiar with  10 that, but it is basic training in respect of map  11 using and I referred my word map using to include  12 topographic maps?  13 A    I have not taken any soldier's training.  I acquired  14 these skills in the field and at B.C.I.T. and have  15 developed those skills in the field.  16 Q    I have here a pamphlet called An Introduction To  17 Maps, and it shows conventional signs.  That's the  18 sort of thing that you are familiar with?  19 A    I am not familiar with this pamphlet but the symbols  20 that you are referring to in the pamphlet, many of  21 those appear on any standard NTS map.  22 Q    Right.  At the bottom of that, below Conventional  23 Signs, it says Contour Line, then it shows --  24 depicts exactly the process that you are talking  25 about, that is, determining the gradient or slope of  26 a feature by joining the lines -- equal contour  27 lines and plotting the elevation from that?  28 A    Yes, but as I say, I haven't seen this before.  29 Q    No.  Well, it's simply a pamphlet that is entitled  30 An Introduction of Maps, B.C. Ministry of  31 Environment.  What I am getting at, Mr. Sterritt, is  32 that all of the things you have described are the  33 sort of thing that any user of topographic feature  34 maps is familiar with?  35 A    Well —  36 Q    Scale, conventional signs, contours, orientation,  37 the grid system.  These are all matters that you  38 have to become familiar with if you are even going  39 to use a map intelligently.  Wouldn't you agree with  40 that?  41 A    I think if you're going to use a map beyond simply  42 referring to creeks, lakes and mountains on it, then  43 you have to develop further skills, and I wouldn't  44 say that any user of a map would have those skills.  45 Q    I see.  Well now, if I understand what you have  46 done, you have in your identification of features  47 and in the work that you have done and that you have 7374  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 described to his lordship as part of your  2 methodology, you have taken information given you  3 and you have, what I call, extrapolated -- and by  4 that I mean this:  When Mr. Gunanoot talked about a  5 big meadow, you didn't confine your consideration  6 just to that meadow; you looked at it in a broader  7 context.  Would you agree with that?  8 A    I think you should explain yourself further on that.  9 Q    Well, I will put the question a little differently.  10 The information that you obtained, and I will use  11 the example that you gave yesterday which is a  12 little fresher in our minds, of Jackson Flats, and  13 you said that one of your informants indicated to  14 you that that referred to a territory as well as a  15 particular geographic feature?  16 A    Yes.  17 Q    That's what I meant by extrapolation of information?  18 A    Oh, an informant -- I was provided with some  19 information that connected feature or a name on a  20 map with the name of Gal Tsaphl Hasii Yeeks.  21 Q    I am going a step beyond that.  On the map are the  22 words Jackson Flats?  23 A    Yes.  24 Q    And that refers to a specific geographic feature?  25 A    Yes.  26 Q    And one of your informants indicated that it just  27 wasn't that feature, it was the name of the  28 territory or a territory?  29 A    People -- hereditary chiefs would refer to the Geel  30 territory at the head of the Skeena as Gal Tsaphl  31 Hasii Yeeks.  The specific area of Gal Tsaphl Hasii  32 Yeeks is in the vicinity of Jackson Flats but the  33 overall territory is sometimes referred to as Gal  34 Tsaphl Hasii Yeeks.  35 Q    What you did was you used your judgment in respect  36 of the information that was given you going beyond  37 the identification of a specific geographic feature  38 of the NTS map?  39 A   Are you referring to the name Jackson Flats?  40 Q    Yes, I am.  41 A    Well, no.  I didn't use my judgment to do that in  42 the sense that the Luus, Chris Harris, Steve  43 Morrison also referred to the larger area of Geels  44 as generally being Gal Tsaphl Hasii Yeeks, saying it  45 was the territory of Gal Tsaphl Hasii Yeeks although  46 the specific place name was within that territory.  47 Q    All right.  You were using -- you were using 7375  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 information from a variety of sources to arrive at a  2 conclusion as to the extent of territory which you  3 designated with a given name?  4 A    I didn't designate it with that given name.  5 Q    It was your informants; is that right?  6 A    Yes.  They -- that's how they referred to that  7 territory.  8 Q    But they didn't draw any lines on a map, did they?  9 A    No, not precise lines, that's right.  10 Q    No.  It was your judgment which is reflected in  11 those lines?  12 A    In parts of that territory, it is my judgment, and  13 in other parts it is information provided by the  14 informant.  15 Q    Yes.  And you're using judgment as to the extent of  16 what they are describing because they are not  17 drawing lines on the map; are they?  18 A    No.  19 Q    All right.  Now, I suggest you also were engaged in  20 the reconciliation of information.  Would you agree  21 with that?  22 A    Could you explain what you mean by that?  23 Q    Well, if you had information from one informant that  24 either disagreed with or didn't quite jive with  25 information from another informant, you used your  26 judgment in reconciling that dispirit information?  27 A    Sometimes it was difficult to determine exactly what  28 feature was being identified and that could be a  29 problem with either the interviewer, myself, or the  30 person that I was talking do.  And sometimes it may  31 appear as dispirit information or through a process  32 of discussion with different people could be the  33 same and I have to sort that out.  34 Q    Yes.  You were -- that's what I meant when I said  35 you were engaged in a process of reconciliation of  36 information?  37 A    Well, if that's part of the connotation or if that's  38 the connotation then, yes, I agree with that.  39 Q    And you were also engaged in the adaptation of  40 information?  41 A    What do you mean by that?  42 Q    By that I mean you read historical materials, for  43 instance, Barbeau Beynon?  44 A    My primary source of information is the hereditary  45 chiefs.  It always has been.  There are affidavits  46 which support that, and I also consulted some  47 historical information to see whether there might 7376  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 have been references to who the -- let's, for  2 example, say an explorer going through, who it was  3 they met with, and I sought that out as a secondary  4 source of information.  5 Q    But that went into -- was a factor in the judgment  6 that you applied as to where you put a line on the  7 map?  8 A    No.  I can't say that it became a factor as to the  9 judgment of where I put a line on a map.  The  10 hereditary chief's information did that.  The  11 presence of a hereditary chief in a given area  12 helped, but didn't mean that a lineman on a map as a  13 result of them being mentioned by an explorer.  14 Q    I didn't suggest that.  I said it was a factor in  15 your judgment as to where the line went?  16 A    You have to get more precise on that because it --  17 no, I can't say that it was a factor.  It became  18 supportive information, but the explorer could --  19 could have encountered a hereditary chief on the  20 territory next to his and that wouldn't necessarily  21 mean I drew a line further to the east or the west  22 or north or south.  23 Q    All right.  Well, I didn't say it would necessarily,  24 I simply said it was a factor which you took into  25 account, otherwise, why would you bother your head  26 about it?  27 A    Simply to review the historical records.  If they  28 encountered a hereditary chief or if it encountered  29 an Aboriginal person in, let's say, 1874, in a given  30 area, was that person Gitksan, was that person  31 Tahltan, or Sekani?  And it was an element that I  32 looked at.  33 Q    All right.  I am happy to use the word element.  And  34 it was an element which entered into your judgment,  35 wasn't it?  36 A    To a much lesser degree than the hereditary chiefs.  37 The primary focus was the hereditary chiefs.  38 Q    All right.  And I suggest that you became involved  39 to some extent at any rate in the interpretation of  40 historical events?  41 A    I familiarized myself with the historical record.  42 The information of the hereditary chiefs sometimes  43 to explain more fully about their territory, they  44 told me about their history, and I also reviewed the  45 written record.  4 6 Q    Well, the example that came to my mind was in Mr.  47 David Gunanoot's evidence.  He talked about battles 7377  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 with the Stikine and how that was resolved and how  2 in his view that contributed do his territory.  Do  3 you recall that?  4 A    Yes.  5 Q    Didn't you use that in determining where you would  6 draw lines on a map?  7 A    In the collection of information over a period of  8 time, I gathered information and I attempted to  9 extrapolate where a boundary might be.  10 Q    Yes?  11 A    That was an information gathering period.  In the  12 last two years, I have gone through what I call a  13 verification process where I have reviewed in  14 greater and greater detail with the hereditary chief  15 where that boundary goes and in many, many cases I  16 found that my extrapolation based on a much lesser  17 amount of detail and that based on the subsequent  18 work that the boundaries that I had extrapolated  19 subsequently would be moved to a more accurate  20 location according to the mental map of the  21 hereditary chiefs.  22 Q    Well, you feel more confident in the last result  23 than you do now with respect to the first result?  24 A    Oh, yes, I do.  25 Q    Yes?  26 A    In the -- in the very first map that I did in 1977,  27 I had some information and we came up with a general  28 description of the external boundaries of the  29 Gitksan and the Wet'suwet'en, and we have done --  30 gathered a lot of information since and, in the last  31 two years, far more.  32 Q    Yes, all right.  But if I understand what you are  33 telling me correctly, your -- the results that you  34 took from tales of past battles, for instance,  35 played a lesser part in your final effort because  36 you are more confident that you have identified  37 features according to what the hereditary chiefs  38 have told you.  Isn't that a fair way of putting it?  39 A    The process that I engaged in with the hereditary  40 chiefs in the past two years has built on increasing  41 amounts of detail and much more accurate ability to  42 locate where those features were, those features  43 are, and also to locate boundary lines based on  44 their knowledge along linear features, like creeks  45 or rivers, as well as heights of land and trails and  46 so on.  And I have -- they are much more precise.  47 They are a much better boundary. 7378  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 Q    Well, I don't want to get into that particular  2 aspect because this is confined to your  3 qualifications, and I was going to put to you that  4 with respect to all of the things that I have gone  5 through with you, you had no particular  6 educational -- formal educational qualifications?  7 A    I have probably -- I have in the past 15 years  8 built, on the previous experience that I have with  9 mapping and map identifying features and subsequent,  10 have built a very strong expertise in doing the  11 mapping that I have set out on the final map that  12 will appear with my opinion summary.  13 Q    Well, let me ask you one further question then:  Do  14 you now rule out the use of historical events in  15 your latest map?  Have you ruled out the use of  16 historical events?  17 A    The -- to the extent that a hereditary chief has  18 provided me with information about the location of  19 their boundary and that that boundary is located  20 there because of historical events, I cannot rule  21 that out.  They themselves have identified the  22 features and identified the boundary, and an example  23 of that is that Xoo or Treaty Creek which flows into  24 the Bell Irving River, that is a boundary area and  25 there is historical events that led to that but the  26 hereditary chief has identified that information for  2 7                me.  28 Q    My question was:  You have ruled out your own  29 judgment in relation to historical events?  Is that  30 what you are telling me?  31 A    To a large degree, yes, I have attempted to map the  32 boundaries as they have been told to me by the  33 hereditary chiefs.  34 Q    Now, I asked you if you were a B.C. Land Surveyor  35 and you answered no, but are you familiar with the  36 educational requirements of a B.C. Land Surveyor?  37 A    No, I am not.  38 Q    Do you know how long a B.C. Land Surveyor must  39 article before he may write his final examinations?  40 A    No.  I couldn't tell you that.  41 Q    I am instructed it is three years nine months  42 before, including 12 months on the field, before the  43 final exams may be written.  That doesn't ring a  44 bell with you?  45 A    No.  46 Q    Well, I want to direct your attention to the Land  47 Surveyors Act and ask you a few questions about 7379  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 that.  Now, page 10, the present Land Surveyors Act  2 begins, and I haven't included all of it.  3 A    Which page?  4 Q    Page 10, it is down at the lower right-hand corner,  5 a typed page number, Mr. Sterritt.  First, do you  6 see the page with Section 35 on it, it is page 11?  7 It is the next one.  And it reads:  8  9 "A person shall not be admitted as an articled  10 pupil in land surveying until he satisfies the  11 board of his knowledge of arithmetic,  12 mensuration..."  13  14 What's mensuration, Mr. Sterritt, or are you  15 familiar with that term?  16 A    I am not familiar with that term.  17 Q  18 "...algebra, plane and solid geometry".  19  20 Do you know what the difference is between plane and  21 solid geometry?  22 A    I don't recall what the distinction is between them.  23 Q  24 "Plane and spherical trigonometry".  25  26 You are familiar with trigonometry?  27 A    I have taken a course in trigonometry and the use of  28 logarithms.  29 Q    Do you know the difference between plane and  30 spherical trigonometry?  31 A    I don't recall.  32 Q  33 "Elementary physics".  34  35 You are of course familiar with that?  36 A    Yes.  37 Q  38 "The use of logarithms"?  39  40 A    Yes.  41 Q    You have used logarithms?  42 A    Yes.  43 Q    And those are the requirements prior to articling.  44 Now, in Section 40:  45  46 "Except as otherwise provided in this Act, a  47 pupil shall serve under articles for 3 years 9 7380  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 months, including at least 12 months' service  2 in the field in the Province."  3  4 And that may be shortend if the surveyor:  5  6 "...holds a degree of bachelor of applied  7 science in engineering, or a degree in  8 surveying, mathematics or the physical  9 sciences from the University of British  10 Columbia",  11  12 or equivalent, or:  13  14 "if he is a member in good standing of the  15 Association of Professional Engineers."  16  17 You are not a member of the Association of  18 Professional Engineers?  19 A    No, I am not.  20 Q    And the courses you took at the University of  21 British Columbia were in arts, were they?  22 A    Yes, English and History.  23 Q    And the examinations are set out at Section 43:  24  25 "No article pupil in land surveying shall be  26 admitted as a member until he has passed the  27 examination set by the board in the subjects  28 specified by the bylaws, which shall include  29 (a) laying out and dividing land."  30  31 I don't understand you to have told his lordship  32 that you have done that?  33 A    No.  The expertise that I have is in locating  34 features on the ground and identifying the Gitksan  35 and Wet'suwet'en name and in having an understanding  36 of the Gitksan language or, where required, to have  37 an interpreter assist me.  These are requirements  38 for something completely different.  39 Q    Well, they are the requirements for a land surveyor?  40 A    Yes, which I have an expertise in another area and  41 these are requirements for a land surveyor.  I have  42 some of the skills or I learned some of the skills  43 of a surveyor but I never did go any further than  44 that and I didn't intend to at the time.  45 MR. GOLDIE:  No.  And of course therefore you have not passed  46 the examinations in any of the items numbered A to H  47 inclusive? 7381  Proceedings  1 THE COURT:  Perhaps, Mr. Goldie, you will let him just read  2 those seven paragraphs during the short adjournment.  3 MR. GOLDIE:  Thank you, my lord.  4 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will recess.  5  6 (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED PURSUANT TO AN ADJOURNMENT)  7  8 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  9 a true and accurate transcript of the  10 proceedings herein, transcribed to the  11 best of my skill and ability.  12  13  14  15  16  17 TANNIS DEFOE, Official Reporter  18 United Reporting Service Ltd.  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  4 7 (PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT) 7382  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1  2 THE REGISTRAR:  Ready to proceed, my lord.  3 THE COURT:  Yes, Mr. Goldie.  4 MR. GOLDIE:  5 Q   Mr. Sterritt, would I be correct in my understanding  6 that your survey experience, or your experience in  7 the field generally, did not involve you in the  8 determination of boundaries?  9 A   The -- if you're referring to my experience in  10 minerals exploration to the extent that I had to  11 determine distinctions between two different rock  12 types or mineralized zones and apply -- apply a  13 certain amount of judgment as to where the -- the  14 boundaries between those two rock types occurred, or  15 locate them exactly, if the rock types were on  16 surface or we had conducted diamond drilling and  17 obtained accurate information through diamond  18 drilling and bringing samples to the surface and  19 then surveying down the hole, which I did, I used  2 0 ways of determining the various depths in a diamond  21 drill hole were, which way the core was going, the  22 drill pipe, the drill stem, at what angle, how it  23 varied from where we had anticipated that it would  24 go, to the extent that sometimes I had to  25 extrapolate and sometimes I had accurate information  26 then I came up with, or the people that I worked  27 with came up with a map that indicated boundaries  28 between two different rock types or mineralized  29 zones.  30 Q   You're speaking there in terms of boundary as being a  31 change in a geological structure from one to  32 another?  33 A   Yes.  34 Q   Do you recall being examined for discovery on the 25th  35 of February of 1987?  36 A   I recall the examination for discovery, I don't recall  37 the dates.  38 Q   Well, I'm going to read to you questions 219 to 224 in  3 9 volume one, my lord.  40 "Q   Did any part of your work involve  41 surveying?  42 A   Yes.  43 Q   And would you have undertaken survey  44 work in both of the areas that you have  45 identified in the claims area, namely  46 Hazelton and near Morice Lake?  47 A   That is survey as a general term.  There 7383  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 are many aspect as to surveying the  2 answer is yes, but --  3 Q   If you want to particularize the kind of  4 surveying that you did please do.  5 A   Used a transit and a plane table and  6 pace and compass.  Those are three  7 different types of survey.  8 Q   The object of this would be to fix the  9 location either of a claim or of a  10 particular feature?  11 A   That is correct."  12  13 Do you remember being asked those questions, and  14 did you give those answers?  15 A   Yes, I did.  16 Q   And they are true?  17 A   Yes.  18 Q   Question 223.  19  20 "Q  And the results of that surveying would  21 be included in the reports that you made  22 to your employer?  23 A   I should go back.  It was to fix a  24 feature, primarily a feature.  25 Q   You were not involved then in surveying  2 6 claims?  27 A   No."  28  29 Were you asked those questions, and did you give  30 those answers?  31 A   Yes, I did.  32 Q   And were those answers true?  33 A   Yes, those answers are true.  I did not survey,  34 conduct a survey of a mineral claim.  I did do some  35 transit work of diamond drill holes, the location of  36 diamond drill holes and a grid line that we had cut,  37 and we were locating where that was on the ground.  38 Q   Well, you were not chief of the party, of a survey  39 party, were you?  40 A   No, I wasn't.  41 Q   Now, you refer to a plane table, and I think you've  42 explained this in your -- in your evidence, and my  43 recollection is you stated it was for plotting  44 features on a plane or flat surface in a limited  45 space, and I believe you used this room as an  4 6 example?  47 A   Yes. 7384  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 Q   And the experience in that regard that you rely upon I  2 take it to be in volume 112, which is the transcript  3 for June 20th, 1988 at page 7015.  And at page 7015  4 you say at line 15, and this is 1964, that the  5 logging was shut down for the fire season and you  6 went out for a prospector who didn't know the area.  7 And that would be an occasion when you would be  8 using government maps?  9 A   Yes, we used government maps there.  10 Q   Right.  11 A   But we didn't do any plane table surveys there.  12 Q   No, I appreciate -- I should have indicated to you  13 that I was going to review some of your general  14 experience and then I'll come to the plane table.  15 A   Okay.  16 Q   And you say at line 23, "I went to work for Max and  17 went out to Xsi Andap Matx, north of Kisgegas."  18 That wasn't the name that was known to the  19 prospector or to you at that time, was it?  20 A   It was known to me, but not to the prospector.  It's  21 on the map as Goat Head Creek.  22 Q   Yes.  Page 7016 you gave your experience in two  23 further summers, and then you graduated from BCIT in  24 1966, is that right?  25 A   Yes.  26 Q   And I don't see anything in those summers with respect  27 to plane table work.  28 A   I assisted in plane table work at Galore Creek in  29 1962.  I didn't do it myself, but I knew what the  30 geologist who was doing the plane table work was  31 doing, and I was the rod man at that time.  32 Q   Yes.  33 A   I -- as I recall I did plane table work on a tributary  34 of Xsi gwin K'aat, Fiddler Creek.  35 Q   Well, that was with Kennecott?  36 A   No.  Well, Galore was with Kennecott -- Kennco.  37 Q   Yes.  38 A   It was 1967 that I did some plane table work in --  39 Q   For Max?  40 A   For Max, yes.  41 Q   All right.  And you put it as helping to do plane  42 table surveying.  That's correct, is it not?  43 A   In 1963?  44 Q   No.  I beg your pardon.  45 A   Page 7017, line 25, answer, well, one of the other  46 duties in the summer when I first worked for Max  47 was helping to do plane table surveying.  Is that 7385  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 1962?  2 A   No.  1962 was my first summer with Kennecott.  3 Q   Yes.  4 A   1964 was my first summer with Max.  5 Q   And was that helping to do plane table surveying?  6 A   If I remember right some was done at Luu ska Tee'it,  7 or near Tomlinson Mountain.  8 Q   Yes, but you were helping?  9 A   I was helping there, yes.  10 Q   Yes.  And, in fact, that is what you have done to the  11 extent that you have used a plane table?  12 A   No.  I have done some plane table work.  13 Q   Well, let me be sure that I've got this right then.  14 It is used for the location of features within an  15 area of about the size of this room?  16 A   Oh, it could be several acres.  It could be larger  17 than that.  What you end up with is a plane table  18 with a piece of paper on it, and whatever scale  19 you -- whatever area you want to survey within sight  20 can be transferred at the scale that you would  21 require to take all of that area on to a plane  22 table.  23 Q   Yes.  And —  24 A   So it could be a larger area than this room, but you  25 could also do an area like this room.  26 Q   Let me make sure I have your evidence correctly.  Page  27 7017, line 29;  28  29 "A   That is away of doing very detailed  30 mapping right on the ground and using a  31 plane table.  A plane table is something  32 a little bigger than this, about 24  33 inches by 24 inches.  You put a piece of  34 paper on it and then you have -- and you  35 orient it north and south, and you have  36 a survey instrument  that lays right on  37 it with a parallel line, and then the  38 job of someone like myself or someone  39 else was to go around with a stadia rod  40 so you would get angles and  41 distances...".  42  43 Now, just pausing there.  Were you correct in  44 giving -- is that -- were you accurate in giving  45 that evidence?  46 A  Which part?  47 Q   Just what I've read to you. 7386  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 A   Yes.  A person would go round and get -- use a stadia  2 rod and you would get your distances and angles from  3 that.  You would orient -- you'd have to have a  4 north arrow north and transfer the information based  5 on a north arrow onto the map.  6 Q   And you said someone like myself or someone else was  7 to go around with a stadia rod.  Someone like  8 myself.  You were talking about yourself as rod man?  9 A   I was talking about someone like myself.  I also did  10 some of that plane table work.  11 Q   I'll come to that, but the person who was operating  12 the survey instrument on the plane table was taking  13 angles, and then there would be distances done by a  14 chain, is that right?  15 A   You don't have to -- yes, you can use a chain, but you  16 don't have to.  17 Q   All right.  18 A  With a stadia rod you don't have to have -- you don't  19 necessarily use a chain.  2 0 Q   And you could -- and then continuing.  21  22 " you would get angles and  23 distances, and you through the machine  24 that was on the plane table you could  25 then draw maps, and you would have a  26 certain scale you would be using so you  27 could -- well, you could map an area the  28 size of this room quite easily, or twice  29 as big quite easily."  30  31 What you mean by that is you can map on the plane  32 table according to the scale what is within visual  33 sight?  34 A   Yes.  35 Q   And the primary use for that was the location of  36 features?  37 A   Yeah.  Well, you would -- from that you would be able  38 to do contour lines, you would be able to identify  39 where the geological features were.  Yes, rock  40 types, mineralized zones.  41 Q   But your employer was interested in outcroppings.  42 That was the kind of feature he was interested in,  43 wasn't it?  44 A  When you use the plane table you were interested in a  45 map of greater detail than you could get from any  46 existing --  47 Q   Yeah. 7387  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  -- Government source.  Now, that's a far different proposition --  Excuse me.  Did you intend to read the rest of the  answer that you have just quoted except for the last  sentence?  EI:  No, I'11 read that.  And the last part of your answer was, "And I learned  to -- I learned what the process was, and I assisted  in doing that."  You --  Yes.  You were an assistant?  Yes.  Yes.  Thank you.  Now, that's a far different process  than a surveyor utilizes when he's establishing a  boundary, isn't that right?  A surveyor in establishing what kind of a boundary do  you mean?  Well, a boundary using monuments and laying out, to  use the words of the Land Surveyors Act, laying out  and dividing land.  Yes.  A surveyor generally works in reverse.  A  surveyor takes a map, applies a line to it and then  goes out and locates that line on the ground.  And  that is, yes, very much different.  Well, you say generally.  Does that --  Well, specifically too.  In unsurveyed territory when the surveyor is sent out,  for instance to survey the mineral claim, he is not  working from in the terms that you've just  described, is he?  Yes, he is.  What happens is when you're doing a  mineral claim is first of all the crew goes into an  area using generally just pace and compass.  Yes.  It's staked?  Cuts a line as when you stake the claim.  Yes.  And you blaze trees and set up monuments.  That's right.  The surveyor comes along later and surveys what you  have put onto the ground.  He surveys by determining what is on the ground  accurately tied into the provincial system, isn't  that correct?  Yes.  Yes.  Now, that's something far different than the  description you've given us of your work on the  plane table?  1  A  2  Q  3    ]  MR. RUSH  4  5  6    ]  MR. GOLD  7  Q  8  9  10  A  11  Q  12  A  13  Q  14  15  16  A  17  18  Q  19  20  21  A  22  23  24  25  Q  26  A  27  Q  28  29  30  31  A  32  33  34  Q  35  A  36  Q  37  A  38  Q  39  A  40  41  Q  42  43  44  A  45  Q  46  47 73?  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  A   They are two different techniques.  Q   Yes.  And the second one is much closer to what has  been done in this case.  Namely, the development of  a metes and bounds description namely from monument  to monument establishing a boundary?  A  Well, the metes and bounds was established primarily  because of the lis pendens that the hereditary  chiefs wanted over the territory so as to identify  which property -- which deeded land and lots would  be affected by the lis pendens.  And that process,  it was a separate one from the process that I was  engaged in.  Q   Well, whatever it was, the one that is closest to  mapping as a land surveyor would understand it is  you've described as something done for the lis  pendens, I'm not familiar with that at the present  time, but the establishment of boundary lines is the  work of a land surveyor, and that's not what you  have done?  A   It's -- it's part of the work of a land surveyor, but  the hereditary chiefs over centuries have  established their boundary lines, and the work that  I have done is in relationship to the boundary lines  that they have established, and they did -- they  established those boundary lines without benefit of  a transit.  Q   The -- at page 7270, which is volume 113 -- 115.  I'm  sorry.  I'm sorry.  The page number again?  It's page 7270, my lord.  I'd like to place the transcript in front of him.  Yes.  By all means.  At line 32 Mr. Rush put this question to you.  "Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, in March of 1987 was  a metes and bounds description of a  Gitksan Wet'suwet'en territories  prepared that reflected certain changes  of the external boundary of the Gitksan  Wet'suwet'en territories?  A   Yes.  Q   Was that description a part of the  summary expert opinion report that was  prepared at that time by you?  A   Yes."  THE COURT:  MR. GOLDIE  MR. RUSH:  MR. GOLDIE  Now, in that question  in that answer were you 7389  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  referring to the lis pendens?  I was referring to the fact that a metes and bounds  was attached to the summary expert opinion report  that I prepared.  Yes, but the metes and bounds was not done by you?  No, it was not.  All right.  Thank you.  Well, did the map follow the  description or did the description follow the map?  The description followed the map.  And who prepared the map?  I prepared much of the map, Alfred Joseph and Leonard  George, and to a certain extent Glen Williams, but  Marvin George drafted the map.  All right.  Just one other point before I move on on  this question.  In your examination for discovery at  question 301.  Volume, please?  :  Volume one.  "Q   Have you taken any courses at any  educational institution in the history  of native peoples?  A   No, I haven't."  Were you asked that question, and did you give  that answer?  Yes, I did.  And it was true?  Yes.  And it is true?  I have over a period of time learned history from the  Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en people.  I have taken other  courses in history, but I have not taken a course at  any institution in Gitksan or Wet'suwet'en or other  Indian history.  Now, Mr. Sterritt, when you looked at the Chris Harris  map, and you've given evidence with respect to that.  Yes.  You endeavored to relate what you saw there by tracing  the natural features from a government map on to  your tracing of the Chris Harris map?  Say that again, please?  Well, let me put it another way.  When you traced the  Chris Harris map you added certain things to it?  Yes.  And one of them was some of the natural features?  Yes.  1  2  A  3  4  5  Q  6  A  7  Q  8  9  A  10  Q  11  A  12  13  14  Q  15  16  17  MR. RUSH:  18   :  MR. GOLDIE  19  Q  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  A  28  Q  29  A  30  Q  31  A  32  33  34  35  36  Q  37  38  A  39  Q  40  41  42  A  43  Q  44  45  A  46  Q  47  A 7390  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 Q   And you did that by overlaying a government map?  2 A   Underlaying a government map.  3 Q   Or underlaying a government map.  But the natural  4 features were copied from a government map?  5 A   Yes.  6 Q   And that is something that anybody with patience and  7 familiarity and -- patience and tracing paper and  8 some familiarity of map reading could do?  9 A   Yes.  10 Q   And you did the same thing with the trapline maps?  11 A   No.  That was a different -- that was a different  12 process because of the scale of the trapline maps  13 was different, and they had to be transferred as  14 best I could to the scale that I was using.  15 Q   That, again, is a process which is quite a common one  16 for map users?  17 A   For -- well, I think I would distinguish between map  18 users and people familiar with map work.  19 Q   It's not map making though, is it?  20 A  Well, I disagree with you on that.  What the result is  21 regardless of -- of the transfer process becomes a  22 map.  23 Q   Yes.  Well, transferring the line from one map to  24 another of different scales is surely not map  25 making?  26 A   It's part of a map making process.  27 Q   Well, then I take it that the maps that you were  28 speaking to at the time I objected to your evidence  29 are the product in part of history, genealogy,  30 anthropology, these are all factors which have taken  31 been into account and come into play, and the  32 information you have received from the hereditary  33 chiefs?  34 A   In order --no.  I have -- in terms of anthropology I  35 can't speak on that.  36 Q   Well, history?  37 A   History, genealogy, in order to determine why a given  38 person appears on a map or in a given area, and  39 whether or not they are part of the house that own  40 that area I have had to resort to -- I have done  41 some genealogical work.  42 Q   Yes.  43 A  And in order to try and trace back or project forward  44 who the proper owner is of that territory, and I  45 have relied on the statements of the hereditary  46 chiefs as to ownership of that area, but sometimes  47 it was necessary to review the genealogy to 7391  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 determine a connection between that person and the  2 house that -- that owned that territory.  3 Q   And in respect of that you did not apply any of the  4 practical skills that you learned in the mining  5 camps?  6 A  Well, that's a different analysis.  I didn't do any  7 genealogical work when I worked for a mining  8 company.  9 Q   No.  That's precisely my point.  That you in respect  10 to the extent that historical and genealogical  11 matters are reflected in the maps that you were  12 speaking to in your evidence earlier there is  13 nothing in your education of a formal character or  14 in your practical experience in the mining camps  15 that is reflected in those maps to the extent that  16 you contributed to them?  17 A   No, not from the mining camps, but the buildup of  18 expertise can occur on the ground in a unique and  19 special situation, and that's what I did.  20 Q   Let me ask you a couple of questions about hereditary  21 chief, because I believe that his lordship made  22 reference to that.  You held the name that you now  23 hold when you were examined for discovery in 1987?  24 A   Yes.  25 Q   And I take it that you didn't have to, if may use the  26 word, pass any tests when you took that name?  27 A   No.  Gitludahl, Pete Muldoe, and Dinii or  28 'Niisgimiinuu, Alvin Weget, felt they wanted to pass  2 9                that name along to me.  30 Q   Yes.  So that whoever invited you to accept that name,  31 and your subsequent acceptance of it, didn't examine  32 you with respect to your knowledge of the history of  33 the house or the history of the Gitksan people or  34 your knowledge of territories or the like, they were  35 satisfied that you had sufficient knowledge?  36 A   The hereditary chiefs are evaluating individuals all  37 the time, and determining in their own minds the  38 qualifications of an individual to take a name, and  39 to -- and whether to take a hereditary chief's name.  40 In terms of the House of Gitludahl I was adopted  41 into that house.  I have not undergone the rigorous  42 historical education similar to the type that  43 Tenimgyet, Art Mathews Jr. described when he was on  44 the stand.  There is a very rigorous process whereby  45 a person learns their house histories.  I am  46 familiar with some of the house histories of  47 Gitludahl.  Since I took the name I have learned 7392  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 more, but I do not have, and it will take some time  2 to acquire, the detailed and indepth knowledge of  3 the histories of Gitludahl.  4 Q   You were -- you were not a Gitksan until your adoption  5 in 1974 then?  6 A   Yes, by blood I was related to a Gitksan person, my  7 father, but I became -- when I was adopted by  8 Gitludahl, Moses Morrison, I was considered Gitksan  9 at that time.  10 Q   Yes, sir.  11 A   I have been considered since birth an Indian person by  12 the people of our area.  I was raised in that way.  13 But in terms of being adopted into a house that  14 occurred in 1974.  15 Q   Yes.  I want to refer you to volume two of your  16 discovery at page 823.  17  18 Q   Do you have any knowledge of Gitksan and  19 Wet'suwet'en laws which suggest or  2 0 require that when ownership and  21 jurisdiction is in question only the  22 person who claims that ownership and  23 jurisdiction can speak?  24 A  What I have been told by the hereditary  25 chiefs is they must speak to that.  I  2 6 can't.  27 Q   Mr. Sterritt, I know what you have been  28 told.  I'm asking you about your own  29 knowledge of Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en  30 laws.  Do you understand that?  31 A   I understand that you were asking me  32 about my knowledge of Gitksan and  33 Wet'suwet'en laws.  34 Q   All right.  Now, from your knowledge has  35 Gitksan and Wet'suwet'en laws got  36 anything to do with the directions given  37 you by the hereditary chiefs that you  38 are not to answer questions about their  39 title and jurisdiction?  40 A   They have -- you have to ask the  41 hereditary chiefs.  42 Q   No.  I am requesting you of your own  43 knowledge.  If you don't have knowledge  44 say so.  45 A   I have a limited amount of knowledge.  46 Q   I want you to speak from that limited  47 amount of knowledge. 7393  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 A   From that limited amount of knowledge I  2 am not sure whether that is part of the  3 law or why they did that."  4  5 Were you asked those questions?  6 A   Yes.  7 Q   And did you give those answers?  8 A   Yes.  The hereditary chiefs --  9 Q   Excuse me.  And are those answers true?  10 A   Yes, those are the answers I gave.  And the hereditary  11 chiefs had instructed me that I could not speak on  12 their histories or their laws, because they  13 themselves were the -- had to speak to the details.  14 And there was instructions that I was given.  The --  15 I was in a double bind.  The court was ordering me  16 to speak and they were ordering me not to.  I  17 respected that it created a problem.  18 Q   You stated that you didn't have very much knowledge?  19 A   In the context that was described by Art Mathews Jr.  20 where he himself went through a process of over a  21 period of four months of learning the histories of  22 his house, yes, I didn't have much knowledge, but I  23 have a knowledge of the histories of the Gitksan and  24 Wet'suwet'en.  And I am getting more information or  25 more detail about the histories of the house that I  26 belong to.  In the case of Nii kyap, David Gunanoot,  27 he had told the same histories to me over and over.  28 There is a situation where I did have more detail,  29 but I was under an order from the hereditary chiefs  30 not to speak it.  They themselves wanted to be  31 examined and come forward and deal with their own  32 histories and laws.  33 Q   And you don't know very much about the history of your  34 own house, do you?  35 A   I don't know all there is to know, but I'm learning  36 more about the history of my house.  I do know  37 something about it, yes.  38 Q   I'm going to refer you to your examination for  39 discovery at question 973.  Question -- and on page  40 105 you say -- now, I should say, my lord, that this  41 is a reference to a paper that the witness -- you  42 say quote --.  43 MR. RUSH:  Sorry.  What is the page?  44 MR. GOLDIE:  172, question 973.  45  46 "Q   On page 105 you say, 'What is the  47 evidence of title today.  Our house 7394  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 histories exist today.  We know what  2 they are.'  Would you give me the house  3 history of Gitludahl, please.  4 MR. GRANT:  If he knows it and if he is  5 authorized to give it.  6 MR. GOLDIE:  I would like you to enlarge,  7 please, Mr. Grant, on what you mean if  8 he is authorized to give it?  9 MR. GRANT:  All I'm saying is if this is one  10 of the areas that the chief says he is  11 not allowed to speak on he can say that.  12 MR. GOLDIE:  I want to make that perfectly  13 clear I do not accept the proposition  14 that the plaintiffs can dictate the area  15 of questioning in this examination.  If  16 the witness refuses to answer the  17 question on the basis that he is being  18 forbidden to that is something which I  19 don't accept.  20 Q   Now, Mr. Sterritt, what is the history  21 of the House of Gitludahl that you said  22 existed in September 8th, 1983?  23 A   I referred to a history of Gitludahl and  24 I don't know it.  25 Q   You don't know it?  2 6 A   No."  27  28 Were you asked those questions, and did you give  29 those answers?  30 A   Yes, I did.  31 Q   And they are true?  32 A   They were true.  I have learned more about the history  33 of Gitludahl since then.  34 Q   Since February of 1987?  35 A  Well, before that I knew some of the history about  36 Gitludahl, and now I know more about it.  37 MR. RUSH:  I think in fairness to the witness the next question  38 should be read.  39 MR. GOLDIE:  40 Q   This 976, my lord.  41 "Q   You say that under oath, Mr. Sterritt,  42 that you don't know the history of the  43 House of Gitludahl?  44 A   I don't know the detail of the history  45 of Gitludahl."  46  47 You were asked that question, and you gave that 7395  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 answer?  2 A   Yes, I did.  3 Q   And the answer is true?  4 A   Yes.  5 Q   Today?  6 A   I know more of the detail today, and I am continuing  7 to learn about the histories of Gitludahl.  8 Q   And I suggest you know no more about the history of  9 any house?  10 A   Repeat that question, please.  11 Q   I suggest to you that you know no more of the history  12 of any house than you know that of Gitludahl?  13 A   Oh, but I just pointed out to you, Mr. Goldie, Nii  14 kyap, David Gunanoot, I would guess in the  15 neighbourhood of six times has told me his -- a part  16 of his history.  17 Q   When did Mr. Gunanoot die?  18 MR. RUSH:  Well, before that question is answered maybe Mr.  19 Sterritt hasn't completed the answer to the last  20 question that was posed to him, and if he has more  21 to say I think he should be allowed to say it.  22 MR. GOLDIE:  Well, carry on, please.  23 A   Nii kyap, David Gunanoot, started talking to me in the  24 mid seventies, and he always sought me out and sat  25 me down and he talked to me about both the adaawk,  26 the histories of Nii kyap, Ant'imahlasxw, which are  27 the stories that he had learned.  And some of his  28 adaawk he repeated to me in the neighbourhood of  29 five or six times.  So have other hereditary chiefs  30 in the course of trying to explain something about  31 their territory, or have also told me some of their  32 history, but it would be untrue to say I don't know  33 anything about the history of the other houses.  34 Q   When did Mr. David Gunanoot die?  35 A   He died in the fall of 1987.  36 Q   So he was -- all right.  Now, I'm going to read you  37 question 980.  Well, I'm going to start at 977,  38 which follows the question that my friend asked me  39 to read.  Question 977.  40  41 "Q   What did you mean when you stated in  42 December 1983, 'Our house histories  43 exist today.  We know what they are.'?  44 A   Our refers to the Gitksan and  45 Wet'suwet'en people.  46 Q   If you want to tell me what those  47 histories are that are referring to 7396  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 proceed.  2 A   I can't tell you.  I know they exist.  3 The hereditary chiefs know them.  4 Q   But you don't?  5 A   I don't know the house history of  6 Gitludahl.  7 Q   Do you know the house history of any  8 house?  9 A   No.  You mean the detail of it?  I don't  10 know.  I know very little.  The  11 hereditary chiefs are the ones that must  12 answer that."  13  14 Were you asked those questions, and did you give  15 those answers?  16 A   I did, and --  17 Q   And are they true?  18 A   I did, Mr. Goldie.  19 Q   Excuse me.  I want an answer to that question.  Are  20 they true, the answers that you gave?  21 A   To the extent that the hereditary chiefs had  22 instructed me not to speak I was under -- I was  23 under -- I had a problem there, and I could not  24 speak to them.  25 Q   Are you under any restriction today?  26 A   The hereditary chiefs who have come to court have  27 related portions of their history, or in some cases  28 more.  I'm assuming that the instructions that I was  29 given then they have not been lifted, but I think  30 that there is -- I think there is a difference.  I  31 think that I could refer in a general way to some of  32 the histories.  33 Q   So the way out of the double bind that you perceived  34 yourself to be in was to plead ignorance in 1987, an  35 ignorance which you say you don't have today; is  36 that a fair way of putting it?  37 A  Well, I -- Mr. Goldie, in the previous question that I  38 answered I pointed out to you that I didn't know all  39 of the detail, and I didn't say -- in that earlier  40 question that was reminded to you by Mr. Rush I  41 pointed out that I knew some of the histories, but I  42 didn't know all of the detail that was necessary to  43 tell them, and that was the situation.  44 Q   Mr. Sterritt, the question I put to you was that in  45 order to escape the double bind that you described  46 you pleaded ignorance which you now say you don't  47 have, is that right? 7397  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 A  As I pointed out, I qualified my -- the points I was  2 making at the time in response to that other  3 question in the examination for discovery.  4 Q   All right.  I'm going to read one further question,  5 981.  6  7 "Q   But you have informed yourself -- when  8 you drew the outline of the boundaries  9 on the map you have informed yourself of  10 the matters from the chiefs?  11 A   Chiefs said where the boundaries are  12 Q   Yes.  And you transcribed that boundary,  13 did you?  14 A   That action doesn't translate into house  15 history necessarily."  16  17 Did you -- were you asked those questions, and did  18 you give those answers?  19 A   Yes, I did.  20 Q   And are they true?  21 A   Yes.  That I have spoken to that same question earlier  22 today, it's a similar question.  23 Q   Yes, but you -- you say now that history is an  24 ingredient of the house boundary?  25 A  Well, what I said in that question there is that the  26 action of drawing the boundary didn't necessarily  27 translate directly to history, but the hereditary  28 chiefs in ending up with a territory, house  29 territory at some point, particularly in the  30 external boundaries there may have been a historical  31 development, a historical event that led to that  32 boundary being where it was, but the action that I  33 took in receiving information from the hereditary  34 chiefs, and then being told about a boundary or  35 drawing a judgment about where the boundary went  36 between two points, that itself isn't a factor of  37 history -- isn't necessarily a factor of history.  38 MR. RUSH:  My lord, in fairness to the witness I think my  39 learned friend should ask the witness -- should ask  40 the witness about the next three questions he posed  41 in discovery.  42 MR. GOLDIE:  My friend can do that in re-examination, my lord.  43 Q   The -- Mr. Sterritt, you have stated, if I understand  44 you correctly, that historical events are reflected  45 in what the chiefs told you?  46 A   Yes.  47 Q   It is not necessary for you under those circumstances 7398  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 to have knowledge of those historical events?  2 A   I -- in terms of the process that we engaged upon in  3 the past year of hereditary chiefs doing affidavits  4 of the territories it isn't where they define their  5 boundaries, and they define their territories, it  6 isn't essential that I have detailed knowledge about  7 their histories to locate those features and to  8 define a boundary.  9 Q   By the way, we have had a number of affidavits  10 delivered recently, about a week ago.  They contain  11 the metes and bounds descriptions.  Are you  12 responsible for the descriptions in those  13 affidavits?  14 A   The descriptions in the affidavits arise out of a  15 process.  I wouldn't necessarily describe those as a  16 metes and bounds.  They are a written description of  17 the boundary.  But let me tell you how they are  18 arrived at.  19 Q   No.  I just asked you if you prepared them.  20 A   I'm partially responsible for them to this extent, I  21 prepared a first written description, I passed a  22 copy of that along to Marvin George or Richard  23 Overstall to assist with the written description.  24 What we dealt with in doing those descriptions is  25 the -- a detailed metes and bounds which would be  26 meaningless in terms of the mental map of the  27 hereditary chief, or in terms of sitting down with  28 him would be meaningless to him, and perhaps to you,  29 and I -- as well as opposed to the mental map that  30 the hereditary chief had, and so I had to move to a  31 middle ground, and I relied on the assistance of  32 Richard Overstall and Marvin George to come up with  33 the eventual description that was in there.  And  34 what I also did was went through a number of drafts.  35 I reviewed the first draft with the hereditary chief  36 who would be signing the affidavit, and went over it  37 a number of times to see whether the description was  38 what he understood the boundary to be, and in some  39 case went over it many times where the chief pointed  40 out that the area, either a feature or the area that  41 was within the house territory as he knew it was  42 accurate or not, and if it wasn't he corrected me  43 and I moved from there, but it was that kind of  44 process.  So I can't say that I completely prepared  45 the description in the affidavit.  I had assistance  46 with that.  47 Q   The three people including yourself went through a 7399  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1 process of juggling and adjusting?  2 A  Well, the hereditary -- I mean, there was the  3 definition that was necessary for Marvin George to  4 be able to map what was in the affidavit, and there  5 was the necessity for the hereditary chief to know  6 what was in the affidavit.  7 MR. GOLDIE:  I have no further questions.  8 THE COURT:  All right.  Thank you.  Will you have some  9 cross-examination, Mr. Macaulay?  10 MR. MACAULAY:  I'll consider that over the adjournment, my lord,  11 if I may.  12 THE COURT:  We'll resume then at ten o'clock tomorrow morning.  13 THE REGISTRAR:  Order in court.  Court will adjourn until 10:00  14 a.m..  15  16        (PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED TO JUNE 29, 1988 AT 10:00 a.m.)  17  18 I hereby certify the foregoing to be  19 a true and accurate transcript of the  20 proceedings herein to the best of my  21 skill and ability.  22  23  24  25 Peri McHale, Official Reporter  2 6 UNITED REPORTING SERVICE LTD.  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47 7400  N. Sterritt (for Plaintiffs)  Cross-exam by Mr. Goldie  on Qualifications  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20  21  22  23  24  25  26  27  28  29  30  31  32  33  34  35  36  37  38  39  40  41  42  43  44  45  46  47


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